Podcast appearances and mentions of marie poulin

In this Flashback Friday episode, I revisit my conversation with Tiago Forte, the visionary behind the "Building a Second Brain" methodology. With his book making waves, and after having attended the Second Brain Summit, it felt like the perfect time to re-share this impactful episode. Tiago has not only been a force in the productivity space but has pioneered a transformative approach to personal knowledge management (PKM) that resonates deeply in our digital age.In our chat, we dive into how Tiago developed the concept of a "second brain"—a system designed to offload and organize our knowledge to enhance creativity, productivity, and clarity. This conversation explores how anyone can leverage this approach to foster a meaningful and organized way of capturing insights, ideas, and information.Key Discussion Points The origins of "Building a Second Brain" and Tiago's inspiration for creating it The role of PKM in managing our information-rich lives and its evolution since the analog era Tiago's "PARA" method for organization and why simplicity is powerful The role of intuition in capturing what resonates versus capturing everything How digital tools like Evernote and Readwise aid in building a resilient knowledge system The pitfalls of complex systems and why a simple, personalized approach works best The timelessness of knowledge management principles and their relevance in today's fast-paced world Tiago's insights help reshape how we view knowledge management, advocating for a personal, flexible, and intuitive approach. Whether you're new to PKM or a seasoned productivity enthusiast, this episode will offer valuable perspectives on creating a system that works with, not against, your unique mind. (Originally released November 2022)Links Worth Exploring Connect with Tiago : Website | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn Listen to Tiago's Podcast Get the Second Brain Quickstart Guide Buy Tiago's book Building a Second Brain Learn more about the Second Brain Summit Join TimeCrafting Trust Premium Related Conversation: Episode 456: Marie Poulin talks about Notion Related Blog Post: 3 Steps to Building Productivity Habits That Stick Thanks to all of the sponsors of this episode. You can find all of the sponsors you heard me mention on this episode on our Podcast Sponsors page.Want to support the podcast? Beyond checking out our sponsors, you can subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. You can subscribe on Spotify and also on Apple Podcasts. Not using either of those to get your podcasts? Just click on this link and then paste the podcast feed into your podcast app of choice.Thanks again for listening to A Productive Conversation. See you later.Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this Flashback Friday episode, I revisit my conversation with Tiago Forte, the visionary behind the "Building a Second Brain" methodology. With his book making waves, and after having attended the Second Brain Summit, it felt like the perfect time to re-share this impactful episode. Tiago has not only been a force in the productivity space but has pioneered a transformative approach to personal knowledge management (PKM) that resonates deeply in our digital age. In our chat, we dive into how Tiago developed the concept of a "second brain"—a system designed to offload and organize our knowledge to enhance creativity, productivity, and clarity. This conversation explores how anyone can leverage this approach to foster a meaningful and organized way of capturing insights, ideas, and information. Key Discussion Points The origins of "Building a Second Brain" and Tiago's inspiration for creating it The role of PKM in managing our information-rich lives and its evolution since the analog era Tiago's "PARA" method for organization and why simplicity is powerful The role of intuition in capturing what resonates versus capturing everything How digital tools like Evernote and Readwise aid in building a resilient knowledge system The pitfalls of complex systems and why a simple, personalized approach works best The timelessness of knowledge management principles and their relevance in today's fast-paced world Tiago's insights help reshape how we view knowledge management, advocating for a personal, flexible, and intuitive approach. Whether you're new to PKM or a seasoned productivity enthusiast, this episode will offer valuable perspectives on creating a system that works with, not against, your unique mind. (Originally released November 2022) Links Worth Exploring Connect with Tiago : Website | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter | LinkedIn Listen to Tiago's Podcast Get the Second Brain Quickstart Guide Buy Tiago's book Building a Second Brain Learn more about the Second Brain Summit Join TimeCrafting Trust Premium Related Conversation: Episode 456: Marie Poulin talks about Notion Related Blog Post: 3 Steps to Building Productivity Habits That Stick Thanks to all of the sponsors of this episode. You can find all of the sponsors you heard me mention on this episode on our Podcast Sponsors page. Want to support the podcast? Beyond checking out our sponsors, you can subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. You can subscribe on Spotify and also on Apple Podcasts. Not using either of those to get your podcasts? Just click on this link and then paste the podcast feed into your podcast app of choice. Thanks again for listening to A Productive Conversation. See you later. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Emil und Mathis sind allerbeste Freunde. Als Emil eines Tages einen Ring im Sandkasten findet, beschließen die Beiden zu heiraten. Also feiern sie unter dem großen Ahorn mit ihren Freunden eine richtige Hochzeit mit Girlanden, Konfetti und Schokoladenkuchen. Doch als Emil seinen Eltern stolz seinen Ring zeigt, sind die entsetzt: Ihr Sohn darf doch keinen Jungen heiraten! Zum Glück hat Emil eine Idee, wie sie vielleicht doch verheiratet bleiben können... Von Andrée und Lafrance, Marie Poulin.

Marie and Ben are a power couple. Together, they run Notion Mastery, an intense workshop for people who want to use Notion professionally and productively. In our conversation, we'll dive into platform risk, building a sustainable educational business, how to work together as a couple, and why social media distribution matters a lot to educational founders. Enjoy!00:00:00 What can we learn from permaculture? 00:04:55 How do you make it profitable?00:10:57 Building an info product on top of a shifting platform?00:13:28 How do you keep your courses relevant in the future?00:19:14 Perfectionism is a huge problem00:22:12 How do you speak to an audience that is so diverse?00:27:33 Are you a user or are you a builder? 00:29:52 Channels that have worked the best.00:33:55 Partnerships00:37:16 How to build a business with yout partner.00:43:08 What is needed to keep a long-term event like this running?00:46:34 The breathing businessMy new podcast project: Arvid & Tyler Catch Up / https://catchup.fmThe blog post: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/marie-poulin-amp-benjamin-borowski-digital-permaculture/The podcast episode: https://share.transistor.fm/s/faf48b60The video: https://youtu.be/Dr0Uty8heyo You'll find my weekly article on my blog: https://thebootstrappedfounder.comPodcast: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/podcastNewsletter: https://thebootstrappedfounder.com/newsletterMy book Zero to Sold: https://zerotosold.com/My book The Embedded Entrepreneur: https://embeddedentrepreneur.com/My course Find Your Following: https://findyourfollowing.comFind me on Twitter: https://twitter.com/arvidkahl/

I'm so excited for this week's episode with special guest  @MariePoulin  Marie teaches business owners to level up their digital systems, workflow, and knowledge management processes using Notion. She's the co-founder of Oki Doki http://weareokidoki.com and creator of Notion Mastery https://notionmastery.com, an online program and community that helps creators, entrepreneurs and small teams tame their work + life chaos by building life and business management systems with Notion. Diagnosed with ADHD at age 37, Marie is especially passionate about helping folks customize their workflows and workspaces to meet their unique needs and preferences. She believes that Notion is especially powerful for neurodivergent folks who have long struggled to adhere to traditional or rigid project management processes, and may need a little extra customization and flexibility. When she's not tinkering in Notion or doing live trainings, you can find her in the garden, working out, or cooking up some delicious vegetarian tacos. 0:02 Introduction to Marie Poulin and how she discovered Notion. 04:54 How she came to have a system that works for her brain. 06:26 The importance of compassionate productivity for those with ADHD. 11:15 What do you use it for on a daily basis? 15:36 How she's taught her team how to use the platform. 20:04 What are some of the apps that you use to run your business? 23:31 What's not there yet in the app. 26:46 How do you position yourself in the notion world and differentiating yourself? 33:12 Why you have to build your own brand as a name. 36:44 How different channels can express a different side of you. 41:48 Take on one use case at a time. Download Notion! https://notion.grsm.io/jenna-redfield Notion Foundations Online Course (with ADHD Life Tracker Notion Template included) https://notionfoundations.com Get My Notion Templates Content Calendar Template, ADHD Life Tracker, Business Tracker https://jennaredfield.com/notion-templates Join my Notion FB Groups! Marketing & Notion https://www.facebook.com/groups/marketingandnotion ADHD & Notion https://www.facebook.com/groups/adhdandnotion Shop my Amazon Storefront https://www.amazon.com/shop/twincitiescollective?ref=cm_sw_em_r_inf_own_twincitiescollective_dp_8RWpsBczfStVY Sign up for my best & favorite resources & Notion templates here •Notion Templates •Apps that work with Notion •Other Notion Resources •Favorite Notion Videos •Facebook Groups https://jennaredfield.com/notion-resources Listen to the Optimization Podcast https://podcast.jennaredfield.com LINKS

Marie Poulin is the creator of Notion Mastery and co-founder of Oki Doki. Diagnosed with ADHD, she believes that Notion is especially powerful for neurodivergent folks who have long struggled to adhere to traditional or rigid project management processes, and may need a little extra customization and flexibility. Because of this, she is passionate about helping others customize their workflows and workspaces to meet their unique needs and preferences. In this episode, Marie suggests how to use Notion to its best potential. We discuss the idea of journaling, the importance of systems, tracking your habits, and so much more. I can't believe it took me this long to get Marie to be on the show and it was a delightful conversation with a fellow Canadian!Links Worth Exploring Connect with Marie: Website | Twitter  Visit the Notion Mastery website Listen to Why You Need Atomic Habits with James Clear Related Conversation: Tiago Forte talks about Building a Second Brain Related Blog Post: Taking Journaling to Another Level Thanks to all of the sponsors of this episode. You can find all of the sponsors you heard me mention on this episode on our Podcast Sponsors page.Want to support the podcast? Beyond checking out our sponsors, you can subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Click on any of the links below to make that happen.Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | StitcherYou can also click on this link to paste the podcast feed into your podcast app of choice.Thanks again for listening to A Productive Conversation. See you later.Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Marie Poulin is the creator of Notion Mastery and co-founder of Oki Doki. Diagnosed with ADHD, she believes that Notion is especially powerful for neurodivergent folks who have long struggled to adhere to traditional or rigid project management processes, and may need a little extra customization and flexibility. Because of this, she is passionate about helping others customize their workflows and workspaces to meet their unique needs and preferences.  In this episode, Marie suggests how to use Notion to its best potential. We discuss the idea of journaling, the importance of systems, tracking your habits, and so much more. I can't believe it took me this long to get Marie to be on the show and it was a delightful conversation with a fellow Canadian! Links Worth Exploring Connect with Marie: Website | Twitter  Visit the Notion Mastery website Listen to Why You Need Atomic Habits with James Clear Related Conversation: Tiago Forte talks about Building a Second Brain Related Blog Post: Taking Journaling to Another Level Thanks to all of the sponsors of this episode. You can find all of the sponsors you heard me mention on this episode on our Podcast Sponsors page. Want to support the podcast? Beyond checking out our sponsors, you can subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Click on any of the links below to make that happen. Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Google Podcasts | Stitcher You can also click on this link to paste the podcast feed into your podcast app of choice. Thanks again for listening to A Productive Conversation. See you later.

If you've been listening for a while, you've heard this lesson 100 times: ship with what you have. Ship what you have. In other words, don't waste time looking for the perfect tool or process. Instead, ship quickly and iterate. And no one embodies this credo better than Marie Poulin. As one of the best Notion instructors out there, Marie has illustrated time and time again that shipping early and iterating leads to success. We chat about how she uses Notion from delivering her course, gets feedback earlier, and leverages YouTube to grow her audience and make sales…around 90% of her sales come from there! Plus, in Build Something More, We chat about my potential switch from Airtable to Notion. Top Takeaways: Delivering her Notion course in Notion allows her to launch her course quickly without fussing with so many tools and allows her students a quick win by forcing them to log into Notion.Feedback is SO important. Too many people are afraid of it, but it will ultimately save you time and make your product better in the long run.Ship and iterate. Launching something imperfect is better than not shipping. Show Notes: Marie PoulinMarie on TwitterMarie on InstagramMarie on LinkedinNotion Skincare ThreadYou Need to Form Good Writing Habits with Dickie BushBuilding a Second BrainJoin the Creator CrewSponsored by: Nexcess | Ahrefs | LearnDash

Building a business from the ground up as a creator is no easy feat. Your success depends on a number of different things including your leadership, your team, and your strategy. Often, creators start without a blueprint and fail before they soar.Consultant and Creator of the online course, Notion Mastery, Marie Poulin, always considered her work style to be chaotic. But whatever she thought she lacked, she looked for those capabilities in her team. Marie was recently diagnosed with ADHD, which gave her a newfound appreciation for her small team's ability to take initiative and stay organized. Like many creators, Marie has a stream of ideas and is always tempted to reinvent herself. It took a few awkward hires before building a stellar team and she freestyled her marketing efforts before committing to a strategy. She eventually found her flow and more importantly a funnel that helped her stay consistent in her outreach, grow her business, and diversify her content to unlock new possibilities.In this episode, Charli and Miguel talk with Marie about cultivating a supportive team as a creator with ADHD and optimizing her business strategy with ConvertKit.Key Takeaways [00:44] - Have you heard? [00:55] - Instagram scaling back its underperforming shop feature. [02:24] - Notion added a new feature called team spaces. [02:44] - Circle announced they are adding a course platform. [03:53] - Today's main topic: Cultivating a creative environment with Marie Poulin. [04:01] - Marie speaks about her course Notion Mastery. [04:37] - Roles that Marie decided to hire for in her business. [06:37] - How Marie cultivated her team that represents her vision. [13:39] - How the funnel worked for Marie. [18:14] - Marie's strategy to get people interested in her templates. [23:33] - How the audience responded when Marie diversified her content. [27:05] - Why leaning too hard on one service can be dangerous for business. [30:54] - Improvements Marie has in mind for her funnel. Quotes[09:50] - “Part of it is just recognizing talent in other people and noticing those gaps, and asking myself, can we work together? What are the things that matter to be similar and what are the things where I need to hire for the gap?” ~ @mariepoulin[12:45] - “I want people to feel like they can't believe that they get paid to do this work.” ~ @mariepoulin[23:22] - “I do encourage creators, don't be afraid to experiment with your wording, the phrasing, how you talk about what you do and see what forms actually convert better.” ~ @mariepoulinLinks Watch The Future Belongs to Creators on YouTube Marie Poulin Marie Poulin Twitter Marie Poulin Instagram Marie Poulin YouTube Notion Mastery Instagram Meta Notion Snapchat WeTalk Circle YouTube Salesforce Twitter Connect with our hosts Charli Prangley Miguel Pou Haley Janicek Stay in touch Apple Podcasts Spotify Twitter Facebook Instagram Every week we celebrate a win from a listener.Tell us about a recent launch, milestone or success (big or small!) right here and we might just shout you out in the next episode: https://convertk.it/listenershoutout. Start building your audience for free.With ConvertKit landing pages, you can build a beautiful page for your project in just a few minutes. Choose colors, add photos, build a custom opt-in form, and add your copy. All without writing any code! Check out landingpages.new to get started.

Guest:Monica Lim monicalim.co twitter.com/monicalimco Sponsor:Llama LifeLinks and show notes: Marie Poulin on YouTube Notion Mastery (affiliate) Le Pen by Marvy Uchida Hobonichi Techo Steam Deck ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

If there's one software question that invokes a near-universal groan among small business owners, it's “What do you use for a CRM?” Much of the existing software is clunky, expensive, or at worst—both. Today I'm chatting with Notion pro Alex Sherwood, a former Salesforce CRM manager, on how he built his own Customer Relationship Manager tool in Notion, and inspired me to do the same. Because even the acronym CRM gives me shudders, I renamed mine “K.I.T.”, Keep In Touch, in a nod to high school yearbook sign-offs. More About Alex: Alex Sherwood, also known as A Notioneer, is a full-time Notion Certified Consultant, ambassador, and creator, who helps Notion users structure their system with his 50+ templates, guides, and consulting. Previously, he managed a Salesforce CRM for more than 3 years that started with 9 users and scaled to more than 75.  He is the resident expert for our Free Time Operations Dashboard, a done-for-you guide to your entire business, helping all of our new Dashboarders get up-to-speed.  You can use the code PODCAST for a special deal on the Free Time Operations Dashboard (which includes two 1:1 sessions with Alex!)

Listen now and see what it's like to be the teacher and creator of notion mastery!

Full Description / Show Notes Marie talks about Oki Doki's primary product, Notion Mastery (2:38) Corey and Marie talk ADHD diagnosis and how it has impacted their lives and work (4:26) Marie and Corey discuss techniques they've developed for coping with ADHD (11:22) Corey and Marie talk about workarounds for people with ADHD who want to adopt something like Notion (16:13)  Marie discusses the importance of being excited about the tools you're employing (18:54) Corey and Marie talk about finding tools that work for you (26:43) Marie and Corey discuss the unique challenge of teaching skills versus dumping knowledge (30:35) About Marie PoulinMarie teaches business owners to level up their digital systems, workflow, and knowledge management processes using Notion.She's the co-founder of Oki Doki and creator of Notion Mastery, an online program and community that helps creators, entrepreneurs and small teams tame their work + life chaos by building life and business management systems with Notion.Diagnosed with ADHD at age 37, Marie is especially passionate about helping folks customize their workflows and workspaces to meet their unique needs and preferences.She believes that Notion is especially powerful for neurodivergent folks who have long struggled to adhere to traditional or rigid project management processes, and may need a little extra customization and flexibility.When she's not tinkering in Notion or doing live trainings, you can find her in the garden, playing video games, or cooking up some delicious vegetarian tacos.Links Referenced: Oki Doki: https://weareokidoki.com/ Personal website: https://mariepoulin.com Notion Mastery: https://notionmastery.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/mariepoulin TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Honeycomb. When production is running slow, it's hard to know where problems originate. Is it your application code, users, or the underlying systems? I've got five bucks on DNS, personally. Why scroll through endless dashboards while dealing with alert floods, going from tool to tool to tool that you employ, guessing at which puzzle pieces matter? Context switching and tool sprawl are slowly killing both your team and your business. You should care more about one of those than the other; which one is up to you. Drop the separate pillars and enter a world of getting one unified understanding of the one thing driving your business: production. With Honeycomb, you guess less and know more. Try it for free at honeycomb.io/screaminginthecloud. Observability: it's more than just hipster monitoring.Corey: DoorDash had a problem. As their cloud-native environment scaled and developers delivered new features, their monitoring system kept breaking down. In an organization where data is used to make better decisions about technology and about the business, losing observability means the entire company loses their competitive edge. With Chronosphere, DoorDash is no longer losing visibility into their applications suite. The key? Chronosphere is an open-source compatible, scalable, and reliable observability solution that gives the observability lead at DoorDash business, confidence, and peace of mind. Read the full success story at snark.cloud/chronosphere. that's snark.cloud slash C-H-R-O-N-O-S-P-H-E-R-E.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Today I'm joined by Marie Poulin, the CEO of Oki Doki. Marie, thank you for joining me.Marie: Thank you for having me. I'm excited.Corey: So, let's start at the very beginning. What does Oki Doki do? And for folks listening that is O-K-I D-O-K-I, so you might want to have to think about that if you're doing the Google approach of, “What is this thing?”Marie: Well, at the moment, the majority of our products and services are surrounded by helping people learn how to use Notion to manage their life and business. So, it's only a pivot that we took in the last couple of years, and so our signature program is a course called Notion Mastery. So, there's four full-time employees now and that's what we do. We design live trainings, we have a forum, we have a curriculum. It's all products and services related to Notion.Corey: That is an interesting pivot that you can wind up going through. Please tell me I'm not the first person to make the observation that you called it Oki Doki and you've turned yourself around.Marie: [laugh]. You are the first, Corey? [laugh].Corey: Oh, good. I am broken like that, so that's kind of awesome. So, you've been more or less doing—I don't know the best way to frame this, so my apologies if I'm getting it wrong—but the idea of well, what are you selling? Knowledge. You're selling an understanding of how to improve things, you're selling a better outcome.And it's easy to look at that and say, “Oh, you're selling education.” No, you're selling understanding. Education is the way that you get there because at least at the moment, you can't just jack gigabytes of data directly into people's head without going to prison for it. Or raising a whole boatload of VC money.Marie: [laugh]. I mean, you can also say you're kind of selling an outcome, right? You're selling this future version of who someone wants to be. And so, we talk a lot about—you know, on our sales page, we get a lot of compliments on our sales page, but just speaking to the scattered mind, you know, feeling like a shitshow, feeling like you don't really have all your data in one place. You know, it's learning how to improve your workflow at work but also in life as well.And so, a lot of our language speaks to the sort of future version of yourself. Like, stop feeling scattered, stop feeling stretched thin. Let's actually get it so that you turn things into a well-oiled machine. So, you could say we're selling a dream. [laugh].Corey: This is an interesting direction to take this conversation in because I don't normally talk about this. But why not; we'll give it a shot. It's been sufficiently long since the last time. Last year—you've been very public about this—you were diagnosed with ADHD. I periodically talk about the fact that I was diagnosed with it myself—back when it was called ADD—when I was five years old.So, growing up I always knew that there was something neurodivergent about me. And the lesson I took away from this, as someone growing up with a lot of the limitations—yes, there are advantages but at the time, all I saw were limitations—about, “Well, what is ADHD?” It's like, oh, okay. They sat down and explained it to me. And it's not what they said, but it was, “See, this is the medical reason why you suck.”And that was not the most constructive way of framing it. In adulthood, talking to other people who have been diagnosed with this, especially later in life. There's a—it's a spectrum disorder. It winds up impacting an awful lot of people differently, but the universal experience that I hear is, wait, you mean there's a reason that I am the way that I am? It's not that I'm lazy. It's not that I'm shitty at things. It's not that I'm—Marie: Yeah.Corey: —careless. And that is one of those things that just is transformative. I didn't realize at the time how fortunate I was to be diagnosed that early on because trying to try to figure out why am I getting fired all the time? Why do I get bored doing the same thing too many days in a row, so I start causing problems for other people? What is going on with this? Why do I have this incredible opposition to anything that remotely resembles authority, et cetera, et cetera?Not all of this might be ADHD traits, but here I am. And my only solution after, you know, deciding that I didn't really want to set a world record for number of times getting fired was, well, I guess I'll start my own company because that at least to get fired, it's going to take some work. You figured this out while you were already self-employed.Marie: Yes.Corey: What was that like?Marie: What was it like to find out that I finally had an answer or reason for, maybe, past behaviors? [laugh].Corey: Right. Because it's the simultaneous, “Oh, my God, there's a reason that I am like I am,” and then followed immediately by, “I still am the way that I am. Huh. Okay.” It feels like it helps things, but it also doesn't help things. But it does, and it comes back around. What was your experience with it?Marie: Yeah, it started because I was doing research to understand my sister better because she had been diagnosed with ADHD for a couple years. It made so much sense once I kind of understood and started researching a little bit more about it. And then, of course, doing my deep-dive research. I'm hearing all these traits that I'm like, “Oh. Wait, that does really sound like me.” The not being able to wake—Corey: What do you [mean 00:07:01]—Marie: —up in the morning—Corey: ADHD trait? Everyone does that. Wait.Marie: [laugh]. Yeah. When you said that enough times, you're like, “Oh, wait. Maybe this is not normal.” Or you don't really know what is—what is normal anyway, right? So, in doing that research, trying to connect with her, trying to understand her experience better, I just started learning about more and more of these traits.I also knew a shit ton of people in our course, had mentioned that they had ADHD in their intake form, and I was like, what is it about people that ADHD that are actually drawn to my YouTube videos or my way of explaining things? And I started to learn a little bit more; it's quite common for folks with ADHD to be drawn to one another, probably because of our communication styles, even the sort of mild interrupting, or kind of the way we banter together. There's different styles of communicating that I think often folks with ADHD are maybe drawn to one another or have an easier time understanding one another. So, listening to some of these symptoms, I was like, “Wait a second.” Because my sister and I are so different in the way our symptoms present.I thought, “Well, that's what ADHD looks like.” It's pure unbridled chaos and unfiltered. And I just had this idea of what it looked like because she was one of the few examples that I had. Meanwhile, I'm skipping grades, I'm in the gifted program, I'm off, you know, doing my own thing. It looked very different.I thought, “Oh, people with ADHD don't thrive in university,” or whatnot. So, I had a lot of assumptions that I had to unpack. And I think the one, sort of, I don't know, symptom that kind of twinged something in my brain was extreme difficulty getting up in the morning and even sort of waking up your brain in the morning. This has been a problem with jobs, it's been a problem was school, getting to school on time, getting to work on time. Similar to you, it has caused job loss, it has caused tension with partners. They don't understand, like, why can't you get out of bed and seize the day?And I just thought, “There's something weird going on there with my body.” But I can be, you know, wide awake at 7 p.m. and I'm, like, ready to go. And I can hyperfocus for days on end. So, just noticing some of these symptoms and kind of unpacking it a bit, I thought, “Okay, there's something to go a little deeper in here.”Corey: I have trouble getting up, but I'm almost never late. That one does not hit me in quite the same way. In fact—Marie: Well—Corey: —my first consulting clients, and I'd been building—I was independent for two weeks at that point, and I was in an in-person meeting in San Francisco and one day, I showed up 20 minutes late, and he just stared at me. “You're never late. What's the deal here?” And it's like, “Yeah, I had trouble getting up this morning.” That was a lie.I was able to tell him about three or four months later, that morning, I found out I was going to be a father. And that was an—you know, it turns out that I was going to be okay being late, but it was so early, you didn't want to tell anyone, yet. But it was—yeah, it's one of those things where that was more important than—Marie: Absolutely.Corey: —doing the work thing. But I still remember, yeah, I feel like I'm always about to be late but apparently my reputation is, I never am, so okay. I'll take it. That is a—again, it is a spectrum disorder. I also—Marie: Absolutely.Corey: —further there want to call out for viewers, listeners, et cetera, a couple of things. One, this is not mental health advice. If any of the stories we're telling resonate, talk to a qualified mental health professional. Secondly, I want to be clear as well here, Marie, that you and I both have significant advantages when it comes to dealing with these things. We both run our own companies, we can effectively restructure the way that we work in ways that are more accommodating for what we do.It turns out that in my employment days, that was never really a solution where, “Yeah, I decided I'm not going to wind up doing the on-call checklist every day. It doesn't resonate with me.”Marie: “Just not feeling like it.”Corey: “It's doing the same thing too many days in a row. And yeah, I'm not going to check the backups, either. What do you mean ‘I'm fired?'” yeah, it turns out, you're not able to—you're empowered to make those kinds of sweeping changes in the same way.Marie: Exactly.Corey: So, this is not advice for people. This is simply a pair of experience reports, the way I view it.Marie: Absolutely. I sort of feel like self-employment wasn't necessarily a choice, in a way. It just felt like that's the only way I'm going to be able to operate in this world. I need some more sense of control and say in how I structure my days, how I structure my work, being able to switch things up, being able to pivot quickly. I knew that I was going to need more control over that. So yeah, pretty unemployable over here. [laugh].Corey: So, once you wound up with the diagnosis, what happened next? What changes did you make that wound up resonating for you, things that were actionable? And, yeah, you've been very public about it as well. I want to highlight that. I'm not, for the most part.And part of that is because I internalized growing up that it was somehow a shameful thing that we don't talk about. And the other part of it, too, on some level, was I didn't want to turn it into a part of my brand identity, where, “Oh, yeah, Corey is very hard to describe.” So, people thrash around and look for labels to slap on me. ‘Shitposter' seems to have stuck rather well. Because as soon as people feel that they have a label for something, it becomes easier to classify and then dismiss it.It's aspects of my personality. It's who I am. I don't think of it as a disorder so much as it is part and parcel of who and what I am. And it turns out that being me is not—yet—a medically recognized diagnosis. So, I'm cautious to avoid the labeling aspect of it.But you have very publicly not, if not going for the label, you at least embraced it as an aspect of who you are, and you've been very vocal about your experiences and telling people how you have overcome aspects of this. It's admirable. I wish I did more of it, honestly.Marie: I think it's kind of essential, I think, in the nature of what we're teaching. Like, when we're teaching people to become more organized and we know that executive dysfunction is one of the signs or, you know, issues with ADHD, to me it sort of recontextualized why I became so freakin' obsessed with systems and organization: because I never felt organized. I always felt the sense of what is the stuff come so easy to other people? Why is it taking me so much longer? Why am I spending nights, evenings, taking courses about systems like I'm trying to understand how to give my life structure?And so, in a way, the way I have become organized was trial by fire, just teaching myself, learning, you know, getting coaches. Like, I literally had a systems coach to teach myself how to get my business organized. So, I had kind of obsessed over it, like a hyperfocus. And so, realizing that other people are struggling with this and there's a reason that people with ADHD are coming to the course seeking that sense of control. And so, learning that I had it, I was like, oh, this actually [laugh] does explain, in a way, my obsession with this or my curiosity about this, of, like, why does this come easy to some other people? Why do some people need to study this and learn this? Like, what is it about that?And so, I sort of felt like it would be doing a disservice if I didn't kind of name it and talk about it and say, well, this actually colors a lot of my opinions. This actually influences the way I approach organization or even productivity, not from a timing perspective, but from an energy management perspective. I didn't realize that was something that I'm doing. I'm not managing time, we're managing Marie's energy. And even my team is learning how to do that, too.So, I was like, “Oh, that actually makes a ton of sense.” And it also makes sense why some people won't resonate with this energy management thing or might think I'm going way too far down a rabbit hole on something and they're like, “Why can't people just do what they say?” Like, you don't understand, some of us need to trick ourselves into being productive. And this is how I've learned to do that. So, it was just kind of a funny recontextualizing or uncovering, oh, our brains operate very differently. And even within ADHD, people's brains operate differently, so how do we get people moving toward progress, but knowing that we kind of need different ways of doing that. So, it's just been kind of an interesting process.Corey: There's a fairly common experience report from folks who have ADHD that when they're kids, their memory is generally very good with a number of expressions of it, so we form our self-image in a lot of those times. And then for the rest of our lives, we tell ourselves the same lie, regardless of how many times it has proven to be a lie. And that lie is, “I don't need to write this down. I'll remember it.”Marie: Oh yes.Corey: “No, Corey, you will not remember it. You need to write it down. I promise.” And, for example, right now—I finally gave in and technology leapt ahead to the point where my entire life is run by Google Calendar—specifically three or four of them—that all route through Fantastical—which is the app I use—but it winds up grabbing my attention at the right time. It tells me what I need to do, when, and how, and it's wonderful.Because if it's not on my calendar, it does not happen.Marie: Yes.Corey: Like, I will forget our anniversary, my kids' birthdays, to pick my children up from school. We are talking about, if it is not on my calendar, it does not happen. That is the one system that has been forced on me that worked. Then we—let's talk about Notion for a minute because I looked at it briefly a few years ago, and it is one in the long, long, long list of tools or approaches or systems that I have played with and then discarded to act as basically an auxiliary brain pack. I used Evernote for a while and that sort of worked because I just would do different notes all the time and I'd wind up with 3000 of those things, and then the app gets bloaty and I move on to something else.For the last five years or so I've been using Drafts, a Mac slash iOS app, that only does text, which makes image management and attaching things kind of hard, but okay. And that's great, and now I have 5000 of those in my [back 00:16:25] folder, not categorized or organized anyway, so I focus instead on well, search for terms and hope I use the term I thought I did at the time. And so, every time I've tried to use something like Notion, it's yeah, this requires a way of thinking that I know I will get excited about if I look at it, and in a month, I'll be right back to where I am now. So, there's only so many times you go on the same ride before you know how it ends. How do y—like, that feels like a very common experience. How did you fix it?Marie: I think at the core though, you kind of have to be excited about the tool that you're using. And so, I don't think—Notion is not going to be an exciting fun tool for everyone. Some people are going to be like, “I don't want to frickin' build my productivity system. Are you kidding me? Like, just give me something that works out of the box.” Absolutely.But I think there's something about the visual components of Notion. Like, I am a designer; I went to design school. I think I'm—it's almost like something doesn't click until I see it in the way that I need to see it. And that's something I've learned about my brain is just, sometimes the same information can be presented to me, but if it's not in a visual way, or whether it's not spaced in the right way, my brain just kind of ignores it or it gets overwhelmed by it. And so, for me that visual aspect actually helps me learn.I'm priming my brain, I'm making my goals front and center. The fact that I can design it the way I need my brain to see it is part of its appeal to me. But I also recognize that's not something everyone gets excited about. They're not drawn to it. I'm all for using the tool that works the way that your brain is going to work.I get excited about making databases. I get excited about building glossaries of information to help me learn things. Like, for me, that's part of my learning and part of my process and it's just kind of what I'm used to, but I fully acknowledge, like, that stuff does not get everybody excited.[midroll 00:18:03]Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friend EnterpriseDB. EnterpriseDB has been powering enterprise applications with PostgreSQL for 15 years. And now EnterpriseDB has you covered wherever you deploy PostgreSQL on-premises, private cloud, and they just announced a fully-managed service on AWS and Azure called BigAnimal, all one word. Don't leave managing your database to your cloud vendor because they're too busy launching another half-dozen managed databases to focus on any one of them that they didn't build themselves. Instead, work with the experts over at EnterpriseDB. They can save you time and money, they can even help you migrate legacy applications—including Oracle—to the cloud. To learn more, try BigAnimal for free. Go to biganimal.com/snark, and tell them Corey sent you.Corey: There's something very key you're talking about here, which is the idea of having to be excited about what it is that you do. I look at the things that I do professionally, and if I didn't deeply enjoy them, they would not get done, and I would have pivoted long ago to something else. People wonder why—Marie: Absolutely.Corey: —I make fun of so many things in the tech ecosystem. The honest answer is because if I just tell the dry, boring version of it, I will get bored because it's a fairly boring field. Whereas instead, okay, someone releases a new thing. Great. How do I keep it interesting for me? How do I find a way to tell that story?How do I find a way to, in turn, build that into something that, in turn, I can start dragging in different directions and opening up to new ways of talking without going too far? It's always a razor's edge, it's always a bit of a mind puzzle, and it's always different. I love that. That's why I do it. It's not for the audience so much as it is for myself. Because if I'm not engaged, no one else is going to care what I have to say.Marie: Absolutely. And I think that's a huge part of ADHD as well which is that interest-based nervous system, right? It's like we have to [laugh] trick ourselves into finding the excitement in it or whatever that looks like for each of us. But just if I'm not motivated, if I'm not excited about it—writing email newsletters doesn't get me excited; I'm like, “Okay, do I need to hire someone to do this?” Or how can I find a way to do it, whether it's—if making a video is more fun or easy, great.How can I, you know, make content do double-duty in that way? So yeah, I'm always trying to find ways to incentivize myself to do the things that need to get done, even though they may not be the most exciting. But step one is actually run a business that is based on something that you love doing. Which not everyone, maybe, has the privilege to do, but I think everything about the way I've designed my business model and the services that we offer is, don't offer services you don't really want to offer. Don't make products that you don't want to maintain, you're not excited about. So, it's definitely a core part of kind of how we design our whole business model.Corey: For me, a big part of it has always been just trying to make sure that I'm doing the things that engage me. And this is where that whole idea of being in a very privileged position enters into it. Take this podcast slash video right now, as a terrific example. I'm having this conversation, I have an entire system when I wind up sending a link to someone, it fires off Calendly, that hides webhooks and gets a whole bunch of other things set up. I show up, we have a conversation before the show to figure out just this is the general ebb and flow of the show. Here's the generalized topics we want to talk about. Let's dive in.And we finish the recording session. Great, I wind up closing the window and that's the last time I generally think about it. Because everything else has been automated. If anything other than me having this conversation with you does not need to be me, I there is no differentiated value in me being the person that does the audio engineering. It turns out, I can pay people who are world's better than I am at that, who actually enjoy it as opposed to viewing it as unnecessary chore, and I can do things that I find more appealing, like shitposting about a $1.108 trillion—Marie: Exactly.Corey: Company. It comes down to find the thing, the differentiation point, and find ways to make sure you don't have to do the other parts of it. But that is not a path that's available to everyone in every context. And again, I'm talking about this in a professional sense. I still have to do a whole bunch of stuff as I go through the course of my life that is not differentiated, but I can't very well hire someone to get me dressed in the morning. Well, I can but I feel like that becomes a little bit out of the scope of the lived human experience most of the [crosstalk 00:22:29].Marie: [laugh]. Absolutely. I feel like that's one thing I sort of regret not doing earlier is hiring someone to work with. So, the very first hire that I made was my chief of operations, and oh my gosh, the things that she took on that I used to do that I'm like, how on earth did I do that before? Because now that you do that, and you do it way faster, I just got to wonder, like, how the heck did I ever convince myself to do those activities?I don't want to do touch spreadsheets, I don't want to [laugh] deal with that stuff. I don't want to, you know, email reminders, or whatever it is. There's so many activities that she handles that I just… I would be happy to never touch again. And so, I sort of wish I had explored that earlier, but I was in that lone wolf, like, I got this. I'm going to run my own business solo forever.And, you know, I just sort of thought it's difficult to work with me or because of the way that I work, I don't know how to delegate. Like, it's all in your head. I just didn't really know how to do that. So, that process, I think, takes a while. That first hire when you're going from solo person to okay, now we're two; how do we work together? Okay, who else can we hire? What other activities can I get other people to do? So, that's been a process, for sure.Corey: Mike Julian, my business partner who you know, is a very process-driven person. He is very organized. His love language is Microsoft Excel, as I frequently tease him with. And one of the—not the only factor by a landslide, but one of the big early factors of what would—okay, I know what I'd do. What would Mike do here?Part of it is the never-ending litany of mail I get from the state around things like taxes, business registration, the rest. And normally my response when I get those, is I look at it, and it's like, “Welp, I'm going to fucking prison. That's the end of it. The end.” Because it's not that I don't have the money to pay my taxes, I assure you. What, I don't have it—because I—financial planning is kind of part and parcel of how we think about cloud economics.But no, it's the fact that I'm not going to sit there, fill out the form, put a stamp on it—or God forbid, fax it somewhere—and the rest. It's not the paying of the taxes that bothers me it is the paperwork and the process and the heavy lift associated with getting the executive function necessary to do it. So, it never gets done and deadlines slide by. And Mike was good at that for a time, and then he took the more reasonable approach about this of, “Huh. Seems to me like a lot of this stuff is not differentiated value that I need to be doing either.”So, we have a CFO who handles a lot of that stuff now and other operational folks. And it turns out that yeah, wow, there's a lot—I can—the quality of what I put out is a lot better because I get to focus on things instead of having to deal with the ebb and flow minutia of running payroll myself every week.Marie: Oh, yeah. All of that is very relatable. And this is why I can't do paper in the office. I think this is why I just moved my entire brain online. It's like if there's paper, stamps, anything related to having to go [laugh] to a post office to mail something. I think I still have the stack of thank you cards from our wedding from, you know, five years ago. So, yeah. [laugh].Corey: That you haven't sent out yet. Of course.Marie: Yes, exactly.Corey: Exact same—sorry, people 13—11 years ago, whenever it was.Marie: I'm so sorry.Corey: Yeah, one of these years. Yeah, and see, that's exactly how I treat things like Drafts or Notion, if I were to use it, or something else is great, it's still going to be the digital equivalent of a giant pile of paper. The thing is that computers can search through the contents of that paper a hell of a lot faster than I can, even with my own, at times, uncanny reading speed. There's some value to that. So, understanding how the systems work and having them bend to accommodate you, rather than trying to fool yourself in half to work within the confines of an existing system, that seems to be the direction that you're taking Notion in, specifically in the context of it is not prescriptive.And, on some level, that's kind of the problem I have with it. Whenever I try the getting started for us, it's, “Great, you can build your own system.” It's like, “Isn't that your job? What am I missing here?” Because the scariest thing I ever see when it's time for you to write a blog post or whatnot is an empty editor. It's, where do I get started? Where's the rest?I even built a template that I wind up sometimes using text expander to autofill, that gets me started. And it's just get—once I get started, it's great. It's hard to get me started; it's hard to get me to stop, in case no one has been aware of that. But it's been understanding how I work and how that integrates with it. I'm curious, given that you do talk to people who are trying to build these systems for a living for themselves? How common is my perspective on this? Am I out there completely, this unique, beautiful Snowflake? Is it yeah, that's basically everyone? Or somewhere in between?Marie: Oh, I definitely don't think you're alone with that. And again, I often will dissuade people from taking on Notion. I'm like, “Oh, if you're just looking for a note-taker, or you're just looking for something else,” or, “Your tools are already working for you, great. Keep using them.” So, I think it's quite common. I don't think Notion is the right tool for everyone.I think it's great for very visual people like myself, people that it matters how you are seeing your information, and how much information you're seeing, and you want more control over that, that's great. For me, I like the integration. I know that as soon as I'm bouncing around to different tools, like, I just already feel kind of scattered, so I was like, how can I pull everything that I need into these, sort of, singular dashboards. So, my approach is very dashboard-focused. Okay, Marie is going into content mode, it's time to write a blog. Go to the content hub. On the content hub is your list of most recent ideas, your templates for how to write a blog post. There's resources for creating video. It's already there for me; I'm not having to start from scratch like you said.But again, it took time to build that up for myself. So, I think you're not alone, and I think some people get excited about that building process; other people get irritated by it, and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. It's just how do our brains work? Know thyself. And, yeah, I've sort of—I think also in a way, something that's a little different, maybe, about the way that I use Notion is I think of it as a personal development tool.It is a tool for making me better in different ways. It's for exploring my interests, it's for feeding my curiosity, it's for looking at change over time. I track my feelings every day. I've been journaling for 1300 days in a row, which is probably the only thing I've done consistently in my life [laugh] in the last couple of years. But now I can look and I can see trends over time in a really beautiful and visual way. And I just, to me, it's like a curiosity tool, to see, like, where am I going? Where have I been? What do I want more of?Corey: I need to look into this a bit more because my idea of a well-designed user interface is—I'm very opinionated on this—but it comes down to the idea of where do you use nouns versus verbs in command-line arguments to things you're running in the terminal. Because I was a grumpy Unix sysadmin for the first part of my career—because there's no other kind of Unix sysadmin—and going down that path was great. Okay, everything I'm interacting with is basically a text file piped together to do different things. And it took a while for me to realize, you know, maybe—just spitballing here—there's a better way to convey information than a wall of text, sometimes. Blasphemy.And no, no, it turns out that just because it's hard using the tools I'm used to doesn't mean that's the best way to convey information. And even now, these days, I'm spending more time getting the color theme and the font choices and typeface choices of what I'm doing in the terminal to represent something that's a bit more aesthetically pleasing. Does it actually account for anything? I don't know, but it feels better and there's almost a Feng Shui element of it. Similar to work in a—Marie: Yes.Corey: Clean office versus a messy one.Marie: A hundred percent. I think that's kind of how I think of an approach. I am much more likely to get the things done. If, when I come in and I open Notion, it's like, “Here's what's on today, Marie.” And it's like speaking nicely to me, there's little positive messages, there's beautiful imagery.It just makes me feel good when I'm starting my day. And knowing that how I feel is going to very much influence what I'm likely to accomplish in the day, again, I'm constantly tricking myself into getting [laugh] more excited and amped up about what's on the schedule for the day. So, I really liked that about it. It feels beautiful to me.Corey: I'm going to have to take another look at it at some point. I think that there's a lot of interesting directions to go into on this. I also have the privilege of having known you for a little while, back when you were more or less just getting started. One of the things that you said at the time that absolutely resonated with me was the idea of, wait, you mean build a business around teaching people how to use Notion? Like an info product or a training approach?And a lot of your concerns are the ones that I've harbored for a while, too, which is the idea of there's a proliferation of info products in technical and other spaces, and an awful lot of them—without naming any names or talking in any particular direction—are not the highest quality. People are building these courses while learning the thing themselves. And when they tell stories about it, it's all about, “And this is how I'm making money quickly.” I don't find that admirable; I don't necessarily want to learn how to do a thing from someone who does not have themselves at least a decent understanding themselves of what they're working on so they can address questions that go a bit off into the weeds. And so mu—again, knowing how to do a thing and knowing how to teach a thing are orthogonal concepts. And very often a lot of these info products are being created by people who don't really know how to do either, as best I can tell.Marie: Yes. So, I think you've nailed a point to that, knowing a thing deeply and then knowing how to teach that thing really well are two totally different skills. And I definitely bumped up against that myself. I'm like, I know, Notion inside and out. Like, you know, name something, I can make it, I can optimize it, I can, you know, build a system out of thin air really fast, no problem. I'm a problem solver that way.But to teach someone else how to do that requires very different skills. And I knew [laugh] as I was starting to teach people stuff, I'm like, “You could do this. You could do that.” And I'm like kind of bouncing around and I'm all over the place because I'm so excited about the possibilities. But wait a second.Beginners that are just learning how to use Notion don't need to know every frickin' possible way that you could use it. So, knowing that instructional design, curriculum design is a whole other skill, and I care about student results, it's like, this is a gap that I have, and I want to be an excellent teacher. It matters to me. I actually do want to become a better teacher. I want to have higher quality YouTube videos, I want to make sure that I'm not losing people along the way.I don't just care about making a shit ton of money with an info product; I care about peoples' experience and kind of having that, I don't know, that prestige element. Like, that's something that does matter in terms of producing quality products. So, I hired experts to help me do that because again, it's a not necessarily a strength of mine. So, I think I hired three different people in the course of six months to various consultants and people who understand learning design and that sort of thing. And I think that's something a lot of info product creators. They think of it as just packaging a blog and selling it, right?It's different. When you're teaching a course, for example, your formatting matters, how you display information matters, how you design activities matters. What separates a course from a passive income product or blog, right? We need to think about those things, and I think a lot of people are just like, what's the quickest, you know, buck that I can make on these products and just kind of turn them out. And I don't think every course creator has maybe done the extra legwork to really understand what makes students actually follow through and complete a course. It's hard. It's really hard.Corey: And these are also very different products. There's what you are teaching, which is here's how to contextualize these things and how to build a system around it. There's another offering out there that would be something that would also be very compelling from my perspective where, cool, I appreciate the understanding and the deep systems design approach that goes into this. Can I just give you a brain dump of all the problems that I have with this? You go away and build a system that accounts for all of that.And again, it's the outcome that I care about. There's this belief that oh we want consultants to build by the hour and work hard. No. I don't care. If you listen to this, nod and do the great customer service thing, the Zoom call, and just like, “Okay, that's template number three with three one-line changes. Done. Now, we're going to sit on it for a week so it looks hard.”Which we've all got that as consultants in the early days. And then you turn that around because it's the outcome that I really care about. But that's a different business, that is a different revenue model, that is different—Marie: Yes.Corey: That is not nearly so much a one-to-many, like an info product. That is a one-to-one or one-to-few.Marie: And I did that for the whole first year that the course was being developed and was out there. I was simultaneously consulting with people one-on-one all the time, with teams, with individuals. So, I'm learning about what are all those common challenges that keep popping up over and over again? What are the unique challenges? What are the common ones?And in my experience, what I bumped up against is people think they want to just pay someone to solve that, but then when you give someone a very fleshed out, organized system that they didn't participate in the building, it's a lot harder to get somebody to use it, to plug into a ready-made system. So, in our experience, there's a sort of back and forth. It has to happen in tandem; we do it over time. And you know, in my partner's case, Ben does consulting with companies as well, so he'll meet with them on a weekly basis and working with the different members of the team. So, there is some element of we built you a thing. Let's have you use it, notice where there's gaps, friction, whatever, because it's not a one-and-done process.It's not like, “You gave me all the info. We're good to go.” It's not until people are using it that you're like, “Oh, okay, that's close, but I'm finding myself doing this, or avoiding this, or clicking around too much.” And so, to me, it's a really organic process. But that's not something that I'm as keen to do. And maybe it's because I did it for, like, two years and kind of burnt out on it. I'm like, “I'm done. Like, I'd rather teach folks to do it themselves.” But so a partner does the consulting; I'm doing more of the teaching.Corey: That's what happened to an awful lot of our consulting work here at The Duckbill Group where it was exciting and fun for me for years, and at some point it turned into, I am interested in teaching how to do this a little bit more and systematizing it because I'm starting to get bored with aspects of it. And I was thinking, “Well, do I build a course?” It's, “Well, no. As it turns out that if you have the right starting point, I can hire people who I can teach how to do AWS bill analysis if they have the right starting point.” And it turns out that a lot of those people—read as all of them—are going to be way better at doing the systemic deep-dive across the board, rather than just finding the things that they find personally interesting and significant, and then, “Well, there you go. I did a consulting engagement.” And the output is basically three bullet points scrawled on the back of an envelope.Yeah, turns out that that's not quite the level of professionalism clients expect. Great, so our product is better, we're getting better insight into it, and I get to scratch my itch of teaching people how to do things internally without becoming a critical path blocker.Marie: Yeah, absolutely.Corey: I mean, I have shitposting to get back to. Come on.Marie: Yeah exactly. [laugh]. The important things. Love it.Corey: I really want to thank you for taking so much time to speak with me about all of these things. If people want to learn more—Marie: Absolutely.Corey: —where's the best place to find you?Marie: Yeah, you can find me at mariepoulin.com is where my personal blog, or weareokidoki.com, or notionmastery.com. You can also catch me on Twitter.Corey: And we will put links to—Marie: That's where I am most active. Yeah.Corey: Oh, of course. And all the links wind up going into the [show notes 00:37:42], as always. Thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.Marie: Thanks for having me, Corey. It was awesome.Corey: Marie Poulin, CEO of Oki Doki. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn, and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice—and if it's on the YouTubes smash the like and subscribe buttons—whereas if you've hated this podcast episode, great, same thing, five-star review on whatever platform, smash the two buttons, but also leave an insulting comment and then turn that comment into an info product that you wind up selling to a whole bunch of people primarily to boost your own Twitter threads about how successful you are as a creator.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

The founder of Notion Mastery, Marie Poulin, knew she had caught lightning in a bottle once she started to get messages from people telling her they would pay real money if she released a course teaching Notion.There were a number of challenges to work through before and after that point. Growing a dedicated audience while already running a business, getting through the first iterations of the course and figuring out what people needed and the best way to teach them, figuring out what to charge for the content, and hiring new people as the business grows.Each of these topics comes with a lot of nuance, like how do you incentivize people to actually leave you feedback instead of just never showing up again? How would you go about growing an audience? How do you know when to hire someone? And how would you make sure that they're a good fit?All these questions and more are answered in this episode of the Badass Courses podcast. Hear from Marie Poulin how she successfully started the business and used constant iteration through learner feedback to design the course!Links and SocialsTwitter - Marie PoulinYoutube - Marie PoulinWebsite - Marie PoulinNotion Mastery

Emil und Mathis sind allerbeste Freunde. Als Emil eines Tages einen Ring im Sandkasten findet, beschließen die Beiden zu heiraten. Also feiern sie unter dem großen Ahorn mit ihren Freunden eine richtige Hochzeit mit Girlanden, Konfetti und Schokoladenkuchen. Doch als Emil seinen Eltern stolz seinen Ring zeigt, sind die entsetzt: Ihr Sohn darf doch keinen Jungen heiraten! Zum Glück hat Emil eine Idee, wie sie vielleicht doch verheiratet bleiben können... Von Andrée und Lafrance, Marie Poulin.

Marie Poulin drops by to talk about notionmastery.com - a topic whose demand dragged her along to create a business around teaching Notion at a premium level! Marie and her husband are killing it - listen to hear how!Marie Poulin(Twitter)Notion MasterChris Fidao (Twitter)Chipper CI - Chris's thing

Over the next several episodes, I'm going to be interviewing a series of online business owners about their business models, how their businesses make money, their biggest expenses, how much time their businesses take to run, how big or small their teams are and more.Today I'm talking to Marie Poulin, creator of Notion Mastery, her hybrid online course that mixes self-paced study with office hours and community support.Marie helps solopreneurs and small teams streamline their digital systems, processes, and workflows, so they can spend more time on what matters.Notion Mastery is an online course and community that helps folks use Notion to live and work better.Listen to the full episode to hear:Why having live calls and office hours was instrumental to developing Notion MasteryHow a hybrid course plays to Marie's strengths, personality and how she wants to show up in her businessWhy leveraging interest in an existing tool like Notion or YouTube is a great beginner strategy for developing coursesThe real costs in money and time of running a hybrid course and communityLearn more about Marie Poulin:Notion MasteryYouTubeTwitter: @MariePoulinLearn more about Gillian:Startup SocietyGet on the waitlist for VALIDATEProfit Planning ChallengeGet in touch!

Notion expert Marie Poulin shares some of the insight she's found by gathering her own data. Marie uses Notion but regularly encourages folks to use whatever works for them, including a piece of paper.References: Notion Mastery Notion Permaculture Connect with Marie: Twitter YouTube Instagram Her website Notion Mastery A full transcript and show notes are available at futureproofskillslab.com/podcast.

Topics Discussed: Notion Mastery introduction Building a self-paced course community Scaling an Online Course  Coming up with course pricing Leveraging feedback Building a course staff The Notion Mastery Tech Stack Twitter: https://twitter.com/mariepoulinRelevant links:Reshaping Education Podcast Keep up with us:Ish Baid, Founder & CEO of VirtuallyWill Mannon, Course Director of Forte Academy

Marie Poulin is the creator of Notion Mastery. Marie helps ambitious business owners design their life and business systems, so they can make space for growth. Notion is one of her favorite tools for making your goals visible and taking action on your ideas, and she loves showing folks how to use it to Supercharge their productivity. Marie educates people on how to use Notion on YouTube and through Notion Mastery, her 12-month, semi-guided learning journey. She provides video instruction and all kinds of templates as a starting point, which she pairs with weekly live office hours, an online community, live demos, coaching hot seats, and even some additional workshops. In this episode, we talk about Marie's transition from agency job to full-time freelance, her discovery of online education, her foray into creating a software product, the origins of Notion Mastery, and why her inconsistency hasn't slowed her down one bit. Learn more about Notion Mastery Enroll in Notion Mastery (affiliate) Follow Marie Poulin on Twitter Follow Marie Poulin on Youtube Full transcript and show notes *** IF YOU LOVE CREATIVE ELEMENTS Leave me a voicemail Subscribe to weekly episode emails Leave a review on Apple Podcasts Buy Me A Coffee *** ABOUT JAY CLOUSE Learn more about me Subscribe to my newsletter, Creative Companion Connect with me on Twitter Connect with me on Instagram Join #Tweet100 *** SPONSORS Sign up for ButcherBox and get a free 10-16 lb turkey Get a free 45-day extended trial of Canva Pro Get a free month of Blinkist Premium *** FOR PODCASTERS Enroll in my podcasting workshop Enroll in my course on podcasting, Podcast Like The Pros Learn more about Podpage *** PODGLOMERATE NETWORK This show is a part of the Podglomerate network, a company that produces, distributes, and monetizes podcasts. We encourage you to visit the website and sign up for our newsletter for more information about our shows, launches, and events. For more information on how The Podglomerate treats data, please see our Privacy Policy.  Since you're listening to Creative Elements, we'd like to suggest you also try other Podglomerate shows surrounding entrepreneurship, business, and careers like Rocketship.fm and Freelance to Founder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

In this episode of “The Art of Selling Online Courses: Winning Strategies & Secret Hacks From Top Performers”, Marie is sharing her journey of becoming one of the biggest experts in Notion.In This Video We'll Talk About:Turning templates into upsells that your audience will loveSwitching from 1-on-1 consultations to creating online coursesMoney mindset changes related to the business growthDesigning a business that accommodates Marie's lifestyleHiring people – from Virtual Assistants to Managers

Today I'm walking you through my systems for capturing ideas and organizing them, as part of a multi-part series on my favorite tool for organizing life and work: Notion.

Listen now and see what it's like to be the Teacher and Creator of Notion Mastery!

If you enjoy the podcast, would please consider leaving a short review. It takes less than 60 seconds and it really makes a difference. Sign up for Danny's email newsletter ("My Organized Mess") at https://dannyhatcher.com/newsletter/ for details on the upcoming guest. References: https://dannyhatcher.com/periodizing-productivity-2-marie-poulin-talks-pee/ Follow Danny: YouTube Twitter Website Instagram LinkedIn

 Pre-order Michele's book on talking to customers! https://deployempathy.com/order Marie's course, Notion Mastery: https://notionmastery.com/ Marie's Twitter: https://twitter.com/mariepoulin Marie's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKvnOhqTeEgdNt1aJB5mVng Marie's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mariepoulin/  Michele Hansen  00:00Welcome back to Software Social. This episode is sponsored by Approximated. If you need to connect custom user domains to your app, Approximated can help. It can route any domain or subdomain to any application, all easily managed with a simple API or web dashboard. You can have unlimited connected domains automatically secured with SSL certificates for one flat rate. Website builders, communities and marketplaces all happily use Approximated every day to manage thousands of custom domains for their users. And it was built by an indie founder just like you, so every support request is handled by a developer who will personally help you out. Head over to Approximated.app today and mention Software Social when you sign up to get an extra month for free.  Michele Hansen Hey, welcome back to Software Social. We have another guest with us this week. I am so excited to have my friend, Marie Poulin, here today. She is the creator of Notion Mastery, which is this amazing Notion course that has over 1200 students, averaging $45,000 MRR. Pretty amazing business that she has built up. Welcome to Software Social, Marie. Marie Poulin  01:18Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat.  Michele Hansen  01:21So um, people listening may know you from all of your YouTube videos and courses with Notion, which have been crazy successful, and only, only, since October 2019, since you launched it, but I actually want to talk about something else. So you had another business, a course business called Doki, and actually, the last time I spoke, like, like, like, actually spoke with you like, internet friend is so funny. Like, I feel like I talk to you all the time, but actually, like talk to you, talk to you, was you and your husband, Ben, were thinking about what to do with Doki and whether you should sell it or shut it down. Marie Poulin  02:15Yes, and you very kindly reached out with some suggestions on how we might handle that. And it, it sort of wasn't, I don't want to say it wasn't our passion anymore, but yeah, you know, Ben got offered a full time gig. So for anybody listening, my husband and I teamed up back in 2014 to, to run our company together. We built a software and we ran it for I mean, five-ish years or so, and I think neither one of us was, it was definitely our first software project. And it was that build a giant software project that does all of the things and, you know, kind of wishing that we had done something smaller when we learned about the whole software building all of the different pieces. And so when we first went to MicroCon, that was, it was just so eye opening how many things we had done wrong, and it was it was a really wonderful learning experience. But I think it kind of showed us that there were parts of that, that just, I don't know that either of us was super excited to go 100% all in on it. I liked the working with people side of online courses and actually shipping and working on their websites, and just all of, all the other pieces of it other than the software. And so the burden was really on Ben to build all the features and do customer support, and, you know, he was pretty much like the solo founder handling all of those parts of the software, and I was handling more of the consulting side of it. And it was a huge burden on him. It was huge. And so when he got offered a full time job, it was a chance for him to step into more of a leadership role, be challenged, be working with other people, and it just, he really flourished. And I think it was something he was missing. Like, when you're a solo founder, you're just, you know, you're wearing every single hat. You're making all the decisions. And if you're bumping up against stuff you've never seen, it's pretty tough. It's a tough life to be, to be solo founder. So I was really encouraging him to, to kind of explore this new venture, but it sort of meant that Doki got left in the dust a little bit. And so we kind of took our foot off the gas, and just in this year in January 2021 we decided what if we just kind of shut down signups and, and just kind of let it do its thing and just kind of keep supporting the clients that were still using it, more like our consulting clients and not really market at widely. And so we did and I was like, how do you feel about this? And he's like, oh, I feel I feel so relieved. And I think that was really important that it didn't feel sad. It didn't feel like oh no, we're shutting this thing down. Like he felt like no, this is a chapter of my life that was great. And now it's over. So it's been a journey. Michele Hansen  04:54So, I mean on, you know, on this podcast, you know, we talk a lot about like, getting a SaaS off of the ground, or I guess, in my case now, like, getting an info product off the ground, and then also running those companies. But there's this other phase of it, which is exiting, and sometimes exiting means selling a company, or, you know, being acquihired by someone, or it means shutting it down. And I'm wondering if you can kind of talk through that a little bit about how you guys decided to sunset it, rather than sell it. Marie Poulin  05:37Yeah, because we had gone through this conversation back and forth. And we even had, you know, several people who had made offers to buy, and it felt actually pretty close, like, that was something we were really seriously considering. And again, you're, it was just really, really valuable to get your, your insights on that, and to have somebody that, you know, not attached to it just kind of as an outsider giving us perspective on that. And so we, we had some meetings, and we definitely considered it, and I think the burden of what would have needed to happen to be able to make that handoff happen in a way, such that it could actually be successful for those who are taking it over, felt too big for Ben. I think it was, again, given that his attention was elsewhere, it there was just such a cognitive load associated with all of that cleanup work, and just, just kind of the whole process of that transition. And it's possible that it may not have actually been that much work. It's kind of hard to know, in hindsight, but I think the anticipation of that, and just, you know, when Ben does something, he wants to do it properly, and he wouldn't have felt good, I think to just kind of pass it off as is knowing how much legacy work needed to be rebuilt. And he, he just didn't feel comfortable with it. And I was like, you know, I don't know this stuff as well as you do. And if you feel really confident and happy to just kind of say, you know, what, we're totally cool to just, like, the, the amount just kind of doesn't match up with, with what it would be worth to do that work, and how much extra time it would have taken him outside of his full time job. It just, it didn't feel like it was quite worth it to do that investment of the work. So that was a decision I sort of felt it was kind of up to them to make as a burden was really on him, and I think he felt a huge relief, honestly, even just like taking the signup off of the site. And just realizing, like, our business has gone in such a different direction, and it's okay to say goodbye to this chapter, and so it felt good. And I think that was really important is can we stand behind this decision? Does it feel good? Does it release a certain, you know, energetic burden, and it really did, and so that we felt good at the end of the day, for us that, that was the right decision. Michele Hansen  07:44I'm struck by how much respect I hear in that. You know, there's the respect that you have for Ben, that this was something that he knew really well and what like, had, you know, that, that, that transition work would have been on on him and your respect for that. And then his and also sort of both of your respect for your emotions, and recognizing those as valid and worth prioritizing, and, because I think some people say, oh, well, I'll, you know, get a lot of money from this. So you know, screw my feelings, like, you know, just have to suck it up, suck it up and do it. Like, I mean, the the market for even small SaaS companies like Doki, like, like, just for content, like, how much was Doki, like, making when you decided to shut it down? I mean, Ben would certainly have a better sense of the numbers at that point that we made the decision. I mean, certainly the pandemic did have a big impact. And we'd already kind of stopped doing any new feature development, even maybe the year before the pandemic hit. So I would say, you know, at its height, maybe $50,000 in a year. So we had some months that were like 4k, maybe 5k, and so by the time we shut it down, it was like 2500 to 2000. Like, nothing to sneeze at in terms of it was very low maintenance and, you know, covers our mortgage and expensive, like, that's awesome. But there is that mental load that's required there that you're kind of always thinking about that uptime, or you're thinking about how long, how long can we go not adding any features and not doing anything to really kind of improve or support or even do any marketing. So in some ways, it sort of felt like there was a time limit on how long we could get away with just, just letting it kind of simmer in the, in the background and not give it its full attention, and so it didn't feel good in that way that it it did have this sort of energetic burdensome feeling, and so respect is is absolutely huge. Like, you know, both Ben and I are incredibly autonomous. Like, we have always kind of worked almost like two separate founders under the same brand umbrella. So even when we partnered up, we still very much had our own projects, our own clients, and there's a lot of trust there with like, Ben and I are very different people, very different types of projects, very different things that light us up. And so, you know, Ben has higher anxiety than I do, and when we first launched Doki, I know the feeling of always being on and having to answer those customer support questions, and I think it takes a bigger toll on him than, than it might other people. And so that has to be factored in, like, what's the point of building these, like, software and these businesses that support our lives when it's just adding to our daily stress? Like, that's, that's not the point, right? So I think for both of us, it does really matter. Like, what kind of life are we building for ourselves? And if, are we building something that just feels like another job, but we just kind of built our own jail? Like, that's, that's not really fun. So I think we have a lot of understanding and respect for, yeah, what kind of life are we building, and ideally reducing stress and not adding to it so that, that was really important to me that he felt really good about that enclosure and didn't feel like oh, this was a failure, or, you know, it didn't go the way we wanted. For me, I'm like, holy crap, we learned an epic crap ton. You know, we just, it was just absolute, you know, entrepreneurship school on steroids. Like, you know, you just learned so many different parts from your customer research and the technical capacity and all the decisions that once you've done it once, and then it's almost too late, like, the wheels are in motion, and you've already, there's already, like, technical debt as soon as you started. It's a wonderful learning opportunity, and part of us wishes we'd tried it on something small, but my gosh, the learning has been incredible. So I don't, I don't regret any of it, and I don't think he does, either. It's the reason he has the job that he does now. It, he's, he's just like, both of us, I think are just highly skilled people that are going to adapt whatever happens like okay, cool. That was an awesome chapter. Next. What's next, you know.  You guys are incredibly emotionally intelligent and atuned, and, I mean, yeah, I mean, that you take that kind of focus is really, I think, remarkable and really commendable. And, you know, so after we had we had talked last fall, I guess, you guys were still kind of, you were unclear on whether you were going to shut it down or you were going to sell it, and I just tweeted out if anybody was interested in buying a SaaS, I think I said it had like 2.4k MRR. And I got so many messages after that, but I actually just got another one last week, and I got one, like, three months ago, like, the market for really, like really tiny SaaS companies is just, just bonkers. And I think it's so amazing that you prioritized how, like, not just the money, but how you felt about it. Now, of course that the notion courses making 45,000 a month and Ben has a full time job, like, that sort of makes it a little bit easier to make decisions that are not just guided by the financials, I imagine. Marie Poulin  13:16Definitely. That's true. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure that, that was a part of it was just, okay, we're not we don't have to make a purely financial decision right now, so what's going to feel, yeah, what's gonna feel the best? And I guess, yeah, I guess they didn't realize that maybe not everybody is as driven that way, but I'm definitely a very feelings driven person, and I know, we've talked about this a little bit with, with the sort of, you know, likely being an ADD or ADHD founder, and just, I didn't realize before, I think, how much of my decision making around how I've shaped my business has been, like, I've talked about it in terms of alignment and, you know, values-driven and that sort of thing. But I think part of it is I cannot muster up the energy to do stuff I'm not super freakin' stoked about. So I do kind of factor that into all my decisions. Like, I'm never going to design services that I'm going to be resentful of as soon as I'm designing them. It's like, if I already know I'm going to be resentful doing all these calls, like, I just cannot make that, that service available. So I do think I've gotten pretty tuned into like, alright, what's the stuff that lights me up, and how do I craft my offers so that I can be totally shining and excited about them? Because that, that's just, I guess, how I move through the world. Michele Hansen  14:34It seems like you combine this incredible self-awareness about what energizes you and prioritizing what energizes you with this huge sense of responsibility for the users of what you have created. Marie Poulin  14:54Yeah, I'd like, I'd like to think so. I mean, you know, one of the things that happened when we first launched Doki, was that people were signing up for it, and then they weren't shipping. Right? It's like anything now, like the time that it takes to actually launch a course, and I know you've had, you know, episodes with Colleen about this of just what it really takes to really grow an online course and actually make it a sustainable living. And so people would, would sign up thinking the tech was gonna solve that for them, and they're all, like, ready to go, and they they pick the technology well before they have their content created. And it didn't feel good that there were people paying us a monthly thing and they had never shipped a course yet. So, the first thing I did was like, well, we need to get people shipping faster, how do I do this? And I ended up creating a course that was run your learning launch that was trying to get people to like, get the shitty first draft of your course out as soon as possible, right. Like, co-create it with people. I'm a huge, huge believer, in co-creating products with your people. They are going to tell you what they want, they tell you what they need, and then the words that they use in those sessions, in those live calls that you're doing with people, that's exactly what shapes your, your sales pages and stuff. So I, I'm just a big fan of working with people on this stuff, and not just, you know, working in secret for six months building a thing, and then you know, putting it out into the world. Like, we know that it just it just doesn't work that way. So yeah, I think I do carry a huge, huge respect for, for the users that are signing up for my thing. It is a responsibility I do not take lightly. And so even right now with, with the course, I've been working for six months on the new curriculum. It's like, where can I look at all the places that people are stumbling, and maybe we overwhelm new, new people that are coming in like going, oh, my gosh, this course is so big, and then they get scared, and they run away and then they don't complete the course. Like, it does matter to me not just that they complete it, but they actually do experience some kind of transformation through that process. So like, how can I improve the learning outcomes? How can I design this better? I can't help myself, like maybe that's partly a bit of perfectionism. But it's like, I want this to be a really epic experience for them and be really memorable. And, in a way, that's my marketing, right? It's like other people sharing with other people, their experience of the course. To me that feels way better, and way easier than like, chucking a bunch of money into ads and just like getting it in front of people. It's like, no, I want the users to be so excited about it, that they are shouting it from the rooftops and getting people in the door. So yeah, that matters for sure. Michele Hansen  17:20It's so interesting, you're talking about like, building collaboratively with people, and, you know, I like I'm a huge advocate of talking to people and talking to customers, but I never really built in public, so to speak, until a couple of months ago, when I was writing my book. And you know, to what you said about, you know, getting early feedback from people and building it with them, that, that has been an incredibly, like, a transformative experience. And it's, it's really remarkable when you combine that combination of, as you said, something that you are super stoked about with other people who are stoked about it, like, you know, like to kind of, you know, talk a little bit about being like, you know, ADHD founder. So like, for so for, just to give us sort of a little bit of context. So like, I was diagnosed with ADD at 11, which I guess they don't diagnose people with anymore, because apparently, like, they were only diagnosing girls with it, or something. So now everything is all under ADHD. And you sort of are recently exploring, like, whether you're ADHD, and so but like, on this, this combination of, you know, working on something you're really passionate about, and then in the course of working on it in public, finding other people who are really passionate about it, who help you improve it, like, I feel like that puts my hyper focus in this insane overdrive. Marie Poulin  18:54Yeah. How do you how do you control that? I'm so, I'm so curious kind of what your, Michele Hansen  18:58I don't. I, yesterday, I was so annoyed that I had to stop working and make dinner. I was like, can't I just work for like, 48 hours straight, like, and, which is, like, not, like, I, like, my work life balance is a lot better than it used to be like, but I just like it's so, it's, like, painful when I'm really interested in something because it's like, yesterday, I was like, working on the book, like and it was just I was so, like, so fired up about what I was working on. And then I was like, okay, actually, like, we need to, we need to eat. Like, and I have you know, we have a family and like, my husband was mowing the lawn and like, you know, so I was like, okay, I need to like go to the grocery store like, I need to shift gears, but like, the whole time I was there like, you know, yes, I bought like lettuce and yogurt and whatever else we needed, but like, my brain was still like, writing.  Marie Poulin  19:48Somewhere else.  Michele Hansen  19:49Like, my brain like, was writing and I think, you know, to what you said about how you and Ben work very like, autonomously, like, Mathias and I work together for the most part, and I think this gets frustrating sometimes when I'm still thinking about something else, but I don't give any, like, outward signals of that. I'm just like, a little bit quiet. And like, he like, talks to me and like, I just don't know,  Marie Poulin  20:12You're nodding and say you're listening, but you're writing in your head. Yeah. Michele Hansen  20:14Yeah. Like, I don't even acknowledge it or, like, I seem like I'm listening. And then he asked me 10 minutes later, like about what he had told me about, and I'm like, what, like, this is new, and he's like, seriously. Like, the hyper focus can be amazing, but also kind of detrimental at the same time because if I have to do anything else, I'm just cranky. Marie Poulin  20:40I definitely, I definitely relate to this, and I think this was, this was one of the the signs like, I, I thought, well, I couldn't possibly have ADHD because like, I've been self-employed for 12 years, and I have a successful business and I get things done, and, you know, I sort of had a lot of misconceptions around what it meant to be or have ADHD because my sister has ADHD, too. And she is like, the poster child of what what you think of when you think of ADHD, and very hyperactive, super distracted, extremely extroverted, just like, a million thoughts, like, interrupting other thoughts. And, and I was like, okay, that's what ADHD looks like. It was very distinct. And so because I get things done, I sort of thought, I just had a different perception of it, and I realized that the hyper focus binges that I go on that were like, oh, that explains why like, it can be really hard to tear myself away from, from the screen, and it almost becomes borderline obsessive, and it can be really difficult to manage. So that is one of the signs I started to be like, oh. It always happens in these super inconsistent bursts, right? Very, very wildly inconsistent. And I always, yeah, like, frick, if you just have a dial, you could, you could, you could turn that on when you needed to, but oh my gosh, so I can relate to that. Just, it's inconvenient, and yeah, it's also the thing that helps us kind of push forward and get things done, and it's a wonderful thing when it's there, but it can happen at the detriment of other parts of our lives. So that's definitely something that I struggle with, for sure. Michele Hansen  22:13You know, I, like, I relate so hard to that, because I can't possibly, you know, have ADHD because you get so much done. Like, when I was in college, I think there was like, a running joke about how many jobs and side projects I had at any given time. Like, I think it was like, I had, it was like, six. Like, I had a part time job, I had an internship, I had like, volunteering, I had, like, all of these like, side projects with my own going on, like, um, and, but when I, so when I was diagnosed as a kid, like it was very much presented as I had this deficit of focus. And then I had to overcome that deficit of focus, and then like, that was it. And like, I, so I was never like, really in therapy or any sort of treatment. Like I was taught how to manage that, like calendars, and like, planners became a huge part of my life. But when I was, this was when I was in elementary school. So when I was in middle school, I was supposed to have like, you know, a tutor, and like somebody who like worked with me on it, and like, a plan, they call it a 504 plan in the US, but I never actually had it because my grades were too high. And,  Marie Poulin  23:21People always think you need the support, right?  Michele Hansen  23:22Right. Because it was like, oh, like if you you know, if you have those, like if you have this deficiency, like, she's overcome the deficiency if she's getting A's and B's, so there's no problem here. And I didn't, really for me, it wasn't only until the last like six months or a year that I started understanding all of these other facets of it that, like, it's not just that sometimes I have trouble focusing on tasks I don't want to do. Like, there's all of these other things like, you, you know, that, there's the hyper focus you mentioned, there's the like, the perfectionism that you touched on earlier, you know, there are those kind of, you know, everyone's experience of it is different. But like, I, there's just so many things that like, I thought were me things that were just kidn of weird about me. And then it turns out, there's all these other people who are weird, like me, and, Marie Poulin  24:16To read other people's descriptions, and you go, are you kidding me? Like, that's a, that's a thing? I'm not alone? Or like, I thought it was just a family quirk, and then you're like, oh, or is it that actually a good chunk of my family also, you know, like sister's diagnosed and when you look at the behaviors, you're like, oh, yeah, like, it would explain why our family kind of operates this way. And, you know, the more you start to meet people, you're like, oh, okay, there's, there's maybe a reason, too, that, and I don't know if you if you feel this too, but that for example, people with ADHD seem drawn to my work or drawn to my, my style, right? Because I think in some ways you get attracted to different people's communication styles, and I realized, like, in certain calls that I would I have with people that were very energizing, I didn't realize this at the time, it's almost like, you know, when you like, once you see it, you start to see it everywhere, of all the people that I connect with that had ADHD that I didn't know, I was like, oh my gosh, that explains why when we get on a call, neurons are firing, and we're all over the map, and we're just like changing gears, like, constantly, and it just feels like this creative spark is just like, going and going and it's incredible. It's a very different experience with someone whose brain doesn't work that way, and I, I started to clue in, I'm like, oh, maybe there's a reason. And then when you start to look at the behaviors, I'm like, okay, like, it would explain a lot. You know, and you start to kind of look backwards and be like, oh, yeah, all those behaviors start to kind of click into place. And you see, actually, things with a new lens. And when I look at past behaviors, and maybe ways I've really, really judged myself, and I was like, oh my gosh, like, I just, I didn't realize, you know, and I think for me, a big part of that is workaholism, in a way. Like I thought, I really judged myself for being like, oh, I'm like a workaholic, a workaholic. And I thought, yes, and like, it's not so black and white like that. I am very driven by the work that I do because I've so carefully crafted work that I don't hate, and so I've designed work that I love. I'm getting to connect with people and ideas get to form, and I'm always doing new things every day. So of course, like it's feeding that dopamine, I'm like, yeah, it's like, I love this. And so, it is really difficult to shut off work. And so I think I carried a lot of guilt that I work on weekends, but also take really long breaks in the middle of the day and go gardening. And so like, I have found my own ebb and flow, and I think I was really harsh on myself with some of that stuff. And then I was like, well, what if it's actually okay, that my brain is a little more activated than the average person or, or it just kind of feeds off information differently, and maybe I want to consume more courses at a time than the average person. And so it's just brought up a lot of interesting reflection that I'm seeing behaviors and maybe a different light, and that I actually find I'm being a little more compassionate with myself to be like, hey, is that Maria's personality is that ADHD? Is that me coping? Like, it's still very much learning for me. So I'm still kind of just keeping an open mind and just really trying to reflect and notice those behaviors now. Michele Hansen  27:20You know, the, we are, you know, what's called sort of neurodivergent people living in a neurotypical world. And I think, from, you touched on sort of that, that guilt about not having sort of, quote, unquote, like, normal patterns for things and ways of thinking about things. And I think unpacking that shame that we don't fit the neurotypical box is so important, because, I think in, you know, education and kind of maybe, and like, when you're not working for yourself, like neurotypical is the standard, and people who don't meet that are kind of just outside of that. And so, like, there's like this, like, we blame ourselves for that. But if instead, you know, we can, like find ways to work on the things that we are passionate about, and that do energize us, then these, like, amazing things can be unlocked. And I think, like, I have noticed that I tend to find a lot of neurodivergent people in the kind of, like, indie SaaS courses like, internet biz world, and I wonder if that's because a lot of us have just felt like we didn't, yeah, like, we didn't really belong and like, but like, the way to, like really bring out like, what we are capable of, like, like, I remember when I worked, you know, in bigger companies, like I always, I would describe myself, like a pin and a pinball machine. Like, I just always felt like I was just like, bouncing around constantly trying to show like, what I was capable of, and like, what I was good at, and like, what I could do and what I could contribute, and that was always, like, way more and different than whatever the role I was in was supposed to be doing. And it was so frustrating. Like, it was like, deeply frustrating, you know, versus now, like, you know, I can focus on the things that, you know, sort of with, I guess, with a little bit of business knowledge, right? Because you can't just focus on things that don't lead to an income. Um, you know, like, yeah, the things that really energize, and like you've said, how this, like, managing your own brain in a way, it's kind of like, maybe what attracted you to notion in the first place, and then kind of prompted you to go on this path of making this amazingly, like, I'm so amazed by all the things you build with Notion, like this tool that, like, helps you not only steer your brain, but like express it in the way that it wants to be expressed that maybe is not really reflected and other tools. Marie Poulin  29:53Yeah, it's a, it's a weird and wonderful thing, but it does feel like this bizarre culmination of all of my weird interests and strengths, and like even the fact that it's kind of like a No Code builder of sorts, right? It's like I have a web design background, and so I think naturally I'm inclined to build information architecture, but do it beautifully. Like, that's what I did for clients. And so, and then even like my design thinking background, and how I've studied systems, or how I've had to find these productivity systems for myself that worked. And the way certain tools, you know, are very opinionated, and they, they sort of force you into, like, like Asana, for example, everything is a task, like, it sort of forces you into one way of thinking, which is great, it's a great task manager. But I'm like, my strategic planning doesn't really fit in there, and how do I connect that to, to, and everything just kind of felt messy. And, you know, as someone with ADHD that already, already feels like I'm everywhere all the time, for me, Notion was this place where like, suddenly I could see everything that was on my plate in one place in a really easy way. So this ability to like, zoom out, zoom in very, very quickly and have it all integrated was just like, ah, everything like has come into place. And it just kind of clicked, and I think I was just so passionate, so excited about it, it felt like you know, I said life was a shit show before Notion. Like I had tried to get to, like you said, lean on calendars, we like find the systems to kind of lean on like a bit of a crutch. But there were still some systems pieces missing that Notion, in a way, forced me to build my own in a way that really worked for my brain. And I don't think it's a coincidence that just so many of the people that have joined the course or that seem really excited about it and get a lot out of it have also mentioned their own ADHD. Like, I literally just saw a message pop up in the forum, like 20 minutes ago that said how they think notion is just an ADHD friendly tool. I'm like, What an interesting thing that, again, it wasn't even on my radar a year ago or two years ago. I didn't even really think about it. I didn't, I certainly didn't even remotely suspect that I would have had it. And yet, now that I'm aware of it, and I'm seeing more conversations around neurodiversity, really just seeing how Notion gives neurodiverse folks a place to be themselves, as kind of cheesy as it sounds, like, the fact that you can just make it what you want it to be. It can be a personal growth engine, it can be a place where you organize your files, you know, daily journaling, like, you name it, whatever you want it to be, it can be a place that inspires you. And so I just, I love to show people like, well, here's how I'm using it for my garden tracking, I just love there's just endless possibilities with it. And I think if you only look at it as a productivity tool, you know, people kind of poopoo it or they're like, oh, procrastinate, procrastinating on building their setups, and let you know, people have all sorts of opinions about it. But I actually think it is, it's a tool for managing your emotions just as much it is as a tool for managing your information. So I find it quite fascinating from a tool for making you more mindful about how you work and what you need, and just noticing your energy. And I didn't, I didn't know all that stuff wasn't stuff that other people did. It's not till showing it to people, and they're like, holy crap, this is the most organized thing I've ever seen in my life. And I'm like, me, are you kidding me? Because like, I see the baseline the scenes, right? It's like, it's, it's funny to me the things that it's only once, you know, to bring it back to your conversation about sharing in public, working in public. When you make your thinking visible, and you share what you're doing out there, that's where I think you start to see what are those spiky points of view that you have? Or what are the interesting ways that you approach stuff that people are like, whoa, I didn't even think of it that way. So yeah, I'm curious, too, in you sharing your stuff publicly, and doing the writing publicly, like, has anything surprised you that you put out there and you're like, oh, wow, I didn't expect that to really land for people or, you know, what did you notice in your process of sharing your stuff publicly? Michele Hansen  33:53Yeah, I mean, so something that actually has surprised me in the last, I've had two people in the last week, tell me how the introduction of my book made them completely rethink how they approach other people. And,  Marie Poulin  34:11Wow Michele Hansen  34:12How they like, didn't even like, they didn't realize like, the extent of empathy and what it was and how they could use it and how it can help them be a better you know, coworker or person and, like, not just someone who's better at making landing pages or making product decisions. And I started out, like, I, so I, the the introduction, I actually originally didn't really have a very good introduction of the book. Like, I didn't define empathy very much or anything. And then one of my early readers was like, I think, I think you need to introduce this a little more. And so I did, and then like, it basically sounds like people are, some people like reading the first 10 pages and then being like, whoa, and then like, going on this other path. And then like, and then they're like, okay, well when I actually like, need to build something I'll come back here for the scripts. But like, having this, and, you know, like we've talked, like we've talked a lot about, like emotional intelligence here, and like, I've had my own journey with there and like, talking about, you know, workaholism, like, is that is that a trait? Or is that a trauma response? Like, it's kind of both, like, and like, so that has been a really important journey for me. By the way, if that resonates with anyone that's called the flight response, just Google that. And, and so that like, like, I have this kind of like, this, like, little dream that like, you know, like, people, nobody puts like, be more empathetic on their to daily to do list, maybe some, maybe you do. But like, nobody really doesn't. But they put like, you know, get more sales, like, write a new landing page, like, figure out which features I should build. Like, those are the things that come up on people's to do lists. And so I have this, like, kind of dream that like, in the process of helping people do those things they already want to do that they will become more empathetic in general and learn that this is a skill that they can apply not just to business, but to the rest of their life, because it's been such an important journey for me, because it's something that I really didn't really learn until my 20s. And, and, yeah, I mean, that's, I don't know. Yeah, it's been very, like, it's been very soul-nourishing for me.  Marie Poulin  36:31The process of writing and sharing?  Michele Hansen  36:34Yeah, I think like, in a very unexpected way, and, you know, kind of talking about ADHD, and so it sounds like what you're doing, like, you sound very much like a systems thinker. And you have built this sort of digital system that reflects your mental system, and in the process of doing so, you're helping people realize that, you know, they could build off of that to build something that reflects their mental system. And it's like, and you're helping them really like, blossom into, into expressing their thinking. And what I'm doing, like, I have, I have had feedback from people who have said, they are ADHD, or autistic, and they have said that, like, this is very, very different for them, for, I mean, for those two groups for very different reasons. But like, I've had people tell me, like, I don't think I'm capable of doing this because, you know, as you said, there's a kind of that stereotype of people who are ADHD that they, like, you know, talk over the people, like, can't stay on a topic, like, you know, just all of that, which, like, I mean, I think if we weren't doing a podcast right now, like, we would be excitedly talking over each other right now, like.  Marie Poulin  37:53I was wondering.  Michele Hansen  37:54I, like, am really holding back. Marie Poulin  37:57Which is exhausting, right? It's like, it takes a lot of energy to, like, tone it down, be normal, like,   Michele Hansen  38:04Oh, I'm gonna go jump on the trampoline after this. But, like, for me, it's like this weird thing, because, because I didn't learn, like, this either wasn't built into me, or I didn't learn it as a kid, like, I've had to really focus on learning how to like, listen to people. Marie Poulin  38:23You're so good at it. Michele Hansen  38:25It became a hyper focus thing for me, like, so I feel like when I'm listening to people, like learning, like, I have to like, I think it's why people are like, oh, this made me realize these things about empathy I didn't even realize, because I had to, like learn empathy and listening at a level that most people don't have to. Like, I had to really understand it. Like, I had to really dive deep into it. Because I just didn't have that, like, I didn't, I was not born with that feature built in. So, and then, but like, I think it kind of became this thing that, like, I hyper focus on. And so like, when I'm talking to someone, like, I'm just like, I'm like, completely submerging myself into them, and like exploring their brain, and I think, you know, talking about like, systems thinkers, like, that's something I love is like, getting to understand the system of somebody else's head and like getting to, like, poke around and all the little corners and be like, oh, why is, what's going on here? Like, we're like, what do we got going on here? Like,  Marie Poulin  39:29I compare it to like, looking at their underwear drawer. You're just like, you get to see like, it's very personal, right? And people are often like embarrassed or they feel a lot of shame because, like, their their space is really messy. But I love that, right.  Michele Hansen  39:42I love mess.  Marie Poulin  39:42It's so beautiful. It's, and I will say, like, in the call that we had with you like, I was so struck by how intently it felt like you were listening. I was like, I, it was like almost disarming. Like when I got off, I was like, I can't think of the last time that someone actually was just there to listen. Like, there was no agenda there. Like, you were you were really just there to be a helpful ear, and it was just quite impressive, I have to say, I was just like, holy crap, Michele is an incredible listener. I was really blown away. And so I love that you got nerdy about listening. So nerdy. I love it. Michele Hansen  40:23I mean, I grew up being, I think the thing, the number one thing I heard growing up was Michele, you never listened, like, you're not listening, you don't listen. Like and like, I have found complex, that I have found that the things that I'm really bad at, like, if I get over that, and then, like, I will, like intensely research it, and it will become a huge focus for me, like, I would like, so like in college, I studied international affairs and economics, and I remember in one of my first classes, one of the professors asked who knew what, like, Bretton Woods was, and, you know, I'm from New England, and I was like, I know, that's a ski resort, but like, I don't know anything else. And like, you know, it's it's the, the post-war monetary system that was set up after the war, basically, to prevent another war, economically. But I didn't like, know that, and I felt like really embarrassed. And I ended up like, really diving into the topic to the point where it was not only my thesis topic, but for like, two years, I wrote papers about related things in other classes, even when I wasn't required to. And now I have this, like, just all of this knowledge about, like, monetary relations in Europe, specifically focused on the US and Germany, like, between, like 1958, and like 1973, really intensely on the 71 to 73 period. And, like, I it's not particularly, like, for what I do, it's not really useful information, but like, kind of like, I feel like that's very similar to how I got into doing listening and interviews because, because I was so bad at it, because I didn't know what I was doing, because I was like, I felt embarrassed that I didn't know what was going on, or like, people had made me feel like I was deficient in that. Like, I think this is where that, like, that hyper focus comes in. It's like, once you like latch on to a topic, like, you can't get your teeth out of it, even if you, like, wanted to.  Marie Poulin  42:28Painfully relateable. I love that you brought this up to you because I think I've done this throughout my my career to where it's like, oh my gosh, like public speaking this is like, I'm terrible at this, I'm so afraid of it, it's like, must hire three different coaches and take five courses and like, read every book, you know. Like, just go down these crazy rabbit holes to go to such an extreme to work on a skill that you know, I was maybe like, not, not that great at it wasn't terrible, but just didn't feel like a strength. And I think I've often felt self conscious of is it a waste of time, when I should be like focusing on my real strengths. And so, I just think it's so funny. There's, there's obviously a trigger there around feeling incompetent, or like, I hate that feeling stupid or feeling like something I'm really bad at is preventing me from succeeding in business. And I, you know, I've shared before a little bit about, like, fear of being on video and fear of being on stage. And so these are all things I've obsessively worked on. And you know, I'll share like a super vulnerable moment from not, not that long ago, but there was ,there was someone who shared with me, they spoke with someone who had taken the course, and it was an older woman. I don't know when she took the course, but maybe she took it like, early on in the course building journey. It's definitely gone through a number of iterations. But she she was like, angry. She was like, oh my gosh, she goes so fast. She's all over the place. She needs to read about adult learning. Like, she's a terrible facilitator. And like, if I showed you my Notion goals page, it's like being a masterful facilitator is literally on my, my big visionary goals. And I was like, oh my God, am I, is this just like a skill I am, I am bad at? Like, it knocked me on my ass and I questioned everything. I was like, oh my god, what's going on? And in the same week, I literally had someone say that my sessions were the thing that they look forward to every week. And it was so weird to get this, like, the most negative criticism I've ever gotten, and the most positive, and it was in that same week that I had actually discovered, that I started to realize I probably had ADHD and I realized that my presentation style and my exploratory show you the possibilities, it's, it's quite different than say someone who might be a little more neurotypical, a little more instructional in style. I know that my vibe, it doesn't jive for everyone, but it really works well for people that have ADHD, and so that's where I was like, oh, crap. So, hiring a course coach, a curriculum designer, a learning advocate, like, I went all deep, and I was like, I'm going to learn about facilitation, I'm going to learn about teaching, I'm going to learn about learning design, like, how can I make this experience so good that, like, nobody could ever say anything like that? You know? And like, fair enough, if someone, like, it doesn't resonate with them, I totally get that. But it just, it just felt holy crap, like, is this is this like, a giant blind spot that I'm not seeing? And, you know, after talking to a number of students, a number of people, it was like, no, like, you know, this is someone who's not very comfortable with computers. This is someone that, like, it doesn't make sense for this type of person to be using Notion. Like, I don't think Notion is the right tool for everyone, and I don't think my instructional style is is for everyone, and I'm okay with that. I've made peace with that. And there's room to to improve that. So I definitely feel you on like, ooh, rabbit hole, here we go. Let's work on this scale. Because like, no one can criticize this again, like I would go all in, just watch me. Michele Hansen  46:04Have you come across the term rejection sensitive dysphoria?  Marie Poulin  46:08I have.  Michele Hansen  46:11So it's this term for how, I don't, I don't have a good way of explaining it. But like, it's for how painful, like, that kind of criticism can be, and how it can either, like, prevent people from wanting something in the first place, or when you get that criticism, it i,  Marie Poulin  46:30Highly motivating.  Michele Hansen  46:32Yeah, but like, it's all-encompassing.  Marie Poulin  46:35Yeah.  Michele Hansen  46:37Like, it's, and then you said that somebody else that same week said how much they loved your course, yet, you're,  You keep ruminating on the bad, right? Ruminating and obsess over and then hyper focus on that, and then go into this mode of, like, wanting to make sure that never ever happens again. And it's like this kind of extreme version of loss aversion, where, you know, we're so afraid of losing something, like, of losing that, in this case, like, that person's, you know, like, their positive feedback on the course or their, their positive experience with it, rather than focusing on the people who already had a positive experience and making it better for the people who is, because like, it's like, do you actively, like, frame your course, or some of your courses as being for ADHD people, or, like, neurodiverse people? Marie Poulin  47:33I don't, again, part of this is I'm not officially diagnosed. And, and, you know, again, I'm still learning about this stuff. And so I partly feel like a little bit of imposter complex around this whole topic to know I want to be very careful, you know, like, just, just being mindful about how I talk about it. And, and, Michele Hansen  47:53Everyone's experience is different of it, like, yeah. Marie Poulin  47:56Totally, totally. And so I just want to be very careful about it, and it is something I've considered of like, maybe it would actually, like, the number of people that have watched the, I have a YouTube video where I'm teaching my sister who has ADHD how to use Notion, and the positive feedback, and the people being like, oh, my gosh, it was so nice to see normal people, like, normal people like me, you know, other people with ADHD, just, just going through this experience. And it did make me wonder like, well, hey, knowing that this is the case, and knowing that it seems to attract these people, should I go in that direction? So it's been on my mind to some, something to maybe mention, and even kind of tease out a little bit, like, in my welcome sequence. When I'm introducing myself, I'm starting to, like, try out using some of the language. And I will say, I've gotten an incredible response. Anytime I've talked about it, it's been really, really positive. So, I don't mention it, but it is something I'm like, maybe like, and should I get a diagnosis to be? Does it matter? I don't really know. I'm not really sure what the, what the protocol is there. But yeah. Michele Hansen  49:01I mean, like, I have a diagnosis, but like, I, I feel like I don't really understand it very well, like, because I just kind of accepted it as this thing that was just wrong with me that I had to control. And then like, that was kind of it. Um, and I like so in my book, actually, in the original newsletters, like I talked about having ADHD and how, you know, focusing on people and listening and like, all that, like, were really difficult for me because of that, and I got so much positive feedback on it, but then I got it into the book, and I, like, one of my reviewers was like, you know, your experience of ADHD is not a universal one. And there's like, and they were saying there's kind of a difference between like writing it in a newsletter, where people know you and they start from a point of kind of the sort of familiarity, like, that they they trust that you come from a good place, but like writing it in a book, people won't know me people won't know like and even if I say this is only my experience of it, like, someone who has had a different experience of the diagnosis or, or like, doesn't, like, that they have the diagnosis doesn't let you know they have made been made to feel less than because of it, or worse. I think both of us kind of tend to view it as this, like, this thing that we could steer and bring out, like, bring out our true selves, so to speak. Like, so I ended up taking it out, but it also feels so relevant, like it, like it feels like this piece of information that people need to know that it's like, Yes, I was known for not being able to listen to anything, so then I focused on it to the point of it being like, this obsessive skill. Almost necessary base information.  Marie Poulin  50:46Part of the story.  Michele Hansen  50:47Yes. And the same way that like, and so I found a way to like, kind of tell that story that I had to listen, like learn how to do this, but like without using the diagnosis, but like, part of me, really. So like, maybe it's like something I can do in a talk or something like that, right? Like, there's not every, like, there's different forums for things.  Marie Poulin  51:04Not every medium needs to, yeah. Michele Hansen  51:05And also where I can kind of explain, and if someone has like a question of like, well, that's not my experience of it, then we can talk about it afterwards. And they can know that I'm coming from a good, I don't, I don't know, I also feel conflicted, because I don't want to, like, I can only speak from my own experience. Like, I am, and again, maybe again this is maybe an ADHD thing, or it's like, I haven't hyper-focused on ADHD itself, so therefore I cannot speak about it.  Marie Poulin  51:29Totally. Oh, my gosh, the hyper-focusing of watching all the videos about ADHD and like, it's just, it's it's so funny looking at all the memes. I was so dismissive of ADHD, because I was like, oh, well, come on. That's all of us for every single meme. And at some point, I was like, wait a second, like, is that all of us? And yeah, it took some digging, and I was like, wait a second here. Michele Hansen  51:52There's some tweets about this that I find myself referencing, and it was either people with ADHD need to stop being so relatable, or I need to go to the doctor. Marie Poulin  52:06Exactly. Michele Hansen  52:07I think, you know, my, so this is super fun talking and relating to you and like, realizing, you know, that we're both not weird. We're weird together. But my, the reason I really wanted to talk to you about this here is because I think people who are neurodivergent, who don't fit the box, like, tend to feel like we're not as capable of things as other people, or we have been made to feel that we're not as capable. And I hear from people that are like, I don't know if I could run a business, like, I can't, you know, like, if I can't focus on one set thing, like, and I'm all over the place, like, I can't possibly run a business. And I think what I like to show and, like, what you show, amazingly, is that not only can you run a business if you have ADHD or any other like, because I noticed all these, like, people in the indie community, like, they're people, like people who just don't fit the box. Like they have, they have disabilities, they have chronic health conditions, they are autistic, like, whatever those things are, like, they have been able to find a home in this place, and like, you can run a business if you're ADHD like, you, like, like, I present myself as evidence and I feel like you are evidence of that, too. Marie Poulin  53:35Absolutely. I think a big part of it comes down to you have to know yourself really well. Like, you have to know your triggers. You have to know how you're incentivized, how you best operate, so that you can either get the support that you need, or again, you can design your products and services in a way that, even though, for example, I've been a generalist for a decade, and it's really only in the last year and a half, two years, that I was like, I'm going all in on Notion. Like, I see an opportunity here, like, let's, let's just try this, I'm going to see, like, what's the worst that could happen? I make, I make some money for for this chapter and I get known as the Notion person and then I can, like, flip the chapter and do the next thing. I've been in general so long, I was like, whatever, let's just give it a try. And what again, what I love about it is my days can be so freakin different. Like, I am not doing the same thing every day even though I'm doing one thing and so you know, it's about finding traction with that one thing but if you can design your business in such a way that you're still getting, you know that dopamine hit or whatever it is that you need, you got to know yourself well enough to know, hey, I really thrive with routine or I really thrive with days that look very different, and then getting someone to support you on your team, like, maybe you have a small team. For me hiring my direct my you know started with a virtual assistant, who is now my, mou know, Director of Operations and having her is no doubt a humongous part of why I've been able to do the kind of growth that I've done. Like, I would have been scrambling wearing all these different hats. So to have someone whose focus is entirely operations and all the nitty gritty, like, export of CSVs, any of the detail work, I'm like, let's just be honest, Marie is not the details person. I've accepted this. And now we have someone who is a details person who frickin loves that stuff. And the stuff that makes me cringe is the stuff that makes her day, and like, what better? Like, that's all you can ask for, I think. So, even if you're just getting support in a really, really tiny way, you know, again, there's just so many opportunities, I think, to get creative with the way you design your business, that it is supporting you. But you do have to, to know yourself really well, I think to know how to do that. Michele Hansen  55:51And what I, you know, ADHD, the first two words of it, or attention deficit, and I find that you show is that it's not a, like, it doesn't have to be this thing that's deficient about you.  Marie Poulin  56:06It's just a little inconsistent, that's all. Michele Hansen  56:08Like, it can be, if you sort of steer it and give it support, like, it can be this amazing thing that you bring to the world. Like, it's not a deficiency. Like, I feel like that's just kind of like, the message I can give to like 11 year old me, like, it's not a deficiency, like you just have to help it come out. Marie Poulin  56:28Well, hyperactivity like that, like you've said before, like the phrase, it just, it doesn't carry a whole lot of positive connotations. And so,  Michele Hansen  56:36No, the whole thing sounds very negative.  Marie Poulin  56:38It does, yeah, we're we're off. Like, there's something broken with us, versus hunter gatherer brain, like different types of brains, I think evolved for different purposes. And, you know, we all, we have our own incredible use cases, like I know, you mentioned in other episodes, the ability to form connections between really disparate stuff very, very quickly. Oh, my gosh, in companies to have that kind of strategic person who can really see those connections, there's no doubt that each of us kind of can plug in somewhere and we can really shine in different ways. But it's, it's tricky, like you said, if we are neurodivergent, in a neurotypical world, it might mean that we might have to take the initiative on that and, and take charge in different ways and kind of carve our own path. Michele Hansen  57:25But then when we do, like, other people seeing like, hey, like, it's not just me, like, you know, you mentioned the, like the Dani Donovan's ADHD comics. I don't know if you've seen those, like, I'm so appreciative that she's so open about it.  Marie Poulin  57:37Yeah.  Michele Hansen  57:39It just, I think, because we have been made to feel deficient or different, like we, you know, I know I tended to like hold this in, and I realized that even like, most of my best friends didn't know I had been diagnosed as a kid until a couple of years ago, because I just never talked about it. I just, like, accepted it, this thing that was wrong with me, and like, whatever, like, we don't need to talk about it. But then we talk about it, and it doesn't actually, yeah, it doesn't have to be. Like, it can really bring whatever our uniquenesses into the world. Marie Poulin  58:08Yeah, I'm hoping it's sort of becoming a little bit more destigmatized, and on Twitter, and it just feels like I'm hearing more about it, and people maybe are getting a little more comfortable talking about it. And even it seems like things that therapists maybe wouldn't recognize before, like, it's starting to become a little bit more known. And so yeah, I'm hoping that, you know, by sharing some of my own honest insights that that it does help destigmatize it. I think the more people, you know, like you and I talking about it, I do think it just kind of opens up the doors a little bit. So, if we can be part of that then you know, yay. If it helps one other person even just kind of embrace their their inner weirdness a little bit, then we've done our, our duty. Michele Hansen  58:52Yes. Exactly. Or embrace the weirdness of, you know, their loved ones, too.  Marie Poulin  58:58Find your weirdos. Yeah. Michele Hansen  58:59Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's probably a good note to end on today. It has been so fun talking to you, Marie. I feel like we've, we've gone on quite well, like, we normally run half an hour and we're quite over that, but I'm okay with it. I, this is so fun. I'm so grateful that you came on. And so, if people are curious about your courses, or about you, where can they find out more? Marie Poulin  59:26You can check out my website is MariePoulin.com. You'll be able to find the course on there, too. That's NotionMastery.com, pretty active on Twitter. That's that's probably where do most of my chitchat about business and founder life and ADHD and all that sort of thing. So @MariePoulin on Twitter, and if you're curious about more of the, more personal behind the scenes stuff, and plants and gardening, you can check me out on Instagram, too, so. Michele Hansen  59:51Awesome. Thank you so much, Marie.  Marie Poulin  59:54Yeah, thanks for having me. Really fun.

Sometimes the challenges to consistency come from self-sabotage, things like distraction, boredom, imposter syndrome.But especially for folks who are neurodivergent or dealing with chronic issues or disabilities, consistency comes with additional challenges that require you to figure out how to manage unpredictable energy levels, or how to cope with executive function issues.Most common productivity advice centers on the idea of trying to do more work, to shove more into the day, to force yourself to change your behavior so you can do more.But what if you don't want to do more? What if you just want to make it easier on yourself to do the work you love?Or what if your brain or energy levels just don't work the same way that the productivity bros hawking the advice do? Then a lot of that advice is just downright useless.The real key is figuring out how your brain works and creating an environment that supports you in doing your best work. And that may take some experimentation, but it probably won't happen following someone else's hacks.Marie Poulin, of Notion Mastery, helps ambitious business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and productivity, so they can spend more time on what matters. She's been an influential voice in the Notion community, has a big following on her Notion Youtube channel, and has created a lot of the Notion resources available today.Marie also recently discovered that she has ADHD, so her brain works a little differently and things like consistency, scripting or executive functioning–like deciding what to prioritize working on–can be extra challenging.Marie and I talk about consistency and how critical it was to her success with Notion and her course and community Notion Mastery. We also talk about how discovering she was neurodivergent explained so much about how her brain worked and has helped her figure out how to set up systems that work the way she does.Listen to the full episode to hear: How Marie uses making public commitments as an external motivator to keep herself consistent Why she learned to build in opportunities for later iteration and improvement to projects so she can be finished enough for now How Marie stumbled into her ADHD diagnosis and how she gave herself permission to accept that her brain works differently Tools for noting when and how you work best so you can minimize resistance in your schedule Learn more about Marie Poulin: Mariepoulin.com Notion Mastery youtube.com/c/mariepoulin How to Run Your Life Inside of Notion Instagram: @mariepoulin Twitter: @mariepoulin Learn more about Susan: Scalespark.co Twitter @ScaleSpark LinkedIn @thesusanboles

On realistic goal and expectation setting. Plus, progress! - Angelborn is free through June 2021 - https://books2read.com/angelborn - The Cupid Mixup - permanently free - https://books2read.com/cupidmixup - Marie Poulin - https://mariepoulin.com/ - https://www.notion.so/ - note taking, database and organization software - 6 Figure Author podcast - https://6figureauthors.com/ - HB90 Method - https://heartbreathings.teachable.com/p/hb90-bootcamp - QOTW: Do you listen to audiobooks? If so, what do you do while you listen?   The My Imaginary Friends podcast is a weekly, behind the scenes look at the journey of a working author navigating traditional and self-publishing. Join fantasy and paranormal romance author L. Penelope as she shares insights on the writing life, creativity, inspiration, and this week's best thing. Subscribe and view show notes at: https://lpenelope.com/podcast | Get the Footnotes newsletter - http://lpen.co/footnotes Support the show - http://frolic.media/podcasts! Stay in touch with me! Website | Instagram | Twitter | Facebook Music credit: Say Good Night by Joakim Karud https://soundcloud.com/joakimkarud Creative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported— CC BY-SA 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/ Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/SZkVShypKgM Affiliate Disclosure: I may receive compensation for links to products on this site either directly or indirectly via affiliate links. Heartspell Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com.

All the conversations are held live on the productive creator's YouTube channel. Therefore any screen sharing that happens can be found on the replay. Live Replay: https://youtu.be/KXVwJrALCSg Marie's Channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/marieisanerd If you enjoy the podcast, would please consider leaving a short review. It takes less than 60 seconds and it really makes a difference. Sign up for Danny's email newsletter ("My Organized Mess") at https://dannyhatcher.com/newsletter/ for details on the upcoming guest. Follow Danny: YouTube: www.youtube.com/dannyhatcher Twitter: https://twitter.com/DannyHatcher Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/danny.hatcher/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dannyhatcher/ Website: https://dannyhatcher.com/

Today I’m talking to some of the best online course creators that I know. So many indie hackers got started and became successful because they found ways to teach others online. So I invited Andrew Berry (@Bazzaruto), who runs the On Deck Course Creators Fellowship, Marie Poulin (@mariepoulin), who runs an online course called Notion Mastery, and Ali Abdaal (@AliAbdaal), who runs Part Time YouTuber Academy. In this episode, we’ll talk about how to get started, overcome imposter syndrome, and how everyone has something to teach.

Marie started the Notion Mastery course back in Nov 2019, growing that to a mid 6-figure business in under a year. Her whole business has been built on taking a leap of faith an niching down and putting her sole focus on this notion course. In this episode we talk about her compounding efforts over the years that have led her to such an impressive year, and how her YouTube channel has contributed to almost 80% of course traffic.

If you have even the slightest interest in creating a movement, this is the episode for you. Amanda Natividad, Head of Marketing for Growth Machine, talks with Stew Fortier, Co-Founder of Compound Writing, about what it takes to build a successful community. And it all starts with defining that community’s purpose. Doing that one thing ridiculously well. We also discuss... Becoming a better writer Ensuring community discussions stay productive What’s next for the creator economy TED Talks’ laser focus on its talks Show Notes: 0:52 - Stew tells how his projects, particularly his writing community Compound Writing, are driven by his interests. 5:35 - About Compound Writing and its cohort structure. 11:04 - Being inclined to write vs. being inclined to publish.  14:27 - The role of link building in Compound Writing. 19:42 - How the Compound community’s feedback supports others’ writing.  24:10 - What does it take to create a community that’s both positive and focused on the workflow? 31:46 - When to create a new Slack channel (and when you probably shouldn’t).  34:58 - Do one thing ridiculously well: the importance of sticking to your intention. 38:21 - What’s next for the creator economy. 41:05 - Recommended tools for writing online. 44:33 - Some of Stew’s favorite online writers and newsletter recommendations. Links: Compound Writing (0:55) Marie Poulin of Notion Mastery (1:22) 30 Day Writing Challenge (11:15) TED Conferences (35:15) Medium (38:33) Substack (38:42) Patreon (38:43) Gumroad (38:43) WordPress (41:57) ConvertKit (42:00) Sara Campbell - Tiny Revolutions (44:52) Tom White - White Noise (45:40) Nick deWilde - The Jungle Gym (46:21) Connect with Stew Fortier: https://twitter.com/stewfortier https://stewfortier.com/ https://www.compoundwriting.com/ Growth Machine & Amanda Natividad: https://growthmachine.com/ https://www.growthmachine.com/contact https://twitter.com/growthmachine__ https://twitter.com/amandanat

Josh is joined by Marie Poulin to talk about the online education business, digital systems, mindset training & self-development, and how Marie decided to go from a generalist designer to finding her niche and going all-in with Notion. We also get into building up self-confidence and creating content online. One of Marie's biggest growth channels is her YouTube channel, but it took her YEARS to build up the courage to start posting consistently, and it clearly paid off. Marie offers lots of great advice here for anyone aspiring to putting themselves out there on YouTube, or social media in general. About Marie Poulin Marie helps business owners level up their digital systems, workflow, and product ecosystems, so they can spend more time on what matters. She previously co-founded Oki Doki with her husband, where they help folks create, launch, and market online courses and training programs. Marie has quickly become the go-to expert in Notion, the wildly popular organization and productivity tool, and is the host of Notion Office Hours and creator of Notion Mastery, where she teaches you how to master your life and business workflows using Notion. Sign up for Marie's Notion Mastery Course: http://bit.ly/mindmeld-notion-mastery Connect with Marie Poulin https://www.mariepoulin.com https://twitter.com/mariepoulin https://instagram.com/mariepoulin https://www.youtube.com/c/mariepoulin ******** For full show notes and links discussed in the episode, go to https://bit.ly/mindmeld-pod ******** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts/iTunes https://apple.co/2Y86xww It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. Subscribe to Mind Meld on your favourite podcast app: **** https://bit.ly/mindmeld-pod Stalk Josh on the Internet: Twitter: (https://twitter.com/joshgonsalves_) Instagram: (https://instagram.com/joshgonsalves_) Facebook: (https://facebook.com/gonsalvesmedia) LinkedIn: (https://linkedin.com/in/joshgonsalves94) YouTube: (https://youtube.com/joshgonsalves) Thanks for coming this far! if you're reading this, it is no accident. The universe brought you to this corner of the internet for a reason, and you're on the right track. I already know that you're an amazing person and I can't wait to connect with you! — Josh

www.thechurchnerd.comSupport us on Patreon and get extra stuff!catch us on…Apple PodcastOvercastTwitter: @churchnerdpodInstagram: thechurchnerdFacebook Group PageEmail: thechurchnerdpodcast@gmail.comReddit: r/churchnerd/___________________________________Mentioned on the Episode2020 Yearly Theme Episode: https://www.thechurchnerd.com/episodes/2019/12/31/10-new-yearCGP Grey explains Yearly Themes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVGuFdX5guEEquality vs. Equity: https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/625404/equity-vs-equality-what-is-the-differenceThings: https://culturedcode.com/things/Todoist: https://todoist.com/Notion: https://www.notion.so/Marie Poulin: https://www.youtube.com/user/marieisanerdAugust Bradley: https://www.youtube.com/user/augustbradleyWoven: https://woven.com/Toggl Track: https://toggl.com/Timery for iOS: https://timeryapp.com/___________________________________Theme music is Halter Top by Podington Bear. Used with permission from the artist. Check out more of his music. Get bonus content on Patreon Our GDPR privacy policy was updated on August 8, 2022. Visit acast.com/privacy for more information.

Marie Poulin has proven what's possible when you share your expertise online generously.Over the past year, she's produced some of the best content on how to leverage Notion to organize your life and business. It's a niche topic where she's been able to carve out a monopoly of one.The quality of her work has helped create momentum for her popular Notion Mastery course, where she's managed to productize her expertise and build a meaningful business.On this private call, Marie shared how she's leveraged the internet to establish her credibility as a no-code expert. She shared her experience building Notion Mastery, along with some of her other successful ventures that have spawned from building a loyal audience. In the second half of the call, we'll host a Q&A where everybody is welcome to ask any questions they'd like.

It’s easy to see why business owners often adopt a “more is better” mentality with everything from their audience to their offers to their marketing. But the truth is that niching down is often the better growth strategy and, in this episode, business and lifestyle designer Marie Poulin shares why. Marie joins me to talk about how and why she decided to niche down and become known as the go-to person for the workplace software Notion. We talk about how she knew that niching down was the right experiment to try, why she offered her new course, Notion Mastery, as a beta version and why niching down allowed her to dramatically increase her revenue, invest in her team and align her business with work she loves. Get the free Simple Systems to Help You Grow More While Working Less workbook: https://www.ashleygartland.com/simplesystems Learn more about Ashley: https://www.ashleygartland.com/ Learn more about Marie and her course Notion Mastery: https://www.mariepoulin.com

On this week's episode, I caught up with the legend that is, Marie Poulin. Marie is a Notion Jedi Master and I am extremely grateful to have been given the chance to talk to Marie about her Notion journey, set up and approach and productivity. We talk note-taking, planning, habits, routines, goal setting, reviews, workflows, digital vs analog and much, much more. You can find Marie on her website, Twitter and Instagram and check out all of her Notion tutorials and videos on YouTube. You can also check out Marie's Notion Mastery course here. For anyone that doesn't know, Notion is an amazing all-in-one workspace for organising your life really. Hope you guys enjoy this episode. If you'd like updates about this live stream and podcast, with behind the scenes content, then head on over to my Instagram (this is also the place to let me know if you want to feature :)) Alternatively, you can find me and the live stream on Facebook. And you can keep up-to-date with my blog. If you're just interested in my random thoughts of the day and want to follow my Gary Vee retweets, then you can do so on my Twitter. Music: Porch by Django_Global.

“I couldn’t have predicted what the work would look like.” — Marie Poulin

This week, we're taking a look at what happens when you're able to go all in on every aspect of building your business—product, marketing, and operations—and how that impacts how money flows through your business. To do that, I talked with Marie Poulin. Now, Marie has been on the podcast several times now. Most recently, I spoke with her about her decision to not build a business that scales. Funnily enough, at just about the time that interview aired, things started to change for Marie. Marie found something she could go all in on. And suddenly her path to the right product, the right marketing, and the right operations became clear—as did the path to making money with ease. In this conversation, Marie and I talk about how she transformed her business when she stopped resisting and found the thing she could go all in on. We talk about how the way she makes money has changed, how she's finding her customers, how it's all impacted her personal finances, and what she's investing in now that her business is growing with ease. The post EP 285: Going All In With Strategist Marie Poulin appeared first on What Works.

Today we're going full-on geek and talking about project management software with two of my fellow project management software nerds. We're talking about why you would pick one particular software tool over another, the importance of making sure the software you pick works with your brain, and how to avoid sabotaging yourself with getting distracted by the latest shiny new tool. Key take-aways: - Different approaches to setting up our software and why we chose the particular software tool we did - Philosophies of picking out or recommending software - How constantly looking at new tools can result in self-sabotage - Things Marie and Layla are doing in Notion and ClickUp that have really changed how productive or focused they’re able to be - Strong systems create stability – something that we all can use right now

On this episode we talk to Notion Jedi Marie Poulin about the free-form, flexible organization tool that is Notion.

Chatting with Marie Poulin, Oki Doki

THIS WEEK'S BEST THING: Hush of Storm & Sorrow releases March 16!  Podcast survey still going on! https://lpenelope.com/survey MENTIONS: - Jeffe Kennedy article on Writer's Block - https://sffseven.blogspot.com/2020/03/when-writers-block-means-to-dig-deeper.html - Don't Take the Monkey Pass by Kelly Robson - https://kellyrobson.com/dont-take-the-monkey-bypass/ - Clickup.com- Project Management - Smartsheet.com- More Project Management - Notion.so & Marie Poulin - https://mariepoulin.com/training/ - Hand cream (I recommend lavender) - http://www.beefolks.com/products/c2-handcream/   The My Imaginary Friends podcast is a weekly, behind the scenes look at the journey of a working author navigating traditional and self-publishing. Join fantasy and paranormal romance author L. Penelope as she shares insights on the writing life, creativity, inspiration, and this week's best thing. Subscribe and view show notes at: https://lpenelope.com/podcast Get the Footnotes newsletter - http://lpen.co/footnotes My Imaginary Friends is part of the Frolic Podcast Network. You can find more outstanding podcasts to subscribe to at http://frolic.media/podcasts! Website: https://www.lpenelope.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/leslyepenelope Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/leslyepenelope Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/authorlpenelope  Music credit: Say Good Night by Joakim Karud https://soundcloud.com/joakimkarudCreative Commons — Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported— CC BY-SA 3.0 http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/Music promoted by Audio Library https://youtu.be/SZkVShypKgM Affiliate Disclosure: I may receive compensation for links to products on this site either directly or indirectly via affiliate links. Heartspell Media, LLC is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com.

In this episode, I mention the following: Notion my coaching practice Notion videos by Marie Poulin on YouTube a previous episode on my 2020 planning tools the Ghostly Action Method the Get to Work Book planner Powersheets Prolific, my online community devoted to meaningful productivity come find me on InstagramPlease offer your feedback about the show or ideas for future episodes and topics by connecting with me on Twitter @Katie__Linder or by emailing me.If you listen to the podcast on iTunes, please take a moment to rate and/or review the show.

In this episode, I mention the following: Notion my coaching practice Notion videos by Marie Poulin on YouTube a previous episode on my 2020 planning tools the Ghostly Action Method the Get to Work Book planner Powersheets Prolific, my online community devoted to meaningful productivity come find me on InstagramPlease offer your feedback about the show or ideas for future episodes and topics by connecting with me on Twitter @Katie__Linder or by emailing me.If you listen to the podcast on iTunes, please take a moment to rate and/or review the show.

In this episode, I mention the following: Notion my coaching practice Notion videos by Marie Poulin on YouTube a previous episode on my 2020 planning tools the Ghostly Action Method the Get to Work Book planner Powersheets Prolific, my online community devoted to meaningful productivity come find me on InstagramPlease offer your feedback about the show or ideas for future episodes and topics by connecting with me on Twitter @Katie__Linder or by emailing me.If you listen to the podcast on iTunes, please take a moment to rate and/or review the show.

Today, my guest is Marie Poulin—our first 3 time guest here on the pod! Marie is not someone to miss the important questions. Her and her husband Ben are building Oki Doki with the life and work they want to lead top of mind. That choice has brought them face to face with some scrutiny from people with a scale-or-die mindset. Marie recently wrote a lengthy article about her choice not to scale—or, not to scale in any conventional way—so, of course, I wanted to bring her on the show while we're covering scale to talk about it! Marie and I chat about the hybrid business model Oki Doki has developed, the cocktail party conversation that shook her up, how she approaches finding a equilibrium with her energy, and how her focus on profitability has paid off. The post EP 234: Choosing Not To Scale With Oki Doki Co-Founder Marie Poulin appeared first on What Works.

I am so happy to introduce two good friends of mine. Marie Poulin, and Ben Borowski.Marie and Ben are co-founders of Oki Doki, as well as life partners.About Ben:Ben is a product designer and software developer with a fine arts background. After many years in agency-land, he started his own shop in 2010, and, after immigrating to Canada in 2014, founded Oki Doki with Marie. In his spare time he collects vinyl, pets shibas, and is a volunteer firefighter.About Marie:Marie helps small business owners bring their digital product & service ideas to life. She is a product and service strategist, and a master digital strategist. As if that isn’t enough, she’s an amazing designer and developer, as well and a permaculture enthusiast in her spare time.1:15: -- Current life situation and how Marie and Ben became life partners and business partners3:45 -- Finding out who has dominant skills in each area, and how to decide who takes the lead on what projects4:25 -- What were Ben and Marie doing before they joined forces.7:45 -- Check out Ben's journey on his immigration to Canada, taxes and all that's involved when moving a business across borders11:10 -- What it's like diving into the build not only of a digital product (SaaS), but structuring a full business with your partner at the same time.14:00 -- Why they choose to sell software as a subscription model, and how they came to solve the issue of the complexity of online courses.15:45 -- Here we dive in to the value that they provide as a boutique operation, supplying a premium customer experience, and scaling the unscalable.31:00 -- How a low cost of entry can lead into lifetime clients spending tens of thousands of dollars for further custom strategy and web experiences. 40:00 -- Creating more impactful work, scaling your happiness, flexibility, freedom and building a business on your terms44:00 -- How communication is when you work and live together. What routines and rituals do Marie and Ben abide by to keep on track, and how to handle disputes both inside and outside of the relationship47:00 -- Carrying over organizational techniques from the business into personal life, and vice versa. Work/life integration48:45 -- Routines, entrepreneurship, and setting up your daily routines.51:10 -- Startup and shutdown rituals54:55 -- Thinking about starting a business or project with a partner? Here's Marie's and Ben's tips for a successful relationship both inside and outside of the company.Where you can find them online:Marie:https://mariepoulin.com/https://twitter.com/mariepoulinhttps://www.instagram.com/mariepoulin/Ben:https://www.typeoneerror.com/https://twitter.com/typeoneerrorResources Mentioned:https://www.notion.so/http://tanyageisler.com/ (Imposter Complex Coach)https://jamesclear.com/atomic-habitshttp://www.calnewport.com/books/deep-work/ See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

I'm joined by Marie and Ben of Oki Doki. We chat about the pros and cons of Services and SaaS, the lessons they've learned building each kind of business model, and how to know which one might be right for you.

Marie Poulin is the co-founder of Oki Doki, a creative collaboration uniting Marie's strategy & design background with Ben, Marie's partner, and his design & programming background to form one kick-ass digital creative agency. They create purposeful, unique, and results-focused digital experiences that integrate your brand across all touch-points. Where Marie sees the big-picture possibilities, Ben handles the implementation details. They understand the digital landscape, and have helped launch hundreds of websites, products, online courses, web applications, games, and online experiences. They've seen behind the scenes of countless launches, and know what works (and what to avoid). They don't believe in formulas; they tailor solutions to our clients' business and lifestyle needs, so your products are built with growth, longevity, and sustainability in mind. Here's what we cover during episode 044: Why she chose design as her field and how it helped her start her career Her first job at a design studio, her role at the job and how the studio owner's mentorship helped her grow as a designer How she was able to shift from working full-time to working part-time in order to start her freelance design business The insider scoop on how her business works, and how she and her partner collaborate to get things done The type of clients she works with and the amazing business roadmap she creates for her clients The unknowns she helps fill for her clients when creating their websites How she started to work with clients with a course or productized service Why she and her partner decided to create a platform for courses Why it's not always true that a course will make you multiple six figures Why offering strategic roadmaps has helped her and what that looks like A behind-the-scenes look at how she helped one client sell courses, plan the strategy, and doing design work How designers can use their other skills to add value to their offerings Why paying attention and doing research is a good thing for designers What her business looks like today Tips for designers who want to grow their business Info on her mastermind that helps people create courses What she shares on each social media network Links mentioned: Marie's website   Like what you heard? Click here to subscribe + leave a review on iTunes. Click here to join the free community!  Let's connect on Instagram!

In this episode I talk to Marie Poulin about how creating awesome roadmaps for clients (using Notion) has changed her business.

Marie Poulin, co-founder of digital agency Oki Doki, talks about product evolution, hybrid product/service delivery, and how she is optimizing her business based on what works. The post EP 131: Optimizing What Works For Your Small Business With Oki Doki Co-Founder Marie Poulin appeared first on What Works.

In this episode of Startups For The Rest Of Us, Mike interviews Marie Poulin, chief designer and digital strategist at Oki Doki, about her journey from consulting to products and services.       

Becoming comfortable and confident in who you are is not just about who you are today. Sometimes, it takes us looking into the hard parts of our past to see how it has shaped us. My guest this week is Marie Poulin, a designer and digital strategist who tends to focus on helping other people reach their full potential. Once Marie began to turn that personal development onto herself, she discovered a key to her past that changed everything.  Growing up with a parent suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder radically changes your view of the world. Marie and I bonded instantly over this shared experience, and we hope that by sharing our stories, we can inspire and encourage more individuals who have been hurt. Marie is an open book; her life has been anything but easy. The imprint of her difficult childhood is still something she struggles with today, but it’s a battle worth fighting.      Now, Marie is redoubling her efforts to continue her personal journey of healing and growth. Listen this week as Marie shares her bold 100 Day video initiative, her brave experiences with improv, and making new shifts in her business. There’s a little something for everyone in Marie’s story, so prepare to be encouraged! Listen in to Hear Marie and I Talk About The impacts of growing up with a Borderline Personality Parent The balance between Vulnerability and how much should be shared on Social Media. Finding the courage to speak through improv classes and 100 Day challenges.  Resources + People Mentioned  The Body Keeps The Score by Bessel van der Kolk: https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/B00OBT7KAO/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1507836936&sr=1-1&keywords=the+body+keeps+the+score Marie’s Medium Article: https://medium.com/@mariepoulin/i-am-a-child-of-a-borderline-mother-5568fc793766 Stop Walking on Eggshells: https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901 The Meisner technique: http://www.themeisnercenter.com/history.html Marie’s Website: http://mariepoulin.com

The best business relationships are built on the same the foundations as romantic ones: clear communication, trust, a mutual sense of value, hugs... So why are most of us afraid of working with our spouse?  In today's show, Bryce talks to Marie Poulin and Ben Borowski, who live together, laugh together, love together and, yes, work together. Find out how they run a business that fits their lives while working remotely!  Links from today's show: http://weareokidoki.com http://doki.io http://digitalstrategyschool.com http://www.mariepoulin.com http://typeoneerror.com -- This episode is sponsored by AND.CO, the freelancer's resource! They offer great tools for freelancers, including curated job lists, time tracking and invoicing software, contracts, free guides and more!    -- Want to support the show? Leave us a review on iTunes or recommend us to a friend. It helps immensely. 

Marie Poulin is a successful strategist and designer who joins us today in a special episode where we do a “movie style” presentation of She Means Business starring: Marie Poulin’s life. Join us today for an exciting adventure and a chance to win two amazing giveaways! Outline of this Episode [1:13] Intro to this episode: Marie Poulin’s entrepreneurial journey: How we get intentional about living our dream lives. [2:03] Marie Poulin’s story about why she decided to become an entrepreneur. [5:45] Marie’s first steps -- Willingness to put yourself out there. [7:48] The “Internship phase” - just seeing what you can do and what your processes are like. [9:13] Marie Poulin talks about what kept her going through the massive journey of personal growth. [11:25] How the weight lifted when systems were in place, and how Marie was then able to sell her process to others. [13:58] Minimize time spent, by improving processes. [15:15] The factor that gave Marie key breakthroughs. [16:25] Building a business is 95% mindset and who we are. [18:05] The other 5%. Marie Poulin’s top tips for anyone who is launching a business. [18:51] Be intentional: Design life and business around what you value. [21:19] The biggest lesson Marie has learned along her journey. [22:57] Leave a comment on the blog for a chance of winning Marie’s ebook or course. Resources and People Mentioned Digital Strategy School Oki Doki Systems Rock (Natasha Vorompovia) Simon Sinek Christopher Butler

Marie Poulin is a successful strategist and designer who joins us today in a special episode where we do a “movie style” presentation of She Means Business starring: Marie Poulin’s life. Join us today for an exciting adventure and a chance to win two amazing giveaways! Outline of this Episode [1:13] Intro to this episode: Marie Poulin’s entrepreneurial journey: How we get intentional about living our dream lives. [2:03] Marie Poulin’s story about why she decided to become an entrepreneur. [5:45] Marie’s first steps -- Willingness to put yourself out there. [7:48] The “Internship phase” - just seeing what you can do and what your processes are like. [9:13] Marie Poulin talks about what kept her going through the massive journey of personal growth. [11:25] How the weight lifted when systems were in place, and how Marie was then able to sell her process to others. [13:58] Minimize time spent, by improving processes. [15:15] The factor that gave Marie key breakthroughs. [16:25] Building a business is 95% mindset and who we are. [18:05] The other 5%. Marie Poulin’s top tips for anyone who is launching a business. [18:51] Be intentional: Design life and business around what you value. [21:19] The biggest lesson Marie has learned along her journey. [22:57] Leave a comment on the blog for a chance of winning Marie’s ebook or course. Resources and People Mentioned Digital Strategy School Oki Doki Systems Rock (Natasha Vorompovia) Simon Sinek Christopher Butler

In this episode, Tara speaks with Marie Poulin. Marie is a designer and digital strategist. She’s also the creator of Digital Strategy School and the co-founder of Oki Doki, the software company behind Doki a unique learning management system for interactive course creators. Marie and Tara talk about the difference between digital strategy and web […] The post Episode 73 – Discovering a Need And Filling–Twice–with Digital Strategy School & Doki Creator Marie Poulin appeared first on What Works.

Marie Poulin is a designer, digital strategist, and educator who helps purpose-driven entrepreneurs bring their ideas to life in the digital space. With a background in both small agency experience and 7+ years of self-employment, she founded Digital Strategy School, an online mentorship program that helps designers become more strategic business owners. She also co-founded Oki Doki with her partner Ben, where they help entrepreneurs productize their services through the creation of branded online courses, programs, and mentorship experiences. Marie is also a friend of mine who has taken incredible strides to combat negative thinking from her childhood that threatened to obliterate her success. You’ll appreciate her candor in this interview, as I did.

This time my co-host Marie Poulin steps into SaaS founder shoes and shares the story of Doki, her platform for courses with mentorship and mastermind features. You'll learn what problems Marie and her co-founder Ben faced on the early stage of product development, and how they successfully built a solution that targets teachers, but faces students (a typical challenge for course software). Podcast feed: subscribe to http://simplecast.fm/podcasts/1441/rss in your favorite podcast app. Show Notes Doki — Marie's SaaS product for delivering online courses Teachable — another popular course platform we're talking about Follow Marie on Twitter: @mariepoulin

In this Bonus episode, Marie & Prescott sit down to discuss the book "Deep Work" by Cal Newport. Together with the live audience consisting mainly of Marie's students from Digital Strategy School, the two dive into the book's topics and themes, including social media distraction, time-blocking, retreats, accountability partners, single-tasking, meditation, and more. The conversation also strays to general purpose productivity chatter, along with answering some Q&A from the audience. Get in touch with Marie via digitalstrategyschool.com and Prescott via busycreator.com

In this episode we follow Marie Poulin's story of creating her famous online school for designers. She tells us how she got her first group of students for Digital Strategy School, how she experimented with pricing models, and what challenges she encountered on her way to success. This episode is precious for those who want to start their own training programs. Show Notes Digital Strategy School — Marie's online school for designers Special discount for our listeners Follow Marie on Twitter: @mariepoulin

Let's welcome Marie Poulin, our co-host for the next few episodes! Marie is a digital strategist and a founder of multiple businesses, including the famous Digital Strategy School. Today we'll hear Marie's success story as a designer and product creator, and figure out how she manages so many products at once. Show Notes Digital Strategy School — Marie's famous training program for designers Oki Doki Digital — the business where Marie and Ben help entrepreneurs create successful online programs Doki — Marie's SaaS for digital courses and mentorship programs Follow Marie on Twitter: @mariepoulin

On today’s episode we discuss the production of online courses with Marie Poulin. Marie is a former designer who became a digital strategist and co-founded the course-building site, Oki Doki. As an experienced guide, Marie walks us through the stages of online course production.   In discussing the production of online courses, we cover all the important steps one must take to be a successful instructor. Marie drives home the importance of market research (i.e. is your course topic in demand) and also the steps to building a product that fully engages your customers. Marie and Avery also discuss the pros and cons of hosting with user-friendly, customizable sites or going it alone. After this episode, listeners will be ready to set forth and create interactive, in-demand, and unique courses with confidence.  Episode Highlights:  Check your motives: Are they altruistic or simply about the money?  How to build a product customers need  Market research steps  Focusing on your strengths as an instructor (are you best with audio, video, or written content?)  Levels of course interactivity  Where to build and host your course  Beta testing  Promoting your course  If you would like to work with Marie Poulin, you may contact her at MariePoulin.com or go straight to her company’s website, OkiDoki.   Resources:  18 Reasons Why You Shouldn’t Build an Online Course by Breanne Dyck  OkiDoki  Udemy  Skillshare  Creative Live  Wish List  Member Press  Memberium  Course Cats  Thinkific  Teachable  Teachery  Pathwright  Kajabi 

01:14 - Ray Wenderlich Introduction Twitter Blog 01:23 - Mic Pringle Introduction Twitter GitHub The raywenderlich.com Podcast 01:40 - Greg Heo Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog 01:47 - The Conception of Ray’s Tutorial Website and The Tutorial Team Ray Wenderlich: Tutorials for iPhone / iOS / Developers and Gamers EA Games 05:58 - Maintaining High Quality and Consistency 07:26 - Tips & Advice for Writing a Tutorial 09:12 - Avoiding User Frustration 11:54 - Writing Books 13:00 - Traditional vs Self-Publishing Pragmatic Programmers 14:31 - Book Content vs Site Tutorials 15:41 - Starter Kits 16:33 - Transitioning to Swift 19:47 - Error/Bug Support 21:06 - Branching Out Into Other Technologies 22:21 - Selling Introductory vs Advanced Tutorials 25:15 - Choosing Topics 26:08 - RWDevCon 31:48 - Working with Ray and on raywenderlich.com 36:31 - Maximizing Marketing Opportunities 39:46 - Writing Tutorials for Mainstream Apps & Games 41:08 - Highlights Video Tutorials iOS Games by Tutorials Second Edition: Beginning 2D iOS Game Development with Swift iOS Animations by Tutorials by Marin Todorov   Episode Resources The Freelancers' Show Episode #164: Teaching and Learning Courses with Breanne Dyck The Freelancers' Show Episode #165: Strategy and Project Management with Marie Poulin JavaScript Jabber Episode #173: Online Learning with Gregg Pollack Picks WinObjC (Andrew) Friday Q&A 2015-07-31: Tagged Pointer Strings by Mike Ash (Andrew) The Web Platform Podcast Episode 56: Building Your Brand with Charles Max Wood (Chuck) Developer On Fire Episode 017 - Charles Max Wood - Get Involved and Try New Things (Chuck) Skype’s Inside Out Emojis (Chuck) little bites of cocoa (Ray) The insanely slow road to building a blog (and why most people give up) by Belle Beth Cooper (Ray) What the Best College Teachers Do by Ken Bain (Greg) What’s Your Learning Style? Quiz (Greg) Brian Gilham's WatchKit Resources (Mic) Exploding Kittens (Mic)

01:14 - Ray Wenderlich Introduction Twitter Blog 01:23 - Mic Pringle Introduction Twitter GitHub The raywenderlich.com Podcast 01:40 - Greg Heo Introduction Twitter GitHub Blog 01:47 - The Conception of Ray’s Tutorial Website and The Tutorial Team Ray Wenderlich: Tutorials for iPhone / iOS / Developers and Gamers EA Games 05:58 - Maintaining High Quality and Consistency 07:26 - Tips & Advice for Writing a Tutorial 09:12 - Avoiding User Frustration 11:54 - Writing Books 13:00 - Traditional vs Self-Publishing Pragmatic Programmers 14:31 - Book Content vs Site Tutorials 15:41 - Starter Kits 16:33 - Transitioning to Swift 19:47 - Error/Bug Support 21:06 - Branching Out Into Other Technologies 22:21 - Selling Introductory vs Advanced Tutorials 25:15 - Choosing Topics 26:08 - RWDevCon 31:48 - Working with Ray and on raywenderlich.com 36:31 - Maximizing Marketing Opportunities 39:46 - Writing Tutorials for Mainstream Apps & Games 41:08 - Highlights Video Tutorials iOS Games by Tutorials Second Edition: Beginning 2D iOS Game Development with Swift iOS Animations by Tutorials by Marin Todorov   Episode Resources The Freelancers' Show Episode #164: Teaching and Learning Courses with Breanne Dyck The Freelancers' Show Episode #165: Strategy and Project Management with Marie Poulin JavaScript Jabber Episode #173: Online Learning with Gregg Pollack Picks WinObjC (Andrew) Friday Q&A 2015-07-31: Tagged Pointer Strings by Mike Ash (Andrew) The Web Platform Podcast Episode 56: Building Your Brand with Charles Max Wood (Chuck) Developer On Fire Episode 017 - Charles Max Wood - Get Involved and Try New Things (Chuck) Skype’s Inside Out Emojis (Chuck) little bites of cocoa (Ray) The insanely slow road to building a blog (and why most people give up) by Belle Beth Cooper (Ray) What the Best College Teachers Do by Ken Bain (Greg) What’s Your Learning Style? Quiz (Greg) Brian Gilham's WatchKit Resources (Mic) Exploding Kittens (Mic)

Check out RailsClips!   00:58 - Marie Poulin Introduction Twitter Blog Digital Strategy School Doki 01:42 - Marie’s Background and Digital Strategy School Evolution 04:57 - Working with Breanne Dyck The Freelancers' Show Episode #164: Teaching and Learning Courses wit Breanne Dyck 06:55 - Freelancer => Strategic Business Owner “Everything that’s on your plate is there because you said yes to it.” -- Danielle LaPorte 09:33 - Mindset: Looking At Your Business as a Business (Getting Serious) 14:55 - Business Audit: Why are you doing what you are doing? What do you want to accomplish with your business? Tara Gentile: Know Where You’re Headed (Your Chief Initiative) Monthly, Quarterly, Yearly Check-ins Changing Your Business Takes Time 21:38 - Execution 24:27 - Accountability and Discipline BJ Fogg The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg  What’s happening now? What’s happening later? “Work with your energy” Track Tasks [Skillshare] Get Stuff Done Like A Boss: Design Your Workflow and Double Your Productivity in 21 Days with Tiago Forte What is at stake? (F This Moment) 29:13 - Making Tough Decisions 35:18 - Mastermind Groups Entreprogrammers 44:44 - Doki Picks Vornado 530 Compact Whole Room Air Circulator (Eric) Paracord (Chuck) Soto Pocket Torch (Chuck) The Strategic Designer: Tools & Techniques for Managing the Design Process by David Holston (Marie) Creative Confidence by Tom and David Kelley (Marie) [TED Talk] Brene Brown: The Power of Vulnerability (Marie)

Check out RailsClips!   00:58 - Marie Poulin Introduction Twitter Blog Digital Strategy School Doki 01:42 - Marie’s Background and Digital Strategy School Evolution 04:57 - Working with Breanne Dyck The Freelancers' Show Episode #164: Teaching and Learning Courses wit Breanne Dyck 06:55 - Freelancer => Strategic Business Owner “Everything that’s on your plate is there because you said yes to it.” -- Danielle LaPorte 09:33 - Mindset: Looking At Your Business as a Business (Getting Serious) 14:55 - Business Audit: Why are you doing what you are doing? What do you want to accomplish with your business? Tara Gentile: Know Where You’re Headed (Your Chief Initiative) Monthly, Quarterly, Yearly Check-ins Changing Your Business Takes Time 21:38 - Execution 24:27 - Accountability and Discipline BJ Fogg The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business by Charles Duhigg  What’s happening now? What’s happening later? “Work with your energy” Track Tasks [Skillshare] Get Stuff Done Like A Boss: Design Your Workflow and Double Your Productivity in 21 Days with Tiago Forte What is at stake? (F This Moment) 29:13 - Making Tough Decisions 35:18 - Mastermind Groups Entreprogrammers 44:44 - Doki Picks Vornado 530 Compact Whole Room Air Circulator (Eric) Paracord (Chuck) Soto Pocket Torch (Chuck) The Strategic Designer: Tools & Techniques for Managing the Design Process by David Holston (Marie) Creative Confidence by Tom and David Kelley (Marie) [TED Talk] Brene Brown: The Power of Vulnerability (Marie)

For this Snippet, we discuss Why You Need to Design the Experience of Working With You by Marie Poulin. (http://www.pagebreakpodcast.com/snippets/design-the-experience-of-working-with-you)

 Marie Poulin (@MariePoulin) is a Digital Strategist and Web Designer based in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. Following her early work in a small Toronto-based studio, Marie set out on her own and established a solo web design practice before making a more recent transition to strategy. Marie has taken on more self-initiated projects, launchingDigital Strategy School, powered by Doki, the online teaching platform she helped build. Along the way she's become resourceful and has had to teach herself a host of new skills. Marie can be seen on her site, MariePoulin.com Show Notes & Links Marie formerly called herself a “Digital Craftswoman” (because it's more than just craft these days) Lately, Marie does 60% her work; 40% client work Oki-Doki Digital Strategy School, for designers – 10–12 beta testers “To teach is to learn twice” York-Sheridan joint program in Design Thinkhouse Design Getting Things Done, by David Allen Work The System, by Sam Carpenter Erica Heinz & Niki Brown, web designer guests on The Busy Creator Joel Duggan & Laura Thomas, Canadian guests on The Busy Creator Marie is not a morning person, so she's set up her workflows around this Tools Basecamp, for client management RescueTime, tracks what you're working on Systematic Success Get Stuff Done Like A Boss: Design Your Workflow and Double Your Productivity in 21 Days, on Skillshare Amazon, for lawn-care equipment SASS Flow app IFTTT Evernote Google Docs/Drive Wishlist, WordPress plugin TextExpander ClipMenu TextMate or Sublime Text, text editors for web design Timely app Pillow Fight Squamish, BC Gaelic Football Fitbit, which nags me during the day Techniques Be mindful of different working styles and personalities in a multi-disciplinary team Facebook groups for professional insight Share your behind-the-scenes process will help your peers and the industry Use Wishlist to have your clients become “members”, with on-boarding and training built in Set up a secret Pinterest board to collaborate with clients Record your screen to teach staff necessary tasks Number tasks and task components for easy organization No meetings on Mondays Use a Vision Board — a place to list goals for the month or year, big plans and project. Habits Take it upon yourself to learn new skills Pick up good habits from the jobs you have; leave the bad ones Learn best practices [for programming] from a true developer Design your morning routine, even if it's a later morning Share your processes with people, even if it's imperfect Keep a “praise” folder in Evernote, email, etc.