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Insider Secrets from The Title Guy: Why Home Titles MatterHome titles—what you don't know CAN cost you!This is a CAN'T MISS episode if you want to understand home titles, avoid costly mistakes, and protect your investment! EPISODE 42 | Home Design Podcast: Sit down with Glenn Asher, The Title Guy, to break down everything you need to know about home titlesFrom uncovering the most common title issues that can delay or derail a sale to discussing title fraud prevention, Glenn provides expert knowledge on what every homeowner, buyer, and investor should know before making a move.We hope this episode gives you the knowledge you need to navigate real estate transactions with confidence!
Last night's live was a little different as I was live from the horse show in Del Mar. Today I'm riding the PSG and the I1 on Saturday so that's super exciting!This week's YouTube video was on the walk, my biggest tip is don't forget to practice it!I also introduced my new puppy Messi, so let me know if you have any potty training tips!I have a brand new Canter Checklist, you can download it for free here.
The HIMSS Global Conference brings together healthcare professionals, technology providers, and industry leaders to discuss the most pressing challenges in healthcare. One of the key conversations this year focused on security, risk management, and the role of HITRUST in ensuring trust across the healthcare ecosystem.HITRUST's Expanding Role in Healthcare SecurityRyan Patrick, VP of Adoption at HITRUST, joined the discussion to share insights from the conference floor. One of the most striking takeaways was the sheer scale of engagement—attendance at HIMSS was at an all-time high, reflecting a growing focus on healthcare security and compliance. Organizations across the industry are looking for solutions that support innovation while maintaining security, and HITRUST is at the center of those conversations.A common misconception about HITRUST is that it only provides a single, rigorous cybersecurity assessment. Patrick clarified that HITRUST now offers a tiered approach, including the E1 (entry-level), I1 (intermediate), and R2 (comprehensive) assessments, allowing organizations to align their security and compliance efforts with their level of maturity. The E1 assessment, in particular, has gained rapid adoption as organizations look for a scalable way to demonstrate security and compliance without the complexity of a full certification process.The Role of HITRUST in Third-Party Risk ManagementWith interoperability becoming a priority in healthcare, third-party risk management is a growing concern. Many healthcare organizations work with hundreds—if not thousands—of vendors, and ensuring security across this extended network is critical. Patrick emphasized that HITRUST is not just a cybersecurity framework but a tool for managing third-party risk at scale. HITRUST assessments provide structured, standardized data that can be integrated into risk management platforms, allowing organizations to evaluate their vendors with greater efficiency and confidence.As discussions around security and compliance continue, Patrick encourages healthcare organizations to educate themselves on the full range of HITRUST offerings. Whether an organization is starting its security journey or looking to optimize third-party risk management, HITRUST provides a structured path to achieving trust and resilience.Learn more about HITRUST: https://itspm.ag/itsphitwebNote: This story contains promotional content. Learn more.Guest: Ryan Patrick, Vice President of Adoption at HITRUST | On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryan-patrick-3699117a/Hosts:Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber] | On ITSPmagazine: https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martinMarco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast & Audio Signals Podcast | On ITSPmagazine: https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli____________________________This Episode's SponsorsLearn more and catch more stories from HITRUST: https://itspm.ag/itsphitweb____________________________ResourcesLearn more and catch more stories from HIMSS 2025 coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/himss-2025-health-technology-and-cybersecurity-event-coverage-las-vegasHITRUST 2025 Trust Report: https://itspm.ag/hitrusz49c____________________________Catch all of our event coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/on-locationTo see and hear more Redefining CyberSecurity content on ITSPmagazine, visit: https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-cybersecurity-podcastTo see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcastWant to tell your Brand Story Briefing as part of our event coverage? Learn More
Welcome to Episode 150 of The Scale Model Podcast Sponsored by CultTVMan and Sean's Custom Model Tools HostsStuartTerryGeoffThanks to our latest Patreon and Buy Me a Coffee Supporters:Check out our What We Like page for lists of what we like. ***************************************LATEST NEWSAviation artist Roy Huxley passed away over the weekend 48 hour buildThe 48in48 Challenge, spearheaded by James Skiffins and the Model Officers Mess Facebook group, is a globally celebrated scale modelling event with a mission: to bring together the modelling community while raising funds for Models for Heroes, a UK-based charity supporting the mental health of veterans and first responders through the therapeutic benefits of scale modelling. This year, the event is set to kick off on Friday 14th March 2025, promising 48 hours of camaraderie, creativity, and charity.www.48-48.org Scale Colors being purchased by Squadron 2 stories from Hobby Merchandiser MagazineBandai Raises Prices; Opens New FactoryRetail prices for models and collectibles from the popular anime“Mobile Suit Gundam,” including Gundam plastic models (or gunpla), will progressively increase from April 2025, major toymaker BandaiSpirits Co. announced. Model Kit Market Set To Grow Through 2028The global hobby model kits market is estimated to grow by 3.65%, or $219 million, through 2028, according to research firm Technavio.The growing disposable income of the middle-class population is driving market growth, along with the growth in 3D printing.IPMS Canada Website SNAFU resolved - membership renewals didn't work in mid January - you could get to paying by PayPal but nothing would happen. The issue has been resolved, so go ahead and renew/start your membership!IPMS 2024 Nationals Numbers releasedNumbers from the 2024 IPMS National Convention-1012 Members attended the convention-There were 92 different vendors and 403 tables-764 people bought one day passes (these are family passes, so they represent a larger number of people)-2667 Models were entered in the contest-Over 600 models were on display at our first “Tiger Meet”. Some of those models were entered in the contest on FridayAirfix 2025 range launchNew tool items.1/144 SLS Artemis Rocket1/72 B-24D Liberator1/72 Westland Wessex HC.21/48 SEPECAT Jaguar GR.1/GR.1A1/48 Fairey Gannet COD.41/48 Spitfire Mk.IXe1/48 Spitfire TR.91/35 Ferret Scout Car Mk.I1/35 Alvis FV622 Stalwart Mk.2 Vintage classic announcements.1/72 Puma HC.1 (1973)1/72 Sopwith Pup (1973)1/72 SEPECAT Jaguar (1970)1/72 German E Boat (1975)1/72 Vosper M.T.B (1972)1/72 Lockheed Hudson (1963!!)1/144 Boeing 314 Clipper (1967)1/72 RAF Rescue Boat (1978) ***************************************MAILBAGWe want to hear from you! Let us know if you have any comments or suggestions scalemodelpodcast@gmail.com.***************************************LATEST HOBBY ANNOUNCEMENTSBridge for SNW Enterprise, by ParagrafixModeling Master File: How to Master Low Visibility Modern Aircraft by John Chung (Scale Scriber)Two tracked AFV's from Hobbyboss in February1/35 Telsa Tank from Border ModelsWWII German Motorcycle Zundapp KS750S-3B Viking Anti-Submarine Aircraft in 1/48 and 1/32 from TrumpeterCaproni Ca.3 Final Renders in 1/32Airscale is working on a 3D-printed Boulton Paul Mk.l in 1:32 scale.A preview of Italeri's newest itemsTrumpeter FebruaryAmmo has a weathering pencil system.What's new at Scalemates.com ***************************************SPONSOR AD #1Cult TV Man***************************************WHAT'S ON THE BENCHStuart - Work continues slowly on the Land Rover, I finished several Comstar battlemechs. Geoff - IPMS London member George Wray and I were tagged to build a couple of IAR80 review models from IBG in Poland - George isn't renovating a house, so his review was published in the latest IPMS Canada RT online magazine this month. His work is excellent, so I've been pushing myself to finish my version for the next issue. It's a beautiful kit - maybe what Wingnut Wings would do if they did 1/72 WW2 Romanian fighters… Terry - Work continues apace on the Moosaroo project. Mocking up the shadowbox has shown me a couple of things I'll need to change. Groundwork looks good so far, but a lot left to do. I need to get into the airbrush booth for the sub and some other items but will wait until it warms up a little. Some progress on both the Destroid Phalanx, which should be done in a short while and the Claude which is just in the cockpit phase now. Plenty of shelf queens waiting for some attention once bench space is available.***************************************WHAT WE ARE READINGStuart - Return of the King, On Terry's recommendation read and finished Stephen Baxter's Voyage,Geoff - Empire of the Summer Moon, by S.C. Gwynn - an excellent book about the history and destruction of the Comanche Nation in the southwest, centering around the remarkable last major Comanche leader, Quanah Parker. Apparently, it's been picked up for a movie adaptation. Highly recommended. Also, “The Skystone” by Jack Whyte, the first in a three volume series about the fictional “true” story behind the Arthurian legend. Hint: the core things happened in the period after the collapse of Roman rule in Britain as it slid into the dark ages, but no magic or mysticism- just events that were elaborated on over time until the myth we know today solidified. My son in law recommended it ages ago and I am pretty sure I read it before, but it's very good and hard to put down Terry: Finished Voyage by Steven Baxter, a very nice conjectural fiction about NASA going to Mars, and all the work and drama therein. I started his next book, Titan. The central conceit here is that Cassini/Huygens found life on Titan. I'm just in the early pages so it's all place setting at this point. Also reading the Bleach Manga, now that it's available in English for a decent price.***************************************SPONSOR AD #2Seans Custom Model Tools***************************************THINGS WE'VE SEENWilliam Adair 1/144 German WWI Fighter1/32 scratchbuilt Halifax IPMS Bolton, UKModel Airplane Maker's 2025 wish list.WW2 ammo color set***************************************THE LAST WORDFor more modelling podcast goodness, check out other modelling podcasts at modelpodcasts.comPlease leave us a positive review if you enjoy what we're doing!Check us out: FaceBook, YouTube, and our very own website. Unboxings are available at http://blackfire.ca/We also have merchandise now. Check it out on Redbubble
Agradece a este podcast tantas horas de entretenimiento y disfruta de episodios exclusivos como éste. ¡Apóyale en iVoox! El Kiwi y el Moa eran dos pequeños buques de patrulla, de unas 500 toneladas y ligeramente artillados, ambos pertenecientes a la armada de Nueva Zelanda, el 29 de enero de 1943 se enfrentaron al I1, submarino japonés de 2150 toneladas y libraron un combate épico que os contamos Esaú Rodríguez y Sergio Murata, otro de esos episodios desconocidos, con personajes pintorescos que nos dan idea de que las guerras no siempre son grandes batallas y que detrás de estas, hay siempre personas. Musica intro: Fallen Soldier,licencia gratuita, de Biz Baz Estudio Licencia Creative Commons Fuentes: https://nzhistory.govt.nz/war/bird-class-minesweepers/pocket-corvettes https://www.navygeneralboard.com/david-and-goliath-in-the-solomons-the-pocket-corvettes-kiwi-and-moa-vs-i-1/ Audios y música: Portada : Sergio Murata Productor: Sergio Murata Director /Colaborador: Sergio Murata Espero que os guste y os animo a suscribiros, dar likes, y compartir en redes sociales y a seguirnos por facebook y/o twitter. Recordad que esta disponible la opción de Suscriptor Fan , donde podréis acceder a programas en exclusiva. Podéis opinar a través de ivoox, en twitter @Niebladeguerra1 y ver el material adicional a través de facebook https://www.facebook.com/sergio.murata.77 o por mail a niebladeguerraprograma@hotmail.com Telegram Si quieres acceder a él sigue este enlace https://t.me/niebladeguerra Además tenemos un grupo de conversación, donde otros compañeros, podcaster ,colaboradores y yo, tratamos temas diversos de historia, algún pequeño juego y lo que sea, siempre que sea serio y sin ofensas ni bobadas. Si te interesa entrar , a través del canal de Niebla de Guerra en Telegram, podrás acceder al grupo. También podrás a través de este enlace (O eso creo ) https://t.me/joinchat/Jw1FyBNQPOZtEKjgkh8vXg NUEVO CANAL DE YOUTUBE https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaUjlWkD8GPoq7HnuQGzxfw/featured?view_as=subscriber BLOGS AMIGOS https://www.davidlopezcabia.es/ con el escritor de novela bélica David López Cabia https://www.eurasia1945.com/ Del escritor e historiador, Rubén Villamor Algunos podcast amigos LA BIBLIOTECA DE LA HISTORIA https://www.ivoox.com/biblioteca-de-la-historia_sq_f1566125_1 Escucha el episodio completo en la app de iVoox, o descubre todo el catálogo de iVoox Originals
Tatters continues in her attempt to explore the crashed casino, but something seems to be wrong with her magic, something that risks the release of unspeakable horrors. And even if she does locate her quarry, will the dread vampire lord prove any less deadly? Links Transcript: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EzRMeHZ2o1ZaV0h9gkebRpjHDL-Gn7CuNUt_LtijKsQ/edit?usp=sharing All music is royalty-free, and courtesy of Pixabay: https://pixabay.com/music/ and Slipstream https://slip.stream/ Email TheLoneAdv@gmail.com Podbean https://theloneadventurer.podbean.com/ Blog https://carlillustration.wordpress.com/ Chasing Adventure: https://chasingadventuregame.com/ Perchance TLA Random event Oracle: https://perchance.org/tla-randomevent Perchance TLA Tatters Ritual Generator:https://perchance.org/tla-tatters-ritual-generator Perchance TLA Scene Tester: https://perchance.org/tla-scenetester Perchance TLA OCEANIC NPC Behaviour Emulator: https://perchance.org/tla-oceanic Mechanics Scene 1 (Intro scene) Chaos Factor: 8 Scene Description: Teleport to safety Scene Test: expected Class Move: Evoke a Spell When you unleash your magical talents, choose a Spell you know and roll+SPELL. Teleport to safety: 4+3+2=9 On a 7-9 the Spell is still successful but choose one consequence from the list below. The Spell's Risk manifests as well. The Spell's magic drains you. You take -1 Ongoing to Evoke Spells until you next Settle In. Using it puts you in danger or draws unwanted attention, the GM will say how. Tatters flees further into the Mustang's interior Scene 2 Chaos Factor 7 Scene Description: Tracking down Tortemus Scene Test: Altered GM Move: Set Up an Immediate Danger Mythic 2 Descriptor and Focus: Threateningly Normal The empty corridors are alive with magical potential energy. Simple Q (Likely): Does this feel like Tortemus' concealing magic? Yes Adventure Move: Compel When you use favor, payment, promises, or threats to get someone to do something, say what you want them to do (or not to do) and roll+CHA. She seeks a parlay. She offers information, and potentially an alliance. 5+3+2=10 If they are an NPC, on a 10+ they'll do what you want. Scene 3 Chaos Factor 6 Scene Description: negotiating with Tortemus Scene Test: Expected Tortemus OCEANIC profile: O5,C4,E3,A2,N4,I1,3,C1 NPC Response: Conscientiousness, Extroversion, Core Disposition (planning, ruthlessness and fury) Tortemus intends a counter-attack. Complex Q: How? The event relates to a Starforged Descriptor and Focus: Confined Ruins Tortemus means to destroy the Mustang, and the Blues along with it. Simple Q: Can he teleport to the Night Queen's Shadow? Yes Simple Q: Can he take his vampire troops with him? Yes Peripheral Move: End of Session At the end of each session, answer the following questions as a group: Did we discover something new and important about the world or characters? 1XP Did we newly visit or significantly alter a memorable location? 1XP Did we overcome a notable obstacle, enemy, or challenge? For each “yes” answer, everyone gains 1 XP. Lastly, gain 1 XP if you accomplished your Drive. 1XP
ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS CB2024-189: A Resolution Approving the Appointment of Joshua Bubniak to the Citizen Review Subcommittee of the Human Relations Commission in the City of Champaign CB2024-190: A Resolution Approving a Memorandum of Understanding with the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, (AFSCME) Local 1960 CB2024-191: A Resolution Authorizing the City Manager to Execute Retention Incentive Payment Agreements with Telecommunicator Supervisors and Substitute Telecommunicators and Approving Standard Retention Incentive Payment Agreements for Full-Time and Part-Time Non-Bargaining Unit Employees CB2024-192: A Resolution Approving the Final Plat of Lot 103 of Stamey Subdivision No. 2 CB2024-193: An Ordinance Amending the Zoning Map of the City of Champaign to Rezone Properties Within the University of Illinois Research Park from the CO, Commercial Office Zoning District to the I1, Light Industrial Zoning District CB2024-194: A Resolution Accepting a Bid and Authorizing the City Manager to Execute an Agreement for the 2025 Tree and Stump Removal Project CB2024-195: A Resolution Authorizing the Purchase of Two Street Sweepers and Declaring Two Street Sweepers as Surplus Property CB2024-196: A Resolution Approving a Professional Services Agreement with Brubaker and Associates, Inc., for the City's Municipal Electric Aggregation Program CB2024-197: A Resolution Appointing a City Manager and Authorizing the Mayor to Execute an Employment Agreement for City Manager STUDY SESSION Request for Honorary Street Name: Daniyjah D. Staple
In this Brand Story episode, Sean Martin brings together the team from HITRUST, Robert Booker and Blake Sutherland, to discuss the topic of cyber insurance and its current state in the industry. Both guests bring a wealth of experience and insight, with Robert Booker overseeing strategy, research, and innovation at HITRUST, and Blake Sutherland serving as the EVP of Market Engagement.A significant portion of the discussion centers around the role of cyber insurance in today's business environment. Cyber insurance is not just a safety net but a critical aspect of a complete risk management strategy. As Robert Booker points out, it's an essential service, historically used to cover residual risk after companies have applied their own security measures. However, the market has changed considerably, with new capabilities and approaches evolving over the past several years, making it a dynamic area.Blake Sutherland further elaborates on the issues that organizations face in acquiring cyber insurance today. The process is often cumbersome, involving extensive questionnaires and varied requirements from different underwriters. This can be particularly challenging for mid-market companies that may lack the internal resources to manage these complexities.The episode highlights that HITRUST is addressing these challenges with their R2 certification, which provides an objective, quantifiable measure of an organization's cybersecurity posture. This certification helps companies not only in fortifying their own security but also in streamlining the insurance acquisition process by offering a standardized measure that underwriters can rely on. According to Robert Booker, this quantified approach can make a significant difference, offering confidence to both the insured and the insurer.Another important aspect discussed is the role of brokerage in this process. Brokers traditionally guide companies through the insurance process, and an R2 certification from HITRUST can greatly assist them in securing better terms and conditions, as it is recognized as a testament to a company's robust security posture. This can also translate into potentially lower premiums and more reliable coverage, addressing one of the largest pain points in securing cyber insurance.The HITRUST Shared Risk Facility is made available exclusively through licensed brokers and can be accessed by any company holding an R2 certification, with plans to extend to I1 and E1 levels in the future. This facility aims to simplify the process, reduce the administrative burden on companies, and provide greater reliability in the insurance coverage.The episode wraps up with an invitation for organizations, brokers, and underwriters to engage with HITRUST to explore these innovative solutions. It's a call to improve the overall confidence in the insurance landscape through verified, independent measures of cybersecurity maturity, ultimately benefiting all parties involved in the cyber insurance ecosystem.Explore how HITRUST's R2 certification can enhance your organization's cybersecurity posture and streamline your cyber insurance process.Learn more about HITRUST: https://itspm.ag/itsphitwebNote: This story contains promotional content. Learn more.Guests: Blake Sutherland, EVP Market Adoption, HITRUST [@HITRUST]On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/blake-sutherland-38854a/Robert Booker, Chief Strategy Officer, HITRUST [@HITRUST]On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertbooker/ResourcesHITRUST 2024 Trust Report: https://itspm.ag/hitrusi2itLearn more and catch more stories from HITRUST: https://www.itspmagazine.com/directory/hitrustView all of our HITRUST Collaborate 2024 coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/hitrust-collaborate-2024-information-risk-management-and-compliance-event-coverage-frisco-texasAre you interested in telling your story?https://www.itspmagazine.com/telling-your-story
In this Brand Story episode, Sean Martin brings together the team from HITRUST, Robert Booker and Blake Sutherland, to discuss the topic of cyber insurance and its current state in the industry. Both guests bring a wealth of experience and insight, with Robert Booker overseeing strategy, research, and innovation at HITRUST, and Blake Sutherland serving as the EVP of Market Engagement.A significant portion of the discussion centers around the role of cyber insurance in today's business environment. Cyber insurance is not just a safety net but a critical aspect of a complete risk management strategy. As Robert Booker points out, it's an essential service, historically used to cover residual risk after companies have applied their own security measures. However, the market has changed considerably, with new capabilities and approaches evolving over the past several years, making it a dynamic area.Blake Sutherland further elaborates on the issues that organizations face in acquiring cyber insurance today. The process is often cumbersome, involving extensive questionnaires and varied requirements from different underwriters. This can be particularly challenging for mid-market companies that may lack the internal resources to manage these complexities.The episode highlights that HITRUST is addressing these challenges with their R2 certification, which provides an objective, quantifiable measure of an organization's cybersecurity posture. This certification helps companies not only in fortifying their own security but also in streamlining the insurance acquisition process by offering a standardized measure that underwriters can rely on. According to Robert Booker, this quantified approach can make a significant difference, offering confidence to both the insured and the insurer.Another important aspect discussed is the role of brokerage in this process. Brokers traditionally guide companies through the insurance process, and an R2 certification from HITRUST can greatly assist them in securing better terms and conditions, as it is recognized as a testament to a company's robust security posture. This can also translate into potentially lower premiums and more reliable coverage, addressing one of the largest pain points in securing cyber insurance.The HITRUST Shared Risk Facility is made available exclusively through licensed brokers and can be accessed by any company holding an R2 certification, with plans to extend to I1 and E1 levels in the future. This facility aims to simplify the process, reduce the administrative burden on companies, and provide greater reliability in the insurance coverage.The episode wraps up with an invitation for organizations, brokers, and underwriters to engage with HITRUST to explore these innovative solutions. It's a call to improve the overall confidence in the insurance landscape through verified, independent measures of cybersecurity maturity, ultimately benefiting all parties involved in the cyber insurance ecosystem.Explore how HITRUST's R2 certification can enhance your organization's cybersecurity posture and streamline your cyber insurance process.Learn more about HITRUST: https://itspm.ag/itsphitwebNote: This story contains promotional content. Learn more.Guests: Blake Sutherland, EVP Market Adoption, HITRUST [@HITRUST]On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/blake-sutherland-38854a/Robert Booker, Chief Strategy Officer, HITRUST [@HITRUST]On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertbooker/ResourcesHITRUST 2024 Trust Report: https://itspm.ag/hitrusi2itLearn more and catch more stories from HITRUST: https://www.itspmagazine.com/directory/hitrustView all of our HITRUST Collaborate 2024 coverage: https://www.itspmagazine.com/hitrust-collaborate-2024-information-risk-management-and-compliance-event-coverage-frisco-texasAre you interested in telling your story?https://www.itspmagazine.com/telling-your-story
In this Jive Talk I shall discuss the findings presented in the preprint of the new paper from McColl and colleagues entitled ‘Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages'. What does it tell us about where Germanic has its roots, how it spread in the Bronze Age, Iron Age and Migration era? How Germanic were the Lombards and Ostrogoths? Lots of new information is revealed. A huge breakthrough in Germanic studies!End music: Ansuz Society - Fuþorc Please support me: https://linktr.ee/SurvivetheJive
ORDINANCES AND RESOLUTIONS CB2023-195: A Resolution Authorizing the City Manager to Execute Subrecipient Agreements with Various Community Organizations CB2023-196/197: An Ordinance Levying the Annual Taxes for General Purposes in the City of Champaign, Illinois for the Fiscal Year Beginning July 1, 2023, and Ending June 30, 2024; Municipal Electric Aggregation CB2023-198: An Ordinance Regarding Paid Leave for City of Champaign Employees CB2023-199: An Ordinance Amending Sections 2-36, 2-37, 2-38, 2-39, 2-40, and 2-41 of the Champaign Municipal Code, 1985 Providing for New City Council Election Districts CB2023-200: A Resolution Authorizing an Agreement with Elrod Friedman for Property Maintenance Code Enforcement Legal Services CB2023-201/202: A Resolution Approving a Grant Agreement with the Illinois Housing Development Authority for the Homeowner Assistance Fund Home Repair Program; An Ordinance Amending the Annual Budget for the Neighborhood Development Fund CB2023-203: An Ordinance Amending the Zoning Map of the City of Champaign to Rezone 3401 Boardwalk Drive from the CG, Commercial General Zoning District to the I1, Light Industrial Zoning District CB2023-204: An Ordinance Amending Various Sections of Articles III and IV of the Champaign Municipal Code, 1985, as Amended CB2023-205: A Resolution Approving a Contract for Professional Services with Lamar Johnson Collaborative, LLC CB2023-206: A Resolution to Grant a Major Variation CB2023-207: A Resolution Accepting a Bid and Authorizing the City Manager to Execute an Agreement for the 2024 Tree and Stump Removal Project STUDY SESSION Municipal Electric Aggregation
Capt'n Amy is a Systems Engineer Supervisor for NASA at the Kennedy Space Center. Her mission is to make sure that the facilities are always mission ready. Her team also provides support for launch operations. In this episode, Amy takes us through her journey from studying electrical engineering in college and designing sprinkler systems to becoming a supervisor at NASA. 00:00 Introduction 01:23 What is Amy Doing Today? 09:55 First Memory of a Computer13:55 Interests in High School18:00 Starting University21:10 Designing Sprinkler Systems32:26 Applying to NASA38:30 First Experiences at NASA42:30 Telemetry in the Control Room48:00 Newfound Excitement at NASA54:50 Anyone can Work at NASA59:00 Thoughts on A.I1:02:40 Going Back to College1:08:30 Contact InfoConnect with Amy: Twitter: https://twitter.com/CaptnAmyLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amy-lendian/Mentioned in today's episode:NASA: https://www.nasa.gov/Want more from Ardan Labs? You can learn Go, Kubernetes, Docker & more through our video training, live events, or through our blog!Online Courses : https://ardanlabs.com/education/ Live Events : https://www.ardanlabs.com/live-training-events/ Blog : https://www.ardanlabs.com/blog Github : https://github.com/ardanlabs
Ian Molee is a Software Developer at a cryptocurrency firm called Falcon X. His day to day languages include Python and Go with various other languages mixed in. In this episode, Ian takes us through his extensive journey through various companies in the tech industry and his experiences along the way. 00:00 Introduction 03:23 What is Ian Doing Today? 14:46 Interests in High School22:37 Going to University / Value of a Degree35:45 Joining the Workforce / First Tech Jobs48:00 Moving to New Mexico57:00 Joining Amazon 59:45 Moving to Seattle1:10:00 Leaving Amazon / Other Jobs1:20:00 Learning Go 1:24:00 Highlights of the Industry1:31:20 Thoughts on A.I1:39:10 Contact InfoConnect with Ian: Twitter: https://twitter.com/ianfooMentioned in today's episode:Falcon X : https://falconx.io/Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Want more from Ardan Labs? You can learn Go, Kubernetes, Docker & more through our video training, live events, or through our blog!Online Courses : https://ardanlabs.com/education/ Live Events : https://www.ardanlabs.com/live-training-events/ Blog : https://www.ardanlabs.com/blog Github : https://github.com/ardanlabs
André Eriksson is the CEO and Founder of Encore. Encore is a startup building the next generation platform for rapid backend development in Go. In this episode, André takes us through his journey from creating interface mods for World of Warcraft to becoming a Senior Software Engineer at Spotify and finally running his own company.00:00 Introduction 03:15 What is André Doing Today? 12:50 First Memory with a Computer24:27 Interests / Projects in Highschool26:40 Studying Computer Science in University37:26 Deciding to Join The Workforce47:00 Discovering Go at Spotify58:45 First Go Project with Utility1:01:50 Leaving Spotify for Encore1:05:40 The Next Steps for Encore1:13:20 Revenue Model with Open Source1:16:05 Thoughts on Languge Models and A.I1:24:14 Contact Info Connect with André: Twitter: André Eriksson (@_eandre) / TwitterTwitterhttps://twitter.com › _eandreEncore : https://encore.dev/Mentioned in today's episode:Encore : https://encore.dev/Spotify : https://open.spotify.com/André's Talk : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pjz9WrXeOW0Want more from Ardan Labs? You can learn Go, Kubernetes, Docker & more through our video training, live events, or through our blog!Online Courses : https://ardanlabs.com/education/ Live Events : https://www.ardanlabs.com/live-training-events/ Blog : https://www.ardanlabs.com/blog Github : https://github.com/ardanlabs
Welcome to another episode of the Pearls of Wisdom Podcast! I'm thrilled to introduce our guest for today, Christy Davidson, an RDI Diamond expert with an impressive 23 years of experience in the retail jewelry industry. Get ready for an exciting discussion as Christy tells us about the exclusive “Rare and Forever Natural Diamonds” program by RDI. This program sets RDI apart by carefully screening rough diamonds for any BGM hues before the faceting and cutting. The result? Stunning diamonds that sparkle brilliantly without any color hindrance. But that's not all! RDI takes it further by employing AI technology to grade their diamonds. This advanced intelligent grading system accurately and precisely grades each diamond, making it the most advanced grading system available. And here's the fascinating part: the more diamonds the system grades, the better it becomes, continuously improving its accuracy. Now, let's talk about the qualities of the Rare and Forever Natural Diamonds. RDI offers a wide range of options, from I1 clarity up to VVS clarity and from K color all the way up to D color. While the price may be around 3% higher than typical GIA stones or other graded diamonds, RDI believes in empowering jewelers to decide where they want to be in terms of pricing and competitiveness. During our conversation, Christy also recounted when she presented a J-colored diamond from RDI's collection to jewelers without mentioning its color or clarity. Most of them mistook it for a G or H color diamond! This is a testament to the exceptional quality of RDI's diamonds. Their J-color diamonds radiate brightness and beauty without any noticeable yellow hue, surprising even experienced professionals. So, if you're searching for exquisite, natural diamonds that deliver unparalleled sparkle and beauty, RDI Diamonds and their Rare and Forever Natural Diamonds program are here for you. Stay tuned as we explore this topic and get your own diamond journey started! Brought to you by: Southern Jewelry News: https://southernjewelrynews.com/ Jewelry Store Marketers: https://jewelrystoremarketers.com/ Learn more about the Pearls of Wisdom Jewelry Podcast https://southernjewelrynews.com/podcast Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform: • Apple Podcast = https://podcastsconnect.apple.com/my.-.. • Amazon Music/Audible = https://www.audible.com/pd/Pearls-of.-.. • iHeartRadio = https://www.iheart.com/podcast/263-pe... • Spotify = https://open.spotify.com/show/6IU1OHw... • Google Podcast = https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0...
Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech, getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand2 (15s):It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (30s):How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your1 (35s):New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,2 (39s):Congratulations.1 (40s):Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.1 (1m 20s):Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.2 (1m 29s):They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,1 (1m 31s):Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.1 (2m 25s):And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.1 (3m 6s):I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.2 (3m 10s):Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?2 (3m 52s):You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.1 (3m 57s):That's amazing. Super.2 (4m 0s):So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,1 (4m 11s):I was there,2 (4m 13s):Fyi. Yes, you were1 (4m 15s):The first one, right? For your first one.2 (4m 16s):The first one.1 (4m 18s):Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.2 (4m 50s):Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.2 (5m 30s):That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.1 (6m 8s):Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.1 (6m 50s):I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked2 (7m 15s):It could've worked it1 (7m 17s):All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.2 (7m 35s):Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.2 (8m 16s):And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.1 (8m 21s):And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.1 (9m 14s):And done. What about you? What about you?2 (9m 17s):I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,1 (9m 52s):So Right.2 (9m 53s):They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.2 (10m 33s):Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.2 (11m 20s):I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got1 (11m 51s):That job because of2 (11m 52s):The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.2 (12m 34s):Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless1 (12m 58s):To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.1 (13m 39s):Period. You're so2 (13m 41s):To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.1 (14m 20s):No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.2 (14m 56s):Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.1 (15m 35s):And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,2 (15m 48s):This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.1 (16m 29s):I've never,2 (16m 30s):Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's1 (16m 50s):So cool.2 (16m 51s):Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,1 (17m 7s):The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.1 (17m 47s):It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.1 (18m 29s):I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.1 (19m 13s):That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.1 (19m 53s):So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.2 (20m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.2 (20m 56s):And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.2 (21m 37s):You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.2 (22m 18s):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.1 (22m 34s):Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.1 (23m 15s):It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.1 (23m 57s):That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,2 (24m 9s):Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.1 (24m 25s):Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.1 (25m 8s):That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.2 (25m 35s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.3 (26m 8s):Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?2 (26m 11s):Yes, you sound great. You sound1 (26m 13s):Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a2 (26m 17s):Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.3 (26m 28s):Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was2 (26m 31s):It usc? Did you go to3 (26m 32s):Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So1 (26m 36s):We just assumed you went there, but where did you go3 (26m 38s):To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?1 (26m 46s):In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So3 (26m 48s):Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well1 (26m 53s):I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,3 (26m 58s):Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What1 (27m 1s):The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.3 (27m 7s):Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.1 (27m 15s):Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.3 (27m 20s):Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh1 (27m 24s):My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,3 (27m 28s):It's1 (27m 28s):Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these3 (27m 34s):Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together1 (28m 4s):That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,3 (28m 34s):What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,1 (28m 54s):In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,3 (29m 4s):Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.1 (29m 7s):Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,3 (29m 13s):There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.1 (29m 43s):This,2 (29m 44s):And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,3 (30m 4s):You2 (30m 4s):Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.3 (30m 10s):So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.3 (30m 52s):Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I1 (30m 54s):Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.3 (30m 56s):And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,1 (30m 60s):I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name3 (31m 7s):At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a1 (31m 15s):While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.3 (31m 18s):Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.1 (31m 59s):Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?3 (32m 19s):So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,1 (32m 43s):You're a hilarious Jesuit.3 (32m 45s):Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,1 (33m 12s):What the fuck is that?3 (33m 14s):Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.3 (33m 55s):And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I1 (33m 60s):Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so3 (34m 4s):Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're1 (34m 20s):Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.3 (34m 23s):Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,1 (34m 39s):I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so3 (34m 51s):Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge1 (35m 18s):Theater. Fyi. Right,3 (35m 20s):Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.3 (36m 3s):Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,1 (36m 21s):Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things3 (36m 50s):Gut, Yeah. Never1 (36m 51s):Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change3 (37m 2s):Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,2 (37m 16s):Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you3 (37m 44s):Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.1 (38m 12s):Super white. Super white. Yeah.3 (38m 14s):So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and1 (38m 37s):Talented,3 (38m 38s):You couldn't,1 (38m 39s):You3 (38m 39s):Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,1 (39m 12s):Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.1 (39m 58s):I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?3 (40m 23s):It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,1 (40m 32s):Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?3 (40m 54s):So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.3 (41m 34s):I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.3 (42m 18s):I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.1 (42m 24s):They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,3 (42m 29s):Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.1 (42m 42s):Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent3 (42m 45s):Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,1 (42m 53s):Rodney,3 (42m 55s):Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?1 (42m 57s):I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,3 (42m 59s):Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.1 (43m 2s):Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?3 (43m 8s):I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.1 (43m 11s):Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.3 (43m 17s):Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.1 (43m 25s):Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.3 (43m 35s):I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,1 (43m 47s):We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.3 (43m 52s):And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So1 (43m 55s):You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (43m 57s):Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at1 (44m 12s):Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,3 (44m 15s):I'm sorry, what was that?1 (44m 16s):R i p, Victory Gardens.3 (44m 17s):Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,1 (44m 30s):Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,3 (44m 38s):It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.3 (45m 19s):I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went1 (45m 32s):To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,2 (46m 9s):Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.3 (46m 29s):Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That2 (46m 53s):Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.3 (47m 8s):Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.1 (47m 18s):The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.3 (47m 36s):Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.1 (48m 25s):Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,3 (48m 35s):That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,1 (48m 46s):I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it3 (48m 50s):Was because they're in.1 (48m 51s):Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And3 (49m 3s):This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,1 (49m 7s):Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.3 (49m 11s):No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.3 (49m 53s):But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I1 (50m 11s):Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and3 (50m 20s):Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that1 (50m 43s):Of an2 (50m 45s):Yeah know?3 (50m 46s):I mean,2 (50m 47s):So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing3 (50m 55s):Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.2 (51m 19s):Yeah.1 (51m 20s):We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,2 (51m 23s):Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.3 (51m 26s):He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.2 (51m 30s):That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?2 (52m 14s):Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?3 (52m 18s):Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?3 (53m 2s):We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.3 (53m 43s):You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.3 (54m 23s):And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.2 (54m 31s):Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?3 (55m 3s):I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.3 (55m 43s):And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from1 (56m 25s):The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.1 (57m 6s):And I'm3 (57m 7s):Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.2 (57m 12s):Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of1 (57m 16s):Our, you3 (57m 17s):Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,1 (57m 38s):Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,3 (57m 42s):You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.1 (58m 14s):We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.1 (58m 57s):So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.3 (59m 1s):Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.3 (59m 45s):Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.1 (1h 0m 6s):How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For3 (1h 0m 10s):Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it1 (1h 0m 18s):Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you3 (1h 0m 23s):Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.1 (1h 0m 25s):Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super3 (1h 0m 36s):Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.3 (1h 1m 17s):It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to l
Intro: Nasty neighbors in the Great Unraveling, The Rest MovementLet Me Run This By You: RejectionInterview: We talk to Tina Huang about soap opera acting, LaGuardia High School, the Playwrights Horizon program at Tisch, breaking down barriers for Asian actors, Ammunition Theatre Company, Revenge Porn or the Story of a Body by Carla Ching, Bay Area Theatre, Pig Hunt, starting a fake management company, Word for Word Performing Arts Company, Intersection for the Arts, Campo Santo, Amy Tan, 1:1 Productions, Karla Mosley, Jeanne Sakata. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez this, and I'm Gina Pulice.2 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of2 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?0 (34s):You2 (35s):Part of the building.1 (36s):Okay,2 (37s):Great. I don't know how it's gonna go.1 (41s):I mean, nobody knows how it's gonna go. It's unknowable until we know it.2 (45s):That is true. Good morning.1 (48s):Good. Margie,2 (50s):Your makeup looks amazing.1 (53s):Thank you. I'm not doing well, so I'm acting opposite. You know that skill?2 (59s):Oh, I know. Oh, that's like, I would say like 90% of adulthood. Anyway. What's happening? What, what is, if you wanna get into it, like what's the overall arching shittiness,1 (1m 10s):The overarching thing is just, Well, my neighbor I told you about.2 (1m 15s):Okay. And I just wanna put it out there and we'll get into the story, but I wanna put it out there that I, we are in, and we've said this before on the podcast in what I would call, and others like Gina would call probably similar, the great unraveling of our society. So it's like Rome is falling and I, I don't even say it, it sounds so cavalier the way I'm saying it, but I literally every day see evidence of the great unraveling of the American sweater. You know what I mean? Like it's coming out. Yes. Yeah. And we, it's okay. And I think one of those things is terrible neighbors, right? Like, people who are terrible are just getting more terrible.2 (1m 58s):So Gina has a neighbor that is very terrible.1 (2m 0s):Yeah. People just over the last several years do seem to feel way more comfortable just being extremely hor. Horrible. Horrible. So what, So this is the same neighbor that I've talked about before. And basically the deal with her is it's like she's obsessed with us. And, and like, what she doesn't understand is that we just work very hard to avoid her, you know, avoid interacting with her at any cause. I realized yesterday after she screamed at me that she has screamed at three fifths of my family members.1 (2m 40s):She only hasn't screamed at the nine year old and the, and the 14 year old. It's so insane. She's the one who Aaron was walking the dog and he had a flashlight and the dog was really young and he was trying to train him. So he kept like stopping and starting screens out. It's very disconcerting to be sitting in my living room and seeing a flashing light in front of my house, house. Like, he's like, I'm walking the dog. And the same one who when she was walking her dogs and he was walking our dog, she's like, It's not a great time to be walking your dog because her dogs are out of control. And she's yelled at my son a few times. Anyway, so what happened was, I walked the dog, I picked up the poop, I had the little baggy. If it's anybody else's house, I feel comfortable putting it in their trash2 (3m 23s):Can. Yeah. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I hate to tell you people, but poop is trash. There's like nowhere else to put it. So if you, if you are like not okay with pooping in your trash in a bag tied up, then you don't need to live in a society where there are dogs or where there are trash. Cause that's what it1 (3m 44s):Is, Honestly. Honestly. And it's like, I feel like a big part of what's driving all this bad behavior is just like, so much entitlement. Like, I'm entitled to have only my trash in my trash can. And it's like, okay, you've never lived in New York City, right? Cause you don't understand anything about cooperative living. And anybody, whether they live in my neighborhood or not, is welcome to put their poop2 (4m 6s):Back. Yeah, dude.1 (4m 7s):So I'm walking by and I'm talking on the phone stuff, somewhat distracted, and I see this trash can, and I go, I like reach out ever So tentatively, not tentatively, but like, I had barely started to reach out, realized it was their house didn't. And within milliseconds, she is out of her house screaming at me. And I hadn't even, you know, put the poop in there. And I, I'm talking about misbehavior. I mean, I've, I don't think I've ever done this except for like having road rage in the car where the other person really can't hear me. Like I just screamed every obscenity Yes.1 (4m 48s):In the book. I, I hope nobody else, I'm sure somebody else heard, but nobody, nobody's contacted me. And, you know, I'll say this, I'm much better about taking a beat. Like, I really wanted to blast her. I really wanted to like write a horrible message to her. I really want, and I, and I don't, I'm not refined enough, well enough evolved enough to like get right to like, what's, what's the need of the matter? But I have figured out that I should probably just not say anything until, until I've thought about it. I had a good long think she messaged me on social2 (5m 22s):Media. What1 (5m 23s):She said, I'm sorry, I accused you of throwing trash in our trash can. And I just blocked her. I'm just like, you know, I, I, I wanted, what I wanted to say is like, you have no idea how much time we spend trying to avoid you. You are unwell. You have yelled at three fifths of my family, like, never speak to me or my children ever again. Forget I exist. Forget I live right across the street from you because that's what I'm trying to do about you. So2 (5m 50s):Instead you just blocked her. Well listen that, that, because when you told me this story yesterday that she, the the reach out on social media hadn't happened. So now I'm like, I think what, before you said that part, I was gonna say like, I think our only recourse is what people do, which is start videotaping the insanity. And I'm not sure that's a really a good solution. Like, I think that like, oh sure, people put it on social media and then there's a laugh, but then we're really laughing at sort of the horribleness and the, and the mental illness of others. And it's their person and who knows how that's gonna negatively affect them or their job or their family. So I don't, like, I understand the, the urge to videotape everything, but I'm not sure that's really the answer with, with non-criminal behavior.2 (6m 40s):If it's a crime, then it's something else. But if it's just to embarrass or ashamed someone I, I'm, I have second thoughts about the videotaping now, but good for you for just blocking it. It, you know, what it is, is if to say, we are done with this, we are done with this.1 (6m 57s):Yeah. Yeah. And you lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Yes. And I don't really wanna bring that energy into my life. And sometimes, you know, if you get, if you're like a person who consumes as much media as I do, you get this false sense of like, what I would do in that, you know, in a certain situation when it's theoretical, I feel very, like, not even brave, but just like aggressive and entitled. And I can get to a point where I feel like I could hear myself saying like, Oh, I would kill that person. Or I would, which of course I would never do. In fact, I don't even wanna like, say anything unkind about them in a very public way. So knowing me and knowing my values, and you could just never go wrong if you stick with your own values. Like, it's not my value to, it's not my value to tell people, You know what, here's a thing you need to know about yourself.1 (7m 43s):And it's not my val even though I do that with people, people that I know, but not strangers. And it's my value to like, keep as much peace in my life as possible. And it's not my value to engage with toxic people with whom I could only ever have a toxic Yeah. You know,2 (8m 0s):Interaction. Right. It's not gonna get better. It's like a legit never gonna get better because it's just, that's not how, that's not how it works if you engage in that. So anyway, that okay. But that, that has nothing to do with the overarching shitty No,1 (8m 14s):The overarching thing is just like, wow, parenting is so hard. People, people are really, people learn at different rates. People learn lessons at different rates. People mature at different rates. Like, and having patience for somebody who's really behind in so many ways is exhausting and overwhelming to me. So there's that piece. There's like, you know, a relative with having a health crisis, there's,2 (8m 45s):Oh,1 (8m 46s):There's just stuff going on. Yeah. And, but this is what I'm doing differently this time. Okay. I am trying to stay with myself, which is to say, yes, things are terrible, things are going wrong, but I am not gonna abandon myself in the process. Yeah. Of like, feeling my way through it. And in fact, that's another new thing, is I'm feeling my way through it and I'm really trying to apply this thing about taking a beat and like how crazy, you know, Aaron is also having, we're simultaneously having this growth moment. And, and you know, he recently made a big stride with somebody in his family who's having a health crisis, and he, he said, You know something I like, I'm not gonna go to crazy town.1 (9m 32s):Like I, he, I saw the light bulb for him. Like, I have a choice about whether or not I wanna go to crazy town on this. And actually I don't, because actually it's bad for my, because you know, I was thinking about this when I was at Costco today and I was doing some something small and I was wanting to like, do it really fast. And I thought, why do I wanna do everything so fast? Like, my shoulders are tense all the time. Like, I don't wanna do anything so fast anymore. There's no reason I'm not in any rush. Like I, there's, it's, it's just a habit from youth. I feel like just doing everything in a big rush, rush, rush. Yeah. And I think it's time to let that go.2 (10m 9s):Oh, I mean it's, so I feel like it's such an intense and like right on timing because there's this whole movement about rest. Have you heard about this? Like rest is radical, Rest is as a revolution. So there's a black woman and I believe I, I I I, I am ignorant to what her like specialty is area. And I just started hearing about it. And Miles my husband was listening to her an interview with her about how rest, not napping, not, but like r really snatching and holding dear to the idea of rest as, as radicalism, rest as a revolution opposite of hustle.2 (10m 50s):Culture is like gonna be the way that we, this is my interpretation of what she's saying. Like, the way that we sort of fight injustice and in fight racism, all the isms is by really embracing rest culture as opposed to hustle culture. So1 (11m 8s):I love that. And by the way, black women are spawn every good thing there is in the world. Like, you find a trend that's happening in society that you like and think is really positive. You can definitely trace it back to a black woman who, who, who, who started, who started it. So that's great. I'm pro rest, I'm, and I'm also trying to do less of like I'm a human being, not a human doing. And like, if I don't cross everything off of my to-do list, that doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not like I'm, it's not a wasted day if I didn't get all my little tasks done, you know, especially I was emotionally dealing with something else.2 (11m 45s):Yes, yes. That's the other thing. It's that the, the emotional, you know, I think like if it's become such sort of a, I don't know, buzzword or whatever phrase, emotional labor, but I do think that the time that I spend thinking, feeling and, and, and doing internal work, I've never counted as anything. And I think the way, and, and watching, especially having watched in white male dominated Hollywood for so long, Let me tell you something, Those motherfuckers rest okay. They rest when they, when, So don't you think for one second that the people who are on top or seemingly running shit or whatever or are running shit are not resting because they are, they can, they may set the trend for hustle culture, but they're really talking ultimately about the rest of us hustling because they have yachts and vacation homes.2 (12m 43s):They rest. I don't care what you say. You know what I mean? Yeah.1 (12m 46s):It's, it's such a, it's such a, I don't even know how to describe it. It's such, it's like a comical notion that these masters of the universe are really hustling all the time because all of their work is built on the backs of people who are oppressed in one way or another. So really everybody under them is hustling. Correct. Much, much more than they are,2 (13m 8s):Right? Yes.1 (13m 9s):And we've been able to outsource all their, you know, a domestic, everybody we've been able to out Yeah. Everything. Yeah.2 (13m 16s):And like, I think, I think the other, the other sort of weird shit is that like, you know, the older I get, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the more I realize like it's all a pyramid scheme, right? Like, so any capitalism thing that you are into, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's, I don't care, like anything, whether you work in tech, anything is all basically a pyramid scheme because that is what capitalism is. And so I feel like there are just more and more subtle ways in which I am seeing that the, you know, the rules are never fair and the what's behind the curtain is always the same, which is a select few who tend to be, you know, white males are really running the show.2 (14m 10s):And we shall see what if it, if it changes with, without a civil war. Like, I, I don't know.1 (14m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I always think of like great ideas for memes, but then I never make them. But we should do one of like, you know, a picture of that, of the Wizard of Oz and, and when we see the curtain and you know, what the internet is what has opened the curtain really, you know, kind of exposed and reality TV to some degree has exposed and documentaries have exposed like the truth of what's going on. The great unraveling is also like the great discovery of what the actual truth is.2 (14m 48s):Sure. Yes. I mean, when you, when you unravel the sweater, it's like what is under there is is like this old decrepit white dude who's flabby and, and not in shape telling the rest of us that we're fat lards and need to get it together. And that is what's happening. So I'm not, and the other thing I'm not doing, it's really interesting. It's like I've made a conscious decision to literally stop following up with people who are not following up with me.1 (15m 22s):Yes. Yeah.2 (15m 23s):I'm not following up, I'm not circling back. I'm not, I'm not hitting you up again. I'm not waiting three months and then putting it on my calendar to circle back. I'm done, I'm done with all that. I don't, I don't have anymore resources to circle back. Like, I'm not willing. Yeah. So if we have a thing and we're supposed to meet and you can't do it, or you, you keep putting it off, it's over. Unless you wanna come out of the blue and say, Hey, I realize that like we never met. Are you interested in meeting on this day at this time? And then I am okay. Because it is just my following up is taking up too much time. I'm not, I'm not1 (15m 58s):Interested taking too much time. It's, that's emotional labor too. And also, like I've gotten to the point in life where I, if, if I reach out and somebody says, Yeah, and then we go, you know, we try to firm it up and they, they ghost me, which by the way, I have done bajillions of times me to, I just understand it as the way that you're communicating to me non-verbally that you actually don't wanna be part of this thing. Correct. Which is totally fine because a lot of us over commit and can't, you know, carry out our commitments. It's fine. But I'm less inclined even after like one interaction that because the person is telling me who they are, if not who they are, how they actually feel. You know, because you make, you make, you make time for whatever you want to make2 (16m 38s):Time for. That is absolutely true. And I also feel like I am so like, okay, so we bought this house, we bought, I don't know if you know this, but we bought the second house. We didn't buy the first house. The first house was got invested with no, Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you this because I was waiting for the podcast. But, and then, anyway, that first house, I have to send you the pictures of our real house. The first house was owned by Open Door, which is a horrible private equity company that just bought up all the houses in southern California. And anyway, they communication is horrible. They treated my realtor and us like crap. And, and so we just walked away from the deal, got our earnest money back because they would not fucking fix their fucking $8,000 termite problem.2 (17m 23s):So we were like, bye, I'm done. So then we found this other house built in 1980 that I fucking adore. And so it is so dope and I am restoring it to its 1980s glory. So it's gonna be an eighties. Like every room, every room is gonna have sort of an anchor of 1980. It's a very specific year because it's like the, the seventies are still, which is why I was like, can you make my neon sign1 (17m 48s):Pink? Yes, By the way, which I did look into and I would love to do for you, but to get what we wanna put on it is like a minimum thousand dollars.2 (17m 57s):Yeah, let's not do that. Don't do that. We'll do it. Yeah. We1 (18m 1s):Could slash I was trying to do like fa slash o you know, as a, as an acronym.2 (18m 9s):Let's just do people do it all the time. People put f fa Yeah, yeah, just do that. Don't worry about it. Okay. But so, okay, so what I'm saying is like, I'm obsessed now with picking out pieces for this new home that we, we, we close on the 7th of November and we move at the end of November. And so all this to say is like, I've realized I would much rather look at giant pink velvet sectionals that are retro refurbished from the 19, from 1980 than fucking follow up and circle back with your motherfucking whatever you're gonna help me with. Yeah. I would much rather look at, oh my God, they made what in the eighties.2 (18m 51s):That is, I I would much rather like focus it on my life and like how to bring creativity and art to this our first home that we're gonna own. You know, And then fucking track you, your ass down. Who doesn't wanna hang out with me in the first place? Bye bye.1 (19m 13s):Hey,2 (19m 14s):Let run this by1 (19m 15s):You today is about rejection.2 (19m 25s):I love it.1 (19m 26s):I'm sure we've talked about it here. Oh, I'm sure we run it by each other before here. But, you know, it's one of those perennial topics. So I, I liked truly by happenstance learned about an opportunity to direct something. Not with a theater company that I used to work with, but a different or organization. And it just so happened they were doing this play and, and the person who was producing it was like, Oh, we're looking for a director who's this and this? And I go, Oh my God, that's me. Yeah. So she says, Great, you know, and submit. And I submitted and, and I had, I submitted and four months before I got a call from anybody saying, Can you come in for an interview?1 (20m 10s):And then when they did, not a call, an email from somebody who emailed me at 2:00 PM asking me if I could come at 7:00 PM2 (20m 18s):Yeah.1 (20m 19s):Now I wanted to do this. So I, I did, I hustled, I got it together. I wrote up like my, I wrote like a thesis basically on who I am as a director. And then I went to the interview with, with eight, eight or nine people there.2 (20m 35s):Oh my god.1 (20m 37s):Yeah. And you know, there was one qualification for this job that I was missing, but it wasn't something, It wasn't, to me it wasn't a deal breaker. And I was, I was very upfront, I said it right in the beginning anyway, this theater is not necessarily that high profile, which is an understatement.2 (21m 0s):I just can't believe that's too many people in a fucking interview. No, I literally wrote eight person It's too scary in person.1 (21m 8s):Yes, in person. And honestly, like even that wasn't bad because I, you know how you can just get in there and be in the zone and turn it on. And I was charming and I was, you know, an answering questions like honestly, but in a way that I felt demonstrated my competence, et cetera. Now I didn't exactly have it in my mind, like they'd be lucky to have me, but when I got rejected, I thought they would've been lucky to have me. Like, that was a mistake. What2 (21m 32s):The fuck? Did they reject you? What the fuck? Who'd they pick? What the fuck?1 (21m 36s):They, I don't know. And I've, you know, I'm trying to be politic here cuz there's people that I like who are part of this group, but it just, it just didn't work out that way. They, they, so, I don't know, I don't know who they picked, but they, but at the end of her email she said, We'd like you to re resubmit for like, this next opportunity. And so I'm working on, you know, like, it's not that if I had to do it over again, I would've done it differently. But when I really got clear with myself about things, I, you know, I was not that excited about this opportunity because it wasn't going to do anything for my career.1 (22m 21s):It really was just gonna be like an opportunity to direct and flex my muscles, which I would've loved to do. And so I, I, you know, as an actor you have to deal with rejection all the time. I just would love to know, like, actors do seem to have amazing strategies, seasoned ones, and the thing I hear the most often people say is like, after the audition, just forget it. Don't ever think about it again. But I would love to hear what your strategy2 (22m 45s):Look are. I think that for people that are, that are working and auditioning or interviewing all the time that you, that that is a really good strategy. The Brian Cranston method, which is you, you just do it and forget it. However, for those of us who don't do that every day, all day long, where it's like the one thing is more important because it's the one thing that we go out for. Like, I, like for me, I don't audition all the time. So like, when I get an opportunity from my agent, I take it really seriously and I wanna book it. And I'm, I really put in a lot of work in time. Okay, fine.2 (23m 24s):So I, it's so easy to say one and done, like forget it. But I think that that's great if that's where people are, like Brian Cranston, Okay, does he even have to audition for things anymore? I don't know. But for me, the thing that really works is what something you just said, which is to really go through and say, did I, what, what did I want about this thing? Because did I just wanna be picked? Because of course that's really valid. Like who the fuck doesn't wanna be special and picked if you say you don't, you're a sociopath like that, I don't care. You know? So I wanna be loved and picked, so that hurts on that level.2 (24m 6s):And then if I go deeper, I'm like, okay, but what is the thing that I liked about this particular interaction? Possible collaboration. Okay, well I really wanted to get more practice on what for me would be like practice on set, working out how not to be nervous on set. Okay. So I I'm gonna miss that opportunity, but like if I look at the text, did I really connect to it? Not really. So it's not that. So I think it's just like literally like what you said before, which is giving yourself and myself the time to feel my way through and think, okay, like what is upsetting about this? What is upsetting for me? It would be, if I was in your shoes, it would be like, I spent a lot of time and energy interfacing with these people.2 (24m 50s):Even if it was like, so if you, from when you submitted, even though that you weren't like thinking about it all the time, it was still hanging in the air for four months. Right? It's a four month long. Even if it's in the back of your, of, in the ethos, it's still there. Okay. So it's still like on the table. And then you finally have an interview with all these people, lovely people, whether or not it doesn't matter, you're still give, putting out so much fucking energy. And so what it feels to me, like, I would feel like, oh, like I did my best. I put myself out there, I made a case for myself and my work in front of a lot of people and I didn't get the thing.2 (25m 31s):And that just feels shitty.1 (25m 33s):It does. It just, and there's no way around it. Like sometimes things just feel shitty. And I did definitely wanna be picked the, the idea that somebody would, you know, the, like I'm a sucker for an opportunity to be picked for something. I don't, I don't necessarily like avoid things. I don't avoid things that could, you know, possibly lead in rejection. I, I, I approach those things or I try to, but it was the thing I said earlier, like, I just wanted, I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun to, to work on this, but upon reflection there are 1 million things I could be working on and would love to work on. And that would've prevented me from do, you know, for a period of time that would've prevented me from working on those things.1 (26m 16s):So it's a blessing and I what's for you will not go by you. I totally believe in that. And it was my, in fact it was my mantra that, you know, yesterday when I found out. So,2 (26m 26s):And, and, and, and to be fair, like you just found out. So like, if it was like three months from now, like I've had friends who, and I, I mean I may have had this too, where like it lasts more than 24 hours. This feeling of why did I get rejected? Why, why, why? What could I have done? Why didn't they like me? Look, it's been less than 20, you know, you're fine. Yeah. Like, you're not, Yeah. So I, I but rejection is something that is like the, the true, the true greats that I love seem to, their take on rejection is like, it gets easier the more you get rejected.1 (27m 13s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tina Wong, You are in for such a treat. Tina is amazing. Not only does she star and has starred on almost all of the soap operas, you've seen her in television film, She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer. She does film television. She's a voiceover artist too. She does theater. She truly, truly, truly does it all. We really loved talking to her and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Tina Juan,0 (27m 47s):I'm2 (27m 47s):Not totally losing, losing it. Anyway, you survived and you went, you did a lot of things. I, I mean, first we're gonna get to it all, but can I just say, and I can because this is, this is, this is the platform to say it. I love that you were on two soap operas and more people, maybe more than two. Were you on more than two or just4 (28m 7s):Yeah, yeah,2 (28m 8s):Because Yeah, go ahead.4 (28m 11s):No, most recently just two, but yes.2 (28m 13s):Okay. So here's the thing about that is that I don't care. We went to theater school and I know a lot of people think that that is, or some people talk shit about soap operas in terms of acting. Yeah. I have never seen or heard actors work as hard as my friends that have been on soap operas. And in terms of the pace and the pacing and the, the amount of work that is required of, of, of actors at soap operas a stunning. So I just love it because I think that it is like, from what my, what I know about it, it's like a gymnastics routine that people are doing on those sets. So we'll go, I just wanna say that I like give full props to that because it's not a joke soap opera work.2 (28m 55s):It is not a joke. Thank4 (28m 56s):You. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Shut2 (28m 58s):Out. Yeah, thank you.1 (29m 0s):So I'll just ask then, pursuant to that, because I think you are the first person we're interviewing who was on a soap opera, and I would love to know everything about the process of your audition and how you, Cause I've heard, I, I used to, I used to, when I was in high school, my show was days and I read soap, Opera Digest and everything. But I would love to know, like I've heard some people describe it as more of a, it can sometimes have a feeling of more of a regular job since it's like daytime hours, et cetera. But I would love to hear what your experience of just the work of being on a soap opera.4 (29m 34s):Well, first of all, I love everyone that I work with. I'm, I'm on days, so, but you're2 (29m 40s):Still on it. Oh my, my gosh.4 (29m 41s):I'm still on it. I'm still on it. So in fact, I'm like shooting six episodes next week. So I'm, I'm on a little break in Canada, just like here having a little vacation before we go.2 (29m 54s):Good for you. Oh my gosh. Six in a week. It's like Saturday Night Live. What's happening? Okay. How did you get on these? What was your first one that you were on, first of all? Was4 (30m 2s):It the first one? The first one I was on was I think days. And then when I first came to LA and then I did General Hospital and then I did Young and the Restless, and then I did, then I was on Bold and the Beautiful and Days at the same time during the Pandemic. And then now I'm on days Doing days.2 (30m 24s):Oh my Tina, Tina Bow Tina. This is, this is, this is incredible because what this tells me is that you are extremely obviously talented, but we know that because I've seen you on Rezo and aisles, all the things, but it's also, you are, it must be really wonderful to work with because people keep bringing you back and back and back. So you must be like a real sort of team player, which I bet is part of your theater tra like you are an ensemble. Yes. Right?4 (30m 53s):Yes. I think the best part about doing any of this is the collaboration part. You know, when people don't want, it's funny when people don't like notes and don't like getting notes. I'm always like, I love notes. Like I can't just do this on my own and act in a bag. Like I need, I need you to like tell me what's going on. What do you see that I don't see, you know, all of that is, that's the best part. The collaboration. Yeah.1 (31m 14s):So I'm still eager to know a little bit more about like how you, how it started with your audition and how you experience the day to day work of being a soap opera for actor Sure. As opposed to any other type of actor.4 (31m 26s):Sure. Well, I, I got the audition to, to go in for days and I read for Marni Satya, who, I hope I'm saying her name right, who's the casting director. And it went well. And she said, you know, we have a call back. And I said, great. I can't remember if that was the next day or if that was the same day. It may have been the same day. And she told me to just wait, I can't remember. Cuz the producers were upstairs and they wanted to do producer sessions right away and, or it may have been the next day and she, they sent sides, you know, again, but I just assumed they were the same audition and it was like 14 pages. It was like a lot of pages. But just so you know, soap scripts are, you know, one and a half spacing.4 (32m 9s):Oh yeah. So it's not single spacing, but2 (32m 11s):Still, still it's a dialogue. Listen, I, I'm like an under 10. I like always do an under 10 because that's my jam. I have trouble with that. I don't, Oh my, you must be, you're okay. So you get all these pages and you assumed it was the same, but I'm guessing it wasn't the same.4 (32m 27s):So I show up and she wanted just read all of us ladies that came back in to, to for the producer session and just like talk to us and all that kind of stuff. And she said, So you got the new scenes? And I said, New scenes, No. And then she said, Oh well we gotta go, we gotta go up to the producers right now. So we all walked up and she goes, Don't worry, I'll put you last, you know, don't hear the new scripts.2 (32m 51s):Oh my god. The new scripts. I'm peeing my pants right here. Okay, go ahead. And I4 (32m 56s):Don't remember how different it was, but I, I think it was quite different.2 (32m 60s):Like,4 (33m 1s):And she said, just take, you know, whatever time we'll put you last. And there was like maybe four, four women that, excuse me, my nose is running, but four women ahead of me and I just studied. Oh2 (33m 12s):My God. You were like, okay, nyu. Okay, tons of Shakespeare, memorization don't fail me now. Right. So, okay, so you go, were you nervous? Which it's4 (33m 23s):Harder when you get older.2 (33m 25s):No shit. Okay. Right. So you go in the room and there's producers there, obviously it's a producer's session. And is the casting lady still in the room with you?4 (33m 34s):She, she's still in the room and it was only one producer, the executive producer, so it's just him. But it was a big conference room. Anyway, when I was waiting to go in, one of the actresses, like, I guess they overheard what had happened and this, this another actor said, You didn't get the sides? And I said, No, you didn't get the new scenes. I said, No. And she said, That's sucks. That's terrible. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna study. Yeah, I'm2 (34m 3s):Just studying like, be quiet. Like leave me alone. Right,4 (34m 7s):Right.2 (34m 7s):Not helpful. Not helpful. Not helpful.4 (34m 10s):I'm, I'm not that person. I don't compete with anybody in the audition room. I compete with myself and I think maybe that's part of my success. I just, I'm hard enough on myself. I don't need to add like everyone else has a distraction. But it was really interesting. So, so then he, they called me in and it went really well. I mean, it was just this huge conference room with a giant table in between us. So it was like, not like a theater setup or an audition room, A normal audition room. And it went really well. I mean, I think I sobbed, I think I was shaking, I think like all of those things. And maybe it was from the, that cold read sort of nerves that just let me just go with my, just go with my intuition, you know?4 (34m 53s):Yeah,1 (34m 54s):Right. No time to think and obsess and, and worry about it. Right. Do you get to, like, considering how much dialogue you have to memorize every single day for the next day's work, is there any room for improvisation or do you, are you supposed to say it word for word?4 (35m 9s):Supposed to say it word for word? I think there's a little bit of leeway. You know, the longer you've been on the show, they, they don't, you can't improv for sure. It's all written, but, you know, if you get a the instead of and or you know, those little things, the pace is so quick that they're not gonna redo the, and we usually get one to two takes. Right. We don't get multiple takes.2 (35m 30s):Oh my, my God.4 (35m 32s):It moves at an incredible speed. So when you said what you said about soap acting and soap actors, I really have a tremendous respect. I think a lot of people like to put judgment on high art and low art. And I, I don't really get the point of that, but, but they, people love it. People watch it, it gives them a sense of comfort. And the actors that I've met are so hardworking and so talented, like very good actors. They're just in the job that they're in. You know what I mean? And a lot of it's a lot of this soap acting is soap work has gotten better. So1 (36m 5s):Absolutely. I would go so far as to say that's probably a sexist thing that soap, soap operas have whatever reputation that they do because you know, anything that a lot of women like people tend to denigrate. Right. Okay. So did you always want to be an actor? Did you always want to go to theater school? What was your journey when you were picking colleges?4 (36m 33s):Wow. You know, I, being a Asian American woman, I didn't really see that it would be a possible career path for me. I was like a secret artist, you know, like inside I really wanted to be on the stage and I really wanted to act and all of that. But I didn't have examples really. I think growing up I had like for a short stint Margaret Show and, and Lucy Lou and you know, very few and then like Chinese actresses that I knew of. But it was a tough journey. So I secretly auditioned for LaGuardia music and art and performing arts in New York City. You know, the fame high school? Oh2 (37m 12s):Yeah. Oh yeah. I know that you went there and I'm wondering, like you seek, what does it mean to secretly audition where you didn't tell your folks and you were like, I'm out.4 (37m 20s):Didn't tell my folks. Yeah, I mean, how old are you when you start high school? I mean, I was probably, Oh yeah, what are we, 12? No, 13. 13.1 (37m 28s):13. I, No, 13. Really young, really4 (37m 30s):Young.1 (37m 31s):13. Do that on your own.4 (37m 32s):So I, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I took the subway up. I I applied to audition and, well first I was in the, the fine arts program, so, which they also didn't like. And I had an amazing art teacher in junior high school who mentored me to make, make a portfolio and all this kind of stuff. So I'd gone up and did the art test without telling my parents. And I, and I got into the art program. Wait a minute2 (37m 55s):Differently. You didn't get into the, you went for fine art. For, for and you, what do you mean the art test? What the hell is that? That sounds horrifying. What do you mean an art test?4 (38m 7s):So, well I didn't, I didn't audition yet for theater cause I think it was too scary at that moment for me. So first I did the art program because I was encouraged by a grown up teacher who was like, thought she saw talent in me, which was very amazing to have a teacher like that. And the art test was, you had to have a full portfolio, like at least 10 or 15 pieces in a portfolio. So you carry that big old thing. Like imagine a 12 year old kid carrying a portfolio uptown. I mean it's just, it's, it's crazy when I think about it. And then you get there and there's like a still life setup and there's all the, everybody sits around on desks and you have to draw, you have to draw the still life,2 (38m 48s):My god, all the pressure. And4 (38m 49s):Then they bring in, and then they bring in a model and then you have to draw the model2 (38m 55s):A. This is like my nightmare of like any kind of that where you're like, it's a test. Anxiety, high pressure, pressure, creativity, high pressure on the spot, creativity. I would've been passed out. I would've passed out.4 (39m 10s):I don't think so. I mean, look, we we're all, it's a good prep for like auditioning and callbacks and just we're al you're always under pressure. We're under pressure right now doing the podcast. But, but yeah, I mean I think growing up in New York you're constantly under pressure. So I, I maybe I was used to it for that reason. But2 (39m 30s):I do have to say Tina, Tina, there is something about you. Yes, ma'am. That is like super badass, tough, even just the way you present and your voice in the best possible way. So like, and I wonder if that is a mix of, you know, New Yorker, Asian American parents. My, my guess is I'm the par a daughter of an immigrant. Your daughter of an immigrants. Right. Of immigrants. Yeah. Okay. So there's like a toughness about you and like all I could, like you're a badassery. Do you think it is New York? What is it? Where does that come from? Because you should play, you, you should play an assassin and a like a, like an action hero in, in like huge films.2 (40m 13s):Why isn't that? We gotta make that happen today anyway,4 (40m 16s):So let's just call Kevin Fig and just let him know like, I'm available. Well, I, I think you touched on it. I think it's all those things that make up who I am. I, I, I am tough. I am tough but I like, I I, but I don't see myself necessarily that way. I'm like, you know, I think we've, I think I spent actually a lot of years trying to counteract that tough expectation by being like smiley and sweet and doing the things that I think women tend to do. Women identifying women tend to do, like by softening themselves and being smaller in the room. And I think over the years as you get older you hit 40 and you're like, fuck that.4 (40m 56s):Oh, am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. You just kinda like, absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over this. But I think it's all those things. I think definitely New York and always having your defenses up and always having an awareness around you and having parents that worked extremely hard and sacrificed a lot and knowing that I could sacrifice more. I think that's also part of like surviving as an artist. Like do I need to eat that fancy thing today? Do I need to have that new outfit? Like no, I, if I want to succeed then those are the things I need to let go of in order to invest in my career.4 (41m 36s):So yeah, I think a lot of it is identifying as an Asian American female, I think having immigrant parents for sure that work really hard. I think New York City and all of its dangerous that I survived. So I survived theater school and New York City and now I'm trying to survive LA1 (41m 56s):Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Lot of surviving happening. So at what point did you, well obviously you told your parents that you applied and that you got in for the fine arts program. Yeah. They obviously had to get on board with that at some point, cuz you're still doing it. But then tell us about the switch into acting.4 (42m 17s):So it was my first year as a, as the, you know, a drawing, painting, sculptor. And I just found it really lonesome. Like I, I I was like a little emo kid, you know what I mean? Like all this angst I had just had so much angst cause I grew, I had a rough childhood and I, I just found, found myself in a little bit of a depression as a freshman in high school, which is I guess not that rare, but I just kept looking at the theater department and seeing these kids getting to like fully express themselves and be around others like them. You know, painting is a solitary thing I think like writing, I don't know if you have that experience, the two of you. Cause I read that you're both writers and I write as well and it's a very different world you're in.4 (43m 3s):So I decided to just do it apply to the theater department and that process first it's like two monologues, right? Contemporary and a classic.2 (43m 14s):Do you remember what you did? Do you remember what you did? Oh, it's okay.4 (43m 18s):Oh boy.2 (43m 19s):I bet was great. Whatever it was.4 (43m 22s):The modern piece, I don't remember the name of it or, or where it was from, but it was, it was a girl witnessing her parents', her parents' divorce and, but going through her house and talking about how the home represented the family, you know, and, and like where things belonged in the house and how those things are gonna be moved and that means their family no longer existed, exists. So it was a really beautiful piece. I can't remember where it was from. And then the other one was Shakespeare and I'm sure I did a terrible job. It may have been1 (44m 2s):Saying4 (44m 2s):I don't remember the Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't remember the Shakespeare. That's funny.2 (44m 6s):Yeah. But I bet you know, you go, you know, you know4 (44m 10s):It was Porsche, the quality and mercy is not strange.2 (44m 14s):Oh yeah, that's1 (44m 15s):Exactly what I did. Terrible.2 (44m 20s):Wait a minute. So we have, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm just picturing both you two for Gina. I'm wondering, I'm thinking it was to get into DePaul's theater school, right? Okay. And Tina, yours was even younger cuz you were, you were like 15, 14 playing Porsche. Yes. Oh that's fantastic. 14 year old Porsche's all around. Okay, so you must have, okay, so then what did you did, did it go on from there? Like you did your monologues? Oh,4 (44m 46s):So yeah, so then you do that and then there's a call back. So you go to another room with a different auditor and I'm trying to make sure I don't blend my high school audition to my college audition. But then we went from that callback to a screen test. So you to do a screen test and then wait,2 (45m 4s):Wait, A screen test for LaGuardia? Yeah. Like4 (45m 8s):At, at the time. At the time, Yeah. I remember that because I remember they said you have to go to good screen, so there's like a camera and you whatever on camera audition. And then from there, oh I, I remember there was five steps. I can't remember what the, I remember we may have had to go into the theater and do like a, like the theater exercises and movement stuff and then we had to do a interview one-on-one interview with the head of the department. So it was, you know, a lot of steps to,1 (45m 39s):This is so far tougher than it was for our, the audition. Like we had to do those other things you're describing. But we did not, I don't think we did a one-on-one interview.2 (45m 48s):No. Was1 (45m 49s):It nerve wracking?4 (45m 51s):Yeah, I mean as a kid I, I guess I didn't really like, I didn't, maybe didn't sink in that I was, that that's what was happening. But I just, you know, followed the line. I, whatever they told me where I needed to go, I just went and did it. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a lot more steps than my college audition as well as well.2 (46m 9s):So, So you got in, did they just tell you I'm the spot Tina or were you, how did it work? And then were you, did you tell, did your parents know you were switching?4 (46m 20s):No, they didn't know. No, they didn't know. No, I think I, I think I just got a letter. I don't, I don't know if, I don't think they, I think they gave me the sense that it was a good fit, but I don't think I knew until later. Cause it's like thousands of kids in New York City, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. Auditioning. So,2 (46m 39s):So1 (46m 40s):I'm curious about whether the, like what, what the pipeline situation was from LaGuardia to conservatories. Cuz a lot of kids who get training young or get working young don't go for theater school because they figure like, well I already know what I'm doing. So like what, what, how was it at LaGuardia? Did mostly kids go and pursue performing arts in college or what?4 (47m 5s):You know, I think a handful of us did. But honestly I, I think a lot of people didn't continue on. So it was kind of a weeding out process. You know, a lot of people went into who poli political science. A lot of people went into, you know, a lot of different things. I mean a lot of people I, I remember I went to high school with are doing amazing things currently. I mean, one of, one of the girls I was friends with, she's like a pundit on cnn, like, like one of the leading, she went into politics and then became like a on camera. So those two worlds sort of merged. But yeah, no, I, I think I ended up applying to four schools.4 (47m 45s):Four conservatories. So SUNY purchase Rutgers, I don't remember nyu. And what was,2 (47m 55s):I'm gonna just throw out Carnegie Mellon.4 (47m 57s):Carnegie Mellon. I think it was Carnegie. I, no, no, it was Boston University. I actually, it was interesting. I didn't, I didn't, I was so, I don't know. I just, I didn't do Julliard and I didn't do Carnegie Mellon. I don't know why. Oh, I know why Pittsburgh. I didn't wanna go to Pittsburgh. Sorry if, if either of you have a fondness for Pittsburgh, but I didn't wanna be there.2 (48m 23s):Never been. And also, I have a friend that went to the Carnegie Mellon program in NI started in 1993 and they weighed them at the, in their acting classes, they weighed them. So I'm glad we didn't go. I mean, you know, whatever. We missing, not missing out. Forget, forget Pittsburgh. Also the weighing, Fuck you. So, okay, so you, you auditioned, Did you do like the urda, like all of them at once, Tina? Or did you go, how did it work for your colleges? And then tell us how, how you made your choice.4 (48m 57s):So yeah, I think I did do them. You know, they, they set up the appointments to the different places. I remember that I really wanted to go to SUNY purchase. I do remember that because Israel Hicks was the head of the department then. And I remember thinking, oh he's an amazing teacher to study under. And it was such a small conservatory program. So I went up there that, that, by that point I did tell my parents I was gonna theater school and they were not happy about it. I mean, imagine they're immigrants, right? They came across the world not speaking the language, giving up everything, working very, very hard to make a better life for their children. And then their one child that didn't go to CO that is going to college wants to be an artist.4 (49m 38s):I mean that's like pretty brutal for them to absorb. But yeah, I, You were saying when you leave high school, like why, why go into the theater school? I, because I, both my brothers had not gone to college. My older brothers and my parents were, you know, had immigrated here. And like, I just, I felt like college was really important. I felt like getting an education was really important. And maybe, I remember thinking at the time, imagine being 17 and thinking I'm ruining my career. Cuz I thought it was gonna slow down my career because I did have one. We have an industry night at the end of high school and I got a manager, a New York City manager and I was freelancing with all these different agents and for like, the few months that I was not gonna leave New York.4 (50m 25s):And wait2 (50m 26s):A minute, wait a minute, wait. A I gotta go back here cuz I'm in awe. Gina, are you in awe? Cause I'm in awe that you, you had an industry night in high school and you got a manager from that. You're how old it did? 17.4 (50m 41s):17, Yeah.2 (50m 42s):You have a manager and you're freelancing. What did that feel like? I mean I'm like that. I'm like in awe. Were you like I am the shit? Are you like, this is just what I do. You're like a young, like a 17 year old professional actor. What in the hell?4 (50m 57s):I think, I think I was kind of like feeling like my dreams were coming true in a lot of ways, but I don't think I was secure in it. I definitely for sure was like, this could go away tomorrow. Am I doing the right things? You know, that manager at the time, she was lovely, but it, she did say to me like, you should move to Los Angeles. And at that point I just wanted to go to college and it, and most of the options were on the east coast that I wanted to, to, you know, except for Boston University. Well, Boston's east coast too. But she just said like, Well I just feel like if you move to the west to LA like later you're gonna be over the hill. I was 17, oh my god I was 17. God.4 (51m 36s):And2 (51m 37s):That's, that's such projection. It's such projection. It's all, I mean they mean even if they mean well, it's still projection. So you had this manager, but you were, and you were auditioning, I'm assuming in New York City. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but you really wanted to go to college and so4 (51m 55s):I really wanted to go2 (51m 56s):To college. Okay, so you wanted to go to suny. What happened there? Why, how did you end up at nyu?4 (52m 2s):Oh, so I got in to purchase, which was, which was a tough choice because SUNY purchases, like at the time was so cheap for in-state, like residents. And then, but I, I can't explain this to you at all, but I went, when I went and auditioned for nyu, I fell asleep at the audition. I remember in the waiting room. I just like, kind of not at often, I just think I just needed to be relaxed, you know? So cuz there was2 (52m 31s):All these like, what a power move.4 (52m 35s):I don't know if I was just like, you know, overwhelmed or, I don't think it was overwhelming, but I just felt like I just needed to relax. And there was like, you know, a bunch of young act New York City actors. And at the time NYU was a top conservatory. And I think I, there was like all these young actors that were like, like doing all the warmups, which I believe in a hundred percent. I do it before shows, but like, but it intimidated me in some way cuz I was like, well I didn't start acting until I was much older. I mean, I was young, but you know, in New York it felt like everybody's a kid actor that was enacting. So, I don't know, I, I fell asleep and then they woke me up and said, it's your turn.4 (53m 18s):I was like, Oh, okay. And I went in and I remember in all my auditions I did this weird thing, which, which I don't know if it's an an i, I took my shoes off in every audition. Like I, I felt like I needed to be grounded. Oh my2 (53m 31s):God. It's a power move. It's a power move. Listen to me, anyone, this is how I feel now watching youngsters. I mean, I don't hold auditions, but when, when someone has a specific bold take on, on how they're going to enter a room, they, they're yards ahead of everybody else. You made a bold move, Tina and I, I support it. I support it. You, it's like you, you had a take. Good for you.4 (54m 1s):I, I think I just needed to take care of myself. And I, I think at the time I didn't really have a lot of protection and people taking care of me in that way as a young artist. So I think I just had my own process, but part of that was being weird and saying, I need to take my shoes off and taking off my shoes. I've never told anyone that before. So Yeah, I did all my, It's1 (54m 23s):So related. This is some related to you being tough and a badass, because I think kind of what I'm hearing is however, the, I mean, I don't know necessarily the right way to say this, but you haven't waited for permission. Like you didn't wait for permission from your parents to audition for this school and you didn't, you know, ask them. Is it okay if I take you, You just did a lot, You've done a lot of things and maybe it's because you have felt like you've had to do it this vein on your own since you didn't have any family members who, who, who pursued this career. But I wanna know, Oh, sorry. You were actually, I interrupted you, you were in the middle of finishing your audition story.4 (55m 3s):No, I, I don't Where were we? I don't off.2 (55m 6s):Okay, so you That's ok. That's ok. We, I'm, I'm clocking. So you are there, you, you, you did all your auditions and you said you don't know how to explain it, but when you got into nyu, when you did your NYU audition?4 (55m 20s):Well, when I was waiting in the waiting room, when I fell asleep, that's where I was going. I just felt like I belong there. I just felt like I belonged there. I was just like, this is where I need to be. Even though purchase was my first choice and purchase at the time was very competitive. They took like 10 people in that year. And I, and it would've been cheap. Really ch that's one thing, NYU's not cheap, but I for sure, I just had this overwhelming sense that this is where I needed to be. And yeah, I, I did the audition for Beth Turner, who was amazing, amazing, I think she was a dean at the time, but auditor. And then she asked me what studio I wanted to be in and I told her Playwrights Horizons, or I think Adler is what I chose.4 (56m 11s):And she asked me why playwrights cuz she thought I should be placed in experi what was then called experimental theater wing, which is very physical. So I understand it now. She saw in me that I'm a very physical person and I told her, this is the hilarious part, I told her playwrights was my number one choice because you can study, directing, acting and design, which is what I ended up doing. And I said, I need a fallback plan, which is2 (56m 38s):Like4 (56m 39s):Directing and design, like great fallback. But2 (56m 43s):Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing, The other thing that I'm seeing is that you knew fallback plan or not, you wanted to study more than one thing. And most people go in there saying, Oh, I just wanna be a movie star so I have to go into Atlantic cuz David Mammo will cast me in. Like, you wanted a more broad sense of Yeah. You, you were like, we have several actors on the show like this where it's, they're like more renaissance people in terms of writing, acting, directing, and they're, and they're true. Like for me what it is, is a true artist instead of an actor. It's a, it's more of a collaborator and doing, making art in a collaborative setting.2 (57m 23s):And it happens to be for you right now, acting and maybe writing and maybe directing if you have or something. So I, I love that. And also my NYU audition, I went without having picked a, a studio. So they asked me where you wanna go? And I said, I have no idea. Well, they didn't let my ass in, nor should they have.4 (57m 45s):Oh, no, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think when I say fallback plan, I don't really think that is what it is. Cause I didn't think, obviously, you know, it's all a risk that we're taking. It really is true that I was very, I'm very interested in all aspects of storytelling. And I did tell her that, She asked me why directing, and I said, I am, I am incredibly stimulated in a different way when thinking about directing and how a story can be told and how it's structured and, and all of that. And, and I said, but it's not necessarily my heart. My heart is acting, but my mind is very connected to directing when she asked me that question.4 (58m 29s):So yeah. So cool.1 (58m 31s):Yeah. So you mentioned earlier your manager and saying you're gonna be over the hill and so forth. So we spent a lot of time talking about the whack messages that we got, especially being, you know, nineties, mid nineties, late nineties about like what you can and can't do and who you are and who you aren't and how you come across. And, and sometimes those opinions are wildly off base and sometimes there's smack Right on. What, what about you? Where did you fall on that with terms of like the, the feedback people was were giving you?4 (59m 3s):You know, it's, I think I'm still dealing with that today. I mean, I I, the feedback was people couldn't tell if I was a leading lady or if I was a character actor. And I will say they probably thought I was a character actor just because I was a woman of color. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna be the best friend,2 (59m 27s):Right? It's because they couldn't see beyond their own biases and the biases of the industry. And look, I think some of that is a product of the environment those people are in, but also nobody challenged. And that's what I'm ask. I feel like people are at least starting to do now challenged why someone couldn't do something. So Yeah, sure. So they told you, Oh, we think you're gonna be like, you know, Sandra Bullock's best friend or like, whatever, what the sidekick, because probably because you, you were an Asian American woman, you know? Yeah.4 (1h 0m 2s):Nice. Or you're the nerd or you know, put on some glasses and now you're like, network nerdy, you know? So it's, it's, it's, How did you ask me? How did I deal with it? Is that the question?1 (1h 0m 15s):I'm just curious. Like, people usually have an anecdote or two about like, you know, I just told it on the podcast last week that, you know, I went to this thing when I was in high school, like how to get in the business. And the only thing I remember the guy saying is, thin is in, and you're either gonna get thin or you're not gonna be in, Like, it was just very binary. And by the way, that was true. Like he wasn't, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't true, but it doesn't matter because I internalized that message and then I never wanted to be in film. Then I was like, I'll, okay, that means I can never be in film and tv. Yeah. And I never even thought twice about it until like two weeks ago. That's when I remembered that.4 (1h 0m 55s):That's so heartbreaking. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, my parents even honestly said, you can't be an actor. You're, you're Asian, you know, there's nobody like you. There's no, there's not many women like you, you're not gonna be successful. You're gonna be hungry all the time. You're never gonna, you know, and you know, they weren't totally wrong. They weren't trying to hurt me. They, you know, they, I think they were trying to protect me, but ultimately it hurt me. Do you know what I mean? It hurt my confidence, it hurt, you know? So a lot of my defense mechanism is to have confidence, if that makes any sense.2 (1h 1m 28s):Well that's, that's what I'm getting is that in response to the binary, you were able to go, Well, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my own self and take my own shoes off if I want to. Actually, I'm still gonna move forward and be like, I just love the idea of a woman of color being on a soap opera as one of the, like a recurring main characters. Because soap operas to me, in terms of casting, have not in the past been known to really embrace all kinds of things. But here you are on like Americana, which is soaps to me. And I mean, you have telenovelas and whatever, but the, but American soap operas are a thing and you're on one.2 (1h 2m 10s):So I know the word trailblazer is so overused, but I feel like you're a trailblazer. And what people fail to remember about trailblazers is, is that it's dirty, sweaty, hard work because you're literally in the dirt forging a path for yourself and perhaps those that come after you. Do you feel like that when you're working, that you're, and it's not fair to put it on people like women of color or women or othered people, but do you feel like in some way you're blazing a trail for other folks? Or do you just are just like, No, I just, I wanna work fuck the rest.4 (1h 2m 46s):No, I'm, I appreciate that question. I, I feel hopeful that that's what's happening. Do I think about it consciously when I'm working? Not necessarily, but I do intend to, if I can give other people opportunities, like if I don't suit a role, if they're like, Well this person's Vietnamese, will you audition? I pass. And I usually, you know, I've played other Asian races before because there are limited amount of roles. But I also believe like you have to get to a certain level and have a certain level of accomplishments in order to open the door for other people. So I will, I have, like I said, I'm passing on this, but this is this actress that you should look at. And I've sent names and you know, things, little things like that within my power.4 (1h 3m 30s):And I'm not trying to say like I'm a trailblazer or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the work, like you said, and take the opportunities when I can and try to do my best at it. And then hopefully set as some kind of example. I don't know what, but it is a lot.2 (1h 3m 45s):And I think that like trailblazing is, is is done primarily because there is something doesn't exist, which we want to see existing. And so then we have to do it on our own. Like, I agree that like I never woke up and thought, Oh, one day I'm gonna be like, do doing all this work. I just thought, no, like why doesn't this exist? Why can't plus size or Latinas do this? And then I went ahead and tried to make that space. But yeah, I feel like most trailblazers I know and iconic class or whatever don't like have that intention, right?2 (1h 4m 25s):We're not like, Oh, I'm gonna change. It's more like, No, this shit is wrong. It should exist and I'm gonna participate in change, right? Like a change maker.4 (1h 4m 34s):I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take space basically and not be apologetic for it. And, and that's a very hard thing to, to come to, you know, It's like, it's still, I wanna apologize all the time, you know what I mean? But that's my instinct. But because I wanna be a fair person. But I think ultimately it's like, no, I, I should claim the space and not be apologetic for it. I mean, I had a teacher in theater school and you're saying, What did people put on you who said to me, Tina, he said something very complimentary about a project I had just finished and something like, you know, good marks or something and said like, you're, you're very talented or whatever. And then he said, What I love about you is that you shatter stereotypes and on the, the face of it, you would think that's a positive thing, but I think it put a heavy weight on me.4 (1h 5m 24s):I think I felt this sort of, that's not what I'm, you're you're putting, that means you're putting so much on me when you even look at me, there's a, there's an expectation of you have to be excellent all the time. You have to be so good all the time. And if you not, if you're not excellent, people are gonna go, Oh, Asian women can't act, or Asian women shouldn't be doing this. And so there was a pressure, like I felt, wow. Like I guess he was trying to say something nice, but ultimately it just put this sort of,2 (1h 5m 51s):No, it puts more work. It's more work,4 (1h 5m 54s):More work. And it also puts like, you see me as a certain lens. You can't just see my work. You're seeing something else. Yeah. You know what I mean
Intro: Even our lungs need a sense of purpose. Let Me Run This By You: Boz is buying a house!Interview: We talk to actor and documentary filmmaker Cullen Douglas about AMDA, Florida School of the Arts, Southeastern Theatre Conference, Tyne Daly, character actors, Jason Priestly, Patricia Crotty, Our Town, Lenny Bruce, Dick Van Dyke, investigative journalism, reusing caskets, David Carr, Deadwood, playing Bilbo Baggins, being pen pals with Andrea McCardle, singing If I Were A Rich Man, The Pirates of Penzance, Bye Bye Birdie, Robert Sean Leonard, Billy Flanigan: The Happiest Man on Earth, Shonda Rhimes, Twin Peaks, Grey's Anatomy , Barry, Bill Hader, documentary filmmaking, The Humanitas Prize, Private Practice.FULL TRANSCRIPT (Unedited): 1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ruez.2 (10s):And I'm Gina Paci.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.2 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of1 (20s):It all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?3 (33s):TikTok and I started looking at the videos and I was like, Ooh, I don't know about this. I think I need to start wearing wake up. So thank you. You1 (43s):Look gorgeous. How are3 (43s):You doing?1 (44s):Yeah, hi. I'm finally, Many things are happening. Many things are happening. So I finally, even though I'm coughing still little, I finally feel like I am, I like kicked the pneumonia bronchitis situation and little mostly thank you. I, yeah, I, we went away and then to Ventura and I slash Ojai and I really rested and I really, there was one day I worked, but I really mostly rested and I just really was like, okay, I need actual ass downtime. And yeah.1 (1m 25s):And then I started to heal and I was also on praise God for antibiotics. And then the thing that really helped me really kick it was I hadn't exercised my lungs in a really long time at all because I was so sick that I just was like, Who wants to like walk or, and, and it was 107 degrees, so it's like, who wants to exercise in that? So my cousin, my sister came in town, I, that's like a big eyebrow raise for, to drop my niece off to college. And we went on a hike to Griffith, but like a sloping hike, not a crazy hike. And I was like, I don't think I'm gonna be able to do it.1 (2m 5s):And it actually helped my lungs to like feel like they were contributing to fucking something and me like Forgot I3 (2m 16s):Like a sense of purpose. Right,1 (2m 17s):Right. And also like to, yeah, to have a job. And they were like, like to be exercised and I was like, Oh, I forgot that. Like the lungs. And, and it's interesting in this whole covid situation, like the lungs need to work too. And I never understood in hospitals, cuz I spent quite a long time in them, why they have those breathing like tube things that you blow the ball and the ball floats up. You have to, I thought that was so dumb until I had bronchitis and pneumonia and I was like, Oh, they have to work. Like they have to be expanded. If you don't use them and work them, they get, it's not good when,3 (2m 58s):When my dad, you know, my dad had this really bad car accident when I was like nine years old and yeah, he rolled 40 times and he wasn't wearing a seatbelt, which saved his life because he was in a convertible. But of course the reason he got into the accident was because he was drinking anyway. He broke everything. Like he broke six ribs and he had one of, he had to spend one year lying on an egg crate mattress on the floor one year. And for the rest of his life, every time he sneezed or coughed it hurt his ribs. But he,1 (3m 34s):Oh, and he3 (3m 36s):Had one of of those things like you're talking about. And as a child I could not get it to the height that I was supposed to go. I shuder to think what it would be like right now. Yes. So you're, that was a good reminder to exercise our lungs. I make sure my breathing capacity is good1 (3m 54s):And, and, and even wait and, and it's like, I always literally thought, oh, you exercise to be skinny. That is the only, only reason no other, like, if you had asked me, I'd say, Oh, there's no other reason. What are you talking about? But now I'm like, oh, these parts of us need actual exercising. Literally lie. I just, it blew my mind.3 (4m 19s):I was lies1 (4m 21s):The lies.3 (4m 22s):It's endless. Yes.1 (4m 27s):Hey, let me run this by you. Oh, I think we're buying a house. What? This is the craziest Oh my not in, Yeah. Okay. This is what went down. So this is so crazy. Miles' job stuff has evened out in terms of like, there's just so much going on that I can't talk about, but which is makes for terrible radio, but podcasting. But anyway, the point is we're we're a little stable, so we went to Ventura and I was like, I fucking love this town. I love Ventura. It's an hour away. It's a weird like, think lost boys, right? Like Lost Boys. The movie is, is really Santa Cruzi, but like, that's what this town reminded of.1 (5m 9s):It's not, so it's Adventurer county, so it's like an hour northwest. It's on the beach. And I was like, I love this town. I I I love it here. There's so many brown folk. It's heavily, heavily you Latina. And it's like, so anyway, I was like, I love it, but I bet I can't afford it like anywhere in California. Well it turns out that Ventura is about 500,000 less on a house than la. So I was like, wait, what? So we saw this darling house that was, that is was small but like beautiful craftsman and you know, I'll just say I'll be totally transparent with $729,000, which is still a shit ton of money.1 (5m 49s):But I looked at the same exact property almost in, in, in Pasadena for 1.3 million for two bedroom, one bath. Yeah. Two bedroom, one bath got preapproved. I've never been preapproved for anything in my goddamn light. We got preapproved for a mortgage. I couldn't, Gina, I couldn't. But when we got the preapproval letter, like I literally, speaking of lies, I was like, okay, well just expect him to come back and say we can't do anything for you.3 (6m 17s):Yeah, right.1 (6m 19s):Just really know it's not gonna work. And he wrote back and was like, Here's what we can do on this house the mortgage wise and it's comparable. It's in the ballpark of what we're paying in rent. And I was like, I don't wanna be going into my middle aged and later years in no space.3 (6m 39s):It really takes a toll. It really takes a toll on your psyche in a way that you can't really account for until you go from no space to having space. And then you go, oh my gosh, there's these three specific muscles in my shoulders that have been tense for the entire time I've been living in a city, you know, decades in some1 (6m 56s):Cases. So it's a whole different, I could build a little studio, like all the things. So yeah. So I'm grateful. Never would occur to me, never would have occurred to me. Never.3 (7m 6s):Do you care to say anything about your sister's visit?1 (7m 10s):Well, you know what is yes. And what is so comforting to me again, you know, if you listen to this podcast you're like, Oh my god, Jen, shut up. But about the truth. Okay. The truth is the fucking truth of, and even, even if it changes from person to person, that person's truth is the truth. And my truth is, I feel, So she came and she stayed not with me because I just, that what we were outta town. And then she stayed in my house while we were gone, which was fine with her, with my niece for one night. And then I saw her one day and that was, that was fine. And then she stayed with my cousin and it was, let's just say it was very, the, for me, my experience was, oh, someone else besides me sees the challenges.1 (7m 60s):And that's what I will say about that. There is something about being witnessed and having someone else go. I see, I feel what you're talking about.3 (8m 11s):Yes. Oh, I, I relate very deeply to that because people who are good at1 (8m 19s):Image image management,3 (8m 22s):At image management, a term I like is apparent competent.1 (8m 26s):Oh yes. Oh yes. I love that. I've never heard that. Apparent, competent. That is it.3 (8m 30s):Yes. Many, many people in life are apparently competent because all of their energy and effort goes into projecting very much just that idea and to be at home with them is a completely different thing. And I'm not saying like, Oh, you should always be competent in all areas of life or that I'm competent in all areas of life. I'm just saying like, yeah, there, there are some, some forms of personality disorders and just like, not even that, but just interpersonal problems are so kind of covert. And they're so, because I feel like people say, I feel like people are always trying to look for like the most broad, you know, big actions to determine whether somebody is1 (9m 13s):Whatever, nurse, whatever. They haven't been hospitalized, they've never been in rehab, they still have a house. You're like,3 (9m 20s):What? It's the same kind of mentality that says if you're not like in the gutter with a, with a mad dog in a paper bag that you're not an alcoholic, you know, it completely ignores probably what 85% of alcoholic for, which is highly functioning Correct. People who don't miss work and Correct. You know, maybe even people in their lives would never, ever know that they had a drinking problem. So yeah. So that is validating. I'm happy that for you, that you had that experience and sometimes it takes like 20, 30 years to get that validation. But the truth always, I mean, you know, it's true. That's the thing. It comes to the surface eventually.1 (9m 56s):Well, and the other thing is, I now as where I used to be so afraid of the truth and I still am, look, I I don't like getting, we know this about me, my feedback is hard for me. I'm scared of all the things, but I used to run from the truth like nobody's business in my own ways. Now I sort of clinging to it as, wait a second, wait a second, what is the truth of the matter? Like what are the facts here? Because I feel like that is the only way for me to not get kaka go, go crazy. And it is comforting. I am comforted in knowing that. Like, it was interesting. So I also am taking a solo show, writing class, I'm writing a new solo show, my third one.1 (10m 41s):And I'm just started and I thought, let me take a class with the woman who I taught. I did the first one in oh four in LA with, anyway, but I was saying on Facebook, like I, I, I'm taking this class with Terry and she's magic and I'm so glad I'm doing it and da da da. And she was like, Hey, I have a question for you. Can I quote you? And I was like, Yes. Because in her, in her like, for a and I said, of course it's all true. Like I didn't have to worry that my quote was somehow dirty or misleading or like, not really what I felt like I've done that so much in my life in the past where I've been like, oh shit, I told them I loved them or I loved their stuff, or I loved and I feel inside totally incongruent with that kind of thing.1 (11m 30s):No, I was like, no, these are what, these are my words now. I try to, it doesn't always work, but I try to just be like, okay, like what is the truth? And if someone had to quote me, would I be okay? And I, and I am a lot of the time I was like, of course you can. It's what I, I'm thanking for asking, but also it's what I feel in my bones about that, that you, that you have a magic when it comes to solo show teaching. That's it, it that is the truth. That my,3 (11m 55s):That is so cool. It's cool that you're doing that and I'll, that it, that gave me a reminder I had wanted to say on this podcast because you know, we had Jeremy Owens on the podcast. Yes. And he recently put on his social that he, he was doing it kind of as a joke, but I think he's actually doing it now, which is doing another solo show. And I had messaged him to say, you know, I meant what I said when I told you that you should do this and that I would help you and that goes for anybody cuz I said, I've said that to a lot of people on this podcast. Like, if you need help, you know, if this conversation has reinspired in you, a desire to go and do this other creative thing, please, I'm not saying like, I'm gonna co-write it with you.3 (12m 37s):I'm saying like, let me know if there's something I can do, if I can read it or, or, or bounce it off of you so that that stands for any of our previous guests. But tell us more about what, what's it gonna be about, what are you gonna be talking about? Well,1 (12m 51s):I don't entirely know, but where I'm leading is, it was interesting in this, See the thing I forgot means is that I like writing exercises. I never do them on my own. I never do. So this, she does writing exercises and a meditation before and I really longed and craved that because I spend so much of my hustle these days. How can I bring in income? How can I advance my career in Hollywood? And that is really shuts down the play aspect of all things. And I'm not saying, you know, I'm not saying that you, that I I'm not saying it's bad. All I'm saying is it totally eliminates for me the create like the really raw fun play creativity.1 (13m 37s):Okay? So in this, in this class, I just took it like, I just took the class. I was like, I'll do it. It's a masterclass in solo work, I'll do it. I like her. She called me, I was on the freeway and I was like, I'll do it. So right now the working title is, and also a solo show more or less. And I don't know if that's gonna change, but it is. Like I, and, and then in the exercise we did, we had our first class Sunday, it was all about, I realized that this solo show needs to be for me more of a call to action that that we, the, and it really comes from something you said, which is, I'm paraphrasing, but it's like we are our only hope, which is the good news and the bad news.1 (14m 25s):So like you said, we are the problem, I am the problem. Which is great. And also the, you know, terrible. So that is sort of this solo show is more gonna be about, it's like more activism based, but in a like creative arts activism way and, and not just a funny antidotes about my wacky family. And I mean, I would argue we could argue that like that my last solo show did have that underneath. But I think there needs to be a more like call to action for artists and people like us to start doing the things in the arts world that are gonna like help save the planet. And I don't know what that means yet, but she was like, oh this is like more of an activism piece based on what you're like it has that component to it.1 (15m 11s):And I was like, yeah. And then she said, if there was a banner, we did these cool exercise, she said, there's a banner all over town, whatever town you're in advertising your show, what would it say? And what came to mind in the meditation was it would be a red banner and it would just say, and it would say hope. And then in parentheses it would say sort of, So what I realized is I'm obsessed with the parentheses, like that's where I live. So I live in the world of I love my life parentheses, it's a fucking nightmare. So I love that kind of thing in my writing. And so I was like, okay, I'm really gonna embrace that. So it's like, it's like that, that stuff, I don't know where it's gonna go. I don't know what it's gonna happen.3 (15m 52s):Well two things. One is you have actually thrown out quite a few excellent titles for show, for solo shows. You'll periodically be like, that's the title of my new book or that's the title of my next, my next solo show. Yeah. So you might have to give a little re-listen to some episodes. I wish I could tell you which1 (16m 11s):I will.3 (16m 12s):Okay. The other thing is something that just came up for me when you said about the parenthesis, which I know exactly what you're talking about. I was saying like, oh yeah, she wants to show the good, the bad and the ugly. Oh. And something that occurred to me was like this concept of underbelly. Like you're showing yes, your soft underbelly. We are, I mean when I think when a person is maturing into themselves, that's what, that's the goal is to get to first accepting your own soft underbelly and then also contending with it and then representing it to the world. Because the thing that I've been on recently is like I have done myself and nobody else any favors for the amount of time I've spent misrepresenting myself because my misrepresenting myself has all been based on the lie that I thought there is a person that you are supposed to be, and your job is to be that person and you know, instead of like figure out the person that you are.3 (17m 10s):So, you know, coming into your own power is, is is a lot what we spend, what I spent my thirties about, like coming into your own power and not say that I arrived at it, but that No,1 (17m 23s):But3 (17m 24s):You about that. And then I think my forties are more about coming into my own vulnerability and that both of those things are really two sides of the same coin. Your power and your vulnerability, right? Because you can't have any power unless you're being honest about, you know, what the situation is. Today we are talking to Colin Douglas. Colin Douglas is an actor, writer, director, and documentary filmmaker who has been on absolutely everything. Most recently you've seen him on Barry and I love that for you.3 (18m 4s):But he's been, I joke in the, in our interview that he's been an absolutely every television show ever made. And that's only a slight exaggeration. He's been on Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice and the 2017 revival of Twin Peaks Agents of Shield, Pure genius. He's just been on everything Deadwood. So he's very experienced, he's very wise and he's very warm. So I hope you enjoy our conversation with Colin Douglas.0 (18m 34s):Great.3 (18m 36s):So congratulations Colin Douglas, you survived theater school. You survived4 (18m 42s):Two3 (18m 42s):Theater schools as a matter of fact.4 (18m 45s):I did. I was a glut for punishment actually. Yes. I I couldn't get enough of it.3 (18m 50s):So it was a BFA and MFA both in acting?4 (18m 54s):No, you know what, it was a zero degree. I, I am still just kind of riding by the seat of my pants. I actually, when I attended amda, it was not a degree program yet. Now it is. But back in the day it was basically they just kind of said, okay, go audition. And then when I went to Florida School, the arts, it only had an AA degree and I literally am still to this day two credit shy of my degree because I had booked a job out of Sctc and it was gonna be starting and I was like, I'm not sitting around and getting my degree just so that I can go get a job.4 (19m 42s):So I went, I took the job and I never looked back.1 (19m 45s):I mean that is, here's, I was just talking to someone who went to the theater school last night, my friend Lindsay. And we were talking about how conservatory I wish, I wish that I had done things differently, but it is what it is. But what you are reminding me of just go and audition is like the most valuable piece of advice anyone could have given us, which we never got. Which was now you, the piece of paper that says you have a BFA is not for not, but it's also not, it doesn't directly correlate to getting jobs. Like, it just doesn't. So you, you got a job while you were in school and said, I'm going, you didn't even think about staying or how did that work in your brain?4 (20m 30s):Well it was, it was because I was literally just the two credit shy kind of thing. And actually the class was, it was sort of a lab where I, you know, I had to help strike sets, but I was so busy with doing shows that I never had time to go help out with strike. So it was one of those things, oh okay, I'll, I'll require, I'll get that when I can get it when I have the time. And I never did. And then the tour was starting before the fall session started and I was like, you know what? My only regret honestly was the fact that I felt like, and, and again, it's not, you know, if somebody were to ask me today, you know, should you go to theater school?4 (21m 16s):I would say yes, if that's what really where you wanna hone your craft if you wanna, you know, build your community, but don't, if you're gonna do something like that, go to a program that has an established alumni because that's where your connections are being made when you get out of school is that support network that you have at amda at the time, there really wasn't, you know, when I was there, the biggest sort of claim to fame at the time was Time Daily. She was a graduate of, of Amda. And so it was, it wasn't as if I could reach out to Time Daily all of a sudden.4 (21m 59s):And then Florida School, the arts was, and still is such a small arts school that there really wasn't anybody for me to reach out to. Had I gone to Northwestern, had I gone to Juilliard or Yale or, or or Tish, that I would've had a built-in network of working professionals on the outside. So that was my only regret in that, that if I had perhaps gone to a different theater school, maybe I would've had those connections. But I certainly got the education I felt I needed.3 (22m 34s):Well and also you got the connections while getting paid instead of having to pay, which is was just definitely preferable. And by and speak about, you know, work experience and getting connections. You have been on every television show that has ever existed and tons of films too. So was your experience that as soon as you started working, you were just off to the races? I mean, I'm not suggesting that it's easy because no life of an actor is easy, but have, has it been pretty consistent for you would you say for your career?4 (23m 10s):It's been consistently inconsistent in that,1 (23m 16s):Wait, I just have to say that has to be the name of your book. Okay. I, we were talking about earlier before you got on about titles of shows and books, your book could be consistently inconsistent. The Culin Douglas story, I'm just, I'm just putting it out there. Thank you. Please send me 10% check to my office.4 (23m 32s):Yeah, thanks. No, it really, it was one of those things that I, I had a very dear professor at Florida School of the the Arts, Patricia Kadi, she was the acting instructor there and I was doing all of the plays, I was in all of the productions there and I had kind of become the top dog in the school, so to speak. And she pulled me aside one day and she said, you know, the one thing you're gonna have to realize is you're probably not gonna start working professionally until you're in your thirties.4 (24m 13s):And I, and I didn't really understand what she was saying there. What she was basically commenting on was that I was a young character actor and I didn't look like Jason Priestly, I didn't look and yet I hadn't grown into my framer look either. So I was gonna be in this really sort of, where do we cast him? He's talented but we don't know where to put him. And so I did a lot of theater for a lot of years and then in my thirties is when I was able to transfer into television and film. So what, cause I finally had kind of caught up to my look.1 (24m 45s):Yeah. So what I appreciative aid about that is it sounds like she said it so she said it in a way that wasn't like being a jerk, right? Like my experience was feeling that way except having it told like there is something deficient in you so that you cannot be an ingenue cuz you're too fat, you're too this. So instead of, hey, go do some theater, do all the things and then you'll grow into your look, do not fret. This is like part of the technical side of the business of how a camera sees you and not about your talent. It would've been so much different. Instead it comes down to, I think a lot of people we've talked to from the DePauls, from the Northwestern say, nobody told me that in a way which was, I could make a plan about it.1 (25m 35s):It was always just, well you're never gonna be cast. So by, and instead of hey maybe you could do theater, maybe you could write, maybe you could do something else until Hollywood catches up to the character of you.4 (25m 50s):Exactly.1 (25m 51s):It good, Patricia. Good. Is Patricia still around?4 (25m 54s):She is. And she literally just announced today that she's retiring from teaching. Well1 (25m 60s):Patricia, you did good work and you she did fantastic. You made it so call in part of it sounds like she encouraged you cuz you started with that story of her encouraged you to know that maybe later it would be your time to be on every single television show ever written. But for the twenties and the, you know, you were gonna do some theater and, and get your training right man, and,4 (26m 23s):And I honestly, I didn't completely understand everything she was saying in that little sound bite because, you know, I was, I was sort of standing there saying, Patty, look at all these job offers. I just got out of CTCs, you know, I'm gonna be working like crazy. And she said, No, no, no, don't get me wrong that the work is going to be there. But as far as what you're seeing in your mind's eye of, you know, Helen Douglas tonight on The Tonight Show, that's not gonna happen until you can kind of get into that other stream as it were. How3 (27m 0s):So did that match up? I mean, was that a surprise to you or did that match up with what you already thought about yourself? I don't think any 17 year old, 18 year old necessarily thinks of themselves as a character actor. Although it may just be because it never gets put to you that that's an option when you're a teenager. You know, the option is like, as Bos mentioned, Ingenu or not Ingenu, but they never really say like, Well, but you, you know, you're gonna fit into this different mold. So how did that butt up against what you already thought about yourself?4 (27m 32s):It actually kind of lined up okay with me in, in a weird way because at Florida School, the arts in particular, they were so gracious in the fact that when they picked their seasons, they picked shows that it made sense for me to be the lead in, in that I, I'm giving you an example, we did a production of Our Town and I was the stage manager and, you know, as opposed to being cast as the one of the young, you know, lead ingenue kind of a things. And then we did Bye by Birdie and I was cast in the Dick Van Dyke role.4 (28m 12s):And so they did it in such a way that, you know, or when we did Barefoot in the Park, I was Victor Velasco the old man who lived upstairs. So I was already sort of being primed that I was this character actor and would be gonna be doing that kind of stuff. And then quite honestly, as that look started to emerge, I mean in college I had sort of a flock of seagulls kind of hairdo thing going on, you know, and then it quickly all went away. And I had been playing about 20 years older in film and television and in theater than I've actually always been, you know, I was playing guys in my, when I was in my, you know, thirties, I was playing guys in my fifties.4 (28m 59s):Now I'm in my fifties and I'm playing guys in my in1 (29m 1s):In seventies. And I think that calling, the thing that I'm noticing too is like maybe for men it's a little different too, right? Like there's something about being, like, there's just, and it's a societal thing where like women who are play, like, it's, it's a insult for women when they're like, Oh, we're sending you in for a 50 year old and you're 30. But, and I think maybe if you have a certain kind of ego for a man as well, and we all have egos, I mean, it says, but, and I, I love the fact that you didn't, it doesn't sound like anyway, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, you took it as an insult that they were, that you were going out for roles that were for like the Victor Velasco of the world. You were able to embrace it as you were working.1 (29m 43s):Like that's, so I say this all to say, because I remember in our last class with Jim Ooff, who people call hostile prof and he said to me, You know who you are. And I was like, dying to hear you are Michelle Pfeiffer. That was never gonna happen. But I was dying to hear, he was like, That's who you, he's like, you are the next. And I'm waiting and, and I'm waiting. He goes, Lenny Bruce. And I was like, what the actual fuck is going on? What are you telling me?3 (30m 13s):No idea. What a great compliment that was.1 (30m 15s):I was devastated, devastated. I wanted to quit. I was suicide. Like it was just, But anyway, so what I'm saying is you didn't take that and run with it in a way that was like, I am not Jason Priestly and therefore my life is over. You were able to work and, and embrace the roles. It sounds like4 (30m 34s):I was able to embrace the roles and, and I was getting, okay, you are a young dick fan dyke, you're a young, this kind of a guy. So I was able to kind of make that connection. I honestly were being completely honest here. I think, how do I put this, that it does not sound completely like an asshole. It1 (30m 54s):Doesn't matter. We always sound like assholes here. Go ahead.4 (30m 57s):But at Florida school, the arts, I was one of, I was one of the only straight men at school and therefore undated a lot. So I was not, the fact that I wasn't looking like the young hot stud,1 (31m 22s):You were still getting it4 (31m 23s):Right? I was still getting it. So that didn't it, had it not been like that situation, I think I probably would've started to hyperventilate thinking, well hold it, I'm in my twenties, why are they making me play these old men? And this is affecting, you know, cus group. But that wasn't the case. And so I, I had sort of a, a false sense of ego I guess a little bit. But it was supporting the work that I was doing.3 (31m 50s):Yeah, absolutely. So did you grow up always knowing that you wanted to be an actor? Did you think, did you try any other paths first? Or were you, were you dead set on this?4 (32m 2s):I was dead set when the story goes, that when I was four I asked Santa for a tuxedo to wear to the Emmys and Santa delivered gave me a, a white dinner jacket and spats and stuff like that. So I was, I was ready to go.1 (32m 18s):Oh my god, do you have that picture? Can you please send us that?4 (32m 22s):Oh no, we have moved so many times. When I was growing up, my dad, when I was growing up was an undercover investigative reporter. And so wherever he was basically undercover was where we were living. Wait1 (32m 36s):A minute, wait a minute. Wait a minute, wait. Okay. This is fantastic because I do a lot of crime writing and so does Gina writes and undercover crime reporter father now, right there is sort of burying the lead. What in the hell? He was an undercover, What does that even mean? An undercover, He's not a police officer, but he's an undercover reporter.4 (32m 57s):He was an undercover investigative reporter. Well, what that for a period of time, So I'll give you an ex, there was a senator at one time back in the early seventies who was receiving kickbacks from his employees or hiring people on the books. And those people weren't actually having jobs. And so they would then send him the money. He was getting all of the money.1 (33m 24s):Sure. Like Chicago was like living in Chicago all time.4 (33m 28s):So the, somebody tipped my father off that this was happening. And so he went undercover and, and worked as sort of like an aid and things like that. Or there was a time where he, he worked at a meat packing place or he worked at a funeral parlor that was selling caskets with fake bottoms. And so people would buy these incredibly expensive things and then they would drop them and then they'd open up the hatch and the body would just drop into a pine box and then they would reuse the, the casket.1 (34m 8s):So this is the single greatest thing I've ever heard in my life, and I'm gonna write a pilot about it immediately called Fake Bottom. And it's4 (34m 14s):Gonna see, I've already wrote that was, I actually wrote a spec pilot. That's how I landed my lid agent. Oh, it was because what ended up happening is my dad, much to my mom's chagrin, used me in two of his undercover stings when I was a kid. One time, there was a situation where firemen had been hired and they weren't actually properly trained. It was another one of those kind of kickback situations. So it was a training session and they, I was supposedly, it was a staged event where they were gonna try to test the skills of the firemen or whatever.4 (34m 55s):And so I was gonna, I I practiced with a real fireman being fireman carried up and down a ladder from a second story kind of a thing. But once the word was out that it was an internal sting, they put me into one of those crane baskets. And so I was sort of floating over midtown in, in the basket kind of a thing. And then another time actually, there was a talent agent who was running a kitty porn ring. And so I was sort of used to expose, so to speak, this this person that was actually trying to take advantage of, of kids and parents.3 (35m 38s):Oh my God. Well, two things occur to me about that. One is your family was already full of drama before you came along. I mean, anybody who wants to, right, who wants to do this investigative journalism, Like that's, that's a dramatic person. I love David Carr. I love that kind of personality of per, you know, the person who wants to like really get in there, investigate and just as an aside, like, I'm sorry for the families who paid for those coffins, but at the same time, you know, good, good on them because it's such a waste. So much, many people spent putting mahogany boxes into the ground to to, to, to decompose over time. Okay. So did your parents like that you wanted to be an actor or did they have a different idea for plan for you?4 (36m 19s):Oh, they, they were 100% supportive. The very, very much so from day one, I think, because it was my mom who really sort of stepped in and said, Hey, let's figure out how we can get this new kid who's always the new kid to find his people. And so she took me when I was 11 years old to a local community theater, children's community theater. And they were doing a production, a musical version of The Hobbit. And you know, the intention was that I was just gonna audition and be, you know, number 40 in the background kind of a thing.4 (37m 0s):Third,3 (37m 1s):Third habit from the left,4 (37m 3s):Third habit from the, And so they auditioned and I remember you had to sing a song and God, I have not told this story, you had to sing a song. And I decided to sing tomorrow from Annie because I was me madly, deeply in love with Andrea Ricardo. And we were actually pen pals. And so I went in there and I sang tomorrow and jump cut to that weekend. And my mom came in Saturday morning smiling as I was watching cartoons and she said, You've been cast in the lead as Bill Bos. And that was sort of like, okay, I I I found my people.3 (37m 47s):That's amazing. Please tell us more about your penal with,4 (37m 54s):So I, I just, I, you know, I I had gotten the album when it came out and I listened to it and I memorized it. And even then I was casting myself as either Rooster or Daddy Warbuck, you know. And so somehow I found her address and sent her, you know, a, a letter as we used to write, you know, before texting. And she wrote back and then I wrote back, and then the thing that was really exciting was 20,3 (38m 28s):Wait a minute, are you married to Annie?4 (38m 31s):No, I am not married to Annie. Okay. But 20 some odd years later I was doing a national tour and staying in a hotel in Hershey, Pennsylvania. Andrea was on tour doing a national tour and was staying in the same hotel, kind of bumped into one another and was like, you know, you don't know who I am, but this. And it ended up, it was wonderful because I went to see her show on my dark night and she and her family came to see me on, on the other night. So.1 (39m 7s):Beautiful. Okay, so here we go. Your family's on board and why didn't you just go and strike it out either in New York or anywhere? Why did you end up going to school? Were you like, I wanna learn more, or how did that transition into schooling go?4 (39m 24s):It did, I did wanna learn more. It, it really was because up at that point, the only influences as far as acting I was going was from, you know, the, either the community theater directors or the high school drama teacher who had, you know, aspirations for theater, but was really just doing it because he didn't wanna coach the football team. So I felt like I needed a stronger foundation for myself. And, but always it was sort of like I was going to the theater school because I didn't feel like, Oh, I don't wanna go to a school where I'm gonna have to learn all of these other things that I'm not gonna ever use.4 (40m 7s):Now I look back and go, you know, I wish I had done some of that other stuff because I did not create any kind of a fallback plan for me. It would, this is either gonna work or it's not gonna work and you're gonna be screwed. I1 (40m 21s):Mean, here's the thing, here's the thing. I don't know what you, you two think, but like, there is this two schools of, well there's probably a bajillion schools of thought, but one of them is like, if you have a fallback plan, you will fall back. The other one is not everyone is gonna be a Colin Douglas or a John C. Riley that's gonna work, work, work, work, work, work, work. So a fallback plan for some of us might have been like another avenue to get into the industry, right? But a fallback plan can also literally have people go and not live their dreams and become, you know, actuary scientists because they're afraid. So it's like, it's so individual, which is why I think theater school training is so tricky is because you're taking young individuals who don't know shit and some know what they wanna do, some don't, some are good, some are talented, but not, it's so individual.1 (41m 10s):So it's like when people ask me, should I go to theater school? I'm like, I fucking don't know who, I'm like, who are you and what do you wanna do on the planet? But nobody ever asked me that as a 17 year old. So here we are. Gina, you were gonna say something? Oh,3 (41m 23s):I was just going, if you remember your audition,4 (41m 30s):My audition into theater school. Okay. So I do, I remember my audition into anda a, and again, I already recognizing I was a character actor. I sang if I were a rich man from Fiddler on the Roof, you know, you know, a skinny ass, you know, kid from, you know, suburbia singing that song. And then I did a monologue from a play that I had done in high school. And which1 (42m 9s):One do you remember? Or No,4 (42m 10s):It's okay. It was it, yes. No, actually it was weird because I look back on it now kind of thinking how the soul sometimes prepares. I think sometimes it was a, from a show called Juvie, and I played a young gentleman who was mentally challenged and I got a lot of incredible feedback from, from the role because I had researched, I had, I had gone to the library and this is, there was a thing called Microfish when you would go to the library and you'd have to look up stories on kind of like a big machine. And I did all of these kind of things and research the roles, and I saw images of babies and young people with different kind of cognitive delays.4 (42m 60s):And so I did that. I got into Amda, whatever, again, sort of jumping forward in life. In 1996, my oldest son was born and he happened to be born with Down syndrome. And when I met him for the first time at the bassinet, I immediately went back to that Microfish machine in high school and remembered seeing babies and images of people with Down syndrome. And so I made that kind of connection. So it was sort of like, all right, this is where life was going as far as Florida School, the arts went, I actually didn't audition for that.4 (43m 43s):What had happened is I was at, and I broke my foot during one of the dance classes. They would bring in dance captains from various Broadway shows and teachers routines. And we were doing a routine from cats and I jumped off of a piling and I came down flat for,1 (44m 5s):Let me tell you something. This is what, this is just one of the many reasons I don't care for that musical is that also what are you having people jumping around for that? Aren't I just, anyway, I'm glad they brought, I'm sure it was a great experience in some ways, but like, I just don't care for, that was my first musical I saw. And I even as a kid, I was like, I don't buy this at all. I don't know what's going on here, but I don't like it. But anyway, so you busted your foot. Oh, and can I just say about microfiche? I'm sorry to be an asshole, but like, I could never figure out how to slow the fucking shit down and I never could see a goddamn story, so I gave up on the microphone, so you made it further than me. I was like, why is it going too fast? That was my, that's like, like, that's like so indicative of my life. But anyway, so okay, so you, you broke your foot and so what happened?1 (44m 49s):You had to, why did you4 (44m 50s):So I, I, I broke my foot, I went home to my parents' place who were now living in Florida and kind of rehabbed for a while. I then auditioned for a play for Pirates of Penza, excuse me, that was up, up performances up near St. Augustine, Florida. And I went up there and I was playing Samuel the the second pirate. And the gentleman who was playing the modern major general in the show was actually the dean and artistic director of Florida School of the Arts. And he said to me, If you'd like to come to school, we'll offer you a full scholarship and you can start at the, as soon as the show closes.4 (45m 38s):And so that's what I did. It was like, I just went straight to Flos Bureau Arts and I did not go back up to Amda after my footed here. Helen,1 (45m 45s):It's really interesting, like, and I was talking about, this was someone else yesterday about how one, obviously one thing leads to the next, Oh it was a showrunner actually, that was that I was listening to a lecture and she just said that what I've done is I have walked through doors that have opened to me without a lot of second guessing. I followed my heart in terms of who took interest in me and who opened doors for me. I walked through them. I didn't say no, but, or no, I just did it. And so it sounds like that's what you did. You were like, Oh, full ride, I'm in Florida now. You could have been like, No, no, no, I'm gonna go back to Amda because whatever.1 (46m 26s):But you were like, I'm gonna do this. And it sounds like it worked in your favor, but what was your experience like at Florida? Did you, I mean obviously we know you left early, but did you get stuff out of it? Did you love it? What was the deal?4 (46m 41s):I did love it in the sense that because it was such a small school and because where the school is located, it's in Plac of Florida, which is sort of geographically in the middle of sort of Jacksonville and Gainesville. And so on a Friday night there really wasn't any partying going on. It was all of us getting together and doing monologues for one another, you know, because there wasn't any place to really go. And then as far as the classes went, because it was such a small institution, so many of my classes were literally just myself and professor in their office.4 (47m 26s):And we would do, you know, that's how I learned dialects was literally just, you know, we were working on the Italian dialect or whatever and I would go in and the professor would speak to me in that Italian dialect and then I would have to answer him and that would be the entire class. And then the next week we would do the brooklynese. And so I had all of that and they were very, very gracious to me because when I came in as quote a freshman, I was taking all of the freshman courses, but then they also had me taking all of the second year acting courses as well, sort of accelerating me through the program and then allowing that by doing that I was able to be cast in all of their different productions.3 (48m 15s):So when you did school and enter the workforce, what surprised about sort of the business that maybe you weren't expecting or hadn't been prepared for? For in terms of your training or, you know, and it could have been a happy surprise or, or, or not such a happy surprise, but like what was some I always just feel like there's, people have their list of things. Oh, I never thought the one that people always bring up as coverage, I never thought, when I watched TV shows that they had to do the same thing 50 times.4 (48m 58s):I, I think for, for me, the biggest sort of, even though Patty Crotty, Patricia Crotty had said, you know, Hey, it's gonna be a while before you're gonna start to work. You know, although I did work immediately when I got outta school, it was, it was one of those things where I quickly realized that they really didn't care that I had played Albert and by by Birdie they didn't care that I was in all of the productions. It was basically, no, you've earned the right to stand in the back of a line and you're gonna have to, you know, get up at an ungodly hour, go to equity, sign in at 6:00 AM and then come back at two in the afternoon for your audition.4 (49m 47s):But by the time you come back, if you pick up backstage, you're gonna read that Robert Strong Leonard has already been offered the role that you're auditioning for at two o'clock. So those were sort of some of the realities of, oh, okay, this is not necessarily gonna be the projecting thing that's gonna get me into the room. It's just, it's gonna be more for me that, okay, I feel like I deserve to be here and I'm competent enough in my abilities. But I, I think that was as far as just working in general. But Gina, to answer the question as far as like the thing that I was most surprised by within the industry, I'm, I'm trying to think if there was anything that I really was sort of taken aback by,1 (50m 31s):Well I guess I can ask like, did you, what was your like, like in terms of getting an agent and all that, did anything there go like, Oh my gosh, I didn't understand that I would have to, How did your representation come about? Was that a surprise or did you just get an agent? Cause a lot of our listeners, some of them we talk, you know, we talk about like a showcase or, but you left early and just started working, so what was that transition like in terms of getting representation and going on, on auditions for film and TV or theater? And if you think of anything that surprises you along the way, just let us know. But sure,4 (51m 4s):I didn't have theatrical, I didn't have legit theater representation for a lot of years. I was literally very lucky in that, you know, just using relationships, you know, to help propel me into the next situation that one show would be closing and I would hear about the fact that they were looking for something else. Or I would go to the Southeastern Theater conference and audition and be able to pick up my next year or year and a half worth of work. And I was able to kind of keep it at that point. I finally did get an agent who was gonna cover me theatrically as well as, you know, commercially.4 (51m 46s):And I remember her telling me, she was basically saying the same thing that Patty Crotty had said is that, you know, you know, you're a good actor, I'll put you out there, but it's, it's probably gonna be a while before you're gonna book a commercial or any kind of television cuz you're just really hard to place. She was good to her words. She put me out there and a week later I booked a Budweiser commercial. So I was like, Oh, okay, I think I got this. I, I think the hardest lesson that I had to learn was that because it sometimes came easy, it felt like, like, oh, okay, this is what it was, is I would get say to that chunk of change.4 (52m 29s):And I, it took me a while to figure out that I had to make that chunk of change, stretch as far as I possibly could because I didn't know exactly when the next job was coming from and, and that it was hard when I met and fell in love with my wife who was coming. She had been a model, but she had also worked in the corporate world. And so she was very accustomed to, well no, you make this amount of money every month and this is what you can expect with your expenses. It was hard when we started to realize, oh no, CU just got a great windfall of money, but if you break it down and spread it out over a year, he's not making minimum wage.4 (53m 10s):So, you know, it was a really, that was a hard kind of thing to adjust with.3 (53m 15s):Yes. I mean that's, yes, that's a common story and that's something that they don't teach you about in theater school. They don't teach you money management and how you have to withhold taxes and all kinda stuff. Yeah. So that, that's that, that's, that's a whole education in and of itself. But you were also a writer and director. When did the writing and directing and producing come into your career?4 (53m 40s):The writing actually started in college in that we would have to have monologues for class and I had an affinity to writing the monologues and so I started writing monologues for my classmates for beer money or they would need an audition piece for something in particular. And so I would tailor it to sort of echo whatever play that they were auditioning for kind of a thing. And so it really just sort of came easy for me. And then whenever I was auditioning, my biggest thing was I don't wanna go in there with something that they have seen 3000 times.4 (54m 23s):And so I was like, Okay, you know what? I'm just gonna write my own thing. And it worked, it worked to a degree. And so that's where I sort of started to do it. And then personally after my oldest son Gabe was born, I had a lot of demons to be dealing with. I didn't understand why I had been chosen or whatever, or, or given a child with a disability and, and it took me kind of having to get outta my own way to realize that was the least interesting thing about him. And, but in doing so, I, I started to write in journals and then I ended up writing a one man play that I in turn tour the country with for a handful of years.4 (55m 11s):And it was that play that I then attracted some other attention and then got hired on to do some other writing in script doctoring or whatever. And then as I shared earlier, I wrote a spec script about that time of my life when we were kind of moving into hotels and things like that. And then that kind of just started to snowball. And then I was very fortunate back in 2010, I had the Humanitas Organization, Humanitas Prize. They tapped me as the first recipient of their New Voices fellowship program, which pairs you with showrunners to sort of mentor you in creating a television series.4 (56m 0s):And so I was shared with, paired with Shonda rhymes over at Shondaland and was able to develop a show, which was actually an adaptation of my one man play, about a family, you know, coming to terms and dealing with a child with a disability. But I had already actually had a relationship with Shawnda prior to that because I had gotten cast in an episode of Grey's Anatomy and she and her producing partner, Betsy Beers, put me up for an Emmy for that role. And then when I didn't get the nomination, Shawnda turned around and created a role for me over on private practice.1 (56m 46s):Okay. So you know, all these people, and I guess I'm mindful of time and I wanna know what the hell are you, are you doing now you have this documentary, What is your jam right this second? Colin Douglas. And if you could do anything, what would it be? And tell us about this documentary, because what I don't wanna happen is it's like 10 minutes go by and we haven't heard about the documentary and we haven't heard about like, what is your jam and your juice right this second.4 (57m 13s):Okay. So I, I made the documentary, I started working on it when we got locked out, you know, the world was hurting, the industry was shut down. I couldn't stand in front of a camera, I couldn't direct a bunch of actors in a narrative, but I knew I could still tell stories. And so I, at one point in my career, I detoured and I was an associate show director and a performer at Walt Disney World. I was there for about three years. And the level of talent in those theme parks is just incredible. You know, there are a lot of people who come outta theater schools and they get their job, you know, at Dollywood or at Bush Gardens or at Disney World or Disneyland, and they spend the summer there and then they go off and do whatever else with their life.4 (58m 5s):There are other individuals like the subject of my film, Billy Flanigan, who, he started right after theater school. He went to Boston Conservatory. He then opened up Epcot in 1982 as a kid at the Kingdom and has been working for 40 years straight as a performer out at Disney. When the Disney Park shut down because of the pandemic, Billy was without a stage for the first time in his 40 year career. So what he did is he took it upon himself to start doing singing and dancing telegrams for other performers who were out of work. And then he started to literally take it on the road because he's a cyclist and he started crisscrossing the entire country, delivering these sing in dancing telegrams called Planograms.4 (58m 55s):And my Facebook page was blowing up with, I got Planogrammed, I got Planogrammed and I, so I reached out to some old friends from Disney and I said, I've heard about this name Billy Flanigan for years. He's a, he's a legend. He was a legend 20 years ago when I was working, You know, can you put me in touch with him? And so I spoke with Billy. I reached out to my producing partner and I said, There's a documentary here, because Billy has just been so incredibly selfless. He's always a pay it forward kind of a guy. He's a performers performer, you know, even though he jokes about the fact that he'll get a nosebleed if he's not on center.4 (59m 36s):But it's one of those things where he just really is about making the other people on stage look good. So he's been the face of Disney. But then what ended up happening is he was so busy working and raising an entire family that a handful of years ago, Billy finally slowed down and realized that he had been living a different life than he perhaps should have been. And he came out and it really destroyed his family and, and brought things down. And so you had this guy who day in and day out was still having to give that Disney, you know, RAAs, but behind the scenes, as we all know, his performers, the show's gotta go on.4 (1h 0m 20s):And so his heart was breaking. And so I said to Billy, Look, if we tell your story, we're gonna have to tell all of it, because I feel like you sharing your humanity and your pain is gonna help other people out there within the L G B T community who are feeling bullied or feeling like they don't have their place. So if we can do this, this is, this is sort of our mandate. And he said yes. And his family said yes. And, and thankfully not as a direct link to the film, but I shared the final cut with Billy and his family, because obviously I had to have their final approval. And Billy called me and said, This film is helping heal my family now, because it had given them that creative distance that it was no longer them, it was these other people up on a screen talking about a period of their life.4 (1h 1m 13s):So right now, the film, it premieres digitally on October 7th, and then is available on D V D November 15th. And then after the first of the year, it'll be looking like landing on one of the major streamers.3 (1h 1m 29s):Oh, that's fantastic. I'm so excited to see it because I watched the trailer and that thing that you were describing about, you know, he's, he's, he's gotta always have a stage that comes through from the first frame. You see him, you think, Wow, this guy is like a consummate performer in a way that I could never imagine. I mean, yes, I, I love to be on stage. It's fantastic, but I, I don't have this thing where like, you know, I've gotta be performing every second. And that was really clear. And I didn't know, I didn't glean from the trailer that he was doing that for fun for other performers. I thought he was just starting his business with the singing telegram. So that is even more interesting. Okay, that's really cool.3 (1h 2m 9s):So after the first of the year, it'll come out on a streamer. And actually when you know which one it is, you'll let us know and we'll, we'll promote it on our socials. And I4 (1h 2m 17s):Wanted, but you can preorder now the DVD and the digital.1 (1h 2m 22s):Yeah. I didn't mean to like cut us off from Shonda land, but I really wanted to make sure that we talk about this documentary because I think that it is taking your career and your life in, it's like it's made it bigger and about other things other than, I mean, it's like there's a service component to documentary work that like, I think is not always there in other kinds of media. That documentary work is like at once, for me anyway, really personal, but also universal and also has a great capacity for healing. And so, or at least the truth, right? Like what is the truth?1 (1h 3m 2s):So that's why I wanted to make sure we covered that. But if there's other things you wanna say about your career and like what you're doing now and where you wanna go or anything else, I wanna give you the opportunity, but I wanted to make sure, So I didn't mean to cut off your Shonda land story because I know people are probably like, Oh my God, tell more about Sean Rhymes. But I wanted to talk about the, the Billy documentary.4 (1h 3m 24s):I appreciate that so much. No, I, I, you know, just to sort of bookend the, the documentary, I never felt like it was one of those things that I knew I could tell stories, but I didn't feel like I had any business telling the documentary. I don't necessarily even gravitate towards documentaries, but I just felt like, hold it. This truly is a story that that needs to be told and can maybe bring about a little bit of healing. And that's what I think good films and television do that you, we, we see ourselves mirrored back in many ways and we feel less alone.4 (1h 4m 5s):And so I felt like if I could do that with a narrative, maybe I can do it with a, a documentary. That's not to say that I wanna become a documentarian, because it's not that I wouldn't if the opportunity ever presented itself, but it's the same way in which, you know, writing a narrative feature, it's like, well, I've gotta be compelled to wanna tell this story kind of a thing. And this just happened to be the medium in which to tell it as opposed to making a, you know, a, a film about a guy named Billy who wants to start out being a performer.1 (1h 4m 40s):And I think that you've said a really good word that we talk about sometimes in other ways on this show and in my life I talk about is being compelled. So when someone is compelled to do something, I know that the art created from that feeling of being compelled is usually authentic, true necessary, and, and, and, and, and sometimes healing. So I love the word what doing projects that were compelled. So anything else that you're compelled to do right now?4 (1h 5m 14s):Work great, really, you know, I I, I really, I I still even after, you know, making this, this film, I, I am still very much an actor at heart and I love being on camera. I love the collaborative experience working with other actors. You know, I was very, very fortunate this past season to to work on Barry with Bill Hater and Bill, I guess if I, it was like, what's next? What's my next jam? I would love to be able to emulate what Bill is doing. You know, Bill is the lead. He's also writing, he's also directing all of the episodes.4 (1h 5m 58s):You know, I joked with him that he also ran craft services because it was literally doing all those things and just watching him effortlessly move from being Barry back to Bill, giving me a note and then giving a note to the DP and then stepping back into Barry was just a really wonderful thing. And it's like, you know what, if I can do that, and I have other friends and, and mentors like Tom Verica, Tom actually directed me in that first episode of Grey's Anatomy. And he and I have since become dear friends. He's now the executive producer and resident director on Bridger.4 (1h 6m 39s):He also was the resident director and producer on inventing Anna. And he and I have developed a narrative film that we're looking to produce as well. And, and, and so again, and yet, you know, Tom as sort of an aspiration or an inspiration for me. And he started out as an actor himself. And then, you know, he directed a lot of Grey's Anatomy and then the next thing you know, he's playing Vila, Viola Davis' husband on how to Get Away with Murder. And then he was also the lead producer on Scandal. So it's like, you know, not being defined by what this industry wants to put you in.4 (1h 7m 20s):I feel like I'm finally at the point in my career where Colin can direct a documentary and he could write something for somebody else and he could act. And, and again, you know, from day one when I, when I left Flow Arts early to go out and do the job, it's just because I wanna keep working. Yeah.3 (1h 7m 38s):And that's, that's, everybody says that. Everybody says, I just wish I could be working constantly. Cuz it's where it's where all the fun of, of the work is, you know, not auditioning and getting head shots and whatever. It's, it's, it's doing the work. By the way, Barry is how I came to ask you to be on this podcast, because I didn't watch it when it first came out. I, I kind of came to it late and of course binge the whole thing and it's fantastic. And, and I immediately went and looked up every single actor to see who went to theater school because I, I would love to have them all. What a fantastic show and what an interesting kind of nice little parallel somehow with your documentary and, and also your own story.3 (1h 8m 18s):There's a lot about actors like figuring out what they're doing on screen and, and kind of reconciling that with their offscreen life or, or even just with their career. Do I wanna be this type of actor? Do I wanna be this type of person? You know, Ha and Bill Hater has seamlessly gone, I mean, once upon a time you would not have really thought of a Saturday Night Live person making quite this kind of crossover. And the humor in that show about actors is so perfect. I've ne I've seen things that have come close to that, but I've never seen something that you're just dying laughing if you know anything about the acting profession, Right?3 (1h 8m 58s):Yeah. Or were you gonna say that?1 (1h 8m 59s):I was gonna say that. And also that like, his account, So I have suffered, you know, from panic attacks and anxiety disorder and his journey through that and with that has given me so much hope as a artist because he was one of the first people I knew, especially from snl, especially from comedy, to say, I was struggling with this and this is how I dealt with it. So it didn't totally destroy my life. And he could have chosen to be like, I'm having panic attacks on set at Saturday Live. I'm done, I'm done. But he worked through it and now is doing all of this. So it gives me a lot of hope. So if you talk to him, tell him there's a late, an anxious lady that really feels like I can, I can really reclaim myself as an artist and even maybe thrive through the anxiety.4 (1h 9m 50s):No, I, I, I so appreciate that, Jen. I really do. You know, I have dealt with panic attacks over the years, you know, again, being that new kid, I was kind of predisposed to, Oh my gosh, you know, and luckily I've never had it within my art. It's always been on the other side. But the way in which Bill has navigated all of that is really truly just, you know, motivating and inspiring on so many different levels. And I think the thing that I also recognize is the fact that Bill never had aspirations to be on snl. He wanted to be a filmmaker, you know, he was editing, he was doing all these types of things and he sort of fell in backwards to groundings and, and all that kind of stuff.4 (1h 10m 38s):And somebody saw him and said, Hey, let's do it. It's sort of like he had to kind of take that detour to be able to get back to doing the kind of things that he really wanted to be doing, you know, Which is great for me because I look at like, my time at Disney, okay? I never would've imagined that that brief time at Disney would've been able to fuel me in that it brought back into my life to allow me to direct a film about one of their performers 20 years later.1 (1h 11m 6s):It's a, your story. I'm so glad you came on because your story is a story about the, the consistent inconsistencies and the detours that aren't really detours. And for me, like just being like, I'm just knowing now going into into meetings, being a former therapist for felons. Like that is the thing that people are really interested in. And I
Nucleosynthetic yields of intermediate-mass primordial to extremely metal-poor stars by P. Gil-Pons et al. on Tuesday 13 September Abridged. We aim to better characterise the evolution and fates, and determine updated nucleosynthetic yields of intermediate-mass stars between primordial and EMP metallicity (Z=1e-10, 1e-8, 1e-7, 1e-6 and 1e-5). We also probed uncertainties in the nucleosynthesis of the oldest intermediate-mass stars during the asymptotic giant branch (AGB) phase. We analysed the evolution of models from their main sequence, through the thermally pulsing AGB (TP-AGB), to the latest stages of their evolution, using the Monash-Mount Stromlo stellar evolution code MONSTAR. The results were post-processed with the code MONSOON, which allowed for the determination of the nucleosynthetic yields of 77 species up to 62Ni. As reported in former works, we identified proton ingestion episodes (PIEs) in our lowest-mass lowest-Z models. Models of Z=1e-10 and Z=1e-8 in a narrow initial mass range around 5 Msun experience the cessation of thermal pulses, and their final fates as type-I1/2 supernovae cannot be discarded. All the models of initial mass of about 6-7 Msun experience a corrosive second dredge-up and undergo significant metal enrichment in their envelopes. This allows them to develop a solar-like TP-AGB or TP-super-AGB, ultimately becoming white dwarfs. Except for those undergoing the cessation of thermal pulses, all of our models show the nucleosynthetic signatures of both efficient third dredge-up and hot-bottom burning, with the activation of the NeNa cycle and the MgAlSi chains. This leads to the creation of vast amounts of CNO, with typical [N/Fe] > 4), and the characteristic abundance signature [N/Fe] > [C/Fe] > [O/Fe]. Due to differences in input physics (mostly related to convection and convective boundaries), our nucleosynthetic yields present dramatic differences with respect to recent results existing in the literature for intermediate-mass models of similar metallicities. arXiv: http://arxiv.org/abs/http://arxiv.org/abs/2209.05587v1
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Intro: Nightmare, revisited. Let Me Run This By You: Gina's petty bullshit.Interview: We talk to the co-Artistic Director of Steppenwolf Theatre, Glenn Davis, about the Stratford Festival, King James, You Got Older, The Christians, being a producer with Tarell Alvin McCraney, Anna D. Shapiro, Audrey Francis, Rajiv Joseph, Alana Arenas, coming from a political family, pay equity, DEI, Seagull, Downstate, regret.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Polizzi. We1 (11s):Went to theater all together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (16s):Years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it1 (20s):All. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Yeah, because the Handmaid's tale came true since we last talk.2 (36s):Oh my God. I was just preparing to say to you my new favorite party question, not that I ever go to parties is what country are you going to move to when they ask you to be a handmade? Because I think the trick is the timing, you know, like there's going to be a point of no return,1 (52s):Right? You could2 (54s):Go to,1 (54s):Yeah, I guess I could, I feel like things might be worse there in some ways, but not eventually. Maybe not like now you're right. It's a timing thing, because right now it might be worse. But in about, within a couple of years, it could be better. So you're right. It's a timing thing. So maybe the idea is to like get passports. Well, the problem is when you get one passport, you have to turn in another, I think, unless you're a secret double agent and doing illegal things, like, I don't know that you can be a duel. Oh, I'm confused. We need, that's what we need a guest on that knows about passports.2 (1m 32s):Well, I don't know anything about passports, but I will say I, the reason that I would be allowed to have dual citizenship in Italy is because I can prove, you know, that my ancestors came from there. So I probably the same thing is true for you1 (1m 50s):Only2 (1m 50s):Have to go back one generation immigrants lady1 (1m 54s):Over here.2 (1m 55s):Right?1 (1m 55s):Right. Yeah. It's interesting. I, yeah, I, there are a lot of, I mean, this whole thing has been this whole overturning Roe vs. Wade has been, it has been horrific. And also because I've come from things from this and as you do too, like the psychological lens is trauma lens. I'm like, okay. The reactions, especially on social media have been wild. So what I'm noticing is it's even more hand Handmaid's tailie in that people then other women aren't then sort of policing other people's responses to this.1 (2m 37s):Meaning people are like, well, I don't know why you're shocked. So instead of saying, yes, you can have your reaction. People are mad that women are shocked. Other women are like, well, what did you think was going to happen? We, and I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is part of the deal. Like let people have their responses, let them, so I am not shocked, but that does not mean that it hurts any less or that it, it is my job to tell someone that their outrage is not justified or not appropriate.2 (3m 15s):I mean, that's like, that's like telling a little kid, well, your dad hits you every time he gets drunk. What's why are you so surprised? You know, it's like, well, that doesn't make it hurt any less. That doesn't make me any less fearful. The feeling that I have in my body right now is the feeling that I had on election night in 2016. You know, I don't know if I ever told you my story about that, but just like every other reasonable person in the world, I completely assumed Hillary Clinton would win. And I wore my little pants version of a pantsuit to vote. I came home and I had, I didn't invite anybody over, but I made, I had like snacks, like it was a super bowl. And I put up a big piece of paper like that paper we wrote on when we were doing our, our TV show and with a map and I was gonna, I was marking the electoral votes, teach my kids about the electoral college.2 (4m 10s):And it's like, and it's just starts going, okay, well, that's not, that's not too bad. And then, and pretty early on, I realized what was happening. And I became immediately exhausted. And I went up to my bed and I fell asleep. And in the middle of the night, I rolled over to check my phone and I saw the confirmed, the worst had happened. And now I have that feeling again. I have that feeling of like, there's no hope.1 (4m 40s):This2 (4m 40s):Is, this is all bad.1 (4m 43s):I, I, I totally hear you. I, miles is famous for saying that. I knew that Trump was gonna win. And I did not, of course, but what I knew was when I went to the polls, it was the weirdest thing. There was this old, weird white guy, and this was in Evanston still. And this old, weird white guy in Evanston, which is very, very, very democratic. But he was handing out these flyers that were like very pro-Trump and very like Trump is going to win and he should, anyway, I had this sinking feeling. I was like, oh wait, wait, wait, this is Evanston.1 (5m 24s):And this guy is like, really sure. And also he seems like kind of a crack pot, but kind of not. And I, there was the first time at the polls where I was like, oh no, oh no, no, no, no, no. I have a bad feeling about this. And then we went to a friend's house, big mistake for an election night situation. And as the returns started coming in, people started at the party getting drunker. And so getting sadder and getting crazier and saying things like, well that this is fine. Like I'll just move to Italy or I'll just move to. But like, it was like the, the, the denial and the alcohol mixing was really, really, really, really depressing.1 (6m 8s):And I was like, I got to get out of here. And so we left before it was called, of course. And, and we, and it was, but I did have this sinking feeling when, when that, when the dude at the, it wasn't at the polls, it was like, I had gone to whole foods afterwards. It's right. And this guy was like putting leaflets on everyone's car that was like, basically get ready for Trump. And I was like in a good way. And I was like, oh shit. If this is happening at Evanston, we've got a problem area. So I wasn't shocked either, but I was very dismayed. And the feeling I have now is that like, literally, I feel like, like I kind of have a migraine today and I feel like I've had a migraine since 1975. That's kind of the feeling I have.1 (6m 49s):Like every time something like this happens, I feel like, oh, this feeling again, I have this feeling that I am exhausted and my head hurts and yeah. And then online, it's just a cesspool and some things are great and people are organizing. And, but some things are just, you know, a lot of people we all, as humans get, we just love to start censoring people's feelings and emotions about a tragedy.2 (7m 19s):Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But also that behavior is just like, I am trying to control you because I feel so out of control of myself. And I kind of like, doesn't even really register that much to me. But on Saturday I went to a rally and, you know, just like about 20 minutes from my house. And it's always a good feeling to do something when, when you feel like there's nothing to do. So that was great. And there was about a hundred people there. So that was great. And the, the person who was organizing it was a woman. So she, she literally said the very first words, but it was just to introduce this next speaker, who was a man.2 (8m 6s):And then after that was another man. And then after that was another man. So it was five men spoke in a1 (8m 11s):Row about this.2 (8m 16s):Yeah. Well, okay. So in the moment, the first person who spoke was our Senator Richard Blumenthal. Okay. That, Hey, he came here, that's pretty great. And he, and he has a very good record of voting the way that I agree with for women's rights, people's rights, human rights. So that felt okay. And then his son is also in politics, his1 (8m 45s):Son.2 (8m 46s):So then his son spoke and his son gave this speech that I could tell, like, I could tell them he did this thing. Or if like he was mimicking the cadence of how political speeches go, where you say three sentences on the fourth sentence, you, you get louder because that's when everybody's going to applaud. But then nobody applauded.1 (9m 8s):And he2 (9m 8s):Was real confused. He was real confused anyway, but by the fourth man who got up did say, I think I'm the fourth man in a row to be speaking here. You know, he was kind of at least trying to acknowledge it. And I'm of two minds because on the one hand, I think thank God that there are men in positions of power, who, who do agree with, you know, caudifying row, but at the same time, in a more like, step, take a step back way. I'm just going like, yeah, but this is the problem. This is the problem. This is the problem that only your voice matters.1 (9m 51s):Well, I think it, for me, it's what I call in LA, at least the giving tents to the houseless situation. So we're giving tends to it's the exact same thing. Right. We're giving tends to people that have no home. Okay. So they have shelter now. Okay. But what, what are we going to really get down to the real issue of what's happening here? So, so2 (10m 15s):Yeah. Why are they homeless and what are the services that they, okay,1 (10m 18s):Why are we not asking the big questions? And I think we, as people are asking the big questions, but the answers are so going to have to change the way the empire works, that nobody is going to, we, we're not really answering the questions. Right. So I think there's right at the, every I saw this and I don't know if this is accurate, but I saw something that the average, the empire last 250 years, and we're at 2 452 (10m 51s):Talk motherfucker. Yeah.1 (10m 54s):So, so I feel like, yeah, people are very afraid to talk about civil war. People are afraid, look, it's a scary thing. And, and, and Nope, Nope, nobody really wants that, but I don't understand where else we're headed. So, so while I don't like it, it's the same thing with the, with the response of people while I don't like that this is happening, it is happening. So I'm going to just say, okay, like, I, I, I, I am not, I don't have any face that we are interested in doing anything else, but, but leaping towards extinction.1 (11m 39s):That's how I feel like, I'm not sure what else we're going to do because I'm, I'm looking at facts and I'm looking at what's happening in, in, you know, obviously climate change wise. And I'm like, oh, we're, we're making choices. And right. And also people are probably going to be like, oh, well, there are people doing good work. And that is true. There are a lot of people doing good work. It's just seems like the people that are making decisions are the people, you know, with the most power are not doing good work are doing, I don't know what they're doing, but they're, they're, they're doing capitalism and what's best for, for, for their pocket.1 (12m 19s):And that's. Yeah.2 (12m 21s):But we, even1 (12m 22s):Though it's about money,2 (12m 23s):It's about money. And it's also about it's about money and it's about getting reelected because the, because the point of, you know, the reason that all these men's, they were all politicians and they were just, all right, it's all running for reelection. And that's the other thing is miss me with your false, like, I'm not saying to anybody on that stage had false promises, but there's quite a lot of good politicians, you know, as good as they can be, who run on these campaign promises. And they never deliver because they have a hard time, you know, getting their, their fellow senators and so forth to agree with them.2 (13m 3s):But yeah, now we're being selected out. I mean, like, there's just really no other way to look at it. And I guess I could say, I guess we deserve it.1 (13m 19s):Let me run this by you.2 (13m 27s):However, all of this doesn't mean that I don't still get involved in petty bullshit. Like I did.1 (13m 35s):Well, tell me, tell me all about that's fantastic.2 (13m 38s):We have this God damn fucking bitch of a neighbor that I, I mean, she's just the repository for my rage right now. You know, it's like, it's not really about her, but she she's, you know, she's the person who, when we first moved into this house, very friendly came over, introduced herself. We had kids similar ages, she's at our house for a while. Chatting. She leaves, she calls me 20 minutes later to, to, in an alarmed fashion to tell me that my children who at the time were six and eight or whatever it had had crossed the street without me there.2 (14m 21s):And that this was obviously going to be a big problem for me. And I, I mean, that just kind of sealed the deal. We, we tried to be friends. She, she started one of these multi-level marketing. She was selling jewelry. I bought her dumb ass jewelry, you know, and it's just been one thing after the other. And, and she's like the nosy neighbor. Who's never missing an opportunity to tell everybody what they should and shouldn't be doing. And she has these two really out of control dogs that just bark constantly. And she walks them or attempts to walk them. And she, and no other dogs basically can be on the street, you know, without there being a big kerfuffle.2 (15m 7s):Now, when I'm walking my dog and I see her coming, I turn the other way a, because I really don't want to see her, but also because I don't want to go through the whole thing of my dog. Yeah. It's all thing. Right. Well, my husband doesn't avoid things like that.1 (15m 22s):Well, I've miles wouldn't even notice until it was too late, but I feel like Aaron is more like, I'm going to just walk my dog.2 (15m 30s):He's like, it's my fucking street and my dog. And we still live in an America where you're free. You're free to walk your dog. So she's walking. So he's walking the dog and she's coming towards and she's doing her usual thing. And then she said, and this was not the first time she said this. She tells him it's not really a great time to be walking your dog right now as if like she gets to go to1 (15m 54s):No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.2 (15m 58s):Well, my in-state, I really wanted to go fly into a rage over to her house. And I, luckily I didn't do that. I did go for a walk and walk by her house, both my fingers up. And I thought, well, if I saw her at my dream,1 (16m 14s):What I would say is2 (16m 15s):I tell you to take those Stella and dot necklaces and choke and hang yourself with them. But they're so cheap. All you'd get is a green net.1 (16m 23s):Yeah. You just break it. Wouldn't do the job. It wouldn't do the job. Oh my.2 (16m 31s):But in a way, you know, having these petty things is sort of life affirming right. In this weird way. It's like at the end of the day, you're just like, oh yeah, it's just, you don't like your neighbor. People sometimes don't like their neighbors. It's not as much.1 (16m 46s):What did, what did your husband say to her? Nothing.2 (16m 50s):I mean, he was just like, I I'm walking my dog. I mean, like, I think he was just so flummoxed by the whole thing. Like, is this person really trying to tell me God? Yeah. That's yeah. I think, I think he was done1 (17m 5s):The audacity. Yeah. I, I, I, yeah, I hate, I hate her already. And I also think the real issue is fucking, you feel terrible that you cannot control your dogs and you have it done with the rest of us dumb, but responsible fuckers have done, which is train our goddamn dogs. Doris, right now I'm paying an, a great amount of money. So she can go to fucking Frenchie school so that when she sees2 (17m 35s):Her all about1 (17m 37s):God, so she doesn't jump on people and she doesn't do well. Okay. So when we Doris is, so I did not understand that when even, okay. So Frenchies are bred to be completely dependent on humans. Okay. So like, meaning back in the day, they're not the kind of dog that's bred to go out on their own. They're highly dependent. They're like needy fucking things. Right. Okay. Great. But that doesn't mean what I'm understanding is they still need pack training because the pack, we are not their pack. It's so funny. Like I am not a dog and miles is not a dog. We don't understand dog.1 (18m 18s):And so even these like sort of boot, you know, like fancy bougie dogs need pack training, which I was so Cesar Milan always says like, you know, like Eden, these designer ass dogs need fricking socialization. And I thought that meant she just needed to be around people. And like, she needs to be around dogs. That will correct her. And so there is this guy who's obsessed with dogs that lives in, in the miracle mile. I thought it was west Hollywood. I don't know where I am. Anytime I cross over I'm like anywhere is away from Pasadena. So my friend was like, listen, there's something called the school. And they also have like Frenchie Fridays and they ha it's like a very Frenchie centric dog school.1 (19m 6s):And they bring in this trainer, that's a protege of Cesar Milan, but everyone can say their approach. I could say I'm a protege of Cesar Milan probably. But anyway, and they play Tibetan singing bowls for the dogs and they get them to calm down and they, and it's a lot of Frenchies, there's like 10 Frenchies that go there. And so I said, all right, I'm going to give it a chance because Doris is great. She's just a tip, very typical Frenchie. And she gets very excited and she doesn't know how to calm herself down. So she pees inside and she will jump on you. And she's really mouthy still at a year. And so I was like, okay, well, like I need to, and, and she she's missing.1 (19m 48s):You can tell like, she's missing. Ideally we'd get another dog, but there's no way in hell in a one bedroom. That's this small. I would ever get another dog, especially not another Frenchie. So I was like, what, what to do, what to do. And this guy is like, that runs, this school will send you recaps of the class today in Frenchie class we learned. And then he will explain all the things that we learned. I'm not there. He's not, it's the dogs. It's like so funny. And then there's pictures. So she's doing great, but it is a schlep. It is 35 minutes. Each way. It is expensive. It is.1 (20m 28s):So what I am saying is those of us who fucking don't want to be like your neighbor and are like, you know what? I'm going to confront the fact that my dog needs some work and that whatever that we are doing miles and I isn't quite cutting it. And she's not behaving in a way that's going to make her friends like with people or with dogs. What do I do about it? I don't say to other people, it's your fault.2 (20m 52s):Somebody else's fault.1 (20m 54s):I have no goddamn money. I'm spending the money and the time.2 (20m 59s):And there you have hit upon one of the very hardest parts of parenting, which is, and you've talked about this before on the podcast, getting feedback, negative feedback about your child is so demoralizing you at once, feel embarrassed and enraged. You feel enraged with the person. You feel enraged with your kid, for With yourself, for not doing a good enough job, such that this wouldn't be happening. Yeah. It's really, really hard. And everybody has to get to the point that you have already gotten to luckily, which is okay, well, I'm this, the good news is the bad news is I'm the source of this problem.2 (21m 44s):And the good news is I'm also the solution to,1 (21m 46s):I think we don't know how to make a lot of us. We don't know how to make friends. Right? So this lady, instead of being like, oh my God, maybe I should just like, say to people, you know, like she could do so many things. People can do so many. She could send a letter to each person on the block say, look, I have these asshole dogs. I don't know what to do. If you have fucking suggestions, besides euthanizing them, let me know. I would love that. Or can you help me? Or I'm so sorry. They're assholes. I don't know what to do. I'm I'm working on it or I'm stuck. Just let people know. And then you make friends. And then when you walk down the street, people are gonna be like, oh, there's those crazy asshole dogs.1 (22m 29s):Just she's she's trying at least,2 (22m 31s):Right. Yes. There is a universe in which a person has crazy dogs like that. And they allow, first of all, they allow for the rehab. They allow us to acknowledge the reality that it's your crazy dog. I mean, that's, that's the other thing I feel like, I feel like we're stopped at level one, which is she won't acknowledge that her dogs are crazy level two. She won't do something about it. You know,1 (22m 59s):I'd like level one. It's like level one is like you were saying it like it takes some, you got to just really get to the point of being accepted, having acceptance that what things are going to go horribly wrong. And a lot of times it's your fault in some way. And a lot of times it isn't, but they still go wrong. And like, I just, I was talking about this a lot yesterday choice points when we're at choice points. And I think it's really easy to be like, oh, that, you know, people choose bad things to happen to them. I think that's garbage people choose to be with, you know, houseless, garbage. I don't buy that. But what I do buy is I know plenty of people with inner and outer, especially outer resources that don't date.1 (23m 45s):They, they do not meat choice points with any sort of ownership and accountability. So they're just like, they don't have, they think they have no choices, but to be an asshole, it's not true. It's not true many times they're you could have my friend taken a turn neighbor, whoever politician and said, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait, I have a choice here. So it's interesting. It's like, just because there is this sort of bullshit, a Wu movement to like over to like blame the victim. Yeah. That's true. But I think there is also a willingness to excuse behavior because people feel that people are limited.1 (24m 26s):Fuck you limited where you don't like, you know, so there's, there's a line. And I think that we, that the black and white thinking of like, you know, all good, all bad. All everyone chooses everything. It's not, it's just not the way it works. But like, yeah. So I,2 (24m 43s):No, it's not the way it works. You're so your thing recently is all about choice points. My thing is all about dissociation and, and I feel, I think I've hit on in the past. I've always said the reason I don't get along with anybody in my town is like, it's all Puritan and whatever. And that's probably true too, but there's another deeper thing. Because a lot of times I will meet somebody and I was trying to define what's the immediate thing that within seconds of talking to somebody, you can proceed. Cause you feel this is a, this is going to, this might go in a good direction for me it's they don't seem completely dissociated.2 (25m 25s):Right. And people are going to hear that and think, I mean, a bunch of people with multiple personalities, that's not what I1 (25m 31s):Mean. Yeah.2 (25m 34s):I really just mean the kind of person who says, for example, you know, my dogs are not crazy. My dogs are not crazy and my dogs are not crazy or my life is not in shambles. My marriages I'm shambles. My kids are not whatever, like whatever it is, there's a lot of, you know, people have to do so much work to hold up. These myths about themselves and their families and their lives. And I get it because to be in touch with the reality of one's life or one situation is completely overwhelmed.1 (26m 7s):So painful too. It's so painful.2 (26m 11s):It's so painful. But so, but like I need, in order to have a thing with a human, I need to be able to look at them and have some vague semblance that they're not in another, on another planet now. Sometimes I get past that and I, and it's like, okay, but I still just don't like you, right. For whatever reason. But I think that's the majority of the people I encounter in life or in some type of a dissociative place. And maybe it's because of the pandemic and maybe it's because things have been a shit show for the last several years, but that w that thought really clarified for me.2 (26m 51s):Okay. Yeah. This is the, this is like the stumbling block I have with a lot of people. I have a friend right now who, I mean, she's, she's kind of a friend, but she she's one of these people, like the day we met, she started referring to me as her best friend kind of, kind of a thing. And she likes to drink a lot. And so I kind of pulled back on the relationship. And during the pandemic, I had a pretty good reason to, and after that she's been contacting me and she's just not really kind of getting the hint. So I decided to take the opportunity the last time she contacted me to say, well, you know, like things aren't really going that great, like this and this and this, no response, no response, because what she wants for me is to validate the myth that she doesn't drink too much.2 (27m 41s):And that everything is fine in her life. Right. And when I want to talk about how things are not fine, she's not interested.1 (27m 49s):Yeah. That's really a telltale sign. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that it is. Yeah. And then I take it a step further, which is in my brain, which is I get angry because I have lived, I have spent so much time, energy, sweat, and, you know, sweat equity in looking at the painful stuff that I just can't perpetuate the circus show that that it's okay.2 (28m 27s):Well, today we are talking to Glen Davis. Glenn Davis is one of the hardest working busiest people we have ever met. He is the artistic director of Steppenwolf theater in Chicago. He's just closed a production of king James, which had also been a Steppenwolf. He just closed it at the mark taper forum in Los Angeles. He has a production company with Trell, Alvin McCraney, and they've got 10 projects on the slate right now. He's a writer, he's a director, he's a performer, he's a producer. And he is an artistic director. So please enjoy not our, it was just boss, boss, his conversation with Glenn Davis.4 (29m 22s):I gave it to my office. You survive theater school, but mostly I want to ask what's happening with you right now. Tell me what are you doing and what are you feeling and how are you today?5 (29m 34s):Right now? I am doing great. I am doing a play here at, in LA, at the mark taper forum called king James. We have been here for over a month and we closed this Sunday.4 (29m 50s):All right. So here's my question to you. We talked to our first attempt and it goes so well in terms of our tech, but so you went to the theater school. I just finished teaching at a theater school. I don't know if I'm going back. They have a new Dean coming in. Yeah. Who? I had a meeting who asked to have a meeting and she was lovely if you had, I'm asking this5 (30m 11s):Question.4 (30m 12s):Yes. So if you had to go back, would you have gone to a theater conservatory? Would you do it again? Would you go to a conservatory for acting training to5 (30m 24s):Theater school specifically, or just one4 (30m 26s):In general and then to the theater school specifically?5 (30m 30s):Yes. Yes. I would say at the very least, even if I didn't learn anything, I made some of my strongest friendships at the theater school.4 (30m 40s):You, you have, you have not only kept in touch, but you are thriving alongside people that you went to school with. So you would have done done it again. Okay. Favorite? What do you, what kind of art do you want to make my friend? Like, what is your, if you had, I'm asking this to all my, our guests, we just have to someone. And I said like, what are we doing here on this planet? And what kind of art do you want to make?5 (31m 6s):I guess I would say art that is impactful and challenges. Its audiences and challenges are sort of moral and ethical codes. Our identity, our idea of what we think is right or wrong in the world.4 (31m 24s):Can you say more about that?5 (31m 25s):Yeah. I did a play a few seasons ago called downstate and that this does exactly right.4 (31m 33s):Yeah. Intense. Yeah. Intense I side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's, it's about people that live in like a halfway house.5 (31m 42s):Yeah. They're in a group home. It's five sex offenders who have, who have been released from prison, but into a group home. And so they have to figure out how to, you know, assimilate back into normal society. And you go into that play, you know, with your most folks have, I would imagine, have their own, very strong opinions about sex offenders, you know, pedophiles full stop, you know, and then this play the best way I can explain it is that it makes you reconsider what you think of those people when they, when they sort of visceral level, you, you go in thinking, okay, I know I don't need to explore this.5 (32m 29s):And then you do even just for, you know, this two hour play. And even if it's just a minor shift, it feels like you've gone a far way out of the way to give back maybe to the same place. But you, you know, Bruce Norris wrote this play and he talks about how he wrote the play because he wanted to, he wanted folks to challenge. He wanted to challenge the audience's ability to, to their capacity for forgiveness.4 (32m 59s):Yeah. I mean, I'm obsessed with the idea of who gets to be forgiven and why, and what happens when yeah. People make choices. And I think w you know, working with felons when they got out of prison, I learned that most of us well. Yeah. I, I truly believe that most of us are like one bad choice away. A lot of times from being an exact same position as my clients were in, or as the people in that player. And, and it's not as simple as we think, but, you know, I, yeah, I agree. So, okay. So you want to make that kind of art. Do you feel like you made that kind of art at the theater school at all?4 (33m 40s):Did you,5 (33m 43s):I think at the theater school, I was less concerned with making art and more concerned with managing the cut system. If we had a cut system and then, you know, just being a good actor, it was, it was primarily, primarily about self. It was less about storytelling. I didn't, I don't think I got to that place in my life career until a few, few years out of school. You do some work and you figure out it's not simply about me and how good I am in it, or you know, how much money I'm making.4 (34m 18s):Yeah. Did you, when you did the showcase, did you the show? Okay, so I was just the, the, the kids, the kiddos were just here during the showcase. There was no real showcase in person which sucked this year, but they came to LA and it brought back memories. And so I was going to ask you about your experience. Did you go to New York LA and do Chicago? Okay. What was it like for you? What material do you remember the material you did? And what was the, what was your experience of that in terms of interest reps?5 (34m 51s):I don't remember what scene I did for showcase, but I did, I did do a scene. I remember I was playing, I had a basketball at his house playing basketball at the same time. I should figure out what play that was, but I did that. And then I got, I guess, a healthy amount of interest in New York and LA, and I knew from showcase even before that, that I knew I was, I was leaving Chicago.4 (35m 18s):Okay. This is very exciting to me to, to, so you, you, w w how did you know that, like, when you went there and you did your scene and afterwards, they said, so, and so wants to meet with you or these people, like you, you just, like, I gotta get outta here, or what was the feeling like? My next move is,5 (35m 37s):Well, I was cold in Chicago, so I had just done a Chicago winter, and I wasn't, I was determined not to do another. And I think for a long time, I thought I'd go to New York. What happened was I ended up getting a, managed, signing with a manager here in LA, right out of showcase, and then decided, okay, I'm going to go to LA. And then I booked this other job. It took me to Canada for two years, but I kept my LA manager. And then I moved to LA right after this thing called the Stratford festival.4 (36m 10s):Of course. Yeah. Two years. Yeah. Holy shit. So you went right out of school to Canada. Yeah. Do you, how was that?5 (36m 20s):It was great. It was, it was this sort of things that I didn't anticipate I'd ever do. I didn't even know where Stratford was when I got the job. And so I went into, it was called the Birmingham conservatory for classical theater training at Stratford festival. And so I go up and I studied for 20 weeks in the winter and in Stratford, Ontario. And then you go into the season as an actor. So I was up there for two years4 (36m 52s):And then, okay. So you're doing that for two years where you kept your manager and then what happens after Canada5 (36m 58s):Moved to LA4 (36m 59s):You just straight up moved here? Yup. Okay. And then, and then you back and forth, or you were here for a while. What years are your year here? Youngster. What year was this? Not that long ago.5 (37m 8s):I moved to LA and then I, I was, I think I did submit two thousands. Then I went to New York to do a play. I want to say something like 2008. And then from then on, I started going back and forth between New York and LA. I did that for probably brought till about 2000, 2014, something like that.4 (37m 44s):And then what happened? I'm fascinated. You, you have a story that I don't for theater school grads, that this doesn't usually happen. So usually what we notice is you do the showcase, you pick a place and you stay there for a long time, but you've been moving around. So then, okay. So after you did back and forth, how did you land? I mean,5 (38m 4s):Well, I was living in LA. I had done a play in New York, and so I thought to myself, I wanted to be able to go back and forth. So I still kept my, my home in LA, I guess I call it. And I would just, I got a roommate in New York and I would just go back and forth between the two. And so I did a play in New York in 2008, then I did another in 2011. And, and then I think I will probably let that place go. New York around 2014.4 (38m 38s):Yeah. And then since then, I've just5 (38m 40s):Been, then I was in LA and then I D I went back to Chicago in 2013 to do a play at Steppenwolf. And then I got a place in Chicago. So I replaced my place in New York with a place in Chicago. And I would just go back and forth between Chicago and LA.4 (38m 57s):Okay. So now, now you run the joint with, with a bunch of, with Audrey and probably some help, some other step waltz. W why do you take, why did you take that on, like, what, what, what, what happened there that you were like, this is the next thing I'm like, fascinated by the choices people make. And this was the same with my clients and the same with my characters. I write, like, how does that happen when you're going back and forth from New York or to mostly now, Chicago and LA. Yeah. And then you're like, you're, you were obviously an ensemble member I'm assuming first. Okay. And then what, how does that happen? That, you5 (39m 36s):Know, wow. When I was made ensemble, remember in 2017, I had just done another play a step one side. I think I did like4 (39m 44s):About, you got older.5 (39m 46s):Yeah. You got older. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. And so I did another play called the Christians and had, had a great time. And after that, I, I had started to the other part of my life. I'm a producer in television and film. So I started producing and then it just sort of became natural to me, for me to want to sort of guide projects to fruition. And so when the Steppenwolf job came up and R D Shapiro who brought me into the company announced that she was leaving and the company did a, that the company has a self-imposed mandate that an ensemble member always be the artistic director.4 (40m 31s):I did not know that.5 (40m 32s):Okay. It's only ever been on ensemble. So we did a search within the company and myself and Audrey Francis, who, you know, we got the most votes. And so,4 (40m 44s):Yeah.5 (40m 44s):Yeah. The ensemble bows down, sambal chooses the ensemble, the artistic director.4 (40m 50s):I did not know this. Okay. This is very fascinating to me. Okay. So you got the most votes and why two people, like, did they, has it ever been to at the same time,5 (41m 0s):If it has there's rumors that it was two before this there's only ever been two in a formalized setting, formalized situation. And so we decided to do it together because it's such a huge job. And both of us are actors. Yeah. Audrey is also a director. I am a producer. And so we thought, you know, to do this job, you know, most times it's directors, because, you know, it affords them the ability to still have their career outside of it for an actor. If you're running the theater. And like right now, I'm in Los Angeles doing king James.5 (41m 41s):Yeah. Then it, it, who, who do, who does staff go to? Who, who, who sort of running, steering the ship while I'm away or the counterpart is away. So we said, okay, if there's two of us that we can sort of outline in any given year that as long as one of us is on campus, one of us is steering the ship to the garden at any given time. Then there's a version of the second work. So we, we, we decided together that we would, we would pitch ourselves together instead of one of us doing it. And so the ensemble loved it and the board thought it was a great idea. And so they contracted both of us. And so here we are.4 (42m 22s):And does it go on forever and ever until you get sick of it,5 (42m 26s):We have to let them know we do, we do contracts. And so before the contract ends, you let them know, Hey, I want to stay on it, or I want to,4 (42m 36s):How's it going?5 (42m 37s):It's going4 (42m 38s):Right. Do you like it?5 (42m 40s):I love it. Is it4 (42m 40s):Hard?5 (42m 41s):Oh yeah. Yeah. It's hard.4 (42m 43s):It's fulfilling.5 (42m 45s):Very,4 (42m 45s):Yeah. Okay. Do you have any time to do anything? Do you, do you, you must because you're here. So you have, but you do a lot of things. So I guess my next question is how do you do a lot of things and managed to not lose your mind?5 (43m 0s):What I would say that I'm a big planner. I have a lot of help. Obviously. I have assistance. I partners, turtle album McCraney, who my, I wasn't mentioning before4 (43m 15s):That is to school together,5 (43m 17s):Went to school together. Yeah. And he is my best friend in the world. Also my producing partner,4 (43m 23s):Brilliant boat. But yeah, you're both very brilliant human.5 (43m 26s):Thank you. I appreciate that. And so we have a production company based here in LA and we're in an overall deal at universal. And so we, we, that's a partnership and we have a team, a very strong team that we produce television and film. And then at Steppenwolf, I have Audrey, who's the best partner one can ask for. And we, we, we together manage through all the, the things that are going on and step off. So, and then, you know, when I'm going to do a play, yeah. I'm constantly in communication with her constantly communication with Tarell about all the things that we're doing.4 (44m 7s):Oh my God. So I guess the communication is, is really the key. Okay. My question is, what would you say to like the students and my young students who are like, what kind of world am I walking into? What, in the entertainment industry, how can I take ownership over my career? What the fuck do I do? I always like to be whatever you're doing, something's going right in your career. So, which is great. And I'm not saying it doesn't take a tremendous amount of work, but I'm also saying, is there any tips or like how to manage this life? You've graduated. You've just, like you said, like, you want to, you want to make it, you want to, you, you want to earn money, want to pay the rent and still make good art.4 (44m 56s):How the fuck do you do that?5 (45m 0s):Well, you're saying w what advice I would give. Right. I would say the, one of the first questions you asked was, you know, LA or Chicago, or, you know, I would say pick the place that you'd like to live. Like a lot of times people go, oh, I got to go to LA. If I want a career, you don't have to do that anymore. You can be in London, you'll be in Toronto. You can be in new Orleans, you can Chicago. So I would Fe I would say, go to the place that makes you happiest, makes you feel like the best version of yourself or some approximation of it. And then sort of sit down. I always look at my life in terms of five-year goals and plans.5 (45m 40s):What do I want, what I want my life to look like in the next five years. And so sit down and make a plan. If that's to be a series regular on a TV show, then put all of your efforts towards that. If it's to be, you know, a Broadway actor, then, you know, you know, there's a path to that, presumably. So I would say, make a plan and take some risks. You know, they might not always be comfortable, but you go out and you say, at least for, at least for me, I've, I've learned the most about myself. And I really taken a risk. And lastly, I would say, particularly for actors become, you know, did this happen by happenstance with me, but my best friend in the world is a writer and a very accomplished yeah,4 (46m 28s):Yeah. Like not, yeah, no slouch like a brilliant one of the most brilliant. Yeah.5 (46m 33s):And, and I've because of that, I've, you know, our partnership I've been in almost every one of his plays I've, we've created together. He's making things for me. I would say, if you can find a creative partner partnership or ships, you know, Rajiv, Joseph is another friend of mine who we're very close friends, we've done two plays together. Now we're doing TV shows together. Like find those folks that you're like, I just like being in partnership with you. And let's, you know, it might take five, 10 years to create something together, but let's start the conversation.4 (47m 9s):Did you know that immediately at school, that these folks were going to, cause there's also, isn't there a woman that you also are close with, that you met?5 (47m 17s):Yeah. Alana arenas is my other best tool in a lot of my two best friends in the world. Okay.4 (47m 21s):Okay. So did you know at the, at school, at the theater school where you immediately, like, I ha I love these books and I want to make art with them, or how did5 (47m 30s):That? No, I don't. I don't think cause Tara wasn't a writer at the time. He was, he was an actor and a theater school a year ahead of me and Atlanta was two years ahead of me. And, but they just, they were home. I met them and I just said, oh, you're my person. And so those two have been in my life for the last, you know, 20 however many years. And those are proud. I've worked with them several times over and over. They're both supremely talented Alana was on Tyrrell's TV show called David makes man. And she was amazing in it. So I think that, yeah, I just found them as people interesting and you know, beautiful people inside and out and they just so happen to be, you know, supremely talented, but I didn't go into it looking for them like, who do I like?5 (48m 21s):You know? So that's, that's essentially what it was. You.4 (48m 25s):Okay. What kind of, you said you want to make art, like, do you, is it more that the medium doesn't matter as much as the story in terms of TV versus being in a F or working on films or working on television? Or what, what is, do you have a favorite or are you just open to telling good stories, whatever form it takes? Are you that kind of a,5 (48m 46s):Yeah, I think it's the, the ladder. They're very different forms to work in as an actor. I'm doing a play right now, obviously. Yeah. I get a fulfillment that I don't get in producing television and film, but also in television and film, I get a, a fulfillment there as well, where I'm the, I have, my voice means is, is hugely meaningful in the room. If it's not me making the final decision on something, you know, very close to the, the, the folks in the room who are making those final decisions. So as an actor, you're, you're coming to be a cog in a wheel, you know, or you're there to service the story in film and TV as a producer, at least you're, you're get the engine you're, you're providing the platform or the, the landscape for artists to come in and tell their stories.5 (49m 44s):So it's a very different fulfillment that, you know, being in one in the other. And so I love them, both. Yeah. Theater is, is where I come from from first fell in love with storytelling and the art and the craft.4 (49m 58s):W I can't remember. I know that your family is not, it's more of a political family, right? Yeah.5 (50m 2s):And in terms of politics in Chicago.4 (50m 3s):Yeah. Yeah. So, but not so not theater so much. Okay. And then how did you end up doing theater since you said theaters5 (50m 12s):You're I was on the basketball team in high school. That's right.4 (50m 14s):Then you realized,5 (50m 16s):Yeah. Yeah. I realized I just audition audition for a play randomly. And I thought, oh wow, this is, I can do this. And so I gave up sports or basketball and she said, my, I thought, I thought at the time I had a burgeoning basketball career.4 (50m 31s):But if you did, though, you must have had a co I mean, what you were, you said you loved it and you were good at it. You just didn't think you were good enough.5 (50m 41s):Yeah. I don't even think at the time I knew if I was good enough. And I probably had all the bravado that any young4 (50m 47s):Men5 (50m 48s):That I could go to the NBA, but I just fell in love with theater. I fell in love with the art form and, you know, later studying it at DePaul at other places, setting Shakespeare. I just thought I can do this for the rest of my life. So.4 (51m 6s):Oh. And you knew it, right? Yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. So you knew it. Okay. And then if you had to like, like the next thing you want to do, like you have, are you doing exactly? I talked to people sometimes and they're doing exactly what they want to do, or they're excited. Or sometimes they're like, no, I want to pivot. And in a year, like we talk about, you talked about five years, so what's your five-year, what do you want to do in five years in your five-year plan? Do you have any grant?5 (51m 33s):Yeah. Well, I think that a big part of my artistic life right now is stepping up is I'm leading the company. There are some things that industry-wide, that I would love to see changed.4 (51m 46s):I want to know what they are,5 (51m 48s):Where there's a, there's a long list4 (51m 50s):With one5 (51m 54s):More pay equity for, for people in the arts theater theater specifically. There's, there's just not, you know, you can't, most of us cannot live, let alone thrive on a theater salary. So we'd love to change that diversity equity inclusion is very important to me getting more people involved, who don't, who historically have not been a part of the theater community. I think doing king James has been sort of eye opening for me because so many people have come because they love basketball. They love LeBron, or they love sports.5 (52m 35s):And now they're, you know, they're coming to a play and they go with some of the first play I've ever been to. And I loved it. So I think there's a lot, a lot of work there to do.4 (52m 46s):And do you feel like the word beat with the pandemic and everything? Have you, have you been able to start diet? Like, are you diving in now or are you, were you in the, when did you start take over you and Andre?5 (52m 60s):Our first day was as artistic director was September 1st, 2021.4 (53m 7s):Yeah. Okay. And now what's happening? The seagull happened? No.5 (53m 13s):Yeah, we just, we just closed the seagull. It was, it was our first theater in the,4 (53m 19s):The new spaces. Is it gorgeous?5 (53m 22s):Or it's, it's, it's all I walk into it and I'm just blown away. And I actually get very excited about one day being able to perform in that theater. But it's this beautiful in the round space that is state of the art, these wonderfully resonant acoustics. It is. Yeah. It's, it's a playground. I love that. I love that space, but yeah, we just opened our first play. We opened, there was the seagull, an adaptation of checkoffs, the seagull by Yassin playing golf and he wrote and directed it and it, it was fantastic.5 (54m 3s):And yeah. So now that now that theater is open,4 (54m 7s):Are you, do you have any things exciting that are probably a million things that are happening, but like television or film wise or for you, or, oh yeah. Or your company or anything that, you know, what's happening.5 (54m 21s):We have step move, just announced this new season. So the false will start, well, we'll have that season, beginning, this fall that we're excited about. So the first season that Audra and I were able to curate ourselves, so that's exciting.4 (54m 39s):What does that mean? Like you're in charge. Like you have to plan the whole shit or like, so like, if you have all the plays out there, you have a literary person I'm sure. And they say, okay, this is all on the table. Yeah. And then you read them all and then does lively debate ensued what happened? Okay.5 (54m 57s):We have an artistic team that we go back and forth over place and we decide, you know, obviously it's4 (55m 4s):No.5 (55m 5s):Yeah. We announced our season April, I think. Okay.4 (55m 8s):What are you super excited? I'm married. You're probably out. So a little bit more. Okay. Do we know if you are going to be in them? Can5 (55m 15s):You be, or you4 (55m 17s):Can't. Okay.5 (55m 18s):I, I don't know just yet. I just don't know, like4 (55m 24s):Deciding.5 (55m 25s):Yeah, sure. Yeah. It's possible. Yeah.4 (55m 27s):That's going to be exciting and you're playing closes. And then when you leave here to go back to Chicago,5 (55m 32s):I leave here I go on vacation and then I'll go back to Chicago. And then I do a play in the fall called well downstate. Oh yeah. We do that in New York in the fall. And then we have Trella and I have 10 TV series that are in development. Yeah. Yeah.4 (55m 55s):Totally crap. Congratulations.5 (55m 58s):Very much. So4 (55m 60s):Tenancy develop, I guess that's how it works. Wow. Wow. Good for you.5 (56m 5s):So what looks to go into production on one later this year? And yeah, we're pitching shows always. And so that's, most of my days are, you know, pitching shows, working on development with our executives at universal and managing the theater. So picking plays really4 (56m 26s):Plays very full5 (56m 28s):Life and doing a play.4 (56m 29s):Do you love your life?5 (56m 31s):Yeah, I love it. Wow.4 (56m 32s):Okay. Do you re we, we were just had I'm in a book club and we were talking about regret. Do you believe in, what's your idea when someone says to you, what do you think about regrets? Do you have them, do you think it's bullshit? Do you think that regret is good? Because it makes us, we had a lively discussion about regret the other night here at the office.5 (56m 51s):What was the consensus?4 (56m 52s):Well, some people are like, no, there's no such thing as regret because in the moment you do the best you can with the choices you have. But I actually think regret has been helpful for me because things like I regret that I didn't do certain things. It's not about judgment for me. It's more about like, I'm S maybe it's sadness. I don't know. I regret that, like my mom and I never talked about X before she passed. Right. Or, but I don't say, and I'm an asshole because of that. I just say, I regret that. But other people are saying, no, no regrets, like live your life with no regrets. I don't know. Where do you fall on this? I don't know.5 (57m 28s):I think that, I think for all honest with ourselves, there, there are things that may be in our past that we wrapped that we maybe wish we had not done done in that same way. That's the sort of notion of a regret. You know, you wish you made a different choice to varying degrees, but I think that at least when most people say, because I understand the notion of, Hey, there's no regrets. You, you had to make the choice you were going to make to be the person that you go to. You're going to be, I get it. So I think that, I think more to the point for me is there are regrets. You just have to live with them. You just have to learn to live with them. And, you know, all of us decide or make a, make a choice of how we're going to sort of, how do you say it is a word I'm looking for, but how you sort of assimilate all your choices into your person,4 (58m 25s):Integrate that and like, become like accept them or like the least own them, maybe.5 (58m 32s):Okay. I did that. It is what it is. it is what it is. I think you're saying it is what it is. It didn't turn out in my favor, but you know, w what else was I going to do? Ah,4 (58m 43s):That brings me to my final. I'll let you, but what was your, her a bit of as a human, but like, what do you do when things don't go your way? How do you, cause I think a lot of people that listen to the podcast are coping with like regret and also rejection. And when things don't go your way, whatever that means, how do you as a person, as an artist, however you want to answer it, how do you get back up how do you, how do you keep going?5 (59m 13s):Yeah, I think that I learned this, this trick oh, years ago, where I go and I thought to myself, I'm never going to, whenever I auditioned for, yeah, I am. I am, I will not covet it. I will do everything in my power not to covet it so that if, and when I don't get it, which he usually don't, you didn't lose anything. It was never yours4 (59m 35s):Coveting as it is an interesting word there. Right. Cause it's like, it means sort of to try to clench or hold onto or grasp and like control. All right. So you say that to yourself?5 (59m 47s):Yeah. It gives me a sense of relaxation, relaxation going into the room. Look, if I get it and it could be, life-changing awesome. But if it doesn't, my life is where it is today. Awesome.4 (59m 58s):Part of the thing that I noticed with you is like that you've built such an awesome life anyway, that like stuff will add to it if something mindblowing comes along, but it's not as though it's the only thing going on. Right? So like you have so much going on that you seem to love that if you don't get book a job, it's not going to make the whole house fall down. Right? Like it's not the whole entirety of who you are as an artist.5 (1h 0m 21s):Yeah. This is, this goes back to an experience I had when I first moved to LA, I was in, I was a, an intern at a casting office and that's something I would actually suggest actors recommended they do because you get to see what the other side looks like. And I remember being in there and this, this guy comes in for this audition. He's just Emmy nominated actor at the time. And he has like four page monologue. And I'm reading with him, he's reading through it. He looks down at the pages maybe twice. And he got it the night before. So he did this enormous amount of work. He's reading through it. I'm looking down at the page, just trying to remember it. And I've just have one line of course responses.5 (1h 1m 1s):And he finished it. He is brilliant. He4 (1h 1m 3s):Finishes it.5 (1h 1m 4s):He did a fantastic job. He's brilliant. He gets up right away and says, well, look, thank you all. Thank you all so much and have a nice weekend or whatever. Yeah. He didn't linger. He didn't say, do you need more? He didn't say, Hey, how4 (1h 1m 20s):You know,5 (1h 1m 22s):He just left out and he did not. It seemed like something else was pulling him out of the room.4 (1h 1m 29s):Other5 (1h 1m 31s):Life, something, something else, this wasn't everything he goes out. And the director, I mean the, the casting director, there's, there's just this hush for about 10 seconds, which is a long time after somebody leaves a room after auditioning and it's all executives in the room and me and the cats. And he says the casting director, she says, the casting director says, that's why he's immune nominated. And then there's another beat or two. And then the, the lead executive says, yeah, but he's not right.5 (1h 2m 11s):And so that was it. And so what it taught me was even if you go in with, in your, you're doing all the right things, you're playing all the right beats are the guy. There's a version of that show in which he was fantastic and went on to write awards and4 (1h 2m 27s):Things,5 (1h 2m 28s):But he wasn't right in their estimation. So it took the pressure off of me of trying to have to be4 (1h 2m 33s):Right for everything. Like we can't be right for everything5 (1h 2m 37s):Not going to be right.4 (1h 2m 37s):And what's not, ours is not ours. Like you're saying like, you can covet something all you want, but if it's not meant for me, it's not coming to me,5 (1h 2m 45s):But it mattered to him no less because he still went in and knock their socks off as an actor. And that's the narrative that comes out of that room is that he wasn't right. But wow, he's brilliant. I can't wait to, he is right for the right for,4 (1h 2m 58s):And also it had quite an effect on you. And now you're telling me this story and then it'll be told on the podcast. And so it's, it matters, right? Like it's a ripple effect. So he might not have been right for that part. You know, there's a friend of mine is a casting director and she always says, you probably know her Mickey Paskal on Chicago. And she says, not yet for the person. So it is not, no, it is not there, Terry, you know, she said, not yet, it's not yours yet. Not yet for you. Not yet. And I love that because it, it sort of implies that something's coming. We just don't know when. And we just don't know what it looks like specifically, but just not yet. And I was like, oh, it's such a more, oh, it's like an open way to look at these jobs rather than just like you did with the, it's just not right for it.4 (1h 3m 45s):He, he was brilliant. And then, like you said, there's a version of that show with him in it, but this is not this one. Yeah. And so it's, I, I think that that's great. And I, I think young actors really need to hear that, which is not yet. And you're not going to be right for everything you can't be.5 (1h 4m 1s):Yeah. It took a lot of pressure off me to have to be perfect. And I just started relaxing and just, you know what, I'm gonna do the best job, my version of this, this character. And then if I get it awesome, if I don't, I haven't lost anything. Yeah.4 (1h 4m 15s):And I think, I think what I'm getting just from this, from this interview too, is that idea of building a life with that is full of things that I, or anyone loves to do. Not just one thing. So that if, if one thing doesn't go in one area, doesn't go like perfectly. I could still be like, thank you, have a great day. I'm going to go out and live my life. That is like really dope over here. I have family, I have whatever the things are. Great. So you're not dependent on this one. Yes. To like be okay, but I think it's, it's yeah.5 (1h 4m 51s):It's hard to find you to find your happiness. It's4 (1h 4m 53s):Just like a part of your day, right? Like it's one part of your day. And then you go on and do your things and have your conference calls with Steppenwolf and whatever, eat a sandwich or whatever. So5 (1h 5m 3s):Remember this one or from one friend of mine years ago said, I look at auditions as my one opportunity to act that day or to perform or to tell a story. And I had my two minutes, I go in and I do it and then I'll let it go. And I throw away the sides. And I, I, I go home.4 (1h 5m 19s):I mean, I think that's great. Like I think, I think taking the pressure off and also, right, it's sort of what I call, like right-sizing things, you know, like I've, I I've said before I got into rooms, like I have seen the face of hell and this is not it we're going to go in and we're gonna do it. All right. So I will let you go because you're very, you're very busy and you have a lot of things going on, but I, I just want to thank you. And I also want to say, like, I have a lot of hope. I mean, I, I love Audrey and now I adore you. And I think that the American theater has a real opportunity. The, one of the things that I'm noticing, especially in the whole two weeks that we've had in terms of the Supreme court, that w we have a lot of opportunity, like, things are really, really hard and terrible, but I also think that anytime there's something really terrible, there's also an opportunity for the counterpoint to that.4 (1h 6m 12s):So I'm hoping with the American theater and art in general, perhaps that maybe we can be part of that counterpoint of all the terrible shit that's going on. And I'm hoping that stepping Wolf, I can't wait to see, I'm going to see what the season is, is going to, you don't have to tell me what the season is. I'll look it up. I think you and Audrey should be in all the plays and that's probably not going to happen, but, but no, I am hopeful. I am still hopeful. Are you still hopeful about things?5 (1h 6m 38s):Absolutely. Yeah. I wouldn't do it if I wasn't, it's it's not a job you want to take on with a sense of hopelessness. You have to really believe in the, in the sort of prospects of the artists involved in the sort of theater landscape itself.4 (1h 6m 54s):And since you, do you think the same holds true for like film and television? Are you still hopeful?5 (1h 6m 58s):Yeah. Filming film and television have this thing, that theater doesn't and that's called money. So whether you're, you know, I know a lot of folks who are on TV shows who are, you know, maybe not creatively inspired, you know, we've heard that story a lot, but they're getting there. You know, if, if it's, if it's an exchange of dividends for their time, then they're being paid in comparison to their counterparts in other industries they're being paid handsomely. And so that brings you a sense of happiness versus a fulfilling.4 (1h 7m 29s):Yeah. I didn't help your family and you can at least two. So that's true. Like, I think that that's, yeah. We seem to have found a mix of the things that you love and are important to you. And I think that that's something that, that is, that is brilliant, that we don't see a lot. So I say, keep, keep on. I mean, of course you're going to keep on, but thank you for talking to5 (1h 7m 48s):Me.3 (1h 7m 58s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina cheat, or the co-hosts this episode was produced, edited, and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.
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Intro: It's a bad idea not to pay your student loans, The Odd Couple, Severance, chicken nugget bowls, Let Me Run This By You: Google is bullying Gina. What's your email archive strategy? We are all mostly old because the window of youth is shockingly short. Some of your dreams are NOT out of reach.Interview: We talk to T.J. Harris about coming to acting later in life, having a background in business, having a close-knit cohort, Title IX investigations, being the victim of racial profiling while at school, the paradox of slightly shy kids being told they were shy so often that they become even more withdrawn, Our Lady of Kibeho, Neighborhood 3: Requisition of Doom, Sean Parris, Chris Anthony.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):3 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.4 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.4 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?1 (34s):Anyway, so I had to like get him out of the house and like men are slow and I just, it's just, it's a really no win situation. So anyway. Hello. Hello Busy. I've been busy. We've all been busy.2 (51s):We have been doing the damn thing. Haven't we?1 (55s):Yeah.2 (56s):Yeah. I have spent the last, what feels like a week. Yeah. I think it's been a week simply reviewing every single dollar 20, 21, like literally and putting it in a spreadsheet, literally like can donuts, can you1 (1m 18s):Keep it because you can write off a lot2 (1m 20s):Of new machine. Yeah. That's yeah. That's, that's the point of it is to find everything that, that can be written off, but it's, you know, and I'm hunched and my back and my eyes strain, and it's just like, oh my God, Calgon, take me away.1 (1m 38s):Yeah. I mean, I think that taxes are one of those things where if you do them right, and legally it's a lot of work, right? It's like,2 (1m 47s):You want to skim and1 (1m 48s):Be shady, which I don't recommend, because guess what? The IRS is only job is to get your money. Like, that's their only job. They don't have any other purpose on the planet. So like, if you think that's not their job, you're wrong. But anyway, so if you do it right, like you are, it's a lot of freaking work and it also is painstaking.2 (2m 12s):And I, and, and it's painstaking. And I think, you know, to, to, to find a silver lining in it, like, I'm so glad I don't have a full-time job because this is the kind of thing that literally, I don't know how people, when it's, when everybody works, how they do it it's1 (2m 35s):Well, you can't. I mean, I think it's, that's why people end up in trouble. Like, that's why people end up trying to skin his scam or not doing them and being like, you know what, I'm going to pass on all this. I'm just going to hope for them. And like, that's what I did with my student loans, because I didn't want to, and that's not even as hard as taxes, but I just like, couldn't cope with the ins and outs of doing the work to defer or like make deals, or like get my payments lower. And thus, I had a sheriff show up at my apartment. Like that is where you're headed. You don't know that story. Oh, all right. So I thought, oh, it'd be really cool to not pay my student loans.1 (3m 15s):I mean, I didn't really have the money, but I also didn't realize that my student loans were private student loans. Oh boy. So when they're private, you're in big trouble, because guess what? It's a bank that wants their money. It's not the government who has a million other things to do. Right. So the bank is like, no, we want our money. And I did that. Know that the bank hires the Sheriff's department to serve papers when you are being sued for your private loans. So one day I am N in Rogers park at my thinking, you know, nothing of it. Like I, I owed 50 grand and I to like four different banks. Right. It's always, and they sell them to other people and it's a big scam.1 (3m 56s):Right. Okay. Fine. But I'm like going about my business thinking, but feeling bad, but like, feeling like, ah, fuck it. Like, who cares? Well, they care. Wait,2 (4m 7s):How long were you not paying them1 (4m 9s):For a couple of years? Maybe I just said, forget it in 15, 20, 15. I said, no more. And then in 27, 20 17, I'm literally, I kept getting calls. They started calling miles and I was just the guy just pay no attention. Miles, like pay no attention. And of course he's like so trusting. He was like, okay, I'll pay no attention. I'll compartmentalize. And okay. So one day there's a, our buzzer goes off and I'm like, hello. Cause no one ever. He's like, this is the Sheriff's department. Are you Jennifer Bosworth? And I was like, and then I realized, I really quickly, your mind goes, oh, what have I done wrong?1 (4m 50s):Right. And it focuses it on the thing. Cause you know what you've done right. Or what I've done wrong. And I'm like, oh, my here is the PA the Piper or the pied Piper or whoever is coming to collect chickens, home to roost all the things. And I was like, and I just said, I have a lawyer go away. And he goes, no, we just, we just want to give you these papers. Like we have to give you these papers. I'm like, no, I have a lawyer go away. Which is the wrong thing to do.2 (5m 19s):What also, what was your logic there? I have a lawyer. Okay.1 (5m 23s):There was no logic. I would say it was the opposite of logic is what's going on. So I see that they go away because, and so they're paid by the bank. So they just hire the Sheriff's department to serve people. I did not know that it's like, they, they you're there for hire basically the Sheriff's department. So they go and they serve people and they could not serve me. But then what it did was it was really actually a great kick in the pants because I was like, oh, I have a court date now. So no. So what I did was I said, okay, let me find it. So then I was like, I need a lawyer. So, and then on my 43rd birthday or 42nd, 42nd birthday.1 (6m 10s):Yeah. 42nd birthday. I went to the lawyer. I found this lawyer fucking brilliant. I can't remember her name right now. She was like legally blonde. She had these long pink nails and her only job was to get people off student loans and, and either file bankruptcy or figure out a way to talk. The loan people doubt. She was a bad-ass and I went there and I was like crying. And I was like, look. And she was like, oh, $50,000. That's nothing. And I was like, oh, she's like, I got people that I was, you know, 600,000 in medical school loans,2 (6m 43s):Medical school, that's1 (6m 45s):All. But also she goes, yeah, the private loans they get ya, you know? So, so she, she, okay. So she said, I said, well, what do I do? I can't remember her name. She was so awesome. And I, and she's like, well, do you have the money? I'm like, well, look, I have this inheritance. She's like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no. Then we can't declare bankruptcy because they'll go after your inheritance. I was like, oh, hell to the, no. So she's like, all right, well, we'll try to get him down. So she reduced $50,000 to $25,000 for a fee of $3,000 and went to court and was like, you know, so she talked them down. She's like, you're getting nothing. If you don't take this 25,000, she's like, can you get me 25,000?1 (7m 27s):I'm like, sure. So I, then it happened to be, we were selling the house around that time. Anyway, I got the money and then my life has, but my credit was literally if a here's what people don't understand. It's like, it may be stupid, but the credit matters. But if you want to live somewhere,2 (7m 46s):Right? Like if you want to be on the grid,1 (7m 49s):If you want to like have a house that is, if you ever want to apply for apartment, if you ever want to it matters. I know it shouldn't. I always tell my students like, yeah, all this shit shouldn't matter, but it does everyone. It does. I hate the fact that it does, but let's be honest about the truth here. Let's just get real. So my, my credit now, what my credit was so low, I can't remember what it was. And I was like, oh, that's not so bad. And my friend was like, that's the worst credit you're going to have? And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I didn't understand the scale. Right? Like I was like, oh, five 40 isn't bad. Or five, some days she was like, that's like the worst. So now my credit is seven 80.1 (8m 30s):Oh no, no. I got it. All of it is seven 50 because I paid it off. And like, I don't, we don't have any debt. Thank God credit card wise. Oh, because vials is, if, if it were up to me, I probably have debt up to my eyeballs, unfortunately. But my partner is like, oh no, no, no. He's really good with that. Thank God. Oh boy. Cause I have some problems because my parents never taught me shit. You know? So no, all this to say, how did this come up?2 (8m 58s):Because we were talking about,1 (8m 60s):Sorry.2 (9m 1s):Okay. But so many things about your story. First of all, it was $50,000. Just the amount you owed from the time that you stopped paying, or are you saying it has a total of $50,000?1 (9m 15s):No, I had more than that. So I had had 80 and I had paid 30 of it off because I went to school like in oh eight. I graduated. So it's not like a long time. So I had 50, 80,000 total. I had paid 30 somehow some way and all those years around there. And then I had 50 left. Yeah. And I was used to pay the 50, but then I2 (9m 38s):Just, just asking, but like, could anybody go to a lawyer and say, reduce my,1 (9m 45s):Yeah. That's their whole, because here's what the, yes, this is what they don't tell you is that2 (9m 50s):I feel like such an asshole. Right?1 (9m 54s):Doris is literally overdosing on melatonin. Hold on. Okay.2 (9m 58s):Oh my God. I can't believe I could have. I just pay. All of my students will never1 (10m 6s):Happen again. Come2 (10m 7s):Here, Come here. I just can't believe I've paid every penny of my student loans. What is wrong with me? I'm just the worst partner ever. Sorry. No, you're not. You're not the worst person. She meets me. And I eat1 (10m 31s):That2 (10m 32s):Thing away from her and I gave her all kinds of,1 (10m 35s):Okay. So yeah. You don't feel like an asshole because here's the thing. They never tell you this, that you can everything's negotiable in this country. Okay. Every single thing is negotiable. Everything's a business deal. Everything can be reduced. Why? Because there's no set rate for anything that's capitalism. So you, you, you can charge whatever you want. And then it's negotiable. So what she told me was these companies, these banks, they're banks, they're not companies. I mean, they're banks. These banks know that they will get nothing. If someone declares bankruptcy. Okay. So they don't know that I had this inheritance, this, you know, but they, they know that most people say F you I'm part of capitalism is bankruptcy.1 (11m 22s):I'm declaring bankruptcy. You get $0. So they want anything. They'll take pennies on the goddamn dollar. So she's like, oh no. And it's a fine line. And that's why you need a lawyer to go to court and say, my client has nothing. So if you want anything, she'd lucked into 25 grand. She can, she can scrape by twenty-five grand. You want that? Or you want Jack shit. And then they'll say, give me the 25 grand.2 (11m 45s):Right? Right. Well, I, I, it doesn't matter. Now I had done this, you know, 10 years ago. I mean, because the thing is, of course, like you take, you borrow $50,000 and you pay 300, basically.1 (11m 58s):It's ridiculous. Especially with private loans. Ridiculous.2 (12m 3s):That's what, and that's what I had. I had a lot of problems, but the other thing that's so striking about your stories, the moment when you start, when you said you had this moment in 2015, where you said, fuck it. I just, that gave me such a thrill. Like if you would, just because the reason I couldn't do that is I would think about it every second of the day.1 (12m 25s):I would have. Yeah. Because my mom was my co-signer, but that lady was dead. So I was like, what are they going to do? Cause she was really, I was more afraid of my mother than the federal and then the, then the bank and the government. So the private loans and the government. So I, if she was alive, you bet your ass. I would have been paying those motherfuckers off2 (12m 45s):Of my loans for social work school had to have a co-signer of my father-in-law. And for some reason that I never did get to the bottom of Wells Fargo. If I was one day late for a payment, they wouldn't even call me or contact me in any way. They just immediately, it was all on him. Yes. And he would of course call me the second that they called him. And it was so embarrassing every time I'd be like, I mean, it happened like, I want to say it happened five or six1 (13m 19s):Times. That is so easy to do.2 (13m 22s):It's silly. But1 (13m 24s):It's2 (13m 24s):Also like, this is the mafia. Like you're you're one day late in your payment and you don't say, Hey, could you pay me? You just go, do you just threaten somebody to break?1 (13m 33s):Yeah, it's a psychological tactic. It's like some real Scientology bullshit.2 (13m 38s):It was horrible. Horrible, horrible. So if you have a few, can't pay your student loans. If you're listening to this and you cannot pay your student loans, call a lawyer,1 (13m 52s):Let me run this by you.2 (13m 58s):And then I'm also doing another, another way in which I'm an obsessive rural follower is that Google sent me a message saying, I have exceeded my storage limit by 380%. And if that, if I listen, anybody could, anybody can bully me. I am so easily bullied. It said, if you don't, if you don't pay more for storage or get rid of some of what you have, you will no longer be able to send or receive emails. So I spent five hours yesterday going through1 (14m 34s):A bad idea in some it's2 (14m 36s):Not about idea. Well, I've got it down. Sorry. I was, I was out, I was using 385%. I'm down to 340% after deleting probably 10,000 emails1 (14m 49s):With like, is it true? What they're saying?2 (14m 52s):I don't know. All I know is that when I log onto my email and I see a big red line across the top,1 (14m 60s):I can't,2 (15m 1s):I can't take it. I can't take the red line, but upside, it has been a walk down memory lane, you know, because things, I mean, people I'm having email exchanges with, it seems sort of intimate. And I'm like, I have no idea who that person is. Or like reading email. I looked for the oldest email I have from you, which on this, on this, my Gmail is from 2008. And just, you know, whatever, like you were talking about your job. And I was talking about my job and I found the, the engagement announcement. Yeah.1 (15m 40s):That's2 (15m 40s):Kind of fun too. And, and also I realized I had thousands of emails that I just simply don't need. Like I keep every email. Do you keep all of your emails?1 (15m 51s):No. So I I'm so weird. I never have more than zero unread in my inbox.2 (15m 59s):Well, wait, did I just mean you archives of metal?1 (16m 3s):No, I just delete them. Not all the good one. No, no, no, no. I, I don't, I I'm terrible that I don't know how to do shit, so I don't put them in folders or anything like that or archive.2 (16m 18s):And then you have1 (16m 19s):Zero2 (16m 20s):Emails.1 (16m 21s):Yeah. It's because I have no life maybe. And I just,2 (16m 25s):The chairman for you have a full life and now you don't have any of your emails back from you. Don't1 (16m 30s):You know, I have that.2 (16m 32s):Well, how do you have them?1 (16m 34s):I erased the ones as they come in that are know that I don't know longer that have attachments and no longer need.2 (16m 41s):Okay.1 (16m 42s):So I manage my box. So here's the thing I will run out of storage. It's just that I don't think I get a lot of emails. I don't, I actually don't like, I'm always saying, I want more emails. I'm like the only person that wants them. I'm so like, I love paperwork and I love emails. And so I don't know. I'm always like no one ever emails me. It's so weird. But anyway, the pain is,2 (17m 5s):It's not possible that no one ever emails. You Did. The thing that I did, which is I accidentally deleted all my emails from1 (17m 15s):No, I remember that. That was hilarious. And now,2 (17m 19s):For example,1 (17m 20s):So right now I have zero emails, unread, unread,2 (17m 26s):Unread, you keep everything in your inbox.1 (17m 29s):Yeah. You know me, my desktop. How2 (17m 33s):Many emails are in your inbox? Just1 (17m 38s):30,000. I mean read 30,035.2 (17m 44s):Okay. Well what do you do when you have to find?1 (17m 50s):Well, that's why I can't never find my, Why you don't say why it happened. You have ISO every time you send me, it's bad. But miles miles was like, cause now miles is really into email because of his job for the last six months, his new job. And he's like, but you have no full zero four.2 (18m 8s):No, but zero folders. My shoulder, my shoulders are getting so tough.1 (18m 16s):So, Okay. So anyway, it beans, like I'm not saying I have a good system. Like I don't have a good system. I have no system. But what it is is I'm just proud. I don't have like, I'm really judgy about people that have a lot of unread emails. So like literally if I walk by and coworking and I see someone's inbox has like 12,000 unread, I go, oh God, I go, nothing, nothing, nothing little do they know? I have not one fucking folders. So I can't pay,2 (18m 47s):I need to start in a production of the odd couple because I am.1 (18m 54s):I know I look at your, I don't even know how you make. I look at our joint email. I don't know what these folders mean. I don't know what there's like sub folders to me. I'm like,2 (19m 6s):Now that you're, now that we're discussing this, I'm realizing another fake fakery folders actually don't have any meaning because actually, well, because actually, if you wanted to find an email,1 (19m 22s):This is like from2 (19m 23s):Right. If you want to find an email from target, you can just Google. I mean, you can just search.1 (19m 29s):Yes. But the problem is if you have 4,000, let me run this by you emails. So that is my, so I need you to set it up. I thought I had set it up for, for my, let me run this links. No. So what I did was set up a ma a new G Gmail account2 (19m 47s):And it's not1 (19m 48s):Good. It's not fair. So the bottom line is, I don't think my system is great, but what I think is I like I Le well, I'm weird in that. I like having no unread emails, but at the same time, I don't feel like people are emailing me enough.2 (20m 3s):We did a freaky Friday. You and me and you were thrust into my life. And I was thrusted. I think that I would immediately feel relieved because I feel like you don't necessarily carry around you. I mean, you have a lot of stuff that you have to carry around, but you don't necessarily carry around this need to do everything. Perfect.1 (20m 27s):Oh, no. And I think that comes, I swear to God. A lot of it is with kids, because if you fuck up with yourself, okay, so you're a fuck up. But if you are a parent of three children and you don't, you fuck up, you end up like a lot of people we know, which is, and the kids ended up like, like we, us and people, we know we don't like, so that is, I feel like if I was dropped in. So, so I feel like if I was dropped into your life, I would like it. Cause you have like all this space Around and everything.2 (21m 0s):And my kids would love it because you're fun. And that's, that's like, that's like the dynamic, that's the thing in our house. It's like, mom's no fun. Mom is doing, she's got the rules. She's1 (21m 12s):No, no, I'd be like, all right, let's do, let's eat fried food. This would be my thing. I'd be like, Eat fried food. And I can't eat that anymore. But if I dropped into your life, I could write, I could eat that. And I would say, okay, this is what I used to eat before my hurt. Like what completely I would have. I was thinking about the other day, something called a chicken nugget bowls. Okay. Which was, I would a2 (21m 37s):Bowl of chicken nuggets1 (21m 39s):Mixed with, okay. So I'd go to trader Joe's and get the chicken nuggets and then bake those. And then their, their potatoes, fries, fries, and th and literally dump a bunch of that in a bowl, put some ketchup and mix it all up and just have like a chicken nugget fry. But that's not good for you, by the way.2 (22m 2s):Why was it appealing to put it in a bowl? Instead of1 (22m 5s):I liked the combo of the two together and like the ketchup was the glue that held it all together. And I loved that, but the problem was I gained a lot of weight and then my heart went down. You can't really2 (22m 18s):Mean the thing1 (22m 20s):About adulthood, the shit you really like can not be maintained if you want to live.2 (22m 25s):I mean, it's such a bummer. I recently realized that youth really only lasts for 25 years. So, so, so everybody is mostly old, right? Like everybody's friends, the majority of their life that didn't occur to me for some reason, I think because we're so youth obsessed in this culture, I had this way of fit, not logically, but like I had this way of thinking about it. Like it's this long epoch of life, but really1 (22m 59s):You're old for a very long time. And then you die.2 (23m 2s):And then you're also very young for a period of time. So the, the period of time where you're autonomous and1 (23m 14s):We also missed it.2 (23m 16s):And then we were just walking around, feeling horrible about ourselves.1 (23m 19s):That is such a waste. Right? The other thing I was going to tell you, I have a really good story to tell you about someone we know that I can share, because it's a good story. This is a story about why it's good. That life can be good. Okay. I'm teaching at DePaul, our Alma mater, as you know, if you listen to the show, okay. I teach fourth year BFA actors on zoom, which I wasn't supposed to, but I got special and that's a whole nother Oprah and itself. But so I have students and one of my things is we write pitch letters. I help them. Cause that's my jam. I love doing that. Even if it's a pitch letter for them, for a tour to a rep, to a producer, whatever we write these like bio pitch letters.1 (24m 3s):Okay, fine. So I had this student, I still have the student and he's a wonderful youngster. And he's like talking his dream. This is so crazy. His dream is to be in the Mar somehow in the Marvel universe. Okay. Like he wants his dream is to be in a movie, a Marvel movie. But of course he wants a foot in the door, anything. And he goes, and I said, okay, well, like why we're developing his pitch letter with the class. Everyone takes turns, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, I would really like the career of this guy that I, that I've heard about named Sean Gunn. I'm like, wait,2 (24m 37s):Oh my God.1 (24m 39s):He said, he said, I know he went to the theater school. And like, I know, and I'm thinking to myself, cause you know, I obviously we've interviewed Sean gone listened to his interview and obviously, and we've done it twice, right? No, didn't we do two, two parts. I wasn't that the second one. But yeah. And obviously we know him and obviously he's not like my best friend, but I, and I was like thinking to myself and he's like, I just would really love to pitch him. And I was like, oh my God. So we created a dope letter to Sean Gunn. And I wrote to Sean and said, Hey, my students are doing this thing. He would love to jump on a zoom and they're going to have a zoom. So he's going to meet his hero.2 (25m 20s):That's I1 (25m 21s):Know I couldn't have been happier. I was like, I actually am doing something that makes a difference. So I'm facilitating the zoom between Alex and Sean and Sean was gracious enough to do it. And, and it turns out that he's filming. I think in Atlanta, you know, probably some marble thing and, and he gets off this week. And so it's, he has some time and Alex is like lipping out. Out's 21, right. This kid, he's like a great kid. He did stop motion classes. Like he, like, he knows how to do that as an actor, like the guy is in his letter, I really helped him with his letter. And, and Sean said, this, your student's letter is so sweet. Like I love it. So anyway, the point is, I was like, oh my gosh, this is, this is also to say that another reason the podcast is good.1 (26m 8s):Right. Because you just don't know how you're going to like pass it along. And FYI in two months, my students are going to be our colleagues. Right. Cause they're graduating. So you don't know, like, I don't know what they'll need for me or what I need from them.2 (26m 22s):I always say, you're the person who identified from the very beginning that this podcast was going to be healing to people. And not only are you doing it in this way, but you're also doing it in a way that you're through your work as a teacher correcting the thing that almost everybody who comes on says, I, yeah, I got all this education. But then when I graduated and now I do anything, like you're giving them at least,1 (26m 47s):And I do one-on-ones with them. And because I'm like, look, yes, exactly what happens to us and happened to everyone that we've talked to almost missed, except for like three people. And we've talked to a lot of people happened to is happening again, because I think there's obviously a bigger question of the reckoning of how do we change at a theater stage, acting conservatory to become more friendly towards launching these students in a way where they actually can get work and live and not worry and not worry as much that everything is for not. And what am I doing?1 (27m 26s):And I didn't get picked or chosen and how to write a pitch letter. Like FYI, all the people that I'm helping write pitch letters, they're all getting their meetings with people. It just, anyway, you were saying like, you can access.2 (27m 41s):Yeah. People it's, I'm not suggesting that anybody you want to talk to, you can just hit them up and talk to them. But I am just sort of speaking to this barrier that I have always had myself this mental barrier of like, well, I could never talk to so-and-so it's this thing about like, I could never follow my dream. You know, I recently realized that I actually was afraid to say inside of my own head, what a dream, what my dream was like. Right. Like I, I just made 99% of life completely out of reach for me. And then just try and then just try to figure out what this 1% that I could.1 (28m 24s):Yeah. I mean, that's what trauma does to you. That's what it does. It says you are, you can't even, it's not safe to even dream in your own fantasy. So most what I'm finding is as the more I talk to people in the more I sort of do research for like my own writing on trauma, on like serial killers, really. But like that the trauma is so crystallized at a young age, right. That there, it cuts off all access to hope. That's the effect of trauma. There is no hope. So you operate in this one, teeny little place of, I'm not going to hope, but I'm still going to live. Cause I'm not going to die. So there's, it's like, it's like, yeah, yeah.1 (29m 6s):There's no hope trauma cuts off the access to pipeline, to hope and to not just joy, but hope.2 (29m 13s):Yeah. And, and if it's true, like we were saying that youth is this short window, the good on the good side is there is hope in your older years that you can evolve to be the person that1 (29m 28s):You really can't. It takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of, it's not easy. And it's like really bizarre how you get there. But if you keep putting in the work and get support, it is possible. Even at 40, like that's the other thing that I am so clear on because I launched this consulting business so crazy. Like I thought I was going to get a nine to five and like, so my consulting business has taken off. Right. Because you've just fantastic. And people are like, how are you having so many clients? This is the reason I have no imposter syndrome. When it comes to this particular skill, like I'm scared as shit to be an actor. I'm scared as shit to write, to be a writer.1 (30m 9s):I'm still doing it, but I'm scared in that way, a screenwriter, a television writer, that kind of thing. But if you ask me to sit down with somebody and help them to pitch themselves and to crystallize their vision of what their thing is, whatever their thing is, I don't care what it is. I have zero imposter syndrome. I know you don't have to hire me. I don't get that's, you know, but I know that I am good at that beyond a shadow of a doubt because things have all come together to show me that. So my own work emotionally, I'm working with you on this podcast and in the entertainment business and my past life and entertainment and getting a master's in counseling, psych literally has prepared me to do this thing.1 (30m 57s):And I have no like, fear that if I'm talking to somebody about it, that they're going to think I'm full of shit, because it's actually the truth of what it's undeniable, it's undeniable, you eat it. And it's because I put in the work. And also I just it's one of the side effects of being a traumatized and neglected child is, is, and then doing the work to work through that is noticing that in other people and where their trauma points are. So now, like I'm literally about to start pitching my services to the district attorney's office for, for trials, for people to do closing lawyers that are scared to do closing arguments in a theatrical way.1 (31m 42s):Isn't that crazy? I was watching the John Wayne Gacy trial and I was like, oh, this guy has an amazing closing in his, his closing argument. The da was so brilliant. And it's known as like, he did this beautiful theatrical, but also tasteful thing. Cause sometimes it can be like a carnival, but like, and so I was like, oh, how do I help people do that? Cause that's, you know, and that's always tricky in the legal system, but I've also worked in the legal system. So I know a little bit, so anyway, that's my new, I'm like, yeah, these, some of these lawyers2 (32m 14s):How I1 (32m 15s):Have like stage fright, so litigators even, and they need help. So anyway, we shall see where that goes, but I don't have, I don't have, I'm not afraid that doesn't, I don't have imposter syndrome about that.2 (32m 28s):Yeah. Oh, thank God. We should all have at least one thing that we don't feel like we're an imposter about1 (32m 34s):One thing. I mean, for God's sake7 (32m 43s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to TJ Harris, TJ terrorists introduced us to the idea of the artist preneur and his background in business is what helped him get to that exciting place. So please enjoy our conversation with TJ Harris.2 (33m 2s):Okay. All right. All right. Congratulations. TJ Harris, you survived1 (33m 9s):And you did it with some very like your energy just from the emails and from your life is like so positive, ridiculously positive, which I adore and which I think we need. And also you call yourself and you are an extra preneur,8 (33m 29s):Brilliant1 (33m 30s):Artists, preneur artists are brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant mixing of that. Like I love that. Did you come up with that or?8 (33m 39s):Yeah, well I think so. I probably stole it from somebody else, you know, as all artists do. Yeah. But I have, I have, I started in business before acting, so I came to lading to acting and filmmaking later in life. I'm 34 right now. And this I've been on this journey for about six years. So I, I kind of started out like in finance, I studied, I got a general studies degree in undergrad. I went to ball, state university in Indiana and I was a business administration major at first and I hated it.8 (34m 19s):Absolutely hated it, but I knew it was during the time, like right before the recession hit where it was like, just get a degree to get a job. So I was like, okay, I'll get a business degree. But I ended up switching over to general studies with a concentration in finance and sociology. And during that time, I, I, I've always felt like I've been kind of in this, this middle ground of not really knowing which route I wanted to go, because I didn't want to become a doctor and I didn't want to become a lawyer and I didn't want to go down this. Like somebody already created my path for me. So I just kind of started experimenting with things, graduated with my degree.8 (35m 2s):I got a job with a company that I'm currently still with. I worked part-time for him. Yeah. So I I'm, I'm a consultant. Part-time1 (35m 12s):Oh, you know, what's so funny. That is so rare that people keep their job after they graduate from a, from a fine arts, like from a conservatory that they, as a master's student. That is fantastic. And why did you keep it? Like, could you love that work? What makes you want to keep it?8 (35m 30s):No. So, I mean, they know, I don't really love it. So I actually quit. I quit prior to coming to going to TGS for grad school. So the plan was just to, just to be done with it because I really want to transition out of this industry, but it keeps pulling me back somehow. So I quit. And then I had an exit interview and someone that when I first started with the team, the PR one of my colleagues ended up being the manager of the team when I was leaving. So did an exit interview and I was like, Hey, if you all, like, I'll come back and help out while I'm in school, if you all need my help.8 (36m 10s):So six months later, they brought me back as a contractor. So I was working in like, ha basically all my bills were paid for through working this job. Part-time while being at TTS1 (36m 24s):Here, here's the thing. This is brilliant for a lot of reasons. But one of is which, you know, I teach BFA fours at the theater school and, and now they have a class and I don't know, you may have had something to do with it. I don't know that that's called actors as, as entrepreneurs. There's like a, but, but it reminds me of like, they're trying to, but you already did that on your own. So like you, I never, it is so brilliant that you were able to maintain that job so that you might guess is you were able to live, like you had some Dota live on. Right.8 (37m 1s):I didn't take out any additional student loans or anything like that. I did just the bare minimum. And I was living with a friend from undergrad. So my rent was like, mama shit. He charged me charged charge, like 600 or $700 to be in a really nice place. I didn't have to pay your abilities. And I was living with a friend that I knew, so, and it was, it was, so the reason I quit is because I asked to go remote from my previous manager, but they didn't really work that out for me. So I quit. And I was like, you know what? I don't, I don't need it. So they brought me back and it was like, it was a part-time remote. And I already knew that job. And I was, I was basically locked site.8 (37m 43s):So like in the middle of rehearsal on breaks, I was doing work. It's all project based work. I was doing work in between rehearsals in between classes. I would check in and check my emails and just kind of set my own hours. And so when, like when the pandemic hit, I was already in the work from home mindset.2 (38m 2s):I have to stop you for one second. Cause there's so many things that you're saying I want to respond to. One is it's always a good sign, a good omen when just organically, the conversation turns to exactly what she and I were talking about before we started talking to you, we were talking about student loans and what a albatross they are for so many people so that you did yourself, such a favor by not having to go down that path. But also what I, what we always find in the MFA's is they really already know how to hustle, right? Because they've been in the workforce, hustling is like the thing you have to be as an actor.2 (38m 42s):And I feel like that isn't writ large enough when you're in a training program. Like, listen, you can learn about intention till the cows come home. But what you really have to be able to do is figure out how to do a lot of things all the time. Right?1 (39m 0s):Go ahead, go ahead.8 (39m 1s):Oh, I was going to say, yeah, I was, I was already hustling. I was working the full-time job and then immediately go into rehearsal for four hours and then rehearsing on my own after rehearsal and then going back to a job the next day.1 (39m 13s):Well, so this leads me to a question that maybe you can answer, which is okay. So the MFA, what I'm noticing, cause I also am doing a little workshop with some of the MFA actors this year and a writing workshop because I'm really interested in writing8 (39m 28s):Ones or twos or threes. It's all weird. Now1 (39m 32s):I know it's all weird. No, these are twos. And, and anyway, what I'm learning is that maybe, and you can see what you think about this. Maybe we need to look at restructuring acting conservatories to be more like MFA programs versus BFAs. Because like yourself, we have found that the MFA actors who graduate seem way more prepared to live the life of an, of a, of an artist preneur versus the BFAs who are like, I don't know, they seem like daring, like losing it.1 (40m 12s):Right. So what is your thought on that MFA versus BFA for you?8 (40m 17s):So it's a catch 22 because obviously like I wanted my MFA experience and the BFS, you know, we worked together, we rehearsed together and we did shows together and we were offered a lot of the same classes, but also you want that distinction of like, I'm paying more to get this specialized area. And I don't know if when I was 18 or 22, if I would have been in that mindset, like, I don't know what I want it then. So I think it might've been, I think it's a lot to process studying, acting and the business of acting and to make it all make sense, unless you already have an area that you're interested in and you can like apply while you're in, in school from the business side.2 (41m 16s):Did, did your career in business set that intention for you to be an artist preneur from before you ever started the program before you were restarted your MFA?8 (41m 28s):For sure. Yeah. I, so I can, I consider getting my MBA and I was looking at like Northwestern or, and just to preface, I had really had no interesting getting my masters. DePaul was the only school that I applied for because I, I was considering moving to Chicago or LA and I just wanted the training because I didn't study theater and, and undergrad. So I just wanted the training and I was like, you know what? I grew up in I'm from Northwest Indiana. I'm from Gary. And I knew, I knew of DePaul and I really, I searched top 25 MFA programs.8 (42m 10s):And I was like, oh, this isn't in Chicago. And then I looked at like UC San Diego, because that would get me close to LA. So I applied to DePaul and going into it. I told myself that I was never going to get my masters unless it was for something that I absolutely loved, like absolutely without a doubt. So it was acting. And I knew that I knew that I didn't want to get out of school and be poor. Cause like I don't, I don't like the concept of being a struggling poor artists.2 (42m 45s):Well, thank you. Thank you for saying that, that I really appreciate that because that persists as a myth that we all need to be living in a Garret somewhere. But how did you audition when you never studied that? Or did you ever act?8 (43m 2s):I was, I was acting, I was doing like community theater and I had an agent. I was doing improv. I was doing commercials and auditioning for TV and film and doing a lot of auditioning for theater and taking like workshops and classes. I had a vocal coach, so I was training, but it was like a self study type of training. And I never really had the core foundation of what acting is all at once. So I don't honestly, it's just one of those things where I like I'm, I'm very much a spiritual. And like you put out, you get whipped back what you put out into the universe. And like this life, the life that I've been kind of creating for myself is very surreal because things just like on paper, things should not happen the way that they have, you know?1 (43m 48s):Oh, tell us about that. Okay. So what, first of all, my question, my, my feeling is good. Good for you because I think you're making it, it sounds like it's exciting. Things are happening and they're coming together for you. So I guess my first question would be is what is the most exciting thing that is happening for you? Right this second,8 (44m 9s):This second wall, I just established my production company, my film production company in December. And I haven't launched like technically to the public, right until next month. Like I have an official launch day, May 15th next year, next year, next month, while next month. And the most exciting things that are happening are like, I have a small business client lined up for mark doing marketing work. I have someone that approached me for producing a web series that we're kind of developing the scripts. And then last night, DePaul school of cinematic arts student approached me to produce their MFA thesis, which is going to be a sag, a sag agreement.8 (44m 55s):So we just locked that in and that'll be, and I, I can't talk about it too much right now, but that's, we're shooting that in August.2 (45m 4s):Congratulations.8 (45m 5s):So even all of those things are just kind of happening and I haven't even really hit the ground. Yeah.2 (45m 11s):Oh my God. You're going to skyrocket. So what ways, if any, did the theater school experience challenge what you already knew about acting from having been a professional actor before the program?8 (45m 28s):In a lot of ways, it actually made me, it kind of hurt me a lot because I was very naive going into, and I was a lot more free and a bigger risk taker. And then when I got into TTS, you know, you start peeling back all of those layers about yourself and you're getting constant criticism and people were telling you to experiment, but also it's, you can't really experiment because you're getting graded and you're supposed to be taking risks and shows, but you're also getting a rehearsal and performance grades. So they call it caused a lot of like internal conflict. Where,1 (46m 4s):Why does that happen? Is that just the nature of school? I'm really curious as to why. So we have a beginner's mindset, right. Which is a beautiful thing. A lot of us, when we go in some of us, some of, you know, some of your classmates could, like some of ours probably would have been acting since they were like one month old, but for most of us, we didn't know what the hell was going. I didn't anyway. It really was going on. Yeah. So what is it when you say it's cut? Cause you said it was kind of bad, which I totally can relate to the idea of then going from being more free, to being more self-conscious and maybe like precious more about the work, but like what happened? What is the process that makes that happen? TJ, like, I don't get it.8 (46m 42s):I think, I think a lot of it is self-induced of like being in the competitive environment and I camp, I come from a sports background and wanting to just like love competition in a healthy manner. So I think a lot of it is that. And then I think a lot of it is just taking when you're, when you're told that there's so many different things that you need to change about yourself to kind of start fresh aching. Did it eat away at you? And like, and in the midst of like your learning, all your, like exposing yourself to all of this childhood trauma that you didn't even know exist in your body is going through all of these changes.8 (47m 29s):And you're releasing of this, these emotions that you didn't know existed. The reflection was great, but I think it was also like so much in such a little time to where before I was just kinda like, fuck it. Like, I don't have anything to lose. Like I've never acted I'm going to do this my way, regardless of what they think. And I think in grad school, I got back into a mindset of like, oh no, I actually care what they think.1 (47m 58s):Well, the other thing that is because I am a, I, I was listening to the thing you said about the sports mentality or a sports background, like, okay. Like, I was really good at basketball, unbeknownst to me in eighth grade. Okay. Like, shockingly, I was like this overweight kid, but I was really good at basketball. Okay. I didn't know I was good. I just, someone was like, Hey, try out for the team. We need people. I was like, well, I'm doing nothing else. But anyway, I turned out to be really good and I had fun because I had no expectations. I was like, okay, well they want me to play. Someone wants me. And it turns out I was really good. But then when I tried out for the high school team and it was like serious business, of course I never made the team.1 (48m 41s):And I never even went back to tryouts after day one, because I was like, oh, I'm not, this is, I'm not now it's serious business. Now this is like where, where the big boys and girls really play and it's competitive, more competitive. And it's more like, it felt more businesslike, you know, instead of fun. So maybe that has, I don't know. I could really relate to that sports analogy of like, when you're free, you're going to play better. You're going to be a better athlete. Right. Cause you can. So it's like how to maintain that freedom as an artist. If we bring it back to the theater school, like how to maintain that freedom to do what you want to do and experiment. And at the same time, take what they're giving you, but not care what they think.1 (49m 22s):It doesn't seem possible to me,8 (49m 23s):It doesn't. And I think like mid grad school. So probably second year before quarantine and everything happened. I think that was the year where I was like, okay, this is my second year. I know that. I know that I w I like, I really want to set myself up for success beyond just acting. But also I know that the stakes are high, like, or I made them high for myself. Like, oh, I gotta, I have to get an agent. And then you see all of that. You see it, all of your classmates, like they're starting to get representation early, before graduation in the middle of the pandemic. So like, it's like, oh, all of this pressure, and you don't know how the industry is going to be when you get out.8 (50m 6s):And also, like, I think I got back into the mindset of which I started in of like, okay, I feel behind already, because I started acting at the age of 28 and I didn't study. I haven't been studying since I was the age of five. Like I grew up in a performing arts family, but I was not other than just doing improv and having fun and making sketches with friends. So like, I didn't have anyone around me as a mentor in my friend group or in my family that could just kind of guide me. So I got this sense of urgency when I first started like, okay, I have to learn everything possible.8 (50m 47s):So I didn't care then. But like, when I was in grad school, I just started caring more about what my life could be and what it wouldn't be if I didn't get what I wanted. And I think, I just1 (51m 4s):Think she8 (51m 4s):Was as a lot of pressure.1 (51m 6s):So did you enjoy your time there sometimes some, like, did you, what would you say if someone came to you like were coming to you and say, like, what was your takeaway from that theater school experience in terms of high points and low points?8 (51m 22s):I, you know, I've, I, I loved it despite like the first year I will say the first year was brutal. It was brutal. My, my cohort, I love my cohort. We went through like a title nine investigation the first quarter. So it was like emotionally draining, just the, you know, being in a new environment and conservatory to start. And then you have like a sexual harassment case happening that creates like our own type of social distancing thing, where the person can't be in class, we have to go through, like, we're getting Student, this was a cohort member. Who's no longer with the program.8 (52m 3s):They got expelled, but, okay. So yeah, we're going through that. And we're navigating like intimacy and like how to get around all of this in our first quarter at DePaul. So a lot happened and it drew us together a lot.2 (52m 19s):I'll say my God. I mean, that door normally happens anyway, just because of the intimacy of being in voice and speech classes, but having that to go through, I mean, that, that probably in the end, sorry for whoever got hurt in that experience, but probably in the end boded. Well, for everybody just being able to, to judge8 (52m 37s):It did it did. So yeah, that first year was rough. I also went through, like, I went through a racial profiling scenario in the theater school that ended up leaking out to media when the George Floyd things happened in 2020, like that It's a whole thing. I was there's you, where were you all in the, you, weren't in the new building. So1 (53m 5s):We're old, we're old as hell. We've we, we graduated in 97 and 98. So no,8 (53m 12s):So, so I, I was like napping before rehearsal on the second floor, which is next to like the marketing section. And there's like a couch kind of blocked off, but you know, everyone sleeps in theater school cause you spend like 98% of your time there. And there was a, there was an Encore, a duty officer patrolling. And I think he was new because he had never, I never seen him before anyway. So he like woke me up and then started questioning me and like asking why I was there and who I was and asking for my ID. And I'm like, no, I go to school here.8 (53m 52s):And then I was like, why, why did you, why did you wake me up? And then he told me that because someone saw on camera and called to check that there was someone in the building that shouldn't be there. Okay. So we went through this whole process of like investigating and there's no cameras in the theater school. So he lied about why he stopped me. It was, it was, you know, I mean older, like I'm not at a typical theater type look anyway, the case got thrown out because they couldn't like, they couldn't find enough evidence to prove that he was in the wrong, even though he did wrong.8 (54m 34s):So they kind of went by that. So that's, this is all first year, right? So the case got,2 (54m 38s):Oh my God, you've graduated.8 (54m 42s):Yeah. So the case got closed and then we just kinda let it go. But after that first year, I was like, you know what? This was a more emotional turmoil. And I refuse to have the final two years go this way. So that's when I really started focusing on, okay, I'm going to do this. I'm going to get through school and like get every ounce of it out that I can. And that, and that's kind of like this that's when I kind of started developing like truly developing my production company. It had been in the works for awhile, but that's when I really got serious about it. And then the pandemic hit and like I had a lot of extra free, free time and you know,2 (55m 23s):Oh my God, I, I don't think there, there could have been any more calamity that you were facing at this time and you and you, so you truly survive school it on such a deeper level than I think I could, I can attest to, I want to go back to something you were saying earlier, when you were talking about picking careers, you were saying, I didn't want to be a doctor and I didn't want to be a lawyer. And so my assumption was that that's what your parents are. And then you said it's a performing arts family. So tell us more about your performing arts family.8 (55m 58s):Yeah. So my mom, she trained in classical singing and she's not a professional singer. My sister was in a performing arts high school and she's 10 years older than I am. So I grew up exposed to like, I grew up exposed to her in a girl group and around artists and around theater. Like my mom was kind of a, she's a public speaker and a politician her own way because I lived in Arkansas for about five years during my childhood. And it was a small town and everyone knew her and she, she ran this, this preschool, but she also did a lot of things in the community where she would have like women's support groups and she would go do like these leadership workshops.8 (56m 46s):And she's, I also grew up in a Baptist church and in the black church. So I, I grew up seeing performances a lot in a lot of theatrical performances and seeing my mom speak and she's so like articulate and powerful and I always admired her like, wow, she can get up in front of all these people and speak and like enjoy it. And I could not because I was super shy, like super shy. And I think it's because people told me that I was shy. So I had no interest in performing. Cause I was just terrified of it. And1 (57m 24s):I have to pause there for a psychological moment. Isn't that interesting. I did not realize that about shy kids. That a lot of times they're told, oh, this is the shy one. Just like, oh, this is the, you know, whatever one. And then it becomes a self-fulfilling thing. Like this is my, this TJ, he he's the shy kid. And maybe he wouldn't have been so shy if it hadn't been reinforced and reinforced. That's so interesting. It's just like what we tell ourselves like, oh, I can't do that. I can't play basketball at camp, but I'm this one, my sisters, that one, that's so interesting to me. Cause shy you, I mean just shows how people change and w how we aren't really what people say we are.1 (58m 5s):So anyway,8 (58m 6s):I internalized it and what I've psychologically, I think what it was, I grew up around kids. There were way older than me and way more mature. So I'm a, five-year-old around a 15 year old. And my brother who was six years old or 11, and all of my cousins are like 11, 12. I'm not going to be able to articulate the way that they're articulating and expressing themselves. But, so I think I just kind of withdrew within myself when I wasn't able to do what they were doing, which ties back into me, never acting is because I never thought it was a possibility because I saw them being able to do these things, but I didn't feel like I could express myself that way. So I just did sports.2 (58m 51s):Okay. Well, and actually that's kind of a pretty good bridge. Really. If you feel like if you were any bit in your shell, sports does help people come sort of come into who they are a little bit, but what I wanted to ask you was, did you, when did you, when did you figure out that you are not shy and when did you decide that this could be something that you would do?8 (59m 19s):I think in my probably, you know, I never, I've always known that I, I wasn't shy. It just depended on who I was around. You know, what, what group I was around. Because if you, like, if you're around my childhood friends and people, I went to high school with, they'll be like, he is not fucking shy. Like what, he's the worst, actually, he's the worst. Once you get them going? I think it has a lot to do with code switching and being in environments. I was very observant as a kid, you know, because I was shy and I listened a lot.8 (1h 0m 1s):So I think it was more of, I like to observe people around me before I speak. So I knew I wasn't shy, but I, I also knew that I wanted to be able to have a voice and figure out what that looked like. And that was kind of the journey of me that led me to acting is okay. I want to be able to speak and express myself and I want the tools to be able to do it. I just don't know what that looks like.2 (1h 0m 33s):Can you tell us about some of your favorite theater school experiences like performances or, or classes8 (1h 0m 41s):Favorite? Okay. Let's Griffin is a favorite of all. She, I could talk about her for days. Phyllis is a voice, was our, my voice teacher and my second year, and just her spiritual and gentle approach and having a black woman as a faculty member was huge. Those are, so those are some of my biggest highlights. So it's probably going to be more on like me and who I had around me. So just for context, I was the only black male in the MFA program when I went in.8 (1h 1m 26s):So there were two black women in my cohort. And then the class that MFA two's ahead of me, there was one black woman. And then the, is there was one black woman. So I was the only, like, not only was I, the, I was the only black male in the MFA program in my thirties, going into an environment where like everyone out of the other younger black men were 18, 19 20. So there's like this huge gap where I didn't really, I'd never felt like I had someone that I could talk to, you know, so, but great experiences.8 (1h 2m 7s):Our lady of second year, it was majority, all black tasks, a play centered around three well Rwandan girls who saw, saw our, the Virgin mother, Mary, so apparitions of it. So that was a great to being that environment and do that. And then I did this really cool in the, the big black box in the heli. I did this, this horror comedy job, a play called neighborhood three requisition of doom. And I got to play three different characters and I love the horror genre. So it was cool to really dive into that and work with the cast.8 (1h 2m 51s):And then that final quarter of the second year, the pandemic hit. And one of our professors that we didn't know, which was great. We were terrified because we hadn't worked with him, but he's an alumni, Sean Paris. I don't know if you're aware of Sean Paris.1 (1h 3m 12s):I know Sean,8 (1h 3m 12s):Sean, Sean has become a big brother to me. He is so amazing. And that was like the point that was game-changing for me, because it was during, it was during the start of the pandemic where I had not only a black faculty member teaching, but also a black male faculty member teaching me and I, that like that was when I really felt like I was able to open up and truly start translating who I am into acting and into my art or my art1 (1h 3m 42s):So necessary. What, what did, what was Shawn teaching or was he directing?8 (1h 3m 47s):So it was all remote. He was teaching us Meisner and viewpoints, but we were translating it to on camera because everything was done. So I got to really start building my relationship with the camera, Our relationship and the environment, because there's not really on camera for, at the theater school and there needs to be more And I love TV and film is the route that I'm, I want to go mainly in my career.1 (1h 4m 18s):So what, when you say like, that really opened you up in that really? What do you think it, I guess what I'm trying to, I want to get clear about, like, what did it do for you as a performer to have that experience with Sean? Like what, what, what happened? What changed in you?8 (1h 4m 38s):I got to hear his experiences and see him work because he really, he wasn't, he was a student as well, and he, like, we got to watch him do monologues and watch him work. And I think just being in the environment where someone was like me, literally, who was like me and has experienced it, experienced the type of things that I've experienced in life. It's one of those things where like, growing up, I didn't see a lot of people that looked like me on TV or in film. So I never thought it was a possibility. And sh working with Sean in being around him really opened up what acting can look like for me.2 (1h 5m 26s):Oh, that's so beautiful. And I'm never not surprised in all of the ways that representation matters. I never thought about it mattering in the classroom, but it certainly does. I don't know if you got a chance to listen to, we interviewed Justin Ross and he talked about our lady of Cuba. And one of the things that he was talking about was that, that it sounds to me. So I'm asking you to, for clarification, it sounds to me like that production fostered a whole pivot in terms of the curriculum and, and, and how he said it to us as we warmed up differently than was sort of the, the, the usual at the theater school.2 (1h 6m 14s):And that, that production helped create a new normal for that. Is that, was that your experience?8 (1h 6m 21s):It did. And I think a lot of that has to do with our graduating class with BFA and MFA my class, my cohort was very much of like, we'll burn this institution down if we need to, like, we're, we're changing shit, like regardless. And a lot of it had to do with going through what we went through that first quarter with the title nine situation. It was like we had each other's backs and it was the same way with our lady of Cuba. Oh, if like we have each other's backs because we went through some shit in there too with like,1 (1h 6m 54s):Yeah, they, yeah, it didn't, it was like, there was a lot of bad shady shit that went down right there.8 (1h 7m 1s):A lot of shit going down. Yeah. And a lot of like unbiased prejudice and racism that was happening with the people who were working on crew, not really having an understanding of the story that we're telling and not really allowing us to tell the story and not really getting our feedback as you know, it was, it was a lot of like an all black cast, but being essentially produced by all white people was right. You know, and there was a lot of conflict during that production, but I do think,1 (1h 7m 40s):Do you feel like it changed though yeah.8 (1h 7m 43s):To change the culture of TTS? For sure. Because we start, it was, I think that production and the things that happened during it really started shifting the culture of theater in TTS before the culture started shifting in 2020s. It was kind of like the, the catalyst before that.2 (1h 8m 9s):Oh my God. Yeah. Only like 50 years too late, not too late, but 50 years late. Like w we've had a of conversations because your experience of being the only black male in, in our generation there, yeah. There was always an, any class, only one person of color, pretty much. I mean, maybe in a couple of years there were two. And certainly Phyllis was our only are ever professor of color. Is she still the only professor of, I mean, I know the new Dean is a woman,8 (1h 8m 39s):But the only 10 years1 (1h 8m 42s):Tenured and full time, even maybe, I don't know, like adjuncts. Yes. We're cause I'm adjunct. And I know in my cohort of adjuncts there are, but I think full-time like, it's still, what, what, wait, wait, what?8 (1h 8m 55s):Yep. Well, Christina, Anthony, Chris, Anthony is new. She came in our second year. So that, she's also a really great she's. She came from California and she's, she has a lot of background in activism and in the classical. So she, she is a full-time staff member, faculty member, faculty member.2 (1h 9m 18s):Do you remember your audition? And can you tell us about what your audition was like? Yeah.8 (1h 9m 22s):Yeah. So get that. So when I apply for the audition, they were like, you can do the preliminary video or you can just come to in-person and I didn't have any experience with self-tapes. And like, I was still raw. I was like, I don't want to put a monologue on video. Like I won't have a chance at all at all, if I do this, but during that time, I was already preparing for Kentucky Shakespeare auditions. So I had been working monologues and working on a lot of different things with my, my vocal coach. So I did in-person auditions. And it's very funny because I was currently in rehearsals for the show of chorus line, the musical, and then think auditions were on Wednesday, Wednesday.8 (1h 10m 17s):Yeah. Auditions were on Wednesday in Chicago. And then there was an audition for cau UC San Diego in Chicago. Like they were, you know, all of the colleges they come and I was like, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll get an audition for UC San Diego. And it happened to be the day before the DePaul auditions. So I knew that I wasn't going to go to UC San Diego just because I felt like they don't know who I am. It would be like me applying to Yale and they don't, they have no idea who I am. So I have no chance. So I used that as like a warmup for DePaul, used it for a warmup to get, just kind of get the jitters out and audition.8 (1h 10m 59s):And then as I was leaving the, I can't, we were in some hotel downtown, maybe the Hyatt or something like that, as I was leaving, they were like, Hey, we're doing auditions for Columbia and New York. If you have a headshot, a resume and want to get a slot, I'm like, oh yeah, I have these printed out. So I signed up for a slot and then I went and auditioned for Columbia. So it was like, oh, all right. I got these two auditions under my belt. I feel, I feel ready going into tomorrow. Right.1 (1h 11m 25s):Wait, can I just say how brilliant it is that you decided to use them as practice? This is the sign of someone who is ready to do their craft when they see not those opportunities as a chance to have a panic attack and die, but as a chance to use their skills and practice and get in front of people and practice, that is a true artist, entrepreneur mindset. Like that is a better mindset. Thank gosh. You had that anyway. Okay. So then do you went to Columbia? Did you do all those?8 (1h 11m 55s):I did the Columbia. I did the Columbia and you know, there were, I was in the lobby and just ki
Intro: Boz deserves a seat at the table, life coaches, let's be directLet Me Run This By You: Gina versus plots - is it just ADD? Interview: We talk to Kate Dugan about living in Morocco, her playwriting program, Sandy Shinner, Victory Gardens, shooting yourself in the foot, being ready or not to take advantage of opportunities, Outliers, regret, Sandra Delgado, the Bad Boyfriend years, Austin Film Festival, Ola Rotimi, Actor's Training Center, Meisner, Erica Daniels, Bikram yogaFULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth from me this and I'm Gina Polizzi. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? Not a whole hell of a lot. I mean, I'm, I feel I'm right. I just real, really excited to like level up my, my work life game. Like, it doesn't even mean that I, it just means that, like, I actually feel like an adult, like I just feel at 47 right now.1 (55s):I'm 47. I feel at 47. Like I'm ready. Oh girl. Wait, am I 40? No, I had a birthday. October four. Yeah. You turned 40 you're you're you're desperate to be older apparently. Oh, I've been telling people 47. Okay. So what year were you born? 75, but I'm terrible at math for 46 years. Okay. So what was I saying about being the wrong age? Oh, I just feel like at 46, right? That's my age at 46. I am finally ready to get a job, like, okay. I need a writing job, like a, B a real job, a real job of like, of like, I feel like I finally deserve, I just, I'm starting to feel like I finally deserve a seat at the table.1 (1m 47s):I love that. Yeah, I definitely do. Yeah. I mean, I just do deserve it, but like the world needs for you to have that seat at the table. Thank you. And I finally feel like that is a possibility, you know, it's interesting. And I was going to ask you about this. So there are all these Clem coaches in Los Angeles. Oh, that's funny. I was going to ask you if something about coaches, but go ahead. Okay, great. So, so God bless him and I can just see everyone is really trying to earn a living, right? So like, everyone I meet is trying to help. I know a lot of hustlers, right?1 (2m 28s):So coaches now have this language. It's fantastic. First time a coach uses language with me. I thought it was so cool. And I was so special. They all fucking use this language. Good ones, bad ones, whatever. Okay. So they get to the part. I had a free introductory session with a woman who was wonderful, nothing wrong with her. I'm talking about specific coaching language around payment and charging people talking about the fee. Okay. So therapists my in my, you know, the way it was, well, I also worked for a social service agency. So I could like just people please, my way out of it and say, well, the agency charges this, you know, all of this. Okay.1 (3m 8s):But for all the people I've seen as therapists, they're pretty straightforward. They're like, my fee is 180 an hour. This is how much your copay would. I looked up your insurance, whatever coaches have a whole nother situation where they say things like, I don't usually do this. This is what they say more than one coach say this to me. I don't usually do this, but I'm going to do something I don't normally do, which is I'm gonna let you set your fee. How much is this worth to you?2 (3m 36s):Oh God. Oh fuck you. What kind1 (3m 39s):Of invest?2 (3m 40s):$7 and 50 cents.1 (3m 42s):What kind of investment are you willing to make in your future? Whatever, whatever they get. And then2 (3m 51s):If you low ball it, it's like, well, I guess you're not recommend it to your future,1 (3m 54s):Right. Or, and you must not value. You must not yet. Right? You must not think that you're abundant enough to bring it the way. So the first time someone said this to me, I was like, this is brilliant. Like I totally, and I bought in and I was like, and I, and, and I didn't know. I was like, okay, you know, $80 a session. And then she later, and then we did that for a while later, she told me that she charges like $2,000 for, oh my God. Like a packet. And I was like, what? Okay, so right. Okay. This person did not do this the other day. I had a free introductory session. And she said that, you know, when she's a woman of color and I really adore her, but it was the same language.1 (4m 38s):And it's not, it's what they're trained to say. And so I just am, so I was so naive. I thought this was like such a cool thing. And now I'm like, wait, everyone's using the same thing, which is, I'm going to let you set your fee to tell me how much you are invested in yourself. And I'm like, wait, that's manipulative. Just set your fucking fee. And if I just said fan, and if I don't pay it, I don't pay it. And we don't work together because otherwise2 (5m 7s):You're setting up the road. I mean, setting up the dynamic where somebody is going to feel resentful, right? Like if, if you're the coach and you're not charging what you, what you think you're. I mean, what about that? Why wouldn't you turn it back on them and say like, well, I really rely upon providers to tell me what they think they're worth by having an established fee. I mean, this is, it's so crazy. It's, it's like saying actually I've had this before with, I can't think maybe babysitters, like how much you charge. Well, whatever you feel comfortable with, I don't know what to do with that. Like, I mean, I feel comfortable paying you nothing. Does that mean that's what you want to,1 (5m 48s):Right? This is what we get in trouble with when, whenever there's a barter situation as well. Like I remember, oh my God, my dad is a anyway. I remember a psychologist getting into huge trouble at a friend, my dad's friend for bartering with therapy.2 (6m 7s):Oh my God. Like, make me homemade tofu or something like1 (6m 11s):Similar, like out, like you do my yard work. I'll do. I mean, I mean, like you get into trouble. It leads to trouble. I think it's better to be out of vagueness, set your fee and not, and just say, this is my fee. And if someone wants to have a conversation about the fee and do you lower it, and then you have a further conversation, whether you decide to lower it or not is up to you. But like, yeah, I don't like this, this,2 (6m 39s):No. And let's just be direct. I mean, this is another problem that we have, like with just, I don't know, globally with communication. I just feel like people are so darn indirect and it doesn't help. I'm not, I'm not suggesting that like, I can't use more, you know, finesse or be half softer or whatever. But like at the end of the day, I just want to know what it is. You're trying to say to me, you know, and I don't want to guess about it because I'm going to guess wrong. And then you're going to feel a type of way about it. And it's unnecessary.1 (7m 12s):It's unnecessary. And I do, you know, as much as, as much as I, I always think back, I had a therapist at the, at Austin Riggs in Massachusetts and Stockbridge and Dr. Craig Pierce. Right. And he, it was interesting. I wanted to call him Dr. Craig. And he was like, no, that is not my name. And, and I was like, this guy is such a douche, but really he was setting a boundary saying, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not your friend. I'm actually not your dad. I'm not your, this isn't, we're working. We're doing serious work here. And it's either Craig or Dr. Pierce, but you can't. And at the time I was like 21 or something. I don't know what I was, but I thought what a douche, but now I'm like, oh, he actually was, was trying to help me.2 (8m 1s):Let's just get this out of the way. This is how I expect to be referred to this is how much I expect to be paid. My thing about coaches recently is I feel like everybody is doing this group delusion about, like, we can't go to therapy. So we have to say, I mean, we could pay more for a coach than we might for a therapist. We could be more revealing with a coach that we were therapists. It's just turned into the stigma of like, well, I don't want to go to therapy, but you know, I want to have a coach. And the problem with that is it's so wildly unregulated.1 (8m 34s):Yes,2 (8m 34s):Exactly. If anybody can call themselves a coach,1 (8m 37s):Right. And even this, this coach that I saw was like, yeah, it's wild Lynn regulated. And I understand that, you know, so, so there are some, you know, weird coaches and she's lovely and she's trying to make a living. The other thing that is so clear to me is everyone is trying to make a living. So there is right. Everyone's trying, I give them points for trying, like you she's trying to have a coaching business. So, so right. I don't fault her for it, but I did. I was like, so shocked that the language, I was like, oh, here we go. She's going to say the exact thing that this other coach said. So, duh, there's all kinds of like classes that for free structure that could the coaches taste.1 (9m 24s):Are you going to see her again? I mean, I'm not, no, no, no, no, no. I told her, I was like, you know, I'm just really not in a position to do coaching right now. And I'm not, I have a therapy. I have a new therapist. Let me just pay the therapist who told me what our fee was. So it was interesting. The other thing that I think was interesting is like I took, the reason I met this coach was I took a workshop on a free workshop on imposter syndrome, which is another like thing that people are really throwing around now is imposter syndrome. And self-sabotage those kinds of phrases. So I took an imposter syndrome workshop, lovely workshop. And then they said, you know, we're going to have a raffle and see who gets a free coaching session.1 (10m 5s):Well, we all, did. We all won the RAF. I mean,2 (10m 14s):Oh my God. I mean, is everything a play Like a performance piece in Los Angeles?1 (10m 24s):Yeah, it is. It is. And it's so, it's so funny, but like, so yeah, I was talking to my friend, I'm like, who went to the workshop? I'm like, oh, I won the I wasn't coaching says, she goes, so did I? And then I talked to someone else who I met when I networked with like soda. I was like,2 (10m 40s):I really respect how much it seems like people in LA are devoted to self-improvement. I really, really respect that in a way that I just feel like people out here aren't or if they are, they don't talk about it. Maybe it's what it is. But it does seem, it does seem like people in LA are either they're on a health kick or a mental health kick or they're, you know, getting sober or I just feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of1 (11m 5s):Types here.2 (11m 8s):And I appreciate the fact that everybody talks about that openly. Because if, if people are into that stuff around here, they don't talk about it. So I ended up feeling like, you know, I'm a weirdo.1 (11m 19s):I feel like it's like, like literally like old money versus new money. I swear to God it's like old, old paradigms versus new paradigms. And like, yeah, it's out in the open here, everyone's on some kick, but at the same time, it's also lessened because everybody's talking about it all the time and it becomes like the, like a F like a farce, like not sacred in any way. It's like,2 (11m 47s):Yeah. And I bet there's a lot of people who are doing the most, like in terms of self-help and they're just still the biggest, or they're just lying to themselves about the fact that they're, they feel like they're getting better, but they're really just haven't changed at all. Yeah. I mean, I think that like, living anywhere is a problem. Well, let me get out of here. I feel like, wow, you can really feel the Puritan vibe. I mean, it's yes. You really it's like, we don't talk about feelings. We, we talk about things on the surface. We don't reveal, you know, very much about ourselves. Wow. Yeah. Keep everything. It's all, it's very buttoned up.2 (12m 27s):Wow. When I first moved here, I really appreciated that, you know, I've done some wild swings geographically, like yeah. Growing up in Sacramento was kind of one sort of thing unto itself that doesn't relate that much to California. Yeah. And then going to Chicago was like, oh, okay. I like this. These people are really down to earth. You know, then I got kind of sick of that. And then I moved to back to California, to the bay area. And I really was into that for awhile. And then I felt like, oh my God, this is all. So this is all bullshit. Like talking about everybody was an imposter. I felt like everybody was low key. So aggro. And then just this hippie, you know, talking about free level the time.2 (13m 8s):And then we moved to New York and I was like, oh, people will just get right to the point here. I really appreciate that. And I never got tired of that, but then we moved here and I thought, oh, this is new England. This is what the pilgrims they've decided a way to be. And it's very buttoned up and they haven't changed in, you know, 300 years. For, you know, have like a little ideas folder in my notes where I just make it little snippets of ideas and write them down. And I've had like six or seven that I realized are all circling around the same idea, which is, I want to have a movie or some, or some type of a script where it's a superhero, but the superhero, their power is that they can interact through some type of magic.2 (14m 8s):They can intervene in somebody else's life when they're making bad decisions. This is sort of romantic coaching and like, Hmm, maybe it's virtual reality, but they, they can kind of put themselves into the body of the person who's making the bad decisions and then help them. You know, it's like, it's basically like the therapist having none of the barriers to, you know, wellness or whatever, and just kind of getting right in there at the same time as this is a comment about how we look to other people to tell us how to behave. Anyway, the superheroes name is psyche and I love it. And, and I'm, I'm it, I'm it.2 (14m 49s):I want to kind of continue with this idea, but I am woefully terrible with plot, as I think we've talked about before. I don't know if you're talking about the podcast before and it's such a, it makes perfect sense that my given my own psychology, that plot would be the hardest thing,1 (15m 11s):Because more that,2 (15m 13s):Well, my, my mother is the first person to tell you, she's never done anything with a plan. She's always just reacted to whatever has come her way. In fact, the idea of like having a goal and working towards it was literally something I never learned until I met my husband. Wow. When like a week, a day. And he was like, what are you going to do today? And I said, oh, I think I'm going to sit out in the sun. And he said, what? I thought you were trying to be an actress. I thought you were like, well, you don't have any time to sit down and do anything. Like you have a goal. And that, and that's been my thing is like, I, I have these vague undefined or have had vague undefined goals yet that in some ways I'm working towards, but because there's no sort of master plan or not a conscious one, if don't know how to get from a, to B to C I know everything about what it looks like as you're traveling from a to B to C, I had to describe it and everything like that.2 (16m 10s):But as far as charting a course of like, this is where I'm starting, and this is where I'm going to end up. That's pretty new to me. And I feel like that's why I struggle with clot. Cause I just don't have like a lot of idea of how something unfolds.1 (16m 26s):Seriously. Literally just ADHD. Could that be,2 (16m 30s):Oh, maybe you have ADHD.1 (16m 33s):Did we talk about2 (16m 33s):This? I have add1 (16m 36s):Or add. So if you have that, this is when I talk to writers who have add that this is their exact situation. Oh, okay. Excellent. With dialogue, excellent. With everything except the actual plot pointing to a, to B, to C you just, I think you just need a class in some add meds. Like I'm serious. I, I don't think, Hey, this is not a, this is, this could be a very practical thing. So, so my father had some big problems, but was a brilliant man in a lot of ways, right? His dissertation, he could see the whole thing where it was going to end up.1 (17m 16s):He knew what he wanted people to feel when he read it. He knew he could not write the thing. So my mother ended up writing it for him. Please don't take your degree away possibly anyway, because he couldn't do the, the actual thing. So I I'm wondering, just like my thing was kind of practical of finding a coworking space and not getting a divorce kind of a situation like yours is literally like, could be a physiological response to too much stimuli going on and how to get to, to your vision. So, and maybe2 (17m 54s):I need a coach.1 (17m 56s):Well, Gina funny, you should bring that up because I was going to say to you, how much is it worth for? You know, I tried to tell you as being your coach on our pocket,2 (18m 6s):That would have been so slick. That would have been like, you're like, I, wasn't going to mention this to you, but I'm actually becoming okay.1 (18m 12s):I'm actually a coach now. So anyway, that is my 2 cents. When you start saying, when you start talking about that, I was like, wait a second. This is not a psychological problem. I don't think,2 (18m 25s):Okay. I mean, you know what? That sounds right to me.1 (18m 29s):Well, it makes a lot of work. You're not lazy and you're not, it's not like you don't have ambition. That's not true because you we've talked a lot on the podcast about how, like having some sense of power is really important to you. Maybe not fame, but power, the power that comes with that. So I'm like, all right, so that's not someone that has no ambition, right? So that's gotta be a different mechanism in the brain. That's not connecting in some way because you're also a people pleaser. So if someone, so my guess is if I w I would wonder if we did an experiment, like if you were in a class, right. And the class person was the teacher, the person in authority was like, and you trusted this person or mentor, whoever writing group, whatever the higher power is in that moment said, she said to you, Gita, you must do, you know, act one must be written by this date.1 (19m 18s):I wonder if you do it,2 (19m 20s):I would, I totally would. In fact, that's a part of me has been like, should I try to get into an MFA program? I don't think that's the answer. I class first just take a class,1 (19m 31s):The script anatomy, there's all these classes that like, that we can talk about later, but like take a class. I know I should have taken a class and not enrolled in an MFA program. Like that was what I, I mean, it was,2 (19m 44s):Can I tell you one of my favorite slash least favorite things in the world is when I have a big problem. And the answer is like, something really is. I both love and hate that. I hate it because I think, wow, why didn't I think of that? And why have I spent so much time just like ruminating and cogitating and wringing my hands about something that has like a pretty straightforward answer. Yeah.1 (20m 6s):And a lot of times, a lot of times us, I think kids that weren't really, for whatever reason, didn't get what they needed, emotionally, make all these things. Our brain works overtime to try to figure things out when this solution, like, I remember, like when I started having panic attacks, I thought I had schizophrenia. I thought I went to the doctor. He's like, you have a panic disorder, take this pill. And I was like, what? Yeah.2 (20m 31s):How could it be that easy? How could it be? How could it be? I feel like in that if I were in your shoes, I would think, no, no, no, I don't just have something that everybody else has. I have a truly unique, right. Is that what you were feeling?1 (20m 44s):Yeah. I thought I was going to end up in a state run nursing and I had a panic disorder. It was so I couldn't, and I think it gets wrapped up in shame and wrapped up and I should be able to, I could be, you know, all that shit, but yeah, it, it, it was like, he was like, no, no, no, no, you have something called a panic disorder. It's in this book and it was a DSM. He was like, it's in this book. And he read the, the stuff, the criteria. And I was like, I had that. He was like, no shit. Which is why I'm telling you to take this pill, the Zoloft. And I was like, wow, it didn't even cross my mind. The other thing is, nobody tells you about it. Like a lot of the struggle that we have, I think at, or at least that I have is internal. Right. So I don't, I'm not sharing it with people, which is why I think the podcast is good because maybe someone's listening to the podcast going, oh fuck.1 (21m 29s):Maybe I just have a panic disorder or maybe I have add, or I need a class instead of my life is over.2 (21m 36s):I'm terrible. I'm fundamentally incapable of getting any better. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Totally. Well, thank you for that. What a gift1 (21m 42s):You gave me? Well, yeah, that's just what came forward. I'm like, wait, this is not a psychological weirdo, psychological pathological emotional problem.0 (21m 55s):Well,4 (22m 0s):Today on the podcast, we're talking to Kate, Dougan a playwriting major from DePaul theater school who currently lives in Morocco, where she teaches English. She is also a performer and has some interesting stories about her road from wanting to be a performer to deciding, to be a writer. So please enjoy our conversation with Kate Dougan2 (22m 27s):Oh my God. You haven't changed you one1 (22m 30s):Tiny bit. Let's say.3 (22m 34s):Thanks. Wow. Nice to see you girls. Do you guys look the same? I can't believe it. 30 years almost, right?2 (22m 41s):Yeah. Don't say it like that.3 (22m 43s): sorry. It's been 30 years since I graduated from high school. 25, since I graduated from college.1 (22m 53s):It's a long2 (22m 54s):You go by Kate.3 (22m 55s):Yeah. I go by Kate now. I grew up from Katie. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah.2 (23m 3s):Well, Kate Dougan congratulations used for five to theater3 (23m 7s):School. I did. I did.2 (23m 10s):You are now in of all places, Morocco, what the heck's going on in Morocco?3 (23m 15s):I'm teaching a high school here at an American high school. Yeah. My husband is Moroccan. So that's how we ended up here. We met in Chicago, worked together and in 2018. Yeah. We just decided it was, you know, he, his parents are, you know, getting a little older and he had not lived in Morocco for about 20, 25 years. And so he decided, you know, he wanted maybe try to come home for a little while. And so he got a job at an American high school. He's a teacher, he's a math teacher. And so we came and then I, I started sort of in one job that didn't really work for me.3 (24m 2s):Cause I initially thought like I was coming to teach theater. Always. The reality is never quite the same as what everybody says is gonna happen. And so, but when we got here, so I tried to teach a theater class, it didn't school wasn't quite ready for it. Then I sort of morphed into teaching English as a second language. And then last year during, well, during 20 19, 20, 20, I got my teaching accreditation to teach high school English. So I teach English language and literature. So yeah. Yeah. How cool do you like it? I do, actually.3 (24m 43s):I like it a lot. I, you know, everybody says the teaching is the hardest job and in many ways, teaching really is the hardest job. Like you, it's a lot of work and it's kind of, it's almost like doing like five shows a day, but you have to write all of your own material and learn all of your own material. And you know, it, it, you have to sort of, you have to really be ready for like a group of high school kids. I mean, these are, you know, they, they want to be engaged and they want to be entertained and they want to, you know, and if you can do those things and talk to the kids and be real with them, then you know, it works.3 (25m 28s):And on days that you're not quite up for it, it's a little tough. But yeah, I do like it a lot. I mean, I think that if you like to be in the room with the kids, then, then you you're, you're going to win, you know? Yeah. There's, I think that there's unfortunately, a lot of teachers who don't necessarily like children. And so you kind of questioned that sometimes. I'm sure we've all had experiences as students in that kind of situation. But yeah, I liked the kids. I liked being with high school kids, you know, they're alive and interested and you know, they haven't given up yet.3 (26m 11s):It's true. There, there, I read something to them the other day about, yeah, they're not dead yet. They're still alive. So that's, that's what I like about it.1 (26m 21s):The other thing I was going to say is that my, my mom was a teacher and she used to say the first year of teaching, like full-time was the hardest year of her life. And she like cried every day after school and it was the most rewarding. And so I, yeah, yeah.3 (26m 39s):I mean, my first year was 2019 or 20. So 2019 to 2020, I was doing my accreditation and I was teaching part-time and that was March, 2020, obviously it was all online. And then September, we started back, it was my first year teaching full time. And, you know, we had one class that was online and then everybody, you know, the kids had the option to be online if they wanted to. So there was one class online and then there were students in school and yeah, you're just trying to, you know, learn, figure out what you're doing and teach yourself the material and, you know, stay alive and handle whatever it was.3 (27m 20s):It was, it was a very stressful year. Last year I got to the, I got to June and I was really tired and really stressed out. And I just, you know, the good part of that is I have declared this year. I will never let myself get into that state again, you know, whatever I have to do to maintain my balance is really important to me. And so far it seems to be working. I I'm feeling much more on top of things this year, so. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah.2 (27m 55s):So beef, let's talk about the period of time you decided to go to theater school. You did, you caught up on the east coast.3 (28m 7s):Yeah. I, well, not exactly. I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I know. I always thought of it as east coast. And then years later I was like, I think Pittsburgh is really Midwest. Like, I mean, it's, it's like this close to Ohio where I was from was like this close to West Virginia. So there's a whole other element going on. So it almost, you know, it is east coast, I guess, officially, but it has sort of a Midwest sort of feel like blue collar, you know, town, but yeah, so I grew up in Pittsburgh. I, I don't know.3 (28m 48s):Do you guys just want me to do grow2 (28m 49s):Performing and I do high school plays3 (28m 52s):And stuff. Okay. So not, not as much as I would've liked. I knew from a very young age that I did want to go into theater. We, we lived up the hill from a small college Washington and Jefferson college. I'm from Washington, Pennsylvania. And you know, they built a new like art center one year. And I remember going to see my first theater show there and it had just opened. And I think it was the Rainmaker. I think my dad knew the guy, the place Starbuck, and I just, you know, like, so we want to see the play and it was just the whole experience of it, you know, going to the theater and sitting in the audience and the lights and the people.3 (29m 36s):And I just remember like when the lights went down at the, at the end, I was just like, that's what I wanna do. I wanna do this, you know, how old were you? I was eight actually. So I, yeah, it got me at an early age. I wish I had gotten set on something else a little bit. But1 (30m 0s):Why Did the theater break your heart?3 (30m 5s):Ah, did the theater break? My heart? Well, I mean, it's, you know, it's, everybody's journey is different. Yeah. I mean, in some ways it's not that it broke my heart now. I feel like I just wish I had no, of course. I mean, I wouldn't change anything. I wouldn't change the trajectory. I wouldn't change that love, you know, like that feeling. But I think just like when you experience something like that, it's such a young age, like your mind gets like really set on that thing. And like, I think it's important to grow and change and you know, obviously I've done that and I've done other things.3 (30m 46s):It just, I don't know. No, because I don't wish it was really different. So I, but I, you know, we all have our moments, right. I'm sure. Of course.1 (30m 57s):Yeah. That's what this whole podcast is about where we were like, what the fuck was that? And theater broke my heart over and over again. I thought it was going to be one thing or the business and I, it was not that thing. So I, for me, it's been a off and on heartbreaking experience with the theater. And that doesn't mean that there hasn't been intense love to, you know what I mean? Like, I think it's all part of the same, but yeah. So you, you, from a young age, you were like, you saw Rainmaker and you were like, that's it? Yeah.3 (31m 25s):So that's what I want to do. And so, I mean, but like I said, it was a small town there wasn't like a whole lot going on there. I never really took any acting classes or anything until I was in high school. You know, I went like there was a, there was an acting teacher at my high school. And I just remember like going to her class and being like super excited to finally like, get to do this thing. And like, you know, she asked everybody to kind of give a spiel like about what they want to do. And so I talked about it. I was like, this is really what I want to do with my life. I'm really excited about it. I, I just, you know, this is it for me.3 (32m 6s):And, and I just remember her, like, it wasn't necessarily that day, but like at some point she just kind of looked at me and she was like, oh, you're the one that wants to be an actress. And it was like that first, like, I'm sure you guys have experienced this. It was like that first experience of like, oh, I guess like me being excited about it, isn't necessarily going to get people to be positive with me. There was certain that there was an element of bitterness, I guess, which I think happens to people, you know, and I think it happens justifiably.3 (32m 53s):And so I think, you know, it's very important to me that I don't become bitter that I, and I'm glad I haven't, but I, I felt it was a very, it was like that first experience, like, okay, this is somebody that I, I, this is something I want to do. And this is somebody that can help me. And she was just not very enthusiastic about being helpful to me, you know, like, yeah. Who knows I was, it was kind of a weird year for me. So maybe I, you know, wasn't a very good student or something, or maybe she,1 (33m 25s):She, she, that's a shitty you you're probably right on. No, no, because I know because I've done that to people. Actually, I, I feel like I've dampened peoples. I do this with my husband all the time where I rain on his parade. And she rained on your parade a little bit. I'm not saying it's not that she doesn't have good reason to rain grades, but she did. And that, that is sort of, we hear it a lot. So I would think for someone to either either blatantly or inadvertently reign on a youngster's parade in terms of their artistic dreams.3 (33m 57s):So like at high school, I wasn't really that, like, I, I think I, we did like a play for my English class or something. So I don't know. I, I try, like I was in speech and debate and I went to one meet. And let me tell you like the power of the mind. Like I got laryngitis that day. Like I got laryngitis on the bus on the way to the meet and couldn't talk all day. And then on the bus on the way home I was able to speak. And so, you know, I think, you know, there's, yeah. I mean, that's a, that's a whole other . I mean, does that mean you1 (34m 37s):Didn't keep going with speech and debate3 (34m 39s):Or you had no, I don't think I did. I don't really remember. I obviously it was not a huge part of my life because I think at some point I was like, okay, this is not the person that's going to help me. I'm not getting feeling very positive vibes here. And so I'm gonna try to, you know, do other things. So then I started taking acting classes.1 (34m 60s):Did she wait to interrupt? Did she run the speech and debate thing too?3 (35m 3s):Yes, she did. Oh, no.1 (35m 5s):So that's, I mean, there you go. I mean, that's3 (35m 8s):How my mom1 (35m 9s):Running.3 (35m 11s):Yeah. Who knows. Anyway, so then I started going to like taking acting classes in downtown Pittsburgh. There was the civic light opera, and they had like an academy of, it was musical theater, but I just took straight acting classes. I was never like really a singer or anything like that. And that was a really positive experience for me. I had a great teacher, Jill, and, you know, we did a lot of scene study and she was, she was the opposite, you know, she was a very positive person, very loving and sweet. And, you know, really, you made me feel good about what I was doing and what I could do.3 (35m 52s):So, you know, there are those people as well that, you know,2 (35m 57s):Who suggested that you could pursue it for college.3 (36m 5s):I mean, I think it was never, for me, it was just never a question like, but I long story, I didn't, I didn't, I wasn't in the acting program at DePaul, I was in the play. I was in the wait. I was in the, I was in the playwriting program. Yeah.2 (36m 27s):Why do I remember you as being in class with me? But I feel like I remember you as being one of the actors. I remember seeing you on Steve.3 (36m 38s):No, I, I, I doubt it. I, I, unless2 (36m 42s):Were you in a play onstage?3 (36m 44s):I don't think so. No. I mean, unless it was like some kind of workshop for one of my plays or something like that, but no,2 (36m 54s):I mean, do you remember me at all? I3 (36m 56s):Do remember. Yeah. I remember you guys. I remember you completely. I just, so I think I graduated. I was a year older than you guys. I think. When did you graduate? I graduated in 96. Okay. So yeah, one year older. You will, so, okay, go ahead.2 (37m 14s):Awesome. Yeah, that happened. What the hell?3 (37m 19s):Well, let me, let me dial back to, to where, cause you asked me if my teacher wanted me to go to college and for me, like there was just no other, I was going to school for theater and there was no stopping me. You know, it was funny. I've listened to some of your podcasts and, and I listened to Caitlin Kiernan's and she was just like, you know, I was 18. Like, what do you, you know, like what did I think? I don't know, but I just, this is what my mind was set on. So, so I'm sure she, she, I remember her telling me that that acting teacher, she was like of all of my, you know, she put me aside and this one other girl, Heather, who I think has actually done pretty well. I think she lives in LA and you know, there's not a lot of TV work.3 (38m 0s):And she was like, you know, she's like of my students. I think you guys have real potential to make something in this business. So she was very positive. So then I started auditioning. I auditioned for probably not enough schools. I should've heard DePaul and like Carnegie Mellon and I think some other, a couple of other schools. And so then I kind of had my mind set in Chicago. My brother lived in Chicago for a couple of years and I had gone to visit him. And I just really like fell in love with the city. And I always knew that I wanted to go to school in a city. So I kind of got my mind set on Chicago. I was like, well, if I get in the car to Carnegie Mellon, I'm from Pittsburgh obviously, but I didn't.3 (38m 45s):So then I auditioned for DePaul and I didn't get in my first, I didn't get in. And so I decided to take a year off and try again, which my dad was not super happy about, but I just had my mindset. I was like, no, I'm going to take year off. And then I'm going to try it again. I'm going to audition again. And that's it. And it ended up being, you know, I think taking your off was a good thing for me. I auditioned again and I didn't get in again. And so, you know, it's funny, like listening to these stories of you guys, like, and all the struggles that you went through and it's like, well, you know, well, at least you, you got in what's true.3 (39m 33s):Like there are different struggles. Yeah. There are different struggles for sure. But then so, and I, when I didn't get in the second time, I was just, I don't know. I think I was just set on Chicago. I was kind of set on DePaul. They'd offered me a place in theater studies program. And so I took it and then I, I decided when I was there to do join the playwriting program, and this is 1996 or 1992. And I was like, at that point I was like, literally like the only person in the playwriting program. My first year, there was like one person who was like a sophomore.3 (40m 14s):I think it was like the second or third year that Dean Corrin was there. He had just been taken on to start this program. And so, yeah. And then as I went through like a few other people joined like Diane Herrera and I think Adam Matthias was also in the writing program. And so while I was there kind of grew a little bit. Yeah. So I, it was, you know, I mean, I don't know. You just want me to keep talking? I feel like2 (40m 51s):I was just ask a question about the theater studies program, because I don't know that we've ever really talked about that program and, and how you just described it, made it sound like that's where people can go to figure out what non-acting thing they want to do in theater.3 (41m 9s):I mean, I think I, to be honest, you know, I mean, let's not kid ourselves college is about making money. Right. For, for most people it's, for-profit, it's private school. I think that they wanted to build the program and yeah. I don't know what it was. I mean, I think I did pretty good on my SATs. My grades were decent and I don't know, maybe my audition was okay. And so it was sort of, yeah, like, you know, they offered it to people like, you know, if you want to come, you're not invited to the acting program, but if you want, you can come to the theater studies program. And so I said, no, the first year, and then the second year I was like, I'm ready to go to school. I mean, sometimes I think I probably would've been better off like going to like a smaller school that didn't necessarily require an audition or something like that, but say levee.3 (41m 57s):Right. And, and so, yeah, I was like, well, I guess I'll do playwriting. And I, I, I mean, I'm glad I did it for many reasons. It was not, it ended up being a really good choice for me. I mean, I think like listening to you guys talk about the competition and, you know, sort of like, I don't do well with rejection. You know, I think you really, I don't, I don't necessarily like love to be the center of attention. And I think like, as an actor or at least to be successful on some level, you have to want that attention.3 (42m 42s):I mean, you guys do, do you feel that you like being the center of attention? She does.1 (42m 49s):Like, I love, I am constantly and mine is, if you listen to the podcast, like we talk about the psychological stuff. Like, I, I still, you know, feel like I wasn't treated right as a kid. So I'm constantly, I'm so transparent about it. I'm constantly trying to get the approval of my mother. Who's dead by the way. So yeah, I, I can say that, like, I want to belong and I want someone to say you are special and I pick you. That's like my dark sort of shadow side. And it always will be for me. I think even if I work through it, I think we all have our shadow sides and that's, and that's mine. And I think it transformed into, oh, maybe if this school likes me, that will give me that sense, but I never got that from DePaul because, you know, one it's that set up for that too.1 (43m 37s):People are bitter and weird and three it's an inside job. Yeah.3 (43m 41s):Yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, I think for me, like part of it was, I am the youngest of four and so I think it was like that craving for attention. Like I totally get what you're saying there. So, I mean, I like to be on stage, but like, I don't necessarily like the auditioning part of it and I don't necessarily, you know, like have to be the center of attention to parties or any of those things. But I did, you know, I really did enjoy, I really do enjoy acting like I, I do like it, but so1 (44m 12s):You, you,3 (44m 12s):You were doing a playwriting BFA. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You did.1 (44m 18s):And your plays got workshopped.3 (44m 21s):Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the program was still very fledgling and I think because, you know, I wasn't in the acting program, you know, I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder, I think admitted,1 (44m 43s):Wait, I just have to say, like, there's something really fierce about auditioning twice for the program and then going to theater school, studying theater studies, look at your, at a young age to say, you know what? I fucking want to go to school. So I'm going to, I mean, talk about, I, I see it as, you know, I hate calling people brave, cause I think it's kind of sending, but I think it's fierce to say I'm still going to go to this school. I mean, of course you had, I would have a chip on my shoulder so big. I wouldn't go. Yeah. You went and got an education for God's sake in a degree.3 (45m 16s):Yeah. And I, I, I got a really good education, you know, that's part of what was really positive for me. And I'll go back to the question about workshopping in a second. But what was positive for me is that the theater school had this glitch in their, in their system in because the acting students had to take so many classes cause you guys had yoga and movement to music and scene study and whoever knows what else. So like as part of your tuition, you could take up to 24 credits. And so what I did is I then got a really great liberal arts education.3 (45m 57s):I took poetry writing classes. I took like performance of literature. I took video editing. I took intro to film. I took like,1 (46m 10s):We'll do you could do that Kate? Like, how did you figure out like, oh, I have 24 credits. I'm going to use these.3 (46m 15s):I really don't. I don't know that anybody told me, I think I just figured it out at some point. And I was like, okay, well I guess I'm going to get my money's worth and I'm going to go take these other classes and these other schools and learn how to write and learn how to make films and do intro to film and learn, you know? So like I really loved college. I don't, you know, the theater school was, I don't have anything negative to really say about the theater school either. I knew what I was getting into. Like I said, I sort of had that chip on my shoulder to begin with about being part of the theater school about feeling like Jen, like you said, like about feeling like an insider, but you know, all my friends were in the theater school.3 (47m 2s):I, I love theater people. I really enjoyed that experience. But, but part of my good college experience happened outside of it in many ways, just because I kind of took the reins and I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have some fun with this and get a good education and, and play. And I, I loved it. I loved school. I loved learning new things and try new things. I even, I even took like a leave of absence from the theater for theater school for one quarter. Cause I did a, an overseas, I went to Ireland for a quarter.3 (47m 43s):So, and to do that, I had to take a leave of absence from the theaters. Yeah. Does that seem familiar? Yeah, probably Kelly was crying because I was supposed to be her roommate, but I never got which Kelly Kelly and Mick Adams. I was when I came back from Ireland, we were supposed to be roommates, but I never called and she just got her own apartments. And then I was like, oh my God, I don't know where I'm going to live. But yeah. So I, you know, anyway, so back to my theater school experience, so was, was positive also for playwriting. I, I don't know. I mean, I, you know, Dean Corrin was great, you know, we took like dramatic criticism we had yeah.3 (48m 30s):You know, another, another theme that I have, you know, listening to your podcast and you guys talked about it a little bit is like self-sabotage or not taking advantage of the opportunities presented to you. I feel like, because I kind of had that chip and I wanted to be an actor. Like I didn't necessarily take advantage of the opportunities, like playwriting opportunities, which came easier of course, because cause that's the way it goes, because if you want something it's not going to be, you know, it's not going to be easy, but if you're kind of, sort of like, well maybe, maybe not then the opportunities roll in, but yeah, like we had a poetry or a playwriting workshop class with Sandy Shinar she worked at victory gardens at the time.3 (49m 18s):Yeah. And she was good friends with Dean and like he had her come in as like a guest teacher one day and we were going to work my play and he'd given it to her and she had read it and, and I was just, I don't know. I, I just was like, oh God, I hate that. I really don't want to work on it. Do we have to do this? Can we do something else? And like how we shoot ourselves in the foot, you know, like what an opportunity really? And because I was insecure and scared, I'm sure like whatever psychological, you know, thing you want to come up with that, that, that we, we do to why, why we do these things for ourselves.3 (50m 1s):So, you know, and I, I had other opportunities like that along the way that I didn't necessarily take advantage of. But1 (50m 8s):Did you pull your play or did you work3 (50m 10s):On it? We didn't work on it. No, because there was somebody else in the class who was much smarter than I was and was like, oh, well here's my play. We can do my play. We can work on mine today. Yeah. I know. That's really that's.1 (50m 26s):I mean, I totally relate. And I think it, it just speaks to many things, but like, you weren't ready for that and that's it. And I, I'm starting to look at things like ready versus not ready versus good and bad. So you just weren't ready to have that experience. And we can look back and, you know, I listened to Gina and I talk to people on and we're like, we blame ourselves for that, but you just simply didn't have the emotional resources to take in that experience. And that sucks. But,2 (51m 1s):And when you're not ready, it, people could say anything to you. That person could have said, we want you to be the new resident playwright, a victory gardens. You would've said, I don't think so.1 (51m 13s):I could've gotten the laryngitis again. Like it it's, we couldn't stop.3 (51m 19s):That's so interesting. I mean, I agree with you. I think you're, I think you're right. And that's, that's hearing it come from you. It, it, it's nice Rather than me saying it to myself or trying to figure out, like, why, why do I do these things to myself?1 (51m 37s):And it's interesting having done all these podcasts, Kate, we see it over and over again. So we have the data to tell you that people have, we've heard like so many people like with these ICTs being offered these things and being like, no, I'm not going to move to LA because you know, I have an apartment in Wrigleyville. Like I'm not going to be a movie star. And people are like, what's the D we all have that. I think that's part of growing up. And I also also think it's part of expecting young people to really handle a lot of things we cannot handle.3 (52m 11s):Yeah. They're one of the books that I, I teach my students is called outliers. Have you guys read it? It's Malcolm Gladwell. And he, you know, there's a section in where he talks about practical intelligence and you know, how some people, the people that are successful, you know, they grow up with a certain family life, or, you know, maybe it's about money. It's about education. It's about these things. But it's also just knowing how to handle yourself in certain situations and knowing how to take advantage of the opportunities that are presented to you. And I think if you aren't, if you don't have that, or you're not taught that it is hard sometimes to, you know?2 (52m 50s):Yeah. And what, I just heard you, I mean, when you said, it's good to hear that from us, that made me think, oh, you've been beating yourself up about this for 25 years to yourself. Why did I squander this opportunity? Which, I mean, whether or not you did it, it's completely human. That, that you might occasionally have that thought, but have you spent a lot of time in, in regret?3 (53m 18s):I mean, I don't think so. I think I don't spend a lot of time in regret. You know, I definitely had moments over the years. I, well, a few years back, I sort of had like a little bit of a, not a breakdown, but like, I think of my midlife crisis started and like my, you know, I have two kids and my daughter was, you know, eight and my son was four and it was just kind of like, you know, you know, when kids are babies, it's just baby, baby, baby, baby. You don't, you don't have time to think about yourself. So who cares? And then like when you start to get back to yourself a little bit, it's just like, okay, I'm, you know, I'm 42 or, you know, whatever, and what have I really done?3 (54m 8s):And you know, what am I doing? And you know, is this, this, this it, I mean, I, I was teaching yoga. So, I mean, that's also a part of my journey. I mean, like I, so when I got out of school, like I did acting for a while, like, I've done some very bad independent films. Do you guys know Sandra Delgado? Oh yeah. Yeah. She, I like, we did a really bad film together in the early two thousands. And, you know, like I did like a horror film and I was like, had some small parts as mother independent films.3 (54m 52s):And, you know, I, I was trying to act and auditioning and auditioning and auditioning and like I did a couple of plays, but it was just never, you know, I just could never get to a certain point. I really just, I would have done theater and crappy theater and whatever, but I just, I couldn't, you know, for whatever reason, you know, I have the, that decade that I called the, the bad boyfriend years, so which we can all relate to on some level, which I, you know, where we all waste a lot of energy on people who don't deserve it. Oh yeah. Yeah. And then, so, so then, yeah, like a few years back, so it was kind of not in a good place.3 (55m 39s):And I was like, okay, well, I guess it's now or never. And I, I finally finished the play, so I went back to writing. Yeah. That's huge. That's awesome. You know, I finally cause I, I was like, okay, I guess if I'm going to try, I guess I gotta try. And, you know, I, I really discovered a few things. I discovered that I like writing. I, I feel good when I'm doing it. You know, there's a lot of positives to it in that way. I finished the play. I, it got, it got into like the second round at the Austin film festival.3 (56m 19s):So that was, yeah, that was pretty cool. I guess, since it was just like my first foray out of doing anything in theater in quite some time, and I had a stage reading in Chicago and then it sort of, you know, petered out after that. I, I was sending it out, sending it out, but no, no, no hits after that. But so, you know, I'm kind of gearing up to write again. So, no, I don't, I don't have, I don't, I haven't been beating myself up about it. I think that, you know, life takes a course and you can only do what you are doing in the time that you're doing it.3 (57m 0s):You only have the information that you have. You only have the life skills that you have. You only have the resources that you have. And so I think regret, I don't waste a lot of time on regret. I have enjoyed listening to the podcast and sort of like you said, Jen, like everybody's story is the same, a little bit. And that, you know, a lot of people who, you know, I've looked up to and had a lot of respect for and were really good actors and good at what they did. It just didn't happen for them. And so that's, that's like, I, yeah.2 (57m 37s):So I'm still just trying to, I'm still trying to wrap my head around why I just remember you as being an acting student, maybe it had to do with that. You were friends with Kelly and maybe because of your friendship with Kelly.3 (57m 54s):Yeah, probably that was it. Yeah. I mean, I was, I was friends with all the apartment three crew. I, yeah.1 (58m 2s):So I mean, I like, I like that even like deeper in my brain, I was like, what if I was taking on your desire to be an actor? I saw you as an actor because it was so strong that you wanted to be an actor. Like, I literally have an image of you on stage, but I actually can't3 (58m 22s):Be somebody else. Yeah. I1 (58m 25s):It's your face. It's really weird. So, anyway,3 (58m 27s):I mean, I guess at one time, like I had a play that maybe I did a stage reading of with Darryl Dickerson at school and maybe some other actors, maybe Kelly was in it. I don't know. But that would have really been like in a classroom. Yeah, yeah, no, I not an actor or, I mean, I am an actor, but none of the theater school. Yeah.2 (58m 54s):So these days, I mean, when you're talking about the work of being an English teacher, it reminded me actually, ironically, just a few days ago, I ran across a notebook that I haven't opened since I was a teacher of social studies and drama. And I re remember that I used to take for social studies. I used to write my lesson like a monologue kind of, and sort of not memorize it exactly, but almost like repeatedly rehearse it because it was not information that I already knew. I was learning the lesson right before I taught it. And teaching is so performative that during that time I was doing theater at the time.2 (59m 35s):But even if I weren't, I think I would have felt fulfilled in a performance way. Do you have that feeling about being a teacher? That it feels like a performance?3 (59m 50s):I guess what I, I do like the exchange of energy, like, like you would get from say a live audience or something like that. I don't know that I necessarily look at it as a performance, but I do feel like, yeah, you, obviously you have to be ready. You have to know what you're going to say. You have to know the material. And like, even if it is you just learning it that day or getting, you know, I feel that exchange, like, I feel good after class, like after talking with the kids and being with the kids and talking at them and, and teaching them, it does feel that way, like a little bit like that exchange of energy that you get from an audience a little bit.3 (1h 0m 35s):Yeah.2 (1h 0m 37s):Do you otherwise feel a kind of a need to do, do you have a need for any other type of creative outlet or your guys you're doing it because you're kind of getting back into3 (1h 0m 48s):My goal is to, yeah. To start writing again, like, I, I don't know how, what your, how you guys write. Like, I don't know what if you're constantly writing all the time or for me it's, it's like, I tend to sort of get inspiration and then work on something, you know, in a, in, in a period of time. Or if I create the discipline, like when I finished this play, I was getting up at like four 30 every day. I was teaching yoga at the time and the kids were, you know, still pretty young. And so I knew that the only way it was ever going to work is if I was disciplined enough to, you know, set that time aside, this is my time, my time to write.3 (1h 1m 33s):And so now, you know, after, like you said, you know, that first year is so hard, so now I'm starting to get my legs again. And I'm hoping to, yeah. Maybe start working on something I have, I've like dabbled in screenwriting before a little bit. So I'm thinking about, maybe I'm getting too into that a little bit.1 (1h 1m 57s):I have a question for you when you took playwriting. So this is interesting because it was such a young program, right. Was there any actually teaching of writing at the theater school, Like how to write a play?3 (1h 2m 12s):You know, it's funny about that. It's funny because I mean, like, I, it feels like we would write and we give it the stuff to Dean and we had deadlines and things like that. And he would give us feedback on it. You know, it's the funny thing is, is like the only, I feel like the only piece of practical writing advice that I ever got, and I, this is nothing against Dean. It's just what I remember. So Dean was awesome. I loved him. Well, we had a visiting playwright from Nigeria all over TIMI. I don't know if you remember him being there. He was there for like one quarter and he basically just like, kind of taught me to, to write a bit, you know, he's like, he's like, you have this scene here.3 (1h 2m 57s):And the guy he's at the cafe and he wants his coffee, but the waitress isn't giving him his coffee. He has to keep asking for his coffee over and over again. And it was just like, oh, you mean, I have to create like a little bit of dramatic tension in the scene, what a revelation. Right?2 (1h 3m 16s):Like it just a Mo create3 (1h 3m 17s):A moment. I felt like, you know, he gave me some real practical advice. It was just like, okay, you just have to, you know, these two people are here and you have to kind of, he wants his coffee and she won't give him his coffee and that's where the comedy comes in. And so, yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know how much, you know, they taught me about writing. I feel like I could have used a little bit of more help, like in practical matters, you know, listening to Kate's thing when you guys all went out for your showcase and that kind of thing. Like if somebody had talked to me more about submitting my work, maybe that would have been helpful.3 (1h 3m 58s):I mean, it's so weird though, to think of it at that time. I mean, I was, we were sending out headshots through the mail. We were sending out work through the mail. I mean, you have to go ,1 (1h 4m 14s):You'd have to go to what was called Kinko's then print out your play and then, and then mail it in an envelope to theaters or drop it off in person.3 (1h 4m 24s):And there was like that, like one place where you could get your headshots downtown, like the one like photography place where you could go and get like your headshots in bulk and you'd have to go pick them up. And like the blue2 (1h 4m 35s):Box. I remember the blue box.3 (1h 4m 37s):Yes. I still box exactly. You know,1 (1h 4m 44s):I think, or2 (1h 4m 45s):Yeah, something like that. So. Okay. So then let's talk about the period between graduating and we're where you are now. So you, well, you said you were auditioning,3 (1h 4m 57s):So I graduated. Yeah. And then after that, I, I, you know, I would go in spurts of productivity, you know, where I would audition a lot. You know, I was always looking at performing, you know, once again, trying to, I took a lot of classes in Chicago. I, I took classes at the actor's center. They had a lot of Meisner there. I did Steven, Steven. I have a villages program. He had a studio in like Wicker park. And so he had like a, like a, I think it was like a nine month program or something. So you would, you know, go and you'd be with the same group.3 (1h 5m 40s):And I went through a program there. I took classes downtown at, I forget what it's called now, the audition studio, or, you know, and I remember taking like an on-camera class with Erica Daniels. And who was the other, who was the lady that she always worked with? The casting director. Do you remember she was blonde1 (1h 6m 8s):Phyllis at Steppenwolf?3 (1h 6m 9s):No. It was like a casting director. Her name began with an ass. I want to say it was like Sharon or Sally, or, I dunno, she was like a big casting director at the time. So I took like an on-camera class with them, you know, I, Yeah. I don't know. It's funny cause like you, you, there's these moments where you realize like you're trying to be funny and it just, isn't funny and it just ends up really awkward. And that was one of those moments with them, you know, you're trying to impress somebody and, and she, I was sort of like chubby in high school.3 (1h 6m 57s):And so I think that as with most women who have issues with body issues, like you, you have those body issues forever. It takes a long time to shake them off. And I remember they gave me the scene. It was, the character was played by Sarah rule. Yeah. So, you know, she was a little overweight at the time, you know, and I remember kind of making this off-color joke about how, oh, I guess I see you gave me the, the part of the fat girl or something like that. Like really like probably not appropriate, but I, I meant it to be self-deprecating, but I wasn't really fat at the time.3 (1h 7m 37s):So it was didn't come off as self-deprecating it was another one of those instances where it's just like, and the woman just like hated me after that, you know? And Erica was pretty cool. I think she kind of realized that I was just nervous and awkward. And with the other woman, I remember seeing her like outside after, and she crossed the street to like, not talk to me. And I was like, oh my God, I'm such an asshole. Like, why did I say that? I didn't mean it. You know? And so I'm even blushing now I think thinking about it,1 (1h 8m 10s):You said what probably a lot of people were thinking when they would get that.2 (1h 8m 15s):Honestly, you can rest assured that absolutely every person who was there was just in an internal monologue about their own body issues. I mean, that's, that's the thing that comes up over and over again, when we feel so much shame about something like that, it's like, those people would never remember it. A and if, even if they did, they'd say with the benefit of hindsight, they might say, oh yeah, well, that just brought up for me. You know, my feelings about myself. And3 (1h 8m 44s):I mean, you know, I think, yeah, it just, it, so I took classes all over the city. I auditioned a lot, like I said, I did some independent films and then, you know, like I was still auditioning kind of in spurts over time, I think. And then I discovered yoga. And so I started doing Bikram yoga. It's just the hot yoga. I hear you guys talking about cults and cult leaders a lot on here. He's, he's one of those guys. He's a, he's a cult leader, a guru now downfall on by sexual harassment.3 (1h 9m 26s):But I started doing the yoga and that was like 2007, I think. And, you know, I had a friend who really kind of pushed me to go do the training and I wasn't really sure, but I decided to go do it. And you know, it kind of, I think, I don't know if you guys have ever done yoga, but it is sort of, you know, it kind of, it gave me something that I had been missing in a way. I think, you know, it is that, that mind body connection, I think I had been very detached from my body for many reasons, you know, abuse and all that.3 (1h 10m 7s):Like not physical abuse, but other kinds of abuse. And, and so like, I think that people get detached from their bodies. And so I think I was really connected to it in a way, and I felt good, you know, in a way that I hadn't felt in a long time. And, you know, I think that's the hardest thing. Sometimes when it goes, when you go back to theater, it's like you put so much energy into it and so much time. And I took so many classes and, you know, I enjoyed the classes and, but I just, you know, I really wanted to get on stage and it was just like, I just couldn't get there. And I think like at a certain point, you're just kind of like, what positive am I getting from this thing that I'm giving all this time and energy and love to like, what's the positives that I'm getting out of this.3 (1h 10m 55s):And I'm not, I'm not really seeing it anymore. You know, you know, I, I would get calls from people. We loved your audition. It was lovely. Please come audition for us again. So, you know, there, there were positives, but it just could never, it just really came to fruition. And so then I started doing the yoga and I, I felt really connected to it and I felt really good and in a way that I hadn't felt. And so then I started teaching yoga and I did that for like 10 years while I was having babies and raising them. And then like, yeah.3 (1h 11m 36s):So then 27 16, I started writing again.2 (1h 11m 40s):I did, I did Bikram yoga for like two years and you're just making me re remember that part of what I liked about it. It was kind of like rehearsal. I mean, cause you just go and you do the same, whatever it is, 26 poses. And the set is the same and the smell the same. And it is kind of like, it's very rich of all the nuggets, like really ritualistic.3 (1h 12m 8s):It is very ritualistic and you know, I haven't been practicing here in Morocco. Sometimes I, you know, close all the doors to my kitchen and I turn on t
Intro: Gina ordered her theatre school transcriptsLet Me Run This By You: knowing when to let go, moments of clarityInterview: We talk to Ammar Daraiseh about being an MFA, homesickness, Joe Slowik and Bella Itkin, Joe Mantegna, type casting, being a middle eastern actor, Sweet Smell of Success, film noir. www.ammardaraiseh.com - there is where you can watch Ammar's acting reel and my short films he produced www.karenkanas.com - Ammar's wife's website FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina . We went to theater school1 (12s):Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,2 (16s):We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all1 (21s):Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):Frog into my, my morning frog out of my throat yet. How you doing? I am. Wow. I have a lot to talk to you about, oh, I1 (45s):Half expected you to have red hair this morning.2 (49s):Oh, do you think I should. I okay. But like, did you see the picture? I put a run Lola run. I mean, that might be a little hard to maintain.1 (59s):It's super hard to make, like you'll, you'll have to be the salon and read six weeks at least, or four weeks for root touch-up. But I mean, I personally think the routes coming in would look cool, but wow. Yeah,2 (1m 13s):The whole rally thing. Well, I'll keep you posted cause I, I definitely want to do something different, much different what's going on. Okay. So first thing I'll just get out of the way is for fun, because we're always trying to remember our classes and who taught and what gear we did, everything I ordered my transcript, which unfortunately does not have the names of your professors. Just, yeah, it just has the name of the class and my grades were fair, not great. Like I had a 3.5 or something like that, which I would have, I thought in my memory that I got really good grades in college, but they were really just pretty average.2 (2m 1s):But guess what my lowest grade was in1 (2m 8s):Was it, was it, well, the easy choice is add Colleen,2 (2m 13s):My C my, my one and only see mine was an intro to psychology. I was talking to my husband about it and he goes, yeah, I got a low grade too. He's like, we were just basically saying, this is all too real. We're not ready yet. I think1 (2m 40s):That's a great observation by him.2 (2m 44s):See my whole areas. It's just hilarious. And then in other classes where I was sure, you know, I was hated like an alcohol use class in that I got A's so my God isn't that it's also subjective, like our, our experiences, something as subjective and then our memory about something totally changing. Only subjective as the years go by. Right.1 (3m 7s):It's not just subjective. It's yeah. It's very like mutating subjects, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Oh my God. So you ordered your transcript. Okay. Now you have a transcript2 (3m 21s):And guess what? Anybody can, it's 25 cents. Like if you have, if you haven't ordered, like you have a certain number, you can get in a certain period of time. And so your first one is 25 cents. You,1 (3m 33s):Anybody else want to have a transcript? You2 (3m 36s):Could relive your, your grades. Oh my gosh. Might find some surprises. Do you think you would find some surprises in your1 (3m 42s):I'm? Sure. I mean, I know for a fact that I, that I, I was supposed to drop a class, a, a non, obviously non theater school class, and I never dropped it. So if you don't drop it, you get an F. So I got an F in, like, I want to say it was like sociology or something like that. And I almost didn't graduate because they thought, yeah. And so you can't, I knew it was like, I remember my last year, my senior year, I had to like, do all kinds of regular role. And the other thing is that I didn't do was one year, one quarter or something you had to like re up your financial aid and I didn't do that.1 (4m 24s):So I didn't pay for like a quarter. And they were like, yeah, you're, I'm so shocked. I graduated. I don't know what was happening. They were like, yeah, you have to pay.2 (4m 35s):I had to do some real tap dancing to my parents graduate.1 (4m 39s):Yeah, I remember that, but I don't. Yeah. I I'm sort of scared to look at the grades. I don't.2 (4m 46s):Yeah. I mean, whatever, it's like a grade and acting school is just kind of funny. It should probably be, and maybe at some schools it is pass, fail. It just should be pass, fail. Like you either got it. Or you didn't get it. You either write forth effort or you didn't. Right. So that's kind of, wow. Okay. And update on surprises. Because last week I was saying like, I'm open to surprise. And it worked, which is to say, I think pretty much not that like some big surprise came falling out of the sky, like is what, the thing that I was really after. But instead I did, I took my own advice and like pursued, doing something differently.2 (5m 27s):And on Saturday we ended up, I just on Friday night when Aaron came home, I said, I want to have fun tomorrow, but I've got to get out of this house. I've got to get out of this town. And so he searched up like fun things to do. And he found something which actually was terrible, but it didn't matter because it was different. And we, it was a car. It was, it, it was promoting itself as some like amazing fall festival with all this kind of stuff. And it was literally a carnival, like the Carney trucks. It's amazing.1 (6m 7s):Like, yeah. Right. Oh, well they had some good marketing.2 (6m 11s):Yeah, they sure did. Cause it was listed as the number one thing to do in my state this weekend, the state and the state and the state. But even, maybe it was a slow weekend and we had fun. Anyway, we had fun. We went to a town we've never been to, we spent time together. You know, it, it was fine. It was good. And more importantly, I feel like it, it just doing something like that and genders like, okay, what else can you do? What else? You know? So I think that, that was the important thing is that it opened me up to1 (6m 43s):Novelty. Did anyone else, did anyone get hurt on a ride?2 (6m 48s):No, but the whole time I was like, I bet this is going to be one of those times where one, we're one of these things just going to go flying off into the, so if you really want to call it,1 (6m 58s):If you really want to go down a crazy dark rabbit hole, like, okay, well I'm obsessed with fail videos fails. You know, if you watch carnival fails. Oh my God. And most of them are deadly. Thank God. But they're just like, where thing flies off. Or like, like a lot of times what you have is cell phones going crazy or birds like birds attacking people on rollercoasters is one of my favorite things to watch. It's not that the bird is attacking. It's at the bird is just trying to fucking fly. And it runs smack into a person on rollercoaster, the best thing you've ever seen.1 (7m 38s):But the sad thing is 90% of the time the bird dies, you know? But like, because the velocity, the force is so great, but it's pretty freaking funny. People are filming themselves usually like right then all of a sudden, a huge pigeon like common. So carnival fails is, is one thing where like someone's standing there like videotaping their friend on the tilt, a whirl or whatever the hell it is and a bolt or something goes with. And they're like, oh, that was a part of the ride. So2 (8m 13s):You're standing there as an adult. I mean, as a kid, you're just like, this is the most amazing thing ever. But as you're sitting there as an adult, you just can see like the hinges where things fold up into the, you know, and you're just like, this is just, we're just all hoping that nothing bad happens, right. Best you can do is cross your fingers and hope for the best. Right.1 (8m 33s):And the other thing is that I I'm obsessed with watching is those Slingshot videos. So some people pass out, pass out or like people's weaves fall, fly off and like, or, well, yeah, like people pass out, but I like when things fly off or when just people say really weird stuff or like, yeah. But those2 (8m 55s):Slingshots are horrible. They look horrible ever. I would never, of course, of course, where I'm sure many people have been slung right off into an alligator pit ever at the museum again. Oh, that's crazy. Okay. So the, the big O thing that changed for me since I last talked to you and I'm fighting the urge since yesterday to call you for the podcast, I haven't heard the podcast. Well, I wrote down the headline is I'm going to do this in a politic way organization on the brink of collapse, ALEKS new leadership to ensure its future spends next two years, undermining their, every effort says leadership.2 (9m 40s):We quit. I have quit the organization organization that I have dedicated a lot of hours to serving. And it happened. Yeah. It happened after a meeting last night that went left and it didn't even honestly, as these things, are, it didn't even go as left as it's gone. There's been times where it's gone so much further skew, but all of us just had it. And actually after our interview today, I have, we have an emergency meeting to talk about it, but my decision is made, I quit.2 (10m 25s):I fully quit. Like I'm, I'm happy to help transition or whatever. And yeah, that happened inside. Like how did you come to the, like what happened in, what have you? Yeah. So this is kind of like a combination, just like what I wanted to talk to you about. And then also what I want to run by you because, you know, I just wrote that blog post about like how I meant examining myself in relationships and how I sometimes in the past have just, you know, one day just up and left. And the first time I did that, that felt the way that actually this thing felt last night was when I broke up with my first boyfriend in high school, it was literally like I was asleep.2 (11m 10s):I shot up out of bed, like in a movie. And I said, I've got to break up with this guy. And I got my clothes on and I got in my car and I drove over to his house and I walked into his house. I didn't knock the door. I walked in the house, he was in the bathroom getting ready. I, I had a little box of his shit. I go here by, I walked, he's following help cheetah. What's the matter, what's the matter. And I left. I mean, we, we did speak after that. And actually I had a couple of really crazy incidents with him even like later in life when I ran into him as an adult. But, and you know, that was terrible of me to do that was terrible.2 (11m 51s):But now I understand that it was because I lacked the ability to say along the way I don't like this. And I don't like that. And just kind of kept putting up with it and putting up with it. And I think my big takeaway from how I conducted myself in this organization is that I put up with stuff and put up with stuff that I really should have found more backbone along the way to say, I don't like the way you're talking to me. I don't like the way you're treating me. And in fact, I had the group of people that I work with. It I'm basically the leader of, you know, they were constantly expressing to me that they felt really abused by this group. And I would validate that and listen to them and agree with them.2 (12m 36s):But then when it came time to going back to the group, I fell short of saying, this will not stand. You know what I mean? I never did that. I never put my foot down and said, this that's enough because I was trying to do it in this way that I feel you're kind of supposed to do as a leader of something you're supposed to keep a level head. And it's really, frankly, it's a lot like being a therapist, you take people's projections and you take their shit and you, and you're able to see, okay, this thing is about me. This thing is not about me. This is just you projecting your shit onto me and you try to like, keep it moving for.2 (13m 17s):Good. Great. And it's not that we never responded with, like, this is not a feedback. Yeah. But it, I mean, obviously it didn't work. It didn't get us to where we needed to go. So we ended the meeting yesterday. I stayed on and talked to my cohort. I said, you guys, I'm, I'm done. And there was seven of us and only four of us were, were talking after cause or five of us. So there was two people who had no idea, but, but four of us said, we're ready to, oh.2 (13m 58s):And I spent three hours last night writing a letter that just basically told the whole history and laid it out. Exactly why, you know? And I wrote it as like, we came to this decision. I don't know if we're coming to this decision because we have to have our meeting later and I just laid it all out. And I just said, you know, basically we're at cross purposes here. Like you asked us to do something that we are doing and you don't like the way we're doing it. So it's fundamentally not going to work out. Wow. I was all revved up. I stayed awake until two 30.2 (14m 38s):Sure. Yeah. I've been there got three hours of sleep. Holy shit. Feeling great. 1 (15m 0s):Good for you. I mean, I think the other thing is like, yeah. I mean, I think that when things, something isn't working, yeah. I've always struggled with knowing when to, when to leave something and like when to, I never knew, okay. Like even stupid shit, like staying home, sick from school. So like, my mom always taught us, like, you never do that unless your like hand is falling off and even then you try to go. But so then in my adult life, when I never knew when was the time to listen to yourself?1 (15m 43s):Yeah. Or to call it quits. Yes. Right, right. To listen to myself or like, was that, and I always second guessed myself for a long time. And even like, like I remember having like a date, you know, with, with a friend or she was really like a mentor, like an authority figure. That's always when it gets really kicked up. And I didn't know, like if I was sick or just wasn't feeling off, should I cancel? Would they be mad at me? Would I, could I take care of myself? What did taking care of myself look like? Because sometimes, and people would say like, people would, I would ask for advice and they say, sometimes taking care of yourself means staying home. Sometimes it means pushed through a little bit.1 (16m 25s):I never knew what, how to do that. So I never had a gauge. So it sounds like you're learning finally to like, or like you're coming to the thing of like this, this is not right. This is not working for me. And, and, and I'm going to make a bold move and then I'm going to stick by that bold move. And also knowing that like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a move that right. That you can back up that you feel done and that you don't need to ask for reassurance or like try to, but that you're done.1 (17m 9s):I mean, I think that's really great. I mean, I think it's part of being a self-actualized adult to know when something's over and, and why it's over and how to do it. Right. How to end it right by you for you versus like the right thing that people want you to do. Oh,2 (17m 27s):100% that, and that thing that you're describing about the way that we need to be able to differentiate when I'm just feeling avoidant versus when I really need to, that is such a crucial part of a person's development. And I can say, as a parent, it's pretty hard to teach because you're like, I don't know. Do you really feel sick or really just not want to go to school? Like it's, it's tricky.1 (17m 56s):I, I mean, I can't imagine doing that with someone else because I literally am just now learning at 46, how to do it with myself. So like, like I can't imagine being, because the second guessing it's so interesting. It's like, it's like my, my growing up, it was, yeah, it was literally like, you, you didn't ever, you always muscled through, but I guess the, the, the, and it's like, how do you know that muscling through is too much? What is the answer? Like, you're dead. Like, that's going to be how you found out. Like, I remember this and it wasn't just my parents.1 (18m 38s):Like I remember my aunts, my aunts had a cleaning business. Okay. My mom's sister and her and her wife, or at the time her girlfriend, they had a cleaning business. So they cleaned people's houses. And at the end of, I think it was, I don't know which some play I was in at the rescue. And it must have been, I think it had to be it wasn't yellow boat. So it had to be this other search for delicious. Anyway, I was really sick. And, you know, obviously we, we still do performances when we're sick. That's another thing that needs to change. Right. And they're trying to change people's trenches anyway, I'm sick as a dog and I I'm sick as a dog. And I, I had to schlep my shit from the Myrtle Ruskin.1 (19m 19s):And the next day I was supposed to clean houses with my aunt. Like I was helping her. She gave me like a part-time job, but I'm so sick. And the night before I call, I'm literally like, like I'm hacking up blood. It turned out I had pneumonia and I had to go to the, it, it was, it was crazy. But my aunt was so mad at me that I had to bail. She shamed me. She was like, I can't believe you let me down. I literally can't talk. And she's she? And you know, she was the adult and I was a young adult, but she was anyway, the point is it, wasn't just my parents. It's a whole thing of like, how could you leave us?2 (19m 54s):We're going to have to talk about this with Molly Smith, Metzler, who we're going to be talking to in like maybe next week or the week after who's the creator and showrunner of a major television series. That's based on a book because this theme comes up in that series. And it's, it's something related also to, I don't know. I don't really remember if you told me that your mom's family grew up with money or without money, but1 (20m 21s):Without with, with, and then without, so they, they had it in Columbia and they didn't have it here.2 (20m 27s):Yeah. So people without money, I mean, it's, it's true. The, the decision about muscling through it is really, usually one about survival. Like you don't have the option, but for people who are, you know, in our situation now, I mean, I think the only way you really learn that for yourself, whether you should stay in through or not is with experience of, well this time when I didn't feel like doing something, and then I did it, I felt better this time when I didn't feel like something doing something. And I did it, I felt worse. Like, and just trying to build up the data as to say, this is an example of a time, like just, just the ability to be able to at, at our age, we've had enough experience that we can think through almost any set of, you know, like, okay, well, if I go to this thing, like, I think you were talking about you, miles was at the hospital getting checked out for a possible recurrence of his cancer and you were doing a reading.2 (21m 32s):Oh, oh,1 (21m 33s):It was the worst. It was insane. I was in the chapel at the hospital trying to memorize lines for a fucking 10 minute play reading that was supposed to be on book. And then they told me it was off book. And then2 (21m 46s):You weren't getting paid for that. Wasn't going to advance your career in any way. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. This is, and so the, the thing I really want to run by you is about like moments of clarity and really you can't force a moment of clarity it to me, or maybe you can, I can't, it just comes to you, you know, it just, it just comes to you for me, it comes to me in a moment and it just feels like on ambivalent, there's no question. This is what I have to do. This is what I can't do. This is what I can do. And I think the only way you get there is with time.1 (22m 25s):Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's time and I think you're right. I think it's like trying it out. Like I tried this, it went horribly wrong or I tried this and yeah. And also, yeah, I think right there was this thing too, of like, there's also this thing I feel, and maybe this also goes back to the, the working class. I don't know what it is, but it's like people wanting to end things the quote right. Way. So like my, my mom was always big on like, you know, and my dad about like, having a conversation, like having to sit down with people and say, Hey, this is how I feel.1 (23m 11s):And like, it was a cop-out to like send an email or a cop-out to, but that's also kind of, garbagy like, people am things the way they can end them in the moment. And they, I don't know, I don't hold it against people for ending things the way. Look, it, would it be great if we could have closure and like, stuff like that. But like, what if, I don't know, I'm just like all for now, people doing things the way that they feel like in the moment they need to do them. Like, I don't, like I used to get into, like, I remember like leaving a sponsor relationship and she was so she was not well in my view.1 (23m 53s):And she was, and I've sent her an email and she really wanted to have a sit down. And yes, there's two things are true. Like, I was really scared to sit down with her and tell her, like, I think you're fucked up and this isn't working for me or whatever, but I also didn't feel safe enough to do that.2 (24m 10s):Yeah. Yes. That's. The other thing is if we lived in a world where it was a given that everybody was being forthright and honest and was themselves in constant dialogue about their strengths and weaknesses, and was B you know, if we lived in a world where everybody was operating from a basic level of like honesty and good intentions, then this problem would be much easier to these types of problems would be much easier to resolve because you'd say, well, I mean, it just would be a given, like, of course nobody would want to see me suffering to do.2 (24m 51s):Of course, they'd rather, you know, but you can't, that's not the situation in most cases. So you literally can only rely on your own understanding of yourself. Right.1 (25m 1s):Different context. Right. And I know that there's, there's the there that looking back, I wish I had ended things differently in a lot of different ways, but I did what I, I did what I could, you know, I did really could, but I just remember it being like my, my dad being like, you know, you should really sit down with them and talk to them and being like, you know, why like, okay, I, I hear what you're saying. So when people, yeah. I think, I think being willing to have conversations and having hard will being willing and open and available to having hard conversations with people is so much more difficult than people make it out to be.1 (25m 41s):Because like you're saying, it takes, it has all it takes. It's all these things come into play. It's not just like, I'm going to be a mature adult and do this the right way. It's like, what am I willing to have? What can I handle? You know,2 (25m 55s):W what can I handle? And, you know, in some cases, if an issue is really contentious, it becomes, you know, if I sit down with this person and really try to, they might actually further harm me. Like, I I've already had that experience with some people in this group that where I've decided, okay, the approach is I have to call this person. Right. I have to say, Hey, we're, you know, not seeing eye to eye. And a couple of times when I did that, it turned out fine. Right. And a couple of times when I did that, I thought,1 (26m 26s):Why did I do that? Yeah.2 (26m 28s):Like, not just, that was bad for me, but that was bad for them. And I feel like, I, I feel like I took us several steps backwards just because this person's mentally unwell and I'm able to have like a reasonable back and forth in a conflict.1 (26m 42s):Right. So it's, it's, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than people people think. And also right when you're done, you're done. And when you're done, it's like, how can I extricate myself and not try to cause further harm to other people, but also not trying to cause further harm to myself.2 (27m 3s):Yeah. Yeah. Which is literally, you're the1 (27m 6s):Only person who can do that. Right. That's nobody else's job. Right. Somebody else's job. Holy shit. Well, congratulations.2 (27m 14s):Thank you. So how are you doing1 (27m 16s):Well, this is, I'm pretty good. I'm on, I'm so weird. I don't even know. I don't think I told you this last Wednesday. I had a zoom look. I haven't had any auditions in a long time. Last Wednesday. I had a zoom audition for a film being shot in Chicago. And of course, and now I'm on, I'm on hold for it. I'm on check avail for films in Chicago. And it's a big film. And it's, I'm like, what2 (27m 43s):If it's going to start filming, like on one, the one-year anniversary of the day you guys went there and then had to stay,1 (27m 50s):Well, the thing is, it starts filming Monday, but I oh yeah. For a month. But I, I, my part is super, super small. So I doubt I I'm thinking it's a one or two days shoot. If I book it and you know, the difference of, I mean, I feel like petrified of getting it because I'm, I'm just, I I'm, we're really, you know, that's my first go-to, but I also felt like it was the first time in an audition where I was like, you know, like, how can we talk about this on here? But like, how willing am I to treat myself? Like, shit, I'm not anymore as much. So like, no matter what happens if I, if I, you know, I'm not even sure I want to be an actor.1 (28m 36s):Right. So, so I, I have to get clear about that. I, so if I'm not really sure that this is my life's path, then, then, then the reason that I'm scared is definitely old stuff of being approved of and making a fool of myself and feeling like all is lost if I screw up, like, so that's what I'm working with. It's not so much that this is my dream. And I want so badly to be in this film that I'm so nervous. It is old stuff, which doesn't mean that it makes it easier, but it's just clear. So I'm getting clear. So I was like, all right, if that's the case, then how can I work with that? And I just, I just had, I was like, you know what?1 (29m 17s):I'm not going to pretend that I don't care because I do, but I'm also not going to, I just put my foot down in terms of beating, being, being cruel to myself, I put my foot down. I said, I am not, I am not willing to berate, belittle and hurt myself if I screw this up. Or if I don't get it, or if I do get it, I am not no longer willing. I'm just going to have to set some boundary with myself about my, my, how far am I willing to go with my, with my weirdness craziness and, and self abuse. And I just, so I didn't go there and now I'm on top of avail.1 (29m 59s):I mean, you know, it's like, it, I'm not saying they're totally related, but I'm just saying like, it makes sense to me.2 (30m 5s):Yeah. It makes sense. Because every time you go further and that's been the case like over the last year or the, we talked about this every time you you're like, I don't, I, you let it go. And all of a sudden,1 (30m 17s):Yeah. And like, no matter, I think the, for me, the freedom lies in no matter how badly I do or think I do, no matter how awful rotten, I may screw this up in my head, or even in real life screwed up because it happened, I am not willing to treat myself like a piece of shit. Like that's where I got to, because I thought that is the only thing I have control over really, really the evidence shows that I have control. And even that is questionable sometimes. But if I'm going to have control or ownership over anything, let it be about how I treat myself as I go through this experience or I'll still do it, or else not stop auditioning because this doesn't, this is not.1 (31m 7s):And so I thought, okay, okay, can I, can I, and I, and I, I really was like, I was like, breathe. You know, it's a zoom audition, it's weird breathe. And it was just me in casting. And then I just went right to check avail, but which is great, but two scenes and w and we'll see, but I think it just, it's all fodder for like, can I put, can I stop treating myself terribly well,2 (31m 32s):Well, you know, one thing for certain, you can never go wrong when that's your guiding principle, you can go wrong when your guiding principle is, will they like me? And is it okay at, am I good enough? You know, but you'll never go wrong with when you're trying to set when you're just trying to do something intentionally. I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about is like being extremely intentional, right. Instead of reactive about right. How do I want to wind my way through the situation? What do I want my, this is just a concept that I really am new to, what do I want out of the situation? How do I want to reflect back on how I conducted myself, forget about what I want them to do.2 (32m 13s):Right. Because that's what I've been focused on my whole life, the other person to do.1 (32m 17s):Right. I, I, how can I make, how can I, how can I yeah. Make this easier for them, better for them read their mind, do what they want me to do. And I'm like, oh my God, that, that, that not only forget, it's not, it can't happen because in my make-believe mind that that, that doesn't come into play, but it, it, it feels terrible. And it, and it increases my anxiety and depression because it's so, it's so unattainable. So at least if I, if, like you said, like, if I'm the, if I'm the problem, right. If I'm the problem, that means that I'm also inside of me is also the, when the solution, the success, you know, that, thank God.2 (33m 7s):Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. That's the best news. So I have, I actually was just a couple of days ago thinking about you and your career paths and, and, and like the things that you have described to me, like you, you basically pursued acting because of your relationship with this other person who you wanted to emulate. And then you basically, you know, got the job as the, as the Hollywood assistant when somebody else came. I mean, it was all kind of, you know, not, maybe not that intentional.2 (33m 50s):And I remember having like, kind of a aha thought about it. I should have written it down because it's not occurring to me right now, but it was something about like, maybe it was just that the further she goes in figuring out the basic questions about what she really likes and what she really wants, this is going to be less and less of a thing. Like, you're the thing that you you've said a lot. Like maybe I should work at seven 11. Maybe I should work at this bakery. I don't know. There's something to it that I feel maybe it's that I feel you're really changing for yourself right now.2 (34m 35s):I see you approaching things with a lot more intentionality1 (34m 38s):And you know, what was so crazy is that I think this podcast for us is a way of actually looking at all that stuff. So like, even if the POC, I mean, I hope it goes, goes a global. And, but even if it's just for you and I to look at what the hell am I doing? Who am I, how, how can I make things better for myself? And thus be a better like kinder human probably for everybody else. Then that was all worth it. Because it's like, I could not keep going the way I was going and expect to be happy, or even at peace or even do something fun. Like I had to look at like, wait, wait, wait, what is underneath all this?1 (35m 20s):Like, I should just work at seven 11. And, and I, you know, and we say, this we've said this before, but like, I want to be clear, seven 11 is not the problem. I am the problem. Right? So like you work at seven 11. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, like, for me, what using that is as an excuse and our tool to try to figure out like, okay, where do I belong? That's what it is like, where do I belong? Where do I want to belong? Where can I contribute? But also, like you say, like, what do I want, where do I want to belong?2 (35m 54s):It's actually the, are you my mother phenomenon? You know? But in this case regarding like, where's your place in the world instead of wandering around wondering like who's in charge of you or whatever, it's that it's, which actually they're both the same thing. They're both about belonging. Right. But instead of you making it about, I guess that's what it is just like, instead of you making about another person or another institution or another entity, you're figuring out where you're guiding your own self1 (36m 21s):And myself and like, yeah, that's just it. Where do I belong? And I don't know yet, but I I'm pretty sure it's not at the am PM. Do you know what I mean? I just don't know that that's going to do it for me.2 (36m 35s):No matter how good those hot dogs are, future, how,1 (36m 41s):How good the deal is, two for one veggie chips. You know what I mean? Like,2 (36m 48s):So then when I went to that amp, it was so like, it, no, it was like1 (36m 55s):Vibration whole. They it's like a club. It's like a club on the weekend.2 (37m 1s):That's what I felt like. I felt like I walked into a club with no music and the lights were really bright.1 (37m 8s):It's crazy. It's put the same vibe. Like, you're like, this is a whole scene here. There's a lot of back and forth.2 (37m 19s):Yeah. About that all the time at gas stations, by the way, because the people who work at gas stations, I think tend to be people who are in transition. And I just observed so much, like, I love the idea that at any place I am visiting in a transitory fashion, there's a whole entrenched, you know, rich, layered history and culture. And that I just don't have any idea about because how could I, it's fascinating to think about,1 (37m 54s):Well, that's why you're a good writer too. It's like you get in there and you can like observe and like create w like it's a whole world. That's there2 (38m 3s):To be curious. Fun to be1 (38m 4s):Curious about. Yeah.2 (38m 17s):Today on the podcast we talked to Amar derisory Amar is originally from Jordan, grew up in Michigan, got his BFA and his MFA, and is a fan of Shakespeare, has some great Shakespeare series that you can check out through his website. And we enjoy talking with him about what his lasting impressions are of attending theater school. So please enjoy. So Amar, congratulations. You survived theater3 (38m 54s):School. Thank you. Yes, I did. You2 (38m 57s):Survived it twice cause you got your BFA in Michigan, right? And then your MFA at DePaul. That's correct. So you must've been very committed to being an actor from high school or earlier.3 (39m 9s):Yes, that is correct. I think high school is where I got the bug. Some teacher encouraged me to be in the school play and I'm like, ah, no, no, no, you have a great personality. You can do a kid. You can do it. I'm like, all right. And as soon as I got on that stage, it was like, right there. It was2 (39m 30s):The feeling that you had.3 (39m 32s):It's it's, it's, it's it's excitement. And you get these, you know, these vibes like, oh my God, I'm doing something. This is fun. It's like an addiction. It really is. It's like anything else? I just, I just went crazy. I started eating the scenery because it was like, I'm enjoying, this could be another role. At one point I wanted to play like 5, 6, 7 roles, you know, because I just said, I want to do everything. It was that much excitement. So that's when I decided to really pursue this,2 (40m 4s):I think to do with, I don't know something about the way you just said that made me think you were set. You were keying into people are listening to me here. Was that something3 (40m 15s):People were looking at me, people were watching me. People were doing that. Yes. There to a certain degree. Yes. But you know, not to the point where I want attention, you know, like, look at me, look at me. But I wanted, I wanted to make people happy, laugh, cry, you know, do something. That was the thing. I think, I think what got me was when people reacted to your performance, people that then it's like, oh my God, I did that. I did that. And that is something that is just, you can't, you can't describe that feeling is, is, it's just, it's like a forest.1 (40m 52s):Something that you said that really sparked a memory of you for me was like that your you are, and look, this is not everyone. We're not a one-sided, but you are a people person. Like I remember that about you. Like, there are some people who just like people, I'm a people person too. But, and I, so I recognize that. And other people where I feel like from seeing you around in school and in plays, like you really had the ability to connect with a wide variety of different kinds of people. Do you know where that came from? If that's true, if you,3 (41m 31s):I identify with that. I, I make friends with people on the street, just I'll just say hi to anybody. You know, I that's just my nature, my personality. I believe if you say hi to someone, you, it just makes them feel better. I think, hi, how you doing? Oh, hi. Oh, kind of surprises them that, you know, I don't have any money to leave me alone. I think some people get, get pretty weird about it. When somebody like myself says hi, where it comes from. I can't tell you. I think it's just, I've always been an outgoing person since I was a kid. I remember my parents telling me that, you know, this kid is going to be something he likes to talk to people.3 (42m 16s):Just, I would just talk to people. Hi,2 (42m 20s):Do you have artists in your family?3 (42m 23s):No, I am the only artist. My brother, my brother's a doctor. My sister is a, is a teacher and an administrator at a school in Abu Dhabi and the Emirates. So I am the only performance.2 (42m 39s):It's always so interesting to think about. Like, of course, going back throughout your family's lineage, you're not the only artist you may have been. The only one who had the opportunity. Like this is the case for me, had the opportunity to pursue it. You know? Cause what I found after I decided that I really wanted to pursue this. It's like, oh, but then my aunt can kind of paint and this one can kind of write a little bit. It just feels like it's not something that they pursued for their, you know, for their regular career. But there it's a privilege, I guess that we, you know, got a chance in school and after to pursue it. And you had some great, you were in some great plays, Romeo and Juliet landscape of the body during the3 (43m 21s):That's right. Oh my God. I still have that picture of me and the golden matress that John Bridges, I'm going to send it to you. I got a whole bunch of pictures of sent to you today. So I was rummaging through the old photo albums and I found a whole bunch of DePaul pictures, but yeah. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting play. I landscape with the body. It was just a, a fun, a fun play, a fun.1 (43m 45s):Now did you, you said that you got the bug early on because the teacher sort of encouraged you then how did that grow into? Because I'm always interested in like, okay, so when you're in a play and I'm sure that, you know, you were magnificent and they, but how did it people loved you and you loved it, but how did that transform into like, I'm going to go to a conservatory because that place was, you know, DePaul, the conservatories are crazy. So how does,3 (44m 13s):Okay, this is a good story. I'm glad you asked this. No, I was, I was doing a play in Flint, Michigan and the lead actress, her and I were backstage and we were just chit chatting before our next it was, I think it was during intermission, but anyway, it doesn't matter. She actually, she goes, well, are you going to go to grad school? Are you going to continue your journey? And I said, I'm not sure. I thought I'd just stick around. Maybe do some theater around here. She goes, no, no, no, you should really go. There's this place called DePaul university. It's a great school. You should go and check it out. I said, really? I said, where's that Chicago? Okay. Well, you know, sure. I go to my, my professors that my undergrad school and they paid for the application fee.3 (44m 56s):I mailed it in. And I think within, I think within a few weeks I got my appointment to audition for the school. And it was in January, in the dead of winter, in Michigan, Nine feet of snow as we're driving to Chicago, I'm my friend and I, but yeah,2 (45m 20s):You applied. It was the only place you applied for grad school.3 (45m 24s):I applied at Purdue university as well. I got accepted at both, both places. The, and it was Purdue or Chicago, DePaul. But I think with Purdue, you're in the middle of nowhere. It's God's country out there. There's just the school. And that's it. Where you had the theater school in Chicago and a vibrant city. It was very infectious and scary at the same time. But that's when I met the infamous John Bridges. I thought I blew it to be totally honest with you. I thought I blew it. I did a, I did a classical and I did a contemporary, obviously Joe Slovak, John Bridges.3 (46m 4s):And I believe Betsy Hamilton where my, my auditioners, if you will. And I thought I did okay with the classical, the contemporary was kind of thing. I got an, I, you know, green to the business, didn't know how to actually present a monologue or, you know, my teachers back and undergraduate say, look, just put them together. Just stop and blah, blah, blah, or just, you know, they, you know, they told me what, what I had to do, but I just remember saying goodbye and thank you for the time. And Joe slow. It was, you know, okay, you got a good job, good job. You know, you have a great journey back home. And I said, okay. And my friend goes, how did it go?3 (46m 46s):And I'm like, ah, forget it. I'm going to Purdue. I'm going to Purdue. And then, and then shoot, I auditioned on a Saturday in January. I get the letter on a Tuesday. And I remember my friend goes, Hey, you got this letter from DePaul. Why don't you open it? I said, oh, it's BS. They're just telling me they're not going to accept me. Look, I'm going to open it. I was about to rip it. And I said, oh, but it just opened it. And I'm like, oh yeah, let me read it to you. You know, I'm going to decline. You have been formally accepted.2 (47m 20s):Oh my God, that's amazing. That's a side note. Do you guys know that in today's day and age, when kids get their acceptance, it's email obviously. And then a lot of schools or maybe even most schools when they open the email, if they got accepted, it's a confetti graphic. So like they know as soon as they open it, if there's confetti, that is so it's so wild, right? Like the things that they could never imagine having to wait in a letter to come in the mail,3 (47m 52s):But2 (47m 52s):You did BFA. So why, why are you saying you kind of were green? You knew about,3 (48m 0s):I mean, I knew about acting it's I, I didn't know the, the, what we call the business affairs of acting the mechanics of acting, I guess I think, you know, we all experienced this. I'm sure guilty is charged. You know, when you're young or you're an actor, you really don't pay attention to a lot of things. You just want to, you know, you want to act, you want to do a performance. You want to do the best you can, of course. But then you also want to party afterwards and do all the things that young people do. And I, and I think I was talking to one of my fellow actors the other day and he asked me if you were to go back to grad school, what would you change? Or what would you, what would have helped you? And I said, have a class that teaches the business of acting and okay, these actors are going into Hollywood.3 (48m 47s):They're going to New York. They're going, whatever, teach them the basics of what the business of acting is. They got to know what a contract looks like. They got to know what business affairs mean. They got to know all this terminology. They got to know all that stuff. If I had known that that would have been a great tool for me coming to LA, coming to LA, I was green as green as a Shamrock, you know, just green. And I had to learn the hard way1 (49m 10s):And we'll get back to the LA part, but I'm not so curious about, okay, so you get into DePaul and then when, and usually being zest this, but I'll ask this, like when you get there, how did it match up to what you were thinking? Were you like, what the hell is going on? Why am I rolling on the floor to music or what?3 (49m 29s):I had no idea what was going on. And that I think scared, you know, on a side note, Chicago scared me. I was homesick for quite a bit of time before school started, I got to, I moved to Chicago, I think three weeks before school started. So there was three weeks where I did not know anybody did not know. I didn't know. Oh, I was in bad shape. And thank God for friends and family. Of course, you know, they call and man, you sound depressed, which is that dude. I'm by myself in Chicago. I don't know anybody. I don't know the city. It's a big city. It's like Flint times 20.3 (50m 9s):It's huge. But, but I think I, to answer your question about the school when the first day of school, wow. What up Betsy Hamilton's class. I'm like buoyancy. And I'm like, what the hell is she doing this buoyancy famously I ever done? And then it clicked it. Then I'm like, okay, I know what she's doing. All right. Okay. Joel, slow acting class. Woo. You can't do that. Okay. You got to do it this way. Okay. This little guy is running around this class and he inspired me.3 (50m 55s):I'm like, this is beautiful. This man in his seventies is running around like his, a guy in his twenties. He loves acting grub. Kowski all that stuff. And he was amazing, but4 (51m 8s):We didn't have him. So he's he was real. Hands-on3 (51m 11s):Like hands-on he was, I mean, I, I won the lottery with Joe slower. N not, not to say anything negative about Jim ocelot or anything like that, but he was just, he was on hands. And he really gave you when he gave you a note, he gave you a note. Okay. You know, he's like Amar, okay. Your legs. I don't know why your feet are doing that on the chair. It's like, it's not, it's not, that's an ism of yours. We gotta, you gotta, yeah. That's kinda like your feet, your feet, your body, your, your, your body is your instrument. And, you know, got to learn all this stuff.3 (51m 52s):And it's just woo. Graduate school. This is graduate school. So, yeah, that was a, a couple of experiences. I'm trying to think.1 (52m 2s):Did you feel like you fit in? Did you, did you, what was your, what was your vibe like there?3 (52m 10s):Unfortunately, my violet started to change in year two. That's when I started to feel, not that things weren't clicking for me or anything like that, but it just seemed like favorites started to appear. Oh, okay. You know, it's like, it happens. It's not something that, you know, it's done intentionally. It just happens. But if I, if you guys remember Eric Hayes, Eric, Michael Hayes,4 (52m 43s):Isabel. I haven't3 (52m 44s):Thought he was in Trojan women. I think he1 (52m 50s):Was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. So3 (52m 52s):He became a seminar. Yeah. Him and I don't know him and I beat we're we're unofficially the outcasts of the graduate class more or less. We weren't, we were not that, not that we were mistreated or anything. I'm not saying that we were mistreated by it just, it just seemed like we were known as the two actors that really didn't take things seriously. And I think that's a fallacy because I think I was taking it very seriously. I was just bored at times. I wanted to act, I didn't want to sit in a classroom all day and just sit. I wanted perform. I think, I think I understand the classroom format where you sit down, you watch your colleagues do their scenes, but I was getting fidgety, fidgeting, bored, bored.3 (53m 39s):And to the point where you dread going to school, it was like, oh, I've got to go to acting class and sit there for two and a half hours. And watch people act, you know, which I get. And again, that didn't sound right coming out. But I mean, it's just, I loved, I loved all my classmates. I loved all my classmates. I think from Derek smart to Eric Hayes, the niece Odom, Heather Ireland to name a few, you know, they, they were fantastic. Pat. Tiedemann Kendra. I mean, and one of my, let me aside. No, one of my favorite, favorite times on DePaul was with you. Gina.3 (54m 19s):Do you remember you? And I started a film. I, I did.2 (54m 23s):Oh, say what3 (54m 27s):You guys remember bill Burnett. The voice in nucleus. Okay. So for our, for my final exam, I wanted to film a short film about quitting smoking. And2 (54m 38s):Coming back to me, wait a minute,3 (54m 40s):You were asking me, I had to, I rented a camera from the video department on the campus and I walked into the lobby of the theater school and you were there and it's like, I need to shoot a scene. It's like, oh, let me be in it. And I said, okay, we'll just improv. We'll just talk about quitting. So we set the camera and you and I sat in the lobby and we filmed it and we did it. I think I still have it. I'll find it for you in 1994.2 (55m 7s):I have to tell you something, because I know you haven't been able to listen to the podcast because our website had a broken link. Okay. But what, what I should tell you is that boss and I have huge memory gaps about our time. There are many things we do not remember.3 (55m 28s):What2 (55m 29s):What's kind of weird is I sort of remembered this film that you really are hearing about it. Yeah. I mean, I believe you, I believe both of you. Okay. How exciting, you know, why I would really love that is because just last week I was saying to boss, wouldn't you like the opera? Because nothing was recorded. Really? Not even our showcase or if it was, it's not something I ever saw. No. Wouldn't you like to go back and just watch yourself? Because now we've spent basically a year and a half fully immersed. We have talked to 55 people about what their theater school experiences.2 (56m 9s):So we, we are getting back on board with what it was and we're slipping, you know, different people fill in like little bit of blanks. But now I like, now I'm just so curious about, you know, what, what, what was the experience of what was I like at that time? And a lot of people don't remember us, so we haven't really gotten this feedback from3 (56m 29s):Yeah. I mean, I remember boss. I remember all you guys. I do remember a lot of, and there's a lot of people I don't remember. I mean, I think when I was on your website the other day, you know, trying to figure out what you're like and it, which is congratulations to the both of you. I think it's awesome. I saw Tate Smith. I saw a picture of Pete Smith and I completely Like that. It was stuff like that. You know, you running into people that wow, amazing. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I interrupted you.1 (56m 59s):No, no, no. I was just going to ask, like, what was your, okay, so, so year two, you started getting itchy and like, but how did you feel? We talk a lot about like casting. How did you feel about your casting in shows? Which most people do? Like, there's been like one person that we've talked to. That was like, I loved my casting, but everyone else is like, I fucking hate it.3 (57m 23s):Nope. I haven't hated it. I hated it. And again, like I said, it happens. I think, I think a lot of the directors, the professors who are directing and all that stuff were just picking their favorites. They're not, if we're going to be in a learning environment, then you, you should take a risk with me, with somebody else with, with Heather. I think nobody was taking any risks. And everyone's like, Hey, I gotta put on a show and it's gotta be the best show I possibly can. And I'm going to use the best actors or that, you know, my opinion, the best actors. And it's like, you know, you know, if you're, you're not preparing us for the real world, you know, if you're going to do this, you know, this blind casting, whatever I thought I thought, Hey, it's a learning. I'm sure. I'm sure one of them, I'm sure Jim Ossoff will cast me.3 (58m 3s):Never did Joe slow cast me, you know, and his journey of the fifth horse. It was a great experience for me. That's when you learn, I didn't want to be the lead role. I want to learn. I want to learn, teach me, teach me what it like to perform on a stage that would typically be a stage from new in New York or a main stage in Chicago. That's where we got to learn. Right? Yeah.2 (58m 29s):That's another thing that we've really uncovered here and it, by the way, it makes perfect sense. I'm really not maligning anybody, but that the professors, you know they, they were also trying to express their own artistic desires through the projects that they were casting. And I'm sure nine times out of 10, they got carried away with their own ego about what they wanted to like, actually, we just heard this story from the episode that's airing today with Stephen Davis.3 (58m 58s):Oh, wow. Yeah.2 (59m 1s):That's a great episode. You listened to it. He re he begged the theater school to do Shakespeare. He begged them to do Romeo and Juliet, which they did. Yep. He, he really wanted to be Romeo. He didn't get cast. And he was told if I had cast you, I would had to gone with my fourth choice for Juliet of the height, because Karen mold is very tall. That's a perfect example of something that should be okay in theater school. I understand you don't want to do it when you're charging $400 a ticket on Broadway.1 (59m 38s):We're in a film where the camera's going to be jacked up, but like, but just cast. And sometimes, and sometimes I would think that, and maybe they do it now. Like sometimes you would say, why not? No. Cause it's obvious when someone wants a rule, right? So whoever wants this rule so badly, for whatever reason, they've never been cast and whatever, give them the role, let them do the role. Like maybe it's, maybe it's not, it's a long shot, but that's what school's about is long shots and learning. Right? It's like, let, let the person do this. You know, they're dying to play Romeo. Just let them play Romeo.1 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah.3 (1h 0m 19s):Yeah. Okay. And excuse me, the, if, if, if you don't mind, you know, now that you guys have you, of course, but I'm just saying the play was set in the middle east.2 (1h 0m 31s):Right. Very3 (1h 0m 32s):Last time I checked I'm Jordanian.2 (1h 0m 35s):Right?3 (1h 0m 36s):The play Romeo Lord Capulet he was Jewish. I'm sorry. He was the Jewish character, but yeah, I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. And I agree with Steven on this one, because it just seemed like, it seemed like we are in a learning environment and let's learn. And if you're going to, if you're going to just cast people because whatever, then, then what's the point of going to the, to the fricking school and spending, spending $16,000 a year. I don't know what it is today, but1 (1h 1m 10s):It's like 48 or some craziness3 (1h 1m 13s):For paying student loans for three years, three years of, you know, every now and then some BS. Okay. Other than that, you know, the two best teachers that I had over there, arguably as Dr. Bella and Joe slower. And I think because they come from, you know, such interesting backgrounds, you know, Joe slug being Polish, you know, Bella, it can be in a Russian Jewish woman. Oh, I got a lot of stories while her, oh my God.1 (1h 1m 43s):She did she help you? Do you feel like she helped you as a teacher?3 (1h 1m 47s):Oh, she was. She, she, she, I am in her debt, you know, when it comes to acting and stuff like that. I think, I think she finally, I think she was the one that I finally, I realized what it's like to feel the, you know, like with the apple and, you know, I didn't know. It's like the Pandora box thing that she was talking about. And then it just like a light bulb over my head. It's like, oh my God, the feel what it's like to be in winter, you know, even though you're on the stage and it's hot, you gotta like, as if it's 40 below zero, she really, that, that, that, that technique, that acting technique was just incredible.3 (1h 2m 28s):I am forever in her dad and she is awesome. She's an automation rest in peace. And I, a couple of great stories about her is one that when she would like to meet her students before class, so we will walk into her office and talk and I'm sitting there in the office, she's looking at the hair. She goes, okay. Oh yeah, that doesn't sound English. And I said, oh, well, it's, it's Jordanian. I'm from the police. It's Jordanian. She goes, oh, well, you know, I'm Jewish. And I remember talking to my dad, I said, dad, I, I have to talk to this Jewish professor.3 (1h 3m 9s):You just say we're cousins. Okay. Because we are just say that don't rock the boat. Okay. So when she said they're doing, you know, I'm Jewish. And I said, well, well, yeah, I do. I do. But you know, being Jordanian and you being Jewish, you know, we're, we're practically cousins. So, you know, it's great, right. Without a drop of a dime, she goes, well, we might be cousins over, not exactly kissing cousins.2 (1h 3m 38s):Oh, that's hilarious. By the way, in case you don't know, I might have mentioned this on the podcast. Once before there exists on the internet, a Hastick interview with Joseph Loic and Bella it kin, okay. Was it conducted by studs, Terkel? It might've been, or some radio project. And the two of them talking about their approaches to acting and to teaching acting is really, really good. Yeah. You got to check it out. Right. So she really helped me. W we didn't, neither one of us had either one of those teachers, unfortunately, but we love,3 (1h 4m 13s):She, she was great. And I would give her ride home, poor thing. You know, she, you know, her husband, Frank was very ill at the time and she was like, oh, muck. And you're giving me a ride home. And I'm like, yes. Yes. Ma'am. And I was like, oh, you'll cause kind of a mess there. What'd you just get in the car.2 (1h 4m 34s):We know you had a car. That's K that's it wasn't that useful for people in school? Did you, and you messed up, I guess all the MFA's probably lived in apartments or was there any dorm living for MFS?3 (1h 4m 45s):No, no, no. Don't limit for MFA. So we had to live in apartments and my first apartment was a studio. And then I think the second year I moved in with, with Eric, from school and then we had a former student. I don't know if you remember John Soldani by any chance familiar. He was first year grad. And then I think he was cut from the program after the first year, but he came back to Chicago. So we were roomies. And then I met my girlfriend who was also a student at DePaul, Alicia hall. Right. So we, we were together. So we moved in together, I think, mid third year, something like that.3 (1h 5m 29s):I'm not sure, but yeah. And then I stayed in Chicago after graduation. I just decided to stay in Chicago and did get quite a bit of theater in Chicago and then decided to do the LA thing. And,1 (1h 5m 41s):Okay. So, so I just have a question about what was your experience like of the warning system and the cutting system where you weren't?3 (1h 5m 49s):Oh, good question. Good question. Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's, I think it took the attention away from the program because I think all the students were more concerned about the warning, getting warned and getting caught than anything, and that affected their performance in class and it affected their performance on stage my opinion. I remember some friends of mine who were just scared and I admit I was very, very nervous, but when I didn't get warned, then all of a sudden I was able to concentrate on school. I was like classes where the people that were warned, all they can think about what I can do to not get kicked out of the class.3 (1h 6m 31s):And then next thing you know, it just, it just really, really was detrimental to their performance in my opinion.2 (1h 6m 38s):But it took the focus3 (1h 6m 40s):Away. Oh yeah. Never worn. I was the only, I was the only male that wasn't warrant. All the male actors were warned except for me. And we ended up having eight graduate students, three men and five women, which I mean Derek smart, Eric Hayes and myself, and then the five women, Denise home, Heather Ireland, pat Tiedemann Kendra. I forgot her last name. Thank you. And Alicia, Alicia, Alicia was in the other class. Lisa was in the other, but I remembered you guys remember a teacher named Susan Lee.2 (1h 7m 24s):Her name has come up at times on this podcast. Yes,3 (1h 7m 30s):She was my advisor. She was the one that told me whether I was warned or not, or kicked out or not. And she said the most procurator thing. And I'm not sure if it was from the professors, but she said, well, you're not cut. You're not warned. We just don't know what to do with you. I just looked at her. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, you're, you're, you know, I don't remember the conversation.1 (1h 7m 55s):Did she say that she raised, she say something about being a, from the middle east or3 (1h 8m 3s):Yeah, something like that. And I said, well, why don't you, why don't you and your professors just ask me and find out what you can do. Right? I mean, just I'm middle Eastern doesn't mean, I don't know how to act girl. You there.1 (1h 8m 23s):Wait a minute. So wait a minute.3 (1h 8m 25s):There's more than one professor that kind of, oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I'm not going to mention any names, but2 (1h 8m 32s):There was quite a few.1 (1h 8m 35s):Yeah. Right? To say that, that, that being from the middle east, my guesses, people were assholes about it. Like right. Like racist, racist, assholes.3 (1h 8m 50s):I mean, and that's what was going to be NASA, regardless of what race you are. So, you know, you're going to be an asshole. You're going to be an asshole. If you are a mean person, you are a mean person. It has nothing to do with your gender, your culture, where you come from, you're you, if you're a mean person, you're a mean person having said that there was quite a few people that said some things to me while I was in school, which was very offensive. But what do you want me to do? Fight every person. That's some kind of, you know, I was called many things. I was called camel jockey. I was called by students. Oh, somebody students. Yeah. Mostly by students. You know, I was called no, no, no. It's okay.3 (1h 9m 31s):Hey, that's you know, you, you grow from it. There was, there was one person that called me a word. I don't think I can say it on this podcast, but it's a, it's like, whoa.2 (1h 9m 42s):Well, well, we've heard so much about from every alum of color that we've talked to, is this thing that you're describing of maybe they even got selected for the program with the idea, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who looks like this in our program, but then it became, we can,1 (1h 10m 2s):We don't have any money.2 (1h 10m 3s):We can only find a role for that person. If it's clearly identified in the text that that person is that ethnicity. Meanwhile, all the white actors could be up for any role. Right. That, that was sort of the default. Like if you're white, then you can play anything. But if you're not white, then you, then you have to play a role that's written for whatever your ethnicity is.3 (1h 10m 27s):I agree with that. And yeah. And I think, I think Christina dare kind of broke the window on that with Romeo and Juliet, by casting Leonard Roberts as Romeo, you know, an African-American man. And he was great in the role. He was great. Absolutely. You know, she passed me as, you know, as a Jewish man, you know, even though I'm there, I like that. I I'm playing against type. This is, these are the rules that I would like to be challenged with. And unfortunately I wasn't challenged with over there. And I think the school to your saying, Gina, I think the school was just kinda like, eh, let's just bring this middle Eastern guy. See what happens. Let's get this African-American person. Let's see what happens. Let's get this Indian person. Let's see what happens. And nothing happened, nothing happened.3 (1h 11m 8s):And, and by the third year, by the third year, I was just, I was done. I was done. After, after Shakespeare, Susan Lee, I was done. I was done. She, she was a hard teacher. She was a hard teacher to deal with both academically. And you know, personally it's just, just was hard. It was hard to deal with her. I'm not, I know Bobby, some students have some harsher words for her, but again, I was going back to what I said earlier, Eric and I were pretty much marked by her that we were not serious about Shakespeare.3 (1h 11m 48s):And I was very serious about it. I just wanted, I remember students coming up to me, they tried to avoid being partners with us. And then I had one partner telling me, Hey, you better not fool around or do this. You know, you gotta be serious. I said, what the hell is wrong with you? And then when they find out the real me, and then it's like, wow, that's totally different than what I'm hearing about you. And I'm like,2 (1h 12m 11s):Yeah, this is serious. Is my lasting impression of you. I would never have said that you were anything but very serious.3 (1h 12m 21s):I appreciate that. I really do. I appreciate that. I
From 2007, S-Pill performed in many festivals, club residencies in and through variety of mixes, S-Pill constantly showed us his own definition of correlations between Deep, Minimal, House and Techno, that is still moving forward from the past. TRACKLIST: @zemog0 - Rapé (Ambient Interpretation) [@differentexhibition] @Pessimist - Mist [@osirismusic-uk] Out Of Place Artefacts (@vril_01 & @rodhad) - Geomantic [WSNWG] Regis - Blood Witness (Restructured) [@downwards] @nigm-lau - Night Moans [@circularlimited] @EinKa - After Clouds [@goldmin-music] @danieli_whs - I1 [@lowless-music] @albert_van_abbe - iX One [@indigoaera] @aleksiperala - NL-L56-19-08697 [@clone-nl Basement Series] @candyflipa - Duna, Pt. 01 [@utchrecords] @eduardodelacalle - Tudo [@elektrotribe] @linnelisabet - Ternary & Beyond [@planetrhythmrec] FLAWS - Observent [@floatrecords] @v-a-y-u - Calyce [@affin] @Einox - Géricault (@Kontinum Remix) [@Oslated] Metro Skim - From 3D Into 5th [@6dimensions] @advancedtransistor - Termistor [@konsequentrecords] @tesstberlin - Neverending Hole [@msdmnr] Peder Mannerfelt (@the-subliminal-kid) - Our Levels [Needs] @gianlucameloni-laertes - The Immortal (@psyk Remix) [@lykosrecords] Matteo Cortese (@vllx) - Rrrrrhh II (Vertical Spectrum Remix) [Collapse] @Mod21 - We will finally drown in cold water [@onthe5thday] Positive Centre - Ancestor One (@sleeparchiveofficial Remix 2) [@in-silent-series] @pwccaofficial - Elected [Inducted waves] @kontrol273 - Terminal 1 (@linearsystem Remix) [@holliday-addicts] @inigokennedy - Dust-point [@tsunamirecs] @unclear000 - Shadow (@nertia-1 Remix) [@anaohrecords] Follow S-Pill here: www.soundcloud.com/sjp0 www.instagram.com/s_pill_ www.facebook.com/djspill OUTER DIMENSION www.soundcloud.com/outerdimension www.instagram.com/outerdimension www.facebook.com/OUTERDIMENSION www.formaviva.com/outer-dimension Premiere Requests, Infos & Promos outerdimension.au@gmail.com
See Red Fred and Doug Thonus break down 2 of the top 10 NDA draft prospects: Draft Prospect Analysis Avdija is an Israeli-Serbian professional basketball player who last played for Maccabi Tel Aviv of the I1:30 Born: January 3, 2001 (age 19 years), Beit Zera, Israel Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 220 lbs (1:30) Onyeka Okongwu is a Nigerian-American basketball player. He played college basketball for the USC Trojans. Listed at 6 feet 9 inches and 245 pounds, he plays the power forward position. Okongwu was a four-year starter at Chino Hills High School in California, playing alongside Lonzo and LaMelo Ball. (12:30) Born: December 11, 2000 (age 19 years), Los Angeles, CA Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 245 lbs (12:30) Billy...The post The Big Red Bus 32 – Deni A & Okanye Okongwu Breakdown appeared first on Chicago Bullseye.
See Red Fred and Doug Thonus break down 2 of the top 10 NDA draft prospects: Draft Prospect Analysis Avdija is an Israeli-Serbian professional basketball player who last played for Maccabi Tel Aviv of the I1:30 Born: January 3, 2001 (age 19 years), Beit Zera, Israel Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 220 lbs (1:30) Onyeka Okongwu is a Nigerian-American basketball player. He played college basketball for the USC Trojans. Listed at 6 feet 9 inches and 245 pounds, he plays the power forward position. Okongwu was a four-year starter at Chino Hills High School in California, playing alongside Lonzo and LaMelo Ball. (12:30) Born: December 11, 2000 (age 19 years), Los Angeles, CA Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 245 lbs (12:30) Billy...The post The Big Red Bus 32 – Deni A & Okanye Okongwu Breakdown appeared first on Chicago Bullseye.
See Red Fred and Doug Thonus break down 2 of the top 10 NDA draft prospects: Draft Prospect Analysis Avdija is an Israeli-Serbian professional basketball player who last played for Maccabi Tel Aviv of the I1:30 Born: January 3, 2001 (age 19 years), Beit Zera, Israel Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 220 lbs (1:30) Onyeka Okongwu is a Nigerian-American basketball player. He played college basketball for the USC Trojans. Listed at 6 feet 9 inches and 245 pounds, he plays the power forward position. Okongwu was a four-year starter at Chino Hills High School in California, playing alongside Lonzo and LaMelo Ball. (12:30) Born: December 11, 2000 (age 19 years), Los Angeles, CA Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 245 lbs (12:30) Billy... The post The Big Red Bus 32 – Deni A & Okanye Okongwu Breakdown appeared first on Chicago Bullseye.
See Red Fred and Doug Thonus break down 2 of the top 10 NDA draft prospects: Draft Prospect Analysis Avdija is an Israeli-Serbian professional basketball player who last played for Maccabi Tel Aviv of the I1:30 Born: January 3, 2001 (age 19 years), Beit Zera, Israel Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 220 lbs (1:30) Onyeka Okongwu is a Nigerian-American basketball player. He played college basketball for the USC Trojans. Listed at 6 feet 9 inches and 245 pounds, he plays the power forward position. Okongwu was a four-year starter at Chino Hills High School in California, playing alongside Lonzo and LaMelo Ball. (12:30) Born: December 11, 2000 (age 19 years), Los Angeles, CA Height: 6′ 9″ Weight: 245 lbs (12:30) Billy... The post The Big Red Bus 32 – Deni A & Okanye Okongwu Breakdown appeared first on Chicago Bullseye.
Hey! This one was supposed to go up yesterday, and we appreciate your patience. It's also a little shorter than usual, which we'll explain, I promise. Al plays D2, Joe plays P5, Knight to C3, I1, you suck my Battleship.
I start recounting Father's Day and a local gem that converted me into a sushi fanand get ready to talk about a couple racial indicents. (0:00-5:12) I throw out some cliches and embrace others to set up how people tell you they are racist from their actions NOT their words(5:15-I1:00) I share that "microaggression" is how I typically have experience racism even in my "woke" town( 11:01-21:50) I discuss how being an Uncle Tom is dangerous and less to do about racial stereotypes and more about undermining the societal problem of racism. I express disdain for Candace Ownes, why she sucks, and beware of white people sharing her message(21:54-28:12) Terrible Trump Transmission- Confederate "monuments" and why I loathe his press secretary (28:16- 31:09) I talk about my FIRST year of podcasting- vision, progress, reception including SOME close family&friends lack of acknowledgment(31:53- 39:25) Takes of all Temperatures(T.O.A.Ts)- Confidence with camera phone videos; 2 kids; Wizard of Oz Trump; Bubba Wallace; Race Classification Laziness(39:29-53:37) --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app
Because of the growing need for medical professionals to help address the ongoing health crisis caused by the new coronavirus (COVID-19) pandemic, The US Citizenship and Immigration Services Department of State is inviting medical professionals with I1-29, I1-40, or an approved certificate of eligibility to help mitigate and address the effects of the pandemic in the US. In this episode of Top Talent and Immigration, Kaushik Ranchod talks about the process for the USCIS call for medical professionals and how physicians already in the US on a J1 program can extend their stay because of this directive. Stay tuned.
In this episode I speak with Carmela (Mellie) Paladino. If you are still tapering and wonder how you would feel the first day you are done with a long, difficult withdrawal, this episode will help you to finish your fight to get to the other side. NJ Bill A3495 https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2020/Bills/A3500/3495_I1.PDF Carmela"s email: melapala@optonline.net
Here's the thing: I'm a fan of SI3! In my opinion, the market needs to continue growing! And the sooner everyone knows about it, the sooner the jewelers will have no choice but to catch up! Ben believes that if you see an SI3, run in the opposite direction! Overview of the Diamond Clarity Scale. Clarity Scale: F & IF | VVS1 & VVS2 | VS1 & VS2 | SI1 & SI2 & (SI3) | I1 & I2 & I3 - (GIA) Certified until VVS2 | Consumers should expect a certificate from GIA (or another appraisal company) to back it up - VS1 and VS2 can be appraised by a Gemologist or expert without a certificate - SI1 and SI2 – Bulk of diamonds here and lower | Still eye clean - I1, I2 and I3 – Inclusions are visible to the eye What is an SI2 Diamond? The Gradations within SI2 What is an I1 Diamond? The Gradations within I1 What is an SI3 Diamond? The Gradations within SI3 Pros of SI3 There is a zone between SI2 and I1 that is unfairly being labeled as I1. It’s eye-clean and so it belongs in the SI location. We need a zone between SI2 and I1. The chasm between both gradings is too large... Who is exactly falling for anything? No one is trying to call it as SI2. People should research and realize that SI3 means eye clean - but with larger inclusions. EGL is a reputable Appraising Company. It’s not a 3rd tier type of company It’s the early days of a good idea. Give it time. EGL have started something. Don’t bash it. GIA will catch up soon… Cons of SI3 Room for scammers. They can start passing I1’s as SI3’s Not accepted by GIA (or most of the world) Never Ending Situation (can of worms) when adding more and more sub-divisions into the Clarity Scale It will cause a big of loss of money to people who got diamonds certified as SI2 but are now only considered SI3 Final Thoughts To learn more about SI3 Diamonds click this link: https://www.estatediamondjewelry.com/si3-clarity/
Thomas discusses more gun control efforts that are coming up in the New Jersey State General Assembly. Music credits to Lee Greenwood - Proud to Be an American. https://anchor.fm/igeners/support https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2018/Bills/A1500/1016_I1.HTM https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2018/Bills/A4000/3696_I1.HTM https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2018/Bills/A9999/5452_I1.HTM https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.anjrpc.org/resource/resmgr/docs/assembly_no_5453.pdf https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2018/Bills/A9999/5454_I1.HTM https://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2018/Bills/A9999/5455_I1.HTM --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/thethomassalandrashow/support
Sitting by a fire watching the damp, gray clouds pass overhead had Crystal Daze and Reverend Pagan in the mood for some weird folk. Tune in as they scour the vale and traipse through the vales of their mind, and take winding path through the realms of acid folk.I1. Diamond Day- Vashti Bunyan2. All Things Quite Silent- Steeleye Span3. I Don’t Know Where I Stand- Fairport Convention4. Nothing More- Fotheringay5. You Know What You Could Be- The Incredible String Band6. Light Flight- PentangleII7. Deep Inside - Fantuzzi 8. Hiawatha - Simon Finn9. Song to Comus – Comus10. Ladyfingers - Daughters of AlbionIII11. Blend - Sandy Bull IV 12. Kulen Natt - Golden Ivy13. Fire by the river – Harumi14. Dio Mio No - Lucio Battisti V 15. Hate Street Dialogue- Rodriguez16. Drop Out!- Pearls Before Swine17. The Witch- Mark Fry18. Mannannan I- Loudest Whisper19. Mannannan II- Loudest Whisper20. Sign on My Mind- Dr. Strangely Strange Outro-Echo in the Guru- Ghost
Pretend Record Club Flexi Disc Issue #1, Bonus Episode
Pretend Record Club Flexi Disc Issue #1, Episode 4 of 4
Pretend Record Club Flexi Disc Issue #1, Episode 3 of 4
Pretend Record Club Flexi Disc Issue #1, Episode 2 of 4
Pretend Record Club Flexi Disc Issue #1, Episode 1 of 4
In May 1920, wealthy womanizer Joseph Elwell was found shot to death alone in his locked house in upper Manhattan. The police identified hundreds of people who might have wanted Elwell dead, but they couldn't quite pin the crime on any of them. In this week’s episode of the Futility Closet podcast we'll review the sensational murder that the Chicago Tribune called "one of the toughest mysteries of all times." We'll also learn a new use for scuba gear and puzzle over a sympathetic vandal. Intro: The Dodgers, Yankees, and Giants played a three-way baseball game in 1944. Avon, Colorado, has a bridge called Bob. Sources for our feature on Joseph Elwell: Jonathan Goodman, The Slaying of Joseph Bowne Elwell, 1987. Joseph Bowne Elwell, Bridge, Its Principles and Rules of Play, 1903 "J.B. Elwell, Whist Expert and Race Horse Owner, Slain," New York Times, June 12, 1920, 1. "Seek Young Woman in Elwell Mystery," New York Times, June 13, 1920, 14. "Scour City Garages for Elwell Clue," New York Times, June 14, 1920, 1. "'Woman in Black' at the Ritz Enters Elwell Mystery," New York Times, June 16, 1920, 1. "Two Men and Women Hunted in New Trail for Slayer of Elwell," New York Tribune, June 16, 1920, 1. "Housekeeper Admits Shielding Woman by Hiding Garments in Elwell Home," New York Times, June 17, 1920, 1. "Mrs. Elwell Bares Divorce Project," New York Times, June 17, 1920, 1. "Swann Baffled at Every Turn in Elwell Mystery," New York Times, June 19, 1920, 1. "'Mystery Girl in Elwell Case Is Found," Washington Times, June 19, 1920, 1. "Elwell, Discarding Palm Beach Woman, Revealed Threats," New York Times, June 20, 1920, 1. "Elwell, the Man of Many Masks," New York Times, June 20, 1920, 12. "Elwell Traced to Home at 2:30 on Day of Murder," New York Times, June 21, 1920, 1. "'Unwritten Law' Avenger Sought in Elwell Case," New York Times, June 22, 1920, 1. "Think Assassin Hid for Hours in Elwell Home," New York Times, June 23, 1920, 1. "Admits Breakfasting With Von Schlegell," New York Times, June 23, 1920, 3. "Officials Baffled by Contradictions Over Elwell Calls," New York Times, June 24, 1920, 1. "Housekeeper Gives New Elwell Facts," New York Times, June 25, 1920, 1. "Pendleton, Amazed Awaiting Inquiry in Elwell Case," New York Times, June 28, 1920, 1. "'Bootlegger' Clue in Elwell Case Bared by Check," New York Times, June 29, 1920, 1. "Elwell Rum Ring Bared by Shevlin," New York Times, July 2, 1920, 14. "Viola Kraus Again on Elwell Grill," New York Times, July 3, 1920, 14. "The People and Their Daily Troubles," Los Angeles Times, July 6, 1920: II2. "Says Witness Lied in Elwell Inquiry," New York Times, July 7, 1920, 11. "Whisky Is Seized in Elwell Mystery," New York Times, July 10, 1920, 10. "New Elwell Clue Found by Police," New York Times, July 11, 1920, 16. "'Beatrice,' New Witness Sought in Elwell Case," New York Tribune, July 11, 1920, 6. "Says He Murdered Elwell," New York Times, July 14, 1920, 17. "Quiz Figueroa Again in Elwell Mystery," New York Times, July 17, 1920, 14. "Chauffeur Quizzed in Elwell Mystery," New York Times, July 20, 1920, 8. "Elwell Evidence Put Up to Whitman," New York Times, April 2, 1921, 11. "Confesses Murder of Elwell and Says Woman Paid for It," New York Times, April 7, 1921, 1. "Admits Elwell Murder," Los Angeles Times, April 7, 1921, I1. "Confessed Elwell Slayer Identifies Woman Employer," New York Times, April 8, 1921, 1. "Confessed Slayer of Elwell Is Sane, Alienist Declares," New York Times, April 9, 1921, 1. "Harris Admits His Elwell Murder Tale Was All a Lie," New York Times, April 11, 1921, 1. "Elwell and Keenan Slayers Are Known," Fort Wayne [Ind.] Sentinel, Oct. 17, 1923, 1. "Elwell's Slayer Known to Police," New York Times, Oct. 21, 1923, E4. "Fifth Anniversary of the Elwell Murder Finds It Listed as the Perfect Mystery," New York Times, June 12, 1925, 21. "Elwell Cut Off," New York Times, April 12, 1927, 19. "Murder of Elwell Recalled in Suicide," New York Times, Oct. 15, 1927, 21. "Joseph Elwell Murder in 1920 Still Mystery," Chicago Tribune, Feb. 21, 1955. David J. Krajicek, "Who Would Want to Kill Joe Elwell?" New York Daily News, Feb. 13, 2011. Douglas J. Lanska, "Optograms and Criminology: Science, News Reporting, and Fanciful Novels," in Anne Stiles et al., Literature, Neurology, and Neuroscience: Historical and Literary Connections, 2013. Kirk Curnutt, "The Gatsby Murder Case," in Alfred Bendixen and Olivia Carr Edenfield, eds., The Centrality of Crime Fiction in American Literary Culture, 2017. Listener mail: Paul Rubin, "Burning Man: An Attorney Says He Escaped His Blazing Home Using Scuba Gear; Now He's Charged with Arson," Phoenix New Times, Aug. 27, 2009. Michael Walsh, "Autopsy Shows Michael Marin, Arizona Man Who Was Former Wall Street Trader, Killed Self With Cyanide After Hearing Guilty Verdict," New York Daily News, July 27, 2012. "Michael Marin Update: Canister Labeled 'Cyanide' Found in Arsonist's Vehicle, Investigators Say," CBS News/Associated Press, July 12, 2012. Ed Lavandera, "Ex-Banker's Courtroom Death an Apparent Suicide," CNN, July 11, 2012. At the guilty verduct, Marin put his hands to his mouth, apparently swallowed something, and collapsed in court: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWO_O4ScAsg Alex Papadimoulis, "Suzanne the 1000th Malone," The Daily WTF, Jan. 15, 2008. Oxford Dictionaries, "What Are the Plurals of 'Octopus', 'Hippopotamus', 'Syllabus'?" "Octopus," "Ask the Editor," Merriam-Webster. This week's lateral thinking puzzle was contributed by listener Oliver Bayley. Here are some corroborating links (warning -- these spoil the puzzle). Please visit Littleton Coin Company to sell your coins and currency, or call them toll free 1-877-857-7850. You can listen using the player above, download this episode directly, or subscribe on iTunes or Google Play Music or via the RSS feed at http://feedpress.me/futilitycloset. Please consider becoming a patron of Futility Closet -- on our Patreon page you can pledge any amount per episode, and we've set up some rewards to help thank you for your support. You can also make a one-time donation on the Support Us page of the Futility Closet website. Many thanks to Doug Ross for the music in this episode. If you have any questions or comments you can reach us at podcast@futilitycloset.com. Thanks for listening!
After speculating about good dining in San Francisco and briefly insulting their listeners there, Kurt and Steve discuss a recent article about whether great leaders are born or made. They then launch into a discussion about the qualities of good leaders. People who know where they are going are able captivate, are passionate and are charismatic. You can tell when you meet them and when they enter a room. People are drawn to them because deep down people want to be passionate about something and when they see that passion in your eyes, you become more charismatic. They sense that you can help them and improve their lives. This does not guarantee everyone will like you, but they will respect you for your conviction and your passion. Passion is very contagious. When you transfer this passion, the people around you start to radiate that passion. They perform better, if it is at work, it is no longer work. They become more proactive, more willing to work as a team and become more optimistic. When you have tapped into this passion you become more determined and it increases your persistence. It starts to become a burning desire and consumes you and it radiates to others. A word of caution, just because you are passionate does not mean you can forego learning the skills you need to be successful. It is a critical piece of the charisma pie, but you still need more pieces of the pie to radiate powerful long-term charisma. More than anything else, passion recruits the hearts and minds of your audience. Charismatics radiate heartfelt passion. When the audience can sense your passion and sincere conviction for your cause, they will emotionally jump on board. We all love people who are excited and filled with believable passion for their subject. Passion is critical to influencing others and transmitting charisma. When you have passion for something, you want to let everyone know about it. You want to convert as many people to your cause as possible, and when someone disagrees with you, you are not swayed by their opinions or advice.
In this episode, we talk about our experiences and preferences with monitors, including color calibration, specific makes and models, and other things to keep in mind when considering a high-end color-accurate display.
Medizinische Fakultät - Digitale Hochschulschriften der LMU - Teil 10/19
BBK32, a fibronectin (Fn)-binding protein of Borrelia (B.) burgdorferi sensu lato (s.l.) which is encoded by the bbk32 gene located on the 36kb linear plasmid (lp36) of isolate B31, is playing an important role in serological diagnosis of Lyme borreliosis. Firstly, we were interested in the genomic localization of bbk32 regarding different B. burgdorferi s.l. species as well as between strains of the same species. Southern blot analyses based on 23 strains of the species B. burgdorferi sensu stricto (s.s.), B. afzelii, B. garinii and B. spielmanii revealed that position of bbk32 is rather variable between the species but also within a given species. bbk32 could be located on different linear plasmids (lp), mainly on lp23kb, lp24kb, lp25kb, lp31kb and lp36kb. The meaning of this finding remains unclear so far. Secondly, a mumber of thirteen chimeric polypeptides representing different parts of the N-terminal regions of BBK32 proteins of both B. burgdorferi s.s. isolate B31 and B. garinii isolate PHei were generated. Fn-binding capabilities of those generated polypeptides were evaluated either by Western-ligand blot-based binding assay or by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA)-based binding assay. Results showed that BBK32 from PHei possesses a higher Fn-binding capability than that from B31. Furthermore, the higher Fn-binding capacity is associated with four amino acids (Lysine131, Lysine145, Threonine147 and Isoleucine155) in the 32-amino acid-long segment (from position 131 to 162). Moreover, both gelatin and collagen could partially inhibit the binding of BBK32 to Fn. This suggests that BBK32 might also bind to the collagen-binding domain of Fn (repeat I6-9 and II1, 2) and partially to its N-terminal fibrin-binding domain (repeat I1-5). Though the meaning of the different Fn-binding capacities remains unclear so far, such studies may provide us with markers to define the different pathogenic potentials of various Borrelia species and strains. Thirdly, eight recombinantly prepared BBK32 homologues (either as partial or as whole) were tested in a line assay to evaluate their contribution for serologic diagnosis of Lyme borreliosis. Though BBK32 homologues could react with sera from Lyme borreliosis patients, compared with other Borrelia-antigens established in the Max von Pettenkofer Institute, these BBK32 homologues could not improve the sensitivity and specificity of the class-specific IgG or IgM antibody tests. Nevertheless, this study underlines the fact that the heterogeneity of Lyme disease Borrelia species must be taken into consideration in the microbiological diagnosis of Lyme borreliosis in European patients.
Tierärztliche Fakultät - Digitale Hochschulschriften der LMU - Teil 02/07
The study presented here is a survey of the current literature about age determination by examing teeth in horses since the publication of PESSINA (1810). The introductory chapter serves to give an overview of the anatomic structure and development of equine teeth. It is followed by a histographic literature summary of dental aging in horses from Greek antiquity to the present. The short introduction about the origin and the appearance of the criteria used for the determination of dental age according to the deciduous and permanent teeth, as well as the age related changes of canine, premolar and molar teeth, will be followed by an overall summary of dental age determination in horses. The majority of the named studies deals with the examination of Warmblood horses, however data from textbooks which do not specify the breed of the horses examined are also included. Following this analysis, the breed-related studies about English Thoroughbred horse, Arab, Trotter, Belgian draft, Ponies, Przewalski horse and donkeys are listed. According to these studies, the most useful and reliable signs to determine dental age in horses are the eruption of the deciduous and permanent incisors. PESSINAS (1810) comments about the change of incisors, according to which the age between 2 – 3 years for I1, 3 – 4 years for I2 and 4 – 5 years for I3, is correct except for some races. The change can be up to half a year late in the Mini-Shetland ponies and between a quarter and half a year in donkeys. In both these races the deciduous teeth also appear later. After the eruption of permanent incisors age determination by dental changes gets increasingly inaccurate. Literature confirms a constant correlation for the dental signs disappearance of cups, dental star, disappearance of marks, changes of shape of occluseal surfaces, direction of upper and lower incisor and changes of the occluseal arrow. Judging these characteristics can, because of high variability, only provide an approximate guess rather than an exact evaluation of the age. On the one hand there are inconsistent time frames given for these criteria, on the other hand there are often discrepancies where revisions are performed. There can be multiple factors responsible for the deviations that affect dental abrasion, the cause and the effect of which are still unknown to a large extend. Numerous studies were able to reveal racial differences but as other factors are often neglected in those studies it is difficult to associate factors and races. A clear connection between breed and the grade of dental shedding could be shown for Arab horses whose adamantine and secondary dentine consists of a harder grade. Therefore the dental wear is slower as in the Trotters and Belgium drafts which have been used for this comparison. The Galvayne´s groove and the hock in the upper corner incisor should have completely lost their meaning for the estimation of age in horses and shell only be mentioned for completeness. A reliable connection between age and appearance of both signs could not be confirmed in the surveyed literature. In conclusion, dental age determination in horses should be considered a method with considerable weaknesses. These shortcomings are inaccuracy and a high margin of error. The fact that it remains the only practible method which can aid in the age determination of an animal and that the obtained information is sufficient in most cases to be used in therapy and prognosis in a patient supports its further use. Considering all the previously mentioned factors it should be mentioned that the determination of the horses’ age is an estimation based on dental markers.
composed of the a- and ß-chains of the MHC class I1 I-E molecule fused to antibody V regions derived from anti-human CD4 mAb MT310. Expression vectors were constructed containing the functional, rearranged gene segments coding for the V region domains of the antibody H and L chains in place of the first domains of the complete structural genes of the I-E a- and ß-chains, respectively. Celltsr ansfected with both hybrid genes expressed a stable protein product on the cell surface. The chimeric molecule exhibited the idiotype of the antibody MT310 as shown by binding to the anti-idiotypic mAb 20-46. A protein of the anticipated molecular mass was immunoprecipitated witha nti-mouse IgG antiserum. Furthermore, human soluble CD4 did bind to thetr ansfected cell line, demonstrating that the chimeric protein possessed the binding capacity of the original mAb. Thus, the hybrid molecule retained: 1) the properties of a MHC class I1 protein with regardt o correct chain assembly and transport to the cell surface: as well as 2) the Ag binding capacity of the antibody genes used. Thgee neration of hybrid MHC class I1 molecules with highly specific, non-MHC-restricted bindingc apacities will be useful for studying MHC class 11-mediated effector functions such as selection of the T cell repertoire in thymus of transgenic mice.
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