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Stuart Pollington was born in the United Kingdom and grew up there. After college he began working and along the way he decided he wanted to travel a bit. He worked in Las Vegas for six months and then had the opportunity to work for a year in Australia. He then ended up doing some work in Asia and fell in love with Thailand. For the past 20 years he has lived in Thailand where he helped start several entrepreneurial endeavors and he began two companies which are quite alive and well.   My discussion with Stuart gave us the opportunity to explore his ideas of leadership and entrepreneurial progress including what makes a good entrepreneur. He says, for example, that anyone who wishes to grow and be successful should be willing to ask many questions and always be willing to learn. Stuart's insights are quite valuable and worth your time. I believe you will find most useful Stuart's thoughts and ideas.     About the Guest:   Stuart Pollington is a seasoned entrepreneur and digital strategist who has spent over two decades building businesses across the ASEAN region. Originally from the UK, Stuart relocated to Thailand more than 20 years ago and has since co-founded and led multiple ventures, including Easson Energy and Smart Digital Group. His experience spans digital marketing, AI, and sustainability, but at the heart of it all is his passion for building ideas from the ground up—and helping others do the same.   Throughout his career, Stuart has worn many hats: Sales Director, CTO, Founder, Digital Marketer and growth consultant. He thrives in that messy, unpredictable space where innovation meets real-world execution, often working closely with new businesses to help them launch, grow, and adapt in challenging environments. From Bangkok boardrooms to late-night brainstorms, he's seen firsthand how persistence and curiosity can turn setbacks into springboards.   Stuart's journey hasn't always been smooth—and that's exactly the point. He's a firm believer that failure is an essential part of the learning process. Whether it's a marketing campaign that flopped or a business idea that never got off the ground, each misstep has helped shape his approach and fueled his drive to keep moving forward. Ways to connect with Stuart:   https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuartpollington/ www.smart-digital.co.th www.smart-traffic.com.au www.evodigital.com.au https://easson.energy     About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone. Once again, it is time for an episode of unstoppable mindset. And today we have a guest, Stuart pullington, who is in Thailand, so that is a little bit of a distance away, but be due to the magic of science and technology, we get to have a real, live, immediate conversation without any delay or anything like that, just because science is a beautiful thing. So Stuart is an entrepreneur. He's been very much involved in helping other people. He's formed companies, but he likes to help other entrepreneurs grow and do the same things that he has been doing. So I am really glad that he consented to be on unstoppable mindset. And Stuart, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. And thank you for being here,   Stuart Pollington ** 02:14 Ryan, thank you for the invitation, Michael, I'm looking forward to it.   Michael Hingson ** 02:18 And Stuart is originally from the United Kingdom, and now for the past, what 20 years you've been in Thailand? Yes, over   Stuart Pollington ** 02:27 a bit over 20 years now. So I think I worked out the other day. I'm 47 in a couple of weeks, and I've spent more than half of my life now over in Asia.   Michael Hingson ** 02:39 So why do you like Thailand so much as opposed to being in England?   Stuart Pollington ** 02:46 It's a good question. I mean, don't get me wrong, I do, I do like the UK. And I really, I really like where I came, where I'm from. I'm from the south coast, southeast, a place called Brighton. So, you know, pretty good, popular place in the UK because of where we're situated, by the, you know, on the on the sea, we get a lot of, you know, foreign tourists and students that come over, etc. I mean, Asia. Why? Why Asia? I mean, I originally went traveling. I did six months in America, actually, first in Las Vegas, which was a good experience, and then I did a bit of traveling in America, from the West Coast over to the East Coast. I did a year in Australia, like a working holiday. And then on my way back to the UK, I had a two week stop over in Thailand, and I went down to the beaches, really enjoyed kind of the culture and the way of life here, if you like. And ended up staying for a year the first time. And then after that year, went back to the UK for a little bit and decided that actually, no, I kind of liked the I liked the lifestyle, I liked the people, I liked the culture in Thailand, and decided that was where I wanted to kind of be, and made my way back   Michael Hingson ** 04:13 there you are. Well, I can tell you, Las Vegas isn't anything like it was 20 years ago. It is. It is totally different. It's evolved. It's very expensive today compared to the way it used to be. You can't, for example, go into a hotel and get an inexpensive buffet or anything like that anymore. Drinks at the hum on the on the casino floors are not like they used to be, or any of that. It's it's definitely a much higher profit, higher cost. Kind of a place to go. I've never been that needy to go to Las Vegas and spend a lot of time. I've been there for some meetings, but I've never really spent a lot of time in Las Vegas. It's a fascinating town. Um. One of my favorite barbecue places in New York, opened up a branch in Las Vegas, a place called Virgil's best barbecue in the country. And when they opened the restaurant, the Virgil's restaurant in Las Vegas, my understanding is that the people who opened it for Virgil's had to first spend six months in New York to make sure that they did it exactly the same way. And I'll tell you, the food tastes the same. It's just as good as New York. So that that would draw me to Las Vegas just to go to Virgil's. That's kind of fun. Well, tell us a little about the early Stuart kind of growing up and all that, and what led you to do the kinds of things you do, and so on. But tell us about the early Stuart, if you would.   Stuart Pollington ** 05:47 Yeah, no problem. I mean, was quite sporty, very sporty. When I was younger, used to play a lot of what we call football, which would be soccer over, over your way. So, you know, very big, younger into, like the the team sports and things like that, did well at school, absolutely in the lessons, not so great when it came to kind of exams and things like that. So I, you know, I learned a lot from school, but I don't think especially back then, and I think potentially the same in other countries. I don't think that the the education system was set up to cater for everyone, and obviously that's difficult. I do feel that. I do feel that maybe now people are a bit more aware of how individual, different individuals perform under different circumstances and need different kind of ways to motivate, etc. So, yeah, I mean, I that that was kind of me at school. Did a lot of sport that, you know was good in the lessons, but maybe not so good at the PAM studying, if you like, you know the studying that you need to do for exams where you really have to kind of cram and remember all that knowledge. And I also found with school that it was interesting in the lessons, but I never really felt that there was any kind of, well, we're learning this, but, and this is how you kind of utilize it, or this is the practical use of what we're learning for life, if that, if that makes sense. Yeah. So, you know, like when we were learning, and I was always very good at maths, and I love numbers, and you know, when we were learning things in maths and things like that, I just never felt that it was explained clearly what you would actually use that for. So when you're learning different equations, it wasn't really well explained how you would then utilize that later in life, which I think, for me personally, I think that would have made things more interesting, and would have helped to kind of understand which areas you should focus on. And, you know, maybe more time could have been spent understanding what an individual is good at, and then kind of explaining, well, if you're good at this, or passionate with this, then this is what you could do with it. I think I remember sitting down with our I can't they would have been our advisors at the time, where you sit down and talk about what you want to do after school, and the question was always, what do you want to be? Whereas, you know, for me personally, I think it would have been more useful to understand, what are your passion you know? What are you passionate about? What are you good at? What do you enjoy doing? And then saying, Well, you know, you could actually do this. This is something you could do, you know. So you could take that and you could become, this could be the sort of career you could do, if that makes sense. So anyway, that that was kind of like, like school and everything like that. And then after school, you know, I didn't, I worked for a couple of years. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. Funnily enough, there was actually a Toys R Us opening in Brighton in one of the summers she went and got, I got a summer job there at Toys R Us. And I really enjoyed that. Actually, that was my first step into actually doing a bit of sales. I worked on the computers. So we were, you know, selling the computers to people coming in. And when we opened the store, it's a brand new store. You know, it was just when the pay as you go. Mobile phones were kind of just coming out. We had Vodafone analog, but it was the non contract where you could just buy top up cards when they first came out, and I remember we were the first store, because we were a new store. We were the first store to have those phones for sale. And I remember just being really determined to just try and be the first person to just sell the first ever mobile phone within Toys R Us. And I remember I started in the morning, and I think my lunch was at, say, 12, but I missed my lunch, and I think I was up till about one, one or 2pm until finally I managed to find someone who, who was, who me, had that need or wanted the phone, and so I made that first sale for toys r us in the UK with the mobile phone, and that that, in itself, taught me a lot about, you know, not giving up and kind of pushing through and persevering a bit. So yeah, that that was kind of my, my early part. I was always interested in other cultures, though. I was always interested at school, you know, I do projects on Australia, Egypt and things like that. And, you know, in the UK, when you get to about, I think similar, similar to America, but, you know, in the UK, where you either before or after uni, it's quite usual to do, like, a gap year or do a bit of traveling. And I just kind of never got round to it. And I had friends that went and did a gap year or years working holiday in Australia, and I remember when they came back, and I was like, Yeah, you know, that's that's actually what I want to do. So when I was about 22 it was at that point, and I'd worked my way up by them from Toys R Us, I'd already moved around the country, helped them open new stores in different locations in the UK. Was working in their busiest story of in Europe, which was in London. But I decided I wanted to kind of I wanted to go and travel. So I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying, Look, this is what I want to do. I had a friend who was traveling, and he was meeting up with his sister, and his sister happened to be in Las Vegas, which is how we, we kind of ended up there. And I remember talking to my area manager at the time and saying that I want to leave, I want to go and do this. And I remember him sat down just trying to kind of kind of talk me out of it, because they obviously saw something in me. They wanted me to continue on the path I was doing with them, which was going, you know, towards the management, the leadership kind of roles. And I remember the conversation because I was saying to him, Look, I want, I want to, I want to go and travel. I really want to go. I'm going to go to Las Vegas or to travel America. And his response to me was, well, you know, if you stay here for another x years, you can get to this position, then you can go and have a holiday in America, and you could, you can get a helicopter, you can fly over the Grand Canyon, and kind of really trying to sell me into staying in that path that they wanted me to go on. And I thought about that, and I just said, No, I don't want to just go on a holiday. I really just want to immerse myself, and I just want to go there, and I want to live the experience. And so yeah, I I left that position, went to Las Vegas, ended up staying six months. I did three months. Did a bit in Mexico, came back for another three months. And that's where I met a lot of different people from different countries. And I really kind of got that initial early bug of wanting to go out and seeing a bit more of the world. And it was at that point in my life where I was in between, kind of the end of education, beginning of my business career, I guess, and I had that gap where it was the opportunity to do it. So I did, so yeah, I did that time in America, then back to the UK, then a year in Australia, which was great. And then, yeah, like I said, on the way home, is where I did my stop over. And then just obviously fell in love with Thailand and Asia, and that became my mindset after that year going back to the UK. My mindset was, how do I get back to Thailand? You know, how do I get back to Asia? I also spent a bit of time, about five years in the Philippines as well. So, you know, I like, I like, I like the region, I like the people, I like the kind of way of life, if you like.   Michael Hingson ** 14:23 So when you were working in the Philippines, and then when you got to Thailand, what did you do?   Stuart Pollington ** 14:30 Yeah, so I mean, it all starts with Thailand, really. So I mean, originally, when I first came over, I was, I was teaching and doing, trying to kind of some teaching and voluntary stuff. When I came back, I did a similar thing, and then I got, I get, I wouldn't say lucky, I guess I had an opportunity to work for a company that was, we were, we were basically selling laptop. Laptops in the UK, student laptops, they were refurbished like your IBM or your Dell, and we they would be refurbished and resold normally, to students. And we also, we also used to sell the the laptop batteries. So we would sell like the IBM or Dell laptop batteries, but we sell the OEM, you know, so we would get them direct from, from from China, so like third party batteries, if you like. And back in the day, this is just over 20 years ago, but back then, early days of what we would call digital marketing and online marketing. And you know, our website in the UK, we used to rank, you know, number one for keywords like IBM, refurb, refurbished. IBM, laptop Dell, laptop battery, IBM battery. So we used to rank above the brands, and that was my introduction, if you like, to digital marketing and how it's possible to make money online. And then that kind of just morphed into, well, you know, if we're able to do this for our own business, why can't we do this for other businesses? And that would have been the, you know, the early owners and founders of the of smart digital and smart traffic seeing that opportunity and transitioning from running one business and doing well to helping multiple businesses do well online and that, that was the bit I really enjoy. You know, talking to different business owners in different industries. A lot of what we do is very similar, but then you have slightly different approaches, depending on them, the location and the type of business that people are in.   Michael Hingson ** 16:47 Well, you, you have certainly been been around. You formed your own or you formed countries along the way, like Eastern energy and smart digital group. What were they? Right?   Stuart Pollington ** 16:59 Yeah. So, so yeah, going back to the computer website. Out of that came a company called smart traffic that was put together by the free original founders, guy called Simon, guy called Ben, and a guy called Andy. And so they originally came together and put and had created, if you like, smart traffic. And smart traffic is a digital marketing agency originally started with SEO, the organic, you know, so when someone's searching for something in Google, we help get websites to the top of that page so that people can then click on them, and hopefully they get a lead or a sale, or whatever they're they're trying to do with that, with that traffic. So, yeah, they originally put that together. I being here and on the ground. I then started working within the business. So I was running the student website, if you like, the laptop website, and then got the opportunity from very early on to work within the Digital Marketing Company. I've got a sales background, but I'm also quite technical, and I would say I'm good with numbers, so a little bit analytical as well. So the opportunity came. We had opened an office in the Philippines, and it had been open for about, I think, 18 months or two years, and it was growing quite big, and they wanted someone else to go over there to support Simon, who was one of the founders who opened the office over there. And that's when I got the opportunity. So I was over in Cebu for what, five, five and a half years. At one point, we had an office there with maybe 120 staff, and we did a lot of the technical SEO, and we were delivering campaigns for the UK. So we had a company in the UK. We had one in Australia, and then also locally, within the kind of Thai market. And that was fantastic. I really enjoyed working over in the Philippines again. Culture enjoyed the culture enjoyed the people. Really enjoyed, you know, just getting stuck in and working on different client campaigns. And then eventually that brought me back to Thailand. There was a restructure of the company we, you know, we moved a lot of the a lot of the deliverables around. So I was then brought back to Thailand, which suited me, because I wanted to come back to Thailand at that point. And then I had the opportunity. So the previous owners, they, they created a couple of other businesses in Thailand. They're one that very big one that went really well, called dot property, so they ended up moving back to the UK. Long story short, about maybe 10 years ago, I got the opportunity to take over smart digital in Thailand and smart traffic in Australia, which are both the. Marketing agencies that I'd been helping to run. So I had the opportunity to take those over and assume ownership of those, which was fantastic. And then I've obviously been successfully running those for the last 10 years, both here and and in Australia, we do a lot of SEO. We do a lot of Google ads and social campaigns and web design, and we do a lot of white label. So we we sit in the background for other agencies around the world. So there'll be agencies in, you know, maybe Australia, the UK, America, some in Thailand as well, who are very strong at maybe social or very strong ads, but maybe not as strong on the SEO so we, we just become their SEO team. We'll run and manage the campaigns for them, and then we'll deliver all the reporting with their branding on so that they can then plug that into what they do for their clients and deliver to their clients. So that's all fantastic. I mean, I love, I love digital marketing. I love, I love looking at the data and, you know, working out how things work. And we've been very successful over the years, which then led on to that opportunity that you mentioned and you asked about with Eastern energy. So that was about three and a half years ago, right right around the COVID time, I had a meeting, if you like, in in Bangkok, with a guy called Robert Eason. He was actually on his way to the UK with his family, and kind of got stuck in Bangkok with all the lockdowns, and he was actually on his way to the UK to start Eastern energy there. And Eastern energy is basically, it's an energy monitoring and energy efficiency company. It's basically a UK design solution where we have a hardware technology that we retrofit, which is connects, like to the MDB, and then we have sensors that we place around the location, and for every piece of equipment that we connect to this solution, we can see in real time, second by second, the energy being used. We can then take that data, and we use machine learning and AI to actually work with our clients to identify where their energy wastage is, and then work with them to try and reduce that energy wastage, and that reduces the amount of energy they're using, which reduces their cost, but also, very importantly, reduces the CO two emissions. And so I had this chance encounter with Robert, and I remember, at the time I was we were talking about how this solution worked, and I was like, oh, that's quite interesting. You know, I've I, you know, the the digital marketing is going quite well. Could be time to maybe look at another kind of opportunity, if you like. So I had a look at how it worked. I looked at the kind of ideal clients and what sort of other projects were being delivered by the group around the world. And there were a couple of big name brands over in there. So because it works quite well with qsrs, like quick service restaurant, so like your fast food chains, where you have multiple locations. And it just so happened that one of the in case studies they'd had, I just through my networking, I do a lot of networking with the chambers in Bangkok. Through my networking, I actually happened to know some of the people in the right positions at some of these companies. I'd never had the opportunity to work with them, with the digital marketing because most of them would have their own in house teams, and I just saw it as an opportunity to maybe do something with this here. So I, you know, I said to Robert, give me a week. And then a week later, I said, right, we've got a meeting with this company. It's international fast food brand. They've got 1700 locations in Thailand. So when ended that meeting, very, very positive. And after that meeting, I think Robert and I just I said to Robert, you know, currently you have a plan to go to the UK. Currently you're stuck in Thailand with lockdown, with COVID. We don't know what's going to happen and where everything's going to go. Why don't we do it here? And that's where it originally came from. We decided, let's, you know, let's, let's give that a shot over here. Since then, we've brought in two other partners. There's now four of us, a guy called Gary and a guy called Patrick. And yeah, I mean, it's a bit slower than I thought it would be, but it's in the last. Six months, it's really kind of picked up, which has been fantastic. And for me, it was, for me, it was just two things that made sense. One, I love I love data, and I love the technology. So I love the fact that we're now helping businesses by giving them data that they don't currently have the access to, you know. So when you get, you know, when you when you get your electricity bill, you get it the month after you've used everything, don't you, and it just tells you how much you've got to pay. And there's not really much choice. So what we're doing is giving them the visibility in real time to see where their energy is going and be able to make changes in real time to reduce that energy wastage. And I just thought, Well, look, this is great. It's very techie. It's using, you know, date big data, which I love, using machine learning and AI, which is great. And then I also, you know, I do care about the environment. I got two young kids, so I do care about what's happening around the world. And for me, that was a win, win. You know, I got to, I got to do something with tech that was new and exciting. It's definitely new to this region, even though it's been new to the same sort of technology has been utilized in Europe and America for a number of years. So it felt new, it felt exciting. And it's also good, you know, because we are helping people on the path to net zero. You know, how can we get to net zero? How can we reduce these emissions? So, yeah, I mean that that, for me, is   Stuart Pollington ** 26:40 two different types of, in my opinion, entrepreneurial kind of journeys. One is that the with the digital marketing is, is all it's a story of working my way up to then reach the top, if you like. And whereas Eastern energy is more of a traditional kind of as an entrepreneur, this is, this is an idea. Let's do something with it and get an exciting about it. So two kind of, two different approaches to get to the ownership stage, if you like.   Michael Hingson ** 27:14 I have an interesting story. I appreciate what you're saying. The whole entrepreneurial spirit is so important in what we do, and I wish more people had it. But years ago, one of my first jobs out of college was working for a company in Massachusetts, Kurzweil Computer Products. Ray Kurzweil, who developed, originally a reading machine for the blind, and then later a more commercial version of it. And there's somebody that I had met when I was a student at UC Irvine who ended up being back in Massachusetts working for at that time, a think tank consulting company called Bolt Beranek and Newman. I don't know whether you're familiar with them. They changed their name to, I think it was CLOUD NINE or Planet Nine. But Dick was telling me one day that, and this is when mainframe computers were so large and there was a lot needed to keep them cool and so on. Anyway, he was telling me that one day the gas utility came in because the total heating bill for the six story building was like $10 and they wanted to know how BBN bolt, brannic and Newman was stealing energy and and making it so that they didn't pay very much money. And the the president of the company said, let me show you. They went down to the basement, and there they had two PDP 20s, which are like dual PDP 10s. And they put out a lot of heat, needless to say, to run them. And what BBN did was to take all of that heat and pipe it through the building to keep the building warm in the winter. Rather than paying all the gas bills, they were using something that they already had, the entrepreneurial spirit liveth well. And the bottom line is they, they kept the building well heated. And I don't know what they did in the summer, but during the winter it was, it was pretty cool, and they were able to have $10 gas bills for the six story building, which was kind of fun. No,   Stuart Pollington ** 29:39 that's brilliant, yeah, and that just goes to show me, that is what a large part of this, you know, energy efficiency and things like that, is, it's, it's, it's not about just completely replacing or stopping something. It's about better utilizing it. Isn't it? So they, you know the example you just gave there, with the heat and the wasted energy of being lost in that heat release they've used and utilized, which is brilliant.   Michael Hingson ** 30:12 I a couple of years ago. So my wife passed away in 2022 and we have a furnace and so on here, and we had gas bills that were up in the $200 a month or more up as much as $300 a month in the winter to keep the house at a temperature that we could stand. And two years ago, I thought about, how do we lower that? And I was never a great fan of space heaters, but I decided to try something. We got a couple of space heaters, and we put them out in the living room, and we have ceiling fans. So turned on the space heaters and turned on the ceiling fans, and it did a pretty decent job of keeping the temperature down, such that for most months, I didn't even have to turn the furnace on at all, and our heating bill went down to like $39 a month. Then last year, we got an additional heater that was a little bit larger, and added that to the mix. And again, the bottom line is that if I start all of that early in the morning, our heating bill is like 30 $35 a month. Now I do cheat occasionally, and I'll turn the furnace on for about 45 minutes or 50 minutes in the morning with the ceiling fans to help distribute the warmer air, and I can get the house up to 75 degrees, or almost 30 Celsius, in in a very quick time. And then with the other two space heaters running, I don't have to use furnaces or anything for the rest of the day. So I think this year, the most expensive heating bill we had was like $80 because I did occasionally run the the the heaters or the furnace, and when I was traveling, I would turn the furnace on for the cat a little bit. But the bottom line is, there's so many things that we can do to be creative, if we think about it, to make things run more efficiently and not use as much energy and eliminate a lot of the waste that that we have, and so that that has worked out pretty well, and I have solar on the house. So in the summer, when most people around here are paying four and $500 a month for their electric bills to run the air conditioning. My electric bill year round, is $168 a month, which is   Stuart Pollington ** 32:47 cool. Yeah, no, that's great that you've and you've that is a great example there of kind of how you know our approach to energy efficiency. You know what? What are you currently doing? Is there a more efficient way of doing it? Which is exactly what you found, yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 33:07 yeah, and it works really well. So I can't complain it's warming up now. So in fact, we're not I haven't turned the furnace or anything on at all this week. This is the first week it's really been warm at night. In fact, it was 75 degrees Fahrenheit last night. I actually had to turn the air conditioner on and lower the house to 70 degrees, and then turned it off because I don't need to keep it on, and made it easier to sleep. But it's it's amazing, if we think about it, what the things that we can do to make our energy lives more efficient, lower the carbon footprint, and all those kinds of things. So I hear what you're saying, and it's and it's important, I think that we all think about as many ways as we can of doing that. I   Stuart Pollington ** 33:56 think one of the biggest problems with energy is just invisible. You don't, you know, you don't really see it. No. So just, it's just one of those. You just don't really think about it. And again, you only get, you only get told what you've used once you've used it. Yeah, so it's too late by then. And then you go, Oh, you know, you might get an expensive bill. And go, oh, I need to be careful. And then you're careful for a few days or a week, and then again, you don't see it until you get your next bill. Yeah, it's really hard as with anything. I mean, it's a bit like going to the gym. If you go to the gym or the fitness and you just do it sporadically. You don't really have a routine, or, you know, it's gonna be very hard to achieve anything. But then if you, if you set your mind to it, if you maybe get a trainer, and you get a you go onto a better diet, and you follow your routine, you can you will see the results. And it's very similar to what we do. If you've once you've got the data, and you can actually see what. Happening, you can make proper, informed and educated business decisions, and that's what we're trying to do with that is to help businesses make the right decision on the path to net zero   Michael Hingson ** 35:11 well, and you have to develop the mindset as the consumer to bring in a company like yours, or at least think about yourself. What can I do consistently to have a better energy pattern? And I think that's what most people tend not to do a lot, and the result of that is that they pay more than they need to. The power companies like it, the gas companies like it. But still, there are better ways to do it so. So tell me you have been in business and been an entrepreneur for a long time. What is maybe an example of some major crisis or thing that happened to you that you you regard as a failure or a setback that you have had to deal with and that taught you something crucial about business or life.   Stuart Pollington ** 36:08 Brilliant question. I mean, I would, I would guess, over 20 years, there's been a lot of different, sorry, a lot of different things that have happened. I think probably, probably an impactful one would have been. And this taught me a lot about my team, and, you know, their approach and how everyone can pull together. So it would have been, I think it was about, it was when I was in the Philippines. So it would have been about maybe 1212, years ago, we're in Cebu, and there was a big earthquake, and when it hit Cebu, I think it was quite early in the morning. It was like 6am and I remember the whole bed was kind of shaking and rocking, and we, you know, had to get out of the condo. And we're, at the time, living in a place called it Park. And in the Philippines, there's a lot of cool centers, so it's very much 24/7 with an office environment. So as we're coming out of the condo, in literally pants, as in, when I say pants, I mean underwear, because you literally jump out of bed and run. And they were like 1000s, 1000s of all the local Filipinos all all in their normal clothes, because they've all doing the call center work. And I remember just, you know, sitting out on the ground as the aftershocks and whole grounds moving and and, and that that was a very, you know, personal experience. But then on top of that, I've then got over 100 staff in in Cebu at the time that I then have to think about. And, you know, is everyone okay? And then, because of the time it happened, Luckily no one was in the office because it was early, yeah, but it all but it also meant that everything we needed   Michael Hingson ** 38:08 was in the office. Was in the office. Yeah, yeah. So,   Stuart Pollington ** 38:10 so I remember Matt, you know, I remember getting a group of us there, was myself and maybe three or four others from the office, and I remember getting in my car, drove to the office. We were on, I think it's like the eighth or ninth floor, and they didn't want to let us in because of, obviously, the earthquake, and it was a, it was a couple of hours later, and you've got to be obviously, you know, everything needs checking. You still got all the aftershocks, but we managed to let them allow us to run up the fire exit to the office so we could grab, you know, I think we were grabbing, like, 1520, laptops and screens to put in the car so that we could then, and we had to do that of the fire exit, so running up, running down, and that was all into The car so we could then drive to a location where I could get some of my team together remote and to work in this. I think we ended up in some coffee shop we found that was open, and we had the old free G boost kind of the Wi Fi dongles, dongles. And I just remember having to get, like, 1015, of my team, and we're all sat around there in the coffee shop in the morning. You know, there's still the after shops going on the I remember the office building being a mess, and, you know, the tiles had come in and everything, and it was all a bit crazy, but we had to find a way to keep the business running. So we were in the Philippines, we were the support team. We did all of the delivery of the work, but we also worked with the account managers in the UK and Australia as their technical liaisons, if you like. So we. Helped do the strategy. We did everything. And so with us out of action, the whole of Australia and of the whole of the UK team were kind of in a limbo, so we really had to pull together as a team. It taught me a lot about my staff and my team, but it also kind of it taught me about, no matter what does happen, you know, you can find a way through things, you know. So at the time that it happened, it felt like, you know, that's it, what we're going to do, but we had to turn that around and find the way to keep everything going. And yeah, that, that that just taught me a lot of you know, you can't give up. You've got to find a way to kind of push on through. And yeah, we did a fantastic job. Everyone was safe. Sorry. I probably should have said that. You know, no one, none of my team, were affected directly from the from the earthquake, which was great, and we found a way to keep things going so that the business, if you like, didn't fall apart. We,   Michael Hingson ** 41:09 you know, I guess, in our own way, had a similar thing, of course, with September 11, having our office on the 78th floor of Tower One, the difference is that that my staff was out that day working. They weren't going to be in the office. One person was going to be because he had an appointment at Cantor Fitzgerald up on the 96th floor of Tower One for 10 o'clock in the morning, and came in on one of the trains. But just as it arrived at the station tower two was hit, and everything shook, and the engineer said, don't even leave. We're going back out. And they left. But we lost everything in the office that day, and there was, of course, no way to get that. And I realized the next day, and my wife helped me start to work through it, that we had a whole team that had no office, had nothing to go to, so we did a variety of things to help them deal with it. Most of them had their computers because we had laptops by that time, and I had taken my laptop home the previous night and backed up all of my data onto my computer at home, so I was able to work from home, and other people had their computers with them. The reason I didn't have my laptop after September 11 is that I took it in that day to do some work. But needless to say, when we evacuated, it was heavy enough that going down 1463 stairs, 78 floors, that would have been a challenge with the laptop, so we left it, but it worked out. But I hear what you're saying, and the reality is that you got to keep the team going. And even if you can't necessarily do the work that you normally would do you still have to keep everyone's spirits up, and you have to do what needs to be done to keep everybody motivated and be able to function. So I think I learned the same lessons as you and value, of course, not that it all happened, but what I learned from it, because it's so important to be able to persevere and move forward, which, which is something that we don't see nearly as much as sometimes we really should.   Stuart Pollington ** 43:34 Yeah, no, no, definitely. I mean the other thing, and I think you you just mentioned there actually is it. You know, it was also good to see afterwards how everyone kind of pulls together. And, you know, we had a lot of support, not just in the Philippines, but from the UK and the Australia teams. I mean, we had a, we had a bit of an incident, you know, may have seen on the news two weeks ago, I think now, we had an incident in Bangkok where there was a earthquake in Myanmar, and then the all the buildings are shaking in Bangkok, yeah, 7.9 Yeah, that's it. And just, but just to see everyone come together was, was it's just amazing. You know? It's a shame, sometimes it takes something big to happen for people to come together and support each other.   Michael Hingson ** 44:27 We saw so much of that after September 11. For a while, everyone pulled together, everyone was supporting each other. But then over time, people forgot, and we ended up as a as a country, in some ways, being very fractured. Some political decisions were made that shouldn't have been, and that didn't help, but it was unfortunate that after a while, people started to forget, in fact, I went to work for an organization out in California in 2002 in addition to. To taking on a career of public speaking, and in 2008 the president of the organization said, we're changing and eliminating your job because nobody's interested in September 11 anymore, which was just crazy, but those are the kinds of attitudes that some people have, well, yeah, there was so little interest in September 11 anymore that when my first book, thunderdog was published, it became a number one New York Times bestseller. Yeah, there was no interest. It's   Stuart Pollington ** 45:31 just, I hope you sent him a signed copy and said, There you go.   Michael Hingson ** 45:35 Noah was even more fun than that, because this person had been hired in late 2007 and she did such a great job that after about 18 months, the board told her to go away, because she had so demoralized the organization that some of the departments were investigating forming unions, you know. So I didn't need to do anything. Wow, so, you know, but it, it's crazy, the attitudes that people have. Well, you have it is, it's it's really sad. Well, you have done a couple of things that I think are very interesting. You have moved to other countries, and you've also started businesses in unfamiliar markets. What advice? What advice would you give to someone who you learn about who's doing that today, starting a business in an unfamiliar market, or in a foreign country, or someplace where they've never been?   Stuart Pollington ** 46:34 Yeah, again, good questions. I looking back and then so and seeing what I'm doing now, and looking back to when I first came over, I think chambers, I think if I have one, you know, obviously you need to understand the market you want. You need to understand, like the labor laws, the tax laws and, you know, the business laws and things like that. But I think, I think the best thing you could do in any country is to check out the chambers. You know, I'm heavily involved and active with aus Jam, which is the Australian Chamber of Commerce, because of the connection with smart traffic in Australia, in Sydney, the digital marketing. I'm also involved with bcct, the British chamber as British Chamber of Commerce Thailand as well, that there's a very big AmCham American Chamber over here as well. And I just think that the chambers can help a lot. You know, they're good for the networking. Through the networking, you can meet the different types of people you need to know, connections with visas, with, you know, work permits, how to set up the business, recruiting everything. So everything I need, I can actually find within this ecosphere of the chambers. And the chambers in Thailand and Bangkok, specifically, they're very active, lots of regular networking, which brings, you know, introductions, new leads to the business, new connections. And then on top of that, we've had, we've had a lot of support from the British Embassy over in in Thailand, especially with the Eastern energy, because it is tech based, because it is UK Tech, and because it is obviously something that's good for the environment and what everyone's trying to push towards. So I think the two key areas for me, if you are starting a business in an unfamiliar area, is one. Check out the chambers. So obviously the first one you'd look at is your own nationality. But don't stress too much about that. I mean, the chambers over here will welcome anyone from any nationality. So, you know, utilize the chambers because it's through that that you're going to get to speak to people, expats, already running businesses. You'll hear the horror stories. You'll hear the tips. It will save you some time, it will save you some money, and it will save you from making similar mistakes. And then also talk to your embassy and how they can maybe support you. We've had, again, some great support from the British Embassy. They've witnessed demo use. They've helped us with introductions. On the energy efficiency side,   Michael Hingson ** 49:26 one of the things that clearly happens though, with you is that you also spend time establishing relationships with people, so you talk about the chamber and so on. But it also has to be that you've established and developed trusting relationships, so that you are able to learn the things that you learned, and that people are willing to help teach you. And I suspect that they also realize that you would be willing to help others as well.   Stuart Pollington ** 49:55 Yeah, and I think I mean yes, and I'm talking about. And I mentioned, sorry, networking and the changes. But with networking, you know, you don't, you shouldn't go in there with the mindset of, I'm going into networking. I want to make as many sales as I can. Whatever you go into the networking. Is an opportunity to meet people, to learn from people you then some of those people, or most of those people, may not even be the right fit for you, but it's about making those relationships and then helping each other and making introductions. So you know, a lot of what I do with the chambers, I run a lot of webinars. I do workshops where I do free training on digital marketing, on AI, on SEO, on ads, on social. I use that as my lead gen, if you like. So I spend a lot of time doing this educationally and helping people. And then the offshot of that is that some of those will come and talk to me and ask me to how I can help them, or they will recommend me to someone else. And you know, we all know in business, referrals are some of the best leads you can get.   Michael Hingson ** 51:11 Yeah, by any, by any definition, one of, one of the things that I tell every sales person that I've ever hired is you are a student, at least for your first year, don't hesitate to ask questions, because in reality, in general, people are going to be perfectly willing to help you. They're not going to look down on you if you ask questions and legitimately are looking for guidance and information. Again, it's not about you, it's about what you learn, and it's about how you then are able to use that knowledge to help other people, and the people and the individuals who recognize that do really well.   Stuart Pollington ** 51:50 No, exactly, and I don't know about you, Michael, but I like, I like helping people. Yeah, I like, it makes me feel good. And, yeah, that's, that's a big part of it as well. You know   Michael Hingson ** 52:01 it is and, and that's the way it ought to be. It's, that's the other thing that I tell them. I said, once you have learned a great deal, first of all, don't forget that you're always going to be a student. And second of all, don't hesitate to be a teacher and help other people as well.   Speaker 1 ** 52:16 Man, that's really important. Yeah, brilliant.   Michael Hingson ** 52:20 Now you have worked across a number of sectors and market, marketing, tech, sales, energy and so on. How did how do you do that? You You've clearly not necessarily been an expert in those right at the beginning. So how do you learn and grow and adapt to be able to to work in those various industries.   Stuart Pollington ** 52:41 Yeah, I mean, for the marketing, for the marketing, it helps that I really was interested in it. So there was a good there was a good interest. And if you're interested in something, then you get excited about it, and you have the motivation and the willingness to learn and ask the questions, like you said, and then that is where you can take that kind of passion and interest and turn it into something a bit more constructive. It's a bit like I was saying at the beginning. It's the sort of thing I wish they'd done a bit maybe with me at school, was understand what I was good at and what I liked. But yeah, so with the marketing, I mean, very similar to what you've said, I asked questions. I see it just seems to click in my head on how it worked. And it kind of made sense to me. It was just one of these things that clicked, yeah. And so for the marketing, I just found it personally quite interesting, but interesting, but also found it quite easy. It just made sense to me, you know. And similar, you know, using computers and technology, I think it just makes sense. It doesn't to everyone. And other people have their strengths in other areas, but, you know, for me, it made sense. So, you know that that was the easy part. Same with Eastern energy, it's technology. It makes sense. I love it, but at the end of the day, it's all about it's all about people, really business, and you've got your people and your team, and how you motivate them is going to be similar. It's going to be slightly different depending on culture and where you're based, in the type of industry you're in, but also very similar. You know, people want praise, they want constructive feedback. They want to know where they're gonna be in a year or five years. All of that's very similar. So you people within the business, and then your customers are just people as well, aren't they? Well, customers, partners, clients, you know that they are just people. So it's all, it's all, it's all about people, regardless of what we're doing. And because it's all very similar with tech and that, it just, yeah, I don't know. It just makes sense to me. Michael, I mean, it's different. It's funny, because when I do do network and I talk to people, I say, Well, I've got this digital marketing agency here. Work, and then I've got this energy efficiency business here. And the question is always, wow, they sound really different. How did you how did you get into them? But when, again, when I look at it, it's not it's it's tech, it's tech, it's data, it's people. That's how I look at it,   Michael Hingson ** 55:16 right? And a lot of the same rules apply across the board. Yes, there are specific things about each industry that are different, but the basics are the same.   Stuart Pollington ** 55:28 That's it. I, in fact, I that isn't almost, there's almost word for word. What I use when I'm explaining our approach to SEO, I just say, Look, you know, there's, there's three core areas with SEO, it's the tech, the on site, it's the content, and it's the off site signals, or the link building. I said they're the three core areas for Google. They've been the same for, you know, 20 years. Within those areas, there's lots of individual things you need to look at, and that changes a lot. And there's 1000s of things that go into the algorithm, but the basics are the same. Sort your tech, sort the text, sort the tech of it out, the speed of the site and the usability. Make sure your content is good and relevant and authoritative, and then get other sites to recommend you and reference you, you know So, but, yeah, that's very similar to how I try and explain SEO. Yeah, you know all this stuff going on, but you still got the core basics of the same.   Michael Hingson ** 56:29 It is the same as it has always been, absolutely. So what do you do? Or how do you deal with a situation when plans necessarily don't go like you think they should, and and all that. How do you stay motivated?   Stuart Pollington ** 56:45 I mean, it depends, it depends what's gone wrong. But, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a big believer in, you know, learning from your mistakes and then learning also learning from what went wrong. Because sometimes you don't make a mistake and something goes wrong, but something still goes wrong. I think it helps. It helps to have a good team around you and have a good support team that you can talk to. It's good to be able to work through issues. But, I mean, for me, I think the main thing is, you know, every like you were saying earlier, about asking questions and being a student for a year. You know everything that happens in business, good or bad, is a lesson that should help you be better in the future. So you know the first thing, when something goes wrong, understand what's gone wrong first. Why did it go wrong? How did it go wrong? How do we resolve this, if we need to resolve something for the client or us, and then how do we try and limit that happening in the future? And then what do we learn from that? And how do we make sure we can improve and be better? And I think, you know, it's not always easy when things go wrong, but I think I'm long enough in the tooth now that I understand that, you know, the bad days don't last. There's always a good day around the corner, and it's about, you know, working out how you get through   Michael Hingson ** 58:10 it. And that's the issue, is working it out. And you have to have the tenacity and, well, the interest and the desire to work it out, rather than letting it overwhelm you and beat you down, you learn how to move forward.   Stuart Pollington ** 58:25 Yeah, and that's not easy, is it? I mean, let's be honest. I mean, even, even being when we were younger and kids, you know, things happen. It does. We're just human, aren't we? We have emotions. We have certain feelings. But if you can just deal with that and then constructively and critically look at the problem, you can normally find a solution.   Michael Hingson ** 58:46 Yeah, exactly. What's one piece of advice you wished you had learned earlier in your entrepreneurial career?   Stuart Pollington ** 58:56 Um, I Yeah. I mean, for this one. I think, I think what you said earlier, actually, it got me thinking during wise we've been talking because I was kind of, I would say, don't be afraid to ask questions just based on what we've been talking about. It's changed a little bit because I was going to say, well, you know, one of the things I really wish I'd learned or known earlier was, you know, about the value of mentorship and kind of finding the the right people who can almost show you where you need to be, but you could, you know, but when people hear the word mentor, they think of either or, you know, someone really, yeah, high up who I could I'm too afraid to ask them, or someone who's going to cost you 1000s of dollars a month. So actually, I'm going to change that to don't be afraid to ask questions, because that's basically what you'd expect from a mentor, is to be able to ask. Questions, run ideas. And I think, I think, yeah, I think thinking back now, understanding that the more questions you ask, the more information you have, the better your decisions you can make. And obviously, don't be afraid to learn from other people's experience, because they've been through it, and potentially they could have the right way for you to get through it as well.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:24 And you never know where you're going to find a mentor. Exactly,   Stuart Pollington ** 1:00:28 yeah, no, exactly. I think again, you hear the word mentor, and you think people have this diff, a certain perception of it, but it can be anyone. I mean, you know, if I my mom could be my mentor, for, for, for her great, you know, cooking and things that she would do in her roast dinners. You know that that's kind of a mentor, isn't it making a better roast dinner? So I think, yeah, I think, I   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:54 think, but it all gets back to being willing to ask questions and to listen,   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:02 and then I would add one more thing. So ask the questions, listen and then take action. And that's where that unstoppable mindset, I think, comes in, because I think people do ask questions, people can listen, but it's the taking action. It's that final step of having the courage to say, I'm going to do this, I'm going to go for   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:23 it. And you may find out that what was advised to you may not be the exact thing that works for you, but if you start working at it, and you start trying it, you will figure out what works   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:37 exactly. Yeah, no, exactly. That's it, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:41 Well, what a great place to actually end this. We've been doing this now over an hour, and I know, can you believe it? And I have a puppy dog who probably says, If you don't feed me dinner soon, you're going to be my dinner. So I should probably go do that. That's   Stuart Pollington ** 1:01:57 all good. So for me, I'm going to go and get my breakfast coffee. Now it's 7am now, five past seven in the morning.   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:03 There you are. Well, this is my day. This has been a lot of fun. I really appreciate you being here, and I want to say to everyone listening and watching, we really appreciate you being here with us as well. Tell others about unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate that. Love to hear your thoughts and get your thoughts, so feel free to email me with any of your ideas and your your conceptions of all of this. Feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, you can also go to our podcast page. There's a contact form there, and my podcast page is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O N. Love to hear from you. Would really appreciate it if you'll give us a five star rating wherever you're watching or listening to the podcast today, if you know anyone and steward as well for you, if any one of you listening or participating knows anyone else that you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we'd love to hear from you. We'd love introductions, always looking for more people to tell their stories. So that's what this is really all about. So I really appreciate you all taking the time to be here, and Stuart, especially you. Thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun, and we really appreciate you taking your time.   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:26 Thank you, Michael. Thank you everyone. I really enjoyed that. And you know, in the spirit of everything, you know, if, if anyone does have any questions for me, just feel free to reach out. I'm happy to chat.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:39 How do they do that? What's the best way, I   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:41 think probably the LinkedIn so I think on when you post and share this, you will have the link. I think   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:49 we will. But why don't you go ahead and say your LinkedIn info anyway? Okay, yeah.   Stuart Pollington ** 1:03:53 I mean, the easiest thing to do would just be the Google search for my name on LinkedIn. So Stuart pollington, it's S, T, U, a, r, t, and then P, O, L, L, I N, G, T, O, N, and if you go to LinkedIn, that is my I think I got lucky. I've got the actual LinkedIn URL, LinkedIn, forward slash, I N, forward slash. Stuart pollington, so it should be nice and easy.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:19 Yeah, I think I got that with Michael hingson. I was very fortunate for that as well. Got lucky with   Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:23 that. Yeah, they've got numbers and everything. And I'm like, Yes, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:30 Well, thank you again. This has been a lot of fun, hasn't   Stuart Pollington ** 1:04:33 it? He has. I've really enjoyed it. So thank you for the invitation, Michael.   **Michael Hingson ** 1:04:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

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This is a highly selfish podcast episode that I desperately need to hear. Funnily, more than often that is the kind of episode others get value out of as well. So here's to mastering the art of losing well, with dignity, grace, and a huge amount of “bounce back”.Enjoy,And check out other channels of mine HERE

Today, June 27, 2025 is national PTSD Day in the United States. It is a timely day to release this episode as you will see.   As a result of my appearance on a podcast I had the honor to meet Kara Joubert and invited her to be a guest here on Unstoppable Mindset. She accepted. Little did I know at the time how unstoppable she was and how much she has faced in life even only at the age of 21. Kara tells us that she loved to draw and was even somewhat compulsive about it. At the age of seven she was diagnosed as being on the Autism spectrum. She speculates that her intense interest in drawing came partly from autism. However, fear not. She still draws a lot to this day. What we learn near the end of our time with Kara is that her father was a graphic artist. So, drawing comes, I think, quite honestly.   While Kara does not go into much detail, she tells us she experienced a severe trauma as a child which led to her having Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. She did not receive a diagnosis of PTSD until she was seventeen when she began seeing a therapist. By the time her condition was identified she had to leave school and went into home schooling.   As we learn, Kara did well in her exams after home schooling and went onto University in England where she was raised. After her first year studying journalism and unofficially studying film making Kara was selected as one of three students to take a year abroad of learning in Brisbane Australia. We caught up with Kara to do our podcast during her time in Brisbane.   Already as a student Kara has written three short films and directed two of them. Quite the unstoppable mindset by any standard.   Kara willingly shares much about her life and discusses in depth a great deal about PTSD. I know you will find her comments insightful and relevant.     About the Guest:   At 21 years old, Kara Joubert is a keen advocate for the power of storytelling. Based in the UK, she is a journalist and filmmaker who has written three short films and directed two of them. Her academic journey has taken her to Australia, and her enthusiasm for filmmaking has led her to Hollywood film sets.    Kara is drawn to the stories of others. She believes that everyone carries a “backstory” and values the strength it takes to overcome personal challenges. She thinks that a victory doesn't have to be dramatic, rather, it's any moment where someone chooses courage over comfort. Her own greatest victory has been learning to overcome anxiety.    Throughout her life, Kara has faced significant mental health challenges. She developed post-traumatic stress disorder at a young age, which went undiagnosed until she was 17. Later, she was also diagnosed with obsessive-compulsive disorder and social anxiety disorder. Her teenage years were filled with fear and isolation, sometimes resulting in her being unable to leave the house.     Today, Kara lives with a renewed sense of freedom. After undergoing cognitive behavioural therapy, she now embraces life with a confidence and courage her younger self never could have imagined. She is now a successful university student who has travelled far beyond her comfort zone, with the intention of sharing hope and her enthusiasm for filmmaking.  Kara's mission is to inspire others through journalism, filmmaking, and podcasting. Ways to connect with Kara:   Website: karajoubert.com On social media: kara joubert media   About the Host:   Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset .   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.       Transcription Notes:   Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to have a conversation with a person who clearly, by any means and definition, is unstoppable in a lot of ways. Kara Juubert is 21 she says, so who's going to argue with that? And she has already written three films, directed to she's very much into film and journalism and other such things. She is from England, but she is now in Australia. She has faced major trauma and challenges in her life, and she has overcome them already, and I'm not going to say more until we get into a discussion about it, but we'll get there. So, Kara, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're   Kara Joubert ** 02:15 here. Thank you so happy to be here. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 02:19 it's our pleasure and our honor. So why don't you start by telling us a little bit about kind of the early car growing up. You know, you obviously were born somewhere and and all that sort of stuff. But tell us a little about the early Kara,   Kara Joubert ** 02:34 oh, the early days. Kara, season one. Kara, sure, you was in the beginning, yes, she was an interesting child, and I look back with a degree of fondness, she was quite a creative individual, and I enjoyed drawing obsessively and all things creative and expressive, even in my younger days, I was sort of brought up in around the London area, or I say London, which is more of a generalization, to be specific, which is a place not many have heard of. And within that space, I grew up in a loving family and had supportive parents. I've got two younger siblings as well. And yes, early days, Kara, she was someone who really loved her family. I still love my family, happy to say. And yeah, grew up in this supportive environment, but she had a few things to work through, as I'm sure what   Michael Hingson ** 03:43 we will get into. So when did you start? How old were you when you started drawing?   Kara Joubert ** 03:49 Oh, um, since I could pick up a pencil,   Michael Hingson ** 03:54 she could pick up a pencil. So pretty young, yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 03:57 very young. I can't, I can't give you the exact timestamp, but it was very early on, and it was very obsessive. And in part, the obsession here is what got me into my autism diagnosis. Funnily enough, it's not your standard obsession related to autism, but I was always occupied with drawing something somewhere, and in my very young days, that would have been the walls. Thankfully, my parents managed to move me to paper. And   Michael Hingson ** 04:33 yes, that's fair. So what did you draw?   Kara Joubert ** 04:37 What kind of pictures? Yeah, everything that I could see really, and I was a perfectionist from a very young age, and I'm sure there were several tantrums tied to the fact that I couldn't quite get something right. But yes, I thoroughly enjoyed drawing what I saw around. Me, and I would say, yes, with that obsessive mindset does definitely come a degree of perfectionism. And look, I love drawing to this day, certainly. And I wouldn't say I'm terrible at it, but it was something, yeah, that really, I think, liberated my younger self, because she did struggle that season one car with socializing and drawing was just this amazing escape.   Michael Hingson ** 05:25 Well, you had 19 or 20 years to practice drawing, so hopefully you would be pretty good.   Kara Joubert ** 05:32 Yeah, I should hope so have something to show for it.   Michael Hingson ** 05:36 So you kind of, to a degree, sort of hid behind or within your drawings, or around your drawings, and you let them kind of be your voice, definitely,   Kara Joubert ** 05:47 absolutely. And that did move on to writing further along the line, where poetry became a massive form of self expression. And at times that did get me into trouble, but again, it was that creative outlet that really does help, I think, someone understand their own feelings the world around them. There's a great joy in being able to do these things. So   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 what kind of trouble did it get you into or, how did it get you into trouble, just because you focused so much on it? Or,   Kara Joubert ** 06:27 um, well, there was, there's a specific example I'll give. When I was in secondary school, it wasn't a great time of my life, and the school itself was quite problematic. And I was told, you know, I need to create something for a showcase, which takes place, I think, every spring. And I was told I need to make a poem, because apparently I was reasonably good at that, and I did. But the thing is, I couldn't force any feelings of, I suppose, happiness or joy that I didn't feel because at the time, I was being bullied by both teachers and students, and I didn't have any friends and felt very isolated. So I created a poem, which is, you know, which discussed my feelings here, and I did throw a happy ending to that poem, because I think even then, I understood that there's always hope for a better day. So it was, however, the, I suppose, depiction of my negative feelings at the time, the fact that I was quite openly saying I don't fit in the school, and I feel unaccepted, in so many words that eventually I would say was a massive catalyst in getting me not kicked out of the school. Socially, kicked out of the school. I kicked myself out at a certain point because the teachers had said there was no hope I was going to need to be put into an special education stream. And my parents took me out. But part of the reason for them taking me out was this isolation, and the isolation did increase after I'd read this poem aloud. It was at that point where the community, I think, decided that I was and my family were not welcome.   Michael Hingson ** 08:28 How did your parents cope with all that?   Kara Joubert ** 08:31 My parents, they took it head on. And you know, I will say that Sure, there are two sides to every story here. And I don't know under what pressures the teachers were under, but certainly they did make life quite difficult, because it wasn't just me, it was my youngest siblings as well who were going into this school, and I think they tried to keep the peace for so long, but there was a point where they realized, actually, it would be better for all of us as a unit, as a family, to try other schools would go, you know, further outside of this community, and we couldn't get into the School, or I couldn't get into the school that I wanted, which led into homeschooling, so I was electively homeschooled.   Michael Hingson ** 09:30 Well, you talked a little bit about in our previous conversations and so on, the fact that you had some PTSD. What caused that?   Kara Joubert ** 09:41 So the PTSD was caused by a trauma in my youth. I was around 10 years old, and that led to, I suppose, even more anxiety than perhaps I'd felt in my younger days. And I was a very anxious kid from the onset. Yeah, but then this trauma occurred, which did involve the fear of dying. It involved a lot of things among that, and it was a lot for me to process. And I'll admit, it took a long time for me to be able to get to a point where I could say, All right, I need any therapy. And that was the best change I've ever made in my lifestyle. Was moving into therapy. But I think the PTSD did by the time I moved into therapy, it did have a negative impact in quite a few aspects of my life, and I think my schooling was one of them. Looking back, teachers saw someone who might have been a little distracted at times, who might have zoned out every once in a while, and seemed overall very anxious, and they could have read that as anti social. And I wanted to socialize. I really did. It's just there were things going on in my mind which I didn't realize as having such a strong hold over my life as it did.   Michael Hingson ** 11:13 And then the result was all that you were viewed as different,   Kara Joubert ** 11:19 yes, and the feeling of being different is something that stuck with me for I think, all of my life, even now, it's just when I was a child that was more of a negative thing, and in my teenagehood, I think every teenager feels different, but when I was a young kid, I can recall feeling with this autism like I'm living in a glass box, unsure of how to interact with people on the other side. And with the PTSD, that box felt like a cage. It was just an extra layer of fear put onto my I suppose, social anxiety, which made it even more difficult to connect.   Michael Hingson ** 12:00 So how did the PTSD manifest itself?   Kara Joubert ** 12:05 Right? So, PTSD has a lot of symptoms that can come with it, and it's different for every person. For me, this was a lot of nightmares. You know, it got to a point where I was actually afraid to fall asleep, but so tired that it was difficult to cope in any case. So nightmares was a big one, intrusive thoughts is another, and this accompanied a diagnosis of OCD. So with PTSD comes other sort of baggage, and that can be social anxiety, that can be OCD, a lot of people talk about this experience of reliving the trauma, or at least being in this overall sort of heightened sense of anxiety and fear, apprehension, I think is probably a good word, just being on edge, on the lower, I suppose, end of the spectrum, although dreadful though it is, and then on the higher end, feeling as though they are actually physically reliving whatever the trauma was that first occurred to them. And trauma can come through a variety of ways. I mean, one thing I would say to people about PTSD is never assume someone's trauma, because it can lead from physical abuse to emotional abuse, to sexual abuse, accidents, illness, and there are other things as well. You can get secondhand trauma from someone else, and that can develop PTSD as well. But in my case, yeah, it was a variety of symptoms, but the massive one, I would say, was extreme anxiety and fear.   Michael Hingson ** 13:55 What caused that?   Kara Joubert ** 13:57 What caused that? So PTSD is, and I can say this as someone who has,   Kara Joubert ** 14:06 and I believe being healed from PTSD, it no longer impacts me the way that it used to is it impacts the brain in very interesting ways. And once you start to look into the science of it and understand it, it makes sense. So within the brain, there are different sort of segments that deal with different aspects of life. And the part of the brain, the amygdala, I believe that deals with extreme, you know, fear, anxiety. It deals with sort of traumatic instances. It is perhaps not as I don't want to say developed. It takes these experiences and stores them, but it doesn't do much good for the timestamp. It doesn't understand. Of the fact that this has passed, it sort of holds on to this memory as if it's in the present, which is why you get these sort of reliving experiences as someone with PTSD, and why it can be quite difficult to move away from a trauma. Because in a sense, it feels like you're still reliving it.   Michael Hingson ** 15:20 Were you able to talk about it at all, like with your parents?   Kara Joubert ** 15:24 Yeah, absolutely. Um, I've already said, you know, had a very supportive family, and although they didn't quite understand it as I also didn't understand it. I mean, I was undiagnosed for a number of years. For a reason, they were always happy to support and offer hope, and it was that hope that I really had to cling on to for so many of my teenage years, because when you're stuck in that really dark place, it's difficult to fathom something that you can't see. Yeah, they took to the diagnosis very well. I think if anything, there was a sense of relief, because we understood what was going on at that point, and then it was a case of, okay, now, now we can work around this. And that's one thing that I think is so important when it comes to diagnosis, a diagnosis, is, is the start of something. There are cases where you can actually mitigate the effects of whatever that diagnosis is. And in such cases, it's great to be able to pursue that. You know, a diagnosis isn't the end. It's not a case of, I've got PTSD. Oh, well, I guess I'll live with that for the rest of my life. No, because there are ways to resolve this. There are ways to work through it.   Michael Hingson ** 16:50 So you mentioned earlier you were also diagnosed with autism. Did that contribute to all of the the PTSD and the obsessive compulsive behavior. Do you think I   Kara Joubert ** 17:03 think there might have been some crossover, and I don't know as to how much of an effect the autism had on my PTSD, because PTSD is born of a trauma response, and anyone can experience that and react adversely to it. It isn't dependent on autistic factors. I mean, I'm sure there is some research into this, and it'll be really interesting to look into, but I didn't, at least see it as a correlated sort of diagnosis, I think with OCD, though, there was definitely some crossover. And I do remember my therapist discussing this very briefly, that there is, you know, when you when you have one diagnosis, sometimes you get a few in there as well. And the full reaction was the OCD, social anxiety disorder and autism. So I almost had the full alphabet for a while.   Michael Hingson ** 18:03 Yeah, definitely, in a lot of ways, definitely. So how old were you when the autism was diagnosed or discovered? For sure,   Kara Joubert ** 18:15 I was seven years old, and that diagnosis was difficult to get. My mom had to fight for it, because a child who draws isn't your standard example of someone who was autistic, right? It was probably more obvious in how I handle social interactions, which was I handle social interactions I did have the tools, didn't understand sort of the almost unwritten rules of socializing, where I'm sort of expected to just know how to socialize, how to interact, and I think younger me would have benefited from a how to guide. But yeah, that's probably evident.   Michael Hingson ** 19:01 Unfortunately, a lot of these things exist, and nobody's written the manuals for them. So what do you do?   Kara Joubert ** 19:09 Yep, that's it. Get an autism guide.   Michael Hingson ** 19:12 An autism guide. Well, maybe AI nowadays can help with that. Who knows? Movie maybe. But   Kara Joubert ** 19:19 AI's got a few things to say about you, and I can't say they're all accurate. It says your first guide dog was Hell,   Michael Hingson ** 19:25 yeah. Well, it doesn't always get things exactly right. Roselle was number five. Squire was number one. So you know, hopefully, though, over time, it learns and it will not exhibit trauma and it will not be autistic, but we'll see   Kara Joubert ** 19:44 we shall. We shall destroy us all. That's the other hope. Well, there's   Michael Hingson ** 19:50 that too. So how old were you when you were PTSD was actually diagnosed.   Kara Joubert ** 19:56 I was 17.   Michael Hingson ** 20:00 So that was a long time after the the autism. So how did you finally decide to go see a therapist or or go down that road? I   Kara Joubert ** 20:14 think it just got bad enough, and we know a therapist through a family friend. And you know, I was having all of these symptoms. And I think it was my mum who reached out on my behalf and said, Look, is this is this normal at all for someone in her position, to which the therapist replied, Yes, actually. And you know what that first confirmation that I am, I want to say normal. Let's not overuse the word, because, I think, considered, it's probably the incorrect term to use. At least the symptoms were persistent with someone who had gone through what I had. And, yeah, I mean, all in good time. I think there will be a time where I can explain the trauma in greater detail. But today, at least, it's just a case of, you know, this is PTSD. This is what it feels like. And this, I am living proof that there is light on the other end of the tunnel. Because for a long time, I knew what that dark place looked like, and being able to live free of that, you know, just on a day to day basis, I can't help but be completely overwhelmed with gratitude.   Michael Hingson ** 21:44 So I think from what you've said, There was a time when you really felt that you were different from the people around you. When was that? At what point did you feel that way?   Kara Joubert ** 21:57 I do think this would have been i I can, I can recall two separate times. The first would have been when I was much younger, and I felt like I was living in that glass box. I didn't know how to cross the bridge. And it did feel like there was this barrier between myself and other people and that social, I suppose anxiety I knew was not normal, and I didn't feel as though, I suppose, had the tools. I didn't know how to use them, I think even if I was given them, and I for that reason, I did have to be taken out of school, because my anxiety got to a point where it was just completely overwhelming. And in my teenage years, I think it was probably standing among peers, seeing all these people interact, and I'm thinking, why aren't they afraid? Is there something so inherently different about me, that I'm constantly living in this state of fear.   Michael Hingson ** 23:08 Yeah, but at some point you realize that while there was a difference and it wasn't normal, you must have figured out that's something that you can address and hopefully resolve, I assume,   Kara Joubert ** 23:27 yeah, and it was that hope that carried me through. I would say I am a Christian, and within sort of the Christian sphere, you hear a lot about God's good plans, and although I didn't see it at the time, I had to put hope and faith that one day things were going to get better. I don't know where I would have been otherwise   Michael Hingson ** 23:57 So, but you must have at least also assume that things would get better, that that is, in part, comes from your faith, of course,   Kara Joubert ** 24:07 yeah, absolutely. And I didn't know when that was going to be, and I didn't know what that was going to look like. It looks a lot better than I thought it was going to be. And I'm happy to say that as far as fearing, anxiety is concerned, it's very rare I'd feel either these days that's I mean, people define miracles in all sorts of ways, but considering where I was, I do consider that a miracle.   Michael Hingson ** 24:42 Well, when you were diagnosed and so on, how did the people around you react? Or did you tell them? Or other than, obviously you your family knew, Did did you use that information to help you with others? Or how did all that go?   Kara Joubert ** 24:59 Yeah, I. Um, so I, I didn't have many friends in my teenage years, so there wasn't that many people to tell, to be honest. But certainly, as I have grown older and been able to be surrounded by more human beings and socialize with them and interact with them, I'm actually finding that this is this is a really beneficial experience two way, because I'm able to have the joy of interacting with others, and in certain cases, I will share the PTSD and the you know, corresponding perhaps experience with trauma, which had elements of both a fear of fear of dying and sexual trauma as well. So a lot of people undergo, unfortunately, these sorts of things at some point in their life. The current stat in the UK is one in 13 children have PTSD, and one in 10 adults will at some point experience PTSD. That is quite a high portion of the population. So, yeah. I mean, I have, yeah, absolutely. And it's something that I do wish people would talk about more because you get perhaps more attractive diagnoses. PTSD isn't one of them. It's quite ugly from at least that point of view. But look, I'm a firm believer in the potential that a human being has to overcome their trauma and to be liberated from the past. So I will share my experience with some people. It tends to be select audiences, because I understand that it's quite difficult for some people to hear and I look I always want to approach it with a point of view of uplifting someone in and imparting hope and support, because hope is good and all. But sometimes support is just as important, and being able to tell people to get help, find help, find therapeutic help, is very important,   Michael Hingson ** 27:24 since you come from a background of faith, which I think is extremely important. But can you absolutely really cure PTSD? Or is it something that will always be there, or because you have faith in the knowledge that you do, you can truly say I've cured it.   Kara Joubert ** 27:44 Well, I will say this, the faith kept me hoping for a good future. Therapy gave me the healing, and then to go full circle, faith also gave me peace. Closer to the end, it's as far as time loose ends, emotionally speaking and in therapy, you're taught to deal with the trauma as it is currently known, or at least I was, through a cognitive behavioral therapy, which is sort of a talking based therapy. And there are some triggers that might come through every once in a while, but it is completely possible to be healed, to be cured from PTSD, and this is generally through therapy,   Michael Hingson ** 28:32 as it was for me, right? And it's ultimately, although through therapy, it's a growth issue, and you've obviously grown a lot to be able to deal with this.   Kara Joubert ** 28:45 Yeah, absolutely. And I will say one thing about people with or who have overcome PTSD that I have seen is they have, I suppose, automatically been put through quite a lot, but then the growth journey is something that you know gives that person quite a lot more courage, perhaps, than someone else in their ears, just based on experience and life experience. I will say to people you know, it wasn't the trauma that made me strong, it was, it was the healing afterwards, because former itself can be pretty dire, but then on the other end of that, I'm able to take this experience and help others who have experienced something similar, and also go through life on a day to day basis, perhaps more aware of the hidden battles that people face, and that degree of empathy is quite important, I think, for someone of my position, who it loves to write, who loves to make films, it's all about telling the human story, and sometimes that means. Going down a layer or two,   Michael Hingson ** 30:04 yeah, well, but I think the ultimate thing is that you did it. You chose to do it however it happened. You eventually gave thought to this isn't the way it really should be looking at everyone else and you made a decision to find a way to go forward.   Kara Joubert ** 30:26 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, humans are amazing creatures at adapting, but I think sometimes that can be to our own detriment, where we adapt to what is a bad situation, and we live with that, thinking this is the norm. This is the standard that we've got to endure when actually, if things aren't good, it's well worth looking into a better future, a better alternative. Because, look, you can view this from a faith based point of view, or you can view this from a more therapeutic science back point of view, I think everyone is capable of healing with the right tools, and that's worth investing,   Michael Hingson ** 31:13 yeah, well, and the reality is that it should probably be some of both, because they're, they are, in a sense, related. The science is great, but ultimately you have to have the conviction. And as you point out, you you have it from faith, and there's, there's a lot of value in that, but ultimately it comes from the fact that you had the conviction that you could deal with it. And I think however you were brought to that place, and however you actually worked to make it happen, you ultimately are the one that made it happen   Kara Joubert ** 31:54 that's very well put. No, I appreciate that. Yeah, it's been quite an experience, but I know that it's one that has the potential to show others exactly that, that through hope, through therapy, no one is broken beyond repair. That's my belief, at least   Michael Hingson ** 32:24 well, so I assume you are not in therapy today.   Kara Joubert ** 32:29 No, I am not. Sometimes I'll catch up with my therapist, though he is such a decent guy and therapists, they're there to help you out. So automatically, I think they're quite invested, shall we say, in your life story. So I will occasionally catch up with him, but not necessarily, because I absolutely have to. Every once in a while, I might book a session, just because I say this to everyone I meet. I think everyone needs therapy to an extent, and it's good to check in every once in a while. But as far as necessity is concerned, no, I tend to be pretty okay these days.   Michael Hingson ** 33:11 Well, there you go. So what is your life like today?   Kara Joubert ** 33:15 Oh, today it is, can I say it's incredible, is that, all right, sure,   Kara Joubert ** 33:23 you get people, you ask them how they're going, they say, not bad. You know what? It's more than not bad. It's actually pretty good on this end. And I am, as you've said, I'm in Australia. I'm actually studying abroad, which is something I would never have imagined being able to do previously, as someone who was terrified to leave her house. And yeah, I've just finished my studies for my second year, and it's been a wonderful year, which has included a few lovely surprises along the way. So yeah, things are going pretty well.   Michael Hingson ** 33:55 Well is, is this the time to say that we're having this conversation. And for you down in Brisbane, it's 604, in the morning. So Good on you for being awake early. I mean, I know the feeling well,   Kara Joubert ** 34:12 Ah, man, it's all good. It's all good. I was saying to you before the podcast. Are no better reason to wake up bright and breezy than to be on your podcast here today,   Michael Hingson ** 34:21 listen to her spokes well. Thank you. Well, I, I get up early. My wife passed away in November of 2022, I was the morning person. She was more of an evening person. And we, we had a we worked all that out. So we, we all did well. But since she passed, and I do tend to do a lot of work with people on the East Coast looking for speaking engagements and so on. I get up at 430 in the morning, and I'm slow at it, at deliberately slow at getting up and getting dressed, feeding the dog, Alan. And feeding our kitty. Stitch, my kitty now stitch, and then I eat breakfast. So I spend a couple of hours doing all that. And it's neat not to have to rush, but it is nice to be up and look at the morning. And so when I open the door and let Alamo go outside, by that time, usually, at least in the summer, in the late spring, and in the fall, the autumn, the birds are chirping. So I'll go, Hi birds. What's going on, you know? And it's fun to do that sort of thing.   Kara Joubert ** 35:32 Yeah, it's nice to be up before the world is awake. I will say that I'm not normally a morning person, but I'm considering converting because this is actually lovely and quiet. It feels quite peaceful. I mean, yeah, the birds are Troy, but I will say this, Michael, I think the Australian birds sound quite different to your birds, because I'm sure saying, I don't think it's good morning. Well, that   Michael Hingson ** 35:57 or maybe we're doing something and you're disturbing us, but it's still still good to talk to them and tell them hello. No, they respond to that. I had a job working for a company once where I was the first into the office, and it was all selling to the east coast from the West Coast, so I got up at like four in the morning. And for six months, my wife Karen had to drive me 45 miles because we hadn't moved down to it yet, 45 miles to go from home to where I worked, to be there at six. And then she came back up and she did that, and it was great because we also read a lot of audio books as we were going down the freeway. That was relatively empty. But yeah, it is nice to be up in the morning, and that is what I tend to do, and I enjoy it. It's it's fun to be up playing with the puppy dog and and, and the kitty as well. But, you know, it's just part of what makes the day a good day. And they, they're definitely part of what brighten up my day. I have to say,   Kara Joubert ** 37:10 that's fantastic. How do they brighten up each other's day? A cat and a dog? Do they get along pretty   Michael Hingson ** 37:15 well. They get along well, but they, I don't know that they brighten each other's day. Other than that. They know each other exists, and they're happy about that. They rub noses occasionally. They talk to each other, okay, all right, I would never want a guide dog that had any animosity toward a cat, and I've always said that whenever I've had to to deal with getting a new guide dog album is going to be around for quite a while yet, but I've always said I do not want an animal that hasn't been raised around a cat. They have to do that because I just don't want to deal with that. I've seen some guide dogs that were absolute cat haters, and I would never want that.   Kara Joubert ** 37:57 No, of course. So to all animals, and also, I can imagine, from a practical point of view, he taking Alamo on a walk, and Alamo sees a cat and bolts off. That's going to be very inconvenient for all parties concerned.   Michael Hingson ** 38:11 Well, he could try to bolt off, he wouldn't succeed, but he but he doesn't, so it's okay. My fourth guide dog, Lenny, loved to chase rabbits and not to hurt them, but they're different. She wants to play with them. And you know, so this, it's cute. Well, so you You've talked a lot about having PTSD and so on, but what are some misconceptions that people typically have? You've talked about it being crazy and about it being misunderstood. Tell us a little bit more about how to understand and what, what are the misconceptions, and how do we deal with that?   Kara Joubert ** 38:48 Of course. So most of the times we see PTSD betrayed, it's on the television, and really only see two symptoms, at least from my viewing, which are flashbacks and nightmares. But PTSD can look different for different people. And although, yes, these are symptoms, and they are quite common symptoms, there are plenty of others. So anger, depression, anxiety, intrusive thoughts, OCD, these are all symptomatic of PTSD or an unresolved trauma. So I would recommend people doing some more research, perhaps into PTSD if they are curious about the full list of symptoms, certainly. But yeah, another misconception, I would say, lies in the assumption over what that trauma was. I would say assumption is the enemy of wisdom and the food of ignorance. And people can get PTSD for a variety of reasons. We've talked a little bit about those. You can even sort of get it from knowing someone who's experienced a trauma.   Michael Hingson ** 39:56 And I like that. You know, assumption is. Say that again,   Kara Joubert ** 40:02 assumption is the enemy of wisdom and the food of ignorance,   Michael Hingson ** 40:07 enemy of wisdom and food of ignorance. Yeah, there you   Kara Joubert ** 40:11 go. I won't even copyright it. It's all yours.   Michael Hingson ** 40:17 That's okay, yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 40:18 okay. Well, that's good to hear. No. The other thing is, PTSD can go away. It's not a lifelong mental health condition, or at least it doesn't have to be. And people who have PTSD, I think there's more awareness of this now, but sometimes long standing prejudices can can linger. And people who have PTSD, I mean, it seems obvious to say, but they're not weak. They are traumatized, but this is just one part of their story, and it's a part that can, through therapy, through the right sort of support systems, be healed. All humans are complex, and I don't think anyone should be solely defined on their diagnosis, because a diagnosis isn't an identity. It's a part of the identity. But sometimes this is a part, and in the case of PTSD, it's a part that can be healed. The last thing is, you know, it affects a massive number of the population. We've spoken a bit about the statistics before. PTSD, UK says that one in 10 people are expected to experience PTSD in their lifetime. That's 10% which is pretty high for something that, in my mind, at least, isn't spoken about as often as other conditions, such as autism, such as ADHD, that tend to get a lot of the talking points spotlight that we see in media. So those are a few of the misconceptions. I would say,   Michael Hingson ** 41:59 when you meet or encounter someone, how do you know whether they're dealing with PTSD or not? Or is that something that people can tell and kind of the reason for asking that is one of the questions that basically comes up is, what are some good and bad ways to deal with someone who has PTSD? But how do you even know in the first place?   Kara Joubert ** 42:21 That's a good question. I think sometimes it can be a little more obvious. Again, I would avoid any assumptions. Even if someone has experienced something traumatic, it doesn't mean that they will automatically get PTSD. This doesn't affect everyone who's gone through a trauma. It does show through in some physical ways. In my experience, someone who is quite perhaps disconnected and among the more obvious symptoms, perhaps panic attacks, relating to triggers and these are some of the ways you can see someone who has PTSD, but generally, the only way you will truly know is if that person says, or you're a therapist and you're able to do a diagnosis, there's that duration, but that would be quite A challenge, I think, for any therapist to undertake So certainly it can show through, but I do think the only way you'll really be able to know is if a person discloses that information with you.   Michael Hingson ** 43:35 So if there are people listening to us today who have or think they have PTSD. What would you say to them?   Kara Joubert ** 43:45 I would say you are not broken beyond repair. And it's so easy to take blame upon yourself for the trauma that we carry, and it's easy to think that this is just a part of yourself that you you need to hold on to, as in, internalize in such a way that hopelessness can sometimes be, unfortunately, a part of that. But maybe you are. You know, going back to it's easy to take blame upon yourself, it's undeserved, because maybe you were at the wrong plane place at the wrong time, or you trusted someone and they betrayed that trust. But the power of hindsight comes only after, not during. Is one thing I will people with PTSD, and then was a time of survival. You know, you did what you could to the best of your abilities at the time, but now is the time for healing, and it can be scary opening up, but in doing so, particularly through therapy, you realize just how normal you are, no matter how different, how ice. Related sort of these thoughts and feelings our emotions are, I mean, to go back to my story, I genuinely felt like my head was imploding every single day, and the only time of peace I really got was between waking up that split second after waking up and realizing I had another day to get through. That was the only time where I truly felt at ease. And you know, going back to you are not broken beyond repair, the brain is amazing. And I would say to people with PTSD, yes, your brain is amazing, but it's been holding on to the survival mechanism, and if it's been causing you pain and fear, then I, you know, implore you to consider that there is hope, and despite the lies that our heads can sometimes tell you, are capable of healing with the right tools. Now, I would say, if the symptoms of PTSD feel relevant to people listening, or even if they suspect something is wrong, regardless of whether they can identify a trauma or not, because sometimes these things are really hidden in the back of our heads, I would suggest looking into therapy. Cognitive Behavioral Therapy did a world of good. For me. There are other forms of therapy, but for me, that was very effective, and although not everyone's healing journey is the same, I would recommend people to just get help. That is the bottom line. If I could summarize in two words, get help. And I say this as someone who got help and it has made a world of massive difference   Michael Hingson ** 46:40 in my life, how long were you in therapy?   Kara Joubert ** 46:43 Oh, good question. I would say, probably for about, let's see, for about two years. But then, as far as, like the actual PTSD is concerned, the most confronting part of therapy, because it isn't the most comfortable process tackling trauma, the more difficult parts of therapy probably lasted for about, I want to say, six months, but that was six months of improvement. That wasn't just six months of feeling nothing but sort of frustration and distress. No I saw in those six months, even within the first week, even I saw there was improvement, but yeah, as far as, like, the hardcore processing of the PTSD that probably lasted for about six months to a year, and then I still went to therapy for some time after that, but by that point, the symptoms had definitely diminished quite a bit.   Michael Hingson ** 47:49 Okay, well, if we're going to get real serious, so are you drawing still today?   Kara Joubert ** 47:55 Oh, that's most difficult question you've asked me on this. I still do. Yes, I I would show you a few of my drawings, but I think that would be a fruitless pursuit. Yes, well,   Michael Hingson ** 48:09 some people can see them on on YouTube. But what do you draw today?   Kara Joubert ** 48:13 Are you recording this visually as well for Okay, well, in that case, for the folks back home, but if   Michael Hingson ** 48:18 you're going to hold them up, you have to tell us what they are, for those of us who don't see them. Yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 48:22 see them, of course, of course. So I've definitely expanded my horizons since drawing. I also do watercolor and acrylic and oil anything sort of artsy I absolutely love. And I'm holding to the camera now, sort of a small, a, well, I say small, it's about an a Ford sized picture of a whale. But within that whale, I have drawn, not drawn, sorry, painted a watercolor galaxy. Oh, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 49:01 So the whale. So the whale is the the border of the galaxy,   Kara Joubert ** 49:05 exactly, and it's surrounded by white so this is one of my cheat paintings, because it's quite easy to do, but yeah, I have drawn quite a few other things. My dad was a graphic sorry. My dad was a graphic designer, so I've I'm going to blame that side of the genetic pool for interest.   Michael Hingson ** 49:28 Or you can say you came by it quite honestly, which is fair,   Kara Joubert ** 49:34 maybe a combination of both.   Michael Hingson ** 49:35 So you, you decided, so you, went through homeschooling, and did you get a diploma like people normally do in school? Or how does all that work with homeschooling?   Kara Joubert ** 49:49 Yeah, so homeschooling is probably another thing that has a few misconceptions attached to it, but truth be told, everyone's approach is different. So, yes, you will still get the homeschooled family who, you know, focus mostly on things such as sewing and cooking and doing all that. I would, I would recommend people don't assume automatically, that's what homeschooling looks like. I've been given that assumption before, that oh, I'm homeschooled. That must mean I'm, like, really good at cooking I am, but not because of the homeschooling. I did sit my GCSEs, which I'm not sure what the equivalent is in America, but it's the exams you sit when you're around 16. And I did reasonably okay, I would say I also sat them a bit early because I could so as to get that out of the way. And then, as for my A levels, which is the next set of exams, I chose sociology, politics and law as my three subjects, and I did pretty okay in those as well. I got 2b and a C, which, you know, I can't, I can't scoff at that. I was very close to getting two A's and a B, and that's, that's something I've I've since let go, because now, starting university, I am pretty much an A student. So going back to the teachers who said I couldn't, ha, ha,   Michael Hingson ** 51:31 yeah, you should go visit your your former teachers, and say, Hey, check this out.   Kara Joubert ** 51:36 The school might the school's been shut down since then. So   Michael Hingson ** 51:40 um, there you go see So, yeah, good decisions,   Kara Joubert ** 51:44 more than that, but yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 51:48 well, so what are you studying in university?   Kara Joubert ** 51:51 Yes, so I'm studying, I'd say mostly two things, one officially and one unofficially. Officially, I'm studying journalism. That is what my degree, and that has been so much fun. I mean, it's through the journalism course that we actually first met, because you were a guest on Alex left hooks podcast, and that's when first introduced. So I and I was on that podcast because of my journalism studies, at least that's how I met Alex myself, and it's been such a fun experience of being able to speak with a variety of people. And from going going from someone's social anxiety to going to a place where I actually love speaking to people is another massive change, and the journalism degree has been great in sort of pushing me out of my comfort zone from that point of view. And now I love talking to people, as you might or may not have already gathered, and unofficially, I'm studying filmmaking. So, oh, I've got the journalism side of things, but then I will. I can't use the word sneak, because the lecturers, the film lecturers, know I'm there, but I will go to certain film lectures and screenwriting seminars. And through sort of this extracurricular pursuit, I've been able to make a few short films, which has been another incredible experience that I would never have seen coming to be honest,   Michael Hingson ** 53:27 in this country, we wouldn't call it sneak we would call it auditing, your auditing, which is probably a polite way of saying sneaking, but that's okay.   Kara Joubert ** 53:37 I'm like, Yeah, I'll need to apply that. I have been called an adopted film student by one of the lecturers.   Michael Hingson ** 53:44 Well, I could be adopted. That's okay.   Kara Joubert ** 53:47 There you go. It's still a loving family. I feel very to hear, yeah, very supportive environment. Fantastic.   Michael Hingson ** 53:55 Well, if you could go back and talk to the younger Cara, what would you say?   Kara Joubert ** 54:01 Oh, gosh, it's going to be even better than Okay, without summarizing it like without putting it too bluntly as to say, okay, chill. Yeah, I understood why a lot of the things going through my mind were quite overwhelming. And I think I need to give that kid some credit, because she definitely was put through a lot, and she did manage to get through on the other end. So I would say, yeah, it's going to be even better than okay, you're more capable than you realize, you're stronger than you realize,   Michael Hingson ** 54:35 which is, of course, something that we talk about on unstoppable mindset all the time, which is that people are more unstoppable than they think. They are. They underrate themselves, and it's so important that more people recognize that they can do more than they think, and they shouldn't sell themselves short. Yeah,   Kara Joubert ** 54:53 absolutely. And I would say there's sorry you go and   Michael Hingson ** 54:59 it happens all. Often that they sell themselves short.   Kara Joubert ** 55:04 No, absolutely. I mean, I was just about to say it's almost like there's a the word pandemic has been overused, and perhaps, you know, relates to some unfortunate events in 2019 2020 but I would say there is a bit of a pandemic of negativity, and I have seen it among my peers, where people do sell themselves, sell themselves short, yeah, and I think there is a lot of power in the way we talk over ourselves, and a lot of power in the way we talk about others. And I've heard it all too often that a situation is hopeless. As someone who's come from what could have been a hopeless situation, I renounced that statement quite a bit, because it's very rare. I would say that a situation is truly hopeless. And even when it is hopeless, there is still some good to be had in the future, and that is so worth holding on to.   Michael Hingson ** 56:10 What what caused you to decide to do some traveling and studying abroad? How did all that work?   Kara Joubert ** 56:17 Yeah. So as I said, I used to be someone who was very scared to even leave the house. How did I make the jump from that to here? Well, the therapy definitely helped, because my therapist was aware of my autistic side of things and was able to give me some techniques to be able to feel more comfortable, at ease around people outside of my, I want to say, comfort zones, and yeah, I was able to apply that. The opportunity came around quite unexpectedly. There was a talk that we had as a as a year group, the first year, I think, of journalism. And very early on, you had to decide whether or not you are going to apply, because there was a deadline. And at the time that I applied, I will admit I didn't feel 100% ready, but I was putting hope. I was putting faith in there would be a future in which I will be ready, because that's what I want. I want to be able to get out of my comfort zone. Because one thing I found is outside of the comfort zone, there are amazing opportunities, amazing things happen. So I applied, and I didn't hear back for a while, and then there were some interviews, and it was at the interview stage where I really had to, you know, fight for my position as someone who was going to study abroad. And I did. And I think for this particular setup in Australia, 30 students applied, and only three were accepted. Thankfully, I was one of those.   Michael Hingson ** 57:53 And so you're spending the winter in Australia.   Kara Joubert ** 57:57 Yeah, I am, which a lot of people might think isn't too bad, in consideration to the UK, perhaps not too too bad. But it is getting quite cold here. It can get cold in Australia, maybe not quite cold enough to snow. But there have been days where it's been 11 degrees Celsius, which is quite chilly,   Michael Hingson ** 58:17 which is quite chilly, yeah. Well, right now it's, I think, where I am, about 36 Celsius,   Kara Joubert ** 58:27 beautiful, degrees Celsius. We're not working in   Michael Hingson ** 58:30 Fahrenheit. Thank you, Celsius.   Kara Joubert ** 58:33 I appreciate that. My British Self does appreciate it.   Michael Hingson ** 58:38 Actually, it is actually it's about 38 Celsius outside right now. So toasty.   Kara Joubert ** 58:49 Yeah, I can imagine that's probably a little too toasty. Surely, are you planning to into the great outdoors? Are you staying safe inside?   Michael Hingson ** 58:58 I'm staying mostly inside. I'll go out with Alamo a little bit, but it's pretty warm out there, so I'll stay in here. Well, this has been really fun, and clearly you've been very unstoppable, and intend to stay that way, which is as good as it could possibly get. And we really appreciate it, and I really appreciate your time being here with us today. So I want to thank you for that, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope that Cara has given you some really insightful and interesting things to think about and to go away and ponder. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. If you did, I'd love to hear from you. You can reach me. Michael, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, wherever you're listening or watching, please give us a five star review. We value your reviews very highly. Cara, if people want to reach out to you, is there a way to do that? Of.   Kara Joubert ** 1:00:00 Course, yeah, I would love to hear from people I am accessible through variety of ways. I've got my website, which is just my name.com,   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:08 um, so that's spelled all that for me, K, A R A,   Kara Joubert ** 1:00:11 K A R, A, J, o, u, B, E R t.com, and there people will find my project, and they'll also find a way to contact me and I am findable on social media as courage you bear media.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:32 Cool now, with you being in journalism, when are you going to write a book?   Kara Joubert ** 1:00:38 That's a very good question. I really might not have a few things going on the side. Yeah, what's the space?   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:47 Well, I want to thank you again, and I really appreciate you all being here with us today. And if you know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on the podcast, and Cara you as well. Please introduce us. Send us an email. Michael H i@accessibe.com there are lots of podcast episodes. We hope that you'll find them. You can always find them on my website, which is www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast, and Michael hingson is spelled M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, so love to hear from you, and both car and I would really appreciate anything that you have to say. And once more, car, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely fun.   Kara Joubert ** 1:01:35 Thank you. I've had a completely fun time here myself. Thank you. It's been an absolute joy.   Michael Hingson ** 1:01:47 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

In this episode, I unveil the amazing, the incredible secret sauce secret ingredient! Funnily enough, it was never secret and it was under your nose the whole time! Ever wonder what it is that makes for the best nights? When you're feeling yourself, when people are just throwing their money at you? Well this is the episode for you!

This episode we are covering the end of the reign of Naka no Oe, aka Tenji Tennou.  We cover the events in the Chronicles, including the death of Nakatomi no Kamatari, the creation of the Fujiwara family, the destruction of Goguryeo, and the continued development of the Baekje refugees. For more, check out the podcast blog at: https://sengokudaimyo.com/podcast/episode-128 Rough Transcript Welcome to Sengoku Daimyo's Chronicles of Japan.  My name is Joshua and this is episode 128: Immigrants, Princes, and High Officials. There was a pall over the house, despite the visiting royal retinue creating something of a stir,.  While craftspeople were still hard at work repairing damage from the lightning strike only a few months earlier, that wasn't the reason for the low spirits.  Rather, the house was worried for their patriarch, the Naidaijin, Nakatomi no Kamatari.  He had fallen ill, and despite all the pleas to the kami and the Buddhas , it seemed the end might be near. And so even the sovereign himself had come.  Kamatari was not just a loyal official, but  a close friend of the sovereign, someone who had been there since the beginning.  And so we can imagine how Naka no Oe felt.  He may have been the sovereign of Yamato, but he was still a human being, visiting his friend of some 30 or so years, knowing that for all of the power that he held, there was nothing he could do against the ravages of time and disease.     The year is 668—Naka no Oe has moved the capital to Ohotsu, on the banks of Lake Biwa, and has formally assumed the throne. This episode we are going to cover the last several years of Naka no Oe's reign.  In contrast to last week's dive into Yamato science, this week is going to be a bit of a grab bag, looking at what was going on in Yamato and talking about what was recorded in the Chronicles. And for the most part, the entries for the rest of the year 668 are fairly normal, and yet there are some oddities… For instance, in the fourth month we are told that Baekje sent Mitosapu and others to offer tribute.  And any other time that would be just a normal thing.  Except that at this point in history, Baekje was about as going a concern as a parrot in a Monty Python sketch.  So if the Kingdom of Baekje was no longer a thing, who was it that was sending the tribute? Most likely it was the Baekje communities in exile living in the archipelago.  Remember how many of them had settled around Biwa and in 666, two thousand Baekje people were settled somewhere in the East.  These immigrants  were still being supported by the Yamato government, who were basically subsidizing their settlement for the first three years, during which time they would be expected to make it into a permanent settlement. Based on the way the Chronicles talk about it, these early Baekje communities sound like they were maintaining a kind of kingdom in exile.  With many immigrants from Baekje living together in proximity, they were likely keeping their own groups, with their own language and traditions, at least for now.  It would be interesting to know if there were specific Baekje settlements that have been identified through the archaeological record.   That said, we definitely see Baekje's mark on the archipelago: Physically, there are the Baekje style castles, and various temples following Baekje style layouts.  Of course there were also continental building styles, but some of that was shared across multiple cultures at this point, and one should consider how much Baekje influence might have been found in things that we later see as Japanese. Additionally, Baekje nobles were involved in the court, often given court rank based in part on their rank in Baekje, though it wasn't quite equivalent.  Still,  in time, some of the nobles would trace their lineages back to Baekje nobles and princes. Speaking of princes and Baekje, on the fifth day of the fifth month of 668 —a day that would come to be known as Ayame no hi, or Tango no Sekku, one of the major days of court ceremony—Naka no Oe went out hunting on the moor of Kamafu, known today as Gamou district, near Kanzaki, where 400 Baekje people had been settled.  He was out there with the Crown Prince, his younger brother, aka Prince Ohoama, and all the other princes and ministers.  A grand outing. A month later, however, tragedy struck.  One “Prince Ise” and his younger brother died on consecutive days.  While this was undoubtedly a blow to the court, the interesting thing for our purposes – which also highlights the challenge of interpreting the Chronicles is that we aren't exactly sure who this is referring to.  It's not the first time we've seen this title: we first see a “Prince Ise” show up around 650, during the presentation of the white pheasant that ushered in the Hakuho era, but we later see that that individual had passed away in 661.  We also see the name show up less than 20 years later in the Chronicles for another prince, so this can't be the same.  So this is clearly a position or title for a prince, but it isn't clear if it was passed down or inherited.   One possibility is that “Prince Ise” or “Prince of Ise” was a title for one of the royal sons. IAt this point in the narrative, Naka no Oe had three sons.  Prince Takeru had passed away at the age of 8, but he also had Prince Kawajima, Prince Shiki, and Prince Iga, aka Prince Ohotomo, all sons of “palace women”.  We know, though, that these princes show up later, so I don't think the so-called Prince Ise was one of them.  Perhaps another line?   The term “Prince” might also refer to something other than a royal son.  You see, English translators have often been somewhat cavalier with the way we tend to render titles.  The English term “Prince” has  been used for “Hiko”, “Miko”, or “Ou” (which was probably pronounced “Miko” in many of these cases).  And in English, we often think of “Prince” as the son of a king, but “Prince” can also be an independent ruler of a principality, or may just refer to a person with power in a monarchic state.  Even the term “king” is not unambiguous—early European accounts of Japan during the Warring States period often refer to the various daimyou as “kings”, given the often absolute dominion with which they apparently ruled their particular domains. At this time, the term “Miko”  (also pronounced “ouji”, or “koushi”, or even “sume-miko”) seems rather unambiguously to refer to a “royal prince”, from the lineage of the sovereign.  The term “Ou”, which also seems to be read as “Miko” in some cases, is also the term for “King” and probably more broadly fits the concept of a “prince” as a ruler.  However, in this case, it seems to be equal to the term “Miko”, and may have been used almost interchangeably for a time, though later it would be used to refer to members of princely rank who were not directly related to a reigning sovereign—the grandchildren and so forth of royal princes who did not go on to inherit. In this case, I think the best we can say for certain is that Prince Ise—or the Prince of Ise—was someone important enough to be included in the chronicles – but who he was, exactly, will remain a mystery for now. The following month, the 7th month, was chock full of activities.  First of all, Goguryeo sent envoys by way of Koshi—meaning they landed on the Japan Sea side, probably around Tsuruga.  While this may just have been closer, I suspect it meant they avoided any Tang entanglements traveling through the Bohai sea.  They did run into a spot of trouble, however, as the winds and waves prevented their return. Koshi also shows up as presenting some strange gifts to the court:  burning earth and burning water.  There is some thought that maybe this is something like coal or natural oil deposits. We are also told that in this month, Prince Kurikuma was appointed the governor of Tsukushi.  Kurikuma no Ou appears to have been the grandson—or possibly great-grandson—of the sovereign, Nunakura, aka Bidatsu Tennou.  The position Kurikuma was given was important, of course, overseeing the Dazai, which meant overseeing anyone traveling to the archipelago from the continent. This would be a relatively short-lived appointment—this time.  He would be re-appointed about three years later, which would prove important, as he would be governor there during some particularly momentous events.    Stories appear to have continued about him in the Nagasaki region, and various families traced their lineage back to him. Also in that month, we are told that Afumi, home of the new capital, practiced military exercises—likely in preparation in case of a future Tang or Silla invasion.  Recall we discussed in Episode 126 how the choice of Afumi as a capital site might have been related to its defensibility in the event of such an invasion. At the same time, the court entertained Emishi envoys, and the toneri, by royal command, held banquets in various places. There is also mention of a shore-pavillion, presumably at Lake Biwa, where fish of various kinds came, covering the water.  Interestingly enough, there is another story of a “shore pavilion”, likely the same one, in the Fujiwara Family Record, the Toushi Kaden.  We are told that Prince Ohoama – Naka no Oe's younger brother spiked a large spear through a plank of wood in some kind of feat of strength.  This apparently shocked Naka no Oe, who saw it aa  kind of threat—perhaps seeing that his five-years younger brother was still hale and healthy.  Granted, Naka no Oe was only in his 40s, but his brother Ohoama was in his later 30s.  We are also told that at this time, in 668, Naka no Oe was apparently not doing so well, with people wondering if he would be with them much longer. The Toshi Kaden account seems rather surprising in that it claims Naka no Oe was so shocked by this proof of his brother's vitality that he wanted to have him put to death, suggesting to me that he felt that Ohoama might be a threat to him and his rule.  Ultimately, though, he was talked out of this by his old friend, Nakatomi no Kamatari – the one whom he had plotted with to overthrow the Soga, and whose relationship was initiated by an interaction on the kemari field, as we discussed in Episode 106. Speaking of whom: Nakatomi no Kamatari was still Naijin, the Inner or Interior Minister, and so  quite prominent in the administration. In the 9th month, as a Silla envoy was visiting the court, Kamatari sent Buddhist priests Hoben and Shinpitsu to present a ship to the Prime Minister of Silla, which was given to the Silla envoy and his companions, and three days later, Fuse no Omi no Mimimaro was sent with a ship meant for the King of Silla as well. This incident is also recounted in the Toshi Kaden.  In this case it says that the people, hearing about the gifts to Silla, were quite upset.  After all, it stands to reason:  Yamato was still smarting from their defeat at the hands of Tang and Silla forces, and building up defenses in case of an attack.  They'd also taken in a number of Baekje nobles and families, who may have also had some influence on the court.  We are told that Kamatari himself excused all of this by stating that “All under heaven must be the sovereign's land.  The guests within its borders must be the sovereign's servants.”  In this case, all under heaven, or “Tenka”, is a common phrase used to describe a monarch's sovereignty over everything in the land.  And so, while Silla envoys were in Yamato as guests, they also fell under similar rules, and as such were considered, at least by Yamato, as the sovereign's servants and thus worthy of gifts. The Silla envoys stayed for over a month.  They finally departed by the 11th month of 668, carrying even more gifts, including silk and leather for the King and various private gifts for the ambassadors themselves.  The court even sent Chimori no Omi no Maro and Kishi no Woshibi back with the envoy as Yamato envoys to the Silla court. This all tells us that just as the Tang were working to woo Yamato, Silla was likely doing so as well.  And while Yamato might still begrudge the destruction of Baekje, they also had to face the political reality that Baekje was probably not going to be reinstated again—especially not while the Tang government was occupying the peninsula. So making nice with both Tang and Silla was prudent. Furthermore, though they had been visited by Goguryeo envoys earlier that year, Yamato may have had some inkling that Goguryeo was not in the most powerful position.  Ever since the death of Yeon Gaesomun, the Goguryeo court had been involved in infighting—as well as fighting their external enemies.  One of Gaesomun's sons had been exiled and had gone over to the Tang, no doubt providing intelligence as well as some amount of legitimacy.  What they may not have known was that as Yamato was hosting the Silla envoys, a new assault by the Tang-Silla alliance was advancing on Pyongyang and setting siege to the city.  The Nihon Shoki records that in the 10th month of 668 Duke Ying, the Tang commander-in-chief, destroyed Goguryeo. This would dramatically change the international political landscape.  Tang and Silla had been triumphant—Yamato's allies on the peninsula had been defeated, and what we know as the “Three Kingdoms” period of the Korean peninsula was over.  However, the situation was still fluid.  The peninsula was not unified by any sense of the imagination.  The Tang empire had their strategic positions from which they controlled parts of the peninsula and from which they had been supplying the war effort against Goguryeo.  They also likely had to occupy areas to ensure that nobody rose up and tried to reconstitute the defeated kingdoms.  In fact, there would be continued attempts to revive Goguryeo, as might be indicated in the name we use: by the 5th century, the country was actually using the name “Goryeo”, a shortened form of “Goguryeo”, but we continue to refer to it as “Goguryeo” to distinguish it from the country of the same name that would be established in 918, laying claim to that ancient Goguryeo identity. A bit of spoilers, but “Goryeo” is where we would eventually get the name that we know the region by, today:  “Korea”.  In the Nihon Shoki it is referred to as “Gaori”. But none of that could have been known at the time.  Instead, there was no doubt some exuberance on the side of both Silla and Tang, but that would settle into something of unease.  With Baekje and Goguryeo destroyed, Silla may have thought that Tang would leave, allowing them to solidify their hold and manage those territories as an ally.  If this is what they thought, though, I'm not sure they had run it by the Tang empire just yet. In the Yamato court, there appear to have been separate factions: a pro-Tang faction, and also a pro-Silla faction.  We have to assume, based on the actions in the record at this time, that this was a ongoing debate. The last thing I'll note for the year 668 is attempted theft.  The Buddhist priest Dougyou stole Kusanagi, the famous sword forming part of the imperial regalia, and escaped with it.  Kusanagi, you may recall, was the royal sword.  It was named “Kusanagi” or “grass cutter” because it is said that when Prince Yamato Takeru was subduing the eastern lands, he was surrounded in a field that had been set on fire, and he used Kusanagi to create a firebreak by cutting down all of the grass around him.  The sword was given to him by Yamato Hime, the Ise Princess at the time, and it was thought to have been first found by the god Susanowo inside of the legendary Yamata no Orochi.  We talked about this in Episodes 16, 34, and 35.  Yamato Takeru left the sword in Owari, and it would eventually live there, at Atsuta Jingu, Atsuta Shrine, its traditional home. It isn't clear if Dougyou obtained the sword from Owari or if it was being kept in the capital at the time.  It would have likely been brought out for Naka no Oe's coronation, but then it would probably have been returned to the shrine that was holding it. Dougyou tried to head to Silla with his illicit goods, but wind and rain forced him to turn back around.  This is a fascinating story and there's a lot to dive into here. So first off, let's point out that this is supposed to be a Buddhist priest.  What the heck was going on that he was going to try to run a heist on what are essentially the Crown Jewels of the Yamato crown?  While the sword, mirror, and jewel were still somewhat questionable as the sole three regalia, they were clearly important.  We aren't given Dougyou's motives.  We don't know enough about him.  Was he anti-Yamato or anti-Naka no Oe?  Was he actually a Buddhist priest of his own accord, or was he a priest because he was one of those who had been essentially conscripted into religious orders on behalf of some powerful noble?  Was he a Buddhist who wanted to attack the hold of the kami? Was he pro-Silla, or perhaps even a Silla descendant, trying to help Silla? Or was he just a thief who saw the sword, Kusanagi, as a valuable artifact that could be pawned outside of Yamato? That last possibility feels off.  While we aren't exactly sure what Kusanagi looked like, based on everything we know, the sword itself wasn't necessarily blinged out in a way that would make it particularly notable on the continent.    And if Dougyou and whoever his co-conspirators were just wanted to attack the Yamato government, why didn't he just dump Kusanagi in the see somewhere?  He could have destroyed it or otherwise gotten rid of it in a way that would have embarrassed the government. It seems mostly likely that this theft had something to do with pro-Silla sentiment, as if Silla suddenly showed up with the sword, I imagine that would have been some diplomatic leverage on the Yamato court, as they could have held it hostage.  In any case, the plan ultimately failed, though the Chronicles claim it was only because the winds were against him—which was likely seen as the kami themselves defending Yamato. On to a new year.  At the start of 669, Prince Kurikuma (who we mentioned above) was recalled to the capital and Soga no Akaye was appointed governor of Tsukushi. We mentioned Akaye a couple of episodes back.  He was involved in the broken arm-rest incident, where Prince Arima was plotting against Takara Hime, aka Saimei Tennou, and Akaye's daughter Hitachi no Iratsume, was one of the formal wives of Naka no Oe, who would give birth to the princess Yamabe. Now Akaye was given the position of governor of Tsukushi. This position is an interesting one throughout Japanese history.  In many ways it is a viceroy—the governor of Tsukushi has to effectively speak with the voice of the sovereign as the person responsible for overseeing any traffic to and from the continent.  This also was likely a highly lucrative position, only handed out to trusted individuals. However, it also meant that you were outside of the politics of the court.  Early on that was probably less of a concern.  At this time, court nobles were likely still concerned with their traditional lands, which created their economic base, meaning that the court may have been the political center, but there was still plenty of ways to gain power in the archipelago and it wasn't solely through the court.  Over time, as more and more power accrued to the central court government, that would change.  Going out to manage a government outpost on the far end of the archipelago—let alone just going back to manage one's own estates—would be tantamount to exile.  But for now, without a permanent city built up around the palace, I suspect that being away from the action in the capital wasn't quite as detrimental compared to the lucrative nature of a powerful position.  Later, we will see how that flips on its head, especially with the construction of capitals on the model of those like Chang'an. For now, new governor Soga no Akaye was likely making the most of his position.  On that note, in the third month of 669, Tamna sent their prince Kumaki with envoys and tribute.  They would have come through Tsukushi, and Soga no Akaye likely enjoyed some benefits as they were entertained while waiting for permission to travel the rest of the way down to the Yamato capital.  The Tamna embassy did not exactly linger at the court.  They arrived on the 11th of the 3rd month, and left one week—seven days—later, on the 18th.  Still, they left with a gift of seed-grain made to the King of Tamna. On their way out, they likely would have again stopped in at Tsukushi for provisions and to ensure that all of their business was truly concluded before departing. A couple of months later, on the 5th day of the 5th month, we see another hunting party by Naka no Oe.  This seems to have been part of the court ritual of the time for this ceremonial day.  This time it was on the plain of Yamashina.  It was attended by his younger brother, Crown Prince Ohoama, as well as someone called “Fujiwara no Naidaijin” and all of the ministers. “Fujiwara no Naidaijin” is no doubt Nakatomi no Kamatari.  This is an interesting slip by the Chroniclers, and I wonder if it gives us some insight into the source this record came from.  Kamatari was still known as Nakatomi at the time, and was still the Naidaijin, so it is clear they were talking about him.  But historically his greatest reputation is as the father of the Fujiwara family, something we will get to in time.  That said, a lot of the records in this period refer to him as “Fujiwara”.  We've seen this previously—because the records were being written later they were often using a more common name for an individual, rather than the name—including title—that the individual actually would have borne at the time of the record.  This really isn't that different from the way we often talk about the sovereigns using their posthumous names.   Naka no Oe would not have been known as “Tenji Tennou” during his reign.  That wouldn't be used until much later.  And yet, many history books will, understandably, just use the name “Tenji” because it makes it clear who is being talked about. This hunting trip is not the only time we see the name “Fujiwara” creep into the Chronicles a little earlier than accurate: we are told that only a little later, the house of “Fujiwara” no Kamatari was struck by lightning.  But that wasn't the only tragedy waiting in the wings.  Apparently, Kamatari was not doing so well, and on the 10th day of the 10th month, his friend and sovereign, Naka no Oe, showed up to pay his respects and see how he was doing. Ever since that fateful game of kemari—Japanese kickball—the two had been fast friends.  Together they envisioned a new state.  They overthrew the Soga, and changed the way that Japan even conceived of the state, basing their new vision off continental ideas of statehood, governance, and sovereignty.  Now, Kamatari was gravely ill. What happens next is likely of questionable veracity Sinceit is unlikely that someone was there writing down the exact words that were exchanged, but the Chronicles record a conversation between the sovereign and his ill friend.  And the words that the Chroniclers put in their mouths were more about the image that they wanted to project.  According to them, Naka no Oe praised his friend, and asked if there was anything that he could do. Kamatari supposedly eschewed anything special for burial arrangements.  He supposedly said “While alive I did no service for my country at war; why, then, should I impose a heavy burden on it when I am dead?”  Hard to know if he actually felt like that or not, or if thr Chroniclers were likening him to  Feng Yi of the Han dynasty, the General of the Great Tree.  He was so-called because he would often find a tree to take time to himself.  He likewise was renowned for his dislike of ostentation, much like Kamatari foregoing a fancy burial mound. Five days later, Naka no Oe sent Crown Prince Ohoama to Kamatari's house to confer on him the cap of Dai-shiki, and the rank of Oho-omi.  They also conferred on him and his family a new surname:  Fujiwara, and so he became Fujiwara no Daijin, the Fujiwara Great Minister.  The next day he died.  One source known as the Nihon Seiki, said that he was 50 years old, but according to the Chronicles there was an inscription on his tomb that stated he died at age 55. Three days later, we are told that Naka no Oe went to the house of the now late Fujiwara no Naidaijin, and gave orders to Soga no Akaye no Omi, declaring to him his gracious will and bestowing on him a golden incense-burner.  This is somewhat odd, because as we were just talking about, Soga no Akaye had been appointed governor of Tsukushi, though the Toshi Kaden claims that it was actually Soga no Toneri who was in Tsukushi—but these could also mean the same people.  Why this happened right after Kamatari's death suggests to me that Soga no Akaye may have had something to do with the arrangements for Kamatari's funeral or something similar. Let's talk about this whole incident.  There are many that think the Nihon Shoki has things a bit out of order, and on purpose.  Specifically, it is quite likely that the name “Fujiwara” was actually granted after Kamatari's death, and not on the day of, as it has here.  He may even have been posthumously elevated.  But since the Fujiwara family would go on to be quite powerful, the order of events and how they were recorded would have been very important in the 8th century. By naming Kamatari's line the Fujiwara, the court were effectively severing it from the rest of the Nakatomi.  The Nakatomi family would continue to serve as court ritualists, but the Fujiwara family would go on to much bigger and better things.  This change also likely meant that any inheritance of Kamatari's would go to his direct descendants, and that a brother or cousin couldn't necessarily just take over as the head of the household.  So it's very possible that this “setting apart” of the Fujiwara family immediately upon Kamatari's death is a later fiction, encouraged by the rising Fujiwara themselves, in an attempt to keep others from hanging on to their coat tails, as it were. Also a quick note about the idea that there was an inscription on Kamatari's tomb.  This is remarkable because so far, we have not actually found any such markers or tombstones on burials prior to this period.  We assume that they would have been stone or wood markers that were put up by a mound to let you know something about the person who was buried there.  Over time, most of these likely wore away.  But it is interesting to think that the practice may have had older roots. The death of Kamatari wasn't the only tragedy that year.  We are also told that in the 12th month there was a fire in the Treasury, and that the temple of Ikaruga—known to us as Houryuuji, the temple built by Shotoku Taishi—also was burnt.  It isn't said how bad, but only three months later, in 670, another fire struck during a thunderstorm, and we are told that everything burned down—nothing was left. That said, it seems that they may have been able to reuse some of the materials.  I say this because an analysis of the main pillar of the pagoda in the western compound suggests that the tree it came from was felled in 594. The rest of 699 included some less dramatic events. For instance, in the 8th month, Naka no Oe climbed to the top of Takayasu, where he took advice as to how to repair the castle there.  The castle had been built only a couple of years earlier, but already needed repairs.  However, the initial repair project had been abandoned because the labor costs were too much.  The repairs were still needed, though, and they carried out the work four months later in the 12th month, and again in the 2nd month of the following year, and that stores of grain and salt were collected, presumably to stock the castle in case they had to withstand a siege. I suspect that the “cost” of repairing the castle was mostly that it was the 8th month, and the laborers for the work would have to be taken away from the fields.  By the 12th month, I can only assume that those same laborers would be free from their other duties. Speaking of costs, sometimes the Chronicles really make you wonder what was going through the mind of the writers, because they noted that the Land-tax of the Home Provinces was collected.  Maybe this was the first time it had actually been instituted?  I don't know.  It just seems an odd thing to call out. There was also 700 more men from Baekje removed and settled in Kamafu—Gamou District—in Afumi.  And then there was a Silla embassy in the 9th month, and at some point in the year Kawachi no Atahe no Kujira and others were sent to the Tang court.  In response, an embassy from the Tang to Yamato brought 2000 people with them, headed by Guo Wucong, who I really hope was getting some kind of premiere cruiser status for all of his trips. The following year, 700, started out with a great archery meeting, arranged within the palace gate.  I presume this to mean that they had a contest.  Archery at this time—and even for years to come—was prized more highly than even swordplay.  After all, archery was used both in war and on the hunt.  It is something that even the sage Confucius suggested that people should practice.  It is also helpful that they could always shoot at targets as a form of competition and entertainment. Later, on the 14th day of the 1st month, Naka no Oe promulgated new Court ceremonial regulations, and new laws about people giving way on the roads.  This rule was that those of lower status should get out of the way of those of higher status.  Funnily enough, in the description of Queen Himiko's “Yamateg”, back in the 3rd century, this was also called out as a feature of the country.  It is possible that he was codifying a local tradition, or that the tradition actually goes back to the continent, and that the Wei Chroniclers were projecting such a rule onto the archipelago.  I'm honestly not sure which is which.  Or perhaps they expanded the rules and traditions already in place.  There were also new laws about prohibiting “heedless slanders and foul falsehoods”, which sounds great, but doesn't give you a lot to go on. The law and order theme continues in the following month.  A census was taken and robbers and vagabonds were suppressed.  Naka no Oe also visited Kamafu, where he had settled a large number of the Baekje people, and inspected a site for a possible future palace.  He also had castles built in Nagato in Tsukushi, along the route of any possible invasion from the Korean peninsula. In the third month, we have evidence of the continued importance of kami worship, when they laid out places of worship close to Miwi mountain and distributed offerings of cloth.  Nakatomi no Kane no Muraji pronounced the litany.  Note that it is Nakatomi no Muraji—as we mentioned, the Nakatomi would continue to be responsible for ceremonial litany while the Imibe, or Imbe, family would be responsible for laying out the various offerings. Miwi would seem to be the same location as Miidera, aka Onjou-ji, but Miidera wouldn't be founded for another couple of years. In the 9th month of 670, Adzumi no Tsuratari, an accomplished ambassador by this point, travelled to Silla. Tsuratari had been going on missions during the reign of Takara Hime, both to Baekje and to the lands across the “Western Seas”.  While we don't exactly know what transpired, details like this can help us try to piece together something of the relative importance of the mission. In the last entry for 670, we are told that water-mills were made to smelt iron.  If you are wondering how that works, it may have been that the waterwheel powered trip hammers—it would cause the hammer to raise up until it reached a point where it would fall.  Not quite the equivalent of a modern power hammer, it still meant that fewer people were needed for the process, and they didn't have to stop just because their arms got tired. The following year, 671, got off to a grand start, with a lot of momentous events mentioned in just the first month of the year. First off, on the 2nd day of the first month, Soga no Akaye – now back from his stint as governor of Tsukushi - and Kose no Hito advanced in front of the palace and offered their congratulations on the new year.  Three days later, on the 5th day, Nakatomi no Kane, who had provided the litany at Miwi, made an announcement on kami matters.    Then the court made official appointments.  Soga no Akaye was made the Sadaijin, or Prime Minister of the Left, and Nakatomi no Kane was made Prime Minister of the Right.  Soga no Hatayasu, Kose no Hito, and Ki no Ushi were all made daibu, or high ministers.  On top of this, Naka no Ohoe's son, Prince Ohotomo, was appointed as Dajodaijin. “Dajodaijin” is a new position that we haven't seen yet, and it is one of those positions that would only show up on occasion.  It is effectively a *Prime* Prime Minister.  They were considered superior to both the ministers of the left and the right, but didn't exactly have a particular portfolio.  The Ministers of the Left and the Right each had ministries under them that they were responsible for managing.  Those ministries made up the Daijo-kan, or the Council of State.  The Dajodaijin, or Daijodaijin, was basically the pre-eminent position overseeing the Council of State.  I suspect that the Dajodaijin seems to have been the evolution of the Naidaijin, but on steroids.  Nakatomi no Kamatari had administered things as Naidaijin from within the royal household, but the Dajodaijin was explicitly at the head of the State.  Of course, Prince Ohotomo was the son of Naka no Oe himself, and the fact that he was only 23 years old and now put in a place of prominence over other ministers who were quite likely his senior, is remarkable.  I wonder how much he actually was expected to do, and how much it was largely a ceremonial position, but it nonetheless placed Ohotomo just below his uncle, Crown Prince Ohoama, in the overall power structure of the court. Speaking of which, following the new appointments, on the 6th day of the year, Crown Prince Ohoama promulgated regulations on the behalf of his brother, Naka no Oe.  There was also a general amnesty declared, and the ceremonial and names of the cap-ranks were described in what the Chronicles calls the Shin-ritsu-ryo, the New Laws. Towards the end of the first month, there were two embassies, both from now-defunct kingdoms.  The first was from Goguryeo, who reportedly sent someone named Karu and others with Tribute on the 9th day, and 4 days later, Liu Jenyuan, the Tang general for Baekje sent Li Shouchen and others to present a memorial.  I'm not sure if the Goguryeo envoys were from a government in exile or from a subjugated kingdom under Tang and Silla domination.  The Tang general in Baekje was a little more transparent.  That said, that same month we are told that more than 50 Baekje nobles were given Yamato court rank, perhaps indicating that they were being incorporated more into the Yamato court and, eventually, society as a whole.  That said, the remains of the Baekje court sent Degu Yongsyeon and others with tribute the following month. This is also the year that Naka no Oe is said to have placed the clepsydra or water clock in a new pavilion.  We talked about this significance of this last episode.  We are also told that on the third day of the third month, Kibumi no Honjitsu presented a “water level”, a Mizu-hakari.  This would seem to be what it sounds like:  A way of making sure that a surface is level using water.  There is also mention of the province of Hitachi presenting as “tribute” Nakatomibe no Wakako.  He was only 16 years old, and yet we are told he was only one and a half feet in height—one shaku six sun, more appropriately.  Assuming modern conversions, that would have put him approximately the same height as Chandra Dangi of Nepal, who passed away in 2015 but who held the Guiness World Record for the world's shortest person at 21.5”—or 54 centimeters.  So it isn't impossible. The fact that he is called “Nakatomibe” suggests that he was part of the family, or -Be group, that served the Nakatomi court ritualists.  Unfortunately, he was probably seen more as an oddity than anything else at the time.  Still, how many people from that time are not remembered at all, in any extant record?  And yet we have his name, which is more than most. In the following month, we are also told that Tsukushi reported a deer that had been born with eight legs.  Unfortunately, the poor thing died immediately, which is unfortunately too often the case. And then the fifth day of the fifth month rolled around again. This year there was no hunting, but instead Naka no Oe occupied the “Little Western Palace” and the Crown Prince and all of the ministers attended him.  We are told that two “rustic” dances were performed—presumably meaning dances of some local culture, rather than those conforming to the art standards passed down from the continent.  As noted earlier, this day would be one of the primary ceremony days of the later court. The following month, we are told that there was an announcement in regards to military measures requested by the messengers from the three departments of Baekje, and later the Baekje nobles sent Ye Chincha and others to bring tribute.  Once again, what exactly this means isn't clear, but it is interesting to note that there were three “departments” of Baekje.  It is unclear if this was considered part of the court, or if this was Baekje court in exile managing their own affairs as a guest in Yamato. It is also interesting that they seem to have been traveling to the Yamato court while Li Shouchen was still there, sent by the Tang general overseeing Baekje.  That must have been a bit of an awkward meeting.  We are told that they all took their departure together on the 11th day of the 7th month.  Does that mean they left with the Tang envoy?  Was the Tang inviting some of them to come back?  Or just that they all left the court at the same time. The same month, Prince Kurikuma was once more made Governor of Tsukushi—or possibly made governor the first time, depending on whether or not you think the Chronicles are accurate or that they pulled the same event twice from different sources.  We are also told that Silla sent envoys with gifts that included a water buffalo and a copper pheasant for the sovereign. The 8th month of the year, we hear that Karu of Goguryeo and his people took their leave after a seven month long visit.  The court also entertained the Emishi.  Two months later, Silla sent Kim Manmol and others with more tribute, but this envoy likely found a different feeling at court. And that is because on the 18th day of the 8th month, the sovereign of Yamato, Naka no Oe, took to his bed, ill.  There was a ceremony to open the eyes of 100 Buddhas in the interior of the palace, and Naka no Oe sent messengers to offer to the giant Buddha of Houkouji a kesa, a golden begging-bowl, an ivory tusk, aloeswood, sandalwood, and various objects of value, but despite any spiritual merit that may have accrued, it didn't seem to work.  Naka no Oe's illness continued to grow more serious.  He would continue to struggle for another two months, until, on the 3rd day of the twelfth month, Naka no Oe, aka Tenji Tennou, sovereign of Yamato, passed away. For all that we should be careful to avoid the “Great Man” theory of history, it is nonetheless hard to deny that Naka no Oe had an incredible impact on the country in his days.  From start to finish, while one could argue that many of the reforms were simply a matter of time as the archipelago absorbed more and more ideas from across the straits, Naka no Oe found himself in the middle of those reforms.  The Yamato State would never be the same, and he oversaw the birth of the Ritsuryo state, a new state nominally based on laws and rules, rather than just tradition.  It may not be entirely clear, but he also helped inculcate a new sense of the power of the sovereign and of the state, introducing new cultural imaginaries.  Yamato's reach wasn't just vague boasting, but by instituting the bureaucratic state they were able to actually expand the reach of the court farther than any time before. And through those changes, Naka no Oe had, in one way or another, been standing at the tiller.  Now, he was gone, as were many of his co-conspirators in this national project.  Which leaves us wondering:  What comes next? Well, we'll get to that, but not right now.  For now, let us close this episode with Naka no Oe's own end.   Next episode, we can get into the power struggles that followed, culuminating in an incident known as the Jinshin no Ran:  The Jinshin war. Until then, thank you once again for listening and for all of your support. If you like what we are doing, please tell your friends and feel free to rate us wherever you listen to podcasts.  If you feel the need to do more, and want to help us keep this going, we have information about how you can donate on Patreon or through our KoFi site, ko-fi.com/sengokudaimyo, or find the links over at our main website,  SengokuDaimyo.com/Podcast, where we will have some more discussion on topics from this episode. Also, feel free to reach out to our Sengoku Daimyo Facebook page.  You can also email us at the.sengoku.daimyo@gmail.com.  Thank you, also, to Ellen for their work editing the podcast. And that's all for now.  Thank you again, and I'll see you next episode on Sengoku Daimyo's Chronicles of Japan.  

“Alice: Would you tell me, please, which way I ought to go from here? The Cheshire Cat: That depends a good deal on where you want to get to. Alice: I don't much care where. The Cheshire Cat: Then it doesn't much matter which way you go. Alice: ...So long as I get somewhere. The Cheshire Cat: Oh, you're sure to do that, if only you walk long enough.” That is the famous dialogue between Alice and the Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland, by Lewis Carrol. And it's a great illustration of what happens when you don't know what is important to you and where you want to go. You're going to go get somewhere and that somewhere is probably going to be a place you never wanted to go to.  This week, I'll share with you why developing your Areas of Focus is so important.    You can subscribe to this podcast on:  Podbean | Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Spotify | TUNEIN   Links: Email Me | Twitter | Facebook | Website | Linkedin Areas of Focus: The Foundation Of All Solid Productivity Systems. Take the Areas of Focus Course  Get Your Copy Of Your Time, Your Way: Time Well Managed, Life Well Lived The Time Sector System 5th Year Anniversary The Working With… Weekly Newsletter Carl Pullein Learning Centre Carl's YouTube Channel Carl Pullein Coaching Programmes Subscribe to my Substack  The Working With… Podcast Previous episodes page   Script | 374 Hello, and welcome to episode 374 of the Your Time, Your Way Podcast. A podcast to answer all your questions about productivity, time management, self-development, and goal planning. My name is Carl Pullein, and I am your host of this show. So, why are your Areas of Focus important? Well, in a nutshell, they give you direction. They help you to prioritise your days and weeks and give you purpose.  Without them, you'll end up helping someone else achieve their goals, more often than not, in exchange for money, only to discover you're health is shot to pieces and you've spent your forty years of working life miserably giving away five days a week to something you hated doing.   A bit harsh, I know, but if you've read the book The Top five Regrets of The Dying by Bronnie Ware, you'll know that the number one reason given was “I wish I'd had the courage to live a life true to myself, not the life others expected of me.”  It's your areas of focus that will allow you to live a life true to yourself because by developing your areas of focus, you'll learn what is important to you and what is not.  And the second reason? I wish I hadn't worked so hard.  When you don't know what is important and what is not, you will work too hard. Everything becomes important, and that means you work long hours and at weekends, missing out on your children growing up and enjoying the best years of your life doing the things you want to do.  I'm pretty sure that's not how you want your life to work out.  So with all that said, let me hand you over to the Mystery Podcast Voice for this week's question.  This week's question comes from Julie. Julie asks, hi Carl, I hear you mention knowing what's important to you a lot, yet I really don't know what's important. I'm under pressure at work and I have two teenagers at home. I feel my life is being pushed and pulled by everyone but myself. What can I do to create some boundaries in my life?  Hi Julie, thank you for your question.  It's when we feel lost and out of sorts that our Areas of Focus can help to bring back some peace to our lives.  Our areas of focus are focused on our needs and wants. And because of that, people feel it's an indulgence to even consider spending time on developing them. That's particularly the case when we have a young family and we've allowed our work to dominate our lives.  The first book I ever read on time management and productivity was Hyrum Smith's Ten natural Laws and time and Life Management, and around the first quarter of that book is spent on developing what Hyrum Smith calls your governing values.  Your governing values are the values by which you live your life by. With these, we will all be different. For some, being a good mother or father will be their most important value, for others, it might be building a successful business. Now, when I read that book I was around eighteen or nineteen and that part of the book washed over me. I was young, I believed I was immortal and I could do anything I wanted to do. I didn't have time to think about my “governing values”.  Yet, with age, came wisdom and around my late twenties I began to see the importance of having a set of values to guide me.  That's when I gave myself a couple of weekends to write out my governing values. Funnily enough, as I look through my old Franklin Planners from that era, I can see that the values I wrote down then are not far away from how I define my Areas of Focus today.  it's these areas that give you a direction and a purpose. They help you with prioritising your days and weeks and give you a solid foundation on which to build your goals.  For example, I used to be a smoker. Throughout my twenties and thirties I's smoke around twenty cigarettes a day. I found it relaxing, a great way to step away from my work and to think. Yet, I knew that by continuing to smoke I was violating my area of health and fitness.  I was going to the gym and running, I was eating healthily, but i was destroying all that by continuing the smoke. As I got older, the pressure inside me to quit something I enjoyed doing grew stronger. it eventually reached a point where I had to quit.  Every time I reviewed my areas of focus, I had that niggling voice reminding me that the vision I had for my later life—being able to travel the world running marathons, exploring places like Mount Kilimanjaro and the Rocky Mountains would be just a pipe dream because I would be spending my later life in and out of hospital.  And so, I set the goal to quit smoking. Now for anyone who has gone through the process of quitting smoking, you'll know it's one of the toughest things to do. It took me two years to finally quit. Yet, the effort was worth it.  Quitting gave me a sense of accomplishment, a realisation that I could do anything if I put my mind to it and it was compatible with what I felt was important.  Yet without a set of principles—something your areas of focus will give you—things like stopping something that is slowly killing you or staying in a career that is draining you and leaving your feeling depressed and unhappy—will never occur to you. They will be placed on what Brian Tracey calls, “Someday Island”, a place where nothing happens because you're waiting for “someday”.  another illustration of this was when i joined a law firm. I had spent six years training to be a lawyer. I worked hard, to get my legal qualifications, yet when I began working in a law firm, I quickly realised I'd made a huge mistake.  I hated being stuck behind a desk eight or none hours a day.  Prior to working in an office, all my jobs had involved a lot of moving around. I began my career in hotel management, where I spent all day running around a large building dealing with all sorts of issues. I'd sometimes be on reception helping to check people out, then I's be in the restaurant serving lunch. It was fun, physically exhausting, yet incredibly fulfilling.  Then I went into car sales. And again, my days were largely spent running around a showroom and forecourt talking with customers.  Suddenly, I'm chained to a desk and within six months I'd gained 20 pounds in weight, I was unhappy, and felt trapped. It was as if I had been sent to open prison where I was expected to be in one place for eight to nine hours a day Monday to Friday. it was horrible.  So, I quit and came to Korea. a decision that turned out to be the best decision I've ever made. Yet, when i told my friends and family I was quitting the law firm and going to teach English in Korea, they thought I was mad. Why was I quitting a potentially lucrative career to go and do something I knew nothing about?  Yet, it was my areas of focus that told me what I needed to do. staying in that legal job violated my career and business area. I was trapped in an industry that held firm to a tried and tested career path. I didn't want that constraint. I wanted a lot more freedom to help people and perhaps change their lives for the better. Being a lawyer would never give me that freedom.  The benefit of having a set of established areas of focus is they give you a blueprint for the life you want to live. By writing them down, and reading through them every six months or so, you get the chance to realign yourself with the way you want to live your life.  Now, for those of you who have not looked at your areas of focus before, there are eight areas we all share. These are: Family and relationships, health and fitness, Finances, Business / career Lifestyle and life experiences Self development Spirituality life's purpose  Each one of those mean something to us. However, how we define them will be different of each of us, snd in what order of importance will change as we go through life.  For example, as you get older, your health and fitness and finances will likely move up the list and your career and business will drop down.  When or if you start a family, your family and relationships will rapidly climb the list.  You may even find that over time you redefine one or more of your areas. This is perfectly normal.  however, at their core, these areas define who you are and what's important to you.  This means, Julie, when it comes to juggling your career with your family, you will be able to see by how you prioritise your areas whether you should attend your daughter's netball finals or that important meeting at work.  If family and relationships is above your career, then it's an easy choice to make. However, if you have prioritised finances above family and relationships, you'll need to decide if the risk of missing out on a promotion, is worth it to see your daughter play in the netball finals.  The problem most of face is there are too many competing demands on our time. Time is fixed. We get twenty-four hours a day; that's it. The good news is, no matter what work you do, you always have control over how you spend those twenty-four hours.  I know many people will say they don't have control over their time. But you do. You can decide not to attend a meeting you've been invited to. You get to choose whether to tap the accept, decline or maybe button when it appears on your calendar.  Whether you accept a meeting request or not, will depend on what you prioritise.  Given a choice between a meeting with an important person on a Saturday evening or spending that time with my wife, I already know the answer. my wife will have priority. Family and relationships is much higher than my career/business area.  I can renegotiate the meeting with the important person. Saturday nights are my family's protected time. It's one night a week, and I won't sacrifice it for anything.  This also translates to my work week. My exercise time is 5:00 pm. At that time, I stop what I am doing and either head out for a run or go upstairs to the loft and lift weights. I never schedule meetings at 5 pm. That's my exercise time and right now, my health and fitness area is higher than my career/business area.  All this comes down to knowing what's your areas of focus mean to you and how you prioritise them. There we will all be different, but it's your areas of focus that will give you a blueprint for how you want to live your life, what is important to you and where you want to spend your time.  Not knowing what your areas of focus are will be like being Alice in Alice in Wonderland. you'll feel the need to go somewhere, but will have no idea where and then you will end up following someone else, and that someone else will not always have your best interests at heart.  I hope that has helped, Julie. My advice is to spend some time working on your areas of focus. Determine what's they mean to you and pull out any activities that you can do consistently and add them to your task manager or calendar. That way you will stay on course. And, if you find you are not happy with the direction you are going, redefine your areas and adjust course.  Thank you for your question and thank you to you too for listening. It just remains for me now to wish you all a very very productive week.   

Hey folks, Alex here, welcome back to ThursdAI! And folks, after the last week was the calm before the storm, "The storm came, y'all" – that's an understatement. This wasn't just a storm; it was an AI hurricane, a category 5 of announcements that left us all reeling (in the best way possible!). From being on the ground at Google I/O to live-watching Anthropic drop Claude 4 during our show, it's been an absolute whirlwind.This week was so packed, it felt like AI Christmas, with tech giants and open-source heroes alike showering us with gifts. We saw OpenAI play their classic pre-and-post-Google I/O chess game, Microsoft make some serious open-source moves, Google unleash an avalanche of updates, and Anthropic crash the party with Claude 4 Opus and Sonnet live stream in the middle of ThursdAI!So buckle up, because we're about to try and unpack this glorious chaos. As always, we're here to help you collectively know, learn, and stay up to date, so you don't have to. Let's dive in! (TL;DR and links in the end) Open Source LLMs Kicking Things OffEven with the titans battling, the open-source community dropped some serious heat this week. It wasn't the main headline grabber, but the releases were significant!Gemma 3n: Tiny But Mighty MatryoshkaFirst up, Google's Gemma 3n. This isn't just another small model; it's a "Nano-plus" preview, a 4-billion parameter MatFormer (Matryoshka Transformer – how cool is that name?) model designed for mobile-first multimodal applications. The really slick part? It has a nested 2-billion parameter sub-model that can run entirely on phones or Chromebooks.Yam was particularly excited about this one, pointing out the innovative "model inside another model" design. The idea is you can use half the model, not depth-wise, but throughout the layers, for a smaller footprint without sacrificing too much. It accepts interleaved text, image, audio, and video, supports ASR and speech translation, and even ships with RAG and function-calling libraries for edge apps. With a 128K token window and responsible AI features baked in, Gemma 3n is looking like a powerful tool for on-device AI. Google claims it beats prior 4B mobile models on MMLU-Lite and MMMU-Mini. It's an early preview in Google AI Studio, but it definitely flies on mobile devices.Mistral & AllHands Unleash Devstral 24BThen we got a collaboration from Mistral and AllHands: Devstral, a 24-billion parameter, state-of-the-art open model focused on code. We've been waiting for Mistral to drop some open-source goodness, and this one didn't disappoint.Nisten was super hyped, noting it beats o3-Mini on SWE-bench verified – a tough benchmark! He called it "the first proper vibe coder that you can run on a 3090," which is a big deal for coders who want local power and privacy. This is a fantastic development for the open-source coding community.The Pre-I/O Tremors: OpenAI & Microsoft Set the StageAs we predicted, OpenAI couldn't resist dropping some news right before Google I/O.OpenAI's Codex Returns as an AgentOpenAI launched Codex – yes, that Codex, but reborn as an asynchronous coding agent. This isn't just a CLI tool anymore; it connects to GitHub, does pull requests, fixes bugs, and navigates your codebase. It's powered by a new coding model fine-tuned for large codebases and was SOTA on SWE Agent when it dropped. Funnily, the model is also called Codex, this time, Codex-1. And this gives us a perfect opportunity to talk about the emerging categories I'm seeing among Code Generator agents and tools:* IDE-based (Cursor, Windsurf): Live pair programming in your editor* Vibe coding (Lovable, Bolt, v0): "Build me a UI" style tools for non-coders* CLI tools (Claude Code, Codex-cli): Terminal-based assistants* Async agents (Claude Code, Jules, Codex, GitHub Copilot agent, Devin): Work on your repos while you sleep, open pull requests for you to review, asyncCodex (this new one) falls into category number 4, and with today's release, Cursor seems to also strive to get to category number 4 with background processing. Microsoft BUILD: Open Source Copilot and Copilot Agent ModeThen came Microsoft Build, their huge developer conference, with a flurry of announcements.The biggest one for me? GitHub Copilot's front-end code is now open source! The VS Code editor part was already open, but the Copilot integration itself wasn't. This is a massive move, likely a direct answer to the insane valuations of VS Code clones like Cursor. Now, you can theoretically clone GitHub Copilot with VS Code and swing for the fences.GitHub Copilot also launched as an asynchronous coding assistant, very similar in function to OpenAI's Codex, allowing it to be assigned tasks and create/update PRs. This puts Copilot right into category 4 of code assistants, and with the native Github Integration, they may actually have a leg up in this race!And if that wasn't enough, Microsoft is adding MCP (Model Context Protocol) support directly into the Windows OS. The implications of having the world's biggest operating system natively support this agentic protocol are huge.Google I/O: An "Ultra" Event Indeed!Then came Tuesday, and Google I/O. I was there in the thick of it, and folks, it was an absolute barrage. Google is shipping. The theme could have been "Ultra" for many reasons, as we'll see.First off, the scale: Google reported a 49x increase in AI usage since last year's I/O, jumping from 9 trillion tokens processed to a mind-boggling 480 trillion tokens. That's a testament to their generous free tiers and the explosion of AI adoption.Gemini 2.5 Pro & Flash: #1 and #2 LLMs on ArenaGemini 2.5 Flash got an update and is now #2 on the LMArena leaderboard (with Gemini 2.5 Pro still holding #1). Both Pro and Flash gained some serious new capabilities:* Deep Think mode: This enhanced reasoning mode is pushing Gemini's scores to new heights, hitting 84% on MMMU and topping LiveCodeBench. It's about giving the model more "time" to work through complex problems.* Native Audio I/O: We're talking real-time TTS in 24 languages with two voices, and affective dialogue capabilities. This is the advanced voice mode we've been waiting for, now built-in.* Project Mariner: Computer-use actions are being exposed via the Gemini API & Vertex AI for RPA partners. This started as a Chrome extension to control your browser and now seems to be a cloud-based API, allowing Gemini to use the web, not just browse it. This feels like Google teaching its AI to interact with the JavaScript-heavy web, much like they taught their crawlers years ago.* Thought Summaries: Okay, here's one update I'm not a fan of. They've switched from raw thinking traces to "thought summaries" in the API. We want the actual traces! That's how we learn and debug.* Thinking Budgets: Previously a Flash-only feature, token ceilings for controlling latency/cost now extend to Pro.* Flash Upgrade: 20-30% fewer tokens, better reasoning/multimodal scores, and GA in early June.Gemini Diffusion: Speed Demon for Code and MathThis one got Yam Peleg incredibly excited. Gemini Diffusion is a new approach, different from transformers, for super-speed editing of code and math tasks. We saw demos hitting 2000 tokens per second! While there might be limitations at longer contexts, its speed and infilling capabilities are seriously impressive for a research preview. This is the first diffusion model for text we've seen from the frontier labs, and it looks sick. Funny note, they had to slow down the demo video to actually show the diffusion process, because at 2000t/s - apps appear as though out of thin air!The "Ultra" Tier and Jules, Google's Coding AgentRemember the "Ultra event" jokes? Well, Google announced a Gemini Ultra tier for $250/month. This tops OpenAI's Pro plan and includes DeepThink access, a generous amount of VEO3 generation, YouTube Premium, and a whopping 30TB of storage. It feels geared towards creators and developers.And speaking of developers, Google launched Jules (jules.google)! This is their asynchronous coding assistant (Category 4!). Like Codex and GitHub Copilot Agent, it connects to your GitHub, opens PRs, fixes bugs, and more. The big differentiator? It's currently free, which might make it the default for many. Another powerful agent joins the fray!AI Mode in Search: GA and EnhancedAI Mode in Google Search, which we've discussed on the show before with Robby Stein, is now in General Availability in the US. This is Google's answer to Perplexity and chat-based search.But they didn't stop there:* Personalization: AI Mode can now connect to your Gmail and Docs (if you opt-in) for more personalized results.* Deep Search: While AI Mode is fast, Deep Search offers more comprehensive research capabilities, digging through hundreds of sources, similar to other "deep research" tools. This will eventually be integrated, allowing you to escalate an AI Mode query for a deeper dive.* Project Mariner Integration: AI Mode will be able to click into websites, check availability for tickets, etc., bridging the gap to an "agentic web."I've had a chat with Robby during I/O and you can listen to that interview at the end of the podcast.Veo3: The Undisputed Star of Google I/OFor me, and many others I spoke to, Veo3 was the highlight. This is Google's flagship video generation model, and it's on another level. (the video above, including sounds is completely one shot generated from VEO3, no processing or editing)* Realism and Physics: The visual quality and understanding of physics are astounding.* Natively Multimodal: This is huge. Veo3 generates native audio, including coherent speech, conversations, and sound effects, all synced perfectly. It can even generate text within videos.* Coherent Characters: Characters remain consistent across scenes and have situational awareness, who speaks when, where characters look.* Image Upload & Reference Ability: While image upload was closed for the demo, it has reference capabilities.* Flow: An editor for video creation using Veo3 and Imagen4 which also launched, allowing for stiching and continuous creation.I got access and created videos where Veo3 generated a comedian telling jokes (and the jokes were decent!), characters speaking with specific accents (Indian, Russian – and they nailed it!), and lip-syncing that was flawless. The situational awareness, the laugh tracks kicking in at the right moment... it's beyond just video generation. This feels like a world simulator. It blew through the uncanny valley for me. More on Veo3 later, because it deserves its own spotlight.Imagen4, Virtual Try-On, and XR Glasses* Imagen4: Google's image generation model also got an upgrade, with extra textual ability.* Virtual Try-On: In Google Shopping, you can now virtually try on clothes. I tried it; it's pretty cool and models different body types well.* XR AI Glasses from Google: Perhaps the coolest, but most futuristic, announcement. AI-powered glasses with an actual screen, memory, and Gemini built-in. You can talk to it, it remembers things for you, and interacts with your environment. This is agentic AI in a very tangible form.Big Company LLMs + APIs: The Beat Goes OnThe news didn't stop with Google.OpenAI (acqui)Hires Jony Ive, Launches "IO" for HardwareThe day after I/O, Sam Altman confirmed that Jony Ive, the legendary designer behind Apple's iconic products, is joining OpenAI. He and his company, LoveFrom, have jointly created a new company called "IO" (yes, IO, just like the conference) which is joining OpenAI in a stock deal reportedly worth $6.5 billion. They're working on a hardware device, unannounced for now, but expected next year. This is a massive statement of intent from OpenAI in the hardware space.Legendary iPhone analyst Ming-Chi Kuo shed some light on the possible device, it won't have a screen, as Jony wants to "wean people off screens"... funny right? They are targeting 2027 for mass production, which is really interesting as 2027 is when most big companies expect AGI to be here. "The current prototype is slightly larger than AI Pin, with a form factor comparable to iPod Shuffle, with one intended use cases is to wear it around your neck, with microphones and cameras for environmental detection" LMArena Raises $100M Seed from a16zThis one raised some eyebrows. LMArena, the go-to place for vibe-checking LLMs, raised a $100 million seed round from Andreessen Horowitz. That's a huge number for a seed, reminiscent of Stability AI's early funding. It also brings up questions about how a VC-backed startup maintains impartiality as a model evaluation platform. Interesting times ahead for leaderboards, how they intent to make 100x that amount to return to investors. Very curious.

The biggest stars of the post-Dhoni era call time on their India Test careers. Nitin, Tony, Chops, PDP and Bisi gather to discuss what may have happened behind the scenes. We rightly conclude that Donald Trump is responsible for their retirements. We also spend about 100 minutes on the legacy of Virat, and 2 minutes on Rohit. Funnily, in an episode about Kohli and Rohit, the jokes are still about Ashwin.

This episode begins with Jemma trying to find things to cheer Marina up with. Funnily enough, learning that Gove is getting a peerage doesn't do it, but the song Dame Andrea Jenkins has chosen to promote her bid to be Mayor nearly does. Then we're off to Scunthorpe where Labour have been trying to ensure that the furnaces don't go out for once and for all on British Steel. China have decided they aren't interested in it anymore, which is a huge reason to be furious with Boris Johnson (another one) because he sold it to them. With thousands of jobs at stake, Marina and Jemma wonder what might or might not happen. Then to the States, where Trump has been sitting down with a kindred spirit, the President of El Salvador, Bukele who is he paying to take people he wishes to deport and to house them in his Gulag like prisons. Hear the incredible moment Trump was caught on mic saying he would like him to take 'homegrowns' too. If only that was the only grim piece of news to come out of his adminstration but sadly......cut to, the SAVE act. Marina gives the lowdown on a piece of legislation which is almost akin to Handmaids Tale and yet might result in a surprising plot twist. Lots of underrated tweets and a wonderful pudding finish off the ep.Thank you for sharing and do tweet us @MarinaPurkiss @jemmaforte @TheTrawlPodcastPatreonhttps://patreon.com/TheTrawlPodcastYoutubehttps://www.youtube.com/@TheTrawlTwitterhttps://twitter.com/TheTrawlPodcastBlueSkyhttps://bsky.app/profile/thetrawl.bsky.socialCreated and Produced by Jemma Forte & Marina PurkissEdited by Max Carrey

I am conflicted. In the age of tariffs and free trade and making stuff that the world wants, how is it a Government can then argue that you have to buy wool? If you are redecorating, or building, or refurbishing a major chunk of your consideration will be around cost. Can wool outprice what might be your desire for the cheapest product going? No, it can't. Can wool mount an argument that over time it pays its way? Possibly. Then we come to the patriotic side. Should we support things that we are good at? I think yes. If you are a regular, you will know no one loves wool more than me. I'd pay anything to support wool because I'm a natural fibre geek. Polyester should be a crime and banned. Funnily enough, I read a report yesterday about the return of fake fur. Fake fur is now so good you can't tell the difference, but it is made out of petrochemicals. So in banning the real thing to save the animals, we have simply set about trashing the Earth some more to quell the demand for fur that never went away. The demand for cheap flooring is driven solely by price. Wool, for what it lacks in price, makes up for in vibe. It's amazing in both carpets and jerseys. But is the Government picking winners or is the Government artificially backing one over another, and if they are in that business, where is the line? Why is it okay to make you buy wool, but at the same time allow any number of new building products into the market to cheapen the price of building a house? Why aren't they making you buy GIB? It's price one day and quality the next. There is an inconsistency in this. The wool fan in me says go for it. Wool needs and deserves help. It's been badly treated and if this programme makes a difference, then we can all feel good about it. But the purist in me says, for a free trader, we favour quality and wool is quality. But the reason we don't make a lot of stuff is because we can't make it at a price we want to buy it at, and that is smart, sensible business. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Outro Track of the DayFor reasons that should become clear…https://open.spotify.com/track/5PGYWv9Xp4IraLSDs8h1bY?si=1b23870ffdad4629 Ben Cooke, Earth Editor at The Times and returning champion guest on Wicked Problems, walks us through why his news outlet just devoted a whole series to climate adaptation.Over the past 18 months, a big thesis of this project is that a certain amount of climate risk and climate effects are already happening. Very few people are willing to talk about it publicly, which I think has put all of us at a huge disadvantage.Because talking about adaptation takes you from some pretty abstract notions about mitigating emissions, CO2 levels and average global temperatures and becomes a really local thing. What's gonna happen in my town? What should we done about it? Who's gonna pay for that?Seeing the series of reporting on adaptation in the UK's paper of record, particularly with the scene-setter from Science Editor Ben Spencer and cobylined with Anna Dowell, to me says we've really hit a big moment.Some other pieces in the series that we discuss:https://www.thetimes.com/uk/environment/article/solar-panels-farmland-food-security-times-earth-wdb6dlhk8https://www.thetimes.com/uk/environment/article/reforestation-flood-defence-farmers-times-earth-8wgzqjdg7https://www.thetimes.com/article/f6181881-35b2-4333-97ae-2396ca835727Yeah But What Can I Do?Funnily enough, as we discussed in last episode with Ivo Mensch of the Climate Majority Project's Forum, you might stop doomscrolling and hang out in meatspace with other people who see now for what it is but are not queuing up to throw soup at plexiglass protectors of famous Van Gogh paintings.Talking to your neighbours about how to save each other in a natural catastrophe far more likely because of climate change that is here now is a very different chat from ‘you should go vegan to save some future version of the sky'.Tickets are still on sale for their event 15-16th March at Limehouse Town Hall in London.Spam is BadA few people have said we're pushing you to many things that aren't relevant. Some of you have nixed our emails. That happens with a fast-growing audience but we care what you think. We want to provide you things in which you find value.Shorter eps? No emails about eps bar a once-a-week thing? Different content streams for our themes, because to be fair we cover a lot of waterfront from politics to tech to law to finance to culture to science. We value your time and don't want to waste it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

"I think we got tagged early on as a hype brewery. We're not afraid to say that we were."In the words of Willie Nelson, we're on the road again for this episode – or at least we were – as our chat with James McCall and Carla Naismith of Shapeshifter Brewing is the last of the shows we recorded in Adelaide at the tail end of 2024.James founded the brewery with Kevin Mulcahy after the pair met on a brewing course run by SA legend Stephen Nelsen. They launched their first beers before opening a brewery and quickly made a name for themselves on the back of some banging oat cream IPAs.These days they brew and welcome punters to their brewpub home in Findon – part of a brewery circuit in Adelaide's west – and continue to experiment with new styles, techniques, and ingredients, with a particular fondness for hops.As well as delving into their stories and the evolution of Shapeshifter, we discuss some of the issues still impacting many in the beer and hospitality negatively, as well as steps that can be taken to make it a more inclusive and welcoming industry.Prior to the main interview, Will and James discuss the week's news, including Sydney Brewery's acquisition of Rocks Brewing from liquidators, the inspiring tale of the mates behind Auslan Beers, and the continuing mainstream media coverage of the unfair excise tax system and its impact on brewers, venues, retailers and drinkers alike.Funnily enough, it was podcast regular Craig Williams – back here with Hendo for some more Rockstar Brewer Academy advice – who landed on the TV news and Sunrise off the back of a viral video he shot about beer's “fifth ingredient” with his Blackflag Brewing hat on.Don't forget to get your nominations in for the Bluestone Yeast Brewery of the Month and, if you're in Sydney on February 26, James is hosting an Ale Trail Blind Tasting Face-Off at Hopsters. Just ten tickets left when this show was uploaded – ticket link below.Start of segments: 10:12 – James & Carla Part 1 32:13 – Rockstar Brewer Academy 38:21 – James & Carla Part 2Relevant links: Shapeshifter Brewing Brew & A: Carla Naismith Sydney Brewery Take Over Rocks Auslan Beers Beer Tax on TV Ale Trail Blind Tasting Bluestone Yeast Brewery of the Month The High Country Hop Rockstar Brewer Academy FOBOHTo find out more about supporting the show or otherwise partnering with The Crafty Pint, contact craig@craftypint.com.

Desi dating apps are vying for parental approval. And their strategy seems to be working.A couple months ago, Agrima Srivastava, a 29-year-old media professional from Lucknow, had an awkward conversation with her mother. She wanted to know if Agrima had ever heard of Indian dating apps, Aisle and Better Half.That was the first time Agrima had an open conversation with her mother about her love life. She told her that she was on dating apps, but homegrown ones like Aisle and Better half, were "just too serious". Funnily enough, the very reason Agrima was hesitant to get on an Indian dating app is why her mom approved of it.And Agrima's mom isn't alone. Many Indian dating apps have positioned themselves as the perfect stop gap between casual dating and marriage. It allows people the autonomy to choose their own partner without their parents getting involved, while also connecting them with a pool of potential partners from similar communities and upbringings. It's like parent-approved dating.How do they work? And do Indian dating app users need them?Tune in to find out.Daybreak is produced from the newsroom of The Ken, India's first subscriber-only business news platform. Subscribe for more exclusive, deeply-reported, and analytical business stories.

Al and Kev talk about Hello Kitty Island Adventure Timings 00:00:00: Theme Tune 00:00:30: Intro 00:01:30: What Have We Been Up To 00:22:51: Game News 00:36:43: Hello Kitty Island Adventure 01:16:05: Outro Links Ratopia 1.0 Grimoire Groves Release Sugardew Island Release The Ranchers Police District My Time at Sandrock Chibi Figurines Contact Al on Mastodon: https://mastodon.scot/@TheScotBot Email Us: https://harvestseason.club/contact/ Transcript (0:00:30) Al: Hello, farmers, and welcome to another episode of the harvest season. (0:00:35) Al: My name is Al. (0:00:37) Kev: My name is Kevin, here with the vengeance. (0:00:40) Al: You sounded a little bit unsure about your name there. (0:00:42) Al: And we’re here today to talk about Cosco Games. (0:00:46) Kev: Woo! (0:00:48) Kev: I can’t get the wolf pack thing out of my head now. (0:00:51) Kev: They’re listening to last two weeks. (0:00:56) Al: This episode, we are going to talk about Hello Kitty Island. (0:01:00) Al: Adventure. Oh, but you’ve already talked about that. I hear you say, “Well, (0:01:05) Al: we’re going for the second harvest of it, because it has finally come out on Steam and Switch.” (0:01:08) Kev: Second Harvest. (0:01:14) Kev: Switch and other things, yes. (0:01:17) Al: You can tell what Kevin cares about. So, we’re going to talk about that. (0:01:19) Kev: Yeah, haha, yeah. (0:01:24) Kev: I don’t have a Steam Deck, so, well. (0:01:26) Al: Fair. Before that, we have some news. (0:01:31) Al: But first of all, Kevin, what have you been up to? (0:01:33) Kev: Oh, hello everyone. I have been up to work. I barely have, it’s been a lot done working. (0:01:42) Kev: I’m in one of those periods where I’m doing a lot of daily sort of stuff, comfort games. (0:01:51) Kev: And then the Zone Zero continues to be good. Marvel Snap, I’m playing Marvel Snap right now. (0:01:56) Kev: I know you’re not, I like to follow the channel, I know you’re not. That’s fine. (0:01:58) Al: I am not. No, no. I took a break from it because it was basically consuming me. (0:02:03) Kev: It’s consumed me. But I think it’s in a decent place, so I’m okay being consumed by Marvel Snap. (0:02:12) Kev: We got the new season based stuff, the Brave New World, the Red Hulk, and the new Captain America, all that good stuff. (0:02:21) Kev: Um… I… (0:02:22) Al: I have been occasionally looking at the, um, the new cards and stuff like that, but I haven’t (0:02:30) Al: looked at the new, the new season stuff. Is there anything that excites you? (0:02:34) Kev: Yeah, they’re interesting. Funnily enough, the one that excites me most is not related to the (0:02:44) Kev: movie. It’s a character called Diamondback. Diamondback is a type of rattlesnake, if you’re (0:02:50) Kev: not familiar. She’s part of a group called the Serpent Society. I can’t remember exactly what, (0:02:56) Kev: but she’s got one of those effects that lowers everyone else’s power on your head. (0:03:04) Kev: I think it doubles the amount lowered or something like that, so I’m excited by that. (0:03:10) Kev: Otherwise, the other stuff’s fine. None of it’s crazy game breaking. I’m more excited by (0:03:15) Al: Oh, is next month is it Daredevil stuff? No. Okay. (0:03:16) Kev: some stuff in the data points for next month, but yeah, the season’s okay. Next month is going to (0:03:24) Kev: be, oh, that’d be a good one, but no. They’re going to get the name of it. Basically, like ancient (0:03:34) Kev: like BC or whatever, Avengers BC, something like that. I don’t remember. Yeah, they have (0:03:40) Kev: some interesting effects. Otherwise, Marvel Snap is good. I can see my visual customizations and (0:03:53) Kev: stuff all during the whole match, not at just the beginning. (0:03:53) Al: All right, all right, all right, calm down, calm down. You just want to mock the Pokemon (0:04:04) Kev: That’s it. (0:04:04) Al: fans again. (0:04:06) Kev: Look, I had no problem with Pocket. (0:04:09) Kev: They’re the ones who are kind of shooting themselves (0:04:13) Kev: in the foot here. (0:04:14) Al: Oh, yeah, we don’t need to we talked about that so many times. I don’t think we need to talk about it again. (0:04:20) Kev: Yeah, I know. (0:04:21) Kev: I just– I feel bad for you guys, honestly. (0:04:25) Kev: But yeah, Marvel snaps. (0:04:26) Al: I mean, I don’t feel bad for me. I don’t particularly care because I’m just collecting, right? Yeah, I do some battles, but my main point is collecting, and that is what I’m doing, whereas with Marvel Snap, it’s much more a battle-focused game because there are fewer cards. (0:04:27) Kev: Good stuff. (0:04:40) Kev: Yeah, yeah, you know what, you’re right. If you’re just collecting pocket is still probably all right. Well, I’d say that but the trading I guess is cool as collecting related so (0:04:46) Al: It’s great. (0:04:52) Al: Look, it’s less bad than it was, but it’s still bad. (0:04:59) Kev: Oh, I get you I (0:05:02) Al: I like I will say I like how it’s actually implemented. (0:05:05) Al: The currencies are stupid. (0:05:06) Al: The restrictions are stupid, but I like the feature. (0:05:08) Kev: Yeah (0:05:08) Al: How is actually implemented? (0:05:10) Kev: Okay, well, there you go. I’m trying to clear that bar (0:05:17) Kev: But yeah, let’s see other than that (0:05:20) Kev: obviously (0:05:21) Kev: Super Mario Odyssey we were playing over that at triple-r. So I’ve been playing some of that too. That’s good stuff (0:05:29) Kev: What do I have to say? It’s super hard to see it’s a good game (0:05:34) Kev: And (0:05:35) Kev: Honestly this week it’s it’s largely been Hello Kitty because I’ve been trying to climb that in cuz (0:05:41) Kev: We did not have a lot of time (0:05:42) Kev: It was like what a week before recording roughly a little more than a week when it came out (0:05:46) Kev: So I got it and I’m rushing to get it to get through it (0:05:52) Kev: But yeah, and so you’ll hear my thoughts later. What about you? Well, what’s going on over there? (0:05:57) Al: I have, I mean, I wasn’t planning on talking about it, but yeah, I’ve been playing pocket (0:06:02) Al: as usual, got the new set, got most of the new set. So I’m continuing for another few (0:06:07) Al: weeks of getting no cards most days. (0:06:10) Kev: I will say I will say the Cynthia accessories packs that came out were (0:06:17) Kev: pretty good that was good stuff in fact it’s why don’t they make that real like (0:06:18) Al: - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. (0:06:25) Al: I will only buy the stuff that is bundled with gold. (0:06:30) Al: I’m not gonna spend gold on those things (0:06:32) Al: because the problem there is like, (0:06:34) Al: I could use those gold cards (0:06:36) Al: rather than the accessories, right? (0:06:38) Kev: Mmm, that’s an excellent. (0:06:38) Al: That’s the problem. (0:06:39) Al: Whereas I bought both of the ones, (0:06:41) Al: so there was one with the first set (0:06:44) Al: and there’s one with the second set, (0:06:45) Al: which is like you buy it, and you get gold and cosmes. (0:06:49) Al: It’s like I will do that, because then I’m getting the gold as well. (0:06:52) Al: But yeah, I am definitely my fault (0:06:57) Al: and my problem that I’m getting the set so quickly, (0:07:02) Al: because what I’m doing, obviously, is I’m saving up my glasses (0:07:06) Al: and I’m spending some gold and I’m opening like 50 packs in the first couple of days. (0:07:11) Al: So obviously, I’m going to get most of the set when I do that. (0:07:14) Al: But it makes for a fun couple of days, at least. (0:07:19) Al: What else am I doing? (0:07:20) Al: I am continuing to play Harvest Moon Home, Sweet Home. (0:07:23) Al: So that is a thing that I’m still continuing. (0:07:26) Kev: Okay, okay. (0:07:28) Al: I might have more to say about that in a future episode, we’ll see. (0:07:32) Kev: I’m so, you know, I’m impressed you’re still playing I will say that that alone is a testament to the quality of the game (0:07:40) Kev: well relative to other (0:07:42) Kev: Natsume titles. (0:07:42) Al: Yeah, yeah. It’s yeah, okay, I’m not gonna say anything about it just now, but yeah, I’m I feel like I’m at I am actively enjoying myself. I think that’s as far as I’ll go at this point. I don’t think so. I think it’s just that the game gets better as you play it more, right? Because you unlock better tools and stuff and that makes some of the annoyances become less annoying, you know. (0:07:55) Kev: Is it Stockholm Syndrome? (0:08:10) Kev: Okay, that’s that is interesting (0:08:13) Al: » The other thing I’m playing just now is Sugardew Island because we’ll talk about that in the news. (0:08:18) Kev: Ah (0:08:19) Kev: You’re going for it. Oh, you need to what you need to get re-legend on there go for the hat trick (0:08:24) Al: But let’s talk about that in the news, but yeah, that is another thing I’ve been playing (0:08:28) Al: this week. (0:08:30) Al: And not a game, but Kevin, I have watched The Gifted. (0:08:34) Al: Have you ever seen The Gifted? (0:08:35) Kev: they gifted on no what is (0:08:37) Al: So this was one of the like 2017, 2018, 2019 X-Men series. (0:08:46) Kev: oh man oh this is one of those weird ones that okay does it do they even oh it has an x over the (0:08:54) Kev: I okay so they are using the x but oh this isn’t the new mutants this is okay okay (0:08:59) Al: No, no, no. So they had Legion and they had the Gifted. They were both around the same (0:09:06) Al: sort of time and Legion was obviously about Legion. And so that was very weird because, (0:09:12) Al: well, his powers are weird and his not powers are also weird. So that was definitely a weird (0:09:20) Al: show to watch, but I really liked that. The Gifted is much more kind of standard, I guess. (0:09:30) Al: The Arrowverse sort of stuff, but obviously Marvel, X-Men. And it’s much more like a group (0:09:33) Kev: Okay, ah, okay (0:09:38) Al: of mutants. It’s a group of mutants fighting against humans who are trying to kill them (0:09:45) Al: and the government is trying to kill them and blah, blah, blah, blah. And the funny (0:09:52) Al: thing about it is, it is probably the thing I’ve seen that has the most references to (0:09:57) Al: the X-Men without having a single X-Men. (0:09:59) Al: It feels like every episode they mention the X-Men. (0:10:05) Al: The starting point behind the series is the X-Men disappeared a few years ago. (0:10:11) Al: And then there was a horrible disaster in DC, (0:10:16) Al: where some unidentified mutant has some unidentified accident (0:10:22) Al: that means there’s basically a massive explosion and it kills a bunch of people. (0:10:26) Al: and so since then they set up this new (0:10:29) Al: government task force called Sentinel Services, of course, they have to use the name Sentinel. (0:10:34) Kev: Of course (0:10:36) Al: And Trask is mentioned, you know, the usual blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. (0:10:37) Kev: Do you get it do you get it out? (0:10:43) Al: And they’re set up to like, they start off by being like, oh, we are containing criminal (0:10:51) Al: mutants. But of course, it never stops at that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know (0:10:52) Kev: uh-huh (0:10:55) Kev: what (0:10:57) Al: exactly where that loops, right? (0:10:59) Al: So which by the by the way, it feels very painful watching this in 2025, just going (0:10:59) Kev: what (0:11:00) Kev: oh boy do I I (0:11:03) Kev: I see that (0:11:04) Kev: for IRL (0:11:10) Al: to just going to put that out there, you know, with the talk of like, you know, camps to (0:11:11) Kev: Ugh. (0:11:13) Kev: Ugh. (0:11:15) Kev: Ugh. (0:11:17) Kev: Ugh. (0:11:18) Al: put them in and, you know, let’s say, I kind of wish I’d watched it last year rather than (0:11:19) Kev: Aww, sick. (0:11:24) Al: this year, but… (0:11:25) Kev: This sounds like a fun segment. (0:11:28) Kev: I will describe the thing. (0:11:29) Al: So, the kind of main characters are, I don’t know if you’ve, oh, who are they called? (0:11:30) Kev: Is this a scene from “The Gifted”? (0:11:32) Kev: Or Trump’s first two weeks in office? (0:11:35) Kev: It would be both! (0:11:48) Al: Because I had not heard of them before, the Strucker Twins, that’s what it is. Do you know (0:11:53) Al: the Strucker Twins? (0:11:54) Kev: Okay, so I pulled up the wiki cuz I’m curious (0:11:57) Kev: This no, and I’m curious because is that any relation to Baron Von Strucker from Hydra? (0:11:59) Al: So, yes, kind of. So, what I’ll say is, in the comics, yes, but in the show, not really. (0:12:12) Kev: Okay, sure, okay (0:12:14) Al: So as far as I can see, in the comics, there are the Strucker Twins who are children of (0:12:24) Kev: - Yeah, I know the stroke of trains, twins. (0:12:24) Al: - Baron struck her. (0:12:25) Kev: I love Wanda and Pietro. (0:12:29) Al: - Yeah, well, yeah, there is a lot of similarities (0:12:32) Al: between these things. (0:12:33) Al: They are never mentioned, (0:12:36) Al: like Baron struck her is never mentioned in the series. (0:12:41) Al: So they could still be, (0:12:42) Kev: That’s good stuff (0:12:42) Al: so it’s not focusing on the two twins (0:12:46) Al: that are in the comics. (0:12:47) Al: It’s like they are great grandchildren (0:12:48) Kev: Yeah (0:12:52) Al: who are not twins either. (0:12:54) Al: They’re just brother and sister a few years apart, (0:12:56) Al: but they have the same powers (0:12:58) Al: as. (0:13:00) Al: The struggle twins did and there’s a whole thing around like their father was working for Sentinel Services and (0:13:10) Al: but it turns out he was actually secretly a mutant. He just didn’t know it because his father had cured the X gene in him blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like lots of complicated things around that. (0:13:23) Al: It was fine. I enjoyed it. It wasn’t bad by any stretch of the imagination. (0:13:29) Al: But it wasn’t like I think Legion was a very good show and this was a fine show. It was fine. I enjoyed it. I’m glad I watched it. I’m a little bit annoyed because they cancelled it after season two but season two ended on a cliffhanger. (0:13:34) Kev: Okay, ah. (0:13:43) Kev: Oh, sick! That’s the best! (0:13:46) Al: And they did have a lot of different mutants with a lot of different powers, some of which you would recognize like they had Polaris who’s probably like the I guess the most well known one they had in the series. (0:13:56) Al: and they never mention my… (0:13:56) Kev: how crazy (0:13:59) Al: But. So they it’s very clear that they’re talking about him, but they never use his name, right? (0:14:00) Kev: I was about to say how crazy I imagine they didn’t and how crazy it is that we (0:14:04) Kev: got polaris but not (0:14:12) Al: So she constantly talks about her birth father and they talk about how, oh, she is the like, you know, (0:14:13) Kev: Right, right? (0:14:18) Al: she’s mutant royalty and all these things. (0:14:21) Al: Like, it’s so clear. (0:14:22) Al: It’s just like, did you not have the rights to the name? (0:14:26) Al: Like, that’s basically what it feels like, right? (0:14:27) Kev: Ohh, that’s great! I love that. (0:14:29) Al: Just say the name. Oh, my word. (0:14:31) Al: Everybody knows who you’re talking about. (0:14:36) Kev: Ohh, that’s so good. (0:14:39) Al: So, yeah, it’s I enjoyed it. (0:14:41) Al: It was fun. (0:14:43) Al: Yeah, I’ve kind of now I’ve not gone back to like the kind of like 90s and previous Marvel live action shows, but like everything post millennium. (0:14:56) Al: I’ve I’ve now watched all of them. (0:14:56) Kev: why not oh oh oh I thought you’re your 10 on it oh sure (0:14:59) Al: I’ve just not got there yet. (0:15:00) Al: Like, I’m obviously going to watch, you know, I’m obviously going. (0:15:04) Al: No, I just like you can’t watch everything all at the same time, right? (0:15:07) Al: You just have to get things slowly. (0:15:09) Al: So, like, obviously, I’m going to watch, you know, the Incredible Hulk. (0:15:12) Al: Lou Ferrigno’s Incredible Hulk. (0:15:14) Al: And I’ll see what I’ll think if there’s any others I want to watch. (0:15:17) Al: But like I’ve watched all the big live action Marvel ones, except for that Hulk show, I think. (0:15:26) Kev: Did you watch all of Agents of S.H.I.E.L.? (0:15:30) Al: Who knows if I’ll end up watching the like was it the 90s? (0:15:33) Al: There was a 90s Captain America, I think, and stuff like that. (0:15:36) Al: Who knows if I’ll get to watch them or not. (0:15:37) Kev: - Yeah. (0:15:39) Al: But yeah, that’s fun. (0:15:41) Al: I might go. (0:15:42) Al: I’ll probably watch a bunch of animated stuff first. (0:15:48) Kev: Yeah, you’re probably better off and watch that Iron Man with the mullet (0:15:48) Al: But I think I might go into. (0:15:53) Al: Well, I probably will end up going with some DC stuff first, right? (0:15:59) Al: 90s animated Batman and stuff like that. (0:16:02) Kev: wait have you never seen or wow yeah yeah of course right like i (0:16:03) Al: I haven’t. (0:16:05) Al: I mean, I’ve seen clips here and there, but I’ve not seen full episodes. (0:16:09) Al: Yeah. (0:16:09) Kev: assume you’ve seen but wow oh man you’re in a tree forget all (0:16:14) Kev: everything else like you’ve ever listed wow (0:16:16) Al: So I’ve got that to watch. (0:16:17) Kev: batman (0:16:18) Al: And I think there’s one really good Justice League one, (0:16:21) Al: I think, isn’t there, that people always talk about. (0:16:23) Kev: yes so yeah so that’s the dcau the dc animated universe that started off with (0:16:26) Al: Yeah. (0:16:28) Kev: the 90s batman and they just kind of went off there (0:16:30) Al: Yeah. (0:16:32) Kev: because it’s all in the same cannon (0:16:32) Al: Yeah, I’ve got a list from our mutual friend, Alex. (0:16:38) Al: He sent me a spreadsheet with basically all of the stuff (0:16:42) Al: that he cares about, and like a column that says, (0:16:45) Al: whether this is a must watch. (0:16:47) Al: Should watch or you can skip it sort of thing. (0:16:50) Al: So I will probably start watching those. (0:16:53) Kev: Oh, man, I’m excited for you. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts. (0:16:56) Al: Well, I was surprised with how few episodes there are (0:17:00) Al: in the original Batman, the animated series from the 90s. (0:17:03) Al: Like there aren’t actually that many. (0:17:03) Kev: Yeah, it’s well, are you counting? (0:17:05) Al: 85 episodes. (0:17:06) Al: It’s four seasons. (0:17:09) Al: Well, okay. (0:17:10) Al: Oh, yes, I remember this one. (0:17:11) Al: This was weird because it’s like listed in my app, my TV tracking app. (0:17:15) Al: season one has six (0:17:16) Al: like 60 episodes. Two and three have 10 each and then four has five. So it looks (0:17:22) Al: like they got really confused as to what seasons were. (0:17:26) Kev: That’s, that is very odd. (0:17:29) Al: It’s one of those ones that’s going to be super fun to try and watch everything because (0:17:33) Al: they’re in weird orders and they can’t decide what like there’ll be three specific episodes (0:17:39) Al: that are only on one random service. It’s like I’ve been trying to watch for a couple (0:17:44) Al: For years now, I’ve been trying to finish watching. (0:17:46) Al: So I’ve done all of seasons one to five, except three specific episodes from season (0:17:48) Kev: Ha ha ha, good luck with that! (0:17:57) Al: five. No, they’re not the last three episodes. They’re episodes 51 and 52 of 54. And I’ve (0:18:06) Al: also watched episode 14 of season six. Why? Who knows? (0:18:14) Al: So Netflix had seasoned. (0:18:16) Al: It’s like there are some episodes of each of those seasons on some services but like (0:18:30) Kev: Uh, probably I don’t know that thing’s eternal. It is wild to think. (0:18:40) Al: five episodes of season six or on one random service and then there’s like two episodes (0:18:45) Al: of Season 8, and then (0:18:47) Al: like 20 episodes of Season 7, and I know it doesn’t matter, I don’t need to watch this show in order, because this is the least, the show where like continuity matters the least, right? Because everything, it’s like the Simpsons, right? There’s very few things that actually change, right? So it doesn’t matter. But some small things matter, right? Like there was an arc of like five episodes where they had a new character. And if you randomly watched the third episode of that, you’d be like, who is this? (0:18:58) Kev: Oh, yeah. (0:19:16) Al: Random character, why are they here? But it doesn’t happen very often. And so it’s hard to predict. That’s the problem. (0:19:18) Kev: that is true (0:19:20) Kev: yeah (0:19:22) Kev: yeah you’re right (0:19:24) Kev: oh that’s, that’s incredible (0:19:24) Al: I’m (0:19:26) Kev: good times, good times (0:19:28) Kev: um (0:19:30) Kev: oh man, I’m, I’m (0:19:32) Kev: like, I think I’m honestly way (0:19:34) Kev: more excited for uh (0:19:36) Kev: uh you to go through the DC stuff (0:19:38) Kev: stuff cause the plot is so (0:19:40) Kev: higher in general, um on the small (0:19:40) Al: Yeah, I think I’ve watched all of the actually good Marvel animated stuff. (0:19:42) Kev: screen (0:19:46) Kev: Wait, did you watch our spider? (0:19:46) Al: I’ve watched… I have not, no. Is that one I need to watch? (0:19:48) Kev: Do you watch these terrors? (0:19:52) Kev: You didn’t watch? Oh my goodness! (0:19:54) Kev: Yes! (0:19:54) Al: Calm down. It’s so easy not to watch things. So which was this one? (0:19:58) Al: So Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, you say it’s called. Is that all it’s called? (0:20:00) Kev: this was yeah yeah avengers or smite’s heroes yes it was a um yes um it’s late (0:20:04) Al: Oh, it’s got Avengers in the name, right? Okay. (0:20:08) Al: the avenger’s earth’s mightiest heroes this is from (0:20:10) Al: 2010 yeah two seasons 26 episodes each 2010 to 2012 (0:20:12) Kev: yeah let’s say late 22,000 early 2010s yeah um that okay so that is probably the best (0:20:22) Kev: animated marvel project no that well okay no hold on let me uh (0:20:25) Al: oh really better than X-Men and Spider-man (0:20:29) Kev: Better than– you know what? (0:20:31) Kev: I’ll say– that might be– that’s tough to say. (0:20:35) Al: I’m going to need to post in Slack, haven’t I, and say, what are the must-watch Marvel (0:20:41) Al: animated ones, and make sure that I’ve watched all of them. (0:20:41) Kev: OK, well, I will say Earth’s Mightiest Heroes (0:20:46) Kev: is a must-watch. (0:20:48) Kev: At the very least, it is probably (0:20:50) Kev: one of the definitive pieces of Avengers– (0:20:53) Kev: no, not the– it is the definitive piece (0:20:55) Kev: of Avengers media, because it came out (0:20:56) Al: Okay, fair enough. (0:21:01) Kev: to the MCU film Avengers. (0:21:04) Al: Yeah, just in the run-up to it basically. (0:21:05) Kev: So it– yes. (0:21:09) Kev: And so it got to cover everything before, (0:21:13) Kev: like all the classic Avengers stories, (0:21:15) Kev: more or less, and the characterizations. (0:21:16) Al: It’s not it’s not in the same continuity, right? It’s not. (0:21:19) Kev: It is not, no. (0:21:21) Kev: So it is excellent, excellent, excellent. (0:21:24) Kev: And sadly, the MCU actually killed it. (0:21:27) Kev: First off, they delayed the second season by a year or two. (0:21:30) Kev: It would coincide with the release of the MCU Avengers film, more or less, and then after that, they cancelled the series to start a new series that was more MCU related or closer to that. (0:21:46) Kev: And it’s trying to shame. (0:21:48) Al: These things are so much easier to keep track of than to catch up on, right? (0:21:55) Al: People always talk, oh, there’s so much Marvel stuff now. (0:21:58) Al: But I feel like you just weren’t paying attention if you didn’t think there was (0:22:02) Al: a lot of Marvel stuff before, right? Like, there’s so many things. (0:22:03) Kev: Oh yeah, no, there’s always there’s so much Marvel stuff (0:22:08) Kev: much spectacular spider-man (0:22:10) Al: I know, but it’s on my list. (0:22:12) Kev: Okay, good cuz yeah, okay like I’d put Avengers like right up there a spectacular aired around the same time, too (0:22:21) Kev: like they’re just the definitive things for their respective series more or less like as much as I love 90s spider-man cuz it’s so (0:22:28) Kev: campy and ridiculous and ingrained into my (0:22:31) Kev: » The Spectacular Spider-Man. (0:22:33) Kev: Is the actual one you should watch because that’s the good one and actually does everything correctly. (0:22:38) Al: Okay, fair enough. (0:22:38) Kev: Yeah, but yeah, I can’t. Oh, man, you still got a lot of good stuff ahead. I’m very excited for you. (0:22:46) Al: There’s always more stuff to watch. (0:22:47) Kev: All right. (0:22:48) Al: I think that’s me. (0:22:51) Al: All right, let’s talk about some news. (0:22:53) Al: First up, we have RATOPIA, which is like a town builder. (0:23:01) Al: Farming survival game, however you want to describe it. (0:23:02) Kev: the rat topia builder, the rat village builder. (0:23:07) Al: It is going to hit 1.0 on the first of May. (0:23:11) Al: A-woo! (0:23:12) Kev: I’d I’m real for that. I’m gonna play that because I like 1.0s and this is a cool (0:23:18) Kev: I’ve always thought this is a cool one cuz it’s I mean one it’s it’s kind of that (0:23:23) Kev: side 2d (0:23:25) Kev: araria-esque (0:23:27) Kev: Gameplay, but it’s rats. So that’s that’s way more fun (0:23:30) Al: It is rats, you’re correct. Yeah, I have a feeling I’m going to play this one, but I (0:23:40) Al: don’t know how I’m going to feel about it, but I’m intrigued by it. Because you’re playing (0:23:45) Al: a specific character in this one, aren’t you? It’s not management style, which is what I (0:23:48) Kev: You it looks like it you’re playing (0:23:52) Kev: Yeah (0:23:52) Al: I really don’t like about time builders. So we’ll see. (0:23:54) Kev: Yeah (0:23:57) Kev: Yeah, yeah we will see I’m excited (0:24:01) Kev: Yeah, I like I like rodents and rodent (0:24:06) Al: Next we have Grimoire Groves, they’ve announced that they’re releasing on the 4th of March. (0:24:11) Al: I think they had a new trailer as well. (0:24:12) Kev: okay now hold on my same I’m ready to open I have to double-check I have a lot (0:24:18) Kev: of links open I forget which ones it’s (0:24:20) Al: This is a witch-based one, you know, it’s a roguelike dungeon crawler. (0:24:25) Kev: all networks you got us (0:24:29) Al: Sorry, cozy roguelike dungeon crawler with witches. (0:24:32) Kev: there we go that’s what we need (0:24:34) Al: Join the… (0:24:36) Al: I’ve been watching this one for ages. I don’t think I realized it was Roguelike. (0:24:40) Kev: I didn’t either, um, it’s, it’s, okay, look, I’m looking, are we rewatching the trailer? (0:24:49) Kev: This, yeah, okay, yeah, this is, this is a very much more cozy, pretty, cold blue lamb. (0:24:56) Kev: That’s what it really looks like. (0:24:58) Kev: Um, yeah, yeah, the art style is very fun. (0:24:58) Al: I like how the game looks, like graphics-wise, really nice. (0:25:03) Kev: It’s very colorful, psychedelic, look like it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s out there. (0:25:11) Kev: Um, I, some of the gameplay stuff looks interesting. (0:25:16) Kev: You’re casting a lot of, it’s not like, uh, of the lamb was, you know, sword, weapon, (0:25:21) Kev: game play or whatever, you’re casting a lot of stuff here. (0:25:24) Kev: Um, wow. (0:25:25) Kev: Even some of those icons for speaking, um, I’m, I’m, my interest has been piqued. (0:25:32) Al: Well that’s a good point. Is it, is it, is it roguelite like Cult of the Lamb is roguelite, (0:25:37) Al: where you have your like area that you build up and you go out on runs to get stuff? That’s (0:25:41) Kev: It sure looks like it because the farming you’re growing plants that’s advertised clearly in the trailer (0:25:43) Al: a good point. Yeah. Oh no. Is this actually going to be the second roguelite I actually like? (0:25:53) Al: Because it does the thing that I like. (0:25:54) Kev: Maybe it looks like it has a lot going for it. I’ll say that (0:25:58) Al: It doesn’t make it clear in the description exactly what the rules are. (0:26:02) Al: I’m going to have to buy this game now I’m an eye. Boo! (0:26:04) Kev: yeah (0:26:06) Kev: um (0:26:07) Kev: but hey (0:26:12) Kev: all gosh yes (0:26:14) Al: And then people can mock me for buying another rogue light. (0:26:16) Kev: there will be a demo updated demo on february seventeenth (0:26:20) Kev: if you want to try it out before you buy (0:26:22) Al: Maybe, maybe. That is what I probably should do. That is not what I tend to do. (0:26:28) Kev: It’s a good idea. (0:26:29) Kev: I’m not gonna do it. (0:26:32) Al: Uh speaking of games that I buy for some reason uh Sugajou Island have announced that they’re (0:26:40) Al: releasing on the 7th of March uh but the game is out now already for Kickstarter backers so if you (0:26:46) Al: backed it like me uh you have you should have your key by now um also the physical version is coming (0:26:54) Kev: I’ve got to say, I am impressed that a game has made it this far just by flying too close to the sun and coughing Stardew with changing the name up a little. (0:27:02) Al: I just, I hate myself every time I see the name. (0:27:07) Kev: Like, I’ll be like, I’m not even going to judge the gameplay because I’m not even, I haven’t looked at it closely enough, but this thing is going by its name alone like 90%. Let’s, let’s be quite honest. (0:27:21) Kev: Um… (0:27:22) Al: Yeah, I’m obviously going to talk about the game more in the future, not in this episode. (0:27:29) Al: It’s not top tier farming game, let’s put it that way. (0:27:32) Kev: I mean, it’s sure sure (0:27:35) Al: It’s not the absolute worst farming game I’ve played, though. (0:27:39) Kev: Sure, you know what you’re right the bar is high or very low depending on the direction (0:27:41) Al: Yeah, it has gone straight through the middle of that as meh. (0:27:50) Kev: Okay, you know is is that better or worse for it, I don’t know but (0:27:56) Al: Yeah, I’m gonna have a lot to say in the next episode probably (0:28:03) Al: But yeah, that’s that’s my initial thought is it is okay (0:28:10) Kev: there you go put that on the box (0:28:13) Al: They have already to be fair to them they have already fixed multiple thing multiple issues I had with the game (0:28:20) Al: So that is something (0:28:22) Kev: all right well you know that is uh that is like good just across the board when a developer (0:28:29) Kev: cares about uh their you know supporting and whatnot so I will say that good on them for that bit (0:28:38) Al: OK, so next we have this is interesting. (0:28:42) Al: Did you look at these links before the podcast? (0:28:44) Al: Just before we talk about this? (0:28:46) Al: OK, so just for the listeners, I’m going to try and explain what we’re looking at (0:28:51) Al: here. This is so that the game is the ranchers. (0:28:56) Al: We’ve talked about it before. (0:28:57) Al: It’s a farming game. (0:28:59) Al: It’s an open world farming game. (0:29:02) Al: What’s interesting is they’ve introduced police. (0:29:08) Al: And. (0:29:09) Kev: Aww, sick. (0:29:11) Al: I think I can describe this as they’re it basically seems like they’re turning (0:29:16) Al: this game into grand theft farm. (0:29:19) Kev: Yep, I was about to say, like, the game is called The Ranchers, but nothing on the Steam page is a ranch. (0:29:27) Al: There’s cows. What are you talking about? (0:29:34) Kev: Wait did I miss them? Oh, yeah on the cover. I see you’re right. There’s the image (0:29:34) Al: So, this is, yeah. So, they’re calling this the Ranchers Police District Update. Now don’t (0:29:45) Al: be confused. This is not like a game update. This is just like an information update. They’re (0:29:51) Al: describing this feature that’s going to be in the game, because this game isn’t out yet. (0:29:55) Al: not in Ali access. And I. (0:29:57) Al: They say I’m excited to introduce our newest feature, (0:30:01) Al: the ranchers police district, which by the way, just as a, (0:30:04) Al: just as a startup, this is what we all want is more police. (0:30:10) Al: Secondly, they say from the start, (0:30:13) Al: the ranchers has given you tons of freedom to play the game your way. (0:30:16) Al: You can stick to the rules and enjoy a calm, relaxed experience, (0:30:18) Al: or you can mix things up, maybe even try something a little daring, (0:30:22) Al: like swiping NPCs, crops, cars, cows, or chickens, (0:30:26) Al: vandalizing public. (0:30:27) Al: property or even shaking up national security for a little bit of mischief. Ultimately, (0:30:32) Al: it’s your call and you probably have your own reasons for how you play. Before, if you (0:30:37) Al: got caught, the game would hit you with a fine to teach you a lesson. Harsh and not (0:30:40) Al: very fun, especially in open world farming sim where freedom is key. Now, things feel (0:30:45) Al: a bit more like real life. Your actions have consequences. Each misdeed you commit will (0:30:50) Al: trigger a reaction from the rancher’s beliefs, giving you the freedom to deal with it your (0:30:55) Al: You can pay up, surrender, or even poo- (0:30:57) Al: things further at your own risk and potential reward. (0:31:02) Kev: Aww. (0:31:03) Al: So you can get arrested in this game, basically. (0:31:06) Kev: Yeah. (0:31:08) Kev: Yeah. (0:31:11) Al: Part of me is like, I hate it. (0:31:14) Kev: Yeah. (0:31:16) Al: And part of me is like, I actually kind of like it, (0:31:19) Al: because this is trying to do something different with farming games, (0:31:22) Al: which is such a rare thing nowadays, right? (0:31:24) Al: - Okay. (0:31:24) Kev: If that is true (0:31:25) Al: Thank you. (0:31:28) Al: What I also find really interesting is the comments on the Kickstarter. (0:31:32) Al: Can you see the Kickstarter? (0:31:33) Al: I don’t know if that’s backers only. (0:31:35) Al: Oh no, I’m not a backer. (0:31:36) Kev: let’s see here (0:31:36) Al: I’m not a backer, am I? (0:31:38) Al: Oh no, I did back it. (0:31:40) Kev: you back this all sick (0:31:42) Al: I don’t even remember backing this game. (0:31:46) Al: Oh man, I am not to be trusted with Kickstarter. (0:31:51) Al: I don’t think this is a backers only update. (0:31:54) Al: But anyway, the comments are… (0:31:57) Al: really not positive from this. One is like, “Are you sure you aren’t just trolling everyone (0:32:04) Al: with this? April 1st is quite some time away. I definitely did not want GTA.” (0:32:07) Kev: Aww yeah! (0:32:11) Al: “I was all for this game until this update. If I wanted police in the game I’m playing, (0:32:14) Al: I wouldn’t play a cosy farming sim.” Yeah, I agree, but also I don’t agree. I’m not (0:32:23) Al: Really sure. On Steam, there are 26 comments, but there’s a hundred. (0:32:27) Al: And 26 thumbs up. So I don’t think it’s clear cut. (0:32:34) Al: People hate this. I think it’s like there’s a lot of thoughts on this. (0:32:40) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I’m sure, I’m sure. (0:32:43) Al: You’re sure what? (0:32:44) Kev: Yeah, I’m sure there’s a lot of comments. (0:32:46) Kev: Like, it’s so crazy. (0:32:48) Kev: Like, something we didn’t even mention (0:32:52) Kev: is like, on the Steam page, the image next to the title. (0:32:56) Kev: Like, it’s, suppose we’re talking cozy or whatever, (0:32:59) Kev: but like, that looks like an 80s action here, (0:33:01) Kev: a movie poster guy. (0:33:02) Al: Yeah, it really does. (0:33:07) Kev: It’s wild. (0:33:08) Al: It doesn’t look like, it definitely doesn’t look like a rancher, that’s for sure. (0:33:10) Kev: Yeah, yeah, man, this is incredible, because like you said, (0:33:17) Kev: it’s grand theft farming, it really looks like that. (0:33:23) Kev: Cuz it’s nothing here looks like your typical cozy stuff. (0:33:31) Kev: And it’s new ideas, stuff that we don’t see normally and so on and so forth or (0:33:37) Kev: whatever, but it’s it’s just (0:33:40) Kev: I guess it’s just the context like this isn’t what you’d expect. (0:33:44) Kev: Um… (0:33:46) Al: This is the thing, it’s a balance, right? (0:33:47) Al: You will either love this because it’s doing something different or you’ll (0:33:51) Al: hate it because it’s not a cosy feature. (0:33:56) Al: But I kind of love that you can like just steal crops from the other townspeople. (0:34:02) Al: Like that, I kind of like that. (0:34:04) Al: Like I wouldn’t want, I don’t think I’d want that in Stardew. (0:34:06) Al: But like, how many times have you gone, you’d seen someone with crops outside (0:34:11) Al: their house and gone, “Oh, I wish I could just get them.” (0:34:14) Kev: Yeah, that is kind of fun. You’re right. You’re right. I like this concept, too (0:34:19) Al: I don’t know whether this will make it a fun game or not, but I am all in on seeing. (0:34:21) Kev: Um (0:34:23) Kev: I don’t either (0:34:27) Al: Let’s see, why not? (0:34:28) Kev: They’ve they’ve caught our attention they’ve caught our attention i’ll see i’ll say that. Um (0:34:29) Al: What’s the worst that happens? (0:34:31) Al: Yeah, for sure. (0:34:37) Kev: it’s it’s (0:34:39) Kev: Uh, yeah, um, I don’t know i’m excited to see more of this (0:34:41) Al: we will keep an eye on it and uh oh I mean I feel like i’ll definitely (0:34:50) Kev: Oh, oh, I’m I (0:34:55) Al: All right, and our final piece of news, our final piece of news is, my time at Sandrock (0:34:56) Kev: Feel like we have hops and robs (0:35:04) Al: have released a set of chibi figurines. (0:35:10) Kev: Yeah, they’re fine. (0:35:12) Kev: The figures are cute. (0:35:13) Kev: I’ll say that. (0:35:14) Kev: I’ll give them that. (0:35:14) Al: I don’t care about the characters, so it’s not like I’m going to buy them, but yeah. (0:35:18) Kev: Oh yeah, I don’t either. (0:35:20) Kev: Just say they’re cute quality. (0:35:21) Al: Yeah. (0:35:21) Kev: I don’t know what these people are or anything. (0:35:24) Al: Yeah, I would buy these if these were stardew characters. (0:35:24) Kev: I have no investment. (0:35:28) Kev: Oh, you know, I’m shocked that (0:35:31) Kev: Concerned Dave has never done that. (0:35:32) Kev: Like I feel there’s a gold mine to be made. (0:35:35) Al: like it’s a lot of effort to put into these things right and he made enough money with the game that (0:35:42) Kev: Yeah, yeah, I guess I guess that’s it. I guess that’s it, but you know (0:35:42) Al: he doesn’t need to whereas with like the the concert I feel like is something that he really (0:35:52) Al: wanted to do he made a joke in (0:35:53) Kev: Oh, yeah, clearly yeah, that is one thing concerned a but everything he does he does it cuz he cares (0:36:00) Al: in the the pamphlet for I can’t remember what it’s called like the leaflet thing that you get at (0:36:05) Al: the concert it says um the program yeah he made a joke in it that he used to be uh I can’t remember (0:36:14) Al: the exact wording but basically he used to be a musician that was his thing um but he couldn’t (0:36:19) Al: get anyone to buy his music and all he needed to do was make a very successful game for people to (0:36:23) Al: like his music that was it (0:36:25) Kev: That’s what it was all about, that was the long con, I love that, what a giga-chat move. (0:36:31) Kev: I’m going to make a successful video game, like genre-defining game, just so people can (0:36:35) Al: there you go all right that’s the news we are now gonna go into our second harvest of (0:36:39) Kev: buy my music. (0:36:47) Al: helikity island adventure so just for context I played this for a couple weeks when it first (0:36:54) Al: came out on ios and ipad os apple arcade that’s where it was it came out in apple arcade um (0:37:02) Al: play that on my iPad because I don’t have an iPhone. (0:37:06) Al: And I thought it was a really fun game, but I really hated using the touchscreen controls for it. (0:37:13) Al: So I was really excited to play it, not on a touchscreen. You obviously did not play it (0:37:19) Al: when it came out in Apple Arcade, but you were excited to play it. (0:37:22) Kev: I’ve never owned an Apple device in my life. (0:37:25) Kev: Very much so, because it looks wild, and guess what it is wild? (0:37:30) Al: I bought it on Steam, been playing on my Steam Deck, you bought it on Switch, (0:37:34) Al: and you’ve been playing on your switch. (0:37:35) Al: I guess, do we even need to do a quick intro to this game? (0:37:36) Kev: Yep, that’s correct. (0:37:40) Al: I feel like we don’t, because I feel like people know what this game is, (0:37:43) Al: because it’s been so in the news everywhere, right? (0:37:44) Kev: well you’re right it’s okay so well first of all it’s been a minute since (0:37:49) Al: How would you describe it then after having played it a little? (0:37:52) Kev: yeah I i will because I think it has been in the news but it’s also been a (0:37:55) Kev: minute since you know uh the the original episode of (0:37:59) Kev: maddie um so i’ll i’ll look (0:38:00) Al: you know the number of people that i’ve seen who make it who clearly don’t know that this was (0:38:04) Al: released before they’re like oh there’s a new game and it’s like well it’s just right go for (0:38:06) Kev: yeah yeah how about that yeah (0:38:11) Al: it then describe describe it because obviously I was on the previous episode you were not uh so tell (0:38:15) Kev: right (0:38:16) Al: me how you would describe this game having now played it for a bit (0:38:19) Kev: okay so like I think the biggest or easiest comparison point is animal (0:38:26) Kev: crossing new horizons because joker shocker I know (0:38:27) Al: - What? (laughs) (0:38:33) Kev: guess what you’ve got crafting you’ve got a house with furniture you’ve got (0:38:36) Kev: clothing you’ve got friend and neighbors and (0:38:39) Kev: villagers that you can gift things to shockers (0:38:42) Kev: But, it’s all San Río. (0:38:44) Kev: So, you got Hello Kitty and all the characters and whatnot, right? (0:38:49) Kev: Now, with that said, it is a bit more dynamic than Animal Crossing because you are climbing mountains, you’re diving into the ocean, (0:39:01) Kev: you’re, uh, there’s little mini-games and ruins to explore. (0:39:08) Kev: So, you’ve got this open-world island to explore while collecting stuff and– (0:39:14) Kev: catching critters and all this stuff. (0:39:16) Kev: Um, so yeah, so take one part Animal Crossing, one part San Río, and one part, maybe Breath of the Wild ‘cause they understand when we all start. (0:39:25) Al: So this is the thing, I jokingly said Breath of the Wild to people on Slack, but the more (0:39:31) Al: I think about it, the more I actually don’t think that’s a joke. It’s obviously not as (0:39:37) Al: big and as expansive and whatever, but the exploring feels so good. And let me tell you, (0:39:39) Kev: right (0:39:41) Kev: There’s no combat (0:39:48) Al: it feels so much better being able to play with a controller than using the touchscreen, (0:39:52) Al: But, like, that has not changed. (0:39:55) Al: It’s not changed since the first time I’ve done it, just the idea of being able to go like, “Oh, there’s a hill, there’s a volcano there, let me climb that volcano,” and you can just figure out how to do it, even though you know you’re not really meant to be going there yet, right? (0:40:09) Kev: Yeah (0:40:09) Al: Like, you’ve not progressed the story to that point, but you can just make it work. (0:40:11) Kev: What I wanted to Ritsuko was up there, I really wanted to clivet volcano (0:40:17) Al: And you can, and this is the thing, it’s designed in such a way that, like, you have a stamina bar, and, like, you can’t just climb straight up forever. (0:40:25) Al: There’s little ledges, and there’s, like, other things you can climb up on, and you can rest, and you can get anywhere you want to if you really want to. (0:40:26) Kev: Yeah, but if you look yep (0:40:33) Kev: Yup pretty much right like sometimes it’s real hard like sometimes it’s challenging (0:40:39) Kev: But if you try you get you really scrape and look for you can find a way (0:40:46) Al: You know the meme, this is why I don’t do X anymore, there’s too many sweats. (0:40:46) Kev: Yeah (0:40:50) Al: I feel like that, but with this, right? (0:40:50) Kev: Yeah (0:40:52) Al: This is why I don’t play Hello Kitty anymore, there are too many sweats. (0:40:59) Kev: Okay, so um and okay, and so of course the game like it begins with as (0:41:06) Kev: So you’ve lauded so many times Alan rightfully, so it begins with jumping out of a plane (0:41:13) Al: And a snake, a snake’s on a plane reference. (0:41:15) Kev: Everyone’s a (0:41:17) Kev: Snakes on a plane reference (0:41:20) Kev: there (0:41:21) Kev: Okay, so we you know remember you describing that you’ve told me that before and (0:41:26) Kev: You know I thought that was wild but then I when I played it the the crazy part to me is there was no (0:41:32) Kev: actual reason to jump from (0:41:35) Kev: there was I’ve been shooting out a lot of cake and I (0:41:40) Kev: Don’t know well inconvenient. I don’t think (0:41:40) Al: just gets fed up and says ‘I’m fed up of these cakes on this plane’ and then just jumps out the plane. (0:41:46) Kev: And everyone’s like all right, we’re going let’s do it. We’re falling (0:41:48) Al: Yeah, yeah. That’s the weirdest bit. Is it like, ‘Okay, fine. I bet. Let’s do this.’ (0:41:55) Kev: uh oh my gosh oh so yeah that that’s our premise um I i like that little intro (0:42:02) Al: I just thought you go up, you go up to, you go up to Hello Kitty and she’s like, “Oh, (0:42:08) Al: here are some balloons. (0:42:09) Al: Trust me.” (0:42:10) Al: And you’re like, “Do I, do I trust you with balloons?” (0:42:14) Al: Well, yeah, no. (0:42:16) Kev: well it worked also you get a diving like air skydiving minigame which go (0:42:22) Kev: through the rings I don’t even know if they get you anything but or if you ever (0:42:24) Al: I don’t know, I don’t think, I don’t know if you do ever do that again, obviously you (0:42:26) Kev: do that again (0:42:29) Al: use the balloons again, right, like you can jump off things and use the balloons, but (0:42:33) Al: I don’t think that minigame type thing is ever in the game again, I don’t know, I mean (0:42:39) Al: I’ve not finished it, so maybe there is a time, but yeah, it’s really weird. (0:42:44) Kev: And you go through rings, but I don’t remember getting anything for going through there (0:42:50) Al: to get satisfaction of having gone through the rings. (0:42:53) Kev: Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty much and then you know, that’s fine (0:42:57) Kev: Okay, so (0:43:00) Kev: First okay one of the actually before you jump off the plane you design your character (0:43:05) Kev: And I love the freedom in that because you can be because we’re talking Sanrio, right? (0:43:11) Kev: So we’ve got all the different critters and animals and you can (0:43:14) Kev: be pretty much anyone you want. I think the options for customizing is pretty fun. What (0:43:21) Kev: was your little avatar? A dog? Yeah. Styles, breeds or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, like you can (0:43:23) Al: Yeah I’m a dog but yeah I like it they’ve got like I think it’s like eight different animals and then within the animals they’ve got different face shapes and they’re like dramatically different styles of them and then yeah you can like change your bunch of other stuff. (0:43:42) Kev: be a bird, and in the birds, you can be a bird. (0:43:44) Kev: I’m a penguin, or like a falcon, or blue jay, or whatever. (0:43:47) Kev: Mine looks like a blue jay, basically. (0:43:49) Kev: I got a little pen that looks like a blue jay in the shape of that. (0:43:52) Al: I chose the fattest dog that existed in the list, I couldn’t really describe what type (0:43:59) Al: of dog it looked like, but yeah, it was just the chubbiest, comfiest looking dog. (0:44:02) Kev: Yeah, yeah, the wall like a brick house (0:44:08) Kev: Yeah, like that’s a good one (0:44:11) Kev: So, um, you know, I think I should (0:44:16) Kev: Before continuing I should declare I don’t know Sanrio very well to be quite Frank (0:44:21) Kev: I know Hello Kitty because one of the most iconic (0:44:22) Al: Me neither. (0:44:26) Kev: Characters ever created right dominates Japan (0:44:30) Kev: But I don’t know the (0:44:32) Kev: rest of the cast that well. So this is my first venture into the Senri universe. (0:44:36) Kev: I knew Agritsuko because her anime was pretty popular. I didn’t watch it, but I (0:44:41) Kev: knew the character. And I love how she’s treated as the the kind of the outsider. (0:44:48) Kev: Everyone else is friends, but she doesn’t know anyone. That was kind of cute. But (0:44:53) Kev: yeah, it’s been fun to meet all these characters. Bompurin is the best. I’m a (0:45:02) Kev: Bompurin. Yeah, the carapace is pretty cute. He’s pretty fun. (0:45:07) Kev: But it’s Meru. He’s the one who was tired of the cakes and jumped off the (0:45:12) Kev: plane. So you know, there you go. I think that sums him. Oh yeah, yeah, he’s a big (0:45:12) Al: Yeah. And a big comic guy. A big comic guy as well. (0:45:21) Kev: comic guy. Both like he likes jokes and the actual comics. So yeah, so he got all (0:45:29) Kev: that, um, so I played (0:45:32) Kev: the game for about a week, not even a full week. (0:45:34) Kev: I got it on Monday, I think it was, um, yeah. (0:45:38) Al: something like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think Monday, yeah. (0:45:40) Kev: Uh, so it, uh, like, I mean, I really enjoyed the game because, but also I feel (0:45:48) Kev: like there’s still so much for me to do, um, because the game is quest driven, right? (0:45:55) Kev: Like you’re, you’re, you’re going around your, you have to complete quests for (0:45:58) Kev: people, gathering things, crafting things, so on and so finding things. (0:46:02) Kev: Um, and that’s kind of what progresses. (0:46:05) Kev: Not just the quote unquote story, but all the features, right? (0:46:08) Kev: Like it’s not like animal crossing where you just wait for the shovel to show up (0:46:12) Kev: in Tom look store to buy it. (0:46:14) Kev: You have to complete a quest to unlock a fishing rod, the net, whatever. (0:46:18) Al: Oh, and quests is the game, like this, if you don’t like quests, if you don’t like (0:46:19) Kev: » Yeah. (0:46:23) Al: fetch quests, this is not the game for you, like everything is a quest. (0:46:26) Kev: - Yeah, yup. (0:46:27) Kev: Yup. (0:46:27) Al: But that means that I remember, I’m sure I talked about this last time, but I need to (0:46:31) Al: bring it up again. (0:46:32) Al: The quest system in this is so good. (0:46:35) Al: Like as someone who loves quests and loves lists of quests, it’s absolutely good. (0:46:40) Al: Not only does it show you every quest that you’ve ever done, and every quest that you (0:46:44) Al: currently have that you can do. (0:46:46) Al: It also shows you future quests and what you need (0:46:48) Al: to do to get them. It’s great, because everything is based on friendship levels and gifting (0:46:50) Kev: Yep, that is pretty solid. (0:46:55) Al: things to the other villagers, blah, blah, blah. And so it’s like, oh, to get this quest, (0:47:00) Al: you need to talk to this person, or you need to get this person to friendship level four. (0:47:05) Al: And it’s just like, it’s so good. And it can be a little bit overwhelming, especially at (0:47:08) Al: the beginning, when you go from one or two things to do, to suddenly you have a list (0:47:12) Al: of 10 things, but you can pick and choose and you don’t need to go quickly. (0:47:14) Kev: Y

Gordon is reunited with an old crush. Based on a post by Blacksheep, in 2 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories.   The monthly Mother's Union meeting was taking place at Gladys Wilcox's bungalow. There was much to discuss, mainly tomorrow's Easter Sunday service. However the main topic of conversation was the vicar's phallus. "He was just standing there, starkers! Swinging, I tell you, swinging. It was like a boa constrictor poking out of a tree. I didn't know where to look!" Mrs. Harris exclaimed. "Wish I could've been there," Mrs. Wilcox replied. "Really, Gladys!" "Well at our age there's not much opportunity for those sorts of thrills is there?" She grinned and glanced at Norman the churchwarden, who said nothing and awkwardly sipped his coffee. Being the only man there, he felt uncomfortable sitting through this, but Mrs. Wilcox had insisted he attend. "How come he was naked?" Another woman asked. "Said he'd been having a shower, but I know a lie when I see one. If you ask me, him and his wife had been; you know;" "Having a quickie?" Mrs. Wilcox replied. Norman almost choked on his coffee, remembering that 21st birthday surprise the vicar had arranged for Jenna in the church, sixteen months ago. "Yes, exactly!" "You know something, Maureen, I was chatting to Maud Finch, on the bus the other day. Now she lives on Haddock Street, in one of those council houses that overlook the railway line. She tells me that groups of drunk young men are forever going up on that opposite embankment and mooning at passing trains." "Has she made a complaint?" "Why on earth would she want to do that?" Mrs. Wilcox spluttered. "I said to her, I'll call round later this week and I'll bring a pair of binoculars!" Over on the other side of town, at 64 Stovepipe Avenue, Gordon Leesmith yawned and sat up in bed. He squinted at the alarm clock. It was ten thirty. "Oh Gord, you lazy bugger," he said to himself, stretching his arms. He hadn't intended on having such a long lie-in. Myah had gone to work hours ago. She'd been working Saturdays the past few weeks, covering for Kate, a work colleague who was recovering from major abdominal surgery. Gordon staggered out of bed and scratched his belly as he peered out of the window. The weather seemed reasonable today. The past week had seen some very unsettled conditions, with sunny spells and frequent heavy showers, so typical of British springtime. "I'd better get a move on. I promised Myah I'd cook tonight and there's not a bite of food in the house." Gordon didn't relish the prospect of going to the supermarket during the Easter weekend. Every shop was crammed. Besides, he wanted to head to the church and spend an hour practicing on the organ ready for tomorrow's special service. He'd have the church all to himself for once. He relished this temporary period of calm. Easter was always busy for the organist. As well as his full-time job repairing organs, he'd had to play the Wednesday Eucharist, the Maundy Thursday service, yesterday's Good Friday evening service and on Sunday, it was the big one. At least he could rest his fingers on Monday's bank holiday. "Can't wait to jet off next month," he muttered, as he hurriedly dressed himself and brewed a cup of tea. He'd booked a week's holiday in Tenerife for himself and Myah. Their first holiday together and they were really looking forward to it. Gordon wasn't one for culture, eco-tourism or trailing round ancient ruins. Sun, sea and all-inclusive hotels were his idea of paradise. Myah had never been to the Canary Islands. He hoped she wouldn't be too bored just lounging on the beach or by the pool all day. He'd booked an adults-only hotel, the four star Golden Vista in Playa de las Americas. It had excellent reviews on TripAdvisor. Meanwhile, at the vicarage; Reverend Morris was in turmoil. "Maureen Harris has got a right mouth on her. Who needs social media when you've got a pensioner who's Britain's answer to Hedda Hopper?" "Simon, you're worrying unnecessarily," Jenna said. "You've not done anything wrong. You were in your own home and you didn't know she was there." "Oh, I don't know. I'm the parish vicar and I just accidentally exposed myself in front of an elderly member of my congregation. Can't say I'm too thrilled about that." "Maureen shouldn't have walked in. She was in the wrong. Said she knocked, but when nobody answered, she should've given up and gone." "And I should've locked the front door! I bet she's told everyone at the Mother's Union that she saw me nude!" Jenna shrugged. "So, she saw your cock. I bet many other ladies wish they could've been so lucky!" Gordon parked up on the Tesco Express car park. As expected, the place was heaving with people rushing to get last-minute groceries. Tubs of cut-price garden fence paint were piled up outside the store. As he was looking at these, he heard someone call his name. "Gordon? Gordon Leesmith. Is it you?" He spun round in surprise. A tall, slim woman, late sixties at a guess, and with silvery hair cut into a sleek bob, was stood next to him. She was dressed in a long, pale grey coat with fur-lined collar. Underneath, a skirt or dress of some sort, black tights and ankle boots. "Uh, hello? Yes, I'm Gordon Leesmith. Who are you?" The woman chuckled. "Oh dear. I really have changed haven't I? You don't remember me, do you?" Gordon blinked as he studied her face carefully, then he let out a gasp. "Harriet; Harriet Fairfax?" "Guilty!" Gordon was too stunned to speak at first, but he quickly composed himself. After so many years, here was the woman he'd lost his virginity to, way back one summer night in 1985, when he was just eighteen. His former piano teacher! "Oh God! I can't believe it! I; I, it's so wonderful to see you again! I always wondered what happened to you, Harriet. The last time we met was in 1988, when I'd just got my ARCO diploma. After that, you; well, vanished." "That's a long story. Come, let's go and have a coffee. We've both got a lot to catch up on. I'm only here until Tuesday, then I'm flying back home." "You live abroad?" "I emigrated to Australia when I got married." "Blimey. I think I need more than a coffee. I know a good place." He took her arm in his and they headed across the road. "You certainly have grown in confidence," Harriet smiled. "I always knew you would." At a small pub in the town center, Gordon sipped an overpriced beer and listened intently as Harriet filled him in on her life story. He felt a lump in his throat as she told him of her marriage to Graham, an Australian musician she'd met shortly after Gordon's fateful night in Blackpool Tower. "I suppose my head was well and truly turned. I was blinded by love. You have to remember back then in the Eighties, a single woman, mid-thirties and childless, well I was seen as being left on the shelf. Graham seemed the perfect man; and as I was never close to my parents, I figured here was my one chance to have a new start. New country, new job. So we settled in Perth. I started work as a music teacher. Loved it. Work was bliss. Unfortunately, marriage to Graham was anything but." "Was he unfaithful?" Gordon asked. "No. I would've preferred it if he was. He was abusive. It's because of him that I have partial hearing in my right ear. The beatings got so bad; he beat me black and blue. Even when I was pregnant." Tears pricked Gordon's eyes. "Bastard. Oh God, Harriet. I'm so sorry. Tell me you managed to leave him?" "Didn't need to. He took it upon himself to commit suicide one evening. I came back from work and found him swinging in the garage. August 11th, 1997. What a day to remember, eh? He'd always been a heavy drinker. I found out he'd run up massive debts, got himself fired." "Dear God. How did you cope?" "Well friends and neighbors rallied round. I'm lucky. I'm one of those people who makes friends easily. I had a good support network. Besides, I had to stay strong, for the sake of my boys, Daniel and Ryan; only got Ryan now." She paused and Gordon wondered whether he should press her further. "Daniel; died. He was twelve. A total sweetheart. You see, he was born with Down's Syndrome. Graham never coped with it. He was the loveliest, most gentle boy. Everyone who met him just adored his sunny nature. He loved animals and music. But Graham ignored him. Ryan came along three years later. He's able-bodied. Actually that's why I'm over here. I've been visiting Ryan. He's thirty now. Works as a concert pianist. I'm so proud of him. He's fiercely independent. Doesn't need me fussing over him, but we're still close. This is the last time I'll be flying here. I can't handle these long haul flights any more, now that I'm almost seventy-four. Never did like flying. He'll be the one flying over to see me next time." "You look amazing," Gordon quickly blurted out, wiping his eyes. "Heh, thanks." "I'm so sorry you've had to endure all that, Harriet," Gordon sniffed, placing his hand on hers. "Thanks for being a good listener. Hey and I'm a survivor. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?" "So; you didn't re-marry?" "Nah. After Graham died, I focused on being a mum. I got used to being single. Although ten years ago, I met Ray. He's widowed like me and a few years older. He's a total gentleman, bless him. I can't say he excites me sexually. I hope this doesn't sound too mean; he's a bit boring, but at my age, I'm past all that. It's just nice to have someone who's dependable and kind." Gordon nodded. Looking at Harriet, he thought she still looked very attractive. She'd aged well, despite the heartache she'd gone through. A surge of excitement rushed through him. "Anyways Gordon, I've prattled on about myself for too long! Tell me what you've been up to all these years!" Without wanting to bore her, Gordon gave a rundown of his life. From his marriage to Marjorie, to her cheating on him and then divorcing him, to becoming organist and choirmaster at St Michael's church, to meeting Myah. He chose to omit any mention of Jenna, the stunning vicar's wife who he'd bedded countless times before Myah arrived on the scene. "She's very attractive," Harriet said as Gordon showed her a photo on his smartphone. "You look so happy together. Do you'll think you'll have children in future?" "It's a possibility, given that she's much younger than me. Marjorie was adamant she never wanted children. I respected that. I confess I've never given much thought to becoming a dad. But if Myah does want to become a mum, then I'll be up for it." "About the age gap. It's a large one. Has that presented any problems?" "It did at first. Her parents were furious. Some hurtful things were said, but her mother and I eventually came to an understanding. Most people at church have been okay but there were a couple of exceptions. It upset me when my cousin Barry called me a "borderline nonce." He was only joking, but it hurt. She'll be twenty in July. Myah was the one who pursued me, not the other way round;" "Perhaps Barry was jealous of you. But yes, that was a crass thing to say. Well Gordon, there's one thing I want to experience before I head back Down Under." His eyes widened. "Really? What's that?" "I want to see and hear you play a pipe organ! You showed such skill and talent way back in 1985;" she winked at him and he felt that surge of excitement again. "Funnily enough, I was planning to have a practice at church today. Tomorrow's a big day, being Easter Sunday. We've got two choirs singing. Care to join me on a trip to St Michael's? It's only a five minute walk from here." The Mother's Union meeting was drawing to a close, but poor Norman could bear it no longer. Mrs. Wilcox was still questioning Mrs. Harris on a certain part of the vicar's anatomy. "Ladies, please excuse me; I really need to; er, relieve myself. Thank you for your company and I'll see you at church tomorrow!" "Oh yes, take care Norman!" they replied, oblivious to his embarrassment. "That's a fine lodger you've got yourself, Gladys. Now I tend to view men as nothing more than useless articles, but he is a true Christian." "Oh he truly is, Maureen. We have such wonderful times together. He was very easy to train!" At St Michael's church, Gordon gave Harriet a quick tour, before leading her to the organ. "This is a beautiful church," she said. "That's one thing I miss about living in Australia. All of the churches there are recent by comparison. There isn't the history. Oh there are some lovely ones, but it's not the same. This one goes back to medieval times. I love old buildings." "Yes, it's a nice church. Good community here too. I get on so well with the vicar. Reverend Morris is a good egg. His sermons are rather tedious, but nobody's perfect, eh?" He sat on the organ stool. "Here she is! What do you think?" "She's a beauty, Gordon. Three manuals, and the pipework is incredible. A large organ for such a small church." "Aye, she's a grand old lass. I gave her a complete overhaul in January. Replaced some of the big flue pipes. Now she sounds better than ever." He switched on the lamp above the manuals. "Very handy having an organist who can fix organs as well as play them. That's a very specialized job, isn't it?" "Pretty much. Right; what would you like me to play?" Harriet removed her thick coat and slid onto the stool next to him. "Hmm. It's an overplayed piece of music, but I've always liked The Entertainer. You played that for me when you used to come for lessons, remember?" "Ah yes. I remember!" As he began to play, Harriet glanced at her former student, no longer a gauche, skinny teenager but a stocky, fifty-six year old man, with silver hair. He had a paunch, but it suited him. He'd grown into his looks and actually looked better now than when he was eighteen. She ran a finger across her chin, and carefully considered her next move. He truly had become a very gifted organist. Gordon was halfway through playing, when a hand on his thigh made him play a wrong note. He stopped and looked down. "Umm;" "No-one must find out about this." Harriet whispered. "Well Myah's at work; and I don't think Ray can see what we're up to from the other side of the world;" Gordon stammered. He couldn't believe history was repeating itself. "An old girl like me can still get all hot and bothered seeing an attractive younger man," she teased. Her thigh was pressing against his and his cock was starting to respond. "Uh; Harriet," Gordon mumbled, and once again he was transported back to 1985, and was that shy, awkward teenager again. "I; just want you to know. You were my first major crush. Well; I'd fancied other girls, but you; well you just; did it for me." "I'm so glad to hear you say that, Gordon. You were the only student I ever felt attracted to. Truth is, at the time, I was feeling rather sorry for myself and unattractive. When I found out you had a crush on me, it was an incredible turn-on. To be desired by a much-younger man. I knew the whole time." "Guess I wasn't that good at being discreet," Gordon replied. "Not at all. You were shy and went bright red every time I spoke to you. Which was very endearing. I just had to make your first time a memorable one. During the pandemic, I did a lot of thinking. I started looking at old photos. I had one of you taken at your graduation. I started wondering what became of you. So I started trawling the Internet. I checked Facebook. There were a lot of Gordon Leesmiths on there, but not the one I was seeking." "I don't use social media," Gordon said. "Never have. Don't like the idea of it. I'm too old for the likes of Thick Tock or whatever it's called. " "That's fair enough. By chance, I came across a post made on the Facebook page of your church. It mentioned an organist called Gordon Leesmith. I clicked the link to the church's website and on the list of clergy and laity, there was a photo of you! I knew at once it was you." "Ah. So you were able to hunt me down with ease?" He smiled. "I'm glad you did; I've never forgotten that night in Blackpool." She leaned in closer and kissed his cheek. "Gordon; how about I give you a present? For old time's sake and all?" Her hand brushed his crotch and she could tell at once that he'd got a hard-on. "My, my. Seems like I haven't lost my touch!" "You're still beautiful, Harriet." He kissed her back. "I'm all yours;" She smiled and unzipped his trousers. As she freed his erection from his y-fronts, Gordon closed his eyes, savoring the sensation of her hot breath on his skin. He felt her lips wrap around him, and a shudder of pleasure ran through him. She began to bob her head, her mouth moving up and down his length in a rhythm that was both masterful and irresistible. Her tongue danced along the underside of his shaft, teasing and taunting him. "Oh God; oh shit, yes," he moaned. He was producing a lot of precum. Gordon considered himself an over-producer of the stuff. It was a bloody nuisance when one's underpants got wet from being horny all the time, as he usually was. The sounds of their breathing filled the empty church, the rustle of Harriet's skirt and the creak of the organ bench provided a steady beat as she continued her ministrations. Her grip on him was firm, but gentle, and she seemed to know just how to stroke him, how to tease him, how to drive him wild with desire. "Ahh," Gordon grunted. His hand caught one of the manuals and a few wrong notes disturbed the quietness. As she bobbed her head, Gordon could feel his control slipping away. He arched his back, letting out a low groan, his fingers digging into the sides of the organ stool. Harriet knew just how to use her tongue, teasing him mercilessly with it, driving him to the edge of release before pulling back and starting again. Her grip on him tightened ever so slightly, and he felt a surge of desire course through him, making his muscles tense and his heart race. With a groan that was equal parts pleasure and desperation, Gordon tensed, his hips bucking forward as he lost control. He felt the first spurt of hot seed erupt from his cock. Harriet didn't pull away, but instead opened her mouth wider, letting his essence flow over her tongue, down her throat. The sensation was almost too much for him to bear, and he let out a hoarse cry as he released himself fully into her mouth. As his orgasm subsided, Harriet slowly pulled back, her lips still wrapped around him, her eyes shining with pride and satisfaction. "That was wonderful, Gordon," she whispered. "Just wonderful." "Just like old times," came his breathless reply. Jenna Receives a Special Easter Egg. "You're quiet, Gordy!" Myah said as noticed him slumped on the settee, idly running his finger down an empty cup. "Oh! Sorry love," he muttered, quickly composing himself. His mind was still reeling from that fateful encounter with Harriet. He took a deep breath. "Hard day at the organ?" Myah giggled, leaning over the settee and kissing his forehead. "Got myself all prepared for tomorrow's service," he said quickly. "Erm, I have a confession to make; I er, was so wrapped up with practicing, I totally forgot to get some food in. But; worry not. Because you and I are dining out tonight! How do you fancy trying out that new Italian place? My treat. A working girl needs pampering." "Aww, yes!" Myah replied. "You're the best, my organ boy! Right, I'd better go and get changed!" She hurried upstairs and Gordon was alone with his thoughts once more. "Glad I got to see her one last time," he said to himself. "Goodbye Harriet." Next morning; The daffodils were in full splendor. A sea of yellow had erupted on the grass verges flanking the road to St. Michael's Church. A bright sunny sky greeted worshippers on this glorious Easter Sunday. Inside the church, it was bustling. Reverend Morris hurried about, making sure everything was just right, a music stand here, some extra hymn books there. "Where's Jenna?" He asked the churchwarden. "Why, in the vestry of course, with the rest of the choir. She's wearing robes this time, Vicar! Plus, Gordon and that Guild Voices chap will want to give a pep talk before they start." "Oh yes of course, silly me. Thanks Norman." "Do try to relax, it'll turn out fine. I have a feeling this Easter service is going to be unforgettable!" "Hope so, Reverend Morris replied, hurrying back down the aisle. "Right time for some more meet and greet;" A wrinkled hand grabbed the sleeve of his cassock as he passed a middle row of pews. "Good morning Vicar. I trust you weren't ignoring me?" "Ah; good morning to you, Mrs. Harris. Er, no I genuinely didn't see you there." "Of course, there are some things that cannot be unseen," the old lady replied, leaving him in no doubt has to what she was referring to. He cringed. "I'm so very sorry about that." "No need to apologize. You're lucky it was me and not Gladys Wilcox who saw you showing off everything the Lord gave you. Her reaction would've been rather different to mine." "Uh; I see," the vicar coughed, feeling his cheeks burning with shame. "Makes you sick doesn't it?" Mrs. Harris continued. "Just the thought of it." "The thought of what?" "Senior citizens lusting after younger men." Reverend Morris was unsure how to respond to that, but luckily Josh the curate intervened. "Would you believe it?" He said. "That flower arch around the door is absolutely infested with greenfly. Most of the flowers are already dead." "What? It only went up last night!" In the vestry, everyone was crammed in like sardines. Gordon had taken charge of the St. Michael's choir, whilst Derek was organizing the Guild Voices. "Oi, Luke, get that surplice on the right way round!" Gordon yelled at a choirboy. "Hannah, put that smartphone away!" He shook his head. "Honestly, it's like herding a bunch of cattle." "A shame about the lack of space," Derek remarked. "I keep forgetting what a small church this is. Morning Jenna!" He winked at the vicar's wife. "Hello Derek." The choirmaster lowered his voice. "Need a quick word with you alone; where can we go that's private?" Jenna glanced round. "Come with me." He discreetly followed her as she slipped out of the vestry and to a tiny storage area by the side of the organ pipes. There was no door, just a curtained archway. The room little more of an alcove, and the two of them could barely fit inside it. "Cozy," Derek smiled. "Got a little Easter present for you, Jenna," he said, rummaging in his jacket pocket. He handed her a small box. "Aww, thank you," she said. "That's really thoughtful." "Go on, you can open it now." "Oh that's cute," she smiled, holding up a little plastic yellow and green Easter egg on a pink silicone cord, and assumed it was a decoration of some kind. "Does it have chocolate inside?" Derek gave a mischievous grin. "Nope. You see; it's meant to go inside you! I was wondering if you could; wear it for me during the service? I'll enjoy an interesting little Easter egg hunt later; if you get what I mean." Jenna smiled back. Derek was more adventurous than she'd first imagined. "Why certainly, Derek. Maybe after the service, He will have Risen; and I'm not talking about Jesus there." She winked and hurried off to the toilets. "Naughty girl," Derek chuckled. "I hope she's in fine voice. Now the fun begins!" Shortly after, Jenna returned and took her place among the other Guild Voices choir members at the front of the church. Gordon began playing the voluntary, whilst the church choir did the usual procession down the main aisle. Reverend Morris stepped up to the pulpit and glanced at his wife. It seemed odd seeing his wife wearing a cassock and surplice, but she wore it well. He puffed out his chest with pride, noticing all the full pews. His church had definitely beaten St. Peter's. "Brothers and sisters, a very warm welcome to you all on this joyful Eastertide! I ask you to take the joy and hope of Easter and let it be your light and your life. Tell people that there's hope. In the driest valley, there is the resurrection. In the darkest night, there is the resurrection. In the worst moments you ever go through there is the resurrection, there is the promise of life, there is Jesus whispering into your ear saying that it's okay because death has lost its sting. There is the resurrection. Death is defeated. He has done it. He is risen. Hallelujah! We're very honored today to be hosting the Guild Voices Choir, led by the talented Mr. Derek Blackledge, who has put together a fantastic medley of holy music, along with our own equally talented organist, Gordon. He is, of course, ably assisted by his partner and organist-in-training Myah, who will be playing a few pieces for us. Now, without further ado, let us stand for our first hymn, Thine Be the Glory!" Just as Jenna was about to take a deep breath and focus on the music, she felt the egg she'd inserted into her womanhood begin to vibrate uncontrollably. Then, she noticed Derek, fiddling with his smart watch. His expression was one of mischief and amusement, and she knew instinctively that he was the one responsible for this unexpected distraction. The strains of the mighty organ filled the church as Gordon began playing the hymn. Jenna gave an awkward jolt, but was determined not to lose control during this situation. Well played, Derek, she thought. Well played. The choirmaster was waving his baton, and concentrating on the choir, but every so often, he made eye contact with Jenna, who was stood on the front row. Her voice was a little shaky, but it wasn't noticeable, thankfully. As the vibrations increased, Jenna struggled to maintain her composure. The sensations were overwhelming, and she could feel herself growing warm all over. She tried to ignore the egg, focusing instead on the beautiful music and the sacredness of the occasion. But try as she might, she couldn't help but be affected by the relentless vibrations. Her breath grew shorter, her cheeks flushed, and her body trembled with each passing moment. "No more we doubt thee, glorious Prince of life; life is naught without thee; aid us in our strife; Make us more than conquerors, through thy deathless love: bring us safe through Jordan to thy home above! Thine be the glory, risen conquering Son, Endless is the vict'ry, thou o'er death hast won." The hymn ended, and quiet descended on the church. Everyone sat down, and that didn't make it any easier for Jenna, as she squirmed awkwardly on the chair. "What's the matter with the vicar's missus, she got fleas or something?" One of the old ladies on the front row of pews whispered. "Well you know what young people are like, Maud. They can't sit still for five minutes can they? Probably suffering from smartphone withdrawal." "Either that or she's bursting for the toilet!" Sitting through the readings was bad enough, but the sermon was to prove far worse. Derek had obviously been planning this ever since their encounter on Wednesday night. The devious choirmaster was loving this! She gritted her teeth as she noticed him fiddle with his watch again. He wasn't finished with her yet. Just as she thought she had regained control, it started to vibrate again, this time more insistently than before. It seemed to have a mind of its own, dancing against her clit with an unyielding determination. Jenna bit back a moan, her cheeks burning red as she fought to maintain her composure. She closed her eyes and concentrated on the next piece of music in the book, trying to ignore the sensations building inside her. "We all make mistakes and mess up. The way you �be� a good Christian is to have faith in that cross and empty grave, in what Jesus did there. Because our faith is the one where God comes to us to give us hope and defeat the powers of sin and death for us, out of love!" After what seemed like an eternity, Reverend Morris finally ended his sermon. It was time for the next hymn, The Old Rugged Cross, but first, there was a piece of music to be performed a cappella by the choir. Gordon left his place at the organ and stood alongside Derek. He adjusted his open-fronted black gown and nodded at the choir. He noticed Jenna and smiled at her. She looked a bit uncomfortable, which he assumed was down to her singing in front of an audience for the first time. As the singing began, Derek subtly pressed his watch again. Jenna's voice went from low to impossibly high. Her eyes closed and as she sang, she felt a newfound strength welling up inside her. It was a strength born of passion and desire, of the need to express herself fully and without restraint. Gordon was amazed at her vocal range, then again, he didn't need to remind himself that the stunning vicar's wife had many talents; some he was no longer privy to, but her cousin had more than made up for. As she belted out the final chorus, her body trembled with the effort. Her breath came in ragged gasps, and her heart pounded wildly in her chest. The egg vibrator continued its relentless dance against her sensitive flesh, sending waves of pleasure coursing through her veins. She could feel herself growing closer and closer to the edge, the release just out of reach. Gordon continued to watch her. Blimey, she's really putting her heart and soul into this performance. He thought. It's almost as if; she's about to have an orgasm! He scolded himself for thinking about sex yet again. Yet he could not shake the image of her desperate to climax. Under those robes, Miss Kitty could be sopping wet. Mmm, a nice thought. He took a deep breath as he felt his cock starting to twitch, and quickly put that out of his mind. The last thing he needed was to develop a hard-on in front of the entire church. The a cappella piece ended, and it was time for Gordon to return to the organ and play the next hymn. As he did, he stole one last glance at the vicar's wife. Maybe it was just nerves. He sat down on the organ stool and began playing The Old Rugged Cross. Jenna glanced around, hoping no one had noticed the effect the egg was having on her. But everyone seemed to be too focused on singing of the hymn, their faces glowing with pride and accomplishment. Jenna bit her lip, as she fought to control the egg's relentless movements. She closed her eyes, trying to focus on something, anything, other than the sensations building inside her. But it was no use. The loud notes of the organ, the church, passages from the Bible; all seemed to feed the fire burning inside her. She was about to come, and there was no stopping it. She closed her eyes, her fists gripping her hymn book tightly as she surrendered. She started moaning gently as the pressure within built up. As the hymn's final verse was sung, Jenna climaxed with an almighty yell and her body shuddered as her orgasm spewed forth her juices and then there was a pop. She gasped as she felt the egg vibrator slip loose and fall to the stone floor. The silicone cord broke free, and the egg rolled away, under her chair. There was no way she could bend down to retrieve it. Her intense behavior had not gone unnoticed by Edna Draper, who was stood next to her. "I take it you like that hymn a lot? You were really giving it your all!" "Yeah," Jenna said, getting her breath back. "I've been practicing so hard!" Meanwhile, the egg was still rolling along the church floor. It came to a stop by the side of the organ stool. "Hello, what do we have here?" Gordon said to himself. When the vicar took to the pulpit again, the organist discreetly bent down and picked up the egg. It was warm, wet and glistening with clear goo. He knew at once what it was. "Now which naughty little Easter Bunny does this egg belong to? I think I can guess." He gave it a sniff, wiped it with a tissue and placed it in his jacket pocket. Looking over to the choir, he noticed Jenna fidgeting on her chair. "I knew it! She was getting herself off when I was conducting the choir!" The Easter Sunday service drew to a close. Reverend Morris ended it with some uplifting words. "Brothers and Sisters! Before we all head off to the church hall for tea, coffee and chocolate eggs, let me ask you one more time. Are you filled with hope today? Then go out and take it with you! This is the best news you'll ever be able to give anyone. That He loves you enough to rise again, to give you hope. And no power on earth can stop us if that is the message we're bringing to people this Easter. Amen!" Based on a post by Blacksheep, for Literotica.

Funnily enough, here in “sunny” Florida, we are supposed to be in our “dry season”. I believe it has rained daily for the last 10 days. So much for our “dry season!” The Music Authority Podcast...listen, like, comment, download, share, repeat…heard daily on Podchaser, Deezer, Amazon Music, Audible, Listen Notes, Mixcloud, Player FM, Tune In, Podcast Addict, Cast Box, Radio Public, Pocket Cast, APPLE iTunes, and direct for the source distribution site: *Podcast - https://themusicauthority.transistor.fm/  AND NOW there is a website! TheMusicAuthority.comThe Music Authority Podcast! Special Recorded Network Shows, too! Different than my daily show! Seeing that I'm gone from FB now…Follow me on “X” Jim Prell@TMusicAuthority*Radio Candy Radio Monday Wednesday, & Friday 7PM ET, 4PM PT*Rockin' The KOR Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday at 7PM UK time, 2PM ET, 11AM PT  www.koradio.rocks*Pop Radio UK Friday, Saturday, & Sunday 6PM UK, 1PM ET, 10AM PT! *The Sole Of Indie https://soleofindie.rocks/ Monday Through Friday 6-7PM EST!*AltPhillie.Rocks Sunday, Thursday, & Saturday At 11:00AM ET!January 24, 2025, Friday, hour one…@Orbis 2.0 - TMA SHOW OPEN THEME@Ellinor Springstrike & @Gareth Nugent - The Look-Level Up {Single 4.29.24}@Ella-Marie - Cat Eyes [Single 9.2.24]@Elizabeth Freeborn - Emerald {Single 6.24.24}@Elisabeth Grey - Don't Stop The Dancing {Single 2.5.24}@Pseudonym - Photograph [Before The Monsters Came] (koolkatmusik.com)@Elena Rogers - I Feel Alive {Single 3.18.24} [Prelude To Whatever]@Eddie Mole - Beautiful Song {Single 12.2.24}@Eddie Japan with @Greg Hawks - I Can't Wait {Single 4.29.24} [Pop Fiction] (@Rum Bar Records)@Ed Cosens - Doghouse {Single 1.2.24}@Earth Quake - Everywhere I Go {Single 6.3.24} (@Code 213 Records)@Early Autumn Station - Yellow Gummy Bears {Single 5.6.24}@It's Karma It's Cool - She Slept With The Radio On [Homesick For Our Future Destinations] (koolkatmusik.com)@Dylan Tori - Dance A Little More {Single 7.29.24}@Duncan MacPherson – Here We Are {Single 8.5.24}@Duck & Cover – Girl From Nowhere {Single 7.15.24} (@Rum Bar Records)

Funnily enough, I'm too lazy to write a description. Yes, this is all about how I want to spend the year working on some things, but right now, I just want to go to sleep. Maybe it will start tomorrow?

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit zeteo.comIf you've followed Mehdi's career, you know he's interviewed heads of state, members of Congress, homicidal mercenaries, and even terrorists. But this may be Mehdi's most intimidating guest yet — Huda Kattan — the superstar beauty influencer, activist, reality TV show host, and founder and CEO of international beauty brand 'Huda Beauty'. Funnily enough, Huda was also nervous to sit down with one of her personal role models.Huda opens up to Mehdi about growing up in Tennessee and the moment she realized that US media is oftentimes propaganda: “That was the moment where I was like, holy shit, we are being lied to. We're being told stories for the sake of specific agendas.” They also talk about the launch of 'Huda Beauty', the lack of diversity in the beauty industry, celebrities who have stayed silent on Gaza, and Huda's activism on Gaza and Palestine. “You don't want people who support genocide to use your products?” Mehdi asks. “Absolutely not. You're not allowed.” Huda replies. Subscribe at Zeteo.com to watch the full interview.SUBSCRIBE TO ZETEO TO SUPPORT INDEPENDENT AND UNFILTERED JOURNALISM: https://zeteo.com/subscribeWATCH, LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE TO ‘WE'RE NOT KIDDING' ON SUBSTACK: https://zeteo.com/s/were-not-kidding-with-mehdi-and-friendsFIND ZETEO:Twitter: https://twitter.com/zeteo_newsInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/zeteonewsTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@zeteonewsFIND MEHDI:Substack: https://substack.com/@mehdirhasanTwitter: https://twitter.com/@mehdirhasanInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/@mehdirhasanTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@mehdirhasanFIND HUDA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/huda/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@huda?lang=enCREDITS:Hosted by: Mehdi HasanGuest Host: Huda KattanExecutive Producer: Kiran AlviSenior Producer and Editor: Frank CappelloMusic: Andy ClausenDesign: Alicia TatoneMix Engineer: Valentino RiveraTitle Animation: Ehsaan Mesghali

Id often hear about this man during my stint in Berlin in the mid 2000s. Mostly that he had an amazing live show... who was this man? There was a sense in my mind that he was a gothic mystery, a dark figure that coaxed mystical melodies from the tarot and such but it seems like he's a sensitive and passionate follower of his own North Star.  His upbringing in Denmark really captured my imagination. Partly just reflecting on the simpler times and remembering my own childhood in the sticks and how music was such an elixir to a world with a lot less demands on the modern, dwindling attention. T he power of radio to educate and mix it up, when things were all jumbled together a little would be one example of the way it was different then. We get into that and I think it's actually a huge deal. I would argue it's the reason we have the music of Trentemøller at all.  Anyway I'm running into a pool of the past here. I suppose sometimes that's what a chat will do. Funnily enough I find his music to be exploring contrasts, paradoxes, and themes of reminiscence without nostalgia. Quite a challenge! There's something familiar to the tones (especially the chorus which is a major sonic stamp on this music. It turns out Anders owns over 50 chorus pedals!!! I mean WHAT?) but the drums are fresh and the sound is vital in a refreshing way. Dare I say it almost feels light. Much lighter than I'd imagined it being. Also he's a song writer first and foremost and although the tone palette is crucial, the song always ends up being the main event and I tip my hat to the man for this. It's not easy! Lovely stuff. Hope you enjoy our rambles. ____ Music for EP133 comes from Clocks and Barometers. The music you hear peppered through the episode is from a record called “learning through investigation” Clocks and Barometers is a collaborative project between Dive Reflex Service and Lupo which began in the summer of 2023. Excellent stuff which I shall not try to describe seeing as they kindly provided me with a link so you can jolly well go and have a listen!! HERE is the link

 Easter at St. Michael's: Part 2Gordon is reunited with an old crush.Based on a post by Blacksheep, in 2 parts. Listen to the ► Podcast at Steamy Stories. The monthly Mother's Union meeting was taking place at Gladys Wilcox's bungalow. There was much to discuss, mainly tomorrow's Easter Sunday service. However the main topic of conversation was the vicar's phallus."He was just standing there, starkers! Swinging, I tell you, swinging. It was like a boa constrictor poking out of a tree. I didn't know where to look!" Mrs. Harris exclaimed."Wish I could've been there," Mrs. Wilcox replied."Really, Gladys!""Well at our age there's not much opportunity for those sorts of thrills is there?" She grinned and glanced at Norman the churchwarden, who said nothing and awkwardly sipped his coffee. Being the only man there, he felt uncomfortable sitting through this, but Mrs. Wilcox had insisted he attend."How come he was naked?" Another woman asked."Said he'd been having a shower, but I know a lie when I see one. If you ask me, him and his wife had been; you know;""Having a quickie?" Mrs. Wilcox replied. Norman almost choked on his coffee, remembering that 21st birthday surprise the vicar had arranged for Jenna in the church, sixteen months ago."Yes, exactly!""You know something, Maureen, I was chatting to Maud Finch, on the bus the other day. Now she lives on Haddock Street, in one of those council houses that overlook the railway line. She tells me that groups of drunk young men are forever going up on that opposite embankment and mooning at passing trains.""Has she made a complaint?""Why on earth would she want to do that?" Mrs. Wilcox spluttered. "I said to her, I'll call round later this week and I'll bring a pair of binoculars!"Over on the other side of town, at 64 Stovepipe Avenue, Gordon Leesmith yawned and sat up in bed. He squinted at the alarm clock. It was ten thirty."Oh Gord, you lazy bugger," he said to himself, stretching his arms. He hadn't intended on having such a long lie-in. Myah had gone to work hours ago. She'd been working Saturdays the past few weeks, covering for Kate, a work colleague who was recovering from major abdominal surgery.Gordon staggered out of bed and scratched his belly as he peered out of the window. The weather seemed reasonable today. The past week had seen some very unsettled conditions, with sunny spells and frequent heavy showers, so typical of British springtime."I'd better get a move on. I promised Myah I'd cook tonight and there's not a bite of food in the house." Gordon didn't relish the prospect of going to the supermarket during the Easter weekend. Every shop was crammed. Besides, he wanted to head to the church and spend an hour practicing on the organ ready for tomorrow's special service. He'd have the church all to himself for once. He relished this temporary period of calm. Easter was always busy for the organist. As well as his full-time job repairing organs, he'd had to play the Wednesday Eucharist, the Maundy Thursday service, yesterday's Good Friday evening service and on Sunday, it was the big one. At least he could rest his fingers on Monday's bank holiday."Can't wait to jet off next month," he muttered, as he hurriedly dressed himself and brewed a cup of tea. He'd booked a week's holiday in Tenerife for himself and Myah. Their first holiday together and they were really looking forward to it. Gordon wasn't one for culture, eco-tourism or trailing round ancient ruins. Sun, sea and all-inclusive hotels were his idea of paradise. Myah had never been to the Canary Islands. He hoped she wouldn't be too bored just lounging on the beach or by the pool all day. He'd booked an adults-only hotel, the four star Golden Vista in Playa de las Americas. It had excellent reviews on TripAdvisor.Meanwhile, at the vicarage;Reverend Morris was in turmoil. "Maureen Harris has got a right mouth on her. Who needs social media when you've got a pensioner who's Britain's answer to Hedda Hopper?""Simon, you're worrying unnecessarily," Jenna said. "You've not done anything wrong. You were in your own home and you didn't know she was there.""Oh, I don't know. I'm the parish vicar and I just accidentally exposed myself in front of an elderly member of my congregation. Can't say I'm too thrilled about that.""Maureen shouldn't have walked in. She was in the wrong. Said she knocked, but when nobody answered, she should've given up and gone.""And I should've locked the front door! I bet she's told everyone at the Mother's Union that she saw me nude!"Jenna shrugged. "So, she saw your cock. I bet many other ladies wish they could've been so lucky!"Gordon parked up on the Tesco Express car park. As expected, the place was heaving with people rushing to get last-minute groceries. Tubs of cut-price garden fence paint were piled up outside the store. As he was looking at these, he heard someone call his name."Gordon? Gordon Leesmith. Is it you?"He spun round in surprise. A tall, slim woman, late sixties at a guess, and with silvery hair cut into a sleek bob, was stood next to him. She was dressed in a long, pale grey coat with fur-lined collar. Underneath, a skirt or dress of some sort, black tights and ankle boots."Uh, hello? Yes, I'm Gordon Leesmith. Who are you?"The woman chuckled. "Oh dear. I really have changed haven't I? You don't remember me, do you?"Gordon blinked as he studied her face carefully, then he let out a gasp."Harriet; Harriet Fairfax?""Guilty!"Gordon was too stunned to speak at first, but he quickly composed himself. After so many years, here was the woman he'd lost his virginity to, way back one summer night in 1985, when he was just eighteen. His former piano teacher!"Oh God! I can't believe it! I; I, it's so wonderful to see you again! I always wondered what happened to you, Harriet. The last time we met was in 1988, when I'd just got my ARCO diploma. After that, you; well, vanished.""That's a long story. Come, let's go and have a coffee. We've both got a lot to catch up on. I'm only here until Tuesday, then I'm flying back home.""You live abroad?""I emigrated to Australia when I got married.""Blimey. I think I need more than a coffee. I know a good place." He took her arm in his and they headed across the road."You certainly have grown in confidence," Harriet smiled. "I always knew you would."At a small pub in the town center, Gordon sipped an overpriced beer and listened intently as Harriet filled him in on her life story. He felt a lump in his throat as she told him of her marriage to Graham, an Australian musician she'd met shortly after Gordon's fateful night in Blackpool Tower."I suppose my head was well and truly turned. I was blinded by love. You have to remember back then in the Eighties, a single woman, mid-thirties and childless, well I was seen as being left on the shelf. Graham seemed the perfect man; and as I was never close to my parents, I figured here was my one chance to have a new start. New country, new job. So we settled in Perth. I started work as a music teacher. Loved it. Work was bliss. Unfortunately, marriage to Graham was anything but.""Was he unfaithful?" Gordon asked."No. I would've preferred it if he was. He was abusive. It's because of him that I have partial hearing in my right ear. The beatings got so bad; he beat me black and blue. Even when I was pregnant."Tears pricked Gordon's eyes. "Bastard. Oh God, Harriet. I'm so sorry. Tell me you managed to leave him?""Didn't need to. He took it upon himself to commit suicide one evening. I came back from work and found him swinging in the garage. August 11th, 1997. What a day to remember, eh? He'd always been a heavy drinker. I found out he'd run up massive debts, got himself fired.""Dear God. How did you cope?""Well friends and neighbors rallied round. I'm lucky. I'm one of those people who makes friends easily. I had a good support network. Besides, I had to stay strong, for the sake of my boys, Daniel and Ryan; only got Ryan now."She paused and Gordon wondered whether he should press her further."Daniel; died. He was twelve. A total sweetheart. You see, he was born with Down's Syndrome. Graham never coped with it. He was the loveliest, most gentle boy. Everyone who met him just adored his sunny nature. He loved animals and music. But Graham ignored him. Ryan came along three years later. He's able-bodied. Actually that's why I'm over here. I've been visiting Ryan. He's thirty now. Works as a concert pianist. I'm so proud of him. He's fiercely independent. Doesn't need me fussing over him, but we're still close. This is the last time I'll be flying here. I can't handle these long haul flights any more, now that I'm almost seventy-four. Never did like flying. He'll be the one flying over to see me next time.""You look amazing," Gordon quickly blurted out, wiping his eyes."Heh, thanks.""I'm so sorry you've had to endure all that, Harriet," Gordon sniffed, placing his hand on hers."Thanks for being a good listener. Hey and I'm a survivor. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, right?""So; you didn't re-marry?""Nah. After Graham died, I focused on being a mum. I got used to being single. Although ten years ago, I met Ray. He's widowed like me and a few years older. He's a total gentleman, bless him. I can't say he excites me sexually. I hope this doesn't sound too mean; he's a bit boring, but at my age, I'm past all that. It's just nice to have someone who's dependable and kind."Gordon nodded. Looking at Harriet, he thought she still looked very attractive. She'd aged well, despite the heartache she'd gone through. A surge of excitement rushed through him."Anyways Gordon, I've prattled on about myself for too long! Tell me what you've been up to all these years!"Without wanting to bore her, Gordon gave a rundown of his life. From his marriage to Marjorie, to her cheating on him and then divorcing him, to becoming organist and choirmaster at St Michael's church, to meeting Myah. He chose to omit any mention of Jenna, the stunning vicar's wife who he'd bedded countless times before Myah arrived on the scene."She's very attractive," Harriet said as Gordon showed her a photo on his smartphone. "You look so happy together. Do you'll think you'll have children in future?""It's a possibility, given that she's much younger than me. Marjorie was adamant she never wanted children. I respected that. I confess I've never given much thought to becoming a dad. But if Myah does want to become a mum, then I'll be up for it.""About the age gap. It's a large one. Has that presented any problems?""It did at first. Her parents were furious. Some hurtful things were said, but her mother and I eventually came to an understanding. Most people at church have been okay but there were a couple of exceptions. It upset me when my cousin Barry called me a "borderline nonce." He was only joking, but it hurt. She'll be twenty in July. Myah was the one who pursued me, not the other way round;""Perhaps Barry was jealous of you. But yes, that was a crass thing to say. Well Gordon, there's one thing I want to experience before I head back Down Under."His eyes widened. "Really? What's that?""I want to see and hear you play a pipe organ! You showed such skill and talent way back in 1985;" she winked at him and he felt that surge of excitement again."Funnily enough, I was planning to have a practice at church today. Tomorrow's a big day, being Easter Sunday. We've got two choirs singing. Care to join me on a trip to St Michael's? It's only a five minute walk from here."The Mother's Union meeting was drawing to a close, but poor Norman could bear it no longer. Mrs. Wilcox was still questioning Mrs. Harris on a certain part of the vicar's anatomy."Ladies, please excuse me; I really need to; er, relieve myself. Thank you for your company and I'll see you at church tomorrow!""Oh yes, take care Norman!" they replied, oblivious to his embarrassment."That's a fine lodger you've got yourself, Gladys. Now I tend to view men as nothing more than useless articles, but he is a true Christian.""Oh he truly is, Maureen. We have such wonderful times together. He was very easy to train!"At St Michael's church, Gordon gave Harriet a quick tour, before leading her to the organ."This is a beautiful church," she said. "That's one thing I miss about living in Australia. All of the churches there are recent by comparison. There isn't the history. Oh there are some lovely ones, but it's not the same. This one goes back to medieval times. I love old buildings.""Yes, it's a nice church. Good community here too. I get on so well with the vicar. Reverend Morris is a good egg. His sermons are rather tedious, but nobody's perfect, eh?" He sat on the organ stool. "Here she is! What do you think?""She's a beauty, Gordon. Three manuals, and the pipework is incredible. A large organ for such a small church.""Aye, she's a grand old lass. I gave her a complete overhaul in January. Replaced some of the big flue pipes. Now she sounds better than ever." He switched on the lamp above the manuals."Very handy having an organist who can fix organs as well as play them. That's a very specialized job, isn't it?""Pretty much. Right; what would you like me to play?"Harriet removed her thick coat and slid onto the stool next to him."Hmm. It's an overplayed piece of music, but I've always liked The Entertainer. You played that for me when you used to come for lessons, remember?""Ah yes. I remember!"As he began to play, Harriet glanced at her former student, no longer a gauche, skinny teenager but a stocky, fifty-six year old man, with silver hair. He had a paunch, but it suited him. He'd grown into his looks and actually looked better now than when he was eighteen. She ran a finger across her chin, and carefully considered her next move. He truly had become a very gifted organist.Gordon was halfway through playing, when a hand on his thigh made him play a wrong note. He stopped and looked down."Umm;""No-one must find out about this." Harriet whispered."Well Myah's at work; and I don't think Ray can see what we're up to from the other side of the world;" Gordon stammered. He couldn't believe history was repeating itself."An old girl like me can still get all hot and bothered seeing an attractive younger man," she teased. Her thigh was pressing against his and his cock was starting to respond."Uh; Harriet," Gordon mumbled, and once again he was transported back to 1985, and was that shy, awkward teenager again. "I; just want you to know. You were my first major crush. Well; I'd fancied other girls, but you; well you just; did it for me.""I'm so glad to hear you say that, Gordon. You were the only student I ever felt attracted to. Truth is, at the time, I was feeling rather sorry for myself and unattractive. When I found out you had a crush on me, it was an incredible turn-on. To be desired by a much-younger man. I knew the whole time.""Guess I wasn't that good at being discreet," Gordon replied.

Well, apparently last weeks win wasnt enough to convince the coaches to stick with an attacking gameplan. Funnily enough, we lost. Very disappointing against the Bombers, join Feenix and Macca as we break it all down Don't forget, you can chat LIVE with us on our Discord Server at discord.gg/TajrHvZ

Just days away from Giving Thanks Day. Funnily enough, the next day, sure seems people are greedy and cruel to one another…isn't it ironic? The Music Authority Podcast...listen, like, comment, download, share, repeat…heard daily on Podchaser, Deezer, Amazon Music, Audible, Listen Notes, Mixcloud, Player FM, Tune In, Podcast Addict, Cast Box, Radio Public, Pocket Cast, APPLE iTunes, and direct for the source distribution site: *Podcast - https://themusicauthority.transistor.fm/  AND NOW there is a website! TheMusicAuthority.comThe Music Authority Podcast! Special Recorded Network Shows, too! Different than my daily show! Seeing that I'm gone from FB now…Follow me on “X” Jim Prell@TMusicAuthority*Radio Candy Radio Monday Wednesday, & Friday 7PM ET, 4PM PT*Rockin' The KOR Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday at 7PM UK time, 2PM ET, 11AM PT  www.koradio.rocks*Pop Radio UK Friday, Saturday, & Sunday 6PM UK, 1PM ET, 10AM PT! *The Sole Of Indie https://soleofindie.rocks/ Monday Through Friday 6-7PM EST!*AltPhillie.Rocks Sunday, Thursday, & Saturday At 11:00AM ET!November 26, 2024, Tuesday, let the day begin…@Orbis 2.0 - TMA SHOW OPEN THEME@Micah Gilbert - Ordinary Day [Wheel]@Tony Marsico And The Ugly Thingz - Turn On Your Love Light [No Future] (@Rum Bar Records)@Reverend Genes - It's Not Enough [Time - EP]@Mardi Gras - After The Fire [Sandcastle]@The Toms - You Shot Me Out of Your Canon [Tomplicated] (@Futureman Records)@Assistant - Jil Is Fading (McCookerybook mix) [Certain Memories] (@Subjangle)@Night Court - Never Say I Told Ya So [Hit Machine]@The Boltons - Don't Leave [Fading Estate - EP] (@Subjangle)@Sorry Monks - When The Song Is Over [Recipe] (@Subjangle)@The Weeklings - April's Fool [In Their Own Write-The Weeklings Live] (@Jem Records)@Rebekkah The Band - Proper Love Song [Dissonance]@Owen Marchildon - Weather Gurl [Dangling Towards Heavy Sunlight]@Mythical Motors - Take A Trip [Upside Down World] (@Subjangle)@Nothing But Sunshine - Honey [Colour In A Nightmare]@John Howard - Empty Rooms [Dreaming I Am Waking]@20/20 - Springtime Love Song [Back To California] (@Big Stir Records)@The Happy Somethings - December (Happy solo) [Don't Mention It!]@Kitty May - Take Me Back [Something Missing]

In many ways, electric vehicles today are where mobile phones were in the early 2000s. It's December 2002. Mobile phones have entered the market, but the average Indian is still pretty sceptical. Cell phone connections are patchy and more importantly expensive. Devices themselves were unwieldy, limited and again…expensive. Basic services like sending a text, or a voice mail, or call waiting were considered ‘add-on services' and they needed to be purchased separately. So most people thought it just wasn't worth the investment. That was until Reliance came in and changed everything. Back then, Mukesh Ambani launched Infocomm. The idea was to make telephone calls in India as cheap as sending a postcard. And it worked. Slowly, as costs started to drop, more and more people saw sense in adopting mobile phones, and eventually abandoning landlines altogether.This episode is by no means a history lesson. But that context was important. Because India is almost exactly where it was back then. Except, the device they are on the fence about is now electric vehicles. And the company in question now is JSW MG Motor. Funnily enough, the solutions that JSW is coming up with are eerily similar to the Reliance strategy back then. It's biggest proposition? A subscription plan for your EV battery.Tune in. Daybreak is now on WhatsApp at +918971108379. Text us and tell us what you thought of the episode!Daybreak is produced from the newsroom of The Ken, India's first subscriber-only business news platform. Subscribe for more exclusive, deeply-reported, and analytical business stories.

Good old Midday Prayer with the name which becomes a little awkward in English. Sext means the sixth hour after sunrise, which is midday or 12 noon.Funnily enough, the English word Noon comes from the next hour, None, referring to the Ninth Hour. This was the hour at which monks would break fast, but over time it was felt to be too onerous to wait that long, so they started breaking fast at the Sixth hour, but the name None carried across and now we have Noon being the middle of the day.As always, you can find the booklets at https://littleoffice.brandt.id.au/#booklets Get full access to Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary at littleoffice.substack.com/subscribe

Elizabeth Gilbert is one of the most brilliant authors of our time. She authored ‘Eat, Pray, Love' which sold over 12 million copies and was then turned into a movie starring Julia Roberts. She's also written books like ‘Committed', ‘Big Magic' and ‘City of Girls'.  Elizabeth shares so many teachings around vulnerability, connectedness, living a life that is led by love,  and now  how to become ‘a relaxed woman, pushing back on the expectations of what society wants from you'.  Today we spoke about: Being an award winning writer who wrote about men and was sympathetic to the male experience, until she wrote the number 1 ‘chick-lit' book of our time. Funnily enough, the award nominations dried up. The shared experience of having everything that we are meant to ‘want' and feeling so deeply unhappy.  How Liz used to drain herself by giving her everything to relationships, and how free she now feels being emotionally autonomous  The facts about how marriage affects women: married women don't live as long as single women, they're more likely to report being depressed and anxious, they are more likely to have autoimmune conditions, more likely to be addicted to substances etc.  How all of our lives could be titled ‘not exactly what I had in mind' The complexity of falling in love with someone knowing it will hurt other people that you care about Learning about loss through grief You can find Liz's Aus and NZ tour dates You can follow Liz on Instagram  You can watch us on Youtube Find us on Instagram Join us on tiktok Or join the Facebook Discussion Group Tell your mum, tell your dad, tell your dog, tell your friend and share the love because WE LOVE LOVE! xx  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

From the RnR concerned citizen file - Brightonian Stephen J Peak reports the locals are revolting! Funnily, the locals say the same thing about him. Finey chalks up tatt #117 and Dad joke #666. Kev has the latest on the AFL, the EPL, T20 and the Cox Plate.  Musically, it is under-rated international songs and the boys unearth some unappreciated gems from The Guess Who, Todd Rundgren, The Small Faces and more. Don't miss Finey's exclusive revelation regarding his radio future.     Kevin Hillier, Mark Fine, Stephen J Peak Subscribe in iTunes!https://apple.co/2LUQuix Listen on Spotifyhttps://spoti.fi/2DdgYad Follow us on Facebook...https://bit.ly/2OOe7ag Post-production by Steve Visscher | Southern Skies Media for Howdy Partners Media | www.howdypartnersmedia.com.au/podcasts © 2024See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Honestly, I can't remember a time when I didn't set goals for myself.Whether it was building a swimming pool for my Barbie in the backyard or challenging my little sister to a staring contest - I've always been a goal-oriented person. As are most of us entrepreneurs out there.But a couple years ago, I found myself in a place where I was obsessed with achieving my goals when it came to growing my business.➡️ The truth is, this unhealthy obsession was actually hindering my success. Which is exactly why today's podcast episode is all about Why “Letting Go” Is the Key to Achieving Your Goals Faster.Back then, I'd purposely seek out books, coaches, and social media accounts that reinforced my beliefs and anytime I read something that suggested otherwise… I was immediately tuning it out. My thoughts consisted of: Work harder. Do more. Sleep less.What I didn't realize at the time was that OVER working was just as harmful to my business as taking no action at all.Over the last two years in particular I've experienced an intentional shift in my relationship with goals and have begun to detangle my self-worth from whether or not I achieve them.Funnily enough - this has led not only to increased happiness, but to reaching more of my goals.So, how did I change the way I thought about and behaved around goals?✅ Tune in to this week's episode to learn the three key beliefs I implemented so that you can begin to grow your business with more ease, more profit, and WAY less overwhelm.Want to learn how you can generate launch-sized revenue from your online course without launching? Join me for my next free masterclass and I'll show you exactly how I made $3m in one year from selling my course on auto-pilot.. Click the link below, sign up, and I'll see you inside.https://caitlinbacher.com/new-masterclass/Let's connect on social media!Instagram: https://instagram.com/caitlinbacherFacebook: https://facebook.com/caitlinbacherTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@caitlinbacher Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

With the American showbiz website TMZ deciding to post a picture of his body - does that decision say everything about the toxic environment social media has created?In extraordinarily tragic news, the former One Direction star Liam Payne died last night aged just 31, after falling from a third floor balcony in a Buenos Aires hotel.But it's the reporting of Liam Payne's death that has shocked us most, with American entertainment site TMZ seeing fit to post a partial picture of his body alongside their article breaking the news. Camilla and Kamal ask what that decision tells about society, our need to rubberneck, and whether social media simply feeds our voyeuristic appetites? Elsewhere, the veteran Conservative MP Sir Christopher Chope has claimed he is supporting Robert Jenrick in the Tory leadership contest as Kemi Badenoch is "too preoccupied with her children". Funnily enough, Camilla was not impressed...We want to hear from you! Email us at TheDailyT@telegraph.co.uk or find us on X, Instagram and TikTok @dailytpodcastProducers: Lilian Fawcett and Georgia CoanSenior Producer: John CadiganPlanning Editor: Venetia RaineyStudio Operator: Meghan SearleVideo Editor: Luke GoodsallSocial Media Producer: Niamh WalshEditor: Camilla TomineyAdditional production by James ShieldOriginal music by Goss Studio Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Noah Hein from Latent Space University is finally launching with a free lightning course this Sunday for those new to AI Engineering. Tell a friend!Did you know there are >1,600 papers on arXiv just about prompting? Between shots, trees, chains, self-criticism, planning strategies, and all sorts of other weird names, it's hard to keep up. Luckily for us, Sander Schulhoff and team read them all and put together The Prompt Report as the ultimate prompt engineering reference, which we'll break down step-by-step in today's episode.In 2022 swyx wrote “Why “Prompt Engineering” and “Generative AI” are overhyped”; the TLDR being that if you're relying on prompts alone to build a successful products, you're ngmi. Prompt engineering moved from being a stand-alone job to a core skill for AI Engineers now. We won't repeat everything that is written in the paper, but this diagram encapsulates the state of prompting today: confusing. There are many similar terms, esoteric approaches that have doubtful impact on results, and lots of people that are just trying to create full papers around a single prompt just to get more publications out. Luckily, some of the best prompting techniques are being tuned back into the models themselves, as we've seen with o1 and Chain-of-Thought (see our OpenAI episode). Similarly, OpenAI recently announced 100% guaranteed JSON schema adherence, and Anthropic, Cohere, and Gemini all have JSON Mode (not sure if 100% guaranteed yet). No more “return JSON or my grandma is going to die” required. The next debate is human-crafted prompts vs automated approaches using frameworks like DSPy, which Sander recommended:I spent 20 hours prompt engineering for a task and DSPy beat me in 10 minutes. It's much more complex than simply writing a prompt (and I'm not sure how many people usually spend >20 hours prompt engineering one task), but if you're hitting a roadblock it might be worth checking out.Prompt Injection and JailbreaksSander and team also worked on HackAPrompt, a paper that was the outcome of an online challenge on prompt hacking techniques. They similarly created a taxonomy of prompt attacks, which is very hand if you're building products with user-facing LLM interfaces that you'd like to test:In this episode we basically break down every category and highlight the overrated and underrated techniques in each of them. If you haven't spent time following the prompting meta, this is a great episode to catchup!Full Video EpisodeLike and subscribe on YouTube!Timestamps* [00:00:00] Introductions - Intro music by Suno AI* [00:07:32] Navigating arXiv for paper evaluation* [00:12:23] Taxonomy of prompting techniques* [00:15:46] Zero-shot prompting and role prompting* [00:21:35] Few-shot prompting design advice* [00:28:55] Chain of thought and thought generation techniques* [00:34:41] Decomposition techniques in prompting* [00:37:40] Ensembling techniques in prompting* [00:44:49] Automatic prompt engineering and DSPy* [00:49:13] Prompt Injection vs Jailbreaking* [00:57:08] Multimodal prompting (audio, video)* [00:59:46] Structured output prompting* [01:04:23] Upcoming Hack-a-Prompt 2.0 projectShow Notes* Sander Schulhoff* Learn Prompting* The Prompt Report* HackAPrompt* Mine RL Competition* EMNLP Conference* Noam Brown* Jordan Boydgraver* Denis Peskov* Simon Willison* Riley Goodside* David Ha* Jeremy Nixon* Shunyu Yao* Nicholas Carlini* DreadnodeTranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO-in-Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI.Swyx [00:00:13]: Hey, and today we're in the remote studio with Sander Schulhoff, author of the Prompt Report.Sander [00:00:18]: Welcome. Thank you. Very excited to be here.Swyx [00:00:21]: Sander, I think I first chatted with you like over a year ago. What's your brief history? I went onto your website, it looks like you worked on diplomacy, which is really interesting because we've talked with Noam Brown a couple of times, and that obviously has a really interesting story in terms of prompting and agents. What's your journey into AI?Sander [00:00:40]: Yeah, I'd say it started in high school. I took my first Java class and just saw a YouTube video about something AI and started getting into it, reading. Deep learning, neural networks, all came soon thereafter. And then going into college, I got into Maryland and I emailed just like half the computer science department at random. I was like, hey, I want to do research on deep reinforcement learning because I've been experimenting with that a good bit. And over that summer, I had read the Intro to RL book and the deep reinforcement learning hands-on, so I was very excited about what deep RL could do. And a couple of people got back to me and one of them was Jordan Boydgraver, Professor Boydgraver, and he was working on diplomacy. And he said to me, this looks like it was more of a natural language processing project at the time, but it's a game, so very easily could move more into the RL realm. And I ended up working with one of his students, Denis Peskov, who's now a postdoc at Princeton. And that was really my intro to AI, NLP, deep RL research. And so from there, I worked on diplomacy for a couple of years, mostly building infrastructure for data collection and machine learning, but I always wanted to be doing it myself. So I had a number of side projects and I ended up working on the Mine RL competition, Minecraft reinforcement learning, also some people call it mineral. And that ended up being a really cool opportunity because I think like sophomore year, I knew I wanted to do some project in deep RL and I really liked Minecraft. And so I was like, let me combine these. And I was searching for some Minecraft Python library to control agents and found mineral. And I was trying to find documentation for how to build a custom environment and do all sorts of stuff. I asked in their Discord how to do this and their super responsive, very nice. And they're like, oh, you know, we don't have docs on this, but, you know, you can look around. And so I read through the whole code base and figured it out and wrote a PR and added the docs that I didn't have before. And then later I ended up joining their team for about a year. And so they maintain the library, but also run a yearly competition. That was my first foray into competitions. And I was still working on diplomacy. At some point I was working on this translation task between Dade, which is a diplomacy specific bot language and English. And I started using GPT-3 prompting it to do the translation. And that was, I think, my first intro to prompting. And I just started doing a bunch of reading about prompting. And I had an English class project where we had to write a guide on something that ended up being learn prompting. So I figured, all right, well, I'm learning about prompting anyways. You know, Chain of Thought was out at this point. There are a couple blog posts floating around, but there was no website you could go to just sort of read everything about prompting. So I made that. And it ended up getting super popular. Now continuing with it, supporting the project now after college. And then the other very interesting things, of course, are the two papers I wrote. And that is the prompt report and hack a prompt. So I saw Simon and Riley's original tweets about prompt injection go across my feed. And I put that information into the learn prompting website. And I knew, because I had some previous competition running experience, that someone was going to run a competition with prompt injection. And I waited a month, figured, you know, I'd participate in one of these that comes out. No one was doing it. So I was like, what the heck, I'll give it a shot. Just started reaching out to people. Got some people from Mila involved, some people from Maryland, and raised a good amount of sponsorship. I had no experience doing that, but just reached out to as many people as I could. And we actually ended up getting literally all the sponsors I wanted. So like OpenAI, actually, they reached out to us a couple months after I started learn prompting. And then Preamble is the company that first discovered prompt injection even before Riley. And they like responsibly disclosed it kind of internally to OpenAI. And having them on board as the largest sponsor was super exciting. And then we ran that, collected 600,000 malicious prompts, put together a paper on it, open sourced everything. And we took it to EMNLP, which is one of the top natural language processing conferences in the world. 20,000 papers were submitted to that conference, 5,000 papers were accepted. We were one of three selected as best papers at the conference, which was just massive. Super, super exciting. I got to give a talk to like a couple thousand researchers there, which was also very exciting. And I kind of carried that momentum into the next paper, which was the prompt report. It was kind of a natural extension of what I had been doing with learn prompting in the sense that we had this website bringing together all of the different prompting techniques, survey website in and of itself. So writing an actual survey, a systematic survey was the next step that we did in the prompt report. So over the course of about nine months, I led a 30 person research team with people from OpenAI, Google, Microsoft, Princeton, Stanford, Maryland, a number of other universities and companies. And we pretty much read thousands of papers on prompting and compiled it all into like a 80 page massive summary doc. And then we put it on archive and the response was amazing. We've gotten millions of views across socials. I actually put together a spreadsheet where I've been able to track about one and a half million. And I just kind of figure if I can find that many, then there's many more views out there. It's been really great. We've had people repost it and say, oh, like I'm using this paper for job interviews now to interview people to check their knowledge of prompt engineering. We've even seen misinformation about the paper. So someone like I've seen people post and be like, I wrote this paper like they claim they wrote the paper. I saw one blog post, researchers at Cornell put out massive prompt report. We didn't have any authors from Cornell. I don't even know where this stuff's coming from. And then with the hack-a-prompt paper, great reception there as well, citations from OpenAI helping to improve their prompt injection security in the instruction hierarchy. And it's been used by a number of Fortune 500 companies. We've even seen companies built entirely on it. So like a couple of YC companies even, and I look at their demos and their demos are like try to get the model to say I've been pwned. And I look at that. I'm like, I know exactly where this is coming from. So that's pretty much been my journey.Alessio [00:07:32]: Just to set the timeline, when did each of these things came out? So Learn Prompting, I think was like October 22. So that was before ChatGPT, just to give people an idea of like the timeline.Sander [00:07:44]: And so we ran hack-a-prompt in May of 2023, but the paper from EMNLP came out a number of months later. Although I think we put it on archive first. And then the prompt report came out about two months ago. So kind of a yearly cadence of releases.Swyx [00:08:05]: You've done very well. And I think you've honestly done the community a service by reading all these papers so that we don't have to, because the joke is often that, you know, what is one prompt is like then inflated into like a 10 page PDF that's posted on archive. And then you've done the reverse of compressing it into like one paragraph each of each paper.Sander [00:08:23]: So thank you for that. We saw some ridiculous stuff out there. I mean, some of these papers I was reading, I found AI generated papers on archive and I flagged them to their staff and they were like, thank you. You know, we missed these.Swyx [00:08:37]: Wait, archive takes them down? Yeah.Sander [00:08:39]: You can't post an AI generated paper there, especially if you don't say it's AI generated. But like, okay, fine.Swyx [00:08:46]: Let's get into this. Like what does AI generated mean? Right. Like if I had ChatGPT rephrase some words.Sander [00:08:51]: No. So they had ChatGPT write the entire paper. And worse, it was a survey paper of, I think, prompting. And I was looking at it. I was like, okay, great. Here's a resource that will probably be useful to us. And I'm reading it and it's making no sense. And at some point in the paper, they did say like, oh, and this was written in part, or we use, I think they're like, we use ChatGPT to generate the paragraphs. I was like, well, what other information is there other than the paragraphs? But it was very clear in reading it that it was completely AI generated. You know, there's like the AI scientist paper that came out recently where they're using AI to generate papers, but their paper itself is not AI generated. But as a matter of where to draw the line, I think if you're using AI to generate the entire paper, that's very well past the line.Swyx [00:09:41]: Right. So you're talking about Sakana AI, which is run out of Japan by David Ha and Leon, who's one of the Transformers co-authors.Sander [00:09:49]: Yeah. And just to clarify, no problems with their method.Swyx [00:09:52]: It seems like they're doing some verification. It's always like the generator-verifier two-stage approach, right? Like you generate something and as long as you verify it, at least it has some grounding in the real world. I would also shout out one of our very loyal listeners, Jeremy Nixon, who does omniscience or omniscience, which also does generated papers. I've never heard of this Prisma process that you followed. This is a common literature review process. You pull all these papers and then you filter them very studiously. Just describe why you picked this process. Is it a normal thing to do? Was it the best fit for what you wanted to do? Yeah.Sander [00:10:27]: It is a commonly used process in research when people are performing systematic literature reviews and across, I think, really all fields. And as far as why we did it, it lends a couple of things. So first of all, this enables us to really be holistic in our approach and lends credibility to our ability to say, okay, well, for the most part, we didn't miss anything important because it's like a very well-vetted, again, commonly used technique. I think it was suggested by the PI on the project. I unsurprisingly don't have experience doing systematic literature reviews for this paper. It takes so long to do, although some people, apparently there are researchers out there who just specialize in systematic literature reviews and they just spend years grinding these out. It was really helpful. And a really interesting part, what we did, we actually used AI as part of that process. So whereas usually researchers would sort of divide all the papers up among themselves and read through it, we use the prompt to read through a number of the papers to decide whether they were relevant or irrelevant. Of course, we were very careful to test the accuracy and we have all the statistics on that comparing it against human performance on evaluation in the paper. But overall, very helpful technique. I would recommend it. It does take additional time to do because there's just this sort of formal process associated with it, but I think it really helps you collect a more robust set of papers. There are actually a number of survey papers on Archive which use the word systematic. So they claim to be systematic, but they don't use any systematic literature review technique. There's other ones than Prisma, but in order to be truly systematic, you have to use one of these techniques. Awesome.Alessio [00:12:23]: Let's maybe jump into some of the content. Last April, we wrote the anatomy of autonomy, talking about agents and the parts that go into it. You kind of have the anatomy of prompts. You created this kind of like taxonomy of how prompts are constructed, roles, instructions, questions. Maybe you want to give people the super high level and then we can maybe dive into the most interesting things in each of the sections.Sander [00:12:44]: Sure. And just to clarify, this is our taxonomy of text-based techniques or just all the taxonomies we've put together in the paper?Alessio [00:12:50]: Yeah. Texts to start.Sander [00:12:51]: One of the most significant contributions of this paper is formal taxonomy of different prompting techniques. And there's a lot of different ways that you could go about taxonomizing techniques. You could say, okay, we're going to taxonomize them according to application, how they're applied, what fields they're applied in, or what things they perform well at. But the most consistent way we found to do this was taxonomizing according to problem solving strategy. And so this meant for something like chain of thought, where it's making the model output, it's reasoning, maybe you think it's reasoning, maybe not, steps. That is something called generating thought, reasoning steps. And there are actually a lot of techniques just like chain of thought. And chain of thought is not even a unique technique. There was a lot of research from before it that was very, very similar. And I think like Think Aloud or something like that was a predecessor paper, which was actually extraordinarily similar to it. They cite it in their paper, so no issues there. But then there's other things where maybe you have multiple different prompts you're using to solve the same problem, and that's like an ensemble approach. And then there's times where you have the model output something, criticize itself, and then improve its output, and that's a self-criticism approach. And then there's decomposition, zero-shot, and few-shot prompting. Zero-shot in our taxonomy is a bit of a catch-all in the sense that there's a lot of diverse prompting techniques that don't fall into the other categories and also don't use exemplars, so we kind of just put them together in zero-shot. The reason we found it useful to assemble prompts according to their problem-solving strategy is that when it comes to applications, all of these prompting techniques could be applied to any problem, so there's not really a clear differentiation there, but there is a very clear differentiation in how they solve problems. One thing that does make this a bit complex is that a lot of prompting techniques could fall into two or more overall categories. A good example being few-shot chain-of-thought prompting, obviously it's few-shot and it's also chain-of-thought, and that's thought generation. But what we did to make the visualization and the taxonomy clearer is that we chose the primary label for each prompting technique, so few-shot chain-of-thought, it is really more about chain-of-thought, and then few-shot is more of an improvement upon that. There's a variety of other prompting techniques and some hard decisions were made, I mean some of these could have fallen into like four different overall classes, but that's the way we did it and I'm quite happy with the resulting taxonomy.Swyx [00:15:46]: I guess the best way to go through this, you know, you picked out 58 techniques out of your, I don't know, 4,000 papers that you reviewed, maybe we just pick through a few of these that are special to you and discuss them a little bit. We'll just start with zero-shot, I'm just kind of going sequentially through your diagram. So in zero-shot, you had emotion prompting, role prompting, style prompting, S2A, which is I think system to attention, SIM2M, RAR, RE2 is self-ask. I've heard of self-ask the most because Ofir Press is a very big figure in our community, but what are your personal underrated picks there?Sander [00:16:21]: Let me start with my controversial picks here, actually. Emotion prompting and role prompting, in my opinion, are techniques that are not sufficiently studied in the sense that I don't actually believe they work very well for accuracy-based tasks on more modern models, so GPT-4 class models. We actually put out a tweet recently about role prompting basically saying role prompting doesn't work and we got a lot of feedback on both sides of the issue and we clarified our position in a blog post and basically our position, my position in particular, is that role prompting is useful for text generation tasks, so styling text saying, oh, speak like a pirate, very useful, it does the job. For accuracy-based tasks like MMLU, you're trying to solve a math problem and maybe you tell the AI that it's a math professor and you expect it to have improved performance. I really don't think that works. I'm quite certain that doesn't work on more modern transformers. I think it might have worked on older ones like GPT-3. I know that from anecdotal experience, but also we ran a mini-study as part of the prompt report. It's actually not in there now, but I hope to include it in the next version where we test a bunch of role prompts on MMLU. In particular, I designed a genius prompt, it's like you're a Harvard-educated math professor and you're incredible at solving problems, and then an idiot prompt, which is like you are terrible at math, you can't do basic addition, you can never do anything right, and we ran these on, I think, a couple thousand MMLU questions. The idiot prompt outperformed the genius prompt. I mean, what do you do with that? And all the other prompts were, I think, somewhere in the middle. If I remember correctly, the genius prompt might have been at the bottom, actually, of the list. And the other ones are sort of random roles like a teacher or a businessman. So, there's a couple studies out there which use role prompting and accuracy-based tasks, and one of them has this chart that shows the performance of all these different role prompts, but the difference in accuracy is like a hundredth of a percent. And so I don't think they compute statistical significance there, so it's very hard to tell what the reality is with these prompting techniques. And I think it's a similar thing with emotion prompting and stuff like, I'll tip you $10 if you get this right, or even like, I'll kill my family if you don't get this right. There are a lot of posts about that on Twitter, and the initial posts are super hyped up. I mean, it is reasonably exciting to be able to say, no, it's very exciting to be able to say, look, I found this strange model behavior, and here's how it works for me. I doubt that a lot of these would actually work if they were properly benchmarked.Alessio [00:19:11]: The meta's not to say you're an idiot, it's just to not put anything, basically.Sander [00:19:15]: I guess I do, my toolbox is mainly few-shot, chain of thought, and include very good information about your problem. I try not to say the word context because it's super overloaded, you know, you have like the context length, context window, really all these different meanings of context. Yeah.Swyx [00:19:32]: Regarding roles, I do think that, for one thing, we do have roles which kind of reified into the API of OpenAI and Thopic and all that, right? So now we have like system, assistant, user.Sander [00:19:43]: Oh, sorry. That's not what I meant by roles. Yeah, I agree.Swyx [00:19:46]: I'm just shouting that out because obviously that is also named a role. I do think that one thing is useful in terms of like sort of multi-agent approaches and chain of thought. The analogy for those people who are familiar with this is sort of the Edward de Bono six thinking hats approach. Like you put on a different thinking hat and you look at the same problem from different angles, you generate more insight. That is still kind of useful for improving some performance. Maybe not MLU because MLU is a test of knowledge, but some kind of reasoning approach that might be still useful too. I'll call out two recent papers which people might want to look into, which is a Salesforce yesterday released a paper called Diversity Empowered Intelligence, which is a, I think a shot at the bow for scale AI. So their approach of DEI is a sort of agent approach that solves three bench scores really, really well. I thought that was like really interesting as sort of an agent strategy. And then the other one that had some attention recently is Tencent AI Lab put out a synthetic data paper with a billion personas. So that's a billion roles generating different synthetic data from different perspective. And that was useful for their fine tuning. So just explorations in roles continue, but yeah, maybe, maybe standard prompting, like it's actually declined over time.Sander [00:21:00]: Sure. Here's another one actually. This is done by a co-author on both the prompt report and hack a prompt, and he analyzes an ensemble approach where he has models prompted with different roles and ask them to solve the same question. And then basically takes the majority response. One of them is a rag and able agent, internet search agent, but the idea of having different roles for the different agents is still around. Just to reiterate, my position is solely accuracy focused on modern models.Alessio [00:21:35]: I think most people maybe already get the few shot things. I think you've done a great job at grouping the types of mistakes that people make. So the quantity, the ordering, the distribution, maybe just run through people, what are like the most impactful. And there's also like a lot of good stuff in there about if a lot of the training data has, for example, Q semi-colon and then a semi-colon, it's better to put it that way versus if the training data is a different format, it's better to do it. Maybe run people through that. And then how do they figure out what's in the training data and how to best prompt these things? What's a good way to benchmark that?Sander [00:22:09]: All right. Basically we read a bunch of papers and assembled six pieces of design advice about creating few shot prompts. One of my favorite is the ordering one. So how you order your exemplars in the prompt is super important. And we've seen this move accuracy from like 0% to 90%, like zero to state of the art on some tasks, which is just ridiculous. And I expect this to change over time in the sense that models should get robust to the order of few shot exemplars. But it's still something to absolutely keep in mind when you're designing prompts. And so that means trying out different orders, making sure you have a random order of exemplars for the most part, because if you have something like all your negative examples first and then all your positive examples, the model might read into that too much and be like, okay, I just saw a ton of positive examples. So the next one is just probably positive. And there's other biases that you can accidentally generate. I guess you talked about the format. So let me talk about that as well. So how you are formatting your exemplars, whether that's Q colon, A colon, or just input colon output, there's a lot of different ways of doing it. And we recommend sticking to common formats as LLMs have likely seen them the most and are most comfortable with them. Basically, what that means is that they're sort of more stable when using those formats and will have hopefully better results. And as far as how to figure out what these common formats are, you can just sort of look at research papers. I mean, look at our paper. We mentioned a couple. And for longer form tasks, we don't cover them in this paper, but I think there are a couple common formats out there. But if you're looking to actually find it in a data set, like find the common exemplar formatting, there's something called prompt mining, which is a technique for finding this. And basically, you search through the data set, you find the most common strings of input output or QA or question answer, whatever they would be. And then you just select that as the one you use. This is not like a super usable strategy for the most part in the sense that you can't get access to ChachiBT's training data set. But I think the lesson here is use a format that's consistently used by other people and that is known to work. Yeah.Swyx [00:24:40]: Being in distribution at least keeps you within the bounds of what it was trained for. So I will offer a personal experience here. I spend a lot of time doing example, few-shot prompting and tweaking for my AI newsletter, which goes out every single day. And I see a lot of failures. I don't really have a good playground to improve them. Actually, I wonder if you have a good few-shot example playground tool to recommend. You have six things. Example of quality, ordering, distribution, quantity, format, and similarity. I will say quantity. I guess quality is an example. I have the unique problem, and maybe you can help me with this, of my exemplars leaking into the output, which I actually don't want. I didn't see an example of a mitigation step of this in your report, but I think this is tightly related to quantity. So quantity, if you only give one example, it might repeat that back to you. So if you give two examples, like I used to always have this rule of every example must come in pairs. A good example, bad example, good example, bad example. And I did that. Then it just started repeating back my examples to me in the output. So I'll just let you riff. What do you do when people run into this?Sander [00:25:56]: First of all, in-distribution is definitely a better term than what I used before, so thank you for that. And you're right, we don't cover that problem in the problem report. I actually didn't really know about that problem until afterwards when I put out a tweet. I was saying, what are your commonly used formats for few-shot prompting? And one of the responses was a format that included instructions that said, do not repeat any of the examples I gave you. And I guess that is a straightforward solution that might some... No, it doesn't work. Oh, it doesn't work. That is tough. I guess I haven't really had this problem. It's just probably a matter of the tasks I've been working on. So one thing about showing good examples, bad examples, there are a number of papers which have found that the label of the exemplar doesn't really matter, and the model reads the exemplars and cares more about structure than label. You could say we have like a... We're doing few-shot prompting for binary classification. Super simple problem, it's just like, I like pears, positive. I hate people, negative. And then one of the exemplars is incorrect. I started saying exemplars, by the way, which is rather unfortunate. So let's say one of our exemplars is incorrect, and we say like, I like apples, negative, and like colon negative. Well, that won't affect the performance of the model all that much, because the main thing it takes away from the few-shot prompt is the structure of the output rather than the content of the output. That being said, it will reduce performance to some extent, us making that mistake, or me making that mistake. And I still do think that the content is important, it's just apparently not as important as the structure. Got it.Swyx [00:27:49]: Yeah, makes sense. I actually might tweak my approach based on that, because I was trying to give bad examples of do not do this, and it still does it, and maybe that doesn't work. So anyway, I wanted to give one offering as well, which is some sites. So for some of my prompts, I went from few-shot back to zero-shot, and I just provided generic templates, like fill in the blanks, and then kind of curly braces, like the thing you want, that's it. No other exemplars, just a template, and that actually works a lot better. So few-shot is not necessarily better than zero-shot, which is counterintuitive, because you're working harder.Alessio [00:28:25]: After that, now we start to get into the funky stuff. I think the zero-shot, few-shot, everybody can kind of grasp. Then once you get to thought generation, people start to think, what is going on here? So I think everybody, well, not everybody, but people that were tweaking with these things early on saw the take a deep breath, and things step-by-step, and all these different techniques that the people had. But then I was reading the report, and it's like a million things, it's like uncertainty routed, CO2 prompting, I'm like, what is that?Swyx [00:28:53]: That's a DeepMind one, that's from Google.Alessio [00:28:55]: So what should people know, what's the basic chain of thought, and then what's the most extreme weird thing, and what people should actually use, versus what's more like a paper prompt?Sander [00:29:05]: Yeah. This is where you get very heavily into what you were saying before, you have like a 10-page paper written about a single new prompt. And so that's going to be something like thread of thought, where what they have is an augmented chain of thought prompt. So instead of let's think step-by-step, it's like, let's plan and solve this complex problem. It's a bit long.Swyx [00:29:31]: To get to the right answer. Yes.Sander [00:29:33]: And they have like an 8 or 10 pager covering the various analyses of that new prompt. And the fact that exists as a paper is interesting to me. It was actually useful for us when we were doing our benchmarking later on, because we could test out a couple of different variants of chain of thought, and be able to say more robustly, okay, chain of thought in general performs this well on the given benchmark. But it does definitely get confusing when you have all these new techniques coming out. And like us as paper readers, like what we really want to hear is, this is just chain of thought, but with a different prompt. And then let's see, most complicated one. Yeah. Uncertainty routed is somewhat complicated, wouldn't want to implement that one. Complexity based, somewhat complicated, but also a nice technique. So the idea there is that reasoning paths, which are longer, are likely to be better. Simple idea, decently easy to implement. You could do something like you sample a bunch of chain of thoughts, and then just select the top few and ensemble from those. But overall, there are a good amount of variations on chain of thought. Autocot is a good one. We actually ended up, we put it in here, but we made our own prompting technique over the course of this paper. How should I call it? Like auto-dicot. I had a dataset, and I had a bunch of exemplars, inputs and outputs, but I didn't have chains of thought associated with them. And it was in a domain where I was not an expert. And in fact, this dataset, there are about three people in the world who are qualified to label it. So we had their labels, and I wasn't confident in my ability to generate good chains of thought manually. And I also couldn't get them to do it just because they're so busy. So what I did was I told chat GPT or GPT-4, here's the input, solve this. Let's go step by step. And it would generate a chain of thought output. And if it got it correct, so it would generate a chain of thought and an answer. And if it got it correct, I'd be like, okay, good, just going to keep that, store it to use as a exemplar for a few-shot chain of thought prompting later. If it got it wrong, I would show it its wrong answer and that sort of chat history and say, rewrite your reasoning to be opposite of what it was. So I tried that. And then I also tried more simply saying like, this is not the case because this following reasoning is not true. So I tried a couple of different things there, but the idea was that you can automatically generate chain of thought reasoning, even if it gets it wrong.Alessio [00:32:31]: Have you seen any difference with the newer models? I found when I use Sonnet 3.5, a lot of times it does chain of thought on its own without having to ask two things step by step. How do you think about these prompting strategies kind of like getting outdated over time?Sander [00:32:45]: I thought chain of thought would be gone by now. I really did. I still think it should be gone. I don't know why it's not gone. Pretty much as soon as I read that paper, I knew that they were going to tune models to automatically generate chains of thought. But the fact of the matter is that models sometimes won't. I remember I did a lot of experiments with GPT-4, and especially when you look at it at scale. So I'll run thousands of prompts against it through the API. And I'll see every one in a hundred, every one in a thousand outputs no reasoning whatsoever. And I need it to output reasoning. And it's worth the few extra tokens to have that let's go step by step or whatever to ensure it does output the reasoning. So my opinion on that is basically the model should be automatically doing this, and they often do, but not always. And I need always.Swyx [00:33:36]: I don't know if I agree that you need always, because it's a mode of a general purpose foundation model, right? The foundation model could do all sorts of things.Sander [00:33:43]: To deny problems, I guess.Swyx [00:33:47]: I think this is in line with your general opinion that prompt engineering will never go away. Because to me, what a prompt is, is kind of shocks the language model into a specific frame that is a subset of what it was pre-trained on. So unless it is only trained on reasoning corpuses, it will always do other things. And I think the interesting papers that have arisen, I think that especially now we have the Lama 3 paper of this that people should read is Orca and Evolve Instructs from the Wizard LM people. It's a very strange conglomeration of researchers from Microsoft. I don't really know how they're organized because they seem like all different groups that don't talk to each other, but they seem to have one in terms of how to train a thought into a model. It's these guys.Sander [00:34:29]: Interesting. I'll have to take a look at that.Swyx [00:34:31]: I also think about it as kind of like Sherlocking. It's like, oh, that's cute. You did this thing in prompting. I'm going to put that into my model. That's a nice way of synthetic data generation for these guys.Alessio [00:34:41]: And next, we actually have a very good one. So later today, we're doing an episode with Shunyu Yao, who's the author of Tree of Thought. So your next section is decomposition, which Tree of Thought is a part of. I was actually listening to his PhD defense, and he mentioned how, if you think about reasoning as like taking actions, then any algorithm that helps you with deciding what action to take next, like Tree Search, can kind of help you with reasoning. Any learnings from going through all the decomposition ones? Are there state-of-the-art ones? Are there ones that are like, I don't know what Skeleton of Thought is? There's a lot of funny names. What's the state-of-the-art in decomposition? Yeah.Sander [00:35:22]: So Skeleton of Thought is actually a bit of a different technique. It has to deal with how to parallelize and improve efficiency of prompts. So not very related to the other ones. In terms of state-of-the-art, I think something like Tree of Thought is state-of-the-art on a number of tasks. Of course, the complexity of implementation and the time it takes can be restrictive. My favorite simple things to do here are just like in a, let's think step-by-step, say like make sure to break the problem down into subproblems and then solve each of those subproblems individually. Something like that, which is just like a zero-shot decomposition prompt, often works pretty well. It becomes more clear how to build a more complicated system, which you could bring in API calls to solve each subproblem individually and then put them all back in the main prompt, stuff like that. But starting off simple with decomposition is always good. The other thing that I think is quite notable is the similarity between decomposition and thought generation, because they're kind of both generating intermediate reasoning. And actually, over the course of this research paper process, I would sometimes come back to the paper like a couple days later, and someone would have moved all of the decomposition techniques into the thought generation section. At some point, I did not agree with this, but my current position is that they are separate. The idea with thought generation is you need to write out intermediate reasoning steps. The idea with decomposition is you need to write out and then kind of individually solve subproblems. And they are different. I'm still working on my ability to explain their difference, but I am convinced that they are different techniques, which require different ways of thinking.Swyx [00:37:05]: We're making up and drawing boundaries on things that don't want to have boundaries. So I do think what you're doing is a public service, which is like, here's our best efforts, attempts, and things may change or whatever, or you might disagree, but at least here's something that a specialist has really spent a lot of time thinking about and categorizing. So I think that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, we also interviewed the Skeleton of Thought author. I think there's a lot of these acts of thought. I think there was a golden period where you publish an acts of thought paper and you could get into NeurIPS or something. I don't know how long that's going to last.Sander [00:37:39]: Okay.Swyx [00:37:40]: Do you want to pick ensembling or self-criticism next? What's the natural flow?Sander [00:37:43]: I guess I'll go with ensembling, seems somewhat natural. The idea here is that you're going to use a couple of different prompts and put your question through all of them and then usually take the majority response. What is my favorite one? Well, let's talk about another kind of controversial one, which is self-consistency. Technically this is a way of sampling from the large language model and the overall strategy is you ask it the same prompt, same exact prompt, multiple times with a somewhat high temperature so it outputs different responses. But whether this is actually an ensemble or not is a bit unclear. We classify it as an ensembling technique more out of ease because it wouldn't fit fantastically elsewhere. And so the arguments on the ensemble side as well, we're asking the model the same exact prompt multiple times. So it's just a couple, we're asking the same prompt, but it is multiple instances. So it is an ensemble of the same thing. So it's an ensemble. And the counter argument to that would be, well, you're not actually ensembling it. You're giving it a prompt once and then you're decoding multiple paths. And that is true. And that is definitely a more efficient way of implementing it for the most part. But I do think that technique is of particular interest. And when it came out, it seemed to be quite performant. Although more recently, I think as the models have improved, the performance of this technique has dropped. And you can see that in the evals we run near the end of the paper where we use it and it doesn't change performance all that much. Although maybe if you do it like 10x, 20, 50x, then it would help more.Swyx [00:39:39]: And ensembling, I guess, you already hinted at this, is related to self-criticism as well. You kind of need the self-criticism to resolve the ensembling, I guess.Sander [00:39:49]: Ensembling and self-criticism are not necessarily related. The way you decide the final output from the ensemble is you usually just take the majority response and you're done. So self-criticism is going to be a bit different in that you have one prompt, one initial output from that prompt, and then you tell the model, okay, look at this question and this answer. Do you agree with this? Do you have any criticism of this? And then you get the criticism and you tell it to reform its answer appropriately. And that's pretty much what self-criticism is. I actually do want to go back to what you said though, because it made me remember another prompting technique, which is ensembling, and I think it's an ensemble. I'm not sure where we have it classified. But the idea of this technique is you sample multiple chain-of-thought reasoning paths, and then instead of taking the majority as the final response, you put all of the reasoning paths into a prompt, and you tell the model, examine all of these reasoning paths and give me the final answer. And so the model could sort of just say, okay, I'm just going to take the majority, or it could see something a bit more interesting in those chain-of-thought outputs and be able to give some result that is better than just taking the majority.Swyx [00:41:04]: Yeah, I actually do this for my summaries. I have an ensemble and then I have another LM go on top of it. I think one problem for me for designing these things with cost awareness is the question of, well, okay, at the baseline, you can just use the same model for everything, but realistically you have a range of models, and actually you just want to sample all range. And then there's a question of, do you want the smart model to do the top level thing, or do you want the smart model to do the bottom level thing, and then have the dumb model be a judge? If you care about cost. I don't know if you've spent time thinking on this, but you're talking about a lot of tokens here, so the cost starts to matter.Sander [00:41:43]: I definitely care about cost. I think it's funny because I feel like we're constantly seeing the prices drop on intelligence. Yeah, so maybe you don't care.Swyx [00:41:52]: I don't know.Sander [00:41:53]: I do still care. I'm about to tell you a funny anecdote from my friend. And so we're constantly seeing, oh, the price is dropping, the price is dropping, the major LM providers are giving cheaper and cheaper prices, and then Lama, Threer come out, and a ton of companies which will be dropping the prices so low. And so it feels cheap. But then a friend of mine accidentally ran GPT-4 overnight, and he woke up with a $150 bill. And so you can still incur pretty significant costs, even at the somewhat limited rate GPT-4 responses through their regular API. So it is something that I spent time thinking about. We are fortunate in that OpenAI provided credits for these projects, so me or my lab didn't have to pay. But my main feeling here is that for the most part, designing these systems where you're kind of routing to different levels of intelligence is a really time-consuming and difficult task. And it's probably worth it to just use the smart model and pay for it at this point if you're looking to get the right results. And I figure if you're trying to design a system that can route properly and consider this for a researcher. So like a one-off project, you're better off working like a 60, 80-hour job for a couple hours and then using that money to pay for it rather than spending 10, 20-plus hours designing the intelligent routing system and paying I don't know what to do that. But at scale, for big companies, it does definitely become more relevant. Of course, you have the time and the research staff who has experience here to do that kind of thing. And so I know like OpenAI, ChatGPT interface does this where they use a smaller model to generate the initial few, I don't know, 10 or so tokens and then the regular model to generate the rest. So it feels faster and it is somewhat cheaper for them.Swyx [00:43:54]: For listeners, we're about to move on to some of the other topics here. But just for listeners, I'll share my own heuristics and rule of thumb. The cheap models are so cheap that calling them a number of times can actually be useful dimension like token reduction for then the smart model to decide on it. You just have to make sure it's kind of slightly different at each time. So GPC 4.0 is currently 5�����������������������.����ℎ�����4.0������5permillionininputtokens.AndthenGPC4.0Miniis0.15.Sander [00:44:21]: It is a lot cheaper.Swyx [00:44:22]: If I call GPC 4.0 Mini 10 times and I do a number of drafts or summaries, and then I have 4.0 judge those summaries, that actually is net savings and a good enough savings than running 4.0 on everything, which given the hundreds and thousands and millions of tokens that I process every day, like that's pretty significant. So, but yeah, obviously smart, everything is the best, but a lot of engineering is managing to constraints.Sander [00:44:47]: That's really interesting. Cool.Swyx [00:44:49]: We cannot leave this section without talking a little bit about automatic prompts engineering. You have some sections in here, but I don't think it's like a big focus of prompts. The prompt report, DSPy is up and coming sort of approach. You explored that in your self study or case study. What do you think about APE and DSPy?Sander [00:45:07]: Yeah, before this paper, I thought it's really going to keep being a human thing for quite a while. And that like any optimized prompting approach is just sort of too difficult. And then I spent 20 hours prompt engineering for a task and DSPy beat me in 10 minutes. And that's when I changed my mind. I would absolutely recommend using these, DSPy in particular, because it's just so easy to set up. Really great Python library experience. One limitation, I guess, is that you really need ground truth labels. So it's harder, if not impossible currently to optimize open generation tasks. So like writing, writing newsletters, I suppose, it's harder to automatically optimize those. And I'm actually not aware of any approaches that do other than sort of meta-prompting where you go and you say to ChatsDBD, here's my prompt, improve it for me. I've seen those. I don't know how well those work. Do you do that?Swyx [00:46:06]: No, it's just me manually doing things. Because I'm defining, you know, I'm trying to put together what state of the art summarization is. And actually, it's a surprisingly underexplored area. Yeah, I just have it in a little notebook. I assume that's how most people work. Maybe you have explored like prompting playgrounds. Is there anything that I should be trying?Sander [00:46:26]: I very consistently use the OpenAI Playground. That's been my go-to over the last couple of years. There's so many products here, but I really haven't seen anything that's been super sticky. And I'm not sure why, because it does feel like there's so much demand for a good prompting IDE. And it also feels to me like there's so many that come out. As a researcher, I have a lot of tasks that require quite a bit of customization. So nothing ends up fitting and I'm back to the coding.Swyx [00:46:58]: Okay, I'll call out a few specialists in this area for people to check out. Prompt Layer, Braintrust, PromptFu, and HumanLoop, I guess would be my top picks from that category of people. And there's probably others that I don't know about. So yeah, lots to go there.Alessio [00:47:16]: This was a, it's like an hour breakdown of how to prompt things, I think. We finally have one. I feel like we've never had an episode just about prompting.Swyx [00:47:22]: We've never had a prompt engineering episode.Sander [00:47:24]: Yeah. Exactly.Alessio [00:47:26]: But we went 85 episodes without talking about prompting, but...Swyx [00:47:29]: We just assume that people roughly know, but yeah, I think a dedicated episode directly on this, I think is something that's sorely needed. And then, you know, something I prompted Sander with is when I wrote about the rise of the AI engineer, it was actually a direct opposition to the rise of the prompt engineer, right? Like people were thinking the prompt engineer is a job and I was like, nope, not good enough. You need something, you need to code. And that was the point of the AI engineer. You can only get so far with prompting. Then you start having to bring in things like DSPy, which surprise, surprise, is a bunch of code. And that is a huge jump. That's not a jump for you, Sander, because you can code, but it's a huge jump for the non-technical people who are like, oh, I thought I could do fine with prompt engineering. And I don't think that's enough.Sander [00:48:09]: I agree with that completely. I have always viewed prompt engineering as a skill that everybody should and will have rather than a specialized role to hire for. That being said, there are definitely times where you do need just a prompt engineer. I think for AI companies, it's definitely useful to have like a prompt engineer who knows everything about prompting because their clientele wants to know about that. So it does make sense there. But for the most part, I don't think hiring prompt engineers makes sense. And I agree with you about the AI engineer. I had been calling that was like generative AI architect, because you kind of need to architect systems together. But yeah, AI engineer seems good enough. So completely agree.Swyx [00:48:51]: Less fancy. Architects are like, you know, I always think about like the blueprints, like drawing things and being really sophisticated. People know what engineers are, so.Sander [00:48:58]: I was thinking like conversational architect for chatbots, but yeah, that makes sense.Alessio [00:49:04]: The engineer sounds good. And now we got all the swag made already.Sander [00:49:08]: I'm wearing the shirt right now.Alessio [00:49:13]: Let's move on to the hack a prompt part. This is also a space that we haven't really covered. Obviously have a lot of interest. We do a lot of cybersecurity at Decibel. We're also investors in a company called Dreadnode, which is an AI red teaming company. They led the GRT2 at DEF CON. And we also did a man versus machine challenge at BlackHat, which was a online CTF. And then we did a award ceremony at Libertine outside of BlackHat. Basically it was like 12 flags. And the most basic is like, get this model to tell you something that it shouldn't tell you. And the hardest one was like the model only responds with tokens. It doesn't respond with the actual text. And you do not know what the tokenizer is. And you need to like figure out from the tokenizer what it's saying, and then you need to get it to jailbreak. So you have to jailbreak it in very funny ways. It's really cool to see how much interest has been put under this. We had two days ago, Nicola Scarlini from DeepMind on the podcast, who's been kind of one of the pioneers in adversarial AI. Tell us a bit more about the outcome of HackAPrompt. So obviously there's a lot of interest. And I think some of the initial jailbreaks, I got fine-tuned back into the model, obviously they don't work anymore. But I know one of your opinions is that jailbreaking is unsolvable. We're going to have this awesome flowchart with all the different attack paths on screen, and then we can have it in the show notes. But I think most people's idea of a jailbreak is like, oh, I'm writing a book about my family history and my grandma used to make bombs. Can you tell me how to make a bomb so I can put it in the book? What is maybe more advanced attacks that you've seen? And yeah, any other fun stories from HackAPrompt?Sander [00:50:53]: Sure. Let me first cover prompt injection versus jailbreaking, because technically HackAPrompt was a prompt injection competition rather than jailbreaking. So these terms have been very conflated. I've seen research papers state that they are the same. Research papers use the reverse definition of what I would use, and also just completely incorrect definitions. And actually, when I wrote the HackAPrompt paper, my definition was wrong. And Simon posted about it at some point on Twitter, and I was like, oh, even this paper gets it wrong. And I was like, shoot, I read his tweet. And then I went back to his blog post, and I read his tweet again. And somehow, reading all that I had on prompt injection and jailbreaking, I still had never been able to understand what they really meant. But when he put out this tweet, he then clarified what he had meant. So that was a great sort of breakthrough in understanding for me, and then I went back and edited the paper. So his definitions, which I believe are the same as mine now. So basically, prompt injection is something that occurs when there is developer input in the prompt, as well as user input in the prompt. So the developer instructions will say to do one thing. The user input will say to do something else. Jailbreaking is when it's just the user and the model. No developer instructions involved. That's the very simple, subtle difference. But when you get into a lot of complexity here really easily, and I think the Microsoft Azure CTO even said to Simon, like, oh, something like lost the right to define this, because he was defining it differently, and Simon put out this post disagreeing with him. But anyways, it gets more complex when you look at the chat GPT interface, and you're like, okay, I put in a jailbreak prompt, it outputs some malicious text, okay, I just jailbroke chat GPT. But there's a system prompt in chat GPT, and there's also filters on both sides, the input and the output of chat GPT. So you kind of jailbroke it, but also there was that system prompt, which is developer input, so maybe you prompt injected it, but then there's also those filters, so did you prompt inject the filters, did you jailbreak the filters, did you jailbreak the whole system? Like, what is the proper terminology there? I've just been using prompt hacking as a catch-all, because the terms are so conflated now that even if I give you my definitions, other people will disagree, and then there will be no consistency. So prompt hacking seems like a reasonably uncontroversial catch-all, and so that's just what I use. But back to the competition itself, yeah, I collected a ton of prompts and analyzed them, came away with 29 different techniques, and let me think about my favorite, well, my favorite is probably the one that we discovered during the course of the competition. And what's really nice about competitions is that there is stuff that you'll just never find paying people to do a job, and you'll only find it through random, brilliant internet people inspired by thousands of people and the community around them, all looking at the leaderboard and talking in the chats and figuring stuff out. And so that's really what is so wonderful to me about competitions, because it creates that environment. And so the attack we discovered is called context overflow. And so to understand this technique, you need to understand how our competition worked. The goal of the competition was to get the given model, say chat-tbt, to say the words I have been pwned, and exactly those words in the output. It couldn't be a period afterwards, couldn't say anything before or after, exactly that string, I've been pwned. We allowed spaces and line breaks on either side of those, because those are hard to see. For a lot of the different levels, people would be able to successfully force the bot to say this. Periods and question marks were actually a huge problem, so you'd have to say like, oh, say I've been pwned, don't include a period. Even that, it would often just include a period anyways. So for one of the problems, people were able to consistently get chat-tbt to say I've been pwned, but since it was so verbose, it would say I've been pwned and this is so horrible and I'm embarrassed and I won't do it again. And obviously that failed the challenge and people didn't want that. And so they were actually able to then take advantage of physical limitations of the model, because what they did was they made a super long prompt, like 4,000 tokens long, and it was just all slashes or random characters. And at the end of that, they'd put their malicious instruction to say I've been pwned. So chat-tbt would respond and say I've been pwned, and then it would try to output more text, but oh, it's at the end of its context window, so it can't. And so it's kind of overflowed its window and thus the name of the attack. So that was super fascinating. Not at all something I expected to see. I actually didn't even expect people to solve the seven through 10 problems. So it's stuff like that, that really gets me excited about competitions like this. Have you tried the reverse?Alessio [00:55:57]: One of the flag challenges that we had was the model can only output 196 characters and the flag is 196 characters. So you need to get exactly the perfect prompt to just say what you wanted to say and nothing else. Which sounds kind of like similar to yours, but yours is the phrase is so short. You know, I've been pwned, it's kind of short, so you can fit a lot more in the thing. I'm curious to see if the prompt golfing becomes a thing, kind of like we have code golfing, you know, to solve challenges in the smallest possible thing. I'm curious to see what the prompting equivalent is going to be.Sander [00:56:34]: Sure. I haven't. We didn't include that in the challenge. I've experimented with that a bit in the sense that every once in a while, I try to get the model to output something of a certain length, a certain number of sentences, words, tokens even. And that's a well-known struggle. So definitely very interesting to look at, especially from the code golf perspective, prompt golf. One limitation here is that there's randomness in the model outputs. So your prompt could drift over time. So it's less reproducible than code golf. All right.Swyx [00:57:08]: I think we are good to come to an end. We just have a couple of like sort of miscellaneous stuff. So first of all, multimodal prompting is an interesting area. You like had like a couple of pages on it, and obviously it's a very new area. Alessio and I have been having a lot of fun doing prompting for audio, for music. Every episode of our podcast now comes with a custom intro from Suno or Yudio. The one that shipped today was Suno. It was very, very good. What are you seeing with like Sora prompting or music prompting? Anything like that?Sander [00:57:40]: I wish I could see stuff with Sora prompting, but I don't even have access to that.Swyx [00:57:45]: There's some examples up.Sander [00:57:46]: Oh, sure. I mean, I've looked at a number of examples, but I haven't had any hands-on experience, sadly. But I have with Yudio, and I was very impressed. I listen to music just like anyone else, but I'm not someone who has like a real expert ear for music. So to me, everything sounded great, whereas my friend would listen to the guitar riffs and be like, this is horrible. And like they wouldn't even listen to it. But I would. I guess I just kind of, again, don't have the ear for it. Don't care as much. I'm really impressed by these systems, especially the voice. The voices would just sound so clear and perfect. When they came out, I was prompting it a lot the first couple of days. Now I don't use them. I just don't have an application for it. We will start including intros in our video courses that use the sound though. Well, actually, sorry. I do have an opinion here. The video models are so hard to prompt. I've been using Gen 3 in particular, and I was trying to get it to output one sphere that breaks into two spheres. And it wouldn't do it. It would just give me like random animations. And eventually, one of my friends who works on our videos, I just gave the task to him and he's very good at doing video prompt engineering. He's much better than I am. So one reason for prompt engineering will always be a thing for me was, okay, we're going to move into different modalities and prompting will be different, more complicated there. But I actually took that back at some point because I thought, well, if we solve prompting in text modalities and just like, you don't have to do it all and have that figured out. But that was wrong because the video models are much more difficult to prompt. And you have so many more axes of freedom. And my experience so far has been that of great, difficult, hugely cool stuff you can make. But when I'm trying to make a specific animation I need when building a course or something like that, I do have a hard time.Swyx [00:59:46]: It can only get better. I guess it's frustrating that it's still not that the controllability that we want Google researchers about this because they're working on video models as well. But we'll see what happens, you know, still very early days. The last question I had was on just structured output prompting. In here is sort of the Instructure, Lang chain, but also just, you had a section in your paper, actually just, I want to call this out for people that scoring in terms of like a linear scale, Likert scale, that kind of stuff is super important, but actually like not super intuitive. Like if you get it wrong, like the model will actually not give you a score. It just gives you what i

What are the time-tested principles of better time management and productivity? That's what I'm exploring in this week's episode.    You can subscribe to this podcast on: Podbean | Apple Podcasts | Stitcher | Spotify | TUNEIN Links:   Email Me | Twitter | Facebook | Website | Linkedin   The Ultimate Productivity Workshop  Get Your Copy Of Your Time, Your Way: Time Well Managed, Life Well Lived Take The NEW COD Course The Working With… Weekly Newsletter Carl Pullein Learning Centre Carl's YouTube Channel Carl Pullein Coaching Programmes The Working With… Podcast Previous episodes page Script | 337 Hello, and welcome to episode 337 of the Your Time, Your Way Podcast. A podcast to answer all your questions about productivity, time management, self-development and goal planning. My name is Carl Pullein, and I am your host of this show. If you have read books on time management and productivity, you may have picked up that there are a few basic principles that never seem to change.  Things like writing everything down, not relying on your head to remember things, planning your day and week, and writing out what is important to you.  These are solid principles that have remained unchanged for hundreds of years. The tools we use may have changed, but these principles have not and never will.  What is surprising are the attempts to reinvent time management. New apps and systems seem to come out every month claiming to be “game-changing”—I hate that phrase—or more ways to defy the laws of time and physics and somehow create more time in the day than is possible.  Hyrum Smith, the creator of the Franklin Planner, an icon of time management and productivity, always said that time management principles have not changed in over 6,000 years. What has changed is the speed at which we try to do things.  Technology hasn't changed these time management principles; all technology has done is make doing things faster.  Today, I can send an email to the other side of the world, and it will arrive instantly. Two hundred years ago, I would have had to write a letter, go to the post office to purchase a stamp, and send it. It would arrive two or three months later.  Funnily enough, I read a book called The Man With The Golden Typewriter. It's a book of letters Ian Fleming sent to his readers and publisher. He often began his letters with the words “Thank you for your letter of the 14th of February,” yet the date of his reply was in April.  Not only were things slower fifty years ago, people were more patient.  So, with all that said, let me hand you over to the Mystery Podcast Voice for this week's question.  This week's question comes from Lisa. Lisa asks, Hi Carl, I've noticed you've been talking about basic principles of productivity recently. Are there any principles you follow that have not changed? Hi Lisa, thank you for your question. The answer is yes, there are. Yet, it took me a long time to realise the importance of these principles.  The first one, which many people try to avoid, is establishing what is important to you. This is what I call doing the backend work.  You see, if you don't know what is important to you, your days will be driven by the latest urgent thing. That's likely to come from other people and not from you.  Stephen Covey wrote about this in his Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, with his Time Management Matrix, also called the Eisenhower Matrix. This matrix is divided into Important and urgent, important and not urgent, urgent and not important, and not urgent and not important.  The goal of this matrix is to spend as much time as possible in the second quadrant—the important but not urgent. This area includes things like getting enough sleep, planning, exercising, and taking preventative action.  The more time you spend here, the less time you will spend in the urgent and important and urgent and not important areas.  Yet, unless you know what is important to you, the only thing driving your day will be the things that are important to others. That includes your company, your friends and family. They will be making demands on you, and as you have no barriers, their crises will become yours. You, in effect, become part of the problem instead of being part of the solution.  When you have your life together, you can offer calm, considered solutions to those you care about. You also know when to get involved and when to stay well away.  Yet, you can only do that when you know what is important to you.  Many authors and time management specialists refer to establishing what is important to you in different ways; Hyrum Smith calls this establishing your governing values, Stephen Covey calls it knowing your roles, and I call them your areas of focus.  These are just names for essentially the same thing. Get to know what is important to you as an individual. Then, write them down in a place where you can refer back to them regularly so you know that your days, weeks, and months are living according to the principles that are important to you.  It's these that give you the power to say no to things that conflict with your values.  Without knowing what they are, you will say yes to many things you don't enjoy or want to do.  The next principle is to plan your week and day. Again, this is another area so many people avoid. I remember hearing a statistic that less than 5% of Getting Things Done practitioners do any weekly review.  If you've read Getting Things Done by David Allen, you'll know that he stresses the importance of the weekly review in almost every chapter.  People who don't plan are often driven by the fear of what they might learn, such as a forgotten project deadline, an important meeting that needs a lot of preparation, or a lost opportunity.  Yet, these are the results of not planning. If you were to give yourself thirty minutes at the end of the week to plan the next week and five to ten minutes each evening to plan the next day, many of the things you fear will never happen. You will be alerted to the issues well before you need to act.  For me, consistently planning my week and day has been life-changing. This simple activity has ensured I am working on the right things, dealing with the most important things, and ending the week knowing that the right things were completed.  Prior to becoming consistent with my planning, I was all over the place. I spent far too much time on the unimportant and saying yes to many things I didn't want to do. I was also procrastinating A LOT.  A huge benefit of planning is that you get to see data. In other words, you learn very quickly what is possible and what is not. When you begin planning the week, you will be overambitious and try to do too much. The more you plan, the more you learn what can be done.  No, you won't be able to attend six hours of meetings, write a report, reply to 150 emails, go to the gym and spend quality time with your family.  When you know what is important, you will ensure you have time for it because you plan for it (can you see the connection?). You will start to say no to some meetings (and yes, you can say no by offering an alternative day and time for the meeting) and renegotiate report deadlines.  A third principle is to manage your time ruthlessly. By that, I mean being very strict about what goes on your calendar. Never, ever let anyone else schedule meetings or appointments for you.  Your calendar is the one tool you have that gives you control over your day. Allowing other people to control it essentially turns you into a puppet. No, never ever let that happen.  Now, before Google Calendar, Outlook and Apple Calendar, we carried our own diaries around with us. No one else could have control of it. If you were fortunate enough to have a secretary (now called an “executive assistant”), you would meet with her (secretaries were largely female in the 60s, 70s and 80s) each week and explain when you were and were not available.  Your secretary would then gate keep your calendar. The best secretaries were pretty much impossible to get past. They protected their boss's time.  People knew that time was important and for anyone to do their work, they needed undisturbed time. Your calendar was respected.  A person's diary was so important that the courts would accept it as evidence they were in a particular location. I doubt very much they would do that today.  A mistake is to say yes to a time commitment too quickly. This is how we get conflicts in our calendars. You cannot be in two places at the same time—that's another law of physics—so you either say no and offer an alternative date, or you have to waste time renegotiating with someone later.  I am shocked at how often I see conflicts on people's calendars. Clearing these up should be the first thing you do during your weekly planning.  Information you need to know about the day should go in the all-day section of your calendar, not in the timed area. Only committed timed events go in the time area of your calendar.  When your calendar truly reflects your commitments, you can then set about planning a realistic day. If you have six hours of meetings and thirty tasks to complete, you will know instantly that you have an impossible day, and you can either move some of your appointments or reduce your task list.  Ignoring it only diminishes the power of your calendar, leaving you again at the mercy of other people's crises and issues.  This is about being strict about your time. Wake up and go to bed at the same time each day so you have solid bookends to your day. Ensure you protect time for your important work and your family and friends. And never let other people steal your time.  The final principle is the tool you use won't make you more productive or better at time management. Tools come and go. In the 1980s, it was the Filofax. In the 90s, it was the Franklin Planner. Today is the latest fashionable app. It doesn't matter. None of them will ever make you more productive.  What will make you more productive is knowing what is important to you. Having a plan for the day and week so you know what must be accomplished that day, and week. And being in complete control of your calendar.  Get those three things right, and you will feel less stressed, more in control of your life and have a sense of purpose each day. Isn't that what we all want?  I hope that has helped, Lisa. Thank you for your question.  And thank you to you, too, for listening. It just remains for me now to wish you all a very, very productive week.   

How goes the recovery? Also, how went the Renfair? Waking up with dishes, green gables, Aliens discs and when all the murders happen in the building, and more! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

How goes the recovery? Also, how went the Renfair? Waking up with dishes, green gables, Aliens discs and when all the murders happen in the building, and more! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

“If at first you don't succeed, try try again”It shouldn't apply to marriages but it seems to in this weeks case.Janet was on her second, her husband Richard Overton was on his third.They were very unhappy, so unhappy rather than divorce, Richard decides that murdering her is the best option.Funnily enough, its his second attempt at killing someone....This week we discuss:  Murder, Divorce, Affairs, Selenium, Cyanide Sources:https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-06-16-me-474-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-02-me-3002-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-04-mn-3470-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-05-02-mn-30286-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-05-15-mn-893-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-09-02-me-41426-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1995-09-02-me-41426-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/local/obituaries/la-me-richard-overton7-2009jun07-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-06-17-mn-570-story.htmlhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selenium#Toxicityhttps://mylifeofcrime.wordpress.com/2014/11/26/psycho-for-love-richard-overton-killed-his-wife-janet-overton-by-using-cyanide-sentenced-to-life-in-prison/https://www.chillingcrimes.com/blogs/news/janet-overtonhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-21-mn-191-story.htmlhttps://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-13-mn-1138-story.htmlhttps://www.findagrave.com/memorial/122531645/janet_lyn_overtonhttps://www.findagrave.com/memorial/122553519/dorothy_l-boyerhttps://www.findagrave.com/memorial/3Support the Show.Patreon https://www.patreon.com/MMoMEmail: murdermeonmondaypodcast@gmail.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/MMonMonday Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/murdermeonmondaypodcast/ Theme Tune is published under license from: Tribe of Noise – Awkward Mystery https://prosearch.tribeofnoise.com/artists/show/29267/32277

Michele Gennoe grew up in Australia obtaining a degree in Marketing and then later an advanced degree. What makes her a bit unique is that after college she took positions with companies that allowed her to travel throughout the world where she had the opportunity to observe people and begin working to help them change their mindset about business and success. For the past roughly twelve years Michele has operated her own business coaching and teaching executives and others all over the world to change their perceptions of success, happiness and life in general. As she told me during our conversation the most important characteristic someone should find and discover if they really wish to be successful is kindness. How true. Six years ago Michele published her book “Mindful Leadership” which is available on Amazon for all to purchase and read. I really appreciated Michele's insights including her idea that no matter what, people could take some time during their day to reflect and strategize for the day. Michele's idea is that if at no other time, take time to think while taking a shower. What do you do in the shower anyway? It is for most people dead time that can be put to productive use. I hope you enjoy Michele's ideas and thoughts. I think you will find what she has to say to be interesting and useful. About the Guest: Michele Gennoe is widely considered one of the world's foremost experts on “success mindset,” which is the art and science of transforming your mindset for success. She is the award-winning author of the book ‘Mindful Leadership' which Andrew Griffiths described as, “This is a book for every leader on the planet”, and is widely quoted for her simple steps to success. She has also been featured in tv, radio and podcasts such as Business Chat Podcast, Channel 31, SME TV, Ticker TV and many more. As host of ‘Mindset Michele TV' she interviews experts on a wide range of topics to share this wisdom with wider audiences of how to build the habits for a successful mindset. Through her individual and organisational work as an executive transformation specialist, Michele has successfully led and coached over 30 organisations and 5,000 clients across the globe. In London, Chile, Los Angeles and India plus others across diverse industries including banking, charity, aged care, education, transport, finance and many more. Michele has invested the last 20 years into studying transformational principles across personal and professional development to bring together a synthesis of leading approaches into her own methodologies and approaches with clients. Michele helps high performing professionals overcome stress, overwhelm and procrastination so you can live the life you love while making a difference. Through her books, live events and signature programs like “Mindset Makeover- redesign your mind for success!” she has empowered millions of people achieve new heights of spiritual aliveness, wealth and authentic success. Here's what others are saying about Michele's work: Michele Gennoe is a truly talented coach. Her sessions focus on building your new normal and reflecting on small changes to create a habit of positivity and gratitude. Michele has helped me learn to appreciate my successes. Claire Lerm, Digital Transformation Journey Lead, Head of Delivery What is my legacy? Do we ever truly regard this question with depth and reverence? Michele has a robust program that suits anyone who needs to remember that our true wellness is sometimes just hidden in our busy mind. She creates a space within us, to find ourselves again and empowers us to be more successful and thrive. Sia Kapeleris, Community Volunteer Michele is a highly innovative leader who shows you how to reach outcomes. She has enormous insights that are expressed through her communications, actions and the amount of support she provides for her clients to be successful. Marianne Kadunc, Founder & Director Mobile Marketing Ways to connect with Michele: https://michelegennoe.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/michelegennoe/ https://www.facebook.com/michele.gennoe/ https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLMDtH5Tvzrhlsu-Zgd84si2J6f5Q9ocNF&si=HrJM0vY3I8osE-N5 https://twitter.com/mgennoe https://www.instagram.com/mindsetmichele1/?hl=en Mindful Leadership Book Links https://michelegennoe.com/mindful-leadership-book/ https://www.amazon.com/Mindful-Leadership-Steps-Transforming-Business/dp/0992599814/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr= About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children's Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association's 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app. Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:16 Well, hi once again, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for joining us. I am your host, Michael hingson. Well, you can call me Mike as well, it's okay. But I really appreciate you being here to listen to our podcast today. Today, we have a guest, Michele Gennoe. And Michele is a mindset success expert. And she's written a book, which I think is really pretty cool. She wrote a book called mindful leadership. And I'm sure she's going to tell us about that as we go forward. And I think there's going to be a lot to learn about this. She has been an international expert and traveler and speaker on the successful mindset, which is cool. I am absolutely a fan of the concept of a successful mindset anyways, so let's get to it. Michele, thank you for being here with us. And thank you for for coming out on Unstoppable mindset. Thank   Michele Gennoe ** 02:22 you, Michael. It's such an honor and a privilege to be here today with your show and to be speaking to our viewers and listeners and and sharing some of my insights.   Michael Hingson ** 02:32 And Michele is down in Australia. So we didn't get her up too early this morning. But still. It's it's it's early enough. But But no, thank   Michele Gennoe ** 02:43 you, Michael. I'm glad it wasn't quite in the middle of the night.   Michael Hingson ** 02:47 Well, we do try to make it as convenient as we can. And as I tell everyone who's going to come on the podcast. It's all about you scheduling this for when it's convenient for you. So it works out pretty well. Well, would you start by telling us kind of about the the Earlier Michele growing up and some of that kind of stuff and sort of bring us up to date that way.   Michele Gennoe ** 03:09 Well, thank you, Michael. I know Americans love a great migrant story. So mine is also a migrant story. Even though I sound Australian and I grew up here. My family migrated to Australia when I was very young. So I was very lucky in many different ways, I believe, because I've lived many elements of that migrant dream that families do for their children. I was the first in my family that we know of to go to university. We grew up in a pretty idyllic area. So it was kind of grow growing as a town and as an area as a child. But we still had a lot of bush around us. So we were able to go running out there in that bush. My early years were in a small place called Armidale in Western Australia, but I very soon grew up and had a bigger sense of what I wanted to do and where I wanted to go. So I moved to different cities, biggest cities in Australia and I've actually then lived and worked overseas for a number of years in London and South America and got to visit many many different beautiful places there in the US and loved Li and laughed in your walk can even loved you Orleans. And so those travels helped to expand what was part of my passion about understanding people and what motivates them, but also one of my other passions around technology and what was in those days, the synchronicities if you like between, we could talk to each other and like they're all across the world. But did we really understand each other because we had different cultures, different backgrounds and even sometimes different language. All of those different travels and experiences pretty much led to me starting my own business on purpose transformation. Sure, and then the book and then, you know, setting up the TV show and other things that we're doing today, around that mindset and success mindset coaching.   Michael Hingson ** 05:08 Well, so, where did you go to university, I went to   Michele Gennoe ** 05:13 university at a place called Curtin University in Western Australia, I was very lucky again, that I lived on the student campus or college Catholic, they call them colleges, they don't know where the students live on campus, in the States. So I lived on campus. And it gave me an absolutely fabulous experience of the university. And also made it much easier to get to classes when I was running late in the morning.   Michael Hingson ** 05:44 I know the feeling I lived on campus, all the time I was at college for the first three years, I lived in one of the dormitories. And then because I had enough books in braille, that it took up a lot of space, they let me move into one of the on campus apartments for graduate students. So for my senior year, and then my graduate years, I lived in a two bedroom apartment, so shared the apartment with a couple of other people. But I still had enough room for Braille books, and it worked out pretty well.   Michele Gennoe ** 06:18 Sounds fabulous.   Michael Hingson ** 06:19 And I wouldn't trade living on campus for anything. And I appreciate that not everyone can necessarily do that. But there's value in being able to do it if you can, or at least participate in as many activities even if you don't live on campus. Participating in college life is really very important to do I think   Michele Gennoe ** 06:40 it is I remember I, in my first few months went and did a music appreciation class with just as something unusual to do and coming from, you know, that small town and the quite limited environment that I'd grown up in suddenly experiencing mods and rockers and this and that, that was quite an eye opener. And one of the beauties of that experience of experiencing and seeing different people, you didn't necessarily need to agree with them or become what they were or what they followed, that I got to experience all of those different kinds of views on life again. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 07:20 Which is really what it's about. It's about learning about different things that may be not typical for you. But that's okay.   Michele Gennoe ** 07:29 Yeah, you know, everything from and this is might be a little bit controversial. But yes, there were communist kind of groups on the campus at the time. So I got to go and experience what that was at one extreme. And at the extreme, I went to the business students who are as a part of their events and was able to become involved in that group.   Michael Hingson ** 07:51 What was it like going to some of those events, the communist groups and so on? What, what did they do? Or how was that different?   Michele Gennoe ** 08:01 What was really interesting for me was they just had a different narrative. I mean, now the world's a bit more complex. So people understand that people may have a different narrative. But like I said, you know, I've only ever heard one view on the Vietnam War, one view on this one view on that. So I didn't believe or disbelieve what they were saying, I just understood that those people had a different view on life. And probably the main thing I connected with was their view at that time, around women equality. And I think the only thing I really got involved with out of that whole group was the, what they called the Reclaim midnight marches, where we will march and you're going to notice days to make it safer for women to go out at night. So it's interesting to reflect now, because people wouldn't necessarily even think of, you know, you need to march to be able to feel safe at night. But in those days, I think people were a little bit more active about their beliefs than perhaps today.   Michael Hingson ** 09:02 Well, now today, of course, we at least hear and I suspect in other parts of the world as well, we tend to not even really want to converse or talk about things and be as open to learning as we used to it's, well, I know my way and I know what's right, and you don't, which is really unfortunate. We've lost the art of conversation, it seems to me to a large degree. Yeah,   Michele Gennoe ** 09:29 I think, you know, I, one of the business students events, they actually had a sexist Bumble competition, which again, you know, at its time, and in its place was fairly innocent. But I still thought it was inappropriate, you know, fast forward a couple of years and of course, it's not appropriate. But at the time when I was kind of making that statement that I understood, they didn't realize that it wasn't appropriate etc. The men and women are I actually thought it reflected badly as a business student and on the association, but again, it was that for me, what I was excited about was that lens just like the business students didn't see that there was anything necessarily right or wrong. The the communist people that were really excited about that area didn't necessarily see anything right or wrong. And I was able to an ability that was I was able to go into these different worlds and make people with different views. And to keep expanding my view, I think, all of us when we're doing that stuff, we're kind of looking well, what am I Blois? What are my values? And what do I really think is going on here? And, and you're right, I think that that critical thought is something that perhaps we're not maybe able to share as much nowadays, because it can be a little bit more black and white, you're either in one area, the other. But yeah, I think it was very, it was a great time, because it was very formative for me to then understand. People have different ways of looking at things and different mindsets, then success can mean one thing for one person and something to somebody else. And nobody's right or wrong, it is just the views.   Michael Hingson ** 11:15 That's the operative part about it. Nobody is necessarily right or wrong. And we should be open to accepting. Other people may have views that differ from our own. Yeah,   Michele Gennoe ** 11:27 and you know, the trans discussion, you know, him her writing, all of these kinds of modern day discussions, if you like, are an evolution of understanding that people have a different view. And they come from a different kind of background. And then working out your values, I believe it's working out your values, and what's important to you, and whether you believe what they believe or not, but respecting that they do have a different lens to things to you. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 11:59 Well, so what did you get your degree in?   Michele Gennoe ** 12:03 So my degree was actually in marketing of all sales, because I've never actually been gone and worked in marketing. What funny, but I've met so many LinkedIn coaches that did degrees in biology or whatever now that I think the thing about marketing that I probably took away the most was how much psychology had to do with influencing people to buy and what they brought and how they brought it. So I think, understanding that perhaps, again, those influences, and how marketing and advertising, the whole aim was to tap into people's influences, and then have them buy those services and products.   Michael Hingson ** 12:51 Yeah, which is what marketing is really all about.   Michele Gennoe ** 12:56 It is it is it's convincing, you need something even if you don't necessarily need it. Selling ice to the Eskimos, as they always say,   Michael Hingson ** 13:10 Well, you know, they need them. You kind of have refrigerators? Everybody knows, everybody knows that.   Michele Gennoe ** 13:18 Well, and nowadays, it could be you know, Fer nice as opposed to normal life.   Michael Hingson ** 13:24 Well, did you get advanced degrees? Or did you stop at bachelors or what?   Michele Gennoe ** 13:30 No, I did. I wasn't quite as exciting because I was working. And so when you're working and studying, it's a little bit harder as people know, I did an advanced degree in International Management. And that in those days about that time, you know, I was looking at this concept of, you know, Isn't that fabulous? That can literally do business anywhere in the world now. But if you send them a fax, or an email, or whatever, will they understand what you're saying? Not just even if they can read and write English, but will they understand the nuances and the context. So I did some postgraduate, and that's what my thesis was about was the rise of globalization and localization. Funnily enough, all of the data and the technology and big companies have still been talking about that phenomenon. That's called different things now, but that same sort of AI and the growth of this and the growth of that, that that same concept, the main, you can use different technology, but people are still essentially people at the end of the day. They want to have children and will have good lives have a good job. So the human drive, if you like, is kind of this constant throughout the changes with technology and the ways that we work. So I did that. It took a couple of years and unfortunately, in my second year, my son ever passed away. So it was a pretty tough year. And I was very lucky. I had so long, great supports around me at the University at Curtin that actually helped me to kind of come back and then get through, essentially a year's worth in the last few, four months of union, so yeah, it was fairly intense. But I was very grateful and very lucky that I then had my postgraduate International Management and got to really understand this, at that time, new area called internationalization and globalization. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 15:38 I know how tough it can be. And I lost my father, when well, we had gotten married. So my was 34, had been through college and had had a couple jobs. But we lost him in 1984, and then my mom in 1987. And then it is tough. But even for me tougher than both of those was my wife of 40 years, passed away last year, in November. So we were married for two years. And she passed. As I tell people, the body just doesn't always keep up, she was in a wheelchair her whole life. And her body just finally said, I've had enough. And I tell people, it does just always keep up with the Spirit. And again, it is a challenge. But at the same time, I had enough of a warning, what was happening, to mentally start to prepare, but nothing can totally prepare you for something like that, other than you've got to make the decision to move forward.   Michele Gennoe ** 16:39 Yeah, I am so sorry for your loss, especially your wife of 40 years. I think for me, one of the reasons my father passing was also quite dramatic was I was literally it was like out of the movies. And it felt like and maybe because I was sitting in a meeting at work. I was 27 years old. And somebody literally walked in the room and said you need to go to the hospital now. I went to the hospital when he died the next day. So I was very blissfully when my mum passed a few years ago, that I got to go and be with her and healthcare for for the last six months. So completely contrast. And I was very grateful that she was able to hold on and be with us so that it wasn't quite as quick a shock. Like with my father. Yeah, but I think you know, loved ones when they pass. You kind of you mourn the physical passing, but you know that they're always with you. And they love you wherever they're at a spirit might be.   Michael Hingson ** 17:42 I love to tell people that having been married for two years, I've got 40 years of wonderful marriage memories. And I know whatever is going on, I have to be a good kid or I'm going to hear about it from her. So I I have to behave myself. You do you're watching? Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's okay. Like she she can watch and participate all she wants as far as I'm concerned. But you   Michele Gennoe ** 18:12 know, you carry you carry them in the, you know, the funny ways that you smile, you look at people or you you interact with people, I think, because you especially in marriage, you become one person after 40 years.   Michael Hingson ** 18:25 Yeah, very much so and a lot of ways. Well, what did you do after college? Um,   Michele Gennoe ** 18:32 so, I think after I finished my postgraduate studies, which really, you know, changed changed the course of my life in quite a dramatic way. I'd pretty much been talking about traveling and seeing the world up until that point, but not really had the impetus. And then of course, with my father's passing, I then was thinking about going on seeing the world and then I had some memories that I suppressed up until him passing come back. And when those memories came up, it seemed even more appropriate and a right time to then leave what had been fabulous up until that point, but go and live in a different state called Victoria or Melbourne here in Australia. And at that time, I was able to use my university. I've been teaching and lecturing at Curtin by that point when I was doing postgraduate studies, so I was very lucky. I cut off soft landed into Melbourne and taught and worked at Melbourne University in Queensland and Monash. So I started even though I don't think I'd quite chose and I still started down a bit more of an academic path at that point, and then landed in a company it was called Wallmark back then, which gave me the opportunity to kind of grow, not just my career, but again, my understanding of how international business worked at that point, and how, and wool clothing and Walmart was one of the biggest brands in the world at the time, and how they had actually market. And so I was working in their international textiles area, and able to really see big companies, big budgets and big brands and promotion at work around the world.   Michael Hingson ** 20:33 So when did all of that start? When did you go to work for them? Um,   Michele Gennoe ** 20:37 this was in the late 90s. Okay, so one of the other things, I think that was interesting was that I'd grown up and especially my dad had been like a career railway man and UK where we came from, he worked in the railways and in Perth in Western Australia, who worked on the railways. And so he kind of was example of somebody that you get a job, and you stay in that industry or in that company, for all of your working career. So it was a bit of a shock for me, when I started working. And every single company I was working in was restructuring. And so there was no security and this is going from mid 90s onwards, there was no security, no this no that. So all of the constructs, if you like all the belief systems, the lens, like I was talking about earlier, that my dad had shot kind of showing me this is what it's like when you go into the workforce. But I then got into the workforce, it was nothing like that. And there was disruption after disruption. Now, disruption. And I think in my early days, when I first started working in the universities among in industry, like Wallmark, one of the things that shocked me was that people didn't have guaranteed jobs. And this is now I'm talking about like late 90s. So this, what we might think of as a new phenomenon, post COVID now has actually been around since I started working.   Michael Hingson ** 22:15 You know, several people on our podcast have talked about these very same kinds of things. And I and I always ask, I'm very curious about why did things change? Why did we get to a new environment where people didn't stay in jobs, and things became so much less secure? Do you have any notion about that, I   Michele Gennoe ** 22:38 actually have a few different thoughts on it, I think one of the main one being, that there was that, that sense of loyalty from the company to the employee and the employee to the company, that we don't have that. And again, it's not just a recent thing, where people have realized, Oh, I can't go any further in this company or in this job. So I need to leave to be able to further my career. I think that even back then companies, and especially in my view, working with so many different companies had such poor people and culture or HR experiences, that didn't really understand that there was a lot of lip service given to the importance of the employee, etc. And in marketing, taking it back to my very first, love and passion. What they talk about there is, you know, it takes $3 to get like a new customer, and $1 to keep them so that your investment in like an employee or somebody that's working for you should be that $1 a year. But I think even back then, companies didn't invest enough money. And so they were happier, investing $3 per employee to bring them on and all that recruitment, etc. You fast forward to today, and it's even worse. Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 24:09 it's not following through. And, and she say investing in the same way. And then they wonder why people leave. It's it is interesting, and it's a mind. Well, a mindset that probably really needs to change, and it would be valuable if it did, but companies a lot of companies do what they do. But speaking of mindsets, how did you get into the whole subject of and become interested in the concept of mindset? Great   Michele Gennoe ** 24:41 question. And I think what how people looked at life and trying to understand life was something that I had, like a natural curiosity from when I was quite young, and it was something that they didn't like when I was traveling or when I was studying or even at unit Let's see, as I described, I was still interested in why things were, the way they were or how people were the way they were. So I, I don't think was until probably about 10 or 15 years after my father passed. And I'd been working through this healing journey, that I really started to get into less than why things had happened when I was a child, and more into that whole compassion about him and my family. And I think it's very normal if you have dramatic and challenging childhoods, to be angry for a period of time. And then as you start to realize that this was just humans doing the best that they could do. And that compassion comes in one start to understand more about their motivations. So I had pretty much for about 1020 years, been spending quite a small fortune traveling around the world and doing a number of different courses, and training on a train, do Martinez jinbao, cine facilitator trades this track that I did a insight forecast, which is a month long leadership course they're in California, in LA. So I had spent and invested quite a small fortune. And then I came back to Australia to Sydney. And it was an interesting, I didn't want to say, midlife crisis, but it was kind of approaching that idea where I've been working in it. And I've been CIO, run my own company, and being CEOs or charity companies, etc. And I also had spent that same 20 years in this healing, Journey training, becoming a coach facilitator. And when I wrote my book on mindful leadership, what I realized was that the the crossover point, was something in this mindfulness space. But me being a very practical kind of person. It wasn't just about meditation, it was about implementing it and how people implemented it, no small things like if you're having a meeting, and it's going on for a period of time, you get everybody to stand up and shift chairs. And by shifting chairs, you rewire the brain, because people are looking at the language differently or talking to each other differently. So all these little tools and tips that I've been picking up along those years, and then decided ik, I wrote the book, mindfulness wasn't quite it. And then it was really in that cocoon period called COVID, where we had an opportunity to spend more time thinking about what were we really doing and why we're here that I realized I was actually here to support makeup, people more about empowering them to build a successful mindset. And as soon as I hit on that, everything put away, click, click, click around the experiences I've had in my own life, the trainings I've done. And what evolved from that was this real clarity for me that, you know, this is what I'm here to do, is to support people to feel empowered, that they too can create a successful mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 28:23 So when did you actually publish the book, mindful leadership?   Michele Gennoe ** 28:28 So I published a book about six years ago now, and we republished it about two years ago. And it's been, you know, what Awards, the time, and it's become such an integral part of the way that we work with people and we help them on their journey. It's, again, being an educator by this stage in my life. The book has award winning and leading business people like Gordon Cairns and heads of different areas here, Australia, might not be as well known overseas, but they have case studies in the book. But it also has these exercises. So people read the book of Egypt, chunk size pieces. This is the topic we're talking about. This is the case study. And then there's the exercises to help people to make sure they've learned the concepts that they've just learned. And so for me, it's a tool that I've used and been incredibly grateful for ever since we arrived at about six years ago. Well, you   Michael Hingson ** 29:32 talk about in the book, the fact that the steps to be successful are not complicated or hard. What are some of the steps that you talk about?   Michele Gennoe ** 29:45 So I haven't had a marketing background again, I describe it in terms of seven pays. But so this purpose, what I'll just talk about is purpose. I know people talk about the concept of why do we do things and purpose, etc, etc. And there's many different ways, you know, from using values to this to that. I now have a TV show and I asked people about what does success mean to them. And when they're answering one of the interesting things that comes up less often than I thought is this whole idea of the while the purpose, because again, in everyday life, you don't think about your purpose, you don't think about your wife, you think about the I've got to get the kids to school, I've got to this good or that. So when you bring it down to purpose and your why, for me, it's a much more practical thing. Yeah. What is it that gets people out of bed in the morning, when it's cold and dark, or when they've got to take care of the kids. And a large part of that a large part of the purpose of a why in that sense, is actually to do with more of your innate, what you feel like, like I was sharing for myself, you were here, and what you're on the planet to do. And I feel like many coaches and facilitators, when they're talking about purpose, it's still like a very big kind of thing. And it was for me for many years, I'm not exempt from this. But I feel like you have to the great philosophers of all use to sit with these kinds of concepts for many, many years. And even in Eastern religions, you would have mystics that would go off and sit in caves for many years or something, because they sat in that world with this concept of why am I here? And what am I doing? And I feel like for me, my book, and the way that it helps people to understand how they are as a mindful leader, helps them to connect in a deeper way. And in a very practical way, with what is their purpose, their the essence of why they feel like being here. And it may be to raise a family, it may be to support some loved ones older or younger. It could be all sorts of different things. But it comes back to who you think on that issue.   Michael Hingson ** 32:18 How do you teach people to become a little bit more introspective and analytical to think about these things? Because most people say I just don't have time to really stop and do that sort of thing.   Michele Gennoe ** 32:33 So it's a great question, because it's funny, I used the example earlier of a bundle of this $3. Because I think it's the same thing with people and what I call mental well being. So I'm not talking about mental health, and that's for professional, other kinds of professions. I'm talking about, well being and mental well being. So do you spend the $1, on your mental well being? Or do you wait until you're a bit wobbly and spin the $3. So we have a program called the mindset and makeover program. And in a similar way to what I was saying before, it's very, very practical. So we cover the three years of resilience, of purpose, and of influence. So these three foundational areas help people influence is the easiest one to talk about. It's very much with, when you're connecting with who you are, why you're here, you then project that in your social media, and you're this and that and your LinkedIn. So that you're presenting a congruent, and the key here is congruent image about who you are to the world. So you're not kind of different people to different things. And unfortunately, most people live like that. They live like, I'm a man over here, and I'm update over there and under this and all that. But they're not congruent, you know, I'm, I'm Michael, I'm Michelle, I'm Tom, I've missed I met the label of who they are, or what they do, more importantly, defined. So that's that's very much about, you know, the influence part. The resilience part is helping people to implement more and more of those or companies as well, because companies, companies to influence implement more and more like I shared about the HR policies, well, you want to spend $1 to keep somebody rather than $3 to lose them. Most people leave because they've got bad managers. So what kind of management leadership training do you have, especially in queue to help managers and then the purpose part I spoke about, we're helping people, you know, really to take the time we don't have obviously the time to go and sit in caves or to spend that kind of time going in depth But what you can. And what we do influence people with is taking time away from devices. I like to describe it as when you were a child, and you were playing out in the backyard or this or that, or whatever, you were in that kind of free flow, and that that time standing still space. So as an adult, what we want to do is recreate those play that that sensation, so that you actually had the opportunity on for your brain to kind of reset, and to allow that creativity become bold. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 35:36 all too often, we just don't take any time during the day to think about what we did what we're doing, where we're not taught to be introspective or analytical. And I think that it's important that we work on doing some of that, so that we can really look at what happened today. And how did that all go? Why did it go the way it did? What do I learn from that? Because ultimately, I have to teach myself, whoever I am, what to do to go forward. And people can advise me all day long, but I still have to be the one to teach myself to do it.   Michele Gennoe ** 36:17 You're so right. And I think one of the key areas within those three sections that we work with people on is this level of self talk. So it's not just throughout the day going, Oh, I could have done that better, or I should have done that better. It's actually throughout the day, picking yourself up when you're doing that. And going well, why did I think that? Why Why was I had in myself? Why did I expect differently, and helping people to be the funniest thing, but after all these years, and all the different things that I've done, the key to everything that I've found is actually kindness. And a lot of what we're doing even that's quite practical tools for the business for the individual. What I've found is that actually, we're teaching people at its essence to be kinder. And it's, it sounds quite terrible, but it's actually so true. Just be kind to do. So be kinder in your companies be kinder, if you're leading people, they are having a tough time, just like do and everybody needs to just be kind. It doesn't get much more complicated than that. It's just about kindness.   Michael Hingson ** 37:34 Yeah, well, and kindness. If you if you become more kind, you also become more conscious of what it means to be more kind and, and you become more conscious of why it's important that we do things in a way that helps us be more kind more gentle, to quote George Bush Senior, but to be more of a person that is focused on improving rather than just criticizing or being negative, or it's got to be my way. That's the only way that works. If that makes sense. And I   Michele Gennoe ** 38:21 use this example. All it does, because I use this example all the time. And it's a little bit of a cliche, but it's about when you're watching a child learn to walk and they follow the stand up, follow the stand up. You wait to see people around that child going stupid child, your terrible child, why don't you know how to walk yet, and you should know it, you've done it once, all of these kinds of negative self talk or negative reflections. So as adults, you know, bringing that same kind of support of, well, you've never done that before. And you do really, really well. In fact, Greg Norman and some of the other great sporting giants that I've studied over the years, one of the interesting things that they talk about, because if they play a game of golf, or whatever it is, and then they replay it, at the end, they actually look at all of the things that they did well first, so that they can replay in their mind so that I can hit that ball and play that basketball shot really well. And then they replay the things that they needed to improve. And so they identify it needed to do this differently. And then what they'll do is they'll actually go through in their mind because again, the mind doesn't matter if it's real. If it's if it's not real in the mind. They'll go through it and they'll actually go okay, I needed to turn a little bit more to get that hook or I need to do this one jump a little bit higher. And they'll do that in their mind and they'll rehearse the thing that they need to improve on. But they won't sit there And this is very human. And it's very sad that we do this, but actually have this negative self talk, I should have done that better, I should have a session about should have whatever. So even if we can, you know, the 1% of our day, catch us off with those kinds of thoughts and improve on them, then we can build, I think of them as like mental wellness muscles, we can build and improve on our mental wellness.   Michael Hingson ** 40:27 Well, it is, it is all about establishing the mindset that you're talking about as well. And it is a muscle it is something that has to be developed, it is something that you have to practice to truly bring about. But when you do it, and you do it well, it makes such a difference in your own life much less than the lives of other people.   Michele Gennoe ** 40:51 It does. And just as a comparison, again, going back to the you know, sitting in a cave and being able to get to this point, I remember I saw an interview with the Dalai Lama one time, where somebody asked him, you know, you've been exiled from your country or this, you know, that all of the terrible, terrible difficult things that have happened to him and to the Tibetan people. And they said, but you're still you know, such a happy, positive person, how do you do it, you know, there's the light of the country of the people, the listener of mine, honestly, mind, and he was saying he had to work at it, he would go and meditate every day. And if those negative kind of thoughts or self talk would come up, he would meditate on it to clear it, so that he could come back into his level of balance, and then being on net balance in the world. So like I said, and as people know, it's not necessarily an easy journey, and it can take some time. You don't necessarily need to go away and meditate for two hours, three hours, whatever it is, but taking that two seconds, 10 seconds, to think and go. What was that thought that I was just doing that was actually beating myself up or beating that other person up? Can I find some kindness? Can I find some compassion? And can me can I in that journey to finding it for myself more, essentially, also bring myself back into a form of balance. So that in that balance state, I can keep focusing on where I want to go with that successful mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 42:38 Yeah, well, and the reality is that we all this, as far as I know, go to sleep at night. And it would be a simple task to take a few minutes. As we're preparing to fall asleep, once we're in bed to think about and meditate on things, it may very well be that you can't necessarily do it at other times during the day, although I think it's like anything else. If it is enough of a priority, you will find the time to do it.   Michele Gennoe ** 43:10 I think so. And I did a course many years ago, and we have to practice something every day. And I thought, Oh, how am I going to make this part of my everyday routine. And ever since then, I have done this practice whilst I'm in the shower. Now, it might seem like a funny thing. But if you think about it, most people we get in the shower, you actually kind of an autopilot. Now, you've washed your hair the same way you wash your body the same way every day. So to actually be programming into your mind and into your brain while you're in the shower. I'm this on that whatever affirmation or whatever positive thought or positive self direction that you want. It can take a little practice, of course at first, but it's actually what I would think of as dead time. Because you do in a sense, mentally go to sleep because it's an automated response. Brush my teeth, Do this, do that. So if you can, because not everybody people when they're going to sleep at night there can be a little bit tired or distracted about something. But if you can think in the morning when you get up in that two seconds, 10 seconds and most people's showers are a bit longer than that. And if you can think in the morning, by okay, yes, I know that I've got to do this, that and whatever was the actual day, but this precious time that I have to myself, without the husband and the kids without the boss without the whatever. This precious time I have to myself. I'm going to say the things to myself. I'm going to be kind I'm going to be compassionate. I've got this I'm going to focus on the positive things today. And I'm going to be okay, whatever the affirmation and the words are for you. That will help you to keep building those muscles and then you know taking it from On outside of the shell, that every time you open a door as you open a door, or this is the opportunities, the new opportunity, this is the opening for new opportunities to come into my life as you open the door. There's lots of little tricks that you can use at work at home, wherever, to actually start to programming, that positive mindset. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 45:24 And there's no magical, it has to be done this time, or at this time in this way. So I like to do a lot of meditating, when it's really quiet. And the shower, I can tune out the shower, but it's still not the same as when it's quieter. But that's me. And I think you raised a very good point, there is for whatever length of time you're in the shower, it is time that you are doing something very automatic. So you could let your mind you could teach your mind to look at other things while you're taking the shower. Exactly.   Michele Gennoe ** 46:06 And in the same way as you're opening a door. So these are just different examples, because I know many people talk about before you go to sleep, have a gratitude journal have this habit that. And also human people say that they'd love to do that, but they forget. Yeah. Whereas in the morning, you can be a little bit more like or more focused on what you're going to be doing for the day. And also importantly, focused on how you want to be showing up for you during the day. Because you may be going, having a little bit of a tough time here. And I'm so busy, I've got no time for me, no time for all the things I need to do for me, I'm just there for the family, the job to this side, whether it's opening a door, doing it in the shower, find what works for you, as a simple, everyday prompt, that doesn't need you to do something extra on top of what you're already doing.   Michael Hingson ** 47:07 Yeah, the reality is, if we really could analyze everything about our day, we could find time to do this. But it's a matter again, of making it a priority to do that. And   Michele Gennoe ** 47:20 that's the key word the priority. And that's why I like to use that mark an example of you know, one dollars versus $3. Yeah, and people, you know, as you get older, you start to realize, well, actually, yeah, that $1 is me doing a bit more exercise a bit more this a bit more of that. And so you make more of an effort. But yeah, especially for younger viewers or longer younger listeners, recognize and discerning start those positive behaviors and look at the positive building positive mindset. You build those habits into your everyday life?   Michael Hingson ** 47:58 Well, when did you start your own business and go strictly on your own?   Michele Gennoe ** 48:04 So I've been doing on purpose transformation now for 12 years, I can't believe how quickly time flies. It's pretty amazing. And I was thinking about it when I was reflecting for the show. And you know, the journey that we it's kind of been on everything from the first business card, I think we're actually getting a website now. So it's been quite a journey over that time.   Michael Hingson ** 48:35 Well, and and it's keeping you busy, and you've dealt with people all over the world, you had the experience to do that. And you've been able to consult for with people throughout the world and helping people learn this whole concept of successful mindset. And you also started a TV show, as I understand it.   Michele Gennoe ** 48:59 Yes, yes. One of the interesting things to come out of COVID. So as the world as we all were shutting down and, and learning to live differently, much more in this online world, like here through this medium. One of the things that I was doing was running a lot of workshops to help friends and creating materials all the time to help with different tools to later I wasn't even successful that it was about getting out of the fear mindset that people out of fear that what was happening and into more of a stabilized. I'm gonna get through this mindset. And so we out of that came the mindset Michelle show, and it's been such a joy, interviewing people and technology now. Wow, what an opportunity, interviewing people from all over the world, spreading this vision of a saber show as a like a lighthouse in amongst social media. And there's so much negativity in the world and so much negativity being shared across the world, that the show is like this lighthouse of positivity and positive information. And everyday people and not so everyday people come on show share, about how they have created their successful mindset. And like we've talked about today, they share the tools and tips and suggestions, everything from sleeping better through to laughter, we've been very, very lucky. And I've been very surprised with sometimes the, like, I had a paraglider that came on the show and had her three step process for reading successful mindset. And so I've been blown away at the incredible people coming on the show, sharing their gifts, sharing experiences, and being part of this lighthouse of positivity, sharing how anybody I believe in the world can create and be empowered and create that positive mindset for themselves. What   Michael Hingson ** 51:13 are some of the common themes that you hear from people who come on the show?   Michele Gennoe ** 51:17 So interestingly, I never really heard, and I thought I'd like heard people talk about money, and then give a caveat, and then come back to money. But I guess one of the things that has been really interesting is people coming on the show. And the thing is, Pete main thing has been about that, again, in a strange way being about empowerment. So it's about having that freedom to choose when they're working on how they're working. So whether it's a CEO of a company, or a small business owner, the things that they keep talking about, and I think it's one of those things that's going to come up more as a societal trend. Is this focus on time? How much of my time can I control, and can I choose to do things in. So people are not necessarily saying that they don't want to go to work, or they don't want to work for this person or that person. But even the working from home phenomenon that has come through now, people that I interview, that are working on companies or running companies, that the theme keeps coming back the underlying parts that freedom around choosing how and what I do with my time, and when I do it. And I think that the second biggest thing is still about joy. So once people have talked about the freedom around choosing what they can do with their time, it's also about what brings them joy. And for some of the luckier people that I've had on the show, they obviously only now doing things that bring them joy in working with clients and working in organizations that bring them joy. But for most people, it's that journey towards that kind of utopian lifestyle that they're on. And for them, it's more about that transition, you know, whether it's children on work, or husband and wife are called family, aging parents and work juggling all of those different areas of life. And they talk about freedom, and then the joy that it brings to them. And so much less like you might have thought of around the money and kind of element. It's much more about, again, like I said at the beginning of the show, around those human drivers that seemed to be a constant no matter where we are in history and society.   Michael Hingson ** 53:47 So what do you get out of doing the show? Why do you do it?   Michele Gennoe ** 53:49 One of the things I love so much about doing the show is that I think I'm a little bit of a storyteller. I'm a storyteller. And so when I'm hearing other people tell me their stories, like we started when I was talking about the different lenses and my curiosity, when I'm hearing people talking, and I hear the story, and I really get the journal. And there was another gentleman that came on that was a finance coach. And I thought I can get to hear about finance and some coaching etc. And he started talking about his children, and he had come close to having mental breakdowns etc. And he was sharing that his children in the show and their habits etc. The creating a successful mindset and he had observed and worked with them. And this fabric of him as a human being him being brave and sharing his story and coming on the show. This for me is you know, if my reason for being here is to help too. empower people to create that successful mindset, when I'm hearing how people have gone and done that on their own journey, because you don't always need a coach, but at different times, you may need a coach. But these people that are coming on the show that they're talking about their gyms in such a beautiful way, in sharing about how they have created their successful mindset.   Michael Hingson ** 55:23 So for you, who are some of the people that you look up to that you regard is really successful? Or you'd like their mindset in the way they are?   Michele Gennoe ** 55:33 I think that there's a few there like the Dalai Lama example I shared, I think there's a few people. And what I would say is what I think that they are as a shining example of being themselves being purveying warts and all. An older example might be somebody like belly cuddly, who was really good example of someone that's found his niche as a comedian, and has understood that he's got many a demon and lives with those demons. And it's an integrated part of the budget as Billy, come on, all the way through to modern times when you look at someone like Ed Sheeran, I mean, can you even begin to imagine what it would be like to stand at Wembley Stadium with just you and look at her, honestly, that that takes, it's not just the musical talent, the mental talent to go from as a kid standing in your lounge room playing the guitar through friends and families, who as a younger man, standing at Wembley, with just no orchestra nervous now that all of those different things that he did when I stood on up mentally, and I think these, for me are examples of where people are living true to who they are true to their nature, embracing the God given talents, and they are incredibly talented people, but they also work very, very hard. It's not like they got the talent and then didn't have to do anything, they work very hard. But they also have that roundness, that wholeness of the life of sharing who they are, as well. So they don't pretend that they are the best, this best, that best whatever, and that they don't have the same foibles. Everybody else. So these two great male examples, I think, and the female side, you know, there's a number Angular Merkel is probably a big girl crush on Angular Merkel, for exactly the same kinds of reasons her and her husband lived in a tiny flat in Berlin the whole time, she was chancellor of Germany. Now, she could have changed. She was a science teacher, and she could have changed and moved to a bigger house and the diversity that she was actually perfectly happy to England were living where she was living. And being with her husband, she didn't need it, all the scandals and all the other bits and pieces. So I think you can see a theme here where the people that I admire are the ones comfortable, it's an old expression, again, that comfortable in their own skin, successful at what they do, and they work very hard at it. And they don't angler again. Yeah, big girl crush. I didn't try and fit in with the other world leaders by going getting a big mansion. She stayed true to what was important to her. So she didn't feel the pressure from social media or, or any other medium to fit in. She felt comfortable in her own skin. Yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 58:52 Which is really the best. You've got to if you can't, well, if you feel comfortable in your own skin, if you really are that way, then that's what real happiness is is all about. It isn't about lots of money or anything else. First and foremost, you have to be comfortable and like you like yourself, and do what you like to do and enjoy it no matter where it goes and how it goes. Exactly.   Michele Gennoe ** 59:21 I interviewed somebody the other day that had some really good points about perhaps your job or your day job is not which what gives you sparkle joy or lifelong fulfillment. Because your habit or your What does give you joy. So if you like singing, but you're not a good singer, or many people play sport when they're younger and then realize that can't be an elite athlete when they grow up. And I think that the points that Gary Professor Gary Martin, were making were very true. Oh, reloading. I think that those points were very true because not everybody can be a Billy Connolly and Sharon or Angular Merkel. So being comfortable with your own skin, and also recognizing that what you're doing in life is all there to support them.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:19 Well, let me ask you one last question, then what's in the future for Michelle, and the TV show and all of that? Well,   Michele Gennoe ** 1:00:27 we're coming to the end of our third year. And it's really, really exciting. And again, I'm so so incredibly grateful to all of the different people that has come through and been on the show, and we've got two more years to go. And then it's going to be so exciting, we'll all be coming out five days a week, for 50 weeks of the year. And being that lighthouse, you know, if people are having a good day, or bad, or whatever day, they will know that they can tune in and see an expert in whatever field talking about how they created their successful mindset. And for me, you know, this is a passion of love. It's something I'm very passionate about, about giving back and supporting people, empowering people. And I thank you so much for having me come on the show today, Michael, because the more that people hear about the show and connecting, we're also going to, of course, be looking for more guests. So people listening and want to come away, come on the show, then, you know, please reach out, we're always happy to have more people come on the show. And my passion. And my dream is that one day, anywhere in the world, if somebody goes, you know, I'm not having that crowded day, I need to have a bit of a lift, I need to, you know, reset and come back. I don't have a door handle or shower nearby. And it's not the end of the day, I can't meditate. I've got you know, five minutes on this bus and now tune into the show, and listen to somebody talking about how to had a tough time, but they use these tips on suggestions to create a successful mindset. That would be my vision for where we going next with the show. Well,   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:17 I look forward to having the opportunity to be on it next weekend.   Michele Gennoe ** 1:02:24 Yes, I'm talking to you and ask me similar kinds of questions of you, Michael?   Michael Hingson ** 1:02:30 Well, I want to thank you very much for being here with us today. And spending all this time this has been fun. And I have enjoyed it. I hope people have been inspired. And will go find your book and read it and sit in and seek you out. How do they do that? If somebody wants to talk with you and maybe use your services? How do they do that.   Michele Gennoe ** 1:02:53 So the best way to contact me is through LinkedIn. So Michele, Gennoe, it's Michele with one L for those people listening. And then Gennoe is G e n n o e is also my website is called Michelegennoe.com. So it's fairly easy. You can also get the book mindful leadership on Amazon. So it's available through that and wherever you are listening to this in the world.   Michael Hingson ** 1:03:22 Cool. Well, thank you again for doing this. And I want to thank you for listening to us today. We really appreciate you being here. I hope that Michelle has given you some good things to think about. I appreciate you being here as well. If you'd like to reach out to me, I would love to hear from you hear your thoughts about the show hear your thoughts about anything else. And of course if you know anyone else who might be a good guest, Michele, same for you would love to hear from you. We're always looking for more guests on a stoppable mindset. You can reach me at Michael m i c h  a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com. Or go to our podcast page www dot Michael hingson.com/podcast. And Michael Hingson is m i c h a e l h i n g s o n  all one word. So love to hear from you. And wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We value that very highly. We really appreciate all the inputs and all the things that people have to say. And we especially do of course do love five star rating. So I hope that you'll give us one as well as Michelle one more time. Thanks for being here and we're really looking forward to people's comments and seeing you again next weekend. Thank   Michele Gennoe ** 1:04:40 you so much again, Michael has been an absolute honor is such a privilege to be on your show and to all your listeners and viewers. Thank you I really appreciate you saying God bless you and wish you all the best   Michael Hingson ** 1:04:59 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Demand for high-end living is on the rise and Nobroker's subscription plan just doesn't cut it anymore. So it introduced a new postpaid plan to entice wealthy property owners. Funnily enough, the way it works is pretty much how traditional brokers earn their brokerage. This goes against the basic premise with which Nobroker was started almost a decade ago. So why has Nobroker switched up its strategy? And why is it going down the road it was so fundamentally against? Tune in to find out. 

In this episode, we sit down with Jarod, a long-time AAC member, to discuss a crazy accident he had at his home crag in Missouri, and how he utilized the AAC's rescue benefit to cover the cost of his medical expenses. If you've been wondering if the AAC's rescue benefit is for you, Jarod's story helps explain how it works. We dive into the quirky concept of “girdle traverses” or mulitpitches that go sideways, and analyze his accident— the decisions he made, how traversing complicates gear placements, and the close calls he had. Funnily enough, Jarod also did a FA on that same wall—putting up Missouri's potentially longest rock climb with Jeremy Collins, and this FA made it into the American Alpine Journal! We discuss the vision behind this 8-pitch traverse, what went into making it happen, the silliness of climbing, the unique belay tactics for traversing, and more! ** Last change to get your 80's-vibes limited edition t-shirt when you join, renew, or donate in the month of June 2024. Learn more at americanalpineclub.org/vibe24.

Books Mentioned Happy Medium by Sarah Adler Mrs. Nash's Ashes by Sarah Adler Spitting Gold by Carmella Lowkis The Rom Commers by Katherine Center Tea Gratitude Tea by Plum Deluxe

Today's episode is extra special because it is a conversation with my beautiful son Leroy, who is now 22 years old.  We start our dialogue about what constitutes a good relationship and then explore what fosters that.  We ended up going into some deep dives about education and values at home, the importance of community and teachers, the importance of self expression and freedom that we give to our children. We discuss in reflection the priorities that I have endeavored to bring into my parenting with Leroy - to see if he also thinks they were a good idea.  We were going to talk about intuition, and Leroy mentions intuition a couple of times, but these topics seemed a lot more relevant to you and our audience. I will have more conversations with Leroy I hope on the show because a parent child relationship is always in the process of change and growth. As he talked about adolescence and his experience of identity changes, it felt so relevant to our new understanding of matresence and patresence (and even menopause and andropause too). I wonder if we can, as a society, be more compassionate for all of these phases of change. Then, we can also connect and feel the privilege of having so many deep feelings during these times—as Leroy explains, he even misses them.  We chat about my regrets as a mum and the regulation of the nervous system. Plus, the latest research and discoveries about our awakened brain, the protection of spirituality, connection, and perspective in our lives. As you will hear, he is a very intelligent and very insightful young man, if I do say so myself. He is my greatest gift, and I couldn't be prouder. But we certainly are not perfect, as you will hear in the conversation. (There is some swearing, so only for adult ears.) I hope you have a few laughs, and I look forward to sharing more conversations with you next season, where we're going to launch with an amazing chat about boobs and feeding our babies.  It is winter here in Australia, so it feels like time to be a little quieter and more inward. I'm finding my energy is deeply creative right now, during the cooler months. As I dive into the finer details of editing my book, I just changed the title. Funnily enough, I was reminded that this was the title I had five years ago when I first sparked the idea. The creative process is a wild one, and I feel really grateful to be in it as grateful as I am almost to being a mum. Sending lots of love to you and your tribe. Please help others by sharing or reviewing this episode - as we'd love to hear from you, too. What touched you and what do you want to hear more of? Have a beautiful birth, enjoy your parenting and live a life you love. Nadine xx Links: Website https://shebirths.com/ Weekend courses https://shebirths.com/weekend-birthing-classes/ Online course's: https://shebirths.com/online-birthing-classes/ Insta https://www.instagram.com/shebirths/                          

Nathaniel Popper just published his latest book, "The Trolls of Wall Street," covering the Wall Street Bets phenomenon. Funnily enough, his book comes at a time when there are striking similarities with the current memecoin mania in crypto.  In this episode, Popper explores the rise of online investing communities like Wall Street Bets and their reflection of broader societal changes, particularly among young men.  He also touches on the parallels between the trolling culture of these communities and the rise of figures like Donald Trump, and delves into the hidden dangers and psychological influences of memes in modern investing. Show highlights: 01:21 The rise of online money communities and the shift towards investing based on ideas rather than traditional financial fundamentals 04:06 How the changing roles of young men in society have influenced the growth of crypto and online financial communities 13:36 How Robinhood's design choices changed retail investing, sparking FOMO and controversy by making trading as easy as a swipe 18:04 The hidden dangers of memes in modern investing, and how they balance fostering community with driving speculation 22:56 Why Trump's ties to the crypto community highlight the mix of serious intent and trolling 30:07 Crypto News Recap Visit our website for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.com Thank you to our sponsors! iTrustCapital Polkadot Guest Nathaniel Popper, author of The Trolls of Wall Street Links Previous coverage of Unchained on memecoins: Unchained: Why Memecoins Have Been 2024's Most Profitable Crypto Trade: Ansem and Kelxyz - Ep. 641 BRETT Becomes First Memecoin on Base to Reach $1 Billion in Market Cap DWF Labs to Invest in Memecoins, Onchain Data Reveals LADYS Transactions Celebrity Tokens Continue to Bleed With Some Memecoin Traders Losing Six-Figures The book: Blockworks: What do memecoins and meme stocks have in common?: A review of ‘The Trolls of Wall Street' Fortune: Q&A with the author of ‘The Trolls of Wall Street': Gambling, conspiracies, and the return of Roaring Kitty,  Meme culture WSJ:  Meme Stocks Are Back, but Fund Investors Moved On Meet the ‘Degen' Traders Fueling the Latest Meme-Stock Mania CoinDesk: In Defense of Meme Coins What else could memecoins be? By Vitalik Buterin Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Nathaniel Popper, author of The Trolls of Wall Street, talks about how Wall Street Bets and memecoins reflect broader societal changes, including the shifting status of men.Listen to the episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Pods, Fountain, Podcast Addict, Pocket Casts, Castbox, Amazon Music, or on your favorite podcast platform.Nathaniel Popper just published his latest book, "The Trolls of Wall Street," covering the Wall Street Bets phenomenon. Funnily enough, his book comes at a time when there are striking similarities with the current memecoin mania in crypto. In this episode, Popper explores the rise of online investing communities like Wall Street Bets and their reflection of broader societal changes, particularly among young men. He also touches on the parallels between the trolling culture of these communities and the rise of figures like Donald Trump, and delves into the hidden dangers and psychological influences of memes in modern investing.Show highlights:The rise of online money communities and the shift towards investing based on ideas rather than traditional financial fundamentalsHow the changing roles of young men in society have influenced the growth of crypto and online financial communitiesHow Robinhood's design choices changed retail investing, sparking FOMO and controversy by making trading as easy as a swipeThe hidden dangers of memes in modern investing, and how they balance fostering community with driving speculationWhy Trump's ties to the crypto community highlight the mix of serious intent and trollingVisit Unchained for breaking news, analysis, op-eds, articles to learn about crypto, and much more: unchainedcrypto.comThank you to our sponsors!iTrustCapitalPolkadotGuestNathaniel Popper, author of The Trolls of Wall StreetLinksPrevious coverage of Unchained on memecoins:Unchained: Why Memecoins Have Been 2024's Most Profitable Crypto Trade: Ansem and Kelxyz - Ep. 641BRETT Becomes First Memecoin on Base to Reach $1 Billion in Market CapDWF Labs to Invest in Memecoins, Onchain Data Reveals LADYS TransactionsCelebrity Tokens Continue to Bleed With Some Memecoin Traders Losing Six-FiguresThe book:Blockworks: What do memecoins and meme stocks have in common?: A review of ‘The Trolls of Wall Street'Fortune: Q&A with the author of ‘The Trolls of Wall Street': Gambling, conspiracies, and the return of Roaring Kitty, Meme cultureWSJ: Meme Stocks Are Back, but Fund Investors Moved OnMeet the ‘Degen' Traders Fueling the Latest Meme-Stock ManiaCoinDesk: In Defense of Meme CoinsWhat else could memecoins be? By Vitalik Buterin-Unchained Podcast is Produced by Laura Shin Media, LLC. Distributed by CoinDesk. Senior Producer is Michele Musso and Executive Producer is Jared Schwartz. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Desi dating apps are vying for parental approval. And their strategy seems to be working. A couple months ago, Agrima Srivastava, a 29-year-old media professional from Lucknow, had an awkward conversation with her mother. She wanted to know if Agrima had ever heard of Indian dating apps, Aisle and Better Half. That was the first time Agrima had an open conversation with her mother about her love life. She told her that she was on dating apps, but homegrown ones like Aisle and Better half, were "just too serious". Funnily enough, the very reason Agrima was hesitant to get on an Indian dating app is why her mom approved of it. And Agrima's mom isn't alone. Many Indian dating apps have positioned themselves as the perfect stop gap between casual dating and marriage. It allows people the autonomy to choose their own partner without their parents getting involved, while also connecting them with a pool of potential partners from similar communities and upbringings. It's like parent-approved dating. How do they work? And do Indian dating app users need them? We speak to Chandni Gaglani, the head of Aisle and three dating app users to find out. Tune in. P.S. while you are here, why don't you check out The Ken's early careers podcast, The First Two Years. You can listen to it here. 

Skip the Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. Your hosts are Paul Marden and Oz Austwick.Download the Rubber Cheese 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report - the annual benchmark statistics for the attractions sector.If you like what you hear, you can subscribe on iTunes, Spotify, and all the usual channels by searching Skip the Queue or visit our website rubbercheese.com/podcast. Show references: https://rubbercheese.com/survey/https://carbonsix.digital/https://www.linkedin.com/in/pmarden/Paul Marden is the Founder and Managing Director of Carbon Six Digital and the CEO of Rubber Cheese. He is an Umbraco Certified Master who likes to think outside the box, often coming up with creative technical solutions that clients didn't know were possible. Paul oversees business development and technical delivery, specialising in Microsoft technologies including Umbraco CMS, ASP.NET, C#, WebApi, and SQL Server. He's worked in the industry since 1999 and has vast experience of managing and delivering the technical architecture for both agencies and client side projects of all shapes and sizes. Paul is an advocate for solid project delivery and has a BCS Foundation Certificate in Agile. https://rubbercheese.com/https://www.linkedin.com/in/thatmarketingbloke/ Oz Austwick is the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, he has a somewhat varied job history having worked as a Blacksmith, a Nurse, a Videographer, and Henry VIII's personal man at arms. Outside of work he's a YouTuber, a martial artist, and a musician, and is usually found wandering round a ruined castle with his kids. Transcription:  Paul Marden: Welcome to Skip the Queue, a podcast for people working in and working with visitor attractions. I'm your host, Paul Martin. In today's episode, I'm joined by my new co host, Oz Austwick, the Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese. Following the success of the Rubber Cheese Visitor attraction website survey in 2022 and ‘23, we're going to look back at how the previous data has stories still to be told and look forward to what the 2024 survey has to offer. Paul Marden: Welcome, Oz. Welcome to Skip the Queue. This is one of our regular Skip the Queue episodes where the Rubber Cheese team take a little bit of time to talk about some of the work that we do.Paul Marden: And I think this episode we want to talk about the Rubber Cheese Visitor Attraction survey of websites that we've done for the last couple of years and what we're planning to do in 2024. So that's going to be a nice conversation for us to have. But we always start these episodes with a little conversation about places that we've been recently. So we spare each other the indignity of the icebreaker questions and talk about an attraction that we've been to recently. So why don't you tell me, Oz, where have you been recently?Oz Austwick: The most recent one was that my wife and I took the kids to Farleigh Hungerford Castle in Somerset. It's English Heritage castle. Absolutely lovely. Nice and rural. I mean, it's just beautiful, lovely ruined castle. There's a fantastic chapel with mediaeval wall paintings. But, you know, I mean, if you like historic sites, if you like castles, it's just a great one.Paul Marden: Wow, that sounds good.Oz Austwick: How about you, Paul? Where have you been recently?Paul Marden: I have been to Portsmouth Historic Dockyard with my daughter. We've been a few times to Mary Rose and really enjoyed that. But this time went. We had an explorer pass, which meant we could go all over the dockyard. So went and saw lots of things. We saw the victory being refurbished and went on board. They've got a lovely old submarine on the other side of the harbour, which is a great place to see. But the bit that really captivated my attention whilst were there that made me think, “Oh, I've got to remember this one to talk about on the podcast” was they had some students there doing exhibition from the university and they were marine biologists and it was just such a lovely opportunity.Paul Marden: They had microscopes, they were talking all about plankton and different types of microorganisms that you find in the water. But my daughter's ten years old and she loves going to museums because I drag them to them all the time. She loves learning about this sort of thing. What I liked about it was you had some 18, 19, 20 year olds who were exposing themselves to kind of a work experience type model, but talking to the kids and showing them. And the kids were learning as they were going. They got lots of opportunities to look through microscopes. They were doing some lovely drawing and art of the microscopic organisms that exist in the water.Paul Marden: And I just thought, I can talk about amazing jobs and what you can go and do in science and what you could do in different of roles in real life, but there's something about somebody that's only maybe ten years older than you telling you what they're learning at the moment and what learning in a university context looks like and the cool stuff that you get to do. And as amazing as I am, I'm not quite as impressive as a 20 year old.Oz Austwick: And modest too. Paul Marden: Amazing, dad. I say it all the time, but it's not as compelling when I do it. So going to the museum and meeting these young people that are only a little bit older than Millie is and seeing what they do was just. It was such a lovely opportunity. And I know that work experience at museums is quite a controversial subject because I know a lot of people, it can be exclusionary for some people. The only way that you can get into a role is to work unpaid as a volunteer in a museum to get into a role later on. But I just loved the idea that we had these students that were local telling the story of what the University of Portsmouth does in marine biology and how these two major institutions came together.Paul Marden: And you could just see Millie's eyes light up as she learned about this amazing stuff. It was brilliant. I loved it.Oz Austwick: Awesome. Do you know what? I've not been down since. God, it can't have been that long after the Mary Rose landed there. It's a long time ago. Yeah. I was a much younger Oz at that point.Paul Marden: I think you might notice that the Mary Rose looks substantially different maybe than the last time you went.Oz Austwick: Do you know what? It was effectively an aircraft hanger full of water when I was there. So, yeah, definitely go down. And while we're here, I just want to say. And I might check out their lovely new website, too.Paul Marden: Why? Do you know somebody that might have worked on that?Oz Austwick: Yeah. Funnily enough, I do. Yeah. Yeah. Fantastic agency, but let's leave it there.Paul Marden: Yes. So you've just turned up on the podcast and I'm talking to you and.Oz Austwick: Yeah, nobody knows who I am, do they?Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. So why don't you, Oz, just take a few minutes to tell the audience who you are, what you do and why you're here.Oz Austwick: Yeah. Okay, so obviously I'm Oz. I am Head of Commercial at Rubber Cheese, also at Carbon Six, the sister agency. I originally came on board as kind of Head of Marketing and then when Kelly decided to move on, I've taken on some of her role. Obviously you've taken on some of her role as well. So my background is in social media, video first as a content writer in SEO. I've worked in technology, I've worked in healthcare. I've done all sorts of things over the years and I've always kind of found myself back in the world of digital wherever I try and go. So for me, as somebody with a real passion for history and historical sites, there's a story there, maybe for another episode.Oz Austwick: But I love the idea that I can work in an agency doing what I do well for venues and organisations that I really love. And I think that's quite a special thing, to be honest.Paul Marden: It's a bit of a privilege, isn't it, to be telling the stories of some of the places that we're working with.Oz Austwick: To be able to go for a meeting and sit and have coffee with somebody in the middle of one of the most glorious, historically significant buildings in the country. It's just. Yeah.Paul Marden: For a history buff like you, that. That's pretty good.Oz Austwick: It is, yeah. I'm all about the history.Paul Marden: So we are today going to talk a little bit about the Rubber Cheese visitor attraction websites survey and we run that now for a couple of years and we just want to talk a little bit about some of the plans that we've got for the year ahead. But maybe let's recap, what have we done in the last two years and a little bit about the survey in the last year?Oz Austwick: Well, I mean, I guess there'll be people listening who may not have come across the survey before. So I think from a broad context point of view, a few years ago, Kelly, who was the original founder of Rubber Cheese, was looking for industry standard data and it turned out that there wasn't any. And at that point she was faced with two options to either just go, “Never mind, and walk away” or go, “Oh, well, I better do something about it”. And she thankfully took the latter route. So for the last two years, this is year three, Rubber Cheese has put together a survey and sent it out to as many visitor attractions as possible and asked them for their views and their objective figures as well, related to their digital presence.Oz Austwick: So whether that's the marketing side of the website, whether it's e commerce, whether it's ticketing, we want to know it all and then we combine it all together, do our best to analyse the data and publish a report. Obviously, the world of digital changes very rapidly, and obviously when you do something like this for the first time, you're not going to get it quite right. So it's evolved year on year and. Yeah, here we are. And it's evolving again. Right?Paul Marden: Yeah, exactly. So we had, you know, more than double the number of respondents last year compared to the first year. We had some amazing people that came together in London for a launch event in the first year, and then we had a great webinar last year launch.Oz Austwick: I just want to interrupt briefly at this point. If you were at that launch event, then we have already met. I'll leave it there.Paul Marden: Yes, part of the Rubber Cheese family before you were even part of the family. Yeah. So we've had success in the first two years and we've used that report ourselves and we know lots of other people have used it as well. So we've had some lovely conversations with attractions who have used it as part of their pitch process to try to identify what good looks like and how to select other people to work with across their different digital presence. So be at the marketing site, the ticketing engine or whatever. But I think one of the things that you and I both said is that it's a challenge, isn't it? Because we can go looking for stories and then we can tell stories that exist in the data that we find.Paul Marden: But it's not quite the same as when people ask us questions, because they tend to ask us questions we haven't really thought of. And then we go looking at the data in a different light, don't we, and find just amazing things that exist in the data.Oz Austwick: It's a constant surprise to me, both how different every attraction is and yet how they all have certain similarities. You can group them together and you can see these similarities in the data, but most sites, this is something we came across recently. We were going to a meeting with a fairly well known venue that's got two or three different strands to what they do. So we spent a bit of time looking at which of those different strands they actually fit into, because it can be really hard to know how to improve your digital presence, how to make your marketing more effective, if you don't even really know where you're starting from and what the data in the survey allows anyone that wants to access it to do is to see where they fit.Oz Austwick: And you may think that the country park is what you are and the house is second, or you may feel that, I don't know, maybe the adventure playground or the science centre, whatever it is, whichever of those. You may think that you're one, but the data says you're the other and at that point it's not a problem. But at least you need to understand, if you don't have the information, you can't make any decisions that are going to be helpful in the long term. And I think. Sorry, I know I'm talking a lot here, feel free to shut me up.Paul Marden: That's what we're here for.Oz Austwick: I think it's a huge surprise to me that more people aren't coming to us and asking us about this.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely.Oz Austwick: This survey isn't really a cynical way for us to make money. The survey pretty much loses us money year on year, but it's really valuable and I think every time we've done it, the conversation has been, “Do we need to do this again?” And the answer is, well, “Yeah, we do.” Because not only is it a valuable thing to do year on year, but to show how things have progressed and to show those evolving patterns. I think it's really important and it's a phrase I use all the time, but the rising tide floats all the boats together and if we can put this information out there and it helps everyone improve, then great.Oz Austwick: You know, as an industry, those that are part of the industry, those like us that sell into the industry, we all get better at the same time and I think that's a really important point.Paul Marden: Absolutely. And there's loads of things that we're doing this year as we launch the survey to try to improve it so that, you know, you've just been talking about those attractions that are many different things and definitely in previous years we've made it really hard for those attractions that are many different things to be able to identify what they actually are. And that ended up being lots of people saying, I'm an other attraction and our biggest category was other, wasn't it? So we want to try and make it much easier for people to identify themselves.Oz Austwick: I hate Other as a category. I realise it's entirely our fault, you know, if we don't give the right categories and we give you the option to say Other, that's what you're going to tick, but it's the least helpful thing we could possibly do because what does Other actually mean? So we've tried really hard to be more accurate in the choices that we offer in the survey this year.Paul Marden: Yeah. So should we talk a little bit about what we're going to do this year?Oz Austwick: Yeah. Yeah, let's do that.Paul Marden: First of all, we're really fortunate this year that we've got two amazing sponsors that are supporting the survey and the work that we do. So we've been really lucky that our friends at Convious have come back again for the third year running to sponsor and support what we do. And they're sponsoring the digital report and the launch webinar that we'll have towards the end of the season and show everybody what the results are that we found. So we're really appreciative of the work that the team at Convious have done. It's not just a financial sponsorship, it is a real collaboration that they bring to the party and they really do help us a lot.Paul Marden: And then this year that we've also been joined by the team at Expian who are a ticketing platform and they are sponsoring our new Advisory Board, which we'll talk a little bit more about later on. But we asked for people in the sector to come and join us, to advise us and in order to be able to make that a reality, Expian have sponsored that advisory board throughout the entire year. So that's. It's brilliant. It's great that other people are seeing a real value in the thing that we've been doing for the last couple of years and want to sponsor us going ahead and making it better year on year. So thank you to both Convious and Expian for supporting us this year.Oz Austwick: I think just at this point, again, I'd like to interject and maybe a little shamelessly say that there are still a couple of aspects of what we're doing with the survey and the report that it would be really nice if we could maybe get some help from another sponsor. So if you'd like to maybe get involved, we're thinking about an in person launch event like we did in year one. That's a big deal to organise, to run, to fund. So if maybe that's something you'd like to help with, get in touch, that'd be great.Paul Marden: We are always happy for new people to join the party with us and help to support the good work that we will trying to do here. So, yeah, there's more information about that on the website at rubbercheese.com/survey.Oz Austwick: Survey yeah, I think it's maybe worth mentioning the advisory board in a little bit more detail. I know that it's something that you've been really keen on for quite a while now that we try and make it clear that this isn't a digital agency that builds websites for the visitor attraction agency telling you how to have your website and that you should come to us. It's actually an objective report of the digital landscape and that if we can make that more objective and more transparent by getting together a group of experts then we absolutely should.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. We've got an amazing group of people that have agreed to join us. We have more people asking to join than we have the capacity to be able to include in the board, which is humbling in and of itself. And those people who offered, who aren't part of the board this year. That doesn't mean to say we don't appreciate you and we'll be really keen to find other ways in which those people can help us going forwards.Paul Marden: But yeah, we're looking for the board to kind of provide advice and guidance help us. You know, going back to what you were saying a minute ago about people helping us to identify what's important to the sector so that we then go and follow the data, we ask the right questions, we look deeply into the data, we understand where the interesting stories are and then reflect that back to the sector as a whole in the final report. That's so much easier when we've got a board of people that are advising us what matters to the heads of digital of the attractions around the country. So yeah, we've also got some really helpful advisors from different sector support organisations. So suppliers like ourselves who know what the larger sector are talking about in different areas.Paul Marden: And those people as well will be helping us to understand what are the right questions to ask. How should we ask them? They'll also be helping us with testing the survey before it goes out into the wild and supporting us with understanding what the answers are at the end of it and what they think are interesting. So I'm really excited about the Advisory Board and totally appreciative of everybody volunteering their time to join that board and giving us that advice. So that's a really exciting thing for us to be doing this year and totally appreciate the work of Expian to sponsor that.Oz Austwick: Absolutely, yeah. Couldn't agree more.Paul Marden: So there's some other things that we're going to do, aren't there, in terms of trying to improve things?Oz Austwick: We've got some goals. Are they ambitious? I don't think they're that ambitious, to be honest. But, yeah, I mean, obviously the most important thing when doing something like this and repeating it on annual basis is that we want to make it more useful. We want to make the data more valuable to the people that need it. So we've spent a lot of time going through the previous survey and looking at what we asked and what we got in response to those questions, whether we got the information we thought we would and whether that information is even of any help to any. I think we've cut it down fairly significantly this year, I think.Paul Marden: Yeah, we've taken a red pen and scored through quite a lot of the questions, haven't we?Oz Austwick: Yeah. I wonder if perhaps maybe people were getting a little bit tired of the survey by the time they got towards the end, because it was really long and it's still quite long, but I think there's very little in it that isn't really, or at least to me, feels really valuable to be able to say, “This is where I am. And if I can compare where I am to the wider industry around me, that would be a helpful thing to be able to do.” And I think pretty much every question does that. We're hopefully going to grow the sample size because year one to year two was a really significant step up. If we get the same size step up or even the same percentage step up, I mean, that would be absolutely incredible. I'm not sure we will, but I think.Oz Austwick: I think we need to keep growing it. We need to get it to more people and make the data in itself more relevant. Because obviously, if you've got a tiny sample size, it's really difficult to draw any conclusions from that data. But if you've got a huge sample size, then you can say that the averages across this are probably relevant. And that's information that I should know.Paul Marden: I talk about that a lot, don't I, when I'm slicing and dicing the data that, you know, sometimes it can be hard to draw conclusions because there's insufficient data there and it could easily be chance that gives the answers that you get.Oz Austwick: Well, absolutely. And it's so hard to look at it and think, is that cause or effect? You know, we can say that there's a pattern or is it just fluke? Paul Marden: Exactly. I think some of the questions, some of the data is illustrative of what the wider sector looks like. So when people answer questions about the content management system that they use by far the most popular one was WordPress. I'm willing to bet good money that is fairly illustrative of the outside world.Oz Austwick: Yes.Paul Marden: Yeah. You know, WordPress is the hands down most popular content management system on the web, so it's not. It's hardly surprising that it is then the most commonly used one in attractions. But some of our numbers around ticketing systems, e commerce systems and some of the conversion rate information as well, I would not be surprised if that is being skewed because the sample size isn't necessarily big enough. So the more people that join, every person that is submitting their data is making a substantial difference to the quality of the answers that we give afterwards. And I also think that kind of the intersectionality of stuff. So when you're talking about historic houses that have got animal based attraction at the same place. Yeah.Paul Marden: When you start to zero in on those smaller sample size or smaller groups, they get so small that it's very hard to draw any conclusions. If we can make the sample size bigger, then those intersectional groups will still be fairly small. If there's a Venn diagram, there's not a lot of overlap in some of these groups and they will be pretty small groups, but you'll still get some interesting answers rather than a sample size of one, which some of the smaller groups do drill down to that at the moment. So the more people, the better. And the more diverse types of attractions that fill in, the better.Oz Austwick: Yeah. I think it's probably worth recognising that some of the groups that people fall into are going to be really small.Paul Marden: Yes.Oz Austwick: I mean, how many safari parks are there in the UK, for example? It's not a lot. And if only one safari park fills in the survey. So if there's a call to action from this bit, it's like, please fill it in.Paul Marden: What else are we going to do? So we talked about simplifying the survey. We want to increase the sample size. We wanted to introduce some new themes as well this year.Oz Austwick: Yes. The survey is designed to represent the digital landscape of the visitor attraction industry in the UK, but obviously there are things happening in the digital world that we've not spoken about in the survey. For example, AI, there's a big. A big amount of development. There's a lot of AI stories hitting the news. People are using it for all sorts of things. We've never asked any questions about it at all. Does anybody use it? Is it relevant? What's going on out there? We don't know. So we're going to be asking a little bit about that. And the other main theme that we've not really looked into before that we're going to be asking a little bit more about is sustainability. It's become really clear over the last sort of six months or so, looking at the conversations we've had with venues.Oz Austwick: Everybody's doing stuff, not everybody's doing the same stuff, not everybody's doing the right stuff, but everybody's doing something. And it would be really nice to know what's standard. And obviously there's stuff on site that you can do at the attraction itself, but there's things you can do around the website and the hosting and the way that your digital presence works. So we're going to be asking a little bit about that as well.Paul Marden: I think in every conversation I've ever had about digital sustainability, I learn a little bit more about the subject. And I can remember there was an amazing speaker at the Umbraco conference a couple of years ago that spoke, who's now a friend of mine, and he just told some amazing stories about the impact of digital on CO2 emissions. And it was, you know, I used to work in an airline. It was fairly clear to see that airlines are fairly polluting. You can see it coming out the back of the plane. But I don't think I'd ever really seriously thought about digital technology being a major contributor to climate change in the way that I now understand it to be. So, finding out what other people are doing, we're willing to bet that quite a lot of attractions will have a sustainability plan.Paul Marden: Fewer will have done any sort of benchmarking of their digital platform, and fewer, again, still will have done anything to actually reduce their CO2 emissions. But that's just instinct. I'm really interested to understand what the actual numbers are at the end of this, because once we start measuring it, we can start improving things as an industry.Oz Austwick: I think it's fascinating, and that goes back to exactly what Polly was talking about when you interviewed her two episodes ago I think.Paul Marden: Something like that.Oz Austwick: About the fact that, you know, we all start from somewhere and you can look at this and think, oh, I'm actually not doing a great job, but you've got to be honest about it because you've got to know where you are. You know, everything that comes to us is completely anonymised. We don't give out anybody's data. We give out, you know, the raw data in a way that means that nobody can track anybody else. So you nothing that you say is going to put, you know, anything that you're maybe a little bit unhappy out there. But if doing this survey forces you to think about what you're doing and look at it and think, actually, maybe I do need to do this, then brilliant. You know what an amazing achievement that will be.Paul Marden: Yeah, absolutely. So we want to enable people to give better answers. So we're going to reduce the number of category type questions that we've got and drill down to real numbers. We'll get better understanding of conversion rates. And there was some other standardisation that we wanted to do, wasn't there?Oz Austwick: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that we noticed that. And again, it's going back to this, trying to reduce the fact that you can just tick other when we're trying to look at what sort of attraction are you when you're filling in the survey. In fairness, we've got a pretty good idea of the different attractions there are out there and we created a fairly good list, but we still got quite a lot of Others. So were kind of looking at how we can improve that list and we thought, well, why not standardise it with a list that's already out there? And it turns out that VisitBritain has a perfectly good list, which is really quite comprehensive.Oz Austwick: So we're using their list for attraction type rather than ours because it allows us to standardise the data a little bit more and hopefully people will already know where they fit. But I think we've also allowed people to tick more than one option this time, which previously we didn't. If you were a historic home that also had a safari park or an adventure playground or something, you'd have to pick which of those am I? And obviously, you know, for the big attractions around the country and for an awful lot of the smaller ones, we would look at them and go, “Oh, they've ticked that. That's odd. I wonder why they've done that.” Whereas now you're able to say, “Actually, I'm three different things.” And that's great, because again, it allows us to be a little bit more granular.Oz Austwick: And if it turns out that maybe there are other attractions that have the same breakdown of what they do as you, that will become clear, hopefully.Paul Marden: So one of the big areas that we want to, we're excited to grow into is that we'll be having a US focused survey for the first time, supported by our friends at Convious.Oz Austwick: Lots of Zs instead of Ss in that one.Paul Marden: Yes, we've had to do some localisation and that will be published alongside the UK version of the survey. And we'll have a US report and a UK report that we'll be launching at the end, thanks to our friends at Convious. But we'll also have versions of the survey localised for attractions in the EU, because there was actually, last year, we got quite a number of european attractions submitting and we think that can improve when the survey tool itself is focused on the EU and is, you know, the numbers that we've got in the survey are denominated in euros rather than in pounds. So, yeah, that's increasing. The number of international responses, especially in North America, is super important for us this year.Oz Austwick: Yeah. And I think it's worth saying that it's quite a potentially valuable thing to do as well, because if we can look at the surveys and say that, weirdly, the UK sites tend to rate here, but us sites rate here for something, why is that? What do they do differently in the US that allows them to be more successful in this instance than we in the UK are here? You know, with any luck, either, we'll be able to say no. Globally, this is all pretty much on a par. So you can see where you set in the world, rather than just in, say, Shropshire. But you could also say, right, well, these guys are doing better. Let's look at what they're doing and try and emulate that and improve what we're doing to bring it in line with what we know is possible.Paul Marden: So lots to change, lots of improvements that we're making. Pretty big ambitions to grow the survey in a number of different ways, but not in the number of questions that are there. So hopefully, it will take less effort for people to submit their responses this time and the survey will be launched around the time that this episode comes out. So you'll be able to go onto rubbercheese.com/survey and follow the links and submit your data, which is pretty exciting for us. We'll be sat there watching the responses rolling in. I got very excited last year, watching people respond.Oz Austwick: I can't wait, genuinely. I know that sounded sarcastic, didn't it? It wasn't supposed to. I genuinely. I'm quite excited about this. Yeah.Paul Marden: You might need to work on your sincerity. There's an area of improvement there are.Oz Austwick: Recording this at the end of the afternoon on a Friday, so, you know, this is as good as you're gonna get, I'm afraid.Paul Marden: So. We're really keen for people to go onto the website and fill in the survey, but there's other things that you want as well, isn't there, Oz?Oz Austwick: Well, for me, I want people to talk to us. I want people to talk about the survey. I want them to talk about last year's survey and the rapport. I want people to come along and say, “Look, it'd be really interesting to know where I sit it in this. This is our attraction. This is what we think. Is it true?” Get in touch, give us a shout, let's have a chat. You know, let's have an excuse to get together with a coffee and a laptop and look at some spreadsheets. But, you know, if there's something that you want to see from the survey moving forwards, because I think it's probably safe to say this isn't going to be the last one we do.Oz Austwick: Then again, let us know if there's things that we aren't talking about and you've got a better viewpoint and you can see that there's a gap in what we're asking. Please let us know because we can't do this by ourselves and we're not really doing it for ourselves. So the more people talk to us, the better, really.Paul Marden: So if you want to talk to us, all the usual social channels that we normally talk about, but also send us email at survey@rubbercheese.com. Both Oz and I will get that. And really keen to spark the conversations and see where it goes from there.Oz Austwick: Yeah. And if we bump into each other at an event or you see me, give me a shout, I'll buy you a coffee. I mean on him, obviously.Paul Marden: Of course. So your episode number one on skip the queue, how was it for you?Oz Austwick: That was all right, actually, wasn't it? Yeah. Okay. I mean, hello. Let's, let's see. Well, I enjoyed it.Paul Marden: I've enjoyed it. Not quite the same as talking to Kelly, but not the same. Not better or worse, just different.Oz Austwick: I'll take that as a compliment.Paul Marden: You take it however you like, mate.Paul Marden: Thanks for listening to Skip the Queue. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave us a five star review. It really helps others find us. And remember to follow us on Twitter for your chance to win the books that have been mentioned. Skip The Queue is brought to you by Rubber Cheese, a digital agency that builds remarkable systems and websites for attractions that helps them increase their visitor numbers. You can find show notes and transcriptions from this episode and more over on our website, SkiptheQueue.fm. The 2023 Visitor Attraction Website Report is now LIVE! Dive into groundbreaking benchmarks for the industryGain a better understanding of how to achieve the highest conversion ratesExplore the "why" behind visitor attraction site performanceLearn the impact of website optimisation and visitor engagement on conversion ratesUncover key steps to enhance user experience for greater conversionsDownload the report now for invaluable insights and actionable recommendations!

Do you get your car serviced regularly? Do you get a yearly check up at the Doctor? Funnily enough we BJJ Folks never do this when it comes to our physical function for rolling. Many of us do not want to know just how bad our injuries and accumulated damage is so we just ignore it until it's so bad we can't function. But what if it didn't have to come to this? JT & Joey are working a check up, a physical assessment that can let you know where you are at and then what to do about it.You may not be aware but for every year of BJJ you do there is a slow accumulation of wear and tear but this can be countered with a good routine of maintenance. When was the last time you had a physical check up? This is your call to action to take better care of yourself so you can enjoy training Jiu-jitsu for the long term.Get Stronger & More Flexible for BJJ  with the Bulletproof For BJJ App- Start your 7 Day FREE Trial:  https://bulletproofforbjj.com/registerStay Hydrated with Sodii the tastiest electrolytes in the Game! Get 15% OFF: BULLETPROOF15 https://sodii.com.au/bulletproofParry Athletic - Best training gear in the game... Get 20% OFF Discount Code: BULLETPROOF20 https://parryathletics.com/collections/new-arrivalsSupport the Show.

Having raked over the council elections in the last episode, Jemma and Marina spend this one dissecting the Mayoral results. It's a win for Andy Burnham, a loss for Andy Street, a win for Ben Houchen and, most thrillingly of all, a loss for Susan Hall. Susan, who spent her time campaigning telling Londoners that where they live is a hellscape of unparalleled proportions. Funnily enough, that strategy didn't work. In this Trawl, enjoy her entirely graceless speech and Khan's humorous one which references the biggest winner of all, Count Binface. The man who wanted to reduce the price of croissants and bring back Ceefax did very well and completely trounced the Britain First candidate who also suffered a huge bout of sour grapes. Fortunately, there was someone in the crowd to put him right. Thank you for sharing and do tweet us @MarinaPurkiss @jemmaforte @TheTrawlPodcastPatreonhttps://patreon.com/TheTrawlPodcastYoutubehttps://www.youtube.com/@TheTrawlTwitterhttps://twitter.com/TheTrawlPodcast

This Friday we're doing a special crossover event in SF with of SemiAnalysis (previous guest!), and we will do a live podcast on site. RSVP here. Also join us on June 25-27 for the biggest AI Engineer conference of the year!Replicate is one of the most popular AI inference providers, reporting over 2 million users as of their $40m Series B with a16z. But how did they get there? The Definitive Replicate Story (warts and all)Their overnight success took 5 years of building, and it all started with arXiv Vanity, which was a 2017 vacation project that scrapes arXiv PDFs and re-renders them into semantic web pages that reflow nicely with better typography and whitespace. From there, Ben and Andreas' idea was to build tools to make ML research more robust and reproducible by making it easy to share code artefacts alongside papers. They had previously created Fig, which made it easy to spin up dev environments; it was eventually acquired by Docker and turned into `docker-compose`, the industry standard way to define services from containerized applications. 2019: CogThe first iteration of Replicate was a Fig-equivalent for ML workloads which they called Cog; it made it easy for researchers to package all their work and share it with peers for review and reproducibility. But they found that researchers were terrible users: they'd do all this work for a paper, publish it, and then never return to it again. “We talked to a bunch of researchers and they really wanted that.... But how the hell is this a business, you know, like how are we even going to make any money out of this? …So we went and talked to a bunch of companies trying to sell them something which didn't exist. So we're like, hey, do you want a way to share research inside your company so that other researchers or say like the product manager can test out the machine learning model? They're like, maybe. Do you want like a deployment platform for deploying models? Do you want a central place for versioning models? We were trying to think of lots of different products we could sell that were related to this thing…So we then got halfway through our YC batch. We hadn't built a product. We had no users. We had no idea what our business was going to be because we couldn't get anybody to like buy something which didn't exist. And actually there was quite a way through our, I think it was like two thirds the way through our YC batch or something. And we're like, okay, well we're kind of screwed now because we don't have anything to show at demo day.”The team graduated YCombinator with no customers, no product and nothing to demo - which was fine because demo day got canceled as the YC W'20 class graduated right into the pandemic. The team spent the next year exploring and building Covid tools.2021: CLIP + GAN = PixRayBy 2021, OpenAI released CLIP. Overnight dozens of Discord servers got spun up to hack on CLIP + GANs. Unlike academic researchers, this community was constantly releasing new checkpoints and builds of models. PixRay was one of the first models being built on Replicate, and it quickly started taking over the community. Chris Dixon has a famous 2010 post titled “The next big thing will start out looking like a toy”; image generation would have definitely felt like a toy in 2021, but it gave Replicate its initial boost.2022: Stable DiffusionIn August 2022 Stable Diffusion came out, and all the work they had been doing to build this infrastructure for CLIP / GANs models became the best way for people to share their StableDiffusion fine-tunes:And like the first week we saw people making animation models out of it. We saw people make game texture models that use circular convolutions to make repeatable textures. We saw a few weeks later, people were fine tuning it so you could put your face in these models and all of these other ways. […] So tons of product builders wanted to build stuff with it. And we were just sitting in there in the middle, as the interface layer between all these people who wanted to build, and all these machine learning experts who were building cool models. And that's really where it took off. Incredible supply, incredible demand, and we were just in the middle.(Stable Diffusion also spawned Latent Space as a newsletter)The landing page paved the cowpath for the intense interest in diffusion model APIs.2023: Llama & other multimodal LLMsBy 2023, Replicate's growing visibility in the Stable Diffusion indie hacker community came from top AI hackers like Pieter Levels and Danny Postmaa, each making millions off their AI apps:Meta then released LLaMA 1 and 2 (our coverage of it), greatly pushing forward the SOTA open source model landscape. Demand for text LLMs and other modalities rose, and Replicate broadened its focus accordingly, culminating in a $18m Series A and $40m Series B from a16z (at a $350m valuation).Building standards for the AI worldNow that the industry is evolving from toys to enterprise use cases, all these companies are working to set standards for their own space. We cover this at ~45 mins in the podcast. Some examples:* LangChain has been trying to establish "chain” as the standard mental models when putting multiple prompts and models together, and the “LangChain Expression Language” to go with it. (Our episode with Harrison)* LLamaHub for packaging RAG utilities. (Our episode with Jerry)* Ollama's Modelfile to define runtimes for different model architectures. These are usually targeted at local inference. * Cog (by Replicate) to create environments to which you can easily attach CUDA devices and make it easy to spin up inference on remote servers. * GGUF as the filetype ggml-based executors. None of them have really broken out yet, but this is going to become a fiercer competition as the market matures. Full Video PodcastAs a reminder, all Latent Space pods now come in full video on our YouTube, with bonus content that we cut for time!Show Notes* Ben Firshman* Replicate* Free $10 credit for Latent Space readers* Andreas Jansson (Ben's co-founder)* Charlie Holtz (Replicate's Hacker in Residence)* Fig (now Docker Compose)* Command Line Interface Guidelines (clig)* Apple Human Interface Guidelines* arXiv Vanity* Open Interpreter* PixRay* SF Compute* Big Sleep by Advadnoun* VQGAN-CLIP by Rivers Have WingsTimestamps* [00:00:00] Introductions* [00:01:17] Low latency is all you need* [00:04:08] Evolution of CLIs* [00:05:59] How building ArxivVanity led to Replicate* [00:11:37] Making ML research replicable with containers* [00:17:22] Doing YC in 2020 and pivoting to tools for COVID* [00:20:22] Launching the first version of Replicate* [00:25:51] Embracing the generative image community* [00:28:04] Getting reverse engineered into an API product* [00:31:25] Growing to 2 million users* [00:34:29] Indie vs Enterprise customers* [00:37:09] How Unsplash uses Replicate* [00:38:29] Learnings from Docker that went into Cog* [00:45:25] Creating AI standards* [00:50:05] Replicate's compute availability* [00:53:55] Fixing GPU waste* [01:00:39] What's open source AI?* [01:04:46] Building for AI engineers* [01:06:41] Hiring at ReplicateThis summary covers the full range of topics discussed throughout the episode, providing a comprehensive overview of the content and insights shared.TranscriptAlessio [00:00:00]: Hey everyone, welcome to the Latent Space podcast. This is Alessio, partner and CTO in Residence at Decibel Partners, and I'm joined by my co-host Swyx, founder of Smol AI.Swyx [00:00:14]: Hey, and today we have Ben Firshman in the studio. Welcome Ben.Ben [00:00:18]: Hey, good to be here.Swyx [00:00:19]: Ben, you're a co-founder and CEO of Replicate. Before that, you were most notably founder of Fig, which became Docker Compose. You also did a couple of other things before that, but that's what a lot of people know you for. What should people know about you that, you know, outside of your, your sort of LinkedIn profile?Ben [00:00:35]: Yeah. Good question. I think I'm a builder and tinkerer, like in a very broad sense. And I love using my hands to make things. So like I work on, you know, things may be a bit closer to tech, like electronics. I also like build things out of wood and I like fix cars and I fix my bike and build bicycles and all this kind of stuff. And there's so much, I think I've learned from transferable skills, from just like working in the real world to building things, building things in software. And you know, it's so much about being a builder, both in real life and, and in software that crosses over.Swyx [00:01:11]: Is there a real world analogy that you use often when you're thinking about like a code architecture or problem?Ben [00:01:17]: I like to build software tools as if they were something real. So I wrote this thing called the command line interface guidelines, which was a bit like sort of the Mac human interface guidelines, but for command line interfaces, I did it with the guy I created Docker Compose with and a few other people. And I think something in there, I think I described that your command line interface should feel like a big iron machine where you pull a lever and it goes clunk and like things should respond within like 50 milliseconds as if it was like a real life thing. And like another analogy here is like in the real life, you know, when you press a button on an electronic device and it's like a soft switch and you press it and nothing happens and there's no physical feedback of anything happening, then like half a second later, something happens. Like that's how a lot of software feels, but instead like software should feel more like something that's real where you touch, you pull a physical lever and the physical lever moves, you know, and I've taken that lesson of kind of human interface to, to software a ton. You know, it's all about kind of low latency of feeling, things feeling really solid and robust, both the command lines and, and user interfaces as well.Swyx [00:02:22]: And how did you operationalize that for Fig or Docker?Ben [00:02:27]: A lot of it's just low latency. Actually, we didn't do it very well for Fig in the first place. We used Python, which was a big mistake where Python's really hard to get booting up fast because you have to load up the whole Python runtime before it can run anything. Okay. Go is much better at this where like Go just instantly starts.Swyx [00:02:45]: You have to be under 500 milliseconds to start up?Ben [00:02:48]: Yeah, effectively. I mean, I mean, you know, perception of human things being immediate is, you know, something like a hundred milliseconds. So anything like that is, is yeah, good enough.Swyx [00:02:57]: Yeah. Also, I should mention, since we're talking about your side projects, well, one thing is I am maybe one of a few fellow people who have actually written something about CLI design principles because I was in charge of the Netlify CLI back in the day and had many thoughts. One of my fun thoughts, I'll just share it in case you have thoughts, is I think CLIs are effectively starting points for scripts that are then run. And the moment one of the script's preconditions are not fulfilled, typically they end. So the CLI developer will just exit the program. And the way that I designed, I really wanted to create the Netlify dev workflow was for it to be kind of a state machine that would resolve itself. If it detected a precondition wasn't fulfilled, it would actually delegate to a subprogram that would then fulfill that precondition, asking for more info or waiting until a condition is fulfilled. Then it would go back to the original flow and continue that. I don't know if that was ever tried or is there a more formal definition of it? Because I just came up with it randomly. But it felt like the beginnings of AI in the sense that when you run a CLI command, you have an intent to do something and you may not have given the CLI all the things that it needs to do, to execute that intent. So that was my two cents.Ben [00:04:08]: Yeah, that reminds me of a thing we sort of thought about when writing the CLI guidelines, where CLIs were designed in a world where the CLI was really a programming environment and it's primarily designed for machines to use all of these commands and scripts. Whereas over time, the CLI has evolved to humans. It was back in a world where the primary way of using computers was writing shell scripts effectively. We've transitioned to a world where actually humans are using CLI programs much more than they used to. And the current sort of best practices about how Unix was designed, there's lots of design documents about Unix from the 70s and 80s, where they say things like, command line commands should not output anything on success. It should be completely silent, which makes sense if you're using it in a shell script. But if a user is using that, it just looks like it's broken. If you type copy and it just doesn't say anything, you assume that it didn't work as a new user. I think what's really interesting about the CLI is that it's actually a really good, to your point, it's a really good user interface where it can be like a conversation, where it feels like you're, instead of just like you telling the computer to do this thing and either silently succeeding or saying, no, you did, failed, it can guide you in the right direction and tell you what your intent might be, and that kind of thing in a way that's actually, it's almost more natural to a CLI than it is in a graphical user interface because it feels like this back and forth with the computer, almost funnily like a language model. So I think there's some interesting intersection of CLIs and language models actually being very sort of closely related and a good fit for each other.Swyx [00:05:59]: Yeah, I'll say one of the surprises from last year, I worked on a coding agent, but I think the most successful coding agent of my cohort was Open Interpreter, which was a CLI implementation. And I have chronically, even as a CLI person, I have chronically underestimated the CLI as a useful interface. You also developed ArchiveVanity, which you recently retired after a glorious seven years.Ben [00:06:22]: Something like that.Swyx [00:06:23]: Which is nice, I guess, HTML PDFs.Ben [00:06:27]: Yeah, that was actually the start of where Replicate came from. Okay, we can tell that story. So when I quit Docker, I got really interested in science infrastructure, just as like a problem area, because it is like science has created so much progress in the world. The fact that we're, you know, can talk to each other on a podcast and we use computers and the fact that we're alive is probably thanks to medical research, you know. But science is just like completely archaic and broken and it's like 19th century processes that just happen to be copied to the internet rather than take into account that, you know, we can transfer information at the speed of light now. And the whole way science is funded and all this kind of thing is all kind of very broken. And there's just so much potential for making science work better. And I realized that I wasn't a scientist and I didn't really have any time to go and get a PhD and become a researcher, but I'm a tool builder and I could make existing scientists better at their job. And if I could make like a bunch of scientists a little bit better at their job, maybe that's the kind of equivalent of being a researcher. So one particular thing I dialed in on is just how science is disseminated in that all of these PDFs, quite often behind paywalls, you know, on the internet.Swyx [00:07:34]: And that's a whole thing because it's funded by national grants, government grants, then they're put behind paywalls. Yeah, exactly.Ben [00:07:40]: That's like a whole, yeah, I could talk for hours about that. But the particular thing we got dialed in on was, interestingly, these PDFs are also, there's a bunch of open science that happens as well. So math, physics, computer science, machine learning, notably, is all published on the archive, which is actually a surprisingly old institution.Swyx [00:08:00]: Some random Cornell.Ben [00:08:01]: Yeah, it was just like somebody in Cornell who started a mailing list in the 80s. And then when the web was invented, they built a web interface around it. Like it's super old.Swyx [00:08:11]: And it's like kind of like a user group thing, right? That's why they're all these like numbers and stuff.Ben [00:08:15]: Yeah, exactly. Like it's a bit like something, yeah. That's where all basically all of math, physics and computer science happens. But it's still PDFs published to this thing. Yeah, which is just so infuriating. The web was invented at CERN, a physics institution, to share academic writing. Like there are figure tags, there are like author tags, there are heading tags, there are site tags. You know, hyperlinks are effectively citations because you want to link to another academic paper. But instead, you have to like copy and paste these things and try and get around paywalls. Like it's absurd, you know. And now we have like social media and things, but still like academic papers as PDFs, you know. This is not what the web was for. So anyway, I got really frustrated with that. And I went on vacation with my old friend Andreas. So we were, we used to work together in London on a startup, at somebody else's startup. And we were just on vacation in Greece for fun. And he was like trying to read a machine learning paper on his phone, you know, like we had to like zoom in and like scroll line by line on the PDF. And he was like, this is f*****g stupid. So I was like, I know, like this is something we discovered our mutual hatred for this, you know. And we spent our vacation sitting by the pool, like making latex to HTML, like converters, making the first version of Archive Vanity. Anyway, that was up then a whole thing. And the story, we shut it down recently because they caught the eye of Archive. They were like, oh, this is great. We just haven't had the time to work on this. And what's tragic about the Archive, it's like this project of Cornell that's like, they can barely scrounge together enough money to survive. I think it might be better funded now than it was when we were, we were collaborating with them. And compared to these like scientific journals, it's just that this is actually where the work happens. But they just have a fraction of the money that like these big scientific journals have, which is just so tragic. But anyway, they were like, yeah, this is great. We can't afford to like do it, but do you want to like as a volunteer integrate arXiv Vanity into arXiv?Swyx [00:10:05]: Oh, you did the work.Ben [00:10:06]: We didn't do the work. We started doing the work. We did some. I think we worked on this for like a few months to actually get it integrated into arXiv. And then we got like distracted by Replicate. So a guy called Dan picked up the work and made it happen. Like somebody who works on one of the, the piece of the libraries that powers arXiv Vanity. Okay.Swyx [00:10:26]: And the relationship with arXiv Sanity?Ben [00:10:28]: None.Swyx [00:10:30]: Did you predate them? I actually don't know the lineage.Ben [00:10:32]: We were after, we both were both users of arXiv Sanity, which is like a sort of arXiv...Ben [00:10:37]: Which is Andre's RecSys on top of arXiv.Ben [00:10:40]: Yeah. Yeah. And we were both users of that. And I think we were trying to come up with a working name for arXiv and Andreas just like cracked a joke of like, oh, let's call it arXiv Vanity. Let's make the papers look nice. Yeah. Yeah. And that was the working name and it just stuck.Swyx [00:10:52]: Got it.Ben [00:10:53]: Got it.Alessio [00:10:54]: Yeah. And then from there, tell us more about why you got distracted, right? So Replicate, maybe it feels like an overnight success to a lot of people, but you've been building this since 2019. Yeah.Ben [00:11:04]: So what prompted the start?Alessio [00:11:05]: And we've been collaborating for even longer.Ben [00:11:07]: So we created arXiv Vanity in 2017. So in some sense, we've been doing this almost like six, seven years now, a classic seven year.Swyx [00:11:16]: Overnight success.Ben [00:11:17]: Yeah. Yes. We did arXiv Vanity and then worked on a bunch of like surrounding projects. I was still like really interested in science publishing at that point. And I'm trying to remember, because I tell a lot of like the condensed story to people because I can't really tell like a seven year history. So I'm trying to figure out like the right. Oh, we got room. The right length.Swyx [00:11:35]: We want to nail the definitive Replicate story here.Ben [00:11:37]: One thing that's really interesting about these machine learning papers is that these machine learning papers are published on arXiv and a lot of them are actual fundamental research. So like should be like prose describing a theory. But a lot of them are just running pieces of software that like a machine learning researcher made that did something, you know, it was like an image classification model or something. And they managed to make an image classification model that was better than the existing state of the art. And they've made an actual running piece of software that does image segmentation. And then what they had to do is they then had to take that piece of software and write it up as prose and math in a PDF. And what's frustrating about that is like if you want to. So this was like Andreas is, Andreas was a machine learning engineer at Spotify. And some of his job was like he did pure research as well. Like he did a PhD and he was doing a lot of stuff internally. But part of his job was also being an engineer and taking some of these existing things that people have made and published and trying to apply them to actual problems at Spotify. And he was like, you know, you get given a paper which like describes roughly how the model works. It's probably listing lots of crucial information. There's sometimes code on GitHub. More and more there's code on GitHub. But back then it was kind of relatively rare. But it's quite often just like scrappy research code and didn't actually run. And, you know, there was maybe the weights that were on Google Drive, but they accidentally deleted the weights of Google Drive, you know, and it was like really hard to like take this stuff and actually use it for real things. We just started talking together about like his problems at Spotify and I connected this back to my work at Docker as well. I was like, oh, this is what we created containers for. You know, we solved this problem for normal software by putting the thing inside a container so you could ship it around and it kept on running. So we were sort of hypothesizing about like, hmm, what if we put machine learning models inside containers so they could actually be shipped around and they could be defined in like some production ready formats and other researchers could run them to generate baselines and you could people who wanted to actually apply them to real problems in the world could just pick up the container and run it, you know. And we then thought this is quite whether it gets normally in this part of the story I skip forward to be like and then we created cog this container stuff for machine learning models and we created Replicate, the place for people to publish these machine learning models. But there's actually like two or three years between that. The thing we then got dialed into was Andreas was like, what if there was a CI system for machine learning? It's like one of the things he really struggled with as a researcher is generating baselines. So when like he's writing a paper, he needs to like get like five other models that are existing work and get them running.Swyx [00:14:21]: On the same evals.Ben [00:14:22]: Exactly, on the same evals so you can compare apples to apples because you can't trust the numbers in the paper.Swyx [00:14:26]: So you can be Google and just publish them anyway.Ben [00:14:31]: So I think this was coming from the thinking of like there should be containers for machine learning, but why are people going to use that? Okay, maybe we can create a supply of containers by like creating this useful tool for researchers. And the useful tool was like, let's get researchers to package up their models and push them to the central place where we run a standard set of benchmarks across the models so that you can trust those results and you can compare these models apples to apples and for like a researcher for Andreas, like doing a new piece of research, he could trust those numbers and he could like pull down those models, confirm it on his machine, use the standard benchmark to then measure his model and you know, all this kind of stuff. And so we started building that. That's what we applied to YC with, got into YC and we started sort of building a prototype of this. And then this is like where it all starts to fall apart. We were like, okay, that sounds great. And we talked to a bunch of researchers and they really wanted that and that sounds brilliant. That's a great way to create a supply of like models on this research platform. But how the hell is this a business, you know, like how are we even going to make any money out of this? And we're like, oh s**t, that's like the, that's the real unknown here of like what the business is. So we thought it would be a really good idea to like, okay, before we get too deep into this, let's try and like reduce the risk of this turning into a business. So let's try and like research what the business could be for this research tool effectively. So we went and talked to a bunch of companies trying to sell them something which didn't exist. So we're like, hey, do you want a way to share research inside your company so that other researchers or say like the product manager can test out the machine learning model? They're like, maybe. And we were like, do you want like a deployment platform for deploying models? Like, do you want like a central place for versioning models? Like we're trying to think of like lots of different like products we could sell that were like related to this thing. And terrible idea. Like we're not sales people and like people don't want to buy something that doesn't exist. I think some people can pull this off, but we were just like, you know, a bunch of product people, products and engineer people, and we just like couldn't pull this off. So we then got halfway through our YC batch. We hadn't built a product. We had no users. We had no idea what our business was going to be because we couldn't get anybody to like buy something which didn't exist. And actually there was quite a way through our, I think it was like two thirds the way through our YC batch or something. And we're like, okay, well we're kind of screwed now because we don't have anything to show at demo day. And then we then like tried to figure out, okay, what can we build in like two weeks that'll be something. So we like desperately tried to, I can't remember what we've tried to build at that point. And then two weeks before demo day, I just remember it was all, we were going down to Mountain View every week for dinners and we got called on to like an all hands Zoom call, which was super weird. We're like, what's going on? And they were like, don't come to dinner tomorrow. And we realized, we kind of looked at the news and we were like, oh, there's a pandemic going on. We were like so deep in our startup. We were just like completely oblivious to what was going on around us.Swyx [00:17:20]: Was this Jan or Feb 2020?Ben [00:17:22]: This was March 2020. March 2020. 2020.Swyx [00:17:25]: Yeah. Because I remember Silicon Valley at the time was early to COVID. Like they started locking down a lot faster than the rest of the US.Ben [00:17:32]: Yeah, exactly. And I remember, yeah, soon after that, like there was the San Francisco lockdowns and then like the YC batch just like stopped. There wasn't demo day and it was in a sense a blessing for us because we just kind ofSwyx [00:17:43]: In the normal course of events, you're actually allowed to defer to a future demo day. Yeah.Ben [00:17:51]: So we didn't even take any defer because it just kind of didn't happen.Swyx [00:17:55]: So was YC helpful?Ben [00:17:57]: Yes. We completely screwed up the batch and that was our fault. I think the thing that YC has become incredibly valuable for us has been after YC. I think there was a reason why we couldn't, didn't need to do YC to start with because we were quite experienced. We had done some startups before. We were kind of well connected with VCs, you know, it was relatively easy to raise money because we were like a known quantity. You know, if you go to a VC and be like, Hey, I made this piece of-Swyx [00:18:24]: It's Docker Compose for AI.Ben [00:18:26]: Exactly. Yeah. And like, you know, people can pattern match like that and they can have some trust, you know what you're doing. Whereas it's much harder for people straight out of college and that's where like YC sweet spot is like helping people straight out of college who are super promising, like figure out how to do that.Swyx [00:18:40]: No credentials.Ben [00:18:41]: Yeah, exactly. We don't need that. But the thing that's been incredibly useful for us since YC has been, this was actually, I think, so Docker was a YC company and Solomon, the founder of Docker, I think told me this. He was like, a lot of people underestimate the value of YC after you finish the batch. And his biggest regret was like not staying in touch with YC. I might be misattributing this, but I think it was him. And so we made a point of that. And we just stayed in touch with our batch partner, who Jared at YC has been fantastic.Ben [00:19:10]: Jared Friedman. All of like the team at YC, there was the growth team at YC when they were still there and they've been super helpful. And two things have been super helpful about that is like raising money, like they just know exactly how to raise money. And they've been super helpful during that process in all of our rounds, like we've done three rounds since we did YC and they've been super helpful during the whole process. And also just like reaching a ton of customers. So like the magic of YC is that you have all of, like there's thousands of YC companies, I think, on the order of thousands, I think. And they're all of your first customers. And they're like super helpful, super receptive, really want to like try out new things. You have like a warm intro to every one of them basically. And there's this mailing list where you can post about updates to your products, which is like really receptive. And that's just been fantastic for us. Like we've just like got so many of our users and customers through YC. Yeah.Swyx [00:20:00]: Well, so the classic criticism or the sort of, you know, pushback is people don't buy you because you are both from YC. But at least they'll open the email. Right. Like that's the... Okay.Ben [00:20:13]: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.Swyx [00:20:16]: So that's been a really, really positive experience for us. And sorry, I interrupted with the YC question. Like you were, you make it, you just made it out of the YC, survived the pandemic.Ben [00:20:22]: I'll try and condense this a little bit. Then we started building tools for COVID weirdly. We were like, okay, we don't have a startup. We haven't figured out anything. What's the most useful thing we could be doing right now?Swyx [00:20:32]: Save lives.Ben [00:20:33]: So yeah. Let's try and save lives. I think we failed at that as well. We had a bunch of products that didn't really go anywhere. We kind of worked on, yeah, a bunch of stuff like contact tracing, which turned out didn't really be a useful thing. Sort of Andreas worked on like a door dash for like people delivering food to people who are vulnerable. What else did we do? The meta problem of like helping people direct their efforts to what was most useful and a few other things like that. It didn't really go anywhere. So we're like, okay, this is not really working either. We were considering actually just like doing like work for COVID. We have this decision document early on in our company, which is like, should we become a like government app contracting shop? We decided no.Swyx [00:21:11]: Because you also did work for the gov.uk. Yeah, exactly.Ben [00:21:14]: We had experience like doing some like-Swyx [00:21:17]: And the Guardian and all that.Ben [00:21:18]: Yeah. For like government stuff. And we were just like really good at building stuff. Like we were just like product people. Like I was like the front end product side and Andreas was the back end side. So we were just like a product. And we were working with a designer at the time, a guy called Mark, who did our early designs for Replicate. And we were like, hey, what if we just team up and like become and build stuff? And yeah, we gave up on that in the end for, I can't remember the details. So we went back to machine learning. And then we were like, well, we're not really sure if this is going to work. And one of my most painful experiences from previous startups is shutting them down. Like when you realize it's not really working and having to shut it down, it's like a ton of work and it's people hate you and it's just sort of, you know. So we were like, how can we make something we don't have to shut down? And even better, how can we make something that won't page us in the middle of the night? So we made an open source project. We made a thing which was an open source Weights and Biases, because we had this theory that like people want open source tools. There should be like an open source, like version control, experiment tracking like thing. And it was intuitive to us and we're like, oh, we're software developers and we like command line tools. Like everyone loves command line tools and open source stuff, but machine learning researchers just really didn't care. Like they just wanted to click on buttons. They didn't mind that it was a cloud service. It was all very visual as well, that you need lots of graphs and charts and stuff like this. So it wasn't right. Like it was right. We actually were building something that Andreas made at Spotify for just like saving experiments to cloud storage automatically, but other people didn't really want this. So we kind of gave up on that. And then that was actually originally called Replicate and we renamed that out of the way. So it's now called Keepsake and I think some people still use it. Then we sort of came back, we looped back to our original idea. So we were like, oh, maybe there was a thing in that thing we were originally sort of thinking about of like researchers sharing their work and containers for machine learning models. So we just built that. And at that point we were kind of running out of the YC money. So we were like, okay, this like feels good though. Let's like give this a shot. So that was the point we raised a seed round. We raised seed round. Pre-launch. We raised pre-launch and pre-team. It was an idea basically. We had a little prototype. It was just an idea and a team. But we were like, okay, like, you know, bootstrapping this thing is getting hard. So let's actually raise some money. Then we made Cog and Replicate. It initially didn't have APIs, interestingly. It was just the bit that I was talking about before of helping researchers share their work. So it was a way for researchers to put their work on a webpage such that other people could try it out and so that you could download the Docker container. We cut the benchmarks thing of it because we thought that was just like too complicated. But it had a Docker container that like, you know, Andreas in a past life could download and run with his benchmark and you could compare all these models apples to apples. So that was like the theory behind it. That kind of started to work. It was like still when like, you know, it was long time pre-AI hype and there was lots of interesting stuff going on, but it was very much in like the classic deep learning era. So sort of image segmentation models and sentiment analysis and all these kinds of things, you know, that people were using, that we're using deep learning models for. And we were very much building for research because all of this stuff was happening in research institutions, you know, the sort of people who'd be publishing to archive. So we were creating an accompanying material for their models, basically, you know, they wanted a demo for their models and we were creating a company material for it. What was funny about that is they were like not very good users. Like they were, they were doing great work obviously, but, but the way that research worked is that they, they just made like one thing every six months and they just fired and forget it, forgot it. Like they, they published this piece of paper and like, done, I've, I've published it. So they like output it to Replicate and then they just stopped using Replicate. You know, they were like once every six monthly users and that wasn't great for us, but we stumbled across this early community. This was early 2021 when OpenAI created this, created CLIP and people started smushing CLIP and GANs together to produce image generation models. And this started with, you know, it was just a bunch of like tinkerers on Discord, basically. There was an early model called Big Sleep by Advadnoun. And then there was VQGAN Clip, which was like a bit more popular by Rivers Have Wings. And it was all just people like tinkering on stuff in Colabs and it was very dynamic and it was people just making copies of co-labs and playing around with things and forking in. And to me this, I saw this and I was like, oh, this feels like open source software, like so much more than the research world where like people are publishing these papers.Swyx [00:25:48]: You don't know their real names and it's just like a Discord.Ben [00:25:51]: Yeah, exactly. But crucially, it was like people were tinkering and forking and things were moving really fast and it just felt like this creative, dynamic, collaborative community in a way that research wasn't really, like it was still stuck in this kind of six month publication cycle. So we just kind of latched onto that and started building for this community. And you know, a lot of those early models were published on Replicate. I think the first one that was really primarily on Replicate was one called Pixray, which was sort of mid 2021 and it had a really cool like pixel art output, but it also just like produced general, you know, the sort of, they weren't like crisp in images, but they were quite aesthetically pleasing, like some of these early image generation models. And you know, that was like published primarily on Replicate and then a few other models around that were like published on Replicate. And that's where we really started to find our early community and like where we really found like, oh, we've actually built a thing that people want and they were great users as well. And people really want to try out these models. Lots of people were like running the models on Replicate. We still didn't have APIs though, interestingly, and this is like another like really complicated part of the story. We had no idea what a business model was still at this point. I don't think people could even pay for it. You know, it was just like these web forms where people could run the model.Swyx [00:27:06]: Just for historical interest, which discords were they and how did you find them? Was this the Lion Discord? Yeah, Lion. This is Eleuther.Ben [00:27:12]: Eleuther, yeah. It was the Eleuther one. These two, right? There was a channel where Viki Gangklep, this was early 2021, where Viki Gangklep was set up as a Discord bot. I just remember being completely just like captivated by this thing. I was just like playing around with it all afternoon and like the sort of thing. In Discord. Oh s**t, it's 2am. You know, yeah.Swyx [00:27:33]: This is the beginnings of Midjourney.Ben [00:27:34]: Yeah, exactly. And Stability. It was the start of Midjourney. And you know, it's where that kind of user interface came from. Like what's beautiful about the user interface is like you could see what other people are doing. And you could riff off other people's ideas. And it was just so much fun to just like play around with this in like a channel full of a hundred people. And yeah, that just like completely captivated me and I'm like, okay, this is something, you know. So like we should get these things on Replicate. Yeah, that's where that all came from.Swyx [00:28:00]: And then you moved on to, so was it APIs next or was it Stable Diffusion next?Ben [00:28:04]: It was APIs next. And the APIs happened because one of our users, our web form had like an internal API for making the web form work, like with an API that was called from JavaScript. And somebody like reverse engineered that to start generating images with a script. You know, they did like, you know, Web Inspector Coffee is Carl, like figured out what the API request was. And it wasn't secured or anything.Swyx [00:28:28]: Of course not.Ben [00:28:29]: They started generating a bunch of images and like we got tons of traffic and like what's going on? And I think like a sort of usual reaction to that would be like, hey, you're abusing our API and to shut them down. And instead we're like, oh, this is interesting. Like people want to run these models. So we documented the API in a Notion document, like our internal API in a Notion document and like message this person being like, hey, you seem to have found our API. Here's the documentation. That'll be like a thousand bucks a month, please, with a straight form, like we just click some buttons to make. And they were like, sure, that sounds great. So that was our first customer.Swyx [00:29:05]: A thousand bucks a month.Ben [00:29:07]: It was a surprising amount of money. That's not casual. It was on the order of a thousand bucks a month.Swyx [00:29:11]: So was it a business?Ben [00:29:13]: It was the creator of PixRay. Like it was, he generated NFT art. And so he like made a bunch of art with these models and was, you know, selling these NFTs effectively. And I think lots of people in his community were doing similar things. And like he then referred us to other people who were also generating NFTs and he joined us with models. We started our API business. Yeah. Then we like made an official API and actually like added some billing to it. So it wasn't just like a fixed fee.Swyx [00:29:40]: And now people think of you as the host and models API business. Yeah, exactly.Ben [00:29:44]: But that just turned out to be our business, you know, but what ended up being beautiful about this is it was really fulfilling. Like the original goal of what we wanted to do is that we wanted to make this research that people were making accessible to like other people and for it to be used in the real world. And this was like the just like ultimately the right way to do it because all of these people making these generative models could publish them to replicate and they wanted a place to publish it. And software engineers, you know, like myself, like I'm not a machine learning expert, but I want to use this stuff, could just run these models with a single line of code. And we thought, oh, maybe the Docker image is enough, but it's actually super hard to get the Docker image running on a GPU and stuff. So it really needed to be the hosted API for this to work and to make it accessible to software engineers. And we just like wound our way to this. Yeah.Swyx [00:30:30]: Two years to the first paying customer. Yeah, exactly.Alessio [00:30:33]: Did you ever think about becoming Midjourney during that time? You have like so much interest in image generation.Swyx [00:30:38]: I mean, you're doing fine for the record, but, you know, it was right there, you were playing with it.Ben [00:30:46]: I don't think it was our expertise. Like I think our expertise was DevTools rather than like Midjourney is almost like a consumer products, you know? Yeah. So I don't think it was our expertise. It certainly occurred to us. I think at the time we were thinking about like, oh, maybe we could hire some of these people in this community and make great models and stuff like this. But we ended up more being at the tooling. Like I think like before I was saying, like I'm not really a researcher, but I'm more like the tool builder, the behind the scenes. And I think both me and Andreas are like that.Swyx [00:31:09]: I think this is an illustration of the tool builder philosophy. Something where you latch on to in DevTools, which is when you see people behaving weird, it's not their fault, it's yours. And you want to pave the cow paths is what they say, right? Like the unofficial paths that people are making, like make it official and make it easy for them and then maybe charge a bit of money.Alessio [00:31:25]: And now fast forward a couple of years, you have 2 million developers using Replicate. Maybe more. That was the last public number that I found.Ben [00:31:33]: It's 2 million users. Not all those people are developers, but a lot of them are developers, yeah.Alessio [00:31:38]: And then 30,000 paying customers was the number late in space runs on Replicate. So we had a small podcaster and we host a whisper diarization on Replicate. And we're paying. So we're late in space in the 30,000. You raised a $40 million dollars, Series B. I would say that maybe the stable diffusion time, August 22, was like really when the company started to break out. Tell us a bit about that and the community that came out and I know now you're expanding beyond just image generation.Ben [00:32:06]: Yeah, like I think we kind of set ourselves, like we saw there was this really interesting image, generative image world going on. So we kind of, you know, like we're building the tools for that community already, really. And we knew stable diffusion was coming out. We knew it was a really exciting thing, you know, it was the best generative image model so far. I think the thing we underestimated was just like what an inflection point it would be, where it was, I think Simon Willison put it this way, where he said something along the lines of it was a model that was open source and tinkerable and like, you know, it was just good enough and open source and tinkerable such that it just kind of took off in a way that none of the models had before. And like what was really neat about stable diffusion is it was open source so you could like, compared to like Dali, for example, which was like sort of equivalent quality. And like the first week we saw like people making animation models out of it. We saw people make like game texture models that like use circular convolutions to make repeatable textures. We saw, you know, a few weeks later, like people were fine tuning it so you could make, put your face in these models and all of these other-Swyx [00:33:10]: Textual inversion.Ben [00:33:11]: Yep. Yeah, exactly. That happened a bit before that. And all of this sort of innovation was happening all of a sudden. And people were publishing on Replicate because you could just like publish arbitrary models on Replicate. So we had this sort of supply of like interesting stuff being built. But because it was a sufficiently good model, there was also just like a ton of people building with it. They were like, oh, we can build products with this thing. And this was like about the time where people were starting to get really interested in AI. So like tons of product builders wanted to build stuff with it. And we were just like sitting in there in the middle, it's like the interface layer between like all these people who wanted to build and all these like machine learning experts who were building cool models. And that's like really where it took off. We were just sort of incredible supply, incredible demand, and we were just like in the middle. And then, yeah, since then, we've just kind of grown and grown really. And we've been building a lot for like the indie hacker community, these like individual tinkerers, but also startups and a lot of large companies as well who are sort of exploring and building AI things. Then kind of the same thing happened like middle of last year with language models and Lama 2, where the same kind of stable diffusion effect happened with Lama. And Lama 2 was like our biggest week of growth ever because like tons of people wanted to tinker with it and run it. And you know, since then we've just been seeing a ton of growth in language models as well as image models. Yeah. We're just kind of riding a lot of the interest that's going on in AI and all the people building in AI, you know. Yeah.Swyx [00:34:29]: Kudos. Right place, right time. But also, you know, took a while to position for the right place before the wave came. I'm curious if like you have any insights on these different markets. So Peter Levels, notably very loud person, very picky about his tools. I wasn't sure actually if he used you. He does. So you've met him on your Series B blog posts and Danny Post might as well, his competitor all in that wave. What are their needs versus, you know, the more enterprise or B2B type needs? Did you come to a decision point where you're like, okay, you know, how serious are these indie hackers versus like the actual businesses that are bigger and perhaps better customers because they're less churny?Ben [00:35:04]: They're surprisingly similar because I think a lot of people right now want to use and build with AI, but they're not AI experts and they're not infrastructure experts either. So they want to be able to use this stuff without having to like figure out all the internals of the models and, you know, like touch PyTorch and whatever. And they also don't want to be like setting up and booting up servers. And that's the same all the way from like indie hackers just getting started because like obviously you just want to get started as quickly as possible, all the way through to like large companies who want to be able to use this stuff, but don't have like all of the experts on stuff, you know, you know, big companies like Google and so on that do actually have a lot of experts on stuff, but the vast majority of companies don't. And they're all software engineers who want to be able to use this AI stuff, but they just don't know how to use it. And it's like, you really need to be an expert and it takes a long time to like learn the skills to be able to use that. So they're surprisingly similar in that sense. I think it's kind of also unfair of like the indie community, like they're not churning surprisingly, or churny or spiky surprisingly, like they're building real established businesses, which is like, kudos to them, like building these really like large, sustainable businesses, often just as solo developers. And it's kind of remarkable how they can do that actually, and it's in credit to a lot of their like product skills. And you know, we're just like there to help them being like their machine learning team effectively to help them use all of this stuff. A lot of these indie hackers are some of our largest customers, like alongside some of our biggest customers that you would think would be spending a lot more money than them, but yeah.Swyx [00:36:35]: And we should name some of these. So you have them on your landing page, your Buzzfeed, you have Unsplash, Character AI. What do they power? What can you say about their usage?Ben [00:36:43]: Yeah, totally. It's kind of a various things.Swyx [00:36:46]: Well, I mean, I'm naming them because they're on your landing page. So you have logo rights. It's useful for people to, like, I'm not imaginative. I see monkey see monkey do, right? Like if I see someone doing something that I want to do, then I'm like, okay, Replicate's great for that.Ben [00:37:00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.Swyx [00:37:01]: So that's what I think about case studies on company landing pages is that it's just a way of explaining like, yep, this is something that we are good for. Yeah, totally.Ben [00:37:09]: I mean, it's, these companies are doing things all the way up and down the stack at different levels of sophistication. So like Unsplash, for example, they actually publicly posted this story on Twitter where they're using BLIP to annotate all of the images in their catalog. So you know, they have lots of images in the catalog and they want to create a text description of it so you can search for it. And they're annotating images with, you know, off the shelf, open source model, you know, we have this big library of open source models that you can run. And you know, we've got lots of people are running these open source models off the shelf. And then most of our larger customers are doing more sophisticated stuff. So they're like fine tuning the models, they're running completely custom models on us. A lot of these larger companies are like, using us for a lot of their, you know, inference, but it's like a lot of custom models and them like writing the Python themselves because they've got machine learning experts on the team. And they're using us for like, you know, their inference infrastructure effectively. And so it's like lots of different levels of sophistication where like some people using these off the shelf models. Some people are fine tuning models. So like level, Peter Levels is a great example where a lot of his products are based off like fine tuning, fine tuning image models, for example. And then we've also got like larger customers who are just like using us as infrastructure effectively. So yeah, it's like all things up and down, up and down the stack.Alessio [00:38:29]: Let's talk a bit about COG and the technical layer. So there are a lot of GPU clouds. I think people have different pricing points. And I think everybody tries to offer a different developer experience on top of it, which then lets you charge a premium. Why did you want to create COG?Ben [00:38:46]: You worked at Docker.Alessio [00:38:47]: What were some of the issues with traditional container runtimes? And maybe yeah, what were you surprised with as you built it?Ben [00:38:54]: COG came right from the start, actually, when we were thinking about this, you know, evaluation, the sort of benchmarking system for machine learning researchers, where we wanted researchers to publish their models in a standard format that was guaranteed to keep on running, that you could replicate the results of, like that's where the name came from. And we realized that we needed something like Docker to make that work, you know. And I think it was just like natural from my point of view of like, obviously that should be open source, that we should try and create some kind of open standard here that people can share. Because if more people use this format, then that's great for everyone involved. I think the magic of Docker is not really in the software. It's just like the standard that people have agreed on, like, here are a bunch of keys for a JSON document, basically. And you know, that was the magic of like the metaphor of real containerization as well. It's not the containers that are interesting. It's just like the size and shape of the damn box, you know. And it's a similar thing here, where really we just wanted to get people to agree on like, this is what a machine learning model is. This is how a prediction works. This is what the inputs are, this is what the outputs are. So cog is really just a Docker container that attaches to a CUDA device, if it needs a GPU, that has a open API specification as a label on the Docker image. And the open API specification defines the interface for the machine learning model, like the inputs and outputs effectively, or the params in machine learning terminology. And you know, we just wanted to get people to kind of agree on this thing. And it's like general purpose enough, like we weren't saying like, some of the existing things were like at the graph level, but we really wanted something general purpose enough that you could just put anything inside this and it was like future compatible and it was just like arbitrary software. And you know, it'd be future compatible with like future inference servers and future machine learning model formats and all this kind of stuff. So that was the intent behind it. It just came naturally that we wanted to define this format. And that's been really working for us. Like a bunch of people have been using cog outside of replicates, which is kind of our original intention, like this should be how machine learning is packaged and how people should use it. Like it's common to use cog in situations where like maybe they can't use the SAS service because I don't know, they're in a big company and they're not allowed to use a SAS service, but they can use cog internally still. And like they can download the models from replicates and run them internally in their org, which we've been seeing happen. And that works really well. People who want to build like custom inference pipelines, but don't want to like reinvent the world, they can use cog off the shelf and use it as like a component in their inference pipelines. We've been seeing tons of usage like that and it's just been kind of happening organically. We haven't really been trying, you know, but it's like there if people want it and we've been seeing people use it. So that's great. Yeah. So a lot of it is just sort of philosophical of just like, this is how it should work from my experience at Docker, you know, and there's just a lot of value from like the core being open, I think, and that other people can share it and it's like an integration point. So, you know, if replicate, for example, wanted to work with a testing system, like a CI system or whatever, we can just like interface at the cog level, like that system just needs to put cog models and then you can like test your models on that CI system before they get deployed to replicate. And it's just like a format that everyone, we can get everyone to agree on, you know.Alessio [00:41:55]: What do you think, I guess, Docker got wrong? Because if I look at a Docker Compose and a cog definition, first of all, the cog is kind of like the Dockerfile plus the Compose versus in Docker Compose, you're just exposing the services. And also Docker Compose is very like ports driven versus you have like the actual, you know, predict this is what you have to run.Ben [00:42:16]: Yeah.Alessio [00:42:17]: Any learnings and maybe tips for other people building container based runtimes, like how much should you separate the API services versus the image building or how much you want to build them together?Ben [00:42:29]: I think it was coming from two sides. We were thinking about the design from the point of view of user needs, what are their problems and what problems can we solve for them, but also what the interface should be for a machine learning model. And it was sort of the combination of two things that led us to this design. So the thing I talked about before was a little bit of like the interface around the machine learning model. So we realized that we wanted to be general purpose. We wanted to be at the like JSON, like human readable things rather than the tensor level. So it was like an open API specification that wrapped a Docker container. And that's where that design came from. And it's really just a wrapper around Docker. So we were kind of building on, standing on shoulders there, but Docker is too low level. So it's just like arbitrary software. So we wanted to be able to like have a open API specification that defined the function effectively that is the machine learning model. But also like how that function is written, how that function is run, which is all defined in code and stuff like that. So it's like a bunch of abstraction on top of Docker to make that work. And that's where that design came from. But the core problems we were solving for users was that Docker is really hard to use and productionizing machine learning models is really hard. So on the first part of that, we knew we couldn't use Dockerfiles. Like Dockerfiles are hard enough for software developers to write. I'm saying this with love as somebody who works on Docker and like works on Dockerfiles, but it's really hard to use. And you need to know a bunch about Linux, basically, because you're running a bunch of CLI commands. You need to know a bunch about Linux and best practices and like how apt works and all this kind of stuff. So we're like, OK, we can't get to that level. We need something that machine learning researchers will be able to understand, like people who are used to like Colab notebooks. And what they understand is they're like, I need this version of Python. I need these Python packages. And somebody told me to apt-get install something. You know? If there was sudo in there, I don't really know what that means. So we tried to create a format that was at that level, and that's what cog.yaml is. And we were really kind of trying to imagine like, what is that machine learning researcher going to understand, you know, and trying to build for them. Then the productionizing machine learning models thing is like, OK, how can we package up all of the complexity of like productionizing machine learning models, like picking CUDA versions, like hooking it up to GPUs, writing an inference server, defining a schema, doing batching, all of these just like really gnarly things that everyone does again and again. And just like, you know, provide that as a tool. And that's where that side of it came from. So it's like combining those user needs with, you know, the sort of world need of needing like a common standard for like what a machine learning model is. And that's how we thought about the design. I don't know whether that answers the question.Alessio [00:45:12]: Yeah. So your idea was like, hey, you really want what Docker stands for in terms of standard, but you actually don't want people to do all the work that goes into Docker.Ben [00:45:22]: It needs to be higher level, you know?Swyx [00:45:25]: So I want to, for the listener, you're not the only standard that is out there. As with any standard, there must be 14 of them. You are surprisingly friendly with Olama, who is your former colleagues from Docker, who came out with the model file. Mozilla came out with the Lama file. And then I don't know if this is in the same category even, but I'm just going to throw it in there. Like Hugging Face has the transformers and diffusers library, which is a way of disseminating models that obviously people use. How would you compare your contrast, your approach of Cog versus all these?Ben [00:45:53]: It's kind of complementary, actually, which is kind of neat in that a lot of transformers, for example, is lower level than Cog. So it's a Python library effectively, but you still need to like...Swyx [00:46:04]: Expose them.Ben [00:46:05]: Yeah. You still need to turn that into an inference server. You still need to like install the Python packages and that kind of thing. So lots of replicate models are transformers models and diffusers models inside Cog, you know? So that's like the level that that sits. So it's very complementary in some sense. We're kind of working on integration with Hugging Face such that you can deploy models from Hugging Face into Cog models and stuff like that to replicate. And some of these things like Llamafile and what Llama are working on are also very complementary in that they're doing a lot of the sort of running these things locally on laptops, which is not a thing that works very well with Cog. Like Cog is really designed around servers and attaching to CUDA devices and NVIDIA GPUs and this kind of thing. So we're actually like, you know, figuring out ways that like we can, those things can be interoperable because, you know, they should be and they are quite complementary and that you should be able to like take a model and replicate and run it on your local machine. You should be able to take a model, you know, the machine and run it in the cloud.Swyx [00:47:02]: Is the base layer something like, is it at the like the GGUF level, which by the way, I need to get a primer on like the different formats that have emerged, or is it at the star dot file level, which is model file, Llamafile, whatever, whatever, or is it at the Cog level? I don't know, to be honest.Ben [00:47:16]: And I think this is something we still have to figure out. There's a lot yet, like exactly where those lines are drawn. Don't know exactly. I think this is something we're trying to figure out ourselves, but I think there's certainly a lot of promise about these systems interoperating. We just want things to work together. You know, we want to try and reduce the number of standards. So the more, the more these things can interoperate and, you know

In this episode of the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, hosts Will Larry and Victoria Guido discuss the intricacies of product design with thoughtbot's Senior Designers, Rami Taibah and Ferdia Kenny. They delve into the newly launched Product Design Sprint Kit by thoughtbot, which is designed to streamline and enhance product development. Ferdia and Rami explain how the kit aims to compress the design process into a focused five-day sprint, allowing teams to move from idea to user-tested prototype efficiently. They discuss the genesis of the kit, its components, and the rationale behind making it openly available. Towards the end of the episode, the conversation shifts towards the broader implications of design in product development, the iterative nature of design sprints, and the value of user feedback in guiding product decisions. Rami and Ferdia share real-world examples where product design sprints led to significant pivots or refinements in product strategy, emphasizing the critical role of user testing in uncovering genuine user needs versus presumed functionalities. Follow Rami Taibah on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ramitaibah/). Follow Ferdia Kenny on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ferdiakenny/). Follow thoughtbot on X (https://twitter.com/thoughtbot) or LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/150727/). Become a Sponsor (https://thoughtbot.com/sponsorship) of Giant Robots! Transcript: WILL:  This is the Giant Robots Smashing Into Other Giant Robots podcast, where we explore the design, development, and business of great products. I'm your host, Will Larry. VICTORIA: And I'm your co-host, Victoria Guido. And with us today are Rami Taibah, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, and Ferdia Kenny, Senior Designer at thoughtbot, here to talk to us about the newly released Product Design Sprint Kit from thoughtbot. Ferdia and Rami, thank you for joining us. Why don't you introduce yourselves a little bit, tell us a little bit about each of your background while we get started? FERDIA: I'm Ferdia. I'm a product designer at thoughtbot. I've been with the company for nearly three years now. I'm based in Dublin in Ireland, but I'm from the West Coast of Ireland. Happy to be on the podcast. It's my first time coming on, so that'll be a new experience. RAMI: Yeah, so I'm Rami Taibah, and I am also a senior designer at thoughtbot for nearly two years. I'm also from the West Coast, like Ferdia, but I didn't move. I'm still where I'm from [laughs]. VICTORIA: Yeah, so just to get us warmed up here, why don't you tell us something interesting going on in your lives outside of work you want to share with the group? FERDIA: For me, I'm trying to do a bit of traveling at the moment. So, one of the benefits, obviously, of working with thoughtbot is that we are a fully remote company. As long as we're kind of staying roughly within our time zones, we can kind of travel around a little bit. So, I'm actually in France at the moment and going to Spain in March. So yeah, I'll be working from a couple of different spots, which is really cool and a lot of fun. RAMI: Yeah, it's pretty cool. I always see Ferdia, like, having these meetings in, like, these different locations. Just a few months ago, you were in Italy, right? FERDIA: Yeah. Yeah [laughs], that's right, yeah. RAMI: Yeah. So, for me, well, first of all, I got a new baby, new baby girl, exactly on New Year's Day, so that's interesting, going back home every day and seeing how they evolve very quickly at this age. Another thing is I've been doing a lot of Olympic weightlifting. It's probably one of the consistent things in my life since COVID. I was a CrossFitter. I got out of that, thankfully. But coming back into, like, after quarantine, weightlifting seemed like a good choice because it doesn't have the social aspect of CrossFit, and I can just do it on my own. WILL: How is your sleep? RAMI: I'm a heavy sleeper, and I feel guilty about it, so no problems here [laughs]. WILL: Yeah, that was one thing I'm still trying to recover from–sleep. I love my sleep. And so, I know some people can do with little sleep, but I like sleep. And so, I'm just now recovering, and we're almost two years since my baby boy, so [chuckles]... RAMI: Yeah, I'm a heavy sleeper. And I tell my wife, like, we have this understanding, like, if you ever need anything from me besides...because she has to be up for, like, breastfeeding, just kick me. I'll wake up. I'll do whatever you need [laughs]. WILL: That's awesome. VICTORIA: So, my understanding is that if you want to get better at any sport, if you get better at deadlifting, that will help you progress in your sport pretty much. That's my [laughs] understanding. I don't know if you all feel that way as well. RAMI: Oh, I never heard that. But I do know that these three, like, three or four basic lifts just basically boosts you in everything else, like, deadlifts, back squats. And what was the third one? Bench press, I guess. FERDIA: And pull-ups as well, I think, is a compound exercise. I just hate like this. I look for an excuse to skip them, so...[chuckles] VICTORIA: Yeah, the four essential exercises, but it doesn't mean that they're fun, right? FERDIA: [chuckles] VICTORIA: Yeah. And then, Will, I heard you were also training for a new activity, the 5k. WILL: Yeah, I'm going to run a 5k with my best friend. He's coming into town. So, I'm excited about it. I've always tried to do running, but my form was horrible, and I'll get injured, tried to do too much. And I think I finally figured it out, taking it slow, stretching, making sure my form is correct. So, it's been good. I've enjoyed it. And it's interesting looking at what I'm doing now versus when I first started. And I was like, whoa, like, when I first started, I couldn't even run a mile, and I'd be out of breath and dying and just like, ah, and then now it's like, oh, okay, now I'm recovered, and I can walk it off. So, one thing it's taught me is just consistent, being consistent because I feel like with working out and running, you have this, like, two-week period that it's just hard. Everything hurts. Your body is aching. But then after that, your body is like, okay, you're serious. Okay, then, like, I can adjust and do that. And then once you get over that two weeks, it's like, oh, okay, like, still, like, sometimes I still push it and get sore, but for the most part, my body is like, okay, I get it. Let's do this. And then now, compared to before, now I'm just like, I can't stop because I don't want to go back through that two weeks of pain that I started at, at the very beginning. So, yeah, it's been a very good journey. I don't know how far I'm going to go with it. I don't know if I'm going to go a full marathon or a half marathon. I will increase it and do multiple races, but yeah, I don't know how far I'm going to go with it. VICTORIA: Well, it's interesting. It reminds me how, like, anytime you do something new, you're forming new neural pathways in your brain, then you can get in a routine, and it becomes easier and easier every time you do it. So, I'm going to try to relate this back to our Product Design Sprint Kit. It's like a set of exercises you can learn how to do that might be difficult at first, but then it becomes a part of the way that you work and how you build products, right? So, why don't you tell me a little bit about it? Like, what is it? What is the product design kit that you just came out with? FERDIA: The PDS kit or the Product Design Sprint Kit it was something that I'd kind of been playing around with in investment time for a while, and then spoke to Rami about it a couple of months ago, and he got on board. And it really accelerated what we were doing. And it was basically, like, a product design sprint is a known process in design and product design and product development. I think it was started by Google. And, essentially, the concept is that you can take an idea that you have for something new and, in five days, go from that idea to creating something that can be user tested, and so getting real kind of validated feedback on your idea. Yeah, so try to do it in a compressed timeframe. That's why it's called a sprint. So, you're trying to do it within five days. And the concept for kind of creating a kit that we could share to people beyond thoughtbot was that we tend to repeat a lot of the same instructions in each sprint, so we're running very similar exercises. The outcomes are slightly different, obviously, depending on the customer, but the exercises themselves are pretty similar. So, the [inaudible 06:42] kind of when we're talking to the customer are often very much the same. And we just thought that we get a lot of inquiries from start-ups, I think probably maybe even more so in Europe, before they're funded and looking kind of for the first step. Like, what can they do? So, a lot of them, if they're not in a position to, say, pay for some of our design team to come on with them and run a sprint with them, we thought it'd be cool to be able to give them, well, you know, this is something free that you can run yourself with your team and will kind of get you on the ladder. It will hopefully give you something that you can then take to an investor or somebody that could potentially fund a kind of bigger sprint or maybe even an MVP build. WILL: Let me ask you this: Why is design so important? So, if I'm a developer, or a CTO, or a CEO of whatever, why should I be an advocate for design? RAMI: Well, over here at thoughtbot, we do a lot of iterative design. I think that's a key factor that we should take into consideration. With iterative design, it's the idea of designing something based on a validation or based on a user and doing it quickly and testing it to get feedback from the user or from the market and adjust from there, instead of just designing something in, like, a silo and releasing it after six months and then discovering that you went off course four months ago. And that will cost you a lot of time, a lot of money, a lot of agony, I guess [laughs]. And it just generally will become a very frustrating process. I've seen clients before thoughtbot where they come in and they've been working on this thing for six months, and they're just not releasing and pushing the release for month on month just because the CEO does not feel like it's at par with what he's using on, like, everyday apps. And he's, like, looking at, oh, I want to look like Instagram, or feel like Instagram, or feel like whatever they like when, in reality, products don't evolve that way. And Instagram has already, I don't know, 12 years of development and design behind it. And you can't possibly expect your app that you're launching for your startup to feel the same, look the same, and all that stuff. That's why design is important. So, you just discover early on that you are on the right path and always correcting course with different design techniques, including the PDS. FERDIA: What you're talking about there just de-risks a lot of stuff for people when they're trying to create something new. You could have the, you know, a really, really impressive product under the hood that can do a lot of really technical stuff. But if it's very hard to use, or if it's very hard to kind of tap into that magic that you've built on the development side, people just won't use it, and you won't be able to generate the revenue you want. So yeah, the user experience and kind of the design around that is really important to get people actually using your product. VICTORIA: Yeah, I can relate to what you all have said. I've talked with founders before, who they maybe have a lot of experience in the industry and the problem that they are trying to solve. They think I know what it should look like. I just need developers to build it. But the activities you described about the product design sprint and creating something where you can go out and test that theory, and then incorporate that feedback into your product, and doing it within five days, it seems like a really powerful tool to be able to get you on the right path and avoid hundreds of thousands of dollars of development spend, right? FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, yeah. And, like, a typical outcome for a product design sprint will never be a fully polished, like, perfect design. That's just...it's not realistic. But what you will hopefully have by the end of that five days is you will know, okay, these are, like, five or six things that we're doing right, and these are things we should keep going with. And maybe here are three or four things that we thought users would like, or potential customers would like, and we are actually wrong about those. So, we need to change those things and maybe focus on something else. So, as Rami said, design is an iterative process that is like your first iteration. But getting that feedback is so helpful because, as Rami said, if you spend six months developing something and figure out that 4 of the ten things that you built weren't needed or were wrong, or customers just didn't want them, that's a really, really expensive exercise. So, a design sprint, kind of if you're to do them on a continuous basis or every couple of months, can be a really helpful way to check in with users to make sure what you're committing your resources to is actually going to benefit them in the long run. RAMI: Yeah. And I would also like to add, like, one of the outputs of a design sprint is a prototype. To me, I'm always like, seeing is believing. It's just better to have a prototype as a communication tool within the team with clients, with customers, with users, instead of having, like, a document or even just wireframes. It just doesn't really deliver what you're trying to do, like a prototype. FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. And, like, on the prototype, like, a good comparison that people, if they're not in product development, might have seen it's like if you're building a house, like yourself, Victoria, a lot of architects will give you two-dimensional plans. And for people that aren't in the building industry, plans can be difficult to read or difficult to visualize what those actually look like. But if you can give someone a 3D representation of the house, you know, they can see, oh yeah, this is what it's going to kind of look like and what it's going to feel like. And the prototype that Rami is talking about gives you exactly that. So, it's not just this is our idea; it's, this is actually what the thing could look like, and what do you think of that? So yeah, it's definitely a valuable output. VICTORIA: We're having this debate about whether or not we need a designer for our renovation project. And I'm very much pro [laughs] designer. And maybe that's from my background and being in software development and, like, let's get an expert in here, and they will help us figure it out [laughs], and then we'll make less mistakes and less expensive mistakes going forward. So, I think there's a lot of analogies there. So, this product design sprint is a service that we offer at thoughtbot as well, right? We do workshops and meetings together with the client, and you all have this idea to record the videos and put all the content out there for free. So, I'm curious how that conversation went within management at thoughtbot and how did the idea really get started and get some traction going. FERDIA: The benefit of the Product Design Sprint Kit what you get out of it won't replace, say, doing a product design sprint with thoughtbot because you will have expert product designers or developers in the room with you to kind of share their ideas and their experience. So, the output you're going to get from running a sprint with thoughtbot will be more beneficial, definitely. But what we were trying to, I suppose, cater for was people that fall in the gap, that they're not quite ready to bring thoughtbot on board, or they don't have enough funding to bring thoughtbot on board to do a product design sprint, or a longer discovery sprint, or something like that. But we want to be able to give those people in kind of the software community something actionable that they can actually take and use. So, the first three days, I think, of the Product Design Sprint Kit will be really, really valuable to people. It'll really help them identify the problem that they're trying to solve and then to come up with a lot of different solutions and to try to pick one of those. And probably where it's going to be a bit more challenging if you don't have experience in design or in development will be around the prototype, which Rami had spoken about. You can kind of do some offline things, and there are ways to test things without, say, a high-fidelity prototype, but those high-fidelity prototypes, again, are something that could be helpful. But thoughtbot has always had an approach of kind of giving stuff for free to the community, either open source or just letting people, yeah, letting people learn from our resources and from what we know. And so, yeah, this is just a way to, hopefully, cater to people that we currently can't work with for a variety of reasons but that this is something that they could maybe use in the meantime. MID-ROLL AD: Are you an entrepreneur or start-up founder looking to gain confidence in the way forward for your idea? At thoughtbot, we know you're tight on time and investment, which is why we've created targeted 1-hour remote workshops to help you develop a concrete plan for your product's next steps. Over four interactive sessions, we work with you on research, product design sprint, critical path, and presentation prep so that you and your team are better equipped with the skills and knowledge for success. Find out how we can help you move the needle at tbot.io/entrepreneurs. WILL: So, can you break down...you said it's five days. Can you break down what is walking you through, like, each day? And, like, what experience do I have? Because I know, I've tried to get in Figma sometimes, and it's not easy. It's a pain at times. You're trying to maneuver and stuff like that. So, what do I have to do? Like, do you show me how Figma? Do you give me a template with Figma? Like, how do you help me with those things? And I know Miro and those things. So, like, walk me through each step of the sprint. RAMI: Yeah, well, I mean, Figma and Miro are just tools that just became popular, I guess, after COVID. Design sprints used to be physical, in the same room as sprints. You would get the clients or the stakeholders in a room and do all that stuff. But Figma, FigJam, and, you know, kind of...I don't know if this was part of their, like, product thinking, but it kind of allowed doing full-on design sprints in their tools. So, the first step or the first day would be, like, the understanding day where basically we gather information about the product, the users, what's out there, and just come up with a general plan on how to go forward. And the second day would be divergent where we just look at what's out there and come up with these crazy ideas, kind of, like, a brainstorming thing but in a more inclusive, I guess, way and in a more organized way. So, you don't have people shouting over each other. Like, being anonymous also is important on this day, so nobody really knows what you're doing or saying. It's just ideas to remove bias. Then, we'd have a converge day where we take all these ideas and consolidate them, which will be an input into the prototype phase. And the last day is the test phase. I mean, each of these days you can talk...have a full podcast. VICTORIA: I'm curious about when you're testing and when you're, like, I'll say thoughtbot is a global company, right? And so, there's lots of different types of users and groups that you might be wanting to use your app. I'm thinking, you know, sometimes, in particular, some of the applications I've been looking at are targeting people who maybe they don't have an iPhone. They maybe have lower income or less means and access to get products and services. So, how does your design sprint talk to designing for different types of communities? FERDIA: I think that's a great question, Victoria. I would say the first thing on it is that we'd often get a lot of people with a startup idea, and they would come in and say, "You know, this app could be used by everybody. So, like, we have kind of no beachhead market or no target market. Like, this would be great for the whole world." That's a very nice thought to have if it is something that could potentially be used by everyone. But we would generally say you should pick a smaller niche to try to establish yourself in first and hit a home run basically with that niche first, and then kind of grow from there. We would normally say to people as, like, again, this is going back to what Rami said about the iterative process. If at the end of the five days, you've picked the wrong beachhead market and it doesn't hit home with them, that's fine. You can just do another sprint next week or next month on a different kind of subsection of the market. So, I think picking a fairly niche sector of the market is a good starting point. You then run your product design sprint with that niche in mind and try to talk to five users from that. And, generally, we say five because, generally, if you have less than or fewer than five people contributing, you probably won't get enough data. You know that you could...if you only test with two people, you probably wouldn't get a thorough enough data set. And then, normally, once you go over five, you kind of start seeing the patterns repeating themselves. You get kind of diminishing returns, I guess, after five. So, that would generally be the approach. Try to identify your beachhead market, the one you want to go into first, and then you will try to talk to five people generally from the founding team's network that match the criteria of that beachhead market. And, in some ways, just the final point, I guess, is the fact that you have to pull them from your network is actually beneficial to kind of make you narrow down and pick a niche market that's accessible to you because you know people in it. RAMI: And maybe if you don't know anybody, then maybe you're in the wrong industry. FERDIA: Yeah. Great point. Great point because, yeah, it makes it a lot easier. It's nice to have loads of industries that you could go into, but it makes it so much easier if the founding team have contacts in an industry. Yeah, it makes a big difference. WILL: Yeah, I was going through the different days and kind of what you were talking about. So, like, one day is brainstorming, then converge, and then prototyping, and user testing kind of on that last day. It seems like it's completely laid out. Like, you're giving away all the keys except experience from the actual designer. It seems like it's all laid out. Was that the goal to, like, really have them fully laid out? Hey, you can do this from point A to point B, and this is what it looks like. Is that something that you're...because that's what it looks like as my experience with designers and stuff. And if that's the case, what was your reasoning behind that, to give it away? For someone, like you said, like a startup they can do this because you pretty much laid it all out. I'm not a designer, and I don't claim to, but it looks like I can do this from what you laid out. RAMI: Well, first of all, like, at thoughtbot, we're really big into open source, and open source is not always just development. It can be these kinds of things, right? It's not a trade secret. It's not something we came up with. We maybe evolved it a little bit from Google, I think it was Google Ventures, but we just evolved it. And, at the end of the day, it's something that anybody can do. But, actually, taking the output from it is something that we do as thoughtbot. Like, okay, you have a prototype. That's great. You tested it, but okay, now we want to make it happen. If you can make it happen, then great, but the reality is that a lot of people can't, and that's why there are, like, a gazillion agencies out there that do these things. So, the reasoning, I guess, and Ferdia can expand on, is, like, if somebody takes this and comes up with a great prototype and feels confident that they actually want to develop this idea, who else would be better than thoughtbot who actually gave them the keys to everything? FERDIA: Yeah, 100%, Rami. Yeah, it's essentially just helping people get on the first rung of the product development ladder with fewer barriers to entry, so you don't have to have a couple of thousand dollars saved up to run a sprint. This kind of gives you a really, really low entry point. And I guess there's another use case for it where you would often have potentially founders or even companies that want to release a new product or feature. And they might reach out to thoughtbot because they want to develop something, and they're very sure that this is what we want to develop. And, you know, maybe they don't want to engage with a product design sprint or something like that if they think they know their market well enough. And this could be a handy tool just to say to them, "Okay, if you can go away, take this free resource for a week, run a product design sprint with your team, and come back to us and tell us that nothing has changed, you know that you've correctly identified the right market and that you've validated your theories with them," then we can kind of jump into development from there. But yeah, it can be a good way, I suppose, to show the value of doing a product design sprint. As I said, a lot of people come in, and they have great ideas, and they can be fairly certain that this is going to work. But a product design sprint is really, really valuable to validate those before you dive into building. VICTORIA: And can you give us an example from your experience of a client who went through a product design sprint and decided to pivot maybe their main idea and go in a different direction? FERDIA: I'm not sure off the top of my head, Victoria, if I can pick one that pivoted in a completely different direction, but definitely, like, some of the clients that we worked with on the Fusion team in thoughtbot ended up changing direction or changing the customer that they were going after. So, some people might have had an idea in their head of who they wanted to tackle and might have had a particular, say, feature prioritized for that person. And through the product design sprint, we were able to validate that, actually, this feature is not that important. This other feature is more important, and it's more important to a different group than kind of what you initially thought. That would happen fairly regularly on a product design sprint. Like, I think if you look at the potential outcomes, one being that everything's exactly as you thought it was and you can proceed as planned, or the opposite end of the spectrum where nothing is as you thought it was and, you know, you kind of have to go back to the drawing board, it's very rare that you're on either end of those after a product design sprint. Most of the time, you're somewhere in the middle. You've changed a few things, and you're able to keep a few things, and that's kind of normally where they land. So, I would say nearly every customer that we've done a product design sprint with has changed some things, but never kind of gone back to the drawing board and started from scratch. RAMI: It's usually prioritization and just understanding what to do and also, like, get into the details of how to do it. That's where the value comes in. But, like, completely pivoting from a food delivery app to, I don't know, NFTs [laughs] never really happened. VICTORIA: Yeah, and it doesn't have to necessarily be a big pivot but looking for, like, a real-world example, like, maybe you're building an e-commerce site for a plant marketplace or something like that. RAMI: Yeah. Well, we had a self-help app where they already had the app in the market. It was a progressive web app, and they were really keen on improving this mood tracker feature. But then we did a product design sprint, and they had a bunch of other features, and that exercise kind of reprioritized. And the mood tracker ended up not being released in the first version of the actual mobile app because we were also developing a native app. VICTORIA: Gotcha. So, they were pretty convinced that this was an important feature that people wanted to track their mood in their app. And then, when they went through and tested it, users were actually like, "There's this other feature that's more important to me." FERDIA: One example of another client that we did, which was a kind of a wellness app, they wanted it to feel like a friend in your pocket. So, they were looking at ways to integrate with WhatsApp that you'd get notifications via WhatsApp. So, they would kind of be, like, friendly messages to people as if it's your friend, you know, texting you to check in. And that was kind of an idea going into it, and users did not like that at all. Like, they really didn't like that. So, we ditched that [inaudible 25:49] completely. But, again, that could have been something that they would have spent a long time developing to try to implement, and then to have users say this would have been a very, very costly waste of time. So, we figured that out in a few days, which was a money saver for the team. VICTORIA: And it must be pretty emotional to have that feedback, right? Like, it's better to get it early on so that you don't invest all the money and time into it. But as a founder, I'm sure you're so passionate about your ideas, and you really think you have the answers from your experience, most likely. So, I'm curious if there's any kind of emotional management you do with clients during this product design sprint. FERDIA: I think it definitely is. I think people, as I said, often come in with very strong opinions of what they feel will work. And it might even be a product that they specifically want, or they might be one of those potential users. And I actually think, say, engaging an agency like thoughtbot to design something like that, if we felt that they were going down the wrong path, that could be actually quite difficult to do. But because of product design sprints, you are user-testing it. The founders are hearing this feedback from the horse's mouth, so to speak. They're hearing it directly from potential customers. So, it's a lot more black and white. Now, sometimes, it might still be a case that a founder then doesn't want to proceed with that idea if it's not kind of going to be the way that they wanted it to be, and that's fair enough as well. But the feedback, as I said, it tends not to be that the idea is completely scrapped. It just means that you move a couple of things around. As Rami said, you deprioritize some things and prioritize other things for the first version, and that tends to be the outcome of it. VICTORIA: Are the users always right, or is it sometimes you can have an idea that persist, despite the early feedback from users? RAMI: Interesting question. Like, I see the parallels you're doing with the customer is always right, yeah. But the thing is, like, that's just my opinion, I think. We tested with users, and we kind of observe how they react to it and how they use the prototype. So, it's not like an opinion session or, like, a focus group where they're actually giving...a user can say something and do something else or react in a different way. But yeah, it's a fine line, I think. But I would be really surprised if ten users would agree on something and say something, and their behavior also would reflect that, and we won't pick up on. VICTORIA: Yes, I like the distinction you're making between what they say and then what the behavior shows, right? FERDIA: I think something important there as well, like you'll often hear it in design communities, is that you should listen to the feedback from customers but maybe not the solutions that they're proposing. Because, at the end of the day, like, thoughtbot have experts in product design and product development, so we want to figure out from the user's perspective what they want to achieve and maybe what their problems are, but not necessarily take into account or just, I suppose, not necessarily just follow exactly what they say the solution should be. You're kind of looking for the problems and the things that they're struggling with. You're trying to pick those up rather than just to do the solution that the customer is telling you. And you'll see that in a lot of startups as well that, you know, it's the famous Henry Ford quote about, you know, "If I'd listened to my customers, I'd have designed a faster horse." Sometimes, you need to listen to the problem, and the problem is getting from A to B faster, and then you come up with a solution for that rather than the solution that's been recommended to you. WILL: I want to pivot a little bit and ask you both, why did you get into design? FERDIA: I actually did architecture in university, and there were aspects of that I liked. Funnily enough, it's a fairly similar process to designing for software, and then it's an iterative approach. You're given a brief and yet you kind of take a concept forward. But then, when you apply for planning, you have to make changes. And when you kind of put [inaudible 29:41], you make changes. So, you're constantly, I suppose, designing iteratively. And then I got into startups and was kind of wearing a lot of different hats in that startup sort of world. But the product was the one area that always kind of got me excited. So, you know, if you tried to make a sale with a particular customer and they didn't want to go over something, like, coming home and trying to figure out, okay, how can I fix that problem with the product so that next time when I go to a customer, and they'll say, "Yes"? That was kind of what always gave me the adrenaline. So yeah, comparatively, between architecture and software, the turnaround times in software is so much faster that I think it's more enjoyable than architecture. You kind of can really see progress. Product design sprint in five days. You can kind of take something a long way whereas designing a building is a bit slower, but it's always kind of been some area of interest. Well, what about you, Rami? RAMI: Well, I wanted to become a hacker, but I ended up to be a designer [laughs]. No, really, when, like, in middle school, I really wanted to be a hacker and kept looking up what is it. Like, I see it in all these movies really cool, and I wanted to understand, like, how it's done online. And I saw, like, everybody is talking about this weird, little thing called command line. And it turns out, like, all these hacking, quote, unquote, "hacking tutorials" were done on Linux. So, I started looking into Linux and got into Linux. From there, I started blogging about Linux, and then I just really got into technology. I was in marketing. By then, I was a marketing major. So, that got me into blogging into, like, Linux and open source, which kind of triggered in my head, okay, I need to maybe pivot to a different career path. So, I did a master's degree in information management. Over there, I stumbled into design. The information management school that I was in, like, it was an interdisciplinary school at, like, design, coding, and business all mixed in. So, I stumbled in design there. VICTORIA: That's how you all got started. And now you've put this product out there pretty recently. I'm curious if you have thought about how you would measure the success of this effort. So, how do you know that what you put out there in the product designs kit is helping people or achieving the goals that you had originally set out to? FERDIA: Initially, Victoria, we obviously like to see the view counts going up on YouTube, and we're always open to feedback. So, like, at the end of each video and in the resources and stuff, we've got contact us kind of links and stuff. So, if people have feedback on how we could make it better or more useful, that would be really, really welcome. So, do feel free to reach out to us. And kind of the ultimate success metric for us would be to have somebody come to us in future and say, "Oh, we used that Product Design Sprint Kit that you produced before, and we either got funding or, you know, we got so much value out of it that we'd like to do a full product design sprint or an MVP build, or something like that." And the equivalent that we would kind of have a lot of in thoughtbot would be, say, gems in development where we would get people reaching out and say, "We use that gem all the time. We know about thoughtbot because of that." That kind of is a way to establish trust with potential customers. So, we're hoping that this is somewhat of an equivalent on the design side. WILL: Oh, it's been great chatting with both of you about design and what you came up with this. I really like it. I'm going to look more into it. VICTORIA: Yes. Thank you both for joining us. And I had one question. So, the sprint is the short-term. What would be, like, a product design marathon? Like, what's [chuckles] the big picture for people who are building products? Maybe that's a silly question, but... RAMI: No, it's not, I mean, but I would guess it's actually building the product and having a successful product in the market and iterate over it for years and years. VICTORIA: Yeah. So, it's a one-week sprint, and you could do it over and over again for many years just to fine-tune and really make sure that your product is meeting the needs of the people you were hoping to reach. Wonderful. All right. Well, thank you both so much for joining us. WILL: You can subscribe to the show and find notes along with a complete transcript for this episode at giantrobots.fm. If you have questions or comments, email us at hosts@giantrobots.fm. You can find me on Twitter @will23larry. VICTORIA: And you can find me on Twitter @victori_ousg. This podcast is brought to you by thoughtbot and produced and edited by Mandy Moore. Thanks for listening. See you next time. AD: Did you know thoughtbot has a referral program? If you introduce us to someone looking for a design or development partner, we will compensate you if they decide to work with us. More info on our website at: tbot.io/referral. Or you can email us at referrals@thoughtbot.com with any questions.

964. It's a listener question extravaganza! I answer your questions about "canceled," "another think/thing coming," zero plurals such as "fish," the way I reference verbs, episode numbers, "at about," mangos versus green peppers, and muskgos.  (And if I didn't answer your question, don't despair. I hope to do another show with listener questions in a month or two.)| Transcript: https://grammar-girl.simplecast.com/episodes/listener-qs/transcript| Become a Grammarpaloozian and get text messages from me.| Subscribe to the newsletter for regular updates.| Watch my LinkedIn Learning writing courses.| Peeve Wars card game. | Grammar Girl books. | HOST: Mignon Fogarty| VOICEMAIL: 833-214-GIRL (833-214-4475) or https://sayhi.chat/grammargirl| Grammar Girl is part of the Quick and Dirty Tips podcast network.Audio Engineer: Nathan SemesDirector of Podcast: Brannan GoetschiusAdvertising Operations Specialist: Morgan ChristiansonMarketing and Publicity Assistant: Davina TomlinDigital Operations Specialist: Holly Hutchings| Theme music by Catherine Rannus.| Grammar Girl Social Media Links: YouTube. TikTok. Facebook. Instagram. LinkedIn. Mastodon.

Anna and Polly unpack sexiness. From how they feel at 42 over 24. To what they find sexy about themselves and each other. Alongside some brutal unpacking of what's not sexy in men. Funnily enough it starts with attitude not aesthetics.

When things get hard, it's really quite difficult to find a reason to keep going. Today, we have an incredible guest, Shaun Flores, talking about what keeps us going. This was a complete impromptu conversation. We had come on to record a podcast on a completely different topic. However, quickly after getting chatting, it became so apparent that this was the conversation we both desperately wanted to have. And so, we jumped in and talked about what it's like in the moments when things are really difficult, when we're feeling like giving up, we are hopeless, we're not sure what the next step is. We wanted to talk about what does keep us going.  This is, again, a conversation that was very raw. We both talked about our own struggles with finding meaning, moving forward, and struggling with what keeps us going. I hope you find it as beautiful a conversation as I did. My heart was full for days after recording this, and I'm so honored that Sean came on and was so vulnerable and talked so beautifully about the process of finding a point and finding a reason to keep going. I hope you enjoy it just as much as I did. Shaun: Thank you so much for being able to have this conversation. Kimberley: Can you tell us just a little background on you and what your personal, just general mental health journey has looked like? Shaun: Yeah. My own journey of mental health has been a tumultuous one, to say the very least. For around five to six years ago, I would say I was living with really bad health anxiety to the point where I obsessed. I constantly had an STI or an STD. I'd go to the clinic backward and forward, get tested to make sure I didn't have anything. But the results never proved to be in any way, shape, or form sufficient enough for me to be like, “Okay, cool. I don't have anything.” I kept going back and forward.  How I knew that became the worst possible thing. I paid 300 pounds for the same-day test results. Just to give people's perspective, 300 pounds is a lot. That's when I was like, “There's something wrong. I just don't know what it is.” But in some ways, I thought I was being a diligent citizen in society, doing what I needed to do to make sure I take care of myself and to practice what was safe sex. But then that fear migrated onto this sudden overnight change where I woke up and I thought, “What if I was gay?”  overnight. I just quite literally woke up. I had a dream of a white guy in boxes, and I woke up with the most irrational thought that I had suddenly become gay. I felt my identity had come collapsing. I felt everything in my world had shaken overnight.  I threw up in the toilet that morning, and at that time I was in the modeling industry. Looking back now, I was going through disordered eating, and I'm very careful with using the word “eating disorder.” That's why I call it “disordered eating.” I was never formally diagnosed, but I used to starve myself. I took diuretics to maintain a certain cheekbone structure. Because in the industry that I was in, I was comparing myself to a lot of the young men that were there, believing that I needed to look a certain kind of way.  When I look back at my photos now, I was very gaunt-looking. I was being positively affirmed by all the people around me. I hated how round my face was. If I woke up in the morning and my face was round, I would drink about four liters of water with cleavers tincture. I took dandelion extracts. Those are some of the things that I took to drain my lymphatic system. I went on this quest for a model face. And then eventually, I left the industry because it just wasn't healthy for me in any way, shape, or form. I was still living with this fear that I was gay. If I went to the sauna and steam room in the gym, I would just obsess 24/7 that if I could notice the guy's got a good-looking body, or if he's good-looking, this meant I'm gay. It was just constant, 24/7. From the minute I slept to the minute I woke up, it was always there.  Then that fear moved on to sexual assault. I had a really big panic attack where I was terrified. I asked one of my friends, “Are you sure I haven't done anything? Are you sure I haven't done anything?” I kept asking her over and over. I screamed at her to leave because I was so scared. I must've been hearing voices, and I was terrified that I could potentially hurt her. I tried to go to sleep that night, and there were suicide images in my head, blood, and I was like, “There's something up.” I just didn't know what was going on. I had no scooby, nothing.  That night, I went to the hospital, and the mental health team said that they probably would suggest I get therapy. I said, “It's cool. I'll go and find my own therapist.” I started therapy, and the therapy made me a hundred times worse. I was doing talk therapy. We were trying to get to the root of all my thoughts. We were trying to figure out my childhood. Don't get me wrong, there's relevance to that. By that time, it was not what I needed.  And then last year, this is when everything was happening in regards to the breakdown that I had as well. I got to such a bad point with my mental health that I no longer wanted to be alive. I wanted time to swallow me up. I couldn't understand the thoughts I was having. I was out in front of my friends, and I had really bad suicidal thoughts. I believed I was suicidal right off the bat. I got into an Uber, called all my friends, and just told them I'm depressed and I no longer want to be alive. I'm the kind of guy in the friendship group everyone looks up to, almost in some ways, as a leader, so people didn't really know what to do. That's me saying as a self-elected leader. That's me being reflective about my friendship group. But I woke up one day, and it was a Saturday, the 4th of June, and I just said, “I can't do this anymore.” I said, “I can't do this.” I was prepared to probably take my life, potentially. I reached out to hundreds of people via Instagram, LinkedIn, WhatsApp, email, wherever it was, begging for help because I looked on the internet and was trying to figure out what was it that was going on with me. I was like, “Why am I having certain thoughts, but I don't want to act on them?” And OCD popped up, so I believed I had OCD.  When I found this lady called Emma Garrick (The Anxiety Whisperer) on Saturday, the 4th of June, I just pleaded with her for a phone call. She picked up the phone, and I just burst out in tears. I said, “What's wrong with me?” I said, “I don't want to hurt anyone. Why am I having the thoughts I'm having?” And she said, “Shaun, you have OCD.” From there on, my life changed dramatically. We began therapy on Monday. I would cry for about two hours in a session. I couldn't cope. I lost my job. There were so many different things that happened that year.  In that same year, obviously, I had OCD. I tore my knee ligaments in my right knee. Then I ended up in the hospital with pneumonia. Then my auntie died. Then my cousin was unfortunately murdered. Then my half-brother died. Then my auntie—it's one of my aunties that helped to raise me when my dad died on Christmas day when I was six—her cancer spread from the pancreas to the liver.  Then fast-forward it to this year, about a couple of months ago, that same auntie, the cancer became terminal and spread from the liver to the spleen. I watched her die, and that was tough. Then I had my surgery on August the 14th. But I'm still paying my way through debt. It was an incredibly tough journey. I'm still doing the rehab for my knee, still doing the rehab for OCD.  That's my journey. I'm still thinking about it to this day. Me and my therapist talk about this, and he has lived experience of OCD. I still don't even know what's kept me alive at this point, but that's the best way to describe my story. That's a shortened, more condensed version for people listening. Kimberley: Can I ask, what does keep you going? Shaun: What keeps me going? If I'm being very honest, I don't know sometimes. There are days when I've really struggled with darkness, sadness, and a sense of hopelessness sometimes. I ride it out. I try not to give in to those suicidal thoughts that pop up. And then I remember I've got a community that I've been able to create, a community that I'm able to help and inspire other people. I think I keep going on my worst days because the people around me need someone to keep inspiring them. What I mean by that is some of the messages I've got on the internet, some of them have made me cry. Some of them have made me absolutely break down from some people who have opened up to me and shared their entire story. They look up to me, and I'm just like, “Wow, I can't give up now. This isn't the end.” I've had really dark moments, and I think a lot of people look at my story and perhaps look at my social media, and they think I'm healed and I've fully recovered. But my therapist has seen me at my worst, and they see me at my absolute best.  I think I stay here. What keeps me pushing is to help other people, to give other people a chance, and to let them know that you can live a life with OCD, anxiety. Depression I'm not sure if I fully align with. Maybe to some degree, but to let them know they can live a life in spite of that. I don't know. Again, I keep saying this to my therapist. There's something in me that just refuses to quit. I don't know what it is. I can't put it into words sometimes. I don't know. Maybe it's to leave the world in a better place than I found it. I really do not know.  Kimberley: I think I'm so intrigued. I'm so curious here. I think that this is such a conversation for everyone to have. I will tell you that it's interesting, Shaun, because I'm so grateful for you, number one, that we're having this conversation, and it's so raw. Somebody a few months ago asked me, what's the actual point of all this? It was her asking me to do a podcast on the point, what's the point of all this? I wrote it down and started scripting out some ideas, and I just couldn't do the episode because I don't know the answer either. I don't know what the point is. But I love this idea that we're talking about of what keeps us going when things are so hard. Because I said you're obviously resilient, and you're like, “No, that's not it.” But you are. I mean, so clearly you are. It's one of your qualities. But I love this idea of what keeps you going.  In the day, in the moment to moment, what goes through your mind that keeps you moving towards? You're obviously getting treatment; you're obviously trying to reduce compulsions, stop rumination, or whatever that might be. What does that sound like in your brain that keeps you going? Shaun: Before I answer that, I think I've realized what my answer would be for what keeps me going. I think it's hope because it makes me feel a bit emotional. When I was at my absolute worst, I had lost hope, lost everything. I lost my job. I end up in mountains of debt that I'm still paying off. It's to give hope to other people that your life can get better. I would say it has to be hope.  In those day-to-day moments, one of my really close friends, Dave, has again seen me at my worst and my best. Those day-to-day moments are incredibly tough. I've had to learn to do things even when I don't want to do them. I've had to learn to eat when I don't always want to eat, to stick to the discipline, to stick to the process, to get out of bed, and to keep pushing that something has to change. These hard times cannot last forever. But those day-to-day moments can be incredibly tough when my themes change, when I mourn my old life with OCD in the sense that I never thought consciously about a lot of my decisions. Whereas now, I think a lot more about what I do, the impact I have on the world, and the repercussions of certain decisions that I make.  I would say a lot of my day-to-day, those moment-to-moments, is a bit more trepidation. I think that would be the best way to describe my day-to-day moments. I was just going to say, I was even saying to my friend that I can't wait to do something as simple as saving money again. I'm trying to clear off everything to restart and just the simple things of being able to actually just save again, to be able to get into a stable job to prove to myself that I can get my life back.   Kimberley: To me, the reason that I'm so, again, grateful that we're here talking about this is it really pulls on all of the themes that we get trained in in psychology in terms of taking one step at a time. They talk about this idea of grit, like you keep getting up even though you get knocked down. I don't think we talk about that enough. Also, the fact that most people who have OCD or a mental health issue are also handling financial stresses and, like you said, medical conditions, grief, and all of these things. You're living proof of these concepts and you're here telling us about them. How does that land for you? Or do you want to maybe speak to that a little more? Shaun: I was reading a book on grits. I was listening to it, and they were talking about how some people are just grittier than other people. Some people may not be as intelligent or may not be as “naturally gifted,” but some people are grittier than other people. A lot of people who live with chronic conditions such as OCD or whatever else, you have to be gritty. That's probably a quality you really have to have every single day without realizing it. To speak to that, even on the days when I have really struggled, as I said, I don't know what always gets me up. There's something inside.  I look around at the other people around me who've shown grit as well—other people around me who have worked through it. The therapist I have, he's a really good therapist. I listen to his story, Johnny Say, and he talks about something called gentle relentlessness, the idea that you just keep being relentless very gently. You know that one step-a-day kind of mentality that, “Okay, cool, I'm having these thoughts today. I'm going to show myself some compassion, but I'm going to keep moving.” For me, when I speak to him, I tell him he inspires me massively because he's perfected and honed his skills so much of OCD that he's able to do the job that he does. He's able to help other people, and that inspires me. When I look at the other people around me, I'm inspired by other people's grit and perseverance as well. That really speaks to what I need to be able to have. I think it's modeled a lot for me. Even in my own personal life with my mom, there's a lot of things that we've gone through—my father, who died on Christmas Day when I was six—and she had to be gritty in her own way to raise a single boy in the UK when she was in a country she didn't want to be in because of my granddad.  I think grit has been modeled for me. I think it really has been role-modeled for me in so many different ways. When people say, “Just get up and keep going,” I think it's such a false notion that people really don't understand the complexity of human emotions and don't understand that, as humans, we go up and we go down. A very long time ago, I used to be that kind of human where I was like, “Just get out, man. Suck it up. Just keep going, bro. You can do this. You've got this.” I think going through my own stuff has made me realize sometimes we don't always feel like we've got it. We have to follow the plan, not the mood sometimes. But I honestly have to say, I think grit has been role-modeled a lot for me. Kimberley: Yeah. It's funny, as you were talking, I was thinking too. I think so often—you talked about this idea of hope—we need to know that somebody else has achieved what we want to achieve. If we have that modeled to us, even if it's not the exact thing, that's another thing that keeps us going. You've got a mentor, you've got a therapist. Or for those of you who don't have a mentor or therapist, it might be listening to somebody on a podcast and being like, “Well, if they can do it, there has to be hope for me.” I think sometimes if we haven't got those people in our lives, we maybe want to look for people to inspire and model grit and keep going for us, would you say?  Shaun: Absolutely. Funnily enough, when I was going through depression as a compulsion, my friend sent me your podcast about depression as a compulsion. The idea is that you feel this depressive feeling, you start investigating it, trying to figure out if you're depressed, and then it becomes a compulsion. And then, after that compulsion happens, you stay in this spiral with depression or whatever it might be. That's something else I realized—that having your podcast and listening to talking about being kind, self-criticism, and self-compassion was role modeled a lot for me because, again, growing up, I didn't have self-compassion. It's not something we practice in the household or the culture I'm from. But having it role-modeled for me was so big. It is huge. I cannot even put into words how important it is to have people around you who still live with something you live with, and they keep going, because it almost reminds you that it's not time to give up.  Sadly, I've lost friends to suicide. I found out that someone had died in 2021 at what I thought he had died. We met at a modeling agency when I was modeling. We met at the Black Lives Matter march as well, regardless of whatever your political opinions are for anyone listening. I found that he had died. I remember I messaged some of the friends we had in common. I was like, “What happened?” And nobody knew. A couple of weeks ago, I just typed in his name. Out of nowhere, I just typed, and I was like, “What happened to him?” I found that he had taken his life when he was in university halls. I was just like, "You really don't know what people are going through." Some people have messaged me and said what I talk about has kept them going. I'm just sitting there like, “Wow, other people have kept me going.” I think that becomes a role-modeled community almost in some ways.  Kimberley: For sure. It's funny you mention that. I too have lost some very close people to me from suicide. I think the role model thing goes both directions in that it can also be hard sometimes when people you really love and respect have lost their lives to suicide. I think that we do return to hope, though. I think for every part of me that's pained by the grief that I feel, hope fuels me back into, how can I help? Maybe I could save one person's life. Actually, sometimes helping just gets me through a hard day as well. I can totally resonate. I think you're right. There is a web of inspiration. You inspire somebody else. They inspire you. They've been inspired by somebody. It's like a ladder. Shaun: Absolutely. I once heard someone say, the best way to lose yourself is in the service of others. One of the things that really got me through depression when I was at the thickest of my OCD was when I said, "How am I going to go and serve other people? How am I going to go and help other people?" When I asked my first therapist, I said, “Why are you so kind to me? Why do you believe in me?” she told me something that really sat with me. She said, “I believe you're going to go on to help so many other people.” When I released my first story on August the 14th, and I had so many people reach out to me that I knew, people I didn't know speaking about OCD, I was like, “This is where it begins. That in the suffering, there is hope. In the suffering, I can live. In the suffering, I can find purpose. In the suffering, I can use that to propel me out of pain.”  But you are right. This conversation has really made me think a lot about how I keep going, like how I've been able to just keep pushing because my friends are, again, around me. My therapist knows that there are days when I don't want to do my therapy. I've gone to my physiotherapist, and I've said, “You have no idea what I've gone through.” I said, “I'm not feeling to do anything. I just want to give up right now.” I said, “I'm tired of this.” I said, “Why is life so hard on me?” Death is one thing. Physical injury is another thing. OCD is another thing. Chasing money is another thing. Everything is a constant uphill battle. It really has made me think a lot about life. It's made me think a lot about my friends who have opened up to me about their struggles.  Very similar to you, Kimberley, I want to go on to, at some point, become a therapist and change people's lives. When people reach out to me, I would love to be able to say to someone, if someone said, “I can't afford a therapist,” I'd be like, “Let me try and help you and see what I can do on my part.” That kind of kindness or that kind of empathy, that kind of lived experience, that understanding—it's something I really want to give back to other people. It's hope. Hope is everything.   Kimberley: Yeah. It's ever-changing, too. Some days you need one thing, and the next day you need others. For me, sometimes it's hope. Sometimes it's, like you said, day-to-day grit. Sometimes it's stubbornness, like I'm just straight-up stubborn. You know what I mean?  Shaun: It's funny you say that.  Kimberley: We can draw on any quality to get us through these hard things that keep us going. My husband always says too, and now that we're exploring it and I'm thinking about it, because you and I did not prepare for this, we are really just riffing here—my husband always says when I've had a really hard time, which in the moment sounds so silly and so insignificant, but it has also helped, amongst these other things, “Put on the calendar something you're really looking forward to and remind yourself of that thing you're going towards every day. It doesn't even have to be huge, but something that brings you joy, even if it's got nothing to do with the hard thing you're going through.” I've also found that to be somewhat beneficial, even if it's a dinner with friends or a concert or an afternoon off to yourself, off work. That has also been really beneficial to me. Shaun: Yeah. Taking aim at things in the future can give you things to really look forward to. In the thickest of my OCD, I had nothing to look forward to sometimes. I remember I turned down modeling jobs because of my anxiety. The only thing I could look forward to was my therapist, and that was my silver lining in many, many ways. I remember I would say to her, “I've been waiting for this session the whole week. I've needed this.” Another thing you touched on that I think made me laugh is stubbornness. There is a refusal. There's a refusal to lay down. For example, I make jokes about this. I go to the gym sometimes, and I'll say to the guys, “I've had a knee injury. Why are my legs bigger than yours?” That small little bit of fun and a little bit of gest, a bit of banter, as we would say. I'll go to them, and I'll be like, “I need to show these guys that my legs are still bigger than theirs and I've got an injury. I'm not supposed to be training legs.” Just small things like that have really given me things to look forward to. Something as silly as male ego has been-- I say this to everyone—male, female, anyone. I'm like, “How dare I get sexy? How dare I be mentally unwell but still sexy?” There is an audacity to it. There's a temerity, a gumption, a goal. There is a stubbornness to go out there into the world and to really show people that, again, you can live with it. When I delivered my TEDx talk in 2022 at Sheffield Hallam University about masculinity, I remember a lady came up to me afterwards. This is when I was doing something called German Volume Training. It was heavy, very intense training. I put on a lot of muscle in that short space of time. She came up to me and said, “You do not look like a guy who suffered with his mental health at all.” She said, “You look like the complete opposite.” Because people have this idea that people who live with illness are—there's this archetype in people's heads—timid, maybe a bit unkempt. They don't look after themselves.  It really said a lot to me that there really is no one image of how people look. Even where I live, unfortunately, there's a lady who screams at people. She shaves her hair. She just sits down there. A very long time ago, I would look at people and judge them. One thing I've really learned from living with illness has been we never know what's happened in people's lives that has pushed them to the place of where they are.  There was also another older gentleman, and he smelt very strongly of urine and alcohol. I was on the train with him, and the train was packed. You could just see he was minding his own business. He had a bag on him, and clearly he had alcohol in it. There were two girls that were looking at him with such disgust, contempt, and disdain. It really got to me. It really irked me about the way people looked at him because, in my head, I'm like, “You don't know what that guy's gone through. You just have no idea what led him to become clearly an alcoholic. He probably is potentially homeless as well.” I got off that train, and I just felt my views on things had really changed, really changed in life. Dealing with people just-- I don't know. I've gone off on a tangent, but it's just really sat with me in the sense of looking forward to things—how I look forward to how my views are evolving and how my views on life are changing. Kimberley: Yeah. I'm sort of taking from what you're saying. You bring up another way in which you keep going, which is humor, and I've heard a lot of people say that. A lot of people say humor gets me through the hardest times. You say you make jokes, and that, I think, is another way we can keep going. Shaun: Yeah, you are correct. When I go to the gym and I banter all the guys, I'm laughing at them, and typical male ego—that has really helped me on many, many occasions. Even people around me who we have sit down and we have a laugh. There's times when I quite honestly say to people, my life is a Hollywood movie at this point. I need a book. I need a series of unfortunate events, a trilogy, whatever it might be at this point, because it's almost as if it can't be real. Humor has been a propelling agent in me helping to get better, but it's also been an agent in everything that I do.  My first therapist, Emma, said to me, “OCD leaves you with a really messed-up sense of humor because you've got to learn how to laugh at the thoughts. You've got to learn how to not take everything seriously.” I have had some of the most ludicrous thoughts I could imagine. I told my friend, and she started cracking up at me. She started laughing. She's like, “Do you know how ludicrous this is?” And I said to her, “I know.”  Or, for example, again, at my absolute worst, I couldn't even watch MMA, UFC, or boxing because guys were half naked. I couldn't be around guys who were half naked because of how my sexual orientation OCD used to really play with my head. There were so many ridiculous situations. I would walk outside and I'd have a thought, “Kill the dog,” and I'd be like, “Oh, well, this is bloody fantastic now, isn't it?” I've had images of all sorts in my head. I told my friend, and he started laughing. I was like, “Bro, why are you laughing?” But it made me laugh because it took the seriousness out of what was going on. It really did.  Humor—it's been huge. It's funny how that can even maneuver into the concept of cancel culture because there was a comedian who has OCD, and he said, “When was being clean really a bad thing?” I know, obviously, we know the way people see OCD, but he drew light on the fact that he has quite severe OCD himself. He's using humor clearly to help him get better. But humor has been another thing. Humor, stubbornness, grit, resilience—all these things in my life experience have really helped me to still be here. I still say that as a guy who hasn't been paid this month from work. I'm on sick leave. I'm still trying to find ways to make money. I'm still trying to train to become a therapist. I'm applying for courses. I've applied for a hundred jobs within the National Health Service over here in the UK. That's just to put it into perspective. Again, as my therapist would say, a gentle relentlessness to keep pushing humor to find some of the joy and some of the sadness that happens. Kimberley: I cannot tell you how grateful I am that you have allowed us to go here today. I think this is the conversation that we needed to have today, both of us. My heart is so full. Can people hear more about where they can get in touch with you, hear more about you? You've talked so beautifully about the real hard times and what's gotten you through. Where might people get ahold of you? Shaun: I say to people, you can reach out to me on Instagram, TikTok, wherever you want. I say to people, just reach out, and please feel free to message me. I don't know whether this has happened to you, Kimberley. Some people reach out to me when they're really struggling with their OCD, and then some people I never hear from again. Some people don't turn up to phone calls. I think for a lot of people, there's a big fear that if they reach out to me, I'm going to hear something that I've never heard. I can honestly say to people, I've had every thought you could imagine. I've had the most ludicrous thoughts. I've had pretty much every single theme at this point. I really want, and I really encourage people to please reach out and have a conversation with me. You can find me anywhere on social media. Kimberley: I have so enjoyed this conversation. Are there any final statements you want to make to finish this off? Shaun: If you give up now, you'll never see what life would look like on the other side. That's the one thing I think I have to really say. Kimberley: It's amazing. Thank you.