Podcasts about American System

Q&A from subscribers of phyle.co  Doug answers about his major influences, experiences in the commodities market, and the best states to live in the U.S. Doug shares a unique perspective on hunting for good investments, the pros and cons of different measurement systems, and potential global economic shifts. He also provides insights into the Canadian banking system, the potential for geopolitical tensions with China, and investments in revenue-generating real estate.  00:00 Introduction and Mentors 06:54 Getting Started in Commodities 09:48 Best US States to Live In 12:12 US Bonds and Dollar Selloff 16:23 Gold as a Safe Haven 17:32 Housing Market Insights 21:04 Metric vs. American System 24:44 Canada's Banking and Economic Concerns 27:30 The Canadian Dilemma: Assets and Expatriation 29:01 Gold's Supercycle: Insights and Speculations 32:04 Debating Antitrust Laws and Market Dynamics 34:30 Investing in Royalty and Streaming Companies 35:47 Exploring Cambodia and Southeast Asia 38:27 Self-Sufficiency in Argentina 40:14 Starting a New Country: Challenges and Possibilities 42:51 Bitcoin vs. Gold: A Financial Debate 45:59 Guyana's Growth and Sociopolitical Landscape 49:40 Potential Hot War with China: Implications 52:24 Real Estate Investments: Doug's Perspective 53:22 Conclusion and Upcoming Projects

In this week's episode of The Sportsmen's Voice Roundup, Fred covers all the news fit to print about the world of hunting, fishing and shooting policy including the 75th anniversary of the Sport Fishing Restoration Act, a deep dive into the American System of Conservation Funding, and recent legislative developments in Maine, Oregon, Minnesota, and Georgia, along with emphasizing the importance of self-funding conservation programs and the role of sportsmen and women in wildlife management.    Takeaways Sport Fish Restoration Act: This important Act has been crucial for aquatic resource conservation for 75 years. Firearm Transfer Waiting Period In Maine: CSF is working hard on repealing a 72-hour waiting period for firearm transfers. Crossbows In Minnesota: Crossbows are being fully included in Minnesota's archery season, in a big win for accessibility for hunters.   Get the FREE Sportsmen's Voice e-publication in your inbox every Monday: www.congressionalsportsmen.org/newsletter   Sign up for FREE legislative tracking through CSF's Tracking the Capitols tool: www.congressionalsportsmen.org/tracking-the-capitols/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

President Donald Trump's latest tariffs are set to take effect this week, DOGE discovered non-citizens are obtaining social security numbers through asylum applications and subsequently voting in what appears to be a massive scandal, NBC sounded the alarm regarding Trump serving a third term in office, the United Kingdom's sentencing counsel introduced a new era reminiscent of Jim Crow's America, we admonished Steven's shark knowledge or lack thereof, and so much more!GUEST: Josh FirestineLAST CHANCE: Get $20 OFF Rumble Premium TODAY with Promo Code: RUMBLELIVE https://rumble.com/c/StevenCrowderGo to https://puretalk.com/crowder to save 50% off your first monthGo to https://cbdistillery.com/ and use code CROWDER to save 25% offGo to https://fieldofgreens.com/ use code CROWDER to save 20% offGo to https://twc.health/crowder and use promo code crowder to save $90 plus free shippingOrder today at http://www.1775coffee.com/CROWDER - code CROWDER to save 15% off your orderSOURCES: https://www.louderwithcrowder.com/sources-march-31-2025DOWNLOAD THE RUMBLE APP TODAY: https://rumble.com/our-appsJoin Rumble Premium to watch this show every day! http://louderwithcrowder.com/PremiumGet your favorite LWC gear: https://crowdershop.com/Bite-Sized Content: https://rumble.com/c/CrowderBitsSubscribe to my podcast: https://rss.com/podcasts/louder-with-crowder/FOLLOW ME: Website: https://louderwithcrowder.com/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/scrowder Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/louderwithcrowder Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stevencrowderofficialMusic by @Pogo

Barbara McQuade discussed freedom of speech and hate speech . McQuade is a professor from practice at Michigan Law at the University of Michigan Ann Arbor. From 2010 to 2017, he served as the US attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan. Dr. Mitchel Sollenberger discussed the separation of power in the American System. He is a professor of political science at the University of Michigan, Dearborn. Shahad Atiya discussed immigration and deportation. She is an Attorney specializing in immigration, international family law, and criminal matters. She is also a professor of Crimmigration at the University of Michigan - Dearborn. The episode was broadcast on March 21, 2025 US Arab Radio can be heard on wnzk 690 AM, WDMV 700 AM, and WPAT 930 AM. Please visit: www.facebook.com/USArabRadio/ Web site : arabradio.us/ Online Radio: www.radio.net/s/usarabradio Twitter : twitter.com/USArabRadio Instagram : www.instagram.com/usarabradio/ Youtube : US Arab Radio

Neil Woods spent fourteen years as an undercover police officer, helping dismantle some of Britain's most notorious drug gangs.Yet after his biggest victory he came to the conclusion: was it worth it?He started to feel that the problem was helped by repeated failures of governments to tackle the cause of Britain and America's drugs epidemic. In fact by handing control of drugs supply to criminals governments were the cause.‘A doctor controlling it (drugs supply) with a prescription pad has no incentive to find new customers and so the market doesn't develop. So what happened is it becomes a pyramid scheme. If you're organised crime, you want to find new customers, you find someone who's addicted and you say, ‘Look, if you find five more customers and you sell to them, they'll pay for your habit' and the pyramid scheme explodes.'Neil's views are controversial views. But they are compelling. In this interview Neil describes:* How the world used to experience two competing drug policies: The American System and The British System - with the American System winning.* How following criminalisation in the 1960s, addicts fell into the hands of organised crime.* How some schemes decriminalising drugs have worked in recent years.To find out more about Neil and to get copies of his books ‘Good Cop, Bad War' and ‘Drug Wars' click here: https://www.neilwoods.net/ This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit robertmurphy.substack.com/subscribe

In addition to our regular weekly podcast, we also host an Ask Us Anything Live on YouTube once a month where the Frequent Miler team answers listener questions about points, miles, rewards cards, and whatever else comes to mind. This episode originally aired on August 14, 2024.  (10:19) - Does Cathay Pacific still do multi-cabin award pricing? I tried both as a one-way and multi-city routing and the price remains the same online and speaking to a rep on phone.  (10:59) - How often can I upgrade - downgrade Surpass to Aspire and vice versa?  (13:22) - You educate us with helpful info. Do you ever have the chance to talk to banks, airlines or hotel programs to influence them?  (15:45) - ​​I have the Wyndham earner biz card and did the AC status match in Feb 2023. I've heard you can rematch at Oceans casino after 18 months. Does Hard Rock have any restrictions on rematching  (17:28) - ​​I have the Wyndham earner biz card and did the AC status match in Feb 2023. I've heard you can rematch at Oceans casino after 18 months. Does Hard Rock have any restrictions on rematching  (18:50) - When you all fly from the US in the evening and arrive in Europe in the mornings, do you typically book another night at the hotel or try and check in early? How do you handle that gap before checkin?  (25:02) - ​​I have about $15k of previously unexpected spend in the next few months, in five chunks of around $3k. What current credit cards offers would y'all pick to parlay that into lounges/status/etc? Thanks!  (27:25) - ​​Probably a question for Greg - is there a way to add a non-AF/KLM frequent flier # to a Flying Blue award? I recently matched to ITA Executive status and want to add to an AF award.  (28:36) - ​​I'm Hyatt globalist. Status match to American Airlines. How do I find the status challenge back with Hyatt?  (35:25) - Hi! I was curious about the timing for the cruises. When you receive the offer, is there a time you have to book, or is the offer for a specific cruise? I'm trying to figure out how to time it.  (38:40) - What is one sweet spot you hope to do in the near future? Either because you're afraid it will disappear soon, or because you just haven't done it yet?  (45:57) - ​​Question about Cap One lounges. I have a regular Cap One Venture card and 2 passes. Can I use the 2 passes on one visit, or do they only work for cardholders?  (46:24) - ​​What did you guys end up doing with your Amex Gold? Keep or cancel?  (50:10) - I don't have any travel plan for next 8 months, but i was targeted for 0.5 cents per point, (Hilton) - do you recommend to buy preemptive or should i wait and hoping that same offer will be back?  (51:21) - I plan to downgrade my Ritz to apply for BONVOY Brilliant. How long do I need to wait after the downgrade from Ritz to get approved?  (54:15) - ​​Is it possible to book an Aeroplan stopover with multiple stops?  (58:01) - Do you have a video that talks about American System-wide upgrades? Just used AA SWU from Tokyo to Japan for 3 people. Paid $1,800 total for $33,000 (website costs) for business class

Fred is joined in this week's lead story for the Sportsmen's Voice Roundup by CSF's Assistant Manager for the Southwestern States, Barry Snell. Barry and Fred talk about ‘the Alamo for sportsmen in America' - the proposed cat hunting ban in Colorado, and how citizens from around the country can get involved and help fight the fight.    Then, dive in with Fred as he covers all the news that's fit to print for sportsmen around the nation, including a North Atlantic Right Whale conservation update, proposed excise tax on ammo in Nebraska, New Hampshire updates electronic Duck Stamp regulations, and a successful NCSL reception held in Kentucky!   Takeaways Get Involved To Save Cat Hunting In Colorado: Regulated hunting in Colorado is under attack. This November, Coloradans will be voting on a ballot measure that—if passed—would prohibit the hunting of mountain lions and bobcats across the state. Learn more at: https://wildlifedeservebetter.com Protecting Sportsmen's Interests in Ballot Initiatives and Referenda – Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation A New Direction For Right Whale Conservation: Explore the Manchin/Graham “Protecting Whales, Human Safety And The Economy Act”, a proposed piece of legislation that would shift the conversation on North Atlantic Right Whale conservation.  New Hampshire Duck Stamp Update: Governor's Caucus Chair Chris Sununu signed a piece of legislation updating NH duck stamp regulations to be in line with the federal government. Electronic Duck Stamps – Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation Proposed Excise Tax on Ammo in NE: Special session to address a proposed 5% “sin tax” on ammunition purchases in Nebraska. American System of Conservation Funding – Congressional Sportsmen's Foundation Donate To Keep Proposed Initiative 91 Off the Ballot In Colorado!: https://wildlifedeservebetter.com  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Sunday, August 11th, 2024 Rev. Justin M. McCreary The last time I preached I highlighted the UU value transformation; this week I will be highlighting the UU Value Pluralism. As a liberal church in Oklahoma Pluralism is a very important value, and it isn't just about accepting different people of different spiritual identities in our circles. Pluralism is also rooted in our American System in our Bill of Rights, but even more importantly Pluralism is necessary for a free functioning democracy. I hope you can make it this Sunday when I share on Pluralism.

Felon vs. aging incumbent: Is this the best America can do? How our constitutional system is failing us, and how radical systemic changes could save it.   Read More: www.WhoWhatWhy.org

Trump attorney and candidate for MO Attorney General Will Scharf shares some good news in studio with the show.  Is there any bad news right now?  Not if you're in the Trump campaign.  He also has some news on how the Bragg sentencing in NY might change now after SCOTUS.  

Fred catches up with Ben O'Brien of Woodside Media for this week's feature episode of the Sportsmen's Voice podcast. After covering the pair's turkey hunting exploits this year, the conversation dives deep into the fascinating history of the American system of conservation funding, the significance of storytelling and education in conservation, and the impact of hunting on society. The discussion delves into the history of conservation funding, the importance of understanding and advocating for these systems, and the need for continuous updates and improvements. Ben gives a masterclass in the historical context of conservation funding through Pittman-Robertson and Dingell-Johnson, the challenges of bipartisan cooperation, and the potential impact of the backpack tax on wildlife restoration.    Fred and Ben also explore the decline in hunting and fishing participation, the role of the outdoor recreation economy, and the need to bridge the gap between hunting and outdoor enthusiasts. The conversation delves into the importance of wildlife conservation, the role of hunters and anglers in wildlife management, the need for open dialogue and understanding between different conservation perspectives, and the launch of Ben's new venture, Woodside Media which is focused on storytelling and marketing for conservation organizations. Takeaways It is critically important for sportsmen and women to understand and advocate for the American System of Conservation Funding. Ben shares the historical context of conservation funding and the importance in understanding the current challenges and opportunities in wildlife restoration. Bipartisan cooperation is essential for the effective implementation of conservation funding. The backpack tax is a potential solution that would require support from both the sporting community and other outdoor recreation enthusiasts. The decline in hunting and fishing participation, along with the rise of the outdoor recreation economy, highlights the need to bridge the gap between these two groups and find common ground in protecting wild spaces. Ben explores the idea and history around the “backpack tax” and how additional funding would contribute to wildlife and habitat management and restoration. The challenges associated with such a model raises important questions. Get the FREE Sportsmen's Voice e-publication in your inbox every Monday: www.congressionalsportsmen.org/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

ILANA believes that America's open, even-energetic support for Israel's genocide in Gaza is a defining event in the annals of American foreign policy, and that this failure is qualitatively different from blunders that went before. In its role in Gaza, Uncle Sam has finally achieved an official or formal inversion of all decent, universal values. Former supporters of Israel, like ilana Mercer, David Vance and Daniel McAdams, Executive Director of the Ron Paul Institute for Peace and Prosperity, are aghast. Can we claw back from the precipice? DAVID believes that US Foreign Policy in almost every respect is self-defeating although perhaps that is the aim. David makes it abundantly clear he supports Israel wiping Hamas off the face of the earth but he does NOT support the mass punishment of the people of Gaza. To ilana's question, “Is Gaza much more than an American foreign-policy failure,” Mr. McAdams, who co-produces and co-hosts the “Ron Paul Liberty Report” with Dr. Paul, replies, however, with considered calm and wisdom. Mr. McAdams proceeds to shepherd viewers of the HARD TRUTH podcast through the ins-and-outs of US foreign policy and the crooked dynamics at play among lobbyists in Washington D.C. and beyond. To counter ilana's gloomy Cassandra—and bolstered by a deep grasp of the American System as it is and as it should be—Daniel melds principle with policy in presenting a way forward: “A prosperous America is profoundly linked to a foreign policy rooted in peaceful relations and trade with all. With peace, comes real prosperity.” Daily, over decades, alongside Dr. Ron Paul and independently; Daniel McAdams has done the work of the Lord in explaining to a stiff-necked people, Americans, why current US foreign policy is antithetical to peace and prosperity; to life and liberty, at home and abroad.   Also try watching the video CONNECT WITH DAVID: DAVID VANCE is one of the most outspoken, fearless political commentators in the UK and bears the scars for it. Having been in front-line politics as Deputy Leader of the UK Unionist Party for some years, he was delighted to oppose the anti-democratic Belfast Agreement and the Clintonian-Blair forces behind that. He even wrote a book about it all called “Unionism Decayed” (2008). David has been a successful businessman for decades and prides himself on his independence. He has turned in stellar appearances on ALL mainstream UK political programs, before being … cancelled. He doesn't care! He and ilana mercer have joined forces to create the punch-in-the-gut HARD TRUTH channel. Contacts: https://gettr.com/user/davidvance & https://gab.com/DAVIDVANCE DavidVance.net CONNECT WITH ILANA: Ilana Mercer has been writing a weekly, paleolibertarian think piece since 1999. Her new book is ‘The Paleolibertarian Guide To Deep Tech, Deep Pharma & The Aberrant Economy'(February, 2024). She's the author of “Into the Cannibal's Pot: Lessons for America From Post-Apartheid South Africa” (2011)), and other books. Mercer is described as “a system-builder. Distilled, her modus operandi has been to methodically apply first principles to the day's events.” Columns: https://www.ilanamercer.com/weekly-column/ Subscribe: https://www.ilanamercer.com/mailing-list/ Blog : https://barelyablog.com/ Books: https://tinyurl.com/d36rtt8u Podcast: https://rumble.com/c/HardTruthPodcast LinkedIn: https://tinyurl.com/yu6268at Twitter: https://twitter.com/IlanaMercer       LINKS: https://ronpaulinstitute.org/ https://ronpaulinstitute.org/category/liberty-report/  RELATED READING: https://ronpaulinstitute.org/jewish-supremacism-like-american-exceptionalism-breeds-barbarism/  

GUEST 1 OVERVIEW: Paul Serran is a Brazilian writer who delves into geopolitics and contributes to the discourse surrounding The Great Awakening. His articles have been featured in various publications, including The Gateway Pundit, Art Voice, and Free Republic. You can find more of his work at his Substack SIGNAL TO NOISE https://paulserran.substack.com/ GUEST 2 OVERVIEW: Nancy Spannaus is President of American System Now. She's a graduate of Bryn Mawr College and Columbia University, getting her B.A. in philosophy at the former in 1965, and a Masters degree at the latter. She's author of “Hamilton Versus Wall Street: The Core Principles of the American System of Economics” and “Defeating Slavery: Hamilton's American System Showed the Way”.

This is an excerpt from my podcast This Week in Geopolitics. I record new episodes every Monday so give me a follow if you would like to see more! --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/haisean/support

We play RANTS and talk about the American System of Government and how to get it back!

On today's show, Peter Nickitas describes many good things that the Masons have done, the contributions they made to America's founding and its history by presidents and others who were Masons, the power of Alexander Hamilton's American System of Economics, and how the US Constitution has been subverted by rich private interests. GUEST OVERVIEW: Peter Nickitas is a Navy vet who saw combat in Grenada and Lebanon in 1983-84 and practiced law from 1990 to 2023. He joins Bruce to discuss the U.S. Constitution and its 27 amendments; Freemasonry (he is a Mason); the American Presidents who championed Hamilton's American System of economics (Washington, John Quincy Adams, Abraham Lincoln, William McKinley, Warren G. Harding, Franklin D. Roosevelt, and John F. Kennedy), and Israeli lawmaker Ofer Cassif, member of the Knesset, who announced that he would become a signatory to South Africa's genocide lawsuit against Israel in the Hague. Follow Pete at pjnickitas.substack.com.

On today's show, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts discusses the history of today's police/warfare state versus the constitutional republic intended by America's Founders, the ideologies undermining the U.S. today, and defends Jeffersonian Democracy against Bruce's praise of Hamilton's “American System” of economics. GUEST OVERVIEW: Dr. Paul Craig Roberts, a PhD in economics, was the Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan administration, associate editor and columnist for the Wall Street Journal, columnist for Business Week, the Scripps Howard News Service, and Creators Syndicate. He is the author of many books, including EMPIRE OF LIES, THE NEOCONSERVATIVE THREAT TO WORLD ORDER, HOW AMERICA WAS LOST: From 9/11 to The Police/Warfare State, and THE FAILURE OF LAISSEZ FAIRE CAPITALISM. He has testified before Congress on 30 occasions. And he is chairman of The Institute for Political Economy at paulcraigroberts.org, which has millions of visitors every year.

On today's show, Nancy Spannaus discusses the fraud of the 1619 Project and America's fight against slavery. GUEST OVERVIEW: Nancy Spannaus is President of American System Now. She's a graduate of Bryn Mawr College and Columbia University, getting her B.A. in philosophy at the former in 1965, and a Masters degree at the latter. She's author of “Hamilton Versus Wall Street: The Core Principles of the American System of Economics” and “Defeating Slavery: Hamilton's American System Showed the Way”. https://americansystemnow.com/  

On today's episode of Live Players, Samo Burja and Erik Torenberg discuss the legacy of Henry Kissinger. They define Kissinger's unique brand of international relations and evaluate his career through the lens of the current culture wars. Live Players is part of the Turpentine podcast network. Learn more: www.turpentine.co --- Check out Erik's new show Request for Startups featuring a rotating cast of founders and investors (including Dan) sharing their requests for startups they want to exist in the world, and also their stories of navigating the idea maze in different sectors so founders don't have to reinvent the wheel anymore. The first episode is out now - we over better dating apps, references as a service, and WeWork for productivity Watch and Subscribe on Substack: https://requestforstartups.substack.com/p/receipt-based-dating-reference-checks Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/request-for-startups-with-erik-torenberg/id1728659822 Spotify:https://open.spotify.com/show/739L1LR32QI2XyoZlRh5nv --- We're hiring across the board at Turpentine and for Erik's personal team on other projects he's incubating. He's hiring a Chief of Staff, EA, Head of Special Projects, Investment Associate, and more. For a list of JDs, check out: eriktorenberg.com. --- SPONSOR SHOPIFY: https://shopify.com/momentofzen for a $1/month trial period Shopify is the global commerce platform that helps you sell at every stage of your business. Shopify powers 10% of all e-commerce in the US. And Shopify's the global force behind Allbirds, Rothy's, and Brooklinen, and 1,000,000s of other entrepreneurs across 175 countries. From their all-in-one e-commerce platform, to their in-person POS system – wherever and whatever you're selling, Shopify's got you covered. With free Shopify Magic, sell more with less effort by whipping up captivating content that converts – from blog posts to product descriptions using AI. Sign up for $1/month trial period: https://shopify.com/momentofzen --- LINKS: Samo's Bismarck Brief: https://brief.bismarckanalysis.com/ --- X / TWITTER: @eriktorenberg @samoburja @turpentinemedia --- TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro  (00:54) Reflections on Kissinger's Career and Influence (02:15) Understanding Kissinger's Approach to World Order (06:43) Kissinger's Realism: A Deeper Look (09:30) Kissinger's Legacy and Influence on Modern Diplomacy (09:57) Applying Kissinger's Lens to Modern Foreign Policy (18:35) Sponsor: Shopify (23:44) Meritocracy (29:00) The Role of Academia in Shaping Statesmen (29:50) Simple Credos (32:00) The Nixon Tapes: A Historical Perspective (33:00) The Role of Meritocracy and Sameness in American System (34:00) The Struggles of India and the Influence of Lee Kuan Yew, former PM of Singapore (35:15) Critiques of Kissinger's Policies (42:45) The Blunt Realities of War and Politics (50:00) The Influence of Kissinger on Modern Foreign Policy

In this episode I look at Henry Clay's attempts to get tariff legislation passed in the early 19th Century, in Maurice Baxter's Henry Clay and they American System.

GUEST OVERVIEW: Nancy Bradeen Spannaus has been studying American history, with an emphasis on its economic development in general and Alexander Hamilton in particular, since the 1970s. In 1977 she co-authored a book of writings on the POLITICAL ECONOMY OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION. After retiring from a career in journalism, in 2019 she self-published the book HAMILTON VERSUS WALL STREET: The Core Principles of the American System of Economics (available at iuniverse.com). Nancy is a graduate of Bryn Mawr College and Columbia University, and a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution. https://americansystemnow.com/

I absolutely love hosting Unstoppable Mindset. I, and thus you, get to meet so many interesting and fascinating people. Jack Kountouris was born in London to a North Carolina mother and a father from Greece. He lived there until he came to the United States to attend college at Wake Forest. While in his Master's program he met a friend who had an interest, like Jack, in board games.   After college Jack and his friend decided to become business partners and formed Dimension Board Games in 2021. For a bit, Jack lived again in London while his friend lived in Denver Colorado. Jack took up a full-time career as an executive recruiter while working to help start the company. Life became easier in May of 2022 when Jack moved to West Los Angeles. Now at least the two partners were pretty much in the same relative time zones.   My time with Jack was especially interesting as Jack discusses challenges the two friends faced while starting and working to grow their business. He discusses openly the many challenges he faced as a new entrepreneur and he gives us some good lessons about how to move forward during trying times such as when the pandemic was at its height. I think you will find our time with Jack helpful and certainly inspiring.     About the Guest:   Jack Kountouris is a Greek-American entrepreneur who grew up in London and now aims to revolutionize the board game industry. With a unique cultural background stemming from his father's roots in Athens, Greece, and his mother's North Carolinian heritage, Jack brings a diverse perspective to the world of gaming.   Having spent his formative years immersed in the vibrant atmosphere of London, Jack developed a deep appreciation for art, creativity, and innovation. He obtained his bachelor's and master's degrees at Wake Forest University in North Carolina, and it was during this time that a simple pastime of playing board games with his friend ignited a spark of inspiration. Fueling their entrepreneurial spirit, they founded Dimension Board Games, and their first game, "Invasion: The Conquest of Kings," was released in May 2022.   Jack now lives in West Los Angeles, where he continues to innovate with his friend and business partner on new games while juggling a full-time career in the executive search industry. Through their captivating storytelling and immersive gameplay, they aim to leave a lasting legacy in the gaming industry for years to come.   With an indomitable entrepreneurial spirit, Jack Kountouris brings a business perspective to the emerging board game landscape, captivating audiences, and redefining what it means to deliver joy and excitement to players of all ages. His journey is a testament to the power of creativity, persistence, and a commitment to making a difference in the world.     Ways to connect with Madilynn:   www.dimensionboardgames.com is the website to my company @jackountouris is my Instagram @dimensionboardgames is my company's instagram.     About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes    Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i  capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi there everyone. Welcome once again to unstoppable mindset. And today we get to have a conversation with a really interesting person at least I find him interesting, I think you're going to as well. You're going to hear some pretty unusual things that you haven't heard on unstoppable mindset before. But it's always good to stretch the envelope. And that's as always fun. Jack Kountouris is our guest today. Jack was born in London came over here to go to Wake Forest and earned his bachelor's and master's degree. He is an executive recruiter, we'll talk about that, because I think there's some relevance of that. But mostly, he has developed an interest. And I don't want to give it away. We'll get to it. But he's developed an interest which is incredibly fascinating. And I'm anxious to hear about it. I've never met someone who's doing some of the things that he's doing, but we'll get to that. Suspense right. Anyway, Jack, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad to have you here.   Jack Kountouris ** 02:24 Hi, Michael. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be here.   Michael Hingson ** 02:27 So you, as you describe in your biography are Greek American, which is kind of fun. Father from Athens mother from was it North Carolina? Yeah.   Jack Kountouris ** 02:37 Mama from NC little town, in the Outer Banks,   Michael Hingson ** 02:40 and you didn't develop a North Carolina accent? Obviously.   Jack Kountouris ** 02:45 No, I never did. I did grow up in London. So my accent got a bit of a Britishness to it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:52 Well, there you go. Well, tell us a little bit about you. Maybe it's kind of the early Jack growing up and all that you grew up elsewhere. So that's always fun and fascinating to learn about. So I'd love to hear about the the younger Jack.   Jack Kountouris ** 03:04 Yeah, of course. Yeah. Happy to tell you. So basically, I was born in London, to an American mother and a Greek dad. So living living in the city. I was basically growing up there. I went there all throughout high school, primary school, secondary school, and then high school. And yeah, we would have vacations. Every summer we go to my dad's family in Greece, and we also visit my mom's family over in NC. Yeah, so at the time of me graduating high school, I was applying to UK as as well as US colleges. And because they had the all NC connection, I mean, my brother was actually at Duke at the time. So I had to be more in touch with my and move out there for college. So yeah, I chose wake and absolutely loved by Christ there. Stay there, find bachelors, and then my graduate degree.   Michael Hingson ** 04:02 What was Elementary and grim and high school like in London, how does it differ from what we experienced over here if you've had a chance to observe or learn more about that?   Jack Kountouris ** 04:14 Oh, yeah. So it's very similar to how Paulien wave was what you can imagine, I'm sure. Basically, education system absolutely loved it. We had school uniforms, which everything was restricted in in that way, but honestly, I liked having the uniforms because you didn't really have to stress about what you can wear every day. But yeah, absolutely loved the British system, and actually loved the friends I made made there. But actually, when it came to high school, I went to the American School in London. So they will that was more of an American System international system.   Michael Hingson ** 04:55 did well, of course, you did it in high school. So I mean, and happy exactly the same. But I know I studied German in high school and learned a lot about the whole German system. And one of the things that I learned is that they really emphasized over their learning a second language and English was one of the ones that they emphasized to the schools in London emphasize or encouraged a second language, or is that sort of the same thing as we see here?   Jack Kountouris ** 05:24 Yeah, actually, they strictly encourage it so much. I was doing French I actually switched to Spanish in around high school. But from a very early age, my primary school, we actually were learning Latin, which was a fundamental language, so they really wanted to drive language learning as early as possible.   Michael Hingson ** 05:45 Well on of course, we all know that learning languages earlier is probably easier and makes sense to do, which, which probably helps develop a broader view of the world by doing that, because I think over here, we don't tend to really encourage as much at least when I went to school, we didn't encourage as much the whole idea of necessarily learning a foreign language we, we did study some Spanish, but it wasn't really something that was greatly emphasized. So it's kind of interesting. And I learned various places in the world that in reality, it was different there than it was here.   Jack Kountouris ** 06:22 Exactly. And me doing London, me doing Latin, I think very early on, really helped me later on to develop my Spanish skills, my French, my ability to read French as well. And yeah, me just learning Latin at a very young age. really helped me develop those skills.   Michael Hingson ** 06:41 But you didn't learn to talk southern very well, huh? No, I'm not ready. I could do could really get too into.   Jack Kountouris ** 06:51 Yeah, I speak my accent and this the only thing comes out? Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 06:55 well, that's okay. What did you get your college degrees in?   Jack Kountouris ** 07:00 Yeah. So I wake first my Bachelor's my degree was in communication with a with minors in entrepreneurship and psychology as well.   Michael Hingson ** 07:12 And then masters,   Jack Kountouris ** 07:13 I'd say my master's was was in management,   Michael Hingson ** 07:16 management. Okay. And how, how have you used those since leaving college? You're an executive recruiter? And I would assume that in some ways, some of those skills are valuable.   Jack Kountouris ** 07:30 Yeah, well, actually, I recently thought about and I think like, my major and also my minors, they always they will come. They will come to me here in my everyday life now. Because as a recruiter, I'm communicating with people of like, all different, all different characteristics all the time. And, yeah, it's basically about helping people try and get the right job and vice versa, helping their jobs trying to get the right people to work new jobs. So definitely, it's more of a sales skill than I do use some psychology and like learning more about them and learning what they want. So yeah, recruiting and sales like I think it's a it's a great skill, to learn how to talk to people and learn to how to sell to people realize what they want, and see how you can help. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 08:20 well, I agree with you. It is a sales skill, and it's a good sales skill. And, for me, having sold most of my adult life, and I've worked with several recruiters, I appreciate the ones who really do it well do understand sales and the psychology of selling and the various aspects of that that really make a lot of sense. So I'm excited to, to hear that, that you're doing it and that you really do view it as kind of a sales position because I think that's absolutely correct. So it's something to definitely think about. So how has recruiting even find might ask, and this isn't something that was in your questions, but I bet you know a lot about it. How's recruiting evolved or changed with the whole advent of the pandemic?   Jack Kountouris ** 09:10 Yeah, so with the pandemic, it's been very cutthroat. I mean, I was lucky to be able to retain some forms during 2020. During the pandemic, of course, I was furloughed for that. But yeah, things in including not very cutthroat. It was a candidate LED market in a way but also company led in terms of not many companies were hiring, but there were lots of candidates out there who wanted who wanted to start working. And not a lot of them wants to move because who wants to move during pandemic FES you're in your job, then obviously, stay security job handling. Thing that things got really tough. The salaries and the rebate periods they weren't they were changed a lot make things a bit harder. But yeah, the thing of recruiting and sales is you just got to just gotta keep going. And eventually, it's law of averages, right? So eventually, the longer you do it, the more stressful come the you see   Michael Hingson ** 10:15 that things are opening more or becoming a little less stressful and the more jobs are becoming available as the pandemic, at least for the moment dies down.   Jack Kountouris ** 10:29 Yep, definitely, actually, I would say the pandemic 2020 Obviously, pandemic hit, and a lot of people lost their jobs. 2021 and 2022. People are still recovering, you could tell that some companies were were in the process of reinvigoration, and they were growing workforces again. But now in 2023, most companies are starting to start with a turn starting to do that rebuild.   Michael Hingson ** 10:58 Yeah, it's, it's going to be a challenge for a while, I sincerely hope that we don't see some other form of the virus come along that we can't deal with. So that we go back to the place where we were in 2020 and 2021. I know, I attended the National Federation of the Blind national convention in Las Vegas in 2019. But then, by the time, July came in 2020, when we would normally have a convention, of course, everything was locked down. So there was a virtual convention in 2020. And in 2021. In 2022, it opened a little bit more. So there was a hybrid kind of convention. I didn't go again, my wife was not doing really well. And she also had rheumatoid arthritis, which meant that the whole auto immune system wasn't as robust as it really needed to be. So I didn't want to put her in danger by going to the convention, and a lot of people actually did get COVID. Last year at the convention, I went this year, I didn't really hear a lot about many people actually didn't hear about anyone who was confined to the room because they caught COVID at the convention, which I thought was good. But I think at the same time, we do need to be pretty cautious about it all.   Jack Kountouris ** 12:19 Very cautious. I mean, who wants a number of very young teachers come out of nowhere?   Michael Hingson ** 12:24 Yeah. And the problem is that, that it can if some strange thing occurs, so we'll see. But I'm, I'm really happy and excited to hear that things are starting to open and it makes your job a little bit easier. Because not only do you have candidates, but you have places to start to put them which is of course what you want to do.   Jack Kountouris ** 12:48 Yes, of course.   Michael Hingson ** 12:49 So at the same time, however, when you were at Wake Forest, you developed an interest in something else, we sort of alluded to it without talking about it. We'll call it the elephant in the room. It's the fun thing in the room. But why don't you? You know, tell us a little bit about how you got into it and what it's all about?   Jack Kountouris ** 13:13 Yeah, the fun elephant in the room? Yeah. Obviously. Well, so me and my friend in business school, we loved playing board games a lot. And, and eventually, we were like playing board games. And we were thinking about, okay, how can we make this board game different? How can we make our own spin on this board game? Yeah. So eventually, we were developing and developing a new game. And then after graduation, of course, that was when COVID was at its height. So we will just indoors, we had to wait to no social life. So just being in the room all the time. So yeah, we took it amongst ourselves to just use that free time, that surplus free time, we had to just develop the board game and actually make a product, make a business and get it out there.   Michael Hingson ** 14:03 So tell us about the business and what you have so far.   Jack Kountouris ** 14:07 Of course, well, so the business we we have is a cold dimension bowl games. Our first board game invasion, the conquest of kings, was actually released last May. And we have around like hundreds of customers right now. They primarily nationwide, but some in the UK and some as well in Europe. But yeah, we still have that one game that's going strong sales are going strong for the net. But we also have a couple others in development. Of course, it's still very early on for these, a couple of games, a couple of expansions that we have in plans for the next couple of years   Michael Hingson ** 14:46 in the world of technology and so on why board games as opposed to maybe creating an electronic game?   Jack Kountouris ** 14:55 Yeah, so actually, this ties into what we talked about, about the pandemic Because mostly we're just stuck inside, we actually read so many articles about how board games were bringing people together how board games like board games offered, offered something that you couldn't really get like virtually. And if you were to stay indoors, at nights when board games came lots of popular I mean, it was a way to have your friends hang out of family without really having to go outside. So yeah, we actually saw in articles there actually a spike in both games during the pandemic. And also earlier, we noticed that the board games was a huge market. I mean, there was a there were particular niches around combat strategy board games, or uncooperative board games. And yeah, there was a huge market to take opportunity of.   Michael Hingson ** 15:51 So you, you created a game. And so it got published, sort of more when the pandemic was was slowing down, but you're seeing still pretty good sales of it, and so on. Yeah, so   Jack Kountouris ** 16:09 pretty good. We're going to a few conventions were up in is social media. So Instagram, followership, and conduct out? But yeah, primarily, conventions we're doing? We're still seeing the ad interest. We've gotten a couple of views from BoardGameGeek reviewers, and from just board game, people that habit. So yeah, we're seeing some success out there, we definitely have a game that people people really tend to enjoy. And actually, when you know, you have the product that people like, I mean, that's, that's good to get going with that.   Michael Hingson ** 16:48 What kind of comments are you getting about invaders?   Jack Kountouris ** 16:54 Yes, so we're getting, we're getting good reviews, I mean, we'd get we're getting some like, some area of critiques. Obviously, it was just me and my friends. So prior to that, we have no book, we have no board game experience in development. And we didn't really use Kickstarter, and most board games that are becoming new use Kickstarter, that's where they get the border map, or word of mouth. So us not using Kickstarter and choosing the Self Publish. That was already, in my opinion, a big hurdle that we had to accomplish. But yeah, once we got the reviews coming in, we actually got good, better insights. People who had reviewed like combat strategy games, before, they talked about our Resource Management, they talked about a combat system, there was actually one review we got, and the only downside of it was the size of a box. So yeah, people generally seem to get and seem to like our game. But on the flip side of that, obviously, there were some mistakes were made, like, little mistakes, and like the rule book and all that. And that just comes from us not having the experience of writing rule books of doing design of doing art for the bucks. So yeah, definitely, I will just improve and stuff to learn from for our next few games.   Michael Hingson ** 18:21 So what did you learn about what you did wrong? And what did you do wrong as far as creating the rules? And what would you do differently next time?   Jack Kountouris ** 18:30 Yeah, so what we did is we did like a primary primary rulebook. But yeah, what some people have been saying is, we need more like a reference guide. So what our rule but did is it did a good job in explaining the nuts and bolts of the rules. But it didn't, it didn't like the right really provide reference that you could use here in the game. And that's what it's all about. Because when you're when you haven't about the game, and you sign a game from scratch, it's like you need to you need to go to a rulebook every other time to remember this just for reference for the   Michael Hingson ** 19:07 for the rules, until you get used to it. Exactly.   Jack Kountouris ** 19:11 So adoption. That's the thing we've been working on a lot.   Michael Hingson ** 19:16 So the next time do you think you would use Kickstarter? Does that do you think give you any advantages that you didn't get to utilize in developing the first game?   Jack Kountouris ** 19:28 Yeah, so primarily, the advantage of Kickstarter that we missed out on was just the word of mouth because bought in geek that that's why the whole community of board gamers and particularly our target market demographic is and they advertised Kickstarter a lot. So they would have games like people don't even play and people just see on Kickstarter, feeling like it's interesting. And that's where you get the word of mouth. That's where you get investment as well. So I think for next few games, we We'll definitely think about about Kickstarter. Because obviously, when you have a product like this as, as opposed to a service, that means word of mouth is really everything you need to do everything you can to sell that product.   Michael Hingson ** 20:16 And in a sense, you get to generate some revenue upfront, which also helps you start to see how much interest there might be in the game.   Jack Kountouris ** 20:27 Exactly, yes. And yeah, that money aspect of it. It's it's definitely a major factor. Yeah, if there's investment in the original kick slow, that means, okay, we've got something then that gives us so much confidence. So yeah, I think definitely, that's, that's the primary thing we have learned from self publishing. So we can progress in the future.   Michael Hingson ** 20:53 As anyone yet or any company approached you to talk about, gee, maybe we should buy this and make it a bigger thing, or have you gotten to that kind of point yet?   Jack Kountouris ** 21:06 No, yeah, we're not we're not there yet. Yeah, I mean, we have talked to like retailers brick and mortar brick and mortars, but no, like, really serious conversations yet? Yeah. Who knows? Eventually, something like that might happen.   Michael Hingson ** 21:22 Have you looked at major resale or sales places where you can get them to pick up the game and sell it?   Jack Kountouris ** 21:31 Of course, and and many of the convention actually, we've done have been taken place at board game stores. We have one influencer, actually who her son runs a board game store. So when we had him review again, he actually published he actually split the games board games store. So lots of customers could come up. So yeah, board game stores, cafes, board, game cafes like that. And conventions, anywhere, we can display the game really. So people public can go buy it and say, Hey, that's a game. I don't know that. That's   Michael Hingson ** 22:06 a modality. And again, the name of the game is   Jack Kountouris ** 22:10 invasion, that Congress, the Kings,   Michael Hingson ** 22:12 the conquest of kings, which is intriguing in of itself, which, which is great. I know that in terms of doing something like this, there had to be a lot of logistics, a lot of coordination. So you and your friend, I gather both went to Wake Forest.   Jack Kountouris ** 22:33 Yes, in a master's program, we both did the masters and management. Cool.   Michael Hingson ** 22:39 And so what really got you to decide that you wanted to start a company, because that's a pretty major decision. And I appreciate that you, you too, were in an environment where certainly doing something like this could be encouraged. But what made you decide to really knuckle down and go through the rigors of starting a company?   Jack Kountouris ** 23:01 Yeah, so I remember on your earlier question, I talked about my communication and how I use the psychology mind I had. But also this is where that entrepreneurship minor ad came in. I did so much at Wake Forest, in terms of entrepreneurship, I kind of like really knew that at some point, there will be some product or some service that I would just, I would just take and run with. And honestly, I didn't really know it will be a board game until the opportunity. Opportunity came along. I mean, I really wasn't a board gamer before I met my friend from from the business school. So yeah, I think the opportunity arose because we were in business school, we have that atmosphere of like learning and requiring something better. And we had the business acumen as well, we were being taught every day. And yeah, we had the passion as well. So if you take the passion and combine it with business, it really makes for good environment and good atmosphere to actually take something, take something you love and run with it in the sense that you can actually make it make it something.   Michael Hingson ** 24:14 What's the name of your company?   Jack Kountouris ** 24:16 It's dimension board games.   Michael Hingson ** 24:18 That's right dimension board games. So people go look for Dimension board games and by invasion, the conquest of kings. But anyway, that's another story. We'll leave that for people to do. But I go back to the question about electronic versions of games. One of the things that I've noticed, and even in some games that are accessible for for blind people, one of the things that I see with electronic games is you can buy more things or buy tokens or pay to get more resources and so on. Does any of that kind of thing exist in the board game world or is that something that you think is really necessary to would focus on that would give you some additional revenue?   Jack Kountouris ** 25:04 Yeah, of course. So we have thought about certain add ons like that maybe you can add like more pieces add, like, add things to establish other abilities in the game. And we have definitely thought about in the long run, but right now we we just want to keep at the physical physical board game. Eventually, when we get popular, I mean, it's not if it's when we get popular, when we have a follower base, when we have that those many people playing our game, we will think about introducing something like that where people can really be on the lookout for for add ons for extra abilities and all that for the game. But uh, yeah, right now we just have a main focus on just just word of mouth and getting our games out there.   Michael Hingson ** 25:53 So what was it like starting a company with a friend I mean, it was an adventure. And I regard life as an adventure. So clearly, you all the two of you started on on a great adventure, and you've stuck with it. And that doesn't always happen either. So you guys obviously get along? Well?   Jack Kountouris ** 26:12 Yeah, we do. I mean, it was, it was really fun working with one of my best friends, and still really is fun to work with one of our best friends. Right now. We still do play tests, we still talk about the business, we still talk about new games we will have in production. But yeah, it was great not just to have a friend as a partner. But Tableau have a partner in general, it means that you're not really alone in innovation that you have when you have someone else who's who's working on the same thing. Makes you not have those anxieties and have that belief. Okay, I believe it. There's also someone else who believes it. So it makes you have more confidence in what you're wanting to do. And yeah, obviously working with my mom, our best friends, it was it was fantastic. And we had the we have like similar personalities well, so he can always like, talk off of each other and always build on each other. And yeah, it was absolutely fantastic.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 So where does your friend lives? He actually   Jack Kountouris ** 27:17 moved out to Denver, Colorado after graduation for Mike,   Michael Hingson ** 27:22 and what got you to Los Angeles?   Jack Kountouris ** 27:25 Well, after my graduation from work, I actually went back to London for a little bit. I worked in London, as a recruiter, I started my recruitment career. And then eventually, this past year, just over one year now, one year ago now, while my companies in London, they were opening a new LA office. So I was still young enough to take the road Shanthi I'd always thought about maybe trying out the west coast and trying out in LA. So yeah, I basically my boss was moving a few of us to start over that office in LA and I was on with the lungs shows. So we saw the LA office. And that's that's how I moved.   Michael Hingson ** 28:09 And so in a sense, it isn't is challenging from a timezone standpoint is it might be because you're only an hour difference.   Jack Kountouris ** 28:19 So now, now, it's really not as you come out when I was in London, and my friend was in Denver, a seven hour gap. Yeah, that was that was that was hard to do. But now it's much better with us only we won't be in one hour apart. So whenever I want to talk about a new game idea, or talk about it and you new marketing strategy, I can just call them and we can say, oh, that's that's capable of having to call each other.   Michael Hingson ** 28:49 Do you do that on the phone? Or on Zoom? Or how do you generally chat?   Jack Kountouris ** 28:54 When generally and zoom when, because you   Michael Hingson ** 28:57 can cat video easily just maybe   Jack Kountouris ** 28:58 an idea of what we'll do a phone call but but generally it has been zoom. So we can really like brainstorm every little idea we have. Make sure it's make sure we're doing well. But   Michael Hingson ** 29:12 yeah, and you can you can see each other which makes a lot of sense.   Jack Kountouris ** 29:16 Exactly, exactly.   Michael Hingson ** 29:19 So what kind of challenges though do you face since you have a full time job? And we appreciate I gather, you're probably taking some time from your full time job to be here this afternoon since it's only about four o'clock in the afternoon, but what kind of challenges do you face and issues do you have to encounter when you've got a full time job? Yet? You're trying to run a company which can also probably be somewhat of a full time job as well.   Jack Kountouris ** 29:49 Yeah, definitely. It's it's a struggle taking the time, and especially since I moved so recently, so when I just moved to LA and this was like last night Summer, it was it was tough to get going to know I had the job. But no, also we had to keep the ball game business going. So took a lot of like strict, regimented, scheduling. And just, I've list like, right by me on my wall of everyday things I need to do after work things I need to shake off after work every day. So yeah, you just need to be strict and regimented about it. And honestly, like, it was tough signing it up tough when I had the change. But when I, when I applied myself, and gotten in the habit of it, it really didn't become as time consuming.   Michael Hingson ** 30:41 So dimension board games started in what 2022? Was it   Jack Kountouris ** 30:47 started in starting 2021. Actually, 2021 innovation was released in 2020. Right?   Michael Hingson ** 30:53 But in 2021, you were still over in London,   Jack Kountouris ** 30:57 2021, I was still over in London, my friend was in Denver. And that's when that's when predominantly most of the game development and operations stuff happened. So that was a real challenge released in May of last year.   Michael Hingson ** 31:14 So that was a real challenge, though, because then you did have the timezone issues of being seven hours apart. That must have been fun.   Jack Kountouris ** 31:22 Yeah, that was that was really fun. And I'm sure you know this, but because Denver seven hours behind that's basically meant that because I had a full time job on weekdays, we can't do anything, because because when I came back from work, he was at work and vice versa. And when he came back from work, I was asleep. So that basically meant Saturdays, Sundays and Fridays night and Friday nights were the most optimal time to have those zoom meetings began. Again, this was when we were we were just regrouping from the pandemic. So I socialized we're still trying to get back there. So it was easier to to damage these communications.   Michael Hingson ** 32:09 Yeah, certainly is easier now. Now. Do you have a family? A wife or anything?   Jack Kountouris ** 32:16 Yeah, so that's, that's, that's a good question. Yeah, I have I have a life.   Michael Hingson ** 32:23 Are you married or anything like that? No, I'm not. So So you still have more of your own time than if you had a wife and a family that you'd have to deal with? So that probably helps a little bit too.   Jack Kountouris ** 32:36 Exactly. Yeah, that did help. Yeah. For me, like family was just my parents, my brother and my sister in law, my grandma granddad, my grandma. Yeah, no, no girlfriend yet.   Michael Hingson ** 32:49 No girlfriend yet, someday, but it'll happen. I know, for me, my wife passed away last November and my time became more my own. So working with accessiBe, which is in Israel 10 hours ahead. Sometimes, we get meetings very early in the morning, my time because they're 10 hours ahead. And so, for example, yesterday on Sunday, I had a meeting at seven in the morning, Sunday, this just yesterday. And it's easier to do when I know I don't have to worry about disturbing somebody else, just waking up a dog and a cat and they cope. But with a family when we were married for 40 years, it was always the thought of working in one place. And oftentimes I would be on one coast and company would be on the other coast. And I was transferred to various places to do things for companies. That happened through the World Trade Center. And of course, being in the World Trade Center on September 11. And then it wasn't such an issue because although I did for a while before September 11 work for companies when I was in New York, and they were in California, afterward, it was much more an issue where we were able to deal with stuff a lot closer. So I worked in, in California in Northern California for Guide Dogs for the Blind for a while, but we live there. And then afterward, it was just me running my own business that Michael Hingson group, so we didn't have to really be so challenged by different time zones. Until accessiBe came along, which they did in January of 2021. So for two years, it was a little bit of an issue or almost two years. But you know, there is something to be said for your own time. And so you can really do things on your schedule and you do have a friend you have to work with but still you guys are obviously working it out.   Jack Kountouris ** 34:44 Yeah, we're trying. It's a struggle sometimes. But it's really great working with all my best friends and it's really great. Doing something that you love and when you're in the business of fun and games it's it's really hard to separate the fun from the business.   Michael Hingson ** 35:01 Well, hopefully the business becomes fun. Yep.   Jack Kountouris ** 35:07 It's it's starting to be like we're seeing we're seeing the success coming. And that's, that's fantastic. Plus now,   Michael Hingson ** 35:15 that is exciting. It's a great thing to be able to do. So what are you learning from your first game? And as you go into future games, what are you learning about game development? There's a lot that obviously has to go into it. So what makes a perfect game? And how do you get there?   Jack Kountouris ** 35:32 Oh, yeah, so so much stuff that goes into it. So many mistakes, people land on Yang, game game development, specifically, it's a lot of trial and error, a lot of looking after loopholes and really gets tedious sometimes. But yeah, to to give you give you a little bit of perspective, one of the things one of the ways that me and my friend works so much together is he has, so he has the knack for, for thinking big and a knack for thinking of the big thinking of the big ideas, starting like out wide. And I've not to like bring him bring him in. So having the small ideas. So what I do generally is find the loopholes. So what he would do is he he'd say, okay, Jack, I got an amazing idea. And then we'd be brainstorming a lot. And we'd be thinking about how to make that idea. accessible in the game, make the idea work out. So it's not too much in gameplay, not too much, you understand that? It can work out in the game in the physical hand game when they align too many loopholes to take advantage of.   Michael Hingson ** 36:45 So do you get to the point is you're developing the game where you actually, the two of you just spend time playing the game to look for the loopholes, or the things that are working or not working?   Jack Kountouris ** 36:59 Yeah, actually, that's predominantly what is all about. So I would say that there's one stage on which is thinking, thinking ideas, getting ideas from all over the place. And then we enter another stage where we take all those ideas, and like, what, maybe one by one or two by two, so we make sure that no ideas like convoluted with each other, we will test them out. And we will see how it works in the game and see if there's a way to make it simpler. Because one of the things we were noting in game development was there was a time where our game was super complicated and super, super long as well. This was very early on. So when we were really just out of ideation, really. So every, there was a point that every play test we made, we developed like little nuances to make the game simpler and make the game shorter.   Michael Hingson ** 37:59 How long does it take to play the game? Now, if someone sits down or some people, how many people can play it at one time on the board?   Jack Kountouris ** 38:10 So yeah, the base game is three to four, but it can be played with five as well as six to base game is three, four players Tamriel played with two players in the world. But it really hits a smooth point with three, four or five players.   Michael Hingson ** 38:26 How long does it take to play a complete game?   Jack Kountouris ** 38:29 It here's the thing it read really depends. Actually. Our game is military combat. So it depends what the characteristics of the players. So if if there are four players playing who are who are really outright combat and really aggressive from from the beginning, it's a shorter game.   Michael Hingson ** 38:48 Somebody gets killed off soon. Yeah,   Jack Kountouris ** 38:51 of course. And that happened that happened a lot of times. And yeah, on the flip side, if there if there was a game where for people who like really, really like to build up their kingdoms before they fight and really want to be be cautious about that about fighting, then you have the longer games. Usually average is about two hours, maybe two and a half. But if it's your first time trying to figure out the rulebook, it's not too   Michael Hingson ** 39:18 bad. It's a it's an evenings entertainment.   Jack Kountouris ** 39:23 Exactly. And then some games out there. Some games I love out there that I love them. But that seven hours, eight hours. It's insane sometimes.   Michael Hingson ** 39:33 Yeah, I like Monopoly and monopoly you can do fairly quickly in a couple of hours and have a lot of fun with it. But the world has advanced a lot since Atlantic City and Boardwalk and Park Place. Yeah. So what what's the basic premise? Or what's the process of the game? Can you tell us a little bit about the plot and so on?   Jack Kountouris ** 39:53 Yeah, so the basic premise of the game is you have the medieval can them. So you have a kingdom of castles and roads and castle walls between castles. So you try to build that up. And the way the map is you have the resources. And the resources are inherently in the map. So the placement of your castles and where you build your castle where you build your roads, they get you that those resources and they really, they really help develop, okay, who you'll be as an empire, what kind of resources you getting. And then the next slide, which will combat aspect of it, is you have a king. And also you have soldiers who kind of follow the king and the aim of the game was to be able to take other kings crowns. And the way you do actually you use the soldiers going along with the king to create armies and all that try to siege people's castle that and try to kill people's kings kill people's armies. So yeah, that there are really two, two parts of the game that the first half of it or should I say first third of it, is just building up your kingdom, trying to manage the resource you're getting. And then the next two thirds, you're getting into siege and castles getting into getting castles and getting into actual combat which which is is fantastic. It's a fantastic way to the game.   Michael Hingson ** 41:17 So all kings no women.   Jack Kountouris ** 41:20 Yeah, so that's the thing. We did think about doing, like Queen peace and maybe for the expansions. But because we just wanted one, one overarching piece to be like the most important thing. We're like between names. And then we think of it like King King was King seemed so perfect. We weren't thinking about that as a downside. Is it? Maybe not. Not general Germany equal. But yeah, we were thinking about games like chess. Well, obviously, the king is the main piece that you have to you have to take to win the game. So you're like, Okay, it's medieval. People understand that the king is the main piece. So yeah, right. Okay, that name   Michael Hingson ** 42:05 at the same time. And chess, the queen is probably the most powerful piece on the board. Oh, yeah. So well, well, so the real question is, the very serious question is, who wins most of the games? You are your friend?   Jack Kountouris ** 42:20 Oh, I can say quite confidently. I do. There you go. Actually, it was it was funny in the in the very beginning, it was having such a hard time with the game. In the VA, in the very beginning, there was such a disparity between me and him. But yeah, occasionally, like he got good. And now we're like really equal at the game. So yeah, I won't answer who wins between me and him. But between me, him and two other friends, it's usually either me or him who went,   Michael Hingson ** 42:54 there you go. Well, the other part about it is though, you each bring, it sounds like different skills to the company and different skills to the game design, which is great, because you feed off each other. Exactly, we feed   Jack Kountouris ** 43:09 on each other, feed off each other. And it's amazing, like personally and professionally. And in the games where we feed each other. And whenever he thinks an idea, it's like I think of the idea at the same time. We like easily able to like like connect, and really. So he says, Oh, I have this idea. And then I listen and say Oh, whatever. And he's like I was just thinking of that. And it's just great to because once we start that train, it's like I I am crane. So we started different locations. But we just come together with the days we're having, and it's fantastic to be able to brainstorm like that.   Michael Hingson ** 43:51 Yeah. And it's always great when you have somebody, somebody who can really work with you that well, you guys were very fortunate that you found each other and are able to put all of this together.   Jack Kountouris ** 44:07 Exactly, yes.   Michael Hingson ** 44:09 So in in the whole process of constructing the game, where's the where's the game actually manufactured these days?   Jack Kountouris ** 44:18 So the game was originally manufactured in China. I mean, we were we were looking into into local local manufacturers. But honestly, for the money purposes, China was a blast. So the way we haven't worked is we had the units manufactured in China. And then we store them in different phone centers, one on the West Coast and one near the east coast as well so we can easily be able to distribute to our customers.   Michael Hingson ** 44:46 What I was wondering. And the reason I asked the question is what kind of affected the pandemic have for you in terms of supply chains and all that and especially since You came in as far as having a game on the market, closer to the end of the pandemic, but still, we keep hearing about supply chain problems and all that. So how's that affected you? And how have you dealt with it?   Jack Kountouris ** 45:13 Of course, like I'd say, even though our game was actually released, like, towards the end of the pandemic, we are in the midst of we are in the midst of development, and we and they were in the midst of production all throughout 2021, even 2020. Yeah, so supply chains were huge problem, especially having a ship from China. Huge shipping delays. And it really was tough to really work it out. So initially, we actually opened up pre orders, open pre orders for the game in November of 2021, just to get the holiday holiday customers. But yeah, because of the supply chains, and because of problems with production overseas, and delays and delays. It wasn't until May. And this is late May that he was actually producing it was actually available. So unfortunately, we had some customers who had pre ordered the game for the holidays in December, and only were able to get the game in May. But uh, yeah, it really was tough to work out.   Michael Hingson ** 46:21 How about now are more of the supply chain issues and so on? less of a problem.   Jack Kountouris ** 46:29 So you know, it's less of that problem. But it's it's a it's a different problem. Really. It's it's obviously like, like political situations and all that. It's, it's still a problem, like getting the shipping on time, huge delays, price increases, well, we're worth manufactories B, it's a different problem than pandemic was. So everything that was lingering from the pandemic guy in supply chains, I think that's that's become minimized.   Michael Hingson ** 47:02 But things seem to be going along pretty well. Right now, though, overall.   Jack Kountouris ** 47:09 As well as it can be. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 47:11 Do you see improving, though, over time, or is it just kind of a steady state of challenges of one sort or another, but you're able to cope with them?   Jack Kountouris ** 47:22 Yeah, status? I think the latter, honestly, sleep challenges. I mean, what were aware of the problems? We manufactured our first game in China. But yeah, honestly, like stuff has made us wonder. The second or maybe third is we'll try to manufacture them locally. Because, yeah, China, that was obviously when we were scrounging for money. And we were no, you're looking for investment. And, and the price in China was easy to manufacture. But just to optimize shipping and optimize time and all that we might be looking for affordable options that are local to the states and in the country to help speed things up rate.   Michael Hingson ** 48:06 How much does the game cost if one wants to buy it?   Jack Kountouris ** 48:09 Yes. So the game goes format goes for market rate of 59 $99. We do have continual seasonal discounts going on, at least discount for I think 30% We had another 20% discount at some point earlier this year. So yeah, we do run discounts every now and then our Instagram channels and Facebook platforms.   Michael Hingson ** 48:37 Well, is it is it a game that's also available on places like Amazon, which is obviously a big selling potential place?   Jack Kountouris ** 48:47 Now it is known among nationally. What we're doing is like E commerce. Because we're still in that stage. We're just getting a word of mouth from just getting the start. But yeah, we have looked at Amazon foam and Amazon FBA and so many hurdles to jump through. It's it's a plan, but it's a plan for the future.   Michael Hingson ** 49:10 What did you do to stand out? Um, clearly there are a lot of board games, there are a lot of demands that are being put on people's attentions and so on. What did you do to stand out to get people to pay attention to invasion?   Jack Kountouris ** 49:27 Mason? Yeah, that's a very good question. So that was I talked about how we didn't do a Kickstarter how we didn't really have to word of mouth. So that was already like, we were starting with, we assign a 15 back 15 feet back from the sideline there. And it was it was really tough to get the word of mouth. But yeah, I think the main stuff for us is we'd have we'd have influences we have with us we got on board games cake. We have people that we ask for review of the game, obviously in the beginning and the word of mouth Ain't from like friends and family. But yet it's one of those things. And we have the conventions as well. But the form of those things that you need to slow and steady wins the race, right? You need to begin from like nothing and you need to slowly build it up like an Instagram posts a day in the in the very beginning and really wasn't doing much. But now it's really getting more traction as we have more photo followership. And now we have more views on both games tickets more reputable and more credible for for people in the board games community. And, yeah, so pretty much slow and steady, slow and steady wins the race.   Michael Hingson ** 50:42 You said something earlier than say you didn't do anything with Kickstarter, and this and so on you self published, which I appreciate. But what comes to mind is that what you are doing, and what is being done is regarding your game, very much like what goes into typical publishing, especially if you're doing self publishing, you got to do all the marketing, you've got to do all the demand creation, and so on. And so I'm hearing from you the same things that I hear from a lot of people we did with with my second book that we sell published, but even our first book, you have to be involved in the marketing habit. And you're gonna always be the best salespeople for the for the game.   Jack Kountouris ** 51:29 Yeah, of course. And me, again, being being a recruiter, as my job my day job, it really brings out this this salesperson in me and I'm selling something I love. So I speak to the credibility of it. But yeah, Kickstarter, when you take power that way, it's pretty much a marketing platform. So we just had to do that without the board game community behind us. So that was the that was a hurdle for us.   Michael Hingson ** 52:00 How large is the board game community? I mean, you, you've indicated the board games are still very popular. But how large? Is it compared to like electronic games and so on? Or is it just two completely different worlds? So it doesn't really give you the ability to compare the two.   Jack Kountouris ** 52:18 So it is different? Well, you can't really make a direct comparison between the two. But it's a it's a large community. I mean, if you go on board games gig gaming caravan, or the community does their communities out there on Discord and such, there's so many board games, so many niche board games, and especially indie board games in the board, new creators. So many people just create board games, just like that. Get get board games out there. So often. It's really like an enrich community. There's so much out there so many niches of board games, resource boundary and combat cooperative, competitive. It's really a huge fantasy. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 53:03 And so the more you can do to break in and come up with plots that are going to intrigue people, the better it is.   Jack Kountouris ** 53:10 Exactly, exactly. You just need to need to have game ideas and given to people.   Michael Hingson ** 53:17 We talked before this podcast last time we met about making it accessible. And I would love to explore how and if it would be doable to make the game accessible. So blind people could play it. And there are some people that, that do some things and making card games and other games successful. So it's something to explore, not sure that it would be a huge market as such, but it would be great if, when in the future, you produce games, you can make them accessible right from the outset. So you have one game that everyone can play, whether they can see the board, or feel the board, and that you just have the same game that's available for both. And I still think that that's the best way to deal with accessibility rather than having a different product for, say people who are blind as opposed to people who are not it. It's a unique sort of thing, but it would make for a very interesting discussion point and dialogue.   Jack Kountouris ** 54:17 Oh, yeah, exactly. I mean, different different things we can do. Obviously, we have the rulebook. And if we can transfer it to braille, and I really becomes in our game, like I'm going to make the comparison to chess. Although there are some people who who know chess so much they can picture board in their heads, they can picture it and they can just make the move in their heads because they remember where everything is. Really becomes a lot like that. So maybe eventually, people can really feel the feel of Matt feel the Gameboy to know where everything is. And at that point, just just know what moves to make, based on the map pick As honestly, there is a very simple way with the resources to make the map able to make the map accessible, if you just feeling what what kind of resources I were   Michael Hingson ** 55:12 something to explore Well, if you'd like to explore that and examine it in the future, let me know. Because I think it would be fun to try to connect you with people who might be able to help with that. For you. What have you learned from this experience? So far? In terms of creating a business? What, what kind of mistakes have you made in doing the business? Or what kind of lessons have you learned that are going to help you as you go forward?   Jack Kountouris ** 55:38 Yeah, so Well, one lesson I have is to really have like a partner that you trust. And just in general, our partner, I spoke to this earlier, but they'll speak to it again. There's so much confidence when you know, there's at least one other person who has the same vision and believes in the same thing you do. It just really helps so much. The Void is anxiety, saying, Oh, what if no one likes it? Oh, what have I can't do this. But yeah, other than that, just? And yeah, you've probably heard this from the perspective of business people out there that many entrepreneurs, just the famous thing is they say, many people just fail at that first. And the first Ventures we have, we have made a few mistakes with which we will definitely learn from Wait, which costs, which actually costing us money. So we learned the hard way. But I think honestly, being an entrepreneur, having a business like this, learning the hard way is really goes with the function of it.   Michael Hingson ** 56:45 What has all of this taught you that you can use in your full time regular job of being a recruiter? Because I'm sure that this must give you some empathy or better understanding of some of the things and are some of the places where you might be sending people I would think.   Jack Kountouris ** 57:04 Yeah, so in recruitment, won't. What I will say is, sometimes you see people with CVS, and it's really black and white, sometimes the hiring manager, you see people with CVS, you see they're doing this passion project on the side, you see what they're doing on the side. And many of you will be like, Okay, what's relevant in that, because obviously, if you're doing something on the side, it's not really a full time job. But yet, it's given me a chance to have more patience and learn more about the the individual people not just about what they've been doing, how long they've been doing, and what they've accomplished, which, obviously, the name of the game in terms of equipment, but learn more about them on the people side of things, learn more about what drives them to learn more about their motivations.   Michael Hingson ** 57:52 Studying psychology is a wonderful thing. But there's nothing like living it and seeing it in action to really be a great tool for you teaching yourself how to do it better.   Jack Kountouris ** 58:04 Yep, that's exactly right, Michael.   Michael Hingson ** 58:07 It's, it's as good as it gets. It's kind of fun. What's the future for Dimension board games then? So you're obviously working on games, anything you can talk about?   Jack Kountouris ** 58:17 Yeah, a few things I can talk about. I don't want to talk talk too much, because it's pretty much in development. But we do have a few expansions may be coming. Another edition possibly for like next two years, or 2324 25. And eventually, we'd want to be in a place where we can just come up with with different games and be able to reuse, create the games we love and see if they're good enough.   Michael Hingson ** 58:50 Do you think your games will continue to be sort of battle and conquest type games? Or are there other kinds of plots you might explore?   Jack Kountouris ** 58:59 What I will say is ones, the ones we are thinking now and then backbend and the ones in development. They are combat. They are they are similar to the first game, but we do we are think about one that's that sets more than in this space mindset, which is more of a 2025 thing. We haven't really begun develop development on that so much, because we've just been focusing on invasion and the expansions and the other ones we have more immediately. But a yet a long, long term. Long term goal is to be thinking of games in another situation. So space and stuff   Michael Hingson ** 59:38 like that. Question. Strategy games, though, are pretty popular. And so I'm not surprised.   Jack Kountouris ** 59:43 Exactly, exactly. And if if we have a chance to create a classic game like Monopoly or Scrabble, that's more mainstream, then that'd be fantastic as well.   Michael Hingson ** 59:54 Well, this is absolutely been fun. And as I said, I've never been able to have discussion like this, and I've learned a lot. And you've also given us some wonderful things to think about just good life lessons about entrepreneurship and the fact that when you work on something, you have to deal with setbacks. But at the same time, you need to look forward and move forward. And you've clearly done that you and your, your partner have done a lot of that, which is really exciting. And I appreciate the, the lessons and the thoughts that you've brought to us. If people want to learn more about invasion and learn more about you, and so on. How do they do that?   Jack Kountouris ** 1:00:35 So yeah, I'm obviously you can look me up on LinkedIn, Jack Kountouris or on Facebook or any of the socials. But for dimension, board games, our Instagram handles at dimension board games, our URL is dimensionboardgames.com. Very simple like that. And also, we have a link from them to voting Schaik on our website, so you can see the more in depth reviews of the game on the invasion, the Congress, the Kings on board game, board games kick. So if you're looking for reviews of the game, just go to bogging games geek or even go to a Instagram page, because eventually, because sometimes we do post some reviews out there.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:19 spell your name so people can find you easily if they want to go to LinkedIn, and so on   Jack Kountouris ** 1:01:24 J A C K  K O U N T O U R I S   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:34 So hunt down Jack and learn about invasion, the conquest of kings and dimension board games. And that sounds like there's a lot of exciting stuff coming up. And I'm going to try to keep up with it. And I'm hoping that we can maybe work together to make something accessible. I think that we don't as blind people get to share a lot of that stuff. And sometimes a few games are made somewhat accessible, or sometimes they're made fairly accessible, but it's still a small population compared to what's out there. So it would be fun to see some games come out right from the outset that worked for everyone.   Jack Kountouris ** 1:02:16 Thanks so much, Michael. Well, I   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 really appreciate it. And I appreciate you listening to us out there or watching us if you're doing it on YouTube. We really would love your comments, please feel free to send me any comments and thoughts and emails you have, you can reach me at Michaelhi m i c h a e l h i at accessiBe A C C E S S I B E.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcasts. And Michael hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n.com/podcast. Please give us a five star rating. We appreciate your ratings. We appreciate your reviews. And please not only rate but give us reviews. We love that. And I'm sure that Jack would love it if you say nice wonderful things about this when you hear it because that'll help what he's doing as well and we very much admire what you're doing. So I want to thank you one more time for being here and taking your time to come and talk to us about the game and what you're doing.   Jack Kountouris ** 1:03:20 Thanks so much, Michael And thanks, everyone for listening.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:27 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com. accessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Last week I went through ten authors and a number of books that have shaped my life and thinking. I include the full list below. This quote from Neil Postman highlights the significance of reading. One must begin, I think, by pointing to the obvious fact that the written word, and an oratory based upon it, has a content: a semantic, paraphrasable, propositional content. This may sound odd, but since I shall be arguing soon enough that much of our discourse today has only a marginal propositional content, I must stress the point here. Whenever language is the principal medium of communication—especially language controlled by the rigors of print—an idea, a fact, a claim is the inevitable result. The idea may be banal, the fact irrelevant, the claim false, but there is no escape from meaning when language is the instrument guiding one's thought. Though one may accomplish it from time to time, it is very hard to say nothing when employing a written English sentence. What else is exposition good for? Words have very little to recommend them except as carriers of meaning. The shapes of written words are not especially interesting to look at. Even the sounds of sentences of spoken words are rarely engaging except when composed by those with extraordinary poetic gifts. If a sentence refuses to issue forth a fact, a request, a question, an assertion, an explanation, it is nonsense, a mere grammatical shell. As a consequence a language-centered discourse such as was characteristic of eighteenth- and nineteenth-century America tends to be both content-laden and serious, all the more so when it takes its form from print. [Postman, Neil. Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show Business (pp. 49-50). Penguin Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.] Books and Authors W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy and The Pursuit of God. Blaise Pascal, Pensées, many editions. I prefer the Penguin ed. See also the collection The Mind on Fire. Carl F. H. Henry, God, Revelation, and Authority, 6 vols. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, Abolition of Man, Miracles, God in the Dock, Screwtape Letters. Francis Schaeffer, all of his books, but especially The God Who is There, He is there and He is not Silent, How Should We Then Live?, True Spirituality, and Whatever Happened to the Human Race? K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy and The Everlasting Man. Harold Netland, Dissonant Voices and Encountering Religious Pluralism Harry Blamires, The Christian Mind. I. Packer, Knowing God and Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God. P. Moreland, Scaling the Secular City and Love Your God With All Your Mind. James W. Sire, The Universe Next Door: A Basic Worldview Catalogue, Habits of the Mind, and Scripture Twisting: Twenty Ways Cults Misinterpret the Bible. John Calvin, The Institutes. John Stott, The Cross of Christ and Basic Christianity. Ken Myers, All God's Children and Blue Suede Shoes: Christians and Popular Culture. Marshall McLuhan, Understanding Media: Extensions of Man. Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death, Technopoly, and The End of Education. Os Guinness, The Dust of Death, God in the Dark, Prophetic Untimeliness, A Time for Truth, The Call, and all the rest. J. Rushdoony, Institutes of Biblical Law, The Messianic Character of American Education, This Independent Republic, The Nature of the American System, The Politics of Guilt and Pity, and many more. Rebecca Merrill Groothuis, Women Caught in the Conflict and Good News for Women. Richard John Neuhaus, The Naked Public Square. Augustine, The Confessions. Thomas Sowell, The Politics and Economics of Race and A Conflict of Visions. Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults.   Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

For regular listeners, you know I like to take on complicated subjects, and try to make clear what's at stake for all of us.   In this episode the Bill Walton Show we take a another deep dive into one of the most complicated and contentious areas of economic policy:  International trade.  International trade negotiations are incredibly complex multilevel games—there are negotiations not just with America's trading partners, but with Congress, domestic constituencies, and rival factions within the executive branch.  There are sharp - almost theological - differences in how trade policy ought to work. I was taught that protectionism was terrible and that free trade was the highest good, but then found few examples of countries that actually practice it. It's now clear that we cannot simply trust the principles of "free trade" to solve our problems -- that every trade policy represents a balancing of interests. The stakes have never been higher. Today we find ourselves in a position where our most important trading partner - China - has essentially revealed itself to be our mortal enemy. Trade is no longer a boring topic. To break all this down I'm delighted to be joined in this episode by Robert Lighthizer, our US Trade Representative in the Trump Administration.  For more than 40 years, Bob Lighthizer has litigated, negotiated, and editorialized against the policies of one-sided “free trade” first in the Reagan Administration as Deputy Trade Rep and as a private lawyer.  As President Trump's U.S. Trade Representative, he fought against globalists, importers, lobbyists, foreign governments and big businesses whose interests diverged from those of the American workers and American security.  Now Bob's published a illuminating book “No Trade is Free” that for anyone interested in understanding the realities of international economic policymaking, this is the book.  Part memoir, part history, and part policy analysis, Bob lays out in detail what he sees as the objectives of a practical approach to trade policy. Bob's views on this subject have been remarkably consistent since the late 1990s when he editorialized against granting China admission to the WTO. At that time, he was a lonely voice in the wilderness.  Now his views are mainstream. We cover a lot a ground in this episode, from the role trade disputes played in the American Revolution, the American System of tariffs used to build up American industry to the pivotal entry of China into the World Trade Organization. Since then China has become trade issue Number One.  After China's entry “it created an ecosystem and learned about the subsidies and started doing all the other things that made it go from being an enormous problem to being a cataclysmic one,” explains Bob. “There is no private sector in China.” “Outsiders make money in China only as long as the Communist Party of China allows you to make it. And when you're not benefiting them, you're out. And we have all these clever American businessmen who think, "Oh, I'm making money in China." They don't realize they're simply being allowed.”  “China's purpose is for you to transfer know how, transfer technology, and help their ecosystem to get more business. And then you'll see after a period of time, you won't be useful anymore. And then, at that point, you'll find yourself with a Chinese competitor who's not only taken over your entire market in China but is now threatening your market in the United States.” “So the number one thing has to be decoupling with China without question. And there's a number of specific steps, many of which I have outlined in the chapter on the China prescription. We have to right this ship. There's a lot that needs to be done.”

Who do we have to blame for much of America's condition today? Woodrow Wilson. A single look at Wilson's doctoral thesis would have told us to be careful with him; it was on ending the American System and replacing it with monarchal system. That's what Wilson spent the next 8 years doing; 1913 being a pivotal year of it. Did women get the right to vote? Yes, and thats a good thing that he did. Did workers get better protections? Yes, and thats a good thing he did. However, the bad permanently changed the country: Income Tax, the Federal Reserve Act, The 17th Amendment, Prohibition,  The First World War and many others. America is permantly changed by the Wilson Presidency. One editors note: I mispoke on the WWI Treaty of Versailles calling it the Treaty of Paris. Yes, there were many Treaties or Paris, but this was one one of them. 

Who do we have to blame for much of America's condition today? Woodrow Wilson. A single look at Wilson's doctoral thesis would have told us to be careful with him; it was on ending the American System and replacing it with monarchal system. That's what Wilson spent the next 8 years doing; 1913 being a pivotal year of it. Did women get the right to vote? Yes, and thats a good thing that he did. Did workers get better protections? Yes, and thats a good thing he did. However, the bad permanently changed the country: Income Tax, the Federal Reserve Act, The 17th Amendment, Prohibition,  The First World War and many others. America is permantly changed by the Wilson Presidency. One editors note: I mispoke on the WWI Treaty of Versailles calling it the Treaty of Paris. Yes, there were many Treaties or Paris, but this was one one of them. 

Far too often those in political leadership rule unlawfully (and occasionally even are illegitimately placed in authority), which causes us to ask, "What should we do with this passage and God's command to obey them?" In this message titled "Submitting to (Legitimate and Lawful) Governing Authority," Pastor Bryan teaches us what the passage says, what the passage does not say, and how to apply it to our "American System of Government."

Far too often those in political leadership rule unlawfully (and occasionally even are illegitimately placed in authority), which causes us to ask, "What should we do with this passage and God's command to obey them?" In this message titled "Submitting to (Legitimate and Lawful) Governing Authority," Pastor Bryan teaches us what the passage says, what the passage does not say, and how to apply it to our "American System of Government."

If something is "good" is that good enough? Who decides? In this episode, Bill and Andrew discuss how people define "good," what interchangeability has to do with morale, and the problem with a "merit-based" culture. Bonus: Learn how Americans became the first to use the French idea of interchangeable parts in manufacturing. Note: this episode was previously published as Part 5 in the Awaken Your Inner Deming series.  TRANSCRIPT 0:00:02.3 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Bellows, who has spent 30 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. The topic for today is, Deming Distinctions: Beyond Looking Good. Bill, take it away. 0:00:30.4 Bill Bellows: Funny you mentioned that. You remind me that I've been at this for over 30 years, and coming up in July, I'll be celebrating 40 years of marriage. Like 30 years, 40, where do these numbers come from? 0:00:44.5 AS: Okay. Yeah. Who defines quality in a marriage, Bill? 0:00:47.0 BB: Alright. 0:00:50.8 AS: Okay, we won't go there. Take us, take it away. 0:00:52.2 BB: We won't go there. So we are gonna talk about who defines quality, and to get into "beyond looking good." As I shared with you, I've listened to each of the podcasts a few times. And before we get into who defines quality, I just wanna provide clarification on some of the things that came up in the first five episodes. And so, one, and I think these are kind of in order, but if they're not in order, okay, well, I made reference to black-and-white thinking versus shades-of-gray thinking. And I called black-and-white thinking - black and white data - category data, and the word I was searching for that just wasn't coming out was attribute data. So for those who are keeping score, attribute data is probably the most relevant statistician term in that regard. 0:01:44.9 BB: Attribute data versus variable data. And what I've made reference to, and we'll talk more in a future session, is looking at things in terms of categories. And categories are black and white, or it could be red, yellow, green, that's three categories, or looking at things on a continuum. So I'm still excited by the difference that comes about by understanding when we're in the black-and-white mode or the category mode or the attribute data mode versus the variable mode, and still have a belief that we can't have continuous improvement or continual improvement if we're stuck in an attribute mode. 0:02:22.9 BB: And more on that later, that's one. I talked about Thomas Jefferson meeting Honoré Blanc and getting excited about the concept of interchangeable parts. And I had the date wrong, that was 1785, if anyone's keeping score there. He was ambassador to France from 1785 to 1789, but it was in 1792 that he wrote a letter to John Jay, who was a...I think he was a Commerce Secretary. Anyway, he was in the administration of Washington and shared the idea. I was doing some research earlier and found out that even with the headstart that Blanc had in France, 'cause back in 1785, Jefferson was invited to this pretty high level meeting in Paris where Blanc took a, I guess, like the trigger mechanism of 50 different rifles. Not the entire rifle, but just the...let's just call it the trigger mechanism with springs and whatnot. And he took the 50 apart and he put all the springs in one box, all the other pieces in their respective boxes and then shook the boxes up and showed that he could just randomly pull a given spring, a given part, and put 'em all together. And that got Jefferson excited. And the...what it meant for Jefferson and the French was not just that you can repair rifles in the battlefield quickly. 0:03:56.9 BB: Now, what it meant for jobs in France was a really big deal, because what the French were liking was all the time it took to repair those guns with craftsmanship, and Blanc alienated a whole bunch of gunsmiths as a result of that. And it turns out, Blanc's effort didn't really go anywhere because there was such a pushback from the gunsmiths, the practicing craftsmanship that jobs would be taken away. But it did come to the States. And then in the early 1800s, it became known as the American System of Production. But credit goes back to Blanc. I also made reference to absolute versus relative interchangeability. And I wanna provide a little bit more clarification there, and I just wanna throw out three numbers, and ideally people can write the numbers down, I'll repeat 'em a few times. The first number is 5.001, second number is 5.999, and the third number is 6.001. So it's 5.001, 5.999, 6.001. And some of what I'm gonna explain will come up again later, but...so this will tie in pretty well. So, what I've been doing is I'll write those three words on the whiteboard or throw them on a screen, and I'll call... 0:05:28.9 AS: Those three numbers. 0:05:31.4 BB: A, B, and C. And I'll say, which two of the three are closest to being the same? And sure enough people will say the 5.999 and the 6.001, which is like B and C. And I say that's the most popular answer, but it's not the only answer. People are like, "well, what other answer are there?" Well, it could be A and C, 5.001 and 6.001, both end in 001. Or it could be the first two, A and B, 5.001 and 5.999. So what I like to point out is, if somebody answers 5.999 and 6.001, then when I say to them, "what is your definition of same?" 0:06:14.9 BB: 'Cause the question is, which two of the three are close to being the same? And it turns out there's three explanations of "same." There's same: they begin with five, there's same: they end in 001. And there's same in terms of proximity to each other. So I just wanna throw that out. Well, then a very common definition of "quality" is to say, does something meet requirements? And that's the black-and-white thinking. I've also explained in the past that requirements are not set in absolute terms. The meeting must start at exactly 1:00, or the thickness must be exactly one inch. What I've explained is that the one inch will have a plus or minus on it. And so let's say the plus and minus gives us two requirements, a minimum of five and a maximum of six. Well, then that means the 5.001 meets requirements and the 5.999 meets requirements. 0:07:15.4 BB: And so in terms of defining quality, in terms of meeting requirements, A and B are both good. And then what about the 5.999 and the 6.001? Well, those numbers are on opposite sides of the upper requirement of six. One's just a little bit to the left and one's a little bit to the right. Then I would ask people, and for some of you, this'll ring - I think you'll be smiling - and I would say to people, "what happens in manufacturing if, Andrew, if I come up with a measurement and it's 6.001?" Okay, relative to defining quality as "meeting requirements," 6.001 does not meet requirements. So what I'll ask people is, "what would a non-Deming company do with a 6.001?" And people will say, "we're gonna take a file out, we're gonna work on it, we're gonna hit it with a hammer." And I say, "no, too much work." And they say, "well, what's the answer?" "We're gonna measure it again." 0:08:25.7 AS: Until we get it right. 0:08:27.7 BB: We will measure it until we get it right. We will change the room temperature. We will take the easiest path. So then I said, get people to realize, they're like, yeah, that's what we do. We measure the 6.001 again. Well, then I say, "well Andrew, why don't we measure the 5.001 again?" And what's the answer to that, Andrew? [laughter] 0:08:51.5 AS: 4.999. [laughter] 0:08:54.7 BB: But what's interesting is, we'll measure the 6.001 again. But we won't measure the 5.001 again. We won't measure the 5.999 again. And so to me, this reinforces that when we define quality as "meeting requirements," that what we're essentially saying in terms of absolute interchangeability, what we're pretending is that there's no difference between the 5.001 and the 5.999. At opposite ends, we're saying that Blanc would find them to be interchangeable, and putting all the things together. I don't think so. 0:09:36.7 BB: I think there's a greater chance that he'd find negligible difference between the 5.999 and the 6.001. And that's what I mean by relative interchangeability, that the difference between B and C is nothing, that's relative interchangeability. The closer they are together, the more alike they are in terms of how they're integrated into the gun, into the rifle, into the downstream product. And I just throw out that what defining quality as "requirements" is saying is that the first two are...the person downstream can't tell the difference. Then I challenge, I think there's...in terms of not telling the difference, I think between 5.999 and 6.001, that difference is minuscule cause they are relatively interchangeable. The other two are implied to be absolutely interchangeable. And that I challenge, that's why I just want to throw that out. All right, another thing I want...go ahead, Andrew. 0:10:38.3 AS: One of the things I just highlight is, I remember from my political science classes at Long Beach State where I studied was The Communist Manifesto came out in 1848. And Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were talking about the alienation of the worker. And what you're talking about is the kind of, the crushing of the craftsmen through interchangeable parts that was a lot like AI coming along and destroying something. And after 50 or 60 or 70 years of interchangeable parts, along comes The Communist Manifesto with the idea that when a person is just dealing with interchangeable parts, basically they're just a cog in the wheel and they have no connection to the aim of what's going on. They don't have any connection, and all of a sudden you lose the craftsmanship or the care for work. And I think that the reason why this is interesting is because that's, I think, a huge part of what Dr. Deming was trying to bring was bring back...it may not be craftsmanship for creating a shoe if you were a shoemaker, but it would be craftsmanship for producing the best you could for the part that you're playing in an ultimate aim of the system. 0:12:02.6 BB: Yes. And yes, and we'll talk more about that. That's brilliant. What you said also reminds me, and I don't think you and I spoke about it, you'll remind me. But have I shared with you the work of a Harvard philosopher by the name of Michael Sandel? 0:12:24.3 AS: I don't recall. 0:12:27.0 BB: He may be, yeah, from a distance, one of the most famous Harvard professors alive today. He's got a course on justice, which is I think 15 two- or three-hour lectures, which were recorded by public television in Boston. Anyway, he wrote a book at the beginning of the pandemic. It came out, it's called The Tyranny of Merit. 0:12:54.0 BB: And "merit" is this belief that "I did it all by myself." That "I deserve what I have because I made it happen. I had no help from you, Andrew. I had no help from the government. I didn't need the education system, the transportation system. I didn't need NASA research. I made it happen all by myself." And he said, what that belief does is it allows those who are successful to claim that they did it by themselves. It allows them to say those who didn't have only themselves to blame. And he sees that as a major destructive force in society, that belief. And I see it tied very well to Deming. Let me give you one anecdote. Dr. Deming was interviewed by Priscilla Petty for The Deming of America documentary, which was absolutely brilliant. 0:13:49.8 BB: And she's at his home, and he's sharing with her the medal he got from the Emperor of Japan, and he's holding it carefully, and I think he gives it to her, and she's looking at it, and she says to him something like, so what did it mean to you to receive that? And he said, "I was lucky. I made a contribution." He didn't say I did it all by myself. He was acknowledging that he was in the right place at the right time to make a contribution. And that's where Sandel is also heavily on, is don't deny the role of being born at the right time in the right situation, which is a greater system in which we are. Well, for one of the college courses, I was watching an interview between Sandel and one of his former students. 0:14:48.1 BB: And the point Sandel made that I wanted to bring up based on what you just said, he says, "what we really need to do is get people dignity in work." And that's what you're talking about, is allowing them to have pride in work, dignity in work instead of as they're making interchangeable parts, having them feel like an interchangeable part. And I'm really glad you brought that up because when we talk later about letter grades, I would bring back one of the reasons I find Deming's work astounding, is that he takes into account psychology in a way that I hope our listeners will really take heart to in a deeper way. 0:15:30.2 AS: And so for the listeners out there, just to reinforce, the book is called The Tyranny of Merit: What's Become of the Common Good. Published in 2020 by Michael Sandel. And the ratings on Amazon is 4.5 out of five with about 2,446 ratings. So it's a pretty well-rated book I'd say. And looks interesting. Now you got me wanting to read that one. 0:15:57.0 BB: Oh what I'll do is I'll send you a... Well, what I encourage our listeners to do is find the interview... Harvard Bookstore did an interview in 2020, 2021, with Michael Sandel being interviewed by his former student by the name of Preet Bharara. [laughter] Who used to be the... 0:16:24.3 AS: SEC... 0:16:24.4 BB: Head of these...no, well, he prosecuted a number of people for SEC crimes, but he headed the Justice Department's long oldest district, which is known as SDNY or the Southern District of New York. And so he was a...in one of the first classes his freshman year at Harvard, Preet Bharara's freshman year at Havard was one of Sandel's first years. And so they had an incredible conversation. So I would encourage the listeners to... 0:16:51.8 AS: Yeah, it's titled: Michael J Sandel with Preet Bharara at Harvard. And the channel is called Harvard Bookstore. 0:16:58.6 BB: Yes, absolutely. All right. So another topic I want to get to in terms of clarification and key points, last time we talked about tools and techniques and what I'm not sure I made much about.... First of all, I just wanna really reinforce that tools and techniques are not concepts and strategies. Tools are like a garden tool I use to dig a hole. Technique is how I go about using it, cleaning it, and whatnot. Not to be confused from a concept...and what is concept? We talked about last time is a concept is an abstract idea and a strategy is how do we apply it? So tools and techniques within Six Sigma quality could be control charts, could be design of experiments. And all, by the way, you're gonna find those tools and techniques within the Deming community. So it's not to say the tools and techniques are the differentiator. 0:17:50.8 BB: I think the concepts and strategies are the differentiators, but I don't wanna downplay tools. Lean has tools in terms of value streams, and you won't find value streams per se in Dr. Deming's work. Dr. Deming looks in terms of production viewed as a system. In a later session, I want to talk about value streams versus Deming's work. But I just wanna point out that I find it...it's easy to get lost in the weeds with all we find within Lean, Six Sigma, Deming and whatnot. And this is why last time I wanted to focus on tools and techniques as separate from concepts and strategies. And what I think we did speak about last time, again, for just as a reminder, is what's unique that we both enjoy with Dr. Deming's work is that KPIs are not caused by individual departments, assigned to individual departments. 0:18:46.0 BB: KPIs are viewed as measures of the overall system. And if you assign the KPIs across the organization and give every different function their own KPI, what you're likely to find - not likely - what you WILL find is that those assigned KPIs are interfering with others' abilities to get their KPIs met. And in the Deming philosophy, you don't have that problem because you understand that things are interdependent, not independent. And so I just wanna close by saying what I find in Deming's work to be most enlightening is this sense of "what does it mean to look at something as a system?" And it means everything is connected to everything else. When you define quality in terms of saying "this is good because it meets requirements," what you've just said is, "this is good in isolation." Whether it's the pass from the quarterback to the wide receiver, saying the pass met requirements. 0:19:52.0 BB: What I think Dr. Deming would ask is, "is the ball catchable?" [laughter] And yet, what I've seen in my aerospace experience is parts being measured for airplanes in Australia that they meet requirements because the measurements are taken early in the morning before the sun has had a chance to heat the part up. And we get the 6.001 is now 5.999. You know what that means, Andrew? It's - we can now ship it. [laughter] 0:20:23.9 BB: And send it off to America for some airplane factory. 0:20:26.2 AS: When we shipped it, that's what it was. 0:20:28.9 BB: Exactly. And so, again, interdependence is everything. Go ahead, Andrew. 0:20:34.6 AS: I wanted to point on, there's a company in Thailand that really has gotten on the KPI bandwagon, and I was talking with some people that work there, and they were just talking about how they've been rolling out the KPIs for the last couple of years and down to the number of seconds that you're on the phone and everything that you do is tracked now. And then I just witnessed that company basically use that KPI as a way to basically knock out a whole group of people that they were trying to get rid of by coming in with tight KPIs and then saying, "you're not keeping up with 'em and therefore you're out." And I just thought...and the manager that was involved I was talking to, you could just see, he saw how KPI can just be weaponized for the purposes of the senior management when you're doing KPIs of individuals. And the thing that I was thinking about is, imagine the CEO of that company in a couple of years, in a couple of months, they happen to listen to this podcast, or they pick up a book of Dr. Deming and they think, "Oh my God, what did I just do over the last five years implementing KPIs down to the individual level?" [laughter] 0:21:48.5 BB: Oh, yeah. And that's what we talked about last time is...as I told you, I had a friend of a friend who's worked for Xerox, and he said there wasn't a KPI that was flowed down that they couldn't find a way to beat. And that's what happens, and you end up getting things done, but what's missing is: at whose expense? All right. So we talked about...now, let's get into beyond looking good, Deming distinctions. Who defines quality? Well, from Philip Crosby's perspective, quality's defined by the...it could be the designer. The designer puts a set of requirements on the component, whatever it is. The unit, the requirements have latitude we talked about. They're not exact. There's a minimum of six, a maximum of...or a minimum of five, maximum of six. 0:22:48.8 BB: There's a range you have to meet, is the traditional view of quality. And in my 30 years of experience, I've not seen quality defined any other way than that. It has to be in between these two values. Sometimes it has to be five or below or six or above, but there's a range. But also what we talked about last time is Dr. Deming said "a product or service possesses quality if it helps someone and enjoys a sustainable market." But what I found profound about that definition, it is not me defining quality and saying, "Andrew, the parts met requirements when I threw it. Now, it's your job to catch it." It's me saying, "I've thrown the ball and you tell me, how did I do? You tell me how did I do?" And if you said, "Bill, if you throw it just a little bit higher, a little bit further out, a little bit faster," that's about synchronicity. Now, I'm realizing that my ability to throw the ball doesn't really matter if you can't catch it. So if I practice in the off season, throwing it faster and faster, but don't clue you in, until the first game, how's that helping? So I've got a KPI to throw it really, really hard. And you're thinking, "how's that helping?" So that's... 0:24:19.9 AS: And can you just go back to that for a second? Quality is on a product or service, you were saying that how Dr. Deming defined that, it helps someone... 0:24:26.7 BB: Yeah. Dr. Deming said "a product or service possesses quality if it helps someone and enjoys a sustainable market." And so my interpretation of that is two things. One is, it's not me delivering a report and saying the report met requirements. It's saying, "I get the report to you, and I ask Andrew, how did I do?" And then you say to me, "I had some problem with this section, I had some problem...." But the important thing is that you become the judge of the quality of the report, not me. And it could be information I provide you with in a lecture. It's you letting me know as a student that you had a hard time with the examples. And I'm thinking, "well, I did a great job." So it's not what I think as the producer handing off to you. It's you giving me the feedback. So quality is not a one-way...in fact, first of all, quality's not defined by the producer. It's defined by the recipients saying, "I love this or not." And so that's one thing I wanna say, and does it enjoy a sustainable market? What I talked about in the past is my interpretation of that is, if I'm bending over backwards to provide incredible quality at an incredible price, and I'm going outta business, then it may be great for you, but it may not be great for me. So it has to be mutually beneficial. I just wanna... Go ahead, Andrew. 0:26:03.1 AS: You referenced the word synchronicity, which the meaning of that according to the dictionary is that "simultaneous occurrence of events which appear significantly related, but had no discernible causal connection." What were you meaning when you were saying synchronicity? Is it this that now you're communicating with the part of the process ahead of you, and they're communicating back to you and all of a sudden you're starting to really work together? Is that what you mean by that? 0:26:33.1 BB: Yeah. When I think of synchronicity, I'm thinking of the fluidity of watching a basketball game where I'm throwing blind passes to the left and to the right and to the observer in the stands are thinking: holy cow. That's what I'm talking about, is the ability that we're sharing information just like those passes in a basketball game where you're...I mean I cannot do that without being incredibly mindful of where you are, what information you need. That's what I meant. That's what I mean. As opposed to - I wait until the number is less than...I'm out there in the hot sun. I get the measurement, 6.001, no, no, no, wait. Now it's five. Where's the synchronicity in that? Am I concerned about how this is helping you, or am I concerned about how do I get this off my plate onto the next person? And I'd also say... 0:27:32.6 AS: Yep. And another word I was thinking about is coordination, the organization of the different elements of a complex body or activity so as to enable them to work together efficiently. You could also say that the state of flow or something like that? 0:27:48.7 BB: I'm glad you brought up the word "together." The big deal is: am I defining quality in a vacuum, or am I doing it with some sense of how this is being used? Which is also something we got into, I think in the, one of the very first podcasts, and you asked me what could our audience...give me an example of how the audience could use this. And I said you're delivering a report to the person down the street, around the corner. Go find out how they use it. I use the example of providing data for my consulting company to my CPA, and I called 'em up one day and I said, "how do you use this information? Maybe I can get it to you in an easier form." That's together. I mean relationships, we talked earlier about marriage, relationships are based on the concept of together, not separate, together. Saying something is good, without understanding how it's used is not about "together." It's about "separate." 0:28:54.1 BB: And so what I find is, in Lean, we look at: how can we get rid of the non-value-added tasks? Who defines value? Or I could say, and Lean folks will talk about the...they'll say this: "eliminate things that don't add value." My response to them is, if you tell me that this activity does not provide value in this room for the next hour, I'm okay with that. If you tell me this activity doesn't add value in this building for the next year, I'm okay with that. But if you don't define the size of the system when you tell me it doesn't add value, then you're implying that it doesn't add value, period. 0:29:43.4 BB: And I say, how do you know that? But this is the thinking, this is what baffles me on the thinking behind Lean and these concepts of non-value-added, value-added activities. I think all activities add value. The only question is where does a value show up? And likewise in Six Sigma quality, which is heavily based on conformist requirements and driving defects to zero, that's defining quality of the parts in isolation. What does that mean, Andrew? Separate. It means separate. Nothing about synchronicity. And so I'm glad you brought that point up because what I...this idea of "together" is throughout the Deming philosophy, a sense of together, defining quality in terms of a relationship. 0:30:31.1 AS: And I remember when I was young, I was working at Pepsi, and they sent me to learn with Dr. Deming. And then I came back, and what I was kind of looking for was tools, thinking that I would...and I came back of course, with something very different, with a new way of thinking. And then I realized that Dr. Deming is so far beyond tools. He's trying to think about how do we optimize this whole system? And once I started learning that about Dr. Deming, I could see the difference. Whereas, you may decide - let's say that you wanna learn about Lean and get a certification in Lean or something like that. 0:31:15.5 AS: Ultimately, you may go down a rabbit hole of a particular tool and become a master in that tool. Nothing wrong with that. But the point is, what is the objective? Who defines the quality? And Dr. Deming clearly stated in the seminars that I was in, and from readings that I've read, that the objective of quality isn't just to improve something in...you could improve something, the quality of something and go out of business. And so there's the bigger objective of it is: how does this serve the needs of our clients? So anyways, that's just some of my memories of those days. 0:31:52.4 BB: Yeah. But you're absolutely right. And the point I'm hoping to bring out in our sessions is: I'm not against tools and techniques. Tools and techniques are incredible. They're time savers, money savers, but let's use them with a sense of connections and relationships. And I agree with you, I've done plenty of seminars where people are coming in - they're all about tools and techniques. Tools and techniques is part of the reason I like to differentiate is to say....and again, I think people are hungrier for tools and techniques. Why? Because I don't think they've come to grips with what concepts and strategies are about. And I'm hoping our listeners can help us...can appreciate that they go together. Tools and techniques are about efficiency, doing things faster, doing things cheaper. Concepts and strategies are about doing the right thing. Ackoff would say "doing the right thing right." And short of that, we end up using tools to make things worse. And that's what I'm hoping people can avoid through the insights we can share from Dr. Deming. 0:33:05.4 AS: And I would say that, would it be the case that applying tools, and tools and techniques is kind of easy? You learn how they work, you practice with them, you measure, you give feedback, but actually going to figure out how we optimize this overall system is just so much harder. It's a complex situation, and I can imagine that there's some people that would retreat to tools and techniques and I saw it in the factory at Pepsi when people would basically just say, "well, I'm just doing my thing." That's it, 'cause it's too much trouble to go out and try to negotiate all of this with everybody. 0:33:50.7 BB: I think in part, I think as long as they're managing parts in isolation, which is the prevailing system of management, then, I agree with you. Becoming aware of interdependencies in the greater system, and I'll also point out is whatever system you're looking at is part of a bigger system, and then again, bigger system, then again, bigger system. What you define is the whole, is part of a bigger system. No matter how you define it, it's part of a bigger system because time goes to infinity. So your 10-year plan, well, why not a 20-year plan? Why not a 30-year plan? So no matter how big a system you look at, there is a bigger system. So let's not get overwhelmed. Let's take a system, which Ackoff would say, take a system which is not too big that you can't manage it, not too small, that you're not really giving it the good effort, but don't lose sight of whatever system you're looking at - you'll begin to realize it is actually bigger than that. Again, what Dr. Deming would say, the bigger the system, the more complicated, which is where you're coming from, but it also offers more opportunities. I think we're so used to tools and techniques. 0:35:14.3 BB: I don't think people have really given thought to the concepts and strategies of Deming's work as opposed to Lean and Six Sigma as being different, which is why I wanted to bring it up with our listeners, because I don't think people are defaulting on the tools. I just don't think they appreciate that concepts and strategies are different than tools and techniques. And I like to have them become aware of that difference and then understand where black-and-white thinking works, where continuum thinking has advantages. There's times to look at things as connected, and then there's times to just move on and make a decision, which is a lot easier because the implications aren't as important. But at least now we get back to choice, be conscious of the choice you're making, and then move on. All right, so also on the list we had, who defines quality? 0:36:09.0 BB: We talked about that. What is meant by good: the requirements are met. Who defines good? Again, if you're looking at Phil Crosby, who defines good? Someone has to set, here are the requirements for being "good." I could be giving a term paper and me saying to the students, this is what "good" means. Next thing I wanted to look at is, "why stop at good?" And, I'm pretty sure we've talked about this. A question I like to ask people is how much time they spend every day in meetings, discussing parts, components, things that are good and going well. And what I find is people don't spend a whole lot of time discussing things that are good and going well. So why do they stop? Why not? Because they're stopping at "good." 0:36:57.1 BB: And that goes back to the black-and-white thinking. They're saying things are "bad" or they're "good." We focus on the bad to make it good, and then we stop at good. Why do we stop at good? Because there's no sense of "better." All right. And what does that mean? So again, we have why stop at good? Why go beyond good? And this is...'cause I think we're talking about really smart people that stop at "good." And I think to better understand what that means, what I like to do is ask people, what's the letter grade required for a company to ship their products to the customer? What letter grade does NASA expect from all their suppliers? And I asked a very senior NASA executive this question years ago. He was the highest ranking NASA executive in the quality field. 0:37:50.5 BB: And I said, "what letter grade do you expect from your contractors?" And he said, A+. A+. And I said, actually, it's not A+. And he is like, "What do you mean?" I said, "actually the letter grade, your requirement is actually D-." And he pushed back at me and I said, what...he says, "well, what do you mean?" I said, "how do you define quality?" And he said, "We define quality as requirements are met. That's what we require." I said, "so you think A+ is the only thing that meets requirements?" He's like, "well, where are you coming from?" I said a pass-fail system, now we get back to category thinking, if it's good or bad, what is good? Good is passing. What is passing? What I explained to him: passing is anything from an A+ down to a D-. 0:38:38.9 BB: And he got a little antsy with me. I said, "well, the alternative is an F, you don't want an F, right?" I said, "well, what you're saying is that you'll take anything but an F and that means your requirements are actually D-." And then when I pushed back and I said, "is a D- the same as an A+?" And he said, "no." I said, "well, that's what I meant earlier" in the conversation with him. And I told him that they weren't interchangeable. So when you begin to realize that black and white quality, Phil Crosby-quality, allows for D minuses to be shipped to customers. Again, in this one way I define quality, I hand it off to you. 'Cause in that world, Andrew, I make the measurement, it's 5.999, it meets requirements, I ship it to you, your only response when you receive it is to say, "thank you." [laughter] 0:39:33.2 BB: For a D minus, right? Well, when you begin to understand relationship quality, then you begin to understand that to improve the relationship, what's behind improving the relationship, Andrew, is shifting from the D- to the A. And what does that mean? What that means is, when I pay attention to your ability to receive what I give you, whether it's the pass or the information, the more synchronously I can provide that, the letter grade is going up, [laughter] and it continues to go up. Now, again, what I'm hoping is that the effort I'm taking to provide you with the A is worthwhile. But that's how you can have continuous improvement, is stop...not stopping at the D minus. 0:40:17.6 BB: Again, there may be situations where D minus is all you really need, but I, that's not me delivering to you a D minus blindly. That's you saying to me, "Hey, I don't need an A+ over here. All I really need is a D minus." That's teamwork, Andrew. So on the one hand, and what I think is, our listeners may not appreciate it, is who defines the letter grade? So in your organization, I would say to people, you give everyone a set of requirements to go meet, what letter grade does each of them has to meet to hand off to a coworker, to another coworker, to a customer? Every single one of those people, all they have to do if they're feeling disenfranchised, as you mentioned earlier, they're feeling like an interchangeable part, well, under those circumstances, Andrew, I don't have to call you up, I just deliver a D minus. And you can't complain because I've met the requirements. 0:41:14.2 BB: So what I think it could be a little scary is to realize, what if everybody in the company comes to work tomorrow feeling no dignity in work and decides to hand off the minimum on every requirement, how does that help? And what I find exciting by Deming's work is that Dr. Deming understood that how people are treated affects their willingness to look up, pay attention to the person they're receiving and deliver to them the appropriate letter grade. So I'm hoping that helps our audience understand that if it's a black and white system, then we're saying that it's good or it's bad. What that misses is, keyword Andrew, variation in good. So the opportunities to improve when we realize that there's a range, that "good" has variation. Another point I wanna make is, what allows the Deming philosophy to go beyond looking good? 0:42:16.2 BB: Well, if you look at the last chapter 10, I think, yeah, chapter 10 of the New Economics is...like the last six pages of the New Economics is all about Dr. Taguchi's work, and it's what Dr. Deming learned from Dr. Taguchi about this very thought of looking at quality in terms of relationships, not just in isolation, Phil Crosby-style meeting requirements. And the last thing I wanna throw out is I was listening to a interview with Russ Ackoff earlier today, and he gave the three steps to being creative. This is a lecture he gave at Rocketdyne years ago. And he said, the first thing is you have to discover self-limiting constraints. Second, you have to remove the constraint. And third, you have to exploit that removal. And what I want to close on is what Deming is talking about is the self-limiting constraint is when we stop at good. [laughter] 0:43:20.7 BB: And I'm hoping that this episode provides more insights as to the self-imposed constraint within our organizations to stop at "good." What happens when we go beyond that? And how do you go beyond that? By looking at how others receive your work and then expand that others and expand that others and expand that others. And then what I find exciting is, and the work I do with students and with clients is, how can we exploit every day that idea of synchronicity of quality, and not looking at quality from a category perspective? Again, unless that's all that's needed in that situation. So I don't want to throw out category thinking, use category thinking where it makes sense, use continuum thinking where it makes sense. So that's what I wanted to close with. 0:44:12.1 AS: Bill, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion. For listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'm gonna leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, and it's very appropriate for the discussion that we've had today. "People are entitled to joy in work."  

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Tonight at 8:30 pm CST, on the Flyover Conservatives show we are tackling the most important things going on RIGHT NOW from a Conservative Christian perspective! TO WATCH ALL FLYOVER CONSERVATIVES SHOWS -https://banned.video/playlist/61e636f26959067dbbfa11bfTO WATCH ALL FLYOVER CONTENT: theflyoverapp.comTo Schedule A Time To Talk To Dr. Dr. Kirk Elliott Go To ▶ https://flyovergold.com Or Call 720-605-3900 BOOK: Thriving in the Economic Tsunami by Dr. Kirk Elliotthttps://www.amazon.com/Thriving-Economic-Tsunami-Kirk-Elliott/dp/B0BR8K2R5YArticle: https://www.christianpost.com/voices/the-aps-institutionalized-betrayal-of-journalism-and-the-truth.html Brandon ShowalterWEBSITE: Christianpost.com/by/brandon-showalter TWITTER: @BrandonMShow BOOK: summit.org/protectSPONSORS FOR TODAY'S VIDEO► ReAwaken America- text the word EVENTS to 40509(Message and data rates may apply. Terms/privacy: 40509-info.com)► Kirk Elliott PHD - http://FlyoverGold.com ► My Pillow - https://MyPillow.com/Flyover► Z-Stack - https://flyoverhealth.com ► Dr. Jason Dean (BraveTV) - https://parakiller.com Want to help spread the Wake Up • Speak Up • Show Up -https://shop.flyoverconservatives.com/-------------------------------------------Follow our Social Media so we can be best friends

If something is "good" is that good enough? Who decides? In this episode, Bill and Andrew discuss how people define "good," what interchangeability has to do with morale, and the problem with a "merit-based" culture. Bonus: Bill gives us a short history lesson on how Americans became the first to manufacture using interchangeable parts even though the originator was a Frenchman. 0:00:02.3 Andrew Stotz: My name is Andrew Stotz, and I'll be your host as we continue our journey into the teachings of Dr. W. Edwards Deming. Today, I'm continuing my discussion with Bill Bellows, who has spent 30 years helping people apply Dr. Deming's ideas to become aware of how their thinking is holding them back from their biggest opportunities. The topic for today is, Deming Distinctions: Beyond Looking Good. Bill, take it away.   0:00:30.4 Bill Bellows: Funny you mentioned that. You remind me that I've been at this for over 30 years, and coming up in July, I'll be celebrating 40 years of marriage. Like 30 years, 40, where do these numbers come from?   0:00:44.5 AS: Okay. Yeah. Who defines quality in a marriage, Bill?   0:00:47.0 BB: Alright.   0:00:50.8 AS: Okay, we won't go there. Take us, take it away.   0:00:52.2 BB: We won't go there. So we are gonna talk about who defines quality, and to get into "beyond looking good." As I shared with you, I've listened to each of the podcasts a few times. And before we get into who defines quality, I just wanna provide clarification on some of the things that came up in the first five episodes. And so, one, and I think these are kind of in order, but if they're not in order, okay, well, I made reference to black-and-white thinking versus shades-of-gray thinking. And I called black-and-white thinking - black and white data - category data, and the word I was searching for that just wasn't coming out was attribute data. So for those who are keeping score, attribute data is probably the most relevant statistician term in that regard.   0:01:44.9 BB: Attribute data versus variable data. And what I've made reference to, and we'll talk more in a future session, is looking at things in terms of categories. And categories are black and white, or it could be red, yellow, green, that's three categories, or looking at things on a continuum. So I'm still excited by the difference that comes about by understanding when we're in the black-and-white mode or the category mode or the attribute data mode versus the variable mode, and still have a belief that we can't have continuous improvement or continual improvement if we're stuck in an attribute mode.   0:02:22.9 BB: And more on that later, that's one. I talked about Thomas Jefferson meeting Honoré Blanc and getting excited about the concept of interchangeable parts. And I had the date wrong, that was 1785, if anyone's keeping score there. He was ambassador to France from 1785 to 1789, but it was in 1792 that he wrote a letter to John Jay, who was a...I think he was a Commerce Secretary. Anyway, he was in the administration of Washington and shared the idea. I was doing some research earlier and found out that even with the headstart that Blanc had in France, 'cause back in 1785, Jefferson was invited to this pretty high level meeting in Paris where Blanc took a, I guess, like the trigger mechanism of 50 different rifles. Not the entire rifle, but just the...let's just call it the trigger mechanism with springs and whatnot. And he took the 50 apart and he put all the springs in one box, all the other pieces in their respective boxes and then shook the boxes up and showed that he could just randomly pull a given spring, a given part, and put 'em all together. And that got Jefferson excited. And the...what it meant for Jefferson and the French was not just that you can repair rifles in the battlefield quickly.   0:03:56.9 BB: Now, what it meant for jobs in France was a really big deal, because what the French were liking was all the time it took to repair those guns with craftsmanship, and Blanc alienated a whole bunch of gunsmiths as a result of that. And it turns out, Blanc's effort didn't really go anywhere because there was such a pushback from the gunsmiths, the practicing craftsmanship that jobs would be taken away. But it did come to the States. And then in the early 1800s, it became known as the American System of Production. But credit goes back to Blanc. I also made reference to absolute versus relative interchangeability. And I wanna provide a little bit more clarification there, and I just wanna throw out three numbers, and ideally people can write the numbers down, I'll repeat 'em a few times. The first number is 5.001, second number is 5.999, and the third number is 6.001. So it's 5.001, 5.999, 6.001. And some of what I'm gonna explain will come up again later, but...so this will tie in pretty well. So, what I've been doing is I'll write those three words on the whiteboard or throw them on a screen, and I'll call...   0:05:28.9 AS: Those three numbers.   0:05:31.4 BB: A, B, and C. And I'll say, which two of the three are closest to being the same? And sure enough people will say the 5.999 and the 6.001, which is like B and C. And I say that's the most popular answer, but it's not the only answer. People are like, "well, what other answer are there?" Well, it could be A and C, 5.001 and 6.001, both end in 001. Or it could be the first two, A and B, 5.001 and 5.999. So what I like to point out is, if somebody answers 5.999 and 6.001, then when I say to them, "what is your definition of same?"   0:06:14.9 BB: 'Cause the question is, which two of the three are close to being the same? And it turns out there's three explanations of "same." There's same: they begin with five, there's same: they end in 001. And there's same in terms of proximity to each other. So I just wanna throw that out. Well, then a very common definition of "quality" is to say, does something meet requirements? And that's the black-and-white thinking. I've also explained in the past that requirements are not set in absolute terms. The meeting must start at exactly 1:00, or the thickness must be exactly one inch. What I've explained is that the one inch will have a plus or minus on it. And so let's say the plus and minus gives us two requirements, a minimum of five and a maximum of six. Well, then that means the 5.001 meets requirements and the 5.999 meets requirements.   0:07:15.4 BB: And so in terms of defining quality, in terms of meeting requirements, A and B are both good. And then what about the 5.999 and the 6.001? Well, those numbers are on opposite sides of the upper requirement of six. One's just a little bit to the left and one's a little bit to the right. Then I would ask people, and for some of you, this'll ring - I think you'll be smiling - and I would say to people, "What happens in manufacturing if, Andrew, if I come up with a measurement and it's 6.001?" Okay, relative to defining quality as "meeting requirements," 6.001 does not meet requirements. So what I'll ask people is, "what would a non-Deming company do with a 6.001?" And people will say, "We're gonna take a file out, we're gonna work on it, we're gonna hit it with a hammer." And I say, "No, too much work." And they say, "Well, what's the answer?" "We're gonna measure it again."   0:08:25.7 AS: Until we get it right.   0:08:27.7 BB: We will measure it until we get it right. We will change the room temperature. We will take the easiest path. So then I said, get people to realize, they're like, yeah, that's what we do. We measure the 6.001 again. Well, then I say, "Well Andrew, why don't we measure the 5.001 again?" And what's the answer to that, Andrew? [laughter]   0:08:51.5 AS: 4.999. [laughter]   0:08:54.7 BB: But what's interesting is, we'll measure the 6.001 again. But we won't measure the 5.001 again. We won't measure the 5.999 again. And so to me, this reinforces that when we define quality as "meeting requirements," that what we're essentially saying in terms of absolute interchangeability, what we're pretending is that there's no difference between the 5.001 and the 5.999. At opposite ends, we're saying that Blanc would find them to be interchangeable, and putting all the things together. I don't think so.   0:09:36.7 BB: I think there's a greater chance that he'd find negligible difference between the 5.999 and the 6.001. And that's what I mean by relative interchangeability, that the difference between B and C is nothing, that's relative interchangeability. The closer they are together, the more alike they are in terms of how they're integrated into the gun, into the rifle, into the downstream product. And I just throw out that what defining quality as "requirements" is saying is that the first two are...the person downstream can't tell the difference. Then I challenge, I think there's...in terms of not telling the difference, I think between 5.999 and 6.001, that difference is minuscule cause they are relatively interchangeable. The other two are implied to be absolutely interchangeable. And that I challenge, that's why I just want to throw that out. All right, another thing I want...go ahead, Andrew.   0:10:38.3 AS: One of the things I just highlight is, I remember from my political science classes at Long Beach State where I studied was The Communist Manifesto came out in 1848. And Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels were talking about the alienation of the worker. And what you're talking about is the kind of, the crushing of the craftsmen through interchangeable parts that was a lot like AI coming along and destroying something. And after 50 or 60 or 70 years of interchangeable parts, along comes The Communist Manifesto with the idea that when a person is just dealing with interchangeable parts, basically they're just a cog in the wheel and they have no connection to the aim of what's going on. They don't have any connection, and all of a sudden you lose the craftsmanship or the care for work. And I think that the reason why this is interesting is because that's, I think, a huge part of what Dr. Deming was trying to bring was bring back...it may not be craftsmanship for creating a shoe if you were a shoemaker, but it would be craftsmanship for producing the best you could for the part that you're playing in an ultimate aim of the system.   0:12:02.6 BB: Yes. And yes, and we'll talk more about that. That's brilliant. What you said also reminds me, and I don't think you and I spoke about it, you'll remind me. But have I shared with you the work of a Harvard philosopher by the name of Michael Sandel?   0:12:24.3 AS: I don't recall.   0:12:27.0 BB: He may be, yeah, from a distance, one of the most famous Harvard professors alive today. He's got a course on justice, which is I think 15 two- or three-hour lectures, which were recorded by public television in Boston. Anyway, he wrote a book at the beginning of the pandemic. It came out, it's called The Tyranny of Merit.   0:12:54.0 BB: And "merit" is this belief that "I did it all by myself." That "I deserve what I have because I made it happen. I had no help from you, Andrew. I had no help from the government. I didn't need the education system, the transportation system. I didn't need NASA research. I made it happen all by myself." And he said, what that belief does is it allows those who are successful to claim that they did it by themselves. It allows them to say those who didn't have only themselves to blame. And he sees that as a major destructive force in society, that belief. And I see it tied very well to Deming. Let me give you one anecdote. Dr. Deming was interviewed by Priscilla Petty for The Deming of America documentary, which was absolutely brilliant.   0:13:49.8 BB: And she's at his home, and he's sharing with her the medal he got from the Emperor of Japan, and he's holding it carefully, and I think he gives it to her, and she's looking at it, and she says to him something like, so what did it mean to you to receive that? And he said, "I was lucky. I made a contribution." He didn't say I did it all by myself. He was acknowledging that he was in the right place at the right time to make a contribution. And that's where Sandel is also heavily on, is don't deny the role of being born at the right time in the right situation, which is a greater system in which we are. Well, for one of the college courses, I was watching an interview between Sandel and one of his former students.   0:14:48.1 BB: And the point Sandel made that I wanted to bring up based on what you just said, he says, "what we really need to do is get people dignity in work." And that's what you're talking about, is allowing them to have pride in work, dignity in work instead of as they're making interchangeable parts, having them feel like an interchangeable part. And I'm really glad you brought that up because when we talk later about letter grades, I would bring back one of the reasons I find Deming's work astounding, is that he takes into account psychology in a way that I hope our listeners will really take heart to in a deeper way.   0:15:30.2 AS: And so for the listeners out there, just to reinforce, the book is called The Tyranny of Merit: What's Become of the Common Good. Published in 2020 by Michael Sandel. And the ratings on Amazon is 4.5 out of five with about 2,446 ratings. So it's a pretty well-rated book I'd say. And looks interesting. Now you got me wanting to read that one.   0:15:57.0 BB: Oh what I'll do is I'll send you a... Well, what I encourage our listeners to do is find the interview... Harvard Bookstore did an interview in 2020, 2021, with Michael Sandel being interviewed by his former student by the name of Preet Bharara. [laughter] Who used to be the...   0:16:24.3 AS: SEC...   0:16:24.4 BB: Head of these...no, well, he prosecuted a number of people for SEC crimes, but he headed the Justice Department's long oldest district, which is known as SDNY or the Southern District of New York. And so he was a...in one of the first classes his freshman year at Harvard, Preet Bharara's freshman year at Havard was one of Sandel's first years. And so they had an incredible conversation. So I would encourage the listeners to...   0:16:51.8 AS: Yeah, it's titled: Michael J Sandel with Preet Bharara at Harvard. And the channel is called Harvard Bookstore.   0:16:58.6 BB: Yes, absolutely. All right. So another topic I want to get to in terms of clarification and key points, last time we talked about tools and techniques and what I'm not sure I made much about.... First of all, I just wanna really reinforce that tools and techniques are not concepts and strategies. Tools are like a garden tool I use to dig a hole. Technique is how I go about using it, cleaning it, and whatnot. Not to be confused from a concept...and what is concept? We talked about last time is a concept is an abstract idea and a strategy is how do we apply it? So tools and techniques within Six Sigma quality could be control charts, could be design of experiments. And all, by the way, you're gonna find those tools and techniques within the Deming community. So it's not to say the tools and techniques are the differentiator.   0:17:50.8 BB: I think the concepts and strategies are the differentiators, but I don't wanna downplay tools. Lean has tools in terms of value streams, and you won't find value streams per se in Dr. Deming's work. Dr. Deming looks in terms of production viewed as a system. In a later session, I want to talk about value streams versus Deming's work. But I just wanna point out that I find it...it's easy to get lost in the weeds with all we find within Lean, Six Sigma, Deming and whatnot. And this is why last time I wanted to focus on tools and techniques as separate from concepts and strategies. And what I think we did speak about last time, again, for just as a reminder, is what's unique that we both enjoy with Dr. Deming's work is that KPIs are not caused by individual departments, assigned to individual departments.   0:18:46.0 BB: KPIs are viewed as measures of the overall system. And if you assign the KPIs across the organization and give every different function their own KPI, what you're likely to find - not likely - what you WILL find is that those assigned KPIs are interfering with others' abilities to get their KPIs met. And in the Deming philosophy, you don't have that problem because you understand that things are interdependent, not independent. And so I just wanna close by saying what I find in Deming's work to be most enlightening is this sense of "what does it mean to look at something as a system?" And it means everything is connected to everything else. When you define quality in terms of saying "this is good because it meets requirements," what you've just said is, "this is good in isolation." Whether it's the pass from the quarterback to the wide receiver, saying the pass met requirements.   0:19:52.0 BB: What I think Dr. Deming would ask is, "is the ball catchable?" [laughter] And yet, what I've seen in my aerospace experience is parts being measured for airplanes in Australia that they meet requirements because the measurements are taken early in the morning before the sun has had a chance to heat the part up. And we get the 6.001 is now 5.999. You know what that means, Andrew? It's - we can now ship it.   [laughter]   0:20:23.9 BB: And send it off to America for some airplane factory.   0:20:26.2 AS: When we shipped it, that's what it was.   0:20:28.9 BB: Exactly. And so, again, interdependence is everything. Go ahead, Andrew.   0:20:34.6 AS: I wanted to point on, there's a company in Thailand that really has gotten on the KPI bandwagon, and I was talking with some people that work there, and they were just talking about how they've been rolling out the KPIs for the last couple of years and down to the number of seconds that you're on the phone and everything that you do is tracked now. And then I just witnessed that company basically use that KPI as a way to basically knock out a whole group of people that they were trying to get rid of by coming in with tight KPIs and then saying, "you're not keeping up with 'em and therefore you're out." And I just thought...and the manager that was involved I was talking to, you could just see, he saw how KPI can just be weaponized for the purposes of the senior management when you're doing KPIs of individuals. And the thing that I was thinking about is, imagine the CEO of that company in a couple of years, in a couple of months, they happen to listen to this podcast, or they pick up a book of Dr. Deming and they think, "Oh my God, what did I just do over the last five years implementing KPIs down to the individual level?" [laughter]   0:21:48.5 BB: Oh, yeah. And that's what we talked about last time is...as I told you, I had a friend of a friend who's worked for Xerox, and he said there wasn't a KPI that was flowed down that they couldn't find a way to beat. And that's what happens, and you end up getting things done, but what's missing is: at whose expense? All right. So we talked about...now, let's get into beyond looking good, Deming distinctions. Who defines quality? Well, from Philip Crosby's perspective, quality's defined by the...it could be the designer. The designer puts a set of requirements on the component, whatever it is. The unit, the requirements have latitude we talked about. They're not exact. There's a minimum of six, a maximum of...or a minimum of five, maximum of six.   0:22:48.8 BB: There's a range you have to meet, is the traditional view of quality. And in my 30 years of experience, I've not seen quality defined any other way than that. It has to be in between these two values. Sometimes it has to be five or below or six or above, but there's a range. But also what we talked about last time is Dr. Deming said "a product or service possesses quality if it helps someone and enjoys a sustainable market." But what I found profound about that definition, it is not me defining quality and saying, "Andrew, the parts met requirements when I threw it. Now, it's your job to catch it." It's me saying, "I've thrown the ball and you tell me, how did I do? You tell me how did I do?" And if you said, "Bill, if you throw it just a little bit higher, a little bit further out, a little bit faster," that's about synchronicity. Now, I'm realizing that my ability to throw the ball doesn't really matter if you can't catch it. So if I practice in the off season, throwing it faster and faster, but don't clue you in, until the first game, how's that helping? So I've got a KPI to throw it really, really hard. And you're thinking, "how's that helping?" So that's...   0:24:19.9 AS: And can you just go back to that for a second? Quality is on a product or service, you were saying that how Dr. Deming defined that, it helps someone...   0:24:26.7 BB: Yeah. Dr. Deming said "a product or service possesses quality if it helps someone and enjoys a sustainable market." And so my interpretation of that is two things. One is, it's not me delivering a report and saying the report met requirements. It's saying, "I get the report to you, and I ask Andrew, how did I do?" And then you say to me, "I had some problem with this section, I had some problem...." But the important thing is that you become the judge of the quality of the report, not me. And it could be information I provide you with in a lecture. It's you letting me know as a student that you had a hard time with the examples. And I'm thinking, "well, I did a great job." So it's not what I think as the producer handing off to you. It's you giving me the feedback. So quality is not a one-way...in fact, first of all, quality's not defined by the producer. It's defined by the recipients saying, "I love this or not." And so that's one thing I wanna say, and does it enjoy a sustainable market? What I talked about in the past is my interpretation of that is, if I'm bending over backwards to provide incredible quality at an incredible price, and I'm going outta business, then it may be great for you, but it may not be great for me. So it has to be mutually beneficial. I just wanna... Go ahead, Andrew.   0:26:03.1 AS: You referenced the word synchronicity, which the meaning of that according to the dictionary is that "simultaneous occurrence of events which appear significantly related, but had no discernible causal connection." What were you meaning when you were saying synchronicity? Is it this that now you're communicating with the part of the process ahead of you, and they're communicating back to you and all of a sudden you're starting to really work together? Is that what you mean by that?   0:26:33.1 BB: Yeah. When I think of synchronicity, I'm thinking of the fluidity of watching a basketball game where I'm throwing blind passes to the left and to the right and to the observer in the stands are thinking: holy cow. That's what I'm talking about, is the ability that we're sharing information just like those passes in a basketball game where you're...I mean I cannot do that without being incredibly mindful of where you are, what information you need. That's what I meant. That's what I mean. As opposed to - I wait until the number is less than...I'm out there in the hot sun. I get the measurement, 6.001, no, no, no, wait. Now it's five. Where's the synchronicity in that? Am I concerned about how this is helping you, or am I concerned about how do I get this off my plate onto the next person? And I'd also say...   0:27:32.6 AS: Yep. And another word I was thinking about is coordination, the organization of the different elements of a complex body or activity so as to enable them to work together efficiently. You could also say that the state of flow or something like that?   0:27:48.7 BB: I'm glad you brought up the word "together." The big deal is: am I defining quality in a vacuum, or am I doing it with some sense of how this is being used? Which is also something we got into, I think in the, one of the very first podcasts, and you asked me what could our audience...give me an example of how the audience could use this. And I said you're delivering a report to the person down the street, around the corner. Go find out how they use it. I use the example of providing data for my consulting company to my CPA, and I called 'em up one day and I said, "how do you use this information? Maybe I can get it to you in an easier form." That's together. I mean relationships, we talked earlier about marriage, relationships are based on the concept of together, not separate, together. Saying something is good, without understanding how it's used is not about "together." It's about "separate."   0:28:54.1 BB: And so what I find is, in Lean, we look at: how can we get rid of the non-value-added tasks? Who defines value? Or I could say, and Lean folks will talk about the...they'll say this: "eliminate things that don't add value." My response to them is, if you tell me that this activity does not provide value in this room for the next hour, I'm okay with that. If you tell me this activity doesn't add value in this building for the next year, I'm okay with that. But if you don't define the size of the system when you tell me it doesn't add value, then you're implying that it doesn't add value, period.   0:29:43.4 BB: And I say, how do you know that? But this is the thinking, this is what baffles me on the thinking behind Lean and these concepts of non-value-added, value-added activities. I think all activities add value. The only question is where does a value show up? And likewise in Six Sigma quality, which is heavily based on conformist requirements and driving defects to zero, that's defining quality of the parts in isolation. What does that mean, Andrew? Separate. It means separate. Nothing about synchronicity. And so I'm glad you brought that point up because what I...this idea of "together" is throughout the Deming philosophy, a sense of together, defining quality in terms of a relationship.   0:30:31.1 AS: And I remember when I was young, I was working at Pepsi, and they sent me to learn with Dr. Deming. And then I came back, and what I was kind of looking for was tools, thinking that I would...and I came back of course, with something very different, with a new way of thinking. And then I realized that Dr. Deming is so far beyond tools. He's trying to think about how do we optimize this whole system? And once I started learning that about Dr. Deming, I could see the difference. Whereas, you may decide - let's say that you wanna learn about Lean and get a certification in Lean or something like that.   0:31:15.5 AS: Ultimately, you may go down a rabbit hole of a particular tool and become a master in that tool. Nothing wrong with that. But the point is, what is the objective? Who defines the quality? And Dr. Deming clearly stated in the seminars that I was in, and from readings that I've read, that the objective of quality isn't just to improve something in...you could improve something, the quality of something and go out of business. And so there's the bigger objective of it is: how does this serve the needs of our clients? So anyways, that's just some of my memories of those days.   0:31:52.4 BB: Yeah. But you're absolutely right. And the point I'm hoping to bring out in our sessions is: I'm not against tools and techniques. Tools and techniques are incredible. They're time savers, money savers, but let's use them with a sense of connections and relationships. And I agree with you, I've done plenty of seminars where people are coming in - they're all about tools and techniques. Tools and techniques is part of the reason I like to differentiate is to say....and again, I think people are hungrier for tools and techniques. Why? Because I don't think they've come to grips with what concepts and strategies are about. And I'm hoping our listeners can help us...can appreciate that they go together. Tools and techniques are about efficiency, doing things faster, doing things cheaper. Concepts and strategies are about doing the right thing. Ackoff would say "doing the right thing right." And short of that, we end up using tools to make things worse. And that's what I'm hoping people can avoid through the insights we can share from Dr. Deming.   0:33:05.4 AS: And I would say that, would it be the case that applying tools, and tools and techniques is kind of easy? You learn how they work, you practice with them, you measure, you give feedback, but actually going to figure out how we optimize this overall system is just so much harder. It's a complex situation, and I can imagine that there's some people that would retreat to tools and techniques and I saw it in the factory at Pepsi when people would basically just say, "well, I'm just doing my thing." That's it, 'cause it's too much trouble to go out and try to negotiate all of this with everybody.   0:33:50.7 BB: I think in part, I think as long as they're managing parts in isolation, which is the prevailing system of management, then, I agree with you. Becoming aware of interdependencies in the greater system, and I'll also point out is whatever system you're looking at is part of a bigger system, and then again, bigger system, then again, bigger system. What you define is the whole, is part of a bigger system. No matter how you define it, it's part of a bigger system because time goes to infinity. So your 10-year plan, well, why not a 20-year plan? Why not a 30-year plan? So no matter how big a system you look at, there is a bigger system. So let's not get overwhelmed. Let's take a system, which Ackoff would say, take a system which is not too big that you can't manage it, not too small, that you're not really giving it the good effort, but don't lose sight of whatever system you're looking at - you'll begin to realize it is actually bigger than that. Again, what Dr. Deming would say, the bigger the system, the more complicated, which is where you're coming from, but it also offers more opportunities. I think we're so used to tools and techniques.   0:35:14.3 BB: I don't think people have really given thought to the concepts and strategies of Deming's work as opposed to Lean and Six Sigma as being different, which is why I wanted to bring it up with our listeners, because I don't think people are defaulting on the tools. I just don't think they appreciate that concepts and strategies are different than tools and techniques. And I like to have them become aware of that difference and then understand where black-and-white thinking works, where continuum thinking has advantages. There's times to look at things as connected, and then there's times to just move on and make a decision, which is a lot easier because the implications aren't as important. But at least now we get back to choice, be conscious of the choice you're making, and then move on. All right, so also on the list we had, who defines quality?   0:36:09.0 BB: We talked about that. What is meant by good: the requirements are met. Who defines good? Again, if you're looking at Phil Crosby, who defines good? Someone has to set, here are the requirements for being "good." I could be giving a term paper and me saying to the students, this is what "good" means. Next thing I wanted to look at is, "why stop at good?" And, I'm pretty sure we've talked about this. A question I like to ask people is how much time they spend every day in meetings, discussing parts, components, things that are good and going well. And what I find is people don't spend a whole lot of time discussing things that are good and going well. So why do they stop? Why not? Because they're stopping at "good."   0:36:57.1 BB: And that goes back to the black-and-white thinking. They're saying things are "bad" or they're "good." We focus on the bad to make it good, and then we stop at good. Why do we stop at good? Because there's no sense of "better." All right. And what does that mean? So again, we have why stop at good? Why go beyond good? And this is...'cause I think we're talking about really smart people that stop at "good." And I think to better understand what that means, what I like to do is ask people, what's the letter grade required for a company to ship their products to the customer? What letter grade does NASA expect from all their suppliers? And I asked a very senior NASA executive this question years ago. He was the highest ranking NASA executive in the quality field.   0:37:50.5 BB: And I said, "what letter grade do you expect from your contractors?" And he said, A+. A+. And I said, actually, it's not A+. And he is like, "What do you mean?" I said, "actually the letter grade, your requirement is actually D-." And he pushed back at me and I said, what...he says, "well, what do you mean?" I said, "how do you define quality?" And he said, "We define quality as requirements are met. That's what we require." I said, "so you think A+ is the only thing that meets requirements?" He's like, "well, where are you coming from?" I said a pass-fail system, now we get back to category thinking, if it's good or bad, what is good? Good is passing. What is passing? What I explained to him: passing is anything from an A+ down to a D-.   0:38:38.9 BB: And he got a little antsy with me. I said, "well, the alternative is an F, you don't want an F, right?" I said, "well, what you're saying is that you'll take anything but an F and that means your requirements are actually D-." And then when I pushed back and I said, "is a D- the same as an A+?" And he said, "no." I said, "well, that's what I meant earlier" in the conversation with him. And I told him that they weren't interchangeable. So when you begin to realize that black and white quality, Phil Crosby-quality, allows for D minuses to be shipped to customers. Again, in this one way I define quality, I hand it off to you. 'Cause in that world, Andrew, I make the measurement, it's 5.999, it meets requirements, I ship it to you, your only response when you receive it is to say, "thank you."   [laughter]   0:39:33.2 BB: For a D minus, right? Well, when you begin to understand relationship quality, then you begin to understand that to improve the relationship, what's behind improving the relationship, Andrew, is shifting from the D- to the A. And what does that mean? What that means is, when I pay attention to your ability to receive what I give you, whether it's the pass or the information, the more synchronously I can provide that, the letter grade is going up, [laughter] and it continues to go up. Now, again, what I'm hoping is that the effort I'm taking to provide you with the A is worthwhile. But that's how you can have continuous improvement, is stop...not stopping at the D minus.   0:40:17.6 BB: Again, there may be situations where D minus is all you really need, but I, that's not me delivering to you a D minus blindly. That's you saying to me, "Hey, I don't need an A+ over here. All I really need is a D minus." That's teamwork, Andrew. So on the one hand, and what I think is, our listeners may not appreciate it, is who defines the letter grade? So in your organization, I would say to people, you give everyone a set of requirements to go meet, what letter grade does each of them has to meet to hand off to a coworker, to another coworker, to a customer? Every single one of those people, all they have to do if they're feeling disenfranchised, as you mentioned earlier, they're feeling like an interchangeable part, well, under those circumstances, Andrew, I don't have to call you up, I just deliver a D minus. And you can't complain because I've met the requirements.   0:41:14.2 BB: So what I think it could be a little scary is to realize, what if everybody in the company comes to work tomorrow feeling no dignity in work and decides to hand off the minimum on every requirement, how does that help? And what I find exciting by Deming's work is that Dr. Deming understood that how people are treated affects their willingness to look up, pay attention to the person they're receiving and deliver to them the appropriate letter grade. So I'm hoping that helps our audience understand that if it's a black and white system, then we're saying that it's good or it's bad. What that misses is, keyword Andrew, variation in good. So the opportunities to improve when we realize that there's a range, that "good" has variation. Another point I wanna make is, what allows the Deming philosophy to go beyond looking good?   0:42:16.2 BB: Well, if you look at the last chapter 10, I think, yeah, chapter 10 of the New Economics is...like the last six pages of the New Economics is all about Dr. Taguchi's work, and it's what Dr. Deming learned from Dr. Taguchi about this very thought of looking at quality in terms of relationships, not just in isolation, Phil Crosby-style meeting requirements. And the last thing I wanna throw out is I was listening to a interview with Russ Ackoff earlier today, and he gave the three steps to being creative. This is a lecture he gave at Rocketdyne years ago. And he said, the first thing is you have to discover self-limiting constraints. Second, you have to remove the constraint. And third, you have to exploit that removal. And what I want to close on is what Deming is talking about is the self-limiting constraint is when we stop at good.   [laughter]   0:43:20.7 BB: And I'm hoping that this episode provides more insights as to the self-imposed constraint within our organizations to stop at "good." What happens when we go beyond that? And how do you go beyond that? By looking at how others receive your work and then expand that others and expand that others and expand that others. And then what I find exciting is, and the work I do with students and with clients is, how can we exploit every day that idea of synchronicity of quality, and not looking at quality from a category perspective? Again, unless that's all that's needed in that situation. So I don't want to throw out category thinking, use category thinking where it makes sense, use continuum thinking where it makes sense. So that's what I wanted to close with.   0:44:12.1 AS: Bill, on behalf of everyone at The Deming Institute, I want to thank you again for this discussion. For listeners, remember to go to deming.org to continue your journey. This is your host, Andrew Stotz, and I'm gonna leave you with one of my favorite quotes from Dr. Deming, and it's very appropriate for the discussion that we've had today. "People are entitled to joy in work."  

Today's Wake Up Carolina!:Ken and Rev Discuss the advantage of getting away from the internet monopoly.Ken Discusses the Bidens and their unusual means of getting Rich.The FBI might be totally corrupt and the media refuses to report it.Has the American System dissolved into tyranny?www.studio550boston.com

American's view of what an oppressive, authoritarian society looks like is shaped by models like Naziism, Communism, George Orwell's 1984, or perhaps the persecution of the early church. These systems are both formally repressive, relying on hard government power. And also almost entirely bad. But there are other models in which bad is mixed with good, and in which the system functions differently while still being at some level repressive. China is an example of this. The United States is another. The US model is very unique, based on a hybrid public-private-philanthropic system, and must be understood on its own terms.

AMERICAN PROSPERITY – Beth Ann puts her own spin on an article written by Curtis Ellis titled “An American System for America Prosperity.” “The ideology of global free trade is not American – nor is it the free market system.” --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/loving-liberty/support

AMERICAN PROSPERITY (part 2) Beth puts her spin on Curtis Ellis' essay entitled “The American System for Prosperity” which was inspired by his book “Pandemonium: China's Global Strategy to Cripple America.” He makes a strong case for tariffs, which help protect American products from cheap imports, especially those from China. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/loving-liberty/support

Yeeerrrrr!!! What is going on everybody! Welcome to 2023. We are starting the year off with a bang with our special guest. We have certified CBT coach, the idea architect who is helping men create and restructure ideas, and the creator of " Infrastructure of A Man" Mr. Virgil Johnson. Make sure you tune in as he and Rob discuss the current state of men's mental health, the current attack on masculinity and much more. Follow us on Instagram: The show: fme_podcast Rob: komplete_vision Pass The Peaz App: passthepeazapp https://www.passthepeaz.app/ Make sure you follow Virgil Johnson Instagram : infrastructure_ofa_man   YouTube  https://youtu.be/5Q1JIrfnfic   Website https://www.vjohnsoninspires.com/   The Live From the Kitchen Podcast https://anchor.fm/virgil-johnson7   Making Your Enemy Your Footstool: How to Use the American System to Benefit You as a Black Individual in America (Self published book)   https://www.amazon.com/Making-Your-Enemy-Footstool-Individual/dp/1648582729/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=28UHJ5DVQYNT4&keywords=making+your+enemy+your+footstool&qid=1672687516&sprefix=making+your+ene%2Caps%2C86&sr=8-1   Garden Bed of Life Journal (Self Published Journal)   https://www.amazon.com/Garden-Life-Journal-Virgil-Johnson/dp/B09BGHYZS3/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=1J3Q0CVSEA2Q7&keywords=the+garden+bed+of+life+journal+virgil+johnson&qid=1672687654&sprefix=the+gardenbed+of+life+journal+virgil+johnson%2Caps%2C71&sr=8-1  

On today's episode we discuss the M2 and M2A1 Medium Tanks-- the answer to the Medium Tank question... or was it? Tune in to find out! Enjoy! John Burgess ThePanzerPodcast@gmail.com thepanzerpodcast.bigcartel.com Additional Sources: "Definition and Uses of RHA Equivalences for Medium Caliber Targets. Interlaken, Switzerland: 19th International Symposium of Ballistics, 7–11 May 2001", by Magness, and Burkins, "Panther: Germany's Quest for Combat Dominance" by Michael & Gladys Green, "Armor-Piercing Ammunition for Gun, 90-MM, M3" by Washington: Office Of The Chief Of Ordnance, January 1945, "The Commander's Vision in Blue and Grey: The Roles of Adna R. Chaffee, Jr., James H. Wilson and The American Civil War in The Development of American Armor Doctrine" by John T. Broom, "Tanks and Armor in Modern Warfare" by James Cary, "Mechanization in the Army" by Adna R. Chaffee Jr., "'Mechanized Cavalry.' Lecture delivered at the Army War College, 1939" By Adna R. Chaffee Jr., "Statement of Major General Adna R. Chaffee Jr. Delivered to the Sub-Committee of the Committee on Appropriations, 1941" by Adna R. Chaffee Jr., "Forging the Thunderbolt: A History of the Development of the Armored Force" by Mildred Gillie, "The Tank Pioneers" by Kenneth Mackey, "Mobility, Shock and Firepower: The Emergence of the U.S. Army's Armor Branch, 1917-1945" by Robert Stewart Cameron, "Table of Metallurgical Properties of Naval Armor and Construction Materials" by Nathan Okun, "From the American System to Mass Production, 1800–1932: The Development of Manufacturing Technology in the United States" by David A. Hounshell.

Guests: Tommy Hicks, Co-chair of the Republican National Committee, On to discuss the FBI search of Mar-A-Lago. Dr. Frank Sorrentino, Constitutional Law Professor, On to discuss his book "Presidential Power and the American System." John Agresto, Professor of American History, On to discuss his book "The Death of Learning." And ... Your thoughts on the latest in the news.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This week, we're joined by former producer Mike Olko for a conversation on surviving inflation and soaring gas prices which turns into one of markets and the American System of Government. We had fun with the talking, hopefully you find the listening to be a good time, on this week's What Divides Us. Send questions to todd@toddtalk.com.

Part IV: The Era of Corruption, 1817–1829. Narrated by Scott R. Pollack

Part V: The Failed Jacksonian Revolution, 1829–1849. Narrated by Scott R. Pollack

Part V: The Failed Jacksonian Revolution, 1829–1849. Narrated by Scott R. Pollack

Part V: The Failed Jacksonian Revolution, 1829–1849. Narrated by Scott R. Pollack

Part IV: The Era of Corruption, 1817–1829. Narrated by Scott R. Pollack

Part IV: The Era of Corruption, 1817–1829. Narrated by Scott R. Pollack