Podcasts about SO2

Marianne Ghorayeb - Co-fondatrice Artisants Nomades & du salon SO2 by RadioVino

Jordi Renard - Vigneron/Organisateur du salon SO2 by RadioVino

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This episode is dedicated to some of our favorite winemaking tools. Listeners will learn about managing sulfur consistency, dissolved oxygen, and free SO2 levels to maintain wine quality. The episode highlights essential winemaking tools, such as the densitometer and optical sorter, which enhance grape sorting and fermentation processes. Additionally, we discuss the FirmRite fermentation bungs as a modern solution to traditional bubblers. The episode also covers winemaking tools like precision temperature controllers and advanced filtration systems, offering winemakers of all levels valuable knowledge to elevate their craft. Winemaking Class Offers and Show Notes for all episodes at https://www.insidewinemaking.com/ Resources from this Episode Anton Paar Densitometer DMA 35: https://www.anton-paar.com/us-en/products/details/dma-35/ WECO Optical Sorters: https://www.wecotek.com/equipment/wine-grape-sorting/ Fermrite Bungs: https://barrelbuilders.com/bungs/ This episode is sponsored by Harvest Pillar concrete trellis posts. Want to learn more about Harvest Pillar concrete trellis posts and how they can help you save money in the long run? Visit them here: https://www.harvestpillar.com/ Follow and Review: We'd love for you to follow us if you haven't yet. Click that purple '+' in the top right corner of your Apple Podcasts app. We'd love it even more if you could drop a review or 5-star rating over on Apple Podcasts. Simply select “Ratings and Reviews” and “Write a Review” then a quick line with your favorite part of the episode. It only takes a second and it helps spread the word about the podcast. Episode Credits If you like this podcast and are thinking of creating your own, consider talking to my producer, Emerald City Productions. They helped me grow and produce the podcast you are listening to right now. Find out more at https://emeraldcitypro.com. Let them know we sent you.

What causes the “red wine headache”? Is it sulfites? A histamine reaction? Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus of Enology in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis and Apramita Devi, Postdoctoral Scholar in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis have identified a flavanol that can interfere with the metabolism of alcohol. That flavanol is quercetin, a natural product made in grape skins in response to sunlight. It is a natural sunscreen produced to protect the fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines, how skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels, and why sulfites may play a role in “red wine headache”. Resources:         74: The Spirit of Wine Andrew Waterhouse Andrew Waterhouse | Google Scholar Andrew Waterhouse | LinkedIn Apramita Devi | LinkedIn Apramita Devi |Google Scholar Inhibition of ALDH2 by quercetin glucuronide suggests a new hypothesis to explain red wine headaches Why Do Some People Get Headaches From Drinking Red Wine?  Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: What causes. The red wine headache? Is it sulfites or a histamine reaction? [00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. I've been your team. Since 1994, we've brought you the latest science-based practices, experts growers and wine industry tools through both infield and online education. So that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass. With us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:37] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, critical resource. Manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified. Vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with two university of California Davis researchers. Andrew Waterhouse. Professor emeritus of enology and the department. of, viticulture and enology. And. Oprah meta Debbie. Post-doctoral scholar and the department of viticulture and enology. [00:01:04] They have identified a flavonol that can interfere. With the metabolism of alcohol. And that flavonol is called quercetin. A natural product made in the grape skins in response. To sunlight. It's a natural sunscreen produced to protect. The fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers. Why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines. How. Skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels. And why sulfites may still play a role in that red wine headache. [00:01:36] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry. But don't know where to start become a vineyard team member. Get access. to the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry. The tools. Through both infield and online education so that you. You can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business to join the community today. [00:01:57] Now let's listen. in. [00:02:01] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus in Enology in the Department of Viticulture Davis, and also Aparmita Devi. She is a postdoctoral scholar, also in the Department of Viticulture & Enology Davis. Thank you both for being here. [00:02:17] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, we're glad to be here. [00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Today we're going to talk about a really interesting topic. It's the role of quercetin , in wine headaches. The two of you recently co authored a paper on this one particular mechanism that might cause some people to get a headache after drinking even a small amount of red wine. But before we get into that, I want to ask you, how did you get interested in this topic? [00:02:37] Andrew Waterhouse: Well I've been talking to Steve Mathiasson. He's a Napa winemaker for actually quite a while, some years back. He suffers from headaches when he drinks certain wines. And we were chatting about possible mechanisms, and we even did a study many years ago with another postdoc in my lab to investigate a question we had or a theory we had, and that didn't pan out. But more recently we were chatting again, and I got interested in the topic again, and that's what got me interested, you know, just somebody knowledgeable who was suffering from headaches and. for listening. It was, it makes it more real and it's like, well, maybe we can figure something out. So that's what got us started. [00:03:17] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , how same for you. [00:03:19] Apramita Devi: Yeah. Same. Like I've been in touch with Andy and we have been talking about this project many years. So I was always interested because I come from biological science and metabolism and stuff I got interested after talking to Andy. [00:03:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's start with some basics. What is quercetin? [00:03:38] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, basically, it's a natural product made by grapes, but it's a very specific one. It's in the class of polyphenolic compounds, and it's in the class of flavonoids called flavonols. And what makes it interesting, I think, is that it is made By grapes, in the skin of the grape, and only in the skin of the grape, in response to sunlight. It's sometimes referred to as sunscreen for grapes. And it specifically absorbs UV light that would cause damage to, say, DNA and other macromolecules. So it's very clear that the grapes are producing this in order to protect themselves from ultraviolet light. [00:04:22] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:04:22] Andrew Waterhouse: So the amount that's present in wine is highly dependent on the amount of sunlight the grapes experience. Not the vine, but the grapes themselves, And a friend of mine, Steve Price, was the first to note this. In a study way back in the 90s on Pinot Noir, he noted that there was more quercetin in sun exposed Pinot Noir grapes. And that observation has been confirmed many times now in different studies. where sun exposure is correlated with quercetin levels. [00:04:58] Craig Macmillan: and this is true just for red grapes as opposed to white grapes. [00:05:02] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, no, no, there's more in white grapes. But when you make white wine, you throw away the skins. So there's no opportunity to get those materials into the wine. Now, an exception might be orange wine. But I don't know of any data on orange wine. [00:05:21] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , maybe you can talk about the metabolism part, the biology part. So when people consume alcohol, it's metabolized down certain pathways. Quercetin is also metabolized by the body into other forms? [00:05:33] Apramita Devi: Yeah, so the pathway for alcohol and quercetin are a bit different, but the location is liver, where it goes. So when people consume alcohol, it goes to the liver and then there are two enzymes which work on the alcohol. So the first enzyme is alcohol dehydrogenase, which convert it into alcohol into acetaldehyde. The acetaldehyde is the like the toxic metabolite in the body and it can have many side effects. That's why body has to get rid of it out of the liver system. So it has a second enzyme which is called the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. So that convert acetaldehyde dehydrogenase into a non toxic component, which is acetate or acetic system. [00:06:24] So it comes out of the body. What happens when you consume quercetin along in the body, the quercetin also goes to the liver. Because quercetin adds too much quercetin as such is not good for the body and it has low bioavailability. So liver tag it in the form of quercetin glucuronide and then the body knows that it has to be flushed out of the system. So the interesting part is that when you consume alcohol and quercetin together, You are taking the both the metabolite acetaldehyde and quercetin gluconide in the same location inside the liver. And it gives the quercetin gluconide to interact with the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme. And that acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme now cannot work efficiently. to convert the acetaldehyde into the acetate. So basically you are building up acetaldehyde in the body and it's not coming out of the system and you are seeing all those negative effects of the acetaldehyde in the form of flushing or headache or not. The other systems like what's like sweating. so we think that there is a correlation between these two pathways, which might be associated in red wine system. [00:07:47] Craig Macmillan: And how did you design your study? [00:07:51] Apramita Devi: The first when I talked to Andy, like he told me that he thinks that this system is because of inflammatory pathways and inflammation system. So he was kind of like, there is something in red wine, which is Triggering this kind of pathways or there is some system so, but we were not sure what exactly are those inflammatory system. [00:08:16] So we went back and saw some literature and we kind of find that there are some studies which told that quercitans inhibit the dehydrogenase enzymes and that what triggered us that okay alcohol is metabolized by these dehydrogenase enzymes. And wine also has these phenolics. So what kind of phenolics, other kinds of phenolics, or what types of phenolics can do this inhibition? [00:08:45] The method was basically in, was based on having different phenolics, which are present in red wines more compared to white wines, select them. And then just, we find this enzyme kits in the market to do this dehydrogenase. Inhibition tests like you put the test compound and it tells whether the enzyme is the inhibited or not. [00:09:09] So we just did that in a test tube system, like we added our phenolics with the enzyme, and we saw that which kind of phenolics are inhibiting this enzyme and screening them out. out of all. So while doing that, we screened different types of quercetin, like quercetin glucoside, quercetin galactosides, and other forms. [00:09:32] Then we also tested other phenolics. I can for all my rest in and other stuff. And we also choose quercetin gluconide because that is the metabolite which is circulating in the body. And then we kind of screen them based on the in the enzyme system and we see how much inhibition is happening there. [00:09:54] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. So what we did was a very basic test to experiment. We didn't test anything on people. [00:10:01] We basically tested to see which of these compounds could inhibit that enzyme because we knew that if that an enzyme could be inhibited the acetaldehyde would accumulate and you'd end up with people in that condition would end up with Flushing, headaches, as Aparmita said, all kinds of other symptoms. [00:10:20] Craig Macmillan: And this would vary by person. Different people may have a proclivity to produce more of certain enzymes than others. Is that true? [00:10:29] Andrew Waterhouse: We don't really have any information about that. That's going to take a lot of more work to test you know, the, the details here. For instance. Some people get red wine headaches and some don't, but we don't know whether, for instance, perhaps their enzymes are more inhibited by quercetin glucuronide, or maybe they're just more sensitive to acetaldehyde. [00:10:52] So that's going to take, you know, human studies where we measure a bunch of things. And try to figure out, try to sort through the, the details of how this impacts people individually. [00:11:04] Craig Macmillan: What would a study , with people, investigating this, what would the design be like? How would somebody go about doing that? [00:11:12] Andrew Waterhouse: Okay. So a human study. Could have a couple different possible designs. The one we'll probably use is we'll simply find two wines, two red wines, one that's low in quercetin and one that's high. And then those will be administered to people who get red wine headaches. We'll give it to them blind, they'll have to agree of course to participate in the study. [00:11:37] And then we'll see if their experience of headaches is related to the quantity of quercetin. Now, there's some other designs we could imagine using, which might be a little more straightforward, but we're not sure how relevant they would be or whether we could get approval to do this. So, for instance, one approach would be to find a red wine that's low in quercetin and then simply add it. [00:12:00] Now adding it is tricky for a number of technical reasons. Quercetin itself is very insoluble, so we would have to add what's called a glycoside of quercetin. So we'd have to get our hands on something that would dissolve, et cetera, et cetera. We're not sure we could get approval for that because we're adding a chemical to wine. [00:12:21] Now, the chemical would probably be classified as a supplement, and so it might be approvable, as it were. And then another very simple experiment, which we thought about a while ago, you can buy quercetin as a supplement in the market. It's readily available. [00:12:38] So, one possibility is to simply give our subjects a glass of vodka and give them pills that either contain quercetin or a placebo and see if there's a relationship between administration of quercetin and headaches. [00:12:54] Now the, the quercetin itself, as I mentioned, is very insoluble. So we may have to get these more bioavailable forms of quercetin for that experiment. [00:13:04] Craig Macmillan: That leads to a wine making question. So, if it's relatively insoluble is quercetin extracted from skins more in the alcohol phase at the end of fermentation? [00:13:11] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. It's, it's, it's extracted fairly quickly because it's in the skin, in the grapes, it's in the form of what are called glycosides. So these, Has the quercetin molecule with the sugar attached. That makes all those forms very soluble. [00:13:27] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:13:29] Andrew Waterhouse: There's actually an occasional problem with certain red wines, most commonly Sangiovese, where after bottling the wine has had a large quantity of quercetin glucosides. And after bottling, they break down, the glycosides break down, releasing just a simple a glycone, quercetin, and you get this disgusting looking gooey brown precipitate in the bottle. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: ha [00:13:57] Andrew Waterhouse: Every few years I know the folks at ETS in Napa get somebody showing up with a bottle of Sangiovese that's got this. Disgusting sludge in it, and they can tell them without analyzing that. Yes, another case, of course, it's in precipitate in the bottom. [00:14:15] Craig Macmillan: Huh, that's interesting. I believe it was mentioned in the paper that , obviously different growing conditions are going to lead to different levels of quercetin and grapes based on how much sun exposure they have, etc. And that also different winemaking techniques would have an impact. [00:14:29] If consumers are looking for products if they know they have a headache issue Is it possible they could experiment with different product types? Products that were made with different production methods if they can find that out that might Impact their sensitivity or might impact how often it happens [00:14:46] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah, it's a pity that. Consumers wouldn't have information on the level of quercetin. We would very much like to do a study along those lines, but we haven't been able to find any funding for that, just in case somebody wants to support that kind of work, we're happy to work with them. but anyway you know, it hasn't really been an issue for winemakers, so there isn't a lot of data out there. [00:15:08] There are a few studies that published amounts of quercetin, you know, in wines from different places, but the data is very, very limited and not really useful in providing consumers guidance. The one thing we can say is because, as I mentioned earlier, sun exposure is very important, in general if you look at a particular type of wine, a varietal, say Cabernet or Pinot Noir, that the grapes that are grown on very large vines, will have less sun exposure. [00:15:39] Essentially if you have a very highly productive vineyard making targeting an inexpensive line, you probably have much more shading of the fruit as a consequence of lower quercetin levels. Compared to a very high end vineyard, usually, the amount of sunlight is very tightly controlled, and one of the reasons for that is that there's very good data showing that wines that are high in quercetin have a better mouthfeel, better texture in the mouth. And it's not clear whether quercetin is directly responsible or whether it's a marker for something else that's produced under those conditions that leads to that. many years ago, we did a study looking at phenolics in Cabernet, and we observed that the very high end Cabernets that we tested were much higher in quercetin than the sort of average price type product. [00:16:35] And I think that that was true then. It's probably true now that, you know, a very good cabernet is, is made with very tight control of sun exposure. And there is a fair amount, of course, it can't be a complete sun exposure, or they probably get raisins by the end of the harvest, by the time you get to harvest, but there's a very deliberate management of sun exposure in high end wines. And it's for a reason to, get to higher quality product. [00:17:04] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly! And, We know that the managed sun exposure, quercetin is a part of it but also it's connected to just total phenolics in general. Lots and lots of different compounds that are, you know, semi related. And I actually wanted to go back Aprametia you identified the quercetin glucuronide as being The highest in the ones that you tested, were there other things in that test and that assay that all were also stood out, maybe not as high as that, but really kind of stuck out as being different than the rest. [00:17:39] Apramita Devi: Actually, the quercetin gluconide was a standalone as a very high, like it's like 78%. The other things were around in that 30 percent range, so I'm not sure how significant was the impact of that, but there were quercetin glycosides forms, which were like around 30 percent inhibition of the enzyme, but [00:18:03] all others were very low. [00:18:04] Craig Macmillan: yeah, so it really stood out basically as it was head and shoulders above it. I would like to put this work into context a little bit. I, I work with the public quite a bit as part of my job and I have for years. And this topic comes up. All the time. This information definitely helps me my goal, when I talk to a consumer that has an issue with, wine headache or whatever it's not that I'm trying to sell them a product as much as it is. [00:18:29] They want to enjoy wine. They tell me this, they say, Oh, I love to have it. I just can't. Da da da. And then they'll say, it's like sulfites. And then I'll kind of explore that with them a little bit. Like, so can you eat dried fruit? Do you eat canned fruit? Do you have reactions to this or to that? Are you asthmatic? [00:18:48] Kind of sort that out and go, okay, I don't think maybe that's it. Maybe it's not. The other ones that I just learned about about 10 years ago was a biogenic amines, which made a lot of sense to me in terms of things like histamine reactions. What is your feeling about sulfites is contributing biogenic amines. [00:19:04] Maybe there's other things we haven't hit on, on this topic. What are your feelings about the, kind of the big picture of what potential for a diagnosing assist? [00:19:15] Andrew Waterhouse: Why don't you talk about amines [00:19:16] Craig Macmillan: Yes, please, [00:19:18] Apramita Devi: Biogenic amines like mostly the histamine and tyramine are the main ones people talk about whenever they come with this headache stuff. So I think because it's formed in the wine during the fermentation process, and there are these spec microbes which can convert the amino acids into this, biogenic amines the histamines are part of inflammatory reactions. People know that in biology and immunology. So it's very easy to be people connected that it might be a reason why people get headache. But what I always focus is like, there are far more other food products, for example, fermented meat products, which has far more higher amount of these biogenic amines. do people get headache if they have something similar with alcohol eating together with alcohol or something like that? But there is no mechanism told till now, they just tell that, oh, since it's histamine and it's related to this inflammatory reactions, it might be the cause. But there is no solid proof that it is the cause. [00:20:27] so I don't know whether it's there or it might be a pathway or not. [00:20:33] Craig Macmillan: One of the things that I find fascinating is how we evolve our, Hypotheses about things over time, and somebody has an hypothesis and they test it out, maybe they find something, maybe they don't, but then that kicks off this whole set of what I call naive science making up stories about why. [00:20:53] It's kind of a just so story. It's like, well, obviously then somebody comes along and checks it and says, Hey, wait a second. And we're no, or if this was true, then that would have to be true. And that's not true. You know, and that kind of thing and how we keep coming around to new ideas, which is what you folks have done, which I think is really, really cool. [00:21:10] Andrew Waterhouse: I was going to answer your question about sulfites. It's a really big question actually. Partly because sulfites have so much visibility and there's so much concern about it. I think sulfites themselves Have been studied pretty carefully there's one study where if they gave subjects a very high level of sulfites in wine, it was like very small, but statistically significant increase in headaches. [00:21:39] Or some adverse reaction, but other studies have shown no correlation. By the way, sulfites are antioxidants in case you hadn't heard that. So it seems very unlikely that sulfites by themselves are some sort of bad actor in this regard. Like you, I get these questions all the time. And what I heard so many times was. Oh, it's cheap wine. It gives me a headache. [00:22:06] Craig Macmillan: Yes. [00:22:07] Andrew Waterhouse: And have you heard [00:22:08] Craig Macmillan: I've heard that many times. And then on the opposite side of things, I've heard stuff like, Oh, I get headaches from American wine, but I don't get it from French wine. Or I always get headaches from European wines, but I never from California wine. So I'm trying to figure out, is there something going on? [00:22:26] Like, can you be allergic to burgundy? You know what I'm saying? Cause I mean, it could be, it could be something about burgundy. It's just stuff going on. And then the opposite. I had a guy who says, no, I don't have any that. But he says I was traveling in France, and we were drinking wine like it was water, and I never had a hangover symptom, and I did it, and I was like, I don't know dude, like I [00:22:45] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. Well, there's, there's one answer to some of this, which is if you're on vacation and you don't have to get up early and you're relaxed and you probably don't get as many headaches. [00:22:58] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:22:59] Andrew Waterhouse: So I think that's a large part of it, especially for Americans visiting Europe. They're on vacation. but I think there is something to the sulfites question. And that is that inexpensive wine often, not always, but often has more bound sulfites. [00:23:18] Craig Macmillan: Yep. [00:23:19] Andrew Waterhouse: And this is probably because those grapes have a little bit more mold on them or a lot more mold. And when they get to the crusher, the winemaker goes, Oh, there's mold on these fruits. So we're going to add sulfites to, to take care of the botrytis, right? [00:23:34] We don't want the fruit to get oxidized and damaged. They had a bunch of sulfites. The consequence of that is that in the finished line, There's a lot more. Bound to SO2, which shows up in the total SO2 number. [00:23:47] You know what it's bound to? [00:23:49] Craig Macmillan: No. [00:23:49] Andrew Waterhouse: It's bound to largely acid aldehyde. [00:23:52] Craig Macmillan: Really? [00:23:53] Oh! Well that would make sense. Yeah, that would make sense. [00:23:56] Andrew Waterhouse: And the, the reason for that is that during the fermentation, the yeast are converting all this sugar the alcohol, but there's an intermediate step which is acetaldehyde. [00:24:06] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:24:07] Andrew Waterhouse: If you have SO2 floating around, as you would if you'd added a lot of it up front, it binds that acetaldehyde before it gets reduced to ethanol, to alcohol. if you start a fermentation with a high level of added SO2, then you will end up with a wine that has more bound acetaldehyde. And that could be a marker, say, of less expensive wine. [00:24:31] So it's possible that those people are, what they're experiencing is direct ingestion of acetaldehyde, which is being released into the blood and that that's causing them a problem. [00:24:45] Now, I've looked and looked, and I cannot find any data on what's called absorption of acetaldehyde from wine, or from food for that matter. I keep, I'm going to keep looking, [00:24:56] but for some reason or other, this hasn't been subject of a published study, although maybe I just haven't been competent enough to find it. [00:25:05] Craig Macmillan: I doubt that. [00:25:07] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, sometimes these are, you know, they're very specialized and they're indexed in funny ways. And, [00:25:13] You know, and the other thing was, you know, when the study came out, I had all these questions. I was talking to this one reporter and she said, well, I can drink natural wine. [00:25:24] It doesn't give me headaches. And I was like, oh boy, what's this about? [00:25:27] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. [00:25:28] Andrew Waterhouse: But thinking about that further when you make natural wine, you don't add any sulfites or at least you're not supposed to, Right. And consequently in the finished wine, the level of acetaldehyde would have to be very low or else it would smell like sherry. [00:25:41] Craig Macmillan: Right. Right. [00:25:43] Andrew Waterhouse: And yes, granted, many natural wines have funky smells, but they don't by and large smell like sherry. [00:25:49] So it's possible that natural wines have in general, Much less acid aldehyde than conventional one. you know, all these questions have brought up some interesting issues, I think, you know, the industry should be looking into you know, these are these issues like how much acid aldehyde Do we want in our wine and how can we reduce it if we want to reduce it? [00:26:15] I don't think anybody's really looking at that yet. I think that would be a very interesting question to pursue. Oh [00:26:24] Craig Macmillan: you just, you just reminded me of, of something two things that I, I had forgotten about. One I used to teach like enology for babies, enology for dummies thing for the public. I am in no way qualified other than just experience to do that. [00:26:39] But I broke it down in that I do that sugar aldehyde, alcohol arrows, and I'd say, okay, this, this acid aldehyde. Remember this one? This one's coming back. We're going to see this again later. So write this one down. We're going to get to that later. And sure enough, now it's just through the body and, and I think breathalyzers work based on that. [00:27:00] Don't they? It's like density. Something like that. So the aldehyde, they're actually, [00:27:05] I think so. I got to look that up again, but because by the time it gets to your breath, your body's, Processing it, right? Hugely important. Not just that compound, but aldehyde is just kind of a general well, maybe we should all invest in like some kind of, I don't know, AO unit or wine X ray or something at our house. [00:27:21] And then we could get the totals and know before we drink it you know, maybe we could figure out if somebody could come up with a consumer friendly, you know, put it in a vial and shake it and it turns blue. Don't drink it kind of thing. I'm just being silly. I don't know. [00:27:34] Andrew Waterhouse: idea. [00:27:35] Craig Macmillan: You go to different like wine shops and stuff, and there's all kinds of stirs and additives and strainers and funnels and stuff that are supposed to take things out. [00:27:45] And I've always really wanted to see what those things do. They do anything or not, or I don't know. I'd like to try it. Finally, is there one takeaway on this topic, this question to both you, one takeaway you'd like people to know, I [00:27:57] Andrew Waterhouse: well, I think the key thing is that we haven't done any experiments on people yet. [00:28:03] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:28:04] Andrew Waterhouse: And so what we have here is, I would call it a well founded theory, [00:28:09] Craig Macmillan: Mhmm. [00:28:09] Andrew Waterhouse: I think people shouldn't rush out and start changing the way they drink yet. They might want to try some experiments. But we don't have the final word yet. [00:28:20] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. [00:28:24] Apramita Devi: Same. Yeah. This is just very preliminary study. And we just have a theory out. So we still don't know, like, what happens in the actual body. [00:28:34] Craig Macmillan: Well, I hope that we can do that. [00:28:36] Andrew Waterhouse: We're always looking for support for experiments. If anybody wants to support that, get in touch. [00:28:43] Craig Macmillan: You know, another creative thought that I have when I'm preparing for this is like, you know, , people either get headaches from wine or they don't. If I'm someone who wants to enjoy wine, but gets headaches, I would be really attracted to a product that had a back label if we could make health. statements, which we cannot, that would say now low in quercetin or, you know, headache free, you know, no, we would never get that through TTP, obviously, but but, but, you know, but we went round and round with that on sulfites, you know you know, organic waste, no added sulfites, you know, you can say that. [00:29:14] Andrew Waterhouse: I think it would be possible to perhaps have a declaration on a bottle about the level of quercetin, whether it's high or low. I suppose. I don't know. [00:29:24] One company did get a label through that had resveratrol levels on it, but then TTB stopped approving that. So only one company has that approval. But I think in that case the reason for denying the label is that it is a proxy for health claim. Thank you. [00:29:44] Quercetin, you know, whether it's high or low is really, it's not, it's not making a health claim. We're not claiming that this wine is healthier for you than the other has to do with headaches or not headaches. [00:29:55] And I don't see that as really a health claim. [00:29:58] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's just see how this develops. You never know. Let's face it. I mean, we're talking about nutrition. This is August of 2024, the date for this recording. We're talking about having nutritional labeling on wine. Right? Which I think would be a very interesting nutritional label, quite frankly. [00:30:13] I would, I would love to see that, you know. Zero percent of the RDA of everything, again, at the end of one of my lectures I'd introduce potassium, and at the end I'd say, so how much wine do you have to drink to get your RDA of potassium? You have to drink a gallon and a half of wine a day. So, maybe not a big contributor. Maybe not a big contributor. Where can people find out more about both of you? [00:30:37] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, I think probably the best starting point would be our LinkedIn pages. [00:30:43] Craig Macmillan: And those will be in the show notes. [00:30:45] Andrew Waterhouse: and I do have a website at UC Davis called waterhouse. ucdavis. edu. [00:30:52] Craig Macmillan: And that will be in there as well. What about you, Apremita? [00:30:54] Apramita Devi: For me, LinkedIn page. [00:30:58] And if people want to see about my research or my past research, they can go to my Google Scholar page to [00:31:05] Craig Macmillan: Awesome. Thank you. Well, thanks so much for being here. Our guests today were Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis, and Apramita Devi, a postdoctoral researcher in viticulture and knowledge at UC Davis. Really interesting work. [00:31:21] I'm glad that you folks are doing it. I've been a big fan of you, Dr. Waterhouse, for a long time, and now that I've seen your work, I'm a big fan of you. Apremita. You've done some pretty cool stuff in the last five years. So again, thanks. And thank you for listening to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard team. [00:31:38] Please keep downloading episodes. Please visit the show page. Lots of information there. And we also have a new publication, Understanding Wine Chemistry by Andrew Waterhouse, Gavin Sachs, and David Jeffrey. Is that correct? [00:31:53] Andrew Waterhouse: That's correct. [00:31:55] Craig Macmillan: This is out in the world now. [00:31:57] Andrew Waterhouse: It's just out this month. [00:31:59] Craig Macmillan: That sounds like a must have. [00:32:01] Andrew Waterhouse: I agree. [00:32:03] Craig Macmillan: That sounds like a must have. , I will leave the name out, but there was a very famous book written by a group of folks from CSU Fresno and some collaborators. And I don't have a copy because I bought five copies in my cellar. People stole them every single time. So, this is the same kind of book, folks. [00:32:20] Maybe buy five copies. And just hand them out to give one to your assistant winemaker. Give one to your cellar master and just say, here, these are yours. I'm keeping my copy. Thank you very much. That's, that's really cool. And again, thanks for being on the podcast. [00:32:33] Beth Vukmanic: Thank you for listening today's podcast was brought to you by wonderful laboratories. Wonderful laboratories operates two state of the art high throughput laboratories. He's located in Shaffer, California to support pathogen detection and nutrient analysis. The team provides full service support to customers with field sampling. Custom panels and special projects. They're. Customers include pest control advisors, growers, consultants, seed. Companies, backyard gardeners, ranchers, and more. [00:33:10] Make sure you check out the show notes. To learn more about. Andrew. And Oprah meta. To read a great article about their research. Why do some people get headaches from drinking red wine? [00:33:19] And if you're looking. Looking for. Some more fun wine at trivia to share at holiday parties this season. Listen into sustainable Winegrowing podcast episode. 74, the spirit of wine. [00:33:31] If you liked the show, do. It's a big favor by sharing it with a friend subscribing and leaving us a review. You can find all of the podcasts@vineyardteam.org slash podcast. Podcast. And you can reach us at podcast@vineyardteam.org until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. [00:33:49]   Nearly perfect transcription by Descript

Interviuri de umanizare cu prezidențiabili la Antena 3: Elena Lasconi în primul episod, despre fructele care au energie două ore de când sunt rupte, Dumnezeu și furnicile pe care le crește în ogradă (G4Media) - Alegerile despre care nu vorbește nimeni. Un Parlament de „ciucănari”, „ciolăcari” și „șoșonari”? (Libertatea) - România vrea să stoarcă norii cu rachete. Cum se creează ploaia artificială și care sunt riscurile (Panorama) Ciolacu a mers la piață cu un candidat și s-a întors cu portofoliul gol - Interviu (SpotMedia)Premierul Ciolacu a ascultat-o pe Ursula von der Leyen și a propus o femeie pentru un mandat de comisar, dar ce se aude pe holurile clădirii de la Berlaymont că va primi România sună pompos, dar e un balon de săpun; dacă voiam ceva util, am fi luptat pentru afacerile interne, pentru a avea o carte în plus în dosarul Schengen.Expertul în drept european Alin Orgoan analizeză, într-un interviu acordat Spotmedia.ro, ce ar putea obține România în viitoarea componență a Comisiei Europene, unde premierul Marcel Ciolacu a propus-o pe Roxana Mînzatu. Ultimele informații, publicate și de Politico, care face un tur de previziuni, sunt că România ar primi portofoliul de comisar pentru muncă, drepturi sociale şi locuinţe.UE nu are competențe în tratate în ceea ce privește rezolvarea locuințelor. UE nu poate să rezolve problema locuințelor din Europa, deoarece cauzele variază de la o țară la alta și acolo unde problemele au fost rezolvate în trecut nu pot fi replicate la scară europeană, cum este modelul din Viena. Este un portofoliu slab, pentru ca a șasea țară ca mărime din UE să primească cel mai slab portofoliu. Aceasta arată abilitățile slabe de negociere ale premierului Ciolacu, care nu știe să se impună, să fie asertiv, e de părere expertul. Interviuri de umanizare cu prezidențiabili la Antena 3: Elena Lasconi în primul episod, despre fructele care au energie două ore de când sunt rupte, Dumnezeu și furnicile pe care le crește în ogradă (G4Media)Moderatorul Antena 3 Mihai Gâdea a anunțat, luni seară, o serie de interviuri ”față în față” cu principalii candidați la alegerile prezidențiale lăsând impresia, din discurs și modul în care a prezentat dialogurile cu politicienii, unor discuții despre teme de interes pentru electorat, scrie G4Media.Seria de interviuri, care par mai degrabă publicitare, a început cu Elena Lasconi, candidata USR la prezidențiale, care l-a primit pe Gâdea în pragul porții cu Hermesina, cățelușa politicianului. Cei s-au tutuit tot timpul emisiunii, iar Mihai Gâdea s-a jucat de mai multe ori cu cățelul șefei USR.Lasconi (52 de ani) a povestit cum și-a luat casa în care locuiește în urmă cu 21 de ani, atunci când visa ”să fie bunică cu trei nepoți” care plămădește aluatul de cozonac.Pe parcursul emisiunii, candidata USR a vorbit îndelung despre Biserică și religie, spiritualitate și alte derivate din câmpul lexical, de la anafură (pâine uscată sfințită care se împarte credincioșilor la sfârșitul slujbei de Liturghie, n.red.) la candele, Dumnezeu etc.Seria interviurilor publicitare marca Antena 3 și Mihai Gâdea va continua cu Nicolae Ciucă, Mircea Geoană, Marcel Ciolacu, George Simion și Diana Șoșoacă, conform anunțului moderatorului de luni seară. PNL a dat jos panourile cu „ostașul Ciucă” în mai multe județe din țară / Liberalii pregătesc afișajul pentru candidații la parlamentare și Ciucă prezidențiabil (G4Media)PNL a dat jos imaginile de pe panourile de afișaj stradal care îl înfățișau pe Nicolae Ciucă ”ostașul în slujba țării” și care făceau publicitate pentru controversata carte biografică, lansată duminică.Imaginile au dispărut de pe autostrada A2 din împrejurimile Constanței, ale Bucureștiului, ale Sibiului, dar și din jurul Timișoarei, notează G4Media.Conform unor membri din echipa de comunicare a liberalilor, urmează o nouă etapă din campanie iar în locul panourilor cu cartea lui Nicolae Ciucă vor fi afișate imagini cu candidații la alegerile parlamentare, dar și cu Nicolae Ciucă, de această dată în postura de candidat prezidențiabil.O investigație a jurnalistului Cristian Andrei pentru publicația Snoop a arătat că în perioada mai-august PNL a cheltuit „din subvenții acordate de la bugetul de stat” 510.000 de euro pe lună pe 400 de panouri stradale care promovează cartea lui Nicolae Ciucă, un proiect personal finanțat din bani publici. Partidul a mai achitat 450.000 de euro pentru producerea și montarea afișajului în toată țara. Alegerile despre care nu vorbește nimeni. Un Parlament de „ciucănari”, „ciolăcari” și „șoșonari”? (Libertatea)Din agenda publică lipsesc cu desăvârșire discuțiile referitoare la alegerile parlamentare din 1 decembrie. Toți „ochii” sunt îndreptați spre prezidențiabili. Ei sunt vedetele momentului. Competiția pentru Palatul Cotroceni este mai atractivă decât cea pentru Casa Poporului, constată Daniel Gorgonaru, senior editor Libertatea.Însă, din punctul de vedere al funcționării statului, Parlamentul are un rol extrem de important, iar lipsa de interes pentru alegerile din 1 decembrie poate avea consecințe grave. În definitiv, Parlamentul României este locul unde se fac și se desfac legile după care țara este guvernată, mai bine sau mai prost, în funcție de calitatea actelor normative. În mod evident, acest proces de legiferare este strâns lagat de calitatea parlamentarilor: profesională și morală, atrage atenția jurnalistul. România vrea să stoarcă norii cu rachete. Cum se creează ploaia artificială și care sunt riscurile (Panorama)România urmează să-și producă propriile rachete de „însămânțare” a norilor, care ne-ar putea aduce precipitații în momentele în care seceta devine nefiresc de mult prezentă.Ploaie artificială pe pământ românesc s-a mai văzut, dar procedura era efectuată de parteneri străini, precum grecii. Acum, rachetele de însămânțare a norilor vor fi produse de Electromecanica Ploiești.Fiind o tehnologie de modificare a vremii, însămânțarea norilor este un procedeu intens dezbătut. Unii cred că e o măsură benefică pentru combaterea efectelor încălzirii climatice, în timp ce alții, precum și Organizația Mondială de Meteorologie, consideră că nu am avut suficient timp să-i studiem efectele.Substanța folosită pentru procedeu este cel mai adesea iodura de argint, care există în mod natural în mediu, în concentrații mici, nefiind dăunătoare oamenilor sau animalelor.Mai sunt însă substanțe care se folosesc pentru însămânțarea norilor, care ridică ceva mai multe probleme. Printre ele, injectările cu dioxid de sulf (SO2). Această substanță a fost responsabilă de cea mai mare distrugere a stratului de ozon în 1991, când cantități imense au fost eliberate în atmosferă odată cu erupția Pinatubo, un vulcan din Filipine.Pe larg pe pagina Panorama.

New juice to wet your beaks. To follow along check out the intro blogs and videos here: https://www.enneagrammer.com/instinct-zones — (3:29) What are the instinct zone stems? — (9:51) Why Alexandra feels like others are doing social wrong / SO2-1 the gossip flake — (13:48) The Social Zones — (16:54) DG's social zone 1 provocations — (27:22) John's SO2-3 A-list player influencer vs Emeka's SO3-2 group container — (31:15) Alexandra's SO2-1 sensitivity to social chemistry — (34:05) Emeka's impractical SP1-2 — (38:10) The Self-pres Zones — (41:26) DG and Alexandra's SP3-2 cozey uniform  — (54:45) Sexual zones / Jealousy and competition in Zone 2 — (1:02:16) Big hormone consummation in SX Zone 3 / DG's Zone 2 Himbo proclivities  — (1:11:27) Your zone stem is the order you do the cycle in that instinct — (1:19:39) Sex drive and SX3-2 Donate to support the show: venmo - @bighormone https://paypal.me/bighormone John and Alexandra are teaching a sexual instinct zoom course via https://www.theenneagramschool.com/sexual-instinct-class The Pain of the Blindspot seminar with John & Alexandra https://www.theenneagramschool.com/painoftheblindspot Find out what type of toxic you are 9w19w88w99w81w99w89w16w76w79w19w86w59w89w19w86w76w79w8 https://www.enneagrammer.com/ Check out Alexandra's astrology-enneagram readings and trash tv gossip: https://www.saturnruled9.com Rediscover the centers of intelligence and object relations with John and Josh's 6-part class: https://www.theenneagramschool.com/developmental-centers Only morons don't have John's book on the instinctual drives: https://www.amazon.com/dp/0578784971/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_VZ3VZVEG0M1RY42AWN2T You're a bread person if you've only bought DG's Trifix Booklet less than twice: https://www.enneagrammer.com/store/trifix-venn-booklet-david-gray Call the nota4 hotline with your comments at (323) 696-0647. Or you can also email bhepodcast@gmail.com or DM us with a pre-recorded voice message

In this episode of the Vint Podcast Billy Galanko interviews southern California old-vine-winemaker, Abe Schoener. Abe is a former philosophy professor and the innovative winemaker behind the Scholium Project, a Californian micronegociant winery known for its unconventional methods. Although influenced by natural winemaking, Schoener does not strictly adhere to its principles and takes an open approach to the craft with a focus on old-vine fruit.Schoener's latest venture is an urban winery near the Los Angeles River, aimed at aligning with the city's urban demographic. This project began in 2019 with minimal equipment and a focus on sourcing unique vineyards across California, particularly those with old vines.His winemaking philosophy is flexible, using sulfur dioxide (SO2) selectively to enhance the wine's quality. Schoener's approach emphasizes a deep commitment to the vineyard and a willingness to experiment with under-appreciated sites. We hope you enjoy hearing from this SoCal wine icon and learning more about unique winemaking philosophies. Chapters:02:58 Exploring Unique Wine Experiences06:33 Interview with Abe Schoener: LA's Wine Insider07:22 The History and Philosophy of Winemaking08:49 Reviving Old Vineyards in Southern California12:06 The Mystery of Lone Wolf Vineyard22:51 The Legacy of Mission Grapes25:16 Winemaking in Los Angeles Today27:28 The Shift of Vineyards to Cucamonga28:37 The Birth of Los Angeles River Wine Company31:16 Challenges and Innovations in Winemaking37:28 Exploring Cucamonga Vineyards48:54 Future Prospects and Distribution56:11 Conclusion and Final ThoughtsThe Vint Podcast is presented by Coravin, the world's leader in wine preservation systems. Listeners of the Vint Podcast can take 15% off their purchase on Coravin.com by using promo code VINT15 at checkout*. Members of the trade can access exclusive discounts at trade.Coravin.com.The Vint Podcast is a production of the Vint Marketplace, your source for the highest quality stock of fine wines and rare whiskies. Visit www.vintmarketplace.com. To learn more about Vint and the Vint Marketplace, visit us at https://vint.co or Vintmarketplace.com or email Brady Weller at brady@vint.co, or Billy Galanko at Billy@vintmarketplace.com.*Terms and Conditions Apply. Offer valid only on Coravin.com while supplies last. Pricing and discount are subject to change at any time. Coravin reserves the right to limit order quantities. No adjustments to prior purchases. Not valid for cash. Cheers!Past Guests Include: William Kelley, Peter Liem, Eric Asimov, Bobby Stuckey, Rajat "Raj" Parr, Erik Segelbaum, André Hueston Mack, Emily Saladino, Konstantin Baum, Landon Patterson, Heather Wibbels, Carlton "CJ" Fowler, Boris Guillome, Christopher Walkey, Danny Jassy, Kristy Wenz, Dan Petroski, Buster Scher, Andrew Nelson, Jane Anson, Tim Irwin, Matt Murphy, Allen Meadows, Altan Insights, Tim Gaiser, Vince Anter, Joel Peterson, Megan O'Connor, Adam Lapierre, Jason Haas, Ken Freeman, Lisa Perrotti-Brown,...

En janvier dernier, l'Organisation météorologique mondiale a annoncé que 2023 avait été l'année la plus chaude jamais enregistrée. Une des causes principales : la réduction de la pollution atmosphérique. En effet, la combustion de combustibles fossiles dans les centrales électriques et les moteurs émet non seulement des gaz à effet de serre, responsables du réchauffement climatique, mais aussi des aérosols refroidissants, tels que les oxydes de soufre (SOx). Ces particules réfléchissent une partie des rayons solaires et favorisent la formation de nuages, qui agissent comme des miroirs.Des progrès significatifs ont été réalisés récemment pour réduire la pollution de l'air. L'Organisation maritime internationale a instauré des restrictions en 2020 sur la quantité de soufre autorisée dans les carburants maritimes, réduisant les émissions de dioxyde de soufre (SO2) de 80 %. La Chine a également diminué ses émissions soufrées de plus de 70 % depuis 2005, grâce à des technologies avancées et des filtres dans les centrales à combustibles fossiles, évitant ainsi plus de 200 000 décès prématurés.Malgré ces avancées, aucun scientifique ne recommande d'arrêter les efforts de dépollution des aérosols, car la pollution atmosphérique cause un nombre de décès trop élevé. En 2021, plus de huit millions de personnes sont décédées en raison de la pollution de l'air, qui est devenue le deuxième facteur de risque de décès chez les enfants de moins de cinq ans, selon l'Unicef. Les experts estiment que la solution réside dans une combinaison de mesures : continuer à lutter contre la pollution de l'air tout en réduisant notre dépendance aux énergies fossiles. Cela permettrait de diminuer considérablement les émissions de gaz à effet de serre, contribuant ainsi à la fois à la santé publique et à la lutte contre le réchauffement climatique. Hébergé par Acast. Visitez acast.com/privacy pour plus d'informations.

Este episódio usa o dióxido de enxofre para falar sobre poluentes, regulamentação, aerossóis e geoengenharia. Sim, tudo isso. Isso porque pequenas coisinhas na atmosfera tem impactos enormes! Links e Referências – Sulfur Dioxide Basics – Analysis: How low-sulphur shipping rules are affecting global warming – Aerosols: are SO2 emissions reductions contributing to global warming? –...

Tipperary County Council in partnership with five other Local Authorities, carried out solid fuel sampling to monitor compliance with the requirements of the Air Pollution Act 1987 (Solid Fuels) Regulations 2022. Of the six samples obtained by Tipperary County Council, five were found to breach the prescribed sulphur limit. Senior Executive Scientist with Tipperary County Council says the public should only purchase solid fuel from reputable fuel merchants. They should also check the product is marked as complying with the Air Pollution Act. The regulations require that retailers only market approved fuels and are urged to check with their suppliers. The burning of high sulphur coal products creates air pollution from (i) sulphur dioxide (SO2) which causes respiratory problems, and (ii) increased levels of fine particulate matter (PM2.5) that can pass through the lungs and enter the blood stream causing cardiopulmonary disorders and strokes. The vast majority of the deaths attributable to air pollution in Ireland are caused by fine particulate matter.

Manca poco al nuovo evento dedicato ai vini naturali che si terrà in una delle zone più trendy di Roma. SO2, enoteca e società di distribuzione di vini naturali italiani ed europei attiva da molti anni nel settore - composta da Alfonso Scarpato, Caterina Frontino, Vincenzo Canzonieri e Giuseppe Bertini -, è all'organizzazione della prima edizione di Quartiere Vino Pigneto da sabato 11 a domenica 12 maggio, con il sostegno di Vini Selvaggi, celebre Fiera Indipendente di Vini Naturali nata nel 2019 e organizzata da Lorenzo Macinanti, Giulia Arimattei e Francesco Testa.

This audio is brought to you by Endress and Hauser, a leading supplier of products, solutions and services for industrial process measurement and automation. Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment Minister Barbara Creecy has granted Sasol South Africa permission to employ a load-based limit to regulate the sulphur dioxide (SO2) of its Secunda boilers in a decision upholding the JSE-listed group's appeal of an earlier National Air Quality Officer (NAQO) determination stipulating the use of a concentration-based limit. Sasol lodged an appeal on July 31, 2023, after NAQO published a determination on July 11, 2023, stating that it was not empowered to grant permission to Sasol to apply an alternative limit for SO2 after a once-off postponement had already been granted to the Secunda operations. The 17 Secunda boilers are currently operating on the basis of a ten-year postponement, until March 31, 2025, in the meeting of new plant standards for SO2 emissions, which was granted on February 23, 2015. Sasol requested that it be allowed to reduce its SO2 emissions by reducing the total number of boilers in use at Secunda and thus the load, rather than by reducing the concentration of SO2 produced by each boiler. NAQO argued that the load-based limit did not comply with the concentration-based limits prescribed in the Minimum Emission Standards (MES) and could, thus, not be considered. Sasol stated in its appeal that the Minister was empowered to consider a fresh 12A application under the National Environmental Management: Air Quality Act. The group argued in its appeal that this approach would result in an improvement of ambient air quality within the local airshed over and above MES compliance, while ensuring that its operations continued. It said a refusal would result in it winding down the Secunda Operations. On April 5, the Minister upheld Sasol's appeal and set aside the decision of the NAQO. In a statement, Sasol said the Minister concluded that its application met all the requirements of Clause 12A, and replaced the NAQO's decision by permitting that a load-based limit of 503 t/d of SO2 be applied from April 1, 2025, up to March 31, 2030. "We will engage with the Minister to finalise the regulatory requirements for the decision to take full effect, following which our atmospheric emission license will have to be varied accordingly," the company added. Just Share, which opposed Sasol's appeal, said the upholding of Sasol's appeal would result in emissions significantly above those permitted by the MES, which the organisation said were already weaker than comparative standards around the world. "This decision means that the government has permitted a private company to set its own pollution limits, making a mockery of pollution laws and constitutional rights, and of any claim by the government to take public health seriously," Just Share added. Creecy noted that those dissatisfied with the decision had the right to apply to a competent court within 180 days to have the decision judicially reviewed.

This audio is brought to you by Endress and Hauser, a leading supplier of products, solutions and services for industrial process measurement and automation. Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment Minister Barbara Creecy has granted Sasol South Africa permission to employ a load-based limit to regulate the sulphur dioxide (SO2) of its Secunda boilers in a decision upholding the JSE-listed group's appeal of an earlier National Air Quality Officer (NAQO) determination stipulating the use of a concentration-based limit. Sasol lodged an appeal on July 31, 2023, after NAQO published a determination on July 11, 2023, stating that it was not empowered to grant permission to Sasol to apply an alternative limit for SO2 after a once-off postponement had already been granted to the Secunda operations. The 17 Secunda boilers are currently operating on the basis of a ten-year postponement, until March 31, 2025, in the meeting of new plant standards for SO2 emissions, which was granted on February 23, 2015. Sasol requested that it be allowed to reduce its SO2 emissions by reducing the total number of boilers in use at Secunda and thus the load, rather than by reducing the concentration of SO2 produced by each boiler. NAQO argued that the load-based limit did not comply with the concentration-based limits prescribed in the Minimum Emission Standards (MES) and could, thus, not be considered. Sasol stated in its appeal that the Minister was empowered to consider a fresh 12A application under the National Environmental Management: Air Quality Act. The group argued in its appeal that this approach would result in an improvement of ambient air quality within the local airshed over and above MES compliance, while ensuring that its operations continued. It said a refusal would result in it winding down the Secunda Operations. On April 5, the Minister upheld Sasol's appeal and set aside the decision of the NAQO. In a statement, Sasol said the Minister concluded that its application met all the requirements of Clause 12A, and replaced the NAQO's decision by permitting that a load-based limit of 503 t/d of SO2 be applied from April 1, 2025, up to March 31, 2030. "We will engage with the Minister to finalise the regulatory requirements for the decision to take full effect, following which our atmospheric emission license will have to be varied accordingly," the company added. Just Share, which opposed Sasol's appeal, said the upholding of Sasol's appeal would result in emissions significantly above those permitted by the MES, which the organisation said were already weaker than comparative standards around the world. "This decision means that the government has permitted a private company to set its own pollution limits, making a mockery of pollution laws and constitutional rights, and of any claim by the government to take public health seriously," Just Share added. Creecy noted that those dissatisfied with the decision had the right to apply to a competent court within 180 days to have the decision judicially reviewed.

Please Subscribe and Review: Apple Podcasts | RSS Submit your questions for the podcast here News Topic: 6 ways to LOWER LDL on Keto! Tom Bilyeu Visibly Scared by Jordan Peterson's Warning of What's Next Tomas Pueyo on SO2 injection to stop global warming Show Notes: Coach Cinnamon Prime - Mindset Mastery Course Uniquely human evolution of sialic acid genetics and biology A Simple Method for Assessment of Human Anti-Neu5Gc Antibodies Applied to Kawasaki Disease https://www.foundmyfitness.com/topics/neu5gc Questions:    Testosterone levels and fasting insulin Kevin writes: Hey Robb and Nikki, I am 65 1/2 years young. The last couple of years my sex drive has not been like it had been (it comes and goes, but mostly goes). I did a self referred testosterone level test thinking my levels were low ( also was feeling sluggish and just not feeling quite like myself, but I was thinking that was from my age). To my surprise, my level came back at 1150! I have been taking a prostate supplement the last 6 months called Prostagenix. Before that I was taking flow-max for about 5 years and it just seemed to not be helping my symptoms (taking a lot longer to empty bladder and when I had the urge to go, I had to go, if you know what I mean!) so I switched to this natural supplement. It has a sterol blend on the supplement so I am thinking that maybe that is causing my elevated levels? I also googled it and seen that adrenal gland problems can also cause the high level. I had never had a testosterone level done before so I have nothing to compare this high level with. What are your thoughts on that? Also I did a self referred fasting insulin test and it came back at 5.2. My last 2 fasting glucose test were at 112 and 117. I did a fasting A1C and it was 5.1. Just want to know if 5.2 is high and will lead to insulin resistance or am I there already? The test shows I am in the “normal” range between 2.4 and 26 something! I don't trust what they think normal is. I have been listening to you guys for a while now. I first heard of you when you were in the Tom Woods show and been following you since then! Keep up the great work!   Neu5 GC Teresa writes: Hi Robb and Niki I love your show and listen to it all of the time. I recently listened to Dr. Gundry speaking on Gabby Reese‘s podcast about Neu5 GC, which we get when we consume red meat. He says it causes inflammation and cancer, and that we should only eat it sparingly or only naturally fermented. Not exactly what I want to hear and I find it kind of hard to believe. I have cut out high fodmap vegetables, nightshades,high oxalate vegetables and I've adopted a higher protein diet, 1 g of protein per pound of desired body weight. Chicken is not my favorite and I find it hard to digest. Can you shed light on how much truth there is to this claim . Thank you!   Am I Eating Too Much or Not Enough? Jessica writes, Hi Robb and Nicki, Been listening to the podcast for a few years, and appreciate the content! Also love the way you interact with each other--the love and respect in your relationship comes through--it's encouraging! My question is: Am I eating too much, or not enough? For context, I'm 43 years old, 5'7, 211lbs, and while I am feeling better than I have in probably the last 5 years, I cannot get the scale to budge. My goal would be about 155 (I felt my best at this weight about 8 years ago) I've spent the last 2 years working with a functional medicine practitioner who has helped me clear up some gut infections, mold, and sort out some other digestive concerns (constipation) I've had all the tests: Dutch, GI Map, HTMA, OAT, full thyroid panel (not just TSH), and bloodwork. I'll mention that I'm MTHFR heterozygous, and FNP says based on HTMA, also a "slow oxidizer". Not sure how relevant those two things are to the question. We redid the Dutch recently, and I do seem to be on the low side of progesterone, so she's having me supplement on days 14-28 of my cycle (I'll note my cycle has always been very regular). I sleep 8+ hours a night (actual sleep according to tracker) average 9300 steps/day according to my garmin watch, and lift heavy 30 to 45 minutes 3x/week. I do have a desk job, but I have a walking pad I use daily at the office. I've been working with a nutrition coach at my gym since about August of last year, and while we are seeing some slight body comp changes based on pics and measurements...I'm still carrying more body fat than I would like, and it absolutely seems like it's NOT going anywhere. We started at 1880 calories. (160 grams protein, 175 grams carbs, 60 grams fats), and have adjusted all of those levers to a degree over these 6 months (sometimes up, sometimes down). I'm still basically exactly where I started with my weight. My gym has an InBody Machine, and according to that, my skeletal muscle mass is 76.5 lbs, with a 35.6% body fat. I hear you guys recommend the keto gains calculator, and when I've input my data there, I get the following recommendation: 1489 cals (143 P, 20 C, 93 F) for rest days, and 1679 cals (168 P, 20 C, 103 F). The overall calories seem low, and I do tend to have issues with fat digestion. I hear and read so many things that say women shouldn't be eating less than 2000 calories because of stress on the body, etc....but then some other macro calculators I use put me anywhere between 1800 and 2500 calories. I lost 25 pounds in 3 months about 4 years ago, but didn't keep it off. At that time I was eating 1400 cals, lifting heavy (oly) 3x a week, and training for a 10k 3x a week. It was unsustainable, and I also think may have contributed to some of my other issues. Would really appreciate your all's input as to whether my current macros really are "too much", or if it's not enough. Thanks so much. Sponsor: The Healthy Rebellion Radio is sponsored by our electrolyte company, LMNT. Proper hydration is more than just drinking water. You need electrolytes too! Check out The Healthy Rebellion Radio sponsor LMNT for grab-and-go electrolyte packets to keep you at your peak! They give you all the electrolytes want, none of the stuff you don't. Click here to get your LMNT electrolytes Transcript: Coming soon...    

Więcej informacji o podcaście znajdziesz na tej ⁠stronie⁠. Gościem odcinka był Tomek, pasjonat fotografii analogowej, który zechciał podzielić się odrobinką wiedzy o rozpoczęciu przygody z fotografią analogową… Sociale Gościa: Instagram Tumblr Dodatkowe informacje związane z odcinkiem: Wspomniany światłomierz to Minolta Spotmeter F (nie spotmatic). Wspomniany przeciwutleniacz: Tetenal protectan spray. Wywoływacz fomy: Fomadon P W37 Przeciwutleniacz. Chodziło mi o dwutlenek siarki, a nie dwutlenek węgla (SO2, zamiast CO2 w sprayu). Pozostałe linki, związane z odcinkiem: Serwis aparatów Poznań Kanadyjski startup Karol Bagiński o punktowym pomiarze światła Bardzo dziękuję za dobrnięcie do tego momentu opisu. Proszę o ocenę podcastu i udostępnienie wśród znajomych.

This audio is brought to you by Endress and Hauser, a leading supplier of products, solutions and services for industrial process measurement and automation. Energy and chemicals group Sasol has moved to address investor concerns that its yearly production at Secunda will need to fall to only 6.7-million tons for it to meet its goal of reducing the carbon-heavy Mpumalanga complex's greenhouse gas emissions by 30% by 2030. Delivering his final results presentation, outgoing CEO Fleetwood Grobler insisted that the 6.7-million tons output profile announced in August represented the "low road" production scenario that emerged following a review of its emission roadmap once the use of liquefied natural gas (LNG) was eliminated as a plausible feedstock for Secunda. The review resulted in Sasol impairing the Secunda asset by R35-billion. The JSE group had since progressed with various mitigation actions to ensure that volumes did not fall below 7-million tons while still meeting the goal of reducing coal volumes by 25% by 2030 and honouring its increasingly urgent decarbonisation commitments. Central to these plans is a coal de-stoning initiative, designed to recover its coal quality, alongside initiatives to stabilise volumes through coal purchases and possibly by diverting export coal to Secunda in line with an expectation that the seaborne market will weaken as countries reduce their reliance on the energy mineral. Sasol is already familiar with the dense-medium separation technology that will be employed to de-stone the coal and expects to make a final investment decision (FID) this year, having already made significant progress in securing the necessary environmental approvals. Grobler refused to be drawn on the investment value and told Engineering News in an interview that the capital expenditure figure would be revealed only once the FID was made. "The project is progressing at pace because it's one of the biggest value-unlock projects we have, so it's a priority for us," Grobler said in an interview, following the release of the group's interim results. Sasol's headline earnings a share fell 34% to R20.37 in the six months to December 31, 2023, from R30.90 in the previous comparable period. Grobler said the de-stoning project, together with the group's other initiatives to improve coal quality and supply, could result in Secunda's production volumes recovering to about 7.5-million in the latter part of the current decade. The bulk of the decarbonisation would, thus, arise from the group's plan to turn down its power station boilers, rather than its gasifiers. "There's a big misconception that we have to go to 6.7-million to meet our decarbonisation target," Grobler told Engineering News. Sasol expects Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment Minister Barbara Creecy is to make a decision next month on its controversial proposed alternative approach for measuring the sulphur dioxide (SO2) emissions from the 17 coal boilers at Secunda. Grobler reiterated that a refusal by the Minister would result in the phased shutdown of Secunda. Should it receive approval, the commitment to reducing its coal consumption by 25% would be met by the boiler turndown plan, which would also enable it to meet its SO2 legal obligations and most of its decarbonisation, the balance of which would be met through a reduction in Secunda's output to 7-million tons by 2030. "This means that the alternative source of carbon required to supplement production is not equivalent to the full 25% cost reduction," Grobler stressed. NO GAS-CLIFF REPRIEVE The group was working on a range of feedstock options, including raising the proportion of gas used in Secunda's production process from about 10% currently to about 13%. The gas option would depend materially on the group's exploration success in southern Mozambique, where four additional wells had extended the supply plateau to 2028 and where there may be potential to extend the plateau to 2030 should the recen...

This audio is brought to you by Endress and Hauser, a leading supplier of products, solutions and services for industrial process measurement and automation. Energy and chemicals group Sasol has moved to address investor concerns that its yearly production at Secunda will need to fall to only 6.7-million tons for it to meet its goal of reducing the carbon-heavy Mpumalanga complex's greenhouse gas emissions by 30% by 2030. Delivering his final results presentation, outgoing CEO Fleetwood Grobler insisted that the 6.7-million tons output profile announced in August represented the "low road" production scenario that emerged following a review of its emission roadmap once the use of liquefied natural gas (LNG) was eliminated as a plausible feedstock for Secunda. The review resulted in Sasol impairing the Secunda asset by R35-billion. The JSE group had since progressed with various mitigation actions to ensure that volumes did not fall below 7-million tons while still meeting the goal of reducing coal volumes by 25% by 2030 and honouring its increasingly urgent decarbonisation commitments. Central to these plans is a coal de-stoning initiative, designed to recover its coal quality, alongside initiatives to stabilise volumes through coal purchases and possibly by diverting export coal to Secunda in line with an expectation that the seaborne market will weaken as countries reduce their reliance on the energy mineral. Sasol is already familiar with the dense-medium separation technology that will be employed to de-stone the coal and expects to make a final investment decision (FID) this year, having already made significant progress in securing the necessary environmental approvals. Grobler refused to be drawn on the investment value and told Engineering News in an interview that the capital expenditure figure would be revealed only once the FID was made. "The project is progressing at pace because it's one of the biggest value-unlock projects we have, so it's a priority for us," Grobler said in an interview, following the release of the group's interim results. Sasol's headline earnings a share fell 34% to R20.37 in the six months to December 31, 2023, from R30.90 in the previous comparable period. Grobler said the de-stoning project, together with the group's other initiatives to improve coal quality and supply, could result in Secunda's production volumes recovering to about 7.5-million in the latter part of the current decade. The bulk of the decarbonisation would, thus, arise from the group's plan to turn down its power station boilers, rather than its gasifiers. "There's a big misconception that we have to go to 6.7-million to meet our decarbonisation target," Grobler told Engineering News. Sasol expects Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment Minister Barbara Creecy is to make a decision next month on its controversial proposed alternative approach for measuring the sulphur dioxide (SO2) emissions from the 17 coal boilers at Secunda. Grobler reiterated that a refusal by the Minister would result in the phased shutdown of Secunda. Should it receive approval, the commitment to reducing its coal consumption by 25% would be met by the boiler turndown plan, which would also enable it to meet its SO2 legal obligations and most of its decarbonisation, the balance of which would be met through a reduction in Secunda's output to 7-million tons by 2030. "This means that the alternative source of carbon required to supplement production is not equivalent to the full 25% cost reduction," Grobler stressed. NO GAS-CLIFF REPRIEVE The group was working on a range of feedstock options, including raising the proportion of gas used in Secunda's production process from about 10% currently to about 13%. The gas option would depend materially on the group's exploration success in southern Mozambique, where four additional wells had extended the supply plateau to 2028 and where there may be potential to extend the plateau to 2030 should the recen...

On this week's episode of The English Wine Diaries podcast is Tommy Grimshaw, head winemaker at Langham, in Dorset. Tommy developed a love for English wine after a summer holiday season spent labelling and bottling wine as a teenager. He left school to work a harvest at Sharpham Vineyard – now known as Sandridge Barton – in Devon and there, he progressed to Assistant Winemaker. He joined Langham in 2019 and worked alongside Daniel Ham with the aim of producing world class sparkling wines without fining or filtration and minimal SO2 additions. In January 2020, at the age of 24, Tommy took on the role of Head Winemaker, making him the youngest head winemaker in the UK.As well as producing and developing Langham's award-winning, minimal intervention wines, Tommy has judged for the Independent English Wine Awards, has been included in the Harpers 30 Under 30 list and was named their Commitment Champion for his dedication to the industry.We talk about Tommy's love of hands-off winemaking, why the landscape of the Jurassic Coast, where Langham is situated, is so perfect for creating sparkling wine (despite the rain!) and his hopes for more young people to join the English wine-making scene. You can follow Tommy on Instagram @tommy_grimshaw and find out more about Langham at langhamwine.co.uk. This episode of The English Wine Diaries is sponsored by Wickhams, The Great British Wine Merchant. Visit wickhamwine.co.uk to see their award-winning range of English wine with free deliver on orders over £40. The English Wine Diaries listeners can also get 10% discount on their first purchase by entering the code TEWD10.Thanks for listening to The English Wine Diaries. If you enjoyed the podcast then please leave a rating or review, it helps boost our ratings and makes it easier for other people to find us. To find out who will be joining me next on the English Wine Diaries, follow @theenglishwinediaries on Instagram and for more regular English wine news and reviews, sign up to our newsletter at thesouthernquarter.co.uk.

High temperatures and extreme weather events can have numerous impacts on wine grapes and ultimately wine quality. Dr. Andreea Botezatu, Associate Professor and Extension Enology Specialist at Texas A&M University, Texas AgriLife Service finds that changes in ripening patterns are the most common. In high heat, sugars accumulate faster, acids degrade, ripening happens earlier and the result is higher alcohol wines. The challenge is that ripening is not linear. Tannins and maturation of the seeds do not progress at the same pace. Plus, high pH causes color and flavor instability. Andreea is experimenting with verjus, the juice of green grapes. In North America, grapes from crop thinning are traditionally considered waste. However, in Eastern Europe and the Middle East, green grape juice is used in many culinary practices. Verjus has little sugar, high acidity, and low pH making it a perfect addition to unbalanced wines. Learn about her current experiment testing both red and white grape verjus against three other acidification methods. Plus, Andreea gives listeners tips on how to prevent that green pepper flavor caused by ladybug taint. Resources: 145: New Class of Compounds Linked to Smoke Taint in Wines (Podcast) 143: Can Barrier Sprays Protect Against Smoke Taint in Wine? (Podcast) Dr. Andreea Botezatu's LinkedIn page Dr. Andreea Botezatu ResearchGate Dr. Andreea Botezatu Google Scholar Malo-Lactic Fermentation in a New Climate Sustainable Wine Practices Texas A&M Facebook page Texas A&M Foundation Texas AgriLife Extension Enology YouTube Vineyard Team Programs: Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship - Donate SIP Certified – Show your care for the people and planet   Sustainable Ag Expo – The premiere winegrowing event of the year - $50 OFF with code PODCAST23 Sustainable Winegrowing On-Demand (Western SARE) – Learn at your own pace Vineyard Team – Become a Member Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.   Transcript Craig Macmillan  0:00  And my guest today is Andreea Botezatu She is Associate Professor and extension enology specialist at Texas A&M University, the Texas AgriLife Service. Thanks for being our guest today.   Andreea Botezatu  0:11  Thank you for having me.   Craig Macmillan  0:12  We're very interested in some of the work you've been doing recently around effects of warming climates on vines and on wines. You're in enologist. In particular, you've been doing work on wine quality. That Correct? And you've been doing work in Texas, obviously.   Andreea Botezatu  0:26  Yes, for the past seven years or something. Yeah.   Craig Macmillan  0:30  And would you say that temperatures during the growing season in Texas overall have been increasing?   Andreea Botezatu  0:35  I would Yes, the temperatures historically have been increasing. And furthermore, we see a lot more extreme weather events. So temperature records being broken, as well as like I said, extreme weather storms, winds hail, a lot of hail we, we've been having quite a bit of hail in Texas. So these can affect the process of grape growing.   Craig Macmillan  0:58  Absolutely. So definitely, there's been some changes, how has this been affecting one quality, what particular parameters are being most affected?   Andreea Botezatu  1:04  Right. So this is not straightforward answer for this question. Because because several things can happen when you have extreme weather events and temperatures rising. The biggest one that we see here is a changing ripening patterns. So sugar accumulation and acid degradation, they kind of change sugar tends to accumulate much faster, because of the earlier heat we tend to see earlier ripening. So earlier, harvesting sugar accumulates faster acids degrade quite a bit, the ripening is not linear anymore. So we see ripening in terms of sugar, but we don't see that in terms of tannins or aroma compounds or maturation of the seeds. So there's a bit of disconnect there. That's one thing because of the higher sugar accumulation, we tend to see higher levels of alcohols in wine, which is not necessarily a good thing. There's only so much so much alcohol that you want to have in wine that becomes overbearing and unpleasant and the wines will be unbalanced. Most importantly for us in Texas, and I'm sure for any other grape growing region that deals with high temperatures is an increase in pH because of acid degradation. We see grapes coming in with very low titratable acidity, we're talking three four grams per liter, and then pH is of four and above.   Craig Macmillan  2:31  Wow.   Andreea Botezatu  2:32  Yeah, yes, wow, indeed, very, very high pH is that we have to deal with as winemakers as I'm sure your audience knows high pH can cause a host of problems and wine quality problems from microbiological instabilities, compromising one quality that way to color, instability, aroma, and flavor, balance all of that. So that's a big thing that's happening.   Craig Macmillan  2:56  And those high sugars are also problematic just for getting your fermentations done.   Andreea Botezatu  3:00  Absolutely. You can have problems starting your fermentation, you can have problems finishing your fermentation,   Craig Macmillan  3:05  What kinds of things are winemakers doing to try to manage these factors, but and what kinds of things are you looking at to try to manage these factors?   Andreea Botezatu  3:13  Right, so my researcher at A&M, is focused on acidity and acidity management, again with a focus on pH more so than titratable acidity. So over the past six years, we've been looking at two alternative acidification methods. One is enzymatic, it employs the use of glucose oxidase that is a is an enzyme that helps transform glucose into Gluconic acid, thereby increasing the acidity of the wine and increasing the pH. So we've done some research on both reds and whites. And that research has been published in peer reviewed journal. So those are links that I can share with you and now we are working with verjus and that falls within the sustainability category as well because a little bit of background on what verjus is and how it can help. Verjus is the juice of green grapes. It is produced from unripe grapes that are pressed and the juice obtained is called verjus which comes from French, the French language jus vert, green juice. So basically it means green juice. And because it's made from unripe grapes, you can imagine there's little sugar in it, the acidity is quite quite high and the pH is quite low. Traditionally, grape growers can practice this crop thinning practice to manage their crop and crop quality. What they do is they drop some of the grapes on the vine before they ripen in order for all the resources of the vine to be directed to the grapes that are leftover. So the grapes that are getting dropped are traditionally especially in North America considered waste nothing is done with them. They are left on the vineyard floor. I have a European background right and I I grew up with these grapes being turned into virjus, we have a different name for it in Romanian, but same idea. And this juice was used quite heavily for various culinary practices in Eastern Europe and throughout the Middle East. So remembering that I thought, Well, why not try to take these grapes and make verjus out of them and you start to acidify? It is a natural product that comes from the vineyard and it gives added value to the grapes, right?   Craig Macmillan  5:29  And these grapes, are we talking just past verasion, are we talking still in the in the berry green hard pea stage?   Andreea Botezatu  5:36  So verjus traditionally is made pre veraison. There's not a set date for grape thinning or verjus production. It can vary anywhere from 30 days post bloom to 45 days post bloom and the beginning of verasion there.   Craig Macmillan  5:53  So tell me more about this. We make some verjus we collect some berries that haven't been through verasion yet, and then they're crushed, repressed or something. I'm also curious, is this done? Can this be done with both red and white varieties?   Andreea Botezatu  6:03  Again, a very good question. So last year, we had our first experiment with verjus and we made it with white from white grapes on Muscat Canelli. This year, we are making it from both white and red, we're using different varieties. And we're looking a little bit differently at it. So still, we want to see how it affects one quality and wine sensory profile. But what we're doing extra this year, so we're doing red and white. And on top of that we are comparing this method with three different acidification methods, three other acidification methods, both from a chemical and sensory perspective. So we're looking at, you know, the traditional tartaric acid addition that most wineries do, we're looking at verjus addition, we're looking at the GLX glucose oxidase that I mentioned earlier. And we're looking at ion exchange, which is becoming quite popular for pH reduction.   Craig Macmillan  6:57  Tell me more about that.   Andreea Botezatu  6:58  So ion exchange resins are widely used in water treatments, soft water, hard water, depending on what you're trying to achieve. Basically, there, there's resins that have been charged, and they can release either cations or anions. In our case, the resin that we use releases protons or hydrogen ions, and then the potassium in the wine gets reduced. And by releasing protons, increases the number of protons in solution, thereby decreasing the pH. And you basically pump your wines through this ion exchange column that holds the resin and it comes up on the other end.   Craig Macmillan  7:35  If I understand correctly, that's also removing the potassium, which is the buffer that's keeping it high. All right.   Andreea Botezatu  7:40  Some of that, yes, not all of it. Yes.   Craig Macmillan  7:43  Are you doing this at the juice stage, we're doing this just after fermentation. During aging?   Andreea Botezatu  7:48  We are doing this at the juice stage, from everything that I've heard in the industry, it is better to have it done at the juice stage, it has less impact on the final wine quality, but it's gentler, so yes, at all the treatments that we're doing, we're doing them at the juice stage and then fermentation follows sterilization and everything else.   Craig Macmillan  8:08  What kind of quantity or ratio of verjus might we need is in liquid or by weight to get these kinds of impacts that we're after?   Andreea Botezatu  8:19  Right? So it depends on what we're trying to achieve. We asked that question with our study last year. So we had two treatments last year one to see how much verjus we needed to add to drop the pH by one point. So let's say you start at 3.6, we're gonna bring it down to 3.5. How much verjus do I need to add to achieve that and the other one, the other treatment was to target pH. So again, you start at 3.6, but you want to drop it to 3.3. We did both. And it turned out in our experiment that we needed to add 2% by volume verjus to drop the pH by one pH point. And then for the target pH we needed, we added about 10 to 11% verjus to get to the target we wanted. So you know it depends on what you're starting with the pH you're starting with a depends on the pH of your verjus. And that makes a big difference. We're working with lower pH verjus this year compared to last year. So that might change things a little but this is what we got so far between two and 10%. With a pH is that we worked with.   Craig Macmillan  9:24  If I remember correctly during that latter phase before verasion when we get past like lag phase or so what's happening with the reduction in acidity is that the malic acid is getting metabolized basically as an energy source tartaric may come down a little bit during that period, if I remember right, so if I am picking things early, like pre raisin, I'm assuming there's going to be a quite a bit of malic acid in that juice.   Andreea Botezatu  9:50  That's right. Yes.   Craig Macmillan  9:52  And is that going to affect what I do from winemaking perspective?   Andreea Botezatu  9:55  Well, for whites, very little for reds. I think it's absolutely a positive thing because most winemakers will want to put their reds through malolactic fermentation. And that's problematic. Now here with a high pH is because if you have a malolactic fermentation with a high pH wine, you can run into a million different problems and have really serious quality issues. So by adding this natural malic acid from the grapes, you allow then your winemakers to run their malolactic fermentations at a safe pH and get that effect of roundness and softness and all the sensory properties that come with it.   Craig Macmillan  10:34  Are there things that growers can do in the field, we're talking about the bears up, so the things that other things that we can do in the vineyard to help ameliorate some of these are things that people experimenting with, or winemakers are interested in having vineyard folks experiment with.   Andreea Botezatu  10:48  I mean, in the vineyard, there's only so much you can do once your vineyard has been planted. Water management is very important. And it helps a lot makes a big difference. Water stress can can have quite the impact on grape quality and Vine health as well. So water management is a big thing. And then canopy management is another one, you want to make sure that your grapes are a little bit shaded, they're not completely exposed to the sun, so you avoid sunburn and heat and light exposure. These are things that some grape growers can do. Some grape growers in Europe, as far as I know, plant grass coverings to reduce the evapotranspiration, the soil level to maintain water in the soil as well some modify their canopy structure, raise the trunk. So there are a few options. But I would say water management and canopy management are the most important ones. However, there is something that can be done and is actually being done actively in various parts of the world. As temperatures change. grape growers are changing the varieties that they're planting to adapt to these higher temperatures and different weather patterns. So they're looking at varieties that are a lot more heat tolerant. And that's a big change, that's a big change. And that's going to have a big impact.   Craig Macmillan  12:07  Just to go back for a second, when we talk about irrigation management, what you're talking about is not stressing the vines overly you want them to be happy,   Andreea Botezatu  12:14  You know, vines, like a little bit of stress. So but not as much as we see with these types of temperatures here. So yes. Keep them somewhat happy.   Craig Macmillan  12:25  So there's some things that we need, we need to stay on our game, basically in the vineyard - monitor, monitor your your evapotranspiration, and also the plants status and all that kind of thing. Because I have seen vines and heat, you know, basically collapse. Yes. And, you know, it's all the chemistry in the grape just goes nuts. They're like at the last minute, you know, and you're like, Oh, we're doing great and everything goes to heck. what Oh, what about shade cloth? Are people using shade cloth?   Andreea Botezatu  12:51  Yes. So the answer is yes, you can use that. And another thing that they are using this has nothing to do with temperature but rather hail they use hail netting to protect their vines from from hail.   Craig Macmillan  13:03  Oh, interesting. Interesting. I've heard about that in Europe, and I've never seen it in the United States.   Andreea Botezatu  13:07  Yeah, well come to Texas.   Craig Macmillan  13:08  I'm gonna I do I need to come to Texas. I got a friend there who's a bit of culture tonight. He keeps saying you gotta come check it out. You gotta come check it out.   Andreea Botezatu  13:14  Well, I feel sometimes that like we are the main lab for grape growing in the world, because we've we've already done all this work because it's hot here anyways. So we started this 20, 30 years ago. Like we can teach the world a thing or two about grape growing in hot climates, really.   Craig Macmillan  13:34  And that's a really good point is that there's resources in other parts of the United States or the parts of the world that that may apply to your world. If you're in a different region as your region changes, then I've definitely learned that over time, I will look out for other sources outside of California. I'm in California, I'm on the Central Coast, California, which has traditionally been a very cool area. And we're gonna see if that continues, which then leads back to your point. So changing varietals, or varieties, I should say changing varieties, what direction are people going in? What's the what are people thinking?   Andreea Botezatu  14:09  Right, So people are looking at heat tolerant varieties. And these two, again, both come from hotter regions, southern regions, so we're looking at Spain, southern Spain, Southern Italy, Greece, some of the Georgian varieties as well. Some seem to be doing quite well. I can give you some examples of varieties that we have in Texas,   Craig Macmillan  14:30  Please.   Andreea Botezatu  14:31  We've planted a lot of Tempranillo, Mouvedre, Vermentino, Aglianico, Montepulciano, Sagrantino does fantastic here Tannat. does very well here as well. Albarino on the wine, white side, I said Vermentino we have some Russanne and Marsanneare doing okay, but southern Italian Spanish Portuguese varieties are quite the stars.   Craig Macmillan  15:00  That's interesting, and how are how are winemakers feeling about this? I mean, are they excited? Are they? Are they having a great time? I mean, Tannat was a very exciting variety about 10 years ago and have made some really nice wines in California, are people getting into it? Are they excited about it?   Andreea Botezatu  15:15  So winemakers are very excited about all of that the problem is not the winemakers, it's the consumers who are not not familiar with these varietals, they don't have name recognition, so convincing the consumers to try them and buy them and come back for them that that is the main problem that we are having now. But I think we're making a lot of progress. And actually, some of my research is focused on that as well. So name recognition and pronunciation and comfort in purchasing or choosing a wine that's hard to pronounce and submitted an article for publication, or looking at that just today.   Craig Macmillan  15:49  Just today, timely as today's headlines. Well, I'll be looking for that I'll be looking forward to that yet to people, you know, people will have to be kind of familiar with it, you know, they have to kind of recognize it over time, I think that can can definitely happen. I mean, I was thinking about SSangiovese  in the United States, I'm thinking about Syrah, even in the United States, that was one that wasn't that labeled that much 30 years ago. And now we've got a whole fan base nationwide for that variety. And so maybe that same kind of thing will happen. And I hope so finding the plant for the place is huge, you know, and so if things are changing, we may want to think about finding different plants for that place.   Andreea Botezatu  16:25  I mean, look at Bordeaux, right? They Bordeaux, in France, they were approved to use six new varieties, which is extraordinary considering how long they only stuck with a traditional Bordeaux varieties. So now they are allowed to grow six new varieties, four reds and two white. So that's that's quite something. And that's not the only place where that is happening.   Craig Macmillan  16:47  Yeah, that's, that's very interesting. It will also be interesting to see if we have breeding plant breeding programs along these lines as well. That's an even harder road to hoe, because there's no history with it with a plant like that. But it's an interesting idea. I need to find a grower I need to find a plant breeder to talk to. So changing gears a little bit. There's something else that you've been working on that I'm really fascinated by. And that is Ladybug taint. And we are talking about the ladybug, we're talking about high sparrow.   Andreea Botezatu  17:14  Yeah, we're actually talking about ladybugs and this has been the subject of my PhD research and my postdoc work. So I've spent six, seven years looking at ladybugs and how they can affect wine quality. So for a little bit of background I have to start and be with some science. There is a group of compounds called methoxypyrazines that are naturally occurring in the world naturally occurring in plants. Many vegetables contain them bell peppers, for example, will have high levels of methoxypyrazines Peanuts, peas, green beans, some fruits contain them as well and grapes within a category of fruits, some grape varieties will naturally produce methoxypyrazines. These compounds smell like bell pepper in green beans like the vegetables that couldn't contain them. So at low quantities, low concentrations in grapes. These compounds methoxypyrazines can contribute to the paucity of the wine to complexity of the aroma profile and flavor profile of the wines. If however, these quantities increase, the concentrations increased, they can become overpowering and dominate the profile of the wine and you don't want your wine to smell like bell peppers and nothing else. Really, that's no fun. Another source of methoxypyrazines in the world is insects, in particular, lady beetles, ladybugs, and within the ladybugs category there are some species that are more apt at producing them but also infesting Vineyards, one of these species is called Harmonia axyridis, or the multicolored Asian lady beetle also known as MALB. Now this is a species that has been introduced into North America from Asia as a method of bio control against aphids in the 1960s mistaken and in time, it has established populations here and it has begun to spread so as the bio control method is very successful, it does what it's supposed to do but once the aphids are gone and the soybeans are picked harvested, then it looks for other sources of food and it can migrate into vineyards so these are the beetles will fly into vineyards they don't damage the grapes they don't bite into they don't want the grapes but they do feed on grapes that happen already open or cut for the sugar is you know is exposed in any way the flesh is exposed in anyways. And what happens is that if you pick the grapes with these lady beetles in them and you bring them into the winery with lady beetles in the menu, process them with lady beetles in these way they will also secrete something that's called hemolymph. It's basically their blood and this hemolymph will contain again Methoxypyrazines at quite high concentrations, these Methoxypyrazines get into wine, they tend to wine. So the wine will smell like bell pepper and green beans and potatoes and peanuts. And what's also interesting is that the ratio of these Methoxypyrazines is different in the hemolymph of lady beetles, as opposed to the ones naturally occurring in grapes. So there's one particular Methoxypyrazines , that's dominant in grapes, that's isobutyl Methoxypyrazines  IBMP, whereas in ladybugs, it's the isopropyl Methoxypyrazines , and that's dominating. And that can be also a method of diagnostic, you know, if you're looking at a wine that smells like that, and you're not sure, where did they come from, if IBMP is the dominant one, most likely there was a lady beetle infestation there, if IPMP is the highest one, and it's just the grape and weather conditions or whatnot.   Craig Macmillan  20:51  Arectheir control measures, cultural things are their chemical things in the vineyard. And then the subsequent then moving to the next step is what what can wineries do when the grapes come in? Can they inspect the fruit?   Andreea Botezatu  21:05  Absolutely. So in the vineyard, there are some sprays that can be applied to get rid of the lady beetles. However, you have to be careful as a grape grower with pre harvest interval there. SO2 has been tested as a spray in the vineyard against a lady beetles as well and used to be very effective, which you know, it's very helpful because it's SO2 we sprayed and it was already added anyway. So that helps to have some natural products natural essential oils that have been tested, they were shown to be quite effective at repelling lady beetles. And then there's the same yo chemical, the push pull traps. So you want to have compounds that repel the lady beetles in the middle of your vineyard, and then compounds that attract the lady beetles outside of your vineyard. So it's a push pull system. That's what can be done in the vineyard. And then once grapes are harvested on the winery side, we need to make sure if we are aware that there was a lady beetle presence in the vineyard, we want to make sure we sort our grapes, very, very careful. I mean, it doesn't take much to taint the wine one lady beetle per kilogram of grapes is more than enough. So you got to be very careful when sorting to make sure we get rid of all lady beetles. And also what's important to remember is that even dead lady beetles can taint the wine. So even if you spray them kill them, if they're still coming in, they still have the potential to taint the wine. And that's one thing that's the first step that you can do as a winemaker, if still after that you have an issue with Ladybug tainting your wine, there are some things you can do. They're not extremely effective. So juice clarification has been shown to help a lot. Thermo vinification has been shown to help actually one very good method at reducing pyrazine levels in wine is Flash détente. That is very, very successful. And we have that here in Texas. And we have some wineries that use Flash détente are not necessarily for methoxy partisans for other purposes as well. But very successful at doing that. Some refinding treatments more or less successful. In my research, I looked at my plastic polymers and silicone and they worked, but you need to find a form of application to apply them industrial, you know, commercially. So right now we're not there yet.   Craig Macmillan  23:20  And these techniques were wondering would apply to both red and white wines.   Andreea Botezatu  23:24  Well, fining is more difficult with reds because of the loss of color. So it's easier with whites, but Flash détente on the other hand is better with reds than with whites. So thermo identification Flash détente would be better suited for it.   Craig Macmillan  23:38  In your experience. Do you think you're seeing an increase in Ladybug infestation? And is that possibly tied to the changes in climate?   Andreea Botezatu  23:46  Well, yes, we see a change in patterns. I don't know if necessarily an increase they seem to be moving from certain places and arriving in other places. So places that didn't used to have ladybugs have them now and then they move out certain areas. So yeah, there's a shift so people need to know about them. grape growers need to be aware of this problem and monitor their vineyards for ladybugs, you know, you don't think about it. They're cute little things and people seem to like them, oh, they're just ladybugs, but they can be quite quite detrimental, especially in particular species, which is quite easy to identify it has that M on the pronoun. So very easy to spot and to be aware of. So yes, grape growers need to keep an eye out for lady beetles in places where maybe they never used to have them before. Just something to be aware of.   Craig Macmillan  24:39  If we're talking about one particular species, is this an issue with other species in the order of Coleoptera?   Andreea Botezatu  24:47  To a much lesser extent, this one is worst one Coccinella septempunctata the seven beetle can summon spot beetle can also taint wines but we just don't see them in vineyards as much they're not as much of an issue as Harmonia.   Craig Macmillan  25:01  Interesting, we're getting close to our time here on both topics. Let's start with climate winemaking. And then let's talk about lady beetle. What is one thing that you would tell growers or winemakers regarding that topic and let's start with, with the warm wine.   Andreea Botezatu  25:17  Growers, I would advise them to choose their varieties carefully. When they initiate a vineyard when they start on the plan of vineyard and be very careful about their water treatment. To winemakers, I would say focus on pH rather than sugars focus on acidity. And also for those winemakers who look at malolactic fermentation in red as a given, I would urge them to reconsider. I personally don't see a reason why malolactic fermentation has to happen, especially if you have issues with acidity, it doesn't always benefit the wines. So and there are there are options out there to inhibit malolactic fermentation if you choose to do so there are several compounds that can help with that and help stabilize the wines from from that perspective. So I really, really encourage winemakers so at least think about that, start considering that as an option. Maybe start experimenting, you know, small amounts not necessarily go full on on not running malolactics, but start slow and see how it goes and see how that affects or changes the wine quality and wine stability.   Craig Macmillan  26:23  What about the lady beetle? What's the one thing you would tell both growers and winemakers about the lady bettle.   Andreea Botezatu  26:28  Do your best that so that it doesn't get into winery it's much easier to prevent than to fix the wines. So be very, very careful in the vineyard. Watch out for ladybugs and take them seriously if you see them.   Craig Macmillan  26:43  Action, early, early action, I think it was under chilled shift the closer to the crusher and the farther from the bottle you can fix a problem the more success you'll be. Well it looks like no farther from the crusher ahead of time. And closer to the crusher, after the crusher might be the solution. Where can people find out more about you?   Andreea Botezatu  27:04  Oh, I can share links to my Texas A&M page, my YouTube page. I have a YouTube channel where I post I have several different playlists where I post different videos related to enology wine quality, I can share with you the links to my peer reviewed papers on ladybug taint and pH management so they can find them on your website.   Craig Macmillan  27:27  That would be great. Yeah, but at least things will be on the show page. As always. Folks, I want to thank you for being on on the podcast. Our guest today was Andrea Botezatu. She's Associate Professor and extension technology specialist with Texas a&m University, Texas AgriLife service. This has been very enlightening. I think a lot of us are thinking about this, especially places that have been growing Pinot Noir and Chardonnay for a long time. A lot of people are thinking about this.   Andreea Botezatu  27:52  Well, you're welcome. And it was a pleasure being here. I just want to finish if I may with an observation that I had winemakers and grape growers from California contacting me about verjus research so they're very excited about that. I'm glad that we are getting to talk about this and maybe more people will hear about this and start thinking about about these options.   Craig Macmillan  28:15  Absolutely. Absolutely.   Transcribed by https://otter.ai Nearly Perfect Transcription by https://otter.ai

The Indonesia analyst for the Helsinki-based NGO Crea joins the Reformasi Dispatch podcast to cut through the haze concerning the world's worst smog.  We examine SO2, NOx and 2.5ug particulates in Jakarta's 'airshed' and consider the urgency of revamping regulations on coal.  While the issue pits coal-related interests against considerations of public health -- and official pronouncements tend to defend coal while faulting the transportation sector -- we ask where policymakers' priorities actually lie.  Also in this episode: Ganjar catches up in polls and Golkar's former chair wins early release from prison.Get our special episode on the 4th Presidential Debate on:https://www.buymeacoffee.com/reformasi/extrasSupport us on buymeacoffee.com/reformasi

Welcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: marine cloud brightening, published by bhauth on August 10, 2023 on LessWrong. Various geoengineering schemes have been proposed to mitigate global warming. Some prominent schemes I don't like are accelerated weathering and stratospheric aerosol injection. I think marine cloud brightening is a better proposal than those. accelerated weathering To potentially absorb 1 ton of CO2, at least 2.3 tons of pure Mg silicate would be needed. Realistically speaking, "ore" won't be pure or react completely, so 3:1 is a more realistic ratio. Based on the cost of gravel and the availability of olivine deposits, digging up and crushing olivine to gravel would be $20-30/ton. Over a reasonable period of time, olivine only reacts with CO2 in a thin layer on the surface. To get good reaction, it must be ground very finely, which costs money. I expect that to cost >$30/ton for a 4:1 olivine:CO2 ratio. Some trucking and loading is inevitable, and olivine must be spread somewhere. I expect that to cost >$5/ton. 4($25 + $30 + $5) = $240/ton CO2. That is much too expensive. If that cost was closer to viability I'd have spent more effort estimating it, but it's not worthwhile. aerosol injection Stratospheric aerosol injection proposals typically involve using special aircraft to spray SO2 at high altitudes. That oxidizes to sulfuric acid which forms small water droplets which reflect some light. Here are the reasons I don't like it very much: At high altitude, SO2 and sulfate anions in droplets deplete the ozone layer. Particle coalescence at relatively high concentrations is still unclear, and I believe it's greater than estimates used by proponents of stratospheric aerosol injection. The requisite sulfur release that proponents estimate would be comparable to current human sulfur emissions, which causes some issues such as slight acidification. The high-altitude particles would make the sky slightly white and hazy. The effects on regional weather are unclear and potentially negative. Unexpected types of negative effects are possible. If negative effects are worse than expected, it can't be reversed. Implementation would require development of a new type of aircraft, capable of efficiently carrying liquids to much higher altitudes than most aircraft fly at. At such high altitudes, air is much thinner, which affects lift and engine requirements proportionately. Development and tooling for even more-normal aircraft is very expensive; eg the Boeing 787 cost $32B to develop. Sometimes I see people online saying "OBVIOUSLY WE SHOULD SPRAY SULFUR IN AIR RIGHT NOW!!!" I understand that culture is determined by an equilibrium between different views and people feel obligated to place their "vote" if they have a strong opinion, but these days, polls are common and easy. That being the case, someone making such comments because they read some magazine article, not being aware of the above issues or even trying to investigate details - I think that's a net negative contribution. As a more-general phenomenon, that makes discussion online harder and bothers me somewhat because I think humans can do better. marine cloud brightening Marine cloud brightening involves ships spraying salty water from towers such that small salt particles are formed and are lifted by rising air. Those salt crystals then reflect some sunlight. I like this proposal better than accelerated weathering and stratospheric aerosol injection. Wood 2021 estimated the salt emission rate needed to approximately counteract current global warming at 50e9 ~ 70e9 kg/yr. I estimate costs at $80 ~ $600 / ton NaCl distributed, for $4e9 ~ $5e10 annual cost. 40~100nm salt particles are desirable for this. Producing such small salt particles is nontrivial, and economically feasible sprayer systems for this do not currently exist. Two proposed app...

Link to original articleWelcome to The Nonlinear Library, where we use Text-to-Speech software to convert the best writing from the Rationalist and EA communities into audio. This is: marine cloud brightening, published by bhauth on August 10, 2023 on LessWrong. Various geoengineering schemes have been proposed to mitigate global warming. Some prominent schemes I don't like are accelerated weathering and stratospheric aerosol injection. I think marine cloud brightening is a better proposal than those. accelerated weathering To potentially absorb 1 ton of CO2, at least 2.3 tons of pure Mg silicate would be needed. Realistically speaking, "ore" won't be pure or react completely, so 3:1 is a more realistic ratio. Based on the cost of gravel and the availability of olivine deposits, digging up and crushing olivine to gravel would be $20-30/ton. Over a reasonable period of time, olivine only reacts with CO2 in a thin layer on the surface. To get good reaction, it must be ground very finely, which costs money. I expect that to cost >$30/ton for a 4:1 olivine:CO2 ratio. Some trucking and loading is inevitable, and olivine must be spread somewhere. I expect that to cost >$5/ton. 4($25 + $30 + $5) = $240/ton CO2. That is much too expensive. If that cost was closer to viability I'd have spent more effort estimating it, but it's not worthwhile. aerosol injection Stratospheric aerosol injection proposals typically involve using special aircraft to spray SO2 at high altitudes. That oxidizes to sulfuric acid which forms small water droplets which reflect some light. Here are the reasons I don't like it very much: At high altitude, SO2 and sulfate anions in droplets deplete the ozone layer. Particle coalescence at relatively high concentrations is still unclear, and I believe it's greater than estimates used by proponents of stratospheric aerosol injection. The requisite sulfur release that proponents estimate would be comparable to current human sulfur emissions, which causes some issues such as slight acidification. The high-altitude particles would make the sky slightly white and hazy. The effects on regional weather are unclear and potentially negative. Unexpected types of negative effects are possible. If negative effects are worse than expected, it can't be reversed. Implementation would require development of a new type of aircraft, capable of efficiently carrying liquids to much higher altitudes than most aircraft fly at. At such high altitudes, air is much thinner, which affects lift and engine requirements proportionately. Development and tooling for even more-normal aircraft is very expensive; eg the Boeing 787 cost $32B to develop. Sometimes I see people online saying "OBVIOUSLY WE SHOULD SPRAY SULFUR IN AIR RIGHT NOW!!!" I understand that culture is determined by an equilibrium between different views and people feel obligated to place their "vote" if they have a strong opinion, but these days, polls are common and easy. That being the case, someone making such comments because they read some magazine article, not being aware of the above issues or even trying to investigate details - I think that's a net negative contribution. As a more-general phenomenon, that makes discussion online harder and bothers me somewhat because I think humans can do better. marine cloud brightening Marine cloud brightening involves ships spraying salty water from towers such that small salt particles are formed and are lifted by rising air. Those salt crystals then reflect some sunlight. I like this proposal better than accelerated weathering and stratospheric aerosol injection. Wood 2021 estimated the salt emission rate needed to approximately counteract current global warming at 50e9 ~ 70e9 kg/yr. I estimate costs at $80 ~ $600 / ton NaCl distributed, for $4e9 ~ $5e10 annual cost. 40~100nm salt particles are desirable for this. Producing such small salt particles is nontrivial, and economically feasible sprayer systems for this do not currently exist. Two proposed app...

Camins 2 Dreams represents the routes and paths we follow to achieve our dreams. Camins 2 Dreams was founded in 2017. Our grapes are sourced from vineyards in Santa Barbara County with a focus in Sta. Rita Hills. Our philosophy is to make handcrafted, terroir-driven wines that are fermented with natural yeast and use minimal intervention in the winery, with only minimum amounts of SO2 at bottling. Our wines are also all unfined and unfiltered. We believe wine is made in the vineyard and we want to showcase the typicity of each site where the grapes come from. We source fruit from vineyards that share in the same values of respect for the land and their workers and works exclusively with organic, biodynamic, and SIP Certified vineyards with the goal for the next 2 years to purchase fruit from only organic, biodynamic or regenerative farming vineyards. We are a team of two winemakers, Mireia Taribó and Tara Gomez, wife and wife, whose paths first crossed in 2006 through our work in the wine industry. Our friendship grew through wine and travels, which also sparked our love. Our journey of friendship, love, and wine now continues as together we found our dream winery, Camins 2 Dreams.

While The Drive is on Summer vacation, and so is California Wine Country, there is no new show this week, so here is an episode of another wine show from The Drive, called Off the Vine, sponsored by our friends at Sonoma County Winegrowers, which originally aired on January 25, 2023. Cheers! Steve Jaxon and Harry Duke present this episode of Off the Vine along with Sonoma County Winegrowers President Karissa Kruse, who has invited Erik Miller from Kokomo Wines, as her guest. Erik Miller has also been a guest on California Wine Country, on an episode recorded on March 13, 2019 which we repeated on the podcast just last week. Erik is the owner and winemaker of Kokomo Wines, which he started in 2004. He named it after his hometown of Komomo, Indiana. Karissa Kruse tells the story of when she met Erik and how she knew his wines before she met him. Click the logo to visit our sponsor Bottle Barn online for the coolest bargains on wine, beer and spirits. Kokomo Wines is located in Dry Creek Valley. Erik describes how 2004 was a different world, for wine. He sold his first two vintages entirely in his home state of Indiana. He attended Purdue University and there is Kokomo memorabilia in the winery. How young is that Rosé? They are tasting a 2022 Rosé that was bottled yesterday. The color is a light salmon pink. It is made with Grenache and he does not leave the skins in for very long because he likes the light color. It is crisp and dry, "delightful," says Harry Duke. Rosés can be good after a year in the bottle, but the market likes Rosés that are of the current year. It won Best Wine in the North Coast wine competition, which put them on the map. Kokomo Winery is open 7 days a week from 11am-4pm, at 4791 Dry Creek Road in Healdsburg. It is up on the hill on Dry Creek Road. The decor reflects Kokomo as a blue collar town. He is starting a pop-up in their barrel rook, called Breaking Bread, a new and different style of wine. It is about being with friends and sharing food and wine. He brought a pet nat, which in French is short for petillante naturelle, the ancient way of making sparkling wine. This is made with old vine Dry Creek Zinfandel. He adds nothing to it, so it could be called a natural wine. For example, they do not add sulphur dioxide (SO2) when they bring in the grapes, they don't add yeast or any nutrients for fermentation. Since it uses natural yeast, it doesn't need a lot of human intervention. They bottle it before it finishes fermenting, which builds pressure inside the bottle. It retails for $28. Erik says this really shows the versatility of Zinfandel, because you can make it into a "big peppery red" or a Rosé.  They also make a red Zin under the Breaking Bread label, which also follows traditional simplistic ways. It makes for a lighter style than most Zins. When Erik started Breaking Bread, he asked Goguette Bread to make baguettes shaped like wine bottles.

Petrochemicals and energy company Sasol has advised that it will appeal the National Air Quality Officer's decision to decline its June 2022 application in terms of Clause 12A of the minimum emission standards (MES). The application related to the regulation of the sulphur dioxide (SO2) emissions from the boilers at Sasol's Secunda Operations' steam plants on alternative emission load basis from April 1, 2025, onwards. Sasol's emission sources are regulated in accordance with atmospheric emission licences, which are based on the MES of November 2013, which are published as a section of the National Environmental Management: Air Quality Act (Nemaqa). Sasol confirms it will appeal the decision to the Minister of Forestry, Fisheries and the Environment, to allow the Minister to consider the application afresh. Clause 12A of the MES permits existing plants to be regulated on an alternative emission load, as opposed to the current concentrated-based limit specified in the MES, which is according to the mass of pollutant per cubic metre of air emitted. Sasol has been implementing various projects at its Secunda, Sasolburg and Natref operations since 2015 in efforts to reduce emissions to comply with the MES. The company has spent more than R7-billion over the last five years, in particular, on emission reduction projects. Sasol explains that it has achieved MES compliance of 98% of its emission sources at these sites; however, the remaining 2% of sources are part of the company's ongoing journey to enable MES compliance by April 1, 2025. The only remaining challenge relates to achieving the concentration-based limit for SO2 emissions from the boilers at the Secunda Operations' steam plants. Sasol has determined that an integrated emission reduction roadmap, which intends to deliver emissions reductions in terms of both greenhouse-gas emissions, SO2 and other pollutants, is the optimal approach and best aligned with the objectives of Nemaqa and the purpose of the MES. This involves the turning down of boilers, reducing coal use and ramping up Sasol's imports of renewable energy to 1 200 MW by 2030. Sasol has already seen a reduction in emissions through the implementation of energy efficiency projects and is progressing the deployment of more than half of the committed renewable energy target from 2025 onwards. The company outlines in its Climate Change Report 2022 that among its efforts will also be to undertake boiler turndown, in efforts to reduce some of its emissions at Secunda. Sasol remains committed to ambient air quality improvement, it says, including reaching net-zero emissions by 2050. OPPOSING VIEW Nonprofit organisation Just Share in December last year said Sasol's Secunda facility, as well as the Natref refinery - a joint venture between Sasol and TotalEnergies - are among the most pollutive operations in Mpumalanga and the country. The area in which the operations are located, the Highveld Priority Area, is one of the worst air pollution hotspots globally. Nema designated the area as such, owing to its dangerous levels of air pollution. The High Court in March 2022 recognised that the poor air quality in the areas was a breach of residents' constitutional right to an environment that is not harmful to their health, and suggested that the Minister have regard to various considerations, including the need to address the postponement and suspension of compliance with MES in the priority area. The court also recommended that the atmospheric emission licences of all facilities have not obtained once-off suspension of compliance and cannot meet new plant MES by April 2025 are withdrawn and decommissioning and rehabilitation of those facilitates then needs to be enforced. Just Share believes Sasol, despite its participation in the process of setting the MES, has fought vigorously to avoid having to comply with these laws, including through an initial application to be completely exempt from the MES and subsequent complian...

Civil society groups have lodged their appeal against a decision granting Eskom a temporary exemption to bypass pollution controls at Kusile. The exemption allows Eskom to run Kusile without flue gas desulphurisation (FGD), which is required to reduce sulphur dioxide emissions. Eskom had applied for the exemption following the collapse of a flue gas duct at Kusile's unit 1 last year, owing to ash buildup inside the pipe. This affected the operations of units 2 and 3 - which meant Eskom lost about 2 100MW of generation capacity, or two stages of load shedding. The exemption, granted by the Department of Forestry, Fisheries and Environment's (DFFE) National Air Quality Office, would effectively allow Eskom to return the units into operation earlier than if the flue duct first had to be repaired. The exemption applies until 31 March 2025. The Vukani Environmental Justice Movement in Action and groundWork, which are represented by the Centre for Environmental Rights (CER), are appealing this decision, they said in a joint statement on Thursday. The organisations said that they understand the concerns about load shedding and the impacts on the economy and livelihoods. However, they have questioned whether Eskom and the National Air Quality Officer had "adequately" evaluated the proposal to run Kusile without FGD - given its consequences for health as well as the costs. "The costs of the permanent repair to the failed stack are not being disclosed by Eskom, making a sound cost-benefit assessment by interested and affected parties impossible," the groups put forward. Sulphur dioxide pollution is associated with respiratory illnesses such as asthma and bronchitis. Research by the Centre for Research into Energy and Clean Air (CREA) has also highlighted that if Kusile were to run without FGD it would significantly increase sulphur dioxide and mercury emissions that would affect health and cause hundreds of deaths: In addition to the sixfold increase in SO2 emissions (an excess of 280 000 tonnes), bypassing the FGD will also see a 40% increase in the emission of mercury - a potent neurotoxin which persists in the environment for years. "The increased emissions from Kusile are projected to result in 670 excess deaths, 3 000 asthma emergency room visits, 720 000 days of work absence and a societal costs of health impacts to the tune of up to R24-billion," the CER said, citing CREA's research. A 2021 data analysis by CREA also found Eskom to be the world's worst sulphur dioxide polluter. The exemption is subject to the condition that Eskom take steps to mitigate the harm caused by exposure to sulphur dioxide, but the groups have criticised these as being weak. For example, Eskom is required to have independent health screenings and refer people to "appropriate" public health facilities for treatment. But the groups want a more proactive approach - such as the introduction of mobile clinics, a health management outreach programme, chronic treatment and improved air quality monitoring and installing filtration systems at schools and public buildings. "The mitigation measures required of Eskom are weak and general, and there are concerns about how effective they will be. As things currently stand, public health facilities in the area are woefully underequipped to deal with the air quality-induced crisis in the region," said Ntombi Maphosa, CER attorney. "We are expecting hundreds of people to sacrifice their lives and thousands more to experience disabilities because of our poor energy choices. This is unconscionable. We need to shift to renewable energy as a matter of utmost urgency," added Michelle Cruywagen, senior just transition and coal campaign manager, groundWork.

This episode features Clark Smith, who is a winemaker, author, wine technology innovator, and winemaking instructor. Our conversation in this episode covers Clark's background in winemaking, the development of Vinovation, alcohol adjustment in wines, micro-oxygenation, the enology courses he used to teach at UC Davis, making wine without SO2, his book Postmodern Winemaking, what modern and postmodern winemaking entail, and his video course: Fundamentals of Winemaking Made Easy.

Rex Bear from Leak Project and David DuByne from ADAPT 2030 discuss the Tonga volcano water vapor eruption, amplified by the spread of sulfur dioxide particles from the recent Shiveluch & Sangay ejecta to 50-70,000 feet. SO2 in the atmosphere is being drawn up through atmospheric circulation to the polar easterlies and could have unexpected effects on the planet's ice and precipitation patterns. This could lead to significant disruptions in the atmosphere and a global food shortage, which could lead into a way to implement digital rationing cards and central bank digital currency.   Thank You for Visiting my Sponsors: Free Sustainability Course from The Grow Network ADAPT 2030 (PATREON) 25 Year Shelf Life Storable Foods Hemplucid True Leaf Market Heirloom and Organic Seeds ADAPT 2030 AMAZON SHOP  

Time management vs TASK MANAGEMENT  There is no such thing as Time Management even though we hear this repeatedly. We all have twenty four hours in our days.  The TASKS - our ACTIONS - are what leads us to completion ..reachung our goals, achieving success.Trying to manage the clock, is similar to managing the  moon phases, the sun, the stars.  Here's an example:  I recently took a class from Julie Hood of Course creator HQ, the primo instructor of online courses.  ( Thanks to her course instruction, I have my online class teaching people how to overcome their fear of public speaking). She has a twenty year process that she developed called TLC. The idea is that whatever company, product, idea we are selling, these three TASKS will lead to greater results. Check out the podcast to hear more. “ ONLY 4 Systems That You Need “ https://imonline.samcart.com/referral/4systems/mP9iBKaKULc8ktmx Course Creator Podcast https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/course-creators-hq-all-about-online-courses/id1527271678?i=1000599589335   Kundalini yoga - I am devoting this space to the SOOTHE OUR SOULS fundraising and their new WELLNESS CENTER in Treasure island. They provide every kind of Wellness class, activities and events imaginable.   Every class that you attend helps support Soothe Our Souls CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y2UrgM4P1XkUZv-12b1tA1H9BrxjdR78/view?usp=drivesdk CLICK HERE FOR WELLNESS CENTER SCHEDULE  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y2UrgM4P1XkUZv-12b1tA1H9BrxjdR78/view?usp=drivesdk   WINE Myths and Trends the articles : https://daily.sevenfifty.com/using-alternative-yeasts-to-replace-sulfites-in-wines/ Sulfite sensitivity affects about 1% of the population. Wine usually has about 150 ppm of sulfur added whereas dried fruit has 1000 ppm. Sulfites are used to kill unwanted bacteria and yeasts in the winemaking process. Since 1987, American producers have been required to mention the presence of sulfur if it exceeds 10 parts per million (ppm) in the finished wine. The EU recently passed a similar labeling law in 2005. The laws are designed to help protect the small percentage of people who are sensitive to sulfur and should not be confused with the myth that sulfites in wine can give you a wine headache. It's easy to understand why sulfite additions are such a basic tool of winemaking. Sulfur dioxide (SO2, also commonly referred to as sulfites) is an effective antibacterial and antioxidant agent in wine, and sulfur-based products are also effective against fungal diseases and other pests in the vineyard. However, using sulfites is far from neutral: they have wide-ranging effects on the chemistry of wine. Just to name a few issues, they can cause potential reductive issues and affect fruity aromatics, they can cause color bleaching, and they're also irritating for workers who deal with fairly high amounts during winemaking operations. Also, beyond the often-exaggerated concerns about headaches and other issues for wine drinkers, the trend towards natural wine has given them a bad rap.   My Favorite Things  Vahail1956@gmail.com FEAR OF PUBLIC SPEAKING: kick those thoughts to the curb MINICOURSE created by Valerie Hail. Choose one class $57  Six classes $237 Here's a quick video that is the introduction and first lesson. There is a free lesson in the video. People can choose one lesson or six consecutive lessons  http://bit.ly/3Z6R6Cp Masterclass to create your online course by Julie Hood Is your Course idea any good FREE TEST https://imonline.samcart.com/referral/idea/mP9iBKaKULc8ktmx www.chezvalerie.us

We're bringing you a special crossover episode this week from Catalyst's sister podcast, The Carbon Copy. It's about a rogue startup that was trying to do something we've talked about on this show: solar geoengineering.  Last year, Time staff writer Alejandro de la Garza found himself on the floor of a hotel room in Nevada with two guys trying to cook sulfur dioxide out of a tin can.  Luke Iseman and Andrew Song are the co-founders of Make Sunsets, a startup claiming to be implementing solar geoengineering by launching weather balloons filled with SO2 into the stratosphere. Their first experimental launch in the Mexican state of Baja California resulted in a swift regulatory response from the Mexican government. But when they ran another test launch a few weeks ago just outside of Reno, Nevada, Luke invited Alejandro to join them.  This week, we speak with Alejandro about his Time profile of the controversial startup. Plus, we talk with geoengineering experts Holly Buck and Kevin Surprise. “Any single person you talk to in solar geoengineering research, whether they're bullish or against it, they all think that what Make Sunsets is doing is a bad idea,” explains Alejandro. Make Sunsets represents a turning point for the field of geoengineering, with rogue actors pushing the field from academic debate into the real world. Is the company's recent balloon launch an act of performance art — or an open door to an uncontrolled climate experiment? Recommended Resources: Time: Exclusive: Inside a Controversial Startup's Risky Attempt to Control Our Climate The Guardian: Solar geoengineering could be ‘remarkably inexpensive' – report MIT Technology Review: This technology could alter the entire planet. These groups want every nation to have a say. US Geological Survey: The Atmospheric Impact of the 1991 Mount Pinatubo Eruption Catalyst: Solar geoengineering: Is it worth the risk? Catalyst is a co-production of Post Script Media and Canary Media. Support for Catalyst comes from Climate Positive, a podcast by HASI, that features candid conversations with the leaders, innovators, and changemakers who are at the forefront of the transition to a sustainable economy. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Catalyst is supported by Scale Microgrids, the distributed energy company dedicated to transforming the way modern energy infrastructure is designed, constructed, and financed. Distributed generation can be complex. Scale makes it easy. Learn more: scalemicrogrids.com.

Various options are at play in the EPA's planned greenhouse gas standards for new and existing power plants. In this episode, Lissa Lynch of NRDC discusses the implications.(PDF transcript)(Active transcript)Text transcript:David RobertsA couple of weeks ago, the policy analysts at the Rhodium Group put out a new report showing that the Biden administration's legislative achievements are not quite enough to get it to its Paris climate goals. But those goals could be reached if the legislation is supplemented with smart executive action.Some of the most important upcoming executive actions are EPA's greenhouse gas standards for new and existing power plants. The Supreme Court famously struck down Obama's Clean Power Plan — his attempt to address existing power plants — judging it impermissibly expansive. So now EPA has to figure out what to ask of individual plants.The agency's decisions will help shape the future of the US power sector and determine whether the Biden administration gets on track for its climate goals. To talk through those decisions in more detail, I contacted Lissa Lynch, who runs the Federal Legal Group at the NRDC's Climate & Clean Energy Program. We discussed the options before the EPA, the viability of carbon capture and hydrogen as systems of pollution reduction, and whether Biden will have time to complete all the regulatory work that remains.Alright. With no further ado, Lissa Lynch from NRDC. Welcome to Volts. Thank you so much for coming.Lissa LynchThank you for having me.David RobertsThis is a subject that I used to spend a lot of time thinking about back in the day, and it's sort of receded for a while, and now it's back. So it's very exciting for a nerd like me. So I want to just quickly walk through some history with this and then sort of hand it off to you so you can tell us where things stand now, because I don't want to assume that listeners have been obsessively following this now nearly two decade long saga. So let me just run through some history really briefly. So listeners will recall in 2007, there's a big Supreme Court case, Massachusetts vs. EPA, in which the Supreme Court ruled that CO2 is eligible to be listed as a pollutant under the Clean Air Act if EPA determines it is a threat to human health.And then shortly thereafter, Obama's EPA officially determined that it is a threat to human health via the endangerment finding. So this is one thing I'm not sure everybody understands, and I just want to get it on the table up front. So for context, the combination of those two things, Mass vs. EPA, plus the endangerment finding, means that EPA is lawfully obliged to regulate greenhouse gases. This is not a choice. This is not something it can do or not do, depending on how it feels or who's president. They have to do it. So then that triggers the obligation, three separate obligations.You have to regulate mobile sources, which Obama did with his new fuel economy regulations, which are still in place, as far as I know. Then you have to regulate new stationary sources of greenhouse gases, which Obama did. And as far as I know, we can come back to this in a second, but as far as I know, those new power plant regulations that Obama passed are still in effect. And then thirdly, you have to regulate existing stationary sources of greenhouse gases, which mainly means power plants. And so Obama's effort to regulate existing power plants is called the Clean Power Plan.People may remember the fuss and ado about the Clean Power Plan as it was under development. Lawsuits were immediately launched. Of course, the Supreme Court took the extremely unusual step of putting the law on hold, basically not letting it go into implementation until it had heard this case. And then it heard the case, rejected the Clean Power Plan on the basis of the newly dreamed up, rectally, extracted Major Questions Doctrine. So that's where we stand now is we've got the mobile regs in place, although Biden is updating those too. I think we've got the new power plant regs in place, although Biden is also updating those.But as for existing power plant regulations, there are basically none. It's been a legal mire and so Biden's got to do those too. So let's talk about what Supreme Court said about the Clean Power Plan in their ruling and how that constrains the sort of solution space that we're looking at now.Lissa LynchSo in West Virginia vs. EPA, that was the Supreme Court decision from last summer. The Supreme Court held that this section of the Clean Air Act that we're talking about here, section 111, does not clearly provide authority for the approach that EPA took in the Clean Power Plan. And what they did there we sort of refer to as generation shifting. In the Clean Power Plan, EPA looked at the power sector as a whole and they concluded that the best system for reducing fossil-fuel-fired power plant emissions was a combination of measures including shifting generation away from dirtier fossil power toward cleaner power.So essentially retiring dirtier power plants and replacing them with renewables.David RobertsRight. So the unit of analysis here was a state's whole power fleet, not the power plant individual, but the whole power fleet.Lissa LynchRight. And the reasoning for that in the Clean Power Plan context was supported by the companies themselves, the power companies themselves and the states who said, yes, this is the way that we are dealing with decarbonizing our fleets. We are looking out across our whole fleets, retiring the dirtiest sources and replacing them with cleaner generation. That's how the existing RGGI program in California cap-and-trade programs work. That's how many of the power companies that have emission reduction or clean energy targets are doing that.David RobertsAnd let's just say Republicans have been saying for decades that regulations are too restrictive and they're not flexible enough and states and power companies need flexibility. And this was perfectly flexible. This is absolutely as flexible as you could make a system. It just said to the state, do whatever you want to do to lower the average emissions of your power plant fleet. And then conservatives got what they wanted and hated it for other reasons.Lissa LynchOne of the things that's important about what is left on the table after this decision is there is still a considerable amount of flexibility on the compliance side. So what the Supreme Court was really dealing with was the method EPA uses for setting the level of the standard, basically setting the target that industry has to meet. So the Supreme Court explicitly took that generation shifting approach off the table for purposes of setting the level of the standard itself. And so after this decision, EPA can still set standards, in John Roberts words, "Based on the application of measures that would reduce pollution by causing the regulated source to operate more cleanly."David RobertsRight? So the idea here is EPA, by interpreting the Clean Air Act in such a way as to apply to the power plant fleet overall, and sort of telling states how they have to shape their overall power plant fleets. EPA was assuming too much authority, basically. Like doing something major, despite too major for the words in the Clean Air Act, which I don't want to dwell on this too long, but let's just pause here to acknowledge that. No one then in the ruling, now in the subsequent ruling, since then in all scholarship knows what the hell "major" means or when it is that an agency has crossed the line from proper regulatory interpretation into "Oops, too major."It really just kind of sounds like and seems that major means anything bigger than John Roberts is comfortable with.Lissa LynchRight? I mean, this is one of the really concerning things about the Major Questions Doctrine, just generally is that it is murky and it does have this sort of paralyzing effect on ...David RobertsYes, intentionally.Lissa LynchExactly. It is explicitly anti-regulatory and explicitly sort of intended to stop agencies in their tracks and make them question, oh, is this too major?David RobertsAnd there's no answer. Right. So naturally you're going to be cautious because there's no definition of major. It's just whatever irritates John Roberts when he wakes up one day. So this was the opening salvo, I think, in a longer Supreme Court effort basically to brow-beat agencies into being timid. So anyway, point being EPA can't use the overall power fleet as a sort of benchmark through which to set this standard. So what does that leave? What's the sort of range of motion that we think we still can act in here when we're talking about these new standards?Lissa LynchSo now that we have this Supreme Court decision in place. EPA's got some guidelines, and they can base the next round of standards on, as Justice Roberts put it, measures that make the plants operate more cleanly. So what they're looking for now is a rule that looks more like what traditional pollution regulations of the past looked like based on scrubbers, bag houses, the stuff that you can physically attach onto the plant or do at the plant itself to reduce that plant's emissions. When it comes to reducing CO2 emissions, the options are limited.David RobertsWell, let me pause there. Before we get into that, I just want to say one thing that I learned from your writing that I had not known, and I don't know that it's widely known. So there's been talk ever since Mass vs. EPA that bugged conservatives, and they would love to undo that, right? Because they would just love to moot this whole thing by undoing that ruling and saying that CO2 is outside the context of the Clean Air Act and have been muttering about doing that. So the Inflation Reduction Act statutorily locks into place that ruling.Right. It says explicitly CO2 qualifies under the Clean Air Act, and it instructs EPA to develop new standards. So there's no ambiguity about that. And it says EPA needs to set standards that are going to reduce emissions relative to baseline, where the new baseline is taking the Inflation Reduction Act itself and all its subsidies into account. So it's telling EPA calculate what all these subsidies are going to do, what the new sort of business as usual trajectory of emissions would be, and then develop regulations that reduce it further. I didn't know any of that.Lissa LynchYeah, no, this is huge. And I mean, obviously the Inflation Reduction Act is enormous. It is going to accelerate the clean energy progress that we've seen in the last decade or so by many fold. It is a huge, huge deal. And one of the provisions in this quite large law essentially reaffirms EPA's not only statutory authority, but its obligation to go ahead and set CO2 emission standards for fossil-fuel-fired power plants. And so that's a clear statement from Congress last year.David RobertsClear enough even for John Roberts.Lissa LynchRight. So we have always thought that that authority and obligation under the statute was quite clear, but now it's crystal clear, and they need to move.David RobertsAnd I think it's also important to absorb this new baseline idea, because the IRA itself and all the historical progress since the last round of these regs, the new expected baseline for power plant emissions is much lower now than it was when Oobama's EPA was calculating these things. Which commensurately means you're going to need tighter standards if you want to reduce further than that new baseline.Lissa LynchYeah. And it is kind of wild to look back on ten years ago. So it was ten years ago, 2013, that President Obama announced in his big climate change speech that he was directing his EPA to go ahead and set carbon pollution reduction standards under Section 111 for fossil-fuel-fired power plants. The first time that was being done. So much has changed in ten years in the power sector. And I think anyone listening to this podcast knows we are smack in the midst of a clean energy transition in the power industry. Industry itself says so.The Edison Electric Institute says we are, quote, "In the middle of a profound long term transformation in how energy is generated, transmitted and used." Lazard, the investment firm, estimates that wind costs have fallen by 46%, solar has fallen by 77% over the past decade. So we're just in a totally different world now than we were ten years ago. And so we passed the Clean Power Plan's 2030 emission reduction targets in 2019 without the Clean Power Plan ever having gone into effect.David RobertsWhich in retrospect makes all the Republican arguments about how this is an economy killing regulation and it's too strong and it's unrealistic and there's no way we can move that fast look utterly ludicrous, which we all said at the time, but we had to pretend that it was a real live argument. So they're saying it's too stringent, it's going to destroy the economy. And here we rocketed past it in 2019 without any regs.Lissa LynchRight? And that is part and parcel with each time. There are new ambitious pollution standards set ...David RobertsEvery time.Lissa LynchUnder the Clean Air Act, industry claims the sky is going to fall. This happened with the acid rain program back in the American Electric Power predicted that it was going to destroy the economy of the Midwest. Like the lights are going to go out, the sky is going to fall.Every time and we never learn. We never learn from those previous examples. It's crazy, right?And so the actual costs of complying with the acid rain program and reducing sulfur dioxide ended up being, I think, around a 10th of what industry had estimated. Sulfur scrubbers are now widely used. The program has been a great success. It is this great example of how we can set pollution standards and then innovate to meet them cost effectively and quicker than anyone expects. We do it over and over again.David RobertsOver and over again.Lissa LynchAnd we can do it in this context.David RobertsRight? One more thing. Before we get to what's available for the new standards, we should mention I should mention that when the clean power plant got shut down, the legal obligation to pass regulations on existing power plants then passed to the Trump administration, which did that sort of passed a ... what was it called? The clean America ...Lissa LynchThe Affordable, Clean Energy Plan.David RobertsYes, Affordable Clean Energy, the ACE Plan, which several analyses showed would on net have raised emissions in the power plant sector. So those got shut down in court, too. They were just completely a joke. Ludicrous so that's all the history. So here we are Biden's EPA has got to regulate existing power plants and new power plants. And it can't take this so called outside the fence line holistic approach that the clean power plant took. So it's got to set standards based on what you can do at the individual power plant level inside the fence line, as they say.So what are the options? Actually, I'm talking way too much, but let me get one more thing out of the way and then I'll let you talk. But one of the things that faced the reason I just want people to understand this too, the reason Obama took this approach, the reason Obama's EPA took this outside the fence line holistic approach, is that if you're just restricting yourself to the individual power plant, you're stuck with either marginal improvements, right? You get the boiler to work more efficiently, you tighten up efficiency, and you can sort of marginally 3% to 5%, reduce emissions.Or on the other side, there's carbon capture and sequestration, which especially ten years ago when Obama's EPA was contemplating it, was not very well tested, not very well proven, super expensive. So you either had sort of like a fly swatter or a nuke when it comes to the individual power plant, which is why they went with the holistic approach. So now the holistic approach is off the table. We're back to the fly swatter or nuke problem. So just tell us sort of like, what are the available options here?Lissa LynchYeah, so you kind of covered the two ends of the range, right? On one end, the very low ambition end, you can make minor improvements to the operating efficiency of the plant, the way the plant operates. That was the basis for the standards that the Trump administration issued. And as you noted, improving the efficiency of the plant makes it run better and it can be called upon to run more and therefore can end up increasing its overall emissions. That sort of rebound effect. That's a possibility. You can still reduce emissions through operating efficiency improvements. And I think there's more options that could achieve greater reductions than the ones that the Trump administration included in their rule.But still, we're talking the very low-end, single percentage reductions in the middle, there's this option of cofiring with a lower carbon fuel. So if you're talking about coal plants, you can co-fire that coal plant partially with gas. In a gas plant, you could co-fire partially with hydrogen and you're going to bring the emissions rate of the plant down somewhat. In some of our analysis, we've estimated that a 40% cofiring coal with gas. So cofiring a coal plant with 40% gas gets you about a 20% emission reduction. So it's not nothing, but it also involves additional fossil infrastructure to get gas to a coal plant or additional infrastructure to get hydrogen to a gas plant.And on top of several other issues with hydrogen that we can talk about a little later.David RobertsWell, a legal question, I guess all of this in some respect is arbitrary, but where is the line between forcing fuel-switching, which I think Supreme Court said was out of bounds, and too far, versus a rule that requires cofiring, which is like kind of like halfway to fuel switching? Is there a legal distinction there between those two?Lissa LynchThere's absolutely precedent for requiring cleaner fuels or fuel processes. What the Supreme Court mentioned, at least in dicta, was we don't want to see standards that would force a plant to stop existing. And so essentially, if EPA were to base the standard on total conversion from coal to gas, which some coal plants have undertaken with cheap gas prices, that I think, based on our reading of the decision anyway, would probably be too far. So full conversion probably off the table along with generation shifting. But partial cofiring is actually one of the technologies that the Obama administration considered for their Clean Power Plan, as was carbon capture.And as you noted, the approach that they took in the Clean Power Plan, they selected because it was the most cost effective. So they ruled out carbon capture and cofiring, not because they weren't adequately demonstrated or available, they were just more expensive than the approach that EPA ended up going with.David RobertsBut now we're forced back basically to that more expensive approach.Lissa LynchRight, as I mentioned before, but want to keep reiterating, this is all about setting the level of the standard, finding it's a math problem. EPA looks at the options, and so the options as we see them are efficiency improvements, getting very little cofiring, getting somewhere in the middle, or carbon capture and storage, getting the most amount of emission reductions. They look out at that and they select the best system. Then they apply it to the plant and essentially do a math problem and come out with a number, a numerical limit for the amount of CO2 emission reductions that the plants need to achieve.Then they hand the baton off to the states for existing sources and to the companies for new sources. So this is not a requirement to install that specific technology. It's a way to derive the level of the standard and then pass that off to the states and the companies to comply with.David RobertsRight. EPA sets the standard and then says to states and companies, do what you want.Lissa LynchRight, as long as you can meet this number. Be creative, innovate.David RobertsThe central question is what upon what technology is the number going to be based on exactly? This low-end, this something in the middle, and this high-end, which is carbon capture and sequestration. So here I want to talk about what the sort of arguments are around this. It says in the text of the Clean Air Act that EPA should set the standard based on the best available system. That has to be adequately demonstrated so I just want to dig in a little bit on the technical legal language here. Like what exactly or what have courts interpreted that language to mean exactly?What is required to be adequately demonstrated? A single demonstration plant somewhere? like some good charts and graphs in a lab? Or do you have to be commercial, or does price and, you know, financial viability come into that? Like, what is EPA thinking about when it thinks about what is adequately demonstrated or best?Lissa LynchYes. Okay, so I'm a Clean Air Act lawyer. This is my favorite part. I love the Clean Air Act, and I love to talk about the language of the statute because that's actually what we're really fighting over here. EPA is tasked with establishing the standard of performance, and so that definition is in the statute. They have to determine the degree of emission limitation that can be achieved through the application of the best system of emission reduction that is adequately demonstrated considering cost, energy factors and essentially other factors. And so there's this really defined set of criteria that EPA needs to go through as they're determining what's the best system of emission reduction.So we've been talking about adequately demonstrated that it can't be a made up technology, but it also doesn't have to be widely used by everyone. Already, the Clean Air Act is technology forcing it's forward looking.David RobertsRight.Lissa LynchIt requires the regulated source to reduce its emissions commensurate with the best control systems that are available, not the ones that are already sort of out there in use, that plants are choosing to use of their own accord. So again, in a lot of ways, this is analogous to so SO2 scrubbers which were not in widely used, they were not widely produced in the 90s, and there were all these doom and gloom predictions of how much it's going to cost.We're not going to be able to do this. So right now, there's no limit at all on CO2 emissions from power plants. There's been no reason to innovate on carbon capture for power plants, and there is not a ton of projects out there in the world, but there are plenty to serve as an adequate demonstration for purposes of the Clean Air Act. There's essentially three parts here of carbon capture. There's capture, there's transport, and there's storage. And each part of that process is well established and has been in use for decades, especially the capture part. We've been capturing carbon for decades.And so there's plenty of demonstration in both pilot projects and at commercial scale to be applied in the power sector. It doesn't have to be something that's already widely out there.David RobertsSo it's sort of a holistic consideration. And EPA is sort of attempting to apply something like wisdom here. There's a balance of considerations. And I assume, and tell me if I'm wrong, that the usual suspects are arguing to EPA that that would be too strict, that a standard based on CCS would be too strict. And presumably the way they're making that argument is by saying CCS is not the best or adequately demonstrated. So what is their argument? Have you read, like, their briefs, or do they have a specific argument here?Lissa LynchThey do, and they're familiar. It's the same set of arguments that we've seen over and over. It's too costly, we can't do it yet. We're getting there. Just let us do this at our own pace. One of the concerning things is the argument that we need gas now, and we're okay with standards that are based on something we might do in the future. So set the standards only at a level that were ready for CCS, that were ready for hydrogen sometime in the future.David RobertsCCS ready.Lissa LynchCCS ready. Hydrogen ready.David RobertsI love that phrase.Lissa LynchIt's just kicking the can down the road.David RobertsLike your own David Hawkins once said, it's like saying, my driveway is Ferrari ready.Lissa LynchExactly. And I think what's at the heart of this industry estimates that CCS can achieve 90% capture and emissions data from the projects that have been built back that up. That is not to say that EPA needs to go ahead and require a 90% emission reduction from every single coal and gas plant in the country. Right. We think it makes the most sense for EPA to draw some distinctions based on the role that the plants perform on the grid. Right. So there's a big difference between ...David RobertsOh, really?Lissa LynchYes, there's a big difference between plants that are used for baseload power that are running constantly all the time, and those that are used intermittently for reliability as backup power during times of high demand.There does not need to be the exact identical standards on those two types of plants. So plants that are running full time are emitting the most, and they should be required to reduce their emissions to the greatest degree. So we think it makes sense to have a 90% capture based standard for plants that are going to serve as baseload, that are going to run all the time. And it's the most cost effective for those types of plants to install CCS, especially when you consider the tax credit. Plants that are operating intermittently as backup are already emitting less pollution simply by running less.And those plants can face a less stringent standard, stay on the grid as backup, and serve that really important reliability function without being required to install CCS, they can meet a lesser standard.David RobertsIs there a distinction between those two kinds of plants that is clean enough and clear enough to set legal limits around them because there are some fuzzy edge cases? And then, number two, are we sure that EPA like that's within EPA? Sort of. That's not major for EPA to be thinking to be sort of specifying which standards applied based on function based on operations.Lissa LynchYes. So this is the kind of detailed analytical and technical decision making that is well within the expert agency's wheelhouse. This is exactly the type of thing that the experts at the agency are normally tasked by the statute to do. They're the ones who run the numbers and figure out what's most appropriate for the specific type of plant that they're regulating. And in fact, the existing standards for new sources do include these sorts of subcategorization based on the use type of the plant. So this is not something complex and mysterious. This is based on true and visible distinctions between types of plants based on the way that they're used.And I think it really is yet another layer of the sort of flexibility that EPA can and should build into this program. Again, none of this is a particular mandate. And so the states and the companies then have that additional choice. Well, they can run a plant full steam and install controls, or they can run intermittently, keep that plant online and face a lesser limit, or they can retire it and make their own choices about what to replace it with. This is providing more and more levels of choices to the regulated industry to comply in the way that makes sense for them.David RobertsYeah. And something you mentioned in passing, I want to just highlight and put a pin in here, which is that a big argument here on your side is CCS is now being showered with subsidies. Like there are huge subsidies coming down from the Inflation Reduction Act for captured hydrogen, enough to make them economic in some cases or certainly a lot closer. So these are synergistic. I'm saying like the Biden administration's legislation is bolstering the case for these tighter standards because CCS is not just on its own now. Now it's explicitly being helped and shaped and stood up by government grants.Lissa LynchThat's right. And at the same time, the Inflation Reduction Act also contains a ton of money for renewables. And so that level of investment across these types of technologies really changes the overall cost of the regulations. And that's one of the things that EPA has to consider, is the overall cost of compliance to the system. And so again, when these standards are in place and states and companies are looking out across their fleet and saying, oh, what should we do? All of those incentives are going to come into that consideration for them. And it makes renewables really cheap to replace your older dirtier generation with.David RobertsI got one more question about the standard setting before I want to get into the politics a little bit, but some energy heads out there may be familiar with a company called NET Power, which has come up with a new, I guess it's a couple of years old now. They've built one demonstration plan, a new technology that without getting into the technological details, it's really fascinating. I might do a whole pod on it, but basically it burns natural gas. Emits no particulate pollution at all and captures 100% of the CO2 emissions as a purified stream of CO2.So you have in NET Power a natural gas power plant with zero particulate emissions and 100% carbon capture. They've built one, it's running and working. So has there been any talk about using that as a standard? Because that would be 100% carbon reduction. Has NET Power's tech come up in these discussions?Lissa LynchYeah, for sure. I mean, it's very cool, right? It was included, the EPA put out a white paper last year asking for input, sort of preregulatory input on the technologies that are available to reduce emissions, specifically from gas plants. And they took comment on the NET Power approach, which I cannot remember the name of. Allam something.David RobertsAllam Cycle, I think is right. I was trying to think of that.Lissa LynchAnd it is really cool and innovative and I hope that that is a direction that we're going to see any remaining fossil generation go in. And I think we may see that in the proposal. Again, all of what I'm talking about here is we have not seen a proposal from EPA. This is sort of NRDC's perspective on what is possible, justifiable achievable and legally defensible in court. And this is what we've been advocating for before the agency, and then we'll have to see what they come up with. We're expecting a proposal relatively soon, probably within a month or so.David RobertsWhat's really interesting to me about this, just from a political perspective, is it's a sort of weird inversion here of the typical roles. So you've got the power sector, which has been touting CCS for years, to sort of like defend the ongoing existence of fossil power plants. They sort of wave their hands at CCS and say, no, we can go clean too. So they've got Joe Manchin out up there saying, I want to go clean, but I want to do it with fossil. I literally think they've convinced him that they can eliminate their carbon emissions. And traditionally you've had sort of greens and climate people saying that's big and overly complicated and overly expensive and stupid and nobody's ever really going to do it and it's just going to make more sense to switch to clean generation.And so now we've got this odd political inversion where the power companies are saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, CCS is not really ready. We didn't mean "ready ready," we meant just over the horizon is what we meant. That's where they like it. They like CCS just over the horizon. And all of a sudden this is like calling their bluff. Like, oh, you've been talking about this for decades. Well, how about you use it? And then on the green side, on the climate side, you have a similar inversion where now greens and green groups like yours are arguing like CCS.Oh, it's great. Yeah, it's right there, it's ready to go, absolutely ready to serve. As the basis for a standard. It's just odd and funny and I just wonder if you have any comment on the politics of trying to herd the cats in the climate community around this message of like CCS is ready and viable, which I don't think comes naturally to a lot of factions, let's say, within the climate community.Lissa LynchWell, that's well phrased. We're walking a fine line. I think our vision for the power sector and the power industry is one of net zero. And in order to get to net zero, that means a heck of a lot of renewables and a heck of a lot less fossil.David RobertsRight.Lissa LynchFor the purposes of setting pollution limits, we need a technological basis and by far and away CCS is the most effective of the options that we've got.David RobertsThat the Supreme Court left us.Lissa LynchExactly. And I think it is very important to have limits on the CO2 emissions from power plants. I think that is sort of the baseline, most important thing from our point of view.David RobertsRight, well, lots of, I mean, reports, we should just say lots of reports have been done saying the legislative progress is great, but it's not enough to reach Biden's stated goal. And to reach Biden's stated goal, you need a whole of administration approach, including these standards.Lissa LynchExactly. And just to put some actual numbers on that, if we want to meet our international and domestic greenhouse gas emission reduction targets for 2030, we need to get our power sector emissions down by 80% from the 2005 sort of peak emissions. We're already about a third of a reduction, 33% -ish reduction since 2005. Our analysis and RDCs of the Inflation Reduction Act puts us now on track to cut our power sector emissions by about 65% by 2030. So that is massive and also not enough.David RobertsRight.Lissa LynchAnd our estimate there is somewhere in the middle there's a really wide range of modeling of the Inflation Reduction Act and a lot of work is going to need to be done in order to get those emission reductions that we're sort of showing in that modeling. It's not a foregone conclusion.David RobertsYeah, one of the wildest things going on right now is just the incredible range of projections about what the IRA will do. Right. Like the sort of government came up with, oh, that it's going to spend $370 on these tax credits and then Credit Suisse is like, actually it's more like a trillion. And then I think there was another one last week, it was like actually it's more like a trillion five. So the range of amounts of money that could come out of this bill are just huge. It's so opaque.Lissa LynchIt is. And a lot still remains to be written in all the guidance for these tax credits. But that sort of uncertainty aside, I think the Inflation Reduction Act is going to accelerate a bunch of clean energy and it's going to get us a bunch of emission reductions in the power sector. And at least based on our analysis, that's not quite enough. And we absolutely are going to need limits on the CO2 emissions in addition to investments in clean energy.David RobertsSo maybe the way to summarize is just to say endorsing CCS as the basis of a performance standard is different than endorsing CCS, full stop.Lissa LynchYeah, well put. And I think what we see in the modeling reflects what I've been saying about the decision making that comes once EPA sets the standard. So when we model standards that are based on CCS and we've included the Inflation Reduction Act in the baseline, we overall get to around between 70% and 77% CO2 emission reduction by 2030. And what we're seeing in the actual generation results, there is some CCS deployment and also a ton of clean energy.David RobertsThis is my next question, actually, and you're here answering it before I even ask it, but I just wanted to ask, as a matter of curiosity, has someone modeled what would happen if EPA sets the standards where you are endorsing and what does the modeling say about the decisions power companies are going to make? Like how many fossil fuel plants will shut down versus installing CCS? I don't know if there's like an easy answer to that.Lissa LynchWell, so we have done lots of modeling and we've been doing it for quite a while because even before this Supreme Court decision last summer, we were anticipating that EPA was going to be constrained and in this sort of inside the fence line way. And so we've really been looking for ways to get the most ambition and the most emission reductions out of these sort of source specific basis for the standards. That range that I gave you is based on CCS and partial CCS runs. So 70% to 77% overall emission reductions depending how much you crank the dial on the ambition.But still with some of those sort of flexibilities that I talked about in terms of the type of use of the plant and what we see in those runs is renewables and energy storage capacity tripling from now to 2030 and quadrupling by 2035. And I think that is in large part based on these new Inflation Reduction Act tax credits being just so much more cost effective. And we still do see some retrofits with carbon capture and storage and some new builds of gas with carbon capture, but not a massive amount. And so there is some uptake of the technology and there's also some reinvestment in clean energy and that kind of tracks with what you would expect, right?And that kind of goes back to that was essentially what EPA was counting on and basing their standards off of in the Clean Power Plan and that's why they did it that way. I think we can do it this way. And that carbon capture and storage based best system of emission reduction can be shown to be available to the plants that could use it. And not all plants are going to make that choice. It's going to be up to the states and the companies to look at their options and choose whether they want to keep that plant online, and that should work.David RobertsSo NRDC is recommending a CCS based standard for both existing-source regs and new-source regs. Is there any difference between those two that's worth sort of pulling out here?Lissa LynchYeah, so I think industry estimates that CCS can achieve 90% capture. And so given that that technology exists, we think it should be used to set the standard for at least the plants that are operating at full bore, both new and existing. When you're building a new plant, you have much greater options in terms of where you're sighting it, how you're building it. You should be required to use the latest and greatest technology on a brand new plant. So that's pretty straightforward for existing plants because they're all over the place. We rely on them already for power.There needs to be more flexibility, there needs to be more of a phase-in sort of glide path to compliance and some flexibility for how you're going to comply and some exemptions for those plants that are going to commit to retire. You don't want to make them retrofit right before they're expected to retire, you want to just let them plan to retire at the natural end-of-life of the plant. And so giving that flexibility on the existing source side is going to be really important and has long been part of the way that the section 111 standard setting has worked to differentiate between new and existing plants.David RobertsSo, CCS based standard in both cases, but maybe more flexibility and implementation for the existing plants.Lissa LynchExactly.David RobertsIf EPA does use CCS or hydrogen, something like that, as the basis for its performance standard, does it have any say at all in the details of sort of how CCS or hydrogen are used or measured? Because Volts listeners just got an hour and a half earful of discussion of the clean Hydrogen Tax Credits last week, and the details are many, and they make a big gifference in how clean hydrogen is used, how it's measured sort of how its carbon intensity is assessed, how much end users are allowed to claim reductions from using it, et cetera, et cetera. Does EPA get into any of that? Or is this purely just, we're using this tech as a way to set the numerical standard, but the details of how a power plant might implement this is somebody else's problem.Lissa LynchSo they absolutely have some authority over how it gets used to comply with this standard. So for purposes of standard setting, they're looking kind of broadly at what the technology is capable of achieving, how it's been used in the past, how it could apply to power plants that exist now in terms of compliance, though, they've got the authority over CO2 essentially in this rulemaking. And so if a plant is going to demonstrate compliance using carbon capture and storage or hydrogen, they can absolutely include the types of rigorous monitoring and verification requirements they would need to see in order for a plant to be demonstrating compliance using one of these technologies.David RobertsRight? So they can get into saying, here's what does and doesn't qualify as full CCS like measured every so often, or this kind of geographical storage. They can't get into that?Lissa LynchI absolutely think so. I think they have authority to say you need to have rigorous monitoring and verification from the point of capture to the point of sequestration. And that needs to be part of your demonstration of compliance for using carbon capture. For hydrogen ... It's a little trickier.David RobertsI'm very aware at the moment.Lissa LynchTo the extent that there is going to be a pathway for hydrogen to be used for compliance, it's got to take into account where that hydrogen comes from, how it's made in order to avoid net emissions increases. And I think they absolutely have that authority. Given that the purpose of this is for the best system of emission reduction, they've got to ensure that it is truly reducing emissions.David RobertsMaybe they can just borrow whatever treasury comes up with for the hydrogen.Lissa LynchAssuming it's good.David RobertsYes, true. If EPA doesn't go with CCS, doesn't go with the high end here, what do you think it will do? Will it fall back to something medium, something in the fuel blending sort of range? And just more broadly, do we have any sense at all of what EPA is thinking or which direction it's going or what to expect?Lissa LynchI think in terms of publicly facing tea leaves, what we've got to look at really is that white paper from last year where they had laid out the options and said, hey, give us some comments on what you think of these options for reducing CO2 emissions from combustion turbines. From everything that we have seen from this administration, we are hoping that they're going to be ambitious. They know that this is a critical moment. They know that this is an important wedge of emissions, that the power sector is still a really significant percentage of our emissions, roughly a quarter, and that we need standards on those CO2 emissions and they need to be strong.And it's not going to be worth all this work, honestly, if they don't make them strong. And so that has been our message to the administration, is, look, if you're going to go through the trouble of doing this all over again, let's make it worth it.David RobertsIs Manchin he's like the monster under my bed at this point. Is there some way Manchin could burst out of the closet and screw this up somehow? Or is he ...Lissa LynchI hesitate to even speculate.David RobertsCan I just not think about him in this respect, or does he have some way that he could theoretically muck this up, or is this something that's finally just sort of beyond his reach?Lissa LynchI think for now, the ball is in EPA's court to come out with a proposal and to take public comments and to consider them. And so for right now, this is an EPA project. Once it's finalized, it will presumably be subject to a Congressional Review Act resolution, and it will depend on who is in charge as to what happens there. And so that's when Congress gets to have its veto opportunity over regulations, which is unfortunate, but it is the world we're living in.David RobertsAnd does that just require a majority or a supermajority?Lissa LynchI believe it's just a majority, but it can be blocked by the President.David RobertsRight. And by the time there's a new president, it'll be too late. We're coming in under the deadline that the Congressional Review Act, if it's going to happen at all, would happen under Biden and thus would be vetoed. So that's not really ...Lissa LynchAnd so that takes place at the final rule. So we're only at the proposal stage. We've got a long way to go.David RobertsIs it going to get done under the Congressional Review Act just to just explain to listeners? Congressional Review Act says basically Congress can undo or veto a regulation basically within a certain window of it being finalized which is 60 ...Lissa Lynch60 working days, which does not equal the calendar days.David RobertsRight. So what you want to do is get your regulations on the books more than 60 working days prior to the next presidential election.Lissa LynchExactly.David RobertsJust so you're sure your guys in charge, if it happens.Lissa LynchThe date that we are looking at is next April, roughly a year from now, for all of these regulations. Right. Like it's not just ...David RobertsThere's a lot these are not the only ones. There's a lot of there's a big backlog.Lissa LynchIt is. And we are seeing the use of the Congressional Review Act right now as we speak in this Congress with attempts to invalidate the rules that the administration has recently finalized. It is a terrible tool. It is not a good thing.David RobertsIt's a Newt Gingrich special, isn't it? Am I right about the history? Of course, like so many malignant things in our government treat.Lissa LynchBut it is the world we're living in, and I think the administration is aware of the timeline that's facing them next year.David RobertsInteresting. So you think a proposed rule is going to show up in the next month or two?Lissa LynchYeah, we're expecting a proposed rule maybe by the end of April. And then when ... you know what happens, that gets published in the Federal Register. There's an opportunity for public comment. There's public hearings. And so there will be sort of a flurry of activity as everybody gets their comments in, and then the agency has to review those comments and address them in the final rule. That's part of the sort of Administrative Law 101. And then they have to issue the final rule and demonstrate yeah, we heard all your comments, and this is why we made the decisions that we made.David RobertsAnd that's when the lawsuits kick off.Lissa LynchAnd that's when the lawsuits start. Exactly. We do it all over again. It's the circle of life.David RobertsYes. And what do you think of the chances that this Supreme Court ends up hearing a case on this again? Do you think the conservatives can mount a legal case plausible enough to get it back into the Supreme Court?Lissa LynchI would never speculate about what this Supreme Court will do, because who knows, right? Our job is to make this thing as airtight as possible. And Chief Justice Roberts gave us some guidelines and a roadmap in the West Virginia decision. He told us what he's looking for, and it's this sort of traditional looking approach to pollution control. And so that's what we're operating under. And we are urging EPA to follow those guidelines and do the most that they can within those constraints, and we'll be there to defend it with them if it comes down to that.David RobertsAll right, awesome. Lissa Lynch of NRDC, thank you for coming and forecasting and explaining all this with us. Maybe we'll talk again in that distant future day when these things are actually on the books and the lawsuits have started. We'll talk again.Lissa LynchThank you so much for having me.David RobertsThank you for listening to the Volts podcast. It is ad-free, powered entirely by listeners like you. If you value conversations like this, please consider becoming a paid Volts subscriber at volts.wtf. Yes, that's volts.wtf so that I can continue doing this work. Thank you so much, and I'll see you next time. 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En este episodio, Denisse nos muestra el vasto mundo de los análisis que se le hacen a la uvas, jugo, mosto y vino y el porqué de los análisis. Si, como yo, te has lanzado a hacer una pequeña producción de vino, Denisse te dirá que análisis son fundamentales para tu vino.Denisse Merari Ghinis Rojas es Licenciada en Química de alimentos por parte de la Universidad Autónoma de Hidalgo, es Sommelier por parte de de la Organización Nacional de Sommeliers de México y cuanta con una maestría en enología por parte de ESAH Estudios Superiores Abiertos de Hostelería.Denisse es una loca del vino y actualmente es el jefe de calidad y auxiliar ecológico para Sala Vivé en Freixenet México. Bajo la instrucción del enólogo, Denisse en conjunto con el jefe de bodega, se encarga de de la elaboración de los vinos base y coupages para los diferentes vinos que Frexenet elabora. Este episodio fue producido por mi, Bruno Stump. Si te gustó VinoPod y quieres apoyar lo mejor que puedes hacer es hablarle a alguien de VinoPod!Me despido con este proverbio inglés“La belleza es peor que el vino: embriaga tanto al dueño como al espectador”.Bruno Stump (@vinopod_podcast)Diseño gráfico y logo: Artista Léa Chauré. www.leachaure.comMúsica de inicio “Funkalicious” y efectos de sonido especiales: www.Zapsplat.comMusca final “Chappy” Autor: Gabriel Morfín. https://www.facebook.com/gabo.morfinSupport the show

Is Sulfur dioxide (SO2) a natural part of Fermentation? In this episode pre-recorded at CiderCon 2023, you'll get to hear from cider makers who will share their knowledge and expertise on the topic of sulfur dioxide cider.  Plus, you'll learn about the safety and health implications of adding SO2, as well as the legal limits for different markets. In this episode: 1. What are the potential benefits and drawbacks of using sulfur dioxide (SO2) in the cidermaking both in the US and the UK. 2. How has the ban of BPA in California impacted the cider industry and what have can manufacturers done to adjust? 3. What strategies can winemakers and cider makers use to ensure their products are properly protected against oxidation and microbial spoilage? 4. Makers conclusion on whether SO2 is necessary for making cider. SO2 Panelists and Contact info (l to r) Tim Godfrey, Dave Takush, Teagan Bium, Tom Oliver Moderator Tim Godfrey is the head of Godfrey Beverage Solutions Dave Takish is the head cider maker and co-owner of Oregon's 2 Towns Cider House Tegan Bium is the cider maker at Virginia's Lost Boy Cider Tom Oliver owner and cider maker at Oliver's Cider and Perry Company | Herefordshire, England's Mentions in this Chat Fermentis - Yeast and Fermentation Solutions for Cidermakers.  Carbonic Maceration for making cider - Revel Cider - Canada Subscribe to eCiderNews Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving! Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts. Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast Twitter@ciderchat Instagram:@ciderchatciderville Cider Chat FaceBook Page Cider Chat YouTube

In this episode, I talk about how volcanic eruptions can affect climate - by releasing ash, gas, and aerosols.  We talk about the role of CO2 and SO2 and what effect they may have.   I talked specifically about Pinatubo, Tambora, and the Laki eruptions.I also mention an activity available for GEOetc Members called Climeworld that members can download and use in their classrooms to show students how the volcano's location can affect climates in different hemispheres.Visit our GEOetc Members Section - Over 100 teaching resources that are classroom-ready to help you teach Earth science. Check them out!Support the show

A few weeks ago, TIME Magazine staff writer Alejandro de la Garza found himself on the floor of a hotel room in Nevada with two guys trying to cook sulfur dioxide out of a tin can.  Luke Iseman and Andrew Song are the co-founders of Make Sunsets, a startup claiming to be implementing solar geoengineering by launching weather balloons filled with SO2 into the stratosphere. Their first experimental launch in the Mexican state of Baja resulted in a swift regulatory response from the Mexican government. But when they ran another test launch a few weeks ago just outside of Reno, Nevada, Luke invited Alejandro to meet them.  This week, we speak with Alejandro about his TIME profile of the risky startup. Plus, we talk with geoengineering experts, Dr. Holly Buck and Dr. Kevin Surprise. “Any single person you talk to in solar geoengineering research, whether they're bullish or against it, they all think that what makes Sunsets doing is a bad idea,” explains Alejandro. Make Sunsets represents a turning point for the field of geoengineering, when rogue actors are pushing it from academic debate into the real world. Is the company's recent balloon launch an act of performance art – or an open door to an uncontrolled climate experiment? Come watch a live episode of The Carbon Copy! Canary Media and Post Script Media are hosting a live event at Greentown Labs in Somerville, Ma. on April 6. record a live episode of The Carbon Copy with some very special guests. Get your tickets today. The Carbon Copy is supported by FischTank PR, a public relations, strategic messaging, and social media agency dedicated to elevating the work of climate and clean energy companies. Learn more about FischTank's approach to cleantech and their services: fischtankpr.com. The Carbon Copy is supported by Scale Microgrids, the distributed energy company dedicated to transforming the way modern energy infrastructure is designed, constructed, and financed. Distributed generation can be complex. Scale makes it easy. Learn more: scalemicrogrids.com. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

James Clegern, CEO & President, KineticCore Solutions leads KineticCore Solutions developing the world's best short-duration and cost-effective Energy Storage System reducing CO2, NOx and SO2 pollution to preserve our environment for future generations.

Intro: Sometimes the little guy just doesn't cut it.Let Me Run This By You: Time's a wastin' - giddyup, beggars and choosers.Interview: We talk to star of Parks and Recreation, Easter Sunday, and Barry - Rodney To about Chicago, Marquette University, Lane Tech,  getting discovered while pursuing a Chemistry degree, The Blues Brothers, Dürrenmatt's The Physicists, playing children well into adulthood, interning at Milwaukee Rep, Lifeline Theatre, Steppenwolf, doing live industrials for Arthur Anderson, Asian American actors and their representation in the media, IAMA Theatre Company, Kate Burton, and faking a Singaporean accent.FULL TRANSCRIPT (UNEDITED):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth RAMIREZ2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand2 (15s):It. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (30s):How's your, how's your eighties decor going for your1 (35s):New house? Okay, well we closed yesterday. Well,2 (39s):Congratulations.1 (40s):Thank you. House buying is so weird. Like we close, we funded yesterday, but we can't record till today because my lender like totally dropped the ball. So like, here's the thing. Sometimes when you wanna support like a small, I mean small, I don't know, like a small bank, like I really liked the guy who is the mortgage guy and he has his own bank and all these things. I don't even, how know how this shit works. It's like, but anyway, they were so like, it was a real debacle. It was a real, real Shannon situation about how they, anyway, my money was in the bank in escrow on Friday.1 (1m 20s):Their money that they're lending us, which we're paying in fucking fuck load of interest on is they couldn't get it together. And I was like, Oh no.2 (1m 29s):They're like, We have to look through the couch cushions,1 (1m 31s):Right? That's what it felt like, Gina. It felt like these motherfuckers were like, Oh shit, we didn't actually think this was gonna happen or something. And so I talked to escrow, my friend Fran and escrow, you know, I make friends with the, with the older ladies and, and she was like, I don't wanna talk bad about your lender, but like, whoa. And I was like, Fran, Fran, I had to really lay down the law yesterday and I needed my office mate, Eileen to be witness to when I did because I didn't really wanna get too crazy, but I also needed to get a little crazy. And I was like, Listen, what you're asking for, and it was true, does not exist. They needed one. It was, it was like being in the, in the show severance mixed with the show succession, mixed with, it was like all the shows where you're just like, No, no, what you're asking for doesn't exist and you wanna document to look a certain way.1 (2m 25s):And Chase Bank doesn't do a document that way. And she's like, Well she said, I don't CH bank at Chase, so I don't know. And I said, Listen, I don't care where you bank ma'am, I don't care. But this is Chase Bank. It happens to be a very popular bank. So I'm assuming other people have checking accounts that you deal with at Chase. What I'm telling, she wanted me to get up and go to Chase Bank in person and get a printout of a certain statement period with an http on the bottom. She didn't know what she was talking about. She didn't know what she was talking about. And she was like, 18, 18. And I said, Oh ma'am, if you could get this loan funded in the next, cuz we have to do it by 11, that would be really, really dope.1 (3m 6s):I'm gonna hang up now before I say something very bad. And then I hung up.2 (3m 10s):Right, Right. Yeah. Oh my God, I know. It's the worst kind of help. And regarding like wanting to support smaller businesses, I what, that is such a horrible sadness. There's, there's no sadness. Like the sadness of really investing in the little guy and having it. That was my experience. My big experience with that was going, having a midwife, you know, with my first child. And I really, I was in that whole thing of that, that time was like, oh, birth is too medicalized. And you know, even though my husband was a doctor, like fuck the fuck the medical establishment we're just, but but didn't wanna, like, I didn't wanna go, as my daughter would say, I didn't wanna be one of those people who, what did she say?2 (3m 52s):You know, one of those people who carry rocks to make them feel better.1 (3m 57s):That's amazing. Super.2 (4m 0s):So I didn't wanna go so far as to be one of those rock carrying people to have the birth at my house, but at the same time I really wanted to have this midwife and then there was a problem and she wasn't equipped to deal with it. And it was,1 (4m 11s):I was there,2 (4m 13s):Fyi. Yes, you were1 (4m 15s):The first one, right? For your first one.2 (4m 16s):The first one.1 (4m 18s):Here's the thing you're talking about this, I don't even remember her ass. What I, she, I don't remember nothing about her. If you had told me you didn't have one, I'd be like, Yeah, you didn't have one. I remember the problem and I remember them having to get the big, the big doctor and I remember a lot of blood and I remember thinking, Oh thank God there's this doctor they got from down the hall to come or wherever the hell they were and take care of this problem because this gene is gonna bleed out right here. And none of us know what to do.2 (4m 50s):Yes. I will never forget the look on your face. You and Erin looking at each other trying to do that thing where you're like, It's fine, it's fine. But you're such a bad liar that, that I could, I just took one look at you. I'm like, Oh my God, I'm gonna fucking bleed out right here. And Aaron's going, No, no, no, it's cool, it's cool, it's cool. And then of course he was born on July 25th and all residents start their residency on July 1st. So you know, you really don't wanna have a baby or have surgery in July cuz you're getting at a teaching hospital cuz you're getting a lot of residents. And this woman comes in as I'm bleeding and everything is going crazy and I haven't even had a chance to hold my baby yet. And she comes up to me and she says, Oh cuz the, the midwife ran out of lidocaine. There was no lidocaine.2 (5m 30s):That's right. They were trying to sew me up without lidocaine. And so this nurse comes in, she puts her hand on my shoulder, she says, Hi, I'm Dr. Woo and I'm, and I said, Dr. W do you have any lidocaine? I need some lidocaine stat right up in there. Gimme some lidocaine baby. And she had to call her boss. You know who I could tell when he came in, of course he was a man and I could tell when he came in, he looks at my midwife and is like, Oh, this is what you did here. I see we have to come in and clean up. But sometimes that's the case. Sometimes it's really just true that, you know, it's that the, that the bigger kind of like more corporate option is better cuz it just works better.1 (6m 8s):Well, and they've done this before, like there is, they've done the job before in a way, and they've seen the problems. They know how to troubleshoot in a way because they just have the fucking experience. Now you could say that getting that experience is like super fucked up and patriarchal and, and all the isms, it's, and you'd be right, but when you are bleeding to death or when you know you are in a big financial negotiation that could go south at any moment and lead to not having a ho like a all feeling lost. You want someone who knows how to fucking troubleshoot, dude. Like, come on. And I, you know, and it is sad, it's heartbreaking when you like, fuck man.1 (6m 50s):I really wanted this, like Dr. Altman always said, and I have an update on Dr. Altman, my favorite psychiatrist mentor of mine. But he always said like, well when I was going through med titration, when they put this dingling at Highland Park Hospital, who tried her best but put me on lithium thinking I was bipolar and then I was and all the meds, right? All the meds. And he's like, well they could've worked2 (7m 15s):It could've worked it1 (7m 17s):All's. And I was like, you are right. So like, it could've worked, it could've gone differently, but it just didn't. So it's like, yeah, it's better to look at it like that because, or else it's just infuriating that it didn't work in the first place, Right? Like, you're like, well fucker, Well they tried.2 (7m 35s):Yeah. I use that all the time that it could have worked. Things that I got through you from Dr. Altman, you know, my husband is having like some major, you know, growth moments. Like come like those moments where all the puzzle pieces become clear and you go, Okay, my childhood isn't what I thought it was and this person has got this and this person has got that. Yes. You know? And, and whenever he's doing the thing that we all do, which is like lamenting the life, the family he wish he had had, I always say like, well, as Dr. Almond says, it could have worked. Yes, these parents could have been just fine for you if you were a different person, but you're you.2 (8m 16s):And so, and they're them and it wasn't a good match. And like that happens sometimes.1 (8m 21s):And I think it's really good with kids maybe too. Cause it's like, listen, like, like I say to my niece, like it could, this could have been whatever it is the thing or my nephew too that worked and like that you loved volleyball or that you loved this. Like you are just looking, and I think it's all about titration, right? Like it's all about figuring out where we fit in, where we belong, where we don't. And it's a fucking process, which is what he was saying and like, and that you don't, we don't get it right the first time. Even in medicine, even in it's maybe especially in medicine, maybe in especially in relationships, like, so it, it also opens the door for like, possibility, right? That like, it's an experiment and like, we don't know, even doctors don't know, Hey, run this by you, Miles did of course.1 (9m 14s):And done. What about you? What about you?2 (9m 17s):I'm gonna do it after this, after we're done recording today, I'm gonna go over and I always like to take one of my kids so they, you know, see that this is the process and you have to do it and it's everybody's responsibilities to do it. That doesn't mean that I didn't get all angry at my own party this week. You know, my mom has a great expression. I think it's her expression. She says it. In any case, all politics is local, right? Like where it really, where the really meets the road is what's happening in your backyard. And like, I have a lot of problems with my town,1 (9m 52s):So Right.2 (9m 53s):They don't wanna have, you know, they voted down this measure to put a a, like a sober living place, wanted to take up residence here. Couldn't think of a greater idea. Nobody wanted it. You know, it's a lot of nis not in my backyarders over here. And it really drives me crazy. And in the, in the paper this week, there was a big scandal because there's this particular like committee in our town, Okay. That was in charge of, there was gonna be this, what is it, like a prize maybe or an honor or not a scholarship Okay. But something where they were gonna have to name it.2 (10m 33s):Okay. And they were, you know, really looking around for names. They were trying to think up what names would be appropriate. And somebody put forward the name of this person who is already kind of a named figure in our town. Like, we had this beautiful fountain, it's named after him. He was, he was a somewhat of a big guy, you know, he was an architect, whatever. Sure. So this name gets put forward in this woman who's on this committee says, I don't think this is a great time to name something after an old white man. Now, to me couldn't be a more reasonable thing in the world to say everybody's calling for her resignation. And these, you know, the thing that I hate the most about, not just conservatives, but it seems like it's especially conservatives.2 (11m 20s):I hate this saying. And I remember, I think I've said this before on the podcast, I remember hearing some black activists saying a lot of white, you know, a lot of racism perpetrated by white people is like founded on pretending. Pretending like you don't see color pretending like, you know, saying things like, Oh, well why would you have had that experience, you know, walking down our street at night? Like, or why would you have had that difficulty getting that job? I don't understand. And pretending like they don't know that this person just got1 (11m 51s):That job because of2 (11m 52s):The color biscuit and that kind kind of a thing. So of course the way that people are coming down on this woman is to say, Well, I don't know about you, but I was taught that we have to look beyond race and we have to recognize the person before the color of their skin. And if you can't be, you know, representing the needs of white men, then I just don't really think that you, there's a place on this council. And of course, you know, somebody who I know and have in the past really respected was quoted in this article as saying, Oh, somebody who considers himself like a staunch liberal. Yeah. I mean, I just really can't think of any people of note from our town who weren't white men.2 (12m 34s):Sure. And this motherfucker let himself be quoted in our newspaper as saying this. Now maybe he feels fine about it. Maybe he doesn't think there's anything wrong with it. But I I I think it's completely, completely disgusting. Of course. So then I went and I just did this research of like all the people who have lived in our town historically, they're not just white men. We, there's other people to choose from. Needless1 (12m 58s):To say. Yeah. Well also, like, it's so interesting. I mean, it's just that that quote just is so problematic on so many levels. It like goes so deep. But like the other thing is like, maybe they miss, the only thing I can think of is that dude, did they miss the second half of your quote? Which was, and that's a problem. Like, like if, if you can't, if you can't finish that quote with, you know, I can't really think of like anyone of note in our being or anyone being recognized in our town in this way that wasn't a white dude and that's really crazy. We should really reevaluate how we're doing things here.1 (13m 39s):Period. You're so2 (13m 41s):To offer, you're so, you're so sweet to offer him this benefit of the doubt. Of course I don't offer that to him because this is a person who, you know, there's been a few people in my life who I've had the opportunity to, you know, know what they say privately and then know what they say publicly. Right? And I, and I know this, you know, I know this person personally. And no, it doesn't surprise me at all that, that that would've been the entirety of the quote. It would've been taken out of context. Now it might have been, and I don't know, and I'm not, I'm not gonna call him up to ask him, but you know, at a minimum you go on the local Facebook page and say, I was misquoting.1 (14m 20s):No, no, yeah. Chances are that this, this person just said this. And actually the true crime is not realizing if, if, if that's the case, that they, that that statement is problematic. So that's really fucked up. And also, like, think of all the native people that were on that land, on our land. Like, you're gonna tell me that just because you haven't done, they haven't done the research. They don't think that a native person from the northeast did something of greatness. Shut up, man. Excellent. Before it was rich.2 (14m 56s):Excellent point, Excellent point. Maybe when I write to my letter to the editor, maybe I'll quote you on that because Yeah, yeah. It's like, it's so, it's just, and I'm, by the way, I'm, I have been, I'm sure I'm still am guilty of the same thing too, of just being the laziness of like, well, I don't know, we'd love to, you know, hire a person of color, but none have applied. I mean, I have definitely said things like that and I just understand differently now I understand. No, no, no, they're not gonna be at the top of the pile of resumes that you're gonna get because historically these people haven't felt like there's a place for them at your table. So what you have to do is go above and beyond and say, we are specifically recruiting people of color for this position. I understand.1 (15m 35s):And how about even like, do some research online and find out who those people are and try to like, hire them away from wherever they are to and make them a great offer. You know what I mean? Like all those things. Well,2 (15m 48s):This experience did cause me to go on my little Wikipedia and look up, you know, people who have lived here and I was really like, surprised to learn how many people have known. Now it's true to say that, you know, when, when you're just looking up a list of famous people, it is gonna mostly be white men because that's who mostly, you know, sort of, she made, made history, made the news, whatever. But yeah, one of the very first things that come up, comes up when you look it up my town on Wikipedia, is that the fact that this was the Ramapo tribe that lived here. You know, this is who we took the land away from. I was also surprised to that.1 (16m 29s):I've never,2 (16m 30s):Yeah, Yeah. It was also interesting to learn, supposedly according to this, how many people of live here currently, including people like Harvey Firestein, who I have, I've never seen around town, but God I would really love to. And like some other, you know, sort of famous people. But anyway, That's1 (16m 50s):So cool.2 (16m 51s):Yeah. So, so I will be voting after this and I really, I don't have a great feeling about the election, but I'm, you know, I'm just like, what can you do? You can just sort of go forward and, you know, stick to your values. Yeah. I mean,1 (17m 7s):The thing is, stick to your values, move forward. And like my aunt, happy birthday, Tia, it's her birthday today, and she is like super depressed that, you know, she, she said, what she says is like, fascism is really, today is the day that we really something about fascism, it's like really dire and like really, Okay. So my, it's so interesting that I think boomers feel really bad because they had it so good, even though it wasn't really good, there was an illusion of goodness. Right? So I, I am depressed. But here's the thing, and I was, I was gonna bring this up to you.1 (17m 47s):It's like I, I had an experience last night where I went to this theater and saw the small theater, which I really wanna do my solo show in which is this famous theater called The Hayworth, which is, they show silent movies and all, but there's now it's like an improv sort of venue and, and it's really cute and throwbacky. But anyway, I went there and I just was thinking like, as I was watching these performers, like, oh, it is not even that, Like, it's literally that I spent 45 years thinking that I was worse than everybody else, right? And so now that I don't really think that, I actually don't have that much time left to accomplish what I would like to accomplish. So I, I spent all this time feeling like I couldn't do what she's doing.1 (18m 29s):I can't do what he's doing, can't do what theirs doing. They're, they are doing because I'm not good enough. Like literally. And now I'm like, Oh my God, I'm good enough. I have things to say. I really wanna leave a legacy. And literally the clock is ticking. Now, I'm not saying I'm running around like a nut, but what I'm saying is like, I, I, I do feel that I literally don't have the time left to participate in half-assed measures of art or whatever we're gonna do. We gotta make it purposeful because I w i, I spent all this time getting ready 45 years to not hate myself. And now the clock is ticking, I donate myself and there are things to do.1 (19m 13s):That's literally how I feel. So then when I see art or something where I'm like, Why are you using your platform this way? What are you talking about? What are you saying? Oh no, I can't, I even now I know why people leave movies early, plays early if it is, and some, for me anyway, like some people probably just assholes and like the, the person on stage doesn't look cute and they're out or whatever, but, or they're having panic attacks like I used to and I have to leave. But like, mostly I understand where it's like this is wasting my, my time, time I could be using to sort of plant seeds that may do something to be of service.1 (19m 53s):So I'm gonna jet and good luck to you. But yeah, it's the first, I just really feel like time is of the essence. And I always thought that was such a stupid thing that old people said, which was, you know, time is our most precious commodity. And I was always like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. And now I'm like, oh shit. Yeah, it's really true Dude.2 (20m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. I actually had an experience some that I relate to with that, which is that, you know, I, I volunteered to be part of this festival of one act and you know, the thing we were supposed to do is read all of the submissions and then pick our top three. And then they were gonna do this rank order thing where they're attempting to put each director with one of their top three choices. Well, I read, it was like 10 plays I read them and I, I didn't have three, three ch choices. There was only one play that I felt frankly was worth my time.2 (20m 56s):And I felt really uncomfortable about having that feeling. And I was doing all of the like, who do you think you are? And you know, it's, you haven't directed something in three years and beggars can't be choosers in the whole thing. And I just thought, you know, I know what I'm gonna do if I don't stand up for whatever it is I think I can do here is I'm gonna resent the thing that I get, you know, pitted with and then I'm gonna do something self-destructive or I'm gonna kind of like blow up the relationship and I don't wanna do that. So I spend a lot of time thinking about how I was gonna write this email back saying basically like, I don't have three choices. I only have one choice. And I understand if you don't want to give that to me that this, I might not be a good fit for you.2 (21m 37s):You know? But I really, I really kind of sweated over it because when you don't, you know, when you're a very, if I was an extremely established theater director, you know, I wouldn't have thought twice about it. But I'm not, I'm trying to be established here and I, you know, so my, my, my go-to has always been well having opinions and choices and stuff like that is for people who, you know, have more than you do or have more to offer than you do. And it doesn't always work out that when you kind of say, This is me and take me or leave me. It doesn't always work out. But in this case it doesn't. They gave me my first choice. And so I'm, I'm happy about that, but there's a lot.2 (22m 18s):Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot that just goes into the, it's all just work I have to do on myself. Like, I have this, a way of thinking about things is like, I have to do this work with this other person or I have to convince them why it has nothing to do with that. It's just that I have to do this.1 (22m 34s):Well that's what I'm realizing, like Gina, Absolutely. And good for you for like, coming at it from a place of like, okay, like this might not work, but I have to do it to see and put it out there and it may not work and they may say, go fuck yourself. But the alternative one is resentment, but also is like, hmm, not doing anybody else any favors either. If you aren't saying like, I actually don't have three choices here, I'm not gonna do justice. And I also, it brings me to my other thing, which I thought was so full of shit, which is so true. It's like most things are just not, it's about not being a right fit. It's not about you're bad and I'm good, I'm good and you're bad.1 (23m 15s):It's like, this is not a good match. And I, I think it just takes what it takes to learn that it is a not, it's about a matching situation. So like you knew that like those other two wouldn't be good matches and you wouldn't do a service to them or yourself. And it's not, And also like this thing about beggars can't be choosers. I fucking think it's so dumb because like most of us are beggars all the time and, and we, we settle for garbage. And it doesn't, like, I feel like we can, like beggars should be more choosy. And I also feel like, I'm not saying not be humble, but like, fuck you if you take away our choices, like we have to have choices.1 (23m 57s):That's the thing. It's like beggars have choices, whatever you call a beggar, we still have choices. Like how we're gonna interact and how and how we're gonna send emails and shit. I'm just like,2 (24m 9s):Yeah. Plus that whole phrase is so like, in a way rooted in this kind of like terrible supremacy structure that we're trying to fight against, which is like, we wanna tell, of course we wanna tell beggars that they can't be choosers cuz we just, we don't wanna think about them as people who have the same agency in life as we do.1 (24m 25s):Sure. And now I've started saying to people when I have this conversation about like, about unhoused, people like having tent encampments and I get it, like, you're going to school, you're walking your kid to Montessori and there's a fucking tent encampment in your front yard. You did not pay for that. You did not sign up for that. You are, I get it. And also my question is, what are we gonna do when the tents outnumber the people in homes? Because then it's a real fucking problem. So like, how are we gonna do that? You think it's uncomfortable? I think it's uncomfortable to walk by a tent encampment as I'm on my way to a coffee date with someone or whatever.1 (25m 8s):That's uncomfortable. But what are we gonna do when, like in India, the, the quote slums or whatever people, you know, whatever people choose to call it, outnumber the goddamn people in the towers. Then we, then it's gonna be a different problem.2 (25m 35s):Today on the podcast, we were talking to Rodney Toe. Rodney is an actor, you know him from Parks and Recreation, Barry good girls Rosewood. He was in a film this summer called Easter Sunday. Anyway, he's a delight. He's also a professor of theater at USC and he's charming and wonderful and we know you are going to love listening to him as much as we loved talking to him. So please enjoy our conversation with Rodney Toe.3 (26m 8s):Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay?2 (26m 11s):Yes, you sound great. You sound1 (26m 13s):Happy. No echo. You have beautiful art behind you. We can't ask for a2 (26m 17s):Better Easter Sunday. We were just talking about Easter Sunday, so we're gonna have to ask you Oh sure about it, Beth. But first I have to say congratulations, Rodney tell you survive theater school.3 (26m 28s):Oh, thank you. Yes, I did. I sure did. Was2 (26m 31s):It usc? Did you go to3 (26m 32s):Usc? No, I, I'm a professor. I'm currently a professor at usc. So1 (26m 36s):We just assumed you went there, but where did you go3 (26m 38s):To No, no, no, no, no. I, that, that came about like in a roundabout way, but no, I, I totally, I went, went to Marquette University. Oh, in Milwaukee?1 (26m 46s):In Milwaukee. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So3 (26m 48s):Everybody's reaction, everybody's reactions like, well1 (26m 53s):I actually love Mil, I'm from Chicago and Evanston you do and then you are,3 (26m 58s):Yeah, born and raised north side. My family's still there. What1 (27m 1s):The hell? How did I not know this? Yeah, I'm from Evanston, but lived in Rogers Park and went to, we went to DePaul.3 (27m 7s):Well I hear the park. Yes, yes. Born and raised. My family's still there. I am a Chicago, I'm an undying Chicago and through and through. Yeah.1 (27m 15s):Wait a minute. So, so, okay, okay, okay. So you grew up on the north, you grew up in, on the north side.3 (27m 20s):Yeah, I grew up in, I, I grew up and I went to Lane Tech. Oh1 (27m 24s):My gosh, that's where my niece goes right this very minute. She goes, Yeah,3 (27m 28s):It's1 (27m 28s):Quite the school. I dunno how it was when you went, but it went through a hard time and now it's like one of these3 (27m 34s):Go, I mean when I went it was, it was still considered a magnet school. And I I, you know, I think like in like it went maybe through a period of like, sort of like shifting, but then it's like now it's an incredible school. I'm September 17th is apparently Rodney to day at Lane 10. No, Yeah, it just happened. I mean it's, it's silly. It's Easter significance. No, cause of Easter Sunday they did like a bunch of, you know, I do a lot of advocacy for the Asian American for Asian-American representation. So sort like all together1 (28m 4s):That movie had broke so many, broke so many barriers and was, I mean it was a phenomenal, and also I just feel like it's so obviously so needed. Duh. When people say like, more representation is needed, I'm like, okay, no shit Sherlock. But it's true. It bears repeat again. Cause it still is true that we need more representation. But I am fascinated. Ok, so you went to Lane Tech and were you like, I'm gonna be a famous actor, comedian? No, what,3 (28m 34s):What anything about it? Didn't I, you know, it's called Lane Tech for a reason, right? It's a technical school. Correct. So like we didn't, you know, it didn't, I mean there were arts, but I, it never really, you know, it was one of those things that were like, you know, I guess like when you were a kid, it's all like, hey, you wanna learn how to like macrame. But there were theater arts in my, in my high school, but it wasn't like,1 (28m 54s):In fact, my mother did macrame. And let me tell you something, it has come back in style. And the shit she made, we could be selling for $199 at Urban Outfitters right now. I'm just,3 (29m 4s):Oh yeah, it's trendy now. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's in style.1 (29m 7s):Anyway, side note, side note. Okay, so you were like, I'm not doing, there was no performing at Lane Tech. There was no like out there, there,3 (29m 13s):There was, and there was, but it wasn't, again, you know, in terms of representation, there was nothing that like, I mean there was nothing that that showed me any kind of like longevity in, in, you know, it didn't even really occur to me that this was a business that people sort of like, you know, pursued for themselves. So it wasn't until I went to Marquette that I discovered theater. And so it was one of those things that like, I was like, oh, there's something here. So it wasn't like, it wasn't fostered since I was a kid.1 (29m 43s):This,2 (29m 44s):And this is my favorite type of origin story because it means, you know, like there are people who grow up in LA or their, their parents are in the industry. And then, so it's always a question like, am I gonna go into this industry? But, but people like you and like me and like Boz, who, there's no artist in our family, you know,3 (30m 4s):You2 (30m 4s):Just have to come to it on your own. So I would love to hear this story about finding it at Marquette.3 (30m 10s):So like the, this, I, I've told this story several times, but the short version of it is, so I went to college for chemistry. And so again, because I came from, you know, that that was just sort of the path that, that particularly, you know, an Asian American follows. It's a very sort of stem, regimented sort of culture. And when I went to Marquette, my first, my sort of my first like quarter there, it was overwhelming, you know, I mean, college was, was a big transition for me. I was away from home and I, I was overwhelmed with all of the STEM courses that I was taking, the GE courses. And I, I went to my advisor and at the time, you know, this is pre-internet, like he, we sat down, I sat down with him and he pulled out the catalog.3 (30m 52s):Oh yeah, the catalog, right? I1 (30m 54s):Remember the catalog. Oh yeah.3 (30m 56s):And so he was like, let's take a class that has nothing to do with your major. Oh,1 (30m 60s):I love this. I love this advisor. I love this advisor. Do you know, can he you say his name3 (31m 7s):At the, was it Daniel? Dr. Daniel t Hayworth. I mean, it's been a while I went to college with Dahmer was arrested. So that's been a1 (31m 15s):While. Okay. Yeah's, same with us. Same with me. Yeah.3 (31m 18s):Yeah. So like, I think it was Daniel Daniel Hayworth. Yeah. Cuz he was a, he was a chemistry professor as well. So he opened up, he opened up the, the thing in the, the catalog and it said acting for non-majors. And I remember thinking, that sounds easy, let's do that. And then I went to the class, I got in and he, he, he was able to squeeze me in because already it was already in the earl middle of the semester. And so I, the, the, the, the teacher for that class was a Jesuit priest. His name is Father Gerald Walling. And you know, God rest his soul. And he, his claim to fame was he had like two or three lines on Blues Brothers, the movie.1 (31m 59s):Amazing. I mean like great to fame to have Yes. Get shot in Chicago. Yeah. And if you're a Jesuit priest that's not an actor by trade, like that is like huge. Like most people would like die to have two to three lines on Blues Brothers that are working anyway. So, Okay, so you're, so he, so how was that class?3 (32m 19s):So I took the class and he, after like the first week he asked me, Hey is, and it was at 8:00 AM like typical, like one of those like classes that I was like, Oh my gosh, I'm gonna go in here miserable. Yeah. But he said to me early on, he said, Do you have any interest in doing this professionally? And I said, no. And he's like, and he, he said, and he said, I was like, You're hilarious. You know,1 (32m 43s):You're a hilarious Jesuit.3 (32m 45s):Yeah. I'm like, Good luck with God. He, he then he was directing, he was directing the university production of, and he asked me to audition for it. And I was, I don't even know what an audition was. That's amazing. So like, it was one of those things that I didn't really know how to do it. I didn't know much about it. And so he's like, Can you come in and audition for it? And I did and I got it and it was, it was Monts the physicist,1 (33m 12s):What the fuck is that?3 (33m 14s):Oh man, I love that play. It's Amont, it's the same, you know, it's the same. He's, you know, Exactly. It's really, it's one of those like sort of rarely done plays and it's about fictitious Albert Einstein, the real, lemme see if I, it's been so long since I recall this play. The real, So Isaac Newton and what was the other Mobius? A fictitious, So the real, I'm sorry, The real Albert Einstein, The real, the real Albert Einstein, the real Isaac Isaac New and a fake, a fictitious play scientist named Mobius.3 (33m 55s):And they were, they were all in, in a mental institution. And I1 (33m 60s):Think that I have this play and my shelves and I just have never read it before. Okay, so3 (34m 4s):Who did you play? It's extraordinary. Extraordinary. And so I played, I played a child like I did up until my mid thirties. I played a child who had like one line, and I remember it took, it took place in Germany, I believe. And I remember he's like, Do you have a German accent? I was like, No. You're1 (34m 20s):Like, I I literally am doing chemistry 90.3 (34m 23s):Yeah. I was all like, you're hilarious. Yeah. Only children do accents, You know what I mean? Like, it was totally, I was like, whatever's happening, I don't even know what's happening. And, and then I made up a European accent. I mean, I, I, I pulled it on my ass. I was like, sure, don't even remember it. But I was like, one of,1 (34m 39s):I love when people, like, recently Gina showed me a video of her in college with an accent. Let me tell you something, anytime anyone does an accent, I'm like, go for it. I think that it's so3 (34m 51s):Great. Yeah. I've got stories about, about, I mean, I'm Asian, right? So like, I mean it's been one of those things that all my life I've had to sort of navigate people being like, Hey, try this on for Verizon. I was like, Oh gosh. And you know, anyway, I can go on forever. But I did that, I had a line and then somebody saw me in the production with one line and said, Hey, this is at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, somebody from the Milwaukee Repertory Theater. It's huge1 (35m 18s):Theater. Fyi. Right,3 (35m 20s):Right. Again, it's, it's to this day. And so they asked if I would intern, if I would be considered interning while I was in school. And I said, I didn't even know what that was. So I met with them. And when I walked into that theater, it was one of those, it's one of the biggest, most extraordinary music theaters in the wor in the country. Right. Won the regional, Tony and I, again, I had no frame of reverence for it. So walking in, it was like this magical place. And so I started, I started interning right, right off the bat. And it was one of those like life changing experiences. I, I mean, to this day, the best acting I think I've ever seen, you know, face to face has been on that stage. It's, you know, many of those actors are still, I'm still in touch with to this day.3 (36m 3s):Some of them have passed away. However, it was the best training, right? I mean, I got thrown into the deep end. It was like working with some of the greats who never, no one ever knew. Right. So it really, it was really a wonderful experience. And that's when I sort of, you know, that's when I was like, Oh, I actually can do this for a living. So it was,1 (36m 21s):Oh yeah, Milwaukee rep. I've seen some amazing stuff there. And also what would've been great is, yeah, we like, I mean there's so many things that would've been great at DePaul at the theater school, but one of them would've been, Hey, there's all these regional theaters, like if you wanna make some dough, it was either like, you are gonna be doing storefront and Die of Hunger, or you're gonna be a star. Hilarious was no like, what about Milwaukee Rep? What about the Guthrie? Like all the things3 (36m 50s):Gut, Yeah. Never1 (36m 51s):Told at least. Or I didn't listen or I was like in a blackout drunk state. But like, I just feel like hilarious. I just feel like that is so amazing that you got to do that. So then, Wait, did you change3 (37m 2s):Your It wasn't, I did. I eventually did. Yes. So I have both. And so now it was one of those, like, it was, it was harrowing, but eventually, I mean, I did nothing with my chemistry degree. Nothing. Like literally nothing. That's,2 (37m 16s):Most people do nothing with their theater degree. So, so it all evens out. Wait, I have a question. Now. This is a question that would be difficult for me to answer. So I wouldn't fault to you if it's difficult for you. What do you think it was in you that this person saw and said, have you ever considered doing this professionally? I mean, just trying to be really objective about the, the asce the essence of you that you bring to the table. Always. How, what did that person identify, do you think, if you3 (37m 44s):Had to guess? You know, I'd like to say it was talent. I'd love to be that person and be like, you know, they recognized in me in one line that ordinary artist was going to emerge into the universe and play children into his thirties. I, I wish I could. It was that, I mean, honestly, I looked different than everybody else on that's a white school and Milwaukee rep, you know, God, forgive me for saying this, but it was a sensibly all white institution.1 (38m 12s):Super white. Super white. Yeah.3 (38m 14s):So in comes this little Asian guy who like they thought might have had potential and also is Asian. And I checked off a lot of boxes for them. And you know what I could easily say, like I, I could easily sort of, when, if you asked me like 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, I was talented, but now I'm like, no, I made my way in because of, because I, I checked boxes for people and, and1 (38m 37s):Talented,3 (38m 38s):You couldn't,1 (38m 39s):You3 (38m 39s):Couldn't have done it if you didn't have talent to thank you. And I can, I can, you know, whatever, I can own that now. But the, but the reality is like, I made it in and that's how I got in. And I'm okay with that. And I'm not saying that it's not taking anything away from talent, but the reality is it's like you gotta get in on the inside to work your way out. And if I didn't have that exposure early on, I certainly wouldn't have had the regional career that I did for a little while. You know? So like that credit, like you, like you said Jen, it's like, it's a, it's a huge credit. So like I would not have made it in any other way. Right. And I certainly,1 (39m 12s):Yeah, I just am like noticing also like my reaction to, Yeah, it's interesting too as other humans in this industry or any industry, it's like, it's like we have had to, especially those of us that are, you know, I'm 47 and like those of us who have made it in or sort of in for, in my, I'm just speaking for myself. Like I, I sort of, right, It could have been fucked up reasons or weird reasons that we got in the door or even filling someone's need or fantasy. But then it's like what we do with it once we're in the room, that really, really matters. And I think that yeah, regardless of how you ended up in Milwaukee rep, like I think it's smart and like I really like the idea of saying okay, like that's probably why I was there.1 (39m 58s):I checked, I've checked boxes, but Okay. But that's why a lot of people are a lot of places. And so like, let's, let's, let's, you could stop there and be like, that is some fucked up shit. Fuck them. Or you could say, Wait a second, I'm gonna still have a fucking career and be a dope actor. Okay, so you're there, you're, you're still, you graduate from Marquette with a double major, I'm assuming, right? Chemistry and, and was it theater, straight up theater or what was your degree?3 (40m 23s):It's, well, no, no, it's called, it's, it's, it's the, at the time it's called, they didn't have a theater degree. Right. It was called the, you graduated with a degree in Communications. Communications,1 (40m 32s):Right? Yes. Okay, okay. Yeah. My, my niece likes to say Tia, all the people in communications at UCLA are the dumbest people. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. That would've been me. And she's like, Well, anyway, so okay, so, so you graduate and what happens? What happens to you?3 (40m 54s):So, you know, I, I went from there. I went to, I got my equity card pretty ear pretty early cuz I went for my, I think it was my final between my, the summer, my junior year and my senior year I went to, because of the Milwaukee rep, I got asked to do summer stock at, at ppa, which is the Pacific Conservatory, the performing Arts, which is kind of like an Urda contract out in the West Co on the west coast. And so I was able to get credits there, which got me my equity card very quickly after, during that time I didn't get it at the institution, but I got like enough, you know, whatever credit that I was able to get my equity card. And again, at the time I was like, eh, what are the equity? I didn't even know know what that was really.3 (41m 34s):I don't know if anybody truly knows it when they're, when they're younger. So I had it and I went, right, I had my card and I went right to Chicago because family's there. So I was in Chicago. I did a couple of shows, I did one at at Lifeline at the time. I did one at North. Yeah. So it was nice to sort of go back and, and, and, and then I, you know, right then I, it's my favorite story, one of my favorite stories. I, I got my, my my SAG card and my after card in Chicago that summer, because at the time the union was separate. That's how old I am. And I got my SAG card doing a Tenax commercial, and I got my after card doing, I'm not sure if they're still there.3 (42m 18s):I think they are actually. It is a company called Break Breakthrough Services and they did it live industrial. Oh yeah.1 (42m 24s):They, I think they still wait live. How does that work? Yeah,3 (42m 29s):Exactly. So it's a lot of like those training, you know, you see it a lot, like the people do it, like corporate training stuff. Right. So they used, at the time it was really new. So like they used a lot of actors and they paid well.1 (42m 42s):Well, I did an Arthur Anderson one that like paid my rent3 (42m 45s):Long time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So exactly when Arthur Anderson was still a, I think I did one too. So like, they,1 (42m 53s):Rodney,3 (42m 55s):Were you in St. Charles, Illinois?1 (42m 57s):I don't know. I had to take the Amtrak. It could have been,3 (42m 59s):Yeah. In St. Charles. Right? That's where they were centered. Yes. Yeah.1 (43m 2s):Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. So you, okay, so you got your, I know our world. Do you live, Where do you live?3 (43m 8s):I'm in, I'm in LA right now. This is my home. Yeah.1 (43m 11s):Okay. Well I'm coming to your home. Okay, great. I'm in Pasadena right now. Okay. Anyway, go ahead. Oh yeah.3 (43m 17s):Okay. So we, yeah, I went to Chicago, got my cards, and then was there for, you know, a hot minute and then I moved to New York. Okay.1 (43m 25s):Wait, wait, wait. Moved. Did you have, what years were you working in Chicago? Like were we still, were Gina and I in school? What, what, what years were that were you were like, Tampa, a man Chicago.3 (43m 35s):I did God bless that commercial. Yeah, it was so good. I did, let's see here, I grad, I was there in 90, let's see, 97,1 (43m 47s):We were there. Well, Gina was graduating and I, I was, yeah. Anyway, we were there.3 (43m 52s):And then I moved to New York in 98 and then I moved to New in 98. So1 (43m 55s):You were only in Chicago a hot minute? Yeah, yeah, yeah.3 (43m 57s):Okay. Yeah. But then I came back, I came back in 2004 five to do a show at Victory Gardens. Oh. And then I did a show at Victory Gardens, and then I did a workshop at Stepin Wolf. So it was nice. Look at1 (44m 12s):Victory Gardens. Victory Gardens. That was a whole,3 (44m 15s):I'm sorry, what was that?1 (44m 16s):R i p, Victory Gardens.3 (44m 17s):Oh, yeah. I mean, well I was there pre-K. Yeah. And so, but it was, yeah, r i p I mean, r i it was truly one of the most magnificent, magnificent shows that I've been part, but I mean,1 (44m 30s):Okay, so wait, wait, wait. Okay, so why New York? Why weren't you like, I'm gonna bust out and go to LA and be a superstar on,3 (44m 38s):It's all about representation. I mean, I didn't see at the time, and you know, if you think about it, like there were people on television, but, you know, in terms of like the, the, the, it wasn't pervasive. It was like sort of every once in a while I'll turn on my TV and I'll see like Dante Bosco or I'll see like, you know what I mean? But it wasn't like I saw like, you know, I wasn't flooded with the image of an Asian American making it. However, at the time, you know, it was already Asian Americans were starting to sort of like flood the theater world, right? So I started, you know, through James c and, and Lisa Taro in Chicago, and like, people who are like, who are still friends of mine to this day, Asian American actors, they were doing theater. And so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do theater. And so I, it was just one of those, like, I went to, and I already had these credits.3 (45m 19s):I had my equity card, I had some credits. My natural proclivity was then to go to, to, to first theater in New York. So it wasn't, I didn't even think about LA it wasn't like, oh, let me, let me like think about doing television and film. So I went1 (45m 32s):To York. I just feel like in LA it's so interesting. As an actor, writing is a little different, but as an actor, it, most of us, if we plan to go to LA as actors, we're gonna fail. I just feel like you have to end up here as an actor by accident because you do something else that you love and that people like, and then they're like, I just, it's not the most welcoming. Right. Medium film and tv. So like, it's so hard. So I think by accident is really sort of the only way, or if you're just already famous for something else, but like, anyway, So you're in New York. Did you, did you love it? Wait, can I,2 (46m 9s):Can I hang on Buzz, Can I do a timeout? Because I've been wanting to ask this just a little bit back to, you know, your undergrad experience. Did you wanna be, did you love chemistry or did you just do that because Oh, you did, Okay. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, oh, finally I found something that I, like you liked chemistry.3 (46m 29s):Yeah. To this day, to this day, I still like, it's still very much like, you know, the, the, the values of a stem field is still very much in how I teach, unfortunately. Right? Like, I'm very empirical. I, I, I need to know an, I need to have answers. Like, you know, it tends to, sometimes it tends to be a lot of it, like, you know, you know, sort of heady and I'm like, and now I need, I need, I'm pragmatic that way. I need to understand like why, Right? That2 (46m 53s):Doesn't seem unfortunate to me. That seems actually really fortunate because A, you're not the only artist who likes to think. I mean, you know, what about DaVinci? Like, a lot of people like to think about art in a, in a, I mean it's really, they're, they're, they're really kind of married art and science.3 (47m 8s):Yeah. They really are people. I, I think people would, It's so funny. Like people don't see it as such, but you're absolutely right. I agree. It's so more, Yeah. There's so much more in common.1 (47m 18s):The other thing that I'm glad Gina brought that up is cuz I'm questioning like, okay, so like, I don't know about at Marquette, but like at DePaul we had like, we had, like, we had these systems of, you got warnings if you, you weren't doing great and I bet like you probably didn't have the cut system cause that just is okay, good. But okay.3 (47m 36s):Well we were, we remember we were, we weren't a conservatory, right? So we were very much a, a liberal programming.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, I love it. Oh God, how I longed for that later, right? But anyway, so what would've helped is if someone with an empirical, like someone with more a stem mind sat down with me and said, okay, like, here are the things that aren't working in a practical way for you, and here are the things that you can do to fix it. Instead, it was literally this nebulous thing where my warning said, You're not living up to your star power now that's not actually a note. So that, that, that Rick Murphy gave me, and I don't, to this day, I'm like, that is actually, so I would love if I had someone like you, not that you'd be in that system, but like this to say like, okay, like here's the reasons why.1 (48m 25s):Like there was no why we were doing anything. It was like, you just do this in order to make it. And I said, Okay, I'll do it. But I was like, what the hell? Why are we doing this? That's,3 (48m 35s):That's like going to a doctor and a doctor being like, you're sick. You know what I mean? And you're like, but can, that's why I'm here is for you to help me get to the root of it and figure it out. Right. Being like, you're,1 (48m 46s):I think they didn't know, Here's the thing, I don't think it, it3 (48m 50s):Was because they're in.1 (48m 51s):Yeah. I I don't think it was because they were, I mean, they could have been rude in all the things. I literally, now that I'm 47, looking back on that experience, I'm like, Oh, these teachers didn't fucking know what they were, how to talk. And3 (49m 3s):This is how I came. Yeah, yeah. Which is how I came back to usc. So like that's,1 (49m 7s):Anyway, continue your New York adventure. I just wanted to know.3 (49m 11s):No, no, no. New York is was great. New York is New York was wonderful. I love it. I still love it. I I literally just got back with it. That's why, remember I was texting you, emailing you guys. I I just got back, Yes. The night before. Some amazing things. My husband would move back in a heartbeat if I, if I like texted him right now. And I was like, Hey, like let's move back. The house would be packed and we'd, he'd be ready to go. He loves, we both love it. You know, Am I in love with New York? I, that, that remains to be seen. I mean, you know, as I get older that life is, it's a hard life and I, I love it when there's no responsibilities when you can like, skip around and have tea and you know, walk around Central Park and like see shows.3 (49m 53s):But you know, that's obviously not the real, the reality of the day to day in New York. So I miss it. I love it. I've been back for work many times, but I, I I don't know that the life is there for me anymore. Right. I mean, you know, six fuller walkups. Oh no. Oh no. I just, yeah, I1 (50m 11s):Just like constantly sweating in Manhattan. Like I can't navigate, It's like a lot of rock walking really fast and3 (50m 20s):Yeah. And no one's wearing masks right now. I just, I just came back and I saw six shows when I was there. No one's wearing masks. It's like unnerving. And again, like, you know, you know, not throwing politics in it. I was like, you guys, like, how are you okay with it? I'm just like, how are you not unnerved by the fact that we're cramped in worse than an airplane? And everyone's like coughing around you and we're sitting here for three hours watching Death of a Salesman. I mean, like, how was that1 (50m 43s):Of an2 (50m 45s):Yeah know?3 (50m 46s):I mean,2 (50m 47s):So what about the, so at some point you, you pretty much, I mean, you don't do theater anymore, right? You transition to doing3 (50m 55s):Oh, I know, I do. Very much so, very much. I'm also the associate, Yeah. I'm the associate artistic director of, I am a theater company, so like I'm, I'm very much theater's. I will never let go. It's, it's just one of those things I will never as, as wonderful as television and film has been. It's, it's also like theater's, you know? It's the, it's my own, it's my first child. Yeah.2 (51m 19s):Yeah.1 (51m 20s):We have guests like Tina Parker was like that, right? Wasn't,2 (51m 23s):Yeah. Well a lot of, a lot of people. It's also Tina Wong said the same thing.3 (51m 26s):He and I are different. She's part, we're in the same theater company. So Yeah. Tina's.2 (51m 30s):That's right. That's right. That's right. Okay, now I'm remembering what that connection was. So I have a question too about like, when I love it, like I said, when people have no idea anything related to performing arts, and then they get kind of thrust into it. So was there any moment in sort of discovering all this where you were able to make sense of, or flesh out like the person that you were before you came to this? Like a lot of people have the experience of, of doing a first drama class in high school and saying, Oh my God, these are my people. And never knowing that their people existed. Right. Did you have anything like that where you felt like coming into this performing sphere validated or brought some to fullness?2 (52m 14s):Something about you that previously you hadn't been able to explore?3 (52m 18s):Yeah. I mean, coming out, you know what I mean? Like, it was the first time that people talk, you know? Of course, you know, you know, I was born to, you know, like was God, I said I was born this way. But that being said, like again, in the world in which I grew up in, in Chicago and Lane Tech, it's, and, and the, you know, the technical high school and, and just the, the, the, I grew up in a community of immigrants. It's not like it was laid out on the table for one to talk about all the time. Right. It wasn't, and even though I may have thought that in my head again, it wasn't like, it was like something that was in the universe and in the, in the air that I breathed. So I would say that like when I got to the theater, it was the first time, you know, the theater, you guys we're, we're theater kids, right?3 (53m 2s):We know like every, everything's dramatic. Everything's laid, you know, out to, you know, for everyone. Everyone's dramas laid out for everyone. A the, and you know, part of it was like sexuality and talking about it and being like, and having just like, just being like talking about somebody's like ethnic background. And so it was the first time that I learned how to talk about it. Even to even just like how you even des you know, you know how you even describe somebody, right? And how somebody like, cuz that again, it's not, it wasn't like, it wasn't language that I had for myself. So I developed the language and how to speak about people. So that's my first thing about theater that I was like, oh, thank God.3 (53m 43s):You know? And then, you know, even talking about, you know, like queer, like queer was such a crazy insult back when I was a kid. And then now all of a sudden queer is now this embraced sort of like, badge of honor, Right? And so like, it was just like that and understanding like Asian and Asian American breaking that down, right? And being Filipino very specifically breaking that down, that all came about from me being in theater. And so like, I, I'm, I owe my, my life to it if you, and, and because I've, yeah, I didn't, you know, it's so funny how the title of this is I Survived Theater School for me. It's, Yes, Yes.3 (54m 23s):And I also, it also allowed theater also gave, allowed me to survive. Yes.2 (54m 31s):Theater helped you survive. Yes. That's beautiful. So in this, in the, in this spectrum or the arc, whatever you wanna call it, of representation and adequate representation and you know, in all of our lifetimes, we're probably never gonna achieve what we think is sort of like a perfect representation in media. But like in the long arc of things, how, how do you feel Hollywood and theater are doing now in terms of representation of, of specifically maybe Filipino, but Asian American people. How, how do you think we're doing?3 (55m 3s):I think we, you know, I think that there's, there's certainly a shift. You know, obviously it, we'd like it to be quicker than faster than, than it has been. But that being said, there's certainly a shift. Look, I'm being, I'll be the first person to say there are many more opportunities that are available that weren't there when I started in this, in this business, people are starting to like diversify casts. And you know, I saw Haiti's Town, it was extraordinary, by the way. I saw six shows in New York in the span of six days out of, and this was not conscious of me. This is not something I was doing consciously. Out of the six shows, I saw every single show had 90% people of color.3 (55m 43s):And it wasn't, and I wasn't conscientious of it. I wasn't like, I'm going to go see the shows that like, it just happened that all I saw Hamilton, I saw K-pop, I saw, you know, a death of a Salesman I saw. And they all were people of color and it was beautiful. So there's definitely a shift. That said, I, for me, it's never, this may sound strange, it's not the people in front of the camera or on stage that I have a problem with. Like, that to me is a bandaid. And this is me speaking like an old person, right? I need, it needs to change from the top down. And for me, that's what where the shift needs to happen for me. Like all the people at top, the, the, the people who run the thing that needs to change. And until that changes, then I can expect to starter from1 (56m 25s):The low. It's so interesting cuz like, I, I, I feel like that is, that is, we're at a point where we'd love to like the bandaid thing. Like really people really think that's gonna work. It never holds. Like that's the thing about a bandaid. The longer the shit is on, it'll fall off eventually. And then you still have the fucking wound. So like, I, I, I, and what I'm also seeing, and I don't know if you guys are seeing it, but what I'm seeing is that like, so people got scared and they fucking started to promote execs within the company of color and othered folks and then didn't train them. And now are like, Oh, well we gave you a shot and you failed, so let's get the white kid back in that live, you know, my uncle's kid back in to, to be the assistant.1 (57m 6s):And I'm3 (57m 7s):Like, no people up for success is a huge thing. Yeah. They need to set people up for success. Yes, yes, for sure.2 (57m 12s):Yeah. So it's, it's performative right now. We're still in the performative phase of1 (57m 16s):Our, you3 (57m 17s):Know, I would say it feels, it, it can feel performative. I I'm, I'm definitely have been. I've experienced people who do get it, you know what I mean? It's just, Sunday's a perfect example of somebody who does get it. But that being said, like again, it needs to, we need more of those people who get it with a capital I like, you know, up at the top. Cause again, otherwise it's just performative, like you said. So it's,1 (57m 38s):Does it make you wanna be an exec and be at the top and making choices? Yeah,3 (57m 42s):You know, I've always, people have asked me, you know, people have asked me what is the next thing for me. I'd love to show run. I've, I just, again, this is the, this is the stem part of me, right? Like, of us, like is I'm great at putting out fires, I just have been that person. I'm good with people, I'm, I'm, you know, and I've, I, you know, it's, it's, it's just one of those things that like I, I see is a, is a natural fit. But until that happens, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm also, you know, a professor is very much a version of show learning. So I've been doing that every day.1 (58m 14s):We talk about how, cause you've mentioned it several times about playing children into your thirties. So a lot, we have never had anyone on the show that I'm aware of that has had that sort of thing or talked about that thing. They may have had it. Mostly it's the opposite of like, those of us who like, I'll speak for myself, like in college, were playing old people at age, you know, 16 because I was a plus size Latina lady. And like that's what what went down. So tell me what, what that's what that journey has been like for you. I'm just really curious mostly, cuz you mentioned it a couple times, so it must be something that is part of your psyche. Like what's that about? Like what the, I mean obviously you look quote young, but there's other stuff that goes into that.1 (58m 57s):So how has that been for you and to not be, It sounds like you're coming out of that.3 (59m 1s):Yeah, I mean, look, all my life I've always been, you know, I mean I'm, I'm 5, 5 6 on a good day and I've always just been, I've always just looked young. Like, I mean, I mean, and I don't mean that like, oh I look young. Like I don't mean that in any sort of self-aggrandizing way. I literally just am one of those and you're built, like me, my one of my dear friends Ko, God rest his soul, he was always like, Rodney, you're like a little man look, looks, you're like a man that looks like a boy. And I was like that, that's hilarious. Like, and look, I for growing up little in, in high school and, and it, it was one of those things that I was always like, you know, like I was always chummy with people, but I was never sort of like, like there's a look, let's face it.3 (59m 45s):Like we're, we're a a a body conscious society and when you're, whatever it is, you can't help. There's implicit bias, right? Implicit bias, right. Supremacy at it's most insidious. And so I am not all my life, I was like always trying to, you know, the Napoleon complex of always trying to sort of be like, prove that I was older than I was.1 (1h 0m 6s):How did you do it? How did you do, how were you, what kind of techniques did you use? For3 (1h 0m 10s):Me, it wasn't even my technique. It was about doing everything and anything I possibly could. I mean, I was like president or vice president, I a gajillion different clubs. So it1 (1h 0m 18s):Was doing, it was doing, it was not like appearance. Okay, okay. So you3 (1h 0m 23s):Was actually yeah, I couldn't do anything about this. Yeah.1 (1h 0m 25s):Right. So yeah, but like people try, you know, like people will do all kinds of things to their body to try to, But for you, it sounds like your way to combat that was to be a doer, like a super3 (1h 0m 36s):Duer. And I certainly, I certainly like worked out by the time I got to college I was like working out hardcore to try and masculinize like, or you know, this. And, and eventually I did a gig that sort of shifted that mentality for me. But that being said, I think the thing that really, that the thing that, that for me was the big sort of change in all of this was just honestly just maturity. At some point I was like, you know what? I can't do anything about my age. I can't do anything about my height, nor do I want to. And when that shifted for me, like it just ironically, that's when like the maturity set in, right? That's when people started to recognize me as an adult.3 (1h 1m 17s):It's when I got got rid of all of that, that this, this notion of what it is I need to do in order for people to give me some sort of authority or gimme some sort of like, to l

Today I go over the method I use for introducing story writing to kids in later First Grade and early Second or Third Grade.  I will model the outline and then write a short story.Here are the highlights:0:18  Somebody, Wanted, But, So, Then0:42  Somebody1:28 Wanted1:40 But1:50 So2:14 Then2:23  Review it2:52 Writing out the story - Somebody3:26 Wanted, But3:55 So4:15 Then4:23 IllustrationsJoin my Facebook GroupIf you happen to use any of these ideas at home or in your classroom, leave a comment below and let me know how they go! :) Also, if you share any of the games from Savvy Teaching Tips, please tag me on Instagram @savvyteachingtips so I can see!! You can also use the hashtag: #savvyteachingtips**SIGN UP FOR MY EMAIL LIST FOR THE LATEST UPDATES, TIPS, and FREEBIES!**Be sure to subscribe and click the bell to see all my future videos.MY BLOGMY STOREMY INSTAGRAMMY TIKTOKMY FACEBOOK PAGE:MY YOUTUBE CHANNEL:CONTACT: sandra@savvyteachingtips.netThanks for stopping by today!Sandra

Intro: Emceeing a memorial serviceLet Me Run This By You: Fear and the paranormalInterview: We talk to Tina Parker aka Francesca Liddy about SMU, Blake Hackler, Andre DeShields, Maria Irene Fornes' Mud, Kitchen Dog Theatre, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul, Robert Altman's Dr. T & the Women, Birdbath play, Perpetual Grace. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez2 (10s):This, and I'm Gina Pulice1 (11s):We went to theater3 (12s):School together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.4 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of3 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):So what does mean, What does it mean to mc a memorial?1 (40s):Yeah. I mean, I don't know what to call it. I I people keep it host. I'm not hosting cuz the family's hosting. So what it means is that I'm trusted, I think to not, Well one, I've done this twice, you know, I've lost both my parents. So I like know the drill about how memorials go, but also I think I'm kind of a safe person in that I will step in if someone goes kaka cuckoo at the memorial and I also have some, you know, able like, presenting skills. Yes. Right. And I'm entrusted to like guide the ship if it, and if it goes off kilter, I will say to somebody, Hey, why don't you have a seat?1 (1m 23s):This is like, we'll have time for this later if you really wanna get crazy or whatever. But that's, and I think it's just sort of steering, steering the grief ship maybe. I don't know. Yeah, look, I don't know. I like that. It's gonna be2 (1m 34s):Interesting, dude, people, Oh, honestly, they should have that for, you know, in other cultures where they have like professional grievers and professional mourners, it, it sounds a little silly, but at the same time it's like, no, this is right. Because no, we don't, we never know how to do it. Unless you've lived in a really communal environment where you, you, you, you know, you attend the rights, the ceremonies or rituals of everybody in your village, then you really don't know until, usually until it's thrust upon you. And then it's like, well, you're supposed to be grieving and then like hosting a memorial service. It's such a weird thing. So this could be another career path for you. You could be a professional, you know, funeral mc, I actually, honestly, I hate, I don't hate it.2 (2m 21s):I love it. Well,1 (2m 22s):And also could be my thank you, my rap name funeral Mc instead of like young mc funeral mc, but no. Yeah, I, I have no, and it's so interesting when it's not my own family, right? Like these are family friends, but they're not, it's not my mother who died. I don't have the attachment to I people doing and saying certain things. I don't feel triggered. Like being, I grew up a lot in this house that I'm sitting in right now, but it's not my, it was not my house. So I don't have any attachment emotionally like appendages to the items in the house where the girls do.1 (3m 2s):So I'm able to be here and, and, and be like, this is, this is, I'm okay here. I don't feel overwhelmed. And I think that is a sign that I'm doing the right thing in terms of helping out in this way if I got here and I was like, Oh my God, it's too much. But I don't feel that. And I also think that like, one of the things that I did with Nancy and Dave over the last couple years is like, they were literally the only adults. Well, I'm an adult, only older adults my parents age who are like, Yes, go to California, you need to get out of here, get away from this. They were the, so I that made me trust them. And then we stayed, we had like weekly phone conversations, just like they would each be on a line.1 (3m 46s):It was hilarious. And we would talk for hours like maybe once every two weeks, a couple hours. And it was really like a parenting experience. So I feel very close to them and I, what I'm learning is that like, even if other people have different relationships with people, you can have your own. So I know that no one's perfect, but these were allowed, like, you're allowed Gina to have your own relationship with your mom and with your even dead people than other people have.2 (4m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Back to the plane for a minute. In these situations, what do the flight attendants do, if anything?1 (4m 28s):Oh, well I always talked to them before because I, so what I say, I always like to, because Dave, who's, who's a hypnotherapist and a psychologist, he said, Listen, you know, he used to be afraid. And he said his thing was talking to the flight attendants before and just saying like, Hey, I have a phobia. I'm a therapist. I'm working through it. Like just to make contact, right. I don't, I didn't say that exactly, but what I said was, Listen, I say, Hi, how are you? We struck up a strike up, a teeny conversation in that moment where I'm going to my seat and I say, Listen, I'm going to Chicago to like mc a memorial for like someone who's like my mom. So if you see me, so if you see me crying like it's normal. And they're like, Oh, thanks for telling me. And they're, they usually don't get freaked out.1 (5m 11s):I'm also not like intense about it. They do nothing. And you know what they, I think and, and she said, Thanks for telling me. I really appreciate it. Because I think they'd rather know what the fuck is going on with someone than thinking someone's about to hijack the goddamn plane.2 (5m 29s):Exactly. I was thinking that exact same thing. I was thinking like, especially right now, all they know is it's heightened emotion or it's not, you know, like they, they, they have no, they would have no way of differentiating, you know, what's, what's safe and what's dangerous. So I can't believe nobody's ever done this before. But we, another project that we could do is like airplane stories. I mean there is such, this is one of the few points of connection that humanity still has people that is who can afford to you fly a plane anywhere. But this thing of like, it sucks and it's dirty and it's growth and people, people's, you know, hygiene comes into question and if they're sitting next to you and it's uncomfortable and it's not the glamorous thing that it used to be even when we were kids.2 (6m 21s):So it's, it's one of those moments unless you have a private plane where you're sort of forced to reckon with like the same thing that everybody else in humanity has to reckon with. But even on a private plane, and I would argue even especially on a private plane, there is the fear of your imminent death. Like the, the, it doesn't matter if you're afraid of flying or not, it crosses your mind.1 (6m 42s):Well, yeah. And I, my whole thing is like, I, I don't know what would happen if we all started talking about that on a plane. So like what would that be like? So, okay, when I was traveling last with home from San Francisco with Miles, I sat next to this woman, Miles was in the middle and the woman on the aisle was this woman. We were both afraid. And we had this idea for a fricking television show, right? Which was two, it's called the Fearful Flyers and then two people on each side and a famous person in the middle seat. And we would interview them as we, we flew to one, take our mind off it, but two really delve into our own fear and did the person of any fear and get to know a celebrity at the same time.1 (7m 27s):Now she never texted me back. So she's clear, clearly she's not that interested. Cause I was like into it. I was like, what if we get, I know, I know. And she's not even in the industry. She's like, so, but I was like, hey fearful flyer friend, I think we should talk about our idea. Crickets radio silence. So whatever. She's moved on. Like she just used me for the, for the Yeah. No entertainment, which is fine,2 (7m 53s):Heightened emotional space. She, she bonded with you, but now she's back to like all of her armor and all of her gear and she doesn't wanna think about flying until she has1 (7m 60s):To. No. Right, right. Exactly. It's not something that she wants to delve into on her free time, you know, So, which I don't blame her. But anyway, so yeah, it's an interesting thing. Like I literally ha I sit out the window, I sit by the window and I have to look out the window. And this guy next to me who I met, who's like a vet and who is like, was self-medicating with alcohol and who is a gay vet was really interesting. But he, everyone copes differently. But it was in, at one point I thought, oh, I actually don't wanna be distracted by him because I'm really doing some deep work with myself as I look out the window and also your version of like getting through this experience, I, it does not feel safe to me, which is drinking and like just, I cannot distract myself.1 (8m 52s):People are like, Oh, read a book. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? That's like telling someone I don't know who's having a seizure to read a book. Like you, you, it's not gonna work. Right. I look out the window and, and do therapy with myself. That is what I2 (9m 7s):Do. I love it. That's great. I think everybody who is listening to this, who has any kind of fear or intimidation around flying should, should do that. I don't know if you were getting to this, but I thought you were gonna say something about like how, Oh, you said, you said what if we all talked about it now? Every positive communal experience with the exception of theater that I've ever had, I've gone into unwillingly at the beginning and you know, sort of rejecting it and then come out the other side. Like that was amazing. You know, the thing that you experience, the communal thing, the thing of like, we're all in this together, which we are all like so actually parched for, but we, people like me would never really kind of actively sort of approach.2 (9m 48s):It has to be thrust upon me these like healing group experiences, but amen. In fact, they could make a whole airline that is sort of about that. Like this is, you know, this is the emotional express. Like this is where we're gonna talk about our fear of flying. Cuz everybody's crying in airplanes too. Being in the actual airplane does something to you that makes everybody much more vulnerable than there are otherwise.1 (10m 13s):It's so crazy. I agree. It could be emotional express and you could deal with it, but you would know getting on this plane, like people are gonna talk about their feelings and you shouldn't get on it. So the guy on the aisle2 (10m 26s):Yesterday, No,1 (10m 28s):No alcohol. Oh yeah, no alcohol. The guy on the aisle like hated everything about the flight, Right? He was like shaking his head. He was annoyed. But then he had a Harvard sweatshirt on. I was like, oh my god. But he was like middle aged guy, like coating or I don't know what he was doing, but he like hated everything. He shook his head when they told him to like put his bag under the seat. I'm like, listen, you know what's going on here. This is not your first time in an airplane, Why are you shaking your head? But okay. But then he said something that was hilarious and I said, I'm gonna put that in a script. Which, which was, I don't even know what he was responding to. It was probably my seat mate saying something. But he said, Listen, it's not ideal, but nobody asked me.2 (11m 13s):And1 (11m 13s):I, I'm gonna, and I said to him, I said, Listen, I am gonna put that in a script. Like the mother-in-law is meeting her future daughter-in-law and, and says, Listen, she's not ideal, but nobody asked me. And he laughed and then he said, it's true. And I said, Yeah, I know it's true. That's why. And so then he was like, then he was like free to talk about his disgruntledness, which was fine cuz then it was like he was more human. But at, he was hilarious. He was like the, like he's one of those people that like during and it was really turbulent at one point. And I was like, Okay, here we go. It's turbulence part of the deal. It's okay, fine. And he was like, just like angry at the turbulence.2 (11m 57s):I love1 (11m 58s):It. Which I thought was brilliant. Yeah, I'm like, but like, who are you angry at? Just like the turbulence. And he was like, ugh. And like angry at air flow. I don't know if2 (12m 7s):At air current1 (12m 8s):He was like pissed off. I was laughing. I was like, this guy's awesome. He just hates everything. It's, it is not ideal, but nobody asks me.2 (12m 17s):So what's so great about that? And so what's so great about you is like, you enga that's how you always engage people from this perspective of like, yeah, whatever is going on with you that you think is like nobody else wants to hear about, I want to hear about it. Because that's because that's what you spend your time doing. You know, bravely engaging with yourself. They, we need a person like you in all of these sort of like high stress situations that people have to do. Usually at some point in your life you have to get on an airplane. Usually at some point in your life you you have to speak, you know, in front of a group of people. You have to have the funeral. We need these sherpa's, these guides to kind of give us, basically just give us permission to have our own human experience that we have somehow talked ourselves out of having, even though it's completely unavoidable.1 (13m 3s):Yeah. And I also really respect people who now who have to just, I mean I, it's not my way, but like, shut down and they're like, Nope, I'm just gonna, they can do it. They're like, either it's drinking or whatever it is to distract themselves. They're like in it, whether it's the disgruntledness or other people, they like just go to sleep immediately. They like sit down and they're like out. And I don't think it's relaxation. I think they're just like checked. They're like,2 (13m 30s):I have, Oh yeah, no, they're, I cannot be conscious right now. I wonder what makes the difference between people who are afraid of flying and not, I have never once felt afraid of flying, even during turbulence. I've never once had the thought like, this plane is going down. I mean, maybe that changed a little bit when I had kids and I was always the one in the aisle, like holding, I had to hold my babies the entire flight because, because it must be a natural thing to be freaked the fuck out to be on an airplane. Even a baby freaks out to be on an airplane. So there's something to it. But what makes a difference between people who just, I've never had that fear.1 (14m 8s):I I know it is a foreign, it is like it is. I don't know either. And I, I I, there's other people like that have, What was the fear someone was talking about the other day? Oh, I have a friend who like literally cannot have their blood drawn. They have to go under almost. Wow. They almost have to be sedated to have their blood drawn. Me. I I stick out my arm. I don't give a, it's just not my thing. Yeah. I don't have any charge at it at all.2 (14m 37s):Well,1 (14m 38s):You could take my blood right now.2 (14m 40s):I used to have this theory that you grew up afraid of the things that your parents basically were afraid of so that they therefore communicated to be afraid of. But that I now think that that's completely untrue. My daughter is scared to death of spiders. She, she's haunted by this fear that when she goes into the bathroom at night, there's gonna be a spider. If there's the tiniest and we live in the woods, there's sp there's all kinds of insects that make that their way into our house. I have, there's not a spider I've ever encountered that I've been afraid of now. Mice and rats. That's what I'm afraid of. My mom was afraid of snakes. She did not transfer when I was younger.2 (15m 20s):I felt afraid of them too. And then one day I was like, eh, it's fine. Yeah. I don't think I have any coral with these snakes actually. I think it's completely fine. Right. So I, I don't, So it's something inherent in us that identifies an ob I think it's maybe like we've, I for whatever reason, this becomes the object of all of your fears. And it could be a spider, it could be a plane, it could be, you know, clowns. Like it's for a lot, for a lot of people. It's1 (15m 47s):Fun. Oh remember, Okay, Larry Bates, who we went to school with, and he's open, I think about this. Yeah, he is cuz he's, he's talked about it. I, he had a fear of muppets, like an intense Muppet fear. And I was like, Wait, are you, I thought it was a joke. I was like, Wait, Muppets, Like, okay, they're a little weird, but like, but like a phobia of a Muppet. And I was like, what the actual fuck. I couldn't like,2 (16m 14s):I just, that's it's not, dude, my version of that is I was afraid of mariachi bands.1 (16m 22s):Wait, mariachi bands?2 (16m 24s):Yes.1 (16m 25s):Like bands. Yeah.2 (16m 26s):Well, so growing up, growing up in, well, we love Mexican boots, so we were always going out for Mexican food. And back then, I don't know why every time you went to have Mexican food, you know, dinner, there was a mariachi band. Like, I, I, it doesn't, I haven't seen a mariachi band in such a long time, but it used to be that you could not go out for a Mexican restaurant dinner without a mariachi band. And I, it got to a point where they couldn't, first it was like, we can't go to have Mexican food anymore. It was like, we can't go to a restaurant. I just, I didn't want these mariachis and, and it must have just, I think it was the bigness of the hat and the loudness of the music right next to your table when you think about it, it's actually, so it's strange, right?2 (17m 9s):Yeah. That you're sitting at your table, like with your family looking, you know, whether you're gonna order the chalupa or the enchilada. And then it's just like, extremely loud, very good, but extremely loud and, and in huge presence. People sitting, you know, right next to your table.1 (17m 24s):Yeah. I mean it doesn't really make a lot of sense as a business move either. Like what, why it would like, it would like make people, unless you're drunk again, if there's alcohol involved, it changes everything. But you can't really drink as a toddler. So, but I think that like, maybe there's something, I wonder if there's something about that of like all the attention being on you. Like, listen, when there's, like, there are kids I know at restaurants when they, when it's their birthday and they come over to sing that they fucking hate it. It's too much attention on them. And adults too. And I can kinda understand that. It's like too much pressure, right? There's like a2 (17m 59s):Pressure. Well, you just unlocked it for me now I know exactly what it is. You said something about being drunk and I think at that age, I have always equated loud and raucous with drunk. You know, as a kid, I knew when anybody in my family was being loud raus. And, and actually, I'm sorry to say even especially when they were having fun. When I'm in a room, when I'm in a house and everybody's laughing, you know, my, it's like, I I I I just get that fear. I just get that fear sort of rise up. It's different now that I'm older and I've, you know, been in more situations where that hasn't been scary to me. But that's what it was with the mariachis, The loud and the festive and the music meant like, somebody's going to say something that they really regret.2 (18m 44s):Somebody's gonna get a dui, somebody's going to jail.1 (18m 50s):Hey, let me run this by you.2 (18m 58s):So imperfectly into the thing I wanted to run by you today, given that it is Halloween season and this episode will air the day after Halloween. But so I, you know, Well, actually no. Okay, I'll, I'll start with this. I am one of those people that desperately seeks paranormal experiences. And I'm almost always disappointed when I'm, when I'm actively seeking it, going to a psychic, going to a medium, going to, it's, oh, you know, it's, I'm never the one in the crowd where the medium goes. Like, I've got a message for you.2 (19m 40s):And I've, I've gotten to the point where I'm like, my family's like just not that into me. They don't wanna, you know, the people have passed over, like, don't wanna, don't wanna come talk to me, don't wanna give me messages. But I I, if you're out there, if you're listening, ancestors drop a line. I'd love to know what the deal is. I'd love to know what messages you might have from me because I actually really do believe that that can happen. Maybe it just needs to happen with people who are on a higher spiritual plane than any of,1 (20m 9s):I mean, I don't, I don't believe that for a sec. I mean, it could be true. What do I know? But I think, look, I do believe right, that most shit happens when you're not expecting it paranormal or not. Like all this shit that has happened to me, most of it has been not at all when I would've planned or thought or, and so I have one ghost story. I don't know if you know, it happened in Great Barrington, Do you know this story?2 (20m 42s):Yes. But tell it again. It's a great story.1 (20m 44s):Okay. Okay. I could care. I was like 21. All I wanted was to be skinny and have boys like me. I didn't give a fuck about ghosts, I didn't care about anything. So I'm in Great Barrington in edits, Wharton's the old Lady author's house, and I'm the stage manager. And this guy I was in love with was in this play that took place. The monkeys paw took place in the, they were doing an adaptation of the Monkeys Paw in Edith Wharton's parlor on Halloween. It was like the creepiest thing, but I didn't give a fuck because I was in love with the guy who was seriously haunted. Yes, yes, yes. Super, super Berkshire's, whatever. I didn't care.1 (21m 24s):I was like, ah, I wanna, I want this guy to like me. I don't give a fuck about any of that. Okay. So I, my job was to literally move the furniture after the rehearsal to the storage room. Okay. In this big mansion. Okay, fine. They're getting notes and I'm just probably daydreaming about how I can make this guy like me. And I'm moving furniture and I go into this little storage room and of course people talk about the house is so big and haunted, I could care less. So I'm in there and down the road from the house is a barn where they're doing the play Ethan from and Okay, Ethan from, there's like a sledding accident in the play. So he's on a sled and they start screaming and the guy is hurt.1 (22m 4s):So another show was going on at the, in the barn. And I'm like, ah, okay. So I'm moving the furniture and I hear this sled yelling and okay, I'm like, Oh, should they, I wish they would shut up. I was like, this is loud yelling. So then I, we finish our rehearsal and we're walking up back, me and the cute guy and some other people, and all I'm thinking about is how can I get this guy like me? And like, literally, and also now I see pictures of him and I'm like, Dear God. Anyway, so, so, oh my God, why didn't someone, I mean, you should, someone should have just slapped me like 10 times and been like, No. But anyway, but that's what I was, I was all about him. I had a thing for Canadians. Anyway, so, so like, I just loved the guys that was like international to me, Canadians.1 (22m 48s):Anyway, okay. So it was like all the Canadians. So we're walking in the dark to our cars and, and I say, and we walk by the barn and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you guys, they were so loud tonight when I was moving the furniture. Like they should shut up. Like, I, I wonder how it's gonna be when we're doing the Monkeys Past show. We're gonna hear Ethan from, and like every, there's like four of us. Everyone stopped and I'm like, What, what's wrong with you? Two or three or whatever. And they were like, like turned white. I've never seen this happen in human beings. And I was like, What is happening? I thought I said something wrong or like, of course, like I was bad. And I'm like, What?1 (23m 28s):And they're like, Oh God. And I was like, What? What are you punk me? What's happening? And they're like, There was no show tonight.2 (23m 37s):Ooh. Even though I knew that was coming the story, it still gave me a chill. Today on the podcast we are talking to Tina Parker. Yes. Tina Parker, the one and only Francesca Litty from the Smash Hit series, critically acclaimed and me acclaimed Better Call Saul and Breaking Bad Tina's a delight. She's a director, she directs for theater. She's got a theater company in Dallas, Texas called Kitchen Dog. And she was so much fun to talk to and I just know you are going to love our conversation with Tina Parker.2 (24m 33s):Oh, nice. Okay. Well I wanna get all into Kitchen Dog, but I've gotta start first by saying congratulations Tina Parker. You survived theater school5 (24m 44s):So long ago. My Lord, so2 (24m 46s):Long ago. Yeah. I I have no doubt that, you know, the ripple we, we've learned, it doesn't matter how long ago you graduated, the, the feeling of survival persists and the ripple effects of it persists.5 (24m 59s):Absolutely.1 (25m 1s):When I had longer hair, people used to always ask if I played Bob Oden Kirk's assistant on better. And I would say no. But I adore the human that plays her. It's brilliant performance and I love it. So2 (25m 17s):There you go. It really is. And I, and I wanna talk a lot about Better Call Saul, but you went to smu, which I did. You interviewed the current dean, I think he's the dean. Blake Hackler.5 (25m 30s):Yeah. Chair of Acting I think.2 (25m 31s):Chair of Acting. Okay, fantastic. I'm I'm assuming you guys weren't there. No, you never crossed5 (25m 36s):Path. But we've actually, he and I have crossed paths a bit professionally nowadays. Yes. Because we've, we, Kitchen Dog has done a few of his new play readings cuz he's a playwright also. So he's, he had at least two or three plays read in our New Works festival and he's always helped me out when I need recommendations for young people to come in and read. Cause you know, we're all old at Kitchen Dog.2 (25m 56s):Fantastic. Shout out to Blake. So SMU is a fantastic school. Did you always wanna go there? Did you apply to a bunch of different places? How did you pick smu?5 (26m 9s):Well, it's kind of a ridiculous story. I, my senior year of high school, you know, of course like a lot of people went to theater school. You're all like, I'm the superstar. My high school. Like, all right, I get all the leads. I'm Auntie Mame and Mame. You know what? Ridiculous.1 (26m 25s):I just have to say I was Agnes Gooch and I, I was the Gooch. Were you5 (26m 30s):Agnes? I was ma I was anti Mame in the stage play version. Oh yes.1 (26m 35s):I wa yeah, yeah, me too. I was Agnes Gooch. I wanted to be anti Mame, but so anyway, always a goo, always a Gooch. Never a Mame over here. But anyway, So tell us, So you were the start.5 (26m 46s):Yeah, you know, like everybody who went to theater school, everybody was the start at their high school. But I, my dad unfortunately had a stroke when I was a, and he was only, my parents are super young and so he was 40, I don't know. So it was very unusual. It happened like at the beginning of my senior year. And so my family was, it was all kind of chaotic. My senior year was very chaotic and I was also like the president of the drama club and, and we, you know, and all the people, you know, all the competitions every weekend. And so it was just a, there was a lot going on and my family stuff got into disarray because my dad ended up losing his job because he was sick for so long. And, and it was so I screwed up.5 (27m 28s):Like I missed a lot of applications. I never, I didn't really, it was one of those where it just kind of snuck up on me and I didn't really know the places I wanted to go. I had missed like certain deadlines because of the fall. And so I, SME was still one of the ones that was open. And so I did, was able to schedule an audition cuz you had to get into the school, but also, you know, get into the theater program. Like you could get into the school, not get into the theater program, you know, it is what it is. Luckily I still had time to do the audition, so I did that and then my grandmother literally walked my application through the admin, through the academic part because something I had missed, I think.5 (28m 13s):And my grandmother is very like, I don't know, it's hard to say no to my grandmother. So she went and they took this great care of her and she just kind of walked through and she's like, told the whole situation. And I mean, I had good grades. Like it wasn't, you know, like I did get in, I got scholarships and all this shit. Like I had, I had good grades, so it wasn't like I was like, my grandmother did it, you know, But she did walk it through. She's a thousand percent charmer. And then the, as far as the audition goes, I was an hour late because I got lost. And then there's this weird horseshoe at SMU cuz you know, go ponies or whatever bullshit that is, there was no parking.5 (28m 55s):And so I was like, got, was super late and I was just like, just like so sweaty and like, you know, you, everything's high drama when you're in high school, right? So you're like, this is is my last chance to be a doctor. I'm gonna have to work at the, you know, fucking shoe store that I was working at or whatever. It was forever. And so1 (29m 15s):I would, I, after I became an actor, I was still working at the cheese store after I went to, But the other thing I wanna say is like, also your grandma sounds like charming, but also like, she might be in the mob.5 (29m 25s):Well, yeah, she's totally like, yeah, I mean, I don't know. She's, she's she, she can get it done. She's the wife of a Methodist minister too. So she, she, she knows how she can, she can read a person and figure out like, this is what you need, you know, And she's just sweet, like, you know, she's charmer. But I ran into someone else's audition, like that's what I, I ran and they then the school, the school is all built, the school is all built crazy. So if you don't know the school, you get lost. And I was like, went and I going in the wrong places and I was an hour late and I was like, and like, I literally like, this is it not open the door. And they're like, somebody's in there like, like doing the thing. And I'm like, oh my god. And they're like, you know, and I was like that.5 (30m 7s):And I was just like, Oh God. And so I go and sit in the room and I just remember them coming in. I was like, I'm really sorry, you know, like the kid was like, whoever, I don't think they got in. And they, I just remember them looking at me like, you know, and they left and I was like, great, this is awesome. And then I go into my audition, which I chose the worst pieces, like the worst of course. Like, I think it was like, I can't even remember the name of the playwright, but it's like a really, really dramatic monologue from like bird bath, you know, My head is not a hammer, like something ridiculous. And then I also chose to sing, which I'm not the greatest. I mean, I can sing, I can sing karaoke, but not like seeing like I'm a musical theater actor. I, I, that's not me.5 (30m 47s):I think I chose seeing like the something that Nights on Broadway or some bullshit, like, you know, the Neon Lights On? No, No. On Broadway. Like ridiculous. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And they were like, luckily, luckily I did get in the interview part and then they're like, turn your, they're like, turn your monologue into standup comedy.2 (31m 6s):Oh wow. I never heard of that in audition. What a cool tactic.5 (31m 10s):Well, and it was also, I think they could tell that I was so freaked out and so nervous, but then that like, the interview portion went great. And so they're like, you know, then they were like, Hey, try like play around with this. And then like, the bad song that I had selected that I had practiced with my cousin who could play guitar or something, they're like, do some dance moves with it. So I was just like, I don't dance, but I started doing these ridiculous things and they're like, Yeah, good. They laughed and you know, I, I think it also let me relax. They're2 (31m 38s):Like, you are crazy enough to be in theater school. Wait, you guys, should we have a documentary series about people who are auditioning for theater school? Because honestly like the stakes are so high for so many people. I bet there's 1 billion stories. Yeah, I mean, some of which we've heard on, on, on the podcast, right? Boz? Yeah,1 (31m 58s):I think we do. I think we do. And all the, I just remembered that in my monologue was from the play about the woman who traps the rapist in her house and puts him in a fireplace.5 (32m 10s):Oh, the burning bed or whatever. Not the burning bed, but the, Yeah,1 (32m 14s):Yeah. And it's, it's, it's William Masterson.5 (32m 17s):Yes,1 (32m 18s):Yes, yes. And, and she has a fire poker and she's poking the rapist and I am 16 at the time. Oh, and I what? And a virgin, not that that really matters, but like the whole thing is not good. And why, why did I do that? But yet I got, But5 (32m 35s):That's what this piece was the same thing. It was so dark. And so like, this person is mentally ill and she's like, I get, there's not a hammer.1 (32m 41s):Don't hit me bear.5 (32m 42s):And you're just like, What?1 (32m 44s):I'm like it would've been, I mean I know this is terrible to say, but what if they told me to turn that into standup? Like that would be dark, dark, dark humor. But any, Okay, so you, you clearly like, what I love is that smu like knew how to take a teenagers anxiety and like shift it and so good on them, those auditioners like good on them. So you did that, you did you walk out of there feeling like, okay, like it started off really wonky, like me being late, but like I have a chance. Or did they tell you, when did they tell you5 (33m 15s):I felt good like that? When I, after I left I was like, okay, you know, like I wasn't sure like, cuz I was like, it was weird that they told me to change it to comedy, but I think it was good, you know, And like I felt like the interview part went good and they were, at the time, my class, this was the first year that they, they eliminated the cuts program. So what happened is they instead they had the BFA acting track and then they had, well what was proposed anyways, they changed our, what our degree was, but it was supposed to be ba in theater studies. And so if you were interested in directing, you know, playwriting, whatever, stage management, tech, whatever, and then acting you could also have, so you kind of chose focuses, but that was it.5 (34m 2s):And it had more of a little more academic focus. And so cuz before me, the classes, everybody went in as an actor. You did first two years and then they kind of just cut you basically. And were like, you're in this free fall of like a program that wasn't really planned.1 (34m 18s):Yeah. I mean like, that's how our school was too. And like half the people didn't end up graduating and it was a racket and now they don't do it anymore. But that5 (34m 27s):Was a huge, yeah, they stopped my year.1 (34m 30s):Okay. So, so was it that the people that maybe weren't get getting into the acting program went to theater studies? Is that how it was proposed?5 (34m 37s):I think that's what they were trying to do. I think they were also trying to figure out a way, or they were try some people left. I think they were also trying to keep their numbers up. And I think they also had people who were like, Hey we're, I'm an actor but I'm also a director. Why can't you make, get me some classes here? You know, like, I wanna have the class. If you're gonna cut me, that's fine. But like, I'm interested in these things too. Can there be a program? And so they kind of were building that program, like they had it out there, you know, and that when they took our class, we had very set paths of like, and we had the same two years together as a group. So freshman and sophomore year. And then we split into our kind of disciplines and they kind of still, like when I was, when we were juniors, kind of like, here's some things and we're like, okay, but our class was kind of a hard ass and we're like, where's our, where's our, where's this class?5 (35m 24s):Where's that? So we were always in the office saying, no, this, this like afterthought of a class, this should then fly and you know, I'm gonna direct a main stage or I wanna direct a studio. And they're like, Oh. And they're like, No, this is how it's gonna work or whatever. So like, yeah, me and Tim and Tim, who actually is one of my coworkers, a kitchen dog and then a couple other folks were pr I think we turned the, the chair at the Times hair white because we would go in there and be like, No, this isn't gonna work.2 (35m 53s):You just, you just made me realize that our, this, all the schools who had cut programs who didn't have another track to go into after were missing out on such a revenue stream. Right? Like our, at our school. Yeah. All the people who got cut like went to this other college and I'm thinking, what, what, When was the meeting where somebody goes, Oh my god, you guys, we should just have something here for them to do instead of sending them to another school. That's hilarious. Well,5 (36m 17s):And I think too, they find like, you know, like that there's kids that truly have talent for, you know, like a playwright or director, but then they're also really good actors. Which I think, you know, I think it's really good for people who are like, I am primarily like, I'm a mix Tim I would say who my coworker is is primarily a director, but, but it's great for both of us to go through acting, you know, like that's been, that's, but1 (36m 38s):I'm noticing is there's no, like our school had no foresight into anything, so it was like they didn't, So that's a problem in a, in a university.5 (36m 49s):Yeah. It, here's problem. Right.1 (36m 50s):So okay, so at your school, what was your experience like on stage the star? Were you And then, Oh, okay. And then, and then my other follow up question is, man, the follow up question is you're launching into the professional world. What did your school do or not do to prepare you? And what was your departure like into like, okay, now you're 22, live your life.5 (37m 11s):Bye. I would say for, I was kind of a mix. Like I had a lot of opportunities while I was there and some self created as far as directing opportunities. And we had an interesting system of like, there was a studio theater and we were able to have, we had this studio system, which a lot of non-majors would come and see plays because they were required, blah, blah blah. But so we got to direct a lot, you know, And, and Tim really fought and he got directed main stage and I was, I was, my senior year I was a lead in a play, you know, like just all sorts of things. Like I had a lot of great opportunities at smu. I think I had some also, I had some good teachers and directors while I was there.5 (37m 53s):So when I was a junior, you know, they had Andre De Shields in to, to as a guest artist, which really stirred the pot because he was not about like, let's talk about your objectives, let's talk, let's really do some table work. Like, he was like, Why aren't you funny? I don't get that shit. Like, go, go out. Why aren't you funny like this? Or come up with some, some dancing or whatever, you know. He was awesome. Like, I loved it. Like cuz we were doing funny thing happen on the way to the forum. I was one of the, you know, concubines or whatever the dance, I was Tinton Nebula, the bell, the supposed to be a, like a bell ringer, you know, like sexy dancer. And he said, I reminded him of some lady he lived with in Amsterdam. So instead I was a clogger and had bells and had giant hair that went out to here.5 (38m 37s):And yeah. And so he was like, he was great. Like, and but it really gave you the experience, it makes a lot of people crazy because he was like not interested in their process. What he was interested in was like results and like hitting your marks and like, you know, like he had sent me away and he was like, come up with 16 beats to that end I'm gonna see something funny. And so I came back in and did it and he was like, yes. You know, like it was, it was awesome. Like he would, he would really was a real collaborator.2 (39m 3s):That's fantastic. And, and actually I'm so glad you told that story because, and I, I won't, I wanted you to get back to launching and everything, but the thing about the Andre Des Shield story that you just told, I can see why you like that because that seems like you a person who has the training and the gravitas and whatever to like take their craft very seriously, but at the end of the day, you're there to entertain and get the job done, right? Like you don't, you're not so precious about your own self. Yeah. Which is really interesting.5 (39m 30s):No, and I mean it was, it was so important I think just because, you know, like everywhere you, everywhere you go like, you know, you don't always work at the same place and everybody's process and everybody's way of rehearsal or whatever's wildly, wildly different. And so I thought it was great because you know, you're not going to go always walk into some place where they're gonna coddle you or, or, or take the time or whatever, you know, like it's different.1 (39m 56s):The other thing is that like we, what I just hit me is that we've interviewed a ton of people and I'm trying to like think about like what does a conservatory do wrong is I think they forget that it's about entertainment. Like there becomes such a focus on process and inner work. What about the fucking entertainment value of like entertaining the audience? Like that goes out the window, which is why the shit is not funny most of the time. Cause it's like so serious, you're like, no, this is a fucking farse. Like make people laugh. Yeah. And it's like, I love that, that you're, you remind me of like an entertainer and I, I feel like I needed entertainment Conservatory.5 (40m 35s):Not, well I would say that, I mean I still use a lot of the training that I used at SMU like, like at Kitchen Dog. I mean this was founded by SMU grads. So you know, a lot of the doing table work and talking about what you want and all that kinda stuff like that is definitely part of what we do. But what was cool about Andre and I love and Des Shields with all my heart like was that you found a way to make your process work in his framework and, and he got results. Like the, our show was funny as hell, like in the singing was great, the dancing was great and it looked great cuz the Eckhart's did the costumes and all the sets and it felt like we were in a professional show.5 (41m 15s):Like it was, it was exciting and fun to do. So I thought it was a great way to kind of get ready for what it was gonna be like. Cuz I remember auditioning for the show and he was like, Where's your headshot? And we're like, nobody told us. And he's like, This is an audition, why don't you have, I don't understand why you don't have a headshot. And you're just, just like, oh God. Like, and it was embarrassing, you know? And then he was like, All right, I wanna do the, he's doing some improvy things in that in the thing and people couldn't get like, people were like, and he is like, just jump in man. And he was like fantastic. And you know, you get a call back and you're like, okay, I see how this works. So that was great. And we also had a lady named Eve Roberts, same thing. She was pretty brutal too in that, you know, if you weren't ready to go, she wasn't gonna baby you.5 (42m 1s):So she would just basically like you're oh, so you don't know your lines. Sit the fuck down, Sit down, who's ready to work? Cuz it was an audition class and she was a film actor with a lot of experience and it was auditions for both film and and stage. But she, if you weren't ready, but if you were ready, she would work you out. Like you would get a great workout, you'd leave with a great monologue. And so I was like, always be prepared for that, you know, cuz she will, she will, she will get you if you're not,2 (42m 27s):Honestly it really sounds like SMU did a much better job than most, most of what we hear about in terms of like getting real working actors and, and it's a tough thing. I I, you know, I don't really blame any school that doesn't, It's a tough thing if it's a working actor, then they're working, they don't have time to like commit to the, the, the school teaching schedule. But at the same time, like if you don't have any of that, then you are really, you're experiencing all that on the job. Which, you know, which is fine too. But it sounds like SMU did a better job of preparing for you, preparing you for a career.5 (42m 57s):I would say somewhat. Yeah. I mean there are things that I, you know, as, as I entered life because I was of the mind when I, when I graduated, I was really torn about whether or not to go to grad school or not. And I really didn't know cuz I really, I, and I still to this day have a split focus. Like I act and direct both in the, you know, in the theater. Like I do both. So I wasn't sure which way I wanted to go and you really had to decide to go to grad school. So I was like, you know, I'm gonna take a year off is what I decided. And I waited tables, lived life, you know, whatever, didn't even really do any theater or stuff.5 (43m 39s):But I tended to like work back at smu. So like they would have me come back and like I would sub in and cover like Del Moffitt who was the man who was the auditioner who auditioned me originally and his improv class. Like I'd come in and do cover him for a month if he went on sabbatical, you know, stuff like that. Or like, and I directed a couple main stages there. That was it. So I just decided end up, I started working more in Dallas and ended up just staying in Dallas. Dallas was not what I plan where I planned to stay. Like I kept in my mind, you know, thinking like I'm gonna move to Chicago. Like that was my dream was living in Chicago and because I guess I'm a tourist and stubborn and lazy, I don't know, sometimes you just start working and you're like, nah, just stay here.5 (44m 26s):I'm working and I can kind of do what I want. And then I got an agent and I was like, oh there's this part of the, you know, like I think in 95 or whatever, you know, cause I graduated in 91, so you just start working and then it's like, why do I want to go and start over? And it was just kind of a hard thing to do. Do I have regrets sometime about not doing Absolutely. Like sometimes I look back and I'm like, oh man. But as far as just preparing, I think it's just hard to get prepared. Cuz I think, like, I wish I left with like, and they're doing this now, which is great, but like left with more of like what's, you know, good, what's a good headshot? What's what, what, you know, how do you walking into a room, how do you handle it?5 (45m 7s):You know, like there's certain things that I feel like they could train and give you a little bit more experience, life experience in it. But I think they have some new, I know they have, I know they have film acting now, a little bit of film acting stuff there, which is always good just cuz that's how a lot of people make money.2 (45m 26s):I, I am, I'm happy to say because we've had, we've had this conversation so many times with people about the way that schools didn't prepare you. Somebody's been getting the message about this. My son is in high school and he goes to this like auxiliary performing arts program. It's like half day his regular high school and half day this and he does a seminar once a week on the business of music. And you know, what, what kind of jobs you're gonna have to do to keep, you know, to pay the rent while you're waiting between gigs, like is very brass tack. So, so the message has gotten through, thankfully.5 (45m 58s):Yeah, the business is important, man. That's how you survive. I mean, let's be real. I mean like that's, and it's not easy. Like if you're, like, if you're going to, I mean there's, sure there's two or three unicorns every so often, but for the most part you're gonna have to wait tables or cobble together bunch of odd jobs or cobble you know, like all these little, like, I'm a, I'm gonna do the Asop Fs in the, in the elementary schools for three weeks or whatever, you know, like, and how do you make rent? You know, like that's, it's not glamorous for sure.2 (46m 27s):So what was the journey from graduating to founding Kitchen Dog with your classmates?5 (46m 33s):I actually am not a founder. So Kitchen Dog was founded by five SMU MFA students who were in the MFA program when I was an undergrad. So I, so I ate that old, thank God, but they founded it in 90, did their first show in 91, which I saw it was above a, it was above a pawn shop in deep with no air conditioner in May. It was very hot and fantastic, you know, Maria Ford has his mud, it was great. And so I did my first show with them in 93. So a few years after I graduated, which Tim, my classmate directed, he had come back, he was in Minnesota at the time and then I've just worked with Kitchen Dog ever since.5 (47m 15s):So I became a company member in 96, started working for the company as like an admin producer type person in 99 and then became co-artistic director when the founding ad left in 2005. So I've been here forever. I do not have children. I say that Kitchen dog is my grown mean child. You're1 (47m 36s):Grown mean, did you say mean?5 (47m 38s):Yeah, I did say mean sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it's very, you know, temperamental.1 (47m 42s):Yeah, that's fine. That's, I mean, yeah, it's probably still better than kids, I'm just saying. Anyway. I mean, I don't have any, so, but okay, so what do you, this is what I always wanna ask people who have longstanding careers in theater and especially when they are co-artistic director or artistic director, why do you do it and why do you love it?5 (48m 6s):That's a really good question. I mean, it varies from time to time. I mean, I think that I, you know, Kitchen Dog has one of its tenants has always been about asking, you know, we do, we do, I hate the word edgy, but we do edgier plays, we do plays that are very much talking about the world around us. Challenging, you know, and we're in Texas, it's, you know, sort of purple state now, kind of exciting purple parts. At least Dallas is hopefully this election goes that way. So, you know, it's, we, I feel like our place in the Dallas Zeki is important because, you know, we're not doing, there are a lot of people that do traditional plays and do them well, you know, like straight ahead, you know, musicals or you know, the odd couple or whatever.5 (48m 53s):Notice this gesture, the odd couple and doing great. But we do new, we do newer plays. We're a founding member of the National New Play Network. And so that's kind of kept it relevant and kept it exciting. The work exciting to me. I love working with new plays and new ideas and we have a company of artists, some of which went to smu and I, I think I've stayed here this long because, you know, I feel like I can, I, I do, I am able to do the kind of work I wanna do. I'm able to choose the plays I wanna be in or direct and I feel like they're important for my community. And when it becomes that, it's not that then I need to leave or step downs is my feeling.5 (49m 37s):I mean, you know. Yeah, yeah. I dunno.2 (49m 40s):Yeah. So many people say that, that they, that they, they keep their allegiances to theater companies because it's, it's often the work that they really, you know, f feel moves them is very, you know, is very inspiring. But then you also got the opportunity to do a very good part in something that was commercial, which is breaking bad. So could you tell us anything about your, how you were born into that project?5 (50m 8s):Sure, sure. The, I, you know, I got an agent, did you know, I had no experience, no resume. So you did the couple of walk on, you know, like, I'm in the back of a bank commercial, fantastic. Or whatever, $50. I love it. Did that and Lucked into Robert Altman. Came to town and did a very terrible movie called Dr. T and the Women. But it was a fantastic experience and I was one of the nurses and I was on set every day pretty much. So he's told me, he told us, he's like, I'll make you a lot of money. You're not gonna be seen a lot. You'll be here every day. And we got out by five and I was able to do plays at night. Like it was, it was Chef's kiss the best, like you just kind of learned from the master.5 (50m 52s):Like he is a, he truly was a master god rest his soul. Anyway, so I started auditioning more, did some walkers cuz everybody does did Walker back in the time Walker, Texas Ranger. It's like1 (51m 2s):The er we'd all did the ER and the early ion in Chicago. That was my so walker, same thing. I love a good walker by the way, Texas Ranger.5 (51m 13s):So ridiculous. Yeah, I think one of my lines in one of the episodes I was in was like, you won't put this on your lighty friends tabs. Like it was so country. Anyway, it terrible. But so with the breaking bad thing, I, I read the sides. It actually was the, the person who was casting locals or whatever, not locals cuz it was shooting in New Mexico, but it was a woman in Tony Cobb Brock who was casting in Dallas. And so we got the sides, I got the call to come in and audition for it. I read it and I was like, you know, and this is the story I've told a lot, but it's the truth, which is I read it and I was like, It's gonna be a blonde, big boobs woman. Like that's what I thought when I read it, I was like, it's gonna be this.5 (51m 54s):That's what it's gonna be. Cuz there were a lot of jokes about boobs and you're killing me with that booty. Like there was a lot more to that scene. My first scene there was a lot more. So I was like, whatever. I was like, it's not, I'm, you know, I'm a plus size lady, I have brown hair, I have a, you know, deep voice. Like, oh well. So I was like, why do I feel good in, So I just wore, I remember I wore this Betsy Johnson dress that, cause I was kind of into Rocky Billy Swing at the time. This Betsy Johnson little dress with apples was real sexy and this little shrug and had my hair kind of fancy. And I was like, I'm wearing this. I don't give a shit. So I, I was like, I feel good in this, Who cares? So I walked in and there were a bunch of ladies that were blonde and had professional lady outfits on and I was like, Oh shit, I should have dressed like a secretary.5 (52m 38s):Why did I dress like this? Oh damn. And I was like, Okay, well whatever. It's, you're not, you're not gonna book this so who cares? Went in, I had a great audition, made Tony laugh and you know, it was what it was. And so I went away and I didn't hear anything for a while. So I was like, oh, I didn't book that. Oh well. And I was sitting in an audition for some commercial and I never booked commercials. I just don't, cuz I look one way and then my voice comes out and they're like, Oh, you can't play the young mom because you seem like Jeanine Garofalo or something. So your bite and smile is scary, ma'am. So I was waiting in the, waiting in the waiting room and my agent calls, or I got paged or, you know, cause it was that so long ago.5 (53m 23s):And she was like, Can you be on a plane in three hours? And luckily I wasn't doing a play at the time. And I said, Yeah, I can. And she's like, Well you booked it. You, you should go and so you should go home and pack and go to Southwests. And that was the story. And so I get there and you know, whatever found out that, you know, it's Bob and Kirk and start losing my mind and all this stuff. But what's crazy is, it's a crazy story. And then on when in season four finale, breaking bad spoiler alert, if you haven't watched it, but you're,2 (53m 52s):You're late if you haven't watched it. Like5 (53m 54s):It's, that's2 (53m 55s):On you.5 (53m 56s):Please watch it cuz I need, Mama needs to keep getting residuals. Cause she's, you know, not Yeah. But that final episode where I have a great scene with Brian Cranston. There's a, there was a podcast, Insider podcast, which I wasn't aware of, but they talked to Vince about, you know, Oh, who's she and how did you cast her? You know, cause this was my first like, actual scene, you know, like, boy, I don't, I have more than two lines. And he tells the story of like, and this, I just love this story, which is like, basically he had seen a lot of people that he didn't think was right. He wanted something. They kept showing him the same type and he was like, no, I I it needs to be something different. He's a different kind of guy. I wanted somebody who'd challenge him, you know, different looking. And the casting woman who had Kira, I can't remember her last name, but she had, you know, I'd auditioned for her a few times, been put on tape.5 (54m 43s):I don't know that it necessarily booked anything. She's like, Well there is this one girl, I think she's great. She's probably not right. I physically, she's prob I don't think she's right, but do you wanna see? And so he showed her and he was like, That's exactly what I want. And then I booked it. And so it's crazy. So you just never know. I mean I think that's the, I think that's the walkaway.1 (55m 2s):Okay. This is the,5 (55m 3s):This1 (55m 4s):Is the craziest thing. This is crazy. So I booked a show in New Mexico called Perpetual Grace. Kira cast it and Kira showed me to Steve Conrad, who's the showrunner in James Whitaker who was directing the episode. I looked nothing like the other people. My agent Casey called me and said, Can you get on a plane in three hours? You5 (55m 29s):Gonna1 (55m 29s):New Mexico? Same casting director, St. Kira,2 (55m 34s):The Kira, all these people, Kira,1 (55m 38s):Kira talk5 (55m 39s):Me. Well, and it's like that thing, you know, like you, you know, I think that's always the big takeaway, right? Is, is, and you know, and I, I think I read this not to feel like I'm fucking namedropping I'm not. But like, I read this I think in Brian's book too. But like, the thing is, is like all you can do is just like, just, they're calling you in for a reason. So you just have to say like, what is it in me? What's unique about me? That's this role? And lean into it and go for it in that regard because that's all you got. Like as soon as you start and I find myself doing this, I have to keep reminding myself, you know, to do this. Which is I'll read something like, oh it's this and try to play to what I think it is. Versus like, no, what is it in me?5 (56m 19s):That's this. And that's the thing I book when I do that, when I try to do the other other thing, you know? Totally. And start getting your own head.2 (56m 28s):The time5 (56m 28s):On here, God,2 (56m 30s):By the way, regarding name dropping, I never understand why anybody gets upset about that. I, it's like, well they're people that, you know, the people that you work with, they're people in your life. I mean, you're just saying their name. It's, it's not like you're cloud chasing. But anyway, that, that's insight. Girl. Walk me back to this day where you take three hours to get on the airplane. I wanna know how fast did you have to rush home to pack? What did you do? Did you have enough stuff? What was it like when you were on the airplane? Did you order a drink because you felt so fancy? Tell us everything.5 (56m 57s):Well, all I know is I had a bag and I got, I ran home, I had a roommate at the time, thank God. And I just said, Can you feed my cat? Cause I, I had a cat at the time. I was like, Please feed Loretta. And so I got this bag and just threw, it was really like, just stuff thrown in and I was like, do I need to bring the dress and shoes that I wore that, So I brought the whole outfit cuz I was like, cuz the jobs, some of the jobs I'd been on, I had to bring my own shit or whatever, you know, you have to bring your whole wardrobe and be like, Oh you want none of this? Great, I'll put it all back in my car. So I just threw that in there and then I just threw some random, I don't even know what I packed and, you know, ran to the airport, got on the plane, I think I did have a jack and coat cuz I was just like, I'm so freaked out in the plane.5 (57m 43s):Of course you know, you're going to New Mexico, so you're going over those mountains and you're just like, okay, I'm gonna die also great, but I don't wanna die. I just booked a big job or whatever. And then I remember the landing and getting in the van thing and they took me straight to the hotel and I, I remember opening cuz they, back then they, you know, you would get like your sides in an envelope like that in the, in the later years. That shit never, you never got printed stuff ever because people would steal it and whatever else. So I remember pulling it out and seeing Bob's name and freaking, oh, cause I was a huge Mr.5 (58m 23s):Show fan and I was just like, oh my god, oh my god. And I just remember calling my fr I have a friend Aaron Ginsburg, who's kind of an LA Hollywood dude or whatever. And I was like, Oh my god, oh my god. And he was like, Thanks for this spoiler. And I was like, Oh shit, I'm not supposed to tell people. And I was like, but I'm freaking out. And he was like, No, no, it's okay. I will tell no one. I was like, don't tell anyone I don't wanna get fired. But yeah, so I just remember sitting there and freaking out and trying to look at my lines and, you know, what am I, oh God. And then going there with my clo my little bag of dresses or whatever and they're like, we don't want any of this crap.2 (58m 57s):They're like, this is a high budget show. We got, we got costumes covered5 (59m 1s):Back then. I don't, I know back then, I don't know if they were that high budget, but it was interesting to me. The one thing is, is just how involved the showrunners of that show Peter and or Vince at the time, and then later Peter and Vince. But like, they have a color palette they have where they want the characters to go. Like I had, you know, that it got really paired down. I ended up having like, you know, just a few lines. But they took so many pictures, different outfits, different setups and like different color tones, like just setting what they wanted for my character. And I was like, holy shit or whatever. And they were, everybody was so, and everybody was so nice and friendly.5 (59m 43s):It's really remember your name to hear1 (59m 45s):And I'm glad you talked about it. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm in the rainstorm. So sorry. But like, it's so weird to be, I'm in the Midwest right now and I live in la so coming back here, I'm like, what is that noise? It's fucking fucked up and it's the fucking rain. Anyway, so what is so beautiful about this story to me is that even if we feel small, right? Like whatever, these people who are creating these iconic shows have such vision. There is literally no small character. Like these are their children and they have arcs they have. So it just makes me appreciate as creators, as artists, how much time love, energy goes into characters and storylines.1 (1h 0m 31s):And then we see maybe, maybe if we're lucky one eighth of it, but just know like the shit matters. Right? Like a5 (1h 0m 39s):Thousand percent. And that's the same thing with like, the same thing with Robert Altman. I mean like we were, you know, he, you know, I got to be part of one of those ma his signature long tracking shots, right? He, he would walk in the room and be like, Okay, what's going on in here? So what are you guys doing? What are you, what's happening? And I was like, Well where this, that? And he's like, Great, keep that. And when I come across I want you to be in this moment. You know? So like, and he's like, Teen are things like where he's following on my shoulder and Tina, I need you to do this and this is what's happening. And I've tried, I want, I'm just gonna think about some lines, just throw these out. You know? It was just, I don't know. And that's the same thing with Vince and with Peter. Like, they were really like, what is she wearing? Why is she wearing this? Where are you? Like, you know, what's going on?5 (1h 1m 19s):And like they were like, the scripts were so good. It was like you had to be letter perfect. Barry's like, oh it's a lot of improv. And I'm like, no,1 (1h 1m 26s):No. But2 (1h 1m 26s):Also it sounded like theater, the attention to, to detail and the, and the sort of like the vision and the way that, and you, that just comes through in the best series. The A tours you, you know, that they've thought about and5 (1h 1m 38s):They all love2 (1h 1m 38s):Theater, right? Yeah, right.5 (1h 1m 39s):They all love theater. They all do.2 (1h 1m 41s):So a bit ago you said something about how the, like lustiness that Saul, you know, Jimmy feels for Francesca didn't, you know, necessarily a lot of that didn't necessarily make it into at least your first episode, but it got revisited and Better Call Saul. And I really appreciated that because I was like, Oh yeah, I, I would've wanted to see more of that. You know, I, I wanted to see more of that like lush stage dynamic. But you had,5

Intro: Nasty neighbors in the Great Unraveling, The Rest MovementLet Me Run This By You: RejectionInterview: We talk to Tina Huang about soap opera acting, LaGuardia High School, the Playwrights Horizon program at Tisch, breaking down barriers for Asian actors, Ammunition Theatre Company, Revenge Porn or the Story of a Body by Carla Ching, Bay Area Theatre, Pig Hunt, starting a fake management company,  Word for Word Performing Arts Company, Intersection for the Arts, Campo Santo, Amy Tan, 1:1 Productions, Karla Mosley, Jeanne Sakata. FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):I'm Jen Bosworth Ramirez this, and I'm Gina Pulice.2 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.3 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of2 (20s):It all. We survive theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?0 (34s):You2 (35s):Part of the building.1 (36s):Okay,2 (37s):Great. I don't know how it's gonna go.1 (41s):I mean, nobody knows how it's gonna go. It's unknowable until we know it.2 (45s):That is true. Good morning.1 (48s):Good. Margie,2 (50s):Your makeup looks amazing.1 (53s):Thank you. I'm not doing well, so I'm acting opposite. You know that skill?2 (59s):Oh, I know. Oh, that's like, I would say like 90% of adulthood. Anyway. What's happening? What, what is, if you wanna get into it, like what's the overall arching shittiness,1 (1m 10s):The overarching thing is just, Well, my neighbor I told you about.2 (1m 15s):Okay. And I just wanna put it out there and we'll get into the story, but I wanna put it out there that I, we are in, and we've said this before on the podcast in what I would call, and others like Gina would call probably similar, the great unraveling of our society. So it's like Rome is falling and I, I don't even say it, it sounds so cavalier the way I'm saying it, but I literally every day see evidence of the great unraveling of the American sweater. You know what I mean? Like it's coming out. Yes. Yeah. And we, it's okay. And I think one of those things is terrible neighbors, right? Like, people who are terrible are just getting more terrible.2 (1m 58s):So Gina has a neighbor that is very terrible.1 (2m 0s):Yeah. People just over the last several years do seem to feel way more comfortable just being extremely hor. Horrible. Horrible. So what, So this is the same neighbor that I've talked about before. And basically the deal with her is it's like she's obsessed with us. And, and like, what she doesn't understand is that we just work very hard to avoid her, you know, avoid interacting with her at any cause. I realized yesterday after she screamed at me that she has screamed at three fifths of my family members.1 (2m 40s):She only hasn't screamed at the nine year old and the, and the 14 year old. It's so insane. She's the one who Aaron was walking the dog and he had a flashlight and the dog was really young and he was trying to train him. So he kept like stopping and starting screens out. It's very disconcerting to be sitting in my living room and seeing a flashing light in front of my house, house. Like, he's like, I'm walking the dog. And the same one who when she was walking her dogs and he was walking our dog, she's like, It's not a great time to be walking your dog because her dogs are out of control. And she's yelled at my son a few times. Anyway, so what happened was, I walked the dog, I picked up the poop, I had the little baggy. If it's anybody else's house, I feel comfortable putting it in their trash2 (3m 23s):Can. Yeah. Here's the deal. Here's the deal. I hate to tell you people, but poop is trash. There's like nowhere else to put it. So if you, if you are like not okay with pooping in your trash in a bag tied up, then you don't need to live in a society where there are dogs or where there are trash. Cause that's what it1 (3m 44s):Is, Honestly. Honestly. And it's like, I feel like a big part of what's driving all this bad behavior is just like, so much entitlement. Like, I'm entitled to have only my trash in my trash can. And it's like, okay, you've never lived in New York City, right? Cause you don't understand anything about cooperative living. And anybody, whether they live in my neighborhood or not, is welcome to put their poop2 (4m 6s):Back. Yeah, dude.1 (4m 7s):So I'm walking by and I'm talking on the phone stuff, somewhat distracted, and I see this trash can, and I go, I like reach out ever So tentatively, not tentatively, but like, I had barely started to reach out, realized it was their house didn't. And within milliseconds, she is out of her house screaming at me. And I hadn't even, you know, put the poop in there. And I, I'm talking about misbehavior. I mean, I've, I don't think I've ever done this except for like having road rage in the car where the other person really can't hear me. Like I just screamed every obscenity Yes.1 (4m 48s):In the book. I, I hope nobody else, I'm sure somebody else heard, but nobody, nobody's contacted me. And, you know, I'll say this, I'm much better about taking a beat. Like, I really wanted to blast her. I really wanted to like write a horrible message to her. I really want, and I, and I don't, I'm not refined enough, well enough evolved enough to like get right to like, what's, what's the need of the matter? But I have figured out that I should probably just not say anything until, until I've thought about it. I had a good long think she messaged me on social2 (5m 22s):Media. What1 (5m 23s):She said, I'm sorry, I accused you of throwing trash in our trash can. And I just blocked her. I'm just like, you know, I, I, I wanted, what I wanted to say is like, you have no idea how much time we spend trying to avoid you. You are unwell. You have yelled at three fifths of my family, like, never speak to me or my children ever again. Forget I exist. Forget I live right across the street from you because that's what I'm trying to do about you. So2 (5m 50s):Instead you just blocked her. Well listen that, that, because when you told me this story yesterday that she, the the reach out on social media hadn't happened. So now I'm like, I think what, before you said that part, I was gonna say like, I think our only recourse is what people do, which is start videotaping the insanity. And I'm not sure that's a really a good solution. Like, I think that like, oh sure, people put it on social media and then there's a laugh, but then we're really laughing at sort of the horribleness and the, and the mental illness of others. And it's their person and who knows how that's gonna negatively affect them or their job or their family. So I don't, like, I understand the, the urge to videotape everything, but I'm not sure that's really the answer with, with non-criminal behavior.2 (6m 40s):If it's a crime, then it's something else. But if it's just to embarrass or ashamed someone I, I'm, I have second thoughts about the videotaping now, but good for you for just blocking it. It, you know, what it is, is if to say, we are done with this, we are done with this.1 (6m 57s):Yeah. Yeah. And you lie down with dogs and you get fleas. Yes. And I don't really wanna bring that energy into my life. And sometimes, you know, if you get, if you're like a person who consumes as much media as I do, you get this false sense of like, what I would do in that, you know, in a certain situation when it's theoretical, I feel very, like, not even brave, but just like aggressive and entitled. And I can get to a point where I feel like I could hear myself saying like, Oh, I would kill that person. Or I would, which of course I would never do. In fact, I don't even wanna like, say anything unkind about them in a very public way. So knowing me and knowing my values, and you could just never go wrong if you stick with your own values. Like, it's not my value to, it's not my value to tell people, You know what, here's a thing you need to know about yourself.1 (7m 43s):And it's not my val even though I do that with people, people that I know, but not strangers. And it's my value to like, keep as much peace in my life as possible. And it's not my value to engage with toxic people with whom I could only ever have a toxic Yeah. You know,2 (8m 0s):Interaction. Right. It's not gonna get better. It's like a legit never gonna get better because it's just, that's not how, that's not how it works if you engage in that. So anyway, that okay. But that, that has nothing to do with the overarching shitty No,1 (8m 14s):The overarching thing is just like, wow, parenting is so hard. People, people are really, people learn at different rates. People learn lessons at different rates. People mature at different rates. Like, and having patience for somebody who's really behind in so many ways is exhausting and overwhelming to me. So there's that piece. There's like, you know, a relative with having a health crisis, there's,2 (8m 45s):Oh,1 (8m 46s):There's just stuff going on. Yeah. And, but this is what I'm doing differently this time. Okay. I am trying to stay with myself, which is to say, yes, things are terrible, things are going wrong, but I am not gonna abandon myself in the process. Yeah. Of like, feeling my way through it. And in fact, that's another new thing, is I'm feeling my way through it and I'm really trying to apply this thing about taking a beat and like how crazy, you know, Aaron is also having, we're simultaneously having this growth moment. And, and you know, he recently made a big stride with somebody in his family who's having a health crisis, and he, he said, You know something I like, I'm not gonna go to crazy town.1 (9m 32s):Like I, he, I saw the light bulb for him. Like, I have a choice about whether or not I wanna go to crazy town on this. And actually I don't, because actually it's bad for my, because you know, I was thinking about this when I was at Costco today and I was doing some something small and I was wanting to like, do it really fast. And I thought, why do I wanna do everything so fast? Like, my shoulders are tense all the time. Like, I don't wanna do anything so fast anymore. There's no reason I'm not in any rush. Like I, there's, it's, it's just a habit from youth. I feel like just doing everything in a big rush, rush, rush. Yeah. And I think it's time to let that go.2 (10m 9s):Oh, I mean it's, so I feel like it's such an intense and like right on timing because there's this whole movement about rest. Have you heard about this? Like rest is radical, Rest is as a revolution. So there's a black woman and I believe I, I I I, I am ignorant to what her like specialty is area. And I just started hearing about it. And Miles my husband was listening to her an interview with her about how rest, not napping, not, but like r really snatching and holding dear to the idea of rest as, as radicalism, rest as a revolution opposite of hustle.2 (10m 50s):Culture is like gonna be the way that we, this is my interpretation of what she's saying. Like, the way that we sort of fight injustice and in fight racism, all the isms is by really embracing rest culture as opposed to hustle culture. So1 (11m 8s):I love that. And by the way, black women are spawn every good thing there is in the world. Like, you find a trend that's happening in society that you like and think is really positive. You can definitely trace it back to a black woman who, who, who, who started, who started it. So that's great. I'm pro rest, I'm, and I'm also trying to do less of like I'm a human being, not a human doing. And like, if I don't cross everything off of my to-do list, that doesn't, you know, it's not, it's not like I'm, it's not a wasted day if I didn't get all my little tasks done, you know, especially I was emotionally dealing with something else.2 (11m 45s):Yes, yes. That's the other thing. It's that the, the emotional, you know, I think like if it's become such sort of a, I don't know, buzzword or whatever phrase, emotional labor, but I do think that the time that I spend thinking, feeling and, and, and doing internal work, I've never counted as anything. And I think the way, and, and watching, especially having watched in white male dominated Hollywood for so long, Let me tell you something, Those motherfuckers rest okay. They rest when they, when, So don't you think for one second that the people who are on top or seemingly running shit or whatever or are running shit are not resting because they are, they can, they may set the trend for hustle culture, but they're really talking ultimately about the rest of us hustling because they have yachts and vacation homes.2 (12m 43s):They rest. I don't care what you say. You know what I mean? Yeah.1 (12m 46s):It's, it's such a, it's such a, I don't even know how to describe it. It's such, it's like a comical notion that these masters of the universe are really hustling all the time because all of their work is built on the backs of people who are oppressed in one way or another. So really everybody under them is hustling. Correct. Much, much more than they are,2 (13m 8s):Right? Yes.1 (13m 9s):And we've been able to outsource all their, you know, a domestic, everybody we've been able to out Yeah. Everything. Yeah.2 (13m 16s):And like, I think, I think the other, the other sort of weird shit is that like, you know, the older I get, and we've talked about this a lot on the podcast, is the more I realize like it's all a pyramid scheme, right? Like, so any capitalism thing that you are into, whether it's Hollywood, whether it's Wall Street, whether it's, I don't care, like anything, whether you work in tech, anything is all basically a pyramid scheme because that is what capitalism is. And so I feel like there are just more and more subtle ways in which I am seeing that the, you know, the rules are never fair and the what's behind the curtain is always the same, which is a select few who tend to be, you know, white males are really running the show.2 (14m 10s):And we shall see what if it, if it changes with, without a civil war. Like, I, I don't know.1 (14m 17s):Yeah. Yeah. And you know, I I I always think of like great ideas for memes, but then I never make them. But we should do one of like, you know, a picture of that, of the Wizard of Oz and, and when we see the curtain and you know, what the internet is what has opened the curtain really, you know, kind of exposed and reality TV to some degree has exposed and documentaries have exposed like the truth of what's going on. The great unraveling is also like the great discovery of what the actual truth is.2 (14m 48s):Sure. Yes. I mean, when you, when you unravel the sweater, it's like what is under there is is like this old decrepit white dude who's flabby and, and not in shape telling the rest of us that we're fat lards and need to get it together. And that is what's happening. So I'm not, and the other thing I'm not doing, it's really interesting. It's like I've made a conscious decision to literally stop following up with people who are not following up with me.1 (15m 22s):Yes. Yeah.2 (15m 23s):I'm not following up, I'm not circling back. I'm not, I'm not hitting you up again. I'm not waiting three months and then putting it on my calendar to circle back. I'm done, I'm done with all that. I don't, I don't have anymore resources to circle back. Like, I'm not willing. Yeah. So if we have a thing and we're supposed to meet and you can't do it, or you, you keep putting it off, it's over. Unless you wanna come out of the blue and say, Hey, I realize that like we never met. Are you interested in meeting on this day at this time? And then I am okay. Because it is just my following up is taking up too much time. I'm not, I'm not1 (15m 58s):Interested taking too much time. It's, that's emotional labor too. And also, like I've gotten to the point in life where I, if, if I reach out and somebody says, Yeah, and then we go, you know, we try to firm it up and they, they ghost me, which by the way, I have done bajillions of times me to, I just understand it as the way that you're communicating to me non-verbally that you actually don't wanna be part of this thing. Correct. Which is totally fine because a lot of us over commit and can't, you know, carry out our commitments. It's fine. But I'm less inclined even after like one interaction that because the person is telling me who they are, if not who they are, how they actually feel. You know, because you make, you make, you make time for whatever you want to make2 (16m 38s):Time for. That is absolutely true. And I also feel like I am so like, okay, so we bought this house, we bought, I don't know if you know this, but we bought the second house. We didn't buy the first house. The first house was got invested with no, Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you this because I was waiting for the podcast. But, and then, anyway, that first house, I have to send you the pictures of our real house. The first house was owned by Open Door, which is a horrible private equity company that just bought up all the houses in southern California. And anyway, they communication is horrible. They treated my realtor and us like crap. And, and so we just walked away from the deal, got our earnest money back because they would not fucking fix their fucking $8,000 termite problem.2 (17m 23s):So we were like, bye, I'm done. So then we found this other house built in 1980 that I fucking adore. And so it is so dope and I am restoring it to its 1980s glory. So it's gonna be an eighties. Like every room, every room is gonna have sort of an anchor of 1980. It's a very specific year because it's like the, the seventies are still, which is why I was like, can you make my neon sign1 (17m 48s):Pink? Yes, By the way, which I did look into and I would love to do for you, but to get what we wanna put on it is like a minimum thousand dollars.2 (17m 57s):Yeah, let's not do that. Don't do that. We'll do it. Yeah. We1 (18m 1s):Could slash I was trying to do like fa slash o you know, as a, as an acronym.2 (18m 9s):Let's just do people do it all the time. People put f fa Yeah, yeah, just do that. Don't worry about it. Okay. But so, okay, so what I'm saying is like, I'm obsessed now with picking out pieces for this new home that we, we, we close on the 7th of November and we move at the end of November. And so all this to say is like, I've realized I would much rather look at giant pink velvet sectionals that are retro refurbished from the 19, from 1980 than fucking follow up and circle back with your motherfucking whatever you're gonna help me with. Yeah. I would much rather look at, oh my God, they made what in the eighties.2 (18m 51s):That is, I I would much rather like focus it on my life and like how to bring creativity and art to this our first home that we're gonna own. You know, And then fucking track you, your ass down. Who doesn't wanna hang out with me in the first place? Bye bye.1 (19m 13s):Hey,2 (19m 14s):Let run this by1 (19m 15s):You today is about rejection.2 (19m 25s):I love it.1 (19m 26s):I'm sure we've talked about it here. Oh, I'm sure we run it by each other before here. But, you know, it's one of those perennial topics. So I, I liked truly by happenstance learned about an opportunity to direct something. Not with a theater company that I used to work with, but a different or organization. And it just so happened they were doing this play and, and the person who was producing it was like, Oh, we're looking for a director who's this and this? And I go, Oh my God, that's me. Yeah. So she says, Great, you know, and submit. And I submitted and, and I had, I submitted and four months before I got a call from anybody saying, Can you come in for an interview?1 (20m 10s):And then when they did, not a call, an email from somebody who emailed me at 2:00 PM asking me if I could come at 7:00 PM2 (20m 18s):Yeah.1 (20m 19s):Now I wanted to do this. So I, I did, I hustled, I got it together. I wrote up like my, I wrote like a thesis basically on who I am as a director. And then I went to the interview with, with eight, eight or nine people there.2 (20m 35s):Oh my god.1 (20m 37s):Yeah. And you know, there was one qualification for this job that I was missing, but it wasn't something, It wasn't, to me it wasn't a deal breaker. And I was, I was very upfront, I said it right in the beginning anyway, this theater is not necessarily that high profile, which is an understatement.2 (21m 0s):I just can't believe that's too many people in a fucking interview. No, I literally wrote eight person It's too scary in person.1 (21m 8s):Yes, in person. And honestly, like even that wasn't bad because I, you know how you can just get in there and be in the zone and turn it on. And I was charming and I was, you know, an answering questions like honestly, but in a way that I felt demonstrated my competence, et cetera. Now I didn't exactly have it in my mind, like they'd be lucky to have me, but when I got rejected, I thought they would've been lucky to have me. Like, that was a mistake. What2 (21m 32s):The fuck? Did they reject you? What the fuck? Who'd they pick? What the fuck?1 (21m 36s):They, I don't know. And I've, you know, I'm trying to be politic here cuz there's people that I like who are part of this group, but it just, it just didn't work out that way. They, they, so, I don't know, I don't know who they picked, but they, but at the end of her email she said, We'd like you to re resubmit for like, this next opportunity. And so I'm working on, you know, like, it's not that if I had to do it over again, I would've done it differently. But when I really got clear with myself about things, I, you know, I was not that excited about this opportunity because it wasn't going to do anything for my career.1 (22m 21s):It really was just gonna be like an opportunity to direct and flex my muscles, which I would've loved to do. And so I, I, you know, as an actor you have to deal with rejection all the time. I just would love to know, like, actors do seem to have amazing strategies, seasoned ones, and the thing I hear the most often people say is like, after the audition, just forget it. Don't ever think about it again. But I would love to hear what your strategy2 (22m 45s):Look are. I think that for people that are, that are working and auditioning or interviewing all the time that you, that that is a really good strategy. The Brian Cranston method, which is you, you just do it and forget it. However, for those of us who don't do that every day, all day long, where it's like the one thing is more important because it's the one thing that we go out for. Like, I, like for me, I don't audition all the time. So like, when I get an opportunity from my agent, I take it really seriously and I wanna book it. And I'm, I really put in a lot of work in time. Okay, fine.2 (23m 24s):So I, it's so easy to say one and done, like forget it. But I think that that's great if that's where people are, like Brian Cranston, Okay, does he even have to audition for things anymore? I don't know. But for me, the thing that really works is what something you just said, which is to really go through and say, did I, what, what did I want about this thing? Because did I just wanna be picked? Because of course that's really valid. Like who the fuck doesn't wanna be special and picked if you say you don't, you're a sociopath like that, I don't care. You know? So I wanna be loved and picked, so that hurts on that level.2 (24m 6s):And then if I go deeper, I'm like, okay, but what is the thing that I liked about this particular interaction? Possible collaboration. Okay, well I really wanted to get more practice on what for me would be like practice on set, working out how not to be nervous on set. Okay. So I I'm gonna miss that opportunity, but like if I look at the text, did I really connect to it? Not really. So it's not that. So I think it's just like literally like what you said before, which is giving yourself and myself the time to feel my way through and think, okay, like what is upsetting about this? What is upsetting for me? It would be, if I was in your shoes, it would be like, I spent a lot of time and energy interfacing with these people.2 (24m 50s):Even if it was like, so if you, from when you submitted, even though that you weren't like thinking about it all the time, it was still hanging in the air for four months. Right? It's a four month long. Even if it's in the back of your, of, in the ethos, it's still there. Okay. So it's still like on the table. And then you finally have an interview with all these people, lovely people, whether or not it doesn't matter, you're still give, putting out so much fucking energy. And so what it feels to me, like, I would feel like, oh, like I did my best. I put myself out there, I made a case for myself and my work in front of a lot of people and I didn't get the thing.2 (25m 31s):And that just feels shitty.1 (25m 33s):It does. It just, and there's no way around it. Like sometimes things just feel shitty. And I did definitely wanna be picked the, the idea that somebody would, you know, the, like I'm a sucker for an opportunity to be picked for something. I don't, I don't necessarily like avoid things. I don't avoid things that could, you know, possibly lead in rejection. I, I, I approach those things or I try to, but it was the thing I said earlier, like, I just wanted, I just thought, oh, it'd be so fun to, to work on this, but upon reflection there are 1 million things I could be working on and would love to work on. And that would've prevented me from do, you know, for a period of time that would've prevented me from working on those things.1 (26m 16s):So it's a blessing and I what's for you will not go by you. I totally believe in that. And it was my, in fact it was my mantra that, you know, yesterday when I found out. So,2 (26m 26s):And, and, and, and to be fair, like you just found out. So like, if it was like three months from now, like I've had friends who, and I, I mean I may have had this too, where like it lasts more than 24 hours. This feeling of why did I get rejected? Why, why, why? What could I have done? Why didn't they like me? Look, it's been less than 20, you know, you're fine. Yeah. Like, you're not, Yeah. So I, I but rejection is something that is like the, the true, the true greats that I love seem to, their take on rejection is like, it gets easier the more you get rejected.1 (27m 13s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Tina Wong, You are in for such a treat. Tina is amazing. Not only does she star and has starred on almost all of the soap operas, you've seen her in television film, She's an actor, a writer, a director, a producer. She does film television. She's a voiceover artist too. She does theater. She truly, truly, truly does it all. We really loved talking to her and we hope you enjoy our conversation with Tina Juan,0 (27m 47s):I'm2 (27m 47s):Not totally losing, losing it. Anyway, you survived and you went, you did a lot of things. I, I mean, first we're gonna get to it all, but can I just say, and I can because this is, this is, this is the platform to say it. I love that you were on two soap operas and more people, maybe more than two. Were you on more than two or just4 (28m 7s):Yeah, yeah,2 (28m 8s):Because Yeah, go ahead.4 (28m 11s):No, most recently just two, but yes.2 (28m 13s):Okay. So here's the thing about that is that I don't care. We went to theater school and I know a lot of people think that that is, or some people talk shit about soap operas in terms of acting. Yeah. I have never seen or heard actors work as hard as my friends that have been on soap operas. And in terms of the pace and the pacing and the, the amount of work that is required of, of, of actors at soap operas a stunning. So I just love it because I think that it is like, from what my, what I know about it, it's like a gymnastics routine that people are doing on those sets. So we'll go, I just wanna say that I like give full props to that because it's not a joke soap opera work.2 (28m 55s):It is not a joke. Thank4 (28m 56s):You. Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Shut2 (28m 58s):Out. Yeah, thank you.1 (29m 0s):So I'll just ask then, pursuant to that, because I think you are the first person we're interviewing who was on a soap opera, and I would love to know everything about the process of your audition and how you, Cause I've heard, I, I used to, I used to, when I was in high school, my show was days and I read soap, Opera Digest and everything. But I would love to know, like I've heard some people describe it as more of a, it can sometimes have a feeling of more of a regular job since it's like daytime hours, et cetera. But I would love to hear what your experience of just the work of being on a soap opera.4 (29m 34s):Well, first of all, I love everyone that I work with. I'm, I'm on days, so, but you're2 (29m 40s):Still on it. Oh my, my gosh.4 (29m 41s):I'm still on it. I'm still on it. So in fact, I'm like shooting six episodes next week. So I'm, I'm on a little break in Canada, just like here having a little vacation before we go.2 (29m 54s):Good for you. Oh my gosh. Six in a week. It's like Saturday Night Live. What's happening? Okay. How did you get on these? What was your first one that you were on, first of all? Was4 (30m 2s):It the first one? The first one I was on was I think days. And then when I first came to LA and then I did General Hospital and then I did Young and the Restless, and then I did, then I was on Bold and the Beautiful and Days at the same time during the Pandemic. And then now I'm on days Doing days.2 (30m 24s):Oh my Tina, Tina Bow Tina. This is, this is, this is incredible because what this tells me is that you are extremely obviously talented, but we know that because I've seen you on Rezo and aisles, all the things, but it's also, you are, it must be really wonderful to work with because people keep bringing you back and back and back. So you must be like a real sort of team player, which I bet is part of your theater tra like you are an ensemble. Yes. Right?4 (30m 53s):Yes. I think the best part about doing any of this is the collaboration part. You know, when people don't want, it's funny when people don't like notes and don't like getting notes. I'm always like, I love notes. Like I can't just do this on my own and act in a bag. Like I need, I need you to like tell me what's going on. What do you see that I don't see, you know, all of that is, that's the best part. The collaboration. Yeah.1 (31m 14s):So I'm still eager to know a little bit more about like how you, how it started with your audition and how you experience the day to day work of being a soap opera for actor Sure. As opposed to any other type of actor.4 (31m 26s):Sure. Well, I, I got the audition to, to go in for days and I read for Marni Satya, who, I hope I'm saying her name right, who's the casting director. And it went well. And she said, you know, we have a call back. And I said, great. I can't remember if that was the next day or if that was the same day. It may have been the same day. And she told me to just wait, I can't remember. Cuz the producers were upstairs and they wanted to do producer sessions right away and, or it may have been the next day and she, they sent sides, you know, again, but I just assumed they were the same audition and it was like 14 pages. It was like a lot of pages. But just so you know, soap scripts are, you know, one and a half spacing.4 (32m 9s):Oh yeah. So it's not single spacing, but2 (32m 11s):Still, still it's a dialogue. Listen, I, I'm like an under 10. I like always do an under 10 because that's my jam. I have trouble with that. I don't, Oh my, you must be, you're okay. So you get all these pages and you assumed it was the same, but I'm guessing it wasn't the same.4 (32m 27s):So I show up and she wanted just read all of us ladies that came back in to, to for the producer session and just like talk to us and all that kind of stuff. And she said, So you got the new scenes? And I said, New scenes, No. And then she said, Oh well we gotta go, we gotta go up to the producers right now. So we all walked up and she goes, Don't worry, I'll put you last, you know, don't hear the new scripts.2 (32m 51s):Oh my god. The new scripts. I'm peeing my pants right here. Okay, go ahead. And I4 (32m 56s):Don't remember how different it was, but I, I think it was quite different.2 (32m 60s):Like,4 (33m 1s):And she said, just take, you know, whatever time we'll put you last. And there was like maybe four, four women that, excuse me, my nose is running, but four women ahead of me and I just studied. Oh2 (33m 12s):My God. You were like, okay, nyu. Okay, tons of Shakespeare, memorization don't fail me now. Right. So, okay, so you go, were you nervous? Which it's4 (33m 23s):Harder when you get older.2 (33m 25s):No shit. Okay. Right. So you go in the room and there's producers there, obviously it's a producer's session. And is the casting lady still in the room with you?4 (33m 34s):She, she's still in the room and it was only one producer, the executive producer, so it's just him. But it was a big conference room. Anyway, when I was waiting to go in, one of the actresses, like, I guess they overheard what had happened and this, this another actor said, You didn't get the sides? And I said, No, you didn't get the new scenes. I said, No. And she said, That's sucks. That's terrible. I'm like, Yeah, I'm just gonna study. Yeah, I'm2 (34m 3s):Just studying like, be quiet. Like leave me alone. Right,4 (34m 7s):Right.2 (34m 7s):Not helpful. Not helpful. Not helpful.4 (34m 10s):I'm, I'm not that person. I don't compete with anybody in the audition room. I compete with myself and I think maybe that's part of my success. I just, I'm hard enough on myself. I don't need to add like everyone else has a distraction. But it was really interesting. So, so then he, they called me in and it went really well. I mean, it was just this huge conference room with a giant table in between us. So it was like, not like a theater setup or an audition room, A normal audition room. And it went really well. I mean, I think I sobbed, I think I was shaking, I think like all of those things. And maybe it was from the, that cold read sort of nerves that just let me just go with my, just go with my intuition, you know?4 (34m 53s):Yeah,1 (34m 54s):Right. No time to think and obsess and, and worry about it. Right. Do you get to, like, considering how much dialogue you have to memorize every single day for the next day's work, is there any room for improvisation or do you, are you supposed to say it word for word?4 (35m 9s):Supposed to say it word for word? I think there's a little bit of leeway. You know, the longer you've been on the show, they, they don't, you can't improv for sure. It's all written, but, you know, if you get a the instead of and or you know, those little things, the pace is so quick that they're not gonna redo the, and we usually get one to two takes. Right. We don't get multiple takes.2 (35m 30s):Oh my, my God.4 (35m 32s):It moves at an incredible speed. So when you said what you said about soap acting and soap actors, I really have a tremendous respect. I think a lot of people like to put judgment on high art and low art. And I, I don't really get the point of that, but, but they, people love it. People watch it, it gives them a sense of comfort. And the actors that I've met are so hardworking and so talented, like very good actors. They're just in the job that they're in. You know what I mean? And a lot of it's a lot of this soap acting is soap work has gotten better. So1 (36m 5s):Absolutely. I would go so far as to say that's probably a sexist thing that soap, soap operas have whatever reputation that they do because you know, anything that a lot of women like people tend to denigrate. Right. Okay. So did you always want to be an actor? Did you always want to go to theater school? What was your journey when you were picking colleges?4 (36m 33s):Wow. You know, I, being a Asian American woman, I didn't really see that it would be a possible career path for me. I was like a secret artist, you know, like inside I really wanted to be on the stage and I really wanted to act and all of that. But I didn't have examples really. I think growing up I had like for a short stint Margaret Show and, and Lucy Lou and you know, very few and then like Chinese actresses that I knew of. But it was a tough journey. So I secretly auditioned for LaGuardia music and art and performing arts in New York City. You know, the fame high school? Oh2 (37m 12s):Yeah. Oh yeah. I know that you went there and I'm wondering, like you seek, what does it mean to secretly audition where you didn't tell your folks and you were like, I'm out.4 (37m 20s):Didn't tell my folks. Yeah, I mean, how old are you when you start high school? I mean, I was probably, Oh yeah, what are we, 12? No, 13. 13.1 (37m 28s):13. I, No, 13. Really young, really4 (37m 30s):Young.1 (37m 31s):13. Do that on your own.4 (37m 32s):So I, you know, I grew up in New York City, so I took the subway up. I I applied to audition and, well first I was in the, the fine arts program, so, which they also didn't like. And I had an amazing art teacher in junior high school who mentored me to make, make a portfolio and all this kind of stuff. So I'd gone up and did the art test without telling my parents. And I, and I got into the art program. Wait a minute2 (37m 55s):Differently. You didn't get into the, you went for fine art. For, for and you, what do you mean the art test? What the hell is that? That sounds horrifying. What do you mean an art test?4 (38m 7s):So, well I didn't, I didn't audition yet for theater cause I think it was too scary at that moment for me. So first I did the art program because I was encouraged by a grown up teacher who was like, thought she saw talent in me, which was very amazing to have a teacher like that. And the art test was, you had to have a full portfolio, like at least 10 or 15 pieces in a portfolio. So you carry that big old thing. Like imagine a 12 year old kid carrying a portfolio uptown. I mean it's just, it's, it's crazy when I think about it. And then you get there and there's like a still life setup and there's all the, everybody sits around on desks and you have to draw, you have to draw the still life,2 (38m 48s):My god, all the pressure. And4 (38m 49s):Then they bring in, and then they bring in a model and then you have to draw the model2 (38m 55s):A. This is like my nightmare of like any kind of that where you're like, it's a test. Anxiety, high pressure, pressure, creativity, high pressure on the spot, creativity. I would've been passed out. I would've passed out.4 (39m 10s):I don't think so. I mean, look, we we're all, it's a good prep for like auditioning and callbacks and just we're al you're always under pressure. We're under pressure right now doing the podcast. But, but yeah, I mean I think growing up in New York you're constantly under pressure. So I, I maybe I was used to it for that reason. But2 (39m 30s):I do have to say Tina, Tina, there is something about you. Yes, ma'am. That is like super badass, tough, even just the way you present and your voice in the best possible way. So like, and I wonder if that is a mix of, you know, New Yorker, Asian American parents. My, my guess is I'm the par a daughter of an immigrant. Your daughter of an immigrants. Right. Of immigrants. Yeah. Okay. So there's like a toughness about you and like all I could, like you're a badassery. Do you think it is New York? What is it? Where does that come from? Because you should play, you, you should play an assassin and a like a, like an action hero in, in like huge films.2 (40m 13s):Why isn't that? We gotta make that happen today anyway,4 (40m 16s):So let's just call Kevin Fig and just let him know like, I'm available. Well, I, I think you touched on it. I think it's all those things that make up who I am. I, I, I am tough. I am tough but I like, I I, but I don't see myself necessarily that way. I'm like, you know, I think we've, I think I spent actually a lot of years trying to counteract that tough expectation by being like smiley and sweet and doing the things that I think women tend to do. Women identifying women tend to do, like by softening themselves and being smaller in the room. And I think over the years as you get older you hit 40 and you're like, fuck that.4 (40m 56s):Oh, am I allowed to curse on this? Okay. You just kinda like, absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm fucking over this. But I think it's all those things. I think definitely New York and always having your defenses up and always having an awareness around you and having parents that worked extremely hard and sacrificed a lot and knowing that I could sacrifice more. I think that's also part of like surviving as an artist. Like do I need to eat that fancy thing today? Do I need to have that new outfit? Like no, I, if I want to succeed then those are the things I need to let go of in order to invest in my career.4 (41m 36s):So yeah, I think a lot of it is identifying as an Asian American female, I think having immigrant parents for sure that work really hard. I think New York City and all of its dangerous that I survived. So I survived theater school and New York City and now I'm trying to survive LA1 (41m 56s):Yeah, yeah. Right, right. Lot of surviving happening. So at what point did you, well obviously you told your parents that you applied and that you got in for the fine arts program. Yeah. They obviously had to get on board with that at some point, cuz you're still doing it. But then tell us about the switch into acting.4 (42m 17s):So it was my first year as a, as the, you know, a drawing, painting, sculptor. And I just found it really lonesome. Like I, I I was like a little emo kid, you know what I mean? Like all this angst I had just had so much angst cause I grew, I had a rough childhood and I, I just found, found myself in a little bit of a depression as a freshman in high school, which is I guess not that rare, but I just kept looking at the theater department and seeing these kids getting to like fully express themselves and be around others like them. You know, painting is a solitary thing I think like writing, I don't know if you have that experience, the two of you. Cause I read that you're both writers and I write as well and it's a very different world you're in.4 (43m 3s):So I decided to just do it apply to the theater department and that process first it's like two monologues, right? Contemporary and a classic.2 (43m 14s):Do you remember what you did? Do you remember what you did? Oh, it's okay.4 (43m 18s):Oh boy.2 (43m 19s):I bet was great. Whatever it was.4 (43m 22s):The modern piece, I don't remember the name of it or, or where it was from, but it was, it was a girl witnessing her parents', her parents' divorce and, but going through her house and talking about how the home represented the family, you know, and, and like where things belonged in the house and how those things are gonna be moved and that means their family no longer existed, exists. So it was a really beautiful piece. I can't remember where it was from. And then the other one was Shakespeare and I'm sure I did a terrible job. It may have been1 (44m 2s):Saying4 (44m 2s):I don't remember the Shakespeare. Yeah, I don't remember the Shakespeare. That's funny.2 (44m 6s):Yeah. But I bet you know, you go, you know, you know4 (44m 10s):It was Porsche, the quality and mercy is not strange.2 (44m 14s):Oh yeah, that's1 (44m 15s):Exactly what I did. Terrible.2 (44m 20s):Wait a minute. So we have, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I'm just picturing both you two for Gina. I'm wondering, I'm thinking it was to get into DePaul's theater school, right? Okay. And Tina, yours was even younger cuz you were, you were like 15, 14 playing Porsche. Yes. Oh that's fantastic. 14 year old Porsche's all around. Okay, so you must have, okay, so then what did you did, did it go on from there? Like you did your monologues? Oh,4 (44m 46s):So yeah, so then you do that and then there's a call back. So you go to another room with a different auditor and I'm trying to make sure I don't blend my high school audition to my college audition. But then we went from that callback to a screen test. So you to do a screen test and then wait,2 (45m 4s):Wait, A screen test for LaGuardia? Yeah. Like4 (45m 8s):At, at the time. At the time, Yeah. I remember that because I remember they said you have to go to good screen, so there's like a camera and you whatever on camera audition. And then from there, oh I, I remember there was five steps. I can't remember what the, I remember we may have had to go into the theater and do like a, like the theater exercises and movement stuff and then we had to do a interview one-on-one interview with the head of the department. So it was, you know, a lot of steps to,1 (45m 39s):This is so far tougher than it was for our, the audition. Like we had to do those other things you're describing. But we did not, I don't think we did a one-on-one interview.2 (45m 48s):No. Was1 (45m 49s):It nerve wracking?4 (45m 51s):Yeah, I mean as a kid I, I guess I didn't really like, I didn't, maybe didn't sink in that I was, that that's what was happening. But I just, you know, followed the line. I, whatever they told me where I needed to go, I just went and did it. So. Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a lot more steps than my college audition as well as well.2 (46m 9s):So, So you got in, did they just tell you I'm the spot Tina or were you, how did it work? And then were you, did you tell, did your parents know you were switching?4 (46m 20s):No, they didn't know. No, they didn't know. No, I think I, I think I just got a letter. I don't, I don't know if, I don't think they, I think they gave me the sense that it was a good fit, but I don't think I knew until later. Cause it's like thousands of kids in New York City, you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah. Auditioning. So,2 (46m 39s):So1 (46m 40s):I'm curious about whether the, like what, what the pipeline situation was from LaGuardia to conservatories. Cuz a lot of kids who get training young or get working young don't go for theater school because they figure like, well I already know what I'm doing. So like what, what, how was it at LaGuardia? Did mostly kids go and pursue performing arts in college or what?4 (47m 5s):You know, I think a handful of us did. But honestly I, I think a lot of people didn't continue on. So it was kind of a weeding out process. You know, a lot of people went into who poli political science. A lot of people went into, you know, a lot of different things. I mean a lot of people I, I remember I went to high school with are doing amazing things currently. I mean, one of, one of the girls I was friends with, she's like a pundit on cnn, like, like one of the leading, she went into politics and then became like a on camera. So those two worlds sort of merged. But yeah, no, I, I think I ended up applying to four schools.4 (47m 45s):Four conservatories. So SUNY purchase Rutgers, I don't remember nyu. And what was,2 (47m 55s):I'm gonna just throw out Carnegie Mellon.4 (47m 57s):Carnegie Mellon. I think it was Carnegie. I, no, no, it was Boston University. I actually, it was interesting. I didn't, I didn't, I was so, I don't know. I just, I didn't do Julliard and I didn't do Carnegie Mellon. I don't know why. Oh, I know why Pittsburgh. I didn't wanna go to Pittsburgh. Sorry if, if either of you have a fondness for Pittsburgh, but I didn't wanna be there.2 (48m 23s):Never been. And also, I have a friend that went to the Carnegie Mellon program in NI started in 1993 and they weighed them at the, in their acting classes, they weighed them. So I'm glad we didn't go. I mean, you know, whatever. We missing, not missing out. Forget, forget Pittsburgh. Also the weighing, Fuck you. So, okay, so you, you auditioned, Did you do like the urda, like all of them at once, Tina? Or did you go, how did it work for your colleges? And then tell us how, how you made your choice.4 (48m 57s):So yeah, I think I did do them. You know, they, they set up the appointments to the different places. I remember that I really wanted to go to SUNY purchase. I do remember that because Israel Hicks was the head of the department then. And I remember thinking, oh he's an amazing teacher to study under. And it was such a small conservatory program. So I went up there that, that, by that point I did tell my parents I was gonna theater school and they were not happy about it. I mean, imagine they're immigrants, right? They came across the world not speaking the language, giving up everything, working very, very hard to make a better life for their children. And then their one child that didn't go to CO that is going to college wants to be an artist.4 (49m 38s):I mean that's like pretty brutal for them to absorb. But yeah, I, You were saying when you leave high school, like why, why go into the theater school? I, because I, both my brothers had not gone to college. My older brothers and my parents were, you know, had immigrated here. And like, I just, I felt like college was really important. I felt like getting an education was really important. And maybe, I remember thinking at the time, imagine being 17 and thinking I'm ruining my career. Cuz I thought it was gonna slow down my career because I did have one. We have an industry night at the end of high school and I got a manager, a New York City manager and I was freelancing with all these different agents and for like, the few months that I was not gonna leave New York.4 (50m 25s):And wait2 (50m 26s):A minute, wait a minute, wait. A I gotta go back here cuz I'm in awe. Gina, are you in awe? Cause I'm in awe that you, you had an industry night in high school and you got a manager from that. You're how old it did? 17.4 (50m 41s):17, Yeah.2 (50m 42s):You have a manager and you're freelancing. What did that feel like? I mean I'm like that. I'm like in awe. Were you like I am the shit? Are you like, this is just what I do. You're like a young, like a 17 year old professional actor. What in the hell?4 (50m 57s):I think, I think I was kind of like feeling like my dreams were coming true in a lot of ways, but I don't think I was secure in it. I definitely for sure was like, this could go away tomorrow. Am I doing the right things? You know, that manager at the time, she was lovely, but it, she did say to me like, you should move to Los Angeles. And at that point I just wanted to go to college and it, and most of the options were on the east coast that I wanted to, to, you know, except for Boston University. Well, Boston's east coast too. But she just said like, Well I just feel like if you move to the west to LA like later you're gonna be over the hill. I was 17, oh my god I was 17. God.4 (51m 36s):And2 (51m 37s):That's, that's such projection. It's such projection. It's all, I mean they mean even if they mean well, it's still projection. So you had this manager, but you were, and you were auditioning, I'm assuming in New York City. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but you really wanted to go to college and so4 (51m 55s):I really wanted to go2 (51m 56s):To college. Okay, so you wanted to go to suny. What happened there? Why, how did you end up at nyu?4 (52m 2s):Oh, so I got in to purchase, which was, which was a tough choice because SUNY purchases, like at the time was so cheap for in-state, like residents. And then, but I, I can't explain this to you at all, but I went, when I went and auditioned for nyu, I fell asleep at the audition. I remember in the waiting room. I just like, kind of not at often, I just think I just needed to be relaxed, you know? So cuz there was2 (52m 31s):All these like, what a power move.4 (52m 35s):I don't know if I was just like, you know, overwhelmed or, I don't think it was overwhelming, but I just felt like I just needed to relax. And there was like, you know, a bunch of young act New York City actors. And at the time NYU was a top conservatory. And I think I, there was like all these young actors that were like, like doing all the warmups, which I believe in a hundred percent. I do it before shows, but like, but it intimidated me in some way cuz I was like, well I didn't start acting until I was much older. I mean, I was young, but you know, in New York it felt like everybody's a kid actor that was enacting. So, I don't know, I, I fell asleep and then they woke me up and said, it's your turn.4 (53m 18s):I was like, Oh, okay. And I went in and I remember in all my auditions I did this weird thing, which, which I don't know if it's an an i, I took my shoes off in every audition. Like I, I felt like I needed to be grounded. Oh my2 (53m 31s):God. It's a power move. It's a power move. Listen to me, anyone, this is how I feel now watching youngsters. I mean, I don't hold auditions, but when, when someone has a specific bold take on, on how they're going to enter a room, they, they're yards ahead of everybody else. You made a bold move, Tina and I, I support it. I support it. You, it's like you, you had a take. Good for you.4 (54m 1s):I, I think I just needed to take care of myself. And I, I think at the time I didn't really have a lot of protection and people taking care of me in that way as a young artist. So I think I just had my own process, but part of that was being weird and saying, I need to take my shoes off and taking off my shoes. I've never told anyone that before. So Yeah, I did all my, It's1 (54m 23s):So related. This is some related to you being tough and a badass, because I think kind of what I'm hearing is however, the, I mean, I don't know necessarily the right way to say this, but you haven't waited for permission. Like you didn't wait for permission from your parents to audition for this school and you didn't, you know, ask them. Is it okay if I take you, You just did a lot, You've done a lot of things and maybe it's because you have felt like you've had to do it this vein on your own since you didn't have any family members who, who, who pursued this career. But I wanna know, Oh, sorry. You were actually, I interrupted you, you were in the middle of finishing your audition story.4 (55m 3s):No, I, I don't Where were we? I don't off.2 (55m 6s):Okay, so you That's ok. That's ok. We, I'm, I'm clocking. So you are there, you, you, you did all your auditions and you said you don't know how to explain it, but when you got into nyu, when you did your NYU audition?4 (55m 20s):Well, when I was waiting in the waiting room, when I fell asleep, that's where I was going. I just felt like I belong there. I just felt like I belonged there. I was just like, this is where I need to be. Even though purchase was my first choice and purchase at the time was very competitive. They took like 10 people in that year. And I, and it would've been cheap. Really ch that's one thing, NYU's not cheap, but I for sure, I just had this overwhelming sense that this is where I needed to be. And yeah, I, I did the audition for Beth Turner, who was amazing, amazing, I think she was a dean at the time, but auditor. And then she asked me what studio I wanted to be in and I told her Playwrights Horizons, or I think Adler is what I chose.4 (56m 11s):And she asked me why playwrights cuz she thought I should be placed in experi what was then called experimental theater wing, which is very physical. So I understand it now. She saw in me that I'm a very physical person and I told her, this is the hilarious part, I told her playwrights was my number one choice because you can study, directing, acting and design, which is what I ended up doing. And I said, I need a fallback plan, which is2 (56m 38s):Like4 (56m 39s):Directing and design, like great fallback. But2 (56m 43s):Here's, here's the thing, here's the thing, The other thing that I'm seeing is that you knew fallback plan or not, you wanted to study more than one thing. And most people go in there saying, Oh, I just wanna be a movie star so I have to go into Atlantic cuz David Mammo will cast me in. Like, you wanted a more broad sense of Yeah. You, you were like, we have several actors on the show like this where it's, they're like more renaissance people in terms of writing, acting, directing, and they're, and they're true. Like for me what it is, is a true artist instead of an actor. It's a, it's more of a collaborator and doing, making art in a collaborative setting.2 (57m 23s):And it happens to be for you right now, acting and maybe writing and maybe directing if you have or something. So I, I love that. And also my NYU audition, I went without having picked a, a studio. So they asked me where you wanna go? And I said, I have no idea. Well, they didn't let my ass in, nor should they have.4 (57m 45s):Oh, no, I, you know, I appreciate you saying that. I mean, I think when I say fallback plan, I don't really think that is what it is. Cause I didn't think, obviously, you know, it's all a risk that we're taking. It really is true that I was very, I'm very interested in all aspects of storytelling. And I did tell her that, She asked me why directing, and I said, I am, I am incredibly stimulated in a different way when thinking about directing and how a story can be told and how it's structured and, and all of that. And, and I said, but it's not necessarily my heart. My heart is acting, but my mind is very connected to directing when she asked me that question.4 (58m 29s):So yeah. So cool.1 (58m 31s):Yeah. So you mentioned earlier your manager and saying you're gonna be over the hill and so forth. So we spent a lot of time talking about the whack messages that we got, especially being, you know, nineties, mid nineties, late nineties about like what you can and can't do and who you are and who you aren't and how you come across. And, and sometimes those opinions are wildly off base and sometimes there's smack Right on. What, what about you? Where did you fall on that with terms of like the, the feedback people was were giving you?4 (59m 3s):You know, it's, I think I'm still dealing with that today. I mean, I I, the feedback was people couldn't tell if I was a leading lady or if I was a character actor. And I will say they probably thought I was a character actor just because I was a woman of color. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna be the best friend,2 (59m 27s):Right? It's because they couldn't see beyond their own biases and the biases of the industry. And look, I think some of that is a product of the environment those people are in, but also nobody challenged. And that's what I'm ask. I feel like people are at least starting to do now challenged why someone couldn't do something. So Yeah, sure. So they told you, Oh, we think you're gonna be like, you know, Sandra Bullock's best friend or like, whatever, what the sidekick, because probably because you, you were an Asian American woman, you know? Yeah.4 (1h 0m 2s):Nice. Or you're the nerd or you know, put on some glasses and now you're like, network nerdy, you know? So it's, it's, it's, How did you ask me? How did I deal with it? Is that the question?1 (1h 0m 15s):I'm just curious. Like, people usually have an anecdote or two about like, you know, I just told it on the podcast last week that, you know, I went to this thing when I was in high school, like how to get in the business. And the only thing I remember the guy saying is, thin is in, and you're either gonna get thin or you're not gonna be in, Like, it was just very binary. And by the way, that was true. Like he wasn't, he wasn't saying anything that wasn't true, but it doesn't matter because I internalized that message and then I never wanted to be in film. Then I was like, I'll, okay, that means I can never be in film and tv. Yeah. And I never even thought twice about it until like two weeks ago. That's when I remembered that.4 (1h 0m 55s):That's so heartbreaking. That's so heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, my parents even honestly said, you can't be an actor. You're, you're Asian, you know, there's nobody like you. There's no, there's not many women like you, you're not gonna be successful. You're gonna be hungry all the time. You're never gonna, you know, and you know, they weren't totally wrong. They weren't trying to hurt me. They, you know, they, I think they were trying to protect me, but ultimately it hurt me. Do you know what I mean? It hurt my confidence, it hurt, you know? So a lot of my defense mechanism is to have confidence, if that makes any sense.2 (1h 1m 28s):Well that's, that's what I'm getting is that in response to the binary, you were able to go, Well, no, I'm gonna actually take care of my own self and take my own shoes off if I want to. Actually, I'm still gonna move forward and be like, I just love the idea of a woman of color being on a soap opera as one of the, like a recurring main characters. Because soap operas to me, in terms of casting, have not in the past been known to really embrace all kinds of things. But here you are on like Americana, which is soaps to me. And I mean, you have telenovelas and whatever, but the, but American soap operas are a thing and you're on one.2 (1h 2m 10s):So I know the word trailblazer is so overused, but I feel like you're a trailblazer. And what people fail to remember about trailblazers is, is that it's dirty, sweaty, hard work because you're literally in the dirt forging a path for yourself and perhaps those that come after you. Do you feel like that when you're working, that you're, and it's not fair to put it on people like women of color or women or othered people, but do you feel like in some way you're blazing a trail for other folks? Or do you just are just like, No, I just, I wanna work fuck the rest.4 (1h 2m 46s):No, I'm, I appreciate that question. I, I feel hopeful that that's what's happening. Do I think about it consciously when I'm working? Not necessarily, but I do intend to, if I can give other people opportunities, like if I don't suit a role, if they're like, Well this person's Vietnamese, will you audition? I pass. And I usually, you know, I've played other Asian races before because there are limited amount of roles. But I also believe like you have to get to a certain level and have a certain level of accomplishments in order to open the door for other people. So I will, I have, like I said, I'm passing on this, but this is this actress that you should look at. And I've sent names and you know, things, little things like that within my power.4 (1h 3m 30s):And I'm not trying to say like I'm a trailblazer or anything like that. I'm just trying to do the work, like you said, and take the opportunities when I can and try to do my best at it. And then hopefully set as some kind of example. I don't know what, but it is a lot.2 (1h 3m 45s):And I think that like trailblazing is, is is done primarily because there is something doesn't exist, which we want to see existing. And so then we have to do it on our own. Like, I agree that like I never woke up and thought, Oh, one day I'm gonna be like, do doing all this work. I just thought, no, like why doesn't this exist? Why can't plus size or Latinas do this? And then I went ahead and tried to make that space. But yeah, I feel like most trailblazers I know and iconic class or whatever don't like have that intention, right?2 (1h 4m 25s):We're not like, Oh, I'm gonna change. It's more like, No, this shit is wrong. It should exist and I'm gonna participate in change, right? Like a change maker.4 (1h 4m 34s):I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take space basically and not be apologetic for it. And, and that's a very hard thing to, to come to, you know, It's like, it's still, I wanna apologize all the time, you know what I mean? But that's my instinct. But because I wanna be a fair person. But I think ultimately it's like, no, I, I should claim the space and not be apologetic for it. I mean, I had a teacher in theater school and you're saying, What did people put on you who said to me, Tina, he said something very complimentary about a project I had just finished and something like, you know, good marks or something and said like, you're, you're very talented or whatever. And then he said, What I love about you is that you shatter stereotypes and on the, the face of it, you would think that's a positive thing, but I think it put a heavy weight on me.4 (1h 5m 24s):I think I felt this sort of, that's not what I'm, you're you're putting, that means you're putting so much on me when you even look at me, there's a, there's an expectation of you have to be excellent all the time. You have to be so good all the time. And if you not, if you're not excellent, people are gonna go, Oh, Asian women can't act, or Asian women shouldn't be doing this. And so there was a pressure, like I felt, wow. Like I guess he was trying to say something nice, but ultimately it just put this sort of,2 (1h 5m 51s):No, it puts more work. It's more work,4 (1h 5m 54s):More work. And it also puts like, you see me as a certain lens. You can't just see my work. You're seeing something else. Yeah. You know what I mean

We talk to Wicked's own Elphaba, Jackie Burns!FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):0 (2s):Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. How I've missed you. I've missed talking to you boss. And I took quite a number of weeks off. Well, I did. She, she actually continued to record for at least one week while I was gone. And she's got a great interview. We've got a great interview coming up. She talked to Jackie burns, little Jackie burns on Broadway, wicked playing Elphaba. No big deal. Actually. She has a big deal and she's great. And so were all of you. I am heartened because even though we've taken all this time off, we've continued to grow our listenership.0 (47s):So thank you to you for listening, for continuing to listen for being a first-time listener. If you are thank you for being here, it's a privilege actually, to be able to have a platform to speak one's mind is truly a privilege. And one, I hope we do right by. We're going to be right back into the swing of things with interviews, regular weekly interviews in the fall. So stay tuned for that. And in the meantime, please enjoy this interview with Jackie burns and I'm Gina Kalichi3 (1m 34s):To theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.0 (1m 38s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.3 (1m 43s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (1m 56s):Here's the thing. Jackie burns. Congratulations. You survived theater school and you also survived this hellish trying to get you on. So squad quest squad cast, which we usually use is totally wonky this morning. And I was like, no, I, because I'm obsessed with you because I'd been researching you. I'm not a musical theater person, but I am one of these musical theater lovers that has so much reverie. And I think it is a sacred thing to sing and I don't really do it. And so I'm obsessed and you and I have the same birthday, October 4, 10, 4, buddy, ten four. So You're a little younger than me, five years, but that's okay.2 (2m 41s):I'm still, I'm super obsessed. And I also like I, when I watch, so I'm known for like going to high schools and middle schools and watching musical theater of people I'd have no connection to in what I was at when I was in Chicago, because I adore the art form and I don't do it, but I'm obsessed. So anyway, start, start from the beginning. You grew up in Connecticut. How, and then obviously you're a Broadway star. Are you back working in on Broadway? What's happening with you right now?5 (3m 13s):Oh my God. What is happening?2 (3m 15s):Yeah. I looked at your, I looked at all your profiles, but I want to hear it from you. Where are you post sort of pandemic. What is happening with your career? Tell us,5 (3m 27s):Oh God. Well like every musical theater theater,2 (3m 31s):Just say star, just say star, you are a star. You're a musical theater star. Like I understand for someone like I write for TV and I act sometimes, but like I musical theater people when I see them on stage, I'm like, I, the, the, the amount of brilliance it takes and dedication to, I have trouble on set, just moving my body and say, and you sing and move and dance and all the things. Okay. Okay. So what's happening with your career?5 (4m 2s):Oh my God. Well, first of all, Jen, I'm obsessed with you because I wish the rest of the world felt the same way about musical theater people because all of I'm most TV and film people are like, oh, you're not a real actor because you,2 (4m 13s):No, I would love to cast, listen, listen, what I mean? I would love to catch you and all your cohort when I do, because here's the thing. The body spatial awareness of musical theater folks, to know where they are in space translates onto set. So everyone listening, the 10,000 people that have downloaded this podcast that will continue to hire musical theater folks on television and film because they know bodies and bodies. It's not just a head people. So anyway, okay, go ahead. Sorry. I keep interrupting. I'm just like,5 (4m 46s):Nope. I love you. You're like making me feel so good about myself. But as every theater person, all we want to do is get on TV and film.2 (4m 55s):Oh, right. It's that's holds true for musical theater folks too. I assume that's where the dough is. Is that5 (5m 1s):That's where that money is. Because if you think about it, like once the theater show closes, we don't get a back end of it. So like, that's it. Your paycheck's done.2 (5m 9s):There's no residuals.5 (5m 10s):There's no residual.2 (5m 12s):Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So tell me what is happening now? You said you got your insurance back, which is5 (5m 17s):Paula that's hope. It's always helpful. I just did a new musical called a walk on the moon. That was based off the movie. No,2 (5m 27s):No,5 (5m 29s):No. I'll walk in the cloud. Like very similar. No,2 (5m 33s):She's dope. I like to5 (5m 34s):Have her with like Viggo, Mortensen, Schreiber. And when it was like back in the day, it's a good movie. Tony, Tony Goldwyn, like directed it and stuff. And he actually came and saw the musical. Did2 (5m 47s):He give you a compliment?5 (5m 49s):Yes, he was very nice. It was also like super handsome. You're like, hi,2 (5m 52s):I have heard. Yes.5 (5m 54s):You're just like, hello? Oh, you're married Ella and there's no, no, no, no, no. And my boyfriend's gonna listen to be like,2 (6m 6s):No, no, no. That's okay. That's okay.5 (6m 8s):No, he knows. He knows that I'm just joking. I'm just stroking on there. No. And then Pam gray wrote it. Who wrote the, who wrote the script as well? Yeah. And it's really good. And we just closed and they're hoping to bring it to Broadway. So fingers crossed. But the problem is, is that Broadway because it was closed for two years. All these shows have been trying to get theater. So that were like low man on the total whole cause it's like two years worth of shows trying to get to Broadway.2 (6m 37s):Correct.5 (6m 37s):So it's, and we're just like a little show rather than like a big show, so2 (6m 43s):Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But still worked. You have worked post pandemic, which is a huge thing. Okay. So tell me, were you a kid? Who did you grow up? You grew up in Connecticut. I'm assuming, were you a kid? Like you were five and you were like, just ho like you knew you could sing or what, how did that go? How does that, how do you discover that you can freaking sing?5 (7m 6s):You're so cute. I'm going to like put your pocket. Your energy is like seven. I'm going to be a best friend now.2 (7m 13s):And we'll together. We'll try to, we'll try to have a television show. That's like, I know they did it kind of with glee, but like Glebe, like less sassy and more earnest.5 (7m 23s):Yes. I am interested Jen, get2 (7m 26s):And throwing some murders because I, I write a lot of murder. Yeah.5 (7m 29s):Oh, I love that. That's what2 (7m 31s):Musical murders. Great. Okay. So you, you were a kid and how did this happen? That you were like, dude, I can be on stage and sing.5 (7m 38s):I just like always was obsessed with it. Like, so I started dancing when I was three and then, but like I used to get on like the little like Hutch, you know, like the fireplace such as my stage and sing, sing to like Michael Jackson's thriller. And I just like, yeah. And I used to, when I used to go to dance, like as I got older, we drove like 45 minutes. My mom drove me very sweet to dance class. And I used to sing along with the radio and I was convinced that the DJ could hear me. And it was just like a matter of time before I got recording contract.2 (8m 9s):Listen, here's the thing about that is that yeah. Some people might think it's wacky, but what I think is that bill that shows that somewhere, you envisioned a world where people were listening to you and were going to pay you. And that it was going to be like, even though it was just a fantasy in a car, what it shows is that you had like a sort of an expansive mind as a kid, as a lot of, not every kid is doing, most kids are like, oh, I sound terrible. And I'm never going to make it out of this Podunk town. Like that's, that's where I was at. So you, you were you're on. Okay. And then, so the dancing and singing, and then what about the acting part? Like, cause you could have just been a singer and a dancer.5 (8m 47s):Totally. You know what this is going to be, I'm going to throw so much shade and2 (8m 52s):You5 (8m 52s):Can do it2 (8m 53s):Any way. You want shade, half shade, full shade, whatever you need.5 (8m 57s):I'm going to give full shade just because I think it's funny. But when I went to my dance school, brought us to New York the first time, even though I lived in Connecticut, which is super close to New York, like I live two hours from the city. We never went to the city. So I went to the city for my first time when I was like, I was 15 years old and we went and saw Greece with like Broadway. That was my first Broadway show that I ever saw. And it was with like, kind of was like Brooke shields, like Rosie O'Donnell like crazy. But I, I was kind of not impressed. I was like, wait, I could do this. Like I, you know, I coveted Broadway is like so big. So like that, that I, I realized I was like, everyone sounded really great and who was dancing really great.5 (9m 41s):But I was not impressed with the acting at that point. For some reason, I just kind of was like, oh, it felt very pantomimed me2 (9m 49s):Like presentational.5 (9m 50s):Yes. Yeah. Yes. Which sometimes it's like, and that's when I moved to LA, I lived in LA for like a hot second cause I did wicked in LA and then I met my managers at T grin, I think. Yes.2 (10m 2s):Yes. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes. Tikrit is amazing. Yes.5 (10m 5s):Yeah. He's amazing. And they were like, come move to LA and like, let's get you on TV and film. And then I moved there and then the pandemic happened and I was like, well2 (10m 12s):It was right then. Oh shit.5 (10m 14s):Yeah. I was there for like six months and it was great and it was fun. And like, but the thing that I realized is like, when I first got there and I started got into acting classes there, they were like, yo, you're a musical theater. So you only like color with like two of the crayons in your coloring box rather than all of them. Because you know, it's so far back. So you just have to like, you know, play to the back of the house and it's true. So many times you go see a show and it's like so broad and present presentation. It doesn't like bring, bring truthful. So that's2 (10m 43s):I think, no, I have to say it's like, I wish LA and I'm not, I I'm sure you went to amazing classes, but I wish so. I teach at the theater school at DePaul over zoom now that's where we went. Okay. So I teach there. And so the thing is, I wish we had a better language for saying that to people. So what, for me it is, is not, when I see musical theater actors on all it is, it's not so much for me that they have two colors. What it is is that they were exceptionally built for the, the thing they were doing. Right. And now they're doing something else. So you say like, okay, look, the dope thing about you is we know all that's in there.2 (11m 25s):It's just a matter of, of like super tweaking it and making it niche, niche nuanced. And it's a total teachable skill, which I'm sure they told you to like to oh yeah. Just is like, but the good news is I think I would, you know, I would more say you have all the colors, all the people that do musical theater have all the colors in there, or you wouldn't be able to go broad. And it's just a matter of pivoting to being a more like lasered focused situation. So anyway, all the musical theater people out there, I know we all have many all the colors, but it's true that there was also like in the arts and the late nineties where theater was Uber presentational, like, like, oh my gosh.2 (12m 8s):So you saw that and you were like, okay, I want to act, I could do this. And so then what did you do? Start taking classes or what happened as a kid?5 (12m 16s):So then that's, well, that's what I, I'm a year early from my grade. So I was going into college that next year. You know what I mean? So I just decided to just go to school for straight acting, just for acting rather than musical theater. Cause I felt like if you can sing, you can sing. Obviously you can always get better and stuff like that. But I was like, I really wanted to make sure that cause everything is from a storytelling place. Right. You know what I mean? It's like, so if, if you're a BA, if you know, so anyways, so that's why I went to2 (12m 41s):Wait a minute. So here's the thing about singing? Like, okay. So when you, how do you know like your small and you're doing like, you're standing on the hearth of your fireplace and doing your thing, but like how does one know like, oh shit, I can do this because here's my thing. Like I never tried because my sister was the singer in the family. So I just assumed that that was like, every family gets one and that was her thing later in life, look, I took classes and I'm, but I'm not like a, a hearth singer like yourself. Right. So, but how do you know, do people say to you I'm serious? Do people say to you, oh my gosh, Jackie, when you're young, do you remember people saying like, you can really fucking sing?2 (13m 24s):Not maybe not with the fucking, you know what I mean?5 (13m 26s):No, they said, yeah. They said, Jackie, you can fucking sing. And I was like six and I was like, oh my God, thank you so much. You know, what's so funny is that this now everyone's going to really know our age. When I was, when I was in elementary school, my mom made me do the, what is it called? The talent show. And I sang Peter pans. I won't grow up. She made me like various.2 (13m 56s):I love that. I'm glad she, but I also glad because that could lend itself to comedy. So that's good.5 (14m 2s):Oh. And she gave me all the like, like, like I won't grow up. I had, and she had like a thing like, oh, I don't want to wear a tie. Like she, like, all the parents made a big deal out of me and they wanted to throw a bake sale to send me to star search. It was hilarious. But then all the little girls that I was friends with all hated me after.2 (14m 23s):Well, see here's well, that5 (14m 25s):Was,2 (14m 25s):That happens. I'll I'll all the time, so. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Did you go to star search first of all?5 (14m 32s):No. No. I was too busy, crying every day because I had no friends and wanting to like be homeschooled.2 (14m 37s):So yeah. Yeah. I hear you. I, I, here's the thing about that. It's like, I don't have kids and I'm never going to have kids that ship has sailed thankfully. And so I, it's interesting to think about kids and like, what is it? I wish what I wish. So what I wish never happens. And that's why I say, I wish, I wish that the kids had said, oh my gosh, Jackie, you can sing. Yes. You got attention. Teach us how to do it. Or maybe let's, let's collaborate together, but they're like six and nobody's going to fucking collaborate when they're six, maybe. But like, I wish it had been more collaborative because look, what if you had like put on a production together with the girls that, but instead they ostracize you a little bit.2 (15m 21s):So then did you keep your singing or were you like, fuck you, I'm going to sing anyway. How did that go?5 (15m 25s):Oh, and then, so then, so then I went to junior high and then I actually always said like that it was junior high and the chorus teacher made a big deal out of me. And I like won all these awards and like, got like, like whatever I got all these solos and stuff. And then the parents started complaining to the chorus teacher that why is this little girl getting all the solos and not our daughter's getting solos. So then,2 (15m 47s):Wow. So here's the thing like, look, look, look, I understand that we want things to be equal, but how about then, like if I ran in the world or even had a little part of it, this is what I would do, I would say all right. All right. All right. So Jackie can sing her ass off. She's amazing. But why don't we pivot and turn and also look at what makes little Emily and little Jane amazing. And, and, and, and bolster that instead of trying to damp in Jackie's flame, like, it just doesn't make any sense to me. So like, I have this new phrase in Hollywood and people probably hate me. And when I go to meetings, I'm like, look, we have to collaborate or die.2 (16m 27s):Like that's where we're at agree. Right? Like adapt and collaborate or get the fuck out of the way. And people are like, oh, this crazy bitch. But here's the thing. The collaboration is going to be the only thing that saves us on our planet and in many ways. So wouldn't, it have been great. If they had said I should have my own POS podcast, that's just called wouldn't it have been great because I, I, I feel like I say that so much to people like, wouldn't it have been great if they, the parents had said, oh my God, like, Jackie's dope. But if Jackie can do it, that maybe means like my Susie can tap, dance her ass off or make pottery like a motherfucker. So like, let's focus on those things rather than dampening Jackie's, you know, it's so it's so such, such terrible behavior, but okay.2 (17m 10s):So junior high also, did you, were you like, oh shit. I can sing. And I'm amazing, but these people hate my guts or how did it?5 (17m 17s):Yeah. Yes. And then the caveat is when I went to high school, the junior high teacher told the high school teacher that I was like very special. And like, they should, she should put me in like senior prior. And then that teacher hated me and told me I was flat and told me, I sucked every day to the point I stopped singing. I just,2 (17m 37s):You know what that reminds me of wait, was it, was it a lady teacher? Okay. It reminds me of glee when it's a Dina and, and what's her name and you know, the one people like to talk shit about, I don't know her. Leah, Leah, Leah.5 (17m 55s):Yeah.2 (17m 55s):So they, that exact thing happens. And it's just, it's just, and maybe that's what happened. Maybe it's jealousy. Maybe it's maybe it's like, how dare someone be special? I never got to do the thing or whatever it is. It's not your, you were a kid. It was not your PR, even in high school, your problem to figure that out. So you stopped singing what? That now there's the real travesty, right?5 (18m 16s):Yeah. So then I stopped singing in choir. I would just like lip sync and she would still be like, oh, I hear is Jackie all layers, Jackie sound. It was horrible. Miss Hilton. I'll tell you to say it anyway. She was horrible to me. And then for college, you had to write, she, you had to get a letter of recommendation. And she told me she had nothing nice to say about me and she wouldn't write it. So then the guidance counselor, I had to write it for me. It was so that I could audition for schools.2 (18m 43s):Okay. That lady, that lady is whore. That's a horrible thing.5 (18m 47s):Yeah. I know. And then my brother, this is so funny. My brother, Kevin, my brother is seven years younger than me. And so when he went to high school, he had her too. And the first day of school went through and was like, Joey burns any relationship to Jackie burns. And he was like, yeah, that's my sister. And he was, she was like, yeah, she's still trying to make it on Broadway. And he was like, oh yeah, she's on Broadway in hair actually. And it shut her right up. And then all of a sudden she was like, oh, I've always knew she was going to make it. I was like,2 (19m 16s):Okay, here's the thing like, that is a sad, sad, human being. Like, if you are a teacher of youngsters and you cannot foster them in any way, then, then you, that is not the right fit for you. My friends. And also I I'm, well, it's, it's no shocker. I was a former, I'm a former therapist for, for people when they got up, I got out of prison. So like, all my bent is like on a psychological lens, but like a trauma lens, usually with this stuff. But it's like lady, I understand Ms. Whatever. Hilman, what's her name?5 (19m 50s):Hilton2 (19m 50s):Hilton. Ms. Hilton Paris Hilton. I understand if it was somehow related, I understand that you've got trauma that you haven't worked on, whatever, but that is not the children, the high high-schoolers responsibility, my friend, that is your responsibility. Just like it's my responsibility. And Jackie's responsibility to work on the shit that happened to us. So anyway, oh my God. Well, thank gosh for guidance counselors. I would have been like the guidance counselor. I would have been like,5 (20m 16s):She was the best. Yeah.2 (20m 18s):Ms. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Ms. Fitzgerald. Okay. So then you go to connect. You went to school in Connecticut, right?5 (20m 23s):Yeah. So then my parents were like, and then I, so I graduated when I was 17, so I, and I, because we're October. Yeah. And so what was the youngest class to get our drivers?2 (20m 35s):Yes, but like the best in terms of like, I got to college, I was 17. I was like, Hey, I'm young. And I'm got,5 (20m 41s):Say that same, same, but my so, but I didn't want to go to college. I was like, I'm just gonna move to New York and be a star. And my parents were like, yeah, you're 17. So no, you're not. And I was like, oh, okay. So I didn't put a lot of effort into looking into school. So I only audition for three schools, NYU boss' conservatory and Yukon. My parents were like, you should audition for the state school. Just, you know, whatever. Yeah.2 (21m 2s):It's also cheapest, cheaper, much cheaper. Right.5 (21m 5s):So, yeah. That's what, and that's what my parents said. They were like, listen, you can graduate. They're like, this is how much money we can afford. The rest is going to be loans and on you. They're like, so you're not graduating. And being a doctor like in going into like maybe a work, maybe what we think you'll work. My parents were always very supportive of me.2 (21m 22s):That's awesome.5 (21m 23s):So great. Yeah. They were never, they were, they weren't like, you need a backup plan. They were like, yeah, we think you'll make it. But they were like, you don't go. Right. So like, you know, they're like, you can graduate with a shit ton of debt or you can graduate basically debt free. And I chose to go to school debt free. I was like2 (21m 41s):So smart because let me tell you something. When the sheriff comes to your house, because you don't pay off your grad school loans, Jen Bosworth, Ramirez over here and says, you took out a private loan for your grad school in counseling psych, and you never paid it back. And so now we're here to collect. Literally the sheriff came to my house. I thought to myself, this was a poor choice that I, I did not need to take out this loan that I apparently, I mean, look, fit shit, happens for a reason. But what I'm saying is when I hear these stories, that people that chose to be debt free instead of go to Juilliard and take out $7,700,000 in debt or whatever, or in loans, I'm like, yes, because especially in this career, even if you are brilliant, and even if you are magical and are a star, you it's still, the paycheck is the paycheck right.2 (22m 29s):On Broadway. So, so good for you. Okay. So you up, well, how was your college experience, Jackie? Like, how would you say that was5 (22m 36s):Again also hilarious and the fact that, because I sang and I went to school for just straight acting, they all made fun of me for like sitting. They were like, oh, you want to do musical? That's not real acting. And I always left with laugh and be like, I'm going to actually work. So, you know,2 (22m 53s):Oh, people or any. Okay. So when I was on crew, I was on crew at DePaul theater school and we would do one musical a year, which I was never casting, but5 (23m 4s):Same thing we did one musical a year,2 (23m 6s):I guess. Were you the, I hope you were the fucking star everyone.5 (23m 9s):No. Sometimes no, because the grad actors would be the stars.2 (23m 14s):Oh my God. I bet they're kicking themselves. But anyway, okay. So I was crew and I was on makeup and I think Gina was too. And anyway, w I was on crew and I would literally, and it was into the woods, which is my favorite. And I would sit on the edge of the stage and Rapunzel, this woman, Jen, who was a Rapunzel and reposal, I would watch. And I would be like, oh my gosh. And Brockie, I think it was Brockie who did last midnight. And I just was be like, this is magic. So anyway, okay. So that was like me. And I would like miss my, my job because I would be listening and watching these musical theater people, I just would love, they were, I was like in love.2 (23m 54s):So anyway. Okay. So when you, you wouldn't be the star at Yukon5 (23m 58s):Sometimes, sometimes that like you, like, yeah. Towards the end, I started getting some starring work roles, which was great.2 (24m 4s):What was your favorite role at Yukon?5 (24m 11s):You know what I think it's, I think it was my favorite role. Cause I would never get cast in the real world was Joanna and Sweeney. Todd, because putting me in a bland blonde wig is it's a very unfortunate level. Oh, it's not good.2 (24m 24s):Okay. Okay. So you, Joanna is sweet. Sweet has a rough one.5 (24m 28s):Yeah. And also we love murder, but so like I'm not your quintessential ingenue and you know what I mean? Like, I don't have an ingenue look, you know,2 (24m 38s):You have more of like a fierce, like a fierce, like a warrior villain look.5 (24m 42s):Yeah. I'm a, I'm a Maleficent. I'm not an Elsa. You know what I mean? Like that's2 (24m 48s):Is what it is. It is what it is. I5 (24m 50s):Love it. Yeah.2 (24m 51s):I'm the crazy neighbor. I'm the crazy lady. I love it. I'll take it.5 (24m 56s):Yeah. Save. So it's like, I would never play that in the real world. So I loved that because it was a chance for me. Cause I never get to the icing can sing soprano. Nobody knows that like really well, like I actually prefer seas, but I don't ever sing soprano because,2 (25m 10s):Oh, I didn't understand that. Of course like the way the, the, the, the, the part is written. Yeah. The ingenue is probably our Sopranos.5 (25m 20s):Yeah. This is their soprano. And they're like the little blonde next door.2 (25m 23s):And the earthier grounded tone is more of the villainous to, or like the serious business tone. Okay. Very cool. Very cool. Okay. So also sweetened, I didn't know when I saw it, when I was younger, that what it was about and I saw it and I was like, what the fuck is going out? These meat pies, this is cannibalism. And it was crazy. Yeah. I love it now. Cause I write about that stuff, but like, I was like, why is this, why are they, why is he's cutting his throat? What's happening here. So anyway, I thought it was going to be like wizard of Oz. No, no, like, yeah. I didn't know. So. Okay. So you graduate and then are you like, fuck it, I'm moving to New York right away. Like how did this go?5 (26m 2s):Yeah. And then I moved out into New York to New York, with my best friend from college. We got randomly put together. She was not an actor. I didn't really hang out with any of the acting people. I like hung out with all normal people.2 (26m 13s):That's much better choice.5 (26m 16s):Yeah. And so, and even though going to school for straight acting, I wasn't around music, musical theater, people are a different energy, especially, it's a lot of, you know,2 (26m 26s):And he, you know, it's a lot, but it's also, I got to say like, it's a lot. And as I get older, I really appreciate it more because it's a way of sort of owning your space. But like when you were in high school and college and you sit in a restaurant next to a table of musical theater people, you're like, oh God, may I may lose it. So, yeah. Okay. So you graduate and you and your roommate from Yukon move into Manhattan or what, where do you go to5 (26m 50s):Yeah, we move it. Yeah. We, we lived together for 11 years actually. Yeah. Like we were like common law until I moved in with my ex-husband at the time. Like yeah. Like,2 (26m 60s):Yeah. Okay. And so what happens? You get an agent. How does this work for you? Jacqueline?5 (27m 4s):Yeah. It's so funny. So, well, I, I have such a random way. So I moved and I went to one audition.2 (27m 11s):What was it? Four, four. I5 (27m 12s):Don't even remember. I just remember I was at Chelsea studio. I don't even think that they2 (27m 17s):Do physical theater.5 (27m 18s):It was musical theater. And that was another thing because they didn't go to musical theater school. I didn't have like a2 (27m 23s):Book,5 (27m 25s):Like, so like, you know, I went to this, it was like a cattle call audition with like, you know, as non-union 8 million girls in a room2 (27m 33s):Shit. And they all had books and shit. I don't, I didn't even know what a book was. Cause I, until like last year I was like, she's like, I gotta refresh my book. I was like, yeah, just get a book, any book? And she's like, no girl. No. So, okay. So you show up there and how does it go? Are you nervous? Are you like, no, I can fucking sing. Fuck you.5 (27m 50s):No, I, I, I was there and I was waiting and everybody was wearing like the same dresses. It was like straight up like Jason, Robert Brown, you know, from last five years. And everybody's like talking about what they've done and dah, dah, dah, and their book and what they're going to sing. And I just had a panic attack and I left. I was like, Nope, I'm going. And I didn't audition for like two years. I just like lived in the city and like waitressed and like hung out with my friends. You know what I mean? It just was like a ridiculous,2 (28m 15s):Yeah. Living your life, like living your life. Like, you know what? I, I respect that. Like I, I, okay. The one, oh my God. The one audition girl I had. Oh my gosh. So I had to go to the lyric opera of Chicago because they were, they were, they were supposedly hiring non singers for like, or like just singers, but non, non opera singers for this, this thing that this big New York person was coming in the Merry widow of, I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Fine. So my agent's like, you got, I'm like, you know, I don't sing. They're like, no, no. They're just looking for people that can carry a tune or like, and I'm like, okay. But you know, and she's like, no, just go it's for this non more of an acting funny part.2 (28m 59s):And I'm like, okay, dude, like just learn 12 bars. So I, I learned the Cinderella stepsister song from Rogers and Hammerstein. Like why would a one out of eight? It's like a, it's like the ridiculous. Okay. So I go and I go into the bowels of the opera, the, the lyric opera where there's no cell reception. So I can't like text anyone and be like, I'm fucking in the wrong place. What the fuck? All the women come in, Jackie and they start and I hear them warming up and they're seeing opera opera. And I'm like, okay, okay. So I go to the bathroom, no reception. I'm trying to call my agent. Like I can't do this. And I go out and they're like, Jen, you're up? And I walk in.2 (29m 40s):Yeah, I'd walk in. And I hand my music to the piano player and he, and it's all these people. I never been to a musical theater audition, let alone an opera situation. And the guy on the panel just starts and I blacked out. I don't know what happened, Jackie. I didn't, I, I, I don't know what happened. It was awful. And I, I, like, I like left my body and they walk out and I'm like, and I walk out on the corner in Chicago downtown, and it just opens up. It starts pouring on me and I start crying on the corner and I call my agent. I'm like, I don't think it went so well. And then I tell them, anyway, I have no recollection of the, the, the audition.2 (30m 24s):Like I blacked out. So listen, I understand. And I couldn't sing and you could sing. And you were like, I'm out. So, so, okay. So you left and you for two years, you were a waitress and you were, you were kicking it with your friends. And then how did you work your way? Back in5 (30m 40s):My best friend came in with a backstage. She didn't even really know what it was. And she was like, you have to go to this audition today. Or you can't like hang out tonight. And I was like, she was like, come on, you didn't come. You didn't move here to be a waitress. And I was2 (30m 52s):Like, what was it for5 (30m 54s):Tokyo Disney in Japan?2 (30m 56s):Oh,5 (30m 57s):It was hilarious. And that, and I booked it. And that was my first job.2 (30m 60s):You went to Tokyo and you were worked at Disney.5 (31m 2s):Yeah. It was so fun. And they had this Broadway review. So I did this broad, they had this Broadway review show where I sang like mama rose and Avita. And like, it was hilarious. It was so fun. Yeah. It was so fun.2 (31m 15s):Did you do that Jackie?5 (31m 17s):Because nine months.2 (31m 19s):Oh my gosh.5 (31m 20s):So we2 (31m 21s):Did that. You make good money.5 (31m 23s):Yeah. It was great money. And then, and then I met this guy climbing, Mount Fuji, this Australian guy, and like fell in love. And so then I called my best friend, Rachel, who is just like the coolest person. And I was like, let's go to Australia. I also didn't like New York when I moved there, like, and she was like, okay. So like, we moved to Australia for like a year and like hung out there. And then I w we got kicked out cause our visa ran out, you know? And then, so then we came back to New York and I still hated New York. And I was like, Ugh,2 (31m 51s):What is your waving? And wait a minute. What you hate about it? Like, what did you not like about New York when you moved there?5 (31m 57s):Non-green you talk about Connecticut and the green light. And I live literally in2 (32m 1s):The middle of the middle of that,5 (32m 2s):On the shoreline, in the middle of nowhere, live in like a lake. It's all like, you know, it's like beautiful. And I'm a very outdoorsy girl. So it was just like, it was so ugly, concrete. It was so dirty. And I just was like, I missed the outdoors, you know what I mean? I miss like green. And so I just, I didn't, I just didn't like it, you know, now I love the city, but like, I just, I did not, it took me a while, but then I came back and I was like, that still don't want to be here. So I auditioned for a cruise ship and I got this. So then I went on a cruise ship and I was supposed to be there for nine months. And then four months into the cruise ship. I was like, what am I doing with my life? Like, I don't want to be like singing to old people, sleeping in the audience. Like, you know what I mean? So2 (32m 42s):Listen, it's old people. And then me, I go to those and I'm on the cruise. And I go to the musical reviews and I am like weeping in the audience and share5 (32m 53s): yeah.2 (32m 58s):Yeah. People sleeping. Yeah. No, I was like the one person and I know they were all asleep or like, or like snoring or like maybe a coma and like I, or like dead. And I was like, oh my God, this is the best thing. But I usually was alone in that. Okay. So you got off the cruise ship for months and you were like, Nope.5 (33m 15s):Yeah. And it was hilarious. Cause they, the lady, because with the way the cruise ship worked, like if you just leave, then you have to pay out your contract, which I did not want to do. Cause you, you know, so I was like, yeah, I'm having, I was like, I'm having, I said I was having episodes of like wanting to jump, you know what I mean? Cause like not seeing land for so long is like, and it was hilarious. Cause the lady totally knew the director knew I was lying. Her name's Natalie. And she was like, Jackie, she was like, if, if you say this, you'll never work on a cruise ship again, like you'll never get to come. And I was like, I'm okay with that.2 (33m 48s):So you got off.5 (33m 51s):So then I got off and2 (33m 53s):It's like a, it's like a psychological discharge kind of a5 (33m 55s):Situation. They don't want you to jump.2 (33m 58s):No, no, they don't want that.5 (33m 60s):No. And so then I'm moved back to the city and I was like, all right, I'm gonna audition. And, and so at that point I auditioned for this smokey Joe's yeah, yeah. I'd done like five smoking joints and this vector. Yeah. This, it was like one of my favorites. This cast director was like, Steven dandle is so nice. He was like, I want to help me call me the, after my audition. He was like, I think you're super talented. I want to help you. I want to help you get an agent. And I was like, okay. I was just very lucky. And so that's how I got my first agent. And then I had an audition for hair in the park, in Shakespeare, in the park and books that, so that, and I remember calling my parents when I got that. And I was like, this is, this is like the chicken before the egg type of thing, you know?5 (34m 41s):It's like, it's like, we love you, but you've never done probably before. So we can't give you a better show. And you're like, but how do I get a Broadway show? Unless you give me a Broadway show, you know what I mean? I was like, this is a game changer. And I knew, and it was great. And that's like kind of then from there on like2 (34m 56s):Here, was that, what year was that? The hair in the park here in the park.5 (35m 1s):I want to say it was it 2007.2 (35m 4s):Okay. Okay. Amazing.5 (35m 8s):Yeah. And it was great. And then while I was doing that in the park, all the girls in my dressing room were going in for this new show called rock of ages and, and, and my agents were small at the time, so they couldn't get me. I couldn't get in. And I was like, what the F I'm so right for this show. And then finally at the end I got an audition and there was one roll left the stage swing for like the dancer tracks. And I, at that point hadn't danced since I was 17, had been like, you know, almost 10 years. And I can tell you, I blew that, see dance so bad. Like everyone was going that one way. And I was one of those where it's like, there's no way I'm getting this, but I booked it because the music director fought for me and was like, no, I really want her voice.5 (35m 50s):Like I really want her. And so thankfully2 (35m 53s):We talk a lot about on this podcast and I just talk a lot about it in my consulting and stuff with my clients. It's like, here's the thing. Like, and, and, and tell me your thoughts on this. Like my, my, you know, my new sort of vision for things is look, and the people have told me this and I never listened because I was a fucking idiot. But like, like we're booking the room, we're not booking the job. Right. We're booking the people like that. We're booking our champions. We're making fans of our work everywhere we go. And we just don't know who our champions are going to be. So you might as well, like, just really try to, what is it like you're booking the room, right?2 (36m 35s):Like we're. Yeah. So, so you had these champions early on, not that you didn't have the talent and the fucking work ethic too, but you had champions like the guy who called the casting man who called you and told you, I want to help you. And like, and, and, and then the, the musical director on rock of ages, that's amazing. And I think, and I'm trying to sort of figure out like, and what are your thoughts on Why people want to champion certain people? Is it because that, I guess it's a leading question. What I think is that people are decent humans and they want to champion other decent humans, not just the talented voice or the stunning person, but like the decency inside the human something comes through.2 (37m 23s):Do you think that's, that has any validity to it or am I crazy?5 (37m 27s):No, I do think like you onset or in a, in a, in rehearsal, you're with these people for so many hours, if the person is talented, but they suck as a human, like who wants to be suck on sets with 16 hours or in a rehearsal room for eight hours? You know what I mean? Like,2 (37m 44s):I feel like you are one of those. And I would say yes, because I'm talking to you and I'm good with, I know people, but like what, what do you think it is about you? Like, I'm always talking about this to famous people and to stars and to like, what do you think it is about you that people want to work with?5 (38m 4s):I'm very I'm game to do anything. Like I I've no ego.2 (38m 9s):You're curious. You're humble. You have fond. It sounds like you have fun. You like that?5 (38m 15s):Yes. I think my biggest fault, like is that I am humble to a fault. So therefore I think we tell people how to treat us. So sometimes my humility will come across as a lack of confidence. And that's the problem. Cause you know, it's like, it's a lot of money there. Producers are putting on your shoulders and the person that comes in with the confidence that like, Hey, I'm amazing.2 (38m 39s):Let me tell you something. I'm five years older than you. And I'm just getting it. So I now can walk into a room and first excuse my language, but now I can walk into a room and I can swing my Dick. Yeah. I know I have done the work. I have seen what's out there and I know what I have to contribute and I'm also not. But I spent, and if you listen to it all in the podcast, you know, both Gina and I, we spent our twenties and even my thirties going pick me, choose me, love me on some level. Even if I wasn't saying that it was coming out somehow in rooms. Right. So nobody wants that.2 (39m 20s):Right? Like nobody, that's not, it's not even something it's not even about attractiveness. It's like not even attractive in like a human way. Right? Like in a working relationship kind of way. So now I walk in and I'm like, it's not that. And I think also like, and people say this all the time, like people mistake, humbleness for weakness all the time, but there's also something in us that's projecting this sort of smallness. Even if we're not saying it until now, like it took me until 40, like whatever to say, oh fuck, no, I've seen what's out there. And I know I belong and it's not constant. So do you feel like you're coming into that?5 (40m 1s):Yeah. I think that, I feel like I had figured it out like two years before the pandemic. I really kind of, you know what it was for me. I stood by for Idina Menzel and this show called if then on Broadway. And it was the height of her career. It was when frozen came out and she was on the Oscars. And like everybody she's like, you know, everyone was obsessed with her. They were coming to see her specifically in the show. They weren't coming to see the show. They were coming to see her standing by for her people were viscerally angry when I was on, you know what I mean? Because you know, they came to see like, people have flown in from me. I had this British woman yell at me because like she had flown in from England and to see a Dina and I was on and I was like, I'm sorry, like it's not my fault.5 (40m 45s):You know what I mean? Like, you know, so, but that gave me the comp and I had to like win the audience over, like, you know what I mean?2 (40m 54s):So they don't throw things at you, right?5 (40m 56s):Yeah. Like you could feel the shift. There was a song called what the fuck? And like, I always knew. I'd like, that's like, when I would get the audience, that's your2 (41m 3s):Side5 (41m 3s):Where they'd be like, okay, like it's not a Deena. Like, she's2 (41m 6s):Awesome.5 (41m 7s):But this girl, like, it's not like a terrible name. Right. You know what I mean? Like,2 (41m 12s):But that help, we can't help. But like this lady.5 (41m 14s):Yeah. Like, you know what I mean? Like she's at least like, not bad. So that gave me the confidence. Like I had gotten to the place where I was like, ma I believed in myself because it had to, because nobody else did. Right. So I had to like, be like, okay. And that's, I was in a really good place. And the same thing, like when I moved to LA, like I was doing really well, like getting into like producer session callbacks for like service. Like you don't get like, great. And then the pandemic happened and I'm slowly getting my mojo back. Because like, after having that two years, almost three years of like living in this void, this vacuum of self-tapes where you don't know what's going on, you know, like there's no creativity.2 (41m 51s):Yes.5 (41m 52s):That I'm slowly being like, okay, I do know what I'm doing.2 (41m 57s):Can you tell Tega right. Yes. I see you. And maybe I'll listen to this, send it to them. I feel like if I were an Tikosyn, you'd be like, okay, crazy bitch. You don't know what you're doing, but listen, if I were marketing, you I'd be like, she is the next Rene Russo meets. And I haven't figured out the meats part, but Like, I always have a meats, you know? And it's going to be someone, a little weirder. You know what I mean? Like my cause I always skew weird. So when I, so like, you are like, I can see it, but oh, you're the next Rene Russo. But with a fucking voice, how about that? That's how I would pitch you pitch you with a fucking voice to make the gods weep.2 (42m 38s):That's how I would pitch not a manager, but you know, and I haven't actually heard you sing, although you sang a little bit in, I write in this tape, I can tell, you can tell like musical theater and like people could really sing, even when they're like joking around. It's like, wow, the rest of us are like, what the fuck was that? When I mess around, I'm like, man, you're like, oh, it was just like a little bit like, whoa, what the fuck? So anyway, the point is, you're brilliant. And I could totally, I could see you being like the next bad-ass Rene Russo type. Who's like, you know, in the Thomas crown affair, like that kind of thing. That's how I would T grim5 (43m 14s):T grin. Listen, I tell him, tell him,2 (43m 16s):Tell him. And he's gonna be like, oh, that crazy bitch. So, okay. The thing is now. So we have about 10 minutes left and I want to focus on like, what are your dreams? Like, where do you want to be? What do you want to do? Where do you want to go?5 (43m 31s):So many good questions. I mean, I want to originate. I really just want to be originating roles. Okay.2 (43m 37s):Okay. Tell me more about what that means. Like, I don't even, we don't talk like that in Hollywood. So what does that mean?5 (43m 42s):Well, like, cause you know, Broadway shows, there's like a lot of long running shows, but like originated wicked. So they wrote the show for her. You know what I mean?2 (43m 52s):Okay. So this is great to know because a lot of us don't know this. Okay. So they write for the people. She did not audition for that or she did5 (44m 2s):No, she, no, she auditioned, but then once she got it. Yeah. So it's like all of a sudden if like, oh, you know, like,2 (44m 10s):Okay, I am that's okay. I have a dog I'm at my office, but I have a crazy dog named Doris. Who's insane. So don't worry.5 (44m 18s):I have a puppy. And she's like, she's hit her like, oh yeah. I've been2 (44m 22s):Grab her.5 (44m 24s):Can you come over here please? No. Okay. So yeah like, like with, if then they like, you know, like they changed so many keys for her to like find what is good for her, you know what I know? So that way this is done, but so, you know, I want to originate. I want to be at a place where I'm not replacing, you know, I want to be originating. So that way2 (44m 51s):Originating roles on Broadway.5 (44m 54s):Yes. And I really want to get into TV and film. I like want to be doing2 (44m 57s):So. So yeah. And I don't think there's any reason why not. And it's starting to pick up again. So like I would just put it out there that I, if I were you, I would give I'm giving you totally unsolicited advice To LA for another try another six months out here. And I feel like it's different. What I feel in LA right now. And it's why I moved from Chicago is that there is an expansiveness in Los Angeles that look, it can be full of garbage, of course. But there is an expansiveness and the people I'm meeting are like, especially the younger folks are like creating massive amounts of art and content.2 (45m 40s):And even I'm seeing theater out here and it's amazing. And also film and TV. So all I would say is, I think we're in an age where I, it does feel like in LA a lot of things and people listening like old, old timers listening are probably like, oh, shut up. But like, I do feel like we are coming to the end of where it's oversaturated with content from streamers and people are like, no, no, no, we don't need more. What we need is like very specific shows and movies that are, I think we're good. We're contracting a little bit, which is not bad. So it's going to be more for me anyway, like gritty, heartfelt, smaller stories, which I fucking adore.2 (46m 23s):So all I'm saying is come to LA and we'll be friends. That's what I'm saying, Come to my office and we can hang out and do all the things. But anyway, okay. So you want to do film and TV? Like what kind of roles? Like if I said to you, okay, magic wand. Here you go. Jackie, what kind of roles are you? I know you're like, so game to play anything, but like where do you think you'd really shine in television and film?5 (46m 48s):I think I'd really, that's a good, such a good, really good question. I think I am more of a, like of a quirkier than most people think I am. Do you know what I mean? Like a lot of people, especially like when I straightened my hair and like, they're like, oh, you're like a sexy, like, you know, and I'm like, I'm really kind of goofy and quirky.2 (47m 9s):Yeah. You're like more of an ally McBeal than a like Gina Gershon. Bad-ass like that you have a more quirky quirkiness to it.5 (47m 18s):Yes. And because I looked the way I looked people, I was just thinking about baddest, but I have a softness about me that I can't get rid of. Like I did just, there just is I, and so I am like the funny, but like also I'm going to tell you the truth. Cause I do have like, but in a, not in a, like, I'm going to cut your throat kind of way.2 (47m 38s):It's not aggressive. It's yeah. It's more like Ernest than that. There is an earnest quality.5 (47m 45s):Yeah. So I'm that? I just think like, you know, the best friend that's going to keep it real, but also as kind of a shit show and like, yeah,2 (47m 51s):Yeah, yeah. It's reminds me of like, you could, you could play a lot of things, but like you could play the partner of someone on television who like, who like keeps their partner in line, but it's also funny and sassy, but like is the, is the true north to somebody right. And earnest true north that's totally.5 (48m 15s):Yeah. Yes.2 (48m 17s):I feel like I should have a podcast where people come on and I like help market them.5 (48m 21s):I would, yes. I think that people wouldn't2 (48m 24s):Malarious, I'd be like, you're a real kind of Mike Shannon meats, you know, I don't know, John C. Riley type with a side of Ben Affleck or something like that. But anyway. Yeah. So, okay. So you want to do that and then are you auditioning right now for, is there what's happening on Broadway? What's happening off Broadway that you, that are you excited about? Anything what's happening? That you're excited about? Nothing. Okay, great.5 (48m 50s):I sadly to say it's kind of been really dry. Like I haven't had much additions and it's been a little like brutal.2 (49m 0s):Okay. Good to know. I mean, I look, look, it's better to be honest because here's the thing, like if we, and it also comes across, you know, that like if people come on this podcast or like, I'm talking to someone even in a party and they're like, it's fabulous. I mean, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, I don't buy this because I just don't buy it. My bullshit meter goes off. So it's been brutal. And I have to say like, it's been a really brutal for me too, but like in a, in a, in a, across the board. And I think this is a time. I mean, we're, I'm, I'm a triple Libra. So I have sun moon rising, all Libra, which means that I'm just a bonkers, but it also means I, we, I feel that we are in a huge transition time and as systems, whether that's Broadway, Hollywood, the government, whatever you believe, whatever systems as they sort of start to falter and fall in some ways, which is scary.2 (49m 55s):Cause it's, you know, I don't know. I have my thoughts about capitalism, but like systems are failing a little bit just because of the pandemic because of life, the climate, all this stuff, those of us in positions too are called to really come stand up and say, what do I want? How can I help? How can I be of service? And what do I really want to create? So it's like a beautiful time for artists to say, look, it's brutal too, but like there's opportunity in the brutality of like, wait a minute, who do I want to collaborate with? How do I want to collaborate? What kind of art do I want to make?2 (50m 35s):And what am I willing to do to make a living? And what am I not? And mostly for me, it's been about like, who do I want to align with? Who do I want to make, have partnerships with? And that to me is more important actually than the tasks I'm doing. It's like if I go into a writer's room and the, and the showrunners are fantastic and the writers are like we're crew and a team it's like, that would be I, and I'm all, I'm like totally putting this out into the universe. So I haven't been there yet. So like, I'm pre, but like, I can imagine that that is like more important to me than the actual dialogue or writing. Do you know what I mean?5 (51m 15s):Yes. I2 (51m 16s):Will work on whatever show, if the people in charge and the team are dope as hell, it's sort of not as important, what the it's still important, but it's not like it's more for me anyway. It's more the team, right? It's the team and who gets me and who I get. And at the end of the day, am I willing to go to bat for these people? And are they willing to go to bat for me versus it's like, again, it goes back to like collaboration versus, you know, like pick me, choose me, love me. And so that's what I wish for you is like, is like you find your next team of people that are like your champions that you can champion.2 (51m 57s):And then I think the project will sort of work itself out. Do you know what I mean?5 (52m 1s):Yeah, totally.2 (52m 2s):So listen, casting, listen, listen, people, Jackie burns. Bad-ass not just musical theater star, but musical theater star. And yeah. So what else is happening? Anything else you need to say, like to your, to people listening that they must to know about you or where you are in your life in the world? Because this is like, we talk a lot about in this podcast about legacy. Like I don't have kids, so I don't know. So a lot of people can have their legacy through their children and I don't have that. And I have an asshole dog that doesn't give a shit about legacy and she's not gonna do anything for legacy. So I, my legacy is like this part of it is this podcast, which is going to be around forever until the aliens, you know, whatever.2 (52m 46s):And so, or whoever's taking over, what do you want, what do you have anything to say for posterity? That's like going to be immortalized forever on in the cloud?5 (52m 59s):I think for me, I am, it's all about like work ethic. I am such a, I never take for, I never take for granted. Like a lot of people will talk about, and it's not to say that I don't get tired and I don't get like, there aren't times where I'm like, oh God, this is brutal. But there, it never leaves me in the fact that like, anytime I get to do a show and I get stressed out about, I am definitely, I deal with my own issues with perfection. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. Like where, but it never leaves me that like, I am so lucky to get to do this. And I am so grateful for the audience. Like, it makes me want to cry. Like I like when people are like, oh, sometimes I go on autopilot where it's like, oh, it's the seventh show of the week. And it's like, but those people in that seven show or eights or a weekend spent so much money to come and see this show that I can't help, but give 180% every time I get out the gate because I am so appreciate.5 (53m 50s):Cause I know if they didn't come, we wouldn't have a job. And also there's like 8 million people that were up for this one role. And somehow I got it. And I'm not saying I wasn't talented enough for it because you know, we all are.2 (54m 4s):Yeah. But you got it. And it's your re there's like a responsibility and a stewardship of the, and a seriousness of the profession and the role and the, and the it's like sacred in a way. Like, it's a thing. I, I totally, I hear that. Okay.5 (54m 20s):I think it's so important. And I think it's so important to give, like, this is like, it's hilarious. Like I don't, unless I can do a certain note, like, unless if I can, if I can't take up a note consistently eight times a week, I won't do it because I don't think it's fair that like, oh, well I can do it like three times a week. So those special three peep, three shows, they get it. And then the other ones get my, like, you know, less than show, like regular show because like they all paid a crap ton of money. So like, for me, I don't know, it's a cuckoo thing. Like I'm not somebody who's like giving you a different vocal show every day, depending on how I feel. I am going to give you the, like, I want2 (54m 60s):You give your best all the time. If you're when possible. And when, and if, and you don't mess around with that, you like, don't try to manipulate what people are going to get. And I, you know, I did a solo show, which was the word, like I loved my solo show in New York, but I did a solo show about cancer. And I worked for Nick cage for years. So that's in my solo show. I have like this crazy life. I was a therapist, all the things. So yeah, I've had a crazy life, but the point is I did this solo show and one night there was one ticket sold, okay. One ticket. And I went to my friend and I was like mother fucker. And I said, I don't do I do this show for one person. And she said, listen to me, who are you not to do the show for one person?2 (55m 40s):What if that one person needs to hear what you have to say? Who are you not to do the show? And I did it. And I, I did the show and I hope they got something out of it. And I, but, but she just said like, that person needs to hear what you have to say. They, they, they need to, and who are you not to give it to them? If that's your gift to offer, you've got to give it. And I was like, oh, and it changed my sort of my idea of like what it means to be in collaboration with the audience and like it, I was like, oh right. One person matters. That matters, right? Like that matters the one person, even if it's one person that got a discount ticket in Idaho that flew it, they matter to see you in wicked or whatever.0 (56m 39s):If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

Intro: Final Draft is conspiring against us, Beastie Boys' Adam Horowitz, Doris the dog loves the vet, Jim Croce, The Cure. Let Me Run This By You: storytelling, Risk Podcast, The MothInterview: We talk to the creator and producer of You're Being Ridiculous, Jeremy Owens, about offending people, porn, Samantha Irby, Roosevelt University, University of Arkansas, The URTAs, King Lear, Greg Vinkler, Barbara Gaines, Plautus' The Rope, P.F. Changs, Kyogen, Threepenny Opera, Steppenwolf, Brene Brown, Marianne Williamson.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited): 2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.3 (15s):At 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (34s):Yeah.1 (35s):It was one of these things where it's like, final draft will not let you restart your computer. I'm like, fuck you. Final draft. What did you ever do for me? Final draft writer, duet. They're all, they're all plotting against me,2 (47s):But what is, what is, what does final draft have to do with your camera working on this?1 (53s):So in order to, to be okay, the bottom line is I need a new computer. Okay. Let's start there second. Okay. That's the first level of problems. It's like the deepest level. And then we, if we go up a little bit into the level of problems, it is that final draft that I might camera in order to use my camera. Sometimes I have to restart my computer because it's so old. Right. So I need to restart,2 (1m 19s):You know, I want to do any one thing in the morning I got, are really rev my engine.1 (1m 26s):So like, I'm like, okay, well, in order to restart the computer, it's like not letting me restart it because final draft is this because probably final draft is so advanced and my computer is so Jack.2 (1m 39s):Totally. And that's how they get you mad. I feel like they all conspired to be like, okay, well let's make it. So this will work on this version. So then,1 (1m 49s):So anyway, I see you, you look great. I look like shit. So it's probably better my camera's up.2 (1m 57s):So a couple of things I keep forgetting to ask you on here, about how, how did it come to be that you were chatting in the parking lot with Adam Horowitz about your dogs, Volvo.1 (2m 12s):We never talked about that.2 (2m 14s):We did not.1 (2m 15s):Okay. So I rule up, so my dog, Doris, who everyone knows that listens to the podcast and by everyone, I mean, whoever listens to the podcast, you know what I mean? So hopefully it's growing and growing, listen and rate the podcast. Anyway, the point is I roll up to the vet, which I do oh about every other week, because my dog is a very high maintenance. And so she's just so she of course had an ear infection. Cause she has these huge ears that collect all this bacteria. So I roll up and there's an eye and because it's COVID and everything, you have to park outside and wait, but because it's LA all the windows are down and everyone's car and there's this dude sitting in his Kia has electric Kia.1 (2m 59s):Well,2 (2m 59s):My key.1 (3m 0s):Yeah, I know. I know. I did not recognize this human being. He looked like my husband, like fifties gray, maybe had glasses on.2 (3m 13s):Why would you like all our knowledge of them is when they were so, so young. Right,1 (3m 18s):Right. So young. And I like didn't, you know, keep up with the beast. So it was like, I had other things to do, you know? So I was doing other things. So I'm, I'm like trying to corral Doris out of the car. She's crazy. She's trying to get out. She loves the vet. The backdrop is my dog2 (3m 35s):Loves the,1 (3m 36s):Oh my God. She races towards the vet with a fury that is unmatched, loves it. I2 (3m 43s):Never once heard of this in my entire life. So1 (3m 45s):She's really, really excited about the bet. So she's an extra crazy. And I get her out of the carrier to let her sniff around in the parking lot. And I see this gentleman who is the interesting thing about him is that his leg is out the window. Like he's like resting his leg. And I'm like, well, that's kind of weird for like an older dude, but whatever, it's, it's LA like, you know2 (4m 8s):That sound's going to say, I imagine that kind of thing happens in LA.1 (4m 11s):Yeah. And plus he's probably weighed been waiting and waiting for his dog forever. And so, cause you, you have to wait out there, like they don't want you to leave in case they need you and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, fine. So I, and I say, and he says, oh, a cute dog. And I'm like, oh, she's a pain in the ass. And then he's like, what's her name? And I'm like, oh, her name is Doris. And he's like, oh, that was my mom's name. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then we talked about the origin of Doris, cause it's from a Jim Croce song. And Jim Croce is someone, my husband adores the singer. The folks there yeah. Died when he was 29. Looked like he was about 60. When he died.2 (4m 47s):He was 29.1 (4m 49s):Yes. You know, he looks like David Abbott, Holly, if you ever look at me2 (4m 56s):Like a hole, I see it.1 (4m 59s):But just bringing it back to the old theater school. So, so yeah. And so he's like, we talked about Jim Croce and he's like, Jim Croce is the first person I remember dying. I had that album. And I said, yeah. And he said, that's in a Jim Croce song. And I said, yes, Leroy brown, Friday about a week ago, Leroy shooting dice. And at the end of the bar sat a girl named Doris and who that girl looked nice. And that's why we named Doris Doris. He was like, I don't remember Doris being in that song. So we get into that. Right. Okay. And then he's like, I'm like, oh, is your dog okay? And he's like, well, she, she, she got a cut on her neck and I'm like, oh shit. And I'm like, is that2 (5m 38s):A knife fight in a bar?1 (5m 39s):I was like, how did that happen? And he goes, I don't know. But like, you know, since I'm not a doctor, I figured I'd take, bring her to the vet. I'm like good plan, my friend, good plan. So he's like, I'm waiting for him and waiting for her. And I'm like, oh, okay. And then he said, what's wrong with your dog? And I said, oh my God, what? Isn't wrong with my dog? And I said, my dog has a dermatitis of the vulva and an ear infection. And he's like, wait, what? And I'm like, yes, she just she's out. She's got a lot of allergies because she's a friend. She and I did this to myself by getting a friendship. But like, yeah, she's got, and he said that his dog was really licking her butthole and he had dermatitis of the bottle. And I was like, it's the same I heard of my friend, Morgan has a Frenchie who has dermatitis of the butthole because all Frenchie owners talk about these things.1 (6m 26s):And he's like, oh, well, my dog has dermatitis of the bottle. I'm like, well, mine's got dermatitis of the Volvo. They both have, they both have like private parts itching. Right. And so then we started talking and we talked about a lot of things. Cause you have to wait forever. And then right. And so we talk and talk and talk and no clue who this person is. And he's like,2 (6m 47s):Did you say cut? There's something about that voice?1 (6m 52s):No.2 (6m 52s):No. Okay.1 (6m 54s):'cause he was kinda mumbly and also just looked so natural.2 (6m 60s):Aiming, sabotage.1 (7m 1s):No, not screaming and also not jumping around with his other two cohort. And then I just, I felt like, anyway, it just didn't cross my mind. And his shoelaces were untied. I don't know. It was like a real casual situation.2 (7m 15s):Yeah. Honestly, I would never assume somebody in a key is famous. That's my snobbery, but I wouldn't.1 (7m 21s):Yeah. I mean, I, it was a very, very, very nice camp, but it still, it was a key I said to you like, oh, that was her talking about cars. I mean, we talked about kids, cars, Manhattan. Then he said, I'm from it. I said, oh, I'm from Chicago. And he said, I'm from Manhattan. And I said, oh, I said, oh my God. I launched into this thing about how I could never live in New York because I was like to own like the most unhip like fat and ugly human and like, not in a bad way, but just like, kind of like I'm. So I just feel like, I didn't know what the fuck was going on ever in New York. Like, I didn't know which way to go, who to talk to, where to turn I was lost. And he's like, yeah. Do you know what I like about LA is like, nothing ever happens here.1 (8m 2s):That's not2 (8m 2s):True.1 (8m 3s):No. But I was like, what do you mean? He's like, I need to just like New York, like you have like a million things are always happening at any given time. Right?2 (8m 11s):Sure. It's a lot too. Like you have to do a lot of processing living in New York, you're taking your, you know, you're just taking in so much information1 (8m 19s):And that does not happen in LA and LA you're like sometimes starved for like,2 (8m 25s):Right.1 (8m 26s):But we talked about that. And then, and then by like end of conversation almost. I was like, oh, I'm Jen. I'm so sorry. And he was like, oh, I'm Adam. And I was like, okay, still, no, I had no2 (8m 40s):Adam common name,1 (8m 41s):Common name, whatever. And mom named Doris, whatever. Like, okay. And then we started talking, he said, his wife, what did he say? Oh, he bought a house in south custody. Anyway, all this stuff. He has a kid. And at the end I say, he was talking about what we, what we do. And I'm like, oh, I'm a, I'm a writer. And I'm like trying to write TV, but I also consult, I just started this business, but I wasn't, you know, I was a therapist and for felons and like, and then he got really into that. And then I said, oh, what are you doing? And he's like, oh, I was, I think he said I was in the I'm in the music business. I said, oh, that's cool. I thought he was like a producer, like maybe a classical composer or something. I don't know. That's where my mind went. And I'm like, oh, like, what do you do?1 (9m 22s):And then he said, I was in and I said, oh, what kind of music? He's like, I was in a rap trio. And I was like, wait a minute, a rap tree endorsed by this. By this time it was like, biting me. You know, it's like a whole, I'm like, oh, a rap trio. And I couldn't the only rap trio I could think of was run DMC. And I'm like, oh, he's not in that. You know, he's a white dude. There's no way. And I'm like, oh crap trio. And I was like, house of pain, Cypress hill. Like I couldn't get it together. And then I was like, and then it dawned on me. And I said, oh, and he said something, like I said, I don't remember how it came up. And he's like, oh, I'm Adam Horwitz. And I was like, oh, I was like, of course.1 (10m 2s):I said, oh my God. And then I didn't know what to say. So I just said, cause he just moved. He actually, he moved to south Pasadena, wait before I moved to Pasadena. But I said welcome to Pasadena.2 (10m 16s):Right. Because the minute, you know, it's a celebrity. It's like, it changes the ions. Wait. Yes.1 (10m 21s):Thank you. You welcome to you too.2 (10m 24s):So what I think is so interesting and must be so well, I don't know. I don't know if it's annoying or whatever it is, celebrities. You, they must have to always be in a process of deciding with when they're interacting with people, they don't know what are we going to do with this fact, like, do you know who I am? Do you not know who I am? If you know who I am, just, what does that mean? Is that why you're talking to me? And then, but he opened one of the first things you said that he said was that his mom's name was, I mean, I guess that's not unusual, but I was thinking to myself when you said that I was thinking, oh, was he hoping That would confirm not that his dad is famous.2 (11m 10s):His dad is1 (11m 10s):Trail horo. Israel.2 (11m 12s):Yeah. He's a kind of a terrible guy though.1 (11m 16s):I heard is there. I think they're both dead. I mean, from what I got, I don't know. I know he has a sister. I don't know. But like he seemed like the kind, yes, you're right. Like it must be so weird. And also I literally was so into my own world. It's like, so Los Angeles, like I, when I found out that he was, I was super excited because I wanted to say, oh, I saw you at the Metro in Chicago and stuff like that. But then I was like, oh, I can't. And so I got excited, but I also, it was literally like talking to your husband or my husband in that they're old people. Like I wanted to be more excited about the, the youthful version.2 (11m 56s):Right? You want it to be 19 year old, you eating Israel, horrible1 (12m 2s):Adam Harz and being like, let's go on a date or something. But that is not what I, that was not my inclination this time. And also his he's married to this amazing punk hero, Kathleen Hanna from bikini kill who I adore. And I know that, but I didn't bring that up either. But anyway, the point is we exchanged information because we were like, let's walk our dogs. His dog is Terry. It really hairy dog, little girl, dog named Terry. And I said, well, what kind of dog is Terry? And he goes, I don't know, very hairy. And I was like, okay, well, okay. So we may go on a dog-walking adventure. I have no idea, but lovely human, but just like soup. We are super middle age.1 (12m 43s):This is what the moral of this thing was actually not the celebrity. Part of it was the, what hit me the most Gina was the middle age in this of it all. So the other thing is like, nobody gives a shit now about the things that we give a shit about. So the BC boys, I was talking to my niece, she didn't know who that was. And so I was like, oh right. Meaning I still care who they are, but2 (13m 16s):Right. Yeah.1 (13m 17s):Time moves on timeframe.2 (13m 20s):Yeah. Periodically we have kids periodically, they'll come up to you and they'll be like, have you ever heard of this bay? Or like, my son was listening to something and I'm like, and I go, he goes, oh, I've got to play this song for you. It's this band. This is like obscure band or something like that. It was the cure. I go, are you kidding me, dude? I put white face makeup on and wore black and tried to hang my two years in junior high. I knew the cure is okay. So that was one thing. And the other thing was last time.1 (13m 52s):It super nice though. I got to say, if anybody cares, he was not a Dick head.2 (13m 56s):I care. Yeah. That's nice. I'm happy to hear that. But just one last thing about that whole, like being a celebrity, you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't, because on the one hand you, you could have somebody say, oh, it's like pretentious to not say who you are. And on the other hand, people would say, you know, you can't win. You can't, you1 (14m 14s):Can't win. That is the bottom line. Yeah. Yeah.2 (14m 17s):So the other thing was last time we talked, you said, oh, I want to save it for the podcast, but about showcase. So you were talking about getting your kids ready for showcase.1 (14m 28s):Okay. So here's the deal with that. So I, because of this podcast, I'm like, okay, is there a way to make a showcase? Not the shit show that I feel it was now, there may not be, it might be inherent in the thing. Okay. But so I'm teaching fourth year. I like, basically don't even, I don't know what I'm teaching at this point, but not even teaching anymore. I'm done. And my, my, my, my co-teacher took over, but I started noticing as I always do that, that, that the students are like, you know, crazy nervous about the showcase and also crazy nervous about agents and managers and all the things.1 (15m 9s):Now, there is no showcase in LA. There was only a quote meet and greet. There is no showcase in New York. There was only quote, a meet and greet. Look, it gets weirder in Chicago. There was a live showcase and a meet and greet. Now, I don't know what went down, but the bottom line is the ball has been dropped so many times about this showcase and about graduation and about launching that at this point, the ball is just dead in a heap deflated. Okay. So I said, okay, well, what can I do to make this fucking situation better? Because I know what it's like to be there and be like, oh my God, I'm falling behind. What if so then I'm like, okay, everybody, here's what we're going to do.1 (15m 52s):I am going to email everyone I know in LA and everywhere and say, come to this showcase and watch your digital link. They have a virtual showcase. But the problem with that is nobody. If nobody gets sees it, it doesn't matter. And so it was made in a form beans where it looked like spam. So it went to everybody's spam. So no casting directors and no agents got the fucking link. And I realized that because I told a student of mine, I said, listen, you want to be repped by this one agency, let's create a letter to them. Let's pitch them. And so then I get a call from the agent saying, we loved this letter.1 (16m 33s):Also, thank you for including, we didn't think there was a showcase.4 (16m 37s):Oh my gosh.1 (16m 39s):And I said, what's,2 (16m 41s):This has to do with just the fact that like, there's been all this administrative,1 (16m 45s):I think it's, COVID meets the problem with conservatories, which is that they do not think that launching their students is an important part part of their job. Right? Right. So it falls to nobody. And so the person in charge bless her heart is one marketing person that knows nothing. I don't believe about acting or the entertainment industry at all. There is no Jane alderman. There, there is no, at least. So I stepped in to be like the proxy, Jane alderman with another adjunct. And we were like, okay, well, how do we do this? So I am happy to say that after literally making maybe 43 phone calls, everyone has the link.1 (17m 26s):People are coming to the showcases. Now my thing is to do the meet and greet in LA to try to get people there because these, these kiddos are coming to LA, there is no showcase. I'm like, well, we, what are we doing? Like we have to have something like, so, and I also just, you know, and I know these kids, like these are my students. So like, I want to meet them. And then, so now I'm getting everyone I know to come to the meet, greet in the business and2 (17m 51s):The money thing. Like, they're like, oh, well we have, we can do it online. And so we don't have to pay for, to rent the space for,1 (17m 59s):So they wouldn't even tell me, they wouldn't even tell me. They didn't even want to give me the invite to the LA thing. I had to like fight to get the, I don't understand what is going on. But I was like, listen, all right,2 (18m 11s):DePaul, I'm going to tell you something right now in DePaul. You want to be well-regarded you want to be number one. You want to always talk about your, your alum or even not your alum. People who, who went and got kicked out about their great successes. And you don't, but you don't want to do anything to get there. And that is not how it works, how it works is you put a lot of energy and I'm not saying at the expense of teachers or whatever, but you put a lot of energy and effort into not just hyping your students, but hyping your school.2 (18m 51s):Like it should be that your school is saying, have we got a crew for you? Yeah.1 (18m 56s):And which is what I then stepped in and had to do and be like, these kids are dope. Come see this, look at this link and then come to the thing. And so all the casting and agents in Chicago are now coming. Thank God, because guess who, there was one person RSVP2 (19m 14s):Girl, and you need a bonus1 (19m 16s):Stroke. Here's what we're doing. So then I said, okay, because I'm always thinking, I'm like, okay, well, here's what I'm doing. I'm developing a launching curriculum, which I think I told you about, like, I'm developing a day, one BFA for day one of the fourth year. Here's what we're going to do to launch you. And it's not just about the showcase. It's about mentorship. It's about how can we hook you up with somebody that's in what you want to do? How can we do that? And I'm going to pitch it. I'm going to say, here you pay me $120,000. And I will sell you this program and, and hook you up with teachers and people. I know that can step in and do this with me. Like you like people in the business, like people who are on different coasts, like duh, and then we will.1 (19m 58s):So, and if you don't want to buy it, DePaul theater school, we're selling it to Northwestern or NYU or any anyone.2 (20m 4s):Well, I was going to ask, do you know, if other conservatories are doing showcases and doing,1 (20m 9s):And they are, and they are doing it and they are, they are doing it. I, from what I can see, Gina, they're doing it better. I don't know if it's, you know, how good it is. But I do know that like other showcases released their digital showcase because of the pandemic on actors, accessing and town and casting networks, which DePaul did not do. Oh2 (20m 30s):My God.1 (20m 32s):So here's, so that is not okay with me because I went there and I, I do care about it because of this podcast. I also know that these kids having watched them at, you know, 21 year olds, 22 year olds, max, they're busting their ass, just like you. And I we're busting our ass. Like, look, they're busting their ass more than we were, but you and I busted her ass too. And I feel like we didn't get what we needed from the launch process. And what, what will happen is no one will people and people stopped going to theater school. Is that what you want? Or do you want to upgrade like level?1 (21m 13s):Let me run this by. There's a lot of people I hate.2 (21m 24s):Exactly, exactly. Okay. So the thing I wanted to run by you is about storytelling. I signed up for this workshop in my town. We have a little community theater and they sometimes have little workshops and I did improv there one time. And actually by the way, doing improv there, I I'm, I still am terrified of it. And I still don't feel like I'm I do well, but add it. But I reduced my fear somewhat by just aging within, and then we had a performance and my whole family came and yeah, it was, yeah.1 (22m 3s):Why don't we talk about what2 (22m 5s):She like two years ago or three years ago, actually. Yeah. Three or maybe even four years ago now. But anyway, on Sunday I went to, they ha they had a workshop led by a storyteller from the moth and she taught us, you know, how to, so there was only five of us there. One person, only one person absolutely knew when he came in. Exactly what story he wanted to tell. The rest of us were like, I have certain things that are coming to mind. Of course my thing. And I said, I was, I just owned it from the beginning was I've written essays. And I've, you know, written a lot about my life.2 (22m 46s):And yet I somehow feel like I don't have a story to tell. And she said, that's so common. She was telling this great story about somebody. Cause she does corporate stuff too. She was telling the story about somebody in a workshop, in a corporate workshop who just kept saying, I just, I don't have a story. I don't have a story. The day goes on. And he goes, well, I might have something, my family and I fled Vietnam right before this. And she goes, yeah, that's a story. That's a, that's a story you could tell. Anyway, point being, we're putting these stories together and we're going to perform them on Friday.2 (23m 34s):And the I'll say there is something about the process of working on it. That has been, it's not exactly healing, cause this is not a, for me at all. It's something I'm telling a story about when I lived in that apartment on Lil and Libby got me this job at the bakery and while we were, and she was very assiduous about being to work on time. And1 (24m 9s):I remember the, was it the red hen? Oh, we shouldn't say it out loud.2 (24m 12s):I actually, I really don't remember the name. I think it might have been called great Plains. I don't know. Okay. I don't think it's there anymore. And one of the things that was our task was to deal with the mice that inevitably came into the, in the flour sacks and stuff like that in the back. And, but I never she'd said to me, we have to deal with the mice, but I somehow, I hadn't really, really thought that through. And the way we were meant to deal with the mice was hit them over the head with a shovel.1 (24m 47s):Oh. So, so murder of the mice2 (24m 50s):Were into the mice. And so my story is about watching this five foot tall, gorgeous little, just, I mean, she looks like a bird, this girl, woman now, but she was a girl. Then I'm just swinging the shovel over her head and bringing it down. And then just very like with, with zero expression, taking paper towels and picking it up and throw it in the trash, washing her hands and making it back to the register in time for the next customer who came in. And my point of it, of the story is that's. That was one of my most important lessons about the difference between being poor and being broke because I was broke, you know, and always looking for jobs and always working through school.2 (25m 35s):But if it came to smashing a mouse over the head with a shovel, I'm just going to quit that job and go find another job, selling clothes at express. But Libby did not have such luxuries. She had to take the jobs that she could get. And she had to guard them with her life because as even, even with the amount of time she worked, there was a period of time where she would tell me, like, I'm going to bed hungry a lot of nights. And I couldn't help her, you know, because I was broke. I just, I didn't have we bought ramen. I mean, we right. Like six days a week.2 (26m 16s):And so it's about that. And so there's something about, but, but the fact that it's about this epoch in my life yeah. Which I haven't really written that much about, I've written about my childhood and I've written about things that are more contemporary, but you have a lot of experience with storytelling. And I'm curious to know what role that has played in sort of, you know, for one thing, the ability to string together, kind of the, of your life into a cohesive narrative. If, if1 (26m 47s):That's2 (26m 47s):Something that has been helpful or if maybe you have healed in some way, maybe from your one person show,1 (26m 53s):I am Gina. What comes to mind? Like what first came to mind when you were talking about your experience with this storytelling thing? Is it, what, what is the coolest thing to me about storytelling? Like this live lit as we like to call it in Chicago, just because I, storytelling people think it's like, we started calling it live live because people thought it was like, you know, Renaissance fair storytelling. Right. We had like a cheese ball, it's it doesn't matter. It's storytelling. So storytelling, bridges the gap for me. And maybe you have acting and writing. So it is both performance and writing, which I think is brilliant. I think acting is for the birds.1 (27m 35s):Like I just do. I think acting is really hard. I'm not very good at it. Not because I'm not a good person, but that's what I'm saying. I'm not very good at it because I don't like it as much as I like telling a story. That's my story. That also has a performance aspect to it. And it heals the acting thing for me. So you are acting, you are acting, you're not like you in your kitchen, just like when we do a podcast where there's a part of us, that's acting, it's not, you know, it just is what it is. So I think that that is extremely healing. And what, I wonder if it's extremely healing for you, because I feel like in terms of the acting thing, I know that post-graduation from an acting conservatory, you talk about just completely shutting down, completely not shutting down to the acting part of yourself.1 (28m 25s):And I think like through your son and then through this podcast and through writing television and now through storytelling and like your dip into improv, you're, you're healing, the actor part of yourself.2 (28m 37s):That's right. That's right. It1 (28m 38s):Wouldn't surprise me. If you went on to do acting like started acting in plays and stuff. Again,2 (28m 44s):I'm not going to lie. I'm really thinking about it at this point in time. I still feel like it's a bridge too far, just because I have nobody to spell me at home. You know, I can't ask my husband to leave his job so I can go to a play. But at some point, I mean, you know, they're not going to be this age forever. At some point I will be able to do that. And I do have designs on doing that actually.1 (29m 8s):Yeah. And I think, and I think you, I think this storytelling is brilliant because I think the cool thing about storytelling, as well as like you could go to New York city and do them off one night. It's not a, it's not a commitment like the play. In fact, you could do the risk thing that I did in New York. Like the rest of the podcast is live performances in New York. So all this to say that I think storytelling is a fantastic way to heal the part of ourselves that wants to be a performer, but definitely doesn't want, is not ready to take all the trappings and bullshit. That is a professional acting career, which is garbage. Like I got to say, like I just tell my students is to like the part of the business, which is why this is so fraught because it's garbage.1 (29m 55s):That's why you don't like it. But that doesn't mean it's not worth it to you. If you can find a way to make it worth it to you, the competition, the rejection, the then go for it. But what if that is bothersome? And like, you don't want to deal, like what about live lit? Like what about improv? What if there's so many other things? And so like, wouldn't it have been awesome. Gina. If someone had come to us fourth year and been like, Hey, you know what, maybe you get really nervous and that panic attacks when you have to audition. But what about like writing this thing and telling your story on, you know, on a stage somewhere where you get to hold the piece of paper2 (30m 34s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Jeremy Owen. Jeremy is a storyteller and the creator of a storytelling show called George being ridiculous, which is premiering ask Stephanie, I think tomorrow or the next day, check it out. Please enjoy our conversation with Jeremy Owens. Wow. Congratulations. Jeremy Owens. You survive theater school. I want to hear this fabulous story. I missed the beat.1 (31m 11s):Yeah. So Gina, miss the beginning. So I was just basically saying that everyone's rusty and it's really good. We're talking about this because also Gina's performing storytelling this weekend and we were just talking about rusty. It was, everyone was after two years of not doing live lit stuff. And then Jeremy tells me that he did a show and of course we can, you don't have to use names and all that, but like did a show and it went south and by south, he's going to tell us what that means. It really went south. So7 (31m 41s):It really, when up it's like so complicated. Okay. So I was doing a fundraiser first off. I was like, I there's no way, like, who wants to watch me talk on zoom? Like we're doing that all the time. Like who even cares? How can this benefit anyone? But it's a fundraiser. My sister-in-law asked me amazing. I love it. Amen. Let's go. Let's do it. So we're doing it. And I, okay. I was not as cautious. And as careful as I should have been the show, I mean, you done the show, you did a show. I don't know if I can talk about your story, but you like got your tooth knocked out. That's1 (32m 22s):Oh, I believe me. I did. I gave a blow job and my back lower fell out. Yeah.7 (32m 28s):That's a story2 (32m 28s):Story. I7 (32m 31s):Share that story, but That's good. That's the, but that's like kind of the fuel it's like, you don't know what's going to happen. Some things are like, you know, super lovey Dubby. Sometimes somebody tells a story about a blow job and their tooth gets knocked out. It's like not a big deal. Like this is the world we live in. But I mean, if you're doing a corporate fundraiser for someone and I just, Alex, if you're listening, I love you. I just was not clued in. And that's my fault. That's not her fault. It's my fault. I accept responsibility for all those things. This is my disclaimer for my, for my sister-in-law. I accept all the responsibility for that. I just should have been more cautious.7 (33m 11s):Right. So if you're up for doing show or tea, fall out from low jobs, it's not that maybe not the best for like a board. Like those are the stories that people,1 (33m 20s):I7 (33m 20s):Didn't know1 (33m 21s):It is. If I'm on the fucking board, I'd probably not get,7 (33m 24s):I know, same for me. I mean, we went to theater school and I've decided like, as that has passed me by that we're not the same as like Bob down the street who is like wildly offended by anything, you know, sexual or1 (33m 42s):Anything2 (33m 42s):You ever get used to that, by the way, I, I I'm always like, oh really? We have to do this thing where I have to pretend like I'm talking to my grandma. Like you're a full grown adult standing in front of me. What's that?1 (33m 53s):What's your story about, please tell me something amazing. Gross, please.7 (33m 56s):I didn't even get to my story. That's the thing. Okay. So It wasn't even me. I wish it were me. It was like six or seven people. And I think we got like three or four in. And so as they're happening, I'm like, oh wow. That person said, fuck, oh no, this person's talking about porn. Oh, wow. Like things that like, just don't register for me. Right. Because I guess theater school. It's like, none of that registers for me. I'm not offended by anything other than like racist, white assholes.7 (34m 38s):Anything else? It doesn't register me. I don't. I know. I just don't care. I'm not bothered. So2 (34m 45s):Charity though. I mean,1 (34m 47s):It was like, there was it like the nuns of like a sister.7 (34m 50s):Oh, I don't want to say there. I don't want to say their name. I'll tell you1 (34m 54s):What Sater7 (34m 56s):Well, they're like1 (34m 58s):Healthcare, charity. He doesn't want7 (35m 1s):. Yes. I mean, it's a great charity. They do wonderful things. It's awesome. Right. But they weren't ready for1 (35m 12s):Me. So what happened? It just went blank.7 (35m 15s):Like we're just plopping along and I'm like so excited. Cause it's like July 20, 20. I have only been like talking to my dog and my husband. Right. So this is happening and I'm listening to stories. I'm having a great time. This is like amazing loving life porn who cares, you know, whatever. And then all of a sudden it stops working. Like I don't see anything. And I'm like, oh my God, this is my brother-in-law. I was like running the tech. I'm like, oh no,1 (35m 44s):He thought it was a tech thing. Of course.7 (35m 46s):I was like, well, this happened to me. I was taking this class online this weekend and the internet I had and I was like, oh shit. Like in the middle of class, I'm like, great. So now they think I'm an asshole. I just left class early. So I'm just like, this is dead. Right. Then they come, my sister-in-law calls me and tells me what's happening. And they're all furious. And they just, instead of like a conversation or something, or like this is coming or we're so disappointed, it was just like, this is over now. Like just totally dead. The bad part about that is that none of us knew. And there was no communication with me. Other if it hadn't been my sister-in-law, I don't know if I would, I would still be here on my computer.7 (36m 31s):Probably.1 (36m 32s):That's hilarious right there. Like, are you there yet?7 (36m 36s):Hello? Hi. Hi. They just didn't communicate at1 (36m 40s):All.2 (36m 43s):We're like, really? I'm getting irritated about this. Listen to the story is like, I don't know any of the players, but I feel like, I feel like we're the people we're pretending people are pretending that they don't watch porn or that they don't swear or, you know, like, why do I have to do this? Pretending I just love unless there was children in the audience and maybe there were,7 (37m 4s):I don't think so. Like, you know, it's like, I had like friends who1 (37m 8s):I curated it. Where you did you7 (37m 10s):Find, I mean, it's all, basically this entire thing is my fault. But like1 (37m 15s):You, you found everybody.7 (37m 17s):I found everybody, I got everybody. This was like a great in my mind was this is like a greatest hits. This is like, awesome.1 (37m 24s):It's the one time I'm so grateful. I was not asked to do anything. Like7 (37m 29s):It was just so weird. And there's like, I don't know it. Yeah, it was. But again,1 (37m 37s):I do the story for the ages. I love it. All of a sudden, it just goes blank.7 (37m 41s):I'm in the home. This is a story I'm going to, I just went blank. I didn't know what to do. Everything was gone. Just talking about those things. It doesn't, I don't find that if, when I say porn, I'm not like, this is the butthole. Like it wasn't like, you know what?2 (37m 59s):I7 (37m 59s):Watched porn. Right. That's not offensive to me.1 (38m 5s):I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Yeah. Like Gina was saying like we're okay. So that went south. Like if did you feel I'm really concerned? Like, cause I would have probably had to check in somewhere because I would have been like, I curated this motherfucker and now I caused this whole fucking7 (38m 23s):I'm still like T like we have a show coming up in like a week at Steppenwolf. And I had one of the storytellers from that show sent me a is doing the show at Steppenwolf. And I like had a moment because his story is like, because of that. And because I'm like wildly triggered, I was like, Hey, maybe you could do this story about tennis or whatever. And he's like, do you need a PG story? Like what's going on? And then I was like, and then I re-read a story. And I was like, I do not his stories about sex.7 (39m 5s):I do not find this offensive. This is okay. I'm person totally traumatized. And then I had to go back and be like, oh God, remember that thing that happened in 2020, I'm just totally melted from that. And your story is great and everything's fine. I'm just having a moment. I'm going to calm down2 (39m 24s):And see what happens to me though. When I hear w whenever my antenna go up, whenever I hear like, oh, that's offensive to me. That just automatically means you're doing behavior that you feel really ashamed of. And so you want to shame me instead of just own the truth of whatever it is you're doing. This is exactly what happens on the Handmaid's tale. You know, it's all about the Bible, but then they're just like holding people down and raping them. So I just think it's a little bit of a soft sign for you've got trouble. If adults are saying that referencing the fact that there is porn is7 (39m 58s):Troublesome. Yeah.1 (40m 2s):Oh my God. I can just, okay. I would have been so traumatized. So I hear you. And I also think that, like, it's interesting, I've had a similar thing where like, on this podcast, I've mentioned my husband's job. I have mentioned. And so Gina and I always talk about, well, we will not always, but we've had to talk about this of like, what is the, and it's like a bigger thing in our society right. In the world. Like, where do I draw the line of like, can I stand behind this? I guess that's what it is. It's like, can I stand? If I'm called to the carpet, whoever God, the board, whoever, and say, stand behind this show. These words can.1 (40m 43s):And that's when, if I can stand behind it and I am willing to answer for it. And I'm like, I'm all in. If I feel like I'm wishy washy, then I feel like it's going to go south. And then I it's weird. It's a weird thing. It's like when to cut, when to not cut, now, you didn't have the ability I'm fucking lives to do7 (41m 6s):That. What1 (41m 7s):Happens in live television, right? When someone who goes bonkers or has a stroke, God forbid, or it's like, you don't know what to do. So live is a different thing. Like it's different with a podcast. We can cut. We can, but like a live show, whether zoom or on stage, there is this moment. So when I did my solo show, Samantha Irby, Sam Irby opened for me. Right. Ramus. Now wasn't famous then. But it was always a Reverend and a bad-ass right. But data story at my show and my uncle were there about SAC,7 (41m 38s):Right.1 (41m 38s):Eight leakage and fluids. And I was like, oh. And then I thought, oh, I wanted to run on stage and be like, ah, this is too much. But then I thought you invited this person. This is their jam. This7 (41m 54s):We love. Right.1 (41m 58s):What, what, okay, sit, sit, and just deal with it. And if my uncle and my uncle was really offended and like, fuck that. Okay. So, but it's hard to do. I was squirming. So you must've been squirming when you, when your, when your person called you and was like, cause you, you found these people. But I think sometimes we squirm, right? Sometimes we squirm,7 (42m 21s):Oh my God, I was dying. Cause it's like, I don't, I don't want to disappoint any of, either of you, this computer, this desk. And I just want to make everyone so happy all the time. And I don't want anyone upset with me or like, I don't want to cause any problems, nothing. I want you all happy.1 (42m 42s):And sometimes despite our best people, pleasing efforts, like shit goes south. Like that is the story of shit going south. Despite Being a good person, having gone to college, go to it, shit still goes south. So7 (42m 55s):I vote like1 (42m 58s):You're very active, like socially.2 (43m 2s):So let's, let's talk about you and your experiences. Did you go to DePaul?7 (43m 7s):I wish I had gone to DePaul, but I, from listening to this podcast, I get that. I don't know. I went to Roosevelt university for grad school.2 (43m 17s):Cool. Tell us everything. Tell us, like, when you decided you wanted to be an actor and when you decided you wanted to go to theater school, tell us everything.7 (43m 25s):Well, for me, I grew up in Arkansas. So I went to the university of Arkansas and I started out as like a journalism and a political science major. But then they, the department, the journalism department had us take a speech class. Like how does speak in theater class, you know, to get rid of your accent basically. Cause we're all Arkansans. We sound like, you know, we're in God, but the wind or whatever. So we took this class and I had growing up and like my small town, I always loved theater. I'd done community theater and the whole thing. So when I took that class and like, everyone in there is like, you know, so alive and so like interesting and like, like real, I was like, well, this is going to be a problem.7 (44m 17s):So then I, like, I signed up for, you know, the second semester of the class. And then I was like, oh, I'm gonna audition for these one acts. And then so slowly I just migrated into the theater department and completely dropped journalism, political science, all of it. And disappointed my parents ruined their lives, you know, the whole thing. So I didn't really understand, like by the, by the end of my time in undergrad, I was like, I don't really, it's like, you're young. It's like, I don't understand grad school. I don't know. But that seems to be thing that I, there was a grad program that had just started there, like, like near the end of my time there.7 (44m 59s):And I was like, I guess that's what I'm supposed to do. And so everyone told me to go to Chicago. I hadn't ever been to Chicago. I knew nothing about it. Never even visited, but I was like, okay. They're like funny people should go to Chicago. And I'm like, oh, I'm funny. So I guess that's where I'll go.1 (45m 15s):You are funny. So it's good. You went there.7 (45m 17s):Thanks. So, so I auditioned at IRDAs and did that whole thing. And then I got a call back from them and I, it was like weird. Like I thought there was going to be like some like bigger process or something. Like, am I going to, I was like, ready, you know, with like my other, like, do you want 16 bars? Do you need other other monologues? Like, well, what's the deal? And it was just kind of like a done thing. So I was like, Yeah, it's like at the callback, there was like, it was an IRDAs. And it's like, you'd go to the person's hotel room, which now seems really creepy what, with a couple other people.7 (45m 57s):And it just seemed like I liked the person who did the interview and I was like, they're in Chicago. This seems great. I2 (46m 7s):Like to act in a hotel room. I've never7 (46m 9s):Done. Like, the audition was in, like, I don't even know where it was like the ballroom. It was like, there was like a black box sort of like made up situation. So you audition and then like the next day or a few hours later, you get like a sheet with a little list of the schools that want to like talk to you or whatever. And we have been like through the ringer with my undergrad teacher and she's like, okay, you need to have, like, you had like your folder with your monologues. And like, if someone wanted a song, like your whole thing, it's like bootcamp and you're ready. So I'm like prepared for somebody to ask me to do anything. And I don't know, I got called back to like a lot of places, which I was like, oh my God, none of them asked me for anything.7 (46m 54s):Which maybe looking back, maybe that was like, not a great situation. I don't know what that means.2 (46m 60s):They were just the, and the call back. They were just meeting you. Right. They were just wanting to know if you were like,7 (47m 4s):Yeah, I guess1 (47m 6s):You're acting probably wow. Like really? They probably would have if they were on the fence, but that probably wasn't that they probably wanted to do what, you know, they, they, a chemistry breed or whatever the fuck they call it. Right.7 (47m 18s):Yeah. I guess. But this meaning with the person at Roosevelt, it's like, she was nice. It was great. It felt good. So I was like, all right, maybe that's where I'm going. And I knew I wanted to get Chicago. So like, that was, that was the deal.2 (47m 36s):It's an undergrad. You were not thinking this at all. I'm guessing you don't come from a performing family or you, you weren't doing this in high school.7 (47m 44s):Oh my God. Well, there was like the junior play or whatever that like pays for the prom, you know, like that kind of a situation. But otherwise, like I did community theater and I'm from a town of like 10,000 people. So there wasn't like really a community theater. I did Annie and Mike, I don't know, 10th grade or something.1 (48m 3s):Amazing.7 (48m 4s):Really upset. I couldn't be Annie. I was like a Senator. And like the apple salesman. I was like that guy I'm like running around doing whatever anybody wanted me to do.1 (48m 20s):Funny. That's why he could do a lot funny.2 (48m 23s):Yeah. Interchangeable. Okay. So day one, you're at Roosevelt. Is this the education that you thought you were going to get7 (48m 32s):Funny? You should ask. So this, when I went, which was, this was 2000 yes. 2000. So it was their first year of their MFA program.1 (48m 44s):Oh shit.7 (48m 46s):Oh shit is right. They accepted 30 people take that in verse1 (48m 54s):307 (48m 55s):MFA. Oh yeah.1 (48m 57s):It's too many people that just like five.7 (49m 0s):Thank you. I think that if I'm being kind, I think they accepted a huge amount of people thinking that, you know, with everything going on that like maybe 10, which is still too many would accept. So there were 30 of us. So we're there on the first day. And I'm just like, this seems , I don't know anything about what this experience is supposed to be, but 30 people that's like, that's like an entire MFA program, you know, that's like three years of people or more So immediately.7 (49m 44s):I was just like,1 (49m 45s):Hmm,7 (49m 47s):This doesn't seem right. But you know, I was like 24. So I'm like so happy to be there. I'm living in my friend's base. My friend's mom's basement until I find an apartment just like, you know, desperate twenties times. So immediately. I was like, I, this is hi. All right.1 (50m 11s):I think I should get off this rollercoaster right now, but it's already going, right?7 (50m 16s):Yeah, totally. I just like was on. And because I didn't have like necessarily the support of my parents where this entire thing, I was like, fight or flight. Like I will do this. If I have to hang on to the side of the building and sleep like that, or like, whatever it is, I'm gonna do this. So I did it.2 (50m 49s):And is it a typical curriculum, voice and speech and movement and all that stuff?7 (50m 54s):Yeah. I was sort of surprised by all of it. The program that I did in undergrad, I felt, I don't know. I guess everyone in undergrad, if you're doing theater stuff there, you think that like, what you're doing is like enough and great. And that's how everything's going to go. So to spend like three hours a day in a movement class, suddenly when you're like, God damn it, let me do a monologue or a scene or sing a song. Like let me work. You know, I understand that that is also work and it's fundamental, but it was really shocking to me.1 (51m 37s):You know, what's interesting is like, and you're not the first person that I've, I felt this, that we've had on the show is like, what I would eat. Like you should have maybe gone right to second city and just done that call that five-year conservatives And gotten the fuck out, but it's not accredited. It's not like a real university that would probably make your parents even more like unhappy. And so, but like you needed like a professional program, like there's conservatory training for actors and then there's professional programs. And I wish I had done, so. Okay. But you're in this. How long was the Roosevelt MFA program?7 (52m 15s):Three years. Oh,1 (52m 16s):Fuck. Right.2 (52m 18s):And was it the thing where you can't perform the first year, but then you do and you're in the casting pool with VFS.7 (52m 26s):Yeah, I, we couldn't perform in the first year though, at the end of the first semester, they opened up an audition to be an intern at Chicago Shakespeare, which was like super exciting. So I auditioned and then I was doing the second semester, I got to be an intern and be on stage and do king Lear, Chicago, Shakespeare. I mean, I was like, you know, a dude, a homeless person running around. Oh, we got it. Yeah. So then I was like, oh no, this is great. I'm like with like these amazing people that I don't know who they are yet, but I will.7 (53m 9s):And there, those people are amazing2 (53m 12s):In that7 (53m 13s):Greg VIN CLER.1 (53m 15s):Oh yeah. was Barbara Gaines directing7 (53m 18s):Barbara Gaines director.1 (53m 20s):Yeah. She's amazing. She's she's famous for, for me, for my one audition I had there, she yawned during my whole model to be fair, but to be fair, it was really boring. Like, it was really boring. She was basically doing what I wish I could have done. It was boring. My shit was boring. She was like this. Can't see. But yeah, she was rude, but apropos I sucked anyway. Okay. So you were, you got to work at shakes and so you were like, okay, but did you make friends? What was the vibe like? BFA was the BFA program established at that time?7 (54m 2s):I think so. Oh, and that part. Okay. Like whatever I'll say about Roosevelt, which I don't have, I don't know necessarily great things to say about the program. It doesn't even exist anymore, PS, by the way. But the BFA program, the program for undergrads, I thought that was like, excellent. Like, I was like happy for those kids. Like that seemed like good. And they were having a good time, but for us it was just, I don't know. It just felt kind of sad and different.2 (54m 26s):So your parents were psyched about the idea of you being a journalist. That's what they thought you were going to.7 (54m 32s):I think the imaginary plan was that I would, or what I sold them at the time was I'm gonna get this journalism degree and then I'm gonna go to law school.1 (54m 43s):Oh,2 (54m 45s):Right. That's everybody's, catch-all hilarious.7 (54m 48s):So that's what I'm going to do. But then I was like, but these plays, these people, it's really the people that are purchased more fun.2 (54m 57s):I actually got dressed so many people in for exactly that reason. It's just something that's like tribal feeling that you don't know that you don't have it until you find it. And then you go, oh my God.7 (55m 8s):Yeah. It was really, it was really all encompassing. I was like, well, I can't not be with these people.2 (55m 15s):What kind of shows did you do there at Roosevelt?7 (55m 18s):I all right. So, so there was that first year experience. And then I don't know. I let's see, I did my last year.1 (55m 30s):Yeah. It just sticks out in your brain7 (55m 33s):Threepenny opera. And then there was this weird Asian adoptation of the rope by whatever old Greek guy,2 (55m 47s):Asian adaptation.7 (55m 48s):So here's one of the weird things about the program. So there were a couple of classes that made zero sense that we were taking as actors. One was, we all had to take a stage management management course. I don't know. Did you guys have to know1 (56m 5s):I7 (56m 5s):Was like1 (56m 5s):Crew, but I don't even know. No.7 (56m 8s):Well, yeah, like working on a cruise, like that's normal, but in an entire semester demo devoted to stage management just seems kind of rude.2 (56m 18s):It sounds like they needed stage managers for their shows1 (56m 22s):Teachers. Yeah.7 (56m 25s):And then there is a professor there who white lady who loved Asian theater. And so, yeah. Pause for that1 (56m 37s):PF chains of, she was trying to be the PF Chang's PF J7 (56m 44s):God lover. I mean, yes. I'm interested in Asian theater too, but everyone was required as part of the MFA program to take an Asian theater class. So, which is interesting. I'm not knocking like any of that, but the PA I don't know the possibility of me being in an Asian.2 (57m 7s):Yeah. Like what's the really,1 (57m 11s):It just sounds like she had a thing for her thing was Asian theater and she wanted everyone else's thing.7 (57m 16s):Total your thing. She had studied in, I don't know, Japan, I think, and had done this whole program and it was like her, she may even have like a PhD on it. I don't really know, but that was her thing and good for her. Awesome.1 (57m 31s):Why are you teaching? But it's7 (57m 33s):Not practical. Yeah. It just seems like weird. So the play I did, I did the, the rope, which is like a Greek play. Never2 (57m 42s):Heard of it.1 (57m 43s):I wish you had done the rain anyway.7 (57m 48s):So she translated the play into a Kyogen style thing, which is a very specific Asian theater style play. Not only that, not only that, but like, I have always been openly unapologetically sort of who I am, which means, hello, I'm a homosexual and it's clear and I'm not like afraid of that as an actor or a person. So I played the, yeah, get ready. I played the, I don't want to call it like the evil sister, but I played like the villain in the play, which was like an older, which type woman in the play.7 (58m 40s):And that was supposed to be hilarious.1 (58m 48s):That's really where we're headed in the arts. I'm also saying the arts in the logs shit went down. Not that7 (58m 56s):Some weird shipments out. Yeah. So it's like thinking about that now you would like wants to like light all of Chicago on fire. Right? Correct. But at the time, this I guess was like, cool, cool. And inventive to make the one gay guy that you were Sure was gay play a woman Asian drag. Oh my gosh. The whole thing is like Asian themed rides. and the whole thing I don't, I can't say for sure, but I don't think1 (59m 39s):So. What the fuck?7 (59m 42s):So just a bunch of white people running around and kimonos speaking in a very like, you know, meter to style Asian thing. And I'm a woman also.2 (59m 53s):I wish we had a video. I really want to watch this play. I mean, just like for a snippet, because you know, when you think of yourself and how seriously you took a role when you were young and you and you, and you just in your mind's eye, even if there's no video and you just imagine, like, what does this actually look like? And that's always looks funny, no matter what or sad. If it's a comedy, it looks sad. And if it's True. So that was one. Did you have any roles that you liked?7 (1h 0m 29s):I mean, kind of, well, there was like a, a directing project that one of my friends did. It was like a Steve Martin one act. And I was like, yeah, right. Like it was like a legit play that was like funny and good. And I had like the lead and I was like, it was like us, like a straight man that I was playing. And I like felt excited because it felt like I was like reaching. I'm not reaching, but you know what I mean? You're like, oh, this is a play. I'm like, yeah. I was like, do a thing. And I like am working for this goal to do. And I felt like I was successful in it and it felt good.7 (1h 1m 9s):But like, that was probably the one, even in my thesis role, which was like, I was like a random chorus person in Threepenny opera, literally it's my third year. I'm like, Hmm. I have to write 30 pages now on yeah. That's, it's like that.1 (1h 1m 27s):The thing like that, I just, and maybe you guys could chime in. And in terms of the curriculum, there doesn't seem to be an actual curriculum for these programs. Like now that I'm teaching, I'm like, wait, what, what is the7 (1h 1m 42s):Tactical?1 (1h 1m 43s):And what is the piece of paper that you can point to, to say, this is the mission of these three years for these MFA actors. There is no plan. What is the plan? That's what I feel about a lot of this is, and it's still to this day in, in conservatories, what is the fucking plan? Because there doesn't seem to be one and there's not a plan. We shouldn't be charging dollars to these people. I just, I, it should be, then it should be camp, a freak out where we go when we, I don't know. Anyway. So2 (1h 2m 15s):I mean, honestly, like it's, it needs to be treated a little bit more like a school and pass fail, right?7 (1h 2m 23s):Yeah. Like the goal it's like, if you're a journalist, like, can you do these things? Can you write a bituaries? Can you write a news story? Can you do the, you know what I mean? So it's like, when I leave this place, am I going to be able to get a job? And I know that like, everyone's like, theater's like, oh gosh, you're never going to work or whatever, but that, it's just not true. It's like, everything is the same. There are basic skills. Do you have them,1 (1h 2m 50s):There are milestones to meet along the way. And if you, I mean, anyway, I it's just, the more we interview folks, the more I'm like, oh, this whole higher ed situation, fine arts needs a whole overhaul. I don't know what it's going to take, but we'll probably be extinct on the planet before it happened. So I just feel like maybe that's the way it's going to go and okay. But like, okay, so you graduate, you then are like, okay, I have this MFA. Then what happens to you7 (1h 3m 21s):By the end of the program? I was really like, I don't know. I feel like it kind of, it kind of broke me because things like that were happening, which in a way is like, I mean, at the time we didn't have the language for like, you know, playing an Asian woman in a play, like it's offensive. And it's like, not furthering me. It's racist. It's not furthering me as an actor. I'm not going to leave here and like run around and Komodo and place for the rest of my life. It just kind of broke me. And a lot of the, I would say some of the teachers, the whole situation just didn't make me feel good.7 (1h 4m 4s):So at the end, I was like, you know what, maybe? Hm. I don't know. I need, I needed a break from that whole world. I mean, I did audition for awhile, but the shortest while1 (1h 4m 21s):How short,7 (1h 4m 26s):Maybe it was a couple years1 (1h 4m 28s):Because we have Gina's trajectory and mine, mine too. Like I stopped after I stopped after three.7 (1h 4m 35s):Yeah. I was probably three years. Like slowly, just petered out. I mean, I got to the point where I'm like going. So I went on a few theater auditions in the beginning and then I had an agent and I would go on these, like on camera calls. And I would just be like, oh my God, I'm in this giant room with a hundred people that are dressed and look just like me. This is the most pressing thing. Like, I just was like, I can't, this isn't, this doesn't feel good either.2 (1h 5m 6s):I want to hear how eventually, how we get to storytelling. But before we do, I just, I didn't want to leave the whole Roosevelt thing without, I don't think I've really asked anybody this before, but you're not the first person who basically says to us, like, I'm gay. They didn't know what to do with me in theater school. Right.7 (1h 5m 30s):So2 (1h 5m 32s):I don't know if this is a question or a comment or what, or like just a prompt for discussion, but what is the barrier there? I mean, it seems like what you're saying about this role that you got cast, it's like, you're gay. So you'd like to wear drag. Is that what the thinking was?7 (1h 5m 47s):I don't know. For me, it's two things. It's like, there's the gay thing for sure. But also I'm funny. So if you're in a serious theater program, please understand I'm doing some heavy air quotes because every theater program thinks they're a serious theater program. They really do not know what to do with people who are fitting into the definition of serious. And so I think yes, there is like me, the stereotypical gay person or whatever, if I am so there's that person, but that's usually a funny person.7 (1h 6m 28s):And so then they don't like it totally. This is serious. We're doing real serious work here. How can this work?1 (1h 6m 38s):It makes that, that makes me, it makes sense. And it also makes me so angry, just Raging, also like fucking pick different motherfucking material. You've that fits your mother fucking class. You dumb fucks. That is what we're supposed to be doing is picking material that highlight our students and help them grow in a way and not the pick different place.7 (1h 7m 3s):Well, that's really where in that and the whole situation, I feel like that's, that's what sort of killed me is that there wasn't a place for me. No one cared to create one and you are, I already felt like I don't fit here. I don't belong. And so it's just like that slowly, just really like sinks in. So you've got that going on. You've got your there with 30 actors and it was kind of, honestly, it was sort of like easy to just like hide, you know, unless I'm being called to play the Asian lady on the play. So it's just like a kind of just was like, eh,1 (1h 7m 43s):Yeah, you gave up. But they gave up on at first.7 (1h 7m 48s):It is honestly,1 (1h 7m 50s):We give up when people give up on us first, especially as young people.2 (1h 7m 53s):That's true. That's true. So you're in audition rooms after school. You're, you're feeling like this is depressing. There's 5,000 mess and we all look the same. How, how did, how did you evolve from that to what you're currently doing, which I'm going to go on a limb and say is fulfilling to you artistically fulfilling to you what you're doing?7 (1h 8m 13s):I would say yes. Okay. How did that happen? I mean, after, you know, just deciding I'm not going to go on these calls anymore. I just, like, I was like, okay, then I'll, I'm working in a restaurant. So that's what I'm, I'm gonna work in. I work in restaurants now. That's what I do. And I did that for a while. And then I was just like, okay, but wow, this can't be it. Like, even if you, as an actor, like whatever level you achieve as an actor, I think there's always that part of you. Who's like, yeah, but like, can I talk somewhere?7 (1h 8m 54s):And people just like to listen to me or just let me tell, you know, just get really enthusiastic with storytelling at a party. Or like, whatever. I, I didn't know about the moth or a storytelling or any of that stuff. I really was just like this theater experience, grad school was so bad for me. And I'm too afraid to go to second city to do improv because I had sat through, you know, the first year of friends doing that. And I was like, well, I'm not doing this terrifying. So I thought, Hey, what if I get some actors together?7 (1h 9m 37s):And we will write monologues, which is how I thought of it at the beginning, it'll be like loosely based on a theme and we'll do a monologue show. I think I had just seen Nora Ephron's play love loss and what I wore. And so there's all these women on stage telling this like, story. And I was like, oh my God, I'm not a playwright. I can never like, make this happen necessarily. But like, if there are people on a stage and then they're just like one by one, like telling a story based on a theme, like, oh my gosh, this is revolutionary. I've just invented this whole new thing. So that is sort of where I started.1 (1h 10m 14s):When was that? I

Intro: David Schwimmer, Zazie Beetz, Grace Gummer, and Joe Sikora teach us about sexual harassment, Let Me Run This By You: I think a ghost is peeing in my basement. Fulling mills, alcoholics, Johnny Depp, Britney Spears.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice.1 (11s):We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it.2 (15s):20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (21s):We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?2 (39s):Hello? Hello. Hello survivors. This is Gina reporting to you on a beautiful spring day. I hope it is a beautiful spring day wherever you are, or if it's not, I hope it will be very soon. We are guests lists in this episode today, as I reported to a couple of weeks ago should happens. We had recorded a great episode with a lovely person and just their audio didn't record at all. You know, just one of those things like internet gremlins, bloody body boss. So we're going to re up with him at some point, but we do have coming down the pike, a few really great episodes, including Glen Davis, the director of Steppenwolf theater company and Trammel Tillman, the actor who plays Mr.2 (1m 28s):Mel chick and severance. And if you listen to this podcast, do you know how much I love severance? I'm really, really excited about that one also Sumia Taka Shima. So we've got some really fantastic interviews lined up. I hope you will be tuning in and the upcoming weeks. And just another note to say, thank you so much for your ongoing support and listenership. We really love doing this podcast. Love making it for you. So we love that you enjoy listening to it. And if you haven't already, you should check out our website, undeniable writers.com and our social media.2 (2m 14s):We're on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Do you think we should get off of Facebook? Well, do you think we should get on Facebook? Do you think we should get off Twitter? See, I really want to make the great break. I want to get away from social media, but I feel I'm trapped now. You know, because professionally and personally, it's a great way to connect with a lot of people that I otherwise wouldn't be able to connect with, but it's, it's just this equal parts, terrible and wonderful creation, and we're all completely addicted to it. So, you know, who knows what's who knows how this is gonna work out for us?2 (2m 55s):Honestly, it could go either way. We could figure out a way to manage this problem and get on top of it and figure out a way to have enjoyment, but not addiction to social media. Or we could all find ourselves waking up in the middle of a Handmaid's tale. I mean, we are kind of headed that way. It's really looking like people want us to live in Gilliad. And for whatever reason, I just don't feel like people who don't want to live in Gilliad are good at making it so that we don't live in Gilead, myself included. What am I doing? I'm donating money.2 (3m 36s):I mean, fat, lot of good. That really does so, wow. This is taking a bad turn. I don't mean for it to do that. I really want to express my love and appreciation for you all and my excitement about our upcoming episodes and my wish that you connect with us on social media, that's killing us all. And I hope you enjoy today's episode, which we are entitling. I'm going to have to accept that. I will always look like Dora the Explorer at some point, please enjoy Hey, sexual harassment training.2 (4m 41s):So in order for my son to get his work permit, you know, through, you have to go through this training and it said it would take an hour. And I was thinking like, is that really gonna take an hour? It's like one full hour because it's one of these, did you ever have to do it? Yeah. You can't go to the next slide until1 (5m 2s):No, no. They make sure your ass is there for an hour. Gina.2 (5m 6s):That's right. And you know, I do have to say it is something I really miss about California. People complain about the bureaucracy and the, you know, and in this training, you know, it's infantilizing in certain ways. But like, if you have to make things accessible to all people and it's like, if it's infantilizing to you or you already know it, consider yourself lucky. Well also about the people that don't already know, it like1 (5m 37s):Gina, the, the majority of our world, especially those who harass people are in like infants who need hand-holding. So we need to infantilize them because they're fucking infants and they need this shit from the ground. Like, dude, I love it. Like, I love the fact that they won't, that they won't like fast-forward until you wash them. Because you know, these motherfuckers, the people who really need to watch it would fast forward through the whole thing and think they don't need it.2 (6m 9s):Yeah. I mean, maybe we actually need to be infantilizing. I am often accused of, You know, expecting too much from people, you know, like I just, the number of times somebody says to me, yeah. But I just don't think most people will understand that or, you know, think about it that way. Anyway, I completed it. And it was so the one you saw did it have like David Schwimmer and Zazie Beetz and Gracie Gummer I guess that was so sweet. And Joseph Cora,1 (6m 48s):Cora Joseph. I actually watched it with miles when miles, my husband had to do it for his new job. And I was like, I know all the And they must pay so much. I mean, like I either they're doing it for free or,2 (7m 4s):Oh, I assume they were doing it for free. I assumed it was like, we're doing this well. Cause it was through rain, rain made the videos. So I would assume that1 (7m 13s):People2 (7m 14s):Aren't asking rain to pay them1 (7m 16s):Like a million dollar2 (7m 18s):Scale or whatever.1 (7m 21s):No, my fee is actually 1.3 million for this sexual harassment for2 (7m 27s):Video, the second video1 (7m 28s):And tire rape video. Yeah. You're going to pay me anyway.2 (7m 33s):Hey, how are you? I love your crushed blue velvet.1 (7m 37s):Thank you. I, yeah, my, my standard thing now is like, I literally have like 10 meetings a day, which is hilarious. So a lot of it is my students getting ready to launch. So a lot of it is really motivated and highly stressed, 22 year olds that are like, ha who? And I love it. And I love meeting with them and they also are, you know, just exactly where we were the same thing of like, and in fact, a lot of them, yeah. They're ahead of where we were, because at least they know there's a fucking problem,2 (8m 18s):Right? Yeah. There, they don't necessarily have their head all the way up inside of the crevice of their ass. Like I did. Exactly. Well. That's cool. Yeah.1 (8m 29s):So I'm doing that. And like, I don't know. There was something I thought if you, I feel like I haven't talked to you in so long.2 (8m 36s):I agree. Well, I think it's because you have so many meetings. You're busy all day long. Thank goodness you have your new fancy office. How's it working?1 (8m 44s):I do. It's working great. We haven't, I'm in the focus room now because we don't have our rug yet. And our rug will mask all the sound. And also, yeah, I didn't to be in a booth. So we have these tall booths that are, are for doing this kind of thing, but the seat I'm old and the chair is not that comfortable. So I'm in the focus from, there's also a pumping room Moms. I don't go in that room, but there's a refrigerator in there. Like you can put your breast milk.2 (9m 14s):A cool,1 (9m 14s):Hilarious.2 (9m 16s):I pumped in so many disgusting places pumped at Yankee stadium. Yes. Like in the women's bathroom, take me out to the ball game or something like that. I've pumped in many bathrooms. I've pumped in while driving I've driving. Yes. It's, it's hard to be a woman. Did I tell you about Jesse Klein's book?1 (9m 45s):No.2 (9m 46s):Wait, Jesse Klein is a writer and she, she wrote her second book. First one was called. You'll grow out of it. And the second one, this one is called, I'll see myself out. She was the sh writer for inside Amy Schumer. She's now the show runner for, I love that for you, which I want to watch.1 (10m 5s):Yeah. I did not read the books and you love the first one, right? Or2 (10m 9s):I love the first one and I love the second one. The second one. She just, I mean, the thing about, cause she, she just really states a very, very, very true truth, which is that what certain women who are mothers just don't see a lot of like their experience of motherhood reflected in, in, Out there. Right. When I was pregnant with my first child, I read a book called the girlfriend's guide to having a baby. I picked this, it talked about infantilizing and finalizing only named book title, you know, from the other options because the other ones seemed, if you can believe even cornea or even worse in my lasting impression.2 (11m 1s):I mean, there was not that it was all terrible. I read that and I read a Jenny McCarthy book.1 (11m 5s):I was going to say, did you read the Jenny? That was your option.2 (11m 9s):That was my options. And my lasting impression of the girlfriend's guide book was like, it was a lot about how you were going to lose the weight after the baby. And her thing was like, this was her advice at the beginning of the week, make an enormous vegetable stew. And every time you're hungry, grab yourself a cup of this tasteless flavorless calorie list.1 (11m 40s):Oh my2 (11m 41s):God. And my ass, I did try to do it. I tried for like, cause I came home and I was like, oh, I still am six months pregnant. It looks like. So I, at that time, in my life, it was very concerned about getting back to my pre-baby weight, which never happens for most of us. And, and I basically, while I was nursing, I basically starved myself on this vegetable route. And all of this is to say, Jesse Klein says the unsayable. She speaks the taboos of like, listen, sometimes you regret being a mom. There are days where you're like, it wasn't worth it the other days where you say it was, but you're not allowed to ever feel like what gets reflected back to us as like, you know, you're so lucky.2 (12m 29s):It's a sh it's a miracle you should just forever be grateful for.1 (12m 34s):Well, the other thing that I'm noticing is, and you know, it's apropos mother's day just happened. Right? So I'm also noticing that there are, there's another school of people that are saying that our childless women are childless people, but mostly childless women that I know that are like, well, they did it to themselves. So like, I don't feel bad for them. And I don't have that feeling. I don't have kids, but I, I definitely feel like it is a choice for most people to have a kid. And I mean, if our government has its way, it will be a choice. Right. It'll be just your forest, but most people have a choice. And so, but just because you make a choice, this is my other thing.1 (13m 15s):And it's the same with like, people that, you know, talk about like people choosing to do drugs and choosing just because someone makes a choice does not mean that they are, they, they should deserve to suffer in some horrible way. If they're not happy with the choice or they've made a choice that on some days they feel like it wasn't the right choice. So I feel like to say like, oh, F mothers breeders and all that stuff. That is also for me not okay, because what it is saying is that right? Like, because you made this choice at a given point in your life, you now are like deserve any bad thing that comes from that choice.1 (13m 54s):And I don't believe, I feel three the best they can every day, whether it's a kid or whatever to get through. And so I think that's the backlash of, you know, the opposite of, of the childless movement, which is like people who choose to have children are somehow also for, I don't know.2 (14m 14s):Yeah. Well, we're all assholes. This is the point1 (14m 18s):Your essay was asshole. Just like us. So2 (14m 21s):That's like us, they are us. We are the assholes, all, every single one of us. So yeah. I, I mean, I totally understand. I see all sides of that argument. I see. I can understand why women who don't have want to have children feel, I understand why they are. They feel angry because they are made to feel like there's something wrong with them by multiple people, including therapists. And as you experienced seemingly benign comments that people think just being, I mean, do you get, do you get a lot of flack about not having kids? No.1 (14m 56s):I think I would, if my parents were alive, so I'm kind of glad they're dead on that way. And then also, because, because it would, my mom, well, the thing is that my mom, when I was taking care of her, the funny story is that she was pressuring me to have kids with miles and we had just gotten married and she was dying and it was not the right time clearly. And then towards the end, after when she was really dying, dying, and I was taking care of her and I was like, I would like boss her around because she wouldn't do what I said. I was like, mom, you cannot do this. You can not do that. Like I was so worried about her that I became a giant pain in the ass and she was like, maybe it's better. You don't have kids2 (15m 51s):For the last two years since we got actually, before we got Wallace, the dog, we had Millie the rabbit.1 (15m 59s):I2 (16m 1s):Was a sad APOC with Millie of the rabbit. My son wanted a rabbit. I said, no, my husband bought it when I was out of town. And I knew, yeah, I know I went out of town.1 (16m 16s):Well, it didn't, you do get a dog in Oakland when, when Aaron was out of town and you,2 (16m 21s):He wasn't out of town. I was just like on a walk with my friend that I came home with a dog. Yes.1 (16m 25s):And he said, and he said, something happened. And he said, did you meet bill Cosby? Yeah.2 (16m 29s):And she thought, I said, you have to come home because there's somebody I want you to meet. And all he could imagine it was that it was bill cost. Right? Yeah. Got it. Yeah. He would have been worried. So yeah. So when my son had Millie the rabbit, you know, he was learning what it means to take care of another creature. And he wasn't always that excited to take care of her. And one of the things that he did was let her free roam around certain places, which was against the rules. And one of the places that she free roamed was in our basement, which meant that she peed and pooped.2 (17m 9s):And we're, you know, years later we're still finding a little thing. Anyway, this meant that when we got Wallace, the dog and he went into the basement, he immediately peed off1 (17m 20s):All the things.2 (17m 21s):Correct. And so we stopped letting him go into the basement. I bought a case of this urine foam deodorizer shit. Cause we had rugs down there. That's in work. We threw the rugs away. We got carpet tiles. The idea like if it happens in one place we can clean or, or get rid of this one tile when I have to replace a whole rug. And that dog has not to, my knowledge has not been in the basement for at least a year. And it still smells like pee. We have steam cleaned and, and foam till the cows come up. When I tell you this is something I have dealt with every single day, since we've basically, since we've lived here, I it's no exaggeration.2 (18m 9s):And So what it is is my obsession. My obsessionality focuses on one of these things. All my energy gets put into this. When we lived in New York, it was the rats and the mice. Now it's the P So I, I approached this, like I am going to dominate the S P smell. Then my life is going to be complete. And I finally did it. I S I said, there's no more cleaning these carpet tiles. We've got to take them all up, which was very difficult to do. And we took them all up. I was so proud because I had to really face it, you know, getting down on my hands and knees.2 (18m 51s):I had to really contend with that. Smelling P is like the worst thing for me. I was so proud of myself, my two sons and I, we did all of the work. It didn't smell like pee last night for the very first time the whole family hung out in the basement because we have fun stuff to do down there. We've got a ping pong table and gymnastics equipment and workout stuff. And my daughter, and has been worked down there and I'm like, I'm going to join them. It doesn't suck to be in the basement anymore. We're having a great time. I felt like I was the, one of those prescription commercials. The montage1 (19m 27s):With the medicines like called like rejuvenate X or like Family.2 (19m 33s):I'm throwing my head back and laughing. And we're just enjoying this, having a grand old time. And I decided I'm going to move the laundry along. Cause our laundry is down there. And I pick up this thing of clean wash and stuff. I start folding. I pick up one, I smell pee.1 (19m 55s):Oh my God. Oh my God.2 (19m 57s):And I looked down and the laundry basket that it was put in was a cloth basket all around the bottom. I see it like a four inch ring of yellow around the bottom of my laundry basket. The basket. Well, here are my options for what happened. A Wallace knows how to open the door and goes downstairs to pee. When nobody's looking, it seems unlikely B he somehow gets down there when somebody forgets to close the door. But even then it seems unlikely. Cause I wouldn't. I would know if that happened with any frequency.2 (20m 40s):See, There's a ghost peeing in my Apigee1 (20m 47s):Ghost.2 (20m 48s):Migos1 (20m 49s):Unlikely,2 (20m 51s):Unlikely.1 (20m 54s):I2 (20m 54s):S I F I felt like I was going crazy. I felt last night with this issue, I thought I'll never be free from this.1 (21m 4s):You're like Plagued with the P.2 (21m 7s):And you know, the street that we live on is called fulling mill and a fulling mill is refers to a place where in the process of creating Textiles, they did something with the sh the wool and the S and it had to be cleaned with urine1 (21m 29s):Shuts your mouth this way.2 (21m 32s):Yes. Ma'am yes. Ma'am this entire area. A little clock that I live1 (21m 37s):On2 (21m 39s):Was, is named for what it was. And this one, this town was founded in the 17 hundreds, which was the place down by the water where they cleaned, wash the wool with urine, for whatever reason. Yeah. I mean, could it be that we are just dealing with 300 years Of1 (21m 60s):P well,2 (22m 1s):Hasn't seen, right.1 (22m 2s):I know I it's one of your kids pig and the baskets.2 (22m 6s):I mean, well, in this particular basket, it was around the outside of it.1 (22m 11s):No. So Sue Wallace picked up the leg. We put, what was her2 (22m 17s):Around it? Not just like in one spot,1 (22m 20s):It doesn't make any sense. So we have no answers still.2 (22m 24s):I have no answers. I threw away the laundry basket and it doesn't smell like pee down there any more. But I just, I just realized like, okay, well, this is where it's about my obsession and my intolerance, right? When we lived in New York, I was so traumatized by the rats and the mice. And I just became so deeply intolerant. And that's how it works with fears, as you know, oh,1 (22m 49s):The2 (22m 50s):More you back away from it, the worse it is. Right.1 (22m 53s):And also it's, you're like super, what was it? It was, it's not entirely, it's not intolerant. It's also unreasonable. We become totally on it is an intolerant, but it's like, we become unreasonable about our willingness not to let go of the thing. Like, I, I get it. I've been there when I am. I've been there. But like, what I'm really anointed is is that you're not telling me the answer to what happened. We don't know2 (23m 20s):Girl. I do not know. I don't know.1 (23m 24s):No.2 (23m 25s):No.1 (23m 26s):Okay. So it hasn't flooded. You've never had, so we just don't know how and no other, where there any other laundry baskets in the basement that have this problem?2 (23m 36s):No. Okay. Here's what all allow for allow for This possible, even though the dog never pees inside the house, to my knowledge, you know, I mean, he's two years old now. He really, to my knowledge, hasn't done it in at least a year. Maybe at some point, one of this basket was in my daughter's room. He sometimes sleeps in there, but, but even then I felt like I would have smelled it when I walked in the room,1 (24m 3s):I feel like he would have done it. Why around the basket, this doesn't make any sense.2 (24m 7s):It makes no sense. It makes no sense. I'm choosing to think about it. Like, yeah, there's, there's, there's the logistical practical thing of like, figuring out what happened and try not to let it happen again. But then there's the other, perhaps more important thing, which is, well, it's the, if you're going to pick this to be your thing, you know, you're always going to be vexed by it. That's what I'm, that's what I, it just didn't occur to me really until last night. Like, I'm, there's a part of this that I am doing to myself. Yes. It's P whatever, like we clean it and we move on. Right.1 (24m 42s):So, you know, it is, it is sort of, to me what the P represents in terms of, for me, it's a very, I have a dog that is a very, very bad dog. And she, what is it? What does it mean? If I have a very bad dog? What does it mean that if my dog is not civilized and behaved or doesn't give a shit about following rules, or it means that I have done something wrong and I cannot get clean. Like, it just it's, it cannot, I cannot get clean. Like that is the feeling is I can not, I can never do it. Right. I can never have a perfect dog.1 (25m 23s):And why, why other people seem to, I can't get my dog to be perfect. And it is, it becomes an obsession obsession. So like, my dog got put in timeout, you know, a daycare and like, I could not get over it. I was like, why? I was like, wait, what does this mean? Like I had a whole thing and she has not been back to daycare sentence because I'm like, I cannot risk her going. And then, then she got kennel cough, which is the real reason. And it's expensive as hell. But underneath there is this thing of like, I do not want to deal with my dog getting a bad report every time that she did something rotten and went to time out, time out, which is like five minutes alone with a person it's not even a thing, but like, it is a thing to me.1 (26m 6s):So I get it. And I also do think that it's, I have to I'm of two minds, right? Cause like I'm of the mystery, true crime mind, like I'm trying to figure out. And the, the, and the other mind is the psychological realism. Mine. That's like, no, this is about you and your need to want to be perfect, you know, and want to have a perfect basement where you can have the perfect pharmaceutical commercial.2 (26m 31s):Yes. And you know what also just drives me nuts about myself is that every time I have this moment, I have a satisfying moment like that. I can't really load into like, and so this is how it's always going to be now. I really1 (26m 49s):Believe2 (26m 50s):This is how it's supposed to be. And it's like, and I finally figured out how to do it as if any happy moment isn't just fleeting or, you know, lasts for however long it lasts. Yeah.1 (27m 0s):Right. And we're told that they, you know, like they do and that, you know, it's just like every, any time I cut my hair, I'm looking at my neck. It's always turns into Dora the Explorer hair. I cannot stop my hair for being Dora the Explorer. And it's just because it's thick. So she can, she razors it's down. She does all the things. But as soon as it starts to grow, it is Dora the Explorer hair. And I am just going to have to embrace the door or the hair or2 (27m 32s):Jumps, or1 (27m 33s):Just shaved my head.2 (27m 35s):And also, I mean, take heart because most people who are going through menopause start really losing their hair. So you're still growing loud and proud.1 (27m 45s):It's like a triangle head. I just said, yeah,2 (27m 48s):I know. I get the same thing. It's just1 (27m 50s):Thick. And like, what is happening? Oh yeah. Anyway,2 (27m 54s):How much would she charge if you just asked every couple of weeks to go back in just for a quick ride?1 (27m 57s):Sure. I could do that. I could do that. And then, but then, then I have to confront my fear of breaking the salon chair. Remember that whole fear. I have all these fears,2 (28m 6s):But you've sat in that chair and it didn't break. So1 (28m 9s):No, no, it's going to be fine.2 (28m 10s):I think you're good.1 (28m 11s):I'm going to be good. I'm going to be okay. So that's okay. So, but the other thing I have to say is like speaking of urine is I had a friend in high school who's and this is like pretty sad, but her dad was a drunk and every night he would drink and every night he would pee in the hamper because he would think it was the toilet. So he would walk to the, so this reminded me of that, of like, he was so wasted in the night, in the dark and he would get up in a drunken stupor every night. And then I was like, well, why don't you start? Like, I just, now I'm like, why didn't they move the hamper? Or first of all, why they get his ass out of, to rehab. But like, that's the Real underlying question, but like, why not move the hamper and like put a bowl or something.2 (28m 58s):That's an interesting that, that I don't know how that family responded to it. But like, but that way of thinking about it too, like, that's exactly what I would be thinking. Well, I just have to move the hamper.1 (29m 11s):That's also enable whole fucking bright.2 (29m 13s):Right, right. That is a sad story.1 (29m 17s):It happens a lot where people pee in corners and things. And I had died of a brain aneurysm later, but I had a friend who got so wasted. They literally shit in someone's houseplant. And didn't2 (29m 35s):Inside the house.1 (29m 36s):Yes. He tells, he tells a story about it and he, yeah, he shit in his, he was drunk and shit in, or maybe it was high. He was on drugs, something was wrong. And he found out later cause his friend I think told him,2 (29m 53s):Yeah. Right. It's like, Hey buddy, we gotta have a talk. I mean, I'm willing to put up with a lot, but it's shitting in my plants, shipment my ficus. That's where I got to draw the line.1 (30m 6s):All the2 (30m 6s):Things that it is likely. And by the way, I mean, I ever since writing the essay, like I can't pay any more attention to this Johnny Depp thing and whatever it does come my way. It's just sounds like it's like a bunch of fecal matter. And1 (30m 21s):Okay. So I had2 (30m 22s):None1 (30m 23s):After I read your essay, I was like, okay, let me just check it out. And I was at my friend Jesus house and she was like, you've got to listen. She had like it T vote or something. And she's like, I saved this for you to listen to, because I literally could not understand what he was saying. And I said what? She said, no, it is the most at the same time. And I, and I agree, monotonous mixed with mumble dialogue mix with circular logic, mixed with an effect mixed with pretend and mixed with benzodiazepines. I think he's on to keep him sober and like quote sober.1 (31m 4s):I literally thought, oh, this is a technique he's using to like lawless all into believing, whatever. He, it's so hard to track that the brain goes, just let it go. Like don't even2 (31m 20s):Right. Right. And he gets that privilege because, or he has traditionally because of his looks and his status. Yeah. Oh my God. I speak about looks and status. We predicted it. Brittany Spears is back on her bullshit posting nude selfies. I'm the girl is sick. The woman is sick. And I'm not saying she needs to have whatever, some draconian like guardianship, but she's, but now we know why, because she won't take her GED medicine because people like to feel manic. Right.1 (31m 51s):And also it's going2 (31m 52s):To end badly. It's going to end badly1 (31m 53s):And badly. And also the thing I, our friend on social media, Jimmy McDermott posted. Cause I posted like, you know, I want to write a pilot about this trial. And I said, but I'm going to like totally redo the costuming and the SATs. And then Jimmy mid-term had said, yeah, Johnny tap literally looks like he's the tour bus driver of the Al Capone tour in Chicago. Like he2 (32m 16s):Got, he1 (32m 17s):Does like2 (32m 18s):Three1 (32m 18s):Piece what's happening. So anyway, regardless of that, I just want to say like, don't the mumbling and the that's all for me. And this sort of smiling is so indicative of a manipulative, like person that has gotten away with so much shit. I don't care what you think of him in her. I mean, I, of course I care, but like my, my thing is always from the psychological point of view of what is coming across and what is the speaker trying to do either consciously or unconsciously. And my thing is he is trying to lull us into believing that everything's, he's saying, it's just, it's just so neither here nor there it's just so it's and I'm like, okay.1 (33m 3s):And she says, she says, dad, who, by the way, is recovering from a stroke, said, why won't this guy just shut the fuck up? What is he saying? And I said, exactly, exactly. Well, okay, well,2 (33m 18s):But, but silver lining there Jesus' dad was reading better. He's getting out amazing.1 (33m 23s):I just shut up and I was like, exactly,2 (33m 26s):Exactly, exactly. If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable ink production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound next by Gina for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.

Intro: Boz did not invent timezones, JetBlue, Gina makes an embarrassing mistake, Boz has to run her own job interview. Let Me Run This By You: The world is coming to an end so do we still have to do yoga and stuff? Feminist Body Horror, Bros in Hollywood, Vincent Kartheiser, there's a FIGHT AT CO-WORKING!! Interview: We talk to Dave Deveau about being a child actor, Are You Afraid of the Dark, D.J. McHale, the way we stigmatize the bodies of actors (incl. child actors), York University, the Toronto drag scene, Peach Cobblah, Zee Zee Theatre Company, and Carousel Theatre For Young People.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):1 (8s):And Jen Bosworth and I'm Gina . We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet? How you doing? What's going on? Oh my God. I have a similar, I have a similar situation going, whatever that look was. Yeah, you go first. You go first. Okay girl. So, you know, I'm hustling, hustling, trying to get a job. And yesterday, so weird.1 (49s):I yesterday we finally miles and I finally figured out like, maybe I should just work at his company because there are good anyway, lovely people, whatever. So I just submit my resume and a cover letter for a job that I, that is supposedly open, write a great cover letter. Cause that's what I Excel at. I mean, anything else goes to shit, but I can really do a cover letter. So no, but so I sent it and then I get this call. Okay. So then I'm going to see in the car, our friend, Erica, our good friend, Erica. So I'm going to see her and we're going to take a walk and talk about this possible documentary. You know that you and I want to make whatever.1 (1m 30s):So I get five Ms. Calls from Miami and I'm like, what? I know no one in Miami, like Miami is like a place. I know no one. So I'm like, well, I'm not going to pick up. And finally I'm in, I'm in the drive through of the Starbucks and I make it a habit of not talking on the phone while I'm picking up my drink. So I'm like someone I'm like thinking someone's in trouble. You know? Like that's where I go. I'm like someone's in jail or my knee is whatever. So it's this woman. And she, you can tell, you know, like English is not her first language. That's fine. Like English is barely my first language anyways. So I'm talking, she's like, hi, we have an interview for you today at this company.1 (2m 11s):You know the company. And I'm like, oh, okay, well she's like, can you do it at 3:00 PM Eastern time? And I'm like 3:00 PM Eastern time to one to one that's that's noon. Right? Yeah. Noon. I, sorry. I had to do the thing. That's what you were saying. Oh no, no, no. It's noon. And I'm like any it's 1140 at the time or yeah, it's 1140 LA time. And I'm like, okay. So, so in 20 minutes she goes, no 3:00 PM. And I said, okay, just send me the invite. I'll cancel. So I canceled with Erica and then I'm waiting on the invite. And then I get the, I rushed back to put, throw some lipstick on and rush back to coworking to do the interview.1 (2m 57s):And I have like a, an invite from her that 5:00 PM LA time. Okay. So then I'm like, okay. So then I call this person and I'm like, Hey person. And then it is a comedy of mother. This is just like a tip of the iceberg of my day. Yesterday of motherfucking errors. She goes, no 3:00 PM. Your time is 5:00 PM. It became it. And then it was, it was so insane. And I'm like, listen, lady, am I supposed to jump on a call in five minutes? Do I click this in five?1 (3m 37s):Like at this point I'm shouting. I don't know what to do. And she's like, no, you're not letting me speak. I said, okay, go ahead. And she proceeds to say, I'm looking, I don't know what, she doesn't know that my husband works for the company. She goes, I'm looking at my boss's calendar and we have you. And then she starts talking about mountain time and I'm like, lady mountain time is an hour let later. And then she didn't understand. So I literally Gina, Gina, this is what I said I am. So I didn't know what else to do. It was like talking to a drunk, right. Or a person out of control or a crazy like, like I said, listen, ma'am ma'am I don't, I don't invent or make time zone.1 (4m 26s):I didn't know how else to. I said they are a thing that I cannot change. And she goes, what? And they said, here's the thing, like what you're saying? Is it actually making any it's not working? And I go, I don't, I didn't invent time zones. It's a real thing. And she just was quiet. And I said, okay. And I had her boss's email and I'm the kind of bad bitch now where I'm like, I'm just going to cut out. I can't do this. So I just don't have it in me. I'm old. And I'm, I'm just, I know my shit. So I'm like, thank you so much for your help. I got to go. And then I just emailed her boss and was like, listen, your assistant. And I are like having an epic comedy of errors, like time zone, garbage fire.1 (5m 12s):What do you want me to do? And she goes, oh, she wrote back and said, no, no, it's, it's one 30 your time, two 30 mountain time. And the other person on the call is in New York. It just, this is the working remotely different times, zones, English being a problem. And also like, I think that it's so interesting. I think the assistant was trying to be assertive and like hold boundaries and thought, I didn't understand that we actually had a fundamental problem about like math. Right, right, right. So then, and then this, and then I said, okay, so I got that settled. I said, I'm going to jump on this call in an hour then.1 (5m 54s):Yes. Okay. Then I get a call from the assistant again. And like, hi, she goes, I am so sorry. And I said, you know what it is. Okay. She goes, I, I said, don't even worry about it. I just, I couldn't. I literally said like, Gina, I couldn't take it anymore. Ma'am I had, I had to, I had to do something else.2 (6m 16s):Yeah. Yeah. I had to stop. It had though, we were just like Susan powder. We had to stop the insanity. It was just getting out of control. I had a similar comedy of errors with jet blue. Okay. Which is to say, go going back about, no, not even a month. Like actually it was only two and a half weeks ago. You know, we had this plan thing where Aaron was gonna take the boys to Utah and I was taking precedent for them. And I had a feeling that he never booked the tickets, but I didn't, I didn't put that fee.2 (6m 57s):It was one of those things. I didn't put it in the front of my brain. So we're sitting around and I go, what time do you leave on Saturday? He says, oh, I gotta look at my email. So he's looking, I could see the panic is going over his face. And long story short, he, he didn't book the tickets. And so I, I said I would do it, but the jet blue website was having a problem. So I would go, I would get everything all teed up. And then when I tried to book it, it would say there was a problem. Correct. So I did that four times.1 (7m 27s):They charged you four times. So2 (7m 28s):They charged my credit card. I mean like $15,000.1 (7m 36s):Yeah, sure, sure.2 (7m 38s):And so when the first time we called the guy, I said, oh, don't worry. The charges will fall off. Okay. And some of them did, the three big ones did, did fall off. But now it's, you know, it was a few weeks later and not all of them had fallen off. So I called JetBlue. And of course, whenever you call any company, the first thing they do is say, we are so grateful. You called, please don't call us. Please email us, please go to our website. Please talk door robot. So I did, I exchange, I started here. It was nice of me. And I, I agreed to be in line on a text.2 (8m 19s):So they were going to contact me when it was time to start texting with this person. So I'm getting notified. 45 minutes later, Helena is available to text me. So Helena and I are back and forth.1 (8m 32s):Hell2 (8m 34s):Yes. And she, it quickly, she quickly realizes that this is not, this is above her pay grade and I'm going to have to speak to a supervisor. So she tells me to call 1-800-JET-BLUE. And I said, well, Helena, we have a problem here because I did call when 800 jet blue. And it told me to text you, instead of calling, she says, no, you call this number. And, and, and that's a customer service I said, but your customer service. Yeah. But I can't help you. And we're just having this weird back and forth until, until finally I get a thing on the text that says, hello, this is Helena.2 (9m 16s):How can I help you? And I said, is this, I wrote back, is this a robot or a person I could get back? I am a person. Okay. Are you the Helena who couldn't help1 (9m 30s):God?2 (9m 31s):Or are you Helen or the supervisor? No answer. Are you both named Helena? It was so crazy. Anyway. So it's like1 (9m 40s):A fucking movie, right?2 (9m 42s):Solved. It got resolved. And then yesterday I see, I go up on my credit card and I see that they've been recharged. So I called Jack Lou. I wait on hold for one hour.1 (9m 60s):Sure. Oh, I ex2 (10m 2s):Calmly explain to the lady. And she, she asked me, does it, does, does the credit card show like a ticket number? I said, it just says American airlines, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I went, it's American airlines, not jet blue. I'm sorry.1 (10m 26s):Oh my2 (10m 29s):And her response was like, girl, I feel you like that is just what is happening in this world.1 (10m 37s):We are.2 (10m 37s):So like, I know every generation says the world is going to end, but in our case we really have a good case for beating out every1 (10m 48s):Yeah. Like it is. I have noticed. So like then yes, she and Gina, that is like a perfect thing of why the world is going to end. It's just because we're all, we're all doing that. And then, so I get on the interview with these two people and I'm not gonna, you know, bad mouth, a perspective employer. I will say they looked so whooped in not their fault. I'm not saying ugly. I'm not, but like they have been through it, like through it, sweatshirts, akimbo, like China,2 (11m 25s):You're wearing a sweatshirt habits, a Kimbo that's bad. Right.1 (11m 29s):It's a thing is a Kimbo. And the t-shirt under it's akimbo. And like, there's like half drawings of kids' stuff on the back wall. Like everything. I'm like, oh, wow, wow. I'm like presented. But I got like lipstick on I look and I'm like, oh, whoa, everyone needs a lot of help right now.2 (11m 49s):Yes.1 (11m 49s):Like a lot of help.2 (11m 52s):So how'd the interview go?1 (11m 53s):I a blast. I was like, okay, here's what you get when you get me, these are all my experiences. If there's a way to make it fit in your organization. Great. If not, maybe not like I that's how I said that.2 (12m 9s):I love that that's so wise.1 (12m 12s):'cause I, I have so much different shit in my background. And also I'm open to things. And also at the core of who I am is I want to work with people who are kind, but also efficient who are, have their shit together, but also are compassionate. And the kind of work is actually less important than that. And the pay rate.2 (12m 37s):Well, that's all true. But what I, what I feel so impressed by is that inherent in that was a decision not to do what you've probably always done in the past and what I certainly have exclusively done, which is, let me see what the need is. And then let me just contort myself to be, to meet their need, which never works like at like, no matter how many times it didn't work, I stood. That's still the approach that I took.1 (13m 2s):That's our manifesto link. That's the whole thing. And our manifesto it's like trying to fit into something. But here's the other thing, like literally when they started talking about the actual job, it was so vague. I, I, I don't, I didn't know what was going on. They were using terminology and like, part of it is that I don't know that world like comms, a lot of comms talk communication,2 (13m 27s):Vacations. Okay. What will you say the name of the company, but what does, what do they do?1 (13m 33s):It's like a tech company that like, but they're all over the world. It was started as a startup and just went public. They have a lot of good people, but like, I don't know their lingo. Right. So even if I knew the lingo, it was as if, I don't know. I dunno. I was just like, okay, so you, your description of actually what I'm doing on this call is so vague that I actually have to take over,2 (13m 57s):Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Communications was being thrown around a little1 (14m 3s):Calm,2 (14m 4s):This entire story. So far is just rife with terrible communication with this time zone thing and what they're communicating to you by wearing the Kimbo sweatshirts and that they can't communicate to you about what, what the job is or what they're1 (14m 19s):Doing and understand what Insane. And so, and also I think they do, they have a tremendous amount of clients and partners in the Ukraine, so that they're like, and they're doing really a lot of work to try to keep their workers safe. Obviously. I mean, it's not altruistic I'm they need worker, you know what I mean? But, but they're also really helping, but they just literally had looked like they'd been through a war. I was like, w2 (14m 45s):W1 (14m 45s):Wow. So basically I was like, okay, well, I need to take over this interview if there's going to be any kind of, any kind of anything. I mean, and so I just pitched myself. I mean, that's what I do all day, every day in Hollywood. So like, I it's a good at it. And it also doesn't fucking scare me. Like I, what is scary to me is auditioning. Sure. Callbacks. Yeah. Being on set horrified, but like talking to people in a meeting, what have I got to lose? I've done it 4,720 times. And also tangible things have not come out of it, but it doesn't. So it's not as though I've had a bad experience.1 (15m 27s):It's just like, I've had the experiences where like, I haven't seen the flowers yet of the seeds I've planted, so I'm not traumatized by it. I'm just sorta like, whatever. It's like, I'm at coworking anyway. So I can do this. I could do a general with you guys, you know, with you too. I will. Did they seem to feel reassured by quality to take over the okay. That's good. Yeah. And I, I didn't like say like, okay, I wasn't like, I didn't go whole hog, like crazy. Like, what's wrong with you? People, I guess I have to run this interview. It's more like, okay, well, I'm going to just do silence. Right. A lot of sense. And they looked at each other, like I, one just grabbed the other, I think, to come on the call, nobody knew it was happening.1 (16m 12s):It was when I said to the assistant, Hey, can we do this Friday afternoon too? No, they really want you on today. Today. It has to be. And I was like, really? Are you sure you're talking to the right person? They don't know what do they need me on today for? I don't know what's happening. So it was just an interesting, it's an interesting time, Gina. It's like a crazy fucking time. Let me run this by you. I'm really struggling with his life.1 (16m 53s):The world is ending. Do I really need to keep refreshing our download numbers on my web browser? Do I really need to like start doing yoga? I just feel like the world, but then there's this thing like you're describing it's humanity. That's the thing that always comes through in the end. I have to say, life finds a fucking way. Life runs away as garbage as people are, particularly men. I'm sorry to say, but it's true. Like men ruin everything as garbage as people are. There's also, and I guess as landscaping being a great example of a good exception, a good man, there's always people there who are ready to turn it around and do the right thing and make the better choices and, you know, Medicaid people who are out of control and their decision making.1 (17m 40s):We have to take comfort in that. Yeah. I mean, I, there is comfort. I think that it is. Yeah. And it reminds me of like this sort of Adam McKay stuff of like, I mean, I haven't seen all of don't look up, but like, you know, I think through art, there's gotta be a way to, to like help in some way. Like I was just, I I'm thinking about like, yeah. Humor, humor, helping. The other thing that I have stumbled upon is I think, okay. So I wrote, I have a friend, a guy friend from Chicago, who's a director and he moved to LA and he's hilarious.1 (18m 23s):And he's like me married to someone, not in the business. He's like a normal guy. Right. And so he's, he's like, he wants to direct horror. He's a commercial director, but he wants to do horror. And he's like, do you have a horror film? I'm like, well, no, I don't have a show. He wants to strike to horror short. But then I wrote this piece called the weight of breath about my body. Right. And, and he's like, oh, this is body horror. And I was like, what? It is a whole new genre, feminist fucking body horror where it's a genre. And I was like, oh my God, I'm obsessed. So it is like,2 (18m 57s):That's very much was in your piece that you wrote, explain it to me more than,1 (19m 1s):Okay. So I didn't know it existed. So this, it all kind of coincided. So I talked to this guy, Justin, who I adore and I said, and I said, well, I could send you the only short, short I have. That's written that I wrote for a submission and didn't get anywhere. Sure. I'll send it to you. Whatever. It's about a woman who is covered in Spanx, can't breathe, get broken up with grabs a huge pair of scissors and starts hacking away at her at her Spanx. And then you think she might kill him. And then he leaves, okay. By a fat lady that, that like has a breakup kind of anyway, he's like, oh, you're like one step away from her. And that she just needs to, it's the way we'll shoot it. And she'll hurt herself a little bit while she's, you'll see blood.1 (19m 44s):And also the Spanx metal we'll dig into her body and you'll see like a puncture. So that is body horror. And I was like, oh, I'm all in. And the, and the impetus for that short was I was on set. I don't know if I ever talked about this. I was on set. I was cast in something as a nurse. And I had S and the, and the costumer said, you're going to wear Spanx right in under my2 (20m 12s):Scrubs. Yeah.1 (20m 13s):I was like, okay. So I bought this special pair of Spanx that I did not try on before I got to set that had metal, ribbing, metal, ribbing too small, but now I'm in them and I'm on set and I'm already petrified because I'm petrified and they start cutting. It broke loose of its binding. And the metal started cutting into my stomach and you2 (20m 36s):Couldn't sit1 (20m 37s):Down and I couldn't sit down. And I couldn't, I couldn't tell anybody because I was so embarrassed. And I told this to Justin and I couldn't and I got home and I had a huge gash that was infected in my stomach, my area of most self hatred, my belly, my gut. And it was bloody and it was bruised. And I thought, oh my God. So that's body horror. Right? And like, the way you tell that story is feminist body horror. And I'm like, oh my God. And I think Gina, it's going to be, well, what I'm wondering is, is it the only way that women get to express themselves in Hollywood is by making like body horror.2 (21m 17s):First of all, having a body is a horror, correct? I mean, do you know that that's a great premise for a whole pardon? The pun, big body of work? Because I think about that with relate, with respect to being fat. But I also think about it with respect to being old aging, Aging is such and, and being fat. And aging is like such a horrible combo because young and fat is a different thing than old and fat. Right. Older fat is just like, that has this positive connotation.1 (21m 57s):Also you could, there's underlying is that you could always lose it. You're young enough to lose it. There's2 (22m 2s):Still time. Right.1 (22m 4s):And it's not like it's not body positive, fat, positive movements are like taking hold, but old and fat. No,2 (22m 11s):It's all. Yeah. Yeah. I always often wonder do the body, body positive folks know that the biggest thing they have on their side right now is that they're young and fat as opposed to anyway. So to answer your question. Yeah. I'm sure that is the only way. And I mean, our only way in as women to anything that has been traditionally closed off to us is violent. Right? I mean, that's the only way we ever get into anything. And we always have a lot of casualties in the fronts of these feminist wars, you know, the sexual revolution. I mean, not that it didn't happen always, but you know, more spotlight on the free love movement meant that women were the casualties of a lot of sexual abuse and rape pregnancy traumas, all this kind of stuff.2 (23m 1s):Yeah. So, but you know, like you did in your beautiful blog, posts people, if you haven't read it, please go to our website and read Jen's posts. Luckily for us, we're really, we're really familiar with this horror. We're really familiar with this pain. And if we can turn it into art, then, then I hesitant, I hesitate to say will have been worth it, but at least we can do something.1 (23m 30s):Well, I'm going to turn it. Yeah. I want to turn it into money too. That's where it makes people pay. I mean, that's the pocketbooks way, which is why, like I'm getting a job outside of this industry first to be like, okay, I'm studying that, did it. And how they did it. One their bros. And they'd probably, it's all nepotism. But also if that's not the case, they started an advertising, nothing to do with Hollywood, but Hollywood, but not Hollywood per se. And they, they made money that way and then sunk it into their own projects. And then they were able to, and they made contacts in the advertising industry.1 (24m 12s):That's how so many bros have done it in Hollywood. So many bros2 (24m 15s):That, that the Genesis of that is so beautifully displayed in mad men. You see the character, I forget the name of the character that Vincent CHRO Heizer with Where he, you know, he, he, I just remember he gets involved in hire a campaign for the sport of Jai Alai and he starts, there's something about it's going to be on television and you just see him getting so sucked into the Glen. I, you know, it's, it's an, it's an undeniable glamorous draw for people who are not in the industry. Like, Ooh, everybody thinks it's glamorous to be on TV. And yes.2 (24m 56s):And people in advertising are like the perfect blend of, you know, cutthroat and creative. Maybe a little bit. And yeah. Anyway.1 (25m 6s):Yeah. I mean, I, I like doing yeah. That, that my blog post was completely completely w started by that. Like, because I'm one nosy too quick, three know my way around. And my memory's great. And know my way around research. I literally saw names did this, did this, did that, did this?4 (25m 41s):I don't know. I think there's a fight. What? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the, it's the1 (25m 51s):Guys, it2 (25m 51s):Seem like it's inside the building.1 (25m 53s):Oh, it's two coworkers. It's two people at co-working and there's a guy there's a movie maker on the left and a, a professor on the right. And they got into it2 (26m 4s):About Ukraine. Probably. They're probably talking about that.1 (26m 7s):And they might be, I dunno, anyway, that's what's forgive me anyway. No,2 (26m 10s):No,1 (26m 12s):Whoa. So, okay. So, but it was, I just couldn't research and put it together and I'm like, okay, who are these people? What are they doing? Oh, they did this. Oh, and look, look, look, look, look, look, of course people are like, well, someone was like, well, you know, you know, at one it's bad for business to talk shit about the industry. And I'm like, oh, okay. But there is no business. I have no business. What business do I have? I don't2 (26m 35s):Have any said that. Like, you shouldn't write1 (26m 37s):That. Like, like, like you want to be careful. And I was like, okay,2 (26m 42s):Well, it's never as if that's ever1 (26m 43s):Worked. Also. I said, lady, it was a woman too. And I said, listen, I have no work. There is no work. What am I, what do you mean? I won't get hired. I'm not getting hired. Not I, this is not no, like that doesn't even make any sense. It holds no water. Cause it's just, it's not true. And you know, I won't be hired if I'm dead because I stifled myself and then have a heart attack. You know what I mean? So anyway, that people say all kinds of stuff, but I also know that it is a bigger problem. I guess that's what I'm saying. It's not about these 2, 3, 2 dudes in an assistant at a table. And it is about the dues and the assistant at a table.1 (27m 25s):It's a much larger problem. So I I'm well aware that, that these three dudes are not the whole problem because people are like, you know, maybe they're nice. I'm like, oh my God, you're missing the fucking point.2 (27m 41s):You're missing the point. I'm1 (27m 43s):Nice too. I don't have a fucking job with an a, or a script with my name on it.2 (27m 47s):And we have all internalized patriarchy to such a degree that like, we miss it when it's gone. I, that group that I left. Oh yeah, it has gone. You know, I'm still, I'm still a member of the group, even though I'm not, you know, in any type of a leadership position because everything okay.1 (28m 2s):Yeah. Everything is okay.2 (28m 4s):Okay. The first thing that happened when the majority of us left is a bunch of men or like a few men came in to, it was an all female board and now it's, there's there's men on it, which is fine. And the, one of the first things they did was they re-instituted, do you know what Robert's rules1 (28m 26s):Is? No, what's that,2 (28m 28s):It's like a way of conducting a meeting where you have to have motions and seconds and all of, you know, it's1 (28m 34s):Is it like a business meeting in a 12 step group? Have you ever done?2 (28m 39s):And I, I dunno. Okay. Well sure. And I, and on the face of it, I understand it's, it's meant to be, it's meant to ensure that everybody gets to speak their mind and you know, and it, and it's meant to be, you know, it's meant to promote cohesion, but it just something about it. It's like, Robert's for like, that's what came in. It's just Robert's rules. It's just1 (29m 8s):Gross.2 (29m 9s):And it's, and, and, you know, and the organization is just gone. It's as it's as if our whole tenure, there was a fever dream and they all went like that was weird. And they just moved right back to where it all was1 (29m 23s):Before. Right. That's really sad. That's super sad.2 (29m 26s):It's sad. And I feel like in the same way that a group of humans will always look for a leader, a group of humans will always look for the, a man to be in charge. Right? It's it's, it's so deeply embedded in our DNA5 (29m 55s):Today on the podcast, we are talking to Canadian playwright, Dave devote a K a peach cobbler has drag queen alter ego. If you watched a television show in the, I think it was in the early nineties called, are you afraid of the dark? You probably saw Dave because he, in addition to being a playwright and a drag performer and an actor, he wasn't child star. So David's warm and funny and look just really a breath of fresh air. So please enjoy our conversation with Dave Devoe.6 (30m 40s):So2 (30m 44s):Anyway, Dave dissolves, congrats. Wait, actually, I have to phrase this differently for the first time I'm asking Dave devote. Did you survive theater school? Did you go to theater7 (30m 54s):School? Parts of me did.2 (30m 57s):But you went to theater7 (30m 58s):School? I did. Okay. Okay.2 (30m 60s):Good.7 (31m 2s):I'm like, what are you talking about?2 (31m 4s):Yeah, we have, we've had just one person who she actually, more than one person. People have different conceptions of what theater school is. And some people do a theater major and they don't know the difference between that and the conservatory. I couldn't care less, but I just didn't know for certain with you. So congratulations. You did survive theater school, but what, see what you're going to say more about you've survived parts of it?7 (31m 29s):Well, no, like I think like parts of me survived, right? Like I think, I think we, we all come out of theater school, like a slightly different assembly of parts than we come in. And I think for some people that's great. And I think for some people that's super detrimental. So we'll see where we all fall on that stuff.2 (31m 47s):Part of you was a casualty,7 (31m 52s):You know what, oddly enough, the, the actor part of me with, I think, was a casualty, like, because I sort of came to theater school from a very let's start at the beginning. I was a child actor in film and TV from a young young age. And so then sort of went to theater by starting in film and TV because theater felt, you know, like a really safe, lovely community-driven space. But, but I think what theater school gave me is like, I came into theater school thinking I'm going to be an actor. And I left knowing I would be a playwright for my life.7 (32m 35s):Yeah. So that was a good, first1 (32m 37s):Of all, back back it up Child, we've had one other child star Jonas Avery was on, but, but he went theater and then film and TV and back to theater school. So tell us you really, how, what happened there? That,7 (32m 54s):Yeah, I mean, it, it's, it's a bit bizarre. I was, you know, a sort of theatrical, precocious child and there, you know, and I was really into like, we, we go see a lot of theater growing up, but not a lot. I mean, we, but my parents don't come from the arts, but they were like, let's expose our kids to interesting things. And then I was, I must've been in like kindergarten grade one, something like that. And there was a teacher's assistant in our class who spoke to my mother saying my mom's an agent and your kid is really like vivacious. And do you think that's something he'd be interested in? My mom was like, I don't, I have no idea what you're talking about.7 (33m 38s):So anyway, we met with her and, and my mom's like, is this like, is this something you're interested in? I was1 (33m 44s):Like, sure, let's do it. Let's7 (33m 45s):See what happens. And, and so I just started doing like a lot of commercials, you know, when, like when I was a little, little one and then my mom was great as far as just really constantly checking in of like, is this fun? Like, is this a thing you'd like, because I mean, I don't think it was fun for like schlepping a kid around to endless auditions. That's not fun.1 (34m 7s):She knows2 (34m 9s):My kid. It's not fun. Wait, I have to time out one second, Dave, your, either your microphone here, it is sometimes7 (34m 17s):Just hold it. Cause1 (34m 18s):It2 (34m 18s):Hits your shirt and it makes up, sorry, please continue.7 (34m 22s):Yeah. So, so you know, okay.1 (34m 26s):So wait, wait, wait, I can, I can start us up with what you just said was super interesting when you met this person, were you thinking like, oh, this is an agent like, or were you just like, what was going on in your brain?7 (34m 39s):What I was thinking? I think it was more, you know, they're like, I think that the, the idea of like being on camera is really novel to kids because I think it's very different now. Like we live in a social media age, but like in the late eighties, early nineties, whenever that, yeah, probably like late eighties at this point, that's like, that's a cool thing. You know, we don't even have a big camcorder at home. Like this. I can be what in front of a camera, let's try that. So it was great. And, and then when we, when we moved, we had to move a lot for my dad's work. And so, but we kept moving to like bigger and bigger film, TV hubs, right?7 (35m 20s):Like, so when we settled in Montreal, I, the agent I'd had in Calgary had sort of forwarded us to an agent in, in Montreal. And, and then I started actually going out for like, like real stuff, like films, and then I booked a series and then it was, oh, we're doing this. Okay. And so1 (35m 42s):How old were you when you booked a series? Like that's, everyone's dream by the way that in LA, right. So7 (35m 47s):Yeah, I will, the first1 (35m 51s):Season, first series I7 (35m 53s):Would have. Oh God, that's a great question. I was probably like nine or 10. I might've been like, I might've been 12 by then.1 (36m 4s):And you were series regular, like7 (36m 6s):Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's1 (36m 7s):So, but I mean, it's,7 (36m 11s):It sounds like it's way more work than it is because, so do, do you remember the Nickelodeon show? Are you afraid of the dark?1 (36m 18s):So that7 (36m 19s):Was, that was the show. So I was part of the campfire, which so yes, I'm a series regular and I appear in every episode, but it's like, there's a scene at the beginning. There's a scene at the end. We shoot the whole like season in like three weeks.1 (36m 33s):Right.7 (36m 34s):So it's not1 (36m 37s):Awesome. Yeah, because that's a show where like, yeah, you, you, the kids, and then you go into the story in the middle. Right. The actual story. That is fantastic. What was that like for you?7 (36m 49s):Th that series was, was incredible because I mean, a, I was a huge fan of that show. So I actually got cast at first. I got cast in one of the episodes, like in the story, not the campfire and had a real blast. And, and then I thought, wow, are you for the dark? This is amazing. We shot it. And then the series was done. It got canceled. And I thought, oh, okay, well, I'm glad I just snuck in there. So then two, three years later, they announced that they were going to bring the show back. And I called my agent immediately saying, if they're casting campfire, you have to get me in there.7 (37m 29s):Like, please, please, please, please, please I'll do anything. And she said, yeah, yeah, I'm trying. And they wouldn't see me. And I was, I was livid. And then I called us, like, sneak me in for callbacks. Like we know this casting director, she cast me before, like, please just get me in there to like, you know, all of my child, actor, friends, like went and had their callbacks. I had nothing. I was so angry. And I was like, can you sneak me in with like the girls? Cause like first they did the boys. Like, can anything please1 (37m 55s):Hustler, man, you're a hustler.7 (37m 58s):I love that show like so much. I don't know. And, and I mean, that is not, I'd never hustled for any other thing ever, but I was just, so it just felt like it's a sign. I, you know, it's, it's coming back and I just had this thing and I had such a great rapport with like the producers and the director and blah, blah, blah. So months go by and I'm, I, you know, I'm sad and I move on and then I get a call from my agent saying, they, you know, you're, you're coming in for a meeting. It's like a meet a meeting. Like, what does that mean? What's a meeting. We've never had a meeting.1 (38m 31s):Right. What is a meeting?7 (38m 32s):But it's at the, it's at like the casting directors office. I'm like, okay. So we go in and there's, you know, DJ like DJ and Ned that the creators, the producers. And they're like, Hey Dave, Hey guys. And they said, you know, You, you you've been really trying to like get in the room, haven't you? Like, I was like, oh God, that's this mortifying. Like I said, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're like, and they said, you know, well, we, you know, we had to, we had to audition a bunch of people, but, but we wrote a role in the series for you.7 (39m 12s):And they were like, so what do you say? Like, like, is this, am I being punked? Like what's happening right now? So,1 (39m 21s):Oh my God. I just feel so. And I just want to say, I don't think there's any coincidence that it was in Canada where people are fucking nice.7 (39m 30s):Right? Yeah.1 (39m 32s):Anyway,7 (39m 34s):This is a1 (39m 34s):Dream7 (39m 35s):And what happened? And, and then, you know, suddenly it was, I was off to like, we started about a month later and it, it was shot in Montreal. Like the whole series was always shot in Montreal. And, and so we did the first season and I thought, well, that's exciting. And then suddenly they were like, Hey, we're flying all of you to New York. You're going to host Snick. I was like, I don't know what that is. We don't get Nickelodeon in Canada. Like, so they suddenly, we were in Manhattan, like shooting all this promo stuff and there were billboards and we were like, what is going on? And that was, so that was like, really, I mean, you know, I did a bunch of like real garbage, like movies and things, but that was like my one little sort of touchdown in like, oh, is this, what is this?7 (40m 17s):What fame is like1 (40m 18s):Stars to be a star. And I7 (40m 20s):Felt a bit uneasy about it truthfully. Like I was like, I don't know that that's I could see, I could see myself on that track and I could see what that probably would be for me. And I think I worried a bit about what that would, what that would1 (40m 38s):A lot about that. We talk a lot about that, about like, if I had gotten famous right out of theater school, I'd be dead. I mean, I would probably have done so many drugs and then been so interacts. Like I would have killed, I would have died at7 (40m 50s):Some point.2 (40m 52s):So what does that mean? I'm projecting ahead. Does that mean your eventual move into theater was a way of stepping back from the insanity of television?7 (41m 5s):I mean, I wonder like, it's interesting. Cause I shouldn't say that I sort of discovered theater. Like they were happening in tandem. I was doing community theater, you know, I do like the community musical in the small town where I lived and then I'd say, Hey guys, I've got to go away for three weeks to shoot. Are you afraid of dark? I'll be back and I'll resume my role. So,1 (41m 26s):So7 (41m 27s):I think, I dunno, I think so. So, okay. So, so the show happened and then I was, I was going to a fine arts high school in their creative writing program because originally I wanted to audition for the drama program, but I had, I was already on, are you afraid of the dark at that point? And so they were like, okay, but if you have to go shoot it, like you can't just not show up for drama classes for weeks at a time. Like that's not, that's not a thing. And so I was like, oh, that's a solid point. So, but I could do that in, in creative writing because it's like, I was a studious kid. I was like, I will get everything in on time. I will fax in every assignment from Stax facts. Yeah. Right.7 (42m 8s):So, so towards the end of high school, I knew by then through this creative writing program was really when I, because we were writing in every genre, but I kept going back to playwriting because it was like dialogue, dialogue. I get this, like I come from film and TV. Like I get this, this is how I see the world and hear the world. So I started applying for theater schools and then, and then got cast, I got offered another series.1 (42m 38s):Are you fucking the greatest fucking story I've ever heard?7 (42m 45s):And I, and I, then this is not self-deprecating. I think I'm a, I think I'm a good play. Right. But like, I've never been a good actor ever, like, but it was a time and place where there were roles for like a vivacious fat kid. I was much bigger as a kid. And I was it like, I was that kid,1 (43m 2s):Right?7 (43m 4s):Yeah. So it's like, there were a lot1 (43m 5s):Of, you had a niche and7 (43m 7s):You really1 (43m 7s):Did.7 (43m 8s):Yeah. So it was like, I knew that, you know, oh, you're shooting, there's, there's a film coming to town about a soccer team. Right. And they're going to cast a bunch of kids, that's you? There's a fat kid role. Sure enough, there I have.1 (43m 21s):Well, let's talk about that because that's really interesting to me and really, I mean, I also, I was an overweight kid and I'm plus size lady now. And I know that. So tell me about that. Was there an I was there, did you have feelings about being that kid?7 (43m 37s):It's interesting. Cause I don't, I don't know that I had them in the moment, but my God have I had them since I, years, years later, I was in a, like an emerging filmmaker program for the queer film festival in Toronto. And I made this short film called belly, which was all about like, not, you know, not just being like, like coming of age as like a chubby gay kid and like their staff attached to that. But specifically coming of age as a chubby gay kid on camera and being chronicled as such and like, and having like, and then, you know, we edited together footage of all of these things.7 (44m 17s):Like, like things that I was like, I can't even believe they asked like an eight year old kids to say that on camera. Right?1 (44m 23s):Like, like stuff about your weight and stuff7 (44m 26s):Pan to this character. Anyways, we're filming this guy ends up in hospital. And so I'm the kid in the bed next to him. And he starts like chatting like, oh, Hey, what's your name? Oh, I'm Stan. Oh, what are you doing in the hospital? Oh, I'm fat. Oh, but like, what else is wrong with you? No, nothing. I'm just fat, but my parents think there's something else wrong with me. Cause I'm so fat. And I was like,2 (44m 47s):Wow,7 (44m 50s):Like how, like how potentially lethally damaging that could be. Right.1 (44m 55s):Did you just compartmentalize it or?7 (44m 58s):Well, cause I think I was like, I'm on set with like, I mean, you know, a bunch of friends who I knew, like we'd done a bunch of films together. In fact, Ryan Gosling was in that movie with us back when he was, you know, a young kid, Burt Reynolds was in it. Like, it was just like, we're doing this fun thing, but also, huh. So2 (45m 18s):Yeah, there's, there's just no attention paid even w cause my son is also gets called in for those roles. He only gets called in for the bully. That that's the only role he ever gets called in for it. And when he gets cast, I just feel like it starts with costume fittings. It, the otherness, the separateness starts there and it's like, they're, they're calling me back. Is this really his like, I can't are these really his measurements? Yes. These are really his measurements. Okay. And then, and then inevitably it's something like we had to, we had to, it was hard to find pants, that kind of thing and saying that to him and or in front of saying it to me, but in front of him,7 (46m 2s):But isn't this like, isn't this your job? Like, isn't your job finding clothing for bodies. Yeah,1 (46m 8s):It is. And, and, and, and I, I, yeah. And as an actor, I have the same thing. So I find that if I had been so traumatized by, by the, not just the words on sets and ER, intelligent film, but also as an actor by the crew and by the especially wardrobe and makeup and hair and, and anyway, so you compartmentalize that part of it and you also, it sounds like no one was like, mean to you to your face. Like they weren't like, oh, we can't find clothes for you. Or,7 (46m 41s):I mean, I, I think they were a bit, but I, but I think I was really sheltered by like really good parents. Like, and I mean, you know, cause, cause I was in, there were the kids on set who had like, you know, that stage parent who like really is there to make sure their kid is successful and make sure that kids like that. And that was not the energy I had. Like I had, you know, like my mom is, is a refugee. Like she came to Canada as a refugee. Like she grew up in a very particular context and this is a very different context where she's like, I'm just here to make sure no one is fucking with my kid. Like, and not in like an aggressive way, but just in like, okay, let's, let's walk away from this conversation.7 (47m 23s):We don't want to do that. So I felt I was very taken care of in that sense.2 (47m 28s):So you, what, describe the bridge between doing all of that and then when it's time for college and you're looking into acting program or at the beginning, that's what you were going to do as an acting program.7 (47m 40s):Yeah. Yeah. So I applied for a bunch of programs, like determined that I was going to be that, you know, conservatory actor. And like, I, I look back at it now and it's so funny. It's like my, like I'm trying to sort of rationalize what my 17 year old brain, like how I chose, who I applied to. It's so confused. Like I I've applied for Juilliard like two or three times in my life, but like no other, like, but it's like Juilliard and then like the local college in my town.2 (48m 13s):Interesting.7 (48m 13s):Interesting. Like what's the Juilliard connection I have anyway. I probably someone told me once probably that Juilliard was the place and that really set in somehow. So I applied for a bunch of theater schools and there was one program in particular that I was curious about because they have a conservatory program and they have a playwriting stream and they also had what they, at that time called creative ensemble. So like devised theater. And I thought like that there's something in that maybe that's a thing. So, so I got accepted to that school and that, that school is a funny way.7 (48m 54s):It's called York university. It's just outside of Toronto and, and I mean, I'm sure there are many theater schools like this, but at that school, like everyone starts in first year in sort of a general, like all the theater students, you don't, you don't start your conservatory till second year. So you have your first year to do some shit and then you re audition for the streams. So I went there pretty determined that I really wanted to see the conservatory stream. And then there's something about the, like, you know, my acting and movement and voice classes in first year that I was like, I, I think the writing was like kind of on the wall there of like, I'm not great at this.1 (49m 39s):Okay. So say more. Yeah, yeah.7 (49m 41s):Yeah. Like I, because I mean, I think, you know, filming TV was such a fun thing for me that I was like, this needs to be fun. And like, I think it was like, I have to learn how to work in a very different way than I think my brain, or even like how weird and disconnected from my body. I am these years. Like more than I'm prepared to do.1 (50m 10s):Where you at with your body in that, in terms of when you started that school, like had you sent out or like, were you still in7 (50m 18s):Like, like many of us, like, you know, you thin out and then you don't and then you thin out again. Sure. Cause I know that between, between my first season of our, for the arc and my second season, I lost a ton of weight. And so when I showed up for fittings the second year, there was a bit of panic in the room of like, we don't know, like, Ooh, like you're, you're like the fat country bumpkin kid, like, Ooh. Hmm. So they, they padded. Yeah. They just like, they, they put they'd put me in like really bulky layers with like things on top. Like not like actual, like a fat suit, like right. Definitely shit like went out of their way to make me heftier because I think they were like, you know, kids at home, they don't want to be like, what's with Andy looks different.7 (51m 6s):What's going on.2 (51m 7s):Right, right. Oh my God.1 (51m 10s):Oh my God forbid, people change. God forbid.7 (51m 14s):So I think, you know, I like I came out when I was probably about 15. So I think after coming out was probably when I became hyper aware of my body because you know, body image in queer men, especially in that era, I think like we're in a very different time now when I think about like body positivity and in all kinds of communities, but less so then, so I think I probably started theater school, like probably slimmer than I'd ever been, I would think, but still feeling like that was not the case.1 (51m 58s):Interesting. So you're in these movement classes, these voice and speech classes and you're like, I don't think this is really right for me. So then what do you do?7 (52m 8s):So I, I like, I, I signed up to audition for the, for the conservatory, but I also sign up to audition for ensemble. And when I look at like the actual requirements of the audition, as I'm building my materials, I'm like, I don't want to do a fucking Shakespearian monologue, like ever. I do not to this day. Like, you know, I mean, I'm, I'm an artistic director of a company here. We have a Shakespeare component. Like1 (52m 38s):I was going to be a hard pass on the old Shakespeare for me.7 (52m 41s):Yeah. I dunno. Like it's just, I think I'm, I'm so I, so contemporary in my, in my taste of everything, you know, I, I read voraciously, but I want, I like historical fiction book. That's a bit of a slog for me. So, so I think it was like, I want, I think I started to take ownership of like, I know my creativity and I know where my strengths lie and my strengths lie in creating things. And I just, I think having come from like my creative writing intensive, like high school program, I was like, I don't know if I can spend every minute of the day interpreting rather than, than creating, or at least like, I'm now sort of imbuing that with like some kind of like, I have no idea if this is actually true, that, that I had this aha moment.7 (53m 44s):Or if I just panicked, I was like, I don't want to learn Shakespeare. I'm going to do this thing2 (53m 49s):Some for some reason. And maybe it's because I know that you went on to become a drag performer, something for some reason, I have this idea that maybe what was off putting to you is this idea that you were always going to be in that context, just embodying the words that, you know, I was actually just saying this to somebody the other day, actors have a unique kind of prison as artists in the sense that if they don't go on to direct and write, which almost everybody is doing these days, but if they don't, they're, they're, they're limited to only ever expressing the words of another person.2 (54m 32s):And it actually makes them in many cases we've learned even from doing these interviews, not that great at talking about themselves and their way of thinking. Cause it's all just been inside and what's been outside is the words of other people. I wonder if that somehow seemed true for you even then.7 (54m 49s):That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that, that really resonates. So I went into this, I audition for this device theater program and even just like, you know, sometimes like sometimes you just know like when, when I, when it was like, okay, this is what I have to prepare. Okay, this, this has a lot to prepare, but like, let's do it. Let's, let's go to the studio and let's just spend hours and hours and hours getting this down. And I thought like, okay, that's interesting. Like I'm really leaning into this rather than pulling away. So like, okay. So I got into that program. And1 (55m 28s):So this was a devised7 (55m 30s):Theater, so it's like third, I think 25 of us. And, and it was literally like, you know, on Monday they're like, okay, we're this week we're in groups of four, your central theme is isolation and, and you need, you know, like there'll be certain other components and you present Friday for an audience go Was, it was great. It was really, and, and I mean, and they'd give us some really specific projects and, but it was great. It was just like generative, constantly generative. And, you know, I do think, you know, if someday I end up in a TV writer's room, like it, it, it will be because of that, of just knowing that I have to make something and I have to make something, I just have to make it work in a tiny, tiny of time.7 (56m 24s):There's no, there's not room for like this deep contemplation up, but what, I don't know, it's just do it.1 (56m 31s):Oh, you're going to, that is, that is going to, if you ever did want to do TV and a TV, like I know I'm not in a writer's room, but like, from what I know, yeah. That's like extremely helpful because overthinking and second guessing in those situations is like, nobody has time, time is money and just make a choice and fucking move on versus having an hiring. So good for you. So you, so that taught you that like you just go with it.7 (57m 3s):Yeah. And I, and I do think that how I work as a playwright is still very much that, of, of like I, and sometimes to my detriment where it's like, just, I'm just going to dive in and just write and write and write and write rather than like, I'm going to sit, I'm going to actually like outline this thing and really figure out beat by beat where I'm headed, which I'm starting to do a bit more now in my practice. So, so yeah, I got into that program and then still took like voice and movement classes with, with some of the conservatory kids on top of that. And then also started in playwriting and dramaturgy classes because I just thought it would all support what I was doing.2 (57m 47s):Oh. And I'm sure it really did. I am obsessed with drag performance and I would love to know when that started for you and what the whole journey has been like.7 (57m 58s):Yeah. So I always, I mean, when I, when I was in theater school, I was always going out to drag shows, you know, like the, the, the gay bar was, was really like, like sacred space that, and I mean, I remember, I remember not really under Steven understanding. I remember seeing drag for the first time and thinking like, why does this happen? Like, what is this? Like, you know, like why, and also like, why is it so compelling? Because on paper, it shouldn't be right. Like, okay, so someone's going to dress up and they're going to, they're not going to sing, but they're going to lit, like, they're going to pretend they're singing to a song, but it's, but I ended up being so like when it's done well, it can be really moving.7 (58m 49s):And I remember like really, I think started starting to sort of study it of like, what is that, like, why is this, why does this resonate? And then got really into sort of researching the history of drag. And I had never, and I always said like, I have no intention of ever doing drag. I just love witnessing it. I find it actually quite like that shared energy, I find quite compelling and it sort of speaks to human level.1 (59m 17s):It sounds, you know, Jean and I are both former therapists and it, to me, it sounds therapeutic. I mean, like that's when you talk about it, like it sounds and, and, and it sounds, yeah, you said it sacred. So whenever there's sacred space, there's usually some kind of healing that goes on. Yeah.7 (59m 37s):Yeah. So then my, my husband, well then the guy was sort of dating. He was, I was living in Toronto. He was here in Vancouver and he came up to visit me and I introduced him to, you know, the world of drag and all these shows, which again, he'd never really participated in, but, but it became this, you know, we were there every week to see the same show with the same Queens and being really into it. And, and then we, and then I found out I got into grad school in Vancouver, so we both moved back to Vancouver. And when I arrived here, I thought like, wow, drag here is really, it's really different from, from Toronto drag. Like it's different in the structure of shows.7 (1h 0m 19s):It's everything about it. Like in Toronto, you know, a drag queen comes out and in one costume will, you know, do like eight numbers and talk to the audience in between. And then she rotates up in the next one comes in and then you sort of rinse and repeat. So it's just like, it's endless and like lots of1 (1h 0m 34s):Show kind of a thing.7 (1h 0m 35s):Yeah. But it's Vancouver, it's like a drag queen comes out. She does one number and address. She disappears and then the next one comes out. It's just like one number, no talking. I thought like, oh, this is odd. It's hard. It's hard for me to sort of penetrate it because there, you're not developing that rapport with an audience. So, so we were sort of watching a show one night, having just seen all these magical shows in Toronto and saw the show that was just not particularly moving. And I remember leaning into my husband saying, you could do way better than this and not wanting to be those naysayers who just shit all over everyone else's efforts without actually doing anything. We said, yeah, actually like, let's do that.7 (1h 1m 19s):And so my husband had started a theater company here in Vancouver and I come from a bit of a fundraising background and, you know, they had no grant, they had no money to, to, to do the first show. So I said, you know, let me run some events. I used to run some events in Toronto and let's have you as the drag queen star. And then for years and years, I mean, our, our events took off and, and you know, at first we're doing them quarterly and then monthly and then weekly. And, and we really were living like the like casual fall kind of life. Like I was the producer who carried the bags and, and he was the star. And then as he's a, he's a theater director.7 (1h 1m 59s):So as he then had to go direct a show, I was like the, the understudy. And I started hosting his show just on sort of on a whim. I was like, I'll do this once because I really want to make some tip money because I've been producing the show for free for years. And it'd be great to just be able to pay my liquors Hab. And I did it, and it was really magical. And, and it was like, and also kind of emotional because I was like, oh, Hey child, actor, Dave, who did this thing for years and years, and then stopped how you doing there you are.7 (1h 2m 39s):Hmm. Interesting. And so it's stock and I've been doing it regularly for a decade and had a weekly show. And yeah,2 (1h 2m 51s):I was expecting you to say so that you then started in Vancouver, the kind of drag that you really related to more in Toronto. Is that, is that how it worked out?7 (1h 3m 2s):Yeah, we just sort of, yeah. Yeah. I think, and I mean, we, you know, we still do a lot of shows. Like we do guest spots on other people's shows that still have that sort of Vancouver structure. But yeah, I started, I started a show here called shame spiral, which was literally, I show up in and outfit. I do have a guest in the show and, you know, she prepares some numbers, but I don't know what I'm performing on any given night. So I have, what's called the blender of shame, which is an actual blender with the blades removed full of a hundred different songs on pieces of paper. And so when it's time for me to do, like, I talked to the audience relentlessly, when it's time to do a number on audience member comes up, picks a number, it brings it directly to the DJ.7 (1h 3m 44s):And then the whole gimmick is like, will she even, will she know this? Will she even recognize it from the opening bars? Let's see what happens. And so it's like this gag that everyone's in on2 (1h 3m 56s):And,7 (1h 3m 58s):And yeah, and, and it became, it was just so different than anything. Cause everyone was so used to like, Nope, you have to be in the exact outfit. That's in the music video to do that song. And I'm like, well, no, this week I'm going to be in this sort of like flowy number. And maybe I'm getting Shirley Bassey or maybe I'm getting Nicki Minaj or maybe I'm getting Dolly Parkin. And any of those songs are going to happen in what I'm wearing.2 (1h 4m 21s):What's it like to do Nicki Minaj number in a flowing Therese?7 (1h 4m 26s):Well, it's great. Actually, it's wild. I actually broke into the drags in here by doing Nicki Minaj. Right? Like just did wrapper drag, which is very weird to think about, but it's, you know, it's my, my husband talks, we both get interviewed about drag a lot, I think because we're like the theater professionals who are also drag Queens in the city. So we sort of straddle two worlds that are pretty associated, but a bit loosely. And he always talks about how drag is part, part, foot soldier and part court jester of like, like the, you know, the court gesture is the only person who can like make fun of the king without losing his head.7 (1h 5m 9s):And that's why Queens, like people listen to drag Queens, you know, you have Mike time and people will listen. So you really gotta make sure, you know what you have to say. And we take that very seriously. Like as a result, you know, we get hired to do political interviews with candidates running for premier here. Like,1 (1h 5m 28s):Oh,7 (1h 5m 29s):Cause it's just like, because you can, you can sort of penetrate a bit further than if Dave was interviewing someone because there's a certain grand jury and a certain shirt that's so performed, but it, it gives you, it gives you entrance. So1 (1h 5m 46s):Well, gee, do you have any idea? Cause of what goes on in my head when I hear this as like, oh, they should have a television show, like a talk show where they in drag, you know, they, that those characters interview do hard hitting interviews, but as queen, as drag, that'd be great. That'd be fantastic because also what I love, what I love about what you're saying is that the mixture of yeah. Being able to it's so worth humans are so funny. It's like if someone puts on a beautiful costume or a funny costume or a crazy costume or whatever kind of costume, and then asks you a question, there is like even a hard hitting question.1 (1h 6m 27s):There's a, what is it? It softens the blow of reality, I think. And it sort of can be make-believe, but it's not really make-believe, which is what I think is great about that is also reminds me of like Sasha Baron Cohen stuff, which is where if you put on a character, you can sort of get away with a lot of shit. And also you can pinpoint in without people taking you too seriously. And so when someone's not taking you so seriously, they're apt to actually tell you the truth more Like, what does it matter? I'm just talking, I'm just talking to these Queens. Like there's, it's so fun. It's so fun.1 (1h 7m 8s):And then all of a sudden they're dropping these serious. Now they're getting into serious stuff. And you're like, oh, like when I watched stuff like Sasha Baron Cohen, I'm Baron Cohen. I'm like, oh, oh my God, this is so intense and deep. And yet I don't really feel like I'm going to go off the deep end because it's under this guise of quote font. Right. It's like, whoa, it's real deep. It's like a real deep, it's like a real multi-layered. So I, I love this idea that you interviewed. Do you work as a team?7 (1h 7m 37s):Yeah, quite, quite a bit. Not always, but, but quite a bit. We do everything to, I mean, we, we run a company together. We raise a kid together. We do drag together. He directs the plays. Most of the plays that I write.2 (1h 7m 50s):And so you haven't been performing, but I just saw on your Instagram that it's you're reopened and you're, you've got to show up or coming up soon.7 (1h 8m 1s):Yeah. So I, so, so my husband runs a company called ZZ theater and I, which I have worked with and for, for 14 years. And so ZZ is doing its first show in its first live show. In two years, we did a full season during pandemic, which, you know, great. I'm glad we did it. And we were able to employ a lot of artists, but it's not, it's not what we're designed to do. Right. We're we're theater artists, so we're not filmmakers. So it's really exciting there that we're, it we're in rehearsal right now. But then about five months ago I started a new job. So I'm the artistic, the courts of second managing director of the children's theater here in Vancouver.7 (1h 8m 42s):And so we just opened our first show in two years yesterday and1 (1h 8m 48s):Oh, congratulations. What how'd it go? What are you doing?7 (1h 8m 51s):It went really well. I mean, yeah, it's, it's a show called Groth. It's a sort of a, an adaptation of the three Billy goats gruff. That's, that's really actually like quite beautiful and timely because it really deals with, with immigration and displacement and like who, who does or does not deserve to be in a place that has resource it's really, but, you know, but in like in a, in a whimsical digestible musical piece for kids, so that's really exciting.1 (1h 9m 29s):And then my other question is can you mix kids theater and drag?7 (1h 9m 32s):Oh, we do. Yeah. I mean, we do a lot of drag queen story time, but also the children's festival here in Vancouver commissioned our company ZZ a couple years ago to create a drag show for kids, which we perform with our son. Just the three of us.2 (1h 9m 50s):Oh, he performed.7 (1h 9m 53s):Yeah.2 (1h 9m 53s):Wow. Amazing.7 (1h 9m 55s):Yeah. The first time we did it, he was, I mean, he was like a year and a half. So he, you know, he, he was basically acute prop, you know, like he like the Simba reveal in lion king. He was the lion, right. Like genuinely in the show. And we're about to do, they sort of recommissioned the show because of course, you know, we did the show and then in 2020, we'd been booked to tour that show to every children's festival in Canada. And then clearly we all know if that didn't happen.1 (1h 10m 26s):Right.7 (1h 10m 26s):So the festival has actually recommissioned the show now because it's very different doing a show with a four year old because he like, he's like, I want my own numbers. We're like, okay. But let's figure

Intro: Should we take offense that it's Women's History month? (history has not exactly honored women.) Gina had a rough re-entry from vacation, the Disney enchantment, the expense of having kids, the pleasures of one on one time, Junipero Serra was also a monster, Whitey Bulger, networking. Let Me Run This By You: Is Drag Race sexist?, Sasha Velour,  Interview: We talk to Rebecca Spence about Hendrix College, Phantom of the Opera with Linda Eder, Ricky Schroeder and Silver Spoons, Erin Gray, taking the Christmas pageant quite seriously, Syler Thomas, being the preacher's daughter, playing Adelaide in Guys and Dolls and the Stage Manager in Our Town, Tisch, Zelda Fichandler, Mary Beth Fisher, Carmen Roman, Deanna Dunagan, Ora Jones, Amy Morton, Steppenwolf, Goodman Theatre, Every Brilliant Thing, Cyrano at Milwaukee Rep, beauty privilege, aging as an actress, Linda Evangelista, how Rebecca sees herself in terms of the cultural shift in American theatre, the accessibility benefit of digital theatre.FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):2 (10s):And I'm Gina Pulice. We went to theater school1 (12s):Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand.2 (15s):And it's 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all.1 (22s):And you will too. Are we famous yet? February one, one month behind my friend one month by,2 (37s):Well, it's March 1st happy women's history month.1 (41s):I didn't even know that's how bad of a woman I am.2 (45s):Oh, well I was just thinking like, should we take offense that it's, you know, black history and women's history, like it's all in the past, you know, like why with both of those groups of people, we don't really want to be in the past.1 (1m 2s):Oh. And in fact there is a t-shirt that says that people love that. I have the same thought that says the future. Wait, the future of film is female. And I'm like, what about the present of film?2 (1m 17s):Right, right. Write1 (1m 19s):About like, I don't have a lot of time. I'm 46. Like what are you talking about the future? I mean, I can't be talking about the future. So I, I think the more we can get things in the present, the better off we are,2 (1m 33s):The better off we are now you're back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I'm back. I did not want to come back. I did not leave my vacation. I did not wanna leave 80 degree weather and no responsibilities and fun all day. And it was our, a free entry1 (1m 53s):Monday, really? For everybody, just2 (1m 55s):You or well, for everybody. But for my part, it was getting in on a very late plane, not getting home till one 30 in the morning. It's two inches of ice on my driveway. So I'm like doing slapstick, trying to get my luggage to my door. My daughter's asleep. Oh my, I took the wrong key. I didn't have the right. I didn't have my house key. I don't know what the key is that I took. And so luckily, I mean, I guess I, nobody knows my address, but luckily we have a door that we often leave unlocked and it was unlocked.2 (2m 45s):So we got in and I got my daughter upstairs and I said, just go to sleep. I'll take care of everything. And she was like, yeah, of course, of course. I'm like, I'm not taking care of anything right now. So I remembered that we had some snow melt. I smelled, I go get it. And of course, when I walked into this door, that's usually unlocked. I immediately locked it saying like, we really shouldn't be leaving this open all the time. Oh my God. I know what's coming. I think, keep going, keep going though. And then I get my little ice smell and I go to the back and I closed the door because it's 20 degrees. And I don't want to let all the more mare out. And I happily salt my steps and get the luggage and bring it back up.2 (3m 30s):And the door was locked because the door was locked and I still don't have a key. And that my daughter is fast asleep. And not only is she slowly, I've already turned on the white noise machine. So if I ring the doorbell, if I had any chance of her hearing me, which it's pretty scant. And in any case, because she's a heavy sleeper, I've now masked the sound and it's cold, it's cold. And you, I immediately would be like, I have to eat this ice melt. That's not sane. That did not occur to me. Here's what occurred to me. I'm wearing leggings a t-shirt and a thin sweatshirt because I was just in 80 degree weather and sneakers.2 (4m 12s):I have no hat. I have no code. I have no gloves. I don't even have a key to the car. That's in the driveway because it's my husband's car. And why would I have a key to that? And we do have a garage code that has been broken for like a year. So I guess I should fix that for next time. I'm in this situation. Yeah. And I just tried ringing the doorbell and I tried yelling her name, you know, from down to like I'm in Romeo and Juliet, just yelling up to her window to the family in Utah. They weren't back. Oh my God.2 (4m 55s):I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? Walk to my neighbors at two in the morning and, and do what use, oh, and I didn't mind my phone was inside of, oh my God. Even if I had my phone, what am I going to do? Call my daughter. She doesn't have a cellphone. So I was in a real quandary. I was, I was in a pickle. So here's what I'd come to. I'm going to throw a heavy Boulder through our glass door so that I could get in. And then I'm going to tape it up with cardboard because I must get inside of my house. And then I remembered that another security breach we have is that our window in our dining room that goes directly onto our porch is never locked and very easy to climb through.2 (5m 43s):So that's what I did. And I didn't get to sleep until 3:00 AM. And that's just, that was just like, that was just, of course that was my reentry. Like there could have been no other reentry because ending your vacation sucks, sucks,1 (5m 60s):Bad. It2 (6m 0s):Really sucks. The greatest period of time is like the two weeks before your vacation, when you're getting psyched and then your vacation. And then for me, about two days before it's over, I'm like, oh God, I have to go.1 (6m 12s):I, I, I mean, you know, we're, I am really bad at transitions. Like I remember as an actor being told that to like, and I remember thinking that, and I remember thinking that's perfect. Like that, that makes perfect sense. I'm not shocked. And it makes perfect sense. I, there were no transitions in my childhood. It was like, you're being thrown here and then you're being thrown it. And so this all makes sense. And also it to be fair, your vacation did look fucking brilliant.2 (6m 43s):Like my vacation was like a1 (6m 46s):Dream.2 (6m 47s):It was like a dream come true. Honestly, like I kept being like, why is this so amazing? And I, I do. I do think, I, I think I understand now why Disney has the stranglehold on everybody's wallets that it does. It's because for many people, it is a place where your childhood is openly defended and encouraged and people don't get that. You know, and most people don't get that in other realms of their life. And you know, there's a lot of adult, only groups of people at Disney.2 (7m 28s):Like I even read a review of our hotel that was complaining about the number of children there. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's called the all star movies. It's like the it's 101 Dalmatian themed and toy story and Fantasia. And I'm thinking, wow, this couple went here thinking, oh,1 (7m 50s):People visionary tear like they without no, no, no. There are. Yeah, no, you're right on eighties. I think you've really, really hit the nail on the head. When you said that it's people's childhood encouraged, like, are you kidding me? Like senior pictures. I was like, oh, I'm going there. And I don't care if I go alone. Like, I don't give a fuck. You're going to see me alone. Wandering through Disneyland. Happy as a fucking clam.2 (8m 19s):Do you like rollercoasters? No. Oh, you don't like roller coasters. I was going to say, well, let's go together because I didn't get to ride one single roller coaster.1 (8m 25s):I will go with you. I would go if I trusted the person, I'm always just like, because I'm so neurotic. I'm like, do I want to die with this person? If I'm with some weird, like, you know, whatever. No I would go with you.2 (8m 40s):Well, let me tell you that. I don't know when the last time you went to like a six flags was, but the difference between your run of the mill amusement park and Disney is like the difference between coach on spirit, airline and first class Emirates. Yeah, exactly. It's just, they really, they really curate the experience for you. And I'm so fascinated by all of the work that has gone into just that, like all of the work that has gone into, and we, we had a classmate at the theater school who worked at Disney before she went to theater school and I'm drawing a blank on her name, blonde blonde hair.2 (9m 23s):And she told us about some of the rules. They have rules about how long your fingernails could be. And they had rules about your earrings and they had rules. I think some of those rules have changed because I'm pretty sure you didn't used to be able to show tattoos. I think you couldn't have dreadlocks before. Like it was a whole thing. It was a whole thing. So, so they've put a lot of effort into preserving the magic, right? Like you can't, there's this underground tunnel system. So you don't see the characters in there. Cause my daughter kept saying, oh, it was so sweet. She said, there's this hotel that's right near the park. And she said, why didn't we stay at that hotel? And I said, because it's like $3,000 a night. And she said, oh, I bet that's where the princess is live.2 (10m 7s):And I said, yeah, maybe. And I, and it was, as you recall, we went through this whole Santa's Easter bunny thing and she's she's hip to that. So I didn't challenge her assumption, but a couple of days later she did. And she said, well, they're not really princesses. They're really people who put on princess dresses. So they probably don't live here. I said, yeah, they probably don't. She said, where do I live? And I said, in an apartment, and I just saw the look on her face, like imagining, you know, Ariel living in her studio in like Florida. Right. And I live in Orlando having gone to theater school and then like, what am I doing? But you know what she's doing? She's fucking making dreams come fucking true is what she's done is like, honestly, it's the Lauren's work.2 (10m 53s):I felt like because they have these opportunities for you to meet the princesses, you know? And these people know their characters so well to the point that I can never hear Cinderella, she talks so quietly. I can never hear what she's saying. The, the girl, the woman who plays Rapunzel, that character talked a million miles an hour, she talks a million miles an hour. They read and they just know the ins and outs of their movies, such that they're constantly referencing. Like when, when we met Jasmine, she said, have you seen my monkey?2 (11m 35s):A pu I mean, and Clarissa was like, no, is she around here? Like, we'll, we'll go look for him. They really draw you in to the world. Do they are master storytellers? That's what they are Disney is. And these people, their whole,1 (11m 54s):I know people that go on Disney cruises that are like, I would live on this boat if I could.2 (12m 2s):Yeah, man. It's so enticing. It, it really is. And I, and I found myself being like, okay, this is like a museum product. It's a vacation. Like, but I think it made it harder to leave Mo a lot of times I have to say, especially since having kids, no offense to my kids. A lot of times when I come back from vacations, I'm like so relieved for it to be over because I've had to do so much work. I mean, traveling with one kid, who's pretty, self-sufficient was very easy to put a whole new spin on a family vacation.1 (12m 38s):It's my new thing, which is one-on-one time. So what I noticed in your pictures and social media was that when it's one-on-one time and I just had my niece here, right? Yes. I want to hear all about that. One-on-one time is so much different than family time. And I never had one-on-one time with either of my parents. Not that I really wanted it, but like, it was always trying to force groups or other families with our family. And I think one-on-one time people don't like to do because it's so intimate. And I, and I get that. But I also think when I saw your pictures, what I noticed was a genuine happiness and a knot in your face and your daughter's face, but also like a fun, it looked like fun.1 (13m 27s):And a lot of times when you see family fucking pictures, everyone looks miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, miserable, and it's no one's fault, but that is the jam. It is miserable to be in a group.2 (13m 37s):It is miserable. And actually, as we were walking around, she kept saying, why is that? Dad's screaming at his kid? Like there was a moment where somebody was, I didn't observe it, but there was a baby crying. And how she reported it to me was that this mother told the baby to stop crying. And I said, well, you know, we're not having that experience because you're not a baby. And because we're not all together, but we've had a lot of experiences like that. You know, I'm glad that you don't necessarily think, look at that and say, oh, that's just like our family. But that is just like our family when we're all together,1 (14m 17s):It's a dynamic. So this is my whole, my whole like new way of seeing things. Not new way. But like w what helps me get through situation is like, oh, this is a dynamic problem. It is, it is a energetic, interpersonal problem. It's not one, one person's fault. But like, I now will never, I said to my niece, like, I only want to do one on one time with, with each of you. Great2 (14m 45s):Idea. Great idea. So how did that whole thing1 (14m 47s):Come to be? So I really wanted to, so each I have taken my nephew and my niece, the oldest one on solo trips, right. To two different places. But the youngest has never been, and then the pandemic hit. And so I was like, wait a second. This isn't fair. Not that life is fair, but I like to keep things kind of like, I don't want her being like, what the hell? I'm the youngest? Cause I was the youngest. I get it. So I was like, all right, I want a lease to come out here. But by herself, without my sister, without the kids, without George, like, no, no, no, no, no. Also our place is so small. Only one person could fit in it. Right. So a small person.1 (15m 28s):And so I said to my sister for her 13th birthday, which was Sunday, I want to fly Elise out. And so that's what I did. And she, she had president's day, right? So she, she missed one day of school because me and Mr. Davis school to do something with my sister and at least came and we had a blast one-on-one man, I'm all about trying to help the dynamic, not be unmanageable for myself and for others, but I'm really thinking about myself. Like2 (15m 60s):Probably so appreciated the attention she got. Right. Because I'm sure there's not much opportunity for her to get individual attention.1 (16m 8s):It's not practical. It just doesn't happen. There's so much going on. And you know, and, and so we had a blast. Now look, one thing that I was telling my therapist yesterday, I was like, oh, this is what I realized about children. They're fucking a lot of energy, even one brilliant child, right. That is, is just being a child. That's turning 13, no problems. Still, a lot of energy goes out cause she's, you know, and they're fucking expensive. So I don't care. I mean, I don't, I know nothing about, I know 100th of what the costs would be, but I'm like, oh my God.1 (16m 48s):And we weren't even doing crazy shit. We were so like, for people to say like, oh, a family of four or five can live on 50,000, $50,000. I'm like, are you, I spent like $50,000 in three days that I don't have, what are you talking about?2 (17m 3s):This is why, I mean, I have avoided saying miss in the past, but this is why we make so much money and have nothing. I mean, we have our house, we have a house, we own a house and we own cars. Yeah. But we have nothing else. We have nothing else. We have no savings. We have nothing else because 100% of our money goes to this very expensive thing we've chosen to do, which is1 (17m 28s):Yeah. And, and I have so much, I'm like, oh my God. Just even light. Yeah. Just life. Just not even buying. I mean, we didn't go crazy. We didn't go to Beverly Hills. We're not like living. Okay. So we went to, she got in really late Friday night and we went to, then we slept in a little bit. And then we went to the beach, went to my favorite beach, which is a unibrow beach who I found out was a terrible ruler that killed a lot of indigenous people, which is sad. But anyway, yeah. Paradise, Sarah that bad, bad, bad, bad, bad, man. I thought he was a Franciscan monk. I don't know my okay. I don't know.1 (18m 9s):Anyway. So it was like, oh, you know, he killed a bunch of indigenous people. I'm like, oh, that's great. Anyway. So we went to that beach in long beach, my favorite beach. Cause it's super chill. It's not a scene. It's not like Malibu. It's not like it's like down home. I love long beach. Right. And I also have an affinity to long beach because my ex lived there who passed away. So I like long beach, a lot. I have like special memories of that. And so we did that. We went, we ate like I now, because we moved to the pandemic. I had no reference for good food in my, in my neighborhood, in Pasadena, in LA none. So I was like, all right, we're gonna use this as an opportunity to explore dude, look, it has no, it doesn't hold a candle to Chicago.1 (18m 55s):Cause that's just how, you know, Chicago. I always tell people like Chicago is the best food and you'll die of a heart attack, but like, you'll eat the best food. We found great restaurants that we ate at. We, so we did a lot of eating. We did a lot of walking, walking around. We did some walks, some hikes. She obsessed with my dog Doris. And she was really, really good with her. Like trained her. Like she's really, she and her brother are both really into training dogs. So she did a lot of training with Torres, which I kept up zero. And then I just, I just don't care. And then I just don't, that's the truth. And we just really spent time together talking about life and about, you know, her, her life as a 13 year old and teenage stuff.1 (19m 42s):And, but it was, it was only, it was like she got in Friday night, she was here Saturday, all day, Sunday, all day, Monday, all day. She left Tuesday afternoon. I was so exhausted. I was like, I don't know. I have. So again, I have so much respect for her parents and people who are engaged with their kids. That's what I'll say. Like people who actually are trying to fucking be engaged. It's it's insane. I don't know how anyone has time to do anything else. Let me run this by, You know, I go into my little phases with the content I'm consuming and right now I'm really deep into con reconsider.1 (20m 31s):This is an old love that I kind of got away from drag race. Oh, right. Yeah. And I never had this thought before and I'm not, I don't have a judgment about it really either way. It's truly just a curiosity.2 (20m 47s):Curious to know what your thoughts are. Did you ever watch1 (20m 49s):That show? So I watched it a long time ago when it first came out. Did they remounted like, is there's different incarnations?2 (20m 57s):Yeah. They're on like season 13 or something like that. Yeah.1 (21m 0s):I watched it at the beginning when I also got into project runway and I got into America's next top model and all that stuff. Yeah. I, I, it wasn't my thing. It just didn't, it didn't compel me. Like I wanted it to love it and I, it's not, what is it about me? It is that, or the show. It's not my type of reality show in that. I just don't care enough. It's you know, about fat, like the fashion, the fashion. I, I'm more interested in the psychological component and at least at the beginning, it wasn't a huge part of the show.2 (21m 45s):Yeah. Well, for me it is the clue. Remember on star search when they used to have acting that acting component and it was so boring to watch, you know, because it's just not the same as singing and dancing. Right. Even I, as a little kid was like, this is boring. I didn't want to watch the acting part of star search. So we don't have an acting reality competition show. Drag race is the closest thing we have to because drag is theater, you know, it's creating character it's it's and, and there, the art has elevated to such a degree that the people who are really killing it are doing things that you would not imagine are drag and they're not wearing breastplates and they're not, they're just there.2 (22m 37s):And it's part of this whole concept of gender fluidity, which I'm really interested in. But my, my question is, is it inherently sexist that these men are doing female impersonations, right? Because, and a big part of it is the humor. And I just had this mode of being like, wait, is the fundamental conceit here that we're laughing at men being women, because why would you be a woman when you can be a man? I just, yeah, it may not be. And, and many, many drag artists may be feminists may consider themselves feminist.2 (23m 22s):I think RuPaul is not necessarily a feminist and he's not, he's not necessarily anti-racist. I mean, I think he's problematic in his own way, but it just occurred to me like, what am I laughing at this idea about just being a woman? Are we, are we trivializing? And we're making it frivolous.1 (23m 43s):It's so interesting. Like, I mean, think that it goes, what comes to mind is also like, how do the artists identify? Like, do they identify as, as, as non, you know, non-conforming or, or, or, or how, how did they feel?2 (23m 60s):Right. That's been an interesting evolution in the show actually from the first season. I think they they've had, they had at least one person who through the course of doing, it said, actually, I'm not, I don't really want to do drag. I want to be a woman. I am a woman. There's, there's been that. And I haven't really followed it closely, but there has been some controversy about like, well, if you have a woman, a trans woman on the show, then is it still drag? Right. So there's all these questions. I don't really know where that debate sits at the present moment, but I do know that very many people who consider themselves drag artists don't consider themselves men in any way.1 (24m 43s):So it's like, right. I, so that, that then leads me to be super curious about yes, like can cat it become one. It reminded me of Shakespeare when she experienced time pretending to be women. And it was always, you know, women weren't allowed to be actors or whatever, and they, and they also like, you know, they would make fun in a higher sort of, even a intellectual way. They were making fun of the, the weaker sex, whatever. So, yes, I think there's a part of it that we're just laughing at the horror show that is being a woman. And then the other thing that I was thinking about was I think you're onto something when, if we can transform it from being about that, to being about elevating art too.1 (25m 29s):Like when you said things that you wouldn't that piques my interest, wouldn't consider quote, drag. That is like, where I think we're headed in theater, right?2 (25m 38s):Like, oh yes, we must be. I mean, if we are to survive, we must be headed in that way.1 (25m 44s):Can you give me an example of like what, what you wouldn't consider drag that is like,2 (25m 50s):I got there's this drag artists named Sasha Valore and sh I'm right now, I'm on season. I forget if it's eight or nine, it might be nine. And she Sasha the lore does L well, first of all, and I think he identifies as a man. He does his art is political and intellectual. And he's one of these people who doesn't wear fake breasts. He does, he, what he does is he covers his nipples with pastries and, and, but builds the most beautiful garments around a look around an idea blend.2 (26m 31s):And, and it's rough. What I love is when it's referencing so many different things, when he explains his outfit later, he's like, well, this is a reference to Marlena Dietrich. And this is, this is a reference to, you know, the, how the gay culture in Russia exists because it's, you know, it's illegal to dress in drag there and, and homosexuality is not outright illegal, but it's, you know, obviously not a way that you want to go around presenting yourself. It's just this elevated conversation. I mean, the first time I ever saw actual drag was in Las Vegas at a show, I was a teenager and I couldn't believe I'd never seen it before.2 (27m 15s):I couldn't believe how much this man looked like a woman. And that's what the drag was. It was all about pretty much straight forward, like glamor looking as feminine as possible. And it has just come a long way since then. And now it's about, it's really just about embodying characters.1 (27m 34s):So yeah, you love storytelling. So this is what I'm getting at from the Disney thing. And from this is that you love detailed nuance, researched and referenced storytelling. Totally. That is your jam. So2 (27m 51s):It was my mind when, when all of these disparate things can come together into one cohesive piece of art. That's what I like in plays. That's what I like in books. That's what I like him.1 (28m 1s):So that's really interesting to know. Like, I think also like, yeah, for me, what I like is yes, super detailed, specific thought out things like I remember my favorite thing as a kid was pop-up books that had teeny little hidden parts that you wouldn't expect to have a tab that have it. That was my fucking jam. I was like, that is what I like about television is when there's callbacks or references or little Easter eggs, or like where you're like, oh my God, oh my God. Oh my God. Did you notice that the, you know, like I get into that because it means ultimately that people fucking care what they're doing.1 (28m 45s):Yeah,2 (28m 46s):Yeah, yeah. Oh, yes. That's what really gets you. That people care Today on the podcast we are talking to Rebecca, Rebecca is an actor. And if you live in Chicago and see theater, there's a very good chance that you've seen her on more than one occasion in more than one brilliant star Trek. She also does film and television. She's got actually a television series, 61st street. She's in Candyman, that's out in theaters right now.2 (29m 26s):She was in one of my favorite shows, easy, which featured a lot of great Chicago actors. We didn't really talk about any of that. We talked about her as dying love for Chicago theater and her absolute respect for the actors that make it happen. So please enjoy our with Rebecca Spence3 (29m 52s):Podcast or a voiceover.2 (29m 55s):What's the matter with you? Why don't you get with it podcast or be a professional podcast? It's so easy. Honestly, you just break right into the market. You get tons of downloads. And3 (30m 9s):This is what I hear. It's amazing that I haven't jumped on this bandwagon yet. I don't know.2 (30m 14s):I will say the number, the apex of active podcasts or podcasts that were downloadable in the pandemic was 2 million up from 750,000 before the pandemic.3 (30m 29s):I absolutely2 (30m 30s):Believe it's trending back down because I think people realize like it's kind of a lot of work to maintain something every week. So, you know, we're just hoping to get back into that sweet spot. Maybe even less people will do it and we'll get down to like half a million. So then we'll really have a chance. Anyway, congratulations, Rebecca Spence, you survived theater school. Wait, wait. You're, you're looking, you're looking like you don't agree with me.3 (30m 59s):I, I I'd like to reframe it a little bit. I, I survived a theater major. I did not survive the grad school audition process. I Did not into the theater school.2 (31m 18s):We've often said we should call it. We should really call this. I survived my desire to be famous, whether you became famous or not, you know, like you have to contend with your, with your desire for us,1 (31m 29s):Never went to grad school for you went to undergrad and you got a theater major, and then you, and then you went to you, you auditioned for grad schools and didn't get it. What, how could Rebecca Spence that fucking get into grad school? Are you kidding me?3 (31m 43s):No. What I was doing, I didn't have a clue what I was doing. So I, but I can say that my audition process for grad school is what brought me to Chicago and, and made me fall in love with Chicago. And ultimately helps me choose Chicago as a home base, which is where I've had my education. I, my entire education in theater has been through observing and watching people very, very, very good at what they do. And2 (32m 15s):Just observing or asking people. I mean, you said you didn't know what you were doing when you were auditioning, but3 (32m 21s):Yeah, I went to my, I had, I don't know anything to compare it to. I think I had a great theater experience in, at my tiny little school. We had a three professor department and they were wonderful. I, I looked at some conservatories for undergrad and I just wasn't entirely sure if that was what I wanted to do. Cause I didn't know anything about professional theater, not a thing I grew up in, in, in Texas. I had, I think I saw maybe one professional production.3 (33m 2s):I had a friend whose parents were into musicals and they gifted me with an evening to go see Phantom of the opera with Linda ETR of all people. So I'm like, if you're going to get an experience seeing it, that was great. But I knew I wasn't a musical person. I didn't have that kind of gift. And I didn't know what, like I never had seen regional theater. I had never gone to1 (33m 29s):Like a play3 (33m 30s):Play. No, I think my parents took me to a community college production of glass, menagerie,1 (33m 39s):Light fodder for a child have to say like, what is coming forward for me when you're talking about, you're not the first person to say like a musical with the first introduction to any kind of acting and they get a bad rap, sometimes musicals, but they're a gateway for so many kiddos. It's like magic. I'm like obsessed with musicals now.3 (34m 7s):Yeah. I I'm the youngest of three girls by a large margin. My sisters are nine and 11 years older than I am. And so they would put on plays and then stick me in them. So I was kind of dressed up a lot and they'd be like, go say this. And I would do that. And I've got1 (34m 27s):Actors now. What's that? Are3 (34m 29s):They actors now? Okay. No, not at all. No. We just had very active imaginations. And so I, but I loved it. I, I always wanted to be, I had a very active imagination and, and wanted to, I knew I wanted to act like I, I want it to be on silver spoons. Oh,1 (34m 50s):Well, here we are facing. I always, I always thought that the line was here. We are faced to face a Comella silver spoons. Somehow someone informed me that Kamala, wasn't a real word. You guys. And so I was like, wait, what do you, they were like, what did you just say? They're like, say it again. And they were like, you know, that's not the line, but anyway, you want it to be in silver. Did you want to be on like, Ricky's like sister or anything? Like you just wanted to be in that world?3 (35m 26s):Oh no. I had a whole, I had a whole plot line. Oh yeah, no. I was also going to be adopted into the family. Oh yeah. They were, I, I was also going to be adopted into the family, but then of course we were going to become love interest. Of course it's very twisted. I was, I was quite convinced. I, you know, Aaron Gray was going to be my mother. Oh. I also loved buck Rogers. So it was a big club look, Roger. So I kind of followed Erin gray. I thought she was quite possibly the most glamorous woman I'd ever seen. And that's not true.3 (36m 6s):Doris Day was, but I wanted to be parented by1 (36m 13s):Yes. I mean, that's like me and like my modern day telling Brian Cox, I wanted him to be my new father. Right. And that didn't, he was like, people have told me that before. It was actually, it's a real thing. So like, okay, so you, you want it to be that. And then how did that translate Rebecca into like actually studying it? Because like, how did you know? It was a thing3 (36m 37s):I started doing a lot of plays in church. I did a lot of church. Like I was married about 12 times. It feels like, and I remember taking, I remember my like little, my first like actual play. I remember, I think I had been four and I was married and I took it really seriously. And the little boy who was playing Joseph, who also happened to be named Joey was not taking it seriously. And he kept taking his little robe and throwing it over his head. And I remember being livid, absolutely livid. I just was, I was so disappointed because I really felt like I was giving off as many, like holy maternal vibes as I possibly could.3 (37m 26s):And he, he wasn't up to the task.1 (37m 28s):Did you find it, did he get fired or like, did he get recast recast?3 (37m 33s):I I, no. No, no. I mean, my memory is being up in front of the, I don't remember any group kind of rehearsal process. I just remember being up there and holding my little baby doll and feeling very pious Over. And Joey was like screwing with a shepherd.1 (37m 54s):That's fantastic. I am Joey, by the way, I would be the Joey. I'd be like doing dance moves and they'd be like this one, but here's the thing3 (38m 3s):Laughing. And that's why it was because people were laughing and they, you know, he was drawing attention and laughing. And I was like, I don't remember this being a comedy. This is a comment1 (38m 19s):Here's, what's interesting about that story for me is that you w I've never worked with you as an actor, but I know from being around you and seeing you work, that you are not enough, and this is not, well, I'll just say it like, you are like a consummate per actor. Like you, you take this shit seriously, which I adore, which I actually learned from people like that. But like, you are very kind and lovely, but you also are a fucking professional actor. And there is like, I know that sounds so obvious, but you know what I mean? Like there are people like Joey that fuck around at age four, which is fine. He's four. But like the fact that you didn't fuck around as Mary at age four, I think is actually an important thing in your, in your history because you take this shit seriously.1 (39m 7s):Also. You're like you work all the time, which is fantastic, which I don't think there's a coincidence there. That's all I'm saying. That's all. Yeah.3 (39m 19s):Thank you. I mean, I knew I wanted to do, I played a lot alone. I mean, I was alone all the time. So I was constantly like perfecting different personalities. I mean, because I moved as much as I did, we moved every two and a half to three years. I had like an opportunity to like, be put into different scenarios. And that was just like a playground for me to, to, well, first of all, it was survival. It was trying to figure out where am I? How do I fit in? How do I make friends? What what's like that group of people doing and how do I sort of evolve and adapt. So that they'll speak to me.1 (39m 57s):Did you move because of your family? Were you a military situation?3 (40m 2s):God's military? My, my father was an Episcopal priest, tiny segue. I listened to your podcasts and I'm the one that, that I just delighted and was listening to Siler. Thomas. I knew Siler Thomas from church camp. I had no idea Seiler Thomas. Wasn't cool. We, I grew up sort of adjacent to, to him. He's older than I am. So he was in a much like cooler hipper, older church crap. And, but we went to like all of the same, like regional functional things.3 (40m 47s):Cause my father was an Episcopal priest. And so he was very active in youth stuff. And so I went with him. That's how I know Seiler camp counselor. And I was a camper and I had no clue that he was a theater person. No, I can't2 (41m 5s):Wait to tell him. I can't wait to tell him3 (41m 7s):We reconnected sort of over Facebook, but I haven't seen him, but I listened to his entire podcast and I, I, I got really, I got really excited.2 (41m 15s):Yeah. Yeah. He's, he's fantastic. What I would have done if I had to move every couple of years is I would have pretended that I was British. When I came to a new school. Did you ever adopt new, like a really different3 (41m 31s):Personality? No, I couldn't. We were always sort of presented, like we were kind of presented as a family so that wouldn't have ever worked out for me. I did have a friend though in the sixth grade, my friend, Susan. And it was the first time we in, I was in Waco, Texas, and we went to all the sixth graders, went to one school for me, entire city were busted into a sixth grade center and we would rotate classes and she, and I would come up with like each class that we were in. We would have completely different personalities. We would like today where the really loud Rawkus girls and today were very shy and reserved, but today where the pranksters.3 (42m 17s):And1 (42m 18s):So you did go to theater school cause that's all we did. So there2 (42m 23s):Starting at four years old, you started your year to school3 (42m 25s):Training.2 (42m 28s):Yeah. So when you finally, when it was time for college, you were considering conservatories, but decided not to. How did you pick the school that you went to Hendrix?3 (42m 41s):I picked Hendricks because they had a theater program and my parents said that I had to be within a day's drive. And so they said, we can, you can go to school, but we have to be able to be able to drive to you within 12 hours, if anything happens. So I went 10 and a half hours away to two Hendricks college in Arkansas and had a pretty campus. And I, I knew, I, I knew I wanted to do theater. I had started doing more professional place, not professional, but, but really high quality plays in high school.3 (43m 21s):And I knew that I wanted to keep doing that. I really loved it. I just sort of disappeared into that. And that was, that was a safe way to build quick family, you know, do you found your people really fast? And I, I, that, that felt good to me. So I really enjoyed it. And2 (43m 41s):Were they known for having a great theater department?3 (43m 45s):No, but they built, so I did my freshman year, we moved in the middle of my eighth grade year and I had one freshman year in a, in a really small, small town in Southeast Texas or S yeah, it was near the coast and that didn't, that didn't go so well for me. And I ended up being sent to boarding school.1 (44m 13s):What did you do? Were you depressed?3 (44m 15s):Very poor choices and trying to, in trying to, to fit in, what is it,1 (44m 21s):Does that mean? What does that mean? Did you smoke cigarettes or like kill people? What happened like3 (44m 27s):In the middle? No, I, I had some substance stuff happened. I found the substances are pretty early in like, like an eighth grade. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no. I mean, we, we lived in the town that I lived in was known for grass farming and rodeo, and we didn't have anything to do. There was no, there was no movie theater. We didn't have a Walmart. We didn't have a skating rink there. It was,1 (44m 57s):It's like Footloose the toast.3 (44m 60s):So what we did is we went out to fields and drank like, that's true. That was what you did. So I, I, I wanted to do that. So I drank a lot and then I got caught a lot. And so my parents had a panic and sent me to boarding school in Austin, which they had a, really a growing theater department. And by the time I graduated, they had built this huge complex. So my senior year was the first year they sort of became an art school. So I kind of said goodbye. I mean, our first production was like, I remember they flew in some flats from Las Vegas.3 (45m 42s):I want to say we did guys and dolls, but we had like actual professional flats. And it was like my senior year. I was like, oh my God1 (45m 51s):Star, were you the star Rebecca? I was3 (45m 53s):Adelaide Adelaide. And then I got to be the stage manager in our town. So that was, but of course I, I didn't know what that meant. I wanted to be Emily,1 (46m 5s):Emily, of course. And then there were3 (46m 7s):Like stage manager and I was like, what? I'm stage managing the play? Like, I clearly hadn't read the whole play. I just read what I was like. I didn't know that that meant I had more to do. And it ended up being like a really, really meaningful, beautiful experience.2 (46m 24s):And just getting back to like the making. Cause I, I really love talking about making bad decisions. Would you say that you kind of did the, there is a trope of a preacher's daughter getting in to trouble? Is that what happened to you? Yeah, it was a rebellion against,3 (46m 43s):I mean, I, I just, you know, is there either the really, really good girl or the really, really bad girl and I, I, I didn't want to be the really, really,1 (46m 56s):Really hard position to be like, I can't imagine, like, even if your parents are like the nicest people there, again, there's a status thing that happens when there's someone in the community is touted as a certain thing. Like it's like royalty a little bit in America. Like we don't have, you know, so it's like you it's like, and then you're expected to behave a certain way. And as much as I had, like, I would say very little care and guidance in some ways I also didn't have a lot of pressure to be a certain way because we were all just like, there was no title. Like my parents didn't do anything. So it's, it's a tricky situation. But what I'm, what I'm also noticing is that the, the poor decision making and the drinking and they're getting caught actually was, it led to some really good fucking theater like that.1 (47m 46s):You went to Austin and you got to do like really good acting work. So it worked. I mean, you know, it wasn't a, it wasn't an all a bad thing. So you were like, yes,3 (47m 58s):I have learned more from my, my failures than I have ever learned from my successes. And I've had a lot of failures. I've had a lot of,1 (48m 8s):You know, something that I can speak to from being in like an insider in Chicago or formerly, and now in California, but being at a Chicago actor is like, everybody, I want to talk about the pressure in Chicago. So you are one of those people in Chicago that everyone's like, oh, Rebecca Spence books, everything. And I know it's not, I listen. I'm not saying it's true. This is what I'm saying. Let's get to the heart of the thing that I want to ask, which is from being on the I'm now on the outside looking in. Right. So what is it like? Cause that's always something that I heard and it has actually very little to do with you with other people's shit.1 (48m 48s):Right? It's not, I'm not saying you are doing anything, but what I'm asking as a woman and a performer, what is it like? And it's easy for me to do now because I'm in LA. So I don't give a, you know, like it's like, what does it feel like to have that kind of pressure of people, first of all, are you aware of it? That people are like Rebecca spins, books, everything. And then how does that affect you? And do you want to tell them to go fuck off? Or are you like, I work really hard.3 (49m 14s):Well, this, if this I'll take it two steps back, because this is a Testament to how much I, I love and admire Chicago theater. My understanding, I, I didn't get into theater school because I sabotage my auditions because I didn't know what kind of an actor I wanted to be. I actually, I choked. I freaked out because I thought that if you wanted to be an actor that meant that you wanted to be famous. And, and so I went to NYU, I came to Chicago to audition for theater school that I did the errata and auditioned for NYU Tisch.3 (49m 56s):And then I crashed the Harvard art. I didn't know you could crash. And somebody said you did. So I just got in line and I crashed the Harvard auditions. I made it to the final rounds of, of Tish. And I flew to New York and had a solid panic attack. I just, I didn't know anything about New York. I had, I came from tiny town in Texas. I had never been to Chicago. I had never been to New York. I didn't have a smartphone. I didn't know how to get around. I, I met Zelda. I met, you know, I did all the stuff. I was like, I can't afford this. I don't, I don't know what this is. I don't know what I'm doing. And I, I P I straight up chokes and, and really sabotage my own audition.3 (50m 40s):But I liked Chicago and my husband got a job here and we moved here and then somebody said, you know, I needed to find a job. I didn't even know. They were like, what about the Goodman theater? And I, I was like, I don't even know what that is. And I didn't know what, like actual regional theater was. And I ended up getting a job in development at, at the Goodman theater, because I was too scared to act. Cause I thought I don't actually know what I'm doing. I didn't know how to do like prepare a monologue very well. I had done that my senior year in college. Like we prepared one monologue. I didn't know like how to go through that whole process. But I started working at the Goodman. I started watching, I saw Chicago actors come on stage.3 (51m 24s):And it was people like Mary Beth Fisher, people like Carmen, Roman people like Deanna Dunnigan. Like people, people like Ora Jones. Like that was when I started hearing when they were like, oh, oh, oh my God. Or Jones is going to be on say, oh my God, Amy Morton. I'm like, who wait, who are these people who wait, who are these people? And like, people that I started hanging out like the theater crowd, when they started speaking about these people and their work ethic, I was like, that's what I want. I want to be a well-respected name in a medium sized town.3 (52m 5s):That's that to me is how I know I've made it. If people are like, oh, oh, we want to go see that show because I guarantee you, you're going to see someone who has put in the time, put in the effort, they're going to bring nuance. They're going to bring, you know, a craft to it. That was my goal. That's. And so when I hear that, there's part of me, that's like, I still don't know what I'm doing, but the little ego part in the back of my brain is like, it's what we've always wanted.1 (52m 38s):Yeah, no.3 (52m 39s):I wanted to be a respected actor in a town that who, whose work? I respect so much. I fucking love Chicago actors. And I love Chicago theater. I don't think there's any better theater in the country. I think that, that the work ethic and the quality of people that go in and do the work and bring, bring their hearts and their souls to it. That's all I've ever wanted to be a part of. So when you say, when you're like, oh, she works all the time. I'm like, I, I, I don't, I mean, I do work, but there's part of me. It's like, oh my God, maybe we're doing it. Maybe1 (53m 17s):I can tell you right now, Rebecca Spence, that you are doing the thing. Because when I saw you in, what was it? Every brilliant thing is that the, It was, it was beautiful. And when I saw it, I was like, oh yeah, this is why she, she books. She works all the time. It's all relative. Right. But that thing of she works all the time. But like, this is why it actually is because you're good at what you do. And you're also, like you said, you actually really care about the thing we were talking about. Caring, like Disney really cares how they take care of their parks. Like, that's a, that's a segue, but like, that's the, the point is that you, you, the care that you put into your, your art is very desirable, right?1 (54m 5s):Like people want to work with that. And I think in Chicago, there is this sense of, we're just sometimes we're just there to make it to the next place. But what it sounds like for you is like, this is your place3 (54m 18s):I'm here. Like this is, I have no desire to move to New York. I have no desire to move. I'm doing exactly what I always like. I'm doing more than I ever thought I ever hoped that I could do.2 (54m 33s):Like, wow.1 (54m 34s):I mean,3 (54m 35s):I ever thought that I hook could hope to do so. I am. I'm always really grateful because I,2 (54m 46s):Yeah, honestly, I, I really think that more people could stand to do that, to have as their goal. You know what, one of the things that has come out of this glut of information put out us all the time is this concept of like exceptionalism and that you only really hear reflected or, or echoed or amplified stories of people who are exceptional. People who make millions of dollars or people who, whatever graduate Harvard when they're 10 years old. And it, one of the casualties of it is that I think people who are forming their identities don't necessarily get enough examples of people who are achieving anything in the middle, you know, any kind of other success.2 (55m 36s):And, and we know how much these extreme successes lead to like tragedy. In a lot of cases, we'd be doing ourselves a favor. If we could put more stories of like, I aimed for this thing, that is not the, you know, the outer limit, but is, you know, difficult to do, but was obtainable for me. I think that would be,1 (55m 57s):I think it's so good. And I think that the, the also the, the irony or whatever it is is that now you, you, in terms of, in terms of film and television, you do book that work too, but it's not because your it's like you, that was your goal. And, and all this theater stuff is just sort of there it's like that work comes because of the, what you have done build the platform. And I think Gina, what you're speaking about is nobody's building the fucking platform on which to stand. So it's like all of a sudden, they're just catapulted on this platform at the top of the sky, and there's nowhere to go, but fall. Right. So you've done the work to build the platform, Rebecca.1 (56m 40s):And I think that that's, that's rare that doesn't happen. And I think that's fricking amazing because you have something to stand on. You're not like floating in LA like on a pedestal about,3 (56m 53s):I wouldn't do well in LA. I don't think I, I don't think I would do well there. I could maybe hang out in New York, but I don't think LA would, I liked LA. I went out there for just a brief moment just to see what it felt like. And people are like, oh, you're going to love it, or you're going to hate it. And I didn't feel either way. I, I liked it. I mean, I, I, wasn't responsible for living there and getting rent, paying rent. I was staying in a friend's pool house. And so I had a place to live for a month and I had one audition. So I hiked, it did a lot of hiking, which was great. And I found little pockets there, but I've thought, I don't think I could live in a town that is just constantly cycling around one industry.3 (57m 41s):And that was kind of how I've always operated. I didn't want to go to a conservatory because I was like, there's way more to me than just acting like, I, I love, I, I like, I love what I do it's but it's not the only thing that drives me. Like I like theater and acting is, is the thing that I love most, most of all, but I really there, I love Chicago, so there's so much more to do than just2 (58m 10s):So true. So I keep thinking about a little Rebecca and little Joey, we've heard a lot of stories about people who, when they were in college, feeling resentful about P other people who they felt like didn't take it seriously enough people, you know, like a common thing is a person who had to work really hard to get a full ride because they couldn't have afforded it to go to college otherwise. And then to be there with people who are partying instead of, you know, spending a hundred percent of their time dedicated to what they're doing. Does that come up for you now working on something now, do you encounter people who you feel maybe aren't fully appreciating the opportunity they're being given or, or at this level now, are you mostly with people who take it very seriously to,3 (59m 3s):Yeah, I haven't had that. And I mean, most of the people that I work with are really just so excited to be in the room. I mean, I, I, I th I can think of one instance when I was doing non-equity theater in a basement somewhere for, for, I was the only female in the entire, in the entire production, like cast, crew, everything. It was, it was me. And it was a bunch of guys that were kind of jerking around a little bit and it affected, it was like a really serious play.3 (59m 45s):And I remember one of them pulled up a pretty, I don't want to say dangerous, dangerous is too extreme of a term, but it was a play. It was days of wine and roses, which was, and you know, where I have to, the character ends up drink in some, but they, they changed the bottle and put actual alcohol in it onstage, and didn't tell me. And so I chugged and had like a thing of alcohol and I was like, and nobody would fess up to it. Like nobody who did, who did it? Y'all who did that? Just like tell me, and no one would, would, would fess up to it.3 (1h 0m 26s):And then I was like, this sucks. Yeah. That's actually, that's the only time I can think of when I was like, I'm, I'm putting my heart and soul into it for the most part. No, I've never, I thought, what about upset or like, is everyone you're working with really like, to joke around too. I mean, I, yeah, what I do on stage, I take very silly, but I love to play. I'm a prankster. I liked to, I I'm very silly. I like to be silly. I, I love people that are having a fantastic time. And when I know that it's not like messing up somebody else's process I'll jump right in.3 (1h 1m 7s):Cause I, I like it. So I haven't had any, what's a, what's a favorite project. Gosh, there've been, there've been a lot. I did a production of a three person Cyrano up at Milwaukee rep and it was the first time I'd ever left Chicago. And we did a three person version of, of Cyrano where we did made all of the sound effects ourselves.3 (1h 1m 49s):And so we switched characters and jumped and I had never done anything like that of like sort of it wasn't devised, but it, it, it was much more deconstructed than anything that I had ever been a part of. And it was, and we toured it. We toured it all around Wisconsin and into Minnesota and I'd, I'd never done it. I'd never done summer stock. I had never done anything like that. And we were this little Merry band of three, plus our manager in a, in a van driving all over making, you know, I was, we would do the sword fights and I would, I would use the foils and make all the sound effects and sheets.3 (1h 2m 30s):And I just thought that was, it was, it was a great time. I love it.1 (1h 2m 34s):Why did you love it? Like what, what you just love doing the like, cause it was the first time you did it or like what was the feeling that you were like, this is fucking awesome. Wow.3 (1h 2m 44s):Creative thing. And we surprise so many people because we made like the set was made out of ladders and like we would make the set and I love surprising the audience cause they would come in, they'd be like, what the, what is this? Like, are you like, oh God, we're gonna watch people like create out of boxes. See it, like, you're going to take me on one of these like craft paper theater projects and what am I getting myself into? And with just like a little thing of twinkle lights and we, and I was working with these two phenomenal actors, Reese, Madigan, and Ted Daisy, who work at Milwaukee rep all the time out and, and Oregon Shakespeare.3 (1h 3m 25s):And they do a lot of Oregon Shakespeare work. And we just played, we played in, played in, played in plate. It was, it was playing. And yet then we would have these like gut punch moments and it, I had just never done anything like that. I had always been put in sort of very traditional roles and nobody usually allowed me to step outside of those boxes. And I, I did it and had such, such a good time doing it.1 (1h 3m 53s):That leads me to my question about beauty. Okay. So I'm obsessed with this idea of beauty as, as a, as it relates to how people that are, are how we relate to our own beauty or feeling lack thereof or so, you know, you, I would say for me, you like a stunning, stunning woman. And, and I would like to know what is your relationship like? I mean, it's a very, it's a very intense question, but I am obsessed with it. What is your relationship like to your own idea of your beauty? Because people, because what you said, really trait triggered something in me of like people usually put me in these traditional roles, which to me means like beautiful wife, a beautiful mother, a girlfriend, a blah.1 (1h 4m 46s):And as you age, like talk all about that because people will say like Rebecca Spence is gorgeous and I agree and I want to know what is it like? And I guess it's sort of hard if you're the fish in the water, but like tell me, what's your relationship like to the way your own looks?3 (1h 5m 2s):Sure. You know, I, I, I fully acknowledged that I've had duty privilege. Like I've fully acknowledged that that has been a part of my progress. And you know, it has been something that has put me in roles. Like I was never the ingenue ever. I was never the Juliet. I was always the lady capital. I was always, cause I had always had a lower register and I always looked mature. I had a very classic features. And so I was always like lady Croom, lady Capulets.3 (1h 5m 43s):I was always like the bitter aunt. And it's kind of, I was Jean Brody, you know, like I got to, to have these sort of larger power play or things, which I always wanted. I wanted to play more powerful than I wanted to play pretty because I knew that I was always viewed as such. And you know, it's, I know that I've been allowed into a lot of rooms because of how I look. I think maybe that's why my drive is so strong because I want to back it up.3 (1h 6m 24s):Like I don't, it's very important to me that I bring work ethic and integrity and talent to, to, to that so that as I age and as I grow and as this goes away or transforms and evolves that I'm leaning more on, on, on the thing behind it. And, and aging as, as someone who is it's real, like it's, it's a real ego check when you were always called in for the beautiful wife and now you're starting to be called in for, you know, other roles.3 (1h 7m 11s):And, and this isn't a it's I know how it sounds like I always like know and feel1 (1h 7m 18s):No, no, no, no. Here's the thing. You're the one, you're the first person that we've talked to that we've said like, Hey, like I remember we interviewed someone and Gina brought this up to someone and was like, you're very beautiful. Like, what's it like to, and the person could not acknowledge that they, because they were, I think, I don't know what was going on. I assume they were afraid to sound vain, but here's the thing. It doesn't sound any kind of way. What sounds, what it sounds is like, you're trying to make sense of the way the world sees you, which actually isn't about you either. It's like, and yet acknowledge the privilege.1 (1h 8m 0s):So you're the first woman that we've talked to that has said, yeah, like I acknowledged like this got me into rooms, but I want to back it up instead of pretending that it doesn't exist. Right. Because,3 (1h 8m 12s):Because for anybody to lie, I, you know, I remember being, I remember being in a room and I was like, I was like, you're beautiful. And she was like, oh, I just am fat. And I'm like, come on. You know, I was like, come on, don't do it. Like it doesn't, it's, it's, it's so insulting to people that, that, that, that, like, let's be the thing I've tried to do is truly be objective about my work and, and who I like to. So you have to be objective about, like, I know what I look like. I know what I bring in, so what else do I add to it?3 (1h 8m 52s):And I it's something that I will never forget because, and after that, I know when we were very young, who is doing really, really well right now, and she is, you know, a self identified fat actress and like that, that is how she works in the world. And it's, she's, she's just phenomenal. But she was the daughter of a, of a beauty queen. Like her mother was a beautiful, beautiful woman. And she was like having to grow up with, you know, under, under someone that was beautiful. She's like I had to watch watching her age was one of the most painful things I could have ever witnessed because she was so used to being the most beautiful woman in the world, in the room.3 (1h 9m 42s):Like that was her identity was she didn't have to do too much else because she was the most beautiful woman in the room. And when she aged and those things started to fade it, she had sort of lost her identity. And that, that conversation has stuck with me for forever. I was like, don't ever be the person that, that your exterior is the only thing you have.2 (1h 10m 4s):Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it's awesome. I think it's fantastic that you acknowledge your beauty privilege, but I also acknowledge that there is a prison aspect to it too, or certainly when one is young, you know, where you can only be considered, you know, for a certain type of role, it can be just as limiting. And then if you go to that,3 (1h 10m 28s):Because of it, I mean, I I've been told, I lost I've lost roles where something is really, really, really excited about. And they were like, you're too, you are too classically attractive to be relatable. And I was like,2 (1h 10m 45s):Yeah,3 (1h 10m 46s):Being relatable is my jam. Right, right. What I worked so hard to do, I wouldn't be relatable. And I'm, you won't allow me out of that. And then of course, you know, I've got to sit back and I'm like, look, people have to face this kind of feedback on a completely dip. So, you know, I was like, then I mean that it sucked. And I, and I grieved that. I was like, but, but this is this industry that, and other people face that in tote for D for a myriad of different other reasons, they are told based off of how they look that they aren't right for the role. And I, I always knew that, but I was like, God, that sucks.1 (1h 11m 26s):And I'm thinking of like, yeah. And, and,3 (1h 11m 31s):And know it. And you don't want to tell anybody about it because no one, no one's going to be like, oh, that's horrible.1 (1h 11m 37s):Right. Right. I mean, it's this thing of you don't of course you don't want to, but I'm also just aware of like, like, I was obsessed with this whole story of Linda Evangelista who got face surgery, and then she finally showed her face and she looks fucking fine to me. Like, it's not about that. It's not about her face. It was about, it was no, no. I mean, literally it she's. I read the whole thing too. She, she calls herself deformed. She has like some fat that comes up over her bra3 (1h 12m 13s):Solidified. It's hard. Like, oh, that's true. Yeah. It's painful and hard. And,1 (1h 12m 20s):But the thing is like the, it is for me, what, what it brought forward was like from the outside, right outside, looking at Linda Evangelista, she's still one of the most beautiful people I've ever seen with her without her deformity. But it doesn't matter because she is not her identity was this model. Right. Which probably screwed her for life and also offered her privileges beyond my wildest dreams. Both are true. So I guess what it brings forward is like, everything about this journey is a combo fucking platter. You kinda have the privilege of beauty without also being in a prison.1 (1h 13m 1s):You cannot have the privilege of, you know, like for me, I kind of have the compassion that I have for humans. If I had not gone through what I had gone through as a child, especially an overweight child, like gum, it comes together. And I think we're so used to seeing people as, oh, that's Rebecca Spence. This is what she does. And this is how her life, it's not that way. And I think that's one of my life goals is to just show people through my writing and my work. Like this is a fucking combo platter. People like you don't get one way, like Linda Evangelista said, she feels like the most ugly person. And she acknowledged that she was a model and made millions of dollars doing it.1 (1h 13m 42s):So like, it's both, you're both, you're both things I give you permission. I give everyone permission to have both the prison and the privilege. I know it's not my job to do, but that's what I would wish on the world if I was running shit, which I'm not. So there we go. But anyway, that's my rant about you. I just really am focused on like asking women, especially like, what is it like, you know, especially as we get older to like change and it's a real3 (1h 14m 10s):Ego knock, I'm, you know, I'm not going to lie. I, I filmed something recently and I, my son went on, said, took a picture of the monitor and gave it to me. I was like, you know, I was like, oh shit. Okay.

Joined by @Prince.SO2 (instagram) to talk; preparation, combat, hypotheticals and much more fun in fighting!

By now you've heard the term, "natural wine", but isn't all wine natural? WRONG. Because we have no labeling laws for wine, it can be a very unnatural product, as over 72 chemical additions are allowed into wine here by the U.S. federal government. Here are our top 5 reasons why we believe natural wine is indeed a healthier choice for you over conventionally made, mass-produced wine: 1) No pesticides during farming 2) Additive & chemical-free in the cellar 3) No added sugar 4) Little to no added preservatives (SO2) 5) It's better for the environment :) This is the pet nat we drank while taping: *Furlani - Bianco "Alpino" Frizzante (Somewhere high up in the Dolomites of Northern Italy)

Lise møter Mathias Dardeau fra Brutus på Tøyen for å snakke om: hva er naturlig vin, hvorfor er naturlig vin annerledes enn økologisk vin, hva er SO2 og hvorfor vi bør bry oss. Samt en knirkende stol.  Instagram-handles:Lise: @thatnorwegianwineladyMathias: @mathiasdardeauEsaias: @esaias_vinbarBrutus: @brutusogvinBook bord på www.barbrutus.no da vel!Vinen vi drakk heter Bom Bom Cha 2019 og er fra den tjekkiske produsenten Milan Nestarec. 

Let's kick-off 2016 the right way. With another First Friday Q&A episode! We discuss oil and gas bankruptcies, how to get promoted, and Coal vs Natural Gas vs Mark. CLICK HERE TO LISTEN NOW Win an Awesome Red Wing Helicopter Bag! Our sponsor, Red Wing, has provided us with a handful of Oil & Gas Offshore Bags to give away. We're giving one away each week until the end of January. Click here to register for a chance to win yours! Subscribe, Rate, & Review Click Play to Hear #044: Coal vs Natural Gas vs Mark! Click Play to Catch Up on the Last 10 Episodes Many Thanks to Everyone Who Submitted Questions! Zachary Fogelson First off, I am a big fan of the show, been listening for about 6 months now and it has been unbelievably helpful for me in my current job as I am new to the industry. Couple of questions for you and James. Considering that bankruptcies do not mean production will stop for E&Ps (see link), do you think that even if a large number of firms go under we won't see crude prices stabilize? How long can firms remain operational after they go into chapter 11? Name: Undisclosed You guys often mention how much people underestimate the influence the oil & gas industry has on our daily lives and think that the only use of the oil & gas industry is fuel for road transport. What percent of the oil & gas being produced today is needed for purposes other than non-road transport fuel? Jeff King VP-Finance at Channel Energy LLC Good show. I really enjoyed it. But I cringe a bit every time you say the the oil and gas industry solved the US acid rain problem. Most of the SO2 and NOx emissions were from coal fired power plants. And government regulation was the catalyst for change. In 1989, the U.S. Congress passed a series of amendments to the Clean Air Act. Title IV of these amendments established the Acid Rain Program, a cap and trade program that required companies to comply with new regulations and reduce emissions. But that's a nit pick I do really enjoy your show and learn a lot from it. Keep up the good work. Name: Undisclosed In my current role I am a software developer. I would like to remain highly technical but also transition to trading and analysis. What companies would you recommend I look into and what skills are most import for me to demonstrate to potential future employers? Chris, BDM with Premier Chemical Mark, I'm a dedicated listener of the show and I truly prescient the time you guys invest into providing valuable content. I wanted to start by offering some clarification on a story you guys covered about Devon energy acquisitions in episode 41. The acquisition was three parts; the first was Devon's purchase of close to $2 billion worth of assets from Felix energy in the stack play, which is in the sooner trend section of the Anadarko basin in Oklahoma not in the Powder River basin as you guys stated. The second part of Devon's acquisition involved 600 million in assets from an undisclosed third-party; that acquisition was is in the Powder River basin, which is in Montana and Wyoming, not Oklahoma. The part of the deal associated with EnLink was for the a...