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Having ADD or ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Hear from people all around the globe, from every walk of life, in every profession, from Rock Stars to CEOs, from Teachers to Politicians, who have learned how to unlock the gifts of their ADD and ADHD diagnosis, and use it to their personal and professional advantage, to build businesses, become millionaires, or simply better their lives.   I wanna give a shout out to Skylight Frame, the official Skylight frame. They are sponsors of this episode of Faster Than Normal. Let me tell you about Skylight! So I have a daughter, you all know, her name is Jessa, she's nine. Jessa, like any nine year old, doesn't really do what I tell her to do until I say it like 4, 5, 6, 18, 54 times. And the problem with that is that when your ADHD, you're kind of forgetful to begin with. So Jessa sits there and I tell her, Jessa, change Waffles' pee pads, my dog right? [@petersdogwaffle on INSTA] Changes defense. Okay, Dad. And she goes right back to Roblox. And then two times later, Jessa change Waffle's pad? Goes, okay, Dad goes right back to robots. And by the fourth time, I've forgotten about it. She's forgotten about it. Waffle doesn't get his pee pad changed. No one's happy. And the house smells. So Skylight Frame eliminates that. It is a essentially a calendar. It's calendar with pictures. It sits on your wall, it connects to wifi, it connects to your Google calendar, and it adds your chores. So I tell Jessa say, Hey, Jessa before you leave for school, before you get in your iPad to play Roblox, before you go to school, are all your chores done? Are they green on the board? She looks. Now I gotta change Waffles pads. Change the pads, comes back. Click. Not you waffle. I, I know you heard your name, but I'm actually not talking about you. I'm doing, doing a podcast. He click, she clicks on the, click it on the, on the chore, it goes away. When all her chores are done, she gets her iPad, everyone wins. It makes life so much easier. It is unbelievable. It's a 10" inch touchscreen display. It's digital, it's gorgeous. You put all your photos in from your photo album, you can send 'em all there. And when it's not in calendar mode, you get a beautiful display of all the pictures. Totally worth it. And as always, thank you Skylight for sponsoring this episode as well as many others of the Faster Than Normal Podcast.  https://www.skylightframe.com Discount Code:  PeterShankman for 10% off, up to $30 off. Robin Maddox, LMFT, is a pediatric mental health expert with over a decade of hands-on experience following data-driven, evidenced-based strategies to support and heal children, adolescents and families. As Director of Behavioral Health at Clay, a virtual company within early education centers, she has guided the development of an early identification platform that provides a comprehensive suite of behavioral and developmental tools for school communities that serve children ages 0-5.  Prior to Clay, Robin worked as a child and family therapist in her own private practice (Maddox Counseling), and at The Family Institute at Northwestern University. She previously served as Director of Special Education at Notre Dame College Prep, where she created, developed, and implemented a Special Education  Program for students with Down Syndrome, Autism, Cerebral Palsy, Trisomy 13, and other developmental disabilities. Robin also has prior experience as a Director and Executive Board Member for Camp Hope, a summer camp for children and young adults with developmental disabilities. Today we learn… Often with neurodiversity, by the time a therapist is seeing a child, they are pulling them out of the river. A good part of Robin and Clay Behavioral Health's purpose is hiking upstream- to see why so much of our young neurodiverse population is getting thrown into the river in the first place. By intervening and putting good tools in the hands of teachers and parents, we're learning more about our kids, a little earlier in life than before concluded. Today we learn about why and how. Enjoy! 00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 01:52 - Introducing and welcome Robin Maddox  03:30 - What drove you towards special education and towards neurodiversity as a whole? 04:35 - What is Clay? 06:11 - Six short sessions of work with a four-year-old, would take years with the same teenager 06:45 - How a ‘heads-up' about your child, can be almost as effective to parents as a diagnosis 07:30 - It's a GIFT! You don't even have to stand in line for it; just learn how to use it! 07:45 - What if the school says: “We can't test your child until they are six”? 08:36 - You don't have to wait for a diagnosis. Tools are ready and available.  09:04 - How kids feel about themselves? How do they feel about themselves by age 5, at kindergarten? 10:00 - All of the research right now is on how one-third of teenagers have identified as having anxiety or depression. What the research shows is that those kids are showing those signs even at ages 3, 4, 5. 10:40 - What kind of signs should parents be looking for? 11:10 - How do people find out more about you?  Web:  https://carebyclay.com  email: robin@carebyclay.com  Socials:  @carebyclay on Twitter  INSTA  Facebook  and LinkedIN 11:40 - Thank you so much Robin!! 11:45 - We are thrilled that you are here and listening! ADHD and all forms of Neurodiversity are gifts, not curses. And by the way, if you haven't picked up The Boy with the Faster Brain yet, it is on Amazon and it is a number one bestseller in all categories. Click HERE or via https://amzn.to/3FcAKkI My link tree is here if you're looking for something specific. https://linktr.ee/petershankman 12:00 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits. Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. mostly somewhat:   As always, thank you Skylight for sponsoring this episode as well as many others of the Faster Than Normal Podcast. https://www.skylightframe.com Discount Code:  PeterShankman for 10% off, up to $30 off. [00:00:40] Peter: Hey guys. Peter Shankman, another episode of Faster Than Normal is Coming Your Way at Lightning Speed. Wanna give a big shout out as always. Skylight, skylight calendar and skylight frame. Like I, I, look, I'm not gonna tell you again how much has changed my life. My daughter's getting sick of hearing it. But I will say this, yesterday morning we were about to walk out to school and I looked and I noticed that the, um, dog doggy pee pads were not changed. And I said, Jessa I see if you're forgetting something. And she's like, no, I have, you know, I have my water bottle, I have my backpack. I'm like, really? You have everything? She's like, yeah, everything you need. Like, did you clear off all your chores or, oh my god, I forgot. She runs, she looks at chores. What? Well, I'll take care of your pads right now. And she ran and she changed the pads two seconds and she clicked that, that, that, that touchscreen and got rid of her chores today and everything went green. And she was incredibly happy. And I'm like, I'm like, why'd you forget? She's like, because you were talking to me. So obviously it was dad's fault cuz that's what happens. But check them out. Skylight frame.com. Use code Peter Shankman for up to 30 bucks off your order. I love this thing, one of the best things I have in my kitchen, uh, other than my, uh, ninja Ninja foodie, which is a whole ‘nother discussion. But anyway, welcome to the ever sort of fast than normal. I am thrilled that you're here. We are talking today to Robin Maddox. She's a pediatric mental health expert with over a decade of hands-on experience following data-driven evidence-based strategies to support and adhere heal children adolescents, and families. She works for a cool company called Clay. And Clay is sort of like this virtual company within early education centers. So think like zero to five when like 90% of the brain develops, right? And they have this comprehensive suite of behavioral and developmental tools for school communities that allow. More insight into what's going on and, and more sort of awareness of any sort of, uh, neurodiversity long before I guess other people would get it. Um, prior to Clay Robin was a child and family therapist in her own private practice and at the Family Institute at Northwestern University. She was the director of Special Education at Notre Dame College Prep. She's much smarter than me, I can tell this. She created, developed and implemented a special education program for students with Down Syndrome Autism, cerebral Palsy, tri ME 13, and other developmental disabilities. Robin also has prior experience as director and executive board member for Camp Hope, a summer camp for children and young adults with developmental disabilities. I have a dog named Waffle. Either way. It is great to have you on the products, Rob, on podcast. Robin, my God. You have, you have a, you have quite the background. [00:03:04] Robin: Thanks Peter. Thanks for reading that bio.  [00:03:07] Peter: Notre Dame. Are you an Irish fan?  [00:03:09] Robin: No, I'm actually not. Um, it was the, you know, first job I got. [00:03:14] Peter: So you're one of the few rams I discovered that there are very few people with connections to Notre Dame that do not shout, go Irish at every conceivable opportunity. [00:03:20] Robin: Yeah, that's not me.  [00:03:21] Peter: That being said, thrilled to have you as always and thrilled to have everyone listening as always. So, Robin, talk to us first about. Sort of what drove you towards special education and towards neurodiversity as a whole? Because, you know, it's, it's a, a lot of people go into it, but you're very specific. You're very specialized here.  [00:03:39] Robin: Yeah. I love that question. Uh, when I was in high school, I did a camp for kids with disabilities, um, pretty profound disabilities. So my Camper, who I was in charge of for the week, uh, was non-verbal in a wheelchair, and I was in charge of feeding her, changing her diaper, and she was older than me. Um, but I feel like she taught me more about life in that five days that I was taking care of her than I had you know, ever experienced. And so that drove me into special ed, um, in, in my undergrad. And then I met one of my students, um, family therapist. They came to observe me at school and I was like, that's exactly what I wanna do. And so for the last 10 years I've been in, um, child and family therapy, working with kids with disabilities and all different neuro divergence.  [00:04:29] Peter: It's not easy.  [00:04:32] Robin: Yeah, it's not easy, but it's really fun and really rewarding and um, I love it. [00:04:37] Peter: I imagine it would be. Tell us about, so Clay is really interesting. So this is one of those things that get sort of to the heart of what's going on long before other people figure it out.  [00:04:44] Robin: Yes, yes. I joined Clay because, you know, I felt as a therapist, I was so burnt out. I was, you know, helping one family at a time, pulling them out of the river and never going upstream to see why are you getting thrown in the river. Um, and I think so often, you know, parents are bringing their kid to the pediatrician and saying, you know, we're having these different behavior issues. Um, or they're having behavioral issues at school or home, and the pediatrician has 10 minutes, you know, for all the vital health assessments and vaccines, and they're not equipped to always handle behavioral health issues. And then the teacher's pretty burnt out and not always equipped, and the parents burnt out and not equipped. And the end result is, you know, from zero to five when it's the most. Like you said, the most crucial time, 90% of the brain's growing these negative neural pathways get set. These negative coping and self-soothing skills get set. Negative family dynamics, negative association with school and negative self-esteem. And then the research says kids don't land in my office until 11 years later. I. So, you know, that was kind of my goal at Clay was, and what Clay is doing, we're solving this, um, we're intervening and putting the tools in teachers and parents' hands earlier. So what I can do in six sessions with a four-year-old would take years and years with a teenager. And we're really seeing the mental health crisis start in preschool. Even though they're talking about teenagers,  [00:06:07] Peter: You're preventing having to undo things essentially.  [00:06:09] Robin: Yes, exactly. Exactly. [00:06:11] Peter: Huh. That is interesting. I mean, it's, it's interesting the statistics you rattle off there. I, I always talk about how, you know, it's difficult to undo years of being told you're broken, but I didn't realize it started that early.  [00:06:22] Robin: Yes, I know often. That's fascinating. Yeah. Often we undermine how important, uh, Zero to five is, and it's really the most crucial. And it's when parents are the most burnt out and, um, you know, many preschool teachers are underpaid and overworked and have these massive classrooms of behavior issues and they're not equipped to handle it.  [00:06:41] Peter: I'm still blown away by, by five years old. So, so you're saying is if you get the kids in. Before that sort of settles. [00:06:47] Robin: Yeah. When we, you know, it's much, much easier. We've found our research so far of the kids that we've screened, a third of them have been flagged for, you know, a certain behavior concern. Um, 40% of those kids were flagged for anxiety and 19% were flagged with A D H D symptoms. And so we're not diagnosing them, but we're flagging the teachers and the parents with this is what's going on. So they're not just a behavior issue, they're not a lazy kid who's not trying or purposely being defiant. They actually have something else going on. And if we can give them really effective coping skills and ways to talk to the kids. And, um, you know, to really see the gifts. I love that about what you do on your podcast is always talking about the gifts of A D H D and there are so many gifts of anxiety and gifts of A D H D and we really have to help kids get those coping skills and see that as their superpower and, um, figure out how to make school and family life work for them. [00:07:45] Peter: Talk to me about the parents. So I was just talking to a parent who said that, yeah, pretty sure my kid has is, is neurodiverse, but. We can't test him until he's six, according to the school. Mm-hmm. Right. And so I'm curious, when you go in and talk to parents who are at a much younger age  [00:08:00] Robin: Yep. Right.  [00:08:00] Peter: What's the, what's the reaction, what's the response? [00:08:02] Robin: Yeah, I mean, it's a common response of like, they're too young to have ADHD. They're, um, you know, it's kind of crazy to put my four year old in therapy. And I hear that and I get it, and we can't diagnose ADHD pre four, but we see the symptoms and we definitely see, um, the family genetics of that. So, if a parent has ADHD or anxiety, we typically, you know, there's a higher rate of a kid having that. And so there's never any harm in getting coping skills and language around ADHD or anxiety or autism sooner. You don't have to wait for a diagnosis. If you're seeing some of the symptoms and you're seeing the behaviors, we can jump in there and, and get coping skills. I'm not, I'm not encouraging, you know, an increase in diagnosis. I'm just encouraging an increase in screening and getting those tools.  [00:08:51] Peter: Right, right. And it's interesting because I don't know, I, this is the first I've ever heard I like, like think I know what I'm, you know, I've heard a lot about this. The first thing I've ever heard about. Young age, um, about really sort of young age intervention. [00:09:04] Robin: Yeah, it's crucial. It's really crucial in terms of how kids feel about themselves. You know, often you'll see a five year old going to kindergarten and already feel like they're stupid. They don't wanna go to school, they're a bad boy or bad girl. They're bad at listening. Um, they get all of these messages about themselves before school's even started. Right. And that's what, and, and you know, the family dynamics have been set up. So, um, you know, parents get in a loop of how they've been parenting a, a kid, and it really affects how they cope, how they self-soothe. And then I see them 11 years later and they're addicted to their screens or they're using food to cope, or they're depressed or anxious. And so what I try to tell parents is if we intervene at four, you won't be doing this at 15. You know, you won't have a depressed, anxious kid who's who's using negative coping skills. That's our hope.  [00:09:58] Peter: And the research backs it up, Robin.  [00:10:00] Robin: Yes, yes. You know, the, the mental health crisis, all of the research right now is on teenagers being anxious and depressed. One third of of teenagers are, um, identified as having anxiety or depression. And, and what we're seeing is those kids are, they're showing those signs at 3, 4, 5, um, and we can intervene way sooner.  [00:10:24] Peter: Wow. Three, four, and five. They're showing sign of depression. That is, that is sad.  [00:10:30] Robin: Yeah. Of what will end up, you know, I think we might not see a kid who's depressed, but we could see a kid who's, um, you know, got some pretty [hectic?] Behavior and, and then they start to feel depressed about  [00:10:41] Peter: what kind of signs should parents be looking for? [00:10:42] Robin: Yeah, I think when it's persistent, uh, when it's happening in more than one setting. So if it's happening at school and at home, that's, you know, a good sign that, that it's prevalent in both places. Tantrums, unexplained tantrums, um, pervasive, you know, negative moods, feeling like you're walking on eggshells around your kids. Um, feeling like nothing you do works seeing that like typical parenting strategies or typical school strategies are not working. And I think anytime you have that gut feeling as a parent, something's not right, or I think something's going on, or I think they're gonna be the kid and I. You know, first grade where we get them diagnosed. Right. Intervene now. You don't have to wait.  [00:11:24] Peter: That's a really, that's really good advice. It makes a lot of sense. I think it's gonna help a lot of people. Robin Maddux how can people find you?  [00:11:29] Robin: Yes, you can find us @ carebyclay.com and carebyclay.com. Cool. Yes. www.carebyclay.com .And you can always email me at Robin robin@carebyclay.com [00:11:40] Peter: Awesome. Well, I think this is gonna be a very, very helpful episode. I really appreciate taking the time, Robin, as always, thanks to our audience for listening. Thanks to Steven Byrom for being our amazing producer/editor. We'll be back next week with another episode where we will learn a lot and hopefully continue our mission to let the world know that all forms of neurodiversity are gifts, not curses. We'll see you soon.  — Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week! 

Having ADD or ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Hear from people all around the globe, from every walk of life, in every profession, from Rock Stars to CEOs, from Teachers to Politicians, who have learned how to unlock the gifts of their ADD and ADHD diagnosis, and use it to their personal and professional advantage, to build businesses, become millionaires, or simply better their lives. Hey guys, Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal. I wanna talk for a second about the Skylight Calendar, the wonderful sponsors of this episode and one of the things that keeps myself and my daughter on track. Skylight sits on your wall and tells you what you have to do today; what chores your child has to do today. It's basically a family calendar all-in-one. You can color code. It is amazing for people with ADHD. I am truly in love with this thing. We look at it every single day. It tells us the weather. It tells us what's on our calendar. It tells us what chores are left to do. Oh, time to feed the dog! - Mark it off on the calendar. My daughter can check the box when she's done and the chore disappears. It is one of the best things we've ever had. You can get yours with a discount using code: PeterShankman for 10% off, up to 30 bucks off. You're gonna love this Skylight calendar.  And you are gonna love.. I mean, truly it is amazing for people with ADHD or basically anyone who wants to keep track of their schedule. It sits on the wall, added bonus. You can throw your own photos onto it as a screen saver- on your wall! So now your wall has pictures. That's cool. Check it out. I'll put the link in the show notes. https://www.skylightframe.com Discount Code:  PeterShankman for 10% off, up to 30 bucks off. -- Entrepreneur, social media expert, influencer and now CEO of the hottest events in NYC, Liv Schreiber has a vision for changing how New Yorkers meet and build relationships and social communities. In the past, it was intros from friends, families, gym workout buddies or boring dating apps. Today, New Yorkers are growingly turning to the 26 year old Schreiber who's “Hot and Social” events are selling out in 36 seconds. Hot and Social has developed an event strategy where the attendees not only have an opportunity to meet and speak with their peers but an invitation to become friends in a world that many times seems so uninviting and cold. The events have continued to gain traction, and the waitlist for Liv comes from a family of entrepreneurs which you frequently will see in her content. The tagline of her company is "99% of the attendees show up alone, 100% leave as friends". This unique concept has led to some of the largest restaurant and club companies in NYC to reach out with the hope of securing a Hot and Social event for some of the most well known venues in the City. Schreiber is overwhelmed with the support and can't wait to bring her concept to other cities.  Schreiber has already worked with brands such as Anheuser-Busch, Moxy, REVOLVE and Rumble. Her TikTok and Instagram accounts have been blowing up- giving Schreiber the ability to package her social, with Hot and Social's accounts and event sponsorship. The Digital Renegades CEO Evan Morgenstein sees Schreiber as a perfect new client, "Myself, coming from Rockland County and having my family in the event promotion business most of my childhood, I see Liv as a refreshing new take on bringing people, brands and unique experiences together. Liv is so smart, she lives this lifestyle- so it's authentic and she has her finger on the pulse of the 22-35 year old market in NYC and beyond. We are going to make this an international brand and I can't wait!" 00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 01:44 - Welcome and introducing Liv Schreiber! 02:17 - On the importance of not feeling alone in a classroom setting. 03:34 - We don't need a lot of friends, but we need a few good ones. Would you agree with that? 04:20 - Tell me what your story is, how you came up with this idea. What's your background? 05:00 - Ref: Brand Caffeine 06:24 - What pushed you to decide to do something for friendship; as opposed to like dating, relationships, or the usual fare? 08:40 - Tell us about the people who go to & enjoy these events? To me it sounds like a root canal? 09:43 - What do people talk about? 11:00 - Why do you think we as adults sort of forget how to make friends? 12:26 - How do people find out more about you Liv? Web:  https://www.livschreiber.com Socials: @livschreiber on INSTA and TikTok  Then.. @hotandsocial on INSTA and Liv's Styling account is @styledbylivschreiber in INSTA & TikTok 12:25 - Can more friendships benefit everyone with ADD or ADHD and Neurodiverse? 13:07 - Thank you for your work here Peter!  13:18 - Thank you Liv! 13:20 - Another big shout out to Skylight calendar! 13:24 - We are thrilled that you are here!  ADHD and all forms of neurodiversity are gifts, not curses. And by the way, if you haven't picked up The Boy with the Faster Brain yet, it is on Amazon and it is a number one bestseller in all categories. So check it out. Click HERE or via https://amzn.to/3FcAKkI My link tree is here if you're looking for something specific. https://linktr.ee/petershankman 14:06 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits. Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. mostly somewhat:  [00:00:40] Peter: Hey everyone, what's up? My name is Peter Shankman. I'm the host of the Faster Than Normal podcast, and I wanna give a big shout out to Skylight for sponsoring this episode again, Skylight Calendar, guys, I told you about this thing before. I love it. It sits in my kitchen wall and tells my daughter exactly what she has to do. It tells her what she has to bring to school. It tells her what she can leave home. It tells her what chores have to be done. I don't have to yell at her anymore. She doesn't complain. We can throw photos on there of family, of friends, of my parents, of her, of of her mom's parents, everyone. She sees everything. She can touch screen it when she's done. She loves going over feeding the dog and then touch screening to say that she's fed the dog and the chore disappears. They're color coded, which is great for people like me who have ADHD and people like you. Check out Skylight. It is a phenomenal, phenomenal calendar. It'll make your life so much easier and simpler,. You'll have so much less to complain about. Skylightframe.com . Use code Peter Shankman and get up to 30 bucks off your first offer. And I wanna thank them again for sponsoring the podcast. The Skylight calendar is incredible. Skylight frame.com. Check it out. https://www.skylightframe.com Discount Code:  PeterShankman      Okay guys, another episode of Faster Than Normal! I am thrilled that you're here! About two or three months ago. I had coffee with the one we're about to talk today. Her name is Liv Schreiber and Liv calls herself, the one who's making friendship cool again, and it's really interesting. She runs a very cool company where she basically throws parties to let people make friends, and we're talking about that, but we're also talking a bigger picture about friendships. So Liv, welcome to Faster Than Normal- so good to have you! [00:02:11] Liv: Hey Peter, you're the best. So good to finally get to be talking to you here. This is awesome!  [00:02:17] Peter: Now I'm glad to have you. I wanted to do this for a while. It's, um, you know, it's interesting, the, the, I was, I was talking last week to a elementary school. I was reading them the new book, the Boy with the Faster Brain, and everyone was, you know, it was funny to watch the kids, right? Because 30 kids in the classroom and they bun Bud buddy up with their friends to walk to the auditorium where we were doing the speech that's, I was following them, you know, talking to the teacher and I look over and all the kids have somehow buddied up with another kid and they're all holding hands and there's one who, I guess, I guess someone was absent and didn't have anyone to hold hands with and he's just sort of like walking behind everyone. And he looked a little sad. My daughter was with me cuz she had the week off from school and she walked up, she grabbed the kid's hand. Right. And my daughter's nine. This kid I think was like five or six or whatever. And, and you immediately saw the change in the kid. The kid was like, he went from like, we have no one to talk to. Like, oh, someone's holding my hand. Yeah. And he was all happy and everything. Uhhuh. It really is amazing. We don't, you know, we joke, I joke a lot that I hate people. Right. I don't think we talk enough about how valued and how important friendships are, not relationships, not dating, not marriage like crap, but the concept of friendships, right? We don't need a lot of friends, but we need a few good ones. Would you agree with that?  [00:03:29] Liv: Absolutely. And when you think about it this way, like you're, you know, that kid grows up and he moves to New York City and he doesn't know anyone and he is starting a new job and he doesn't have anyone to talk to. Like, that's debilitating and, and just one person can make a huge difference in his life. So, you know, I was that kid. I moved to New York and I knew no one, and I was jealous of people in the street who had plans. And Peter, I'm not weird, you know. I have friends, but for some reason in your twenties and your thirties, it's so hard to make those adult friendships that really can make a huge difference. So, um, I noticed that and just kind of got sick of having this, this issue and figured other people might as well.  [00:04:12] Peter: Tell me for, okay, so let's go back. Tell me what you do. Tell me your story. Um, you're not, you have never been diagnosed ADHD but you're pretty sure you have it. I met you, I knew in about three seconds you did. Tell me what your story is, how you came up with this idea. What's your background? Tell us the whole thing.  [00:04:26] Liv: Yeah, absolutely.  [00:04:27] Peter: As far as my audience is gonna know, looking at your photo, they just say, oh, she's six foot. Of course she goes to all the clubs. Of course she has tons of friends. I'm right. [00:04:34] Liv: I'm actually five four. I'm not six foot.  [00:04:36] Peter: You come across very tall in your photos. Tell us the biggest story about you. [00:04:39] Liv: So I'm uh, from New Jersey. I have a twin brother. Grew up with a family of entrepreneurs. Every single hu human in my family line has been an entrepreneur. My dad has major ADD, um, and I've always just had a million different things that I love to do. My brain is non- stop. It's exhausting being inside of it. Um, I have a really hard time focusing on just one thing. Um, I have little quirks and, and things that I actually read about in your book that I thought were just me things, that happen to be, um, ADD things. So I've kind of harnessed it as my superpower and the things that I really love. I've been able to turn into businesses that make money. So the first is brand caffeine. Uh, my twin brother and I own a digital marketing agency and we launch content strategy, paid ads for brands and personal brands. Um, so we're responsible for making people blow up on social media and their sales. Um, but in terms of my personal, I, on Liv Schreiber have, um, a following on Instagram and TikTok, both of which, um, on my explorer pages think I have ADD as well. So I'm constantly getting fed, you know, signs. You have ADD every day. Um, and then, you know, I started Hot and social about a year ago. Where people come to meet new people. It's not weird. They're not weird people. It's all super cool and um, the premise is everyone comes solo and leaves as friends. So it's really, really special and very fulfilling.  [00:06:12] Peter: I like that. What brought you to create something where people, you know what, most people have created a dating app. Create a relationship app. I remember, I remember going to the hell back in like early two thousands, going to the hell that was the J-Date, matzo balls every Christmas and, and, and leaving and thinking that there was no hope for humanity and I wasn't really wrong. But, um, tell me what, what, uh, pushed you to decide to do something for friendship as opposed to like dating relationships, which is usually where everyone else goes. [00:06:39] Liv: Yeah. Number one, I'm not like a, a very sexual influencer showing my boobs on Instagram. So it, it just wouldn't, as a Lisa Lit, our shared friend would say, no fit my brand aesthetic. Um, That's number one. Um, it started out as hot and single because my twin brother was single. And I go around and I interview people who are hot and single, but that's just not the root of who I am. So in honor of that authenticity, um, switched it over, rebranded to hot and social. And the point is, is that when you come in just looking for friends or just looking to meet one other people, you're always pleasantly surprised and leave with more, especially if you do happen to meet a romantic connection. It's not something that you went in looking for. And I think that's the problem with a lot of dating apps is people are going in with this expectation and being let down every time.  [00:07:32] Peter: Yeah, it makes sense. I mean I think that that, you know, especially cuz dating apps need people to get let down in order for them to continue to make money. Exactly. Right. If everyone on dating apps found everyone immediately, they're, they're, you know, dating apps anymore.  [00:07:43] Liv: Right. And the great thing is there is a cap in, I guess some societies on romantic partners, but there's no cap on friendship. You can come and come back and come back again and still, you know, be excited by new people that you're meeting.  [00:07:58] Peter: It's very possible. Um, tell us about the people who go to these events, because I imagine that if you're going to an event to make friends, right, there's two types of people who go to the, to an event to make friends type of people who, you know, I don't think people imagine like, oh, this is actually gonna be fun. I'm looking forward to this. You know, for, for a lot of people, d, ADHD, going into a room full of people where the expectation is you have to talk to all these people. You've never met. Right. And you have to, uh, make small talk for an hour, two hours, three hours is the equivalent of going to a dentist.  [00:08:33] Liv: No, no, no.  [00:08:35] Peter: I'm not saying, I'm not saying that's what you do, but for a lot of people with adhd, I mean, I don't necessarily know if going to a, going to a room, Hey, you're gonna go to this room and you're gonna, there's a hundred people there and you're gonna talk to 50 of them, and good luck. You know, that, that, that, I don't know. Root canals, I, I sort of broke up my mind. So tell us why this is different and tell us how people sort of survive this and enjoy it?  [00:08:54] Liv: Okay. I love that. That's really funny. Um, so the number one thing is everyone's on the same page, so you're picturing yourself as going somewhere alone, where other people may know each other. This is. Peter. This is like freshman year of college. Everyone's on the same playing field. No one knows each other at the events. I show up solo. So it's really exciting because if you're someone that's looking to challenge themselves or just try something new or get out of the typical bar scene, it's really awesome because the energy is actually like ADD puppy. It's so friendly, so warm, so welcoming, so much great energy because you can literally turn to anyone there and know that they want to talk to you. I know that you wanna talk to them. Um,  [00:09:43] Peter: what do people talk about?  [00:09:44] Liv: Talk about everything. Where are you from? Where in the city are you? And we always have an activity, so it's not just like gathering people in a room with drinks. I barely drink, so it, that just wouldn't make sense. What we do is we do fun things. So, um, we're having pickleball tournaments. We had one on Friday, we have another one this coming Friday. So you know, everyone like does some rose and rally. We're drinking rose, and then we're going to rally. And learn how to play on the courts. We have comedy shows coming up, so it's like there's always an experience and something to talk about or look forward to or bond over. Um, and I think that's what makes us different.  [00:10:19] Peter: There's obviously a need for these things, right? Why is it so hard to make friends and not so much just, you know, oh, in New York, I think it's hard for adults to make friends, period. Because we're, as kids, it's sort of expected of us, right? I remember I have this great photo of my daughter, um, when she's like two years old and she's with a bunch of her friends on the playground and we, someone said, okay, it's time to go, everyone, get your buddy. And they just walked over and they immediately held hands and there was no, uh, issue with that because that's what they're trained to do, right? So we trained them to do that. But at some point as we mature the concept of go find your buddy disappears, right? And people either go out on their own or they have their own social circle and they don't wanna move out of. Why do you think that is? Why do you think we, for lack of a better word, forget how to make friends? [00:11:10] Liv: I think we get so absorbed by our own selves and, and by our own lives that we kind of forget that the world is going on around us. Like I, I think work comes into play and finding a partner comes into play and friendship kind of gets pushed to the side. Um, and it's sad because people kind of start, stop growing, right? Like, you know, every year in college we're forced to learn something new. But you become an adult and you kind of forget that that life is like a classroom too, and you have to constantly be pushing yourself and learning new things and meeting new people. So, you know, I, I don't think it's anything to shame ourselves about. I think it's just about remembering, oh, this thing's still going on, and, and there's so many people that are super cool that are out there that we don't even know exist yet.  [00:12:02] Peter: It's very, very possible. I think that, that we get into these ruts, we get into sort of these moments where it's like, okay, I'm good. I have enough. Right? I don't need more. I don't want go through because it's hard to make friends, right? No one ever said it was easy, and so if we don't, if we have what we have and we're comfortable and we're in our comfort zone, we don't necessarily have to do more because that's hard to do. The problem is nothing grows in your comfort zone, and so over time you need to do that. [00:12:23] Liv: No, I, I, exactly. I hear you. I agree with that. [00:12:26] Peter: Uh, Liv how can people find you? What? I know you have a phenomenal Instagram. I follow it. What, what? Tell people what it is. So how people can find you more.  [00:12:31] Liv: It's at Liv Schreiber. L i v s c h r e i b e r. Um, and Hot and Social is Hot and social. H o t and s o c i A L. Am I okay. I need to wake up. Um, But yeah, I'm super excited and I think also having ADD or undiagnosed ADD for everyone who's watching is actually such a benefit in friendships because you know, there's no one else who can text 20 of their friends at eight in the morning and check in on them and ask them how they're doing. Like I think having ADD actually is a huge, um, it, it, it's really a huge asset to my friendship. So, Peter, I'm really grateful that you've taught me that and reading your book and hearing, uh, you know, about all your tips and tricks on this podcast has really helped me. So thank you so much. Yeah. [00:13:18] Peter: I appreciate it. Thank you. It's great. It's great to have you and, and, and hopefully we can connect again and see each other in person again. I had a lot of fun over that coffee a couple months ago. It was fun.  Um, Guys, you've been listening to Fast Than Normal. We appreciate you. We love that you're here. If you haven't already checked out the new book, the Boy With the Faster Brain, it was on Today in New York yesterday on the Today Show. It is blowing up. It is. It is gaining a lot of traction, if you haven't, please leave us reading on Amazon. We love that. But either way, we will see you next week with a brand new episode. Thank you again to Skylight frames, skylight calendar, https://skylightframe.com. Check them out. To 30 bucks off with code PeterShankman. We will see you guys next week. Have a wonderful, wonderful week. Stay safe, stay healthy! ADHD and all Neurodiversity are gifts, not curses. We'll see you soon.  — Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week! 

Abbie McCarthy is an award-winning TV / Radio presenter & DJ, you'll find her hosting BBC Music Introducing in Kent on the airwaves every Saturday night and also bringing great new music & fun interviews to your TV screens on 4Music and E4 Extra with Fresh This Month. Abbie is known for bringing the party with her DJ sets and this year has played at a whole host of festivals, including Glastonbury, Latitude & Knebworth, as well as playing several arena shows. Abbie is also the host and curator of popular gig night Good Karma Club, which has put on early shows for the likes of Tom Grennan, Mae Muller, Easy Life & many more and has even featured some famous faces in the crowds over the years - Alex Turner, Lewis Capaldi & Wolf Alice. Abbie's huge contribution to both the radio & music industry was celebrated when she was inducted into the Roll of Honour at Music Week's Women In Music Awards 2018. Abbie has been highlighted by the Radio Academy as one of the brightest young stars in radio, recently featuring in their esteemed 30 under 30 list and winning Silver for Best Music Presenter at the ARIAs 2020. Aside from music, Abbie's other passion is sport, which really shines through in her entertaining coverage on Matchday Live for Chelsea TV. You'll also find Abbie guesting frequently on BBC Two's football show, MOTDx and doing online coverage for England and the Lionesses football teams. How has she been so successful already, especially having just recently been diagnosed, and what advice does she impart to us? Enjoy!  In this episode Peter and Abbie McCarthy discuss:   00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 00:47 - Intro and welcome Abbie ‘AbbieAbbieMac' McCarthy! 03:00 - So you just got diagnosed a year ago, so tell us your backstory? 05:51 - What rituals have you put into play for yourself to be able to get through the boring stuff? 07:00 - Do you get a dopamine release after having completed a list, or boring stuff? 07:38 - Who happens when you have to quickly adjust course? How do you balance your dopamine producers at all hours of the day and night, as various types of work demands? 10:30 - How do you handle negative criticism, and keep performing at one hundred percent even on tough news days? 12:32 - What have you had to fight through with respect to your being a Millennial, and a Female in a often-times patronizing industry? 14:23 - Americans are learning more about Premier League Football thanks to Ted Lasso. Who's your team? 14:40 - How can people find more about you?  Web:  https://abbiemccarthy.co.uk Socials: @AbbieAbbieMac everywhere:  Twitter  INSTA  TikTok  FB This was great- thank you Abbie!! Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  16:00 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits. — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: [00:00:40] Peter: Yo, everyone! Welcome to Faster Than Normal, another episode. Thrilled to have you as always. We got someone fun today to talk about- Abbie McCarthy is joining us from the OK. She's an award-winning TV and radio presenter and DJ. Okay, you'll find her hosting BBC music, introducing intent on the airwaves every Saturday night, and also bringing great new music and fun interviews to your TV screen on 4 Music and Eve four extra with fresh this month. She brings the party with her DJ sets. She has played a whole host of festival. She's played Glastonbury, Latitude & Knebworth, as well as playing several arena shows and she's serious. Like, no joke. She doesn't, she doesn't fuck around. You're gonna, you're gonna like this one. She's the hosting curator of popular Gig Night. Good Karma Club. God, what else has she done? Uh, she was nominated, she was inducted into the role of honor at Music Week's, women in Music Awards 2018. She's been highlighted by the radio academy as one of the brightest young stars in radio, recently featured and their esteemed 30 under 30 lists and winning silvers for best music presenter at the Arias 2020 I. Being in PR week, magazines 30 under 30, and I'm now 50. So yeah, now I'm all pissed off. It's gonna be a shitty interview. All right. Anyway, Abby, welcome. I feel old. How are you?! [00:02:03] Abbie: Oh, I'm good, thank you. How are you? Thank you so much for having me.  [00:02:05] Peter: I'm thrilled to have you. So you came to us because you, you were reading Faster Than Normal, the book, and you identified with it, and you found yourself in it. [00:02:13] Abbie: Absolutely. I really loved it. I just loved the whole concept of it. The fact that you kind of said our our brains are like Lamborghinis. They just work faster than everybody else. But if you do the right things, you can use it quite efficiently. I thought it was a really nice way to approach it. Cause I think there's some books that you read and it's about kind of, Dismissing that you have A D H D or kind of not embracing it. But I thought that the whole approach was great and yeah, I took so much from it. And because I've only recently been diagnosed, it was such a useful book to lose myself in. I actually managed to read it in a couple of days and obviously everyone listened to this that has a D H D knows that's not always, that's not always easy. So I think it, uh, became my hyper focus for a couple of days. I really enjoyed it.  [00:02:56] Peter: Very true. We don't, we don't normally finish things like that. Um, now tell us, so, so you just got diagnosed a year ago, so tell us your backstory. Tell us about what it was like growing up before you were diagnosed. What was it like as a kid? Did you, what was school like for you? Things like that. [00:03:10] Abbie: I think I'm one of those classic people where, I was, I was, I was okay at school. I got like fairly good grades and I was always being told off for talking too much, which obviously makes a lot of sense now and I think that would happen more and more in the classes of things that I wasn't particularly interested in. Uh, you know, you mentioned at the start, I do lots of different things within music and, and some within sport as well. So I'm, I'm a creative person, so some of the more academic subjects I didn't particularly like, but I. Was Okay and, and got good grades, um, which maybe was why it wasn't picked up, I guess, when I was a teenager. Uh, but I, it's, I have this thing where I guess I. I just always felt like I was different, but I couldn't quite put my finger on why. And you know, even as I've got older and I've got to do some great things in my professional life, like being on the radio to me is my dream job. I still can't believe I get to do that. I get to go on the airwaves, pick amazing music, and connect with people and share it with them, but that's awesome. You know, it's, it's. It's, you know, you might look at me and be like, oh, she's getting to do her dream job. But then it's like, it's more like all the things I struggle with at home, I guess. It's like, you know, keeping on top of errands and, and things like that and organizing other aspects of, of my life. And I think that's the thing with A D H D, isn't it? Someone on the surface might look a certain way, but you never know what's. Going on in, in somebody's head. Do you, you know, my brain is racing constantly. Yeah. Um, but you know, I've, I've managed to, to hold down a job and I guess I'm lucky because it's , it's, it is in things that I'm interested in, so that makes it easier too.  [00:04:50] Peter: Well, that's, I mean, that's really the key. You know, we, we all have to realize, you know, there are people who, who don't have faster than normal brains who can just sort of wake up, go to their job every day, do it for 40 years, retire, get their little gold watch, you know, and, and whether they love the job or not, is irrelevant to them. I. It's a means to an end. It's a way to make money. If we don't love what we're doing, we're not doing it well.  [00:05:10] Abbie: Yeah. Or you just don't wanna do it full stop. Exactly. So I feel so blessed to be doing something that I absolutely love and I. I'm so excited to go into work every day and the, you know, what I do is really varied as well, which I think works with our brains too. Like, I'm not gonna get bored. Each week can be very, very different. Sometimes I'm in the studio doing a radio show, then it's something like festival season where I'm kind of here, there and everywhere DJing. It might be going to interview somebody, you know, on the other side of the country. It might be going to a gig somewhere else. So it, it's, yeah, it's, it keeps it interesting. It's, it keeps it lively.  [00:05:43] Peter: Tell me about, um, so let's talk about the stuff you're not that great at. Let's talk about like, you know, what is it like to, you know, running the errands, things like that. What kind of, um, sort of rituals have you put into play for yourself to be able to get through the, the, the, the boring stuff? [00:05:57] Abbie: I actually got this piece of advice from somebody on social media when I first posted that I'd got a diagnosis and they were saying the things that you don't enjoy, things like housework and errands and food shopping. It's almost like, think of it in a different way, sort of set yourself, um, a bit of a competition or like, so you're trying to do it in the quickest amount of time or, you know, you set yourself a reward once you've finished it, things like that. So then actually that those, those activities aren't just draining. You are in some way getting a little bit of dopamine and I think it's just like picking the right time in the day to do some of this stuff as well. I think now I try and get up, exercise is a big one for me and I know it's for, for you as well from, from reading your book, getting up, going to the gym, even if I don't feel like it, which I don't a lot of the time, I always feel so much better afterwards than kind of getting all of those errands and boring things out of the way and then I can just enjoy the rest of my day and I kind of don't feel the guilt that I haven't done all the, all the adult things I guess that I think I should have.  [00:07:02] Peter: Well, it's interesting because that there is a, there are some studies that say that getting the boring stuff and stuff that you don't love getting it done is actually a dopamine release. Um, once they're all, not from doing them per se, but from that feeling you get of, oh, I don't have to do them anymore because I did them.  [00:07:17] Abbie: Yeah, that's true. Yeah. You actually completed something that you set out to do, so that's gonna give you a buzz, isn't it?  [00:07:22] Peter: Talk about, uh, some times where it's not that easy. Have things happened, whether you are in, uh, you know, whether you're at work or whatever? How do you deal with the things that, you know, you're, you're going a million miles an hour, right? When you're, when you're DJing or when you're working whatever, you're going a million miles an hour. What happens when you have to adjust course, uh, suddenly when you suddenly, you know, find yourself going off track or something like that. How do you keep yourself going, especially in a high energy job like that, because there's really only so much dopamine mean you can give. Uh, to get through over the course of a day, right. At some point, you know, I know that, that if I time it right, I give a keynote, I get done with the keynote, I get into the airport, get back onto the plane, and that's when I pass out. Right. So, how are you sometimes you're doing, I, I, especially as a DJ you're doing late, late nights, right? You know, into, into the wee hours in the morning. How are you holding that up? How are you keeping yourself aligned?  [00:08:14] Abbie: I think when I am DJing or I'm, yeah, playing a big event, I get so in the zone. I get so pumped for it. So I kind of have enough energy to, to get through it. I think the thing that I struggle with the most is when I've had, you know, a really great run of work, so something like festival season or because I work in football, you know, the, the Premier League season that we have over here. I've just been getting to work on loads of games with that. When that stops and there's just naturally a tiny little lull in work, and I say a lull, it's like four days or something, and. Get really down cuz I'm like, I dunno what to do with all of this energy that I've got. I almost dunno how to, to harness it. And then I have a real low and I'm kind of waiting for the buzz and the high again of, of doing all the things that I love. And I think that's been a learning experience for me is when I have these days off. Which I really crave when I'm in the thick of it. You know, when you are like working back to back and you're traveling everywhere, you can't wait for a day where you are. You can just not think about work and relax. But when it gets to those days, I find it really hard to actually lean into them. So that's something I need to work on to be honest. Um, but the other thing that I think is a bit of a struggle in the job that I do, and maybe you'll relate to this or other people will relate to this. Do more of a kind of public facing job is, you know, the sensitivity we can have to rejection and criticism. It's very much part of my job, you know, it'll be like, I'll be presenting something or I'll send off a show reel sometimes I'm super lucky and I get the job. Sometimes I don't. That's just part of the business, but I might then be really upset about that for a little while, and I think sometimes. The emotional deregulation thing. I can f I can feel a little bit. So that can be hard. I guess if you are, you're in the fields and you're not feeling so great and then you've gotta, you know, go on air and give people a good show, give people a good time. But sometimes I imagine that's a savior because you kind of have to put on this. I thought, great, let's have a good time. And you're doing it for other people. You're doing it for that feeling. It'll give somebody else. And the connection that you have with you and your listeners is really special. So you kind of wanna keep that. So sometimes in a way it can get you out of your funk, which I think is good.  [00:10:30] Peter: That's actually a really interesting point because I imagine that, you know, especially as a creative right, you do these amazing DJ sets, you, you're, you know, on the radio, whatever, and then yeah. You know, millions of people might love it, but there's one person who posted comments somewhere that's negative and that's all we think about, right? The same thing happens to me in keynotes. Mm-hmm. , but it's a real, you, you, you gave us a really interesting point, the concept of going on stage and having to put on that smile regardless of whether you're feeling it or not. You know, you don't have a choice, right? Mm-hmm. . So I would think that, yeah, in a lot of ways that's probably very, very helpful because you know that which you believe you eventually achieve, so, right? So, so you, you put that happy face on, you give that speech or you, you do that set at the end of it, you're gonna have that dopamine regardless. So it's a nice sort of, a nice sort of, uh, I guess, cheat sheet to get out of it.  [00:11:20] Abbie: Yeah, it actually is. Yeah, cuz it kind of gets you into that mental space, even if you really weren't feeling it beforehand. It might be, you know, you've got some really bad news an hour before I'm gonna go on the radio, but then as soon as I'm on the radio, I'm there to. I'm there to give it everything and to hopefully, um, bring people great music but also, you know, some good stories and, and keep them company as well. So it can be very useful cuz it can definitely switch you into a more positive place. And like you say, access that dopamine that we are always searching for. [00:11:51] Peter: Tell us about, um, how, first of all, how old are you, if you don't mind telling us.  [00:11:54] Abbie: I'm, uh, I'm 32, so I got diagnosed when I was say 31.  [00:11:58] Peter: You're 32 and you're female, and you're in an industry that's predominantly male focused and male driven. Right? So you are coming in as sort of a, I guess, uh, what are you, A millennial, I guess. Are you a millennial or Gen Y? What are you?  [00:12:10] Abbie: Yeah, I'll be, I'm a millennial. I wish I was a Gen Z yeah.  [00:12:12] Peter: You're in the cusp of a millennial, right? You're coming as cusp millennial. Tell us about some of the fights you've dealt with and some of the battles you've fought coming in as a millennial, a neurotypical, a neuro atypical millennial, um, who's a female in this male dominated industry. Right. You've, I'm, I'm sure you've, you've had to step up several times, both in, in football as well as DJ ing,  [00:12:32] Abbie: Yeah, I feel like I feel it the most as a DJ actually to be honest, where you'll turn up to DJ at a festival and a club and predominantly a lot of people working in that industry, it is changing, which is great to see. But a lot of people working in that industry, uh, are male. And sometimes you can get a few patronizing kind of sound engineers who are like, oh, do you know how to use the equipment? Do you need any help with that? And you're like, yeah, that's why I'm here. I'm here to, I'm here to dj. I'm here to do the thing that you booked me for. Or the, or, you know, the, the place book before. So I feel like you can experience a bit of that and I think a lot of stuff like where, you know, you are doing as good a job as your male counterparts, but you're probably not getting paid the same. But I think so much is changing. There's a real positive shift in like entertainment, in music, in sport. To, to even things out. But I do, um, some stuff for, uh, for B B C sport and uh, a sport. Chelsea, sorry if you don't, or sorry if people listening don't. So I do some of their matchday live programming as well, and I, I sometimes feel most vulnerable being like a woman in sport. Cause I think often people are just looking to just dismiss what you say because that industry is still so, so male dominated. That one's probably got the most catching up to do. Um, so dealing with that sometimes, but then it's, I think sometimes you just have to, although we find it hard, it's like shut out the outside noise and, and thoughts and just have real confidence and belief in what you are doing and what you are saying. That's the only thing you can do.  [00:14:10] Peter: Shut out the outside thoughts. I love that. So I've actually been a, I've been a Premier League fan for, for years, and I can tell you over the past few years here in America, I'd say millions more people have suddenly learned about non-American football thanks to Ted Lasso. So I think that, um, people are definitely learning a bit more , um, about it. What is your, who's your, who's your team?  [00:14:31] Abbie: Uh, Chelsea. Chelsea Football Club. Yeah, I've been a fan since I was like six or seven. So the good times and the bad times, and the Inbetweens .  [00:14:40] Peter: Very cool. I love this, Abbie! This has been so much fun. How can people find you?  [00:14:44] Abbie: Uh, people can find me on socials, uh, a Abbie Abbie Mac. That's my handle on everything. So A B B I E. Um, yeah, come and say hello! You know what? Us people with A D H D are like we, we love to connect. So yeah, please do, uh, get involved. Gimme a follow and uh, shout me in the dms and thank you so much again, Peter. It's been so fun.  [00:15:04] Peter: Oh, I'm so glad to have you! Guys listen to her stuff. She really is amazing, Abbie it's pretty incredible. Abbie McCarthy, thank you so much for taking the time.  Guys. By the time this comes out, you will probably. Have already heard the news that, uh, Faster Than Normal is being turned into a kid's book. It is. I can give you a title now. It's called The Boy With the Faster Brain, and it is my first attempt at writing a children's book and I am so excited. So I will have links, uh, on where to purchase and how to purchase and how to get fun stuff like that and how to have me come in and, and talk to your schools and your kids and, and whatever soon enough. So stick to that. As always, if you know anyone that we should be interviewing, shoot us a note. Just people as cool as Abbie and all and above only. Those are the only ones we want. No, I'm kidding. Anyone, anyone you think has a great story, we would love to highlight them on the podcast. My name is Peter Shankman. I'm at Peter Shankman on all the socials. We're at Faster normal as well, and we will see you next week. Thank you for listening and keep remembering you are gifted, not broken. We'll see you soon! — Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week! 

Professor Esme Fuller-Thomson is cross-appointed to the Faculties of Social Work, Medicine, and Nursing at the University of Toronto. She is also Director of the Institute for Life Course & Aging.  She has published more than 170 articles in peer-reviewed journals including the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, and Cancer. Her research examines ADHD and mental health, the association between early adversities and adult physical and health outcomes, and disparities in health. She has recently been focused on resilience and flourishing mental health.  Her work has widely cited in the media including the New York Times, Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Time Magazine and CNN. We're thrilled to welcome her back and hear about her latest research in our last episode of 2022. Thank you for joining us all year long! We hope you have a happy, healthy and safe holiday season, everyone. Enjoy!  In this episode Peter and Professor Esme Fuller-Thomson discuss:   01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 01:15 - Intro and welcome back Dr. Esme Fuller-Thomson! 01:57 - Since our last visit HERE, she has completed some new research on Anxiety and ADHD 03:00 - Women with ADHD were 5x more prone to anxiety, compared to women without ADHD 04:20 - What is the percentage of researchers who study ADHD and Anxiety? 05:45 - On budget, finance and anxiety + ADHD 07:17 - Are you one of the people perhaps more at risk for anxiety? Ref: Research Aug. 31, 2021 08:00 - ADHD and finding moderation with controlled substances/impulse control 09:40 - And now for the new good news!  11:00 - Ref: Corey Keys at Emory University and his three pillars of “Excellent Mental Health” 13:00 - More than 2 out of 5 are flourishing w/ excellent mental health; how do we get more of us here? 15:12 - On keeping perspective and not hyper-focusing on the bad stuff. 17:25 - A look at the factors in the study of those flourishing with ADHD 18:29 - 300 years ago, exercise was a mandatory part our daily life because we needed it to simply exist 19:40 - People who use spirituality to cope w/ their day to day troubles were much more likely to be in complete mental health. 20:43 - Point | Counterpoint on relationships and marriage 21:17 - Happiness and chronic pain 22:00 - Remember, just a few years ago it was still rare for Women to get an ADHD diagnosis 23:56 - What is CBT and can it be helpful? Ref: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy  00:00 - How can people find more about you?  Just type in Fuller-Thompson + ADHD, HERE on Google Scholar, or via https://socialwork.utoronto.ca/profiles/esme-fuller-thomson/ 25:00 - Thank you Esme! 25:18 - “Thank you Peter for what you do for the whole community of people with ADHD. We all appreciate it!!” 25:28 - The Faster Than Normal book is still being printed, and this is awesome, THANK YOU and I'm so happy it's helping!!!!   26:07 - Happy Holidays!!  Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  26:35 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits. — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: [00:00:40] Peter: High, high, high. Hope you're well. This will probably be last episode will be recorded before Christmas and the holiday break. I hope that you are all going somewhere warm or if. You are doing something that keeps you busy or maybe going somewhere cold if you live in a warm area right now, like to all my friends in Australia anyway, I'm not, I'm in New York City, it's 12 degrees or some crap like that. Um, I am getting outta here later in the week for about a week and, and gonna bury my head in the sand somewhere warm. So that's nice. Anyway, we have a g returning guest. We. Esme. Okay, I gotta stop you right here. Cause first of all, you understand I love this person. This person is one of the few people who's out there doing hardcore research on girls, women, and adhd. So I want to welcome back Esme Fuller Thompson, Dr. Esme Fuller Thompson. She's an incredible guest. We had her right, we think about God two or three years ago, I think it was pre pandemic. So it's wonderful to have you back as we welcome and you got tons of new stuff to talk about.  [00:01:36] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Absolutely. And some of it is really positive because last time I came it was all about the negatives. And I still have some, I remember. Yeah. But I promised you that I had in the works, um, some research on flourishing among h adhd. So do you wanna start with the bad stuff or the good stuff? Which one?  [00:01:52] Peter: Let's get the bad stuff outta the way.  [00:01:54] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Okay, so, um, when I was with you, which I think was about two years ago, we were talking a lot about women with h ADHD which is dear to my heart. Um, I think it's a neglected population. People really haven't been looking at it, but we, we, in that time we talked about, um, depression and suicidality. But we didn't really know very much about anxiety. So I worked on a paper that came out, um, uh, almost a year ago on generalized anxiety disorder among A D H D and life. It, it's not too surprising that the rates are higher among people, um, with adhd cause life is anxiety producing because things are sometimes quite chaotic, right? So yes, indeed. Um, We found that people with A D H D had four times higher odds of anxiety disorders compared to their peers without [00:02:52] Peter: Wow. Four times higher odds of anxiety disorders when you have ADHD. Wow.  [00:02:57] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yes. Yeah, so I mean, I was expecting maybe double, but. Four times and it's women. Insane. Were even worse. Women, women with a adhd were five times compared to women without h adhd. Now these are young, relatively young, like 20 to 39 year olds. And um, ooh, you know, that, that, that's hard. It's hard to, to manage. Uh, that doesn't mean that they actually have it necessarily at this moment, but they've had anxiety disorders. So some have overcome it, but, but it's, um, it's a significant barrier that, that a lot of people with a d h ADHD have to go through. And as I said, women have, um, a harder time with it even than men, even though women in general have higher anxiety., Women with ADHD proportionately are doing worse than women without ADHD compared to men with ADHD versus men without, so interesting. It's, it's, uh, it's a real issue and I think it's neglected. I don't think, I think the other behaviors, you know, the, the depression and substance abuse, those ones tend to get more attention, but anxiety can be crippling. And I think we need to think about it as, as clinicians and also as as people with A D H D and, and also people who love people with A D H D, that keeping an eye on that anxiety and thinking about interventions to help with it because there are some really good interventions.  [00:04:18] Peter: I know for a lot of people who are getting help with A D H D and they're getting help, uh, you know, whether it's medication, whether it's, uh, D B T or whatever, you know, there are a lot of. What do you think the percentage of of psychologists or or therapists are that put together the link between ADHD and anxiety?  [00:04:38] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Well, certainly I know with, um, some of my research on women and other people's research that women are much less likely to get the correct diagnosis and Right. So they might have, they, so sometimes they might be that anxiety or the depression or flagged and they haven't put it together that it's A D H D. If people are brought in young, uh, be maybe because of school related stuff for A D H D, they may not be screening for, um, depression or anxiety. So it's, I what I, my plug is if you have people presenting with anxiety and depression, think about A D H D. If you have, um, have patients or clients with a D H D think about depression and anxiety. Not that everybody has it, and we'll get the good news at the end. But it is more, much more likely to occur. And among those with, uh, among women are more vulnerable than men. But there's other things too. Um, low income is very anxiety producing, whether you have ADHD or not.  [00:05:40] Peter: Wondering, and I completely, I mean that, that's a given. There's no question about that.  [00:05:43] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Absolutely. But, People with A D H D may have harder time managing budgets and, and making sure that the money makes it all the way through to the end of the month. And so that, that's very anxiety producing. So now going from middle class to upper class, that doesn't make a huge difference. But being really close to the line and not having enough to make ends meet is desperately anxiety Produc. Yep.  [00:06:11] Peter: I believe it. And what's interesting is that I think, you know, especially now in this sort of worldwide financial crisis we're in, you know, that certainly doesn't help. It's, it's tough enough when, when we're all doing moderately well, [00:06:22] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yes. Yeah. So, uh, I, now, my, I should have comment that my research is based on, uh, representative samples, but before the pandemic, right? So everybody got more anxious, more depressed, and more, you know, during the depress the, um, pandemic and being locked at home is. Great for people who like a lot of the stimulation and activities. So I'm guessing that these estimates are perhaps, um, underestimates of the magnitude of the problem in probably, yeah. The pandemic. So I, I, as I said, there'll be a while before we get that kind of information out, but it seems logical to think it's not getting better anyway.  [00:07:06] Peter: Hmm. Unreal. Unreal. , but you said you had good news. [00:07:11] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: All right, well let me just finish the other people at risk, cuz those are kind of Okay. More, more bad news. Let's go over that. More bad news. Okay. Um, so the, uh, people who had more close relationships were much less likely to have anxiety. So almost every study I've done in ADHD, social support, having a confidant, having, uh, a spouse on your side. All of those things are really, really protective. So, um, the idea of building and building a so social support network and reaching out to that network and investing in it really helps on all those fronts. Um, . And then the, uh, the other negative news in August in 2021, I published on substance use disorder. And we touched on this briefly, I think two years ago when we talked about it, but some people, uh, uh, we found that people with A D H D were much more likely to have had a substance use disorder at some point in their life. And we're looking at 20 to 39 year olds and. Almost half had a substance use disorder. I don't think that'll be too surprising to you having talked with so many of your guests, but Yeah, not at all. So the issue is, I mean, some people are able to consume in moderation, but people with A D H D are probably many of them. find Moderation a hard piece. It's kind of an all nothing piece.  [00:08:35] Peter: People are able to, people with ADHD are some are able to consume with, what'd you say? [00:08:39] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: With moderation? Say, oh, I'll just have a glass. But that's,  [00:08:42] Peter: why are you, why are you making up words? I've never heard this word. Moderation. What is that?  [00:08:48] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: So my point is that, um, among people with substance use issues and a D H D and impulse control issues, perhaps abstinence is a good strategy. Not, you know, some people can do it without the abstinence kind of piece, but, um, You know, it, it can get you into, if you have impulse control and drinking and drink, this is all types, uh, it's higher for everything, cannabis, uh, heavy drugs and alcohol. So, um, generally the. The idea is that, uh, A D H D makes it harder to manage, uh, substances in general and makes you more vulnerable to, um, addictions. So that makes perfect sense. Yeah, totally makes sense. So those are the bad news, but can I get to the good news? Can I share with you,  [00:09:39] Peter: for God's sake? Yes. [00:09:40] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: After all of this. Okay. So, So, uh, you know, I'm, I'm more than a quarter century into my career, and so I, I have spent the first 20 some years looking at negative things, depression, anxiety, um, uh, suicidality, and, you know, that's a bit of a Debbie Downer. When you go to parties and you say, oh, what do you do? I'm looking at depression, anxiety, thanks, geez. But, and then, but it's a little bit of. Whack-a-Mole Pro, uh, uh, problems, you know, that little kid's game where it's politics of course. Yeah. Very, uh, politically incorrect, where just spit poor moles on the head and yeah, one goes down and the other pops up. So, you know, here I am, I'm like, okay, I'm focusing on say A D H D and anxiety. And so, you know, you think about interventions and many really good interventions and maybe anxiety goes down, but depression pops up or maybe depression goes down and substance abuse pops up. So, um, I, I started thinking, well, I need to really look at it holistically. And if I said to you, how are you doing today? And you said, I'm not suicidal. Well, that's not really where we want you to be. We want you to be flourishing, right? So, um, I started looking around and there's an amazing researcher at Emory University called Corey Keys, and he came up with this concept. Excellent mental health. So when I ask you what does mental health mean to you? Not just it's, it's the absence of mental illness. Sure. But that's not really enough. Just not being suicidal or not being depressed. It's really more than that. So his idea has, Three pillars. The first one is, no mental illness in the past year. No substance dependence, no um, depression, no anxiety, no bipolar, and no serious suicidal thought. So that's a great place that's getting you to, that's pillar one is getting you to neutral, which is great. Um, and certainly if people are, are, are, have any of those issues, getting them out of that is, is your first plan as a clinician or as a family member. But then, then pillar two. How often in the last month have you been happy? And you have to say every day or almost every day. Like if you're just happy twice a week, it doesn't make it. And they also ask how, how often you are satisfied with your life and you have to be daily or almost daily. So you can see that one of you have to be at least one of these. So pillar two is happy or satisfied on an almost daily level. So no mental illness and you're happy and satisfied. And then pillar three is about psychological wellbeing and social wellbeing. I have warm and supportive relationships. Life is getting better for peace pull. Like me, I like most parts of my personality. And in the last month you have to agree to the majority of those six of the 11 questions. at least, uh, daily or almost daily. You have to agree to that. So this is really, really, really high, right? You're not mentally ill. You have no substance dependence, you have no suicidal thoughts. You're happy and or satisfied, and you have warm and you, you have great social or psych and or psychological wellbeing. Like, isn't this what we're hoping for?  [00:12:54] Peter: Yeah, one would think,  [00:12:56] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: all right, so among those with ADHD, this is a really, really high bar. More than two and five are flourishing, are absolutely flourishing, are hitting this incredibly high bar.  [00:13:12] Peter: Interesting, interesting. That's more than two and okay. . I wouldn't, I would not have thought that ,  [00:13:20] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: neither would I. And in fact, when I talk to anybody else, they all say, oh no, it's gotta be 10% or something like that. But, and you know, some of the blame is to us who are researchers, cuz we've just focused on the negatives. Like I started the conversation with, but without looking at, well there are some people who are completely free of mental illness and are flourishing, and why don't we spend more time thinking about who those people are and how they got there and how can we help more people get to that point.  [00:13:51] Peter: Really, really interesting thoughts. I, you know, it's interesting. I think that a lot of, and I mean, look, I, I'm not the doctor you are, but I think there's, I wonder if a part of the reason that people with A D H D tend to find themselves in positive spaces more often is because, , we're very, very good at changing the subject. In other words, we're in a bad mood for as long as that bad mood can hold our attention. .  [00:14:16] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Okay, well, so fine. But, but at least, at least, uh, almost daily in the past month, uh, past week, months, uh, you have to have been happy. So you're saying the, it's the, uh, [00:14:28] Peter: well, cause you have, you have to be happy 24 7. I mean, no one's happy. No, no,  [00:14:32] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: no, no. You have, just have to have happy. Right. Yeah. Or you have, you have happy moments. Oh, well then, now I have to admit that people with a d, ADHD have a much lower rate than people without H adhd. But I, my, what I was focusing on, and I think, I think partly as we said, because we do all this negative research about all the negatives, people feel that they are, they don't have in front of them our potential to flourish. That they, you know, that, that that is not a trajectory for them. And I'm saying, wow, many, many, many people are getting to that incredibly high level of functioning and just, you know, life is good.  [00:15:12] Peter: Yeah. It's really, you know, it's fascinating. I think that that, you know, we spend a lot of time complaining. Oh, this is this and this. I mean, we got on the phone today, Peter, how you been? Oh my God, these last six months. You know, but, but in retrospect it's not bad. It's, there's day-to-day annoyances in the minutiae, but. , I'm here. I have my health. I'm, I'm, I'm my kid's doing well, you know, all those kinda things. I'm happy and, and I think that I at least look. Again, I'm, I'm looking at a sample of, of one or maybe two here, but I think that A D H D helps you stay happy because there's constantly something exciting. Something shiny just over the next hill. I know it sounds ridiculous. [00:15:59] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: No, but life is, I mean, let's be honest, it's fun to hang around with people with adhd, life, Ising. Right?  [00:16:06] Peter: Well, it's fun to hang around with people with adhd as long as those people with ADHD are on the right path or understand their path. I think that that there have been times when I've hung out with people who were probably undiagnosed adhd. You know, I take, I, I, I turn my head for a second. I look back and everyone's railing fat lines of cocaine. So I think that ADHD does have some negatives there in terms of the fun of hanging out with them. But yes, I mean, you know, my, my girlfriend tells me constantly that the reason, one of the reasons she, she, she loves hanging out is she never knows what's gonna happen next. You know, we're, we're sitting in a cafe one day and the next day we're flying somewhere because I read an article about a waterpark or whatever. So I think. You know, you have to, you have to sort of know yourself, but yes, I totally get that.  [00:16:53] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Mm-hmm. , so, so again, this was based on a sample, a representative sample of Canadians prior to the pandemic. So I'm pretty confident that the way that data was gathered, it's a really solid national study. So I'm, I'm, I'm confident with those numbers. But I wanted to talk a little bit about what was a hindrance or a help. Apparently I looked at what, what we call the factors associated with A D H D. So what are the characteristics of those, sorry, factors associated with flourishing among those with A D H D. Okay. And so, alright, right, let's just talk about it. Physical activity. I know this is one of your things. If you were pH physically active, they were four times more likely to be in the state of flourishing four times.  [00:17:40] Peter: I'm sorry that that's just a, that's just duh. Of course you, you, you, you box for an hour. You go for a run, you're chock full of do you're high as a kite. Of course you're gonna be happier and at the very least you're gonna be happier. Cause, cause it's over, You did it,  [00:17:54] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: but our, our lifestyle is not conducive to exercise. It's an effort. It's an organi. You have to be organized, you have to get out, you have to do exercise. The, the way you know modern life is it's easier to sit on your couch and it's hard to get that momentum to get up and out, but, Boy, oh boy. Four times the odds. This is, this is a winner. do not pass Go without exercise. Right.  [00:18:21] Peter: Well, you know what's interesting and that brings up a whole nother series of, of questions. One of the reasons that A D H D you might argue, and again, uh, this could be an argument. One of the reasons a d ADHD has flourished in the past a hundred years, um, is because 300 years ago, 400 years ago, exercise was part of our daily life because we needed to exist. Right. We exercised cause we'd exercise, we wouldn't catch. The, the, the, the, the, the Saber tooth tiger and have dinner. Right? And then we discovered farming, and then we realized we didn't have to walk so much. So the the premise of, you know, having all your food delivered by a messenger, by a, by a, by a GrubHub, um, that's a relatively new concept for our brains. Our brains are, are very, very slow creatures. So that, that's a very, very big part of it. You know, I would be willing to argue that that ADHD or, you know, People were probably a bit happier back then because they had to exercise, they had to work out, or they didn't exist.  [00:19:09] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: Yeah, absolutely. So now it's an effort you have to put . Structured in your day that you're gonna get to exercise. But this is, you know, I almost never see odds this high, like do this four times. You know, usually something improves it maybe 20%. If you're really, really lucky, it doubles it. But four times. Wow. This is a keeper for sure. You know? Now. Um, the other thing that was really interesting, and I haven't done much research on it, but um, I'd love to do more people who use spirituality to cope with their day to day troubles. Were much more likely to be in complete mental health.  [00:19:51] Peter: Say it. Say that again, slower.  [00:19:53] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: So, people who use spirituality or religion, so it may be an organized religion, or it might be spirituality as well. Okay. And if it was very protective. So people who use spirituality were much more likely to be in this happy sat life, satisfied, mentally healthy space. [00:20:10] Peter: Okay. I believe that if you think there's something bigger than you, regardless of what it is,  [00:20:15] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: all right, now, the and. And also that you have something to turn to, right? So that you have some right, and it, it's concenter as well. I mean, I don't know exactly why. I just know when you had do these sort of survey research, you don't know the reasons, you just know the association. So, but, um, being married is very protective and I think that's getting back to the confidant, having people on your side, um, and possibly to stabilize you too .  [00:20:43] Peter: Well, and you know.. There, there are, there, there are outliers of all different studies. Yes. Some not as, some, not as accurate as others, but No, I hear what you're saying. Um, I don't, I don't fit into that. But, um, I would, I would argue the caveat of with the right person.,  [00:20:59] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: right? I would definitely, um, and also, and I mean, being married or being in a, in a committed relationship kind of thing is helpful. Um, if it's, if you're right, if it's with the right person. And the thing is, when you do rep representative samples, usually the ones who aren't with the right person may no longer be with them. So I you don't see them in your analysis. Right. Um, now, Not, again, this is another no-brainer, but people who were in chronic pain were less likely to be in complete mental health. Now that seems completely obvious, but I was surprised how many people, these are relatively young people with ADHD are in chronic pain, perhaps because it risk taking behaviors or i, I don't know why, but, um, that's worth getting treated. You know, you've got your mental health stuff going on, but there's, if there's physical pain, Life is really hard and it's hard to be happy with it. Right. Um, and, uh, again, my poor women with h d they're less likely to be flourishing than men with h d, which is in keeping with all the, the higher prevalence of the negative things that we talked about earlier. Right. Um, so they're less likely to be all, um, completely flourishing. , you know, still many women were, but it's just, um, women with ADHD seem to be struggling more. Um, but there's a couple reasons for that. It's because, so remember I, this study was done almost 10 years ago, so women with a d d were not diagnosed very often. So I have a feeling that the women in my study who were diagnosed with adhd, they were probably fairly far along the spectrum with ADHD to actually get the diagnosis. So they may be. They may be, um, worse off than the av the average woman who would be worse off than the average man just because the people with milder symptoms would, uh, women can often, uh, mask the symptoms better than men because, especially girls, and so they were less likely to be diagnosed. So I have a feeling the women that we have, We're, we're pretty far along, and maybe that's why they're doing poorly. But it may be, it's just there may be less acceptance for women with ADHD related symptoms in society too. Um, we're still working on why women are vulnerable and trying to get a picture of that. But, uh, when more and more women are getting, um, diagnosed, I think there'll be, um, There'll be more understanding and more interventions. And then the other thing I just wanted to talk about, and I, I plugged this ev every time I talk to, uh, uh, you know, people with, uh, ADHD and any mental health CRI crisis. So even though though two 42% were doing really well that means that, you know, a little bit more than half had at least one of these other problems that that wasn't flourishing to the extent that they would like to, or we would all like them to. So, um, I just wanted to suggest that cognitive behavioral therapy, it's also called CBT is relatively short, relatively in inexpensive. It's a, it's a form of talk therapy. You can have it in a group session, eight weeks to 16 weeks, and it's been shown with people with A D H D and people with depression and people with anxiety and people with substance dependence. It's really, really helpful and what it does is it helps you capture your dysfunctional thoughts. So if you're telling yourself negative messages, which you may have heard in childhood, oh, you can't do this. You know, you're never gonna achieve. You tell yourself these types of messages many times an hour, that is gonna pull your, your mood down, your ability to function. So it helps you grab these thoughts and look at them objectively and reevaluate. And it can, it's, it really is kind of almost like you're reprogramming your own brain with more positive messaging, and that is helpful for, for almost every negative mental health outcome and certainly promotes better mental health.  [00:25:02] Peter: No question about it. What a phenomenal interview. We're well passed our time but that was totally worth it. Thank you, Esme it's wonderful to have you back. As always, [00:25:11] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: my pleasure.  [00:25:11] Peter: You're welcome here anytime you want. Really, really good stuff. Thank you again for taking the time. It's, it's great to talk to you again [00:25:18] Dr.Fuller-Thompson: And thank you Peter for what you do for the whole community of people with ADHD. We all appreciate it.  [00:25:24] Peter: That means a lot. Thank you. Okay guys. Fast than normal is for you. And I got some good news actually. So it turns out that Faster Than Normal, the book, which most of you know about and have read and probably brought you here, um, is still printing. It's, it's gone into like it's fourth or something, printing, and I've written five books and all five books I've gotten advances on, right? Uh, progressively more and more money. And then this Faster Than Normal I get a really nice advance and I thought, wow, there's a really nice advance. There's no way I'll ever make it back because I've never made an advance back in any of my previous. I beat my advance for Faster Than Normal. So, so finally, like five years later, I am actually earning royalties and, and I owe that to everyone who has ever listened to everyone who has ever bought a copy of Fast Than Normal. Thank you. It means the world to me.  We will see you again next week. We actually probably won't because next week is a holiday. We're probably gonna take a couple weeks off and we'll be back in the new year. We have, uh, sponsors coming up. We have new sponsors for the for the podcast. Lot of cool stuff. New guests, amazing guests, amazing repeat guests like Esme. Lots of people coming on the podcast, so, so stay tuned. As always, Faster Than Normal is for you. A D H D. All sorts of neurodiversity can be gifts as long as you know how to use them. Have a safe and wonderful holiday guys. We will see you soon. Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you in January- Happy Holidays!! 

Melissa Finkelstein is a New Jersey- based author, lawyer, and proud mom of three. Melissa has been writing and rhyming since she could form words. After graduating from Fordham Law, she began her career as a litigator in Manhattan. Because rhyming has always been her passion, she created a custom poetry business, Designer Rhymes so she could maintain that creative outlet. Once she had her son (7), and twin daughters (4), each with unique personalities and needs, the stars aligned for Melissa to publish her first children's book. Picky the Panda and the Tickly Tail is the first book in a series of three to come from author Melissa Finkelstein. Picky the Panda is a heartwarming story about a highly sensitive panda, which shares lessons of embracing sensory differences, practicing empathy, and recharging when overwhelmed. Picky the Panda was inspired by Melissa's daughter Skylar who has sensory processing disorder. Picky the Panda is now available on Amazon and in select children's bookstores. Enjoy!  In this episode Peter and Melissa discuss:   01:20 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 01:39 - Intro and welcome Melissa Finkelstein! 02:48 - So from Law to Children's books; tell us your story! 05:40 - Isn't it amazing what kids teach us. Are you finding that people are familiar with the topics in your book? 06:57 - What led to getting your daughter diagnosed? 09:30 - How old is she now and have all of your children read the book? 10:15 - Do you think that she's beginning to, (or will), benefit some from advances in awareness, research, etc? 11:18 - What's been the reaction and feedback to your book outside of the family? 12:00 - Is the book being used to explain to your daughter's classmates about Sensory Processing Disorder? 13:30 - On possessing supercharged senses 14:25 - How can people find more about you? Web: Everywhere fine books are sold Socials:  @melissafinkelsteinbooks on INSTA 14:45 - Thank you Melissa! 15:02 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Faster Than Normal is for YOU! We want to know what you'd like to hear! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to learn about, and from them. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  15:41 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits. — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: [00:00:34] Peter: Hey everyone, how's it going? My name is Peter Shankman and this is Faster Than Normal. I wanted to see if you expected me to say it, try to shake things up a little bit. Okay. It is a Thursday here in a very cold New York City. We have to say a fond farewell to fall, which lasted about. Two and a half days, and we are most certainly into winter. It's about 34 degrees outside right now, sunny, but cold as hell. So I am inside with a sleeping dog and with Melissa Finkelstein. She's actually in New Jersey, but we are talking today because Melissa is a New Jersey based author, lawyer, and proud mom of three. She's been writing and rhyming since she could form words. Her words, not mine. After graduating from Fordham Law, she began her career as a litigator in Manhattan. She created a custom poetry business called Designer Rhymes. So here she is as a litigator. Did you, I, I gotta ask you later, remind me to ask you if you actually rhymed during court cases. Cause that would've been awesome. Mm-hmm. . But why are we talking to her today? We're talking to her. She has a son who's seven and twin daughters who are four. They each have unique personality and needs. That's where she decided to publish her first book called her first Children's book called Picky the Panda and the Tickly Tale. It's a first book in a series of three and Picky The Panda is a heartwarming story about a highly sensitive panda who shares lessons of embracing sensory diff differences, practicing empathy and recharging when overwhelmed, and I think we can all relate to that Picky The Panda- on Amazon and everywhere you get children's books. Welcome Melissa. Good to have you.  [00:02:15] Melissa: Good morning. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for that intro [00:02:18] Peter: And just in case you ever think that nothing good comes out of divorce. Melissa came to me through my ex, let me get this right, my ex sister-in-law.  [00:02:32] Melissa: That's right.  [00:02:33] Peter: My ex-step sister-in-law. Right. [00:02:34] Melissa: I think you're stuck with her. I think she's just your sister-in-law still.  [00:02:37] Peter: Yeah. My sister-in-law, she reached out to me and said, you know, hey, have a guest for you. I'm like, I didn't even know you knew I had a podcast. So good to know . Anyway, it is great to meet you, Melissa. Thank you for taking the time. So from law to children's books, tell us your story!  [00:02:52] Melissa: Sure. So I've always been a writer and a rhymer, um, as I said, and that's really been my passion and that's kinda how I wound up in law. Um, I thought, you know, I'm really good at writing. I'm good at. Reading and problem solving. My skill sets seem to fit. I'm gonna go be a lawyer. It sounds pretty fancy and you know, I can have all this success and, um, I did have some fun and, you know, some fulfillment doing it, but I really missed like the joy and the whimsy of my childhood, to be honest. Um, so I toyed with the idea. Maybe I would be a preschool teacher. I know that couldn't be more opposite from being a litigator in Manhattan, but I really just wanted to use my creativity. My fun, you know, happy go lucky personality and doing like corporate insecurities litigation really didn't bring me that kind of joy. Um, as you might expect. And, you know, my life was all about disputes and I, I'm all about making peace. I'm like, what am I doing? Why am I fighting for a living? So this, this isn't bringing me joy anymore. Um, so all along, as you mentioned, while I was litigating, I had my little side gig, which just really was. You know, a passion project and bringing me happiness and it was creating custom poems for people for, you know, milestone occasions and that kind of thing. And I loved making others happy through my words. And so once I had my kids, I thought, you know, this is perfect. They're all so different. You know, they're, they learned so much from children's books and I think this would be a great outlet for me to use my words and. You know, I, I'm starting a series of three books, each of which are inspired by my three kids. So they're like my little muses at this point. Um, and in doing so, I'm focusing on what, you know, one of their biggest personality, um, pieces or struggles or challenges are to, you know, try to reach children like them. And in doing so, I wrote and published my first book, Picky The Panda and the Tickly Tale as you mentioned. And it is inspired by my little girl, Skyler, who has sensory processing disorder. And I didn't realize that by sharing her story, um, you know, I actually have become kind of a sensory processing disorder advocate and someone who is working. My butt off at this point to bring awareness to this condition and to what children like Skyler and um, like so many of your listeners might be experiencing. And that has been one of the most beautiful things to come from pivoting into my role as a children's book author.  [00:05:22] Peter: It's interesting because, you know, I mean, first of all, I had some nursery school teachers who definitely could have been litigators, but, but that's neither here nor there. Um, , it's interesting, you know, you made that switch. Kids do that. They, they, they have this uncanny ability to take whatever you think is your thing and just completely flip it on its head. Um, the concept of sensory processing disorder much like ADD, a ADHD executive function disorder. Not a lot is known. And so bringing, I, I'm assuming one of the reasons you wrote the book was to bring awareness to sensory process. Absolut, what are you finding, um, when you tell people about it, what percentage would you say understand, oh yeah, of course. I've heard of that. Or, or, you know, is it, I mean, are you, are you, is it a constant battle with the teachers? Is it, how, how, how are you finding that to be? [00:06:14] Melissa: It's becoming a much more wide spread. Um, you know, thing that people are aware of right now, but I think really the book shares this Panda's experience as being a highly sensitive, um, individual and what she goes through. And I think people are really relating to her experience more than they may have known or been aware of a diagnosis or a condition, um, called sensory processing disorder. So that's really been beneficial to me. Um, so yeah, I would say. I, I don't know. It's a smaller percentage than I would like for people to be aware of because it is a very real condition and you know, a very intense experience for those who go through it.  [00:06:57] Peter: How did you discover that your, how did you get your d daughter diagnosed? What was, what was sort of the key takeaways that, that made you say, Hey, we should look into this?  [00:07:06] Melissa: So she was in, so she's a twin. I'll start with that. So, um, I was constantly seeing her right next to her twin sister, and, you know, all kids are different obviously. So she was having a very different experience as a baby, a child than her twin sister was. So I think that helped make it more apparent to me that she was going through something and she was in an obvious discomfort and, um, just kind of unsettled a lot of the time. And, you know, I knew there wasn't anything medical going on with her because she, she was doing okay medically, we were bringing her to the pediatrician. Everything was fine, but I could just tell that she was uncomfortable. And my son at the time was in occupational therapy for a different issue that was going on. Um, and so I brought Skylar when she was one years old to this pediatric occupational therapist. Who I've come to know and trust and had her assessor and right away she said, this is something sensory going on. And to be honest, I was a doubter at first. Um, I didn't really know very much about sensory processing disorder or sensory sensitivity or any of that. And, um, I can tell you later that I've come to realize that I actually have a lot of sensory challenges myself, which I've learned through my daughter. So anyway, this pediatric, uh, occupational therapist evaluated her and right away she knew it was something sensory. Um, I watched the evaluation and I was like, you know, I don't know. I'm not really seeing it because she was, um, exposing to her to certain sensory, tactile, um, you know, things like sand and foam and, you know, different manipulatives that she could touch, and I thought she was fine. I'm like, you know, I see her getting her hands messy. But all along there were these little cues that were going on that she was able to pick up on. So just for one example, she showed me that while Skylar was, you know, digging into these Orbis, which are these like liquidy beads that children can play with, she was actually salivating and had like, Drool coming out of her mouth while she was doing it because her sensory system was just so overloaded, um, that while she was willing to do it, her system actually couldn't handle it. So that's just one example of how, you know, we came to be aware of it and then, you know, all the cues and clues just sort of lined up after that. And occupational therapy has been one of our greatest tools for her so far,  [00:09:22] Peter: I'm sure. How old is she now?  [00:09:24] Melissa: She's almost five. Okay.  [00:09:26] Peter: And has she, has she. Do you read the book to her? [00:09:30] Melissa: Yes. Yes. I, all my children have read the book and they love it. And my other two children wanna know when theirs are coming out and they are in the works. ,  [00:09:39] Peter: One of the things that I've discovered, um, uh, about sort of, ADD & ADHD when you're talking to kids about it, and so I'm assuming the same thing is, is truly is, it's all about how it's framed When I was growing. Um, you know, a ADD didn't exist. What existed was sit down, you disrupt in the class disease. And, and so I, kids our age, um, if they eventually got diagnosed had also had to overcome the stigma of 30, 40 years of being told they're broken. are you seeing with kids your daughter's age because of advances in research? Advances in, uh, awareness? They're not going through the whole concept of you're broken, they're not gonna have to heal from that. They can start looking at what they have as, you know, a difference as opposed to being broken.  [00:10:36] Melissa: Yeah, I really hope that's the case, and I agree with what you said. Um, and one of the purposes of this book is to frame heighten sensitivity or. Sensory challenges as a gift. And I know that that's something that you like to speak about, um, in terms of adhd and I absolutely agree with that. Um, so in terms of heightened sensitivity, you know, yes, it can present struggles and challenges, but it can also be your greatest gift. It can be, you know, the way you use your imagination and can be creative the way you are compassionate and empathetic and can show love. So it can really be a strength. And that's one of the things that I'm hoping to share with children who may feel like Skylar, um, as term in terms of their sensitivity,  [00:11:18] Peter: What's been the reaction or the, what's been the feedback to the book or the reaction to the book, um, outside of your family?  [00:11:25] Melissa: Oh, it's been wonderful. I've been hearing from so many families saying, you know, we have a little picky at home. Um, you know, my daughter like, wants to read it every day. She feels like Pickalina so it, that's been the best part of this. When I set out to become an author, I just wanted to use my words to make children and families happy and, you know, provide them with a good bedtime story. I actually didn't have these higher goals of, you know, bringing such awareness. and acceptance to children with differences, but like that has become the greatest gift. And the thing that I'm most proud of and most excited about in my journey so far. [00:12:01] Peter: Is the book being used, um, as sort of a way to explain to your daughter's, classmates about the different, because I imagine that much like ad although ADHD manifests in different ways, I imagine that sensory processing disorder must manifest itself in some ways that would make the kids go, what the heck's that all about? [00:12:20] Melissa: Absolutely. So there's a page in the book where Picky the Panda um, has become so overwhelmed that she's feeling dysregulated and she's hiding under the table in her classroom, and she is rocking and crying because she is so overwhelmed and her body feels such big feelings. And the students. Who are her animal friends gather around her and they yell Picky. It's ok because you know, they're just trying to be kind and they're like, come outta the table, everything's great. But for her, everything's not great at that moment. So that, you know, that doesn't work for Picky and it takes different strategies to get her to be able to recharge and calm her body down. So I think, you know, empathy and understanding and realizing that we are all different is definitely one of the biggest messages. So, yes, to make children, um, and classmates who encounter kids like Skyler or who have other differences to be accepting and empathetic.  [00:13:12] Peter: I like the concept of supercharged senses in the book because, you know, adhd, I consider it a superpower and I try to frame it as a superpower. So the concept of supercharged senses sort of seems very similar in the respect that you just have to, you know, if, if when I talk about adhd, I talk about the fact that. You know, most people are given Honda Accords for brains and we're given Lamborghini's, and so that's great, but you have to learn how to drive it, or you're gonna crash into a tree. You know, anyone could drive a Honda. You need training to drive a Lamborghini. And so I'm assuming it's the same premise with supercharged senses. I really love that term.  [00:13:46] Melissa: Yeah, thank you. And absolutely, I agree with that. Something we have to learn to adapt to and adjust to. But like I said, it, and like you always say, um, it can really be seen as one of our biggest gifts. Very cool. So my daughter can, she's, you know, the first one to smell something stinky or she can see something a mile away. She can hear that train coming, you know, 10 stops away. So, you know, she really does have supercharged senses, but it also can lead her to feel very overwhelmed and heightened at certain times. [00:14:15] Peter: Very cool. How can, so I'm assuming, yeah, it's available on Amazon, it's available everywhere. Um, how can people connect with you? Are you on Instagram? Are you on Facebook?  [00:14:24] Melissa: Yes. So I am on Instagram at Melissa Finkelstein books. Um, and that is a great place to follow me. I'll have information about Picky the Panda um, sensory processing awareness and about my forthcoming books, um, the next of which will be out in early 2023.  [00:14:42] Peter: Very, very cool. Melissa, thank you so much for taking time to be on Fast Than Normal today. I really, really appreciate it.  [00:14:47] Melissa: Thank you so much. It's been wonderful.  [00:14:49] Peter: Awesome guys. Check out the book. It is a lot of fun. Picky, I love, I love, I love the title Picky, the Panda and the Tickly Tale, talking about sensory processing disorder as supercharged senses. I love it. We back next week with another interview. This is Faster Than Normal. God, talk.. I mean fast- talk about fast, right? The entire year it's, it's almost Thanksgiving here next week in New York, it's gonna be Thanksgiving and I have absolutely no idea how that happened. And it's Christmas and it's New Year's and yeah, it's essentially summer already next year. So I dunno how we got there. But we will see you next week with another interview. Thank you so much for listening. Remember that neurodiversity is a gift, not a curse. And we are all on this train together. Talk to you guys soon. Stay tuned. Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Summary:  In the seventh episode of Season 10 of the Propcast, host Louisa Dickins is joined by Peter Epping, Global Head of ESG and Kathryn Scheckel, Global Head of Innovation at Hines. Peter and Kathryn will share how their careers led them to ESG and innovation. The guests discuss Hines' target to reach net zero by 2040 and the strategy they are going to use to get there. They talk about their key focus to bring down the emissions of their current buildings. In this episode you will hear about how Hines are going to reduce energy demand in their vast portfolio using both a customer centric approach and a variety of tools and technologies that can help create more positive outcomes for their communities and buildings. You'll also hear how different countries around the world are leading the charge towards net zero by using innovation in building technology and renewable energy. Resources: LMRE Global Recruitment and Search Consultancy LMRE YouTube Interviews Companies Mentioned: McKinsey and Company Halo The Square Shout Outs: Dr. Michael Crow, President at Arizona State University  Key Insights From This Episode:   In our view, innovation and ESG cannot operate one without the other - Kathryn If you pick the best expertise from different places around the world you will arrive at a product that is better for everyone - Peter The world is changing quickly so having curiosity and staying open to knowing what you don't know is crucial - Kathryn We need to solve this collectively to change our systems, the spirit of having realised that and everyone being willing to collaborate is really, in the literal sense, energising - Peter Millennials applying for jobs are going to be much more conscious about the health of the building they're going to be working in, and whether the business they're going to be working for is making an impact - Louisa About Our Guests: Peter Epping: Peter is Global Head of ESG, responsible for developing and implementing the firm's ESG strategy in close coordination with the firm's leadership, as well as its regional and key functional groups. He previously served as Fund Manager in Hines' European Investment Management Team.    He joined the firm in 2001 and until 2006 worked in various development roles with Hines Germany and the Hines European Development Fund. In 2006, he became a portfolio manager in the investment management team and starting 2013, he took on the role of fund manager of the Hines European Core Fund. From 2014 until 2021 he was also responsible for building three separate account portfolios investing across the risk spectrum and asset classes in major European cities.   Epping holds a degree of economics business administration from University of Mannheim as Diplom-Kaufmann and an MBA from Union College in Schenectady.   Kathryn Scheckel: Kathryn leads the Strategic Project Office in delivering firm-wide strategies for complex, multi-stakeholder projects involving internal and external parties, reporting to the Office of the CEO. Additionally, she currently serves as the Interim Head, Office of Innovation, reporting to the Global CIO. In these capacities, Ms. Scheckel oversees the progress and implementation of cross-functional initiatives at Hines that help push the business forward.     Prior to joining Hines, Ms. Scheckel's career includes strategic roles at McKinsey & Company in New York, focusing on organisational strategy & commercial real estate; and at Arizona State University serving in a variety of roles including as a senior director in the Office of the President, building & launching novel strategic partnerships, including the Starbucks College Achievement Plan.     Ms. Scheckel is inspired to connect and foster female talent in commercial real estate. Since joining Hines in 2019, Kathryn has initiated the global relaunch of OneHines Women's Network, which strengthens and empowers diversity, equity, and inclusion amongst women at Hines.   Ms. Scheckel received her Bachelor of Science in Molecular Biosciences & Biotechnology, Bachelor of Arts in Piano Performance, and Masters in Public Policy from Arizona State University. Aside from dividing her time between Houston Headquarters and her home in New York City, Kathryn takes joy in spending time with her family and travelling extensively.   About Hines:  Hines is a privately owned global real estate investment firm founded in 1957 with a presence in 285 cities in 28 countries. Hines oversees investment assets under management valued at approximately $90 billion. In addition, Hines provides third-party property-level services to 373 properties totalling 114.2 million square feet. Historically, Hines has developed, redeveloped or acquired approximately 1,530 properties, totalling over 511 million square feet. The firm currently has more than 198 developments underway around the world. With extensive experience in investments across the risk spectrum and all property types, and a foundational commitment to ESG, Hines is one of the largest and most-respected real estate organisations in the world.   About Our Host Louisa Dickins Louisa is the co-founder of LMRE, which has rapidly become the market leading global PropTech recruitment platform and search consultancy with operations across North America, United Kingdom, Europe and Asia-Pacific. To promote the industry she is so passionate about, Louisa set up the Global podcast ‘The Propcast' where she hosts and invites guests from the built environment space to join her in conversation about innovation. About LMRE LMRE is globally recognised for leading the way in Real Estate Tech & Innovation talent management. From the outset our vision was to become a global provider of the very best strategic talent to the most innovative organisations in PropTech, ConTech, Smart Buildings, ESG, Sustainability and Strategic Consulting. At LMRE we are fully committed at all times to exceed the expectations of our candidates and clients by providing the very best advice and by unlocking exclusive opportunities across our global network in the UK, Europe, North America and Asia-Pacific.   Timestamps: [2:35] Kathryn: How did you become the leader of Hines' innovation platform? Working at Arizona State University was the foundational underpinning that drove my interest for innovation, unique ecosystems and enterprises that drive different types of solutions. Following this, whilst working at McKinsey I was exposed to the global challenges the built environment faces. I joined Hines' investment management platform in 2019, at the time they were working to tackle and solve these challenges. From there I started a team with the intention to help cross-functional initiatives within the firm and our overall governance. I am now named our innovation lead in driving forward a reimagined way of approaching innovation. [4:25] Peter: How did your role in ESG come about? I joined Hines after university, working on development projects around Europe. When the first rules and regulations came up on energy performance in Europe we felt that there was a lot more we could do as a company. We started collecting significant amounts of data and measuring our performance. We wanted to achieve the highest level of efficiency and make our office and residential buildings as healthy as possible for their occupiers. This created a positive feedback loop with our investors that saw that our outcomes were significantly better. Subsequently, I saw a huge opportunity for Hines in ESG given that we were so technically integrated and we had such willingness to innovate.  [8:30] Kathryn: How closely do yours and Peter's teams work together? We work extremely closely together, I think ESG and innovation will become even closer in the future.  We also have a close collaboration with our operations and engineering personnel, who are the execution and implementation arm of so many of the different strategies and innovations. [10:28] Peter: What is Hines' plan for our planet? The target for us is for operational energy, everything we do around our existing buildings we are looking at setting a target for the embodied carbon, which as a developer is a huge exposure. The target we're setting for operational emissions in 2040 is without offsets and will be aligned with the science based targets initiative. We're investing in furthering energy efficiency in our buildings. The key focus for us is that we're bringing down the actual emissions of our buildings. [13:54] Kathryn: Are there any technologies that you are looking at investing in or are currently piloting? We're taking a truly customer centric approach within the innovation platform to solve some of the challenges within ESG. All types of solutions, tools and technologies can help support carbon tracking, carbon mitigation and create more positive outcomes for our communities and buildings.  Hines already has a tremendous playbook and history of innovation, but we are managing processes to think about more obstacles in innovation that may be on the horizon. [17:53] Peter: What are the major trends you've observed across different geographies within innovation, digital transformation and ESG? In the Nordics we have seen great expertise in the area of heat pumps and renewable energy, they have decided much earlier than the rest of the world that they want to stop using fossil fuels. They have a very open mindset to innovation which is extremely refreshing. We have a new development in Manhattan where we are applying the same concepts that people use in Nordic countries and the result is an all electric building which not only will eventually be net-zero but is comfortable for the tenants. If you pick the best expertise from different places around the world you will arrive at a product that is better for everyone.  [21:23] Kathryn: What trends have refocused you to work on the innovation side at Hines? What we're seeing across geographies is the concept of flexibility and what our tenants are really demanding, especially in the post COVID world. One particular venture that I can share with you is a software play called Halo. It supports broader flexibility options in the office domain as well as what the tenants are wanting.  We also have a flexible workspace product called the Square which is a hardware that offers more flexible types of office spaces. Another trend we are seeing is the concept of data, the data coming out of our building systems can help solve other pain points for our clients. L – Touch on the main lessons you have learnt throughout your career. Kathryn: There is no single person in a team. The power and the force of networks and partnerships is crucial. M - Please give a mention to anyone / product / service. Peter - My colleagues who are running the European Core Fund at Hines are managing to implement what we want to do across the whole firm in such a consistent and coherent way. I also want to shout out to the leaders in this industry who are being very open and collaborative, this mindset is extremely refreshing. R – What has been the most  rewarding  aspect of working in the innovation side of real estate? Kathryn: The evermore converging of our product types, our industry and the built environment. E - What are you excited about in the future of Proptech? Peter: I'm excited about seeing how much opportunity there is and how this will work financially, as this will be the biggest catalyst for making this happen.  Sponsors Launch Your Own Podcast A Podcast Company is the leading podcast production and strategic content company for brands, organisations, institutions, individuals, and entrepreneurs. Our team sets you up with the right strategy, equipment, training, guidance and content to ensure you sound amazing while speaking to your niche audience and networking with your perfect clients. Get in touch hello@apodcastcompany.com 

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows' Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/. DISCOUNT CODE: SMFriends22 — Cool interview today with a content creator and health care provider who is recently diagnosed with ADHD, yet survived school without knowing what was going on with her brain! She turned to the internet to let people know that they are not alone, and to be helpful to others! A little more about our guest today in her own words:  Karrisa Cardenas is a mental health content creator, Singer songwriter, entrepreneur and the host of her very own podcast called “Finding Your Mind” and of course shares her life through the lens on her YouTube channel. She has faced many challenges in her life along side her ADHD such as depression, anxiety, daddy issues, abuse and so much more.  She has used all she has been through as inspiration to keep creating, creating for those who don't have anyone to go to and are facing these challenges alone. She shares her dark times to bring awareness. Letting those who listen know that its okay not to be okay and there is a light at the end of the tunnel, its just going to take a while to get there. Little back story on my life. I grew up very fast at a young age, had to take care of my mother most of my life and my father was never in the picture. Throughout my younger years I was faced with traumas that shape who i am today, which is why i create content around mental health and ADHD, i never had anyone to tell me what was going on with me so i had to figure it out all by myself. I didn't have the luxury of doctors to help me. I was simply on my own with my mind. How scary, but also so freaking beautiful. Those were some tough years to go through but man on man am i such a wonderful human because of it. I have had my fair share of jobs such as coaching cheerleading, installing stoves and pools, Retail, Fast food, Waitressing, Barista, Nursing Assistant, Assistant manager of a non profit, and no i didn't get fired from these jobs i quit because my ADHD was bored after learning everything in those positions. A few fun facts about our guest:  Never reads the last chapter in a book. Chocolate milk + popcorn always. Sits criss cross apple sauce in chairs. From a small town called Kelso. Left handed -which is a super power too. Enjoy!  ——  In this episode Peter and Karrisa discuss:   01:26 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 01:45 - A note about the Boxing command: “duck!!” 02:22 - Intro and welcome Karrisa Cardenas! 04:51 - What made you want to share your stories with the public? 06:20 - On what happened after she first shared 07:00 - Haters gonna hate. How did you press forward? 08:52 - Karrisa, wise beyond her years and dealing with bad words people say 10:20 - On wishing healing 10:48 - How do you come up with your ideas for content? 11:53 - How often to you post? You grew up “social”, but how much of your life do you actually share. How do you set up boundaries? 14:00 - You've had all sorts of jobs. How do you make a living, or how did you starting out? 16:00 - On having a back-up plan/safety chute 16:46 - Are you a night owl and why do you have to chase popcorn with chocolate milk? 17:49 - We are kind of unique in that we both are doing this to help others. Where does this come from in you? Why do you do this? 20:04 - How can people find more about you? Web: LinkTree  Finding Your Mind Podcast Socials:  @karrisamarieofficial on INSTA  Facebook and YouTube 20:27 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  20:55 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits  — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:  Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows' Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/ — Welcome to another episode of Faster Than Normal. My name is Peter Shankman. I am thrilled to be joining you today. I am a little more hyper than normal. I just took, literally just came back from a boxing class over at Victory Boxing, Victory Boxing on 37th Street off of 10th Avenue and holy. Um, it's normally, I, you know, you get one of the coaches one of the day. No, this was the owner who's a pit, or, Hey, let's, let's spar for a bit. Kicked my ass. Into next week. So I am high as a kite on dopamine an adrenaline right now, but oh my God, in three hours, I'm not going to be able to move. He's like, you know, it's funny when you're, when you're, when you're boxing and you're thinking about that next punch, whatever you all you hear are like the punch calls. And he's like, you know, he's like, um, jab cross, left hook, right hook upper cut, left upper cut right. And then he throws duck. And you're staying like an idiot who goes, Oh, is there a duck somewhere? And you could hit in the side of the head. So it has been, it was a fun hour, but oh my God, I'm gonna be hurting in a few. So anyway, with that said, thrilled that you're here and I want you to meet Karrisa Cardenas, so I might be on Instagram. As you know, as a matter of fact, both my mother and my daughter's mother, I'm pretty sure called Child Protective Services on me this morning because I videoed with a 360 Insta Cam I video. I put it on top of my helmet and videotaped or, or, or recorded, uh, the 2.7 mile scooter ride that I take every morning when I take my daughter to school and. You didn't realize how scary that ride is until you look at it on a 360 video and you're like, Wow, that truck nearly killed me. That other truck nearly killed me. Oh, that's 17 trucks. Oh, there's a school bus nearly, and a city bus nearly killed me. So, yeah, I'm pretty sure that that Child Protect service is gonna bust in any minute and, and take my daughter away from you. But either way, it was totally worth it and great video. So I'm on Instagram a lot. I love creating content, and of course I love absorbing content, and Instagram knows this and they treat me, uh, incredibly well because of it. In other words, they, they cater to my wants and my needs because it means I stay on longer like a good little boy, which is exactly what they need for their advertising. Well, that being said, I came across Carissa Cardenas. She's a mental health content creator. Okay? She's a singer songwriter, entrepreneur. Hosted a very own podcast called Finding Your Mind, and she shares her life through the lens, through the lens on her YouTube channel. She's faced a ton of challenges in her life. She has depression, anxiety, and this is her words, Daddy issues, abuse, and so much more. And she's used all of this as an inspiration to keep creating, to create for those who don't have anywhere to go and don't have anyone to talk to and are facing those challenges alone. I love this. She shares her dark times to bring awareness, letting those who listen know that it's okay not to be okay. And even though it might take a long time to get there, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, she tells me, I'll talk to you about her backstory. I'll ask her about it and I'll let her speak in a second but she, she has a really interesting backstory, um, that has shaped who she is. And, and I think it's wonderful. And she, she put fun, I love when people do this in her bio, she put a bunch of fun facts. So we're gonna read the, the last five minutes, we're gonna two minutes. We're gonna read those out and have her define those. Karrisa, welcome to Faster Than Normal! [00:04:24] Karrisa: Hello. [00:04:26] Peter: I am thrilled that you're here. I love the videos you create. They're so honest, they're so straightforward, and I, I first found you because I'm, I look another ADHD creator and I'm like, Goddammit, another ADHD creator who's getting like 20 times as many likes as me, and this is pissing me the hell off. So obviously we'll talk about how you're, you know, what your, what your system is because you're, you're creating incredible content. But what originally drew you to say, Hey, I'm gonna tell my story in public and, and, and love it or hate it here it is?  [00:04:54] Karrisa: Uh, well, to be honest, uh, in 2015 is kind of where it all started and, uh, I started making video content on Facebook actually. And, uh, I started that because I was very alone growing up. And I faced all these traumas and these issues throughout my life that I just felt so alone and I didn't go to therapy and I didn't know what was wrong with me. Everyone told me that I like, had issues and I was so, you know, angry and all these things. So I just felt very alone and very scared. So I decided one day to pick up the camera and, well, it's actually my phone. It was my, I think it was with my flip phone to be honest, and I started recording on it. And I was like, You know what, I'm just gonna share like a diary. So I sat there and I shared all of my, uh, daddy issues and my anxiety and all that stuff in like different video forms. And this was when I was like, what, 18, 19. So I was like going through it and I, I recorded everything in my vehicle and and I sat there and I was like, you know, I'm gonna do this for other people because I never had help and I never, you know, got anyone. Relate to, and so I just decided one day I was like, I'm, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna scarily share everything that I've been through, even though it might be tmi. I just need someone else to hear it.  [00:06:18] Peter: And it sort of blew up from there.  [00:06:20] Karrisa: Yeah, so it went from that and then of course, you know, doubts and insecurities got into into my bloodstream and it decided to, uh, make me not post for a while. And then I decided, okay, this is really what I wanna do with my life. So I decided to start a podcast instead cuz it was just so much easier than having to edit video and I always have to look nice on video, so I just decided to do it, podcast, and then it started to slowly take off and then it did randomly and I was like, Holy moly, this is it. Uh, I really gotta, I really gotta do this now. You know? So it was really awesome.  [00:06:55] Peter: You know, it's interesting, let talk for a second about you stopped creating content when you started getting like, what haters and things like that. [00:07:01] Karrisa: Yeah, I, I stopped as people would just tell they were ugly. They were so ugly. [00:07:07] Peter: Now here's the thing, I mean, that's not, that's never changed. I mean, I, I posted that video this morning of the ride to school, and then I went and into my boxing class and I came out and they're like, About 20 comments and at least four of them were like, Oh, I'm never coming to New York. Fuck New York. There's a, you know, it's full of Democrats. Okay, well, you know, you're obviously meet people like that. And then you get the, Oh wow, you know, we gonna put your kid in the harm's way in the middle of the time, square traffic. I'm like, Okay, I'm much better scooter than you, whatever. But, you know, I, I feel, I feel like I'm 50, right? I, I've had 20 years of giving corporate keynote speeches in front of 20,000 people where I. I'm still kind of, I'm mostly over the haters, but you never truly get over them. You're a lot younger than me. Tell the audience what you did to get past it. Because that the haters and the, and the, and the, the, the, um, trolls, they kill about 95% of the, of the people who wanna create content and they just stop. And they don't wanna do that. And they, they, they leave a lot of stuff, beautiful stuff on the table, never wind up doing.  [00:08:04] Karrisa: Well, uh, yeah. I also was doing YouTube too, so I got all those like, hate comments. You should die. You sh you're ugly. You know, all of those beautiful things at a young age. So, um, I just kind of sat with myself and I really focused on what I wanted to do as a person and who wanted to be, and I had to realize that no one else's fucking opinion, excuse my language really mattered. And I had really had. Hone into myself and really believe in myself and really just not care at all about what anyone else has to say and just hyper focus on that and not even, I didn't look for comments like probably the first two years I got back into it because I was like, I don't need their opinions, whether it be good or not. I never replied to anyone's comments. I just focused on what I wanted to do.  [00:08:52] Peter: Let me ask you a question if you don't mind sharing how old are you? [00:08:54] Karrisa: I'm 28.  [00:08:56] Peter: That is, I gotta give you such props for that because I remember I started my first company at 27, 26. Mm-hmm. and I sold it, it was a PR firm. I sold it at 29 to a larger agency. And I remember even at 29 thinking like the news went out that it was sold and there were all, you know, Oh, he probably couldn't, he probably just sold it for like, for nothing cuz you know, he couldn't, couldn't keep it up. And his parents probably like, you know, gave him money to start it and it. I remember, I remember like it was yesterday, reading that comment and being like, Wow, I must be nothing. You know? And, and this took years. It took years. I probably, I'm 50 now. Maybe, maybe a couple years ago I really stopped caring as much as I can. But you're still gonna care a little bit. I mean, it's really, I give you a lot of credit for that. It's really impressive. At your age to be able to get past that. [00:09:42] Karrisa: Yeah. It's, it's a difficult thing though. And I mean, there it is always gonna be here. Like, it's even gonna get worse the bigger you get. Like it's just the way the world works. Yeah. But since I kinda, I grew up in, in social media, to be honest, uh, I started just to see, you know, these empty comments I like to say, because, you know, those people are going through stuff on their own and they're just using, you know, their hate towards you for comfort in a way. And it's just, it's an ugly thing. But I've, I put my. I mean, I put myself in their shoes to make sure like, Hey, listen, you, you know, they're probably suffering from anxiety, traumas, like all of these things. And you know, they're just hating. They shouldn't, but they're just hating. Cause that's all they know. [00:10:20] Peter: Right. Don't, don't wish anger on them. Wish, wish, wish, healing.  [00:10:24] Karrisa: Yeah. That's, that's just what I do.  [00:10:26] Peter: That's impressive. Again, that's really impressive. I still, I mean, I wish healing on them, but I still go to the boxing gym and beat the show to some bags every you, every day. Of course. Gotta do that.  [00:10:33]Karrisa: Of course. [00:10:34] Peter: So, let's talk about the kind of content you create when you, when you're posting mental health. I mean, there are a ton of mental health, you know, content creators out there and not, not the majority of them are not getting anywhere near as well as you. Um, So do you listen to your audience? Do you take advice from your audience? Do you, do you, do you listen to their feedback and incorporate that into future posts? How do you come up with your ideas?  [00:10:54] Karissa: Uh, I honestly haven't done that. Like I get a lot of, uh, messages about saying, you know, like all the things that I've posted that have helped them or, you know, opened their eyes or something like that, which is so amazing. But I kind of just focus on what I feel at the time. So I'll be sitting, let's just say I'm at, sitting at my desk and I just have this urge to talk about a specific topic. I'll just do it. At random. Like, I haven't got to the point where I, like, I take feedback yet just because I want to, I want to stay with this momentum that I've got, and usually feedback with my ADHD and everything makes my brain go freaking nuts. Uhhuh. Like, I just, I can't focus. So then I'm like, Oh crap. Did I say the right thing? Did I do the right thing for these people? Or they, you know, So I just hyperfocus on like what I need to say first, and then of course I, I listen to you know, comments later down the road and kind of incorporated into the next content I do create. But I mean, just hyper focus on, you know, how I'm feeling that day, to be honest.  [00:11:53] Peter: How often are you posting, uh, daily? So that brings up another interesting question. You, you said yourself, you're a child of social media. You grew up in this era. Um, you know, know, I, I thank God every day that camera phones and things of that nature didn't exist when I was in high school, I'd probably see somebody in jail and, you know, for you. You're, I guess it is perfectly normal that everything you do mm-hmm. is public. Yeah. Now, but here's a question. It looks like everything of what you do is public to what percent of things that you do are public? Like, you know, I'm sure you still have a private life that you don't necessarily share. [00:12:27] Karrisa:Yeah. Uh, I would say I only share about 10%.  [00:12:31] Peter: And how do you, do you set up boundaries for yourself so that you don't overshare or that you don't, You know, I, I remember probably 15 years ago writing a multi tweet Twitter rant, and this is before you could like, collect, connect, the tweets was much harder. And it was basically me bitching about something that I, I really didn't need to be bitching about, and I sent it and learned a valuable lesson that night. Right. You don't necessarily need to share every damn thing. Yeah. So how are you, how are you aware of that? What are you doing to make sure that you're, you know, okay, this is something that might be interesting, but I'm not gonna sit here and bitch for the next three hours about whatever. [00:13:04] Karrisa: Uh, to be honest, I . I wish I had more of a filter. Uh, but I don't, And so the only thing that I really set boundaries towards is talking about politics, to be honest, because, you know, it's just one of those things that I just don't wanna get into on, you know, the internet because I would just get wrecked to be honest. So I just kinda set boundaries with that and I just, Almost everything. I am very open. I'm an open book, and if people hate it, they hate it because there's, there's people out there that are suffering through things that, you know, if they don't have the connection with other people that they can talk to. So it's like, I'm gonna share all the ugly parts and this is more so when I. Was younger. So I'm sharing all of those issues, the abuse and stuff so that it could connect to the right people so that they can live a another day, to be honest. But, um, other than that, the boundaries I set are just political .That's it.  [00:14:02] Peter: Tell me about, so you've had several jobs. Yes. Right. And then I love this coaching, cheerleading, installing stoves and pools, retail, fast food, waitressing, barista, nursing assistant, assistant manager of a nonprofit. And no, and you make it clear, No, I didn't get fired from these jobs. I quit them all because my ADHD was bored after learning everything in those positions. So, yeah. And I get that. I had one job in my life and I'm like, No. But, um, you know, after, after the sort of magic wears off, right? At some point you gotta make a living. Yep. So what then?  [00:14:33] Karrisa: Uh, well, I, I guess I don't really share this, but I will. Um, so I do a lot of content creation, and I do get paid from all of that stuff, but, uh, I, I do have a core job, which is taking care of my mom, so I. Right now I take care of my mom and so I'm a certified nursing assistant. Okay. And that has been the, you know, the bill paying money, the I'm gonna be okay and I can step back and work on all of these things and Gotcha. You know, it, it's, it's a blessing to be honest, cuz not everyone gets to do this. Oh, totally. Or does a lot of people have to take care of their mom at a young age. So, I mean, like, that's kind of, you know, where, where I'm at, like, I don't work, other jobs anymore. I just create and it's so beautiful and I'm so blessed about it. [00:15:19] Peter: You know, it's interesting. I, um, I, I, I look at my, I I look at a lot of kids who are, who are, you know, influencers, whatever, whatever they wanna call themselves. I hate that term. And, um, you know, they're, they're, they're creating all this kind of thousands and tens and thousand likes and thousand likes. And occasionally they, they, they do a partnership with someone or whatever. And I know the, I know the industry. I know damn well. Yes. They're not making enough for a Starbucks once a day. No. Right. With that. And yet you'll never see that, You know, you'll never, you'll never, uh, hear about the fact that, you know, they're, they're also working, uh, you know, 8:00 PM to 4:00 AM as a security guard or doing whatever just to pay the rent. Yep. Right. It's like the, um, Uh, the real versus Instagram, whether, you know, the, the, the Instagram is like everything is beautiful and then the camera pans over to the other side of the room where it's just like a mess. Yep. Right? And so it, it's interesting because you have a lot of people who are out there trying to create content and I would never tell anyone not to do it and give it a shot, kick ass on it. But I would say have a backup plan. Yeah, I, And it seems, it seems like you managed to pull that off. You do have a backup plan. [00:16:17] Karrisa: Yes, I always do. I think it's just a security thing for me because, uh, growing up I didn't come from money, so having a backup plan has always been a thing. Like, I've been to college twice. I've been, you know, just thinking, Okay, what am I gonna do if this doesn't pan out? What if I'm, you know, like, but I have to also believe in it a hundred percent, or I'm not gonna give it my all. And I. So it's kind of like that fine line where you're like, Yes, I need to pay my bills, so I will work a nine to five, but I need to bust my ass doing the rest of this.  [00:16:46] Peter: Right. Are you a, um, are you a night owl? Yes. . I noticed that I, I saw the email came in around 2:00 AM so I figured, um,  [00:16:58] Karrisa: Yeah, Sorry about that, heh. [00:16:58] Peter: Why do you have to eat? And this, this goes to the, your last paragraph. Why do you have to have chocolate milk when you eat popcorn? That's a weird combination?  [00:17:04] Karrisa: Oh, . Well, okay, see, Um, I don't know where it came from. I've always been a, a child of weird combinations and, uh, I just, I can't have popcorn without it because I don't know. I need to wash it down with something sweet and chocolate like so amazing. And when you pair the two, it it hands down the best. No one would try it. No one ever tried it. They're like,  [00:17:26] Peter: I'm gonna try. I'm totally gonna try it tonight actually. I have some of my kids chalk the milk. I'm totally gonna try it. [00:17:30] Karrisa: There you go. I love that. Lemme know.  [00:17:32] Peter: And by the way, you're lefthanded as am I, as our most amazing people, so  [00:17:36] Karrisa: for real ?That's awesome actually. [00:17:38] Peter: I love that. I love it. Always drives my boxing coach crazy cuz he always says he, he takes his original position and I go left. God damn it. He has to switch around. Yep. So, so I guess I'll, I'll, I'll close it with this. I wanna be respectful of your time when you, you know, you're creating content and putting stuff out there in a world, especially in social, that isn't always that nice if ever, Right? Mm-hmm. and looking at the stuff that you're talking about, which is mental health, you know, from the beginning, um, tells people that yeah, you've had your share of hits in, in your life. You've taken some hits, you've had some issues, you've had some problems. Yet your goal in all of this, it's still to help people who, who are never able to get help for this on their own. Yeah. And that's really kinda altruistic. Right. Most people are kind of like, No, fuck you, man. I'm gonna get mine. And, and, and you know, I'm gonna get it. I mean, we live in a world right now where, where 15 governors are trying to stop, um, uh, student loan debt cancellation because everyone should pay their own share. I'm like, Well, that's a dick move, right? Yeah. So, so you're sitting here going, No, I wanna help people out. And that's the exact same reason I, I wrote Faster Than Normal and do this podcast, but there aren't a lot of us. So at the end of the day, Your value system is, is pretty unique, right? You're sitting there going, No, I wanna help people. And and does that come from anyone? Did that come from what, what, You know, based on, on the history that you told me about yourself that you shared, um, it doesn't sound like you were helped a lot. So where'd that come from?  [00:19:05] Karrisa: Uh, that's exactly why is because I wasn't helped a lot. I wasn't guided and I wasn't told that what I was going through was normal or you know, cuz my ADHD was, I, I did, I just got diagnosed with it in 2020. So like I didn't have help realizing that, oh my God. Like I went through school and stuff thinking I was so stupid because I learned a different way than other people, but I never knew that, so no one told me. And like I just had to go through the motions of doing things alone. So when I got a little older to understand what I was actually facing. And I started doing research on my own. I was like, there are so many other Me's out there that need help that don't have the finances for it. And I was like, maybe I can just share some of my stories and it could help. And it's just helped me too because it helps me get out of my head and it creates this community of amazing people that need help. And I'm just here and I'm just like, wanna give everybody a hug? And I just want people to be better mentally and understand that it's okay not to be okay.  [00:20:04] Peter: Yeah. I love that. I love that. Very, very cool. Very, very cool. How can people to find you? [00:20:10] Karrisa: Uh, they can find me on Instagram at Karissa Marie Official. You can find me also on YouTube as Karissa Marie and also my podcast, Finding Your Mind.  [00:20:21] Peter: Very cool. Leave all those in the show notes. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it today. [00:20:25] Karissa: Thank you so much for having me. You're awesome dude.  [00:20:28] Peter: Guys, Faster Than Normal wants to hear what you think. Let us leave us a note, shoot me an email. We've gotten a lot of guests because you guys have written in and said, Hey, talk to this person. So if you have any people, we should talk to peter@shakman.com. You know how to find me. We will see you next week. ADHD as Karissa has blatantly showed us today, is a gift, not a curse. And I will say that until the day I die. Stay tuned, keep in touch. We'll see you guys next week. Stay safe. Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Hey guys. Peter Shankman the host of Faster Than Normal here. I wanna invite you to something! I am hosting a Mastermind with 12 amazing speakers who are gonna be talking about everything from ADHD to mental health, from entrepreneurship, to just living your life better. It's gonna be on November 10th, It's gonna be virtual from anywhere in the world. Incredible, incredible speakers. The leading fitness trainer in Canada for all things. Me! A whole bunch of speakers- Scott Carney, who wrote the book which is to all about how he goes and takes ice showers every day. It's gonna be 12 amazing speakers, the CBS Early Shows' Jennifer Hartstein, really, really great people. And I'd like you to join us. Check out the link below in the show notes at ShankMinds 2022 and we will see you there. And a matter of fact, look for the discount code in the show notes as well, that'll take a hundred bucks off the cost. We'll see you soon! https://shankman.lpages.co/shankminds-virtual-2022/  DISCOUNT CODE:  SMFriends22 -- Southern California-born and bred Maitland Ward has quickly become one of the biggest stars in adult entertainment, after an-already successful career as an American model, actress and cosplay personality. After finding fame in the ‘90s on CBS soap The Bold and the Beautiful and smash ABC sitcom Boy Meets World, as well as a plum role in 2004's cult classic White Chicks, Ward decided to shake things up with racy social media content, sexy cosplay and appearing at fan conventions before making the leap into the adult film industry in 2019. The statuesque (5'10”) all-natural redhead is unique in that not only is she beautiful and built for the adult biz, Ward's talent as an actress means she can also carry dramatic and comedic scenes with ease. Her playful energy, professionalism and open sexuality earned her an exclusive performance contract with Vixen Media Group and the famous face of the brand's blockbuster studio, Deeper. In 2020, Ward won three AVN Awards for Best Supporting Actress, Best Three-Way Sex Scene-G/G/B for her work in Deeper feature Drive and Favorite Camming Cosplayer. She also won three XBIZ Awards for Crossover Star of the Year, Best Actress-Feature Movie and Best Sex Scene-Feature Movie, also for Drive.  In 2021 she scored two AVN Awards as well: Best Leading Actress for Deeper's Muse, as well as Best Boy/Girl Sex Scene for Higher Power, plus two XBIZ Awards for Best Acting-Lead and Best Sex Scene-Feature for Muse, and in 2022 she took home two XBIZ trophies for Best Acting-Lead for Muse 2 and Performer of the Year.  Ward's recent mainstream endeavors include starring and co-producing a TV series, The Big Time, taking on a lead role in psychological thriller Just for You and releasing an eye-popping no-holds-barred memoir about her wild life in the entertainment biz, Rated X: How Porn Liberated Me from Hollywood.    ——    In this episode Peter and Maitland discuss:     00:40 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 01:00 - Intro and welcome Maitland Ward!  IMDB bio 01:38 - So you're here in NYC promoting Rated X; let's talk about that! 02:00 - Despite all of your success at such a young age, you were not happy. Why? 04:00 - A lot of positive things have happened in the culture of Hollywood and beyond 04:45 - On hiding who you are, and why. A note on fear. 05:25 - When did you first realize, then decide you needed a change? 06:15 - About getting married an moving to NYC 06:50 - On figuring out that you're different 07:18 - Peter on how he explained to his father how he was quitting his day job 08:08 - When did you decide to make the switch from ‘mainstream to ‘adult' film? How did your peers react? 09:15 - About double standards 09:45 - Peter on breaking stereotypes for New Frontier Media at The Wall Street Journal 10:55 - How did it go when you started dipping your feet more into rated R, rated X Art? 12:28 - On building a fanbase in real time 14:00 - About her first full length feature and how that evolved  15:00 - How do you deal with the haters, how do you not focus on the bad reviews, trolls, etc? 15:55 - A tip about fan mail of any sort 16:55 - What's next for you? 17:35 - My how things have changed in twenty years, or even thirty! 18:52 - What do you do to get out of your head, to clear and re-center? 19:54 - Do you have any rituals or habits that must happen every day or else? 20:21 - How can people find more about you? Web: https://onlyfans.com/maitlandward Socials:  @MaitlandWard on Twitter  INSTA  FB  and @Maitlandtoks on TikTok Shout out to Brian at BSG Public Relations! @bsgpr on Twitter 20:57 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  21:21 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits  — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat:  [00:00:41] Peter: So Maitland, thank you for taking the time. I know you're on a busy schedule with your book tour in New York here. [00:00:46] Maitland: Yes. Thank you so much for having me. [00:00:47] Peter: How is New York, uh, treating you so far?  [00:00:49] Maitland: It's, it's been great. It's been a whirlwind, like, meeting with everybody and like, you know, just doing all of the, the. publicity, I guess you would say. It's, it's kind of like a machine. So I, I'm really having good time, but it's been very busy. I hope to have a little more like downtime to, to little freedom to go explore. More freedom. [00:01:03] Peter: Yeah. We're, we're a good city. We're coming back. You know, Covid was a bit here, but I did not, I could have least how many people are here now.  [00:01:11] Maitland: Yeah. It's definitely came back. Cause I had come, uh, to film something like a, I guess it was a little over a year ago, and, It was pretty bad. Yeah. Things were shut down.  [00:01:20] Peter: Still in, I'm at the point my daughter's, my daughter's class, like half the kids and their parents like went to their second and third homes and all that. Right now they're all back. I'm like, I'm like you. I kind of feel like you should pay an extra 50% tax on everything because you went down, left your most right. You left us right. But yeah, we're coming back. It's nice to see the city getting, getting back into form. We're, we're a good place. Um, so you're, you're here promoting burning rated X. Yes. Let's, so let's talk about that. So you have. The majority of people in Delta Entertainment, you have backstory, you have a history. You came, um, in mainstream media, right? Yes. You started Boy Me World. Yes. And, and of course White. It's one of my favorites because my friend Marlon's in it. That's so cool. And, and you know, you, but you weren't happy.  [00:01:59] Maitland: Yeah, it was an interesting thing because I started acting very young, uh, like 16 years old. I was on a soap opera and, uh, it was, it was a whirlwind experience at the time, but I really felt like I had to be a certain way all the time in Hollywood. Like I had to be a good girl. I had to, you know, be straighten narrow, like really, you know, be nice. That was a big thing. Be nice, and it, I think that was a dangerous thing for a Woman to be taught, like make them like you be nice. So, um, so I was, but I felt like I was always denying certain parts of myself to. You know, accommodate other people and, and Hollywood, you know, I got very lucky early on that I got a lot of jobs and, and high profile jobs. Uh, especially like when I got Boy Meets World and I was, I really wanted to like please everybody at Disney and the producers and everything. And I, um, but it was weird because on the show I was this sort of, not a sex object, but she was very, The U undertones were sexual, I guess. Right. And she was always the one dancing around in lingerie.   [00:03:08] Peter: And like you spoke about that, teasing the boys,you mentioned that in the, both the concept and your articles, the concept that, you know, Yeah. Here's Disney. Right. You know, pure, pure bread, Disney. Yeah. Um, the, the, the likes of which we all all know who comes from Disney. Everyone. Everyone. Wonderful and happy. And then, Yet they were putting you in situations that today, I think if we looked at them under the eye of 2022, right. We  [00:03:24] Maitland: question. Oh, absolutely. Like, like I say in the book, how I had to go up to the producer's office to try on lingerie for my lingerie scenes. So, and like not just once. I mean, there was 20 people in there, whatever, a big group. Mostly men. Uh, pretty much all men except for maybe one or, um, and then I would have to try on all of it and like, and I thought that this was my job to do this, and I never, at the time, I didn't even 0cConceptualize that it was a weird thing or it was ski or it was anything wrong with it. But then today you look at that, if that happened today and it went on the internet or anything, people would be fired for it Yeah.  [00:04:00] Peter: . Yeah. And I think that, you know, in a lot of ways, everyone, everyone complains about cancel culture and complains that, that were too high strung. But a lot of things, positive changes have, have resulted from not only people like you speaking out, but you know, all the way back to the Weinstein and, and things like that. Yeah. But at, at the time that you were doing it again, you were under. Let's just be a good girl. Let's just do the nice thing. Yeah. I didn't wanna, like, was it, was there a fear there that if you, if you acted the way you wanted to or if you acted the way you were, the way you thought you were supposed to, you'd be gone?  [00:04:29] Maitland: Yes, definitely. Oh yeah, always. I had very much anxiety about that kind of stuff, like very much anxiety that I wouldn't do the right thing, I wouldn't be the right way, or I wasn't good enough for the situation and I.  You know imposter syndrome. Yeah. May, Yeah, maybe. Yeah. . Yeah, I guess. But it was like, yeah, cuz I had to like kind of be this persona that I can't see all the time. I was not who I was like there, but in certain parts of myself, especially my sexuality and everything. And I had to hide like, Things that, you know, how I wanted to be exact cause I thought it was wrong or bad, or, you know, weird or, or they would judge me and come down on me. [00:05:07] Peter: Fear is a great motivator. Not necessarily in a good way, but fear is a, you know, I don't wanna lose my job, I'm gonna conform despite what it's doing to your mental health. Yeah. Right, right. So as you moved on and as you had different roles and, and at, at some. Was there a, I guess was there a moment where you just said, F this?  [00:05:28] Maitland: I mean, was it, was it, did it come all at once or how did it, And it's  interesting. Back at the time, I didn't think that it was having an effect on me in my mental health. Like I didn't conceptualize that. I thought it was just like there's something wrong with me that I. Wasn't doing things the right way, but, and looking back, writing the book, I really saw that in certain situations. Yeah. Um, so yeah, it was a long time, a long journey like finding myself, and it's interesting because of all, you know, pitfalls and disappointments that I had after I had a lot of success, like after white chicks and all that, when I was really typecast and things dried up and Hollywood would, they still wanted to keep me in the box that they had put me as a, like this good girl character, this, but they didn't wanna cast me cuz I was already a typecast character. Right. So, but they still wanted me there for like, whenever they needed a certain purpose for me, like a little episodic work or something like that. Um, so that became frustrating. So then I, I actually, that's when I moved to New York for a while. I got married and moved to New York. Okay. And it was kind of like a, it was a breath of fresh air to kind of get away from the Hollywood machine. I've heard that. Yeah. Because it was like, cuz when you're there you're just so caught up. Like, Oh, what, Who's going to this party? Right? What's this audition? Did you get that one? Like, did you book this one? And, uh, so, so getting away, I really like started to really discover myself and I started writing a lot and erotic writing. And I started really discovering my sexuality and stuff of, I guess not discovering it all the way Admitting it Okay. Is more of a thing because I think I knew all along that I, I, I just thought I was different and I thought I, like I say, I, I was a bad girl maybe inside , but, but I realized, you know, I'm not bad. It's kind of funny. My husband helped me realize that really. and he was very encouraging of me to explore this path that I really wanted to explore.  [00:07:17] Peter: I imagine so. I mean, I remember, and I, I guess I can't really equate much to it, but I've always imagined the, the day that I told my parents, I, I, I had one job in my life. I worked for, for America Online back in the nineties when, when a was the internet, right? Yeah. And I came back to New York and realized, They let us work anyway we wanted, which is why I did so well. My ADHD flourished cuz I was able to do, Oh, you wanna work at two in the morning? Great. As long as you get it done. Yeah. Yeah. Then I come back to New York and start working for a magazine and, and we have 8:00 AM meetings and 9:30 AM meetings and 10:00 AM editorial boards. And I'm like, What? This is Russia? And it, I, I quit within two. Yeah. And I remember telling my Dad, um, I'm gonna start my own PR firm and if it fails, and I actually said when it fails, when it fails, oh I'll get another. Cause I was so, who the hell am I to do anything, you know, entrepreneurial. And that was like 24 years ago. And I remember that was the scariest conversation I ever had have because I said, You know, I might need you to help pay my rent for a month or I might need what I didn't thank God, but you know, I got lucky and, and things were in. But tell us about the mindset when you decided you're gonna make this switch. You're gonna go from mainstream to adult, which to be, let's be fair, adult is kind of at this point, 2022, putting mainstream. Anyway, [00:08:20] Maitland: that's why it's so weird to say both things and I know we have to differentiate kind of, but, But it is weird that we have to differentiate.    [00:08:25] Peter: Right? So tell me about, Because you, you wrote a really interesting piece that I really enjoyed about your interaction with Elizabeth Berkeley. Oh, yes, I was Right. So tell us about that. [00:08:33] Maitland:  First, It was a very quick interaction. Yeah, but it was an interesting one. I, it was right after like the news broke that I was, Doing this big porn film and stuff. And I was in the industry and everything and I was, you know, walking out of the Whole Foods. And I saw her off to the side and she looks at me like, you know, our white eyes and they got wider. And I was like, and she had, I, I don't know, I think it was her husband at the time. I don't know if there's still, I don't know the situation. It was a man with her. Right. Um, and she, she just looks at and she turns to him and like whispers something like this and he looks, and it was such a weird like, situation to have them be like, Look at me like some sort of a, you know, beast down in the wild. [00:09:11] Peter: I'm sorry. And let's just, let's just be clear, this is Nomi Malone looking at you , right? This is the girl who, who went from Saved by the Bell, then Showgirls. So I'm, I'm not sure what she's actually looking at, where she comes off looking at you, everybody. So that really kinda pissed me off when I read that. The hell is she looking at you? [00:09:25] Maitland:  But it's a weird thing because once you go- when it's deemed adult, Right. It's different, right? Like in Hollywood films like now on like streaming shows and stuff, they go so close to it, of course.   [00:09:39] Peter: But, but they didn't go all the way. In 2003, um, I, I represented a company called New Frontier Media and, uh, New out of Denver, Ca, Boulder, Colorado, and New Frontier was the, this back in for porn was free, right? Yeah. Right. And, and, and they were the largest distributor of adult paperview on cable. Mm-hmm. . And I would go, I had my, I worked for them for four years and I took their stock price from like 99 to $10 because I forced my way into the Wall Street Journal and Forbes and Fortune. Mm-hmm. explaining, you know, I have a company who I'm repping, who is kicking the ass, their biggest competitor with Playboy. Yeah. By a factor of 10 x. Like, Oh, we great. They're adult. Oh, we can't touch that. I'm like, Why the hell not, not? It's so explaining when, and I got through and, and I remember getting New Frontier Media on the cover of Forbes was like, like the highlight. If that's my epi half right now. Yeah. The first porn company on Forbes. But, you know, but it was, it was the concept of, look, you, you, you're, it's one of those things that you're. Um, secretly. Yeah. Right. You're not gonna admit to it, but meanwhile, look at how much money is being driven. Yes. You know, let's, let's, let's look at something like Euphoria. Um, great show, but not really about the acting per se. Yeah. You know, there's, there's things we're looking at on that show that we know exactly what we're looking. Go onto Reddit. You're not gonna find, uh, uh, um, uh, reviews of the acting. You're gonna find one thing on your, you know, about your for. And so, so that being said though, it's a lot easier to say that then is to sort of tell us about, like, tell us about the day or whatever. [00:10:56] Maitland: It was, the moment where, All right, I'm doing this and, and  here we go. You know what, it wasn't like one certain moment. I mean it uh, it was cuz I started like exploring stuff on my social media sexy pictures and stuff. And this was along the time, by the time Girl Meet's World has spin enough appointments coming around, right? So there was a lot of attention and social media was really starting to really boom, like Instagram, especially in like Snapchat. And uh, so I started getting followers for like doing my sexy cosplay that I loved doing and doing bikini shots and all that stuff. Uh, but then I'd eventually. They started like taking down photos. Right. Actually, cuz a lot of people would complain for no reason to like these like fundamentalist types that watch, of course that are obsessed with like boy meets world being wholesome and wholesome and good and stuff. And uh, actually a lot of porn girls though suffer from people just, [00:11:46] Peter: Oh, of course for that question. [00:11:49] Maitland: Just taking their, I mean, look at the Visa MasterCard scenario. They had match  ridiculous. Um, so I kind of, my, my fans were like, Well, why don't you just sell content? And I didn't know what content was really at the time. I mean, I kind of heard of it, so I, but I said, Well, maybe, And I said, I'll start, I'll start a Patreon account, right? It's, you know, they patrons of your art. And I was gonna do like Playboy-esque type photos. I, I started the page and I, I didn't even like, Um, announced it. I just like did it one night and I said, ah, close it. Then the next morning there was like 20 people in there and then so I announced it and by the end of the week there was like 2,800 people. I was like, What? They're gonna buy my nudes, a create content.  [00:12:23] Peter: Holy shit! [00:12:24] Maitland: I know. And it was just like, then it kind of evolved from there. Cause I, I had been exploring like my sexuality and my writing and everything like that, so I was like, Oh, maybe I'll do. Girl, girl stuff then, and let's do this. And my fans responded and it was kinda like they were watch, they really were watching my journey along the way. Yeah. Like in real time. Um, and so then I, then I was like, What? You know, my husband and I had a big moment about when we said we're gonna have me do something with guys. So I, but I was so lucky. I found two guys in the porn industry who've been there so long, they were so professional. And they really like taught me along the way, like how would to do, this was a year and like almost a year and a half period before I got like a call from Vixon to do. Right. The black scene that went crazy viral. I might, might have been of, been , but it, but then I didn't even announce that to the press. It was all kind of just a internet moment.  [00:13:21] Peter: Oh, well by that moment you'd built, you'd built the audience.  [00:13:22] Maitland: Yes, but when I did. That's why everybody thinks I made this announcement. I just was saying I'm going to porn right now when I did the film drive for deeper.com. Mm-hmm. , which is Vic, one of Vic's brands. Um, but it was because I, the black team just blew up that, on that same day, Caden Cross, who, who is amazing performer and director in, in her own right, but she had started the brand deeper, right? Not very long before she had just, they just acquired the brand like four months or launched four months before, but she was doing her first feature. For it and, um, she lost her co-star on. The day my black scene came out. Oh wow. So, but she thought she'd have to quit the movie cuz you know, there's not a lot of people who can handle a lot of dialogue fast. And so, um, she went to Vixen and said, I think we're done with, we're not able to do it this year. And then they said, talk to Maitland. She just blew up and she can act. And then, so that really was, we did that and I decided, you know what, I'm really proud of this. I'm proud of the trailer, I'm proud of the whole thing of the feature, cuz full length features complete, you know, dialogue story. It was, um, so I did announce it to the press. That's went insane. And that's when everybody thought, Oh, she just made the switch all of of a sudden. It's always a backstory. Yeah. It's kind of like when people say, Oh my God, like they have a starring rule in something suddenly and they're like, You just showed up my imdb, but it's  [00:14:44] Peter: 30 years. [00:14:45] Maitland: I know I've been here forever.  [00:14:47] Peter: The everyone's like, You last company, you started this, sold it three years. It was 17 years of crap.  [00:14:51] Maitland: Yeah, no, that's what I mean.  [00:14:53] Peter: There's so much prep involved and so much time. Let me ask you this. One of the things that we touched on, and this is what I think my listeners can really relate to mm-hmm. um, being as out there as you. Right. Whether, whether it's it's on, uh, in Hollywood or, or in adult, there is a, how do you edit that out? How do you deal with the haters? How do you deal with the bad reviews? A lot of, when you're ADHD or ADHD or any sort of neurodiverse, yeah, be imposter syndrome is huge, but also, The premise that, I mean, I'll give a keynote to 10,000 people. Mm-hmm. , right? 9,999 of them will love it. There's one guy who didn't stand up for the standing ovation. That's all that I'm gonna think about for the next two weeks.  [00:15:27] Maitland:  I know. You know, what do you do? I used to be a lot more like that. Um, like I would get very, like, especially when I started doing sexier photos, like on Instagram stuff, I'd get those, like fundamentalist haters and stuff. I got very perked by it. I guess , that's the word. Um, but now I kind of. I don't embrace it. There's always like one or two trolls that just wants to attack you. Right? But I was actually told something early on when I was on the soap opera that the fan mail that we get, and I remembered this, like I really came to play with the trolls. No matter if it's good or bad, you're making an impact. If they didn't care, they wouldn't even be there. So it's, if you're not getting any attention or any feedback from people, that's cuz think about to be a troll, you have to be pretty investing.  [00:16:14] Peter: Exactly.  [00:16:15] Maitland: You watch people getting fired up about something, you're, you're making this connection. [00:16:18] Peter: Sounds like all the people who, who, when Nike came out to support Gay Rights, uh, everyone burned their Nike clothing. Okay. So yeah, just spend the a hundred bucks on sneakers and burn. Okay, cool. Cause you know, it's not like Maggie didn't make any money from that. That's true. That's true. But no, I, I, I've always said, if, if you don't have haters, you're not doing enough to change the status quo. [00:16:33] Maitland: That's, that's exactly good. That's, that's a perfect statement really. [00:16:37] Peter: So you just sort of put it outta your head. You're like, They're there, but  [00:16:40] Maitland: I try to, it means that I'm doing something. I mean, you know what always is kind of like, of course sounds the back. It's, Yeah, I don't like it, but, you know, but I try to, Yeah. Put it out my. And I do have some wonderful fans who will attack them, like nice backers. I don't even do all the work.  [00:16:52] Peter: There you go. Yeah. So  [00:16:54] Maitland: what's. You know what? I don't know. And, you know, well I really would like to sell the book rights and stuff cuz I, I think there's really potential there and we're working on that. And it's funny because ever since I have been in the Adult industry, I've actually had more opportunities, like people in mainstream coming to me and stuff. Like I shot a sitcom pilot last year. I'm like, yeah. So, uh,  [00:17:15] Peter: It's, it's, well, I think it's good timing for you also. I think that those barriers have definitely back from when I was repping in 2003, like it's definitely changed. [00:17:21] Maitland:  It's so changed and I really think it's because people have grown up with it on the internet. Yeah. Not grown up, but you know, when they get in there maybe.  [00:17:28] Peter: So, yeah, I remember. No, I, Believe me, I remember there was a bodega, um, on the corner where, where near, I grew up in the corner, I think it was 91st and Amsterdam with an owner who did not care what you bought or what you looked at, whether it was- that's funny- Beer or nudie mags. And I, you know, like the majority of kids in my, in my grade, like 86 to 90 in high school, 85 or whatever. I think we pretty much all found it through that mess, through that pod.  [00:17:50] Maitland: That's true. Yes. I know. I think kids today, they go online. [00:17:53] Peter: You don't have no idea how hard it was. [00:17:55] Maitland:  They just go online and that's so funny. But seriously, people in their twenties and thirties now, they're like, They're so open to it. And especially women. I am so surprised by the women that come up to me and they're like, This is so cool. I'm so glad you're doing this and making this change. And I, I think they feel like they can talk to me cuz I'm, I'm in, I was in their living rooms. Yeah. And I feel a little like a bridge or something between like, they can ask me questions. And people can feel a little safer talking to me about things they're curious about in the adult industry and stuff. But they all, Everybody watches it ?   [00:18:26] Peter: No. No question about it. But they, Yeah, I could tell you, I mean, I remember when I was wrapping the company had access to all their data and I could tell you what states and what cities and what towns in those states. Yeah. Um, spent the most money. Oh really? Uh, it was, yes. You know, little spoiler. It was always a red state. Yeah. Always. A And it was like the hardest portion of course. And then the hardest core stuff. Another the one- oh, this is terrible! Right. Then they go right home. They spend a hundred bucks. Exactly. Um, that's, So tell us what you do Last, last couple questions to keep this brief. Tell us what you do to get out of your head. So do you exercise? Do you, what is your thing when you, when you're like, Oh my God, I gotta, I'm, I'm, I'm gone. See an hour, see in two hours. See you here. What do you..  [00:19:03] Maitland: I actually trained to be a yoga teacher. Oh wow. I'd never taught, but I did it for myself. And that was actually after I came back from New York and I was really, that helped me discover a lot for myself too, to really like, get like out my head and really like, you know, meditate, I guess, and like do the practice. So I do do that. I really like to do that. I like to play with my dogs and stuff; most, the most innocent fun. I think that they just don't care. They just, they like, no matter what is going on in the world, they're just happy to be with you. And I think that's, Yeah. So I think I do, I like to do that, but um, and I like to, I like to read a lot and I like to, um, you know, I listen to music and watch them try to like, and not distract myself, but like, just to calm and relax. Yeah. Because yeah, sometimes I get stressed out with everything going on and stuff, so I really need to like, Just mellow down. [00:19:53] Peter:  Do you have any rituals or, um, habits that absolutely must happen every single day?  [00:19:59] Maitland: No, I don't think so. Not every single day. I mean, does coffee count ?  [00:20:04] Peter: Yeah, coffee counts.   [00:20:05] Maitland: Okay. Coffee's right up there with exercise. Sure. Why not? Yeah. And like exercise. Yes and no. I don't always get to do that, but I, but I do. But, um, yeah, I think coffee, coffee's my ritual. .  [00:20:17] Peter: I think coffee is a perfect way to end anything. So, So definitely this interview, Maitland Ward. Thank you so much. Um, tell us how people can find you? Web: https://onlyfans.com/maitlandward Socials:  @MaitlandWard on Twitter  INSTA  FB  and @Maitlandtoks on TikTok [00:20:23] Maitland:  Oh, on all of the social media is Maitland Ward, except I do have a TikTok now which I just started,  [00:20:29] Peter: listen, it's, I'm like the only person that, that Asia's not following their, you know, stealing their, oh my gosh, stealing their files. [00:20:34] Maitland: I, I'm so good at it yet, but we're It's MaitlandTok, because somebody had my name,  [00:20:40] Peter: Ah, someone took your name, you. You can probably fight and get that back if you want. [00:20:41] Maitland:  Yeah, I actually am working on that, but Awesome. Um, but yeah, it's funny. So yeah. But everywhere else is my name.    [00:20:52] Peter: Folks, the book is called. “Rated X: How Porn Liberated Me from Hollywood”. This is a wonderful, wonderful interview. Thank you so much, Maitland Ward for taking the time! Guys, as always, thanks for listening. We appreciate you being here. This one went a little longer. Normally we cap at 20 minutes because you know, #ADHD but we went a few minutes longer and I think that's awesome. And wanna give big shout out to Maitland Ward and to, Brian Scott Gross putting us together. Brian runs the amazing PR firm, uh, BSG Public Relations He's pretty awesome. He lives out in California. A really short guy though, but really nice guy, . And anyway, , thrilled that you took the time, and really, really grateful guys. We'll see you again next week. Thank you for listening. Talk to you soon. Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Ashley Brown teaches Coastal Kayaking, Stand Up Paddleboarding, and Instructor Development at the College of Charleston. She has developed these paddlesports courses over the past decade to include Sustainability Literacy and a First Year Experience course with a Biology class. Learning about sustainability and sharing it with the students led Ashley to start a Masters of Art at Prescott College in Outdoor Education Leadership. She only has a few more classes before she finishes her degree. Ashley shares her passion for teaching kayaking at all levels and challenging people to test their limits while learning and having a ton of fun. She has been developing a curriculum in Kayaking, SUP, and Instructor Development at the College of Charleston, where Ashley serves as an Adjunct Professor.  Ashley is the recipient of the American Canoe Association 2019 Excellence in Instruction Award.  This award is presented annually to an ACA member for outstanding contributions to paddlesports education and instruction. She earned the prestigious Level 5 American Canoe Association Advanced Open Water Coastal Kayaking Instructor Certification and is also an ACA Level 4 Kayak Instructor Trainer, Canoe Instructor, and L2 Standup Paddleboard Instructor. Ashley serves as a member of the executive committee of the Safety, Education, and Instruction Committee for the American Canoe Association. She loves to travel and has gone from Canada to Mexico and beyond, sharing her talent and knowledge with clubs, groups, schools, outfitters, events, and symposiums. Residing in Charleston, SC, she enjoys welcoming guests from all over the world to paddle in Charleston's beautiful waterways.  One of her favorite venues is the “Edge of America”, the Atlantic Ocean off Folly Beach.  She provides paddlers an opportunity to have an exciting experience and widen their perspectives. Today we're talking about how and why she got diagnosed, how an ADHD/ADD brain can often serve as a prerequisite, and what being buoyant may do for the ADHD in you! Enjoy! ——  In this episode Peter and Ashley discuss:   00:45 - Thank you so much for listening and for subscribing! 00:50 - Apologies for the near horrid audio- Peter is in a tourist-filled lobby today. 01:05 - Intro and welcome Ashley Brown! 01:53 - When were you first diagnosed and how did it happen? 03:00 - What was the first big change you felt after your diagnosis? 03:56 - What inspired you to seek out aquatic sports & activities; and to teach them? 05:33 - Do you experience sort of a rebirth every time you go kayaking; like I do when skydiving or running? 06:00 - On the good kind of exhaustion and a completely focused flow.  07:18 - How does scanning a wave, being outdoors and on the water help your ADHD? 08:56 - I had never thought of ADHD/ADD as a requirement for something! For what else could ADHD possibly be a prerequisite? 09:40 - On the importance of physical movement! 11:30 - How can people find more about you? [Ashley isn't a public figure but you can check into her courses via Web: www.wavepaddler.com and on their Facebook page here] 12:34 - Guys, as always thanks so much for subscribing! Do you have a cool friend with a great story? We'd love to hear. I'm www.petershankman.com and you can reach out anytime via email at peter@shankman.com or @petershankman on all of the socials. You can also find us at @FasterNormal on all of the socials. It really helps when you drop us a review on iTunes and of course, subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already! As you know, the more reviews we get, the more people we can reach. Help us to show the world that ADHD is a gift, not a curse!  19:08 - Faster Than Normal Podcast info & credits  — TRANSCRIPT via Descript and then corrected.. somewhat: [00:00:38] Peter Shankman good morning. I am coming to you today from the lounge at a Hilton in Midtown Manhattan because, uh, my apartment was supposed to be finished two weeks ago for all my renovations and it's not, and I am living the Dylan McKay life here in New York Hilton in Midtown. For those not old enough to understand what the Dylan McKee lifestyle is? Well, look it up. Your parents knew. Anyway, welcome to another episode Faster Than Normal. Uh, I apologize in advance for all the background noise. Ashley Brown is joining us today. Ashley, get this we're going outdoors today, even though I'm sitting in a lounge in mid Manhattan, we're going outdoors. The great big ocean. to the coast. We're gonna talk to Ashley Brown who teaches coastal kayaking standup paddle boarding and instructed development of the college of Charleston. She's ADHD. She's developed these paddle sports courses over the past decade to include sustainability literacy and her first year experience course to the biology class. This is a very, very cool stuff. She got diagnosed when her kid did, as we hear so much about .Ashley, welcome to Faster Than Normal. Let's talk about some outdoors and how it relates to ADHD.  [00:01:39] Ashley: Hi! Hi, thank you so much for having me. And, um, I am really excited to talk to you. I've enjoyed listening to your podcast and I have to admit I'm a bit nervous. I hope that I hope this goes well.  [00:01:51] Peter: . You're gonna be, you're gonna be fine. Don't worry about it. So tell me when you tell me when you first got diagnosed and how did it happen?  [00:01:56] Ashley: Um, my daughter was in around third grade and, um, she had hit like unbelievable benchmarks in, in, in intelligence as a, as a little kid, you know, when they do those, pull you out, testing things to put 'em in gifted and talented and stuff. And then suddenly she couldn't read, you know, she wasn't reading, uh, at her, at her pace had had had just stopped. So we discovered that she had dyslexia and, uh, ADHD, and, uh, as we are moving through all those, those categories, I'm going, yep. That's me. That's me. That's me. And of course, this is something that, um, I, I understand a lot of adults have had that experience. So, so I got diagnosed when she got diagnosed and, uh, same thing, dyslexia, ADHD, and, uh, it's, it's interesting to hit it at, you know, 40 versus eight, you know, so  [00:02:55] Peter: I was gonna say, so you lived your life, not knowing anything about it, sort of similar to the way I did. I didn't get diagnosed in my late thirties and, um, what was the, what was sort of the first cha big changes that you saw in yourself once you, once you got that diagnosis?  [00:03:06] Ashley: Um, changes in myself, I guess, I guess maybe just like forgiving myself for being me, I don't know. Um, like suddenly. [00:03:20] Peter: That's actually a, that's a pretty huge answer. A pretty huge answer. Cause a lot of people don't realize that I, I went through the same thing. [00:03:25] Ashley: Yeah, no, I, uh, I always just, you know, why can't you do your taxes on time? Why can't, why do you have to work at a de at a critical deadline? Like, why can't you do this ahead of time? Like, um, so many of. So many other things that ADHD, people struggle with. Like, um, and I, I guess I cut myself a little more slack, not enough, not, not enough, but a lot more slack than I used to. Like now I have a reason, you know? [00:03:53] Peter: Well, we'll never cut ourselves enough slack that's for darn sure. But, okay. So tell me about how outdoors, how did you, first of all, how'd you get started in, in the classes of paddle boarding and kayak and all that, all that stuff outdoors. And what prompted you to say, Hey, there should be, there should be a school or classes. [00:04:07] Ashley: Well, um, so it, the, all the school and the classes are there it's, um, I didn't create that, but I just brought it in a different venue. So, um, I, um, I was, I, my first career was an artist and an art teacher and I was, uh, teaching. and it, it just, it just, you know, it, it's a pretty punishing, um, field. Uh, and I, I, I never was super successful with it. And then teaching children and then having children, it was just so many children and so much mess in my life that I, uh, I had a neighbor who said, Hey, you should come kayaking. And I went kayaking with a bunch of adults who I didn't have to clean up after. And I was like, ah, I can do this. And I, um, I just made some, made some major changes and I really went. Uh, full force into kayaking and stand and, uh, and then loved it. And I live in a place I live in Charleston, South Carolina, and, um, there is nothing but water around here. So there's so many places to explore and so many, uh, dynamic environments to, uh, get to know. So, um, I shifted from teaching, uh, children to taking people on kayak tours and all this stuff. And then, um, I met an instructor with the College of Charleston and, and. Uh, opened up some doors to me and I, I ended up with a full-time job teaching, uh, paddle sports at, uh, college level.  [00:05:31] Peter: I'm gonna go into a limb and say that paddle boarding or paddle sports or anything like that is similar for the brain as skydiving or running is for me. Would that be correct? Are you, is it a rebirth for you every time you do.  [00:05:42] Ashley: Rebirth. Hmm. I don't know. I don't know, rebirth and it, and it, and it is exciting and fun. And particularly when you do surf, so I'm guessing that skydiving and, and actually hearing that crashing wave behind you kind of stuff is this is similar. [00:05:57] Peter: Tell me how you feel when you're done. You come back to land.  [00:05:59] Ashley: The good exhaustion. Just space, that's it? Yeah. That's yeah. Um, so, and, and when I, when I bring people into it, I love their, uh, reaction to it. And I love the layering cuz. And I think that this is one of the things that I was that I wrote to you and the reason I wanted to, to talk to you, and I think that the layering of, of understanding the environment and watching the student and understanding where the student is is, has it. It it's that flow, right? Where you, where your brain is working on all the levels in the environment you're in. This is, this is probably the only thing I've ever done, where I wasn't also having a conversation with, you know, somebody from a year ago and writing a grocery list, you know, at all three going on at the same time. So, so it is the only place where my entire, where all of my attention is, is layered into there. So, so I love that. And then that puts me in that good exhaustion. [00:06:56] Peter: Well, there's a level of focus there, right? I mean, you absolutely, you have no choice. You have to look at what you're doing. You have to focus on what you're doing. You have to pay attention to what you're doing. You can't do a hundred of those things. It's the same thing with skydiving and, and for people with ADHD, we don't often realize that we realize that is the, the level at which we thrive!  [00:07:11] Ashley: Right. Exactly. Exactly. It's um, it is definitely the level where you thrive. [00:07:18] Peter: Tell me about, um, how it helps, how doing that helps your ADHD. Tell me about, uh, sort of how your brain reacts to that kinda stuff to, to being outdoors, to being on the water, to, to scanning the wave.  [00:07:29] Ashley: Okay. Um, so, so I came in to ADHD later, I did not understand the dopamine thing. Um, Prior to it, but now I understand and I, and I seek the, and I identify the things that give me that pleasure, that dopamine rush. So sometimes you're bored out of your mind of course, but then when you, when you can find the things that are giving you pleasure, like the, like moving very quickly through the water or looking at a reflection of a surface and, and, um, and so seeking those things has, or, or, you know, seeking that experience through somebody else's experience. So I'm watching, I'm watching 20 year olds figure out how to make their body work in a new way and how to make a boat, move, move through waves and stuff in a, in a, um, in a, something that they're not familiar with. It is, it is exciting in, and then that really does feed the, um, that dopamine receptor, I suppose. And, um, gives me a pleasure that, that, uh, I don't know that I, that I, I guess I had is with an art with art, but I had gotten so done with it with art. But anyway, um. [00:08:40] Peter: That's a good answer. I wanna read something that you wrote in, in your email to me, you said, I think that or ADHD is practically a requirement for outdoor educators. They problem solve on the go keep people safe while putting them in intentionally risky situations and manage their expectations to keep it engaging, but not scary. You know, I've never thought of it that way. ADHD is a requirement for something, right. We always look at it as a gift and, and, and something beneficial. I've never thought it as a requirement. I wonder what other things a ADD could be a requirement for? What do you think?  [00:09:08] Ashley: Um, gosh, I don't know. Um, the, the it's back to that multi layering thing, it's, it's, it's seeing some body and their process and a situation that needs your undivided attention as well. So probably teaching someone to skydive or teaching someone to do other things that are risky. Um, Ropes courses. Those are, yeah, those,  [00:09:32] Peter: I mean, I think, I think along the lines that, that, you know, one of the things about ADD & ADHD is we have that incredible power to hyper focus. Right. Right. When we want to focus on something, we are there 100%. And I don't think that a lot of, a lot of people, without ADHD, really understand how that works. And so I think in that regard, it's probably very beneficial for us. Um,  [00:09:50] Ashley: you know, and also the busy bodiness like the, the physical, um, Busyness is, is, uh, is key. So I think a lot of people that, that engage in that, like that come to an outdoor education experience and enjoy it, but don't want to be in it constantly. They need to think while sitting still or being still. And I, and I, I don't know how you are, but I never stop moving so it's a, it's a perfect thing for me to, to keep moving, to keep thinking. I,  [00:10:22] Peter: I think it's the same it's same reason. Yeah. It makes perfect sense. It's the same reason that, you know, my, my parents always told me as a kid, no listening to music while you're studying, but it turns out that listening to music is actually the best possible thing. Someone like us could do. No question about. [00:10:33] Ashley: Absolutely. And like, um, um, teaching kids. Well, my own children. Teaching kids like the multiplication tables or reading stories out loud or whatever, when they were tiny. If they, it, my, my little one was jumping around the whole time and, and I, and I would go, you know, what did I just say? And she could repeat it, back like just like word for word. But if I, you know, she just couldn't sit still to do that. So. No question. And, and I related to that, so I didn't try to get her to sit still. I went to Catholic school and I was required to sit still. So ,  [00:11:09] Peter: I went to school in the seventies and I was, yeah, in the seventies, it was sort of the same way. And lemme tell you something that didn't work really well for me either. No. And that was a public school too.  [00:11:17] Ashley: Not a big fan of the sitting still  [00:11:20] Peter: Ashley, how could people find out more? How can they find you? Do you have an Instagram, you have things where people could find your great, you sent me some great photos of paddle boarding and all that stuff. The places people could find this stuff? [00:11:28] Ashley: Um, so I have a website wave paddler.com and, um, I am, I, I actually am not I'm, I'm not a public personality in the, in this, in the way that you are. I don't have something that I'm trying to convey to people. [Ashley isn't a public figure but you can check into her courses via Web: www.wavepaddler.com and on their Facebook page here] Um, I just loved your show and I wanted to talk with you. And, uh, and, um, I don't know. I really do appreciate my ADHD! [00:11:51] Peter: Good enough. Yeah. As you should, we're trying to change the world. Not everyone has to be a celebrity and everyone has to be, uh, famous. We could be like, you know, regular normal people, just, just doing the best they can with the tools that they've been given. Ashley Brown. Thank you so much for sticking around and coming on the show and, uh, stay on the water and keep having fun! [00:12:07] Ashley: Thank you. You too! Come and paddle with me sometime.  [00:12:09] Peter: Most certainly will. Guys, as always, we've been listening the fast than normal. Sorry again about the background. Apparently every loud person, who's a tourist in New York happens to be in this lounge right at this very moment. But I'm hoping that the next time we talk, I'll be back in my apartment where it's much quieter. We will see you next week. If you like what you heard, leave us a review in any of the stations, any of the places you download your podcasts. My name is Peter Shankman  @PeterShankman all the socials. And thank you for listening. We'll see you next week. ADHD is a gift not a curse. Credits: You've been listening to the Faster Than Normal podcast. We're available on iTunes, Stitcher and Google play and of course at www.FasterThanNormal.com I'm your host, Peter Shankman and you can find me at shankman.com and @petershankman on all of the socials. If you like what you've heard, why not head over to your favorite podcast platform of choice and leave us a review, come more people who leave positive reviews, the more the podcast has shown, and the more people we can help understand that ADHD is a gift, not a curse. Opening and closing themes were composed and produced by Steven Byrom who also produces this podcast, and the opening introduction was recorded by Bernie Wagenblast. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week!

Peter Evans is an advisor, consultant, and speaker to legacy families, family offices, and multigenerational enterprises all around the world. Peter creates the opportunities where affluent families have the greatest chance of flourishing. Peter is also part of a legacy family himself; he is a 5th generation member of a 7th generation American enterprise established in 1885. Peter married into this family and was astounded by the welcoming and inclusive nature of his wife's large family. The family enterprise is now a holding company with over 500 shareholders, all of whom are family members. Of particular interest are the Family Summits held annually, which are designed to re-engage family members, partake in family traditions and rituals, discuss philanthropy and reset for the year ahead. Peter shares his experience of what it was like to join a well-established legacy family and how he has used this unique experience to pivot his career and help other legacy families flourish. Standout Quotes: * "We can't really plan significantly for longer than 5-10 years, you just learn that along the way, things change; the world changes" - [Peter] * "I'm really interested in making sure that the family's values are aligned with their actions" - [Peter] * "To have some sort of formal way of telling stories, I think, is critical" - [Peter] * "The most important thing you'll do are these rituals" - [Peter] * "If we have the privilege of having wealth and means, we have an obligation to give back" - [Peter] Key Takeaways: * Peter is the 5th generation member of a 7th generation American enterprise established in 1885. He is an adviser, consultant, and speaker to legacy families, family offices, and multigenerational enterprises globally. He became a part of the family when he married his wife and was included. * The company began as a group of lumber companies started by two brothers who liquidated everything after 45 years to invest with their partner, Friedrich Weyerhäuser in 1901. Peter's family had continued to be involved with the business as it expanded, although there were no male heirs in the second generation, till the 3rd generation. The family later started a private trust company in 1964, at which point they became the 3rd largest retailer of building materials in the US. * Today with diversification, they are now a holding company with over 500 shareholders, all of whom are family members. Peter's children are already involved with the family business actively and eagerly look forward to partaking in the annual family meetings. * The Family Summit: This annual family meeting usually runs over 3-5 days, on the same weekend every year, with activities like the coming-of-age ritual and elders' ritual, Olympic games, business meetings, philanthropy group meetings, and talks by guest speakers. The goal is to make it so interesting that people want to come back. * Planning Never Stops; the family forms a long-range planning committee every 5 years to have a clean slate to think through everything. A pattern of liquidating a significant resource once every 20 years was also observed; this 'Generational Harvest' would provide liquidity to each shareholder, giving them the freedom to make their own investments. * The family investments today are largely in Real Estate, like residence halls or low-income housing units, all intentionally inclined towards 'doing well by doing good' which is a value the family holds. * Peter left his role as president of the family enterprise in 2003 and has since then helped other family enterprises manage their multigenerational interests. He believes families with vast amounts of capital can make decisions that affect millions of lives and works to ensure that these families act in accordance with their values. "I can hold a mirror up to you so that you can begin to see yourself, your family system, and your footprint in the world; the other thing I can do is open the window so that you can look out into the world and see how other families made choices during different transitions" * Peter's most satisfying work is sitting with family members and watching the interactions; his work is focused on helping build bridges in communication and relationships. His role is a position between being a business consultant, priest, and therapist all of which require a deep level of trust and respect. At its core, his work is about relationships. * Peter's role as a 'Personne de confiance': This is a confidential advisor based on their trust, respect, and honesty. The way to get into that role is to come into the family that needs help, taking time to build trust and confidence. Very often Peter has to model a way of doing things like chairing a meeting, inclusion, and effective decision-making while keeping in mind that the goal is to pass on the mantle of leadership. Most of the time, the G2 generation is the one that reaches out to him, however, in some cases when the patriarchs are comfortable giving up authority, this spurs the G2 to take up the mantle and learn how to hand over to G3. Sometimes, the G2 has even already made the transition in their lifetime, adapting to the values and culture while the G3 grows up having a completely different experience. * Storytelling is critical in documenting family history. Peter uses this both in his family enterprise and while working with others. His family works with a full-time archivist who helps research the lives of people such that detailed questions can be asked and stories can be told more deeply. It also offers an opportunity to share lessons from the failures, trials, and tribulations of family members. * While still active in his family he was always open to learning from other families and when he left his role, he wanted to be involved in creating the consciousness in families that they can impact the world. Based on Peter's background, he has the experience which gets him into those family spaces after which he starts work. * From Peter's experience, when it comes to cultural mindsets like having female leaders, and diversity, there is a lot more openness in the US than in most other places. Although he tries to encourage such views, some cultures are just not ready for it. However, families of significant or multigenerational wealth are naturally global these days, hence it is becoming increasingly difficult to avoid influence from other cultures. * Family Rituals are the most important way to bring the family together continuously over the years because they help young people feel acknowledged. Peter's family has a children's program packed with several activities that keep them eager to return. After the age of 14, they can start going to business meetings. These activities help the family familiarize themselves with teenagers and create a more welcoming environment in the business meetings. * It is necessary to identify who is family and the kinds of roles available to different members. Each family does this differently, but Peter's family has selected the option of Inclusion. * Building Family Governance starts with having a reliable cadence of meetings quarterly, as well as major annual gatherings; this goes hand and hand with excellent communication. The next step would be to memorialize family values and have a direction and then this can be the foundation of a constitution. The constitution is a living document and should be examined and changed as required. * Peter also uses the concept of the "5 Capitals" within his family and the families he works with. * Philanthropy is another tool Peter has been familiar with. It is fun to watch families come together to figure out ways to give back based on their different interests and drives. * Very often, families look at their business as heirlooms which begs the question "Is the business an heirloom or an investment?" Sometimes it is hard to sell a business because it's been our identity for years; thus, selling is easy if the business is only an investment but if it functions as an heirloom then it may not be advisable. In some situations, the business is on the spectrum in-between, which means only certain objects or aspects may be more valued as an heirloom. Mike's family takes pictures yearly on the same spot on a piece of land which over time has taken up the role of an heirloom too. * From Peter to his children: "This is your life, do what you love and do it often. If you don't like something, change it; if you don't like your job, move on. If you don't have enough time, stop watching TV. If you're looking for the love of your life, stop, they'll be waiting for you when you start doing the things you love. Stop overanalyzing; life is simple. All emotions are beautiful, when you eat, appreciate every last bite. Open your mind, arms, and heart to new things and people; we are united in our differences. Ask the next person you see what their passion is, and share your inspiring dream with them. Travel often; getting lost will help you find yourself. Some opportunities only come once so seize them. Life is about the people you meet and the things you create with them, so go out and start creating. Life is short, live your dream and share your passion." Episode Timeline: * [00:52] About today's guest, Peter Evans. * [02:44] Peter shares his family history. * [07:10] What makes your annual family meetings appealing to the younger generation? * [12:28] Does a value system guide the investment making decisions? * [14:00] Peter's work helping other family enterprises. * [18:40] Peters role as a 'Personne de confiance'. * [24:22] Family Storytelling as a tool in Peter's work with family enterprises. * [29:08] Was it your experience with your own family that led you to work with other families? * [31:39] What are some of the differences in culture that showed up during your work with different families across the world? * [34:50] How important is it to have traditions that bring the family together? * [38:41] Who is a Family member? * [39:17] Building blocks of Family Governance. * [44:10] Philanthropy in the family enterprise. * [46:16] How shared experiences come into family meetings. * [48:14] What is the role of Heirlooms in the family enterprise? * [50:47] Peter's letter to his kids. For more episodes go to BusinessOfFamily.net (https://www.businessoffamily.net/) Sign up for The Business of Family Newsletter (https://www.businessoffamily.net/newsletter) Follow Mike on Twitter @MikeBoyd (https://twitter.com/MikeBoyd) If you feel it's appropriate, I'd so appreciate you taking 30 seconds to Leave a Review on iTunes (http://getpodcast.reviews/id/1525326745), I receive a notification of each review. Thank you! Special Guest: Peter Evans.

Perspectives - Peter Singer SHOWNOTES[00:09:00] I present to you, Mr. Peter Singer. Thank you for joining us today. Peter: You're very welcome, Sharon. It's good to be with you. Remi: Thank you. So, I'd like to get started. I'm really curious to know what you're currently thinking about and working Peter: on right now, I'm working on a revised edition of Animal Liberation.That's a book that I first published in 1975. It's never been out of print but the most recent edition really is from 1990. By that, I mean, there are, there are editions which looked like this or recent. There's 2009, when I think exactly that's, that's one of the paperbacks, it does have a new preface and it has some additional material at the end, but the basic text in between the preface and the supplementary material at the end.Is pretty much unchanged for 30 years. So that's not good, obviously. If you want to keep up with what's going on in terms of factory farming kinds of experiments that are performed on [00:10:00] animals and of course the impact of climate change and what that's done to our thinking about eating meat.We really, you know, I really need to make some changes, a lot of changes to the book. So that's my current project. Remi: Well, I wasn't going to stop it, but we will. And we'll talk about it. Animal Liberation and your book, you released it in 1975 and the landscape of animal liberation or animal welfare was very different than can you paint a scene of what it was like and what was the impetus for writing this one ended up being a completely transformational book for animal welfare around then.Peter: Well, price is one way of getting people who are listening today to see how much the scene has changed is to say that my interest in animals and my thinking about the ethics of what I was eating got started just a few years before that in 1970 to be precise. When I happened to have a conversation with a fellow graduate students.So, I was 24 [00:11:00] years old. I was, I'd been to university in Melbourne and then I'd gone to Oxford to do my graduate work. And I happened to meet a fellow Canadian who when we went in for lunch, asked if there was meat in the sauce on top of the spaghetti. And when he was told there was, he took a salad plate instead And so after we'd finished our conversation, we were having I asked him what his problem with meat was.And you know, I think this was really the first conversation I'd had with a vegetarian. Maybe he was the first vegetarian that I'd met or perhaps I'd met some Indian vegetarians for Hindu reasons, but certainly the first person who I'd met a vegetarian, who just had a straightforward kind of ethical answer to that question that he didn't like the way we treat animals and didn't really want to be complicit in the way animals were being treated.And so, you know, anybody who. Listening to that. I was been a university. You can hardly get their head around the fact that you can be 24 years old and not have met a vegetarian and not really thought about that. [00:12:00] But that's how it was. And that's pretty much how it was in 1975 when the book came out.And you know, people did find it very strange to see a sort of serious argument about why we shouldn't be eating meat based on concern for the animals. Because you know, if people thought about animal welfare at all, they thought about dogs and cats maybe about horses, but they didn't really think about chickens and pigs and calves.Remi: Yeah. Part of what you described when you talk about that book and why it came about, which I really loved was it was a very sentimental attitude in the movement at the time. And the way you felt that you could contribute to the movement was with. You didn't say clear thinking with rationality. Can you speak a little bit to that for those rare individual, listening to this podcast who doesn't know who you are or the work that you've contributed to our planet and to our thinking, what was the thinking back then that led you to believe this is where I can contribute.And maybe this will be a way to start [00:13:00] introducing consequentialism and utilitarianism and some of your other philosophical bedrock. Peter: Right? So, in terms of, you know, how I can contribute it was sort of somewhat accidental that I ended up doing philosophy. I had gone to university planning to study law and then an advisor thought.Find the law course a bit dry. And why didn't I combine it with an arts course? So, I started doing combined dance law course. Then I got to enjoy the outside of it more and I got offered a scholarship to go on with graduate work in that field Went into philosophy. I enjoyed it. I found it interesting.But you know, it, wasn't going to make a significant contribution to the world. I wasn't, you know, I couldn't say that that was my primary motivation at that time, but this was the late sixties and then early seventies. And of course, there were a lot of radical ideas around and radical political movements including opposition to the war in Vietnam, which I was part of in Australia.[00:14:00] And then there was the civil rights movement, the black liberation movement. And so, there were ethical ideas floating around and it was always more the ethics and political philosophy side of philosophy that I was interested in that was. Where, where it makes a difference, I guess, where it has an impact on the way we live directly.So that's, that's why, when, when I started thinking about this issue of animals and then as you correctly say at that time there wasn't a real animal movement or in so far as there were anti-cruelty organizations mostly appealing to people's sentiments. So, there would be cute pictures of puppies and kittens and asking you to help rescue them, something of that sort.But there was, there was nothing really saying that even if you don't love animals there are still something seriously wrong about the way we are treating animals. And I never did think of myself as an animal lover and I still don't. But I do think that there are things very seriously wrong about [00:15:00] the way we treat animals and on a vast scale.So this is not a small issue, right? When you take account of the fact that there's over 70 billion animals raised and killed for food each year, the great majority of them indoors in factory farms. It's the very major issue. Remi: One of the things I like about sentimentality when it comes to animal welfare is it can get the conversation started.So, you have a very rational and I'd love you to speak more about utilitarianism. Aspect to it, which I really admire, but I didn't get to my 18 years ago, I became a vegetarian and vegan for a while. I didn't get there because of the reasons you've given that it's the right thing to do. And it reduces the most suffering or increases the most pleasure I got there because my health suffered, and I went on an elimination diet and I needed to find recipes for a vegan.And there were barely any 20 years ago. And in reading recipes, I read about animal welfare. So, the way I got there was very indirect. So, what role do you think can be [00:16:00] played in sentimentality or in other roads that get us to the conclusions you've come to?Peter: Well, of course, a lot of people do get to these conclusions through.Love for animals in one way or another. One of the greatest campaigners in the late 20th century for animals was a man. I got to know called Henry Spira. And, and he was a great social activist working for blacks in the American south and for underprivileged people everywhere. But he only started to see animals as underprivileged when a friend who was going overseas, dumped a cat on him.And he never really thought about animals, but basically the cat seduced him. And, and, you know, more or less around that time, he came across some of my writing and that, that did help. But you know, yeah, without the cat, maybe we would have lost one of those great container campaigners.I'm not putting down a love for animals at all. I think it's a, it's a great way to get people to understand that animals are individual beings, that their lives can go well or badly for them. [00:17:00] And that we should be caring about them. We shouldn't just draw the boundaries of moral concern around our own species.So yeah, it definitely plays a good role, but you know, you asked about my utilitarianism. So philosophically I hold the view that the right thing to do is the action that will have the best consequences and by best consequences I, and the classical utilitarian's mean do the most to promote happiness and reduce suffering.So, from that it straightforwardly follows that given that animals can suffer at least many animals can suffer We ought to be including them within our concerns of, of what we do. And we shouldn't just say, well, morality is only for humans. You know, there are some people who say it, but many more people who think that, but you know,  we certainly think when it comes to humans, that even if you're not particularly rational or nevertheless, you can, we, we still think, we think humans have a certain moral status [00:18:00] that makes it wrong to do things to them, even if they lose or never have the higher cognitive abilities.But when it comes to animals, we say, well, they, you know, they don't think they're not, self-conscious, they're not autonomous, they're not moral agents, all of these things. So, so they don't really can't. But I, I think, I think that's just a mistake and it's, as I say, not something we consistently apply within our own species.So we shouldn't use it as a way of drawing lines between our species and other species. Remi: You speak really eloquently about species ism and particularly around chimpanzees. I remember back in 2014, there was an article you wrote in this book that you've written, which I love the ethics in the real world.And you're speaking about the rights of a chimpanzee and in 2014, I understand it went to court in Europe to get a chimpanzee, to have human rights. Talk about how the logic of utilitarianism arrives at that point, where we elevate [00:19:00] that's really poor choice of words to the same level as how we prize human life.Peter: Yeah, well, as I say, I think it is a critique of, of drawing the boundaries of rights just around species and it's saying. There are other things that matter. Now, now this particular case you mentioned was based on a chimpanzee and chimpanzees do have kind of capacities to, to think, and to reason to a certain extent and solve puzzles and there's research showing that they anticipate things in the future.They're thinking ahead as well, not to the same extent that we do, but significantly. So I think the chimpanzee was really taken as a kind of test case and basically challenging the courts to say, well, how is it that we're saying all human beings have rights irrespective of their mental capacities, but he is an animal whose mental capacities are clearly superior to that of newborn babies and superior to that of some [00:20:00] profoundly intellectually disabled humans.And yet this chimpanzee doesn't have rights. Why, why should that be? So, I think that's basically a way to try. Bridge the Gulf that both. Law and popular morality place between humans and animals. And I think the thinking is that if you can do that for chimpanzees, well, we'll also bring some of the other animals closer.And although the 2014 case in, in Europe didn't succeed, there are other cases going on. And right now, the New York state court of appeal, which is pretty high Cape the highest court in the New York state system is going to hear a case on behalf of an elephant. Who's been very miserably in prison.Solitary for many years in, in a zoo in New York. So that will be interesting. And I mean, it just the fact that the court has agreed to hear this case is something of a breakthrough. I think it's the, the highest [00:21:00] level court in the English speaking well anyway, to, to hear a writ of habeas Corpus which is an ancient legal writ for, you know, basically it says, give me the body, you know, show me if, if the king was holding someone who, you know why, why can't, why can't you give that person over to me?Why are you holding him? And it's it's if the court says it does apply to an animal, that would be something of a breakthrough. Remi: How do you think the animal liberation movement is doing since 1975? It's obviously come a long way. There's a lot more vegans. It's more normal conversation. Sit down in a restaurant and San vegetarian are men.What I began being a vegetarian 20 years ago, it stopped conversations and restaurants had nothing. I remember traveling Italy and couldn't find anything but rice to have. It was so strange all those years ago. That's really basic and anecdotal. How far do you think the movements?Peter: Well, it has come a long way in, in that respect and the understanding of people choosing [00:22:00] not to eat meat or even to be vegan.And what that means. People wouldn't have understood what the word vegan meant 40 or even 20 years ago. So, it's come a long way. There it's come a long way in terms of having some political influence and being recognized by governments as a group that they ought to listen to, that people do care about.But it hasn't come that far in terms of changing the conditions, which got me to think that what we're doing to animals is, is wrong and wrong on a vast scale, because there are still billions of animals in factory farms. The conditions might have improved a little bit. Might've been tweaked a little bit with some regulations in some countries.Particularly the European union has banned some practices that unfortunately still exist in Australia and still exist in much of the United States. Although there are now seven states, including California, that don't allow hands to be kept in cages. For example, so, so we're making [00:23:00] progress, but it's been a long time, you know, it's, you couldn't say it was rapid progress, unfortunately.And I'd like us to move forward a lot faster. Remi: My, if I was queen for a day, I would declare that all ever twice had to be renamed, slow to houses and had to have glasses. Peter: Well, exactly. In fact though, we could just do it with webcams. Now we really have the technology. We don't need glass walls and why not factory farms as well.You know, why not everywhere where animals has, why not laboratories? Why doesn't the public have a right to see what's going on in these places? Yeah. Remi: Al morality seems to move with proximity and morality meets. It goes up. If we approximate to the suffering, we have a view on that suffering, but the suffering this at a site where I can not having a view of, but it is the same suffering that is contributing to our choice of what we can eat or whatever.We need to close the proximity gap and suddenly your ethics will be. Peter: Yes. [00:24:00] I have, I hope so. I hope we can do that, but you're right. We, we like to look away from things that are unpleasant and we just continue doing, supporting them indirectly because essentially buying a product of the animal exploitation industry is all the support it needs from us.And we continue to do that. But if somebody says, you know, do you know what life is like for an animal and a factory farm? A lot of people would just say, no, don't, don't tell me, I don't want to know your spoil my enjoyment of my next chicken pig or whatever it might be. Remi: Hmm. Thank you, Peter. And can I also, just on behalf of my team here, who just loved that you're here.Thank you for the movement you created and how far you have fought for a cause that matters so much. It's this is going to go to three, 400,000 people, and I'm sure I speak for a lot of them saying you're extraordinary and your philosophy and the views. Put forward in the face of controversy and you still just hold the line.I think it's extraordinary. Peter: Well, thanks very much. [00:25:00] I don't see that controversy as a reason for changing your, your views. Good arguments might be, but they're not controversy, but I certainly appreciate the opportunity to communicate with your 300,000. Yeah. Remi: Yeah. I think it'll probably be more with Peter Singer.Yeah, I think that's the bottom baseline. I, what I want, we got into an, a liberation because that's the work you're working on now, but what I've been thinking about, if I was to talk to Peter singer, the question I want to ask him, which I puzzle over is how do you determine what's right or wrong or good or bad?I struggle even with utilitarianism and perhaps we can speak about it through that frame, or you can bring some themes in, but how do you think about what's good or bad or right or wrong? Peter: Well, I do think about it through the frame of utilitarianism. That's something that I, I came to obviously over a period of time and I think about it very often and you know, you're certainly not the only one who doesn't find that easy to accept.And there are [00:26:00] other very good philosophers who take different views. And of course, I listen to them and take a look at why they hold the views they do and why they don't accept utilitarianism. And that that's an ongoing debate and, and it should be, that's what philosophy is like, we don't try and enforce conformity or agreement.We encourage open debate because that's the way in which we better understand our own positions and the positions of others. But for me you know, somebody. Ideas like, like rights or duties. I want to know where they come from and I don't get good answers. And in fact, when you ask people, well, what rights do people have or what do you do and rights clash.I don't get very clear answers on that. It's not that I'm opposed to talking about rights whether it's human rights or animal rights, but I think they have to be derived from something. And when I ask myself, what can they be derived from? It does seem to me that the only possible answer is a [00:27:00] better.Better lives for all of those beings whose lives can go well or badly from their own internal perspective. And that really means being super conscious beings who can feel something, and you know, feel pain or pleasure have a good day or a bad day or good life or a bad life. So, I think we that's, that's how we should be thinking about things and we should be thinking about things, not just.For ourselves or our country, or even for our species, but for all Sandy and beings. And not just for those who are there, here and now, but also for those who will exist in future, as far as we can predict the future. And of course, to go back to what you were saying a few moments ago, not just for those who are in close proximity, tourists, but also those on the other side of the world who might be complete strangers.So, so that's the kind of framework that I use. It's it's one that's impartial between Sandy and beings, just giving [00:28:00] equal consideration to their interests. Whatever those, where the interests are comparable or similar and trying to do what you can to make the world a better place in those terms.Remi: Okay. So, I guess the reason for my question is I'm noticing there's a lot more advocacy these days for hurt feelings being worthy of stopping a message. And then I listened to what you said about. Good and bed in another interview you did. And I'm finding a conflict between the two. How do you not hurt someone's feelings?If you have a controversial idea? And if we agree that meant to be doing the least harm, does that mean we stopped saying it? At what point does this moral code kick in? How much hurts feelings are we allowed to tolerate or cause something? Peter: Well, there's no answer to how much hurt feelings in general, because it depends on what's on the other side.So certainly, we should not [00:29:00] gratuitously hurt someone's feelings. And a lot of the nastiness that you find on social media, where people do abuse each other and sling off is, is quite wrong because it's not serving any real purpose. You know, maybe people are letting off steam for themselves, but it's not serving a purpose.On the other hand, when it comes to controversial ideas, if the ideas are ones that have the possibility of. Being right. And of making a positive difference to the world then I think we should be prepared to accept a certain amount of hurt feelings. I don't think we can say that you can't express an idea that might hurt someone's feelings, because it would be hard to say anything new or different if that were the case.Right. So a lot of the things that we now take for granted, you know like let's say the idea that people were the same sex orientation, or to be able to marry that would have been regarded as [00:30:00] extremely offensive to many religious people who thought that this was a terrible perversion and contrary to God's will.And so on, you know, we wouldn't, you could imagine those people. Took the standards of today saying, well, you know, we, we have to make sure that nobody is allowed to express those views. We have to cancel them if you want to use that so that these dangerous and perverted views contrary to God's will don't get into the community.But obviously that would have been a bad thing to do. So we have to be prepared to accept that if ideas are serious ideas that have the potential to make a difference in the world and a positive difference, we have to allow, I think, ideas to be exchanged and to be argued about. And that's the way in which we find out what is right.And what isn't, Remi: the way I'm seeing it is. If we're not willing to explore bad ideas, we risk not ever getting to the good idea. Cause I don't always say what I mean the first time, as well as I want to say it when I'm building a program [00:31:00] here or something like that, but it leads to an idea of significance down the track.But if it wasn't that to flourish in the beginning, when it was very misguided or completely off base, it never would have come to fruition and touched people's lives. Surely, it's an imperative that this idea of freedom to explore different ideas that may conflict with somebody else's needs to be encouraged.Peter: Yes. I agree entirely with that. And not only do we need to have, you know, criticism and discussion to refine our own ideas and improve them, but even if somebody you know, even if an idea is correct, I think people don't really understand why it's being held, unless you allow somebody to object to it and then somebody else will respond to that objection and lay out the reasons why we hold this at it.Because if you don't have that, it's just like a dogma. It's just something. Well, this is something we all believe, but why do we believe it? You know, do we allow it to be [00:32:00] questioned and challenged? And has it withstood those challenges? If it has, then we have an answer to why we believe it. If it hasn't, maybe we don't have any.Remi: How would you describe the state of the academy right now, given the amount of controversy around controversial ideas and professors being canceled or younger people in the academy being feeling intimidated. How would you describe the state of play and what is it you would like to see? Peter: Yeah.Terrible as it's sometimes being painted, but it's certainly also not as good as it could be. And I do count myself fortunate that I'm not standing at as a young academic without any security of position in, at this particular time because who knows, I might not have gone further. Remi: So I'm thinking of one idea you may have had that came up in Germany that perhaps wouldn't have been that helpful if it was this time.Peter: Right. So you're talking about my ideas about parents having the [00:33:00] possibility of euthanasia for their severely disabled infants. Yes. That's that? That's certainly a vote, a lot of controversy and still occasionally does. Yeah. I haven't seen arguments to suggest that I was wrong, but perhaps I have come to realize that People are not always as well informed about the prospects for their disabled children as they should be.And so now when I talk about this, I encourage parents to make contact with organizations, for people with the disability that their child might have, and try to learn more about what kind of a life prospect their child may have, or. So, so I, I have learned something from that controversy anyway, even if I haven't completely changed my views, but but to get back to your question about, about the academy, I've been disappointed that some of the, he does have academic institutions have not stood up for freedom of speech as firmly as they should have and have yielded to protests and petitions and so on.When I think they shouldn't [00:34:00] I'm, I'm fortunate that when I was appointed to Princeton in 1999, there were some protests because of my views about euthanasia and abortion as well. And one. Members of the board of trustees that is the governing body of Princeton called for my appointment to be rescinded.But the president of the universities stood up strongly for academic freedom and was supported by every other trustee on the board. So I'm glad that that happened. And I'm pretty confident that that would happen again at Princeton with the president that we have today. But obviously there are some other academic institutions around the world where people don't stand up in that way.Remi: How would you like to say it other than the latest standing up, what would be the invitation that you would put out that perhaps we need to stop bringing back into academia or introduce for the first time there? Peter: Oh, so I think what we need to bring back is a greater respect for freedom of thought and [00:35:00] discussion and somewhat less sensitivity.To people being offended. I think that that has been taken too far and people have extreme stances on things that have caused offense. And that certainly wasn't, wasn't the case when I was starting out as an academic. So yeah, I'd like to see more robust discussions. I'd also like to see less political partisanship in a way.I, I have a feeling now that people. Let's say if they're progressive, if they're on the left side of the political spectrum they feel they have to adopt the whole package of positions. You know, I certainly consider myself on, on, on that side of the spectrum in many areas, but I don't feel that I have any obligation to support everything that's said.And there are some things that are said by people on that side that I will, will disagree with it. And I think it's much better to respond issue by issue than to take [00:36:00] up a whole group and say yeah, well, this is what progress is believed. So this is what I do. Remi: Let's throw religion in there. It, I would say maybe that as religion goes down, secularism comes up, nothing's changed in the human beings, desire to connect, to belong and to know what they stand for.As religious dogma decreases all the dogmas seem to increase. Do you see any parallels? Is that anything you've given thought to? Peter: I've certainly given thought to in a way, I suppose the resilience of religious belief, which you know, if you'd asked me 50 years ago whether it would be as strong today as it is, I would have said, no, I think it's, it's on the decline.And it's particularly in those nations where people have high levels of education, it will continue to decline. But that, you know, that hasn't happened. Maybe it has declined somewhat over that period and it, depending on which country you're talking about. But, but part of the reasons for [00:37:00] that resilience is I think, as you say, people have a need to belong.And the question is for some people they're a church or mosque or synagogue has been that place. And is there really something. That can replace it now. I think that's, you know, again, that does vary from country to country and the strength of your institutions that you might be part of and your group of friends, but I think it's, it's part of the reason why secular view hasn't become more or less universal among, among people with some education.Remi: Hmm, morality seems to be difficult for humans. We seem to wrestle with it. What are your thoughts on how to bring a moral frame to decision-making? How do you approach morality? What are your thoughts on it? And perhaps throw into the mix sentimentality and your thoughts on that? Because we do seem to squish them all up together, [00:38:00] Peter: right?We do. So one of the things that I think about when I approach moral issues is I try to distinguish my gut responses what you might call a yak reactions from my reason judgments. So. You know, I think we are clearly evolved beings. We have evolved from social mammals over millions of years.We have, you know, our closest relatives of the other great apes because we are also great apes. And we know a lot more now about the behavior. Great apps and of other social mammals. And we also know a lot more about what goes on in our brains. When we're asked about moral dilemmas, there've been scientists like Josh green.Who've asked people moral dilemmas while they're having their brain scanned and see what pits of their brain are active at that particular time. So we know now that we have these kinds of instantaneous responses to descriptions of certain situations [00:39:00] which, which visceral, which we might say no, that's wrong, but I think we also know enough to say these are biologically evolved.These helped our ancestors to survive and to reproduce and. Ensure that children survived for millions of years. And so they have been to some extent hardwired into a psychology, but that doesn't mean that they're the best way of approaching questions in the 21st century where things are very different.And this goes to one of the things that you said earlier about when we're in proximity to people or to animals for that matter, we'll respond much more strongly than if we're merely thinking about. Distant strangers or animals far from, and that's because for all of those millions of years, we lived in small face-to-face societies.Most people think that that humans lived in groups of between one and 200. So we [00:40:00] knew everyone in those societies. It was a lot of mutual helping, obviously, where you help them. And they helped us in times of need. And we responded to them, but we didn't really know or care in the same way for people who might be living just on the other side of the mountain Ridge of our valley.And so we, you know, when, when, when we now have much greater ability to assist people on the other side of the world and we're in, we're much more interwoven with them, as of course the pandemic shows. We didn't get the pandemic from within Australia. It came from outside. Then we, we, we have to change.We have to think on a larger, more global scale and that kind of small group morality that is still wired into us in some respects really needs to change, or we need to change the decisions we make so that they do have a broader focus. Remi: How does that reconcile with your views on border management, international [00:41:00] border management?Peter: Well, I think there are two things that I want to say on this one is that as I said earlier, my morality is quite impartial and the interest and wellbeing of somebody who comes from the other side of the world shouldn't catalyst for that reason and the interest and wellbeing of my fellow Australians.But at the same time, I recognize that that is a rational take on the issue, which. For most people is not going to be, be dominant. You know, they're, they're all capable of taking that view of it and maybe they have some attraction to it, but they also have this more visceral response that you know, strangers are not as good some way as the people that I know and associate with.There's kind of a certain element of, of xenophobia, of fear or hatred of, of strangers that I think still. Resides within many people. And I regret the fact that it [00:42:00] does, but we can't just ignore it. I think we can't just say, well, so let's open our borders that would not lead to a good situation because of the hostility of many people in, in any countries.It's not particularly about Australia in, in any countries to an influx of a large number of strangers, particularly people who don't look like them or don't, you know, have different religions or different customs. So so in a democracy anyway, I think that I, I, I do not advocate that governments take a sort of open borders stance.That seems to me to be. To be a mistake. And obviously the political parties that are more likely to do that would be the political parties that I have more sympathy with and whose policies I generally endorse. But they are not going to achieve office if they take that stance. And so therefore not only a good policy on accepting asylum seekers and refugees would be lost, [00:43:00] but good policies on climate change, good policies on greater assistance for disadvantaged people within our own country.Better policies on foreign aid. All of those things would be lost. And that's why I understand that politics is a matter about what's possible about a compromise between what your ideals are and what you may be able to achieve if you're successful. Political elections. So, so that's, that's why I don't really take the stance of saying that any, any political party that restricts intake of asylum seekers is doing something wrong.Remi: Okay. One of the comments you made in another interview I was listening to was that to let the borders come down into kind of color countries recently, hasn't worked that well, and it has it wasn't in a phobia, you addressed, it was a market decrease in the quality of living. And there was a struggle within that country to reconsolidate the amount of help they had to provide so [00:44:00] rapidly.Do you still hold that view or. Peter: I'm not sure which interview you're referring to your Remi: country in my mind. Cause I've only referred. I've only reviewed 20. We'll leave it out. That's okay. And edit out. I have that power. So one of the things I want to talk with you about is you said on Andrew Denton, and I'm going to quote you to get it correct.That if you and your wife had a child with down syndrome, you would adopt the baby out. I would love you to talk about your thinking on this from a utilitarian point of view and have our viewers understand your mind because your rationality is so clear. And I really curious about how you come to that and.Yeah, how you come to that. Peter: Right. Okay. So I think that probably is what we should do, but to be fair, since it's only me talking, I don't want to really talk on behalf of my wife. She has her own news, which don't not necessarily identical with mine. So, so let me just say that I'm speaking. [00:45:00] So I know about the kind of person I am, but I would like to have a child who I can have eventually, obviously not, not immediately when they're very small, but who I can have the kind of conversation that you and I are having now with.And I think that's unlikely with a child with down syndrome. So to me it would not, it would be a shadow hanging over the relationship. Children with down syndrome and people with down syndrome can be very loving and warm and close. But it would be a shadow over the relationship that I think I would always feel some regret about that.My child would not grow up to be the kind of child that I could regard as fully an equal in terms of thinking about issues about in the world and thinking how best to help the world and to make the world a better place. So that's why I think I, I said that now, you know, some people are probably the discussion arose from somebody asking me, given that I think that parents ought to have options of euthanasia for severely disabled newborns, whether [00:46:00] I thought that was the right thing to do in the case of someone with down syndrome But what I I'm thinking about when I'm thinking about parents having that option is children whose lives are going to be ones of, of suffering for themselves and where you're not likely to be able to find adoptive parents who would love and cherish that child.And, and I don't think Dan syndrome is one of those cases. It's, it's certainly not necessarily a situation of suffering for the person with down syndrome. They can enjoy their lives. And because as I say, they can be warm and loving children and people there generally are couples who would be willing to adopt them.And that's particularly, so now it wasn't. So before we had a test for down syndrome in utero, because during pregnancy, because. Then, of course we had a lot more down syndrome, children being born and perhaps the number of children being born my guidance at some times, and in some places being greater than the number of parents willing to adopt a child with [00:47:00] down syndrome.But, but now that we do have those tests and there are far fewer children with down syndrome being born I think you could find loving adoptive parents. And that would be the best thing to do in those circumstances. As I say, if you had parents like me, who would rather not bring up that child, but would have had another child who might be able to meet, meet the expectations that I just mentioned, Remi: the reason I asked you that question is got nothing to do with my views on that, or really your views on it.It's just, I find it remarkable that you say these views. When I see so many academics, not saying. In any way, anything controversial, they are playing this really safe phage line. And every time I listened to an interview by you, and by now in my research, it's quite a few, you speak so plainly and clearly about your views without any hesitancy.How do you get to that? Or is that question just completely redundant to you? Because of course you should speak this way. [00:48:00] If this is the truth you've come to using or philosophical, philosophical stance I'm standing here going.Peter: You know, like I probably wasn't born like that. I did adopt fuse, which were out of the mainstream reasonably early on as, as we've been talking about, including becoming a vegetarian, when that was a very unusual stance to take. And then I also wrote something else. I hope we'll get time to talk about the obligations of affluent people to give to people in extreme poverty and how best to do that.So I defended those stances and the then I got into these discussions about euthanasia, which arose, I suppose, out of my questioning of the doctrine of the sanctity of all human life, because the doctrine of the sanctity of all human life, if it doesn't embrace the sanctity of non-human life, obviously as a, a speciesism kind of doctrine, it draws this line on the boundaries of species.And I wanted to challenge that and that got me to. Fuse that we were just talking about, [00:49:00] but I felt that you know, well, if I'm a philosopher, I should be prepared to speak up and give reasons for these views that I hold and show why they're part of a coherent and defensible set of moral views. As I believe.Remi Your mind is phenomenal. And I would love to speak with you now about effective altruism. Thank you for the segue, Peter. I was looking@thewebsitegivewell.org and the philosophy behind it. Please share with our viewers what you consider effective altruism to be. And then we can unpack it a Peter: little bit.Right? So effective altruism is both a philosophical view on life and a social movement. The philosophical view on life is that one of your aims ought to be, to make the world a better place. Obviously, most of us are not saints. We're not going to divide ourselves a hundred percent of the time to making the world a better place.But I think it's reasonable to [00:50:00] ask people, certainly people who are not struggling to survive to have that as, as one of their aims and Then the question is, so how do you do that? Or how do you do that most effectively? Because if you're trying to make the world a better place and you say, well, I've made the world a little bit better by donating to a certain charity, let's say, and then someone else points out.But look, let's say you donated a thousand dollars to that charity. That's good. But don't you realize that here's another charity that could have helped twice as many people or could have done 10 times as much good with that thousand dollars as the one you gave to. And if that is the case, and that very often is the case, then it seems a mistake to donate to the charity that does less good.So effective altruism is about. Get the most out of your resources. And I gave the example of donating, cause that's an easy example, but your resource might not be money. It might be [00:51:00] time that you can put into volunteering or helping or particular skills that you have that you can develop to help in one way or another.But whatever it is, I think we ought to be thinking about how can I use them as effectively as possible. Remi: And would you like to speak about givewell.org? And I think there was another organization that you helped to establish. Peter: Is that right? Yes, certainly. Yeah. givewell.org was the original organization that started assessing charities, not just on the basis of their paperwork or whether they were well run or how much they spend on administration, but on the basis of what impact were they having?How much good were they doing? And, and give well, pretty early on decided that at least as far as charities helping humans are concerned, we can get the biggest bang for our buck by helping people in extreme poverty in low-income countries. And you know, they've done very thorough research on that.My, my only criticism of [00:52:00] GiveWell was that they were pretty narrow in a sense they were very nerdy because of the kind of research that they did. And they were not particularly user friendly or appealing to a broad audience. So, when I, after I wrote the life, you can save which the first edition at which came out in 2009, Remi: just given away.I understand. Peter: Sorry, I'd given Remi: away the book. You've just like chronically. Yeah, let's do a plug. So, the name of the book Peter: is if you can save there's a brand-new edition, well, 2019 edition anyway, very new. And I am now giving it away either as an eBook or as an audio book. And the audio book is each chapter is read by different celebrity who volunteered their time.So like the actress, Kristin bell, or the singer songwriter, Paul Simon, or the BBC personality, Stephen Fry, they all read a chapter. So yeah, you can go to the life, you can save.org and, and you can download [00:53:00] it for free. And that organization, the fact that there is a life, the life you can save.org came out of the book because a guy called Charlie Breslow contacted me after reading the book.He was someone who had a very successful business career but had never felt fully satisfied in his business career. And it always felt he wanted to be doing something that was more in accord with the values of helping people. And. He basically said that he was still working at that time, but he basically offered to retire from his business career and devote himself.I think he was in his fifties at the time to establishing this organization. And, and that's what he did. I'm chair of the board, but he was the chief executive for many years. He just stepped down to a slightly less intensive role. And we now have an Australian called Rick Vic strum as the as the chief executive of the world organization and also working in Australia.Of course. So. Yeah, as I was saying, that organization is designed to be broader than GiveWell [00:54:00] to disseminate the results of give world's research and a research by some other organizations that followed give well in doing that kind of impact related research. And we will be increasingly doing some of our own research as well, but I think it's, it's designed to have a broad appeal and to encourage people to think about their charitable donations and to go to the website and you can look at about 20 recommended nonprofits that we have there.And you can donate to them through the website and a hundred percent of your donation will go to the organization. We're just providing the service without taking any commission or anything like that. So, I hope people who are thing you've done anything well, we'll have a look at that and find the organization.You know, they like, and that suit their interests. They're all good ones. And they're all ones where unhesitating any record. Remi: And you recommended them based on a rationale you've literally studied how effective they are and getting the dollar to the [00:55:00] personal, the cause that needs the help rather than going on administration or any other costs.Peter: Yes, that's right. It's, it's, it's the value you get which might be saving the lives of children by preventing them dying from malaria, or it might be restoring sight in people who are blind and can't afford to get cataracts removed, or can't afford to treat and prevent other forms of blindness or providing surgery for young women.Who've given birth without medical assistance and have damaged the uterus and develop what's called a fistula, which means that there's a hole between the bowel or bladder and the uterus, and they leak feces or urine through that. And, and their lives basically are ruined in those circumstances unless they can get some surgery and the surgery is not expensive.It's a few hundred dollars and you can give a young woman her life back. So, there are, you know, we we've looked at all of those organizations and we're confident that they are using money. That's donated to them with very high effective. Remi: My understanding this is in the public domain, Peter. [00:56:00] But if you don't want to answer, that's fine.I did read in ethics in the real world. You believe we should talk publicly about our charitable donations. So, I'd like to invite you. Cause I think I do know how much you give to make a difference. It's Peter: phenomenal. Yeah. I'm, I'm giving somewhere between a third and a half of my income. Look, I'm, you know, I'm fairly fortunate.I'm Professor at Princeton university I'm half-time now because want to spend more time in Australia, but you know, professors are well paid there and I have some other earnings, obviously, you know, you've shown some of the books, I own some royalties and so I'm pretty comfortably off. So, you know, that's not a level that I'm recommending for everybody.That would I recognize be extremely tough for many people. What I do recommend is and it's, you can find it in the book, the life you can save. If you want to download that copy from. The website I recommend a kind of program, massive scale of giving. So, people are on fairly modest incomes. I suggest they start with 1% [00:57:00] just to be giving something.And if they get comfortable with that and feel that that's okay and it's something worthwhile that they're doing, and they build up from there. And on the other hand, you know, people who are very comfortably off, I think they can certainly get to the kind of level that I'm at. They can donate a third of what they're giving perhaps.And you know, guests, they will have less cash, but, but basically the research shows that consumer spending isn't really very satisfying. The long run, you know, people get a bit of a boost when they get this exciting new car or whatever else it might be, but it, it wears off whereas the fulfillment from knowing that you're helping people and doing something good in the world, doesn't wear off it.It gives you a kind of a harmony between your values and your life. But I think is very raw. Remi: This question may be too pointed. It may be, need to be an open question, but I, since I don't think you do pride, but it is an equivalent for you in how you live your practical ethics. So [00:58:00] completely, Peter: Look, I'm, I'm, I'm not really proud of what I do because I mean and, and, and, and, you know, I look, I could be doing better, as I said, I'm not a Saint.So it's, I use the term fulfillment, I think as well. You know what I feel I feel that I've done a reasonable amount of good in the world. I feel I've used the talents and capacities that I had a well and in a positive direction. And I'm satisfied with that. Remi: You speak of being a hedonistic utilitarian, but I'm hearing meaning is more prevalent in your decision-making.Peter: Yes. So when people talk about hedonism, they tend to have this image of the pleasures you get as being central pleasures, pledges of food or drink or, or sex or lying on the beach in the sun or something like that. You know, and they're all good. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not [00:59:00] putting this down at all.They are positive, but I think we are the kind of being that seek something additional to that, not instead of, but additional and that is a kind of fulfillment or meaning in our lives. I think that's just the kind of beings that we are. And that is a kind of pleasure as well. You know, we shouldn't think of pledges as only those physical ones.There are intellectual pleasures and I'm not sure whether you call just kind of satisfaction and intellectual pleasure. Exactly. But it, it, it is a, a sense of meaning pleasure in finding meaning. Remi: Hmm. One of the things I'd love to chat with you about as we come to the end is the general of controversial ideas, which I believe has launched.Is that correct? Well done. That's awesome. So, let's give credit to the three of you. It was yourself and two other academics that kind of helped this come to fruition. Would you like to mention their names? I've got them here, but I'm going to mispronounce. Peter: You're probably thinking [01:00:00] of Francesca Minerva is an Italian academic who has herself been subject to abuse and physical threats for articles that she's published.And I'd have to say the original spark of the journal came from her. She talked to me about it and we also talked to Jeff McMahon. Who's a professor of moral philosophy at Oxford university and a good friend of mine. And it's the three of us who are. Put this together. Essentially because we all believe that ideas are important.It goes back to what we were talking about before, about the importance of being able to put forward different ideas. It is an academic journal, so it's not for everybody to just publish something in, but we send out all of the articles we received to experts in the field and we get their reviews of those articles.And if they think that they're well-argued and rigorous, we will accept them. Sometimes I say, yes, button needs to be revised here or there. And then if the revision comes up, we accept them. And quite a lot of them we [01:01:00] reject. But yeah, we have published the first issue. It's an online open access journal.We've had some donors who've made that possible. So, you can go to journal of controversial ideas.org, and you can read the first two. You can also support the general if you feel like doing that. And the other particular feature, cause of course there's lots of academic journals is that we allow authors to publish under a pseudonym.If they're worried about being subject to abuse or about damaging their career prospects. As we were talking about before and of the, we have 10 articles in the first issue and three of those authors chose to public to publish under a pseudonym. Remi: Hmm. And the purpose of the general of controversial ideas is to provide a.Safe place a voice for ideas that have been pushed out of the mainstream that perhaps you feel and think and have assessed need to be heard or worthy of discussion. Have I captured the Peter: purpose of it, right? Yes. We want to provide a sort of way in which ideas can be [01:02:00] expressed, even if other forums are close to them.And in fact, one of the articles, not one published under a pseudonym, but one of the other articles the author put a little note there saying that this article had been accepted by a journal or positively reviewed anyway by the journal. And it looked like it was about to be accepted. And then after the murder of George Floyd and the concerns, very proper concerns of course, about racism and the editors seem to have second thoughts and Then rejected it.So it is by no stretch of the imagination article it's discussing cultural traditions involving black face involving people coloring their faces and whether those are always wrong or sometimes defensible. But you know, that's an example of something that I think is a good, well thought out article and as a site in no sense of racial statical, but something that journalists didn't want to touch after in the last year or two, Remi: how's the funding [01:03:00] going?How's it going? Peter: We've certainly got enough to publish the next couple of issues. So, we're going to be around for a while and I hope that as we publish more, we'll get more support from people who will like what we're doing. Remi: We'll include links to everything we spoke about Peter, and to all your major works as well in the show notes.So, our viewers can access more of your thinking, which I think would be just marvelous. Is there anything we haven't spoken about as we wrap up that you feel is worth mentioning or you think maybe one Peter: want to there is one more thing actually, and I'll, I'll show it to you. This is, this is my newest publication.I can't say it's exactly my newest book because I didn't write it. I edited; it's written by this person Abu Laos who lived in the second century in the Roman empire. And he wrote this really funny bawdy novel about a man who by magic gets turned into a donkey and What he experiences is a donkey.And it is, it's very funny, but it's also very empathetic to [01:04:00] animals, quite surprising for something written in the Roman empire. So, I hope that your readers will pick it up and Remi: enjoy it going in the show notes as well. For sure. Peter. Absolutely. You're so good doing that. That's so fun. Look, thank you so much, Peter, on behalf of my team who are all raving fans of you and people aren't in the building says 30 raving fans in this building.We're excited that you're chatting with us. And as I said, this is going out to a lot of people be so pleased that your voice is amongst the many and much of the noise that's going on with such clarity. And we such a beautiful Clarion call to live a life of. Practical morality. You're a good kind, man. I studied you at university last year.I read your book last year and I never dreamed I'd be. So, I'm a bit of a fan. Peter: Terrific. And congratulations to you on building up that audience for us. Thank you for what you're Remi: talking about. Keep up the great work. I will take care of the introduction in my time to not waste your time. Please go with our blessings and our kind thoughts.[01:05:00] Peter: Thanks a lot, Remi: sir. Bye bye. Bye bye

This episode is going to sound a little different for a very good reason… our couple just had a conversation. The farmer, Peter from Cadoux, and charmer, Marcia from the Swan Valley, only made it through one of our questions and then just chatted like two normal humans. There was really no point in Lavinia and Shannon being in the room. Speaking of Lavinia and Shannon, we take a deep dive into what it means when someone says “I'm not ready for a relationship” or “I'm just not looking for anything serious right now.” It can be really confusing when that person's actions are saying they really like you but their words are saying the opposite. Chances are it's got nothing to do with you and everything to do with them, personally we're a big fan of just blaming the other person and moving on with your fabulous life.

In this episode, Ziz and Pam are discussing the connection between academia and reality with an innovative education specialist, Peter Hostrawser. On his podcast, Disrupt Education, Peter features educational reformers and their innovative approaches to education. He's also the co-founder of HallPass Education, an educational think tank specializing in innovative educational solutions designed to guide people through their hallway of life. As an educator, Peter's passion is to transform people to become energetic learners through personal interest discovery. He says students in the 21st century need to learn focus management and be creative problem solvers who are adaptable to change. We need to make it okay for them to fail because that is how we learn. Enlightened teachers like Peter Hostrawser are making a difference inside and outside of the classroom! Resources: Peter Hostrawser Sir Ken Robinson Jo Boaler Viktor Frankl Quotes: Peter: “We are going to be uncomfortable and we need to be uncomfortable. You're going to need to pivot and learn some things…this is the place where we can start to shake things up.” Pam: “What COVID did do is it highlighted the rigidity of the structure we have and how inflexible it is to adapt to the changes in the world.” Peter: “You're either on board with this, or you're fighting. You can fight all you want, it's just a lot of things that you can't control.” Peter: “People are starting to learn the agile way of doing things…I like to think of us not as teachers anymore. We are now becoming accountability partners. We're becoming people who are really there for the student individually.” Peter: “We got away from really giving students an opportunity to show what they're pursuing, their purpose, and trying to have them figure out what their ‘why' is and we got into checking boxes. The college realm, the AP realm… I don't think those work for a large percentage of our kids.” Peter: “I think people are realizing this whole thing isn't a race. It's really, let's try to figure out where kids are right now and let's try to move them.” Peter: “I'm super excited about this year because we are forced to pivot. We have to look at things differently and we can learn more from our students.” Peter: “You do see a lot of teachers who are the owner of knowledge starting to realize that a real win in a classroom isn't a grade or an ACT/SAT score…So when you make it safe to fail and then you teach the learning beyond it, that's really what makes an educator a true educator.”

SALLY:Oh, PETER, there you are.　　You've been ages. What kept you so long?　　PETER:I'm sorry I'm so late, SALLY.　　Have you been waiting long?　　SALLY:Oh, half an hour.　　But it doesn't matter.　　I've had a coffee and I've been reading this guidebook for tourists.　　Sit down. You look very hot and tired.　　What would you like to drink?　　PETER:I'd love a really chilled mineral water or something.　　Will you have another coffee?　　SALLY:Yes. I will. The waitress will be back in a moment.　　Why were you so late?　　Did something happen?　　PETER:Yes. You know I went to the bank to cash some travellers cheques?　　Well, the exchange rate was looking healthy, but when I went to the teller, they told me the computer system was temporarily down, so they couldn't do any transactions.　　They said the problem would be fixed in a few minutes, so I waited.　　And then I started talking to another guy in the bank, and I forgot the time.　　SALLY:Oh, really?　　Someone you met in the bank?　　Does he work there?　　PETER:No, he was a tourist, from New York.　　His name's Henry, and he's been here for a week, but he's moving on to Germany tomorrow.　　He's an architect, and he's spending four weeks travelling around Europe.　　SALLY:Just like us!　　PETER:Yeah, just like us.　　He told me the names of some places where we should eat.　　Great food, and not too expensive, he said.　　Oh, and he also gave me this map of the bus system.　　He said he didn't need it anymore.　　SALLY:That's useful. Pity he's moving on tomorrow.　　Ah, here's the waitress. Let's order.　　Do you want anything to eat, or shall we just have a drink?　　PETER:Well. I'm hungry, and we've got a lot of sightseeing to do, so let's just have a snack and a drink.　　SALLY:Sounds good to me.　　PETER:Well, let's decide what well see today.　　I guess the best place to start is the Cathedral, and then the Castle.　　What are the opening times for those two?　　SALLY:Well, according to this guidebook, the Cathedral is only open from nine-thirty in the morning until midday.　　No. hang on. That's the Cathedral Museum.　　The Cathedral itself is open morning and afternoon.　　The Castle is just open from one to five, so we can't go there until after lunch.　　I really want to spend some time in the Art Gallery, because they've got this wonderful painting by Rembrandt that I've always wanted to see.　　PETER:What else should we see?　　SALLY:Well, the guidebook says the Botanical Gardens are worth spending some time in, and they're open all day, from eight to six, so we can go there any time.　　I'd like to go to the Markets near the river too, but... oh ... no, wait, that's only in the mornings, too.　　PETER:As well as today and tomorrow, we can see some other places on Monday, you know.　　But I don't think the Markets will be open then: they only open on Thursdays, so we've missed them for this week.　　Maybe we should go to the Cathedral today because it's Sunday tomorrow, and even though it's open every day it might be more difficult to get in tomorrow because of the church services.　　SALLY:That's true, but the Art Gallery isn't open on Sundays at all, so we'll have to go there today.　　The Castle's open every day except Mondays, so we're OK there, and the Gardens of course only close at night.　　PETER:Are all these places free or do we have to pay to go in?　　What does the guidebook say?　　SALLY:I think there's a charge for all of them except the BotanicalGardens.　　Oh, and the Markets, of course you don't pay to go in.　　PETER:OK, well, it looks like our plan is this: we'll go to see the painting you like first, the Rembrandt, then have lunch and go on to the Castle after that, and then the Cathedral.　　SALLY:OK. It says here that the roof of the Cathedral is really beautiful.　　PETER:Is that right?　　What I really want to do at the Cathedral is climb the tower.　　The view is supposed to be spectacular.　　SALLY:OK, well, that'll be more than enough for today.　　Then, tomorrow, let's go to the Botanical Gardens and have a picnic.　　I want to sit by the river and watch the swans.　　This city's famous for them.

SALLY:Oh, PETER, there you are.　　You've been ages. What kept you so long?　　PETER:I'm sorry I'm so late, SALLY.　　Have you been waiting long?　　SALLY:Oh, half an hour.　　But it doesn't matter.　　I've had a coffee and I've been reading this guidebook for tourists.　　Sit down. You look very hot and tired.　　What would you like to drink?　　PETER:I'd love a really chilled mineral water or something.　　Will you have another coffee?　　SALLY:Yes. I will. The waitress will be back in a moment.　　Why were you so late?　　Did something happen?　　PETER:Yes. You know I went to the bank to cash some travellers cheques?　　Well, the exchange rate was looking healthy, but when I went to the teller, they told me the computer system was temporarily down, so they couldn't do any transactions.　　They said the problem would be fixed in a few minutes, so I waited.　　And then I started talking to another guy in the bank, and I forgot the time.　　SALLY:Oh, really?　　Someone you met in the bank?　　Does he work there?　　PETER:No, he was a tourist, from New York.　　His name's Henry, and he's been here for a week, but he's moving on to Germany tomorrow.　　He's an architect, and he's spending four weeks travelling around Europe.　　SALLY:Just like us!　　PETER:Yeah, just like us.　　He told me the names of some places where we should eat.　　Great food, and not too expensive, he said.　　Oh, and he also gave me this map of the bus system.　　He said he didn't need it anymore.　　SALLY:That's useful. Pity he's moving on tomorrow.　　Ah, here's the waitress. Let's order.　　Do you want anything to eat, or shall we just have a drink?　　PETER:Well. I'm hungry, and we've got a lot of sightseeing to do, so let's just have a snack and a drink.　　SALLY:Sounds good to me.　　PETER:Well, let's decide what well see today.　　I guess the best place to start is the Cathedral, and then the Castle.　　What are the opening times for those two?　　SALLY:Well, according to this guidebook, the Cathedral is only open from nine-thirty in the morning until midday.　　No. hang on. That's the Cathedral Museum.　　The Cathedral itself is open morning and afternoon.　　The Castle is just open from one to five, so we can't go there until after lunch.　　I really want to spend some time in the Art Gallery, because they've got this wonderful painting by Rembrandt that I've always wanted to see.　　PETER:What else should we see?　　SALLY:Well, the guidebook says the Botanical Gardens are worth spending some time in, and they're open all day, from eight to six, so we can go there any time.　　I'd like to go to the Markets near the river too, but... oh ... no, wait, that's only in the mornings, too.　　PETER:As well as today and tomorrow, we can see some other places on Monday, you know.　　But I don't think the Markets will be open then: they only open on Thursdays, so we've missed them for this week.　　Maybe we should go to the Cathedral today because it's Sunday tomorrow, and even though it's open every day it might be more difficult to get in tomorrow because of the church services.　　SALLY:That's true, but the Art Gallery isn't open on Sundays at all, so we'll have to go there today.　　The Castle's open every day except Mondays, so we're OK there, and the Gardens of course only close at night.　　PETER:Are all these places free or do we have to pay to go in?　　What does the guidebook say?　　SALLY:I think there's a charge for all of them except the BotanicalGardens.　　Oh, and the Markets, of course you don't pay to go in.　　PETER:OK, well, it looks like our plan is this: we'll go to see the painting you like first, the Rembrandt, then have lunch and go on to the Castle after that, and then the Cathedral.　　SALLY:OK. It says here that the roof of the Cathedral is really beautiful.　　PETER:Is that right?　　What I really want to do at the Cathedral is climb the tower.　　The view is supposed to be spectacular.　　SALLY:OK, well, that'll be more than enough for today.　　Then, tomorrow, let's go to the Botanical Gardens and have a picnic.　　I want to sit by the river and watch the swans.　　This city's famous for them.

This episode features a conversation between Peter Van Valkenburgh - Director of Research at Coin Center, the leading non-profit focused on the policy issues facing cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin - and Muneeb Ali, CEO of Blockstack PBC. Peter and Muneeb discuss Coin Center’s mission and recent work, Facebook’s Libra Coin, the case for a true electronic cash, and more. 0:00:50 Peter's bio 0:01:09 Peter: "[Coin Center] was my first big job out of law school." 0:02:58 Muneeb: "You're OG now. When did Blockstack start sponsoring Coin Center?" 0:03:18 Peter: "Coin Center got its start in 2014. We got some really generous runway from a couple of donors who are just individuals who wanted to see a more adult advocacy organization in Washington, D.C. focused on this stuff." 0:04:56 Peter: "Coin Center is supposed to be an independent digital civil lIberties organization that goes and represents the underlying open technologies to Congress or to regulators." 0:06:08 Muneeb: "I simply say [the people at Coin Center]... actually understand this technology and they understand the regulations and the law, which is a rare combination. And they can be the right bridge between this technology and the various regulators or lawmakers." 0:06:29 Peter: "I think that's right. A lot of what we do I often think of as translation." 0:07:13 Peter: "More often than not we're explaining the law to lawyers in this space." 0:08:51 Peter: "There's no company - and all previous financial regulations - almost all - rely on finding a regulated entity and obligating that regulated entity to achieve the policy result that government wants." 0:09:37 Peter: "In the Bitcoin case, who's the issuer of the Bitcoin security?" 0:09:52 Peter: "Who in the Zcash space should be obligated for money laundering compliance?" 0:11:38 Muneeb: "One of my working theories is that Satoshi Nakamoto - whoever that person or group of individuals were - not only understood computer science, distributed systems, applied cryptography, and game theory, they actually knew securities regulation as well and that's why we don't know who is Satoshi Nakamoto." 0:12:42 Peter: "The policy objective that securities law seek to address are correcting the asymmetric information between issuers who are promising things to investors and the investors who've paid money to the investors." 0:13:51 Peter: "There are still the potential for information asymmetries. And I've sort of gotten into this debate with Angela Walch before about whether there's information asymmetries between software developers and the users of a software." 0:15:35 Muneeb: "Speaking of securities regulation I should just make a note here: we have a public filing with the SEC." 0:16:13 Peter: "From my perspective [Blockstack] has taken a really responsible and conservative approach to securities law compliance." 0:17:06 Peter: "I'm not a huge fan of the way we do investor protection in this country because it's very permissioned and it also excludes a lot of investors from participating." 0:18:58 Muneeb: "We actually had you host our Blockstack Summit in Berlin, and you interviewed Edward Snowden there. How was that experience? And has he been more active in the space? Or was that a one off thing?" 0:19:32 Peter: "That experience was awesome - it's still probably one of the craziest things I've ever done." 0:22:36 Peter: "I do think [Edward Snowden] has been quasi-active in the Zcash development community." 0:24:43 Peter: "He's worked on something really cool with the Freedom of the Press Foundation, which is if you have an old cell phone and want to turn it into an alarm system." 0:26:16 Muneeb: "Have you checked out any of the latest stuff that's been built on Blockstack?" 0:26:24 Peter: "I have a real interest in Graphite, which is the Google Docs type app." 0:27:05 Peter: "We've been looking for a long time for some sort of non-Google "Can't Be Evil" alternative to Google Docs." 0:29:29 Peter: "Network effects are a bitch, to put it a somewhat grotesque way. If you're talking about a communication system or a system where people pay each other, the systems that succeeded are not the ones that were best architected." 0:29:55 Peter: "Just look at all the attempts and failures at doing encrypted email." 0:30:16 Peter: "You're just going to default to the one everyone's on, even if it's not great for privacy." 0:32:32 Muneeb: "We're super excited to have [Neal Stephenson] at the 2019 Summit in San Francisco. I think Naval Ravikant is going to have a fireside chat." 0:33:40 Peter: "The Diamond Age describes Zcash." 0:36:01 Muneeb: "Coming back to this idea of decentralized applications - one model I have in my mind was when Linux was starting." 0:38:51 Peter: "Maybe decentralized apps will have their best success early on in those sort of niche enterprise / highly technical persons use-cases." 0:40:16 Peter: "Good luck getting a bunch of lawyers even to this day to group edit a Google Doc, let alone use Graphite." 0:40:24 Muneeb: "I think we knew that Linux won the server wars when even Microsoft started using Linux in their data centers." 0:40:32 Peter: "[Microsoft] has done a total 180, probably because they saw the writing on the wall as far as their consumer software business." 0:40:56 Muneeb: "What do you think of Facebook Libra?" 0:41:05 Peter: "I have a lot of thoughts about Facebook Libra. I should be careful about what I say because I don't want to be unfair." 0:41:30 Peter: "It's a really complicated system they're building that is still nonetheless permissioned. It's a permissioned blockchain." 0:42:29 Peter: "[Libra] is not an open blockchain. It's not a blockchain where anyone can add transactions to the ledger and independently verify the transactions." 0:43:15 Peter: "With Bitcoin, there's a lot of regulations that don't apply because it would be nonsensical to apply them because there isn't a centralized intermediary who you can trust to achieve the policy result you want." 0:43:32 Peter: "With Libra, that's not true at all. There are identified parties who you could trust to achieve the policy result you want." 0:43:56 Peter: "Even if you're an individual, you're not allowed to transact or interact economically with someone on the SDN list, like everyone in Iran." 0:44:42 Peter: "The Libra association is going to be this group of identified persons, which are really just corporations, including Facebook, Visa, and Mastercard. Whose laws are they going to comply with with respect to sanctions?" 0:45:21 Peter: "[Libra's] not censorship resistant cash. It's not really a cryptocurrency. It's just another payment rail. Why build it in such a complicated way?" 0:45:43 Peter: "Another thought is the whole reserve thing. So aside from being permissioned vs permissionless, Lbra is going to be asset-backed." 0:46:36 Peter: "If you are a company that has assets in a reserve, and people are trading - effectively - a pro-rata share of the value of those assets? That sounds like a security to me." 0:47:16 Peter: "And yet, I don't think there's plans to register Libra as a security because, frankly, if you did, it would be very useless as a currency, because it would only be allowed to be traded on securities exchanges." 0:48:09 Peter: "I've never seen such a rapid and aggressive response from members of Congress to a new tech project." 0:49:28 Muneeb: "Do you think the reaction from Washington is linked with some of the antitrust stuff as well?" 0:50:07 Peter: "Maybe they thought, 'This is us proving that we're investing in being less powerful'? Kind of like how they talk about WhatsApp a lot now." 0:51:03 Peter: "People in Congress ... are gonna say, 'This is Facebook, who some of us are already talking about anti-trust issues, and now they want to become the global reserve currency for all payments everywhere?" 0:51:40 Peter: "If any company is going to build a payments tool, they should build cryptocurrencies. I'm just disappointed they didn't basically fork Bitcoin or integrate it." 0:52:13 Muneeb: "That's what they say in the whitepaper, 'We're giving ourselves five years to figure out how to build an open system, but in the meanwhile - because of scalability - the only way to scale to a billion users is to use a closed system." 0:52:54 Peter: "I've heard a lot of people say that Move, the smart contract language [Facebook's] architected, is apparently extremely elegant." 0:53:17 Muneeb: "The motivation for Move is very similar to the smart contract language that we launched yesterday, Clarity." 0:54:38 Peter: "God knows that Solidity has had this particular issue where it's hard to know exactly what you just wrote in a smart contract until you launch it on Mainnet and someone breaks it in the DAO hack example." 0:55:44 Muneeb: "Ethereum is very interesting. They have a large community and kind of started everyone in the industry in a certain direction from a technology perspective. And I believe that most of those things were wrong." 0:57:05 Peter: "Maybe the network effects are just age-based, but it could also be this willingness to push stuff out there maybe before it's fully manicured or even fully compliant with the law." 0:57:51 Peter: "I should disclose that I'm a member of the Zcash Foundation's Board of Directors." 1:00:00 Muneeb: "I swear we're not doing this on purpose, but every decision we make ends up being the exact opposite of Ethereum." 1:04:13 Muneeb: "What's the biggest project you're spending your time on these days?" 1:05:50 Peter: "We were faced around a year and a half ago with, 'What's going to be a big issue in a year or two years? What do we need to start laying the groundwork on from a policy perspective now in order to have good policy outcomes later?'" 1:07:12 Peter: "Bitcoin, I think, ultimately needs to change and be more private and a lot of the privacy coins that we now see were originally proposed as amendments to the Bitcoin protocol." 1:08:38 Peter: "Any of the very public blockchains will ultimately need to find ways to obscure that transaction graph because, otherwise, we're gonna just be giving totalitarian states the best tool for mass surveillance that anyone's ever developed." 1:08:52 Peter: "So, with that in mind, we said 'What are the policy issues here?' And the big ones are anti money laundering law." 1:09:18 Peter: "Bank robbers use getaway cars. Even terrorists use encrypted messaging. This is just a reality, but that doesn't mean we should ban automobiles and encryption." 1:10:06 Peter: "We use the term 'electronic cash' because it's really like cash then. You can send it from one person to another, no one is in between, it's censorship resistant, and it doesn't leave a record." 1:10:23 Peter: "What if we get some sort of overbearing, overzealous response from policy makers that says we can't have these things anymore?" 1:11:51 Peter: "Most people have written about First Amendment issues here: ... if you're writing in computer code... it's still speech." 1:12:44 Peter: "What I don't think is a well enough explored area are the Fourth Amendment issues. The Fourth Amendment in the US says you need a warrant if you're a law enforcement and want to search somebody." 1:13:43 Peter: "Banks have been reporting our entire transaction history to governments whenever they ask, without a warrant, since 1970." 1:14:12 Peter: "The reason why that's constitutional in this context is because people willingingly hand over those records to banks during the regular course of business. ... You lose your reasonable expectation of privacy because your sharing it with a third-party." 1:15:09 Peter: "There's no reason for a developer to have all that private information about the users of their software. There's definitely a reason for a bank to have a bunch of information about the users of the bank." 1:15:48 Peter: "From a constitutional law standpoint... the only reason why it's okay for banks to bulk collect, surveil their users, and report that to government without a warrant, is that they have a reasonable business purpose to collect that information." 1:16:03 Peter: "There's no reasonable business purpose for an open source software developer to collect information about the users of their software - it just doesn't make sense." 1:16:29 Peter: "If it's interesting to your audience, I highly recommend you pick up our report. It's explained much more carefully and you don't need to be a lawyer or to have gone to law school to understand it." 1:17:33 Muneeb: "Where can people find you?" 1:17:37 Peter: "All our work at Coin Center is made public and made available at CoinCenter.org. And we rely on donations from people who are just excited about the technology and want to see good advocacy in DC." 1:18:18 Muneeb: "Blockstack is a supporter and we've been extremely happy with our involvement with Coin Center. They've been super helpful whenever we need them." 1:18:29 Muneeb: "Goodbyes." Peter Van Valkenburgh http://twitter.com/valkenburgh Muneeb Ali http://twitter.com/muneeb Zach Valenti http://twitter.com/zachvalenti See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Ever taken so much LSD that you get institutionalized, escape from said psychiatric ward, then have an ex-warlock tell you the secrets of the universe? Yes? Well then you have something in common with Basils guest this week! Basil and Peter cover all this and more, coommmeee and get it! Patreon.com/thejoyspiracytheory facebook.com/thejoyspiracytheory thejoyspiracytheory.com

My guest today is information architecture and user experience pioneer Peter Morville. Alongside Lou Rosenfeld, Peter co-authored Information Architecture for the World Wide Web, the first of several books Peter has produced that explore how we deal with information. In this conversation, we discuss a more mindful approach to dealing with the information in our lives. Listen to the full conversation https://theinformeddotlife.files.wordpress.com/2019/05/the-informed-life-episode-10-peter-morville.mp3   Show notes Peter Morville The University of Michigan's School of Information Information Architecture for the Web and Beyond, by Louis Rosenfeld, Peter Morville, and Jorge Arango Search Patterns: Design for Discovery by Peter Morville and Jeffery Callender Ambient Findability: What We Find Changes Who We Become by Peter Morville Intertwingled: Information Changes Everything by Peter Morville Planning for Everything: The Design of Paths and Goals by Peter Morville Trello Apple Watch Lawrence Lessig Muse headband semanticstudios.com – Peter's consultancy intertwingled.org – Peter's blog twitter.com/morville Read the full transcript Jorge: Peter, welcome to the show. Peter: Hello, I'm happy to be here. Jorge: Well happy to have you. So you and I have known each other for a long time, but for those folks listening in who might not be aware of who you are, can you tell us about yourself? Peter: Sure. So my academic background is in library and information science. I went to the University of Michigan's program back in the early 1990s. And then with Lou Rosenfeld I built a company and wrote a book known as the polar bear book on information architecture and we, you know, we essentially helped to build what became known as the field of information architecture. And since about 2001 I've been doing independent consulting, helping a wide variety of organizations with their information architecture and user experience challenges. Jorge: Lou was the very first guest on the show and I had the opportunity to say on air just how important the polar bear book, Information Architecture for the World Wide Web, has been to my career. So I want to thank you as well. Peter: Thanks for saying that. Jorge: Like you were saying, you've had a varied career where you've done the running of a consulting company and you've also been doing independent consulting and you're also a very prolific author, right? Peter: Yeah, it's about five or six books. Jorge: And all of them highly recommended. I'm going to put all of them on the show notes for this episode. The latest one is about planning, which is a subject that I think a lot of people think about, but don't delve into. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that? Peter: Yeah, so I wrote the book partly because I realized that I'm a professional planner, right? Information architects help organizations plan their websites and software and experiences. Partly because I realized that I've been kind of addicted to planning and thinking about the future since I was a little kid. I've always been someone who is kind of focused on what's next, what's next. And yeah, I think planning is something we do every day and it's immensely important to our lives. And yet most of us never take a course in school about planning, so I think it's under studied and kind of misunderstood. Planning doesn't need to be just the big upfront planning and then kind of rigid adherence to the plan. It can be very flexible and involve improvisation as part of it. Jorge: I think that when a lot of folks hear that a book is going to be about planning, they think that it's going to be very hands on and tactical. “This is what you should do and these are the tools you can use and this is an approach for doing that.” And the book definitely has very specific suggestions of things you can do, but the thing that I love the most about it is that it also provides a framework that, at least for me, prompted asking the question “what are you doing this for?” Like why? Why are you doing this? You know? Peter: Yeah, yeah. The way I defined planning in the book is that planning is the design of paths and goals and you know, I very much believe that we need to think as much about the goals and the beliefs that underpin those goals. Our belief that if we achieve this goal we will be happy or successful or what have you. We need to question the goals and the beliefs every bit as much as the path or the specific steps to achieve the goal. Jorge: I remember feeling very much like the book was an invitation to contemplate what you are planning for. Right? Like this idea of delving a bit deeper and I was hoping that we would focus our conversation on that. Like are there ways that you have discovered to do that? Peter: Yeah and I think that ties into the theme of your podcast, the informed life, right? Because if we think about the questions around, you know, how we manage information, what tools do we use to manage information for our personal and professional interests, and then we try to apply metrics or evaluation, am I using these tools efficiently and effectively? Are these the right tools? It begs the question, the right tools to achieve what? Right? You know, is it just about productivity, right? Am I being efficient in my job or is it about learning? Right? Are these tools and the way I'm managing information leading me in a positive direction where I'm learning and changing? I don't think we asked these questions very often, but I think that if we want to sort of talk about the tools that we use to manage information, we have to be mindful of what is the purpose behind that. Jorge: I think that when we use the word tools, folks can assume that we're talking about things like software or a notebook or like some objects, some artifact that becomes the fulcrum around which your productivity function works. Right? But I think that tools, when you're talking about tools, you're also talking about patterns or mindsets or techniques rather than artifacts. Is that a fair statement? Peter: Yeah, I think our brain and our body and our environment are the most important information management tools. The, you know, the mindset that we bring to prioritizing what information am I going to pay attention to, what information do I want to completely shut out? That starts in our brains and then we can use more traditional tools, software or pen and pencil and paper to implement those sorts of strategies that come out of our brains. But you know, I think of the sort of the technological tools for information management being secondary, right? So what I use to manage information and manage my day are things like my email inbox, my calendar. Basically, it's like a list in a calendar. And I use Trello a little bit, but I wouldn't be too upset if I couldn't use Trello because really everything I'm doing could be managed in a little black book. So I don't, the one big step forward in my lifetime that I am very aware of in terms of how I interact with information is the world wide web and the fact that I have access to nearly unlimited information at my fingertips so that when something new pops up, I see a word that I have never seen before or an acronym or something I feel I should learn more about, I can immediately do that. And that's not how it was when I was a kid growing up with a very limited set of books. Jorge: This idea that technology impacts brain, body and environment is something that I want to poke at because I suspect that there are ways of mindfully managing your information to be more productive that do not rely on technology and tools in the traditional sense. Peter: Yeah. And let me go on a sort of an odd direction for a moment because I think it'll tie back into this. So before we talk about how to improve our information management, I think it's worth talking about how we avoid making it worse because that's part of what I see going on in our technology saturated world today. At one extreme, you have folks who are on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram all the time. Constant state of interruption and distraction, embracing the internet of things in the smart home and Amazon Alexa, you know, using voice to turn on and off light switches and then a device I know you're fond of the Apple Watch, right? You're strapping technology onto your body where you can have a 24 by 7 interaction with people and data. All of that stuff in the media sphere is kind of spun as positive, as exciting as, you know, we need to keep people feel that they need to keep up with technology and you know, don't get left behind. Most of the stuff that I just talked about, I tried to keep it arm's length. I don't think it'll make me more productive or happier, but there are seductions around that. So I actually think the first challenge in living in today's world is not to get worse at information and managing information. Jorge: Well, that's a provocative statement right there. Peter: Yeah. Jorge: Can you unpack that? Peter: Sure. Yeah. And I think that it's all about trade offs, right? There's absolutely value in having more instant information, instant access to information and knowing what's going on now and being prepared to respond to that. But I think that we like to live in a kind of a dramatized world where we think that we're going to save our lives or save our loved ones with this text that comes in on our watch and we respond quickly. But for the most part, what we're sacrificing with that instant access is the ability to think deeply, to reflect, to be more mindful of priorities, what really matters, what really needs to be done today. And so I think that we've revved ourselves up into this really fast paced way that work, in our work and living environments operate that isn't particularly healthy or productive really. And I see it in the organizations where I consult, but also just in people's personal lives, you know, watching our teenage girls interact with technology. It's hard for them to read a book because they're so used to speed and interaction. Jorge: Yeah. I have certainly noticed that in myself. Like it's becoming harder for me to sustain the concentration needed to read long things. Because we're used to this 280 character snippets of stuff. Now, it sounds to me like what you're advocating for is kind of eschewing information technologies altogether or at least reducing your exposure to them kind of on a permanent basis. Is that right? Peter: I think it's, in the end, it's all about balance. I did delete Facebook, but I'm still on Twitter. As I said, I value immensely my ability to access the web and learn about things or keep up with news on a daily basis. But I do think that we're living in a society where there are seductions that are not good for us. So talk about food for instance, right? We're living in a society where we have almost 24 by 7 access to fast food, right? Like, “Hey, it's midnight and you should get McDonald's or Burger King and get your fix, get your sugar and caffeine and fat.” And that's not good for us. It's not healthy for us. And our society is getting sicker because of people's diets, right? People do things that aren't good for them because it's hard to resist these seductions that didn't exist for most of human evolution. We're not prepared to resist. We don't have the discipline. And I think the same is happening with information. You know, the stuff that's been going on politically exposes the degree to which people don't know which sources to trust, who to believe. And we have polarization where folks at both ends of the spectrum are believing some pretty crazy stuff. And it's like we're living in an environment that we did not evolve for and we haven't figured out the personal or societal defenses to protect us from ourselves. Jorge: Yeah. And in both cases, this analogy between fast food and… I don't know if to call it fast information but this, kind of seductive information as you're describing it, one of the challenges with it is that they, in many cases, are designed to provoke that response in you, the whole keeping you engaged in the environment. That's something that doesn't happen accidentally. It happens by design. Peter: Absolutely. For quite some time, I followed the work of Lawrence Lessig or Larry Lessig and he introduced me to the concept of the root striker, right? His organization for awhile, it was called The Root Strikers. And it came from, I think it was a Henry David Thoreau quote that thousands of people are striking at the branches, right? To things that are closest to them and most visible. But if you really want to solve the problem, you have to strike at the root. And in my opinion, the root of a lot of problems that are going on in society today is kind of a corrupted form of capitalism. And what's coming from that route are perverse incentives, right? And so organizations have incentives to take advantage of people, right? To sell them the fast food even if it's not good for them, to make the bigger burgers, bigger sodas. And again, the same is going on within the information world, the incentives that Silicon Valley companies like Facebook and Twitter have or that media organizations have, are not in line with the long-term interests of people. I don't know how to solve the problem, but I believe that without striking at the root, without kind of getting to the source, you can punish Facebook for bad behavior, but they will repeat it as long as the incentives stay in place. And all of this trickles down into the information environment that we live in. Jorge: I love this image of the root striker and as I think through my friends, I consider you one of the most thoughtful people about this stuff. Someone who is looking at dealing with the root of these problems. And I'm wondering if you have any practices, any tools, albeit conceptual ones perhaps, that help you do that? Peter: Yeah, so partly it is mindset, which is a word you mentioned earlier. So when I wrote Ambient Findability back in 2005, that was a fairly techno utopian book. And so that, I sort of see that as the end of my kind of unquestioning positivity towards information technology and the direction of human civilization. What I wrote Intertwingled a few years later, I made a conscious decision to lean the other direction. To question culture more, to question technology more. And for better or for worse, that has stuck. You know, that was a decision I made for writing that book that has then had consequences for me beyond. And so I think the first step in protecting yourself from the information deluge, is to understand and accept that nobody's looking out for you, that you have to protect yourself, that it's not all good. You're not going to take any steps to protect yourself unless you feel that you have some something you want to protect yourself from. So once you have that shift in mindset, then I think it's just a matter of being mindful of your practices and not letting yourself get sucked in too deeply. There was a period for me after the 2016 election where I got sufficiently sucked into the political sphere and that I think I went overboard. My family was getting upset with me for being too emotional about what was going on and so I actually took a social media break for I think three months, something like that. And I think that was really healthy. I needed that at that point in time. And when I came back I was able to be a little bit more calm and sort of selective about how much I pay attention to what I pay attention to. I think meditating is super helpful for learning to be mindful and questioning your own behavior and your own habits. Jorge: Are there any particular meditation practices that you can recommend for our listeners? Peter: I'm still such a beginner with meditation. I meditate for about five minutes a day. I just try to focus on my breathing. I aspire to getting more serious about meditation, but even that five minutes a day I feel has been really helpful. And I also read quite a lot about Buddhism and meditation. I feel like there's the practice of meditation, but there's also a really wonderful, rich body of wisdom that has been written over the last few thousand years surrounding Buddhism and meditation that helps me think about thinking. Jorge: That's the key, right? Think about thinking. Thinking this shift in perspective where you are not somehow caught up in what's going on, but you can step back and see how the immersion into that space is happening. Peter: Yeah, and what's funny is I'll kind of correct myself a little here. I love the word sentience or sentient because for me that brings together thinking and feeling, right? A sentient being is a being that engages in some combination of thinking and feeling. As a child of Western civilization, I'm prone to focus more on the thinking side at the expense of really connecting with feelings and I do think that that's part of meditation and mindfulness. And also getting better at managing information is being in touch with your emotions and recognizing that they actually play a much larger role in our behavior and in our planning than we often are aware. Jorge: Yeah. That's one thing that as a parent has really come home to me like, pardon the pun. I've become really conscious of that sometimes one of my kids will be super cranky and just being “difficult,” right? And when I stop to think about it, it's like, “Oh, you know, he or she hasn't had breakfast yet. And this is not necessarily something conceptual that is angering them. This is their body is low in blood sugar.” Right? Peter: Absolutely. I mean, sleep and diet and exercise are probably the top three tools for better information management. Jorge: Well I'm glad you mentioned that because I want to go back to the Apple Watch. Peter: Okay. Jorge: And I'm glad you called that out. O ne of the reasons I like the Apple Watch so much is that it does open up my body as a source of information and I can… I know how many steps I've walked and how many calories I've burned and with the latest version, there's this idea that it's monitoring my heart rate. And I also am going to bring this to the conversation and just let you be horrified. I also have a device that I use for meditation that does the same for the meditation practice. So it's a headband that measures brainwaves while you're meditating and it turns the meditation practice into a quantified experience somehow. And I'm wondering sometimes when I do that both for the Apple Watch and this headband thing is like, am I completely just missing the point of this? You know, by trying to turn it into an information exercise. Peter: Yeah. So I'm not horrified. This is where I feel a bit of a division between my own thinking and feeling from an intellectual perspective. I think the Apple Watch and the sort of biofeedback headband that you're talking about are fascinating and professionally I feel some, you know, some drive to be a little bit more of an early adopter and really understand what's possible so that I can better help my clients take advantage of things. From a feeling perspective, I've always been sort of drawn more towards the natural world than the artificial. And so I don't really, I don't wear any watch or any jewelry other than a wedding ring. I don't like to attach things to my body. And I'm also just, I guess I have just a certain wariness of the kind of second- and third-order effects of having this information. And I guess finally I'll just say over the past 10 to 15 years, I increasingly got into running as a form of exercise and to eating healthy and I, through some combination of discipline and just enjoying exercise, I have no need to measure my steps or to provide other external incentives. But you know, I appreciate that other folks get value from that sort of quantified self piece of this. And as I was thinking about this interview and this notion of the informed self, it occurred to me that there's a first impulse to try to explain how the way that I manage information as the right way, right? Like, you know, we all have to some degree this, take pride in how we do things and want to share them with the world. But I think in some ways how I manage information is the result of privilege. For instance, I rarely answer the phone unless I know who's calling and actually, I never answered the phone unless I know who's calling. And you know, I don't have a boss. I'm not in a situation where I just need to open myself up to the world in that way. And I'm aware that other folks aren't in that situation. You know, some folks have to answer the phone for a variety of reasons and that's a huge… That could be a huge interruption in your daily life. So one size doesn't fit all, right? Like we all have to figure out what works best for us given our preferences and our context. Jorge: That's why I love so much this idea that you've brought up of the root striker. I'm parsing that as an invitation to think, to examine more broadly your life situation. And it's not just about managing information, it's ultimately what are you doing? You know, why are you doing and what are you doing and what is it in service to? Peter: Yeah. And as you and I have talked about before, I have this not completely formed plan to buy some property and start an animal sanctuary and create a place that can be helpful to people and animals. And that comes from that deep questioning of what do I want to do with my remaining time here on planet earth? And while I get a lot of intellectual satisfaction from consulting with big organizations, I'm not sure, if I look forward to the next 25 years or so, that that's going to fulfill my need for a real sense of purpose and meaning. So I'm kind of looking at a fairly large shift in my life in the future that comes from that reflection and thinking about, you know, root causes and what's really going on. Jorge: I'm hearing what you're saying as an invitation to step out of the melee and really examine whether the life you're living is aligned with your values and if not then to adjust course. Peter: Absolutely. We, as far as I know, we only get one chance at this and we're not here for that long. So you know, again, there's a certain amount of privilege in being able to switch gears at this stage of life. But I think we all have more freedom to choose our own path and goals than we often admit. Jorge: Well, that's a beautiful place to wrap this conversation, Peter, thank you so much for that invitation. I consider it an invitation to self-examination. Where can folks find you and follow up with you? Peter: Well, my websites are semanticstudios.com and intertwingled.org and as I mentioned, I'm still on Twitter. Jorge: And don't try calling Peter. We already know that. Peter: That's right. Don't try calling. Jorge: Well thank you so much, Peter. It's been a pleasure having you on the show. Peter: I enjoyed talking with you, Jorge. Thank you.

Andrew and Peter explore the world of Thai magic and occultism. Talking about the importance of meta, self cultivation, personal growth and how they all relate to the intense practices of Thailands indigenous magic. Think about how much you've enjoyed the podcast and how many episodes you listened to, and consider if it is time to support the Patreon You can do so here. If you want more of this in your life you can subscribe by RSS , iTunes, Stitcher, or email. You can find Peter on FB here and at his website here Thanks for joining the conversation. Please share the podcast to help us grow and change the world.  Andrew You can book time with Andrew through his site here.  Transcript  ANDREW: [00:00:00] Welcome, everybody, to another installment of The Hermit's Lamp podcast. I am here today with Peter Jenx. And for those who don't know Peter Jenx, he is the author of a massive and intriguing tome, called Thai Occult. And it's really interesting to meet with somebody and talk with people who are involved in non-western [00:00:30] cultures and other ways of practicing magic that don't kind of come out of, you know, say, the Golden Dawn, or Wicca, or these other things, which are all lovely, but I think it's really interesting to get a dive into, you know, other kinds of worldviews and magic and all of those things. So really, that's why, you know, when Peter and I connected, I thought he'd be a great fit for being on the show. But for those who don't know you, Peter, who are you? PETER: And ... [00:01:00] Well, I'm an aging Englishman stuck in Chiang Mai at the moment. I've been here, been living in Thailand, since 2002, but first visited here in 1991. Which is kind of before its main economic explosion and everything else. And then, come from a musical background, working in music in Manchester, worked a lot with gigs, run rather interesting [00:01:30] night clubs in Manchester, and also been a practitioner of Tai Chi for like 20 years. So, I think everything's always pulled me East, which is why I really ... the first … on the first visit, I kind of knew I'd end up living here. It fits. ANDREW: Yeah, it's interesting how that works, right? You know, I was talking with somebody yesterday about, you know, I come from a Scottish background, [00:02:00] even though I was born and raised in Toronto, and they're like, “Oh, well, have you've been to Scotland?” And I'm like, “No, I haven't.” I mean, I'm curious, but I find I'm much more drawn to the East, you know? And I spent a bit of time in Thailand and a chunk of time in India, and you know, I was in China last year, and every time I return to the East, I always have this sense of ease that emerges that's quite different than what I experience, you know, living in Toronto. It's like, [00:02:30] that there are these places and cultures that are suited to our nature in ways that we might not even be able to explain or understand, you know? PETER: Well, I think it's working. I think at first when we come here, we are given space. And it's a space that we're not necessarily given in the West. Also, what I experienced when I first came here was a realization that what I'd always felt, regarding nature and regarding what [00:03:00] I perceive as magic in the West, was correct. It … Because here it is expressed in a much deeper way than it is in England, in particular. I don't know … And also, I think, you know, we need the strangeness to grow. Yeah, and sometimes part of any growth, as far as I'm concerned, is the process of change and [00:03:30] if you go to an alien culture, you are constantly challenged to change, and that can be astonishingly refreshing for us. And .... ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I can see that, for sure, and also that that idea that, you know, I mean, there are other ways of looking at the world and nature, you know, I mean this … the word animism has been, you know, being kicked around a lot and sort of gained a lot of ground as sort of a word [00:04:00] for some of the kind of world view that we might be talking about. And you know, I think that that's, that's both part of it. You know, for me, going … they're going to other places, and you and my involvement in and initiation in Afro-Cuban Lukumí, there is this sort of world view at play where plants are alive and have energies and consciousness, and you know, there's this interconnectedness between everything that [00:04:30] isn't really common, even amongst magical practitioners, at least in my experience, kind of growing up. PETER: Yeah. Yeah. It's one of those … [sigh] You know, the funny thing is … Okay. I had to act like myself to do this book. I have not been able to read other but … other magical books at all. Otherwise, it would have kind of diluted or influenced what I was going to do. The whole time I've spent here has been really a time to learn how not to [00:05:00] think and influence what is around you, and if you do that, you gain the natural focus that comes with the occult practices of this land, and that allows the nature to come through. But I always perceived this as just the Thai occult. Everybody else calls it Thai animism. [laughing] So I'm just getting used to the fact that it is probably animism, but everybody … all the people I deal with [00:05:30] all refer to it as an occult practice, but as an animist practice, it dates back thousands of years and it is uninterrupted now, that's quite rare in the world, as far as I know. I haven't studied anything else in depth, deliberately. And because of that, the depth of what I've been able to write about and the depth of understanding that is available is really off the planet as far as I'm concerned, you know. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, [00:06:00] I mean, there's such a difference between, you know, living practices that date way back, you know, you know with the Buddha, Afro-Cuban Lukumí stuff in Orisha tradition, it's one of those things where … When we start talking about divination in those systems, often people are quite astounded, and I know I was really astounded at the kinds of things that are included in the wisdom and specificity and all of these kinds of things. And, [00:06:30] you know, it's … In the end, the explanation is simple. You've had a lot of very deep, intelligent, mystical people pondering the human condition and connecting to the spirit world for thousands of years and passing on that information and allowing it to accumulate. And it provides such a deep insight into human, you know, human nature and human problems because you [00:07:00] know, although the nature of the problems changes with modernity and, and so on, the nature of being human really doesn't, I don't think. PETER: Well, that actually depends on the culture, though, because if you look at the Thai system, the things that it offers are the things that people, because of this region require, right? So, you know, this has been a very dangerous region over the thousands of years, and [00:07:30] they've been lucky enough to have the influence of Buddhism, which always overrides ancient animist practices, so, things can … They can remain who they are, while attaining higher spirituality, if that makes sense.  And really because of, you know, the rough nature of the living in the wild, and the constant wars in the region, most of the things that they have worked out to offer, and create, for their devotees are [00:08:00] related to protection in many forms, impenetrable skin, invincibility, ways to bounce back black magic, ways to change your fate, ways to attract people, ways to become popular, ways to gain good fortune, and it's all about, at the core of it all, it's actually all about the person as well, because they're being given an advantage that [00:08:30] they've got to work with. So, it's not just abracadabra, like wham! Okay. Now you're popular. Yeah, they might give you the attribute of being popular. But if you're a bit of a twat it's not going to work. Right.  So everything that they create is all about the development of the person themselves, being given an advantage that they have to grow into, which is typical of what we were talking about earlier, whereby the constant process [00:09:00] of change is also, can be -- we go backwards sometimes, can be the process towards either becoming a better person or more magical or however you want to see it. Yeah? And throughout the thousands of years that they developed it here, they've discovered what is actually supernatural in nature, and they have their own versions of it. Which, how the hell did they discover that? I don't know, but you know, special people discover [00:09:30] special things. They discover what human products they can use for rather powerful spells, they discover all the plants independently, often, of other approaches. So, the odd time, I've shared a picture of a tree .... [ringing phone] ANDREW: Oh! Now the phone's going to ring, just let it finish. It's not gonna … [00:10:11] I think I can make it stop. All right. You know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to unplug the phone. How about that? Problem solved. PETER: [laughing] Yeah, that's easy. So, you need, you need, you need that stick I showed you earlier. ANDREW: I know right? You know, I do. Yeah, before we started, let's just continue. PETER: So I'll go back in … I'll let you edit that out later. I'll just go back into where it was. ANDREW: Yeah, perfect.  PETER: So like one time, I posted a picture of a particular tree that has, that produces a particular wood [00:10:41] that the Thais use in many magical amulets, called amudam. I mean there are legends, it's the tree that you'd climb to get out of hell, because it's impossible to climb, because of huge spikes on the trunk. And it was possibly … There was a fantastic discussion ensued, because it was also a magical wood in pretty much every other system that I was in contact with at that time through the Facebook page. And the incredulity [00:11:11] of that between everybody was really rather wonderful. You know, it kind of just pulled everybody together. And … ANDREW: That's animism, right? That's the tree telling you what it wants to do, right? You know, and  telling everybody like the same thing. It's like, hey, I can help you with this thing. You know, if you work with me, you know, and that's what's really profound about these things, I think. PETER: Yes, very much so. It's … And [00:11:41] the more kind of I've learned about things, you know, I just, we were discussing about a person earlier, about lightning, and how lightning can make things magical. And, you know, I was chatting with a particularly learned ajahm from a very old lineage called Ajahm [?], Ajahm Tiger. With the help of my partner, of course, and he was telling me, really, if a lightning strikes [00:12:11] a tree, its use depends on the effect of the lightning on the tree. Like, if it blows off the bark in the middle, that area is used for the handles of magical knives; if it strikes another area of the tree, it's used for something else. So, depending even on how a supernatural occurrence like a lightning strike hits something, it can produce all [00:12:41] sorts of different results. And they … At the time we were having this chat, it was really rather mind-blowing that people have spent generations upon generations studying the effects of these supernatural occurrences.  ANDREW: Well, and I think that … It's so foreign to people living in cities, you know, but I mean, when you start spending time in nature and start consistently spending time in nature, [00:13:11] you know, it really, it really can start to speak to you after a while, right? You know, I spent … There's a site where we used to go and do ceremonies, every month, for almost two years, and kind of towards the end of that time, I did a 10-day retreat by myself where I just hung out in the woods and fasted and did my own rituals and stuff like that. And the amount of things [00:13:41] that I learned from that land and from the plants and the kinds of things that got revealed to me ... and even just like sort of unexpected beautiful things, you know.  There was this cherry tree and you know, I knew it was a cherry tree, we'd seen the flowers, it was beautiful, and so on, but the thing that was amazing, because I was there all day, every day, for that period of time, when I [00:14:11] was there, the sap was coming out and so there were these little reddish golden amber blobs on the tree from the sap emerging, and the tree was in the west from where we ... where I usually was, and when I looked up, toward sunset, all of those were glowing like a stained glass window, right? And so there are these moments of profound beauty and profound transference of information, [00:14:41] and where those plants can speak to you, and if you're around them all the time, then … and you're paying attention, then you get to notice them, right? But ... PETER: Well, it's the attention. That's the thing.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: And this is why, I think, in the modern world, governments are terrified of nature, because it calls people away from what they want to do, the people to do, you know, and to be a good little drone and all the other sayings that we [00:15:11] can come out with rather pithily. But, you know, it's ... and even the medical community is now turning around and saying look, you know, to fight depression, just go and walk in the hills, go and sit in the forest. You know, but this kind of … You know, I'm lucky enough to be of an age where it was more of an actual world at the time, and this is, you know, it makes me kind [00:15:41] of put my head in my hands that people are having to be reminded to do that. You know, and the beauty that is available, the wealth that is available is astonishing. Since we moved to Chiang Mai, me and my partner have been round looking at various, some of the interesting spiritual caves in this region. And you know how, if we have time when people visit, I might take them to one or two, but there's one that I've already decided, I [00:16:11] think there's only one or two people I'll take to that particular one. It's too wild. And if … You know, if we spend the time like you have, to be able to still the mind, and treat ourselves to a little bit of solitude, we start to see these things, you know. And maybe they become more special. ANDREW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, and I also think that we really need to understand and [00:16:41] respect, you know, like if we're really going to going to go into the real wilderness, you know, or real spots in nature, you know, it's something quite different, right? You know, in … Again, in my tradition, the real woods, you know, like not just like a couple plants around your yard or the park but the actual forest is a place that's somewhat feared by practitioners, not in a ... that sounds wrong. It's a place [00:17:11] that's deeply respected because it's known to be a place of power, and because it's a place of power, it's also a place of danger. You know, and so you make offerings to make sure that you're protected while you're there. You make offerings, maybe when you leave, to make sure that nothing you didn't want comes with you, you know, you make … If you're going to take anything, then you make offerings to the plants that you're going to take from, you know, and you know, it's so rare for a lot of us to have contact [00:17:41] with that deep wilderness, you know, it's something completely foreign and it's astounding, right? PETER: Well, it's … Usually at least once or twice a month, I end up going off with an ajarn, often to graveyards for graveyard ceremonies. And … Which I'm starting to document more fully. And, you know, watching, the ajarn go into, I always [00:18:11] call it ajarn world. ANDREW: Yeah, and by … What's a good translation for ajarn? Is … practitioner? teacher? Yeah. PETER: Teacher … The ajarn is a higher teacher. Yeah, but it's more than that. Yeah. It's an occultist, really. And, and watching them deal with what is there, and become open to what is there ... And, you know, I asked Ajarn Su and I've also asked Ajarn Apichai. You know, [00:18:42] often they go there to choose a ghost to do a particular task, and, to which Ajarn Apichai would, you know, often say, “Well, we've come to this graveyard, because it's a graveyard where there are many soldiers and police.” So, I normally … He said he normally tries to choose a good-natured ghost, so they don't come home with you, even though he has strong protection. And the deal is made, you know, to [00:19:12] reward the spirit when the job is done. And he knows, he can tell, within five percent, really, how effective that particular spirit's going to be. And sometimes he will go back and repeat, or just say “No, it's worked.” You know? ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: And then you go with Ajarn Su, and the same questions will be, you know, Ajarn likes to choose what are called Phi Thai Hong ghosts. And, which [00:19:42] are the ghosts of people who've died violently, before their time. And again, he said--some of them are really quite lovely--and you know, we were standing just in the graveyard, doing a love ritual, pulling a separated couple back together. And he's called, and he slaps on the side of the cremation pit. It's just two walls that focus the heat in to be [00:20:12] able to burn the body fully, in the open, in a thin, a bit of a wood, and he's calling ghosts. And you know, it was the time of year when leaves are on the floor--the leaves shed up here, some trees--and you could hear the ... something walking towards us, you know, from a particular direction.  So, he called that ghost over and came to a deal, and he said, “Oh, it's been successful and I'll come back in a [00:20:42] few days and bring the offering that I promised, and I will donate merit.” And merit is something we gain. It's a Buddhist, Thai Buddhist principle where we gain merit through good deeds, helping people. A basic form of it would be giving to charity, and, you know, these Phi Thai Hong ghosts need to collect merit to get out of hell. Eventually try and rise towards rebirth. [00:21:12] And Ajarn Su is very careful about the ghosts he chooses, only, he never forces them, he requests, he is very gentle. Otherwise, they can hurt you. Yeah. And then when we get back, both of the ajarns will always bless water, splash on feet, hands, top of head, back of neck, just to make sure nothing has been clingy, you know. So, I mean they all follow similar [00:21:42] patterns, where, you know, and if anything's taken, you request it to be taken and if you're going to work with anything, you're asking permission, and it's extremely similar all around the world except for the cultural differences. And the influences, like in this region, with Buddhism has been a particular influence. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I have so many questions, so many questions! [laughs] I guess one of my, one of  [00:22:12] my questions, though, coming out of what you just talked about … We talked about … You mentioned somewhere along the way, changing your fate, right? And I'm really curious about the idea of fate as it as it exists in this practice, you know, can you ... Can you just answer that small question for us? Tell us what that's like. [chuckles] PETER: Okay. Well, the idea of fate is … Without, I don't study horusat, which is Thai astrology. [00:22:42] Okay, but what I would say is, that I think the Thai occult corresponds to people's state of mind. Yeah? And help to get people out of the state of mind to improve themselves again, as well as realigning their faith, there's a dual motion going on here. We are given a Qatar. We have to make offerings. We [00:23:12] have to take care of something. We have to structure our lives around it. We have to take the five precepts, which are the basic things. Don't kill anybody. Stop shagging around. Don't lie, you know, etcetera etcetera. And often, besides the help of something like Rahu, which, the Thai Rahu is not the same as the Indian one, but, we praise it in a different way, which really annoys the Indians. And we [00:23:42] gain his help now, if … to do that we have to order our lives around it. So, I think it's a dual road of choosing a better path, choosing the help of somebody who is smart enough and spiritual enough to help you, and then structuring your life in a different way, and the Rahu is considered to raise your general level of good fortune. ANDREW: And Rahu is [00:24:12] what exactly? PETER: Rahu is the god that eats the sun or the moon from Indian mythology. Yeah? He's the god of eclipses. In India, they do not praise him, they're trying to get rid of him. Hmm. Yeah. They think it's horrific that the Thai people praise Rahu but usually they often consider that a period of very bad fortune is sometimes, Rahu coming into somebody's lives and influencing it without being [00:24:42] asked to come in. So, by praising him, you're going to offer your foods, the correct foods, which always have to be black. They need the numbers of seven, nine, or 15, depending on the ajahm. Different black foods, usually on the four quarters of the moon, with the full moon being the most important. Normally, it's advised to wear the Rahu on the full moon when in which [00:25:12] case it kind of feels like he's bouncing around on your chest like going to a disco. He can't … he's extremely rewarding; many ajarns swear by Rahu, but he takes a lot of work. So, I think it's a dual, being very honest about this, I think it's a dual combination, whereby we get our shit together, and then the help offered by the Rahu offered by the ajarn, will start to improve the life. ANDREW: And when we're [00:25:42] talking about fate here, are we talking about … We can be a little simplistic too, maybe for the conversation. Are we talking about it as a sense of karma, like consequences for our actions, this life, other lives, or whatever? Are we talking about like a destiny or a thing that we're ... sort of came intact from somewhere or that we need to try and achieve maybe in our life. PETER: Well, we always [00:26:12] have influence. Actually, there's three forms of influence on the brain. Okay, there's three forms of influence we consider to be three forms of influence from life. One is an astrological influence. Astrology influences the person without any doubt at all. Yeah? The second one in Thai is the influence of ghosts. Yeah? And spirits directing your life without you knowing about it. And the third one is the influence of the mind and all the silly things that the mind does can [00:26:42] be destructive. Yeah? If you … Everybody goes through periods of bad fortune, but they can have very very different reasons. Sometimes even in the Thai practices, you know, we can have a real crash of fortunes, but I was just seeing it as, it's just a part of life, man. It can't be good all the time. Yeah? It's a readjustment of yourself and of your … the way you deal with yourself. I don't like to involve things [00:27:12] like karma. I'm very practical in that respect. It's about living an open and happy life and sometimes shit goes wrong. Yeah? Through bereavement and through everything else ... ANDREW: So, go ahead. PETER: And through bereavement and through everything else, but that period then we have to kind of realign ourselves. I think focusing in on what has actually caused the problem is one of the things that we need to get away from [00:27:42] and just deal with the fact that we're in the shit. Yeah? Yeah, so that also immediately stops all the stuff that goes around in the brain or at least helps with it. Yeah? So. ANDREW: Yeah. Yeah, in Lukumí divination we have kind of negativity, which we call Otonawa, which means … roughly means, that which you brought with you from heaven, and it's like, it's like, yeah, this is a thing that's, [00:28:12], you can't do anything about, maybe it's part of your destiny, maybe it's just come from, come to a place where the various forces in your life make this inevitable. But now you need to just, you know, appease it, ease it, support yourself, and get through it, and then, you know, but there's no making it go away, right? You know, like there's no perfect road, right? Where we never see these things.  PETER: Well there can't be, otherwise we get so spoiled that the smallest pebble on the road would become an absolute nightmare [00:28:42] if it got into our shoes. Right? You know, we need it. We need these things to happen in life, in my opinion. Otherwise, we don't have any understanding of what life is or can be about. ANDREW: And I also … I also think it's really interesting that ... the idea of easing the mind by stopping, asking why, and looking to explain it. You know, I think that that's a place where a lot of people ... you [00:29:12] know, I mean, I read cards for people, and you know, there are certainly folks who come in for card readings who are just like: “but why, why did this happen, why did this happen?” It's like, at a certain point, why does it matter? How about you do this to make it better, you know, and yeah, it's that practicality that I think is sometimes very unsatisfying to people in certain situations, you know? PETER: Well, it's a Western thing, you know? Our minds are way too busy. You know? I live, you know, one of the core elements of [00:29:42] Thai culture is samadhi, which is [? 29:45]  that is gained through Buddhism. It is an open and clear focus whereby we're trying to separate ourselves from the mind, so you end up in a position where you can watch your mind being a bastard. Yeah? Or being a bit barmy one day. Yeah? So, eventually when you actually … You know, but I always ask people what is watching the mind? Yeah? [00:30:13]  So in my opinion, what you are doing and what you are going to learn to do, is to find out who you are, which is not often what your mind is? You know, even in our … Even in our culture, we have sayings like, what does your stomach tell you? It's not the same as what does your mind tell you? They will say, what do you think? Yeah. So, one of the aims is to eventually secure yourselves and then when you get to that point, you can start to [00:30:43] see or feel astrological influences. You can have an idea about whether you're being influenced by something else. And you can watch your mind and attempt to behave and try and calm it down, so, it doesn't cause which as much trouble. Yeah? And all these are core practices within Buddhism and Eastern philosophies. ANDREW: Yeah. For sure. Yeah, that ability to step back [00:31:13] from what's going on in your head and basically be like, oh, take a look at that. My brain is … my brain is doing this thing in the same way that my stomach might be doing another thing in my … You know, my knee might be acting up or whatever. It's like, I'm not even those things, right, but sort of tuning down the emotions and the mind to kind of a place of somewhat lesser value or more specific value than the sort of overriding quality that we often associate with them. You [00:31:43] know, that's not easy, right? That's ... for a lot of people, especially Western people. PETER: You know, if you ever visit, an example of one of the wonderful things to do is to go and see someone like Ajarn Su, who was a monk for 18 years. So, this guy's got focus. Yeah? And recently, we went along with somebody who wanted a head tattoo. A head young [not sure if this is right? at 32:08] for metta. Yeah, for loving-kindness. Higher, the highest of the high Buddhist-style tattoos. You know, head tattoos [00:32:13] hurt. ANDREW: Yeah, I can imagine. PETER: This is done with a gun. Ajarn Su can only use a gun because he's got an arm that won't do as it's told, and, you know, the lad doing it had great difficulty controlling the screaming. And I was … I was helping out, being a bit of an assistant. And I was watching Ajarn, and he just went into his quiet place and not thought, but [00:32:43] no thinking, he was just chanting Qatar while he was doing the inside, while doing, while performing this tattoo, which took way longer than the recipient really wanted it to, and he pretty much screamed all the way through, so when we let … And then the worst thing was that if you have a tattoo with Ajarn Su, he will then give you his Yant Kru, which is, it gives … Everybody he gives tattoos to and it's a line [00:33:13] of script going along the front line at the bottom of the palm, and man, it's painful. Yeah? And as soon as, as soon as he said to me in Thai, “Oh, just hold his hand,” I thought, “Oh my God, he's really going to scream now.” And, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He did. He really let go. Yeah, and then when, and then when we left Ajarn, after about 10 minutes, the guy just lit up, and he got the sun inside his face. And [00:33:43] he actually said, “Wow, now I know why I've had it done. I wasn't so sure for the last half an hour,” and it looked amazing, and we were actually leaving. But then once we left, Ajarn's neighbors from across the road came over to see him to make sure everything was okay. [laughing] ANDREW: Right? PETER: And Ajarn is such a sweet man. He kept stopping and going, “so [00:34:13] soo,” which means, you know, “you have to fight a little bit,” but doing it in such a cute way, it was like an anime, you know. And watching him not be drawn into somebody else's pain, not be influenced by somebody who is having difficulty, and retaining his own presence was a lesson in itself. It was quite astonishing, it was an amazing 30 minutes.  ANDREW: It's [00:34:44] such a … I mean, I hear in that story what I would call a profound sense of compassion that doesn't match what we normally, you know, people might go to as a sense of compassion, which is, a sense of that deeper purpose of what's at hand, a loving acknowledgment of the struggle, and a commitment to the outcome that was what was meant to ... like what was agreed to, as opposed to an avoidance of a kind [00:35:14] of suffering for that person, right? PETER: Yep, that's exactly right. And also, when he finished the tattoo, Ajarn told him, instead of keeping the five precepts, he only has to keep one. He said, “But you keep this precept,” and when he told him the one, I'm not going to say which one it is, I'm not going to divulge anything about what he said, but he said, “How does he choose the most difficult [00:35:44] one he could possibly choose for me?” I said, “Oh, he always does that!”  ANDREW: Of course.  PETER: I said, “Otherwise what's the point?” And the guy just fell around laughing? You know, he said, “How does he know?” I said, “He's an ajarn, my friend.” ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: “He probably knew as soon as you walked in.” And it was again one of those comical moments when we realize how much we have to grow in the situation we are in. But the [00:36:14] levels of metta, loving-kindness and the beauty of what they are trying to do is, it's just breathtaking. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. So, I mean I guess, let me ask this question, and I imagine there might be a few different answers to it. But, how does, how does a person become an ajarn? PETER: In the usual route.  ANDREW: [chuckling] PETER: Okay, those … From what I can see at the moment, and this is going to change over time, as [00:36:44] the more time I spend with them, but basically everybody starts off as being some sort of devotee, using their amulets, learning the Qatar, becoming kind of known as somebody who makes an effort towards those spiritual practices. They might go off and do a few weeks, or a month, or even three months as a monk. Yeah? Which is all [00:37:14] set up within the community, and most times men will be a monk at some point in their life, for a short period of time, and then they may start helping the ahjan with rituals and helping the people who visit the samyat, which is the place of work. It's like his spiritual shop, his temple, yeah? And then, the [00:37:44] studying begins. Now the studying, we discovered, has actually got levels. And each level, it's a bit like going and getting different degrees. Each level has got what is called the khan kru associated with it and the khan kru is a construction of various objects. Like sometimes swords, sometimes flags, and [00:38:14] they're always quite different, a lot of betel nut, flowers. It depends on the lineage of the ajarn that's giving it and there are various levels of the khan kru, depending on what you study. So, the earlier levels tend to be directed towards satyam, the Thai traditional tattooing, after which you tend to learn about sunay sunay magic, which is the magic for attraction. [00:38:44] Eventually … I'm trying to remember the levels. It's something like the 8, 12, 27 but it ends up at 108. There's men. There's about eight different levels of the khan kru, and at each level you attain a certain understanding, but the khan kru is actually considered to be alive. It's considered to have life, and it helps you teach [00:39:14] you, and it can also knock you back if you're not studying enough, or being erudite enough, or not trying enough or you're just getting it wrong. Yeah? So, I … it's weighed like everything in this system. The book kind of introduces the subject of the khan kru, but the khan kru in itself could probably be a book on its own.  Ajarn Su holdes the khan kru 108, which [00:39:44] is the full witcha, which comes from a similar root word as Wiccan, by the way, the witcha is the knowledge, and a very famous monk called Kru Badung Dev, still alive, but he's bedridden and 105 and his witcha collection, his book collection is really quite something, it's off the planet and his knowledge to go along with it. When he was a monk, he had the khan kru 227, [00:40:15] which only monks can have, and then you go back to the 108, when you stop being a monk. So, often you're going to see … In Ajarn Su's samyat, there's one khan kru and it's a 108, everything, and there are a certain color to show that his teacher is still alive and they change the color when he dies.  In other samyat, you go and they'll have like five or six khan kru [00:40:45] for different subjects from different ajarns. Yeah, so you have some that stick to a certain lineage and some that go around collecting different witchas, almost like create their own lineage to start their own path, which then they can help other people along as well. It involves learning at least three scripts. It involves learning an enormous amount of Qatar, understanding the Qatar, [00:41:15] and it involves practices such as various meditational practices, like the 32 parts of the body practice for which you need a teacher but there's a brief outline in the book of it. We're about … we get to know our physical body by traveling around it. And it's split into 32 parts. There is also various meditational practices [00:41:45] towards cutting four elements within the body, but all these kind of roll along through the different levels of study. ANDREW: And so, is the title conferred by the teacher then at some point? Is that the …? PETER: The teacher decides when you move to the next level. To become an ajahm, you know, you can say, I could now turn around and say, “I'm ajarn, I'm [00:42:15] an ajarn,” but I'd be a bit of an idiot to do so, because it's really obvious that I'm not, right? Yeah. Yeah, in the same way as mastership in martial arts. You know, you always get … there's always a number of [pillocks? 42:26] who call themselves a master and they have to go through the very painful process of being beaten up by an eight-year-old at some point. You know what I mean? Yeah. Similar, you prove yourself by being good at your ajarn. ANDREW: That's interesting. I also … I'm also really fascinated by … I mean, we were talking about nature [00:42:45] earlier. Do the ajarns, like, are there any living, like do they practice in Bangkok in the center of town? Do they out in the woods? PETER: Yes, woods. Yeah. Yes. They did. There is … There are some remarkable magicians in Bangkok. Normally, they will deal with the things that people who live in the metropolis need, will help them with the promotion at work, will help them find a lover. Yeah, and [00:43:15] be more attractive, and there is those … One ajarn called Ajarn Weaver Ted [? at 21:32] who's now very famous. He's the first photograph in the book. And he's got very rich clientele, that he does spiritual work for, whatever that may entail. Yeah, some of it will be aggressive. Some of it will be protective. Some of it, you know … because in Thailand basically, [00:43:45] it's really the rich and the poor that use magic, not necessarily the middle classes. Yeah. And there's also people like Ajarn Samat, [43:57] who is one of the most remarkable satyan ajahms I've ever met. Man, he has it. He has it. Yeah? And for me, he's the best satyan ajarn in Bangkok, but he's difficult to see, he has a mostly retired clientele. His work is not beautiful. It's very old [00:44:15] style. It's very ancient witcha, but man, he has it, whoo! You know, so all these things are available for people who need it, finding the very traditional Thai ones will only be done by the Thai people, but then there are other ones who become famous outside the country as well. ANDREW: So, let me ask you this question then. So, where does where does morality fit in these kinds of practices, you know? PETER: [00:44:45] In what respect?  ANDREW: So, if someone's coming to have work done to bring a relationship back together, is that … is that seen as both people should be there and consent? Is it seen as one person who wants this to happen can do the work and that could work? You know we talked about defense and aggression and these other kinds of things. Is there a morality in [00:45:15] there? Or is that sort of purely a Western question and not even relevant? PETER: Well, it's, well, there's a morality in everything in life. It just depends on your personal standpoint. And, many ajarns nowadays, a lot of the really heavy stuff has gone back in the cupboard, because it's not needed anymore, yeah? So, but I'd say Ajarn Cau, who's a particularly lovely ajarn who I got along very well with in towards [00:45:46] Doi Saket, the mountains to the east. He only pulls lovers back together who were already married, and they have to prove it to him. Yeah, he will ask them for impossible things to get. You know, if they can, the skin off the bottom of his foot or her foot, depending on which partner wants the other partner to come back, and, and he will help them get back together, because that is an act of metta, he [00:46:16] is helping keep the couple together.  At the same time, he will basically attempt to get the person who is bringing the ... paying for the ritual to understand that all the ritual does is bring them back. It's not going to fix your relationship problems. So, if you turn around and be angry, it's not going to keep them there. This is not making a slave out of somebody, [00:46:46] yeah? So there isn't really anything aggressive within that. I mean, really, you know, people often ask the question: What is black magic in Thailand? You know, yes, then you get a different answer from everybody, but when they ask the same ajarn, the ajarn always said, well, you know attraction. He said, I might use part of somebody's skull for attraction. Esanay, [47:12] we call it, and he said, but it's just an air magic. It's not … it's [00:47:16] not black magic. He said, you're just attracting somebody, where's the harm in that? You're not kind of turning them into a slave. You're just attracting them. ANDREW: Right? If the work isn't … The work isn't geared towards removing people's free will. The work is geared towards providing opportunity, and that opportunity, especially sort of based on what you said in the earlier part of the conversation too, that opportunity is both access [00:47:46] to the opportunity of that thing and also the opportunity to grow as a person to embody that thing. PETER: Exactly.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: Yeah. So, you know other people think the use of any human materials is black magic in itself, which I don't, I don't consider it to be. There's all sorts of … We'll not get into the Thai thoughts about death, because you know, everybody does … they're not … well, you know, it's just part of life. And generally, most … some ajarns [00:48:16] think that anything with human materials is black magic. Some ajarns only think that anything that is forceful is black magic, anything that is cursing is black magic, and they really try not to do it nowadays. ANDREW: Hmm. PETER: Yeah, they will do something called a kong ritual, which is a ritual. It's like a controlling ritual you do in the graveyard and it's to rebalance [00:48:46] some sort of relationship. A work relationship, your boss is being a bit of a bastard to you, etc. You'll bring a kong ritual just to slap him down a little bit, slap him down for a few months, let the relationship become better between you, and then it wears off. And they are extremely effective, these. But then, you know, you get people coming forward wanting people hurt or dead or [00:49:16] forced into bankruptcy or something serious and to be honest nowadays, yes, it can be done, but most ajarns will say no. And the only … And there's some very knowledgeable people about cursing in this city. Terrifyingly knowledgeable, but they just choose not to do it unless it's for the right reason. Yeah, because you know, they're bringing … They're forcing something, they're bringing something [00:49:46] difficult to themselves. Everybody nowadays is now trying to strike the correct balance. ANDREW: Hmm. And do you see that shift as coming out of a shift in cultural values, or is it a shift in the difference in the quality of life now versus in the past? PETER: It's both, you know, the government's also … 10 to 15 years ago, they started clamping [00:50:16] down, they started stopping people who had died violently being buried. Yeah? Originally …. Only anybody who died a difficult death, which basically reflects like a really bad karma was buried, everybody else was burnt, right? So, these ground … And they're exactly the people that the ajarns want to use the [00:50:47] products from, yeah? And they basically stopped doing that 10 to 15 years ago. So, slowly but surely, that source is being exhausted. You know, Thailand is becoming a very developed country, access to the human materials is becoming extremely difficult, and, you know, it's not as wild here as it used to be, people need more, less protection in many ways, more metta, [00:51:17] more senay, … Because now you know the times have changed. Gone are the days where they could just chop a corpse's head off and leave a watermelon. You know, now they believe that a better protection is to have so much metta that somebody doesn't want to hurt you anyway, is to be such a lovely person that attracts other people, it makes you difficult to attack, you know, so as cultures develop the way they use [00:51:47] their magical knowledge develops, which is actually the sign of any living form of magic, isn't it? ANDREW: Well, it reminds me of martial arts practice, right? You know, I mean, a lot of people start off in you know, something a little harder like karate or whatever, and you know, they want to fight and use their muscles and whatever, and as you, you know, hopefully as you age and get a little wiser, you know, you move to something more circular and more soft and you know, like, you know, nothing … Not that you can't, you know, throw [00:52:17] that punch if you need to but it's often more like, oh, I can just redirect this and just flow with things in a completely different manner and therefore I won't have that problem any more. PETER: Oh, I always recommend running away. It's fucking great for avoiding problems. ANDREW: Yeah, exactly, right? Exactly. [laughing]  ANDREW: Just don't be there in the first place, right? PETER: And also … Exactly, the greatest defense! I mean, this is not counting somebody who comes up being an absolute idiot. In which case, finish it and then run away. Yeah? I mean, [00:52:47] I've [? 52:49] done martial arts for about 20 years. But really, it should just be about happiness, physical comfort, you know, nothing more difficult to attack than somebody who's happy, you know, and that relates to what we were just saying about the magic as well. You know, it's … As soon as you're aggressive, it gives people something to hang onto. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Well, and possibly puts you off balance, then, right? PETER: Well, [00:53:17] everything goes to your head.  ANDREW: Yeah. Mm-hmm. PETER: And if what you're trying to do is not to let it go, though, because that raises your center of balance as well, and you become slow and you tense. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yep.  PETER: So, it's all … they're very interrelated in many respects, actually, you know, and just retaining that open clear mind rather than being pulled by your emotions all the time, you know. It's … and in many ways, to get the martial arts, is one of them. Meditation [00:53:47] works. You know, what have you found works, Andrew, for you? ANDREW: Yeah, I mean meditation. I did martial arts for a long time. Martial arts was a good road for getting over being angry, to me. You know, I sort of worked through my anger there in an environment where I could sort of explore power dynamics very openly. And yeah, just, you know, returning, you know, returning my attention back always to like, I [00:54:17] don't know how to put it. So, there's you know, there's that transcendent sort of samadhi kind of loss of attachment to yourself and your daily life. You know, so that piece of it combined with just very practical cultivation of self and a sustainable life, right? Like just, what do I need? What do I need to do? Where am I showing up? Where do I feel I'm lacking? Why do I feel I'm lacking there? Is [00:54:47] there something I actually need and just, you know, kind of cycling through those different patterns of, I guess, growth-orientated questions. And, you know, it's … It does wonders for removing unhelpful hungers and, you know, and sort of recognizing the own … my own internal bullshit for what it is, which, then, allows me to show up more, right?  PETER: Well, there's nothing like … Yeah, there's nothing like a good bit of bullshit within ourselves as well, you know? There's [00:55:17] many things that we can pull on.  ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: You know, there's many, many, there's many advantages to these things, but it's just knowing what they are … ANDREW: Mm-hmm. Yep. PETER: … Is the difficult thing and not being led by them, you know, and I'm sure you'd agree that when we get, you know, when you get past the monkey mind, as they call it here.  ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: You know the relation … Your relationship with time changes, your relationship with people changes.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm.  PETER: You know, the way you can [00:55:47] sit with people changes … ANDREW: Yeah.  PETER: The way, you know, the joy of life changes. ANDREW: And the way in which people receive you changes.  PETER: Completely.  ANDREW: Right? Because when you … When you show up and you're genuinely present with other people, they feel that, you know, and if you have, you know, if you want to call it metta, it's not really a word I would use, but you know, but you know, compassion or you know, those … That sort of openness to other people and seeing them for who they are without judgments or overt attachments. That's a [00:56:17] completely different dynamic, right? That goes to a completely different place than, you know, when you show up and you're just like, oh my God, I so need this or that or whatever from you. Right? PETER: Well, it's also, I mean, I'm very lucky to be able to go anywhere in Thailand, literally, anywhere. You know? My partner's family, we were there a few months ago, and I said, “oh, I'm gonna go to Surat Veree [? 56:43] because I want to photograph this particular shrine for the book.” And I said, “Where is the bus [00:56:47] go from, the minibus? She said, “Oh, from there.” And so, I've got up at like 4:00 o'clock, I got the 5 o'clock bus, I was there by 6, and the driver dropped me off as close as he could to the temple. Ten seconds later, a motorbike boy came up, took me to visit the temple. We had a quick bit of breakfast together, which I paid for, of course, it was very nice. Then I did the photographs, he waited for me, he drove me back. I jumped on the next mini bus which arrived seconds later, and I rode back up to Bangkok and back to [00:57:17] family home in about four hours, three and a half hours. And the response was, “How have you done that? How?” Yeah, I said, well, it just kind of happens. If you just connect to people, you know, he's not the driver of a minibus. He's a man who's having to get through a day and hopefully support his family, you know? He is not just a motorbike guy, he might be an older [00:57:47] man who's had a very interesting life, and you treat him with some respect. You know, if you look, you look people in the eye, you make those connections, you open your heart. ANDREW: Yeah. Well when I was in India, I wanted to go to Bodghaya, where the Buddha was enlightened? Or, I'm sorry, where the Buddha first preached the dharma, right? And, you know, and I went … So I wanted to go to these places, but there's [00:58:17] nothing there, right, there's just temples. It's just a city of temples and a few restaurants, things to support people, but nobody … I don't think people really live there or whatever and there's definitely no trains or whatever. So I arrived in the nearest city and--which wasn't that far away--but there was this huge strike there that day, and I was trying to find somebody who'd be willing to take me, 'cause I was only there for a day because I left it to sort of towards the end of my trip, [00:58:47] because I was trying to kind of hit a couple of important places, and two things happened, which remind me exactly of this conversation.  So, one was, I was walking down the street, and it was a long street with a big park and government building, I think, on the other side, and it was just this huge fence that ran along this massive park all the way along. There's no easy way there, no gates, you would have to climb it and it was all houses on the other side and all the houses were basically [00:59:17] attached and there's no roads or alleys or whatever.  And I'm like mid-block, and then I hear this huge ruckus and the people who are protesting are coming down the street, and there's this mob of people, with sticks and signs, and they're yelling and screaming and whatever, and I look at the crowd and I turn around and I look and there's this gentleman standing in his door, and I just look at him and I point at myself and I point inside his house and he's just like, yes, [00:59:47] like just, waved with his hands, like yes, come in my house [laughing], and so we go in his house. He closes the door. We wait for everybody to pass. And he had no English, you know, my Hindi is not particularly, you know, I knew a few things like hello, and thank you, and whatever, and we just waited in his house and stood there and looked at each other very pleasantly and peacefully and whatever. And then you know, when it was obvious that this, the sound had passed and the people were gone. He opened the door, and looked out, and then he gave me a pat on the back [01:00:17] and you know, sent me on my way.  And then a few minutes later, I ran into this guy who was driving a, like one of those cycle rickshaws, this really older gentleman, and I got … I just like looked at him and I'm like, “I want to go here,” and he's like, “sure!” And so, he took me and we rode this bicycle through the countryside and stopped at a couple farms and all these amazing things. And then, when we got there, on top of paying him for his time, I also bought him lunch. And we just [01:00:47] sat there. He also had, you know, basically no English and we just sat there eating together and looking at each other and smiling. And you know, there's such a connection that can happen when you're open to those things, and like I say, when you're going for a purpose and when you go in with a certain way, that road can just open for you, right? You know? PETER: It just happens … and it really happens because you're not thinking …  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: And by not thinking, you're taking away the barriers that people can come, [01:01:17] that generally stop people relating to you… ANDREW: Yeah, for sure.  PETER: You know, it's a remarkable period of time here, you know, but, especially this last few years, going through the process of doing all this work, because it just, it just happened. Just, it was just, doors kept opening and things kept telling me what to do next, and you [01:01:47] know, and then we got to the point where this, you know, we managed to finish this work. ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: And yeah, there were bits where it wasn't easy, but it's still found a way to be done.  ANDREW: Mm-hmm. For sure.  PETER: And you know, it's … Even my partner sometimes says, “How have you done this?” [laughing] ANDREW: Mm-hmmm.  PETER: You know. “How have you done it?” Well it kind of just gave me the opportunity to do it and then it kind of did itself.  ANDREW: Yeah. They meet you [01:02:17] halfway. You know? Or more than halfway sometimes, right? Yeah.  PETER: Yeah, they do. And also, I've really been wanting, you know, I've kind of resisted it for the first, God, 20 years of coming here … ANDREW: Mm-hmm. PETER: Because that was apparent when I first came over.  ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: And kind of waited until I was ready to kind of do it. ANDREW: Yeah. PETER: You know, it's been quite old and extremely rewarding and rather wonderful. ANDREW: Mm-hmm. It's [01:02:47] fantastic. Well, I mean, maybe, we've been on the phone for a long time here. Maybe we should wrap this up, because I could talk to you all day. This is a wonderful conversation. So, first of all ... PETER: It'd be nice with a cup of tea and a biscuit, wouldn't it? [laughing] ANDREW: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Well, you know, I'll let you know when I'm going to be in Bangkok or Thailand, some time. And we'll make that happen. For people who want to check out this book, and you know, if this stuff really interests you, and you're, you know, you really should [01:03:17] check out the book. It's quite a, it's quite an amazing work. Where do people find you, and where do people find your book? PETER: I'm easy found in two places. One is on Facebook through the Thai Occult book page, and the easiest place to click on the book to get the Timeless editions would be through the Thai Occult.com, all one word.  ANDREW: Perfect.  PETER: I can't … And there's [01:03:47] two book pictures on the front cover, one from the Sak Yant book and then the new one on the Thai occult. Of the … to be honest, I'm very very very proud of the new one, the Sak Yant book and yes, we have some superb interviews with the guys, some of the makers in there, but having just produced something really good, I'd love to go back and rewrite it. ANDREW: Isn't [01:04:17] that always the way, right? Isn't that always the way? PETER: Though to be honest with you, I don't think I'm going to do … I don't think I'll be in that position, with the new one. I don't think I could have made a much better job, to be honest. There's always more, it's going to come up, but as a broad taste as a buffet of the Thai occult, I don't think … It'd be difficult to do a better job than this, in my opinion. ANDREW: Perfect. Well, go and check it out, and support [01:04:47] Peter's work and you know, thanks for being on, Peter and thanks to everybody, as always, for listening. PETER: It's been lovely. Thank you. 

【微信公众平台】搜索“英语口语每天学”，获取独家免费英语学习资料【新浪微博】@笨老撕Poor thing 真可怜Peter: I'm not feeling well. I've been having a cold for a week. 我感觉不太舒服。我感冒已经一周了。Lisa: Oh you poor thing! 啊，真可怜！Poor 蹩脚的；不好的My grandpa has been in poor health for several years.我爷爷近几年一直以来身体都不太好。Be in poor/bad taste 粗俗的His jokes are in bad taste. I don't like him.他的笑话都很粗俗，我不喜欢他。Be as poor as a church mouse 很穷She was as poor as a church mouse, living on a tiny pension.她非常穷，靠一点养老金度日。Be down and out 身无分文的I know what it is to be down and out. Ten years ago, I was working in New York and I didn&`&t have enough money to rent a room.我懂得身无分文的感觉。10年前，我在纽约工作，租房子都没有钱。Dirt poor 穷到吃土的I've been out of a job for half a year and I am dirt poor now.我已经失业半年了，穷到吃土了。今日挑战正确选项是哪一个呢？写在留言处并翻译句子We ___ don&`&t lead a life of luxury ___ we&`&re not poor ___.A. certainly…but…tooB. certainly…but…eitherC. also…and…tooD. too…and... certainly

【微信公众平台】搜索“英语口语每天学”，获取独家免费英语学习资料【新浪微博】@笨老撕Poor thing 真可怜Peter: I'm not feeling well. I've been having a cold for a week. 我感觉不太舒服。我感冒已经一周了。Lisa: Oh you poor thing! 啊，真可怜！Poor 蹩脚的；不好的My grandpa has been in poor health for several years.我爷爷近几年一直以来身体都不太好。Be in poor/bad taste 粗俗的His jokes are in bad taste. I don't like him.他的笑话都很粗俗，我不喜欢他。Be as poor as a church mouse 很穷She was as poor as a church mouse, living on a tiny pension.她非常穷，靠一点养老金度日。Be down and out 身无分文的I know what it is to be down and out. Ten years ago, I was working in New York and I didn&`&t have enough money to rent a room.我懂得身无分文的感觉。10年前，我在纽约工作，租房子都没有钱。Dirt poor 穷到吃土的I've been out of a job for half a year and I am dirt poor now.我已经失业半年了，穷到吃土了。今日挑战正确选项是哪一个呢？写在留言处并翻译句子We ___ don&`&t lead a life of luxury ___ we&`&re not poor ___.A. certainly…but…tooB. certainly…but…eitherC. also…and…tooD. too…and... certainly

欢迎订阅微信公众号“老虎小助手”，点击右下角“会员中心”，收听超过8000个有声资源。亲子英文（14）Wash your hands before dinner.晚餐前先洗手。培养孩子的卫生习惯很重要哦，所以要叮咛孩子在吃东西前一定要记得洗手哦，这是祈使句，不需要主语，直接用动词原形来表达，比如孩子忘记开灯保护眼睛，爸妈可以叮咛孩子“Turn on the light before you read a book.”意思是看书前先把灯打开。而before是把两个动作连接起来，意思是……之前……Go brush your teeth before you wash your face.Peter: Mom,What's for dinner tonight?Mom:We're having beef curry and rice today.Peter: When will it be ready?Mom: In about ten more minutes.Help me set the table first,will you?Peter: I'm happy to do it.Set the table是指将餐具摆好准备吃饭的意思，所以妈妈在煮饭的时候，要请小朋友帮忙摆餐具，就可以说“Would you help me set the table?”小朋友也可以做一些简单的事情帮妈妈减轻负担哦。

欢迎订阅微信公众号“老虎小助手”，点击右下角“会员中心”，收听超过8000个有声资源。亲子英文（14）Wash your hands before dinner.晚餐前先洗手。培养孩子的卫生习惯很重要哦，所以要叮咛孩子在吃东西前一定要记得洗手哦，这是祈使句，不需要主语，直接用动词原形来表达，比如孩子忘记开灯保护眼睛，爸妈可以叮咛孩子“Turn on the light before you read a book.”意思是看书前先把灯打开。而before是把两个动作连接起来，意思是……之前……Go brush your teeth before you wash your face.Peter: Mom,What's for dinner tonight?Mom:We're having beef curry and rice today.Peter: When will it be ready?Mom: In about ten more minutes.Help me set the table first,will you?Peter: I'm happy to do it.Set the table是指将餐具摆好准备吃饭的意思，所以妈妈在煮饭的时候，要请小朋友帮忙摆餐具，就可以说“Would you help me set the table?”小朋友也可以做一些简单的事情帮妈妈减轻负担哦。

欢迎订阅微信公众号“老虎小助手”，点击右下角进入“会员中心”，收听全套英文启蒙课程。亲子英文（4）How are you？和宝贝一起打开愉快的话匣子。打招呼的方式有很多用语，比如我们最常用的“Hello”，或是“Hi”等。How are you？也可以看作是加长版的Hello，另外还有How‘s it going?和What's up？一句How are you?可以回答的有I'm fine.我很好。I'm good.我很好。Bad!不好！问候也可以根据时间段来表达：Good morning, mom?早安，妈。Morning，son.早安，儿子。其他时间我们可以说Good afternoon.下午好/Good evening.晚上好/Good night晚安看一个小对话：Peter:Good morning ,mom.Mom:Good morning,sweetie.You finally got up.Peter:I'm still sleepy.Mom:Did you stay up late last night?Peter:No,I couldn't fall asleep last night.Sweetie是甜心的意思，表示亲密的用语还有honey，baby。Stay up late有熬夜的意思。Asleep是指进入睡眠的状态，fall asleep中fall是动词，搭配在一起用就是指入睡，睡着。Finally有最终的含义，在这里用是终于。看看可以活学活用的单词哦：Afternoon下午Asleep睡着的Evening傍晚，晚上Hello你好Hi嗨Morning早上Night夜晚Sleepy想睡的Did you stay up all night?你昨晚熬夜了吗？那么stay in表示待在家里，例如:The doctor told him to stay in for a few days.医生嘱咐他在家里待上几天不要外出。Stay out指待在外面，不在家，例如：He stayed out all night.他彻夜未归。打开话匣子，什么能说什么不能轻易告诉陌生人，孩子们还是需要分辨清楚的，不如爸爸妈妈和孩子们在家里角色扮演，让他们了解危险怎么避开。

欢迎订阅微信公众号“老虎小助手”，点击右下角进入“会员中心”，收听全套英文启蒙课程。亲子英文（4）How are you？和宝贝一起打开愉快的话匣子。打招呼的方式有很多用语，比如我们最常用的“Hello”，或是“Hi”等。How are you？也可以看作是加长版的Hello，另外还有How‘s it going?和What's up？一句How are you?可以回答的有I'm fine.我很好。I'm good.我很好。Bad!不好！问候也可以根据时间段来表达：Good morning, mom?早安，妈。Morning，son.早安，儿子。其他时间我们可以说Good afternoon.下午好/Good evening.晚上好/Good night晚安看一个小对话：Peter:Good morning ,mom.Mom:Good morning,sweetie.You finally got up.Peter:I'm still sleepy.Mom:Did you stay up late last night?Peter:No,I couldn't fall asleep last night.Sweetie是甜心的意思，表示亲密的用语还有honey，baby。Stay up late有熬夜的意思。Asleep是指进入睡眠的状态，fall asleep中fall是动词，搭配在一起用就是指入睡，睡着。Finally有最终的含义，在这里用是终于。看看可以活学活用的单词哦：Afternoon下午Asleep睡着的Evening傍晚，晚上Hello你好Hi嗨Morning早上Night夜晚Sleepy想睡的Did you stay up all night?你昨晚熬夜了吗？那么stay in表示待在家里，例如:The doctor told him to stay in for a few days.医生嘱咐他在家里待上几天不要外出。Stay out指待在外面，不在家，例如：He stayed out all night.他彻夜未归。打开话匣子，什么能说什么不能轻易告诉陌生人，孩子们还是需要分辨清楚的，不如爸爸妈妈和孩子们在家里角色扮演，让他们了解危险怎么避开。