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Things don't always go as planned in life and in business. It's important for property management entrepreneurs to be able to roll with the punches. In this episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management experts Jason and Sarah Hull discuss a recent experience where they were forced to pivot and adapt over and over again. You'll Learn [01:58] The Original Plan [05:31] How a Winter Storm Distrupted a Business and Family Trip [08:52] Moral of the Story: Be Prepared [11:08] Your Plan is Not Always the Right Plan for You Tweetables “Moral of the story is be prepared.” “This is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt.” “There may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now.” “ The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Sarah: There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:00:09] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game.  [00:00:17] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the #DoorGrowShow. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:35] Jason: DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. [00:00:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. We're your hosts, property management growth experts, Jason Hull and Sarah Hull. Now let's get into the show. Alright. [00:01:16] Jason: So, today we are recording this episode at, what time is it now?  [00:01:22] Sarah: It is almost midnight.  [00:01:23] Jason: It is late. On Monday. And this will go live or be streamed later. And so if you're watching this, thanks for watching. And we're not actually like real time live at this moment, but it's because we had to change things up and make different plans.  [00:01:42] Sarah: Live in the moment, we're probably still in the car.  [00:01:45] Jason: Yeah, so we will be driving tomorrow during our podcast episode. So we wanted to record this episode real quick so we can get one out. And in today's topic, we're just going to share a little bit of our adventure. And, you know, the moral of the story will be things don't always go according to plan. [00:02:03] Jason: So.  [00:02:04] Sarah: Sure don't.  [00:02:05] Jason: Alright, so, where do we start?  [00:02:08] Sarah: Alright, well, let's do quick synopsis. Where are we right now? Ohio, I think? I'm pretty sure we're in Ohio.  [00:02:15] Jason: I think so.  [00:02:16] Sarah: I think it's Ohio is the right answer. So, we've been to, in the last few days, we left on Friday, we've been to Texas, we've been to two days in Tennessee, we accidentally went to Kentucky, now we're in Ohio, tomorrow we're going to Pennsylvania. [00:02:30] Sarah: So, I think that's five states. Five states in five days. It's a great time. So, we're driving from Texas to Pennsylvania. It's supposed to be a straight shot, up like this. And it's this crazy record breaking winter storm, and we're driving through some of that. We're missing the big part of it. [00:02:51] Sarah: So we had to adjust our route. So our plan, this was our plan, was to leave on Friday. We're going from Texas to Memphis, Tennessee. Then the next morning, we were going to go to Graceland. We did do that, and then we spent some time in Nashville that evening. And then from Nashville, we were going to go to Morganstown, West Virginia, and then from there, drive into Dallas, Pennsylvania. [00:03:18] Sarah: So, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, we were supposed to get to Pennsylvania on Monday, which is tonight, we are not in Pennsylvania. We are, I'm pretty sure, somewhere in Ohio, past Akron. And where, what's the name of this?  [00:03:32] Jason: Youngstown.  [00:03:33] Sarah: Youngstown, near Youngstown. That's where we are, right now. And so that was our plan. And then because of this crazy storm, we were leaving Nashville. We left Nashville. Roads were fine. Then all of a sudden, a little bit of rain. That was okay. Then, snow. And that was awful. And we were trying to get from Nashville, Tennessee up to Morgantown, West Virginia. Did not happen. Not even close. So we were going to stop in Lexington, Kentucky for lunch around like 3 o'clock or 3:30. That was not the plan. We ended up staying in Kentucky because it took us so long to get to Kentucky because of the crazy storm that we then had to stay overnight in Lexington and then reroute. So we were going this way and now we're going that way.  [00:04:31] Jason: So do you want to share why we're doing a road trip? [00:04:34] Jason: Which is crazy to do.  [00:04:36] Sarah: It's crazy to do. I know, right? I could have flown there in a day. So we're driving my car that I've owned for a couple years now. I'm driving to Pennsylvania, and I'm giving the car to my mom as a gift. She has absolutely no idea.  [00:04:52] Jason: It's a surprise.  [00:04:53] Sarah: That this is happening. [00:04:54] Sarah: I don't think she watches the podcast.  [00:04:56] Jason: No. Probably not.  [00:04:56] Sarah: Hopefully it's safe. But I'm gifting the car to my mom. I want her to have a nice car, and a reliable car, and not have to worry about things. So, I'm gifting her the car. She has absolutely no idea. Coincidentally, it's also in a couple of days, my brother Jason's birthday. [00:05:14] Sarah: So, shout out to Jason. Happy early birthday. We love you. And we're going to do this little trip. We're going to see my family for a little bit. We're going to go out to dinner for my brother Jason's birthday. Give my mom a car, and then fly back home and we are running an event. So that's why we're doing all of this in the first place. [00:05:31] Sarah: The whole crazy part of the story here is when we left Nashville, we were trying to get to Morganstown. It was insane on the road. Just wildly insane. Like snow, ice, there was a mix, there was sleet. We were going like 40 miles an hour. I was just happy to be moving. We saw multiple cars that had run off the road. [00:05:58] Sarah: We saw a couple of tractor trailers that we're in accidents. We saw a few accidents. We were almost in a few accidents ourselves. And this trip is not at all going as planned. We had to move our flight, and then move our flight again, and then move our flight a third time. So then we, last night we almost gave up on this whole thing. [00:06:18] Sarah: I was going to quit and just leave my car in Cincinnati, fly home. back to Texas and then come back and finish the second leg of this trip a second time. Jason woke up this morning and he said, "I think we can do it, babe. I think we can do it." So here we are, but this is not...  [00:06:35] Jason: We were not prepared for this storm. [00:06:37] Jason: This car had pretty bald tires, which was... we were not ready.  [00:06:43] Sarah: No.  [00:06:43] Jason: Yeah. So after sliding off the road a little bit, twice, yeah, on a freeway.  [00:06:50] Sarah: On a freeway.  [00:06:51] Jason: On a highway. Yeah.  [00:06:52] Sarah: And car is supposed to be heading in this direction, and then it turned in.  [00:06:57] Jason: And we were just off to the side, so we were able to get back on the road safely both times. [00:07:02] Jason: Thank goodness. Yeah. And not get hit by a tractor trailer.  [00:07:05] Sarah: Yeah, we didn't get hit by anything. The car didn't get damaged. We are safe. And to that I can only thank God. The whole time I was praying, our fathers, I was saying Hail Mary's, our fathers, the whole time. I was just praying to God and God took care of us made sure that we were safe made sure the car is safe, made sure that we got where we were going, made sure we didn't get stranded in the car because we saw a couple people stranded.  [00:07:30] Jason: Yeah.  [00:07:31] Sarah: It was scary. [00:07:31] Sarah: It was really scary.  [00:07:32] Jason: We eventually pulled off and went and found a tire store  [00:07:36] Sarah: Yeah, we were going to continue out there for a while.  [00:07:38] Jason: Got new tires.  [00:07:39] Sarah: And something told me it might have been God telling me like "go, you need tires. Go get tires." So I said to Jason, I said, "Can you find...?"  [00:07:47] Sarah: Can you find? No.  [00:07:49] Jason: I wanted to get some better tires on that car, for sure. [00:07:51] Sarah: So, I said, "is there a tire place that's like, nearby, that's open right now, that we can go to right now?" So we did. Took a little pit stop detour, but it was very well worth it. I just don't think we would have made the rest of the trip in one piece.  [00:08:06] Jason: The first tire store we went to was closed.  [00:08:08] Sarah: Yeah. Like it wasn't even plowed to get to it. They were closed. The third one was a tread. So we got new tires. That's good. The guy at the tire store, what did he tell you? The tread level was like a four. It's real, it's really bad.  [00:08:21] Jason: Yeah.  [00:08:21] Sarah: It was real bad. Yeah. So, that was fun.  [00:08:23] Jason: So We got fresh tires. Then the car drove really well. [00:08:27] Jason: Plus we had pretty much made it through the worst of the weather, which we had planned. Because there were two ways we could go. The northern route had less weather, so.  [00:08:39] Sarah: Yep. That's why we're in Ohio.  [00:08:41] Jason: So.  [00:08:41] Sarah: And not through West Virginia.  [00:08:43] Jason: Yeah, we'd probably be in a very terrible spot if we had gone the wrong way. [00:08:47] Jason: So.  [00:08:47] Sarah: Yeah. We'd be off on the side of the road frozen like popsicles. Oh gosh. You guys would never hear from us again.  [00:08:52] Jason: So moral of the story is be prepared. Make sure you're prepared. Have a plan. And so we've done lots of plans and changing of plans and so this is part of life. And this is how businesses work. Your best plan is sometimes going to fail and you're going to have to come up with a new way of doing it and you're going to have to adapt. And so one thing entrepreneurs, we are good at is adaptability. We figure it out cause we have to, and we adapt. And so we've adapted a lot today. [00:09:23] Jason: And yesterday. The last couple days. Yeah, the last couple days.  [00:09:25] Sarah: We had a plan, we changed a plan, we changed that plan, we changed a plan again. We just keep changing it.  [00:09:30] Jason: And that causes us. We're just rolling with the punches. That causes us to have to adapt in business. So here we are recording a podcast. [00:09:36] Jason: Here we are.  [00:09:36] Sarah: At midnight.  [00:09:37] Jason: In a hotel room.  [00:09:37] Sarah: Which Jason did not want to do.  [00:09:39] Jason: No. No. I was like, we don't have to do anything that we don't want to do. We don't have to do this.  [00:09:44] Sarah: No. And I said, we are not recording a podcast live from the car because we might die. No.  [00:09:49] Jason: We're not going to do that.  [00:09:49] Sarah: We might die live on camera. [00:09:51] Sarah: Yeah, that would be...  [00:09:52] Jason: All right. So hopefully some of you got some value from this. If you do not have a good plan for your business, then that's something that we can help you with here at DoorGrow, help you come up with a plan, and help you adapt to some of the things that are getting thrown at your way. [00:10:09] Jason: This is why we mapped out the DoorGrow code, our roadmap, for some of the most common challenges and problems. So if you would like a copy of the DoorGrow code, just reach out to us. We'd be happy to give you one and tell you a little bit about how we might be able to help you and hear about your challenges. [00:10:24] Jason: So reach out to us. You can check us out at doorgrow.Com or go to our website or join our free Facebook group by going to doorgrowclub.Com. Make sure to answer the questions. We reject 60 to 70 percent of the applicants that try to join that group. So it's only for property management business owners. [00:10:44] Jason: So if you own a property management business or seriously planning on starting one, then you can request access to that group. Make sure to answer the questions. We would love to have you inside. And that's it.  [00:10:55] Sarah: No, that's not it. No.  [00:10:56] Jason: Oh, there's more.  [00:10:57] Sarah: That wasn't it. I said, what are we going to talk about this episode? [00:11:00] Sarah: I told you what we're going to talk about, then we just... So.  [00:11:03] Sarah: It's not the end of the episode. Surprise! A little bit more. But wait, there's more! [00:11:07] Jason: But wait, there's more.  [00:11:08] Sarah: So for those of you that do have a plan, and you're like, "yeah, no, I definitely have a plan. This is not applicable to me," we had a plan going into this as well. [00:11:17] Sarah: So, when you have a plan and life does not work out the way that you planned, and things don't work out the way that you thought that they would, and you're going through things and you're trying to figure out, you know, "what am I doing wrong? And why isn't this working? And like, why is this so hard? I don't understand why it's not happening the way that I wanted it to happen," and why it's just maybe not happening at all... [00:11:40] Sarah: or maybe it's happening, but it's just so slow, and it's so hard, then you just need to know that sometimes there's a bigger plan in place for you somewhere. And if you're religious, you might believe that God, or the universe, or fate, or whatever you might want to call it. There is a bigger plan out there for you, and there may be a reason that things are not going the way that you wanted them to go right now. [00:12:07] Sarah: There may be a reason that you're not experiencing the results that you thought that you would at this stage in the game. Just like when we thought we would go to West Virginia. Had we actually gotten to West Virginia, we'd be stranded there for sure, because they are getting hammered with snow right now. [00:12:22] Sarah: So the whole, like, West Virginia, D. C. area Hammered with snow, and that was our plan. So I'm grateful, although it's a little crazy, I'm grateful that we didn't end up going that way. I'm grateful that there was a bigger plan in place for us. So just trust that you do have support when you reach out to people like your mentors, and if you're in the DoorGrow Mastermind, there are so many resources for you, including property managers who are in the exact same spot that you are in. [00:12:56] Sarah: They've been there. They've done that. They've experienced everything. So leverage the resources that you have available to you. Know that there's support and know that everything is unfolding exactly the way it's supposed to for you in this exact moment. And you will have your breakthrough. The only time that you won't have your breakthrough is if you quit. [00:13:14] Sarah: See, and now we're done.  [00:13:15] Jason: Good words. Good stuff, Sarah. All right.  [00:13:18] Sarah: All right. We're going to go to bed now.  [00:13:20] Jason: Yeah. Get some sleep.  [00:13:22] Sarah: Yep.  [00:13:22] Jason: So until next time, to our mutual growth. Hope you all crush it. Bye, everyone. [00:13:27] Jason: you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:13:54] Jason: At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

"How do you sum up 2021"The gruesome two sum James & Jason are to become a temporary troublesome trio as they are joined in the studio by everyone's favourite news man Paul to chat all things 2021.Good or bad? happy or miserable? which ever side of the fence you fall on we hope that you are all safe and wellThey talk about the games they have enjoyed most, and other positive gaming related bits & bobs that have also come out of this past year as well as few soppy thank yous The Meeple Minded team would like to take this time to thank you for joining us on our journey this year and we look forward to bringing you even more table top gaming content in 2022Merry Christmas meeples and have a happy gaming new year Game safe.James, Paul & Jason --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thank you all so much for choosing to listen to our humble down to earth Table top gaming podcast. If you do like what you hear, please do subscribe as we will be uploading a new show every Tuesday @ 7am GMT, ready for that commute into work, or gym session :)you can also now watch our new video content on the Meeple Minded YouTube channel links down below.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Find our audio Podcast on all good podcast platforms or find the links on our host site .  https://meepleminded.buzzsprout.com/You can join the ever growing Meeple Minded communityhttps://www.facebook.com/MeepleMindedMediahttps://discord.gg/HtgzKDABhttps://twitter.com/MeepleMindedhttps://www.instagram.com/meepleminded/Please also Like, Share & Subscribe here on Youtubehttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCInqK3k50OVrutTCodvw3FA

What you'll learn in this episode: How to avoid SEO charlatans and ensure your digital agency is getting results Why a beautifully designed website doesn't necessarily equal a high-ranking website Why an SEO strategy means nothing if a firm doesn't have a proper intake system What insights you'll find in Jason's new book, “Law Firm SEO” About Jason Hennessey Jason Hennessey is an internationally recognized SEO expert, author, speaker, entrepreneur, and business executive. Since 2001, Jason has been reverse-engineering the Google algorithm as a self-taught student and practitioner of SEO and search marketing. His expertise led him to grow and sell multiple businesses, starting with a dot-com in the wedding industry. After presenting his SEO knowledge to a group of lawyers in 2009, Jason founded and later sold Everspark Interactive, cementing his reputation as a thought leader and authority in SEO for the legal industry. As CEO of Hennessey Digital since 2015, Jason grew a small consultancy to a $10MM+ business that made the Inc. 5000 list for the second year in a row in 2020, and he also runs SEO industry news site iloveseo.com. A keynote speaker and frequent podcast and webinar guest, Jason is a columnist for the Washington Post and a regular contributor to Entrepreneur, Inc., and the National Law Review. His team is currently preparing to open Hennessey Studios, a state-of-the-art audio and video production facility located in the Television Academy building in the heart of Hollywood where Jason will host a podcast interviewing entrepreneurs and business leaders. He also recently released his first book, Law Firm SEO, described as the “holy grail of digital marketing for lawyers.” Jason is a United States Air Force veteran and holds a Bachelor of Arts degree in Marketing from the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. A New York native, Jason launched his SEO career in Las Vegas and grew his reputation in the legal industry in Atlanta. He now lives in the Los Angeles area with his wife, Bridget, and their three children. Additional resources: Website: jasonhennessey.com  LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhennessey/ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/jasonhennessey/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/jason.hennessey.399 Twitter: ​​https://twitter.com/jasonhennessey  Published Book: Law Firm SEO: Exposing the Google Algorithm to Help You Get More Cases Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast Transcript: When Jason Hennessey discovered SEO in the early 2000s, it was a largely unknown novelty. Today, SEO is the cornerstone of digital marketing, and Jason leads a successful agency, Hennessey Digital, that specializes in SEO and digital marketing for law firms. He joined the Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast to talk about how he landed in the legal industry, why he's so passionate about empowering lawyers to understand SEO, and why he wrote his new book, “Law Firm SEO.” Read the episode transcript here.  Sharon: Welcome to The Law Firm Marketing Catalyst Podcast. Today, my guest is Jason Hennessey,. Hennessey Digital works with law firms to maximize their SEO, their search engine optimization, and rankings. Today, with ranks being impacted by all aspects of the online world, Jason's firm works with law firms on their websites, blogs and social media in order to maximize their rankings on Google. We'll learn more about Hennessey Digital's work today. Jason, welcome to the podcast. Jason: Thank you, Sharon. I appreciate you having me. Sharon: We're so glad to have you. Thank you much. To me, SEO is its own art and science. You can't do a lot more besides that. You can't become an expert in other things. Tell us about your background there. Jason: It's not like I was a kid and I said, “I want to be an SEO person when I grow up.” There was no such thing. I got into SEO back in 2001. I had just finished college. I was going to UNLV in Las Vegas after I had gotten out the Air Force. I was contemplating taking the LSAT to get into law school, and then my journey took more of an entrepreneurial route. I started a couple of businesses. As a result of starting the businesses, I had to learn how to market these businesses, and search engine optimization was one of the first things I studied. Back then in 2001, when I got into SEO, there wasn't a lot of information on it. There were a couple of books that were reliable and a couple of blogs, so I started to read up on it and I got pretty good at it.  Then in about 2008, I was living in Atlanta, Georgia—we relocated our family there—and I got asked to speak to a group of lawyers. There were 50 DUI law firms that didn't compete with each other, and they met for a mastermind in Atlanta. I got up there, didn't know anything about legal marketing, but I gave a presentation about how I was able to rank on Google for the keyword “wedding themes,” because one of my businesses was an e-commerce website. As a result of me being transparent, a couple of relationships were made; a couple of business cards were handed out, and that was the genesis of how I got into legal marketing. Sharon: Were they banging your door down saying they wanted you to do that for them? What happened there? Jason: After I showed them exactly how they could rank their websites on Google for the terms that were important to them with practical examples, I think they realized they didn't want to do that themselves; they wanted somebody to do it for them, or they already had people that were doing this for them that weren't as transparent or weren't getting results. That's how the conversation went: “Here's my card. Do you do this?” I'm like, “Well, not really, but give me your card. Maybe we can talk.” I thought, “Maybe there's something here. Maybe there are law firms that really need help with their marketing. They should be getting paid to do what they're good at, and that's being good lawyers, being in the courtroom, depositions.” We got one or two clients as a result of that. We turned those clients into case studies, and then we used those studies to grow our business.  Sharon: Was there something that intrigued you about doing it in the legal world? Jason: It's probably one of the most competitive spaces from a digital marketing perspective. I was up for the challenge because here I was, ranking nationally for another competitive space, wedding favors and weddings, and this was a little bit different. I didn't know the vernacular of law, so I started to go the conferences. I would sit in the conferences and listen, and I would listen to the phone calls they were getting as clients were working with them to truly understand their world and that vernacular. Since 2008, I've been immersed in that industry, so I'm one of the thought leaders in legal marketing. I just published a book called “Law Firm SEO,” which I'm proud about.  Sharon: Congratulations! We'll have a link to the book and you can tell me more about it. Jason: Thank you. Sharon: In our experience, when we started out we were working with defense firms, and they were still wondering whether they needed a website, let alone SEO.  How do you find the reception now? Does everybody say, “Oh, yeah, we do that. We spend millions of dollars on it”? Jason: Yeah, we do a lot of work with personal injury law firms. There's a lot of demand in those markets, and those are some of the most competitive keywords from a pay-per-click perspective. There are lawyers that will pay $400 or $500 a click just to send somebody to their website. Over the years, we've also started to work with criminal defense lawyers, bankruptcy lawyers, even business attorneys as well. In fact, I actually found my business attorney—I live in Santa Clarita—by Googling. Even me, as a consumer on the other end, I use Google myself to try to find things, whether it's a restaurant or whatever. Particularly in this case, I found my business attorney that way.  Sharon: Now, everybody finds everything today. The first thing you do is go on Google or one of the search engines. Whether you want it to or not, it puts it right there.  Jason: Yes. Sharon: What's the reception? Today, is it more like, “Oh, tell me about it”? Is it more like, “We have guys who do that, but I'm not sure they're doing a good job”? What do you find? Jason: I think that's it. It's a very nebulous space, and most of the attorneys are not really educated on digital marketing. They should be, and it's a little intimidating. If you were to go to a bookstore and pick up a book on SEO, it's in the computer engineering section. Lawyers are not really—their brains, for the most part, generally aren't wired to be coders. That was one of the main reasons why I ended up writing this book. It was to educate and empower lawyers, whether you're just out of law school or if you run a very successful, hundred-person firm. It educates and empowers you to understand it without the complexity of understanding how to write code. I break it down in a very easy-to-understand format. As a result, lawyers will now be armed with the right information to make good decisions with their business, to know how to keep score when they're paying an SEO company, and overall how to not get taken advantage of. In our world, there are charlatans that, in some cases, will leverage the nebulous and confusing world of digital marketing. That was my biggest thing, to make sure lawyers are never getting taken advantage of in this world, too. Sharon: You're probably in a similar situation to us. Being a marketing and PR firm, we always find that if we're talking to a prospective client, they say, “We've done that. We've worked with people. It didn't work.” You find yourself being two steps behind before you even start. How do you handle that?  Jason: This is one of the ways, to be honest with you. When they say, “Hey, I don't know. I've been burned so many times. It just doesn't work. I'm not sure if I should even do this,” we never really sell anything. When we work with a client, we're never selling; we lead with education, and the education is based on our experiences with the clients we work with today. In some cases, we'll be able to show them why it wasn't working, and we'll be able to educate them in a way so they understand it. If they really want more information, then we'll basically mail them a book. If they're curious about why it's truly not working, we'll say, “Here, read the book. This will give you a much bigger understanding of what goes on behind the scenes.”  Sharon: Do you find today, because search engine rankings are so critical no matter what you do, that practice areas that weren't interested before are starting to come to you? Let's say the corporate practice area might have said, “What do I need it for?” Do you find they're showing more interest? Jason: Oh, yeah, 100%, corporate. We even work with Ben Crump, who's a national civil rights attorney. That wouldn't have been the practice area we would have started to go after as far as marketing ourselves 15 years ago; “Let's go after a civil rights attorney.” But now, it's important. There are different aspects of coming up with a strategy. Sometimes it's just educating. Even then, it's educating with answers, FAQs, and creating video content to be more of the trusted source when a consumer is in the market for an attorney for whatever it is they need the attorney for. So, there's definitely branding, there's direct response, and then sometimes there's educational content that they should be putting out on the web. Sharon: Are you called in by lawyers, by managing partners, by law firm marketers? Who calls you in? Jason: It really depends. We like working with marketing directors because they speak our language, but most of the attorneys we work with, a lot of them don't even spend a lot of time in the courtroom anymore. These are businesspeople that are very aggressive marketers. Sometimes the most successful lawyers are not the best in trial; it's the guys or the ladies that are actually the best marketers. In most cases, we either work with a marketing director or we'll work with the owner of the firm who is the partner that does the marketing, that one that's buying all the billboard ads and on TV and radio. That's typically who we work with. Sharon: Do you find that all works together? My question is, do you ever have to come in and say, “O.K., we've got to tear the website up and start over,” or “Let's take another look at your social media”? What happens? Jason: Yeah, in some cases, we'll take over a campaign and one of the first things we'll do is look at the website. We'll try to audit, like what are the blockers here, what's going to have the highest impact, what changes can we make right away that will have the highest impact? We'll get in and do that, but we also educate. We bring our clients along so they truly understand what we're doing and it's not confusing to them, because if it's not confusing to them, they'll appreciate us a little bit more. From there, once the site is fixed, sometimes we'll go for a redesign if that's needed.  Sometimes the sites are nice as-is and we can take that and fix the technical, SEO side of it. From there, it comes down to a couple of things, like maintaining the integrity of the technical code. We do that on a regular basis. We develop content strategies where we write and publish content on our client's behalf, and then there's the stuff you guys do with PR in bringing the eyeballs to the website. That's so important. We work with PR companies for some of our clients. We also do something called link building, and link building is how you boost the popularity of your website. When somebody links to another website with a blue underlined link, that's like currency on the web, and that's how websites become popular. Once a website becomes popular, that's how it ranks well in Google, and that's how you start to get traffic. Sharon: You talked about charlatans. Are there companies that promise to give you a thousand links by tomorrow or something? Jason: Yeah, avoid those. Sometimes it's better just getting one link by becoming a member of the National Trial Lawyers or becoming a member of the Better Business Bureau. Sometimes that one link is better than a thousand of those spammy links that you referenced there. Sharon: Yeah, there's a lot you find if you're clicking around. What would you rank as the biggest barrier to success in this area for law firms, or what mistakes do you see? I guess those are two questions. What mistakes do you see in law firms? Jason: Making sure that you're following the right playbook and you have an agency that has some success in the area of law, because there is a difference between somebody that has a great deal of experience with e-commerce versus working with law firms. That's important, but believe it or not, the other side is that a lot of lawyers are spending a lot of money to bring in more phone calls and more leads, but sometimes that's where they fall down; they're not really prepared on their end with the proper intake. This was actually something we ran a study on, because one of our clients was saying, “Hey, I don't know why, but the SEO just doesn't seem like it's working.” We're looking at all the traffic and phone calls, and it's a campaign that's doing very well and it was really surprising to us.  What we did was plant a lead into his intake. We filled out a form submission on his website, and it was a real, qualified lead. Thinking that we would get a phone call within at least an hour, nothing happened. Nothing happened the rest of the day, and it turned out that we got a call back two weeks later. We were like, “Well, that's the reason why.” If you're getting leads and you're getting back to people two weeks later, there's something obviously broken on your end with your intake. That inspired us to go out and do a whole study. We reached out to 700 law firms and planted the lead around the same time on a Monday morning. Believe it or not, 42 percent of the law firms that we reached out to didn't even respond back to us. Sharon: Wow! I can't say I'm surprised. So many times, we may not be handling the actual SEO, but we will work with the law firm and the people answering the phones to put a process together and that doesn't happen. Jason: That's critical, because it's one thing to spend a lot of money to generate the traffic and the leads, but to fall down when they actually call, that's a constraint. A lot of law firms during their growth, they have to fix that. Sharon: It's more than a constraint; it's a real waste of money if you're doing your job and they're not getting the phone calls. Jason: That's exactly right. Sharon: Then people are saying, “Well, if you're not going to respond, I'm going to call somewhere else.” Do you find resistance to search engine optimization? When you say that's what you do, do you find firms saying, “Oh, we do fine”? Jason: We're not in the business of cold calling people, because (a) good luck getting through the gatekeeper, and (b), you're selling what seems like snake oil in our industry because it has such a bad reputation. I think a lot of law firms don't really understand what is involved with SEO, so in some cases, they have a designer that designs them a new website and codes it and they say, “Do you do SEO?” and they say, “Yeah” and then they build a new website. A couple of weeks later, they have a nice website, and they think they have SEO now because they can check that box, like, “Oh yeah, my developer did the SEO on it.”  That couldn't be further from the truth. SEO is something else. It's like your health. Seriously, I look at it like that. If you want to remain healthy, you don't just eat an apple and say, “O.K., I'm good now.” It requires constant jogging and eating healthy and dieting, and that's how SEO is. SEO is a core to your business. You have to continue to maintain it; you have to continue to make it better. Publishing content on a regular basis is important, making sure there are no issues within the code on a regular basis is important. It's definitely an ongoing strategy. It's just a matter of how aggressive you want to be. Sharon: What haven't we talked about that you want to let us know? Jason: The book that I wrote again is called “Law Firm SEO.” You can find it on Amazon. Sharon: “Law Firm SEO.”  Why did you decide to write it? Jason: I decided to write this, again, because it's been 20 years of me learning this, and I genuinely wanted to give back.  Like I said, I wanted someone in law school that is interested in the business side of law to get a general sense of what this takes; what this world that I'm going to be competing in looks like. So, for $25 on Amazon, you can tap into 20 years of experience that I've had to go through. Sharon: At one point, lawyers could do this all themselves. You didn't have social media and everything else that you need to think about today. Jason: Yeah, and that's point of the book. When you're starting out, you either have time or you have money to solve a problem. For example, my sprinklers broke this weekend. I don't know a lot about sprinklers. I can invest my time into going on YouTube and watching videos about how to fix sprinklers, or I could just call somebody and they can come and fix it. I'd prefer to use my money, in this case, to have somebody that's more professional come and fix it, but if I didn't have the money, guess what? I'm going to have to watch YouTube and figure this out myself. I think that's the same with law firms, whether you're just getting started or if you've been in practice for a long time. It really comes down to time versus money. Do you really want to learn this and, if that's the case, spend some time reading about it?  The book was written in a way where those that read it could certainly spend time starting to learn and teach themselves this or, alternatively, you could be armed with information now that you've read the book, and then you could make a better decision in hiring somebody to help you. When people say, “Hey, is SEO still valuable? Should I be investing in this?” I don't think SEO is going away anytime soon. The question should be “Should I do SEO versus pay-per-click? Where would I invest my money?” I don't think it's an either/or question. I think if you're able to generate business from paid marketing, continue to feed that marketing channel with a budget and continue to generate business as a result of that. If you're able to generate business with organic, with SEO, again, same thing. Continue to test it, tweak it, and then keep ramping up where things are working. I think digital marketing for law firms is very valuable, and I genuinely hope those that are listening pick up the book, “Law Firm SEO”—it's available on Amazon—and I genuinely hope that you get some real value from it. Sharon: Jason, thank you so much for being with us today. This has been very interesting and informative. Jason: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it, Sharon.

Mini malls, shopping centers, and large department stores all still exist and remain popular despite their digital counterparts But online marketplaces are where more and more brands are gathering to not just sell goods, but to get a better 360 view of their customers, and gain access to sell products from other big name brands that fit their marketplace niche. On this episode of Up Next in Commerce, I explored that idea a bit more with Jason Wyatt, the Executive Chairman at Marketplacer, a business dedicated to creating marketplaces. We dove into the various ways that Jason has seen marketplaces evolve, especially in recent years. Plus, Jason talked about some of the incredible innovation that he’s seen take place  thanks to marketplaces — including the birth of Providoor, an Australian marketplace for restaurants that was built as a reaction to COVID-19 and reached a $100 million run rate within 12 weeks. We talked about how the marketplace connections made that possible, and also how the B2B landscape can be revolutionized thanks to marketplaces. Enjoy this episode!Main Takeaways:Getting The Bigger Picture: By creating a marketplace, businesses can get a much deeper picture into the attributes of their customers, while also gaining access to inventory and products to sell from big name brands. The key to success? Curation.We Have A Connection: One of the greatest advantages of a marketplace are the connections that can be formed within them. Especially from a B2B perspective, because for so long those buyers have been left out of the ecommerce equation. They desire the same level of connection and ease that those in B2C have come to expect though, and marketplaces have provided a way to create community and engagement that has made B2B selling and buying much easier.Long Live Loyalty: Big brands have long tapped into loyalty programs as a way to earn customer trust and keep them coming back. By expanding point systems to usage within a marketplace, brands are now becoming even more trustworthy and respected in the eyes of consumers, who can all of a sudden get more bang for their buck. Additionally, the rise of wide-ranging marketplace loyalty strategies will likely become a new way for retailers to attract customers to newer marketplaces.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone, I'm Stephanie Postles CEO at mission.org and your host of Up Next in Commerce. Today on the show, we have Jason Wyatt, who currently serves as the executive chairman of Marketplacer. Jason, welcome.Jason:Hi Stephanie, thanks so much for having me on the show today.Stephanie:Thanks for hopping on at 7:00 am. I think you're one of the earliest guests I've talked to over in Australia, so I appreciate you coming on and joining me for a fun chat.Jason:No worries at all. It's just a pleasure to be on the show and talk to your community.Stephanie:I was hoping we could start back in your... way back in the early days when you were 13, because I saw a fun story about what you were doing back then and a little entrepreneurial spirit that was going on, and I was hoping you can kind of share what you're doing back then so people can get to know you a bit before we dive into Marketplacer. This is all around a loan that you got from your dad if you know what I'm talking about.Jason:Well, I might, I was actually... I was a mad sports fan, as the majority of Australians are in this country. And I was playing tennis at the time, if I'm on the right track with this story. And we used to play a lot and pretty competitive. But my brother was a lot better than me, but I used to sort of grab onto his heels, but we constantly used to break racket strings. And we didn't come from this massive affluent family. We come from a family of just, the harder you work, the luckier you get. But dad, what he did do is he loaned us the money to buy our own stringing racket. He just said, "If you keep breaking these strings, well you got to fix them yourself."Jason:My brother and I took advantage of that situation. We figured we had an unfair advantage versus the other tennis players within the group. And then what we actually did is we turned that into a little tennis racket stringing business. So at the age of sort of 13 or 14, we were making a hundred bucks a racket, stringing out sort of four rackets a night and we had a little good business going on. I suppose the entrepreneurial spirit sort of started at a very, very young age where we had a problem to solve and then we solved it for other people.Stephanie:I love that. It definitely rang close to home because I was out in my neighbor's yard, raking, weeding doing anything I could just to earn $5 here and there. And I love hearing about how other people had that itch early on too, and seeing what it turned into later on in life.Stephanie:I'd love to jump into Marketplacer a bit and hear what is it? When did you create it? And what are you guys up to today?Jason:Marketplacer is probably the most fascinating business that I've ever been associated with, because it enabled so much global connection and enables people and businesses all over the world to sell things they don't own and to really supercharge commerce. And the story started back when my co-founder and I, Sam Salter, we just had a simple idea 13 years ago to make it easier for people to buy and sell bicycles. And we created a business called BikeExchange. Think of cars.com for bikes. You're buying a new bike and you want to see everything in one single destination or you're selling your bike and you want to sell it to a community that's a trusted community, has a sense of belonging behind it. And we created BikeExchange. But in doing that we had some really, really big, tough entrepreneurial problems to solve.Jason:We had to come up with a sales and marketing plan. We had to come up with a customer success program, but most importantly, the technology never existed. So, we not only have to be great salespeople, not only a great customer focused, but we had to become technologists at the same time. And we just thought, in everything, in creating a business, in creating a marketplace on a global scale it's a problem that we could help other entrepreneurs or other businesses now actually start to use a platform to enable them to be able to create it. So the story was born out of solving our own problem, out of eating our own dog food in a technology term. But now we help people all over the world in 10 countries solve that marketplace journey, of really just making it easy to connect a customer and community to make it easier for them to sell things they don't own and to supercharge commerce. And I'm sure we're going to unpick what that means in a lot more depth over the next hour or so.Stephanie:That's awesome. What's wild to me is that building a marketplace is notoriously like the hardest thing you can do in commerce. Everyone struggles with supply side, demand side, how to build which one first, and you're not only doing it once. You're replicating it, using your software and doing it with multiple industries. How do you even go about approaching it, especially if it's a new marketplace?Stephanie:You had your bike one, I know earlier you were talking about meal delivery from restaurants, how do you even think about building a new marketplace and solving for both sides of the market?Jason:It's a really good question because we always identify what we consider to be an unfair advantage when we help our clients and customers really figure out whether it's a worthwhile strategic project for them. Because it's a strategic project to go through, that marketplace journey. And the unfair advantage has really been always anchored around two core elements. The first being an existing community or audience or customer base that you know they want to buy more things from you. Or you know you can connect them up in a single destination to improve that customer experience. And the second is more often not the ability to have an in-depth knowledge of the supply base, a connectivity into that supply base and product base. You can actually really exploit the now and explore the future around connecting those two sides of those marketplace journeys.Jason:The evolution and the story of a marketplace has really evolved over time too, from the humble beginnings of a BikeExchange when we first started. It's now in 10 countries, and now we're out around the world and listed on the Australian stock exchange in January of this year.Jason:Thank you, awesome team effort by the team. To really large retailers and brands and, and all types of traditional types of business saying, "Hey, I've actually got one or probably two of those unfair advantages and how can I make it easier for me to grow and drive growth within my existing customer base, without the limits of capital and without the limits of actually producing all of the products, but enhancing my customer experience along the way?"Stephanie:How do you figure out, I mean, how I'm envisioning is that you would probably have like a lead brand who's for the bike one or for the meal delivery one you'd have to have kind a lead person who's owning that marketplace and then they're onboarding other brands as well. And other customers, is that how I'm thinking about it? Because I can't imagine having 20 BikeExchanges where every bike company is, "Well, I want my own marketplace. And I want mine." It seems once you have one, it's probably good enough and you have to be a part of that one.Jason:It's a really, really good question.Jason:There's different types of marketplaces, but the evolution that is really happening at the moment is, take SurfStitch for example. SurfStitch is actually a commerce cloud customer. They're a pure play surf wear brand. They sell hard goods, soft goods and clothing and bus fashion around it. But they've got this community, this tribal community of surfers and they're really a successful business, great growth really, really well leveraged on the commerce cloud stack. But when they looked at their business and they looked at their strategic path, they're constrained by warehouses, they're constrained by the capital, but they had in the back of their mind that they thought that, if we could have the full range of surfboards, instead of only taking 20% of the range of surfboards in all sizes, by connecting up to the wholesaler warehouses.Jason:And then to unpick that to the next layer, when you think about it, a surfer is quite a soulful person. They love the outdoors and are they only surfing? Or are they going hiking on the weekend? Are they exploring the outdoors as well? But I don't want to put a hiking gear in my warehouse. That's too risky, but I could go and connect up to Patagonia to take a full range extension from Patagonia without owning the inventory. So by taking a marketplace strategy or really a growth strategy, what they were really able to do is make it easy for them to connect that to a supplier base, to improve their customer experience and really enhance that 360 view of what that customer is trying to do. Not only from a data perspective, but a product and an experience perspective.Stephanie:Got it. That makes a lot more sense now. And it also just seems the role of curation is so important and whoever's curating the best products and not just throwing a thousand things into one marketplace, really thinking, like you said of, okay, you might be hiking, but you're probably not cooking too. Like I'm not going to put cookware in my marketplace with Patagonia stuff and surf boards. It seems like curation is huge when it comes to that. And also knowing what's trending and what their customers will like is a big part.Jason:Yeah, but it also enables this strategy, the ability to fail fast within there as well. If you put it a camping stove on there or a shower after you go for a surf, to clean yourself off, you haven't bought it. You've had a go at growing in there. It didn't work customers didn't like it. So just turn it off.Jason:With Marketplacer what we really focus on as well, is a really strong vetting engine for the sales force customer and any of our customer community so that they... it's just not a free for all, for all of the products flowing through. It's that ease of connectivity into the supplier base. And then it's the strict controls and measures that you can put in place to enable your customer experience within the marketplace strategy, not just "the everything for everyone" experience. If that makes sense?Stephanie:Yeah, it makes sense. I was going to ask when it comes to marketplaces, how do you guys think about marketplace or versus the Amazons and the eBays and Etsy's of the world that seem like they are kind of creating custom curated collections in a way too. But not as much of a niche level where I would say "Okay, we're going to be doing bikes and here's your community and your people." How do you think about the landscape of marketplaces right now?Jason:It's a very interesting landscape, because it's kind of a bit of a cross matrix at the moment, Stephanie. In that there's B to B, B to C and B to B to C plays within what we're trying to do. And then if you take the types of marketplaces the other way, so all three of those really go across all three gamuts. And then if you take the types of marketplaces, you've got the niche and the tribal based marketplaces, and we put media organizations into that bucket. If you imagine all of the great magazines, like we power lots of magazine marketplaces, where Time+Tide is a good example of a watch marketplace, where they have the beautiful content, they have the trust within the industry. They had a community of people looking to buy watches, but they didn't have that connectivity into the supply. But now they've got it. Another really great example is FishBrain, which is the world's largest fishing marketplace.Stephanie:Didn't know that existed. That's awesome.Jason:I'm not a big fishing person, but think of Strava fishing. Think of a really, really large... I think they've got over 13 million users within the United States now. They wanted that into a commerce play, but they didn't want to own inventory. They didn't have a buyership, they didn't have product developers. It was too difficult to do it. So what they did is they partnered and they connected into the world's best fishing suppliers to create a marketplace. Now that has over 60,000 products to sell that you can just buy.Stephanie:Is there ever a chance of them getting lost. When I hear 60,000 products within a fishing marketplace, how do you get found in that big marketplace?Jason:That's an interesting one. So fishing is probably the best industry to do it because what I have learned about fishing is there's lots of micro products for the local areas. So there's lots of little lures and lots of little different tackles setups, the different communities and different areas. There's lots of niche products within the niche. That one makes a ton of sense to have a really big, broad breadth of inventory within that.Jason:So if you think of the tribe, the addressable market behind people trying to take that convergence of content into commerce and contextual commerce, that space is born for a marketplace. Isn't it? It's an affiliate 4.0 where it can connect into the supply banks. Then you look at brands and retailers and franchise groups and cooperatives. If you actually look at the structure of all of those businesses... Co-operatives and franchise by default are marketplaces. They're a masthead brand their third-party inventory is owned by their franchisees groups. What we're finding in this space is we're just increasing the offering that they can have.Jason:We connect up their franchisees group into a single destination. For example, actually within Australia, we run the largest tire business called Bob Jane T-Marts and Bob Jane T-Marts are a really large franchise group. They're a $600 million business. And tires are a complicated product. They seem simple, but they're incredibly complicated because you've got to match every tire to every car to every wheel ever made, ever sold.Jason:But by creating a marketplace strategy within that, they're really famous for solving one problem. We connected up all the franchise groups via our marketplace technology. But if you think about it, what they really have is car data and car ownership data. What else could they sell a person at the BMW, other than tires and wheels that could enhance their car driving experience? You'll start to see lots of these franchise groups, not only connected in unifying their customer experience, but actually starting to think about how can they enhance their customer experience without the cost of capital burden placed that amongst their franchisees group or cooperative structures and buying groups are in the same bucket.Jason:Then if you just think of traditional retailers, whether they're a pure play or a bricks and mortar or a blend of both. Which the world has a blend of both now, right? There's no real, just pure play or bricks and mortar retailers anymore. So the problem they're trying to solve is exactly that problem we talked through with SurfStitch. How do they enhance their customer experience in store or online. Where they can range extend or category extend, to supercharge their commerce journey within that.Jason:And that last sort of bucket within that is that brand or wholesaler journey. And the brand and wholesaler journey is a really interesting one because it does really touch on those three sort of core verticals that I said at the start being B2C, B2B and B2B2C within that.Jason:The first one's pretty obvious from a B2C perspective, if you're a brand and you can see a perfectly complimentary product, why would you want them to leave your platform to buy it from another platform? Why wouldn't you just connect it up to enhance your customer experience?Jason:If you sell shoes for example, I'm going to dumb it down, but if you sold shoes, how could you connect up with a sock company that had the best brand to associate the shoes with socks without actually owning all of those imagery behind it? And we've seen lots of great examples of that. We actually power the Nokia marketplace. If you're thinking of buying the phone, what other connected product and you put in within that connected ecosystem and Google are a partner of Nokia phones globally now, and all of the Google products is going to be available on the Nokia marketplace.Jason:You can start to see this connectivity piece really, really drive home within that. And then from a B2B2C perspective is how do you not cut out your stockists? How do you find a way as a brand or a distributor in a modern world not to cut them out. Whether it's a marketplace, a unified experience, but what our marketplace platform can do is connect it all up. You can cut your retailer into these third party product sales, but without, without actually going against your traditional business model. And we're seeing a fair bit of that momentum behind it as well. Then the growth space and it's going to be really interesting, because I think that the world is saying how, from a B2B perspective, from a traditional brand, when you're selling to retailers when you're consolidating in a B2B industry, how does a marketplace make sense?Jason:There's Alibaba and then there's not much. The interesting play within there is the unfair advantages to businesses is pretty similar then than it is to a B2C perspective. Their unfair advantage is really anchored around their existing stockists or retailer base that they sell into. They've got a great community of sales representatives or sellers on the floor, who are going around and servicing them. How can they then connect up to other suppliers in other industries that could actually self to that community and we make it easier to do that. And there's a really sort of large demand at the moment behind B2B marketplaces as well. It's an interesting thing to call these things marketplaces. They're not all marketplaces, but what we're doing is we're connecting the world to enable supercharged commerce.Stephanie:I love that. I want to hear a little bit about the revenue numbers. When brands embark on this marketplace journey, what are some stories when a new company starts revising your guys' tech?Jason:It's a really interesting story and journey behind it. I'll give you one example during, during COVID, the world's a different place and we all know that, and there's not much point in delving into what's next after COVID. I think everybody's thinking about what's next after COVID but what we fundamentally know today. It's just a different world. It's a different world than it was in the past. And the power of connection during COVID in a digital sense, drove some of the greatest innovation stories that I've seen for some time. And I'll share the story of Providoor. In Australia, this is a case study we rolled out.Jason:It's nearly exactly this week, last year to the day and a great friend of mine, but a celebrity chef Shane Delia. He owns some of the best restaurants in Melbourne and he's got cooking shows on TV and big personality, vibrant, enthusiastic. Had 150 staff behind his restaurant business at four restaurants, one at the airport. The institution restaurants you know, think of Mamasita in New York. These are like famous restaurants within this country. And he emailed me and he just said, "Jason, I'm stuffed. I've got all of these people, I've got food, I'm just throwing into the bin. I've got leases that I've got to pay, but I've got this one glimmer of hope."Jason:"I've just done a trial where yeah, I'm doing ready, sort of made precut food where the customer just has to finish it off at home. So it's like they're getting the magic of a restaurant quality experience in their home."Jason:And he said, "I've done it for a couple of weeks and I'm selling like $5 to 6,000 a day." And I said, "Well, talk me through the problems that you've sold." And he said, "Well we've solved this packaging, we've figured out how to I get it to the customers with the boxes." He did this in a week, like extraordinary innovation. He's, he's sourced the products, the lined boxes, he's got the dry ice, he's fixed the packaging for this. So the tumor is sort of doing, you know, that those types of volumes in a small way. And I said, "How are you delivering them?"Jason:He said, "Well I've got no choice. My chefs are preparing it, My chef's are driving at 35K around Melbourne, to drop it off at people's doorsteps at 4:00 am in the morning." And I said, "Well, you've probably got to solve your logistics problem in a real quick way. But there's something in this, because there's a demand." You're not doing any marketing, your unfair advantage is you're... I call him a B grade celebrity, he probably thinks he's an A grader. But he's got this celebrity audience that he can tap into. He's got trust within the community. The other chefs will trust him. He's never gonna do anything wrong by that industry or community and customers just loved it. If we could solve a couple of problems, i.e, how do we make it easy for all restaurants to sell in the same way and create a marketplace around it.Jason:And then how can we make it easy for people to get the delivery experience behind it? I think you've got the bones of a really good business. Shane's a pretty good hustler. And five weeks later, we'd pulled every string in the world to get Providoor live. Where the best restaurants within the Melbourne CBD was selling to a 35 kilometer radius of the Melbourne CBD, get it delivered in two delivery slots AM and PM. They would cross stock. The trucks would drive around Melbourne pick up every box. Cross stock it into a single parcel. So you would only get a single parcel. You could order from all the restaurants in one. If you were entertaining in your home or just wanted to release from COVID, or you had a birthday party, or mum and dad couldn't get to the restaurant, then you could actually experience it. And after a 12 week period he was on a $100 million rate. Solving those capital problems.Stephanie:And this was from other restaurants as well that he onboarded onto essentially the marketplace that he created. It started with his restaurant. He brought on others as well. What does the cut look like for him versus the restaurants that are also selling on the marketplace that he essentially established?Jason:Yeah, it was again, really interesting. Shane took, I think it was a 15% slice of the pie. So he actually...Stephanie:Who decides, or you decide when you create the marketplace how much you...?Jason:Yeah.Stephanie:Nice, okay.Jason:It's part of the marketplace platform, when you create a marketplace. We solve all of those commission calculations and you choose, as running that marketplace, what each seller gets, and you can change it by product or category. Now you can do really complex commission calculations, but we also manage all of the seller payouts. You imagine that volume in that period of time, if you're cutting checks, so you're doing individual payments it's un-scalable. So that's why he had to... besides the fact that's why you needed a marketplace platform to, to scale at that rate, but it just shows you if you can leverage those couple of unfair advantages and pull it together in a really neat way and solve a problem, how big you can get quickly.Stephanie:That's crazy. It sounds like you kind of want to make sure you have an audience first or partner with someone who does already have, like you said, that tribe, who's kind of waiting that you can tap into that. How do you go about even convincing customers to come and buy on a marketplace? Are you doing anything around exclusivity where it's if you're selling your bikes or your box meals or whatever on Marketplacer, you can't also sell, I don't know, on DoorDash, do you have DoorDash in Australia? Or something similar.Stephanie:How do you think about creating that moat around the market places that are building up?Jason:I think any business, whether it's a marketplace or not a market place, you create moat. And if you could get the number one selling product of the world and get it exclusive to your business, whether you own it and send it yourself, or whether it comes direct from the supplier. I would a hundred percent recommend that every single day of the week.Jason:In Shane's situation and in Providoor's situation he solved some pretty big problems. No one else in the world, in my opinion, in a five week period could have created this marketplace. And then secondly he partnered exclusively with the logistics company that was an under utilized fruit. You imagined it was a fruit delivery business where they were delivering to corporates, their fruit boxes. And they went from a hundred percent capacity to 0% capacity, but then Shane took them back to a hundred percent capacity. So you've got to, you have to find very innovatively, underutilized, cold, refrigerated delivery network in a really short space of time. He created a couple of really, really solid moats that enabled it, nearly impossible for somebody else to do it in that period. But they were just extraordinary. But the short answer to your question, I'd always promote a moat.Stephanie:So try and make things exclusive, if possible. How do you bring... what are some of these brands methods of bringing their customers onto a new platform? Because that does kind of feel like it could be an experience that might cause a bit of friction of like, "Oh, I'm always used to either just buying directly from your website or just buying from Amazon." What kind of tactics should a brand use if they're trying to convince someone to come and buy on a new platform that maybe they haven't heard of before.Jason:You're talking from the end consumer experience when they're buying from you. It's all around trust in the process. It's in that front end customer experience or any communication around it, it's about building trust and rapport around building a marketplace community. And there's many techniques you can use around that.Jason:Some companies choose not to even say who the seller is on the marketplace. They take a really hard supplier agreement and they say, here's your SLA supplies. If you don't supply under these terms and conditions in these ways, then we're going to exclude you from our community, moving forward. Other marketplaces take the opinion of, "I'll let you rate my supply. I'll let you rate your seller." So it's going to be a customer led trust build up around it.Jason:Other marketplaces over time have put their own sort of ratings and experience... the one thing I'll say around the customer journey when you don't physically own the product is you've got to be really clever and your communicative style. The items might not appear in one parcel, items maybe sent at different times. And if you can bring your customer and community along that journey, they're very attuned to it in this world that you don't get one single parcel from one single vendor every single time and boxes can appear on different days, just as long as the communication strategy around when they're turning up. I mean, the timelines as a customer's experience is really well handled. I think it's a problem that's that's well solved in market.Stephanie:Always good to make sure you're doing it in a trustworthy way where your customers are like, of course I'll go where something's being sold and there's good curated products there. What are some best practices around developing that community and keeping your community engaged and making them want to come to your marketplace that you built up. What kind of tactics do you see happening behind the scenes that are working?Jason:We're seeing at a little bit of scale at the moment, the loyalty programs being attached back into the marketplace strategy. And I think it's a space that's going to be really interesting moving forward, whether it's loyalty or membership economies or subscription economies around it, it's something that's definitely an interesting space.Jason:Take Myer's another example within our region, but Myer's a really large department store. It's the Macy's of Australia. It's the number one department store. They've had some really challenging times, pre COVID and obviously during COVID. Big box department stores, lots of inventory, really expensive leases. And they've kind of been kicked off from every corner. Right. But what they did have is they had an incredibly loyal customer base that actually had a brand affiliation with Meyer, but most importantly had a really strong brand affiliation with the Meyer loyalty program, because it was such a good rewards program.Jason:When they launched their marketplace, they actually gave the customer base the same points that they would earn on Meyer across all third party marketplace products. And you could use your points to buy from all of the third party products.Stephanie:That's imposing.Jason:Exactly. And we won a, I can't say who, but we've won a major global airline at the moment where instead of just being able to book airfares using your airline points, now you can buy 40,000 products using your points, promote burn perspective from your airline miles. So I think what you're going to find is this community of traditional loyalty programs or earn and burn points systems, being able to tap into really broaden their range to become really big, meaningful marketplace strategy, loyalty program.Stephanie:That's super smart. The one thing that's coming to mind is thinking about data privacy and how does the sharing work, especially if you're onboarding other brands onto your platform, I'm guessing I would want access to that customer data. I'd want to be able to talk to them, especially if I'm shipping something to them, or even someone's viewing me as a person that's shipping it to them, even if I'm not really in the backend. What does the sharing of the, maybe customer information look like, in a way that's probably protected and keeps everyone safe.Jason:Say for example, we're talking to the commerce cloud community. If you're a commerce cloud customer, you're the merchant of record in that instance, aren't you? You're always controlling the customer record. You're controlling, you're receiving the funds yourself. But you do have to share the customer address and you do have to share some details of that customer because they've got to receive the items. You've really got to make sure your supplier agreements are quite stringent around data privacy. And then within the marketplace platform, there's a couple of configuration points where you can mask email address and not mask email address. So there's configuration around customer privacy settings that gets forwarded through to that end seller within there as well. But what we actually find is that the broader supplier or seller community is unbelievably respectful of the end customer because they're attuned to selling in this methodology now, and they know if they break or breach those privacy laws or those privacy policies that you set up as a marketplace operator, is that they're going to be cut off and, and they're going to lose that whole channel.Jason:We've had basically no problems of that over the journey of Marketplacer. It's something that's a very small, minimal risk.Stephanie:Amazing. Let's talk a little bit about ads. And I'm thinking about you're this big marketplace. Maybe if you're the fishing one, you've got 60,000 products, I could see you guys having an entire ad unit or the person who maybe is owning the marketplace, starting to create a demand side platform when it comes to delivering ads. And how are you guys approaching that right now with all the brands that you're onboarding?Jason:The world of relevant display and sponsored contents and contextual commerce, back in to market places is a real interesting space. Because if you can not only just send your products to a third party marketplace, but then you can buy specific media around it and launch products within it. It's super exciting. We're actually integrated into Google DMP, and all of those great ad serving systems within that. And what you'll find especially as the world moves into a headless commerce situation, is that the brands can put whatever DMP they want into the commerce cloud headless stack. They can be really quite innovative around, not only just creating traditional revenue streams for the product they own. Not only creating modern revenue streams in the fact that they can sell things they don't own, but now they can actually turn their traditional retail businesses into a media business as well, which obviously comes at a much higher gross margin than physically owning the inventory.Stephanie:Any innovative stories that you see happening around the advertising space within Marketplacer? That brands are maybe trying just new and different things because of the operating model of this new business they didn't have access to before?Jason:The obvious one that just comes to mind is actually BikeExchange. BikeExchange does exactly that every single day of the week. It connects live into all of the retailers. As part of the Marketplacer platform... because some of the problem in the marketplace scenario is how do you make it easy for your sellers to connect? How do you make sure that the inventory is accurate and live? How do you make it so that when a retailer of stock list receives the order, that they can just seamlessly process it, without having, necessarily a billion spreadsheets rolling every direction for everything they sell. We sold that in a really nice, elegant way where if you're on... and if you've got an existing POS system, so point of sale system or an existing e-commerce engine, we built pre-built connectors for the majority of them in the world.Jason:If you're a bike seller selling on BikeExchange and you're on Lightspeed and you wanna send your inventory into the BikeExchange marketplace, it takes minutes. What would typically take hours? Why is this important from a media perspective? It's because then the brands on BikeExchange or Specialized or Trek, or any of the big brands when they're launching a new product, they can actually drive the leads into stores that have stock available today. You can get very clever around your display and media allocation and where you drive the sales to. And a physical stockists level within that marketplace strategy, which is pretty cool.Stephanie:That's huge. I think about the times I try and order stuff Home Depot. And it takes me 15 minutes trying to find what store you can go to pick it up. I'm like, why is this so hard? Just don't show it to me if it's not within 20 miles of where I'm at.Jason:Exactly. And that sort of relevance posts, zip code, allocation and inventory allocation is something that comes out of that marketplace assistant, but it's all structured around live connectivity back into the source seller system. Obviously if a seller wants to connect manually and they've got a few products or they've got a CSV uploader, or they've got a great API, but it's this pre-built connector platform that's enabling our marketplace at the scale at a rapid rate.Stephanie:That's awesome, so where do you all want to be in the next two to three years? What are you planning and prepping for and building for right now, other than scaling and IPO'ing and doing all the fun, things like that.Jason:I think what really drives us at Marketplacer is we just want our customers to grow and to grow in a really sustainable way. Where they can, they can enhance their customer experience. So we've really launched hard within the United States today. We've announced that Salesforce ventures has actually bought a stake in Marketplacer and that enables us... yeah, we're so humbled by it. It's such a great experience to deal with that Salesforce community, but what that enables is any commerce cloud customer globally to now really look at Marketplacer as the way to significantly grow your business and grow your customer experience within that.Jason:It gives us deep access to the Salesforce product team. Gives us deep access to the implementation partner community. It gives us deep access to the actual Salesforce customer success team. What that really enables us to do is to help that Salesforce commerce cloud community grow and connect up to all of these great suppliers, make it easy for you to supercharge that business. And it's a core focus of ours over the next sort of 12 to 18 months, for sure.Stephanie:That's awesome. After hearing all this I'm like, why wouldn't you try this out? Why wouldn't you want to be a part of a marketplace, start a marketplace, so many opportunities and easy ways to scale that maybe it would be hard for single brands to do on their own. That's amazing. Congratulations. That's huge.Jason:No thank you so much and it's a big shout out to how the commerce cloud Salesforce, commerce cloud leadership are thinking at the moment. They're really putting that customer lens first and, and you're trying to grab those trends and you build it back within their community as well.Jason:It takes a little while for you to get your head around it. But when you dumb it down, we make it easy for you to sell products that you don't own. So you can supercharge commerce and grow. That sort of one line, and that sentence can start to really resonate with you. And maybe out of today you're not thinking this is my path, but it might just get those thought bubbles going to say, Hey, what about this supplier? What about this supplier? And if I only had those products, I'd love to try that one, but I don't want to buy it. It starts to connect it all up.Stephanie:Really good way to explain it. All right let's jump over to the lightning round. The lightning round is of course, brought to you by our friends at Salesforce commerce cloud, which they got many shout outs well-deserved throughout this interview. So that is great. This is where I'm going to ask you a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready Jason?Jason:I'm ready.Stephanie:We'll do the hard one first. What, one thing will have the biggest impact on e-commerce in the next year?Jason:I'd like to say the evolution of Marketplacer.Stephanie:That's okay. You do you. You can say whatever you want.Stephanie:What's one thing from 2020 that you hope sticks around throughout 2021?Jason:The ability to put the customer first and solve problems from a customer lens, when there was no other way to do it. And I think that transformative thinking of traditional businesses in that lens is going to put them in a really good light moving forward. We saw the acceleration of five or six years of thinking and thought, and decision-making in the space of six weeks. And just, don't let that go. Don't let that go. Let that stick with you forever. Because I think it's a unique opportunity.Stephanie:What's one thing you don't understand today, that you wish you did?Jason:French. No, I actually don't personally know how to program. I've never been a programmer and it's been to my advantage because I've never got sucked into it, but one day in life, I'd love to actually learn how it all stitches together and works.Stephanie:There you go. Well, that's a good skill to have these days. Let me know if it's hard, I'm guessing it is. If you were to have a podcast, what would it be about and who would your first guest be?Jason:It would probably be about surfing to be honest. And it would have to be Kelly Slater.Stephanie:There you go. That's a good one. And then the last one what's up next on your reading list?Jason:It's actually interesting, because I bought it yesterday. I'm actually reading about gut health at the moment and the benefits of gut health. So I bought the CSIRO gut health book to understand how that can have benefits right throughout your life, from sleeping patterns to energy, to that holistic sort of view that the power of food and what it can do for you or, or can't do for you.Stephanie:Good, you can send me a TLDR of what I should be doing and I'll just listen to you.Jason:It doesn't mean I'm going to do it though Stephanie, this is the problem with reading. You don't always do what you should.Stephanie:We will do it. We will manifest it into our life. We will do it. All right Jason, this interview has been so fun, really a good time hearing about Marketplacer and where you guys are headed. Thank you for coming on, where can people find out more about you and Marketplacer?Jason:Traditional channels marketplacer.com and Jason White on LinkedIn and Marketplacer on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thanks so much.Jason:Thanks so much Stephanie, appreciate your time.

In his first solo show, Jason looks back and reflects on the milestone of 100 episodes. He discuses the biggest lessons learned from the guests and shares behind the scenes stories.Note from Jason: "Thank you for your attention and allowing me to do what I love to do with this podcast. It means the world to me and I appreciate every one of you tremendously. Without you, there is no podcast. I'm very aware of this. Time is a valuable gift and I sincerely thank you for spending that time with me."Connect with us:Perfectly Mentored InstagramWatch the Interviews on YouTubePerfectly Mentored FacebookConnect with Jason Portnoyjportnoy.comInstagramFacebook

Jason Ulaszek is an experience designer, activist, entrepreneur, and educator. He is the founder of Inzovu, a design collective, and UX for Good, a nonprofit that aims to provide elegant solutions to messy problems. In this conversation, we discuss Jason's work on just such a problem: helping Rwandans heal after their 1994 genocide. Show notes Jason Ulaszek on LinkedIn @webbit on Twitter Inzovu UX for Good DePaul University Aegis Trust The Kigali Genocide Memorial The Inzovu Curve Tania Singer Ubumuntu Some show notes may include Amazon affiliate links. I get a small commission for purchases made through these links. Read the transcript Jorge: Jason, welcome to the show. Jason: Thank you very much. Jorge: I'm very excited to have you here. For folks who don't know you, can you please tell us about yourself? About Jason Jason: Sure! My name is Jason Ulaszek and I'm an experience designer. I say that broadly, but I enjoy, creative problem solving. The hairier and more complex the challenge, the further that it stretches your anxiety and vulnerability and desire to learn from others that you work with or the subject matter of who you're working with, to tackle a challenge, all the better. So, I don't know what role that really makes me outside of experience designer that pulls on a variety of different disciplines. That's me. I have an independent design collective called Inzovu, for the last several years, and I have a nonprofit called UX for Good and I teach and speak. I teach as an adjunct faculty at DePaul University in their master's design program and I look for all sorts of other ways to get into trouble sometimes! Jorge: You talked about the sorts of problems that you tackle as being "hairy and complex," and the reason why I wanted to speak with you on the show is because I saw you speak at a conference a few years ago, and you presented a project that stuck with me for a situation that I think fits the description of hairy and complex. It had to do with the Rwandan genocide. And I was hoping that you would tell us about that project. The Rwandan genocide Jason: Sure. Yeah, that's, you know, near and dear to hairy and complex problems and I'll say it's both impacted me personally and professionally in ways that I still think about today and still process and reflect upon on a regular basis. I have a nonprofit organization called UX for Good that we started years ago, at the center of what it was really about at that particular point in time for this story. We had really looked at social challenges in the world and nonprofits, NGOs looking at ways to address their response to their challenges in a different way. And, at the center of UX for Good was standing up design challenges with these types of nonprofit organizations and getting some of the best and brightest creative thinkers together to go through a design and innovation effort, if you will. So, we stumbled upon and had a rare opportunity come to light with meeting somebody, from an organization called Aegis Trust, who happened to also be a genocide survivor, share his testimony and a bit about their organization, Aegis Trust, several years ago, and developed a relationship with them. And one thing led to another and we wound up taking a team of international designers to work with Aegis Trust that had created and manages the Kigali Genocide Memorial in Rwanda to look at the visitor experience associated with that Memorial and Museum of which it is both... because connecting it to the story of the 1994 genocide against the Tutsi, there are more than a quarter million people who are laid to rest in mass graves along the hillside there, which is the Memorial part. And there is a museum that tells the story: the history of Rwanda, but in particular, the story of the '94 genocide. And we were very fortunate to partner with Aegis Trust and their challenge really around not wanting to create more memorials or museums necessarily, but to really harness this... what we both kind of felt was this excess capacity to help people to become perhaps better human beings. Jorge: Some folks listening might not be familiar with the Rwandan Genocide. What happened? Jason: Yeah, the Rwandan Genocide against the Tutsi took place between... the start of it was really kind of April 7th, 1994, and it ended in July that year. So, over the course of a few months' time, and of which took the lives of nearly a million individuals. And it was a mass atrocity, very similar to other mass atrocities we've probably heard stories about and was pretty raw. My exposure and experience to it, having not been to Rwanda or even Africa before, and hearing the story and listening to survivors, listening to others tell their testimony, hearing the story of the history and what transpired, was pretty profound. Nearly a million people lost their lives and, in many cases, extremely brutally. And in a country that [had] I think, maybe 14 million [people]? Something like that. You know, to have a million people no longer part of that country, that'd be almost like wiping out a good generation here in the United States, right? Jorge: Wow, that's really distressing to hear of something of that scale. The victims of the genocide, you said were the Tutsi. Who were the perpetrators? Jason: Yeah, over the history of Rwanda, classes developed in Rwanda. And, over that course of time, I'll just say that a lot of those things were kind of weaponized against their own community in some form or another. And so, that was the Hutus, and there was, a power struggle between those two predominate classes. And, over the course of time, a number of different, significant events continuing to ignite action by many Hutu. And I mean, there's so many stories about the '94 genocide against the Tutsi, but I mean, that's kind of at the highest level, I'd say. Jorge: It sounds to me like these were not — correct me if I'm wrong — that these were not racial distinctions, religious distinctions. It sounds like they had to do with... is it socio-economic class that you're talking about? Jason: Yeah. Power struggle, perspective — a variety of kind of just elements that existed within that. But the Tutsi and kind of moderate Hutu were in power and so there were a number of different acts that took place... pretty violent acts that took place, cascading into a significant mass atrocity and a supporting campaign to enable it. And these were significant acts. You know, we tend to think about maybe in this day and age, guns, right? And that was certainly part of it, but these were militant gangs going from town to town, village to village, home to home with things like machetes and rifles. This was extremely savage and brutal. Healing the rift Jorge: Wow. That is really distressing to hear of this... the depths to which divisions can lead to disaster. How does a society move on from something like that? Because it's... like you said the genocide lasted for a few months, and Rwanda still exists as a country. I'm assuming that the descendants of these people, and maybe some of these people as well, are still around. How does a society recover from something like that? Jason: Strong leadership, a strong sense of cultural values. Putting others first. There's an African proverb that I think... from an outsider's perspective, "I am because you are, you are because I am." You may have, heard that? It's pretty popular, but that's a really great way to describe, I think, the sense of it? You know, strong leadership, strong community organizers and people really who were influential in obviously stopping the genocide, but also leading the way and rebuilding. In 2014 when we worked with the Kigali Genocide Memorial and Aegis Trust, our mission was not about helping them to resolve conflict of genocide, but look at the visitor experience, around the Memorial and Museum, which is... when I say that, it is very broad and has led to a number of different things since that time, including work with helping them think about it how to distribute and scale their Peace and Values Education Program. And so, that Memorial and Museum is used as kind of a centerpiece to be able to drive an understanding of the story, to pull and push the connection with dignitaries and state leaders across all over the places around the world. There are a number of different types of people that come and visit, and the story is empowering and impactful in a variety of different ways. The director of tourism for Rwanda at that time said individuals come -tourists- to Rwanda for the two G's, somewhat jokingly, genocide and gorillas. To learn about that. And that's a big push, those two things, from a completely outsider's point. But what has to happen inside of visiting places like the Kigali Genocide Memorial is an understanding and connection to the stories so that people are so moved to not allow, to always condemn and stand up... condemn the wrong behavior and stand up for what's right after having learned that so that there are hopefully less challenges out into the world. What's really important is: it's an opportunity to help influence social change perspective. That's a big lofty, hairy goal, and doesn't happen just because you visited the Museum and the Memorial and took a tour. It's by how the information is distributed and how you connect with it and the stories that are told and who, and how, and what you interact with. And for some people that is something that transforms you there on the spot. Something that could transform you months and infect your, perspective or point of view months later. Depending upon who you are and how you have a tendency to... I'll say, 'reflect on that,' it can infect you in different ways and in different timelines. So, our work was to look at like how we might have a greater chance to influence the perspective of others, through the visitor experience. Our work, you know, research work there — all your typical forms of kind of design research — looking at the experience, not just digitally, but overall, the visitor experience, was pretty broad and also included going offsite, and looking at what kind of things that they were doing to support their mission, like these Peace and Values education workshops that they were doing in local villages for youth. We probably know elementary and middle school aged individuals that were having profound impact on the success of the country for the next generation as well. It was looking at all these different things that were occurring or not occurring and thinking about that. The design of that experience; what happens before, during and after, to help influence change. And we landed on a model, something called "The Inzovu Curve." The Inzovu Curve is, if you're a service designer, you're thinking about an experience map or a service blueprint of sorts. Let's abstract it far enough if it's the basis of it. But it looks at the distinction between all those interactions over the course of a journey... this distinction between empathy and compassion. And picks up, from some of the research at that time, we were learning about, from a neuroscientist named Tania Singer and her studies about empathy and compassion, and that too much empathy can actually lead to — potentially — a couple of different outcomes: 1) a burnout or 2) a shutdown. That was actually a really interesting moment for us as we were doing this work and doing our synthesis from all the research and study of the experience, because it was like a light bulb effect went on. I was like, "Whoa, wait a second!" Because we were able to use that to describe what the visitor experience was like. And in many cases, instances of where in amongst that experience, were likely so heavy handed in terms of developing empathy, that people were burning out and shutting down. Because people would exit the experience, have no means to process it, have no means to unpack it, not know what to do with it, sit on the bench in the hot sun, and just literally melt. Right? Literally, and physically melt, or just not know how to process. And so that's because there weren't enough moments to pause and collect yourself and reflect, or somebody there to help guide you through that process, or even show you ways that you yourself can act. Helping them to re-think and recalibrate that experience and what other things might be helpful to include in the experience because of some of these gaps, was where the work was at that point in time for us. They made, since that time, significant, different types of changes, both physically, architecturally, structurally... even now, in the last couple of years with some of the work that we've done, have launched some new programs and new ways of reaching people that I think is actually pretty interesting to the conversations we've been having about how to structure information environments and provide greater accessibility to some of this kind of insight and understanding. Jorge: This idea of giving people space to pause and collect themselves... and space might also be time, right? Am I understanding correctly that the Memorial and Museum project came 20 years after the genocide? Jason: Our project came 20 years after. The museum itself was created in 2004. Jorge: So, about a decade after. Jason: So, about 10 years after the genocide against the Tutsi. And that's when Aegis got involved. Two really wonderful human beings were so moved with their involvement there in Rwanda, actually from the UK. Two brothers, the Smith brothers, who do a lot of different things inside the space of helping to prevent crimes against humanity and telling their stories, started Aegis Trust and partnered with the Rwandan government to develop the museum and the memorial as well. And they have turned that into — over those years — a place that tries to balance both history, reflection, unity, reconciliation, celebration of arts and humanity. Because there's a number of different kinds of spaces there on the grounds. It's a multi-dimensional, multi-faceted thing. When I say, "experience," that's hard for a non-profit organization that's dependent upon international funds and aid and those sorts of things to do. To continue to evolve, in that nature. Many of us as designers are used to working with heavily funded corporate organizations. There was some startup that's got some venture capital and you're focused on cranking out iterations of digital products and services with as much velocity as you can, right? That's... this is slow change. And it's not just a digital thing. It's like, "okay, this connects to this and this person who tells this story." I'll give an example. One of the things that we found was challenging was there really wasn't a great starting place at that point in time. When we first visited, you would get out of your car, you would go down into a plaza, and was like, where do I start? You start in museum building... there was a little lobby there, but that really wasn't as great of an opportunity to orient you about what you're about to see. Over time we've worked with them now to develop some design principles about the Memorial and the Museum itself, the overall experience. And that's led to them building a new... I'll call it a visitor center. And I mean that from the broadest sense. It's just the place to start. It's a place where you're welcomed, where they now have before you go through the Museum and the grounds and Memorial — as a visitor, not as a family member or necessarily a Rwandan, who's just coming to pay respects, maybe more so if you're coming from like a school group, a school tour, or just the general visitor — that you're oriented by sitting and watching and being welcomed to the experience by some genocide survivors. That's important because first and foremost, the Kigali Genocide Memorial is home for more than a quarter million people who lost their lives and all their loved ones that come and pay respect. If you didn't have something like that to set the tone, it can come off much more as a... like, "we go to the museum!" Let's go to the cultural arts center or the whatever. Which is a different vibe. Over time, it's got to continually shift and change to set those expectations that you were an invited guest into this world and start to prepare you, much like when you organize information. There's a big reveal to get into the depths of information. In order to do that, you've got to start by setting kind of the framework a bit. So, that was a big change that they made. And also including some other parts of the experience to showcase and talk about the work that had been done and continues to be done out in the field around the Peace and Values education, which has now become a really big piece because through our work, what we believe is that Rwanda has really tapped into kind of the secret code, if you will, around unity and reconciliation. They are experts in it, from my point of view. Learning from the Rwandan experience Jorge: I know you're not from Rwanda, but I'm very curious, given that the United States, where we're both living, is living through a period of great polarization, where half the population has a set of values and perspectives, and the other half of the population has a different set of values and perspectives. And I'm wondering if, as someone who knows both cultures and who has been exposed to these principles of peace and reconciliation, if there's anything that we can take from that experience that would help start healing the rifts between us, maybe? Jason: Yeah. We talk about a word... I think it's so overplayed and over pronounced so much time, the word 'empathy.' That's an important part of what you can take away from this story. What was part of the Rwandans cultural value system well before the genocide against the Tutsi and is now swung fully back — and they're working hard to ensure that that's the case — is a really strong sense of cultural values. What they've really tapped into — and I think this is where it gets into design a bit — is that they've tapped into ways to embody these cultural values inside of the experiences people have within education. And there are lots of different ways that they have work to focus on unity and reconciliation inside of the country, amongst its people. I'm speaking on just one element, right? There's lots! But in this particular one, the Peace and Values education that Aegis Trust has been working on with the community and with the government, is now part of the national education system. It wasn't before, because there was still not finalization of agreement around the history and the facts that occurred and did not occur. As you can imagine, recounting and putting down on paper and getting agreement on what happened over the course of a mass atrocity event is not a small feat and took years and years to get to that point. So much so that they weren't even teaching that inside of the school system. These Peace and Values education programs were like mobile workshops that would go out in different villages and teachers would take their kids to these seminars, these workshops, or they would take them to the Genocide Memorial for these workshops for the day where they would learn about these cultural values. And now since that time, since the success and the positive impact that these things have had, now they're teaching them inside of the classroom. It's a cross-disciplinary way of embodying things like critical thinking in science class, empathy in science class. Rather than having a class on empathy, it's woven through the education that you receive as a youth. I think that's a huge piece to this. Think about the disparity around education in the United States for just a small moment. I can't even begin to describe that, but it is... you can find wide variances, not necessarily by the subject matter, like third grade math, but by how things are infused throughout that, right? Throughout the country, I would bet. And so, that's a challenge. There isn't a... I'd say in the United States, as strong of a connected effort around some of these things. Around empathy and critical thinking and personal responsibility, as much as maybe there should be in our education system. But they're focusing heavily on that for the next generation. And they're putting tools in the hands of teachers and school leaders and community leaders and religious leaders and moms and dads. In fact, some of the work that we've done in the last couple of years was to help craft a bit of a brand around that and a bit of a story and a digital platform to support that. Because it was like locked up in CD rom drives, and flash drives. And just up until several years ago, not everybody in the country had access to electricity or running water. I mean, it's still an ongoing thing. And think about access to broadband, to the internet, to dial up? I mean, how do you get- these materials? So, they're making a lot of investments in the country and in local communities in those sorts of things, but distributing the Peace and Values education was one of them. We helped them craft this brand called "Ubumuntu." And it's translated in Kinyarwanda to mean "greatness of heart." And that is a symbol that embodies these Peace and Values, and they're using it to help further a connection. It's a storytelling device, in many different ways, not just for delivering Peace and Values education in this digital platform, but also connecting people when they visit the Memorial Museum near and far, both in person and virtually. Making values tangible Jorge: It sounds to me like the Memorial and museum serves this role of making the shared values tangible. Like giving people a thing to point to much like the Statue of Liberty is an icon of something. right. But, to your point, it sounds like coming up with an icon to help align our values is only something that can happen when enough time has passed, where the wounds are not still raw, right? Jason: Yeah. I mean, I think so. I've had the opportunity and privilege to sit and talk with genocide survivors. To be in reconciliation villages, where you have survivor and perpetrators sitting next to each other and listen and watch and interview them and talk with them. And I think the biggest thing that I take away is this is not... it's not done, over. It's not like, "Hey, it's, you know... X number of years passed, and we came up with a symbol that, you know, and we're doing all these things. Like it's an ongoing, like thing, like... you know, there are people who are coming out of prison and rejoining community and being integrated back into society and they have to you know, go through a process that's mandated by the government based upon their crime, and work on reconciliation. And it's a pretty serious deal, as it should be. Those are other elements, as I mentioned, like the Peace and Values education is a thing. But the unity and reconciliation stuff is yet another thing. And so, I've had an opportunity to sit in on some of those conversations and I will say, it's not... I think people think about these things and they think, "oh, that generation you know forgives the other person." And I think the biggest thing to me is it's... while there may be cases of that — people forgiving — so many times people have said, you know, "use that word loosely." And what they really mean is that I'm forgiving you for the next generation and I'm putting others ahead of myself and knowing that the only way to improve our chances of unity as a country, as a people, is to focus on the next generation. And that I'll... I may never forgive you. I don't forgive you. You're doing your time and we're constantly working on it. Forgiveness is an act. It's not a finality, right? You know, that people put others before themselves. They have used the word and they — I don't want to stereotype — I have heard in the interviews that I've sat in on has been more about personal sacrifice for survivors, in many cases, and the desire to ensure that that never happens again to the next generation. There are so many people who are involved working at so many different levels inside that country, inside that people, to help ensure that it doesn't happen ever again. It's unbelievable how progressive the country is in terms of its thinking and being. Are things perfect in it? No. Are things perfect in the United States? No. But to see that from an outsider's perspective and be connected to people that are actively working in the throes of it all is really remarkable. I mean, the amount of female leadership in the Rwandan ministry and cabinet, is I think it's 60% or more or something. I mean, that's wow! Right? As it should be, right? A well-balanced progressive society to get it out of where it was once. Closing Jorge: It sounds to me like it would benefit us to learn from the Rwandan experience, to find a way to develop our own greatness of heart. And it sounds like it requires perspective, which comes over time and alignment in values, which come over time. And it sounds like there are small steps that we as designers can take to help move things in that direction. I want to thank you for coming on the show and telling us about these things. I am sure that folks are going to want to learn more about you and your work. Where can they go? Jason: Sure. The best way is probably to just connect with me on LinkedIn. You can visit me on LinkedIn. Sometimes on... I'm on and off again on social media, like Twitter and Facebook, but LinkedIn is generally the best place. Otherwise, you can visit in inzovu.co, or uxforgood.org. And I look forward to connecting with you there. Jorge: And I will include links to all of those in the show notes. Thank you so much, Jason, for being with us today Jason: Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Welcome to the Recruitment hackers podcast show about innovations, technology and leaders in the recruitment industry. Brought to you by Talkpush,  the leading recruitment automation platform. Max: Okay. Hello everybody. And welcome to the recruiter hackers podcast by Max Armbruster. And today I'm pleased to welcome on the show the global talent acquisition capability leader at Accenture, Jason Roberts. Welcome Jason. Jason: Thank you. And thank you for saying all of the words in that title. I know it's a lot. Max: Can we mix them around? We can move them.Jason: You got it exactly right and t's a bunch though.  We were just talking and it's a whole lot of words. I'm not sure that it says anything. So, What that means is that I have a pretty fun gig and that I'm responsible for processes and technologies and how we do recruiting for Accenture's customers. And we will do that for large organizations where we hire several hundred thousand people per year.So we get to try out lots of technologies. We have a pretty nice clean standard process that we work from. And I get to, to be a part of that and work with smart people every day. It's good.Max: Yeah. Fantastic. You said a few hundred thousand people every year. And I guess that number is getting bigger than ever now where the industry is kind of figuring out how we're going to get these 30 plus million people back to work in North America and I don't know, it must be hundreds of millions worldwide. So the pressure is on to, to deliver you know, I'm gonna say a good, maybe a decent experience for most of them. Jason: Well, what's interesting is what I worry about with, with COVID is that candidate experience will stop being a priority because candidate experience is a big deal when you've got 3% unemployment and it's necessary in order to, to achieve the hires that you need to achieve. But when there's 25% unemployment or 20% unemployment, you don't need candidate experience, people just need jobs. So it's, it's one of those things where if I'm worried that we might lose ground in the candidate experience side of things. I think we all want to be in a position where we treat people well, and we had started seeing real improvements in that space. And it was because companies were making investments in the right things in order to make it happen.  I'm hoping we get to continue that, but there's a, I think there's a real risk that we'll take a step backwards in that space. Max: Yeah. I've definitely noticed that people are not getting back to candidates as fast as they should be and positions are being kept open even though they're not real. And so it's kinda like candidates sending beautiful offer letters and resumes and hearing nothing back, hearing crickets.On the plus side, the candidate experience is improved by the fact that companies are not defaulting to asking people to come physically in person. And when you consider how time consuming that can be and demanding, that can be, well.. We were meeting in person. It was a lot of work for me. I mean, I had to take a plane to come and meet you. Jason: Well, no, you didn't have to. I was always great with being on video if you want to do that.  I found that suppliers really wanted to meet in person. And I've worked remotely for over a decade, probably 13 years now, something like that, that I've worked remotely. And I was completely good being on phone and people would just would want and meet, man. Okay, well, I'll meet with you. You know I actually had an office for the sole purpose of meeting with suppliers when they came into town. That's the only time I went to the office when I met with somebody that came in town to meet me.Max: I remember that office. It was, it was a, We Work Jason: It was a We Work, We Work, right. That's why I only went there every once in a while. I just, I would reserve a conference room. And I think you, you came back to the actual inner sanctum. You saw the actual office. Yeah. Max: Yeah. Well I know you have a very cool job with Accenture today and you had a very cool job with Randstad before.  Can you tell for our listeners, give us a quick overview of, where you come from and how you got into this space? Jason: Oh, gosh. Yeah. So I started recruiting, my age will show for sure. 1997. Was my first,  my first piece of recruiting work.I was, I had a person, a friend that I knew... The internet was still pretty new. Right. So,  like I got email for the first time in 1994, I think.  So it was, it was still relatively new and a friend of mine said, Hey, I'm a recruiter. And I, hear you can find things on this internet thing. Can you help me with that? I said, well, yeah, I can help you search the internet. So I became an early sourcer and it was with a staffing firm and,  that sort of, I progressed over a period of time so that, so that ultimately, I, I worked for the staffing firm full time then,  did some consulting then I spent about seven years with Cisco systems and started out as a recruiter. I recruited Sales and sales engineers for them. Ultimately we built our own applicant tracking system back then there were no web based ATS everything was client server. So we thought, okay, well we're the backbone of the internet we should probably have something that's a web based deal. So we built our own and it was my job to be sort of the functional expert on that. And I worked in HR IT for a little while, built my own ATS with Cisco. And that was fun. Max: 2003 ish around that. Jason: Yeah. That's about right before Taleo showed up.Max: Yeah, it must have been frustrating to see the startup Taleo pick up all this business thinking... Jason: Yeah you know what, we built my module and of course dot com bubble burst along the way. And things slowed down a little bit in recruiting. And we built the module that was basically how we take job orders and approve things and we hadn't built a lot of the candidates stuff yet. And Taleo came out and with a few other things there and and we were like, Oh, these things are way better. Let's not build the rest. Let's just find a way to connect to these other deals. And that's what we did. We never finished, we just did the sort of requisition piece. It was called cafe rec, was the tweaks that..Max: Back then recruiting happened mostly in Starbucks. Jason: Well, apparently  that's how it worked. It was a good thing. And, I learned a lot. Along the way, I became a certified project manager and it was great and then I had a boss that told me, you know, I'd become the operations leader for Cisco. And my boss said, you can either have my job, which I don't plan on leaving anytime soon. Or go to a place that does recruiting for a living. And I said, Oh, that's not a bad idea. And I'd outsourced our recruiting along the way. And I was responsible for the relationship between outsource company and Cisco and I played that sort of client side role. So the company that went through the RFP process, they actually told me no, they said, yeah, I don't think we can help you much. What you're trying to do is, is really not exactly the right thing.And there were a hundred percent, right. Like it was the, the worst conceived RFP and a terribly conceived sort of a model that we had designed and the only company that came back and said, this is a bad idea, we're going to bow out. We wish you luck and we'll help you with something else the next time. It was Accenture.I thought, man, that took a lot of integrity to do that. So, when I went to look for a job, they were the first people that I called. And, they made a job for me. So I went to work for Accenture, loved that, did that for six years in various roles. And then went to Randstand Source Right. And I loved Randstand Source Right. That was a good time. I, I went over to lead operations for them. And I did that for a number of years, uh, moved on to the, Senior Vice President of Strategy. Uh, it was Strategy and Standardization because a big part of the strategy was to standardize. Um, so that was that. And then, um, ultimately I ended my run there as Head of Technology and Analytics, uh, around the globe and, uh, Accenture is a funny place, man. It, uh, it calls you back at some point. There's lots of us that are boomerang. So we've come back. That's the role I'm in now I really, um, I really like. I remember the guy who had the role when I was here before and, uh, I loved what he was doing and we where he got to spend his time.So I, when that was open, I said, all right, let's do it. I came back back to Accenture. Max: Now, if you could go, you know, you go back 15 years. Um,  um, would you do what I'm doing and start, uh, an ATS company. I started one in 2008, 2009. I was, I think, a few years too late, uh, on my first run. Jason: You know what? I do look back and think, um, I wish I had been a founder.  I have a lot of respect for the founders that I know. And I look back, I think that quite a bit, um, I was, I had a family very, very young, uh, so, uh, we had our first child. I was in that spot. So the gamble wasn't my gamble. It was the whole family's gamble. So I, I never did it. And if I knew, then what I know now I might have, like, I understand the venture capital space. I understand how that all works. And I did, I was just so clueless back then. I had no idea. Um, but, uh, who knows? I have an idea. Maybe one of these days, I'll get to try it out. I do have and idea.Max: Oh, don't do it. Don't do it, Jason. It's the worst, worst thing that can happen to you. No money. Uh, no, uh, I don't recommend it. Jason: Ok, that's good to know! My other founder friends are like do it, do it today! I'm gonna wait until we're not in a, you know, a crisis.Max: Apparently recessions of the best time to start a business. Jason: Well, you know what a bunch of people that did that, did well doing that.  Max: Yeah. Um, it, it sounds like, uh, throughout your career, while you were not an entrepreneur, you were able to tinker and build things and build toys. Um, and I picked up on the job title you shared with us. You said it was a Standardization in it. That doesn't sound too sexy, but there were also, um, some more creative exercises that you were involved in. Um, you were telling me before we started the video that you, learned about the limits of automation and where the humans were needed in an experiment that you ran a year or two years ago. Um, could, um, could you elaborate on that? Jason: Yeah. Well, we're actually experimenting with that right now, even. Um, so the technology exists to fully automate the recruiting process, especially at the, in the lower level jobs. So think retail, uh, warehouse workers, things where you're not making big decisions on the skills and capabilities, but it's more processing someone through with a very low threshold of qualification. So we call those high volume, low skill. And so for those roles, it's possible to fully automate. There's not a lot of discernment involved that needs to be made, a human doesn't need to make that decision on “Do we hire this person or not?” Everyone is qualified if they hit some basic knockout questions, like, can you lift 50 pounds? Literally, “can you have work boots on your first day?” Um, those are the sorts of things you have to, you have to ask them.  So when that happens, uh, I remember I went to one, one interview center for massive distribution, uh, site, uh, one of the biggest in the world, I think. And, um, There's a building for interviews.And I sat down with a lady who had been interviewing in that building, interviewing candidates every day. Um, for, uh, I think it was six years. She had interviewed candidates every single day. And I said, well, how often do you say no to a candidate? And this lady said, “Oh, I've never said no.”She had never said no. She had interviewed for six years and never said no. So when that's the case, that you don't need the interview anymore, right. That discern was done necessary. So we tried this with a fully automated process. And what we learned is these sorts of roles. You always, you have dropout rates at certain points. You know, you're going to have a certain percent that fail the drug screen, way more than you would think if you do white collar work. You hear the failure rate, it would surprise you if that's all you've ever done. Um, But there's a failure rate of drug screen, you know, you're going to have, and then there's a certain number of people that just won't ever show up for the job.And, um, what we learned when we fully automated is we could get people all the way through the process up until the day they're supposed to start and they just didn't show up. They didn't think it was real. Some of them would get nervous when filling out the background, check paperwork, thinking it might be a scam because they're asked for, you know, personal information, social security, and so forth, even though it was from a reputable company, they're worried that it's a scam. So in order to ground the position, we are experimenting with the right place to insert a human contact. So where do you insert a phone call to ground this, to be that it's a real position, a real job for someone? Not because you need to say yes or no, but because they need human contact to feel good about the job.Max: Well, that's what the lady was doing for six years, right? It was, uh, she wasn't saying no, but she was saying here's, here's a human contact. Jason: That's it exactly right. That's what she was doing all the time. Max: Uh, yeah, I I'd like to insert more video in the process where you know, that human contact could be, Hey, check it out You know, here's the, the warehouse where you'll be working. You know, do a little phon, recording, and say, we can't wait to see you on Monday. And that, little video can be, it can feel personal, but it could be actually general, you know, you could send it to everybody. Jason: Yeah. I think you're right. I think you're exactly right. And we're seeing more of that. In fact, we're seeing, um, seeing a shift to video interviews for certain, um, a lot of companies are just using zoom or Skype or not Skype, but Microsoft teams, the Skype, Skype got replaced, uh, Google meets for some, but they're, they're using sort of their conferencing platforms to do that instead of, uh, instead of the the formal sort of modern, higher and higher and things.  But it's a little bit broken, right? When they do that, because they don't have the formal scoring, they don't have, they don't have the staff, the they're not able to what's happening like the candidate, your platform. Um, they it's, it's not as strong of a solution.Um, so I was talking at one point with, uh, With one of the founders of another one of these companies. And they said, they said we're running into companies that have sort of the scrappy solution. And  they're using zoom. And then the ones that are, that were prepared for something like this, um, the adoption rate just skyrocketed.So people, cause video, I always had trouble getting people to use it and getting people to actually lean into it because you still have to review the videos. But once we, um, once we hit this pandemic, everybody seems way more comfortable or, you know, it's become a necessity in their world at least.And they're accustomed to it. Max: Yeah. Yeah. We've, we've done a lot of zoom and team integrations and then, um, have the live video call asynchronous video. Um, I still, I'm still a luxury for, a lot of positions they're more interested in getting people through binary, you know, outcomes or multiple choice questions and getting them to move to a human interview through a phone call. Um, and also still a lot of markets where asking people to log in for a zoom call would be too, um,  demanding on the bandwidth. So they do phone calls instead. And, uh, you know. Jason: Well you're, in markets that where that's a significant challenge. Right? But you guys have WhatsApp integration, correct? Max: Yes. Yes. WhatsApp integration allows for collecting video, but asynchronously, you wouldn't be able to do a live video call connected through the business API. You can do it person to person, in the consumer market, but it's not yet supported for businesses. Unfortunately. Uh, same way that, uh, Facebook picture, you know, otherwise. Yeah. I mean, all those companies, whether you're, you're an ATS and CRM, um, uh, social media or a communication platform, you all have video now and everybody has it and everybody can switch it on and it's relatively cost free. So I don't understand how the Highervues of the world are going to stay in business if their story is we're good on video. So is everybody else.Jason: Yeah, that's true. No, it's true. Max: Yeah. Um, Very commoditized. Jason:I thought they needed to do something different. Um, but yeah, we're we are seeing more video. Um, SMS is big for us in the US um, of course, different mediums elsewhere as well. So, uh, we're seeing a lot of that shift as well.Max: The, um, uh, continuing on what we were talking about, the lady, um, that says yes. Um,  um, do you think her job will still be around in, uh, in 10 years time? Or do you think that, uh, eventually, you know, um, we can go to a full automated process with no human contact. Jason: Um, I think probably not. I think probably her role probably doesn't exist the way it is. What I think we'll end up with is, you know, instead of a 40 minute actually interview candidates were scheduled for an hour, an hour time slot to come in and do your interview. I think we're going to have 10 minutes, um, basically, uh, uh, Welcome calls. They're their introductions. We're welcoming them to the company. “Oh yeah we're ready to make you this offer. It's already been sent to you. Welcome to the welcome home. And here's your, here's all the stuff you need to know. Here's where you show up what you do” but it's a 10 minute make somebody feel good call, um, and not an interview. Max: Yeah, that's a big productivity gain potentially there.Um, and I've seen, uh, for, uh, some people doing group interviews as well. Because then you have that human factor, uh, you know, you were saying, is it real? Well I mean, there's 10 other people logging into the call and I can see their faces and it's probably real. Jason: Yeah, I saw I was, um, there's, uh,  uh, one of the big online retailers, uh, they were doing this thing where they would do a drug swab. This was years ago. This is before I came back to Accenture. Um, they were doing a drug swab. Yeah, as a part of their interview process. So they would have these massive hiring events. They still do it right now, I think. And, um, basically you go, you sit down, you watch a video about working at this, at this place.If you're good with it, um, they have like a long Q-tip. You swab your cheek, it's a drug test. You put it back in the package, you seal it up. You sign an offer letter and you're done, like, that's it. That is the whole, that is the whole process you've been processed and the way that they were paying their suppliers was based on the number of return offer letters and, uh, drug screens that they got.Max: Wow. Well, I mean, I just had to do my first swab, uh, coming into Hong Kong  to check, they were checking for my coronavirus. Uh, yeah. Um, but that uh,  sounds brutal. And I guess these drug tests have had to, I mean, those are private enterprises can ask whatever they want. Right. it's they can decide what drug tests they ask. There's no, restrictions on state law or anything like that. Jason: No, it's strange. You'll have more stringent drug screening requirements for Businesses than the States in which people live. Yeah. So there might be a state where marijuana is legalized, for example, but it's not legal for the drug screen.Well, tell that to the, you know, 18 year old warehouse worker that they're interviewing for those warehouse job, you know, they're really just picking up boxes. They've been moving them from point A to point B. And I'm not sure that whether or not they smoked it makes much difference in that, but that's there oftentimes there's rules that say, yeah, you can't hire themMax: After a stressful day of carrying boxes.Jason: It may be, I don't know, but it's, there are these more stringent things, but if it's legal in your state is if it's legal where you are, I guess nine, 18 year old, usually usual is 21. So 21 year old warehouse worker, I guess she could have a problem. You could, you, it's not as big of a deal in my mind, but the 18 year old, shame on them, they should wait till 21 based on that wall.Max: It should be the other way around. Absolutely. We should have a world where it's illegal in the state, but it's legal as soon as you come inside the company. You know,  Basically an office where we only accept people here who smoke cigarettes all day long. Jason: So you joke, but, um, one of the big tobacco companies I did work with years and years and years ago, um, And the first time I walked in there, I saw the ashtrays on the desks, the whole thing.So, yeah, I don't know if they still do that, but this was way back when. But yeah, it's the only company I ever walked into with ashtrays on the desk, because that had sort of gone by the time I made it into this line of work. Max: Yeah. Well uh, I've experienced that as well.  I've had business meetings with cigarettes, um, in Asia. So  it does feel, uh, like you're, traveling in time when that happens. Jason: Well, I've had business meetings with cigars.  That's a different story. Max: Yes. Yes. I don't get invited to those then. Okay. Um, before we wrap it up, Jason: Max I'm pretty sure that i invited you to one at some point along the way.Max: With cigars? Jason: Yeah. I'm pretty sure along the way. Maybe when we were in San Francisco, but I don't know. Max: Oh, I missed it. Well, okay. Talking about the, uh, the current events and where you see the market going a few months ago when, uh, the world uh, was collapsing. You, told me that the RPO industry had rebounded strongly in 2008 and 2009 and had its best run right afterwards and gave me some hope for your industry, our industry. Uh, coming out of the coronavirus pandemic, um, um, has your, um, yeah.  Are you on track with your predictions or, um, or you, uh, surprised with, uh, the pace of the slowness of the recovery, I guess, um, how do you anticipate the next few months will pan out for people in staffing and in the RPO world in particular?Jason: Um, so yeah, uh, I don't know what the starting point of the sort of rebound is. Right? So coming out of the 2008 slowdown, um, 2009, when companies started bringing you back. Uh, employees, um, the recruiters came back first, right. And, uh, when the recruiters came back, the ramp began very quickly. And a lot of times they said, okay, well, let's bring people back, but via outsourcing. That's why outsourcing grew so much at that time. What's difficult about this one is we're not yet at the place where I think we're ready for the rebound. I think  um, we're still sort of in the low point. Uh, and we're, nobody's really sure when, we sort of swing out of this thing, I'm confident that we will, right?I'm confident that yeah. Eventually everybody gets to take off their mask and go back to their jobs. And there are some hurdles that have to be reached along the way for that to happen. So I'm confident that the world will go back to what we were accustomed to one day. Um, but it's not something that happens, you know, in three months or four months, it's something that happens, uh, over a long period of time.Max: There's a cycle to recruitment. And normally, you know, end of the summer, everybody gets ready for the big shopping push towards the end of the year. Jason: October. Yeah. Max: Yeah. So now is when people need to, normally when they start ramping up and start you know, setting up the machine. You're saying well, maybe it's taken a little longer this time.Jason: Well, what's funny is the online machine is ramping like you wouldn't believe. So the people who do your online shopping through, and then who fulfill those orders on the back end. Yeah. That that's going strong. It hasn't slowed down. In fact, um, It's where we're seeing the most competition for workers, uh, warehouse workers are right now.Like it's like a software developers and Silicon Valley in the early two thousands. Max: No, I don't know if I want to go into a, you know, carrying boxes or data science. Jason: Seriously. What I think is going to happen is those wages are going to start increasing really significantly. Much to the chagrin of my customer base, but they, I think that, um, you know, we're, we're being asked in some cases to monitor, um, uh, to monitor salaries or offers like what the, the offer that people are making to candidates on a daily basis. Because Amazon, when you drive past has billboards that say I'm offering X number of dollars per hour and they change. And sometimes they'll change uh, there'll be a different number when you go into the office from versus when you come back and yeah. Yeah. If that's how fast this, this thing is moving and it's not going down, it's all going up. Uh, and the reason that we think that is that, um, These jobs used to be the jobs that were, you know, the next level, they were the good paying jobs. If you didn't have an education necessarily, um, but uh, you wanted something that could actually pay your bills. Um, it's sort of the, the first job that was able to do that most of the time, um, you know, just above you would see the grocery stores and things paid just above minimum wage. And these jobs were always several dollars per hour or more.What's happened is Target, Amazon, even Walmart now have pushed that based salary up to, you know, if anyone wages somewhere in the eight or $9 range, they've pushed to 13 or 14, a minimum wage, the California minimum wage, I think through the end of this year, end of next year. Uh, it will be $14, right? Max: So they as high as high as, as a logistics or, yeah.Jason: Right. So it's, it's now you can, you can either, you can either work in a really, uh, challenging environment in a warehouse where you're lifting things a bunch and you're, um, it may, it's probably climate controlled. They've all added climate control, but there's these big Bay doors. So where the trucks have to pull in. So, uh, it's you can't get that completely cool or, uh, completely warm in the winter time. Um, so you've always got to deal with the weather to some degree when that, when that happens, you can't have total climate control. So you've got those jobs that are uncomfortable and require more physical activity versus, you know, the, the grocery store chain, the, uh, big box retailer, those, those other ones paying the same amount of money. So all those people that have to work with your packages from the Amazon people who have to load them to the, uh, delivery drivers, to the, uh, uh, you know, the UPS guy, whoever, um, all of those, workers, um, they're in great demand. Cause there's more, we need more of them, but their salaries are deeply compressed because of what's happened with all of the retail salaries. Yeah. Max: Yeah. Well I'm, um, you know, from an economic standpoint, I think increasing minimal wages, does uh, accelerate the pace of automation and ultimately, um, force companies to automate more. Uh, so that's probably the response as well as, you know, um, in the short term an increase in, uh, and paper hour, but we know that, um, it's going to drive more automation and will eventually, potentially cost a few jobs. Uh, but if those are the hard jobs, um, that may not be such a bad outcome, it's just that, as you were saying if you have no education, um, and you need to pay the bill, those jobs are very precious. So I don't know. Um, I'm not, uh, a policy guy, but, uh, um, it sounds like you're in the right market. Even though you're fighting some, uh, difficult trends. Jason: It's fascinating, right. If it were easy, the clients wouldn't call us to help. Right? They'd be able to do this themselves. Max: So many times after eight hours in front of my webcam I'm like, Oh man, I wish I was outside doing physical work and I always thought that that would be like a good employee branding employer value proposition. Come in to work in our warehouse and check out, our guns, you know?Jason: You know what you need to do? You need to go, and I don't know about tha EVP, but the next time you feel that way, go dig a ditch and see how you feel afterwards. Because one time I at one  was hiring people who would bury the lines for the phone company and they literally were ditch diggers and I could not think of a worst gig. And they, uh, so every time I, when I look at this, I think. I could be doing that job. That would be terrible. Yeah, it's exhausting by the way. Max: I, uh, when I was, uh, 16 years old, I had a chance to go work in, um, an, a modeling agency to just to do intern work. But then my mother insisted, I go instead, go work in our plastic factory so that I would understand the cost of physical labor. And so  I did end up going to school afterwards and pursuing an education. Jason: Wow, How old were you when you could go to the modeling agency? Max: 16. Yeah, peak of my purity. Jason: At that age. I think, I think your mom might not have done the right thing. Max: Um, I'm pretty sure she will not be listening to our conversation, but, uh, if you are, I'm still so grateful for, uh, for your choice, mom, and I'm very grateful for your time, Jason. Today and in previous conversations, helping, helping me understand the macro trends and the limits of automation. Uh, thank you very much for joining us today, uh, on this podcast and looking forward to our next chat. Jason: Happy to do it. Thanks. Max: A treat talking to Jason Roberts from Accenture and, and learning about the new dynamics of the marketplace currently shaping, uh, North America with the pickers and the people working in logistics in higher demand than the engineers of the Silicon Valley.Who would have guessed? And if, uh, if you liked this interview, please subscribe for more on recruitment hackers, podcast, and share with your friends. Hope to see you here again soon.

Entrepreneurs dream about starting their own business, but they can’t afford it. How can they reach their financial goals and objectives to fund and grow their business? Most of them borrow money from their friends, parents, and/or credit cards.  Today, I am talking to Bruce Mack of Platinum Trust Group. Bruce is an avid real estate investor and licensed financial advisor. He shares seven options to fund your business and take it to the next level. You’ll Learn... [03:54] Option 1: Revolving Lines of Credit Program is easy to qualify for with 700+ FICO score and more than one open lines of credit; no business plan, collateral needed.  [08:55] Option 2: Installment-based Lending Platform features 25 lenders offering $1,000 to $50,000 with lower FICO score, but provable income. [12:25] Option 3: Business Directed Retirement Account (BDRA) is rollable IRA or 401(k) where funds from previous employers are accessible for specific transactions.  [18:28] Option 4: Transactional Funding for A2B, B2C transactions, such as funds for wholesale flips. [20:07] Option 5: Platinum Trust Group/Division offers bulletproof asset protection and ability to save passive income money to repurpose.  [24:48] Option 6: Private and Hard Money Solutions with low annual percentage rates (APRs) and 1-2 points to cash out rental property income to deploy on new projects. [26:42] Option 7: Plug-and-Play Scenario is relationship-oriented opportunity to connect and network with partners and sponsors.  [29:17] Where to start? Typically, it takes about $75,000 to get your business started. [32:56] Funding Mindset: If you don’t want to go into debt to do anything, it may hold you back from growing your business and generating revenue.  [35:35] Constant Lawsuits: Property managers/management companies that aren’t real estate investors are in high-risk business. Tweetables Donuts to Dollars: Entrepreneurs start businesses thanks to friends, family, and credit cards. Plug-and-Play Option: You never know, who you know. Get your project going. You’re in the wrong business, if you don’t want to go into debt to grow your business and generate revenue. Protect your assets! Property managers/management companies that aren’t real estate investors face constant lawsuits. Resources Platinum Trust Group Platinum Financing Group FICO Fundbox IRA 401(k) Real Estate Investor Association (REIA) DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome to DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others impact lives and you are interested in growing your business and life and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow Hacker. DoorGrow Hackers love the opportunity, daily variety, unique challenges and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and the residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, who I'm hanging out with, is Bruce Mack of Platinum Trust Group. Bruce, welcome to the show. Bruce: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it and you definitely are unbelievable at your opening. Jason: Thank you. It's built around all the challenges that we've heard in the industry and what our client-centric mission is as a company. I wanted to fold all that into our intro and I appreciate you giving us some positive feedback on it. Bruce, I'm really interested in getting into this. Today's topic is seven options to fund your business. This is a common challenge of people not being able to afford to do work with us, being able to afford to do the things they need to do to grow their business. This is a common challenge. There's a lot of entrepreneurs that are just trying to operate just paycheck to paycheck. In order to get ahead and grow the business, they need to find some funding, or get some money, or figure out how to make it work, or save something in order to make that work. Before we get into that, could you give everybody a bit of a background? Let's qualify you, help them understand how you got into what you're doing? Tell us, who is Bruce? Bruce: Well, in a couple of sentences or at least a short paragraph, I am an avid real estate investor, have been in a three-year period of time. I was able to buy rehab and flipped out over 160 properties. I've been involved with over $92 million worth of real estate transactions, SFR’s, as well as commercial. I'm a licensed financial advisor, prior owner and operator of a credit repair company that was also a licensed and bonded. I've been around the block. I love working with real estate investors. I speak to them all over the world, as well as nationally and have been at countless events helping folks just like the folks that are on this podcast, to be able to reach their financial goals and objectives, through getting them the rudimentary financing that they need so they can take their business to the next level. Jason: Okay, great. Let's get into the seven options. I guess we're starting with number one. Bruce: Okay, let's start with number one. One of our premiere programs that we use on a daily basis is what I call our revolving lines of credit program. Now, the nice thing is with this particular program, is that there are a lot of no's, but these are no’s that you want to hear, not no’s that you don't want to hear. Bruce: One of the no’s is that you don't have to have a business plan. Another no is that you don't have to have collateral pledged to be able to qualify for this, so if you don't have any collateral, i.e. properties, what have you, or other hard assets, there are no collateral pledges. Another no is that you don't have to have an income verification because it's a stated program. Without a business plan, without having a stated income, without having to go through a bunch of hoops, this makes it an easy qualify program. The key qualifiers are having a FICO score, ideally north of 700 or 700 when we put you through the program, and having more than one (ideally) open lines of credit with a credit card that would be at least $6000, $7000, $7500 worth of credit limit, and at the time that we put you through, you're ideally at 30% or lower on your utilization. Let's just say you have a $10,000 credit card. Let's say you have a $7000 balance currently, that would be at %70 utilization. What I'm saying is that we’d like to see that that $10,000 credit card has no more than %30 utilization or that you're not currently carrying more than a $30,000 balance. Now, if you are, because there's too much month, not enough money and therefore you have higher balances, we do have a solution. We do have another funding division that will likely take a look at those balances and work with you to actually pay them down for you, so that therefore your scores will skyrocket to where we need them to be, your utilization ratios will plummet to where we need them to be, so that we get the maximum results. The maximum results is our average client on a first round funding gets $75,000 worth of revolving lines of credit as much as $150,000 on a first round fund. When done properly and if we have a client that comes to us with longevity of accounts, no derogatory, so on and so forth, of course, that's going to get us all a better net result for the client on the back-end. Again these lines of credit are all at 0% APR for up to 21 months. Jason: Okay, but the cruz behind this is that they've got to have good credit in place in order to do this one. Bruce: Well, there's a couple of other if’s, and’s, and but’s, so let's talk about them briefly. Number one, because of that high utilization, we have taken people with scores as low as 620 and just by paying down those balances, they've shot their scores up within a several week period of time to well over 700 and then we can put them through. Today's present credit score may qualify you even if you're not knocking on the 700 door or higher, we need to do a consultation and see if the net effect of paying down those cards is going to get you to where we need you to be. Secondarily, we do have a secondary program, in as much as if the client can't qualify, but they have what we call a credit partner—maybe it's a partner in their business, maybe it's a relative, a friend—we can use a credit partner to get the same results, thus being able to put them through the program and that could be a win-win. There's a number of different ways we can literally skin the cat to get to the desired result, which is to get the client funded on that program. Jason: All right. You’re going to help them the pay down process, they can use a credit partner, there's a couple of options there. That's number one, the revolving lines of credit program. Bruce: Number two, one of our other core programs is we have 25 lenders. We have a platform for the 25 lenders and they are offering on the platform anywhere from $1000 to $50,000. We can stack those offers, so if you were to get two $50,000 offers, obviously you pony those up and parlay them into $100,000. Now, we can take more credit-challenged folks. We have gotten people some funding with FICO’s as low as 580. The key here is that there needs to be provable income, where the income on the revolving lines of credit is stated. These will need to be proved up through either showing the last couple of pay stubs and/or from their doing account validation by showing bank statements, 1099s, a year's tax return or what have you. Jason: Okay. Bruce: Very, very simple program, 12 questions asked and answered online, a soft pool with instantaneous pre-approvals and funding within usually a week or a week-and-a-half. This is a secondary program that can be used. We use it all the time and it's very, very effective. Jason: With these 25 lenders, these would be people like maybe Fundbox and some of the services out there. Would it be like those kinds of companies? Bruce: Could be, yes. We have our own lender pool that we work with. The nice thing is, there are a number of lenders that you can apply to on the net today, tomorrow, yesterday, what have you, but that's problematic. Every time you apply, you're going to be getting an inquiry. Every inquiry's going to be anywhere from two to several points and it starts to drag down your profile. Worse than that, other creditors that your applying with, see than you’ve been applying. The way we do it is when you access our platform with one soft inquiry, so it doesn't even show on your report, you're getting one or multiple preapprovals from multiple lenders at multiple options in terms of length anywhere from 12 months out to as long as 60 months or five years. This is an ideal way where you have no FICO hit, no negatives, only positives and you can get the pre approvals before you even press the accept button and go into what we call the final underwriting or the hard underwriting. Jason: Got it. Anything else to know about this second option? What would you call this second option? You're 25 lenders platform or? Bruce: Our 25 letters platform or our installment-based lending platform. Jason: Got it, installment-based. All right, so we’re on the number three now. Bruce: Number three. Let's talk about what we call our BDRA. Our BDRA stands for Business Directed Retirement Account. Now, many of the people that are on the podcast have a rollable IRA or 401(k). Maybe, they're even working and are aware that they have a roll-able IRA or 401(k) amount. Let's just say that you're currently working at an employer. You may have $100,000 there and your employers told you, “Well, you can't touch that, it's not rollable.” They’re may be half correct, because prior to coming to the existing employer, you worked at another employer. When you're at that other employer, guess what? You had a $50,000 IRA, which you’ve been rolled over to your present employer. Well, I'm here to tell you some really great news. You can do what's called a carve-out, so you can take those moneys and move them from your present employer, because those were moneys that came from a previous employer and you can automatically put them into what we call our BDRA. That BDRA is a wonderful opportunity for you to be able to access those funds to do what you want and what you want with them. Jason: That’s called what again? Bruce: Business Directed Retirement Account. Jason: Okay, got it. Bruce: Now, it's not a very, very different than a self-directed normal account. Some self-directed retirement accounts have the ability to give you checkbook capability, which is great. The BDRA coincidentally also does, but many of the self-directed accounts are accounts that once you moved on from your old employer, you've moved them into a self-directed environment so that you can tell your money what you want it to do. The problem with the traditional IRA or 401(k) in a self-directed environment (which many administrators that are out there and offer these types of accounts) is that you cannot use these but for very specific types of transactions. Let's just take a typical real estate transaction, a house costs $200,000, you have $100,000 in the self-directed retirement account. You need to come up with $100,000. Now, unfortunately, you cannot obligate a self-directed retirement account, a traditional type, not ours, but a traditional type and you cannot take on a recourse loan, because one of the exemptions is you cannot sign and obligate your IRA or your 401(k) to an external obligation. If you can't do that whole deal inside your IRA, you're pooched. You can't do the deal. Now, there is the possibility of taking on what's called a non recourse loan where you wouldn't sign. However, there are very few and far between. They never go more than 50% of LTV and they're usually a couple of points higher for all the right reasons. You’re only having a collateralized value of the loan. With a BDRA, I've got great news, you can take recourse loans on and it's not a violation of the BDRA precepts. Secondarily, when you have a normal IRA or 401(k), unfortunately, you're exempt from being able to do what we call inter familiar transactions because they're called a prohibited transaction. Meaning, father-sister, mother-brother, siblings what have you, you plain and simple are not allowed to invest with them because it's prohibited. That is not the case with the self-directed that we have in the BDRA environment. Third, you can put up to $53,000 of your annual salary into this tax deferred vehicle where you cannot with a traditional IRA or 401(k) that’s self-directed. Fourth, you can use the money for any business purpose. Now, you mentioned earlier that you've got coaching programs sometimes that are $10, $20, $30, $40, $50 whatever the amount is, it makes no difference, but the flexibility of the BDRA is a beautiful thing because BDRA funds can be used for any business purpose whatsoever. When you talk about a traditional IRA or 401(k), they're very finite, they're very linear, real estate being one of them, stocks and bonds being another, and there's a couple of others, and pretty much after that, you're out of luck. The flexibility that the BDRA brings to the table is phenomenal, and it is a great way to resource funds for enhancing your real estate business not only from the buying of the doors perspective, but from doing rehabs, for potentially using it for marketing money, to expand your net. There's many, many different ways that these moneys can be used that are all in conformity. Jason: Okay. Alright, BDRA is number three. Number four? Bruce: We have transactional funding. With our transactional funding, I'm sure a number of folks that are on this podcast are engaged with wholesale flips, where you're doing an A to B and B to C transaction. Well, we have transactional funding. We have $1 million on the sidelines at all time. You let us know, give us a couple of days notice. I mean, give us more notice than that, but within a couple of days, we can get the funds prepared, move them electronically to your escrow so that you can close and not have to be out of pocket if you're the wholesaler, and get the job done. The fee cost for that is the most reasonable that I've seen in the industry. The cost for funds is only 1.75% and a $495 transaction fee or our processing fee. Call it what you will. That’s another win-win strategy if you're a wholesaler, and you don't have the funds, and you're going to a traditional escrow. This is a perfect, perfect way to make everything come together so that you can get your property sold to that new buyer. Jason: Is that everything about transactional funding? Bruce: That's everything about transactional funding. Short and sweet. Jason: All right, let's look at number five. Bruce: Let's talk about number five. Now this is an esoteric way of getting funding, but saving the dollar obviously gives you $1 as I put it, redeploy or repurpose and I'm sure we all agree with that, and saving tens of thousands of dollars or more starts to become very, very interesting, let’s tell you how. On the other side of our business, we have our trust division. It's called platinum trust group. Platinum trust group is dedicated to bulletproof asset protection. I'll touch on that in a moment, but let me talk about the money aspect where you can redeploy. Real estate investors by the nature of who they are and what they're [...] are involved with two types in multiple streams of what we call passive income. The passive income that we're talking about would either be long or short term capital gains and/or lease and/or rental income. That is the sum and substance of what it's all about. One or the other. With our proprietary trust which we have 58 copyrights on, we've had the trust for over 20 years, we have over 31,000 clients on this program. As a real estate investor, when the properties are sold or the rents are collected, money goes into the corpus of the trust. However, the good news is, you can use the trust for any trust-related activities which would be anything other than what we call food, fun, or fashion. Now you're doing all your business out of the trust. Don't get me wrong. That doesn't mean you can't buy properties, you can't buy cars, that doesn't mean that you can't act in a fiduciary capacity as a trustee to do everything you would normally be doing on a daily basis. The good news is, that moneys, that long- and short-term capital gains which could be 20%, 30% depending, and/or the income from the lease and rental income, the fact that it goes into corpus and stays in the corpus, and that it’s deferred in perpetuity means you're not going to have the tax bill at the end of the year. Now, we have many investors who have tax bills in the $50,000, $100,000, $200,000 a year and are paying quarterlies that are enough to choke a horse. We're able to defer up to 97% of that annual tax liability, including the quarterlies, and deferred out in perpetuity, which means in 21 years, after the last of the beneficiary heir’s deceased, i.e., 100, 200, 300 years from now, we now have a vehicle that nobody in your family tree is going to have the tax consequence and certainly not you, and now we've got all of this additional liquidity that we can be using for investment purposes and is a huge win for our real estate investors. That's only one piece of the coin because the other side of that coin is the bulletproof asset protection, because you can never have a lien or judgment executed against you. It can't happen, let alone your properties because your properties are in the titanium vault of the trust. This is huge and this is a great, great income opportunity and/or savings opportunity for you. I think we're at number six or are we in number five? Jason: We’re at number six. Bruce: All right. Jason: That was number five. Basically. we will call that your trust division. Bruce: Okay, number six. We have a number of private money solutions and hard money solutions. Solutions that start as low as 4.9% on the APR and 1-2 points. Solutions for clients who have rental income properties and they want to do some cash out. We had even a blanket loan program which is available in 43 states. Again, if you've got properties, we have a solution for you to be able to access a ton of money that you are currently not able to access so that you can redeploy it on new projects. This could be huge for you by our hard end or private money funding. Should you have ground-up projects that you're looking to get underway, these are other ways that we can access funds for you depending upon what the project looks like. There's just so many different machinations without knowing more. We would really need to sit and talk, but not only can we get you the blanket loans, not only can we get you the cash out refis, we can do multifamily, we can do SFRs, ground-up projects. It just depends on what it is that you're looking for. Jason: Okay, great and that's number six. Bruce: That’s number six. Jason: Private and hard money lending solutions. Let's get into number seven. Bruce: Number seven is really a relationship-oriented proposition. Because I lecture on a nationwide basis and know so many people, I am constantly sourcing and/or resourcing and putting folks together. I speak. I meet sponsors. Sponsors are always looking for people to act as general partners for with other people who are newer and/or what I would call green peas and vice-versa. I have green peas that are looking for sponsors. Just by nature, the fact that I love to network, love to help people out, and if people are looking for a connection, I'll give you an example. Yesterday, I had a guy come to me in the Seattle area. He is looking to do a conversion. He’s got 93 apartments that he wants to build in one structure. He’s looking for general partners and money partners and he's got everything ready to go. He’s got the water. He’s got the utilities. He’s got all the zoning. He’s looking for money partners and he's also looking for some management help. Well, we have the perfect fit for him because we have people who are right up in the Seattle area because I've spoken recently up in the Seattle area to 800 people at one event. That’s an easy plug-and-play scenario. Oftentimes, you just never know. I don't know where you're calling in from on a nationwide basis because I know you have callers all over the place. I'm California-centric but I travel. I was just in Boston speaking to 1000 people. You never know who you know and tell me about the situation, and if there's a possibility that we can help, we certainly can try and plug to good ends into one another so that you can make a whole and get your project going, so you can take it to the next level. Jason: Perfect. Looking at all these different methods, let’s say I get a client that comes to me and they want to hire staff. They want us folks on marketing, maybe they want to do some coaching stuff with us, they need to get office space, these typical things to get their business going. Which channel would you push them towards first? What would be the best situation for them first? Bruce: Well, if the need is an average of, say, $75,000 roughly, somewhere between $50,000-$150,000. I’ll kind of use that $100,000 spread. invariably, our revolving line of credit program is the sweet spot and we utilize that at promoter events all the time for that $20,000, that $30,000, $40,000 to get them off the home plate, to get them the coaching program that they need to get them also the initial marketing moneys that they need so that they can really start to get traction and move forward in the marketplace. It's very easy and they don't need to have any collateral. Again, it's a state of program. If the person fits the parameters, it's by far and away, the easiest, fastest, most effective, and cost-effective solution. Jason: Now, what if they just wanted something smaller? They're just getting started, they're bootstrapping. Maybe they're looking for maybe $3000-$20,000, something in there. They just need to get some additional funds to get some things going in the business. Would the recommendation still be the same vehicle? Bruce: Depending. Let's just say today the need is $3000-$20,000. Let's just say they've got $100,000 locked up at the old employer that they used to work for, General Dynamics, let's just say. They're taking that money and they're turning it in the stock market, they're getting a horrible return, and they want to take control of it. I would move all of that to self-directed environment and then parse out where you've got total control over it. Then, I would parse out whatever that amount is that you need to deploy for whatever business purpose. If they only needed $3000, $7000, or $10,000 of that $100,000, they get immediately deployed because they have total discretionary use over the funds once it's in their dominion.  Likewise, another one of our programs might be for them to engage with the 25 lender platform. In a request, only request $3000 or only request $10,000, if that's what it is they're looking for. That could be another way to go. We really need to have a discussion. It's my best suggestion to the folks that are listening because sometimes during the course of discussion, we find a $3000, $7000, or $10,000, may not actually be the sum and substance of what you're looking for depending upon where you are, and where you want to go. Maybe it is. We will come up with based upon your credit what you bring to the table, what's going to be the most cost effective way to get you there. Jason: Let's address the mindset of funding. I'm sure there's people listening and they want to bootstrap everything. They're thinking, "I don't want to go into debt to do anything." What would you say to that? Maybe that mindset is holding them back from being able to grow their businesses quickly and generate more revenue as fast. Bruce: I don't mean to be pragmatic but I would say they might be thinking about being in the wrong business if they don't want to go into debt. I bought houses utilizing credit cards before. If you go to any REIA, anywhere in the United States—if you're not familiar with the term REIA, that's Real Estate Investors Association meeting—if you go to any Real Estate Investors Association meeting anywhere in the United States and you interview, take them out for coffee, talk to them after the meeting, what have you, you ask them how do they get the funds to buy some of their first properties, I can guarantee you, dollars to donuts, that they borrowed money from a friend, borrowed money from their parents, or borrowed money from their credit cards, to get their first property. Or a combination of all three coupled together to make it happen. They didn't have the money and their checking account. It was a little devoid or little depleted at that time.  Guys, this is truly a leverage play, and an arbitrage play, when you're borrowing money at X because you can make lie times X equally that new number which is the ability to compound on the amount of money that you're using to be able to get you that much bigger amount of money at the backend. I'm a firm believer in making the right decisions and not getting these moneys for a C shed or man cave. Forget it, you don't [...] it. If that's your ultimate goal, that's not leverage. That's just sheer stupidity, a waste of time, and a waste of money. If you're looking to get these moneys to be able to deploy them in an efficacious way and to utilize them to gain the leverage to be able to get a much bigger payday down the road when you exercise your exit strategy, let's go. Let's make it happen. We're here to help and get you to your financial goal. Jason: Plant some of these things. I know there's some property managers listening that are like, "I'm not a real estate investor." Some property managers that are running property management companies are not real estate investors. I think many of them are involved but they're thinking, "What about my business? Maybe I need funding for the business." I think the same principle applies. The idea that I want to point out is mindset-wise, I think a business is probably one of the most effective (if you do this well) investments you can invest in a period. Very few things give a return on an investment that a business can. I don't think even real estate, I think a lot of things cannot yield as high of a return as a business that is profitable, and highly effective. If the investment is moving the business towards those things, I would imagine that it's going to far outplay a 401(k) or any other sort of investment. They might be throwing them dollars towards in the long run. An effective business can yield a huge return especially once they sell it. Or it can just be an ATM machine feeding them once they systemize the business and they step out of being involved in it.  If you're going to that, I think it's wise to say, make sure it's going towards the right thing. It's going to yield the ROI you're looking to get.  Bruce: May I ask a brief question? Jason: Go ahead. Bruce: About your audience. I just heard or maybe I misheard, I heard you keying in on property management, and property management companies. Is there a broad segment of your listenership that are in that space? Jason: Yes. Most of the listeners listening are people that run property management companies. They manage properties for and on behalf of investors. Bruce: Okay. Let me just say this about that. I'm going to go back to, I think, it was number six. It might've been number five but it was right in there. We talked and drilled down a little bit about our proprietary trust. Guys, I'm going to say it just like it is, you are in an uber high risk business. Property managers and property management companies, they play it simple, they get sued. Facts are one in three Americans get sued. Two in three, 66% of all surgeons get sued. Property managers, I don't know what the numbers are, but everytime I talk to a property management company, they're constantly getting sued.  Just recently, we put on several property management companies who have gotten the trust. Their prime motivating reason was to have the trust be the owner of the property management company so that they would not have liens or judgments that could be affixed to the company. Guys, this is something you definitely want to explore further. It's very important for you because of the high risk nature of the business that you're in. Jason: Yeah. I agree. I have an asset protection attorney. I think it's a wise choice for everybody who has some asset protection struff going on with things in the trust and make sure the business is protected. Very cool. We've got several people that I've spoken to even recently. They're like, "I don't have the funds to work with, Jason, but I want to work with you. We're trying to get money." Or they're trying to get their business started. Or they know there's some things they need to do and they can't just afford to do it. How can they get in touch with you? How can they reach out? What's the best way to connect with you and what you've got going on? Bruce: If you're looking for funding, I'm going to give you a web address. That web address would be platinumfinancinggroup.com. There's a calendar on there. We will get you a complimentary consult. Please, we'll ask you, make sure that you've mentioned that you came from Jason. We always want to know where clients came from. Jason: Mention DoorGrow and the DoorGrow Show. Bruce: Please. Please, please, please. That'll get you the complimentary consultation now for financing. When Jason's got great programs which I've heard nothing but fabulous things about, that can be the genesis, give you the capital to be able to move your business forward, and get his programs. Secondarily, another way to access the programs, as I've said, from the savings from the tax deferral, from the trust program, and/or talking about the trust as well as an asset protection vehicle. Because if you get wiped out, you're done. You know that. This is one way to ensure that you're not going to get wiped out. I would go to platinumtrustgroup.com. We have another calendar there.  The difference between the two, other than the information that you're going to find and the calendars that you're going to find is that the calendar times that you're going to get blocked out for are quite different. If you go to platinumtrustgroup.com, we're going to block you out for an hour. We can talk about trust. Likewise, we can also talk about funding should you have an interest in both.  If you strictly go to platinumfinancinggroup.com, you'll be directed to a calendar for 15 minute blockout. Just be aware of that. When you make the choices to where's the best entry point to get in touch with us.  Jason: If they're really looking at everything and they want to get the full kit, the best place to probably to go the platinumtrustgroup.com. You can also help them with the financing side of things as well. Bruce: Absolutely. Jason: Perfect. Bruce, it's been fabulous having you on the show. Thanks for taking us through all the different options. I wasn't aware that there were so many different options for funding. I appreciate all the info that you're able to share with us today. Bruce: I certainly appreciate you're allowing me to come on your show. It's been a pleasure. I look forward to chatting with you guys. We'll get you taken care of. We'll get you the funding so that you can take your business to the next level and protected as well at the same time. Jason: Fantastic. One thing I just thought off. A lot of our listeners run property management companies. They're all connected to investors. Do you have a sort of program or a relationship that you can make with these entrepreneurs that are working and dealing with lots of investors trying to get them into multiple properties and new properties? Bruce: Absolutely. Not only that, we need to talk because we have an affiliate program. Give me a call, let's have that discussion. That's a whole other discussion and another income stream, potentially, for you. I'm glad you mentioned that, Jason. That was a great heads up. Jason: Perfect. Bruce, it's great to connect and I will let you go. Bruce: Thank you so much for the opportunity again. Have a great day, have a great weekend. Jason: If you're a property management entrepreneur, who wants to grow your business, who wants to add doors, you're looking, you're feeling a little bit stuck, you're dealing with some of the typical challenges, you're trying to do SEO, pay-per-click, content marketing, and social media marketing, you're just not getting the ROI, you're not adding the doors you're wanting to. There might be something different. There might be some things that you're missing. You might have some leaks in your business that you can't see. Reach out to DoorGrow. We'll help you shore those leaks up. We'll help you get on a trajectory of growth. I will be honored to be able to coach you through that stuff. We can certainly help you redesign your website.  If you need to go and test your shiny new website or your old website, go to doorgrow.com/quiz. See if it's got some leaks there. You could be losing tens or hundreds of thousand dollars in future ROI every month depending on how many leads or deals you are missing out on because your website isn’t upgraded. I want you to have an A+. Talk to DoorGrow and let's see if we can help you get that taken care of. Until next time, everybody. To our mutual growth. Bye everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Whether you’re flying a plane or dealing with property management, manual processes based on your own way of interpreting a task doesn’t always represent your brand. Today, I am talking to Jo-Anne Oliveri, founder and managing director of ireviloution. Jo is a leading authority on property management and author of Find Your Property Manager Now. In this episode, she describes how to streamline business operations.  You’ll Learn... [05:00] Find your passion, and change your life. [07:05] Crusade for Courage: Understand property management and real estate from investors’ point of view to pursue your dreams. [08:15] Build business using deliberate methods, not desperate measures. [10:35] Singing and Standing in Line: Businesses built on foundation of consistent processes and systems decrease frustration and anxiety. [17:55] Scalability and Serviceability Platform: Streamline business operations by identifying tasks, each with its own timeline and priority plus corresponding tasks. [21:28] Brand Culture, Business Vision: Brand relationship is greater than individuals. [22:18] Selecting Process Software: Depends on your business, but needs to work for your budget, growth plans, and how you want to build your business. [28:37] Streamlining System Components: Processes, resources, and training. [33:51] Vision for Success: Every business needs to start with a plan. [34:24] Default vs. Design: Desperate to make changes due to shiny object syndrome. [35:20] Task Tracker: Require and verify accountability, responsibility, and transparency via consistency, compliance, and completion. [40:03] Which is worse: Losing a client or team member?  [44:25] Step-by-Step Process: How to get started streamlining business operations. Tweetables How can you run a business when no one is doing a job the same way? Career by Design: Empower owners with courage to take control of their businesses. Passionate about crusade of creating positive change in property management. Businesses built on processes create a foundation, not frustration.  Resources ireviloution Jo-Anne Oliveri on LinkedIn Jo-Anne Oliveri’s Email Jo-Anne Oliveri’s Phone: 917-969-4066 Jo-Anne Oliveri on Facebook Find Your Property Manager Now: Hire the Right Agent and Make More Money Awaken the Giant Within: How to Take Immediate Control of Your Mental, Emotional, Physical and Financial Destiny! by Tony Robbins Rent Manager Buildium AppFolio Process Street DGS 80: Automating Your Business with Process Street with Vinay Patankar DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today, I'm hanging out with lovely Jo Oliveri from the ireviloution.  Jo: Hi there. Jason: Hi, welcome. Jo: Thank you. Thanks for having me. Jason: Glad to have you. We're going to get into your background first, but before we do that, I'm going to read your bio here for the audience, for the listeners, so they have a little bit of understanding. The topic we're going to be talking about is streamlining business operations, is that right? Jo: Correct. Jason: Okay. I'm sure everybody here, everyone listening—clients, friends, property managers—they all could use a little bit of streamlining in the business operations. That's something close to you and to my heart as well. Let me tell me people a little bit about you here. Do you go by Jo or Jo-Anne? Jo: Jo. Jason: Okay. Jo is the Founder and Managing Director of ireviloution and PM Leadership Summit Vice-President, First Team Property Management with over 20 years of real estate experience. I don't know what the CIPS or TRC are. What are those? Jo: CIPS is a National Association of Realtors designations. It’s Certified International Property Specialist. The TRC is Transnational Referral Certification, the very handy ones we have specially in property management we're dealing with people from all around the world. Jason: Okay. Jo is a leading authority on all things property management and an inspiring force within the industry. As Founder and Managing Director of ireviloution and the Property Management Leadership Summit and Vice-President of First Team Property Management based in the USA, she's an international real estate identity who has trained over 500 agencies, thousands of agency owners, and property managers worldwide. She is seen as a leading authority in all things property management and regularly speaks at the industry's top Australian and North American conferences. She's also author of the real estate books, Find Your Property Manager Now: Hire the Right Agent and Make More Money. As well, she was selected as an Industry Thought Leader of the Year finalist for 2015, 2016, and 2017 Real Estate Business Awards, and is an Industry Influencer for the Elite Agent 2017 Awards. Jo is a big deal. Jo, welcome to the show again. Tell me, how did you get into this property management stuff? For those who are watching, I'm hanging out in my son's room. It was the only quiet place today. I've got pug posters behind me for those that can't see. How cool is this kid here? Jo: All the room. Jason: Yeah. He likes pugs. Jo, tell everybody, how did you get into this? Jo: Actually, I came from a business background. We had a family business in grocery stores and convenience stores. We were involved in the 80s down turning businesses. We had very high interest rates, we were paying for our business loan and our home loan, and we lost everything, we have bankrupted. What I discovered is the business I was working in was my husband's passion, it was not my passion. I wanted to find something I was passionate about.  I'm a mom, I had three small children, and I read this book by Anthony Robbins called Awaken The Giant Within. It's an excellent book, it changed my life. I did all of the exercises and at the end of that, it was steering me towards real estate. I was a tenant at the time because we've lost our property and property management is where I landed. What was really interesting is because I came from a business background, I ended up getting a job with a company in Perth, Western Australia where I originally come from. I thought, "This is an awesome business." There were three other property managers and I was asking them, "What do I do?" They're all telling me different things. I thought, "How do you run a business like this where no one is doing the same job the same way?" They were talking to clients differently, giving different advice. It set me on a path of understanding the business of property management because I saw that there are enormous opportunities to grow a business through property management rather than grow a business through sales. Hence, I started off on a journey of career by design and I thought, "One day, I want to be able to empower business owners with the courage to take control of their business." Have a business that represents their vision, their brand, and their personality, but for me to do that, I had to understand everything, not just property management but the business of real estate.  Hence, my journey started and I've worked in all areas of real estate with large franchise groups and small boutique agencies, wealth companies to understand how the investor feels. I've purposely invested in real estate myself to understand what it's like from an investor's point of view. It's all brought me to this point here today. Like you, I'm passionate, I'm on a crusade to empower positive change in the property management industry by infusing business leaders with the courage to pursue their dream. Jason: Love it. It's very similar to my why or our business why which is the transform property management businesses and their owners. Let's get in to this. Streamlining business operations. Maybe we should start with why this is important. Jo: Well, this is very important because if you don't streamline business operations, you become what I call, a business built on desperate measures instead of deliberate methods. Everything becomes by default, every decision is by default, recruiting new staff is by default, service promises is by default. You start to become another “me too” property management company where we all start to look the same. You lose sight of your vision and your why. You start to offer property management services in the beginning.  When I was learning everything I could about what’s so good about property management business operations and what goes wrong, I started to see that streamlining systems was a major cause of why things go wrong in property management. That actually made me go on a search and discovery tour of other industries. They had systems and processes and it actually brought me here, to where I'm living right now in Orange County, California. In 2007, I went to the Disney Institute to learn how Disney creates all their processes and streamlines everything that they do and discover why people will spend. If you're like me and had to travel from Australia to go to Disneyland, you can spend a few tens of thousands of dollars going there taking your family, all the privilege of standing in a line to get on a ride for up to two hours. I discovered people don't complain. They actually stand in these lines and they whistle and they talk to each other. Yet people call a property management company and if they're not responded to within a matter of minutes they become very frustrated. My discovery was it's because they don't know the process either. If a company is built on processes then you know everyone who work within the guidelines of those processes including the clients that you're dealing with. That becomes a very, very strong foundation in creating success in any property management business. It’s just critical. If you look at the other businesses or other industries like Starbucks, it’s all built on processes, it's all built on how do we create maximum efficiency right down to measuring how long does it take for the barista to get the scoop of coffee beans out of the sack and put them into the machine that makes the coffee. If we move the coffee bag 2 inches closer, that's going to save over a period of time, 100 hours every month. It also reduces the loss of coffee beans spillage.  I started to understand the concept of time efficiency through processes and streamlining with systems and related it all back to how do we do it in property management. Jason: I love it. I love the idea. I mean, essentially what you're saying is that processes just like the example you give with lines of Disney which I don't want to stand in those, by the way, but it disarms people by them knowing that there's process and I think it creates some safety for them.  They really have two choices at that point is to choose into the process that exists or not. But if a process isn't there then what naturally ends up happening is people try to implement or push their own agenda or their own process onto the property manager. "Hey I need this done by here. I need this done at this time. I need them to show up now or this time." They'll try to push their agenda and process onto the property manager because there isn't a clear one for them to see. Jo: Exactly. Hence, the business starts to become a very reactive thing. You will hear the shock horror stories where a property manager says, "We just lost an owner. They terminated their management with us." We thought they're really happy because we never hear from them. You never hear from them and you never had that contact with them. They're thinking like, "What are they doing? Where's the value that I pay?" So, whatever you do it's got to be consistent across every client. Again, I'll relate this back to Disney where the people who run the rides, I mean a lot of them are just young kids, they're college kids, and they don't start to get reactive when they can see that the line is two, three, four hours long on Independence Day for the Incredibles ride last year. Everyone stood in a hot sun for four hours. Their Disney cast, as they call them, they just did their job and kept smiling, just pushing the people through and offering alternatives with single rider and things like that. We can learn a lot from Disney. Jason: I like the idea of what you were saying about just making sure that the process is visible. Something I noticed that you spark the memory. In the past, I had jobs working in IT. When you work in IT at a company, it doesn't matter how good of a job you do. You still are the lowest person on the totem pole when it comes to there being an emergency. If there's a problem with the server, something goes down in the middle of the night you're on call, it doesn't matter if you're like one of the top executives in the business or you paint really well. If you do everything perfect, nobody would notice and never going to say, "Why do I even pay you?" If there's a problem, they notice and then, they would say, "Why do we even pay you?" I'm a little bit smart, just a little bit. What I realize is if I was just noisy about what I was doing, my bosses or my superiors would now see that I was doing stuff. I'm like, "Hey, I just upgraded this. Hey, I just took care of this. Hey, there hasn't been any problems with this because I did this." I just started being noisy about the things that I was doing. I worked at HP for a while as well and I had a boss in Texas while I was in Boise. It was the same thing. He was like, "What are you guys doing? Are you doing this?" He would ask each person on my team, "Is the other one doing their job?" I just started updating my instant messenger status with what I was working on just so he could see, to reduce that anxiety that he had that we weren't doing anything. Then, he started thinking, "I was the only one on the team doing stuff." So, I think maybe there's the little secret and what you'd mentioned that the property managers need to be a little bit more visible in what they're doing to maintain these properties in letting people know that, "Hey, we did something here," and keeping the owners informed so that they go, "Okay. That's why I pay you." Jo: Exactly. It's like evidence defeats doubt and you got to share the value to the clients and remind them, "Hey, over the past year, we've managed to increase your rent by 10% and it's 5% above the average in the area. This means [...] your asset value has increased this much. Now, we're here to help you to maximize returns and optimize growth. This is what we've done so far with you. What are your goals for the future? Perhaps you might consider buying another property because you've built equity in this property and you've built income in this property." It's about planting the seeds of thought in your clients mind and always having that connection. Property management can be as frustrating for the rental property owners as it is for property managers but it need not be. It all comes down to your systems. When you've got systems, it then articulates your value and worth, and your service promise as well to the clients. Jason: We're talking about streamlining business operations, we're talking about implementing systems, making sure there's processes. How would you how would you define streamlining business operations? What really is it? It sounds like a nebulous, all-encompassing sort of thing, I think. Jo: It truly is. You're quite correct. A lot of people don't understand how do I streamline my processes. I've got different systems for this and different systems for that. We do a lot of I'm diagnostic reporting on business operations to see where things might be falling through the cracks or things are not working together. The thing with property management is we have a multitude of things going on at any given time. Every task that we do has its own timeline and has its own priority. For every task that we do, it has a plethora of tasks involved within that one task and it could have several team members involved in that one task as well. For instance, if we’re bringing on a new management, then there is a lot of admin work involved in that. When we bring on a new management, that then moves on to leasing that property, finding a tenant for that property, and it's not always the same person involved. What you need is a business that's built on a platform of scalability and a business that's built on a platform of serviceability so that we can always service the client, scale our business growth. To do that means that we need to make sure we're streamlining systems. Streamlining systems in property management is about identifying every task that we do in property management and almost seeing your business like it's a series of all these cogs that all work together. Those cogs need [...] or turn in perfect sync so that we're just moving on to the next task, next team member that needs to be done. There is nothing that creates what they call “the bushfire is starting” because something has fallen through the cracks or something as you know stopped another process from being completed. Creating systems, to me, is something that needs to be engineered. You can't look at one system and say, "We're going to do this for onboarding new management." We're going to use this other system for looking after the property once we've got it occupied and things like that. All of those systems all have to work as one. The only way to do this is to engineer, to architectural design how your systems work together so that as your business grows and you bring in new team members or new roles, you can seamlessly move one task to a new role and know that it's not going to fall through the cracks, or know that you don't have a team member who says," I got this relationship with the client. I'll just do it all and whilst they're focusing on that, other things are falling through the cracks. Like a good point there is, whenever you've got team members who say, "I've got a relationship with the client." You've got a problem because the relationship is with your brand. Your team represent your brand and your vision. If you've infused your team with your brand culture, personality, promise and standards, then all the team are representing exactly what your vision is for your business. Jason: I love that. The brand relationship is greater than the people, individual person relationship that should be in the company and everybody should have that mindset on your team. You mentioned a lot about platform, systems, scalability. I know a lot of property managers out there are a little bit more nerdy than the average real estate person. They're listening to this and they're thinking, “What system should I be using? What is the ultimate software for doing all these processes and systemized in my business.” Do you have a favorite? Jo: In my role, I do get to look at a lot of different software. I do due diligence. I think my best answer to that is it depends on your business. And it truly does. When you look at software, it's got to work for you. It's got to work for, (1) your budget, (2) your growth plans, and (3) how you got to build your business and what you want that software to represent about your business. Currently, the company that I'm working for here in California is using rent manager and that's been very good. For us, we've got over 30 branches spread out from South LA to San Diego. That's a huge area that we cover and our home office is in the middle, it's somewhere in the middle, in Orange County. Through that, we've been able to customize that software so it suits our scalability and the way we service our clients and our agents. We've got over 3000 agents in first team, so we want to make sure that we have a way of measuring the referrals that our agents come in and keeping them connected to that client. Rent manager works for this company. If there's other great ones like [...]. It's very, very good. That started out small- to medium-businesses and I think it fits really well in that marketplace, but I know that they've been doing a lot of work on how can they build a platform that is useful for bigger businesses as well . And then, of course, there's appFolio and there's a lot of popular ones out there. I encourage people, when they're choosing software, choose software based on a due diligence that they do in accordance with what they're looking for in the software. The other thing to remember with software is it's not your system. Your software is the platform if you like that you store all your data and generate your reports. Your system is your manual operations. A great analogy are pilots because pilots have these massive computer systems that fly the planes, but pilots have to go through a manual process of check-listing that everything is working, that three people agree that everything is working before that plane will take off. There is a manual process to flying a plane and property management is the same. It's these manual processes where a lot of companies are going wrong because everyone is doing it their own way, that they interpret a task, and it doesn't represent the brand. Jason: Right. This is a problem with processes. For those listening, I'm a big fan of the software process tree. It allows you to have a process system that is outside of whatever accounting or back office you're using free property management company and you can really dial in. For those listening, check out the previous episode that I did with Process Street. I think you'd be really interested in hearing that. I think the challenge with most process systems or systems out there where they have some process documentation in the business is that once a team member has read the process document and they've done it a couple times, they think they know it. It's in their head. They're not going to go back and check it. They're not checking against the process if the process gets documented, gets updated, or the process gets changed, or that person makes changes to the process, they're probably not updating that. There's always this gap between what the process is and what's documented, if it even is at all. Think about all of us that drive cars. We don't check the manual for the car or read the DMV booklet on how to drive the car, all the rules of driving every time we get into the car. The first time, we probably checked every mirror and made sure everything was okay, but now we just drive it it's like an extension of our body. That's how team members feel. They may simplify things, they make short-cut, they may cut things out, they may forget about things, they maybe weren't onboarded properly, they weren't trained properly. I'm a big fan of having a process that they have to use each time where they have to check something off. There's some manual input that says I did this and I followed these steps. Jo: Exactly. I totally agree. I was at a conference where one of the doctors from one of the busiest hospitals in Australia—he works in the emergency section—said, regardless of the level of emergency, they still have to follow a checklist where everything is ticked off. That's where we're going wrong in property management is because property managers keep it in their head and they make a slight change to a process which has sometimes devastating results to the overall business. My own company, ireviloution, we've designed those manual processes which are architecturally designed, but every manual process you have, you've got to have a way of measuring so you've also got your management leadership that locks into that, so that we know that we're being efficient and compliant, consistent and complete everything that we're doing. To me, when you have a system, there's three different components when it comes to streamlining. One is your processes. You've identified what all the processes are for every task that we do in property management that then we'd lock in and we can measure the efficiency, effectiveness, profitability, performance, productivity, everything shows that process. Then, what locks into that is your resources. Jason: This is number two? Jo: Yes. P plus R resources is that resources have to be designed. If there is a tweak in those resources, which we find a lot of property managers say, “But I want to put this step in,” that step might be somewhere else in the process. By tweaking it, it can actually break something down.  The third step which is really, really critical is T, P plus R plus T, equals training. Your training is a vital importance and what we discovered in property management is to become a property manager, we're really learning theory—the theory of property management. If you look at doctors to go through university and college for seven years learning how to be a doctor, it's still all theory. Once they've graduated they've got to go into the learning hospitals to learn the practice of being a doctor, the practice of what happens when a patient does present themselves with an emergency or with some kind of condition. It's ongoing training for them. The training that we have in property management needs to be something where if you're putting your team through training, it's got to be consistent as well. If they're going off to all these different training courses, then they're not learning the process and the resource. So, there's a breakdown. All three elements of the P plus R plus T are critical in streamlining business operations. Jason: Alright. I'm gonna recap this. So, you're saying everyone gets that they need processes and it's helpful to make sure that the processes are very well-defined and people know how long it's going to take. Explained resources because I think that's a little bit less clear. What is a resource? Jo: Resources are your paper documents. When we put information into software, there's still a way that we gather that information or the data that is then put into the software to make sure that we've got all the information we need. I call it your intel and your insight into everything that we do. The resources are just like what I mentioned before with the emergency doctors or the pilots where their resources are checklist. Then, your resources are also the way that the business owner can measure productivity, performance. it's how they measure, monitor, and manage what's going on. So, resources are things like one checklist to the different forms that you use for some legal forms and some just best practice forms like getting a tenant to sign a disclaimer that they know that they're not allowed to disconnect smoke detectors for instance. We know that we didn't just tell them, we actually got them to sign a form and they understand the consequences in different forms. Your productivity trackers are manual forms so we can measure productivity against what's going into your software. So, that's all your resources. The resources that we've developed, we've got over 500 resources there and that's the enormity of the resources that you need to manage your property management business depending on the size, of course, and team structure. The training speaks for itself. Jason: Yeah. You need to make sure that they're actually leveraging these things and they understand. I like what you said. There needs to be consistency because a lot of people just want to send the team off to these property management conferences and they come back with a whole different set of ideas, "Well, this company's doing this." I had one client that didn't even talk to me but came back and said, "I decided to change my whole structure from departmental to another structure." He was changing his entire company and then everything fell apart. I was like, "How did you know that that was right for you?" He's like, "Well, all the cool people are doing it,” was basically the answer. All the cool people were changing their whole business and I said, "Your business was working and now, it's not." Jo: Yeah. You hear that a lot and that's why I think that they haven't got a plan to start off with. Every business has to be built upon a plan. It's not a financial plan, it's an operational business plan. So, what they've done is they've created their vision for success and they've mapped it out. It's like creating the way that you're going to get from LA to Brisbane in Australia. You've got a plan, you've got a timeline, you've got a budget, you've got all of that. But you know, a lot of them become very reactionary, their business becomes default instead of design, and that's where they start to be desperate. It's like, "Oh, this is not working. Let's change something else." They lose the deliberation around their business because they don't have a plan in the first place. A killer of business growth is when you keep changing what you're doing because someone else is doing it. Jason: Shiny object syndrome. Jo: Exactly. That's right. That's a term we use a lot because business owners are like, "Oh, if that's happening over there, let's try that." That's why we all become clones of each other. When you talk to consumers, the people that we serve, they all see us as the same. So, very important.  Jason: Okay. So, you have processes resources training and I think anytime there's a process, somebody needs to be responsible for it, there needs to be clear accountability, there needs to be process documentation and there needs to be a clear definition of done, like how this does this need to be done? How can we verify that it's done? There needs to be accountability. There needs to be some transparency there as well like some scoreboard or some way to know that they've won, or completed, or finished, and there needs to be that accountability or responsibility. If we have all these things in place, then is that everything that they need? Jo: Yes and no because the other thing is that the business leader or if they appoint someone to manage that business, they got to keep their finger on the pulse because accountability is just king when it comes to property management. One of the problems I have in property management is they're not profitable. They've got property managers who keep saying, "I'm so busy, I can't get this done. I need someone else." And because they don't have the data and the statistics about how long it takes to do a job because they're not using processes and resources, then they start to react to that team member saying, "I can't do this anymore. I'm too busy, I'm stressed out, I'm going to leave." I know you can't leave because if you leave I'm going to lose all my clients. Well, comes back to there's no point in having processes and resources if you don't have accountability. That's what I was mentioning before, you've got to be able to manage it so you've got to have the ability to say, "We know exactly what's going on with the business. We know when we've got peaks and when there's pressure on the team because of those peaks. We also know when we need to bring in new resources in terms of new team and what that role will be and what we're prepared to pay and offer that new team member." For every task that we do, the objective is to be consistent, to be compliant and to complete within the timeline and priority of that task and then to be able to measure how many tasks a property manager is doing daily, weekly, monthly. The only way you do that is with the business resources. We've got something that we call a task tracker so we can measure many things with that. One thing is the number of tasks our property manager is doing weekly, monthly. The other thing is every number tells a story. You can see that if we've done this then this should generate a job new tasks over here. What's that done? Do the numbers all add up? Are we doing that? We start to then create that historical data about our business so that we know we've got peak times, we've got risk associated with this time of the year with our business. The business leader has what we call finger on the pulse. They can make those decisions, added deliberation not desperation. Jason: I think one of the things that's really helpful in tracking just about anything that you care about in the business, whatever it might be, the one thing that's super helpful is just it gives you context. Even just having two data points like we did this much this last month and we did this much this month, you can tell if it's gone up or down and that allows you to understand where you keep your finger on the pulse, as you say, or to have an idea of whether these things are improving or getting worse, or whether business is changing. Property management certainly ebbs and flows during certain times of the year. It helps you to see, "Okay, these are the trends that we see during the summer when kids are getting out of school and these are the trends that we're seeing through the winter months when things have cooled down." It gives them some context and that allows them to plan and prepare for the future and understand, "All right. We're ahead of where we were last year or we're behind. We should be concerned like we can make changes, let's make adjustments." It allows you to feel safer as an entrepreneur, it lowers your pressure and noise it makes you less reactive. I'm sure there's other benefits to come from that. Jo: Exactly. Well, it takes away what we said at the start up is that they fear losing a client more than they feel losing a team member because they've got control of their business. If their team member is not performing then, they know how to manage them to perform better. Sometimes, team members do have a use by date and it might be good to let them go but let them go with respect and honor rather than like, "Oh my gosh. I'm losing them in a one lose business." We should never, ever have that fear about our business. Our business is about us, it's about our vision. Jason: Right. So, team members may have an expiration date. Jo: I think some of them do. Jason: Fair enough, probably true. So, wouldn't be great if they just had that stamp on their forehead when they came to us at the beginning? Then we would know.We can keep their replacements ready, we'd get everything documented really clearly but that's the nice thing about having things documented. My assistant that I just had just recently took another job, but we had everything documented I wasn't freaking out like in the past I might have been freaking out. Losing a team member that was critical to operations would be really a big deal but we've got things documented. There's this safety that comes with having things documented and if it's documented well enough, that's the question you ask yourself, those listening, "Do you feel like if any certain member of your team left that you have you have their knowledge documented so that the next person could step into that without having to be trained by them directly?" If you don't, then that's where business owners have a lot of fear. They have a lot of fear in that, "Oh no, if I lost this person, it would be so detrimental." Here's the thing I've noticed anytime somebody said, "Oh, it would be the worst thing ever if I lost this one team or if I lost Susy or whoever this person might be in my whole business. It would be terrible, it would be the worst thing ever." That's like the best person for them to lose. I notice every time it's because they don't understand what that person is doing, that person is usually doing a lot of things that maybe are redundant or unnecessary or not done the way you have them done. When they do leave, you have to step in, you have to figure these things out. You realize, "Why were they doing it that way?" Because we didn't have that transparency into what was really going on. We weren't able to manage it, we weren't able to help improve it and it wasn't very effective in a lot of situations. I had one assistant that I had for like three years and I thought, "Oh, if I lost her it would be the worst thing ever." Really, when I lost that person, it was one of the best things that happened to our business. We changed so many things, I realize a lot of things could be done more efficiently and it's never as bad as our brains make it out to be. Jo: You're absolutely right. Property managers love to be loved, but we need to change that thinking because we want people to love the brand and respect the team that represent the branch. Out of respect comes love. Property managers need to let go and know that clients will respect them if they're delivering on the service promises and results. They'll feel good about themselves. I think every owner needs to work their business as if when a team member leaves, this is what happens. Everything that we've got in our business is all built upon generic names. It's not a person's name. It's not a person's phone number. Everything is associated with a role, so I move the team around within the roles and to the client, it's seamless. It's still first team servicing them. Jason: Right. It's maintenance, it's not Fred. Jo: Exactly. The team has that personality. They're friendly, they want to help the clients. Jason: Yeah, love it. Cool. So, we've talked about the who, the what, the why. So, how do people get started with streamlining their business operations? Maybe we could just dig into the actual process of getting their processes and their resources and their training all dialed in. Jo: Yeah. That's a really good question, Jason. The thing is when you're implementing processes, there's a whole process around them as well. What you want to do is you want to get everyone engaged in it. You need to get your team engaged, you need to get your clients engaged so they understand what's going on as well. You need to create a step-by-step process of, at this step, we're going to implement this new process and we'll introduce that to the clients because there might be new policy around that as well. Articulate and communicate that to the clients. They get to buy in with what we're doing and they've got the opportunity to voice any concerns or misunderstandings. The best thing is, know that when you are implementing new processes, then you have to muddy the waters for a bit. You're going to find all these things that start rising to the surface moving up like, "What's going on here? I've got team that are unhappy. I'm losing team." Normally, that will happen because you haven't started with the process. So, muddy the waters and have a look at what you need to do first. It could be restructuring the team to start off with. It could be redefining, and reassigning, and realigning roles, but whatever the step is, you need to look at it like a building lego blocks, one by one by one. This one means that this is going to happen. Once that happens, then this next step is going to happen. My best advice is don't do it all at once, have a plan of implementation, a plan of communication as well, and a plan of education. It really is a step-by-step process. Jason: Yeah, I think when we're leading a team, when we're leading a company, our job really is to inspire everybody to be excited about what we're going to be doing rather than control them. I like to say, whenever we failed to inspire, we always control by default. If you can inspire your team and get them excited, "Hey, we're going to be doing this. Here's why, here's how this will benefit you, here's how this will benefit the business. Everything will be better off," and you can get them on board and get them in alignment, then they will help you do it. But if you are trying to control them and force them and say, "Hey, we're going to be doing this," you're going to churn some people. You're going to lose some people Especially if you're making changes and they're used to doing things being done a certain way, that shakes them up and makes them feel insecure, makes them feel uncomfortable. You start documenting their processes and, “Why we didn't document these before?” They're going to thinking, “Is my job okay? Why are you having me to document this now? I'm doing a good job, aren't I?” We need to really be careful and inspire our team members to take care of these things and help us. I think, as entrepreneurs, we also try to shoulder everything on our own a lot of times. Our team members are the ones that are doing these processes. A lot of times they know it better than us and that they should be the ones helping us do it. We have the insight to be able to look at those ones they're documented and help them figure out, "Hey, maybe we can improve this. We can make this better. Let's see if we can make this easier for you and make this faster for you. Or what would help you move this forward quicker?" Jo: Exactly. One of the things I learned at Disney is Disney has a wonderful way like everyone who works at Disney wants to be there. If Disney makes changes, they have a lovely way of making sure that the cast are all on board and involved. The way that they do that is they have this program where they all sit around, it's like brainstorming to a degree but everyone has a say and they build on what they're saying. It's never like that's not going to work, it's like yes and they build on that idea. They bring it around to something that is a way that the business leader can drive their business in a way that they want to. The team all have that understanding. When we go in and we work with businesses, we talk about infusing the team not just like, "This is what we're doing." It's like if you actually infuse them with the vision and how it's all going to be for everyone, then they will have that encouragement and that willingness to like, "I want to be a part of this." And that's what you want for the team. And your clients, too. Jason: Yeah. Ultimately, we have two types of people in our team. We either have believers or we have hiders. The hiders are just there to get a paycheck, probably do as little as possible and complain about us on the weekends. The believers, we get their discretionary time. They're thinking about us after hours, they're thinking about their job, they want to be better, they want to improve and they're looking for solutions. It's a very different mindset. But they can't be a believer unless they have something to believe in and you're relating that to them. So, we have to give them the chance to be able to believe in us. Jo: Yeah. It's so true. You're talking before when we mentioned about the use by date. Sometimes, we can have insight into that as well because when we bring on our new recruits and then we do our monthly 1on1s with them or however often you do it, that's a way to gain insight into what they're thinking what they're short and long-term dreams are. You will know that at some point, your company might not be able to offer them the future that they're seeking. You don't have the next role for them in their career. That's okay because while they've been with your company, they've helped you to grow your company and you're still in control of your company if you've got all of the systems and processes, that person will go off still having respect for your company and you have respect for them. That's the way I would love it to be in the industry if we all understand it's okay to say bye-bye to team for the right reasons. Jason: Right. Any relationship can be ended amicably. Jo: Absolutely. Jason: Any relationship. I mean life's all about relationships and relationships can be ended poorly and very negatively and it can cause a lot of drama or they can be ended amicably. We should always look for that route first. That's the best Jo, is there anything else that our listeners should hear or should know about streamlining business operations before we wrap this up? Jo: I think, Jason, we just encourage them to not go it alone because creating a process and then the resources around it, it does take a lot of work. It's like engineering mindset and I see a lot of property management business owners make the mistake of letting their property managers do it. They say, "You bring in the systems and you create the systems." They can't do that. They're employing that person to look after their clients and bring in new clients. Whilst they're doing something that they're not entirely skilled to do, then it's impacting the business and quite often there is no goal and you'll say, "Well, where are the systems they created?" I say invest in systems, invest in people that really know what they're doing when it comes to designing systems because all system should be customized to [...] their business is well. When you implement, do it in stages, do it in a process so everyone feels good about the changes that have been made. Jason: Jo, how can people get in touch with you if they're wanting some help on their systems and on some of the things we talked about? Jo: Well, thank you. They can email and I'll spell this out because I've got a very confusing business name, but as I was explaining to Jason before, my business name, ireviloution, is my surname backwards, Oliveri. I always said I'd create a revolution in the industry, so it kind of went together. So, my email is jo@ireviloution.com or you can call my cell here in the US. I'm living in California so Pacific time and it's (917) 969-4066 or even look me up on Facebook or LinkedIn. Jason: Perfect. Alright, cool. Well, Jo, it's been fun connecting with you. I think we share a lot of alignment and I look forward to seeing what you do in the future. Jo: Definitely, as I do look forward to watching you. I love what you're doing.  Jason: Thank you, I appreciate it. All right, we'll let you go. Jo: Thanks, Jason. Bye. Jason: If you are property management entrepreneur that wants to have doors and make a difference as we talked about in the intro, please reach out to DoorGrow. We would love to help and see if we can help you grow your company and be sure to check out Jo, really cool stuff that she was talking about today. I hope you got a lot of value from this episode and until next time to our mutual growth. Bye, everyone. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Do you want to grow your single-family portfolio, but not sure how? Don’t think you’re smart enough to be successful in real estate? Invest in yourself, get an education, and hire a coach. Today, I am talking to Mark Dolfini, founder of Landlord Coach and author of three real estate books. Mark shares how he ventured into real estate, property management, and landlord coach. He follows the VIP Paradigm: Vision, Infrastructure, and Process.  You’ll Learn... [04:40] Real Estate Education: You can learn, if you want to; even if you’re not smart. [07:21] Hospitality Industry: How to treat people, customers, and residents like guests. [10:37] Set up sustainable business by shifting to VIP Paradigm. [14:35] Landlord Coach’s favorite catch phrases focus on valuing your time and money.  [19:30] Better Business Owner: It’s not about the number of doors, but what you’re trying to accomplish in revenue and lifestyle. [26:40] Cycle of Suck and 4 Ds to Revenue (doors, deals, duration, and dollars). [29:10] Being time wealthy is more of a decision than a destination. [31:37] Bad communication is a symptom of the problem, not the problem. The problem is a bad infrastructure and/or process.  [36:35] Product to Produce: Consistency; sloppiness is your only competition. [37:35] Negative Feedback Loop: If you put something in place, make sure it gets done. [39:04] Company’s Compass: Define/develop core values to make business decisions. [41:55] Being your own boss is great, but get a coach to take you where you want to go. [44:10] Difference between mentor and coach: Invest in yourself by paying a coach to hold you accountable. Tweetables Real Estate Education: It’s about the want to; not the intelligence. Don’t do it all. Learn to fire yourself! There is no amount of money that will make time irrelevant.  If you don’t place a value on your free time, someone else will.  Resources Mark Dolfini on Facebook Landlord Coach The Time-Wealthy Investor 2.0 Marriott DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome, DoorGrow hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you are open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you’re crazy for doing it, you think they’re crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high-trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I’m your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let’s get into the show. Today I’m hanging out with Mark Dolfini of Landlord Coach. Mark, welcome to the show. Mark: Hey, it’s great to be here. That’s a heck of an intro. Jason: It’s our manifesto, I call it. Mark: I love it. That speaks directly to my heart when we’re talking about people who want to grow their single family portfolios. That gets me fired up. Jason: So Mark, I want to introduce you. I’m really excited to have you on the show. We’re talking before show a little bit and we have a lot of alignment. We both believe in coaching, we both believe in having coaches. It says Mark Dolfini is a veteran of the US marines—thank you for your service—and the author of three real estate books. He was first published in 2017, second book released in early 2018, and his third book, The Time-Wealthy Investor 2.0, came out in March of 2019. He received a Bachelor of Science in Accounting at Purdue University, worked for Marriott International before venturing out full time into the world of real estate investing. He’s a managing broker for property management company based out of Lafayette, the founder of Landlord Coach, sits on numerous boards, including the Better Business Bureau of Central Indiana, the National Federation of Independent Business, and is a training director for the Central Indiana BNI Franchise and Networking Organization. He spends his free time pistol shooting and kayaking, and lives in Lafayette where he and his wife, Jennifer, are raising their two sons, Leland and Logan. All right, so we got through your bio. Mark, let’s start out with you and I want to hear about your background. How did you get into the space of real estate, property management, landlord coach, all of this. How did this all come about? Give us a little backstory. Mark: Sure. Well, I’d love to say it was a straight line trajectory, but you know there’s your plan and God’s plan, right? That doesn’t and usually don’t always match up. Jason: [...] and then there’s reality. Mark: Exactly. Jason: [...] winds. Always. Mark: Right. I’d always wanted to do something entrepreneurial. I didn’t know exactly what that was. I mean, this is back me being seven or eight years old, I started with a vegetable stand, the vegetable that I grew in Upstate New York and sold them at a vegetable stand that I built out of out of wood. So I always started back from there. My first go at real estate was when I was actually in the marine corps still and I bought 40 acres of property that was in Northern Arizona. I paid a couple of hundred bucks an acre for it and that was really it. It was just a desert in the middle of nowhere that no one seemed to want, but I knew at $200 an acre was a pretty good deal. I ended up buying it for capital appreciation at that point in time. But having a piece of land that doesn’t generate income doesn’t generate revenue. I learned pretty quickly is not the way to wealth. Getting someone else to pay for it was really what I wanted to do. I was getting near the end of my time in the marine corps. Had a great time, it was good for me in a lot of ways. It was tough, but I’m glad I did it. I also knew I needed to get an education. So, I got out. Now, let me just frame this because I went to school in Upstate New York and graduated 352nd out of 354. Let that sink in, everybody. I was at the bottom of the class. Jason: Right [...] the class by any means. Mark: Right. Not even close. The reason I’m saying that is because people who are out there think that they have to have this high-level of intelligence and high-level of intellect to make this business work. If you know anything and you’re doing real estate, it’s about the want to, it’s not about the intelligence. Let me just put that to bed right away. Now, that doesn’t give you an excuse to not go out and say, “Well, I need to learn things and therefore it’s just too hard.” There are lots of things are difficult. Walking when you were two years old was probably difficult. Or 18 months when learning how to talk was difficult at one point. It’s the same thing. You can learn this if you have the right intention. Anyway, getting out of the marine corps and getting into college was a little tricky because with my “stellar” high school career. I had to figure out how to how to do that. I hadn’t sat for an SAT. I had to learn in high school all that stuff. When I got out of the marine corps, I actually got accepted to Purdue. I got a high-enough score on my SAT. While I was at Purdue, I started buying some rental real estate. By the time I got out of Purdue, I had about a dozen rental units altogether, which is roughly half a million dollars for the real estate. That really how I got started and that’s really where my real estate education really got started. Jason: Right, so you cut your teeth on in the real world with your own real estate deals dealing with tenants, toilets, and termites, I’m sure. Fast forward to now. Help us understand. We’re going to be talking about the VIP paradigm: vision, infrastructure, and process the acronym. Let’s get into it. Mark: Sure. Before I get into that, it’s important to know that the rest of the story, as Paul Harvey might say. As I was getting out of college and I was buying more rental units, there’s lots of property managers out there who are also investors, so now I’m speaking to them as well. As I was growing this side of the portfolio, I was working as an accountant—I have a degree in accounting—for the Marriott. Wonderful, wonderful company. I learned an awful lot from the hospitality industry in terms of how to treat people, how to treat customers, and really treat my residents like I would be treating hotel guests. There’s a lot to learn out there from the hospitality industry in terms of what they do right. It’s just a different approach. It’s almost like the paradigm shift that happened with the banks maybe about 20 years ago. It used to be you run into the bank almost when you were in trouble. Now, you walk into a bank and everyone greets you, throws bottles of water at you, says hello and they give you this. That wasn’t always the way. The old school guys may remember that. Now, it’s a different paradigm because now they’re welcoming customers. They want you to come into the bank. They want you to have that transaction at their location. I would love to see that shift continue into the property management side because now it almost seems like the residents are the enemy rather than they’re the ones who pay the bills. As I continue to evolve and I loved what I learned from the hospitality industry, eventually I got to a point where I was able to get out and start to do that full-time just managing my own portfolio. Unfortunately, I got very, very overleveraged, not only in money but in time. What was happening is every time a task would come on, rather than looking for someone to hand that task to, I just took it on and kept it. There’s lots of property managers out there that are doing this. They’re not valuing their time highly enough. What ends up happening is they end up taking on this job, they don’t factor in opportunity cost where they’re going to take every job that’s out there and they’re going to do it. Even though they may be worth realistically $20–$50 an hour, they’re still doing $10 an hour jobs. In essence, every time they’re doing a $10 an hour job, they’re costing their business $40 an hour or $30 an hour and they don’t look at in that paradigm. Learning to fire yourself is one of the biggest things and I’m sure we can get in that little bit later, but really where my transition in the property management occurred was almost out of necessity. That seems to happen for a lot of people and certainly I was no exception. Going into 2009, I had about $6 million worth of real estate in my own portfolio. I was working 16–17 hours a day just trying to keep all the balls in the air. When the economy fell apart, that’s when things really, really got bad for me. Of course I started working 20 and 22 hour days and kept catching naps wherever I could. I was doing it all and I was doing it all very, very poorly. Finally, where the camel’s back broke was I got sick and I almost died in the hospital from double pneumonia. From all that, is really where I really got very intentional about setting up a business that was sustainable and I started delivering to my cash flow by doing some property management for other people. I got my broker’s license, started doing some property management on the side, and that’s really where I also got very, very intentional about how I want my business to look, the infrastructure that I needed it, and also the processes that needed to run on that infrastructure. That’s the vision infrastructure process paradigm that you’re alluding to earlier is you’re getting a vision where I wanted to go, setting up the proper infrastructure for it, and then putting the processes in place on top of that. Jason: I want to point this out because this is a milestone that I’m wondering if every entrepreneur eventually go through it. It’s like a crisis of health where we finally realize that we are not invincible, that it’s not sustainable to just do the hustle and grind that’s trumped up, and it made to look beautiful and exciting to just work, endless work weeks and crazy amounts of hours. Looking back, I had my own crisis like this. I remember I was literally at the end of a sales call laying on the floor because I had slipped a disk in my back or something because I wasn’t eating. I was just working, I thought I had to work harder and harder, I was just do-do-do, and then I couldn’t work for two weeks. I was laying on the floor and it was ridiculous. That gets really expensive trying to recover from that. 5That was when I had this shift and this epiphany came to me that our health and self-care is the foundation for my ability to provide, to do everything in the business, and you need to have a business that serves your needs and be sustainable instead of becoming this robot slave that is going to wear your body out on the business. Mark: Right To that point, you have to understand that we work so we can live, not the other way around. There’s so many people who are out there living to work and property managers, you get that one or two critical pieces, or one or two critical people that are doing 80%–90% of the work, and then you get everybody else who just shows up and cares or doesn’t care, whatever. I know it’s a typical 80/20 rule where you get 20% of people doing 80% of the work. In property management, it’s more like 1% doing 99% of the work. Then you got those critical pieces and you cannot build a sustainable business on that. Lots of property managers are very small. They’re under 500 units and they’re one- or two-man shops. In the property management company that I have, definitely is a weird hybrid between management company, maintenance company, but it works and it works really, really well. We can get into that later, but I agree with you. You have to almost get to that crisis. You either get to that crisis and you make a decision or you just have enough for you to just walk away. In either one, I don’t think is good. A lot of people get to that point because they don’t value their free time. That’s fundamentally it. They’re just not buying their time. Rob: Yup. Time is worth more than money to me now. If people approached it from that standpoint at the beginning, that’s why you hire somebody. You’re buying time. That’s why you build the business. You’re buying time. Every dollar I spend should be hopefully moving towards buying me some additional time or collapsing time. That’s why I get coaches. It collapses time. I’m buying time. I love what you’re saying. A lot of times, we start out building the business we can have instead of the business that we want, and they’re two very different things. One you’re serving and the other one serves us. Mark: That’s exactly right. There are two catch phrases I use all the time. One of those is, “There is no amount of money that will make time irrelevant.” When you get your head around that, then all of a sudden you say, “Okay.” The other phrase I use quite often, especially when I’m signing-off on a live event or something like that is, “Not only is there no amount of money that will make time irrelevant, but if you don’t place a value on your free time, someone else will.” Usually the amount of value that they’re going to place on your free time is far less than what you're worth, and they know it. That’s why they’re calling you with that, right? Jason: Yeah. The, “You got a minute?” and, “Hey, can I just take you out to lunch?” these kind of things. Mark: Absolutely right. That’s exactly right. Jason: You need to value your time. I don’t know how you tell people to value your time, but I usually say, “Take your gross revenue of the company if you’re the entrepreneur and divide that by 20-, 80-, or a 40-hour work week. That’s a pretty good estimate of what you should, at least, value your time as a dollar if you were looking at it on a dollar per hour basis.” Mark: Yeah, and if you did it on a 40-hour work week, you’d be surprised that most property managers I know are working way more than that. When you come back into it just from that simple math, that’s a perfect calculation. In fact, that’s exactly how I would tell people how to put just a rough number on your time. Or even people that are doing property management on the side. There’s lots of property managers are also estate brokers. They all have to be brokers, but they’re also doing real estate transactions on the side where they’re showing properties and they’re selling properties. That’s all revenue and that’s where you need to determine your opportunity cost. I would say all of your revenue that’s coming in, divide that by coming up with an hourly rate in terms of a 40-hour work week or even a 50-hour work week, to be fair. If you’re coming up with the $50–$60 an hour rate and you’re doing a $12 an hour work, you’ve got to replace yourself from doing that task as soon as you possibly can. I have a driver that I hire when I go to Indianapolis. I go to Indianapolis a couple of times a week and people are like, “Oh, you’re mister big time,” and I’m like, “No, it’s not about that. It’s not about because I feel super important. It’s because I get three hours of windshield time that literally is purposeless. I might listen on audio book. I still like to drive, but it’s not about that. It’s so I can get that time back.” So when I’m done at the end of the day, I’m not completely wiped out and spent. I don’t have to spend an extra three hours at the office that I should be spending with my wife, even if just sitting on the couch with her. Or just sitting at home being with her, or being around my kids, or just being home, where I want to be. There’s lots of people who don’t understand that and I’m like, “Okay, I pay this guy maybe $50, $75, $100 to drive me there and back. That’s easily worth it because my time is several hundred dollars an hour. Someone wants to call me and coach with me, I’m like, “Yeah, that's what I’m going to charge you,” so why would it cost myself that money driving? Sometimes, I still do because I want the solitude and I want to listen to an audio book and just enjoy it. Sometimes, I just want road time. But lots of times, if it’s purposeless, I really want to try to eliminate those bottlenecks as quickly as I possibly can, so I can stay focused on what I’m really trying to accomplish. Jason: Yeah. It’s funny. You’ll see entrepreneurs, they say they have $1 million business. Their time is probably worth about $480 an hour by that calculation, say $500 bucks an hour, and they’re still doing stuff like sometimes you’ll see them doing their yard. If they love doing those things, great, but sometimes we’ll be so focused on one area that we lose sight. For example, there was a time period where I hired a house manager and a nanny because all the fake dad stuff was being done. [...] care about laundry. They don’t care who makes the mills. They want time. So if I can offload those thing to somebody and I’m not paying them $500 an hour to offload those things, then I can spend time. Ultimately, were buying time and that’s a critical piece to growing and scaling business. Mark: Yes. That’s 100% vision. A lot of times, especially whether I’m working with an individual investor or I’m working with a property manager, door count is really where a lot of people say that and I stop them. I know. For example, I got the moniker, Landlord Coach, but my goal is to make people not landlords. If I was going to be a property management coach, my goal would not to make them better property managers. My goal for them is to be better business owners. Even though a lot of times they say, “Oh, all I want,” if it’s an investor, “are 100 units,” or if it’s a property manager, “I want 1000 doors.” I’m like, “Okay, so 999 wouldn’t do it?” and they go, “Well, yeah maybe.” “Okay 997 wouldn’t do it?” I’ll go down this until they finally get that, “Well, okay Mark, what’s your point?” I said, “Look, it’s not the number of doors. It’s really about...” Jason: It’s not an ego number, not an ego goal. Mark: Right. It’s not about that at all. It’s about what you are trying to accomplish in terms of your revenue goals. It’s really about that. If this is about ego, I respect that, but that’s not toward your vision. A lot of times they say, “Okay, well let’s get towards a vision that’s really actually purposeful and usually after I beat him up a little bit and I go, “Okay, 997. How about 995?” After they go, “Okay, what’s your point?” A lot of times I would say, “Okay, so in other words, you’re saying to me that you need to get to a revenue or you need to get to 1000 doors at, say, $1000 apiece. That’s what you need, but you couldn’t get there with 500 doors at $2000 apiece? Obviously the math is the same and a lot less work,” and they go, “Well, yeah. Okay.” “So, is it really about door count? Because I can get you 1000 doors. There are not going to be anything in the world that you or anybody else going to want to manage, but you really want 1000 doors?” Jason: [...] ridiculously low, that you can get a lot of doors really quickly. Mark: And that’s what a friend of mine did. He’s in the area of the state that I wouldn’t go to for love or money, and it’s terrible. I feel bad for him because I see him, watching him get into a leaky lifeboat in shark-infested waters, and I’m just like, “Oh, my God.” And he’s a good dude. He grew overnight from zero to, I don’t even know he’s pumping maybe 150–200 now, but they’re units that I wouldn’t take for any amount. I literally go, “Well, the rent amount isn’t enough to cover my management fees,” because they still wouldn’t be enough. Jason: Ultimately, people really need to ask themselves the question, “What do you really want? What do I really want out of the business?” If it’s an ego goal, great, but maybe what you really want is usually some lifestyle or maybe you want to have some amount of time, you want to spend time with your kids. What do you really want? And maybe you can create that and have that without having 1000 doors or without it having to look a certain way that you may have thought. [...] really matter? Why [...] matter? Mark: Right. It’s really not about door count as much as people want to focus on that now to a certain degree. It depends on your business structure. Again, investors are a little bit different than property managers. In my case, we do a lot of our own maintenance. We have an in-house maintenance department. A significant amount of revenues come in from that. Having more doors enables us to have more opportunities to maintenance. So in that particular case, it does really matter, but we still want to manage higher-end properties. We don’t do a lot of low-end stuff anymore just because of the amount of banging your head against around. It just increases exponentially when you get a certain lower market. It’s just not a market that we want to court anymore. We got out of that probably maybe six years ago and never looked back. The level of drama that has decreased in my life has just been exponential. Not saying that’s bad. There’s other people who want to court that market and do well in that market. That’s certainly fine if that’s a strategy that’s working for you. I’m not telling you about to change it. But for me, I would really invite you to really focus on not even so much as a revenue goal, because then the revenue goal, it’s funny because people go, “Well, yeah. I would like to have $50,000 a month coming in free cash flow, Mike.” And then, I go back to my normal argument and go, “Well, okay. So you want $50,000 a month coming in. $49,990 won’t do it?” So, you have to tie it to a life output goal. That’s why I say to them, “What is this even about? What are you trying to accomplish?” When they say, “Well, okay. What I’m really trying to do,” and usually it’s after they start to fight back some tears, “honestly I just want to spend more time with my kids.” “Okay, does more time mean?” “Honestly, I would love to be able to homeschool them.” “Awesome. Now we’re getting to a vision that really frigging matters. Not some nebulous 1000 doors, or $50,000 a month, or whatever it is. That’s what you want and we can tie a number to that. We can tie a revenue number to that.” Or, “I want to move my aging mother into a house that’s just close by.” “Okay, what’s it going to take to buy your mom a house? Do you even need to buy it? Can you rent one? The next 10 years, your mom’s 80 now. Is she going to live another 10 years or you can budget 10 years worth of rent payments for that sort of thing?” Whatever that is, you can actually get a quantifiable life output goal that’s tied to that and that’s really what vision really needs to be. It needs to come from the limbic system of our brain. The problem with the limbic system is it doesn’t have a capacity for language. It can’t explain why you love your wife. It can’t explain why you love your grandmother. We come up with platitudes like, “Well, she bakes me cookies,” but that’s a thing. You just say, “I don’t know. It’s just the way she makes me feel,” and you get teary-eyed. That’s the limbic system activating your brain and that’s how when you get to that point of your vision and you start to think that way, feel that when you get the goose bumps on your on your arms, that’s when you’re close. And that’s when you know you’re starting to get to a vision that really, really matters. Jason: I like it. I like it a lot. You touched on a couple things. Some of the concepts that I share is the cycle suck. It’s like if you take on bad owners, you’ll have bad tenants or bad properties. If you have bad properties, you get bad tenants. If you get bad tenants, then you all have a bad reputation, and then you’ll attract more bad owners. By taking up on the crappy properties, you end up caught in property management hell, the cycle of suck. Another concept that resonates with what you’re talking about that I the shares the four Ds to revenue. It’s not just about doors. The four Ds, the first one could be doors, but the next one is how many deals. Deals is usually what I share first. You get number of deals you get in, how many doors per deal? It’s not just about the doors. One deal being worth one door, that’s the ratio, then you don’t have as much leverage. It’s not as easy, but if on average your deals have two doors, you double your revenue. It’s these four numbers that multiply. Then, you’ve got duration. How long can you keep the door on? A 1-year accidental investor versus a 10-year buy and hold, in your property management business there’s 10 times difference. That’s pretty significant. Then, there’s dollars. It’s just what your fee structure is like. Are your fees good? It’s not just about doors. There’s all these other variables that can create that. I love shifting it towards the life goal because the life goal is what really matters. I would imagine you found this with coaching clients. Sometimes the life goal and all the stuff they had trumped up in their mind, or built up, or that they felt they needed in order to have the life that they want, sometimes you can just jump right to life goal. You can just create that like, “I want to spend an extra hour with my kids.” “Okay, block out an extra hour,” and they’re like, “Oh, I didn’t think I could do that.” Sometimes it’s really that simple. We can just jump right to the life goal and the business will still be there and it will still function. Mark: Yup, that is true. One of the things I talk about in The Time-Wealthy Investor 2.0 is really about making that decision. A buddy of mine who’s got multiple units is just nauseatingly wealthy in terms of real estate. He’s a great guy and said to me, “You know? I read your book the other day.” He’s a guy who doesn’t read and he’s such a snarky friend. His name is Randy and he says, “I would never admit this to your face, but I feel I have to,” he goes, “I really got a lot out of that book.” I was like, “Okay. What’s the punchline?” He’s like, “No, there’s really no punchline. I feel I am time-wealthy,” he goes, “and funny, I could probably retire based on the life output that I want to define right now.” He’s like, “Really, time-wealth is really more of a decision that it is a destination.” I was like, “Yeah, it really is because right now I have all the time-weath that I want. I work about maybe two hours a week. Sometimes I’m working more, like right now, I’m pitching in more in the office just because we’re down a person,” but it gets me re-engage in the business and it makes me go, “Hey guys, why are we doing it this way?” and then they go, “Oh, because this this and this.” I’m like, “Okay, cool,” and I let them define the process. If they’re the ones that normally work the process, my job is really to come in, look and see what maybe needs tinkering with, maybe new or adjusting, giving them coaching, that’s the sort of thing. Working 2 hours a week, sometimes 4–5 hours a month in the property management business, but I have all this time-wealth to do other things like coaching, writing books, and things that I really, really enjoy. It really is just a decision. When you hire good people, you bring them in, you set up a solid infrastructure for your business, set up solid processes, and you let them run it. Stay the hell out of the way. When I’m coaching property managers, that’s where I see a lot of problems. They don’t have an established vision for themselves, they don’t have proper infrastructure, they’re trying to run on really lean infrastructure or none at all, so the process has to pick it up. What I’m talking about infrastructure, say property management software, or website, or things like that, when you have a weak infrastructure, it has to be picked up by a stronger process, which means people. A person has to pick up that extra process. Let’s just go from the really sublime to ridiculous level. Say you don’t have property management software. You’re running everything on Excel spreadsheets. That’s the extreme, but there are property managers out there doing that, so that means they have to have a lot of people managing that poor infrastructure. Here’s the thing. Here’s the one thing I hear all the time is that, “Oh, my property manager doesn’t communicate. They don’t communicate with me. They don’t tell me.” When you have bad communication, that is a symptom of the problem, not the problem. Let me say that again. When you have bad communication, that’s a symptom of the problem, not the problem. The problem is you have bad infrastructure, you have bad process. That’s where communication issues are going to show up. Let’s just use a very obscure example. We’ve all been to a restaurant where you had bad service. You’re sitting down and you can see that that waiter has nine tables and that waiter has one table. You’re trying to communicate to someone to take your order. You can see the problem because you’re sitting on the outside. You can see the problem, but you’re going, “Well, that waiter’s got nine tables, that one’s got one. Why isn’t the manager stepping in?” Bad process. “Why does that person have nine tables?” That’s bad infrastructure. That never should have happened that way. That’s just one very obscure example. Let me use another quick example here real fast. Have you ever walked up to a McDonald’s at a truck stop, where there’s basically four cashiers ready to take your order. You walk up, you look left and right, and everybody’s standing back away from the registers. the customers. You’re trying to figure out who’s next in line. You’re like, “Can I go? Are you next?” Because there’s no infrastructure, the customers have to decide who’s next in line. What’s a simple piece of infrastructure that you could put in place to manage that? Well, a simple queue, a simple rope line. That’s a piece of infrastructure that you could put in place that would manage the customer flow. Then, you don’t have to worry about that. Another example would be a bad process. Let’s pretend you go back to the same McDonald’s. This time it’s really busy and the customers are four and five deep at each line at each of the four registers. This time what ends up happening is you get a manager that opens the fifth register and says, “I can help the next person.” Then, you get somebody who goes from the bend of one line and then jumps in front of everybody else. Now you just base and created a brawl. It’s this mad rush towards this fifth line. That’s a process problem. What should have happened is, “Hey, I’m the assistant manager. I’m going to have you open that line over there but I’m going to direct some people over there. I’m going to go out to the crowd and direct some people over there first before you say anything.” Then you can manage the process. That’s process. That’s a broken process when they do it the other way. That’s why I’m saying infrastructure and process shows up in bad communication all the time. This means they’re not communicating work orders when they come in. They’re not communicating when a resident doesn’t pay rent. Owners need to know that. They need to know if they’re expecting the revenue to come in on a certain month and they don’t get communicated that. “Oh, by the way, the resident never paid rent,” and, “Oh, yeah. By the way, we’re going to go ahead and evict them.” They need to know these things and when you don’t have an infrastructure or a process in place to let them know that, that’s when communication falls. That’s when the bad communication issue show up. Jason: Yeah, it’s interesting. It’s really tempting for entrepreneurs to start blaming their team. This is like early entrepreneurs that they’re transitioning away from being a solopreneur, that having a team, they usually build the team around them as if they’re just the solopreneur still, and they try to micromanage them. They’re always complaining about the communication. They’re always complaining about people not doing things, “Why can’t they just do what I tell them?” and that sort of thing. I like what you’re saying is they have bad infrastructure and bad process. Things are not defined, there isn’t clarity, and that leads to challenges in communication. [...] built into the process. They can be part of the process. [...] you need the right tools to facilitate communication. I run a virtual company. If we didn’t have the tools that facilitate communication, there wouldn’t be any. We’re in different states, some of us different countries. Mark: That’s exactly right and they need to think about their business, about the product that they produce. I used somewhat as a nebulous example, but the product that they need to produce should be consistency. That’s the product that they need to be shooting for. When consistency is your product, the only competitor you’re going to have a sloppiness. When consistency is your product, sloppiness is your only competition. That’s the thing that is really hard for me to convey to lots of managers because we’ve got all sorts of products. We sell properties. We buy properties. We do all these different things. I don’t care what you’re doing. I don’t care if you’re making razor blades. You need to have a consistent product and I will not allow us to do anything in the business unless we can do it consistently. If they come to me and say, “Hey, you know what we should do? We should send out birthday cards to all of our residents.” “Okay, great. How are you going to do that consistently? And you need to tell me. Who’s going to manage it? Who’s going to do it? What’s the negative feedback loop if that doesn’t happen?” Let me talk about negative feedback loop for second. You put something in place, it’s like I send you an email expecting you to do something. What’s the negative feedback loop I’m going to put in place if that doesn’t happen? I’m not talking a negative feedback loop like someone complains, which is often what happens if something doesn’t get done. You go, “Oh, man. I don’t know. I sent that email off two weeks ago. I forgot about it. I just assume that they would do it.” What’s the negative feedback that you’re going to put in place to make sure it actually gets done? Are you going to list that [...]? Are you going to put a task? Are you’re going to put something in some task management software? What’s the negative feedback loop that you’re going to have to make sure that stuff gets done? That’s all part of process. Let me just boil this down into an example because I keep saying vision, infrastructure, and process. Think of vision as your map. Infrastructure would be the train tracks, and then the process should be the train that runs on those tracks that all stays in alignment with your vision for the future. Now, for property managers, they’re saying, “Well, why would my employees care about my vision?” They’re not going to care about your vision. They’re only going to work so hard, but they’re not going to work that hard to put a boat in your driveway, or a pool in your backyard. This is an extra step to goes in with property managers is once you have that vision for your future, then you go into developing core values for your business. The core values are just the things that you value. You may value justice, You may value efficiency, you may value lots of different things that are core to you, but now you get to identify what those things are and that becomes your compass for all decisions that you’re making. Once you have those core values defined, if you’re making improvement, you say, “Okay, is this in line with my core values?” If I’m going to make a hiring decision or a firing decision, are they acting in line with my core values? When I do my employee evaluations, I’m going to say, “Hey, when you did this, this was really in alignment with our core values and I really like what you did,” or, “Hey, when you did this, I was really upset because it wasn’t in line with our core values. I’m [...] say you. I’m just upset that your behavior because this isn’t in alignment with our core values.” One of the things I’ll coach them through, some are three, four, five, no more than six. A lot of people sometimes want to get, “Oh, we value all the stuff,” but usually it’s something that’s inherent to them as an individual and they value these things. They value justice, they value equity, they value fairness, and they can value profitability. There’s nothing wrong with that. It doesn’t mean you’re a bad person because we all need profits to grow, get better, and be a better company. Once you get those core values defined, then it’s easier to put infrastructure and process improvements in place. The infrastructure of the things I’m talking about there are websites, software, even the desks and chairs in your office. The process pieces are really about how you operate. It’s the rules of how much you operate, it’s your SRP, it’s your FAQs. Those things that really helped define how things are done in your office based on it that infrastructure that you have in place. Jason: A lot of alignment between what you’re doing and what I do with clients as well. I mean, 3–4 core values for their business, you’re helping them figure out their purpose, their why as a business owner. These things sound like woo woo and fluff to a lot of people until they implement them. Then, they’re usually pretty astounded because, like I tell my clients, “You’re the sun at the center of the solar system. If you don’t like what’s going on inside the solar system, you change the sun, everything changes.” Usually as business owners, we try to externalize everything and tackle everything farthest away from ourselves. If we work on ourselves. everything changes by default. Mark: That’s so good. I love that. That is so true. Jason: So, we talked about vision, we talked about the infrastructure, we talked about the process. Is there anything else that you want to touch on while we’re hanging out here? Mark: Yeah. I see a lot of people out there that are just working themselves. They’ve created a job for themselves and they’re not ever trying to transition themselves out. They think that there’s no end in sight. Jason: They’ve succumbed. They [...] to their fate. Mark: Yeah. I’m not saying I’m the coach for everybody and you would probably say the same thing, that you’re not the coach for everybody, but for God’s sake, get a coach. Get somebody that can help you get to where you want to go so much faster. Yeah, it’s great being your own boss because you didn’t want to be held accountable to anybody. But now you’re not accountable to anybody, know your life sucks. It didn’t turn out the way you want it. If you’re living the dream, your life is great, and you have everything that you want, that’s great. I don’t know that I can help you get much better, but get somebody to help you. We talked earlier about each of us having coaches. I spend a lot of money each month on coaches to help me in areas where I have blind spots and just to challenge me, just to say, “Hey, Mark. You said you were going to do XYZ by a certain period of time. That’s not done, so now what?” They already know how they’re going to hold me accountable and I pay a fair sum to these people, so it hurts when I show up. I know I’m going to be ready when the bell rings. It’s not about paying them the money just for the sake of paying them the money so that they can call and yell at me. They are a softer touch, but the thing is, I want to make sure that I’m being held accountable because we don’t have anybody that’s holding us accountable. That’s the danger of being an entrepreneur. I would really encourage people to look at that. It doesn’t necessarily need to be real estate-focused although it probably would make more sense. I have one that helps me in sales. I have one that helps me in marketing. I have one that helps me as a national speaker. I go and I speak at a lot of different places, so I have one that help coach me in that. And of course different masterminds of things like. I would really, highly encourage people that if they are looking or just flirting with the idea, get somebody. I am going to say this. The difference between a coach and a mentor, I would say a mentor is probably someone that you’re not paying, probably a friend. They are not going to hold you accountable to the level that you need. I say that this is someone you need to pay, it needs to hurt a little bit, and you need to have some skin in the game. You really need to be committed and you really need to be paying somebody to do that. Like I said, it doesn’t need to be me, it doesn’t need to be you. I’m just saying it’s someone they knew paying someone. Jason: Yeah. There’s some magic I’ve noticed, just psychologically, that happens in shifts inside of my clients or that shifts inside of myself when I am paying a coach and I’m investing in myself. It just shifts psychologically how we value ourselves and energetically it allows us to convince others to invest in us as well. It’s a hard sell to go out even as a property management business owner and if you’re doing the sales in your company, you’re the BDM and say, “Hey, you should spend money with us. You should invest. You should have us manage your rental property,” but I don’t even invest in myself. I don’t care enough about myself or my business to invest in that. I’m just trying to make money, then you’re going to ask others to invest in you. Psychologically, when you invest in yourself, I’ve noticed revenue goes up for me, lifestyle shifts. There’s something that happens energetically and psychologically when you are subconsciously investing in yourself. It shifts things. I love what you’re saying, everybody really deserves to have a coach, they deserve to be working with consultants, they deserve to have people above them. If you’re at the top of the org chart, there’s a problem. There’s a problem because everybody below in the org chart is hopefully being fed, getting some input, growing, and evolving, but if you’re at the top of the org chart and there’s nobody above you, it’s a scary place to be. [...] The Emperor With No Clothes, unless you get some input, unless you get somebody that you can place above you in that org chart like a coach, or mentor, or something that will feed you. Mark: I look at it exactly the way you’re looking at it except I flip your chart upside down. I look at those people as the direct supports for everybody above them because they’re carrying the weight of everybody above them. If you get somebody that’s not doing what they’re supposed to be doing—they’re coming in late, they’re wiggling around at the top, and you’re trying the keep the org chart balanced—it’s tough. Maybe it’s so far up that you can’t see what’s going on up there, but you have a coach that can stand back and go, “Yeah, that guy’s playing Galaga on his computer and you don’t even see it,” because you don’t want to see it or you just can’t see it. That’s where it gets tricky and a lot of times, you get too close to the problem and you can’t see it. It’s like you sitting back watching the waiter who’s got nine tables. You can see the problem instantly. Jason: [...] you can’t sometimes. They’re too close to the fire, they’re dealing with what they’re dealing with right at that moment, that’s us as entrepreneurs all the time. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had a coach, I’ve sat down with coach or talk to one of my coaches and said, “Hey, here’s what I’m dealing with,” and they point, they say something to me, and I feel really stupid, then I say back to them, “That’s exactly what I would’ve told one of my clients.” We’re just too close to the fire. We don’t have somebody outside of ourselves because we are the one that created the problem. We’re at the helm. We are the problem. We are the biggest bottleneck in our company. We are the one holding everything back. We’re the one preventing growth. Us trying to solve the problem on our own is like trying to look at the back of our own head. Mark: Yeah. It’s like trying to put sunscreen on your own back and that’s the thing. If you don’t see yourself as part of the problem, you cannot see yourself as part of the solution. A lot of times when it’s educating them to say, “Look, your company has a very real culture problem. That one is not respectful, that one is treating customers anyway that they want. As a result, they’re treating each other very poorly and blah-blah-blah.” That’s because when you got ill-defined core values, you’re going to run into that. You’re going to run into culture problems. There’s a client that I really didn’t feel like I could help him as much as I wanted to, but he had a real culture problem is at his office. He didn’t really see it until he started letting some people go that were really some of the major problems. He had a live event that we don’t work together anymore, but I’d love to get him back on just to say, “Hey, how are you doing? How did things evolve for you in terms of getting those core values more well-defined?” and really start holding people accountable to them. One of the things that I do is we have an 8:07 meeting every day. The reason it’s 8:07 is people are rarely late to a meeting that’s got an oddball time to it. They always get there early. There’s not much I don’t do without purpose, but every meeting, we pick one of our five core values and we review it. They’re hearing these core values every single day. That way at their 90-day evaluation, guess what they get to roll over again? Guess what they’re hearing again? Our core values. They’re getting graded against those core values. It’s not just a shock like, “Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah. I never heard that core value before.” These are things that need to be repeated over and over. Jason: Yeah. I think we run our businesses probably somewhat similar [...]. Everything gravitates towards truth. We do our daily huddle at 8:45 every morning. I always have appointments starting at 9:00, so it has to be short and that allows our team to see each other because we’re virtual, but yeah, it’s an oddball time which does work, to make sure people show up. Mark: Absolutely. Jason: Cool. Mark, it’s really great to connect with you, to get [...]. How can people get in touch with you? Now, I want to point out like we were talking before the show, your area of genius, what you really can help probably our listeners with, is on the delivery, the fulfillment side, building out this portion of their business where they may be struggling, especially those that are graduating maybe from solopreneur to trying to build a team. That’s where they’re getting the systems and processes. They’re not the guy doing every single thing or the gal doing every single thing anymore and that’s a painful transition. How can people get in touch with the Mark and Landlord Coach? Mark: My website’s landlordcoach.com. I’m on Facebook @mylandlordcoach. You can find me easily. You can see the moniker in the back. I think where you and I differ is that I helped create capacity in the world. I helped create white space on our calendar. What they do with that white space is up to them. If they want to use that white space to grow their company from 300 doors to 800 doors, that’s fine. I don’t help them with the growth side. I just help them create capacity on their calendar, help create white space, so they can do whatever they want. Now, some people go, “Yeah. I’m happy with the white space and I’m making enough money now and I’ve gotten time on my calendar. I’m cool. I got everything I want.” Some people get to that point in their like, “No, we’re ready to grow.” I’m not the growth guy. It’s not what I do. I’m not from that piece of it. I [...] turn it over to someone you and say, “Now that you got this increased capacity, that’s the person that’s going to help you take your business from 1000 doors to 2000 or whatever.” That that’s not what I do. What I do is I help them create capacity on the calendar. To that aspect I just want to make sure I delineate myself there because I do work with a lot of individual investors. I also work with property managers and just helping them get their life back. That’s one of the biggest things that I do. Jason: Love it. Mark, I appreciate you being on the show. Thanks for being here. Mark: This has been great. Thanks so much and my best wishes to all your listeners. Jason: Thank you. All right, we’ll let Mark go. If you enjoyed the show, be sure to like and subscribe on whichever channel we’re on. We’re on YouTube, we are no iTunes, and make sure that you subscribe to our email newsletter. If you are property management entrepreneur that’s wanting to grow your business, add doors, and increase your revenue, then please reach out to us over at DoorGrow. We’d be happy to have a conversation and see if you are a good fit for what we might be able to do for you. Of course, check out Mark and his business over at Landlord Coach. That’s it for today. Until next time, to our mutual growth, everyone. Bye. You just listened to the DoorGrow Show. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet, in the DoorGrow Club. Join your fellow DoorGrow hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead, content, social, direct mail, and they still struggle to grow. At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today’s episode on our blog at doorgrow.com. To get notified of future events and news, subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow hacking your business and your life.

Freedom of time, money, relationships, and purpose is what we all want. Property managers, realtors, and investors help clients build wealth through real estate.  Today, I am talking to Steve Welty, owner of Good Life Property Management business and podcast. He enjoys meeting amazing people and indoctrinating listeners with his philosophies.  You’ll Learn... [03:23] Stop whining about solvable issues, such as online reviews to get warm leads.  [04:41] Steve surfs to success with Good Life Property Management.  [06:43] Podcast Passion Project: Do content for content's sake; add value to people's lives for opportunities and connections to come your way. [10:19] Don’t lose focus on why and what fires you up; limit time and effort spent on your business to achieve outcomes. [15:00] Purpose of Business: Not to make money; build a business that makes money.  [16:25] How to be happy: Create momentum for other people to gain momentum. If you wish to become great, learn to become the servant of many. [18:12] Zig when they Zag: Success outside outsource sandbox to reduce costs.  [18:55] Results-based Biz: Hire young, smart, motivated people and leave them alone.  [19:31] Big Issues, Big Success: More people can lead to more problems; paint a compelling vision to keep good people and let them do what they want to do.  [20:10] Move Out and Outwork Others: Create freedom of time and money by hiring CFO or profit first coach/accountant to offer advice, not control over finances.  [26:10] Value-add Revenue Sources: If you don't charge for it, you're doing it poorly.  [28:25] Opportunities in Other States/Markets: Pop-up shops to buy cash flow property.  [29:05] To Die List and Time Study: Procrastination problem property managers and owners experience.  [35:00] Barriers/Protections: Teach team and customers how to treat and reach you.  [37:35] Opinions vs. Observations: Co-creation/coaching is transformational and transactional superpower that changes lives.  [46:45] Give up control and allow people to fail, or you create an unsafe business.  [52:30] What Matters: Million ways to get to end results and outcomes.  [54:05] Hire and Fire: Center on core values; be reliable, positive, and go-giver (RPG). [57:10] Epiphany: Everything worthwhile lives on the other side of fear.  [1:03:05] Money is one side of it. Easiest decision to make is to be a different person.  Tweetables Do content for content's sake. Limit time in your business; achieve outcomes with least amount of effort. Add limitations or constraints to create a necessity for innovation. First key to greater time, money, and purpose is to create space for yourself. Resources Steve Welty’s Email Good Life Property Management Good Life Property Management Podcast Steve Welty on Spotify Steve Welty on Apple PM Grow Orange Tree Property Management GatherKudos National Association of Residential Property Managers (NARPM) Brad Larson Gary Vaynerchuk The 4-hour Workweek by Tim Ferriss Todd Breen Making Money is Killing Your Business by Chuck Blakeman How I Built This with Guy Raz Let My People Go Surfing by Yvon Chouinard  Voxer Jason Goldberg (Strategic Coach) Extreme Ownership Book E-Myth Book The Go-Giver  KingJasonHull’s Whimple on SoundCloud DoorGrowClub Facebook Group DoorGrowLive DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrow Website Score Quiz Transcript Jason: Welcome DoorGrow Hackers to the DoorGrow Show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you are interested in growing your business and life, and you're open to doing things a little bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow hacker. DoorGrow hackers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it, you think they're crazy for not, because you realize that property management is the ultimate high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships, and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management businesses and their owners, we want to change the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull. The founder and CEO of DoorGrow. Now, let's get into the show. Today's guest, I’m really excited, we’re hanging out with Steve Welty. Steve, welcome to the DoorGrow show. Steve: What’s up Jason? Good to be here. Jason: Steve and I were reminiscing. I saw Steve at a broker owner conference, the very first one I went to several years ago and we were sitting at the same table and I guess I said hi to you and we were chatting it up. Steve: Yeah. It's funny, I remember that day very vividly and it's interesting because I have a very poor memory. You were the mysterious man behind me and you were dressed really nice. Jason: I don't dress nice anymore. I'm too lazy now. Steve: Yeah, you're just soaking it all, but we were talking before the show, was that really one of your first conferences? Jason: That was the first conference I'd gone to, yeah. My dad had just started property management business. He's got maybe about 200 doors now, but he had just started a property management business. He had been a hospital administrator for 30 years or something and he said, “I'm going to do what Bryan’s doing and start a property management business.” My brother has got maybe 1000 doors or something like that and he is out of Orange County. Not too far from you down San Diego. He thought, “Bryan’s doing it, maybe I could do this too.” He decided to become an entrepreneur. Caught the bug. It's been fun to watch that, but I was like, “Dad, let's go do this. I want to see what happens there. The only way I can go is if I'm with you, you're a broker owner.” I was his director of marketing and I was just the fly on the wall for Orange Tree Property Management, just checking out what goes on a broker owner. I just want to see what happened there. It was challenging for me though because the entire time I'm hearing people talk about problems, and challenges, and I'm just biting my tongue the whole time. I’m like, “I could solve that challenge. I can help with that.” I just had to sit there and be quiet. I've even got a text message from one of my clients that was sitting in the room and he said, “I'll bet this is just killing you right now,” I texted him back, “You have no idea.” It was just really funny to hear people whining about stuff that I think is solvable. Steve: What was something out of all those issues you're biting your tongue about that you can reflect on today. Jason: Now you’re interviewing me. Steve: I'm interested to hear that. Jason: I remember one of the things that really killed me was people were like, “How do you deal with your online reviews? How do you get more positive online reviews?” We have our system GatherKudos, and we have coaching material around that that we’d go through with clients to figure out how to identify peak happiness, leverage a lot of reciprocity, how to get more reviews, how to build a system in your business as part of your onboarding process with new tenants so you get more reviews. I think that's a better system to have than even most marketing systems, because that creates warm leads. I was just sitting there listening to them talk and some of the ideas were, “We're okay, we're good,” but I was like, “This is so solvable.” Steve: Reviews are still a big issue, six years later or whatever it is. Jason: Correct. Steve: People still can’t figure it out. It’s tough. I still try to figure it out on a daily basis. Jason. Yeah. Cool. Steve, you've got an awesome property management business. You've got your own podcast that you do. You've got a lot of stuff going on. Help my audience understand who you are and give us a little bit of background on Steve, your adventures in property management, and how you got into it. Steve: For sure. I graduated from San Diego State 2005 and stayed in construction for a little while. I was working with constructions in college, just bumming around, surfing, and doing whatever I was doing. Got my real estate license finally and did some deals 2006-2007. I hear a lot of stories like this, it’s like 2006-2007 sales, all of our sales, we should start a Facebook group for sales guys that flamed out, well I think it is, it’s probably called than NARPM of Facebook group. It seemed like everyone has that story. I made some nice checks in sales and I thought I was great, and then I became broke very fast. I was 26-27 and I was broke. I was applying for any job that I could get and I went to work for a French entrepreneur in Carlsbad as a personal assistant. He wanted someone to manage his property manager that had a real estate license because he didn't trust his property manager. Jason: Okay, so you were the spy that was going to monitor whether he was doing his job or not. Steve: Yeah, most managers hate it when the owner micromanages you. Imagine a realtor micromanaging you. I was like, “Yeah, I can do that,” I never managed anything in my life, but I figured it out and worked with him. He actually taught me some great business lessons looking back, but two years in, it was very stressful working for him. He was not the nicest guy, but he did teach me a lot and then I went out on my own with a business partner at the time. We decided, “Hey, let's start our own management company and just got it enough off the ground to allow me to quit my job, be on property management with my partner I think in 2008. We grew that until about 2012 and then we decided to part ways. I started Good Life in 2013 and then been doing Good Life ever since. I started the Good Life Property Management podcast which has nothing to do with clients, nothing to do with getting new customers. It was really a passion project and something I learned out of that was that I encourage people to do content for content's sake if their heart tells them to do that. A lot of times we try to figure out, “Well, how am I going to monetize that?” I remember when I asked Brad Larson, I think he was one of the first people to do a podcast that was a property manager. I was like, “What are you doing this for?” and he was like, “Oh, it's fun,” I was like, “It didn’t make any sense, you're wasting time.” When you add value, like Gary V—a lot of people have really put this in the forefront—when you add value to people's lives, opportunities come your way, connections come your way. I have so much fun doing the Good Life Property Management podcast and we serve the same community you serve which is property management entrepreneurs. I don't run ads. I have ran ads in the past, but I don't anymore. I don't necessarily get anything out of it other than just meeting cool people and getting to indoctrinate my listeners with my philosophies which are really along the same lines in a lot of ways as you, Jason. I really resonate with your manifesto in a lot of ways, so that's cool. That's it. I'm big into music. I do a lot of music. Steve Welty, I’m on Spotify and Apple, and that's my passion. I'm going more and more into that. Also, we have tried mastermind for property management entrepreneurs to max out their business and life. That's what's up for me. Jason: Cool stuff. I think we have a lot in common. Not only are we both California guys. A lot of people listening may not know this, but I had a band in college. I wrote all the music, I played guitar. I didn’t know I was an entrepreneur then. I didn't know that was in my blood, but I was the guy going door-to-door with a guitar and a clipboard pre selling CDs at girl’s dorms that I could fund to self-produce an album, and I was playing music. Steve: That’s [...]. Jason: I know, it was pretty crazy. The album is on SoundCloud if people are searching for it. Steve: Let’s check it out, what’s it called, how can we find it? Jason: My username on SoundCloud is my username everywhere, which is KingJasonHull, and the album is called Whimple, that was the name of my band. Steve: I love it. I think you told me that a while back, but I forgot, but I'm really fascinated with that because that was my story, too. I was a songwriter. That was hustle. I give you street credit like going dorm-to-dorm, playing for chicks, that's pretty cool. I thought I was going to be a rock star. That was my deal, but it's so funny looking back. I didn’t even practice. I just thought I have the natural talent and I used to drink a lot so I was probably delusional. I had this moment, this crossroads where I was like, “Okay, you're not going make it,” I'm not going to be okay being older and broke, so I'm going to go on a business route. I just gave up music completely, and then I was in a strategic coach workshop. I have given it up five or six years and I met this entrepreneur. I was telling him about my story. I was like, “I don't really play music anymore,” and he's like, “Oh, that sucks.” I’m like, “Yeah, it does suck.” Then he’s like, “Well, you have a guitar in your office don’t you?” and I was like, “No.” He’s like, “Well you’re the boss, aren’t you?” Jason: I can see it right behind you. Steve: Yeah, right now I do it. He’s like, “You’re the boss.” I’m like, “Yeah.” He’s like, “Well, why don’t you try this, try just putting a guitar in your office. Just make a commitment to picking it up once a day even if it's for one second.” It really resonated with me because I had given up a part of myself that was really important because I think a lot of time as business owners, we just get so focused on like, “We got to make this company work,” and we’d lose focus of why and what fires us up on an internal level. I did that and that about two years ago, fast forward to today, I'm putting many hours a day into music, into song writing, into recording, into building my audience and it's helped my business so much because when you limit the amount of time that you're in your business, you can only do the things that you're really good at and so that's what I'm really passionate about, is figuring out how can I achieve an outcome with the least amount of effort possible. Jason: Yeah, because when we add limitation or constraint, it creates the byproduct of limitation or creating a constraint is it creates a necessity for innovation. If you have unlimited amounts of time, unlimited amounts of money, unlimited whatever, there's no innovation because it's so easy to be lazy. It's so easy to just let things unfold in a different way, but when we have some time constraints or we have some financial constraints, we have to get creative and that's where the genius starts to come out, that's where new ideas start to come out. I've noticed that even with team members, if I say “I need this done by this time,” they get creative or if I need this done under this budget, they get creative, then they start to innovate. If I say, “Yeah, do it whenever, take as much time as you want, spend as much money as you want,” there's no innovation. They're just going to go towards whatever seems easiest, which is the status quo. Steve: Yeah, you nailed it. I've been really interested in constraints. I had a son, my first child, he’s six months old, Myles, and I was encouraged by a friend of mine. He said “Take 30 days off, Steve,” he's like “It'll be the best thing you ever did for your business. Don't check in, don't do anything. Take 30 days off. Be with your son.” It was in December, so it was like the perfect time and so I did that, and man he was right. It really levelled up my business, my team got way better. They were already good, but just putting these things into place that force you to grow. That 30 days off was huge. Next year I'm planning a 60-day trip to another country that I’m really passionate about using that. I even got my operations manager. He doesn't work out of the office anymore. I moved out of my office a long time ago because when you're in the office, you are often the bottleneck for your company and everyone comes to you for the answers and the solutions. I really grabbed on to that concept and constantly looking for new ways to use constraints to my advantage. Jason: I love it. It's been awhile since I've told the client to do this, but a lot of clients will ask questions like, “How do I become a business owner instead of my own best employee?” I would tell them, “You just start doing it. You take a vacation.” If you schedule a week-long vacation, if you're not taking vacations, for those listening, you schedule week long vacation and you can't take off a week, you're going to have to figure out how to make everything not fall apart for that week. To go 30 days, that's incredible, 60 days is ridiculous, that's pretty awesome. At that point, you've arrived as owner of the company instead of being your own best employee. I noticed when I would take off time or vacation, I would be surprised by how my team would step up. I'd be surprised by the things leading up to that vacation, more would get done than would get done sometimes in months. There are so many little things that you need to get dialed in. “Oh my gosh, they’re going to be gone for a week. How are we going to live without Jason? We got to get this.” My team would say, “Hey Jason, I need this,” or, “I need to access to this,” or, “I need to know how to do this.” Suddenly everybody's rallying around this idea of taking some stuff off your plate because they need to be able to make sure things don't break and it creates the possibility for you to do that more or forever. Steve: Yeah, and I think its baby steps. I remember when I first read the four-hour work week. I thought Tim Ferriss was a god. I was like, that makes no sense. Jason: Did you almost move to Thailand? Steve: Close, but no, it was just really interesting. I guess from a personal level, having time was even more appealing than being a billionaire I guess to me personally. When I see people like Todd Breen and other people talk at NARPM that would talk about running your business from the beach or not is just very appealing to me. I wanted to grow a self-managing company and it was baby steps. There's this book called Making Money is Killing Your Business and they say it really why. It says the purpose of the business is not to make money, it's to build a business that makes money, like time and money equals wealth. Your business should throw off time and money. Now, if you want to then use that extra time to just pour more time in your business, doesn't mean you got to go live on a beach. You could do other adventures. For me, what's really worked and what I'm super blessed to have now is that it's created space in my life to actually start cultivating the other things that light me up, like music, other things. It gives you those options, but that's what I think in our industry especially in a lot of industries, we want to help people, help them anyway we can to experience that. Jason: They say, “What the world needs is people that are alive” I think as entrepreneurs that's where we feel. We want momentum. That's what we crave. The rest of the world, they're just trying to figure out how to be happy. “If I could just be happy then everything would be great.” It's whether they're happy or sad, depressed or excited, but for entrepreneurs, I feel like our two speeds are momentum or stuck, that's it. It’s momentum or overwhelm. We either feel like we're in complete overwhelm, we’re stuck, we can't move forward or we’re frustrated, or were on fire and alive. That's my version of happy or sad. I want to feel like I'm in momentum and I feel like as entrepreneurs, we get momentum when we give it away. When we create momentum for other people, whether it's our clients or the people in our family, the people around us, when we're creating momentum for other people, we get that sense of momentum, too. Steve: Yeah, and that's something I resonate with and I’ve heard you talk about it Jason. I love that message. I really think that the blue ocean is caring about people more than anyone else, like proactively putting the people in your life in the forefront, figuring out, “Who do I want to be a hero to?” and being a hero is usually used in a reactive way. Jason: Right, like there's a crisis or a problem, now you're going to be a hero. Steve: Right, as opposed to being a proactive hero like spending time and saying, “Okay, who are the most essential people or buckets or groups of people in my life and how can I serve them more deeply and impactfully today,” because the best quote of success I've ever heard is something like become a servant of many. If you wish to become great, learn to become the servant of many. I sometimes get a little jaded in certain groups because you constantly hear the feedbacks, the reduce the cost, the get it all out sourced. I use VAs, I look to reduce cost, I look to get fair fees, so I'm not knocking that, but everyone's playing in that sandbox. I'm very interested in seeing what is everyone else doing and how can I do the opposite because that's one of the ways to become successful that I've learned is that you go zig when they zag. That’s cliché. You can't do that when you're buried in tenant complaints and one-star reviews and a team you have to micromanage. I'm a big believer in hiring young, smart, motivated people and leaving them alone. We're a results-based company at Good Life. You can work from home, you could bring your dog, although actually our manager of our building said we can't anymore. I don't really care, with the exception of a couple like the front desk needs to be there in case someone walks in and things like that, but do your thing. There's a great podcast I heard yesterday on how I built this with Guy Raz where the owner of Patagonia wrote this book called “Let Them Go Surfing” and it's all about that. I think our biggest issues once we get to a certain size is people problems, and then we don't know why we can't keep good people, it’s because we don't paint it in a compelling vision. We micromanage. We don't let them do what they want to do. We try to fit corporate bureaucracies into the more entrepreneurial company that people want to be a part of these days. Would you rather follow just checklists and not have a future or would you rather be able to create your own future? Like I tell my team, “You can become anything with me. The sky's the limit wherever you want to go.” So, I think those are big parts of success. Jason: That's really what we're talking about today. The topic is freedom of time, money, and relationships through better business practices. What are some of the practices that you've implemented at Good Life that you feel like you've created more freedom of time and money? Steve: It starts with the business owner and probably a series of game changers. The first was moving out of my office. I had this epiphany and I was taught this by someone and I told the team, we had a meeting, I said, “I apologize. I've stood in the way of you guy’s future and I apologize for it. When I'm here, I'm the bottle neck. I'm stunting your growth. You can come to me for all the answers,” and the fact is as entrepreneurs if you serve 100 people and say, “Where do you do your best work?” nobody says at their office, who does the best work at their office? Why are we working out of our offices? It's just because that's how it's always been done. I kicked myself out. I don't have a desk at my office on purpose. I used to have the stereotypical nicest office in the corner with the best view, and then it freed up so much space, it helped my team grow. Once I created that space, now I work out of my home, and the first key to greater time, money, and purpose is to create space I believe, for yourself. I came from a place where three or four years ago, my dad always taught me outwork everyone else. I remember one time he came to visit me at a college and he asked me how much I was working, I said about 60 hours a week. He’s like, “60 hours? I work 60 hours, I'm retired. What the hell is wrong with you?” Jason: Step it up Steve. Steve: Yeah, and it's great. I love my dad. His work ethic was the reason I'm here today, because it got me to that. There are seasons of life. I knew there had to be a better way, so when I'd made that decision to move out of my office, I said, “Hey, you guys are going to have a bigger opportunity to move up now.” Some of the other things we did was hiring an operations manager. That was huge. That created space and that was something I look forward, and it took me probably eight or nine months to pull the trigger on that, but the operations manager was huge. Slowly but surely, I went from just being stressed out all the time, not having any space in my life. An over-scheduled entrepreneur has no time to transform. I said, “Alright, I'm going to create some space,” and then all the ideas and all the answers start bubbling to the surface because spiritually we all have all the answers inside of us, just we’re so distracted and so just going that we don't allow it. Jason: We’re preloaded, we're in fight or flight, we're up in our monkey brain, and all the great things, our greatest geniuses as an entrepreneur can't bubble up or can't come through when we're in that state. Steve: Exactly, and so that's time that just forced me to get more time because as an entrepreneur, you can make that decision. Jason: We’re buying time. Every person that we pay on our team, we’re buying time. That's what we're buying. I think the mistake we make as entrepreneurs, a lot of entrepreneurs I see, they go hire based on an org chart. They don't hire based on what they personally need in order to off load or get themselves out of the things that they don't really energetically enjoy. You getting an operations manager if you're a visionary entrepreneur is brilliant, because that's like the yin to the yang. It's the exact opposite personality type of the driven entrepreneur is to have somebody that is systems-minded, process-minded, and that can make sure everything's running. Generally, us entrepreneurs, we’re terrible managers. We think we're great at everything, but we're really terrible managers and usually the operations manager is much better at making sure everything runs smoothly. Steve: It's hard to take off or get more time initially if you don't have the money. The money component is important. I went on a Mastermind trip to Mexico a few years back with a handful of people and we looked at everyone's P&L and that was one of the biggest game changers for me was not only understanding my numbers. I think everyone needs a CFO at least part time or at least some outside eyes on the business is so important. Jason: I have a profit first coach and accountant. I'm not really a big fan of having a CFO in a business. Usually, my take on it is every story I've heard of embezzlement or of challenges it's always like the CFOs, and so they're also the crusher of all hopes and dreams. I don't want somebody making too big of decisions there personally, but I want to be coached, and I want to have input and I want to have insight from a third-party perspective, but I don't want them to have control over my stuff. Steve: Totally. I get that. I don't have a CFO, we use a profit coach. Jason: Yeah, similar thing. Steve: Right, but I found that I wasn't going to build a business I thought I was going to build because I'm a feel guy. Like I learn by doing. Does this feel right and I’ll make a decision, but I make decisions very quickly. I'm a high quick start, so I'll make 10 decisions, eight will be bad, two will be great but in the same time that someone else makes one decision. I sometimes can stay a step ahead, but I had to add some revenues and I wanted them to be value-added revenue sources where everyone was a win-win-win, so things like doing inspections better in charging for them. When you don't charge for something, you usually do them poorly. Every manager that doesn't charge for inspections, I guarantee 90% of you are behind on your inspections. Jason: Let's say that again. I like that concept. If you don't charge for it, you're probably doing it poorly. Steve: Right. I'm a believer in this. Just take inspections for example. You go survey people around NARPM or any property management group and everyone's behind on their inspections so they don't do them right. We send a letter to our clients. We said, “Hey, inspections are actually really important. This is when we identify how well the tenant is taking care of the place is when we get out in front of preventive maintenance and it needs to be done well, so we need to hire someone to do this full time and we want to invest in this X amount we charge. It’s going to probably save you three times at least that amount by getting out in front of some of this stuff,” so that was a win-win and our clients loved it. Maybe they didn't want to get charged initially, but once they saw the improved inspection, once they saw the improved communication and results, that was a big win. Then just some other ones that we added in. I think you got to keep the investor fees-friendly. The worst thing we can do as managers is fee our owners to death and they’d get out of the business. Ultimately, the freedom of time, money, relationships, and purpose is what we want, but it's a human need. It's what your clients want, too. So, we have a unique position as property managers, realtors, and investors ourselves in a lot of cases to help people build wealth through real estate. You're a manager and you make it easy, because if you don't make it easy, they burn out and they sell, but if they hold that house specially in San Diego for 30 years, that’s all you have to do and you've set your family up for life. They burn out, so we have a big position, a big part to play here. Jason: I love it, and I love that it’s like a mantra, having others build through real estate, and ultimately what property managers could be allowed towards doing. It’s not just managing a property. If your interests are in line with theirs, which that's their goal. Their goal is to build some wealth, otherwise, why would they be holding on to that property. Steve: Exactly. There's different ways to do that. Right now, we're looking at some other states to buy cash flow property and figure out how to have our owners follow us into some of these other markets. I think with technology these days, that's what all the venture people are doing, how to just pop up shops anywhere. That's something that's exciting to me right now because in San Diego it doesn't make sense to buy an $800,000 house that rents for $2800. We're sitting on some stuff when the market turns for San Diego, but yeah, there's different opportunities out there. Jason: Alright, cool. What should we talk about next? Steve: You know what I'm interested in? I actually thought of this today, and there's some things I've been thinking about doing that I procrastinate on. You know the saying… Jason: I think every business owner can say that. Steve: I know right? Jason: I call it the to-die list. We all have to do list of stuff. Just last week, I have my weekly commitments and I realized I was carrying all of these things over from week-to-week. I'm the guy that says to my clients, “If there's anything on your to do list for more than two weeks, you're not the person that should be doing it.” That's the problem. Yes, we all tend to do that as entrepreneurs. We tend to hold on to things instead of finding the right person to do them or giving it up somebody else. Steve: That’s so true. Jason: Talk about the to die list. Steve: Yeah, the to die list. I was thinking about this today. Two examples of things I have been procrastinating on. One, I don't want to answer email, anymore. I literally want to have email leave my life. I have gotten email down to just like 10 minutes a day at the end of the day, have an assistant, but literally that is still bugging me. I once got this really inspiring auto responder from this really smart cool guy, let’s see if I can find it. Jason: I don't deal with email anymore? Steve: He said, “Thank you for your message. Perhaps you are overwhelmed by email. In fact, last year I sent 43,742 emails, read and review countless more so in order to serve our stakeholders much more efficiently, I have asked my highly capable assistant that’s in New York to review, assign and reply all my email request moving forward,” and then it says some other stuff. That's something I want to do, but it's big and scary, and yeah, I know I'll probably have to respond to some emails, but I'm talking about eliminating it more. I'm like, “Why don’t I just try that? Why do I have to make this decision I procrastinate on forever? Why don't I just try that?” I think it comes back to we don't want to fail like that, we're always raised with, “There is no try, it's to do or die,” or whatever. You don't try, you either do it or you don't, but it's like, “Why can't I just try that? I have an assistant. Why don’t I run that for two or three weeks and see how it goes?” The other thing and I'm sure you've probably thought of this, Jason, is like Gary V, having maybe a semi full-time person doing vlogs, recording not just every few days, like every day. I'm just sitting on that and I'm like, “Well, why don't I just try it for like a freaking month?” I think there's so much possibility with that and I wanted to see what you thought because I'm like, “I don't have to commit to it.” There's so much stuff. Even hiring someone. I was thinking about hiring a GM or an operations manager for eight or nine months. What if I just said, “Hey, let's try it.” I mean this isn’t Canada or some other places where I don't think you can fire people. Try it, hire the person, and if it doesn't work out, let them go. Jason: Yeah. Let's go back to the email and then we can go the other thing. Here's how I identify stuff. I mentioned this on the previous episode, but I personally will do a time study probably about once a quarter and if I bring on a new team member that takes something off my plate, because how I identify what I need to get off my plate is by doing a time study. I have to be accountable. Where's my time actually going and which things are low dollar an hour work, which things are things that I don't enjoy. I actually write a plus or minus sign next to each thing that I'm doing, whether it energizes me or it drains me, and then identify the things that are tactical or strategic, things that are self-care versus family time. I have a whole system, I take clients through for doing time studies. When I do this, that helps me get clarity for what I need to get rid of. I gave up email a long time ago because I hated email. It was always a minus sign, it was always tactical, it was never like my hopes and dreams were coming true when I was writing an email. I don't even look at my email. So, if you've emailed me, I'm sorry, I don't look at it. My assistant will take care of the email. She reads it. If she has any questions, she sends me a message through a walkie talkie app, because I don't want to type to her. She'll send me a voice message through Voxer. We use Voxer and I use it with coaching clients, she will send me a Voxer voice message and say “Jason, what do you think, how should we respond to this email. They're asking this.” I say, “Just tell them this, this and this, but say it nicer than I just said.” Then she’ll take care of it, and she's asking me questions throughout the day. We also do daily huddles as a team and that's usually where she gets most of her questions in. I say, “Is anybody stuck on anything?” She's like, “Yeah, did you get my message about this?” “No, I wasn't paying attention.” “Okay, what do you need?” I answer it and she can respond to the email for me. She's gotten really good at understanding over time, she gets better and better at knowing my voice, knowing what I would say and she takes care of more and more and more. Every day she'll give me a short list, “Here are the emails I don't know what to do with. You need to take care of these,” and I begrudgingly will deal with them within a day or two. That's how it works. [...] then I’ll talk with them and move them forward, but outside of that, usually she hands it off to my team or has somebody else in the team deal with it. If it's support-related, I think most of my clients have learned that they're not getting a fast response by coming to me directly. They get their best response by emailing our support email address or system and so I think every property manager needs to do the same. Initially, when you're small you're the guy. They probably have your cell phone number. Tenants owners, everybody, and eventually you change your phone number and you create some barriers and protections, you have to educate and teach people how you want them to treat you, and you’re going to teach your customers what are the right channels and you have to teach your team what are the right channels. My days are pretty quiet. Steve: I love that. That's super inspiring. You fired me up even more and I love how you said it's tactical. It's very transactional-tactical. I want to be playing in the sandbox of transformational. I feel like I'm retired now because I do what I want and I'm blessed to say that. There's been a lot of hard work behind that, but I'm to the point to where I'm not going to do stuff that doesn't light me up and there's a small subset of tasks like creating content—podcast is one of them—that I could do all day and I have endless energy for. That's where I add the most value. So, the bigger the impact on people that I can have is going to be when I'm fired up and passionate and not dragging off of email, but I think we don't give ourselves permission to do that. You saying that, I'm all in now. I was 80% in, Jason, now I'm all in. I hope some listeners are all in to move forward. That's what I love about podcasts and other things with so much being shared these days. A lot of times we think things, or we know things internally, or we feel things a certain way, but we don't give ourselves permission to actually say that or feel that in public because sometimes we just need someone else to say it to give us the courage. I've noticed that happening so much lately that I finally got pissed, and I'm like, “You know what? I'm making a list of everything that I believe in whole-heartedly, that I think is a little off mainstream maybe.” That way I can have it in writing and I'm just going to start saying these things because I'm tired of being, “Oh yeah, and I felt that way, too,” but I never said anything. Jason: I mention this on the previous episode, too, that I've been really opinionated in the past and I've realized that I think I'm a little more humble now that I realized my way isn't always the exact right way for everyone, so I'm learning. I was just in Columbus for a week and one of the things that really hit me hard is that I've been really opinionated and I think it's important to put out things more as observations rather than gospel truth. Somebody may love email or somebody may hate doing podcast stuff. Everybody is different and I think everybody's perception is different, everybody's experiences as to what works or doesn't work in marketing could be different, their market might be different. There are so many variables involved, so I think moving forward, my content is a lot more observational because I've realized I was attracting clients or creating monsters in the industry that are hyper-opinionated and the hyper-opinionated people become like, “Oh my God, [...],” but the problem is they create a lot of negativity in the industry. They become the rampant [...] guys that are heartless, that want to crush all the hopes and dreams of every tenant on the planet. We need to be careful in any business or any industry in being too opinionated because what ends up happening is we end up attracting most opinionated people. Those are the people that turn on you. Those are the owners you don't want eventually. Those are the people that give you the negative reviews when one little thing goes wrong. I want open minded people, and these are the clients that I’ve loved the most, but I was attracting less of them per capita because of the message that was so in your face. “This is the [...], do this,” and I was just so strong willed that way and I realize now that that creates its own monster. I think it's important to share though, honestly, these little things that we have, that are weird about is or that are woo-woo that we feel like the rest of the world will judge. To say. “This is me, this is how I am, this is my experience,” and yeah I think you when we let our freak flag fly, so to speak, there are people that run with it. As long as we're not, “Hey, this is the gospel truth. This is the only way to do it,” we're not going to turn off so much so many of the people that don't resonate. They might go, “You know, Jason, that’s cool that you're into that weird stuff, but I'm more of a practical guy and I don’t resonate with that, but I like a lot of the stuff you say.” If I say, “This is the only way to do it,” I'm forcing them to make a choice to go all in and do everything my way or the highway. Steve: Your coach helped you nail that idea. I had that opposite issue. I think the issue for me was that I didn't want to ever come off as opinionated. I'm scared almost having an opinion because I'm like, “Do your thing, man,” so I’m always quick to anything I believe in. I'm quick to say, “Do what works for you. This is just my journey. Do what works for you.” I think like attracts like and that's a really cool observation that you started attracting all these opinionated people. The coaching thing, I love that you have coaches and you’re a coach yourself because the power of coaching has changed my life. Strategic coach, I work with Jason Goldberg. Every time I have a call with him, I transform. It's really crazy. If there's one thing I'm super high on right now, it's co-creation. Co-creation is the super power that nobody's talking about and I've experienced it in many ways. First through music. Although I normally do music on my own and I'll just write songs. When I get in the room with the right people, they don't even have to be a great musician, it's just that the energy. If we’re vibrating on the same frequency, things just come out so great. I played with this rapper the other day. Two of our new songs are two of my favorite songs I've recorded in the past year. Back when I had a casual mastermind that we used to do, helping each other co-create, kick this process back to you, now you kick it back to me and blah, blah, blah, everything just accelerated. So, I think outside eyes on the business, coaches, casual masterminds, paid masterminds, whatever it is, I think the more we're interacting with others and having a sounding board, the faster we're going to get to where we're going and the more transformative the experience will be. Jason: I agree. To touch on that, every single person you'll notice, everybody listening will know this is true. You can talk about it in terms of inner energy or spirituality or whatever, but every single person that you’re around brings out a different side of you. There are people that when I'm around them, I feel I'm freaking hilarious, I’m the funniest guy on the planet. They’re laughing at everything I say. It's awesome. Then there's people that I'm around that I feel I'm super mental, analytical, and logical. That's how they perceive me and that's what they bring out in me. And there are people that feel I'm this emotional sensitive person. My kids would probably say, “No, he’s Mr. Analytical.” There are different people that bring out a different side to us. This is also why I have a strong introverted side. I need space away from people to reconnect with who I am and to make I'm me. I feel when we're around other people, part of it is how they perceive and see us, brings that out in us, it allows us to be [...] energy and yes absolutely there's this connection and a certain combination of different people, or different energies, or different whatever that will create a different music. You've got the Beatles, for example. These four guys came together and they created all kinds of interesting sounds and music that had a really strong impact and all them wrote songs [...], but on their own, none of them really created as strong of a situation without the others. Just the energy between Paul McCartney and John Lennon was pretty magical. Steve: Totally, and country artists or country songwriters write typically with at least two but usually three or four people in the same room. I think there's parallels because I can speak from experience. I was constantly, with the exception of going to maybe two conferences a year, I was at the desk in my office, head down, genius with 1000 helpers, although I wasn't a genius that is just a saying I’ve heard by any stretch of the imagination. Jason: The emperor with no clothes. Steve: Right, the fool with too much control, and that’s the thing now. I'm in charge, but I'm not in control and that’s self-freeing. It's the people, my people that are awesome are in control and the cool thing now to get to the impact or the purpose part that is super firing me up these days is that I've gotten to a point now to where my job with Good Life is to take care of my team. It's to figure out how can I make their lives better. How can I figure out, what are their dangers, their opportunities, their strengths? Where do they want to be in three years? How can I cultivate that? How can I make it so all of them would run through a wall for me and take a bullet for me because if they would do that, they will treat my money like their money, my company like their company. The reason I started really researching how, I was like how does the military sail hundreds of 18-year-olds across the sea and set up forward military bases. It's just mind boggling, and I read Extreme Ownership. It’s a great book, some other books, but you talk about decentralized command. The top gives them the mission and then that leader gives them the mission and then the lieutenant, I’m butchering correct words. Jason: The hierarchy? Steve: Yeah, the hierarchy, but they are allowed to come up with the game plan and the battle plan. One of my jobs at Good Life is to make it okay to fail. To be okay to test things and screw things up and get beat up over it. Jason: Because if they're afraid to fail, guess what happens? They start hiding crap from you. Then there's all the secret stuff going on then there’s interoffice politics, there’s backbiting. People have to be allowed to fail and not feel they're going to have their head chopped off. Otherwise, you have a business that’s unsafe for you. I love the idea of you giving up control, I've given up control over my email. I don't even know what's getting sent out half the time, but I've created trust and I trust her. She's very cautious in how she does it. I've given up my schedule. I was in Vegas last week, the week before that I think it was in Columbus, a week before that I was I think in Phoenix. I don't choose anymore. My assistant, she's like, “Here’s a speaking opportunity. You're going to go speak here.” She sets up these podcast episodes, everything I've given up autonomy on my time, but I still blackout Mondays and Fridays so I can do some of the things I want and then I have my weekends, but you give up control. The higher you move up in your business, the less control you have and the more you give to the people around you. I just do what they tell me to do. I show up. My job is to support them. I love what you were saying that you've transitioned because I think as we start out as entrepreneurs and we get our first few team members. We’re always asking the question and frustrated why can't my team just do what I say. Then eventually we transition and we transform and evolve and realizing they are some of our best assets, they're supporting us, they're better at us in things that they do, they love their areas of expertise and now it's, how can I support them? How can I help them get ahead? How can I make it easier? How can I help them avoid burnout? You also threw out the words transformational and transactional, and I think those are two very different leadership styles that I think are important to point out. I think what you’ve just been describing is you're trying to create a team that is transformational. Transformational leadership is where you give them an outcome and say, “That's where I want to go,” and they say, “Great,. We'll figure it out, we'll help you get there.” Transactional leadership is, “We're going to go here and here's exactly how we’re going to do it and we’ll do it my way,” and then there's no buy-in, there’s no ownership, they don't get to fail because if they do what you tell them to do and it doesn't work, whose fault is it? It’s mine, but that means they can't win too. If they can't fail, they can never win, and you're never going to keep A players on your team that never get to win. This is why people get so frustrated by millennials, because they're dinosaur business owners, they're running their business like assholes, they're tyrants, they're trying to micromanage their team, tell everybody to do it, and it’s transactional. They're saying, “I'm giving you money, just do what I tell you to do. I paid you, do it.” Millennials don't stand for that. They value themselves more. They want something beyond just being told what to do and getting a paycheck. Believe me, I have team members on my team that would just be there to show up and [...] and get their check. They don't believe in you, they don’t believe in the company, they're hypers, and they go home and complain about you, and the job, and they live for the weekends. But if team members enjoy the work and they feel they have freedom and they have autonomy, you have their discretionary time. They're thinking about you after work. “How can we make this better?” They’re thinking about you on the weekends. They do extra stuff because they're in love with what they're doing. Steve: Totally. Now, you said that really well and I think what comes up for me as the EMyth, which was a very transformational book to use that word for me. Checklist, at certain points at Good Life, we are a results based company, but a lot of times I get pulled to these meetings it’s like this person is not… they checked the box and they didn't do it or they didn't check the box and they should have, you know I mean? What's the results? Is the days on market good? Where is his KPIs? Although they’re good, we have this back and forth. So, here's something that I want to stick my flag in the sand as something that's not conventional and goes away from my instinct which is let them figure it out. I don't care about the checklist. We're not all going to be McDonald's. Honestly, I'm not trying to scale my business across the whole country, if I was, I probably would have to make sure everybody checks that box, but I'm really interested in the small giants approach, where it's going deep with the smaller amount of people, still having a big business that makes a big impact. I say, “Hey, look at the results. Make it a results-based company because they can own it. They have more ownership in that regard.” Something else that comes to mind was, I remember I used to walk into the office when I used to go to the office every day and people would be on YouTube and I would freaking be so mad. They're watching some videos, I would stew about, I wouldn’t say anything right away. I would go in my office and fume. Then I remember I talked to a friend about it, someone I respect, a mentor. He's like, “Man, you got to let that go. If they get the results, who cares how many cat videos they're watching. You want a fun environment. If you go lay the hammer down on that, you're going to not have the team that you need to have to make your dreams come true.” Someone I respected telling me that was me letting go of a helium balloon. All this weight was just lifted and I was free. I didn't have to micromanage. Jason: I think it's interesting because sometimes usually the person or the team that gets really caught up on the checklist and everything being done a certain way, that's usually the operations person. They love that stuff, and it needs to be done this way, but I think that's our job as the visionaries to remind them it's the outcome that matters. It's the end result that matters. The end result is making sure we have a profitable business. The end result is to make sure that we're honoring our customers and we're treating people well. These sort of things, if we want to get to the outcome. How we get to that outcome, there's probably a million ways we can do it, and whether a certain box wasn't checked or certain thing didn't end up happening. Well, maybe that process is too cumbersome. Maybe it needs to be supplied, as long as getting a result. There’s always this balance. You can have a 30-point checklist that somebody has to complete, but if you can get it down to 10 steps and they can actually do it every time and it doesn't feel it’s in the way, then you're better off than the people that are operating without looking at a process document because most people don’t. They'll do it once and then just skip it. You need something that they can live with on an ongoing basis. I think that's really important to point out what you said is that it's the results, that results don't lie, it's the outcome that really matters. So, I think if you take a step back and say, “Well, what outcome are we going to achieve? Somebody's talking about checklist not being done well. What was the outcome we were trying to achieve? What's the outcome? Okay, did we achieve it? Who was responsible for it and how do we know whether it got done or not? Okay great, well then we're good, maybe we should change the process.” Steve: Exactly. Those are some things, but the exciting part is having freedom of time, money, relationships, the people you work with, the people you get to do business with, I know you talk a lot about firing the bad clients. That was an amazing experience, our profit went way up when we fired the wrong types of clients and getting really centered on our core values because then it's easy to hire and fire people and hire clients based on your core values. Ours are really simple. It’s RPG: be reliable, be positive, and be a go giver. It's based off that book, The Go Giver, and it's just simple. We used to have seven or eight, but then I couldn't even remember what they were and they felt weird, so we made it really simple. Now, my business development manager just goes down the list, like, “Are they reliable? Were they at the appointment on time? Did they send you the thing they said they were going to send you?” It just makes this compass of how to do business with the type of people that are going to make you successful. Jason: That's one of the things that coach clients through is to get clear on their three, maybe four core values because you can have a list to 10, you can have 20, but really your team aren’t going to remember all of those and you can usually boil it down to three core things. For us, ours are a little bit different. One of my core values is just transparency. That's originally why I call my company Open Potion and in just creating transparency I think in the industry has created some various significant shifts. I think also for [...] just how I operate. That's a value that is central to me and I want my team to espouse and really our companies are just extensions of us. It's my Iron Man suit that I get the strap on every day, that's my team and everything around me. It increases my capacity. It makes me feel a super human. I'm getting more done. I've got India handling my email and Adam handing fulfillment. I feel like I’m a superhuman. Steve: He’s awesome, by the way. Jason: Thank you. I think of other things I'm really big on is just eliminating constraints and looking for the big constraints that are preventing momentum, so that I can create momentum. It’s all about creating momentum for my clients and for myself. I think it's going to be different for everybody. With all the different things that we are inspired or that resonates with us and I think every business owner needs to get clear on really what their values are because you can't have it. There are only two types of team members. There are hiders we talked about that are hiding and they are living for the weekend and they show up for paycheck or there's believers. The only way you can have believers is if you have something for them to believe in. If you want believers on your team and you want clients that believe in you, you have to have values that you make transparent or clear to the marketplace or to your team so that they can they can buy in to them. It's amazing to see companies get to a large size without even having that in place. Once you get it in place, I imagine the shift is traumatic for the culture. Steve: And if there's one last thing I would leave the listeners with that’s going to be probably the most impactful thing for me in the last 24 months was, I had this epiphany that everything worthwhile lives on the other side of fear. I knew that instinctually and I've been told that before. You know how you can read a book, that's why they say re-read the books that you love because you read it four times and then you'll start to actually really get it. I knew that, but I didn't really get it and it hit me, it became crystal clear. I was like, “Okay, if I want my dreams to happen and be fulfilled and live a life that I want, I have to figure out what scares me and do that.” I have a two-part test. Does it scare me, part one. Part two, does my heart tell me to do it? If the answer to both of those is yes, you do it. I even made a wristband that says, “What scares you, do that.” I don't have it on me right now, I took it off. Just to remind me and it goes back to the try thing. All my biggest leaps came after I did something I wasn't prepared for and I was scared to do, like going to that mastermind. I couldn’t afford it, it was really expensive. Hiring my operations manager, hiring a marketing manager. I gave a talk recently at PM Grow that I thought I was going to be broke after I hired my marketing person because I didn't think I have the margin and we ended up having our best year ever. It comes back to the try thing. Figure out what scares you, do that, try it, whatever it is. I think that's where we make our biggest leaps and that's what sets people apart from living a life that they intended to having regrets, which is the number one regrets of the dying is that they didn't live a life true to themselves, instead they lived a life other people expected them to live. That's the thing that scares me more than anything in the world and so I’m passionate about sharing that message. Jason: Steve, it’s been awesome having you on the show. I'll second that. It really is that voice deep down that is that voice of truth, and also you can ask yourself deep down, “Do I really want to be doing this?” Deep down, “Should I be doing this thing?” Deep down, “Does this really resonates with me,” and if the answer isn't a, “Hell yes,” then there's a lack of congruency and I think that's where you're saying your heart is yes. I think [...] of something that isn't working is the death of something inside you. It means change, something has to die. You want to know what's really interesting? I've noticed a lot of this on [...]. The scariest thing to kill or to allow to die is the fantasy of something great. I’ll explain this, I've noticed this a lot lately with business owners. They have this fantasy of having a really healthy business, or having a business that is growing, or a business that they contribute, or they get to do great things, and that fantasy is so exciting to them and juicy to them that they don't want to take action on it, because to take action on it means they have to kill it. They have the brutally pull out the knife and slaughter their fantasy the second they start taking action towards it, because now reality sets in. Reality is never going to be at that level that the fantasy was, but it's better because it's real. I usually use the example of my friend in high school that wanted to be a rock star, which sounds like you. You had to eventually give up the fantasy of being a rock star or you have to choose into it fully. He had this fantasy of being a rock star and he would buy expensive guitars and amplifiers, and he wouldn't take guitar lessons. He won’t love the fantasy of having this fantasy of being a rock star and as long as he can buy cool guitars and keep imagining this future that would never happen, he was happy, but he didn't want to go sleep in his car and do gigs, tour round, work his butt off, and practice nine hours a day. He didn’t want to do any of that. That's reality. Reality means some work. Initially, if you're listening to this and you’re like, “This is great. Jason and Steve have these companies and making all this money, they've got their assistants. It must be so nice for them.” They're probably listening and going, “I don't get it. I'm not there.” You may have to be the person listening that you right now, it's time for you to double down. It's time for you to hustle. It's time for you to do stuff that scares you. It's time for you to get off of the fantasy of whatever you're hoping of doing or hoping of starting to really get out there and do the work, the hard work to make it happen and you listen to that voice, you get to that place. You get to that place eventually where you're now are able to focus on your team. You're able to be a coach and a mentor to people around you instead of the person trying to figure out how to get everybody to do everything. I think that transition really involves taking those scary leaps. I think every coach that I've hired was a leap. None of them were cheap. Every coach I've hired, every program or training I bought into, some of them I couldn't even afford at the time. They were risks, but I knew deep down it was a yes. I just knew it was a yes and it terrified me. I think for those that are really analytical and logical, they're like, “I don't get it Jason,” but for anybody else listening. If you have that voice deep down inside that is saying, “Hey, this is what's next for you. You've known it. You've been avoiding it and you're trying to figure out how to make it all feel safe, take the leap, and jump and do it. Worst case scenario, you're going to learn some powerful lessons.” I had lessons where I spent a lot of money and it didn't work out. A lot of money. I've probably lots of money making some bad choices, but I wouldn't trade those lessons and I've learned from them. Steve: Yeah, and money is just one side of it. Making a decision to be a different person, or to take more time off, or to go into a completely different field, that's probably the easiest one to do is scratch a check for something. Sometimes our way of being is probably what gets in the way of most of our issues because you can't solve the problem with the same mind that created it. Creating some space and getting clear always helps, getting clear on what you're trying to do and the life you're trying to live. At the end of the day, we’re the writer, director, producer of our own store and I love how you said, you kill off the fantasy because that's true. It's scary. I think that's why a lot of people don't delegate it or it takes so long to delegate because it's scary. If you give that up, what are you going to do? Then you actually might have to sit with yourself and figure out what's next and nobody wants to be alone with themselves. That's a scary place. It's through the work, it's through conquering those demons slowly over time that I've seen good results, so it's a process. Take it easy on yourself and do what's doable. I beat myself up a lot over the years and it's I think we're all pretty ambitious. Don't kill yourself. Life's too short. Just have fun with. Do what’s doable. Jason: Well, Steve, it’s been awesome having on the

How can eCommerce businesses reduce their time to first purchase by 10X? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, WordPress developer and eCommerce expert Jason Resnick shares the process he uses to help eCommerce businesses dramatically reduce the time from first touch to first purchase. And while Jason works primarily with eCommerce businesses, the advice he shares is equally applicable to businesses in other verticals. From visitor segmentation, to behavioral analytics and content personalization, Jason goes into detail on the process he has used to help one client reduce time to first purchase from 40 days to 8, and for another client from 9 days to 1.  Some highlights from my conversation with Jason include: Jason is a WordPress developer and eCommerce marketing expert. According to Jason, one of the keys to reducing the time to first purchase is to capitalize on the positive emotion that a visitor feels when they discover your site for the first time and get them to explore further. One way to do this is by adding a widget to your site with related blog articles. Asking your visitors a qualifying question is a good way to learn a bit more about them and then use that information to tailor what you show them. With these types of questions, and then behavioral information like the articles and pages your visitors are looking at, you can create a lead scoring model. Based on the topics that a visitor is consuming content on, you can use that information to change the copy on your CTAs to make them more relevant to your visitors' interests. In eCommerce, the first 90 days are crucial. If you can't convince a new contact to purchase something with the first 90 days, the odds of ever selling to them drop dramatically. When Jason works with new clients, he begins by taking baseline measurements of how long it takes for a new contact to go from first touch to first purchase. By using segmentation, intent awareness, and personalized copy, Jason has been able to reduce time to first purchase for one client from 40 days to 8, and for another client from 9 days to 1.  When it comes to converting new leads into customers, Jason says it all comes down to trust, and you need to build trust into every interaction you have, from your website copy to your email marketing. Resources from this episode: Save 10% off the price of tickets to IMPACT Live with promo code "SUCCESS" Visit the Rezzz website Follow Jason on Twitter Connect with Jason on LinkedIn Listen to the podcast to learn exactly how Jason helps his client shorten their sales cycles - and how you can too. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth, and today my guest is Jason Resnick, who is the founder of Rezzz. Welcome Jason. Jason Resnick (Guest): Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Jason and Kathleen recording this episode together . Kathleen: Tell my audience a little bit about what Rezzz is, and your background, and how you came to be doing what you're doing now. About Rezzz Jason: Sure. Rezzz is my business, it's what I've been doing for, this August will be nine full years, full time for myself. I am a solopreneur. I don't have a team behind me, but it's a web development business. I've always loved the eCommerce space, and the human behavior behind all of eCommerce. Where most developers and designers shy away from eCommerce so early on when eCommerce was ramping up in the early 2000s, I flocked to it, I was attracted to it. I built my business around helping online businesses, and I call them eCommerce, it could be anybody taking a transaction. I have nonprofit clients. I have online coaches. I have clients that sell physical products. Basically anybody taking a transaction, to help them get anonymous visitors into being customers, and then customers into repeat customers, and then repeat customers into raving fans. I do that through a number of different strategies and tactics, which most of them revolve around what's called behavioral marketing, or email automation, but also a mix of onsite personalization, that's where my skillset as a web developer come into play. Kathleen: Yeah. You know, it's funny that you say that about marketers shying away from eCommerce, because I've worked with a lot of marketers in my time. I was an agency owner for 11 years, and of course now I'm at Impact. It's true, I know a lot of marketers, and a lot of them say, "I don't touch eCommerce." It's almost like they're afraid to. I know one or two who do it, and the ones I know who do it have like gone deep, I think because there's such an opportunity, or a vacuum left by everybody else. Why do you think it is that marketers shy away from it so much? Jason: I think it really stems from there's so much tech involved with it, and it's so close to the bottom line that it's easy, I mean, and this is going to come out bad, but because there is a direct correlation that business owners see X dollars coming in per month, per day, or whatever it is from the site, when you say that you can affect that, they're going to see that result immediately. Most marketers, and obviously when we build campaigns sometimes those things take some time to build up, and sometimes you have to have those difficult conversations with clients a little bit earlier on in the eCommerce space than, let's say nonprofits, or standard brochure type websites, those things. I think that because of not just that, those difficult conversations that you might have to have, but also the tech side of things, if something goes wrong, if you're the point of contact and you don't necessarily know at a deep level what those technical bells and switches are, then you're going to be like, "Uh." With your hands raised and saying, "I'm not sure. Let's go see what we can find out from the tech team." I think at least from my experience, that's what customers tell me when they come into my ecosystem. They want somebody that, they may not know all the technical aspects of things, but they do understand that some things do take time, and they just want somebody that can take care of all of it for them. They don't want that ping pong match like, oh this is the host, and this is the developer, and this is the marketing side of things. They don't want that ping pong match, and they kind of just want that holistic point of contact person to be able to say, "Yes, there's a problem." Or, "Yes, this is what we need to do." At least from my experience I think that that's the reason why a lot of people shy away from it. Kathleen: Yeah. It's interesting because web design, development, et cetera, in general comes with a lot of high stakes, especially in this day and age when so many people find your business by your website. With eCommerce, as you rightfully pointed out, it's like way, way, way higher stakes, because your business is your website. Jason: Right. Kathleen: Your website is your business. Either way you look at it, if you break something, you're breaking the entire revenue stream of the business, not just like, oh our customers couldn't see our website today, or we didn't get another form fill. Jason: Right. Kathleen: Yeah, it's not an inconvenience, it's a major, major risk. I can totally see that. Now, and I should say, you came with very high marks, because I met you through one of my past podcast guests. This is one of my favorite ways to get new guests, is when former guests reach out and say, "Hey, I have somebody you should talk to." That actually happened in your case when Val Geisler, who I interviewed a few months ago, wrote to me unsolicited and said, "I really think you should talk to this guy." Val, for those who either didn't hear her episode or don't know, is an amazing email conversion copywriter, mostly for B2B SaaS companies. I have a tremendous amount of respect for her, and as soon as she wrote to me I said, "I'll talk to anybody that you think I should talk to." Jason: Thank you very much. Kathleen: Yeah. No, that was a good introduction. You do a lot of work, because you're in eCommerce, and what is interesting to me about you is that you're not just a web developer/designer. You work on some of the other aspects of eCommerce businesses, personalization, conversion optimization. How did you get from web design and development into these other areas? Jason: I think actually it, well my career took me in that path, but I think as a person it was the other way around. I've always been interested in human behavior. I got a minor in psychology in college. For me, and I went to college in the late '90s, and that was the advent of the internet. I mean, I remember going to the computer lab and building my first webpage. That was in like '96. Kathleen: I remember learning Basic. Jason: Right. Yes. Me too. Kathleen: I'm not going to say any more, because then that'll really date me. Jason: For me, when the advent of the internet came along, that was intriguing enough, because I was actually going for computer science at the time. At that time it was a lot of compiling code, and waiting for things to happen. Yet the web was like, I put code on a screen and I hit save, and I refresh and boom it's there. Hey, that's pretty cool. That intrigued me, but also my human nature side of things, just being perceptive of the world around me and kind of how people interact with certain things, and why they do what they do, and why they don't do what they don't do, always intrigued me. When the eCommerce world hit, pre Amazon, all the rest of it, people were afraid to put their credit cards in. Even online, let alone cellphones weren't even really a thing at that point in time. I was working for a consulting firm at that time, and we dealt with a lot of startups, and all of them wanted some sort of eCommerce in some sort of fashion. For me, it was always interesting to say, okay, if we use certain buttons in a certain way, and certain text in certain colors, we could create this, I don't want to say an artificial, but a perceptive environment of being safe. Where they can submit their credit card and not feel that they are sending it over and somebody's copying that down and running away with their identity. For me, that was the genesis of where I am today. I've always just kind of had that snowball effect, and really focus in on that specific part of my development skills. Because as you said, a lot of people were shying away from it, and I always knew that I wanted to work for myself. I had to find that niche, if you will, that sweet spot to really plant my flag in, and fit into a market that I could become known for. That was how I started all that. Just as the web evolved, now with email marketing, and how much data you can collect on somebody just by asking them a few questions, you can segment, you can promote certain things based around where a person is in their journey and their awareness. You can do all these things and marry things like your email marketing platform with your website with a little bit of code. Now there are services out there that can do this too, that your website can look completely different with two different people. It's all based around what you know about that person, where they came from, demographics, or even just what you know they clicked on in your last email. That's always been interesting to me because that's like the mom and pop of like the early 1900s, where somebody would walk into the store and you would have all your stuff ready because they knew you came in every Thursday. They knew who you were. For me, having that personalization and segmentation is what allows you, as the business owner, to know where your potential customers are, where your customers are, where your repeat customers are, and know how to cater to them in the best way possible. Kathleen: You know, it's fascinating that you just brought that up, because I literally just, as we're recording this, this morning published my latest episode, which was a conversation with Shai Schechter, who's the founder of a company called Right Message. That's exactly what he talked about, was his platform that he's built lets you ask your visitor a simple question like, what brings you here today? He actually equated it to the conversation you have when you walk into a shop. Like nobody is saying, "What industry are you in?" It's, "What brings you here today?" Jason: Right. Kathleen: Based on the answer to that, you can dynamically then update the copy on the page. He was seeing like 10x improvements in landing page and CTA conversion rates from that kind of like small amount of personalization. I definitely think there's something to it. Jason: Yeah, absolutely. I know Shai, I've known him for a couple of years. We've met at some events and things of that nature. Yeah, he's built a great platform. His platform's called Right Message, and I use Right Message as well for some assets of my business. Yeah, I mean it's that idea of, we've gotten away from that broadcast everything to everybody. Now we want to really cater to the one on one. That is what's going to increase conversions, and that's what's going to help you convert non customers to customers as quickly as possible. The more you know about them, the more that you can speak their language, the more that you're serving up the thing that they want at the right time, that's going to help you with your conversions. Reducing The Time to First Purchase Kathleen: Yeah. Now you, as you said, you do a lot of work in eCommerce, and one of the biggest areas of opportunity for optimization in eCommerce is how long it takes from first touch, if you will, with a lead or a prospect, to getting them to purchase. Time to first purchase. You've done some interesting work on shortening that time period, can you talk a little bit about that? Jason: Sure. Yeah. As you said, any time somebody sees you for the very first time, there's this innate human factor inside of us that, hey, we like this thing. This is awesome. There's this emotion, this euphoria that you get on the human side. What you want to do is, from a technical perspective, is to be able to capitalize on that euphoria, that feeling of good that somebody sees in you. What you can do nowadays is just ask them a couple of questions, or in the behavioral marketing side of things, see what they click on, what is interesting to them, what do they not click on? Those kind of things, prior to them even being in your email list. When they're in your email list obviously there's more details that you can get to, but with code snippets and things of that nature you can actually change your website around what they're reading on your blog. What you can do with your own blog, if you will, and I'm sure many of you have seen it, is that you have this "widget" that says, "You may also like ..." Or, "Here's other content that might be interesting to you." Because what you're on, the article that you're reading at this point in time, there is related articles in that same category on that same website. What they want you to do is, hey, if you're interested in this, then go check out this as well. They're trying to move you along in that journey to know that if you have a specific problem, well we have some resources and we know how to solve your problem. What you can do in the background of things is you can do "lead scoring". If somebody, let's just say on your website you have a bunch of articles around pricing or things of that nature, pricing, let's say you also have things on sales, or marketing. If somebody hits a couple of articles on your marketing side of things but they never look at pricing, then you could potentially change your website around that a little bit more. Make your calls to action to talk about marketing versus pricing. I do this on my website plenty of times. If somebody comes to me from, because I specialize in convert kit and drip, if somebody comes to me from the convert kit consultation, or convert kit experts they call them, if that webpage, then my services page gets reflected on that. I don't even mention drip, I just mention convert kit, because that's where they came from, so I'm assuming, based on their behavior, that that's what they're interested in. They're not interested in anything else that I do. You can be mindful of these sort of things, and just talking their language allows you to then get them to the next stage faster. Because if I can echo what they're saying to me, based on their actions what they're saying to me, then just us as humans we're going to say, "Hey, that's what I'm looking for. You know what I'm talking about." What I'll try to do in that respect is to be able to then grab their email address, and then market to them in that end. Talk to them about convert kit. Talk to them about potentially segmentation and those kind of things, or automated workflows if that's what they're looking for. All of this data really just gets passed over into my email marketing platform and my welcome sequence tailors to that. What that does is, like for my clients, is to be able to then baseline how long it takes for someone to first opt into your email list and then buy from you, because that window of opportunity is finite. Once you go past about 90 days, and obviously this depends on the type of product or service that you're selling, but on average 90 days, then you're not going to convert, or you're a lot less likely to convert. You want to be able to then, especially if you're selling multiple things, sell quickly. You want them to get that first purchase because that's always the hardest, and then get them to repeat buy after that. With just some small tweaks, and some small segmentation, and intent awareness, because we can dive into that a little bit more. Just based around some of those things you can then shorten that time frame greatly. I have some results where I've done for my clients, take their baseline of 40 days to the first purchase, and gone down to eight. I've had another client where it was nine days down to less than a day. Kathleen: Wow. Jason: It's just a matter of knowing and understanding the actions that somebody's taking, and then putting the right promotion, if you will. I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be a buy, it could be an email opt in or whatever. Putting the right promotion in front of them. How To Measure Time To First Purchase Kathleen: Let's wind back a little bit. Let's say I come to you and I'm an eCommerce company, and I'm interested in focusing on this time to first purchase kind of metric. You talked about how the first thing you have to do is establish a baseline of how long is it actually already taking people to get from first touch to first purchase? Walk me through exactly what you're doing to measure that. Are there certain tools that you put in place? Tracking tools, what is it you're looking at in order to determine that? Jason: Sure. I think only one person was tracking this that came to me, which makes my life easier. Most times what I look for is really I look for obviously their customer list, and I take their email addresses. Then unfortunately there's no tool to marry this stuff. I basically take a spreadsheet, an export of that, of all their customers, and then I go to their email service provider and I see when they opted in. Then I try to figure out, based on the dates around them becoming a customer and when they first opted in, and I kind of take a baseline, if you will, "baseline", on what their metric is. Then I have a conversation with the business owner to kind of gauge what their sales team sees, if they have that data, and try to come up with the best possible estimation that they have for this. A lot of times, I mean there's obviously a percentage plus or minus, but a lot of times it's pretty accurate if you know the data that's there. Because we all know when they purchased their first thing, we all know when they came onto the email list. If it happened to be that ... I try to discount those that have zero day initially, because a lot of times people in the email marketing world, and I'm sure a lot of your audience knows this, a lot of times people will opt in with a different email than they'll actually pay with. Kathleen: Yeah. Jason: If they opted in on the same day they purchased, for the baseline I take that away. Kathleen: Yeah, there's a lot of XYZ@123.com. Jason: Right. Kathleen: Don'temailme@pleasestop.com. It's amazing how creative people get with those fake email addresses. Jason: Absolutely. Obviously there's some experience factor in there for where I try to come up with that baseline. Then what I do once I have that, then I go into their email marketing platform and I essentially create rules that store when they become an opt in, but also when they actually purchase. Which is just a custom field that really just does some math to say, okay, they subscribed on this date, they became a customer today, let's minus the two, how many days are there? Over the first month or two of doing that, I kind of gauge whether that baseline estimation that we first did is accurate enough to go off of. Then we move from there more into the optimization, asking certain questions, things of that nature to try to shorten that time. Jason's Process For Shortening Time To First Purchase Kathleen: Let's talk about that stage next. I've come to you, I say, "I need help with this." You calculate those initial baseline metrics. Then what? It sounds like you're using personalization and targeted offers in order to pull people through that customer buying journey. Is there any kind of like discovery process or research that you're using in order to determine what the right offer is, or the right way to persuade them? Jason: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of it is, in my own research anyway, is looking at their analytics first. Seeing what people are actually looking at on the website, because a lot of times it's not what the owner thinks. I want to make sure that I have the data, because for me, I'm a data geek and the numbers don't lie. If the business owner tells me one thing and the data tells me another thing, then we have a conversation to try to reconcile it in some way. That's first things first, is really looking at Google Analytics, or any other metrics that they could possibly have. A lot of people use Hotjar and some of these other tools out there that help you with the customer interaction on your website. I start there. Then I have conversations with the business owner as well as certain key members on their team, if they have those kind of people. People like marketing, sales, people that are closer to the customer, if you will. Support teams, those sort of things, to really start to get an understanding of, and it's not even technical, it's just what kind of words do you hear all the time? What pain points people are struggling with. What opt ins do you have on your site that actually can map to a product? Because a lot of people, especially in the eCommerce space, they say, "Hey, we had a discount for this. Sign up on your first purchase." Is that working for you, or is something else working for you when you run a holiday sale instead? I try to gauge what that customer is thinking. Because we can assume that we're putting the best foot forward, but if the customer is coming to you depending on the product or service obviously, they're coming to you with two things in mind. One is their intent, they're intent on solving the problem. Is the page that they're on, or your product, or service, actually going to solve their problem that they have right now? Two, what's their motivation behind solving that problem? I really want to get down to those two things. It's not scientific in the way where there's actual numbers, at least initially. I want to make assumptions on that, and put campaigns out, look at welcome sequences. Look at all of these kind of things that they're already doing that we can inject some questions, or inject some relative links to blog posts, or products, or whatever, os that we can get a better gauge on what their intent is and what their motivation is without actually asking them. Kathleen: Now you talked about nurturing sequences, and onboarding workflows, and things like that. I do find it's very easy in this day and age to overwhelm audiences with email particularly. Do you have any rules of thumb that you use as far as like, how soon do we email them and how frequently do we email them? Anything as far as even style of email, because I know there's a lot of different opinions on very designed emails versus plain text. I'd love just on the topic of email to hear your thoughts. Jason: Yeah. I mean, that's a whole nother episode. Kathleen: I know. Jason: Yeah. To answer the first part of the question about how often, frequency, those kind of things. First I have to know what they're doing already. If you came to me and said, "Look, I do a once a month promotion." If you just switch that up to a daily, then your list is going to be obliterated and they're going to be like, "I don't even know who this person is." They're going to get high on subscribe rates. If you have a pretty regular cadence, say once a week or something of that nature, it's really just throw it out, if you want to add another email. Because for me, my business when I send emails, I get paid. I will always try to mix in emails where I can. For how I like to do it, I try to do it in a human way, not just like let's just keep sending links to podcasts and blog articles, or products, or services, or stuff. I try to have the subscriber opt into those things. You can do that in a way where if you had, let's just say you had a cadence of every single week on Tuesday you send out an email to your list. You could just send out an email on Tuesday saying, "Hey look, we're going to add another email, or two emails, we're going to have it on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday now, and we're going to talk about this. And if you're interested in that, just click this button." They're automatically opted in. You could do things in a more human way, and it goes back to that whole mom-and-pop philosophy is, I want the subscriber to tell me. All of this stuff allows you insight into them, into the subscriber at an individual subscriber level. If they're excited to hear more from you, then you know that, hey, well they may be interested in a product or service that I have that's outside of the free level. You could do those kind of things. You can surely incentivize people with discounts and all of those other things. While that stuff does have its place and works, for the long term, creating those raving fans and repeat buyers, it's all based on trust. The trust factor comes in where you're actually genuine with them and, "Hey, I have an offer, I'm going to do this. If you're interested, all you have to do is let me know." Kathleen: You talked earlier about some examples of results in terms of shortening that time span. I would love to hear a little bit more about that. Do you have a couple of maybe specific examples of it started out at this long, went to that long, and like what led to those key changes? Jason: Yeah. I mean, specifically with some of those results, the one that's interesting is that one that was almost two weeks and I shortened it to a day, inside a day. That was really based around, it is a digital product company, but they also had a service on the back end of it too. What it was, was the funnel was very linear. It was somebody opts in and we promote this product to you, and it was a flash sale. It was like within 24 hours you can buy this for 99% off. That kind of thing. If they didn't take you up on that, then you go into this long term nurture sequence, which was basically two emails a week. Out of that it was pitching that same product over and over again, but at full price. It was, I call it a soft pitch. It's more like, hey, you've seen them in the bottom of your emails I'm sure, like in the P.S., like hey, we also if you're interested in this, we have this product. Which worked fairly well, I mean, nine days to opt in to convert to a customer is good. What they wanted to do was they had a lot of different products that served a couple of different audiences. Immediately when they opted in, unless they opted in via a specific opt in, they didn't know which audience they were. What I wanted to do was I wanted to basically put that front center. I mentioned it a little bit earlier on beforehand, is we can know before they opt in what they've already looked at, through JavaScript and cookies and local storage on their browsers, and that's all in the tech world. If we know what they looked at, then we kind of know what audience they're in. Instead of just pitching them that one thing on the back end of the opt in, let's pitch them the product that makes sense to them. That was the first step, was to really try to put that in place, which made a huge impact. I mean, that was just, that initial just, hey, let's look at the blog posts that they're looking at, and store that data. How many did they look at? How frequently did they look at? Based on that, let's position that product offering that's that tripwire product, if you will, for the next 24 hours at that discount, that's the product that makes sense for that audience. That shortened it almost to three days immediately, because people were more receptive to that offer because it made sense to them. Then there were some tweaks we made to the landing page, to the copy, based on some feedback that we got from those people that actually bought the product during that time. We made some optimizations, and that even shortened the time to first purchase. Kathleen: It's interesting to listen to you talk about this, because obviously the examples are eCommerce, but in my head I keep asking myself, is there anything here that doesn't apply to another type of sale? For example, like a complex B2B sale. I'm not hearing anything that's so specific to eCommerce. It's really just, if I'm understanding you correctly, it's really just about looking more closely at their behavior, and using that behavioral information and those patterns that are created to serve up information that's more directly relevant to their interests. Is that right? Jason: Absolutely. I mean, it just goes back to business in general. If you go to a conference, let's say you go to a conference with all colleagues of yours, they're in a similar business or industry than you are. You're going to talk to them in a different way than if you're going to a higher level conference where your customers might be. It's also a matter of awareness of the person that's viewing your online store or your website. Have they never seen you before, or are they intimately familiar with you and they know your name, they know your services? It's that buyer journey that happens with everybody, whether they're buying a pack of gum or they're buying some service that's going to cost them $10,000 a month. Obviously there's sales cycles, and that all comes into play, but it's the same business. You want to earn that trust. You want to speak their language. If you know the problem that you're proposing a solution for, then that person's going to be more receptive to hearing you. When you hear, that's where the conversion is. It's a matter of just taking them along that journey in a proper way, whether it is a complex B2B or whether it's a transaction where you just pull out your credit card and put it in. How Difficult Is It To Implement? Kathleen: This sounds straightforward on the one hand, the concept is straightforward. Then on the other hand it sounds really intimidating in terms of being able to execute it. Can you talk through how complex this is, and is this something that the typical business needs to hire a developer to do for them, or are there tools out there that make it really easy to do this? Jason: Yeah. I mean, it's as complex as you want to make it really. I like to try to keep things as simple as possible. I mean, I even, I have a thing on my white board, what would this look like if it was simple? Because we can over engineer everything. Once you start thinking one thing, it leads you to another thing, and you're going down this long rabbit hole, and you're like, "Oh my god, I don't know how I'm going to even do this thing." What I try to do is, if you come to me and you have decent enough traffic, you have decent enough sales, and we can have a conversation that's around potentially segmenting your audience better, if you don't do all that already. By segment I mean more so than customers versus non customers. If you're actually doing anything in regards to helping your customers move along the journey, meaning are you doing regular email sequences? Are you blogging? Are you doing these other things? If you are, then it's as simple as starting to think about what problems or what products are related? Let's just say you have a product that solves a problem that, let's say a developer has. As a developer I might have a problem where I need more RAM, or more compute power. If I go to a website and it just says, "Hey, buy this hard drive, or buy this RAM, or buy this monitor." Okay, but if I clicked on a blog post of theirs that talked more about compute power for my computer, and then I went to their product page and then it gave me three products that could help me there, I'm more likely to buy from there because they've already positioned a couple of things based around what I know, and I didn't sign up or anything. You can just start thinking about the product that you have and what problems that solves. That will help you start to build these things out. Keep it simple. Write it down in a notebook, or write it down in a document. You don't need a overbuilt tool to do all this stuff, at least initially. We mentioned Shai before. Right Message is a tool that you can build these. You don't need code. They give you a piece of code to put on your website, but you can build these in a visual editor. There's other tools out there as well. Initially it's really just even that widget we talked about earlier about, hey, you might like this content. On a lot of WordPress websites you can build that. There's plugins out there that would help you do that stuff. You don't necessarily need the code for that either. Keep it simple if you haven't done it yet, and see what sort of results you get. I mean, if you come to me, and usually people that do come to me, they already have this idea, they have the traction. That's why I said it earlier on, it's an established online business that I help, because they have the traction, but they want to increase more sales, they want to increase better brand relationships with their customers. They kind of have an idea that they can do this, they're just not sure what the strategies and the methods to go about doing it. What Kinds Of Results Can You Expect? Kathleen: Yeah. Are there any rule of thumbs that you use for like what kind of improvements that, on average, you think businesses can expect to experience if they go from not being contextual or using personalization to once they've done it? Jason: Yeah. It's hard, it's really based around what the price point is, to be honest with you. I feel like if it's a sub $100 product and/or service, people are more impulsive and you could probably see a quicker uptick in the percentage based around that. If it's north of $100 thing, then it's going to be a slower growth. You kind of need a little bit more time and data to see what's actually going to work and pull the triggers. On the other side of that is that those that are north of $100, you could ask existing customers certain things, which I would suggest things like, where were you when you bought this? What problem did it solve? How has it been since? By asking those questions of existing customers, you can help shorten that on the front end of it. I mean for me it's such a general rule, but I always say you could get 3% to 5% of anybody you talk to, to buy something. Obviously that's a very general rule. I always want to push that a lot higher than the 5%. What I try to do is I try to get the pages in which people are landing on for the purchase like 30% or more. Trying to get the messaging right, trying to get the distractions away from the page, because that's what a lot of eCommerce sites do. Just case in point, look at Amazon, they don't do a lot of that. Once you start going into their checkout process, the closer to your wallet that you get with Amazon, they remove everything. A lot of people don't even realize it. A lot of customers anyway, don't realize that the navigation goes away, continue to shop goes away, contact us goes away. All of these things go away as you start moving closer and closer to actually paying. Who better than Amazon to follow? Because they have the traffic, they have the data, and they publish a lot of these experiments for people to look at. I always try to, obviously depending on the price, I try to figure out what their baseline is. I want to always try to 10x the ROI that they put into me for their business. Kathleen: That makes sense, yeah. I kind of figured the answer when I asked that question might be some form of, it depends, so thank you for humoring me and answering that. Kathleen's Two Questions Kathleen: Well I'm curious to hear your answers to the two questions I usually ask my guests. When it comes to inbound marketing specifically, who do you think is doing it really well right now? It could be a company or it could be a person. Jason: Yeah, I mean, as far as inbound marketing, I'd have to say somebody that does it really well is Chris Marr. He runs the Content Marketing Academy, and he's a marketer that obviously he runs workshops for larger companies. What he does well and how he talks about what he does, it's always it's like the softest sell possible, and then you're just like, "Hey, yeah, I want to go to Chris, because he knows what he's talking about and he gets great results." His methodology and everything he talks about, it makes perfect sense. For me, I've known Chris a few years now. I've had him on my own podcast. It's just, I don't know, it's simple but yet so highly effective that it's sometimes like, hey, this is easy. Kathleen: How did I wind up buying from him? Jason: Yeah. You wonder what's going on. Yeah, if it's somebody, I would recommend checking out Chris Marr if you haven't already. Kathleen: That's a good one. I'll put that link in the show notes. Then with digital marketing changing so quickly, and especially the field that you're in, it can be very hard to stay up to date on all the new developments. How do you personally stay educated? Jason: That's a tough one. I try to, because I toe the line between tech and marketing, there's a lot of noise. What I try to do is I try to curate a lot of what I see. For me, Twitter is my home away from home, if you will. I get educated through Twitter, and who I follow there, and really put together lists on my profile that are really targeted to specific people that are knowledgeable in the space. I'll go to Twitter first to just see what people are talking about, and things of that nature. If it comes up one, two, three times more than the first time that I see it, then I'm like, okay, let me see if this is something of interest. Then what I'll do is I'll sign up to specific newsletters. Some of the newsletters that I sign up to, I may only sign up to it for a month or two and the unsubscribe, but it'll get me the information that I really need at that given point in time. I really try to reduce the amount of noise and distraction, and so I kind of use that just in time learning strategy where, okay, Facebook's changing something in their ad algorithm or whatever, now while I don't do that, my clients do, so I want to be up to date on what they're doing, at least knowledgeable to have some sort of conversation if they ask me a question. I'll go check out that for a little while. I'll talk to some people that I know in the industry, say, "Hey, what's going on over here? Is this something I should pay attention to, or is this just noise?" It's really curated, and it's more outreach for me than letting it all come to me in a flood. Otherwise, I would never get any work done. Kathleen: Yeah. I hear that. Who are your top, let's say three favorite people to follow on Twitter? Jason: Well, that's tough. For business and products, I would say Justin Jackson is probably, he's always interesting to follow because he learns out loud. He tries things. He owns a product business himself, and he's been in the product game for a long, long time, and he knows about that space. In the online world for me, business wise, as far as product goes, Justin Jackson. Chris Marr I follow. He shares a lot of interesting content, marketing links, and strategies, and that sort of thing. I follow him. Then one that I've always followed for a long, long time, probably since day one of me signing up to Twitter, is Paul Jarvis. I've tried to model my business after what he does, which is I'm small potatoes compared to what he's able to do at this point. He's always remained small, and he's built his business designed around him and his lifestyle. That's how I've built my business over the past nine years, is around the life that I want to live, and so if I start going down the rabbit hole of thinking of scaling up, and hiring, and agencies, and growing in that world, while it's attractive, it's not actually what my long term game is. Seeing Paul saying, "Hey, I'm going offline for a couple of months. I'll see you in December." Whatever it is that he does, it's like, oh yeah, that's why I do what I do. He's kind of almost like a grounding rod for me. Kathleen: That's interesting. I'll have to check him out. Any particular newsletters? You mentioned that you subscribe to a few newsletters. Are there any that have stood the test of time, that you haven't unsubscribed from, that you really love? Jason: Val's is one. Kathleen: Yeah, Val's great. Jason: Yeah. She's one. Another one that I really like is Margot, what's her last name? (Margot Aaron) She's a straight shooter. She kind of pokes, she's a marketer herself, she's a copywriter, but she pokes fun at marketing. She's one that I follow because it's like, hey, here's a headline that you're supposed to read, and here's a button that you're supposed to click, but if you don't really want to, you don't have to. It's kind of like allows me to inject my own personal brand into what I do. Because as a business owner, I know that my customers come to me, they could get what I do by going to anybody that does a similar thing, but they come to me and they become a customer of mine because there's something that I'm putting out there that they jibe with. My personality comes through in a lot of what I do, my website and all that. I wear being a New Yorker on my sleeve. I'm a pretty straight shooter too. I try to over communicate in some respects with my clients. They sort of appreciate that, and so I call my clients on certain things, I wrangle them in when they need to be wrangled in, and I challenge them. That is what most of my clients have said that that's why they stay on with me, is because I don't just do what they ask me to do. I help them along the way. Kathleen: Yeah. That's great. If you remember Margot's last name, let me know, because I'll put that link in the show notes as well. Jason: Will do. Definitely. You Know What To Do Next Kathleen: Sounds like a really good one. Well if you're listening and you like what you heard or learned something new, of course I always love it when you leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. If you know somebody else doing kick-ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because they could be my next interview. Thank you so much Jason. This was really interesting. Jason: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.  

The show opens with Jeff talking about turning in the manuscript for new/revised edition of Hat Trick. The guys also talk about Captain Marvel. Will reviews Wanted-Bad Boyfriend by TA Moore and IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox. Jeff reviews Diversion by Eden Winters. Jason T. Gaffney and Kevin Held join Jeff & Will to discuss their new movie project, the romantic comedy/paranormal themed Out of Body. They recorded the audiobook of the novelization, which was written by Suzanne Brockmann. We also find out about their history-based podcast, The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason. Complete shownotes for episode 180 are at BigGayFictionPodcast.com. Book Reviews Here’s the text of this week’s book reviews: Diversion by Eden Winters, narrated by Darcy Stark. Reviewed by Jeff Eden Winters Diversion series has been recommended to me for some time now and I finally took the leap. This first book was first published in 2012 but just came out in audio in October 2018 with narration from new to me voice artist Darcy Stark, who does a great job with both the suspense and romance. This enemies-to-lovers, workplace romantic suspense story centers on agents for the Southeastern Narcotics Bureau, Richmond “Lucky” Lucklighter and Bo Schollenberger. Lucky’s nearing the end of his forced stint on the job–forced as it was his way out of jail. Bo is new and eager, but is also at the job because of incidents in his past. They end up working together to bring down a ring of drug diversion and insurance fraud that involves a doctor, a drug manufacturer and a drug destruction company. I fell in love with gruff, no nonsense Lucky right away. He’s extremely good at his job, mostly because he used to be on the other side of the law. He exudes frustration and irritation at what he has to do and why and yet there’s a teddy bear in there too because he cares about getting the job done right. The friction that’s stirred up when Lucky’s saddled with mentoring Bo is sublime. Lucky’s looking to ride a desk during his last few weeks at the bureau, but his boss has other ideas. Bo’s very green in terms of what he has to do here–but he is ex-military so he’s no pushover either. He can take what Lucky dishes out and it pisses the senior agent off… and eventually Bo gives back as good as he gets. The friction gets explosive as Lucky battles with himself about the feelings he develops for Bo. The other thing the friction brings is a ton of humor. Lucky and Bo know how to push each other’s buttons–whether it’s blasting Billy Ray Cyrus, forcing healthy eating habits or being messy. It’s a wonderful odd couple pairing that morphs in a beautiful way as it becomes less about antagonizing and more about a sweet nudging of one another to just maybe move things to another level in their relationships. Both men have complicated backstories that make you feel for even more for them. Lucky ended up at the bureau after going to prison for the part he played in a large scale drug operation. He’d been in love with the guy behind that operation and when it all came crashing down Lucky was sure he wanted no part of loving anyone again. The pain Eden created for Lucky is devastating, which makes him all the more loveable when he’s able to come out of his shell. Bo did illegal things to help an ex and ended up taking illegal substances to the point that it’s very difficult for him to be around the drugs in a Pharmacy, which his job requires. There’s also abuse in his past and Lucky’s careful to keep Bo away from triggers as much as he can. The lengths he goes to keep Bo feeling safe are extremely sweet. Eden takes great care in how backstory is presented. Once the men get past their posturing and disdain for each other, they peel back they reveal themselves in a very natural way–as friends, coworkers and eventually lovers do. The good and bad are offered in equal measure and it’s perfect relationship development. The only thing I wanted in this story that I didn’t get was Bo’s point of view. I would’ve loved to know what was rattling around in his head. Not to take away from Lucky though as he was quite the good narrator and this one point doesn’t take away from my love of the book. The Diversion series is up to book seven as of January 2019–with the third book released in audio in February 2019–so I’ve got some catching up to do. I’m looking very forward to that. IRL: In Real Life by Lucy Lennox & Molly Maddox. Reviewed by Will In Real Life combines the classic alpha billionaire character trope with the time-honored scenario of two characters who are combative in real life, but are secretly corresponding with one another and falling in love. Which is the long-winded way of saying it’s a similar set up as the classic movies Shop Around the Corner, You’ve Got Mail, In the Good Old Summertime, and the musical She Loves Me. The way that the characters write to each other has changed and evolved, but the premise remains the same. There’s also hints of enemies to lovers and opposites attract. This book is ripe with tropey goodness. So what’s it all about you might ask? Nice guy geek Conor is in New York to sell his mother’s bio-med technology to a ruthless CEO. The evening before his big presentation he decides to live a little and begins sexting with who he thinks is the sexy hotel bartender. It’s not. The text exchange he ends up having with a stranger, who he calls Trace, is amazing, and through several flirtatious and super-hot online conversations, they begin a fling. At the meeting the next morning, Wells Grange recognizes Conor thanks to the Dalek tie he is wearing. Conor is the hot and horny guy he sexted with the night before. His first inclination is to use this information as leverage in their business negotiations. But Wells quickly begins to fall for Conor, both the sexy online version and the awkward real-life version. As they work through the contracts for the sale, Wells continues his deception. They spend several days together and get to know one another, Conor unaware that Wells and Trace are the same person. We follow our heroes, almost in real time, as they fall in love while working together, going out to dinner, and taking carriage rides in Central Park. Once the business deal is finalized, Wells and Conor finally give in to their attraction and sleep with each other. Needless to say, it’s amazing and life altering for both of them. But, as is the case in stories like these, Conor finally puts two and two together before Wells can come clean about his sexting alter ego. Conor is humiliated and justifiably furious. He packs his bags and returns to North Carolina, with zero intention of ever speaking to Wells again. And rightly so. I’m going to be super upfront with you guys, there are certain aspects of the billionaire trope that I personally find problematic. I was on board with Wells and Conor for most of the story, but there were moments when I had a hard time dealing with certain aspects of Wells’ alphahole personality. In my view, if the ending of this book was going to be believable, Wells was going to have to move mountains and pull off one of the biggest mea culpas in romance history. It may not have been the biggest, but Lucy Lennox and Molly Maddox crafted a finale that was truly heartfelt and genuinely appropriate for our two heroes. To make amends, Wells makes sure Conor’s sick mom is well taken care of and part of an experimental treatment program (her illness was the reason they needed the money from the business deal). Later, when Conor is unable to attend a Comic convention to unveil an important new development in his gaming business, Wells steps in, and personally gives a rousing presentation on Conor’s behalf. Wells proves he isn’t the billionaire alphahole he seems. Yea for true love and happily-ever-afters! Interview Transcript Jeff: Welcome back to the show, Jason and Kevin. Kevin: Thank you. Jason: Hello. Thank you. Kevin: Nice to be back. How you been? Jeff: Awesome. Jeff: Well, we had you on before, we were talking all about “Analysis Paralysis.” But you guys have a lot more going on besides that movie. You’re actually in pre-production right now on a film called “Out of Body.” Jason: Yeah. Jeff: Tell us what that one’s about. Jason: So “Out of Body” is basically a story where it’s a friends-to-lover rom-com. And basically, Malcolm, who’s Kevin’s character, has his body stolen from him and he kind of ends up as a spirit for a while. And he has to prove that he exists to me, Henry, and then when that finally happens, we do some magic, we fight some demons, we might get the body back, there’s definitely a happily ever after because it’s a rom-com. Kevin: You and your end happily-ever-afters. Jason: Yeah. Jeff: It’s important. Kevin: I know, I know. But I just want to the rom…just one time I want a rom-com to be…it’s mostly romantic and funny but everyone does die. Jason: Or they die hilariously. Kevin: It’s a rom-com drama. Jason: Death by rubber chicken. Jeff: And what was kind of the inspiration behind this movie this time? Jason: I don’t even know how this idea came in my head. But I was sleeping one day and I woke up and I was like, “Oh, that’d be really cool. A movie where someone’s dead but they wanted to be together but then they didn’t get to be together. And then they have to fight to get their body back and come back to life.” And so I wrote a kind of a similar but different kind of script. And we did a table read, and my mom was a part of the table read. And she was like, “I love the story you have here. Can I take it and can I change a lot of it and make it like super romance with the comedy?” And so this particular movie and book and audiobook is definitely heavier on the romance than the comedy, as opposed to “Analysis Paralysis.” But it’s, in my opinion, really, really good because the romance really makes…it’s gripping, it really gets you right in the heartstrings. And she basically saw what I was going for and was able to finesse it and really kind of mold it into what my kind of original vision was and then some. So I’m really psyched about it. It’s got a little bit of everything. Will: Yeah, not too long ago, I talked about the novelization of “Out of Body” here on the show. Jason, your mom, Suzanne Brockmann, of course, wrote that novelization, it was rather amusing. Like, I think in the forward she kind of does like a behind the scenes thing where she kind of tells that story where she says, “Jason, this is great. But do you mind if I take it and make it better?” Kevin: Yeah. Jason: Yeah. And here’s the thing, I am all about that. Like the filmmaking, it’s such a collaborative process and storytelling can be a really collaborative process. And I want to make good movies. And so I was really happy with the script that I had written, but when someone who’s as great of a writer as my mom is comes and says, “I want to have fun with this and let me just see what I can do with it,” I’m like, “Hell yeah. Take it. Have at it.” Yeah. Kevin: And the end result is really a script, a novel, and a script that really looks like if brilliant improviser and plot maker and gay comedy guy let his script be taken over by a bestselling romance novelist, what would happen, it would be this. You know. And so it’s really got great, great aspects of all of those elements. Will: Yeah, I really enjoyed the book and the audiobook as well. And I think it’s a really unique opportunity for people who are interested in “Out of Body,” the movie, to check out the audiobook and sort of, it’s essentially like a preview of what they’re going to be getting when the film comes out to the public. Can you give us a little bit of an idea about what it was like to kind of get into the material early before you even like were thinking about shooting by recording the audiobook? Kevin: I can tell you for my part, like, since I’m not one of the writers on this, which is, you know, traditional for me because I’m not usually the writer on a project that I’m acting in. But it’s completely unprecedented to have a novel that you get to perform about the thing before you even film the script. You know, so we get…like as an actor, it’s a freaking dream because I have…so you know how actors have to create subtext and everything, I just have to go to the book, you know, it’s like, “Don’t worry. I don’t have to make it.” It’s already been written down for me. So if I’m wondering, like, what’s happening for Malcolm now, what’s going on there? What’s the deep, deep part of it? It’s already written out for me now. So I would say, so the book is available. It’s on, it’s called “Out of Body.” It’s on Audible.com. And I would say, don’t deprive yourself of the opportunity to say the book was better. Jason: Yeah. And, you know, it was really cool to do the audiobook in general because it was our first audiobook for both of us as narrators. And when we were talking about doing it, we were talking with my mom about it and I was interested in the idea of recording it in a way where it was more like a radio show where we are our characters’ dialogue voices all the time, even if it’s in the other person’s point of view. Whoever’s point of view reads the descriptive stuff in the chapters. But if Malcolm’s speaking, even though I’m the narrator of that chapter, he still says his line, and he still says the lines of the other characters that he had been assigned and vice versa for me. And that was really kind of fun to do because, you know, how often do you get to do kind of a radio show acting gig? And it was also really fun for me as a director to get to do this with Kevin in advance, because, like, he now really knows the story and I know he knows the story. So I know that when he comes to set, that’s going to be really easy. And I got into the head of the other characters as well reading them, and that’ll help me be able to hold my other actors hands and kind of with them through their parts, and still allow them to bring what they want to bring to the role and have it blossom into how great it can be. Kevin: Yeah, and that’s like all separate and apart from the experience of actually recording the audiobook, which you might think was done him some and then me some on consecutive days or anything, but it was actually live together. So we actually recorded in a space that had two recording booths in it. We could both hear each other so that when I am narrating a section and it’s his line, I can hear him do it. And then I jump back in. So it was live editing, like, to take out any breaths or anything, or mess-ups or anything, so, but we got to…you know, it was amazing because I had him in my head the whole time doing it, too. So that was wonderful. It’s a great experience. Jeff: That’s amazing, especially how it connected to your even now pre-production process that you’re involved in because you’re getting ready to shoot in about a month from when we’re recording. In pre-production, give everybody kind of an idea of what that means. What’s going on as you get ready for your 12 days of shooting? Jason: So basically, what I just did was go through each of the scenes and break them up on a piece of paper so that now I have the page count number, like how many pages each scene is. Kevin: These are them. Jason: Oh, yeah. Little strip paper… Kevin: Each one of these is a scene. Jason: And basically, the page count, when it starts, who is in the scene, all that stuff. Because I need to…you know I don’t have every actor every day. I’m going to have Kevin every day because he’s one of the leads. But there’s other parts in it where they’re only going to film for one day…anywhere from one to three days. And so you have to plan their scenes on the same day. And this time, we’re going to actually be filming in two different locations because our neighbors next door sold their house to flippers and they’re doing construction and it’s been kind of never-ending. So we can’t film when there’s kind of heavy construction going on in this house. So we’re going to do a lot of stuff at my father in law’s house and then will come get the rest of it after they’re done here. And so I’ve been doing that with my dad and breaking it into those days while simultaneously working with my cinematographer Nacia to map out which shots are needed for each scene and what angles are we doing. So I put little maps on the other side of the table here. Basically, me drawing out the room layout and doing little circles with an M for Malcolm and an H or Henry, and the arrows pointing they go here and then they go here… Kevin: Oh my god. And this isn’t even talking about how to deal with SAG paperwork or any of the art direction that he’s doing, or any of the clearances that he’s getting for this or that kind of thing. Jason: We’ve got a, we’re going to have a… Kevin: He’s a bit of a doer. Jason: We got Andrew Christian giving us underwear… Kevin: Oh, yeah, we have Andrew Christian underwear over here. Jason: And I’m working with some other companies too. So Outfit is a gay like sports good wear, they’ve given me a patent to us for the movie. Kevin: He’s been stenciling t-shirts and… Jason: Hand design t-shirts specific to the characters. I’m going to be making him a specific shirt three times because he wears the same outfit the whole movie and so if anything spills on it, it’s got to be good and not spilled upon because he magically can’t get stains. And so it’s intense, there’s a lot going on. Like Pinterest is my best friend. I’ve been learning all about how to make DIY Halloween decorations. Because again, when you’re low budget, you can’t spend, you know, $3,000 on set design. You can spend like $200, and so you have to get a little crafty. You have to start thinking like, “Okay, I’ve got five pages of construction paper and a pair of scissors and some tape, how going to make this look like I spent a lot of money on it?” Kevin: He’s like MacGyver. So that’s his experience with pre-production, mine’s a little bit different because I’m not all the hyphenates. So I’m busy making no changes at all to my daily routine. Jeff: You do have a script to learn. Kevin: Sure, when I get it. Jason: It’s in the mail. Kevin: We’re at your house. Jeff: Oh my goodness. Jason: The creating part, like creating the artwork, it actually makes me feel calm. The paperwork stresses me out. And so Matt, thankfully, jumps on that grenade and deals with SAG-AFTRA and making sure that all the paperwork’s there and all the money is in the right place and all that stuff. So thank you, Matt. Jeff: Now, we should say Matt is your husband, so he’s in the production family. Jason: Yes. Kevin: Yeah. Will: So now that our listeners know how completely awesome and funny this project is going to be, can you give us a little bit of info about the Indiegogo campaign? Jason: We have an Indiegogo campaign, basically we crowd-funded “Out of Body” on Kickstarter first, a successful crowdfunding campaign last year. and Indiegogo came to us and said, “We’d like to do an in-demand campaign for you.” So we have an open-ended campaign on Indiegogo right now, where you can help sponsor the film help and get some fabulous rewards, such as DVDs of “Out of Body” when it finally is all finished, you can get DVDs of “Analysis Paralysis,” our last feature film. Kevin: I’m going to get these down from the thingy here. Jason: So you can show people. Kevin: You can actually, because now we’re in the second feature film that stars the two of us. Like we got other projects that I have to do with like if you’re your fans of “Analysis Paralysis,” or perhaps the audiobook of “Out of Body,” you can get these copies, you can get copies of all that stuff. And so as we are on the way to becoming things of all media. Jason: Yeah, exactly. And yeah, so if you go to indiegogo.com and you go, indiegogo.com/projects/out-of-body-a-feature-length-lgbtq-rom-com-movie/, it’s a very long title. Kevin: Really, why don’t you go to indiegogo.com and search “Out of Body.” Yes. Jeff: Or just come to our show notes, it’ll be much easier. Will: Yes, do that. Kevin: Exactly. Go to “Big Gay Podcast” website and it’s going to be in the show notes. Jason: Another place you can find out information about “Out of Body” in the future and any sort of campaigns we’re having, etc., is if you go to tinyletter.com/mypethippo and join our newsletter, you’ll be able to find out things about “Analysis Paralysis” or “Out of Body,” or our podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason,” all sorts of fun stuff. And yeah, so and basically indie film, it’s low budget. So every dollar really does make a difference. Like if we get enough money to buy a better meal for the cast and crew, everybody’s spirits raised, it gets raised up a little higher, you know, or we can afford an extra day of filming, or we can afford…it really does matter. So thank you to everyone who has supported us so far. And thank you to everyone who comes and supports us after this. Kevin: Yes, indeed. Jeff: Now, Kevin had this wonderful term about you guys, you know, essentially taking over media. You mentioned the podcast, “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason.” It’s a comedy podcast about history. How did this idea spark? Because this just adds to you, I imagine, having to research these historical things. Kevin: Now, Jason does all the research for this, you know, and that’s huge. Like, because basically, he doesn’t have enough to do. But the impetus for the podcast, which is “The Bright Side with Kevin and Jason” is, you know, there’s so much bad news all the time. And my mom taught me how to look on the bright side of stuff, you know. If I got one thing from my mom, it was to…I would always complain about this or that and she would constantly remind me of there’s something good here, you know, and you have to find that. And so that’s really the gem of this, it’s really the heart of that show is that, especially when you look around at the news right now, there’s so much bad stuff that is going on. But you have to also recognize that bad stuff creates the opposite reaction. And so who is making the good out of that? You know, who is looking at that and reacting to it in a way of love, or in a way of furthering acceptance, or you know, who’s looking at the transgender ban, for example, that was finally instituted by the Supreme Court? And who is saying, you know, I want to reach out and tell my trans brothers and sisters that you are people and you are valuable and your service is useful and we love you? You know, so who’s doing that? You know, and so that’s what the podcast really kind of focuses on. We do wallow in some tragedy on the podcast because every week we take a historical episode of some varying degree of tragic-ness and talk about it. But then we also, every episode, find out what good that led to. Jason: And it kind of came about a long time ago after “Analysis Paralysis,” like Kevin mentioned in the last episode, we talked a little bit about how we met on a student film and basically got along really well, really quickly, and then we started hanging out together with our husbands and going on double dates, and so it kind of formed this bond. And after “Analysis Paralysis,” which was so much fun, it was 10 days of basically seeing Kevin and laughing and having a good time, I was like, “I don’t want to wait a year-and-a-half for the next project. I want to do something now with you.” Kevin: The experience of just chatting about a topic on a set or something was so much fun and we thought, “We should bottle this.” And then we thought, “You can.” There’s a method for this that’s called a podcast, and that’s what started. Yeah, you know, so now I get to come over here every damn week. Jason: Yeah, come to the Valley. You’re welcome. Kevin: Yeah, when I moved to Westwood I was hoping that my second bedroom would be a good place to record. But it’s not, it’s not good. Too much noise there. The valley’s a lot of things, but it is quiet. Jason: It is quiet. Unless they’re doing construction next door. Kevin: Right. Jeff: You could just turn that second bedroom into a soundproof area. Kevin: No, actually, currently, we didn’t have any…we moved from a house that had a lot of storage into a house that had another bedroom, but no storage. So that second bedroom has just become basically the id of our house. You know, everything’s like ahhhhh, you know? Jason: It’s like in “Harry Potter,” what’s that closet? Kevin: The room of requirements? Jason: Yes. Kevin: It’s the room of please don’t go in there actually. Will: Now, guys, I’m curious. How do you choose which historical events to feature and how much research goes into each episode? Kevin: That’s 100% question for Jason because though I feel that the podcast is a 50/50 pursuit, because Jason does all of the research for the topics that we do, and I don’t ever know what we’re going to talk about until I get here, but then I do all the web mastering and editing and I put up the shownotes and I do all of that stuff. So I feel like we end up spending around the same amount of time on things. Jason: Yeah. So basically, generally about a day of work I kind of surf the web, I find a topic that…like I kind of search, you know, the rabbit hole as to like what kind of weird historical thing is this? And I’ll like Google really weird stuff so my search history… Kevin: Yeah, they’re coming for you. Jason: …completely messed at this point. But like, you know, I’ll look up like “wild strikes historical funny” to see what I get from it. But honestly, there’s been a ton of them I’ve gotten through recommendations of friends and family and listeners of the podcast, and we really encourage listeners to throw ideas at us because there’s some really obscure events in history that I don’t know about that I would love to know about and I could easily find it if I knew to search for it. And so if anyone out there listening has weird events, definitely tweet me or email me. Kevin: You can find him @jasontgaffney on Twitter, and tell him and I don’t want to know about it. Jeff: That’s right. Kevin has to stay in the dark. Kevin: Right. Jason: So what I look for also, I try to look for topics where there’s a lot of tragedy, but you can still make fun of it. Like, if it’s a natural disaster, I try to find one where people made bad decisions with the natural disaster, not that it’s just, like, everyone got screwed and they tried to do the right thing, but they still got screwed because you can’t really make fun of those people. That’s just sad. Kevin: And mean. And it’s really not. I mean, I know we’re talking about a lot of tragedy, and that’s kind of what we focus on. But it’s not a cruel show. It’s not a Schadenfreude, really, because the ultimate goal is to find out what the hopeful aspect of it, who turned that situation into something good, you know. Jason: And you’d be surprised, like, we generally can find it. I don’t think we found one yet where there’s really nothing, no bright side to it. Kevin: No. Because the arc of history is long and you never know what the end result of a pebble, you know, when a pebble goes into a puddle, you don’t know how farther in they’re going to go, you know, and so, like, we talked about that event but that could lead to something incredible later, you know. Jeff: For you, Kevin, since you come in cold to these, what’s been of the episode so far that you’re like, “What? What did I just hear?” Kevin: Oh, my God. Well, the “Empire” panic, for example, has been insane. Like, I have a feeling when I post the episodes, I have a feeling like I hope…My mom and I listened to the Christmas episode over Christmas. And at the end of it, she said, “That was funny and I learned some stuff.” So that’s what…it was like I was, “Oh, good. There we go.” That’s what I would like people to have from it. Is like, “Oh, I enjoyed that, you know, conversation. That was fun and stuff.” But also, “God, who knew?” Yeah, that’s amazing. Because he’s pretty good at this, every episode there’s gonna be some point where I’m like, “Are you kidding? Human beings did this,” you know? It’s always, “Yes, they did,” good Lord. Jason: It’s also it’s gotten way more fun to do the research than it initially was because I was really nervous the first couple episodes to like, “Oh, my God, is this going to be funny? How can I make this funny?” And I was trying a little like…we actually have a couple of episodes that just never aired because I was trying too hard as opposed to just seeing that, yeah, that was absurd. I don’t need to say anything except what they said. And now that I’ve kind of mastered that to a degree. I mean, I’ll keep getting better as time goes on. But now I can really see like as I’m reading stuff, I’ll be like, “Oh, I know that Kevin’s gonna hear that and go, ‘Stop it.'” And then he’s gonna call it out, call the absurdity of it. I don’t need to do anything except, say, like, you know, “And then she picked up the knife and stabbed her own foot.” And it’s like, “Why?” Kevin: Spoiler alert. Jeff: Did you have a knack for history before this, Jason? Or did this just kind of happen? Jason: So I’ve always loved history. I always love the idea of history. When I was actually a little kid, I used to play with blocks a lot. And it’s probably why I like being a producer and a storyteller. I used to have like this giant castle and a giant village and an army of bad guys and I acted out this soap opera for years with the royal family and all that. And I was fascinated with the Romanovs and stuff so I kind of like did a little spoof on them. And so I kind of created like my own worlds, and history and stuff. And so when I can find sites that tell historical stories like a story, which is what history should be told as because it essentially is our story, it’s really fun. It’s really exciting to read it and be like, “No, oh, my goodness, that person’s totally the villain.” And then you read a couple more paragraphs, and you’re like, “Oh, no, they’re misguided. They have a heart of gold. They didn’t know.” And then five pages later, you’re like, “No, they’re just a dick.” And it’s exciting, it’s riveting, it gets you on the of the edge of your seat constantly with how people just constantly mess up. And then occasionally, you have a hero who’s just like, actually a good person, you’re like, “What’s the catch?” So, yeah, you know, history is really fun, especially when it’s told with a fun storytelling lens because… Kevin: And I think that’s like the thrust of the podcast is also it’s about the topic, sure, but it’s also just about how Jason and I interact with each other. And we just have such a fun friendship. And I don’t mean that it’s fun from the inside. I hope it is, but it’s fun from the inside of it. So I have such a good time with him that whatever we’re talking about is going to be fun for me. Jeff: That’s awesome. So besides “Out of Body” and more podcast episodes, what else is coming up for you both? Kevin: I may never work again. Who knows? Jason: We’ve actually started writing the sequel to “Analysis Paralysis” with the hope of filming it at the end of the year, with the additional hope of trying to film it in Palm Springs. Kevin: First time hearing of that. Really? Jeff: Breaking news. Kevin: I love Palm Springs. Jason: We’re gonna do what we can to make it work. And it would require assistance from the Palm Springs community, sure, help house us and give us locations and stuff. Kevin: It’s gonna be all on the gondola. Only there. Jason: What gondola? Kevin: The gondola up to the mountain thing. Jason: Oh, yeah, that gondola. Kevin: The whole thing is set on the gondola. Jason: I was thinking like the gondola with a little stick… Kevin: Yeah, the canals in Palm Springs. Jason: But another thing that I’m actually working on is my dad and I wrote a couple of novellas that you can get on Amazon. Kevin: What are they called? Jeff: “California Comedy Series.” Jason: The “California Comedy Series.” Yes. And I wrote a version of “Fixing Frank” with the hopes to get that kind of ball rolling. And it’s definitely a film that requires a bigger budget than what we have right now. But I’m starting to get those wheels in motion for you know, movie four, five, six sometime in the near future. And so yeah, that’s kind of what I’m working on. Kevin: We keep cranking them out. If people will keep putting them on screens and things, we’ll keep making them. Jason: The goal is to make people laugh. I feel like that’s why I was put on Earth and I feel like that’s why you were put on Earth. Kevin: Well, yeah. I know am laughing whenever I see you so that’s probably true. Jeff: Do we get new “California Comedy” anytime soon? Jason: I have been talking about that with my dad, we actually have a couple that are in the works, it’s just trying to figure out when we have a good time to sit down and edit it. I think after “Out of Body,” I’ll be able to take a look back at one of them that we wrote a while ago and kind of tweak it because there were a couple of things that just never felt right. And so it’s just figuring out how to fix those kinds of plot holes. And then hopefully that’ll be on the market before the end of 2019. Jeff: Excellent. And Kevin, what about you, anything you want to throw out for people to keep an eye out for? Kevin: Super excited about the podcast, actually. You know, going into production on “Out of Body” is really, really exciting. I don’t have a lot of acting projects coming up after that, that I can think of right now. But that’s kind of the nature of acting projects. Jeff: Sure. Kevin: You know, and so the podcast is where you can find us weekly up until the end…and actually, we make announcements there about projects that do come up for us, you know, in the interim. So, you know, to be a loyal listener to the show would be the best way to find out about what’s new with us. You know. Jason: Oh, and I almost forgot. We’re going to try in some way whether it’s self-published or with some other company helping us, the goal is to turn the “California Comedy Series” into audiobooks as well, similar to “Out of Body.” Jeff: Oh, fantastic. So both of you voicing? Jason: Yeah, for two of them. One of them, the plan is to have my good friend David Singletary come in as the role of Mike since that role is African American. And my friend David Singletary is African American and I’m all about… Kevin: Kevin Held is very much not. Jason: I’m all about own voices reading parts and stuff like that. And he’s great. You’re going to love him. Kevin: He is great. I’m a little jealous, but I’m okay. Jeff: Well, guys, thank you so much for telling us about “Out of Body” and the podcast. We wish you much success with those. Jason: Well, thank you. Kevin: Well, much success with your own podcast, gentlemen. Jason: Thank you, yes.