Podcast appearances and mentions of kit parks

Adventure Travel, Worldwide, Podcasting, TrekkingKit ParksPodcast HostActive Travel AdventuresHi, I'm Kit Parks.  I discovered adventure travel when I impulsively joined a friend backpacking volcanoes in Nicaragua when I was 56, and got hooked.Adventure travel - a foreign concept to me until that fateful adventure - turned my world around and galvanized me to start the popular Active Travel Adventures podcast.  If I hadn't heard about adventure travel, then maybe others hadn't either, and I wanted to spread the word.On the show, I seek to inspire and empower others to lead a bigger life through adventure travel.  I encourage folks to step outside of their comfort zone, train, and then go on an epic adventure.  The show features adventures that regular folks can do on their vacation.Over the past six years, I've hiked, biked and paddled my way across all seven continents and have never looked back.https://activetraveladventures.com/SummaryIn this conversation, Kit Parks, the host of the Active Travel Adventures podcast, shares her travel journey and insights into adventure travel. She discusses her transition from being a workaholic to embracing travel and adventure. Kit emphasizes the importance of taking small steps outside of one's comfort zone and the value of training and preparation. She also provides advice for finding a compatible travel partner and highlights the need for women to consider safety when traveling. Kit shares her favorite travel experiences and reveals her dream destination. In this conversation, Kit Parks shares her journey of discovering walking holidays in Scotland and how it inspired her to start a podcast to spread the word about adventure travel. She discusses the importance of inspiring real people to go on adventures and shares transformational stories from her adventure trips. Kit and Jason also explore the benefits of adventure travel, including personal growth and the power of connection. They emphasize the role of shared experiences in bonding and encourage listeners to go out and explore the world. Kit provides information about her website, ActiveTravelAdventures.com, as a resource for adventure travel information and inspiration.TakeawaysTake small steps outside of your comfort zone to build confidence in adventure travel.Training and preparation are key to feeling confident and capable during adventures.Consider safety and choose travel partners who align with your interests and travel style.Embrace opportunities for travel and adventure now, rather than waiting for retirement.Japan's Kumano Kodo trail is a dream destination for Kit Parks. Adventure travel can be a transformative experience that inspires personal growth and self-confidence.Shared experiences in adventure travel create strong bonds and connections between people.Adventure travel can be accessible to everyone, regardless of athletic ability or experience.ActiveTravelAdventures.com is a valuable resource for adventure travel information and inspiration. Learn more about the Big World Made Small Podcast and join our private community to get episode updates, special access to our guests, and exclusive adventure travel offers at bigworldmadesmall.com.

In this episode, Kit Parks, Entrepreneur and Host of the Active Travel Adventures Podcast who has traveled to almost 50 countries and all 7 continents, joins us to share her story and the magic of adventure travel.

What is your retirement dream?  Will you travel to exotic places? Will you try new foods and meet new people?  What will your adventures in these places look like?  Biking? Kayaking? Hiking?  In today's episode we meet Kit Parks and what an adventure she is on!  Thank you for joining us!

Kit Parks combs the planet to find the best multi-day active travel experiences for fit folks like yourself. She shares her findings with you on her website, in her twice a month podcast (also called Active Travel Adventures). Kit is a 57 year old widow that discovered adventure travel AFTER she turned fifty. All of the adventures are something that she can do, and so can YOU if you are reasonably fit, especially if you do a little pre-trip training. The common denominator is that on all of these adventure vacations, you have to MOVE! You're going to have to hike, bike, paddle, horseback ride, or somehow self-propel yourself from one place to the next – sometimes in combination! Often these trips have a cultural component, such as a regional cooking class or wine tasting, or some other immersion with the locals.

This week on the podcast we welcome Kit Parks to the show. Kit is someone who discovered the joys of adventure travel at the age of 50 and has embraced it fully ever since. In the interview she talks about that experience, all the amazing places she's been, and more importantly, the great experiences and people she's met along the way. After falling in love with adventure travel, she has also launched two podcasts—Active Travel Adventures and the Adventure Travel Show—to share her passion with listeners. She's even gone so far as to put together a great primer for Adventure Podcast listeners on a variety of subjects, including how to train for adventure travel, how to save money both on and for travel, and an adventure travel guide. You can access and download that information for free here.  Before Kit joins us on the show, Dave and Kraig have a rundown of the latest adventure news, with stories about China re-measuring the height of Everest once again, a man who is attempting to visit every country on the planet without using air travel, and an ocean rower who came up just short of setting a new age record. Later, the guys take a look at two new products, with Kraig reviewing the Goal Zero Nomad 50 solar panel, while Dave offers his thoughts on the Bison Rolling Grill. Other Show Notes Watch The Last Dance on ESPN/Netflix  

Kit Parks interviews three top adventure travel tour industry leaders about how they are coping with the coronavirus pandemic and its effect on the travel industry, how they are handling upcoming and future travel bookings, postponements and cancellations, what silver linings they’ve discovered, their outlook for the future and what travellers can do to help their favorite tour companies get through this crisis. Our guests today include Paul McDonald with Active Adventures based in Queenstown, New Zealand, Dan Austin of Austin Adventures from Billings, Montana , and Jim Johnson of BikeTours.com from Chattanooga, TN. Check out the website for the 10 Ways YOU can safely plan your travels in this new era HERE.  You'll see lots of pics, videos and links that will inspire you during these unusual times.   CONNECT WITH ME!   Email me Instagram Pinterest Facebook Facebook Group Twitter Links Mentioned on this Show: Part One Part Two Part Three Mont Blanc Machu Picchu Patagonia Annapurna Nepal Dolomites Italian Lakes Bolivia Cycling the Stilleto Heel of Italy (Puglia) Antarctica Costa Rica Tanzania safari Glacier National Park Teton National Park Banff National Park Cambodia Thailand   The Podcasts: https://activetraveladventures.com https://adventuretravelshowpodcast.com

One of the great bucket list items many of us have is going to the ends of the Earth. You’re in luck in this episode because host, Kit Parks, takes you all the way down to the South Pole to Antarctica. Interviewing a world traveler, Kit guides us to an entirely new Antarctic expedition—cruising and kayaking the South Pole together into the Falkland Islands and South Georgia. Discover some of the great things about touring on a ship that stretches far from its great amenities to delivering an unforgettable experience with wildlife as well as with the people. Follow the adventures and experiences in store such as visiting Shackleton’s grave and the whaling station, seeing the sea ice, and crossing the Drake Passage to Ushuaia. Tune in for more special experiences in this Antarctic expedition.

In Part II of Adventure Travel in Bolivia and Peru, we now cross the Peruvian border into Bolivia. Kit Parks continues her conversation with Susan Brickey and Richard Pope about their exciting adventure. Here, we learn about the Inca civilization and local people of the Andes mountains and the magical Uyuni salt flats and Isla de la Luna. We also find answers to why there is a massive train graveyard and how come tourists stay in the San Pedro prison, the cities of La Paz and Copacabana. Discover so much more about this adventure and understand why serious world travelers, Susan and Richard, put this trip in their top five!   Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share! Here’s How » Join the Active Travel Adventures Community: activetraveladventures.com Active Travel Adventures Facebook Page Active Travel Adventures Facebook Group Active Travel Adventures Twitter Active Travel Adventures Instagram Active Travel Adventures YouTube Kit Parks LinkedIn

Below is a machine transciption of this episode (and there is bound to be loads of errors).  I am currently traveling off grid and didn’t have a chance to work up the complete webpage before I left, so this is the best I could do in the meantime.  Either check back later, or if you email me, I’ll write you back to let you know when I’ve got the post up.  Thanks for your understanding!  Kit   00:05                                    I had to get across the river. I lost my footing for a moment and found myself stalled in the middle of the deepest and fastest part of the stream. As I tried to get better footing the river current sweat feet from underneath me and I immediately fell face down into the river. I was immediately hit with a wave of cold from the water that had been ice nearly hours before I was swept downstream with my pack on. I was underwater and couldn’t preach. I tried unsuccessfully to get a toe hold on the river bottoms who would get on my feet. I realized I was in a very serious situation. No one knew where I was. I had no idea what was downstream. Was there a log or a pile of logs and rocks below me that I can get caught up in? Was my gear and my sleeping bag wet? Was I even going to be able to get out of this welcome 00:57                              Welcome to the Adventure Travel Show podcast. I’m your host Kit Parks. The intro today was an excerpt I read from an article by the Pacific Crest Trail Association titled I was swept away crossing a river on the Pacific crest trail written by Charles Williams, who I did try to reach out to, but unfortunately it was not able to catch up with him prior to this recording. But I will put a link to his very fine article in the show notes and on the website for this episode. Today we’re going to be talking about the best practices to help you get across river safely. Believe it or not, that’s one of the most dangerous things that we do when we’re out in the wild. People might be afraid of heights or snakes or bites or the cold or the heat, but what gets us the most is crossing the rivers. So today we’re going to learn the best tips of how to do so safely. What we need to look out for ahead of time, what to do if something goes wrong and we slip and fall into the water and the things that we need to do to give us the best shot at getting to the other side quickly, efficiently, and safely. This is a super important episode that I hope you’ll share, so let’s get started. 02:07                                     Okay. 02:08                                     Like I said, many hikers are worried about bears, snakes, lightning, and why you should definitely need to know what to do when you encounter these. Your greatest risk of injury or worse is crossing rivers without a bridge. Did you know that the number one way that people die in the national parks in the U S is from drowning? It’s also one of the leading causes of death on the Pacific coast trail and to beat a dead horse, it is the number one way that we harm ourselves when we’re out in the wild. Before we begin, let’s talk a minute about rivers themselves. 02:41                                     Okay. 02:41                                     The river, think of the river. It’s something that striates into different horizontal currents. So try to picture a cake with different layers, several layers, and each layer instead of being cake is a moving current. The top layer or the icing is the fastest moving current. While the bottom layer where your feet are is the slowest. However, unlike the top icing, the side icing is also slower moving. And so what this means to you is that even though you might have your feet firmly planted on the riverbend, that stronger middle layer of the cake and even that top layer can still carry you away. And that’s what happened to Charles in the intro. 03:21                                     Okay? 03:22                                     And love you need to remember too, is because the sides are slower. You may not realize it until you’re out in the middle of the river, that it’s much faster and much stronger than you thought. Even with the tests that we’re going to be doing to see whether or not we think it’s safe to cross the river. 03:38                                     So the things we want to do, even before we even begin our hike is number one, let’s find out what the current water levels are. Were there any recent rains? How big is the snow melt runoff? You want to check with the parks of the Rangers, ask around with the locals. If you’re on the coastal areas, get a tide chart and when you’re deciding whether or not to cross a river, you need to consider the skill level and the comfort level of everyone in your group because the weakest member sets the tone and sometimes it’s just best to turn around or else wait until the water level subsides and conditions get better. 04:18                                     When we get to the river, what’s the next thing we want to look at? We want to consider hidden hazards. Submerge rocks and trees can be covered with moss and they’re really slippery, so you want to look, if you do slip, what is shortly downstream? Is there going to be a waterfall that you could possibly go over? I have a girlfriend that I and my hiking group, she lost one of her girlfriends that went over the fall. That’s the one that’s just after turtleback falls, which I have a great photo of me jumping up as a great fall. They have a little roped area. You’re not supposed to go past that. She was standing on the edge on the other side of that rope, slipped on a rock and over that waterfall she plunged to her death. So you want to see what’s further downstream. If things go wrong, what could happen to you? 05:02                                     Okay. 05:03                                     If you see there’s a waterfall, you may want to go further upstream or possibly even go past it, followed the river and go downstream and go across the river on the downside of the waterfall 05:14                                     [inaudible] 05:14                                     because if you fall and if you slip, you do not want to get carried over that fall. Look for big rapids and boulders. You don’t want to slip and get banged up or worse than there. What kind of river bed are you crossing? Are you looking at algae, cover rocks or sand? Obviously the algae rocks are going to add more risk, so you need to be especially cautious and you need to pay attention to where the river’s bending because if you slip and get carried downstream, look to see what’s down that corner because that’s where you’re liable to end up. Is it a pile of river debris? 05:51                                     Okay. 05:52                                     If you see a down tree or Bush in the stream, otherwise referred to as a strainer, you always want to stay downstream of that obstacle because if you should happen to fall in and hit the strainer, you’re going to find out why it’s called that it strains the water but not the people and makes you trapped and can suck you under. It’s an incredibly dangerous hazard. If you’re wearing convertible pants, you want to take off the lower legs, it’s going to give you less drag and it won’t be as cold when you do get across and if it’s really cold out, consider actually stripping down to your Andes so that you could have dry clothes to put on when you reach the other side, 06:33                                     if you have true hiking sandals, and by that I mean proper hiking sandals that are strapped securely around your foot and your ankle. You can put those on so your hiking shoes don’t get wet. Tie your hiking boots to the back of your pack or drip them around your neck. But remember they’re going to be clunking around and that can often make you a little bit off balance. Sometimes it’s safer just to walk through the water rather than boulder jump. You never want to cross a river and flip flops. The current can easily make them slip off your feet, causing you to slip and fall into the water. 07:05                                     And if you think, oh, I’ll just go barefoot, that’s not a good idea. Think again, you’re liable to cut your feet on the rocks. In the sticks, you’re better off to have what shoes and if you have to wear your hiking boots to cross the river, take out the soul so at least there’ll be dry on the other side. You can even take off your socks and keep those dry. You want to assess how deep is the river. You don’t want to forward any river with water higher than your knees. You might think to yourself, oh, I’m a great swimmer. Still it’s safer. Keep the water to your knees or below because the current can easily carry you away if you’re crossing waist deep or chest deep in the water. Remember that water levels are usually lower in the morning, especially before the sun is a chance to melt more snow if you’re in that kind of an environment. 07:53                                     Okay. 07:53                                     And also if you get up and hike earlier in the day, you’re going to be less likely to miss afternoon thunderstorms that can add more water to the rivers. 08:01                                     Yeah, 08:02                                     deeper water that’s less than the height of your knees is often safer than shallower, but faster moving water 08:09                                     [inaudible] 08:09                                     and you can often take your time more in the deeper water and counter-intuitively should you fall, you’re actually more buoyant in deeper water. Consider also the physics of moving water. Water is heavy and it weighs 62.4 pounds per cubic foot. Water pressure increases with the square of its velocity. Oh yeah, that’s really mathy. Mathy. What does that mean to us in everyday terms? That means that the shallow water is moving twice as fast as the deeper water. It’s exerting four times the force. If it’s 10 times faster than it’s a hundred times as forceful. Think about that, so that’s why the shallower, faster moving mortar can be more treacherous for rivers change and so sometimes the trail may not meet the river at the optimal place to cross. When you come to a river, you want to scout out the river up and down for the best place to cross avoid turns in the river as the water moves were quickly there. 09:12                                     See if there’s something risky shortly downstream that would indicate that you shouldn’t be crossing there at all. Say the waterfall we talked about that you could tumble over should you slip. Ideally you want to look for a vantage point above the river so you can get a bird’s eye view to make your assessment. Also, pay attention to places that you can get out of the river view. If you do happen to fall, you always want to try to have a backup plan. Be ahead of time because you’re not going to have time to think and all the chaos should you fall in. 09:39                                     Okay. 09:40                                     If there’s a bend in the river below, be sure to scout both sides of the river because if you fall, the water may carry you to the bank side that you didn’t plan on going to the water will most likely leave you on the outside of the bend. Remember, you can look to to see what is the river depositing at that bend because there’s a chance that you could end up there. You want to make sure you can get out wherever it is that you want to cross. Are there steep banks that you’re, they’re gonna be difficult to get out. You want to be very patient and choosing where to cross and even deciding whether you should indeed cross your life might very well depend on that decision and if you’re scouting the sides of the river off the trail for safer place to cross, you also need to be aware that this includes its own hazards of falling and injury. When you leave the trail, make a good mental note of the trail so you can find your way back. You don’t want to get lost and for that also refer you to episode number six of what to do if you get lost in the woods. 10:42                                     Don’t forget you’ve got a map. Look at your map. Are there any forks ahead that might have less water? Would they be a better place to cross? 10:49                                     Right? 10:49                                     You want to check to see how fast the water is moving. You can test the river current by tossing a stick and seeing how long it takes to move down the stream. The current can be really deceptive if you toss that stick in and that stick moves faster than your walking pace. The currents too strong, late spring and early summer or when current levels from snow melt are particularly strong. Remember the icing on the sides of the cake. What you see with your little test is the river at its slowest. Also, pay attention to what happens to the stick. If you’re stick, get snagged or pulled under, that’s liable to be what happens to you should you fall. You can tell the shallower water by indications, a little rippling water over boulders. Eddies are formed above larger boulders and they can slow down the water. Making for a good place to cross, however, do not cross downstream of large boulders as you can get caught in some dangerous swirling currents. Likewise, don’t cross just downstream of the waterfall as they’re all Scobey some currents that can pull you under. You want to choose an exit point on the other side of the stream. Avoid places that you’re going to have to scramble up. I remember you might be pretty tired, and because of that, you might slip and then fall back down to the river. 12:12                                     You also don’t want to try to climb up some undercut banks. 12:15                                     [inaudible] 12:16                                     so you’re gonna look for an exit point on the straight part of the river and not on the bend. And just while we’re talking about it too, as you’re crossing the river, you want to keep your eye on your exit point. So you’ve done all your scouting, you’ve done your prep work, you’ve done your little tests of the water. Now when you’re crossing the river, you’ve chosen a location, you’re going to choose a location where the river straight, not at the bend. So you’ve got a straight part of the river. Now what? Now? You want to look at the width of the river because actually the wider part of the river at the current is usually slower moving than the sh the skinnier part to the river. So you want to look for the wider section, even though that might look a little bit more intimidating, it’s often safer. 12:59                                     Yeah, 12:59                                     so you want to think straight, wide, shallow, so the straight are part of the river is going to be less movement. The wider part is less current and shallow below the knees, so straight, wide and shallow. Only cross it when it’s above your knees when there’s little to no current unless you plan on swimming across the river, which I’ll talk about that a little bit later. 13:23                                     [inaudible] 13:24                                     and the streets stretches to also offer the benefit. Usually have a consistent current 13:30                                     [inaudible] 13:31                                     be on the lookout for something. When the river breaks into channels, they call them braided channels. These channels often have debris, rock sandbars that you can rest on and on. The widest part often dissipate some of the force of the water I Breda channel could be a great place to cross. 13:47                                     Okay. 13:48                                     Also be on the lookout for sandbars where you might see some animal tracks. That’s usually a great indicator that that’s a good place to cross the animals know best, so you’ve chosen your location, you already scout out everything. Now make sure you unbuckle your pack, both the hip and the sternum straps. Because if you slip, you do not want your pack to drag you under or get caught and then help to drown you. However, now that it’s loose, it’s gonna make your pack a little bit more unstable as the weight shifts about while you’re crossing the river. You also want to loosen your shoulder straps a little bit to make it a little bit easier to remove. If you do fall, it’s better to lose your pack than your life. One option is you can tie your rope to your pack, so if you do fall in, do you have a better chance of recovering it, but you still need to be prepared to let go of the rope. If the current or snagged pack starts pulling you under, found your place, you’ve unbuckled your pack. Number three when you enter the water you want to up stream and then you shuffle your feet rather than stepping so you’re sliding your feet across the river bed rather than stepping in a slightly downstream manner at a roughly 45 degree angle shuffling rather than lifting your feet, it’s going to help prevent you from slipping on an algae covered rock or submerged tree trunk. This will also scoot away any underwater critters that you might accidentally step on and that could spook you causing you to fall. 15:22                                     Number four, you want to use a trekking pole. Poles are great not just for hiking, especially when going downhill, but they can turn your body into a more stable tripod when crossing a river. If you don’t want to carry poles, find a sturdy stick to use on crossing. My polls have saved me countless falls in and out of the water. If you use a hiking pole, then you will always have one foot firmly planted plus the pole firmly planted. As you shuffle the other foot you face up stream and plant the pole in the stream. The current’s going to lodge it into something. And if you find that that small tip keeps getting caught, a sturdy stick might be a better option for you. Remember to only move one foot at a time and don’t cross your legs so you can get tangled and tip over. 16:12                                     You’re shuffling was south, but placement sideways, facing upstream, moving about a 45 degree angle downstream, face up, move down, slight angle. Remember the tripod, keep the tripod and you want to have always two sod points of contact on the river floor before moving the third so you’ve got two feet and a stick do of those should always be firmly planted before you move the third [inaudible]. And if the current is not too strong, you might like using both poles or too sturdy sticks. But if it’s really strong, it’s probably gonna be all you can do to handle just keeping the one pole under control. And if that little trekking pole basket causes you some drag, you might want to take it off. 16:57                                     Number five. If you’re lucky enough to see the bottom of the river, you can look a few steps ahead for smoother bottoms. If the water is silty toss a rock, does it make that kerplunk sound? The water might be deeper than you think. And if your rock swims a little bit before it sinks, you might be about to enter some Kurt that’s much stronger than you think. Remember, the slower moving sides of our cake icing. As you get in the middle, you might find a much stronger current six if there’s more than one of you. Again, with your packs loosened, hug each other’s waist and form a line and cross the river together in a sideways shuffle. To do so, you want to put the strongest person in, position him or her towards the furthest upstream and secure their position with a sturdy pole when the leaders firmly established person number, hugs, leaders’ waist, and then person number three, et Cetera, et cetera. As you work on down the chain, this later is creating an eddy like the big boulder we talked about and it makes it easier for the others behind to follow. So the group working together shuffles across the stream. 18:08                                     When your group has the opportunity, you should practice this on shallower, safer stream so you get it down pat. When it comes to a little bit deeper, stronger stream. Another group crossing technique uses the people crossing, forming themselves into a tripod. The group forms a triangle facing each other with the strongest person entering the water first. They each hold their neighbors waste the weaker people away from the point of the triangle. So you want to put them in the middle of the sides and again, you’re usually going to be more stable holding each other’s waists rather than their shoulders. The strongest person takes the lead and as the front point of the tripod breaking the current, then he or she plants a pole or stick firmly in the ground and on the leader’s count, everyone takes a step together and once firmly establish the leader calls out another step and another step together, the group diminishes a lot of the current. If you’re in a group and people are crossing Solo, consider having somebody downstream ready to toss a rope if they fall in. But if the current is so swift that you actually expect people to fall in, perhaps you shouldn’t be crossing it in the first place. 19:21                                     Okay. 19:22                                     Sometimes a stronger, more experienced hiker can cross the river, secure a rope on the crossing bank, come back over and secure another road there so that the group can hold onto the rope for additional support. Strong person, of course, would then go back and collect the rope afterwards. If the rope is strong enough. You can also use the rope as kind of like a zip line to transfer your packs. 19:44                                     Okay. 19:45                                     But caution, caution, caution, do not tie people together with a rope. If somebody falls in, it could drag down others to a tragic end. If you use a rope, people are just to be holding onto it, not tied to it. 19:59                                     Right. 19:59                                     And don’t wrap your hands even around it. I actually had a girlfriend I grew up with was holding onto the waterski rope and she wrapped it around her hands and when she fell, it literally pulled off all of her fingers. So just grab onto it. Don’t wrap it around your hands. 20:16                                     Okay. 20:17                                     If you’re hiking solo and you’re a little dicey, you look twitchy about a river. Consider waiting until other hikers come along so that you can forge the river together. And that adds a higher safety level for all of you. If you’re crossing and now the water’s getting deeper than your knees, think about returning to the bank and trying either a better spot or waiting for the water levels to lower. 20:41                                     Yeah. 20:41                                     Some strong swimmers may consider swimming across a river while not recommended. If you choose to do so, you must choose a deep spot with minimal current, the little current that’s there, it’s still gonna feel pretty strong on the Appalachian trail. Folks used to have two Ford across the Kennebec River, but there was a tragedy there once when a woman did unfortunately drown. So now there’s a ferry system that runs, I believe it’s twice a day as I think a guy in a canoe comes in, carries you across the river and safety. But before that, for the most part, people had to swim across. The only time I ever had to swim in a river like that was when my sister Tara and I were in Costa Rica rafting, the Macquarie River. There was this big rock that we jumped off of and so our instructions were jump off the rock and then swim as fast as we could over to the left bank. 21:32                                     And I was shocked at how fast that river was moving here. We’d been rafting it all morning and you don’t realize the power of that river. And in fact it was funny. Fortunately Terry’s is fast swimmer because she forgot when she got out to swim to left bank and they fortunately threw a rope and all that cause apparently some rapids were coming up ahead, but everything was fine. But again, the main thing I want to emphasize is it didn’t look like it was moving that fast. But once I was in I was like, whoa. It was carrying us really fast. And when I got to that bank I was exhausted. Remember I had a life jacket on to help me. You can learn about that whole adventure is episode number 15 of the actor travel adventures podcast. And I’ll put links in the show notes and on the webpage and the webpage for this’ll be adventure travel show, podcast.com/river so if you decide you’re going to swim across the river, you must also be a very strong swimmer and have thoroughly scouted out the hazards ahead. 22:25                                     You’re going to need to remove your pack, consider inflating your mattress pad and using that as a raft for your backpack, your important stuff you already should have in dry sacks. And then I also line my whole interior of my pack with a heavy duty compactor trash bag that I’d twist up. And then I fold it over onto itself and then twist, tie that together. That keeps everything nice and dry, although probably not if it gets submerged. So if you’ve got your important gear, like your sleeping bag and all that, and dry bags and a compact bag, you gotta be in pretty good shape, particularly if you use your mattress pad raft. So if you’re swimming, you want to choose where you want to land on the other side and do a little bit of mental math to figure out the current and the distance. 23:06                                     So you cross aiming upstream. This is called ferring across a river. So let’s say your math calculations are really off. What’s the downside for you if you land away further downstream? Remember, look for the hazards. So regardless of whether you’re swimming or forging a river, you’ve gotta be mindful of Hyperthermia. If the water’s cold, you could be putting yourself at risk. You want to know the signs and treatments, which I’ll leave that for a separate episode. Oh, I’ve learned how to shuffle across a river and swim across a river. But one of my all time favorite ways to get across a stream. Very rarely a river, usually just a stream is taken advantage of the natural features that are available to me. This includes things like boulders and fallen trees when I think it’s safe to do so. I try to keep my feet dry. 23:55                                     Using the natural features is great. And like I said, I use it an awful lot, but the most important thing is is to think before you go, what is the downside? If you shimmy across that tree or walk across that tree or jump boulder to boulder to cross that stream, if you fall in just a quick second slip of the footwork, what could happen? Are there rocks you could hit your head on? Are there sticks that could impale you? How high above the water are you when you fall? Is there one of those nasty strainers downstream that you could get caught in? And let’s talk for a minute about tree bridges. Sometimes you’ll see a nice fallen tree going across that stream. You’re like sweet. If it’s got tree bark, that’s going to give you better traction than a Barclays tree, which could be slippery if you decide to walk across a tree. It’s recommended that you walk sideways and keep your eyes moving and not focused on a fixed point and that’ll help you prevent vertigo. And actually if I come to a tree bridge, I prefer to just scoot in my butt and just shimmy across. 24:58                                     If you see a log jam where a bunch of trees are all crammed together and think that that would be a great way to cross. Think again. All right. When multiple trees are locked together from flooding, let’s say flooding knocked down a whole bunch of dead trees or whatever, it looks stable but you don’t know for sure and if you jump on it and you put your weight in a tree that turns out it can move, you can slip between them and get stuck. Plus let’s say that the trees are appended so you see these large root balls, they could be another problem as you grab onto one to get a little bit of balancing all that, that can dislodge a whole bunch of dirt and rocks above you that can fall on top of you. So just avoid those just to be in the safe side. 25:36                                     They could be really treacherous. Boulder hopping, this is usually the way that I cross most streams. I go in and this is when you see the rocks on top of the stream and you just kind of tap dance the crown across the river. So this is what I probably use the most. But keep in mind, I have really good balance and I have really good decision making when it comes to foot placement. When I’m hiking, I just intuitively seem to know where to put my feet. Some people don’t. So when you’re going to boulder hop, pay attention, what’s the downside? If you misstep or lose your balance? Is it safer to boulder hop or just to slog through the river? Often slogging through is the safer option. And if they’re dissimilar heights, you’re in a try to jump up to a boulder rather than down because the momentum actually might be a little bit harder to control. 26:27                                     Think about it. Gravity might give you a little bit more quote unquote help than you need. So jumping up, you actually have a little bit more stability. And also when I’m doing the boulder hopping, I’m doing so on dry boulders that don’t have any allergy. I’d try to avoid stepping on submerged boulders because even if they look algae free, they’re usually still a little bit slippery since they’d been under water. And you’re already getting your feet wet. So you might as well just shuffle across the riverbed anyway. You think you’ve done everything right, everything’s gone great, and you step on this one boulder, but it moves and you fall. So what do you do in this or in any of the other things we’ve talked about today? What do you do if you fall in the river? Number one, you gotta be prepared to unload your pack. Yes, I know that hurts painfully. You’ve already unbuckled and loosened it, right? You do not want your pack to drag you under. 27:18                                     I’m sure you listened to episode number four about how to pack your backpack. And I know we’ve already covered how to keep everything all nice and waterproof. So I know you’ve done that, but let’s say you have to drop your pack. You can often find it at the next bend in the river. If not, you could be screwed. So what does that mean for you? Where are you if you lost your pack? Is that a life threatening situation? Consider that before you cross a river that you’re not sure about, but remember, always better your pack than your life. 27:52                                     Okay? 27:55                                     All right. Let’s say the worst happens, number two, there’s rapids and you’re swept downstream. So what do you do? You position yourself that your feet are taking the brunt of the initial impacts. Your feet are facing downstream. So you’ve got to protect your head. So you want to float on your back with your feet pointing downstream and then try to aim and use your arms and all that to aim for the shore or calm shallow area for you to catch your breath and to regroup and hopefully you’ll be able to recover your pack. And here’s something else I want you to think about. Let’s say you’re doing a hike and you’re doing an out and back, meaning you have to cross the same river back on your return mate, no to where you crossed and how long it took you to do so. So you allow plenty of time for your return hike. Don’t forget that the river levels and the currents, the speed can change base on the snow mount and rainfall. So what may have been a nice calm river you crossed today, a few days from now after a heavy rainfall or a lot of snow melt could be dangerously impassable upon your return. What’s your plan B in case you can’t save the crossing for a while? What if you have to stay there for a few days? Do you know where the nearest bridges and how far it is to get there? 29:08                                     The most important thing you need to pack whenever you head outdoors is your brain. So bubble carry your head with you and don’t hesitate to call it a hike and turn back or delay. The crossing perhaps will be calmer in the morning. My rule of thumb is if I’m not sure I should cross, that’s a pretty darn good indicator that I shouldn’t cross. It should be crystal clear to you that say for you to cross, if not either weighted out or turned back. I put together a checklist of what we talked about today that will be available in the monthly newsletter that goes out to anybody that subscribes and you can always find how to do that at adventure travel show, podcast.com or you can always email me@kittatactivetroubledventures.com some parting thoughts. I love the outdoors as much as you do, but we want to do it safely. 30:07                                     Have you ever fallen crossing a river? I’ve been lucky actually. I’d never have a fallen lots of times on the trail, but never in a river. So if you have, I’d like to hear what happened to you and, and do you think that what we’ve covered today was helpful or would have been helpful for you? Like I said, this is the most dangerous thing that we face when we’re out hiking in the wild. So if you have hiking buddies, please make sure that they get a copy of this podcast so that they know what to do. Even if they say, oh, I know everything wanted to do. There’s probably one or two tips here that they didn’t know that might be helpful for them in the future. Next up on the show is the big debate, hiking boots versus hiking shoes. What’s the difference? When do you wear what and how to pick the right shoe for you? And next up on the act of troubled ventures podcast, I have a very special episode covering a little visited range in the Rockies called the mummy range. And after looking at the photos and talking to our guests, I definitely put that on my list, so I’m looking forward to sharing that with you. 31:15                                     I appreciate you listening. Until next time, this is kit parks and venture on.  

Ten Features of a Perfect Campsite BEFORE you even head out, check with rangers or the website to determine the guidelines and regulations for the area you will be camping.  It's no fun to get a ticket from a ranger or be forced to move because you aren't following the rules.  Also check on camp fire restrictions as well. Here are the ten features to look for when choosing a campsite.  Full details below the checklist. Water availability and source : it's no fun to lug water The terrain : find a level spot so you don't feel like you are rolling down a hill A hazard free zone : look around for potential hazards like dead trees/branches or from flash floods, etc. A site suitable for the expected weather : don't pitch your tent in a low spot in case of rain, or on the ridge in a thunderstorm The proper size for your party :  make sure you have enough room for all the tents, kitchen/dining area and play area Bonus amenities like stone or stump chairs and tables :  are there any 'free' boulder or tree stump chairs to relax on? A perfect mix of sun and shade : open tent to morning sun, afternoon shade and a sunny clotheseline area Which minimizes negative impact on the land and the wildlife : use existing sites or try not to disturb the vegetation Is private : away from other campers and the trail Is pest free : use the wind to your advantage   Links Mentioned in this Podcast: Portable Water Treatment ATSP Episode 003 What to Do if You Get Lost in the Woods ATSP Episode 006 Outdoor Etiquette ATSP Episode 010 Active Travel Adventures podcast   Allow Enough Time to Find a Campsite:  I start looking for a campsite about 4pm.  If you are super tired and the terrain and water situation is not optimal, you may want to start looking earlier.  Also if you are tired, you may want to hide you pack (and make note of where you put it)so you can scout ahead without carrying the weight.  This way you’ll be more likely to seek out a good site instead of settling for the first adequate one.   So what does a good campsite look like?    Check before you head out:   What are the regulationsfor the area you plan to camp?  The national parks, national forests, BLM lands and state parks all have different rules and restrictions.  Obviously honor the rules as they are trying to keep things nice for all of us. If you need a reservation, make one.  If you need a permit, get one.  You certainly don’t want to get a ticket from a ranger or be forced to move because your didn’t pay attention to the guideline.  While you’re at it, find out the campfire rules, too. 1. Water  A great campsite has a solid source of quality water nearby so you don’t have to haul it too far.  You can learn about water treatment option on Episode 003. You’re going to need water to drink, cook, and clean up.  My favorite water is a spring, then a stream. My least favorite is a lake. Lakes can collect bad things like E-coli and it's hard for the bad things to get out.  Rivers also collect all the run off, and it was from the river at Linville Gorge that I got giardia, a most unpleasant experience. With a suitable portable water treatment system, you can drink from any of these source.  There are few places I go that I don’t treat my water before drinking it.  Remember that you want to camp at least 200’ from a water source, well off the trail and not in the path of the local wildlife’s worn path to the water’s edge.      2. Consider the terrain  Unless you are using a hammock, you want to find a level site so you don’t feel like you are rolling down the hill when you lay down.  Even a slight pitch is unnerving. Also make sure you don’t set you tent on an area where water can collect should it rain.   3. Look up and around for hazards  Dead branches and trees can fall on you.  If you see piles of rock and debris, you might be in a flash flood hazard area. Site selection is criticalif you are in a canyon and bad weather comes in quickly.  You may not have time to escape a flash flood. This is a good thing to check with rangers beforehand.  If you are camping on a beach, make sure you are well above the high tide mark, which you can see by the debris the waves leave behind.  In winter, don’t camp in avalanche prone areas, or any time of year in rock slide areas. Don’t camp by the lone tree that welcomes a lightening strike.  4. Consider the weather  If the forecast and your visuals indicate a pleasant evening, camp higher up in the mountains.  You’ll have a better view, will see the sun earlier, will have more wind which means less bugs, and if it’s chilly out, the cold air collects in the valleys, so you’ll often be warmer.  If there is a chance of thunderstorms, head down from the ridge and avoid the lone tree.  5. Campsite Size Needed  If you are camping with others, is the site large enough not only for your group, but also for a gathering area, a kitchen AND an activity area?   What do you want to do while you are out there? If you want to throw a frisbee, you’ll need to find a place with some room.  6. Look for Natural Amenities  Can you use any natural features such as boulders or fallen trees as camp furniture?  I don’t pack a camp chair, so I often like something to sit on or lean against. I carry a small piece of ripstop fabricto not only keep my butt dry, but it also acts as a barrier to chiggers and other unpleasant bugs you might sit on. 7. Best Tent Positioning  When possible, face your camp door towards the morning sun.  You can use your compass to get a reading. This will help you wake earlier and it is so much more pleasant.  I prefer a shady spot that gets the morning sun, but has a sunny area nearly. And If you find a sunny place nearby, you can tie a rope to make a clothesline (I carry strong but lightweight parachute cord).  Tie your rope across two trees to make a clothesline to help dry out some of your gear.  With a little luck and a breeze, you can dry out anything that may have gotten wet from an afternoon shower or if you need to wash your 'delicates'.  8. Leave No Trace and Minimizing Negative Impact  If you see a camp area that has been previously used, use it rather than hurting other vegetation.  Obviously you don’t want to puncture your tent floor with rocks and sticks, so gently clear your little patch of heaven and then try to put it back the way you found it in the morning.  In the winter, camp on top of the snow.  Whenever possible, pitch your tent on the bare ground to minimize harm to vegetation. If you see animal footprints, remember to give them the 'rite of way' so you don't disturb their behavior. Animals stick to habits just as we do.  And if they have a favorite path to the water’s edge, you want to make sure you’re not camping on it.  Reminder:  200' from water. 9. Privacy  If there are other campers nearby, respect each other’s privacy.  If possible you want to camp where you can’t see or hear each other, and preferably where people on the trail can’t see you either.  Don’t assume other campers want company. Many people head to the woods for solitude, so please respect that and don’t take it personally.  Check out the Wilderness Etiqueete Episode 10.  10. Wind and Pest Control  Take advantage of the wind as an organic pest control. A breeze will help keep away mosquitos and other pests.  As will avoiding setting up your tent in damp areas or still water. However, if it’s really windy, you’ll want to look for a natural windbreak like large stable boulders or a block of trees.   If you are lucky enough to check the box on all ten of these suggestions, you have found the perfect campsite!   https://activetraveladventures.com http://adventuretravelshowpodcast.com   Instagram  parks.kit   Twitter @Kit_Parks   Facebook Group:  Active Travel Adventures    

Is Solo Travel for YOU???  Afraid to travel solo – especially solo adventure travel? Today's guests share their insights as to the Pro's and Con's of solo travel and share what they consider the benefits and challenges, plus their tips to make adventure travel solo safe and fun.   Is Solo Travel for YOU???  Afraid to travel solo – especially solo adventure travel? Today's guests share their insights as to the Pro's and Con's of solo travel and share what they consider the benefits and challenges, plus their tips to make adventure travel solo safe and fun.   Today's Guest Interviews on Solo Adventure Travel  This episode is a rebroadcast of an episode on our companion Active Travel Adventures podcast.  Jackie Nourse of Traveling Jackie and the Budget Minded Traveler, Jason Waitkinsand Monica Arangurenshare their thoughts on taking a solo holiday and what it's like to travel by yourself.  See some of their solo adventures photos down below! Seven Reasons to Solo Travel There are lots of reasons you might travel solo: 1. Maybe you can't find anyoneto travel where you want to go, when you want to go.  If you want to go, but aren't comfortable going completely on your own, consider small group travel.  Be aware of any single supplements and look for companies that pair you with someone if you don't want to pay extra to travel alone. My affiliate, Active Adventures(different company with a similar name) does NOT make you pay the dreaded Single Supplement. 2. You need some time to yourself to just THINK! If you need to figure some things out in your life, consider taking a long distance hike or cycling trip.  You'll have all day to yourself, but will meet people along the way for when you could use a little company.  Check out my West Highland Wayand Cotswold Waylong distance walking holiday adventures for some inspiration. 3.  You want to develop your ‘Grit Bone'or what Jackie calls her “Courage Muscles”. There's nothing like adventure travel, and in particular, solo travel to test your mettleand to expand what you think possible for yourself!  It's a great way to boost your self esteem and self reliance, too!  If you want to feel empowered, try adventure travel, and in particular SOLO Adventure Travel! 4.  It's easier to meet new people when you travel solo.  Locals are more likely to come up to introduce themselves when they see you alone, so you'll have more local interaction. 5.  You'll develop better problem solving skills.  When it's just you, YOUhave to figure out what to do when something goes awry.  You'll learn that you are quite good at finding a solution, no matter how clumsy it is, when you know that you simply HAVE to! 6.  You'll discover what you really like and dislike:  when your schedule is completely your own, you have to make ALL the decisions, from what time to wake up, to what, when and where to eat, to how to spend your time, etc.  If you go someplace and decide you've had enough, you can simply leave without conferring with travel mates, or you can spend all day in a museum that rocks your boat, but would bore your normal partner. 7.  Traveling solo can sometimes be lonely, so even introverts learn how to strike up a conversation(my go to questions is, “So how was your day?”  People love to talk about themselves.  You'll always find other solo travelers at the bar next to a hostel, so head there at cocktail hour to find others that would love to chat.  For that matter, consider even staying in a hostel so you can meet folks in the common areas.  Many offer single rooms so you don't have to sleep dorm style.   Alternately, stay at an Airbnb where the people live there as well and the comments from previous guest indicate that the hosts like to be social with guests.  Consider Couchsurfing.  Also sign up to do a Walking Tour or other group activity to meet others.  See if there are any interesting Meetups going on while you're in town and reach out to the group organizer to attend. Solo Travel Tips and Rules I've been traveling solo for five years now and I've come up with some rules that help keep me safe and reduce stress (in no particular order): 1. When ‘winging it' while traveling, I make sure that I know where I am going to sleep before noon. 2. Whenever possible, I make sure that I arrive at the night's accommodations before dark. 3. When out, I never leave my food or drink unattended. 4. Don't drink too much or do any drugs.  Get back to your room at a reasonable hour. 5. Be careful of overly cautious locals who might be setting you up… does someone on the bus or train rush to try to share a cab with you?  This could be a setup: the cabbie could be a partner in crime.  Check the US State Dept Travel advisoryfor the country you are visiting to see what the current local scams are.  Register your trip with the Smart Traveler Program. 6. Ask your hotel to call you a cab or take highly ratedUber or Lyfts to avoid rogue cabbies.  7.  Ask a local to circle bad areas on a paper map. 8.  Be mindful of your surroundings at all times and have an exit plan.  9.  Hold onto your luggage, going so far as to bike lock it to yourself should you be on a long train or bus where you might sleep. 10.  Make sure someone knows where you are supposed to be and what time you are supposed to arrive AND when to sound an alarm should he or she not hear from you. Some of the adventures Jason has taken that have been covered by ATA include: Patagonia(Argentina & Chile) Ecuador Kilimanjaro Nepal Peru  [Machu Picchu] New Zealand South Island  Part I New Zealand South Island  Part II New Zealand North Island Part III Some of Monica's epic trips that ATA has covered: Dolomites Mont Blanc Galapagos New Zealand South Island  Part I New Zealand South Island  Part II New Zealand North Island Part III One of our guests today, Jackie, is also a travel blogger and podcaster. She did an excellent episode on Solo Travel you can access here.  You can also find her at Traveling Jackie, the Budget Minded Traveler(nowJump). Also be sure to check out my interview with Jackie on the Active Travel Adventures podcast on her adventures in Quebec! Other Links Mentioned in Today's Show: Travel Safety Tips Cotswold Way Mont Blanc Dolomites Galapagos Kilimanjaro Part I Kilimanjaro Part II Annapurna Travel Insurance When you buy travel insurance, please use this link to my affiliate World Nomads.  At no additional cost to you, you'll be helping to support this podcast and website - thanks! Training for your Adventures If you need some coaching and advice on how to prepare for your upcoming adventure, please consider using this link to Fit For Trips.  At no additional cost to you - in fact, use Promo Code ATAKIT10to get a 10% Discount, you'll be helping to keep the lights on - thanks!   Active Travel Adventures Podcast Be sure to check out our companion podcast,  Active Travel Adventures.  On ATA, I encourage you to lead a bigger life through adventure travel.  Each episode features an exciting adventure travel destination like the kinds Monica and Jason talked about today! Solo Adventure Travel We're going solo. That's right. Even if you have a partner, I want you to read this blog post because there are definite advantages and challenges to traveling solo. Even if you think, “There is no way I would ever travel solo,” please read on with an open mind. You might change your mind. I'll be interviewing three solo travelers about the challenges and joys of traveling solo. Since I usually travel solo myself, you'll hear my two cents worth as well. It's a great show. Even if you think, “No way, I could never travel solo.” I beg you please read on and see if you don't change your mind. If you're like me, you don't want to live an ordinary life. You want to live a kick-ass life, and one way to do so is to add adventure travel to your life. I find adventure travel brings out the best in me. It challenges me, it encourages me, it enlightens me, and it inspires me to lead a bigger life. On this program, you'll learn about amazing adventures from around the world plus get the tools and information you need so you could do these adventures with confidence. You'll come home feeling empowered and with amazing memories and stories that you can relive forever. Don't worry, the bar is such that my relatively fit 58-year-old body, particularly with some training, can do these adventures and you can too. This episode is a roundup episode. I've got three guests that I will be interviewing separately about their experiences with solo travel. Our first guest is Jackie Norris, who we met on one of our episodes. She is the host of Traveling Jackieand The Budget-Minded Travelerand has been traveling solo for a long time. She has a ton of insights to share with us. When I interviewed her in Quebec, I asked her casually about solo. We got engrossed in it that I decided to take that section of our interview and added to this solo episode. Our other guests are Monica and Jason. I'll let them introduce themselves. Let's start with my interview with Jackie. Jackie, why do you travel solo? The reason I do solo travel is that I'm solo. I don't let that stop me. For years and years, a lot of people struggle with the idea of getting out on their own. It's a necessity for me. It's what I have to do and so I do it. I never thought I would enjoy it, but I do love it now. You have to get to a point where you're comfortable with it. I've already been traveling for a number of years by the time that I went nomadic like fully solo nomadic a few years ago. Even after that much time of being comfortable traveling, it was weird to be on my own all the time. For the cons, you are by yourself. All of those travel decisions are made only by you. Even where you're going to eat for breakfast in the morning or if you're going to get a beer this afternoon, everything is solely up to you. There's no one that you can confer with. That also happens to be one of the advantages of it. Sometimes it depends on which perspective you have looking on it. Maybe it depends on the day. Sometimes it's amazing and sometimes you wish there was someone there. Loneliness is a real thing. I have written about that before and most solo travelers will face real loneliness. It's not just the point of being solo in a place, it's feeling alone. There's a big difference and that can get to you if it's a while. I traveled for months at a time and it can get draining on me to be alone. At the same time, this is where I am in my life and this is what I'm signing up for. This is also my work and this is what I'm choosing to do. It's part of the territory if you look at it that way. The freedom that solo travel provides is unmatched in this world. There is a feeling that comes with being on your own in some far-flung corner of the planet completely left to yourself and your own thoughts. What you want to do for the day, everything is your will. It is the most freeing feeling ever. It's incredible. You can do whatever you want. There are definitely pros and cons of solo travel. I always encourage people to at least try it out because you get to know yourself very quickly. Even if you think you know yourself, you don't, not until you solo travel. You could see what you're capable of and what your weaknesses are. It's an incredible tool for life to solo travel. Everyone should do it at least once. You had a quote in your the Budget-Minded Traveler episode number 63 that I loved. It was, “Lose yourself until you find yourself.” Could you talk a little bit about that? I thought that was excellent. It gave me chills when you read it. That came from a piece that I wrote on my Travelling Jackie blog. It was when I decided to leave everything behind and go out on my own to travel the world solo for real for the first time. This was many years after having traveled a whole bunch already and studying abroad and all that. This was different because I had a relationship, I had a house and I had all these things. I felt very lost at times, but it's because I had to recreate what my life looked like. That was my moment to decide what my new normal was going to be going forward. I did lose part of myself there in that in a good way though. It's like you have to go see what the world has for you and then figure out what you look like in that new normal. Figure out what the path forward is in this new reality that you've created. That's at least how it applied to me. It depends on what your situation is and why you're choosing to solo travel. Where you are and you’re like so much about experience outwardly when you travel, has to do what's going on inside. That was my experience at the time. I totally went out and lost myself until I started to rebuild and find what that meant to start over. It's obvious that travel in general and solo travel in particular, changed your life. I'm grateful for that because I feel so much surer of who I am. I'm so much stronger now. I have so much more confidence. These are the things that come with being on your own for so long in a place. It's not saying being on your own at home where you're comfortable with everything and you know the name of the store owner down the street, whatever. It's not like that at all. Everything is different. Everything is new. Foreign languages, foreign currency, borders, flights, hotels, everything is a challenge. When you add that element to being completely on your own for a long time, maybe for the first time, it changes everything. Your personal growth is expedited more than anything.       In the last few years since I lost my husband, I've been traveling solo. The one question I get over and over again is about safety and the Boogie Man at night. How do I deal with the safety issues? How do you respond to questions like that you get? Are you not afraid about those things at home? Bad things can happen anywhere. It doesn't matter where you are. In fact, US these days could be a lot less safe than a lot of other places that I travel. I don't dwell on that stuff at all. I have some tricks up in my sleeve to make sure that I'm safe and my belongings are safe. I pay attention. I always say that common sense is your best defense. I stand by that 110%. Don't leave your common sense behind when you walk out your door. The world outside of your comfort zone is not a place to invite fear. It's a place to invite curiosity. Go explore that and find out what it looks like because it's not about fear and safety, it's about adventure, life, growth, people, connection, culture, food, language, activity and beauty. That outweighs the fear. It's not a thing. I've been traveling for many years, knock on wood, but nothing's ever happened to me. I've never been in a situation I couldn't handle. Maybe that's because I carry my common sense close by. Maybe I've gotten lucky. Maybe a lot of things, but I do speak a lot about safety because I know that people ask about it and are concerned. You can't let that stop you from doing anything. Otherwise, you'd be stuck in your own house. What happens if there’s an earthquake and your house fell down? You can't be safe anywhere in this world if you look at it that way. Go do it, get out there and go experience it. You'll find the confidence over the fear the more you go. I want to go back to something you said about being more aware and things can happen to you even at home. It could be safer while you travel because you're more on red alert and you're more aware of your surroundings, whereas at home you’re lackadaisical. You know how they say that most accidents happen within our house like car accidents. You've got your guard down. You may be doing other things. Whereas when you're traveling solo, you're paying attention. It's an interesting metaphor. It's the same thing with hiking on a trail. If I’m on a trail I don't know, I'm acutely aware of everything that's going on around me and my surroundings. If I'm on a trail that I know very well at home, I'm not paying any attention whatsoever. I'm glad you made that point. It’s such a good point. Another question I get asked all the time is, “How do you eat dinner alone?”   It's great. I'm used to that by now. It's funny. A lot of the women I know are uncomfortable eating dinner in a restaurant by themselves. That is something you have to put your big girl pants on and go do it. What are you going to do? Not eat? Hide in a corner with your takeout? Go do it. Here's the thing. No one cares. I’ve finally figured out after all these years that if someone is staring at me, which does happen, I know why. It's because they're curious. They're curious about something. Whether it's why I'm wearing a backpack in this town or why am I sitting by myself or, “She's speaking French with an accent. I wonder where she's from?” People are curious. They're not out there like, “Look at that girl. She's by herself.” It's not like that at all. It's not like you're wearing a big L on your forehead. Think about it with you. If you see someone solo walking down the street of your town with a big backpack on, aren't you curious? “I wonder where they're going. What are they doing? Are they traveling?” It's all curiosity and it's not negative. If you're worried about what people are thinking, that's the first part. It is not negative. If you can figure out how to make that place comfortable for yourself, like for example, one of the things I love to do as I travel and as I'm at home is I love craft beer. I love trying different beers all around the world. You could do this with wines or cheeses or whatever, anything that has to do with a restaurant. What's your thing? When I get to a new place, a bar or whatever, I love to sit down and get a new beer. Beer is like home to me. I can do that anywhere in the world. I have the thing that I can go to that's my company. I work at breweries often. I will go to a brewery and get a beer. I call it a focus beer, #FocusBeer. I work that way. It's part of finding comfort anywhere I can be in the world. Those things matter. I will make sure if I'm going out by myself, I will get a drink. Something that makes me feel a little like maybe takes the edge off, I will get a beer and I will enjoy myself. I will people watch, whatever. You can choose to get out your phone and have a conversation with someone across the world if you want to or you can choose to put your phone down. You can bring a book. It doesn't matter. It's about you, it's not about what other people think. It's funny because sometimes I'll pass by a restaurant that's super full. I'm like, “I don't know if I want to go into that one all by myself.” If I pass by a place that I can see that there is a table where I might feel comfortable, that's where I'll go in because I'm still introverted. You’ve got to take care of yourself. That's what it's about, it’s taking care of yourself, making it comfortable for you, and adventure. I find too, if I'm traveling solo, I'll have more opportunity to meet locals because they feel more comfortable coming up to you when you're traveling solo than if you're with other people. If you're putting out an energy that says, “I'm approachable,” then people will approach you for sure. For people who don't want to be alone. Maybe you're only traveling solo because no one else wanted to go with you and you'd rather have a buddy. I highly recommend staying in hostels. It does not matter how old you are. You can find hostels with a private room, which is what I like to do. The beauty of that is you have an immediate community if you choose to have it. You can meet people in the communal areas. That's something that hotels do not offer. Finding either like CouchSurfing, staying at a hostel or staying at an Airbnb where there's a host on site and you can expose yourself to other people. If that's where you are in your travels, your life, and you want to be around other people, then put yourself in those positions. It's easy to retract and do things on your own if you want to be solo. That's easy. In fact, you'll probably still get approached because people are curious. There are other people who are solo who are going to sit down at the bar next to you and start talking about beer with you, and realized you're not Italian and be curious about where that accent comes from. I love that about hostels. I learned that for the first time about a few years ago because it is lonely. If you go to the hostel community rooms, you meet the people. If you're not staying in the hostel, my week time of being alone is cocktail hour. That's when I want to talk to somebody. I don't care the rest of the whole day, dinner, no problem, but at cocktail hour, I want to talk. Go find the bar next to the hostel because that's where they'll be and they're traveling solo too so they're looking for somebody to talk to as well. What advice would you give someone who's considering traveling solo for the first time?    Go and don't be afraid. I don't think you're going to regret choosing to travel solo. You're going to learn something that's time well spent. Getting out, seeing the world, any of these things, these are adventures. This is our one life. We get one shot so go do it. You'll find that you're much more resourceful than you realize. You're going to be the one with a story to tell afterward. I encourage you to try it, test yourself, get out there and make it happen. --- Next up, let's hear what Monica has got to say about solo travel. After her interview, we'll get a guy's perspective. Can you start by introducing yourself and perhaps telling us your age? I'm Monica Aranguren and I am 58 years old. How did you get into adventure travel? Quite honestly, I found myself single again. That was back in 2007, 2008. I started to do a lot of hiking on my own at that time. When I got to my 50th birthday, I decided I wanted to do something bigger and that's when I started to look into adventure travel and planned to go to New Zealand at that time. Was that your first trip to do the New Zealand hike? I take it that you were going solo because you were single again? Yes. I didn't want to leave adventure behind. That's great that you're adventuresome. How did you make the mind shift to say, “I'm going to go on my own?” because it's a scary concept for a lot of people to go on a trip all by themselves. The comments I've also gotten from friends when I've let them know what I'm doing. I've been an independent gal all my life and it's like let's push on through. I was like, “I'm not waiting for life to happen to me. I've got to do it. I'm going to go on these trips because I want to see these places.” That was my motivation. Did you do that on your own solo or did you go with a tour company or how did that work out?   The New Zealand trip I went with a group. I went with Active Adventuresthere and had been making different trips of that nature since. Our regular audience will recognize Active Adventures as one of my favorite companies and affiliates. I'm super excited that I will be going on the same trip that Monica went on. Monica, how do you decide where you're going to go? Sometimes I see a photograph and I’m like, “I want to go there.” I might get a vision in my mind of a place I had been thinking about and then I start to investigate the location and how I might be able to get a taste of it. Are you still traveling now? That's been many years since you were single. Are you still doing solo travel as your primary way? Is that all you do or do you mix it up with others? How does that work? I've made some group-led trips. I've also done some that are self-guided where I'm still with a company that's moving my belongings, setting up the itinerary and the maps and all of that, but I'm doing it on my own. I would imagine when you're in the group setting on the guided trips, that also gives you some more socialization. Can you talk a little bit about that? Each experience is a little different. Meeting people from different places and learning about them, joking with them, creating songs with them, eating with them, all kinds of things. It's a lot of social interaction with the group. When I'm on a self-guided hike, it's a little quieter, but I also tend to favor that sometimes because I like to be in the quiet of nature. Sometimes I like to interact with the culture on a different level. I enjoy that piece as well. What are the pros and cons in your mind of solo travel? The pros are that solo travel lets you expand a little bit more in "getting out of the box." It lets you meet new people that you might not otherwise meet when you're traveling with a companion that you've known for a while like a friend, family member, whoever that might be. Cons, I don't think there are any. I will say I choose a single room so that I don't get any snoring so I can sleep on my own. For me, that's important. That would be the only con for me if I can't sleep. That's why I tend to choose a single room. Other than something like that, I can't think of any, quite honestly. Since I lost my husband and now that I'm traveling solo, the thing I'm always getting is, “Aren't you afraid about the big bad wolf, getting raped, mugged or whatnot?” Can you talk a little bit about the safety issues?       I have never felt not at ease. I've always felt safe on these trips. With a group, you're surrounded by your group all the time because you're doing all the activities with that group. The only time you're separate is maybe if you have a specific day that you have in a particular town on your own. You might visit that, but never any concerns of safety in that sense. When I've been on self-guided tours, in the case of the company that I worked with, I had a GPS, I had instructions and I had a phone. I had a contact I could call 24 hours a day if there was an issue. I always had someone who would check on with me. I felt like I was supported in both styles of travel. How about loneliness? Is that ever an issue? I would say during the self-guided hikes because I might see something and not have anyone to talk about it. Other than that, not really. When I'm with a group hike, I'm with other people. I've always got companionship with me. Another thing I always get is how do you eat by yourself? I've been asked that as well. I carry a book with me and go with it that way. I've gotten used to it. I'm not very self-conscious about it and enjoy interacting with the waiters, waitresses and the hosts wherever I'm eating, and enjoy myself that way. There's also more attention and curiosity when you're traveling solo and that you get a lot more local interaction, which I enjoy very much and think of as a plus. That is true, especially if you're at little small restaurants. The host or the owner might chat with you more, which is great. I was on a trip where an older gentleman, I was walking around and I had my camera going, came up to talk to me in Italian. I was in Italy and he was talking to me about how he had owned a camera like that. We had a nice little chat and then I was back on my way. That was fun to be able to chat with him for a while. If somebody is sitting on their couch saying to themselves, “I’m like Monica, if I don't get off this couch, I'm never going to see the places that I want to see.” What advice would you give them so they get the courage and the confidence to go try this on their own? Don't wait. If you're attracted to making this trip, do it. It will open up a whole other level of possibilities, experience and independence. Do it and enjoy yourself and don't wait for another opportunity. Have you found that solo travel is important too, that it's somehow changing who you are?   I'd love the companionship, but it supports my being independent and doing my life. Living my life the way I want it and taking advantage of the opportunities, especially outdoor hiking opportunities, while I can do it. That's how it positively helps me out. It empowers me. When I get back from one of these trips, I'm like, “I did that.” If I can do that, then I can do this, whatever my current real-world problem is. It's self-empowering. If maybe a particular trip is going to be a little more challenging, I've got to rise to the occasion to work out and get read. It feels great when I'm out there and accomplishing it. It's an empowering experience and one that supports a good sense of independence and moving forward the way you want. Have you kept up with any of the people that you've met on your trips? I have. I made a trip in the Mont Blanc area of France, Italy and Switzerland a few years ago, back in 2016. There were four singles on that trip actually. The four of us have had a couple of reunions. Our last one was in Toronto. We always go out a little hike and then eat out and see wherever we're visiting together. It's a lovely experience and this time, we were also able to hook up with a couple that was from the Toronto area that had been on this same track and got to have a lovely dinner with them. It was a great time together. I found that usually in each trip, there are one or two people I'll meet that we ended up becoming friends. Even if it's just Facebook friends, we keep up that way. In fact, when I go to the UK, I will be staying with a gentleman and his girlfriend that I met in theWest Highland Way for a couple of days before I start the long distance trek on the Cotswold Way. I'm excited about that. Can you tell us some of your favorite stories about some of your trips? I know you went to New Zealand. When you look back on New Zealand, what's the one story you tell? It was deciding to do the bungee jump. There were only two of us in a group of ten that had the courage to do that. I'm glad that I did that and the rest of the group cheered us on. I had a blast doing that. It was a little scary and I was a little nervous once I got on the plank that I was supposed to drop off from. It was so freeing and so much fun to be hanging down on this large rubber band. I'm happy I had that experience, especially celebrating my 50th birthday then. You've also gone to the Galapagos. What's your favorite story about the Galapagos? What struck me is there are many amazing animals, penguins, sea lions, fish and iguanas. It's fascinating to be surrounded by these wonderful creatures that are not timid at all with humans. That was wonderful. I remember, in particular, going snorkeling and seeing manta rays, these giant ones underneath floating and then swimming below me. It was amazing to see their size and beauty. They were golden and had some black spots on them and they were moving on their leisurely pace. It was fantastic. We did cover the Galapagos episode. We also covered Mont Blanc, which you've done too. What's your favorite story there?       This is a social story. All the hiking was fantastic in particular because we were above the tree line a lot of the time. That was beautiful to see these huge snow-covered mountains in your face and you are looking at them. It was a splendor for me. The social story is that the group I was with, a few of us somehow got into rapping while we were hiking. They come up with these silly tunes and that made me start to create this particular rap, based on all the food that we were eating. I presented that at the end of our tour at our last dinner. One of my colleagues in the group backed me up, making all the funky little rap sounds. We put it together and it was a hoot. We had a great time doing that. That sounds fun. That's a great story. You've got another fun place you're going to, which also has been covered on the Active Travel Adventures Podcast. Tell us about that. I’ll leave to make a trip in the Dolomite Mountains in Italy, north of Venice. I'm very excited about that. I'm excited to be back with a group because I've done some more self-guided hiking in the last couple of years. I'm going to be with a group again, which I look forward to. I'm looking forward to the scenery and the exercise because that's what we love about hiking is the workout too. It's going to be good. Annie, who I interviewed on the Dolomiteepisode, has traveled all over the world. She's done everything and she said that was the perfect trip.She said it was the best mix of exertion, the hiking, the scenery, the people and the foods. I’ll carry that with me for sure. Any other thoughts on solo travel or adventure travel you'd like to share? Seize the day. There's so much to see out there and so much to do. Get out there and do it. --- There's nothing like going on an adventure. Finally, for our last interview on solo travel, we're going to get a guy's perspective. Can you start by introducing yourself, please? My name is Jason Waitkins and I am 37. How did you first get into adventure travel?   My first trip was in 2003. I wanted to visit New Zealand. I was reading about it growing up and it sounded like a cool and awesome place. The Lord of the Rings came out and that propelled me even more. I'm like, “I have to go here.” In 2003, I went. I didn't want to go there just to sightseeing. I wanted to hike. That's what drove me into that being my first trip. Were you already pretty active before you got into adventure travel? Yes, I hiked. I grew up and my parent's house is right next to a section of the Appalachian Trail. I grew up knowing, “That's the longest marked trail in the United States,” and all that. I hiked the sections of it nearby. I then branched out from there. There are some pretty nice and interesting trails not far from where I live. Where is that? New York. I'm in what's called the Hudson Valley region. I grew up in Garrison, which is the town south of Cold Spring. It has become a hikers town because there are a few challenging trails near there. It's easily accessible from New York City. On the weekends, a lot of hikers come up on the trains because you can easily get off at the Cold Spring Station and travel around and you don't need a car. You can work your way back to the station. Our topic is solo travel. Is that something you've always done or is this something new for you? I pretty much always did solo initially because growing up, it was a small town. I was one of the few who liked adventure travel, so it was only me. I enjoyed it a lot. I always join a group usually. If it’s a tour, there's a group I usually end up joining. If they're not solo, then they are either with a friend or a spouse or whatever. We are there for the same thing. It's a good way to meet new people. What would you consider the pros and cons of solo travel? My best thing is I can pretty much go when I want. I can center around my schedule. There's no coordination. If there are two, three or more people traveling, it's going to be harder to get time off from work, for example. For me, I prefer solo traveling for the most part because it's easy to coordinate with myself. I look at the dates, “This trek is going here and I can go here at this point and I have a certain amount of time off I can take.” I did one adventure trek with my father not too long ago and we do have to coordinate. There was a little more work involved to make sure, “We're going to do this. We both have time off. We can both get there without issue. We’re both fit enough. We both know what we're getting into and all that.” There are pros and cons to each, but for me, I have a set of places I'd like to go, a set number of countries or treks that I'd want to do and want to visit. To me, it's easier. If I don't know anyone else who wants to do it with me, I go ahead and do it. You make an excellent point because not only do you have to coordinate the time schedules but also the physical difficulty rating is consistent for both parties and all parties. At the time, my father had some knee problems at the moment, but at the time, he was okay. It was a not too challenging trip, at least graded three. We always look at the gradings of the trip with a grain of salt. You have to know what you can and can't do. It's better to read the descriptions rather than just reading by the number they give. The company we were with, they assigned numbers one through six, six being the hardest and this one is graded two. Afterward, I say, “This was more like a three,” and it was because we were in Scotland. There are a few sections where there was no trail, it was pretty much bushwhacking and it was muddy. Walking through that section was quite difficult more so than it was. Even our leaders said that. You have to be careful. Make sure everyone can do it and make sure you know what you're getting into. Female solo travelers have a few different concerns than males. Can you talk about safety as a solo traveler from the male perspective? I personally have never been worried about my safety, but it is always a consideration. My first big travel was to New Zealand, which is generally a country more on the safe side. My next travel was in Peru, which is a developing country. I read up quite a bit on it. What vaccines do I need to get? What is the crime rate? I always read up on the countries I'm visiting, although you also have to take those with a bit of a grain of salt. A website I usually go to at least at first to check out the country I'm visiting is the US State Department website because it gives descriptions on visa requirements and any vaccines that are recommended. I always try to look that up. It also tells what the crime is. However, it is over-exaggerated to a degree. You always read about the bad things and I also look at what they say of the crime is. However, it tends to be over-exaggerated sometimes because you will only read about the bad things. They'll always say there are very high crimes and there are police corruptions or there's this or there's that. You’ve got to be aware of your surroundings is what I always do. When I was growing up because I lived close to New York City but not in it, going to New York City, I was always told like, “Put everything in your front pocket, not your back pocket. Watch out for muggers. Watch out for this or that, anyone who tries to bump into you.” You've got to be diligent and to do that. As a solo traveler, the first time where I was there ahead of when the official tour, I was joining started was in Peru in Cusco. I want to go there. I was worried about acclimatizing to the altitude and so I got there a day ahead of the main tour and walked around. I was feeling winded at least at first. I ended up adjusting perfectly fine. I was looking in all directions and making sure there were a lot of people around. No one ever came up and I never felt unsafe, but I was extra careful. The thing I do is a lot of the pants I wear for general walking around have zippers on them. I don't know if that helps or hurts. My biggest concern is my passport or my wallet getting stolen. Let's talk a little bit about what you feel when you're doing an adventure, whether it's hiking, paddling, cycling, and you do it solo. There's the possibility that you get hurt and there's nobody around to help you. Do you have any concerns about that or is that one reason that you do group travel? I experienced that personally. A couple of years ago, I was hiking in Acadia National Park in Maine. I ended up slipping and falling and not able to stand. I was traveling solo at that point. I had to take out my cell phone and I dialed 911. There were a few trekkers who walked by. This was a day hike. I wasn't backpacking or anything like that, but still, it was a very rugged terrain. A couple of hikers nearby stopped and said, “We'll wait until people come and get you.” They had to carry me off and that was a humbling experience. I kept thinking, “I'm not going to fall or this isn't going to happen. I'm still within civilization. I'm not in another country.” I can only imagine what would have happened if I was on the Inca Trail, where you have to hike for three days. What would have happened if that happened? Having a group and having a leader there who at least always had a radio or a cell phone to contact whoever that is, it’s quite comforting and more so now than it was many years ago. I did an episode on safetyon adventure travel and also another interesting story is the episode Part Two of the Kilimanjaroseries where our guest had to go down the mountain on a stretcher. It's a very interesting episode in that regard. Let's move on from the scary things and let's talk about how do you choose where you want to go next. When I first started this back in the early 2000s, I had a bucket list. The main two were I want to visit New Zealand, I want to hike there, and I want to hike the Inca trail. I was reading about how beautiful the trail is, how it's a great payoff ending up in Machu Picchu, which is also beautiful. After that, I started making a list of countries and places I wanted to visit and then looking at, “I want to visit here. I want to do this. Where's this located?” My biggest goal after making the Inca Trail was Kilimanjaro. I said, “Where is that? That's in Tanzania. That's in Africa.” I went from there. “What else is there?” Choosing that trip, there are a lot of tour companies that do Kilimanjaro and the one I ended up picking with was one that was doing a specific route up the mountain. It had extra days. It was more expensive, unfortunately, but it had extra days while climbing and it did a specific way. It did the Western Breach if you're aware of that trail, which most companies do the other way. This one, we did the Western Breach. We stayed in the Crater Camp, which is also rare for that, but I figured that was good for getting used to the altitude. That's why I ended up going with that tour company. Beyond that, there's a list of countries I'd like to visit. The main ones were Kilimanjaro, Galapagos was one, and the next one that I haven't done yet is the Alps, which is on my bucket list. Basically, I said, “Where can I hike that I haven't hiked before?” I started looking at the companies I've gone with before and a few other notable ones. I look at what they offer to see if it's financially feasible, if time-wise it's feasible. I pretty much go from there. I have a semi-life goal to visit every country in the world. I don't think I'm going to get there, but I want to visit and hike everywhere I can. I go with the ones I want to the most and I've done quite a few of them but there's still quite a few left. Have you found that solo travel has changed you in any way? Initially, I don't know if I felt different. I enjoy it like that's my vacation. That's how I get away from it. My first few trips, I wouldn't even take my cell phone with me. I'd leave it at home and that was my disconnection from the everyday hustle and bustle. As far as changing me, I don't know if I have an answer for you. It's helped me grow a certain way like enjoying because I live alone. I'm single and pretty much live alone. To me, it's a great way to meet new people because even if you're not with a group, you're always going to meet someone on the trail most likely. That's the way I interact with people, my fellow hikers. I don't know if it changed me in any way other than that. It's just something that drives me to continue going. I have places to visit. I want to keep going. Have you kept up with any of the people you've met on the trails? A few but not too many. There are a few like with Kilimanjaro because that was such a small group and that was a long track. It was a long trip. The whole trip was eighteen days, but to trek up the mountain was nine days total. We got to know each other well. We still communicate through email every once in a while. It’s usually around the anniversary, which is late January. We usually send emails saying, “It's been five years, it's been six years, how is everybody doing?” There are two people who I do send a Christmas card to because they send one to me each year. We write down what treks we've done or what we're planning on doing. They sent me one a few years ago and they said, “We finally made the Inca Trail that you talked about. It was as you described it. It was great.” I always write down what I did. “I did the Galapagos. I did Nepal and all that.” A lot of people, when they find out that I'm going to be traveling solo, say, "Aren't you scared or don't you get lonely?" What advice would you give somebody that's on the fence and trying to decide whether or not they should try a solo trip? Try to join a group of some kind, an adventure trekking tour where you'll be joined with other people, preferably a smaller group. A nice number would be between eight, twelve, fourteen people is probably ideal because then it's not too big and it's not too small. Do that. Try to look up an organized tour of an area where you want to visit, whether it's Machu Picchu or somewhere in Europe, wherever. See if you can find a tour company that has a group that you can join because of the way I see it, everyone is there to do what you're doing. We're here to hike this trail. We're here to visit this landmark or whatever it is. That's going to be a thing you have in common. Every trip I've been to, I'm nervous when I step off the airplane, especially if it's a country where English isn't the first language. I made it through passport control. I handed them my passport. They stamped and I went through. I'm like, “Where's the meetup point?” I'm always worried that I'm going to miss the meetup. It's never been a problem. Usually, they always say, “The leader is going to either hold a sign or they're going to be wearing a brand of shirt of some kind.” I came back from Ireland and we had to meet in Belfast in a small out of the way bus station. There was a bus station and the train station and they're both connected by a hallway. I was walking back and forth a couple of times through it because the leader was late by five to ten minutes. I was worried like, “Am I missing this tour? What's going on?” I ended up seeing, “There she is.” She ended up walking through and she was trying to find parking because parking was limited in that station. Everyone nearby walked up and said, “I'm part of this group.” I get nervous for the meetup, but once the meetup is done, we all say hello, and we're all like, “Let’s go. Let's do this.” By the end of the trip, we're all saying our goodbyes and saying, “It was a pleasure to meet you and this was fun,” and everything. If you're worried about traveling solo, to sum it up, it's good because you're going to be with other people who are like-minded, possibly other solo travelers, and you don't have to worry too much about the organization. Everything's planned out for you. You just got to get to the location. You make a good point. When you use a tour company, they pretty much take you by the hand. You don't have to worry about the logistics of getting to the different places, which can be quite complicated, particularly if you're traveling solo and you can't juggle cars or whatnot. It makes it a lot easier for you, plus you're solo but with company. In certain countries like I'm about to take an Italy trip. I was going to take a few days ahead of the tour to visit some of the cities and I sat and planned. That was fun now because I can quickly look up, “I can take the train from Rome to Venice. That sounds good.” What hotels are nearby and whatever? I'll just join. My whole plan is I've got to get to where I meet the tour in Venice. After that, all I’ve got to care about is my flight home is the day they drop us off like, “That's it, done. I don't have to plan anymore.” If you're new to the program, I do a Travel Planner for each of the destinations that we cover on the show.You can download these for free by going to the page for each corresponding destinationor go to the directory page and click on the destination and get it from there. If you sign up for my monthly newsletter, you will get them automatically for free. It's my way to help you plan your adventures with confidence. It will have weather information, safety information, recommended tour companies and suggested itineraries. Everything on a handy, usually a two-page printer-friendly with active links document so that you have on one piece of paper everything you need to know and do to plan your adventure. How about we finish up with you sharing some of your favorite stories from your trips. When I name off some of the adventures I know you've taken, can you tell us your favorite go-to story when you think about that destination? Let's start with Annapurna, which is one of my most popular episodes. For those unfamiliar with Annapurna, it's in Nepal. I wanted to see the Himalayas. I didn't want to do Everest because I had already done Kilimanjaro. I was climbing so high to see altitude for the sake of saying I climbed it. That's not on my bucket list anymore. Annapurna, that whole circuit was very beautiful. You see a lot of mountains one after the other. Each one beautiful and the highlight was completing it, getting to Annapurna base camp. I forget the altitude offhand, but that was actually a trek. We had pretty good weather and we got up early one day and saw the sunrise over. I got some great photos of the sunrise over the Himalayas and that was probably the best. It was maybe not of the hiking part, but it was interesting being in the city of Kathmandu, the capital city. It was quite interesting that it was organized chaos on the roads. The section where we went, the Thamel area, where there are a lot of trekkers. The roads are very narrow and everyone was walking around. It was quite a cultural experience to see how people every day get up and do this, but from a hiking standpoint, every day had more beautiful views than the next. What about your first adventure trip to New Zealand? My favorite location, I enjoyed the area where we went to Milford Sound. It was very beautiful. It rained that morning and then it stopped. Our guide had told us this is perfect. When it rains there will be a lot more waterfalls that you'll see because a lot of them just trickle or whatever while it's sunny out. When it rains and after the rain, you'll see a lot. That was beautiful walking around that area. I also enjoyed Mount Aspiring National Park. That one we walked in and we camped in a hut for a night. It snowed that night. On the way back it was snow covered. It’s not a lot. It was maybe an inch or two, but it was cool to have pictures going one way where it's all green grass and clear, and coming back, everything was snow covered. It was beautiful. How about your Galapagos adventure? Did you do just the Galapagos or did you also do mainland Ecuador? I did both. In terms of hiking, I enjoyed the mainland better without a doubt. I can't remember the town we were in, but it was a town down in the jungle. We did what was called reverse canyoning, which is climbing up waterfalls. These waterfalls aren't like the raging waterfall. They are not the Niagara Falls type waterfalls. It was an awesome and challenging, but not too challenging, hike through the rainforest. They told us ahead of time, “You're going to get wet. If your camera isn't waterproof, don't bring it.” It was nice. It was a three-hour hike to where we were going through rivers and up the waterfalls and whatever. It was an hour or two off the trail that was dry to get back to where we were. The Galapagos itself, honestly, the best thing was snorkeling and Kicker Rock. We came up close with hammerhead sharks and they said, “You don't need to worry.” There were quite a few times where I was like, "Are you sure we don't need to worry?" Swimming and seeing, I saw at least three types of sharks. There's a Galapagos shark. The whitetip reef was the other one. We saw quite a lot. There were tons of wildlife in this little area snorkeling. We spotted eagle rays. They are beautiful, that’s another thing. I can't say enough how awesome the sea turtles looked. Everyone that I saw was beautiful. Whether it was sitting still in the areas where we saw them resting or whether they're swimming. The Galapagos, hands down. It was the snorkeling. We did hike a couple of spots, but these hikes were nothing compared to the mainland. You've made some killer trips. How about Patagonia? The biggest accomplishment with Patagonia was definitely the W Trek. That was difficult. It was the second hardest trek I've been on because the way we did it was the first day we go up to Torres del Paine or The Towers of Blue. That was twenty kilometers total round trip. That was the first day and by the end of the day, everything was hurting. I was like, “We've got four more days of this? What did I sign up for?” After that, the next day was only eleven kilometers and it was mostly flat. That was a joke there. They always would say mostly flat. It was never properly flat. It was always ups and downs all over the place. That’s the whole completing the W Trek. After the second day, I was like, “This wasn't too bad. I'm going to do this.” I've never backed down from a hike before. “I'm doing this.” The very last day was beautiful viewpoints over the huge Grey Glacier. That was the biggest accomplishment and the best hike of the Patagonia trip. When is your next adventure? I'm going to Italy and hiking the Dolomites. It's my first trekking in mainland Europe. I've trekked in Ireland and I've trekked in Scotland, but I've never trekked in mainland Europe. It's been on my bucket list and I'm doing it. I'm sure you're going to enjoy that. Annie who I interviewed on the Dolomites, who has traveled the world and done amazing adventures all over the world, said that was the perfect trip. It was the perfect mix of culture, food, hiking people, everything. She said it's marvelous. I'm looking forward to it for that reason. Do you have any final thoughts for our readers? The only thing I can think of is if you're worried about solo traveling, just do it. Go with a tour company. You don't have to organize it completely by yourself. That sounds like a daunting task even for me now. Do it. You won't regret it. I agree because you can plan regular travel on your own but trying to plan the logistics for adventure travel is super difficult. I always recommend using a small group tour company. Seeing some of the trips I've been on, there's no way I would've been able to know to do some of these things or been able to organize it. There are a lot of logistics going on there with fees and permits and all that. Not only is planning an adventure trip logistically difficult oftentimes, particularly in foreign countries, but it can also save you money by using a small group tour company. You don't have to rent all the different vehicles and hire different guides in different places. It's all planned for you and you have the benefit of having other people help share that expense. It's been great having Jackie, Jason and Monica on the program to help share their insights in solo travel. I'd like to share with you some of the rules that I've made for myself now that I'm doing solo travel. These are in no particular order and many don't apply if you're with a small group tour because all this is taken care for you. If I'm truly traveling solo, here are some of my rules. I want to know where I'm staying that night by noon. I don't mind winging it and figuring out my itinerary and such when I get to a place, but I want to know where I'm going to rest my head. I'll make sure I book something at least by noon of the day that I'm going to be staying somewhere. I make sure I arrived before dark, in case I get lost or run into some other complication. I always keep my eyes on my food and drink, making sure they don't leave my sight. I don't go to the restroom and leave my drink on the table so I don't have to worry about somebody slipping a drug into it. I'm careful of overly friendly locals, particularly if they have no reason to be overly helpful. You might find somebody on a bus or a train that says, “Let's share a cab,” or they're all of a sudden your best friend. Often that could be a setup for a con that it's their partner in crime that you're “sharing the cab” with. Be a little bit cautious about that. Get your hotel to call you a taxi or take the ride share programs like Uber or Lyft and use somebody that's got multiple stars. When you get to an area, ask the locals about the area. Show them a paper map and have them circle areas that you should avoid. When traveling, always be aware and keep mindful of your situation. Be aware of who's around you and if the hairs rise in the back of your neck, your subconscious has seen something that you may not even be aware of. Take action and don't be afraid to make noise telling somebody to back off or make a scene. I know we're raised to be polite, but that is not the time to be polite. That’s the time for you to make a commotion. When you're in an area particularly if you don't know, always have an exit plan. Figure out how do you get out of the situation should something arise. Make sure somebody knows where you're going to be and what time you should be there and at what time they should raise the red alert. If you're traveling internationally and don't want to use up your data, still periodically turn on your phone so that your phone registers the GPS of your last known location. If you're not sure if solo travel is for you, try doing what I call doing the plus one. Wherever you are in your comfort zone, push it a little bit so that way you stretch your boundaries. Build up your courage, build up your self-confidence, and get the benefits that I keep talking about by doing this travel. You're not going to regret it. If you've never taken a trip by yourself, why don't you try going for a weekend? It doesn't have to be some big exotic place. Go someplace by yourself for a weekend and see what it's like. Maybe after that, you'll have the courage to try a week and then perhaps after that you might try going on some international trip. Each time you do it, push yourself just a little bit more outside of your comfort zone. In all the times I've traveled and all the places I've gone, I truly have never had an incident that I can even relay to a problem. You heard the same thing from our guests, particularly Jackie who has been everywhere, has never had an incident and she's been doing this for many years. We also talked about a whole bunch of destinations. You can go to the directory page and click on any of the different destinations and see all the cool places we've covered on this program. Finally, I'd like to ask you, as I'm planning the adventures that we're going to be doing, can you reach out to me? I don't care if it's email at Kit@ActiveTravelAdventures.com, via Facebookor our Facebook group, at Twitter @Kit_Parks, on Instagram, @Parks.Kit. Let me know where you do want to go so I can put together the programs that you need to plan your next big adventure. I will be back with another great adventure. Until then, this is Kit Parks, adventure on. Important Links: Traveling Jackie The Budget-Minded Traveler Travelling Jackie blog CouchSurfing Active Adventures Cotswold Way– Past episode Galapagos– Past episode Mont Blanc– Past episode Dolomite– Past episode Safety– Past episode Kilimanjaro– Past episode Directory Page– Active Travel Adventures Annapurna– Past episode Patagonia– Past episode Kit@ActiveTravelAdventures.com Facebook– Active Travel Adventures Facebook group- Active Travel Adventures Closed Group @Kit_Parks- Twitter @Parks.Kit- Instagram Love the show? Subscribe, rate, review, and share! Here’s How » Join the Active Travel Adventures Community: activetraveladventures.com Active Travel Adventures Facebook Page Active Travel Adventures Facebook Group Active Travel Adventures Twitter Active Travel Adventures Instagram Active Travel Adventures YouTube Kit Parks LinkedIn

Sustainable Travel Our Guest today is Lauren Chu of the Ridgeline Report. As the world gets more crowded and the increase of the middle class around the world means that there are more folks touring the world, it becomes even more important to consider sustainability and our part.   Sustainable travel means we seek to minimize any negative impacts on the local people and environment of the places we visit, so that tourism can continue long term with a neutral or better yet, a positive impact.  Otherwise we risk damaging or ruining the very places we treasure.     Links Mentioned in this Episode: Active Travel Adventures podcast episodes: Cassis France Whitewater Raft the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon The Ridgeline Report (Lauren’s blog) Subscribe to the Active Travel Adventures podcast Sustainability’s Three Pillars: Environmental, Social and Economic   The Environmental Pillar   The Environmental Pillar seeks to minimize impact on the landscape and wildlife.   You can reduce you impact on the environment by using least the harmful means of transportation.  You can minimize waste by bringing your own reusables and following Leave No Trace principals. Buy (and then properly recycle or dispose) products with minimal packaging. When it comes to local wildlife, be respectful and avoid unethical businesses that exploit their animals.  While not all human-animal encounter tours are unethical, many are and if you saw how the animals were treated out of your sight, you would be appalled.   Sure it’s cool to ride an elephant, but did you know that some companies keep them chained on a small leash when not in service? Heart breaking! Do your homework before you go on an animal encounter tour and choose the responsible tour operator.  Call and ask questions, and while they might lie, as many companies “Green Wash” and act so responsible, dig deeper and ask HOW are they implementing their policies?   We all want to see the animals, but seek to find companies that put the health and wellness of the animals first.  Sadly this means that often you won’t have the super close encounter that you want, but it will be better for the animals.  Seek companies that show you the animals from more of a distance. Then you will also be seeing their natural behavior instead of tourist inspired behavior.   The Social Pillar   The Social Pillar consides how we impact the local community and its people.  To help prop up the social pillar, try to use local businesses, buy local food, and enjoy local tourism projects.    If you hire a tour company, ask if they are they using locals guides and are they taking you to the local restaurants and markets?    As relaxing as they may be, an all inclusive resort discourages leaving the compound, so while they are often using local foods and employees, the surrounding local businesses won’t get the benefit your tourism dollars unless you get out of the compound and wander.  Also, check to see whether the companies you hire are treating their employees fairly.  Lauren advises reaching out to a recent visitor on Trip Advisor and seeing if they’ll answer a couple of questions for you about their experience with a company.  Consider volunteering with local charitable projects.  Make sure any volounteer work you do is actually assisting local people help themselves.  I have found some NGO’s seem to put an ineffective bandage on a problem rather than truly helping to solve a problem,  because actually solving a problem puts them out of business. I prefer locally led organizations myself.  Instead of bringing things from your home country to distribute to needy in the country you are visiting, BUY THE NEEDED ITEMS LOCALLY.  I went on a mission trip to Haiti and was appalled to discover that we brought hundreds of pounds of beans and rice.  Sounds nice, no? Except we literally stole the sales from the mouths of the local businesses.  Instead, bring things they CAN’T buy locally, and then buy what you can from small local vendors.  That’s how you can really help!  In addition, LEARN ABOUT THE CULTURE.  If nothing else, take a few minutes to read the Wikipedia site about the country you are visiting.  There you will get a brief overview of their land and history which can help put what you see and the people you meet in some context.  I also like to check out this fascinating website that caters to business people doing international business, but this one page can give you a quick snapshot of the common embedded beliefs of a nation.   Bookmark it to check out before your next adventure!  Be sure to understand the cultural norms so that you don’t inadvertently offend the locals like the backpackers did in Malaysia that Lauren told us about.  A quick Google search can help you here. Remember that even though we are fascinated by the people and cultures that we visit, they are living what we consider an adventure as their everyday lives.  Do not treat their lives as a tourist attraction but rather meet with them on a one to one human level to learn more about the hows and whys of their lives which can help you gain insight into your own.  And remember, ask permission before taking a close up photograph.  People are not on display for your entertainment.   The Economic Pillar Really a sidebar to the Social Pillar discussed above:  buy from local vendors, choose locally owned and operated lodging, go with tour companies that hire local guides and treat them ethically.   Economic sustainability and following responsible tourism practices can not only help improve the lives of the people you encounter, but sustainable tourism means that it will continue to do so in the long term. Ecotourism is bandied about and the greenwashers will tout that they are eco friendly.  Do your homework to make sure they are not just riding the wave of what is trendy to call themselves.  Call them up, Lauren says, and ASK THEM not just about their sustainability policies and ethical treatment of employees, but ask them HOW they implement their policies.  It’s a good bet that a greenwasher will have all the right answers to the first question, but they are likely to flounder when explains the answers to the second.   Question:  Are you helping or hurting the places you love and visit???   Question:  Are you making the most responsible choice in regards to the three pillars when you go on your adventures?   Complete Transcript: Note that this is an unedited machine transcription, so there will be boo boo’s.  I offer this for those that prefer to read rather than listen to the show.     Kit Parks: (00:00) A quick glance through Instagram and you can see our public lands plus the even incredibly remote and inaccessible landscapes sound the most fragile and beautiful environments in the world are getting really crowded and I get it. You want to see them? I want to see them. They're special for a reason, so what can we do to make these lands and make these environments and our impact on them more sustainable? Today we're going to look at our impact, both positive and negative on the people and the landscapes and the places that we visit. Welcome to the adventure travel show podcast. I'm your host kit parks. This is a companion podcast to the Active Travel Adventures podcast. On this podcast you're going to learn about the how tos of adventure travel. Whereas on ATA, you're going to learn about destinations. I encourage you to subscribe to both today. I've got a great guest, Lauren Chu from the Ridge Line report whose specialty is talking about sustainability and safety in the wild and it's a great interview. I can't wait to share it with you. So at that further ado, let's get on with our interview with Lauren.    Kit Parks: (01:19) I was recently in Portland, Maine for the Women In Travel Summit and was lucky enough to meet Lauren at the opening night party. Lauren has an extensive background on wilderness safety and sustainability plus guiding in the wilderness. Welcome to the show. Lauren. Lauren Chu: Thank you so much. I'm super happy to be here. You've got a great background. And could you just tell us a little bit... I got a little bit about it from you that night and also on the website, but can you give us a little bit of a brief summary of, of who you are and the things that you've learned and some of your training and background?    Lauren Chu: (01:49) Yeah, absolutely.  So I went to school for engineering. So I studied engineering and after a few years in the workplace, I kind of found that my desire to be outside and kind of be connected to nature was far stronger than my desire to be working with machinery. And so for the past few years I've been working as a guide and as a kind of facilitator for programs around the world. So I work leading groups on hiking trips and I also work for an organization that does educational travel for students.    Kit Parks: (02:21) Cool. Cool. Now adventure travel has become huge when people even my age are doing it. So can you tell us a little bit about the rise of adventure travel on? Where's the buzz there? What's making it so cool these days to go on adventure travel?    Lauren Chu: (02:33) Yeah, it's a great point. And I think really what I've come to realize is that adventure travel is almost synonymous with travel in a lot of ways these days. I mean, everybody's looking for a hike or an off the beaten path experience or some way to reconnect with nature. And I think there's a few things that have contributed to this. I mean, the rise of adventure travel in pop culture has a lot to do with celebrities and celebrity status. I mean you think of Red Bull and the way that they've just elevated extreme sports athletes to kind of be these pop culture icons. And then you know, that fantastic movie, Wild with Reese Witherspoon came out of this one woman's journey along the Pacific Crest Trail and it kind of just skyrocketed her to start them as well. And it brought through hiking and that kind of backcountry experience to light again. And then even environmentalism has always been important in the past few decades. But recently it's become really mainstream. I mean, Nat Geo- National Geographic-  just won an Oscar for their work on Free Solo, which is incredible. But again, it's just created this idea that adventure travel is the norm and it's something that we should all be seeking.    Kit Parks: (03:38) Is Adventure travel harmful to some of the places that we go to in any way? Let's talk first... Let's break it into two sections. Let's talk about the impact on the local culture and the people. And then let's talk about the impact on the environment. So can you address, how does all of a sudden this mass of humanity, now we're invading some of these really remote places now in mass, how is that affecting the local people for good and for bad?    Lauren Chu: (04:03) Right. I think it's a fantastic question because when we think of these remote places and traveling to them, I mean these are the world's most fragile environments, both socially and environmentally. There's significant impacts that that can be had. There's one example I think of and Mount Kinabalu is the highest peak in Malaysia. And there was a group of backpackers a few years ago who decided they wanted to climb it and for some reason felt compelled to take photographs naked on top of this mountain. And you know, despite multiple warnings from their local guides to not do that, they took off their clothes. They had a picture taken, it was this harmless act of fun-ness or horseplay or whatever it was. And they actually ended up being jailed because of the disrespect that they had done to what was a very sacred place for the local people. And so while well intentioned and while I think it's important that we really get out there and take those risks, you know, there's a lot of considerations to be had for the people who live the adventure every day of their lives.    Kit Parks: (05:04) To us it is an adventure to them, like I think I heard you say that their reality, that's their everyday life.    Lauren Chu: (05:07) That's right. I mean we think about going on, you know, this Himalayan adventure or this Amazonian cruise through this epic wild landscape and for the people who live there and who have lived there for ever, it's the reality and it's something that they've had to grapple with is, is this big influx of people who want to see this adventure or to live this adventure and to ask somebody to share their everyday life kind of like a show or, or as a performance,  is really tricky and there's a lot of education that I think we can do as travelers ahead of time to respect those people in that culture.  Kit: Give us some examples.   Lauren Chu: (05:57)   So, I mean I think a lot of it is really just doing your research and it's hard and it takes time. But I think we have the responsibility to do it.  And it could be as simple as understanding the history of the people. So who lives there, you know, how long have they been there is, are there any sort of cultural norms or tendencies I might want to be aware of and then doing your research on, on a provider. So who is going to be taking you there and what is their relationship with the land? Do they live there? Are they from there? Do they understand the impacts that these activities have? And again, it does take a bit of effort, but it is entirely worth it. And I think it's fantastic that more people are looking for these kinds of ethical experiences.    Kit Parks:  (06:38)  That reminds me of the story. When I was in Bangkok, I was on a boat and one of the floating markets and what a floating market is, is all the vendors are on boats too.  And they're just kind of going through the alleyways in the canals and the waterways trying to sell their wares. And I always try to ask permission before I take a closeup photo of anybody anyway.  But just to be on the safe side, this one woman marketing, she had a couple of different things in the boat... I can't remember what they were though, but what you saw that we were tourists put her finger in front of our face and shook her head like, “No, no, no. I am not a tourist attraction!”  And I thought that was very interesting. I never forgot her. Of course, obviously I honored her request. I mean we've got to remember that there are everyday people just like us, they just have a different culture than what we're used to, which makes them fascinating to us. However, you still need to build a relationship before you just go snap in people's photos.    Lauren Chu: (07:20) Absolutely. And there's so much opportunity act for learning when we meet with these people who are so different from us. And instead of seeing them as canvas spectacle or an object to view or to enjoy, it's actually what can we learn from them and what are they doing that could be interesting or impactful for us. And a lot of times they're curious about us as we are about them. Absolutely. Particularly if they don't see a lot of tourists. And you know, there's, there's entire industries that have been created around big adventure travel destination. So Mount Kilimanjaro is a great example that I always kind of come back to. And I've had the chance to lead a group up to Mount Kilimanjaro and for me, the adventure wasn't so much in the hike, which was beautiful, don't get me wrong, but the adventure was in connecting with the people of Tanzania and understanding the vast, like the, the different tribes and cultures and diversity of culture that exists in Tanzania.    Lauren Chu: (08:20) And it's, it's a really great learning tool.  Kit Parks:  And Kilimanjaro and Nepal makes me think of something else to, depending on the guides that we hire, we're either helping or hurting the local people because there's great companies that properly pay and train their people and there's others that exploit the people and just take the money and actually take it out of the countries. So I think one of our ethical challenges is to look into the companies that we're doing business with to make sure that they're doing things in the manner that you want them to be doing things and choose your tour companies accordingly.    Lauren Chu:  Yeah, absolutely. And you, it's so important to kind of do our research and understand where that money's going, but also not to take away the agency that they have in making it a business because it's such important money for so many communities around the world.    Lauren Chu: (09:06) Right? Tourism is huge. And so instead of saying, we shouldn't contribute to this problem, we shouldn't climb Kilimanjaro, we shouldn't even try. It's actually how can we do it in a way that is mutually beneficial and contributes to a sustainable place that we can continue to visit and climb. And see for years to come. And what do we look for?    Kit Parks:  How do we, I mean, what do I even look for when I go to a website or try to check out an outfitter?    Lauren:  Yeah, it's an honestly a fantastic question and it's one that I continue to grapple with, but I think the best thing you can do is actually try to get in contact with somebody who works there. And yes, you can say, you know, they'll tell you whatever you want to hear, Yada, Yada, Yada. But if you ask questions around how do they pay their employees, how do they hold themselves accountable?    Lauren Chu: (09:54) What are their policies around social justice or environmental justice or, what measures do they take to ensure that the way that they operate is just and fair to their employees? And another thing that I've actually liked doing is reaching out to somebody who's gone on a tour with one of these companies before. So, you know, on TripAdvisor, on any kind of review site, it's a great place to find up to date information. And so I'll, I'll comment on one of the most recent reviews and say, hey, would you mind if I reached out to you? I just have a couple of questions to ask about how you found their policies around x, Y, Z to be, or whatever it is. And, and those are a few things that I, I typically do just to kind of do some surface level of vetting of the companies that on balance.    Kit Parks:  Do you think that this explosion of travel into some of these remote areas is as far as the people are in the culture go a benefit or a detraction or is it a balance or, or where do you stand on that?    Lauren Chu: (10:42)   Yeah, I think I am a huge proponent of adventure travel. I think it is fantastic and I think we should continue to encourage people to take risks and to go outside their comfort zone because that's where the learning happens. I mean, that's, to me the most exciting part of travel is when you learn something, you see something differently or you understand something in a, in a slightly different way. And so I think it is really important to continue to seek these experiences. But I think it's important to recognize that these experiences don't come free, right? There is a cost and will this ever be sustainable? It's a tough word to use, right? Sustainability is more of an ideal than a reality. But I think the more that we have conversations around principles surrounding leaving no trace or ethical travel or who does this benefit, we can certainly work towards a kind of a more humble and curiousype of traveler.    Kit Parks: (11:54) And at least in my experience, it seems that the people are grateful for the tourist dollars that are coming into their local towns and villages.    Lauren Chu: (11:57) That's exactly it, right? I mean they are business people, they are smart entrepreneurial workers who are looking to be involved with this global economy and we should certainly be able to take part of that as well.    Kit Parks: (12:11) So let's switch gears then and let's talk about adventure travel and its impact on the environment. You had mentioned earlier that we're talking about going into some of the world's most fragile areas. I remember, I can't remember where it was, it might have been in Glacier National Park. We were up pretty high and the only vegetation was some little Mossy Lichen on the rocks. And I think they said that it took decades for that Lichen to grow. So when you left the trail and got off trail, you're actually harming decades worth of growth. Can you talk a little bit about this invasion of the people trying to seek out all these cool environments, which like, you know, I'm all gung ho like you, and want to adventure travel, but I do see that as many people get out there that we're not necessarily treating the land with as much respect as we should be.    Lauren Chu: (13:01) That's it. That's a great point. And it's something that is super, super important to recognize. These are the world's most fragile environments and lichen like that, you know, similar to Kilimanjaro, it grows at a rate of a few millimeters per year. Right? So, you know, this is some of the most resilient but yet fragile at the same time, vegetation and life. And I think there's kind of this disconnect between our impact and the reality. So you can think that, oh, there's just so much space out here. It's just so vast. It's so big and it's so beautiful. Like my walking off the trail for a short time or me climbing up this rock to see this different viewpoint isn't gonna make a big difference. But in reality, the more people that do that over time, the bigger the effect that there is. And so, you know, leaving no trace is exactly that.    Lauren Chu: (13:55) It's leaving no trace of you being there. But more than that, to me it's, it's, it's the golden rule. Leave a place the way that you would like to find it. Right? And so it means staying on the trail, it means camping in designated areas. It means not making huge bonfires. It obviously means not leaving trash. And I think the more that we can instill that in people as the norm and not as something that we seek to, that we wish to do, but instead something that we have to do and are supposed to do, the better off we'll be.    Kit Parks: (14:29) Yeah. I remember when I was doing some sections of the Appalachian trail, I would get so irritated with some of the hikers out there because nobody wants to carry weight. You're backpacking. So I get it. We all want to minimize the weight, but when they'd leave their garbage or burn unburnable garbage in the fire areas, I'm like, they came out here for the beauty and then they're marring it for the rest of us and that would really get in my craw a little bit.    Lauren Chu: (14:53) No kidding. Yeah, I’m the same way. And you know, it's tough for, I'm not gonna say,  “Don't make fires”, and I'm not going to say that you can't go to these places, but, but there's certainly a level of responsibility that I think we have to take for each other. Really. It's just, it's looking out for each other.    Kit Parks: (15:08) So let's, let's talk about, so of course we want to stay on the trails and obviously you don't want to cut any live vegetation, trees or branches to make your fire. Can you just identify, leave no trace, I know you talked a little bit about that, but in a nutshell, what does that mean for people when they say when it regards to human waste and toilet paper and their trash?    Lauren Chu: (15:28) Sure. Toilet paper is kind of one of my favorite things to talk about in a funny way. So leave no trace principles are kind of these ethics, it's a kind of a code of ethics that people who travel outdoors and visit these backcountry areas should abide by. And again, the idea is that you leave a place the way that you found it in the way that you would like to find it. And so it means taking only pictures and not leaving garbage. And toilet paper is a, is an interesting one. It seems so light and so fragile and so many people just kind of leave it on the trail. I mean, the number of times that I've come across toilet paper on the trail is, it's just, I can't even, can't even articulate how frustrated it makes me.    Lauren Chu: (16:14) Toilet paper takes, I think around three years to biodegrade and that's in the most fertile environment, like in dirt or in like a forest full of mulch and full of leaves and wet leaves.  But you should really never be leaving toilet paper on the ground. You pack it in and you pack it out. So you just bring a little Baggie with you and you do your thing and then you put the toilet paper in the bag and carry it with you. It shouldn't be buried, it shouldn't be left. And if you don't want to see it on the trail, certainly don't leave it for other people to find.    Kit Parks: (16:48) Right. And actually when people say, “Oh, I bury it”.  But actually animals, will go dig that up too.   Lauren Chu:  Exactly. Exactly.    Kit Parks:  And speaking of like the biodegrading, one of the most irritating times I was up, I was in the little town of Cassis, France and there was this huge, huge cliff bluff that was just like a straight up hike to get up there. And I'm up there first thing in the morning, I got the whole thing to myself. It's absolutely beautiful except for all along the path was toilet paper because it hardly ever rains. So it doesn't decompose and it was disgusting.    Lauren Chu:  That's right. So anyway, I always tell people, bring a baggy, label it trash so you don’t get confused.  And then when you get to town you can dump it and use a fresh bag if you want. You never have to go in it, you know? So it's not a big deal.    Kit Parks:  Yeah, there's even some places now when I interviewed Mike of about rafting the Colorado River, they had to brown bag… they even had to pack out all of their human waste. That's exactly it. Yeah. And so is that common in many places or is that just in some of the really fragile places are parks?    Lauren Chu: (17:50) I would say that's kind of the but is it practice everywhere? No, and you know, in, in Canada or in Ontario anyway, in the places that I spend time, can you tripping in the summer there's what we call “Treasure Boxes”.  And so they're little... they're set up by, you know, Ontario parks or parks Canada and they’re boxes for you to use as a toilet. And so this is kind of their way of focusing on only putting human waste in one place. And so please use those treasure boxes. They're there for a reason.    Kit Parks:  I'd never heard about that before. That's new news. Cool. Cool. So overall do you have some overall thoughts about our impact in the world doing adventure travel?    Lauren Chu: (18:47) Again, I think I just want to kind of balance the idea of risk because taking risk is fantastic. Like I said, I think we should keep doing it. I think everybody needs to push themselves out of their comfort zone and seek these experiences in nature that for, for the past few decades, we've kind of forgotten in a lot of ways.  So that's one side of it. And then, and my, I guess my final thoughts are the more conversations we have and the more we hold each other accountable when it comes to safety and sustainability and adventure travel, we can certainly work towards a type of traveler and in a world and an industry that is sustainable and collaborative and mutually beneficial to everybody involved. And I think we'll get there and I think we can work to get there. And I'm excited to be a part of this new movement of travelers who care.    Kit Parks:  So Lauren you've got the Ridgeline Report. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And I'll put links to all of Lauren's website and blog on the show notes and on the website at adventuretravelshowpodcast.com/sustainability.  And so Lauren, can you tell us a little bit about the Ridgeline Report and whatever else you're up to?    Lauren Chu: (19:37) Yeah, sure. So, The Ridgeline Report is my personal blog and on it I kind of talk about hiking and biking and camping in Canada and around the world. But I do try to kind of provide a lot of resources for people around sustainability and safety. So, you know, I've got a bit on leave no trace principles and how to apply them in reality and just bits on hiking etiquette and, and all that sort of good stuff. So that's what's there.    Kit Parks: Well, I'll be sure, like I said, I'll be sure to link to all that. Lauren, I sure appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks so much.   Lauren Chu: (20:42)Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.    Kit Parks: Our thanks to Lauren for coming on the show. She’s given us a lot to think about and to chew on as we plan our future adventures. Some questions we need to ask ourselves: are we considering the impact that we're making on both the local culture and the environment when we do our adventures and what are some of the things that we can do to have a positive impact and minimize our negative impacts?    Kit Parks: (20:51) I'm going to have tips both from Lauren and from other research on the website, adventuretravelshowpodcast.com/sustainability and of course newsletter subscribers will get the monthly, once a month newsletter that it's going to come automatically. I would like to ask you, this is an important topic to please share this with with your fellow adventurers. It gives us all food for thought about where we stand and what kind of impact we're going to have in the future. In fact, next up I'm going to explore a little bit deeper and we're going to talk about manners. We're going to talk about outdoor and wilderness etiquette. There's lots of things that we're doing right and there's a lot of things we'd be not even realized that we're doing wrong. So we’ll drill down into that so everybody understands what is considered good manners out in the wild, our public lands are getting crowded, shoot for that matter, the whole world is getting crowded and if we all just play nice together, just like our parents taught us, then these beautiful and fragile lands will continue to inspire folks for generations to come. We just all need to work together and to think before we do and consciously choose to have a positive impact, Lauren will be right that we will get there in the future. Again, lots to think about today.    Kit Parks: (22:00) Next up on the companion show podcast, the Active Travel Adventures podcast. We're going to Acadia National Park and I'm super excited to share that with you. So that'll be coming up next week and again, the following week we'll be learning our manners in the wild and until then, thanks for listening. This is Kit Parks, Adventure On!

Eating Right For and On Your Outdoor Adventures Nutrition can be especially important when you are exerting so many calories hiking, biking or paddling!  You are burning a ton of calories, so you need nutritious fuel from the food but you also need a lot of calories.  The conundrum is you are no doubt trying to minimize pack weight.  What to do?  I asked nutrition expert, Lucy Hayhurst of Well Balanced Nutrition to join us on the show today. Meet Lucy Haywurst, Nutritionist and Founder Well Balanced Nutrition Lucy studied Nutrition and Dietetics at the University of Dayton and completed her Dietetic Internship at West Virginia University Hospitals. After becoming a registered dietitian, she moved to Durham, NC and started Well Balanced Nutrition. With over 10 years of practicing nutrition and wellness coaching Lucy offers a unique perspective coming to the table as an expert in behavior change. She helps take what you know and turn it into lifestyle habits. Lucy combines her enthusiasm for fitness and playing in nature with her love for nutritious food and the result is a fun, interactive adventure for her clients. Lucy can light up a room and inspire a crowd. In addition to individual counseling, she is an author and motivational speaker. Fuel vs Fluff Nutritious foods are the fuel that give you the energy for your adventures.  But there is also a place for ‘fluff’! A well balanced diet builds your glycogen stores (carbohydrate energy storehouse).  Fuel your tank with complex carbohydrates such as whole grains, beans, sweet potatoes and such.  The complex carbs burn more slowly and help keep your energy more consistent all day. However, when you need a quick burst of energy, say you are about to do a major ascent, this is the time for fluff, or the simple carbs (think the ‘white’ foods like white bread, chips, etc.):  Lucy loves candy corn and nuts; I prefer a Snickers bar. While researching, I read a great article in Backpacker magazine that had a wonderful analogy from Julia Delves of Trailside Kitchen: “Eating refined carbohydrates is like trying to keep a bonfire going all night with newspaper,” she says.  ” Eating unrefined complex carbohydrates, like brown rice or quinoa, is like using large logs. They burn better and longer, give off better heat, and improve your overall enjoyment.” Fat is Your Friend Not all fats are created equal:  Good fats have Omega 3 and are actually good for you plus make food taste good! Lucy says that a good fat is one that you eat in its original state.  Good sources of Good Fat include avocados, nuts and olive oil.  Contrast this with the high fat in potato chips or candy.  These products have been processed so that they are no longer in their original state.  While ‘baby’ carrots are simply shaved down carrots and are therefore ‘processed’, they are still ‘carrots’ and that is still the only ingredient listed on the package.  Potato chips, on the other hand, will list multiple ingredients, many of which are unpronouncable.  So now it’s no longer just a potato and from the long ingredients list, you have a good indication that potato chips do not include good fats. FREE Monthly Cheat Sheets Download the Nutrition Cheat Sheet and then you will automatically get all future FREE downloads in a once a month email for both the Adventure Travel Show AND Active Travel Adventures podcast – sweet!  Click the box above! I don’t sell your info or spam you – I promise!  Kit Salt is BAD, right?  Wrong!    You can lose a lot of salt and electrolytes while on your outdoor adventures.  Sports drinks are often loaded with sugar (and sometimes TOO much salt).  Lucy recommends adding electrolytes to your water and avoiding the sports drinks.  Lucy likes a tasty electrolyte brand called Skratch.  You can lose about a gram of salt per liter of sweat.  If you see a white ring around your hat or collar, you may be a salty sweater.  And I thought it was sunscreen:)  Another easy and tasty way to add salt is to season your food with hot sauce!  You want the color of your urine to be as clear as possible…if it’s yellow, you are not drinking enough water!  Hydration is just as important as good nutrition!  If you don’t want to carry so much water (it weighs 8 pounds/gallon or 1kg/L), bring a water treatment system.  Learn which one works best for you on Episode 3 of the Adventure Travel Show podcast.  Listen or download here (and see more info!), or on any podcast app. Backpacking Food Lucy says the time it’s most important to focus on nutrition is BEFORE your adventure.  But, you can be a little slack when you are on your adventure.  And sometimes “fluff” can even be helpful! It’s best to graze during the day to keep your energy up, even if it’s just a little.  For someone small like Lucy, a Fig Newton or something similar each hour of hiking works.  Someone larger might need a handful of nuts. ENERGY BARS Often not the best choice.  Try when possible to go with the whole food options like nuts, hard boiled eggs, cheese, etc.  But when you need a burst of energy, an RX Bar would be better for you than a Snickers Bar, but both would give you the necessary burst.  Lucy says that if you can recognize most of the ingredients, you are probably fine.  Nonetheless, the RX Bars are a better choice because they use ingredients you would put on your grocery list.  Best Camping and Backpacking Food Options Healthy backpacking food doesn’t have to weigh a ton.  Here are some of my favorite hiking foods.  Be sure to load up on hiking snacks as it’s best to graze throughout the day.  Your hiking meals can be easy AND nutritious if you choose from the list below.  Breakfast: Instant Oatmeal with nuts, dried fruit and cinnamon. Instant Mashed Potatoes with chunks of Beef Jerky Whole wheat tortilla with peanut butter and dried bananas It’s best to graze all day No crash snacks: Peatnut butter on whole wheat tortilla.  I like to also sprinkle it with raisins and roll it up.  Lasts for days without refrigeration and tastes like a PB&J treat! Honey or Oat Bran Sesame sticks (look for near the produce section).  Mix in some nuts for more fat and protein. Assortment of trail mix: some sweet and some salty so you don’t get tired of it. Dinner: Freeze dried meals are generally more nutritious than dehydrated meals (where the process can dignificantly reduce nutrients).  The freeze dried food retains nutrients but is expensive.  These meals are easy because all you do is add water.  Lucy’s fav is Mountain House Beef Stroganoff. If you want to make your own meals, a hiking buddy RAVES about the food in the cookbook, Lip Smacking Backpacking!  I’ve bought it but haven’t cooked anything from it yet. Other favorites include instant mashed potatoes, pasta and quick cook rice, stuffing mix.  I like the preseasoned pasta dishes and then add tuna or jerky for protein.  Soup mixes are also light yet tasty. For protein, hard cheeses can last a few days without refrigeration.  Hard meats like salami and pepperoni do not require refrigeration. Tuna in the foil packets, especially if packed in olive oil is tasty.  DON’T BRING CANS – too heavy!  The foil package doesn’t take up much room or weigh much in your trash zip bag. FRESH FOOD Alas, most fresh food does not travel well.  You are lucky to get a day out of it, and it is usually pretty heavy since much of it is made of water. If you do bring, say a banana or apple, PACK OUT the skin and core.  Even though it is biodegradable, animals will eat it and then can learn to associate humans with food.  BAD IDEA!  Leave no Trace includes everything! How Much Food to Bring?  The goal is to bring just slightly more than you’ll need.  Many people bring too much food, which means lugging around pounds of excess weight.  Rule of Thumb (adjust for your weight and how long you’ve been out):  1.5 -2.5 pounds of food per day.   GOAL:  Calorie dense food     Example: Let’s say an energy bar has 230 calories and weighs 65g, or 2.3 oz.  230/2.3 = a calorie density of 100.  Compare that to a piece of candy that has 360 calories and weighs 2.5 oz => 360/2.5 = 144.  This means the candy will give you more calories for the weight you are carrying.  So if you are doing a LONG day’s adventure, even though you want to eat nutritiously pre-adventure, for today, you might choose the candy.  For contrast, let’s look at carrots which have  about 40 calories per 100 g, or 3.5 oz.  40/3.5 =11.4 calorie density.  WAY more nutritious, but you’d have to eat almost 13 carrots to get the same calories at the piece of candy (and carry WAY more weight!!!).  Plus, who wants to eat 13 carrots at a time?  If you are just beginning your adventure, you don’t need quite as much as these figures, I’ve discovered the hard, heavy way.  I find it takes several days for my body to become a calorie craving machine! Calorie Rule of Thumb:  Shoot for 120-130 calories/oz Naughty Food Company Tricks Enriched:  They’ve taken out the whole grain goodness and replaced it with refined flour and some vitamins.  Go for the whole grains instead. Natural:  This term really means nothing when it comes to food labeling.  Ignore it. Multi-Grain:  Just because it’s multi-grain doesn’t mean it’s WHOLE grains (see enriched above). Cholesterol or Gluten-Free:  You’ll see this often on packages that NEVER had cholesterol or gluten to begin with.  The company is just trying to ride a trend.  You’ll see this trend bandwagon also with the word “protein”. “Protein”  is sometimes soy protein isolate, which while a protein, not something you’d put on your grocery list.  Lucy encourages us to buy foods that have ingredients we recognize and would put on our grocery list. Reach out to Lucy for:  Nutritional Education Wellness Coaching Learn Intuitive and Mindful Eating Get Lucy’s helpful FREE Newsletter packed with recipes, motivation and ideas! Apply for a FREE coaching Call! Snicker Trifle Thanks to the MSR Summit Register for the recipe!  Check out this link for more of their great backpacking recipes! Ingredients: ¼ Jell-O Chocolate Fudge Pudding 3 tbsp. Powdered Milk 1 tbsp. Powdered Butter ¼ cup Caramel Bits 3 tbsp. Kraft Jet-Puffed Marshmallow Bits 2 tbsp. chopped roasted and salted peanuts Frontcountry (before you head out): Add all ingredients to a Ziploc bag and mix to incorporate. On the trail: When you arrive at camp, add ¾ cup cold water to the dried mixture. Stir thoroughly to incorporate. Seal the bag. By the time you’ve finished setting up camp for the night, the trifle will have set and will be ready to eat. Enjoy! Jason Koop’s Secret Rice Ball Recipe Jason Koop trains and coaches athletes.  This is the rice ball recipe Lucy recommended.  Learn more about Jason and his coaching here. Sweet and Salty Rice Balls Makes about 12 rice balls. 2 Eggs 1 1/2 Cups Uncooked Basmati Rice 2 Tbsp. Honey 1 Tbsp. Soy Sauce Instructions: Cook the rice. Scramble and cook the eggs. Combine rice, eggs, honey, and soy sauce in a larger mixing bowl. Scoop small portions into sandwich bags and tie the ends off. Per Ball: Calories 115 // Carbohydrate 20 g // Protein 2 g // Sodium 327 mg [blog_promo promo_categories=”camp” ids=”” /] Bacon and Egg Rice Balls Makes about 12 rice balls. 2 Eggs 2 Strips Bacon 1 1/2 Cups Uncooked Basmati Rice 2 oz. Grated Parmesan Cheese Salt to Taste Instructions: Cook the rice. Scramble and cook the eggs. Cook the bacon. Drain excess fat and chop. Combine rice, eggs, bacon, cheese, and salt in a larger mixing bowl. Scoop small portions into sandwich bags and tie the ends off. Per Ball: Calories 133 // Carbohydrate 18 g // Protein 4 g // Fat 5 g // Sodium 327 mg   The links on this site may contain affiliate links which means I may earn a small commission if you use them.  I encourage you to use them if you are going to buy the item anyway because at no additional cost to you, you are supporting and helping to defray the cost of this podcast.  Many thanks!   Lucy’s Well Balanced Workbook TGIM Check out Lucy’s 52 week workbook to help you get on track.  It’s only $1.99! Complete Transcription Note:  This transcription is 'machine' transcribed so there is bound to be boo boo's.  However, it will give you a general idea and time stamp of when who said what:)   Kit: (00:00) To pack or not to pack, to eat or not to eat and what to eat. That is the question. That is the adventures dilemma. Eat impact the food fuel you'll need to successfully complete your adventure while minimizing pack weight, learn tips and rules of thumb of what food to pack on your next adventure. I'm also learned when it's a great idea to eat candy corn, all this and more coming up next, welcome to the venture travel show podcast. I'm your host kit parks. Whether you're backpacking, day packing, bike packing, or even paddling space and or weight is always the issue and making sure that you have the energy that you need to complete your adventure is obviously super important as well. You sure don't want to bunk out or hit a wall before you've gotten to the end point of the day. And like I said, it's the conundrum. Kit: (01:01) How do we balance weight, space, and fuel? And by fuel I mean food fuel. So I've asked one of my hiking buddies, Lucy, who knows all about this stuff to join us on the program today. Our guest today is Lucy Hayhurst. Lucy studied nutrition and dietetics at the University of Dayton and completed her dietetic internship at West Virginia University hospitals. After becoming a registered dietician, she moved to Durham, North Carolina and started well balanced nutrition with her. Over 10 years of Practicing Nutrition and Wellness coaching, Lucy offers a unique perspective. Come to the table as an expert in behavior change. She helps take what you'd know and turn it into lifestyle habits. Lucy combines her enthusiasm for fitness and playing in nature with her love for nutritious food and the result is a fun, interactive adventure for her clients. Lucy can light up a room and inspire a crowd in addition to individual counseling. Kit: (01:55) She's also an author and motivational speaker before it gets started to all the information that we talk about today. Plus a lot more of more technical information is on the website, adventure, travel show, podcasts. Slash. Nutrition. I've got tons more tips, ideas, and some recipes and link to even more recipes so you keep your energy levels up high for your entire adventure. So let's get started with Lucy. So Lucy, I first met you when we were at us. In the same hiking club in Raleigh and we've actually been backpacking together. How did you get involved in all this outdoor adventure activity? Lucy: (02:33) Well, I started playing outside when I moved to North Carolina back in 2009 and I didn't have a job. I didn't have a lot of money and I realized that you could hike all day and it costs almost nothing. So that really got me into the woods. And then it was when I met my ex who introduced me to a lot more adventure and we met Whitewater rafting in West Virginia. Kit: (02:59) That's another thing I love to do as well. In fact, I'm going to be going on my very first long rafting trip for a whole week out in Idaho this summer. So I'm really excited about that. Lucy: (03:07) I'm excited to hear about it. Kit: (03:10) Today we're going to be talking about your nutritionist and we're going to talk about getting healthier or doing healthy things for our bodies home, doing some of these adventures. Cause a lot of times we tend to just grab the convenient junk food, whatnot. But you've got some better ideas for us and about things that we should be doing both before our adventure in preparation. And also once you're on the trip. So how important is it for us to have the proper nutrition before we go on some of these adventures? Lucy: (03:37) You know, I love this question because part of the reason I go backpacking is so that I can eat candy, corn and peanuts, which is one of my favorite trail mixes and nobody would really qualify that as a health food. But as you know, and everybody out there that's done those kinds of backpacking adventures, there's a lot of calories that you're burning. And so every now and then having a little bit of what we call fluff, like candy corn is okay, it's not going to kill us. But what I talk about with people, especially those getting ready for something that's rigorous, whether it's a race or an a travel adventure that we really want to focus on fueling our bodies. So do you think about this concept of food is fuel or fluff? Oftentimes people are labeling food is good and bad and I can tell you that doesn't really help them out much because then they just get in this spiral of, oh I was bad today. And they just continue to make less healthy choices versus saying, oh, I've eaten good fuel for my body and now I've got a little bit of room left. Let me enjoy a little, you know, potato chips or a few candy corns or whatever it might be. Kit: (05:00) When we go out there, one of the considerations for a lot of us, whether we're backpacking or bike packing or even rafting for that matter, weight is an issue and a lot of the junky food tends to be lighter weight. What's she, what kinds of things should we be thinking about? Cause we've got to balance the weight with the nutrition with also taste. And so how, what's our thought process or how do we go about figuring out what we want to do? Lucy: (05:24) So I think that this is a bit of two conversations, so I'm curious, should we start with the before the trip or do you want to dive right in? Sure. Okay. Kit: (05:35) But before the trip, how do we get our bodies prepared as far as nutrition goes Lucy: (05:40) when we're preparing. Then anytime that you're in that kind of training mode, I got to listen to the podcast where you were talking with the trainer and I really enjoyed that because it's that reminder that we probably shouldn't expect our bodies to just go out and hike up the mountain without having any preparation, especially if you're carrying weight and that's where training your body as well as training what fuel you're going to use while you're out there. Super important. So before you go, it's really a matter of finding the right foods in balance. We had talked a little bit before about should I eat three meals a day or should I snack throughout the day and on this journey, whatever adventure you're going on. But specifically on the journey of life, your body is unique to you and the best part of the journey is learning what is gonna work best for you. Lucy: (06:38) So there might be a little bit of playing around with that as you get ready for your travel adventure and knowing that. All right, let me put this to the test because if you go out into the wilderness and you've packed nothing but rice and beans, but you haven't really eaten any rice and beans, but you are deciding like, oh, I'm going to be healthy while I'm in the woods, you might end up really regretting that with some gastrointestinal pain or just other yuckiness. My, uh, my husband was in his sleeping bag after a particularly fibrous dinner and he had bought one of those, what are they called? The sock things that you can fit your whole body into. It's like a giant sheet. Anyway, he was worried that that little bag was going to become a, a giant poop. So gotta be careful, try out your fruits. Kit: (07:37) Is there a different mix of, of the fats, proteins, and carbs that we need to think about before because assuming that we're going to be extending more energy than normal, is there a certain components we have to think about ahead of time? And then let's talk too about once we're out there too. So still in the pre training mode are the things that we need to get our body used to because it could be using more of that once we're out on our activity. Lucy: (08:01) Yes. Yeah, and it's going to be activity dependent, but a lot of times, especially this day and age where carbs are still considered evil, then people really underestimate how many carbohydrates they are burning out on the trails. So being sure that you do have sufficient what we call the simple as well as complex carbs Kit: (08:25) and tell us the difference between complex and simple carbs. Lucy: (08:28) So the difference between simple and complex is sometimes easy, right? If you look at a piece of white bread, most of the buns you find at restaurants, so on and so forth, that's going to be simple carbs. That means they go into your body, they break down pretty quickly, turn to sugar, which turns to energy. So these are great when you're doing those activities and your body just needs that energy available. But we also want to make sure that we combine include plenty of complex carbs. So that's going to be the more brown foods, right? So the whole grains, the sweet potatoes, Keene, Wa, butternut squash, so on and so forth. Kit: (09:12) So on our adventure, there's a place for both of them. Exactly when we're out there, we actually want some of the, when I call the white things versus the brown things. I spend my days at home trying to avoid all those white things. Ha ha ha. That's half the reason I go backpacking. So it looks like we want the whites or the simple carbs when we're about to do a major center, something that we need a lot of energy quickly. How about fats? Fats, ah, Lucy: (09:41) let's say it together. Fat is our friend. Ooh, I like the way you speak. Tell us why that is our friend. That is, first of all, it's what makes the food tasty so we can't forget that fat is really important for helping us absorb the vitamins and minerals that are fat soluble and it's also there to keep us full longer. If you think about those little Debbies, then those are pretty high in sugar. I don't know about the fat content or protein for that matter, but the fat and protein are especially important for keeping us going longer. Kit: (10:23) Does it make a difference which kind of fat? Lucy: (10:25) Oh yeah, but that would be a whole episode all in itself. Kit: (10:29) How about a couple of rules of thumb instead? Lucy: (10:32) Yes. If you look at it and you can identify the original source of where it came from, then that's a pretty good indicator that it's a good fat. So you think about your nuts that you put in your trail mix. That's great. Think about the coconut oil that you use to make the granola. That's wonderful. Thinking about Avocados, not that everybody's bringing those on the trail, but I did do that in my last backpacking adventure. Thinking about nut butters and these kinds of healthy fats are going to be better fuel. Kit: (11:06) At the end of the interview I'll have some more details about what she's talking about here as well as on the website, adventure, travel show, podcast. Slash. Nutrition. What about meat? Fats like beef, fat. That's something we can pronounce and we can see where it came from. Lucy: (11:21) Yes. Uh, coming from my perspective, I always encourage more happy, healthy meat. So things that are grass fed, organically raised, those are going to be a better option. Kit: (11:33) And then how about salt when we're out there too, cause we're perspiring so much. Is Salt something we need to be paying attention to? Lucy: (11:41) Certainly. And it's going to be there whether or not you try to add it. For most of us, so anytime you're eating anything out of a crinkly, there's typically going to be sodium included. When this becomes really important for our profuse of sweaters, especially those that have discovered that white rain around their hats or maybe around their t-shirts. If you're seeing that, that's a pretty good indicator that you are a salty sweater, which means it might be a little extra important for you to intentionally add salt, whether that's doing the salt tabs for people that are really into more of the endurance longterm kind of activities. Those might come in and, or I'm a big advocate of hot sauce because it's tasty and salty. Kit: (12:37) I love that tip. That's a great tip. Well, it appears I'm one of those salty sweaters. I just thought that was dirt or sunscreen or something. I never really made that connection. I didn't know I was leeching out my salt at those electrolytes. So it's not just about the salt. Lucy: (12:52) People put a lot of emphasis on salt, but we can't forget magnesium, potassium and the other electrolytes are also important to Kit: (13:00) replenish. If I see those rings on my hat, does that tell me that I'm not drinking enough water? No. It means you're drinking lots of it Lucy: (13:07) water and your body's getting rid of it as it sees fit, um, to try and keep you cool. And some people found that there's a lot of benefit. They carry the little powders of different electrolyte enhancers. So you know, especially when you're on the trails, sometimes just drinking water all day it gets old. And at the end of the day having one of these little powders, there's one in particular called scratch that I've heard great things about. Uh, I haven't tried it yet myself, but it's a good electrolyte blend and it's a little flavorful. Kit: (13:41) All right, I'll have to put a link to that in the show notes and on the website. So let's talk about things that we can, again, we get back to, it's hard to, to carry things on the trail or in a backpack of, or our bike pack. We're bike packing. What are some nice healthy options of things that actually tastes good that we could be bringing with us? Such good questions. I subscribe to that Lucy: (14:04) the lighter is better and so I do partake in those frozen meals. Actually, I was on a backpacking trip with a friend of mine who knew I was a dietician and he was excited and he didn't say this ahead of time, but he was looking forward to traveling with the dietician to see what I ate, assuming it was going to just be the pinnacle of health and wellness, so he was really horrified when I pulled out my most favorite meal, which is the mountain house beef stroganoff to have for dinner that night because I don't subscribe to needing to focus on your health on the trail. That's something that you need to be doing off the trail, but there are ways to be healthier while you're out there without adding a lot of, for instance, I really love those little pouches of the fruit and Veggie blends just to give me a little like wink and a nudge at some nutrition. That's the colorful kinds of nutrition. They're not always the most lightweight, so some people also get into the freeze dried fruits or vegetables. I did start making some of my own backpacking meals, so I was able to sneak in a little bit more veggies with some freeze dried carrots, potatoes, celery and so forth. Kit: (15:24) One thing I learned in my research is that the freeze dried food is better for you than the dehydrated food because you lose some of the nutrients when they dehydrate it. But the freeze dried not so much and it has a significantly longer shelf life, sometimes up to 30 years. So what's the deal on when to eat? When we're out on our adventures? Do we graze all day long? Do we eat our three square or what? What's, what's the latest on that Lucy: (15:52) yet? That's a good question. I always encourage that you're doing a little bit throughout. So if you're doing something that's requiring a lot of energy, um, hiking, biking, paddling, whatever, then anything over an hour we recommend that you refuel with some sort of, typically some carb and depending how long you're going, maybe carb as well as protein. So I take marathon runners as an example because they've needed to get good at this running three and four hours where you don't necessarily feel hungry. I eat breakfast and I can go hike, you know, two or three hours and not really feel hunger, but my brain starts obsessive thinking of food and that's when I know, oh I guess my body's trying to tell me that I need a little bit more energy right now even though my mind is like I just ate. It's been two hours. Kit: (16:51) So are we talking a handful of trail mix or talk to us a little bit about portion size. Lucy: (16:56) That depends on your size. I'm not a particularly big person, so I'll have one fig Newton and that'll be fine for another hour. But for somebody that's bigger and or carrying more weight on their back or otherwise they are going to need more energy. So it's very, very body dependent. There's not a super secret magical formula. It's a matter of tuning in and listening to your body and if at the end of the day you feel like a bottomless pit and you just can't get full, then that's a good indicator that you didn't eat enough and you need to do a little bit more feeling throughout the day tomorrow. Kit: (17:33) Now let's talk about energy bars. I hear they're good. I hear they're bad to hear. They're full of sugar. I hear they're just wasted calories. So do you have any opinions on those? Lucy: (17:42) I do. So I was at a convenience store tour with a client of mine and we were at all the foods that they offer at at a normal gas station store and we got to the Plethora of energy bars and he's not going on the trail. He's good about to get on an airplane. So he's like, which one is the best one? And I had to be honest with him for that scenario, when you have apples and are boiled eggs or yogurt without a lot of sugar or nuts, when you have other whole food options, I'm always going to encourage you to eat that first. When you're eating a bar, they've taken whole foods and processed them into this, what they call a health food. But if that was really true, then that wouldn't be able to live on the shelf in your cupboard for a months or years at a time. So when you're on the trail, I think that there's plenty of good options because sometimes you just need energy. So it's not about being perfect picture of health, it's about being fueled for what you're doing. So I would say, yeah, I'd rather you choose an rx bar versus a snickers bar because our x bar is going to be a little bit better balanced energy. Kit: (19:06) So if we're trying to be healthy and we're looking at these bars, are there any rules of thumb or any advice of this many grams of sugar is good or bad or tall? Talk a little bit about that. Lucy: (19:17) Yes. Yes. When health is your, would your motivator, I mean, what's you're going for? I skipped the nutrition facts numbers because it's not, it's a jumble and I'd rather you just go straight to the ingredients list. Um, I mentioned the rx bars because when you go the ingredients list, you'll see it's nuts. It's egg whites that they've powdered and it's dates or some other dried fruit. It's whole real foods. I don't know. I don't necessarily want to pick on the ones that I don't agree with. I just always encourage people to look at the ingredients and if you can recognize most or all of the ingredients is things that you would put on your very own grocery shopping list. Then choose that. If you can't pronounce it and you don't know where you would find Gargamel and so lasts of then then that might be something that you can put back on the shelf Kit: (20:16) at home. I try not to buy things that come in boxes or bags and kind of use as my rule of thumb to keep away from the processed foods array. The way I understand it, they're removing a lot of the nutrients when they do a lot of the processing. So can you talk to us a little bit about what is processed food? Lucy: (20:34) Well, if you are going to the grocery store, 99% of the food that you're buying is processed, processed simply means that somebody else came in and has prepared this for you in some way. So if you look at, we'll go to the produce section, kind of visualize that. You can see there's whole carrots and then you can see those carrot chips or those baby carrots. Those baby carrots are processed. That's just big carrots. What they've dwindled down into a little baby size, bite size. So, and that's in a bag, but then you get into the what's actually in this. So we're now in the aisle and we're talking about Ritz crackers. Then that's where it's like, okay, that's processed in a way that there's, when you look at that label, it's enriched wheat flour and that word enriched. That means that they've taken the whole grain, they've stripped all the nutrients out of it, and now it's just white flour. Kit: (21:41) And so if I understand it right, I think they strip out the, the whole grains are what we consider the goodness of it. And then they quote unquote enrich it by adding some vitamins back to it. Lucy: (21:51) Exactly. Yeah. It's a, it's very much like that, so it's back to the ingredients list. When you look at that bag of baby carrots, it still just says carrots. So even though it's processed, it's still a good choice. But then if you look at the laundry list of ingredients on cereals and other types of foods and bags and boxes, then that's when we know it's probably better just to make a different choice. Kit: (22:17) So they trick us with the word enrich, trying to make us think that that's good for us. They also trick us with the word natural, which I believe does even have an official definition, so you can pretty much use that however you'd like. Any other words? They trick us with multi-grain. Oh boy. Tell us why. Lucy: (22:37) Yeah, often they, they want you to think that you're being virtuous because it's multi-grain, but that doesn't actually mean that it's a whole grain. It just means they put a bunch of different grains into that particular food. Kit: (22:51) Okay. I've fallen for that one. Any other ones you can think of that's a good one. Lucy: (22:56) Cholesterol three your pretzels were always cholesterol free. They just decided to put that on the label because they can, Kit: (23:05) I often see packages touted gluten free. Gluten free. Exactly. They'll put on packages of things that never had any wheat in them. Exactly. But they're just trying to sell something and yeah, they're riding a trend. Lucy: (23:20) [inaudible] and so, well we see that a lot with protein. Now. I've been hearing a lot of my clients are choosing special k protein blend and so I finally looked at the label this week and they add soy protein isolate, which I'm not saying that's not real food, but it's not necessarily something you're going to put on your grocery list again. So I'd rather you eat a hard boiled egg with a bowl of oatmeal or something. Whole grain, like whole grain toast from bakery. Okay. Kit: (23:56) What other advice would you give us? Uh, things that we can think about or bring with us when we go out on the trailer or bike pack or wherever it is that we're going. Lucy: (24:04) The travel food is, I've just learned about a really wonderful resource. I'm going to have to send it to you cause I can't think off the top of my head what it's called. But for the cyclists of the world, there's something called these rice balls or, or rice bars and you can make them sweet or savory. So for people that are just feeling a little inundated with all this sweet that's jammed packed on the, you know, in the bars and so on. These rice balls basically make rice and then you put a layer of maybe it's barbecue meat or maybe it's um, cinnamon apples or blueberries or whatever. And then you do another layer of rice and you make it so that at this own little energy bar that you can wrap up in foil and it's really easy to, to eat while you're out on, out on the trails. Kit: (25:02) Are these rice balls good for multiple days or is it something you have to eat within a couple of hours? Lucy: (25:08) Oh, it's good for multi multiple days. Well, it's not something I'd keep on me for over a week, but if you're out there for a couple days and then it's going to be all right. Kit: (25:21) Okay. Yeah. I'm always afraid about things going bad on me. So a big fan of I'm at, one thing I like to do is take a tortilla and spreads and peanut butter on it and put some raisins on it and roll that up. And that's delicious. That's a great one. I don't, I only eat it when I'm camping, but it's actually pretty darn good. Any other favorite things that you'd like to bring on that would fall in the nutritious side that are also good to bring out? Lucy: (25:46) Yeah, I really like the Sandwich thins. Uh, so, um, do a veggie patty, like some sort of, um, Morningstar, whatever vegetable tatty that I can heat up and then toast the sandwich then. And I'll do that and I'll bring those little packets of mayonnaise and mustard with me and I'll have a delicious little Kit: (26:09) fake hamburger on the trail. Any of the things that you want to tell us about things that we should be thinking about for nutrition and keeping ourselves in balance while we're getting ready to do our adventures or out on our adventures. I always just Lucy: (26:23) remind people that your body's telling you things all day, every day and the key is learning to tune in, so on this journey, a whatever next adventure you're preparing for while you're training or while you're getting ready for the adventure. Start Tuning in and noticing when can I tell I'm hungry after an adventure and how do I know when I've had enough and what are the best snacks that are going to not give me, you know, blow to, or yeah, I can just give me enough fuel to keep going. Kit: (27:00) That sounds like something we should be doing everyday anyway, just to see how the different foods make our bodies feel. Yes, ma'am. Just being a little bit more mindful afterwards. We know we're supposed to be mindful while we're eating, but not always doing that, but I probably don't think afterwards, Oh, do you know they didn't really sit that well with me or that did great and feel wonderful. Lucy: (27:19) [inaudible] exactly. Kit: (27:22) So good. Now listen, I understand that you finally wrote the book. You told me you were going to write it. Why don't you tell me about that? Lucy: (27:28) I did a, well it's called T. G. I m, start happy, stay healthy and it's a workbook that you could, it's designed to be a once one entry per week, so 52 weeks, but you could also read the book front to back in about an hour if you want to. And it's the idea that when we start with the idea of loving this journey of being our happy, happiest, and healthiest selves, start happy, stay healthy. If you come to it with the approach of I'm going to learn to enjoy this journey, then it goes a lot better than when we're punishing ourselves and dieting and restricting. And so the, each of the entries just offers a different tip and tool of how to treat yourself well on the journey of life. Kit: (28:25) Can you share one of the tips that are in the book? Lucy: (28:27) Certainly. All right, so one of my favorite entries for this upcoming travels spring in summer and fall season, it's staying well balanced through summer vacations and I provide five different tips for how to enjoy your vacation without feeling like he's completely run yourself off the road of healthy and happy and it includes certain tips. Obviously if it's a travel adventure then you're already going to be physically active hopefully. And then it just talks about being careful about what we're drinking, how many calories we're taking in that way. Also just the importance of fiber because you like to keep things moving while you're traveling. At least I know I do. Kit: (29:14) Well, I'll put a link to in the show notes for your book. Um, is that available everywhere or how, how do people find it? Lucy: (29:21) It's on Amazon. Kit: (29:24) Don Amazon. Okay. I'll put an Amazon link into the show notes and on the website and then also tell us a little bit about your, your coaching and your well balanced nutrition business. Lucy: (29:35) I be going to, well balanced nutrition. It's, you know, how you go on Google or any website and find, there's just 14,000 different new diet and lifestyle recommendations, right? It's like, I don't know, should I be Vegan? Should I go Paleo? Should I whatever it, there's so many options and it's very confusing. And what we do as nutrition wellness experts is we take a lot of what you already know and help you make it become your lifestyle. So we're talking about behavior change and longterm goal achievement instead of those chronic fad diets. Kit: (30:22) Can you share a success story about one of your clients? Lucy: (30:25) Oh my gosh, yes, please. I have one that she was, or she is an avid hiker, loves to go stomp in the woods as she says. And she broke her ankle unfortunately while hiking twice, um, in the last two years. And the last one really got her down and out. I'm needless to say, she, when she was out of commission from hiking, she got a little depressed. So we've met in November of last year in 2018 and she recognized that there was some emotional eating going on in the evenings. So that was really the first thing that we tackled. And she developed some other tools and coping mechanisms where she was no longer relying on the food at night. And then in January she got some blood results from the doctor that she did not like. So she was very motivated to address some of her other eating habits. And together with, we have an online tracking tool, so of course an app where we're able to stay in touch with our clients in between appointments and we are able to watch what you're eating, give some guidance and feedback to help you make those really healthy, well balanced choices. And she's now lost about 27 pounds and is hiking at least three or four miles almost every day. Kit: (31:44) Hey, good for her. Now Lucy, can people do this online with you or do they have to live in the triangle area of North Carolina? Lucy: (31:51) It depends, um, on your preference. We do have virtual sessions available. Insurance covers our services if you're in the area, we're in south Durham. Kit: (32:04) Oh good, good. I'll make sure I'll put links to everything in the show notes in the website so that people will be able to find you and Lucy, it's been great talking to you. It's been so long. I'm so glad to hear about you and your business and I remember you saying on our backpacking trip that you wanted to do that new, you went out and you actually did it and you've been doing it now for over five years. It's wonderful. Lucy: (32:24) Yes. Thank you so much. You were very helpful on the journey and I'm so grateful. Kit: (32:30) I've got a few more of the nitty gritty details of some of the things that we need to think about when we're thinking about our nutrition both before and during our one, whatever our adventure might be. And I'll put all these in, like I said, the show notes and the website. However, I will also have a downloadable pdf that you can either download or it'll come automatically with the monthly newsletter next month that'll have some of the key figures that you need to know to kind of get an idea of what you need to do and bring. So it'll all be in on a single piece of paper. Make it nice and easy. So anyway, a couple of takeaways and a couple of things that we need to add to Lucy's and my discussion. I love how she said think of food as fuel or fluff. Kit: (33:10) And the important takeaway that we've got from today is obviously we all know we should be fueling our body with nutritious foods. However, the fluff comes in handy. Let's say you're about to do a major ascent or there's something you're about to do. This going to take a whole lot of energy. The fluff is what's going to get you that energy quickly because it breaks down so quickly. So that's when you want Lucy's case, the candy corn or for me a snickers bar or something like that, that if you just need that little burst of energy, that's when you use the simple carbohydrates, the complex carbs, keep your energy at a good level all the time. And talking about energy, where does it come from? There's an important thing I learned about [inaudible], I'm probably saying this wrong glycogen and this is your stored energy, your stored carbs. The body can only store so much about 500 calories worth in your liver and anywhere, depending on your body, 500 to 2000 calories in your muscles. So these are our gas tanks. We have to keep refilling. If you're doing something with high intensity, you've got to keep that constantly replenished. So that means adding 15 to 30 grams early to top of our tanks. Kit: (34:22) And also I read too that if you're, let's say you're doing a long distance hike or you're really, really pushing yourself on whatever it is that you're doing. And most examples that I read about it would be like long distance hiking where every day you're getting up in, you're hiking, you know, anywhere between 10 and 30 miles a day, whatever the case may be, they encourage you to eat your last meal like 30 minutes before bed so that during the night your body stores that glycogen so you're ready to go the next day. When you don't get the proper nutrients and you don't replenish your body, not only are you losing the energy stores, but you might also be missing out on some of the micronutrients and some of the negative effects of those. If you're not getting enough vitamin C, that's going to depress your immunity and also can cause some damage to connective tissues, which is super important. Kit: (35:08) When you're doing something with your muscles in your body, that's really important, so you've got to figure out some way to add some vitamin C to your date. A lack of vitamin C can also exacerbate some aching swollen muscles. If you're not getting enough vitamin B's at the B vitamins, that's going to really affect your energy and your and your metabolism. I'll also affect your nervous system. If you don't get enough vitamin B, you might become sluggish, you might make some bad decisions, your brain's going to be a little foggy, so super important as well, and you need to try to get some calcium in there somewhere too because that can create some cramps. And so when did you get all cramped up in hiking, you're probably not getting enough calcium, particularly for women. You want to make sure you're getting enough iron and a good source of that could be some dehydrated Kale. He probably didn't get a taste it just mix it in with something else. Kit: (35:58) Your backpack food tends to be a little bit bland, so I'd also recommend bringing an assortment of spices, particularly the hotter ones, like the red pepper flakes, chili powders, et cetera. Lucy recommends bringing the hot sauce. It a lot of times you get the little condiments from the packets and I also like to say the condiments like the Manet's a mustard, they're great for travel. Changing up your spices can make the same foods taste different every night, which will help a little bit. To give you a little bit of variety at little pack weight, I want to talk about different meal ideas like breakfast, one of my favorites, and it's kind of counterintuitive, but I like something warm in the morning, particularly if it's a little chilly in the morning. I liked instant mashed potatoes with beef jerky chunks in it. It gave me some protein, it was warm, it was filling, it was easy and fast. So that's one of my go to favorites of course, oatmeal. And if you could add some nuts in that and some dried fruits that makes that quite tasted, it brings some cinnamon. Kit: (36:58) One of my favorite lunch things, as I mentioned earlier, is taken a whole wheat Tortilla, slathering it with peanut butter and then sprinkling with raisins and rolling that up. It lasts a long time. So you can carry that with you for several days, not worrying about refrigeration and it's tasty. Filling full of good proteins and good snacks that you can bring nuts. Of course they're, they're calorie dense and they've got the good fats in them so, and the protein. So that's, that's an excellent source. Also hard cheeses, you can bring hard cheeses and they will last a few days for that. Refrigeration, none in the soft ones, but the hard ones. Also hard meats like Salamis and pepperoni's don't need refrigeration as well. That's great to get some extra protein dinners. The packaged meals were usually my go to and now after what I've learned from Lucy and in my research, I'm going to stick just with the freeze dried versus the dehydrated because of the better quality of the food with it. Kit: (37:54) The nutrients are preserved better. Yes, but they're expensive if you don't want to spend the money. I met a man when I was hiking up in my hiking robe up in Raleigh and he said he had to deal with his backpacking buddy. He had to carry the kitchen and the food in exchange for the buddy making and preparing all the food and the buddy used a cookbook called lip smack and backpacking and he said everything that the guy made was delicious. So I'll put a link to that too on the website and in the show notes. [inaudible] Kit: (38:26) good source of carbs are those little honey sesame sticks you can buy and I like these little upbrand sticks that I get over it and like the near the vegetable area I throw myself, but they're also greatest snacking foods. It's a good idea to bring a little bit of a small container of olive oil or canola oil to add a little bit more fat to your dinners as well. Some of my favorite protein sources are of course beef jerky, beans, nuts, seeds, powdered milk, powdered soy protein plus you get some calcium with these last two. I like the tuna that comes in the foil packets and then if you get some of the oil, if you get it in the olive oil, that's going to add a little bit more fat to it. And again, like I used those little convenient store Manet's is that don't need to be refrigerated so I can make like a tuna salad in the pouch and speak in the pouches. Kit: (39:15) Please do practice the leave. No trace. You pack out all of your garbage. That includes your toilet paper. I usually keep a big Ziploc bag and I labeled trash. I don't get it confused and everything goes in there and don't forget to drink plenty of water. Hydration is super important. If possible, use one of those bladders that so that you have constant access. You'll tend to drink more if it's there and you don't have to drop your pack or get somebody to grab your bottle for you. You can learn more about your water options and what a treatment options. On episode number three of this podcast, the adventure travel show podcast, I'll also put a link to that in the show notes, and a good rule of thumb is if your urine is yellow, you're not drinking enough. It should be close to clear and that tells you that your body is getting proper hydration and consider bringing some of the electrolytes because the sports drinks I keep reading are not really the best thing for you. Kit: (40:12) Some of them have too much sugar, some of them have too much salt. If you want to make your own mix, you can add some salt to water. When you're sweating and you're working out, you lose about a gram of salt per liter and when looking at the labels, as Lucy suggested, anything that says Syrup means sugar. The only good syrup's truly are the honey and maple syrup and try to get your sugar more from the fruits than from the processed sugars that they add in there. Remember, you don't have to memorize all this stuff. I've got it on the website for you. Adventure travel show, podcast.com/nutrition and there's also going to be a recipe for ace, a snickers trifle and links to some other recipes as well that you might find interesting. I hope you learned a lot from today's program and many thanks to Lucy for coming on the show to help us out. Be sure to subscribe if you haven't done so already, it's free and available on all podcast apps, including now Pandora, which we were selected to join. If you've enjoyed today's program, please share it with your adventurous friends. Word of mouth is the number one way that podcasts are found, and so you are instrumental in building this podcast. Thanks. I sure do appreciate it. I also really appreciate that you give your time to listen to this podcast. Thanks. Until next time, this is kit parks adventure on. Nutrition for Outdoor Adventures by Kit Parks is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 4.0 International License. Based on a work at http://adventuretravelshowpodcast.com/outdoor-adventure-nutrition/. Permissions beyond the scope of this license may be available at https://activetraveladventures.com/contact-us/.

Hiking in Bear Country NOTE:  The Adventure Travel Show podcast is part of the Active Travel Adventures podcast community. Learn how to hike safely in bear country plus how to determine whether a bear is a black bear or a brown (grizzly), and what to do if attacked by a bear.  You'll learn about proper food storage and how to hang a bear bag, and why bear spray is best.   Former NPS biologist, Tom Smith, stated in a wonderful Backpacker mag article:  “Don’t go into bear country without a deterrent.  I mean ALL bear country, density be ‘insert the D-word’.  You can’t outrun them, you can’t outwit them, you can’t out anything them.  You need a way to say to the bear, “This far, no farther”.   You’ll Learn   How to tell the difference between a black and a brown (or grizzly) bear and how to react What to do if you are attacked by a bear Grizzly ‘Bluff Charges” - what to do Best Practices for hiking safely in bear country Why bear spray is the best deterrent How to store your food How to hang a bear bag (Scroll down for a detailed recap)   Webpage for more details, diagrams of how to tell the difference between a black bear and a grizzly bear (Brown bear): http://adventuretravelshowpodcast.com/safety-tips-for-hiking-in-bear-country/ Links mentioned in this episode: Backpacker magazine article  9 Bear Safety Tips Active Travel Adventures podcast and website     Available wherever you listen to podcasts or directly on the website     Bear country episodes:  Glacier National Park, Pisgah National Forest, Banff (Canada) Center For WIldlife Information - (the cool bear graphic) TRAINING:  Make sure you’ve got your body ready for your adventure!  You can get a FREE Training Consultation to see if Fit For Trips, an affiliate of ATA, is a good fit for you.  They offer affordable custom training regimens to make help ensure success of your trip.   Click for a FREE Consult plus an ATA Discount   TRAVEL INSURANCE:  Be careful as not all travel insurance companies covers adventure activities!  I use World Nomads. They are affordable and cover just about any adventure you can dream up!  Plus you can get coverage for lost bags and delays, emergency medical and evacuations. Use this link to get a quick quote and at no additional cost to you, you help support ATA - thanks!   Welcome to Adventure Travel Show  podcast, I’m your host Kit Parks. On this podcast we dig into the skills and tips you need to maximize your enjoyment of your outdoor adventures.   Today we are talking about hiking in bear country.  You’ll learn how to identify whether you’re looking at a black or a grizzly bear - and hint - it’s not about color, you’ll learn how to minimize any unpleasant encounters with bears and what to do in an unfortunate bear attack.   Bear attacks are very rare, and rarer still if you are hiking in a group of three or more, so this show is not meant to scare you.  In fact bear encounters are a treat!   Let’s first learn how to determine what kind of bear you are looking at as the response is different: Black bear Most common Range is from Canada down in to some parts of central Mexico, and in the lower 48, in both the east and the west Usually just black, but can be blue-black, brown, cinnamon or even white Taller ears Straight roman face profile Smaller claws good for digging in logs looking for bugs, or for climbing trees   Grizzly Bear (sometimes called a brown bear) Can’t determine by the color.  Colors range from honey to Black.  Often brown. Instead look for the distinct humped shoulders and a head that looks like someone took a bowl and scooped out a part of the lower snout. Small rounded ears - I find these hard to distinguish , usually furrier Range from Alaska, Canada, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho and possibly in the Cascades of Washington, and in Russia Larger claws - can be as large as a finger in mature adult   How to Determine what kind of bear from tracks:If you see tracks, you can tell by drawing an imaginary line horizontally across the top of the paw pad.  If the baby toe is below the line, it’s a black bear. Also, black bear paws are more rounded. Grizzly paws pads are more oblong, so the line is predominantly below the toe imprints.     Bears sense of smell: Bear brains are a third of the size of humans, but their olfactory is 5x larger.  They say that a bear can smell a rotting carcass 20 miles away, and think ‘din din’!   Having a nine inch nose helps, too!  It’s it’s full of A LOT more receptors.   How to Hike Safely in Bear Country   Find out whether and what kind of bears are in your hiking area. Check with rangers about current sightings.  In parks, rangers will close trails that have bear activity - usually berries are ripe, or another popular food is ready for them. Avoid wearing or using scented products.  Think shampoo, toothpaste, lotions, etc. Remember that big nose!  Scents attract bears. Like Dr. Smith advises, bring a deterrent:  Bear Spray. And don’t leave it in your pack.  Put it in a holster on your belt for quick access.  And super important: read the directions before you hit the trail.  If the spray is necessary, you won’t have time.   WHAT IS BEAR SPRAY?   Bear Spray is a pepper spray that is truly effective:  more effective than a gun! Dr. Smith did a study in 2012 and found of the 133 bear encounters using Bear Spray, only three were injured, all mild.  However, of the 269 bear encounters using a gun, there were 17 dead people and a couple hundred dead bears. Bear spray works up to 30’ away but only lasts ten seconds.  If you need to use it, make sure you are NOT spraying upwind, or it’ll go in your eyes.  Aim low so the spray doesn’t go over the bear’s head. The spray works by temporarily burning the eyes.  It does no good to “pre-emptively” spray your tent. That creates a scent that may actually ATTRACT bears! Plus:  if you shoot a grizzly in the lower 48, YOU are required to carry out the carcass.  Good luck strapping him on your backpack: a grizzly can weigh up to 1300 pounds. Black bears don’t exceed 660 lbs. Check with rangers about regulations of the park you are visiting.  For example, Bear Spray is NOT allowed in Yosemite as they only have black bears.  However in some parks, you are required to bring bear spray and if a ranger stops and you don’t have any, it can land you a hefty fine. Don’t hike SOLO.  Rangers recommend at least a group of three.  According to the NPS, 91% of attacks are of groups of 1-2, and most times folks were OFF TRAIL. Therefore, stay on trail and mind posted signs warning of trail closings due to bear activity.  Listen to the rangers. Make noise, such as “Hey Bear”, clap or sing.  The idea is not to startle or surprise a bear. This is especially important as you are coming to a bend where a bear could be around the corner, or in tall grass areas where a bear could be resting unseen.  Forget about “Bear Bells”...sometimes these actually attract curious bears and are no longer recommended. If you aren’t hiking in a park, then use good judgement and avoid berry patches and other bear food favorites.  Pay attention to your surroundings. Don’t bring your dog.  Bears and pets don’t mix well.  If you insist, keep it on a leash. Keep your kids close by and in sight. Bears are most active at night, and early morning and late afternoon, so hike during solid daylight hours is best. Store your food properly!!!  If you are car camping, food should be in a cooler in your car or hung from a tree.  If you are in a park where there are back country lockers - USE THEM! If they have poles or hooks, use them.  If you are on your own, use a Bear Canister, which are pretty effective and often mandatory in parks, but bulky and heavy.  Or get a lightweight, bear bag AND preferably, a OPSACK 100% odor-proof and waterproof plastic bag that goes inside the bear bag.  These you hang from a tree branch. You want to hand you bear bag on a tree at least 100 yards downwind of your campsite.  To hang a bear bag, tie a rock to a rope 50-100’ long. I use parachute cord. Toss the rock over a solid branch 10’ and preferably at least 15’, and then lower rock to the ground.  Remove the rock and tie your food bag to the rope and then pull it up. You want the rope to be at least four feet from the trunk. Remember to put all scented things in your container:  food, food scraps and trash - including strained food particles from your dish water that you add to your trash zip bag, toothpaste, lotions, shampoos, etc.  Some even go so far as to store their stove and kitchen equipment. Clean your pots with minimal soap or just use boiling water to sanitize like I do. When we are careless and a bear tastes and learns to crave human foods, we are often giving that beautiful bear a death sentence. Black bears and grizzly bears are not attracted to menstrual periods.  Polar bears are, though! Whenever possible, cook your meals at least 100 yards downwind from your campsite. If you see a carcass, move out of the area as bears are attracted.  Rangers also request that you report a carcass sighting. Be on the lookout for bear indicators… mud prints, claw marks on trees, upturned logs, rolled over rocks, and bear poop, otherwise known as ‘scat’.   What to do when you see a bear: Most of the time, seeing a bear is a treat!  But keep your distance: recommendations are 75 yds/70 m for a black bear and 100 yards/90m for a grizzly. So just give a wide berth.     Generally bears are afraid of humans and will run away, particularly if you are in an area where bears are hunted.  Your goal is to NOT SURPRISE A BEAR!   How you react if you encounter a bear depends on the kind of bear.  Remember the markers we discussed. To me the shoulder - humped on a grizzly, and the snout, super straight on a black bear, are the easiest markers from a distance.   Most of the times, a bear will simply be checking you out to see if you are a threat or not.  Bears attack for three reasons:  Predatory, territory or protective reasons.   NEVER GET BETWEEN A MAMA BEAR AND HER CUBS!!!  This is the most dangerous situation. If you see cubs, don’t approach them, even if you can’t see the SOW or mother bear.  She is close by. If you see cubs, slowly back away.   If you see a bear, and you are too close, you want to remember three things: Stand your ground.  Running might bring out a predatory response.  FOr this reason, never trail run in bear territory. Get your deterrent ready, ideally bear spray. Slowly wave your hands to look larger, yell “Hey Bear” to let it know you are human, bang pots and pans, throw rocks.  Usually this will do the trick.   Most people fear grizzlies more than black bears, but if you are attacked, it is the black bear that is trying to get you.  A grizzly will more often just do a bluff charge.   If a black bear attacks you, it is being predatory.  Fight back: punch him in the eyes and nose. GRIZZLY BLUFF CHARGE VERSUS GRIZZLY ATTACK   If a grizzly sees you, it is likely to stand up to check you out. Speak calmly and back up slowly.  Don’t appear like a threat.   A grizzly may do a “Bluff Charge”.  When a grizzly is bluffing, it’s ears are UP and it will HUFF and make noise.  As terrifying as it will be, STAND YOUR GROUND.  Usually that’s the end of it, and after the bluff charge you can slowly back up again, and have a cool story to tell your friends.   However, if the grizzly has its ears DOWN, its head LOW and is QUIET, be prepared to spray your bear spray.  You are about to be attacked.     CONTROL YOUR PANIC so you don’t spray too soon.  Wait until the bear is about 30’ away, and then aim LOW so you don’t shoot the spray over his head.  REMEMBER, bear spray is super effective.   If you are ignoring my advice and don’t bring bear spray, then unlike the black bear attack where you fight, with a grizzly, you play dead.  Ideally, you lie face down on the ground with your backpack on, spread your legs, and then place your hands on your head with your elbows out to make it harder to turn you over.  Your pack will get the brunt of it. If you roll up into a cannonball, you’ll probably get one bite before he leaves.   I want to remind you that this is an EXTREMELY RARE situation.   On my two week section hike of the Appalachian Trail with Jane and Gerry, we were really  beat one evening. Generally we started looking for a camping area around 4pm. On this section, we weren’t having any luck finding a suitable place for all three tents and ended up more scattered than normal in a subpar location.   Even though I was pooped, I couldn’t fall asleep right away, and around 11pm, I heard what I thought was Gerry, who was tented closest to me, outside my tent.  I was wondering why she was going to the bathroom so close to my tent instead of nearer to hers. The next morning, when I stepped outside to go to the bathroom, I saw a fresh pile of bear skat that most definitely wasn’t there the day before.  So it turns out that “Gerry” was in fact a black bear (the only kind in NC).   We had followed procedures and our food was stored far away, and was untouched, as were we.  I just got a funny story out of it.   When my friend, Venti and I were in Glacier National Park, we were lucky to have several grizzly sightings.  Mostly from the safety of our car in what they refer to as BEAR JAMS, where folks stop their cars to watch to the distress of the rangers.  But seeing that grizzly emerge from the woods and wander down to the lake is one of my favorite memories! What a delight to see such a magnificent creature in an equally magnificent setting!   Bears aren’t stupid:  they live in some of the most beautiful places on earth!  So go out and enjoy the scenery, but just be bear smart. If you follow these guidelines, and pack along your common sense as well as your gear, you’re going to be fine.   On the Adventure Travel Show website, adventuretravelshowpodcast dot com, you’ll see more info about hiking in bear country, with photos and diagrams.   And like always, I prepare a PDF on all episodes.  You can get them absolutely FREE if you sign up for my monthly email.  Note that I said monthly! I don’t sell your name or spam you - promise!  In this email, you’ll also find other tips and deals not mentioned on the show.   Visit ActiveTravelAdventures.com to subscribe or just shoot me an email at Kit at Active Travel Adventures dot com.  I’d love to hear from you and what you think of this new show! Links mentioned in this episode: Backpacker magazine article  9 Bear Safety Tips Active Travel Adventures podcast and website     Available wherever you listen to podcasts or directly on the website     Bear country episodes:  Glacier National Park, Pisgah National Forest, Banff (Canada) Center For WIldlife Information - (the cool bear graphic) TRAINING:  Make sure you’ve got your body ready for your adventure!  You can get a FREE Training Consultation to see if Fit For Trips, an affiliate of ATA, is a good fit for you.  They offer affordable custom training regimens to make help ensure success of your trip.   Click for a FREE Consult plus an ATA Discount   TRAVEL INSURANCE:  Be careful as not all travel insurance companies covers adventure activities!  I use World Nomads. They are affordable and cover just about any adventure you can dream up!  Plus you can get coverage for lost bags and delays, emergency medical and evacuations. Use this link to get a quick quote and at no additional cost to you, you help support ATA - thanks!                    

How to Choose a Backpacking Portable Water Filtration and Purifier System   Adventure travelers can’t always carry all the water they need to stay hydrated while hiking, biking or paddling.  So you need to carry a way to safely treat water in the wild.   And water is HEAVY!  A gallon weighs over 8 pounds and a liter weighs 1 KG, so you want to carry what you need and maybe a tad bit more, but not much more.   On today’s Adventure Travel Show podcast, we look at the ways to filter and purify water from springs, streams, creeks, rivers and lakes.   It’s all about BALANCE.  There is no perfect water treatment system! Everything is a trade off: Weight Ease of use in the field Ease of cleaning and maintenance Effectiveness Time Money   Types of Water Treatment: Filtration:  a physical barrier prevents most protazoans and bacteria Purification: sterilization that also kills viruses Chemical: chlorine or iodine based Mechanical:  Boil   Water Filtration Methods: Pros/Cons:  Eliminates most protozoans and bacteria.  Ease of use and cleaning, affordable, can treat larger quantities, can be bulky.  For US use, this is generally sufficient. Often requires more than a trickle to fill the untreated bags. Pump and Squeeze Filters:  Require some work on your part, but still easy Gravity:  You must put the untreated bag higher than the fill bag but gravity does all the work Drink Through Filters: Simple, small and lightweight but only treats a small amount of water at a time.  Consider a straw filter as an emergency item in your pack and as a backup for your regular water treatment system.   Water Purification Methods: Pros/Cons:  Effective also against viruses, in addition to protozoans and bacteria.  Best for some overseas locations where disease and/or human/animal waste may be entering the water source.  Expensive. Need to carry extra batteries (weight). Easy to maintain. Small. Often need to pre-filter out any sand, grit or debris (in a pinch use your bandana). UV Light:  You put the light in a glass or water bottle and stir around for the amount of time indicated.     Chemical Water Treatment: Iodine or Chlorine tablets or drops Pros/Cons:  Small, cheap, effective BUT it can take 30 -240 minutes to treat, which obviously is a pain.  Plus especially iodine, has a funny taste most don’t like. NOT recommended for anyone who is pregnant or has thyroid issues.  Does not remove cryptosporidium. Good to keep a couple of tablets in your pack as a backup.   Mechanical Water Treatment: Boiling your water Pros/Cons:  Effective but you must boil ( a ROLLING BOIL!) for one minute and if above 6500’ elevation, for three minutes.  Can leave a metallic taste to the water. You still need to carry fuel, which is heavy (plus a pot and stove to cook it), and worst of all, you need to wait for it to cool down.  OK as a backup, but hard to use in practice if you are on the move.   Back Pack Bladder: I like to use a water bladder because the drinking tube which clips to the front of my backpack encourages me to stay hydrated and I don’t have to remove my pack to get my water bottle or ask someone to get it for me.   If there are many water sources ahead, I will fill the bladder as appropriate (I use a 3L size and will fill it halfway or all the way depending on how reliable water will be), and then either fill one or both of my backpack water bottles as a backup in case I use up all the water in the bladder (since you can’t see the water levels as you drink).   When I get home, I thoroughly CLEAN THE BLADDER!  There are cleaning tablets you can get that you stick in the bladder with warm water and let it rest, then clean and rinse thoroughly.  I let it dry out about a week and then fold it up neatly and store in a gallon zip bag in my freezer until the next use.   Also backflush and otherwise clean your water treatment system according to directions.   FINALLY:  Test your portable backpack water treatment system before you head back into the wild so you don’t have any unpleasant surprises (allowing time for a replacement in case it fails on you!)   If you plan on purchasing a new water treatment system or any adventure gear or tour, please consider using the links on my website.  At no additional cost to you, you will be supporting the show as sometimes I earn a small commission which helps pay for the costs of running this show- thanks!  Kit   Link mentioned on this episode: Active Travel Adventures Bhutan Episode 19:  Bhutan Culture Episode 20:  Bhutan Adventure Active Travel Adventures adventure travel podcast inspiring and empowering you to lead a bigger life through adventure travel   Connect with Host Kit Parks:   Host of Active Travel Adventures podcast and the Adventure Travel Show podcast https://activetraveladventures.com http://adventuretravelshowpodcast.com   Twitter @Kit_Parks https://twitter.com/Kit_Parks   Facebook Group:  Active Travel Adventures https://www.facebook.com/groups/ActiveTravelAdventures/   Instagram:  https://instagram.com/parks.kit/

Wilderness Emergency Backpack and Day Pack Survival Kit   Emergencies can happen while you are in the wilderness.  Improve your odds of getting back home safely and with minimal discomfort by packing this emergency backpack kit.   Unpleasant emergencies can be brought about by: Sudden change in weather Getting injured Getting lost Getting delayed and unexpectedly having to spend the night in the wild Running out of water Before you head out, assess your situation to determine how extensive your emergency kit should be.  There is always a trade off between weight and necessity.   Questions to ask yourself: Am I going solo or with others? Will there be many other people where I am going? Have I told someone where I am going, what time I expect to return and when to sound an alarm if I’m not back? How variable is the weather where I am going?  Are pop up storms possible? Is it possible that the temperatures can be below 50 degrees fahrenheit/10 degrees celsius (even at night and you aren’t planning on spending the night) How rugged and/or remote is the terrain? How well marked is the trail?   Links mentioned in this show: Podcast interview with Dr.Segler about preventing and treating sprained ankles in the wild https://activetraveladventures.com/how-to-prevent-and-treat-a-sprained-ankle-when-hiking-in-the-wilderness/   Connect with Kit Parks: Kit Parks Host of Active Travel Adventures podcast  https://activetraveladventures.com Host of Adventure Travel Show podcast  https://adventuretravelshowpodcast.com   Twitter @Kit_Parks https://twitter.com/Kit_Parks   Facebook Group:  Active Travel Adventures https://www.facebook.com/groups/ActiveTravelAdventures/   Instagram:  https://instagram.com/parks.kit/ Your Basic Survival Kit:   Alcohol wipes Antibiotic ointment Balaclava or wool hat if any chance of cold

What to do if you sprain your ankle while hiking in the wild   The Adventure Travel Show Podcast is a companion podcast to the Active Travel Adventures podcast (ATA).  On ATA, you learn the who, what, where and when of the world’s best adventure travel vacations. However on this podcast, the Adventure Travel Show Podcast, you’ll learn the HOW!   Today we learn what to do if you sprain your ankle while in the wild, how to prevent injury, how to test the strength of your ankles, and what small item should be packed in both your day pack and backpack.  Sprained ankles are one of the most common injuries we have while out in the wild.   Dr. Christopher Segler aka Doc on the Run Say you're out hiking in the middle of nowhere and BAAM!  You turn your ankle! Dr. Segler gives us an amazing interview on what to do if you twist your ankle and think you've sprained it, how to prevent such injuries in the first place, why buying too big of hiking shoes or boots may not be the best idea, he gives us an ankle strengthening exercise, plus offers us a helpful self-test to see if we are at risk of a sprained ankle (see my video below).  Who knew ankles could be so interesting?!!!  In our interview, we never got to the other parts of the body that hikers often injure, so Dr. Segler has agreed to make this a multi-part series!  Subscribe so you don't miss it!   A little about Dr. Segler… Here's a doctor who walks the walk – or I should say runs the run, as he is an athlete himself!  Dr. Segler dedicates his practice to helping athletes prevent and also treat their injuries without losing the conditioning they've worked so hard for making him the perfect doctor to talk to about figuring out what to do when you are out in the wild and you hurt yourself and need to keep going.  See below for a more detailed bio on this amazing doctor.   Links mentioned in this podcast: The original Active Travel Adventures podcast of this interview You can download the worksheet Dr. Segler mentions and see the demonstration videos here as well! Your Backpack Emergency Kit podcast episode: http://adventuretravelpodcastshow.com/emergency/   Here's what we cover: True story about Adam and a sprained ankle while climbing in Yosemite What they should have done How to assess a twisted ankle Why you should keep a compression sock in your day pack or back pack How to assess whether it's ok to use it after you've twisted it The difference between a sprain and a fracture When you should use Vitamin I (ibuprophen) and how much to take.  What are the counter indicators. How to prevent a sprain How you can ‘ice' down your sprained ankle in a creek to reduce and minimize swelling Can your ankle get too swollen for your boot? If you've ever had a sprain, you are at higher risk of future sprains even if it's been years. How to do a stork-like self-test to check the stability and strength of your ankles How to do a quick exercise to build up your ankle strength and stability.   Benefits of a wobble board We talk about the pros and cons of hiking shoes versus boots.  Do we HAVE to buy leather? Compare synthetic to leather.  How to test if a boot is strong enough by trying to twist the sole. Why it's NOT a good idea to buy boots a size too big. If you want to use different inserts, bring them with you when you shop for your new pair.  Make sure your toe bends where the boot bends. Connect with Kit and the Adventure Travel Show Podcast and be sure to also subscribe to the companion Active Travel Adventures podcast where you’ll learn about some of the coolest adventures on the planet!  https://activetraveladventures.com   Twitter @Kit_Parks  https://twitter.com/Kit_Parks Facebook Group: Active Travel Adventures   https://www.facebook.com/groups/ActiveTravelAdventures/ Instagram: https://instagram.com/parks.kit/                           Dr. Segler goes deep in each episode to help athletes heal (Hey! We're Adventurers, doesn't that make us somewhat of an ‘athlete'???) without losing conditioning and without giving up the sport they love!  Check out his podcast episodes by clicking on the box to the left! 3 Minutes to Stronger Ankles When Running on Trails from Dr Christopher Segler on Vimeo. Author of: Runner's Heel Pain: Self-Diagnosis and Self-Treatment, House Calls Startup Manual: How to Run a Low-overhead, High-profit Practice and Get Your Life Back Connect with Dr. Segler on: Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DocOnTheRunSanFranciscoPodiatryHouseCalls/ Twitter https://twitter.com/myrunningdoc Instagram https://www.instagram.com/docontherun Pinterest https://www.pinterest.com/DrChristopherSegler/ Here's Dr. Segler's Book:     Here's the transcript for this episode:Note that the times correspond to the original broadcast on the Active Travel Adventures podcast Kit: 00:00 Picture this you've been climbing all morning. And finally you get the reward. You're at the summit and you have a 360 degree view: panoramic. Absolutely gorgeous. You step back to take a selfie and BOOM you twist your ankle. Oh brother! You are eight miles from town. What on earth do you do? That my friends, is the subject of today's bonus episode on how to treat and prevent sprained ankles. I have got such a treat for you! Who would have thought sprained ankles could be so interesting. This interview had started to be a general first aid wilderness episode but we got so engrossed and it was so interesting that we've decided to make this a series instead. In today's interview the doctor's going to teach us what do we do if we should sprained ankle while we're out in the wild. Kit: 00:44 This is one of the most common mishaps that can happen to us. We'll also learn how to treat it how to tell whether or not we are at risk for a weak or a sprained ankle. He has talked me into adding something to my backpack which is something I very rarely do: I try to be as minimalist as possible. But I learned about a new product today that is new to me in the backpacking world, and it is now going to be part of my day and backpacks in the future. And I also found out that I was fitting my boots improperly. So there's lots of great information here. Like I said, who would have thought sprained ankles could be so interesting? Let's get right to it. Kit: 01:24 Welcome to the Active Travel Adventure's podcast. I'm your host Kit Parks. Our guest today is a foot and ankle specialist who focuses his entire business on athletes and keeping those athletes active even after injury. I thought it would be cool to bring him on because unfortunately, sometimes when you're out in the wilderness and you're miles from the nearest town to medical care, you're going to need to fend for yourself. Not only is our guest a much in demand speaker at medical conferences on running injuries and treatment, he's the author of Runner's Heal Painhas written a chapter in a medical textbook, and has written and presented countless papers. He's not a doctor just in the academic sense that you sometimes find… he's a doctor who actually walks the walk, or I should say runs, because he's an athlete himself. He's completed 15 Ironman tournaments as an Iron Man. Kit: 02:07 If you're not familiar with that term, is it insane endurance event. You start by swimming almost two and a half miles then you bike over a hundred miles. And just for giggles you follow that up with a marathon race of over 26 miles — all without a break. He actually did this once in less than 11 hours. And in 2015 he earned the distinction of Ironman All World Athlete. He's also a rock climber, having climbed multiple multiday big wall climbs, such as Lurking Fear on El Capitan– and that was during a storm. He's an avid adventurer who, with a partner in 1995, had a plane drop the two of them in a remote corner of the Alaskan range where they spent a month trying out a new route on Mt.. Debra and Mt Hess. Yes, I realize he's far more hardcore than we are, or at least most of us. But the important thing is he's a doctor who knows what it's like to be out in the wilderness and left to your own devices. Kit: 02:55 So today I had the honor of introducing you to Dr. Christopher Segler also known as Doc on the Run. Kit: 03:11 Dr. Segler, to begin with what exactly is a sprained ankle? Dr. Segler: 03:14 Sure. So a sprained ankle is is basically where you have a ligament that supports the ankle. In most cases, it's one of the ankles on the outside of your ankle. Sort of away from the midline of the body where you feel this lump of bone on the outside of your ankle. There are three little ligaments over there, and a sprain technically is where you have stretched or a very minor strains where you basically overstretched and have developed tiny little perforations in the collagen and that forms the ligament. The worst kind of sprain is where you completely rupture the ligament and that's a grade three sprain. A grade two sprains where there's a partial little rip that you could actually see at the edge of it. But none of that really matters that much as you can't see it. So you know grading ankle sprains doesn't really help you very much, but it's basically where you are walking along and you step on something, sort of on the arch side of your foot or under your big toe that pushes your foot over so that your foot kind of rolls to the outside and you then stretch and strain those ligaments in a way that they actually rip or tear Dr. Segler: 04:25 And you know that in itself is not such a problem, but when you're on a trip and that happens then it can sort of evolve over a period of hours or days to where it actually gets considerably worse. And once that happens it actually really can disrupt your trip because you can have a very difficult time walking. And it can get progressively worse. A lot of time these things catch people off guard. Kit: 04:48 So if we twister sprained ankle What do we do? Is there anything we can do? Dr. Segler: 04:53 There's always something you can do. So the first thing is to be aware that it can happen right? And and then, I mean, I can share a story about how that can happen and this was a there was a trip where I was actually rock climbing with a friend of mine, and obviously I know to about ankle sprains, right? So I treat them, I lecture to physicians about how to not miss subtle ankle fractures that appear to be ankle sprains but are actually teeny tiny little fractures that are really easily missed. You know I've researched those and when I was in residency I won an award for that, so I go to conferences, and they say I'm an expert on this. So I should know of all people. But a friend of mine, his name is Adam, and we were both rock climbing in Yosemite and we're on a very long route. Dr. Segler: 05:37 It's fairly easy as far as a rock climb goes but it's very very long. So it's definitely an all day rock climb. And we were just sort of starting the day it was super early in the morning and we were a few hundred feet up and Adam was leading. So he was going first and there's this one place where it's pretty easy but it's sort of sloped and he was stepping up from one position to another and he fell and he didn't fall very far… just a couple of feet, but he landed on a sloped surface. And when he did, it rolled his ankle over– sort of classic ankle sprain problem where he just sort of slipped on a sloping surface. And he said he sprained his ankle. Dr. Segler: 06:22 And so he came back down to where I was and I said, “Well how is it?” And he said, “Well I think it's OK. Just give me a second. I think it's fine, let's just continue on.” So we did. Now Adam has, I guess he's kind of a tough guy. So he has a fairly high pain threshold. He wanted to continue. He probably on some level didn't want to wreck our trip because we had driven all the way to Yosemite to go do this climb that day. Dr. Segler: 06:48 And so I think you know half of it was Adam just wanted to continue and not really call any attention to himself, and the other part was that he just thought he could ignore it. So the thing is, when you sprain your ankle… when you roll your ankle like that, the first thing that happens is you get natural endorphins that suddenly, like within a few minutes, dull the pain considerably. So part of it may be that Adam just didn't really recognize how bad it was because he had these natural endorphins that protect us from that discomfort. So if you do that, and you're on the way to the car and you're going home it's no big deal. Dr. Segler: 07:21 But if you're heading up a long climb or you're heading in an isolated area where there's no cell phone reception and you have a long way to go to your next stop, that can be a problem. So I asked him, he said it was OK, I didn't even really check it because he said it was ok, so I thought, “Well OK, this must be fine.” And we continued on. The problem is, there is a point on that rock climb where you're way up and really high up a few hours in and once you sort of make this one traverse you cannot get back down unless you get to the top. It's very very difficult to get off the climb at that point. So we got there, and Adam said he thought it was OK but it was getting kind of sore. Dr. Segler: 08:03 But we continued anyway. Within a couple of hours after that, he was having a lot of difficulty. The ankle really started to swell and it got progressively worse pretty quickly at that point. And that was a real problem because it's a very hot day. We were not really prepared to be there for the entire day. We thought we were going to move quickly and we didn't have enough water. So when it's very very hot, you need water. And it was very very hot. And so we both got severely dehydrated and then the last few sections climb, I remember Adam was moving really slowly and he would stop. I would hear him grunt in pain and he would just sort of stand there on the side of the wall just stopping to like kind of recover before you continue on. Dr. Segler: 08:51 So it got more and more painful as the day went on. That turned into a really serious adventure. So it ended up what was supposed to take us six hours ended up taking us more than 12. And we got down that night were both severely dehydrated and it was not really what we had planned for. And that's the thing, is that this could have been all preventable by a couple of things. First of all, if if we had had any way to do something about the swelling as was starting to happen, it wouldn't have become a problem. If Adam had done some stuff to strengthen his ankles before that, it would not have been a problem. But we didn't do either of those things so he had some ankle instability that put him at risk of this injury. Dr. Segler: 09:31 And then when it actually happened, we didn't really stop to assess it and do something about it right away. And if we had done something as simple as taping his ankle or even having him put a compression sock on, then it would not have swelled and become as painful as it was, and really put us at risk of a more serious problem. We really did have the risk of getting stranded on the wall and it was way after dark when we finally got down. So repelling off a huge rock climb where we're a quarter mile off the ground, in the dark, is not really ideal but that's what we had to do. And so really, just knowing what to do when this happens really can make a big difference at getting you to your next stopping point without your adventure turning into a misadventure. Kit: 10:18 So how do we assess it? We're not a doctor. We don't have you there on the trail with us. What do we do? How do we see if this is just something we can blow off, or do we need to stop and address it right then? Dr. Segler: 10:27 That's a good question. So the first thing is soreness. So if you roll your ankle and it hurts, ten you did something, right? And I have a lot of sort of inherent instability because I had damaged my ankles in a number of ways many years ago. I fully rehabilitated them and I still do lots of active stuff around on trails. I do lots of adventure travel sort things… rock climbing, all kinds of stuff lots of hiking. And I'm not at risk now. But the thing is when you sprain your ankle, first of all it hurts. And so it's really simple: if you feel that lump of bone on the outside of your ankle and you push around and it hurts anywhere around there those are where the ligaments are so the specific location of the ligaments doesn't really matter. Dr. Segler: 11:12 So if you push around there there's a joint capsule that holds all the fluid in your ankle and any portion of that joint capsule will probably be sore if you sprained your ankle. Now the problem is that it starts to swell within a short period of time. And if you can do anything to decrease the swelling, that will make the biggest difference. The problem with Adam was early in the morning he had sprained his ankle. He was trying to ignore it. He wanted to ignore it, and then it just got worse because he didn't do anything about it. Now at that time, realistically, when we were on the wall, I actually had a pair of compression socks — they were in my backpack. Dr. Segler: 11:55 Interestingly, on the way home I had Adam put the compression socks on and he improved considerably, just while we were driving home in the middle of the night. But, if we had just stopped long enough to really consider that, and I said , “Well OK, you sprained your ankle. It's probably going to swell. That's predictable. So why don't you just put on this compression sock?” We probably would not have had much of a problem. So it probably would have gotten a little bit worse but not nearly as bad as it did. Dr. Segler: 12:19 So now yesterday I saw a guy at home who sprained his ankle. And it was two weeks ago: he still has swelling. And so that's all residual swelling from where they had that initial blow up where it was really, really swollen. And you have to prevent that. That's just too much inflammation. And that's what really disrupts people. They get so swollen that it's really painful. It's hard to hike, it's hard to walk, and then it really disrupts your trip. Dr. Segler: 12:42 So initially if you can just tape it or even use compression socks… like a lot of people they go on adventure travel, they are going to some faraway destination, they're taking a plane to get there. And many people will wear compression socks just on the plane as a preventative thing. And if you have those compression socks, they don't weigh very much. They may not be the most comfortable things but if you put it on as soon as your sprain an ankle,your chances of it is not swelling as much are way better. So that's probably the simplest thing. Lots of doctors would argue that you should tape the ankle to support and protect it, but the truth is, is that even if we talk about it right now about how to exactly do that, it's a sort of technique thing, and it's not easy to remember. Most people are not going to carry a roll of athletic tape with them when they go on a hike. Dr. Segler: 13:31 And and it's not realistic, but the compression sock… it's so easy to bring a pair compression socks, and and if you do sprain your ankle and you just put the compression socks, on it will make a huge difference. Kit: 13:44 if you're not familiar with compression socks, I put a link in the show notes at the ActiveTravelAdventurist.com Web site. I know is at least one of these socks going in each of my packs from now on. What a great suggestion! Kit: 13:55 Is there any risk of doing permanent damage by walking, like if Adam had kept going going going, could he have done something permanent? Or as long as you eventually make it back you're OK? Dr. Segler: 14:07 That's a good question. So the short answer is yes, there's always a risk you could do more damage. But, that's only if you really have a fracture. And now fractures do happen. So I will tell you like one of the research studies I did when I was in residency was on this subtle fracture pattern called a lateral process fracture. The specifics of it aren't important, it's just that when I was in med school we were taught that the occurrence of lateral process fractures or how often they actually happen was actually really, really, really rare. And so we were taught that it was 0.86 percent of all ankle injuries involved. One of these little subtle ankle fractures on the outside of your ankle right where it hurts when you have an ankle sprain. Dr. Segler: 14:55 So what I did was, I got it approved through the University Institutional Review Board. We reviewed three years worth of patients that came through the university hospitals and clinics and looked at a huge number of patient. So it was in the end, after we eliminated all the people who didn't qualify, it was 1480 patients. And all we were trying to do is figure out whether or not these things were really that rare because it didn't seem like they were that rare. And sure enough that it occurs and almost 10 percent of all ankle sprains. So basically, you have a one in 10 chance of actually having one of these subtle fractures. Dr. Segler: 15:28 So the thing is if you have a standard ankle sprain it doesn't really hurt that much when you start walking on it. It may hurt a little bit. It gets way worse if you keep walking on it just because it keeps swelling and it gets more and more swollen. The tissue on the inside of the joints sort of swells inward and then that swollen tissue is getting pinched between the bones when you move your foot up and down as you walk. So that's what really happens with an ankle sprain. But if you have one of these subtle fractures or if it's a bad one then it's certainly going to hurt a whole lot more. And if you have that, yes, there is a risk that you could do more damage. So if you're concerned that you have one of those because it is really really painful initially, then there is a risk that you can make it worse by walking on it. Dr. Segler: 16:12 So you don't want to just ignore it. And the biggest mistake we made was that we basically, Adam and I both just more or less ignored it thinking well it will be OK. It's just a minor thing, but it got worse. And so if you have that kind of pain that really is super sensitive and it's really tender when you press on it then you're better off if you if you take it easy. Kit: 16:35 So if I'm understanding you, if right after we twist it if we have immediate hard pain then we may have done that, that 10 percent fracturing. If it's OK and then progressively it gets worse, it's more likely just a sprain? Dr. Segler: 16:48 That's true. That's true. So yes, the subtle ankle fractures, the're first of all that's one out of 10 so it's not really common. But it's also associated with a more severe injury like, (for example) you're wearing a heavy pack. You slip on the side of some loose terrain… some scree or something like that. Dr. Segler: 17:08 And and you have a significant fall. Whereas ankle sprain is, like Adam didn't even fall dow. His foot just kind of flipped over because he was landing on a sloping surface. And and it sort of startled him, but it didn't really hurt that much. But you can imagine that if you, as opposed to just stretching the soft tissue which is basically what an ankle sprain is, if you actually cracked the bone, that's definitely going to hurt more. And then every time you move it it you're moving this fracture… this broken piece of bone. You have jagged bone kind of bumping up against each other where the two pieces are. And that causes a lot of pain. Whereas if you just have an ankle sprain, many times when you're moving it around, it actually starts to feel better just because, I don't know, it kind of pushes some of the fluid out of that area. And it may not hurt that much when you're first moving it. So the more tenderness you have generally the worse it is. Kit: 17:58 In both cases, or one on the other, is it a good time to take vitamin I or ibuprofen? Dr. Segler: 18:06 Well yes. So this is, well, good idea. It depends on your goal. So the thing is, is that if you just have a sprain and you, let's say you are somewhere in a remote area, you're on one of these adventure trips, right? And you're not exactly in a convenient area: you don't have cell reception. You're in Glacier, right? If you're, like on your podcast on glacier, if you're in the middle of nowhere on a trail, you have no cell reception, you have miles to go before you get to the next camp, the next stopping point, or a ranger station, and you really need to get there… almost like a self-rescue kind of thing. I think it's better to take ibuprofen because it will significantly reduce the discomfort. Now, although it is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory, and just because the name we always think it stops inflammation, they really won't stop inflammation that way. Dr. Segler: 18:52 Like if Adam had taken a bunch of ibuprofen right when he sprained his ankle, it was still going to swell. It doesn't really work as an anti-inflammatory until you've taken it for a number of days. But it will certainly decrease the discomfort. So if the goal is to get somewhere, to get to safety, to get to your next stopping point, I think it's worth doing. However if the goal is to get it to heal as quickly as possible, taking ibuprofen or any non-steroidal anti-inflammatory like, Aleve, Nuproxen, any of those things, it's actually counterproductive because studies have shown that non-steroidal anti-inflammatories can actually decrease the healing time for tendon to bone interfaces. And all a ligament is, is basically collagen that connects two bones. So when you have an ankle sprain, you actually have damaged that interface where the bone touches to the collagen ligament. Dr. Segler: 19:45 And if you take anti-inflammatories it can slow down the healing process. So if you think you just have a standard ankle sprain and you need to take it for pain control to get somewhere I think that's fine but if you're trying to get it to heal as quickly as possible I think that can be counterproductive. Kit: 20:01 And Doctor, what kind of dose of ibuprofen would we take if we're just trying to get to the next place? Dr. Segler: 20:05 Well that's a good question. So the thing is, is that without an assessment you should never take more than the over-the-counter doses. What that means for Ibuprofen is basically 400 milligrams or two of the over-the-counter pills. Anything more than that is a prescription dose. But you know many patients do that. They will frequently just on their own take full strength prescription strength doses which would be three or four of them but that's not a good idea unless you talk to your doctor. Because if you have any kidney problems or any that sort of stuff, G.I. gastrointestinal problems, if you have stomach ulcers, anything like that, that can be a terrible idea to take high doses or prescription doses of ibuprofen. Kit: 20:42 Are there any techniques you can give us that will help us prevent the injury in the first place? Dr. Segler: 20:47 Before we talk about how to prevent it, one other thing that actually can really work extremely well if you sprain your ankle, to shut off the inflammation, that's even better than ibuprofen… which doesn't happen everywhere for sure, you know in the Grand Canyon, you kind of only have one choice for water and that's at the bottom of the canyon. But if you're in Glacier, if you're in a number of national parks, if you're in Yosemite, there are rivers, most of which are formed by glacial melt, right? Or are snow melt and they're very very cold, right? And so if you ice the ankle that's one of the best things to stop inflammation. So if you happen to have a mountain stream, that's cold running water, that just sitting with your ankle in the river or stream you know for 10 minutes can make an enormous difference because it constricts all the blood flow and really prevents that inflammation from starting very very effectively. So if you happen to roll your ankle and there is some sort of mountain stream nearby that's cold running water, particularly anywhere like glacier or those types you know in the Himalayas, any of those areas, that can make a huge difference is stopping the inflammation Kit: 21:56 Is there any risk when you take your feet out of your shoes/your boots and it swells up that you can't get them back in? I guess with the rivers they would stay constrained but if you're resting your feet, is there… is that a possibility when you say it swells? Dr. Segler: 22:10 There is a possibility that could happen but that's going to happen either way. The boots aren't really tight enough to stop the swelling. Compression socks would prevent that from happening. But if you are going to take your… and a lot of people want to do that. It feels better to take their boots off. But the truth is, is that the best thing you can do, if you don't have access to a glacial stream or you didn't bring your compression socks or whatever, if you can basically just lie on your back with your feet straight up, leaning against a tree or against a rock, or whatever, and you have your feet way up above your heart. That makes a huge difference is stopping the inflammation because the blood flow has to fight gravity and go uphill at that point. And so keeping your boots and your socks on I think is better because any external compression will help also reduce that inflammation that happens after an ankle sprain. Kit: 22:59 So what kinds of things can we do to prevent problems in the future. Dr. Segler: 23:02 Right. So the first thing is to figure out whether or not you're really at risk. Not everybody has ankle instability but the first thing is, if you've ever sprained your ankle, you're at enormous risk for developing another ankle sprain in the future. So if you roll your ankles when you're a kid, if you sprain your ankles in college playing basketball, if you roll your ankle one time on the beach walking in the sand, you're at risk. And most patients who have had those sort of remote history of an ankle sprain, some time long ago, many years ago, they always think, “Well that was 20 years ago. Can't be a problem.” And so I see these patients all the time and even when I do Skype consult for somebody, for example, they'll tell me that they sprained their ankle a long time ago but it doesn't matter anymore. Dr. Segler: 23:46 And I'll say ok and I have them do a very, very simple test. And all I do is I tell them OK: stand in the middle of the room and hold your arms out straight. So it looks kind of like the the the drunk test on the side of the road. And I just stand there with feet together hold your arms out straight now close your eyes and they kind of roll their eyes more or less and say OK. And then I say OK , now great. Now pick up your right foot. So if their previously injured foot is their right foot, the bad one, pick up their bad foot. So that is just suspended in the air. Kind of like looks like a stork, the way they pick up their leg. Dr. Segler: 24:21 And basically standing there with their arms outstretched bouncing on the right foot with their eyes closed and they may kind of wobble a little bit but they can more or less just balance. And I'll wait until it's been about 10 seconds just to confirm that they can actually balance OK in that position, balancing on one foot. Then I say, OK great. Now put your right foot on the ground, you know, your bad foot. Pick up your good foot, your left foot, hold your left foot up in the air with your eyes closed, your arms outstretched, to see if you can balance. And though usually they keep putting their foot down, losing their balance repeatedly and because their arms are outstretched, they can see how far their arms are swinging before they catch their balance. And at that point what's happening is they actually tore the nerve fibers in the joint capsule when they rolled the ankle so they can't really tell the position of the ankle anymore. Dr. Segler: 25:08 And so the ankle to them feels weaker but it's really just that they've lost what we call proprioception or the ability to determine the position in space based on the ankle moving. And that happens every time you roll your ankle. So if you roll your ankle, you don't have the ability to feel that anymore. And so you know somebody like Adam that has maybe sprained his ankle before and he falls, he lands on the surface, and it starts to roll his ankle, he doesn't notice it's rolling until he feels that he's falling because his vestibular system, or the balance center in his middle ear, actually picks up the motion of him sort of moving sideways to start to fall. Dr. Segler: 25:48 And then it's too late. Your the muscles around the ankle, the peroneus brevis tendon, those things actually stabilize your ankle, they can't pull your foot back under you at that point, and you roll your ankle. So if you do that test where you balance on one foot with your arms outstretched and your eyes closed and you can tell that one foot is considerably weaker than the other, or you have a lot of trouble trying to balance on one foot, then you can do some simple exercises to really strengthen that ankle and actually get that sort of proprioception, or the ability to tell a position without thinking about it, you can get that back by using the stretch receptors in the muscles and it's really just a simple routine. Dr. Segler: 26:31 So there's there's basically a couple of really simple exercises. One of those is where you cross your feet. So like if you're sitting in a chair with your legs outstretched and you cross your legs and you put your little toe joints together and then you push it will stabilize the the the ankles the muscle that supports the ankle the peroneus brevis tendon primarily. And I could actually send you a video that you can put on the Web site if you'd like, or link to it but it's just a short video there may that shows you exactly how to do that. And that's something you can do while you're sitting on a plane while you're sitting at your desk. If you do that that I think is the one exercise that can cause the most increase in strength for anybody with ankle instability. Then for people that have really sprained their ankles, I give them a very specific rehabilitation thing that's like phase one, phase two, and phase three. Dr. Segler: 27:16 Phase three is where you use a wobble board to deliberately train your ankle to become stronger. And I can send you that as well if you want to supply it for people who listen to the podcast The phase three part is what really strengthens your ankle and makes you more or less immune to those kind of sprains that otherwise you'd be so susceptible to. Dr. Segler: 27:38 And literally like spending three minutes a day you could strengthen the ankles in just a couple of weeks. So you'd be at dramatically lower risk for having these kind of problems. Kit: 27:50 If you go to the ActiveTravelAdventures.com Web site, I'll post the video that Dr. Segler talked about for the exercise. I've also posted a video of me doing the self test like the stork to see what my ankles look like. And also have a link to the wobble board. You can find it on the site by either looking up Bonus Episode number two, Dr. Segler, ankles or any of the key search terms should be able to pull it up for you. Just type any of those terms in the magnifying glass search bar. Kit: 28:21 What's the deal on having the shoes having the ankle support? I've always worn like the Merrell trail shoes so they're like a sneaker on the top but then have the trek on the bottom. How important is it to have ankle support? Dr. Segler: 28:33 Well that's a good question. You know so here's the thing. So I actually really wondered about that. And when I was a student in med school, I actually did a research study and because I wondered about this. It was supposed to be about climbing injuries. But the truth is, this study was really about hiking to rock climbs. And so what I did was, I did a study on frequency and mechanisms of injury among rock climbers. And it was the largest type of that sort of study ever done. I actually got a grant from the American Alpine Club to do that investigation. Dr. Segler: 29:09 And that's the thing is, that it's really about the hiking to the climb because I had the suspicion that climbers don't necessarily get injured that much from falling. Dr. Segler: 29:17 It's really from tripping and slipping and spraining ankles and stuff like that while they're riding a heavy pack, wearing relatively lightweight hiking shoes, on their way to the climbs. And many times there's no trail. It's usually some kind of unstable surface. But what I did was I basically sent out surveys to 3500 members of the American Alpine Club and then it got back 603 completed questionnaires. Now the thing is is that the really interesting thing for everybody listening to this is that 80 percent of climbers who reported spraining an ankle while hiking to the base of a climb were wearing those sort of lightweight hiking boots or hiking shoes that you're talking about. And the overwhelming majority of people who fractured an ankle while hiking also were wearing lightweight hiking boots. So lightweight hiking boots are very popular because they breathe. They usually have uppers that are sort of mesh or some lightweight material so that they are comfortable when they're hot and they're light weight. Right? Dr. Segler: 30:16 So they're they're not heavy, and they're more comfortable, but they don't protect you very well. So heavyweight backpacking boots are way more protective. They're also a lot stiffer. They're hard to get used to. You are more risk of getting blisters if you have those and haven't really broken them in. But after that study, I started really put in a lot of effort into encouraging people hiking and rock climbing to wear more sturdy boots. And I think that they actually do really decrease your risk of having an injury if you have more stable heavyweight backpacking boots. So if you pick up the shoe and you hold it in your hands, you try to twist the sole out of shape. It's virtually impossible to twist it out of shape. Dr. Segler: 30:59 It's also very very difficult to bend the sole out of shape as if you're pushing the toes up. But with lightweight hiking shoes and hiking boots is very easy to do that. So I believe they will protect you because they do provide a lot more support provided they're laced up and they're laced appropriately. If you have them loosely laced or you don't lace the top laces they actually really won't help you as much. So then at that point you have a more stable platform underneath you but it doesn't really protect you from ankle sprains So I think that it's important to really think about your footwear, and if you're doing a lot of hiking on the trip, if you can wear the heavyweight boots it actually will protect you some. Kit: 31:41 I'm actually just shopping for some. I'm getting ready to prepare for a trip out to the Himalayas where they are recommending that I wear boots, and at the stores I'm seeing more of the synthetic material instead the leather. Does make a difference? I mean does leather provide a benefit that the synthetics don't? Dr. Segler: 31:55 That's a good question. So in the past I would have said 20 years ago for sure leather was better. But lots of companies now, like La Sportiva and some others, they have really made big strides in terms of increasing the stiffness of heavy weight backpacking boots that are made of synthetic materials. So there's a benefit to everything right? So the synthetics are usually lined with Gore-Tex or something. They're basically waterproof if they do get wet, they dry out faster. If leather boots get wet, they stay wet. If they're wet and they're Gore-Tex leather boots, it doesn't matter your feet don't get cold or wet but the boots are way heavier if they're soaking wet. And you may not think that's a big deal but if you're hiking in the Himalayas and you're hiking 10 miles you have to pick your foot up and put it down a lot of times. Dr. Segler: 32:41 And you know that increased weight does make a difference over time. So the synthetic materials are generally lighter. And you can tell because if you try to twist the boot out of shape — you find like the biggest strongest guy in the store and ask him, see if he can bend this thing… so bend the sole and it won't bend, and you squeeze the heel counter the part of the back of the boot that goes around your heel and it's rock hard and very very stiff, then it's going to be just as supportive as a really heavy weight backpacking boot that's made of leather. Kit: 33:12 What advice can you give us about choosing the right pair of boots? Dr. Segler: 33:23 That's a great question. So the thing is, as many people are concerned that they're going to get blisters or black and blue toenails. And so one common error is that they'll get shoes that are too big. Many times they'll say well maybe I'll get them that are big because I'm going to wear two or three pairs of socks with them. We don't need to wear two or three pairs of socks unless you're going someplace where it's 40 below zero. So if you have boots that fit you appropriately you're at a lower risk of getting problems. So if you get boots that are too big, first of all you have to remember that the shoe break or the curvature that's under the ball the foot is in the wrong position. So when you walk when your heel comes up off the ground your toes are still on the ground and your foot's bending at the ball the foot that's where you want the curvature of the shoe. Dr. Segler: 34:01 If you get a shoe that's one size too big for you the curvature is out in front of you. And those patients then that have boots that are too big they're basically kind of like vaulting off the end of the shoe and it makes things awkward and it can put you at risk of all kinds of different overuse injuries. So it's really important to make sure they fit appropriately. Now most stores, if you go into some store that specializes in hiking boots and that sort of stuff, they'll have people that are knowledgeable about how to fit you correctly and they'll check you and make sure you get the right size shoes. Obviously you don't want your toes banging up against the inside of the boots, but you also don't want them too big. So I would just caution people to make sure that they're getting the right sized boots by getting an appropriate fitting. Kit: 34:42 Should we get rid of the inserts that come with them and put something else in? Dr. Segler: 34:45 I don't think it matters unless you have foot problems. So that's a very popular thing to do. There's a whole range of over-the-counter inserts that are really good. There's lots of different ones available and they can provide more support. Dr. Segler: 35:00 It just depends upon whether or not you need them. And the other thing is, that if you're going to do that, you should definitely do it when you buy the boots. Because the inserts that come in most hiking boots are thinner than the over-the-counter orthotics or over-the-counter inserts that go in the shoes because they're designed to have more support. So because they have more support they have more material underneath you. And if you get boots that fit you perfectly and then you buy some inserts that are thicker by three or four millimeters and you put them in your shoes and suddenly it lifts you up and you may be hitting your toes against inside of the toe box and you have less room in the shoes. So then you've just sort of by buying the inserts may have made your shoes effectively like a half a size too small. Kit: 35:42 Before we sign off is there anything else important that we should know about the treatment and prevention of sprained ankles? Dr. Segler: 35:49 I think that's the main thing. I mean the reality is, is you know you don't need to go prepared with splinting materials and planning for every disaster, right? You have to carry everything you take when you go on an adventure trip and you want to make sure you're prepared, but taking some compression socks is really the simplest thing you can do. Knowing that you can basically ice it by soaking your foot and ankle in a in a stream or elevating it if you do actually sprain it. That's really all you need. But then it's really just doing that self-test at home to see, “Am I or am I not really at risk for problems?” And if I am, then really just trying to do some quick exercises. Just really like, truly like, a couple of minutes a day to get some more ankle stability can go a long way to preventing the kind of problems that could otherwise wreck your trip. Kit: 36:35 Doctor, you also have a podcast can you tell us about that, please? Dr. Segler: 36:41 I do. So, I have a podcast called the Doc on the Run podcast, and mostly I treat injured runners and triathletes. So I see all kinds of patients. I mean, one of the people yesterday was a rock climber. I see lots of different patients. People get injured hiking and everything else. But basically what I do is, I I just realized a long time ago that a lot of times when you go to the doctor they tell you something that just doesn't sit right. Dr. Segler: 37:07 In fact, my my first episode of that I was racing motorcycles professionally and I had damaged my knee and the doctor actually said, “Well if it only hurts when you're riding motorcycles you just quit riding motorcycles.” And then what I learned was that doctors would also tell people, “Well if it hurts when you're running you should just swim. Or if it hurts when you hike you should just do something else.” And the reality is, it's not the doctor's job to tell you what to do. It's the doctor's job to get you back to your activity whatever that is. If you want to hike and you have problems hiking you need somebody that's going to help you get there. And if you want to hike 10 miles a day, then your doctor should help you get to hiking 10 miles a day. So basically I created a podcast to help people understand how to deal with those injuries and how to continue maintaining activity while they're injured so they don't lose all of their fitness. I mean because, let's face it if you're going to go on a long trip you spend a lot of time training, them when you get injured, you lose all of that fitness. And that can be very very frustrating. Dr. Segler: 38:04 I created a podcast to try to help people understand all these different kinds of injuries and help them figure out how to maintain their activity so that they can get back to those those activities as quickly as possible. Kit: 38:15 I noticed on your DocOnTheRun.com Web site you have lots of resources. How about telling us a little bit about those please? Dr. Segler: 38:23 Yes, there are lots of resources. There are lots of different videos, lots of sort of self-diagnosis tools, lots of worksheets to help people figure out what to do and and even some worksheets like one I think came out, well it's coming out tomorrow actually. Basically the idea of when you go to a doctor and they tell you that you need a fractural walking boot, for example. It's basically a worksheet where all you do is printed out, and it tells you what questions to ask your doctor. And that can be useful for anybody with any kind of injury when they want to get back to activity. Because you have to sometimes, when you go to the doctor, you have to get them to slow down and to actually pay attention to what your desired activity is. Dr. Segler: 39:07 So if you say, well I sprained my ankle and the doctor says just take six weeks off, but you're leaving for a trip to go to Glacier National Park in four weeks. That's not really going to work. And so you need to sort of get the doctor to slow down and say, “OK wel,l if I want to go to Glacier do this hike in four weeks, how do I get there?” And it's really just a lot of resources like that where you, a way to help you manage your doctor's visits and get the information you need from the doctor. Because the truth is, it's the doctor's job to go to school, get all the training, learn all this stuff that it takes to help you get better. It's your job as a patient to go to the doctor ready to extract all that information from the doctor. And that's what you really have to do when you go see a doctor, when you have all these injuries and you want to stay active. Kit: 39:46 I'll be sure to put a link to that in the show as well. And I'm also going to put all of your social media contacts but is there a best way for people to reach out to you? Dr. Segler: 39:54 Well the best way is just to, you can go to the Web site to DocOnTheRun.com and send an e-mail through there. You can also e-mail me directly it's just Dr. Segler D-R-S-E-G-L-E-R@DocOnTheRun.com [drsegler@docontherun.com]. Kit: 40:08 Dr. Segler We really appreciate your time. You've given us some great information and I hope we can get you back on another episode. Dr. Segler: 40:13 Allright that sounds great. Thanks. Kit: 40:15 I hope you got as much information out of this program as I did. And please visit DocOnTheRun.com and also check out his podcast. I'll have links to both on the Web site and at ActiveTravelAdventures.com. If you know a hiker or a runner, be sure to share this episode either on Facebook or via email. I'm going to be covering more what to do when something goes wrong on the trail as future bottoms episodes. So if you have questions don't hesitate to e-mail me at Kit@ActiveTravelAdventures.com on that or any ideas for future episodes. I love hearing from you and love your feedback questions and ideas. I'll see you next Thursday. Until next time Adventure on!

Episode 039 Hike Italy : The Italian Lakes District   Hike and Kayak the most beautiful lakes in the world*   Located in the Italian alps, the Italian Lakes District has spectacular pristine lakes surrounded by the majestic alps!  No wonder so many celebrities like George Clooney, Madonna and Sir Richard Branson have purchased homes here.   On today’s Active Travel Adventures podcast, we interview Christine Jenkins, who went on Active Adventure’s ‘Dolce Vita’ fully guided ten day adventure travel holiday.  Christine explains that each day, she thought if she had to go home that day, her expectations were exceeded, and still every day got better still!   She hiked stunning trails overlooking the lakes, and kayaked on Lake Como and Lake Orto (the latter being her favorite since it is less crowded).   Of course, in Italy, all the food and ample wine was divine - and plentiful!   Here is the Dolce Vita itinerary: Day 1:  Arrive Milan Malpensa, visit Sacromonte Varallo Day 2: Hike to Rifugio Crespi Day 3 — Hiking the Walser hamlets of Valsesia Day 4 — Hike down to Pella, boat to Orta San Giulio Day 5 — Sea kayak Lake Orta Day 6 — Hike the Mottarone mountain range Day 7 — Hiking Val Grande National Park Day 8 — Journey to Lake Como, hike to Vezio Castle Day 9 — Sea kayaking Lake Como Day 10 — Back to Milan Malpensa   Links mentioned on today’s show: Ep 28   Annapurna Nepal with Stan Ep 35   Mont Blanc hike through Italy, Switzerland and France Active Adventures fully guided 10 day hike and kayak of the Italian Lake district Podcast web page www.ActiveTravelAdventures.com Host of the Active Travel Adventures podcast   Twitter@Kit_Parks Facebook Group:  Active Travel Adventures Instagram:  parks.kit   Time Stamped Show Notes: 00:00   Intro 02:13   How Christine got in to adventure travel 02:30   How switched from regular travel to adventure travel 03:30   Making new friends on adventure travel holidays 03:55   Why chose the Italian Lakes vacation 04:58   What makes Active Adventures different 05:32   How difficult was this adventure 06:11   Adventure travel as team building 06:24   Where were fellow travelers from 06:47   How did she train 07:33   Is elevation an issue 07:59   Landscape 08:47   UNESCO Valsesia   09:48   Favorite memories 10:20   Refugios 11:45   Hike into Alagna 12:06   Alagna 13:06  Breakfasts 13:47   Italy does food right 14:49   Dinners 15:48   Typical daily activities 17:36   Describe the lakes 19:21   Describe the landscape 20:35   Visit to the glacier 20:57   When did Christine go 21:42   Using hiking sticks 22:06  Surprise lake swim 23:16  Christine describes her group 24:32   The trip exceeds all expectations 25:53   Mont Blanc and Annapurna (Nepal) 26:58   Celebrities at Lake Como 28:28  Played hooky 29:38   Using a local guide 30:02   Paragliding 31:57   Naked boaters at dinner 33:30  Christine’s guides 35:15   Fresh foccacia 35:49   Accommodations 37:25   What she wished she’d known 38:19   Traveling solo 39:23   Advice to anyone considering the Italian Lakes 40:20   How Christine chooses where to travel 42:15   ATA and affiliate partners 43:13   How to get the FREE Travel Planners 43:29   A shout out to Pat 43:37   Reach out to Kit   Time Stamped Show Transcript   Christine: 00:00I said to my roommate, my neighbor, I said, you know, if I have to go home tomorrow, I'm still ecstatic. I've had the best time ever. So each day was like a bonus day... it just can't get any better, and it kept getting better. That's all I can say.   Kit: 00:21'Dolce vida' the good life, the sweet life. Today we're going to explore the sweet life in Italy. We're going to the Italian Lakes district, an area of Italy you may not be familiar with. Welcome to the Active Travel Adventures podcast. I'm your host Kit Parks, and if you're listening to this podcast, you're not interested in an ordinary life. You want a bigger life, one filled with excitement, adventure, interesting people and challenges. You want to explore the world and different cultures. You want to stretch yourself. You get your jollies off a conquering a difficult feat, and you love how adventure travel can propel your life forward. At the Active Travel Adventures podcast, website, and community, our number one mission is to provide you with the information and tools that you need to take on these adventures. Each show explores an exciting new destination to see if it's something you're interested in and you'll be learning what to expect from someone like you who's actually done it.   Kit: 01:11If the destination piques your interest, then head over to the website where you can see photos, get more detailed itinerary information, and other important information on the website. Also, you can download the free printer friendly travel planner. The planner has all the important links and recommendations you need to actually plan your adventure, or you can wait for the beginning of the month when I send out a monthly and note, I say 'monthly' newsletter that includes all the new travel planners along with other tips and deals. I'll never sell your email or spam you, I promise.   Kit: 01:41 So today we're going to be going to the stunningly beautiful Italian lakes district. Our guest today explains how she enjoyed the good life in the Lakes District of Italy. So let's get started. If you could start by just introducing yourself and perhaps telling us your age.   Christine: 02:01My name is Christine Jenkins and I am 66 years old.   Kit: 02:05 And how did you first get into adventure travel?   Christine: 02:08I probably started a good 15 years ago. I've always wanted to travel. I've always wanted to see the world. I think I got that from my mom who never had that opportunity, so she always was encouraging. And I also love the outdoors and I just connected my two loves.   Kit: 02:28 How did you make the leap say, okay, I want to do that kind of travel versus the tour bus or go to the cities and all that? And so what, what was the thought process or how did you finally say, okay, this is what I'm going to do? And then what did you do?   Christine: 02:40Well, I actually, I have done the bus tours. I did two with my mom and then one day I, and this was before the Internet was really popular, I knew there was a hiking trip in Nova Scotia, Canada and I decided to sign up for that and flew Halifax in Nova Scotia. And my husband was a little worried about me going by myself, so that was my first test and I loved it ever since. I love the outdoors. I love the sounds when you're by yourself. I love getting off the beaten track. Usually you're with a group of likeminded people. I've met some fabulous people on all my hikes.   Kit: 03:22 That's one thing I, that's a recurring theme in this show is that you meet people... That usually each trip I make one or two lifelong friends from that trip.   Christine: 03:32I still keep in touch with two people. In fact, one couple lives in North Carolina. Actually, no, it was my second trip. It was to Newfoundland and there's a couple, both doctors, and they're in Raleigh, North Carolina. And I still keep in touch with them.   Kit: 03:47 And today we're going to be talking about the Italian lakes. So, of all the different trips that you've taken, what made you say that's where I'm going next?   Christine: 03:55It's actually a kind of a funny story. I knew, you know, I was looking around to see where I wanted to go next. I happen to be on Facebook and one of my Facebook friends kept saying, you know, he liked Active Adventures, so I thought, -- and he's kind of an outdoors guy... he teaches physical education... he's a kind of a historian... So I decided, I'm going to checkout this Active Adventures.   Christine: 04:21So I checked it out and I saw the different hikes, but the one that really drew me was Italian Lakes District, I think partly because of the length of time it was 11 days, which was really nice. We could fly in from Toronto to Milan. So it was a direct flight. It was easy to get to, but I think the kicker was we got to kayak for two days, which broke up the hiking. And I love kayaking and it was perfect. I asked my neighbor, "Do you want to come?" She said, "Sign me up," and away we went.   Kit: 04:50Perfect. Yeah, that's, that is one thing I like about Active is it's usually not just hiking. They usually mix in some cycling or paddling or something like that, so multisport, but predominantly hiking.   Christine: 05:01That's right. Predominantly hiking and if you didn't want to hike in a day, that's fine too. We had a lady who had a a meniscus issue and she had a torn meniscus. She had come in from Iceland. She was a photo journalist and so they accommodated her and so she got to do what she wanted to do during the day. So they were very accommodating, very flexible   Kit: 05:24 And how difficult is this, because you know, there's different degrees of difficulty for some of these adventures. On a scale of one to five, where would you place this particular adventure?   Christine: 05:33I would probably put it, I'd say between three and four. I mean I've certainly done more challenging hikes, but there were a few days it was challenging, like our very first full hiking day, you know, because where I live we don't have mountains to climb, so yeah, it was, I thought it was challenging, but it wasn't beyond... none of us had to say, "I can't do this. I give up." We all did it. We all pulled together and we had a great time.   Kit: 06:02 It's almost like a team building experience as well.   Christine: 06:05It was. It was and a sense of accomplishment at the end of the day. And trust me, when you got to hike through some of these beautiful alpine valleys, it was worth it!   Kit: 06:16 And that's one thing that we really didn't tell folks exactly where the Italian lakes are... And this is in northern Italy. So you're in the Alps?   Christine: 06:24You are in the Alps. When you land in Milan, you can actually... It doesn't take long for you to leave Milan and you can see the Alps in the background. And a couple of places where we were, Switzerland was across the lake, so that's how far north we were.   Kit: 06:39 Wow. Wow. So what kind of training did you do to prepare for this?   Christine: 06:44I kayak because I live near a lake, so I did a lot of kayaking. I try to walk, I have two dogs. I walk them everyday, so that's seven kilometers. And I did small day hikes in my area. I've always had good cardiovascular health and so I didn't really find it a problem. I just keep active in the winter. I snow shoe and I cross country ski so I always had my heart rate up and I think that's the key. And pacing yourself, you know. Pacing yourself, if you pace yourself too, you don't have to feel like you have to be at the head of the line all the time. If you do, not to say slow, but a, a steady pace, it works out.   Kit: 07:25 Was elevation an issue for you or for any of the other hikers?   Christine: 07:30No, not here. I've had it in Peru, but no. I did not experience it and I don't believe any of my other fellow hikers experienced it, or, they didn't mention it at all.   Kit: 07:42 Okay. So most of the higher mountains are surrounding you, is that right? I'm trying to get a visual. Tell us a little bit about the landscape so we can kind of get a picture what it looks like.   Christine: 07:50Well, at the beginning, like I said, in our first full hike, you know, we went up through the alpine meadows. There was snow up higher in the mountains. You went through these little lush valleys. It's just like a picture postcard you would think of as a for Switzerland, but you were still in Italy. And you come to a little hamlet in the middle of nowhere and the people were lovely.   Christine: 08:14We'd have our lunch at a refugio somewhere. We'd have local meats and cheeses and you're just looking at the mountains and the waterfalls, and all you can hear when you're hiking is a bit of a breeze. The cow bells, because all the cows have bells around their necks and it was... there was no other manmade sound. So it was, it was beautiful, priceless.   Kit: 08:38 Very cool. Now in that first valley you go to as a UNESCO World Heritage site and I'm going to say this wrong, I say everything wrong, Valsesia, something like that.   Christine: 08:48Valsesia. Yes. I believe that's how it's pronounced.   Kit: 08:51 Can you tell us a little bit about that?   Christine: 08:53It was nice because as far as landscape, it was stunning. I'll probably use that word a lot in my descriptions, but everything was stunning... spectacular. At the main center was Varallo, and it was beside a river. And we hiked up to a UNESCO world heritage site and there's a monastery there. And you can come out over edge and looked down over the town of Valsesia.   Christine: 09:17Yeah, and yeah, it was incredible. Incredible. Some of the oldest religious structures in Italy are located there in. It's on the side of the valley.   Kit: 09:27 I see here in my notes that the Franciscan friars built that in 1491. For those of us here in the States we are like, "Whoa, that's old. Right?"   Christine: 09:36That's the year before Columbus sailed the ocean blue.   Kit: 09:41 Well seeing that sounds like a great way to start your adventure. Any other favorite memories from that day?   Christine: 09:45You know, it's funny, one of the memories I have is looking at the ledge over the town below and we could see this thunderstorm, this huge thunderstorm coming down a valley across the way. So that was really kind of neat to see and you could see it approaching us. And the thunder in the mountains, you know, they bounce: the echoes of the thunder bounces off the mountains. So it's sounds a lot louder than it was probably was.   Kit: 10:08 . You mentioned refugios. For those that may not be familiar with that term, can you explain that please?   Christine: 10:17It's a small hamlet or a refuge, I guess would be the English way. We went to a couple of them for a couple of hikes and one in particular we had to hike up to this place where we were going to have our lunch, and it was uphill and it was a, it was a challenging hike and it was by this really wildly raging river. Anyway, we get to this refugio. It's like a little hamlet there.   Kit: 10:43 Okay. I need some more clarification there. I think of refugio is kind of like a mountain hut.   Christine: 10:48There was, there were several huts, so you could actually, I think stay there, but I don't think they're privately owned and they had this restaurant. And there's no road in and the food was outstanding, like it was just, you know, you couldn't believe like you could have fresh cheeses and meats from the local valley.   Christine: 11:13There was fresh rabbit, there was fresh fish. Nothing was deep fried. Like in North America, we would not hike or walk our way to a restaurant like that. If we did, people would complain, but everything would be deep fried. Everything here is fresh and you could sit out in the patio and look at the mountains and the rivers and it was beautiful. Just beautiful.   Kit: 11:36 And so after your lunch, then what did you do?   Christine: 11:39Well, we had a bonus because we get to go downhill the whole way and we hiked all the way back into Alagna and that's where we stayed for three nights in Alagna. And actually one of our guide's, Andrea, he was from Alagna. So he was able to give us the inside scoop on Alagna.   Kit: 11:58 So tell us a little bit about Alagna.   Christine: 12:00Alagna, it looks like a little Swiss town, but you've got to keep reminding yourself that you're in Italy. There's all little cafes, shops... Where we stayed - at the hotel Monterosa - it was right beside the church and the church rings the bells every hour and a half hour, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. But it was a beautiful little hotel where we stayed. The town was old. Alagnal is sort of off the beaten track for North Americans to go over, especially in the winter. But English wasn't... It wasn't difficult to get by when you were talking to a shopkeeper or in a little cafe, you were understood or you figured it out. But there were all little side streets. There was a beautiful little river going outside of town, which we could hear from our hotel. And yeah, it was a lovely time. We were there for three nights. Fabulous breakfast in the morning. Yeah, it was great.   Kit: 12:57 And so what, what kind of foods do they have for breakfast? And from my notes, it looks like that whole area was populated by German people that moved there in like fifth century AD or something.   Christine: 13:08Yeah, the Valser people. Yes. Well the hotel we stayed at for the three days are actually owned by some, a couple from Sweden and think that's been a couple of generations in their family. But in breakfast we had fresh fruit, Granola, homemade breads, homemade jams, coffee, tea, yogurt. Really good yogurt. You didn't starve. That's all I can tell you. It was probably the best Granola I've ever had in my life.   Kit: 13:37 Probably freshly made and everything. And they do food right!   Christine: 13:40It's all fresh. I can tell you that whole trip I did not have... We did not have one bad meal anywhere. It was hard to come home.   Kit: 13:50 We could sure learn how to do food better from the way they do things we do. We do. And they eat seasonally to. They wouldn't think of having strawberries in the middle of winter. They eat what is locally produced and available then.   Christine: 14:01They do eat seasonal and the other thing they do is they eat as local as possible, so you may get... If we had a prepared lunch, like maybe our guide, we had two guides, Andrea and Jo, and they might prepare, pick up some stuff, at little stores or grocery stores and they put out this fabulous picnic lunch with cheeses that were from that valley. That was the only place you could get it or salamis... That type thing. Breads, fresh fruit and yeah, it was. It was incredible. The wine, of course we had wine at lunch.   Kit: 14:37 Nice. Nice. And what about dinner?   Christine: 14:39Well actually I was going to say that was one of the things that was outstanding for this trip was the food. All our meals were covered and nothing was skimped on. We ate the best you could possibly have. We had wine with lunch. Usually we had wine with dinner, but what was interesting is after we'd finished our hike for the day or our kayak, we go back to our rooms, change, meet for dinner. We'd always have an aperitivo, which is like... it was a tray brought out and the had meats and cheeses and crackers and add wine. Then I'd think, "Oh, that's our dinner." No, it's not dinner, and then we'd still go to a restaurant. And so I'm really glad that we were hiking because I'm sure I'dve come home about 10 pounds more than I normally am.   Kit: 15:27And you're in Italy so you know everything's going to be good.   Christine: 15:31Oh yeah. Everything was beyond my expectations. Everything was fresh, nothing was processed. It was awesome.   Kit: 15:39 Very cool. So now you're using this as your base camp. So what kinds of things did you do each day?   Christine: 15:44If we didn't do hiking, we did the kayaking on the lakes: Lake Orta and Lake Como. We didn't kayak on Maggiore. There was one day we decided as a group -- and we had a small group that was just five hikers-- so that was kind of nice, and we decided one day we didn't want to hike and were in Stresa, which is on Lake Maggiore. So we went and walked into town. Some went to the islands and we did a little bit of shopping. So we just, like I say, the guidess were very flexible, and like I said, we decided we didn't want to hike that day.   Christine: 16:19On the days we went kayaking, we'd be out by the water's edge at nine in the morning and then there was a gentleman by the name of Juliana who came up from Genoa, Italy. He brought the kayaks first time, most all the people had kayaked before, so that was good. But he gave us safety instructions. We got fitted with life jackets and we were usually by 9:30, we were out on the lakes. We stop about maybe 10, 30, 11 at a little village and stop for an espresso and then we get back in our kayak, kayak a bit more and then stop it another village and maybe have lunch or stop at a beach. And our guides would put lunch out. In between that we go swimming in the lakes. And then in the afternoon we might stop about 2:30 or 3:00 in another little village and have gelato. It was very civilized. It was, yeah. It was very civilized.   Christine: 17:19And swimming: The lakes were clear and it was... It was hard to believe you weren't at the ocean. The colors of the lakes were beautiful.   Kit: 17:28 So tell us about the lakes itself. What is it? The fact that the lakes are surrounded by mountains or the lakes are particularly pretty in and of themselves? I'm trying to get a feel for what it looks like.   Christine: 17:39Well, the lakes are, they are like jewels. And there was this one day we did hike to the top of one of the mountains , and we could see Orta and Maggiore on both sides. So we had a really good view. Orta is the smallest, then Maggiore, then Como. The lakes were like a blue color, like a aqua blue color. Very clear. Especially in Como. The sides had these old Italian homes that have probably been in families for generations.   Christine: 18:10You know, there's the Piazza's nearby, and I think George and Amal Clooney live on Como, (but we didn't see them). But very steep sides to a lot of the lakes, but there are some beaches. Two of the lakes are Lake Como and Lake Orta are what they call 'crypto depression' and that's the one word I took away... my takeaway from that trip. Crypto depression means the bottom of the lake is actually below sea level and there are a few other ones in the world. Actually the Finger Lakes up in New York state. And actuallyOrta is not a crypto depression. Maggiore and Como are crypto depression, so they're below sea level and the lakes are usually long and narrow and their shores are very steep.   Christine: 19:06I think it was in Maggiore that they believe Mussolini hid his gold and it might be lying at the bottom of the lake. He had a hideout on Maggiore, on one of the islands on Maggiore. So that's the legend. That's a local legend   Kit: 19:12 OK, so when you're doing the hiking, are you in pastures, forests, or what are you hiking through?   Christine: 19:17We're doing it all. There were pastures, forests... There was one day we went through a whole, for about an hour and a half, all it was was chestnut trees. And it was quite a challenging hike. It was steep and it was very hot, but it was so, it was so pretty and so quiet. And we came out to pasture area, and then we had to go under some fences. So yes we had a real variety of landscapes for. hiking.   Christine: 19:57There was another day when we went up in a gondola and then we went up on a series of three gondolas, too. We actually got up to where the glaciers were, and that was an interesting day. It was cold and there was a lot of ice hikers, they had the crampons on their boots and they were doing some ice hiking. But we had to take three sets of gondolas to go higher and higher and higher. And if you have a fear of heights, you may not want to take it. I found that kind of a challenge, but you know, it was very barren landscape, which is a rock and ice and we'd be going along and you'd think that the gondola was going to hit the side of a rock face and then suddenly it will go up and then you were in your station where you get off and walk to the next one and keep going higher up. That was quite incredible.   Kit: 20:33 Did you get to walk on the glacier or just look at it?   Christine: 20:37Yes. We got to walk on the snow. Yes, we did. That is so cool. It was down below. It was probably in the upper eighties, low nineties up (there). It was a bit of a reprieve.   Kit: 20:49 And so what month did you go?   Christine 20:50 July   Kit: 20:52 July. Okay. So you're in the heat of summer.   Christine: 20:53Oh yes. Yes. But apparently it was very warm there in June. They had a trip in June, so I understand it was warm then, but you know what? It wasn't a really oppressive heat. It wasn't really humid. It wasn't really dry, but it was manageable. If you're dressed appropriately, I would strongly recommend a sun hat, especially to cover the back of your neck and your face, I would. That's the one thing. And the other thing I would suggest to people is to take hiking poles. Some people didn't. I think that they're really is helpful for, steadying yourself and, and pulling yourself up on steep parts or giving you some stability.  And when we're on the way down the mountain.   Kit: 21:33 Well I like poles too, for going downhill because they take a lot of pressure off my knee. Yes. And also I'm clumsy. I cannot tell you how many falls they've stopped by having that extra appendage to me or crossing a river or creek. They give you that little extra stability. I don't think I've ever fallen in a creek. I don't want to jinx myself though.   Christine: 21:50No, I haven't either, but one never knows.   Kit: 21:54 Of course. Now I will. Now that I've put that out in the universe. Any other special memories from that area?   Christine: 22:00Well, one of the days I have that sticks out in my mind was on Lake Orta and we went over to San Giulio Island and it's... There's a monastery there and abbey and you could... It's very easy to walk around this little island and there's several spots where you looked down like the old cobblestone streets.   Christine: 22:20Very narrow. In fact, I don't even think there was vehicles on it. I don't even recall any vehicles anyway that you could go swimming. So our group (Jo left us, she had to do some things), so our group, we went down the small passageway to the lake and four of us didn't have bathing suits on, but they were in our pack sack, so we lost all modesty. Just went into just a little dip in the wall, threw caution to the wind, stripped down, put on our bathing suits, dove in the lake, and we thought, well, if there's cameras out there, there's cameras out there. So be it. But the water felt so beautiful against your hot skin. It was...it was beautiful. It was just the most incredible feeling. You can feel yourself cool down and we were laughing like crazy, yet we felt like kids.   Kit: 23:07 That was fun. In your group, you said there's a small group of five: men, women or a combination?   Christine: 23:12All women. My neighbor came, and then there was a lady from San Diego and a lady from Manhattan, and a lady from Rochester.   Kit: 23:21 And what would you say the age group range was?   Christine: 23:24I would say the age group would have been maybe 52... The lady from San Diego was in her fifties, early fifties and to about in the upper seventies. And these ladies -- all of them are really in great shape -- they did their age group proud. They had nothing to be ashamed of . We had the lady from Rochester who was in her seventies and she was fabulous. She was in fabulous shape.   Kit: 23:55 Wow. Those are my role models. In fact, I interviewed a guy by the name of Stan on the Annapurna episode, which I'll put a link to in the show notes. He's in his seventies and has already planned an adventure for two years out. Unbelievable! Cool. That's how I want to age.   Christine: 24:07Wow. That's good for him. Well, I'm planning to go to Mont Blanc next year. I've already booked my trip.   Kit: 24:16 Alright, so any other, any other thoughts about that area before we go to the Val Grande National Park?   Christine: 24:22All I can say... I'll just reiterate just the whole atmosphere. You know, it's funny, I was thinking about it last night: thinking about what I was going to say each day of that trip, the whole trip and combination each day. I, I remember saying to my roommate, my neighbor, I said, "You know, if I have to go home tomorrow, I'm still ecstatic. I've had the best time ever. So each day was like a bonus day, a bonus day. It just... it can't get any better, and it kept getting better. That's all I can say. This has been no doubt, the best hiking trip I've ever had, and I've been to a lot of places. There was nothing I have to say bad about it. Nothing.   Kit: 25:10Wow. And that sure says a lot.   Christine: 25:12Yes. And I'd actually consider going back again in two years... Do it again.   Kit: 25:17 Yeah. It hadn't really even been on my radar, but then I started doing some research, and I thought, that looks really nice. I think that's now on the radar.   Christine: 25:23Well, it hadn't been on my radar either. I mean I have looked at other places. I've looked at Scotland, I've been to Scotland before. I thought about Iceland and I do know Active Adventures does Iceland now, but I was supposed to go to Mont Blanc with another company two years ago, but I badly broke my arm so that put a caboosh on that. So anyway. But anyways...   Kit: 25:46 In fact, the Mont Blanc episode is probably one of my most popular ones.You'll want to take a look at that? That's episode number 35, and I forgot to mention that Stanley, the guy that I said in the seventies that did Annapurna in Nepal, his was episode number 28. Anytime you want to look at an old episode, just go to ActiveTravelAdventures.comslash the episode number, so it'd be slashed 28 or 35, or if you forget, just go to the Directory Page, and then you can either use the search bar or just scroll down and see what rocks your boat.   Kit: 26:15On the website. You can either directly download and/or listen to the podcasts.Plus, you'll also find more details on the trip itself, including itineraries, tons of photos, often videos, and there's just a lot of information there. If you need either even further details, you can download -for free- the travel planners that have clickable links that can get you directly to the information or places that you need in order to plan your trip. And those come automatically with the monthly -- and note that I say monthly-- newsletter. I do not spam you or sell your name. Or you can download them as you need them from the website. Let's go back to the interview.   Kit: 26:50I know from the pictures that you sent, and from my research that the Italian Lakes area is absolutely gorgeous. But to put that in prospective, residents have included George and Amal Clooney, Richard Branson, Madonna.. These are folks who can buy and live anywhere: where money is no object. Yet, this is where they choose. That demonstrates how beautiful it is there.   Christine: 27:13There are some beautiful mansions and you can tell they've been in families for a long, long time and they're old architecture but so beautifully maintained and what was really neat is the boat pulls into a garage at the side of the cliff. It's like a boat garage, you know, and these beautiful old wooden boats. Oh yeah. Fabulous. Fabulous. Obviously this is a ritzy area, very private, very exclusive, especially at Como and. But you'll also see a lot more North Americans there too. Like eEnglish is extremely common, and British and British accents or North American accent. So on my flight over to Milan, there were people... That's where they were going to Bellagio on Lake Como,   Kit: 28:04 A Huffington Post article once ranked the Italian Lakes district as the most beautiful lakes in the world.   Christine: 28:10Oh, I can understand that! Orto is not as busy a lake. It's the smaller of the lakes. I preferred that lake just because it was less busy.   Kit: 28:21 So let's switch gears and now you're going to the Val Grande National Park. an you tell us a little bit about that?   Christine: 28:24Yeah, that was the one day... We actually that day we did not do that. That was the day we decided not to hike. That was the hookey day. So a couple of us walked into Stresa, which is a small village, beautiful little boardwalk from where we were staying, all the way into Stresa. And some of these beautiful old hotels along the lake side, you know, something you would see from the 1920's-30's. I'm sure they're wildly expensive and then there's three islands on the lake and you could take the boats to them. And we all met on this one island for lunch.   Kit: 29:02 But it sounds like that was a well worth it Hookey Day.   Christine: 29:04It was well worth the hooky day. So no, and everything was fine. We enjoyed our day so I can't comment on Val Grande National Park except to say apparently there's a lot of hiking trails in there. And they suggest you have a guide or a proper map because there are people who have gotten lost and they have never been found there. So that kind of struck the fear of God into us.   Kit: 29:30 So I think to a lot of times when you're hiking in some of these particularly remote areas that it's good to have a guide with you.   Christine: 29:37I think it is too. I mean you learn so much too. Especially somebody local, right?   Kit: 29:41 Yeah. The flora and fauna as well. You might see an animal. You have no idea what it is or a pretty flower and it's just something you take a picture of where they can tell you, oh, that's a little, little whatever it is.   Christine: 29:52Yeah, exactly. Exactly.   Kit: 29:54 When people ask you, "Oh, how was your trip?" What's the story that comes to mind?   Christine: 29:57Well, I did something on the trip that was accommodated for me and for the lady from San Diego. We were able to do it. It's not so much funny, but it was fun. We were able to do it, I think, because we had a small group and we went paragliding.   Kit: 30:17That sounds fun.   Christine: 30:19Yes. So, and that was in Alagna. So two of us went paraglidingone morning. When we went with a pilot -and we went separately- and we had to take a gondola up to the site is about at 8,800 feet. And we were up for about 20 minutes and then you could come in. And we landed over in Alagna and I remember the pilot saying to me, "Do you want to touch the steeple of the churches as we go by?" I said that I'd pass on that one.   Kit: 30:47Oh brother, I don't know if I'd have the nerve to do that!   Christine: 30:52So that's wasn't in the plans. And and I don't think if they had a big group that they could do that, but they accommodated, us. And we were able to do it because we could do it early in the morning and the weather was right, the window was right, that type of thing.   Christine: 31:07So the other things we did that was a lot of fun is we went down, it's called LP Land and it's on Mottarone Mountain and it's up at the top. You start at about 1,490 meters and it's a go cart, and you go down the mountain in a go kart by yourself (or with somebody else) and it zigzags down and you can reach some pretty high speeds. That was, you know, you get a beautiful view of the lake, although you're trying to not scream as you're going down, so not die and hope hang onto your water bottle or if you know. But um, that was fun.   Kit: 31:47 Any funny story come to mind?   Christine: 31:49Oh, okay. I do have a funny one. Actually. We were on Lake Orto. We were out for evening dinner. One night we were at arestaurant right on the lake. Beautiful meal as usual, and w see this boat going by. And there's three naked men in it, and they're raising their glasses of wine to all the patrons of the restaurant. So everybody's kind of stunned and we thought, well, we'll wait for them to come back. We'll have our cameras ready. But they never came back. But we all had a good laugh over that one. That was. Yeah, that was funny. That was funny.   Kit: 32:21 And Europeans have a different mentality about nudity than North Americans.   Christine: 32:25You know what? And that's the other thing too, is I really like. You're absolutely right. I saw a lot of ladies who would be in their fifties, sixties, seventies, and they were wearing bikinis. And I thought, "Good for you!" In fact, I almost thought about buying one for myself, but Jo our one guide, she said that their attitudes over here are so different. And yeah, I thought: it is what it is, and they were out there in their bikinis.   Kit: 32:54I'm surprised they had tops on, but maybe that's just the south of France.   Christine: 32:58I saw all with tops if they were standing up or sitting up. But their men folk were attentive to them. They were draped in gold jewelry and all that.   Kit: 33:08That's so interesting. Yeah. And France, most of the women didn't have tops and it didn't make a difference what shape your body was in skimpy bathing suits.   Christine: 33:17I know, I know. And we have a lot to learn in North America.   Kit: 33:23 Any other things you want to tell us about your Italian lakes adventure?   Christine: 33:27 I want to tell you that we had two guides and I really want to mention our guides, Andrea, who is from Alagna, Italy and Jo.Jo was originally from Wales but lives in Auckland, New Zealand now. Those guys were outstanding. They were knowledgeable. They were patient, they were flexible. Andrea, he was a really good van driver. He navigated all these little narrow roads. Sometimes we go through these little villages where the road was barely wider than the mirrors of vehicle and yeah, he, you know, we always felt safe with him. Jo was funny. We gave her a nickname. We called her '10 minute Jo' and the reason was, if we'd be hiking a particularly challenging day,she'd go, "Well there's a refugio up ahead." "Well, how far is that, Jo?" "Oh, it's about 10 minutes," and then a while later we'd be thinking. Well, it's been 10 minutes. She'd then say, "Oh, it's another 10 minutes." Everything was 10 minutes with her, so we ended up calling her '10 minute Jo'.   Kit: 34:29That reminds me when I was doing a two week section hike of the Appalachian trail with my girlfriends, Gerry and Jane. And I had the elevation map and so I would always know exactly how many more hills we had to climb, but as we're getting tired at the end of the day... Everybody's pooped., ready to find a camp site and all that. I'd be like, "Come on, you can do it. This is the last hill, I promise! This, the last hill!" And we'd get up over that hill, and of course there'd be another hill. I was like, "Oh no,really, THISis the last hill." So I'm not sure what they called me behind my back, but I doubt there were as kind in calling me "10 minute Kit". Sometimes to make it to the end, you've just got to fib.   Christine: 35:03Yeah, I know.   Kit: 35:07 Anything else about your guides or transit?   Christine: 35:09 Well, one of the other little things I have to tell you about is Giuliano, who was the gentleman... He would drive up from Genoa twice with all the kayaks. And the second time he came up he brought us some foccacia from a local bakery. He left at 5:00 AM in the morning from Genoa to get up to the Lakes ,and he had this fresh foccacia. And it was actually still a bit warm when we had it at our break. That was memorable, and it was so good.   Kit: 35:36Oh, how sweet and thoughtful.   Christine: 35:39Yeah. Very thoughtful.   Kit: 35:42 And I forgot to ask you accommodations. Are you in guest houses or are your camping? I know you said you were at one place for three days. Tell us a little bit about where you stayed.   Christine: 35:49We stayed in hotels. The first three nights and we were in Alagna. It was a beautiful old hotel run by a couple from Sweden and I love the wooden shutters because they could open up, you know. And clean, clean rooms. In Stresa, all the rooms were clean and had air conditioning. Yeah, there was nothing too. ..There was absolutely no complaints about the accommodation. It was close to everything. If we wanted to walk somewhere, the one place we stayed at, and I can't think of the name of the town, but they would mostly have balconies or a little doors that open up, although we didn't because it was quite warm. Yeah, it was. The combination was excellent. Excellent.   Kit: 36:30 I'm surprised you had air conditioning. That's great.   Christine: 36:32I know, I know. The one thing, over in Europe, if anybody's ever traveled there, the elevators are very small, so if you know, maybe two people get on with one suitcase each. No more than that. So that's the one adjustment. The other adjustment is a lot of times in Europe they don't use face cloths, so you might, if you, if you are big on using a face cloth, you might want to bring your own face cloth, that type of thing. But other than that it's um, you don't want for anything. I mean, if you need a toothpaste, it's easy to get. If you need wine, it's easy to get. So it's not like you're in a third world country. But little tips like that.   Kit: 37:16 Is there anything you wish you'd known beforehand that you could share with us?   Christine: 37:23No. The only thing I know in the guide -our gear guide- they suggested bringing is a hat and gloves and long underwear. We definitely did not need to pack that. It was too hot. So that took up room and maybe they have a standard gear list they give to everybody, but if I was going in June or July to the Italian Lakes District, definitely don't worry about that. You wouldn't have to worry about that.   Christine: 37:51But I would strongly. I've mentioned earlier, I would strongly suggest poles.   Kit: 37:55Yep. That's a given for me.   Christine: 37:56I know some people don't like them, but I. Yeah, that's a given for me too as well.   Kit: 38:00Yeah. I don't hike without them anymore. I don't care where I'm going and also keeps my rhythm.   Christine: 38:04Oh, it does! Yeah, it does. And it really does. And it gives you a bit of an upper body upper body workout to.   Kit: 38:11 One final thing. You say you travel solo. Usually you will pair up with a group or something like that. I just finished an episode, in fact, I just finished editing it this morning on solo travel. Do you have any thoughts on solo travel?   Christine: 38:23It's how I usually travel. I happened to ask my neighbor. We have traveled once before together and she's a great traveler. We had gone to Point Reyes national seashore in California. We went for a week with a group.   Christine: 38:37I prefer... I like solo traveling because I can, in the evening if I want to go to bed earlier, if I want to read till 1:00 in the morning, I'm not disturbing anybody. You meet some great people traveling solo. I used to be really nervous about traveling solo. Not anymore. There's a lot of women out there that travel solo now. A lot more than one would think. And, and if you find there's other solo travelers, you just kind of end up connecting and looking out for each other. And that's the other thing too, as a group, you spend that much time together. You do become a big family and you do look out for one another.   Kit: 39:16 Two final questions for you. Number one: Somebody says to you, "I'm thinking about going hiking in the Italian lakes." What do you tell them?   Christine: 39:25I say, I'll give you the name of Active Adventures. You will have the best time ever. I promise. I promise you. In fact, I'll go with you.   Kit: 39:34 My last question for you. Where's next?   Christine: 39:38Next year in Switzerland, Italy where you fly into Geneva. So I'm going to do that with Active Adventures. That's my next one. And then in 20,20 I always say I want to go back to the Italian Lakes, but there's so many places to go in this world. I've been to New Zealand but I've never hiked in New Zealand. So I mean there's always that option. There's so many places, so little time, you know, and you want to do those things when you're healthy.   Kit: 40:07And I mean this is not an ad for Active Adventures, but we're both fans. Do you now, when you're picking out which trips are you looking at their website and say where do I go next from there? Or how do you pick your next trip?   Christine: 40:20Well, like I said I had wanted to go to Mont Blanc two years ago and was I had already booked it and I was actually going with my neighbor, the one who went on this one, but I had broken my arm. She went on ahead so it was always in the back of my mind and I was going to go with another company, but I saw through Active Adventures they did Mont Blamc but they also do a kayaking day, which I thought I liked that it kind of changes things up a bit, so that's why I'm going with Active. I've put my deposit down and I'm ready to roll next June.   Kit: 40:51Cool. And so is that how you choose your trips?Is by looking to see where they go now that now that you're a fan or do you follow what I'm saying? How do you choose your next trip? Are you looking at their website to see where they go and choosing from there or do you pull from different areas are or how do you pick your next destination?   Christine: 41:09Oh, so if I was going post 2019, I would see if they have any changes in what places they want or new additions. If there was a particular place I want to go, let's say I wanted to go to Croatia or I wanted to hike in Portugal. I may look online and see about other hiking companies or if it's doable, so I kind of explore. I kind of explore a bit, but to see what others have to say. And like you say, the only reason I found out about Active Adventures was through a friend on Facebook who his Active Adventures kept coming up. So I said, you know, yJo Blow likes Active Adventures. I thought I'm going to have to look into this because I know this guy and he wouldn't just say that. So that's how I got onto it.   Kit: 41:56Well thanks Christine for your time. It's been great and we sure loved learning about the Italian Lakes with you. We'll have to have you back on when you do your next adventure.   Christine: 42:03Alright, for sure.   Kit: 42:05 I love how adventure travel doesn't always mean that you're getting in the mud and all that kind of stuff. Sometimes you can even go to luxurious locations like the Italian Lakes District and live the good life.   Kit: 42:15Regular listeners will know that I don't accept any advertising at all for this program so that I can keep it commercial free. However, I do have affiliate partnershipswith companies that I have selected that I truly believe in, that I recommend to you and with these affiliates at absolutely zero cost to you. Sometimes I'll either get a discount or I might make a commission or sometimes I'll get some bonus travel and such like that. And I want to mention that Active Adventures, even though their name sounds very similar to Active Travel Adventures, we are two totally separate companies, but Active Adventures is one that I highly recommend because my friends and I are true believers that It's just a great company.   Kit: 42:51The people just really spend their time trying to give you a trip of a lifetime, so if like Christine, you want to explore the Italian Lakes District with a guided tour company, I would recommend Active and if you do so, please be sure to let them know that I sent you either by using any of my links or just by letting them know when you book. Using any of my links is a great FREE way for you to show your support of this program.   Kit: 43:13 To get the FREE Travel Planners, be sure to sign up for the newsletter. You can do so by going to the ActiveTreavelAdventures.com website and then clicking on the newsletter tab, or you can just write me a Kit [@t] active travel adventures.com and ask me to put you on. I'll be happy to.   Kit: 43:29 A special shout out to Pat.Pat did just that, and then it wasn't long before we were on the phone chatting. And before you knew it, we're going to be roommates on a great trip to Egypt this fall. I can't wait!   Kit: 43:37 Reach out to me.I'd love to hear from you and I'd like to make this a two way conversation. Until next time, I'll be back in two weeks with another great adventure. This time we're going to go a little bit further north. We're heading up to Norway, which I can't wait to share that with you. Until then. This is Kit Parks, Adventure On.   *According to the Huffington Post