Podcasts about scott oh

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Linktree: https://linktr.ee/AnalyticNotorious Mass Effect Segment: Ice Spice's "Y2K" - A Deep DiveThis segment offers a comprehensive analysis of Ice Spice's debut album, "Y2K." We dissect the album's concept, sound, and lyrical themes, exploring how it positions Ice Spice within the evolving landscape of hip-hop. Key tracks, collaborations, and the album's commercial performance are discussed, as well as Ice Spice's personal and professional growth reflected in the music.The segment also examines the critical reception of the album, including Ice Spice's stage presence and how it has evolved. We delve into the cultural impact of "Y2K," Ice Spice's unique positioning in the industry, and the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead for her career.Listeners will gain insights into the creative process behind "Y2K," the album's significance in Ice Spice's discography, and its potential impact on the music industry.Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/analytic-dreamz-notorious-mass-effect/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Linktree: https://linktr.ee/AnalyticNotorious Mass Effect: Ice Spice Steals the Show at Travis Scott's London ConcertAnalytic Dreamz breaks down the surprise performance that sent shockwaves through the hip-hop world! Ice Spice joined Travis Scott onstage in London, igniting the crowd with a debut of their fiery new collaboration, OH SH**."We'll delve into the details:The electrifying atmosphere of the surprise guest appearance.A deep dive into OH SH** ," the highly anticipated collaboration.Analysis of Ice Spice's setlist, offering clues about her upcoming album.This segment is a must-listen for fans of:Ice SpiceTravis ScottSurprise concert momentsHot new music debutsThe ever-evolving soundscape of hip-hopSupport this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/analytic-dreamz-notorious-mass-effect/donationsAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Episode 55 - IP & Thoracic Oncology - Scott Oh by AABIP

May 2, 2023 — Comments from Sen. Tim Scott (R-SC) about his expected 2024 presidential campaign; Christale Spain becomes the first Black woman to chair the South Carolina Democratic Party; a look at the final days of the state legislative session; and more. Leave us a voicemail at 803-563-7169 to share your thoughts about the topics covered on the show or just whatever's on your mind!

Scott Dennis, Assistant Superintendent of the Maryland Division of Rehabilitative Services (DORS), joins Carol Pankow in the VRTAC-QM Studio and tells us about how Maryland DORS increased recruitment and decreased resignations by raising salaries to compete in the regional job market. Learn how they opened the door and proved the case.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Scott Dennis, assistant superintendent of the Maryland Division of Rehabilitative Services or DORS, is joining me in the studio today. So thanks for joining me. How are things going in Maryland, Scott.   Scott: Things are going well, Carol. I appreciate the opportunity to join today's podcast. Excellent.   Carol: So a little background for our listeners. I did have some familiarity with Maryland DORS. I had worked with Sue Page. She was the former director and a national level. We were on the executive committee together and Sue and I also did a couple panel presentations and that was super fun. And I was so disappointed, you know, when she had retired in '18, I had just worked with her. And then like the next week she goes, I'm retiring. She had sent me a note and I knew you had been her deputy and I think you were named right in 2019 to replace her, was that right?   Scott: Yeah. I came into this position an acting role in 2018. Sue left in June of 2018 and I was named, the Acting. Was permanently placed into the position in January of 2019.   Carol: Gotcha.   Scott: Almost five years now.   Carol: Nice. Well, it was really fun because early in '19 you and I, we were working on that RSA workgroup around Rethinking Performance. So I liked getting to know you and realizing, Oh, you're the fiscal guy too. You were the fiscal guy for the agency. So it's been fun to have that kind of a little lens into your agency. So I know you've had some unique challenges that we're going to get into later. And I understand that there had been some previous runs at trying to get employee wages increased, which, you know, had failed. So this was all prior to you being at the helm. And the state of the recruitment and retention issue nationally has been front and center for every VR agency, I think. And you were able to more recently secure a rather significant employee pay increase. So I am sure our listeners are on the edge of their seats and are anxious to hear, How did you make that happen? So let's dig in. So Scott, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, like how long you've been with DORS and how have you got to the position you hold today? What's kind of the path you took?   Scott: Well, sure. I kind of happened into VR. I was working in a private sector in retail and was looking to do something different than that. And as anybody who's ever worked in retail, there's a lot of long hours that are very odd and so forth. So I was looking to do something different and happened to come across an advertisement in the paper for a director for this program called the Business Enterprise Program for the Blind.   Carol: Oh, wow.   Scott: It kind of struck me. And so I said, Well, I've got a retail background, I've got a business background, let me get my shot at it. And so I put in my application and went through the interview process. And about four months later in 1990, I became the director of the Maryland Business Enterprise Program for the Blind, which was kind of unique because my background was not in the area of either VR or in blindness, but I did bring that business background, which is what the agency at the time was looking for. It was a great experience. The business enterprise programs for the blind bring their own unique challenges and so forth, and trying to operate a business environment inside of a state government. And you've got some real challenges in trying to do stuff fast and an organization is trying to slow you down. But it was a great experience. I was the director for BEP for six years and then our state director, who was Bob Burns at the time, said, I need some help over at DDS. And I went, What's a DDS? Because my focus had been strictly on BEP. And so he sent me over to the Disability Determination Services as the assistant director over there, and I oversaw sort of the administrative side of the DDS and did a number of activities over there. We moved into a much larger facility. We also at that time moved off a state legacy system onto *Levi. And for any of those who have been around a long time and have a program, you understand how far back that went. After about five years of DDS, moved over, back over here to the side of the shop and became the director of business services, which included all the administrative functions of the agency and sort of the financial piece of it. And so I was that until 2018 when I became the assistant state superintendent.   Carol: Very cool. I had no clue. Your days started with BEP. That is amazing. Good for you. You have a definitely a great broad history there. Paint a picture for our listeners about DORS and what agency you live under. What's your designated state agency and how many staff do you have in VR? And you already said you had DDS, but is that service under your purview as well?   Scott: Yeah, we're  housed within the Maryland State Department of Education. We're probably one of the first big divisions of the Maryland State Department of. We were created in 1929 and we at that time the division had two employees and a budget of $15,000. And the only reason I know any of this is because we've got the enacting legislation sitting out in the hall. We had two employees and $15,000 worth of state appropriation at the time. And of the two employees, one was the director of the agency and the other one was his secretary. He was also the counselor at the time as well. So obviously but we've been here ever since. The Division of Rehabilitation Services is comprised of two main programs that we operate are the VR program, obviously, as well as the program. In total, we've got 648 employees in total, of which 416 of them reside in the VR program and the remaining 232 reside in the DDS program. Within that VR program operates an Office of Field Services, which is very much operated the way the general agencies operate and then we have an Office of Blindness and Vision Services, which operate very much as a blind agency. And so we have a director of each one of those offices. They have their own budget and own staff and so forth. Then we also operate our Workforce and Technology center, which does a lot of our training and so forth, as well as a number of community based services out in the field and so forth. So yeah.   Carol: Yeah, you have a large operation. Holy cow. I didn't realize all of that. That's a bunch.   Carol: So let's talk about your unique position as far as the state. You border other states, as does every state. You know, people probably think duh, but there's something special about where your state is positioned in this country, because I always hear people say that you're the training ground for people that move to RSA. Can you talk about like what that geographical situation has played for you as far as your staff?   Scott: Yeah, and appreciate that. It does provide a unique situation for us. We border Delaware, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia as well as D.C. We do have some challenges, especially when we're competing with the federal government. And so because of the federal agencies that are housed here, it has become a real challenge because obviously the states don't pay as much as the federal government does, in particular around the Washington, D.C. area. The salaries are much higher than what we as an agency was able to offer. I mean, in some cases we'd have staff leave and they would nearly double their salaries as a result of that. In some cases, you just can't blame them. It has been a challenge having some of that federal government around, you know, as especially the presence of it, you know, large presence and so forth.   Carol: So we all know about this great resignation, you know, that's been talked about in the news. VRs experienced that itself. So how has that impacted what was happening in your agency? What were you facing for vacancy?   Scott: We were facing a high level of resignation. It was almost I hate coming in in the morning and turning on my computer and opening my email to see how many people resigned that particular day or week. And so we got hit pretty hard. We had about 40 counselors and supervisors, so it was about 30% of our workforce. We had vacancies in and that's on the VR side, on the side. You know, for those agencies that operate that, we had 59 vacancies and our examiners, which was about 45% of that. And, you know, the big culprit was they were going elsewhere, both private and public, to organizations that were paying them substantially more money than what we could afford, at least at the time. It hit us bad.   Carol: Well, I know your number's up there. I'd heard from some other directors talking about you like a 60% turnover in counselors and all these crazy numbers. It's hard to imagine how the work is able to get done. So obviously, you've got this geographic situation, you've got the great resignation going on, and you decided to embark on a journey where you wanted to get these wages increased. Can you tell us more about what went into that?   Scott: It was more than just me. I mean, it was a total agency effort. And I'm talking about from the top. In 2021, we got a new state superintendent who was from Texas. And so he was obviously very new, very young and high energy. And so being one of the large divisions and he wanted to have a one on one with me. And so we sat down and we talked. And what he wanted to know what DORS was to begin with and what VR was because he'd always been in education and so forth. And so we, you know, we talked and his first question, you know, real serious question was, what's your biggest challenge? I said, I can't hire, I can't retain because our salaries are so low. And I gave him an example. I said, we've had a recruitment out for three weeks now and we've got one person who is applying and they don't even meet the qualifications down in Montgomery County and Prince George's County, which are two largest counties in the state as far as population, but they're also the two counties that encircle Washington, D.C. And so the obviously the wages down there are extremely high because of the federal government. And so getting any staff at the wages that we were paying was next to impossible. We couldn't recruit, period. That was just the part of the problem. And so, you know, after I told him what the wages were, he even coming from the south out of Texas, even by his standards, the wages were low. So he put together, you know, he tasked the senior management, not only of the Maryland State Department of Education, but also of DORS to start working on a salary adjustment. Obviously, with something like this, it takes all hands on deck because it's just not one person who's doing all the work and guiding this. And so he tasked us and so my staff started doing feelers out to other states to find out what they're going for. We looked at the federal government and some of the positions that they were hiring for that had sort of equal entry level requirements. We looked at our counties. Some of our counties were paying way more than what we were. And so we took all that into consideration in looking at what is it that we wanted our salaries to look like. The other piece of this that was probably sort of the saving grace for us. Our counselors are in a classification series in this state that's only unique to DORS. It doesn't cross other state agencies or anything. And because of that, our Department of Budget and Management allowed us to do what they call an off cycle adjustment. Typically when they take a look at their salary adjustments and so forth and see whether they need to rescale them, they're looking across all the state agencies. They've got to balance who's got money and who doesn't, money when they start to raise salaries for, you know, let's say, an office secretary. Well, every agency has an office secretary. So they've got to have to balance this all out. When they say, okay, we're going to raise the office secretary's levels, well, they only had to look at us. They didn't have to compare us to anybody else, which made it a lot easier. And because a lot of our salaries, the way the state funds us, they put most of our state match dollars into our case services budgets. And so we've got just a small amount that actually goes towards salary. And so when we kind of pulled this together and say, okay, where can we go with this? We said, Hey, for a little bit of investment from the state side, we've got more than enough appropriation and federal funding over here. We can support this without any problem. So the meeting started in September. We kind of got going in earnest just after the Christmas holidays. We spent basically from October through December polling just gathering information. And then in from about January on, we started writing this up, getting everything put together. And then by late April we had the package ready together and we presented it to our Office of Budget and Management and Director of State personnel, and we suggested a threshold that we thought we could go to. They didn't quite agree with that. So there was some negotiating with the Department of Budget and Management, but we landed on a on a figure that was acceptable that they could live with that wasn't so far off that they were going to have problems with other state agencies as well, once they learned about what we had done. Our superintendent really wanted to push our salaries. He wanted it to be the highest in the nation.   Carol: Wow!   Scott: And he was pushing very hard to get us there. Didn't land there.   Carol: So how far did you get? How high did you get to go?   Scott: We got a substantial pay increase for them. We got, depending upon where they started, it was well over 20% pay increase for our counselors and examiners, which really stabilized it. I mean, it kind of gives you an idea, our salaries, starting salaries for what we call our VR counselor ones, which are individuals who come in with just a bachelor's degree, no experience. So we kind of have to build them up. We were starting at like 41,000 between 41 and 42. Our VR 2-counselors are individuals who have come in with a master's degree, no experience or some experience. And they were starting around 44,000 at the time and we were able to get them up. I mean, today our starting salary for counselor one is 57,000 and a couple of months with the new fiscal year will go to 58. Our twos were starting them at 60,000 and they'll go up to 62 in July. And then we have a technical specialist series and these are for individuals who again, have master's degrees, have been here a couple of years. They're starting in the upper 60s and low 70s now.   Carol: Yeah, good for you. That's pretty amazing. So were there other positions included? So it's not like your examiners or counselors. Were there any other types of positions in the agency include?   Scott: Well, we had to go back and do a readjustment because it affected both our counselors and our supervisors because it's a series of counselors, one, twos, technical specialists and supervisors. Then we have our regional supervisors and our regional directors. Well, because of it went up by grades and steps. Basically our regional supervisors were making the same thing as our office supervisors now. And so we had to raise them. When we raised the regional supervisors, they were making the same thing as the regional directors. So we had to raise the regional directors, but it had to happen over the course of time. The first push was the counselor series and so forth, and then we had to come back about a month later and do the rest of the others and so forth. So yeah, it's been sort of a work in progress and we still have some other classifications to take a look at as we kind of move down this path.   Carol: I wondered about that. If you had some work left to do.   Scott: Yeah, yeah, we do. We have to kind of go back. I mean, our support staff, we've got to go back and we've already started that work already to start looking at that group as well, because again, those classifications go across all state agencies, so we have no authority to raise those salaries. So we have to go back and do what we call a reclass them, which means we have to take a look at their classifications, see whether or not it still fits the job duties and so forth. So that's the only way I can raise that series, those individuals up. I just can't do what we did with the counselors. And in some cases, those salaries and all that are all controlled by the union.   Carol: Yes.   Scott: And so you've got to kind of have to work through all that stuff. So those positions take a little bit longer to kind of get through.   Carol: That makes good sense. So how long did that take you for this?   Scott: The first like I said, we started in 20. We started in September when I first met and we started in September. Late October.   Carol: Was that 2021?   Scott: Right.   Carol: Okay.   Scott: And then the pay raise went into effect on July 1st of 2022. So it took us nine months to kind of get it all put together and work through all the processes and doing the negotiation and so forth. So yeah.   Carol: And it's interesting because you are a union state as well. I came from a union state too, so there's extra things that go into play because I know some other folks have been successful across the country, but they didn't have that added complexity to it. So it was good to see you were able to do this in that environment.   Scott: Yeah, well, I mean, one of the things is even though we're part of a union, because the series is strictly DORS, we brought the union in once we had kind of got everything kind of worked through and said, okay, here's what we've done. They could have said, Yeah, no, we don't want you getting a pay raise. We worked at it that way just because and we had to cross even within our parent agency, if our parent agency, the Department of Education had a classification series and some of the stuff that they did, this would have never happened.   Carol: right.   Scott: Because of that uniqueness, we were able to get it done.   Carol: Yeah, the stars were aligned for you, for sure. So how have these increases impacted your staff recruitment and retention?   Scott: Oh, yeah. Big. I mean, it's like I mentioned earlier, we couldn't find staff or if we did, our supervisors and directors were making the decision of, I got to have a body, and so in some cases you're just getting a warm body. This has nothing to do with the person or anything like that. But they were probably individuals that this may not have been the best fit. But because you're sitting there as a supervisor and you've got 3 or 4 empty caseloads sitting on your desk, at least if I can get them in and get them do some work that's less work that I've got to do and so forth. So we were making some decisions on trying to sort of balance whether this was the right fit for people, but also looking at the number of people that are actually applying for the job was extremely low. I mean, we might come up with 4 or 5 individuals that make like really good candidates. And then when you made salary offer to them, they went, Uh, no thanks. In some cases we actually had made salary offers to individuals who had interned with us and wanted to work for us. And then we made the salary offer and they went, no thanks.   Carol: They're like, I can go work at Target instead.   Scott: You're exactly right. Because the salary, especially down in Prince George's and it is extremely high. Maryland has the highest median income in the country. You know, it's driven by about 3 to 4 counties in this state that drive that. And so that kind of shows you how tough it is in some other jurisdictions to find people and retain people is extremely difficult. Like I said, you know, one of those recruitments was just before we put out the salary change where we had gotten one individual. We got the permission to start publishing the new salary and we went from 1 to 40 in about two weeks.   Carol: Wow. Good for you.   Scott: For example, we had a recruitment out for this for about a month and maybe have gotten 25 to 30 applications. We re-advertised and got 170 in 3 weeks. So we went from 30 people to well over 200. So it obviously had a tremendous impact. In fact, I just had a regional director in talking with me earlier this week, talking about the quality of individuals that we're now seeing, because I haven't seen this high level of quality of people that we've gotten in years. So yeah, the impact has been immediate.   Carol: That's terrific. Have you had any staff want to come back? Maybe that left?   Scott: Well, actually, funny you asked that. We went back out to we had several staff. members who left 3 or 4 months earlier, and these were good staff. Sometimes you have staff leave and you go, thank God. Other times, you know, you see staff go out the door and you go, What a loss. And so we had about a half a dozen staff that had recently left that were sort of, oh, man, I hate to lose them. And so we reached back out to them and we were able to get four out of those six back. We almost got five back. But when they went to talk to their new employer, they went, Oh, we'll give you a pay raise. So she ended up getting a pay raise out of it because we told her what we were going to give her and they went higher. That's the benefit of a private sector situation versus, you know, state government type of situation. So we were able to get some seasoned staff back really quick. I mean, literally within weeks after the new pay plan went into effect. So yeah, it's stabilized. I'm seeing right now what I would consider sort of normal turnover. Now you're back down to 5 to 6% turnover rate versus 25 to 30% turnover rate. It's really made a made a difference in the world. It's stabilized the agency. We have a wait list. We had to basically shut it down because we had so many vacancies. I mean, we have had one and we were bringing people off the wait list. We just had to literally just shut it down. We couldn't handle. The individuals that were coming in the door that met the criteria for Category one. We were struggling with that along with our pre-employment. We just couldn't handle. We couldn't do it. So we shut it down.  Once we got stable. Our regional directors and director of Office Field services came to me and said, We can handle bringing people off the waitlist now. And so we've been able to start bringing people back off the waitlist now.   Carol: Good for you. That is terrific news is a big win all the way around. I just wondered if you had any advice for other directors and leaders across the country as there may be interested in doing something like this in their state. What advice would you give them?   Scott: The biggest advice is you've got to get buy in from your senior secretary, superintendent, whoever is your most senior, most person in the agency, because at the end of the day, they're the ones that are really going to have to go to bat and particularly when you start dealing with the counterparts over at your budget office who are always going, Oh, that's going to cost us a dollar. No, I don't think so. That's where you really need to have sort of that political clout to kind of push some of this stuff through, because it's not, it's not easy. And again depending upon the environment, to some degree, we benefited from the environment itself because obviously we weren't the only state agency losing people. And so the state, I think, recognized that they had to do something. Because even other state agencies around us couldn't hire people because of the state wage. And so I think we kind of hit it right at the right time, so we were able to do it. So I think the combination of two. One, we had a superintendent who had no problem to go banging on the secretary of budget management's door and say, I need this in order for this program to function and opening the door and then letting the rest. of the team go to work and prove the case.   Carol: I Like that you said that, prove the case. So if folks wanted to reach out to you. What would be the best way for them to contact you? Because a lot of times our listeners will say, I want to talk to Scott Dennis about what he just said.   Scott: Yeah, I mean, anybody can reach out to me. My email address is Scott Dot Dennis (D e n n i s) @maryland.gov.   Carol: Excellent. I really appreciate you joining me today and congratulations on the win. I just wish you continued success as you're working through your other positions. This is very cool. Thanks, thanks much.   Scott: Not a problem. Thank you, Carol.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Ever wanted to know what it takes to create a TV pilot? In this special episode, Anne is joined by Scott & Miranda Parkin to discuss Comet Casino. Comet Casino is a story centered around found family. It talks about those relationships & friendships that grow so near and dear that they feel like family. Scott & Miranda voice two of the characters, but were heavily involved in the creation of the show. From planning out the story to animating, Miranda was in charge and excited about this mid-century modern tale. After two year, the pilot episode is ready & shipped out to all the right people. So what's next for the duo? There may be more planning, creating, and meeting taking in their future…but you have to listen up to hear the whole story.    Transcript   It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.   Anne: Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am so excited and pumped to have the Comet Casino team here with us, special guests Scott and Miranda Parkin. You guys, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Yay!   Scott: Thank you so much for having me. You were an early supporter of this. (inaudible) merch on your show, you donated money, and now we're in the pitch phase. So we really owe a great debt of gratitude to the VO BOSS.   Miranda: Yeah, seriously.    Anne: Well, thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's not hard to support and love what you guys are doing. So for those BOSSes out there who may not be familiar with the famous Comet Casino team, I thought we would start with a little bit of an introduction of each of you so that the BOSSes can get to know you a little bit better. So let's start with Scott,‘cause he's older. (laughs) So Scott, I mean actor, amazing improv instructor, voice actor, I mean everything. Tell us how you got started in the industry and where it's going (laughs) and your life.    Miranda: And your social security number.    Anne: Yes.    Scott: No, that's horrible. That's horrible advice.  I'm from Sacramento, California, and I started in radio when I was in college. I interned at KCAP, the home of rock. When I was around 20, 18, 19 in that sort of range, I was able to weasel my way onto the air with a guy named Kevin Anderson. He got fired, but he made a tape of the time we were together, sent it to Tulsa, Oklahoma. They had us come out for an audition. They asked me if I'd ever been to Oklahoma. And at the time I said, uh, the furthest east I've been is the Nevada side of Heavenly Valley, dude. And that is literally how we all spoke in Northern California. You were more like this, like, are you gonna put change on your car before you go to Tahoe?    Went out there to Oklahoma and did that. And then I got fired again. Came back to Sacramento, got a gig in Dallas, was there for 11 years, got married, got — moved to Los Angeles in, I wanna say ‘98. Had a kid in 2000, got divorced in 2003, done voiceover and writing for television and acting, and I always say you gotta hit it from every angle possible, so I'll do most of the stuff that they'll pay creative wise. So Miranda's been raised on TV sets and in voiceover lobbies and all that. And she started in the business when she was about five.    Miranda: Pretty crazy.    Anne: So, yeah. So Miranda, let's talk about that because you did grow up in the business. Yeah. I'm so excited again to actually see you and talk with you. And so tell us how you kind of got started, and was this something that, because you were around it for all the time when you were small, is it something that you loved right away, or did you kind of grow into it?    Miranda: Well, I mean, I feel like I loved it first because I was like, oh, I just really love reading. Like I love reading out loud. Like that very much fun.    Scott: Nerd!   Miranda: Shut up.    Anne: That was me too. That was me too.    Scott: Yeah.    Miranda: I liked reading out loud. So when they were like, “hey, do you wanna read this thing out loud,” a little five year old? And I was like, yeah, of course I wanna read that thing out loud. So I did. And then I was like, oh, oh, they like it when I do that. That's cool. I like that. You know, I was five, so I didn't really know, but it just made me feel happy, you know? Like I've always loved reading out loud. And then I got paid to talk about SeaWorld, and I'm like, I love animals and I love talking about whales, like of course I, I'm gonna do that.    Anne: Was this when you were five or a little bit later on?    Miranda: A little bit later on because I started when I was five, and then it was kind of went until eight or nine I think. I think nine was when I, I got the --    Scott: When the hammer got dropped.    Miranda: Yeah. Yeah. I got the job of, uh, Lucy in a direct to DVD Peanuts movie. And my mom was like, no, you can't do that. So I was like, oh, alright. I really like reading out loud. I really like the Peanuts.    Scott: But her dad was a voiceover actor, and anything that had something to do with me was --   Anne: Ah.   Scott: Yeah.   Anne: Okay. So there's the six degrees here I think because you said Lucy, right? You read for the —    Miranda: Right.   Anne: Okay. So my maiden name is Lucy. Okay?   Scott: Excellent. Is that true?    Anne: Yes, it's very true. It's very, because people called me Miss Lucy when I was a teacher, and then they would sing, Miss Lucy had a steamboat. The steamboat had a bell. Exactly.    Scott: I forgot you were a teacher. My mom was a teacher for 35 years. I have I have so many teachers throughout our family.    Anne: Well, so that's number one. And number two is that when I was young, when I was about six, when I was in kindergarten, I love to read out loud as well. And here's where my claim to fame, my creative claim to fame is that I wrote books. I wrote books about Nibbles the Rabbit. And as a kindergartner, I read them to the first graders. So that's my claim to fame. I mean, I --   Miranda: Kind of a power move.    Anne: I mean, so Miranda, if I could only be half as good of, and I illustrated and wrote, and you know what I mean? Which is, that's incredible.    Miranda: That's, that's amazing.    Anne: You do everything. And so I just feel like the apple doesn't far fall from the tree there, I think; the writer, artist, voice actor, actor.   Scott: I can't draw a stick figure without uh, without help. So.   Miranda: That's true. He can draw a palm tree and a lightning bolt.    Anne: There you go. Very good.    Scott: And I can draw an oak tree too though.    Miranda: And an oak tree. Oak tree. Sorry, forgot about that. One of the three.    Scott: Yeah.   Anne: I got good at drawing a rabbit as a kindergarten. But other than that --    Miranda: Nibbles the rabbit.    Anne: — that's kind of where it stopped. Although I always was in awe of people who could draw. And so I want to actually talk about Comet Casino because that's really why I wanted to bring you here so that we can talk about the whole process. Because BOSSes out there, if you're listening, the whole concept of Comet Casino is BOSS from start to as it evolves. Because you have encompassed all areas of the creative arts, all areas of funding, of marketing, of starting something and seeing it grow and seeing it evolve. So I love the evolution of Comet Casino. So before we do that, let me show the BOSSes a little preview of what we have here. So let's do this first.    Scott: Can we set it up real quick?    Anne: Yeah. Let, we're gonna set it up right now.    Scott: This is not a trailer. There's no voiceover or anything like that. This is the first 90 seconds of the pilot, and the shuttle attendant is the lovely great Delisle Griffin. And we love it. And so you get an idea of where our story takes place, who are the principals, and what's going on in the first 90 seconds. The whole thing, the whole pilot presentation is just over 10 minutes. There you go.    Miranda: Yeah, there we go.    Anne: All right. We're gonna give you guys the first 90 seconds. All right. Here we go.    >> Attention passengers. We will be landing shortly on Luparif Omari, please return to your seats. If you've morphed during the flight, please regenerate and buckle up. Okay? And remember, as long as you look like you're gambling, they gotta keep bringing you drinks. Good luck.    >> Luparif Omari. Everybody knows it as the loop. Number one adult playground in the galaxy and the armpit of the fucking universe. Everyone is thrilled when they get here and broken, disillusioned when they leave. That's just after a weekend. I spent the first 18 years of my life here. On the loop, after high school, you pretty much have three choices: bartending school, dealer school or alcoholic gambler. I wanted something more. So I went to law school on the nearest planet. After graduation I took a really good job as a defense attorney. It's difficult and none of it comes easy, but okay, it's somewhere else, and that's all that matters.    So what am I doing back here? My dad, owner of the formerly luxurious Comet Casino passed away. How? Uh, he just stopped breathing while a guy was choking him to death, which on the loop is considered natural causes. The loop is 100 miles of casinos, clubs, and general debauchery crammed into a thin band of oxygen. Everything else is toxic. My dad used to drop off associates in the desert when it was time for them to die of natural causes.    >> Hurry. Hurry, everyone.    Anne: Haha, awesome. I love it. And can I tell you that honestly, when I first heard it, I love the beginning, right, with the introduction. But Miranda, when you start telling the story, I teach like storytelling to students for years. And you have such a beautiful, wonderful presentation of storytelling in that, like it is so damn impressive.    Miranda: Hey, I used to love reading stories out loud. Now I do it all the time.    Anne: If Scott knows me, I don't say that lightly. I love, love the performance.    Scott: That's not — this whole thing, this has been two years in the making, and we directed all these legends who are friends of ours and have always supported Miranda. And if Miranda wasn't able to hold their own with these legends, it doesn't work. All of what we've done, it just doesn't work. So.   Miranda: That was one thing that I got scared about. Like I know literally like after we like got all these people to do it, and they were like, all right, now it's time to record your part. And I'm like, oh, I have to actually, I have to go up against these — oh my God. Not, not go up against, but like work with, like be in the same cartoon as, and I'm like, oh my God, that's like a dream come true regardless of where this thing goes.    Scott: Yes. And frightening as hell. And same for me. ‘Cause Miranda actually does video games and animation. I don't do so much of either of those. So after asking these people and then having to, you know, what was really cool was that we recorded our parts at SoundBox LA with Tim Friedlander. So first Miranda and Tim directed me, and then we switched, and Tim and I directed Miranda. So that was really, it was really cool. And he's been so supportive and known Miranda for a very long time. So it was, it was just really cool to do our parts at Tim's with Tim directing.    Miranda: Yeah. ‘Cause he's such a good friend and such a great dude. And he supported it all the way through. It just seemed like a natural fit.    Anne: So let's talk about, how did it all start?    Miranda: Ooh, ooh, ooh. I've got this one.    Anne: Okay.    Scott: Keep it tight and bright.    Miranda: So essentially it started as an FBI agent gets teleported into space and works off her debt at a space casino. So that was like our initial idea. And I wanted to do something    Scott: That was all Miranda's --   Miranda: Yeah. And then I was like, okay, well the FBI thing is kind of silly, stupid. Let's just go with a mother-daughter story about a girl that actually lives in the casino and went to the casino and like lived at the casino, and her mom was the boss and she had to come back. And then we were just like, okay, let's cut the mom. Because I don't know how to tell a mother daughter story. I know how to tell a father-daughter story. So let's make a father-daughter story about a dysfunctional --   Scott: Well Miranda, you have to be honest, Ed Jager, our head writer and 23 year veteran television writer came in and said, I'm killing the mom. There's no story there. It's a father-daughter story. It's all about the daughter. Going away. Wanting to get the hell outta home, and then having to come back and then finding out that, ah, you know what? I hate this place, but I work here. It works. I have a connection here, and I'm really good at all the jobs I'm doing. It's the Joan Didian. You can't go home but you, maybe you can kind of thing.  Does that make sense?    Miranda: See the thing is like at the beginning of it, it morphed and switched. But I always wanted to make it a space casino. Always, always, always.    Anne: But then, let me backtrack here. So you're telling me the beginnings of the story, but what's the beginnings of the idea, Miranda? Was it something that you said, I wanna create? So not many people in this industry, and I know BOSSes out there, this is the whole enchilada, this is the writing, the artistry, the production, the casting. So did you just one day say, I wanna make a show like (laughs)?    Scott: We pitch ideas back and forth and have written a bunch of stuff, but Miranda always said that whenever they go animated shows, they have an episode at a casino. But I forget how you said it, M, I'm sorry.    Miranda: So like in a lot of sci-fi media, there's always like a one-off episode with a casino. Like in Cowboy Bebop, there's a one-off episode with a space casino. In Star Wars, they go to a space casino in one of the newest Star Wars movies. In like Rick and Morty, they go to a Dave and Busters type thing called Blips and Shits. And I'm just like, why don't you stay there? There's so much potential. You have beings from all over the galaxy. You know, you have people that go to Vegas for conventions. You've got people that go to Vegas in sororities. You have gangsters and mobsters and bachelor parties    Anne: I love it.   Scott: Corporate convention. Always bringing different people. And if you put it out in space, 200 years in the future, the hell knows what --   Anne: Right. So many stories. I mean, I think so many stories can evolve from that. So yeah, there's longevity there. Yeah.    Scott: The other thing we really liked was the found family because Miranda's been, was at my house from age 16 on solo and moved out two years ago. So big on found family. At my house growing up there was always an extra person. Somebody that just got divorced or some teenager had been kicked out of their house. So we're big on found family. A found family is such a lovely story. You can take in so many different directions, and in Miranda's situation, it's right here, found family.   Miranda: But also it's relatable to everyone. Whether you have a good relationship with your parents or not, you always have friends. You know, friends are the family that you choose. I know it's cheesy, but everyone can relate to it. Everyone has a friend that you feel like you're a sibling.    Anne: So then you had this idea that you wanted to do this. The two of you were bouncing ideas and then you said, yes, this sounds amazing. Let's get a writer. Like what happened after that? Just get a writer involved.    Scott: Like I said, we've had multiple ideas, and I think they're very solid ideas, but Miranda is a voracious performer and artist. They like to keep going and going and going. So if we didn't get something with legs on it early, it got set aside and fan art and something else, or voiceover or her life just got in. But this was much more substantial. And it has something that Miranda really likes is retro futurism and 50's --    Miranda: Like mid-century modern atomic age type stuff, Jetsons style.    Anne: Yeah, absolutely.    Scott: They really enjoyed drawing. So it was very inspirational. And then I showed it to my buddy Ed. We had made a little video presentation and it's 1000 degrees different than that, than the thing that we first made. But he goes, this is great. We showed it to Swampy Marsh, the creator of Phineas and Ferb, who's sort of Miranda's mentor and my good friend. And then we all got together with a couple of the writers from Gary Unmarried, that show my buddy Ed wrote about my life that was on CBS, and other writers that I'd worked with on their pilots. And we all got a room and sort of hammered out a thing.    And then the found family thing, or how each of the casino employees used to work at the casino as a crooner or a fighter or something like that. And now the old man me has hired him to work on the, on the thing because they're no longer viable as performers. So we had that, and then Ed just took it off and built this great daughter goes away and comes back to save the found family sort of thing.    Miranda: And it was so well done and well-written. And we pitched on jokes, and I would be like, oh, this character probably wouldn't say that, or this and that. But most of it was Ed really. He just brought this huge heart to it.    Scott: Ed started on Roseanne and worked on Darma and Greg and so many great shows. And I was a joke guy, so you know, we were able to make the jokes crackle, and then you just crank it, crank it down, crank it down until it's tight. And then we hired Swampy Marsh and Bernie Patterson at Surfer Jack to do the staging animatics. So each time they go through, it's single line, really rudimentary, but it gives you a good idea of where everyone's going and what it will look like. I think they did four passes there. They hired Miranda to work on small projects. So Miranda got to work on her own pilot there.    And then I think after we had our thank you party last summer at Tim's, Miranda said, I want it all to be -- I have so many ideas. I want more characters, I want some different backgrounds. This would be funnier if a chop from above. And so Miranda said, I wanna do all of this. So she redid everything. And so every frame you see in the thing is her character's shirt background, a couple backgrounds. We hired her roommate Lauren to do, really wonderful stuff. But almost all of it is Miranda's vision. So there you go. And then laid in all the sound. Tim West at Rebel Alliances donated hours and hours and hours of time. So the sound design is really good. Adam Gutman, Miranda, you can talk about.    Miranda: Yeah. He's like a, he's a Disney composer. He does like all the music for these Star Wars land rides, and Amphibia, and he's worked on Greatest Showman and all these things. And I did a lot of work with him during the lockdown, and he had this like musical project, and I was able to do some animatics for him. And then after that, you know, we kept in contact and then he was like, if you don't let me do the music for Comet Casino, I will be very sad if you don't let me just do it. You know. And I was like --   Scott: Of course, of course.   Miranda: He had all these like great kind of almost hotel lobby tracks from like a Star Wars thing that he worked on. And he's just like, I can tweak this and do this. I'm like, that is so cool. It was crazy.    Anne: So a few things that I wanna point out to the BOSSes out there, because again, I think a lot of people that listen to the VO BOSS podcast they're thinking very much in just voiceover. And again, the scope of this project is so amazing, and I'm hearing a couple of things that just keep coming back to me. Number one is having a great network, right? And having a wonderful team to help put this together. And so I think that networking is such an important thing to have a successful --   Scott: Without, without it, this wouldn't exist.    Anne: Yeah.    Scott: I called in and asked every favor I had to get us at this point.    Anne: Yeah, absolutely.    Scott: Listen, I don't constantly work for free, but I work with friends and things I like mm-hmm and everyone liked all these people that are in this, Maurice Lamar, Billy West, Tara Strong, Luray, Newman, Mindy Sterling — all of them have known Miranda since about three years old because I was asked to be divorced when Miranda was three. So I had her with me, and they all sort of watched her grow up and watched her. So when I said, hey you guys, this is what we're doing, would you be willing? And they all said the same, some version of yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Tara Strong's like, just tell me where to talk. They didn't owe me anything, but I, we asked favors.    Miranda: And one thing that I was so happy about is they've always been, ‘cause we're, you know, a lot of us are at the same agency. So like from being a kid, like not not a kid, but like, you know, in my 20s, early, early teenage years, they were always like, if you make something, if you make something, you know, put me in it. Please. So, you know, and then we finally followed through with an idea, and now it was like, I can do that. I can ask these people and they'll say yes. And that's just a such a great feeling to have, to have such a great support network of all these incredible talented people. I'm really honored.    Scott: And Miranda designed each of the characters for each of those actors. Aunt Maisie was designed for Tara Strong. Gary Anthony Williams is Hendrix. So that's kind of a cool thing too. But you definitely have to be willing to work with -- I mean I've worked on so many pilots that got shot and didn't get to air. I don't get any money from that. I just get the experience providing and supporting. So when I have something, I call those guys and they're like, yeah, let's get together and write this.    Anne: So then yet another thing that I wanna talk about that I think is so important in the development of this is you're still pursuing this, you're still getting funding for this. And so --   Scott: We've just started this phase.    Anne: Right.   Scott: We, it's taken two years to get up to that.   Anne: Yeah. And I think that there's something to be said for the level of commitment obviously, that you have to have for this. I mean in my brain, there's no way that it can't not be successful for you guys. I mean that's the way I feel. I don't know.    Miranda: I honestly think it's successful already. I am just, I am happy to be involved with these incredible people. I'm happy to have this part of my portfolio, and I'm ready to get this, this art in front of people who work in amazing studios. Like all these studio people are going to be seeing my art. So that was like the goal from early on was to get my art in front of studios, and whether it gets made or not, it's just a step in the right direction regardless.    Anne: I love that.    Scott: The beginning premise was to get experience at storyboarding character design and backgrounds. So when we hired Surfer Jack, the idea was that Miranda would sit on Bernie's shoulder and watch him staging storyboard. But then Swampy screwed that up by hiring Miranda before they even started on the pilot to be head of small projects there. So the idea was to get all of her stuff in front of as many people as possible. And because of Ed -- his theatrical representation is APA — they saw that 90-second trailer and called us in for a strategy meeting. So now we're actually represented by APA.    Anne: Love it. That's huge.   Scott: They're not only showbiz adjacent, but they represent people like 50 Cent, Mark Ruffalo, you know, that kinda people. So now, next week the pilot goes out to every animation studio and every streaming service, full support of the head of animation at APA. And they'll bug them to watch it and then hopefully take a meeting. So we already won because all of that stuff is in front of them. And Miranda -- by the way, she's like, in my early twenties — these are your early 20's; you're 28 (?) until next week, you know.   Anne: That's phenomenal. Miranda, I love that you said that it's already a success because it truly is in my eyes, and that's why I feel like it can't be anything but a success already. I've seen it evolve, I've seen it progress, and to me I'm in awe. I think it's amazing. I love the evolution, I love the whole creative process. And I think that it would help BOSSes to maybe wrap their heads around the whole production process of a creative project because I think it will help us to become better actors, become better business people, understanding the networking that you guys are going through and the process to get this produced and and get this out and see if — it's like a big huge audition. Right?    Scott: It is. The other thing is, I told you I don't book animation. So what we did was build a pilot and write ourselves into the pilot. So if I book animation, it'd likely be something that we wrote then Miranda drew. So I think that's a really important thing for anybody getting into it. Don't wait to be asked to the dance. Get out there and start dancing.    Miranda: I also think like the thing about networking that you said like Swampy, a friend of ours, you never know who you are going to meet or who's gonna hire you or who's gonna be your friend and let you work on their project or whatever. ‘Cause like, you know, I hired my roommate to work on some of the backgrounds for Comet. And the networking is so important in this industry, especially with animation, the way that it is right now. ‘Cause animation is very weird and not an incredible industry to get into right now. ‘Cause everything is very up in the air.    Scott: What do you mean, not a great industry? Do you mean it's uncertain?    Miranda: Yeah, it's very uncertain and there's lots of things.    Scott: Voiceover and acting --   Miranda: No, no, but like animation in particular, a lot of animated projects are getting canned. Like they took so much off of HBO Max and Netflix. Like all these animated projects on Netflix.   Scott: That happens in every facet of the entertainment --   Miranda: Right. That's true.   Anne: Ebb and flow.    Scott: It's building your house on mud and hoping for the best.    Miranda: Yeah.    Anne: Yeah.    Miranda: But you know, like you just never know who is gonna hire you. You never know who's gonna be part of your story next. So.   Scott: It's also a good reason to be nice to everybody.    Miranda: Exactly. It costs some money.    Scott: ‘Cause you never know. And that's why I always say, hey people, I know we have, we're represented by an agency, but please if I sent you the pilot and said, hey, send it to creators that you know, it's always great when something comes to the same point from different connections.    Anne: Sure. Absolutely.    Scott: Oh, this is the pilot. Oh this is the guy that Apple, the Apple guy sent me this. So I believe you gotta get as many lines in the water as you can.    Anne: Absolutely. And that networking completely helps that. And I think that it's just something that's so important for us to know as we progress in this industry because this industry's uncertain, voice acting. Oh, oh my gosh. You know?   Scott: Also the other thing is Miranda's not stopping. She's doing Comet art for the pitch deck. Should we get the meeting, I feel confident people are gonna say, hey come in. We like it. We'd like to chat, doing that. But she's also prepping a bunch of stuff to submit for Smiling Friends. She just had a meeting with the storyboard director from Mitchells and the Machines. So you know, you can't just go, well, we've got our pilot. Let's just sit back and let the money roll in.   Miranda: Not over until it's over.    Anne: That's not over.    Miranda: It doesn't start till it starts.    Scott: Ah, I like that one.    Anne: Yeah. Now lemme ask you, Comet Casino, what's next? What's the next step?    Scott: Next week. Well, Miranda's doing art for the pitch deck. Hopefully it goes out to all the stupid buddies, the the titmouses, the --   Miranda: Bento boxes, the tornates, the 20th Century Fox.    Scott: It's gonna go out to every relevant animation company and every streamer, Amazon, Apple, all of those. And then we clear our schedule because we'll be just meeting so many people and having a bidding war on the Comet scene.    Anne: There you go.    Miranda: One would hope. One would hope.    Scott: We still, did you get one of these, Anne?    Anne: I did not get a bag.    Scott: We wanna send you a bag as a gift from the Comet Casino.    Anne: Oh, I love it.    Scott: And we'll put one of the lucky chips in there too.    Anne: Oh, I love that.    Scott: I always keep 'em in my pocket when I audition and I booked three commercials with one ofthese in my pocket.    Anne: Well, thank you. So let me ask you guys, before we go, first of all, how can somebody buy Comic Casino merch? Where do they go?    Miranda: They go to the Comet Casino gift shop, and it's the first thing that comes up on Google. I'll also send you the link so you can put it in the description of whatever podcast.    Anne: The Comet Casino gift shop. And guys, I have a few things. I have a few things from the Comet Casino, but I do not have a bag, so I would love that.    Scott: We'll send you the retro airline bag.    Anne: Thank you.    Scott: Cool thing where you put the cardboard on the bottom, and they put hard glasses in the bottom.    Anne: I love it.    Scott: And then we still have a bunch of shirts. We don't have a lot of stuff. We got hit pretty hard. Oh, we do have some of these handmade pendants that are really, really cool. We only have a -- I think there's only five of those left. They're really, really, really stunning.    Anne: That's very cool.    Scott: Our friend Lori Magna is this artisan in Boston, and she made, she does all the little -- I mean --   Anne: Oh, I love it.    Miranda: Aren't they so cool?   Anne: I love it. So Comet Casino gift shop.    Miranda: Yes, indeed.    Anne: And how can someone follow you, Miranda?    Miranda: Oh, well my Instagram is Parkinart, Parkinart. No spaces, no caps, no nothing. No, no underscores or dots or dits or numbers.    Anne: Perfect.    Scott: You can see me on a Tide commercial    Anne: Ah yes.    Miranda: And his Instagram. His Instagram --   Scott: Hang on, I forgot to say we just got these, the premade --   Miranda: The booklets.   Scott: Big comic books with all the concept art. They're 22 pages, and we just got these. There was a misprint. We got to help with the pitch and they did a misprint --   Anne: Will you be signing?    Scott: We're signing. Miranda will sign. I'll sign it. It doesn't really matter if I sign it, but Miranda's gonna sign it, and then if you get other cast members to sign it, you got something there.    Anne: Very nice.    Scott: That'll be up on here very quickly as well.    Anne: Very nice.    Scott: Anne, thank you so much. So sweet of you to have us on.    Anne: Thank you, guys. It was amazing. So much fun. And I'm looking forward to interviewing you again after it gets picked up and you guys --   Scott: Absolutely. And remember, we're voice first, and we have a very long memory and we remember everybody that was so supportive and helpful. And believe me, we'll be working hard. We don't know who's gonna buy it or what the situation will be. They may buy it outright, tell us to go away, you know what I mean? So we have no idea what that looks like. But if we have any say in it, we're gonna bring people to audition. Everybody gets up to bat, we're gonna write your names as a character, spread the wealth.    Anne: Love it. And your cat wants to say hello. I love it. You know, I have three cats, so I'm all about that. Well fantastic, guys. Thank you so much again. It was amazing. So much fun. Love, love, love what you're doing.    Miranda: Thank you so much for having us on.    Anne: Absolutely.    Scott: You've been so supportive, Anne. You jumped on the bandwagon and gave away merch very early on. This was an expensive proposal, right? Hiring an animation company to do four passes, and then I was sending random money to not take any other work while they worked on this thing. So it's really, really helpful to have such support. The main thing is, it's just really fun to see the cool logo and all the great art on it. It's very nice.    Anne: Absolutely. All right, well BOSSes, here's your chance to use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Besides giving to Comet Casino, you can go to 100Voiceswhocare.org to find out more and commit. And also big shout out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network communicate like BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we will see you next week. Bye!   Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

Originally from the Minneapolis area, Scott Ward studied commercial design and illustration at the University of Minnesota. Scott has worked as an artist and designer in advertising, clothing design, graphic design, theater design, landscape design, interior design, illustration and murals, and has shown his paintings in many galleries around the country. After his introduction to The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, Scott found himself facilitating creativity groups and eventually becoming a community leader with a focus on community development and engagement. He presently serves as the Executive Director of the Fairhaven Association in Bellingham, WA. Scott still finds time to create art. Timestamp 2:22 Growing up as an artistic kid 3:03 Discovering The Artist's Way 4:26 Being a full time artist-entrepreneur 5:52 Getting into the world of community engagement 7:12 Fairhaven's initial organizational challenges and dealing with them 9:12 The importance of giving credit whenever it is due 12:15 Managing time as an active artist plus community leader 13:55 Drawing up the blueprint for Fairhaven's future 14:23 Working on the Space Needle mural project 18:27 Analyzing elements of Scott's artwork 20:04 Daily routines and rituals to power through the day 23:48 When rejection from priesthood brought clarity to life's purpose 25:30 Leaving a legacy and making a difference 27:15 Dealing with challenging decision making processes 29:16 Painting the big picture: keeping the whole community in frame 30:14 Thoughts about the future 32:56 Change is inevitable - taking small steps as a budding artist Social Media Website: scottwardart.com Instagram: instagram.com/scottwardart/ Facebook: facebook.com/scott.ward.18062 Enjoy Fairhaven: enjoyfairhaven.com Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Transcript Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello, Superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius. Oh my gosh, okay, I just want to say: my most favorite person in the world today is on the podcast - Scott Ward. And Scott Ward, if you don't know him, he's an amazing visual artist, who became an accidental Executive Director for the Fair Haven Business Association. It's not really the business association, but the Fair Haven, you know, Association for where he lives. But he is amazing. He's been an actor, he's created clothing. He's done everything possible - interior design, like if you look out in the world, at things, you'll see Scott Ward imprinted on most of them. And he has a beautiful collection of artwork that has really just kept its its beauty over time - I was gonna say it's just so iconic, the stuff that you draw, I have a number of them in my home, I will say - and one of them he gave to us for our wedding, which is just so incredible. So, I thank you, Scott, for being here. Hey, by the way, I didn't mention this, but he also is a musician and singer. Really incredible. Okay. Welcome to the show, Scott. Scott Ward 01:51 Hi, Patti. It's nice to see you. Patti Dobrowolski 01:53 Nice to see you too. And so we haven't seen each other in a long time. Because of COVID - It's kind of a drag. I know but just in another month, I'm going to be standing - hopefully, cross your fingers, you know - side by side with you, that will be so incredible. So, Scott, tell people about you. How did you become an artist? And then how did you end up working as the executive director in Fair Haven? So, get us in the trajectory of how you, from the beginning of time, bring us to the present moment? Scott Ward 02:22 Yeah, it's not the life I ever imagined. You know, I grew up as the artistic kid. That's what I was recognized as, everybody saw me as the artistic kid. And fortunately, I had a couple of really fantastic teachers in Junior High, in high school who globbed on to me and said, "We're going to nurture you as much as we can", and then, you know, after high school kind of pushed me on my way. And then, you know, I went to school and studied fine art, and realized I could never make it as a fine artist; I have to, you know, get jobs that pay me. And so I was doing all that design work that you mentioned: I was doing interior design, and clothing design and graphic design and, um... Patti Dobrowolski 03:00 You had a whole line of cards at one point. Yeah. Scott Ward 03:03 Yeah. I worked for a card company and was just drawing - making little goofy cards. And then in 1994, actually, Patti, you sent me "The Artist's Way" - the book by Julia Cameron. And it had just come out, and at the same time, another friend of mine in Seattle found the book and recommended it, and I thought: I should maybe pay attention to this. And so, you know, over the next few years, I not only studied that book and went through it, but started leading and facilitating groups to get other people to go through that book. And it's a fantastic process. You know, it's set up to be this and discover your creativity, really, it's a whole life purpose kind of process. And so in that I realized, wait a second, I'm being a little hypocritical in that I'm urging all these other people to be artists in the world, and I'm just avoiding it by being a designer, which was not a bad thing - it just wasn't completely who I was supposed to be. And so, you know, I jumped into being a full time artist, like right away. And within six months, I had my first show at this little restaurant in Seattle and sold a few pieces there. And then six months later, I had my very first one person show in this gallery in Pioneer Square in Seattle, where all the- Patti Dobrowolski 04:15 Really, really big deal. Scott Ward 04:17 Really big deal. And you know, the amazing thing that happened there was I sold every single piece in that show. Patti Dobrowolski 04:24 Oh my god. Scott Ward 04:26 Yeah. And so you know, it had to have started as an idea like a full time artist, and then a year later have a sellout show - it was a real fast trajectory. And it was a little overwhelming. I mean, it was stressful because I thought: how am I supposed to live up to that, right? It was like yeah, oh my god, this success is kind of unbelievable. What am I supposed to do with it? And so, I had a little bit of a dip or I thought, you know - can I really do this? But now it's saying that in the next 15 years I was a full time artist and you know, traveled around the country and did shows in a lot of different places and became the representative artist for several different nonprofit organizations and really was having this really fantastic artist's life where I was meeting fascinating, interesting people and going places that I never imagined being and doing a lot of commissioned work. So, creating artwork that never would have crossed my mind. And at the same time, I got to work with you, and this process of your unfolding and the graphic recording and change management stuff, and so learned a lot in that. So, fast forward to being a full time artist: we were living in Seattle, and moved into the Magnolia neighborhood, which is a nice affluent neighborhood that has a little village and my partner, husband owns a little shop there. And I thought, well, you know, I should probably connect with the business community, 'cause sometimes being an artist can be a solitary experience, right? Patti Dobrowolski 05:52 Yes, definitely. Scott Ward 05:52 It's a lot of time at the easel. And if you're at all extroverted, that can become a really challenging life. And so I thought I needed to connect with the community and got engaged with the Chamber of Commerce there. And the Chamber of Commerce, there was kind of a mess. And not kind of a mess, it was really- Patti Dobrowolski 06:12 It was really a mess. Scott Ward 06:13 It was really a mess. And I thought, I think I know a few things that might be able to help them move forward. And so I stepped in and you know, within just a short amount of time became president of that Chamber of Commerce. And I have to say, that really is a lot of the work that I was able to do with you allows me to say to these folks, you know, let's get some clarity in what we're doing here, right? You have a vision, but you're not really living into it. And so let's really revisit that and start to line up with who we're supposed to be in the world. And so I made some changes there, which meant basically a whole turnover in their board. And- Patti Dobrowolski 06:54 Oh, yeah, it was tricky. It was a tricky time. Scott Ward 06:58 It was a tricky time, but I- You know, usually I'm so diplomatic and level-headed, and there were a couple of times where I lost it with them. I'm like: You are like 14 year old kids! I was yelling at them- Patti Dobrowolski 07:12 Oh my gosh. Scott Ward 07:12 You know, it was kind of what needed to happen because they were just stuck in a rut. And so anyway, now we live in Bellingham. And because I had that experience in Seattle, when we came to Bellingham, the little village that we live in is a neighborhood within Bellingham- Patti Dobrowolski 07:29 -called Fairhaven. Scott Ward 07:30 Yeah, Fairhaven. And it's a historic district. It's really sweet. And it's had this community / business association in existence since the mid 70s. So it's been around for a long time. And it was a completely volunteer organization. Patti Dobrowolski 07:45 Yeah. Scott Ward 07:45 And, you know, saying that those volunteers were able to do some really fantastic things over the years, like they really preserved the historic character, they created some wonderful events and some programs. However, there was a lot of dysfunction in what was happening, because the volunteers, they turned to their friends and they'd say: Hey, I want to put a statue in the village green. And their friends would say: Hey, yeah, let's do it. And then they would do it. And then they'd go to the board and say, Hey, we need $45,000- Patti Dobrowolski 08:14 To put that statue up. Scott Ward 08:16 Yeah. And the board would say, okay, great. And they'd kind of rubber stamp it, but there was no accountability, or no- Patti Dobrowolski 08:21 No plan, right. Scott Ward 08:22 No plan and no alignment with everything else that was happening. So every time somebody got a little wind to do something, they would do it. And that caused a lot of rifts in the relationships of the folks that were doing things. You know, it's like this recycled volunteer group that just went through, people would get upset, they get their feelings hurt, you know? And- Patti Dobrowolski 08:44 Yeah, like every volunteer organization, you know, you're like a piece of coal when you go in and you're a diamond when you come out, because- or you're kicked out one or the other before you're a diamond. Scott Ward 08:54 Yeah. And so there was this core group of volunteers that really had been active since the 80s. You know, it's only a handful, like half a dozen of them. And they would, like you said - they'd split people up, they use them, split them out, and became really, really dysfunctional. And so we show up, and of course, they had- Patti Dobrowolski 09:11 And you set up Current and Furbish. Yeah, you have that beautiful little shop there in Fairhaven, and everybody should go see there because it's fantastic. Scott Ward 09:21 Yeah, it's a great little shop and a great little village. And, you know, I thought - maybe I just should be done with this community work because it takes a lot of energy to do that, working with people and all the different personalities - but they came to me and they said: Hey, what do you want to do with us? Because they had written an article about me. So it didn't take long for me to realize that there was a lot of potential here. It wasn't quite as messed up as the Magnolia chamber head. And I saw that there was great potential here. And I also recognize there were some really easy things that could kind of fix what was going on. And that was - you know, one of the things was, in their volunteer organization, they'd never did any kind of acknowledgement - private or public - for their volunteers. There was- Patti Dobrowolski 10:10 Oh my god, are you kidding? Scott Ward 10:11 They didn't send out thank you notes. They didn't really say thank you. They didn't have an end of year celebration and I thought: You know, that one thing would make a huge difference. Patti Dobrowolski 10:24 Yeah, people come back if you appreciate them. That's what it's all about. Scott Ward 10:25 That's exactly what it's about. And then, you know, even just the folks that show up, they want to volunteer for one thing, it's important to acknowledge them, right? It's- Patti Dobrowolski 10:34 Yeah, definitely. Scott Ward 10:35 And even the people that say: Oh, no, no, I don't need anything, do not thank me publicly - find a way to thank them. Patti Dobrowolski 10:42 Yeah, what I love about that is you acknowledge that they have their own way of liking to do that, because everybody's different. So some people, it's mortifying and frightening for them to be acknowledged publicly. So if you can find a way to do it, that gives them the spotlight in their own way. Scott Ward 11:00 That's right. You know, I think it's even as easy as, say, you're in a group, we have monthly meetings, right? And so make sure, like, let's say, John is over there. And John doesn't ever want to be publicly thanked or appreciated, right? Make sure that whoever you're talking to, you say: Hey, I just want you to know that John did most of the work so that John overhears it, right? Then it's this thing where it's private, he gets it, you know, that he's getting it in theory, right? Patti Dobrowolski 11:25 Yeah. Scott Ward 11:25 And that will carry him. Carry him to the next bit of whatever he's doing. Anyway, we come in over - you know, the first few years we were here, I had heard several times, we really have wanted an executive director for a long time. But we just haven't done anything about it. Is this the universe telling me what I'm supposed to be doing? Right? How many times do you have to hear it? Patti Dobrowolski 11:49 Yeah, that's right. That's cool. Scott Ward 11:51 So finally, I just, yeah, went to the board. And I said, okay, it feels like I'm supposed to throw my hat in, help this organization by creating this position. And that's what they did. So that's why I really became the accidental Executive Director. I never intended in doing community work, I thought I was going to be a full time artist. This kind of, you know, exciting life. But I still get to do a little bit of that. Patti Dobrowolski 12:15 Yeah. That's fantastic. So all right. Now you really run Fairhaven, but you're still like a full time artist. Right? So how do you balance all your time of all the things that you're doing, Scott? Cause you have a million things on your plate. How do you organize yourself? Scott Ward 12:32 That's a lot. This kind of counteracts that the artists lifestyle and mindset is that I'm very disciplined. So I know that Thursdays are my studio day, like I have tell everyone - I put on my email, you know, the message, it says, Hey, I'm in the studio today, I'm not going to take your calls. And I'm not going to answer your texts. And so I just really am clear that at least Thursdays, I know, I have a full day of being in the studio. Then, there are other days where I'm a little more flexible about it. But it's- Patti Dobrowolski 13:01 Yeah. Scott Ward 13:01 And then when I'm working for the Association, I'm just really clear like - these are the days I'm available for the Association. But it really is that discipline that makes it happen, otherwise, I don't know how I could do it. It really is a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 13:16 Yeah, I think when you have multiple things going on, it's important to - you have to schedule everything. And you know, people think, Oh, you've got, you know, you've worked for yourself, and so they have lots of free time. And yeah, that free time is filled up with a lot of things that are the behind the scenes part. And you have really finessed that over time, so that you're continuing to show your work, it's really well received, and - you've built Fairhaven into this consistent community engagement, which is awesome. Now you've got like a Draw your Future picture behind you, Scott - did you do that for your organization, for Fairhaven? Scott Ward 13:55 Yeah, for Fairhaven. So three years ago, when I first started the process, we created a strategic plan, because they had had one - we revisited the mission statement, and then created that plan. And so in that three years, we really accomplished everything we had set forth. And so this process now is, what do the next 3 to 5 years look like? So since we've accomplished this, yeah, let's look forward. And you know, this is a fantastic process. People love it. Patti Dobrowolski 14:23 Yeah, it's a little gap analysis, and then you're drawing real time and you're writing words, and you can see, here's this - it's very messy back there. So if you think to yourself: Oh, I can't draw and I can't do that - well, look, it's messy. That's the way we want it to be because you'll call out the things that are most important. And I just want to - for those of you listening, as Scott Ward really has been the behind the scenes studio artist for me for so many years - so these companies that I work with, I often will go in and and I'll do a rough illustration of their vision, but then I bring it home and I have Scott finesse it in the studio. Because I'm not a trained fine artist - you heard him say he was trained - but the stuff is incredible. But I wanted to share this one experience that we had doing a mural for the Seattle Space Needle because I thought this was- So, Scott, tell us a little bit about what happened. When we went in I got a commission to do a mural and the interior for the employees, right. So we ran some focus groups, and then we were going to do this. Now I knew I wasn't a muralist, so I immediately hired Scott to come in - I like wrote him right in the contract, so that I would have someone who actually knew how to do what I said I could do, right? And so, tell everybody what happened. Scott Ward 15:39 Well, we had a lot of things happen. Patti Dobrowolski 15:41 You mean, are you talking about meeting Five Seconds of Summer as they ran past us? (laughs) Scott Ward 15:47 (laughs) It's crazy. But, you know, it was a good process, because we met with all the different department heads and got their input into what this image should be. And it really was - how long was that wall? Patti Dobrowolski 16:01 It was 40 feet. Scott Ward 16:03 Yeah, 40 feet long, and it was just the top half of the wall. So it was this long, skinny- Patti Dobrowolski 16:09 4 feet high and 40 feet long. It was the mural that we did. Scott Ward 16:13 Yeah. And it was kind of basically tell the whole story - the Seattle Center, and the Space Needle. And you know, it was taking all those ideas and putting it into this image, and it really was alike an elaborate map that you would do in, you know, a brainstorming session. It was great. I mean, I loved it. Patti Dobrowolski 16:34 We had a little, a couple of SNAFUs in that though. So okay, so when you do a mural, like you pencil out the whole thing, and just want to say that it didn't totally match the drawing. I was in charge of moving the projector. So that was one of the things that Scott was able to fix. However, we go in to start to- We buy $1,000 worth of these paints, pens, no, paint, what were we- we've got pens- Scott Ward 17:01 We started with the markers. Patti Dobrowolski 17:01 We were going to use Copic markers. So we went in - I had tested it on the paint already, so I knew it would work and we go in on that day to do it. And the first pen stroke that we do, it pulls the paint off onto the pen. So if we spent $1,000 on markers, we were going to spend 5 or 6 thousand dollars to do the whole thing. So I go to Scott: Oh, no, what do we do? And of course, Scott knew the answer - you were like, let's go get some paint pens. Yeah, so we ran to the art store, and then we painted that whole thing together, which was so much fun. Scott Ward 17:38 My favorite was - what was the little misspelling that- Patti Dobrowolski 17:45 It was on the bus. I can't remember what it said, but it was- I missed a letter. Scott Ward 17:51 (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 17:51 I did all the lettering. I had missed a letter in it. But it made sense. We've made sense, what I had written - but it was a funny in-joke, but they made us change it. I can't remember, I wish I had that here so we could show it off. I'll have to look at it, drop in the picture. (laughs) You know, do you prefer to- You did that that large format with me, but you spend many hours and days- you use some repeat images in your illustrations? What did they mean, and why do you use the same images? Tell me a little bit and give us some insight into your artwork? Scott Ward 18:27 Yeah, you know, I think like most of us, we have recurring themes just in our life in general, right. And I think for me, I grew up in Minnesota, in a Catholic German family, and you know, all those things are very restricted, right. And so, are restrictive. And, especially as a gay man it's really restrictive, or as a little gay boy. And so I think I often paint about feeling trapped or wanting greater freedom. So you know, I did a series of images based around cages, birds in cages, and the birds kind of represent the soul, the cages, the situations I find myself in and then there's- I do a lot about home and feeling, wanting to feel a place of home and, you know, connection. Yeah, a lot of that. And I use a lot of green, because green represents growth and life to me and wanting to really grow into fully who I am. So it's a lot about freedom and belonging. Patti Dobrowolski 19:26 Yeah, it's fantastic. And then you had a whole "Red Ball" series, which was really cool - really, so playful and fun. And all of his artwork has been described as very whimsical and it's really beautiful. It's just incredible. So kudos to you for all that sitting at that easel all that time. But now, tell us - I want to know, like what- and I bet you, other people want to know: what's your day look like? Like, give us the run of show for the whole day for you. So we know, like, how do you stay focused and in yourself and how do you, you know, complete your day, what kinds of things at the end? Scott Ward 20:04 You know - like you, I have a little routine that sets me up for the day. So, the first thing I do in the morning is: with my little pot of coffee, I sit down and I write. I journal every morning - I have journaled every morning, for the last, I'm gonna say 35 years. Patti Dobrowolski 20:22 Yeah. Scott Ward 20:23 And in that, there is this great centering that happens - it allows me to kind of get the menial, gritty stuff out and really focus on what's important. And I can't imagine what my life would be without doing that every single day. And in that, it's also this sense of meditation and contemplation that sets me up in a really kind of peaceful and calm way for the day. Then, I do some kind of exercise: I run about four to five days a week, and we live- Patti Dobrowolski 20:54 - About five miles, right? Five to something miles, like, you're crazy. Yeah, he's a crazy runner. I tried running with him, I just want to say: No, no, I can't really- Scott Ward 21:06 I don't really like running. I don't like running. I mean, I like being done running. And a good run is when I don't realize I'm running, right? Like, when the ideation part of me takes place, and I forget I'm running, that's a good run. (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 21:20 (laughs) Oh, my god. Scott Ward 21:22 But it's important, because there is also something really valuable in putting your body into a rhythmic mode that brings up the clarity and ideas. So, problem solving and creative processing all takes place in that- Patti Dobrowolski 21:38 -In movement. Scott Ward 21:39 -uh, physical activity. And that takes place in walking, too, especially when you walk alone - if you're walking with somebody, you have a tendency to have a conversation with them- Patti Dobrowolski 21:48 Yeah. Scott Ward 21:49 -which is something different. And so- Patti Dobrowolski 21:51 -then yourself, talking to yourself in your head - or out loud! Sometimes I caught myself talking out loud - I'm like, don't talk out loud, it's no, not appropriate. Scott Ward 22:01 Yeah. And we live close enough to the village, it's a mile. And so we walk - and that walk also is a really important thing, as far as just staying centered. And so then my day, who knows what the rest of the day is going to be like - with the Fairhaven Association, I sit in a ton of meetings. Like I, you know, it's not unusual for me to have five or six meetings in a day. And, you know, that gets to be a long day. So taking breaks in between, getting outside, moving a little bit is important. Patti Dobrowolski 22:29 Getting coffee. Scott Ward 22:30 Getting coffee, yeah, exactly. Chocolate- Patti Dobrowolski 22:35 All the key things. Scott Ward 22:36 Yeah. And then on my studio days, I really just am so focused on being an artist that it really is basically closing the door to my studio, being in there drawing out new images, or - I do a lot of commission work now, like most of what I do is commission work. And so, really, that process is connecting with the client, and getting their thoughts on what they're looking for. And then, you know, it's all about the creative process on that day, and really is staying focused on being an artist and wearing my painted clothes and not caring what I look like or, you know, being seen. And so - but every day is different. And that's what you get when you are working with, you know, all kinds of different people, and creating all sorts of different programs and events. And, you know, there's something kind of exciting about that, I don't know if I could live a life where every day was the same, right? It just wouldn't be stimulating for me or at all fulfilling - I just think there's something really exciting in the uncertainty of what the day is going to play. Patti Dobrowolski 23:48 Well, and also to - I mean, yours is a life of service. Since I met you, you've always been serving someone - you know, in the community, or you served in your church - you served in all these different ways. And so, say a little bit about why you think service is important, or why is it important to you? Scott Ward 24:08 You know, I recognized early on - well, in my 20s, I wasn't that way - I was pretty self serving, and part of it was this sense of survival - just wanting to know how I was going to make it through this life, because I didn't have clarity and, really, what I was supposed to be doing. And once I realized, oh yes, this is what I'm called to do- Patti Dobrowolski 24:27 You were going to be a priest. I mean, that was gonna be true. That's part of your story, was you were going to be a priest. And then when they found out you were gay, that was it. You had to make a choice. Scott Ward 24:35 Yeah, they rejected me. I mean, they out and out rejected me. And so, that was a huge thing, because for me I felt like, you know, I really am called to the spiritual unfoldment. Patti Dobrowolski 24:49 Yeah. Scott Ward 24:50 To have that kind of thrown back at me was really difficult. I thought: Really? I had this understanding that I was supposed to be making a difference. Not in just my life but in other people's lives. And so, it took me a while to bounce back from that - it was one of the best things that ever happened because it really made me clarify what my role was supposed to be. And being a priest - now, when I look back, I think I would have been miserable. Patti Dobrowolski 25:17 Yeah, so I was gonna say that was a good choice. Definitely. How rigid could that have been, yeah. (laughs) Scott Ward 25:25 There's some things about being a priest that I just found out that like- Patti Dobrowolski 25:30 Yeah. Scott Ward 25:30 And so, you know, just this idea of - I want to leave a legacy. And I think when people become parents, I think that's an easy sense of: Oh, yes, I'm leaving something behind in the world that will make a difference, right? Patti Dobrowolski 25:45 That's right. Scott Ward 25:45 And I don't have kids, I won't ever have kids at this point. And I just thought, what can I leave in the world that will make a difference? Yes, I have my art and my mission with my artists to create inspired and inspiring uplifting images, right? And so, yes, I'll leave that. But I also want to feel like I'm leaving my little corner of the world better than the way I found it. And I think, you know, we say I live in service, but there's a sense of selfishness about living a life of service, right? It is about feeling good about what I'm doing in the world. And, and no, that's not ultimately the goal, it is kind of a byproduct of doing good in the world and lifting others up in the world, right there. There is some satisfaction from that. And that, yeah. And so it really is about the wanting to just leave a positive- Patti Dobrowolski 26:41 Also, you know, you're very good about knowing - like, you really have a sense of 'knowingness' about what you like or dislike - and this I admire in you, because I'm not, sometimes not as clear in some areas around this, so I would default to Scott, when I was choosing certain things: "What do you think of that?" But you have a really clear sense. So when you're in a situation where you feel challenged, and you need to make a decision, what do you do to help yourself understand what the right thing is to do? Scott Ward 27:15 I think it's different every time, right? If it involves somebody else, and there is some, maybe, misalignment in what's supposed to happen - I always remember that the other people or person involved has a whole story that has brought them to their perspective, right? And so to honor that, at the same time, you know, I have a whole story that's brought me to my perspective. And, you know, is there something that can happen that honors both of those stories, right? That's always the place I go to, there's got to be - anything's possible, right? So, is there this solution, is there this way forward that gives a nod to both or all sides of what's happening? So that's one way - if it's just me trying to figure out what's going on, it really is going for an extra run, or spending an extra page writing, or going for a walk - it really is putting myself back out into this place of: Okay, let's kind of ruminate. I also say, you know, before I go to bed, before I fall asleep - I will say: Let's find some clarity about this tonight, right? In the middle of the night, let's bring it into our dreams, let's bring it into our sleep, and let it to kind of figure itself out without my getting in the way. Patti Dobrowolski 28:31 Yeah. Scott Ward 28:32 Right? And so all those things are kind of me trying to get myself out of the way because we can be our own worst enemy. Patti Dobrowolski 28:38 Yeah. You know, we have an opinion about what should happen, we have a - you know, we're always trying to make ourselves look good, our ego gets in there, and then instead of trying to see it from a distant field - like I sometimes will put it on a playing field, because like a chess board, and I can see all the players in the field, and then understand what their position is within that chess game, and then help us move closer to alignment - so that eventually, checkmate, and one of us wins. I mean, not in that sense, but you know, there's a solution that's better than both of us. That's fantastic. Scott Ward 29:16 I actually, uh, as an artist, you know, I see people as different colors and shapes, right? And so, you know, I can say: Oh, yeah, that color and that shape will work next to this one, but this one here, it really needs to be moved over the other side of the painting, right? And so, I kind of see it that way, because I'm so visual, that it just is kind of - for me to create a community as an image. And there's care that has to be done in that, because it's not just saying: Hey, you don't get along with those folks. It's like, really - it's putting into this place that you would work really well over here. You'd be so valuable over here. We need you over here, right? And never, ever, put them- Patti Dobrowolski 29:55 - put them outside of the picture. Scott Ward 29:57 That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 29:57 You're out and you're not in the frame. Scott Ward 29:58 Yeah, that's exactly right. There's - Patti Dobrowolski 29:59 I love that - what a fantastic, but - what a fantastic way of envisioning that. Especially when we talk about community, are you thinking about teams? Are you thinking about whoever it is - family, you know, they all belong in the painting, somewhere. Scott Ward 30:13 That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 30:14 Now, when you think about your future, and you envision your future, what's your big thing that you see happening for you? What's the one thing that you think: Oh, this would be so cool. Like, if this thing happened, you know, that's what I do. Sometimes this thing happened, Scott Ward 30:32 If this thing happened...It's interesting, because I really love my life, like I love my life to be - I actually think it'd be greater if we've been closer to each other. Patti Dobrowolski 30:39 Yeah. Guess we need to change that. (laughs) Scott Ward 30:42 Yeah. But, you know, there's, I think, I don't really have any lofty goals anymore. I think it really is just to continue living, and growing a sense of integrity. Like, really being authentic. I remember growing up, and my parents were young, when they had, like, just basically out of high school. And I think they were still kids, right? When I was even six years old, they were in their mid 20s. And so I remember watching my dad, and he still had his high school friends; and when you hang out with them, he was one person; when he was at home with my mom, he was another person; when he was with us, he was another person; when he was with my grandparents, he was a completely different person, right? And I just watched how he kind of morphed into these different areas. And I realized, even then, that I wanted to be who I was, wherever I was - it didn't matter who I was with, I wanted to be me. And so, I've worked really hard to do that. And I wanted to continue to be able to do that, I still find myself, you know, being maybe a little defensive, or, you know, hold back or whatever. But I just want to be fully me, wherever I am. So I think that was kind of a lofty goal. But it's been an ongoing, lofty goal. Patti Dobrowolski 31:53 Yeah, I think, and it's not always easy. I think, you know, a lot of things push, push everybody, you know, our buttons, and then suddenly we're back in an old frame of mind, where we are seeing things from a very black and white perspective, and we're not embracing and we're not, you know, open to whatever's happening. And I just want to say, you're honestly incredible. I just felt - I as a friend, as an artist, as everything that I've seen that you've done - I just have so much love and admiration for you, that I feel fortunate that I got into your schedule to get you on the podcast, so thank you so much for that. But tell the listeners if you would, like, you know, this is all about making change. Like, we need to learn how to pivot easily and be flexible to it. So what would you say to somebody who's listening, you know, who needs to make a change and isn't quite sure how to do it or wants to become an artist and isn't sure how to step out - what would you say to them to help them bring more of their authenticity to the world? Scott Ward 32:56 First, I want to say that change is inevitable, right? You can sit there and say you don't want to change, fight against it - but think something's going to force you to change. And it's gonna be more painful than if you had made that choice yourself. Patti Dobrowolski 33:07 Yeah. Scott Ward 33:07 And then the other aspect of it is, you have nothing to lose by trying, right? Just try. And so, if you're not going to do anything, you're not going to get anywhere - you can sit and imagine things are gonna happen, but without action, nothing's gonna happen. My suggestion always, for folks that say: Hey, I really do want to be an artist - I say, every day, put yourself out there. And it can be the smallest thing - it's sending an email to a gallery or to an agent and just ask for feedback or, you know, find out what the process is. But everyday, one small thing - it could even be looking up another artist and seeing what their art was like, or talking to an artist and just finding out what they did, or what their day is like. But every single day, just do one small thing. And eventually, you'll start to find things that resonate with who you are, as an artist, and doors will start to open. It may not be what you think it's going to be - in fact, I can guarantee you, it's not ever going to be what you think it's going to be - but you have to be open to that, and trust. Trust is a huge thing. And you and I have talked about this many, many times over the years, because we knew each other when none of what we are now in existence or even what we had dreamed about. And so, you know, we, in the process, both recognize that once you put yourself into that - that journey, that you have to trust you're going to be taken care of. And you and I are living examples that that is true - that once you trust that everything you need is going to be there, it will be there. Patti Dobrowolski 34:43 And that - if it doesn't look the way you think it's going to, just keep going, because something better is on the other side - cause you can't vision from our current reality. So we have no idea what the future is really like. So, if you can get way out there - like I always say, put the most outrageous things on your map, the most incredible things - because believe it or not, those are the things that you're going to be sitting there 10 years later saying, I don't know how that happened, but it did. Look, I put it on that map. Scott Ward 35:15 Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think, because I know you, I give you a lot of credit for the life I have. Because it's been that, that idea that, don't be afraid to, you know, have - what's called the BHAG, right? The Big Hairy Audacious Goal, right? Don't be afraid of that, put it out there. Because if you don't ever put it out there, you're never going to get there, you have to be able to do that there. And, you know, this also reflects or goes back to what it's like to work with people - and a group of people is there are no bad ideas. Right? Every idea has validity, anything is possible. And once you step into that - and the other aspect of is: Yes, set those goals, but you have to take a step - there has to be action behind it. You can't just put the goal out there and then anticipate- Patti Dobrowolski 36:02 -and sit in the chair watching TV at home, you know, it's just not gonna happen. You got to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Scott Ward 36:08 That's right, you can do that drawing and put that goal out there. You can dream about it, but you have to start walking toward it. And you know, like we both have said, you start walking, but then the road is gonna turn left when you thought it was supposed to turn right. Well take go left, because that's going to be a more beautiful road than the right would happen. Patti Dobrowolski 36:29 Yeah, that you ever imagined it'll turn into something you never even imagined. Scott Ward 36:34 Yup. Patti Dobrowolski 36:34 Oh my gosh, God, this was so incredible. I got kind of all moved by just the conversation. It's just so- Scott Ward 36:41 Me too. I love you. Patti Dobrowolski 36:41 I love you too. And it's just so great to have you here. I can't wait to have you back, and we'll have to do some kind of annual thing - and we'll just see where it goes. But for everybody that's listening, I encourage you to follow ScottWardArt.com. You know, go there and see what he's doing. If you're in Fairhaven, go to Current and Furbish, say hi to Cameron, his partner, and also find Scott - because where Scott is, a lot of incredible things happen - and there will always be art and there will always be play and there will always be fun, and probably wine too. I'm guessing- Scott Ward 37:14 Well, I don't know- (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 37:18 There you go. Anyway, I love you so much. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. And so, for everybody that's listening, you know the drill - if you liked the show, you know forward it to your friends or, you know, write Scott an email at scott@ScottWardArt.com - just acknowledge him and then in the way that he acknowledges others, and just go out today and you know what to do, just - if you can - Up Your Creative Genius. Thank you so much, everybody! Patti Dobrowolski 37:51 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius - then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring - so get busy! Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly - Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap!

Scott Cleveland and Ed talk about the major issues facing America and what he, as Senator, would do to make course corrections.  We discuss his status as a registered independent, his stance on spending, COVID-19To learn more about Scott, visit clevelandforsenate.com.Sponsors:Today's episode is brought to you by Zenith Exhibits - Small Business Website Development Specialists.  Visit www.ZenithExhibits.com or call (208) 209-7170 to support Zenith Exhibits and give your business website a boost in the marketplace.Would you like to support conservative talk radio and expose your business to the tens of thousands conservatives all across Idaho?  Visit idahospeaks.com and request more information about becoming a sponsor of the program.

On this edition of the Arsenal Vision Post Match Podcast, Elliot (@yankeegunner) is joined by Scott (Oh_that_crab) to discuss how much time it will take for NUFC to climb the league table, and what to make of our successful 4 game run. Then Dan Potts (@danarsenal87) joins to compare preseason expectations to reality. All that and more on this edition of the Arsenal Vision Post Match Podcast. Signup for our Patreon at patreon.com/arsenalvisionpodcast Get our latest merch at avpodshop.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The situation for Christians in Afghanistan was dire even before the United States began withdrawing its military from the country last month. According to the World Watch List, which ranks countries based on the amount of religious persecution, Afghanistan landed as #2, only behind North Korea. The Center for the Study of Global Christianity wrote that less than 3 percent of people in Afghanistan personally know a Christian. To help give us context about the situation in Afghanistan, Hannah Chao, editor at the SOLA Network, interviewed Scott Oh, pastor at Rooftop Church in Brea, California. Scott used to help operate an orphanage in Afghanistan from 2004-2007, and he still has contacts in the country. We hope this interview will give us new insights into the people of Afghanistan and encourage us to pray for the people there. Watch the video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/ls5qwc1axq0 Read the transcript on our website: https://sola.network/article/my-time-in-afghanistan-interview/ Email us your questions or conversation topics: podcast@sola.network Links: Weekly Newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/sola/tgif Monthly Newsletter: https://mailchi.mp/sola/newsletter Facebook: https://facebook.com/thesolanetwork Instagram: https://instagram.com/thesolanetwork Twitter: https://twitter.com/thesolanetwork YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqsoKbSYBbZZoovA24PhqAg Podcast: http://anchor.fm/solanetwork Website: https://sola.network

About ScottScott is a web developer who has been blogging at https://hanselman.com for over a decade. He works in Open Source on ASP.NET and the Azure Cloud for Microsoft out of his home office in Portland, Oregon. Scott has three podcasts, http://hanselminutes.com for tech talk, http://thisdeveloperslife.com on developers' lives and loves, and http://ratchetandthegeek.com for pop culture and tech media. He's written a number of books and spoken in person to almost a half million developers worldwide.Links: Hanselminutes Podcast: https://www.hanselminutes.com/ Personal website: https://hanselman.com TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Thinkst. This is going to take a minute to explain, so bear with me. I linked against an early version of their tool, canarytokens.org in the very early days of my newsletter, and what it does is relatively simple and straightforward. It winds up embedding credentials, files, that sort of thing in various parts of your environment, wherever you want to; it gives you fake AWS API credentials, for example. And the only thing that these things do is alert you whenever someone attempts to use those things. It's an awesome approach. I've used something similar for years. Check them out. But wait, there's more. They also have an enterprise option that you should be very much aware of canary.tools. You can take a look at this, but what it does is it provides an enterprise approach to drive these things throughout your entire environment. You can get a physical device that hangs out on your network and impersonates whatever you want to. When it gets Nmap scanned, or someone attempts to log into it, or access files on it, you get instant alerts. It's awesome. If you don't do something like this, you're likely to find out that you've gotten breached, the hard way. Take a look at this. It's one of those few things that I look at and say, “Wow, that is an amazing idea. I love it.” That's canarytokens.org and canary.tools. The first one is free. The second one is enterprise-y. Take a look. I'm a big fan of this. More from them in the coming weeks.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by our friends at Lumigo. If you've built anything from serverless, you know that if there's one thing that can be said universally about these applications, it's that it turns every outage into a murder mystery. Lumigo helps make sense of all of the various functions that wind up tying together to build applications. It offers one-click distributed tracing so you can effortlessly find and fix issues in your serverless and microservices environment. You've created more problems for yourself; make one of them go away. To learn more, visit lumigo.io.Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. I'm joined this week by Scott Hanselman of Microsoft. He calls himself a partner program manager—or is called a partner program manager. But that feels like it's barely scraping the surface of who and what he is. Scott, thank you for joining me.Scott: [laugh]. Thank you for the introduction. I think my boss calls me that. It's just one of those HR titles; it doesn't really mean—you know, ‘program manager,' what does it even mean?Corey: I figure it means you do an awful lot of programming. One of the hardest questions is, you start doing different things—and Lord knows you do a lot of them—is that awful question that you wind up getting at cocktail parties of, “So, what is it you do exactly?” How do you answer that?Scott: Yeah, it's almost like, if you spent any time on Clubhouse recently, there was a wonderful comedian named Spunky Brewster on Instagram who had a whole thing where she talked about the introductions at the beginning of a Clubhouse thing, where it's like, you're a multi-hyphenate sandwich artist slash skydiver slash programmers slash whatever. One doesn't want to get too full of one's selves. I would say that I have for the last 30 years been a teacher and a professional enthusiast around computing and getting people excited about computing. And everything that I do, whether it be writing software, shipping software, or building community, hangs off of the fact that I'm an enthusiastic teacher.Corey: You really are. And you're also very hard to pin down. I mean, it's pretty clear to basically the worst half of the internet, that you're clearly a shill. The problem is defining exactly what you're a shill for. You're obviously paid by Microsoft, so clearly you push them well beyond the point when it would make sense to.You have a podcast that has been on for over 800 episodes—which puts this one to shame—called Hanselminutes, and that is, of course, something where you're shilling for your own podcast. You've recently started on TikTok, which I can only assume is what the kids are into these days. You're involved in so many different things and taking so many different positions, that it's very hard to pin down what is the stuff you're passionate about.Scott: I'm going to gently push back and say—Corey: Please do.Scott: That if one were to care to look at it holistically, I am selling enthusiasm around free and open-source software on primarily the Windows platform that I'm excited about, and I am selling empowerment for the next generation of people who want to do computing. Before I went to Microsoft, my blog and my podcast existed, and I was consistent in my, “Hey, have you heard the news?” Message to anyone who would listen. And I taught at both Portland Community College and Oregon Institute of Technology, teaching web services and history of the web and C# and all that kind of stuff. So, I'm one of those people where if you touch on a topic that I'm interested in, I'll be like, “Oh, my goodness, let's”—and I'll just like, you know, knock everything off the desk and I'm going to be like, “Okay, let's build a model, a working model of the solar system here, now. The orange is the sun.”And it's like, suddenly now we're talking about science, like Hank Green or whatever. My family will ask me, “Why isn't the remote control working?” And then I've taken it apart and I'm explaining to them how the infrared LED inside works. And, you know, how can you not be excited about all these things? And that's my whole thing about computing and the power that being able to program computers represents to me.Corey: I would agree with that. I'd say that one thing that is universal about everything you're involved in is the expression I heard that I love and am going to recapture has been, “Sending the elevator back down.”Scott: Oh, yeah. Throwing ladders, ropes, elevators. I am very blessed to have made it out of my neighborhood, and I am very hopeful that anyone who is in a situation that they do not want to be in could potentially use coding, programming, IT, computing as the great equalizer and that I can I could somehow lend my privilege to them to get the things done and solve the problems that they want to solve with computers.Corey: I'm sure that you've been asked ad nauseum about—you work in free and open-source software. You've been an advocate for this, effectively, for your entire career; did no one tell you you work at Microsoft? But that's old Microsoft in many respects. That's something that we've covered with a bunch of different guests previously from Microsoft, and it's honestly a little—it's becoming a bit of a tired trope. It was a really interesting conversation a few years back that, oh, it's clearly all just for show.Well, that is less and less obvious, and more tired and frankly bad take as time progresses. So, I want to go back a bit further into my own personal journey because it turns out that the number one reason to reach out to you for anything is tech support on various things. I don't talk about this often, but I started my career moonlighting as a Windows admin, back in the Windows 2003 server days; and it was an experience, and licensing was a colossal pain, and I finally had enough of it one day, in 2006, switched over to Unix administration on BSD, and got a Mac laptop, and that was really the last time that I used Windows in anger. Now, it's been 15 years since that happened, and I haven't really been tracking the Windows ecosystem. What have I missed?Scott: [laugh]. There's a lot there that you just said. So first, different people have their religions and they're excited about them, and I encourage everyone to be excited about the religion that they're excited about. It's great to be excited about your thing, but it's also really not cool to be a zealot about your thing. So hey, be excited about Windows, be excited about Linux, be excited about Mac.Just don't tell me that I'm going to heck because I didn't share your enthusiasm. Let's just be excited together and we can be friends together. I've worked on Linux at Nike, I've worked on Mac, I've worked on Windows, you know, I've been there before these things existed and I'll be there afterwards.Corey: Exactly. At some point being a zealot for a technology just sort of means you haven't been around the block enough to understand how it's going to break, how it's going to fail, how it's going to evolve, and it doesn't lead to a positive outcome for anyone. It fundamentally becomes a form of gatekeeping more than anything else, and I just don't have the stomach for it.Scott: Yeah. And ultimately, we're just looking for—you know, we got these smart rocks that we taught how to think with lightning, and they're running for loops for us. And maybe they're running them in the cloud, maybe they're running locally. So, I'm not really too worried about it. Windows is my thing of choice, but just, you know, one person's Honda is another person's Toyota; you get excited about the brand that you start out with.So, that's that. Currently, though, Windows has gone, at least in the last maybe 20 years, from one of those things where there's generational pain, and, like, “Microsoft killed my Pappy, and I'll never forgive you.” And it's like, yeah, there was some dumb stuff in the '90s with Internet Explorer, but as a somewhat highly placed middle manager at Microsoft, I've never been in an active mustache-twirling situation where I was behind closed doors and anyone thought anything nefarious. There's only a true, “What's the right thing for the customer? What is the right thing for the people?”My whole thing is to make it so developers can develop more easily on Windows, so I'm very fortunate to be helping some folks in a partnership between the Windows division and the developer division that I work in to make Windows kick butt when it comes to dev. Historically, the Windows terminal, or what's called cmd.exe which is run by a thing called the console host has sucked; it has lagged behind. So, if you drop out to the command line, you've got the, you know, the old, kind of, quote-unquote, “DOS shell” with a cmd processor—it's not really DOS—running in an old console host. And it's been there for gosh, probably early '90s. That sucks.But then you got PowerShell. And again, I want to juxtapose the difference between a console—or a terminal—and a shell. They're different things. There's lots of great third-party terminals in the ecosystem. There's lots of shells to choose from, whether it be PowerShell, PowerShell Core—now PowerShell 7.0—or the cmd, as well as bash, and Cygwin, and zsh, and fish.But the actual thing that paints the text on Windows has historically not been awesome. So, the new open-source Windows terminal has been the big thing. If you're a Machead and you use iTerm2, or Hyper, or things like that, you'll find it very comfortable. It's a tabbed terminal, split-screen, ripping fast, written in, you know, DirectX, C++ et cetera, et cetera, all open-source, and then it lets you do transparency, and background colors, and ligature fonts, and all the things that a great modern terminal would want to do. That is kind of the linchpin of making Windows awesome for developers, then gets even awesomer when you add in the ability that we're now shipping an actual Linux kernel, and I can run N number of Linuxes side-by-side, in multiple panes, all within the terminal.This getting to the point about juxtaposing the difference between a terminal and a console and a shell. So, I've got, on the machine, I'm talking to you on right now, on my third monitor, I've got Windows terminal open with PowerShell on Windows on the left, Ubuntu 18.04 LTS on the right, with the fish shell. And then I've got another Ubuntu 20.04 with bash, a standard bash shell.And I'm going and testing stuff in Docker, and running .NET in Docker, and getting ready to deploy my own podcast website up into Azure. And I'm doing it in a totally organic way. It's not like, “Oh, I'm just running a virtual machine.” No, it's integrated. That's what I think you'd be impressed with.Corey: That right there is the reason that I generally tended to shy away from getting back into the Windows ecosystem for the longest time—and this is not a slam on Windows, by any stretch of the—Scott: No of course. Sure, sure, sure.Corey: —imagination—my belief has always been that you operate within the environment as it's intended to be operated within, and it felt at the time, “Oh, install Cygwin, and get all this other stuff going, and run a VM to do it.” It felt like I was fighting upstream in some respects.Scott: Oh, yeah, that's a great point. Let's talk about that for a second. So—Corey: Let's do it.Scott: So, Cygwin is the GNU utilities that are written in a very nice portable C, but they are written against the Windows kernel. So, the example I like to use is ls, you type ls, you list out your directory, right? So, ls and dir are the same thing for this conversation. Which means that someone has to then call a system call—syscall in Linux, Windows kernel call in Windows—and say, “Hey, would you please enumerate these files, and then give me information about them, and check the metadata?” And that has to call the file system and then it's turtles all the way down.Cygwin isn't Linux. It's the bash and GNU utilities recompiled and compiled against the Windows stuff. So, it's basically putting a bash skin on Windows, but it's not Linux; it's bash. Okay? But WSL is actually Linux, and rather than firing up a big 30 gig Hyper-V, or VirtualBox, or Parallels virtual machine, which is, like, a moment—“I'm firing up the VM; call me in an hour when it comes back up.”—and when the VM comes up, it's, like, a square on your screen and now you're dealing with another thing to manage.The WSL stuff is actually a utility virtual machine built on a lower subsystem, the virtualization platform, and it starts in less than a second. You can start it faster than you can say, one one-thousand. And it goes instantly up, it automatically allocates and deallocates memory so that it's smart about memory, and it's running the actual Linux kernel, so it's not pretending to be Linux. So, if your goal is a Linux environment and you're a Linux developer, the time of Linux on the desktop is happening, in this case, on the Windows desktop. Where you get interesting stuff, and where I think your brain might explode is, imagine you're in the terminal, you're at the Linux file system at the bash prompt, and you type ‘notepad.exe.' What would you expect to happen? You'd expect it to try to find it in a Linux path and fail.Corey: Right. And then you're trying to figure out, am I in this environm—because you generally tend to run these things in the same-looking terminal, but then all the syntax changes as soon as you go back into the Windows native environment, you're having to deal with line-ending issues on a constant basis, and you just—Scott: Oh, yeah. All that stuff, where.Corey: And as soon as you ask for help because back in those days, I was looking primarily into using freenode as my primary source of support because I network staff on the network for the better part of a decade, and the answer is, “I'm having some trouble with Linux,” and the response is, “Oh, you're doing this within a Windows environment? Get a real computer, kid.” Because it's still IRC, and being condescending and rude to anyone who makes different choices than you do is apparently the way that was done back then.Scott: Well, today in 2020 because we don't want to just have light integration with Windows—and by light integration, like, I don't know if you remember firing up a virtual machine on Windows and then, like, copy-pasting a file, and we were all going like, “Oh, my God, that's amazing.” I drug the file in and then it did a little bit of magic and then moved the file from Windows into Linux. What we want is to blur the lines between the two so you can move comfortably. When you type explorer.exe or notepad.txt in Linux on Windows, Linux says no, and then Windows gets the chance, fires it up, and can access the Linux file system.And since Notepad now understands line endings, just happily, you can open up your .profile, your bash_profile, your csh file in Notepad, or—here's where it gets interesting—Visual Studio Code, and comfortably run your Windows apps, talking to your Linux file system, or in the—coming soon, and we've blogged about this and announced it at Build last year, run Linux GUI apps seamlessly so that I could have two browsers up, two Chromes, one Windows and one Linux, side-by-side, which is going to make web testing even that much easier. And I'm moving seamlessly between the two. Even cooler, I can type explorer.exe and then pass in dot, which represents the current folder, and if the current folder is the Linux file system, we seamlessly have a Plan 9 server—basically a file server that lets you access your Linux file system—from—Corey: Is it actually running Plan 9?Scott: It is a Plan 9 server.Corey: That is amazing. I'm sorry, that is a blast from the past.Scott: I'm glad. And we can run N number of Linuxes; this isn't just one Linux. I've got Kali Linux, two different Ubuntus, and I could tar up the user mode files on mine, zip them up, give them to you, and you could go and type ‘wsl–import,' and then have my Linux file system. Which means that we could make a custom Screaming in the Cloud distro, put it in the Windows Store, put it up on GitHub, build our own, and then the company could standardize on our Linux distro and run it on Windows.Corey: That is almost as terrible an idea as using a DNS service as a database.Scott: [laugh].Corey: I love it. I'm totally there for it.Scott: It's really nice because it's extremely—the point is, it has to have no friction, right? So, if you think about it this way, I just moved—I blogged about this; if people want to go and learn about it—I just moved my blog of 20 years off of a Windows Server 2008 server running under someone's desk at a host, into Azure. This is a multi-month-long migration. My blog, my main site, kind of the whole Hanselman ecosystem moved up in Azure. So, I had a couple things to deal with.Am I going to go from Windows to Linux? Am I going to go from a physical machine to a virtual machine? Am I going to go from a physical machine to a virtual machine to a Platform as a Service? And when I do that, well, how is that going to change the way that I write software? I was opening it in Visual Studio, pressing F5, and running it in IIS—the Internet Information Server for Windows—for the last 15, 20 years.How do I change that experience? Well, I like Visual Studio; I like pressing F5; I like interactive debugging sessions. But I also like saving money running Linux in the cloud, so how can I have the best of all those worlds? Because I wrote the thing in .NET, I moved into .NET 5, which runs everywhere, put together a Docker file, got full support for that in Visual Studio, moved it over into WSL so I can test it on both Windows and Linux.I can go into my folder on my WSL, my Windows subsystem for Linux, type code dot, open up Visual Studio Code. Visual Studio Code splits in half. The Windows client of Visual Studio Code runs on Windows; the server, the Visual Studio Code server, runs in WSL providing the bridge between the two worlds, and I can press F5 and have interactive debugging and now I'm a Linux developer even though I've never left Windows. Then I can right-click publish in Visual Studio to GitHub Actions, which will then throw it into the cloud, and I moved everything over into Azure, saved 30%, and everything's awesome. I'm still a Windows developer using Visual Studio. So, it's pretty much I don't know, non-denominational; kind of mixing the streams here.Corey: It is. And let me take it a step further. When I'm on the road, the only computer I bring with me these days—well, in the before times, let's be very realistic. Now, when ‘I'm on the road,' that means going to the kitchen for a snack—the only computer I bring with me is my iPad Pro, which means that everything I do has a distinct application. For when I want to get into my development environment, historically it was, use some terminal app—I'm a fan of Blink, but everyone has their own; don't email me.And everything else I tended to use looked an awful lot like a web app. If there wasn't a dedicated iOS app, it was certainly available via a web browser. Which leads me to the suspicion that we're almost approaching a post-operating-system world where the future development operating system begins to look an awful lot—and people are going to yell at me for this—Visual Studio Code.Scott: Mmm.Corey: It supports a bunch of remote activities now that GitHub Codespaces is available—at least to my account; I don't know if it's generally available yet—but I've been using it; I love it; everything it winds up doing is hosted remotely in Azure; I don't have to think about managing the infrastructure; it's just another tab within GitHub, and it works. My big problem is that I'm trying to shake, effectively, 20 years of muscle memory of wrestling with Vim, and it takes a little bit of a leap in order to become comfortable with something that's a more visually-oriented IDE.Scott: Why don't you use the VsVim, Jared Parsons Vim plugin for Visual Studio?Corey: I've never yet found a plugin that I like for something else to make it behave like Vim. Vimperator is a browser extension, all of it just tends to be unfortunate and annoying in different ways. For whatever reason, the way that I'm configured or built, it doesn't work for me in the same way. And it goes back to our previous conversation about using the native offering as it comes, rather than trying to make it look like something else.Scott: Okay. I would just offer to you and for other Vim people who might be listening, that VS Code Vim does have 2.5 million installs, over 2 million people happily using that. And they are—Corey: Come to find it only has 200,000 actual users; there was an installation bug and one person just kept trying over and over and over. I kid, I kid.Scott: No, seriously though, these are actual Vim-heads and Jared Parsons is a developer at Microsoft who is like, out of his cold dead hands you'll pull his Vim. So, there's solutions; whether you're Vim or Emacs, you know, we welcome all comers. But to your point, the Visual Studio, once it got split in half, where the language services, those services that provide context to Python, Ruby, C# C++ et cetera, once those extensions can be remoted, they can run on Windows, they can run on Linux, they can run on the cloud. So, VS Code being split in half as a client-server application has really made it shine. And for me, that means that I don't notice a difference, whether I'm running VS Code on Windows or running VS Code to a remote Linux install, or even using SSH and coding on Windows remotely to a Raspberry Pi.Corey: I love the idea. I've seen people do this, in some respects, back in the days of Code Server being a project on GitHub, and it took a fair bit of wrangling to get that to work in a way that wasn't scarily insecure and reliable. But once it was up and running, you could effectively plug a Raspberry Pi in underneath your iPad and effectively have a portable computer on the go that did local development. I'm looking at this and realizing the future doesn't look at all like what I thought it was going to, and it's really still kind of neat.Scott: Mm-hm.Corey: There's a lot of value in being able to make things like this more accessible, and the reason I'm excited about a lot of this, too, is that aligned with a generous free tier opportunity, which I don't know final pricing for things like GitHub Codespaces, suddenly the only real requirement is something that can render a browser and connect to the internet for an awful lot of folks to get started. It doesn't require a fancy local overpowered development machine the way a lot of things used to. And yes, I know; there are certain kinds of development that are changing in that respect, but it still feels to me like it has never been easier to get started with all of this technology than ever before, with a counterargument that there's so many different directions to go in. “Oh, I want to get started using Visual Studio Code or learning to write JavaScript. Great. How do I do this? Let me find a tutorial.” And you find 20 million tutorials, and then you're frozen with indecision. How do you get past that?Scott: Yeah, there is and always will be, unfortunately, a certain amount of analysis paralysis that occurs. I started a TikTok recently to try to help people to get involved in coding, and the number one question I get—and I mean, thousands and thousands of them—are like, “Where do I start?” Because everyone seems to think that if they pick the wrong language, that will be a huge mistake. And I can't think of a wrong language, you know? Like, what human language should I learn?You know, English, Chinese, Arabic, Japanese. Pick one and then learn another one if you can. Learn a couple. But I don't think there's a wrong language to learn because the basics of computer science are the basics of computer science. I think what we need to do is remind people that computers are computers no matter whether they're an Android phone or a Windows laptop, and that any forward motion at all is a good thing. I think a lot of people have analysis paralysis, and they're just afraid to pick stuff.Corey: I agree with what you're saying, but I'm also going to push back gently on what you're saying, as well. If someone who is new to the field was asking me what language to learn, I would be hard-pressed to recommend a language that was not JavaScript. I want to be clear, I do not understand or know JavaScript at all, but it's clear from what I'm seeing, that is, in many ways, the language of the future. It is how frontend is being interacted with; there are projects from every cloud provider that wind up managing infrastructure via JavaScript primitives. There are so many on-ramps for this, and the user experience for new folks is phenomenal compared to any language that I've worked with in my career. Would you agree with that or disagree with that assessment?Scott: So, I've written blog posts on this topic, and my answer is a little more ‘it depends.' I say that people should always learn JavaScript and one other language, preferably a systems language, which also may be JavaScript. But rather than thinking about things language-first, we think about things solutions-first. If someone says, “I want to do a lot of data science,” you don't learn JavaScript. If someone says, “I want to go and write an Android app,” yeah, you could do that in JavaScript, but JavaScript is not the answer to all questions.Just as the English language, while it may be the lingua franca, no pun intended, it is not the only language one should pick. I usually say, “Well, what do you want to do?” “Well, I want to write a video game for the Xbox.” Okay, well, you're probably not going to do that in JavaScript. “Oh, I want to do data science. I want to write an iPhone app.” JavaScript is the language you should learn if you're going to be doing things on the web, yes, but if you're going to be writing the backend for WhatsApp, then you're not going to do that JavaScript.Corey: This episode is sponsored by ExtraHop. ExtraHop provides threat detection and response for the Enterprise (not the starship). On-prem security doesn't translate well to cloud or multi-cloud environments, and that's not even counting IoT. ExtraHop automatically discovers everything inside the perimeter, including your cloud workloads and IoT devices, detects these threats up to 35 percent faster, and helps you act immediately. Ask for a free trial of detection and response for AWS today at extrahop.com/trial.Corey: Yeah, I think you're right. It comes down to what is the problem you're trying to solve for? Taking the analogy back to human languages, well, what is your goal? Is it just to say that you've learned a language and to understand, get a glimpse at another culture through its language? Yeah, there is no wrong answer. If it's that you want to go live in France one day and participate in French business discussions, I have a recommendation for you, and it's probably not Sanskrit.At some point, you have to align with what people want to do and the direction they're going in with the language selection. What I like about JavaScript is, frankly, it's incredible versatility as far as problems to which it can be applied. And without it, I think you're going to struggle as you enter the space. My first language was crappy Perl—slash bash because everyone does bash when you're a systems administrator—and then it has later evolved now to crappy Python as my language of choice. But I'm not going to be able to effectively do any frontend work in Python, nor would I attempt to do so.My way of handling frontend work now is to have the good sense to pay a professional. But if you're getting started today and you're not sure what you want to do in your career, my opinion has always been that if you think you know what you want to do in your career, there's a great chance you're going to be wrong, but pursuing the thing that you think you want to do will open other opportunities and doors, and present things to you that will catch your interest in a way you might not be able to anticipate. So, especially early on in careers, I like biasing for things that give increased options, that boost my optionality as far as what I'm going to be able to do.Scott: Okay. I think that's fair. I think that no one ever got fired for picking IBM; [laugh] no one ever jeopardized their career by choosing JavaScript. I do think it's a little more nuanced, as I mentioned.Corey: It absolutely is. I am absolutely willing to have a disagreement with you on that front. I think the thing that we're aligned on is that whatever you pick, make sure it's something you're interested in. Don't do it just for—like, “Well, I'm told I can make a lot of money doing X.” That feels like it's the worst reason to do things, in isolation.Scott: That's a tough one. I used to think that, too, but I am thinking that it's important to note and recognize that it is a valid reason to get into tech, not for the passion because for no other reason that I want to make a lot of money.Corey: Absolutely. I could not agree with you more, and that is… something I've gotten wrong in the past.Scott: Yeah. And I have been a fan of saying, you know, “Be passionate and work on these things on the side,” and all that kind of stuff. But all of those things involve a lot of assumptions and a lot of privileges that, you know, people have: that you have spare time and that you have a place to work on these things. I work on stuff on the side because it feeds my spirit. If you work on woodworking, or drones, or gardening on the side, you know, not everything you work on the side has to be steeped in hustle culture and having a startup, or something that you're doing on the side.Corey: Absolutely. If you're looking at a position of wanting to get into technology because it leads to a better financial outcome for you and that is what motivates you, you're not wrong.Scott: Exactly.Corey: The idea that, “Oh, you have to love it or you'll never succeed.” I think that some of the worst advice we ever wind up giving folks early in their career—particularly young people—is, ‘follow your passion.' That can be incredibly destructive advice in some contexts, depending upon what it is you want to do and what you want your life to look like.Scott: Yeah, exactly.Corey: One of the things that I've always been appreciative of from afar with Microsoft has been there's an entire developer ecosystem, and historically, it's focused on languages I can barely understand: ASP.NET, the C# is deep in that space, F#, I think, is now a thing as well. There's an entire ecosystem around this with Visual Studio the original, not Visual Studio Code—turns out naming is one of those things that no tech companies seems to get right—but it feels almost like there's an entire ecosystem there for those of us who spent significant time—and I'm speaking for myself here, not you—in the open-source community talking about things like Perl and whatnot, I never got much exposure to stuff like that. I would also classify Enterprise Java as being in that direction as well. Is there a bifurcation there that I'm not seeing, or was I just never talking to the right people? All the above? Maybe I was just—maybe I had blinders on; didn't realize it.Scott: There was a time when the Microsoft developer ecosystem meant write things for Windows, do things on Windows, use languages that Microsoft made and created. And now, with the rise of the cloud and with the rise of Software as a Service, Microsoft is a much simpler company, which is a funny thing to say for such a complicated company. Microsoft would love to run your for loop in the cloud for money. We don't care what language you use; we want you to use the language that makes you happy. Somewhere around five to seven years ago, in the developer division, we started optimizing for developer happiness.And that's why you can write Ruby, and Perl, and Python, and C, and C++ and C# and all those different things. Even C# now, and .NET, is owned by the .NET Foundation and not by Microsoft. Microsoft, of course, is one of the primary users, but we've got a lot of—Samsung is a huge contributor, Google is a huge contributor, Amazon Web Services is a big contributor to .NET.So, Microsoft's own zealotry towards—and bias towards our own languages has, kind of, gone away because Office is on iPhone, right? Like, anywhere that you are, we'll go there. So, we're really going where the customer is rather than trying to funnel the customer into where we want them to be, which is a really an inverted way of doing things over the way it was done 20, 30 years ago. In my opinion.Corey: This gets back to the idea of the Microsoft cultural transformation. It hasn't just been an internal transform; it's been something that is involved with how it's engaging with its customers, how it's engaging with the community, how it's becoming available in different ways to different folks. It's hard to tell where a lot of these things start and where a lot of these things stop. I don't pretend to be a Microsoft “fanboy,” quote-unquote, but I believe it is impossible to look at what has happened, especially in the world of cloud, and not at the very least respect what Microsoft has been able to achieve.Scott: Well, I came here to open source stuff. I'm surely not responsible for the transformation, I'm just a cog in the machine, but I can speak for the things that I own, like .NET and Visual Studio Community, and I think one of the things that we have gotten right is we are trying to create zero-distance products. You could be using Visual Studio Code, find a bug, suggest a feature, have a conversation in public with the PMs and devs that own the thing, get an insider's build a few days later, and see that promoted to production within a week or two. There is zero distance between you the consumer and the creator of the thing.And if you wanted to even fix the bug yourself, submit a pull request, and see that go into production, you could do that as well. You know, some of our best C# compiler folks are not working for Microsoft and they are giving improvements, they are making the product better. So, zero-distance in many ways, if you look at the other products at Microsoft, like PowerToys is a great thing, which is [unintelligible 00:32:06] an incubator for Windows features. We're adding stuff to the PowerToys open-source project like launchers, and a thing called FancyZones that is a window tiling manager, you know, features that prosumers and enthusiasts always wished Windows could have, they can now participate in, thereby creating a zero-distance product in Windows itself.Corey: And I want to point out as well that you are still Microsoft. You, the collective you. I suppose you personally; that is where your email address ends. But you're still Microsoft. This is still languages, and tools, and SDKs, and frameworks used by the largest companies in the world. This zero-distance approach is being done on things that service banks, who are famously not the earliest adopters of some code that I wrote last night; it's probably fine.Scott: Do you know what my job was before I came here?Corey: Tell me.Scott: I was the chief architect at a finance company that created software for banks. I was responsible for a quarter of the retail online banking systems in North America, built on .NET and open-source software. [laugh].Corey: So, you've lived that world. You've been that customer.Scott: Trying to convince a bank that open-source was a good idea in the early 2000s was non-trivial. You know, sitting around in 2003, 2004, talking about Agile, and you know, continuous integration, and build servers, and then going and saying, “Hey, you should use the software,” trying to deal with lawyers and explain to them the difference between the MIT, Apache, and GPL licenses and what it means to their bank was definitely a challenge. And working through those issues, it has been challenging. But open-source software now pervades. Just go and look at the license.txt in the Visual Studio Program Files folder to see all of the open-source software that is consumed by Visual Studio.Corey: One last topic that I want to get to before we call it a show is that you've spent a significant portion of your career, at least recently, focusing on, more or less, where the next generation of engineers, developers, et cetera, come from. And to that end, you've also started recently with TikTok, the social media platform. Are those two things related, first off, or am I making a giant pile of unwarranted assumption?Scott: [laugh]. I think that is a fair assumption. So, what's going on is I want to make sure that as I fade away and I leave the software industry in the next, you know, N number of years, that I'm setting up as many people as possible for success. That's where my career started when I was a professor, and that's hopefully where my career will end when I am a professor again. Hopefully, my retirement gig will have me teaching at some university somewhere.And in doing that, I want to find the next million developers, right? Where are they, the next 10 million developers? They're probably not on Twitter. They might be a lot of different places: they might be on Discord, they might be on Reddit, they might be on forums that I haven't found yet. But I have found, on TikTok, a very creative and for the most part kind and inclusive community.And both myself and also recently, the Visual Studio Code team have been hanging out there, and sharing our creativity, and having really interesting conversations about how you the listener can if not be a programmer, be a person that knows better the tools that are available to you to solve problems.Corey: So, I absolutely appreciate and enjoy the direction that you're going in, but again, people invite you to things and then spring technical support questions on you. Can you explain what TikTok is? I'm still trying to wrap my head around it because I turned around and discovered I was middle-aged one day.Scott: Sure. Well, I mean, I am an old man on TikTok, to be clear. TikTok, like Twitter, revels in its constraints. If you recall, there was a big controversy when Twitter went from 140 characters to 280 because people thought it was just letting the constraint that we were so excited about—which was artificial because it was the length of a standard message service text—Corey: I'm one of those people who bitterly protested it. I was completely wrong.Scott: Right? But the idea that something is constrained, that TikTok is either 15 seconds, or less than 60, it's similar to Vine in that it is a tiny video; what can I do in one minute? Additionally, before they allowed uploading of videos, everything was constrained within the TikTok editor, so people would do amazing and intricate 30 and 40 shot transitions within a 60 second period of time. But one of the things I find most unique about TikTok is you can reply to a text comment with a video. So, I make a video—maybe I do 60 seconds on how to be a software engineer—somebody replies in text, I can then reply to that text with a video, and then a TikTok creator can do what's called a stitch and reply to my video with a video.So, I could take 15 seconds of yours, a comment that you made, and say, “Oh, this is a great comment. Here's my thoughts on that comment.” Or we could even do a duet where you record a video and then I record one, side-by-side. And we either simulate that we're actually having a conversation, or I react to your video as well. Once you start teaching TikTok about yourself by liking things, you curate a very positive place for yourself.You might get on TikTok, not logged in, and it's dancing, and you might find some inappropriate things that you don't necessarily want to see, or you're not interested in, but one of the things that I've noticed as I talk about my home network and coding is people will say, “Oh, I finally found adjective TikTok; I finally found coding TikTok I finally found IT TikTok. Oh, I'm going to comment on your post because I want to stay on networking TikTok.” And then your feed isn't just a feed of the people that you follow, but it's a feed of all the things that TikTok thinks you're excited about. So, I am on this wonderful TikTok of linguistics and languages, and I'm learning about cultures, and I'm on indigenous TikTok, and I'm on networking TikTok. And the mix of creativity and the constraint of just 60 seconds has been, really, a joy. And I've only been there for about a month and I've blessed to have 80,000 people hanging out with me there.Corey: It sounds like you're quite the fan of the platform, which alone in isolation, is enough to get me to look at it in more depth.Scott: I am a fan of creativity. I would also say though, it's very addictive once you find your people. I've had to put screen time limits on my own phone to keep me from burning time there.Corey: That is all of tempting, provocative, and disturbing. I—Scott: You should hang out with me on YouTube, then. I just got my 100,000 YouTube Silver Play Button in the mail. That's where I spend my time doing my long-form. I just did, actually, 17 minutes on WSL and how to use Linux. That might be a good starter for you.Corey: It very well might. So, if people want to learn more about what you're up to, and how you think about the wide variety of things you're interested in, where can they find you?Scott: They should start at my last name dot com: Hanselman.com. They used to be able to Google for Scott, and I was in an epic battle with Scott brand toilet paper tissue, and then they trademarked the name Scott and now I'm somewhere in the distant second or third page. It was a tragedy. But as an early comer—Corey: Oh, my condolences.Scott: Yeah, oh my God. As an early comer to the internet, it was me and Scott Fly Rods on the first page, for many, many years. And then—Corey: If it helps, you and Scott Fly Rods are both on page two.Scott: Oh. Well, the tyranny of the Scott toilet paper conspiracy against me has been problematic.Corey: Exactly.Scott: [laugh].Corey: Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really do appreciate it.Scott: It's my pleasure.Corey: Scott Hanselman, partner program manager at Microsoft and so much more. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn. This is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a crappy comment that starts with a comment that gatekeeps a programming language so we know to ignore it.Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

The online buying experience is always evolving, so it’s table stakes for companies to be on their toes and ready to adjust when the market tells them to. Especially when the company we are chatting about today was founded in 1948! But being prepared to adjust and actually making it happen are two different things. At DICK’S Sporting Goods, its customers, who are referred to as “athletes” are truly running the show, and Scott Casciato, who serves as the VP of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S, is the man who takes their needs and delivers a seamless experience to them via DICK’S ecommerce platform and throughout their 700 retail locations. And with their ecommerce sales increasing by 100% in 2020, Scott and his team have had to rethink many things like: how to scale up operations during peak seasons, why testing every iteration on the website is key, how to perfect the buy online pick up in-store experience, and determine how to take their athlete's feedback and transform it into a funnel for change. This episode brought back a lot of nostalgia for me, thinking about the days of wandering the aisles of Dick’s in my high school days looking for a new lacrosse stick or soccer shoes. So it was fun to hear about how much has changed, and  what investments the company has been making lately in creating the best customer experience possible for its athletes. Also, tune in to the end to hear Scott discuss the importance of great vendor relationships, how to future proof logistics, and the new in-store experiences that Dick’s is betting big on. Enjoy! Main Takeaways:The House Don’t Fall When the Bones are Good: Having a strong foundation is the most impactful thing a company can do to prepare for surges in traffic that might come during peak seasons or after highly-successful campaigns. You have to do the work, go through the load tests and constantly be improving the technology stack because there are no shortcuts when you are creating a scalable platform that can withstand anything you throw at it. With last year being a perfect case study to reflect on, dive into the data and pivot if needed so you’re ready for the surge!Bet On It … Then Test It: Building out an online experience that works requires constant testing. You can plan for outcomes and bet on how you think people will react, but until you test it, you can’t ever be certain. As Scott mentioned, following the path the data reveals can be surprising and sometimes opposite of what your intuition is telling you.Experiences For The Future: The shopping experience is going to continue to change, and the strongest companies are planning for the future by paying attention to trends and then creating experiences — both in-person and online — that will drive engagement with consumers and build trust and confidence in the company’s authority in the space. By investing early into an experience or a specific market, you set yourself up as the expert in that specialized vertical and become the retailer of choice for consumers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, this is your host, Stephanie Postles, ceo@mission.org. Today on the show we have Scott Casciato, vice president of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S Sporting Goods. Scott, welcome.Scott:Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you. So I have this deep love of DICK'S Sporting Goods because there was a location in my hometown, eastern shore of Maryland, which I feel no one even knows where that is on a map. But back in high school, I would go almost every week and just kind of peruse through the aisles and look for new lacrosse sticks and shoes. And I didn't really have much money, but I remember just loving the experience and being there probably for three hours with friends, just kind of hanging out. So I was so excited when I saw you guys on the lineup where I was, "Yes, something I know well."Scott:Was that your sport growing up, lacrosse?Stephanie:Lacrosse and soccer.Scott:Nice, nice. That's great.Stephanie:Deep love there. So I'd love to hear a bit about how you got into this industry, because you had a funny quote where you said, "I don't know how I really ended up here," and I'd love to start there, how did you become the vice-president of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S Sporting Goods?Scott:It goes back... I spent the early part of my career in software, supply chain software, and kind of even on the sales side, then moved into the operational side and then got into management consulting and did a tour duty in the management consulting ranks. And I got introduced to the founder and co-founder of a company called ModCloth that I was with previously. And they were looking for somebody to run fulfillment and customer service. And I just said, I don't know anything about, I mean, I know supply chain, but I don't really know anything about direct consumer fulfillment at the time. And the founder of that business was, "Yeah, I know, but you're smart enough to figure it out." Right?Scott:So and I have a bent for really high growth, high speed businesses, and it just kind of the way I grew up in my career and that was a really great opportunity. So I did that and I spent five years there scaling that business really significantly, hyper growth phase and it was awesome. I learned a ton about fulfillment and service. And then about five years in, I had this great opportunity to come to DICK'S. And the thing that was really interesting to me is, the question was how can we build a great service organization for DICK'S Sporting Goods? I'm like, "Wow, if I could do it at a much smaller company, what would it be like to come to such a great brand and try to do it here?" And and we did, right?Scott:And so we spent a lot of time building that for the first four years of my time at DICK'S and then had an opportunity to take fulfillment on. So it's interesting that I have some of the aspects of that, that previous role that I had only, a scale that is much larger and just been very, very fortunate to be with such a great business. And it's been awesome to work with the team at DICK'S.Stephanie:Okay. So you are leaving ModCloth, I mean, that's like strictly ecommerce and then you're coming to this, I would say very omni-channel company. I mean, you have over 700 locations across the US, quickly moving to digital, at least over the past couple of years. Tell me a bit about what that transition was like?Scott:I mean, and at the same time we were really building... We were just starting our transformation to building our own technology. So it was a massive... It was basically rebuilding what we had already had from an ecommerce business perspective. And I think fundamentally a lot of the things that I came in and the tools that I had were relevant, right? How you scale a business. I mean, that stuff is somewhat the same. I think one of the biggest changes was or a few of them were one, just having more teammates that knew a lot of stuff that could really help and drive the initiatives and the progress forward, whereas in a much smaller company, right? It's you're wearing so many different hats and you're doing so many different things here.Scott:It was a shock to me to say, oh, there's somebody that can help with reporting or data analytics and help us with these answers. So that was awesome. And then I just think we were all learning, right? So we were learning what we needed. We were learning what we wanted to be in customer service, we were learning what we wanted to have in terms of digital capabilities. We were learning how to run that business as we were deploying new technology, right? So how do you do pricing online appropriately? I remember a lot of conversation. How do you display things? What's the right... How do you check? What's the right checkout flow? And then we had, as all businesses do, you have to make a lot of trade-offs because it may not be the most elegant thing right at the beginning, but we just got to get it up and running, right?Scott:And so having those conversations can be tough, right? Everybody, and especially our business, we just have this DNA where we just relentlessly improve, right? And so it's tough to launch something and know that it's not the perfect solution, right, and then making sure that you go back and you iterate and you keep going, right? We just did that for a long time. But it was a lot of fun and it's really tiring, but it was a lot of fun.Stephanie:So that's amazing. What was one of the maybe projects or things that you felt most strongly about that you got maybe the most pushback on that people are like, nope, that's not a good idea?Scott:I would say, well, we had a lot of conversation about how we were going to set up, for example, in my world, we were going to set up customer service. And we continue to evolve that. I think it wasn't that people were saying it's not how we want to do it, I think it was really more what I was saying about, we want to own more of that customer service experience, right? So we had always been outsourced. And as we moved, as we did the transition, and our previous outsourcer did a great job. And as we move to the next wave of that evolution, we decided we really need to keep an outsourced view in some form or fashion of customer service, but we really wanted to try to start to build our own, right, because we were, "Wonder what we could do on our own?"Scott:So this conversation about, [inaudible] how do you scale for the hockey stick effect that we have at holiday, right, while maintaining the great experience that we have? And we want to in source, but then we want to scale a holiday. We just had a lot of spirited debate about that. So that was part of that conversation.Stephanie:Very cool. And so are you guys kind of now balanced approach when it comes to customer service, depending on what's incoming and how to route it?Scott:Exactly. Right. So we have a team of internal service people that take various types of contacts, and then we have a few outsourced partners that we work extremely closely with. And we balanced the volume across there. And then at holiday time, we scale up across all. And so it's turned out to be... And we're measuring that experience relentlessly. So it's been a great symbiotic relationship, I think, across all three of those.Stephanie:Well, now that you've touched on holiday, I do kind of want to go into peak season and maybe talking about, I mean, you mentioned that you went through this big technology evolution and implementing new things to try and get to where you are now, what did that look like, especially when it comes to preparing for big surges? I mean, I saw your ecommerce I think went up 100% in 2020 or something, so you guys have had massive growth. What did it look like behind the scenes to prepare for that plus peak demand?Scott:I think it's been this... We're very happy that we started when we did, right? when you think about what happened over the past 12 months and what has happened in the ecommerce world and the growth that everybody has seen, we're fortunate that we started four years ago down this path. Because the foundation that we built really allowed us to scale this year really quickly. We've been through all the load tests dynamics that you go through at holiday, we've built the technology stack that can support the traffic that we knew that we were going to get. We've been through the trials and tribulations of how to test, what to test, where to find the failure modes, and we've got really talented people that work on that stuff every day. We've built controls internally to manage where things might not be working appropriately and to be able to balance that.Scott:And as you think about what happened last year, specifically with curbside, it is the example of, it took us four years to become an overnight success type of situation where [inaudible].Stephanie:[inaudible].Scott:Right.Stephanie:[inaudible]. Who knew?Scott:Totally. So I think it was scaling for holiday. We scale every year for holiday. I think last year was one that we didn't quite know, nobody knew what was really going to happen. But I think we over-prepared, and we executed an extremely successful holiday because we just had every... It was so great to see everybody so engaged in solving that challenge and really thinking through every aspect of what might happen in holiday from fulfillment through the web traffic through customer service. And we really came together as a team and figured out all the ways that things could go right and wrong and covered it all. And we had a great holiday season because of it.Stephanie:That's great. So what areas do you think businesses are maybe under-prepared? Is it in the fulfillment piece? Is it in customer service? What are some of the top pillars that you guys covered down on that maybe some people might not be fully prepared for?Scott:I think that we do a great job in measuring and really paying attention to the athlete experience across all measures, right? I think we've pivoted from, I think historically in most businesses have been in a place where you manage internally, right? You're managing things like conversion or traffic or speed to athlete and things like that, and to be the customer, traditional service levels and customer service. I think those are all important, but I think if you take the outside in view, right, and you're looking at things like how are we measuring the experience, what's happening to that customer when they're out there and they're buying from us? But are they buying from us again, right, as an articulation of their commitment to the brand?Scott:And then how do we influence that purchase behavior? And how do you think expansively about that in terms of not only the shopping experience online that they have, but the post-purchase, the delivery experience, the customer service experience, how are you really measuring that data and getting good information and causal information to figure out how you can drive really great lifetime value? And I think we do that and we're really starting to do that really well across our business. And we've gotten so much support for that outside in view, across our leadership team as well that it's become a real engine of thinking across our teams.Stephanie:I mean, it seems like that holistic view is really hard for a lot of companies to get to though. I mean, I hear about a lot of companies trying to consolidate their tech stack, marketing stack, put it all in one area that things actually are connected and you can have attribution and you can see the LTV. How do you guys think about having that view that allows you to make decisions?Scott:I mean, I think that it's philosophical at some level and don't get me wrong, it's hard because I think when you look at the business on a day-to-day basis, all retailers, right, especially those that are public are driving towards hard goals. We take a much longer term view of things generally across the business, which is really refreshing and great. And so it allows us to really make good decisions. When you think about what we're measuring, how we're investing, we're not investing, I mean, obviously we care about the quarter and we care about the year, right? Don't get me wrong, but I think we're making investments that are in the long-term interest of this brand and our customers. I think, we're a really large small business in that regard. And I think we've been able to energize our teammates to deliver that experience on the front line, but also make the investments on the back end of the house that allow us to do that.Stephanie:And I see you guys have been making some big tech investments. I saw, I think Commerce Hub, you did a multi-year deal with them. And I saw something about the vendor partner program that you have. We can kind of plug and play into a bunch of vendors and have an endless aisle. And I was, wow, that could be game changing to be able to pivot quickly and offer, get to the consumer, right, wherever they are, whatever they need, especially in times right now where it's very uncertain. So it seems tech is a big piece of that, towards that investment philosophy right now.Scott:It is.Stephanie:How are you figuring out what you need and how to put the proper pieces in place?Scott:I think we have over 500 vendors in our drop-ship program. And connecting to it has them, and understanding what the inventory is, and getting them to send us the right inventory, and then order information back and forth in real time is incredibly important, which is why we made the investment in Commerce Hub, it has been a great partner for us for a few years now. And it's easy to use. So I think that's that was great for that aspect of our business. I think our vendor relationships are super strong and we're fortunate that we have them because it allows us to be really creative in the way that we go to market. Scott:And I think we're also continuing to build great brands internally, right? And so if you think about, we just recently launched our first brand and it's been a great success so far. It's great stuff. We had got our [inaudible], if you haven't tried it, you should.Stephanie:I haven't. [inaudible].Scott:That's awesome. It's a partnership that we did with Carrie Underwood about six years ago, and it's quickly become our number two selling women's line.Stephanie:Wow. That's awesome.Scott:And then we launched our DSG brand a few years ago, or a year and a half ago, which is really a value-driven brand and with very high quality, right? So when you think about the continuum of our brands, we have very specific and different strategies and they're complex depending on what we're trying to achieve within a given brand or category within that brand. But I think we're fortunate that we've built such great lasting relationships, because again, I think it gets back to, we take a longer term view of things and we really, I think we treat our vendors as partners.Stephanie:Yep. So key, especially in this industry where so much is happening, so much is changing quick and people can get burned really quickly too.Scott:Right, right, right.Stephanie:It also seems being able to plug into a vendor system like that is important, especially around... It seems a lot of companies are doing private label type of things and launching their own brands. I mean, it's not fully reliant now on the big brands and being able to have that flexibility to pull people into your ecosystem that maybe could have never sold at a DICK'S Sporting Goods before, that seems amazing and really allows access in a way that wasn't here maybe five years ago.Scott:It really does. We're always looking for those bets to make with new and upcoming brands. And our vendor director job channel is a great way to sort of test some of these things. So that's definitely, you hit the nail on the head for us. It's a strategy that we actively have and it's nice because my team who manages that part of our business we'll work with our merchants to say, "What could our strategy be with the supplier or partner X?" Right? Some of these folks are small businesses that can't handle our volumes. So if we buy a little bit more, we can test some of them or we can test it in the vendor direct channel. So it's been a real tool for us.Stephanie:Testing's interesting too. I could see kind of doing AB test quickly and see if people like this product and if they like this one more, okay, here's what we're going to go. Maybe we'll circle back with you next year in a much less risky way to bring people in.Scott:We've gotten really good at testing and specifically on the site with how we're thinking about the experience online. And we test almost everything these days, right? I mean, there's some stuff that I think is just go do things, some go do things that we do. But I think generally speaking, we've really developed a muscle around building an experience and testing it and iterating on it to figure out what's really resonating with the athlete most. So everything from shopping experiences on our site all the way down through the conversion funnel to fulfillment, right? And speed and how we're communicating with our athletes.Scott:So I think we've learned so much, and I'm like constantly reminded when we get these, we all kind of make bets, right, when we launched these tests like what do think's going to happen? And I think I'm wrong so often, it's so important to test.Stephanie:Yep.Scott:Good. Because what you think the consumer is going to do they just don't. And even when you think about surveys, I think there's this everybody lies concept, right? And it's true...Stephanie:And depends on what state they're in or where they're at in the day.Scott:Right, right. So I think it's just so invaluable to us.Stephanie:And we do surveys on the show sometimes just to see who do you want on, and how am I doing? And it's, well, it's depends on probably where that person is, if they're happy, if they're sad, it could be different depending on the place that they're in.Scott:For sure.Stephanie:So what's an example of a test that you ran where you were so sure, you're like this one's going to win, everyone was kind of on board with one scenario winning and then the results come back and everyone's wrong?Scott:That's a good question. We just ran one recently that I did win on, which is the one that was top of mind for me coming into this. Let me talk about that one for a second. So the one we launched on same-day, we're trying to figure out what are our athletes appetite is for same-day services. And we did definitely get a lot of engagement on the test. I kind of thought it was going to be more than it was, but it was still interesting, right? So I think that's something that we're going to continue to have conversation on.Stephanie:They wanted it, the majority of the [inaudible]?Scott:I think they did. It wasn't as much as I would've thought, really.Stephanie:Because that's an interesting one that some people on the show said, people just want to know when it's getting there, they're okay if it's not same day, versus if it's more of a commodity product, you better get it to them the same day. And to kind of seems it depends what it is and how much delayed gratification someone can have on it, it depends, it seems.Scott:Yeah. Some of the tests that I think that we've run that have been less intuitive, I just think how products are set up on the site and how people search, right, and find products like you would think that sometimes when you put the best or most visible sort of notable product of the top search results, that's going to create a better conversion and sometimes it just doesn't, right? So it's really people come in I think with a lot of intent around how they're shopping and sometimes what you think is going to happen just doesn't because I think there's so many different ways that people shop.Stephanie:Yep. How do you think about shifting the website either, from what you learned from last year or when you're approaching peak season, are there certain key elements that you adjust knowing that maybe the consumer's are in a very different mindset than they were at any other time in history probably?Scott:Yeah. I think I can speak more to the way that we think about fulfillment in this regard. I always, I historically had thought, that's another example of what I thought was going to happen. I historically thought that during, for example, Black Friday weekend speed was really important, right? I need it, I want to get it fast. And it turns out that weekend in particular speed is not the most important, getting what you want is the most important, right? So getting the deal is the most important. I think it makes sense because most people are thinking, I've got three or four weeks that this thing can get to me. I'm not super concerned to get it next week, just to make sure that I get it, right?Scott:So that's one that we adjust in terms of making sure that we're really being honest with how we're going to fulfill. Thankfully we've got an extraordinarily resilient fulfillment network and we do really well in speed and but historically had been surprised as we've really measured that one over Black Friday weekend. It's really about getting the deal, not the speed.Stephanie:Versus Christmas when everyone's probably last minute shopping, it's probably opposite.Scott:Very different.Stephanie:Okay.Scott:Very different. And as you get into December and you get through towards the ground cutoffs and you get, depending on what's happening, the speed becomes a real issue. Last year was was nuts. I mean, FedEx was running commercials, right? They talked about the speed or buy early. And we definitely saw a little bit of a shift in terms of how people were thinking about buying.Stephanie:So how are you building up that resilience fulfillment network that you mentioned to be able to basically say I can offer anyone the endless aisle, we have unlimited of these, in one moment and then be, okay, now next month got to go, got to be there in three days or less type of scenario?Scott:I think you mentioned it when we kicked off the show, it was we've got over 700 fulfillment locations when you think about our store network, which is a blessing for us because it allows us to really, not only be closer to our athlete and get things there faster, but also allows for a lot of flexibility when... It's just load balancing, right? When you think about a business that has a couple of three, in my past one fulfillment center, when that thing gets backed up, or you have a labor problem or you have whatever the case, would be trucks that don't show up on the receiving dock or the outgoing dock, you're kind of backed up, right?.Scott:And so while that definitely happens across everybody's network, including ours, having all of these different nodes that are moving product out each and every really helps mitigate the risk. And so it also helps us, at peak time, it helps us staff up and get stuff out. And we have we've built a really sophisticated way to manage the way that orders are routing. So we're able to identify where we might have congestion points, for example, and try to proactively avoid those as we see those things happening, right? So we can move orders to one node or another, or block a node if we've got a weather issue or something, or we've got, in the fall when you have hurricanes in Florida, right, or in the Southeast, we're able to really change the way that our orders route to get product out of different places that aren't having those issues.Stephanie:And is that kind of done in the background where it's looking at all these different inputs and then kind of making decisions that you can come in and adjust if you need to, but it's already routing it for you in the background?Scott:Yeah. So part of it's automated part of it's people, right? And it's still a lot of people, right, washing the switches each day. But we've got a great team of people that are communicating, we're communicating out of our stores to my team and fulfillment. We're communicating from my team into stores and we're using the technology that we've built to really manage the capacity and the inventory across the entire network.Stephanie:It seems that is so important too you when you essentially have two business units when it comes to fulfillment, you've got your store locations with one set of data, inventory is probably very hard to track because it's always getting grabbed, it's always getting shipped out, and then you have just maybe a fulfilment center that's a whole different beast probably. How do you get to that consolidate view? Is that part of the backend tech that's kind of looking at it at a higher level, treating it all as one?Scott:It is and it's definitely complex for the reasons that you noted. And it creates, sometimes it can compromise how close we can get to the athlete if we think we've got a unit in Austin, Texas and we actually don't. The fortunate part is instead of canceling that order on you or that unit on you, it's going to go to maybe it'll go to a Dallas store, right? And we can still stay pretty close to you and get it to you. And we're also trying to look at things like, how do we keep packages together? Of course, anybody that's listening to this that manages freight will say, yep, really important from a cost perspective. And frankly, even from, as I mentioned earlier, that athlete experience, people want to get one box, right? I don't want to order three or four different things and get three or four different boxes. And sometimes that's unavoidable, but we're trying everything we can to not let that happen.Stephanie:Oh, blessing.Scott:Totally, right?Stephanie:I get, one company I'm not going to mention their name, they will send a can of soup, anything a bone broth. I mean, it's in these little bags and they just come one at a time. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I just would have rather just gone to the store and picked it up myself than getting random of one item at a time."Scott:It's so wonderful when the customer experience need and the business need align, right? So when you think about, nobody wants to ship more packages to you, right? We want to get it to you, we want to get to you fast and we want to get it to you in one package. And that's also a great experience for you. It's the same thing we talk about with customer service, which is a traditional metric that people manage as average handle time, right? How long are [inaudible]? And I'm so careful, we collectively are so careful with this metric because it can be so disastrous to the teammate that's on the other end of the phone if they think they're being managed to a handle time, right? I don't want to just get you off the phone, however, and you need to use it for all kinds of different scheduling and making sure you have enough people on the team.Scott:But what's really aligned is generally people want to get to an answer pretty quickly also, right? I want to have an efficient, valuable use of my time. I want to get to an answer and then I want to move on with my day. So that's another example of where if we can do it right and align those desires, we're going to create an awesome experience.Stephanie:The unintended consequences, pizzas is such a tricky thing with thinking about designing roles and KPIs. I mean, I'm doing it right now. I'm thinking about sales and building a sales team and being like, oh wait, this might incentivize bad behavior.Scott:You got to really think about it, right?Stephanie:You just think really strategically about it.Scott:The outcome or the impact is very different than the intent in some cases.Stephanie:Yep. Are there any external inputs right now that you think companies aren't preparing for? I'm thinking about the algorithms that are kind of running everything behind the scenes when it comes to your fulfillment and things like that. Is there anything that you guys are watching now that maybe you weren't watching a couple of years ago and letting it help influence how things are routed or how things are kind of being redirected, anything like that?Scott:I mean, I think we're constantly trying to get to be more precise, and we're very fortunate that if everything goes right, we can get you an order really, really quickly. So we're really trying to pay attention to, where are things not going perfectly and we've called this thing the perfect order, what's our perfect order, right? And how do we get more of those? So we're spending a lot of time thinking about how we can perfect our fulfillment network. And I mean, it is, as you can imagine, just an infinite number of variables that dictate how this thing goes. But we're working a lot on that. I do not think that...Stephanie:[inaudible] like local stuff, because that's something that kind of came to mind. You're paying attention to weather and higher level things are you down in the weeds of, okay, well there's a festival this week here so that means... Is it that [inaudible].Scott:It can be. I mean, for example, when we're doing a hot market event, so Super Bowl, NCAA Tournament, they're national events, but their inventories largely local, right? So we're really paying attention to what the traffic is doing and the inventory is doing it at those local levels for sure.Stephanie:I'd love to talk about events a bit because I know that's a focus is the athlete experience online and in person as well. And I saw that you guys are opening more retail locations. You're opening, I think I saw a golf center, I soccer center, I mean, these full on experiences. And I'd love to hear how you guys are thinking about that.Scott:I'm glad you mentioned that we're really proud. We just opened recently the House of Sport up in Victor, New York, which is an expression of what we think the future can be for DICK'S Sporting Goods. And it's really an experiential retail location. So you can go in there, obviously we've got golf simulators and we've got fitting in there. We've got rock walls to climb. We've got an outdoor fitness field where we're doing things and we're engaging the community in different ways. So we're running clinics and figuring out how we can get local teams into their... Engaging in the community in this way has been a part of our brand since 1948, right? So I think, if you read the story of DICK'S and how we were involved in the Binghamton New York community, when the business was founded, it'll give you a sense for why this is important to us.Scott:And we just believe that, we say it all the time, we believe that sports makes people better. So how do we think about engaging in the community where we're at? We've done this forever in community marketing, and you see how we donate equipment to local teams and so forth. This is kind of another evolution of that, where we think we can make a big impact, we can change the way that people think about retail. And I think it'll quickly get to how do we merge the online and the brick and mortar or traditional retail experience? So I think that's a place that is really exciting to us right now.Stephanie:I was just thinking about, how do you create, you have a view where you know this person came in to this event and they were using the golf simulator, and they really liked this club. And then they either bought in store or maybe four weeks later they ended up online and bought the one that they were using? Do you feel you're moving in a direction where you're going to have that viewpoint? And it's not a hard time to get there.Scott:Yeah, I think we're getting there. I think we're really focused on data and analytics, right? And so I think our ability to stitch together these experiences, we're building that muscle. I don't think that we're totally there yet, but we've got really smart people that are thinking about this. And I think we're moving in that direction because that's the key. We're not really worried about what channel you buy in, right? I think it's more about, are we the retailer of choice for you, right? And however that experience, the experience that we can build for that, it's important to measure it because then I think it unlocks the investment in the targeted areas that are going to drive more of that for our athletes. So I think that's where we're really focused.Stephanie:Have you thought about creating essentially kind of a guide shop, but you have the soccer experience or something, and then just a small shop where maybe you can look at a few other things, but then essentially you're going back online to order whatever you played with and got to experiment with, or are you doing full on retail location as always, and then often this area we're doing our experience center?Scott:We haven't done really pop up experiences, guide shop experiences like that. We're moving more towards, how do we create a more scaled experiential experience in store and then how do we measure that in terms of who might go online to buy.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). I love that. I'm excited to see... I need to visit one of those stores, especially the soccer one. I mean, I don't know what it's going to be happening there, but I want to be there.Stephanie:I want to hear, which I feel you'll have a great answer for is what are you all most excited about right now over the next one to two years? What are you most passionate about?Scott:We're excited about a lot of things. And as usual, we have a very full plate. So I think things that we've already deployed that we'll continue to refine, things like our curbside program or a buy and pickup in store program for online, we're really excited about that. That's got a long runway of improvement, enhancement, and creativity that's going to be placed into that program. We are really excited about this merger of... I'm really excited about the merger of stores and online specifically around becoming a trusted advisor to our athletes. So if you think about the breadth of the teammates that we have, and when you walk into our stores or you talk to our people online, everybody's got a passion, right? Your passion is lacrosse and soccer.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Scott:How do we think about unlocking that potential, right, in terms of then being able to help our customer, whether that customer is buying first player pair of soccer cleats for their son, to getting ready to play club soccer, to getting ready to go off and play soccer at a D1 level or beyond, right? So how do we look at that continuum of expertise and really become that trusted advisor, both online and in our stores? And I think that is incredibly exciting venture. And we do it well today. I think there's an opportunity to do it even better. So we're really excited about that. We're really excited about the assortment, right, that we're going to continue to launch online. I think it's going to be differentiated. I think it's going to keep our position in the market really strong.Scott:So I think the product that we put in there, the expertise that we put in there is going to be differentiated in the market, right? And that I think is probably more incremental and more incremental expression to the core business. And then we're going to continue to press. Game Changer has been a great business for us for years. And that team is great. And they continue to build a technology that service the baseball market. But we're always looking for different ways that we can expand or innovate across the industry.Stephanie:I love that, you know what? We need like, what do you do after college? I always think about that and I'm like, I loved playing sports. But then you start working, and then you have kids, and then you're, I still want to play, but how do I get back into it? And something is missing there, Scott. [inaudible].Scott:No, but I love... So that's who we want. That's another sort of persona that we really want to love to serve in our stores. Because I'm one of them.Stephanie:I'm your person.Scott:Right.Stephanie:We're the people.Scott:We're the people. And I think what we want to be able to do, I love talking about this. I think in our stores and online, our ability to listen and inspire, right, how do we help you meet that goal, right? "Hey, I'm doing a couch to 5k first time. I'm starting to get active." Or, for me, the 5'8 guy that always had a dream of the NBA that never came to fruition because my vertical is about that high. I still play. I want to make sure that I can get all the gear that I need to be competitive, right, or to achieve my personal best.Scott:So I love the fact that we can really positively impact people's lives in that way. And I think we want to make... I would love to make sure personally that anybody that walks into our store and knows that we're not just a sporting goods retailer, right? I think we want to make sure that we're helping, we want to facilitate you achieving your dreams. And then we talk a lot about that internally. So if we can translate or transmit that feeling to our athletes, I think that's really powerful.Stephanie:And also makes me think about creating custom leagues too, where it's, this is a different kind of league. It's not the traditional school. It's not even people creating their own volleyball leagues. It's we are a part of this. We're making sure that this can happen for people who struggle to even find those networks. I mean, I know back when I was in DC, I looked for where's some other women who play lacrosse? I don't really want to play with guys who are going to be checking me and I count find it, super hard to find. I mean, it's easy to find some sports in a community setting, but it's very hard to find people in certain other sports settings.Scott:You're right. There's a social, I don't want to, careful to say social network, but there is this idea of how do I plug into people that are me within a certain geographical area, right? That would be interesting. That's really interesting. Thanks for that one. Let me...Stephanie:Take it back to leadership. We just need a parenting kit. It's, here's everything you need so that we can go play our sports and then your kids are entertained. They get many lacrosse sticks. You go there and then I'll go off on my own so I can actually play, give me the kid.Scott:I love that idea.Stephanie:I want to think like such parents. Anyone who's not a parent is probably, "What are y'all talking about right now?"Scott:What are you talking about? Yep.Stephanie:Yep. All right. So let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Scott:I think so.Stephanie:Okay. So I'm sad, I haven't asked this yet and don't know this, but what is your favorite sport?Scott:Basketball.Stephanie:Oh, nice.Stephanie:And who's your favorite sports team?Scott:It's always been the Chicago Bulls since back in the day, which is probably blasted me because I live in Pittsburgh. So to not say football and the Pittsburgh Steelers is a problem.Stephanie:You'd probably get egged.Scott:Probably. But they're close second.Stephanie:That's good. What is the nicest thing anyone's done for you?Scott:Oh, wow. I'm going to struggle. I'm going to go to my kids. I think my kids being, this is going to sound so cheesy, but it's so serious. The way that my kids treat other people with respect and kindness, I think is the thing that comes to mind for me first. And I know that's probably not the answer that you would normally get.Stephanie:Nope, I like it.Scott:To me that's pretty important. So I'm really proud of them. And I think that's probably the best thing that somebody could do for me.Stephanie:I love that. There's so much you can learn from kids. I think about that all the time. So I'm the person who is here for those cheesy kind of kid answers. You're in the right space. What's one thing you don't know that you wish you understood better?Scott:American history comes to mind?Stephanie:That's a good one.Scott:I don't think that's on topic, but that's the first one that comes to mind.Stephanie:When you want to feel more joy, what do you do?Scott:It's going to sound crazy. I tell people, thank you.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Scott:Right. So I just believe that there's a lot... I get a lot of energy from being grateful, right? And so that's what I do. If I'm really feeling a little down or if I'm really stressed or some of the times the way that I work out and I get the endorphins mode going, that's one way to do it, and the other way is to be grateful for things. So I feel that's the way I get a lot of energy.Stephanie:I love that. All right. And then the last one, I mean, it seems you guys are very much ahead on a lot of things within the ecosystem. What do you do to stay on top of the trends? Are you watching other companies? Are you reading things, what are you doing to stay on top?Scott:I think it's a combination of experiencing and reading. I don't read nearly enough, it's hard, right? There's so much the content that comes out and not enough time. So I'm trying to just experience things out in the wild right? I'm talking to a lot of people, whether it's parents at a game or if it's just my own experiences online, and I'm trying to translate that to what's happening and why companies would do things a certain way. And then my team is doing the same thing. So I think we're trying to stay close. We're trying to stay close that way and certainly reading and engaging in conversations like this also kind of help.Stephanie:Good. That's awesome. Well, cool. Well, Scott, thank you so much for joining us. It was really fun to hear all about what you guys are up to. Where can people find more about DICK'S Sporting Goods and find you?Scott:I think www.dickssportinggoods.com. For the story of Public Lands and Golf Galaxy, and you can find me at LinkedIn, on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thank you so much.Scott:Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great time.

Scott and Michelle offer these practices to keep in mind at any stage of a health journey. Mindfulness. Take just a few moments to be present and distraction-free. Don't overcomplicate the journey. Overthinking and overcontrolling quickly lead to anxiety and depression. Taking small, practical steps will get you where you need to be. Share your journey with others, but not everybody. Close friends can keep you accountable and motivated. But your journey is intimate and won't always be pretty.  Have the right reason. There is something intrinsically motivating you to live a better life. Don't confuse that with the urge to suddenly identify as a health nut. Living in the past isn't productive. Your body changes, and your lifestyle changes. What worked then might not work now. Take this into account when evaluating what exercise is right for you and what you expect your body to do and look like. Limit social media. It's a time suck. Sleep well and take time to relax. The hours between 11-3 AM are our best opportunity for quality sleep. Don't skip it. Let go of toxic relationships. You can't easily avoid people, but you can let certain people in closer while others remain at a distance. Setting personal boundaries with even your loved ones will lead to healthier relationships. TranscriptMichelle: Welcome to the Totality Living Well podcast where we probe into the nitty-gritty aspects of health: the good, the offbeat, and even the controversial things that aren't always discussed. Whether you've had a long-standing curiosity or simply want to know more about a topic, we're here to explore the solutions and answers to empower you in body, mindset, and spirit.Scott: Hey guys, Scott and Michelle Williams here. Healthy living consultants, certified in nutrition fitness and neuromuscular massage.Michelle: We're parents, business owners, and understand the challenges that life can bring with keeping the elements of your own health on track while ensuring that the kids, parents, pets, and loved ones in your life are also taken care of with the resources they need for health and longevity.Scott: We're so glad you joined us.Michelle: Seeking to live a life of health for many entails acknowledging a specific need, setting a goal for improvement, and then implementing the necessary steps to reach that goal. But that's not always as easy as it sounds is it, especially when it comes to all of the factors pertaining to real life. If it were that simple, then the health and wellness industry wouldn't be as big as it is. Welcome everyone to our podcast today. I am Michelle Williams, along with my fabulous husband Scott Williams from Totality Living Well. And today we're going to be addressing the one issue that can trip us up as we aspire to reach any health goal, or really any goal. And that is energy drains.Scott: That's right. The topic needs to be discussed because as health professionals, we've seen so many people out there that really and truly want to make a change. And they come to us and they're so excited about doing that. And so many things start to get in their way, and they just don't understand why they cannot get to that point.Michelle: So, the last time we left you with some tips on how to really get cruising on your health journey. And why don't you recap those for us?Scott: Practicing mindfulness in your life is such an important mindset on this. It's not just about your body, it's about your body, mind, and your spirit. Self-care is vital for us: to take care of others, we've really truly got to be able to take care of ourselves to begin with. And don't overcomplicate the journey. The journey can be simple, you just have to get moving, you don't need to assess every single thing that you see in a magazine or everything everybody else is doing.Michelle: And that leads to this valuable insight that we want to share is how to reach those goals without the distractions and those things that can deplete our journey. So, we've got a long list of sneaky little traps that can be avoided, if we know what they are. And we're just going to share those with you and just go ahead and dig in.Scott: Sounds good.Michelle: Okay, so the first one, I think it just goes in right with that third tip of don't overcomplicate the journey, and that's overthinking the journey. I guess just any client we've really worked with who gets kind of caught up in—you know, I'm guilty of doing this myself: individuals who really want to control the journey ahead, and one way to kind of think that they can do that is by overthinking. And ultimately, when I started thinking about this, I started thinking about overthinking really kind of has a couple of different underlying reasons. One is maybe a lack of organization. Two would be a lack of confidence or having self-doubt about the journey ahead, and then not fully having a defined goal or being fully committed to that goal. And then when I started thinking about that a little bit more I thought about overthinking maybe is actually something that stems from worry or desperation to really want to accomplish that goal. So, it's not really something that's counterproductive for us, and when you think about it, it's more of a mind issue. So, that effort to control the whole journey ahead by overthinking is really the one thing that makes you lose control, and it just totally self-sabotage is the entire thing. So, basically, just keep it simple.Scott: Right, exactly. Because people do come in with great goals. And I think that what they're looking for is they're looking for validation in that goal; they want you to validate what they're trying to achieve. Sometimes it might not be their actual goal, but they think, “Oh, but this is going to make me healthy and/or this is going to make my professional that I'm working with think that I'm on the right track.”Michelle: Like, I'm truly invested in that.Scott: Exactly. And sometimes you have to take a step back and figure out realistically, it's like, how do you look at the baby steps of this goal and come back to kindergarten as opposed to running as a senior. And really, and truly taking the steps to go level by level to achieve those goals.Michelle: I think one of the things that goes along with it, and it's not really part of the notes that we had kind of things that we wanted to discuss today, but also overtalking about something; just talking incessantly about, “I'm going to be a vegetarian,” “I'm a vegetarian,” “Oh, my new vegetarian diet.” I mean, just for example.Scott: Oh, yeah.Michelle: And then just that constant talk, talk, talk, it's almost like there's a way to have that proper accountability, but there's also a way that people try to convince themselves and they're not really realizing that they're convincing themselves. So, I think that overtalking goes right in hand-in-hand with overthinking.Scott: I think so too, and I think what happens is, people need to keep that to one or two people that can actually really help them kind of just grab forward and go with that, but not talk to everybody about it. Because everybody just gets tired of hearing it because all they want to see is, “Okay, you're doing that. So, what's the result? What's this look like?” You know, they look at you and go, “Well, you're a vegetarian, or you've done this, or you've done that. What was your goal truly about? And are you really achieving it, or do you look the same as you did a month ago when I saw you?”Michelle: I think one of the things, too, is like, if someone establishes a goal and it's not for the right reasons to accomplish something, but rather to make it an identity, that's when you see a lot of that happen. People are kind of wanting to establish something to be known for.Scott: Right, exactly. Because everybody wants to be popular in the public. Everybody wants to be known for something. And sometimes that is lack of what they had as a kid as far as the compliments from people as a child, and they're still trying to feed that back into their lives.Michelle: Yeah. And when we do start working with clients for their health journey, we really do assess where they are in that whole goal-setting place in life because there are different phases: there's that pre-contemplation, and then there's the contemplation, all the way up to action. And so when someone's finally in that action phase, they're still not overthinking. So, I think that that's probably a kind of a good sign of not being fully ready to move forward.Scott: It is truly. And that helps them really assess because sometimes they think they come in, and they're like, “Yep, here's the money, let's go.” And they think by hiring you, or by having someone holding you accountable, it's going to just flip a switch, and all of a sudden—and their goals are going to just happen magically. And really, and truly, we got to step back and see why.Michelle: Another big energy drainer that I see with people who do overthink is living in the past. And I know that you can speak to this just the same, where we meet with people—and let's just say middle-agers, okay. Let's just say somebody who had a great football career when they were teenagers, and they ate the house down, and they can't understand what the age of 45 they're gaining all this weight. They never had that problem before. Well, are you moving the way that you moved when you were a teenager, you know, to warrant eating that? Another thing would be from ladies, I hear, “Well, I know exactly what to do. I'm just here for the accountability, and what I've done has worked in the past.” And I kind of laugh to myself, “Well, if it worked in the past, why are we here?” Because if you lost that weight before you had children, and you were in your 20s, and you knew what to do, and you were radically going for it, and then, later on, you have children, and you haven't lost that baby weight and it's been 15 years, since you've lost that baby weight, what worked then, chances are it's not going to work now. And so we have to always be mindful and reminding ourselves and other people that what has always worked doesn't always work. I know personally, there are times in my life, I guess, I found myself wanting to detoxify from childhood, processed meats and things like that, where going vegetarian was a great thing for me. Ultimately, going vegan was nice for a little while. And I had my children and Mama wanted some meat, and so that meat-eating diet kind of came back and it was right for me at that time. And as a nutrition specialist coaching other people, one thing that we can say is that there's not a one size fits all approach to diet and to exercise, movement, that kind of thing. And you think about it: babies have a totally different requirement, from a nutrition standpoint than a toddler. A toddler's got a totally different need than a teenage boy playing football. That teenage boy playing football has a totally different dietary need than someone who's going to be hitting the big three-oh for their milestone birthday. And that person is still going to be different from what a senior needs. So, we all need different things at different times. And living in the past, it's a comfort to say, “I've been there, I've accomplished, I knew it worked,” but the mind needs new things, the body needs new approaches based on what our resources are, what our routines are, what the current body is, what we have and that kind of thing. I know, you've seen that too.Scott: Exactly. When I was in my teens I worked out, I played sports. When I got into my 20s, I started mountain biking. At that point in time, you go to mountain bike ride and burning and 3500 calories a day. And I could eat like a house, and realistically, it wasn't a big thing. Then I rolled into my 30s, kind of got away from that kind of conditioning, went back into the gym and started a little bit more about building muscle, and then I had to retain correct nutrition, and not just caloric density, to actually rebuild the body that I wanted to. And then in my 40s I started looking ahead, and all of a sudden, all the active things that I did, my joints weren't exactly wanting to do it as much anymore, and then you should have a shift of metabolism. And you have to realistically figure out what is your goal right now because what you're doing in your 40s is not what you were doing in your 20s. You have to have that reality check; you're not going to have what you had in your 20s, but how do you make your best 40s?Michelle: Right, and a 50-year-old cannot look like their 20-year-old self. It's just, it doesn't matter how many times they go to have their hair done, or go under the knife, or have all these aesthetic treatments, it's a different body, and it is about embracing what you have to work with, in the current moment.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: So, I guess I would just say, to remember that today's a new day; yesterday's the past and just don't go back. Just leave it in the past.Scott: Leave it in the past.Michelle: Yeah, set your new goals for the day ahead.Scott: Right, and just make sure that you're—just find that mindset that you're good with that. And I think that's what people stumble with is you've got to look at yourself and go, hey, I am great where I am, and I can be the best 40-year-old, 50-year-old, 60-year-old that I can be out there, versus some of the people you see out there that are in your same age range. One of the big things that we talk a little bit about as far as time and things that take away from, I want to talk a little bit about social media. Everybody wants to get on social media; social media, it's just such a trap out there. And realistically, you spend 10 minutes here, you spend 20 minutes, there, you spend 30 minutes there, and all of a sudden you say, “Well, I just don't have time to go to the gym anymore,” or, “I don't have time to eat right,” or, “I don't have time to sit and read and meditate a little bit.” If you look at some of those trackers out there, you can actually really tell what you're doing with each thing that you have on your phone, you can see how much time you're wasting.Michelle: It's crazy. I mean it, it becomes addictive.Scott: It does.Michelle: I mean, not only to the kids but adults too. I can log in not even realizing that I'm logging in to check my feed. I don't even think that I'm doing it; I'm doing it subconsciously. And I can look down and think that maybe 5 or 10 minutes has gone by, and it's been an hour plus.Scott: Right.Michelle: And I just read feeds. Boy, I could have really read a good chapter in a book. [laugh].Scott: Yeah, getting caught up. Or I could have actually got up and went for a walk, and then got some sunshine.Michelle: Yeah, no kidding. I agree; social media is a huge energy trap. And I think just checking email also, it can be a big distraction, too.Scott: Yeah, because we have so much junk email out there. If everything could filter out all of the junk, and you could truly just get the true emails you need each day, that would be great.Michelle: Yeah, I think it's the same thing. I think just setting designated times and timelines for looking at those kinds of things is a huge help.Scott: Yeah. And then beyond that, it's just like, we spend so much time doing some of that stuff, we stay up too late. We stay up too late on social media, we stay up too late in emails, we stay up too late watching TV, some people stay up too late playing video games. And when you stay up too late, you throw off your entire next day.Michelle: Well, especially when it's time and again. Because okay, yes, there's going to be the big ball game that comes on, and that's going to run late into the night, and we want to see that; we don't want to record that; we don't want to watch what's more fun to watch live. I mean, certain things need to take place in real-time.Scott: Oh, exactly.Michelle: And kids might have sports. And a lot of those times we know from when our kids were in cross country. We didn't get home until 10 o'clock at night, sometimes. It was a school night.Scott: It was crazy.Michelle: It was. So, I mean there are times when we have to kind of make the exception, but I do think it builds up, like what you're saying. And then that really wears the body down and the mind down.Scott: It really does because you actually then to start the next day, you want to eat everything that you can because your body is deprived of what it needed for rest. So, now it's going to try to replace it with calories.Michelle: Yeah, it messes up that leptin and ghrelin hormone balance of when you are hungry and how full you are, and those just get really whacked out when you don't get that sleep. And then too, I have learned from multiple sources time and again at different seminars and from various educators, that the time period that you can sleep between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. are valid for regenerating the body, resetting the body. So, yes, you can go to bed a little later than what you want to be, if you can stay asleep and get good quality sleep in that little window of time, you're at least doing yourself a favor.Scott: Definitely. But four hours sleep isn't quite enough for the night.Michelle: Yeah, not for the norm. I mean, there are some rare individual, I guess, that can get by with that, but that's certainly not me.Scott: Me either. [laugh].Michelle: And we have taken a couple of supplements before that have helped us. Obviously, we recommend everybody check with their health care provider and professional before doing anything, but we've had great experience with melatonin and [00:15:58 methionine], which is an amino acid, just bringing calm to the body, helping it turn off. Soaking in a hot bath with lavender and Epsom salt.Scott: Yeah, a lot of relaxation type things before bed.Michelle: And turning lights out. Turning lights and electronics out and just, you know, unplugging.Scott: Right. Easy, soft music, something just that relaxes you down.Michelle: Right. And you were saying that it does throw off the way we eat. So, that brings us to our fifth energy drainer. And that is living on a poor diet. I mean, you think about it, you're tired, you're running late for work, you haven't prepared anything for lunch, or even breakfast and you're going by the drive-through. First thing you're going to do is grab that fast sandwich, that biscuit, whatever, and that's not really giving you quality nutrition. So, over time, your body's getting dead food; it's getting processed food, and it can't regenerate by its divine design. It's one thing to grab that one meal on a quick whim, but to make that your lifestyle, that starts to add up, and that starts to make you feel pretty lousy. And when I teach kids, one of the slides that I have is garbage in, garbage out. So, what you take in, that's what you're going to be putting back out. And a lot of times, that's really lousy energy—Scott: It truly is.Michelle: —you know, and irritability, and not being able to be on your game. So, I even use that with the chefs that I teach at the college for the Culinary Institute. They want to know, why is healthy food, all that important? And I'm like, let's just rewind down to the basics: it's an energy drainer. You don't feel good, and you're not living that quality life.Scott: Yeah, exactly. It's one of those things that, if you were around from different decades, as we were, and if you can realize the fact that why can they still sell a hamburger for the same price they did when we were kids.Michelle: Or the ice cream sandwich that never melts on the sidewalk. [laugh].Scott: [laugh].Michelle: That's really weird.Scott: And we watched the kids get fast food type things around here that you look in a cup and it's still there the next day, and you're like, why is that still in a full form?Michelle: Yeah, that's really freaky. You know that Twinkie test, I've never taken the Twinkie test but apparently, they don't rot at all, they're so loaded. [laugh]. I remember eating Twinkies when I was a little girl. I was given one to—my mom gave it to appease me before breakfast, so I wonder if those Twinkies are still with me? Well, basically getting good fresh enzymes, and that means the colors of the rainbow that are grown in nature your red, orange, yellow, green, blue, fruits, vegetables and get those in when you can even if you do have to merge that with foods that aren't ideal, and they're more of the grab-and-go if you can grab that salad or even a juice, that's better for you, getting those life enzymes.Scott: Definitely. Exactly. When we go into another step of life as far as things that actually drain us as well, and we started looking at relationships. Being out there, and toxic relationships, and negative people, and—Michelle: No, not in this day and age. [laugh].Scott: And just the negative side of everything. You look at—if you turn on the news, everybody's hating on everybody. And it's like, when did we start becoming such a society of hate, and where did the love go? And so, the more that you can separate yourself from those types of things, the better that you do with life if you begin your day with more positivity.Michelle: There's this book that I have been reading, and it's pretty neat. It's called Your Body Believes Every Word You Say. And this lady was really ill, and she couldn't figure out how to get well. And then she started changing the way that she thought and the way that she spoke and her body responded, and it's a pretty cool story. I don't know who the author is, but it's a pretty good book. And it's true. It's like, the words that you are around and the words that you speak, they do either make or break you. And when you are around that negativity—and sometimes you can't help it. Sometimes you work with someone, and you see someone every day and they're just really a downer. But that's where you have to kind of dig deep and control the way you respond.Scott: Exactly. And when you get yourself together, the more you are in tune with your life and the more balanced you are, the more that you will start to attract. I was telling Michelle this, that when you do that, you're going to become a magnet. And people magnetize towards you that are people that love you, and people magnetize [00:20:29 who are do] people that hate you. And the responses are so different. You get people that love you, and realistically, you can't get away from them because they want more and more from you, and you get people that hate you, and they'll snub you, and walk away, or talk bad about you.Michelle: Yeah, you've kind of said, too, that when you start that positive journey in making strides for your health or trying to establish healthier habits in your lifestyle, you get people who kind of want to pull from you because they want a piece of that too. And you're a little bit stronger than they are, or you've got people who kind of… they're not so happy because it, maybe, makes them aware that they've got something that they should probably change, you know, they want to change. So, those are the people that kind of start hating on you. You know, you're going to get it both ways.Scott: And when we go places with Michelle, it's like, when she's in balance, and everything is feeling good—and that's the majority of the time, it's like, we get people that just magnetize towards her, in the stores that we go to, and they want interesting information, they want topics, they want tips. Just because we did some time on TV, they know us a little bit better. And it takes so much time out of our day sometimes, and I like to push it on through, but she magnetizes people that really and truly want part of what she has, or you see people that walk by us and kind of give us a look kind of like, “Eh, who are you?” So, it kind of feeds both ways.Michelle: Yeah. And I think having a positive attitude makes me want to engage with people as well. So—Scott: It does.Michelle: —there are those times that you tell me to just sit in the car while you run in and out. [laugh].Scott: That's right, I tell her, I say, “We only got 10 minutes, I'm going to go in here, I'm going to get this handled, and I'm going to go.” Okay because I like to say, “Hi, bye,” but I'm not wanting to overly engage because usually, I've got a time schedule to keep.Michelle: There you go. So, we've got another energy drainer. Why don't you tell us about this one?Scott: You know, this is about—Michelle: Saying yes to so much.Scott: That's right. And realistically, it's like, everybody wants to please people. So, when people want your time, when they want your volunteerism, when they want your help, we all want to say yes because we want to be a pleaser.Michelle: We want to be part of the solution.Scott: Right. We want to help people get through something. And it's so hard that realistically, you just have to stop sometime and say, “Okay. Can I really achieve this? Is this going to put me over the top? Do I really have time to do this?” And you have to say no, sometimes.Michelle: Yeah, you have to guard your time. And just remember that the opinions of others doesn't define you. And you remind me of that all the time because I want to say yes to people. I want to give. I want to help other people. But sometimes I don't reserve what I need to for my own self-growth.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: And I remember when I first started practicing it—I don't know if I'll ever master it, but I try—but I know the kids were little, and a parent asked for me to volunteer for something in a classroom, and it was the first time that I thought, “I'm going to practice saying no,” and it didn't really go over all that well. And I threw it back in her lap, I guess, and she was kind of offended, even though it was nice about it. And it's never easy. So, I think that's just an ongoing thing that I'm learning to practice. But it does; it pulls you in so many directions, and it can drain you of your energy.Scott: Oh, exactly because you'll get stressed out because you took on too much.Michelle: Yeah there are ways to say, “You know what, thank you so much for thinking of me, but I don't think that's going to work out right now.” You don't have to just do a hardcore, “No.” Or, “Heck no.” You can—Scott: Right.Michelle: —be, you know—Scott: Diplomatic.Michelle: Yeah, diplomatic. And it's very awkward at times, even being diplomatic.Scott: It is. Definitely.Michelle: I'd rather say no through text than I would face. [laugh]. So, you do. You have to guard your time. And I think that leads into our next energy drainer and that is not front-loading your day, with self-care in body, mindset, and spirit. Because we get so busy during the day and we can have all of these intentions and then they fall through and at the end of the day you think, “Well, what did I even get to do for myself?” And that can lead to resentment, more fatigue. You think, “I didn't even make any progress today.” But if we can start the beginning of the day doing some sort of self-care that—and I love to start with exercise. In an ideal world, I'd be up at 5 a.m. every day doing my gym time. Sometimes that's not very conducive, especially if I have an early morning commitment of some sort. But I do like to do that. That's one of the things that I feel like it sets those feel-good hormones, those endorphins in the right direction, and I'm able to think clearly through the day. And you, you start the day with reading, and meditating, and saying a prayer. And you're very consistent with that.Scott: But I have to be because I feel like if I don't get started off in the right boat, somewhere down the road, when the day gets overwhelming, I feel off, you know? I feel like my energy isn't there, my motivation isn't there, even just a little saddened sometimes. So, realistically, it's like, I need to take that time in the morning to start my day with who I'm going to be.Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a lot to that. It could be something just as simple as reading something inspirational, taking a moment to just be grateful for something, moving your body. You don't even have to go anywhere, just move for five minutes, stretch, anything like that. And then start the day with something healthy, start the day with a good hydration, something like that. It's pretty pivotal in the direction that it can take you. So, there you go; those are our energy drainers. And one of, I guess, the overlooked things that could be included in that morning routine would be making sure that you have your day planned out the night before.Scott: Yeah.Michelle: I don't know if that's an evening routine, or if that's a morning routine, but they kind of like, merge together.Scott: They do they really do because if for some reason you didn't get your clothes cleaned, you didn't prepare meals the night before, you don't have your water—I fill my water jug every night, almost every single time because I like cold water.Michelle: And I don't, and I don't like cold water. I don't fill my water jug and I end up drinking yours. [laugh].Scott: Exactly. That's what always happens, unfortunately. But those are some of the small things I put into place because I know if I do that, then the next day is going to at least start pretty well.Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, I think that if we are mindful of these energy drainers, and we know, kind of, the impact that they can have on our lives, it just helps us to be better prepared, so that we can shift accordingly. And that doesn't say that we're going to live a life of perfection. But being mindful, that's huge.Scott: Yeah, and I think at least it helps you identify them maybe before they come, and how you're going to handle them.Michelle: Exactly. So, three tips that we want to leave our listeners with today—and we really do appreciate you listening to our insights on energy draining—that we want to leave you with: setting personal boundaries for yourself that you will and will not allow in your life. That's huge because that gives you kind of an automatic roadmap to follow.Scott: And I think one of the most important ones for me is scheduling time for yourself and holding those appointments. Don't let anybody get in your way. Don't let the kids, the dog, the cat, a client, anybody take your time because that time is valuable to your balance.Michelle: You don't have to say, “Oh, I'm getting my hair done,” or, “Oh, I'm going to take a nap,” or whatever that appointment time is with yourself, you can just say, “I'm sorry, I already have an appointment at that time.” It can be that simple. I think the third one we want to leave you with, too, is to have a saying, or an affirmation, or some sort of quote that can help you get back onto task if you feel yourself thrown off during the day. Sometimes all you need is a simple reminder to just help you refocus.Michelle: Elements of living a healthy lifestyle come in various forms. Sometimes we don't have all the answers we need, and sometimes we don't even know that we have a need until we have important discussions.Scott: That's the inspiration behind why and what we do with Totality Living Well and helping others live a life of true balance in body, mindset, and spirit.Michelle: We love hearing your comments, questions, and feedback as you navigate your own health journey. We're grateful that you've taken this time to join us. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast through Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts.Scott: You can also follow us on Facebook or Instagram by following Totality Living Well.Michelle: And check out our website totalitylivingwell.com for other tips and customized health programs available.Scott: We'll see you next time.Michelle: Remember, keep your health front and center. It's priceless. In great health, always.

How do you determine rents for properties you’re thinking about buying? As an investor, are you going to get a return on your investment? If you don’t, then you could get behind every month. Clint Coons of Anderson Business Advisors talks to Scott Abbey of RentFax, who will tell you how to determine rents for your properties. So, when you make investment decisions, you’ll have a range to use to budget wisely. Highlights/Topics: Scott pulls data on properties from the Census Bureau to track indicators of positive vs. negative experiences and determine if he could sustain an income stream Scott makes sure to understand the risks involved when taking on a property to establish a reasonable expectation from a client’s perspective Quality of the location has a direct outcome regarding your income stream and understanding what rents need to be Scott looks at a certain area to determine the rent range; 77,000 census tracts are available to identify the neighborhood’s risk and rent range If your subject and comps are in the same demographic area, it’s likely that those comps will be more powerful, desirable, and accurate than those outside the demographic area Process involves including the square footage and number of bathrooms of subject and comparing them to comps; RentFax adjusts rents to compensate for differences Start at the high end of the predictable range, and then market through it over a few weeks by lowering rent, until you get worthwhile applications Condition of Subject: Some investors barely make changes/fixes, but others modernize and make it nice; take your subject to a higher level to charge more rent Season of Subject: Some seasons generate less traffic; market rent prices based on number of clients looking for a place to rent and the season Use RISC Index to identify the risk of your property; rent affordability becomes a major indicator or cause of failure to sustain a cash flow stream RentFax is helpful for you to buy outside your market and to find comfortable risk tolerances; it quickly offers critical data, appreciation rates, and demographic information Most people who self-manage tend to be below market; but if they fall far behind the market, then they’re not capturing the full benefits from their investment Past three years has seen a large growth in rents - a 20% gain; recently, rents have started to slow down Buying properties in high-risk areas with low-risk tolerances is an investment disaster; RentFax matches area risk, subject location, and client’s expectations/tolerances Resources RentFax (Use COONS15 code to get 15% off) Census Bureau RISC Index RETS Clint Coons Anderson Advisors Tax and Asset Protection Event Full Episode Transcript: Clint: Hi everyone, it’s Clint Coons here at Anderson Business Advisors and in this episode, we’re going to be discussing how you determine your rents for those properties you’re considering buying. As an avid real estate investor, I have over 100 properties across United States and many of these are single family homes. One of the issues we all face as investors is are we going to get that return on our investment? We’re taking capital, we’re tying it up in a property, and we’re anticipating then that property is going to put X amount of dollars back in my pocket. But if it doesn’t do that, then we could be in a situation where possibly we’re behind every month. There’s more month left at the end of the money when it comes to covering all of our expenses and we never want to be in that situation. It’s something that I’ve seen in the past with my own investing and I’ve seen a lot with our clients who have made purchases in markets that they thought they could get a certain return on, that their cap rate is going to be X and it turns out it was Y, and they realize they’ve made a mistake. What I wanted to do in this episode is bring on an expert who can show you how to determine what those market rents will be for your properties so then when you’re making your investment decisions, you know going into it what that range is going to be so you can budget accordingly. With that, I want to bring on Scott Abbey from RentFax. Scott, thanks for being on. Scott: Thank you, Clint. Clint: Tell us a little bit about yourself. Scott: I’m a property manager of 26 years. We managed properties at 450 single family homes in the Kansas City area and by night I am a daily geek. Clint: What does that mean, a daily geek? You just sit up all night long? I mean, what comes to mind here, you’re maybe sitting in your boxer shorts and a tank top, and you look at the computer, you’re drinking a beer. Scott: Not quite, but I raised that story because years ago as my business was just getting started, in fact, the year 2000, I was able to bring down free data information from the Census Bureau, and I started studying the differences between properties that I was having positive and negative results in, that were in close proximity to each other. Using the same manager and the same scoring techniques, same screening techniques, same collection techniques, I found that house A and house B didn’t necessarily perform the same consistently even if the management was the same. So, I pulled down data and data from the Census Bureau. That’s when the night time work came because I had to sort the data out by zip code and then find I had to build statistical models from my property inventory, and I started tracking things that would be indicators for when I had positive experience versus negative experience. That experience as I referred to is, was I able to sustain an income stream? How long was the sustainability of the income stream versus other properties in similar type neighborhoods? It was a very crude Excel spreadsheet that then went to a database, was able to create a scoring model between 0 and 100, and then compared it to all of the neighborhoods with the zip codes in the Kansas City area, and developed a comparative tool that said, “Neighborhood A will perform better than neighborhood B based on these demographic nuances.” Clint: And I assume it started working out for you. Did you see that your rental income started going up when you based all your investments on that? Scott: It took over 10 years of changing the sauce and finding the right algorithms, but I brought in a partner, Shane Sauer, who is an engineer by trade and who also managed properties at the time. We were able to put the tool on steroids and we tested it in seven or eight different markets. That was really the foundation of RentFax. What I, more than anything else selfishly, I wanted to make sure that when a new client came to me, I understood what the risks were of taking that property on so that I could establish a reasonable expectation from a client’s perspective. In real estate acquisition, location, location, location really is there for a reason. It is a critical part of the decision-making. When you try to quantify location with a realtor, it’s always vague and ambiguous. The quality of the location has a direct outcome in terms of what your income stream is and it also helps drive understanding what the rents need to be. Clint: Wow. There is a lot that went into putting this together when you started RentFax. How long have you been in business then? Scott: 26 years. Clint: 26 years. How many clients do you have right now would you say that are using it? Scott: Oh, wow. Well, RentFax hasn’t been in business for 26 years. My client base of my property management company—I have 450 doors—I don’t actually know how many clients are using RentFax right until it’s expanding all the time. Clint: Got it. What you’re doing then is that you’re looking at a certain area and you’re determining the rent range. I’ve got two questions. Number one, is this all across the United States, no matter where I’m investing you have data on those areas? Scott: Yes. There are 77,000 census tracts. We used to use zip codes, now we use census tracts. It’s a smaller area so it’s even more accurate. We have data for all census tracts for the risk of the neighborhood and the rent range. Now, I will tell you that when you’re in low density markets when you have a small number of rental properties, it’s hard to build a statistical model big enough to get accurate data. So, in those rare instances, if the data’s not there, we can’t provide an outcome. But those are very small in number. Clint: When you’re looking at a particular area to come up with these ranges, how do you determine that? You’re looking at what their current rental rates are for homes if people are listing them for rent? You don’t have to give me your whole secret sauce here but, kind of what’s in the details? What’s in the mix? Scott: We go out and we pull the most recent listings from the web and then they’re de-duped so that we’re not duplicating listings because listings get populated to a lot of different places. And then we look for the like type which is single family home or multi family. Our product is designed for residential that means four and less, and it’s either single family or it’s a multi family. Then it looks for the number of bedrooms. Then it brings in the closest group of comps that it can for the proximity of your subject. Then it give you those rents that are being charged. We take it a step further because there’s a lot of products out there that offer rent information but typically the range of rents that are offered are very wide. So, it’s not as helpful as it would be if we could bring the range down to a more manageable number. What we’ve learned is, is that if your subject and your comps are in the same demographic area, the likelihood of those comps being more powerful and more desirable, more accurate are higher than those that are outside your demographic area. The further you go away from your subject, the less accurate the comp is, so we look at distance and we weight the comps accordingly. We also do something that many don’t. We look at the square footage of your subject and compare it to the comps, and we look at the number of bathrooms, and then we adjust the rents up or down to compensate for differences in square footage and number of bathrooms, much the same as an appraiser would do. Clint: Wow. There’s a lot of information. Scott: And then we drive it into a 70% probability curve, and that brings your desired rent range into a fairly manageable number. What I’ve learned as managing properties for all these years is that no one can tell you exactly what rents are because it’s a function of how many competitors do you have at the moment, and how many customers there are at the moment. So, to pick a single number is generally flawed. What we suggest is you start at the high end of the predictable range and then market through that over a number of weeks by lowering your rent over time until you start getting good applications. Clint: You advise then if I was going to going into a certain market, say Kansas City, I should probably base my rent on the property I’m buying and what maybe the lower end, and then like you said, market it from the top end, and make sure my numbers take into consideration that I may end up at that low-end number. Is that advisable? Scott: Well, one question one would ask is the condition of your subject. A lot of the investors will barely put a bandaid on a purchase and others will go in and modernize and make them nice. So, the data that you’re getting is of the average market. Kind of get it? It’s somewhat driven by the economics of the market. But if you take your subject to a higher level of the market, then you want to be sensing the fact that you can charge more rent. Whereas if you look ugly at the street, you’re probably going to need to drive down the rent numbers. Also, like in Kansas City, we have seasons. We’re in a season now where the traffic is much lower. So during this time of year, I tend to market closer to the lower end to accommodate for the smaller number of clients that are going to be looking for a place to rent. Clint: Okay. With that in mind, let’s assume that I’m looking for property now in Kansas City. When you use your modeling, does it then break it down by month? If you’re going to start renting it in, say December, then you ought to expect to charge high end this amount, low end this amount, versus if you’re doing the same thing in June. Is that how— Scott: It doesn’t do that. You have to be sensitive to the fact that when year-end climates that have cold and hot, generally speaking, as a general statement across the United States, your March to August time frame is where most of your moving actually takes place. It’s even more exacerbated where you have cold weather because people are less likely to get out. I know here in Kansas City, January-February are just miserable periods of time. The number of people that want to move in January-February are pretty slow. Now I’ve had warm Januaries where we had good activity. As an investor, you have to be sensitive to those kinds of tactical things you want to consider. The other thing that I want to emphasize is that, when you’re looking at rents, it’s helpful to know the risk of your property because the RISC Index will tell you, “Is this a good property on the neighborhood in the city? Or is this not so good?” As you go up in a risk, what we find is that rent affordability becomes one of the major indicators or one of the major causes of failure to sustain a good cash flow stream. As you are in the lower realm of your economics, you want to start being very sensitive to affordability. Our system looks at your median income and what happens is, usually in a neighborhood, tenants are attracted to similar neighborhoods and see you have to be sensitive to the median income of your applicant, being sensitive to the rent affordability. The thing I tell you is as your rents go down in value, generally you see that the tenants that are renting from those properties, sensitivity to job interruptions is greater and if they’re accustomed to getting five hours overtime a week and that’s cut off, that could have an impact on your ability to get paid. I can also tell you that, particularly in the lower economic areas, utilities become a huge part of the rent. In winter time, for example, if you’re renting a property for $800, it’s not unreasonable to see utility bills that represent 40% of that bay. When you’re looking at that total rent cost of utilities and rent and then you compare that to the gross income of your applicant, it provides a reason for you to consider driving your rents down more on the context of preserving your tenants over long periods of time versus the money that you hope to make from having a short-term tenancy. Clint: The program itself, when you start using it, does it gives you a profile of a typical tenant in that area? Scott: If gives you a profile of the demographics of that area. It provides a lot of information for investor-making decisions about where to buy. For example, if you’re an investor from out-of-area and you’re coming to Kansas City, for example, and you find 2-3 bedroom houses comparatively, and you’re looking at the rents in there reasonably comparable, but you look at the demographic score that we have and the risk score, I would tell you, you want to pick the house that has the better score because that house will, over time, perform better at providing a steady income stream. Clint: Okay, so then what I’ve seen, and correct me if I’m wrong here, if I have two addresses of two different properties I’m looking at, I would go to your site, log in, and then I put in the address of the property that I’m looking to acquire, and run the report on that, and then do the same thing on the other property or do you put in multiple and then compare them? Scott: If you want to load up multiples, you can. But generally, most people, they’re looking at two or three. You just enter one and you study it, and then yet another and study it, and yet another and study it. It is a fast way for you to have some really critical data because it shows appreciation rates, it will give you demographic information that’s helpful to learn. What I’ve learned with clients that have been using it for a while, they have an investment that works for them. They’ve got A-B-C house on such-and-such address and the thing just consistently works for them. Then they’ll run a RentFax on that property and understand what that RISC Index is. And they’ll look for like index numbers or above to buy property because an index of 33 in fill-in-the-blank, Philadelphia will have similar results of Atlanta, Georgia, if they fit the same index number. It’s a very helpful tool for you to buy outside of your market and to find the risk tolerances that you’re comfortable with. I have some clients have loved the high risk, which generally reflects a perceived high cash flow. I have other clients that are risk-inverse. They are at the end of their run and they want to preserve and protect. They want higher risk numbers because generally in the higher risk number, you have less yield but you have greater probability of appreciation. Clint: Got it. This is for people who are considering in purchasing property. They definitely want to run the property through the analysis. How about for somebody who already owns property you’re considering? All right, my tenant is going to be moving out the end of the month and I’m wondering now, should I move up my rents $500 a month? I can see someone wanting to run their own existing properties here. They’re to see where they should peg their new rental amount at. Scott: Right. What I’ve learned in managing property is that most people that self-manage tend to be below market. They usually are by design which, at a strategic level, I agree with being below market but if you fall far behind the market, then you’re really not capturing the full benefits you can from your investment. What we do on our renewals, is since we’re 90 days away from a renewal date, we’ll pull a report, we’ll send it to our client and we’ll make a recommendation of what we should do with rents. And then after he gives us a blessing on that, we send it to the tenant and we show the tenant that, “Look, your property is under market. Although we’re raising the rent, we’re not raising it as high as we could and if you go out and look for another house, here is the market.” Over the last three years, we’ve seen a large growth in rents. Now, I’m sensing recently that those rents are beginning to hit a slowdown point but there’s been 20% gain over the last 3-4 years in rent values and a lot of self-managed properties leave money on the table and not keeping those numbers up. You can see the report justified to the tenant. Clint: I’ve talked to a lot of investors and they see if the market slows down, that somehow that’s going to impact their rental income, personally, what I experienced when the market crashed in real estate back in 2008-2009, my rents went up considerably because people were displaced, they didn’t have houses, they couldn’t qualify for loans, and they had to become renters. That gave me an opportunity, of course, to make a little more money. Then once the properties have worked their way through and people started getting back into buying homes, I actually start reduction in my rental income because that pool of tenants started to shrink up some. Having, I think, that kind of data as well, especially now I think would really really important, given the fact that interest rates have gone up, and you’re starting to see a decline in purchasers now of homes. I was talking to a title company, an officer just the other day and she told me that they were getting 100 a day. And now, they dropped to 70 since the rates have gone up per home. Scott: I think there’s some surprise pressure, too. In my market, a house going to market and there being multiple bids and no mobile offers. It was a bidding war. Some of them would get to close and they wouldn’t approve this. I think that frenzy is behind us for now. My sense right now on RETS, in my market at least, is that I want to be careful to overstep the market in rents. We had our foot on the slow go during some of the economic troubles to keep the rents and to keep the rents affordable because I didn’t want to lose tenants. Then the rents went up and then we put the foot on the gas, but we’re now pulling our foot back off the raising of the rents because we’re seeing some pushback on rents and we’re seeing some affordability questions. Not everybody’s boat is rising at the same rate, and again, it depends on the economics of your property. You talk to someone that has a rent that rents for $2500 and you talk to others that rent for $750, that’s a whole different economic group. You have to be sensitive to both, though. Clint: I think what’s unique is you built this to sound like for yourself, initially, for your properties, and then you saw there’s an opportunity that other people can take advantage of it because it helped you with your business. Is that a fair statement? Scott: It is to an extent. I have to say selfishly when I first developed it, I didn’t want to have to drive to every house to look at the neighborhood before I accepted it. There are neighborhoods in Kansas City that, at the time, I wouldn’t accept to manage because the neighborhood was so difficult. But subsequently, as I started investing more and more of my passion into the product, over the years I’ve seen so many people come into my business, sit down, and said, “I want to hand you, I want you to manage this property for me,” and the first thing I’d do, I would, of course, pull a RISC Index. I found that a lot of people were buying properties in high-risk areas with low-risk tolerances. It turned into an investment disaster because the risk of the property area didn’t match the tolerances of the investor and the investor would burn out after two or three tenants. It was important to me to help match the risk of the area, the location of the subject property to the expectations and the tolerances of the client that was making the purchase. Clint: Yeah, because you don’t want to have pissed-off clients. Scott: I’ll share a story. A little lady and her son walks into my office and sat in my conference room. He had taken her retirement money and paid in cash for a house, or was about to pay cash for a house that was in a very high-risk area. I might work but the greater probability is it wasn’t going to work than it was going to work. He just kept telling her, “It’s going to be okay. It’s going to be okay,” and I ran the report and I gave it to both of them. When she saw the risk, when she saw the demographics, and she saw the crime factors and such, it had a big impact on her decision on whether she was going to give grandson the $75,000 he talked her into to buy this house. I can repeat story after story. A couple of retired teachers came in with three houses they have packaged up. They wanted zero risk but they were told that these were a good deal and they were low cost and how can I go wrong. They were in a war zone in our city. Clint: Yeah. They didn’t get out and visited the properties at all? Scott: They did but unless you have an experienced eye, you don’t recognize some of those things. Clint: Correct. Scott: And not everybody that goes into real estate investing has the training and has the knowledge they should. They make bad investments and oftentimes they’ll blame it on the realtor that sold it to them, or they blame it on the manager that manages it, but in fact, part of the problem was the due diligence they did on the front side of the acquisition and understanding where they are in terms of their investment protocol, like, “Do I have enough cash to sustain three months of vacancy if something terrible would happen? Do I have enough cash to sustain a new roof? Am I comfortable with what appears to be great cash flow but can often be nine months tenancies where there’s eviction every two years?” Those are things that can happen in the higher risk areas. And then, just making sure that there’s a good match there so the investor gets out of the experience what he had hoped for. Clint: And this is why when I first came across your company, I was so intrigued by it because we have a lot of clients that are on the coast that buy in the Midwest because it’s affordable. You can’t get the returns on the coast right now that you can in the Midwest. But the problem I see is that they hook up with these people who sell properties, that are buying them and then rehabbing them and then selling them as packaged deals to these investors, and the investors don’t even know what they’re buying. All they see is the numbers like, “Oh my gosh. That house is only $85,000. That same house out in California would be $500,000. Give me four.” Scott: That’s it. I’ve seen it for 20+ years. That’s one of the motivating factors that drawn all those late nights in developing a tool that not only can I use for my clients but can be used universally for investors to make a good match between the investment risk of the neighborhood because in real estate, it’s about location. Location has driven so many other factors that impact the asset as it ages and the tenant that it attracts. Clint: Got it. I know this that you agreed to give us special discount to Anderson clients that come to RentFax. We negotiated that so we can get 15% off if they go to our site, they go through the length that we’ll have up there for them and then they could take advantage of all the services you have to offer. I want to thank you for that. Scott: Yes. What’s important is that the folks use it and study it. The product I suggest the most is the Rent Package because it has a detailed risk report, it has a rent report, and also shows the historic vacancy report. When you look at those three factors, that really gives you most the tools you need for making decisions about what properties to buy and how to manage those properties. Clint: Great. Yes everyone, when you go to the link, you go to the site, make sure you put in the coupon code COONS15 in there and that’s going to get you the discount on those reports that you’re going to be running. Scott, I want to thank you for coming on today. This has been a great podcast. I know a lot of people are going to get great information out of this and they’re going to be coming to your site to start running those risk analysis because those are things that many people do not realize are so important in making an investment decision. Anything else you like to add? Scott: I wish everybody good luck with their investing. Thank you very much, Clint. Clint: All right, Scott. Take care. Thanks.

S.F. Lighthouse is Creating Opportunities While Enchanted Hills Camp Rises from the Ashes – Meet Will Butler – Tactile Maps Anyone?   Full Transcript Below   It was an honor to meet up with Will Butler, the Communications Director of the San Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired. Will gives us an update on the Enchanted Hills Camp located in Napa and people are returning and continuing the tradition that started over 6 decades ago. Jeff talks about the wood working classes he will be teaching along side of George Wurtzel and Brian Buhrow for beginers and a second session for advance wood workers. Scott Blanks gives us a review of the Tactile Maps and how they can provide added information when mind mapping one’s location. The Lighthouse of SF will soon make it possible to order your maps on-line. Will tells us how to subscribe and find out more about theSan Francisco Lighthouse for the Blind and visually Impairedand Enchanted Hills Camp. You can subscribed to their newsletterand follow them on Facebookand follow on Twitter@Lighthouse-SF You can find out more about Aira on the web at www.Aira.io Image of the Aira Logo Your Life, Your Schedule, Right Now. If you want to know more about Aira and the services they provide, check them out on the web and become an Aira Explorer today! www.Aira.io Using augmented reality, Aira connects people who are blind or low vision to a trained professional agent who is dedicated to further enhancing their everyday experience – completely hands-free assistance at the touch of a button. Thank you for listening! You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities On the web at www.BlindAbilities.com Send us an email Get the Free Blind Abilities App on the App Store. Get the Free blind Abilities App on the Google Play Store Full Transcript: S.F. Lighthouse is Creating Opportunities While Enchanted Hills Camp Rises from the Ashes – Meet Will Butler – Tactile Maps Anyone?   Speaker 1: Welcome to the Blind Abilities coverage of the 2018 National Federation of the Blind convention, sponsored by Aira.   Speaker 2: Aira, your life, your schedule, right now. Jeff Thompson: In this coverage of the National Federation of the Blind 2018 Orlando, Florida, I meet up with a virtual friend of mine. I've conversed with him many times. His name is Will Butler. He's the Communications Director at the San Francisco LightHouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired. Such a great opportunity at these conventions to meet up with people you've only virtually met. I was really honored to be able to finally meet up with Will Butler and talk about the San Francisco LightHouse, the opportunities and events that they've created out in San Francisco not only for California but people worldwide. Jeff Thompson: I also met up with Scott Blanks, and he gave a little description of the TMAPS that they were giving away at the convention.   Speaker 2: Aira, a description of life. Jeff Thompson: Welcome to Blind Abilities, I'm Jeff Thompson. I'm down here in Orlando, Florida Convention 2018 and I came across the San Francisco LightHouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired booth. And I ran into Will Butler and he's the Communications Director. How you doing, Will? Will Butler: Excellent, how you doing, Jeff? Jeff Thompson: I'm doing good thank you. Can you- Will Butler: Finally face to face with the great Jeff Thompson. Jeff Thompson: I don't know about the great part but I'm here and it's really exciting to be here. It's really hot down here. Will Butler: Well, you got to wear a sweater inside because you're going to freeze inside. Jeff Thompson: Oh yeah. Well in the northern part of California it doesn't really get this hot right? Will Butler: Every year it's hotter and hotter up there. But where it really gets hot is out in Napa. Jeff Thompson: Yes up on Veeder Mountain where the Enchanted Hills camp part of San Francisco LightHouse is. Will Butler: That's right, yeah. We have our camp out there in the hills of the Wine country and it's, gosh, I don't know in its 68th year I think. And it almost was its last year earlier this fall because the fires that came through Northern California came and ripped through the area and tore down about half of our camp, including all the cabins where the kids stay every year. So we are just barely recovered from that and we're lucky enough to be able to launch a camp season again for June. Jeff Thompson: Yeah. The doors are open up there. Will Butler: They are, they are indeed and there are a lot of blind kids and families who are really happy about that because they didn't want to miss a year. Some people haven't missed a year in generations. Jeff Thompson: Oh, that's awesome. All the way from Africa. There's people coming from Poland, people from Australia are volunteering up there. Will Butler: I hear you're going to spend a couple of weeks up there. Jeff Thompson: I'll be up there with George Wurtzel. Woodworking for the blind, they hold their annual event and Enchanting Hills does such a great job of that where we go up there, we have a beginners class and then we have a advanced woodworkers class. I'll be up there from the 6th starting with the music camp that you guys run up there. That's great opportunity for people to be- Will Butler: Playing some music, running some power tools. You're a pretty hands on guy, huh? Jeff Thompson: I worked at Blind Incorporated when I went there as a student they gave me a click ruler and I was able to figure it out. It all came back to me so fast that they hired me to teach it and from there on it's just been fun to do stuff that people really didn't expect me to do. Will Butler: What do you think about maps? Jeff Thompson: Maps? That's what you guys got here, right? Will Butler: Yeah. Do you want to see what we got here at the table? Jeff Thompson: Sure. Will Butler: Here, come on over. Okay so what we got here what we're showing off at the convention in particular this year is TMAP. And TMAP are our Tactile Map Automated Production. One of the big things we do at LightHouse in the map lab is we make maps for people to order. Like someone would say, "I need a map of my neighborhood, I need a map of my whatever." And we'll turn it into a tactile graphic that they can feel and use to get around. But we figured that's not really super scalable because it's just our time and resources. So we created software that actually allows you to type an address in and print with an embosser auto print a tactile map on demand. Jeff Thompson: Really. Will Butler: Yeah. In some ways if you have access to an embosser it's like the Google Maps experience to be able to like just type an address in and get an aerial view of the area around your point of interest. And really get to know an area by exploring rather than turn by turn directions. Jeff Thompson: Well, I remember when I first lost some eyesight and I was trying to draw these mental maps. I always wanted something that I could put my finger on and actually get an idea of what the big picture looks like. Will Butler: Yeah. Yeah, well I don't know, do you want a map of your neighborhood? They're free. Jeff Thompson: Sure. Will Butler: Okay. Jeff Thompson: So this is something that you offer all in San Francisco as well? Will Butler: Yeah and actually pretty soon you're going to be buy these on demand maps from us. You'll be able to just go on the LightHouse website, type your address in and we'll send you a map wherever you want. Jeff Thompson: What website is that? Will Butler: That's lighthouse-sf.org. Jeff Thompson: That's really great. I was feeling these yesterday. I found Market Street on San Francisco on that you are here button. It was really good. So what else has San Francisco LightHouse offer to people in California? Well wait, I shouldn't say California because I've been out there three years in a row and I'm from Minnesota. Will Butler: Right, exactly. Yeah we definitely love the idea that people are starting to come from all over the country and all over the world to take advantage of the services that we offer and the fun programs that we have. We've got these dorm style short term residences now in our San Francisco building, which house 29 people at a time. And they're actually quite nice dorms. They're better than your college dorm for sure. And so people can come out and for immersion classes and week long retreats and what not. And really stay with us and kind of get immersed in whatever the program is. Will Butler: So we offer employment immersions for youth ages 16 to 24 every summer. The youth stay with us for three weeks and they get job experience in the community, in the San Francisco area. They get to go to work for a few days out of the week. They have workshops, and then culminates with a conference all together. They really get to bond over that over a period of a few weeks. And then we have also similar youth employment programming throughout the year for anyone in the Bay area or anyone who can make it out on the weekends. Jeff Thompson: And people can get that newsletter from the LightHouse. I get one once a week maybe. Will Butler: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah we affectionately call it LightHouse Lately where we just update folks on what's been going on. It's usually about four things every week. It is about our programs but it's also about things that I think would appeal to people globally in the blindness community. It's where we might give you the latest update about the Holman prize. It's where we might talk about new initiatives or accessibility related. Advancements that have been made, or projects that we've worked on. We worked on a project recently with Microsoft called Soundscape which was a really cool app that helps blind people navigate just with sound and 3D beacons. And the Holman prize, we're about to announce the winners of the Holman prize next week. Jeff Thompson: I know I'm excited. I watched the countdown. You had the I believe it was 50 and then down to the 10 plus the one. Will Butler: That's right so we have three winners just like last year. Jeff Thompson: Is that embosser? Will Butler: Yeah let's go over there and listen to that embosser.   Scott:she was really well prepared. Will Butler: What are we printing over here?   Scott: Alright. Well thanks Jeff for getting us on. We are just finishing a TMAP. Street map for someone here at the table. I'm not going to give you the whole address. This is a free giveaway that we're doing here at the convention basically is just a tactile street map. What we sell in our San Francisco store, and stop me if Will's already covered this, is a package that includes three scales of the address that you request. And not just tactile but also print. So we want to make sure that everyone has an opportunity to benefit from these maps. So you'll get those three scales, the key and an intro page that gives you a simple description of what you are about to lay your hands on or your eyes. Will Butler: Describe what the embosser just spat out for you and what you're doing?   Scott: Yeah, so the embosser is a tractor-fed embosser. And what we have is two pages. The first page is a map with the address at the top, the streets, and abbreviations at the edge of the map. And then the second page is the map key which gives you the abbreviation, the full street name and the directionality so east/west, north/south, northeast/southwest, etc. And so then I'm just going to staple it up and hand it over to the lucky person who requested it and they'll have a little piece of their world unlocked and maybe grab a little more independence because of it. Will Butler: How long did it take you to print that?   Scott: Oh, from the time we got the address to the finished product that was maybe three minutes. Jeff Thompson: Three minutes.   Scott: We mean it. On demand is the real thing. ' Speaker 6: Thank you.   Scott: Your welcome. Jeff Thompson: Thank you, Scott.   Scott: Handed it off. Will Butler: Thanks Scott. Jeff Thompson: If people want to find out more about San Francisco LightHouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired out there in California how would they get a hold of you? Will Butler: Yeah, obviously you can just type LightHouse on Facebook and we're one of the first ones that comes up. There are other LightHouses around the country but we're the one in the Bay area. You can find Enchanted Hills Camp on Facebook. They have a very active camp related Facebook page. And you can go to our website at lighthouse-sf.org. Lighthouse-sf.org and explore everything there. If you want to learn more about TMAPs you can go to lighthousesf.org/tmap. If you want to just go directly to subscribe for our newsletter you can go to lighthouse-sf.org/subscribe. Jeff Thompson: Alright. We've been talking to Will Butler he is the Communications Director out at San Francisco LightHouse for the Blind and Visually Impaired San Francisco. Thank you very much for taking the time. Will Butler: Thank you Jeff, it's always be a dream of mine to be on your podcast. I appreciate it. Jeff Thompson: Thank you. While waiting for my map I had to ask the embosser, what kind of embosser are you using?   Speaker 7: The one we brought today that's a ViewPlus Columbia. Jeff Thompson: So you must be pretty confident that you would bring it to the convention.   Speaker 7: Yeah that's exactly why we brought it. We've been doing this grind for a while. The last few conferences we're actually doing swell papers so we were bringing PIAFs and Zychems, but those things are fragile. They don't like to travel, they don't like to be handled on the road. They break. So we tried this instead. They're inexpensive, seems to be reliable, just cranking them out.   Speaker 7: Back at the shop we're actually using a ViewPlus EmFuse which is pretty esoteric because it does the ink print as well as the braille. But those are really big units. You're not going to want to pack that up in a road case and bring it on tour. Jeff Thompson: This one seems like something that you could move around a little bit.   Speaker 7: Oh yeah, they're light, they're small. It's designed for the home pretty much.   Speaker 8: Alright Jeff, I have your map for you. Jeff Thompson: Yeah exactly. Alright.   Speaker 2: Aira, independence like never before.   [Music]  [Transition noise]  -When we share -What we see -Through each other's eyes...   [Multiple voices overlapping, in unison, to form a single sentence]   ...We can then begin to bridge the gap between the limited expectations, and the realities of Blind Abilities. Jeff Thompson: For more podcasts with a blindness perspective check us out on the web at www.blindabilities.com. On Twitter @blindabilities. Download our app from the app store, Blind Abilities, that's two words. Or send us an email at info@blindabilities.com. Thanks for listening.      

Elliot (@Yankeegunner) is joined by Tim (@Stillberto) and Clive (@Clivepafc) to discuss Mesut Ozil's problems back home, Alex Iwobi's new contract, Aaron Ramsey's contract situation and the Atletico Madrid game in Singapore. Scott (@Oh_that_crab) stops by to give a statistical analysis of Alex iwobi and Tim provides a sneak peak of his new book "Royal Arsenal - Champions of the South." It's all packed into this bumper addition of the Arsenal Vision Post Match Podcast. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In today's Arsenal Vision Post Match Podcast Elliot (@YankeeGunner), Clive (@ClivePAFC) and Scott (@Oh_that_crab) discuss the lack of Arsenal players in the National team, Lacazette’s return to the squad and how to fit him back into the team, Arsene Wenger’s quotes to beIN SPORTS, a look at future managerial replacements and where they rank, gaining confidence in the league vs resting players for CSKA. This and plenty more in this week's Arsenal Vision Post Match Podcast. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Ban the Banhammer - Episode 28 Scott and Randy discuss the (mis)use of the various forms of the "ban" tool, and provide alternative techniques. Show Links It's Almost Impossible to Rehabilitate an Online Troll, Steve Brock Director of Moderation Services at Mzinga Building Web Reputation Systems SMC Epsiode 14: LinkedIn's Scarlet Letter #CMAD presents: Modern Moderation: Moving Beyond Trolls and Ban Hammers (stream)Streamed live on Jan 26, 2016 - Join us to talk tech with Justin Isaf, to ramble about reputations with F. Randall Farmer, to ponder proactive tasks with Sarah Hawk, to advocate for automation with Darren Gough, and to learn the legal aspects with Aurelia Butler-Ball. Transcript Randy: Ban the ban hammer. Scott: What? Randy: Ban the ban hammer. Scott: Wait a minute. We gotta talk about this. Randy: Welcome to the Social Media Clarity Podcast. 15 minutes of concentrated analysis and advice about social media and platform and product design. Scott: So in this episode we're going to focus on what seems to be the moderator's tool of choice, the ban. Randy: And how it is, most often in our experience, the wrong tool. Scott: Yeah, it could be the right tool in the right circumstance, but it's mostly misapplied. Randy: Yeah, if you're reaching for it first, it's probably the wrong tool, but we'll talk about that in detail. We could set this up by talking a little bit about our experiences encountering other people talking about the ban hammer. Scott, you find a wonderful reference post. Do you want to tell us a little bit about it? Scott: Sure. So, this is just an example. Steve Brock who's the director of moderation services at Mzinga that talked about the difficulties of rehabilitating online trolls. But in it he's talking a lot about bans. How to identify trolls, how to ban, what different bans are, and how to apply them, and whether or not they are effective. So this is a good example of how a lot people tend to think about dealing with misbehavior in online communities. Randy: Although, we're going to be picking a little bit on Mr. Brock, by no means is he unique in most of these positions. In fact, were going to talk a little bit about how each point has its own challenges and each point carries forward the error of the previous one, and it leads you to a place this is both undesirable and expensive. Scott: So what are the steps, Randy Randy: The steps are first you identify the troll, figure out who it is you're wanting to take action on. Someone who is doing harm to your site. You perma-ban them. We'll explain the different bans in a few minutes. The idea is to kick them off the site and make their identity no longer accessible. He also suggests removing all content, doesn't mean they're all bad. And if they return with a new account, immediately ban that as soon as you detect that. You could try hell-banning. This is number five, he says, "But they'll find out." He's actually right about that, and then he says, "Well, the abuse will get worse once they figure out you're pulling tricks on them." It turns out, number six, you have to assume that they can't be reformed, so you've got to stay vigilant. You have to stay on it all the time. And for his final step he says, "Therefore, you need 24 7 coverage and so you need to hire enough moderators to cover your site." It's our contention that this entire list that leads to outsourced 24 7 coverage of your site and a constant battle with removing people follows from errors starting at the very beginning of the list. Scott: But before we get into that, let's actually define a few of the terms that have come up already. Perma-ban, it's a ban that is based on the identity, banning the account. There's no fixed time out. That's it. You ban them, they're gone. You can ban based on their account. You can hit their IP address. You could try to ban them based on credit card so they can't start a new account if you're a paid account. Also, there's kind of this nuclear option of removing all of the content. Regardless of whether some of the content was actually good, you ban the person, therefore, their content must also go too. So, that's the perma-ban. Randy: I'll talk a little bit about hell-banning, which I mentioned earlier. This is also known as shadow-banning, stealth-banning, or ghost-banning. It's strange. It's hiding content from the community except for the creator of the content, the person you're hell-banning. The idea is, you'll see that you posted, but no one else will see the post. Meant to be discouraging, or meant to just let you burn out your energy. It goes all the way back to The Well. The Well had a method for doing this where people would actually selectively stop reading content from other people, and this led to destroyed threads that no one what was going on in the thread because you could never tell who was actually reading what. I want to quickly, even though I know were just making a list, I want to go ahead and shoot hell-banning in the head- Scott: Yup. Randy: So we don't have to talk about it much more. Because this involves a bunch of complicated technology, which is trivially defeated by anyone who is malicious and confusing to those who aren't. Scott: Yup. Randy: The community doesn't know what they're missing, and when someone knows someone and talks about it and they find out they're hell-banned, you end up with the community talking about hell-banning, not whatever your content is. Scott: Right. Randy: Scott and I are both unified. There's a lot of moderators like us. Do not waste any time on technology to hide from your user that their behavior is unacceptable. Scott: It wastes a lot of time because it leads inevitably to two results. Steve Brock calls it out perfectly. They'll find out, and then they just abuse even more and even harder because they feel like they've been cheated in some way. And then the other one is anyone else who isn't hell-banned or ghost-banned gets paranoid about whether or not they've been ghost-banned. If any technical glitch occurs, then they suddenly think that some action has been taken against them. This is not healthy for your community. You'll spend time assuaging people of their paranoia then you will building the actual community and trust. It destroys trust. So those are two types of bans. There's another type of ban, if you will, and it's the time out. It's a temporary suspension from being able to contribute in some particular way. This breaks up into a couple of ways. You can limit somebody's permission where they can't post, or they can't reply. You can even limit their ability to log into the system, but the idea is that it's a time out, so that you can communicate with the person. Or you can degrade their service. Randy, you have some good stories about degrading service. Randy: There are often reputations systems for detecting egregious behaviors, and I'm talking about is specifically, the spamming behavior. I worked for Yahoo for five years. When they would detect either a mail spamming bot, or a bot hitting the search engine to get results to use to make SCO, what they didn't do is ban IP addresses. What they did instead was build a reputation database and degraded service. What that meant was, when a request would come in from a highly suspected spamming robot, they would serve it, they would just serve it very slowly. This is kind of a low level taxing. What happens if you ban them all, we've seen one of the few days yahoo was actually down, they made a change to their interface for search, and all the spamming robots in the world that were hitting yahoo started failing instantly. They were getting instant errors back from the web servers. This was creating a denial of service attack, as a result of all the robots who were never used to failing now retrying instantaneously. So hundreds of thousands of robots were now sending hundreds of requests per minute. Scott: Yeah, that's bad. Randy: They put back the interface because there was this kind of detante in degraded service design. Scott: So that's not the same thing as ghost-banning, that's just degrading somebody's service because it's targeted. Spammers want to be able to spread their spam as quickly as possible and move on to the next target, and if you slow them down, you're actually costing them money. Randy: Spamming behavior is different from whatever trolling behavior is. The reason we say ban the banhammer is because cases like we've outlined here are missing the key point. The category error is the difference between troll and trolling. The difference between being a spammer, a person, and spamming. We really have a problem with online social contributions. It isn't people, it's behaviors. The only thing you can really evaluate is the content. It's trolling that's the problem, not trolls. Scott: Right. It's really important, and we've talked about his in the past, and I talk about this when I give workshops, you focus on the behavior, not on the person. In Sociology, there's a thing called the fundamental attribution error, and that's basically when you take a behavior and you ascribe that as a personality trait to a person. So if somebody does something that is a violation of your terms of service, they post something that is borderline racist, they are not necessarily a racist. They are not necessarily a troll. They've done something and then that's a specific behavior that can be addressed as opposed to simply assuming this is who they are and they'll never ever be different. You do wind up in the exactly that idea of trolls can never be reformed if you make certain assumptions that their behavior is tied intrinsically to their personality. We just know that's not true. Randy: We even know that ID's aren't people. Back to the post, the person comes back over and over with multiple ID's. So an ID banning solution is no solution at all. But sometimes, it's the reverse. Sometimes there's no person. When we start talking about spamming, the spammer, the mythical person who is doing the spamming is not reachable. He's got a hundred thousand robots doing stuff. You don't even know where he is. You don't know how to reach him. You can't back through those robots. It's the robots that are exhibiting the behavior. So you have to deal with the robots in that case. In the case of trolling, you have to deal with the trolling posts. What are the things that are causing a problem. What are against your terms of service or your community guidelines. Scott: We're saying ban the banhammer. When you're reaching that as your first tool, it's probably the wrong thing to reach for, but there are times when we do need to use this kind of a tool in specific instances, and spamming is one of those instances. Scott: Let's define it a little bit better, because a lot of people will call all kinds of things spamming, including just an off color comment. Scott: They have zero or even negative quality to your community. They have absolutely no contribution at all. They're not even part of the discussion. There's a lot of them, or they're coming really fast. There's not a human behind those particular posts. At that particular point, what we're doing is we're throttling the input. Instead of treating it as a community problem. We're treating it as a bandwidth problem. Randy: And bans are not my first tool for dealing with that. My first tool for dealing with that is content hiding, described at the end of my book, "Building Web Reputation Systems." In the final chapter we talk about how we enabled users on Yahoo Answers to mark items, such as spam, and we started to trust them. We came up with a method by which we could trust them and we could literally, within 30 seconds of when a piece of spam would come up, it would be hidden from the network. What hidden means is kind of the opposite of hell-banning. That item disappears for everybody, and a notice is sent back to the author, and this deals with that problem, which is if the author is just a robot, the author can't mitigate it. You won't be sending back a note saying, "No, no, no, this is my real content. I got ganged up on," or something. This is why, when we turned on this mechanism on Yahoo Answers, spamming vanished, literally within two weeks. The spammers picked up and they left and they went somewhere else. Scott: And that's because you were using the crowd to surgically remove the bad content. Randy: Yes. So the point there is there was no banning of the user account. It wasn't necessary. The user account became inactive because it no longer could successfully post. Scott: You didn't have to ban anybody. They abandoned their effort. Randy: That same process is used on accounts that are more tightly tied to people, the people who care about their postings. If they have them reported using the same mechanism, not for spamming, but for tastelessness, or some breaking of the rules. The same mechanism will trigger. The content could be hidden and they would receive a note explaining to them what the community gave them as feedback about what needs to change, and they could change it. They weren't banned. The problem with the ban is when it does tie to a person, it's an ending. It's an invitation either to an escalation or an ending. It's the last thing you should ever do if you do it. If the first thing you do is ban someone, they can't correct the behavior, and you come off very poorly. Scott: It's a slap in the face. Randy: The customer lost forever. Scott: At Schwab Learning, I had the ability to ban people, but we never did. We dealt with spam by an escalation process. It would evaluate what came in, and I would either pull the content, or I would hold the content, but I would always contact the person. I had different levels of contact. I had the, "Oh, you made a mistake. What you wrote looks like spam. I'd love to hear more about you." And so that's not an ending. I was opening up a bigger beginning. "Tell me more. Please participate more, and prove to me that this isn't just spam, but it looks like spam, so I'm worried about it." Then, there was the self-promoters. There was this gray area about solicitation in that particular community. So we'd have some people who were very well meaning, and would make their own products, and would want to promote them to other parents, and I would say, "Hey, you know, I'm really sorry but self promotion is not okay, but if you want to talk about other things, and you want to promote this on your profile, when you talk about other things on our community, people will see your profile, and then they'll see what you're trying to advertise. We're giving you that space to be able to do that. Then there was, "That's it. You're a spammer. I've pulled your content. You violated my terms of service. Please don't come back. I've canceled things." That always gave a chance for somebody to give me a response back. We didn't have a huge amount of spam, but invariably if it was that bad, nobody responded. But I would usually get some kind of response from the other messages from anything from, "Oops, I'm sorry," to "How dare you." We took it from there. But that was a discussion. Randy: Yeah. So what you want is beginnings, right? You want dialogues, as much as you can afford them. If you're going to pay people to moderate, they should be having conversations, not just destroying them. Scott: Ideally. Unfortunately, a lot of moderation services aren't really set up that way. They're set up to remove content based on terms of service. It's difficult to find moderation services that you can spend the money, to take the time, to help actually foster communities. It's a shame. Randy: It's mostly a scaling problem. If you've got user generated content in great quantity, as I mentioned earlier, if you're going to invest in tools, don't invest in hell-banning. Invest instead in customer feedback so that the users can tell each other how to behave and reinforce that behavior. That's one way to increase the leverage you get out of your paid moderation people so they can spend time with specific cases that need their attention. If the community is keeping the new kid who shows up and doesn't know how to behave from posting a crappy question or answer on Stack Overflow, then you don't need paid moderators. In fact, Stack Overflow is one of the largest, richest communities with the highest quality content of it's type in the world and it has very, very few top level moderators. All moderation tasks are actually done by any contributor who cares enough to generate enough content of enough quality on the site. If you ever want to see what a site looks like when it doesn't live with a banhammer as it's first line of defense, Stack Overflow or any of the Stack Exchange servers are really interesting to show how they incrementally give authority to you as you succeed in contributing to the community. Scott: At Schwab Learning, there was a point where I started to teach the other community members exactly what I was doing. I decided there was a point where I said, "I'm just going to be transparent about this, and start doing this in the public." Especially when it was the nice stuff, and started showing people how I approached potential spammers by addressing their behavior and saying, "Hey, maybe this is a mistake. We'd like to hear more from you." The community picked up on it. I was no longer the first line of defense against spam. The community became the first line of defense. What they would do is they would engage with anyone who looked like it was spam, and they would try to talk to them and draw them out, and if they weren't able to draw them out, then they would bump it up to me and say, "I think this person's actually trying to spam us." Randy: I do consulting on social media product design, and discussions about moderation are a critical part of what I consult on. So new clients often give me administrator access, or moderator access to their communities so that I can see what's going on behind the scenes. One of my clients, I was looking around for moderation information and I discovered a profile for a user, and they had a field on the profile that the administrator's could see that said how often they'd been banned. This person had been banned six times. This is the example of the banhammer going insane. These are perma-bans. You prevent them from participating and then apparently, they could appeal, and then you could put them back on, and then they ban them again for similar behaviors and so on. The banhammer is the wrong tool. In fact, every offense was the same, and it was a minor offense. Technology changes to the software to discourage that behavior that would have been more effective in changing the behavior. Scott: So we're saying ban the banhammer and we've been giving hints at things to do instead, ways to think about behavior online that won't cause you to think, "I've got to use that banhammer right away." And so, let's get real detailed and talk about exactly what you can do instead of using the banhammer. Randy: Number one, start by defining the behaviors you want to encourage and the ones you're trying to discourage from your contributors in your community. This should be baseline for choosing the actions you take going forward. Scott: These behaviors are not people. Yes, you have your community guidelines, but understand that if somebody violates a community guideline you don't punish the person. You give them an opportunity to correct the behavior. Randy: Amen. So based on your available resources, you can either develop tools to facilitate the community marking the content, to give feedback privately to the contributor, so that they know they should make some changes. Scott: Giving them a chance means that you're focusing on the content that they're producing. If a piece of content is clearly violating your terms of service, or a piece of content is clearly being generated by a bot, or it's clearly a spam going off to somewhere else, or it's illegal, then yes, you're going to want to remove the content. Randy: If you're at scale, you need the tools you need to find them. Sometimes your community is small, and a personal conversation is the right choice. Other times, your community is huge and you have to have the tools to scale or you will never solve the problem. People have tried to buy the solution with human moderation, and they've all given up. At scale, you need help. You need tools, and if you're lucky you can get tools to enable your community to do a lot of the basic work. Scott: Even if you're not at scale, don't overlook the ability to enlist your community in helping you identify and correct behaviors of people who are coming into your community. We're talking about avoiding the banhammer, which is a tool, and we're talking about all the other ways you can reduce damaging behavior in your community, and these are skills that anybody can employ including your community. So you can teach your community the same things. Teach them to engage and try to sus out the difference between is this person actually trying to harm you, or is this person just making a misstep about their behavior? If they can't handle it, then you become the escalation process. You then support your community as a community and you can get a small amount of scale even with a small community out of this. Randy: Very true. And you might be able to get incremental tool development to support the community. So for example, if you don't have a community platform, if you don't have report abuse as a button on content, assuming you have that much incremental tool development maybe significantly cheaper if all you want to do is count the number of people who mark this thing as violating the terms of service. Stack Overflow has a tool I'm not a big fan of but it's functional. You can spend one of your points to actually give someone a negative score. I don't like the math of this, but if enough negatives go in fast enough, they immediately read it as a hidden content line. So they get community feedback immediately, and then there's an escalation process that can occur to appeal. They recently changed this to improve the initial response, negative feedback pattern by changing the name from deleted to on hold, which invites a conversation and to have a community practice of, is it you leaving negative, one, or anything other than the most obvious spamming behavior, you should leave a comment about how to improve the post. It's kind of a social system that they've evolved to go along with their mechanical systems. A mechanical system doesn't have to be complicated, but it provides a mechanism for social evolution. Scott: Reframing the idea of flagging away from this is bad, it shouldn't be here, to this is problematic, and we want to fix it. Randy: I consulted on discourse.org's moderation mechanism and it does just that. When several people mark a thing as a problem, and the problem is not illegal or spam, but it's a content problem, the content still gets hidden, but the message that goes the user invites them to edit it, to fix based on the feedback from the community, and if they do edit it, it will be able to be re-posted immediately with no flags on it. So we say, "You can fix it. You can go back to square zero with this post, immediately. Give it a try." So, we presume that if it's not the most egregious kind of errors that the content hiding will be temporary until the problem is resolved. This is how people can learn the behavior that is expected of them in the community. Scott: I would like to see a lot more systems offering something like that. All too often, it is a post and punish model. You post it and either it goes away, and you're punished somehow, or you succeeded and it stays. This is what missing from a lot of these is that we're just not giving enough people chances and giving them the agency and the respect to actually change their behavior. Randy: This leads to the kind of thinking that was in the article when it said that, "Trolls are irredeemable." What do you think it's going to take if you never accepted their bad stuff from the beginning, and the community said if you want to post here, please don't be a dick, and there's a dick button, they will learn to conform, or they will leave. You don't have to kick them out because their content never appears. And by the way, it turns out to be the same pattern. So the pattern is, "Do I post things that are to my only benefit and to the harm of others, or do I contribute to this community?" The definitions of those vary from place to place, and it is the community who can help you enforce them as well as your moderators. So your moderators can focus on the real exceptions. Randy: Ban the banhammer. Scott: Ban the banhammer. Randy: Alright, we should say goodbye though. Scott: Oh yes. We should say goodbsye. Thank you very much for listening. We hope that this has been some help. So, don't reach for the banhammer. Randy: Yes, people are not nails. Catch you later. Randy: For links, transcripts, and more episodes, go to socialmediaclarity.net. Thanks for listening!

Kristen: Hello and welcome to Cerius Business Today. This is Kristen McAlister and I’m joined today with Interim HR Executive Scott Coolidge. Scott, thank you for joining us today. Scott: You bet, happy to be here. Kristen: Fantastic. One of the questions we get most often from CEO’s and business owners is how is it that someone of this caliber is sitting around waiting to help me with my company. They don’t quite understand the makeup of interim executives and how they’re available and when they jump in and out of companies. If you don’t mind giving us a little bit of your background and how is it that you ended up becoming an interim executive and why? Scott: Oh great question Kristen. It’s pretty simple from my vantage point. I’ve had a 35-plus year career, almost exclusively in Human Resources. About half of that I was with large consulting firms, Towers Perrin and Hey Management Consultants, and the other half was in corporate roles in HR and various capacities. The latest of which was the head of Human Resources at Freddie Mac. And I got to a point in my career where I wanted to shift and change priorities in terms of life and career and so I left Freddie Mac and launched a career that basically allows me a lot more flexibility to manage my priorities, and what I look for and what I’ve found so exciting about interim opportunities is I look for interesting business situations, I look for client situations where they have significant human resources issues and where I can add some value, and so far I’ve found that these interim roles really fit that bill very nicely. Kristen: It’s a good thing that you shifted to that. I know you’ve helped a lot of companies. Looking at the type of companies that you step in and lend you years of experience to, human capital is often the most important part and most overwhelming part of the organization. What are some of the common situations that you get brought into, especially looking at a small to mid-size business? Scott: That’s another great question Kristen, and what I’ve seen so far is that typically even though my background has been with Fortune 500 types of companies, as I’ve stepped into these interim roles, it tends to be small to medium-sized businesses. Usually they’ll have a human resources person there, but that person tends to be more administrative than executional with respect to the programs that they already have in place. And typically what I have found is that the organization is in a situation where they’re trying to grow or have grown, and the number and complexity of human resources issues has grown dramatically. And what they’re looking for is somebody who’s been there and done that before, and then exposed to situations that their current staff just simply hasn’t been associated with. So they’re looking for an advisor to help them think about the situations they find themselves in, retention of staff, engagement of staff. They might have some pro-dramatic issues around leadership development or performance management or change management. And so they’re looking for somebody to tap who’s been there, done that and can give them some advice around what to do, when to do it, where to invest their time, and what the implications are of doing that to their business operations, and frankly to their bottom line. And that’s what’s been so interesting for me. Kristen: As a business owner, CEO it’s hard to know when you need to bring in that external help. Often you don’t do it until, not that it’s too late, but it’s past the point when you should have or when it would’ve been most helpful and productive. What are some of the symptoms I should be looking for as a business owner in my organization to raise my head and say “wait we really need some outside assistance here.” Scott: Well that is typically what I’ve found to be the situation. Quite honestly you’re exactly right. Hindsight being 20/20, I think a number of CEO’s that I’ve worked with or leadership team members wished they would have done it a bit earlier. And you asked about symptoms, typically it’s a spike in turnover; that it is certainly one element. The second element is that they’re just not getting the performance that they’re looking for. They’re not growing as fast, they recognize that part of the problem is leadership issue and they know that they need to upgrade their talent but they’re just not quite sure how to go about it and what to do in that regard. The other symptom that often presents itself is that they’re having trouble recruiting and retaining the talent that they need in order to get to the next level. Again, they’ll bring some people in, they think they’re moving in the right direction but then the new people that join turn over fairly quickly, and they’re trying to figure out why that’s the case and what they need to do to resolve that. The other thing that happens quite often is that they’re running into some financial difficulties. As a matter of fact, one recent situation that we were involved with simply was their revenue had become, had plateaued and their expenses were rising and they needed to figure out what to do. So in that particular situation we had to come in and take a look at their total award, expense, compensation, recognition programs, that kind of thing. Figure out what needed to be changed in order to help them control expense while at the same time of being able to retain and engage the people that they have on board. Kristen: Thank you so much Scott. I appreciate your time and sharing your expertise and experiences with us today and joining us. For those listening, feel free to join us in our next episode Cerius Business Today and have a great day.

Andrew: This is Safety on Tap. I’m your host, Andrew Barrett, and since you’re listening in, you must be a leader wanting to grow yourself and drastically improve health and safety along the way. Welcome to you. You’re in the right place. If this is your first time listening in, thanks for joining us, and well done for trying something different to improve. And welcome back, of course, all of you excellent regular listeners. We’re super pumped to be collaborating on this podcast series with Safeopedia. Safeopedia’s mission is to organize the world’s environmental health and safety information to make access free and easy for everyone. Now, the team over at Safeopedia wanted to get to know you better, and for you to get to know Safeopedia better. So, this podcast series brings you some intimate conversations with the founders of Safeopedia and members of the Content Advisory Board. Safeopedia set up their Content Advisory Board to share observations and ideas on which topics and trends in the environmental health and safety industry will have the greatest impact for their audience. Their commitment to quality and to giving you relevant content is just top-notch. Listen in to each episode in this series, as we get to know the individuals involved, what makes them tick, and get some great advice, insightful stories, and motivation to help you grow. Here we go. Scott Cuthbert, co-founder of Safeopedia.com, welcome to the Safety on Tap podcast. Scott: Thank you very much, Andrew. A pleasure to be here. Andrew: This is the beginning of a bit of an experiment for both of us, where Safety on tap, with its support for leaders who want to grow themselves and drastically improve health and safety, and Safeopedia, aiming to be the place to go globally for health and safety and environmental information, come together. I’m pretty excited, I should say, on here, for our listeners, to be collaborating with you guys. Thank you very much, to begin with. Scott: Oh, our pleasure. We’re equally excited to be working with you and just understand the importance of leadership in environmental health and safety. Andrew: You have the genesis story. You have the very beginning, because this hatched, I’m sure, in your head, sitting in the bathtub or trudging through the snow or—one day, I’m sure, it popped into your head. So tell us a little bit about you and your story and how Safeopedia came to life. Scott: Sure. My background really started in the construction industry. Not swinging a hammer, so much, out on the job site—I started in the finance departments with the international general contractor. Because I was the guy that knew how to reboot a printer or run the backups for the AS400 at the time, I ended up getting pulled more and more into the IT side of things, and ended up leaving the grind of working for a general contractor and providing some consulting services back to the industry through project controls consulting and also system selection and implementation, and then decided to branch out on my own with a software company that was specifically designed to deal with the field data capture on these large-scale industrial projects. I guess it was really through that experience that I got pulled more and more into the safety side of the business. They needed to pull data from our system to do safety statistics, hours of exposure by plant area, by trade, by demographics of the workforce. I just sat in more and more safety meetings and really took a personal interest in it and volunteered to sit on several committees and just sit around the table more as an observer and as a safety expert and to hear what the guys out on the field were talking about, what their biggest hurdles were, and understand where their strengths were, versus where they were falling down, implementing the best practices out in the field. Andrew: How do you bridge the gap, then, between that active interest that you had in those still project-based roles on the consulting and how Safeopedia came to be? Scott: Well, it is one of those “light bulb goes on” stories, because I had— Andrew: It wasn’t in the bathtub? Scott: It wasn’t in the bathtub, but I was going to say it was one of those bathtub moments, but it was actually in my car. I was driving back from a safety committee meeting, and I had sat around the table with half a dozen—a dozen folks that had just a tremendous amount of experience. They were trying to do the best job that they could possibly do. They were trying to share best practices and understand what was working on this job site, versus that job site, and they were really struggling to collaborate with each other effectively. They were sending huge Word documents back and forth, and really, it wasn’t my idea, as much as it was the group’s idea, saying, “If there was just one place we could go where we had these best practices, where we had these tips and tricks, where we could share ideas, it would save us so much time and energy.” And so, I was driving back from the meeting, and it’s quite a ways away from where our office was, and I had this just pop into my head: “Safeopedia.” And as soon as that idea popped into my head, I just couldn’t wait to get back to the office. I drove safely, minded the speed limits, of course, but I drove straight back to the office and looked up the domain name, and it was available, and I purchased it right there and then and began the incorporation process to set it up as a legitimate company. I guess the rest is history from there. Andrew: You really just started with what was a relatively tiny bit of market research, passion for the area, and a spur-of-the-moment domain purchase. And after that, you really just worked it out from there. Scott: Yes, that’s absolutely correct. After securing the domain and starting the trademark and incorporation process, I did spend another year or two vetting the idea with industry folks to the best of my ability, throwing out ideas of “What should it be? Should we try to replicate LinkedIn? Should we make it more social, like Facebook? Or should we just be producing educational content to start with?” It was over the next 12 to 24 months where, again, the industry that had helped give me the idea helped me vet my ideas and strategies on how we should get it off the ground and where we should start. It wasn’t an overnight idea that popped into existence. It did certainly take some time to cultivate it and find the right folks to work with and align ourselves so that we could be successful out of the gate. Andrew: I think that really speaks to me, in the paradox of—on the one hand, you had an idea, and you just jumped on it. You kick-started it by that drive in the car and then purchasing that domain name. That, in itself, was very insightful, in that sometimes we spend too much time stewing on things, and we just don’t get them started. But then, on the other hand, the paradox is that you did spend a fair bit of time and effort in order to validate the idea, to make sure it worked. I think sometimes, often, there’s a learning out of that for us, where we spend too much time analyzing and thinking and planning, and maybe not enough time just getting stuff started. We might find that it is a big job—and that’s OK—but we might find sometimes that the job’s not as big as we think, and we’ll actually solve problems and help people a whole lot quicker if we just get on with it. I think that’s a great story to tell and a lesson for us to learn from. Safeopedia has been growing and growing, in terms of the numbers of people that it serves, visiting the website, attending webinars, consuming the content, contributing new content. We have our collaboration, obviously, which is moving into a new space with podcasts and potentially pushing the boundaries a little bit more. You’ve come up with this concept, which we described in the introduction, of this Content Advisory Board. From your point of view, with you leading the charge, why have a Content Advisory Board? Scott: Great question And both Jamie and I are the faces of Safeopedia. We have a tremendous amount of background and experience within these industries. But we’re not going to sit here and pretend that we know everything, that we’re experts in all the different areas. It was really important for us to pull a group together that could certainly augment our strategy and our ideas and provide some really strong expertise to the direction that we wanted to go in. As listeners will learn, we have a very diverse group of professionals across primarily North America, one in UK, and certainly, with your involvement, Andrew, some Australian representation, as well. Andrew: From Down Under. Scott: From Down Under. And they’re helping us to understand what the hot topics or the key topics are within their industries and their geographies, and help us look ahead a little bit to what will be the most valuable information we can produce for our users in those areas. Andrew: Makes plenty of sense to me. In the time that you have been grinding and driving and working to slowly grow Safeopedia, what’s the biggest lesson that you’ve learned in that process? What’s been your light bulb moment or a big height? What’s been the biggest lesson? Scott: The light bulb moment? I think it’s understanding the new economy—the Google economy, if you will—and how people are looking for information. It’s great. I think there’s a lot of really passionate people out there that are publishing great content. But unless you know how to get found, unless you know how to connect with others and have a voice in this ocean of data that we now live in, it’s all in vain. I think the most important lesson we’ve learned is, again, how to get your data out there, how to get your information out there, but make sure that you get heard, as well. I think that’s key. Andrew: Great lesson. Do you have a superpower? Scott: I don’t know if I have a superpower. Certainly, I was an early adopter on LinkedIn, and was connecting with people and keeping in touch with people. I think that, if anything, that’s been my superpower over the years. I can’t remember who wrote the book— Andrew: The Six Degrees of Separation? Scott: No, the connectors and the influencers and the mavens and Malcolm Gladwell, I think, The Tipping Point. Definitely, I’m a connector, and I’ve always been a connector. I think that’s key in this new digital economy: having an online presence and having some knowledge of how that all works. Andrew: You know what? You reached all the way across the globe in order to tap me on the shoulder. That brings us here today, so that’s a real testament to that. When we first started talking about getting together and working out how we can make a bigger dent in the world together than we might do separately—we’ll be honest with the listeners—I said to you, “I’m not sure that we’re a match. The content on Safeopedia is really good to support people in a technical sense, but it does have a focus on compliance and some of the detailed stuff, and there’s a different leaning towards stuff like hazards and IT systems and checklists and things like that.” Now, all of those things are important. They’re the foundational things that help us drive our programs in health and safety in our work. But I think, sometimes, we tend to ignore the gray and the messy and the people part, effectively. That’s very gray and messy. Here at Safety on Tap, we fuel leaders to grow themselves and drastically improve health and safety along the way, which often means challenging the status quo and pushing boundaries out of what I call “the conventional.” What direction do you personally want to see Safeopedia take in 2017? Scott: I definitely want to echo your comments. You can’t dismiss the fact that a lot of the compliance components are what has helped us build our audience of over 100,000 members. But in the long run—and this was echoed, as well, by the Content Advisory Board—there is a bit of a leadership vacuum within environmental health and safety. It’s been, to date, a very technically-focused discipline, and we really need to broaden that, to teach people and attract visionaries and leaders to the industry, so that we can not just make sure that companies are compliant, but that companies are embracing culture, health and safety, and they’re being leaders, not just followers, in the industry. Long-winded way of answering your question, but I’d really like to see us provide more content and more connections for people who want to take a leadership role, perhaps who don’t know how to get started or want to connect with leaders who have done it before and can share their experiences and best practices. That’s definitely an area that we want to focus on for 2017. Andrew: That’s the very reason why we’re talking today, because we’re all about supporting leaders to grow. I’m sure the listeners will tell I’m pretty excited about collaborating with you guys. Is there anything that you want to ask the listeners for, in terms of how they can contribute to improving Safeopedia, putting in what you get out, so to speak? Scott: Yes, absolutely. One of our biggest compliments—if you want to call it that—from last year, was when one of our team members was on a conference in Puerto Rico, thousands of miles from here, and was talking about different businesses that he was involved in, and mentioned Safeopedia, and the fellow that he was speaking to—his eyes just lit up, and he said, “Hey, I use Safeopedia all the time. I can’t believe you’re one of the guys involved in Safeopedia! We go there regularly to look at articles and share content with our management team and our guys on the field.” That’s one of the greatest compliments we can get. We see, through Google Analytics, that over 50,000 people are coming to our site every month, but we really only get an opportunity to interact with a few of them, who maybe have some suggestions for us, who have some criticisms for us, who think that we need to focus on different areas or expand an article or a term that we have posted on the site. I really encourage people to—and we listen. I’m sure there are sites out there where people send emails and you never hear back, but we want to hear from everybody. We only know what we know. If you know something we don’t, by all means, share with us. Our terms and articles—our content is there as a starting point to help improve industry and help people out in the field, so any ideas or suggestions or criticisms that you guys have for us, please, by all means, share it. We’d love to hear it. Andrew: I’ll just add to that, it’s not just about you, then, getting more of what you want out of Safeopedia, or providing feedback to our podcast, as well. It’s equally the same, where the feedback you provide will help hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Scott: That’s right. Andrew: That, I think, is the fantastic thing about this global connected economy that we live in. Scott: Absolutely, if you have a question, or you have a problem with an article, then chances are hundreds, perhaps thousands, of others do as well. It was a little while ago now, but we had posted an article, and somebody replied, and the tone of it was a little bit angry. He had written a big dissertation about what was wrong with the article and the approach that we were taking. We reached out. We contacted him and said, “Hey, this is fantastic. This criticism is absolutely invaluable. Can we take this and turn it into an opposing article that talks about the same subject from a different perspective? Because if you’re having that problem—no matter how many people like or share or retweet that original article, if you’re having problems with it, then somebody else is, too.” He agreed, and we posted his follow-up article as a Part 2, and it was hugely successful and really, really well-received. We’re here to make the site better. We don’t take anything personally, so by all means, get involved and let’s make it the best site we can make it. Andrew: That’s a fantastic example. We might link to those two articles, I think, in the Safeopedia article for this podcast interview, and also on the Safety on Tap website show notes, as well, so the listeners can have a look at those and compare and contrast for themselves. Before you go, Scott, what’s your best piece of advice for people who want to have a more effective impact in their environment, health, and safety practice? Scott: I would say, "be tenacious." It’s a very, very important industry. It’s an important part of every organization. But it still continues to be minimized. Some companies are looking at it as a cost item, and some people think that it negatively impacts productivity, but we have to keep providing them with—keep educating them and keep moving them forward, slowly if necessary. But be tenacious. Don’t give up. It’s so important. It’s about our planet. It’s about our coworkers. It’s about ourselves and making sure everybody gets to go home safe to their families at the end of the day. Don’t lose hope. Be tenacious. If you need to, reach out, and we’ll provide whatever support we can. Andrew: Fantastic advice, and I’m looking forward to continuing to make a difference in the world with you and Jamie and the rest of the guys at Safeopedia. Scott Cuthbert, thanks for joining us on the Safety on Tap podcast for Safeopedia. Scott: Thanks, Andrew. My pleasure. Andrew: Thanks to Scott for today’s conversation. Next episode, we have Scott’s partner in crime—hang on, that didn’t come out right—anyway, Jamie Young from Safeopedia. Given the commitment to improvement that we have here at Safety on Tap and at Safeopedia, let us know what you think about this episode. Give us a comment. The best way is to head over to iTunes or Stitcher to leave us a review and to comment, and we’ll be eternally grateful. If you haven’t already, check out even more episodes and great content over at Safeopedia.com and SafetyonTap.com. Until next time, I think you take positive, effective, and rewarding action to grow yourself and drastically improve health and safety along the way. See you!

This week we discuss Beleskey, the NHL All Star Game, John Scott and even dogs. As always, we conclude the podcast with the Bear Necessities. Enjoy!

Quantifying Empathy - Episode 23 Twitter Hearts and Facebook Reactions TL;DR - You KNOW Marc, Randy, and Scott couldn't let Twitter messing with Favorites and Facebook Reactions go without some spirited discussion. Facebook is testing emoji reactions - this is the ‘dislike button' by Owen Williams @ TNW Hearts on Twitter on the Twitter Blog. RECLAIMING CONVERSATION : The Power of Talk in a Digital Age is Sherry Terkle's new book which influenced some of Randy's thinking. Kaliya Hamlin (@identitywoman) was mentioned during the episode. Transcript Intro: Welcome to the Social Media Clarity Podcast. Fifteen minutes of concentrated analysis and advice about social media in platform and product design. Randy: I'm Randy Farmer Scott: I'm Scott Moore. Marc: I'm Marc Smith. Randy: Really, Twitter, hearts? Scott: Really, Facebook? Reactions. Randy: Oh, my gosh, guys. We have a lot to talk about since the last time we've had a session. The big social guys have gone nuts for emoticons as a way to express yourself with a single click. Scott: We already had ways of expressing ourselves, they were just very generic. Now we're trying to be specific about it. Randy: Twitter changes from stars to hearts ... Scott: ... and Favorites to Likes. Randy: Yeah, and Favorites to Likes. [as if] they're exactly the same. If you think they're the same, people out there, just think what if they changed it back to a pile of crap. Is that the same as a heart, or a star? When I think of Twitter's problems, I don't think this is one of the ones that was very high on the list. Scott: No, but it's one of the ones that helps them get attention. It helps generate notifications. They practically said, 'we're not getting enough people using the Favorite, so now we're going to change it to something that more people will use.' That generates notifications, and that brings people back to the app. Randy: So, something that was meaningful, now means less. Marc: Is it the case that you are more likely to love something than like it? Randy: Well, that's not the test on the table in this case. It's Like versus Favorite. Marc: Yeah, but the like generates this heart, which suggests love, and it used to be a star. So, we're moving from star to heart. Admittedly, we're going from Favorite to Like, but is there really that much more like than favorite in the world? Scott: I think that the context was really different. From what I gauged from the reactions, other than people just hating change, was that Favorite de-noted a bookmark, and then expanded from there. A lot of people were using it as, "I'm saving this link for later", or, "I'm saving this Tweet for later". Some people were using it as, as you would for any signaling system, some people were using it as, "I like what you said". Now, they've actually tightened up the context while at the same time, loosen it, by saying, it's a like, which can mean anything. Anything that's positive. It's a positive mark on it. Randy: Right, and they retroactively marked every Favorite a Like. How many gillions of those they have, I don't know. At least one person I was talking to yesterday when I first saw this in practice, and was shocked by it, was Kaliya [Hamlin], otherwise known as Identity Woman, and she says, "Oh my God, now I've got to go fix all my Favorites on Twitter, because I don't love most of those things." Scott: Yeah. Some people were tweeting out "Liking your tweet is not consent." Randy: That's awesome. When we first thought of doing this episode, that hadn't even happened yet. That's just the freshest thing, that happened yesterday. Before that, Facebook was going to start testing the emoticon variants, or they call Reactions, as a response to the demand for dislikes. Marc: Right. So, we don't get Dislike, but we get Reactions. Randy: Well, and if you look at the reactions, the icons are ambiguous. I don't know if that's a feature or a bug. They do, in fact, include a dislike one, called Angry, it's angry face. It's like, what's this about? I think this is what we wanted to talk about, is we wanted to take some of these seemingly crazy, and capricious ideas, and talk about what it is maybe they're trying to do. We've been calling this, amongst the three of us - " Quantifying Empathy." So, we are going to have a conversation about that today. Marc: Right. It seems that what we're seeing is a feature that allows people to have a very light weight way to author some higher level of attention. I mean, after all, the system knows who "saw" each piece of content, and it even reports that for some pieces of content on some platforms. It'll say some number of people have been exposed to, or have seen the piece of content, but that's sort of the lowest level of content measurement. How many people might have seen it. Now with the Like, or the Love, or the Favorite, or the reaction, we're trying to get people to click, and just click, but to click from a field of choices to give us a higher resolution sense of, what did that click mean? The Like was too ambiguous. So, now we have angry, and happy, and sad. What are the other ones? Grumpy. Randy: You can make up as many as you want. Scott: Great. Randy: No, there's just a few. There's a Yay one supposedly. Scott: Yay. There's Wow, there's Sad, there's Angry ... Scott: ... and there's one other. Randy: So, when you use ambiguous faces, in the case of Facebook, it actually lacks all subtlety. Does it mean what the face expresses to you? Or, does it mean the words that are written underneath it? Scott: Yeah. Am I angry at you because of something you said? Or, am I angry about the same thing you're angry? Am I expressing actual empathy, or am I reacting against you? Marc: So, this is a great piece of ambiguity that the interface has yet to resolve. You pointed this out earlier, that people are splitting their reaction to what this story means _for the author_ of the story, and their reaction _to_ the story. So, there's this ambiguous reference that must be clarified, and these additional features do not clarify it. If anything they add more ambiguity. Randy: Interesting in Facebook, is you've always been able to use these exact same icons, you've always been able to add them to a message. You did it by posting a reply to post. You would then explain - so, you could put in a sad face, and say, "I feel sorry for you. If I can help you in any way, let me know." Right? So, you have this rich interaction that would be going on between humans. So, what do the humans actually want? What are good for humans? Probably saying more, not saying less. What really kind of drives it home for me, is when you *count* them. I say, when you click on an angry icon, there's object missing. There's a famous expression; "This sentence no verb". Right? Well, now with the reactions we have; "I'm angry with..." or "I'm mad at..." Marc: That's great. That's great. Randy: I'm sad at ... Right? In the same kind of construction, with that missing by pulling them out. Then you count them, and you say, "Lots of us are mad at..." We don't even know if those people are mixed and matched on what they're mad at. Scott: Right. A lot of people are mad, but we don't know if they're mad at, or mad with. Randy: Yeah, and I've got to tell you, that's going to drive people off. Just the mad icon alone is going to drive people away from posting, because they can't figure out, you know, if you have any social anxiety, any feedback, other than "we love you, it's okay" is going to be harmful. So, it surprised me that they said Dislike is too negative, we get that, and then put an angry face. In counting them they're already finding out in Spain and Ireland, where they're testing it, messages are coming back with a mixture of counted face types. Want to talk about no way to interpret data - What the heck does that mean? Facebook's excited, because they got a lot of clicks they probably wouldn't have got before. That they can use to route messages to your email box. Scott: Yeah, so the cynical side of me says - so one thing in developing, and choosing what they were going to choose as far as what icons to go for - they looked at all the one word, and sticker-only posts, and they just kind of aggregated all that together, and said, okay, these are the things that people most likely say in those replies, when they're posting an emoticon or sticker or something like that. So, they're just making it easier for them now to count and quantify that for other purposes. Either to send notifications, or more likely a lot of the brand pages, the blogs, and other folks out there who are into Facebook marketing, are saying this could be useful, because now you can get more detailed information about what your brand reaction is. So, it's just another thing that someone's going to measure in order to sub-divide targeted marketing. Randy: Yeah, but that ends up, it's true, and diluting. We all recall the experiments people have been doing just with Like and Share, if you think X: Like this thing. If you think Y: Share this thing. Right, because they're trying to manipulate these various counters. So, it occurred to me, they could have just put in a polling mechanism. So ... Scott: Twitter did put in a polling mechanism recently. Randy: Good. Scott: Yeah, Facebook used to have polls. A long, long time ago, Facebook used to have polls, and they took them out. Marc: So, this is an interesting point. If we're going to be critical of the reaction system, we ought to suggest an alternative: One alternative is to allow the poster to list the reactions that they are interested in having people choose from. So, a little bit of a hybrid between a poll, and these emotion icons. Maybe you could react to me with sympathy, empathy, or cash, or other. Scott: Well, you could even take the system that they have now, and say, which one of these would you like to focus on, or how many of these would you like people to, you know, is this a 'Wow - Yay' type of post? Do you want Wows and Yays, and you don't want Sads on your post, because that's not what you're talking about? They actually have something built in, this is really funny, in Facebook, they have the option for being able to say, "I'm feeling blessed." Or happy, or sad, or angry, and they have this list of about 25 of these things, and why can't I +1 somebody who is feeling a certain way already? Because now the context is, "I'm with you on this. " Marc: So, what's the ultimate goal here? We want users to click more, and ... Randy: ...let's be clear: Advertisers want users to click more. Marc: Right, right. I meant to say, what is the system designers ultimate goal here. They want users to click more. As system users though, as people who use these features, what is our goal? Randy: I got to say, I'm with Sherry Turkle on this, that anything that reduces human conversation, is probably truly reducing empathy. If people out there are interested, I'll put a link in the show notes to show Turkle's latest book and work. It talks specifically about the fact that we've been reducing ourselves to machine interactions with lighter and lighter interfaces to the point where we don't even know what empathy is anymore. We don't have to respond with any empathetic statement when all we have to do is click a sad icon. Scott: Yeah, and I really want to read Sherry's book, but I'm starting to think that there's a slight difference in that, and a little bit more optimistic in that, yes, using our smart phones, and what not, are pulling us away from face to face conversations, and I think we're having to figure out now that we're breaking that, what can we do, now that we're turning our faces towards devices, what can we do to actually build back in? What are the things that we're missing, and how do we rebuild that in our systems? How do we get folks to build up more empathy with people, and can we do that with systems? I think it's something that is important. These systems are light weight, and they're somewhat useful, but they lack deeper meaning, which is exactly what you're saying. Randy: Well, don't take the simple path. Don't just count clicks on dots, right? Design interfaces that help people solve problems. Scott: Right. Randy: People do this. Marc: What problem do people feel like they have? I mean, at the moment Facebook trained us to want to generate certain kind of responses. We want Likes, we want Comments, we want some kind of currency that proves we consumed other people's attention, and that they've granted us some kind of approval. Is that they only purpose that we could use this platform for, and is that the only purpose these reaction features are designed to support? Scott: Well, obviously not. I mean, that's not the only purpose. Facebook's purposes might be at cross purposes with those of us who want to actually build communities online, and help people develop deeper, meaningful relationships. That's why I think that these are light weight, but not very meaningful. They might suffice in those ambiguous situations, especially in a network like Facebook, where very often you are not close friends with the people who are on your Facebook network. So, sometimes commenting deeper on something could become awkward, because you just aren't that well connected, but you want to acknowledge. So, I think there's room for the social grooming that a Like, or any of these kind of reactions would provide, but I think that we should be thinking about, as designers, and as people who are fostering online communities, how to help people get to that deeper conversational engagement, that Sherry Turkle is point out, even though we are still on our devices. Randy: Right. So, I think I can summarize my thought on this, clearly, which is, any interface that allows a single click for me to add angry, without and object on it, decreases my chances of influencing the person, or the event, I was angry with, because there is no context provided. So, the one way we can improve using these tools is if I choose angry, I do actually have to say at what. Scott: Well, and as a designer, we could even prompt people that if you choose ... Randy: Exactly. Scott: ... that if you choose something it would give them the ability to provide the context, rather than the context-less emoticon. Randy: Yeah, so, agree and disagree are missing. We know from helpful/unhelpful movie reviews that two of those icons are going to be re purposed for that, because they already are. If they had helpful and unhelpful we know those would be mapped to agree and disagree, for controversial objects. So, is angry going to be the new disagree? Scott: Yeah, I think so. Marc: So, is this all because typing a few characters, a comment, a short message, is too burdensome, and is it too burdensome because of the time, or because we're doing it with one thumb, standing in a checkout line, and that's why we really need, at most, the two to three to four tap method for replying to complex situations. Rather than the forty- or fifty-tap necessary to actually type out a five- or eight-word sentence. Scott: I think that's a good point. I don't think that these systems are being designed with user convenience in mind to necessarily help us to communicate with each other better. I think that they are there to help us generate notifications, so that we come back to the application faster and more often. Randy: A single click on a face has striped almost all semantic meaning from the event. Scott: I think you have a point that this particular system is being set up, and this particular way, because mobile devices are being used for the quick in and out, you know, quick check. Users are using it that way, and Facebook and Twitter are adapting to that particular use in order to capture that behavior. That's what it is, it's a behavior capture system. They're getting somebody's attention, they want to get somebody to "engage," even though I don't think that's engagement. Then they're going to pull all that data together, and they're going to use it as either targeted advertising, or use it to generate more notifications to bring the original posters back to the application, where you deliver more ads. Marc: So, I would say it as this: Why not to like the new Like - I'm angry, you might be happy, but we might not be able to tell. Randy: That sounds like a great summary to me. Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Randy: Thanks everyone. I hope you're enjoying the new format. Go ahead and say thanks, guys. Marc: Right. Scott? Randy: Say thanks. Scott: Oh, that. I'm not. I'm like, now I'm lost. Marc: You're not thankful? I'm thankful. Thank you everyone. Scott: I'm Angry. Thanks. Randy: Okay, that's great. That's an ending. I'll take it. Scott: I don't know why. I'm just Angry. Marc: Well, I'm going to be Grumpy in a minute, so ... Randy: I might even keep a little of this. Marc: Bye-bye. Randy: All right. Outro: For links, transcripts, and more episodes, go to Social Media Clarity dot net. Thanks for listening.

This week on the Chicago Geocacher Podcast… We invade the UK geocaching podcast Oh Beep using their format, but with all the fun of Walt and Scott. Listen what happens when a UK podcast asks Scott & Walt to take over their show. Oh hindsight, you silly bird. You don’t want to miss this one! […]

In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman we bring you an amazing interview by our friends at The P2P Podcast (Penitentiaries to Penthouses)At 16, Kiana was convicted & sentenced to 2 life sentences without parole. While physically he was incarcerated, mentally he was FREE. Resilience is his name and after 17 years of living in the can God made a way for him to be in physical freedom.#formerlyincarcerated #prisonstories #redemption #secondchances #bloodyangolapodcast #woodyoverton #jimchapman #truecrime #realliferealcrimeBREAKING THE CHAINS  - FULL TRANSCRIPT - BLOODY ANGOLA PODCASTJim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to Bloody Angola. A podcast 142 years in the making. The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. And I am Jim Chapman. Woody Everton cannot join us today. He is on assignment. But we're bringing you something different today. We did a two-part series, if you haven't checked it out yet, it's called Second Chances. It features a former inmate at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. He was actually the first juvenile released when the Supreme Court passed a law making it possible for juveniles who were sentenced to life in prison without parole to get a parole hearing after 25 years. If you haven't seen that episode yet, go check it out.This week, we have a very special episode. The guy we brought you the story of and who actually joined us for the two episodes of Second Chances, we met through our friends at Penitentiaries 2 Penthouses. It's a podcast known as P2P, and they interview formerly incarcerated people that are doing well as they acclimate back into society. When we did the Second Chances episodes, they were a big part of that, certainly a big part of making the introduction to the gentleman that came on the show. So, thank you so much to P2P.And they have an amazing podcast. So, we have decided that we're going to bring y'all one of their episodes and we're going to share it on our feed. We thought y'all would really enjoy it. We have some really, really big stuff about to pop off for Bloody Angola. I know that y'all are going to be real excited as we go through that process, but I think y'all will love this episode. It is with a gentleman by the name of Kiana Calloway who was in Angola for a very long time and has quite a story that you need to hear or that you will enjoy hearing. Without further ado, here's the P2P Podcast in their interview with Kiana Calloway. [P2P theme]Scott: Welcome, everybody. This is Scott with Penitentiaries 2 Penthouse Podcast. Shane: Yes, sir.Scott: I'm your host. To the left of me, we got Mr. Beatty.Beatty: Your best friend in real estate. Scott: To the right of me, we've got our guest, Mr. Kiana Calloway. Kiana: Swag out. What's happening? Scott: Special gentleman he is. And then, we got my partner over here to the left, Mr. Shane Johnson. Beatty: Big Shane.Shane: Yes, sir. 24 years successful now. Scott: There you go. We look forward to digging into today's message. Kiana, man has a powerful story. How I know Kiana is we work on a project together through the Justice and Accountability Center of Louisiana. Basically, that's nonprofit organization full of attorneys and policy people who march down to the state capitol every year.Kiana: Shoutout, JAC.Scott: JAC. And they do legislative work, so they propose bills, work with lobbyists, senators, representatives to pass criminal legal reform bills. The specific focus though is usually expungement legislation. For those of you who don't know what expungement legislation is, expungements are the things that guys like myself, Kiana, Mr. Shane over there need once we come home for opportunities. Whether it's employment, housing, life insurance, you name it, there's hundreds of things that we get denied for on a regular basis based on the fact that we made some mistakes in our lives and we've paid our time, we've paid our debt, and we're trying to get past that. So, the work that we're doing revolves around expungements. A, changing expungement law, but B, getting the knowledge and information out there because the average Joe that comes home from prison-Kiana: Don't even know about it.Scott: -don't know about expungements, don't know how to go about getting expungements. Furthermore--Shane: I am one.Scott: Yeah, exactly. And they're expensive as hell. You could easily rack up if you have multiple felonies, several thousand dollars just in paying the state, the district attorneys, and the clerks of court's office, not even including legal counsel. That's the work that the Justice and Accountability Center does. Me and Kiana are working on a project to get the expungement app through Justice and Accountability Center, the information there out. So, we're going to be traveling, presenting workshops, getting the information out there so that people can access expungements equitably.Kiana: Plug in, man, we're going to be in your areas very, very soon. Just being able to alleviate one of the collateral consequences that come after incarceration, I think that we're doing our part. And we'll be doing ourself a disservice, God, if we're not traveling, educating people about the work that we're putting in the state capitol. Keeping them informed that there's issues that you can get plugged into, but you just need to reach out. We can't do this in our silos. It's an honor to have run into a like-minded brother that's putting in work outside the bars because you are what you do, even when the camera is not on. [chuckles]Scott: Yeah, for sure. It's easy to look good on camera. It's harder to make it happen on the outside. But that's what I like to do. I'm just passionate about-- and just like you, passionate about making sure that people have opportunities, man, because I was given opportunities and I've had a lot of challenges, man, and I just want to see people be able to breeze through that process instead of getting caught in the hiccups.I do want to highlight a very successful human being today. As I said, I had the fortunate privilege of watching Kiana's documentary that's coming out real soon on a very, very national level. I told him today, and it's hard to get me to break down. And I told him, man-- [Shane laughs] Man, I watched it, dude, and they had some parts in it, I was just like [inhales deeply] and it'll really hit you. He's had a very, very challenged life, a lot of injustices, and I'm going to let him explain that. A lot of people see the part of the justice system that WAFB, whatever your local news channel post out there about people who commit crimes and their wrongs or whatever, but they don't talk about all those mugshots that they post where guys really didn't do what they were being accused of.I'm going to let Kiana take it from here, but if you don't mind, could you just kind of share a little bit about your upbringing and then what caused you or what led to the prison? And then we'll just kind of take it from thereKiana: Well, actually, the system led me to prison. Scott: Right. Kiana: We have to understand that the system was built to do exactly what it's doing. People say the system messed up. No, it's not messed up. It's doing exactly what it was scripted to do. We must always bring that energy back into the space. Just so happened that I have been resilient enough to really surpass the test that the system has caused upon my life. I've seen individuals in the same space, same situation, same cell, and six months later, they hung themselves because they can't handle the stresses or the traumatic expressions about being, one, either fomerly accused and convicted of a crime, or, two, just trying to figure out, like, "Man, is this my life? Is this what I'm supposed to be?" Not to get too deep into that, because my documentary, it basically shows resiliency. It shows the true test of time. Like, you can go through these hard spaces, but you have to be prepared to bounce back because everybody bounces back. Shane: Amen. Scott: What you're referring to is the school-to-prison pipeline? Kiana: Yes. Scott: Okay. Got you. Kiana: Everybody bounces back. Beatty: Explain the school-to-prison pipeline. Kiana: School-to-prison pipeline. Okay, I'm going to give it to you in layman terms. Beatty: Let's go. I am layman.[laughter] Scott: That sounds like a good movie title. [crosstalk] Beatty: I am he.Kiana: Okay, definitely. So, school-of-prison pipelines. I went to prison at 16 years old. If I was tested in the second or third grade and I read below a certain level, they built another cell for me. Just the way that it planned out, I ended up in that cell, that school-to-prison pipeline. If we understand the way that our America is functioning, three main attributes of human survival. Education, travel, and should I say-- I'll throw manufacturing and the building. Planes, the way planes first started, it crunk up, but now the evolution of planes is that it just takes off. They could probably put it on autopilot, ain't got nothing but to do the landing. And it's crazy, man. The car, it crunk up. Now, you pushed on. Why? Education is still the same. You sit in a single-file line. They teach you ABC, one, two, three and it never gives the whole individuality of the person. So, when we speak about school-to-prison pipeline, I walked through a metal detector when I was going to elementary school. If this is an educational institution, they should be focused on my education and not my protection or not my apprehension in so many different ways. We learn how to stand in a single-file line, walking to child hall, cafeteria. What did you do? You stood in a single-file line, and you walked to the child hall. I understand the level of control, but that's how institutionalized that we can be. People never have been to prison and are more institutionalized than someone that spent 50 years in the junk. Beatty: Concrete walls, fluorescent lighting. Kiana: Hey.Scott: Colors.Beatty: White, blue. Scott: Light blue. I guess to give that short synopsis of school-to-prison pipeline, at a young age, you experienced that-- we all do-- Kiana: It's a program. Scott: And then, which eventually led to? Kiana: Even since those days of single-file lines, straight line education, as today, we pump 72% of our state's budget into incarcerating someone instead of the education precinct. Only 13% or sometimes 7% of the budget goes to the adequate education of our youth. That shows the level of, should I say, support--Beatty: Focus.Kiana: Dependence, codependence, any word that we want to put into that space, because we must understand that it's systems that we're dealing with. These systems that we're dealing with has to be dismantled and it has to be dismantled from the inside. Scott just said that we have the privilege of working on the new task force, the Safe and Alternative Task Force, which is a governmental task force that was structured through last year's legislation, which gives us the opportunity to properly plan the effects of not only expungements, but the use of solitary confinement inside of our jails and prisons in the state of Louisiana.And sitting at these tables with the state attorney, with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Department of Corrections, I really start to understand that we are the experts in this field. Like, people are holding these positions and really don't know.Unison: Mm-hmm. Kiana: They really don't know the outlook of putting a face to incarceration. That's what we need to try to understand. Who are we incarcerating? How can we lead the nation in crime, but we have--Shane: The highest incarceration rate.Kiana: Yeah. Let me kind of bring this back. How can we be less in the nation in education, but highest in the nation in crime and incarceration? Scott: Going back to you being sentenced at a young age or going to jail or prison at a young age, can you share with us what happened and then jump into your experience? Kiana: I'm going to XYZ it because a lot of it is in the film.Scott: Yeah, don't spoil it.Kiana: Yeah, I don't want to do a spoiler alert, but, man, I look at my life as not a needle in the haystack. Yes, I was falsely apprehended, falsely accused, falsely convicted, sentenced to two lifes without the possibility of probation, parole, or suspension of sentence. Was said in the trial for my life to be deliberated on, like, "You either going to get life in prison, or we're going to send you to death row." Shane: Wow. Kiana: This is at the age of 16, just making 17.Scott: Swallow all that at the age of 16?Kiana: I had to swallow all of that, and now I have the opportunity to regurgitate that because now my pain is turning into passion. It's turning into my why. That's why I love waking up every morning. That's why I love opening my refrigerator. That's why I love playing with my daughter. Shoutout to my baby mama. Shoutout to my fiancé. I definitely got to say, what's happening T? I love you. A lot of these things that's taking place right now, I wouldn't do it without you on my side. Shane: Amen. Kiana: Yeah, definitely throw that in the space. The evolution of life sometimes, like even riding up here today, I've never been to Denham Springs a day in my life, but it felt like an epiphany. Getting off of this bridge, making this exit, I'm like, "Dang, they got a Cane's right here." [laughter] Kiana: I was tasting Cane's. It's basically trying to figure out, I am walking in the steps of my higher power, my divine energy. When I was laying in the cell, and I was like, "God, man, something got to happen." I woke up the next day, and I woke up the next day, and I woke up the next day. So, I'm looking at that right now, if we can kind of just think back to our prophetic literature that's in the books, and I'll say the Bible, Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, that's the acronym that I placed on it. Inside of this book, they have stories of great men. I placed myself inside of these great men while I was in that cell looking at these cinderblock walls, I had a 55-inch TV, so I read the story of Paul. Paul was a gangster. Paul wrote probably 85% of the book. Scott: And he marked a whole lot of people. Kiana: Man, he was a gangster. Paul used to rob, Paul used to steal, Paul used to kill, Paul was taking lives. That's for me. Let me get that move around. [laughter] Shane: He was more definitely--[crosstalk] Kiana: Move around, let me get that. Let me get that. Paul was incarcerated over 75% of his existence.Shane: Yes. Scott: And wrote a good portion-- Shane: And he was a great man.Kiana: Paul was incarcerated 75% of his existence.Shane: He was a great man.Kiana: He wrote books that stand the test of time till today. Prophetic hymns, metaphorical narrative that any culture can take and put it into their own existence. Every line, every piece, every scripture, every sentence, every dot, every comma means something. That's what we need to pay attention to in life. Every comma means something. If I had to trade my chicken plate so I could get on the phone, see people don't understand that type of narrative though. People don't understand that type of narrative. You see what I'm saying? Beatty: Tell everybody-Scott: Tell the laymen.Beatty: -what that means. Kiana: I spent 18 months in one of the most dehumanizing places that ever could have been created for a human being, and that was Camp J. Shane: Angola, Louisiana. Kiana: Angola, Louisiana. The Farm. Yes. So cooler one, cell 11. They got cell 10. Cell 11 was the last cell. They had a guy named Money that slept on side of me for 10 months. Every morning, he woke up singing, [in a singing tone] "It's been a long, a long time coming, but I know a change gon' come." Scott: Is that Money from RCC? Kiana: No, not that Money. This is the old Money--Scott: [crosstalk] Kiana: Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Money name was Alfred Baker. When I went to Camp J, Money had all been in Camp J for like 14 years at this time. Shane: Wow. Kiana: He got caught up-- [crosstalk] in that same cell. In that same sale. That's why I fight for solitary confinement today. Scott: Talk a little but about that, because I did hear you'd mentioned about solitary confinement kind of messed you up, so make sure touch on that. But solitary confinement, man, you'll go crazy sitting in--[crosstalk] Kiana: I've seen it. Scott: How did it affect you? Shane: Hold on. Chicken for the phone.Scott: Oh, yeah. Kiana: Okay. Shane: Keep us on point right there.Beatty: No. Are we talking trades? What are we doing?Kiana: So here we go, we're talking trades. So, I was in Camp J. The man come down, shift change, 6:00 and 6:00. We know shift change. 06:00, man come down. "Who wants to use the phone?" Friday, what's on Friday? In Unison: Chicken. Kiana: Exactly. Who wants to use the phone? Everybody hands coming out the bar. "Okay. Let me get them plates. How many people are not getting the chicken plate?"Beatty: [laughs] Kiana: Listen, I didn't talk to my-- Beatty: This is the guard?Kiana: This is the guard.Scott: He's trying to eat. Kiana: He's getting chicken so he could swing it on the other side of the town. Shane: You have to make an executive decision. Kiana: They got Joe's around the corner. So, you know it's a whole situation here. You only get one phone call every 30 days in Camp J at this time. Scott: Really? Kiana: I haven't talked to mom then. This was in '98. My mom got diagnosed with breast cancer. You've seen the space, my mom got diagnosed with breast cancer. I didn't know for like two and a half years that she was even-- She comes to see me one time, and her head was bald. I didn't know what was going on. Scott: Wow. She didn't tell you then?Kiana: She still didn't tell me. She just broke down crying. I'm like, "Baby, don't worry about it. We got this. I'm going to be able to give you your roses while you're still here." Shoutout, mom, she's still home. Every day, yes, I give her roses while she's still here. Scott: [crosstalk] -strong woman.Shane: Big love. Kiana: As you can see, my life revolved around the strength of this queen, and it shows. I'm going to try to amplify that to the best of my ability. Shoutout, mom, I love you. Anyway, I haven't talked to my mom in like three months at this time. What's going on? Every time I call, now I know that she was going through chemo, so she didn't even want to get on the phone weary. So, I'm talking to my sister, I'm talking to my brother, talking to my nephews. I'm talking to everybody but mom. I know, I know something ain't right. Something ain't right. She never did this. I was blessed my entire 17 years. Well, I spent 17 years in prison as a result of that conviction and still have 17 years on parole. I'm currently on parole.Scott: Unjustly.Kiana: Unjust. And currently on parole. Have 6 years remaining, been home 11 years. That was my main source of everything. Every month, Molly Diggs sent $100 to my account. Every month for 17 years. Man, if that's not a blessing, you know what I'm saying? Within itself because I used to take my $100 and split it down the middle so I could feed-- you were on the dome, you know what's happening.Shane: Yeah. Kiana: You know how'd that go. Shane: Believe me, I do.Kiana: This work that I'm doing out here, this is work that was prophetically distributing and manifesting itself in a can. I love brothers, I love you. It's how we do this. It's work that we got to do. But I'd be damned if I trade my chicken plate again though.Shane: That's right. [laughter] Kiana: I'd be damned if I traded that chicken plate again. Scott: Since we're talking about solitary, man, if you don't mind just kind of sharing a little bit about, A, how it affected you, how long you stayed in solitary, and then kind of tell the folks out there what solitary does to the mind. Because I have my own personal experience, I spent 11 months in solitary myself, sitting in cells. But I want to hear your take on it, and then I'll kind of chime in with mine.Kiana: Okay, so you want my professional take, or you want my personal experience? Scott: Personal experience.Shane: Personal. And keep it for the who? Layman?Beatty: Yeah, laymen, please. Name of the next movie, Only for the Layman. Kiana: When we're speaking about solitary confinement, let me put a definition to that first. Solitary confinement is a person placed in the one- or two-man cell for 23 hours or more without the ability of education, personal contact, air, exercise, everything that you are being deprived of. I'll just say deprived of all liberty and growth with no access to human contact. Basically, the first time that you are apprehended, when you get into a police car and they put the handcuffs on you and you go to a holding tank, let's call that solitary confinement. Some people may be placed in the cell with 14 people. Some people may be placed in the cell with two. Some people may be placed in the cell with one. Okay, so the effects of solitary confinement, what we're triggering here in Louisiana is the term "post-incarceration syndrome", and that is when a person who have spent a long time inside of any incarcerated state has mental transformations that may impede the normal ways of thinking.Now, that's where the tunnel comes in. It could be a mental disorder. It could be some similar to posttraumatic stress disorder. You could deal with insomnia, you could deal with claustrophobia, you could deal with depression, you can deal with-Scott: Anxiety. Kiana: -anxiety. There's so many different-- [crosstalk] yes. There's so many ways that you can kind of figure it out. So, when I first came home, I knew what I experienced personally. When I go to the bathroom, I take one leg on my [crosstalk] to take me a crap. Why do I do that? Because when I was in prison, I knew I had to be on guard at all times. Shane: All the time, every day. Scott: You can't stand up and fight with your pants down.Shane: No. Scott: [crosstalk] -free access to move around.Kiana: The thing about it is, when I came home, I still was continuing those traits until I realized, "Man, I could take my pants off. I could just slide them down right here. Nobody's going to come in the door and do me nothing." When I sit down to eat, my arm's on the table, and I'm doing what I'm doing because I know I got to be finished before this last dude is sitting down. That's a trigger for us. We all eat fast. Shane: I suffer from it right now.Scott: I still do. I've been home nine years, and I eat faster than most people. I'm in and out like that. Shane: [laughs] Kiana: So, I kind of compiled a lot of triggers that I identified as being posttraumatic effects of incarceration. Scott: From your stints in the cell blocks--[crosstalk] Kiana: Yes. Smell, sounds, certain things that I touch, certain things that touch me. Certain people that get around. I can't let nobody sit behind me while I'm in the car, if I'm in a movie theater. I can't go to a club. Like, a lot of those things were affecting me. During COVID-- this is when my father came into place. During COVID, I said, "You know what? The only way I'm going to understand my problem--" because I know it's a problem, but when I look around, I'm like, "Well, shit. What is normal? I'm not normal, but I see this dude here. He never been nowhere, but he more fucked up than me. He got issues. He got problems. You've been on here forever, and you calling me every day asking me for $20, $15, your daughter need shoes." Scott: Not Shane. Kiana: No. I'm just saying in general.Scott: I just want to clarify in case--[crosstalk] [laughter] Scott: Shane is a mooch. [laughs] Damn.Kiana: Just kind of figure it out, I traveled around Louisiana, I talked to over 275 individuals, and we talked about anything from-- and all of them were formerly incarcerated people.Scott: That's when 40--Kiana: That's when 40 for 40 Worldwide came into, during COVID.Shane: That's dope. Kiana: I knocked on doors. I took the camera to meet them where they were. We're going to talk about where you came from to become who you are today. Every individual that I talked to, they talk about every situation that I've experienced, situations that I may stumble across in the future. They gave me possible solutions that I could pull logic from. I'm like, "Damn, what can I do with this project? Okay, we're going to name it 40 for 40 Worldwide because I'm going to pull 40 of the most influential pieces out of this space, and I'm going to build a campaign in Louisiana that will allow people to come home and holistically heal." Whether it be through arts, whether it be through song, whether it be through poetry, whether it be through broadcast, whether it be through construction, whether it be through welding, whether it be through any mechanism, I feel we can do that as a channel. We can do that as a body of individuals. 40 for 40 Worldwide was to amplify the voices of formerly incarcerated people that have been through horrendous events in their life while serving time, ultimately gaining momentum to build 40 other individuals in 40 other states to implement some type of federal legislation that will add people returning home from incarceration into a protected class. Because there are over 40,000 collateral consequences that stop you from getting a job, from going to school, from getting insurance, from going to real estate school. There's so much that hinders you. It seems like people returning home from incarceration is the only social group that America still has permission to openly hate. Scott: I got denied for life insurance. Can't even get life insurance. Kiana: You see what I'm saying?Beatty: Yeah.Kiana: So, how can we humanize this space? In Louisiana, one out of every three individuals have been impacted by incarceration.Shane: Yes. Kiana: And we right here, three out of five, I don't know if the cameraman has a buddy or sister or brother or even if he'd been to prison. Cameraman: I'm just lucky I ain't been. [crosstalk] [laughter] Scott: Going back to the solitary thing, how long would you say in your 17 years that you spent just in solitary? Not in dormitories, but solitary. Kiana: Solitary confinement, out of 17 years, I've spent probably eight and a half. Close to nine. Scott: In solitary? Years? Kiana: Yes. Scott: Damn.Kiana: In Camp J, I spent close to 19 months. That was just from 1998 to 2000. When I first made it to Angola, me being a juvenile, they put me in the cell, they let me out to go into the dog pen for a while, and that was basically for a year. After that, minor offenses, because now I'm a boy transforming into a man in the man institution.Scott: You've got prove something.Kiana: It's not really proving it. It's just making sure that they don't prove me. I'm not here to prove who I am. Beatty: Preventive maintenance.Kiana: Yes. That's the type of person that I have been, is that I'm not here to prove that I'm a man. I'm here to prove that you're not going to fuck with me.Beatty: Yeah. Kiana: You know why? Because much respect is given, much respect is required. That's how I walk in life. I can have a relationship with Shane, and I can have a relationship with Scott. At the same time, my relationship with Shane and Scott is going to be identical because y'all deal with me identical. You feel what I'm saying? I'm not going to differentiate anything dealing with any situation in life. When I first went to Angola, my first time in the field, they called me Looney Tune. My number was 372220, I'll never forget it. I was at the end of the line. We in a line of 375 people do stuff with tools on their hand, and every time that man look around, they was [mimicking a shotgun] because I'm in the back trying to keep up. "Man, that dude crazy. Come here, Looney Tune. They're going to shoot you." Scott: Oh, the guards [crosstalk] shotguns--[crosstalk] Kiana: Yeah, because I can't keep up with the hose. I got locked up, every day is my first out in the field, I can't keep up with the hose. Shane: What did you say, Deuce Deuce? Kiana: That mean they lined up in tools. Beatty: Okay. I knew that. Kiana: You're not that lame. Scott: For the viewers.Kiana: For the viewers.Scott: For the viewers out there that don't know, when you go to Louisiana Department of Corrections State Penitentiary, you go onto the field when you get there.Kiana: You're picking cotton, man. Scott: Actually, we got Fat on here the other day, and he told his story about how they tried to make him go out there and pick cotton. Kiana: You're picking cotton, man, or you're going to ride like Fat.[laughter] Kiana: I'm telling you.Shane: As a [crosstalk] you're the number one.Cameraman: Camp J was so brutal.Kiana: That they shut it down. Cameraman: Yes. They closed--[crosstalk] Kiana: I had a hand in that.Scott: Talk about it. Kiana: I had a hand in that, man. So, it was a campaign. That was in 2013. Beatty: We're talking about the shutting down of Camp J if you didn't hear.Scott: Camp J is solitary confinement at Angola.Shane: It started in 2008. Kiana: Yeah. The campaign started in '08 but it actually got shut down in '13. Basically, man, just being able to lay in those cells and be like, "Man, this shit ain't right. I wish I had some people standing out fighting and fussing for me." When I came home, my first objective is, how can I get engaged? How can I get involved? What can I do? Man, I really would like to salute again. It's going to be a shoutout hour. You heard me shout out VOTE, Norris Henderson. Matter of fact, Norris's brother just got killed, man. So, we're going to lift him up, little daddy, man. Salute the little daddy. We lost a soldier. We lost a soldier, man. Definitely, I would like to give VOTE a shoutout in the space. They've been holding it down.Scott: Long time doing fighting work that most people, A, don't want to do, but, B, they can't do. Those guys, all formerly incarcerated, are leading the pack on criminal legal reform work in Louisiana. They got their hands in every-- dang, every piece of legislation that goes in front of state capitol for--[crosstalk] Shane: They're built to do that. Kiana: Definitely. Scott: They just opened up the little building too, right? Kiana: Yeah, definitely this year. I was a volunteer for VOTE when I first got into the game. Like in 2012, 2013, we did a lot of work around restoring the voting rights for formerly incarcerated people in Louisiana. Act 636.Scott: Then, they had a campaign to end solitary confinement in Camp J. Kiana: Well, no, this was kind of before. The Camp J space, I was on some freelance stuff. I partnered with The Village Keepers. That was the name of Jefferson Parish. I partnered with The Village Keepers, and they were doing some work around solitary confinement in Jefferson Parish. The work that I did toward Camp J was basically I told my story twice, how it was inhumane and how I laid in the cells and really like phantom and wondered if people were really out there putting in work. I didn't have the opportunity to speak at the capitol, but I knocked on some doors and passed out some flyers, got people involved, did a lot of work toward that end, but that was basically a backend thing because DOC was ready to kind of make amends with that space. Man, it was a dungeon.Shane: [crosstalk] -reparation for people. Kiana: Yeah, it was hell. What they did in '08 was they shut down the Boot tiers in 2008, they shut down the Shark tiers. The Shark tiers, they were like cells inside of a cell. You've got the cells and then you had had the big old Boot that slammed-- boom, slamming the front with the little trace slot right there. That's all you had to really move around. In 80--Scott: Wait, wait. Shane: In other states.Kiana: Oh, yeah, definitely. Scott: I'm trying to picture my own experience in solitary. When I've been on it, it's a cell block-- Is it something different than that? I haven't been on Camp J--[crosstalk]Kiana: This is the view. A lot of people may not picture this, but you can get it. If you're walking down the Beavers working cell block, imagine you take half of the hall out, where the cell doors are originally there, you take half of that tier out and you bring that out further with concrete blocks. Like a concrete steel block will come all the way out. On that concrete block, you have a steel door that slams, boom, with the [mimics locking]. You come through that door, and then you walk down that narrow hall, maybe halfway from here to like that door, and then the cells open and then you go on the cells. So, they lock the cells. Scott: So, they don't rack them back--[crosstalk] Kiana: No, they don't rack them back until they come to the cell and then handcuff and shackle you. Then, they come step out of that boot door and rack them back close, now you just in the space and then they open up the big door. Shane: In other states, states like Illinois and Chicago, Indiana, they call them two-door cells, because you have your first door, open that up. When they walk in, it's like maybe 6ft of space, officer walks to that cell, handcuff you, shackle you and everything and then leaves you out. Scott: Mind you, if something were to happen in your cell, whether it's medical or if you're sharing, I don't know how Camp J is, do they share [crosstalk] space?Kiana: That's one-man cell. Scott: If something was going down in the cell and not only are you behind bars, but you're also behind this barricaded force, you have no way of getting in touch with the guards to come, "Hey, I'm having a heart attack."Kiana: Can't even hear you. Scott: They can't hear you. So, you're just left to die. A lot of people that are on Camp J are awaiting trials. Especially if they're high-profile cases and different things like that, they might not necessarily be guilty of the crime, but they're sitting back there and they can possibly die because, A, all types of things happen medically when they become incarcerated.Kiana: Oh, man. They were coming through the walls. Shane: Breaking cinderblocks. Kiana: Coming through the walls. Busting through the walls.Scott: Who was? Kiana: The inmates. They bust through, they could bust through the walls. Scott: They come get you? Kiana: Yes. Scott: Oh, wow. Kiana: If they want you, they bust, they coming through the walls. I'm talking about there's so many times that they had to replaster the cinderblocks. Scott: So, they just going to get moles coming through?Kiana: Moles? Shane: No.Scott: How they getting through--[crosstalk] Kiana: You can use--[crosstalk] Shane: [crosstalk] Scott: Oh, you're talking about the guy on the side--[crosstalk] Kiana: In 1998, they took the block-- you know in the cellblock, they have the flap where you put your stuff in there? You take that up out of there, and you can go through the wall. Scott: No shit. Kiana: Yeah, you can go through the wall. Scott: Dudes are getting jugged up.Kiana: Going through the wall. Shane: Getting raped.Kiana: Listen to me, going through the wall.Scott: That's wild, man. Kiana: Listen, man, that is a world inside of a world, man. So, being mindful enough, and that's what I mean by, you guys are survivors. I didn't acknowledge my self-worth. I didn't acknowledge my value. But I think my job now is to pump that into you guys, because y'all are survivors, and y'all are experts in the way that this criminal justice world is about to be reformed. We cannot continue to allow people to plan meals for tables that they never slid a seat under. How can you give me cheese and I'm lactose intolerant? I don't eat cheese and ice cream. I can't deal with that. But you're still putting that on my table, and you wonder why I got diarrhea. Shane: Because you just don't know.[laughter] Kiana: You wonder why I got diarrhea. Scott: That's a nice analogy. Kiana: You wonder why my communities are underresourced. I got to go find it. I can't buy toilet paper, so I'm going to come shit on your lawn. [laughter] Kiana: I'm just trying to figure like that, because that's what we got to understand, man. Life is about who we are. We are life. We are the movers and shakers. We create every sphere, every business. Like the United States of America is a 501(c)(3) organization. It is a nonprofit. We bought into that. When we were born, our family signed our birth certificates and Social Security cards and put us into this entity. We have to understand, we need to pull control of that entity. Use our democracy, get out there and vote and put people in positions who have your best interests at heart.Don't just come to my house [chuckles] and shoot me some sugar. And now I'm walking, I've got a banana in my tailpipe. I'm blowing up every time I go somewhere. It's crazy. And that's what we're allowing, that's what we have been allowing. And I hope that people understand that this work I do, I can't put a tag on it, bro. I do everything. I do reform. I do litigation. I do policy. I do programs. I do training. I hold peer support groups, like the same groups that we held inside with Project Detour. Beatty: Shoutout.Kiana: Shoutout Project Detour. That was started in RCC. Scott: Turn around, show the back. Can you turn around?Kiana: I could, but we're going to wait [crosstalk] shot at the end.Beatty: We'll put that later. Scott: Like a whole baseball player. Kiana: Definitely, man.Scott: He did homerun.Kiana: But, yeah, this was an organization that we started in Rayburn, man, in RCC. Scott: Okay. Kiana: We started this in RCC, and we've seen the impact on the individuals on the tier with it.Scott: RCC is Rayburn Correctional Center in Angie, Louisiana. It's a state penitentiary. Kiana: Yes. We've seen the impact on individuals on the compound, people that didn't give a rattin' ass about nothing. Scott: Give us an example of one of the guys.Kiana: Reggie. Scott: Quetan?Kiana: Yes. Reggie was in the block. As a matter of fact, Reggie is in Austin right now.Scott: Okay. I knew he moved out there.Kiana: Yeah, he's staying in Austin. I've seen him when I was on a fellowship with REDF. Shoutout, REDF, that's my accelerator teaching me how to turn my business into a business. Yeah, I needed that. Just floating on the wings, man. I want to say, yeah, man. Ooh. I did like 80 hours of training in like four days. But anyway--Scott: Who is this?Kiana: REDF Accelerator. Scott: Is that a program or a guy? Kiana: That's a program. My fellowship. I'm part of a fellowship. REDF Accelerator. Scott: Okay, cool. Kiana: So, yeah, definitely. Partnering with 18 other entrepreneurs across the state. They chose us out of like-- 500 employment social enterprises is what we're calling our business at this point. Just trying to figure out how can we figure out those key performance indicators, man, and make sure that double line bottom is on point. Scott: You said you ran into Reggie.Kiana: Yeah, I ran into Reggie, man. And Reggie now is a photographer. He's doing some great work. Shane: Wow.Kiana: He's doing some great work, man. Reg is really holding it down. Scott: You ran into Reg at Rayburn.Kiana: Reg was an asshole. Scott: Yeah. Kiana: You know, Reg stayed in and out the blocks. Reg will fight. Reg will curse you out. Reg will jump on the free man. He'll end up on Snow when he's housing on Wind.Scott: Snow is the working cellblocks. Kiana: Yeah. Shoutout Rayburn. But, yeah, definitely. Once we started Project Detour, started with Pat, Vladi, all of us was the board in that space. We've seen how Reggie-- there was countless other Reggies that was a part of that. We've seen a development in that space. Once we start showing them that they can take ownership in their own personal development, we've seen it, understanding that we're not just going to talk about Sigmund Freud and Eric Burns. We're not going to talk about the three personality traits. We know you understand what they are, but this is who created them and this is how they created them. And we can do the same.Once we've seen that, built that brotherhood, and Reggie's turned from a writeup every week to a writeup and no writeups in two, three years. So, we see that it's working. We see that they start taking ownership and accountability for their own actions. Why can't that be replicated out here? Scott: That's what you're doing now.Kiana: I came home in 2011, man. Project Detour was founded in 2013, once I figured out how business was supposed to look.Scott: So, you came home in 2011. Tell us about your transition out, some of the challenges you had, and then let's kind of talk about all of-- this dude's got his hand in 100 different pots that he created. I'm not talking about pots that other people created that he's jumping into. He created those pots. So, let's talk about that. Tell us about the challenges you faced coming home. Kiana: I always was a smart guy, I could say. I know how to read and write. So, the challenges that I faced were systemic challenges because the physical challenges, I was able to maneuver around them. For an example, I came home on a Wednesday. Friday, I was working as a crane mechanic. Never touched a crane a day in my life. Don't know what a crane looked like, but I was hired as a crane operator. Riding down Fourth Street, turned down Engineers Row, see [unintelligible 00:45:21] "crane operators, hiring now. Crane operators, hiring now." I pulled into H&E. Shoutout to H&E Equipment. Pulled into H&E parking lots, sat down. One guy comes out, I said, "Hey, man, what do you do?" He said, "I'm a crane operator." I said, "What y'all operating?" And he said, "Man, [unintelligible 00:45:38] it's a walk 7200s, 41000s, 4000s." [laughter] Kiana: I'm like, "All right, cool." Scott: I got that. Kiana: I go home--Scott: I got my driver's license. [laughter] Kiana: I just got my driver's license. I'm 34 years old, man, I just got my driver's license for the first time in my life. I'm happy. So, I go home, YouTube University. YouTube University. I jumped on YouTube.Beatty: Shoutout to YouTube University. Kiana: Jumped on YouTube, man. Put in "manual to [unintelligible 00:46:03] 4100s, 41000, 7200s, 72,000s." They told me, man, like, "This is what you do. This is how you start it. This is how you grease your lines. Check your lines before you get in there." Next day, I went over there. I went back to H&E, filled out an application. Have you ever been convicted of a felony? I checked no. If I check yeah, they're not even going to talk to me. Right? Scott: Right. I don't blame you.Kiana: Yeah, I check no.Scott: I'm all for it. I support it. Kiana: I check no. They took my application that day, they called me back the next day. Actually, I was at the head, because minority crane operators are nine and void. Scott: High demand. Kiana: Yes, nine and void. Really, really nine and void. I ain't no shit about no crane. I know you can make $50 to operate the crane for 10 minutes. Shane: Yes, sir. Kiana: I didn't know that. $50 an hour, and you up there 12 hours a day, but you're only working for 10 minutes, 15 minutes. They called me, and I went in the next day. I had my nice shoes on, my suit, I'm job ready. I'm ready for this. I'm prepared. And that's what a man like-- you could start at 41? I'm like, "Yeah, I can start." He said, "Come on, let's go. We don't need the interview. I just want to see if you could do it." So, we went out there, I walked around the crane, looked up under it, popped the bottom where the lines were at. I always checked the grease lines. When I did that, said, "Hey, man, we're going to get you trained."Scott: We got one professional. Kiana: That was basically all it took. I worked there for my first two and a half, three years.Scott: Let me ask you a question. The no box on the application, that never came up?Kiana: It never came up until my passion of what I wanted to do in life. It started really burning me because I started getting frustrated with waking up in the morning.Scott: Working for somebody else?Kiana: Not really working for somebody else. I'm not aligning myself with what I'm supposed to be doing. Scott: Okay, I feel you. I understand that.Kiana: I'm making good money. At this point, I'm a crane mechanic. I went to training. I just started getting some things to really put me in a position to be this operator. But I'm waking up in the morning and I'm like--Shane: You're not happy.Beatty: Yeah.Scott: You don't feel like you feel--[crosstalk] Kiana: I'm in the tool room and the conversations that I was having a year ago, I'm not having these conversations with these people. I'm not feeling it. I'm starting to see myself drift more into Project Detour, because now I'm starting to take my check, and I'm taking young kids in my community, and we go and get some chicken and sit under the park and talk for 45 minutes, asking them what they need. Now, I'm taking my check, and now I'm helping them get school uniforms and putting shoes on their feet and attending the football games and trying to help out with the coaches and talking to the students.Then, I started actually getting in tune with the courts because a lot of my young brothers had records. I had to sign them off on my [unintelligible [00:44:53] because their daddy in jail and their mom out on drugs. So, I started seeing that I was needed in the space that I wasn't occupying. I was getting money. I'm straight. I'm driving a Range Rover, this is in '13, I got a 12 Range Rover, just came out, of BMW. I'm doing good. Scott: Bought by H&E crane money? Kiana: Yes, definitely. Shane: Mechanic money that is.Kiana: But when you're not aligned with your values in life, man, you can have all the riches in the world, it's not going to sit right with you. It's not going to feel because right now, man, I feel I'm in the best place in my life that I have been in my life, and I look at every day as me getting better than I was yesterday, because my worst day out here subsides the best day I had inside of there. Shane: That's right. Kiana: It oversees, it just demolishes. Scott: From H&E, you just said, "Hey, look, I'm going to--" [crosstalk] Kiana: Yeah, I've got to go. I've got to start what I want to do. I want to start my passion. Scott: So, what was next? Kiana: So, Project Detour was next. Project Detour, full-fledged. Got the board, got the bylaws, got the policies and procedures in order, got everybody on the card. We just started doing a lot of mentoring in the city, and then I went back to school. Now, it's me running the organization, attending Delgado Community College full time. Shoutout Delgado. Shane: Big shoutout--[crosstalk] Scott: What's their mascot?Kiana: The Patriot. Scott: The Patriot. Kiana: Yeah, they're a patriot. Scott: Delgado Patriot. Kiana: If I got you wrong, shoutout Delgado. [laughter] Kiana: Something like that a buccaneer or a patriot. But, yeah, definitely I'm getting my criminal justice degree. Actually, I have eight more credits that I need, so I'll be graduating next year. Scott: Are you still going right now? Kiana: Yeah, I'm attending SUNO right now. Shoutout SUNO. It's a lot that I'm doing, man. I'm trying to better myself in all aspects, not just my personal outside life, but my internal being. All of that comes into the space, and I don't think that I'm going to be fully, fully healed until I get exonerated. So, that's what I'm working on right now.Shane: Fulfilling that passion, that burning desire. Kiana: I'm working with the district attorney now with Jefferson Parish. We've been having maybe a few meetings, a couple of meetings, and that's how I want to close the film with him saying, "Yeah, Kiana, we think that you have done everything that you've need to need to do in the course of your life, man, and we want to honor your wishes." [crosstalk] Scott: Are you working with--? Kiana: Paul Connick? Scott: No, the organization that does the--Kiana: The Innocent Project? Scott: Yeah.Kiana: Funny story about that, man. The Innocent Project, they don't work with individuals who's free. Scott: Oh, they only do incarcerated.Kiana: Yes. That was a problem that I really didn't understand when I went to them, because, trust me, I probably ruffled every feather in the state of Louisiana trying to see what can I do, until I was just like, "You know what? Just keep walking in your purpose. It's not what you're doing, is where you're going." That's the overall piece of this entire synopsis, man. I think that's when I'm going to get completely holistically healed. Well, I could be able to get exonerated. I've done a lot of work and then once I get exonerated, I want to continue to be a force. Scott: I want to ask you this. I'm completely guilty of all the crimes that I committed. So, when I was in prison, I had to-- go ahead.Beatty: Allegedly committed. [laughter] Scott: No, I did all that. Kiana: He was convicted, so it's over. Scott: It's over. I was in prison, and I had to swallow the pill, "Okay, you've done a lot of dumb shit and I'm paying for it." But I can't imagine the mental that a person must go through in your situation that spent 17 years in prison and not have done the crime. Dude, I don't want you to go into great detail because I know, but what's the mental process for that? Kiana: It was basically piggybacking what you just said. I have done a lot of shit in my life. I wasn't a choir boy when I was out here. A lot of things that I didn't do, it shouldn't have amount to that sentence, that such severe sentence. But just being open minded, you can imprison me physically, but you can't entrap my mind, that was kind of like the cage bird sings. I strive myself on education because I was so uneducated sitting in this trial. Only thing I could understand is objection, overrule, sustained, objection, overrule, sustained. What does that mean? I know when they say that, the judge say something that counters what they say. So, I felt stupid. It felt like I was in Charlie Brown. [onomatopoeia] That's how my entire trial felt. And my trial was like nine days, the first one. Might I add that it was a non-unanimous jury? Shout out to the UJC. Scott: [crosstalk] -nonunanimous jury. You want to explain what that means real quick for our layman? Kiana: Yeah, for the laymen. Non-unanimous jury, I was found guilty on two counts of first-degree murder, non-unanimously, meaning that 1 person out of the 12 said that I was innocent, saying that the state did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, which the law states that you should be judged by a jury of your peers and unanimously deliberated upon. Louisiana and Oregon were the last two states that upheld the non-unanimous jury pool, which means that 10 people can say that you're guilty, and two people can say that they don't believe that you're guilty, and you still can be sent to prison for life. And that happened to me twice. My first trial was 11-1. I was found guilty and sentenced to life. In 1998, with the great help of Christopher Aberle, my appellate attorney, shoutout Chris, He put together a wonderful brief, and my case was remanded and set aside for further proceedings.I was sent back to Jefferson Paris, tried again for second-degree murder, and I was found guilty again. That jury deliberations were 10-2. Two people said this time that, "Oh no, he didn't do that." And 10 people said, "Yes." I was found guilty again on a lesser charge, which was manslaughter. They sentenced me to 34 years under Act 138, which gave me 17 years inside of a penal institution and 17 years remaining on parole. Honestly, we have right now currently over 5700 people that are incarcerated, serving life or high numbers on a non-unanimous jury. That PJI, shoutout PJI, Promise of Justice Initiative, they're working closely trying to get those individuals home on that. In 2018, I had the-- man, that was one of the peak campaigns in my existence. Scott: I do want to talk about the documentary that I had the fortunate privilege of watching.Kiana: Kiana's Mission. Scott: Yeah, man. I said at the beginning of this podcast, it takes to make me cry. My wife would say different. She says I'm a big teddy bear. I don't believe that. I believe I'm a big lion. But I did, and I teared up and it touched me on multiple spots in the documentary. I want you to talk about that a little bit and then talk about 40 for 40 and then Roots. Just tell everybody about what inspired the documentary and how long you've been doing it. Kiana: Definitely. Kiana's Mission is a documentary, like I said a little bit earlier, it's a story about resilience. It's a story about overcoming the hurdles of life and coming out the end still feeling prosperous. I've been shooting this documentary maybe about-- what we in '22 now? So, maybe about nine years, having the ability to get introduced to a camera. When I came home, I learned that the camera is therapeutic, being able to sit down and tell pieces about you and not feel vulnerable, because eventually somebody may see this and it may help change their lives.What I did was I just walked around with the camera with me all day taking basic photos, and then I was like, "You know what, bro? I think it's time that you start putting your life in perspective. How can you get your story heard?" Because everybody has a story. Not everybody makes it to cable. Everybody has their intention. So, just having the ability to be in a position to where my life work, it needs to be televised. So, I'm working with Roots of Renewal. Shoutout Roots. Shane: Shoutout big Roots.Kiana: I'm the ED over there. Scott: What's Roots? Kiana: Roots is a reentry organization geared to our young men, 18 to 26, reentering home from incarceration. Scott: Is that in New Orleans? Kiana: Yes, New Orleans. Actually, we're in three different parishes. We're in New Orleans. We're in Jefferson and we're in Terrebonne. Just being available for those young men. What we do is we purchase blighted properties throughout the city's area, rehab them, give the guys job skills so that they may be productive in the construction field if they choose to.Beatty: That's awesome. Kiana: Yeah, definitely. Scott: They get any type of certification? Kiana: Yes, definitely. So, I pride myself on training.Scott: Okay.Kiana: I think that we can't go through life without the proper tools. Once they come to Roots, what we do-- In the documentary, you can see that I have that camera setting up, interviewing my young men, because that's the first initial engagement. I want you to understand that I want to know how you were when you first came to me. And then throughout the middle course of this pace, we're going to do another one, just to do a recap, a summary on what you have done. I use the Poverty Stoplight method. Shout out Dr. Martin Burt. He's running for president of Paraguay. Man, I got you, you're my dog. I'm on your team. Beatty: You've got my vote.Kiana: You already know. I was introduced to the Poverty Stoplight, Dr. Martin Burt, maybe in about 2017. Scott: Is he from New Orleans? Kiana: No. He's from Paraguay. Scott: Oh, Paraguay. That's the country?Kiana: Yeah. Scott: Where is that at? I'm geographically challenged. Kiana: That's like in the Middle East over there by Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, but not in that area. Scott: Oh. He's running for the president of that country.Kiana: Of that country, yes. He's already the secretary.Scott: Hey, my boy got president friends. Kiana: Yeah, definitely. I'm actually in his book. You could go check it out Who Owns Poverty. Kiana Calloway is in that space. He's a professor at Georgetown University. Scott: I'm going to get your autograph before you leave.Kiana: Oh, man. I got some things--Scott: [crosstalk] -now before you blow really big.Kiana: I've got something on the horizon, man.Scott: I bet you do.Kiana: So, working with Dr. Martin Burt, we sat down, and he told me about how broke poverty down into six dimensions. Income and infrastructure, education and employment, housing and motivation, and integrity and insurance. It shows how we can put these indicators into a life map so that you can actually see what poverty looks like. Instead of feeling it, now you can see it. Scott: How does it work as far as showing the guys? Is it a progress chart or something? Kiana: Yeah, definitely. It gives back in data on-- it comes into the red, yellow, and green. What I did was I restructured that model because the way that poverty looks in Paraguay, it don't look this way in Uptown New Orleans.Shane: That's right. Kiana: What we did was we developed the New Orleans spectrum, I'm the parenting hub here in the United States that had this data tool. Anyway, so what we did was we identified, if you're coming home from incarceration, it's practically like you're bankrupt. You're coming home after filing bankruptcy. You have nothing. Income, transportation, housing, internet access, a clean bed to sleep in, all of those are indicators of poverty, but we don't understand that, so when we come home--Shane: And it's vital.Kiana: Very vital. They're vital to you reentering, and they're vital to recidivism. If you start with Roots of Renewal in the 26 survey, and out of the 26 questions, you have 25 reds, we got work to do. Like, we got work to do. Scott: So, they fill out an assessment. Kiana: Yes. Scott: And then, you track their progress based on that assessment. Kiana: As we work forward, the tools that they need.Scott: [crosstalk] -red to yellow to green. Kiana: Reds to yellows to greens. Scott: Nice. Kiana: We try to achieve that in four months because Roots of Renewal is a 16 week job training program. Inside of that program, which Project Detour, is over the programming side of it, it gives personal development courses, financial literacy courses. It gives critical thinking, transaction analysis. We deal with the rehabilitation of the being because--Shane: Of the individual.Kiana: Of the individual. We need you to be in the right space if we want to send you to this job. So, we've got to help you build this resume. We partner with local construction companies throughout those areas so that long-term employment is definitely in the realms.Scott: After the program.Kiana: Exactly. Along with lifetime membership, alumni perks, because once you get in the Roots, man, you're a brother now. It's not that you just come through a program or a project. No, you got my seven numbers. You could call my seven numbers at any given time, and they do that right now. Scott: It's awesome, man. Kiana: Yeah, definitely. So, that's Roots of Renewal. I began to be the ED at Roots of Renewal in 2019. I started there as the programs manager, just dealing with the programs with Project Detour. I was contracted in through Amy and Brendan, who were the actual founders of this space, as the programs manager. I definitely just dealt with peer support groups. Like, how can we develop a curriculum that's going to show the impact of these individuals actually reentering? We got a non-recidivism rate of 98.9%. Only one brother, and that's Javelle. He comes home next month, I believe. Shoutout, Javelle, we got you when you get out here, man. Just trying to stay active, implying myself into a space the way I know that I'm desperately needed. Scott: Man, you're doing it. Also, an Instagram page that caught my eye that you also set up, and it's a project that you work on 40 for 40. Tell the audience about the 40 for 40, A, what they need to look up, and then, B, what prompted it and how that went.Kiana: 40 for 40 Worldwide. Definitely, man. Like I said, during COVID me, Durado Brooks-- Shoutout, Durado. Mark Kerry. Shoutout, Mark. We traveled Louisiana, man, and we had an opportunity of interviewing over 400 individuals that's formerly incarcerated. Over 400 formerly incarcerated entrepreneurs. A lot of these individuals have their own businesses, started their own businesses. We went to donut shops, we went to sandwich shops. We went to Twisted Wings, Twisted Burgers. We went out there while people were cutting grass and washing cars. Everywhere that they were, when we say we were in their space, we were pulling up on them for like an hour. We had the conversation, man. "Tell me what it's like after incarceration?" Man, the stories were beautiful. I just had to try to figure out how can we take that collage and turn it into power because our stories are powerful within themselves. So, during COVID, me, Durado, Mark, we sat down on the videos, we kept going over them. Actually, this year, I said, "Man, we need to do something with this. Let's drop a Black History Month project." So, that's where the Instagram came from. We drop one story every day of Black History Month-Scott: For 28 days. Kiana: For 28 days, you're going to see 28, and we're going to do the same thing next Black History Month. We're going to try to replicate that. Scott: It's like an annual thing. Kiana: Yes. It don't make sense to just have it once. We correlated stories, we drop one every day, and we correlated these stories of impacted survivors today. If you could read the actual captions, we're putting them in the spaces of W. E. B. Du Bois. We put them in the spaces with Medgar Evers. We put them in the spaces with Fred Hampton. Like, we're putting them in the same energy to let them know that man, the narrative that our ancestors were speaking-- and I don't say ancestors, I'm talking like, 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 60 years ago. The same narrative that they were speaking, we're still saying that same narrative. I think that we need to wake up and understand, how can we put a face to pain? They went through a lot, but they're overcomers. They're survivors. So, yeah, go punch into Instagram, 40 for 40 Worldwide. If you are in any other state that has a jail, contact us, because we're coming into your state. Jim: All right. I don't ever do this, by the way. I normally sit back behind that camera unless I'm running my podcast. But I'm going to tell you what you inspired me--Scott: What's your podcast?Jim: Local Leaders: The Podcast, Bloody Angola. I produce Real Life Real Crime with Woody Overton and got a bunch more coming out. I've listened to everything that you said, and inspiring. Inspiring shit. I'll tell you-- Kiana: Appreciate it.Shane: Real shit too. Jim: Yes, exactly. What impresses me the most about you is you said something a few minutes ago. You give back a lot. A true leader gives back. We are raised in our lives to believe being first in anything is the leader, winning. No, giving back is winning. You have done nothing but have people-- in my opinion, people try to hold you down, and it seems like the harder you get held down, the harder you push back. And that's an innate quality. It's rare and impressive, man. I want to obviously shout you out for that. But I have one question. Before all this happened in your life, we