Podcasts about don it

Are you feeling burned out or stuck in your profession? In this Monday Morning Episode, we're sitting down with Don Barden, an esteemed economist with over 25 years of experience on Wall Street who now dedicates his expertise to the dental industry. With a Ph.D. and deep understanding of financial markets, Don shares his unique perspective on the mental roadblocks that dentists face. He introduces a compelling framework that categorizes dentists into four types: failures, frustrated, traditionally successful, and transformative practitioners. Don's goal? To guide dental professionals in shifting their mindset, reigniting their passion, and paving the way for enduring success and fulfillment in their careers.Drawing from his vast experience, Don lays out concrete strategies for developing the right mindset while steering clear of unproductive social expectations. He talks about the transformative power of focusing on personal and professional growth and stresses the importance of a self-managed practice. The discussion is packed with valuable advice for dentists aspiring to elevate both their career satisfaction and financial success. By the end of the episode, you'll be equipped with actionable insights to embark on a journey toward a thriving and lucrative dental practice.What You'll Learn in This Episode:The four types of dentists and where you might fit in.Why mindset is critical for overcoming frustration and burnout.Practical steps to shift your thinking and reignite your passion for dentistry.How social frameworks may hinder your progress and how to block them out.The benefits of committing to continuous personal and professional growth.Strategies for developing a self-managed, successful dental practice.How to unlock potentially lucrative opportunities within the dental industry.Let's listen in to these transformative insights with Don today!‍‍Sponsors:For DSO integrations, startup solutions, and all your dental IT needs, let our sponsors, Darkhorse Tech, help out so you can focus on providing the amazing care that you do. For 1 month of FREE service, visit their link today! https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/darkhorse-deal/‍You can reach out to Don Barden here:Website: https://donbarden.com/Email: don@dwbarden.comLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donwbarden/‍Mentions and Links: Books:The Self-Managing Company: Freeing yourself up from everything that prevents you from creating a 10x bigger future.‍People:Dan Sullivan‍Places/Economy:Wall Street‍If you want your questions answered on Monday Morning Episodes, ask me on these platforms:My Newsletter: https://thedentalmarketer.lpages.co/newsletter/The Dental Marketer Society Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2031814726927041‍Episode Transcript (Auto-Generated - Please Excuse Errors)‍Michael: Hey, Don, so talk to us before we jump into the one piece of advice. If you can give us a little bit about your background, who you are. Don: Yeah, I appreciate this. First of all, before we even get going, I want to thank you for what you're doing. I tell you, this show is as good as it gets for getting people pumped up and ready to go and getting that information out quickly to people who need it the most.So forget about me, man. I just want to thank you for for what you're doing. And yeah, I'll give you a quick background I'm a classically trained economist, Ph. D. S.25 plus years on Wall Street. I know economics inside and out, but I'm really a frustrated anthropologist.So I care more about the decisions people make I care about yield curves and interest rates. So we can talk about that, but it's boring. What's important and I think this is so applicable to the dental industry. is what's happening. How does it make you feel? And most importantly, what do you want?And I think that's one of the big struggles right now in dentistry. I've worked with dentists literally all over the world. It's my favorite group to work with. And for a couple of reasons one, most dentists out there are very frustrated right now. And they're frustrated because they fallen out of love.With their first love or their first career love and that's dentistry and they didn't fall out of love with the active dentistry. They fell out of love with all the crap that comes with it, Cause nobody tells dentists how to run their business and what to do. money comes in, money goes out, you keep what's left over.but then you wake up one day and you don't feel good and you're frustrated. But here's what I've learned is why I just love dentists. Dentists at their core are caregivers. They got into it with some unique path. Every dentist has got a cool story. But at the end of the day, when they get into it, they are caregivers and dentistry is a way to continue to care for people and the better they are at it and the more excited they are about it, the more the universe gives them opportunities and new patients and things to go out there and help and serve people.Dentistry is a self fulfilling prophecy. for a love and it's a love that dentists have for their craft and for caring for people. Dude, of all the people I work with around the world, they're the best because they have that thing, that just makes them special. So, I've had a good career as a professor, as a consultant, as a wall street guy.And at the end of the day, if I could just spend the rest of my days with dentists, I'd do it. Cause they're, that cool. Michael: So like, what would be the one piece of advice you'd like to give us that can move the needle here?Don: Yeah. When I say dentists are frustrated, a really unique proposition because there's only four times a dentist out there. There's the failures, the frustrated, the traditionally successful, and then transformatives. most people in the consulting world or whatever, they prey on. vendors are the same way that people are trying to sell you folks stuff.They go after the failures because you're drowning and you'll do anything not to drown so they can sell you more stuff or they go after the traditionally successful. And those are the dentists that are just sitting around. They got a good, you're a member of the country club. Kids are in a private school.You feel good about your spouse. Everything is good, but you're not going to do anything to disrupt that. Those folks take no risk. But what's interesting is where the market goes. Cause they think, everybody knows you, or, oh, you have a thousand new patients a month, or, oh, you got this. We need to do it.The reality is you're not gonna do anything. It's because you're traditionally successful. You made it. Okay. You're not going to do it. The two types of dentists that I like are the other two, the frustrated, who are folks that are just raising their hand saying, I need help, but I don't know where to go.Can you help me get from here to here? And then the transformatives. Those are the dentists that are always looking forward, always saying, I want to try something new. I want to continue to grow. I want to serve more people. How do I continue to transform? So I think the first thing dentists have to do right now is ask themselves, Are you a failure?Or you're just frustrated. Are you a traditionally successful person, which means you're pretending, you don't want to risk anything. You're just going to pull up in your cocoon or are you transformative?either way, the dentists that are going to survive and be happiest in the future or the frustrated and transformative, it's not going to be traditionally successful. It's certainly not going to be the failures. So if somebody's listening to this, they're like I'm a little frustrated.Okay, let me tell you what to do. Or even if you're transformative, I'll give you the same advice. You might want to have to write this down. You need to change the way you think about how you think, about the way that you think about your thinking. You got that? So don't change your mind on something.Change the way you think. About how you think about your thinking. And then what happens if you look out there and you realize, I need to get rid of all this social construct, this framework of what I read and what my buddies are telling me and what I see these other people who aren't even in the industry doing.Forget that. Here's what dentists really want, whether they're frustrated or whether they're transformative, they want the same thing. They just don't know how to voice it. And this is what we try to help them go, wow, you're right. So many dentists right now are frustrated. They want out, they want to just quit.They want to dump, they want to say, I'll sell it. I'll make a few bucks and I can brag to the country club that I sold my business and my spouse will be fine. And my kids will be okay. I'm not going to do the math about being broke when I'm 75 or 80, but we'll figure it out. I just want to go.That's what the industry is telling you to do. You need to change the way you think about that. Maybe your frustration doesn't warrant selling and then transforming is the same way. When you're transformative, the universe brings every opportunity possible to you. And when that happens, you're going to get some people coming in and going, we love you.We want to be a part of you. We'll pay you X amount more than what you're worth because we like what you build. And frankly, we think we can do it better. Yeah. Don't fall for that. So here's what I tell people when you're frustrated or when you're transformative, what you really want is a choice.You don't want to say I can sell out and just put some money in my pocket. You want to commit to changing the way you think about how you think about the way that you think about your thinking and say, look, if I can roll up my sleeves and over the next 12 months, I really get back into this. I really put my head down.I really start focusing on team development. I start focusing on the economics of what's happening. I start looking into the future and create a plan. First thing that's gonna happen is you're gonna fall in love again with the craft. You're gonna fall in love and say, Oh my God, when I start blocking all the noise out, I stopped worrying about the social construct or the framework about what everybody else is saying and doing.I forget what my buddies at the country club are saying. I commit with enormous amounts of courage and capability. I commit to 12 months of real focus. Which means I'm going to become self managed as Dan Sullivan said. So I'm going to be a guy or lady in this business who I can walk away for a month, take my kids to Europe and Asia and Australia and come back and I made more money than I would have made if I was here.That's what you want. But to do that, you got to change the way you think about how you think about the way you think about your thinking. what happens if you roll up your sleeves for 12 months and really get in, you're going to get some help. Sometime bring in people who are going to help you out.Here's what's going to happen. You're going to wake up in 12 months. And 1st of all, you're gonna be in love with the business again, which is a beautiful, wonderful feeling. But number two, you're going to find that that choice has two sides to it. And it's both in your favor that you sit there and look at it and go, Oh my God.Thankfully I've spent 12 months getting my life back together, focusing on my practice, team development, everything I need to do. I've got so many new pages coming in. I'm frankly in love again, and I'm making so much money. Why would I sell I'm making money when I'm not even here.Why would I sell? Or when opportunity does knock, guess what? You're going to sit there and go, yeah, man, we're making a fortune. You don't even need me. This is a self managed practice. My name's not on the marquee. This is a machine that is just pumping out money. I'd sell it to you, but how serious are you?And now you're gonna see a premium kick in. So imagine that in 12 months you went from frustrated or transformative to so unbelievably happy that you have a choice. I love my business again. I'm making so much money. It's crazy. I can take months off and make more money by not working than working.I am in love and I'm making a lot of money and there's no end in sight to it. Why would I leave? Somebody might come up and offer you so much money. It's ridiculous. Real money, adult money, because you've created a self managed business that runs on its own. It's growing and it's got so much enthusiasm that it's contagious.That gets you a premium. So don't think about what am I going to do to sell. Don't think about what am I going to do because I'm miserable. Think about how can I change my thinking? How can I commit with courage to seek the capabilities necessary to go out and just rock it? And when I do, I'm going to have some ups and downs.during this next 12 months, and I always tell people this, if you're really committed to doing this, You're going to learn the art of being a successful manic depressant. Because one minute you're up, one minute you're down. One minute you're up, one minute you're down. But then it starts shortening and then before you know it, you say to yourself, holy cow, these swings aren't like they used to be.My company's running on its own and it's great. And you sit back and you're in love again, you're making money again, and now you have a choice. And I think that's the biggest thing dentistry is facing right now is they don't think they have a choice anymore, but the only person that owns that is you, the dentist.And if you say, I'm willing to change the way I think about my thinking and I'm willing to commit with courage and I'm going to go for these next 12 months and roll up my sleeves. So I know in 12 months I'm either going to be making so much money and it's crazy that I wouldn't ever want to walk away from my first true professional love.dentistry or because of that, these folks that are throwing money around and throw real money around and when they do, that's a good day too. But either way, you now have a choice. You've got the high ground and you're driving it, but it comes from commitment and courage to change the way you think about how you think about the way that you think about your thinking.And it puts a bogey out there that if you do it, man, it's just like working out, 90 days. It's going to be better if you focus on yourself and your business to drive not to sell Not to not feel miserable, but to drive to a point of nirvana where you have a choice Dude, there's nothing wrong with that And I see dennis all the time And it usually changes the mind when I just say the one thing Would you like to fall in love again with your career see men and women tear up because the real answer is yes I All right, it's going to take some work.It's going to take commitment and courage. We're going to get the capabilities out there. dude, in the blink of an eye, it's going to be 12 months down the road. And since you had the courage to change the way you think about how you think about the way that you think about your thinking, you now have choice.And both those choices are good. And the ultimate scenario is when you're in a position where you can't make a bad decision. You stay and keep it? Great. You sell it for a super premium? Great. They're both good decisions. So that's it, You know, Change the way you think about how you think about the way that you're thinking.Be honest with you. Am I a failure? Am I frustrated? Am I traditionally successful? Or am I transformative? Either way, if you're honest, and you say, I want to fall in love with it again, change the way you think about how you think about the way you think about your thinking. Have commitment and courage and go out there and rock it.And there's so many scholars out there, Dan Sullivan, all of them, who talk about that. You get out there and do that, you'll be in love again, and that's all anybody wants, right? Michael: Yeah. Don: It's a great thing. And dentistry is set for some big economic upturns right now. But it's going to be those who follow that path.there's nothing wrong with having a good choice. Michael: Yeah, to change the mindset of it. Awesome, I appreciate your time. And if anyone has further questions Where can they find you? Don: Yeah, they find me on LinkedIn. Just say, Hey Don, I heard you on this show. Anybody who I do a podcast for, and I'm happy to do this for your listeners.we wrote a book years ago that's, I think in 39 countries that talks about this type of mindset. I'll send anybody a free eCopy of it if they want, but they can reach out to me on LinkedIn or you can just send me a direct email at don@dwbardon.com. It's DON at dwb. A. R. D. E. N. dot com. I answer every email myself.I talked to everybody. We got a great team here, but man, I'd love to help anybody out if they want to reach out and you just need a kind word. I'll be happy to move you from failure to frustrated. Or if you say I'm stuck in this loop of being traditionally successful, and that's not really me, but I'm stuck.I want to get back to being transformative. Love your work, man. And I really appreciate what you're doing here. Michael: Awesome. So that's going to be in the show notes below and also on the dental marketer society, Facebook group. And Don, thank you so much for being with me on this Monday morning episode.Don: Hey man, keep it up. You're doing great work and just thrilled and honored to be here. So thank you.

Happy Valentine's Day, Parents! Ready to love on your marriage this week? Don and Suz answer your questions about how to take care of your marriage. If you are looking for inspiration and practical ways to build your marriage relationship line- this podcast is made for you! Questions we've gotten about marriage: How do you invest time in your marriage? 1. Get date nights with your spouse!! It's so valuable to spend intentional times with your spouse and if finances if a hindrance, get creative and find friends who would kid trade for a night. The benefits of being away from kids for an extended period of time can help create connections and a space to dream about your family's future. “Men often care about building a life with their teammate and investing in the marriage relationship by dreaming about what is next.” - Suz “Women love getting a break from the constant needs and it fills up their cup. And we love having adult conversation.” - Suz “Date nights are a must – if you don't feel connected to your spouse – date nights are essential.” -Don and Suz 2. Go to bed together! Suzanne remembers asking Don to go to bed with her. She remembers her parents didn't and she valued the sacrifice Don made to stay up later than he planned to spend a few moments processing with Suz before bed. It will change in certain seasons but going to bed together creates space for connection. 3.Sit by each other. A lot of parents are bookends for their kids (playing defense) but we chose to sit together no matter what. So much so it feels weird when we don't sit next to each other. 4. Get your kids out of your bed!! This may be easier said then done (or controversial in today's society) BUT it gives both spouses a better chance of getting lucky

Home Loans Radio 10.07.2023 With That Mortgage guy Don It is officially October! Lets get preapproved so you can buy your own haunted House

Overview Don lives in Ohio with his wife and recently retired. As a retirement goal, he wanted to write a book and he's written a series of humor books. Along with writing, he has been practicing standup comedy. Book Website https://donake.allauthor.com/ YouTube https://youtu.be/bJp71xDruDc Transcript Stephen: today on Discovered Wordsmiths, I have Don Ake. Don, good morning. How are you doing? Good morning. It's a Don: great morning here. Stephen: Yes. It's finally getting warmer around here though. We've got some cold temperatures at night still. Don: Been a weird spring but yeah. We'll take Stephen: the sunshine. Yeah, definitely. So Dawn before we talk about your book let's find out a little bit about you where you live and some of the things you like to do besides writing. Don: I live in Jackson Township and right now, this is a transition period for me 'cause I retired from my day job in Stephen: September. Okay. Don: And so I writing. I'm spending most of my time right now, even in retirement writing my fifth book which will be a business related book. Oh, nice. But besides that I like to play tennis. Since I retired I've been doing some standup comedy. Really? Yes. So I'm a humor doesn't translate. 100% over to standup, but I've never had time to do standup and my friends have always wanted me to get back on stage. I used to do standup years ago, and so since yeah, since September. I've been on stage several times and that's a fun thing to Stephen: do. Yeah. Cool. You, you write humor books and we were gonna talk about writing humor later, so that'd be great to talk about how it's different than standup comedy and compare and contrast that a bit. We'll get into that a little bit. That'd be great. Why did you wanna start writing these humor books? Don: It was an interesting thing in that I wrote a humor column in college at the University of Akron a long time ago. And I, at some point a few years ago, several years ago now I started, I wanted to start a humor blog. So I call the column that I wrote for the University of Akron book, delight was called Aches Pains. Alright, play on my name. And so when I started the humor blog, I called it Aches, pains, humor Blog, and I, at the beginning of the blog, I said, yeah, I'm just back after a brief 32 year respite. But the thing with humor writing with me is even though I had taken all that time off and I had written stuff, I'd written some sketch humor I'd done standup comedy in between. So it, it wasn't like I hadn't written anything but humor writing comes naturally to me. So it wasn't, it wasn't too long after I started blogging that. I was back doing what I do very well and do naturally. So then I started this humor blog in 2011, and by 2015 I had enough of enough following and enough material that I put it into a book that's called Just Make Me a Sandwich, which is my first humor book. So I never set out to write a book. I was just having fun. I was just writing blog posts and all of a sudden I have a book. My my goal, one of my life goals was to write a book after I retired. And so I figured after I retired, I'd have time, I'd write a book, and so I, I forget the math. Now it's I fulfilled one of my major life goals like seven years early. Okay. Which, is very rare. Followed up, just make me a sandwich a few years later with will there be free appetizers, and then kept writing. And then a couple years later introduced in 2020, right? In the middle of this pandemic. The current one, Turkey terror at my door. So that's the history from college to now. Stephen: And that's cool. I remember the book Delight 'cause I went to Akron also. I, I don't know if I remember your column, but that was 30 years ago tell us a little bit about Turkey terror and the other books. It's humor writing. So tell everybody a little bit about what that means and what they can expect to see in the books.

WITH Dr. Don Grant, 2022 President of the American Psychological Association, Society for Media Psychology and Technology and Chair of the American Psychological Association, Device Management and Intelligence Committee and National Advisor of Healthy Device Management for Newport Healthcare          Did you know we're currently in the midst of a national mental health crisis for teens and young adults? Sadly, it's true. Over the past few years, we've seen a dramatic increase in the number of teen suicides along with soaring rates of teenage depression, substance abuse, anxiety, eating disorders, trauma, and self-harming behaviors. Suicide is now the third-leading cause of death among 15‒24-year-olds, exceeded only by accidental deaths and homicide. A 2021 study found that 48% of young people admitted to struggling with mental health issues and more than one-third of those went untreated. A recent study conducted by the National Institute of Health indicated that for young children diagnosed with depression and anxiety, approximately half of their mental health issues were evident by age 14.   Although psychological counseling and medication are available for children as young as five years of age who have clinically diagnosed mental problems, roughly two-thirds of these children have not received treatment or proper medical intervention. Perhaps now, more than ever before, we need to be aware of the warning signs and symptoms so that vulnerable, at-risk young people can feel supported and understood and get the early intervention they may need.   If you want to learn more about how we can help young people who may be struggling with mental health issues, please listen to my interview with Dr. Don Grant, 2022 President of the American Psychological Association, Society for Media Psychology and Technology, and Chair of the American Psychological Association, Device Management, and Intelligence Committee.   What You'll Hear in This Episode: What are some of the primary mental health disorders for teens and young adults? What happened in 2012 for us to see a spike in depression, anxiety, and suicide? What are some of the symptoms that parents and educators have to watch out for? What are some of the primary mental health disorders for teens and young adults? How to notice if your kids are suffering from what Don calls #compare and #despair. What to do if you notice a difference in your child's social media. How can filters on social media damage a teen's self-confidence and self-image? How can parents talk to their kids about online bullying? What is the online disinhibition effect? What are cyberbullying and cyber aggression? The three different people that can be involved in a cyber-aggressive act, whether it's in real life or online. What parents need to know before they give their kids their first device.   Today's Takeaway: A variety of factors such as poverty, fear of global warming along with the pandemic, and excessive consumption of social media have contributed to the rise in mental health issues for young people and adults. Increased rates of low self-esteem, stress, and anxiety have left this generation far more vulnerable to incidents of bullying, fears of being ostracized, and chronic depression. Young people who experience recurring incidents of abuse or chronic neglect or witness domestic violence, or parental mental health or substance abuse problems are particularly vulnerable. The increasing number of children as young as ten years old attempting suicide is a particularly alarming statistic. There is help available but early intervention is critical. Teaching young children to modify their thoughts and behavior is far more effective at an early age. Inpatient programs may offer the best chance of success. It's important we don't allow shame or stigmatization to take precedence over obtaining early treatment and intervention for a young person in crisis. Remember every day is a gift and the gift we get from recognizing when a young person is struggling and getting them the help they need can make a huge difference not only in their childhood but also in their mental health as an adult as well. I'm Florine Mark and that's “Today's Takeaway.”   Quotes: “Look at your kids and their behavior. If you see a big change, then certainly investigate what's going on.” — Don “We have to remember, social media is completely self-curated, we can create that store window in any way we want.” — Don  “If anyone, and especially a teenager is posting anything on social media, what do they need? Why are they putting it out there? — Don “It's the kid and adults as well. They have FOMO. They're feeling like they're not current. They're feeling like they're not relevant.” — Don “Cyberbullying is part of cyber aggression, and it can look a lot of different ways.” — Don “The first thing I tell parents is: model behavior.” — Don “There is no seat belt for social media.” — Don   Brought to You By: Florine Mark   Mentioned in This Episode: American Psychological Association

Jason talks to Don Scott, CEO of Frank Mortgage. It is a new company looking to take the bias out of shopping for a mortgage and make sure that consumers get the best rate possible. Don talks about the surprising piece of feedback that he has received post launching Frank Mortgage. Episode Highlights4.30: The market has a flaw in the way it's set up. The brokers are supposed to represent the customer, but we are paid by the lenders so that can steer a bias into the process and bias because it's not necessarily the same compensation between lenders may not be identical, says Don.5.44: Some of the brokers out there provide wonderful service for their customers. But there is this inherent flaw in the way that business is set up. So, customers often enter the process feeling very uncertain and not informed, and they often exit the process feeling the same way.8.51: Features matter as much as rate does to a lot of customers. It's always not just a pure rate decision and we can help them understand all of that, but then they ultimately can make their own decisions, says Don.12.49: There is a customer adoption and acceptance that has to take place for this kind of product and ultimately where we get down the road is where we can ask the customer for less and go to direct source to get more information, says Don. 17.00: Don explains how customers select products in the portal, how they move to the documentation stage and stages of approval with the lender.27.24: At the end of the day, incentives are often designed to control that person who is the bottleneck or is that person is going to write that business, says Jason.28.06: Raising capital is a major challenge that Don had faced while launching Frank Mortgage. 29.36: As per Don there is a great opportunity to enhance the experience of consumers in the mortgage market and the feedback, they are getting consumers is confirming that it's very positive so far and they don't see the competitors that are in the marketplace.3 Key PointsDon explains how the market has sort of turned into a Marcus. It's very focused on maximizing the outcomes from the brokers of the lenders and not so much for the customers. There is a lot of data scrubbing and a lot of back and forth between the broker network and lenders, but it's of time and resources, and with a digitized process like this, you can simplify that and deliver a complete file 100% of the time that has some algorithmically driven underwriting, says Don. Talking about feedbacks received from consumers Don says that they have heard in surveys that more and more consumers want to have online solutions for mortgages. So, they presented one to them and now Frank Mortgage is getting positive feedback about the experience. Tweetable Quotes"I have been around the mortgage market quite a long time, funded some of the medium and small sized lenders that are in the marketplace space know their businesses fairly well." - Don"It's not the customer that's paying us and so our economic incentive isn't always aligned with the customers best outcome." - DonResources MentionedFacebook – Jason Pereira's FacebookLinkedIn – Jason Pereira's LinkedInWoodgate.com – Sponsor Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

In this week's show, Phil talks to Don Pezet, the CTO and Lead Edutainer at ITPro.TV. He has been working in the IT industry since 1997 and has been training others since 2001. He is a certified trainer with many vendors including Microsoft, CompTIA, Google and Cisco. His combination of real-world experience, textbook knowledge, and a questionable sense of humour have helped him to entertain and educate thousands of people. Don talks about why it's vital that we are continually learning throughout our IT journey. He also discusses we should never settle when it comes to our IT career.   KEY TAKEAWAYS:   TOP CAREER TIP Always do your best to be continually learning and developing, even in your spare time, which can provide a fun and experimental time. Make IT your passion and always look at what is possible.   WORST CAREER MOMENT Don worked with a student who did not correctly implement a server and its functionality. This led to a huge loss of data.   CAREER HIGHLIGHT Don has overseen the implementation and creation of many systems from scratch, taking advantage of new technologies and helping to found new ways of working that have lasted.   THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T The stability of the IT sector. IT is not going away, and will only ever grow stronger and more robust as a sector.   THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – The potential for experimentation and creativity. What's the best career advice you received? – To apply for jobs you're not qualified for. What's the worst career advice you received? – TO get out of IT as it's not stable. What would you do if you started your career now? – Don would focus on cybersecurity as it's become far more important. What are your current career objectives? – Making the training product that he wished had existed when he first began in IT What's your number one non-technical skill? – Reading and communication. How do you keep your own career energized? – By always learning something new. What do you do away from technology? – Reading and experimenting with technology.   FINAL CAREER TIP Never settle when it comes to your career. Some find a comfortable niche and don't like to be challenged. But the world of IT is one that provides endless possibilities in areas you're passionate about.   BEST MOMENTS  (6:55) – Don – “It used to be enough to say that you wanted to get into IT – now there are all types of specialisations” (8:14) – Don - “A good IT pro is always learning!” (16:50) – Don – “We're constantly having to evaluate the field to determine if we've got the right training to set people up to be successful” (19:36) – Don – “What's exciting about IT is the experimentation – that you can try different things”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organizations to design, develop, and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms: Twitter: https://twitter.com/_PhilBurgess LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Instagram: https://instagram.com/_philburgess Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast's website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – DON PEZET Don Pezet is the CTO and Lead Edutainer at ITPro.TV. He has been working in the IT industry since 1997 and has been training others since 2001. He is a certified trainer with many vendors including Microsoft, CompTIA, Google and Cisco. His combination of real-world experience, textbook knowledge, and a questionable sense of humour have helped him to entertain and educate thousands of people.   CONTACT THE GUEST – DON PEZET Twitter: https://twitter.com/DonPezet LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/donpezet Website: https://www.itpro.tv/

How do you handle stressful situations? Everyone's built a little different — some people can take their hits on the chin and come out smiling. But not everyone can take those hits. The pandemic has taken its mental toll on so many people. Others might still be struggling with past traumas and dealing with anxiety. Their situation keeps them in a state of constant worry and hypervigilance. That state of mind doesn't only harm their mental and emotional health — it can make them sick and more prone to physical diseases. More than ever, it's time to begin mental healing from past traumas, so we can better cope with our daily stresses.  Dr Don Wood joins us again in this episode to talk about the TIPP program and how it facilitates mental healing. He explains how our minds are affected by traumas and how these can affect our health and performance. If we want to become more relaxed, we need to learn how to go into the alpha brainwave state. Since mental healing is not an immediate process, Dr Don also shares some coping strategies we can use in our daily lives.  If you want to know more about how neuroscience can help you achieve mental healing, then this episode is for you.    Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how trauma can put you in a constant state of survival and affect your performance and daily life.  Understand that it's not your fault. Achieving mental healing will require you to learn how to go into an alpha brainwave state.  Discover healthy habits that will keep you from entering survival mode.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron!  A new program, BOOSTCAMP, is coming this September at Peak Wellness! Listen to other Pushing the Limits episodes:  #183: Sirtuin and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova #189: Understanding Autophagy and Increasing Your Longevity with Dr Elena Seranova  #199: How Unresolved Trauma Prevents You from Having a Healthy Life With Dr Don Wood Check out Dr Don Wood's books:  Emotional Concussions: Understanding How Our Nervous System is Affected By Events and Experiences Throughout Our Life You Must Be Out Of Your Mind: We All Need A Reboot   Connect with Dr Don Wood: Inspired Performance Institute I Facebook I LinkedIn     Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health programme, all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, goals, and lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity, or want to take your performance to the next level and learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health, and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again. Still, I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within three years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes, chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   Lisa's Anti-Ageing and Longevity Supplements  NMN: Nicotinamide Mononucleotide, an NAD+ precursor Feel Healthier and Younger* Researchers have found that Nicotinamide Adenine Dinucleotide or NAD+, a master regulator of metabolism and a molecule essential for the functionality of all human cells, is being dramatically decreased over time. What is NMN? NMN Bio offers a cutting edge Vitamin B3 derivative named NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) that can boost the levels of NAD+ in muscle tissue and liver. Take charge of your energy levels, focus, metabolism and overall health so you can live a happy, fulfilling life. Founded by scientists, NMN Bio offers supplements of the highest purity and rigorously tested by an independent, third party lab. Start your cellular rejuvenation journey today. Support Your Healthy Ageing We offer powerful third party-tested, NAD+ boosting supplements so you can start your healthy ageing journey today. Shop now: https://nmnbio.nz/collections/all NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 capsules NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 250mg | 30 Capsules 6 Bottles | NMN (beta Nicotinamide Mononucleotide) 500mg | 30 Capsules Quality You Can Trust — NMN Our premium range of anti-ageing nutraceuticals (supplements that combine Mother Nature with cutting edge science) combats the effects of aging while designed to boost NAD+ levels. Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection, 'Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Episode Highlights [06:05] The Pandemic-Induced Mental Health Crisis The pandemic forced many people into a state of freeze mode, not the typical fight or flight response.  As people get out of freeze mode, there will be a rise in mental health issues.  Teenagers are robbed of the opportunity to develop social and communication skills during this time.  [08:24] How Dr Don Wood Started Studying Traumas Dr Don's wife grew up in a household with an angry father who instilled fear. He used to think that she would be less anxious when they started to live together, but she struggled with mental healing.  She had an inherent belief that misfortune always follows good things. Her traumas and fears also led to a lot of health issues.  She also was hyper-vigilant, which she used as a protective mechanism. However, this prevented her from being relaxed and happy. A person's environment can dictate whether they go into this hyper-vigilant state, but genetics can also play a factor.  [15:42] How Trauma Affects the Brain Trauma is caused by a dysregulation of the subconscious. If your brain is in survival mode, it will access data from the past and create physiological responses to them. These emotions demand action, even when it is no longer possible or necessary. This dysregulation prevents you from living in the present and initiating mental healing.  In this state, people can be triggered constantly, which interferes with their day-to-day life.  [21:07] The Role of the Subconscious Your conscious mind only takes up around 5%, while the subconscious takes up 95%. Your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real and imagined.  In survival mode, people will keep replaying the past and think about different scenarios and decisions.  You're left stuck because the subconscious mind only lives in the now. It does not have a concept of time.  This process is the brain trying to protect you. [25:04] What Happens When You're Always in Survival Mode Being in survival mode will take a physical toll since it's constantly activating the nervous system, increasing cortisol and adrenaline. When you're in this state, your body and mind cannot work on maintenance and recovery. It is more focused on escaping or fixing perceived threats. Over time, this will affect your immune system and make you sick.  To truly achieve mental healing, you need to get to the root cause of your problems.  However, you also have to develop coping strategies to manage your day-to-day activities.  [30:18] Changing Your Brainwave State Traumatic events are usually stored in a beta brainwave state. Changing your response to traumatic events starts with going into an alpha brainwave state.  The beta state is usually from 15 - 30 hertz, while the alpha is lower at 7 - 14 hertz. Anything below that is the delta state, usually when you're in deep meditation or sleep. People who have trouble sleeping are usually in that beta state, which keeps processing information.  It's only in the delta state that your mind and body start the maintenance phase. This phase helps not only with mental healing but also physical recovery.  Learn more about Lisa and Dr Don's personal experiences with these brainwave states in the full episode!  [34:30] Mental Healing and Physical Recovery Starts with the Brain Recovery is about genetics and the environment. In sleep, your mind will always want to deal with the threats first. It can only get to the delta state once it finishes processing these dangers. Your risk for developing sickness and depression rises if your brain can't do maintenance. Living in the beta state will make it difficult to focus.  [41:40] It's Not Your Fault If you have a lot of trauma, you are predisposed to respond in a certain way. It's not your fault.  There's nothing wrong with your mind; you just experienced different things from others.  Dr Don likened this situation to two phones having a different number of applications running.  Predictably, the device that runs more applications will have its battery drained faster.  [44:05] Change How You Respond Working on traumas requires changing the associative and repetitive memory, which repeats responses to threats. You cannot change a pattern and get mental healing immediately—it will take time.  That's the reason why Dr Don's program has a 30-day recovery phase dedicated to changing your response pattern.  Patterns form because the subconscious mind sees them as a beneficial way of coping with traumas.  This function of your subconscious is how addictions form.  [47:04] Why We Can Be Irrational The subconscious lives only in the present. It does not see the future nor the past.  It will want to take actions that will stop the pain, even if the actions are not rational.  At its core, addiction is all about trying to stop the pain or other traumatic experiences.  Survival mode always overrides reason and logic because its priority is to protect you. [50:57] What to Do When You're in Survival State In this survival state, we're prone to movement or shutting down completely.  The brain can stop calling for emotions to protect you, and this is how depression develops.  When in a depressed state, start moving to initiate mental healing. Exercise helps burn through cortisol and adrenaline.  Once your mind realises there's no action required for the perceived threats, the depression will lift.   [53:24] Simple Actions Can Help There's nothing wrong with you.  Don't just treat the symptom; go straight to the issue.  Don't blame genetics or hormonal imbalances for finding it hard to get mental healing. Find out why.  Also, seek things that will balance out your hormones. These can be as simple as walking in nature, taking a break, and self-care.  [56:04] How to Find a Calming Symbol Find a symbol that will help you go back into the alpha brainwave state.  Lisa shares that her symbol is the sunset or sunrise, and this helps her calm down. Meanwhile, Dr Don's are his home and the hawk.  Having a symbol communicates to all parts of your brain that you're safe.  [59:58] The Power of Breathing  Stress may lead to irregular breathing patterns and increase your cortisol levels and blood sugar. Breathing exercises, like box breathing, can also help you calm down because the brain will take higher oxygen levels as a state of safety.  If you're running out of oxygen, your brain will think you're still in danger.  Make sure that you're breathing well. It's also better to do nasal breathing.    7 Powerful Quotes ‘The purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run.' ‘People who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying “Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.”' ‘I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse.' ‘There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that.' ‘That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life, and everything else.' ‘I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong.' ‘If there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic because it's designed to protect you.'   About Dr Don Dr Don Wood, PhD, is the CEO of The Inspired Performance Institute. Fueled by his family's experiences, he developed the cutting-edge neuroscience approach, TIPP. The program has produced impressive results and benefited individuals all over the world.  Dr Wood has helped trauma survivors achieve mental healing from the Boston Marathon bombing attack and the Las Vegas shooting. He has also helped highly successful executives and world-class athletes. Marko Cheseto, a double amputee marathon runner, broke the world record after completing TIPP. Meanwhile, Chris Nikic worked with Dr Wood and made world news by becoming the first person with Down Syndrome to finish an Ironman competition. Interested in Dr Don's work? Check out The Inspired Performance Institute. You can also reach him on Facebook and LinkedIn.    Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can learn steps to mental healing. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Transcript Of Podcast Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host Lisa Tamati, brought to you by lisatamati.com.  Lisa Tamati: Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have Dr Don Wood who, you may recognise that name if you listen to the podcast regularly. He was on the show maybe a couple of months ago, and he is the CEO and founder of The Inspired Performance Institute. He's a neuroscience guy, and he knows everything there is to know about dealing with trauma and how to get the mind back on track when you've been through big, horrible life events or some such thing. Now, when we talked last time, he shared with me his methodology, the work that he's done, how he can help people with things like addictions as well and depression, and just dealing with the stresses of life, whether they be small stressors or big stressors.  We got to talking about my situation and the stuff that I've been through in the last few years, which many of you listeners know, has been pretty traumatic. From losing babies, to losing my dad, to mom's journey. So I was very privileged and lucky to have Dr Don Wood actually invite me to do his program with him. We share today my stories, how I went with that, and he explains a little bit more in-depth the neuroscience behind it all and how it all works. So if you're someone who's dealing with stress, anxiety, PTSD, depression, if you want to understand how the brain works and how you can help yourself to deal with these sorts of things, then you must listen to the show. He's an absolutely lovely, wonderful person.  Now, before we get over to the show, I just love you all to do a couple of things for me. If you wouldn't mind doing a rating and review of the show on Apple, iTunes or wherever you listen to this, that would be fantastic. It helps the show get found. We also have a patron program, just a reminder if you want to check that out. Come and join the mission that we're on to bring this wonderful information to reach to people.  Also, we have our BOOSTCAMP program starting on the first of September 2021. If you listen to this later, we will be holding these on a regular basis so make sure you check it out. This is an eight-week live webinar series that my business partner, my best buddy, and longtime coach Neil Wagstaff and I will be running. It's more about upgrading your life and helping you perform better, helping you be your best that you can be, helping you understand your own biology, your own neuroscience, how your brain works, how your biology works. Lots of good information that's going to help you upgrade your life, live longer, be happier, reduce stress, and be able to deal with things when life is stressful. God knows we're all dealing with that. So I'd love you to come and check that out. You can go to peakwellness.co.nz/boostcamp.  I also want to remind you to check us out on Instagram. I'm quite active on Instagram. I have a couple of accounts there. We have one for the podcast that we've just started. We need a few more followers please on there. Go to @pushingthelimits for that one on Instagram, and then my main account is @lisatamati, if you want to check that one out. If you are a running fan, check us out on Instagram @runninghotcoaching and we're on Facebook under all of those as well. So @lisatamati, @pushingthelimits, and @runninghotcoaching.  The last thing before we go over to Dr Don Wood, reminder check out, too, our longevity and anti-aging supplement. We've joined forces with Dr Elena Seranova and have NMN which is nicotinamide mononucleotide, and this is really some of that cooler stuff in the anti-aging, and longevity space. If you want to check out the science behind that, we have a couple of podcasts with her. Check those out and also head on over to nmnbio.nz. Right. Over to the show with Dr Don Wood.  Hi, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. Today, I have a dear, dear friend again who's back on the show as a repeat offender, Dr Don Wood. Dr Don Wood: I didn't know I was a repeat offender. Oh, I'm in trouble. That's great.  Lisa: Repeat offender on the show. Dr Don, for those who don't know, was on the show. Dr Don is a trauma expert and a neuroscientist, and someone who understands how the brain works, and why we struggle with anxiety, and depression, and post-traumatic stress disorder. We did a deep dive last time, didn't we, into the program that you've developed. Since then, everyone, I have been through Dr Don's pro program. He kindly took me through it. Today, I want to unpack a little bit of my experiences on the other side, s the client, so to speak. Talk about what I went through.  Dr Don, so firstly, welcome to the show again. How's it all over in your neck of the woods? Dr Don: Well, it's awesome over here in Florida. COVID is basically non-existent. Oh, yeah. Well, in terms of the way people are treating it, that's for sure. Very few people you see in masks now, everything is pretty much wide open. You can't even get reservations at restaurants. It's unbelievable. The economy is exploding here. There's so much going on. Yeah, I know the rest of the country, a lot of different places are still struggling with whether they're going to put mask mandates back on and all this kind of stuff but Florida seems to be doing very well.  Lisa: Well, I'm very glad to hear that because any bit of good news in this scenario is good because this keeps coming and biting everybody in the bum.  Dr Don: I know. Especially down there. You guys are really experiencing quite severe lockdowns and things, right? Lisa: Yeah and Australia, more so. Australia has gone back into lockdown. I've got cousins in Sydney who are experiencing really hard times in Melbourne and we've stopped the trans-Tasman bubble at the moment. Trans-Tasman was open for business, so to speak, with Australians being able to come to New Zealand without quarantine, but it's been shut down again. So yeah, we're still struggling with it, and the economy is still struggling with it but actually, in our country, we've been very lucky that we've managed to keep it out because they've had such tight controls on the borders. But yes, it's a rocky road for everybody, and it's not over yet, I think. Dr Don: Looks like it's going to continue, and that's creating a lot of stress.  Lisa: Oh, yeah, perfect.  Dr Don: This is what I've said. I think we're coming up to a tsunami of mental health issues because a lot of people have gone into freeze mode as opposed to fight or flight. Some people are in fight or flight. You're hearing about that on airlines: people just losing it, and getting mad, and fighting with flight attendants and passengers, and you see a lot of that. But I think that's obviously not the majority. I think most people are in that mode of just get through this, do what they ask, don't cause any waves, and just get this over with. So that's a freeze mode, and I think when people come out of freeze, you're going to start to see some of these mental health issues.  Lisa: Yes, I totally agree and I'm very concerned about the young people. I think that being hit very hard especially in the places that have the hardest lockdowns. If you're going through puberty, or you're going through teenagehood, or even the younger kids, I think, they're going to be affected massively by this because it's going to be a big before and after sort of situation for them.  Dr Don: And just the social. When we were teenagers, social was everything, I suppose. Learning how to communicate, and talk, and get along with other people, and good and bad. There were always struggles in school with learning how to get along with everybody but that is just sort of squashed. It's going to be fascinating to see when they do a study on the real true results of this pandemic. It's going to be a lot different than many people think.  Lisa: Yes, and I think the longer you ignore stuff, is we're going to see it's not just the people are unfortunately dying and being very sick from the actual COVID, but the actual effects on society are going to be big. That's why talking about the topic that we're talking about today, dealing with anxiety, and dealing with stress, and being able to actually fix the problem instead of just managing the problem, which I know you're big on.  So let's dive in there, and let's recap a little bit. Just briefly go back over your story, how you got to here, and what your method sort of entails in a helicopter perspective. Dr Don: Yeah, basically how I developed this was really because of the life that my wife led first and my daughter. My wife grew up in a very traumatic household with a very angry father that created tremendous fear. So everybody was... Just constant tension in that household. When I met her, I just realised how this was so different than my life. My life was in the complete opposite: very nurturing, loving. So I didn't experience that. I thought when she started moving in and we got married at 19, we were very young, that this would all stop for her. Because now, she's living in my world, my environment, and it didn't.  She just kept continuing to feel this fear that something was going to go wrong and nothing is going to go right. She struggled with enjoying things that were going well. I would say to her, 'We've got three beautiful children. We've got a beautiful home. Everything's going pretty good; nothing's perfect. You have your ups and downs, but it's generally a pretty good life.' She couldn't enjoy that because as a child, whenever things were going okay, it would quickly end and it would end, sometimes violently. So the way she was protecting herself is don't get too excited when things are going well because you'll get this huge drop. So that was what she was doing to protect herself. I just had a lady come in here a couple months ago, who very famous athlete is her husband: millionaires, got fame, fortune, everything you want, but she had a lot of health issues because of trauma from her childhood. When I explained that to her, she said, 'That's me. Your wife is me. I should be enjoying this, and I can't get there. I want to. My husband can't understand it.' But that's really what was going on for her too. Lisa: So it's a protective mechanism, isn't it? To basically not get too relaxed and happy because you've got to be hyper-vigilant, and this is something that I've definitely struggled with my entire life. Not because I had a horrible childhood. I had a wonderful childhood but I was super sensitive. So from a genetic perspective, I'm super sensitive. I have a lot of adrenaline that makes me code for, for want of a better description, I'm very emotionally empathetic but it also makes me swung by emotional stimuli very much. So someone in my environment is unhappy, I am unhappy. I'm often anxious and upset. My mum telling me she took me to Bambi. You know the movie Bambi? From Disneyland? She had to take me out of theatre. I was in distraught.  That's basically me. Because Bambi's mother got killed, right? I couldn't handle that as a four-year-old, and I still can't handle things. Things like the news and stuff, I protect myself from that because I take everything on. It's even a problem and in our business service situations because I want to save the world. I very much take on my clients' issues. I'm still learning to shut gates afterwards, so to speak, when you're done working with someone so that you're not constantly... So there's a genetic component to this as well.  Dr Don: Absolutely. So yours was coming from a genetic side but that's very, very common amongst people who have had a traumatic childhood. They're super sensitive.  Lisa: Yes. Hyper-vigilant.  Dr Don: Hyper-vigilant. That was my wife. She was constantly looking for danger. We'd come out of the storage and go: 'Can you believe how rude that clerk was?' 'What do you mean she was rude? How was she rude?' ‘You see the way she answered that question when I asked that, and then the way she stuffed the clothes in the bag?' And I'm like, 'Wow.' I never saw her like that. She was looking for it because that's how she protected herself because she had to recognise when danger was coming. So it was protection, and I hadn't experienced that so that made no sense to me; it made perfect sense to her.  Lisa: Yeah, and if someone was rude to you, you would be just like, 'Well, that's their problem, not my problem, and I'm not taking it on.' Whereas for someone your wife and for me... I did have a dad who was  a real hard, tough man, like old-school tough. We were very much on tenterhooks so when they came home, whether he was in a good mood today or not in a good mood. He was a wonderful, loving father but there was that tension of wanting to please dad. Mum was very calm and stable, but Dad was sort of more volatile and just up and down. It was wonderful and fun and other times, you'd be gauging all of that before he even walked in the door. That just makes you very much hyper-vigilant to everything as well.  Then, you put on, on top of that, the genetic component. You've got things like your serotonin and your adrenaline. So I've got the problem with the adrenaline and a lack of dopamine. So I don't have dopamine receptors that stops me feeling satisfaction and... Well, not stops me but it limits my feeling of, 'Oh, I've done a good job today. I can relax.' Or of reward. And other people have problems, I don't have this one, but with a serotonin gene, which is they have dysregulation of their serotonin and that calm, and that sense of well-being and mood regulation is also up and down. While it's not a predisposition that you'll definitely going to have troubles because you can learn the tools to manage those neurotransmitters and things like nutrition and gut health and all that aspect. Because it's all a piece of that puzzle, but it's really just interesting, and it makes you much more understanding of people's differences.  Why does one person get completely overwhelmed in a very trivial situation versus someone else who could go into war and come back and they're fine? What is it that makes one person? Then you got the whole actual neuroscience circuitry stuff, which I find fascinating, what you do. Can you explain a little bit what goes on? Say let's just pick a traumatic experience: Someone's gone through some big major trauma. What is actually going on in the brain again? Can we explain this a little bit?  Dr Don: Yeah, this is one of the things that... When I did my research, I realised this is what's causing the dysregulation: is your subconscious your survival brain is fully present in the moment all the time. So everything in that part of our brain is operating in the present. which is what is supposed to be, right? They say that that's the key, that success and happiness is live in the present. Well, your survival brain does that. The problem comes in is that only humans store explicit details about events and experiences. So everything you've seen, heard, smelled, and touched in your lifetime has been recorded and stored in this tremendous memory system. Explicit memory.  Animals have procedural memory or associative memory. We have that memory system too. So we have both. They only have procedural, associative. So they learn through repetition, and they learn to associate you with safety and love, but they don't store the details about it. But we store all the details about these events and experiences. So this is where this glitch is coming in. If you've got the survival brain, which is 95% of everything that's going on, operating in the present, accessing data from something that happened 10 years ago because something looks like, sounds like, smells like it again, it's creating a response to something that's not happening. It's looking at old data and creating a physiological response to it, and the purpose of an emotion is a call for an action. So the purpose of fear is to run, to escape a threat. But there's no threat. It's just information about the threat. That disrupts your nervous system and then that creates a cascade of chemical reactions in your body because your mind thinks there's an action required. Lisa: This is at the crux of the whole system really, isn't it? This is this call for action to fix a problem that is in the past that cannot be fixed in the now. So if we can dive a little bit into my story, and I'm quite open on the show. I'm sharing the good, the bad, and the ugly. When I was working with Dr Don, I've been through a very, very traumatic few years really. Lost my dad, first and foremost, last July, which was the biggest trauma of my life. And it was a very difficult process that we went through before he died as well. And there's a lift, as you can imagine, my brain in a state of every night nightmares, fighting for his life, he's dying over, and over, and over, and over again.  Those memories are intruding into my daily life, whereas in anything and at any time, I could be triggered and be in a bawling state in the middle of the car park or the supermarket. Because something's triggered me that Dad liked to to buy or Dad, whatever the case was, and this was becoming... It's now a year after the event but everything was triggering me constantly. Of course, this is draining the life out of you and interfering with your ability to give focus to your business, to your family, to your friends, every other part of your life. I'd also been through the trauma of bringing Mum back from that mess of aneurysm that everyone knows about. The constant vigilance that is associated with bringing someone back and who is that far gone to where she is now, and the constant fear of her slipping backwards, and me missing something, especially in light of what I'd been through with my father. So I'd missed some things, obviously. That's why he ended up in that position and through his own choices as well.  But this load, and then losing a baby as well in the middle, baby Joseph. There was just a hell of a lot to deal with in the last five years. Then, put on top of it, this genetic combination of a hot mess you got sitting before you and you've got a whole lot of trauma to get through. So when we did the process, and I was very, super excited to do this process because it was so intrusive into my life, and I realised that I was slowly killing myself because I wasn't able to stop that process from taking over my life. I could function. I was highly functional. No one would know in a daily setting, but only because I've got enough tools to keep my shit together. so to speak. But behind closed doors, there's a lot of trauma going on.  So can you sort of, just in a high level, we don't want to go into the details. This is a four-hour program that I went through with Dr Don. What was going on there. and what did you actually help me with?  Dr Don: So when you're describing those things that were happening to you, what was actually happening to your mind is it was not okay with any of that. It wanted it to be different, right? So it was trying to get you into a state of action to stop your father from dying: Do it differently. Because it kept reviewing the data. It was almost looking at game tape from a game and saying 'Oh, had we maybe run the play that way, we would have avoided the tackle here.' So what your mind was saying 'Okay, run that way.' Well, you can't run that way. This is game tape. Right? But your mind doesn't see it as game tape. It sees it as real now, so it's run that way. So it keeps calling you into an action.  And especially with your dad because you were thinking about, 'Why didn't I do this?' Or 'Had I just done this, maybe this would have happened.' What your mind was saying is, 'Okay, let's do it. Let's do that.' What you just thought about. But you can't do that. It doesn't exist. It's information about something that happened but your mind sees it as real. That's why Hollywood have made trillions of dollars because they can convince you something on the screen is actually happening. That's why we cry in a movie or that's why we get scared in a movie. Because your mind, your subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real or imagined. So that's actually happening.  You were just talking about the movie with Bambi, right? When you were little. 'Why is nobody stopping this from happening?' So your mind was not okay with a lot of these things that were happening, and it kept calling you to make a difference. That's what I never understood my wife doing. That before I really researched this, my wife would always be saying, 'Don't you wish this hadn't have happened?' Or 'Don't you wish we hadn't done this?' What I didn't understand at the time, because I used to just get like, 'Okay, whatever.' She'd go, 'Yeah, but wouldn't it have been better?' She wanted to get me into this play with her, this exercise. Lisa: This is going on in her head. Dr Don: Because it's going on in her head, and she's trying to feel better. So she's creating these scenarios that would make her feel like, 'Well, if I had just done that, gosh that would have been nice, thinking about that life.' And her mind seeing that going, 'Oh, that would be nice. Well, let's do that. Yes.' So she was what if-ing her life. And it was something that she did very early as a child because that's how she just experienced something traumatic with her father. In her mind, she'd be going, 'Well, what if I had to just left 10 minutes earlier, and I had have escaped that?' Or 'What if I hadn't done this?' So that's what she was doing. It made no sense to me because I hadn't experienced her life, but that's what she was doing. Her mind was trying to fix something. It's never tried to hurt you. It was never, at any point, trying to make you feel bad. It was trying to protect you. Lisa: Its job is to protect you from danger and it sees everything as you sit in the now so it's happening now. I love that analogy of these... What was it? Two-thirds of the car or something and... Dr Don: So goat and snowflake? Lisa: Goat and snowflake. And they're going off to a meeting and they're late. And what does the goat says to snowflake or the other way around? Dr Don: So snowflake, which is your conscious mind, your logical reasonable part of your mind, there's only 5, says the goat 95%, which is your subconscious mind. Who runs into a traffic jam says, 'Oh, we're going to be late. We should have left 15 minutes earlier.' To which goat replies 'Okay, let's do it. Let's leave 15 minutes earlier because that would solve the problem.'  Lisa: That analogy is stuck in my head because you just cannot... It doesn't know that it's too late and you can't hop into the past because it only lives in the now. This is 95% of how our brain operates. That's why we can do things like, I was walking, I was at a strategy meeting in Auckland with my business partner two days ago. We were walking along the road and he suddenly tripped and fell onto the road, right? My subconscious reacted so fast, I grabbed him right, and punched him in the guts. I didn't mean to do that but my subconscious recognised in a millimeter of a second, millionth of a second, that he was falling and I had to stop him. So this is a good side of the survival network: stopping and falling into the traffic or onto the ground.  But the downside of it is that brain is operating only in the now and it can't... Like with my father, it was going 'Save him. Save him. Save him. Why are you not saving him?' Then that's calling for an action, and then my body is agitated. The cortisol level's up. The adrenaline is up, and I'm trying to do something that's impossible to fix. That can drive you to absolute insanity when that's happening every hour, every day. Dr Don: Then that's taking a physical toll on your body because it's activating your nervous system, which is now, the cortisol levels are going up, adrenaline, right? So when your mind is in that constant state, it does very little on maintenance. It is not worried about fixing anything; it's worried about escaping or fixing the threat, because that's the number one priority.  Lisa: It doesn't know that it's not happening. I ended up with shingles for two months. I've only just gotten over it a few weeks ago. That's a definite sign of my body's, my immune system is down. Why is it down? Why can that virus that's been sitting dormant in my body for 40-something years suddenly decide now to come out? Because it's just becoming too much. I've spent too long in the fight or flight state and then your immune system is down. This is how we end up really ill.  Dr Don: We get sick. I was just actually having lunch today with a young lady and she's got some immune system issues. And I said, 'Think about it like the US Army, US military is the biggest, strongest military in the world. But if you took that military and you spread it out amongst 50 countries around the world fighting battles, and then somebody attacks the United States, I don't care how big and strong that system was, that military system was. It's going to be weakened when it gets an attack at the homefront.' So that's what was happening. So all of a sudden, now that virus that it could fight and keep dormant, it lets it pass by because it's like, 'Well, we can let that go. We'll catch that later. Right now, we got to go on the offensive and attack something else.' Lisa: Yeah, and this is where autoimmune, like your daughter experienced... Dr Don: About the Crohn's? Yep.  Lisa: Yep. She experienced that at 13 or something ridiculous? Dr Don: 14, she got it. Then she also got idiopathic pulmonary hemosiderosis which is another lung autoimmune disorder where the iron in the blood would just cause the lungs to release the blood. So her lungs just starts filling up with blood. They had no idea what caused it, that's the idiopathic part of it, and they just basically said, ‘There's no cure. She just needs to live close to a hospital because she'll bleed out if she has another attack.' Only 1 in 1.2 million people ever get that. So it's very rare so there's no research being done for it. They just basically say, ‘If you get it, live close to a hospital.' That's the strategy. Lisa: That's the way of fixing it.  Dr Don: And so both of those are autoimmune, and ever since we've gone to the program, she's hasn't had a flare-up of either one of those. Because I think our system is directly now able to address those things.  Lisa: Yeah, and can calm down. I think even people who haven't got post-traumatic stress like I've had or whatever, they've still got the day to day grind of life, and the struggle with finances, and the mortgage to be paid, and the kids to feed, and whatever dramas we're all going through. Like we talked about with COVID and this constant change that society is undergoing, and that's going to get faster and more. So this is something that we all need to be wary of: That we're not in this. I've taught and learned a lot about the coping and managing strategies, the breathing techniques, and meditation, the things, and that's what's kept me, probably, going. Dr Don: Those are great because they're... Again, that's managing it but it's good to have that because you've got to get to the root of it, which is what we were working on. But at the same time, if you don't have any coping, managing skills, life gets very difficult. Lisa: Yeah, and this is in-the-moment, everyday things that I can do to help manage the stress levels, and this is definitely something you want to talk about as well. So with me, we went through this process, and we did... For starters, you had to get my brain into a relaxed state, and it took quite a long time to get my brainwaves into a different place. So what were we doing there? How does that work with the brainwave stuff?  Dr Don: Well, when we have a traumatic event or memory, that has been stored in a very high-resolution state. So in a beta brainwave state because all your senses are heightened: sight, smell, hearing. So it's recording that and storing it in memory in a very intense state. So if I sat down with you and said, 'Okay, let's get this fixed.' And I just started trying to work directly on that memory, you're still going to be in a very high agitated state because we're going to be starting to talk about this memory. So you're going to be in a beta brainwave state trying to recalibrate a beta stored memory. That's going to be very difficult to do.  So what we do is, and that's why I use the four hours because within that first an hour and a half to two hours, we're basically communicating with the subconscious part of the brain by telling stories, symbols with metaphors, goat and snowflake, all the stories, all the metaphors that are built-in because then your brain moves into an alpha state. When it's in alpha, that's where it does restoration. So it's very prepared to start restoring. And then, if you remember, by the time we got to a couple of the traumatic memories, we only work on them for two or three minutes. Because you're in alpha, and so you've got this higher state of beta, and it recalibrates it into the same state that it's in. So if it's in alpha, it can take a beta memory, reprocess it in alpha, takes all the intensity out of it.  Lisa: So these brain waves, these beta states, just to briefly let people know, so this is speed, and correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the speed at which the brain waves are coming out. So in beta, like you'd see on ECG or something, it's sort of really fast. I think there's a 40 day... Dr Don: It's 15 to 30 hertz. Lisa: 15 to 30 hertz and then if you're in alpha, it's a lot lower than that? Dr Don: 7 to 14. Lisa: 7 to 14, and then below that is sort of when you're going into the sleep phase, either deep meditative or asleep. Dr Don: You're dreaming. Because what it's doing in dreaming is processing. So you're between 4 and 7 hertz. That's why people who have a lot of trauma have trouble sleeping. Because not only is their mind processing what it experienced during the day, it's also taking some of those old files saying, 'Well, okay, let's fix that now. Right. Let's get that.' That's where your nightmares are coming from. It was trying to get you into a processing to fix that. but it couldn't fix it. So it continues, and then when you go below 4 hertz, you go into delta. Delta is dreamless sleep and that's where the maintenance is getting done.  Lisa: That's the physical maintenance side more than the... Dr Don: Physical maintenance. Yeah, because that's not processing what it experienced anymore. What it's really now doing is saying, 'Okay, what are the issues that need to be dealt with?' So if you're very relaxed and you've had a very... Like me, right? I played hockey, so I had six concussions, 60 stitches, and never missed a hockey game. The only reason now that I understand I could do that is because I'm getting two or three times more Delta sleep than my teammates were. Lisa: Physical recuperative sleep.  Dr Don: Yeah, I was getting maximum restorative sleep. So an injury that I would have that could heal in two or three days, my teammates would two or three weeks. Because they were living in these, which I didn't know, a lot of my friends were dealing with trauma: physical, emotional, sexual abuse. I didn't know that was going on with my friends. Nobody talked about it. I didn't see it in their homes, but they were all dealing with that.  Lisa: So they are not able to get... So look, I've noticed since I've been through the program. My sleep is much better, and sometimes I still occasionally dream about Dad. But the positive dreams, if that makes sense. They're more Dad as he as he was in life and I actually think Dad's come to visit me and say, ‘Hi, give me a hug' rather than the traumatic last days and hours of his life, which was the ones that were coming in before and calling for that action and stopping me from having that restorative sleep.  I just did a podcast with Dr Kirk Parsley who's a sleep expert, ex-Navy SEAL and a sleep expert that's coming out shortly. Or I think by this time, it will be out, and understanding the importance, the super importance of both the delta and... What is the other one? The theta wave of sleep patterns, and what they do, and why you need both, and what parts of night do what, and just realising...Crikey, anybody who is going through trauma isn't experiencing sleep is actually this vicious cycle downwards. Because then, you've got more of the beta brainwave state, and you've got more of the stresses, and you're much less resilient when you can't sleep. You're going to... have health issues, and brain issues, and memory, and everything's going to go down south, basically.  Dr Don: That's why I didn't understand at the time. They just said 'Well, you're just super healthy. You heal really fast.' They had no other explanation for it. Now, I know exactly why. But it had nothing to do with my genetics. It had to do with my environment. Lisa: Just interrupting the program briefly to let you know that we have a new patron program for the podcast. Now, if you enjoy Pushing the Limits if you get great value out of it, we would love you to come and join our patron membership program. We've been doing this now for five and a half years and we need your help to keep it on here. It's been a public service free for everybody, and we want to keep it that way but to do that, we need like-minded souls who are on this mission with us to help us out. So if you're interested in becoming a patron for Pushing the Limits podcast, then check out everything on patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron.lisatamati.com.  We have two patron levels to choose from. You can do it for as little as 7 dollars a month, New Zealand or 15 dollars a month if you really want to support us. So we are grateful if you do. There are so many membership benefits you're going to get if you join us. Everything from workbooks for all the podcasts, the strength guide for runners, the power to vote on future episodes, webinars that we're going to be holding, all of my documentaries, and much, much more. So check out all the details: patron.lisatamati.com, and thanks very much for joining us.  Dr Don: That's, at the time, we just thought it was all, must have been genetics. But I realised now that it was environment as well. So maybe a genetic component to it as well, but then you take that and put that into this very beautiful, nurturing environment, I'm going to sleep processing in beta what I experienced that day and then my mind basically, at that point, is 'What do we need to work on? Not much. Let's go. Let's start now doing some maintenance.' Because it wants to address the top of item stuff first. What is it needs to be taken care of right now? Right? Those are the threats.  Once it gets the threats processed, then it can then start working on the things that are going to be the more long-term maintenance. So then it'll do that. But if it never gets out of that threat mode, it gets out for very little time. Then, if you're getting 30 minutes of delta sleep at night and I'm getting two hours, it's a no-brainer to figure out why I would heal faster.  Lisa: Absolutely, and this is independent of age and things because you've got all that that comes into it as well. Your whole chemistry changes as you get older and all this. There's other compounding issues as it gets more and more important that you get these pieces of the puzzle right.  Do you think that this is what leads to a lot of disease, cancers, and things like that as well? There's probably not one reason. There's a multitude of reasons, but it's definitely one that we can influence. So it's worth looking at it if you've got trauma in your life. People were saying to me 'Oh my God, you don't look good.' When you start hearing that from your friends, your people coming up to you and going, 'I can feel that you're not right.' People that are sensitive to you and know you very well, and you start hearing that over and over, and you start to think, 'Shit, something's got real. Maybe I need to start looking at this.'  Because it's just taking all your energy your way, isn't it, on so many levels. The restorative side and the ability to function in your life, and your work, and all of that, and that, of course, leads into depressive thoughts and that hyper-vigilant state constantly. That's really tiresome rather than being just chill, relax, enjoying life, and being able to... Like one of the things I love in my life is this podcast because I just get into such a flow state when I'm learning from such brilliant... Dr Don: You're in alpha. Lisa: I am. I am on it because this is, 'Oh. That's how that works.' And I just get into this lovely learning in an alpha state with people because I'm just so excited and curious. This is what I need to be doing more of. And less of the, if you'd see me half an hour ago trying to work out the technology. That's definitely not an alpha state for me. Dr Don: That's where they said Albert Einstein lived. Albert Einstein lived in alpha brainwave state. That's why information just float for him because there was no stress. He could then pull information very easily to float into. But if you're in a high beta brainwave state, there's too much activity. It has trouble focusing on anything because it's multiple threats on multiple fronts. So when we have a traumatic event, that's how it's being recorded. If you remember, what we talked about was there's a 400 of a millionth of a second gap in between your subconscious mind seeing the information and it going to your consciousness. So in 400 millionths of a second, your subconscious mind has already started a response into an action even though your conscious mind is not even aware of it yet.  Lisa: Yeah. Exactly what I did with rescuing my partner with the glass falling off the thing. I hadn't reached that logically. Dr Don: It's funny because that's one of the things that I talked about ,which is sort of, give us all a little bit of grace. Because if you've had a lot of trauma, you're going to respond a certain way. How could you not? If your mind's filtering into all of that, of course you're going to respond with that kind of a response because your mind is prone to go into that action very, very quickly. So we can give ourselves a little bit of grace in understanding that of course, you're going to do that, right? And not beat ourselves up.  Because you know what I talked about with everybody, there's nothing wrong with anybody. There's nothing wrong with anybody's mind. Everybody's mind is fine except you are experiencing something different than I experienced so your mind kept responding to it, and mine didn't have that. So you had multiple... Think about we have a hundred percent of our energy on our phone when we wake up in the morning, right? Fully powered up. You fire the phone up and eight programs open up, right? And mine has one.  Lisa: Yeah. You're just focusing on what you need to. Dr Don: Then noon comes, and you're having to plug your phone back in because you're out of energy.  Lisa: That's a perfect analogy. You're just burning the battery. My all is a hundred windows open in the back of my brain that is just processing all these things and so now, I can start to heal. So having gone through this process with you, like you said, we worked on a number of traumatic experiences, and I went through them in my mind. And then you did certain things, made me follow with my eyes and track here, and my eyes did this, and then, we pulled my attention out in the middle of the story and things. That helped me stay in that alpha state, brainwave state as I probably now understand while I'm still reliving the experience. That's sort of taking the colour out of it so that it's now sort of in a black and white folder. Now, it can still be shared, and it hasn't taken away the sadness of... Dr Don: Because it is sad that these things happen but that's not the response for an action which is that fear or anger, right? That dysregulation of the nervous system. That's what we want to stop, because that is what is going to affect health, enjoyment of life and everything else.  Lisa: Wow, this is so powerful. Yeah, and it's been very, very beneficial for me and helped me deal. For me, it also unfolded. Because after the four hour period with you, I had audiotapes and things that are meditations to do every day for the next 30 days. What were we doing in that phase of the recovery? What were you targeting in those sort of sessions?  Dr Don: So if you remember what we talked about, we have two memory systems. The explicit memory is what we worked on on that four hours. That's detail, events, and experiences. Once we get the mind processing through that, then we have to work on the same memory animals have, which is that associative repetitive memory. So you've built a series of codes on how to respond to threats, and that has come in over repetition and associations. So the audios are designed to start getting you now to build some new neural pathways, some new ways to respond because your mind won't switch a pattern instantly. It can switch a memory instantly, but a pattern is something that got built over a period of time. So it's like a computer. If I'm coding on my computer, I can't take one key to stop that code. I have to write a new code. Yeah, so what we're doing over the 30 days is writing new code. Lisa: Helping me make new routines and new habits around new neural pathways, basically.  Dr Don: You don't have that explicit memory interfering with the pathways. Because now, it's not constantly pulling you out, going back into an action call. It's basically now able to look at this information and these codes that got built and say, 'Okay, what's a better way? So do we have a better way of doing it?' Or 'Show me that code. Write that code.' If that code looks safer, then your mind will adopt that new code. Lisa: This is why, I think for me, there was an initial, there was definitely... Like the nightmares stopped, the intrusive every minute, hour triggering stopped, but the process over the time and the next... And I'm still doing a lot of the things and the meditations. It's reinforcing new habit building. This is where... Like for people dealing with addictions, this is the path for them as well, isn't it?  Dr Don: Yeah. Because I talked about addiction as a code. I don't believe it's a disease. Your mind has found a resource to stop pains, and your subconscious mind is literal. It doesn't see things as good or bad, or right or wrong. It's literal. 'Did that stop the pain? Let's do that.' Because it's trying to protect you. So if you've now repeated it over and over, not only have you stopped the pain, but you've built an association with a substance that is seen as beneficial. Lisa: Because your brain sees it as medicine when you're taking, I don't know, cocaine or something. It sees it as essential to your life even though you, on a logical level, know that, ‘This is destroying me and it's a bad thing for me.' Your subconscious goes, 'No, this is a good thing and I need it right now.' Dr Don: Because it's in the present, when does it want the pain to stop? Now. So it has no ability to see a future or a past. Your subconscious is in the moment. So if you take cocaine, the logical part of your brain goes, 'Oh, this is going to create problems for me. I'm going to become addicted.' Right? Your subconscious goes, ‘Well, the pain stopped. We don't see that as a bad thing.' I always use the analogy: Why did people jump out of the buildings at 911? They weren't jumping to die. They were jumping to live because when would they die? Now, if they jump, would they die? No. They stopped the death. So even jumping, which logically makes no sense, right? But to the subconscious mind, it was going to stop the pain now.  Lisa: Yeah, and even if it was two seconds in the future that they would die, your brain is going...  Dr Don: It doesn't even know what two seconds are.  Lisa: No. It has no time. Isn't it fascinating that we don't have a time memory or understanding in that part of the brain that runs 95% of the ship?  Dr Don: It's like what Albert Einstein said, ‘There's no such thing as time.' So it's like an animal. If an animal could communicate and you say, 'What time is it?' That would make no sense to an animal. 'What do you mean? It's now.' 'What time is it now?' 'Now. Exactly.' Lisa: It's a construct that we've made to... Dr Don: Just to explain a lot of stuff, right? When something happens.  Lisa: Yeah, and this is quite freeing when you think of it. But it does make a heck of a lot of sense. So people are not being destructive when they become drug addicts or addicted to nicotine, or coffee, or chocolate. They're actually trying to stop the pain that they're experiencing in some other place and fix things now. Even though the logical brain... Because the logical brain is such a tiny... Like this is the last part of our evolution, and it's not as fully...  We can do incredible things with it at 5%. We've made the world that we live in, and we're sitting here on Zoom, and we've got incredible powers. But it's all about the imagination, being able to think into the future, into the past, and to make correlations, and to recognise patterns. That's where all our creativity and everything, or not just creativity, but our ability to analyse and put forth stuff into the world is happening. But in actual, we're still like the animals and the rest of it. We're still running at 95%, and that's where we can run into the problems with these two.  Dr Don: Because you got two systems. You got a very advanced system operating within a very primitive system, and it hasn't integrated. It's still integrating, right? So if there's a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic, because it's designed to protect you. So there's no reason and logic that will come in if there's a survival threat. It's just going to respond the way it knows, does this Google search, 'What do we know about this threat? How do we know to protect ourselves, and we'll go instantly into survival mode.' Again, there's the reason and logic. Why would you jump out of a building, right? If you applied reason and logic, you wouldn't have jumped, right? People will say, 'Well, but they still jumped.' Yes, because reason and logic didn't even come into the process. It was all about survival.  Lisa: Yeah. When the fire is coming in it was either... Dr Don: 'Am I going to die out now or I'm going to move and not die now?'  Lisa: Yeah, and we're also prone to movement when we're in agitation and in an agitated state, aren't we? Basically, all of the blood and the muscles saying, 'Run, fight, do something. Take action.' Dr Don: That's why when people get into depression, it's the absence of those emotions.  Lisa: Yeah, and people feel exhaustion.  Dr Don: Yeah. The mind kept calling for an action using anger, for example, but you can't do the action because it's not happening, so it shuts down to protect you and stops calling for any emotion, and that's depression. So the key to get out of depression is actions. It's to get something happening. So in a lot of people who are depressed, what do I tell them to do? 'Start moving. Start exercising. Get out. Start doing things.' Right?  Lisa: So I run ultras. Dr Don: Exactly. Perfect example, right?  Lisa: Yeah, because I was. I was dealing with a lot of shit in my life at the time when I started doing ultra-marathons. To run was to quiet the pain and to run was to be able to cope and to have that meditative space in order to work through the stuff that was going on in my life. And I know even in my husband's life, when he went through a difficult time, that's when he started running. So running can be a very powerful therapeutic, because there is a movement, and you're actually burning through the cortisol and the adrenaline that's pouring around in your body. Therefore, sitting still and that sort of things was just not an option for me. I had to move. And it explains what, really. It's calling the movement. Like it was a movement because I couldn't fix the other thing.  Dr Don: That's what they'll tell you to do. To get out of depression is to move. What I say is the way to get out of depression is to get your mind to resolve what it's been asking for. Lisa: It's going a little deeper.  Dr Don: Yeah. So it's going down and saying, 'Okay, why has it been getting you angry and now, it shut down from the anger?' Because it's been trying to get you in your situation. 'Don't let Dad die. Don't let this happen.' Right? So because you couldn't do it, it just shuts down. Makes perfect sense but when we get to the resolution that there is no action required, there's no need for the depression anymore. The depression will lift because there's no more call for an action.  Lisa: I can feel that in me, that call. Anytime that anything does still pop up, I sort of acknowledge the feeling and say, 'There is no call for action here. This is in the past. This is a memory.' So I do remind myself that when things do still pop up from time to time now, as opposed to hourly. I go, 'Hey, come back into the now. This is the now. That was the then that's calling for an action. This is why you're doing thing.' Even that understanding

There's a stigma associated with unresolved trauma. Many people don't talk about their traumatic experiences. Unfortunately, we're only taught short-term solutions like coping with stress and managing our emotions. With these short-term solutions, the root cause remains unresolved. The trauma is still present and can affect our everyday lives. In this episode, Dr Don Wood joins us to talk about how unresolved trauma can directly affect our health. He aims to remove the stigma around unresolved trauma, and the first step towards healing is understanding the pain we've gone through. He also talks about the power of our minds from the different stories of his past patients.  Tune in to this episode if you want to learn more about how unresolved trauma can affect your health and life.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/.   Customised Online Coaching for Runners CUSTOMISED RUN COACHING PLANS — How to Run Faster, Be Stronger, Run Longer  Without Burnout & Injuries Have you struggled to fit in training in your busy life? Maybe you don't know where to start, or perhaps you have done a few races but keep having motivation or injury troubles? Do you want to beat last year's time or finish at the front of the pack? Want to run your first 5-km or run a 100-miler? ​​Do you want a holistic programme that is personalised & customised to your ability, your goals and your lifestyle?  Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Health Optimisation and Life Coaching If you are struggling with a health issue and need people who look outside the square and are connected to some of the greatest science and health minds in the world, then reach out to us at support@lisatamati.com, we can jump on a call to see if we are a good fit for you. If you have a big challenge ahead, are dealing with adversity or are wanting to take your performance to the next level and want to learn how to increase your mental toughness, emotional resilience, foundational health and more, then contact us at support@lisatamati.com. Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books/products/relentless. 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Manufactured in an ISO9001 certified facility Boost Your NAD+ Levels — Healthy Ageing: Redefined Cellular Health Energy & Focus Bone Density Skin Elasticity DNA Repair Cardiovascular Health Brain Health  Metabolic Health   My  ‘Fierce' Sports Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce', go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Learn how unresolved trauma can affect your life and compromise your health. Discover Dr Don's alternative ways of how he sees addiction. Understand the power of our minds and how it can do anything to protect us from feeling pain.   Resources Gain exclusive access and bonuses to Pushing the Limits Podcast by becoming a patron! You can choose between being an official or VIP patron for $7 and $15 NZD per month, respectively. Harness the power of NAD and NMN for anti-ageing and longevity with NMN Bio. More Pushing the Limits Episodes: 183: Sirtuins and NAD Supplements for Longevity with Elena Seranova 189: Increasing Your Longevity with Elena Seranova Connect with Dr Don Wood: Facebook Inspired Performance Institute – Learn more about Dr Don's books and the courses they're offering by going to their website. The Unbeatable Mind Podcast: How to Deal with Trauma with Dr Don Wood Brain Wash: Detox Your Mind for Clearer Thinking, Deeper Relationships, and Lasting Happiness by David and Austin Perlmutter  Emotional Concussions: Understanding How Our Nervous System is Affected by Events and Experiences Throughout Our Life  by Dr Donald Wood   Episode Highlights [05:32] What Inspired Dr Don to Start His Career Dr Don founded the Inspire Performance Institute because of his wife and daughter.  Dr Don shares that he had a quiet and idyllic childhood. He didn't experience any trauma. His wife had a rough childhood which contributed largely to the unresolved trauma and fear she lives with today. His daughter also inspired his research. She was diagnosed with Crohn's disease at 14.  [11:10] Dr Don Shares About His Childhood He remembers he used to get bad stomach pains when he was young. They would go to their family doctor for a checkup. His grandfather mentioned that he has stomach pains because of the stress at home. Later on, Dr Don realised that he felt the pressure in their home. The stress from this manifested as stomach pains. [15:00] Impact of Unresolved Trauma in Later Life Dr Don believes that unresolved trauma creates inflammation in the body. It compromises a person's immune system and neurotransmitters.  A person gets sick and starts feeling bad because of serotonin neurotransmitters. They are affected by our guts' inflammation. Unfortunately, the only things taught to us are managing and coping with the stress. We do not get to the root cause of the problem.  [18:10] Dr Don's Career Before Inspired Performance Institute Dr Don has been an entrepreneur all his life. Before he founded Inspired Performance Institute, he was in financial services.  He realised that committing to Inspired Performance Institute meant studying again.  To add credibility to his name, he went back to school and got his Ph.D. [20:31] What Causes Addiction Dr Don doesn't believe that addiction is caused by physical dependency. It's more about how the mind connected using drugs and survival.  Because people feel bad, they find a way to stop the pain and feel better temporarily. Most of them find it in using drugs.  The subconscious mind tries to find a way to feel better. The conscious mind builds a habit based on it. The interaction between these two memory systems is a factor in developing addictions. [25:39] Subconscious and Conscious Mind 95% of our mind works on the subconscious survival base. The remaining 5% is concerned with logic and reason. The 5% uses reason and logic to make brilliant things in life. However, when survival needs arise, the part dedicated to survival overrides the other. To learn more about Dr Don's analysis of the Time Slice Theory and how it's connected to how we respond to our day-to-day lives, listen to the full episode. [35:08] Effects of Brain Injuries on Brain Response People with repeated brain injuries might have problems with logical and survival thinking responses. Brain injury patients have lower blood flow in the frontal part when faced with survival situations based on brain scans.  [36:03] Available Help for People Who Have Brain Injuries Dr Don's son had three head injuries since he was young. The third one affected his communication skills and emotions.  He believes that his son has functional damage to his brain. Once they discovered that, they got him into hyperbaric oxygen therapy.  He started getting his blood flow into the areas of his brain that process his experiences.   [40:18] Probable Use of fMRI Dr Don shares that fMRI can be another procedure that can help people with brain injuries.  fMRI can detect abnormalities in your brain that other methods may not pick up. [42:26] The Story of Dr Don's Daughter His daughter was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. It affected her career as an actress.  His daughter's condition made him realise: inflammation responds to unresolved trauma. They managed to resolve her unresolved trauma that happened when she was six years old. Her mind understood that, and her negative response stopped.  [46:01] Talking About Depression In cases of depression, the person's mind puts pressure on them to do something in the past.  Depression then becomes the absence of emotion. It tries to numb you from the stress in your mind. When they get to the cause of what their mind needs and resolves it, their depression eases.  [48:02] Story of Rebecca Gregory Rebecca was a victim of the Boston Marathon bombing. She came to seek help from Dr Don five years ago. She has PTSD. Dr Don helped her realise the connection between her response to daily life and the memory she has. To know more about the process on how Dr Don helped Rebecca tune in to the full episode. [51:43] Similarities of Dr Don's Approach to EMDR Dr Don shared that he also studied EMDr In his practice, he used some of the techniques in EMDr He enhanced them to become quicker and more comprehensive.  Unlike EMDR, Dr Don's approach is faster and more straightforward. The patient can choose which way they would like to do it.  [54:36] Dr Don on Talk Therapies He believes that talk therapy is good. You must deal with a current problem. They aim to resolve the old issues that aggravate the new experiences.  [56:22] How Dr Don's Program Helped His Daughter Crohn's disease is incurable. However, since his daughter underwent their program, her Crohn's didn't flare-up. He believes his daughter's body has more energy to do maintenance and repair issues. It's possible because her unresolved trauma has been resolved.  [56:22] How Stress Connects to Our Other Unresolved Traumas The daily stress that we encounter every day might pile up and affect us in the long run. They might also connect and add up to our trauma, making it harder for us to cope. We misinterpreted experiences when we were young that still affect us as we grow older. Dr Don shares stories of how unresolved childhood experiences may affect a person as they grow up. [01:08:15] People Have Different Filters Dr Don says that people have different atmospheric conditions they grew up in. These factors affect how they filter and deal with their everyday experiences.  Our brain acts as the filter, and all of our experiences pass through that filter. The differences in how we operate upon those experiences are based on them.  Dr Don proceeds to share different stories of his patients regarding the differences in people's minds.  [01:15:06] Dr Don on Smoking  Dr Don says that smokers are not addicted to nicotine. They need the sensation of feeling better. The mind of a smoker associates feeling better to smoking. This link causes addiction.  You can break the habit by introducing a new, healthier factor. [01:19:17] A Better Approach Towards Addiction Many approaches to addiction make the person feel useless. They surrender to never getting better. Dr Don pushes a system that empowers people. He makes them realise they can overcome their addiction by understanding the cause.  [01:24:42] How the Mind Reacts to Pain Dr Don shares that the mind is powerful enough. It will do anything for you to stop feeling pain.  People who commit suicide act in desperation to stop the pain they're feeling.  He shares the story of the German sniper. It can represent the power of the mind in reaction to pain.   7 Powerful Quotes  ‘I really started the Inspired Performance Institute because of my wife and daughter more. Mostly my daughter than anything else.' ‘So if I had been a little frustrated with something that worked that day, or is, you know, some other thing that was nothing related to her, she could pick up on that tone change. And then, in her mind, what her mind would be doing is saying, “What do we know about men when they start to get angry?” And a whole bunch of data and information about her father would come flooding in and overstimulate her nervous system.' ‘And so when my daughter was 14, she was diagnosed with Crohn's. And they just told us that you just kind of have to, you know, learn to live with this.' ‘And that's really what led me to develop the program, is I realised that when my daughter was 16, she disclosed to us some sexual abuse that she had had when she was like six years of age that we had no idea. So my wife was, obviously both of us were devastated, but my wife was extremely, she had experienced, you know, sexual abuse as a child and thought she would never let that happen to her child.' ‘How could the body crave a substance that it doesn't know? It doesn't regulate heroin. How could it crave something that doesn't regulate? I believe it's the mind has made a connection between the heroin and survival.' ‘What's happened is your mind has been calling for an action for many, many years, that was impossible to accomplish. But your mind doesn't know that and it keeps putting pressure on you. “Do it, do it, do it.” And because you don't do it, it's using these emotions to call for the action, it stops calling for the action, it shuts off the emotions. And so now depression is the absence of emotion.' ‘I believe in a lot of cases, that's what they're doing, are trying to desensitise you to it. You know, talk about it enough, maybe it doesn't feel as dramatic. And talk therapy has its place so I'm not against it. I think where talk therapy is really good is when you're dealing with a current problem. Where I think the difference between what we do is we're able to get the talk therapy much more effective when you take out all the old stuff that keeps aggravating the new stuff.'    About Dr Don Wood Dr Don Wood, Ph.D., developed the TIPP method after researching how atmospheric conditions affect our minds and impact our lives. In his search for answers for them, Dr Wood connected trauma and their health issues. He also recognised the daily stress they lived with. The only solutions provided came from medications. His experience with his family provided the determination required to develop a cutting-edge neuroscience approach. The program has benefited individuals all over the world. The results have been impressive. Dr Wood has helped trauma survivors from the Boston Marathon bombing attack and the Las Vegas shooting. He has also helped highly successful executives and world-class athletes. Marko Cheseto, a double amputee marathon runner, broke the world record after completing TIPP. Chris Nikic worked with Dr Wood and made world news by becoming the first person with Downs Syndrome to complete an Ironman competition.  The Inspire Performance Institute was built on this simple phrase, ‘There's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing wrong with your mind'. Some events and experiences have created some glitches and error messages for your mind during your lifetime, and all you need is a reboot.   Enjoyed This Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can understand how unresolved trauma can affect our overall health and well-being. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast Lisa Tamati: Welcome back, everybody to Pushing the Limits. Today I have Dr Don Wood, who is sitting in Florida. And Dr Don is a wonderful man. He is a trauma expert. He is someone who had a problem in his own family and sought about finding a solution. He is the developer of the TIPP method, T-I-P-P method. He spent years researching, and to understand how our minds affect our bodies. Dr Wood made the connection between trauma and health issues. In addition, he recognised the daily stress that people live with when they've been through trauma, and that the only solutions provided in the normal conventional world and medications. But his experience with his family provided the determination required to develop a cutting-edge neuroscience approach, a real holistic solution that provides immediate and long lasting relief for people who have been through trauma of any sort, whether it's small or large. The TIPP program developed by Dr Wood has benefited individuals all over the world. And he really wanted to create a solution that removed the stigma of trauma. Too many people are afraid to ask for help because of that stigma. And that's why he named the program around increasing performance levels. The name of his institute is the Inspired Performance Institute.  I really love this episode with Dr Don Wood, he is a lovely, amazing person with a way of helping people get rid of PTSD, get rid of trauma out of their lives. So that they can get on with being the best versions of themselves. And that's what we're all about here. He's worked with everyone, from soldiers coming back from wars to victims of the Boston Marathon bombing campaign, to highly successful executives and world-class athletes. He's been there, done that. So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation with Dr Wood.  Before we head over to the show, just want to remind you, we have our new premium membership for the podcast Pushing the Limits. Now out there. It's a Patron page so you can be involved with the program, with the podcast. We've been doing this now for five and a half years; it is a labor of love. And we need your help to keep this great content coming to you, and so that we can get the best experts in the world and deliver this information direct to your ears. It's a passion that's been mine now for five and a half years and you can get involved with it, you get a whole lot of premium member benefits. And you get to support this cause which we're really, really grateful for. For all those who have joined us on the Patron program. Thank you very, very much. You know, pretty much for the price of a cup of coffee a month, you can get involved. So check that out at patron.lisatamati.com. That's patron P-A-T-R-O-N dot lisatamati.com.  And just reminding you too, we still have our Epigenetics Program going. And this, we have now taken hundreds and hundreds of people through this program. It's a game-changing program that really gives you insights into your genetics, and how to optimise your lifestyle to optimise your genes basically. So everything from your fitness, what types of exercise to do, what times of the day to do it. What, whether you're good at the long distance stuff or whether you be a bit more as a power base athlete, whether you need more agility, whether you need more work through the spine, all these are just information that's just so personalised to you. But it doesn't just look at your fitness, it looks at your food, the exact foods that are right for you. And it goes way beyond that as well as to what are the dominant neurotransmitters in your brain, how they affect your mood and behaviour, what your dominant hormones are, the implications of those, your predispositions for any disorders and the future so that we can hit all those off at the past. It's not deterministic, that is really giving you a heads up, ‘Hey, this could be a direction that you need to be concerned about in the future. And here's what you can do about it.' So come and check out our program. Go to lisatamati.com. And under the button ‘Work With Us', you will find our Peak Epigenetics program. Check that out today. And maybe you can come and join us on one of our live webinars or one of our pre-recorded webinars if you want to you can reach out to me, lisa@lisatamati.com, and I can send you more information about their Epigenetics Program. Right, now over to the show with Dr Don Wood.  Hello, everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. This week, I have another amazing guest for you. I've found some pretty big superstars over the years, and this one is going to be very important to listen to. I have Dr Don Wood, welcome to the show, Dr Don. Dr Don Wood: Thank you, Lisa. I'm excited to be here. Lisa: This is gonna be a very interesting, and it's a long-anticipated interview for me, and Dr Don is sitting in Florida, and you've got a very nice temperature of the day, isn't it? Dr Don: Oh, absolutely gorgeous- low 80s, no humidity. I mean, you just like I said, you couldn't pick a better day, it's very fast. I would have tried to sit outside and do this. But I was afraid somebody would start up a lawn mower. Lisa: Podcast life. I've just got the cat wandering, and so he's probably start meowing in a moment. Now, Dr Don, you are an author, a speaker, a trauma expert, the founder of the Inspired Performance Institute. Can you give us a little bit of background of how did you get to where you are today, and what you do? Dr Don: Well it's sort of an interesting story. I really started the Inspired Performance Institute because of my wife and daughter more. Mostly my daughter than anything else. I talked about this, is that I led this very, very quiet, idyllic kind of childhood with no trauma. Never had anything ever really happen to me. You know, bumps along the way, but nothing kind of that would be considered trauma. And I lived in a home that was so loving and nurturing, that even if I got bumped a little bit during the day, you know, was I, when I was a kid, I'm coming home to this beautiful environment that would just regulate my nervous system again.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Don: So I believe that that was critical in terms of having my nervous system always feeling safe. And that really resulted in amazing health. I mean, I've been healthy all my life. And as an adult, when things would happen, I could automatically go back into that nervous system regulation, because I had trained it without even knowing it.  Lisa: Yeah. Dr Don: that I was able to get back into that. Well. And so when I met my wife, I realised she was not living in that world. And amazingly enough, Lisa, I thought everybody lived like, because I had no idea that a lot of my friends were being traumatised at home. That I had no idea, because everybody's on their best behaviour. If I come over, everybody's behaving themselves and you don't see it. My friends, a lot of times wouldn't share it because of either shame or guilt. I mean, my wife, nobody knew what was going on in their home.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: And she had one best friend that knew, that was about it. And if you met her father, who was really the bad guy in this whole thing, everybody thought he was the greatest guy. Because outwardly, he came across as this generous, hard-working, loving kind of guy. Loved his family, but he just ran his home with terror.  Lisa: Wow. Terrible. Dr Don: And so, oh, it was terrible. So when I met my wife, I realised, wow, this, because we got close very quickly, because I had the chance to play professional hockey in Sweden when I was 18. So we got married at 19. So very quickly, I was around her a lot, while we were sort of getting ready for that. So I got to see the family dynamic up close very quickly. And that's when I realised, boy, she's not living in that world, which is living in fear all the time. And that's why I sat down with her one day, and I just said, ‘Tell me what's going on here. Because I can sense this tension in here. I could sense that there was a lot of fear going on. What's going on?' And she started sharing it with me, but swore me to secrecy. Like I could never tell anybody because of all that shame and guilt, because nobody really outside the home would have been aware of it. Lisa: Or probably believed it.  Dr Don: Or believed it. Right.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: And then it was again, that ‘What will people think about me? What do they think about my family?' That's really common, when you have people who have experienced trauma like that. And so, I sort of follow along and said, ‘Okay, this will be our secret,' but I thought to myself, ‘Well, this will be great now, because I'm going to get her out of that home'.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: And she's going to be living in my world. So everything will just calm down, and she'll be feeling that peace that I've experienced all my life. Lisa: Not quite so simple.  Dr Don: I was like, Well, how is this not helping? Like, why now? She's living in the world that I grew up in because I was very much like my father. I wasn't gonna yell at her, scream at her, do anything that would have made her feel fearful. But she was still living in fear.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: And if, yeah, and if I said something like, ‘No, I don't like that.' She could tear up and start going, why are you mad at me? Yeah. And I would be like, ‘Oh my God, like where did you get I was mad at you for?' I just said. That made no sense to me at the time. Now I understand it perfectly. What I didn't realise at the time was that people who have been traumatised are highly sensitive to sound— Lisa: Hypervigilant and hyperaware of noise and people raising their voice. Dr Don: Any kind of noise. And what she also, as a child, she had learned to listen very carefully to the way her father spoke, so that she could then recognise any kind of the slightest little change in my vocal tone. So if I had been a little frustrated with something at work that day, or, you know, some other thing that was nothing related to her, she could pick up on that tone change. And then, in her mind, what her mind would be doing is saying, ‘What do we know about men when they start to get angry?' And a whole bunch of data and information about her father would come flooding in and overstimulate her nervous system. Lisa: So then it's like they Google search, doing a Google search and going, ‘Hey, have I had this experience before?'  Dr Don: Yeah.  Lisa: And picking out, ‘Yeah, we've been here before. This is not good. This is dangerous. This is scary.' Dr Don: Yep. And that's actually what led me to the research that I did, mainly because of my daughter, though. So my wife lived with that, she developed Hashimoto's. So she had this thyroid issue with, because she was constantly in a fight or flight state.  Lisa: Yeah, the cortisol. Dr Don: More flight than anything. Yeah, cortisol. And so when my daughter was 14, she was diagnosed with Crohn's. And they just told us that you just kind of have to learn to live with this. And she's going to be on medication for the rest of her life. And we'll just continue to cut out pieces of her intestines until she has nothing left and she'd have a colostomy bag. That's just the way it is.  Lisa: Oh. And she's 14 years old. Dr Don: She was 14. Yeah. She ended up having for resections done, she would go down to you know, 90, 85 pounds. She'd get so sick, the poor thing. No, because she just couldn't eat. Yeah. And she couldn't hold anything down. And they just told us to have no answers. My wife did unbelievable research, trying to come up with answers and really couldn't come up with anything except this management system that they've been given her. And so, I was adopted. So we didn't know my family history. Yeah. So our family doctor was my grandfather. And I didn't know this until I was 18.  Lisa: Oh wow.  Dr Don: I always knew I was adopted. But my mother shared the story with me when I was 18. That he came to my parents and said, I have a special child I want you to adopt, right. Now. I guess you just knew that my parents were just amazing people. And you know, at that time, you know, unwed mothers, that was considered a shame. Right? You didn't talk about that. So that was a quiet adoption.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Don: In fact, his wife didn't even know about it.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Don: Could be my grandmother. And that's, it's interesting, the story, because I should share this too. Because what happened was, is I never understood why my birth certificate was dated two years after my birthday. And what happened was, is that my parents adopted me, like immediately upon birth. But my grandmother found out about it, his wife found out about and sued my parents to get me back.  Lisa: Oh. Dr Don: And so they had to go into this legal battle for two years.  Lisa: Oh, wow.  Dr Don: Now I remember when I was really, really young, I used to get these really bad stomach pains. And I, and they took me, I remember going to doctors, I was really young. I remember going to doctors, but my grandfather was very holistic at the time for an MD. So you know, I was on cod liver oil, and you know, all these different things like, and so what he said to me, he says, No, he's just stressed out because of the stress in the home. You have to take the stress out of this home. He's feeling it.'  Lisa: Yep.  Dr Don: Right. So it's not that my parents were yelling, screaming.  Lisa: He's ahead of his time. Dr Don: Oh, way ahead. But what he realised was that, because it was so hard financially for them, that had a major effect on their life. So I guess I was feeling it. And so they went out of their way to take all the stress out.  Lisa: Wow. What lovely parents. Dr Don: Oh yeah. So it created this unbelievable, unusual home life. And so I never had any real tension in the home.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Don: Well, that was, I guess, as my wife said, we were the perfect petri dishes for this because I was living what we want to be, and she was living in the opposite world of what a lot of people do live in. And so at least I knew what the model was, what we were going for. Lisa: And when we're exposed to trauma very early in life, it has a much bigger impact on your health and everything then when it happens later in life. Is that right? Dr Don: Absolutely. Because we've never learned how to balance our systems, so then it stays, you know, in dysregulation a lot more than it did. And that's really what sort of led me to develop the program, is I realised that when my daughter was 16, she disclosed to us some sexual abuse that she had had when she was like six years of age that we had no idea. So my wife was, obviously both of us were devastated, but my wife was extremely, she had experienced, you know, sexual abuse as a child and thought she would never let that happen to her child.  Lisa: Yeah. Dr Don: So now my poor wife has also got a new, you know, trauma onto her. And so that's where it really came down to, is, you know, she said to me, ‘You could research this and find out what's going on, because I have no answers.' And that's when I started to research and I made the connection between trauma and these autoimmune issues, for example, that my wife had, and my daughter. And so what I discovered is that I believe that unresolved trauma creates inflammation in the body. The inflammation compromises the immune system and your neurotransmitters. So we start getting sick, and we start feeling bad because our neurotransmitter, serotonin is produced mostly in the gut. So the serotonin is affected by the inflammation, which was from my daughter, right? She's not going to feel good.  Lisa: Nope.  Dr Don: And then that just leads to a host of other problems. And it's, it's really, really sad that the only solution that we currently are using is to teach people to live and manage and cope with it.  Lisa: I think, yeah, so we, we know, which is, which is good. You know, we're learning things, how to cope with anxieties, and breath work and all that sort of good stuff. But it's not getting to the root cause of the problem and being able to to deal with it. So when we're in a heightened state of stress and cortisol, and when we're taking energy away from our immune system, and blood literally away from the gut, and and from a neurotransmitter production, and all that sort of thing, so is that what's going on, and why it actually affects the body? Because this mind body connection, which we're really only in the last maybe decade, or 15 years or something, really starting to dig into, isn't it? Like there's and there's still a massive disconnect in the conventional medical world where this is the mind, and this is the body. And you know, from here, up and here, and it's separate. Dr Don: And so on and so forth? Yeah. Lisa: Yeah. And it we're one thing, you know. And so this has a massive effect on our health, and it can lead to all sorts of autoimmune diseases, or even cancers, and so on. So you were at this time, so you didn't have the Inspired Performance Institute at this stage? What were you doing professionally? And then, did you go back and do a PhD? And in...? Wow. Dr Don: I've always been an entrepreneur all my life. So I was in financial services, we did a number of different things. We, my son and I, still have an energy business, we do solar energy and stuff like that. Lisa: Oh wow.  Dr Don: I decided if I was going to do this, I needed to go back and really study. So I went back and got by, went back to school, got my PhD.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Don: And, you know, to truly, to try to add credibility, number one, to what I was doing. Because, you know, people are gonna say, ‘Well, who are you? Yeah, you know, why should we listen to you? You never had any trauma and you're supposed to be an expert? Like, how does that work?' You know, it's the same thing with addiction. You know, I help people with addiction. I've never had a drink in my life, never touched a drug in my life. Now that I say, but I know what addiction is.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: I don't believe addiction is a disease. I believe it's a code that gets built from pain. Lisa: Yeah, let's dig into that a little bit. And then we'll go back to your daughter's story. Because addiction, you know, it's something I know from a genetic perspective. I have a tendency towards, towards having addictive nature, personality traits. I chase dopamine a lot. I have a deficit of dopamine receptors. And so I'm constantly going after that reward. Now that's worked itself out in my life, and in running ridiculous kilometres and working ridiculous hours, and not always in negative things. Luckily, I've never had problems with drinking or drugs, but I know that if I had started down that road, I would have ended up probably doing it, you know, very well.  Dr Don: You'd be a star as well.  Lisa: I'd be a star in that as well. And luckily, I was sort of a little bit aware of that and my parents never drank and they, you know, made sure that we had a good relationship with things like that, and not a bad one. Have struggled with food, though. That's definitely one of the emotional sort of things. And I think a lot of people have some sort of bad relationship with food in some sort of way, shape, or form on the spectrum, so to speak. What is it that causes addiction? And is it a physical dependency? Or is there something more to it? Dr Don: Yeah, that's why I don't believe it's a physical dependency. Because here's the way I look at it is, people will say to me, ‘Well, if I stopped this heroin, the body's going to crave the heroin, and I'm going to go into withdrawal.' And my response to that is, ‘How could the body crave a substance that it doesn't know? It doesn't regulate heroin. How could it crave something that doesn't regulate?' I believe it's the mind, has made a connection between the heroin and survival. Because you have felt bad, right? Because of trauma, or whatever it is, whenever you took the heroin, you felt better.  So I had a lady come in who had been on heroin. And she said to me, she's, ‘Well, I told my therapist, I'm coming to see you. And he told me, I had to let you know upfront and be honest and tell you I have self-destructive behaviour.' And I just smiled at her. And I said, ‘Really? What would make you think you're self destructive?' And she looked at me, because this is what she's been told for a year.  Lisa: Brilliant.  Dr Don: She says, ‘Well, I'm sticking a needle in my arm with heroin, don't you think that's self destructive?' And I said to her, I said, ‘No, I don't think it was self destructive. I think you're trying to feel better. And I bet you, when you stuck the needle in your arm, you felt better.' That nobody had ever said that to her before. And so I said, ‘Now, the substance you're using is destructive, but you're not destructive? What if I could show you another way to feel better, that didn't require you having to take a drug?'  Lisa: Wow. Dr Don: And I said, ‘You're designed to feel better. And I believe that the brain, what happened is, is it because you felt bad, you found a resource that temporarily stopped that pain.' And you see your subconscious mind is fully present in the moment. So when does it want pain to stop? Right now. And if that heroin stops the pain right now, then what happened was, is that system, you have two memory systems, you have explicit memory system that records all the information in real time. So it records all the data, and stores. No other animal does that. We're the only animal that stores explicit details about events and experiences. We also have an associative procedural memory that we learned through association and repetition over time. So, because the explicit memory kept creating the pain, because we kept thinking about it, and looping through this pain cycle, you started taking heroin, then you engage your second associative memory, which learns through repetition and builds, codes, habits, and behaviours.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Don: Because you kept repeating it your mind built a code and connected up the pain being relieved by the substance.  Lisa: Wow. Dr Don: Now, your subconscious mind is literal. So it doesn't understand negation. It only understands what's happening now. And so if your mind says that substance stops the pain, it doesn't look at the future and consequences of it. It only looks at what's happening. It's only our conscious mind that can think of consequences. Your subconscious mind, which is survival-based only understands. That's why people at 911 would jump out of the buildings. They weren't jumping to die, they would jumping to stop from dying. Yeah, if they didn't jump, they would have died right now. So even if they went another two seconds, they weren't dying now.  Lisa: Right? So it's really in the right now, there's really no right now. It's really in the seconds.  Dr Don: And the very, very milliseconds of what's happening now. And there's no such thing as consequences, it's basically survival. So now, if you keep repeating that cycle over and over using heroin, and then somebody comes along and says, ‘Lisa, you can't do that. That's bad for you. I'm going to take that away from you.' Your survival brain will fight to keep it because it thinks it'll die without it.  Lisa: Yeah. Makes a glitch.  Dr Don: It's an error message.  Lisa: Have you heard of Dr Austin Perlmutter on the show last week, David Perlmutter's son and they're both written a book called Brain Wash. And there they talk about disconnection syndrome. So the disconnection between the prefrontal cortex in the amygdala and the amygdala can be more powerful when we have inflammation in the brain. For example, like inflammation through bad foods, or toxins, or mercury, or whatever the case may be. And that this can also have an effect on our ability to make good long-term decisions. It makes us live in the here and now. So I want that here and fixed now; I want that chocolate bar now. And I know my logical thinking brain is going, ‘But that's not good for you. And you shouldn't be doing that.' And you, you're trying to overcome it. But you're there's this disconnect between your prefrontal cortex and your amygdala. And I've probably butchered that scenario a little bit. Dr Don: No, you got it. But 95% of your mind is working on that subconscious survival base. It's only about 5% that's logical. That logical part of your brain is brilliant, because it's been able to use reason and logic to figure stuff out. So it created the world we live in: automobiles, airplanes, right, computers, all of that was created by that 5%, part of the brain 5%. However, if there is a survival threat, survival will always override reason and logic. 100% of the time.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Don: So you can't stop it. And it's what I talked about was that time slice theory. Did I mention that when we were going?  Lisa: No.  Dr Don: When I did my research, one of the things that I found was something called the time slice theory. And what that is, is that two scientists at the University of Zurich asked the question— is consciousness streaming? So this logical conscious part of our mind that prefrontal cortex, is that information that we're, as you and I are talking now, is that real, coming in real time? And what they discovered is, it's not.  Lisa: Oh. Dr Don: The 95% subconscious part of your mind, it's streaming. While let's say your survival brain churns in everything in real time, processes that information, and then only sends pieces or time slices, because your conscious mind cannot handle that detail.  Lisa: Oh, wow. So they're filtering it. Dr Don: Filtering it. And yeah, so as it takes it in, processes it, and then sends time slices or some of that information to your conscious mind. Right? But there's a 400 millionth of a second gap in between your subconscious seeing it, processing it, and sending it. And when I read that, that's when I came up with the idea that what's it doing in that 400 millionth of a second? It's doing a Google search, see? And so in that 400 millionth of a second, your survival brain has already calculated a response to this information before you're consciously aware of it.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Don: And so the prefrontal cortex has got a filter on there to be able to stop an impulse, right? So it's the ventral lateral prefrontal cortex is sort of the gatekeeper to say, ‘Okay, let's not go into a rage and get into trouble. Let's try to stop that.' So we have that part of our brain. However, here's where the problem comes in— You're driving and traffic and somebody cuts you off. And so your first response is, you get angry, because this person is like, ‘Oh, I want to chase that guy down and give him a piece of my mind.' But that part of your brain can say, ‘Let's think about this. Hold on,' you know, even though it's 400 millionth of a second later, the first anger response, then it should be able to pull that back. Here's where the problem comes in. If getting cut off in traffic looked like you had been just disrespected. During that Google search, your now, your subconscious mind has filtered through every experience of being disrespected. And so much information comes in that it cannot stop the response. It overrides it, because now it feels threatened. And our prisons are full of people who had been so badly hurt, that that part of their brain can't do that. You and I can probably do that. Right?  Lisa: Sometimes. Dr Don: Because we can say, sometimes? You know, you can run them down. You can leave the car. But that's where the problem comes in. Yeah, can't stop that, then that rage and all those things come in. And that affects your relationships could affect all kinds of things. And people would say, ‘Oh, you got an anger management problem. We're going to teach you to live with, you know, and manage that anger.' What I'm saying is ‘No, it's a glitch. We don't need all that data coming in.' Right, good response, a Google search is creating the problem. Lisa: Like there's so many questions while hearing what you just said that, and I've experienced in my own life where with my family, where the initial response is so quick, that someone's punched someone else before they've even thought about what the heck they are doing. In the, when you said that, disrespected like this is, you know, I think when I've gotten really really angry and overreacted to something, when I think about it logically later, and a couple of times were of, like, in my early adult years, I was in a very abusive relationship. Thereafter, when I would get into another relationship, and that person tried to stop me doing something, I would just go like, into an absolute fit of rage. Because I was fighting what had happened to me previously, and this poor person, who may have not even been too bad, got the full barrels of verbal assault. Because I just reacted to what had happened to me 10 years previously. And that's the sort of thing where I felt like I was being controlled, disrespected when he went in. So that Google search is happening in a millisecond.  Dr Don: 400 millionths of a second. you couldn't have stopped, impossible for you to stop. And then people would say, ‘What's wrong with Lisa? She's just normally a great person, but where is that coming from?' Up until now, you may not have known that. But that's what it is. And it's impossible for you to have stopped. It was the same thing when my wife and I would say, ‘No, I don't like that.' And she would start to cry. I'd be saying, ‘Gosh, what am I doing to make this woman cry?' It wasn't what I said. It was what I said that activated her Google search, which then flooded into data about her father. She was responding to her father, not to me. We both didn't know that; we all thought that she was responding to what I just said. Lisa: Isn't this always just such complex— and if you start to dissect this, and start to think about the implications of all this, and our behaviour, and our communication and our relationships, so much pain and suffering is happening because we're not understanding, we're not, we're angry at people, we're disappointed with people, we're ashamed of things that we've done. And a lot of this is happening on a level that none of you know, none of us are actually aware of. I mean, I liken it to, like, I know that my reactions can sometimes be so quick. Like before, my, just in a positive sense, like effect glasses falling off the beach, I would have caught it with my bare hand before my brain has even registered it. I have always had a really fast reaction to things like that. That's a clear example of, like, that permanent brain that's in the here and now, has caught it before I've even realised that's happening. Dr Don: You know, and that's why I always say to people, ‘Did you choose to do that?' And they'll say, ‘Well, I guess I did.' I go, ‘No, you didn't.' Didn't just happen that happened before you could actually use the logical part of your brain. And because it was so much information, right? Even though the logical part of your brain would say, ‘Well, you know, don't lash out at this person. They didn't mean that.' It would already have happened. Yeah, I worked with a professional athlete. He was a baseball player playing in the major leagues. And I explained that concept to him. And then we were at a, one of his practice workouts, and his pitcher was throwing batting practice behind a screen. And so as he threw the ball, this guy, my client hit the ball right back at the screen, and the coach, like, hit the ground. Right? And I stopped right there. And I said, ‘Great example.' I said, Did your coach just choose to duck?  Lisa: Or did he automatically do it?  Dr Don: He had no, he had no time to use exactly. The logic. If you use the logical part of your brain, what would you have said? ‘This ball can hit me; there's a screen in front of me.' Lisa: Yeah, yeah. But you know— Dr Don: No way logic is going to prevail, when there's a threat like that coming at you. Yeah.  Lisa: This is why it's important because we need to be able to react in that split second, if there really is a danger and there's a bullet flying in ahead or something like that or something, somebody is coming at us from, to do us harm, then we need to be able to react with split second timing.  Dr Don: But you don't want that logic coming into it.  Lisa: No, but we do want the logic coming in when it's an emotional response. Do you think like, when people have had repeated brain injuries, they are more likely to have problems with this, you know, the prefrontal cortex not functioning properly and even being slower to respond or not getting enough blood flow to that prefrontal cortex in order to make these good decisions? Dr Don: Yeah, absolutely. And if you look at SPECT scans or brain scans of people who have had those kinds of injuries, you'll see that that part of the brain, that frontal part of the brain, the blood flow will drop when they get into those situations. Lisa: Wow. And then they can't make a good decision. And here we are blaming them for being— Dr Don: Blaming them for being— Lisa: —and they end up in prisons, and they end up with hurt broken lives and terrible trauma. And, you know, it's not good if they react and hit somebody or kill somebody or whatever. But how can we fix this? And that one of my go-tos is the hyperbaric oxygen therapy. And I've heard you talk about that on a podcast with Mark Divine in regards to your son. And that is one way we can actually help our brains if we've had had a traumatic brain injury or PTSD or anything like that, is that right? Dr Don: Yeah, my, like I said, my son had three head injuries, one in elementary school, one in middle school, one in high school. And the first one, we didn't see as big an effect. But he did have a problem. The second one, he ended up with retrograde amnesia. And then the third one, we just saw him go downhill and just really couldn't communicate very well, didn't have any energy, had a lot of anger issues and they just kept saying he's got major depression, you need to medicate them. And I was like, ‘No, I believe we've got traumatic brain injury.' But I could not get them to give me a script for a SPECT scan or an fMRI. It was impossible. And I wasn't looking for the structure, because they'd look at an MRI and they'd say, ‘We don't see any damage.' Well, it wasn't the physical damage we're looking for, it was a functional damage that we were looking for. Lisa: Yeah, the blood flow. Yeah.  Dr Don: And once we discovered that that's what it was, we got him into hyperbaric oxygen therapy, and he started getting the blood flow into the areas that he needed to process what he was experiencing. And so if you can, you can imagine how difficult that would be, somebody saying, well just go over there and do that. And you don't have the ability to process it.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: And so that frustration there is anger would be coming from just complete frustration.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: That he just couldn't do it's like, you know, you ran in somebody and you couldn't lift your right leg.  Lisa: Yeah.  Dr Don: Right. And somebody said, ‘Just start running.' ‘I'm trying.'  Lisa: Yeah, yeah.  Dr Don: It would be very, very frustrating.  Lisa: Yeah, I mean, having worked with, you know, my mum with the brain injury for five and a half years, and I will tell you, man, that is so frustrating. And still, even though she's had well, you know, must be close to 280 or something hyperbaric sessions, and gone from being not much over a vegetative state to being now incredibly high functioning. But there are still some pieces missing that I cannot get to. Because obviously damage in the brain where parts of the brain cells are, have been killed off. And we, you know, I'm really having trouble with things like vestibular systems, so, or initiation of motivation, and things like that. And hyperbaric can do a heck of a lot, it can't fix areas of the brain that is actually dead. So I, you know, and we don't have SPECT scans over here, this is not available. We don't do them. Dr Don: Yeah. And they're hard to get here. I just don't understand them. Lisa: They're very frustrating, because they just are so powerful to understand. Because when you see you've got a problem in your head, that it's actual physical problem, then, you know, it takes away the blame the guilt, and you know, like, I was having this conversation with my brother, and I'm, you know, talking about Mum, and why isn't she doing this, that and the other end. And I said, ‘Because she's got brain damage, and we can't get her to do that thing.' ‘But she's normal now. She should be doing that now.' And I'm like, ‘She's much, much better. But in that part of the brain, I haven't been able to recover.' It is still a thing. That is the year. That is, I am, not that I'm giving up on it, but you know, there are just certain things that we haven't quite got the full thing back. Dr Don: The SPECT scan would show that. And you'd probably see it, or do they do fMRIs there? Lisa: I haven't checked out fMRI because yeah. Dr Don: Check out the fMRI.  Lisa: I only heard you say that the other day, and I didn't, I knew about SPECT scans and I knew about. Dr Hearts and all the SPECT scans that he's done, and Dr Daniel Amen and the brilliant work on it all and I've searched the country for it. And New Zealand there's, they've got one that does research stuff down in New Zealand and I think but it's it's nobody can get access to it. And it's just, oh gosh, this is just such a tragedy because then we can actually see what's going on. Because people have been put on antidepressants. They've been put on, you know, antipsychotic drugs. Some things that are perhaps not necessary. We could have, we could have dealt with it with other other ways, like hyperbaric and like with, you know, good nutrients, and even like your program that you do that would perhaps be the first line of defense before we grab to those types of things. But— Dr Don: The fMRI would definitely probably help you. So it's, you know, a functional MRI. Yeah. So it's going to give you blood flow. I just had a young boy come in, nine years, nine years old, having real issues. And anyway, his mum's gone everywhere, tried everything. And I said, have you done an fMRI? She says, oh we've done the MRIs. But, and I said, ‘'No, you need an fMRI.' She'd never heard of it. No, I was telling her about it.  Lisa: I hadn't even heard about it either. Dr Don: She didn't want to do SPECT scans, because SPECT scans are going to put something into your system, right? So she didn't want any kind of dyes, or any kind of those, you know, radioisotopes and stuff like that. So the fMRI is the other answer to try to get that. Lisa: Oh, okay. I'll see whether they've got that, they probably haven't got that either. I'd say, probably having Dark Ages with a lot of things. Dr Don: There's so many things like that, that would give you answers that they just don't do, which is surprising to me. Because when you think research, I mean, you find out how effective they are, why wouldn't they do it? You know, they just won't. Lisa: Oh, yeah, like one of those doctors who was on my podcast, and we're talking about intravenous vitamin C. And he said, I said, ‘Why is it taking so long when there's thousands of studies proving that it's really powerful when there's critical care conditions like sepsis, what I lost my father to?' And they said, ‘Yeah, because it's like turning a supertanker. There's just 20 years between what they know in the clinical studies to what's actually happening in the hospitals.' He says at least a 20-year lag. And this is just, when you live in New Zealand, probably a 30-year lag. We're just just behind the eight ball all the time, and all of these areas of what's actually currently happening.  I wanted to go back to your story with your daughter. Because she's got Crohn's disease, 14 years old, diagnosed, having to hit all these restrictions, and that she's going to have to manage it for the rest of her life. And she will never be well. What actually happened? Because we didn't actually finish that story. Dr Don: Well, like I said, so she had, you know, suffered for many years with that, and she's an actress, so any kind of stress would just aggravate it. So she would constantly be getting sick, because, you know, the more stress she has, the more inflammation she's creating, and then she would just get sick and go back to the hospital. So it has really affected her career. So that's when my wife said, ‘You've got to come up with some answers.' And so I did the research. And I really believe that it was a trauma as a child that continued. Because this is when I made the connection between unresolved trauma and inflammation. Inflammation is the response to trauma, whether it's physical or emotional. And the purpose of the inflammation is to protect the integrity of the cell. So the cell gets into an enlarged space. So it sort of puffs out, gets enlarged and hardened to protect it from getting penetrated from any kind of foreign invader.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Don: So the idea behind it is, it's a temporary pause, because there's been an injury. So the idea is, we need to protect this area. So let's protect it and not let anything get into the cells while, until the danger has passed. So this temporary pause in the system, temporarily suspends the immune system, temporarily suspends the processing of the cell until the danger passes, and then the immune system can come in and clean up, right and take care of everything. The problem was, is that my daughter's trauma was never resolved. So those cells in her intestinal area stayed in an active cell danger response, in an inflamed response, because as far as it was concerned, she was continually being assaulted.  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Don: Because it kept looping through the trauma. Yeah. So once we took her through this program, and we resolved it so that we were able to stop her mind from constantly trying to protect her from this threat as a six year old, because your subconscious doesn't have any relationship to time. So if you think about something that happened to you when you were six, that's happening now. So in her mind, she was being hurt now. And until we got that updated, so it's like a computer, I say your brain is a computer. Your body is the printer.  Lisa: Oh, wow. That's a good analogy. Dr Don: And so if the brain has an error message, it's going to affect the printer.  Lisa: Yes.  Dr Don: So in her mind, that trauma kept on looping. As soon as we got that corrected, and her mind understood that there was no memory— the memory was still there, but the activation of our nervous system stopped, the inflammation went down. Lisa: See, that's it, like your body's calling for action. I've heard you say—  Dr Don: That's when it processes the emotion.  Lisa: Yeah. So when you think back to a traumatic event in your life, and you start crying and you're reacting as if you were right there in the in, which, you know, I can do in a split second with some of the trauma that you know, been through. That means that there is a high-definition in your brain, that those moments in time are just locked in there, and causing this, the stress response, still now. And that's why you're crying years later, for something that happened. And it's actually calling for action. It's telling you to do something. But of course, it's a memory you can't do something. Dr Don: So action required, you know I think that's the glitch, the error message that I talked about. So if you think about something that happened to you five years ago, and you start to feel fear, or cry, your heart starts pounding in your chest, your mind is saying ‘Run,' five years ago, because it's seen it in real time. Now, it's impossible to run five years ago, but your mind doesn't know that. So it's going to continue to try to get you to run. And so a lot of times when I talk to people who have depression, one of the things I asked, I'll ask them is, ‘What are you angry about?' And they'll go, ‘Well, no, I'm not angry, I'm depressed.' And I'll say, ‘What's happened is your mind has been calling for an action for many, many years, that was impossible to accomplish. But your mind doesn't know that and it keeps putting pressure on you. Do it, do it, do it. And because you don't do it, it's using these emotions to call for the action, it stops calling for the action, it shuts off the emotions.'  Lisa: Wow.  Dr Don: And so now depression is the absence of emotion. Lisa: Right. Dr Don: And so what is done is to protect you, it's shut down the request. Lisa: Everything down. So you go sort of numb, numb and apathetic and just— Dr Don: Because you can't do what it's been asking you to do. And so it's been calling for that action for many, many years. You don't do it. And so it says, ‘Well, this isn't working. So let's just shut the system off for a while. We won't ask for the action anymore.' And so that's why the people are depressed. And as soon as you get to the cause of it, what has your mind been asking you to do and you resolve it, then your mind stops calling for the action. And then the depression will lift. Lisa: You had a great example of a lady that you worked with. Rebecca Gregory, was it from the Boston— can you tell us that story? Because that was a real clear example of this exact thing. Dr Don: Yeah. So Rebecca came to see me five years after the Boston Marathon. She was three feet from the first bomb that went off. And so her son was sitting at her feet. So when the bomb went off, luckily she shielded him, but she took the brunt of the blast. She lost her left leg. And five years later, she's having post-traumatic stress, right? And she says, ‘I have nightmares every night. I heard about your program. I heard that you can clear this in four hours.' She says, ‘Iy sounds too good to be true.' But she says, ‘I'm completely desperate. So I'll try anything.' And so she came in and sat down. And what I explained to her as she started to talk is, I said, ‘Rebecca, do you know why you're shaking and crying as you're talking to me right now?' And she says, ‘Well, because I'm talking about what happened to me.' And I said, ‘That's right. But your mind thinks a bomb is about to go off. And it's trying to get you to run.' And I said, ‘But there's no bomb going off. It's just information about a bomb that went off. But your mind doesn't know that.' And that, she'd never heard before. And so what we did is over the next four hours, we got her mind to reset that high-definition data that had been stored about the bombing into a regular alpha brainwave state, right, where it's very safe and peaceful.  So she could recall it and she could talk about it without the emotion. Why? Because, now we're not going for happy, right? You know, it's still sad that it happened. But what we're trying to stop is that dysregulation of the fear, the call for the run. That stopped. And you can watch your testimonial on her on our site, and she just talked about, she goes, ‘I just couldn't believe that you could stop that.' Lisa: But in four hours.  Dr Don: And then now she can go out and she spoke all over the country. You know, she was a very high-profile lady who did a lot of great work in trying to help people. But she was still suffering with post-traumatic stress. Yeah, trying to help people who were experiencing post-traumatic stress.  Lisa: She knew what it was like.  Dr Don: She was living it. Same thing. I tell the story, it's another dramatic one was a US Army sniper who had to shoot and kill a 12 year old boy. Lisa: Oh, gosh.  Dr Don: And when

Brian Burke, based in Santa Rosa, California, is a real estate investor and the President and CEO of Praxis Capital, which is a vertically integrated private equity investment firm. He established this firm back in 2001. He began his career in 1989, buying his first rental property which led him into the world of multi-family then commercial investing.  Brian is a successful entrepreneur and syndicator - today he shares how he started his real estate career and giving back to his community after the wildfire in California. He also discusses his investing strategy, where he’s looking to invest, what to expect from an investment and his future plans. Some Of The Highlights: His First Real Estate Investment and His Business Today His Work Strategy and Advice For a ‘Rainy Day’ In Business Brian’s Retirement Plan What is the preferred return?    Connect with Brian: Website: PRAXCAP.COM - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION Intro: Hey guys, this is Eden and today is a very special episode because we are going to host Brian Burke, who is one of the biggest investors on this show to date. Brian had completed half a billion in real estate purchases this year alone after a long and beautiful career that lasted for 30 years and still counting. When listening to this episode, I was personally amazed by how humble Brian is and the sheer perspectives and mindset real estate investors to have despite the fact that they never met before. Also, today we would like to ask you guys for a favor. If you love our content and feel like you're learning from this podcast, please go on iTunes and give us a five-star review. This helps the podcast to rank higher and the best, part if you give us five-star review, shoot us an email at Hello@donandeden.com with the content of the review and your phone number, and you'll get scheduled for 30 minutes phone call with me and Don where you can talk about real estate and get answers for the questions you always had. So, without further ado, let's get started. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Hey Brian, welcome to the show. Brian: Thanks for having me on Don. Don: How's the weather in Santa Rosa, California? Brian: Oh, it's a beautiful day today, almost 80 degrees this afternoon and in November, which is a little unusual, but I'll take it. Don: I like to skate. It's like my hobby. So, I went to L.A., I went to Venice. I took a month off, just wanted to skate, took my skates with me and went there. Some people said it's the best place for anything that has wheels. And so, when I got there, that was late May and it was raining. It was like rain in L.A. and people told me it's very rare. That never happens. And it was kind of cold. And so, one of my friends that lives in California said that the weather over there was pretty unusual this year. Would you agree? Brian: Yeah, it was unusual. A lot of rain this spring and a lot of heat this fall. So, it's been a little bit unusual. But I would say the best weather in California is probably September and October. Those are usually some of the nicest months and people think that summer is probably the nicest, but it's not always the case. Don: Yeah not always the case. Is it still burning over there? I know you guys had the wildfires. Brian: There's a large fire. The largest fire in our country's history just got fully contained yesterday. And that was about a couple miles up the road from our office. So, we were under mandatory evacuation last week. And this week, we're back in action here in the office. Don: As sad it is to say that, I'm sure that these wildfires pose some great opportunities for real estate investors. Am I right? Brian: Well, once in a while they do and we had a fire in our city two years ago that wiped out 5000 homes in our city. We raised a fund last year to rebuild homes and our city and we raised about $8 million and we've been building single-family homes on burned-out home sites where the owners decided not to rebuild and elected instead to sell or move to a different area, put their lots up for sale and we're putting spec homes on those lots and got a couple of dozen homes under construction right now. So certainly it does breed some opportunity. Don: Not only opportunity, in this case, also give back to the community that is your city. Eventually, you want people to live in it and feel happy about it. Because that's home for you. Right? Brian: Yeah, people want the city to be put back the way it was. And we're doing our part to help do that and at the same time provide much-needed housing. When you lose 5000 homes in a city of 250,000 people it makes a real impact on housing demand, and there's a need for housing here. And we're helping to provide that which is pretty exciting. Don: That's beautiful. So, I know your real estate career is a very long one. You're one of the most successful entrepreneurs and syndicators on the show to date. I know you've amassed a portfolio of 250 to 300 million if my numbers are right and you've completed your half a billion in purchases of properties this year, am I right? Brian: Yeah. 2019 is a banner year for us. We crossed the half a billion-dollar mark and real estate purchase, which is an incredible accomplishment for me to even say that it is weird. I never imagined that in my lifetime I would do something like that. But we managed to pull it off. Now we've got a portfolio consisting mostly of multifamily properties. Our business focuses primarily a hundred units and up multifamily all across the US and we've got about 3000 units that we've done. Our portfolio now is about 250-300 million of value. We still do some single-family here and there. Of course, our fund where we're building homes in our city, so we're kind of a multidisciplinary real estate firm that started in single-family migrated to multifamily, but once you have developed roots and single-family, it's hard to lose those. Don: Yes. I started single families too, and let's be honest, it's fun. Even when you're doing commercial, it's still fun to do some projects there as well. So, let's talk about how it all started. When did you make your first steps in real estate? What was it back then? Because I know you've been doing real estate for 30 years, right? Brian: Yeah, my first real estate investment was a little over 30 years ago. In 1989 was my first real estate investment. Don: Just a side note. I was born in 1989. Brian: You were born? Yes. So, when you were busy being born, I was busy trying to find a house to buy and I made my first real estate investment. I didn't even own my own home but I bought a rental and fixed it up a little bit and a couple of years later sold that and I started doing some house flips, one house at a time and I was still working at the time and this enabled me to make a living on my job and then invest in real estate to build my future. Don: What a smart decision! So, one thing led to another and now you are in control of over 500 million worth of property in multifamily which is amazing. So, tell us a little bit about the first deal in multifamily. When was the first time you decided to buy a commercial property? Brian: My first multifamily was about 16 or 17 years ago. And it was here in California, it was a 16 unit apartment building. And what I was doing is I trying to figure out how to invest in commercial real estate, but I just didn't understand it very well. I didn't understand what the numbers meant or how to value it or how to evaluate it. Two rental houses that I accumulated through my house flipping business and flip one, keep one flip one, keep one. So, I had a couple of rentals I wanted to sell and I wanted to do a 1031 exchange and exchange up into an apartment building. It just seemed like it was an interesting way to grow the business and have more economies of scale and cash flow and all that.  So, I reached out to the real estate agent that was helping me sell my flips because he was a CCIM which is a certified commercial broker. And I said, "Hey, I don't understand any of this and will you teach me?" and he did. He taught me how to read an income statement and what to look for and all kinds of different things. And then not long after that, he's told me my first apartment building. I did a 1031 exchange and never looked back. Don: How was the first investment? Was it a good investment, a bad investment? Brian: Funny story is I just sold that property like two years ago. So, I kept it for a long time and I was able to do a 1031 exchange into an oceanfront condo in Hawaii where I rent that out and, maybe one day I'll even be able to move into it. Who knows? Don: We all have dreams. Being busy in real estate, you never stopped working. So, I know we talked a little bit before the show started. I asked you about the ways that you make money when you own such a massive portfolio, but most of it you syndicated. So, most of it, you had to raise money. And you had to structure a deal in which your investors are being paid first because I know you care about your investors. So how do you make money? How much money do you make on these types of deals that you're acquiring? What are your goals for the future as far as your financials? Brian: I started just entirely doing things with many of the resources that I could collect together. My first single-family investment was done with seller financing and then after that, I was like cash advance credit cards and getting signature lines of credit and all crazy kinds of things. I always tried to learn by putting my own money at risk. Then once I figured out how to do it right, I would go to investors and have investors invest. It took me about 12 years to start raising money from investors. And I did it for my single-family business.  First, I raised a blind pool fund and I split the profits 50-50 with my investors while we were flipping homes, and then when we move into multifamily, we're seeing a lot of money from investors. If you're going to buy half a billion dollars in real estate, it takes a lot of capital to do that. We were fortunate that a lot of investors were interested in partnering with us and putting up capital. So generally, the way we work it is the investors provide most of the capital for any multifamily acquisitions that we acquire. And in exchange, the investors get all of the profits until they've received a certain rate of return. Turn, once they've received that specific rate of return, then we start splitting in the profits and our splits usually start around 30% of the profits as the return goes up, then our split can get a little bit higher than that.  But generally, our investors always get the majority of the profits, and they always get paid first. So, this isn't a big cash flow business for us. I know a lot of syndicators out there, who'll just have a profit split day one where every dollar that comes in some goes to the investors and some go to the sponsor. Ours doesn't work that way, the investors get a preferred return where they get all of the cash flow until they've received a threshold return and then we start to share. So, we keep the lights on here by doing house flips and having other multiple streams of income. For example, us building homes here in our community and the fire damage lots is another source of income and we have a lending company which is another source of income.  Occasionally we sell our multifamily properties and that's when we get paid. We get a payday, not a paycheck. It's not quite as lucrative as many people would think, but eventually, you get there and profit potential is enormous but you never realized that until you start performing for your investors. Don: Okay, so let's talk about the way that you structure your deals with your investors. So, they're getting a preferred return. I guess it's 8% right that's the classic return that they get? Brian: Yeah, ours is 8% general. Don: 8% and then that's going to be a preferred return which means they get that right away as they invested the funds or a little bit after right it could be two or three months after, right? Brian: It doesn't mean anything, they may never receive it. If the dealer loses money and never makes money from day one, they never see a dime. But the way of preferred return works is that the investors get 100% of the cash flow until they've reached that threshold return and that's a cumulative return. So, if you invest today, in the first year, the deal throws off no cash flow, you get no cash flow. But if the second year it throws off 4% you get 4%. In the third year, throws off 8% you get 8%. In the fourth year it throws off 12%, you get all 12 because we still owe you 4% from year two and 8% from year one. So, if for two more years after that it still produces 12%, those two years, you're still getting 12% that makes up the 8% from the first year. And then after that, dropped to 8%, we'd start splitting the difference of what goes over 8%.  So, a preferred return is often confused with a dividend and it's they're not the same. A preferred return just means that you're first in line for all cash flow until you receive your hurdle rate. It doesn't mean that you're going to get distributions right away equal to the preferred return. It just depends on what the property is throwing off cash flow wise. Don: Yes, thank you for clarifying that. Now, I know the investors are putting all the down payment and the capital expenses for repairing the properties and improving the properties. And so, they also get a share of the profits of the entire purchase. So, you're offering your investor 70% 30%? Brian: First, they get 100% until you reach that 8%. So, if they haven't been distributed the full 8% through cash flow during the ownership period, then that's where you catch it up. As you take your sales proceeds, you catch up on your preferred return first. After your preferred return is fully caught up, then any sales proceeds remaining after that are split according to whatever the waterfall is. And if it's 70-30, 70% goes to the investor 30% goes to the sponsor. In our case, we have a couple of different hurdle thresholds where it's 70-30, typically to a 12. And then after a 12% return, anything that goes above a 12% return is then split 60-40. And anything that goes above a 15% return if you actually can ever get above a 15% return, if we do then whatever a little amount goes over would be split 50-50. That's the way at least three quarters to 80% of our deals are structured that way and of course, every once in a while there are slight variations on that theme. Don: So, at the end of the entire purchase in the cycle of purchasing a property, renovating the property, stabilizing it, and then you refinancing the properties or you're selling them? Brian: If we're going to hold over three years we like to refinance and return capital to investors. But if we can sell, we will. I always like to say that we're a buy and watch investor, we don't necessarily buy to flip and we don't necessarily buy to hold. What we do is we buy the asset we watch, we improve the asset, and we watch the market for the most optimal exit point. And generally speaking, the most optimal time to exit is going to be right around year two and a half, two year three and a half, right around that point after you've fixed up units and fixed up the outside, you've increased the income, you've pumped the value.  That's the inflection point where now the business plan would switch from things we physically do to just simply relying on the market for anything additional after that point. And when we reached that inflection point, that's usually when we like to sell. But if the market isn't cooperating and we don't think it's the right time to sell then we won’t sell. We can refinance, return some capital investors, sit on it for another year or two or three until the market is ripe for a sale, and then we could sell at that point. Don: What would you say you're typically improving the property like as far as the value goes? So, let's say you purchase a property for 10 million. After all the renovations and after improving the property, what would you say, percentage-wise, is the new value that you guys can bring the property to? Brian: On stabilization, we're looking for at least a 20% lift that includes, over and above the renovation. So, if we bought a property for 10 million, and then we put 2 million into it, or 12, then you'd be looking for somewhere around a $2.4 million increase. So, you'd be like 14.5, maybe 15 million to exit. So, we're looking for the kind of like that 20% or more lift within that stabilize period. Don: Of course, we got 2.4 million in profit, 30% of that is going to go to the sponsor or is considered profit for the sponsor after the deal is completed, right? Brian: First, you have to catch up with your 8% preferred return. So, let's say you distributed no cash flow during that period. For example, let's say it was a real deep value add and wasn't throwing off any cash. Now the first thing you'd have to do is give 100% of it to your investors until they got an 8% return. If it was three years' worth of time, then that's 8% times three. That goes off first, and then after that, whatever cash is left is what goes into the split here. Don: So, assuming you were cash flowing, and you managed to pay the preferred return during the entire process, and they always got the 8%, right? Hypothetically speaking, so you would be making 30%. Brian: That's right Don: Of the amount that you generated, which is 2.4 million in case of buying a property for around 10 million. Brian: And yeah, so you're looking at maybe $750,000. Could be your potential payday for the value created. That's right. Don: Yeah. So, it's just a matter of being able to get into a few deals like that every year, and then the profit as a sponsor, right as an indicator, the product It is down the line, a few years down the road. Brian: Yeah, that's exactly it. Like I said investors want to see their sponsor is getting a payday, not a paycheck. If you perform for them, then you do well. And if you don't perform for them, then you don't do so well. So certainly assuming you did your job right, the profit potential is pretty substantial. Don: But, something Robert Kiyosaki changed my life twice. Once was when he wrote 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad.' We all did read this book and got influenced by it. And if you didn't, then you should, because it's like I would consider that the Bible for real estate investing and investing in general. The second time he changed my life was actually when he wrote his book 'Fake,' which he talks about how money is not real and how money is a depreciating asset and why you should never have it, why you should never hold any money. And that's so true when you are trying to get wealthy and I think it's something you understand once you've made some money in your life because you realize that it's not real. But the things that money can buy, it just pays the bills. But if you try to get rich, then the only way to do that is to equity, which is what you're doing right? Brian: That's exactly right. Don: I think once this light bulb goes off and you get that principle, then you're okay with putting all the work and assembling a deal and improving the deal and stabilizing these properties that you're buying, just so you can get wealthier down the road. Because in theory, you are already wealthier because you have equity in the property. So, it doesn't matter. Brian: Yeah, you've got the equity and assuming that the market doesn't turn against you and take the equity back from you, that's happened before too. You saw what happened in 2005 through 2007. Equity is fleeting, so it's 100% true, everything you just said. But there is something to be said for keeping some cash for a rainy day and always having reserves and kind of living a little bit of a low leverage lifestyle. The people with the most leverage were the ones that got hurt the most. And it's funny when you live through an economic downturn like I have and managed to survive it, you see the risk that leverage ads and so you have to strike a good balance and you want equity and you want to use debt smartly to help improve your position.  But at the same time, you don't want to over-leverage and you want to keep a safety net. You get it, you guys have built your business completely with equity without debt here so far and seeing what that's enabled you to do. And now you can use debt smartly, to help grow your portfolio. And I think everybody needs to watch that as an example of how to do it the right way, and the safe way. Don: Yeah, I think the main reason why we were able to pull this off was that we were making money in two streams, right. So, one stream was our business, our wholesale business, which created nice paychecks and nice paydays the way you call it before. And it's an accurate way to call it because when you make paydays, then you're able to buy properties and create wealth. And so that was the second way that we've created the portfolio that we own right now, through equity. The equity is the transactions that we made. We never live a lavish lifestyle. And it's different than most people here, Miami because, I don't know if you've been here but if you drive in the streets here, then you're going to see a Ferrari or a Lambo everyday second turn. And that's a lifestyle in Miami.  Being a successful investor here in South Florida, we were able to resist that temptation, to invest the money where it should be parked, which is, in my opinion, real estate and stocks and property and equity. There's a beautiful saying that affected me tremendously, "Rich people are busy making money while poor people are busy showing off money that they don't have." Brian: Right. Yeah, you could certainly see a lot of evidence of that around, that's for sure. Don: Definitely. And especially today with social media, everybody's trying to show off, everybody's trying to faking it till they're making it. You're not going to make it, you're going to blow your first 10K on a Rolex. You should be blowing it on education. That's not even blowing it, that's investing and that's the difference, right? So that's what I think like an investor as I'm growing. Of course, I still have a lot to learn and I interview people like you, people that have made it bigger than me, the people that come to the show they have the same perspectives and the same lifestyle as well. Brian: It's just a matter of prioritizing and realizing that the first thing you've got to do is invest for your future. And it's like I spent almost every dime I had investing in more real estate and more real estate. And so, it's enabled me to accumulate a fairly large portfolio of rental homes just for my own, basically, my retirement plan. I don't get any cash flow off of them because I had them all financed on 15-year loans. So that way, they'll be completely paid off when I'm ready to step back and slow down. And it's a sacrifice now because if the property needs to be repaired, I'm probably pulling that repair out of my pocket and kind of negative cash flow, but I look at it as like a deposit into that savings account, right? And then eventually I'm going to have 40 or some rental units that will be completely paid for and cash flowing for me with no debt and right at the time, I would need it the most. So, it's sacrifice now, but it's a payoff later. Don: Definitely. So, let's talk about the future that a bit since we're already talking about it. What would your thoughts on the multi-family market right now and where it's going because I know it's a little bit overheated, a lot of people want to buy multifamily? And I know people buying properties for five and a half cap rate, which is pretty expensive in my opinion. What do you think about the market and where it's going? Brian: Yeah, you're right, the cap rates are low. And we're buying stuff at five and a half and six caps too. So, I get it, it's where the market is right now. And certainly, real estate is desirable, but it's desirable for a reason. And then, the reason is supported by fundamentals. And that's why pricing is so high right now. And one of the most common questions I get is, what inning are we in and everybody wants me to say that we're in the eighth or ninth inning and this is all going to change soon there's going to be a big downturn, you're going to be able to come in and scoop up properties at a big discount. I just don't believe any of that's about to happen, and doesn't matter what anymore because anybody knows that a game can go into overtime and a game can be rained out early, and can't just say that every game nine innings.  So, we're not at the bottom of the cycle. And if we are at the top, what does the top look like? I think that a top when we reach one if we haven't already, it just looks like a plateau in pricing where we take a pause and the economy catches up to where we are and valuations are still fully supported with incomes right now, even where they stand today. So, I don't think there's going to be a big downturn or a big buying opportunity anytime soon like some people are holding off for. When that does happen, maybe prices have gone up another 20% then they fall 10%. And if they would have got in today, they would have made 10%. But instead, they're going to buy them and gain nothing. So, we're still buying and I think one of my defense mechanisms is to buy in strong markets that have population growth, job growth, and income growth and that gives me a hedge against the downside. I think it's important to do that. It's tough out there. We have to look at about a thousand deals to buy one. Don: It looks like a shiny market. Everything's growing. The population is growing. The jobs are growing and so yeah, everybody would probably want to buy it there. But we're already talking about that, what would you say that market is? Where are you looking right now for properties? Brian: We're looking in Phoenix, Arizona, Las Vegas, Nevada, Atlanta, Georgia, northern and central Florida, specifically Tampa, Orlando, North Carolina, such as the Research Triangle market, Charlotte, a little bit here and there of Texas. But I think Texas is way overbought. So, we're kind of scaling back in Texas. We still own there, but we're net sellers in Texas. I love to find something in Nashville, but there's very little product coming out of that area. So primarily, I think, Arizona and Nevada, Georgia and Florida are primary markets. Don: So, you're looking at a lot of markets, and how do you analyze all the deals that are coming your way? I guess you got to have some help, right? Brian: Yeah, we've got a fairly robust team here. I've got two other guys on the acquisition side and one analyst. So, we've, every time a new opportunity comes to us, my chief investment officer will do a quick prescreen. If it passes a certain series of tests, it goes to our analysts to build a financial model. And then it goes back to our chief investment officer or our CFO who is like a co-Chief Investment Officer. And then they review the deal and tour it and talk to the brokers and run the comps and tour the comps and do all those other tasks. Our businesses grown pretty substantially, we're vertically integrated. So, we have our own management company and we manage our assets, which means we have employees on the ground, in all the areas where we operate.  So for example, we toured a couple of assets the other day, and it just turns out that we had our manager go with our acquisitions guy and manager knows the manager of one of the properties because they used to work together at one of our properties actually, and so, we have kind of a little bit of good rapport there and can learn more about the property because those relationships. So, we've well ingrained in the markets that we're in, we have people on the ground and the markets that we're in, and we have full control over the whole process. So I'm lucky that between me and my CIO, my CFO and the CEO of my property management company, between the four of us, we have 100,000 units of multifamily experience going back as long as 40 years and it gives us a good leg up on being able to stay on top of the markets in the assets. Don: That's not something you can easily find as an investor or a passive investor who's looking to invest with a sponsor. I mean, your team sounds very professional and experienced and you guys are exploring many markets and have years of experience. So, if I was looking to invest as a limited partner, I would give you guys a call. And speaking of which, if anybody wants to connect with you and get to know a little bit more about what you're doing and your projects and your future deals, what would be the best way to do that Brian: Probably the best way to reach us is through our website. Which is PRAXCAP.COM or a company's Praxis Capital and our website is P R A X C A P. C O M and on there, there are contact forms and you can fill out and our senior vice president and investor relations will set up phone calls. And we'll get to know you and establish your relationship before we start talking about deals. That's probably the best way. You can also find me on biggerpockets.com which is a real estate forum website where people ask questions and get answers about all kinds of real estate topics. I'm pretty active there and love to answer people's questions on that website when they post in the forum. So those are probably the best two ways. Don: All right, Brian, awesome. Thank you so much for that. And thank you so much for the insights that you gave us today. And of course, most importantly, time is the most valuable asset and therefore I want to thank you for investing the time to come to the show today. We appreciate it. I hope you're going to have a great day. Brian: Thanks, Don. I appreciate you having me on the show. I had a great time and humbled and appreciative to be a part of it. Thank you for having me on. Don: You're welcome. Thank you very much, Brian. Brian: Sure thing. Lady: Thanks for listening to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time!

In today’s episode, we have the pleasure of featuring a well known & respected mobile home park guru, Kevin Bupp. He entered the real estate world at the young age of 19 where he started with single-family residential real estate. As time went on, he learned about commercial real estate and grew his portfolio- right before the crash of 2008. Like everything, you live and learn- and that’s what Kevin did. He did some soul searching and wanted to focus on his hobbies of health and fitness. He took some time off of real estate and built a company around custom cycling clothes and ran a social club 'Running For Brews.’ However, Kevin still had that real estate fire in him and his vision changed after a lunch meeting. Kevin became intrigued in mobile home parks and he owns several of them throughout the US. In today’s episode, he discusses how and why he chose mobile home parks in this second round of his career, the factors of a good deal & how to find them, and the importance of being in a good headspace.  Episode Highlights: How Things Affected His Business In The Early 2000s 2012 Tragedy And Onwards The World of Mobile Home Parks Where To Learn About Investing In Mobile Home Parks   Connect with Kevin Website: Kevinbupp.com Company Website: sunrisecapitalinvestors.com Podcast: Real Estate Investing for Cash Flow  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION  Intro: Hey guys, today I'm very excited to discuss one of the most intriguing asset classes and one that is known to have caught my attention at least. And of course, I'm talking about mobile home parks. Mobile home parks are one of my primary targets as an investor because I truly believe that to create long term wealth, there is nothing better than buying a piece of land. And if that land also happens to be a cash cow, then I'm all in. I think mobile home parks are just that. So, in today's episode, I'm going to host Kevin Bupp who has a truly remarkable story and is considered a guru when it comes to mobile home parks. So, let's get going. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: Alright, hey, Kevin. Welcome to the show. Kevin: Hey, Don, thanks for having me. I'm looking forward to it. Don: Of course I was looking forward to it as well because I know you're one of the best mobile home park investors out there. So, I'm very happy to have you on the show because it's not a secret that I'm very interested in mobile home parks. But first, I'm going to ask you a little bit about your career and how you got started so my audience could get to know you a little bit better. Kevin: Sure. Mobile home parks have been our focus for the past seven years. However, it's not really where I got started. Like a lot of folks, I got started in single-family residential real estate. It was introduced to me or I was introduced to it back when I was 19 years old. Ultimately took me about a year and a half to buy my first property and spent the next couple of years following that introduction to residential focusing on building a single-family rental portfolio. And that's the direction of my mentor at that time. That's exactly what his business model was. So, I just followed it to a tee. We would only ever wholesale or flip a home when we needed to build up capital reserves. But the long term intent was to always build a portfolio for long term cash flow. At some point during the first couple of years, I was introduced to the world of commercial real estate more specifically multifamily property and so we started diving into the multifamily space as well. This is back pre-2008. This is back in 2002-2007, leading up to '08. So, we had built quite a large portfolio of single-family properties and instead of acquiring apartment complexes as well, along with other miscellaneous commercial real estate. Don: Sounds risky build up a big portfolio just before 2008. So, did it end well? Kevin: Well, if I had a crystal ball, I surely would have planned slightly differently, right? No, it didn't end well at all. We're down in Southwest Florida pretty much ground zero, one of the ground zeroes for the real estate crash and crisis. It was a very challenging time. The single-family market down here suffered greatly, not just from a value perspective, all of our properties have a lot of equity. We had a very low leverage point we thought was a very conservative leverage point in our single-family properties. But what we found is within a year period of time slightly less, most, if not all of them were upside down in value. Don: It's like the worst nightmare for every investor. What happened to you? You were investing in single families in Florida before 2008. That's the worst-case scenario. Kevin: Yeah, and it wasn't just the values it was a rental, the occupancy got affected, a lot of people are leaving Florida back then there weren't jobs, a lot of the jobs, were heavily relying on real estate, the growth of real estate, you know, building and development practices. So we had to hit to our rental premiums that were charged, and we had to start offering concessions, and your rents don't always continually go up, there are certain points in times where rents can be affected, and you might have a little more of a challenging time occupying your units will take longer than usual, you might have to give some concessions away, couple free months of rent or a discounted rent for the first couple of months. So, we had to do that, we had to do all the above.  It just was very, very hard to maintain the status quo when we had a portfolio that was underwater. In addition to that, it was negative cash flow, and it went from positive to a negative cash flow standpoint, you can't sustain that for very long least we couldn't. I didn't have $20 million sitting in the bank that could just keep feeding this beast and so we hung on for as long as we could. But ultimately, we were forced to essentially give back a lot of our portfolio to the banks. At that point, the banks didn't have the loss mitigation departments. This was very fresh. Most banks were forced to create those departments within their company to do workouts and loan modifications. However, that did not exist. The first year when things started going completely haywire, and so none of the banks were willing to work with us whatsoever. That's the last thing they wanted to discuss was that loan workout. We really did what we had to do and we tried to hold on as long as we could and ultimately had to get back a lot of what we had built over the years. Don: Okay, so when you say give back, I assume it was a deed in lieu? Foreclosure, right? Kevin: We had hundreds of properties. So, deed in lieu, some of the banks were so in disorganization at that point that they just didn't, there was a way we could speak with just ultimately went through the judicial process and went through foreclosure. We would short sell whatever we could just that we tried to work with the banks as much as possible. We were here, we were open, we're open-minded and willing to work with them. And so, some of the banks worked with us through short sales, we did that.  Others again, there was no communication, there was no dialogue and so, those ultimately went through the judicial foreclosure process somewhere deed in lieu or willing to do whatever we could to ease the process on both sides. But again, there wasn't much organization with a lot of banks in the first couple of years of the crash. Now every bank has a loss mitigation department. There are people, there's a dedicated department to deal with loan modifications and doing reworks with borrowers. That didn't exist. It just didn't exist back then. Don: Of course. Going a little bit forward, then it's 2012. I know you made your first mobile home park deal, right? Kevin: That's correct. Yeah, took a couple of years off a real estate. Well, I shouldn't have I kind of kicked myself in the butt now. But it was damage control for a number of years. It was very hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel. And it's not a sob story. I've learned a lot from it. I lost my personal residence and got bank accounts got garnished. It was a very ugly personal time for me. I'm still young at heart today but I mean, I was in my 20s. And I'd never gone through something like this before. I've only ever experienced the positives of real estate. It was a lot to consume and to digest. I knew that I needed to focus on my health and fitness. And so, I started a few other businesses that were directly related to the health and fitness industry and that allowed me to number one, create some revenue and income for myself because I was broke. I mean, I'd have anything and my bank account got garnished.  Don: What kind of business? Kevin: I started two different companies. One was a custom clothing company. I was a big runner, and I'm a cyclist, triathlete. And so, I was already ingrained in that community. And there was a huge need for custom cycling clothes and also running clothes for big events that we got into the sublimation business. I knew nothing about it before just watch some YouTube videos and did a bunch of my research and ultimately built a printing company. In addition to that, I love craft beer, and I love running as well. I thought there might be a great marriage. This is back again in like 2009 craft beer was kicking off. It wasn't as big as what it is today, but it was on a roll.  So, I started a social running club that was called 'Running For Brews', and once a week and a set location, we meet for a social run. And afterward we have been at a local brewery and we ultimately ended up opening up 45 locations throughout the country. The bars we charge them for basically bringing people every week to the bar so we get paid based on the amount of attendance we had. It was a fun business. It was one allowed me to be in direct alignment with my interest and also stay healthy and fit as well. Because again, every week we were meeting and going for social runs, 5K's, 10 K's, what have you. And so, it didn't kill the world. We weren't making millions of dollars with it but it was a fun revenue-generating business for us. And then the printing company as well. So those two things allowed me to really tie together my hobbies, health, and fitness and also generate income while I was trying to work through the mess that I had been experiencing with the real estate downturn. Don: Nice. Yeah, I think it's very important to do things you love. I've had some rough times as well. And then I found out that my hobbies are the ones that really saved me and got me back to become a lucid person again. I like to skate, you would never know if you see me dressed up work, you'd never know. But if I need to clear my mind, I just go out and skate and do something. I'm sure you've done that and that helped you a lot with mood and willpower, right? Kevin: That's the one thing that I realized is that everything else was out of my control. My credit was shot, I was getting calls every day from creditors. There were a lot of things that were outside of my control. The one thing I could control was how I felt and how I dealt with these challenging times these days and months that were lying ahead. Being in peak shape, both mentally and physically surely helped me get through those times. I mean, if I had just sat around and ate a bunch of cupcakes and drank a bunch of beer and got overweight and lazy, I'm sure my mental fitness surely would not be in tip-top shape. Don: Let's talk about 2012, where you got back to real estate after the trauma that you've been through with establishing a very serious portfolio and then losing most of it in the crisis. Then you got back to real estate, which is I believe, you know, once you do real estate and you're successful, it doesn't matter what happened, you going to get back to it, right? Kevin: Yeah, that fire was inside me. I tried to pull out or once in a while during those tough years, and I wish I would have looked at it differently. I think if it ever happened again, I would have a different perspective. And everyone knows the old saying of ‘buy when there's blood in the street’, it's just really hard to put that theory to work when its blood that's out in the street, right? It's really hard to think about it when you're inside that bubble. But I think looking back I did the best I could. And I had that fire burning, things were looking better. I was in a better situation all around. I've gotten married to the love of my life, still married to her today, she dealt with me through those downtimes. We got married in 2010. So, she was with me during some really hard times. Life was looking great, didn't have good credit yet. Still, we're working through some financial challenges, everything else was just lining up perfectly.  I knew I would get back into real estate, I knew I wanted to get that fire just glowing again. I look back and reflect on what I would have done differently or what mistakes I might have made back during my earlier years prior to the crash. What would the second round look like? Was it going to look the same or am I going to change my business model a little bit? What I realized is that I put a lot of time and energy into buying 120 plus single-family properties for the rental portfolio. I wasn't married, enjoyed what I did, but I put a lot of long hours and which is fine. I mean, you got to work your butt off.  However, I knew there was a more efficient way kind of reflected back and I compared to my apartment complexes that we owned to the single-family properties and realize that we didn't put nearly as much effort into acquiring 500 doors, apartment doors as we did acquiring 120 single-family rentals and those apartments to seem to kind of chug along, whereas the rentals were scattered amongst three different counties. They were inefficient to operate. I just knew that moving forward, I didn't want to have to rebuild a single-family home portfolio. It wasn't a good fit. It wouldn't allow me to scale fast. I wanted to regrow things or rebuild things much faster than I had done it before. I knew that multifamily is a way to do that. I understood residential real estate.  I knew that apartments were going to be a good fit for me and during that kind of journey of learning how the landscape has changed even the apartment space, I got introduced to a guy by the name of Randy. Randy owns mobile home parks here in Florida. He owned three of them had been a banker for his entire life, did a lot of lending on mobile home parks here in Florida and ultimately retired from the bank and went out and bought three fairly large mobile home communities and had lunch with Randy were introduced by a mutual friend. I had lunch with Randy one day just not interested in mobile home parks, but just really to meet someone new and I left that two-hour lunch meeting with Randy with a newfound interest in the mobile home park.  He piqued my interest in many different ways that I had never even thought about as it relates to investing in parks and I left that meeting confirming that I was going to give the next 12 months of my life to learning everything I could about mobile home parks, not just learning it, but going on actually putting the use of buying a park. So, I was going to buy a park and either prove or disprove all the great things that Randy had said about the niche. So that's what I did. I went out and did that. So, this was like 2011 when I met Randy, and so in late 2012, bought our first Park up in Atlanta, Georgia still owns it today.  The smaller community, it's the smallest thing that we own. However, we bought it at the right price, it's a great location. And the thing kicks out money every month without fail, bought that one, really enjoyed how it went. Bought the second one, which up in North Carolina bought a third one bought the fourth one and the story evolves forward seven years later, got communities and 11 different states right now and this has been our core business for the last seven years. So really, it has been very lucrative for us, it has been a lot of fun. It's a phenomenal niche. You've come into it, Don. I know you're looking to buy your first park so there's been a lot of things that have piqued your interest in this niche. Same things that probably peaked mine seven years ago. And we just took it and ran with it. So that's where we're at today. Don: I could tell you what I'm thinking about mobile home parks and where I'm coming from, I'm coming from owning a single-family portfolio as well. I'm also developing 30 units here in Hollywood, Florida. I'm developing the entire thing from the ground, it's going to be in A-class building, it’s going to be great, close to the beach. So, it's a great area. But somebody had a discussion with me, which also piqued my interest in mobile home parks for a few reasons. I can tell you what I'm thinking, and I want to know what you're thinking about this because I know you're the expert of them. So, here's what I'm thinking. I'm thinking that there are a few reasons why I'm interested in them. The first one is because they're not zoning for them anymore. So, it's just a fundamental of supply and demand. That's like the most basic thing in the universe. Supply, demand. If you have something that has more demand than supply, then you should try to get that thing for a good deal. So, they don't zone for them because they don't make as well as an income for the cities, as much as the multifamily would as far as property taxes from what I understand, maybe there are other reasons. So that's one reason.  The second reason is that it's just not getting any cheaper and it's not getting any easier to find affordable housing in America. Some so many people have section eight vouchers but can't find homes and the population is growing. So, I don't see any stop to that, I just see how you know, we keep growing as far as that number and the gap between the rich and poor, that's not going anywhere as well. So, when rents are going to get compressed, how compressed are they going to get so that mobile home parks are going to go down in the price? That's the reason. The last reason is that its land. So, it's God's money. When bitcoins replace dollars and when the currency changes in the next 10 years or 20 years, the land is always going to be worth a lot of money. I think buying a mobile home park, close to downtown is a long term investment. It's the best investment you could make, because in cash flows and it's going to appreciate in a tremendous way. If somebody who owns a car dealership is going to want to buy our lot because there is no other land to buy it and they could pay you $15 million in 20 years in today's money. That's what I'm thinking. Am I right? Kevin: I think you hit all relevant points. And it's a great covered land play. We're not a speculative buyer. So, we don't buy our mobile home parks with the intent that there's going to be a higher and better use in 10 or 15, 20 years, we buy it for the income that's being generated as a mobile home community. However, we look at the higher and better use as icing on the cake. If you're within the path of progress or anywhere in its path, even if it takes 15, 20, 30 years to get to you, that land at some point in time should have a higher value than what it does today.  Having a mobile home or mobile homes on that site paying you lot rent. People need a roof over their heads. It's a great way to cover the cost of owning that land and generate some income until that higher and better use comes along. So now, I wholeheartedly agree. I mean, it's a parking lot. It's kind of the same idea behind investing a parking lots like you see parking lots is urban core districts, downtown business districts. What a great covered land play. You've got basically a demand for parking, you got a prime piece of real estate at some point in time or another, those surface parking lots are going to have a much higher better using that could be high rise office building apartment complex, what have you, and I feel mobile home parks are very similar nature. Don: Okay, so let's talk about your criteria and your experience. So, what have you learned about investing in mobile home parks? What is it that you're looking for? Like when you see a deal, how do you know it's a good deal? Kevin: A good deal has a different definition for everybody. A lot of it depends on Is it a long term strategy, is it a short term strategy. For us, we like to look at things as though we're going to own them for 7 to 10 years if not longer than that, ideally longer than that, right? We have bought and sold things in the past. However, going into them, we pretty much decided that, that is that type of deal. Like we're going to get in here turn around, and we're not going to keep it for whatever reason that is we're going to look to flip it here in the next year or two. But as far as long term strategy, we know number one, speaking about the demographics, we want to be an area that is economically sound, that doesn't have a diminishing population to it, we want to be an area that has a strong median home price, strong median rental price as well, so that we know there's a demand for affordable housing.  You know, we wouldn't have been an area that's got a diverse employment base as well. We want to know there are jobs available for our workers. Generally speaking, that's the demographics that we're seeking. As far as the deal itself, there are certain targets we have investors that we have to meet the demands of and so for us, we look at what kind of cash on cash return in this park generate, not just from day one, but look at year one, year three, year five, you know, what does the long term projection look like in this community? Where can we get it to go, where's the value add components and what's realistic of what we truly achieve in that given time, and our target then between year one and year two, is to be somewhere in the 12% to 13% cash on cash range, so that number is kind of changed over time.  I could tell you that things have gotten a lot tighter, cap rates are going to press quite a great deal in our space, and the types of deals we were buying four years ago, you're not seeing as much of anymore back then we could easily be getting 15%, 16%, 17% cash on cash returns, sometimes upwards of 20% cash on cash returns quite often. It's getting a lot tighter lot harder to find those types of opportunities today, however, we still like to hit those lower double-digit cash on cash returns between year one and year two, and sometimes sooner, sometimes it might take a little longer. But that's really what the target is that we're reaching for. And that's a leveraged return, that's assuming that we're going to put some type of debt in place. The normal debt that we underwrite with is 70% loan to value 20-year amortization. Unless we know that it absolutely from day one will go either with CMBS or a Fannie or Freddie loan. In that case, typically, it's going to be in the 75% loan to value range in a 30-year amortization. Right now the rates are somewhere in the low foursome are actually below four, depending on what rate of an asset it is. So I'm not sure if that answers your question, Don, but what we're kind of looking for it doesn't mean that folks are out there hunting if it doesn't meet the criteria I just gave you, it's not a good deal because that just means it's a good deal for us and that actually fits our buying criteria.  As far as like quality of assets, I say the one big thing that's changed for us over the last couple of years, not that we would ever buy low-quality assets, however, we're much more picky with the great asset that will buy today than what it might have been maybe five years ago. It's one of those things from a bandwidth perspective, you're always you're buying or dogs wanting to start parks. it's manageable when you're small when you've got a few communities, but just know that those dogs, if they're in a primary that might be different because you can always change the tenant base if you've got just a phenomenal location area. But if you're an okay area, but you got a low demographic that you're serving in your park, it might not ever be more than what it is there today, you know, and so you might just have a little bit more of a challenging demographic that you're serving. And it gets to a certain point where that's just not scalable. At least that's what we found when you're putting out a million fires left and right because you got an older park, it's kind of got a rougher tenant base that is just very demanding.  You're always fighting them to get your payments on time. It's got a really old infrastructure that you're always repairing. Your bandwidth gets stretched very thin very quickly if you tried to own 10, 20, 30 of those parks, and so we're very particular nowadays with not just the quality the park itself above the ground, but also below the ground. What does that infrastructure look like, be very particular about what's the useful life that's there is there 10 years left in the water and sewer lines? Are there five years or 20 years? When was the park built? How about the roads themselves? What condition they're in? And how are they going to hold up over time? So we really put a lot emphasis on that, because we want to know that, number one, the tenant base that we're serving isn't going to be overwhelming for us that they're going to be just a good solid tenant base, but also the park itself, the infrastructure that we're not going to get surprised 10 years down the road with some major infrastructure improvements that we hadn't planned for. Lots of parks out there were built 60-70 years ago. Pipes don't last forever, sewer systems don't last forever, wastewater treatment plants don't last forever, and they're incredibly expensive to replace. Anyway, that's just some of the things that we look for out there searching. Don: I want to ask you a few questions about that. Because from the way you say it, it looks like you guys are looking to buy parks that are already established, occupied, are in good shape, but how could you get like that? Kevin: Yeah, give you an example. We got a parking contract right now, this is probably a perfect example for us. There's a park down in Texas, we're not closed yet, we're in contract for some I'm not going to mention the actual city and state or I'm not going to mention the city but it's in Texas. It's 204 lots and total. Still, this is a good example to use. So, this park, it's got 151 mobile home pads and then the remainder is RV pads, which is kind of a hybrid so it's not 100% mobile home. However, the RV-ers are long term. There are some folks that live there for like three, four years, it's very much a permanent type establishment. The mobile home lots of 149 of 151 are occupied and 26 of the RV lots of the 51 are occupied.  From a revenue perspective, the park is fairly stable, the lot rents are at 375 they could easily go to probably 450 so it's got some move to run on the rents already. It's got city water and sewer it's already being built back so there's not a lot of recapture or revenue to be had thereby building back the water and sewer. They do have some recapture issues but not big ones, you know, things that are fairly easy for us to go in and fix probably a couple of water leaks and a few people that aren't paying their bills as they should be. But generally speaking, that upside has been kind of removed as well. However, where the upside in this park lies, is it looks like crap. The infrastructure is good. The water and sewer are good. It was built to the right specs. It's laid out well, however, the family that's owned it for the past 40 plus years, they just haven't enforced any rules at all. These are all 10 own homes.  There are no park own homes here. I'd say maybe only a handful of homes have actual skirting and so the park looks loud. Hell, it looks horrible. The roads aren't in great shape against got good infrastructure there it was planned out well as far as layouts are concerned. All the lots are a big enough size to where they can fit. newer model single-wide some double-wide. It's got paved two car parking in each home. However, there are cars all over the place. It's more of a cosmetic type deal for us to go and improve other than raising the rents themselves. So, our intent with that one we're buying it for $5.65 million. More than likely what the first 12-18 months will look like there is trying to fix the minor water recapture issues that are going on.  There's about $65,000 of water and sewer that's going somewhere and it's not getting recaptured. I don't know if it's a big water leak or what but we're going to fix that. Normally, it's pretty easy to kind of narrow down what the issue is there either if people aren't paying it, or there's a water leak in the water is going into the ground, one of those two things. We're going to do that we're going to go in and skirt every single home. It's going to cost us $150,000 to do it, but it's going to make that park look like a completely different part just by doing that every home will have a new skirting unit the home itself looks kind of like crap. It will look a million times better with skirting around it. We're going to do a massive community cleanup. There's lots of untagged vehicles, lots of crap around the houses, we're probably going to spend upwards of $50,000 just by buying renting 30, 40 yard dumpsters to get in there, get some labor in there to help people clean your mess up that they've created over the past 10, 15, 20 years.  We're going to fix the roads by about $150,000 worth of road repair that is needed in that park and then the RV lots there's 25 that are empty right now all the hookups are there. I did some test ads to see what the demand was for a one-bedroom, one-bath park model home they'll park miles like one of the small little 99 square foot homes. Within 24 hours we had like 55 inquiries on Facebook so there's a great demand for that type of product in that marketplace. So, we're going to go by 26 park model homes and fill in those remainder of RV pads or if any of the other RV lots turn in the meantime we'll bring in a park model home. That way it looks more like a mobile home park then it does a mobile home park with an RV section with like fifth wheels and travel campers and things like that. So, we'll do that over this period of the first 12-18 months. We'll get rents up. I don't know if we're going to push them to $450 relegate but we'll get them over $400.  Now here's the best part about this. It's in the best part of town it's a right down the road from a Country Club. It's right behind. It's probably one of the nice neighborhoods in the area. All the major retailers are within a block away so if you got a good arm you can throw a stone that far. It's very close by so it's in the best part of town however it looks like death. But the revenues coming in such a desirable area and the schools are so good right there that the park is full the vans full however it looks horrible, and so it had been on the market for a while for a much higher price and it just hadn't sold because it looks scares people away. However, I can see the underlying beauty because I know that the location in the market changes everything. I can easily take what's there now because I know there's enough people that are banging at the door to get in saying, ''Hey, I would love to live here and raise my family here because it's such a great part of town and great schools," that if I lose some of the bad people that are there, I know I'll fill those places right back in with good people.  However, this park was in like the other side of town, it wouldn't be a good deal to me at all, I would never be able to make it look better than what it does today. Even if I put money into it, it would revert to its old self very quickly, and it would never be a strong operator. Collections are phenomenal revenues high, we can get the rents to $450 within the first two years will bail turn around and sell this market we choose to pry for slightly over $10 million is what the evaluation will come in at. If we fill in the park models, get the lot rents up to $450, fix the water recapture problem and aesthetically improve the park which will help drive down that cap rate on the sales side that it becomes all day every day at $10 million parks. Don: So okay, so let's talk about the numbers. So right now you're buying it based on the income I assume, right? Kevin: Yeah, it's about a seven cap. Now we're buying it out. Don: It's a seven cap. What would you say right now is the renovations that it requires as far as the dollar amount. Kevin: About a half-million dollars. Don: Half a million. So, you're buying it for 5.56? Right? Kevin: We're buying a 5.65. And then we got about a half million. Yeah. Don: Okay. You got to be a little bit over 6 million, right? Kevin: Correct. Don: Okay, so how are you going to bring the park into a valuation of 10 million? Is that because you're going to sell it on a lower cap rate? It's almost an institutional park. Right. The buyer for that is institutional. Kevin: So, it would it will be when we're done with it. Yeah, right now, not even close. But it will be when we're done with it. We evaluated a six and a half cap was where we ran it at. Don: That's your exit point? Kevin: Yeah, that'd be the exit point. Things in Texas right now in this market are trading for like five and a half cap. So, but we were low conservative with the exit there in case it fluctuates. Six and a half cap is what we used. Don: What's the NOI of the park if I may ask you right now. Kevin: Yeah, I don't know. Don, I couldn't do that. I'd be lying if I gave you a number right now. Don: But you're saying you could increase the NOI by roughly 35%? Kevin: That's correct. From a rent increase from a, there's like $120,000 worth of payroll in this park. So, there are lots of family members working there, there's a lot of expense line items that can be shaved down as well. Payroll being one big one. As I said, there's about a $65,000 water recapture issue that's happening. I'm not sure where it's going. It's either people aren't being charged, or there's a pretty massive leak.  Just between that and payroll alone, there's $100,000 of additional revenue to be had. Filling in the remainder of the RV lots that are there with park model homes is a major boom, thinking assuming that you're in the 450 range as far as lot rents are concerned. Adding those 26 homes there is a major boom for that park as far as revenue and then if you raise the rents on the remainder of the park, and you get to that $450 mark, which is $75 above where it's at today. Let's just say that on all 200 lots in that park that we were able to achieve another $75 of revenue so that's another $180,000 a year of annual income that doesn't have any costs associated with it other than a rent letter increase going out. There are no additional costs associated with achieving that additional revenue. So just between that and shaving off some of the lifetime expenses, there's $280,000 of additional revenue there to be had. Don: Okay, so I want to ask you a question regarding buying a park that is currently in such a bad situation and condition that it doesn't cash flow, or it does, but not enough. So, it could be, you know, sometimes don't have negative cash flow. So, is that something that you recommend if there's a solid value on them, or that's something you would never do? You always want to buy something that cash flows right now. And so, when you buy it from day one, you already make money? Kevin: This one will cash flow. So, this one will support itself. We're not going to pay for all these improvements out of the cash flow. That's just a bad plan altogether. So, we're going to put up all this capX money as of right from the get-go. This is going to be funded right in the beginning. So, this one, not that situation. This one supports itself. Would we get into it if it didn't support itself? Probably not. It's just there's a lot of risks there on that size of a deal. If it truly is a negative cash flow. I feel very confident about it, but the timing gets Off relatively quickly, when you have such a major renovation project, just lining up crews and contractors. Missing a year off deadline on a big project like this is not unheard of, it could be very commonplace.  So, it gets very expensive if you're truly losing money on a monthly basis, and you missed the target by a year of when these parks ready. So, if we're off by six months or a year, the park still makes money and still makes sense. It's still generating good levered cash on cash return while we're making these improvements. Now, there's a park we got in Georgia. Going into it, we knew number one, we didn't want to be in that marketplace. I didn't like the market all that well. However, what we're buying the park for, it was kind of like, there's no way we can lose here, especially based on the time that we can get the timing right of getting this place cleaned up and renovated, some of these homes so that we should be able to get in and get out and should have little to no risk associated with it. That's what we did took us about 18 months to get in and clean the place up.  We did it with the intent of not taking any cash flow out the place didn't pay for itself. I guess we probably could have taken some cash flow at some point or we just put it all back in property and got it cleaned up, got it stabilized, and then turned around and sold it to a cash buyer and moved on to the next. So that one, we felt confident we had such a low basis in it. However, it's your first deal, and you gotta make it work, I will probably move away from something like that, man, there's just so many things that can go wrong. And it's like you've got all your life savings sunken into this thing or if you got your money and your investors money, but yet, you've never actually done a deal like that before, and you don't have a plan B, then I think it's incredibly risky. I think there's easier ways to make money than to do that, the model I just shared with you. However, I've got experience doing it, I've done it before and allow the money than deal with my own money in a wouldn't have sunk me if that deal wouldn't have gone as planned. And again, our basis was so low that it would have been very hard for us to lose. Don: I understand. Okay, so let's talk about how you find these deals because I know that's a big deal. That's 200 and some spaces, it's more of the institutional buyers typically the people are going to look for that. So how do you find these deals? Kevin: We got a lot of relationships with brokers, but I will say that the majority of the deals that we own today and that we have in our pipeline are due to our efforts. And that is direct mail, pick up the phone and cold call owners. And we take on the role of a broker. I mean, we identify parks in certain markets that we like, and we try to build a rapport with the owner or someone in the family that has ownership of that property. And this particular deal in Texas I gave you, you say it's an institutional it will be. However, it's not today, no institution, the right mind would touch this thing in the current condition that it's in. However, I know that it will be an institutional play once we're done with it. So that's where we hope to get it but that one was found via cold call, it was listed when we called on it.  However, it was not listed on like loop net or any of the big commercial side that had a local commercial broker that had it marketed. I don't know where the heck he was marketing and Don, I'd never seen it before and normally I see pretty much everything that gets on the market. He had been asking, I think over $8 million for I think eight and a half million or something like that. He's not a mobile home park broker. He didn't understand the business. A lot of development happening right in this immediate area. I think that he's a little off what that lands worth. However, that's how he was marketing and it was like eight and a half million dollars. And we made a number of offers over the last six months and finally really took our offer knew we could execute on it. So that was a cold call.  We get a lot from the cold calls, we get a lot from direct mail. But our goal is to really build relationships with owners, not just send them a piece of mail saying, "Hey, we buy mobile home parks, you'll call us." That doesn't work all that well. You know, our goal with the letter is a very personalized letter. And then we typically follow up with a phone call and just say hi, say hello, go to the relationship. You get to meet these folks at industry events that they're going to be attending. If I'm going to be in the local area, if I'm visiting another property, I get on our spreadsheet, I see who else has a park in that area, how we communicate with them. So, I try to get together coffee, try to grab lunch, what have you. Just build these relationships doing the same things a lot of brokers do, but we do it on our behalf. The goal of doing that is that remove competition because as soon as it gets into a broker's hand, it's their fiduciary responsibility to get the highest dollar amount for it right even if it's a pocket listing, per se. More than likely that pocket listing is going to get handed off to a number of potential buyers. We've never sold a property directly to the owner we've always used the broker. I get their capacity and where they fit in. I just don't like being the guy on the buy-side that has to bid against five other people for the same property. So, we typically go right to the owners. Don: When you get into a mobile home park and you see that it needs a lot of work, what would you say the price per pad? Of course, I know it depends on many factors that condition but what would you say is the dollar amount you have to renovate in case you have to put roads, in case you have to work on electricity and work on the septic tanks? Kevin: I can tell you what we do as far as like setting reserves aside on an annual basis per lot per year, we set aside a certain amount of money for ongoing capital reserve items, right but as far as like day one, what's needed. It's all across the board. This park here in Texas is going to be half a million dollars, we closed on the park just a couple of months ago up in Indiana. Its pristine man. It's so nice. We're kind of joking with where do we spend 10 thousand dollars. There's not much to do at all and all the water and sewers directly built by the city, public utilities built by the city, the roads are the perfect shape, all the structures are in good shape. So, we are not putting hardly any money into and it's not because we don't want to because there's nothing to do to it, there are no improvements that make. Now that was a good deal. It's probably one of the nicest parks we own. It's gorgeous. It's an 85 lot park, 42 the lots are occupied. It's all double wides. Hundred percent double wides. We paid 750 for it. Lot rents are $317 a month in direct build city, water, city sewer. All the 85 lots are developed, all the infrastructure hookups are there for 85 homes.  However, there's only 42 in there. I'm not sure the story behind why it never really truly got off the ground, but it's a very high-end community. In fact, despite one of the nicer neighborhoods in this area to live even nicer than some stick-built homes. Some people just don't know what the heck they're doing. I mean, the guy was nice, the seller. He had known for seven years. There were three vacant double wides and then a fourth vacant double, which is the office. They have a nice office there, which will keep it as an office but it's a big double-wide so that came with the sales probably $50,000 home. And three other vacant double wides had over the last seven years, people had just abandoned. This guy never did anything with them. They have just been sitting there locked up, kind of preserved, you know, they all need some rehab. But we just got done rehabbing the first one couple weeks ago, we sold it for $23,900. Put about $9000 into it, and we got it for free. We're renovating the second one right now or I'll put about 10 or 11 into it and total renovation. And it'll probably sell for $24900. And then the third one about the same price point. So, the guy never does anything. He's double eyes. They just sat there money going down the drain. Yeah, yeah, that was a cold call effort. Don: You're going to fill out all the lots, right? Kevin: We haven't fully decided yet. I don't know what we're trying to wait and see. We bought it with the intent that it made sense even without infilling lots because it's a small town. So, we didn't run the performer based on Hey, we got to fill in X amount of loss per year because I just don't know what the demand. I'm not sure yet as to what that demand looks like and how many homes we could sell a year.  So, what we're trying to use as a determining factor is how fast he's used mobile homes will sell the ones that we acquired through the sale. As we renovate them, if I got people showing up left and right on these next couple of deals with $25,000 cash in hand, they'll tell me that there's at least a market for probably $25,000 to $35,000 homes. However, I'm still not dead set on that there's a market for $60,000 or $70,000 homes. So anyway, the next couple of months will tell us a lot as to what kind of money people have that live there. And then that will help us decide what the next steps are as far as in filling that community. So that's the plan. I just don't know how many homes a year will be that we bring in. Don: I also don't like specifically on mobile home parks talking to brokers. So, I'm also calling and doing cold calls and talking directly with sellers and I have found out that it's probably the best way to do this in this space. I don't know why, I mean in multifamily, it wasn't working quite well for me when I was trying to call the owners directly but in mobile home parks, it does. For some reason, you call people and they're nice. Why do you think that is? Kevin: I don't like being cold-called. I hate being cold-called. However, one of my business partners that I own some of my private portfolio with, he picks up the phone, anyone calls. He also talked about a lot of the owners are still of the older generation, like our parent's generation. They're nicer, they're friendlier. They're used to having conversations in person, not just on a text message. Back in their day, how they communicated, right, they spoke with each other, they had an open line of dialogue. So I think that's why 15 years from now, I think that you might find that a completely different story, as far as mobile home parks are concerned, like who the owners are on the other side and are you able to have good quality conversations with them or is it just going to be in order to take on the other side, and you will never be able to get to the decision-maker. Don: So, what do you think is the best way for somebody who's trying to learn that asset class? What do you think they should do? Is it listening to podcasts and reading books? Where do you think it is the best information? Kevin: Education is the start with everything right? Thank God today we have podcasts. There's so much free information out there. We've got a mobile home park-specific podcasts, we've got 100 plus episodes. Lots of our earlier episodes are very granular. They go into like the operational side, we go into very deep intricacies on the finding the value and underwriting a park. Go listen to, you know, the hundreds of hours where the podcasts that are out there ours and there are other ones as well that are good. There are places like bigger pockets that have a dedicated mobile home park section of their forum. There's another dedicated mobile home park forum out there, you know, so there are lots of places to get free information.  However, at some point in time, it's a matter of actively doing something. And sometimes it doesn't mean by yourself. I've always had partnerships, I enjoy it. I know what my strengths are, I know my weaknesses are. No one's good at everything. So being able to identify someone who's out there already doing it can help fast track your success in the space, find out what their weaknesses are. And maybe that's where your strengths lie, and your team up with something that's already got a little bit of traction, and has already done some deals or they're doing deals currently. You can kind of dive in and help them grow their business. That's a much faster way to do it then going at it all by yourself. However, some people don't want to partner they want to go at themselves, but you gotta take action some point of time. I'm going to buy a deal and everything that you've learned in theory, you know, will come into play. However, you'll learn things that don't pan out exactly how they did theoretically right? You learned by being in the trenches and doing a deal. Don: Of course. So, in case anybody wants to get in touch with you and kind of do something together, what is the best way to connect with you? Kevin: They can find me on my website. It's Kevinbupp.com. I do two weekly podcasts. One's real estate investing for cash flow. It's a commercial real estate investing podcast, you can find that on the kevinbupp.com website, or company website is sunrisecapitalinvestors.com. So if you want to see what we got going on the mobile home park space, that's where you can find that. And then we also have a mobile home park investing podcast. You can find any of our podcasts on iTunes, you just search my name, or search mobile home parks or real estate investing, you'll find it there. I'm not too hard to track down, Don. So, between a couple of those ways, yeah, they can't find me then they're not looking hard enough. Don: Okay. Well, Kevin, I want to thank you for being on the show today. And we appreciate all the insights you gave us. Kevin: Yeah. Thanks, Don. Thanks for having it's been a lot of fun. Don: All right. Thank you. Have a great day. Lady: Thanks for listening to the real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time.  

Douglas Skipworth has had an entrepreneurial heart from a young age. He began his journey in community banking and worked on earning his CPA and CFA certifications. Since then, he has been in the residential real estate industry for about 20 years and is passionate about partnering with others to develop thriving real estate businesses. He currently co-owns CrestCore Realty, which manages 2,500 properties in Memphis, TN. Along with his partner, they have built several real estate companies in brokerage, management, lending, and construction.  In this episode, he discusses his life and business, the advantages of community banks, ideal criteria for investing in a new deal, the importance of connecting with others and shares helpful advice on education for today’s world. Listen in as he shows us hows real estate and adding value to others tie it all together.  Episode Highlights: How Much It Helps Your Business If You Connect With More People Effects Of Borrowing Too Much Money For Education How Local Banks Help In Real Estate Investing Importance Of Establishing A Relationship With Local Community Banks Douglas’ Interest In Helping Certain Types Of People Via His Businesses   Connect with Douglas: Website: crestcore.com Email: Douglas@crestcore.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  TRANSCRIPTION  Intro: Hey guys, this is Eden your co-host. Welcome to the show where we talk about all aspects of commercial real estate investing. Today, Don is interviewing Douglas Skipworth. Doug has been investing in real estate in the past 20 years. And today he'll cover a lot of subjects including community banks, relationships in real estate and some philosophical issues like college and financial freedom through self-educating yourself with the tools that are available to us nowadays. I want to mention, again, our new website that's forming a decent shape you can visit us at DonandEden.com. Also, remember you can always reach out to us I answer all emails personally: Hello@donandeden.com. So, let's get started guys. Lady: Welcome to the commercial real estate investing podcast with Don and Eden where we cover all aspects of real estate investing with special attention to off-market strategies. Don: All right. Hey, Douglas. Welcome to the show. Douglas: Hey, Don. Great to be here. Don: Yes, I think you deserve it because you've been doing real estate since 2001. Right? Douglas: That's correct. My partner started in 2001. And I started in real estate in 2002. Between the two of us, we're going on 20 years. Don: Wow. So, you guys have been through a lot, right? So, you started, the market was going up, then there was a bubble, and then everything changed. And then you guys probably had to make some adjustments and change business models. Now, when the markets have been going up for a few good years. Douglas: Yeah, it's so funny, because I don't know when you always talk about the good old days. I don't know if the good old days were when things were running up, or the good old days, because we were, you know, we were buying and refinancing and things were great or when things kind of went bust, because that was a huge opportunity for us personally to add to our portfolio as other investors busted in community banks had deals to give away and then rates have been so low for the past 10 years that that's been a good time. So, if you kind of look back at the past 20 years it has been the good old days. Don: Yeah, I don't know who said it. I'm pretty sure it's Warren Buffett. "When there's blood on the street, buy real estate." Douglas: So true. Don: Yeah. So, tell us about the early stages of your career. How did you get started? What did you do? How did you even hear about real estate? And what were your goals at the time? Douglas: Great question. After college, I knew I wanted to start a business. So I kind of jumped into commercial banking and accounting, got my CPA and my CFA certifications to learn all I could about business and then I was working in New York City at the time and I had an opportunity to come to Memphis to work with an owner-operator of a real estate business when he was ginning up a tech company. It was kind of like a proprietary Zillow back in the early 2000s. It was a great chance for me to get on the owner-operator side of the business because I kind of knew from my first few years I wanted to be a business owner. So, I just kind of jumped in real estate tech and was learning a lot about real estate and I moved into a neighborhood and bumped into a guy who was a jogger. So, he and I started jogging together. He was in manufacturing, managing plants across the country mechanical engineer by training and he had in high school, a mentor who owned real estate and so he was building wealth through real estate while working his full-time corporate job. And I was working in real estate on a data in business side working with realtors and appraisers on the residential side. So, we had a lot of commonalities, shared some interest, but he kind of told me about what he was doing with his investing portfolio of properties, both multifamily and single-family, I got interested. So, I started doing the same thing on my own. And we would jog together and share war stories and share best practices and really developed a friendship and almost a partnership. So, we decided we wanted to try and do a deal together that neither of us had done. So, to kind of share the risk. We ended up doing a tax sale because we had never bought a tax sale, either of us. And so, we just kind of shared the risk on that and it went well. Then we shared the risk on another one and another one and then we bought a little portfolio together and then we bought a few more together then we started doing some third party management together and fast forward to today we've got several hundred units together, we manage several thousand units together, we've got a brokerage and property management and maintenance company would do some hard money lending. So, we've enjoyed our friendship and business relationship. Don: That's truly amazing. I mean, I think, you know, going on a jog, and then meeting your future business partner that you're going to do so many things with, it's just outstanding. And that's why people always say that when you are trying to get into real estate, then you should always say that this is what you're doing to people. Because people are going to tell you something back and they're going to tell you, hey, you should talk to this guy or I've heard about somebody who does that does this and then you get ideas. So, you always gotta talk to people. And that's a great example of how talking to people, getting to know them, listening to them, changes your life in a good way. Douglas: That's a great point. Especially I was laughing about This was somebody the other day, because when I was working in banking when I was working in accounting when I was working in real estate technology, I would tell people that and nobody seemed interested or knew what to talk about. But as soon as I started investing in residential and small multifamily properties, and I would mention that everybody had either thought of it or had a friend or a family member who had been an investor at one time, or were thinking about doing it themselves or just buying a house. So, to your point, it just opens up a wealth of conversations and connections, that being a real estate investor and talking about it highly encourage people to do that. Don: Definitely. Now, there's another thing that I want to talk to you about because I just had this conversation with my friend and you just mentioned it that you went to college back in '01 he said, right? Douglas: I wish and I graduated in '96. So, I'm a little older than that. Don: Yeah, so a little bit older. So, this is exactly the time where you're growing up, I believe. I don't know how old you are. If you want to share it. Douglas: I'll be 46 in two weeks. Don: 46. Happy birthday! Here's my question. So, you are growing up at the times where your parents must have told you for the people that were close to you to go to college, right? Get a degree if you want to be successful in life, right? Now, my generation, I'm 30 years old, and I never went to college. So... Douglas: Awesome.  Don: I've been investing in real estate since I'm 23 years old. My background is kind of different because I wasn't growing up in an environment that tells me that I have to go to college because we had the internet so we could hear other people talking. And so, there is the age of information where you could get a book for 10 bucks so you can listen to a podcast for free, right and get all the education you need. So, my question to you, would you recommend going to college in modern times or just jumping right in and just getting an education from a different source? Douglas: If you're entrepreneurial enough, and you have a plan and you have a determination, then yeah, you can do it on your own. There is a lifelong learning component that podcasts, books, resources now are at our fingertips as well. Well, it's just meeting people's mentors and connections. So clearly have learned more since I've been at a school then I learned in school. But for the right person, so for example, I got a master's in accounting. When I was out of school, I worked full time went to school at night, and I got scholarships and the company paid a little bit. So, to get that degree to get that knowledge and earned that credential at a private university cost me $2,000 of my hard-earned money. All the rest of that money came from somewhere else, which was, which was a good lesson that I learned how to do real estate as well. You don't have to go out and spend all your hard-earned money and borrow. There're ways if you can get creative, you use other people's money. So, what I wouldn't suggest for 99.9% of the people is to go borrow $70,000 a year to get an education, an undergraduate... Don: Exactly what I see. I mean, I see the age doing that. And I'm thinking you guys are taking debt for so long and you're also investing time. So, you're taking debt and investing time and I don't like doing one of them. I don't like investing my time for a long term period when I don't know if it's going to bear any fruits. And when you invest your time and your money, it kind of sets you back so much. Douglas: It's applicable in this because education is so important, whether you're learning through podcasts or books. Yeah, one of my mentors, he owns 5200 unit multi-family, mostly low income that they do a phenomenal job across the Southeast. And he told me many years ago, "Never borrow unless you're borrowing against an income-producing asset." That's where I was like, man, I can't borrow to go to school' I can't borrow for a car. I got to borrow against an income-producing asset, whether it's a business or a real estate piece of property. So that's a valuable lesson that a super successful multifamily investor gave me 20 years ago and I've never forgotten. So, very much on point to not borrow for that education, not borrow significantly for that education. Because it's going to put you back. Don: Yeah, I agree. And I think what I'm going to do, you just gave me an idea. I'm just going to record an episode later on that will talk about that subject specifically. I want to get back to borrowing money because I know you have a way of borrowing money. You're borrowing money from community banks. Douglas: Yes. Don: So, tell us a little bit about that. I know it's different now, you can make things happen when you work with the community bank. Douglas: Yeah, so we've worked with community banks since 2001. Part of the reason we like working with, some of the benefits is their local that you can go to church with them, to school, kids playing on sports teams, living in the same neighborhood. So, there's more of a story relationship aspect, and then there's also the local component to it. So, they're going to work with you and get behind you and understand that and then they're going to be a lot more interested in that relationship and kind of support you. They can't do as big a deal. They got lending limits, but they also have access to other local investors and kind of keep you in mind. So, for us, it's just been a great relationship. The Real coup for us was when the bad times hit for other investors and those banks had property, they were taken back. And they were looking to get it off of their balance sheet because they did not want to own real estate. And they didn't give it away. But there they created a win-win. It was kind of a "your price, my terms" situation, whereas they would say, "Hey, we want it at this price. We need to get it off at this price." And we say, "Okay, these are our terms." And if they said, "Hey, here, the terms we need," then we'd say, "Well, this is the price that we need." And we picked up hundreds of units during that '08 to 2014 probably working with community banks and borrowing and all the money from them on those deals. Don: Yeah, that's amazing. I know, multifamily was doing pretty well in '08 relatively. So, it's very smart to buy them at that time. I wish I was investing in real estate at that time, life would have been different. So, I want to ask you about your relationship with this bank. So, when you establish your relationship with the community bank, how do you do that? So how do you choose the bank? Is it more personal? Are they looking into your financials in a more personal way, not as strict of a guideline is what I'm asking. Douglas: There's no doubt to have guidelines. But you're right. It is a relationship. If someone were to look for a relationship with a community bank in their location, start with friends, family, mentors, anybody who knows somebody who was either sympathetic to you personally some way or to the real estate property investing or learning on real estate. So that's how we've established those relationships. There are plenty of local community banks that don't want to have anything to do with what we're doing. They don't like lending on real estate, they've got too much real estate, whatever. But some lots are in it's through those relationships where you develop a business strategic partnership with the banks. Don: Would you say that these loans are typically more expensive than what you would get with a regular loan? Douglas: So, for us, we kind of looked at loans and there's the traditional mortgage market where you can price things pretty cheap, but you got to have good credit. And then there's the community bank. And there are private loans. There's hard money lending. So, there are several different routes. Community bank financing is pretty cheap. It's got some strings attached, because they want you to jump through some hoops more so than a private lender would, more so than a hard money lender would. It will be things they're going to review past couple years of tax returns, they might run a credit check on you, they're going to ask for you sign a personal guarantee. So, they're going to be some things that some other lenders aren't going to have. But again, they're going to look out for you and they're going to keep you in mind when they're talking to other investors. Other investors want to get out of deals, they're going to say, "Hey, we're going to talk to Don and Eden they're doing this'' or "sell your properties to Don Eden, and we'll finance it" where they can just assume your mortgage or assume your loan. So, we've done that with banks and through relationships, which is a lot harder to do with national lenders as you know. Don: They lend for properties that are in their area, or they could lend for properties anywhere in the US? Douglas: Primarily they'll lend to either properties that are in their area or borrowers that are domiciled or headquartered or located in the area. Don: Yeah. Douglas: So, they will do deals outside of the state if it's somebody they know locally. Don: Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah Douglas: It's great. And it becomes a network and they become part of your network, and they become one of your strategic partners. And you can develop relationships with multiple community banks and work with all of them. And it's a great mutually beneficial relationship. Don: Terrific. Yeah, I think that's critical information for somebody who's listening to that show. And they want to get a loan for a property that they want to buy and they don't know who to talk to. I guess that's just an option that you got to consider. Go talk to your community bank, establish a relationship and get to know the people there because real estate is a long play. You do something where you plant seeds right now, and you wait for the seeds to sprout in the future. So, I guess that's one seed that you got to plant right? The community. Got to go and talk to people when you want to do deals. Douglas: It's been everything from helping you find new deals to financing deals to providing opportunities for other lines of business. So, they can help you finance because you built up a track record with them and they understand who you are and how you operate. So, they become a champion for you within their organization and the community. I couldn't recommend it highly enough. It's been one of the keys to the foundation of our real estate business. You've got deals, financing, and management when it comes to investing and finding deals, financing or paying for those deals and then manage them after the fact. So that financing piece is huge, whether it's your cash or somebody else's cash. Most real estate investors use somebody else's cash. So, a community bank is a great option. Don: Awesome. You manage over 3000 units and you also invest in real estate. So, you bought together with your partner over 800 units and you haven't had any money partners or equity partner so you've done this by yourself, complete with both of your hands. And that's amazing. I gotta say, I host a lot of people here on the show. Most of the people that try to syndicate, try to get to raise funds, and then buy their deals. You've been investing for better of two decades right now, and you've been doing that on your own. But I want to ask you if you've been investing in real estate and creating your wealth, why do you still want to do property management? Is it because of your investments? Or is it just because that's your core business? Douglas: Probably all of the above. And we feel like part of what we're here to do is to serve people profitably, you know, so we're in business to serve. Because we have our rental properties, we have to do property management, and we'd like to have our rental properties for the duration. So, we need to do property management and then managing properties for others is a skill that we have developed so we can get paid for it, we can get better at it and we can use it to serve others. So, it's kind of a mutually virtuous cycle of things going around where we get better, it helps us manage our properties better but helps us serve our clients better. So... Don: Win-win-win-win-win. That's many things in real estate. Douglas: Absolutely all the way around. And that's why we've expanded to Jackson, Tennessee, and Dyersburg, Tennessee and you know, hopes to expand into Eastern Arkansas, Central Arkansas, North Mississippi, Central Mississippi over time because it benefits all of us to do that. Don: It's what I like about real estate that you could find so many things to do in real estate that creates a win-win-win-win in different types of businesses. It's not the way that it is in real estate. You can create a business that creates wealth for you, that helps you with taxes that appreciate that cash flows, and that is being managed by you as another business. It's just amazing. So, we've been doing all that. It leads me to ask you, what would be the criteria for buying a new deal? Douglas: We've kind of bootstrapped it on our own. So, we're limited because we don't have equity partners and we don't syndicate. We usually have to have the financing in place. So that's assuming a loan, or some type of owner financing, or working directly with a bank that can provide the purchase money. We're super limited on what we do, which just leads to more deals for everybody else clients and that's great, but we're super selective at this at least we have been for the past 20 years we look forward to someday where we can just go out bad things all cash and not worry about it. But so, we're selected looking for different things, whether it's a single-family home, small multifamily or small commercial building. The recent thing we bought a property management company and bought the building. So, we're now an owner occupant of our office in that building. So that's a great win-win. Don: You buy the tenant and the building and you're the owner of both. Douglas: Exactly. So that's the most recent that was a month and a half ago. So that's been great. Don: You've been working with your partner surely but slowly, right? You've been managing properties, investing, buying them one by one with your money, creating long-term wealth, going to stay in your family forever. What would be the next step? Douglas: One thing we've been very fortunate on it's just building and surround yourself with some great people and building a good team. We've got folks who help run the businesses and operate the day today. And that's been awesome for us. So, continuing to develop those folks and grow opportunities for them as well as for ourselves. So, with the businesses we have now, which are really real estate services, brokerage, property management, maintenance, like said financing, then we have some business services, we provide some virtual assistants and some business back end support to our businesses and a few others. Just growing those real estate service lines and business service lines in this geographic area is our next focus personally for the next five years. Don: Awesome. So, what kind of areas are you guys going to focus on it in case anybody wants a property manager or wants to consult with you on a few things that have to do with real estate? Douglas: Yeah, so we help folks like ourselves, people who are wanting to build wealth, people who are wanting financial freedom, people who are looking to create an income or buy something to pay it down over time in resident real estate, small commercial real estate, multifamily real estate in kind of this MidSouth Mississippi, Tennessee Arkansas area around Memphis, Little Rock, Jackson, Mississippi. So, anything related to that brokerage, property management, maintenance, construction, lending, helping people fix and flip, helping people bridge loans into a long term loan. And then we provide virtual assistant services for folks who are doing real estate services, whether it's just somebody operating on their own or a brokerage or property management company, we're happy to help that because we've got a lot of experience. We got about 120 virtual assistants right now in the Philippines that work for 18 companies. Again, we feel our calling is to help people succeed through business and real estate. That's what we're trying to do and we're trying to help other people do it too. Don: Try and make an impact when you’re already wealthy. That's the next thing is to try to make an impact and help other people and that's truly a remarkable goal. So, what would be the best way to contact you Doug in case anybody wants to get in touch? Douglas: I love to talk to anybody. Easy to send me an email at Douglas@crestcore.com or find me on LinkedIn or find me on BiggerPockets. Those are probably the three best ways to get in touch. Don: Right. So, I want to thank you very much for being on the show today, Doug. Douglas: Love that, Don. Thanks for having me. Lady: Thanks for listening to the Real Estate Investing podcast with Don and Eden. Stay tuned for more episodes. Till next time!

Searching here, searching there...How do investors find rental properties that align with their financial goals? Is there a way to provide them access to these assets? Today, I am talking with Dan Ganguly, president of HomeUnion and founder of INVESTimate. As an entrepreneur, he’s always looking for a new solution to an existing problem. So, if a realtor needs a feed for homeowners, a property manager needs a feed of investment properties to present to potential buyers. You’ll Learn... [04:05] Questions for Investors: What’s your budget? Risk preference? Age and stage in life? Do you need cash? [05:13] Two Brands Connected: HomeUnion’s where investors search for properties; INVESTimate’s where property managers and realtors work with investors. [06:30] Business Model Change: Internet-only to tool that increases engagement between property managers dealing with investors. [07:43] Where to Start: Build a relationship sooner than later in the sales cycle process. [09:00] Help property managers build better Websites as a front door for people. [13:53] What does the local property manager do? Signs up with service, pays monthly fee, and puts on private/white labels. [14:58] Realtor gets MLS feed for home buying; property manager gets MLS feed with intelligent filters and big data for investment buying. [15:15] Everybody knows their #1 prospect is their existing customer because they already know, like, and trust you. [16:12] Other Options: MLS, Zillow, and similar Websites focus on finding stuff (schools, pools, etc.) that get people into a neighborhood. [16:35] INVESTimate: Offers big data platform with 110 million properties, 20 years of transactions, 200,000 neighborhoods, and more than 9 million rentals. [19:30] Is everything 100% accurate? No. Property is highly individual. [20:15] INVESTimate: Investors get best of both worlds when making a transaction. [21:45] Different risk-reward gradients/categories help people make the right decision. [26:45] Feedback from Property Managers: How has this changed their business? [32:05] Bottom Line: Business owners make money, get a door, and much more. Tweetables It’s a fish net to grab fish, and then we nurture the fish until they buy. Your #1 prospect is an existing customer because they already know, like, and trust you. We can’t force them to buy, but give them a reason and product to buy. Bottom Line: Business owners make money and get a door. Resources HomeUnion INVESTimate MLS Zillow Realtor.com DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. And today, I have a very special guest. I’m hanging out here with Don Ganguly. Don is the CEO of Homeunion, is that correct? Don: Yeah. I’m the president of Homeunion and founder of Investimate. Jason: President and the founder of Investimate. Don, I want to welcome you to being here on the Door Grow Show. Don: I’m glad to be here. Jason: Don, you have an interesting background. You have a lot of experience in entrepreneurism, I think people would be really interested here some tidbits from you today, and some insights. I’m excited to get it into your business and service. But let’s start with you. Can you give us a little background on you and just some of your experience and what lead you to where you are now in business? Don: Sure. I’m sort of a vocationally reformed engineer. This is my third company. The last one we did was actually an outsourcing service company for mortgage banks and services. We were actually helping originators doing the big boom and people [...] were getting a loan. When everything fell apart we were helping the services service those loans and try to keep people in their houses. We touched I think over $75 billion of service. That company ended up getting sold to Oracle, to a banking software company. But it was the progenitor to this whole Homeunion and Investimate thing that we founded because we were able to see all these properties all over the country that had some pretty decent prices and a good rental price ratio. When we looked at that, we figured there are all these homes that made good investments and people that live in the coast don’t get access to these assets. We looked at that and said, “Is there a way that we could provide access to rental properties the way people buy stocks and bonds?” If you look at the way rental properties are bought, we base them a little how homes are bought. So people go to a listing site, they get a list of properties, they do some back and beyond below calculations, figure out the rent, go to the neighborhood, or pick up the neighborhood, call a realtor, and then bounce around and try to find the right property that they like. If you’re look at an analog to that and say, “Hey, if you go to a wealth advisor and say, ‘I’ve got this much money to invest, what should I buy?’” The wealth advisors are going to say, “Okay. I got some stocks, here’s the idea, and here’s the score, here’s Apple, here’s Facebook, which one of these do you think you want in your portfolio and let’s go through a list.” The question they ask you often is, “Hey, what’s your budget? What’s your risk preference? What’s your age and state in life? Do you need cash?” And then they put a portfolio together that’s got a little bit of this and a little bit of that and it all enlines to your financial goal. We took that playbook and we brought it to this Investimate product that we built which says, “We can ask investors the same type of questions about their real estate investments and then let the system go out and find the right assets and build them a portfolio or a set of assets that need those financial criteria.” The non trivial exercise because to do that, we actually had to calibrate everything from a risk and reward stand point. Right? How risky is this house? And what’s in that house type of thing. That’s how we came to this. As an entrepreneur, you’re always looking for a new solution to an existing problem. Often, the existing stakeholders don’t have the answers. You got to think of something a little bit different. That’s how we got into this business. Jason: Help us understand these two brands, how they’re connected first and what they are. Just the overview. Don: No, I’m happy to. Homeunion used to be a retail platform where investors can come in and basically search for properties and invest. The first incarnation of Homeunion, we were actually serving as overall asset managers for these properties and then farming out the actual work to property managers on the ground. And then last year we made the call, it was becoming too big a business for us. We’ve done over 200 other transactions and we didn’t want to be in property management. We ended up giving those properties out to the property managers that were managing it, productized it and provided it as a platform for property managers and realtors that are working with investors. The product itself has been tested for four and a half years, it’d done $200 million of transaction within 5% of forecast and a good use by investors to buy properties all around the country, highly exercised. What we just see is the business model from being an internet only model that brought consumers to my front door to a product that would then serve people like property managers who are actually dealing with investors day to day, giving them a tool to engage with their investors. That’s the connection between the two. The Homeunion brand is an internal user of the investment product. So any leads that come in there are fed to our property management partners in various locations because we are not in the business. When we engage with that investor and they want to buy a property, then that property is managed by one of our partners. Both of them actually feed into the advantage of the property management tool. Jason: Let’s take our typical listeners. We’ve got a property management business owner, they got a small business, maybe they’ve got 100-200 doors on their management. They’re wanting to grow their business, they’re trying to deal with team changes, and staffing, and operations, and trying to systemize things for the first time ever. And then we have these solutions available that they can use to support in bringing investors. Where would they start with your services? Don: Yes. If I look at businesses such as yours and others, you’re helping them grow doors. How do you grow doors? You grow doors by finding more investors and having investors buying more doors, right? The property manager either at the bottom of the food chain which is that when the investors already bought that property, then they put their hand up and compete with four other property managers and say, “I’m the best guy in this market and you should come and put your property with me.” Or they can be more proactive and go up the food channel and up that funnel and have a conversation with the investor when the investor starts looking for that property. Be early in the solutions process. What happened to them is if you’re at that point in the fulcrum then you are actually able to participate in the property management process more naturally rather than doing it after the fact. Jason: If you’re part of this process earlier in the sales cycle then they’re going to have this relationship with you that’s already set and you’re by default mostly going to get the management contract. Don: You got it. Because you've been partnering with them ahead of time. At the same token, let me just take the other side of the coin there, the good work that you’re doing and others are doing is that saying, “Okay, listen, you need to market your business in some fashion. You need to get traffic on your website. You need to put content up.” There are various stakeholders that are helping property managers build better websites, you have a business in that, and a better front door for people to come in. When those people come in, then what do you have for them? That’s where we come in. I’ll give you a simple analog. If you’re a realtor, what do you need? You need an idea speed to your local MLS. Otherwise you can’t show any property. When a company comes in and says, “Hey, I want to buy from you.” If you have a website that doesn’t show any properties or you don’t have an ability to send that buyer of homes to buy then you can’t participate. It’s a minimum stake for a realtor. Jason: [...] tool. Don: If I am an “investor realtor” and that sort of property management, if I’m catering to investors then I need an ability to serve up investment properties or properties that are more likely to be good investment. Or put another way, I need to give you an investment lens through which to look at these properties so that you can then engage in buying a rental property through my system. If I don’t have that then I’m back to the bottom of the food chain because I’m searching here, I’m searching there, I’m doing all of these. If a realtor needs a feed for homeowners, I think a property manager needs a feed of investment properties that it can present to its potential buyer, if the property manager wants to jump up the food chain. That’s what Investimate provides. If you’re a property manager in a particular market and we’re in 15 or 16 markets around the country, we have real time connections to the local lifting services, what we would do is we would white label Investimate for your website so it would say, “ABC Property Manager” with your logo and your color on the front. When you use Door Grow or another service to drive investors to your website, then they come in and they have a way to search for rental properties in your patch or around the country, if you allow them to. Because you still get a referral fee for that and engage with you in that fashion. That’s one part of it. The second part is if you look at the realtors and I go back to the home buying because everyone gets that business. If you go to the home buying end of the business, what happens? The realtors are all over that bill when it reels its head. When a home buyer says I want to buy, you have a short window in which to grab that person and about 20 realtors are all over it from leads, from various places. The name of the game and how quickly can I get that person. On the investment side, nobody wakes up and says, “I just have to buy rental property in the next 24 hours. Otherwise I’m going to have a hissy fit of some kind.” That doesn’t quite work that way. When people make that decision saying, “Hey, maybe I should be in real estate, I know a lot of wealth is built that way. I should be out of the stock market, or I’ve already bought two properties, I think it’s time for me to buy another one. I got some excess cash.” What they need is a steady dive of stuff that fits their preferences and in nurturing. It’s very different from the home buying. The investment platform actually comes with a set of campaign management and a set of investor support services. When you’re under Investimate, and you’re a customer of ABC Property Management. So you come in and say I’m Jason. You register you start using the site, we call you and say, “Jason, we’re investment support with ABC Property Management, we’re here to help you use the system and help you understand what’s in here.” You get acclimatized with the system, you understand what it is, we get an idea of your preferences and the system also captures your preferences. Now, you’ve told me you like sci-fi movies or romcom and I now keep sending you scifi and romcom till one day you watch that movie, because that’s how investors work. They drip feed them until they put their hand up and say, “That’s probably interesting.” Now I got to buy box. Once I get that buy box, then I call ABC Property Manager and say, “Hey, I’ve got Jason who’s got X amount to invest. He’s looking in Austin. This is sort of his buy box, this is the sort of the property he’s looking for. Please help him out and do the local due diligence.” We serve that lead up at that point. It’s the website, it’s a set of intelligence filter that connects to the local listing service, and it’s a whole analytics lens that allows them to search like they would search with stocks and bonds. I can get more into the data side of it, it’s much deeper than that. To answer your question what does that local property manager do? He signs up with the service, it’s a small monthly fee, and he private labels it, white labels it on his website, and he’s off to the races. The way we make money, really, most of it is from when there’s a successful transaction. What we ask for them is to load whatever lead customers they have into that proprietary database that always stays there on and then these people as they come in, it’s a fishnet to grab fish, and then we nurture those fish ‘til they buy. It’s a long term way to keep their brand in front of customers and leads and others. I’ll tell you something that a lot of the property managers are working with, not only loading customers, they’ll think, “Hey, here is a whole bunch of people we touched in the last five years. We didn’t do business with them but we touched them in some fashion. I want those registered to me.” And a lot of them wake up and are prospect of buying stuff. All because once you see the product then they’ll say, “Yeah. I’m interested and I will use this to buy something.” That’s what we bring to the tables. What a realtor gets from a strict MLS feed for home buying, a property manager gets an MLS feed with a bunch of intelligent filters and big data for investment buying. That’s what we’re doing. Jason: I love the idea. Everybody listening knows or should know that their number one prospect is your existing customer. They already know you, trust you, and like you. You’re already probably managing a property for them. They’re one of the most likely to do business with you again, and if you have opportunities, a property’s available and they’re already investors, it would be a very easier thing to get them into an additional property. They’re going to have a high level of trust with you. If you have this easy pull of properties that they could see and view and they’re getting dripped, and they’re getting notified, and they’re in your funnel and system here, then eventually something is going to grab them. They’re going to go, “Hey, this looks like a deal I could sink my teeth into. I’m going to go for this.” For the skeptics that are listening, you’ve got the property managers that also do real estate and they’ve already got the MLS and they’re like, “Wow, why don’t I just put the MLS on.” And they can just look for property, any property. Let’s really clarify the difference between just having the MLS and having the Investimate tool. Don: Great question. The MLS or Zillow or Realtor.com or any of these sites, are geared towards you looking for school pools, stuff that gets you into a neighborhood to live in. What we did is we created a big data platform where we have 110 million properties, we have the entire US Housing Stock, we have 20 years of transactions. We have 200,000 neighborhoods, we have an initiative here with University of California where we collect over 9 million rentals all over the internet so we could put that into our model, and we do a couple of different things with it. We process over $200 billion of properties to bill them out. What we do with it is first thing we’ve done is we calibrated neighborhoods from A to D as a neighborhood investment grading. Think of this as a bond grading so the D is not, we’re not in D neighborhood. C is not necessarily saying it’s a bad neighborhood, it just says it’s a neighborhood that’s a little bit more volatile, you get in with the lower quantum of money, it’s a high yield property, that neighborhood property isn’t going to give you as much growth. But you can pull me a portfolio depending on what else you’re trying to buy. An E neighborhood has a higher quantum of investment. It’s a more expensive neighborhood, view is not going to be that great, and you are going to see a lot more growth. The question is should I buy Apple stock at $800 and buy five units of Apple stocks or should I buy something that’s $50 and buy hundred units of it? Or should I do a little bit of both? We’ve given them a risk reward calibration so they can look at both of these things. Then we forecast, we have a model that estimates the rent. We have a rent valuation model, we have a cascade waterfall where we compare to [...] and a bunch of other things to say here’s a range of the rent. We then estimate the price and see if it’s above or below what we model the price to be at. Based on that we come up with a big range on their property. Then, we provide a con of rich neighborhood information on the renter. If you go to an investment, you’ll see how much money do the renters make, what’s the average income, how come they can afford the rent, where are the rents on this neighborhood, am I an outlier rent? Once my renter goes, “I’ll never be able to fulfill it because I’m the only guy in that neighborhood where my renter’s paying higher among everybody.” There’s a ton of good strategic data and there’s price trends and rent trends on that neighborhood. When investors go in, it’s a shame when you look at the stock. What’s my risk in this stock? What’s the previous growth has been? What’s my dividend play? What had done historically? What is it expected to do? What other research can I get around it? It’s that one place where all that information is encapsulated. The potential rental property buyers are doing what [...]. They’re going to go to Zillow, find new property, we’re doing a back of the napkin, going to a rental meter, finding the rent and then coming back, going to a realtor, looking at the neighborhood, they don’t like it, go to another one. We put all of that into one piece on the back of big data. Like in many model, is everything 100% accurate? No. Property is highly individual. You and I may be living next door to each other and you’ve done a lot of great things in your property. You may be a little bit different than mine. How do we do that? The property manager solved that last mile problems. The model, the data helps them create a buy box, instead of guard rails, instead of neighborhood, it’s a type of property. And then the property manager goes and then says, “Yes, the data is right on this one. The renter’s exactly what we said.” or “You know what, this property is gutted on the inside and it’s not going to work.” It’s a combination of that site, of the platform, and the local property manager at the point of purchase. Investimate, you get the best of both in terms of making a transaction. Now, why is the property manager the best partner? Because he or she has to manage that property afterwards. They’re not going to go in and say yeah, the rent’s going to be $2,000, no problem. The moment it closes, then they come back and say the rent’s $1,500, that’s the beginning of the end as far as their whole credibility goes. All that big data is underlying the investment lens of [...], just going in that a little bit more. When we look at the MLS, we pull the listing services every 30 minutes. It’s real time. We apply 50 to 60 different filters to pull stuff in. We exclude stuff. If they’re common, if we don’t like them, we exclude those things, exclude D neighborhood. There’s a set of filters that go in, then we [...] the rich data, then there’s a que where a set of eyeballs do a quality check. Then, it makes it into the platform. It’s a highly curated investment focused platform that’s available for the property manager to showcase to his or her client. Jason: Alright, that was a great explanation. Basically, what I’m hearing is this is like MLS. It includes all the MLS stuff but it’s better. It includes more tools, more resources geared specifically towards the investor, and they’re able to make decisions. This is maybe a random question but I’m really curious about these different gradients or different categorizations that you have of risk reward and how are people making this decision whether they want As or Ds? Don: It really depends on the risk profile, at the end of the day. If you go for a C property, when do you buy a Triple C bond? A Triple C bond is a high yield bond for sure, because it’s not an A bond. But when you buy Triple C bond, you also know that there could be defaults, there could be things that wreck your returns. You’re getting that high yield to compensate for the risk. When you buy a Triple A bond, it’s more deterministic. In a higher end neighborhood, you’ve got rents that are not quite as high to the ratio of the property price, but you’ve got renters that tend to be more stable, that have been there longer period of time, and their homes tend to appreciate. But it requires more money to get in. It all depends in the investor’s personal preferences, are they looking for money now, are they looking more to build a portfolio and after 15 years when it’s all paid off that’s [...]. Are they looking for growth where they wanna spin around and flip it in five years? That’s a whole different discussion, they you go after more growth properties. You need at least five years for real estate before you cover all your transaction costs, or three plus years. It just totally depends on the investment and their requirements. They might buy some properties for cash flow, they might buy some for growth, and they might buy some that’s in between. We hear investors say hey, I need cash flow, that’s my number one determinant. Other investors might say I don’t really need any money right now, but I wanna build up a portfolio that will grow and be safe. Others will say I need to cover my mortgage, and maybe make a little bit of money, then the balance in the middle, but I really need properties that are going to appreciate. I don’t really care about cash flow, but I don’t want to be out of pocket. Those decisions then drive the type of properties, neighborhoods, locations, cities they end up with. Jason: In your platform, curious, what do you see being the most popular for the investors that are typically using this with property managers in that categorization? Don: Where people buy, 40% is what I call the B neighborhoods, 40% are on the C neighborhoods which are the high yield neighborhoods, and 20% are the As. As are obviously more expensive, and your buy will shrink when you get to the A neighborhood. That’s roughly what I see. Jason: Got it. This would obviously work for non-property managers that are using it. Maybe their intention is just to use and look at this for their own stuff, or to look for flips, or turnkeys, or different types of deals than just some sort of long term management situation. Don: It would work for realtors, any realtors that’s dealing with investors, they are also using the platform. We’ve got a number of realtors that signed up. The realtor piece is a little bit different. I’d sell you a home and you’re not going to buy another home from me for the next 7 to 10 years typically, I’m not going to come every year and sell you a home. Once I sell you a home, if I’m smart, I know you could be a potential investor. I say hey, if you’re looking for rental properties now, here’s a site that gives you local and national rental properties, and I’ll help you out with it. For the realtor, it becomes a cross sell. For a property manager, it’s an upsell, it’s one more property or a new guy coming in. But for the realtor it’s a cross sell to a customer or lead that already spent the money getting that customer or the lead. Now you say what else can I get out of their wallet? And this product does that. In terms of flippers, we’re not really geared towards flippers. We’re not showing the big distressed assets out there that you can find and rehab. The big thing for the flippers are rehab numbers. How much do I have to put into this property to actually make money on it? I’m buying it $40,000 on the market, I put $20,000 in it so I’m already in $20,000. I can make another $20,000 because I can sell it at market. That requires on the ground running around and understanding what those rehab cost. They can use the system to identify stuff, I’m sure. But at the end of the day, I think these are people driving around neighborhoods or trying to find distressed assets that need that. There’s not an inordinate focus and people on that on that platform, just because our partners are not really chasing those types of deals. We need a partner on the ground for this, solving the last model. Any investor can come in and use it for sure. Jason: Property managers that are already working with you and using your system in doing this, what sort of changes or feedback or results have you been hearing from them? What are they noticing and how has this changed their business? Don: One thing a lot of them are noticing is that a lot of their customers or their leads are waking up and they are engaged in looking at properties. There’s two, three things they’re saying. One is they’re making offers and new properties, in some cases they’re selling properties to the system which helps the property manager get a listing. They get that listing, and if the investor is selling the property, they can get to keep the property management because it’s a rental property that they’re selling it as and they’re not kicking out the renter going to a homeowner. I think a lot of people like that because there’s no erosion or churn of their portfolio from that perspective. Jason: What’s happening is even though properties are selling, which would normally turned into a property management business, they’re able to retain the management contracts and keep the tenants in place. Don: That’s right. Jason: Love it. Don: For those investors that are willing to do that, there’s some that will want to sell in the open market for whatever reason. I think if we can increase the velocity of this, and as more and more people get connected to the investment network when you push something into that, it goes across, gets eyeballs everywhere. It may move a lot faster because the investment on the other end will want a rental property that’s already rented with a track record of history from that property manager, because the property manager will be able to give us what’s been happening in the last two or three years in performance on this property. That becomes a lot more attractive than to buy a new one and then do all this stuff to it. Jason: So this is a proven property, they’re able to see that it’s rent rolled effectively, and this extends the reach then of this ability far beyond what the local MLS would provide because investors would be out of state and beyond are able to see this opportunity. Don: And realtors are not that interested in selling rental properties to investors. The MLS and stuff like that, they get the least amount of attention from realtors. Putting it on this platform puts many more eyeballs. We get 120,000 users on the platform today. Remember, we’ve been at this for four years, four and a half years. As the assigning of these property managers, they’re going into this. The [...] account is increasing dramatically month over month. Out of that, not everyone’s a buyer today but big enough sample size there that people would look at it and say this is something I want to buy. And the more product you put in there, the better you are. Jason: Say they sign up, how easy is this to get connected into the website? Is it just some javascript code snippet that would be added to a page, or just some HTML like an iframe… Don: Good question. It’s not iframe, it’s a hyperlink linked with their subdomain that gets added to their website and we can put it right over… For example the DMI franchise is rolling this out to a lot of their franchisees. We spoke to their website company and made sure that the logos and the colors and all that was consistent in how they wanted the brand to look for all DMI franchises and put it out there so they have the same experience, it’s stuff like that. It’s not a massive task, it’s a quick task of getting it up and running. They don’t even need someone familiar with website development on their end to put it up. Jason: Fantastic. I would imagine besides that, they’re able to feed in maybe their list of clientele, or how do they get clients using or into this system? Don: They send a file of their clients and their leads, and we separate the two. That gets loaded and tagged to them in the CRM for good. Anytime they do anything, they’re forever tagged to them. We look at the clients one way, we look at the leads one way, and they get a mail from Jason at ABC Property Management saying hey, we just implemented this new tool, come check it out, here’s all that it’s got. A series of mails inviting them to come check out the tool, what’s in it, and then we engage with them as investor support for Jason’s property management company, help them utilize the tool. That’s all branded to Jason, it’s not branded to anything else, it’s all branded to Jason. The backend calls are made to investment support to help them use the system, that’s all Jason. Then, they start receiving some weekly properties that are hot in their particular market. If they put their hand up, we answer questions and take [...]. Jason: Great. The bottom line, everybody listening, that business owners are all thinking is this makes me money, right? They’re getting the real estate deals, they’re getting commissions on the real estate deals, anything else that I’m missing? Don: They get a door... Jason: And they get property management contracts. Don: Yup, and let’s say for example we have property managers in California. A California property manager’s customer wants to buy in Austin, so the Austin person then can get a referral from the California buyer because the California buyer is not finding something in the price range they want in California. One thing they always ask, our customers, is do you want to show only your market or do you want to show all markets? There’s pros and cons to it. If you only show your market, then that investor can only buy in your market and that’s all they get and you always get the door. The con is if they ever decide to buy somewhere else, they’re not going to buy through you because you didn’t show that. Or, you show all markets and then if they do decide to buy somewhere else, then you get a referral fee from that. By the same token, you get inbound traffic from someone else. That’s the idea of that. But we give people that option, because we can show one, or two, or all. Most people tend to keep it fully open, but when you have people that say I don’t want to show anything other than my city. We’re okay with that as well, it’s the business owner’s choice. Jason: So this has other potential benefits of really setting up a referral network, getting some deals. Don: Yup. We’ve had situations where property managers just got a door, because somebody is buying a property. Then the person says they need a property manager, so then we get the door. Sometimes, they get the whole thing. If an investor wants to buy in their market, then they become the buyer’s agent, obviously they give up a referral fee back into the system so others can get paid. They get the door and that commission. At the same token then, they refer someone, they get a fee from that person from the door and the commission; it works both ways. Jason: Alright. Don, this sounds fantastic. Is there any other common questions or things that you think people listening might be curious about related to this? And then how can they find out more? Don: I think one thing we had expectations on, this is a long term relationship with your investors. Let’s say you’ve got 400 doors and 150 investors, the investors get exposed to it. It’s not that okay. In 60 days, they all come in and say great, now that you’ve given me this, here are 10 properties that I’m going to buy. They will buy over time, but what’s important is they are now much more connected with your brand and you start seeing deals happening with these investors when they decide to buy. We can’t force them to buy, but we give them a reason to buy, and we give them a product to buy. That’s the one thing. The second thing is we do need the property management person trained on the system. We have a training program and all of that. When we transfer that investor in the right time, they need to be able to use the system to find the next property and the next one if this one doesn’t work out. Because ultimately, they’re the one fulfilling that. A property management company sometimes has not been in the sales process, they’ve always been at the other end of the food chain. They’ve got to think that if they want to climb the food chain, they do need some competence and strive to be able to go and get that property and close the property with the investor. Although we’re taking a lot of the analytical work in a way by systems giving them all of that. They get a very clear buy box, but they still need to fulfill that buy box. Jason: Let’s wrap this up, how would people find out more about your Investimate product, and how would they demo this and learn more about the business, and how do they get started? Don: They would go to investimateroi.com, in there is a little video that talks about the product, an explanation of what it does for property managers and realtors, and an ability to set up an appointment for a demo. The best thing to do is always look at a demo. If they go there and they schedule a time, just like we’re doing here, we’ll get them on an online webinar and we’ll take them through the product and explain what it does, and see if it’s a fit for the business. It’s simple enough, yeah. Jason: Fantastic. Don, this has been really interesting, really insightful. I think a lot of people’s wills returning as they listen to this. I think that you’ll probably be getting some demos of people checking it out. Don: Great, thank you. Jason: Thanks for being on the DoorGrow show. Don: Glad to be here. Jason: You can check that out at investimateroi.com. I appreciate Don being on the show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors and make a difference, then make sure you check us out at doorgrow.com. If you want to join the most awesome community of property management entrepreneurs on the planet, we are hanging out inside the DoorGrow Club. It is a free Facebook group, you can go to doorgrowclub.com, make sure you join the group. We will see you next time on the DoorGrow Show. Until then, to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone.  

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z’s of Financial Planning.  It’s that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today’s financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening!

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

Ask The Experts | AM900 CHML | Hamilton News Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show  

Ask The Experts | AM900 CHML | Hamilton News Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show  

Ask The Experts | AM900 CHML | Hamilton News Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show  

Ask The Experts | AM900 CHML | Hamilton News Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show  

Saturdays 7-8am Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

October 08 2016 Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

October 01 2016 Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

September 24 2016 Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

September 17 2016 Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

September 10 2016 Every week Andy Lyster and Don Fox of Investors Group share their Financial Planning advice with you the listener.  With over 60 years of combined experience Andy and Don have advised clients on the A-Z's of Financial Planning.  It's that experience that brings a down to earth approach to help you navigate today's financial stressors.  To quote Andy and Don “It all starts with a comprehensive financial plan” and every week we share real life financial stories and solutions.  Thanks for listening! Have a listener enquiry? Click here. http://www.donfox.net/radio-show

Don Van Winkle joins the show to discuss the primary traits that lend themselves to “good” leaders. First and foremost, Mickey and Don discuss the overarching need for a leader to prioritize the evolution of themselves and the needs of the company, always striving for greater awareness of what both they and their organization will become tomorrow—and how to start working toward that future today. Please forgive the sound quality as the interview took place in a less than ideal location.  Highlights Some CEOs may have inherent traits that lend themselves to leadership, but truly good leading stems from the ability to evolve with the needs of the business. A connected leader should strive to balance confidence and humility, knowing that there is still work to be done and also that their team has the capability to make it happen. The smart CEO exhibits a level of interest in others and personal disclosure that inspires other people in turn. People want someone who will listen and appreciate what they bring to the table and who brings that to other functional areas of the company. The elements of connected leaders are deeply related to the financial wellbeing of our businesses, rather than mutually exclusive ideas. Personal Evolution Exceeds Natural Abilities 0:27 Mickey: In Colin’s absence today, we’ve invited an executive and leader we admire, Don Van Winkle. Don, you and I have known each other for sixteen years. In the time that I’ve known you, you were a bank executive; president of a bank; chairman and CEO of a supermarket organization; CFO and COO of a retail clothing organization; director of a virtual CFO company; and in the last few years you’ve given council to a whole lot of CEOs. 1:33 Don Van Winkle: It’s fairly eclectic, but I’ve never been bored and I’ve always been able to add value. I’m curious how businesses and CEOs work, so it’s served me well. 1:44 Mickey: All of this time you’ve spent working with CEOs and being a chairman, what’s important for you about being an effective CEO? What does a good CEO look and act like? 1:56 Don: We have in our mind’s eye what a CEO “looks like,” how they dress and how they communicate. A lot of people are just born with that, but you can’t rely on it. You have to be able to evolve. I see a lot of CEOs who have the natural attributes, the presence, the smarts, the pedigree, but if they don’t keep evolving and becoming more fully who they are, they end up running into a wall. 2:25 Don: I’ve seen people who don’t necessarily come to the table with all of the natural attributes. But because of their authenticity, compassion, vision and abilities to grow and make hard decisions, they become really good CEOs. The Powerful Combination of Confidence and Humility 2:40 Mickey: This week I was at a company we have a new relationship with that is extraordinarily successful, very high growth and particularly modern, working in the data-driven, internet-rich world. I was with the CEO and he clearly sees that even though he has led this company to massive growth and been there for fourteen years, the company keeps growing into new challenges. He is interested in what is next for him and all of the people that count on him. How do they need to evolve in order to be strategic for the next era of their company? 3:29 Mickey: I’m struck by this great combination of confidence and humility. He’s still open to the idea that there must be something to be better at today that they didn’t need to be great at yesterday. 3:57 Don: Good CEOs are not just evolving, they’re conscious of the impacts of their attitudes, presence, and vision on other people and they have humility about it. The ability to admit when you are wrong in front of colleagues is powerful and way underused. 4:30 Don: If you’re wrong and everyone knows it, acknowledge it so you can move on. This is part of the personal evolution you need to go through in your stewardship of the organization. The days of the “all knowing, I’m in charge, move forward, and just listen to me” methods are way behind us for enlightened, good leaders. 4:55 Don: The conditions are different; it’s a different generation, with different needs. Openness as a Means to More Effective Work 5:58 Mickey: The rate of information exchange in our world today drives a level of dynamic, emerging, wild and unexpected change that requires communication to be open between the senior leadership and all of the other elements. The smart CEO today exhibits a level of openness and interest and personal disclosure that inspires other people to expose. 5:47 Don: If you’re trying from the wrong angle and it’s inauthentic, it will backfire. If your motives and questions come from authentic curiosity, people listen and respond. 6:23 Mickey: When the United States was at war in Vietnam, there was a politician who had to report the deaths and progress of the war almost every day. Someone told him he needed to smile more, and it looked grotesque on camera while he reported body counts with a slight smile. 7:05 Mickey: Telling someone to be more humble, open and vulnerable is too instructive. That’s why I like the combination of confidence and vulnerability. Truly effective CEOs are really clear about where they’re confident and they’re really clear where they’re uncertain and inviting people to participate. 7:40 Don: Several years back, I was the CFO and COO of a sportswear design distribution. When I got there, there was no infrastructure but there were these great visionary artists. I got to put the infrastructure in to include the IT, accounts payable, and customer service. I got to appreciate who they already were and to listen in order to tie it all together and coordinate so everything played off each other well. 8:14 Don: It was my first experience in orchestrating interaction. People want someone who will listen and appreciate what they bring to the table and that brings that to other functional areas of the company. 8:38 Mickey: As in our first episode, the distinctions between leaders, bosses and bastards are down to care and bridge, which you demonstrated in your story. You cared about the possibilities of their business and helped them create a much more effective bridge to where they wanted to go. Investing in the Evolution of Leaders 9:29 Mickey: A question I hear a lot is, “Do leaders ever really change?” Some people say, “No, people are just how they are. Don’t waste your leadership development dollars.” What do you think about investing in the evolution of leaders? 10:18 Don: If you are conscious of what you bring to the table, but you’re aware of what you can improve, you keep evolving. You’re a better spouse, parent, colleague and friend. The CEOs who think they’re “fixed” and are not consciously evolving end up becoming very flat and toxic to their organization. 10:44 Don: Leadership is inspiring the discretionary effort that separates commitment from compliance. Leaders have to be authentic and collaborative to inspire and be respected. 11:38 Mickey: You look at becoming fully ourselves as evolutionary. Is the evolution ever over? 11:43 Don: I don’t think so. If we ever get to the point where I am who I am and that’s all I am, I’m bored. We need to constantly evolve and there’s nothing you can’t refine in the development of yourself as a leader and a human being. 12:12 Mickey: The rate and quality of the evolution of enterprise never exceeds the rate and quality of the evolution of its leaders. Leaders do evolve. 13:31 Don: In terms of evolution, engineers typically are smart, problem-solvers, tenacious, but as CEOs, until they understand and appreciate ambiguity, they can be toxic CEOs. But when they can learn to appreciate that there are gray areas to people and situations and meld that into their other skill sets, they are good CEOs. People do not work like on/off binaries. The Toxic Leader (a.k.a. The Bastard) 14:25 Mickey: What are some of the attributes of a toxic leader? For us, that would probably fit in the “bastards” domain. 14:42 Don: When I was in the grocery store business, I had a senior executive who was insecure—big physical presence, articulate, loud voice, but beneath all of that he was a very insecure human being. His insecurity undermined those he was supposed to be directing. Never put insecure people—those who are not for other people and conscious of their own evolution—in charge of other people, because they have a primal need to undermine their credibility and who they are because they feel threatened. 15:31 Don: They use bullying as a way to get things done. It doesn’t work. If the leader can’t acknowledge where they’re doing well and not as well, there’s no point in engaging. 16:17 Don: I look for people who are genuinely interested in the development of other people A true leader knows they are going to do well if the people around them are thriving. 17:13 Mickey: Last time we talked about the stories we leave in our wake. How do the stories that are told about a leader when he or she is not around affect their capacity to lead? 17:41 Don: A lot of entrepreneurs are people who did not fit well in the traditional corporate world, but the skill set that got their startup running will not take them to the next level. If they’re either unwilling to bring in the right level of management or talent or change themselves, they lose trust because they’re not willing to extend themselves through other people. I work with one individual like this; he’s predictable, not evolving. A fine human being, but he wouldn’t let people in. 18:31 Mickey: This would be an example of a toxic story about that person’s leadership. The story goes something like, “Really a wonderful person, used to be really valuable and no longer relevant.” Evolving to Support Mission-Critical Results 19:06 Mickey: What do these different aspects of leadership evolution have to do with mission-critical results? 19:31 Don: People need to know and respect your basic intelligence in vision as a leader and at the same time appreciate that you acknowledge who they are and what they bring to the table. They can see through your whole perspective that you’re more collaborative, but you’re not a pushover. Good leadership is a function of being intellectually curious about who the human being is that is delivering that skill set and desiring to bring out the best in them. A leader shows how they play off another individual and they look to you as the hub between them. 21:06 Mickey: I know you did a lot of commercial lending. Did any of this come into play when you were deciding who to give money to? 21:30 Don: Banking is a lot of technical analysis; you’re looking at numbers, so it’s very objective. This side is very subjective. You have bankers who do it totally by the numbers and bankers who understand and can feel whether “this is a good guy.” But you have to integrate those two. 21:51 Don: You see such a wide variety of executives that you start to identify patterns. How they treat people and who they hire tells me volumes. Are they just flushing as much cash out of their organization and minimizing taxes, or are they truly thinking about building a balance sheet that’s more financeable and stable over time? 22:39 Don: To your question: absolutely. You have to get to know the subjective side and overlay that with the objective. 23:38 Mickey: There’s something important about that notion of: “Great leaders evolve.” I love that when you make decisions on where to risk capital, that you take into account the rigorous financial and technical analysis and the social awareness of who is going to execute all that. You have the elements of connected leaders deeply related to the financial wellbeing of our businesses. 24:34 Don: “The fixed man for fixed duties” is a threat today. It’s no longer relevant, but we still have some of that fixed man for fixed duties mentality. The people I look for now are very adaptable, curious and learning. Connected leaders know their peripheral vision—their view of the world—keeps expanding hugely by aligning with other people who have skill sets they don’t have. 25:17 Don: Great CEOs not only create an environment, but they identify and consciously develop a high level of input with the people around them. It’s very collegial and it’s gratifying, both to work with someone who is that CEO and to be that CEO. 25:35 Don: That flies in the face of a lot of information over the years about “what a leader is.” A leader is someone who is intentionally developing and bringing out the best in people, even in a “selfish” curious way, because he or she knows we’re better facing the uncertain world and making the best of it for all of us.  

Michael: Hello everyone, this is Michael Gross of OptionSellers.com, here with your monthly guest expert interview. This month’s guest expert is Don Singletary, author of the Options Exposed Playbook. Don spent 25 years as a consultant for commercial commodity hedge plans, helping him to implement option strategies to lower cost and increase their efficiency. He has also spent much of that time as an individual options trader. He is going to bring a unique perspective on that to you today. Don, welcome to OptionSeller.com Guest Expert Series. Don: Well, thank you very much, Michael. I’m glad to be here. It’s my pleasure. Michael: Don, let’s start off by telling us a little bit about your background and how you got started in the trading industry. Don: Well, there is a lot to talk about today about options and making money, so I’ll get to the buy out part pretty quickly here. I started in broadcasting at the age of 15 and I grew up in a small town that only had 2 radio stations. I worked for both of them- they used a different name at each one. While I was in high school, I became a licensed broadcast engineer, continued electronics in the Air Force, worked countermeasures during the Vietnam era, and worked for the Motion Picture Bureau at the Florida Department of Commerce and Economic Development. I had the pleasure for several years, a week every month, I spent in Hollywood, California. It’s a pretty remarkable “bubble-world” out there, and it still is. Patty and I were just starting a family in those years and that took a lot of travel, so I gave being a stockbroker a try. One of my specialties there was introducing customers to the covered call writings, sort of a specialty of mine. Now, back in those days, in the mid 1980’s, it was very much a bull market. I think a drunk monkey with a dartboard could’ve made money. As luck would have it, I got to be a broker during those few months. I got a good offer to teach at a technical college right before the big bust in October of ’87. I took a lot of my customers in cash before I left, not because I was smart or I knew a market crash was coming, I just needed to make a lot of money and they had become friends of mine and I didn’t want to leave them hanging. I kind of put them all in cash and gave them a proper goodbye. Now, when the market crashed 30 days after I left to take the college professor job, my clients thought I was a genius. That’s certainly not true- I was just lucky! So, the greatest work and financial undertaking I ever had was the last 20-25 years. I never saw it coming. I don’t think anybody grows up to be a consultant to private corporations for risk management. I never even knew such a thing existed. I spent thousands of dollars on commodity books and the best option modeling software that I could ever find, and I bought a few of the newest and most powerful computers in the early 90’s. I think I thought I was going to be a trader and make a lot of money, but fate stepped in. That was coming, but it’d be later. It was something I never even thought. I got a call from a commodity producer who’d seen some of my option modeling that I’d faxed to a buddy. That phone call resulted in the working in risk management for the next 25 years. I got to work with some amazingly smart and creative people at the top levels of some major corporations, and it was just my good luck. I really got an education that money can’t buy. Michael: Well, we’re hoping you can share some of the pointers you picked up there with us today, Don. I know one of the reasons we wanted to have you on was that you kind of have a unique insight and you have insight into the commercial side of this business, but you’ve also been an individual investor, so you have insight into that side as well and can give maybe people a perspective from both sides of that coin. Before we get into that, Don, I want to talk just a minute about you book, Options Exposed Playbook. Just a great options book for anybody that’s interested in learning about options. Don does cover some option selling strategies in there that I thought were very excellent discussion of. Don, you told me a great story earlier about how you came about writing the book. Can you share that with our listeners? Don: Yeah, I’d be glad to do it. I was winding down my standards of risk management consulting, and I decided to stay home. There’s an old saying by Ernest Hemingway that says, “I drink in order that my friends are more interesting”. I wanted to take some time off and give that theory a test. Fate wasn’t to be. A friend of mine had called and we often talk investments. He said “Hey, I got something here I have to show you. I want to get your opinion. You’ve got to see it!” I said okay. So I met him for breakfast one morning and he showed up with two or three pages he had printed out on the Internet. Attached to the papers, the first thing I saw was that he had already made out a $3,500 check to some investment guru to buy this system. Now, my friend, he’s usually not that excitable, but he was just real excited and said “Look here”, he put his finger on the paper, and I read with him. It said “98% winners for 5 years”. It promised that anyone could probably turn $25,000 into $2 million in that 3-5 years, and that it would only take a couple hours a week, and it took almost no work. I stopped believing in the tooth fairy a long time ago. There are people that live in Austin, Texas in a little bubble who still believe in him, but I’m not one of those. So anyway, I took a good look at the pages he gave me and this magic system used vertical credit spreads, covered calls, and iron condor spreads. It promised the subscribers all they need to make themselves plenty rich with almost no work and in quick time. Now, years ago, I did a stint in the Air Force and I lived a while in West Texas. West Texans have a colorful way with language, so I told my friend a little saying I picked up back in those days in West Texas. “If a fella comes at you with a ten gallon hat pulled over his ears in an ear to ear grin, and he seems too glad to see you while shaking your hand a bit too much, you better look down and make sure he ain’t peeing on your boots”. We’ve all seen them, and we get these kinds of things in e-mails and in the regular postal mail all the time. By the way, Boone Pickens didn’t say that, but maybe he should. I took a couple of sheets and scratch paper and I showed my buddy how to do these pre-strategies. I had a little experience with them doing options. But I just told him, this is all the guy is really doing and he is doing it over and over again. Personally, I don’t believe for a minute the fantastic claims he makes. My friend interrupted and said, “Well, if he’s half right, I’m going to do really good!” I said “Yeah, that’s true! I can’t argue with that!” After I took a couple of pieces of note paper and scratched out some diagrams and made a few notes, suggested a few places where he could find some more information, he tore up the check and he said “You should write a book about this”, and I was giving my friend all the reasons why I was not, absolutely not, going to write any book on options right now. I left that meeting thinking that I had done my good turn for the day. When somebody tells you not to think of elephants for the next 2 hours, every time you close your eyes it’s all you can see. So, I started thinking about it if I was to write this book. I’m more or less retired now, but if I were going to write this book, what would be in it? Before I knew it, I was consumed by it and it only took about 10 weeks to write the book. That’s the Options Exposed Playbook that I have and I was a lucky man as far as selling really well right away. I got very interesting e-mails from a lot of readers. Some had absolutely no experience and ranging all the way up to Ph.D’s who were asking me about the inadequacies of the Black Scholes Formula, and that’s a conversation that I did not want to get into. Before I finish this story, I was preparing for this interview this morning, and here’s one here from The GURUS Selling System. It says “I know I’m reaching you on Sunday, so I’ll be brief, but you’re about to miss out on the best opportunity to make money you’ve ever seen….You see, this guy selects trade recommendations with a high probability of doubling your money. For example, on May 16th, made 106.9% gains in 3 days. May 17th- 70.4% in 2 days. May 23rd, I made an amazing $8,000 in 24 hours.” Now, these kinds of ads prey on people. Often, it’s people who are desperate who could believe an ad like that. Here’s another one that says “Just 7 days, you pocket $2,000 on one trade and you make $725 the next day in 4 short days. You make another $950 and people make $100,000 a year this way”. These types of ads cater to people- not a sophisticated audience, but they cater to people who are hardworking people and think like my friend did that if they’re half-right, they’re going to make a fortune. One of my motivations in writing that book- I don’t spend a lot of time in it bashing these kinds of systems, I think that’s a waste of time- I simply wanted to save beginner and small intermediate investors, beginners small and medium sized accounts, I wanted to save them from playing the slot machines. I noticed in your book and mine, as we did this completely independent from each other years ago, we used casinos as an example when we talk about selling options. In my book, there’s a line in there that says “You went to a casino and the manager said ‘you’re kind of stupid. We’re only going to let you play the slot machines’.” You can’t sell options if you’re not sophisticated yet because you don’t have the experience. The slot machines pay out 95-98% of the money that’s put into it, and there’s always somebody that’s at the machine ringing and flashing its lights. When I go to Las Vegas, the first thing I do, just to remind me where I am, is I go down… Las Vegas is a Petri dish for human behavior, and I’m a people watcher…. I go down and I pick out rows of a hundred slot machines. At any given time, one of them is ringing and flashing loud bells and whistles, but I’m looking at the other 99 who all have losers sitting in front of them. Those things are like parking meters. The more you play, the more you lose. I think buying options can be that kind of game, but somebody hits it big once in a while. It’s like playing golf- you tell somebody about your hole in one you made for years, but you never talk about the ones you lost flushing them into the woods. I think investing and gambling may have some of that human behavior in common. There’s an old saying that says “Experience is what you get when you get what you didn’t want”. I’ve had a lot of experience! Michael: Well, your experience has certainly resulted in an excellent book, Don. Wanted to congratulate you on that and certainly recommend that to anybody reading the book. I wanted to go back and touch on the point you made about the guy selling courses for thousands of dollars, and usually selling them to the people that aren’t really educated that much in trading, although not always. Even experienced investors sometimes will buy these courses. I don’t want to bash all of them, because I know some of them have some good information. Don: Sure they do, Michael. One of my favorite books is by the old guy Will Rodgers. It’s what keeps me humble- that and investing. He said that everybody’s ignorant, just about different things. When I’m talking about neophyte investors, who earnestly are hardworking people, are very prodigious people in their work and their demands, and they’re just trying to do better, their motivation is absolutely stellar. Anyway, go ahead. Michael: Sure, no, that’s a great point. But there are a lot of these courses at there that they are charging these thousands of dollars for promising outrageous profits. In fact, I wrote about one in the upcoming newsletter where there’s a guy on CNBC now that said he took $4,600 and turned it into $460,000 in 2 years. I would be a little skeptical of those types of claims. The thing about it that a lot of these people don’t realize, even these courses that are good, a lot of that information you can get by picking up a couple of books for $30, $40, $50 a piece. Your book is a perfect example. When I talk to you about this book, I said “So, are you selling a course? Do you have a seminar?” and you said no, I just wrote the book to help people understand how to do this, so you don’t have anything you’re selling. It’s purely a book that is showing people option strategies that have worked for you, kind of bringing a perspective of both the personal and individual investor side to it. When you wrote the book, what would you think the biggest difference is or maybe the biggest advantages of being a commercial player or the advantages of being an individual investor? Don: That’s a great question. A lot of people- just hate the word hedge fund, which when you’re in risk management working with a corporation, usually ad commodities, it’ll be something like cotton, coffee, or orange juice or sugar. The goals of the commercials and the individual speculators are almost polar opposites. In helping people with their commercial risk management plans, and the term hedge fund is not the same as a fund you use to hedge for risk management. I don’t want to get into the semantics of it, but there is a big difference between the two. Commercial players I work with and the people who use hedge funds, their motivation is to preserve their capitol, to eliminate risk, and to get the highest possible margins on their products that they can. Now, some of them are selling commodities and some of them are buying them, and these can be commercial players on both sides of the same market, of course. It’s not just the speculators vs. the commercial players. I’ll give you an example: Maybe a speculator is selling a $5 bushel call for a relatively small premium and maybe this plant makes ethanol and has to buy corn. If corn goes over $5 a bushel and he has to pay that price, then he’s not going to have much profit margin, if any at all. So, what he does is buy a $5 corn call and if pollination doesn’t occur right, or weather gets too hot, or demand ceases or whatever the reason, if corn prices soon pass $5, instead of going out of business or having a year so bad he has to work the next 2 years just to make up losses, then they buy $5 calls and pay too much for their product, corn, which helps them make ethanol. At the same moment, somebody else on the other side of the market is saying, maybe a speculator, “Boy, corn has got some of the lowest stocks it has had in 5 years. Last year topped at $4.60 and maybe it’ll hit over $5 this year. Maybe I can afford to spend a few hundred dollars to bet that corn prices are going to hit the ceiling. Then, these two orders at the markets someplace meet, the transaction occurs, and everybody’s happy with what they did. It’s just about a zero sum gain. I don’t really see what we did. In fact, we used to have a rule and I explained this to my customers because I knew the CEO’s I was talking to would be talking about risk management. I discouraged them from using the word “profit” at all, and substitute the word “margins”, because we don’t care. We lose a bunch of money in a risk management account, and they say they’re startled to hear me say that. I say “Well, if it means you make more profits, then that’s fine! A higher profit margin is the goal and we’re not going to call them profits because they aren’t profits for the company.” Motivations in conserving capital to get rid of price risk and delivery risk, weather, or government upheavals, or changes in the laws and all those things. Plus, frankly, in the risk management programs, they can make some very creative contracts about buying options that they can offer their potential customers to give them an edge over their competitor…. things like that. Michael: Okay. So, a lot of the things you did in the commercial side of it was really helping to manage the true definition of hedging, where you’re helping them manage their risk for the price of the commodities they’re actually working with, whether they’re taking delivery or selling them. You have speculators on the other side that are taking the other side of those trades and both sides are getting what they want. Don: Many times, I work for an orange juice company, _____, at a processing plant, and they had a lot of their products sold, but they still had millions of gallons of orange juice in the tank. It wasn’t priced yet, it wasn’t sold, and they had uncertain profit margins to consider. Another of my clients, at the same time, was on the other side of the market. It was a very large grocery store chain, and they knew how much shelf space they had for orange juice, and they knew from years and years of selling orange juice about how much they were going to sell in the coming year. All the orange juice they know they have to put on the shelf but they haven’t bought yet is a price risk to them. If you had a freeze and all of the sudden prices went up and people who couldn’t even deliver the orange juice because of the damaged crops, the grocery store still has the same shelf space and demands from their customers. So, they would hedge and release themselves by selling options and contracts to speculators, they could insulate themselves so the contingency of price and delivery risk, that kind of thing. What’s fascinating is I felt like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde for working both sides of the market, but, actually, they weren’t really at odds with each other, they were at odds with the risk that was in the market – and both of them could successfully make trades to help meet their margin goals. Michael: Yeah, that’s a great point. A question we get often here is, a lot of people ask, “Well, you guys are selling these options. Who’s buying these deep out-of-the-money options? Yeah, sometimes it’s other speculators that are buying lottery tickets, but a lot of the time it’s these commercial players that don’t want to buy them, they have to buy them to insure their business. It’s like buying insurance. Don: Absolutely. It may be from a speculator who said, “Man, I’d never do that. Who’s crazy enough to take the other side of this trade?” 80% of the options expire worthless, as you point out in all of your material, too. That’s pretty good odds from the start. The thing I love most about selling options, and this is all in your book and mine I supposed, it doesn’t demand that you have to guess price direction. The amplitude of the price changes, nor do we have to do that within a defined time. Buying options is like standing on one leg and shooting at a moving target. Selling options can be like making a partnership with gravity. Gravity and time decay both work regardless, rain or shine, 24/7, in all kinds of conditions. They’re not dependent on the stock market and commodities, and they don’t depend on public opinion or on anything. One of the things about the financial channels, and, you know, this is July of 2016 and we’re in the middle of this presidential thing going on, which is the real Petri dish of human behavior, I think. It’s interesting no matter which side you’re on. It’s just crazy what the news channels do. It was all about the candidates a few days ago, they were running out of news, they were getting in experts to talk about every contingency that might happen. It was a slow news day, so they would take the small stories and somehow embellish them a little bit and bring them to the top so they could keep listeners, so they can sell adds, so they can make more money. It’s really funny on the financial channels, they even do that. This tragedy that happened in Orlando, Florida 2 days ago, now the financial channels are not talking about politics, but they’re talking about terrorism and what that means to investments and which investments would be best if there is a terrorist attack. These guys, with all do respect, they have some very bright people, but they have a tough job. They have to show up every day to a non-scripted program, and this goes for network news, too, and they have to take whatever is in front of them and make it sound like the sizzle on a steak and sell it to the listeners every day. With TV, they’re able to do that. Aaron Spelling, I think it was, said one time “The TV, you don’t have to be really good at programming because TV is a medium that has a default that’s kind of the most effortless thing to do- you just sit there and watch it.” I do it, everybody does it sometimes. It’s a rest for your brain sometimes, or whatever your reasons. It’s interesting and all of this fast Internet information everywhere we can get, it’s a lot of toxic half-truths and innuendo information. My mother-in-law, who’s in her 90’s, I tried to keep her from watching the news because she would just buy a new lock to put on the door every time she saw the nightly crime report. I think investors made that mistake when they watch the financial channels, and maybe some of the other news. It’s just a type of telescopic fear. It’s like you never think about an asteroid hitting earth. Matter of fact, just 3 weeks ago, there was a comet that came within 2.2 million miles of the earth and it was ½ a mile wide, and it would have had a giant impact and probably killed hundreds of millions of people. But you didn’t hear about that in the news, and we’re always in that unlimited risk like that, or satellites breaking, or things like that. I think unlimited risk gets a really bad rap because people are always taught to be afraid of it. There’s some merits that you go into in some great detail, and you and James Cordier’s material about what unlimited risk is and what other people sometimes fear. There’s a way to understand it and a way to be able to use and to do it intelligently and within the laws of a very good mathematical probability. You guys do a great job with that. Michael: Thank, Don. I appreciate that. You made a great point there I want to go back to for just a second, because I think it’s important and we talk about it a lot as well. The role of the media in both stock and commodities prices… we talk about, in some ways, you can actually use it to your advantage. The way you do that is by doing your own research or knowing where to go to look for that fundamental research on your own, and knowing what’s important and what isn’t, because if the media, like you said, they have a slow news day or they feel like covering something, they can take something that’s really, in the big picture, somewhat insignificant, and make it seem like it’s a big story for that individual stock or commodity. That can move the price- maybe not for the long term, but for the short term. If you know what the real story is, you can take advantage of that as a trader. It’s one of the reasons we spend a lot of time on fundamental research here and we recommend individual traders, if they’re trading on their own, they do the same thing. Don: Right, and that’s another reason why I love commodities. I have great respect for the work that you and James do there. It’s because you study the fundamental information on these markets. You know where the corn stocks are, you know the seasonal patterns, you know when grain pollinates, you know when the harvest begins, you understand world market, and you understand the United States Market. There was a story on TV on something that kept the commodity prices really not in sync with the true supply and demand. You have the ability because of your experience and because you stay up on these things- that’s your job. You can talk with your investor and let them know that it’s a puff news story or rumor or whatever. A number of years ago, there was one case of mad cow disease in Canada or someplace that crossed the Northwest United States. This sent ripples through the commodity markets, just on potential that we might not be able to buy a steak in 6 months. As a result of that, on down the line, prices went way up on the cattle. A lot of people that thought they wouldn’t be able to afford cattle got rid of the breeding stock and we’re still recovering from that, even though it was years ago. It takes a specialist in commodities and in these markets. Each market can be very specialized, and I don’t know very many people, any people, who are good at all the commodities markets. I know people claim to be, but I’ve never seen it and I’ve never heard of it. You have to go with 4 or 5 markets that I’m familiar with and have experience with and it’s kind of like writing a book. You have to write what you know and you invest what you know. You take things that you have all that experience in, rather than take a whack at something that might look attractive temporarily but you really don’t understand the market. That’s the value of having somebody like you at Option Sellers. These high net investors you serve, that’s the pivot and the very heart of what you do. The other side of that is being able to know the math and understand the mechanics of the market and things like seasonal volatility, and you incorporate fundamentals in there. With a high net worth investor, they can do things that most of my readers probably will never be able to do. They have a large enough capitol. You take a small investor that’s just starting out and maybe has an account of $10,000. There’s no way he can afford to draw down $5,000 the first week he makes a commodities option investment. I find net worth investors are not only able to tolerate that, but able to use the system that you guys use. I think it’s amazing and they can have a great deal of success with that. The huge benefit to investor for the types you do, I don’t recommend people start off dealing with a highly complicated commodity market, and the strategy that might be a naked option with unlimited risk, because, for a small investor, that can put you out of business in 2 days. You’re done. I teach that we’re going to start this way, we’re going to practice it, and we’re going to build it slow and sure and they can be able to do that. They can’t afford the same programs you offer for high net worth investors. For the people who do fit that category, I’ve never seen a better way to do it than what you guys do. Michael: Well, I appreciate that Don. I do, that’s a great point to make, as well. I do agree with you. I think there are some advantages of economy of scale when you get into and working with higher dollar amounts. Obviously, that’s one of the reasons why we have our minimum where we do. There are strategies that can fit almost any size of investor. It’s just a matter of matching the strategy. Let’s talk about that a little bit, Don. You’ve traded commodity options, you’ve traded stock options, do you have a preference for either one or an advantage(s) you think one might have over the other? Don: Yeah, well, like you just said, you’ve got to find suitable investments for the right advisors. For myself personally, since I have a lot of experience in both stocks and commodities, I stay in both. To me, normally, people will trade stocks first because some of the volatilities and some of the limits on all the smaller accounts, and they will start off in stocks and things. Those are the people that I suggest in my book a great deal, and I don’t talk a lot about commodities in there because I don’t want to give beginning investors the impression that they can make a killing in commodities. I’d start to sound like one of those ads I read a moment ago. Those things are doable, but they have to be doable to the right investor. Giving advice to my readers, one of my favorite trades is the vertical credit spread. They can put a capitol on a risk and make a relatively high return in 30-60 days out selling some options, and then they buy an option further out-of-the-money so they put a cap on any lawsuits they might have. When you do that, you can compute the risk of war ratios and it helps you with your money management in the account. Just like a floor trader, your first job every morning is to get up and survive to invest another day in preservation of the capitol, whether you’re a large investor or a small one. That’s number one above everything else. Now, I don’t get paid for selling any advisory services. I just do not want to do that. I ran around for a long time and managed a lot of money in hedge accounts and things, so it’s not something that I want to spend, at my age, the rest of my life doing. So now, I just love being able to write and share some of the information every day. I had a note here that I wanted to go over with you… These days, the old pros that learned years ago when they were doing Black Scholes computations, slide rules, it’s so 1985, to tell new investors that you don’t have the experience, you’re better off not even going with those options at all. You go find yourself different stocks. I read a Warren Buffet story one time that had a great impact on me. You remember the old mutual funds, and still many people have them these days. The ETF did kind of a better version of some of that type of investing. I don’t miss mutual funds lately, but I don’t choose investing in them. It’s because of what I read that Warren Buffett had said. I’m paraphrasing, “If I own race horses and I have a stable of 80 horses, and I know that 10 of those horses win 90% of their races. I’m not going to run all 80 horses, I’m just going to run the winners and stop picking now when the market has a new normal because of the news channels, the types of investments, and the sophistication. I think you have to find some winning bets. Frankly, 80% of options expire worthless; they’re certainly investigating to be able to go there. But you don’t race the whole stable, even though they are all thoroughbreds, because you just tend to jot down your profits. We live in an age with Internet and all the toxic information along with the good. The trick is being able to shift that out and to be able to discern which kind of investment is right for you.” I think Warren Buffett was on to something there. You know what they say about normal- it’s just a setting on the dryer. None of us are normal. Our needs and aspirations and everything are just not the same. I think those are decisions everybody has to make for themselves. Michael: I love that analogy of the racehorses and I also like the way you applied it to the options because it really does carry over like that. As you mentioned, if Warren is listening to the OptionSellers.com Radio Show, we certainly invite him to call in and give his opinion on that. Don: Well, he has been known to make millions off of covered calls. Michael: I know. It’s surprising if you go in at times in different part of the Wall Street Journal articles about who bought or sold these many options in the options market, and you don’t picture guys like Warren Buffett and Carl Icahn making these big option trades. You see them taking positions in stock, but they sell a ton of options. It’s well documented. Don: They’ll buy a great dividend stock these days that’s 2 ½ or 3% and then they sell covered calls on it. I don’t have their numbers in front of me, and I never will, but they might be able to make 5-15% more a year depending on the markets and the timing, but they can make a very nice return. Putting your money in the bank these days, you remember the old rule of 72... you just divide the annual interest rate into 72 and you get the years that it takes to double your money. If interest rates are 2%, it’ll take 36 years with your money in a bank savings account in CD’s to be able to double the money. For most of us, that’s just not acceptable. Michael: Yeah. I agree. I want to go back to something you mentioned because I did want to re-visit your book for just a second. You describe some really solid option strategies in there, but you said your favorite option selling strategy, you preferred vertical credit spreads. That’s one of our favorite strategies, too. Can you maybe just go through a quick description of how you would write that if you’re writing it on a stock or commodity, for instance? You probably talk about stocks in the book, so maybe just talk about how you would do that on a stock. Don: Sure. Well, first of all, I’d pick a stock. The nice thing is, and you go over this in your material too, anybody selling options has to understand that one of the major advantages is that I don’t have to guess prices direction or the amplitude of the timing. I just need to know where I think the stock price will not go. Then, in ¾ of the time, I’ll make money with it. That’s the whole thing. Vertical credit spreads limit themselves to this. If I had a stock that I think is going down or that it has already gone too high, I don’t try to press the reversals, but maybe it starts reversing. You want to be able to try and sell some options. With the market near it’s top all-time highs now, there’s a school that thinks it’s going higher, a school that think it has got to turn around and go lower, citing the bad economic news given daily now. I have no idea which one is going to be right. That’s why I don’t sell the apart, out-of-the-money call if I think the stock is going down. That leaves you with unlimited outside risk, because if price overruns your strike price, you’re going to be in the hole- it’s going to cost you and you’re going to lose money. With a vertical credit spread, you go just a little bit above the strike price. You go a little bit above the price where you sold the call and you buy a cheaper, less expensive call, and that puts a cap on your potential losses. So, with a cap on your losses, let’s say you’re a beginning option writer in stocks. You may collect $150 in premium by selling the call at a lower strike and then by buying one of the higher strike you might spend a third or a half that money, say $50 out of $150 to put a cap on your losses. So, if you have losses that are at the most $500, and you can make $100 profit off of it, that’s 20% in 30-60 days, which is great return on your money. Michael: Now, that’s a great strategy. I was glad to hear you say that because a lot of books and going back to some of these courses out there, they’ll talk about things like converted butterflies and everything. I know those can have their place, but a lot of times, especially for individual investors, they can be difficult to implement, especially if you’re doing it on a larger scale. We always say simple is better and vertical spreads are a great, simple strategy that can also be very effective. Don: One of the things, I get a lot of e-mails from my readers, and a lot of these people have never dealt with options. Most of them have little stock experience. A lot of them, frankly, are young millennials who had a couple of babies, they’re married, and they’re working as hard as they can, and they have money saved and they want to be able to use their laptop or iPad or whatever it is to be able to fiddle with options to try and make a little extra money. Of course, I try to tell them fiddling is not the preferred word and let’s get to work. You can make some money that way, but you have to be very, very careful about what you do as part of that with money management controlling your risks. The vertical credit spread and small steps are able for that. Another thing about most of the e-mails I get from my readers- almost everybody and I think that as a society, the financial planners have taught us to think this way. Maybe they’ve heard too many bank commercials, I don’t know what it is, but people immediately start thinking in terms of making thousands of dollars over years of time. I think that doesn’t allow them the focus that they need. It’s fine to dream and have a plan, we all do it, but when you wake up in the morning and you have something in front of you that you have to deal with, investing some place, so I try to tell them just to find an easy goal. Maybe start with trying to make $50 or $100 a day or a week or whatever suits their account. That’s very doable. You can’t get up in the morning and make several hundred thousand dollars and put it away and wait 20 years to collect it. I suppose there are some ways you could do that, but for an individual investor, you have to deal with what’s in front of you. I think trying to help people focus their attention to something they can do right now to begin to achieve some of the longer-term goals is the way to go. Michael: Yeah, that’s a great point. It’s a great discussion on options there, Don, and I appreciate that feedback. Let’s just talk a little bit briefly here to talk about how you pretty much trade for a living now. Would you say that’s a fair assessment?... or professional trader? I know you trade a lot of your own money, but do you have an opinion on the stock market right now for 2016? What’s your outlook? Don: Well, it depends on what the talking heads on the network say. What’s so funny to me is that those guys can come out one day and explain a bull market and then get up the next morning, go in at 6:30, and they’re talking about the bear market that we’re in and they never bat an eye. They can change. There’s a reason for that- it’s almost impossible to forecast what the market is going to do next. I can’t do it- I’m not that good. For that reason, I choose options and I try to make my money by knowing probably ¾ guess on what’s not going to happen instead of trying to predict what is going to happen. I think my odds are a lot better. I know it’s a disappointing answer, and when they get these experts on CNBC or wherever, at the end of the interview they say, “Well, what do you think about the market?” They always have a good answer and then they back-petal a little bit. Then, when it’s all said and done, I’m thinking, “What exactly did you say?” It’s confusing to me. I can’t tell the future. All of us can connect the dots backwards, but trying to do it forward is just impossible, which we talked about the other day. Nassim Nicholas Taleb has a book called Black Swan, and it’s about improbable events. If you’re a little bit of a sophisticated investor and you love to figure the odds of investing I think it’s a must-read. It’s a really interesting book. Whether you’re an investor or not, it’s a little walk down probability and philosophical terms. Michael: I’m familiar with the book. It’s a great book for especially sophisticated investors- somebody that’s really looking to get into trading and understand the nuances of it. Your answer was not disappointing at all. In fact, the guys that say “I don’t know what the market’s going to do. Nobody knows what it’s going to do”, those are usually the guys that really know what’s going on. I like that answer. Don: It’s like you say in your new material- sometimes you can take a news event or whatever happened, whether it’s stocks or commodities, sometimes those over-reactions or under-reactions can present some great investment opportunities. Michael: I agree 100%. One of the things we like to say is, and it takes people a while to get their arms around that, because it’s almost the opposite of what everyone else is doing, but you’re saying “Look, I don’t know what the market is going to do. I’m just going to pick something I think it’s not going to do.” Once people can understand that approach, it changes their whole outlook on how they invest. Don: That’s right, and a lot of people will tell you otherwise. But by and by, just keep your boots dry. Michael: Yeah. That takes a minute to think about, but that makes a lot of sense. Going forward, I know we’re not making predictions here, but do you have any favorite sectors of stocks or commodities or anything you’re keeping an eye on for the rest of 2016? Don: Well, I think part of the new normal that is developing, and we don’t know if it’s right, hindsight or not, but I look at the individual stocks and the ones that are my favorites are not gambles on new technology, but trends because of disruptive technology. The greatest example of that right now is a stock that I own known as Amazon. To these people, there seems no end. Half of their income now is from AWS, Amazon Web Services, in this cloud computing that they’re selling. They’re not even famous for that and it’s half of their income for the company. I’ll be the first one to tell you, on our way downtown, my wife asked me the other day what I want for Father’s Day. I said, “Well, I have a few items”, and she said, “Well, I’ll take you shopping”. Immediately I’m thinking, “Whatever it is, I can get it cheaper on Amazon and have it here in 48 hours”. I’m guilty. I know people do this all the time but I’ll admit it that I walk into brick and mortar stores and I’ll find something there and I’ll just think that I can make a better deal by internet shopping. I’ve done it for years. I’ll step outside the store and get a cup of coffee, get my iPad, and I’ll order one. A lot of retailers get mad at me for saying that, but it’s just the elephant in the room- that’s what people are doing. Not in every instance, of course, there is still people who enjoy going through the deals and being able to go out, it’s a social activity. When I need something, I’m busy and I don’t want to spend 30 minutes in the car to go down and buy what little item I needed- I’ll just order it online. Again, that’s my point with disrupted technology. This is what happens for investors, too, specifically smaller investors. Maybe you and I were investors a few years ago and we didn’t have the same information the pros have, we didn’t have instant quotes, and our smart phone has more electronics in it than the Apollo 11 Moon Mission to put a man on the moon. Commissions have fallen- first it was the discount commissions, you know, Charles Schwab and those who were innovative in that area. Now, electronic trading on a portable computerized device - iPhone, iPad, Tablet, Microsoft, whatever it is – that has displaced a lot of the brokerage business. For small investors who want to use self-directed accounts, it’s a perfectly great way of doing it. Conditions are low and you have the same (virtually) news and quotes that the pros have. Of course, for high net worth investors, they have the option because of their accomplishments of being able to probably find an easier entry point by finding somebody like you guys. Michael: Well, yeah. I agree with your assessment there. Disruptive technology is really affecting almost every industry. It’s certainly a sector to keep an eye on if you’re a stock investor. Don, just on a personal note, what’s your favorite investment book? Not counting yours or mine… Don: Well, like I say, although it’s not written as an investment book, I like books like Black Swan. I’m a voracious reader and I always have 2 or 3 books going at one time. I’ve got all 3 of the Taleb books right now and I’m alternating between them. There’s such good information out there in many things. I’ll just say Black Swan for right now, it’s not the book of a lifetime, but it’s one of the books I find pertinent in the type of environment that we have to invest in. We have to be aware and keep in mind those black swans – if you’re read the book or heard those terms, those are things that seem to come out of the blue and they’re totally unexpected but they have a very profound and lasting impact on society and culture and finance and everything else. It’s a wonderful topic and it’s very interesting to explore. Michael: Absolutely. Don, how can investors buy your book? If they want to get a copy of it where can they go? Don: One word: Amazon. The quickest, fastest way to get the best price, just go to Amazon.com and you can search for Options Exposed Playbook. That’s it. Michael: Excellent. Well, Don, this has been a great interview. We really appreciate you coming on. We hope you’ll be willing to come back again sometime to give us some great information here. Don: You bet, Michael. It is a pleasure to be able to talk with you more. I appreciate the opportunity and I want to thank all of the listeners you have out there and the people who have been reading your blog. Thank you very much, good day, and I’ll see you later. Michael: Great, Don. Thank you.

Kelly Coughlin interviews Donald Moore about generating more revenues from trust and wealth management clients and managing risk in that business line. Moore is a former OCC examiner.   Donald Moore Jr., CEO of Bearmoor, LLC has over 20 years of experience in the asset management and fiduciary industry. He has served in senior fiduciary positions with various US Treasury agencies, as well as a leading financial services consulting firm. He began his career as a Trust Examiner with Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. He has examined over 50 trust divisions, including the lead position at two of the nation’s largest trust institutions. He has assisted in the development of national policy and guidelines at both the Comptroller’s Office and the Office of Thrift Supervision. Kelly Coughlin is CEO of BankBosun, a management consulting firm helping bank C-Level Officers navigate risk and discover reward. He is the host of the syndicated audio podcast, BankBosun.com. Kelly brings over 25 years of experience with companies like PWC, Lloyds Bank, and Merrill Lynch. On the podcast Kelly interviews key executives in the banking ecosystem to provide bank C-Suite officers, risk management, technology, and investment ideas and solutions to help them navigate risks and discover rewards. And now your host, Kelly Coughlin. Kelly: I’ve got Don Moore CEO of Bearmoor LLC. Don, how are you doing? Don: I’m doing well, thank you Kelly, I appreciate the opportunity to chat with you today. Kelly: Don, you’re in Boulder? Don: I’m not quite in the Republic of Boulder, I’m a little bit closer to the Breckenridge area up in the hills of Colorado. Kelly: You’re happy because the Broncos just won the Super Bowl, I take it. Don: I’m slightly indifferent to the Broncos winning, although they had their ginormous parade yesterday down in Denver. Everyone’s excited that Peyton got his Super Bowl, but again, I think it was the defense that won it for him. Yeah, we’re happy here in the state. No one’s going off the edge yet. Kelly: Let’s get right into it. Tell me what Bearmoor does. What’s your value proposition? Don: Basically, it’s the optimization of risk-adjusted revenue from an organization’s existing fiduciary activities portfolio. It’s basically their personal trusts, their investment management accounts, their retirement accounts, foundation endowments and custody. All those off-balance-sheet activities within the fiduciary world. Again, the optimization of their risk-adjusted revenue from their existing portfolio. Kelly: First of all, it’s banks that are in the wealth management business. They have trusts, they have wealth management capabilities, correct? Don: Correct, a lot of organizations that are clients, their definition of wealth management differs, but it does include trusts, insurance, and private banking. Kelly: You help those kind of banks do what? Don: Optimize top-line revenue. What we mean by that is, I like to use a quote from Bono, the lead singer for U2, he was up at his concert and doing one of his social announcements where he was clapping his hands and he said, “Do you know, every time I clap my hands, a child in Africa dies?” And someone screamed out, “Stop clapping your hands.” We don’t focus in on expense because for the past 10 years in the industry, the industry’s been focused on nothing but expenses. The expenses have outpaced revenue growth 6 out of the last 10 years. Their focus on expenses I don’t think, has been all that fantastic. We like to say, “Well you’re already focused on expense reduction, we want to help you grow top-line revenues.” Our value proposition leads to an increase to revenue top-line. Kelly: Before we get into how you do that, let’s talk about some personal background. Don: All right, I’ll start out with education. I went to school, got a degree in finance and accounting, after I graduated from that I went to work for the United States Treasury Department as an examiner with the Office of the Comptroller. The currency, the OCC, I found an opportunity to begin examining in the fiduciary world and I became a fiduciary examiner. Through that, I went to Washington, DC. For those of you in the fiduciary world that have an understanding of Regulation 9, when I was in Washington, DC I helped draft and write that regulation that now national banks follow. For most states, it’s been adopted verbatim on that. I left there, and went over to another Treasury Department, the Office of Trust Supervision, which has now been rolled into the OCC and wrote their fiduciary training program and some of their examination procedures over there in a fellowship capacity of 18 months before leaving and going to the consulting world, and focused on consulting in the fiduciary world, and that brings us to where we are right now. I am married to my wife Toni, we live out here in Colorado, we have four children. Hobbies; I would say right now we’re doing lots of skiing, got some good snow out here in Colorado, so that’s one of my hobbies. Do a lot of running, outdoor activities is me. That’s who I am, I’m 52 years old and I feel it every day. Kelly: Don and I have known each other for probably 15 years, and we made a good connection when we found out you grew up in Minnesota, correct? St. Louis Park? Don: Yeah, sure, you betcha. Kelly: Let’s talk about the business. How do you help these banks make money? How do you help a wealth management bank make some money? I want to come up with let’s say five take-aways on how our listeners can make money through what company like yours offer. Don: Let’s start out with, the opportunities for increasing top-line revenue within your fiduciary activities exist. They are out there. I like to use the phrase, “You’re standing on a whale, fishing for minnows,” because there’s already opportunities to increase your top-line revenue within our organization. What we mean by that is we go through and do an analysis account by account basis and identify opportunities in three phases: one, gap analysis which is, “Hey, where are you missing it?” From the standpoint of what you think you’re getting. You may have some system errors, system inaccuracies that can help you identify opportunities, that’s one phase. Second one is competitive analysis. Where is it that you would like to beat your competition, and where is it that you actually are? We ask you what your business’s strategic plans are, we go out and do mystery shopping and competitive shopping for the organization to make sure that they understand where they are and where their competition is, and where they can go with their current level of pricing. The third analysis is a regulatory analysis. What’s changed in regulation that allows you to either understand the regulation and generate additional revenue, or do we have some risk there? Again, gap analysis, competitive analysis, regulatory analysis to help you identify those opportunities, because they do exist. I would say that’s the first area. Kelly: You exposed that just recently, gap analysis. You’re looking at pricing, and how competitive they might be in pricing in addition to more of a qualitative, these are the type of services they would offer? Don: Along the lines of both, Kelly, with regards to the types of services we want to break it down so we understand the types of services they offer. Then the pricing that they have on each of those services. When we talk about pricing, we all know that there are committees, and then there are boards, and we’re talking about the board-approved pricing for these services. Kelly: This is for wealth management services. These are the basis points. This is how much we charge for a $5,000,000 fiduciary trust account, correct? Don: Correct. Absolutely. Those are established by, I would say, the business line which then goes to the committee and the boards approve. These are the pricing and it would include not just basis points, but it would include minimum account fees, it would include fees for ancillary services such as real estate administration, closely held business administration. Maybe there’s a tax prep fee or a tax information letter fee. Maybe there’s a stand-alone fee for extraordinary type services. All the fees charged for the services provided within wealth management on the fee schedule. We then go through and see what accounts are actually on that schedule, and what accounts are not, what accounts have customization, what accounts have discounts. It doesn’t make sense for the level of service being provided. What’s critical with that, from a Bearmoor perspective, is what I would say would be the second take-away, which would be a risk understanding of your accounts. If you haven’t done a risk assessment on an account by account basis, it would be highly recommended that you do so. This would allow you to identify the level of risk for each account and type of account using system information. This isn’t something that’s subjective, it’s based upon system criteria that you’ve established and put risk weightings on it. Let’s say you have an account that is an irrevocable trust account with two co-trustees, five beneficiaries, some unique assets in there, and maybe it’s over $2,500,000. You would assign various risk criteria to each one of those factors. Maybe that has a higher risk than a revocable trust. Kelly: You’re not talking about portfolio risk, you’re talking about risk of an unhappy client (other than portfolio volatility). Don: Correct. What we’re seeing is a fair amount of, I hate to go back to the regulatory side, but a fair amount of regulators are saying, “Hey, we can risk rate loan accounts on the banking side, why can’t we individually risk rate these off-balance-sheet trust accounts from an administration standpoint, from a level of risk?” and then get some understanding about what may be some levels of capital might be for this entire portfolio. It’s not investment portfolio risk management, for lack of a better term it’s complexity rating the account. Kelly: Give us three things that you like to look at, that might go into the calculus of that. Don: I would say type of account. Kelly: The fiduciary, non-fiduciary. Don: Correct, you would have the fiduciary accounts would be those revvocable and irrevocable trusts, investment management accounts, foundation endowments, IRAs. Then the non-fiduciary lower risk would be a custody account, where you don’t have any investment management responsibilities. Another item would be the type of assets in there, so maybe less risk would be a mutual fund portfolio, that’s made up of a bunch of mutual funds to meet the account’s objective. A higher risk would be, “Hey, it’s a stand-alone investment in a large piece of commercial real estate.” High risk on that. The third thing would be type and/or number of beneficiaries. The larger the beneficiary pool, the more risk you may have because you have different competing objectives. Some of those might be income beneficiaries, others might be remainder beneficiaries, or growth beneficiaries. Kelly: The high-risk account would be one in which there’s a fiduciary relationship to your holding assets that are perhaps individual securities and not mutual funds and the third? Don: Number of beneficiaries. Kelly: Number of beneficiaries. Is that because the more people you have in the equation, the more likely it is you’re going to have somebody complaining about it? Don: More likely there’s going to be a complaint there, but more likely that there’s going to be conflicts of interest. What I mean by that conflicts of interest is those beneficiaries may all have different needs and you as the fiduciary that’s managing that account, have to take all those into consideration and make sure you treat them equitably and fairly based upon the information you have. Kelly: Tell us how you help the bank make more money. Don: From that account by account analysis on the gap analysis and identifying opportunities within their portfolio. Not just from a best practices from what we’ve seen over the past 15 years of doing this, but also what’s taking place within their lines of business and their strategy. Overlaying that on that analysis and saying, “Hey, here is the opportunity, and here’s how that opportunity impacts each account.” Kelly: This is for your part one you look at the market, you look at competitors, and you say, “Oh, your competition’s charging 200 basis points, you’re only charging 150. You could charge 180,” for example. Don: Correct. If you still want to be the low-cost provider and the lowest-cost provider is charging that 200, and you’re at 150, you could go all the way up to that 200 and charge 190, 180. Right. Kelly: Right. Don: Do that complete analysis. Or your minimum fee is stated to be this, we’ve done in a cost analysis of your portfolio and you’re not even covering your costs with your minimum fee. You’ve got to adjust your minimum fee. Kelly: Don’t you think most banks know their competitor? Let’s say pricing, and their level of service, because they either get clients poached frequently, or infrequently, and if they find out why, then it’s well, his is cheaper, or better service, whatever it was. Don’t you think they know that? Don: That’s what we thought. That’s what we were counting on, but when we started doing the mystery shopping, because we asked our clients who are their competitors, who do they want us to mystery shop. Then we also provide them all the other information that we have. That, other than the actual opportunities, was one of the most highly prized pieces of information that we provided to our clients was, “Oh, look at all this competitor information.” My business partner and I looked at each other and said, “Wow, we didn’t realize how valuable this was. We thought you guys knew it, we’re showing it to you to let you know that we know it.” You would think they would know it, but a lot of times that isn’t the case based upon the information that we were able to gather and the reaction that we get from those. I think they have an understanding of it, but once they actually see the documentation and support for that that we’re able to gather, that brings it full circle. Kelly: I’m intrigued by, and I always have been intrigued by you being a former regulator with all due respect to your former profession, the dark side I suppose, or actually I think when you go into industry, they say you’ve gone to the dark side, I believe. However you look at it, how a former regulator can help on the revenue side is always been amusing to me. I know you do have a pretty good reputation out there, so kudos. You’ve been doing it quite a while, I believe. Don: Yeah, I appreciate those comments. Perhaps my capitalistic views weren’t always the right forum to be a regulator, so maybe I’ve always had to get back to this side. Maybe I was on the dark side and came back to the light. Kelly: Any more takeaways? Don: I would say re-acceptance, and what I mean by re-acceptance is, based upon the information that you have today on your existing accounts, the level of administration, the level of responsibility, the potential problems associated with the risk audit compliance items, the regulatory issues, and the revenue that you’re making on it, would you re-accept the accounts in your portfolio today? If the answer to that is no or maybe, you need to actually go through and do this risk assessment and the revenue opportunity assessment to make sure be able to answer that question yes or these are accounts we no longer need to be a part of. Kelly: It isn’t just no longer be part of, it may be no I wouldn’t accept it under these terms. These terms being pricing, but would you accept it at 50 basis points? No. Would you accept at 150? Yes. Isn’t that as much of a relevant question as acceptance or non-acceptance, it’s how should we price this thing? Don: Proper pricing is critical. We have top 10 risk piece that we do and one of the top 10 risks is appropriate pricing, so you’re absolutely right. “Hey, I wouldn’t re-accept it because of the assets.” That’s one thing. I wouldn’t re-accept this because of the price and the assets. Could we price it accordingly where you would accept it? Absolutely. That’s part of the analysis we do. Kelly: Why don’t you post on our website the top 10 risk pieces in a blog post? Don: Absolutely, I can do that. Kelly: That’d be nice to accompany this. That’s it for now, give us your favorite quote. Don: It’s Milton Friedman the great economist. “The question is, do corporate executives, provided that they stay within the law, have responsibilities in their business activities, other than to make as much money for their shareholders as possible?” My answer to that is, no they do not. Basically, everyone should stay focused on generating revenue for the shareholders for where they have their fiduciary duty. Kelly: What’s the stupidest thing you’ve said or done in your business career? Don: This is classic me, and this took a long time to live down. This was years ago. I basically said, I used another quote when I was giving a presentation because someone asked a question with regards to revenue enhancement and I said in front of this entire group, “Life’s tough, but it’s tougher if you’re stupid.” Yep. Kelly: Good one. Don: I was much younger. Kelly: Don, I enjoyed talking to you, thanks so much for your time. We want to thank you for listening to the syndicated audio program, BankBosun.com The audio content is produced by Kelly Coughlin, Chief Executive Officer of BankBosun, LLC; and syndicated by Seth Greene, Market Domination LLC, with the help of Kevin Boyle. Video content is produced by The Guildmaster Studio, Keenan Bobson Boyle. The voice introduction is me, Karim Kronfli. The program is hosted by Kelly Coughlin. If you like this program, please tell us. If you don’t, please tell us how we can improve it. Now, some disclaimers. Kelly is licensed with the Minnesota State Board of Accountancy as a Certified Public Accountant. Kelly provides bank owned life insurance portfolio and nonqualified benefit services to banks across the United States. The views expressed here are solely those of Kelly Coughlin and his guests in their private capacity and do not in any other way represent the views of any other agent, principal, employer, employee, vendor or supplier of Kelly Coughlin.

Episode 66: John Donald O'Shea, Playwright Don O'Shea has had quite the life leading up to his current role as playwright. Learn about his journey from law to playwriting. It is never too late to start writing!   Show Notes The One Technique you Need to be a 21st Century Drama Teacher Don O'Shea's website Don O'Shea's Theatrefolk plays The First Herald Angel The Revolting Cheerleaders Little Nell and the Mortgage Foreclosure Subscribe to The Theatrefolk Podcast On iTunes. On Stitcher. Episode Transcript Welcome to TFP, the Theatrefolk podcast. I am Lindsay Price, resident playwright for Theatrefolk. Hello, I hope you're well. Thanks for listening. Before we get going I have to mention the FREE, that's right FREE drama teacher training we're offering this week Saturday November 9th at 12 noon EST called The One Technique you need to be a 21st century Drama Teacher. OK. That's a mouthful but the title says it all – 21st century skills are becoming necessary for today's teacher but what if you don't have time to become a technology expert? And how could you ever keep up with students who eat, sleep and breathe technology? And what do drama and technology have in common anyway? Are we all gonna sit in front of our computers and do improv games? So this training is just for you. I'm going to show you what you need to be tech-savvy in the classroom with specific exercises for drama teachers and I promise this workshop is 100% technobabble free. All you need is access to the internet. Go to 21drama.com. That's the number 21. 21drama.com and registar for this free training now. You do not want to miss out. So today we have an interview with another one of our authors. John Donald O'Shea who goes by Don. And Don has three plays with us, a classic melodrama with a modern twist called Little Nell and the Mortgage Foreclosure, a full out modern melodrama called The Revolting Cheerleaders and a lovely gem of a Christmas play called The First Herald Angel. Don has had such an interesting journey along his playwriting path of which the takeaway is it's never too late to start writing, and everyone can find that doorway into their creative side. OK. So take it away Don! Lindsay: Hello everybody, I am here with one of our playwrights. I have Donald O'Shea. Now, you go by Don, is that right? Don: Yes I do, and I think I was one of your first playwrights. Lindsay: I think you were, too. We've got three of your plays. We have Little Nell and the Mortgage Foreclosure; The Revolting Cheerleaders, which is one of my favorite titles; and The First Herald Angel. Don: I think you're correct. Lindsay: Oh, good. It always embarrasses me when I get names of titles [laughs] of other people's works wrong. [Laughs] Don: [Laughs] Because you were my first publisher, I always sent my plays to you first. Whether you use them or not is up to you, but I've always respected the fact that you were the first guy to put me on the map and I like to send my stuff to you first. So that's kind of how I operate. Lindsay: That's awesome. Okay, well, that's the first thing I want to talk to you about, is before you started writing plays, you had a pretty different life. Don: I had a very different life. Lindsay: Tell everybody what was your job. What did you do…? Don: Well, I started out as a young assistant state's attorney. I graduated from that – I became the city attorney of Moline, Illinois, and about four years later in 1974 I was elected a circuit judge, and I did that for 26 years. In Illinois, you don't run for reelection on a partisan ballot – you run on a retention ballot, and I was retained four times. You have to run every six years. Lindsay: Right. Don: So that's what I did. Lindsay: So where does playwriting fit into this? Don: It all came about when I was a member of the Board of Directors of the Quad City Music Guild. They in those days produced three musicals each...