Podcast appearances and mentions of patti dobrowolski

From Broadway actor, to drama therapist for county jails, a four-times Tedx speaker and now a Live Illustrator, Patti Dobrowolski is a rare, creative talent that has befriended reinvention…And she now helps others to do the same, designing memorable, interactive workshops using illustration to visualise new realities, aspirations and futures. Because when you draw your dreams? That is where the magic starts to happen.This is a wise, worldly conversation that explores the depths of authentic creativity in its many guises, filled with golden aha moments and Patti's infectious energy. What a privilege to hear her stories, experiences and share in her life lessons!Find out about:Patti's personal and professional experience in the intentional use of drama for therapeutic gainHow visualisation techniques can help participants to embody their desired futureThe art of breaking habitual patterns and adopting fresh, new perspectivesHow to use AI effectively in facilitation to save yourself timeThe career mistakes we made as beginners - that you can avoid!Links:Watch the video recording of this episode on YouTube.Connect to Patti Dobrowolski:LinkedInWebsiteSupport the show✨✨✨Subscribe to our newsletter to receive a free 1-page summary of each upcoming episode directly to your inbox, or explore our eBooks featuring 50-episode compilations for even more facilitation insights. Find out more:https://workshops.work/podcast✨✨✨Did you know? You can search all episodes by keyword to find exactly what you need via our Buzzsprout page!

Have you ever used a picture to change your life? My special guest Patii Dobrowolski shares stories about drawing for everyone from the Dalai Lama to The Gates Foundation. She convinced me that a picture is powerful when she went to the white board in my office and drew my future.

Are you trapped in the shadows of your past, unable to see the bright future that awaits? In this episode, we dive deep with renowned 4xTEDx speaker and founder of Up Your Creative Genius, Patti Dobrowolski. Discover powerful strategies to release the grip of your past and unlock your potential for creating an extraordinary future. Learn how to break free from limiting beliefs, rewrite your story, and design a life you love. Don't let your past dictate your destiny! Tune in now and start your journey to a brighter tomorrow. Ready to break free from the past and embrace your future? Listen to the full episode now and start your transformation!

Join us in this compelling episode as we dive deep into the struggles that hold you back in both your business and personal life. Patti Dobrowolski, the founder of Up Your Creative Genius and a true powerhouse in the world of personal development. Patti is not only a critically acclaimed comic performer, author, and business consultant but also a three-time TEDx speaker with close to 6 million views on her signature talk, "Draw Your Future." With a background in psychology and drama therapy, Patti combines creativity and mindset to guide us through the transformative power of visualisation. In this conversation, we delve into why and how drawing your goals can help you overcome resistance in your personal and professional life. Patti shares insights on the importance of imagination, the balance between analytical thinking and visual thinking, and how to create internal alignment within your team or business to inspire success.  Patti highlights the value of building a strong network, seeking help from those who know more than we do, and fostering belief in ourselves. Ultimately, she reminds us to stay open to opportunities and challenges as valuable learning experiences. Join us for a dynamic and inspiring conversation that will ignite your creative genius and empower you to shape your future.   Key Highlights:   Patti's journey from a TEDx speaker to a renowned author and business consultant. The role of imagination as the most crucial tool for personal development. Patti reveals how visualising your goals can break through resistance, offering a lifeline to those frustrated by financial setbacks and business hurdles. Creating internal alignment within teams and businesses to inspire improvement. Embracing quiet moments and reframing busyness as a deflection tool. The importance of speaking your truth, shedding inner criticism, and practising active listening. Envisioning the future, taking bold actions, and believing in your ability to succeed. Building a strong network and seeking help from those who know more. Staying open to opportunities and embracing every experience as a chance to learn and grow.   To find out how Fitness Marketing Agency can help your Fitness Business, book a demo call using the link below:  https://fitnessmarketingagency.com/discoverycall?sl=podcastshownotes    For more information, head over to our Podcast Page: https://fitnessmarketingagency.com/fmapodcast   Connect with Fitness Marketing Agency on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fitnessmarketingagency/ Connect with Patti on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/

“A crisis highlights all of our fault lines. We can pretend that we have nothing to learn, or we can take this opportunity to own the truth and make a better future for ourselves and others.” - Brené Brown Many of you know that I am on a trip to thank all the people who have massively helped me during the difficult challenges of my life, most especially with my wife's recent passing. I invite you to come along as I spread Hannah's legacy to make a difference in people's lives. This is not only a journey of gratitude and love, but more so of transformation. Join me on my first stop in Texas, USA while I visit Patti Dobrowolski. She is a live illustrator and speaker who changes people's lives by helping them tap into their creativity. Listen to our talk and learn how you can be the best version of yourself. Transform yourself today and live a better, happier life tomorrow. Highlights: ⚡️ You are helping yourself when you help someone. ⚡️ Love is the highest service. ⚡️ It is with other people that you step into your greatness. ⚡️ The best way to create your future is to be intentional. ⚡️ Things happen because they are meant to. ⚡️ You make yourself a better person when you start to refocus to serve. Important stories:

“Just get on with it.” - Hannah Cohen Are you wondering how the next chapter of your life is going to be, especially after very difficult circumstances? Could it be your grandest adventure? Just like you, I have been and continue to be in the most challenging times of my life. However, I have been in training. I am now ready to be more intentional and take on another challenge as I continue my journey and fulfill my legacy. Listen in and discover how you can change yourself from the inside out and have the determination to face head-on whatever lies ahead. Be inspired by my wife's amazing life story. An epic adventure is waiting for you. Get on with it. Make today the greatest day of your life. Highlights: ⚡️ There are 5 stages to the grieving process. ⚡️ We can choose the way we think about life and what life is for. ⚡️ The greatest thing we can do is who we become based on the future that we see. ⚡️ It is always about us and never me or we.

Join LaTangela as she chats with Patti Dobrowolski on the #tanline Learn to paint your dreams in bold and see how much clearer a picture can make life out to be. Patti has traveled from Texas to share with us for #BREW week in the capital city.  Watch full episode HERE ********************************************************************************************* NEW MUSIC ALERT NEVER KNEW - LaTangela Fay NEW BOOK ALERT P.O.O.F. (Power Over Obstacles Forever) - LaTangela Fay Sherman ************************************************************************************ THE LATANGELA SHOW RADIO -  WEMX- Baton Rouge, La. Mon-Fri 10a.m.-3p.m.CST TV - WLFT - Baton Rouge, La. KGLA  - New Orleans, La. The Louisiana Film Channel YouTube - #LaTangelaFay Podcast - ALL digital platforms www.LaTangela.com  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

“Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand.” - Albert Einstein Did you know that you have a brilliance in you that you can tap into to be great? We all want to succeed or to be better because, as human beings, that is our innate goal. However, this is quite difficult for many people as their view of themselves and the misalignment of their present and future selves hinder them. If you are one of those wanting to live a successful and great life but do not know how and are stuck in hopelessness, then this episode is for you. Let my guest, Patti Dobrowolski, enlighten you on how you can create the reality that you want by unlocking your creative genius. She is a nationally acclaimed comic performer, a 3-time TEDx speaker,  a live illustrator, and an author. Her goal is to help people improve their lives by simplifying the change process. Connect with Patti Dobrowolski through her Instagram. Get her new book Creative Genius You The Equation That Makes You Great  (Amazon US / Amazon UK) and review it to help more people turn their dreams into realities. Mark your calendar and be part of a Guinness World Record by uploading your future you illustration on February 1. Click this link for details: #WICxAnnualSummit 2023 Highlights: ⚡️To be fantastic is to bring your idea to life. ⚡️Pictures with feelings have the power to pull you into the future. ⚡️Hopelessness is part of the process of evolving into a better being. ⚡️Love makes imagination easier. ⚡️The creative genius equation is imagination x intuition + desire x drive = outcome to the infinite power Important stories: 

Can drawing help you unlock your potential? Patti Dobrowoloski thinks so — and she's made a career of proving it's true. She joins Alisha in this Season 3 kickoff to share how Broadway brought her to the boardroom, the worst rejection she ever received (and why it turned out to be a good thing), and why you should use visual goal-setting to plan your next move. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

“Wherever you go, there you are. You're always bringing your family dynamics into it, so you just have to figure out who's who in the dynamic of whatever you're experiencing in the room, and then once you know that, you'll understand what's getting triggered, and you can work together to move through it.” -Patti Dobrowolski In this episode of Control the Room, I had the pleasure of speaking with Patti Dobrowolski about her career helping teams navigate growth and change.  She starts with how her background in Theater has influenced her career.  Later, Patti shares her journey of awareness that has helped her make it easier for people to connect to themselves and us.  We then discuss how and why to include play at work.  Listen in for the steps to help bridge states of consciousness with the groups you're facilitating.   

Dan is a strategist, creative, and skilled facilitator. He is also an educator, global speaker, tech investor, and startup founder. His ethos is embedded in the More Space philosophy, to transform employees to intrapreneurs. So they are better equipped to tackle big problems. So they have the capability to create new solutions, and the confidence to put them in motion. This enables organizations to foster a culture of creative confidence and collaboration. Human-Centered Design (HCD) and Design Thinking is at the core of what we do. Our programs are centered around the More Space framework. The More Space framework incorporates the methodologies of Design Thinking, Futuring, Lean, and Agile. Talks about Innovation, Design Thinking, Human Centered Design. Timestamp 2:37 From designing things, to helping people make sense of things 7:01 Being the Gandalf to a classroom of superheroes 8:26 Using MURAL technology as a facilitator's tool 11:51 Being vulnerable builds trust in the room 16:04 Digging in and dealing with hiccups 19:05 Planning and scheduling for business - a balancing act 20:19 The birth of More Space for Light 25:11 What makes a good workshop 26:40 Self-care and the importance of sleep 31:10 Identifying the patterns and seasons of business, then making plans around it 32:56 Reclaiming a stolen focus 35:28 Motorbiking and being present in the moment 37:10 Understanding the “why” in the change process Social Media LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danlevy1979/ More Space For Light Website: https://morespaceforlight.com.au/expertise/vision-and-strategy/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/morespaceforlight/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/morespaceforlight YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbiT-qp26z40mzOynuvX6SA The Future of Now - Talkshops: https://morespaceforlight.com.au/the-future-of-now/ The Future of Now - Podcast: https://anchor.fm/the-future-of-now Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Transcript Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello Superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski. As you know, and today - oh my gosh, I have like one of my new best friends that is just incredible. And I would just say he's my new Australian best friend, because I have a best friend in Australia, and I have one in various different cities - but this one is somebody brand new, who I really, really love. He's so incredibly creative, you're gonna love him - Dan Levy, and he's with the company More Space For Light, which we're going to talk about what that means - but first, I want to introduce him to you. He's a strategist, a creative and a skilled facilitator - I'm telling you, he really rocks it on MURAL. So he's also an educator, global speaker, a tech investor and startup founder, he's done so many things that to help employees transform, and they call it becoming an INtrapreneur - so you really are living in alignment with your true purpose, as you go out and spread your work and your business into the world. So, his whole thing is around helping you creatively problem solve, and getting you to understand how to do it yourself, and he loves to enable organizations to foster a environment of creative confidence and collaboration. So, he does human centered design, and he's just a design thinker - you should check out his website right away, because it's incredible. And there's a whole bunch of case studies there that I was just like stalking you on Dan, and they're amazing. So please help me welcome Dan Levy - yes! All the way from Adelaide. Aren't you in Adelaide? Brisbane? Dan Levy 02:23 I am in Adelaide, in Adelaide. Patti Dobrowolski 02:24 Oh, Adelaide, okay. Yup. Dan Levy 02:25 Patti, you're gonna mess with everyone because I've got an English accent. So people go: "Oh. That's not very nice." Patti Dobrowolski 02:30 That's right. It's so true. Oh, well, but whatever. Here you are. You're here. Thank you for being on the show. Dan Levy 02:36 Thank you for having me. Patti Dobrowolski 02:37 Well, now tell us, Dan, now that I gave you that big drumroll of an introduction - and just want to say that it's his morning, it's my night, so we're on opposite ends - and so he's just waking up and I'm just trying to stay up, as you know. But here's- the conversation is going to keep all of you awake as soon as we get into it. Dan, you have to tell us how did you come to be a creative- and game-stormer and design thinker? How did you ever get to this place? Dan Levy 03:09 I would be lying if I said it was intentional. I started in design. And what I found was, as I got further and further away from the tools, I found that people either go down one or two paths, they either go, well, one of three paths: they either go into leadership in regards to they want to manage a group; they either go into development, meaning they want to own the experience; or they go into a more user-centric role, which means they want to be able to help people understand what the hell everybody else is doing. So that they can make sense and- Patti Dobrowolski 03:48 - And be fantastic. Yeah. Dan Levy 03:50 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So basically, I went down that more user-centric role. And what I found was the user-centric role usually involved me helping people to understand or attach rationale or linked things back to business objectives. And slowly what happened was I developed this design thinkers mindset and toolkit. And before I knew what was happening, I found out it was a thing. So then I had to kind of reverse engineer my thinking to fit into frameworks that allowed me to have conversations- Patti Dobrowolski 03:54 -that already exist. Dan Levy 04:07 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 04:08 - already existed, right. I love that. You had your own thing. And then you had to figure out: Okay, well, this is what they're calling that thing that I'm doing - and so I'm going to make sure that I understand that, so I can make sure that this thing that I have, I can do it in my own way. Dan Levy 04:42 I knew none of the words. Patti Dobrowolski 04:44 Yeah. Dan Levy 04:44 I found out about this program by Luma: L-U-M-A, Luma. And I got friendly with somebody from Luma and I was explaining to them my world - and they kept telling me: oh, that sounds like this tool, that sounds like that tool. So I invested, became a Luma facilitator to learn more about what they were doing - just basically to formalize, and make it less punk rock, bit more like there's this struc- Patti Dobrowolski 05:07 - legitimize yourself, you were trying to make yourself legit. Dan Levy 05:12 -Legit. Patti Dobrowolski 05:12 That's what your T-shirt should say. Now, were you a designer when you were a kid? How did you get into design? What did you do? Dan Levy 05:19 I was so into comics. And it's kind of a relevant conversation, this - because my boys had just started to get into comics. So all I've got left from when I was a kiddie is a big box of Marvel Comics, and I pulled them out the other day for the kids - and I just rediscovered my childhood at the moment. And the kids again, and they're drawing. So when I first got into art, it was all about creating stories, making comics, and getting into art, and then media with film. And then slowly, I figured out I like computers, and then it was interactive and riding the wave of web design and not app, but more CD-ROM designs. So that was really my path in. Patti Dobrowolski 06:02 So CD-ROMs, meaning you did the covers. Dan Levy 06:05 Meaning that - for example, Ford or Jaguar would create an interactive CD-ROM, which is basically, these days, like a website on a CD-ROM. Patti Dobrowolski 06:16 Yes, whoa. Dan Levy 06:17 And I'd be part of our creative team that would do the UI and the buttons. So do you remember something called Director and Lingo? Patti Dobrowolski 06:25 Of course, of course. (laughs) Dan Levy 06:26 Whoa, yes. I was working with Director and Lingo. Patti Dobrowolski 06:31 So oh, my gosh - so that's how you started being really a cartoon freak, and a comic book person, and then that evolved into doing this kind of design. So how do you pull that into the work you're doing now? Like, if you were the superhero in that comic, back in the past - well, how are you the superhero in the room today? What would your superhero do? Or what do you do as a design thinker in a session that makes you a superhero? Dan Levy 07:01 Okay, so I always say that everybody else is the superhero. I'm just the Gandalf. I'm the person that stands in the corner - or the Doctor Strange that kind of sets the constructs and creates the worlds for people to operate and to facilitate conversations. There's a chap called Daniel Stillman, who really changed my mind in regards to what it is to be a facilitator and actually thinking about designing conversations - not just about asking questions, but actually constructing that conversation. And since the pandemic - and we switched to a remote way of working - what I found is that because we're using collaboration tools like MURAL to facilitate conversations, that I am legitimately a conversation designer now, because ultimately, creating the conversation in the backdrop of a board to- Patti Dobrowolski 07:58 Well, and you're creating the - almost like the tapestry on which people can form and connect, and- Well, tell people what MURAL is about: you know, say a little bit about it, how you use it in design thinking, because not everybody uses it. And so how do you use it, and what's the advantage of using it compared to just live facilitation where you're there, and you might have Post-It notes and a room full of crazy people at tables. Dan Levy 08:26 The best thing about MURAL for me is that you don't have to rewrite hundreds of Post-It notes at the end of a workshop. (laughs) Its got this wonderful little function that says "Copy as Text", and you pop it straight into a spreadsheet. I know, because I felt the pain of that yesterday. But besides that, it's - well, you know, Patti, from your work that we work synchronously and asynchronously. And through the way we work now, we are able to actually conduct conversations without people needing to be there, we can keep momentum in the conversation. And MURAL is a tool that allows us to work asynchronously, as well as synchronously so we can keep decision making, collaboration, all these types of things, we can keep that in motion. And that's a great enabler, especially for people like ourselves that work with organizations across the globe and need to basically bind teams together to be able to collaborate and communicate and co-create. Patti Dobrowolski 09:30 Yeah, do you think that people are more willing, when they're using a collaboration tool like that online, they're more willing to be part of the game? Dan Levy 09:40 Mmm. Now, this is interesting. So we've run a couple of workshops over the last few weeks. And we found a bit of both. So somebody who don't want to be involved, it doesn't matter, they just like to- I call them lurkers, they lurk in the background, they don't have their camera - and other people want to get involved, something I'm really mindful of. And I don't know if you find this as well, when I introduced tools into a remote workshop, I'll try to reduce the amount of tools because regardless of how easy it is - and also bear in mind, we're super biased because we use these tools, yeah, almost fluidly for our work - they get a sense of overwhelm. Now I'll give you an example. Say, for instance, we've got a present- somebody wants to do a presentation. And we're then doing some interactive stuff, I'll put it all on the interactive board, and that way, we keep them in one spot. So even though it might be a little bit difficult for people creating a spreadsheet, their slideshow, and they have to take the pain of that - what that means is the user experience, they get a better experience. So I'm all about - how do we take the pain away from participants and own that pain to make the experience so much easier. And again, a tool like MURAL allows you to do a lot of, like, consolidating all the different other things that you could potentially use, or integrate in with a video conferencing tool - just makes it so much simpler. Patti Dobrowolski 11:16 Yeah. Now, for you - I don't know, you know, I have my sweet spot where I really know when I'm in the experience at the highest level I possibly can - you know, I'm fully engaged, and I'm really paying attention - what for you are the things that create the environment in which that happens for you. And it doesn't necessarily have to be online - it could be in person - but I'm curious, what creates the environment where you have, I would say, More Space for Light in what you're doing in the room with people. Dan Levy 11:51 This is hard. Because again, sometimes this is a form of flow, which I feel can be quite rare to get to. And I'm always nervous at the beginning of a workshop, so I'll try and get people out of their comfort zone - so they can meet me where I'm at. Patti Dobrowolski 12:09 Yeah. Do you ever tell them that you're uncomfortable with the beginning? Dan Levy 12:13 All the time. Patti Dobrowolski 12:14 Okay. And that does that normalize it, you think, for people in the room? Dan Levy 12:18 Maybe, but it normalizes it for me. Because, see, when I conduct a workshop - I'm sorry, if I'm not directly answering your question- Patti Dobrowolski 12:25 It's okay, we'll go back to it. Dan Levy 12:27 When I'm in a workshop, I feel like I like the environment to be like, we're in the pub, and we're sitting around a table, and we're having a conversation, and we're capturing it, and everyone feels empowered to be able to talk. Some people don't like that, because they are used to more of a cooperative meeting structure where they're told what to do. Patti Dobrowolski 12:49 -Formalized. Yes. Dan Levy 12:50 -Hierarchies, and people feel like if they talk out of turn, they might be seen as stupid. Whereas in a - using air quotes now - but in a more pub-type friendly environment. people say stupid things all the time. And either people will play on it or call them out, and it'll be a bit of a joke, and it's not such a risk. Because the stakes aren't high. Patti Dobrowolski 13:13 Yeah, it's not high stakes. Yeah, not high stakes. Dan Levy 13:16 So how can I reduce the stakes, reduce the risk, build that trusted environment where people want to take risks; and I feel as a facilitator, I have to demonstrate that vulnerability, so people - and maybe I don't need to, because maybe that compromises my message by saying: right, I'm gonna get everybody to take a deep breath now, and I need it as well. I don't know if that compromises, but at the same time, I'm being quite selfish in my space - because for me to deliver the best possible experience, I need to get everybody into my zone; I can't be in their zone, because if I'm in their zone, you know, I inherit all of their culture, all of their permissions, all of their weight- Patti Dobrowolski 14:05 Yes, yes...and so you're suddenly in their norms, instead of your norms. I would say imposing your norms on the space itself, and inviting them to step into it, is what it sounds like. And what's true is whether you're in person or online, there's always people who don't want to step in the space, but you don't know what's going on with them. So my thing is, like, leave them - you know, don't try to torture them. Although I will torture them a little - do you do that a little to try to get them to turn on their camera and stuff like that? Dan Levy 14:41 I'm from, say where I grew up, people are very vocal, and- Patti Dobrowolski 14:47 Where did you grow up? Dan Levy 14:48 I grew up in northeast London? So I'm from- Patti Dobrowolski 14:50 Northeast London, Yes. Dan Levy 14:51 Yeah. So it's a lot louder. I grew up from a very loud family, and I have to be really attuned to other people to know where their boundaries are. And so I need to test that to pick up their frequency. At the same time, sometimes when you're trying to bring the masses along, you can't bring the 20 or the 10% outliers so - you have an objective, you bring everybody along, and sometimes people might not collaborate as much, but you have to be comfortable with that. As long as it's different people's- Patti Dobrowolski 15:26 Yeah, otherwise you spend time, don't you think? You'd spend time like trying to get them to come, trying to get them - it's exhausting for everybody in the room, but especially it's exhausting for you, when you know that your agenda is already set. I love this, because I don't think that I have - I had Sunni Brown, you know, on, but we really didn't talk about facilitation that much. But talking to you, it's so great to hear from skilled facilitators, some of the challenges that you deal with, and how you manage them. Like, what's the worst thing that ever happened to you in the session that you were running, that you had to handle? Dan Levy 16:04 Okay, so I've come to learn that sometimes if you run as many workshops as us, you're not going to get 100% - like, you know, you watch a soccer match or a football match, and there'll be a player that won't always have a great game. That's just what happens when you run so many. And that's not always your fault. We ran a workshop the other week, and it was military precision. And this, I didn't feel comfortable, military position - because it takes away some of my spontaneity. Patti Dobrowolski 16:36 Yeah. Dan Levy 16:37 And I like to feel the energy and, and also, but - I needed to do that so that the client felt comfortable, because it was a really, really big client. Like, I can't say, "hey-" And they had my script, they had the board, we did rehearsals. Anyway, we've got into the workshop: within five minutes, the technology wouldn't work for the client, the client decided to change to another technology, which basically when we couldn't do breakout rooms, none of the presentations worked, none of the videos worked. There was too many people, they then started switching off their videos. And I basically put in the chat, and now we improvise. And I knew my script like that - I'd spent a long time on the script practice, I just closed the windows, I was like, right. I'm gonna have to just basically- Patti Dobrowolski 17:30 -and now the actor in me comes out. Doo doo doo! Superhero cape on, right. Dan Levy 17:36 Yeah. And it was just like, dig in, and do it - dig in and do it, and that. And we got through it - we got to the outcome we needed to. It wasn't the most comfortable workshop, because we had to constantly adapt. But we, but from an outcomes perspective, and getting everyone through and having everything needed to go as planned, it was perfect in that respect. Patti Dobrowolski 18:00 Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, you know, I love that. You know, the worst workshop I ever ran was one of the first change workshops where I didn't realize that people were getting fired - when they got called out of the room, they were getting fired, and they weren't coming back in the room - but nobody told me that. So I just thought I was really bad, so I just kept overacting - you know what I mean, like, I got louder and louder, and bigger and bigger. And what was true is everybody in the room was so sad, but I had no idea of knowing because it was my first engagement as a facilitator, so I just didn't know. And after that, I was like, you always have to be willing, and able to read the room first and then pivot, you know - read and pivot, and see and ask, like, what's going on? Why are you all, you know? So, I love that. Now, Dan, you run a lot of sessions with a lot of companies, how do you manage that kind of a schedule? And you got kids and a wife - I mean, how do you do all that balancing? Dan Levy 19:05 I'm getting better. I'm getting better. I'm starting to schedule and plan and, and be quite strict in regards to you know, like, only booking two gigs a month - maybe three at most? But yeah, and that seems to be working, but it isn't easy - I'll be honest, it isn't easy. It's the toughest thing, running a business - there's so many levels: see, we've just spoken about facilitation, and already there's like a multitude of levels there in regards to planning strategy, actual delivery and then all the human parts and soft skills and humility you need to have with that. And then after that- before and after and having to prepare and deliver the outcomes. And then on top of that, how do you market that and then how do you think, what's the flywheel to get more work and then you've got to think about all the accounts, oh gosh, run a business- Patti Dobrowolski 20:01 oh, yeah, it's a lot; then tracking them, It's really - it's a lot, and you know, you need like, a lot of people - it takes an army, really; it takes a village, they would say - you know, it really does, though. And so, tell me how you started More Room for Light. How did you start it? Dan Levy 20:19 How did we start- Patti Dobrowolski 20:20 -Light, yeah. Is it Space for Light? Why did I suddenly thought it was “room”? Space. Room - I think room and space, same thing, right in the US. Room is in your world, space? Dan Levy 20:33 Well, we get emails from lighting and room companies asking us- Patti Dobrowolski 20:36 I bet you do. (laughs) "Dear Dan, do you need help with the equipment? Because we have a whole lighting kit that you're going to love." Dan Levy 20:47 Absolutely. Yeah, if you need a discount, come to me, I can get trade prices. (laughs) More Space was started almost seven years ago - it was six and a half years ago, when my second was born. I was hitting a point in my career, where I wasn't happy. I was the strategist that was rolled out when a company needed a website or whatever it was, and I felt like where I'd been in my career, I'd regressed. I'd be working on some amazing products with amazing companies in incredible teams, whether it would be in London and Sydney. And I found myself in the marketing world, where the value, I felt, was more about the idea or the execution, but not about what difference does this make to the business from a more sustainable aspect. Patti Dobrowolski 21:46 Yeah, how's it gonna help them? How's it going to help them, yeah, right? Dan Levy 21:50 -And also like what, are we doing things that are risky in the respect of- are we as a brand company, doing things that will help us grow and move to the next horizon? So what we were doing was very kind of superficial and transactional: give me a microsite. So coming from IPTV products, and all this sort of stuff, I just didn't see a future doing what I was doing. Patti Dobrowolski 22:17 Yeah. Dan Levy 22:18 And I didn't see opportunities in the space to allow me to go out and explore and help organizations figure this out. Because initially, I just wanted to help companies do cool stuff. And I know that's kind of massive hypocritical from what I've just said, but I mean cool stuff in the regards of how do we leverage new technologies? How do we improve the connection with people whose lives we impact and whose lives we're trying to improve? How can we think about what we're doing a little bit differently from their perspective? As opposed to how much- Patti Dobrowolski 22:53 Let's create something cool, yeah, it doesn't create something cool, and then push it out. Dan Levy 22:58 Yeah, basically. And one night - I've always had a really high work ethic - and one night I was putting my eldest now to bed, and he said: Mommy, I want, I want more space for light. And I said to my wife, I said: what does that mean? That sounds - that's really interesting. She said, Well, he's not ready to go to bed yet, he wants- "more space for light", for him, meant: more time to read, more time to play, more time to kick a ball, play with his figures and all that. And I was, I want that. I want that, and I can give that. And it almost rejuvenized me and revitalized me - and I had a mission, I had a purpose, like I had something I could get behind, and that has really become a mantra for me, for us, and for the people we work with. Whether that's the future of now, whether that's our engagements, whether that's the friendships we've developed, like within the community or partnerships with - it's how do we make More Space for Light for each other, for mutual value, for our clients, for our customers, and it's just changed the dynamic of the conversation. Patti Dobrowolski 24:10 It's such a holistic view. I mean, I think this is what I love about it - is that you're looking at the bigger picture. I mean, I can't tell you how many meetings I've sat in, for big companies where they said, you know, and one of the things on the vision is gotta be work life balance. And what you're talking about, really, is bigger than that - it's not just work-life balance, it's that you understand that work and life are integrated. They're part of an integrated whole that we are graciously allowed to participate in. And that when you make more room for play, for curiosity, like you are a prolific reader, that's what I know to be true about you. Like I said, and then did you read that; and you go: oh, yeah, and this - have you read this and this and this. I ordered that already, right? So, but that, to me, just tells me about how much time it requires for you to process and to be creative, you know? Dan Levy 25:11 Oh, yeah. I think, and this is something I love - working with people that are hungry and curious. And I don't mean hungry in the respect of ambitious, and like - ambition is good, but when it's self serving and leaves everyone behind the curious in regards to want knowledge, want to learn, are prepared to be wrong, and are prepared to be challenged in their thoughts. And I think this is a really- this is when you know you're in a great workshop, when people feel comfortable to say things that might not be correct, but just want to get them out into the open, and let other people play with them and just understand from different perspectives. And that's when you've got a really interesting group of people because they've - sorry for the pun, but they've made the space for light: they've bought something out, and they're exploring - and that's really interesting, because they will achieve what they want to do, because they have that trust, and they have that capability of, you know, creative capability within all of them to be able to, you know, just have that durability to play with something so awesome. Patti Dobrowolski 26:23 That's fantastic. Now, tell me a little bit, tell us a little bit about your day - how does your day go? And how do you find a way to make more space for light in that day, like, what do you do? What time do you get up, and what do you do? I want to know what your rituals are, so we get to know you a little bit better. Dan Levy 26:43 Okay, so I'm going through a sleep phase at the moment. And by sleep phase, what I mean is I'm taking it a lot more seriously - I've got a mentor, or coach who's just basically impressing upon me how important sleep is, and your self health, your self worth. That's the wrong term, but self- , just looking after yourself and- Patti Dobrowolski 27:03 -Care, self-care, yeah. Dan Levy 27:04 Self care, thank you - and how the impact of sleep improves your focus and productivity during the day. And I've been playing with that and having early nights generally. Generally, I'm up just before 6am. I've got a panned-out gym, I call it - it's set up in the back in the open garage, I've got my weights, I do a little work, work out. I've been trying to meditate. I've a friend, he's given me this ADHD meditation tape for people like me that can't keep still. So it'll be 10 minutes, I'll do that - I'll most probably get disturbed by one of my little ones coming outside to wee on the lemon tree. (laughs) And then - and then pretty much, I've been working a lot from home lately, which has been - I'll be honest, a bit of a drag - because I'm kind of, I feel quite isolated. So I've got an office in town, and I'll go in and connect with people; but I've - because we're going away camping at the weekend, I've been trying to avoid as many people as possible that could potentially give me COVID, because I don't want to cancel this camping trip with my little one- Patti Dobrowolski 28:11 Yes, of course. (laughs) Oh my gosh. Dan Levy 28:12 -I've become this hermit, which is really awful. But after that, I'll be out and about. And then I've been a bit slack, Patti, because I started the year with 90 Day goals, and then month focus, and then dailies, normal that, I had that - and as the team's changed, and over, you know, different circumstances, we've had to deal with the pandemic, etc., I've slowly been more into the fill a bit - I'm in the weeds at the moment, but I'll have a set schedule, and I've been trying to clock off at around five-ish, because the kids roll in at three. So even if I'm on a call, they become part of the call. Patti Dobrowolski 28:49 Yes, I'm sure. Dan Levy 28:50 And then dinner, and then maybe, I've been trying not to work. Like maybe I'll do a few hours just to catch up and try and be in bed as early as I can, or chill out with my wife as early as I can. But that's generally the day is, for now I'll just be online working, grinding through my list of tasks. Patti Dobrowolski 29:12 There it is. That's right. I like that. I think that the idea of sleep is really - I'm glad that it's at the forefront. It's sometimes hard to grab for me. You know, I'll wake up now, and I'll look at my sleep clock app and it'll say: five hours, and I'd be like, oh no, that's not enough, you know - two more and then too late, I'm already awake thinking about coffee. Because there's coffee waiting for me out in the other room and once I start thinking about it, then I've gotta go - I'm a true addict. But I love too that you're talking about this idea of setting goals but then you have to let them go - you have to at some point let go of what your structure is. I think we get very obsessed with - you know, I guess the first thing I said, when we got on the call, before we started the podcast, I was saying, you don't have heavy- I read this or somebody sent me something about turning your 12 month year into a 12 week year, so that you get things done in a shorter sprint - you know, do it in a sprint. And the reason that I'm doing that in a sprint is because like you, I set those goals, and then I do those things. And then I know, I just know that right around now - because this is April, right, we're in the second quarter, right? And in the second quarter in the US - that's the way they divide it up, unless you work for Microsoft, then the first of the year starts in June, I don't know how they figured that out, but - so second quarter, then you have to reboot somehow. So either I'll draw a brand new map, or I will then just start to experiment with what is going to trick me into wanting to have fun again, to do something - what do I need to learn, that's gonna keep me inspired. So you know, that gym thing, it helps - it gets your dopamine going, you know - your serotonin is up, and then you're ready to go back in and do it, right? Dan Levy 31:10 Yeah. Also, I think there has to be a level of confidence and maturity in your business and the patterns and seasons of business. Because for a long time, I panic around Christmas, because nobody wants a workshop or talk to us around from December to January - and now I've reframed that. So initially, like I panicked, and then I'd listen to people like Gary Vaynerchuk, who was like, "You should working 48 hours a day", even though it's not possible to- hustling, get advantage of everyone to come out of January kicking arse, doing 3D and 4D and Tik Tok and NFTs and all that rubbish. And I was like, actually, this - admittedly, this is the first time I've done it this year - this is time for me to clean house and figure out a bit about me, about who I am, what More Space is, what do we want to achieve this year? Patti Dobrowolski 32:09 Yes. Dan Levy 32:10 And hopefully - and it sounds terrible - hopefully, we don't get any work till March. And so I can do that as soon as possible- Patti Dobrowolski 32:17 Exactly. This is what I said, you know, there's, there's something in my Instagram channel right now, where I say to the camera - I'm so happy when a client cancels the call because then I can go bike riding, and then I speed off on my bike, you know - because this is what's true, is that we don't always want to be on 24/7. And, and we're not meant to be on 24/7. And we need that time to create more space for light, and to understand ourselves and see what we're going to do next. What are we going to grow? And what do we want to read or play or, I don't know, go to the beach, something. Right? Dan Levy 32:56 So I'm reading a book. This is a recommendation by my coach. It's called Stolen Focus. And he said to me - Dan, your work issue's focus: you've got to do less, but more of like, just focus on what works for you. And I've been going through my own personal and professional transformation in regards to just honing in on focus and being quite comfortable to let certain things fall off and not do them. But just - and I'm figuring out that journey, that isn't like an automatic "Tomorrow, I'll get this" - like, this is a journey of self discovery for me. But this book's just been remarkable. So there were some principles that I'd already put in place. Like, I don't have my mobile phone in my bedroom. Like, I don't sleep with my phone, I stick with my Fitbit, just so I don't wake my wife up or we have our little ones sleeping with us. And that's the most discreet way I can wake anyone up. I'll try not to look at my phone when I wake up first thing, I want to see a human being if I can. Or if I'm doing a workout, I'll just put on my music and not look at my emails. And I'm trying to set boundaries. Yeah, I just saw this study on Instagram. It was just photos of people - just an observation of how people use their mobiles, and you see them in social settings, and I'm trying to reduce the amount of time I look at social media. Like, I'm trying to make the phone not rule me. Patti Dobrowolski 34:35 Yeah, I think it's - in this time. It's really difficult. It's like one of the biggest challenges that we have and not just us, but I think the younger generation is all about it. And so to make space for the phone to be away, is like- I can't have the phone in my room if I'm writing, because I will just hear the phone talking to me: it's saying "There's emails in here, do you want to see what the weather's gonna be like today" or - you know, everything that you could find in there will call you and distract you. So I love that. And I think that these are some rituals that I hope that our kids are really going to take to heart. And they're really going to start to put them in place and what kind of rituals, other rituals, do you have that really helped you stay in tune with yourself or in balance? Dan Levy 35:28 The motorbiking, trying to get - I know we both share a passion of going out on our bikes. That's been a big thing for me, cause we're constantly dwelling on the past or anxious about the future; that being present in this mind space right now in this second and maximizing the potential of this minute - often, we take that for granted. And I suppose especially like, when you've got this thing buzzing out - your phone, you got access to everything and nothing at the same time, but how can you see- Patti Dobrowolski 36:02 Everything and nothing at the same time, you said: you have access to everything and nothing at the same time. Oh, that is well put. Mic drop. Dan Levy 36:16 If you- just being present, and that's the motorbike for me - where you have to be present, otherwise you'll fall off the thing or someone will bump into you - that's been really good. And cycling as well. And just trying to just make the most of things, you know. Patti Dobrowolski 36:32 Yeah, that's fantastic. I love that, I love it. All right, now. So you know, you're a big change maker - you help people make change in their company, so - if you have any tips about people that are listening, and they want to make a change, some kind of change in what they're doing, what would you tell them? Because you pivoted from working for somebody else doing those things, to starting your own company - and you've done that multiple times. And every time you're in a room with people, you're asking them to pivot. So what would you suggest, if somebody who is - like you thinking, I don't know if I can do this anymore, I want to do something else - what would you say? Dan Levy 37:10 I would be sort - I don't want to be responsible for people making some dramatic change, but I - if you're in an environment, where you want to make change, for example, in an organization - I feel like you have to listen to understand a propensity for an organization willing to change, whether that would be one person, whether that would be a team - and start to figure out who the people are, that you can, that are champions and gatekeepers. Also, laddering back, why? Why is there a need to change? What is your why? What are the factors behind you making that change? And once you start to understand your why, you'll know whether it's kind of more of an environmental thing, more of a lifestyle thing or a whole chain, because - don't be too rash; often people seek a solution that's very binary, for example: "this isn't working, therefore I need to do that". There might be a third option or a compromise or, or an intermediary step that allows them to get an understanding of what they want. Because often people are so tied to a solution, they forget about the values all the while, the drivers and the signals that are pushing them to need to feel like they need to make the change. So I think, really figure out your why, and then start to play from there. Patti Dobrowolski 38:39 Yeah, I think too this, the other thing you're saying in here, that you aren't directly speaking to is that - or maybe I'm just hearing this in between space, which is - there is a part of us that feels like when things aren't working, it's better to go there than to stay here and work it out. Because sometimes in the working out, you work it through, and so then you don't have to go and repeat the pattern in whatever you end up doing after this because: you will repeat the pattern. And so if you can figure that out, and then you can leave gracefully and know that that was the right thing to do and that it's the right time - I think that is so essential. So I love that you're talking about finding stakeholders that are also willing to change and who are the gatekeepers, so you can win them over - so that you can create the kinds of changes that you want to see in your environment. I love that. I love you, Dan, you're so incredible. I loved having this conversation with you. I'm going to bring you back so we can talk more about what's happening with you. And I'm sure that the camping trip is going to be amazing, because you will be COVID-free. We're setting that intent. And so is there any- Dan Levy 39:59 Ah, I'm safe now. I've got one more day and I'm safe- (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 40:00 That's right. (laughs) That's right, may we all stay COVID-free, people - let's just put that out there that we spread that out, so we can get back to - not get back to, but get forward to the life that we dream about, right? We dream about. Well, I dream about being in the same place in the universe with you Dan, so that we can do some kind of work together, so I look forward to that opportunity. And thank you so much for coming here and spending time with me in your morning - my evening, so we could get to know you a little better. Dan Levy 40:22 Thank you for having me, Patti - it's amazing. It's just so amazing to just be part of your orbit and be part of the multiverse that you connect to. So - you got another friend in Australia. Patti Dobrowolski 40:49 Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. All right. So now, everybody, you know the drill - if you liked what you heard, please share it with your friends. And also, please follow Dan Levy with More Space for Light. You can find him on LinkedIn, you can find More Space for Light on the internet, and also in the show notes - we'll find other ways that you can connect with him, because he's incredible. And if your company is looking for an amazing facilitated experience, he's your man - I'm just saying. Okay, all right, everybody. Until next time, Up Your Creative Genius. Take good care, woo! Patti Dobrowolski 41:28 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius - then join me next week for more rocket fuel! Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring - so get busy! Get out, and Up Your Creative Genius! And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap!

In this episode of the Remote Pathways podcast we are joined by our fantabulous  guest, Patti Dobrowolski, the author of 9 Tips to Up Your Creative Genius  and DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life,  is the founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change.In this episode we explore:The power of future castingThe neuroscience of drawing to remain focused on key goalsHow designing visuals can help bring teams togetherFun and innovative ways to engage people in the workplace and beyondClick to order The Game of InnovationNEW BOOK - The Game of InnovationConnect with Patti Dobrowolski:Click here to visit our guest page to learn more about our guest, Patti Dobrowolski!Question of the Week:What's the future you want to draw?Support the Podcast–Please Leave us a ReviewAre you finding this podcast valuable? The greatest compliment you can pay us is to share it  and leave a review on iTunes. Click here and scroll down to Customer Reviews to let others know what you've found to be helpful as you're listening in!Follow our PodcastFacebook.com/RemotePathwaysInstagram.com/RemotePathwaysTwitter/RemotePathwaysLet's Connect!Contact Jennifer Britton to speak virtually on topics related to effective virtual conversations, virtual team development, virtual team leadership, growing a solopreneur business OR her own experience in leading remote teams globally in the voluntary sector.Contact Michelle Mullins to discover a healthy, sustainable rhythm of life, that will help you avoid burnout and say YES to the work you love!Let's Connect!Visit www.RemotePathways.com to connect with Jennifer and Michelle directly. Remote work is here to stay and we want to hep you on your way :-)

Angela is joined by Patti Dobrowolski, author of Drawing Solutions: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life. They discuss how Patti deals with stage fright, how her Draw Your Future process helps people achieve their goals, and they discuss what people are struggling with most right now. Buy Patti's book on Amazon and visit her website UpYourCreativeGenius.com!

Jan Santos holds a Bachelor of Science in Fine Arts major in Advertising from Batangas State University, Philippines and International Baccalaureate Teaching Certification for Visual Arts and Theory of Knowledge (Epistemology) He is the CEO of The Creative Scoop which is a Branding Agency that helps businesses from Australia, Germany and the UK, grow through the utilization of social media and modern creative content. He also coaches entrepreneurs, abroad either 1:1 or group, with his Branding and Identity Program. Moreover, he started The Creative Talk Podcast on Apple/iTunes, Spotify and Amazon Music, supporting entrepreneurs, leaders and creators to stand-out and establish a market competitive edge. Currently with 10k solid supporters from 16 countries worldwide. His goal is to solidify one's branding and identity, ensuring the business to be unique and memorable by means of creating a consistent visual style, goal and focus. His drive is to enhance ones' brand credibility and recognition. Jan Santos is presently residing in Batangas City, Philippines with his wife Farrah Arellano-Santos and little boy Enzo Mariano Santos. Timestamp 2:51 From comics, to fine arts, to advertising and branding - Jan's unique journey 7:10 Emotional appeal, the fall of traditional advertising and the rise of branding 11:25 Two icons that inspire Jan 13:27 Three points to create a solid, strong brand 15:03 Aligning business visions with his purpose in life 17:53 Forging diamond brands from the rough 19:50 Visions for the future 22:55 Daily routines and how they changed during COVID 25:09 The Creative Talk - introducing his podcast 26:32 The fruits of labour often provide the best answers to those who don't understand 28:43 Keeping up with ever-evolving platform algorithms 33:10 The importance of putting intent before content Social Media Web:https://www.thecreativescoop.me Instagram:https://www.instagram.com/thecreativescoopjansantos/ Podcast:https://linktr.ee/thecreativetalkpodcast Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello, Superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast - where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski! Oh my gosh. I have Jan Santos here. I don't know if you've looked at my Instagram feed, but it totally changed this year - and it's thanks to Jan Santos and The Creative Scoop. Because he came in and scooped me and scooped me up, and like, elevated me to 10,000 followers - all these different things that happen. Now let me just tell you a little bit about him. He's the CEO of Creative Scoop, which is a branding agency that does work with people in the UK and Australia, Germany, US - I'm the US, right - and he helps entrepreneurs to grow their brand online. He holds a Bachelor of Science in Fine Arts and Advertising from Bantagas - is that how we say- Jan Santos 01:24 Batangas, yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 01:25 - Batangas. Batangas State University in the Philippines and an International Baccalaureate teaching certification for Visual Arts and Theory of Knowledge. He is amazing and incredible, and I love everybody in his team that's helping us - so please welcome Jan Santos to the show! Jan Santos 01:46 Wow, wow. Thank you, buddy. Amazing, amazing intro. Love that. Love the vibe. Love you. Wow. Patti Dobrowolski 01:52 Yeah. Well, you know, I love you back. And here's the thing - you know, it's almost the middle of the night there for him. So just want to say: thank you for coming on the podcast today to share some tips and drop some big wisdom on us. Jan Santos 02:08 Always welcome, Patti. Three coffees, and lots of love. Patti Dobrowolski 02:12 Exactly. Love is the key booster. We know that right? It's the essential dopamine within us. So tell everybody, Jan, tell us a little bit about you - how you came into be doing brands at all. You've got this fine arts degree. So tell us, you know, where did you come from? And you can tell us even a little bit about your family, and then how you got to where you are today with your branding agency? Jan Santos 02:37 Wow. Yeah. Well, I'm always into arts. You know, when I was a kid, I'm - well, you can see that. I'm a Batman collector. Comics, books - Patti Dobrowolski 02:48 Yes, yes. Behind you. Yeah. Jan Santos 02:51 So a lot more behind that. So I'm - you know, I love illustration. I love the creativity. I love the world of imagination. So, but growing up, you know, we're doing okay. But my parents, they work hard, and things like arts are very expensive. Yes. But then I remember like, walking, and there's a comic toy store. And they're very expensive. So I can only read comics - like, if they're past two months issue, they put in a basket - so I go there, and I read it, but you cannot bring it out, so you just read it, and then you put it back. So, you know, that fuels my creativity, and that's my journey. And then I'm always, the thing that - I don't know, that's my special sauce - the thing that makes me different is that I'm always interested even when I was a kid, in the process. So if I see - like, for example, I can never forget: if I see Batman artwork, I was always think, like, how did they do this? How did they create this? What are- not the word process, because I'm a kid at that time, but - you want to know the journey, things like that. That- you know, fast forward now, that is something that I could say: it's the process of the journey, that what makes a piece valuable. So that paves the way for me to you know, tell my parents that I'm really into art, even though it's expensive, what's the plan? Patti Dobrowolski 02:53 Yes. Jan Santos 03:03 But you know, my mom and dad, they really supported me - mostly my mom because, you know, we're not a complete family. She really invested a lot in me entering the world of arts and, you know, Fine Arts major and Advertising. And that opened the door for me to see, there's a lot more - more than arts, you know, yes. And this is going to be an arguable topic, but for me when I entered fine arts, the highest form of learning is art, because only art can go past human logic and straight to human emotions, and I love that. Yes. Patti Dobrowolski 05:12 Yes, it can. Jan Santos 05:13 And when that happened, when that happens - human judgment will always follow. You know, that's the reason why when we watch a movie or a cartoon, or you listen to radio, you know: you get captivated, you're pushed, you cry, you're happy, you get mad at the protagonist and antagonist about what's happening - that's the power of art. And I was there - I've seen that happen, I've been a part of that. And at that time, advertising is utilizing that power. You know, so in that core is branding. It's not branding yet, but the essence of it is hidden in advertising. So you know, cut the story short: I love arts, I was given an opportunity to be in that industry, and here I am now. Patti Dobrowolski 05:25 Yes, no doubt! I mean, really, what I love about what you were saying is that you talked about, and this is what I see reflected in your work. Like, if you go to Jan's website, you go to his Instagram - it has a very cartoon style. And so I can see that you came from that, because - and, you know, me, too. That's what I did. My favorite cartoons were Mad Magazine, but not the magazine itself - it was the little tiny cartoons at the bottom of the page. That's what I feel like my style represents that, really: everything I draw, I'm always thinking - will this look good on the bottom of the page of Mad Magazine? Because I think it imprints you, and then you see the world through that lens, but you're talking about advertising - and this is old school advertising in a way before it came into brand. When you go to an advertising, you know, fine arts in advertising, really, we're talking about looking at the big brands, understanding what advertising's goals are, etc. But how did you find your own voice in that sea of advertising? How did you find you? Jan Santos 07:10 You know, let's give a backstory of what advertising really is. And there's a distinction between advertising and, you know, fine arts, because when you say Fine Arts that's in the realm of creativity, right? Yes. But when you say about advertising, that's- it's using that creativity to really - I'm gonna use the word - manipulate people. Patti Dobrowolski 07:35 Yes, yes. I was gonna say get the audience, you know, grab them, and then inculcate them with whatever it is you want them to buy. Mm hmm. Right. Jan Santos 07:45 Yeah. And when I was there, I always say this until now, I'm more of an artist rather than you know, an advertiser. Patti Dobrowolski 07:53 Yes. Jan Santos 07:53 Or a coach or a speaker. That's me, God created me to be an artist. Patti Dobrowolski 07:57 Yeah. Jan Santos 07:57 So in some way, it made me uncomfortable. I say - yeah, we're using the power of arts, and we're operating an advertising-driven business. We're dictating the masses. We're controlling the masses. Patti Dobrowolski 08:12 Definitely. Jan Santos 08:12 Whatever we want, you set the trend. Patti Dobrowolski 08:15 Yes! Jan Santos 08:16 You utilize radio, TV, print ads. That's the only three powerful mediums before, right. So yeah, so it's something that "Nah," I said, deep inside it's like, "no, this isn't it." Patti Dobrowolski 08:16 I know. I know, I feel your pain there. Yes. (laughs) Jan Santos 08:34 Again, I never knew that it would, you know, explode. There's a new industry, there's a new generation that will come. I never knew that. But I always felt that there is a genuine power hidden in advertising. So, you know, I studied, and I really invested my heart, my mind, my soul into it. And I understood: okay, so there's a pure essence hidden in advertising, but it won't work, because it's not the time - yet. Patti Dobrowolski 09:07 Yes. Well, and also, then social media happened, right? Jan Santos 09:12 When social media happened, that was the signal - because there was an option now: you know, it's not monopolized by the three major mediums, which is print ad, TV, and radio. There is now what we call free media. Patti Dobrowolski 09:30 Yes. Jan Santos 09:30 And when free media came into play, it changed the gameplay already. Patti Dobrowolski 09:36 Yes. Jan Santos 09:36 It now gave the opportunity to everyone. To be a creator, speaker, artist - and when that happened, boom - branding came into play. And because, you know, it was the perfect signal - It's like the bat signal- Patti Dobrowolski 09:52 Yeah. Jan Santos 09:52 - it's ready. We're ready, come out. Boom! Patti Dobrowolski 09:55 Yes, that's right. Jan Santos 09:55 When that branding came into play it knocked out advertising. It's still there. But you know, they don't control it - the power shifted already, they no longer call the shots - it is given to the people. Everyone has their own brands. Everyone can set up their brands. So that was the shifting part- Patti Dobrowolski 10:15 Well, and that, then, becomes the open door for you to walk through. Because the kind of branding you're talking about is really creative. It's taking even if you have like- uh, I'll give an example, right - I have a keynote talk. You take a piece of the keynote talk, and you serve it up to the public in a certain way with content attached to it. And then people are interested in that - they're like, "Where is she? Oh, she's at the UN", right? Jan Santos 10:40 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 10:40 And then that - that gets all these thousands and thousands of views, right? But that takes creativity to understand which piece of that is going to be the saleable product - which piece of that represents the person in their brand, most authentically - which is really, I think what, you're really good at this. Jan Santos 11:03 Well, that's the good thing of starting in an advertising world. Because, you know, that's the contribution of advertising. You know how - how to use the product, how to use the brand. You know, which talent has potential, which app, you can add, you have the eye. So that's a good thing from advertising that I have. Patti Dobrowolski 11:25 Yeah, and that is no doubt, no doubt. Now, who are you inspired by? Now, when you look out there in the world, like who inspires you? Not just your clients, but who inspires you in the world that's doing something interesting that you think we should look at or be interested by? Jan Santos 11:41 Well, not in the branding world, but first guy who really talked about revolutionising everything in this world? For me, it's Gary Vaynerchuk. Yeah, so when I heard that- Patti Dobrowolski 11:54 Gary Vee. Jan Santos 11:55 Gary Vee, yeah. When I heard him speak about, not about branding, but you know, really making a difference, changing the gameplay - that was my dilemma before, it's like: I need something, but I have no power to change it. I'm waiting for it. And then I heard him speak. And I was like, wow, he understands me in somewhat way. So yeah, so I can't say that he's my mentor. But he really, you know- Patti Dobrowolski 12:23 Influences you. Jan Santos 12:24 -influenced me in a way. Yeah, up to a certain extent. But yeah, he's one of them. And then a big part of it is Myles Munroe. Dr. Myles Munroe. I think I have a book somewhere there, yeah, "The Power of Vision". And it's connected to you know, being visual, as a branding and identity coach. So he really talked about looking past beyond what eyes can see. If you can look beyond what you can see, then you can really create something that can revolutionize the game. So those are not branding related, but those are the powers that contributed what I have now. Patti Dobrowolski 13:05 Yes. And so now in your agency - so you have a number of people that work on a number of different projects. But what do you feel? Like, what do you think that someone who is developing their brand - what do they need to know? What should they be thinking about if they want to really establish a strong brand like you have? Jan Santos 13:27 Right? So first, you know, everyone has a brand, alright. But I love what you said that, if they want to have a strong brand - my term is if you want to have a solid brand - and you can only achieve that by understanding three points: who you are, what you do, and what you offer. If you put that in place before anything else - if you put that in place, you're one step closer in making a solid brand: who you are as a brand, what do you offer as a brand, and who you are, what you do as a brand? Are you, you know, giving value in terms of education? Or are you in the realm of entertainment? So if you can really be concise and consistent in that three major points, you're one step closer to achieving a solid brand. Now you can follow that question: hey Jan, but you didn't answer. Yes, I have that in place. How can I have a solid or strong brand? When you have those three points in place, you need to make a difference: you need to connect, make an impact in your tribe and make a difference. Only then - only then can you say that your brand is solid or strong or successful. When you connect the people around you, you make an impact - may be good or bad, negative or positive - and you transform people's lives - again, good or bad. When you achieve that, you have a strong brand. Patti Dobrowolski 15:03 Wow, that's so good. Because I think that often people think: I'm just gonna create this thing, and then, you know, and that's because I love it, and I love doing it. You know, I remember as a performer, I'd be like: yeah, but if you don't have an audience, then you can perform to seven people - which I have, you know - so you have to understand how important it is to this piece, especially now connecting to your audience, and then helping them transform their lives, helping them to transform their lives, right. And I think this sometimes gets lost on people who are interested just in making money, right? They're just wanting to make some money. And so they go out there, and then they'll try to do all these things, and sometimes you're successful doing that. But are you really then? And I wonder if this is something you think about? Are you really aligned with your purpose? Like when I would ask you like, what is your purpose? Jan Santos 16:01 Funny thing, I always answered that with a comic connected visualization. If you're familiar with Alfred - Alfred of Batman - you know, his purpose is to help Bruce Wayne be the best Batman or be the best Bruce Wayne ever. And that's me. My purpose given by God is to connect with people and catapult that brand, those people, to the next level, by all means necessary. I'm a helper. Patti Dobrowolski 16:30 Yeah. Jan Santos 16:30 The reason why sometimes my clients, my partners, they don't see what I see in them, I see paths beyond what they can visualize in their brand. And I believe in that brand. So my intent before anything else, is to bring that into something tangible. And I push them - you know, I believe in your message, I believe in your brand, so let's do this - until they see what I see. So I'm an Alfred, that's my purpose. I'm a helper. (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 17:01 Wow, that is - and you know, I think that I love that you're talking about it in this way. Because I think that people underestimate how powerful that is. But if you don't have people, or surrounded by people who can help you, you never get things done. Because you, you know, sometimes are just caught up in the experience that you're in, and you miss the support underneath. And for me, I think of that, too. Like, often people will call me and they'll say, I know that you speak to big audiences, will you - you know, I have a classroom and they need some of these speakers to teach art. Last year, you know, during COVID, somebody called me and said, I have all these students online. Will you teach art one day? Like, of course, are you kidding? Because that's really why we're here. We're not really here to gain accolades. And so- Jan Santos 17:53 - yeah, you know, running a business, it's natural, you know, earning money. Of course, that's business. But I love what you said, you know, it's a blessing that there are people that are willing to help around you. And yeah, not just that - people that are passionate in helping you regardless of there's something in return. And I think I remember it right, this is somewhat connected to our past conversation, you know, even though there's nothing in return. Patti Dobrowolski 17:55 Yeah. Jan Santos 17:56 I would always be committed to you. Because first, I love you. Second, I love your brand, and I love the message - and I see great things happening in your brand. Patti Dobrowolski 18:33 You see that vision of it. Well, and I feel very similarly to you. I see the vision of your brand and your greatness going out there because everyone that you touch, their brand explodes. It does because they are ready for someone to help them and you know how! Jan Santos 18:56 It's not all because of me. I always say this: if you guys watched the movie Rambo - Rambo, part two, I think, if I'm not mistaken - there's a part there that, you know, his commander came and he wants to recruit Rambo again for a mission and he said, No, you turned me into a monster. I don't want to do that anymore. And then he said, No, no Rambo. You're the same, you know, there's a rock and we transform it into a statue. You're the same rock, we just send it out to transform into a statue. That's what I do. I just chisel it out - me and my agency, we just chisel out, you know, the rough edges - but what makes that brand unique is still there. Patti Dobrowolski 19:40 Yeah. Jan Santos 19:40 That makes you, you - we just you know, just chisel it out - Patti's just, it's the same amazing brand. We just, you know, shine it there, polish it here. (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 19:50 Yes. But what I love is that's a spiritual principle you're talking about, really. Because you come into the world as a piece of coal, and experiences with other people really work you down until you're a diamond when you leave, right? If you make that a conscious choice, and that's- I love that, because it's very linked to that. Now, when you think about the vision for you and your brand, firm, your agency, where do you see yourself in 5-10 years? What would you like to be doing? Jan Santos 20:21 You know what Patti, you know, this is an audacious dream. As far as I'm concerned, there is no branding agency- and when I say branding, because in the Philippines, when you say branding, they're still stuck in the advertising, you know, post-industrial age terms. Patti Dobrowolski 20:35 Those three things. Yeah. Jan Santos 20:36 Yeah. So when I say there is no branding agency like what we have operating, I want to make it big. I want to make it you know, local based, because a company that is people centric, client centric - that's what we need in order for an industry to triumph. And it's not there yet. But step by step with connection, with the right people like you guys, my dream is to really make it big locally, in the Philippines, because you can see all the partners, all the clients are non Philippines-based. So yes, speaks a lot, right. So in the long run, you know, maybe three, five, ten - as long as I'm here, still playing the game - my dream, and prayer is you know, to start locally to help small entrepreneurs, introduce them to a different perspective in how you run your business, how you look on your brand, how you look with your, your clients, your partners, how to harness that relationship. It's not about money - it will come, trust me. Yes, so that's my goal. Patti Dobrowolski 21:44 All right. I love that. Because I think there is something to where you are in the world - I always think, oh, yeah, it will be great. Now, you remember, I've moved to four major cities, right? Five, four or five now. And so, but now we're in Texas, and all I can say is, when I start getting work in Texas, then that means that my brand will begin to be established here, and that matters - it matters to my ability to influence the consciousness here, in a good way, right? Because that's what needs to happen. They need to see me, they need to draw their future and understand that anybody can do it and make a change. I love that you're going to do that. Now, tell people what- I want to know what's it like, you know, you getting up with your agency every day? What's it look like, start to finish? Because today, you got up early, and it's late. Jan Santos 22:43 It's all Patti's fault. Patti Dobrowolski 22:45 Right, it is, it is. Jan Santos 22:46 So, everyone that is listening and watching for this podcast episode, It's Patti's fault. (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 22:52 Oh, thanks. Thanks. I'll take it, I accept that. Jan Santos 22:55 Yeah, that's why I wake up, I start my day - 5am. Jog, exercise, before I do trainings, Muay Thai. But it- first I'm lazy. Yeah, that's the that's the main thing. And then you know, COVID happened. So I can't go out to things like that. So it's basic stamina, and exercise. And then yeah, 6 to 7 - that's a lot of emails, a lot of messages from different social media platforms. And then 7.30, that's the, you know, the morning briefing with my PA, handing over a lot, dumping everything to her. And then 9 o'clock, that's where everyone in the agency starts to check in. There's another team briefing, handing over of tasks, delegation of whatnot, projects and everything. And then yeah, so we end, Mondays to Thursdays, we end the day 5pm. And then if I don't have schedules for speaking engagements, Clubhouse, or Lives, and if I still have some juice in me, we do online games. We do online games - we love you know, shooting games, me and my friends - so that's what we do. But recently, because of - you know, we are really triumphing on COVID, so it's getting better and better - there's a lot more face to face events that are happening. And I've been invited, like before, to go speak about branding and social media. So, again, that's an addition and a big adjustment because you need to go out. Before, you can like just put on a good shirt and - boom, let's do it. But not anymore, you know? Patti Dobrowolski 24:39 Not online. Yeah, not anymore - you got to put on slacks and shoes now. Jan Santos 24:43 Yeah. Plus, you need to take in consideration the traffic - you know, if a driver will drive me so I can then, you know, make a video content going there. But yeah, no one - it's going to be me. So things like that. So I usually end 11pm, because 10 o'clock should be the start of my podcast recording. It's all just like that, 10 to 11, 11.30 is the latest.(whispers) Again, guys, your host- (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 25:09 Yes. (laughs) I did. I made him stay up late tonight. But tell everybody - like, what's your podcast about? Because I love being on, a guest on your podcast. But also who are the kinds of people that you're interviewing, so they can follow The Creative Scoop, Jan Santos 25:26 Guys, please check the Creative Talk podcast, available in your favorite podcast platform. It's a podcast where leaders, entrepreneurs, creators worldwide gets to be highlighted - the focus is not the host, which is, you know, even though the host is very handsome and very witty (laughs) - the focus is not on him. The focus is on those people because again, like my fascination when I was a kid, to understand the discovery, the process, the journey I adopted into this podcast, we see those icons, and you know, your host, Patti was featured in one of my episodes, we see them as a successful icon - creators, leaders, entrepreneurs worldwide, but we don't know the story. You know, what happened? So that's the focus of the show - it's all about them, and we make it very, very, very focused on our guests. It's their show, it's not mine. So that's my podcast, guys - again, the Creative Talk podcast, please check it out. Patti Dobrowolski 26:32 Yes, definitely. I highly recommend it. I also- I want to know, so when you were starting out your own branding, I mean, like, you must have had challenges building your company going along the way. So what did you do to help yourself get through it? What was challenging for you, or still is - if there's anything at all? Jan Santos 26:53 Well, again, it's something new in the Philippines. So when you know, it's human nature - if we don't know something, we tend to be against it. Because we can't understand. Patti Dobrowolski 27:07 We're fearful, yes. Jan Santos 27:09 And if we don't understand, and we're against it - you know, because we can't control it. So that was the challenge back then - everybody that is connected to me doesn't know anything about what the heck am I talking about. (laughs) That's true! Patti Dobrowolski 27:11 Oh, my gosh, so you have to show pictures and draw sketches? Wow. Wow. Jan Santos 27:31 No, no, no, no. It was like, first, it was frustrating explaining to them. But you know, by prayer and God's wisdom, it's just - alright, okay, in time. You know, when you plant a seed, you don't explain how it will grow - you know in your heart that time will take its effort to grow, and it will grow, right? Patti Dobrowolski 27:57 Yeah. Jan Santos 27:57 You just need the work. You just need to do the effort in watering it, make sure the soil is right, make sure the sunlight is right, protecting it from rodents and pests like that, you know. But you know, the plant will grow - and when it does, when it does - it will bear fruit. That fruit will explain everything for you. Patti Dobrowolski 28:19 Yes. Jan Santos 28:19 And let's, you know, fast forward: people around me, some doesn't still understand that, they don't have a clue. But they see the output. And you know, with that they have security that: oh, okay, he knows what he's doing. People are being blessed, people are being- you know, he's helping out a lot of people, he must be doing something good. Patti Dobrowolski 28:43 That's right. That's right. That's right. I think proof is everything. You know, I used to draw, I would tell people, you know, nobody understood about why you want to picture the future, right? Why would you want to have a drawing or someone drawing in the room. So I go to these big clients like Morgan Stanley - I go into their office in New York City, and I have a contact there, and I put a piece of paper up on the wall, and I do the process with them - to see if they would hire me right? To come in and do one about their company. And they had this during this time, you know, in the mid 90s, early 2000s, they would simply look at the drawing, and they'd say: that's nice, but we don't really have the budget for that, and they'd say, but could you leave that drawing with us? And I'd be like, oh, yeah, so now they got a free drawing, right. But later, you know, many years later, I'm back in that same room - working. So maybe that's 10 years later, right? But it took a long time for the industry of graphic recorders to come to the forefront, which is really what we see in terms of what you've been doing and the branding help. Now, you are really an expert on algorithms. That's what's true, right. How do you keep your acumen, how do you keep your skills up in the algorithm in Instagram or Facebook, or how - what do you do? How could people research for themselves to get more educated? Jan Santos 30:09 Well, stop thinking that you know a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 30:14 That's right. Jan Santos 30:14 Yeah, The moment you say to yourself that, you know, you're good in this area, and you understood everything, is the moment you lose the game already. Patti Dobrowolski 30:23 Yeah. Jan Santos 30:23 Because, you know, algorithm, it's a system. In any platform that's all about YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok - it's constantly changing, because they're constantly innovating - because of the constant creation of content, because of the constant usage of consumers. You know, they are always adjusting- Patti Dobrowolski 30:45 - And all the data, and they're not even adjusting - the algorithm is adjusting for them. Jan Santos 30:51 Yes, imagine the amount of data that comes in. That's like, what - billions of billions of data and they're always improving. You know, when I say adjusting, and innovating, it doesn't mean like always a drastic change. It could be small- Patti Dobrowolski 31:06 No, it's incremental, it could be an incremental thing - you see it, you see it happen, and then you're like, what, something's different now? They're not, this is not happening, right? This, we're not getting as many views, right? Jan Santos 31:18 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 31:19 And that's generally because something has changed, based on the algorithm. Jan Santos 31:24 When you have that mindset that you don't know a lot, so you will really invest your time in, you know, researching - you spend time in the platform. And when I say spend time in a platform, it will really take you, you know - months, years - because you know, imagine a platform is a human being, you cannot say that you know a person in like what, a few months? No, you spend time, you build relationships with that human being. And that's the same with platforms. When we talk about Patti, Instagram, I was like, when Instagram launched the Carousels, that was way way back, it was the newest feature of Instagram - I was there. I was there understanding, what is this? Because you know, Instagram before was a online portfolio for photographers- Patti Dobrowolski 32:17 Yeah, it was just visual, it was pretty photos, pretty photos. Yeah, it wasn't about business, exactly. Jan Santos 32:23 So when that happened, I was like, I was spending - I remember, 6am to 9am, I should, you know, watch videos, talk to people on Twitter, you know - I am stalking people. I need to know more about those platforms. Connect with, making collaborations with people that I know are well-versed- Patti Dobrowolski 32:42 Yes, ahead of the game. Yes. Jan Santos 32:45 Yeah. And you know, it really gave me an insight. And then the same principle applies, but different interface, you know, things like that - different platform, but the same principle: TikTok, YouTube shorts, and a lot. You just need to spend time - one platform at a time. Research, talk, listen, join Clubhouse sessions and really, you know- Patti Dobrowolski 33:10 Hear people talk about it - hear what they're saying, take a bunch of notes, that's what I did. And now, you know, in the NFT space, doing the same thing - you know, what can you learn about NF Ts and how could you leverage that in the future because that's the future and we know that, we can see that building and if you follow Gary Vee at all, you see what he's done with his brand, and everything in that space. So it's very inspiring. Well, you are so incredibly inspiring. I hope that everybody has just pulled away these big nuggets. Now tell us - you know, I don't want to keep you because I know we have to go into a class in a moment - so I want to know like, tell people who are wanting to make a change and refresh what they're doing: what is a tip that you could give them on how to, you know, continue to persevere in this space? What would you say to them? Jan Santos 34:04 No, you know, I always say this: intent comes before content. Your intent will always come before content, what ever it is. So know that first: when you put that in place, and you sort that out, you have a solid foundation already with your brand. And trust me: things will be visual for you, you know what to do next. We always hear this from gurus online. You know: know your niche, niche down, or understand your target market, or your only few thousand fans or something like that. And that's not wrong - that's correct. But before anything else, know your intent. Know - you know, Simon Sinek's famous "why", things like that. But more than that, you know, the intent - your Jedi force in you - know that everything will be in place. Patti Dobrowolski 34:58 I love that. That is such incredible advice. I love this time with you, I'm so glad I get to spend more of it. I'm so grateful to you for everything you've done for my brand. And for anybody listening, you know, be sure to look in the shownotes to see how you can connect with Jan - he's really easy and accessible, he'll have a conversation with you to see what you're up to and how we can help you - I know that for a fact, and so I just think that you are amazing. And the fact that I met you is like this magical moment in time. And so I just am capturing that in my head like, ah, this moment right now is a beautiful moment. And so, thank you for taking the time today, Jan - you're just incredible. Jan Santos 35:43 Thank you so much Patti. And again, for all the listeners and viewers out there, I am just a vessel. You know, people like Patti are blessings to me - I learn a lot from them, and I do a little contribution to bring their brand to the next level, but I'm just a vessel. Without God's grace. I'm nothing. And again, guys, people like Patti, they are really transforming people's lives. Please do connect with her, check her podcast- Patti Dobrowolski 36:11 Alright, he's promoting me now, I love it. I love it. Thank you, Jan! All right, everybody. You know the drill - if you like what you've heard, please pass it on to your friends, and get everybody to follow and listen to the podcast, and also just follow Jan and his podcast, because it's amazing. And until next time, Up Your Creative Genius. Thank you! Patti Dobrowolski 36:37 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius, then join me next week for more rocket fuel! Remember, you are the superstar of your universe, and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy, get out and Up Your Creative Genius! And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap!

Dr. David Cutler, a self-proclaimed WEEKEND TRAVELER, is a pianist and composer equally comfortable with classical, jazz, popular, folk, and world music. Stretching what it means to be a performer, events regularly involve crazy antics: extreme eclecticism, choreography, humor, interdisciplinary collaboration, superhero costumes, character ushers, celebrity cameos, kazoo playing marching bands, you name it. Cutler's remarkable composition SuperNova dramatically reimagines the most popular string method of all time, SUZUKI VIOLIN SCHOOL, VOLUME 1. While melodies remain unchanged, rhythm section accompaniments are virtuosic and exploratory, inspired by music genres from around the globe (tango to techno, Baroque to boogie). This project includes 4 full albums, a SuperCreativity eCourse, string ensemble arrangements, and more. One of the world's leading voices on ARTS ENTREPRENEURSHIP, Cutler has led keynotes and workshops for Music Teachers National Association, College Music Society, Juilliard School, Dutch Classical Music Meeting, Chamber Music America, New World Symphony Orchestra, Indiana University, and Italy's soundSCAPE music festival. His books The Savvy Musician and The Savvy Music Teacher, which provide tools for amplifying income, impact, and innovation, have shaped a generation of musicians. Dr. Cutler is a distinguished professor of music entrepreneurship at University of South Carolina, and a Yamaha Master Educator. Cutler and his consulting firm The Puzzler Company work with arts, business, and education organizations to foster innovation. His upcoming VISUAL book (illustrations and design throughout) The GAME of Innovation: Gamify Challenge, Level Up Your Team, and Play to Win helps teams turn problems into GAMEs and play to win. Timestamp 1:31 How two different worlds in music shaped David's perspectives 4:03 Making a Difference - The Savvy Arts Venture Challenge 6:46 The birth of “The GAME of Innovation” 8:26 Dissecting the GAME 12:33 How does the GAME result in positive change in a fast paced world 15:17 The Problem Solving Process - getting everyone in play 18:18 Future university work in Indiana, while being a facilitator and musician 21:26 Big changes and success are the result of teamwork 23:37 David's typical daily routines 25:04 Finding sources of inspiration 25:51 Putting the GAME into practice: a COVID case study 32:30 Project management tips for anyone seeking change Social Media LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidjcutler USC Faculty page: https://sc.edu/study/colleges_schools/music/faculty-staff/Cutler.php The Savvy Musician: https://www.savvymusician.com/ The GAME of Innovation: https://www.thepuzzlercompany.com/book Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Transcript Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello, Superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast - where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski, and I can't wait for our guest today - you are going to meet one of the smartest human beings I've ever met in my life. I love him, he's creative - his name is Dr. David Cutler. He's a jazz and classical composer, a pianist, a conductor, a collaborator, a concert producer, a speaker and advocate and author - and author of the newly minted book, "The GAME of innovation"! And let me just say that Dr. Cutler is a distinguished professor with the University of South Carolina, and he's got a whole bunch of things up his sleeve. He's also a collaborator of mine in The Puzzler Company. So welcome, David, woo! Here we are in the podcast. David Cutler 01:27 Thank you, Patti. It's always so great to talk to you. You're one of my favorite people in the world. Patti Dobrowolski 01:31 All right. Well, I love that - I'll take that on. So I would love for people to hear your story, David, because it's fascinating to me how you got to where you are. And you're so wacky - if you Google him, you'll see just how wacky he is. But tell us a little bit about how you got into music, how you started to be helping other entrepreneurs in the music industry and other arts industry to expand themselves, and now your journey into corporations. What are you doing? Tell me all about it. David Cutler 02:01 Well, my story. Well, it goes way back when I can't quite remember what happened first, music lessons, or my mom yelling at me. Patti Dobrowolski 02:11 Either one, both work. (laughs) David Cutler 02:13 Right, about the same time. But I started playing classical piano at the age of maybe four or five. But even back then, I was not like the other kids. So I'd be playing my Mozart and just, you know, changing the notes and the rhythms, you know, change it up a bit to make it better, which I'm not sure that did but you know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Patti Dobrowolski 02:33 It did. I'm sure it did. David Cutler 02:36 Maybe, arguably. Well, my mom was in the next room and she was not happy. And she would say, "David, that's not what it says, David, play what's on the page. David, you are doing it wrong." Patti Dobrowolski 02:45 Oh, wow. David Cutler 02:46 Even back then. Yeah, it was - it was really tough, Patti. But there was something inside of me that just had to find my own voice, my own take on things. Patti Dobrowolski 02:56 Yeah. David Cutler 02:56 And it was those urges that ultimately led me musically towards both jazz and composition - two places where creativity was not only tolerated- Patti Dobrowolski 03:06 -it was embraced. David Cutler 03:07 Exactly, it was like, the thing. Patti Dobrowolski 03:09 Yeah. David Cutler 03:10 And so these two very different worlds shaped my world, my - you know, my whole perspective on everything from classical music, it was about attention to detail, getting stuff done, having a work ethic; from the jazz world, it was about taking something that already existed and making it your own, walking the tightrope, finding your own voice. And those themes are still with me today. Patti Dobrowolski 03:34 That is so true. And so, but, you know, the thing is that I met you at Savvy 'cause you invited me to Savvy. So tell people about Savvy. Your first book is called The Savvy Musician. You know, the Kronos Quartet wrote a really nice thing, saying you're just, you know, above and beyond, this was the go to handbook for musicians to use to get into business, but tell people about the Savvy workshops that you run, because those are incredible. David Cutler 04:03 They're pretty amazing. Well, over the last 10-12 years, I've been running many different types of what we call innovation games. And sometimes a game lasts an hour or a day, or in the case of this program, the Savvy Arts Venture Challenge, a week. And the idea is to bring together a highly diverse community of people. In this context, the idea is artists - so from all different disciplines, but different ages, races, religions, backgrounds and perspectives. But hopefully, if we get it right, everyone is super amazing, super committed to making a difference in the world. And we put them together in this very intense environment for one week, where they work on teams, and they're charged with solving some kind of a problem. And that ends in a competition - it's a tournament, where they get awards and feedback. Patti Dobrowolski 04:54 Yeah, they do a pitch. It's really - they have to come up with something brilliant that they sell and then some of those get funded, isn't that right? David Cutler 05:03 Absolutely, absolutely. And each season, we've just taken it further and further. And part of that has been, you know, not only bringing together these different perspectives to come up with remarkable ideas. But of course, you and I met in part because of the visual art element - you know, I'm a musician by training - but even most musicians are visual learners first: they just need to see it. So from even the first iteration of that game, one of the really fun things that we've done and something that separated from so many other events, is that in addition to their pitch, each of the teams would create this exhibit - a 100 by 100 inch exhibit showcasing their proposal and their big ideas and their pitch. And so that was actually part of the competition. But we've always brought in visual artists to help with the visual communication about the projects. So by the time you got there, we just had artists in our community, and you were such an important voice in that. Patti Dobrowolski 06:05 Yeah. What I love about you is that, you know, the visual artist of me, which is fantastic. And I would just say to people listening, you know, I was an actor, and I was all these other things and a facilitator. But David really called me out as a visual artist back then, he'd be like, I don't know why you keep saying you're not a visual artist, you are. And so, as a matter of fact, every illustration - almost every, I think, maybe there's only two in that book, "The GAME of innovation" I drew - that was like 500 illustrations in there, and along with all this beautiful layout, that Cara Belloso did - did I say her name right? David Cutler 07:02 Belloso. Patti Dobrowolski 06:46 - Bellosso. And Lance LaDuke helped with- but that is, I think, in a nutshell, that's like Savvy into a book, it's really about how people can work together better, to create something amazing, some kind of change in their community. So where did you get the idea for "The GAME of Innovation", for the book? Because that really came from you - it came from all your work in doing innovation workshops. So tell us just what stimulated you to write such a volume of material that is incredible and laid out so beautifully. David Cutler 07:26 Well, you helped a lot with the beautiful layout part. But you know, for a long time I've been running- Savvy was one example of these, but I've been running these experiences where teams work to solve a problem. We've worked with all kinds of different organizations from different sectors on different kinds of challenges, but the one thing that connected them was they were working as teams to do something different than they've done in the past. And it took a long time to even figure out what it is we were doing. At first, we called it a retreat, but we figured out it is not a retreat. Patti Dobrowolski 08:00 We're not going backwards. We're not holding hands here at all. No. David Cutler 08:04 That's right. And then someone said, well, maybe it's - it's like a bootcamp. And it is kind of like a bootcamp. Patti Dobrowolski 08:10 It is. David Cutler 08:10 And we're working hard, but it's more than that - because in boot camp, you're just training; here, we're getting something done. So we went through all these different concepts. And actually our colleague, Lance LaDuke, it came into focus one day in talking to him and we were just chatting, we said, you know, this is kind of like playing a game. Patti Dobrowolski 08:26 Yeah. David Cutler 08:26 And we went further with this idea of "game". Ultimately, "GAME" became an acronym that is kind of the foundation for all of the, you know, productions - all of the events that we run. G.A.M.E. stands for: "G" - guidelines, which is what constraints you're trying to solve. Patti Dobrowolski 08:44 That's right. David Cutler 08:45 What's the problem you're trying to solve? What are the non negotiable constraints? What constitutes success? Then there's "A", Arena, which is what do you have to work with? Who are your puzzlers, the people that are solving the problem? The period - how long do you have? And the place - where are you going to do the problem solving? "M" is Materials - the tools of problem solving, whether they're virtual tools, or physical ones, like crafts, and post it notes, and all the things that you have in front of you right now. And "E" is about the Experience - what are the questions that are asked, in what order, and for how long. And so, that's really where the idea of the GAME came from. In terms of the book, Lance and I got this idea that: Wouldn't it be cool if we didn't just talk about gamifying innovation, but it actually looked that way? And I still remember when we approached you about working on this project, and we're like, Patti, we have a crazy idea - you want to put this together in a book. And it has been so rewarding and different from anything I've ever done before, because of course the other books were word books- Patti Dobrowolski 09:51 Yes. David Cutler 09:51 -and this was a visual book. And what I've learned, in large part because of you, is that - you know, maybe a beautiful word, or word with a great sense of humor, or word with a long fancy background - but when you've got too many of them, it just looks ugly in a visual context. Patti Dobrowolski 10:12 This is so funny, because when we first you know, David would send iterations of the book - and me and Cara, we'd be like, "Too many words! Too many words - get rid of the words, streamline!" And you were so fantastic. Like, what I love about you is that you took feedback and take feedback - it's this really extraordinary pace, like you take it in, and then you figure out, how can I do that? Is that the right feedback? You know how to sort and sift for what's good. And then you flip - you flip the thing over and back. David Cutler 10:44 Yeah, I mean, part of that feedback actually came out of music lessons. That's what you do when you're working on perfecting music. In this case, I remember, even before I started, when I was just putting this together, I knew that I needed short sentences, short paragraphs. I made the Google Document kind of look like the book - so a page of text would be a page in the book. And I will never forget sending in to you my "concise poetry" - and you said, "Oh, my God, David" - it just goes on and on and on and on. Like, what? There are no words there, what do you mean? I said, can you just show me some examples? And you went through and just went slash, slash, slash - and it really changed my life and the whole way that I write every sentence now. I learned so much from that, and I'm really grateful for your insights. Patti Dobrowolski 11:34 Oh, well, you know, I mean, I'm grateful that you accepted the feedback. Because what I know now is this book, not only is it incredibly beautiful, like the way that Cara has laid this out, like, here's one of my favorite pages: you know, it's got these incredible illustrations, but it's full color. And so this makes it beautiful to hold and look at - every single person that I've given a pre copy to, they've said the very same thing, "Oh, my God, that book is gorgeous", and I'm like, yes, because we want you to have an aesthetic experience. All of us are about the aesthetic experience, and making it an experience that you get into and you want to read more, and you want to learn and apply the process. So what's your dream of that book? What are you envisioning is going to happen now that you've got the book and it comes out, you know, it will come out shortly - may have even dropped by the time this podcast comes out - but what's your big vision of that? David Cutler 12:33 Of course, the whole reason for doing any of this is to help organizations and teams make positive change in a world that is changing at an exponential pace. So we use the book and a whole bunch of ways - sometimes it's, we get the privilege to work with the organization first, and then afterwards, they will get this state to go deeper into the methodology; and it works the other way too. So we have many different types of organizations, buying bundles of the book to give to employees, or partners, or collaborators. The idea is to get them to start thinking about how might we work, team wise, to solve some of these challenges we have in a very non threatening way. You know, one type of leadership that does not work so well is the top down thing - "we've got to do this, I'm going to tell you how to do that". First of all, if it comes from the top - I mean, it's just impossible that the CEO is going to have all of the best ideas. It's always better when you're collaborating. But even if they do, it turns out people do not like being told what to do. But you know, you can't tell people what to think, but you can tell people what to think about. And that's what good processes do. And so the hope is that with this book, it just gets people to start to think about what changes we need to make, what's the most important problem to start with? And with the resources we have, the hand we've been dealt - what can we actually do? Patti Dobrowolski 14:02 Wow, I love that. Because what I know from working in big companies is that: there's always one change initiative or another that's happening, and that if you can get good at understanding the process that you could use and make it creative and fun and turn it into a game, it's so much more fun. You know, somebody just called me yesterday and said: you know, you came and did this, it was so much fun - you made it gamified, the whole room - and I'm like, yep, and we'll do it again. She's like, "That's good, because we want you to come back", and I think to myself - that's really what people need. We have enough people telling us what they think and what they think we should do. We have a lot less fun and play - and this book, to me, really gives permission to people to A) understand how to interact with other people that are different from you. The prickly personality is a big part of it - I love that part of the book. Understanding really what motivates them, so we understand that everybody's perspective is good, and that you need to work with people to figure out where can we put their strengths in this environment, and how can we work with them - so that we can get the best out of all of us, and that book really shows you how to do that. David Cutler 15:17 For sure. Your people are the right people - you know, sometimes when solving a problem, you have the permission to really figure out who are the most qualified people to work with on this problem? And how can you identify folks who all care about the root issue, but intersect with it in different ways? Patti Dobrowolski 15:36 Yeah. David Cutler 15:36 But a lot of times, the people you got to solve problems with are just folks that got stuck on the elevator with you, there are people in your- Patti Dobrowolski 15:42 Volunteers, they're volun-told to go into the committee. (laughs) David Cutler 15:47 And those people are the right people, because they're the only people. So as I see people wishing, "Oh, I wish we had different people here" - you don't. So how can you get the most out of this community? And in terms of - you know, in the first part of the book, when we really talk about the GAME structure, there are no solutions. It's just about, let's look at this part of designing the process. And I think that's very difficult for a lot of people because they just want to dive in and figure out what should we do. Patti Dobrowolski 16:14 They want to solve it because it's painful, and they know that the process might be painful - they might have to reveal themself or their ideas or go machinate - because we all have that experience with working in a team in the past. So- David Cutler 16:20 Totally. Patti Dobrowolski 16:29 But, that's part of the beauty of working out, working a problem all the way through. David Cutler 16:36 So totally. So much of our educational experience is about we're told the answers, right? When having a test, the job is to come up with the right answers. But great innovators focus a lot of time on thinking of the right questions, right before they even start to consider what the solution might be, just thinking of a provocative question that might get us to think in a different way. So we had to be very disciplined, and we encourage people to be very disciplined to really think about the process before you get anywhere close to solutioning. And then when you bring people in, not only does that - if it's a great process, you know, when you start a game, you have no idea what the end game is going to be, what the solutions are going to be. But a great process is designed in such a way that multiple great solutions are almost guaranteed. Patti Dobrowolski 17:27 Yeah. David Cutler 17:28 And by bringing people in, what you do is not only get their ideas, but you also get their feeling like they're empowered- Patti Dobrowolski 17:36 They're part of it. David Cutler 17:37 Absolutely. Patti Dobrowolski 17:38 They came up with the solution for it. And I love that - when we did something at the University of South Carolina, where you teach, we did that around creating a space where people could collaborate, like a drop in place and all of that. And there were so many multiple perspectives that came into that process, and so many amazing ideas that came out of it. So now- David Cutler 18:01 And not every idea - not every idea can get selected. But I think people just feel- you know, but although we will take a little bit of this one, a little bit of this, a little bit of that one. But I think just by enabling people to be part of the process to play the game, they feel more excited about the initiative. Patti Dobrowolski 18:18 Yeah, that's fantastic. Now tell us what are you doing now? So the book's coming out, and so then what's happening in your world - your personal world, because you got invited to be the guest Dean and tell us a little bit about that. David Cutler 18:34 Things are happening at this moment - of course, I continue to go and work with organizations and designing these innovation games and giving workshops that are hands on and interactive and the likes - and so that's an important part of my life. But I was invited to serve as an interim dean for a University in Indiana - so well, I almost have about a year-long game to solve where they have a lot of amazing assets and some big challenges: they're going to transform their model, they're taking a school that's built in a certain way, and expanding it and changing the vision to actually become a creative school. So the question - what does that mean to have a creative school? What does it look like? What kind of offerings will we have? How do we get interdisciplinary connections to happen? And so it will be extraordinary in wearing that hat, to have a year with that community to kind of work through this and build a sense of team that hopefully is all "plan this to win" and do something unprecedented and extraordinary. You know, Indiana has all of these communities that are spread all over - and it's a, it's a very small town, which has its own inherent challenges and opportunities. And so one of the great things about having a university in a town, is to figure out how can you really touch each aspect of this community that's around you. Patti Dobrowolski 20:00 Yeah, I love that. That sounds like a perfect game for you to play. I love it. They don't have no idea what they're getting with you, the jewel coming into their community - that's the way I see it. So that's what you're doing next year. And then- David Cutler 20:16 That's a part of it- Patti Dobrowolski 20:17 Yeah. What else are you doing? What else you got- David Cutler 20:19 Well, just, you know, we all wear many hats. So I'm still working as a musician, and I'm working with all kinds of organizations. When I just look at one calendar, we've got four different organizations in the same week, which is super exciting. And this kind of work and you know, every community has its own aspirations, has its own challenges, has its own fears. And so part of the process is just working through all of those. Patti Dobrowolski 20:48 Wow, and this thing I know to be true about you from having been in, you know, at least three of those sessions with you, Savvy, and otherwise, here's what I know - is that, you're one of the best listeners I have experienced. Like, you really understand how to listen to people and then reflect back what it is that they're saying, in such a way that the whole room feels heard and seen by you. So I think Indiana, they're just gonna have a blast with you. Of course, I think you're gonna ruffle some feathers there, I hope? Because that always is the good thing. Right? David Cutler 21:26 Well, thank you for saying that. You know, that really has been the first step in this pre- moving to Indiana period - you know, for that question is I've just been - you know, I haven't started yet. I don't have the budget, I don't have any authority - but what I do have is a Zoom account. So I've been setting up all of these meetings just to talk to people and to ask questions, and to listen and build rapport and understand. It's this reconnaissance - just to learn, yeah, what do we have to work with? And what are the landmines ahead? And what are the aspirations of folks? And how can we work as a team? And how can we put people on that team and positions where they're most likely to succeed - which may not always be the position that is most comfortable, or most familiar, or what they've even seen themselves do in the past. But I really feel to, in order to make the big important changes - we have to do this together. It can't be just one individual or this, you know, small community of leaders to do it, we really have to pledge. So it's very much like a sport - we are working as a team, moving towards the large goal of success. And it doesn't mean that everyone's going to get their way for every single thing; I promise, we will listen to what you have to say and see if there's a place for it, but ultimately, ideas belong - this is a core belief that ideas belong not to individuals, but to the team. Doesn't matter your rank. Patti Dobrowolski 23:02 Yeah, and especially when you're trying to make change, it's even better if you can forget your rank, right? So that you can come in at a level - find a way to make it a level playing field by being authentic and showing up, right? And I think you do a great job of helping people to step into that, remember who they are, who they were before, who they are now, right? So that they can respect other people. Now, so in the day of David Cutler - what happens in a day, what do you do in your day? What kind of rituals do you have, what's it look like, start to finish? David Cutler 23:37 Mmm. Yeah, I do feel like I'm one of those people that doesn't really have a typical day, because I just wear many, many hats. But there are pieces of the day that I try to keep consistent, and I try to at least touch a piano for some minutes every day. I try to be curious every day, I try to connect with people every day. So you know, it's very inconsistent schedule when you're on the road, obviously, there are planes to worry about and there are projects to worry about - but I am very aware of not just time, but also project management, and making sure that there's always forward motion, that every day I'm a little closer to something important than I was yesterday. Patti Dobrowolski 24:22 Yeah, I think you really inspire people to build a legacy in whatever it is that you're doing. And, and I think that is really one of the things that I love about you and I respect that you have, you know, came into the town of where the University of South Carolina is and you transformed the town. You really embraced the town, you included the town - you included everyone in it. So, you know, I'm sure you're quite the celebrity there, you know, in many circles because of the kinds of transformation that you brought there. And I think that's what Green Hill, Indiana, right? Green Hill? David Cutler 24:59 Greencastle. Patti Dobrowolski 25:00 Greencastle - oh, that's even better, Greencastle, Indiana. David Cutler 25:04 It is nice, isn't it? (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 25:04 It is - sounds very good, it's going to have an experience with - now, who inspires you right now? Who's inspirational to you? David Cutler 25:12 Well, you're inspirational to me, Patti. Patti Dobrowolski 25:15 Thank you. David Cutler 25:16 I find inspiration and all kinds of people - I do a lot of reading, I just- I'm looking at a book over there called "Teaching Change", written by a gentleman named Jose Bowen. I've been reading a lot of books lately on - culture is where I've been focused recently. I listen to a lot of speakers, I look at a lot of art, and the likes - I try and find inspiration from all kinds of places. And often I don't succeed every single day, but I try many days to see if I can push myself to do something that I've never done before. Patti Dobrowolski 25:47 Yeah, do something different, right? I think that- David Cutler 25:50 And that kind of curiosity- Patti Dobrowolski 25:51 Yeah. Well, I was gonna ask you to- you know, so when you come up against a challenge, or a problem to solve, what kind of game do you play with yourself around it? Is it different every time? Or do you often find yourself using a particular game to solve it? David Cutler 26:12 That's a really good question. I mean, it is different, because every problem is different. And also, by playing different games, it causes you to come up with different solutions. But I've always tried to be the kind of person that: if 1000 people look at something, and 999 see it one way, to be the one who finds a different kind of solution. And I can give a big example, which has impacted all of our lives. Now, let's try and see if you hit an obstacle: is there a way you might look at it as an opportunity, so that what you do on the other side is better than if you had not hit that obstacle in the first place? And an obstacle that has challenged all of us in the last few years, of course, has been COVID-19. Patti Dobrowolski 26:58 Yeah. David Cutler 26:59 COVID. And it's- you know, I don't want to belittle it in any way - I mean, it touched all of our lives, it's been difficult for many of us, we didn't see other human beings. For many years, many people died from this thing - so I don't mean to minimize that. But in a moment even like that, I was determined from the beginning of it, and for myself, and for various communities, where we're - what is the opportunity in the moment? We have to be better as a result of this thing. You know, Patti, I am- you know, I'm an innovator to my core. Patti Dobrowolski 27:33 No doubt. David Cutler 27:34 I am not nearly as creative as COVID-19. Like, I'd never think, or done- a world where you'd have to be six to 12 feet apart, wearing a, you know, a Darth Vader costume, just to get by anyone. I mean, you never could have imagined it. And of course, when you change the rules, you change the game - and the world changed the rules on us. And so, on so many levels. I went into that moment thinking: how can we become better because of this? And as I hear people say: I can't wait till this COVID stuff goes away, so we can just get back to the way things used to- Patti Dobrowolski 28:10 -it was, yeah, the way it was- David Cutler 28:12 -first of all, it ain't going back to the way it was. Second, you weren't that happy with the way it used to be - do you remember just two years ago, most people weren't that happy with it at that moment? And third, isn't it a shame to wish away years of your life, right? This is, this- now we've got a new tragedy that's happening, and there will be another one after that - but this is life. The moments of our life are the moments of our life. And so to lean into that, I can give you an example of one of the things we did here in South Carolina. Patti Dobrowolski 28:46 What's that? Tell me. David Cutler 28:47 -came out of a game. But basically, this was the idea: as musicians and artists, what do we do? What is our need, at a moment like this - when every performance venue worldwide is closed down? Patti Dobrowolski 29:00 - shut down, shuts down. David Cutler 29:02 What do we do as musicians? I mean, we can't cure you. We can't give you the vaccination. We can't. I did some volunteer work, just helping people get signed up for vaccinations - I filled out this form, I never felt so worthless - I had no skills except for telling jokes on the form. So one of the things that we came up with is, you know, one of the things we can do is we can offer art in a way that tells a story and builds community. So we came up- if you can get people together. So we came up with this initiative called Celebrating Local Heroes with the concert truck. Part of that - the first part, Celebrating Local Heroes, was - we identified 10 professions that were on the frontlines of this pandemic. And then we went through a whole process where we had folks nominated and ultimately identified these 10 neighbors - not the CEOs, but people in the trenches doing amazing work as nurses and truck drivers and grocery workers and custodial staff and the likes. Then we had to figure out how can we offer art - and we came up with this idea of a concert truck that would go throughout the community - some former students of mine invented this thing several years ago before COVID as another cool way to experience music - now, it's the only way where it was for a while. And we create all these concerts around town: we made these vignette videos that were scored by local composers and recorded by local ensembles, we created community conversations where they came together and would just talk as neighbors but also had an artistic underlying. And I'm so A) proud to have done this really meaningful thing for our community during that. And I'm so inspired by these neighbors who do such important work. It changed- Patti Dobrowolski 30:55 -It was very moving - I watched it, I watched the live stream of it, It was incredible. It was really incredible, and the music was beautiful. And the people that you - you know, brought up in front of everyone and acknowledged - it was really, really so very cool. So I love that idea. That was a perfect way to bring together a community during a time of, you know, crisis in a way and serve them with no ask on your end, right? David Cutler 31:25 No ask, other than just be part of this community. And you know, we're all in this together. One of my favorite stories from that is, remember, one of the truck drivers who's talking is like: "You know, when you're on the freeway, and a truck gets in your lane, and it's so slow, and you can't switch lanes and get so frustrated, you're pulling out your- you're cursing under your breath, you're pulling out your hair? So that's me, delivering toilet paper." Your local grocery store at the time, you don't remember when the aisles were just empty? Patti Dobrowolski 31:54 Yes, yes, yes. David Cutler 31:55 That just makes you think we are all in this together - we all have a role to play. And since that, I have not looked at a car or a truck or a building in the same way. Patti Dobrowolski 32:05 Oh, I love that. I know, that is so amazing - that's such a beautiful story. Well, I wish I could talk to you all day, but I'm going to wait until the book comes out, and we're going to come back and talk more about it. So tell us, really: From your perspective, so if somebody's out there that really needs to make a change, and they aren't quite sure what to do or where to go, what are some tips you would give them about how to pivot? David Cutler 32:30 Well, one of the most important lessons that I would stress and something that I've been working on in my own life - you know, we talk often about time management, and time management is very important. But the idea of project management - I mean, seems kind of obvious, if you've got a project that will take you, you know, two spaces further, and another one that will take you six spaces, you should do the one that's going to take you further in life, yet people often don't make that choice. And furthermore, finding projects that interlock: so that with each problem you solve, you're building something bigger and more important, as opposed to being, you know, veering off in so many directions, that each effort actually competes with everything else that you do. So I think that would be my number one step: is to take some time to really figure out, what is the single most valuable project for you? And then how do you get that done? What kind of process will get you there? Patti Dobrowolski 33:32 I love it. And I'll add to that, you know, find yourself a mentor to help you because I think that's what's been very valuable about the process of working with you - I see you as somebody who gives me feedback, I give you feedback - and that's part of how we grow and learn. Like, you're in a whole space that I never lived, in the music world - other when I was a bad rapper, which we've experienced, we've experienced that together, so- (laughs) But you're amazing. And I think of you - when I think of you I think of one of the videos I saw of something that you did, where you've got a grand piano and you're playing it, but there are ping pong balls inside. And so it's just this beautiful little metaphor for how life is - you know, add something different, something on top of it that will surprise an audience and surprise yourself, too - take the risk and surprise yourself, which you certainly have done over and over again in your career. So I'm excited about this next risk you're taking to be the Dean, and I can't wait to hear how it goes for you. David Cutler 34:36 Thank you. Patti Dobrowolski 34:37 Well, thank you so much for coming and just speaking to us and inspiring us. You're just such an inspirator - I love having you here. And so thanks for your time today, David. It's been really incredible. David Cutler 34:50 Well, thank you. I just have to say, you know, when you work on a great team, it is truly - it fills you with life; and the whole experience of working with you and Lance and Cara on "The GAME of Innovation" has worked the way that a team is supposed to work. Everyone had their own contribution that made - I could never have done this on my own, and none of you could have done on your own, or any of us individually. It is so much better because we were in this together. So thank you for that, Patti. Patti Dobrowolski 35:19 I love that. Thank you, David. All right, everybody, you know the drill. If you like what you heard, be sure to forward it to your friends, and go and pick up your copy of "The GAME of Innovation", transform your community, transform your your team - everything you need to know about how to have fun and create change is in that material there. I love it, and we'll be doing some other YouTubes about it. I'm sure we've got - you've got a whole bunch of stuff up your sleeve, so I look forward to that. And until next time, please, everybody: Up Your Creative Genius. Patti Dobrowolski 35:58 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius, then join me next week for more rocket fuel! Remember, you are the superstar of your universe, and the world needs what you have to bring - so get busy, get out and Up Your Creative Genius! And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap!

Originally from the Minneapolis area, Scott Ward studied commercial design and illustration at the University of Minnesota. Scott has worked as an artist and designer in advertising, clothing design, graphic design, theater design, landscape design, interior design, illustration and murals, and has shown his paintings in many galleries around the country. After his introduction to The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron, Scott found himself facilitating creativity groups and eventually becoming a community leader with a focus on community development and engagement. He presently serves as the Executive Director of the Fairhaven Association in Bellingham, WA. Scott still finds time to create art. Timestamp 2:22 Growing up as an artistic kid 3:03 Discovering The Artist's Way 4:26 Being a full time artist-entrepreneur 5:52 Getting into the world of community engagement 7:12 Fairhaven's initial organizational challenges and dealing with them 9:12 The importance of giving credit whenever it is due 12:15 Managing time as an active artist plus community leader 13:55 Drawing up the blueprint for Fairhaven's future 14:23 Working on the Space Needle mural project 18:27 Analyzing elements of Scott's artwork 20:04 Daily routines and rituals to power through the day 23:48 When rejection from priesthood brought clarity to life's purpose 25:30 Leaving a legacy and making a difference 27:15 Dealing with challenging decision making processes 29:16 Painting the big picture: keeping the whole community in frame 30:14 Thoughts about the future 32:56 Change is inevitable - taking small steps as a budding artist Social Media Website: scottwardart.com Instagram: instagram.com/scottwardart/ Facebook: facebook.com/scott.ward.18062 Enjoy Fairhaven: enjoyfairhaven.com Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Transcript Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello, Superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius. Oh my gosh, okay, I just want to say: my most favorite person in the world today is on the podcast - Scott Ward. And Scott Ward, if you don't know him, he's an amazing visual artist, who became an accidental Executive Director for the Fair Haven Business Association. It's not really the business association, but the Fair Haven, you know, Association for where he lives. But he is amazing. He's been an actor, he's created clothing. He's done everything possible - interior design, like if you look out in the world, at things, you'll see Scott Ward imprinted on most of them. And he has a beautiful collection of artwork that has really just kept its its beauty over time - I was gonna say it's just so iconic, the stuff that you draw, I have a number of them in my home, I will say - and one of them he gave to us for our wedding, which is just so incredible. So, I thank you, Scott, for being here. Hey, by the way, I didn't mention this, but he also is a musician and singer. Really incredible. Okay. Welcome to the show, Scott. Scott Ward 01:51 Hi, Patti. It's nice to see you. Patti Dobrowolski 01:53 Nice to see you too. And so we haven't seen each other in a long time. Because of COVID - It's kind of a drag. I know but just in another month, I'm going to be standing - hopefully, cross your fingers, you know - side by side with you, that will be so incredible. So, Scott, tell people about you. How did you become an artist? And then how did you end up working as the executive director in Fair Haven? So, get us in the trajectory of how you, from the beginning of time, bring us to the present moment? Scott Ward 02:22 Yeah, it's not the life I ever imagined. You know, I grew up as the artistic kid. That's what I was recognized as, everybody saw me as the artistic kid. And fortunately, I had a couple of really fantastic teachers in Junior High, in high school who globbed on to me and said, "We're going to nurture you as much as we can", and then, you know, after high school kind of pushed me on my way. And then, you know, I went to school and studied fine art, and realized I could never make it as a fine artist; I have to, you know, get jobs that pay me. And so I was doing all that design work that you mentioned: I was doing interior design, and clothing design and graphic design and, um... Patti Dobrowolski 03:00 You had a whole line of cards at one point. Yeah. Scott Ward 03:03 Yeah. I worked for a card company and was just drawing - making little goofy cards. And then in 1994, actually, Patti, you sent me "The Artist's Way" - the book by Julia Cameron. And it had just come out, and at the same time, another friend of mine in Seattle found the book and recommended it, and I thought: I should maybe pay attention to this. And so, you know, over the next few years, I not only studied that book and went through it, but started leading and facilitating groups to get other people to go through that book. And it's a fantastic process. You know, it's set up to be this and discover your creativity, really, it's a whole life purpose kind of process. And so in that I realized, wait a second, I'm being a little hypocritical in that I'm urging all these other people to be artists in the world, and I'm just avoiding it by being a designer, which was not a bad thing - it just wasn't completely who I was supposed to be. And so, you know, I jumped into being a full time artist, like right away. And within six months, I had my first show at this little restaurant in Seattle and sold a few pieces there. And then six months later, I had my very first one person show in this gallery in Pioneer Square in Seattle, where all the- Patti Dobrowolski 04:15 Really, really big deal. Scott Ward 04:17 Really big deal. And you know, the amazing thing that happened there was I sold every single piece in that show. Patti Dobrowolski 04:24 Oh my god. Scott Ward 04:26 Yeah. And so you know, it had to have started as an idea like a full time artist, and then a year later have a sellout show - it was a real fast trajectory. And it was a little overwhelming. I mean, it was stressful because I thought: how am I supposed to live up to that, right? It was like yeah, oh my god, this success is kind of unbelievable. What am I supposed to do with it? And so, I had a little bit of a dip or I thought, you know - can I really do this? But now it's saying that in the next 15 years I was a full time artist and you know, traveled around the country and did shows in a lot of different places and became the representative artist for several different nonprofit organizations and really was having this really fantastic artist's life where I was meeting fascinating, interesting people and going places that I never imagined being and doing a lot of commissioned work. So, creating artwork that never would have crossed my mind. And at the same time, I got to work with you, and this process of your unfolding and the graphic recording and change management stuff, and so learned a lot in that. So, fast forward to being a full time artist: we were living in Seattle, and moved into the Magnolia neighborhood, which is a nice affluent neighborhood that has a little village and my partner, husband owns a little shop there. And I thought, well, you know, I should probably connect with the business community, 'cause sometimes being an artist can be a solitary experience, right? Patti Dobrowolski 05:52 Yes, definitely. Scott Ward 05:52 It's a lot of time at the easel. And if you're at all extroverted, that can become a really challenging life. And so I thought I needed to connect with the community and got engaged with the Chamber of Commerce there. And the Chamber of Commerce, there was kind of a mess. And not kind of a mess, it was really- Patti Dobrowolski 06:12 It was really a mess. Scott Ward 06:13 It was really a mess. And I thought, I think I know a few things that might be able to help them move forward. And so I stepped in and you know, within just a short amount of time became president of that Chamber of Commerce. And I have to say, that really is a lot of the work that I was able to do with you allows me to say to these folks, you know, let's get some clarity in what we're doing here, right? You have a vision, but you're not really living into it. And so let's really revisit that and start to line up with who we're supposed to be in the world. And so I made some changes there, which meant basically a whole turnover in their board. And- Patti Dobrowolski 06:54 Oh, yeah, it was tricky. It was a tricky time. Scott Ward 06:58 It was a tricky time, but I- You know, usually I'm so diplomatic and level-headed, and there were a couple of times where I lost it with them. I'm like: You are like 14 year old kids! I was yelling at them- Patti Dobrowolski 07:12 Oh my gosh. Scott Ward 07:12 You know, it was kind of what needed to happen because they were just stuck in a rut. And so anyway, now we live in Bellingham. And because I had that experience in Seattle, when we came to Bellingham, the little village that we live in is a neighborhood within Bellingham- Patti Dobrowolski 07:29 -called Fairhaven. Scott Ward 07:30 Yeah, Fairhaven. And it's a historic district. It's really sweet. And it's had this community / business association in existence since the mid 70s. So it's been around for a long time. And it was a completely volunteer organization. Patti Dobrowolski 07:45 Yeah. Scott Ward 07:45 And, you know, saying that those volunteers were able to do some really fantastic things over the years, like they really preserved the historic character, they created some wonderful events and some programs. However, there was a lot of dysfunction in what was happening, because the volunteers, they turned to their friends and they'd say: Hey, I want to put a statue in the village green. And their friends would say: Hey, yeah, let's do it. And then they would do it. And then they'd go to the board and say, Hey, we need $45,000- Patti Dobrowolski 08:14 To put that statue up. Scott Ward 08:16 Yeah. And the board would say, okay, great. And they'd kind of rubber stamp it, but there was no accountability, or no- Patti Dobrowolski 08:21 No plan, right. Scott Ward 08:22 No plan and no alignment with everything else that was happening. So every time somebody got a little wind to do something, they would do it. And that caused a lot of rifts in the relationships of the folks that were doing things. You know, it's like this recycled volunteer group that just went through, people would get upset, they get their feelings hurt, you know? And- Patti Dobrowolski 08:44 Yeah, like every volunteer organization, you know, you're like a piece of coal when you go in and you're a diamond when you come out, because- or you're kicked out one or the other before you're a diamond. Scott Ward 08:54 Yeah. And so there was this core group of volunteers that really had been active since the 80s. You know, it's only a handful, like half a dozen of them. And they would, like you said - they'd split people up, they use them, split them out, and became really, really dysfunctional. And so we show up, and of course, they had- Patti Dobrowolski 09:11 And you set up Current and Furbish. Yeah, you have that beautiful little shop there in Fairhaven, and everybody should go see there because it's fantastic. Scott Ward 09:21 Yeah, it's a great little shop and a great little village. And, you know, I thought - maybe I just should be done with this community work because it takes a lot of energy to do that, working with people and all the different personalities - but they came to me and they said: Hey, what do you want to do with us? Because they had written an article about me. So it didn't take long for me to realize that there was a lot of potential here. It wasn't quite as messed up as the Magnolia chamber head. And I saw that there was great potential here. And I also recognize there were some really easy things that could kind of fix what was going on. And that was - you know, one of the things was, in their volunteer organization, they'd never did any kind of acknowledgement - private or public - for their volunteers. There was- Patti Dobrowolski 10:10 Oh my god, are you kidding? Scott Ward 10:11 They didn't send out thank you notes. They didn't really say thank you. They didn't have an end of year celebration and I thought: You know, that one thing would make a huge difference. Patti Dobrowolski 10:24 Yeah, people come back if you appreciate them. That's what it's all about. Scott Ward 10:25 That's exactly what it's about. And then, you know, even just the folks that show up, they want to volunteer for one thing, it's important to acknowledge them, right? It's- Patti Dobrowolski 10:34 Yeah, definitely. Scott Ward 10:35 And even the people that say: Oh, no, no, I don't need anything, do not thank me publicly - find a way to thank them. Patti Dobrowolski 10:42 Yeah, what I love about that is you acknowledge that they have their own way of liking to do that, because everybody's different. So some people, it's mortifying and frightening for them to be acknowledged publicly. So if you can find a way to do it, that gives them the spotlight in their own way. Scott Ward 11:00 That's right. You know, I think it's even as easy as, say, you're in a group, we have monthly meetings, right? And so make sure, like, let's say, John is over there. And John doesn't ever want to be publicly thanked or appreciated, right? Make sure that whoever you're talking to, you say: Hey, I just want you to know that John did most of the work so that John overhears it, right? Then it's this thing where it's private, he gets it, you know, that he's getting it in theory, right? Patti Dobrowolski 11:25 Yeah. Scott Ward 11:25 And that will carry him. Carry him to the next bit of whatever he's doing. Anyway, we come in over - you know, the first few years we were here, I had heard several times, we really have wanted an executive director for a long time. But we just haven't done anything about it. Is this the universe telling me what I'm supposed to be doing? Right? How many times do you have to hear it? Patti Dobrowolski 11:49 Yeah, that's right. That's cool. Scott Ward 11:51 So finally, I just, yeah, went to the board. And I said, okay, it feels like I'm supposed to throw my hat in, help this organization by creating this position. And that's what they did. So that's why I really became the accidental Executive Director. I never intended in doing community work, I thought I was going to be a full time artist. This kind of, you know, exciting life. But I still get to do a little bit of that. Patti Dobrowolski 12:15 Yeah. That's fantastic. So all right. Now you really run Fairhaven, but you're still like a full time artist. Right? So how do you balance all your time of all the things that you're doing, Scott? Cause you have a million things on your plate. How do you organize yourself? Scott Ward 12:32 That's a lot. This kind of counteracts that the artists lifestyle and mindset is that I'm very disciplined. So I know that Thursdays are my studio day, like I have tell everyone - I put on my email, you know, the message, it says, Hey, I'm in the studio today, I'm not going to take your calls. And I'm not going to answer your texts. And so I just really am clear that at least Thursdays, I know, I have a full day of being in the studio. Then, there are other days where I'm a little more flexible about it. But it's- Patti Dobrowolski 13:01 Yeah. Scott Ward 13:01 And then when I'm working for the Association, I'm just really clear like - these are the days I'm available for the Association. But it really is that discipline that makes it happen, otherwise, I don't know how I could do it. It really is a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 13:16 Yeah, I think when you have multiple things going on, it's important to - you have to schedule everything. And you know, people think, Oh, you've got, you know, you've worked for yourself, and so they have lots of free time. And yeah, that free time is filled up with a lot of things that are the behind the scenes part. And you have really finessed that over time, so that you're continuing to show your work, it's really well received, and - you've built Fairhaven into this consistent community engagement, which is awesome. Now you've got like a Draw your Future picture behind you, Scott - did you do that for your organization, for Fairhaven? Scott Ward 13:55 Yeah, for Fairhaven. So three years ago, when I first started the process, we created a strategic plan, because they had had one - we revisited the mission statement, and then created that plan. And so in that three years, we really accomplished everything we had set forth. And so this process now is, what do the next 3 to 5 years look like? So since we've accomplished this, yeah, let's look forward. And you know, this is a fantastic process. People love it. Patti Dobrowolski 14:23 Yeah, it's a little gap analysis, and then you're drawing real time and you're writing words, and you can see, here's this - it's very messy back there. So if you think to yourself: Oh, I can't draw and I can't do that - well, look, it's messy. That's the way we want it to be because you'll call out the things that are most important. And I just want to - for those of you listening, as Scott Ward really has been the behind the scenes studio artist for me for so many years - so these companies that I work with, I often will go in and and I'll do a rough illustration of their vision, but then I bring it home and I have Scott finesse it in the studio. Because I'm not a trained fine artist - you heard him say he was trained - but the stuff is incredible. But I wanted to share this one experience that we had doing a mural for the Seattle Space Needle because I thought this was- So, Scott, tell us a little bit about what happened. When we went in I got a commission to do a mural and the interior for the employees, right. So we ran some focus groups, and then we were going to do this. Now I knew I wasn't a muralist, so I immediately hired Scott to come in - I like wrote him right in the contract, so that I would have someone who actually knew how to do what I said I could do, right? And so, tell everybody what happened. Scott Ward 15:39 Well, we had a lot of things happen. Patti Dobrowolski 15:41 You mean, are you talking about meeting Five Seconds of Summer as they ran past us? (laughs) Scott Ward 15:47 (laughs) It's crazy. But, you know, it was a good process, because we met with all the different department heads and got their input into what this image should be. And it really was - how long was that wall? Patti Dobrowolski 16:01 It was 40 feet. Scott Ward 16:03 Yeah, 40 feet long, and it was just the top half of the wall. So it was this long, skinny- Patti Dobrowolski 16:09 4 feet high and 40 feet long. It was the mural that we did. Scott Ward 16:13 Yeah. And it was kind of basically tell the whole story - the Seattle Center, and the Space Needle. And you know, it was taking all those ideas and putting it into this image, and it really was alike an elaborate map that you would do in, you know, a brainstorming session. It was great. I mean, I loved it. Patti Dobrowolski 16:34 We had a little, a couple of SNAFUs in that though. So okay, so when you do a mural, like you pencil out the whole thing, and just want to say that it didn't totally match the drawing. I was in charge of moving the projector. So that was one of the things that Scott was able to fix. However, we go in to start to- We buy $1,000 worth of these paints, pens, no, paint, what were we- we've got pens- Scott Ward 17:01 We started with the markers. Patti Dobrowolski 17:01 We were going to use Copic markers. So we went in - I had tested it on the paint already, so I knew it would work and we go in on that day to do it. And the first pen stroke that we do, it pulls the paint off onto the pen. So if we spent $1,000 on markers, we were going to spend 5 or 6 thousand dollars to do the whole thing. So I go to Scott: Oh, no, what do we do? And of course, Scott knew the answer - you were like, let's go get some paint pens. Yeah, so we ran to the art store, and then we painted that whole thing together, which was so much fun. Scott Ward 17:38 My favorite was - what was the little misspelling that- Patti Dobrowolski 17:45 It was on the bus. I can't remember what it said, but it was- I missed a letter. Scott Ward 17:51 (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 17:51 I did all the lettering. I had missed a letter in it. But it made sense. We've made sense, what I had written - but it was a funny in-joke, but they made us change it. I can't remember, I wish I had that here so we could show it off. I'll have to look at it, drop in the picture. (laughs) You know, do you prefer to- You did that that large format with me, but you spend many hours and days- you use some repeat images in your illustrations? What did they mean, and why do you use the same images? Tell me a little bit and give us some insight into your artwork? Scott Ward 18:27 Yeah, you know, I think like most of us, we have recurring themes just in our life in general, right. And I think for me, I grew up in Minnesota, in a Catholic German family, and you know, all those things are very restricted, right. And so, are restrictive. And, especially as a gay man it's really restrictive, or as a little gay boy. And so I think I often paint about feeling trapped or wanting greater freedom. So you know, I did a series of images based around cages, birds in cages, and the birds kind of represent the soul, the cages, the situations I find myself in and then there's- I do a lot about home and feeling, wanting to feel a place of home and, you know, connection. Yeah, a lot of that. And I use a lot of green, because green represents growth and life to me and wanting to really grow into fully who I am. So it's a lot about freedom and belonging. Patti Dobrowolski 19:26 Yeah, it's fantastic. And then you had a whole "Red Ball" series, which was really cool - really, so playful and fun. And all of his artwork has been described as very whimsical and it's really beautiful. It's just incredible. So kudos to you for all that sitting at that easel all that time. But now, tell us - I want to know, like what- and I bet you, other people want to know: what's your day look like? Like, give us the run of show for the whole day for you. So we know, like, how do you stay focused and in yourself and how do you, you know, complete your day, what kinds of things at the end? Scott Ward 20:04 You know - like you, I have a little routine that sets me up for the day. So, the first thing I do in the morning is: with my little pot of coffee, I sit down and I write. I journal every morning - I have journaled every morning, for the last, I'm gonna say 35 years. Patti Dobrowolski 20:22 Yeah. Scott Ward 20:23 And in that, there is this great centering that happens - it allows me to kind of get the menial, gritty stuff out and really focus on what's important. And I can't imagine what my life would be without doing that every single day. And in that, it's also this sense of meditation and contemplation that sets me up in a really kind of peaceful and calm way for the day. Then, I do some kind of exercise: I run about four to five days a week, and we live- Patti Dobrowolski 20:54 - About five miles, right? Five to something miles, like, you're crazy. Yeah, he's a crazy runner. I tried running with him, I just want to say: No, no, I can't really- Scott Ward 21:06 I don't really like running. I don't like running. I mean, I like being done running. And a good run is when I don't realize I'm running, right? Like, when the ideation part of me takes place, and I forget I'm running, that's a good run. (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 21:20 (laughs) Oh, my god. Scott Ward 21:22 But it's important, because there is also something really valuable in putting your body into a rhythmic mode that brings up the clarity and ideas. So, problem solving and creative processing all takes place in that- Patti Dobrowolski 21:38 -In movement. Scott Ward 21:39 -uh, physical activity. And that takes place in walking, too, especially when you walk alone - if you're walking with somebody, you have a tendency to have a conversation with them- Patti Dobrowolski 21:48 Yeah. Scott Ward 21:49 -which is something different. And so- Patti Dobrowolski 21:51 -then yourself, talking to yourself in your head - or out loud! Sometimes I caught myself talking out loud - I'm like, don't talk out loud, it's no, not appropriate. Scott Ward 22:01 Yeah. And we live close enough to the village, it's a mile. And so we walk - and that walk also is a really important thing, as far as just staying centered. And so then my day, who knows what the rest of the day is going to be like - with the Fairhaven Association, I sit in a ton of meetings. Like I, you know, it's not unusual for me to have five or six meetings in a day. And, you know, that gets to be a long day. So taking breaks in between, getting outside, moving a little bit is important. Patti Dobrowolski 22:29 Getting coffee. Scott Ward 22:30 Getting coffee, yeah, exactly. Chocolate- Patti Dobrowolski 22:35 All the key things. Scott Ward 22:36 Yeah. And then on my studio days, I really just am so focused on being an artist that it really is basically closing the door to my studio, being in there drawing out new images, or - I do a lot of commission work now, like most of what I do is commission work. And so, really, that process is connecting with the client, and getting their thoughts on what they're looking for. And then, you know, it's all about the creative process on that day, and really is staying focused on being an artist and wearing my painted clothes and not caring what I look like or, you know, being seen. And so - but every day is different. And that's what you get when you are working with, you know, all kinds of different people, and creating all sorts of different programs and events. And, you know, there's something kind of exciting about that, I don't know if I could live a life where every day was the same, right? It just wouldn't be stimulating for me or at all fulfilling - I just think there's something really exciting in the uncertainty of what the day is going to play. Patti Dobrowolski 23:48 Well, and also to - I mean, yours is a life of service. Since I met you, you've always been serving someone - you know, in the community, or you served in your church - you served in all these different ways. And so, say a little bit about why you think service is important, or why is it important to you? Scott Ward 24:08 You know, I recognized early on - well, in my 20s, I wasn't that way - I was pretty self serving, and part of it was this sense of survival - just wanting to know how I was going to make it through this life, because I didn't have clarity and, really, what I was supposed to be doing. And once I realized, oh yes, this is what I'm called to do- Patti Dobrowolski 24:27 You were going to be a priest. I mean, that was gonna be true. That's part of your story, was you were going to be a priest. And then when they found out you were gay, that was it. You had to make a choice. Scott Ward 24:35 Yeah, they rejected me. I mean, they out and out rejected me. And so, that was a huge thing, because for me I felt like, you know, I really am called to the spiritual unfoldment. Patti Dobrowolski 24:49 Yeah. Scott Ward 24:50 To have that kind of thrown back at me was really difficult. I thought: Really? I had this understanding that I was supposed to be making a difference. Not in just my life but in other people's lives. And so, it took me a while to bounce back from that - it was one of the best things that ever happened because it really made me clarify what my role was supposed to be. And being a priest - now, when I look back, I think I would have been miserable. Patti Dobrowolski 25:17 Yeah, so I was gonna say that was a good choice. Definitely. How rigid could that have been, yeah. (laughs) Scott Ward 25:25 There's some things about being a priest that I just found out that like- Patti Dobrowolski 25:30 Yeah. Scott Ward 25:30 And so, you know, just this idea of - I want to leave a legacy. And I think when people become parents, I think that's an easy sense of: Oh, yes, I'm leaving something behind in the world that will make a difference, right? Patti Dobrowolski 25:45 That's right. Scott Ward 25:45 And I don't have kids, I won't ever have kids at this point. And I just thought, what can I leave in the world that will make a difference? Yes, I have my art and my mission with my artists to create inspired and inspiring uplifting images, right? And so, yes, I'll leave that. But I also want to feel like I'm leaving my little corner of the world better than the way I found it. And I think, you know, we say I live in service, but there's a sense of selfishness about living a life of service, right? It is about feeling good about what I'm doing in the world. And, and no, that's not ultimately the goal, it is kind of a byproduct of doing good in the world and lifting others up in the world, right there. There is some satisfaction from that. And that, yeah. And so it really is about the wanting to just leave a positive- Patti Dobrowolski 26:41 Also, you know, you're very good about knowing - like, you really have a sense of 'knowingness' about what you like or dislike - and this I admire in you, because I'm not, sometimes not as clear in some areas around this, so I would default to Scott, when I was choosing certain things: "What do you think of that?" But you have a really clear sense. So when you're in a situation where you feel challenged, and you need to make a decision, what do you do to help yourself understand what the right thing is to do? Scott Ward 27:15 I think it's different every time, right? If it involves somebody else, and there is some, maybe, misalignment in what's supposed to happen - I always remember that the other people or person involved has a whole story that has brought them to their perspective, right? And so to honor that, at the same time, you know, I have a whole story that's brought me to my perspective. And, you know, is there something that can happen that honors both of those stories, right? That's always the place I go to, there's got to be - anything's possible, right? So, is there this solution, is there this way forward that gives a nod to both or all sides of what's happening? So that's one way - if it's just me trying to figure out what's going on, it really is going for an extra run, or spending an extra page writing, or going for a walk - it really is putting myself back out into this place of: Okay, let's kind of ruminate. I also say, you know, before I go to bed, before I fall asleep - I will say: Let's find some clarity about this tonight, right? In the middle of the night, let's bring it into our dreams, let's bring it into our sleep, and let it to kind of figure itself out without my getting in the way. Patti Dobrowolski 28:31 Yeah. Scott Ward 28:32 Right? And so all those things are kind of me trying to get myself out of the way because we can be our own worst enemy. Patti Dobrowolski 28:38 Yeah. You know, we have an opinion about what should happen, we have a - you know, we're always trying to make ourselves look good, our ego gets in there, and then instead of trying to see it from a distant field - like I sometimes will put it on a playing field, because like a chess board, and I can see all the players in the field, and then understand what their position is within that chess game, and then help us move closer to alignment - so that eventually, checkmate, and one of us wins. I mean, not in that sense, but you know, there's a solution that's better than both of us. That's fantastic. Scott Ward 29:16 I actually, uh, as an artist, you know, I see people as different colors and shapes, right? And so, you know, I can say: Oh, yeah, that color and that shape will work next to this one, but this one here, it really needs to be moved over the other side of the painting, right? And so, I kind of see it that way, because I'm so visual, that it just is kind of - for me to create a community as an image. And there's care that has to be done in that, because it's not just saying: Hey, you don't get along with those folks. It's like, really - it's putting into this place that you would work really well over here. You'd be so valuable over here. We need you over here, right? And never, ever, put them- Patti Dobrowolski 29:55 - put them outside of the picture. Scott Ward 29:57 That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 29:57 You're out and you're not in the frame. Scott Ward 29:58 Yeah, that's exactly right. There's - Patti Dobrowolski 29:59 I love that - what a fantastic, but - what a fantastic way of envisioning that. Especially when we talk about community, are you thinking about teams? Are you thinking about whoever it is - family, you know, they all belong in the painting, somewhere. Scott Ward 30:13 That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 30:14 Now, when you think about your future, and you envision your future, what's your big thing that you see happening for you? What's the one thing that you think: Oh, this would be so cool. Like, if this thing happened, you know, that's what I do. Sometimes this thing happened, Scott Ward 30:32 If this thing happened...It's interesting, because I really love my life, like I love my life to be - I actually think it'd be greater if we've been closer to each other. Patti Dobrowolski 30:39 Yeah. Guess we need to change that. (laughs) Scott Ward 30:42 Yeah. But, you know, there's, I think, I don't really have any lofty goals anymore. I think it really is just to continue living, and growing a sense of integrity. Like, really being authentic. I remember growing up, and my parents were young, when they had, like, just basically out of high school. And I think they were still kids, right? When I was even six years old, they were in their mid 20s. And so I remember watching my dad, and he still had his high school friends; and when you hang out with them, he was one person; when he was at home with my mom, he was another person; when he was with us, he was another person; when he was with my grandparents, he was a completely different person, right? And I just watched how he kind of morphed into these different areas. And I realized, even then, that I wanted to be who I was, wherever I was - it didn't matter who I was with, I wanted to be me. And so, I've worked really hard to do that. And I wanted to continue to be able to do that, I still find myself, you know, being maybe a little defensive, or, you know, hold back or whatever. But I just want to be fully me, wherever I am. So I think that was kind of a lofty goal. But it's been an ongoing, lofty goal. Patti Dobrowolski 31:53 Yeah, I think, and it's not always easy. I think, you know, a lot of things push, push everybody, you know, our buttons, and then suddenly we're back in an old frame of mind, where we are seeing things from a very black and white perspective, and we're not embracing and we're not, you know, open to whatever's happening. And I just want to say, you're honestly incredible. I just felt - I as a friend, as an artist, as everything that I've seen that you've done - I just have so much love and admiration for you, that I feel fortunate that I got into your schedule to get you on the podcast, so thank you so much for that. But tell the listeners if you would, like, you know, this is all about making change. Like, we need to learn how to pivot easily and be flexible to it. So what would you say to somebody who's listening, you know, who needs to make a change and isn't quite sure how to do it or wants to become an artist and isn't sure how to step out - what would you say to them to help them bring more of their authenticity to the world? Scott Ward 32:56 First, I want to say that change is inevitable, right? You can sit there and say you don't want to change, fight against it - but think something's going to force you to change. And it's gonna be more painful than if you had made that choice yourself. Patti Dobrowolski 33:07 Yeah. Scott Ward 33:07 And then the other aspect of it is, you have nothing to lose by trying, right? Just try. And so, if you're not going to do anything, you're not going to get anywhere - you can sit and imagine things are gonna happen, but without action, nothing's gonna happen. My suggestion always, for folks that say: Hey, I really do want to be an artist - I say, every day, put yourself out there. And it can be the smallest thing - it's sending an email to a gallery or to an agent and just ask for feedback or, you know, find out what the process is. But everyday, one small thing - it could even be looking up another artist and seeing what their art was like, or talking to an artist and just finding out what they did, or what their day is like. But every single day, just do one small thing. And eventually, you'll start to find things that resonate with who you are, as an artist, and doors will start to open. It may not be what you think it's going to be - in fact, I can guarantee you, it's not ever going to be what you think it's going to be - but you have to be open to that, and trust. Trust is a huge thing. And you and I have talked about this many, many times over the years, because we knew each other when none of what we are now in existence or even what we had dreamed about. And so, you know, we, in the process, both recognize that once you put yourself into that - that journey, that you have to trust you're going to be taken care of. And you and I are living examples that that is true - that once you trust that everything you need is going to be there, it will be there. Patti Dobrowolski 34:43 And that - if it doesn't look the way you think it's going to, just keep going, because something better is on the other side - cause you can't vision from our current reality. So we have no idea what the future is really like. So, if you can get way out there - like I always say, put the most outrageous things on your map, the most incredible things - because believe it or not, those are the things that you're going to be sitting there 10 years later saying, I don't know how that happened, but it did. Look, I put it on that map. Scott Ward 35:15 Yeah, that's exactly right. And I think, because I know you, I give you a lot of credit for the life I have. Because it's been that, that idea that, don't be afraid to, you know, have - what's called the BHAG, right? The Big Hairy Audacious Goal, right? Don't be afraid of that, put it out there. Because if you don't ever put it out there, you're never going to get there, you have to be able to do that there. And, you know, this also reflects or goes back to what it's like to work with people - and a group of people is there are no bad ideas. Right? Every idea has validity, anything is possible. And once you step into that - and the other aspect of is: Yes, set those goals, but you have to take a step - there has to be action behind it. You can't just put the goal out there and then anticipate- Patti Dobrowolski 36:02 -and sit in the chair watching TV at home, you know, it's just not gonna happen. You got to keep putting one foot in front of the other. Scott Ward 36:08 That's right, you can do that drawing and put that goal out there. You can dream about it, but you have to start walking toward it. And you know, like we both have said, you start walking, but then the road is gonna turn left when you thought it was supposed to turn right. Well take go left, because that's going to be a more beautiful road than the right would happen. Patti Dobrowolski 36:29 Yeah, that you ever imagined it'll turn into something you never even imagined. Scott Ward 36:34 Yup. Patti Dobrowolski 36:34 Oh my gosh, God, this was so incredible. I got kind of all moved by just the conversation. It's just so- Scott Ward 36:41 Me too. I love you. Patti Dobrowolski 36:41 I love you too. And it's just so great to have you here. I can't wait to have you back, and we'll have to do some kind of annual thing - and we'll just see where it goes. But for everybody that's listening, I encourage you to follow ScottWardArt.com. You know, go there and see what he's doing. If you're in Fairhaven, go to Current and Furbish, say hi to Cameron, his partner, and also find Scott - because where Scott is, a lot of incredible things happen - and there will always be art and there will always be play and there will always be fun, and probably wine too. I'm guessing- Scott Ward 37:14 Well, I don't know- (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 37:18 There you go. Anyway, I love you so much. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here today. And so, for everybody that's listening, you know the drill - if you liked the show, you know forward it to your friends or, you know, write Scott an email at scott@ScottWardArt.com - just acknowledge him and then in the way that he acknowledges others, and just go out today and you know what to do, just - if you can - Up Your Creative Genius. Thank you so much, everybody! Patti Dobrowolski 37:51 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius - then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring - so get busy! Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly - Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap!

Douglas Ferguson is an entrepreneur and human-centered technologist. He is the founder and president of Voltage Control, an Austin-based change agency that helps enterprises spark, accelerate, and sustain innovation. He specializes in helping teams work better together through participatory decision making and design inspired facilitation techniques. He has helped transform teams from Nike, U.S. SOCOM, Google, the Air Force, Apple, Adobe, Dropbox, Fidelity, Vrbo, Liberty Mutual, Humana, and SAIC. Douglas is a thought leader and master facilitator of Design Sprints, Innovation Acceleration, Team Alignment, Meeting Systems, Culture Transitions, and Change Transformations. He is also the author of four books: Magical Meetings, Beyond the Prototype, How to Remix Anything, and Start Within. He has been published in Forbes, Fast Company, Innovation Leader, and is a regular contributor to The Future Shapers. He publishes a weekly podcast called Control the Room. Motivated by a mission to rid the world of horrible meetings and offer meaningful magical meeings in their place, Voltage Control is calling upon fellow facilitators to transform meeting and innovation culture. From free weekly community meetups to Control the Room–the annual facilitator summit, Voltage Control is building a community of facilitators to change the world. Douglas is active in the Austin startup community where he serves on the board of several non-profits, mentors startups, and advises early-stage ventures. Prior to founding Voltage Control, Douglas held CTO positions at numerous Austin startups where he led product and engineering teams.When not facilitating or coaching facilitators you might find Douglas patching up his Modular Synth, boxing, or doing pilates.  Timestamp 2:12 Doug's early years, and getting into the startup space 2:36 From getting fascinated about collaboration, to an interest in facilitation 3:41 How his first experience as a speaker started his thought leader journey 5:26 What makes a meeting Magical 6:37 Small changes, big results 8:32 Personal experience in dealing with career change 13:17 Making clients acknowledge the human problem 16:33 How to face fear and identity issues in the change process 18:08 Dealing with organizational change as a result of the pandemic 19:43 How the tragic loss of a co-worker inspired creation of the Safe Pledge 23:39 Building a community of facilitators 26:19 Designing a memorable, accessible meeting experience for all 28:36 Doug's typical work day 31:44 Curiosity, creativity and self-challenge: taking small steps to start change 33:27 Upcoming activities and plans  Social Media LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglasferguson/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/voltagectrl SAFE Alliance: https://www.safeaustin.org/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello, Superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody. Oh my gosh, I have Douglas Ferguson here. This guy is an author, a speaker, master facilitator, and he's the president of Voltage Control - and he's going to tell us what Voltage Control is all about - but let me just say that he helps companies to sustain and scale their innovation through design thinking and synthesis of visuals, and creating a Fast to Fail culture - and I love that Fast to Fail idea - so we're gonna get into that for sure. But he's also the author of "A Non Obvious Guide to Magical Meetings" - which if you don't know about the Non Obvious guide books, they're really incredible, and so you want to read his Magical Meetings, reinvent how your team works together. And he's got so much stuff happening that in the shownotes, you got to go right away to Voltage Control and see the events that he runs and the trainings that he has, and the coffee chats - he's just incredible. So, welcome to the show, Douglas. Douglas Ferguson 01:36 Wow, thanks for the warm welcome. And it's good to be here. So excited to talk to fellow facilitators. That's one of my favorite things to do. Patti Dobrowolski 01:45 Yeah, fantastic. I love that you're here. And it was so much fun to read about you and see what you'd been up to, kind of - you know, I love just going behind the scenes and like get any int- Is there any dirty laundry in here? I'm looking for, you know, like, is there anything fun in here? It's all fun in there - your sizzle reel on your website, it's really great and fun to watch, and I was thinking, wow, this is so cool to have you. So tell us a little bit about yourself, would you? Douglas Ferguson 02:12 Yeah, sure. Born in Virginia, it's uh, tobacco farmers and, you know, first generation to make it to college. I was really into computers from a young age, I was playing around on a Commodore 64 programming and even in high school, first program was to make a Frankenstein out of characters, so you know- Patti Dobrowolski 02:34 Yes, yes. (laughs) Douglas Ferguson 02:36 -that was a great use of time, I tell ya. So fast forward after school, I got bit by the startup bug pretty early. This is like in the 90s. I was like working for a startup that wanted to be Facebook before MySpace even existed, you know, it's like, it's like, needless to say, being early is just as bad as being wrong. So I got- I learned a lot, you know, through the years of writing code for tech startups, and then leading engineers and products, people and designers, what it took to build sustainable, highly collaborative teams. Patti Dobrowolski 03:14 Yeah. Douglas Ferguson 03:14 And I was always really fascinated about the mechanisms by which people bring forth collaboration. I didn't even know the word "facilitation" nor had I heard about it, but I kind of conflated it with like, moderation, or I was like, someone does negotiations, and I wasn't really quite sure. But I was always really fascinated with, you know, whether it was extreme programming, or agile or lean and experimenting with these different ways to have better meetings. Patti Dobrowolski 03:41 Yeah. Douglas Ferguson 03:42 And then fast forward to my last startup, which was - you know, I was kind of done with the startup world, and - but through that experience, I'd met the design team at Google Ventures. And on that team was Jake Knapp, who wrote the book "Design Sprints". So I got a lot of people asking me to come and speak on "Design Sprints", and so that led to a whole new world opening up around being a thought leader on this stuff. It was interesting, because I was able to tap all this other experience I had in this love I had for bringing people together - it was almost like a new lease on life, because I realized that, "Whoa, I can do this for a living". Like, I don't have to like a startup and do this with inside the startup, I can do this for a living. That was really, really pretty incredible. Patti Dobrowolski 04:26 Oh, that's so fantastic. What a great way to describe that. You know, on the podcast, about four episodes before you I interviewed Joni Wickham, who was the Chief of Staff for Mayor Sly James in Kansas City, and she grew up on a tobacco farm too. So just so you know, we got a theme going on here. So for those of you listening, anybody can come from anywhere and really become a game changer. And you really have, in this field of facilitation - I think that one of the things that I know to be true about you is that every experience in your meetings is so interactive, that people are just having a blast - though that you know, even though they're working on hard stuff, they're having so much fun. So tell the listeners, like if they get dropped into a meeting with you, or your team, what will be some of the differentiators between meetings they have been in before? Douglas Ferguson 05:26 Hmm. Well, I think one big one is that they'll know why they're there - before they show up. And while they're there, there'll be a very clear understanding of why they're there, and how they can contribute. And they're going to be invited to shape the outcome. Someone in our community once said that, you know, diversity is inviting everyone to the dance. Inclusion is inviting someone to dance. And so, something that happens in our meetings is that you will be invited to dance. Patti Dobrowolski 05:58 Yeah, that's fantastic. And in that dance, you'll tap into your own piece of the vision, because one of the things you talk about a lot - in some of the interviews with you, you talk about how important it is to make a commitment, adapting to the environment to make small incremental change, and know that those small changes add up to big wins when you want to step into your future. So say something about that for you as a person - how did you decide or learn that small things equal big results, eventually? Douglas Ferguson 06:37 It's interesting, I don't know if I can point to one particular moment where someone says "This is the equation to life", or "This is the way things work". But I think that it was just a culmination of a lot of lived experience, or lived experiences where I was always very curious. You know, I was the kind of kid that liked to take things apart and put them back together, and sometimes they didn't quite work the way they worked before. And so, I think one of the things, maybe, that was super pivotal for me: well, early in my career as a software developer, I got really fixated on what now some folks refer to as the "learning loop". And so, the time it took for me to discover that something was broken, or that I had introduced a bug or a defect was directly correlated to how expensive it was to fix it, or how much damage or pain it caused to my co-workers, or to how much money it made the company lose - the longer it took, the more you know, of an impact, negative impact that it would make - and so if I can reduce that time, it was better and better. And then I started to realize, like: Oh, wow, if I also can start to reduce the time to learnings, even when I'm trying things out in the code or experimenting with the way something works, the quicker I come up with solutions to almost the way it starts to become real time. You're almost intuitive, like you try something and you're instantly seeing the results. And so, I think that led me to this understanding of like, oh, wow, you don't have to have everything figured out at once. You can sort of probe the system and understand, and then probe the system and understand, which, like, years later, I came to understand from learning about complexity theory, that that is exactly how you need to operate in a complex environment or complex system, which is where we all find ourselves these days. Patti Dobrowolski 08:32 Yup. And so, that's something about getting yourself to test multiple tests, at the same time of something. I love this conversation we're having, because, you know, for me, I'm always coming up with these new ideas. And then, you know, I want to see: will this work? What, can this work? What about this? And then, I'll follow my intuition around some things, but the key that I think in design thinking is to get your customer involved in the process early enough. So you see if what the solution you're providing is something they can actually use. Because, you know, I love that book - it's about your mother or something? - I can't remember what the name of it is, but it's all about how we often create things that just our mother will like, because our mother likes anything that we do, right? Most of the time. And so, trying to get yourself to do that. Now, what did you see as challenges that you faced in your career trajectory? What did you and how did you learn to pivot and be able to shift from this software and design of the startup environment into this facilitator thing? What allowed you to feel like you had the confidence to do that? Douglas Ferguson 09:45 You know, I think surrounding myself with lots of mentors, and cheerleaders - yeah, like anyone who was willing to tell me that I could do it and help me see blind spots or gaps - you know, I think that really helped. Also, having someone anticipated the opportunity, you kind of, kind of prepare it a little bit. So I had a little bit saved, so I could, you know, could hunker down and go through a period of growth and building, you know? Patti Dobrowolski 10:16 Yeah. Douglas Ferguson 10:17 And then I was just kind of strategic around- it was down to basics, you know, I even created a little bit of budget, like, what do I need to bring in to even live by the most like, economic means necessary. And then, another thing I did is I'm a firm believer in being as economical and scrappy as possible in the beginning. And so, you know, I didn't - we didn't even have a website, we were using- At the time, Medium, let you use custom domains - on Medium. And so I used Medium as my website, because I did- I had a strong desire to blog and write because I felt like if I got my ideas out - Patti Dobrowolski 10:53 - then people would know who you were, and figure out what you were doing? Douglas Ferguson 10:57 Boom. That's the big thing, right? That writing helped me process, and then, meeting with my mentors and talking through those things, and then writing about it just helped me funnel the vision further. And so, those are critical points - are critical elements from the very beginning. Patti Dobrowolski 11:12 Well, now, are you a visualizer? Are you a illustrator, too, as well as being a facilitator? Or do you bring in somebody to do the part of drawing the pictures in that way. Douglas Ferguson 11:24 I'm not an illustrator myself. But I will say that I do like to draw and doodle, and I do express myself visually - but I'm not a finessed illustrator. And so, anytime that we're working with a client, or doing a project, where we want to bring that element in - whether that's because we're wanting to have a multi sensory experience, or you know, quite often we're having to create polished graphics for the website, or for, you know, some kind of like deliverable or whatnot, you know - we have folks on staff, and we have contractors that we work with. And you know, I've got this curse, right, that I have an eye for what I know looks good and is polished and is beautiful, but it takes me forever to get there. And so, that's why it's better for me to work with someone else. I know that deficiency on myself, but it's also somewhat of a curse, right? Because some people will happily be like, that looks fine. And I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, that's not good. Patti Dobrowolski 12:24 I so know this. I mean, I have a studio artist that I'll use, if I feel like, oh, I need something that is just super dialed in for this client - so I'll send it to him, and I'll say, hey can you do this - and then, you know, it's one of those miraculous things when you get that product back, and then it turns into collateral, and you see it on the website, and all of that. You know, trained eyes can see the difference between what I would consider to be my hack - real time drawing, which sometimes is hacking - sometimes if I've really, you know, dialed it in, it's can be spectacular, but it takes a lot of time, right, which is what you're talking about. And sometimes you don't have the time, especially if you're in a meeting, and you've got a lot of things happening now, who do you- you know, like, what's your best ideal client that you've been working with that you love? What are the problems that they're having, and how do you help them? I'm curious. Douglas Ferguson 13:17 Yeah, you know, we work with all sorts of clients, because we're training folks that come to our website and sign up for a course or even certification. And so those students look vastly different, you know - some of them might be work for a nonprofit, so it might be the leader of a Fortune 100, so one might be a freelance facilitator. And so those cohorts are quite diverse, which is kind of fun, because they all learn from each other - and that's part of why the cohort approach is so powerful. But when we're talking about on the private side, where I'm facilitating, or we're doing, like bigger change efforts for clients, you know, I would say the the ones that are- had, were kind of stuck, and really struggling with the change, but they were receptive to change, and they're receptive to support and help. And so, they sought us out and they said, hey, we know we need help, and we're willing to have a guide here. You know, it's like- because oftentimes, people want to just go down the river rapids themselves, oh they think, "Oh, if I just rent their equipment, I'm good to go", but some folks realize, like, hey, it's gonna be helpful to have a guide to navigate these rapids with us. And, you know, it can be all sorts of different things that they're facing, you know, whether it's like we're trying to migrate all of our stuff to the cloud, or maybe our employee onboarding process is broken - or it has been broken forever, but now that we're all remote, it's very, very clear to how broken it is. Patti Dobrowolski 14:50 Yeah, exactly. Douglas Ferguson 14:50 You know, it can be so many different things, but I think the critical thing - just put the cherry on top - that makes it the best clients is when they really, really understand out of the gate that this is a human problem. And this isn't about like, coming in with some logistical, like, change management- Patti Dobrowolski 15:11 Org chart, org chart. Yup. Douglas Ferguson 15:12 Right. Network theory is really important, and that's one of the things we do - is we start to analyze the network. But the org chart is just one of the networks. Patti Dobrowolski 15:20 Yeah, I love that. I think, you know, for years, I would train people in change management. That's what I did, you know, but I always found that - and that's actually how I discovered Draw Your Future, because the meeting was so- They wanted me - the change management company that I worked for - they wanted me to go in with curriculum, and I knew that was never the entry point. So if I could get people to draw right at the beginning and talk about what the experience was like, everything changed right away. And they were open, and then we could figure out, okay, well, what's the solution? And should we try this, this, this - and I tried to give him like a smorgasbord of things, and let them choose. Which is really what I think, in your case, it's all about choice and accountability in the meeting itself, because you can come in with tons of solutions for people - but they're your solutions, and they're not your problems. You're not the one that's living their everyday experience. You might have a ton of people you've worked with like that in the past, but- So how do you handle the clients, or do you ever come across them that just want you to come in and fix it? Douglas Ferguson 16:25 Well, when they want us to come in and fix it, that we had to- We had to take them on that journey to a realization that it is about the people. Patti Dobrowolski 16:32 Yeah. Douglas Ferguson 16:33 -and they have to get on board with the sense of co-authorship, the stuff you talked about, you know, that we are going to be creating narratives about our future, you know, that storytelling is so important. Doing it through graphics, as well as through just oration as well can be powerful. But the point is, like, we had to do that explorative work together, and even look internally around what are the impacts, and how are people feeling, and what are the emotions about all of this? And one big one is understanding the impacts that it can have on identity, because a lot of times change can be very frightening from the sense of like, "I'm not going to be the same person I was". Patti Dobrowolski 17:15 Yeah. Douglas Ferguson 17:15 You know, that's very scary. And a lot of times people don't want to face that fear or don't want to admit it. Patti Dobrowolski 17:20 Yeah, I think this is so critical what you're talking about, because it's the scariest thing about knowing you need to shift personally when you're trying to make a change - is that yes, you will be afraid in that, and if you weren't afraid, I would be worried about you a little bit. You know what I mean? Like, then you'd be cliffdiving all the time - which some people can do it - but, if you can understand that to dive into your own psyche to see "who am I, if I'm not this", or "if I become this", then it's so helpful. Where have you had to do that in yourself? Like, did you have to do anything during COVID? Did it impact you? Did you find, you know- what happened to you in that experience? Douglas Ferguson 18:08 Yes, throughout the pandemic, we've had a few major shifts, and one of them was just the lockdown, and just a lot of the upheaval that happened when so many clients shifted to having to work from home, and just the uncertainty of all that. And from a capability standpoint, we saw this coming pretty early; and for us, the major shift was updating marketing language and just speaking to what we already knew, because at the end of the day, we were running remote workshops, because we couldn't fly into town to do a sales discovery. Patti Dobrowolski 18:48 Meetings, yeah, that's right. Douglas Ferguson 18:49 Right? And so we had programmed that stuff to be remote. And that was, you know- and so we just had to reprogram a few things, we had to like, you know, redo some assets, we had to change copy on our website - those are the main things. And then also, we had to spend time supporting our community who were all suffering, because a lot of the community didn't have experience with diverse distributed teams - they didn't have experience with technology. You know, me being a software developer, we were using neural- well, before the pandemic, we were like- I mean, I've been using Zoom since 2007, early 2007, or late 2006. And that's just how we operated, you know, and so, it wasn't that big of a jump for us, but we had to support the community through that. And so, you know, there was a lot to do. So we're busy, but it wasn't as frightening as some, you know, some people had to really, really reinvent themselves in a major, major way. I would say the thing that was the most, the biggest struggle for us to navigate was when we tragically lost our Head of Operations to domestic violence last fall - and many folks will know about this because we dedicated our conference to her this year, and we've been doing a lot of work with Safe Alliance, which is an amazing organization here in Austin, Texas. And we're about to launch - and by the time this comes out, it may already be launched or might be coming soon after - something called the Safe Pledge, that our work toward creating policies, our own internal HR policies around awareness of domestic violence, how to support discovery and conversations, what to do if we notice certain things that might be concerning, but like, should I do anything? Well, there's training for that sort of stuff. And so, socializing that and having policies around it., and then we're going to take that pledge public and try to get as many companies on board as possible- Patti Dobrowolski 20:43 Adopt it. Douglas Ferguson 20:44 - to raise these practices and adopt it. But yeah, that was- Patti Dobrowolski 20:47 Whoa, that's so intense. And so, you know, unfortunately, it's really common. Douglas Ferguson 20:54 Yes. Patti Dobrowolski 20:54 That's the thing. And sometimes you don't even know how common it is. But when it happens to someone near you, it really hits home - I will do everything I can to promote that. So you just know that - you send me that information, I'll send it to all my top clients and get them on board and get in touch with their HR, see if we can promote that. Because there are things you can do, but you need to know how to have the conversation, and how to- in such a way that the person doesn't feel shamed by it, because the shame will just drive them back. And yeah- Douglas Ferguson 20:56 You know, another thing that I learned from working with Safe so far - and I've got tons more to learn, but - the thing that really just, if we don't know anything else, the one thing we should know is, the time that people are most at risk, is when they're confronting it, just before, or just after they leave. Patti Dobrowolski 21:48 Yes. Douglas Ferguson 21:48 Because it's all about control. And so when they're about to leave, or when they've just left is when their controller is feeling the sense that they've lost control, or they're losing control - and that's when they go off the rails, and that's when really bad stuff can happen. And so, that's something to be very mindful of, and a time to bring in experts and make sure resources are available. Anyway, I think there's lots of ways we can support people that are in situations that, you know, are headed in that direction, or worse. And that's kind of where at this point, you know, having navigated this for a little while, where it's just like, how can we help others avoid similar situations. Patti Dobrowolski 22:27 Well, and so much grief around that - I can feel that, you know, just in you talking about it, and I appreciate so much that you're talking about it with the kind of care that you are, because it's really important. Especially during this time, and especially - we live in Texas, you know, you and I - so it's a bit of a different world, but honestly: if you look anywhere in the world, you'll see pieces of this everywhere, in all forms. And so, to be alert and awake to what people are experiencing, and then give a safe space for people to actually talk about what is happening and support them - I love that. I want to just circle back to what you said about the pivot during the change that you were supporting your community. So I'm assuming, you know, you do these facilitation trainings and certifications - so you send people out on their journey to become their own facilitation of design thinking and synthesis whiz, so that they can apply it to whatever they're doing, whether it's their small business they're building or whether they're internal HR or like this, correct? Douglas Ferguson 23:39 Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, in the community even goes beyond folks that have spent any money with us like, we have a free facilitation lab every Thursday. And in fact, I rarely get to facilitate anymore, the facilitation labs, because there's just so much going on with growing the business and stuff. And I'm actually going to facilitate one tomorrow, which just like will be in distant future by the time this comes out. But I'm super excited about it. And- but yeah, every week, we invite a guest facilitator to facilitate - and just hold that space and create something unique. So it's not a presentation, it's not a webinar - but it's a time to come together as facilitators, and watch a facilitator, model a facilitator and do a thing - experiment with something, have a conversation. So we do that every week, and then we have a Slack channel that we bring everyone together as well - and so there's open discussions around whatever is on people's minds, etc. We also kind of consider social media our community as well, because a lot of the people that follow us on social media - sure, there's clients, ex-clients and things and whatnot - but a lot of the folks that are going to tap in in our content and following us and in active dialogue are facilitators that are just there - kind of on that, on that journey, fellow travelers with us. Patti Dobrowolski 24:58 Yes, yes, like 17,000 of them on LinkedIn are following you. So I checked that out, I was like, yeah, way to go! And, you know, you have a beautiful- So, if anybody wants to just read anything that is been written about you and your company - you know, there's a Forbes 2020 article that came out, it's really great, you give some fantastic tips about how to do things online, most of us know some of them - but there's some things in there that I think you can always revisit and remember about creating an engagement, because an online experience, no matter what it is, should be engaging, right? From the beginning, it should be something where you feel like, "Oh, this is gonna be so cool!" right? And as we get further and further into doing more of hybrid work like this, the online experiences should be even better. That's what I, you know, want and strive for it, like, how can we make it even better that people are calling in, or people are, right there just showing up; that people are doing some theatrical presentation, and that they get a wig in a box that arrives, you know, the day before, and, you know, script that they can use or modify, right, to do some piece of it. Because I think we want to create an environment in which people are just exploding in their brain, in a good way, with new ideas. Douglas Ferguson 26:19 You know, I absolutely love that. And I always encourage people to think about, you know, can we think about how we make stuff tangible, physical, send something to someone? Or how are we designing in fun and play into these experiences? The thing I want to make sure we underscore though, is, that can be a bit frightening for folks. As far as like, if you're a designer of this thing, and you're unfamiliar with this stuff. And it's like, oh, how do I even start? What do I even do? And, I just want to say that if you're looking at it going - Well, that sounds great. But I don't even know where to begin? What do I do? This sounds like way over the top for what I'm capable of - just at least, if you do nothing else, think about the meeting equity. Patti Dobrowolski 27:03 Yeah. Douglas Ferguson 27:03 So think about everyone that's gonna show up. If you're doing a hybrid meeting, how are you making sure that the person that dials in, or the people that dial in, had the same or equal experience as someone else? You know, if someone is blind, do they have an equal experience as someone else? You know, there's an accessibility component to the invite and to the software, but there's also an accessibility component to your design, and the activities you're doing, and how you're asking people to dance. Patti Dobrowolski 27:34 Yes. And I think there's something about understanding the culture too, and really being respectful of that. So, you know, that you enter into play, I was thinking, when I was trained as a therapist, when you would do kid therapy, you knew that you hadn't firmly entered the play accurately, if the child stopped playing when you started to play with them - then you had not entered the field that way. And that is really how you think about it with clients, right? That if they stop playing, and they're frozen in fear or frozen in disbelief or whatever, then no, they're not in - and you're going to, then you have to really push the rock up the hill, Sisyphus, and hope it doesn't fall back down again. Right? So I love that. Now, when you just tell me like, what's just a day for you? What's it look like from start to finish? What do you do in the morning? How do you keep yourself centered and balanced? You know, you have a lot of people that you work with. So how do you stay in tune? Tell me, tell me those things. Douglas Ferguson 28:36 Yeah, you know, some days are different - you know, like different days have some different things scheduled on them. But everyday starts off with exercise. I kind of chuckled - I laughed as I started to say it just because I know some people like, aren't really into fad diets and things - but I've found that intermittent fasting really works well for me, so I don't eat breakfast. I exercise very hard in the mornings, either with Pilates or boxing. I'm into hitting hidden heavy bags. So sweat, and in the morning, and then I use- Patti Dobrowolski 29:07 Sweat and starvation, sweat and starvation. That's right. (laughs) Douglas Ferguson 29:12 And then you know, usually I'm starting off with some sort - I usually have some sort of something starting off the day meeting-wise - either, you know, diving in with my team or a workshop or what have you, and spend a lot of time in MURAL. I spend a lot of time in HubSpot if I'm doing sales-related stuff. So it's either kind of thinking about the operations or thinking about executing with the client. Patti Dobrowolski 29:36 And then when does your day stop, how do you end the day? Douglas Ferguson 29:40 You know, I typically work fairly late. I do take frequent breaks and my schedule's fairly fluid. I will kind of schedule around my needs or kind of take some serendipity along the way. But, generally, my evenings are filled with - you know, generally I'll break away and start like, just reading on Reddit or kind of spending a little time on TikTok - you know, my Netflix time got replaced with TikTok time - which like, I've managed to curate some really amazing creators that I think are pretty phenomenal, and they entertain me pretty well. So- Patti Dobrowolski 30:20 Oh, you should put those in your shownotes so we can- because I don't think people know how to curate on TikTok, I don't think they understand that there are some amazing people that you can follow. And to make sure that you are getting, I don't know - because it is so much fun to see what's happening now. And to watch Makers, I that's my favorite thing is to watch Makers in that space - see what they're up to, what are they creating - and then get to see the progression of something that they're building. To me it's exciting, people in a room full of people where it's chaotic, and then it becomes very expansive - you know, these things are fantastic. I'm about to go to Make48 in Wichita, so - I can't wait to go and be in that whole Maker experience. Douglas Ferguson 31:07 That's cool. I'm glad they're still doing those. Patti Dobrowolski 31:09 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that guy. He's amazing. God, I just felt like when I met him - you know, he's from New Zealand, and he's got a big sheep farm, and outside of Kansas City, and oh, like anybody from New Zealand, I'm in - you know, it's just like the most beautiful country in the world. So,anyway, I just wanted to say thank you for coming and spend time with us. Now tell us, you know, if you have any tips to give people that are listening, who are thinking they want to pivot or make change, are there anything that you would tell them to think about or do to help them? Douglas Ferguson 31:44 Yeah, I think the main thing is just to get started, you know. Like, get started, start small, just start learning - start asking questions, get curious, be creative, challenge your assumptions - you know, I assume that you've got some stuff wrong. That's about the only assumption that's valuable, right? Is that something about your worldview? Or that how you think things are gonna unfold is incorrect, and just assume that it's wrong, you know, share your thoughts. And one of the things I see when I'm mentoring startups - one of the number one things I see really common across startups that fail - are the ones that are like, really protective of their idea, and aren't willing to share the idea, or should be vulnerable about their concerns of their pains and their struggles. If you're not being transparent about those things, you're not - no one's gonna be able to help you. And unless you're just super lucky, and somehow you just like, got it all figured out - which like, I don't know, if I've ever met anyone like that - Patti Dobrowolski 32:50 No, me neither. Douglas Ferguson 32:51 Um, so, just share it out, no one's gonna steal your idea, because there's too many ideas in the world. And then just, you know, just talk to a lot of people and just try things. Patti Dobrowolski 33:02 Yeah, and ask for help. I think that's key, what you said to- Oh, my gosh, I just have enjoyed - the time just flew by with yours, like, this is crazy. So I can't wait to till we are in a face to face experience together at some point, or I'd love to have you back on the show to talk about what else is happening. So tell us a little bit about what you have on an ongoing basis, how people can connect with you. Douglas Ferguson 33:27 You know, one thing that I was gonna share at some point - but then we're just having fun with the conversation. I didn't even think to bring it up, but - was that, you know, we created this Work Now Report, it's - you know, our vision was it would be an annual report, but as we got into it, I think we might make it biannual. So we might do a Summer and a Winter, but we just launched the Winter one back in February, so Work Now 2022. And, one of the things I think's was really fascinating, is out of all the leaders that we surveyed in this research, over 75% of these leaders reported that facilitation played a major role in conducting change within their organization. So, you know, I had a hunch that it's becoming more common in the perception of, you know, valuable skills and roles within organizations - but to be over 75% was pretty shocking. So that's for all your facilitators out there is - we're on the right path, and it's been getting more and more popular. Patti Dobrowolski 34:34 That's job security. That's job security right there, I love that. Douglas Ferguson 34:38 That's right. That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 34:38 That's fantastic. So that's coming out- Douglas Ferguson 34:40 -the Work Now Report, the first one came out in February - we're gonna be releasing more of them, so check that one out, and stay tuned for more. And then we have our weekly facilitation lab. We also have, you know, regular courses and workshops that are available, and we do an annual conference for facilitators every February, so we're going to do that again here in Austin, in February of 2023. Patti Dobrowolski 35:03 Oh, that's fantastic. I can't wait for that. I love that. And I just can't wait to see what you're up to next. I'll follow in your footsteps and get my Non Obvious Guide to Draw Your Future finished, so I get it out there to people - I love that yours is out there, and I would highly encourage people to connect with him at hello@voltagecontrol.com - it's a great way to just post a question or how can you get involved because this is a community you want to be a part of in some way, and just keep up with what they're doing because it's really exciting. I'm just so happy to have met you and connected finally, and thank you so much for your time today. It was really amazing. Douglas Ferguson 35:46 Hey, thank you for having me, and Patti, I really look forward to when we do get together in person. Patti Dobrowolski 35:51 Me too. All right, see you soon. And now, everybody, you know the drill - if you like it, please repost this to all of the friends that you have - and colleagues - so they can learn more about Voltage Control, and until next time, Up Your Creative Genius - we mean it, don't we? Patti Dobrowolski 36:11 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then, join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring - so get busy, get out and Up Your Creative Genius! And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap!

Eva Avenue is an abstract expressionist painter in the East Village, NYC. She has mainly made a living as an editor and writer at newspapers and online publications. She has been publishing an art zine since 2009 called The Nightly Noodle Monthly, produces her own art shows, and is currently working on her debut film project The Art Show Movie. She is co-writing the soundtrack with friends and working a full-time job at The Art Students League of New York. Her dream is to have a storefront studio and bar in Manhattan where she can paint big paintings and have art parties with artist talks as a cultural beacon for voices in the city. Timestamp 3:06 Growing up with artist parents in Europe 4:30 Moving to Florida, getting an arts education, and starting out as an artist 6:51 The power of visualization, enabling access, and making things happen 9:32 Inheriting her late father's unfinished paintings and documenting their journey through film 11:09 Riding out the pandemic 13:37 Lessons learnt from living the artist life 14:17 Creating visions, illustrating dreams, and transforming them into reality 18:37 Dealing with self-criticism 19:28 The dynamic, evolving painting process and its unexpected surprises 20:50 Frank O'Cain, abstract expressionism, and why they matter 22:28 Future plans, visions, and dreams 25:29 Daily routines, support networks, and handling saboteurs in life 27:06 Detours and delays in realizing a vision are necessary for growth 28:53 How seeking clarity can help avoid pitfalls and identify unseen opportunities Social Media Website: evaavenue.com Instagram: @evaavenue Facebook: Eva Avenue Studio and Spoiled Horse Racer YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/EvaAvenueStudio TikTok: @eva.avenue Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello, superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in - because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski. Okay, this is gonna be fun because we were already cracking each other up. Eva Avenue is my guest today. She's an abstract expressionist painter living in the East Village of New York City, our favorite city in the world. Well, next to Paris, I just want to say. Now listen, she made her living as an editor and writer at newspapers and online magazines. And since 2009, she's got her own nightly noodle monthly art zine magazine that she posted. It's incredible. So right now she's working for the Art Students League in New York City, and she's working on her first film - The Art Show Movie. She's getting up walking around right now. I don't know what she's doing. But she produces her own shows in any city - she can get one because she's incredible. And her big dream is to have a storefront - I love this big dream because I always walk by storefronts thinking, "Yes, that's the place I'll be", but she always wants to have a storefront, you know, that's got a bar in it, and a place where people can meet, filled with big paintings, and art shows, and interesting conversations - to be a beacon for people and voices in this city. Please welcome: Eva Avenue. Whoo! Hey, welcome to the show - so nice to have you here. Eva Avenue 02:04 So nice to be here. I had gotten up ‘cause someone was calling me during your fantastic intro. And so, yeah, there you go. Patti Dobrowolski 02:11 I love that, that's okay - because that's how we are. We're all casual in here. And so, I don't know, where are you? Are you in New York City right now? Eva Avenue 02:18 I'm in New York right now. And yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 02:20 Because every so often, like, I'll see a post from her. And then she's in St. Pete, Florida. And then she's in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And then you'll see her, you know, on Instagram doing these amazing paintings that I'm always like, I want to buy that one. I want to buy that one, and that one, and that one. And so, when you see her artwork, you're gonna feel exactly the same way, because it's really beautiful and it really expresses who we are right now. You really are a "right now" kind of person. Eva Avenue 02:49 Thank you. Yeah, I feel like that. Patti Dobrowolski 02:51 Yeah, well, and somebody said about you, you're the most "artist" artist that they know. And I believe that I feel that way too. So tell us a little bit about yourself, so people can get to know you. Where'd you grow up, and how did you become an artist? Or how did that evolve? Eva Avenue 03:06 Right? So my proclivity to be an artist kind of came about naturally because I lived many different beautiful places. And both my parents were painters growing up, and so it was just not even a hard thing to slip into doing. Not even on purpose. So I was born in Amsterdam, in an attic, my mom was going to painting school there, my dad had sawed all the legs off the furniture to make this like Amsterdam attic child friendly...and so on the ground it was very Zen. It was very painter-studio and- Patti Dobrowolski 03:38 -kind of the experience. Yeah, I love that. I like that. Eva Avenue 03:44 And so then...right, we went to Portugal. I was like a year and a half so we moved there where my father was from and, right, so just a lot of painting, a lot of - again that sort of bohemian lifestyle - and, you know, no reason for it, that's just that's just what they did. You know, it wasn't explained to me, "Eva, you know, art is important", or you know, this is what we're doing, it's just what was there. And so by the time we left, my mom left and we came to Florida. I really had this culture shock with these perfectly manicured lawns, I had to wear clothes outside, it was like really bizarre. So, right. I don't know, I felt, yeah, it was a little jarring, and I don't want to say like I threw myself into some sort of creative thing, but I do- Patti Dobrowolski 03:46 - You probably were like, Oh my God, where am I? Who am I? How to I find myself? How do I calm myself down? Eva Avenue 04:30 - And so I remember, I might just, but for some reason, my first thought was like, "Can you get me piano lessons?" I asked. My mom was like, I want to take piano. I remember someone mentioning, on our way, like leaving Portugal, I was playing some sort of, you know, these metal keys and someone said: "She's really good," and I thought, "I am really good." (laughs) Like yeah, this sounds like a succession of correct notes. And I thought that was fun and so, right. So I, yeah. So living in Florida, taking piano lessons, you know, just writing poetry, drawing - you know, that was sort of what I did well at and in school. And, you know, there was, you know, not some sort of family thing where, you know, it was weird to want to be an artist, even though there's- Patti Dobrowolski 05:03 No, because your parents were artists, I don't think I knew that about you. That's fantastic. Eva Avenue 05:21 Yeah! Patti Dobrowolski 05:22 So you were allowed to express yourself in any way you wanted to. Eva Avenue 05:26 I was, right. And so I just kept doing that. And then I enrolled to an Art High School, and I got more training. And so the - you know, the underbelly of that is being financially illiterate, and not really having a sense of how certain real world processes work. Yes. So, you know, I ended up with student debt, going to school, you know, I got a full ride to MICA - the Maryland Institute College of Art, it was my first choice, but they didn't have a full scholarship. So I went to New Mexico, and my mom really wanted me to go to school, you know - on my own, I might have just painted and seen what could happen that way and ended up in the city like that. But you know what - it worked out. I learned how to write well, and I did make a living off of what I went to college for, which was, you know, editing and writing and sort of arts journalism, because I thought: you know, what, if you're gonna make it on your own, you have to know how to write, you have to know- Patti Dobrowolski 05:52 Yeah. Eva Avenue 05:53 -talk to people, and you know, it's just like, a good skill to have. So yeah, I kind of was just gathering all these things and taking um, you know, music composition, and African dance, and ballet, and French and like, comedy writing, and I just had a really great time in college. So, yeah, I kind of just by miracle of sheer will have been able to sustain the life I've been living my whole life with, you know, pockets of hardship, or a little something, it feels like a detour. But in the end, you realize it wasn't- Patti Dobrowolski 06:49 Yes, yes. Eva Avenue 06:51 Right. And so but a big part of what I've done is visualization. And I have always understood - before I met you - that there was this kind of, yeah, there was like a currency beyond economics, that could be like, you know, brought up- Patti Dobrowolski 07:05 Access. Eva Avenue 07:06 Yeah, there's something else you can access and activate, even if you don't have money. And sometimes you- and I think the people that discover this are the people that have to find another way to make that thing happen, right? Patti Dobrowolski 07:15 That's right, that's right. Eva Avenue 07:16 You have to discover like, you know, what's the, you know, where's the book of spells, and everyone's looking for their own book of spells? And so Patti, you're a big- Right, you're a big, yeah, spell chapter when I found you. It was, it was pretty great. Anyway, so here I am on your podcast. This is so- Patti Dobrowolski 07:16 I love it. Well, one of the things that I wonder about- so, when you grew up with a couple of parents who are painters, you know, were they critical about your painting at all? Did they give you feedback about it? Did they let you just express yourself? Or how did they encourage you, or not? I'm curious, like, I don't know, if my parents were painters, or illustrators, if I would have ever drawn, you know, I might have been worried about how the picture looked. Eva Avenue 07:59 So my mom would give tips when I asked, or if she felt moved to point out, you know, how to do a simple trick to achieve a visual effect, but she did not really sit me down and like give me art lessons. I always kind of had them - the supplies were there and she would like, you know, she would drag me into her, you know, anatomy class for the portrait sections. And I would say, I was just always immersed in it, I'd go to these art shows. And so, yeah, usually if I asked, but I think she was just happy I was doing it. So she wasn't trying to crowd me. And then my dad was just, you know, one of those critical, you know, hard to please. You know, it's why she left - I went back again in Portugal in 18 to see him again, I remember his friends coming to visit, and I could see him being visibly annoyed when they would joke that I was better than him - but I don't know how much. I was like I really wanted to do - He like set up this canvas. This was in the south of Portugal. And he was like - in Portuguese, he didn't speak English - he's like, show me, you know, show me what you can do. So I made this beautiful painting. And I made it with some green in there, because I remember he would say that like, green's a hard color to paint - but it was mostly blue and yellow. I remember chopping up the green to blue and yellow to its pure states because those two make green and so, yeah, it was like this beach in this desert. And these people like carrying these gourds and - so but I just remember it annoying him that I was better. Patti Dobrowolski 09:30 - that you were better. Yeah, that you were better. Eva Avenue 09:32 But not necessarily better. But because he made really beautiful work that tourists love, like, he's like the moon on the water and the thing, but right, maybe that was more absurd. Maybe he wasn't so...imaginative. Maybe they were out of his imagination, I don't know. But the funny thing is, so this art show movie I'm making - which is in lieu of a solo abstract show I was going to have but COVID shut it down - so, I'm making this movie instead, and my sister in Portugal just sent four paintings over that my dad had made - you know, he died in 2006. And, they're for me to finish, they're like, unfinished. Patti Dobrowolski 10:02 Wow. Eva Avenue 10:03 It's all, it's kind of beautiful. And so I, I still haven't picked them up because A) it's intense for me and B) I want to film going over there and getting them. Patti Dobrowolski 10:12 Yeah, as part of this movie. Eva Avenue 10:13 Yeah. And then the movie will culminate in an actual physical art show. And so I would like to have those paintings in there that my dad did, that I finished - one of them. I don't think I will, I think I'll just leave it as it is - but yeah, it's- Patti Dobrowolski 10:24 Wow, that is so great. So when we met, and then COVID happened - or maybe we met during COVID, I can't remember - but, what I do know is that you started to make this movie, The Art Show Movie. And I can't wait for that. Because the way that your brain works is just incredible. I mean, you are always piecing together new ideas, and they're just exploding. And so, for you to have that vision of what it will be, and then also, you're really a big, ginormous risk taker. I think, as an artist, I mean, you'll just move to a city and then you're just going to do it. you're going to figure out how it's going to go. And so tell me, you were recently in Albuquerque, what were you doing there? Eva Avenue 11:09 I was riding out the pandemic and painting for the show I had gotten. So I, initially when I got this show - and it was right before the pandemic it was finalized, and around the time I met you, although I had known your work beforehand. So yeah, I wanted to paint anyway. The pandemic hit, my work went remote. And suddenly I could go out west, where I used to live and work on these large paintings because it's hard to paint and a little like- Patti Dobrowolski 11:34 Yeah, in a studio apartment or one bedroom apartment, right? Eva Avenue 11:38 Which, which I'm back in the city, but whatever. But I have so much space- Patti Dobrowolski 11:42 When you get that big storefront space, right? Spread out, and the big paintings - I can't wait. Eva Avenue 11:49 Yeah, that's the dream, which is you know, back in the day, you see this beautiful pictures of these abstract expressionists in the 40s and 50s here in New York, and they had all these, these big warehouse spaces, because they're- Patti Dobrowolski 11:57 Even in the 70s. I mean, even if you look at those, you know, you can see this space in that movie. And I'm thinking, no, yeah, that's- Eva Avenue 12:06 - It's not like that scrappy city as much anymore. You really have to have money to buy it. And so thank God, I married someone with good credit. So I couldn't- I was thinking because before last time I moved here, I even had a snake in my room. And it was just like, like, Man, this is a lot. So but yeah, that's what I found your videos when I was looking- Patti Dobrowolski 12:21 Yeah, well, when you went to New Mexico, and then you just painted for the show itself, and created all the work. How many paintings did you do for the show? Eva Avenue 12:33 I have, like, I guess about 10. And I'm currently working on more because the longer this movie is taking, the higher my standards are, and the bigger my dreams for how this looks. So- Patti Dobrowolski 12:48 - That's okay. I was just asking you about how many paintings, but I was curious about how many paintings are in a typical show, like the one you did in New Mexico? How many were in that show? Eva Avenue 12:59 So I've had shows in New Mexico, there is not a show that I didn't- Patti Dobrowolski 13:02 Okay, so you went there to create the movie. Ah, I get it, I get it. Eva Avenue 13:06 I brought them with me to New York - I still have the work, I'm still working on the show. And so I mean, I've sent them like a large number of like, smaller abstract ones. And I'm now working on it. It's not abstract, but I meant to make it abstract. Now, I accidentally have this portrait of Fran Lebowitz and Dr. Dre because they're both ruthless and the baby's called Ruthless. Patti Dobrowolski 13:24 Fantastic. I love that. Yeah. I love that now. And then, what, how do you make money? Do you sell your artwork? Can you do it specifically with that now? Or how do you make a living as an artist really? What have you learned? Eva Avenue 13:37 I - Yeah, I've learned that it is such hard work. It's just really hard work unless you get lucky but, I mean, it's either hard work and then you know, nothing - or it's hard work and then you get lucky. So, we're gonna slow climb - you know, there's many ways to go about it, but yeah, I do work jobs. It's so, right now the financials of what I do is more hobby status because I get - I'd make sporadic sales because I'm not so concentrated on it. But, I do work at the Art Students League of New York, which is, like, if I can't be at the Yale School of Painting - Patti Dobrowolski 14:12 I was gonna say like, that is like the most incredible place to be, right? Eva Avenue 14:17 So basically every artist from New York and from outside of New York who had to use a, you know, as a way to study in the States went through there. Everyone, except Andy Warhol - but his nephew did go there. You know, we got Paula, we got Georgia O'Keeffe. I mean, just everyone went through there. And so to be in those walls, to be there, you know - with access to the teachers, being able to take classes there, just meeting all these New Yorkers and just being able to talk with my artistically minded coworkers. It's, I feel like I'm in a nucleus, like a little nucleus, like I just knew everybody. And so, right in there's people I want to interview for the show and I'm thinking like, how can I, you know, use the League for part of this movie? So yeah, the paintings are getting bigger, the dreams getting bigger. You know, I'm working on a soundtrack for it. And it's, you know, so much visualization went into this, I can't even - I thought I'd be like, you know, talking about sort of all these little points, but then, you know, I just want to tell you what happened. And it's like getting into how I even brought all this stuff about. But, I mean, everything has been a drawing. Like, I made a vision board about moving to Manhattan, which is just so hard. It was so expensive, and it's just the, but the COVID pricing made it happen. And so- Patti Dobrowolski 15:24 So you were able to- so you drew it in a picture. Eva Avenue 15:27 Yeah, all the cool stuff I make happen, I drew in a picture, visualized it, or I made a collage for it. And yes, just either - and either like how you say, you know, your brain guesses its way to an outcome, it'll either be like that, or the picture will solidify the thing in my mind so I don't give up on it. Like when I get this art show, and it was in Ireland and I was coming up with a lot of like, obstacles, but it was that drawing I made that I learned from you, that just counts like, I have like, no, I'm not gonna let that drawing down. I'm not gonna let that vision down. And it just works so well. Patti Dobrowolski 15:58 Yeah, well, I think as an artist, you know, you already understand the power of the visual, and that the visual just unfolds for you, and the painting evolves. And so, I don't know what your process as an artist is. And so, maybe you can speak to that. But what I do know is that, when you have that picture, you said it solidified it, and it made it so that you wanted it to happen. And those things - that's part of that magical energy you were talking about earlier. And your parents did it, right? And your mom moved from Portugal to the US, right? To Florida and did that. And part of that is, you know, trust and will and grit, and going forward with the vision of you as an artist, right? Eva Avenue 16:45 That's right. And so, yup, the fact that we're bringing this up, I'm thinking about something I wanted to tell you I read in Jensen's History of Art. It's this like, tome of just the world's history of art, starting with cave paintings. And I read something and I immediately thought of you because it talks about the Lascaux cave paintings. So they're hidden away, they're not accessible by some casual intruder at the mouth of the cave, but they are put back because of the the ritual involved in the power. And so they would make these realistic, you know, big game animals as a part of a magic ritual to ensure a successful hunt. Now, so when the climate started to warm up a bit, and they start to head north, the animals start to head north, they shift from like, ensuring a killing of a hunt to literally drawing these paintings, these animals in the cave, and trying to get as realistic as possible, because they think they're now bringing them like into existence. They are making more animals, they're not drawing a distinction between an image and reality. To them, it's kind of the same. And I'm like, that's literally what Patti was talking about. And it's just like this. It's just amazing to see this thread from the dawn of, of humanity, like, and it's, you know, you can repackage it, but it's kind of the same approach. Patti Dobrowolski 16:47 Yeah, it is. Well, and I think people don't- they underestimate the power of drawing something, you know, and the fact that it's part of your DNA. It's your heritage, that you were some time - and you know, if you believe in, you know, evolution, you evolved from that. So somewhere in your cellular structure is a portion of you that can draw, if you can get the critic out of the way, right, right, then it's much more powerful. How did you learn to get your critic out of the way? What do you do when you start to feel critical about what you're doing? Eva Avenue 18:37 I remember in high school feeling very insecure and weird and self-conscious. And then I remember having this sort of breakthrough moment where I realized everyone felt that way. Like, people are too busy thinking about themselves and their shortcomings to maybe judge me. And if they aren't, then I don't know. Maybe they're a little bit like, oh, snaky, and I don't need them around. (laughs) So, I don't know, from there, I kind of just relaxed and you know, I remember appreciating when other people would mess up in front of the public eye, because I remember not judging them. I just remember feeling more relaxed within myself. And so I thought, you know, what, if you're messing up, like, just, that's fine. And so yeah, I just really haven't worried about how I look too much in public with uh- Patti Dobrowolski 19:23 Well, well, and also with your art, you know, that's part of it. Is that you? Eva Avenue 19:27 It's a big part. Patti Dobrowolski 19:28 Yeah, you evolve. Do you evolve within the painting itself, the process within itself? Or do you have a set idea of what you're going to paint and you sketch it out with a pencil? And then you go from there, but then does it evolve? If that's the case, how does it - how do you approach it? Eva Avenue 19:44 It evolves even if you have it sketched out. So, much like the drawings I do for visualization, and I started keep coming back to it, but that is what you're about. And so yeah, I've noticed that like with visualization, drawings, or posters, it doesn't always come out exactly how you put it, whether it's like one specific picture, like many things like- so there's always this sort of margin of, you know, the unexpected outcome of what your dream ends up looking like. There's the unexpected outcome of what the painting ends up looking like, and it's always kind of a surprise. And it's always a little, yeah, it's, it's kind of fun. Because I mean, if you are just trying to recreate what you see, and you succeed at that, then that's fine. And that's great. And there's a market for it. But I just feel like it's a little bit more exciting. It's a little bit more rock and roll to just sort of like- Patti Dobrowolski 20:33 - let it evolve and let it be what it is, I think. And then do you have, you know, other painters? I know you do probably at the Art League, but do you have any other painters in your life or other artists that really influence you and impact you? Who are your role models in a way? Eva Avenue 20:50 My role models are... Patti Dobrowolski 20:54 Or who do you / are you interested in right now that you think, oh, that is so cool, what they're doing - like that? Eva Avenue 21:01 Frank O'Cain - who I'm taking a class from right now - comes from this lineage that started the school of abstract expressionism in New York, and like, and the lineage goes back to Europe. So when you're somewhere in the country, and you think you're making an abstract painting, and you're thinking that you're just expressing a thing, you might not realize there's this very solid, like, coming about and process of thinking that made abstract expressionism possible. I mean, it's such a thing. And it's like a pearl of an oyster of a lot of discussion, a lot of turf wars. And the CIA, actually, at one point, was helping fund these art shows by the Abstract Expressionists because it seemed like an anti-Russian thing to invest in - because it was about, like, free thought. And it was like- Patti Dobrowolski 21:49 Oh, wow, doesn't that sound just so like the CIA? That is so crazy, wow! Eva Avenue 21:55 It is. And so you think it's these shapes on a canvas - and you just learned it's so much more. I mean, it's a national identity that, yeah, I mean, it's a lot. So yeah, I'm currently getting more kind of serious when it comes to abstract work that is more like committing to a form of committing something as solid beyond just expressing something that I think is a good composition, which is part of it. But yeah, so I'm really nerding out on the, yeah, growing as an abstract artist- Patti Dobrowolski 22:22 No, I like that, actually. It's interesting. I think that because if you're not an artist, you don't understand sometimes where you see people do a painting, and you think, hmm where they get that? Or where they get that idea, or how did they, especially an abstract expressionist painter, is a very unique stream of painting, right? It's not a realism. It's just such a free form, in and of itself. And so even if it has people in it, and things in it, it really is the composition is about that. And so - that freedom, and I could see why the CIA would want to study that and follow that. But it seems like a non sequitur to me, you know, like, that's not the right word, but it just doesn't seem to match up. Eva Avenue 22:24 It's surprising, yeah, information. Patti Dobrowolski 22:28 Yeah. And when you when you think about yourself, and what you want to do, like when you envision the future, what's on your future map now? Where do you see yourself? Is part of it the storefront studio, where you got these big paintings and stuff like that, but what else? Eva Avenue 23:26 Yeah. Well, so I see myself in like a high collaborative editorial place where people come to me for creative collaboration - if they want a certain, like, vibe on a photo shoot. I do like to get out and do these, like extracurricular sort of projects, which I do. Patti Dobrowolski 23:46 -You do all these weird things, yes you do. Eva Avenue 23:48 - But then yeah, I do want to have like a - Patti Dobrowolski 23:50 Give an example of one when you say that, so people know what extracurricular activities, what would that be? Like you standing in front, interviewing people - what is it? Eva Avenue 24:00 I would love to play Joan Mitchell - the abstract painter, in Amy Sherman-Palladino's upcoming project - she's supposedly doing you know, she did Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. She's turning Ninth Street women about these abstract expressionists, the women there into this film and I'm like, how cool would that be, right? Or how cool it'd be if Wes Anderson called me up and was like, you know, we want to give this like, the Eva vibe on like, the backdrops - like can you help with the backdrops or like, to be in just one of his films is like an artist character. Like, I feel like I, yes, just- Patti Dobrowolski 24:34 Yes, yes, you definitely could do that. What I love about this - and so if anybody out there knows this person, I want you to connect her to them - because this is how the universe works. You just put it out there. So we're going to just see if we can manifest that because, you know, what's fascinating to me about what you do and who you are, is - you're always wacky, you're just doing some wild things. Even when you were coming through Denver, we didn't know each other at all. She shows up in these hot pants in my house, I've got these contractors, they're like, just totally scoping her. They can't like, take their eyes off of her. I'm like, get back to work. And we're just having this chat. And it's fantastic. You know, I mean, you really are an artist artist. You really are. And so I'm curious, when you - what's your day look like, from start to finish? What's it look like, a typical day? Eva Avenue 25:29 Well, when I wake up, I check on Zelenskyy. Is he still alive? How's he doing? I make coffee. I take the train to work. I'm there all day, I come home, where I just either, you know, work on one of my projects, or, you know, pass out or have dinner with my husband, who I also met through drawings that I did using your method. So good. And then- Patti Dobrowolski 25:56 Well, when he's such an - he's an artist himself, so you know, I mean, he's just an incredible person. Eva Avenue 26:02 Yeah, no, yeah. I mean, if - I'd heard, you know, to be successful, you need to have a supportive partner. Like, that's one of the things for success. And I was like, well, I really don't have that ever. What I really have are saboteurs of my life, who come and suck me dry and then are so rude. (laughs) Like, it's just like, yeah, I need to like really solidify my foundation so I can operate on a higher kind of plane where I'm not constantly having to like pick myself up again, which was, you know, sort of another like underbelly- Patti Dobrowolski 26:32 Well, and you drew a picture with him in it. That was how we met - is that you watched that TED video, you drew a picture of your husband, then somehow you contacted me to tell me that what you had drawn showed up in your real life. Your husband. Eva Avenue 26:47 Yes. Patti Dobrowolski 26:47 You married him. And it hadn't been that long that you were married to him that you contacted me. Eva Avenue 26:52 Yeah, yeah, it took a year. And I remember you saying in the TED Talk, like, "Oh it'll take about a year", and it took a year. And I was just like, that is a genius. What is happening? So anyway, yeah. So- Patti Dobrowolski 27:02 it just lodged in there. And then you took it as truth, that's all. Eva Avenue 27:06 Yeah. So since then, some things will take less than a year, some things will take more for you. Like I did this drawing like two years ago to like, clear my student loans. It's now been two years, but some take longer. So I'm still going through that. But yeah, so then the weekends, that's when I like, have time to work on my projects. So I'm either, yeah, painting or reading or, you know, playing guitar, my little honeycomb comb...tome...HoneyTone amp - and it's very cute, I love it. Yeah, but this full time job is new. So usually, when I would have that job, where I was working from, like remotely doing social media for coffee, I could just - I was traveling, I was staying with friends. I was like, creating artist residences for me. And so this is, yeah, I love the job. I love where I'm at. And I hope to eventually go back to a place where I do have more time. Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 27:53 And what's true is that, you know, you said earlier, you said, you know, sometimes you move forward in this trajectory of getting your vision, and then sometimes you kind of have a detour. And to me, this is like the change Genie detour card, right? That in the weather that you might encounter in your life, you got a detour. However, this was an essential detour for you as an artist. And so I'm fascinated by that, because that tells me you're on the right track to stepping into even more into your greatness, and being seen and known for the beautiful work that you do. Because, honestly, people, it's beautiful. You know, there are painters, and she's just incredible - so, you have to check out her work. Now, tell me, Eva, if you were going to give advice to anybody about how they could pivot, how they get through, you know, and the highs and lows of what their experience is, what would you say? What are your tips? Eva Avenue 28:53 I'd say, do whatever you can to get really clear. That's a great basis, like and I mean, like, if you just noticed that maybe you are really stuck on something or it just, you know, physically or mentally or emotionally, I think it's really good to be clear, because then you do have the space to, yeah, go forward on these pivots. But when you're clear, you also can pay more attention to hunches. You know, you can recognize a wave, you know, you're like a surfer, you want you want to hop a wave, right? So if you're too scared, if you're sitting on the beach, like oh my god, I don't, like I can't tell the wave like, so you got to recognize these waves. And like, so just a quick example - I really wanted to work remotely. That was so important to me. I mean, that's really a dream, right? Patti Dobrowolski 29:39 Yeah. Eva Avenue 29:40 And I did not have a remote job. And I just got this like idea in my head, I don't know why, I just thought - there's this coffee shop called Janeiro's in St. Pete, and she wasn't doing very well. And I was like, I'm just gonna offer to do a mural, a very, very big mural. And i'm not gonna ask for money and I'm just gonna do it, and it was completely irrational. Why would I, I don't know, but I offered it, she gave it to me. One year later, you know, after I made that drawing, okay, so I did that like half year later, I moved to New York, I do that drawing that you had done, that the, my husband- Patti Dobrowolski 30:09 -Draw your Future with your husband, yeah- Eva Avenue 30:11 Right. And so, like a year, and then I eventually moved back to St. Pete to make this album. And it was that painting I had done of the coffee farmers in this coffee shop, where an interview I had - someone had set up for me, like just called me out of the blue like, hey, like they need this social media person. And so I met her like down the road from where that mural was. And at the end, I said, Hey, I want to show you something. And she goes in, and she sees this depiction of literally - literally, what is the core brand message of the company, right? Like, like Fairtrade, like pro-farmer, and I have these farmers, it's very uplifting, and she was like, what - I mean, that's a pretty big sign like, hire this girl, right? So you just have to like, you have to- Patti Dobrowolski 30:51 Follow your hunch, yeah. Eva Avenue 30:52 You have to follow it, you have to do something to start driving it forward. So yeah, you have to- Patti Dobrowolski 30:58 That's interesting - drive it forward to move it. Eva Avenue 31:01 Yeah, you have to drive the thing forward. So even if it's not landing an interview, if it's just like, yeah, putting a picture up, or you know, just getting an outfit that you would wear in this sort of situation - just doing something to start to shift your life toward that. And you have to, you know, kind of keep it like a big vision, because it's not going to happen immediately all the time. But, you know, sometimes you feel like you might be deserving of that because you see social media, and everyone's got so easy on social media, why can't you have it too easy too? But it's not. It's not. Patti Dobrowolski 31:28 Yeah, no, I love that. It's really not true. I think that, you know, look at how old I am, it's still not true. Sometimes it's not true, you really have to work - you have to. And we talked just briefly about grit, how grit is essential to you moving yourself forward. So you have a big picture vision of where you want to go, and then you pay attention to your hunches about what you should do, and then you do that. And then later, you see: maybe a year later, you see the link between the two things and what has happened. And you know, I think everybody - I don't know about you, but I think everybody's cycle of manifestation is very different. But, you can accelerate things, and you can inspire yourself by having that picture - and that is the whole point of it. There's no other reason to be doing it, except that it fills you with dopamine, you know, it makes you feel high, like you're capable and confident - you're suddenly you know, super person, you "There you go! You're gonna be able to do it", and you get your cape on, and then you go out and you do these weird things - and they all link up at the end. And so, you know, I think when I think about you, and just, you're growing up now that I know that and now you're at the Art League, you know, and that you're constantly learning and trying to do different things and stretch yourself. These two are other ways that tips of how you can be bigger in the world. Because it's not about you getting to the end result, I think people think, you know, it's all about making it, whatever making it looks like and trust me, every moment is making it. And I know that from watching you, because every moment you appreciate whatever it is - and you post that appreciation, so we can see it. And it's not always pretty, it's not always perfect - but it is appreciating the moment. And so, thank you for that. Eva Avenue 33:32 Thank you for that. That's, I guess I do do that - I feel so connected. Yeah. (laughs) Patti Dobrowolski 33:38 Well, that's fantastic. Well, I can't wait to have you back. Eva Avenue 33:41 I can't wait to come back! Patti Dobrowolski 33:42 After we've learned - whatever the, I mean, like in a year, I want you to come back on this very day in a year so that we could see what happened from here and to see whether you get in that movie or not - I don't care. I think you should! Eva Avenue 33:55 Yes! Patti Dobrowolski 33:56 I'm saying it's gonna happen. Eva Avenue 33:57 Whoo! Then I pay off my student loans, let's see what happens, in what year. Patti Dobrowolski 34:01 That's right. Will you be in that movie? Will they ask you to do the backdrops? Who cares? Will you be an artist? In that, that set of that - that would be fantastic. And will your movie be complete? I'm sure it will. So, I love you so much, and thank you for spending time with everybody. Oh gosh, thanks for being- Eva Avenue 34:17 I love you too, so much. Thank you for having me on this podcast. It's always good to see you and I'm happy that I could share my story with everyone. Yeah, Patti Dobrowolski 34:24 Me too. Thanks again. Alright everybody, you know the drill - you definitely want to connect with Eva Avenue. You want to follow her, you want to see her beautiful paintings and then you want to buy one, and then you want to go on with your day and take some of her tips and apply them. And then, you know, forward this to your friends if you liked the podcast, and send us a note just to tell us what you thought was incredible about this experience. So, I can't wait to see you again! And so until next time, Up Your Creative Genius and I mean it - I mean it. Patti Dobrowolski 35:00 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring - so get busy! Get out, and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap!

Dan Sheridan is President and COO of Brooks Running. He started his career 23 years ago as a National sales rep. He's a graduate of University of Washington's Foster School of Business. Brooks Running makes men's and women's high-performance running shoes, apparel, and accessories that meet the needs of runners of all levels. Entirely focused on the run, Brooks is dedicated to inspiring people to run and be active. Brooks creates innovative equipment that keeps you running longer, farther and faster—and with more enjoyment of the run. Timestamp 3:03 Growing up in a leader-rich environment 5:50 Running the perfect business strategy 8:11 Setting the pace with customer centricity and communicating with clarity 10:03 Fumbling a project – and getting back on track 11:44 Navigating through problems in a pandemic 12:43 Acting like Brooks, whether in prosperity or crisis 16:55 Leading the pack with humility and kindness 20:19 Moving into the future with optimism 23:47 Getting everyone to Run Happy – managing one's fears and motivations, step by step 28:05 The essentials of personal leadership development 30:13 Dan's current reading list  Follow Dan Sheridan on Linkedin  https://www.linkedin.com/in/dan-sheridan-2a04316  Brooks Running https://www.brooksrunning.com/  Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/  Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/  Up Your Creative Genius - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars! Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast - where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski. Oh my gosh, I have one of my favorite leaders here today. I'm just saying that I have had the opportunity to work with this person multiple times. I absolutely love him, and you will too. So let's welcome the recently crowned President and COO of Brooks Running - Dan Sheridan. Dan Sheridan 01:04 Every time I see you, I just smile. Every time I see your name, every time I see you on a screen, I just smile. I mean, the energy is insane. Patti Dobrowolski 01:15 Oh, that's fantastic. Well, that is back at you because - So listen, I need to tell them a little bit about you so they don't have to go in the show notes to read your bio - I'm going to give my down and dirty of it. Listen, people. He joined Brooks Running in 1998 - 23 years ago. And he really started as a tech rep - which is a junior role there - and worked his way up. And now he oversees, you know, the business and the brand. He was once the brand guru at Brooks, and he's helped to build that business and brand over those years. Now he's overseeing the wholesale business, the distribution partnerships, he connects with runners to build the E-commerce business and oversees the regional marketing programs. And let me just say that they grew 26%, didn't you? It was like recently or is probably higher than that now. But he was given, in 2009 - which was way back in the Wayback Machine - 40 under 40 Sports Good Award. I mean, that's kind of a big deal. He went to the University of Washington, and he got a certification from Washington Foster School of Business. So yes, Dan Sheridan's here, woo! Dan's in the house. Dan Sheridan 02:30 I love it! Patti, you can be my promoter, whenever you want. I mean, the language that you use, I just - I gotta bottle it and take it with me. Patti Dobrowolski 02:39 That's right. Now, you know, Dan, you are honestly one of the favorite leaders of mine. When I ever get to be in a room with you, I'm like, yes, Dan's gonna be there. So I want you to tell people, how did you get started? Like, tell us your story? I think you're from Washington State, aren't you? Yes. Tell us the whole thing, starting from the beginning, would you? Dan Sheridan 03:03 Let me first say that I am humble enough to know that you've been in front of many, many leaders. So I don't take that comment lightly at all. And I am a student of leadership - I'm fascinated by leadership, I think I always have been. Back to my childhood, my dad and my mom were fantastic leaders. They were teachers and led community work and students. And so, I was always under this kind of group of people that were just great examples for me. Growing up, I was a team sport kid. So I played basketball and baseball. I played a little football, I played soccer, swimming, the whole thing. I was in team sports and I tell people that that was literally my business school. That's how I formed my leadership skills. Yeah, I was captains of teams and had to work with impossible people and - Patti Dobrowolski 04:00 Welcome to the world of impossible people. That should be a book. Dan Sheridan 04:05 Right? Well, there you go. So my journey is, I think, at times it's unique. It's probably really strange to some people that I've been with a company for as long as I am- Patti Dobrowolski 04:17 23 years. 23 years - look me in the eye and say, “I've been here 23 years.” Dan Sheridan 04:24 I've been here 23 years. Patti Dobrowolski 04:25 I know. Dan Sheridan 04:26 You know, I'm waiting for somebody to tap me on the shoulder and say, "Hey, man, the gig's up?" Patti Dobrowolski 04:31 I don't think so. I don't think so. Dan Sheridan 04:33 Yeah. So it's awesome. You know, I'm such a fortunate person in so many ways. I think on the professional side, I started with a company that was tiny, we had 56 people. When I started, we shrunk actually to like, 35. We had a layoff in my first couple years, and now we're close to 1200 globally. We've got about 550 in Seattle here and so I'm fortunate, right? I got with a great company with a great leader in Jim Weber. And I made mistakes. And nobody either knew about them or they weren't begging people to kick me out. So I feel just incredibly fortunate and always have been that my journey was with one company that was growing the whole time. Patti Dobrowolski 05:18 Yeah. And, you know, I mean, it took a dip. And so I think the whole running industry took a dip. But there was a point where I was like, Oh, I hope they continue through this, you know, and then oh, I hope their shoes will start to look cooler. Dan Sheridan 05:36 I mean, we like to call them inflection points, Patti, we don't know. Yeah, we call them- Patti Dobrowolski 05:41 Yes, we do. On the S curve, that's an inflection point, maybe go down, then you go up, and you have to leap off into something else or you become irrelevant. Dan Sheridan 05:50 That's right. I think every business does this, right, where you have these moments where there's a gut check on your strategy. Yeah. On the addressable market that you're going after? Yep. On, you know, the talent that you have? And are you developing talent within? Are you adding talent to stay relevant? And Brooks has had that over its journey. I mean, we've had, I don't know, call it four or five owners over the years. And we've been fortunate enough, in the last, call it 15 years, to have Berkshire Hathaway as our parent company - which couldn't be anything better for us. Patti Dobrowolski 06:24 No, no, no doubt. No doubt, yup. Dan Sheridan 06:27 So we go through these moments where it is a gut check on strategy. And here's the beauty of our strategy. It's pretty simple, you know, and Brooks has a simple strategy. We're focused on runners. We're focused on the run, we're focused on getting people moving, we're focused on what running means to people's lives. And if we can deliver products and programs and services, you keep them running farther, faster, longer. We're winning. And yeah, pretty simple. Patti Dobrowolski 06:52 Yeah, it is. You know, secretly, I've been designing a shoe to present to you guys, when I see you, I'm like, I have to design some shoes that are cool. And so I've been just mocking up these shoes I got behind the scenes. I'm like, I have any, I want to talk to the guys in creative again, you know, because I always get to see them. And they're fantastic. And I think that there's a few things I could add to that little chemistry of that. So of course, that's my secret dream. Dan Sheridan 07:25 You've been on our journey. You've had many checkpoints with us that have helped us create our vision through your process, and it's why you and I connected - and the value that you've created with us is playing out today. You helped us imagine the future for Brooks, and here we go. Patti Dobrowolski 07:43 You will- I think to- you have Imagineers there. That's what's true. The people that work there really are Imagineers, you know, including Jim, but I think in your stream, you know, you have really galvanized the sales community. I mean, the team is just unstoppable. And so, say something about what you had to do to get them motivated to go, to get going. Dan Sheridan 08:11 Yeah, it's not about me. I mean, when I showed up here in 1998, this company had a customer focus that was incredible. And it was just part of the culture at Brooks. And so I got trained by people that were so intensely focused on our customer base, whether it was our customer service team, our marketing team, our sales team. And so there was no other thing to do, but focus on the customer. And what we've been able to do is keep talent here. You know, I've got colleagues that I've worked with for 20 plus years. Patti Dobrowolski 08:43 Wow, that's fantastic. That's unheard of! Dan Sheridan 08:47 Yeah! Especially in our industry, right? I think, you know, this is a very competitive industry in terms of acquiring talent and developing talent. So it's customer focused, and we've been able to deliver on customer focus, specifically and run with our specialty run community around the world. And then we execute. You know, we used to have a sheet of paper as a one pager that just simply answered the question: why Brooks? And we would go through and list all the different programs that we had. But at the very bottom, we would say, we're going to do what we tell you we're going to do. And every day our sales team acts that way. If we can't do something, we're going to tell them, we're going to be honest, we're not going to sugarcoat it. And I think that creates an execution that's clear to people. But ultimately, it's customer focus. Patti Dobrowolski 09:35 Yeah. So when we were working together, you were moving this supply chain, right? I mean, you were moving manufacturing to the US. Say a little bit about what that did or how that process went, because we didn't talk about it afterwards, and I'm curious - like when you take something as much production as you were doing, what did you end up doing and how did it go? Dan Sheridan 09:57 So point of clarity, not our manufacturing but our distribution. Patti Dobrowolski 10:01 Distribution, your DC. Dan Sheridan 10:03 Yep, we moved our distribution from the West Coast here in Seattle, to the middle of the country for a lot of reasons: One, we need to be closer to our customer base: just speed of delivery, cost, all those things. And you know, the short story- Patti Dobrowolski 10:16 Price too, because come on, I mean, Washington State, you got to move to the Midwest. Dan Sheridan 10:21 That's right. You know, short story is: we fumbled. We fumbled the football on many different yard lines on this project. And we literally had a design that didn't match our business model. And it took us three months to unlock the design to match the business model. And what it did is it created, you know, and reinforced a humility that we all needed in a checkpoint along our journey to say: Okay, how did we make this mistake? What were the things that we took for granted that we shouldn't have? What was the expertise we needed in our teams that we didn't have going on? Right? Patti Dobrowolski 10:59 And then you hired somebody, brought them in to help. Right? Dan Sheridan 11:03 We hired Christophe Mahaut in operations, we hired a whole new team and our distribution center, and we started to build depth in our operations. One, because we're growing like crazy; but two, we learned along the way that, you know, you can't muscle your way through some things - you've got to have experience and capability on your business. And so, we are now in such a great spot through the pandemic - you know, we grew 35%. Now you're 31% and 21. And all of that was done on the backs of this, this distribution- Patti Dobrowolski 11:37 Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. Now, has this supply chain, uh, COVID, did that impact you guys at all? Dan Sheridan 11:44 It did, you know, starting in July of last year, Patti. I think, as everyone was starting to see - COVID, you know, impacted all the factories throughout Vietnam and broader Asia. And so our footwear and apparel factories were impacted pretty drastically. We focused on our people, obviously. And luckily, we kept them safe and healthy. But you know, the impact is massive in our industry. So we talk about it in terms of, it's kind of like a crop that yeah, that just goes bad. And we lost a crop of shoes. And we estimate about 7 million units we lost in production as those factories were working through COVID. And so we're digging out right now, like every day. Patti Dobrowolski 12:22 Yeah, yeah. And when things like that happened, so what leadership things do you call upon in yourself? Like, I looked to see who you're influenced by - you've got Simon Sinek there, you got Brené Brown there, you know, you have some other leaders in there. So what do you call upon in yourself to help you figure out what to do? Dan Sheridan 12:43 You know, it's something I reflect a lot on. I've been through a lot of change management at Brooks, whether it's changing in ownership, whether it's, you know, projects that have gone sideways, and the distribution center, one of those, now we've got a pandemic supply chain challenge, you know, we're actually going to be impacted by this war that's going on. And so, you know, in moments like this, the very first thing I always tell our teams is we're going to act like Brooks, no matter what's happening. Patti Dobrowolski 13:10 That's right. Dan Sheridan 13:11 We got to know who we are, what are our values? What's our purpose? So that's rule number one, we're going to act the same way we did in times of prosper as we do in times of crisis. So: focus on the customer, focus on the runner, focus on our employees, and begin to get into a faster cadence. One of the things we find in crises is, if you're not telling your story, somebody is filling that gap, whether a competitor is or an employee is, somebody that may not be as engaged. So, we always get into the special cadence of communication, that maybe we're not always in in times of smooth business journey. So, you know, communication is huge during crisis and change management. During the pandemic, you know, we would have four times a year where we do company meetings, we're doing them every single Friday for an hour. Jim and I in the leadership team, we're on a town hall, every Friday, just communicating what's going on in the business decisions we're making, taking questions from employees. So I think when you go through these moments, you got to act the same way you do in good times, you got to over-communicate, and you got to understand who your stakeholders are and who you want to communicate to. And that's something that's served us well. And then, I think, we lead with authenticity. You know, I'm the same person I am at work as I am at home - my wife would probably, you know, say that's true. And that's not always a good thing (laughs). But I'm lucky to have, you know, just my ability to act the same wherever I am. And so, I'm married to the love of my life. And I've got two great kids that are, I think, benefited from me being home the last two years. I don't know, I have a 14 year old daughter and she and I are tight. My son is 12, and is one of my best buddies. And so, it's good - I think that shows up at work too, people know who I am because I've been here a while and I haven't changed over the 23. I've changed. I'm getting older. Patti Dobrowolski 15:05 Yeah, that's that's really it, but you're still fun - and funny, engaging. You know, these are the things that matter, really. And caring - I think this is one of the things that I noted - when I worked with you is that you were kind to people: you just were, it was part of your DNA. And I don't know, all leaders are like that, you know, you sort of get full of what's holding up your head, you know, what all the things you're worrying about, sort of interfere with your ability to communicate with kindness sometimes, and I never witnessed that even when you were giving feedback to people, which was necessary and important and essential in the room. It was always done in a way that helped them to take the biggest leap. I was telling, you know, I've started to do this new thing with Draw Your Future, which is at the current reality, when you get to the challenges, I've started to ask people: Alright, so if every experience without exception is here for you to grow from, what's the superpower that you're getting from that challenge? Because I think that's what we all learned in COVID - was we got to develop some superpowers, one of them was appreciation for whoever was running the household, because you got to see what they actually did every day, and then you got to pitch in. And then you got to be more in that - It was almost like we went back in time, you know, to a time where being with your family mattered, right? Because we've gotten so caught up in being out there, right? And so when COVID hit, how did you personally adjust? How did you adjust? Why did you have to pivot in yourself? Dan Sheridan 16:40 Well, I think I appreciate those comments on kindness. I grew up in a household, I was one of six kids, Irish Catholic family, my parents were both teachers. And so I tell people that- Patti Dobrowolski 16:53 That's where your work ethic came from. Dan Sheridan 16:55 Yeah, I also think humility is something that, you know, at times, I get maybe critique that, I don't maybe speak or network enough into the industry. But here's how I was raised: I was raised one of six. If you were cocky, or confident even, you got smacked down. I was second to youngest. So if you really got cocky - and that still exists today, to be honest with you. I've got five brothers and sisters that live within, you know, about 30 miles of me and, and to this day, we still have this relationship, which is rooted in humility, and kindness. And my parents may never explicitly said those words to us every day, but that's what our household was built on - it was built on humility, kindness, and I would add humor at the end, because with six kids, you got to be able to laugh at yourself. Patti Dobrowolski 17:43 Oh yeah, no doubt. Dan Sheridan 17:45 The neighbors were laughing at us, believe me. Patti Dobrowolski 17:49 Two teacher salaries, six kids, you know, that's slim living. Next Friday, are we going to have enough food, right? Dan Sheridan 17:55 Yeah, yeah, I got many stories about that. But my parents were incredible. And I know, I had a launchpad that not a lot of people had though, to be very transparent. I was fortunate for all the reasons - my race, just where we were in our community, and the people that surrounded us. So when COVID hit - to get back to that question - on a personal level, it was this pause in our life that actually I was thrilled about. I was traveling 25-30 weeks a year, internationally, domestically, wow. And my pace was at a rate that probably wasn't sustainable for me, for my wife, my kids, my relationships outside of my wife and kids. And so, you know, we really paused as a family, and we started talking about our values - what are the values that we want people to think about when they think of us? And so I brought up, you know, “be humble and kind”. And that's something now that we say to our kids, as they walk out the door, "be humble and kind, be humble and kind", - and my daughter will say, "I'm being humble and kind." Patti Dobrowolski 19:01 Yeah. Dan Sheridan 19:01 We've decided that we're going to start to add to these values as a family and so they're having input on it. They (my son and daughter) are very funny people. And so they're starting to add. So I think during COVID, that spilled over into me as a leader, and I started to think about the kindness - one that the world needed, as we all know - but more so just what everybody was going through: employees, the stress that was on employees. My wife's a pediatrician here in Seattle and she would come home and talk about the stress on kids and teenagers and, and just stress on the medical profession and so, I can see it throughout my everyday. So, we adopted "be humble and kind" and I'm going to get T-shirts made for the Sheridan family that say that. Patti Dobrowolski 19:49 That's good. You should let me design them for you. I've been doing this, my new thing. I've just done T-shirts, and they're fantastic. There's nothing too fancy about them, but they get the point. Well, I love that. And when you think about the future for you, what do you think about, like, did you know that you were going to move into the President's role? We had a brief conversation, but did you know that it was a goal of yours? How do you figure that out for yourself? Dan Sheridan 19:57 Oh, I'd love that. You know, I think I'd be lying if I said in 1998 I had this grand plan to become- At that time, there was not one person that would have bet on it either. Just for the record, I didn't know what I was doing. Some might argue, I still don't know what I'm doing. But you know, look, I've always been somebody that likes to be in front of the pack, not back of the pack. And I've been wired that way. I think it's, you know, my upbringing - my parents are that way, and so I've been wired that way. So I always knew that I wanted to lead. Patti Dobrowolski 20:39 Yeah. Dan Sheridan 20:45 And, so that's the first thing. And so yeah, you know, as my career started to progress, I knew I wanted to lead something - whether it was Brooks, or somewhere else in the path open for me to develop my career here. I think when I think about the future is one thing that I've been reflecting on a lot during all this change that's going on, and uncertainty and fear and negative division that's happening throughout the world, is that I think as leaders, you have to have optimism. If you don't have optimism in yourself, in how you lead, progress is really hard to think about. And so I've been trying to practice optimism. I'm an Irishman. So, optimism is not the first thing that comes into an Irish brain. But, you know, I think leaders have to be optimistic. And if they're not, their teams aren't going to be, um, they're not going to see the vision you have, they're not going to see why you're doing things. And so for me, the future is optimistic for my kids, for Brooks. For me as a person, I'm, you know, cresting 50, here, and so I've got a runway here that can still do great things in terms of my family and my professional life. So I think the future is optimistic. And I think we've got to get more people thinking about what we can do to make it optimistic for more people. Patti Dobrowolski 22:23 Yes, yes. And I would agree, I think that when Brooks started to do "Run Happy'' is when I was like, oh, yeah, now we're turning. Now we're turning, because we're all about community now. And we're understanding, really, we understand the neuroscience of what it means to get out there. And so if we can find a way to help people - you know, I still am fascinated with how, one out of eight people, even when they could die from something, will not make change - you know, that's the stat - is that only one out of eight will actually make the change. So what do we do to show people in incremental ways how you can make change more easily by simply getting out and walking. Walk first, run second, that's how I get - you know, I'm a cyclist, but every year, I'm like, you know, it's good on your bones when you get out there and run. So start running a little bit, see what you can do in running. And then of course, I get obsessed with that - like every other, you know, any kind of athletic thing, you know, you just got to do it. But one of the things that I wonder about is when you think about that stat about people needing to change - and you think about how do people make change, you know, and how do people in their health make change - how do you all talk about it there at Brooks? And how do you think about it? Dan Sheridan 23:47 Yeah. So there's a lot of ways to answer this question. I mean, everybody's different, right? So what are your motivations, your intrinsic or extrinsic motivations, right? You know, for me, some people may say, I have extrinsic motivations, you know, I want to move people in when I talk to them, I want them to develop underneath me, as I manage groups and teams and businesses. I have a lot of intrinsic motivation as well. And, you know, that comes out of a fear of people thinking “I'm not smart”, or a fear of not being in shape, or, you know, not being clear in how I communicate. So I think it really depends on this extrinsic and intrinsic motivation that people have. We have some good friends, we had this discussion the other night over a glass of wine around this topic. And so at Brooks, we think about that. And the truth is, Patti, that we have to do all of it because we want everyone to be a part of this brand. We want this to be the most inclusive brand in the world. Because running is the simplest thing to do - running and walking is the simplest sport to do. Really, all you need is a great pair of shoes - Patti Dobrowolski 24:55 That's right. Dan Sheridan 24:56 - to move and you can just kind of hit people with the reasons to move, you know, ultimately we believe running can change your day, can change your life. And I think all added up, it could change the world, not only in terms of health and wellness, but it may ease tension and debate and conflict in our lives. So we try and really think about everybody that's invited to this game, which we think is the greatest game in sporting goods, and- Patti Dobrowolski 25:25 Yeah, yeah, it's the easiest, let's be clear about that, you know, if you travel as much as you do, and as often as much as I do, and now we're open again to travel. So we're back on, the thing that goes in that suitcase are my running shoes, because I know that no matter where I am, I can either go to the gym and run - or I can get outside, which is even better, and then you know, do what everybody calls nature bathing. Now, it just cracks me up. Because you know, what that means is we were just going out and playing in the field before, and now we're finding a place to run and you know, nature bathe. But what's also true about that - and this is the research that's being done around flow - that if you want to get into a state of flow, you add some challenge to it, and then you add some physicality to it, and then you add some drive to it. And then suddenly, you're in a state of flow, as you know, when you go running, right. The greatest part of it is that it makes you feel so good. You want to do it tomorrow. And this is what people forget, yeah - once you get past the really hard hurdle of the first couple days, right? And you get into the first couple of weeks; and then the third and fourth, fifth week, you're hooked. And you never want to stop. That's what- Dan Sheridan 26:46 Habits, habits, habits - and they can be every other day habits. Don't have to be every day. Patti Dobrowolski 26:51 No, I know it's little tiny things. So you can hit the success button. Dan Sheridan 26:55 My alarm goes off, the first thing I think about is coffee. Second thing I think about is: I just have to move before I go to work. I got to do something, right. And so, you know, some days that I don't always get to it, but I think about it every single day. So that's my habit that I think about and that's something that I think doesn't have to be every day - it can be every other day. Patti Dobrowolski 27:19 That's right. Well, I think I love this because what you said was: I think about it every day. And I do too. If I'm not on that bike, I'm thinking about it every single day. Because I know that it makes me feel better, and I know I don't want to lose my shape. I don't want to lose my fitness. It's hard earned. Right? And so that's it. All right, well, I know you're busy. I don't want to keep you from what other things you've got going. I love this. And I hope you'll come back and talk again, just about as you ease into that President role. And you keep doing that - I want to hear how it's going. So, just leave us with some thoughts. What would you say are some tips for people who need to pivot or want to step into leadership? What would you tell them? Dan Sheridan 28:05 Yeah, I think this is such an interesting question for a lot of reasons. I think leadership roles, you know, there's this debate of, are you born a leader? Or can you develop leadership? I think you can absolutely develop leadership. Patti Dobrowolski 28:17 Yes, yes. Dan Sheridan 28:18 I think you have to love it. You have to absolutely love leadership in every kind of fashion, right? You have to understand that it's not about authority - it's about responsibility. And that's a Simon Sinek thing that I just gravitate to. You have to think about service in terms of leadership. Sometimes, you have to think about the hard decisions and everything that comes with it, and the responsibility that comes with it…but you gotta love it. And so when I talk to people, and they ask about leadership, I ask them, do you love it? And it doesn't mean you have to love it 100% of the time - I have an 80:20 rule that I live by: 80% of what I do, I love; 20% I don't - and if it ever gets out of whack for a long period of time, I'm probably going to shift. Patti Dobrowolski 29:06 You're going to change something. Dan Sheridan 29:07 I'm gonna change. And so I think you know, somebody that's thinking about a leadership role, you got to answer the question, are you going to love it? And you don't have to answer it until you're in it, right? But you got to love it to be in leadership. And I think if you can have an optimistic mind, you can communicate really effectively, and you can be authentic every day you show up, then you're probably going to have a pretty good run as a leader and I'm still working all those every day. Patti Dobrowolski 29:35 Yeah. But you've had a fantastic run as a leader. That's what's true. And your teams love working for you. You can see it in the room when I was facilitating those rooms full of people. I'd be like, whoa, this is incredible. At the end, you know, it just was so amazing to see the build and you create the environment for that. So, I would say, you know, always look at "Do you love it as a leader?" and just know that leadership is a skill you develop over time. And so what are you reading right now about leadership? What's your, you know, just as something that you would tell us? What are you reading? Dan Sheridan 30:13 So I'm rereading right now, Angela Duckworth. Patti Dobrowolski 30:17 Yeah, “Grit”. Me too. Me too. Dan Sheridan 30:20 She's incredible. So I started reading it for a lot of reasons. One, we redid; rewrote all of our values of Brooks in 2021. And when we started to tell stories, we wanted stories attached to all the values. So new people coming to Brooks could experience the value instead of just reading on a wall. And one of our values is "Champion Heart". And we were having a hard time explaining what Champion Heart was. And I said, it's grit. That's what it is. It's grit. And so I'm reading that for a lot of reasons. But one of them is that I just think that there's talent in this world, and then there's grit - and you got to have both. And I think in leadership roles, you got to have a lot of talent. I didn't go to business school, I wasn't classically trained in business, I don't have an MBA; I'm not apologizing for any of that. But what I do have is I have a work ethic, and I have a way to connect people and that served me well. So for me, I refresh myself sometimes by rereading books. I also think deeply in terms of just communicating with great leaders. And I've been very fortunate at Brooks to be under the guidance of Jim Weber, who's been here for 20 years, and his leadership and many board members and the network in this industry. I refresh myself through leadership through people, and books, and podcasts, and you, Patti. Yes. Patti Dobrowolski 31:43 I can't let this end without saying that you are amazing. You have changed the way I think you've helped Brooks along our journey. Your ability to tap into people's creativity is insane. So right back atcha - I love ya. I love seeing your name. I love seeing articles. I love it. This has been so much fun. Thanks for having me. Patti Dobrowolski 31:43 Yeah. We're into that Grit piece. Because this week, I'm - you know, I do coaching some classes, online classes, and this week is about grit coming up, because it's the thing that separates whether you're gonna get something done or not - you got to get in there and get your hands dirty. And I just remembered that about you going up with a supply chain issue talking to you in the lunch room, and you're like - on your way there. And I was like, okay, here we go. He's rolled up his sleeves, and there he goes. Well, that's just one of the amazing qualities, only one of the many amazing qualities of you as a leader: your humility and your kindness. I'm just so grateful for you to take the time and to spend time with the audience today and sharing some of your wisdom because all those nuggets are going to drop and they're going to go: Yes, I love that! So thank you so much for everything and for being here with me today. Patti Dobrowolski 33:00 Oh, it was so great. And you know everybody listening in. You know, if you love this podcast, be sure to share it with your friends because this guy - not like he needs more visibility, his family will just give him a hard time about it - so we don't want him to get too tease on that end. But these tips are important. So share them with everybody, and you know what to do. Until next time, Up Your Creative Genius. Thanks, everybody. Patti Dobrowolski 33:28 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius! And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap!

Meagan is a Director in the Customer Experience & Success (CE&S) organization at Microsoft, realizing the connected customer experience vision across customer touchpoints. Over the course of her career, Meagan has driven award-winning operational improvements, digital transformation, and modern technology deployment within complex, matrixed environments. She has been recognized throughout her career for her collaborative leadership style, uncanny bias for action, and ability to lead teams in achieving the “impossible.” As an agile thinker, she is accomplished at empowering talented and diverse teams, cultivating innovation, and thinking laterally to solve delivery, speed, and quality obstacles. Meagan has an entrepreneurial background with demonstrated success with a mix of business startups and mature, multinational organizations. Timestamp 2:29 Meagan O'Leary's backstory 6:29 From CPA to running bagel bakery in Gig Harbor, Washington 9:10 Becoming a part of University of T Mobile and then getting a job at Microsoft 11:47 Coping with cancer 13:03 How Meagan cured herself and the beach ball metaphor 15:45 Meeting Joe Dispenza and what he said to Meagan 18:00 From poor me syndrome to prioritizing sleep and exercise 21:36 How to start your next thing 23:25 Metabolic approach to cancer with Nasha Winters and Foundation training 28:43 How Meagan sets herself up for success 30:00 Your network is everything 30:52 Meagan's reading list Social Media Meagan O'Leary on Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/meagano/ Meagan's Podcast Interview on Superage Podcast https://www.weareageist.com/superage-podcast/complete-cancer-cell-removal-without-chemo-we-are-all-unique-and-this-is-what-worked-for-me-meagan-oleary/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patty Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 Hey, everybody, oh my gosh, I have Meagan O'Leary here, she is the most incredible person, you are going to love all the things that she talks about. I can't wait to get started. But I got to introduce you first. Welcome Maegan first, just. Hello! Meagan O'Leary 00:54 Hey there! Patti Dobrowolski 00:57 So, let me just tell you, everybody, she's a Director in the Customer Experience and Success Operations at Microsoft. Now she'll tell you if you want to hear more about what that is. But let's just say that in her 16 years of working at Microsoft, she's driven these award winning operation improvements, digital transformation, modern technology deployment within a complex matrix environment, which Microsoft is. But she is known for her collaborative leadership, her uncanny bias for action, and for leading teams to do what people consider to be the impossible. But my favorite part of your bio was when you wrote about yourself as a coach, advocate motivator that you learned from your own and your clients experiences that the true and most successful path to health and wellness stems from self empowerment and autonomy. Oh my god, I can't wait to talk about that. So welcome to the show. Thank you. Alright, so good to see you, too. I see you have in the background. For those of you that are just listening, she's drawn a picture of her and me, and she's got a picture of her most recent map up there. So that'll be fun to see what of those things already happened because I know you you draw a map and then boom, you got to draw another one like a week later. The consummate activator here. So tell everybody a little bit about yourself. How did you become and do and get to who you are today? Meagan O'Leary 02:29 Well, okay, I live in Seattle, Washington right now. I grew up on the east coast of the United States. My whole life there. My dad was what we call a beltway bandit. So anybody lives around the Washington DC area knows that means he worked for the government as a West Point grad. So he actually even worked with Liddy Dole and Robert Reich, and it was just an amazing place to grow up in a subdivision called Wayside, and Tamarack. All the kids that grew up there. We still go and share the things we learned we did because we had a creek that ran all the way around our neighborhood. We'd go and play in the creek. And we share still the stories of those times in the Facebook group, which is really fun. Patti Dobrowolski 03:08 But anyway, so the first thing is it stands out to me as your dad was a West Point grad. Right. So that just tells you right there. What an incredible, you know, disciplined environment you grew up in? Meagan O'Leary 03:22 Yeah, well, yes. And he was a West Point hippie as well. Okay. All right. That's good. A little bit of West Point, hippie, and yes, he was disciplined. He was an engineer. And he moved on. He eventually left the government had his own companies did mergers and acquisitions. But I ended up staying in Seattle area in the Washington DC area. Tell us about 27 years old. Okay. And yeah, and I was my early career. I was a certified public accountant, Patti Dobrowolski 03:47 CPA. Oh, no, no, that's fantastic. Okay, good. Meagan O'Leary 03:53 I graduated when there was a bit of a recession on the East Coast. When I was in school, I went to University of New Hampshire. I worked in the controller's office, or they call it comptroller's office. My first job there was the registrar's office was going from accepting checks and money now just dating myself here checks and money to a computer system. So my job was all of the registered ladies. They're all ladies would scooch the little chairs up around me and I would teach them how to use their computer. Patti Dobrowolski 04:19 Oh my God. And so you know, how far afield is that today? You just really getting everybody to scooch their chairs up so you can show them like, Okay, here's some magic I meant to do on the computer, just watch. Meagan O'Leary 04:33 And they were laughing and it was kind of fun. So I went to University New Hampshire, I went back to Washington, DC where I grew up, I ended up getting my CPA license, worked for a real estate development company for a few years. And then my grandmother had been in Tacoma, Washington, we used to spend our summers there, just passed away, left the family a little bit of money. So me, my brother and my mother, we decided to move to the Washington Tacoma area and open up a bagel bakery. Patti Dobrowolski 05:01 That is fantastic. Meagan O'Leary 05:03 Now, Patti Dobrowolski 05:03 You know, I spent part of my childhood in Tacoma too. Did you know that? That one of my great aunts lived there? And so we would go there. Yeah. Yeah. So all right. So you worked in a bagel bakery, you had one. Meagan O'Leary 05:15 We had one we ran for a few years. Hard work. Learned a lot. I would say the biggest learning experience I always tell people I had from the bagel bakery was probably towards the end of my two year run there. A woman came in and said, your cinnamon raisin bagels have no raisins in them. Why would we have cinnamon raisin bagels and not have any raisins? And she goes, Why can't see them? So there aren't any raisins in there. And I ah. So we have a big mixer. And we would mix the raisins in. I said, Would it help? If I mix the raisins less? So you could see them? She goes, that would be perfect. I said then would you believe that they have raisins in them? Yes, she said. But I can't tell you how much that left an impression on me around perspectives and different people's perspectives. Even though there were raisins in there. She couldn't see him. She didn't believe that they were there. Right. Patti Dobrowolski 06:02 Oh, so, then how does that translate to your everyday life? Now when you think about that, that you have to leave a little trail of something that's more visible so that people understand that it's there. Yeah. Meagan O'Leary 06:15 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. People can't see it, smell it, touch it, whatever their favorite way to experience the world that it doesn't exist. This woman just needed to see her raisin. Meagan O'Leary 06:27 I love it. So what happened after that? Meagan O'Leary 06:29 So after that, I moved from Gig Harbor, Washington where we opened the bagel bakery in the 90s. And you can go back and look at Gig Harbor in the 90s. It was not Gig Harbor up today. And we sold bagels. But we didn't sell bagels like you would sell bagels on the East Coast and the East Coast. People buy bags of bagels and cream cheese. People in Gig Harbor, Washington, they wanted sandwiches with high labor. We were fairly successful, I would say and we didn't anticipate there being so many sandwiches that we would be making every day. So anyway, we sold that I moved into the city and I worked and went back into accounting as a controller for various restaurants in the city. So if anybody's in the city, you would know the B-liner Diner at the time the Coastal Kitchen, the Five Spot or something called Luncheonette. So we're for these gentlemen Mr Chow Foos. They ran these restaurants. So I was their controller. And I would ride my bike from restaurant to restaurant and do the books, essentially. Patti Dobrowolski 07:26 That's fantastic. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Okay. And then how did you end up at Microsoft then? Meagan O'Leary 07:32 Okay, so after that, I went to a restaurant that was a cross over in Bellevue. And I worked there for about a year and a half. And the gentleman that was running the restaurant, and I, he and I just, I'd say we didn't get along so well. So I ended up losing my job. I'd never been fired before. So I was fired. best thing that ever happened to me. I mean, the moment no, but back best thing that ever happened. So I collected myself. And I met this woman who did placements at the time I choose, she'd helped people find a job. And so I went and met with her. Still, she and I still talked to this day. And I remember I had on this beautiful suit. And I went in to talk to her and said, look, you know, I'm looking for my next thing. And she looked at me as if you need a new cycle, not a new cycle. She goes, you just need a new cycle. And I said, like what she said, Well, there's a little company called Western wireless out in Issaquah, Washington, those of you aren't local. And they need somebody temporarily to take a role for somebody and accounts receivable while this woman's having her baby. And I said, Okay, so you think that's a new cycle? She goes, Yeah, it's a new company, a new industry, and you're out of the restaurant. I think it'll be good for you. So I go, and I get this temporary job with Western Wireless. And with a permanent job, Western wireless becomes VoiceStream VoiceStream becomes T Mobile. So I did an eight year run from I remember us having 100,000 subscribers on the VoiceStream network. And then we were purchased by Deutsche Telekom. And so I ran really all the back office systems for what became T Mobile at the time. Patti Dobrowolski 09:01 Wow. That is incredible. Oh, my God. I remember when T Mobile was happening then became such a big kaboom. Yes. All right. So T Mobile. Meagan O'Leary 09:10 Yeah, we call it the University of TMobile, because all of us that are there. Again, we're all in a Facebook group. And we still share information. And it was really a close knit group of people. So from there, I was recruited into Microsoft into leading a, they call it a time a customer data integration project. So it was a data mastery project. And I'd been running the back office systems for SAP for SAP, and I implemented SAP, at T Mobile. So then I go to Microsoft, and I got more into the data space. And so from there, I moved into the Partner Group, which I think you work with a lot of folks in the partner Yep. So that's how I kind of kind of touch base. Then I went to a field facing sales tool implementation role. Then I moved into finance for about six years. Then I moved into the Microsoft Consulting Services. And now I'm in the organization which is CNS, which is. Patti Dobrowolski 10:06 Yeah, fantastic. Well, and what I know from you is that even in the time that I've known you, you've moved around in there. And that's the I think the beauty of Microsoft is that once you get there, you can move around a lot into different organizations, you can have different roles, you can expand yourself, and and you certainly have now, what in the world do you think? Did you enjoy all that movement? And then what happened to you after that? When I met you, you had just recovered from cancer? So say a little bit about what that. Meagan O'Leary 10:38 Oh yeah. That happened in the middle of it? Well, so my philosophy at Microsoft has always been I would come in, build a strategy, put together the plan, implement, and I always finish what I started, always. But once I finished what I'd start if there wasn't something exciting where I was, I would look for something new. Patti Dobrowolski 10:55 Something else. Yeah, yeah. easily bored. Gotta move on. Right. Meagan O'Leary 10:59 Yeah. I think that's part of my nature. Yeah. And, you know, I think I have a pretty good brand, Microsoft, and I'm known for getting things done. I'm known for, as you mentioned, in the bio, working effectively with others. And, as you mentioned, in the middle of my career in finance, I was in finance six years, probably longer than I've ever been any place. I ended up with a cancer diagnosis. And, you know, it was a hard time for me. Really hard time. Patti Dobrowolski 11:29 Yeah. Well, I and you were in a relationship at the time. Right. And you have a young son? I do right. 14 now. Yeah. And so but at that time, you know, that must have been really scary for you. How did you cope with all of that? Meagan O'Leary 11:46 Cope isn't interesting. I don't think I did cope. It's interesting Patty, look and see if I have it. I do have it. I know not everybody can see the video. But I was thinking about one of my coping things that or, something that happened, and I'm holding up this book called Meagan Bear Adventures. And I'm going out of the office for about three months ended up with a double mastectomy. So I had cancer, both breasts and different cancer in both breasts. And while I was gone, my team purchased this. It's a describe it for folks. It's a rainbow bear. And it would light up and see the lights. And while I was out for three months, they would take the bear to meetings, there was an outing, there was a party, and they took the bear to the party. Patti Dobrowolski 12:28 I love that. Meagan O'Leary 12:29 So you see this book, Patti Dobrowolski 12:31 That is so sweet. So the sweetest thing ever. Patti Dobrowolski 12:33 That really, that is so amazing. And one of the things that to me is amazing about you, is that you claimed your health, you reclaimed it. And so say a little bit about what you did, because you're a complete bio hacker. I mean, you check your metrics all the time about where things are. And so talk about how you learned about that and what you did to help yourself, really cure yourself. You really did. Talk about it. Meagan O'Leary 13:02 I did. I did cure myself. And the way I describe it to people is, this is the metaphor I have used when I talk to folks. And when you're involved in a diagnosis, you know, you're talking to the person that's giving you the diagnosis, and they have a perspective. What I came to learn is, is my beach ball metaphor, and I'm writing about it right now, if I'm sitting here and you're sitting across me, Patti, I'm looking at the yellow stripe on the beach ball, you're looking at the red stripe, right? There's somebody over here looking at the blue stripe, and another person looking at the green stripe. Yeah, each one of those stripes is a doctor or a therapist or oncologist or someone within the world given me a perspective on my diagnosis and my prognosis. And what I realized is, I can't just listen to the one stripe story, I need to get up on top of the beachball look down at all the colors, and really listen to what people are telling me, and then figure out what's going on in my body. I do a lot of testing, I do a lot of blood draws, and different tests, different modalities. I even have a continuous glucose monitor that I wear every day to see what my blood sugar is doing. And so I test and I assess, and I make decisions on what I think is right for me to do. Patti Dobrowolski 14:12 What you need to eat and how much sleep and things like that, right? Meagan O'Leary 14:16 Yeah. And I'm not perfect in any means with this. It's hard. I just looked at the options. I did the research. I had the mindset of everything's a good idea until it's not a good idea. And so I would look at and being somebody who worked on machine learning and I know statistics, I would look at the statistics and what folks are saying and in the cancer space, it just turns out that the treatment tends to in a conventional way, go towards the worst case scenario. Yeah, if you look at anything as a sine curve to it, yep, there's the right side and there's the left side and then there's the middle. I decided I didn't want to plan for the worst. I wanted to plan for the healthiest. Yeah, the healthiest alternative, how I could be the most vital how I could live as long as possibly could. Patti Dobrowolski 15:01 Yeah, yeah. And so you did. And so you are true. Alright. And so part of that is you took that three months to really take care of yourself. But then how did you change? Because I think, oftentimes, and this is just my perception, and you can say. What drove you into having that kind of activating that cancer gene that you had, right? But I often feel like stressful environments where you're working too much not sleeping enough eating really crappy food, and they all these things contribute to the activation of it. And what did you change in your behavior as a result of getting that? What changed in you? Or what didn't change? Because there's so many things did, right? Meagan O'Leary 15:45 Yeah. You know, one story that I haven't told a lot of people. It was a four years ago, this month, that I was diagnosed breast cancer. And a month after that, I got on an airplane and flew down to this church called Agave. I'm not somebody who's generally very religious, but Agave is run by Reverend Beckwith, do you know him? Yes, yes. And he had a guest there named Joe Dispenza. And so I went there. And I actually met some fantastic people. And so friends with them today. And I ended up having a conversation with Reverend Beckwith, about my situation. So look, I was just diagnosed with breast cancer, and I'm super stressed out about it. And he took both of his hands and he put them right above my chest, and he closed his eyes. And I'm standing there, I'm like, Okay, I'm not sure really what's going on here. And it was about a minute and he opened his eyes, he said, You are going to live a long life. And I realized one of the keys to living that long life was to rethink some things. But also that connection that I had with him in the moment was amazing. Later that day, I got to meet Joe Dispenza, a friend of mine that I met there knew him very well. And I had a conversation with him around, you know, hey, what does it take? What should I do? And then he and I had a conversation, he said, you know, you have to make the choices that work for you, there's probably not a path, that's the same for everybody. But you have to make the choice for you. And I was actually going back and forth around mastectomy and not to have a mastectomy. And he looked at me, he said, it may be that getting a mastectomy is going to help you jumpstart your health. And I thought, why I had never really thought about it that way, you know, that you can get through some of the dysfunction in your body, and you can jump started. So with that, that was kind of my start on what would become the journey of last four years. Patti Dobrowolski 17:32 Yeah. And you know, one of the things that you said in your bio, is that you believe that the successful path is through self empowerment and autonomy. And so autonomy is like you in the beach ball. Right? And self empowerment is you reclaiming your choices, right? Not being victimized by it. Did you ever find that you felt victimized by the experience? We just had some days where you're like, why did it happen to me and like that? Meagan O'Leary 18:01 Yeah, definitely. Poor me syndrome. Yeah, for definitely poor me syndrome. And one of the things that you asked how the why of this, or you know, what happened? What did I change, I had some roles over the years, that I would get up at five in the morning, I would do cardio, I would jump on phone calls, I would work all day, I try to take a break in the middle of the day, but I'd be back on phone calls at nine or 10 at night. So I was running a pretty long day. And you know, even the breaks I was doing during the day didn't help me refresh. And often I would choose cardio oversleeping. And when I think back on those days, or even look at some of the sleep tracking, I would have nights with for sleep. Yeah. And now seven hours is what I did. Patti Dobrowolski 18:44 Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you actually was okay. So if that was your day in the past, what's your day in the present? What does it look like for you? Meagan O'Leary 18:52 Yeah, what I found for me is I prioritize sleep. Yeah. So if I'm looking at this, I'm like, Well, I'm, I've got something going on, I'm not gonna go to bed till 10. I'm going to sleep in rather than getting up and working out. And I do prioritize working out. It's very important to me to move my body. Effectively, I beat my office into the basement, and I workout room right across the way so I can run over and ride the bike or do something. So it's a little more integrated to my with my day, then separate and apart. But let's say sleep versus definitely the magic for me. Patti Dobrowolski 19:21 Yeah. And also the other pieces that you got to place up on Camino island during that same time, right. So you were able to get out into I don't know the woods as much as you can get in the woods. Right. You're right on the water there. And yeah, so I think these things play an important role. But then how did your wife deal with it and your kids? I mean, how did your son deal with it? Meagan O'Leary 19:46 Um, you know, my son's been great. He had empathy at two they say that they don't even fear to but he did have empathy at two. I do think he's still protective of me. Yeah, okay. I think he felt like he was or could lose me so easily. does have a little bit of protectionism towards me? And Shannon, my wife, it was just a jolt for both of us. And it brought us closer together. Patti Dobrowolski 20:09 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, she's such an amazing coach in her own right, you know, just getting people motivated to change their life and get things going. So, I mean, it's an amazing combo, the two of you, number one, and also that you were able to really transform yourself. And for years, that's all it's been. So I think I met you right at that time, when you had just been, you know, you had gotten your first clear from that, when you went to the doctor, they said that it was clear, Meagan O'Leary 20:38 It was clear it, it came back and clear to came back and cleared several times. And I've, you know, finally figured some things out. I mean, notice, for me, I'm 40 pounds lighter than I used to be, I also prioritize connections with others and connection with myself and be mindful of what I need and super mindful of what I want from other people. And then something that's also important is what are those boundaries for my life, you know, to have the relationship with my family, to spend the time with my family to be able to get the sleep I need in the workout. So, you know, boundaries in this type of situation become really important. And I would go back to the bear and the people that work for me, and yeah, how loving and caring they were for me. And while I was gone, they covered for me, when I came back, they made sure that I had the time, I needed to take care of myself, because I was doing things like high dose vitamin C twice a week and hyperbaric oxygen, oxygen tank, I get into for 90 minutes. So I had a lot of things I was still doing. And they were fantastic. Patti Dobrowolski 21:36 Yeah, that's fantastic. And I just think that one of the things that I really admire about you and appreciate is that you're always looking at what the next thing is that you have to do, whether it's in your career, or whether it's in your health, you're always trying to figure out well, now what now what do I need to do? And so when you think about the now what for what you're doing now, what do you envision for yourself? I know, you appreciate your work at Microsoft. But what else are you doing or thinking about? Are you doing any writing what's happening? Meagan O'Leary 22:09 I love to write, I was a journalist. Before I was anything else where I was younger, I was on the school paper. It was interesting how I got away from that. And I've back at it. Now I actually have someone who edits my writing for me, so I can write more. I'm writing my beach ball story right now. All right, usually on my the anniversary of the finding out I had breast cancer, I try to write something as well. So I'm in the middle of that right now. And for me, I've started to coach at bring some folks on scholarship that I coach on, how do you work through an early diagnosis? What are the things that you can think about? How can you create your own board of directors around the beach ball? And how do you want to be with it? What do you need to do to get your mind body and spirit back to where you need to be? So I do work with women in that in that regard? I am working I've I'm a certified primal health coach with Mark Seisen. I'm a certified heart math coach, do you know Heart Math? Yes, of course. Okay, yeah, about heart coherence head heart coherence. And so it's a practice that I have, I use their biofeedback tool to look and see, how's my coherence? And what can I do to make sure I'm going to do maybe a stressful situation? How can I manage it more effectively? But right now I'm studying to become a health and wellness coach, through the Functional Medicine Institute. Patti Dobrowolski 23:23 Oh, yeah. Fantastic. Meagan O'Leary 23:25 Yeah. Finishing up something at a training program. It's called the train advocacy program with Nasha Winters, who wrote the metabolic approach to cancer. And finishing that up right now, it's all about how to help people assess with their doctor what's happening with their terrain, so they can have the right plan to do what I did, essentially. And then I'm doing something really fun called Foundation Training. Have you done that? You know, what sad foundation training is all about breathing and posture, think about having a lot of scar tissue in your chest, and it can cause your body to pull in. And so I found foundation training as a way to open my body back up, and then also help with some back pain that I had. And it's a series of, of movements that pulls you out in decompresses your body, but creates a spiral such that you can you can move in a healthier way to not pull yourself. Patti Dobrowolski 24:13 I love that I got to do that for sure. You know, I got that scar, that railroad scar, I got to do something with that. That's all Yeah, I have to have that conversation with you offline. That's fantastic. Now, behind you, you've got a vision map up there. So I know that we've done many of vision map together. So tell me what's in that vision of the future for you what's up there on that picture? Meagan O'Leary 24:35 Well, I don't know if this is the last one. Well, it must be because what's in there for me is when I decide I'm going to leave from Microsoft when I have no idea when that is how do I expand upon this coaching that I'm doing right now with people to help them find their own path? And you know, I want to spend more time doing that. I want to spend more time learning these if modalities and ways to help people because I love doing it. For someone who did not do well in high school Biology, you know, just for me to have learned all this and picked it up and even this foundation course I'm going through all the anatomy and physiology how the body works, just for me to bring more of that into the world to help more people is really what I want to do. Patti Dobrowolski 25:13 Yeah. And you're gonna be so fantastic at that. I know that I have been like pushing you to do for a long time, like, get out, do it. But one of the things that you talk about is you talk about some people's perception of cancer, and how they have it and what they say about it. Can you speak a little bit about that? You know, where people just talk about it? What happens to them when they get it? What they talk about when they beat it? Meagan O'Leary 25:40 Yeah, well, I can tell you that some people become the diagnosis, they become the prognosis. I get a little frustrated when I hear someone say it's not curable. Well, it's not curable, the way they define curable, but I can take you back to my Joe Dispenza conversation and the power of intention. And I never want to live my life with something uncurable. I would reframe that in whatever way possible. Yeah. For myself. Patti Dobrowolski 26:07 Yeah. What else? Good, because we've talked about this before. And I'm curious, like, so if somebody stuck in that mindset, you know, when people give you a diagnosis, and they say you're only have four months to live, I remember they said that about my mother. We never told her that. We never told her that they had said that because we're like, yeah, they don't know, they really don't know. And so she lived longer than that. And who needed to know that right? Meagan O'Leary 26:34 Yeah. Well, they Nasha Winters that I was mentioning I study with, she had ovarian cancer was given very little time to live. She was really sick. And she's 50 years old. She's still with us today teaching everybody what have worked with 1000 people and then teaching others how to have the right conversations around your terrain in your body. And, you know, the other pieces is as you're sitting there, around the beachball, again, talking to the oncologist, and they're giving you the path forward to do your research to understand and, and not Facebook research, you know, I love when I go to Facebook, and someone says, Hey, I've read this diagnosis of cancer, what supplements should I take? And I always say, well go get your blood tested and tested and understand what you need. You don't need what I took, or you don't use oils took you need to know what you need, you know, and you know, for me, when I look back on this, I needed to get more connection with my community, I need to get more connection with myself, I needed to have the right boundaries, I needed to sleep more. And so the sense what I put forward to both people get really clear what you need. And don't get so stuck in the prognosis of it all. Yeah, because even if you have a day to live, that's a day, you how are you gonna have that to be the best day you've ever had? Does that answer your question. Patti Dobrowolski 27:47 Yes. And I was thinking too, there's something about belief, right? And so you in a way, you always set your self up for success by what you believe. And that is something that I know to be true for you is that, you know, you rarely doubt yourself unless somebody says something and you think what, you know, but you really have been very forward moving, in terms of your career, and also in terms of your health, like you're not passive at all. And I think that's part of making good changes not being passive, realizing that everything, without exception is here for you to grow from, right. And so grow was so when you think about that whole trajectory of what you went through, what did you learn? What did you learn from it? What was your big aha? Meagan O'Leary 28:43 Well, that curiosity is the way forward, that you really need to embrace knowledge, you know, learn the things, if you didn't learn biology, learn some biology, so you know what people are talking about. Don't just hand anything over to any one doctor. And doctors are people too. They have their own limitations. And not every doctor knows nutrition. And so create that right team for yourself, integrate perspectives from as many people as you possibly can. And don't get stuck in the dogma don't get stuck in your own beliefs. You know, my belief was that I could get better and I had a vision of what better looked like. But I continue to ask questions, you know, am I making the right decision? Let me look at all sides of the story. And then continue to adapt is as things change, as there's new information, then continue to adapt for sure is you notice things before? Patti Dobrowolski 29:33 Yeah. And when you think about so people that are listening, who want to be a better leader or want to pivot in their career. I mean, you're the consummate change maker. That's what's true. It's like when you feel like this is boring. I'm done with this. You move on and what would you say to someone who feels that way, but isn't quite sure how to make that leap? What would you recommend to them that they think about and consider and then do. Meagan O'Leary 30:00 In this may be a little bit different than you're thinking about, I'll say, you know, at Microsoft, it's been as much about my network as anything else. Yes. Like who I know. And hey, hey, I'm looking around, what's the next thing? Give me ideas. And it's always through the connections that I find the next thing. Patti Dobrowolski 30:17 Now, so your network is everything, right? Network is everything. Meagan O'Leary 30:21 It's everything. I thought, my smart my brain was everything. When I was 23 year old. I was kind of a pain in the ass. Actually, I'm in a different place. Now. I'm like, oh, I need other people. Yeah, people. Patti Dobrowolski 30:34 Yeah, network is everything. Well, if you were to just tell us a little bit about what you're reading right now, or what are you into right now so that we can get a glimpse into what the future is? I know you're writing again. So you're going to write a book that's going to happen. But what are you reading? Meagan O'Leary 30:52 I'm reading Eric Goodmans book that just came out. He is the Foundation guy. It's about a little bit about foundation training. It's about pain, about cannaboids. And the cannabinoid system, a little bit about THC, interestingly enough, and he's interviewed in his stories about a lot of people that he worked with over the years. So I'm reading his book, it just came out, I think about four weeks ago, I'm going to meet him at the end of the month, when I go for the training, the foundation training I was mentioning to you. And I'm reading another book off to share it with you. It's about movement. So I guess where I am in this whole journey right now, whereas it was in a body, as in a mind is really movement? How do I move my body? And how do I move things through my body? It's really kind of where I am. Patti Dobrowolski 31:34 It's incredible to me that every time I talk to you, you have done something amazing and new, that you've learned something that like a totally different health hack, or something that you're exploring to see, what does this do? How can I use it? So when you turn your practice on, you turn Microsoft off and this practice on, it's going to be incredible for people that need help. And you know, you told me at the very beginning, you talked a little bit about a podcast that you had done. Can you say a little bit more about where people can find that? We'll put it in the show notes as well. But what's your podcast about? Meagan O'Leary 32:16 Yes, with an ageist magazine, a gentleman named David Harry's Stewart started this. He's a photographer. And he's now a bit of a journalist. And so he interviewed me, he and I met through similar calls, similar way that I met you. And he and I started talking to us. Let's do a podcast. I go. That'd be fun. So we just did last week came out yesterday. There's a My birthday was this week, too. Yes. Okay. Patti Dobrowolski 32:39 Happy birthday! Meagan O'Leary 32:40 I can't remember I told you that. So that podcast goes through everything that I've done soup to nuts on. It takes a while to go through it like the red line around a cold plunge tub. And just I go through all of it there. So it's with a just magazine. Patti Dobrowolski 32:55 Okay, we'll look for that. That's fantastic. Well, I can't wait to see what you've come up with. And I know that the next couple of years are going to be very exciting, because we're going to hear a lot more from you and your story. So everybody, you know the drill, just follow Megan O'Leary, you can find her on LinkedIn. But there are a bunch of other places you can find her in the show notes. So follow her and I just can't thank you enough for being here today and sharing your story with me and all the things about how you became who you are today. I know everybody's gonna want to hear the story, especially but you're curing yourself. So thank you so much for everything today. Meagan O'Leary 33:33 And I can talk to you forever, by the way, so Patti Dobrowolski 33:37 I know so we'll bring it back. Oh, do it that way. I can't wait. Okay, everybody, you know the drill. If you liked the podcast, pass it on to your friends. And until next time up your creative genius. Thanks again, Megan. Thank you. Patti Dobrowolski 33:54 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolaksi and the up your creative genius podcast. That's a wrap.

A native of Raleigh, North Carolina, Joni Wickham and her indisputable southern accent arrived in Kansas City almost 10 years ago after leading initiatives within state and federal government as well as advocacy organizations. In her eight years with the mayor's office—the majority of them spent as Chief of Staff—Joni has proven herself as an accomplished political strategist, communications expert, and organizational leader. She directed public policy initiatives, communications tactics, and administrative decision-making during her tenure, all while promoting women's leadership and empowerment issues. An artful negotiator, Joni helped steer Sly's major development projects in Kansas City while raising the city's profile at the national and international levels. Her front-row seat at city hall shed light on how local government is still very much a man's world, and this motivated her to create a first-of-its-kind women's empowerment initiative, which has been implemented in several major cities. Prior to her time at city hall, Joni worked with the American Federation of Teachers, the Missouri Department of Transportation, and in the office of Missouri Secretary of State Robin Carnahan. While a student at Meredith College, where Joni received her Bachelor of Arts in political studies, she studied abroad in St. Petersburg, Russia. An accomplished alumnus of University of Missouri where she earned her Masters of Arts in political science, Joni was the recipient of the 2019 University of Missouri Truman School of Public Affairs Mel Carnahan Public Service Award. Joni is the author of the best-selling book titled, “The Thin Line Between Cupcake and Bitch: Taking Action, Driving Change and Getting Results.” Timestamp 2:12 How Joni started her life and her journey into education 7:26 Writing a speech, feeling like an imposter and receiving life changing advice 10:36 Working with Secretary Carnahan and mayor elect Sly James 12:16 Leadership styles and becoming Chief of Staff 14:28 Importance of emotional intelligence 17:38 Using his power and voice to let other know it was unacceptable behavior 20:31 Wickham James Strategies and Solutions 22:57 What inspires Joni 23:51 Joni's StrengthsFinder qualities 27:36 Being results oriented 39:15 Joni's fun and personal future Social Media Facebook https://www.facebook.com/wickhamjameskc/ Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/joniwickham/ Website https://wickhamjames.com/ Books - The Thin Line Between Cupcake and Bitch https://wickhamjames.com/what-we-do/books/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars, welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Patti Dobrowolski 00:39 I am so excited today because I have Joni Wickham here. She is originally a native of Raleigh, North Carolina, where she spent 10 years leading state and federal government initiatives. And then she moved to Kansas City where she spent eight years in the Kansas City Mayor's office with Sly James, who is amazing. She's a political strategist and organisational leader, a communications expert, and she's been a recipient of the 2019 University of Missouri Truman School of Public Affairs, Mel Carnahan, Public Service Award, that is incredible, but not just that one more thing. She's a best selling author of the book, The Thin Line Between Cupcake And Bitch. And let me just say this book is killer. You have to get it right away. Joni, welcome. I'm so happy you're here. Joni Wickham 01:33 Hey, Patty, I'm so happy to be with you today. Thanks a bunch for having me. Can't wait for the conversation. Patti Dobrowolski 01:38 Oh, me too. And so for those of you that are listening, you know, she's getting over strep throat, she didn't have COVID. So if she starts coughing, then just know that I'll do filler in there. But thank you for being here, especially on the tail end of that. So I hope we make it through. I know that we will. So first, okay, number one, you got to tell me your story. Tell the listeners who you are and how you got to Kansas City and into Sly James office doing that work with him, which I'm sure is a story unto itself. So tell us where you came from. Joni Wickham 02:12 Okay, happy to do that. So you may detect a little bit of southern accent. Yeah, yes, I am originally from North Carolina. And I grew up in rural eastern North Carolina, in the middle of a tobacco field as they do. Yes, yes. My mother found out that I was coming along when she was only 14 years old. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, for sure. And her parents who helped raise me, never learned to read and write? To this day, still struggled with literacy. And so when she brought me home to the hospital, she brought me home to this tiny trailer in the middle of a tobacco field. And that's where I lived with her little brother, and my grandparents. And I always open up kind of my journey by going way back there. I'm all the way back there. Patti Dobrowolski 03:03 I'm older than you are. So don't even start. Joni Wickham 03:07 But I go way back there. Because that origin story, if you will, really informed my professional life and all the reasons why I wrote the book. So grew up very poor, and was very much raised by my grandparents. Not because my mother was an absent mother. But because she made the decision not to drop out of high school when she became pregnant with me at 14 in high school. Yep, he worked two jobs, in addition to going to high school to make sure that I had access to things that she and honestly, a lot of people around us never had access to, including high quality pre K, which we'll get to in a minute. And so my grandparents had a lot to do with my formative years. Patti Dobrowolski 03:50 Raising you. Joni Wickham 03:51 Yeah, raising me. Yeah. And I include my biological father's parents in that too. I have never had much of a relationship with him. He's been in and out of my life quite a bit. But his parents were very front and centre in my life as well. And so you got this baby, being raised by grandparents. Yeah. And it really informed the way that I looked at the world. Neither of my grandparents, neither my mom's parents or my dad's parents had high literacy skills. And so I often found myself reading the newspaper to them or reading whatever. I mean, sometimes literally, the menu at a restaurant or something. Yeah. And definitely helped them navigate through life. For instance, I remember having to fill out a lot of paperwork when they went to the doctor's office because they couldn't do it. I remember helping them look through the paperwork when my grandparents finally had saved enough money for a down payment for the trailer that they still live in. And so having that relationship with them, and having that experience of helping these older grandparents navigate life as folks who were functionally illiterate, but very hardworking. My grandparents worked every day. My maternal grandma got up at four o'clock in the morning and went work the breakfast shift at Hardee's for like 35 years. So we're not talking about late oh, no, no. And I credit my work ethic a lot to them. Patti Dobrowolski 05:15 Yeah, I bet I bet me too. I do. I came from my grandmother was an immigrant from Poland, and so worked as a seamstress. So, you know, my father, he was really hard working. And that was instilled in all of us. And so I think that really, it is part of the DNA when you come from that background, no matter how educated they are, right? Yeah, Joni Wickham 05:36 There's no doubt. I mean, you don't have to have a PhD to have strong work ethic. Yeah. And so anyway, to make a long story a little bit shorter, at least, I was able to have access to a lot of things like a high quality education that the majority of my family never did, I was able to go to a teeny tiny all Women's College in Raleigh, North Carolina called Meredith College. Fantastic. Where Yeah, where I was largely for the first time surrounded by women who had professional aspirations. And I was surrounded by a network of strong women who wanted to do something with their life. The environment was perfect for me, because the professors and staff really wrap their arms around the women there to help make sure they had all the support that they needed to figure out how to lead the world. And so I was able to get an internship within US Senator John Edwards. Oh, wow. Very cool. Wow. Quite the fellow I learned a lot during those years, a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 06:37 I bet. Joni Wickham 06:37 And one of the most profound experiences when I was working in that office, was in the very early days, I was asked to write a speech, we were very, very busy, the staff didn't have time to write the speech on tobacco regulation, which was a big deal for where I came from. So they asked me to write this speech. And I really kind of leaned on my personal experience and my grandpa's experience as a tobacco farmer when I was writing it. And I submitted it, and I had so many feelings of imposter syndrome. One of the things I write a lot about the book and submitted it thinking, Oh, my gosh, this is going to be I'm gonna bomb this. Within a couple of hours, the senators chief of staff came out and said, hey, the senator wants to talk to you, you got a second I thought, Oh, no. Joni Wickham 07:23 I'm getting fired! Oh, yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 07:25 Oh, my gosh. Joni Wickham 07:26 So I go into his office, and he sits me down on the couch. And he looked at me and he goes, you and I don't know each other very well. But I need to give you a piece of advice. And I thought, okay, here we go. Get fired. Yeah. He said, this speech that you wrote is one of the best speeches that anyone in this office has ever produced for me. And he did it under a lot of stress with not a lot of time. And he said, I could tell that you didn't expect your product to be that good. The people around you didn't expect your product to be that good. And so I just want you to know that you're probably going to be underestimated a lot throughout your life, his words, because you are a petite, cute, female with a southern accent. And so you can either use that to your advantage, or you can, frankly, be bitter and pissed at the world. It's your choice. Figure out how you want to deal with this. Wow. And while that was a really uncomfortable conversation, I'm not kidding. It was life changing. Because throughout my career, those words have been so true. So true. I have underestimated my own abilities, which leads other people I think it gives them agency to underestimate. Patti Dobrowolski 08:35 Of course, of course it does, right. Yeah, you project that and then it shows up, right, for sure. Joni Wickham 08:41 And so fast forward a few years, I have gotten a master's degree at University of Missouri, Columbia and started working at the state capitol in Jefferson City for then Secretary of State Robin Carnahan, and really had a lot of sometimes frightening, but really impactful experiences with a lot of men in Missouri State Government. And I learned a lot watching Secretary Carnahan about what it means to be a strong woman who's committed to their leadership style and to getting things done. And I write a lot about those. Patti Dobrowolski 09:13 Yeah, you do. You talk a lot about leadership and how important it is for you to identify what your leadership style is. And why do you think that's so important to know your leadership style, you talk about it in the book, but I want you to say a little bit about it here, because it really informed who you've become. Joni Wickham 09:31 Right? Well, when we are really clear on our own leadership style, it helps us lead other people because you have to figure out how your leadership style impacts the outputs of others, how it either helps or hinders their own personal growth. Because organisations don't achieve things based on one people or one person. Organisations achieve things based on teamwork. And so you really have to know how you can best lead everybody in the team. And oftentimes that starts with understanding your leadership attributes. And frankly, sometimes your leadership deficits because we all have, right? We're all people. Patti Dobrowolski 10:09 Yeah, I can't imagine being in that environment because it can be scary. And you know, I know for myself in working at the C level, sometimes I'll be in situations while I think, ooh, this is not going well here. So what can I do to step up and make sure that I'm in integrity with what I believe in this room, and then help the conversation go further. So you work there. And then how did you come in contact with Mayor Sly James. Joni Wickham 10:36 So networking is everything in politics, it's everything in a lot of sectors, but it's particularly everything in politics. And so some of the folks who are working on Secretary Carnahan campaign were also connected with then mayor elect Sly James campaign. And so I got a phone call. And the individual asked me if I'd be interested in going to Kansas City, to interview with this guy named Sly James, who had just won the election for mayor. And my first question was, who is Sly James? I had never, I had no connection to him. I basically observed the, election only because I worked in state government. And so a lot of the State Representative state senators were talking about it. So I had only vaguely observe the election. So I had to do a little bit of research to figure out who this guy was and what he was now. Yeah. And I was blown away, you've met him. So you'll appreciate this. I was blown away at his leadership style, and his very bold visions for the city, and for his kind of no nonsense approach to getting things done. So here I was, I had worked in federal government and state government, both of which are often bogged down with partisan BS. Yeah, Patti Dobrowolski 11:47 I was gonna say, just as round around and round the mulberry bush, really in a way. You know, you just sometimes never get anywhere with that. Yeah, yeah. And Sly James is not that way at all. You know, let's get in there and get it done. Joni Wickham 12:01 Right. Yeah, yeah, I told him more than once. Like, if there's a brick wall in front of him getting something that he thinks is going to benefit the city, he will run through it multiple times. He is like all getting things done, which is in great alignment with my view. Patti Dobrowolski 12:16 Now. Yeah, I was gonna say, that's how you are to there's just no BS about you, you're gonna get something done. And that's what has, I think, created your reputation in Kansas City, which is really high. It's amazing. People really have a lot of great things to say about you. Joni Wickham 12:32 Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Yeah, so we really hit it off in our first meeting. And it ended up being the start of a very long partnership. I worked in his communications shop for a couple years before he appointed me as second Chief of Staff, and I was Chief of Staff for almost six years, which is way too long to have. Patti Dobrowolski 12:55 I'm sure I'm sure. When you think about that. And you think about there's a place that you start to write about this idea of banishing self doubt and overcoming fear. You know, how did you step into that role of Chief of Staff? You hadn't done that before? You'd been writing before? But what did that entail that you had to learn? Joni Wickham 13:14 Yeah, great question. I had not served in the role as Chief of Staff before, I had served under several different chiefs of staff in the different political organisations that I had worked for. And so I had observed different leadership styles and different ways to get the job done. Several different things I had to quickly learn, one of which was managing people who I previously had had a lateral relationship with people who were my colleagues, my friends, yeah, dynamic shift. When you become someone's boss, no matter how good friends you think you are. And I also was fairly young at the time and found myself having to manage folks who are older than me. Often men having to manage issues and projects with men who were older than me in they had to take direction from me, which was new for them. Patti Dobrowolski 14:06 Yeah, that's our dynamic right there. Joni Wickham 14:08 Yeah, right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 14:11 Yeah. So that was part of it. So you have to be pretty strong in yourself in order to do that, but what we're talking about really is understanding how to win other people over so that you can get your agenda through right. So you must have a high woo strength. Joni Wickham 14:28 I hope so. Yeah, it what you're talking about is emotional intelligence. Something that I wrote about in the book, and emotional intelligence is when you can manage your own emotions and the emotions of others to inform thinking and action. It's really important for strong leaders. Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 14:45 And so when you took that role on you didn't expect to be there for six years, but what did you find to be the most challenging? So one of it is that you know, you've got these people that need to take direction from you, but what else did you find in dealing with the community and trying to move policy through what kinds of things were difficult. Joni Wickham 15:05 It is always difficult, I think, to be strategic. When everyone wants a piece of your time, everyone thinks their priority should be your priority. And when you have daily, I mean daily, multiple crises coming at you. And so I had to learn and had to help the folks around me make sure that we always kept our eye on the prize, that was something that we always said, to make sure that even though we were dealing with 30, hot potatoes at once, the mayor had a very specific agenda. And we needed to figure out how to get that agenda implemented, while dealing with all the noise around us. The other thing that I had to learn to navigate, frankly, was gender bias. There aren't a lot of female Chiefs of Staff for big city mayors across the country. And I happen to become Chief of Staff shortly after giving birth to my daughter. And I'll never forget, I was making calls to different stakeholder groups to let them know that I was going to be taking over as Chief of Staff and I was coming back from maternity leave. And one of the reporters that I worked with very often said to me, Well, how are you going to do your job as a young mom? And I thought, well, that is an interesting, wow. You know, it's not like my brain dies when I don't get a function, you know. And so that was something that I had to learn how to navigate, in a way with emotional intelligence. Because it's so hard to just as the senator said, be bitt er and mad at the world when we face Patti Dobrowolski 16:32 Yeah, bitter or better, right? You want to be bitter or better? Joni Wickham 16:36 Yeah, but that doesn't sit well with my personality. I don't like negativity, it takes a lot of energy out of me. And so I just decided not to deal with it in that way, and to use my role to try and effectively advocate for women in other leadership positions, and to show other women that it's possible. I also was very lucky to have a very strong ally, mentor and supporter in the mayor, who used his power and his voice, every opportunity, he had to make sure people knew that I deserved the role that I had. And that opinion matters. Patti Dobrowolski 17:14 Yeah. And you write about this story of you going into a meeting, and that there wasn't a chair for you say a little bit about that. What happened in that experience, because this is a typical experience that we hear about. I was just in a meeting last week with Dina Perot and she was describing a very similar thing when she came into working with the City Council in Oregon. So tell the story about what happened. Joni Wickham 17:38 Sure. So I waddled literally waddled about eight months pregnant into this economic development symposium that I had coordinated for the mayor, I have been working on this is extensive coordination. Patti Dobrowolski 17:50 This isn't just like, you know, week's worth of work. You've been working on this for a long time. Everybody knew who you were right? Joni Wickham 17:57 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I had spent probably a couple months working on this symposium, making sure all the stakeholders were briefed on what the mayor wanted to get out of the symposium, making sure the mayor knew who the stakeholders were that were going to take part in this discussion, what their perspectives were, so he could properly navigate those dynamics. I had to work with the media, like I was pulling this thing together for like, two months, definitely. And so I walk into this symposium with the mayor. And there were probably if I remember correctly, 15 to 20, older white gentleman there who were participating in this, and not a single one of them thought to save me a seat at the table, literally, at this big conference table where the symposium magic was gonna happen. Exactly. And I just remember thinking, lots of words that I won't say on your podcast. But, but it was very clear that none of them had ever considered that I actually belonged at the table in that conversation. But the mayor did. And he noticed this very quickly when we walked into the room, and I write my book that he was known for making a strategic spectacle when he needed to in order to . Patti Dobrowolski 19:09 That's right, make a point. Joni Wickham 19:11 And he did, and he did and none of those older white gentleman who were part of that debacle treated me that way ever again. Yeah. And it's because the mayor was willing to use his power and his voice to let them know that was unacceptable behaviour, and that they were going to respect me. Patti Dobrowolski 19:31 Yeah, and I love this because you talk about the difference. In your book, you talk about a sponsor, right versus a mentor and sly being a sponsor and Gabriela Schuster talked about in an earlier podcast, she talked about being an ally, you know that men in the environment need to be an ally and they need to demonstrate in such a way that it's memorable so that everyone else in the room like it, they wake up, boom, it's like the water challenge, right? water bucket challenge. So that wakes them up. so that they know, you know what the next step is now for you. So this is what you did. And you did this with Sly, but then you went out on your own now and you wrote a book and and so I want to know what what's happening now what are you doing now? And what excites you now? Joni Wickham 20:16 Yeah, thanks for asking. So about a year before Mayor James was term limited, he was term limited in August 2019. So we got to miss all the crazy pandemic. Patti Dobrowolski 20:25 Thankfully, that would have been you managing all those details. You know, it's true. Oh, yeah. Joni Wickham 20:31 So about a year after he was term limited, we started thinking how we might be able to continue working together outside the mayor's office, as we've talked about, our values are very much aligned. Our personalities are very compatible. We kind of see the world, not in an identical way, because we were very different people, but in a very compatible way. And our skill sets our expertise are also very compatible. And we felt like as a team, we had already accomplished so much in the mayor's office, but that there may be something else that we can accomplish together. So we launched our consulting firm, Wickham James Strategies and Solutions. I'm the Wickham. Patti Dobrowolski 21:14 Real quick, meaning your you're gonna get everything going right at the start. Joni Wickham 21:18 It really kind of throws some people for a loop that my name is first because he has always been so front and centre for all of our efforts for so long. That was his idea, by the way, not mine. Yeah, credit where credit's due. Exactly. Yeah. And so we've launched our firm that does government relations, strategic communications, public policy, consulting, a little bit of political consulting. And then Sly is also a very accomplished mediator. So he gets called by clients to help mediate tricky circumstances. And we have some books out. Patti Dobrowolski 21:48 His book came out to right at the same. Yeah, because I have a copy of that as well. So yeah, Joni Wickham 21:53 Yeah, The Opportunity Agenda is one of his books that he wrote with our friend, Winston Fisher. And then the passion for purpose is also another one of his books. And so those books give us a platform for public speaking engagements as well. And so we've really found that we have been able to use our skill sets and collaborate on mission driven work. We love working with clients who have missions that are near and dear to our heart, and who have problems that we can help solve. Patti Dobrowolski 22:21 Yeah, so what would be one of those missions that's dear to your heart. Joni Wickham 22:26 So we do a lot of work in women's leadership, racial equity work, we have several clients in the climate change and sustainability space. We also do a lot of work in economic development, those sorts of issues. Patti Dobrowolski 22:39 Yeah. And so of those things, what are you excited about, like, what gets you up and you think, Oh, this is going to be amazing. I'm going to learn a bunch of things. This is, you know, going to launch whatever X, Y and Z in the community or beyond. So what do you see as something that's really inspiring you? Joni Wickham 22:57 That's a great question. I am really inspired by clients who want to take an innovative view at how to either do things differently or solve their problems. I love working with people who aren't afraid to try different approaches, and who are brave, and have you ever heard the expression that it's best to fail fast. Patti Dobrowolski 23:21 Of course. Joni Wickham 23:23 I love that. I love that mindset. And so that's kind of a glimpse into projects and client work that really excites me. Patti Dobrowolski 23:30 Yeah. And I think well, and it's a good place for you to be because your whole way of thinking is really innovative. In my opinion, you're looking at what's coming next. So you're strategically thinking about it. So what's your strengths finder profile? What are your buckingham you talk about the strengths finder in the book, so I want to know what are your top strengths? Joni Wickham 23:51 Yeah, I love Strengths Finder. Learner is one of mine. Okay, so she's been researching. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And pulling facts and figures together. Of course. Patti Dobrowolski 24:01 Perfect for a strategist, I might say yes. And people behind the scenes, you're gonna want to know everything about them. Joni Wickham 24:09 Yeah, that's, yep. So learner and then responsibility. Patti Dobrowolski 24:13 Okay, good. That means you got great follow through and you're gonna have a checklist. Joni Wickham 24:17 Yes. Achiever. Patti Dobrowolski 24:19 Achiever. Oh, my God. That's a double checklist, right? Their responsibility means you're always going to follow through achiever. Like if you're married to an achiever, you know what achiever the best thing you can ask them is, what did you do today? Then they feel like yes, I did this and this and this. Fantastic. Joni Wickham 24:39 Yeah, I gotta tell you, my husband probably hates the fact that those are my top two. achiever responsibility. He probably hates it. Learner, achiever, responsibility, communication. Patti Dobrowolski 24:51 Yes. Joni Wickham 24:52 Yep, and individualization. Patti Dobrowolski 24:54 Okay, that's fantastic. So if you don't know what individualization that's where you actually look And what's great about that is that in the realm of where you were, you could make everybody feel like that their issues were the most important. That's incredible. What a beautiful combination for you in the roles that you played so far. So I can imagine that your clients feel that way about working with you, that you really get them and you're trying to meet their specific needs with whatever the bigger picture is. Joni Wickham 25:29 Yeah, I certainly hope so. I think it's really important, whether you're doing client work, or whether you're pushing a public policy agenda, whether you're trying to talk to voters or customers, it's important to meet people where they are, which is sometimes easier said than done. So I try to keep that in the back of my mind through emotional intelligence when I'm interacting with folks for sure. Patti Dobrowolski 25:50 And where do you think that you're growing right now? Where is the spot? You know, yeah, I always consider everybody's like a piece of coal. They go out in the world, and then people rub on them to get them to the diamond to shine through. So, when you think about yourself, right, I'm sure that there are places where you were rubbed through and you shine beautifully. But where are the spots where you feel like, oh, this is a spot in me that I can grow more here that you're interested in changing and growing. Joni Wickham 26:20 Patience. I have no patience, but I am working on it. I am trying, I have no patience, which is very interesting. Back to my husband, he's one of the most patient human beings on earth. And so I'm very grateful that he is the Yin to my Yang, in that respect. And I can learn from him on how to have greater patience for people. Patti Dobrowolski 26:45 Yeah, I think patience is really, it's hard to come by when we live in a world where everything is instantaneous. That's what's true. But if you grew up that way, I don't know about you. But when I grew up, I was impatient to be older. That was one thing because I knew that once I was older, I would have more control of the environment. And then I was impatient that when I was an actor that I would get on stage, you know, in a big way. And even now, I feel myself being impatient, sometimes with people's opinions. And the fact that we're going backwards in time around some policy instead of forwards where we should go, especially for women, and gender equality. It's unbelievable. I live in Texas, so let's be clear of where I am. Right. So you know, some of the policy here is like, wow, okay, here we are one more time around. Yeah. Joni Wickham 27:36 No doubt. Yeah, Texas and Missouri, where I am. Yeah, they're kind of fighting each other for backwards policies, that's for sure. But back to your point about patience, it's particularly important, I think, for I think you're this way to Patti, I would consider us results oriented individuals. So typically I write about this in my book, typically, organisations are made up of results oriented individuals or process oriented individuals, one is not better than the other, and both are needed. But what I have found is because I am so results oriented and impatient, that can be a dangerous combo. So I'm working on that. Patti Dobrowolski 28:12 Yeah, I think, you know, sitting in meetings where people and this is the thing I've been learning, you know, listen more, talk less. That's where I say to myself, listen more, be curious about that person, and why they're talking about that, because they're telling you something about them. And the fact that the rest of the room has the capacity to listen, I can't move them too soon, I need to move them soon enough so that we don't lose the attention of everyone in the room. But I want to make sure that I really get the point. And so I've been looking at and I don't know if this is true for you. But I have some preconceived ideas going into a room sometimes about the people there. And if I take time to kind of calm myself down before I go in the room, I'm a better listener there. And then I put a card in front of me, which I learned from some CEO somewhere. It said they could be right. It says in front of me and I put it on the table in front of me so I can see that. And I go yep, they could be right. Joni Wickham 29:12 Yeah, I need to do that, too. That's a great point. Patti Dobrowolski 29:15 Yeah, I love that now. Okay. So when you envision the future now, I'm all about future casting, right? I draw pictures to the future for people. So because I want them to get the picture in their mind and then act on it and draw a literal picture. Because when you draw one, right, that increases your chance of success by 42%. So I want to know, when you future cast your future, what do you see, like five years from now, you know, what would be the ideal state for you? And I'll write a few things down if you want, but we're recording it so then you can go back and listen to it five years from now. Joni Wickham 29:52 Well, that would be a fun exercise. So if I look five years into the future, what I hope to see is control over my life and my schedule and how I spend my time. Patti Dobrowolski 30:03 Okay, so you can have, you know, complete control over your schedule. Joni Wickham 30:06 Yeah. When you're the mayor's Chief of Staff, your schedule is not your own. And often you're not the one dictating your life. So for the past two years, I have really appreciated having greater control over my life. Patti Dobrowolski 30:16 Yes. So you're still working with Sly. So I'm just there's still some, you know, he likes to get things done. So yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 30:26 Okay. Good. All right, so that you'll have complete control over your schedule and the type of work you're doing. Okay, good. Yeah. And what else? For fun, I like to throw some mysterious things out. And I do this every day, I'll throw out some things like, surprise me, or like, if you could organically see something happened that was like, that would be the most amazing thing. Is there anyone you'd like to meet? Or have a conversation with? I mean, you put Michelle Obama in the front of your book. Yeah. So you know, is that part of your agenda? Joni Wickham 30:26 For sure, for sure. So that would certainly be one thing. The other is to continue to grow our consulting firm in a manner where we have the ability to say no to projects that aren't in alignment with our worldview. Yeah. With your values. Yeah. Yeah. And to projects that are going to relinquish that control over my schedule. Joni Wickham 31:21 That is a great question, huh? Okay, I'm gonna go fun in personal. Patti Dobrowolski 31:26 Okay, I love it. I'm ready. Joni Wickham 31:27 Hey, we are currently building a pool in my backyard. And my theory behind building this pool I have an eight year old daughter is that when she is older, our house is going to be the place that all of her friends want to come to, so I can keep my eyeballs on them. But also, I have amazing step children who are a huge part of my life in my orbit, and I want to be able to like have them and their kids, my grandkids, I want my house and my backyard to be full of those people. Patti Dobrowolski 31:58 Alright, so we're gonna see that just filled with life, all kinds of experiences and life and adventure for you. Because that's what kids bring and grandkids bring. They bring adventure and change. That's fantastic. I love it. All right. So I'm just throwing that out there. And I would encourage you to draw a picture of that. I'm just saying, This is really good and helpful. Joni. So next time I see you in Kansas City, which I have never met you face to face, I can be really fun. It'll be really fun. And there, we're gonna draw a little picture. So we have that for you to put out. And, you know, so for anybody that's listening, like you've had this amazing career, really, and you know, you've had a huge amount of experiences, you've made a huge impact in the communities you've worked in. And with the people that you've served, I would just say that right off the bat. But what would you say, you know, for people that are listening, like how can they begin to step into this without fear? So they banish their self doubt and their fear to step in? What tips would you give them? Joni Wickham 33:02 I think it's important when we're thinking through all of that, to get really clear on your values, what is important to you? What are the things that make you tick, then you can get clear on the very first thing, we talked about your leadership style, what is your leadership style, what are ways that you can tweak it to make it more effective? And then the last part of that, I think, is to really think through the proper ways, according to your values, your expertise, in a way that feels authentic? Where are those entry points where you can become a leader in your community? You know, a lot of people initially think when you think about leadership, I think running for office, I will never well, I won't say that. Patti Dobrowolski 33:46 I was gonna say take that back. Yeah, right away. Right away. Time. Joni Wickham 33:51 Yeah. I think elected office is an absolute great step for a lot of people, but it's not for everybody. And it's also not the only outlet for leadership. Patti Dobrowolski 33:59 Yeah, it's not the only way to serve your community. Exactly. Yeah. And so find a way to serve right, understand your values, get your leadership style, and then find a place to serve. And to make your mark and impact which you certainly have done and continue to do in the community. I can't wait to see what happens for your next I love that you did this podcast without knowing me much about me and that you took the risk to be here because you're incredible. And everybody you should pick up a copy of her book, The Thin Line Between Cupcake And Bitch, taking action driving change and getting results because you are totally results driven. Thank you for taking the time today to speak with us. Joni Wickham 34:40 Well, Patti, I have admired you from afar for a while and it's just a real treasure to be able to spend this time with you. Thanks for having me. Patti Dobrowolski 34:47 It's been awesome. Okay, everybody, you know the drill. If you like this, be sure to share it with your friends. Get everybody to listen to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast and follow Joni Wickham, all of her social media stuff will be in the show notes. And I can't wait to see what you're up to next. Joni. Thanks again, and we'll see you all soon. Patti Dobrowolski 35:10 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap.

On this week's episode of Inside Outside Innovation, we sit down with David Cutler, author of the new book, The Game of Innovation. David and I talk about how companies can integrate creativity and gaming into their innovation practices. And we'll discuss some of the best practices, tactics, and techniques that you can use in the process. Let's get started. Inside Outside Innovation is the podcast to help the new innovators navigate what's next. Each week, we'll give you a front row seat into what it takes to learn, grow, and thrive, in today's world of accelerating change and uncertainty. Join us as we explore, engage and experiment with the best and the brightest innovators, entrepreneurs, and pioneering businesses. It's time to get started.Interview Transcript with David Cutler, Author of The Game of InnovationBrian Ardinger: Welcome to another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. I'm your host, Brian Ardinger. And as always, we have another amazing guest. Today we have David Cutler. He is the founder and CEO of the Puzzler Company. He's a Professor of Entrepreneurship and Innovation at the University of South Carolina. And I have him on the show because he's the author of a new book called The Game of Innovation. Welcome, David. David Cutler: Thank you. It's so great to have the opportunity to chat with you. Brian Ardinger: The book is very visual. And I would love to be able to show pictures of that. Maybe we'll put some of that in the show notes. Let's start about your background and how did you get into this game of innovation? David Cutler: You know, so much of the work that I do is with different kinds of organizations, focused on all kinds of problems. Sometimes it's around culture. Or it's around trying to achieve certain results. But they're not sure exactly what to do. And so, we worked together to design some kind of a process or a game. And then often we'll work on multiple teams. Where they'll come up with these great ideas and figure out how to design it. Often it is run as a tournament, so the teams will compete. But sometimes we do fusion rounds where parts of this idea are combined with parts of another idea or have all different kinds of formats. Brian Ardinger: So, you've been working with a lot of different types of companies out there. What are some of the biggest obstacles that organizations face when it comes to innovation?David Cutler: So, I think when it comes to innovation or when it comes to change, most leaders that I know have one of two fundamental beliefs. Or one of two fundamental leadership styles. And unfortunately, as well-intentioned as they may be, they often do not work. The first is top-down leadership. This idea that, you know, I have the big ideas as the leader. That's my responsibility or maybe my inner circle. And over time, I'm going to impose any number of these big ideas upon the community. And look you or I, we might love those ideas as outsiders, but it turns out that most people do not like being told what to do. Especially if it's different from what they've always done before.So as a result, people digging their heels. They push back or maybe they retreat. Morale plummets and the likes. And usually even if the change is implemented, it's probably not going to stay. And you know, most of those top-down leaders suffer one of two fates. Either they're fired or maybe they're promoted to a place where they can torment more people. Brian Ardinger: Do less damage.David Cutler: The other, the other perspective is this idea of bottom-up leadership. If we want change that. But if we want innovation to happen, it's got to come from the grass roots. Come from the trenches. And the problem with that is that most people have no idea that they are responsible for innovating the future. I think most of us believe my job is to do my job well. The thing that was outlined in the contract. So, if I'm supposed to serve French fries where I'm supposed to be the accountant, it's not immediately apparent that I'm also responsible for re-imagining the future. Brian Ardinger: So, let's talk a little bit about why games are so important and, you know, that's obviously the topic of your book and it goes into great detail. And again, I love the book because it's very visual and it gives you a lot of tactical things that people can do. But why games? Why is that so important in this innovation space? David Cutler: You know, I consider any well-designed process to be a game. Whether or not it's particularly gamey. You don't need dice and concept cards in order to effectively solve problems. And yet there are many, many benefits of unapologetic gamification. Games unify communities behind a common and shared sense of purpose. There's accountability to rules and results. Puzzlers, as I call them, problem solvers are often much more open to thinking creatively and strategically in the context of a game. Finally, though, the problems we may be solving are really, really serious often. People are more likely to bring their best selves if they're really enjoying the process. So, games can be really fun. Even though they're hard, hard work. Brian Ardinger: So, let's talk a little bit about how you go about crafting a game. And the importance of the different functions and that, of how you should do this in real life. David Cutler: So, game is actually an acronym for a very, very loose and flexible system. So, game stands for G guidelines, an arena, M materials and E experience. It's not always the same. In fact, every time I design a game, or I encourage other people to do, I often want to mix things up, especially if you're working with the same community, but there are constant tools.So, it just very, very quick. Guidelines G guidelines is about the parameters of your game. So, what's the most important challenge you're trying to solve. What's the problem at the core of things? What are the constraints? The non-negotiables that may not be challenged under any circumstances. Constraints are necessary to innovation. And criteria, what constitutes success.So those are the guidelines. Usually those are written before the game has started. So, we really know what this game is all about. Arena is the conditions of play. It's about your puzzlers, period, and place. So, the puzzlers. Who is playing this game, what kind of people, what kind of experts do you need to best solve this problem?Period. How long do you have to solve the problem and place? Where are you going to do this? And sometimes, you know, the arena before you start, and then you have to build a game that works within those conditions. As sometimes you know, this is the problem we have to solve. So, then you build the arena that will work with it.And then materials are the tools of your game. Maybe you're in the physical world. Flip charts and crayons and prototyping materials. There are a whole bunch of things you can use online, in virtual games. And the experiences. What happens. What is the order of activities, in which order, for how long? Brian Ardinger: I think a lot of people when they have gone through these types of exercises and different creativity events, and that, it's oftentimes boxed as like a training thing. Rather than something that you can do on a regular basis. So can you talk through how some of these techniques can be applied on everyday decisions. What's the everyday process that person can use with this type of technique? David Cutler: To the point that you just made. I find sometimes that the people who use the word innovation the most, have never actually seen it happen in real life. It's a buzzword. They're not really sure what that means or what that feels like. When you are working with a team for the first time you mentioned about this being training. Sometimes it's actually a good idea to have them focus on the problem that is not the most important problem facing the organization.It's a skill like any other that can and must be cultivated. And if the first time you're ever working in this kind of format, you're also focused on something that you've been developing for 15 years and it feels very, very personal. It's hard to be open about it. So oftentimes the first time when working with an organization, the first game that they're playing is a good idea to identify something that resonates. But is not the biggest elephant in their particular room.Hopefully, you know, through a great game, there is a focus on both process and product. So, we want them to come up with exquisite solutions. But also to be developing transferable skills that they can apply each and every day. So, we always try and find a balance of those two things. And in the game of innovation offer many, many tools that can be applied under a variety of circumstance.Brian Ardinger: So, let's talk a little bit more about the book. It's a very collaborative effort. There's a lot of folks, it looks like from illustrators and that. So can you talk about the team and then talk about how the book came about. David Cutler: So, there are four of us who worked on this book. I'm the primary author. And then I had a partner that we always bat things back and forth. And illustrator and a graphic designer. There's a saying that teams are better than solace. At least when it comes to creative efforts. When you work collaboratively, you'll just come up with bigger ideas, then if you're working alone. Because it's not just, what's in your brain plus what's in my brain, but also the parts of our imagination. That could only be even touched because our thinking intersected. I've been running events for a long time where we bring in a graphic facilitator. Or someone, the woman who worked on book, her name is Patti Dobrowolski. And so, what she will do often when we're working with communities is instead of typing minutes on a computer, she will doodle things. She will draw things in real time. So, by the end of an hour or a day or a week, you have a visual representation of what happened.It is true that a picture paints a thousand words. That an image can say so much more, than words alone. We live in a very visual society. So many people, I hear what you're saying, but I just, I just need to see it. So, we got this idea of if we're going to put this in a book, why not just talk about innovation, but make it look like innovation.And hopefully the pictures help emphasize the message of the words and vice versa. When we started working, cause my other books are word books. And for this one decided that I wanted it to be visual. But it turns out that when you were working in a visual context, you may have a profound word or a word of historic significance. Or word with a great sense of humor, or wonderful relatives. Or whatever it is.It turns out too many words just looks ugly. In a visual context. So, I made a rule at the beginning of this that I was going to use short sentences, short paragraphs, short amount per page. And made Google docs, look, you know, one page on a Google doc would be like one page in a book. I'll never forget, I showed my work of concise poetry when I was starting this off to the illustrator. And she looked at it, and Patty said, oh, my God, David, you just go on and on.And I'm like what do you mean? There are no words that here. What are you talking about? As she went through and slash slash slash. And so that was the challenge. I mean, it really changed my life. And the opportunity. How do you still tell stories? Still have clarity, still be specific. But with no words. Or with very, very, very words. It was an amazing process. Brian Ardinger: So, let's dig into some examples of some of the experiences that you've had working with companies using these particular techniques. First talk through how do people get on board or how do you get people on board with this particular concept? Because it is different than I would say the typical way folks approach innovation sometimes. David Cutler: I think it's pretty easy to get folks on board once they just warm to it. You know, the notion of a game which just feels playful is appealing. But also, a little bit scary for a lot of companies that were pretty seriously and have their own traditions of collaboration. In fact, what I hear from, you know, so many organizations is that they are focused on problems. But usually what happens is they'll say, here's the problem. What should we do? Of course, conversation jumps from topic to topic on the back of a frog. You know, someone has an idea. Someone hates that idea. Someone else loves it. We tried that 10 years ago. Someone else says, yeah, we should do that tomorrow. And of course, all of those ways of approaching problems are essential to the process, but not at the same time.And so, one of the tools that we use, we call them Great Gaming Goggles. And the idea is that there are five lenses of problem solving. Each one is a different color. And it's paired with a word that describes the activity that starts with the same letter. And the idea is that when you're working with a team, and you design a game to make sure that you're using just one lens at a time. So, they're all important. But not at the same moment. So, you can figure out are we wearing in this specific task or question or activity. Are we wearing the purple lens, which stands for propose, which is about creative idea generation. Are we wearing the green lens, which is about gathering it's about detective work. About learning the way that the world is and that it has been. Are we focused on feedback wearing a blue lens? Which means boost is about positive praise for an idea. Or a red lens, which is ripping. Is about constructive feedback. Or are we wearing the orange lens, which stands for own. Are we here to make a decision? Almost every organization I've ever seen is really good at some of those steps. And this goes for individuals too. And has a tricky time with other parts of it. So, there are some communities where they have so many ideas, but they can never decide on anything. So, they have all these half-started projects. They haven't actually gotten that much done. And then you see the flip side where they're very, very decisive. But they keep doing the same thing over and over.And so the process often starts by just exploring. You know, where have you been and what do you need to do. And then trying to figure out what format would work the best for. Brian Ardinger: Do you find it beneficial for this type of process to start from a team level? Or can anybody create a game? What are some of the best-case scenarios that you've seen of how to actually start using some of these techniques with an organization? David Cutler: You know it's a skill like anything else that gets better with practice. So not only solving problems but designing problem solving games. I think it could be a good idea to start with writing shorter games. We call them sprints. Two hours or less. And to figure out, you know, in a standard meeting, most meetings are what, an hour, 35 minutes, 15 minutes, something like that?I see meetings as a huge, overlooked opportunity. I think so many of us look at meetings as this necessary, but unfortunate evil. The bane of our existence. The low point of our week. And I think that a meeting should be the high point of your week. Because that's when you convene your talent, and you have the opportunity to work on teams and solve actual problems.So, I think a good place to start, if you are leading a meeting, Instead of doing the normal information dump at worst. Or at best maybe question and answer. To really think through, okay, we've got a 60-minute framework. What could we do? What are the steps that we would go through? So that by the end of 60 minutes, we're not going to have a detailed prototype. But could we actually solve some small part of some problem in 60 minutes. And feel like we have achieved something. Brian Ardinger: Well, and going through that particular exercise, I would imagine if nothing else, it gives people a different sense of time. And when you start seeing progress in a short amount of time, it makes other things possible for the next 60 minutes that you sit down. Things along those lines. David Cutler: Nothing ever gets done without brilliant people, but not quite enough time. I can give you an example of a game that I love to do that's maybe you can do in 25 minutes. Something I call Disaster Storm. And it has four steps. So, remember, you're asking one question at a time. So, we start off Disaster Storming by asking a group, maybe we're talking about podcasts. Maybe you're saying, you know, I have a good podcast. You have a great podcast, by the way. We want to make it even better. Right. Maybe that's the thing. I want to do something that's really going to catch fire and generate a lot of buzz. So normally what happens is you say, well, what should we do? Well with Disaster Storming the first step, you know, we often say in brainstorming, there are no bad ideas. But what about terrible ideas?You know, there's something about an idea that just puts a pit in your stomach, where you have an emotional reaction to it. Whereas good ideas or bad ideas, you can be more neutral too. But awful ideas, borderline illegal ideas. They really get a reaction. So, what I'll often do, let's say we're working with a group of 20 people or 50 people, is to position different teams. You know flip charts around the room. And the first question would be to brainstorm. Maybe we say, I want you to brainstorm the worst possible ideas you can imagine for Brian's next podcast. Right. Maybe to do it, you know, while sitting on top of a landmine. Or a while streaking through the halls or right. You know, face-to-face right after you eat some garlic. You know, whatever it is, what are the worst possible ideas that you can come up with? That's the first phase.So, they're only doing one. Then I have them flip places in the room. So, they rotate, and they inherit a list of terrible ideas. The next task that could take place at maybe 90 seconds is to find the most offensive, most terrible one and put an X by it.The next step is to start, and then we go through a process of transforming that terrible idea into an extraordinary idea. How do you go from something? And often they're very, very close. It takes something that has that emotional pull to get you to think of other kinds of extraordinary things. And then we go through a process where they design that idea. They figure out what's the big idea on top. What are some of the wow-ables that happen underneath? And then they share their idea. And in 30 minutes or less, often we will get more incredible ideas that most companies have gotten after weeks of struggling with a problem and maybe coming up with kind of variations of what they've always done. And it's really exciting. Brian Ardinger: Very interesting. One of the things that I always talk to our guests about is, and I get asked about when it comes to innovation, is they totally understand that the creativity portion of innovation and thinking differently and that, but a lot of it comes back to, well, how do we measure if we're on the right track or how do we measure these outcomes that we're actually making progress and that. I would imagine you have this objection to overcome when you talk about games. It's like, well, it's fun and that. So, it can't be worthwhile. So how do you talk about measuring outcomes in this particular environment? David Cutler: In fact, that would be a great topic for a game. Like to figure out how do we measure success as we move towards this goal. Those kinds of benchmarks are actually marked in the game. So, we often use criteria. I was talking about guidelines and how we designed the guidelines because the challenge, constraints, and criteria. Criteria is by clearly articulating what constitutes success. We don't know what the solution is, but we know what the desirable outcomes would be. I would argue the opposite that so much of the time outside of a game context we haven't articulated what we need to be doing. Yeah. We want to make more money or have more customers or get more hits on social media. But how do you know when you reach more? A great game will be very clear about what constitutes success on the front end without prescribing the solution. And there are actually two ways to write up criteria. One is with a shortlist and the other is with a long list. So, the idea of a short list is to say, you must keep all the constraints in mind. You must solve this problem. But to be really successful, you achieve this criteria? And so, you'll have some way to measure it. A long list, the idea is sometimes what usually will have in a short list. It'd be like three or four or five at the most criteria items. Like bullet points that are very easy to understand. And a long list you might have 10 or 20. Or 30 different criteria. And the idea is to hit as many of them as possible. So, in a well-designed game, you actually know how successful you've been at the end, because you've already defined that before playing it. Brian Ardinger: That's very good. We're living in a hybrid world now. Obviously with, folks going back into the office and that. But a lot of these types of techniques and that, there's an advantage to doing them face-to-face and that. What's been your experience and how to use these techniques in a more of a hybrid world. Or in a world where we can't be face to face.David Cutler: You know I'm an innovator to my core. I am nowhere nearly as creative as COVID 19. You know, I never imagined a world in which we had to be 6 to 12 feet apart. We'd be wearing these masks and the likes. And I view it, of course, it's been hard on all of us. And had very, very serious consequences. But I view it as a worthy adversary.I have this viewpoint that when you hit a wall, when something goes wrong, how can you have it help you come up with even better solutions right then if you didn't have that obstacle that was there. And so that's been my whole perspective throughout COVID. How can this make us better? Obviously, there are benefits to be online as well as deficits, but that's tricky because so much of what we do is, you know, very tactile and the likes. So, we started really leaning into, especially Zoom is the platform that we've used the most. And it doesn't do anything. We played a game, and it was for about 50 people. We had six teams that were on there and of course, one of the things that's great about Zoom is when you're in breakout rooms, everyone can come back and at the same moment everyone's back.So, it takes them a little longer to go into their own room than if they were just sitting at a table. But if you're in a physical space at the end, you have to get people's attention two or three times. But on Zoom, it's just like, boom. They're back. So, I remember hearing afterwards from people who went there. And it was just amazing.We wanted to show them, how do you make Zoom exciting? How do you make it work? Cause it's just, it's not inherently good or bad. It's just different. It's just a tool. And I think what happened when we went online, unfortunately, is that so many organizations, what they did was they took the worst parts of in-person, like the lecture, and brought it online. While losing some of the best parts, like the ability to interact and have side conversations. And the likes instead of, you know, saying what can this tool uniquely do? So afterwards, some of the people on this game would call us up and they would say, yeah, so I was talking to some friends, and I said, what did you do this weekend? And yeah, I just got off an innovation game. We played; it was six hours long on Zoom. People like what six hours. That's crazy. That's ridiculous. How was that? Like, it was amazing. You know, we got so much achieved. More than I did all of six months before that. But we spent a lot of time. We didn't have any solutions, you know, with a good game, you don't know what the actual solutions will be. You just designed in such a way that great solutions are almost guaranteed because of the kinds of questions that are. But we had to think about, you know, in a room when there's a question, someone can raise their hand and you can go over, and you can clarify that's trickier on breakout rooms in Zoom.So, we had to figure out a system so that we would type up documents ahead of time. So, they always knew what the task was and how many minutes they had. Had that kind of clarity because there's no, you know, front white board, it was amazing though. For More InformationBrian Ardinger: David, I really appreciate you coming on Inside Outside Innovation to kind of share some of this stuff. I encourage people to pick up the book if they are at all interested in innovation and some really tactical ways to make some progress. So, the book is called The Game of Innovation. I encourage people to pick it up. If people want to find out more about yourself, David, or about the book, what's the best way to do that.David Cutler: The easiest address I can give is www.Puzzlercompany.com/book. And that way you'll find out information. There's a trailer for the book and some sample pages and a whole bunch of other information about solving problems with your team. Brian Ardinger: Excellent. Well, David, again, thanks for being on the show. Looking forward to continuing the conversation in the future. David Cutler: Thanks so much Brian.Brian Ardinger: That's it for another episode of Inside Outside Innovation. If you want to learn more about our team, our content, our services, check out InsideOutside.io or follow us on Twitter @theIOpodcast or @Ardinger. Until next time, go out and innovate.FREE INNOVATION NEWSLETTER & TOOLSGet the latest episodes of the Inside Outside Innovation podcast, in addition to thought leadership in the form of blogs, innovation resources, videos, and invitations to exclusive events. SUBSCRIBE HEREYou can also search every Inside Outside Innovation Podcast by Topic and Company.  For more innovations resources, check out IO's Innovation Article Database, Innovation Tools Database, Innovation Book Database, and Innovation Video Database.  We use Amazon Affiliate links for books.

Hoyin is a serial entrepreneur, his core passions lie in helping businesses to grow in a scalable way with software tools. Hoyin has over 7+ years of experience building remote teams and has worked with Fortune 100 companies like Nike, Best Buy, TJ Maxx, SunGard, Cardinal Health, and Kaiser Permanente. He is currently passionate about creating authentic conversations that drive meaningful relationships in the most human way possible with the help of technology. Timestamp 1:42 Backstory of Hoyin Cheung 3:53 The background of how Remo got started 8:13 The ups and downs in journey of building up Remo 14:37 Hoyin shares why he is excited about Remo 17:11 The challenges Hoyin faced while creating Remo 20:07 Hoyin's vision and mission 23:36 Tips on pivoting a business and the importance of being open minded Social Media Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/hoyincheung/ Remo https://remo.co/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars, welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius.  Today, I have really one of the brilliant thinkers of our time point, who's the CEO of Remo, one of my favourite online platforms. So if you don't know what Remo is, first off, you got to go there, and check it out and then come back and listen to the podcast because it is incredible. So let me introduce him. He's a serial entrepreneur, his core passion is really helping businesses to grow with software tools.  Now he's worked with some big brands, Nike and Best Buy and Kaiser before he developed Remo and got into this whole way of making creativity, authentic conversations, and meaningful connections for people in an environment, which is like a live conference room. It's amazing. There's different floors, you can double click on people and go meet them. It's so cool. So thank you so much for taking time to be in the podcast. Say hello. Hoyin Cheung 01:42 Hey, Patti. Well, first of all, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm super excited. I'm really looking forward to the podcast. So thanks for inviting me. Patti Dobrowolski 01:49 Yeah. So first off, tell us your story. Like how did you get into doing this, I know you work for big brands before this. But tell us a little bit about you growing up, and then how you got into doing software development, etc. Hoyin Cheung 02:03 Sure. When I grew up, like my dad was really into technology, like he bought, you know, those really MS DOS, Windows 3.1, like really old school computers. And they weren't very user friendly. But back in the day, I was always really interested in technology, my dad played like a really big role.  And then once on that, and so when I kind of grew up like an after growing up, but just going to college and always wanted to, you know, I was always interested in technology. And then I read a lot about businesses and startups. And you know, prior to 2001, there's always your voice started to hear about the.com and the.com, boom and stuff like that.  So I've always was interested in doing something. But at that time, I graduated, like after the.com Boom, and but I just didn't know what to do. After graduating. I worked at a bank before I did magic consulting for a while. And then it slowly moved towards technology. So when I was consulting, I was helping like large brands like Nike and all them.  These fortune 500 companies figure out what they wanted to do with their data centres, their infrastructure, their routers, like their AI stuff. Yeah. And at that point in time is when I was started introduced to remote working, because as a management consultant, like most of like my team members, and you know, everyone who I work with in my company, and with a client, we're not always we're flying everywhere, but we're also communicating through conference calls and everything. And so. Patti Dobrowolski 03:29 That's one of the most boring mediums in the world, the conference call, right? Hoyin Cheung 03:34 Exactly. And that kind of already started getting me into what the challenges were. Patti Dobrowolski 03:39 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 03:40 About communication. And so when I started coming on my own and developing my own ideas and trialling an error, one thing led to another and it eventually kind of led to remote, I can absolutely share the story as well. Patti Dobrowolski 03:53 Well, that's fantastic. I want you to share that piece. So you know, you grew up in a family where technology was normal to investigate that. And I think that the fact that you were solving a problem, right that you were having, because I know I mean, honestly, I trained in that environment. So I would like write people's names on a post it note and I'd stick them in front of me. So I imagined that they were in the space. Because otherwise how would I remember who was there? We able to call on them by name? So I love that. So then where did you get the idea for Remo? And then how did you develop it? Hoyin Cheung 04:28 Yeah, sure. So right after I left, the sort of traditional corporate job, I started to like develop different ideas. And I started developing remote teams as a way to be lean in a way to hire great people and finding great people. Patti Dobrowolski 04:45 They didn't have to leave their home. Yeah, yeah. Hoyin Cheung 04:48 I mean, at that time, like I didn't really call it remote working. I mean, at the time, I was just like, I'm just outsourcing or finding a contractor to kind of be you know, you know, just do work like it wasn't, you know, back in the day Prior to 2019, or 2020, it wasn't like remote work wasn't was a fringe trend really? Patti Dobrowolski 05:05 Right. Hoyin Cheung 05:05 So I started my businesses like that some more, some did end up landing on developing a social media SAS company, that's mostly Instagram, people with Instagram accounts. They're like, you know, small businesses, a lot of like lifestyle businesses, they wanted to increase their engagement and get more followers. And so my software helped them do that.  So with that I had 25 people that worked for the company at that time. And it was something that I started feeling the strain in having all 25 people work remotely, and not be able to connect actually lost a few people, because I couldn't maintain a good relationship, a connection with them, and people who were living like halfway across the world. Patti Dobrowolski 05:47 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 05:48 And so I then started to like, at some point, you know, I want to do something else I wanted to change and do something bigger than. Patti Dobrowolski 05:55 Just Instagram and things. Hoyin Cheung 05:56 Social Media software. Yeah, I want to do something a little bit more bigger than that. So I started to think about what were some of the challenges, and what was a long term trend that I wanted to go for. And I felt remote work is a long term trend, like I believe that eventually, maybe 10 years, or I don't know, maybe five, six years from right from 2019. People would be like, Yeah, okay, remote work. Patti Dobrowolski 06:21 But then the explosion happens, right? Hoyin Cheung 06:24 Yeah, little did I know, that was gonna happen like the following year. And so when we first created, we were trying to create a virtual office. So right, more for like, you know, trying to replicate those hallway conversations. Yeah, where you would have you would walk by someone? And how's it going? Like, oh, you know, how's your dog, how's your kid. Patti Dobrowolski 06:46 So the bonding, the bonding experience you wanted to so that people were actually having a real relationship, but in a virtual environment. Hoyin Cheung 06:55 You know, the serendipity, you know, the chance, you know, the luck of meeting people, I think that's really important in life, I can share a little bit more about that. But like, with that serendipity, I think it was really important for the human experience for the human condition. Patti Dobrowolski 07:10 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 07:10 And I felt that was really important replicate. So we tried, we built it, we try to sell it. And it was kind of like a classic, you know, startup tragedy, you know, because like, I interviewed the 20, people like 20, fully remote CEOs and ask them, What is your biggest challenge?  And they all said, you know, connecting with each other with the biggest challenge, right, like, Great, I'm gonna build that thing to help you to solve your top challenge, right? I built it and went back to all of them. And they did buy. Oh, I built this virtual office, it was like a map. So you know, just to share it with your audience. Like, imagine you're looking at a Google Map.  You press on the button where like, shows you where you are, it's like this little circle, yes. Imagined zooming all the way in into where you are, where you see yourself in a building and you zoom in, we can see the chairs and the tables. Yeah, your circle is sitting on a chair. Right. But it's not just a circle. It's your face is on that circle. Patti Dobrowolski 08:10 Okay, so you had like your own avatar, yeah? Hoyin Cheung 08:13 Yeah, exactly your own avatar. And if you clicked on a different table, your circle avatar would move to that table, and you would see the video streams of the people on that table. So it kind of replicated, like each tables, collected some conversation, and replicated that kind of dynamic of how conversations actually flow in real life.  We did that for virtual office, we then had the opportunity to basically like sponsor this virtual Summit. So it's just basically like, we call now these virtual conferences. It's like three days, you know, 10,000 people went through it. And I said, Hey, what about these virtual summits that they were pre-recorded? Okay, this is 2019.  Oh, yeah. Are you more supported videos, and you would attend the event, you wouldn't meet a single person, all you know, list of videos, and you just watch them one at a time? Patti Dobrowolski 09:03 Yeah, boring is that's terrible. That's not what a conference really is about. Because the most fun is when you go out on break, and you have food and you you know, or you randomly move to another table because you want to meet people. Hoyin Cheung 09:16 When we said, hey, you know what, don't do that. Let me like modify our product from a virtual office into a conference change. It repackage it a little bit. Same engineer repackage it. And said, you know, like this, make it like a real conference. And people kind of go through it. And you'd have live talks and chat with each other blah, blah, blah. And so, you know, after the conference, like it was so funny, we didn't sell a single virtual office. Nothing. It was like crickets. So like. Patti Dobrowolski 09:44 It's so truly entrepreneurial experience right here, what you're talking about, yes. Hoyin Cheung 09:51 100%. It's like, typical, like startup tragedy, and so that we asked them like, Hey, how's your experience? They're like, Oh, my God, the experience was amazing. was great, I can attempt to be more blah. Great. So, you know, we have this product called virtual offices like we would what?  I don't care about the virtual office. I want to host my event on that platform as a conference. Yeah. Remote conference. Yeah, as a conference, and I was like, Yeah, you know, but we're not a conference product. And when people started saying it more to me, I was like, Okay, maybe we have something here. You know, it was literally night and day. Patti Dobrowolski 10:26 Well, and then you had to pivot from this one product you had to this, this other product. So talk about that kind of a change between doing this Office product, which you probably had pretty dialled in to this other event platform. What happened then? Hoyin Cheung 10:42 I mean, because like one side of me was like, Oh, I don't want to give up on the virtual office. I just started, it's been a few months, like, have I tried enough? You know? Yeah, like, yeah, I don't want to be too wishy washy and jump around to too many different things.  Do you mean like, yes, I want to make sure that I gave some good punches before I change it up. Exactly. So I did some more testing. I sold a little bit more for another two months. But I also did more testing with the conference side. And I talked to more people and the traction kind of just kept on flowing, like it just floated downhill. Whereas the other way was like, uphill. Patti Dobrowolski 11:21 Against the against the wild. But it isn't that wild. Because when you think that this world that we're living in now, you'd still want that office environment. That's what's crazy about it. So you did this other thing, and Remo became the thing that launched really. Hoyin Cheung 11:36 Right, so Remo. So then eventually, I pivoted because I was like, why am I working so hard here when it feels so easy? Over here? Patti Dobrowolski 11:44 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 11:44 So I was just like, I'm just gonna go down the path of least resistance here. Yeah. Yeah. So you must have had a really slimmed staff at that point. Right. And then that must have really exploded what you had to do and become in order to meet the need. How did you do that? Patti Dobrowolski 11:48 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 11:48 And then I just decided to pivot. And when we started pivoting, the conversations became easier to be honest. Like, every time when I talked to someone, they were happy, and I was happy. And I just felt, I want to be depressed. I don't want to be No, you want to be happy, right? And so it felt right. I can't explain it. It just felt right.  People were sink, write things about the product. I didn't know how to monetize it. But I just did a lot of testing and just work with people a lot. Yeah, and this is prior to the pandemic 2019, by the end of 2019, remote work started to really catch on, like Silicon Valley was about it. And so is at the end of 2018, q4, and the time was just impeccable for Silicon Valley. And so the when it came when the whole kind of tsunami came from the pandemic, you know, we were just it gets in the right place at the right time.   Yeah, I mean, we had six people, like in February. And then we were making, like, $6,000 a month or something like that. In like, February, and then we broke even in April. And then like, we just had so many leads. So like I was I remember, just talking to people every single day, every day was like, I need a platform. Now. My Event is next week. Like it was like everyone's hands on fire. Patti Dobrowolski 13:19 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 13:20 And so it was just a blur. You know, it was just like, I was trying to sell as fast as I could. And people started coming in and working with us. And I was very lucky that we hired great people at the very beginning, made some really lucky moves. And that really just helped catapult us really, really far out for the rest of the year. So it was a good time again, you know, glad I just met the right people. Patti Dobrowolski 13:44 Yeah. And you know, you talked about this the concept of synchronicity. And, you know, for me, that synchronicity happened for you, when you realised, oh, the conference for 10,000 people was so much better of an opportunity. But you took advantage of that you still like played around within the other space, because you had invested so much time and I think that's one of the things that is so true. You know, we have our things we've birthed and we love them. And they're fantastic. But eventually, we have to like no, this thing is what's the thing that people really need? So how many employees do you have now? Hoyin Cheung 14:23 About 100? Patti Dobrowolski 14:24 Yeah, I thought it must be at least that amount, because and how many events do you host on Remo. Hoyin Cheung 14:31 Each day? It's like a round about like, the latest numbers is about like 12,000 events a month. Patti Dobrowolski 14:37 Yeah. Okay. So, if you're just, you know, think about this, from 1000 to a year later, two years later, right. 12,000 in a month. That's insane. But you've stabilised the platform and a lot of ways there are new always what I love about the way that you've run remote is that you always come on in Talk about the features, you know, you talk about what's new, you're always listening to your customer in such a great way. So what are you excited about? Because that's exciting to me that that all became like that. But what's exciting to you? Hoyin Cheung 15:15 So for me, like, my whole goal has always been, how do you create authentic conversations that build meaningful relationships. And that's been the mission that I've always had. And what excites me the most is being able to stretch the boundary of that continually, like, at the end of the day, Remo, I, in my mind is an experiential company, like we do help businesses, but we do some things that businesses don't ask for. And so some ways, we're kind of like a consumer product. Because consumer products, you know, a Steve Jobs was really famous, like saying, like, don't listen to the customer, like you have your own vision to create, because the customers don't know what good looks like. Patti Dobrowolski 15:54 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 15:55 And then. Patti Dobrowolski 15:56 Would you say that's true? Is that true for Remo too. Hoyin Cheung 16:00 So this is kind of how I think, the grand vision of what you're trying to build, yeah, that the customer won't know. Like, they won't know that the iPhone is like the best way of how it should look like like that core, like just innovation that has to be from the company from product, but the specifics of how they use it, whether what are they using it in their lives?  Is it matching the problems that they're working with those types of specific things, those the customers have to tell you, and those are things that you must listen, because those are the things that make their job easier, or, you know, optimise certain parts of it makes the journey and makes the whole feeling like overall like journey better.  That part you kind of have to listen to them. And so it's a mixture of both. But the only way to be innovative, in my mind is really from product and from the company itself. Yeah, customers won't tell you. They're like this really, really innovative kind of thing. They'll have some ideas, but those not necessarily are the ideas that you may want to pursue, like some of them. Yes. And some who may not be. Patti Dobrowolski 17:11 Yeah. Now, what do you think in this whole process of creating Remo? What's been the most challenging for you? Hoyin Cheung 17:18 To be honest, like, I think the pandemic I mean, it's a kind of weird thing to say, right? Because you would say, well, the pandemic was of help to me. Yes, it has. But I think also the pandemic has also made it challenging for us as a company to figure out how to plan and a longer time span and how to find a new normal and to build a sustainable business. Because think about it. The pandemic is something that is not sustainable. Right. We know it will go away. Patti Dobrowolski 17:48 Yeah, they'll revert back to some kind of hybrid event or right, right, exactly. It is Remo Right. Hoyin Cheung 17:57 Exactly. So for me, it looks like you are a ship going through a fog. You see these lights, fate lights, and you see multiple lights, but which is the light that you need to steer towards? Yeah, you don't know. Yeah, it's not clear. We're waiting for the fog to clear to see what lies ahead. And when you see Omicron we see all these new things coming up like yeah, it's prolonging the fog. Patti Dobrowolski 18:22 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 18:22 But really, we just want the fog to clear as quick as possible. Yeah, you know, yes, it did help us. But for long term sustainability, you know, remote is extremely aligned with everyone else in the world. It's not like, no, we want the pandemic that continues a weekend continue, like, you know, selling and all that kind of stuff. No, like, that's just not realistic. And so that, to me, is one of the hardest is actually honestly one of the hardest things. Patti Dobrowolski 18:48 Yeah, it's interesting. It's almost like you want to have the holodeck, right. So the holodeck so that you can go in there that anybody could go in there. And they could engage and play in a way that they could grab and use objects. And so somehow that VR quality, you know, you've created this kind of, it's a three dimensional because you actually are in there, and you feel like you're in this space, and you're engaging with people by zoom.  When you drop into this space, and you can move around in there, you can go out and see vendors, you can do all kinds of things. Right. But the main thing I think that is fascinating to me is that what will happen when things stabilise because they will, and then what will your brand look like then? Is that what's keeping you up at night? Hoyin Cheung 19:34 Yeah, I mean, it's fine to know what that future new normal looks like. Yes, I would say that that is something that is on top of mind because the customer that we had during the pandemic is a different customer after the pandemic. Yeah, think about it. We kind of have to pivot again. Patti Dobrowolski 19:52 Yes, yes. Hoyin Cheung 19:53 You have to pivot again. And so I think the journey never ends you know, like it doesn't end yet. We're not out of the woods yet. We had a great starts, we got a really great boost. But you know, the story hasn't ended yet. We're just going into another chapter. Patti Dobrowolski 20:07 Well, yeah, and I think that what's interesting to me is you came up with an idea based on a need you realise that wasn't quite the idea that this other thing was what people needed right now. And then the pandemic made it really clear that was the need that people had.  So no matter how big a group you're meeting with, you can meet in Remo, you know, it's not dependent on size. You can do it for large conferences, but you could do it for small meetings. Right.  So the other thing that is curious to me is when you envision the future for you as an entrepreneur, because you're the one that developed this, right, and so what I know about the entrepreneurial mindset is that we are always wanting to do the next new thing.  So when you think about the future for you, what do you envision, like in your world? What would you like that to be? Like? What would you like to experience, see, or grow in yourself as an entrepreneur? What's fascinating right now? Hoyin Cheung 21:04 Okay, so there's two things. I mean, from a experiential stamp, I can share with that, like, I think VR is definitely a future. I think it is a future that we'll eventually get to. But I think there's a lot of things about the human condition that we're not communicating yet. I mean, yeah, there's a ratio like that says 60% of communication is nonverbal. Yes, all body language. And right now, video doesn't really do a good job with that, like, I can see your head nod, I can see like your chest upwards, but I don't really feel Patti, you here. Patti Dobrowolski 21:43 That's right. Hoyin Cheung 21:43 Absorbing all those body language signals. I think I'm really interested in that. I'm passionate about that. Like, my goal is to how can because by the way, if you're in VR, you have the same problems. Patti Dobrowolski 21:56 Yes. Hoyin Cheung 21:56 But if you think about it in VR, if you created a 3D avatar that the challenge with 3D avatar is, if you're going to give me something 3D, you're trying to trick me, and it's trying to be photorealistic. My immediate expectation, yeah. Is that you better be really, really real. You seem that small. That's just a little bit off. Patti Dobrowolski 22:20 Yeah. Hoyin Cheung 22:20 Breaks the illusion. It makes the illusion. Yes. Yes. Micro gestures of your face. Yeah, a little bit odd. Or like they don't move in a natural way humans pick up on that, yeah, immediately just shuts your head and says, This is not real. Patti Dobrowolski 22:35 This well and your garden, that's what's happening is that you become it triggers that part of your amygdala, you're not going to engage in a way, right? Hoyin Cheung 22:43 And so for me, video is still the best way number one is actually super space. Number two is like, I think there's a lot of things that can be done through video through 2d, that easy, that can't be done. So that's technology.  That's just that personal standpoint. Like for me, I think it's continuing to like innovate and take risks, and be able to continue to find great things that really kind of flow and just do really well and just tackle like, different industry verticals, and just finding the right people to help do that.  Like, for me, it's a lot about having great conversations with people, finding people who have similar vision and share the vision that I have, and getting these people together to then go tackle these other use cases, these other things. That to me is exciting. That to me is like remote, not just for universities, or professional associations or corporates like you can go into other areas as well. That's kind of like. Patti Dobrowolski 23:36 Real world problems? Yeah, and big thinking and art projects and collaboration of any kind, right? Well, I love that. And so when you are thinking about, you know, or want to give advice to anybody who's listening, who might feel like, Oh, I'm caught in an entrepreneurial trap right now, and I need to pivot out of it. What advice would you give them? Hoyin Cheung 24:00 Yeah, I mean, roller coaster is real. And I would say, you have to be really open minded, in thinking different ways that whatever you're doing, yeah, it could be someone else or something can find use for it, and set yourself a timeline. Like give yourself a certain amount of time to discover enough. And if you cannot find that within that timeframe, then it might be better to then consider something else.  There's nothing wrong with giving up on something. As long as you gave it enough time. Really, it's more of like, what did you learn so you can plan again on the next thing and just keep trying, sometimes you have to try several times. Like it's like, you know, playing the guitar, you know, you try to play the guitar and one song the whole way through the first time you play the guitar, that one song, you're not going to be able to play it the whole way through, you're going to fail several times playing through that song.  Just got to do it several times until you can play through the whole song. So you got to go through it several failures in some sense. So failure should be expected. Yeah, excess is unexpected. It's like, oh, wow, look, I figured it out. Like, oh, this is nice. Like that is what it should be more of like be optimistic, but also have some realism as well. Patti Dobrowolski 25:16 I love that. And I think that that, to me, is what your whole company is about. And it's one of the things in our session when we had that's what you kept saying to people, you have to be willing to fail, you have to be willing to make mistakes in order to grow and change and to find the right solution. And so that is fantastic advice. All right. Is there anything else that you want to tell us about remote or you before we let people go on to explore the platform themselves? Anything else? Hoyin Cheung 25:46 Yeah, come to Remo.co, we've got many ways you can try the platform, we have an open space, we have demo, we have a demo we can give, you can contact any of us. The best ways to go to rule, the best would experience remote and you will immediately feel it and understand what it's about. I could sell to you and share with you as many times as I want. As many times as you are I want it doesn't matter. You go into an event, you'll feel it, you'll automatically get it. Patti Dobrowolski 26:11 It's so true. I mean, that's how I fell in love with remotes. I went in there to an event that was happening. And I was like, oh my god, this is exactly what I need. This is exactly what I want to be using. So that I can have a true experience with people that feels like they're sitting right next to me. And I can move around and meet other people in a conference space. It's beautiful. I love it. I love what you can build in it. And I can't wait to see what else you come up with because it's always amazing. Well, thank you so much for taking time with us today.  All right, everybody, you know the drill. If you'd go down there, you know, be sure to look at the show notes for how you can connect with Hoyin and Remo go there right away. Check it out. And thank you so much. Until next time Up Your Creative Genius. Thanks so much for listening today.  Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Moe Carrick is on a mission to restore humanity to work one magnificent people leader at a time. She believes that people can and should thrive at work, and that when they do, organizations succeed. With over 30+ years of work in organizations on issues of partnership, leadership, inclusion, strategy and culture.  Moe believes that rigorous self-awareness, courage, honest dialogue, curiosity, compassion, accountability, and empathy are fundamentals to building full and inclusive partnerships based on trust and generosity.  Moe is Founder of Moementum, Inc. and holds a Master's Degree in OD, is a Certified Dare to Lead™ Facilitator, a Coach, and is administrator of a variety of tools in her trade. She is author of two bestselling books, FIT Matters: How to Love Your Job and Bravespace Workplace: Making Your Company Fit for Human Life. As a white, US-born, heterosexual woman, Moe strives to use her privilege with grace to surface assumptions that interfere with teams and to explore systemic patterns. Timestamp 1:32 How Patti and Moe met 2:09 Moe's background and her life journey 11:14 Moe shares her perspective in Dare to Lead training 15:37 On the fragility of the white woman 19:52 How did COVID-19 effected Moe's life 24:47 Things that Moe finds most fascinating to her 27:30 What does Moe sees as bright lights that shine in the future world Social Media Facebook https://www.facebook.com/leadforhumans/ Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/moecarrick/ Website https://moecarrick.com/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars, welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life.  Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius today, I have literally in my mind, a rock star here, Moe Carrick is here. She's on a mission to restore humanity to work, you know, and she does that one people leader at a time, but she does way more than that. And so I'm gonna let her tell a lot about herself. But let me just say that, you know, she's got a master's in OD. She was trained by Brene Brown and dare to lead, she's certified. She's a coach. She's working with people all around the world to help them step into their greatness really, and to make a safe workspace for other people.  And you're so amazing. You've got a couple of best selling books, Fit Matters: How to Love Your Job, and Bravespace Workspace. I remember when that came out. And I was so like, Well, yeah. So I know her because I met her through my partner Julia, who she was the coach at Nintendo, and came in there. And then I was grateful enough to be one of the TED speakers on when she was really running Ted in Bend, Oregon, which you still may be doing. I don't know. But I just want to say everybody get ready, buckle in, because you're gonna get some serious download here. Welcome, Moe. I'm so happy you're here. Moe Carrick 02:00 Oh, thank you, Patti. So good to be here. I just am so happy to be here. And I was laughing in my mind when you said and she's certified some like certifiable, I'm certifiable. That's for sure. Patti Dobrowolski 02:12 Well, you've made a lot of change. So you know, I definitely think we're all certifiable. After you get to a certain age. I either lock them away, or bring them out full force. Right. And you're full force. Moe Carrick 02:27 Yes, that's one way to think about it, I suppose. So happy to be here. Patti Dobrowolski 02:31 Yeah. Cool. Well, would you tell people about yourself, you know, I just gave your shortened bio, because there were so many other pretty words. And then or bio closest with, you know, I'm a white heterosexual woman trying to make a difference in the world. I'm like, Yes, you are. You are doing some great things on behalf of white women everywhere. So thank you for that. So, all right. Moe Carrick 02:54 So that's white woman. We got some issues, but. Patti Dobrowolski 02:57 Oh, God, no doubt. I'm living in Texas. Can we talk about it? Can we talk about it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's serious. It's serious issues down here. Well tell us about you, tell us your story. Like where you came from? And then how did you get into doing what you're doing now? And etc? And then I'll ask some questions. Moe Carrick 03:18 thank you. So great. Well, it's funny that question like, how did you get into what you're doing now? Because I've been at it such a long time that it requires me to really go back, but it's something I've talked about. Patti Dobrowolski 03:29 30 plus years. Right? Moe Carrick 03:32 Yeah. But I have three millennial or Generation Z children. And each of them in their own way has asked like, there are different stages and the steps on and like, you know, how did you end up? Because I think in their mind, it's like, you just sort of magically appear of love. And it's like, no, that's not how it works. So because I never in my wildest dreams could have imagined doing the work that I do now. You know, do you feel that way, Patti? Like. Patti Dobrowolski 03:57 Yeah, like, who knew? I mean, you know, I was just a baby actor trying to scrape it together being a waitress, right? So to think that this, I mean, just in terms of all the experiences, right, so you too, but where did you grow up? Moe Carrick 04:11 Well, so I grew up on the East Coast. I was born in California, but my parents moved east when I was three. So I grew up in the Boston area. I lived in outside of Boston for most of my childhood, and I went to school in New Hampshire, New Hampshire, as they say, and I was an English major. So like, my passion was actually journalism. And also fiction. I love to read fiction and I think I had in my mind, like, someday I would write you know, the great American novel. Patti Dobrowolski 04:38 I'm sure it's still gonna happen. It's still gonna happen. Trust me. Moe Carrick 04:42 I enjoy reading it so much. And I end up reading business books, which are like nowhere near as interesting, but I was a wilderness guide. So when I was in college, like my passion was being in the outdoors and back then. I mean, there are still today, I'm sure lots of college experience programs that I had spent my summers with my dad In Yellowstone, he was an avid fly fisherman. So I grew up kind of loving the mountains of the West, living in New England, I really dreamed of, you know, going to the west.  And so I started with bicycle tours. I know you're a big cyclist. Yes, I worked for a great little company back when I was still in school called the biking expedition. Ah, we used to go right by, we used to ride right by the Ben and Jerry's headquarters, and we would eat like a pint of Ben and Jerry's. It was so good. But I went from there for bicycle guiding to working for Outward Bound, which I had been a student without rebound. And I really love the transformative experiences. And then I went on to work for Knowles, which is the National Outdoor Leadership School.  So over a period of like, I don't know, 10 years, I pretty much worked full time in the wilderness between college and kind of during grad school. And then after grad school, and I loved being out there with groups I loved. It's kind of where I cut my teeth on group work. And, you know, near the end of that time, I started to feel kind of burned out, you know, living out of my car and being outside as much as I was, although I loved it. I really did love the work.  The pay was, you know, a bit small, but a friend of mine, so I was in, I had enrolled in social work school, because I was therapists that work with chemically dependent kids and their families and all that work, but I was starting to kind of burn out. And so a friend of mine was studying OD, organizational development, and she was like, You should come with me to school.  It's really interesting. It's like therapy for adults. At work? So I went to school with her for the day, like I just tagged along, and I was blown away, because I just felt like there's this whole world of people at work, who need help, and leaders who need help figuring out like, how to make work hospitable, you know, for human life. That was back in the 80s. And so, you know, I often say we knew then what we know. Now we are not having necessarily made a lot of progress. But we've made some. Patti Dobrowolski 06:57 Definitely not enough. Moe Carrick 06:59 Yeah, not enough. But I did pivot at that point. I was like, Okay, I'm not gonna become a clinician, I'm gonna go to my master's in OD. And then when I finished grad school, I jumped ship completely. I always joked that I turned in my back then we were like polypropylene, you know, my bonds and my polypropylene. And I put on suits, you know, back then we had like. Patti Dobrowolski 07:20 I remember how Yeah, and you had to like, and you could wear the little tie thing around your neck or not, right? Remember? I never was a man's tie. I'd put that on and then my boss would be like, No, you're not going out like that. I mean, I love nature hair. Moe Carrick 07:39 I would have been great. I hated those bolts. Like what do you do you put a bow like. Patti Dobrowolski 07:45 A bow on it. Just put put a bow on. Right. So then you started to work in OD? Moe Carrick 07:52 I did. I did. I worked in the Seattle area. But then I was in Seattle. And I was working for a company called cost dialer, which was one and yeah, it was a OD but kind of for full, you know, you take the job you can get right. So the jobs that I was training, how to use a billing system, which was not very sophisticated. OD. But it was really interesting. Because the system that we were working was on the next computer do. Patti Dobrowolski 08:18 Oh my god, that is incredible. Moe Carrick 08:22 We were like the only company that ever implemented anything. Jobs is the next. Patti Dobrowolski 08:26 Yes, of course. Moe Carrick 08:27 Is we're like this big, you know. Patti Dobrowolski 08:29 Yes. Moe Carrick 08:29 But it was a really good job for me, like got me over the hump of you know, being in the wilderness. And then now I was in corporate America. And you know, I had a lot of negative feelings about people in corporate America, because I had come from the nonprofit social services side. And here, I found myself with these people that actually were really interesting people making change happen in the world, but they had kind of more means, you know, really. Patti Dobrowolski 08:53 They just made money. That's what I always tell people, you know, you want to go into corporate if you want to make money, you want to feed yourself. Moe Carrick 09:01 Yeah, absolutely. So I made that transition and kind of worked, you know, internally for a number of years, and then in 2001 went out on my own. Patti Dobrowolski 09:08 Oh, 2001. That's so fantastic. I love that. Oh, that's so great. And so now you have really evolved what you've done, right? I mean, you did OD before and I don't know when I came across you maybe 2005 around there 2005 or 2006. And you were doing not traditional OD you would come and facilitate the C level leaders right in their off sites. Moe Carrick 09:38 Right. A lot of offsites and a lot of I would say I was probably I was like your classic custom consultant, you know, I would come in and assess the situation, diagnose them and work with them. Often. I would work with clients for a long period of time, you know, once a year during a period of big transition. So like when I met Julie and Nintendo that's when they went from 2 billion to 8 billion you know, when it was like Super exciting time to consult to them. And so that's kind of what I did for a long time. Because in consulting, I always joke it was basically trading time for money. Patti Dobrowolski 10:08 Yeah, yeah, no doubt, I would agree. I would go around the world and train people in change management. And that's really what I did you know, but I got really good at facilitating in that experience, like you learn how to listen, well, you learn how to move people along, I think, you know, I'm probably more demanding and command than you are in the corporate space, because I really like an outcome at the end, because I'm drawing a picture, it's got to look pretty, right, and got to be finished in some way. So. Moe Carrick 10:50 Don't you think that even Patti, like even when you're drawing, I think one of the things I've always appreciated about you when I've seen you work, and I feel it's like this skill that I've gained by accident as well, which is like you're holding space, which you wouldn't think you're doing much when you're holding space, but like it's so big to hold space and get to that outcome or move those people forward? You're not necessarily doing anything? No, but you're doing so much. Patti Dobrowolski 11:14 Well, and I think this idea of holding space, I was talking to a couple that we had dinner with and we were talking about how do we create change in terms of race and equity, and I was saying, you know, we need to actually have tolerate, and have conversations that are really uncomfortable. And you've gotten very good at that. I mean, that's how I know you is that you are willing to go to the really hard places and hold space. And also help people come to, I would say their senses, but a deeper sense of what is happening in the room. So, you know, say a little bit about what you learned in the Dare to Lead training, and then also what you've been doing around equity and inclusion, because I think people will be very interested to hear that, from your perspective. Moe Carrick 12:11 Thank you. Well, you know, dare to lead. And I started with my relationship with Brene Browns content when it was the daring way. Patti Dobrowolski 12:19 Yes. Moe Carrick 12:20 And what happened to me I had one of those experiences, I'm sure you've had them where I read one of her books, I didn't know who she was from BU. I had, of course been working in emotional intelligence for a long time. And then I read someone gave me one of her books, the Gifts of Imperfection. Patti Dobrowolski 12:33 Yes. Moe Carrick 12:33 And I was like, I'm not a perfectionist, you know, come on. Patti Dobrowolski 12:36 This isn't gonna attach me. Moe Carrick 12:38 No, exactly. And I read it and like four pages, and I'm like, That is me, you know, that is me. And she there was a term she used in that book that really touched me. And it was this it was hustling for worthiness, oh, worthiness. And I was like, Who is this person? Like, that's me. I'm like, tapping. Patti Dobrowolski 12:57 That, made me shiver. That's how much it was, oh, yeah. Moe Carrick 13:01 Me too. And so I started researching her. And at that time, she was, you know, certifying people in a daring way. And I went, I mean, I don't know how I got in, I just, and it was really pretty mind blowing for me, because she was the first person that I've had experience with, in the space of OD work. That was a woman who was like kicking ass. Patti Dobrowolski 13:21 She, she really, really is on her game. Moe Carrick 13:25 Totally. Patti Dobrowolski 13:26 And there's no BS there at all. Moe Carrick 13:28 And there's no there's very few other women in our space who are doing that. Now at that time, she was like, it was mostly therapists, there were about 20 of us in my cohort that were OD just like you guys, wait, I got a book. It's coming for you, you know. And then a few years later, Derek lead came out kind of slightly different body of research. And so I just moved into that work. And I still find that, you know, for me, that work now is a little bit like, you know, when you buy a new car, and you've never seen like a bright yellow, Volkswagen, but. Patti Dobrowolski 13:57 Then you see it everywhere. You know, that's the reticular activating system, you know, in action, that's a part of your brain that it has its own Google algorithm. So when you see something, and that calls it to your brain, and that's why I tell people put the picture of your future somewhere, you can see it every day because it taps the reticular activating system, and it'll pull all the things in the future to you. And you'll see them everywhere. So yeah, so I bet that then you started to see it. Moe Carrick 14:26 Then everywhere. I feel like now in everything I do, I can't get away from courage, vulnerability and shame. I'd like everything with her again, building shame. But I think especially in this work, you know, around diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging and justice, you know, we have to be so brave in that work. And I think, you know, being in the culture of whiteness, and in the culture of the white feminine.  We have some real work to do about what it looks like to stand in grounded competence to shepherd other people's stories to not set to ourselves, and to not be so fragile that we can't actually get a walk through. So I think my feeling is that courage is essential for all of the hard things, you know, that we want in our lives, including partnerships with people that are different than us and effective teams and companies that can meet their mission. And it's all kind of part of the thing.  That's why don't deliver as much like straight here to LEED certifications, and no, no, of course not. I'm a bit cute. And ubiquity. Yeah, what I would say is that it feels like that that's sort of like, you know, that's sort of the compost in the ground that you stand on. Right? Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 15:37 And so you marinate in that, and that everything else has sprung from some of the concepts there and these other things that I know to be true about you before you did that. You know, I knew you before that time, and then I knew you after.  So I think that one of the things that I'm curious about is when you talk about the fragility of the white woman say more about that, because I'm gay, and we are not fragile. I mean, we are and you can't believe how fragile I've become this year. And so I've really cracked open into that place. But you know, that's the myth is that the gay woman is we're not fragile. Come on, we put up with too much. And we're not going back. Right. But speak to that, because I think that's interesting. I want to know more about that. Moe Carrick 16:25 Well, yeah. And it's funny because like, I use the word fragile in terms of how white women are often enculturated I don't think white women, but actually are fragile, like, Patti Dobrowolski 16:34 No, correct. Moe Carrick 16:35 Gay and straight. Like, they're tough as nails. Right? They give birth, they raise money, they do hard things. I think what's happened, though, and this is, you know, there's of course, people that have researched this, like Deborah Tannen and others, and then there's just most philosophy, right? But what I see play out over and over again, at work, but at home as well is that, you know, it has to do with how we navigate emotion. And I think men and women are acculturated really differently. Men are in culture, that there's one emotion they can feel and express and that is. Patti Dobrowolski 17:06 Anger. Moe Carrick 17:06 Anger. Exactly. And Jennifer Bosa, who's a University of Florida researcher, she talks about this beautiful expression she uses, she says, you know, men have a very narrow band of masculinity. What's acceptable to be masculine is very narrow, and it's basically you can be pissed off, but can't be much else. You know, Boys Don't Cry, man up all that stuff.  So we see the masculine caricature and masculine traits around emotion being really narrow. Women, white women in particular are in culture to really differently, you know, I remember as a child, none of you remember this, but I remember being given a pretty wide swath of emotional expression, I could cry, I could laugh and giggle and be funny and silly.  But what I couldn't do is be angry. Right? That's so what we see is an acculturation of women who get a message that they should be supportive, right, the helper kind of model and they should not ever be angry. And so what happens is we subvert I think a lot of our real feelings into look like other things. Like that's why women, people come to me at work all the time bosses, and they'll say, you know, I don't like meeting with women and giving hard feedback because they cry and they you know, they're so sad and like, they're not sad. They're pissed. Patti Dobrowolski 18:19 Yeah, they just express it in a different way. Right? Yeah, that's right. Moe Carrick 18:25 Because the question so I think what happens is and when we see what's happening, the DEI space of course, we see white women who become woke, let's say a white heterosexual, middle class woman becomes woke, she starts to realize, oh, man, like, I've been upholding patriarchy, I'm part of oppression, I didn't know it.  And they feel terrible. I mean, that feels like crap. When you start to wake up and you get shamed, triggered, you get to feel like, that means I'm not worthy. And so then we become, like, I actually call it empty vessel syndrome, which is we become completely clear, like we go from being well educated, intelligent, articulate women to like, I know nothing. Patti Dobrowolski 19:03 Yeah. Moe Carrick 19:03 And we turn to black and brown people, to gay people, to queer people and trans people and disabled people. And we basically say, I know nothing. You tell me everything. Patti Dobrowolski 19:12 Instead of instead of Oh, educate yourself. Find out, have a hard conversation, but not asking somebody to do it for you. Moe Carrick 19:24 Exactly. And also notice your own story. Yeah. It's your own story. And I mean, I can really I don't think I even knew I was white until I was 24, which is kind of late like you'd think that would be. Patti Dobrowolski 19:34 Yeah. Moe Carrick 19:35 Getting in touch with my heterosexuality took me a few more years after that. Patti Dobrowolski 19:39 Yeah, like, Moe Carrick 19:40 Oh, I'm freak. I'm white. I'm middle class. That's who I am. And so what does that mean to how I show up more? Because if we can't be grounded in our own identity, we can't partner. Patti Dobrowolski 19:52 Oh, it's so true. And I think that most of us, we don't spend time thinking about that, you know, recently I had to look at you know, the non binary whole thing that's happening in the world? And I thought, Well, I've always been non binary. I mean, do I need to change my pronouns? Do I need to come out as trans? Do I need to, I had to, like, investigate these things for myself, because otherwise, I was making assumptions that I was going to stay the same. And that's not how we grow and change.  And that really was hard, and it ripped me open. And I ever have memories, you know, from very young, and I thought, wow, this is life at its best. And I know, from a spiritual perspective, you know, my essence, it was like, Yes, we're having this experience, you're freaking out. I love this, because that means you're going to crack open and be more love.  Right. And I think that's part of what we have during COVID Is that we have this cracking open, and this going inward, which we haven't had in a long time. And so say what you have experienced during COVID? Because I'm curious, like, how did it impact you, your business? Your family? Moe Carrick 21:07 It's been tough. It's been tough for all of us. You know, for me, I call it the great tie off, because I watched my business just Yeah, off the calendar, you know, March of 2021. Like, oh, oh my God. Now I have four employees, I have zero revenue, like, what are we gonna do? Like, I've always traveled for work. That's, you know, been how I had gigs set up for a year in advance, and that just all died. And I did panic.  I mean, I was like, what does this mean? But I also knew that my team was depending on me, you know, so I went into just some shame, like I was sitting with, I'm not worthy. I'm too old to pivot this business. I don't know what that looks like. And then I kind of God, you know, I spoke about that with some people that can handle my unworthiness, you know, and, and got it together enough to talk to my team.  And I basically said, you know, I don't know how we're going to survive this, but I know that we are, I had one team member that was out on maternity one, that's Canadian who had just come back just under the, you know, so. Yeah, so we had to reinvent the business, which was hard and scary. You know, 2020 was definitely a revenue dip. 2021 bounce back really strong, because we moved more to a program model, you know, stuff. Patti Dobrowolski 22:16 Yeah, stuff online. Moe Carrick 22:17 Yeah. Which is not anywhere near as connecting, but it's had some beautiful upsides. Like, I just love being in my own town, you know, do the hobbies that I have, like, I just love that. But I also have it you know, these three kids I mentioned, it's been hard on them. You know, I had one that was a freshman when COVID hit, they are really just beginning to come out of that anxiety place. I've got, you know, we have recovery in our family. It's been hard emotionally on all of us. And Patti Dobrowolski 22:46 kind of, and you lost your mom in the middle of this. Moe Carrick 22:49 Yes, we lost my mom and my father in law we had to. My other one was from COVID. But I think we had lucky with my mom. I mean, not lucky, it's horrible that she died. But we were lucky in the sense that we could be there. You know, my father in law was not we weren't able to visit, you know, and I just think that was really hard for my husband and his widow and stuff.  And, and yeah, that took up a lot of my 2021 was caring for my mom who had my mom had, what do they call it? It's basically medication induced dementia, she had a broken wrist, and then a broken hip and all the narcotics brought her dementia on full force. I didn't even know that was a thing. And so she, you know, my mom's worst fear was to lose her mind in a passive care setting. And that's exactly what happened.  So for me, I was grateful that I was her caregiver, I could be here with her and with her when she died, but, you know, that changes your point of view. So I feel like it's been a transformative period, but also a scary period. And then, of course, on the worksite. And I know a lot of your listeners are in some transition, and we're seeing what everybody's calling the great resignation. I call it the great reframe, you know, yeah, me too. Yeah, they're looking at work. They're like, what? Patti Dobrowolski 24:01 You want to pay me what? To do? What I'd rather start my own business, right? Moe Carrick 24:06 Absolutely. Like, wait a minute, this shouldn't suck. And that's what I've always said, like workplace should not stop. Patti Dobrowolski 24:12 That's right. That's what you're all about. Yeah. And you should feel good. Moe Carrick 24:16 You should feel good. And so for employers and employees alike, for me, it's it's a wonderful time to re to really reshape our relationship with work. And of course, it's hard, very difficult to do in a capitalist society. But I find myself energized by the stories I'm seeing and the way companies I mean, I feel bad for business leaders, because they're like, oh, but on the other hand, they're having to change fundamentally, the cultures that they create in order to be better for people. Patti Dobrowolski 24:46 Well, yeah, and to retain there are people I think this has been the biggest challenge and people will say, we can't keep people I go, Well, you can't keep it well, because you don't have a good workplace environment. And why don't you have that because you never really spent the time to build that, and that takes attention, focus, love, courage, all those things that you talked about.  And then once you have those, and you want to have a good product to whatever it is, if you're in that kind of a service industry or a product industry, that has to be good, too. And then your customers have to be happy and everything's changed so much. It's so up in the air that I wonder, you know, when you think about the work that you're doing now, what is it that most fascinates you? Because the thing that catches your attention? You say, Yeah, more of that. I want to do more of that. Moe Carrick 25:35 Well, I love that question so much. I think there's two things. One is like, I am really captivated by young leaders. You know, like, I'm a baby boomer, and we are acids are entering this workforce, you know, and it is time but we have not nor have the generation xers we've not done a good job handing off the baton. And it's time. It's time. So I see these young people coming in with so many more skills at inclusion. Patti Dobrowolski 26:03 I know well, just smarter. Moe Carrick 26:06 They're smarter. Patti Dobrowolski 26:07 They are like a whole people, Moe Carrick 26:09 They're whole people, they're flexible, they're curious, you know, they have a global perspective, that is mind blowing. So to me, that's super exciting. And my team is young. And I'm so grateful for that. Because I mean, they kind of treat me a little bit like the wise old elder. And I struggle a little bit with even some of the technologies that we use. I'm like, wait, tell me about notion or slack? Like, what do I do? You know, but I'm learning.  So I think young people is just a huge a huge thing for me. The other thing that's exciting for me, but it's also kind of terrifying is a lot of our clients. So as you know, my company was a B Corp for many years, we didn't let that go in 2021, just because it's a lot of work to keep it going. But we have a real passion for business as a force for good. So we've always gravitated more towards private companies, because the public company Leadership Challenge is just so untenable. I mean, you just can't make money up into the right over and over. That's not the natural world war. Patti Dobrowolski 27:01 No. Moe Carrick 27:02 So we do work. And in COVID, we've worked a lot in both healthcare and education. Patti Dobrowolski 27:07 Yeah. Moe Carrick 27:07 And those systems from a, you know, systems thinker in a leadership perspective, they are so broken. Patti Dobrowolski 27:14 I was gonna say broken, and but I didn't know if I could get it out of my lips. Because they are and me too. That's where I've been healthcare and working with education because it is broken. Moe Carrick 27:25 But people are not broken in. Patti Dobrowolski 27:27 Oh, no, the people are. Moe Carrick 27:28 The systems are broken. Patti Dobrowolski 27:30 It's devastatingly broken. So yes. And I think to get into that, like, like, that's a whole topic unto itself, because there are some amazing people that are working to heal that so that it is for the neurodiverse child. And that's what needs to happen. You know, and I think that people don't understand that they think, oh, you know, they're artistic. They're not going to be I mean, like, look, this is the world we live in now.  Right? We messed up the food chain. We fed people to food, and then it shows up in these ways. And we think, Well, how did that happen? Well, yeah. Okay. So you know, these are the ripple effects of it. But I wonder when you think about that, when you envision the future of what you're going to be doing, and what you see out there, the bright light out there, not that bright light, but the bright lights of the really amazing world that we're going to step into, what do you see as part of it? Moe Carrick 28:36 Well, I would say probably two main things that I see when I dream ahead, right. One is leaders who are Through and Through good for people. Yeah, like and you've used the word love a couple of times, Patti today, and I love that you're using that word, because, for me, that's what leadership at its best is all about. It's like leaders who have the capacity to open their heart create real connection.  And I don't mean just leader by positional authority. I think of even a leader in the classroom, my son is substitute teaching, and he told me the story yesterday about a little boy, he was in second grade, this little boy had a scab on his knee. And he said he had to go see the nurse, but the nurse was on break. So my son took him for a walk.  And he said, Tell me, how bad is your pain? scab on his knee? Not an open. My son said it's a one to 10 You know, and he said it's definitely 10. And he was like, well, let's talk about that. They're really like, what about if you actually broke your leg? That might be more but then you know, but what I what struck me about that is that, in this case, leader, my son, substitute teacher had an opportunity for 15 minutes to make a difference to a little boy who's nice, gab was the most important thing for him.  And I think that you know, so when I get excited about the future of the workplace, I think about leaders at every single level who actually have the capacity to love and to connect, not an That unhealthy HR way, but like in a real way that activates the greatness of people. Like that's mind bogglingly exciting to think about. And the other piece, I think, is that people have lives that work that human beings in every sector, including the really dirty, hard, ugly jobs, that they to actually have a life that works. Because we need, you know, we need people to show our horses, and to clean out our drains and serve food, we need those people. But we act like they are not people. Patti Dobrowolski 30:31 Yeah, we act like their slaves. Really, that's what's true. We just treat them like that coming in the house and do the thing by see you later. And I remember one of the great things that I learned living in New York, from the woman that I lived with, there was our production stage manager. And she tipped everybody. And, you know, I took that to heart. And so when ever anybody brings something to our house, I tip them, because they need to know that I appreciate them.  And that I'm not going to take them for granted at minimum wage. And I think that if minimum wage stays where it is, and we continue to treat people like that, just because they don't look like us. They don't have the education we do, or that they're just in a job like that. I mean, I did those jobs. I know you did, too. We did those jobs, we cleaned people's houses. So you know, it's not that far in the past. And if you've never had that experience, go clean somebody's house and see how you like it. Right? You have to really have compassion and empathy for what people are doing to make your life easier. Yes, during COVID, you got to really see that I think, you know, Moe Carrick 31:45 And these health care workers, you know, like, they're just dealing with such bad behavior, oh, waitresses, and waiters who are just getting sexually harassed. Like, we just have a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 31:56 I was thinking about the flight attendants to where people are getting disruptive on the plane, I'm like, please, people sit down. They are not your mother, or father or whoever beat you up, or whatever happened to you that before you came into this plane, please, please just relax. Moe Carrick 32:12 Yeah, yeah. And be compassionate, you know, for ourselves and for others. You know, it seems when I say it out loud, I even look at myself, you probably do this to Kylie. Sometimes I'm like, Oh, God, no, you're just in your mind or like in llama land, you know, but I really am not like I really believe that, that workplaces can be fit for human life, and that there's a place for everyone. You know, there is a place for every worker to bring their good stuff and have it activated. And I just think that we've lost our ability to kind of acknowledge Yeah, in my own sight. Oh, there. Patti Dobrowolski 32:46 Yeah. I love that. I think that when we think about the future, what we would want for myself, I think, oh, you know, even I'm listening to myself, just like the last two minutes. And I think, yeah, you better like work on that. Because that seems like you're like running some sort of program in there. So drop that. And see if you can't drop into a space where you can empathize for both sides here. For the people who can't step up, and the people who can, and the people who are on the receiving end.  I mean, I think that that's what it calls on us is to raise our emotional intelligence so high, that we are look first to see and then look less to judge, look less to judge what's happening in yourself or somebody else, to calm yourself down. You know, do whatever PQ Rep Positive Intelligence thing you can do to get yourself from the back to the front. And, you know, and then step around, apologize, say what's true.  And so if I offended anyone who's listening today, by what I said, or I didn't say the right thing, I just want to apologize in advance and you could write me an email, you know, but I am with Moe. And so she's about creating momentum. And so when you think about creating momentum in the world, what kind of momentum are you interested in creating and what would you tell other people about how they can create momentum? Moe Carrick 34:15 Yeah, it's interesting, because I've noticed and COVID is like, brought this up even more for me, Patti, but like, I definitely narrowed my focus I become more capable of claiming that my theater is work. Like it's work you know, it's the world of work is the one that captivates me in all sectors, but in some like we've talked like in particular. So for me, part of what momentum means is like being able to keep our selves grounded, even when work is not that fun. Because there's still value that we can add and I did a social media posted something about this a couple weeks ago was really interesting kind of attention. It was about how I think that it's BS that we incur Young people were starting to follow their passion. One of my staff members said to me, we were talking about it. And she said, Well, the reason we do that is that our mothers told us that we this is a generation. Patti Dobrowolski 35:10 That's right. Moe Carrick 35:10 Yeah, yeah, our mother told us we could do anything we wanted, that we should hold out until we, you know, found our passion. And I'm like, Yeah, but that's cool. Because like, you put my past. Patti Dobrowolski 35:20 You can't hold out that long. It's not gonna magically appear, you got to work your way up the ladder. And that's right. Moe Carrick 35:28 My passions, me fulfill my life, like I love you've probably seen I write all the time about my horse, who I love and all that I'm never gonna make money as a horse person, like, I'm not that good, you know, but I can indulge that passion. And so I think sometimes we have to put ourselves in the mindset of saying, Okay, this job, or this life circumstance, or this city I'm living in isn't maybe my highest and best right now.  But it's putting me forward, it's giving me a thing that says that I'm learning that I'm growing, that I'm meeting new people, and it's gonna lead me to a different thing. So I think that's for me, what we're meant to me is like being able to tolerate this somewhat uncomfortable now, for the sake of what No, it will bring for us, you know, Patti Dobrowolski 36:10 tolerate the somewhat uncomfortable now, with the knowledge that something great is coming. Right may not be now, but wow, that is, that is deep, that's boom, Mic drop. I mean, it really, it really is, because no matter what age you are, or where you are in your career, or your life, you know, it's not always pretty, I think this is the thing, the myth that we get fed is that, you know, you have this thing, and then it becomes this thing. And it's like, magnificent, and then it remains there.  But in fact, that's not how the world works. It goes like this up and down, and up and down, and up and down. And that resiliency really is key. If you can be resilient to change, you got it. That's it, and that even resiliency changes and the level and degree, and all the hard places inside of yourself. Moe Carrick 37:06 Well, yes, and Patti, I've been doing a lot of work on resilience, as I'm sure you have. And I looked up the word, I don't know, year ago, whatever. And I was really interested to find out that it's a physics term that describes when metal in particular gets deformed. Like it's about our ability to bounce to retake our previous shape, you know, when we get bent out of it. And I think that. Patti Dobrowolski 37:28 When we get bent out of our shape, you get your hearing that right? When you get bent out of shape. So you can reform. Moe Carrick 37:36 Bend to reform, and it may not be the same. In fact, it probably isn't going to be the same when can be done with my co author on my first book Fit Matters: How to Love Your Job, when we were researching our book, one of the things that we thought was a brilliant idea then, and I still do now was that we realized in our interviews in our research that we did identify seven things that people need from work. And those seven things are temporarily sensitive. They change over time. Patti Dobrowolski 38:02 Yeah, they changed over time. Moe Carrick 38:03 What I needed when I was 20 is really different than what I need now at 60. And to me, there's just so much grace, in like, acknowledging and be able to say, you know, wow, right now, this is meeting my needs, because it's allowing me to blank, whatever, and it won't be forever. It will only be for now. Patti Dobrowolski 38:23 And what what a great way of approaching things, I think, is to realize that for this moment, right now, you're in a space where this works. But that space will be transitory. So be sure to appreciate everything that you're experiencing good, bad, indifferent, right? So I can't wait to talk to you again. And I just love you so much. I respect you so much. I'm just in this conversation, I think of the other conversations we've had and how I've grown and changed as a result of listening to you. And so for those of you that are listening, you know, be sure to connect with Moe, she has one of the best posts almost every day you post something right? And they're so interesting, and they take you on a journey. So if you want to evolve and change and be a better leader, you know, follow Moe Carrick because she'll get you some momentum, that's for sure. Moe Carrick 39:26 Well, thank you, Patti. And I want to count right back at you because you have been a real inspiration for me, always, ever since I've known you all those years ago. Because of the visual nature of your work. We use digital recording in our work, you've trained my people, and it's changed everything about how we think and when you launch your podcast, which I'm so honored to be part of. It really is Barbie because I tried to start a podcast in 2020 I interviewed three famous people and then I never launched them. It's like I'm so embarrassed, but I just didn't have it together.  Like I was not ready, and then I've been following your podcast and I just, it's only a few months ago, I said to my team, okay, we're launching the podcast and it doesn't have to be perfect. Like, just don't do it, you know. So you're truly inspiring. And it's especially inspiring for like, that the expression you use of creative genius, like a really that deeper work. That takes us some time to get there. But it's so important. And for me, you know, as someone who has plenty of things to occupy my mind, I can easily fritter away my creative genius on stupid things. But to really tune in and be like, no, actually no, hang in there. The good stuff is coming is really powerful. And you inspire me to be. Patti Dobrowolski 40:38 Oh, thank you so much. Well, I just think that this is the time the time is now. And the opening is now for all of us to step into more of our creative genius. There's no better time than now to start your business to change how you are as a leader to, you know, make friends with people you never thought you would to move to a country. You know, I was gonna say a country, but to a state where you never thought you'd live right? This is the time to do it and know that you can do it. And so I thank you for this time together. And I look forward to doing this again, because this is going to be so fun. All right. Moe Carrick 41:15 Thanks, Patti. Patti Dobrowolski 41:16 All right. Talk to you soon, Moe. All right, everybody, you know the drill, please follow Mo and you know, in the show notes, you'll see all of her social media that you can get in on what she's doing because she's amazing. Okay, until next time Up Your Creative Genius. Let's do this. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap.

Mark Tippin is a published author, internationally-recognized keynote speaker and instructor in remote collaboration, human-centered design and visual facilitation. He is currently the Director, Strategic Next Practices at MURAL and a certified Lead Instructor at LUMA Institute. He brings over two decades of experience helping teams unlock their potential to lead powerful conversations in their organizations. Mark believes facilitation is the quintessential 21st-century skill and that extending those talents online to distributed teams is more important than ever. He has led design teams and facilitated transformation events with enterprise brands including Autodesk, Netflix, Mayo Clinic, IBM and All Nippon Airways. Previously, he was the senior manager of UX at Autodesk overseeing its cloud platforms. Mark has spoken at key industry events, delivering the keynote on The Future of Visual Facilitation for the International Forum of Visual Practitioners (IFVP), the keynote for Evolving Enterprise Design at Thomson Reuters and Working Visually at Autodesk's Design X Summit. Timestamp 2:13 Mark's journey into UX design 17:51 How Mark spends his free time 22:49 Mark sharing things that makes him excited everyday - LUMA 25:05 Mark's future vision and mission 34:20 The figure that Mark wishes to be 39:13 Tips on pivoting in life and getting through challenges Social Media Mark's Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/marktippin/ MURAL Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/company/mural.co/ MURAL Website https://www.mural.co/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, oh my gosh, I have Mark Tippin here. I told him really, I believe he's like Gordon McKenzie in the book orbiting the giant hairball.  If you've never read that book, then you don't know what I'm talking about. But I will say this, that Mark Tippin and Gordon McKenzie, they're both really creative geniuses in that they help people to kind of problem solve at this bigger level, like they are the Ideator 10x, right, or 100x.  And so you know, let me just say a little bit about Mark, before we get started, he is a published author. He's an international speaker. He's an instructor and remote communicator and collaborator. And he's the director of the strategic next practices at mural, which is an online collaboration platform, which is awesome. And he's also an instructor at Luma. And what he does is he helps teams to unlock their potential by leading these powerful conversations. And what I love about you is we're in alignment about this that facilitation is the skill that you want to learn in the 21st century as we are getting further and further into it, because you want to be able to have these conversations with people that are authentic, where you actually listen as a leader, and that you help guide the conversation to a better, bigger place. So please put your hands together to help me welcome Mark Tippin. Yes, Mark. Mark Tippin 02:11 Thank you so much, Patti. What a delight to be here. Patti Dobrowolski 02:13 Gosh, I'm so happy to have you here. You know, it's funny, because you were head of UX at Autodesk. And you know, my friend, Phil Shepper. Worked at Autodesk for many, many years. And so I used to go out there all the time to Autodesk, you know, and eat lunch and stuff like that. So, yeah, I'm glad you're at mural now. But tell people who you are like, What are you up to? Where do you come from? Why are you here? Mark Tippin 02:37 You bet. Well, everyone can start if they want to see roots, do a Google search, or Mark Tippin and Punk those two words together. And you'll see me back in the day with the Mohawk playing shows in the Bay Area and being part of a DIY community in high school where, you know, the odd and the quirky. And the interesting and the creative, had a bonded together and I started a band because I wanted to do the flyers, I wanted the T shirts I wanted to do. Patti Dobrowolski 03:03 Oh my God, I love it. Mark Tippin 03:06 And we didn't know how to play. So we have a numbering system where it was like number of string and fret and we'd pass notes in the hallways. And when we got together, we'd actually then figure out so what's the syncopation? What is this about? But that I also, you know, my dad handed me in eighth grade a copy of two Alvin Toffler books, Future Shock and third wave. And he said, you're going to be really different than mine. And he was born in 1928. So big generation different. I was born in 68, kind of that big, tumultuous year in America's history. But yes, so I appreciated that because they set me up for success. I had an Atari 800 computer, I typed 1000s of lines of code, yes, you know, antic magazine, all the stuff. Patti Dobrowolski 03:52 Yeah. Mark Tippin 03:52 And it led me on a course where, what I appreciated about design and having two older sisters that were both very accomplished designers, kind of seeing how you could take visual skills and then apply them to storytel or to consolidate some aesthetic into an icon and that stuff fascinated me. Patti Dobrowolski 04:12 Yeah, yeah. Mark Tippin 04:12 But always the technology was right there too. Patti Dobrowolski 04:15 Yes. Fantastic. I love that. Now we're gonna be side by side. I like it. Mark Tippin 04:21 It's interesting, because when you mentioned Autodesk, I have this unique vantage point their toes, I did two tours of duty one was in the 90s. Before the internet. Patti Dobrowolski 04:31 Yeah. Mark Tippin 04:31 So that was CD ROM authoring and seeing the birth of UX design, when it was in an eight bit studio programme designing what are the buttons look like when the highlights on the top versus the bottom? Very, yes, yes. Oh, what are the affordances mice were available then, but this whole new What is this human machine interface thing? And then I went and did a couple startups and then I was invited back in 2010. And it was like a Parallel Universe Marvel universe where I bet 90s No one except for architects new auditor. Patti Dobrowolski 05:07 That's right. That's right. I mean, you know, there was no CAD yet. Right. Autodesk didn't have it. It was like a brand new thing that was getting developed. Yeah. Mark Tippin 05:16 That's right. The merger and acquisition, right. Yeah, we're in the Hollywood effects, even though they couldn't talk about it on some projects, because people were still touring. They're investing, Patti Dobrowolski 05:25 you know, but they were so close to Lucasfilm. Right. So there was like, right across the valley there. Yes. Mark Tippin 05:31 And then fast forward. Wow. Instead of having to shuttle you know, if you're doing a sales presentation, something you'd have to shuttle people from SFO all the way through 19th avenue for anyone in the Bay Area, you understand how painful that is? Is your song a dance, and then get them all the way back to the airport? No, they have the gallery, right, which was a powerful way to actually highlight not look at us in our software, it was look at what our customers are doing with giving them that's humbling. I mean, some of it was how to build an incubator, to cut down infant mortality using parts that were available through a culture that really understood how to keep old cars running. So it's a car battery. It's a headlamp, and you really saw design come alive, and it'd be appropriate technology. So it was there. Ironically. Patti Dobrowolski 06:21 That was always that where you became a design thinker. Mark Tippin 06:24 It was because I. Patti Dobrowolski 06:25 It was right when design thinking was becoming a thing. Mark Tippin 06:29 Absolutely. It was unique, because it was ground zero for several things. Autodesk was at this point where in the 90s, it was Diso systems, it was these big other enterprise, right, that everyone was like, that's our competition. Well, 2010, we realised we're actually in competition against our users that cobbling together workflows from the internet, makes it possible can get your hands on. And so we intentionally needed to disrupt ourselves. And we needed to change business models, and all that kind of stuff. So I had a team that actually span 12 time zones. Tel Aviv. Oh, wow, Hyderabad, India, nice. And I was doing this crazy commute from Folsom, California to the other side of Sacramento. On a good day, it's three hours one way a Giants game in San Francisco, it's five and a half hours, crazy. And it sit at a desk, and then do nothing but hop on calls with my team that wasn't in the building with me. And through merger and acquisition, all this talent was being acquired, really, the software is being acquired. And then we have all these people, what do we do with. Patti Dobrowolski 07:32 What do we do with them? Of these? How do we fit them in exam or Cisco is just acquire, acquire, acquire, acquire? No, no, you stay your unique self, and then we'd go in and facilitate for them. And it'd be like, Whoa, that's a shit show. Me but yes, we'll probably have to bleep that out. But well, yes, but truly unbelievable. Mark Tippin 07:51 And so I was trained, or kind of my empathetic nature led me to be a kind of a servant leader, right? Hire people way smarter than you get all the rocks out of the way, set them up for success. And it was a challenge, because if you weren't actually in San Francisco, and around the water cooler, or having that cup of coffee, then your ideas didn't get heard. And if you're outside that domain, you pretty much got relegated to just execute on what was decided. And so I was looking for a way to level the playing field. And that's when I started looking for tools like Mirel. There are a few out there simultaneously Lumo was being brought in Autodesk, which is yes, one of their larger if you go to the Luma site, it's got a nice little showcase on but yeah, exactly. But it was part of a culture transformation where you had the 3D tools for movie studios have a different UI, because they're doing different things than people that are building pipes underneath civic infrastructure in a city, right. And yet the users were spanning across, right. Architects are saying, Yeah, I have to design the bolts and this kind of structural thing. Right, and sell it. I got to put people in there. So I'm using the Hollywood special effects stuff to put. Patti Dobrowolski 09:08 Yeah. Yeah. Mark Tippin 09:09 So they didn't see a distinction between the tools. Although if you don't ship your org structure, exactly. From inside, a totally different team. They're in a different part of the world. Patti Dobrowolski 09:20 Yeah. Mark Tippin 09:21 So there was a lot I was just had the amazing fortune to be right in the middle of this cauldron, and being alumina instructor. And having this crazy commute. I was already trying to figure out how can I do this without so much travel? And I'm running apps and people are flying in from around the world. And they're getting exposed to these wonderful methods. And this is amazing. Now what do I do when I go home to Switzerland to my teams in Italy? And in Toronto? Patti Dobrowolski 09:45 Yes. Mark Tippin 09:46 And I was like, Yeah, that's a darn good question. And so, for me, the nature of human centred design and these methods, and then a tool like Mural that actually gets really special their personas like facilitator, because a key persona, unlike, you know, most other software. Patti Dobrowolski 10:06 Yeah, that's right. And a facilitator really is the key persona in a meeting. Without one, you really just kind of bumble around through the agenda. Because most of you didn't have good meeting management, one on one, right? So you don't understand that you have to have a facilitator and a timekeeper, a note taker, right. But when you have something in an online format, that actually helps to facilitate the process and keep you all engaged, which is the key when we're now in COVID. Right? So you saw the value of that, and then you got involved somehow must have been early on, because you play a key role there now. Mark Tippin 10:46 I get it, it was one of those, you know, I know that you have the people that you've coached, and helped them pivot and certain things, and I happen to be in the middle of that where a massive pivot for me happen. I was a manager of design people. I was getting further and further away from. Patti Dobrowolski 11:03 What you loved me I loved, yeah. Mark Tippin 11:05 At the end of the day, or end of the week. Patti Dobrowolski 11:07 Remember, go back to high school, when the recently had the punk band was the T shirts in the poster. Mark Tippin 11:13 Hands on, making the music right? Patti Dobrowolski 11:16 That's right. And now second fret, second fret. Yeah, two fingers like that. Mark Tippin 11:24 And so at the end of the week, I knew that the team had things that they had touched, and they had made or they had, you know, had a hands on. And I'm looking and saying, Well, I can glory in my team success. But I'm totally separated from this. And it was the insight of my manager at the time, and dream. And Jeannie, who's now at Netflix, she's headed leading design over at Netflix, and she saw an opportunity where you know, you're pretty good. You got some high emotional intelligence, right? You can calm them very voices down. There's a lot of this Patti Dobrowolski 11:57 Human punching bag, punching, and punching bag, and then you take it, and then you turn it into love. That's, frankly, that's human transformation. Mark Tippin 12:07 That's, that's right. Boundaries. Patti Dobrowolski 12:11 It's so true. It's so true. So true. Mark Tippin 12:13 Facilitator journey is dead. Right? You know, but that was a pivot where I realised now instead of trying to stay on top of JavaScript, and databases, and the mechanics of what the web is, yes, there's actually this whole other layer on top of it, which is understanding the right dialogue to have at the right moment. Is it generative, then when it's generative, you have all these ideas? You don't? Yeah, off on the back? You've actually got more work to do how to Patti Dobrowolski 12:42 Yeah, that's right. Mark Tippin 12:44 Understand? Patti Dobrowolski 12:45 Yeah. Mark Tippin 12:45 How do you elevate? How do you pick one thing out and experiment? Patti Dobrowolski 12:49 Yeah. Mark Tippin 12:49 So that you can start the loop over and put it back in front of the car. Patti Dobrowolski 12:52 I can't wait for you to get the game of innovation, that book that I'm part of that I did the illustrations for because you're speaking the language in that book that David Cutler wrote. So it's going to arrive in your door, I think on Friday, so look for that. It's really heavy, and it's colourful, I think you'll like it. Oh, yes. This idea of elevating the right things at the right time in a meeting is essential, or even in a conversation that you're having around the dinner table, right? How do you get to the place where people are actually talking about what's real? Mark Tippin 13:23 That's right, and creating openings for that to happen. And being sensitive to the fact that people are cognitively different, you know, we've inadvertently found these delightful things that happen when the pandemic forced a new set of circumstances on this. Patti Dobrowolski 13:37 Yeah. Mark Tippin 13:37 Suddenly, the chat takes on a different level of importance with people that have something to say, but they don't want to interrupt the show to say it. So there are these multiple layers where people are contributing and getting a voice heard. Voting mechanism, and mural is anonymous. So right away, so much of the games we play in a colocated cohort to like, Okay, everyone, get it in your mind count to three, and then everyone go at the same time to try and remove the bias. Patti Dobrowolski 14:07 Yes, yeah. Mark Tippin 14:08 Follow the Leader. Well, it just happens now. Patti Dobrowolski 14:11 We have so I have the tools to do it. Right. And that's part of it. Well, what I love about that is in the evolution of what's happened with Mural, so for those of you that don't know what mural is, you should just Google it. Mural.co. And in there, you'll find isn't that what it is? Or is it yeah, Mural.co. And in there, you'll see that it's a virtual platform in which you can play and you can structure your meetings in such a way that you have much more engagement interaction you can, there are templates that you can pull in and you can do all kinds of design and, you know, I've been experimenting with using it with clients so that we can, I don't know deepen the conversation, but in both a visual and a audio way, auditory, right. Mark Tippin 14:59 Well, it's When the pandemic hit, there was a steep learning curve. And we don't acknowledge the ones that were suddenly there were, you know, adults who are also learning to be educators and nutritionists and everything suddenly. Patti Dobrowolski 15:12 Oh, my God. Mark Tippin 15:13 But even just coming up to speed on, you know, video conferencing tools, that was something new. And that helped. But I can see you and it's nice to see you, Patti. And it's Yeah, yep. Facilitator we definitely use it. Patti Dobrowolski 15:29 I mean, we always did conference calls, right? But they just aren't very valuable when you know, you can zoom, right? Or use teams are whatever platform they like, right? Mark Tippin 15:38 But you put this space in between us where we can both kind of reach through the glass and have something and now I can see what you mean. Right. You can actually, we can take any topic where we think we're aligned. Patti Dobrowolski 15:51 Yes. Mark Tippin 15:52 And you say, okay, cool. What's the order of that process that you think? Patti Dobrowolski 15:55 Yeah, yeah. Put it into some semblance. Yes. I love that. Yeah. Mark Tippin 15:59 And that's not it at all. Patti Dobrowolski 16:02 Yeah, exactly. I wasn't saying that. Where did you get that idea. But I love that because I think, and I can't wait for technology to improve even more. And then now, you know, today, I went and bought a video thing. So I could use my iPad while I was working in Mural so that I could draw in a really great picture because I'm a live illustrator. So I often, even if I'm in mural, and I'm doing the zoom, I'm drawing right here, because you can see how vibrant that is to see it. And there's something about being able to use real pastel that people go, Oh, my God, that looks so fantastic. And what they don't realise is that colour imprints on your brain. And then if you really love something, even if you draw a simple picture that you love, you will remember it, you know, 80 times better than anything else, right? Mark Tippin 16:53 Absolutely. Patti Dobrowolski 16:54 And so if you take a snapshot, like sometimes we'll be doing a session, where I'll be learning some mural process, somebody will share something, and I'll take a screenshot, I'm like, Ah, my gosh, how did they do that? That's fantastic. Because of course, I want to draw it right. Mark Tippin 17:10 Well, I think all the methods, you know, that are generative, you get, you know, 16, 20 people in the session, you give them two minutes, and they each generate one note, a minute or more. Patti Dobrowolski 17:21 Yes. Mark Tippin 17:21 That's a lot of information density. And, so I always encourage people, because you can draw on the notes to as opposed to just typing texting, right. And even the simplest little rudimentary squiggle, your brain has vastly more capacity to differentiate and to remember the sights and smells and language in that moment, when the discussion happens. Patti Dobrowolski 17:44 That's right. Mark Tippin 17:45 Then the text and information density actually becomes parsable. When it's visual. Patti Dobrowolski 17:51 Yeah, yeah, I love that now. So I want to know, like, when you are just being you out there, and you're doing your job, what is your favourite thing to do? Well, if you had free time to do anything, what would you do? What do you do? Mark Tippin 18:09 So in my free time, I gravitate heavily towards music, just because that's usually so far aside of the work, the pressure, the commerce side of it, that that's interesting, and where I kind of recharge. But I am also very fortunate, I'm going to mispronounce it, but iki guy, right, this guy. Patti Dobrowolski 18:30 Yeah. So you've got that iki guy going, Mark Tippin 18:33 I took me 53 years to find out what I wanted to do with my life. And it's kind of right now, this unique situation, where I find myself is something I enjoy doing. I enjoy working with people understand the problems, laying out a sequence of conversations or methods, if you want to call it so that you harvest the collective genius in the room, right? I love that moment. I discovered I didn't have to have all the answers. I just had to create the space where the ideas would come from the people in the discussion, and trust the process that we're going to do something amazing. Because I value you and we're creating a space where we can kind of open up and share and be authentic and the radical candour and call BS on each. Patti Dobrowolski 19:19 Yeah. Mark Tippin 19:20 All in the service of being passionate about the challenge. Patti Dobrowolski 19:24 Well, it's been hardest for you in this virtual environment. You've been in what's been hardest for you. Mark Tippin 19:31 I'm not very good with names. And organisational savvy is something that it's a tool that if you can bring up names on the fly, I was always the slow thinker, the one who, you know the bully at school says the mean thing and like two hours later, I'm riding the bus. Patti Dobrowolski 19:50 I shouldn't say this, that I know how to get that guy back. Mark Tippin 19:54 So that facility with the names I can draw them. I know what they look like I know what they had before. Breakfast in their favourite candy bar. I know all this stuff, but like the names that elude me. And so, but names are important, and they are a way to engender respect and start that creating that space of acknowledgement and everything. Yeah, so that's one of the things where I do a lot of extra heavy lifting. Patti Dobrowolski 20:18 I was gonna say, Do you ever do that, you know, when I started to run virtual sessions, where we didn't have zoom, and it would just be me with the phone. And then I'd have all my trainees there, you know, I would write and draw a picture of them what I thought they might look like on a post it and I laid them all out on the table in front of me. See, there it is. Because I think sometimes, well, it really does matter to people that you remember their name. Mark Tippin 20:43 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 20:44 It also matters that you remember things about them, like I was on a, I don't know where I was, but the person I was interviewing was talking about how you could tell if somebody really cared about you enough to remember your children and their names. And I thought, Oh, my God, like, that was like a stone, like hitting me on the head. And I was like, Yep, you're gonna remember her son's names. That's all there is to it. You're gonna go find them out. And then you get to see what they're up to on Facebook, because you can find him and go from there. Right? But I think it does matter. Especially wouldn't you say, mark in the world where it's so chaotic right now with all the stimulation. People are? They're very distractible. Mark Tippin 21:26 Absolutely. And the smallest kindnesses are really felt now, I mean, I'm, I got, you know, a handwritten thank you note for a kind of relatively innocuous thing. And that was, I mean, that completely made my day because I understood that someone had to have the presence of mind actually be thankful enough to stop their FOMO and Twitter, whatever to stop and write something and find my address somewhere, yeah, put a stamp on it. So little things do matter. And I think that's part of this massive, great recalibration, or whatever we're going to call it is, people are kind of pulling out of the 80s, meaning keeping up with the Joneses, and all this kind of consumers data control stuff and getting present to what really matters. And people want to have value, and they want to be doing things that are of value. And I think we're in a hinge time between a market economy where we still got to make money, but we're shifting towards a mindset economy. Patti Dobrowolski 22:30 Yeah. Well, we knew this was coming. Right. So you know, I think Malcolm Gladwell, or one of them, you know, predicted this, that they would be a mindset economy, although they didn't use that term. I don't know. You probably coined that term, but I like it. He's got a book right here. He's gonna show it to us. Mark Tippin 22:47 Well, it's Yeah, yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 22:49 Oh, yeah. Fantastic. Collaborative intelligence, if you didn't catch that book, when he held it up, for those of you that are just listening in the podcast, collaborative intelligence. And so when you think about where things are going and headed, what are you excited about? What excites you and get you up every day? Mark Tippin 23:07 Well, it's funny that this comes up occasionally, when we you know, I talk with other facilitators, and I'm curious what drives them as well. For me, it's fairly simple. When I was leading these workshops with Luma. Patti Dobrowolski 23:18 We were playing what Luma is for those people that don't know who Luma is, or they're not in that world, yeah, me who's Luma. Mark Tippin 23:25 So Luma Institute was founded as a spin out actually from my a design that was acquired by Boston Consulting Group and dear friend of mine, Mickey McManus, he's the author of trillions, and he's very much. Patti Dobrowolski 23:37 Dropped just then just catching up. I just want you to know his friend, Mickey. Mark Tippin 23:44 So yeah, someone who'll occasionally take my phone call when he um, I swear lives in the future. And you'll come every once a while go, you should be looking at thinking thinking, Well, I love that I love that. They were running these workshops that you and I would recognise today as kind of human centred design thinking workshops, and clients were saying, this is fantastic. Could we learn how to do this? Patti Dobrowolski 24:03 Yes. Mark Tippin 24:04 And most consultancies, when faced with that challenge would go, Huh, we teach you to do it, then we cannibalise our revenue. But there's a third way and what they did is they actually founded and spun out a complete separate entity that focused on teaching people to fish and so Patti Dobrowolski 24:19 Yeah, yeah. Mark Tippin 24:20 Chris Patagonia and Bill Lucas and Pete Mahara are the founders. And they went and looked at 1000s of design thinking methods. And everyone at the time, if you remember, you go to Amazon and do a search for a book, you'd get two books that would show up 1001 design thinking methods and exactly another 1001. It was just like, where do you start? Patti Dobrowolski 24:43 Well, exactly. Mark Tippin 24:44 They boiled it down to a very neatly done taxonomy that really, it kind of is steeped down to the essential ways of if you think of their name, Luma - looking, understanding, making, and activating right. Patti Dobrowolski 24:59 Fantastic. Mark Tippin 25:00 So yeah, that process of actually going and observing, so user research and those kinds of. Patti Dobrowolski 25:05 Versus a mall, which is backwards activating, which is most what most people, myself included being an activator, we're gonna get going first and then go backwards and figure out where you blew it. Right? Hello. All right. So that's who Luma is. And so part of it when you think about the future, then what inspires you about that and where things are going, I'm sorry, I distracted you from that direction. So bring us back there to the future you. Mark Tippin 25:32 My Ravel brain? Patti Dobrowolski 25:34 No, no, no, I'm refocusing because I went down that rabbit hole with you. I led to the rabbit hole, and then I pointed go down. Well, you, Mark, please tell us about Luma. And then everything else. Okay. All right. So the future that you're excited about? Mark Tippin 25:50 So the future I'm excited about is I've seen firsthand how those that could afford it would get the benefit of these types of workshops and the education and a company that would buy in and fund steeping in this wonderful Bronto of design thinking. And yes, but every time I was in the Uber heading towards the big, shiny building on the hill, where I was doing my workshop, I'd see all of these small businesses. Yes. Now I wasn't sitting there thinking I can save them. Patti Dobrowolski 26:20 Oh, no, no, no now, but yeah, but we're thinking, what can we do to help these businesses be successful? Mark Tippin 26:26 Exactly. So the democratisation of access to guided methods and a platform where you and activate their conversations that help you actually get to well framed questions, or exhaustion is makes all the difference as a credit question gets you a lot of clarity, none, Patti Dobrowolski 26:46 Right, right. Mark Tippin 26:47 Framing it in a way where you go, that's a problem we're solving is the beginning of an amazing journey that you can invite those people into, and it changes everything, it changes. Patti Dobrowolski 26:57 I love that. And so if you're not a design thinking person, it's really about framing the problem in a lot of ways, and then ideating a solution to that problem. And then iterating, anything that you mock up to make sure that it actually works, because most of the time, you know, we create things in our basement. And we know that our mom loves them. So they've got to be good for the rest of the world. And we come up with these things. And then no, they're not. But when you can actually test things and try them come up with a real problem that you're solving, then you come up with something like Uber, that's what's true. And then you can compare it to lift, and you can see how they're different. And one has its own built in mapping software so that you know, it's not outsourced and things like this. These make a big difference. So you're excited about this part of the future. Your people, entrepreneurs understand design thinking. Mark Tippin 27:58 Yeah, I mean, each have our own sphere of influence, right? Patti Dobrowolski 28:01 Yeah, well, okay. All right, well, then, let's test this with you. So what's the biggest problem that you've been solving? Mark Tippin 28:08 So recently, I designed the XU love, I shaped herself, she has a wonderful thing that, that she convenes every once in a while. Patti Dobrowolski 28:17 Who? Say again, say again. Okay, good. Mark Tippin 28:21 She's known as the Queen of toilets, because she's an adult. But the challenge that she said, you can plug anything you want into that statement. So the x is a variable. And I said it was a family dynamic, was the thing that we went through. And so part of it is two years into a pandemic. And we all feel like Bill Murray, in Groundhog Day hitting the clock and going he over and over and over again, how do you actually intentionally create a dynamic in the family that is really your closest to and provides you the support? And that should actually be the best? And sometimes it's put under the strain? Because it's the one you assume will always be there? Patti Dobrowolski 29:02 Or yes, you take it for granted. Mark Tippin 29:05 Take it for granted. And, you know, humans are humans and that isn't a. Patti Dobrowolski 29:09 No, no, you have to create something there. All right. So that led you to understand. Mark Tippin 29:16 Yeah, so that led me to understand that, that it's not the kind of the Hail Mary, you know, oh, can I order that off Amazon? Can I fix that with you know, I actually have to go put some intention in there. Patti Dobrowolski 29:27 Yeah, yeah. Are you talking about your family right now? Right. Mark Tippin 29:30 No, yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 29:31 Oh, okay. Good. Cuz you know, you're a guy. So you're talking around this, and I want to go in? Oh, I like to get a deep. So you're talking about your family. It's interesting, because I was telling my wife this morning, I was saying, you know, this pandemic brought us closer than we've ever been, and which is kind of a miracle because she's commanded, I'm demanding, you know what I mean? And that was the dynamic when we first got married, we had to have command cards. And on one side they would say command and on the other side, they would say I don't even remember what it was, but it was something like truth or ask or you know, I don't know what they, you could only got a certain number of command cards before they were taken away and you couldn't. You couldn't do it anymore in a day. That's right. Well, yeah. Mark Tippin 30:15 Even acknowledging one of the reasons why the dynamic works is because my background and my family, a lot of talking a lot of stuff being said, a lot of verbosity and loquacious. pneus. And you know, and. Patti Dobrowolski 30:31 If you know what that word means loquacious, yes, it's a lot of talking. Mark Tippin 30:35 Talking, talking incessantly. But actually saying stuff of impact or. Patti Dobrowolski 30:40 Yeah. Mark Tippin 30:41 And a lot of circuitous type understanding. Do they mean that? Or should I say this to suggest that so, you know, whereas to the point? Patti Dobrowolski 30:52 Yeah. Get down to it, honey. I mean, you're going on and on about that enough context? Get to the point, right? Mark Tippin 30:58 There is something well. Patti Dobrowolski 30:59 Yeah. Mark Tippin 31:00 Yeah, say what you mean, you know, it's a journey. And you know, certainly in the job that I do and what I'm asked to do as a facilitator, this kind of verbal grease is sometimes helpful to draw in the shy folks and all that kind of stuff. It can border line on abusiveness, if you just. Patti Dobrowolski 31:17 Do it too much, if you do it too much. Yeah, yeah, like this. I love that you're talking about this, because as a facilitator, it's a fine line that you walk between telling a personal story, and actually getting them to talk to each other and talk to you. And sometimes you do it, tell the personal story to break the ice, or to let them know that you are credible, I was thinking about that credibility, or you set it up in a way where you create a problem for them to be thinking about right then. And can you how many of you can relate and you haven't raised their hand. So this is a way engagement technique, right? But you can't do that with your family. You know, with your loved ones, you have to really ask them a question, and then listen to what they have to say. And stop trying to solve the problem. Just listen, right? Mark Tippin 32:10 Absolutely. And they know all your tricks, right? I did this with my dad, where we got to the point where he'd start. He'd say the first three words, and they go, yeah, that story. 42. Now that story 147. Yep, we've heard them all. And my family is now I'm getting the same treatment like, yeah, you know, you've told me that before. Patti Dobrowolski 32:11 I know it, I know it. Well, it's good to peel back the layers of that stuff, I think to get to, you know, it's okay to sit in silence. I think this is so hard for people to, you know, this is what we did before we had the internet. And our phone is that people would actually have a conversation, they would enjoy the meal, they would sit in silence at night, and they might read a book, you know what I mean? And these are, what this is about is a certain kind of stillness that we've moved away from, what do you think of that? Mark Tippin 33:04 I heard recently just reminded me, I need to find the author of the quote, but it was a silence as a sound of trust. And I thought that's interesting. Patti Dobrowolski 33:12 Silence is a what? Mark Tippin 33:14 Is the sound of trust of trust? Yeah, super uncomfortable. And but, but yeah, and what you're talking about with enjoying the meal, there is, I can't believe I made it, you know, into my 50s. Before learning, nutritionally, what happens when you actually eat slower, and why it's important to breathe while you eat. Patti Dobrowolski 33:35 And masticate frequently, I mean, like you're supposed to chew, remember, when they told you, you know, you chew it 50 times, or 25 times or 30 times. But in fact, the healthier digestive system. Mark Tippin 33:48 You're actually the oxygen you're putting into your body while it's doing the work down there isn't putting more fuel, oxygen burns, you're actually putting more oxygen into the stuff that your body is storing, and making it higher quality? I was like, I feel like there's an instruction manual. Patti Dobrowolski 34:06 Yeah, I think that's your next book. You know, you've written all these other books, so why not write that book? Because that book I think people would be very interested in? Mark Tippin 34:16 Well, I would basically, it would be a list of other people's, Mark, David. Patti Dobrowolski 34:20 Of course, I was gonna say like, really whatever. And it would be based on what your preferences because everybody, you could follow one person's expertise or another, and everybody's body is different. And to me, this is about even as we try to pivot from one thing to another. What I want to do and pivot into is going to be vastly different from maybe even the person I was yesterday. Does that make sense? And so I've been trying to treat these different, you know, years as a different person that I was because I think it's easier to understand that you are not your personality, that you can have a personality, but that you're malleable and you'll change all the time. And you for sure have changed because you were a guy who was in a punk band doing this. And then you were like UX expertise and now your strategic next practices at Mural. And, you know, I mean, so when you think about who that you want to step into, what would that who look like? Mark Tippin 35:30 Well, it's interesting as the hair gets grey hair, and as I'm, you know, reminded that there are more years between me and when I had a mohawk than I think there are in my head, I think there's a few more steps, I would love to see the emerging technology be developed in a space where the human relation, intelligence that happens, the things that facilitators do, and the methods or the conversations or whatever you want to package it, the technology allows people to step through a series of inquiries or input an output, that those things are actually seen as one and that the fulfilment of the lower half of the Maslow's hierarchy, which has been eroded our sense of belonging and a lot of cavities over the last few years that are preventing us from being that fully self actualized ready to go get them person, we need to do some healing there. But when you look at that, and inverts into another pyramid above, which is how do groups become actualized? Right? How do we go from being a GarageBand into being, you know, the Pat Metheny group or, you know, choose your own artists? That is at the peak as a team is at the peak of their practice. They have the skill in pocket, but now they're inventing and creating and. Patti Dobrowolski 36:49 Yeah, with freedom. And, you know, I think that's part of it. I love that. Sorry, did I interrupt what you're about to say? Because I felt like there was more. So it's like going from this GarageBand to the Pat Metheny group, or whoever it is Beyonce or whoever your favourite is, right. Mark Tippin 37:04 The point there being I guess the thing I've also factor in here is in I remember, the 70s gas lines, right? Cars backed up in gas shortages? Patti Dobrowolski 37:13 Yes, of course. So I was pumping gas back then I was probably filling your tank. Just FYI. That's right. Michelle, there I was, okay. Mark Tippin 37:24 We've had many opportunities to kind of address the big challenges that are central to survival as a species, and we keep kicking that can down the road. And so I don't know about you, but a lot of facilitated sessions, you seem to have a lot of the same conversations over again, okay, let's do another value statement. Let's do another team chart or something like so you can kind of waste a lot of time with conversations that are kind of fundamental. Can we get beyond that? And get aligned and really work in a like a teal sense or something about what is the good for us? Good for the customer? Good for the planet? Yeah, that's the thing that I read your Patti Dobrowolski 38:03 puppy, you know that your puppy profit people planet? Yeah. Okay, I love that I'm in on that. I also think that part of what I think that you are probably excited about too, is the thought that we could be in a virtual reality together, that next time that we are together, we are actually standing facing each other. We might have an Oculus on but we are standing there talking to each other in such a way that we feel like we are in a virtual space. And so that the Jetsons actually come into reality, this is my hope that in my lifetime, I can actually see that happen, you know, and that we are talking about things that matter. Not things that are superficial. Mark Tippin 38:46 Well, you hit that right on the nose, because the things that I'm most excited about. And we're experimenting, Steve Schofield, in our labs team is doing really interesting things. The things that I love is the VR tools are being handed not to game designers, not for another first person shooter. They're being handed to facilitators. Patti Dobrowolski 39:04 Yeah. Mark Tippin 39:04 They're coming up with immersive, shared experiences around these well framed questions. Patti Dobrowolski 39:10 Yeah. Mark Tippin 39:11 Those are games worth playing. Patti Dobrowolski 39:13 Definitely, I'm with you there. Now, if you were going to, if you were going to give any tips to people that were listening, now, you've pivoted a couple different times in your career. So but if you in this day and age, if somebody is out there that needs to make some kind of a change, what tip would you give them? What would you suggest? Mark Tippin 39:33 You need to find someone that you can trust, who will call you on your BS, and you know, and tell you a real friend, right? One that'll let you get away with it until it's not good for you to get away with it, and then they'll call you on it. And you need to find out more ideally, if they're people you actually work with. If it's a job pivot that you're talking about. You can do a personal pivot or there are all sorts of pivots, but you need feedback on how they see you what your superpowers are that you're probably not present to, or you don't value because it's very easy for you. And it can be eye opening. And that was a huge pivot for me at Autodesk. And another thing we did was having only deal with the positive. We weren't critiquing. We were just like, here's what's amazing about you got to share it with other people. And there were tears, it was very emotional. Patti Dobrowolski 40:22 Yes. Mark Tippin 40:23 But we're, like, suddenly present this amazing thing that people valued them. Patti Dobrowolski 40:28 Yeah. Mark Tippin 40:28 That thing. And that allowed me to drop my panic over staying on top of the tech and being able to code. And I realised, that's not my value, my value is in this other emerging facilitation thing. It's in the taking those skills about the empathy and the team building and the creating that space for the conversation and having enough of an interest of curiosity and the background. Yeah, to be able to create that space. Yeah, that was a fundamental pivot that it is, yeah, is a side gig. Patti Dobrowolski 41:05 Well, and I would say that, that in a way that your superpower that you can't see, right, it's on a door. And all you have to do is have somebody's point, sometimes to the door, and then you just walk through it and see what's in there. And that I think, is the beauty of life is that you have these, you know, reflective tools that you've surrounded yourself with, these are people, but they actually are a great reflection of you because water rises to its level. So you're always going to be surrounded by people who reflect some part of yourself, even if they irritate you, that's part of you. And so if you can figure out how to get feedback from them, and learn from them and grow, I think this is like, that's such a great tip Mark, I love that. I have to say, I have loved spending time talking to you. And I felt like we just got to one little piece of it. But I would love to as I and continue to open up the mural box and see what else is in there. And then we go into more of a VR space, I want to come back here. And then I want to talk about that. Because that in and of itself is something very exciting, that I'd love to get your perspective on. Mark Tippin 42:18 I'd be happy to anytime, Patti. Patti Dobrowolski 42:21 All right, well, I loved having you here, Mark, and you know, everybody that's listening, be sure to look in the show notes. So you can figure out how to get you know, connected with Mark and follow him you know, see what he's up to on Mural, he just, you know, spoke at a big conference. So you want to see and follow him on LinkedIn because he's doing a lot of cool stuff, and always posting something interesting. So I look forward to seeing you again, Mark, thanks for spending time with us. And you know, everybody out there you know what to do? Go out there and until next time Up Your Creative Genius, right? Mark Tippin 42:55 Right. Patti Dobrowolski 42:59 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Gayle Edwards is an International, award-winning Global Impact & Personal Brand Strategist, Best-selling Author and Speaker who works with Entrepreneurial and Corporate "Square Pegs" to help them build their identity and authority within their marketplace! More than that though, Gayle is a power-full and intuitive Teacher and Healer who uses her gift of recognising ‘stuck energy' to help her clients release it so they are able to communicate with confidence, clarity and conviction! If you do nothing, things stay exactly the same as they are! Gayle shows you how to become THE EXPERT in your industry rather than just another expert! Timestamp 1:47 Gayle's journey into Brand You Consultancy 15:10 Gayle shares her opinion on how technology has changed the world 16:37 Shaping the collaboration 18:24 People who influenced Gayle in her life 23:48 Gayle's definition of intuitive impact entrepreneurs 31:08 Daily routine that Gayle practices 35:00 Gayle's favorite book and tips on pivoting in life and getting through challenges Social Media Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandyouconsultancy/ Website https://brandyouconsultancy.com/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life.  Hey, everybody, oh my gosh, I have Gayle Edwards here. She's an international award winning global impact and brand strategist, a speaker and author. She works with intuitive impact entrepreneurs and purpose driven organisations to help them build their brand and leverage their identity to claim authority and dominate the marketplace.  Gayle, I can't believe you're here. Like I really she's like the founder of Brand New Consultancy, and she combined her spiritual gifts with 30 years in brand marketing, communications, trainings and coaching. And I just want to say we met in clubhouse because we both felt that someone in the clubhouse needed our help, she was able to help them. I don't know what happened to me. I got lost in the fray of it. But it was fantastic. Gayle, I can't wait to talk to you. Welcome to the show. Gayle Edwards 01:37 Thank you so much, Patti. And I'm so honoured and humbled to be here with you today. I'm looking forward to this exchange of wisdom actually, Patti? Patti Dobrowolski 01:47 Yeah, I know, well, because we never really got to talk just for that little brief moment. So and I've been in clubhouse where you've just dropped all these bombs of wisdom on people and you just pour into people. That's how you are. Well, how did you become that? I mean, tell everybody that's listening. Tell us your story. How did you start off doing this and then start doing what you're doing now? Gayle Edwards 02:13 Well, actually started when I was very young. So I'm a big believer that we teach what we most need to learn. Okay, so helping people to get really clear about who they are, you know, what their message is? How are they going to impact? How are they going to extend that impact.  So it's no surprise that I didn't know how to do any of that. And I, I did not know how to do any of that from a very young age. You know, I grew up learning to speak when I was quite old, I was about four, when I first got in sentences, which has been quite late. There was nothing wrong with me, I just didn't want to talk. Patti Dobrowolski 02:55 And you talk so much now that we're making up for now, which is fantastic for all of our listeners, yes. Gayle Edwards 03:05 But what that did to me, is that it made me very observant. Number one, so I became really good at reading people. I would find ways of communicating with them without having to open my mouth. Because that's what it does. It just makes you really communicating.  However, it also made me quite insecure, and very self conscious, as well. I was always the quiet kid. So you can imagine when you're in your own world like that, when you're isolated. My escape was books. So that really fired off my imagination. It really helped to strengthen up and broaden my vocabulary, as well. So by the time I was speaking, by the time I got about five, six, and started speaking, I was actually a very good speaker. A crippled with self doubt. Patti Dobrowolski 03:57 Yes. I bet, oh my gosh. Yes. Wow. Okay. With self doubt. Gayle Edwards 04:07 You know, still very shy in school. And that's, you know, that kind of really started to pay out even more. And I didn't know what I wanted to do for a career, but I knew I still really liked people because I was good with people because, yeah, it's only time so much time observing them. So I started off my career working in PR for the media. See the big BBC over here? Oh, my God. Wow. Patti Dobrowolski 04:38 Beat him off over the BBC. Yes. Gayle Edwards 04:40 Exactly. And that in fact, I used to be the BBC Proms press officer god. Yeah. You know, so that really helped my confidence. Patti Dobrowolski 04:49 Yeah, I bet. Gayle Edwards 04:50 You can't work in the media and not really, especially back then in the 80s. And also being in the BBC as a young black woman. Wow. You know, I was very distinguished or distinctive, you know, like now we have, you know, lots of diversity and inclusion, whatever. So I was very distinctive. So, because I didn't want to stand out any more than I was already standing out, and made myself confident, I became the way out. Patti Dobrowolski 05:16 What did you just act the role and then step onto it. Gayle Edwards 05:21 There's a saying that I absolutely love. And that is act as if you don't force Yeah, I don't like fake it till you make it because that does. Yeah. But act as if, and I always, you know, thought, Okay, if I was, and remember, this was the 80s. And Patti Dobrowolski 05:39 I know, yes, I'm there with you. We're probably around the same age. I'm gay. Yeah. Yeah. Gayle Edwards 05:45 So it all sounds like okay, well, if I was this successful TV media person, how would I be and that's what I didn't? Patti Dobrowolski 05:56 Yeah, fantastic. I love that. I feel like that's how my whole life has been, like, I'll just take on a role. And then I'm a business consultant, then I'm an illustrator, then I'm an actor, then I'm, whatever the moment needs, you have to step into it. And that as if principal, I think, is one of the most powerful things you can do to become more of yourself, right? I mean, to be stepped into a bigger room, don't you think?  Once you do that, you're like, Okay, if I can do that, I can do anything, if I can command the room for the first time. And I would always say to myself, you know, before, when I would first go on stage, and there, there'd be like, 1000s of people in the room, I'd be like, okay, so you only have to do this for the first time once. And then after that, so just imagine that you're on the backside of this, and it's so fantastic. And then I just go into it, you know? Gayle Edwards 06:48 Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, through that time, I had this real unsettling feeling, you know, when you just feel something's not right. Patti Dobrowolski 06:58 Yes, yes. Gayle Edwards 06:59 And loved my job, you know, lose jobs quite frequently, because I was able to in the 80s, you know, me you know, and I worked at various TV production companies and fashion or whatever, but I always felt you know, there's something more. Patti Dobrowolski 07:20 Something more something else. Yeah, yeah. Gayle Edwards 07:22 I spoke to my dad about it. God rest his soul, I suppose my dad at the time, and said to him, I know that want to do more, but I'm not quite sure my parents, they were immigrants from the Caribbean. And you know, they vote very firmly believed in you got a job and you stayed there for. Patti Dobrowolski 07:39 That's right. Because the safety net, right. Gayle Edwards 07:41 It's a safety net. Yeah. Really. You need to sort yourself out. You know? Patti Dobrowolski 07:48 You really need to sell yourself out. Yeah, you do. I can't tell you how many times my parents tried to make me do that. Oh, that didn't work. Yeah. Well, anyway, so then what happened? What you do and you got Gayle Edwards 08:03 I just, you know, we kept having this conversation. He said, Look, all I know, is just you just get a job that you love doing, then you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. No, I just like talking. No one's gonna pay me to speak. You know who's gonna make cuz I love to speak to people. Patti Dobrowolski 08:25 Yes. And you're good to speaking to people. Gayle Edwards 08:28 And I like speaking into people. Patti Dobrowolski 08:31 Yes, yes. Yes. Gayle Edwards 08:32 People will come to me with the challenges and yeah, they might as well and I love speaking into that, you know, and then I discovered this wonderful thing called coaching. Yeah, oh my gosh, you pay me to give them advice. You don't actually give them advice scale, you know, you kind of help them. Patti Dobrowolski 08:55 You help them pull themselves up. But Gayle Edwards 08:58 Yeah, I just love this thing called coaching. And I literally just dove in headfirst, I was all over and then NLP and then EFT tapping and, you know, and hypnosis and all kinds of different therapies or modalities or resources, I started adding to my toolbox. And all the time. I was getting more and more results with the people I was speaking to in terms of they were starting to notice. Patti Dobrowolski 09:24 Yes, I bet. Gayle Edwards 09:25 Change, you know, real. Yeah, the transformations were going. I was just playing with it at that stage. You know, yeah. Someone say to me, Oh, girl, you do that NLP thing. And I don't like spiders. And I'd be like, Yeah, let's play. And then, you know, sometime now, I mean, they'd be like, You know what, I actually took a spider out of my bath the other day and I'm like, wow, this stuff works. You know. Patti Dobrowolski 09:54 I love that. I love that because that's when you experiment with things then you learn about about it, they learn about it. And it's all I mean, that's what's true when you're coaching anybody is you're always coaching them on what you're learning right now. You don't like coach them, like there are some things you pull through from the past because you know that they're standard and they work and it's consistent. But the most exciting part of coaching is when you're doing something brand new. Gayle Edwards 10:23 Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there was a lot going on at that time. And I knew that, that nine to five employment road wasn't really for me. So I made the decision to just jump. You know, it was after actually I attended a conference in the state of New York in Westchester. And it was nothing like we had in the UK at the time, it was called African American women on tour. It was hosted by SP magazine. Patti Dobrowolski 10:53 Now nice. Gayle Edwards 10:54 We didn't have anything like that in the UK. And I was completely in thrall, I was mesmerised. And all I remember was one lady came on stage. And she was hosting a workshop and she came on, she looked so beautiful. She was the vivacious and vibrant. And she walked on stage. And she said, I'm going to be 50 next birthday. And I've only got one regret in life. And that sort of only been living a life of purpose for 12 years. And I did a quick, dirty calculation. I thought, I'm only 34. She was 38. I've got time. Well, I came back handed in my notice there and then, and I've never looked back since that was 22 years ago. Patti Dobrowolski 11:35 Oh my god, that's so fantastic. That is so fantastic. That is amazing. Gayle Edwards 11:42 That's kind of like how I got to be this entrepreneur, how I got to be doing what I'm doing now. With? Patti Dobrowolski 11:49 Yes. Gayle Edwards 11:49 I learned all the coaching techniques and all of that stuff. But I was actually quite frustrated with coaching. Because sometimes I just wanted to take someone say no, you are more than this. You've got the answer. Patti Dobrowolski 12:00 Yeah. Right. Gayle Edwards 12:01 I really wanted to be involved in genuinely having an impact in the chat with their transformation. So I started to do other than just coaching, I started to blend it. And I always tell people that I'm not your traditional coach, you know, I'm that person, that is the proverbial kick up the bum. I am. Yes, you know, let's try this, or let's try this. I'm going to listen. But I'm also going to genuinely hold you hold your hand and help you. And you know, messaging because I've been in marketing and media and branding and communications for so long. Patti Dobrowolski 12:38 Yes. Gayle Edwards 12:39 I found that people just couldn't talk about themselves. They'd have all these wonderful ideas that have these wonderful businesses even. But the moment you ask them to speak about it, they've come up. Patti Dobrowolski 12:50 And they would and then they these little tiny things would come out and they'd be all Bumbly and kind of confused. And then you'd be left thinking to yourself, Geez, that didn't go very well. Yeah, you see, and then too, they think How come that happen? You know, how could I be so afraid that I couldn't totally express myself articulately and tell you in a nutshell on an elevator, right? Gayle Edwards 13:12 Absolutely. And then, you know, lots of people don't like the elevator pitch and, and I thought no is more than that began. Scripted, you know, and I was running networking events at that time. And when people use it themselves, they were holding up a piece of paper. And they were saying. Patti Dobrowolski 13:28 And reading their cue card or giving a talk. I'm like, please. Gayle Edwards 13:32 I don't need that, you know? Got it. You just need the confidence to say it. And that was where it started. And that's how I developed my standing up in your own hallelujah programme. Yes, does that it helps people to be more of themselves more of your time. Patti Dobrowolski 13:52 Yes, that is so fantastic. And so now that brings us up to date right now. Right? So tell me what are you excited about right now? What's happening right now? Do you want to tell people about there are so many things happening right now? Well just give us all we want to know and then I'm going to ask you questions about them of course and you more you. Gayle Edwards 14:14 So I've just launched my own podcast as well during the offseason, which I'm very excited about. I've been talking about that for a while. Good actually, that's one of the that's one of my catchphrases. You know, we say to people I dare you. How willing are you today yourself to be awesome. So that's been really, that's fantastic. I've just gone into a great collaboration with which rich woman magazine or on their brand editor so starting to collect stories and build some great issues for that because they're offline as well as online. Also, the daring be awesome network, which is a new way of networking. You know, we've been in this who knows what this has been the last time. Patti Dobrowolski 14:51 Who knows really? I'm not even gonna guess. Gayle Edwards 14:55 Exactly. But you know, networking as a result has changed. Yes, you have He's doing on online, we're starting to go a little bit out again now. So, but that has changed, because we're different. The whole experience. Patti Dobrowolski 15:10 What would you say is what you think how we're different? I want to know, from your perspective, how are you different? Gayle Edwards 15:16 So one of the things that I find is we're almost in this conundrum, you know, we've been so without proper, consistent human contact so long, that we're almost like, you know, we're grasping, we want that contact to get, but we're also wary, we're like, okay, so is this okay? You know? Patti Dobrowolski 15:41 Yes. Gayle Edwards 15:42 How are we doing this here? Patti Dobrowolski 15:44 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 15:45 Just from that basic level alone. So when you like, go put that same scenario into a networking scenario, you've got some people who want to genuinely connect, because that's how they connect with each other. Patti Dobrowolski 15:59 Yes, yes. Gayle Edwards 16:01 And then there are some who are a bit more standoffish. And so they will come across as being, you know, a bit more abrupt. That's going to change the dynamic. I've seen it already with some events, that changes the dynamic. So what I'm doing with the Daring Nielsen network, is I'm bringing people together so they can genuinely collaborate together. So they that closeness, it's not just about the networking, but it's about the collaboration. It's really working with each other. So now there's a connection, collaboration, and now we've got genuine relationships. Patti Dobrowolski 16:37 That's right. I'm so with you on this. Now, I think that so when we think about how it is that we really learn and grow, it's when we collaborate with people on stuff when we get together. And we figure out oh, yeah, you do this. And I do that, well, let's do this together, let's do an experiment together. And the best experiences I've had are collaborations where things are just wide open. Now, do you give them the opportunity to figure out how they would collaborate? Do you help create a construct by which that they get something to work on together? Do you give them a project? Gayle Edwards 17:14 So what happens is, so we have a little networking thing, period. Patti Dobrowolski 17:21 Speed networking? Are they in line? Gayle Edwards 17:25 So what they have to do rather than that standard? Oh, hi, my name is a, what they have to do. They have to give us one fun fact about their business. Patti Dobrowolski 17:34 Yes. Gayle Edwards 17:35 What is the challenge they're currently facing? Okay, good. So then we go off, we have a lovely lunch together. So they're really getting to know that. And then after much, they have to work on the challenge. So as a collective, they work on each other's challenges. Patti Dobrowolski 17:50 Oh, that's fantastic. Gayle Edwards 17:52 But now you've got all these people who you've suddenly got a team helping you the thing you are most, whatever that is, you having to go find a coach, but you've got a team of people who are sitting there, and they're giving you their feedback, they're giving you their input, they're telling you well, okay, that's a great idea that actually that does not, I can't see that would work. They're also able, because it's your ideas, every single person gets a chance to do this. So what they're also able to do is connect people with those outside of the room. Patti Dobrowolski 18:24 That's right. So you give them all your network you network with them about it's like people will often drop into, you know, I do a thing, if you want to connect with me just get into a 20 minute call. I see you have that too in your link tree, right. But people do and I'm just honestly connecting them to whoever they need. Because why not? Why not? That's the whole point. Is that because I think about. Don't you think about who influenced you like who did influence you and pull you in? Who influenced you and gave you that lift up? Gayle Edwards 18:57 So many people, the very first person to that woman that walked on that on the stage. I was at that conference because of another lady who was the keynote speaker who was a lady called Sabrina Jackson Ghandi. And she had written a book, which just landed in my lap at exactly the right time in my life, which was called sacred pampering principles for African American women. And I thought, even though I'm not African American, so back then.  It was fantastic. And because she was the keynote speaker, that's how I ended up at that conference. And that lady that walked across the stage that really grabbed me her name was Jill Diamond Taylor. Oh, yeah. Oh, honestly. And between the two of them, they were my Shiraz for a very, very long time. But then there were people here in the UK, who were really really influential and instrumental as well with my growth and my development, not just as a person but even as an entrepreneur just learning how to do business in a really professional way.  You know, people like Jatinder is the founder of the Athena network our time, you know, people like Pete, like Pico, and I absolutely adore pizza enthusiasm. I love to work works with people, you know, Dr. Marina, the founder of rich woman who just breeds belief into everyone, you can't help but be brilliant. Patti Dobrowolski 19:25 That's right. That's right, when people are filling you up with that kind of enthusiasm to I think, but you also must have had some peace inside that confidence from before that, as if, you know, stepping into it, than that must have helped you to in all those cases? Gayle Edwards 20:38 Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm very lucky because I come from a family of very strong women. Patti Dobrowolski 20:43 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 20:43 And, you know, my mom, and my answer were very, very, you know, instrumental in my upbringing, as well, actually just can do. Is that what you mean, you can't do that? Of course, you can. Patti Dobrowolski 20:55 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 20:57 So that, I've obviously got some of that as well, because, Patti, you know, what this journey is like, it's never all uphill. You know, it's great that we're having this conversation, we're talking about some great things that have happened, but we know that there are some awful things that are happening. Patti Dobrowolski 21:12 No doubt, no doubt. I mean, with people and things and places and money and all of it, you know, structure and you know, you expand your team, and then you can track the team based on whatever you learn and grow there. Right. And and I would say to have you come to those places where you get kind of stalled out in your business, and you're thinking now, what am I doing that? What am I gonna do that? Like that? Gayle Edwards 21:38 Absolutely. You have those periods where you think, this valleys deep, am I gonna get out of here? Patti Dobrowolski 21:46 Well, now, how do you get out of there? How do they get out of there? I'm curious how many? Gayle Edwards 21:51 There's two things that saved me on a daily basis. One of them is bathing. I absolutely. I know. But that's where I do my meditation. Yeah. And when I'm in the bath, and I'm either meditated. I just find something always sparks off. Always, you know, so most evenings, I would tend to end my evening, settle down for the night by having a bath. In the bath is where I also do my gratitude. It's become a real nighttime ritual for me. And it has been for many, many years now. So that really helps me. And I always think, you know, there's always tomorrow. But then the other thing is my daughter, and my daughter is nearly 20 Now, but she. Patti Dobrowolski 22:34 She's a young woman now. Gayle Edwards 22:36 Yes. Oh, yeah. She's young, you know, upon coming, but when. So her dad and I divorced when she was eight, nine, okay. And I remember going through really dark, dark, dark, dark time. And I used to have a programme at that time called the breakthrough diva. And I remember one day, one weekend, her and I was sitting on the sofa, and I was really miserable and upset. And I was trying to be, you know, upbeat for her. Patti Dobrowolski 23:05 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 23:05 And she said, Mom, I've just got something. She was about nine at the time. She said, Mom, I've only got one thing say to you, I said, What's that makes it? She said, You're either the breakthrough diva or you're not. And I thought, okay. Patti Dobrowolski 23:22 Okay, golden tougue wisdom coming right through that child to you. Gayle Edwards 23:25 Right off the bat. And even though I no longer run that programme, you know, to this day, that's what gets me through. I just remember because, Mom, you're either the breakthrough diva or you're not. And I think, you know, I'm going to choose to be the breakthrough diva through this moment, I am going to act as if that right. It always comes back to that. Patti Dobrowolski 23:48 Now one of the things that you describe yourself as you work with intuitive impact entrepreneurs, tell me what you mean by intuitive impact entrepreneurs. Gayle Edwards 23:58 Yes. And I choose those intuitive impact entrepreneurs because they are the people who show up who have these unexplained gifts. They don't know how they do what they do. You know, they just know that they're very good at doing whatever it is. And they tend to be people who are empaths. So they, you know, they really feel other people's energy. They're very sensitive, they tend to be highly sensitive. They tend to operate if they're business owners, they tend to be very heart lead.  No, they tend to be the therapists among us, the healers, people, they have such a big heart, they just want to give them they give and they give. Yeah, and person they never give to themselves. It was the person that's always last on their list is themselves. So and they're also who are the least structured. So when it comes to business, you know, they just want to give that give it away for free but then they realise they can't pay their rent or their mortgage. Patti Dobrowolski 24:54 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 24:55 Yeah, they're the people that really resonate with me, but cuz I know what that's like, because I've been in that situation. I know that slide. So what I do for them is I provide them with the structure, the business structure. With the both the branding and the brand help them build that personal brand around. Yes, really connect with them and understand because you know, out in the wider world, they have a reputation for being fluffy. Patti Dobrowolski 25:27 Okay, that's right. That's right. Gayle Edwards 25:29 But they're not fluffy. No. Okay. They are just so heart centred, that they want to wrap you up in fluff that they did, because they care so much. So I show them and help them and educate them as to how they can have a thriving business successfully, whilst they're speaking the language of those that need to hear them? Patti Dobrowolski 25:50 Yes, yes. I love that. And then do you work with them? One on one? Do you do group stuff? How do you like to work? Are you one too many? How does it work? Gayle Edwards 26:00 I love one too many buy also loved ones? Well, because even when I'm in a one to many situation, I'll still hone down on one. Because I love to see, I like to see the transformation right there in the room. But also everybody else can see. Yeah, and that's where the real magic is. Patti Dobrowolski 26:18 I love that. I hope you come to my city. So I can experience you in that way. Because I see you only I don't see you in clubhouse. But you know what I'm saying? And I think that this, for me, I'm fascinated with the transformation myself. I think, you know, if people understood that transformation, it's not an easy course. But if you know what you're going for, then it's clear.  Because you have to understand really, that yes, vision is out there. And you always have a vision, but the goals are the things that you want to get to. And that once you achieve something, then you can look back at who you were before you achieve the goal. And then you see, ah, I've made progress. And that progress gives you confidence. Gayle Edwards 27:06 Absolutely. You know, I have clients come to me for all sorts of things that you know, patterns come to me they say things like, my business isn't working. I'm not making any money. I don't know what to post on social media, you know, and it all comes down to the same thing. It always comes down to well, who are you? You know, who are you showing up as to your clients? Maybe they don't understand you. You know, who are you showing up as on social media? Yeah. And also, I'm also a big believer that everything works, but not everything works for you. Patti Dobrowolski 27:40 You know? That's right. It's true. Gayle Edwards 27:43 You got to choose what works for you. But well, maybe have great success out there. On Instagram. Yeah, that might not be your thing. Patti Dobrowolski 27:53 No, it might not. I mean, here's my being in a room with people networking like that. That might be the way but you're gonna know yourself and find yourself. Yeah, I think I think it's Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think everybody, there's so much selling that's going on in the world right now. You know, it just drives me crazy. And then when I have to sell something, I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry that I'm doing this. And I just need you to know this is happening if you want to come do it, right. But what's also true is that I realised this thing this year.  And I wonder how you feel about this, you know, like people, when they set goals that the New Year's, the way we did it before was it was a resolution of something that's of the past. So you can't really go set or future cast from that place. But also I realised that goals is not just about the what you're doing with your business or these other things. It's about, I mean, in terms of money and stuff, all of getting stuff together. It's about the feeling of well want to experience. Gayle Edwards 29:00 Absolutely, Patti, and that is what you know, if we're going to get really spiritual here, that's what, from the third dimension into the fifth into the fifth dimension, this feeling is the experience, and more and more people now have to give their clients an experience of them because, especially with the pandemic, you know, yeah, so people pivoted, there's that word, so many people pivoted, you've got people coming into your industry right now doing what you do, who've only been doing it for two years, 18 months, but because they're really have locked into the whole experience. Patti Dobrowolski 29:41 They understand how to create it. Gayle Edwards 29:43 There's the now they are getting the accolades that many people who were sitting the here before the pandemic, yeah, now looking at them thinking about, I know I've got more experienced them. Yeah, but you've been slow to the market. Yeah. We're trying to work in a Very old paradigm. Patti Dobrowolski 30:01 That's right. In the old paradigm, you got to get out of it, you got to step in, I and I would say this thing too, when I think about you, and I think about what you've done. Like, these are things. I mean, you and I, we sit on a lot of history, we've done a lot of things. That's all there is to it. But what we know is, and I know this must be true for you is that we are always trying to learn something new, we know we have to learn something new. Because otherwise, we're a dinosaur. Gayle Edwards 30:29 With Dinosaurs as it is much less now. Exactly. And giving it away. You know, so you have to stay nimble, you got to stay nimble, you got to stay flexible. And that's one of the things I love about clubhouse, because it allows you to listen to millennials and people from different parts of the world, how they're doing what they're doing is great. And, you know, if you're not flexible, if you just have this rigid way of doing business, it's not sustainable. No, not sustainable. You know, people literally go past you. Patti Dobrowolski 31:08 Yeah, yeah. Well, and when you're talking about this is the thing when you earlier you said this thing about Okay. I wonder people are different now. And I think this fifth dimension piece, this is what we're talking about, we're talking about expanded consciousness that people have stepped into a bigger room, and some people have and other people are still behaving as if it's the same. And that's the middle, that's where you're missing out.  The opportunity is that no, the world is different. It's broken open, and you either step into the open broken-ness of it, and you experience yourself as a new being in that, or you are going to be left behind on the train. And then that's what's true. So how do you step into every day with a fresh mindset? What do you do that helps you to be in that fresh? You take a bath? I know that what are you curious about or looking at right now that you think of?  That thing seems fascinating to me? You said your daughter, you showed up that thing? And then you said I'm going to think I'm going to do an NFT with this? And I was like yes, you are yes you are. And if those of you that are not listening that seven non fungible token, okay, you can buy and they're going to be trading and everything we own, there's going to be a non fungible token as Gayle Edwards 32:24 easy to going that way. Yeah, it is. For me, same way, I have an evening routine, I have a morning routine. So I tend to wake up most mornings, between sort of like half five and half, six. So you know, it's kind of like my normal time. And what I do, there's two things I do immediately to always have a glass of water straightaway. So that because I have. Patti Dobrowolski 32:45 Yes, we know that's good flush of system. Gayle Edwards 32:49 Always have my water bottle. And then I actually have zoom to remember I combine my spiritual gifts. So I'm very, very good at reading cards. You know, not Tarot cards. I don't I'm not really a big Tarot lover, who like angel cards, I tend to pull an angel card in the morning. I then tend to write my intention for the day based on your card. Patti Dobrowolski 33:16 Right. Gayle Edwards 33:17 And then I go for a walk. Because I love it. Yeah, and the right thing. At that time, the morn there's hardly anyone around. Yeah, so no word of life. Patti, as I'm walking around my street surrounded around you, they probably all know me. They're probably all twitching at their curtains. They Oh, there she goes. I've got my headphones. I've got my earphones in. And I am singing gospel music at the top of my voice as I as I walk, you know, and I love it.  Sometimes I'll do a little dance, you know. And I do that to three kilometres in the morning, come back. And I'm ready to start my day. And I absolutely love that. Because I wasn't always able to do that. You know, I used to literally be on my sofa all the time. You know, just before the pandemic. I was very sick. I have cancer, unfortunately. Patti Dobrowolski 34:08 Oh my gosh, I'm sorry to hear that. Gayle Edwards 34:10 Oh, fine now, though. Excellent. And fantastic. And literally as I came out of recovery, we went into lockdown. So there was a period where I was really unsure because I was like, What am I going to do? Because the world changed? Yeah, I was sick. The world changed. Okay. Yeah, I was able to do what a lot of people did. I mean, she thought okay, what are most people gonna want to do? Well, now they're working from home. A lot of people are now going to want to build this nursery. Patti Dobrowolski 34:41 Yeah, realise their dream. They're gonna want a baby. Yes. Yeah. Gayle Edwards 34:45 I thought you know what, I'm that girl. Yeah, you are? Yes, you are. So that's what gets me excited. So many people, you know, literally finally getting the chance to live their dream Patti Dobrowolski 34:59 Then yes, yes, yes, yes, I love that. And I think, you know, there's nothing greater than helping people to step into the reality that they've always dreamed about. And it's not that far away from you. So, you know, if you're listening, you have to understand that we're in your corner here, we're here to help you step into a bigger room, no matter what it is, even if you already are in that bigger room, and you're searching around and you don't know what it is, you know, pay close attention to the gifts that come to you.  And then be grateful for every little thing. You know, everything in your world without exception is there to help you grow. So, you know, get busy and keep growing. You're so incredible, Gail. So you know, alright, I always ask people like, What's your favourite book that you're reading right now? And what's a tip you want to give us about making change and pivot? Gayle Edwards 35:54 Well, funnily enough, my favourite book, and I think this is probably my favourite book ever. And I never ever thought I would say this about this particular person. But I've got to say, Will Smith's book, I don't tend to read biographies or things like that I normally read business books. And, you know, had you asked me maybe three months ago, probably would have said something like, you know, code of the extraordinary mind or something.  But Will Smith's biography has been amazing. I've read the paper version, and the audible version. And the reason why they are both experienced audio, it's like you're at a concert almost. Yeah. And the book, the paper version, you know, the pictures of his life in his family. It's an experience. Yeah, so that's my favourite. Patti Dobrowolski 36:45 That's fantastic. I love that. Gayle Edwards 36:47 And my tip, is just do it, you know, do yourself, as I say, Just do yourself, you can literally do anything, there isn't anything that we can't do. Yuffie The very fact that we came into this world, not being able to walk and talk and fend for ourselves, and now the majority of us are able to do just that. Yeah, that in itself is a testament to what we can do as humans. So if you can do that, when we're little, imagine what we can do now. We're big. Patti Dobrowolski 37:14 I know. And if you bring that childlike mind into everyone you do then you're always going to be curious, you're going to be excited. Everything's going to be like a puppy in the car waiting to go to the park. That's what you want to be. Yeah, let's go. I know, we're going somewhere exciting. My dog can't even hold himself back. He starts to squeak as soon as we get in the car. Oh, I don't know where we're going. But I'm gonna meet people, right? And so if you can have that beginner's mind about everything I just. Gayle Edwards 37:42 And you know, Patti, one of the other things I'm excited about is the obviously I also the International Academy of universal self mastery. And what they do, they really promote this idea of play. They call themselves a playground for conscious influences. And I would say a tip for self mastery, we've got a master our own cells. Patti Dobrowolski 38:03 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 38:04 Once we become more aware of who we are, it just opens us up to so much more. Really, really does. And we've got unity of people that are just like that. Oh, that's what happens. Patti Dobrowolski 38:19 That's right. That's it. The magic happens everywhere. And I love that you're talking about stepping into yourself, know yourself, understand yourself, grow yourself. And in that self mastery, then you find I think, liberation and freedom. You're free from the constraints of what anybody says or does because you trust and know yourself and you're aligned with the universe. And so you're doing and living your purpose every day and you definitely are sister.  You are incredible. Gayle. Oh my gosh. I just feel like this like Time flew. I'm getting back because this is so incredible. I can't wait to collaborate with you on something. I know that it would be amazing. So let's just hook up either in clubhouse, out a clubhouse. I don't care. But everyone if you're listening, just read the show notes and go follow Gayle Edwards. What's your handle on Instagram? We'll just say it right here. Gayle Edwards 39:17 Gayle.edwards.brandyou. Patti Dobrowolski 39:20 Yes, go there. And then I want you to just follow her and just follow her right into clubhouse if you want to hear some amazing things from her. Thank you so much, Gayle for your time. Gayle Edwards 39:31 Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure but you know it has gone way too quick. Patti Dobrowolski 39:38 All right, so we'll do it again soon then. I know we will. Okay, everybody you know the drill if you like the content, share it with your friends and until next time Up Your Creative Genius. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Bhavana Bartholf is an award-winning transformational leader and sought-after expert in the field of providing vision and accelerating Digital Transformation for corporations across industries worldwide. Throughout her career, she has served as a transformational leader, innovative technologist, STEM advocate, and ally for women and racial/ethnical minorities (REM). She has a proven track record for growing female/REM workforce while promoting diversity and inclusion and is dedicated to driving systemic systems to create inclusive work environments. In this episode Bhavana shares how she used her creative genius to become Microsoft's head of digital sales and strategies. It started with Bhavana trusting and being her authentic self. Bhavana explains how she was transparent with Microsoft about the work she wanted to pursue. Her secret to success was taking on projects that no one else wanted to take on, explaining it can only go up from here. 1:37 The story of Bhavana Bartholf 6:08 Moving to the US and her journey in Microsoft 13:25 How Bhavana manage stressful situations 19:13 Bhavana shares her duties on the boards 23:26 Changes that are moving in the right directions 24:12 Bhavana's life's vision 26:41 Tips on pivoting in life and getting through challenges Social Media Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/bhavanabartholf/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ SPEAKERS Bhavana Bartholf, Patti Dobrowolski Patti Dobrowolski  00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to Up Your Creative Genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski. And here we are with Bhavana Bartholf, the transformational leader and Chief Digital Officer of the commercial areas solution for Microsoft. I mean, I'm sure I didn't get that quite right, in terms of what it is that you do, but you build and land the sales strategy for $101 billion across the globe. So I am so excited to have you here. Because you're just incredible. I downloaded the bio, and I was reading it to myself. And this year alone, you received these awards from the Charlotte Business Journal, you know, the top 25 women in business, you are on the National Diversity Council, you've been doing so much as a stem advocate and advocate for women and people of colour. I just am so in awe of you. So welcome to the podcast. Bhavana Bartholf  01:32 Thanks, Patti, excited to be here. And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to connect with you as well, again. Patti Dobrowolski  01:37 I know I know. Well, it's really amazing to me, that you are in such an incredible position, and you're so dang smart. I think this is part of it that I loved. When I read through everything that you've done, you really embodied the idea of leader because to me, a leader is all about community and serving your community that once you serve other people and lift them up, which is what you're known for, then everything happens all doors open. But I'm sure it wasn't easy. You coming into where you are. So tell our listeners about you tell us your story. How did you get here. Bhavana Bartholf  02:18 Some of it, I will say a lot of it is how I was brought up. So I actually grew up in India, and actually grew up with my grandparents, my parents lived in different countries where it wasn't the greatest place for girls to grow up. And so yes, I had the opportunity to spend time with my grandparents. And I will say the biggest piece for me kind of what it was instilled in me, growing up was my grandfather came from nothing was a self made man. And so he always taught us that don't get comfortable with what you have, it can get taken away from you at any point in time. And so constantly make sure that you are earning your place that you show people respect regardless of you know, their background, where they come from. In an India, some of it also was based on how society is based on your stature from, you know, an economical standpoint, people are treated differently. And one of his biggest advices to us was that you treat everyone with respect. And I know we hear that common phrase of treat people the way you want to be treated. But he really emphasised the importance of people feel, you know, we need to make sure people feel valued. People are seen, and they're heard, regardless of, you know, age, colour, and you know, background. And so I think that part, I think started for me really young, growing up in India, and then the other big piece is also, you know, as a woman growing up in India, I think one of his biggest things is don't let anyone tell you what you can and cannot do. So choose. Patti Dobrowolski  03:41 Yes. Bhavana Bartholf  03:42 And make your own decisions. But to do that, you've got to be curious. And you've got to take the time to understand what it is if you make a choice and then own your choice, right? Patti Dobrowolski  03:50 Yes. And so what did that look like for you growing up? I mean, how was that experience for you to stand up for yourself and make your own choices? Did you get pushback from people? Were people always trying to give you advice and tell you you should do whatever right, get married have children that was your role? Right? So what an overachiever like you, what did that look like? Bhavana Bartholf  04:14 Well, I will say for some of it is when you know it's kind of one of those things when you have people in your corner they're standing up for you. I think it makes it a little bit easier to go against the grain when people either challenge you know, you and your thinking people tell you you can't do something because you hear that a lot. But that's not what we do. Because I just something as simple as when I was learning to drive. I crashed into a gate now I remember my mom coming in and saying tell me like you can't drive again. Like you know, you will watch for a while and my grandfather was like alright, so you want her to swim but she can't get to the water. Is that what you're actually telling her right I guess to constantly have like being in an environment and I know my mom was like, of course I wasn't gonna just keep it away but it was kind of one of those like, you've got to face the consequences. But I think that push up be curious and ask when someone says no, figure out why they believe you can't do it, and then educate them, right? Like there's an awareness component break it down, because maybe you can see that vision and state or big picture, but they can't. So you've got to help them get there. Because sometimes a lot of it comes from people's past experience of what they believe the system is set up for. And so a lot of it sometimes comes even when people push back, it comes from a good place right there. Patti Dobrowolski  05:28 Yes. They want to protect you. They want to protect it most of the time, right? Bhavana Bartholf  05:33 I think that was great for me in that context. I mean, I even did for my undergrad, I had done manufacturing in India, not a lot of women do it. Patti Dobrowolski  05:42 Love that. I love that. Bhavana Bartholf  05:44 Like, prove myself, right, like, which is like, Patti Dobrowolski  05:47 Well, why not just go up against the biggest, the biggest beast of all, manufacturing? Right, Bhavana Bartholf  05:53 It was a great expensive, so I will say I'm proud of the fact that I could actually weld, you know, I can build stuff, I could do things. I mean, it was never gonna try to do stuff at home. But it's great to be able to prove yourself and to prove to others that women can do a lot. Patti Dobrowolski  06:08 Yeah, yeah. And they can. So you finish your undergrad in India? And then you came over to the US? And then how did you get here? What made you come to the US? And what did you end up doing there? Did you just figure you wanted to go and continue your education there? Bhavana Bartholf  06:24 Yes. When I came to the US, I mean, at the time, I think a lot of folks, at least in my generation were either, you know, I wasn't an Indian, I knew just given to how we were raised and grown up. And, you know, we lived in a house also, when my grandfather opened it up to a lot of people. So we had people from all over the world that would stop by and visit people i Whether I knew them or didn't know them, it didn't matter. Like they always would come by and some of it was it was a philosopher that people would go see. And so my grandfather kept his doors open as people travelled through, right. And a big part of that. Patti Dobrowolski  06:55 I love that. Bhavana Bartholf  06:56 And it was one of those where you learned a lot, right, like, so you were exposed to so much. So young. And I think I always knew it was, you know, if I was going to do something, I wanted to be able to get out and go do it. Patti Dobrowolski  07:06 Yes, yes. Bhavana Bartholf  07:08 I did come to the US to do my master's. And I did do manufacturing engineering. And I remember when Microsoft reached out, my original reaction was like, I didn't apply at Microsoft, because I didn't like that background. And I remember doing the initial call, and you know, it's one of those like, you think, Oh, my God, am I being punked? Or is this somebody really contact, you know, company? And it was a great conversation. And the thing that I realised at that point, and what was the I think the initial person I talked to the recruiter, you know, asked me a bunch of questions very hypothetically, to, you know, I can't even remember what they were. But one of the things she said was, what would make you not consider a role at the company? And I said, if you're gonna stick me in front of a computer, and yeah, what all day and not talk to people, I don't think this is my job. And they still move forward, right? Like, and I hated the fact that they did that. And even when I did my actual interview, to kind of join the company out of college, make somebody came in the first person and asked me about some coding, you know, process and I was like, that's not on my resume. And that was a mistake made. But I'm happy. And what I loved about the company did was they focused on at the time, they still do, but we have a lot more, but they focus on potential and passion. And they changed the whole day. And I was one of the few folks that they told me at the end of that day that I got the job. And that was a phenomenal experience. The big like, I have none of the background that these people actually initially were looking.  Yes.  Would still believed that I was you know, I was someone worth investing in. Right? Patti Dobrowolski  08:47 So really now you're the chief digital officer. So you must have done something around that to be able to transition into such a big role over time. So how did that trajectory What did that look like? Bhavana Bartholf  09:01 So I think for me, I think the thing that I learnt early on, I think this goes back to kind of how I was raised. Patti Dobrowolski  09:07 Yes. Bhavana Bartholf  09:08 I was willing to take on either that project or that initiative that nobody else wanted to do. And I kind of my approach has always been if it's that bad, it can only get better but I think a lot of people look at it as if it's bad. Patti Dobrowolski  09:25 Bad, it's really broken. It's really don't even go there right? Yeah, that bad Give it to me bring it on. There's no down there's no further down to go so read only go up. So it's only gonna make the whole thing better. I love that. I love that. Bhavana Bartholf  09:43 And so early on, I was kind of in that thing of your give me the things that nobody wants to do. And I think even like my first day on the job, officially, I had, you know a person you know, who had called Microsoft and was going through a tough time personally versus I needed to do it than that. I became a call that was recorded, it was create a lot more chaos than it should have. But the biggest thing I learned was that as long as I could create a sense of human connection, and really listen to people, and then you get creative in how you solve for things, I think things can work well. And so that's been something I've been able to do it I've had the opportunity, and I'm truly grateful for right where I've been part of very different organisations, different teams, I've gotten reordered and moved around a lot, but a lot of it is someone believed that I'm capable of figuring it out. So I've gone into a lot of jobs and functions where I personally think I don't have any background. But to do something that you said earlier, what's important is, but I'm surrounded by extremely smart people. And, you know, capitalising and learning from those resources to collectively figure out how do we win together is one I think, is kind of, you know, empowering for everyone in the process. And two, it's surprising how quickly you can drive success when everyone feels like they're part of that process. Patti Dobrowolski  11:08 Well, and here's the common theme. So already, I mean, you keep saying listening, listening, you know, if you can listen to people and be curious, you can take yourself a lot farther, you know, and tell me, though, what are the commercial solutions areas? What does that mean? So that people that are listening, that are not part of Microsoft and big empire that it is, you know, that they know, what does it look like day to day, what you actually do? Bhavana Bartholf  11:35 The commercial solution areas is kind of our corporate function that is responsible for building and developing the technical sales strategy for globally across. Patti Dobrowolski  11:45 Okay, fantastic. All right. So that's what you're really doing is building the sales strategy for 101 billion, let's just put it there. That's right, I saw and in your LinkedIn profile, it says, who you report to in there. So you're not claiming that you're responsible for all of that? No, no, we get that we get that. But that is like a huge thing to be able to see so far into the future, in terms of where the commercial enterprise is going, and how you can expand it and continue to meet and be successful in that commercial space. Bhavana Bartholf  12:23 Yeah, and I think the biggest thing for us and I think this, everyone's dealing with this, you know, not just at Microsoft, but across different companies, right? Like, the world is changing faster than we can keep up with it. I think the pandemic obviously taught us the importance of being agile, thinking about how can you scale and be smart about how you actually do business? And then how can you be ready for the unknown? Right, and I think that's something that day in and day out, that's part of what this broader organisation and team at corporate is kind of set up to do is how do you cater and build the right strategy that helps, you know, our people, as sellers in the field, you know, enable and empower their own customers at the rate at across the globe and across different industries and markets. And so it's a fascinating and fun place to be of, you know, I haven't been in the role. It's been a little bit, it'll be close to a year that I'm in that role. But what I love about it is that you're in a place that's moving at a pace that's fascinating and keep up and I think those components make the job highly interesting. Patti Dobrowolski  13:25 Yeah, as you really have to be on your feet. I mean, you can't just sit and think that well, and this is what's true about Microsoft in the very beginning, you know, I was in illustrating some of those early cloud meetings way back in the day, when they were just talking about the sales team, how are we going to sell this? And can we deliver on our promise of what we're going to sell? And how do we do that? And you know, then to see it just grow and grow and become such a huge part of the business, really, almost all of the business, right? So I think that for you, when you think about what things that you called on in yourself, when you were kind of up against something that was challenging for you, what did you do? Or how do you manage the stress of the role that you're in the fact that you're female in a really high powered role? How do you manage those things? Bhavana Bartholf  14:17 You know, it's a good question, Patti, I think I'm still working progress and working through all of that, but I will say. Patti Dobrowolski  14:22 Aren't we All I don't think this is the endless story. Right. So. Bhavana Bartholf  14:28 I will say, so a couple of things, right. One of the things that I philosophy I have, you know, people that have known me my whole life know that I'm all about life's short to seize the moment and there's nothing that's what losing a day over right? Like just Yes, things are gonna happen. stressful situations happen all the time. But you've got to just lighten it up, right and figure out how you keep that whole process. Yeah. And folks that have worked with me and be part of teams that I'm on, they know we work hard, and we'll get stuff done. But oh my gosh, we will have fun through that whole process, right? Because if we can't laugh at ourselves, then we have an issue. And so I will say some of that, just that whole approach and building a culture around the teams that you're a part of, in that basic philosophy of anyone, including myself or anyone on the team, if you're in a tough spot, lean in, and you know, help anybody else out. And I think the biggest piece is, we don't want it to carry over to your personal lives, because the reality is, is whatever happens, you know, whether you're dealing with something on the personal side. Patti Dobrowolski  15:33 It's all integrated, it's not separated. That's right. Bhavana Bartholf  15:36 And so the whole thing is, you've got to just, I think, sometimes slow it down, I will say, you know, my husband is a psychotherapist, so it does help me. Patti Dobrowolski  15:44 Fantastic. You get therapy at home therapy at home, sometimes too much therapy at all. I'm a therapist, so I know too much therapy. At least listen, first, don't try to give me advice, please, thank you. Bhavana Bartholf  15:55 And sometimes I don't want the advisor to correct those components, I would say do it. Now I will say. And then you've got to figure out what's important to you. From a balanced perspective. Sometimes I have way too much energy in the morning. So I like to be able to, you know, work out, have that mental time to myself. And as my husband best jokes to me, he's like, sometimes he's like, when I'm watching stuff on TV. He's like, he's like, that is the worst stuff you could possibly watch. It doesn't matter. mindless, I don't have to think. And it gives me some time. So that when you are there for your kids, I have three kids know when you're there for your kids, for your family, and even for your work family, then your present because you have that time for yourself. So I would say the biggest learning for me over time has been, you know, as women, we tend to want to take care of the world and everyone around us. Patti Dobrowolski  16:41 Definitely. Bhavana Bartholf  16:41 And you know, when it comes to taking care of yourself, at least, you know, based on culturally how I was raised. You feel guilty. You think you're being selfish. And I'd say the biggest learning for me over time is that if I can't do what's right, me first, I'm not going to be able to take care of everybody else. Patti Dobrowolski  16:57 That's right. That's right, you got to take care of yourself first. So really, what's the run of show of your day? So you get up and then do work out first? Yeah, Bhavana Bartholf  17:05 I do. I wake up early before everybody else. And so I am usually up you know, I like getting my workout in at like 5am. Getting a little bit of time, I love to cook and do stuff. So I pretty much get your breakfast, lunch and dinner all done in the morning. Because by the end of the day, I have zero energy. But it gets me kind of going into by the time my family's up. And some of them are not morning people, they like the fact that I've taken off with some of my energy. Patti Dobrowolski  17:35 Like, go Hurry up everybody lunch back, let's go everybody out of the house. Bhavana Bartholf  17:40 So they just we do that. And then I do love taking. I mean, I will say the pandemic has been a big blessing because I used to be on the road so much to be take my kids to school because I feel like yeah, most conversations my kids have with me sometimes especially my older one who's, you know, soon to be a teenager, I guess in a year, the biggest thing is that that's when you get the most conversation out of them like That's right, they just want. Patti Dobrowolski  18:04 When your conversation happens at all, it's in the car, or from school. Bhavana Bartholf  18:09 That's correct. And so I will say I'm super appreciative of that now. But that's usually kind of how my day goes. And then I become extremely intentional around when I am home time with my family. Because I'm on the East Coast, everybody else I know, predominantly, most of the people I work with are on the West Coast, on being really protective of my time with them while they're back from school and being able to balance it. And the company does a really good job. And I think every company now is being mindful. Patti Dobrowolski  18:36 Yes, they are. Because retention is an issue. Right? We can go anywhere. So you know, be kind, right. Bhavana Bartholf  18:43 And I think the biggest thing for me even earlier on pre COVID. And everything was it's important to ask for what's important to you, right. And so I have made requests and asked to balance things. And my kids were really little critical things that are going on in their lives from, you know, I know the first Mother's Day tea that they did, and I've asked to leave big meetings for it and people have. And what I realised is, so far, no one's actually said, no. You got to make sure like you ask for it. Patti Dobrowolski  19:13 You have to ask for what you need. So ask for what you need. And then, you know, be willing to be flexible, especially, you know, give that grace to other people. I think we often you know, we demonstrate really good leadership when we are doing the right things for ourselves, right. So everybody on your team then knows, okay, but I can do this right? Bob does this so I can do this. Now, I noticed that you're on a lot of boards. So you are really active in your community say a little bit about the board work that you're doing and what's important to you. Bhavana Bartholf  19:46 It's interesting, someone just debuted recently, you know, from the classroom to the boardroom, right like which is big decisions for most companies across the board are made in the boardrooms and. Patti Dobrowolski  19:56 Yes. Bhavana Bartholf  19:56 Based off of you know, guidance that I was given it hadn't occurred to me till about a couple of years ago. But I'd been given coaching and guidance from a couple of great mentors of mine where they just said, like, if you want to drive systemic change, you need to see representation on the top and the driver up representation on the top, that means you've got to Patti Dobrowolski  20:18 Find out how to go there, we've got to go there. And that's right. Bhavana Bartholf  20:21 So and then when I started looking up the statistics of women on boards, and I know we've made improvement, you know, holistically on that book, but we're nowhere close to where we should be. And so, so it was initially like, well then make that decision. So I did join the board of directors for Wex. Inc, you know, as I was going through that process, I intentionally picked that company, because it's a very diverse and interesting board. But more importantly, as the CEO, she's a female, younger, she had her kids, actually, after she was named CEO, and just loved her energy. And I was like, I'm gonna do this. Patti Dobrowolski  20:56 And I'm gonna do it with somebody you really respect and love and that you want to help them, you know, lift them up with your energies. Bhavana Bartholf  21:02 And so I started there, and then now it's been more of so now let's make sure we're having, because then it gives you credibility, you and it, you understand it? And now, how are you going to create that path for others, because I think the most important thing is, if you know, representation matters, but you got to play your role in helping you drive that change. And so, so I do that I've been on a couple of nonprofit boards, and then my, I went to NC State, and I realised like, alright, if we are going to try to make a shift, then I love Dean Louis, who's our, for the College of Engineering. And when he asked, I was like, this is the time to do it like to go back. And, you know, we have a lot of, if you look across the board, we see a lot of women accepted into STEM related fields over the past couple of years. And so making sure we create a path to ensure that they are. Patti Dobrowolski  21:54 They're successful. They're successful. Right. So really, you've recommended more than 30 Women for board seats. That's what's true. That's correct. Yeah. I mean, like, that's a big number. That's huge. That kind of an impact really makes a difference. And I think this to me is how you actually take action, and step into the role that you've been given and utilise it, use it to show other people that you can make change. And I think systemic change, it happens over time, wouldn't you say? What kinds of changes have you seen since you came into this field that you would call out as things that are positive, moving in the right direction? Bhavana Bartholf  22:37 I've come into like, even at Microsoft, when I initially took on certain organisations that I think, Patti, you helped do an illustration for a strategy for one of those organisations. When I started off in consulting, where when I came into the organisation, in that specific field of IT Service Management, I think there was myself and one other woman, and it was a really large organisation. And I remember asking folks, and they were like, No, we've tried women are not interested. Right. And I think we've gone from. Patti Dobrowolski  23:06 Yeah. Bhavana Bartholf  23:06 That type of a conversation to we see, you know, companies, and I know, we still have work, but being really mindful on are you creating the right job descriptions that cater to how women, you know, apply for positions? Right? Are you ensuring that when you go through an interview process, you show representation on the other side of the table? So people feel like. Patti Dobrowolski  23:29 They want to come there? Come there? Yeah, yeah. Because they see themselves there. Right. Bhavana Bartholf  23:34 Right. And are you looking at unique differentiators of bringing in different types of individuals, you know, both from a background and experience standpoint versus what you actually have to complement your team, so that we can innovate and we can be better, right. And I think that I've done teams after team where we've gone through that process and that journey, and it still is a conversation and work that we intentionally have to be you have to put the effort into and make sure that we are set up for that success, because sometimes we also do a great job of attracting great talent. But then we've got to also make sure we're doing everything we can. Patti Dobrowolski  24:12 That's right. That's right. Because I think that it's one thing to be given a role and you're really excited about it. But it's another thing to be sitting in a vacuum and not feel part of a community and not be included in conversations or have a seat at the table. Meaning that you actually your voice is heard and then allies in the room, promote your voice. You know, these are very simple things that people can do, but they're not always done and male or female, that's your role. Right? If you want to make change, you have to promote people's ideas so that they're heard again and again and again like that. Well, now when you think about so you like really just shot up in your career. So when you think about what your vision I'm wondering, what's your vision, so you've been in this role for a year but What's your big vision for your life? Or for what you're doing right now? What are you reaching out for right now? In your world? Bhavana Bartholf  25:09 I will say like, so it's funny, my career ambition. And what I've been working towards has not changed. And like over 15 years, 16 years, or whatever it has been, but, you know, one of it was I wanted to be in corporate leadership and be able to run a company and Patti Dobrowolski  25:22 Check what's Yeah, check. Bhavana Bartholf  25:26 Did I ever think that I would still be a Microsoft, I doubt that that was what I had initially planned. Patti Dobrowolski  25:31 I know. But the thing about Microsoft is they move you around from role to role you get to work all over the world, if you want to write in all different business units. Yes. Bhavana Bartholf  25:40 Right. I think the experience I think is, has been great. And then I will say like, you know, never underestimate the importance of being part of a company that has a healthy culture, and then working for people that actually appreciate and value you, right, like, so there's, the grass always looks greener on the other side. But I think those pieces for me, I've grown up with it, and I'm learning now even more than ever, that you've got to be able to love the person you work for, you know, the team that you're a part of, and truly aligned with the value of what the company is doing. Right. And so I think that has, you know, kept me here. And I've kind of enjoyed the experience and drive associated to it. Patti Dobrowolski  26:24 Yes, well, I love that that is part of the big picture for you is to continue on this trajectory that you're going. And also to you got three kids, and that's a lot, right, you're married, you have three kids, and they're not teenagers yet. Is that what you're telling me? Bhavana Bartholf  26:40 That's correct. Patti Dobrowolski  26:41 I mean, like, that's a full plate, right? So I think what I think about that, and the level of responsibility you've been able to manage, you know, I'm so impressed with the fact that you've been able to serve on boards and have your role and support your team in a way that they feel listened to, and respected. And you have an awesome family. So when you think about being able to pivot and change and grow into the roles that you've been given, right, knowing that you started in manufacturing, and now you're the chief digital officer, right, for this huge sales organisation, tell me, what would you say to someone who's just starting out, or they're trying to figure out who they are what they want to do to change and step into the person that they longed to be? What would you tell them? What piece of advice would you give them? Bhavana Bartholf  27:34 Right? Well, I think that the biggest thing, don't say a couple of things, right? It's important to be able to be your authentic self, and bring your whole self to work, right. Just never feel like you have to hide a component of trying to be like somebody else, because what's unique about you, is what makes you great, right? So I will say that something you've got to be proud of own? And I know it's not easy. Patti Dobrowolski  27:57 No. Bhavana Bartholf  27:59 That would be the thing. The second component for me, and I will say this has served me well is I never pigeonhole myself into a specific job or title, because I would say over 50% of the jobs I've taken on, you know, including the one that I currently am in, didn't exist before I did it. And so if I had gone down a specific path, and I had narrowed myself in, and I think the world is changing faster now than it did when I started in my career. And so yes, I would say keep an open mind on what opportunities are out there and make sure that it works for you. And you have, you know, something to offer as well. And don't underestimate your value on what you can now offer. I will say that many times I think I've had a lot of great support. But then I've gone into businesses, I was like, Why in the world am I like, what do I think I could possibly do? I remember some of those questions early on, but I was like, someone thinks I can do it. Well, might as well give it a shot, right? Like, but I always say try it even in scenarios where things don't work out great. That is an actual learning experience. And I will say, you know, there's a few scenarios where things haven't, you know, gone as planned or changes, you know, happened, where it's not aligned with what I've wanted to do, right? I'm not ready to scenario. I will say those are the times where I truly think I challenged myself and pushed myself to accelerate that next step that I really needed to take. And so all of those are learning experiences. And I think just, I would say appreciate it and embrace it as you kind of go through that process. Patti Dobrowolski  29:30 Oh, I love that. I mean, I think we so fear failure. But in fact, failure is the greatest learning tool, we have every opportunity, right? Every experience has the opportunity in it hidden in it embedded in it for us to grow and change and modify. The other thing that you said but you didn't really call out is that you said that the role wasn't always there before, right? So that means that sometimes you may see a need for a role to exist that doesn't exist now. You can ask for that you can ask for that to be developed. Just like when you are if you're an entrepreneur and you want to grow something in an area, you're going to have to figure out what the role is that needs to be in place. And then fill it with people who represent you your value and your brand. And you have such a strong brand as a person, you know, you're really a powerful woman of colour in this environment. You know, you stand, you're loud and proud in a way, you know, for what you do, and you serve the community. And so I can't thank you enough for just sharing all of that with us today. It was so amazing to talk to you. Thank you for being here. Bhavana Bartholf  30:43 Thanks, Patti and appreciate you giving me the opportunity and and again, love what you're doing. And look forward to hearing more from the various interviews that you do as well. Patti Dobrowolski  30:52 Thank you so much. All right. So everybody, you know the drill, there's gonna be some great show notes. And there's some great stories in Bhavana LinkedIn profiles. So you have to look in that because she tells a story about her son, it's really great. And it's speaks to what we're talking about how to step up and be brave, which is what you need to beat in order to make change in the world. And so, thanks for all your courage and thanks for taking time today. Okay, everybody, until next time Up Your Creative Genius. Let's do this. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Gayle Edwards is an International, award-winning Global Impact & Personal Brand Strategist, Best-selling Author and Speaker who works with Entrepreneurial and Corporate "Square Pegs" to help them build their identity and authority within their marketplace! More than that though, Gayle is a power-full and intuitive Teacher and Healer who uses her gift of recognising ‘stuck energy' to help her clients release it so they are able to communicate with confidence, clarity and conviction! If you do nothing, things stay exactly the same as they are! Gayle shows you how to become THE EXPERT in your industry rather than just another expert! Timestamp 1:47 Gayle's journey into Brand You Consultancy 15:10 Gayle shares her opinion on how technology has changed the world 16:37 Shaping the collaboration 18:24 People who influenced Gayle in her life 23:48 Gayle's definition of intuitive impact entrepreneurs 31:08 Daily routine that Gayle practices 35:00 Gayle's favorite book and tips on pivoting in life and getting through challenges Social Media Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/brandyouconsultancy/ Website https://brandyouconsultancy.com/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life.  Hey, everybody, oh my gosh, I have Gayle Edwards here. She's an international award winning global impact and brand strategist, a speaker and author. She works with intuitive impact entrepreneurs and purpose driven organisations to help them build their brand and leverage their identity to claim authority and dominate the marketplace. Gayle, I can't believe you're here. Like I really she's like the founder of Brand New Consultancy, and she combined her spiritual gifts with 30 years in brand marketing, communications, trainings and coaching.  And I just want to say we met in clubhouse because we both felt that someone in the clubhouse needed our help, she was able to help them. I don't know what happened to me. I got lost in the fray of it. But it was fantastic. Gayle, I can't wait to talk to you. Welcome to the show. Gayle Edwards 01:37 Thank you so much, Patti. And I'm so honoured and humbled to be here with you today. I'm looking forward to this exchange of wisdom actually, Patti? Patti Dobrowolski 01:47 Yeah, I know, well, because we never really got to talk just for that little brief moment. So and I've been in clubhouse where you've just dropped all these bombs of wisdom on people and you just pour into people. That's how you are. Well, how did you become that? I mean, tell everybody that's listening. Tell us your story. How did you start off doing this and then start doing what you're doing now? Gayle Edwards 02:13 Well, actually started when I was very young. So I'm a big believer that we teach what we most need to learn. Okay, so helping people to get really clear about who they are, you know, what their message is? How are they going to impact? How are they going to extend that impact.  So it's no surprise that I didn't know how to do any of that. And I, I did not know how to do any of that from a very young age. You know, I grew up learning to speak when I was quite old, I was about four, when I first got in sentences, which has been quite late. There was nothing wrong with me, I just didn't want to talk. Patti Dobrowolski 02:55 And you talk so much now that we're making up for now, which is fantastic for all of our listeners, yes. Gayle Edwards 03:05 But what that did to me, is that it made me very observant. Number one, so I became really good at reading people. I would find ways of communicating with them without having to open my mouth. Because that's what it does. It just makes you really communicating. However, it also made me quite insecure, and very self conscious, as well. I was always the quiet kid.  So you can imagine when you're in your own world like that, when you're isolated. My escape was books. So that really fired off my imagination. It really helped to strengthen up and broaden my vocabulary, as well. So by the time I was speaking, by the time I got about five, six, and started speaking, I was actually a very good speaker but crippled with self doubt. Patti Dobrowolski 03:57 Yes. I bet, oh my gosh. Yes. Wow. Okay. With self doubt. Gayle Edwards 04:07 You know, still very shy in school. And that's, you know, that kind of really started to pay out even more. And I didn't know what I wanted to do for a career, but I knew I still really liked people because I was good with people because, yeah, it's only time so much time observing them. So I started off my career working in PR for the media. See the big BBC over here? Oh, my God. Wow. Patti Dobrowolski 04:38 Beat him off over the BBC. Yes. Gayle Edwards 04:40 Exactly. And that in fact, I used to be the BBC Proms press officer god. Yeah. You know, so that really helped my confidence. Patti Dobrowolski 04:49 Yeah, I bet. Gayle Edwards 04:50 You can't work in the media and not really, especially back then in the 80s. And also being in the BBC as a young black woman. Wow. You know, I was very distinguished or distinctive, you know, like now we have, you know, lots of diversity and inclusion, whatever. So I was very distinctive. So, because I didn't want to stand out any more than I was already standing out, and made myself confident, I became the way out. Patti Dobrowolski 05:16 What did you just act the role and then step onto it. Gayle Edwards 05:21 There's a saying that I absolutely love. And that is act as if you don't force Yeah, I don't like fake it till you make it because that does. Yeah. But act as if, and I always, you know, thought, Okay, if I was, and remember, this was the 80s. And Patti Dobrowolski 05:39 I know, yes, I'm there with you. We're probably around the same age. I'm gay. Yeah. Yeah. Gayle Edwards 05:45 So it all sounds like okay, well, if I was this successful TV media person, how would I be and that's what I didn't? Patti Dobrowolski 05:56 Yeah, fantastic. I love that. I feel like that's how my whole life has been, like, I'll just take on a role. And then I'm a business consultant, then I'm an illustrator, then I'm an actor, then I'm, whatever the moment needs, you have to step into it. And that as if principal, I think, is one of the most powerful things you can do to become more of yourself, right? I mean, to be stepped into a bigger room, don't you think?  Once you do that, you're like, Okay, if I can do that, I can do anything, if I can command the room for the first time. And I would always say to myself, you know, before, when I would first go on stage, and there, there'd be like, 1000s of people in the room, I'd be like, okay, so you only have to do this for the first time once. And then after that, so just imagine that you're on the backside of this, and it's so fantastic. And then I just go into it, you know? Gayle Edwards 06:48 Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, through that time, I had this real unsettling feeling, you know, when you just feel something's not right. Patti Dobrowolski 06:58 Yes, yes. Gayle Edwards 06:59 And loved my job, you know, lose jobs quite frequently, because I was able to in the 80s, you know, me you know, and I worked at various TV production companies and fashion or whatever, but I always felt you know, there's something more. Patti Dobrowolski 07:20 Something more something else. Yeah, yeah. Gayle Edwards 07:22 I spoke to my dad about it. God rest his soul, I suppose my dad at the time, and said to him, I know that want to do more, but I'm not quite sure my parents, they were immigrants from the Caribbean. And you know, they vote very firmly believed in you got a job and you stayed there for life. Patti Dobrowolski 07:39 That's right. Because the safety net, right. Gayle Edwards 07:41 It's a safety net. Yeah. Really. You need to sort yourself out. You know? Patti Dobrowolski 07:48 You really need to sell yourself out. Yeah, you do. I can't tell you how many times my parents tried to make me do that. Oh, that didn't work. Yeah. Well, anyway, so then what happened? What you do and you got Gayle Edwards 08:03 I just, you know, we kept having this conversation. He said, Look, all I know, is just you just get a job that you love doing, then you don't have to worry about it. Yeah. No, I just like talking. No one's gonna pay me to speak. You know who's gonna make cause I love to speak to people. Patti Dobrowolski 08:25 Yes. And you're good to speaking to people. Gayle Edwards 08:28 And I like speaking into people. Patti Dobrowolski 08:31 Yes, yes. Yes. Gayle Edwards 08:32 People will come to me with the challenges and yeah, they might as well and I love speaking into that, you know, and then I discovered this wonderful thing called coaching. Yeah, oh my gosh, you pay me to give them advice. You don't actually give them advice scale, you know, you kind of help them. Patti Dobrowolski 08:55 You help them pull themselves up. But Gayle Edwards 08:58 Yeah, I just love this thing called coaching. And I literally just dove in headfirst, I was all over and then NLP and then EFT tapping and, you know, and hypnosis and all kinds of different therapies or modalities or resources, I started adding to my toolbox. And all the time. I was getting more and more results with the people I was speaking to in terms of they were starting to notice. Patti Dobrowolski 09:24 Yes, I bet. Gayle Edwards 09:25 Change, you know, real. Yeah, the transformations were going. I was just playing with it at that stage. You know, yeah. Someone say to me, Oh, girl, you do that NLP thing. And I don't like spiders. And I'd be like, Yeah, let's play. And then, you know, sometime now, I mean, they'd be like, You know what, I actually took a spider out of my bath the other day and I'm like, wow, this stuff works. You know. Patti Dobrowolski 09:54 I love that. I love that because that's when you experiment with things then you learn about about it, they learn about it. And it's all I mean, that's what's true when you're coaching anybody is you're always coaching them on what you're learning right now. You don't like coach them, like there are some things you pull through from the past because you know that they're standard and they work and it's consistent. But the most exciting part of coaching is when you're doing something brand new. Gayle Edwards 10:23 Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, there was a lot going on at that time. And I knew that, that nine to five employment road wasn't really for me. So I made the decision to just jump. You know, it was after actually I attended a conference in the state of New York in Westchester. And it was nothing like we had in the UK at the time, it was called African American women on tour. It was hosted by SP magazine. Patti Dobrowolski 10:53 Now nice. Gayle Edwards 10:54 We didn't have anything like that in the UK. And I was completely in thrall, I was mesmerised. And all I remember was one lady came on stage. And she was hosting a workshop and she came on, she looked so beautiful. She was the vivacious and vibrant. And she walked on stage. And she said, I'm going to be 50 next birthday. And I've only got one regret in life. And that sort of only been living a life of purpose for 12 years. And I did a quick, dirty calculation. I thought, I'm only 34. She was 38. I've got time. Well, I came back handed in my notice there and then, and I've never looked back since that was 22 years ago. Patti Dobrowolski 11:35 Oh my god, that's so fantastic. That is so fantastic. That is amazing. Gayle Edwards 11:42 That's kind of like how I got to be this entrepreneur, how I got to be doing what I'm doing now. With? Patti Dobrowolski 11:49 Yes. Gayle Edwards 11:49 I learned all the coaching techniques and all of that stuff. But I was actually quite frustrated with coaching. Because sometimes I just wanted to take someone say no, you are more than this. You've got the answer. Patti Dobrowolski 12:00 Yeah. Right. Gayle Edwards 12:01 I really wanted to be involved in genuinely having an impact in the chat with their transformation. So I started to do other than just coaching, I started to blend it. And I always tell people that I'm not your traditional coach, you know, I'm that person, that is the proverbial kick up the bum. I am. Yes, you know, let's try this, or let's try this. I'm going to listen. But I'm also going to genuinely hold you hold your hand and help you. And you know, messaging because I've been in marketing and media and branding and communications for so long. Patti Dobrowolski 12:38 Yes. Gayle Edwards 12:39 I found that people just couldn't talk about themselves. They'd have all these wonderful ideas that have these wonderful businesses even. But the moment you ask them to speak about it, they've come up. Patti Dobrowolski 12:50 And they would and then they these little tiny things would come out and they'd be all Bumbly and kind of confused. And then you'd be left thinking to yourself, Geez, that didn't go very well. Yeah, you see, and then too, they think How come that happen? You know, how could I be so afraid that I couldn't totally express myself articulately and tell you in a nutshell on an elevator, right? Gayle Edwards 13:12 Absolutely. And then, you know, lots of people don't like the elevator pitch and, and I thought no is more than that began. Scripted, you know, and I was running networking events at that time. And when people use it themselves, they were holding up a piece of paper. And they were saying. Patti Dobrowolski 13:28 And reading their cue card or giving a talk. I'm like, please. Gayle Edwards 13:32 I don't need that, you know? Got it. You just need the confidence to say it. And that was where it started. And that's how I developed my standing up in your own hallelujah programme. Yes, does that it helps people to be more of themselves more of your time. Patti Dobrowolski 13:52 Yes, that is so fantastic. And so now that brings us up to date right now. Right? So tell me what are you excited about right now? What's happening right now? Do you want to tell people about there are so many things happening right now? Well just give us all we want to know and then I'm going to ask you questions about them of course and you more you. Gayle Edwards 14:14 So I've just launched my own podcast as well during the offseason, which I'm very excited about. I've been talking about that for a while. Good actually, that's one of the that's one of my catchphrases. You know, we say to people I dare you. How willing are you today yourself to be awesome. So that's been really, that's fantastic. I've just gone into a great collaboration with which rich woman magazine or on their brand editor so starting to collect stories and build some great issues for that because they're offline as well as online. Also, the daring be awesome network, which is a new way of networking. You know, we've been in this who knows what this has been the last time. Patti Dobrowolski 14:51 Who knows really? I'm not even gonna guess. Gayle Edwards 14:55 Exactly. But you know, networking as a result has changed. Yes, you have He's doing on online, we're starting to go a little bit out again now. So, but that has changed, because we're different. The whole experience. Patti Dobrowolski 15:10 What would you say is what you think how we're different? I want to know, from your perspective, how are you different? Gayle Edwards 15:16 So one of the things that I find is we're almost in this conundrum, you know, we've been so without proper, consistent human contact so long, that we're almost like, you know, we're grasping, we want that contact to get, but we're also wary, we're like, okay, so is this okay? You know? Patti Dobrowolski 15:41 Yes. Gayle Edwards 15:42 How are we doing this here? Patti Dobrowolski 15:44 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 15:45 Just from that basic level alone. So when you like, go put that same scenario into a networking scenario, you've got some people who want to genuinely connect, because that's how they connect with each other. Patti Dobrowolski 15:59 Yes, yes. Gayle Edwards 16:01 And then there are some who are a bit more standoffish. And so they will come across as being, you know, a bit more abrupt. That's going to change the dynamic. I've seen it already with some events, that changes the dynamic. So what I'm doing with the Daring Nielsen network, is I'm bringing people together so they can genuinely collaborate together. So they that closeness, it's not just about the networking, but it's about the collaboration. It's really working with each other. So now there's a connection, collaboration, and now we've got genuine relationships. Patti Dobrowolski 16:37 That's right. I'm so with you on this. Now, I think that so when we think about how it is that we really learn and grow, it's when we collaborate with people on stuff when we get together. And we figure out oh, yeah, you do this. And I do that, well, let's do this together, let's do an experiment together. And the best experiences I've had are collaborations where things are just wide open. Now, do you give them the opportunity to figure out how they would collaborate? Do you help create a construct by which that they get something to work on together? Do you give them a project? Gayle Edwards 17:14 So what happens is, so we have a little networking thing, period. Patti Dobrowolski 17:21 Speed networking? Are they in line? Gayle Edwards 17:25 So what they have to do rather than that standard? Oh, hi, my name is a, what they have to do. They have to give us one fun fact about their business. Patti Dobrowolski 17:34 Yes. Gayle Edwards 17:35 What is the challenge they're currently facing? Okay, good. So then we go off, we have a lovely lunch together. So they're really getting to know that. And then after much, they have to work on the challenge. So as a collective, they work on each other's challenges. Patti Dobrowolski 17:50 Oh, that's fantastic. Gayle Edwards 17:52 But now you've got all these people who you've suddenly got a team helping you the thing you are most, whatever that is, you having to go find a coach, but you've got a team of people who are sitting there, and they're giving you their feedback, they're giving you their input, they're telling you well, okay, that's a great idea that actually that does not, I can't see that would work.  They're also able, because it's your ideas, every single person gets a chance to do this. So what they're also able to do is connect people with those outside of the room. Patti Dobrowolski 18:24 That's right. So you give them all your network you network with them about it's like people will often drop into, you know, I do a thing, if you want to connect with me just get into a 20 minute call. I see you have that too in your link tree, right.  But people do and I'm just honestly connecting them to whoever they need. Because why not? Why not? That's the whole point. Is that because I think about. Don't you think about who influenced you like who did influence you and pull you in? Who influenced you and gave you that lift up? Gayle Edwards 18:57 So many people, the very first person to that woman that walked on that on the stage. I was at that conference because of another lady who was the keynote speaker who was a lady called Sabrina Jackson Ghandi. And she had written a book, which just landed in my lap at exactly the right time in my life, which was called sacred pampering principles for African American women.  And I thought, even though I'm not African American, so back then. It was fantastic. And because she was the keynote speaker, that's how I ended up at that conference. And that lady that walked across the stage that really grabbed me her name was Jill Diamond Taylor.  Oh, yeah. Oh, honestly. And between the two of them, they were my Shiraz for a very, very long time. But then there were people here in the UK, who were really really influential and instrumental as well with my growth and my development, not just as a person but even as an entrepreneur just learning how to do business in a really professional way.  You know, people like Jatinder is the founder of the Athena network our time, you know, people like Pete, like Pete Cohen, and I absolutely adore Pete enthusiasm. I love to work works with people, you know, Dr. Marina, the founder of rich woman who just breeds belief into everyone, you can't help but be brilliant. Patti Dobrowolski 19:25 That's right. That's right, when people are filling you up with that kind of enthusiasm to I think, but you also must have had some peace inside that confidence from before that, as if, you know, stepping into it, than that must have helped you to in all those cases? Gayle Edwards 20:38 Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm very lucky because I come from a family of very strong women. Patti Dobrowolski 20:43 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 20:43 And, you know, my mom, and my answer were very, very, you know, instrumental in my upbringing, as well, actually just can do. Is that what you mean, you can't do that? Of course, you can. Patti Dobrowolski 20:55 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 20:57 So that, I've obviously got some of that as well, because, Patti, you know, what this journey is like, it's never all uphill. You know, it's great that we're having this conversation, we're talking about some great things that have happened, but we know that there are some awful things that are happening. Patti Dobrowolski 21:12 No doubt, no doubt. I mean, with people and things and places and money and all of it, you know, structure and you know, you expand your team, and then you can track the team based on whatever you learn and grow there. Right. And and I would say to have you come to those places where you get kind of stalled out in your business, and you're thinking now, what am I doing that? What am I gonna do that? Like that? Gayle Edwards 21:38 Absolutely. You have those periods where you think, this valleys deep, am I gonna get out of here? Patti Dobrowolski 21:46 Well, now, how do you get out of there? How do they get out of there? I'm curious how many? Gayle Edwards 21:51 There's two things that saved me on a daily basis. One of them is bathing. I absolutely. I know. But that's where I do my meditation. Yeah. And when I'm in the bath, and I'm either meditated. I just find something always sparks off. Always, you know, so most evenings, I would tend to end my evening, settle down for the night by having a bath. In the bath is where I also do my gratitude. It's become a real nighttime ritual for me. And it has been for many, many years now. So that really helps me. And I always think, you know, there's always tomorrow. But then the other thing is my daughter, and my daughter is nearly 20 Now, but she. Patti Dobrowolski 22:34 She's a young woman now. Gayle Edwards 22:36 Yes. Oh, yeah. She's young, you know, upon coming, but when. So her dad and I divorced when she was eight, nine, okay. And I remember going through really dark, dark, dark, dark time. And I used to have a programme at that time called the breakthrough diva. And I remember one day, one weekend, her and I was sitting on the sofa, and I was really miserable and upset. And I was trying to be, you know, upbeat for her. Patti Dobrowolski 23:05 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 23:05 And she said, Mom, I've just got something. She was about nine at the time. She said, Mom, I've only got one thing say to you, I said, What's that makes it? She said, You're either the breakthrough diva or you're not. And I thought, okay. Patti Dobrowolski 23:22 Okay, golden tougue wisdom coming right through that child to you. Gayle Edwards 23:25 Right off the bat. And even though I no longer run that programme, you know, to this day, that's what gets me through. I just remember because, you're either the breakthrough diva or you're not. And I think, you know, I'm going to choose to be the breakthrough diva through this moment, I am going to act as if that right. It always comes back to that. Patti Dobrowolski 23:48 Now one of the things that you describe yourself as you work with intuitive impact entrepreneurs, tell me what you mean by intuitive impact entrepreneurs. Gayle Edwards 23:58 Yes. And I choose those intuitive impact entrepreneurs because they are the people who show up who have these unexplained gifts. They don't know how they do what they do. You know, they just know that they're very good at doing whatever it is. And they tend to be people who are empaths. So they, you know, they really feel other people's energy.  They're very sensitive, they tend to be highly sensitive. They tend to operate if they're business owners, they tend to be very heart lead. No, they tend to be the therapists among us, the healers, people, they have such a big heart, they just want to give them they give and they give.  Yeah, and person they never give to themselves. It was the person that's always last on their list is themselves. So and they're also who are the least structured. So when it comes to business, you know, they just want to give it away for free but then they realise they can't pay their rent or their mortgage. Patti Dobrowolski 24:54 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 24:55 Yeah, they're the people that really resonate with me, because I know what that's like, because I've been in that situation. I know that slide. So what I do for them is I provide them with the structure, the business structure. With the both the branding and the brand help them build that personal brand around. Yes, really connect with them and understand because you know, out in the wider world, they have a reputation for being fluffy. Patti Dobrowolski 25:27 Okay, that's right. That's right. Gayle Edwards 25:29 But they're not fluffy. No. Okay. They are just so heart centred, that they want to wrap you up in fluff that they did, because they care so much. So I show them and help them and educate them as to how they can have a thriving business successfully, whilst they're speaking the language of those that need to hear them? Patti Dobrowolski 25:50 Yes, yes. I love that. And then do you work with them? One on one? Do you do group stuff? How do you like to work? Are you one too many? How does it work? Gayle Edwards 26:00 I love one too many buy also loved ones? Well, because even when I'm in a one to many situation, I'll still hone down on one. Because I love to see, I like to see the transformation right there in the room. But also everybody else can see. Yeah, and that's where the real magic is. Patti Dobrowolski 26:18 I love that. I hope you come to my city. So I can experience you in that way. Because I see you only I don't see you in clubhouse. But you know what I'm saying? And I think that this, for me, I'm fascinated with the transformation myself. I think, you know, if people understood that transformation, it's not an easy course. But if you know what you're going for, then it's clear.  Because you have to understand really, that yes, vision is out there. And you always have a vision, but the goals are the things that you want to get to. And that once you achieve something, then you can look back at who you were before you achieve the goal. And then you see, ah, I've made progress. And that progress gives you confidence. Gayle Edwards 27:06 Absolutely. You know, I have clients come to me for all sorts of things that you know, patterns come to me they say things like, my business isn't working. I'm not making any money. I don't know what to post on social media, you know, and it all comes down to the same thing. It always comes down to well, who are you? You know, who are you showing up as to your clients? Maybe they don't understand you. You know, who are you showing up as on social media? Yeah. And also, I'm also a big believer that everything works, but not everything works for you. Patti Dobrowolski 27:40 You know? That's right. It's true. Gayle Edwards 27:43 You got to choose what works for you. But well, maybe have great success out there. On Instagram. Yeah, that might not be your thing. Patti Dobrowolski 27:53 No, it might not. I mean, here's my being in a room with people networking like that. That might be the way but you're gonna know yourself and find yourself. Yeah, I think I think it's Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think everybody, there's so much selling that's going on in the world right now.  You know, it just drives me crazy. And then when I have to sell something, I'm like, Oh, I'm so sorry that I'm doing this. And I just need you to know this is happening if you want to come do it, right. But what's also true is that I realised this thing this year. And I wonder how you feel about this, you know, like people, when they set goals that the New Year's, the way we did it before was it was a resolution of something that's of the past.  So you can't really go set or future cast from that place. But also I realised that goals is not just about the what you're doing with your business or these other things. It's about, I mean, in terms of money and stuff, all of getting stuff together. It's about the feeling of well want to experience. Gayle Edwards 29:00 Absolutely, Patti, and that is what you know, if we're going to get really spiritual here, that's what, from the third dimension into the fifth into the fifth dimension, this feeling is the experience, and more and more people now have to give their clients an experience of them because, especially with the pandemic, you know, yeah, so people pivoted, there's that word, so many people pivoted, you've got people coming into your industry right now doing what you do, who've only been doing it for two years, 18 months, but because they're really have locked into the whole experience. Patti Dobrowolski 29:41 They understand how to create it. Gayle Edwards 29:43 There's the now they are getting the accolades that many people who were sitting the here before the pandemic, yeah, now looking at them thinking about, I know I've got more experienced them. Yeah, but you've been slow to the market. Yeah. We're trying to work in a Very old paradigm. Patti Dobrowolski 30:01 That's right. In the old paradigm, you got to get out of it, you got to step in, I and I would say this thing too, when I think about you, and I think about what you've done. Like, these are things. I mean, you and I, we sit on a lot of history, we've done a lot of things. That's all there is to it. But what we know is, and I know this must be true for you is that we are always trying to learn something new, we know we have to learn something new. Because otherwise, we're a dinosaur. Gayle Edwards 30:29 With Dinosaurs as it is much less now. Exactly. And giving it away. You know, so you have to stay nimble, you got to stay nimble, you got to stay flexible. And that's one of the things I love about clubhouse, because it allows you to listen to millennials and people from different parts of the world, how they're doing what they're doing is great. And, you know, if you're not flexible, if you just have this rigid way of doing business, it's not sustainable. No, not sustainable. You know, people literally go past you. Patti Dobrowolski 31:08 Yeah, yeah. Well, and when you're talking about this is the thing when you earlier you said this thing about Okay. I wonder people are different now. And I think this fifth dimension piece, this is what we're talking about, we're talking about expanded consciousness that people have stepped into a bigger room, and some people have and other people are still behaving as if it's the same. And that's the middle, that's where you're missing out.  The opportunity is that no, the world is different. It's broken open, and you either step into the open broken-ness of it, and you experience yourself as a new being in that, or you are going to be left behind on the train. And then that's what's true. So how do you step into every day with a fresh mindset? What do you do that helps you to be in that fresh?  You take a bath? I know that what are you curious about or looking at right now that you think of? That thing seems fascinating to me? You said your daughter, you showed up that thing? And then you said I'm going to think I'm going to do an NFT with this? And I was like yes, you are yes you are. And if those of you that are not listening that seven non fungible token, okay, you can buy and they're going to be trading and everything we own, there's going to be a non fungible token as Gayle Edwards 32:24 easy to going that way. Yeah, it is. For me, same way, I have an evening routine, I have a morning routine. So I tend to wake up most mornings, between sort of like half five and half, six. So you know, it's kind of like my normal time. And what I do, there's two things I do immediately to always have a glass of water straightaway. So that because I have. Patti Dobrowolski 32:45 Yes, we know that's good flush of system. Gayle Edwards 32:49 Always have my water bottle. And then I actually have zoom to remember I combine my spiritual gifts. So I'm very, very good at reading cards. You know, not Tarot cards. I don't I'm not really a big Tarot lover, who like angel cards, I tend to pull an angel card in the morning. I then tend to write my intention for the day based on your card. Patti Dobrowolski 33:16 Right. Gayle Edwards 33:17 And then I go for a walk. Because I love it. Yeah, and the right thing. At that time, the morn there's hardly anyone around. Yeah, so no word of life. Patti, as I'm walking around my street surrounded around you, they probably all know me. They're probably all twitching at their curtains.  They Oh, there she goes. I've got my headphones. I've got my earphones in. And I am singing gospel music at the top of my voice as I as I walk, you know, and I love it. Sometimes I'll do a little dance, you know. And I do that to three kilometres in the morning, come back. And I'm ready to start my day. And I absolutely love that. Because I wasn't always able to do that. You know, I used to literally be on my sofa all the time. You know, just before the pandemic. I was very sick. I have cancer, unfortunately. Patti Dobrowolski 34:08 Oh my gosh, I'm sorry to hear that. Gayle Edwards 34:10 Oh, fine now, though. Excellent. And fantastic. And literally as I came out of recovery, we went into lockdown. So there was a period where I was really unsure because I was like, What am I going to do? Because the world changed? Yeah, I was sick. The world changed. Okay. Yeah, I was able to do what a lot of people did. I mean, she thought okay, what are most people gonna want to do? Well, now they're working from home. A lot of people are now going to want to build this nursery. Patti Dobrowolski 34:41 Yeah, realise their dream. They're gonna want a baby. Yes. Yeah. Gayle Edwards 34:45 I thought you know what, I'm that girl. Yeah, you are? Yes, you are. So that's what gets me excited. So many people, you know, literally finally getting the chance to live their dream Patti Dobrowolski 34:59 Then yes, yes, yes, yes, I love that. And I think, you know, there's nothing greater than helping people to step into the reality that they've always dreamed about. And it's not that far away from you.  So, you know, if you're listening, you have to understand that we're in your corner here, we're here to help you step into a bigger room, no matter what it is, even if you already are in that bigger room, and you're searching around and you don't know what it is, you know, pay close attention to the gifts that come to you. And then be grateful for every little thing.  You know, everything in your world without exception is there to help you grow. So, you know, get busy and keep growing. You're so incredible, Gayle. So you know, alright, I always ask people like, What's your favourite book that you're reading right now? And what's a tip you want to give us about making change and pivot? Gayle Edwards 35:54 Well, funnily enough, my favourite book, and I think this is probably my favourite book ever. And I never ever thought I would say this about this particular person. But I've got to say, Will Smith's book, I don't tend to read biographies or things like that I normally read business books.  And, you know, had you asked me maybe three months ago, probably would have said something like, you know, code of the extraordinary mind or something. But Will Smith's biography has been amazing. I've read the paper version, and the audible version. And the reason why they are both experienced audio, it's like you're at a concert almost. Yeah. And the book, the paper version, you know, the pictures of his life in his family. It's an experience. Yeah, so that's my favourite. Patti Dobrowolski 36:45 That's fantastic. I love that. Gayle Edwards 36:47 And my tip, is just do it, you know, do yourself, as I say, Just do yourself, you can literally do anything, there isn't anything that we can't do. The very fact that we came into this world, not being able to walk and talk and fend for ourselves, and now the majority of us are able to do just that. Yeah, that in itself is a testament to what we can do as humans. So if you can do that, when we're little, imagine what we can do now. We're big. Patti Dobrowolski 37:14 I know. And if you bring that childlike mind into everyone you do then you're always going to be curious, you're going to be excited. Everything's going to be like a puppy in the car waiting to go to the park. That's what you want to be. Yeah, let's go. I know, we're going somewhere exciting. My dog can't even hold himself back. He starts to squeak as soon as we get in the car. Oh, I don't know where we're going. But I'm gonna meet people, right? And so if you can have that beginner's mind about everything I just. Gayle Edwards 37:42 And you know, Patti, one of the other things I'm excited about is the obviously I also the International Academy of universal self mastery. And what they do, they really promote this idea of play. They call themselves a playground for conscious influences. And I would say a tip for self mastery, we've got a master our own cells. Patti Dobrowolski 38:03 Yeah. Gayle Edwards 38:04 Once we become more aware of who we are, it just opens us up to so much more. Really, really does. And we've got unity of people that are just like that. Oh, that's what happens. Patti Dobrowolski 38:19 That's right. That's it. The magic happens everywhere. And I love that you're talking about stepping into yourself, know yourself, understand yourself, grow yourself. And in that self mastery, then you find I think, liberation and freedom. You're free from the constraints of what anybody says or does because you trust and know yourself and you're aligned with the universe. And so you're doing and living your purpose every day and you definitely are sister.  You are incredible. Gayle. Oh my gosh. I just feel like this like Time flew. I'm getting back because this is so incredible. I can't wait to collaborate with you on something. I know that it would be amazing. So let's just hook up either in clubhouse, out a clubhouse. I don't care. But everyone if you're listening, just read the show notes and go follow Gayle Edwards. What's your handle on Instagram? We'll just say it right here. Gayle Edwards 39:17 Gayle.edwards.brandyou. Patti Dobrowolski 39:20 Yes, go there. And then I want you to just follow her and just follow her right into clubhouse if you want to hear some amazing things from her. Thank you so much, Gayle for your time. Gayle Edwards 39:31 Oh, thank you. Thank you. It's been an absolute pleasure but you know it has gone way too quick. Patti Dobrowolski 39:38 All right, so we'll do it again soon then. I know we will. Okay, everybody you know the drill if you like the content, share it with your friends and until next time Up Your Creative Genius. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius.  Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

My guest Patti Dobrowolski, author of 9 Tips to Up Your Creative Genius and DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life, is founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change. Her large format visuals grace the walls of such clients as Microsoft, Nike, Starbucks, PepsiCo, Samsung, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and the Seattle Space Needle. She is host of the podcast Up Your Creative Genius on Spotify and Apple Podcasts Topics:Drawing Your FutureHelping Entrepreneurs shift and see the possibilitiesBackcastingFuturecastingSetting the feelings of what you wantThe future is exciting!What do you need to learn?Women in Cloud - helping Women in TechnologyDrama TherapyLearning to DrawBecoming a Keynote SpeakerRemotivating yourselfPartnership and collaboration Patti: https://www.instagram.com/UpYourCreativeGenius/https://twitter.com/pdobrowolski Isn't it time to step into that future you desire?Email: patti@upyourcreativegenius.com Draw your future | Patti Dobrowolski | TEDxRainier3x time TEDx speaker at TEDxRainier, “Draw Your Future” over 6 million views.https://youtu.be/zESeeaFDVSw Women in Cloud: https://womenincloud.com/Lou: https://www.instagram.com/loutemlett/https://www.linkedin.com/in/louisetemlett/ TECH TALKS with Lou - email signup: http://eepurl.com/hPy02L MUSIC CREDIT:ARTIST: Maleki Ram | ALBUM: The Ghost at the End of the World | TRACK: The Rushhttps://music.apple.com/gb/album/the-rush/1098113666?i=1098113677 See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Stacey Stevenson is an experienced business leader who has worked in Defense, Technology, and Finance senior roles. She was recently Senior Managing Director at Charles Schwab and Co. in Westlake, Texas, where she oversaw major initiatives, including Voice Technology, Digital, and Talent. While at Charles Schwab, she tirelessly advocated for creating a safe and inclusive space for all in the workplace in her roles as local and National co-chair for Schwab's Pride ERG and through the partnerships she established with multiple LGBTQ non-profits. Stacey has been active in the fight for equality in Dallas through leading community projects and non-profit board service. She and her wife Cheralyn have been married 15 years and reside in Dallas with their 7-year old twin boys Duke and London. Timestamp 1:46 Who is Stacey Stevenson 5:27 Challenges that Stacey faced being as a minority group in corporate environments 13:12 Stacey shares her story of the importance of family quality 19:26 Shifting from corporate to nonprofit 23:26 Stacey's tip in getting into her role 28:46 Stacey's talks about being in parenthood 31:28 Stacey's life's vision 36:09 Tips on pivoting in life and getting through challenges Social Media Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/staceystevenson/ Family Equality https://www.familyequality.org/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars, welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, oh my gosh, I have Stacey Stevenson here. And let me just say that, by chance through my wife, Julie, I got to meet her. And then I went to our house for a fundraiser. And she is the consummate Rockstar, I'm just saying that she is from Texas, that she's been and done so many things in technology and everywhere that it's just amazing. So right now she's the CEO of Family and Quality, which is advancing equality for LGBTQ families, which Yes, thank you very much for that. And before that, she worked for Charles Schwab. And she did all kinds of things as the senior managing director there, she did voice tech and digital and talent. But mostly on top of that, she ran a pride ERG, and she'll tell us what that means. But she wanted to create a safe and inclusive environment for everybody. And so I love that you have done this. And I'm so happy to have you here so we can talk about all of that. Let's get going. Welcome to the show. Stacey Stevenson 01:44 Thank you, Patti. Thanks for having me. Patti Dobrowolski 01:46 Oh, man, that's so great. So I just want you to tell us a little bit about you tell us your story. And just tell us how did you get to do what you're doing now? And what's your past? Like? You're from Texas. So tell me about what it's like to be in Texas, cuz I haven't been here that long. And so to meet you was like, Oh, yes. Finally, my people, right. So tell me, what's your story? How did you get to do what you're doing now? Stacey Stevenson 02:12 Sure. So yes, I am a native Texan. And I'm from South Texas. So about six hours from Dallas, a small town called Robstown Texas. Yeah. And I, that's where I grew up. And, you know, at some point, I'll kind of fast forward a little bit about 20 or 21 years old, I decided that I was going to leave the small town. And you know, that really had a lot of things to do with being a queer person in a small town, Texas, it had a lot to do with having to drop out of high school after being pulled out of the closet. Patti Dobrowolski 02:46 Oh wow, somebody outed you? Stacey Stevenson 02:48 Yeah, someone outed me, you know, so it'd be a teenager who's discovering themselves and finding your first girlfriend, then that whole first love thing that happens that we all feel in high school, and to be drugged out of the closet when you're trying to figure out your own identity and love and what that all means, you know, it was pretty traumatic. And so being pulled out of the closet that led to dropping out of high school dropping out of high school, obviously lead to dead end jobs, lots of evictions, couchsurfing, all those sorts of things. I had to make a decision. Patti Dobrowolski 03:23 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 03:23 What did I want to do? And was I going to continue to live this life. And I'll say that I always had big dreams when I was a little girl. Patti Dobrowolski 03:31 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 03:31 And for some reason, I got away from those. But at about 20, 21, I was on my friend's couch, sleeping on his couch. And I said, You know what, I need to do something different. This is not the life that I planned for myself. So I scraped up $70 and jumped in the car and drove to Dallas, Texas, and that's, you know, 20 something years ago. And you know, really what that part of my life was all about was creating the life that I wanted to live. And so how do I do that as someone who is a GED graduate, and with maybe one or two college credits under my belt, right? And when I got to Dallas, I just decided to go in on everything and say, You know what, I want to learn technology. Is it possible to get a job in technology? Yes. And you know what I did? How do you kind of aging myself, I picked up a Windows 95 manual. Went back and read it, and then went to a job interview to be a technical support analyst. And I got the job. And that's where my technology, job path started with being a Technical Support Analyst. And from there, I decided that I loved leadership, and I saw how bad leadership really impacted employees and how great leadership really motivated employees. And I had a lot of examples of bad leaders. And so I started to also get into leadership. And from there, I had my first management position at a huge defence company, Northrop Grumman, and for Northrop Grumman, I went to Sabre, which is another 10 Yes, me here in the Dallas area, and From Sabre, I went to Charles Schwab. And that was, you know, kind of fast forwarding that was like a 20 something year corporate career, from technology to keep supply chain, organisational development, I think I've done it all. But in all of those positions, what was really constant was leadership. And the other thing I'll say, is that going back to school, right, and getting my bachelor's degree, getting my MBA, that was all part of the plan, and what led lag and all those jobs. Patti Dobrowolski 05:27 Oh, my gosh, I love that. And I think one of the things that I love particularly about that is that you came to this pivot point, right? Where you were on that couch, and you said to the person whose house you're in, I got to go do this $70 or not, you know, I'm going to go do it. And that piece takes so much courage. And I think, part of what I know from meeting you, right, and going to your house and meeting your sons and your wife, and just being in that environment, with all the people that were supporting family equality, right, was that I felt like, there was a through line in the stories that you told and that other people told about courage about standing up for yourself and making a way where there wasn't a way before. And I think, you know, I always ask people would you do with the challenges that you came up against? But what challenges did you face in all those corporate environments? Because, number one, you're coming in without their other people have an education, you haven't got one, you're coming in from that swinging. And then the colour of your skin? You got that going? Yes, you know, and you're gay. So let's just add all of that in there. And woman. So tell me a little bit about what was challenging and then environment? 06:43 Yeah, so you hit the nail on the head with the education piece. I think that was my own personal challenge in where I was in these spaces. I was getting interviewed for these positions, I obviously made it to the table to get interviewed and got the resumes and all those sorts of things. But this innate feeling of unworthiness was prevalent, because, well, you don't have an education, you know, all the other candidates have degrees, and they're not an adult trying to get their bachelor's degree, they've done this in college, etc. So having to deal with the education piece was really more of a personal issue for me, because I was sort of projecting and unworthiness in my presence when I was presenting myself and kind of going to people going, you know, I know, I don't have a bachelor's degree as the lead in state. Patti Dobrowolski 07:29 As the lead in. Yeah, yeah. Stacey Stevenson 07:31 They're not even asking me about it. Yeah. So that was my own personal challenge. And, and I think I showed up in different ways. When I was still dealing with that challenge, when I could have just been my best self and just been in there kicking butt, I have this sort of cloak of unworthiness that I have to deal with. So that was one of the challenges that that was really prevalent, especially early in my corporate career, you know, the fact of being a black woman, that was absolutely a challenge. And, you know, I always tell people, I've dealt with bias and discrimination, but I never know if it's because I'm black. Because I'm a woman, or because I'm queer. I don't know which one it is. So you're trying to balance those things. But I do know, you know, I was told by a manager that he couldn't put me in front of clients, because he didn't know if I was going to come out to those clients. And he felt that if I came out to those clients that it was going to harm his business. So I did deal with things like that. And so what does that cause? Now I'm closeted. Patti Dobrowolski 08:28 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 08:28 Now, I'm not being my authentic self. Now, I'm pretending to have a husband. Yes, exactly. We're in order to survive. And I think the other thing when you're the only LGBTQ plus person in the room, which happens a lot, I think, then we also just sort of just, by default, we start to kind of show up and close in, we're not being ourselves, and we're not telling the stories of our weekends with our partners, etc. So I dealt with that quite a bit. And, you know, one of the ways I think that I decided to really combat that is to start leading in employee resource groups. And when I was at Northrop Grumman, that was my first foray into being a part of a pride employee resource group. So we are supporting the employees that are LGBTQ and that they have resources, and they have a safe space to come meet every now and then every now and then to talk about their experiences at work, and how do we create the best experience for the network in that safe space for the network to exist and do their work? Patti Dobrowolski 09:25 Yeah, I think that an ERG or that employee resource group is so valuable there. And also, it's the place where you can be yourself. Because I think, you know, you can imagine I'm older than you are. So way back when when I came out, I mean, every single time I went into business, who I was working for, they would always say, you know, you can't come out there, you know, it's not gonna be an opportunity for you and I would just find a way to do it anyway, I would just do it. I didn't care what they said. And you know, Because I realised that if I could be myself in front of those people, they could be themselves. And so in some groups, I felt confident enough, or I had a deep enough bond where I would share that, right. But often it would just be with two or three people in the room that I was facilitating, I would share with them, it wasn't a thing where now you can just be yourself. And even now, in some circles, it's still shocking when I say my wife, and I, you know, and I make a point of it. I don't know about you, but I make a point. Because I want people to remember, hey, you know, the, yeah, I have a partner and she's doing great. So yeah, but I think that, that it's hard to bring your authentic self, when you feel like that there's so much judgement in the world based on not having an experience with someone like you. Stacey Stevenson 10:53 Yeah, I agree. You know what the other thing is, and I appreciate that cuz I wish that we had when you said you were still you would still do it anyway, even though you were told not to. And I wish that I had models like that like you in my career who are doing it. But I think the other thing is also cultural. So as an African American person, whose family is from the South who grew up Baptist. Patti Dobrowolski 11:15 Oh, yeah. Stacey Stevenson 11:15 And think about the whole coming out, you know, story, not just what happened at school in the way that the kids responded? How did my family respond? Yeah, my coming out, oh, how many times did the issue of church and God and being a sinner come up? And the messages that I was told as a little girl about homosexuality, live with me, and I think probably maybe even back then even the safest places? I think I still would have been hesitant because of those messages that stick with you that you're hearing at home, right before you can leave the nest. Patti Dobrowolski 11:50 Yes. And I think people now they realise how powerful your words are, or we hope that they do. But of course, you know, my parents. When I came out, I was 17. And they were like, my dad went around the side of the house and cried, you know, my mom's and my siblings said, you know, we love you no matter what. But what was true is my parents never told anyone that I was gay, until they were in their 70s. And towards the end of their life, they said it to one of their friends. And their friends said my son is gay. And they were like, oh, you know, finally. And you know, so you think about that. So they could say one thing, but they wouldn't tell anybody so that at my mother's funeral, right. And afterwards, the celebration, I was introducing my wife to them, because they had no idea that I was gay. No, not at all. And so, you know, they just knew what I done and accomplished and all those things. You know how it is. Stacey Stevenson 12:56 Oh, yeah, think about what kind of support system that could have been for your parents. Only had they said something. Right. Right. And kind of built that network. But again, trying generational differences. Patti Dobrowolski 13:06 That's right. Stacey Stevenson 13:07 Here is and I mean, I think it's awesome. That in their own way, I guess they supported you. Patti Dobrowolski 13:12 Yeah, they did. They did. I mean, you know, I found that card, I always tell this story to my wife, Julie, right. You know, you and your wife, and Julie and I've been married the same amount of time, right. But my mom for years, because I was a serial monogamist she had a card with everybody's name on it, and then there'll be a line through it, and then the next girlfriend's name with their phone number, and then a line through it. And then the next one, I found that in like a bar, after she had passed, I was like, Oh, my God, but she, you know, she always gave them everything Christmas presents, and was completely embracing. However, that was like a reflection of me. I was like, Oh, my God. And I'm glad I changed that habit. Right, exactly. Well, that's fascinating. So now talk a little bit about the role that you're in now, because I met your beautiful boys. And I think that what you're doing with family quality is amazing. So tell the listeners a little bit about that. Stacey Stevenson 14:08 Yeah. So I am, you know, on a backup a little bit, I left corporate America. Patti Dobrowolski 14:14 Yes. And so during the pandemic, but during the pandemic, right, and then why did you leave during the pandemic, right? Stacey Stevenson 14:21 So surprising if someone would have asked me a couple of what she's How long has this pandemic been around? Like, almost three years. So someone would have asked me in early 2020, or 2019, if I was going to leave Corporate America, I would have thought that they were Are you kidding? You're crazy. Patti Dobrowolski 14:36 Money is good. Leadership. Stacey Stevenson 14:39 Got my leadership. I got it right. And I like and again, go back to who I was, and who I thought I would not be. And now I'm here in Corporate America, like why would I ever take any of that away? And then during the pandemic, you know, I call it COVID Clarity. I think we all had COVID Clarity. Definitely He has so still having to pick still oh my god, yeah, we're still having it so much time to think. Patti Dobrowolski 15:06 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 15:06 And, you know, it gave me time to decide if I was really doing good in the world in the way that I wanted to. And if I was really putting forth all those challenges, I went through the coming out of the closet, what happened to my parents being rejected when we were trying to build our family? To all those things? How did I really want to use that in a way to help people? And you know, I made the decision that it was time to go do something different. And it was time to take a risk, it was time to bet on myself. And, you know, you could say, I bet on myself, you know, in the past, and I think I did, but it's like those bets, I think, have to keep getting bigger. Patti Dobrowolski 15:42 Well, this is a big bet. I mean, this was like, now you're stepping into your true self. Do you know what I'm saying? There, you're stepping into, you're the leader, you're the CEO. So that means you're overseeing all of it. But you're in your authentic stream, like there's not a moment that you're not living your full life. Stacey Stevenson 16:01 Exactly. And that was part of the COVID clarity to have. This isn't me, Charles Schwab is a great company. I think, you know, folks, they're great company, supportive of the LGBTQ+ community. And you know, all sorts of I think under representation or underrepresented people, when I was at 12, we really were trying to do our best to ensure that we were uplifting those people. Patti Dobrowolski 16:21 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 16:21 And then at the same time, was I living my authentic self. And I think to an extent, I thought that I was I'm leading an ERG, I'm out at work, I'm talking about my wife, and my kids, and people know who I am and what we do, and all those sorts of things. And then at the same time, there's still this authenticity, I think, as an LGBTQ+ person that for again, this cloak of even the maybe closetness that we still carry this I carry and didn't know I was carrying it. Fast forward to, I decided to apply for panel quality. And my wife thinks I'm crazy. She says, You love corporate America, this is your thing. This is what you do. She went back to that when I met you. You told me that this is what you do. And this is what you will do. And I was kind of you know, on this career trajectory. Patti Dobrowolski 17:04 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 17:05 And so she thought it was crazy. Maybe I thought I was a little bit crazy. But maybe that's great. If we sometimes get I think, a little bit crazier out of our comfort zone. But I decided to apply for this job. And yeah, you know, the at a CEO level, like he said, and the committee that was responsible for hiring, they had their doubts, because I didn't have extensive nonprofit experience that sat on boards. But what is this person going to offer? Patti Dobrowolski 17:27 Right. Stacey Stevenson 17:27 That the traditional nonprofit, you know, candidate could actually give us and I had to demonstrate that those years and years of business and leadership that I had had under my belt at Schwab and Sabre and Northrop Grumman, were beneficial to the nonprofit world. Patti Dobrowolski 17:44 Definitely. Stacey Stevenson 17:46 You know, but you have to demonstrate that and not only that, I have a lived experience, my wife and I live in Texas, we're a black lesbian couple in Texas, raising twin black boys. And by the way, we had a very rocky journey with you holding our family, including an adoption agency in Texas telling us that they wouldn't work with us that women were not going to pick us anyway. But by the way, we're not going to work with you, because you are a same sex couple, you know, having fertility doctors give us the runaround, you know, so that experience of being rejected when you're trying to build a family when you're you make that decision to have a child, which is just a huge decision. Patti Dobrowolski 18:28 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 18:28 And then you go forth, because that takes courage to write to say, yeah, like, I'm going to raise other humans, that's just a whole other level of courage as well. And then you go do that and take that big step. And then they tell you that you're not good enough, and that you can't do it, I felt I could take that live, that hurt. That pain, the experience of being in Corporate America, and take all that and make an effect and an impact and family quality. And thankfully, after very long, you know, almost six months interview process. Patti Dobrowolski 18:57 Really, the grill is really, really one side than the other. Stacey Stevenson 19:03 They selected me and I'm thankful and I'm so happy to be at family quality. I feel like I am where I am supposed to be. And it's almost like what took me so long to get here. Yeah. It took me so long to figure that out. But I think in life, it does take us some time to figure out where we truly belong. We're living someone else's life. We don't even know it. We're sometimes living someone else's life, or someone's out someone else's version of life. And we don't know. Patti Dobrowolski 19:26 Yeah, yeah, I would agree. I think that, you know, we get impacted by everything around us. And when we form a belief about who we should be and how we should act, and then we live that as if it's reality. And just like our personality, we think our personality is real. Instead of that, it's just one suit we put on and it can change over time. And that, you know, really when you work in the corporate sector, I mean, you just wear a certain suit really all the time, and you button yourself down in ways that are hard to explain, but you can feel it inside. And it reminds me when I was a kid, my mom would dress me up in these little frilly outfits and I would scream, you know, age 3 when I came in the house put on my real clothes, I need my real clothes. Yes. And that is always how I felt in corporate America, you know, and now I'm like, whatever, you know, I'm gonna wear I wear and be who I am. And these things will help to create the change. So you went from a corporate position to running a nonprofit. So what did you have to learn? And how do you have to grow in yourself in order to do that? Because those are two different cultures. I know from working at the Gates Foundation, there were three cultures. One was people from Microsoft, one was nonprofits and one more entrepreneurs that had come in. So what in your case? Would you have to manage or learn and do? Stacey Stevenson 20:50 Yeah, well, I had to learn that one, it is very different. So in terms of resources, and finances, you know, you think about the companies that I've worked for that if you had unlimited resources, but you had a pretty big budget. Patti Dobrowolski 21:04 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 21:05 What you needed to do. And all you needed to do is go through the the hierarchy, or sometimes bureaucracy to get an approval to get it. But the money was there, you got a nonprofit to be running a nonprofit, and to be so cognizant about the dollars, and these are donor dollars, and how are we using those in impactful way, but needing to run an organisation as efficiently and effective as possible, but not having the unlimited or, you know, the, you know, a big budget to do. So I had to learn very quickly, how do I stay nimble? How do I work within the confines of our budget, and also make something create something new. And that was a learning curve for me. And I think I'm getting around it of figuring out, I can work this within the budget, but we're going to have to be super creative. And I think what it's done is it's forced me to be even more creative than I would have sometimes when you have access to, you know, just a plethora of options, and you're not really as creative as you maybe we would be. And I had to get super creative. I think the other thing I had to learn is how to interact with the board members, because I've been a board member. Now I'm a co responsible to the board. Patti Dobrowolski 22:14 Exactly. Stacey Stevenson 22:15 Managing all those different board personalities. Patti Dobrowolski 22:17 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 22:18 Managing, you know, who is kind of like sceptical of maybe by being here, who's maybe a champion, how do I kind of bring everybody on board? And you know, I think the other challenge too, is just to be quite honest, was realising that I'm the first black leader in the history of family quality. And to be honest, after 42 years of this nonprofit being. Patti Dobrowolski 22:41 Wow. Stacey Stevenson 22:42 And you know, a while Patti, I was telling myself, I don't want to make that a thing. That's not a thing, you know. And I think that's a whole conditioning of African American people to have taught not to rock the boat a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 22:52 Yeah, yeah. Stacey Stevenson 22:52 When it comes to race. But it's not really about rocking boat. It's the fact Yeah, there are implications that come along with that, definitely, while I went in with eyes wide open, there are also things that I learned along the way, that being the first black leader and how people respond to you, and how you have to show up are still very different. And that's something that's a consistent theme, whether I'm in corporate or whether I'm in nonprofit, I'm still a black woman, and in the ways in which I have to show up are very different than some of my peers. So thinking about that, like. Patti Dobrowolski 23:26 Yeah, yeah, tell me tell me that, educate, educate the listeners a little bit about what that means. You have to show up somewhat differently. So how are you having to course correct or, you know, sort of position yourself? Stacey Stevenson 23:41 Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, I think it's really about you. We all want to show up. competent. Yeah. And I think for many of us, sometimes our resume and our background is enough to get people to buy into our vision, who we are, yeah, oftentimes for black woman in a clear black woman, we have to work harder at getting people to believe our merit, and that what we are bringing to the table is genuine and not we weren't put in this position, just because I got people asking me if I was a token, because I am the first black leader station. Patti Dobrowolski 24:18 Wow. Stacey Stevenson 24:19 So having to really fight that to go no, no, no, no, no, it's not tokenism. The board did its due diligence. And here's my long resume. And with all my accolades and things that I've done in my education, and I belong here, so it's really it's almost like this constant, reaffirming to others and sometimes ourselves that I belong in this. Patti Dobrowolski 24:39 Yes. Stacey Stevenson 24:39 Because I've done all this stuff. And my resume is just as great as any of my other peers who may not look like me or love like me. So it's a constant reaffirming and navigating and shimming that you have to do and thankfully, you know, I have a supporting board, but you know, I have, I'm responsible for to the board, to donors to the employees, all of that and there's implications that come along with that. But you have to continue. Patti Dobrowolski 25:02 Yeah, definitely. And I just think that sounds very tiresome to me. That's what to me, it feels, you know, I was talking to one of my guests was Lani Phillips, and we were talking about it. And she was like, it's exhausting. You know, it can be exhausting that piece of it. And I think I don't think people can appreciate that, if you have never lived that experience. Stacey Stevenson 25:26 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 25:26 How exhausting it really is, and how important it is to really note and check your bias that you bring to every conversation. I mean, that is, no matter who you are in the world, it's an everyday thing. It's not just one and done, read a book, take a workshop, whatever, you have to really go out in the world and have an experience. So that you know, I mean, it's incredible. And I just want to say, thank you so much for everything that you do in the world. And you you know, you really are a black leader in Dallas. That's what's true. Like you're recognised as that you've been, I, you know, I did all this back channel, looking at what you'd been up to listen to some other podcasts where you're like, Oh, my God, she's incredible. And you really are. But that's a very different, that's a very different thing to be working in Corporate America and then be running a nonprofit, yeah, you really are accountable to everyone. So that's like, that's a lot of shoulder, you know, you got to get those lifts, because that's what it is. And I think stakeholder engagement, what you're talking about there, you know, it's really, it's essential. And I was thinking, man, you really need a good therapist, you know, therapists. Stacey Stevenson 26:50 I have to rationally oftentimes I tell people, that my wife is probably tired of being my therapist. But you know, because that's what happens, right? We get up, yes. Or we come home, and we're glad to go. And we talk to our spouse, and we lay all this on them. Patti Dobrowolski 27:06 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 27:06 But I also will say, I just have to say something about therapy. You know, I'm someone who has what I would call a traumatic background. And then at the same time coming from the African American community where we don't really embrace a lot of times, health. I am so on board with people having therapists, and I fully support it, we need it, we need it. And that doesn't mean that you're anything wrong with you. Patti Dobrowolski 27:27 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 27:27 There's no crazy or anything. It's just you need an outlet. We all need that. Patti Dobrowolski 27:32 Yeah, that's right. You know, I was trained as a drama therapist. So I know all about the drama. And I think that it's essential for people to show up really in the way that they need to, and then to kind of sort through all the pieces of it. Because where we get in trouble is when we press ourselves down, to try to fit or hold back the feelings that we're having, instead of saying what's true, and then sorting it out with the other person. And I think that, that, when you are always having to be on guard, you don't get the opportunity to do that. You can't just call it as it is. And so part of I think the the challenge for all of us in this new era, you know, the pre COVID, you know, now we have an AC and so now we're in AC and so in that place, we have to be truly listening to each other, and then being authentic about what is true for us and know that, you know, you're not always going to say it right? And well, you're going to do the best you can. And that there's got to be a lot of grace for that a lot of grace Stacey Stevenson 28:45 Is AC after COVID? Patti Dobrowolski 28:46 After COVID. Yeah. Yeah, after COVID. Like I think pre COVID And after COVID. Because we're not after it, I don't think but you know, that's the moment when it started, right? And so now when you think about that, so you now have these two beautiful boys, are you having a good time with them? Stacey Stevenson 29:07 Speaking of authenticity, parenting is the most beautiful and challenging experience that a human can undertake. That's what I will say, and I am having fun with him. I'm also learning from them. And that is so hard because I am taught or retaught as parents that we are the authority figure. We know best we know it all. And then at the end of the day, I'm like, I don't know at all. Yeah. And how was it that I could actually learn something from the seven year old and let's be grudgingly I don't want to learn from them. But I am learning from them. And it's been a really it's been a stretching experience for me because I'm you know, I love my parents that you saw the story about my dad throwing the party that you attended, love my parents. And at the same time, I don't want to make some of the mistakes that my parents made. So I'm having lots of fun and then also try to be cognizant of not making the mistakes and I I'm going to make mistakes. I'm going to screw it. I already know that but, but fun fun is the thing that we're trying to implement here at the house. Because again, petty things can get so damn serious sometimes. Patti Dobrowolski 30:10 Oh, yeah, I think and people are, you know, I think there's all the boundary setting piece, right? So the boundaries, and then the freedom, and then you know, the chaos, and you've got twins so they can work you. Stacey Stevenson 30:25 With each other. They're like, they like to do the tag team thing, you know? Yeah. But you know what we're having fun. What I will say about that? Is that just what we try to instil in them, because they get a lot of this from school, why do you have two moms or ew you have two moms. You know, I told the story of the house party about a teacher who was treating London badly. And we found out later, it's because he had two moms. And what I can say is that, you always wonder, how's that going to affect your kids? And then you sometimes I think, for the level of guilt, because they're having to take the shoulder that burden. They're being advocates at seven years old, you know, you and I know what advocacy is, and how hard and emotional that is. And it's the same in our kids are doing it to you that they have embraced the whole having a trauma thing, a mom and a mommy, it's like no problem. Like, what do you mean, what are you asking for? You know, I love my family, you know, and I love that, you know, you just never know. And we're in a, we're in a difficult environment, Texas, it can be a difficult environment from an inclusivity perspective for our community, as I'm sure you know. Yeah. And I'm so glad that they see the beauty in their family. Patti Dobrowolski 31:28 Yes, and and they every way talk about it, you know, I think that for them, it's like, yeah, no big deal. And I would think, you know, to me, you know, I was thinking about the things that make me mad. And this the thing is, the things that make me mad are the fact that this era that we're living in, didn't happen when I was coming out, you know, like those things I'm like, Yeah, but still in some pockets of the world, it's still the same, you know, things haven't changed. We live in Texas, you know, and I always read on Twitter, you know, they have things that happen in Texas there. And if you want a good laugh, and a good cry, just real people, right. But now, when you think about so I love that you started this whole conversation with talking about this wasn't the vision that you had of your life? So I'm curious, what do you envision for yourself, like, best case scenario, you know, three years from now, you know, what do you see yourself doing or being? What's that look like? Or when you're thinking about your trajectory? Stacey Stevenson 32:31 Sure. Learning to be of service to others. Yeah. And figuring out how do I do that in a really authentic way? Patti Dobrowolski 32:41 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 32:41 But at the same time, living the dreams that I have for myself, too. And I think that we get to live more of the dreams that we have. And we burn that service to others as part of the picture, not just service to ourselves. And if I get very specific, I want a best selling book. I want a New York Times bestseller book. Patti Dobrowolski 32:59 Alright. Stacey Stevenson 32:59 You know, I spent you did some of the research. And I've written a story for my time when I was a self harmer from age 15. Yes, it went viral, I guess somewhat, right. Patti Dobrowolski 33:09 Yes. Stacey Stevenson 33:10 But I would love to create a book on that. Patti Dobrowolski 33:12 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 33:13 Because people don't know that in the black community that we are cutting. So I would love to three years down the line is to have a book is to continue to be in the nonprofit space and to grow family quality, for to the budget that we have to have even larger budget in the larger budget we have is not just for budget sake, it means that we can serve more families, I want to be a part of that change. And then just working with folks like you to make change in Texas. What do we love to see in three years time, Texas be more like where you and your wife came from? in California? Patti Dobrowolski 33:44 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 33:44 In terms of laws and inclusivity. And just, you know, kind of progressive thought I would love to be a part of that change. And on a beach somewhere more authentic. Patti Dobrowolski 33:54 Yeah. That's so true. I just wanna I just want to clarify, though, my wife is from the Midwest. Stacey Stevenson 34:00 So she, she came? Patti Dobrowolski 34:02 Yes, she came from Iowa. And I came from California, and we met in Colorado. So we lived in multiple states, but she's not from California. I'm sure she wishes she was living in California, somewhere where the sun shines all the time, even better. But you know, I think that it is the opportunity. I think, wherever you have the most challenges, you're placed there, because you have this great opportunity to serve. And if you can figure out how do I serve within this environment in such a way that I can help transform the lives of this person and that person. It's not always big change, you know, big change is 3.5% of an area if you can get 3.5% to come together in a non violent way. That's how change occurs on a massive scale. And so we have to just assume that we're part of of Texas is 3.5%. And that somewhere in here, we're going to find the rest of that 3.5%. And we're going to do what needs to be done here, which is just shift to what people know, in their heart is the right thing, which is love. Stacey Stevenson 35:18 It's all about love. And some people I think, sometimes want to give up on Texas like, oh, there's no way we can make change there. I don't believe that. And I'm the kind of person who believes that there's always a way. Patti Dobrowolski 35:27 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 35:28 You know, to do something to make change. It's in so I'm, we'll work together. Patti Dobrowolski 35:32 We'll do it. We will. Yeah, we will. Because we're neighbours down the street. I know. I know it. I'm coming to your neighbourhood to get some bagels and just a few minutes. So you know. Stacey Stevenson 35:43 Yes. You have to try that bagel shop. Patti Dobrowolski 35:45 Oh, yeah. Well, you can meet me there after we're done. I'll be over there. Oh, you'll be going to work though. I'm sure. Stacey Stevenson 35:50 I'll be do I've been back to back meetings. Patti Dobrowolski 35:53 Oh, yeah. I should be dropping them off at your house. And since I'm not I'm saying, Oh, do Stacey Stevenson 35:59 They have great like, do they have everything they go on? Patti Dobrowolski 36:02 Yeah, they have? Oh, it's unbelievable. Yeah. Oh, it's just everything that you ever loved. Stacey Stevenson 36:09 There? Patti Dobrowolski 36:09 Is there? Yeah. Oh, Dan's bagels. Fantastic. Now, so tell people when you think about, you know, all of the ways in which you have been able to pivot from the time you were on that couch to working in those multiple organisations? What piece of advice would you give to people that are listening? who maybe need to make a pivot in some area? Who had that hard conversation with themselves during COVID? What would you say? What would be some tips? Stacey Stevenson 36:36 Yeah. So one of the things I said earlier is betting on yourself. And I think that it's easier said than done. But all of us have these great dreams and these hopes, and sometimes that's all they end up being is just dreams and hopes. I think that you have to bet on yourself, no matter what the naysayers are saying. And when I was on that couch, I had people tell me, why would you ever go to Dallas? You number one, you don't have enough money? Number two, you're not going to make it number three, you don't have an education. Patti Dobrowolski 37:08 That's right. Stacey Stevenson 37:08 And, and whether I'm on the couch, or whether I'm at Charles Schwab having this really deep moment of contemplation going, should I leave? And I had voices telling me to why would you do that? But what would you do so? Or why are you doing it so better yourself in don't listen to the naysayers because I think that all of us in our heart knew exactly what we truly need. It's just that we don't believe it. We don't listen to it. Patti Dobrowolski 37:33 Right. Stacey Stevenson 37:33 But that we let the crowd lead us more than I think we let ourselves lead ourselves in our path. So that on yourself. And I think that this whole notion of you know, one of the things I got out of your session that we had with you the other day that the trading session, be outrageous. And I didn't know at the time that I was being outrageous on that couch. I didn't know at that time, it was being outrageous when I decided to be Charles Schwab. But when you said that the other day, I was like, Oh, I was being outrageous. And you know, in their outrageous is on a spectrum, right doesn't have to be something like you just left your job and you will have another income outrageous on a spectrum. But push yourself, be uncomfortable. Do something that's scary, and see what happens. And I think that we need to be more outrageous, less fearful and better ourselves. Patti Dobrowolski 38:20 Yeah. Stacey Stevenson 38:21 That's that's the key. Patti Dobrowolski 38:21 I love that. I love that big bet. Bet on yourself and be courageous and outrageous. You got to be outrageous. And that could be as simple as getting your eyebrows waxed. Who knows? Stacey Stevenson 38:32 Absolutely. Patti Dobrowolski 38:32 You know what I'm saying? Stacey Stevenson 38:34 And the best keep changing. Patti? I'll say that to you. That's right, maybe you're betting you know, this is happens when people are I'm not a gambler. But I'm sure that if you keep winning, you continue to bet on yourself. And even a bigger, bigger way. Keep up in the butt to keep increasing your bets, as you would be surprised at what happens and I'm sure you've done it in your life too. We're so afraid and we make that leap and that bet and maybe it doesn't happen exactly the way we think it's going to happen. But in the end, we end up where we need to be and. Patti Dobrowolski 38:59 That's right. Stacey Stevenson 39:00 That's what I suggest. Patti Dobrowolski 39:02 Yeah, I love it. And you know, the bigger the bet the more courage that you build and the more confidence you build to go out and do the next thing and the next thing because who knew you know you were just going in and reading a manual on applying for the job and getting it right and then look at where you are you know in the life you've built for yourself and that's really what it's about. So I thank you so much. Thank you hear this amazing it was so much fun and I can't wait to see you and have bagels with you. Stacey Stevenson 39:33 I'm craving bagels now Patti Dobrowolski 39:34 I know it. I thank you so much and listeners just for all of you. Just be sure to look in the show notes for how you can follow Stacey and get in on what she's doing and supporter in any way you can. And thank you again everybody go out you know do what you do and Up Your Creative Genius. Let's do this. Thank you Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy, get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Natalie Webb is the executive director of Cafecita, a fair trade coffee company focused on women's empowerment and environmental sustainability. Prior to moving into the coffee world, Natalie had worked as a human rights lawyer, traveling to over 70 countries and living in 10, before returning to her hometown of Los Angeles to create a company that combined her love of coffee with her passion for social justice. Timestamp 1:21 What made who Natalie Webbs is today 12:08 Dive deep into the background of Cafecita 13:59 The process of finding the right coffee plantations 17:57 Natalie shares her shift from human rights lawyer to entrepreneur 21:08 Natalie shares tips in team managing as a leader 23:37 Meeting her coffee growers 27:35 Walking through the day as Natalie 32:39 Accomplishing the Cafecita mission 34:38 Natalie shares her tips about pivoting businesses and the importance of support squad Social Media Cafecita's socials are: Website: www.cafecitacoffee.com Instagram: @cafecitacoffee Facebook: @cafecitacoffee Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars, welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, oh my gosh, I have Natalie Webb here from Cafecita, you are gonna love her. She's so incredible. So talk about a big, big pivot. This is somebody who really literally was the first I want to say what your coffee company is that you're about focusing on women's empowerment and environmental sustainability in the coffee industry. And that you were a human rights activist lawyer in 70 countries and you lived in 10 of them. And then you went into coffee. I am. This is just so incredible. So I just can't wait to hear from you. Welcome to the show. Natalie Webb 01:18 Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Patti Dobrowolski 01:21 All right, you got to tell us the story of you. Because this is amazing that what you did in the world, I kind of want to know, like, how did you get the idea that you were going to a be a human rights lawyer? And then what was that like for you? And then why did you shift you know, all these things. So take your time and tell us really from this start a birth happens. And then Natalie Webb came? And tell me, you know, like tell us about your past a little bit. So we get to know you? Are you from LA? You live in LA now? Natalie Webb 01:54 Yeah, so I am originally from LA born and raised and left though when I was 18. I actually really don't like LA growing up, which is funny that I'm back here. So I'll get to that. But I'm left when I was 18. I'm a dual citizen with the UK. So when I worked over there, which was very cool, because I worked as a bartender, so as an 18 year old American. Patti Dobrowolski 02:19 Yes, exactly what a cool job to have when you're at 18, you know, yes. Natalie Webb 02:25 Completely. And that actually started just my love of travel. I mean, I grew up, you know, travelling with family, especially going into go back to London to visit my mom's side of the family. But yeah, I just became completely enamoured with it. And from there, it kind of took off. So I came back after that first gap year went to college did multiple study abroad. Patti Dobrowolski 02:50 So everybody, I want you to hear that. She said that first gap year, right? So you know, any of you that are listening, we're into the gap year thing, because that's how you figure out who you are and what you want to do. And I took a gap year to I travelled in my gap year because I had to I didn't have very much money. So it was a very impoverished travelling, but it was okay. Natalie Webb 03:10 But I mean, I think when you're 18 in your 20s, or whenever, it's a great way to travel also to do that backpacking, because you really experience a country from a different perspective. And I feel like I connected more with people. I was doing couchsurfing, which I don't know if you know that website, but it's legit and on people's couches. So I came back to college did some study abroad, actually, one of them was in Singapore. And during that semester, I started scuba diving and completely fell in love with it. And then decided when I was done with my undergrad that I wanted to be a dive master. So spent a year second gap year working as a dive master. Patti Dobrowolski 03:52 Under the water, you were underwater breathing. Natalie Webb 03:56 Like a instructors assistant basically. Patti Dobrowolski 03:58 Yeah. Natalie Webb 03:59 And then another semester abroad that I did in undergrad was in Ghana. And when I was in Ghana, for the whole semester, we had to do a research assignment. And we could choose any topic that we wanted. And when I was there, it was just very eye opening for me to kind of see how the world worked as far as international economics. So seeing that Ghana had all these raw materials, but nothing was being like manufactured in the country. So everything was being imported. And I started looking more and more I decided to do the research on gold mining, which used to be the Gold Coast. Right? So right still has this whole history from colonisation. And it still has the same infrastructure, which is all about getting the gold as quickly out of the country for as cheaply as possible to other countries that them are actually making all the money off of it. So. Patti Dobrowolski 04:48 Typical story in Africa about the resources and other countries right, where people come in, especially if it's not developed economy, then they just come in and take advantage of that. Yeah. We'll give you some money, and maybe we'll build some roads for you, maybe we'll put in some water. But then what happens? We know is the story. Natalie Webb 05:07 Absolutely. And so I realise all of the companies that were doing gold money, were all foreign corporations. And they were just completely raking in all of the laws, the labour laws, environmental laws. I mean, it was terrible. And it was kind of left to the nonprofits to hold these corporations accountable, which was very difficult. So the way that it was most effective is if those nonprofits teamed up with nonprofits in the US or Canada, or where the corporations were actually based to try to hold them accountable in their home country. So all of us to say, this is why I went to law school. This is like an amazing semester for me. And I just decided I want to do human rights law and corporate accountability. Patti Dobrowolski 05:49 I love that I love that corporate accountability. We're always going for that, right? We always want to hold this corporation. Natalie Webb 05:56 Yeah, because when I got into it, it was called corporate accountability. Now they call it corporate social responsibility. And it's been a little bit softer than it had been. Unfortunately, when I was in law school, actually, the laws that were being used to hold corporations accountable. The Supreme Court, then completely shut it down. But like, really. Patti Dobrowolski 06:14 Pretty much, they pretty much did. Yeah, yeah. Natalie Webb 06:17 So yeah, so all like the kind of piecemeal stories, but basically, I knew I wanted to be a lawyer. I still took another gap year to work as a dive master. And then I moved to New York. I went to law school there. Then did you go to NYU there? Where did you go? CUNY, CUNY Univer. Yeah. Which is, like I went to Santa Cruz for my undergrad. And. Patti Dobrowolski 06:40 That's a good, that's a good segue. Yes, it is. Whoa, I so know it because I went to Evergreen. So you can imagine, almost like going to Santa Cruz. Natalie Webb 06:54 Absolutely. So I felt very lucky to be around law students who all wanted to become public defenders, and like, all about kind of using the law for the good and for the people. So I came out of law school, right during the foreclosure crisis. And so my first job was actually then doing foreclosure prevention, that then turned into eviction prevention, and then I was doing gender based violence work. And then I was doing immigration policy. And then I was doing post conviction relief work. So it was a lot of amazing work that I was doing, and I really liked it. But I always knew I wanted to do my own thing. So I really spent years kind of thinking about what that would be, because my background was always working on nonprofits, my go to thought was going to be okay, I'm going to start a nonprofit, like, this is what I want to do. But I also had seen that so much of the nonprofit world is really focused on grant writing grant reporting, you know, they know funding, and so whatever the funders want the kind of that's the work that they're going to do. They're very reliant on it. Patti Dobrowolski 08:02 Yeah. It doesn't really give you the place to land, your heart and a spot, it means that you're always focused on what are they going to fund. And that that really, I think, for any entrepreneur, this is the tricky part. Because when you do pitch for funding, and whether you have a product or a service, you want to make sure that you are holding true to your vision of what it is. And it's hard to do. They relate. Natalie Webb 08:29 Completely, especially also basically trying to figure out the business model that was the most efficient that I was comfortable with coming in from this one. I can't tech capitalists ideology also seem the downfall of nonprofits. And so when I was in my last lawyer position, doing the post conviction relief work, it was actually remote work, even though it was before the pandemic. So before it was. Patti Dobrowolski 08:55 Right, you were ahead of the curve on Well, 70 countries and lived in 10. You know, I'm thinking you know, you skipped over that I went from this country, this country this Yeah, you and the plane and then, you know, like that. Okay, you couldn't do that now. Natalie Webb 09:11 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So while I was in that job, I was living in Oaxaca, Mexico, which is one of my favourite places in the world. I just loved it so much. And while I was there as volunteering a few organisations, but one of them was this one called In Via. And they do responsible tourism, so they'll take people out to the villages surrounding Oaxaca to visit these women artisans, who are making an amazing like their weavers and potter's and just an incredibly cool art and the money that they make from the tours they then use as no interest loans to those artisans to get their businesses up and running. Oh, nice, self sustaining and being empowered and it's been incredibly successful. And it just was so inspiring to me because I was self sustaining nonprofit, they weren't relying on grants. They don't have to do any of that. They don't have to. Patti Dobrowolski 10:03 Yeah, it was all coming from the work that was being done in May. Yeah. Natalie Webb 10:07 Yeah, really, part of it was great. And so that's why I decided, okay, I want to do a social enterprise that's like this. And then I had to decide, okay, what was the business side going to be to sustain the nonprofit side, and I've just always loved coffee. It's something I mean, especially as a lawyer, as a student, like, it's just been such a big part of my life. And then when I was living abroad, and working remote, I was always working from cafes. And so seeing just that cafe culture, the similarities around the world, the differences, like the community aspect of all of them, I just love it so much. And so the original plan was I was going in, I was like, Okay, going open a cafe, and the cafe will be able to do all these programmes. And so this was actually like. Patti Dobrowolski 10:52 2019, wasn't it that you were planning all this? Right? Natalie Webb 10:55 So I started thinking about it around them. But I actually decided, Okay, I'm going to do this, like really kind of about it. In 2020. Patti Dobrowolski 11:06 I was Oh, yay. Great, great time to launch a venture. Definitely. Natalie Webb 11:12 Exactly. So I was in Morocco at the time, working from there. And I was like taking photos of cafes, and I was like, This is so awesome. I'm so excited. I'm so inspired. And then was incredibly lucky with timing that actually left Morocco, the week that like, they shut their borders down until I left right before that happened without knowing just kind of looking in retrospect how lucky I was. And then I was flying back when the ban on the European travel was announced, like landed and was like, Oh, this happened while I was in the air, and then la completely shut down. So not the best time to open a cafe and so to a coffee company. And so now, we do have ecommerce and half wholesale to other cafes. And hopefully the goal is to one day still have a cafe. But for now, it's been really great actually doing e commerce and working with other Cafe owners, because there's still that community aspect in that. Patti Dobrowolski 12:08 Yeah, that's fantastic. Wow. So that's crazy. But now talk about what your whole business model is based on because this, I mean, that's an incredible journey to get to there. But the thing that I love about it is you're doing something really different around the coffee, you aren't just going and grabbing coffee from countries and getting it at the price, right? You're doing something else with it. So say more about that. Natalie Webb 12:33 Absolutely. So the Coffee Company and the business model that Cafecita is is that all of our beans are single origin, organic, and Fairtrade certified. And they all come from sustainable women on coffee farms and Co Ops. And then a percentage of every sale goes to supporting women's nonprofits around the world. Starting with India, the organisation I volunteered with in Osaka that I was so inspired by so you get a percentage of every sale. So it's been amazing. And I should also backtrack to say that when I started researching cafes and the coffee industry, I just saw how male dominated it is and how the farms they'll have up to 70% of the manual labour is women. But they're far less represented as the farm owners or any type of management position. And then even when they do own the farms, the price that they're getting for their coffee is way lower. And they're not having like the same support or the resources. And so how, yeah, it's been interesting, because it's all this new research, I mean, new like in the past 1015 years, I would say yes, but because so many of the coffee companies in the US are also owned by men. It's this corner of the coffee industry that people are interested in, but like, hasn't really been tapped into. And so I was like, that's what cafecito is going to be like That's exactly it. And so we really want like from the beans all the way to the cup and beyond to really be supporting like women's empowerment. Patti Dobrowolski 13:59 Oh, that is so incredible. Well, no surprise that the coffee plantations right and who's running them and who's profiting from them? Are men. I mean, these are predominantly countries where it is still many places a male dominated industry and our culture, right. So how did you go about finding those plantations, that coffee farms because that is like crazy. Natalie Webb 14:28 Yeah, so luckily, I was introduced to our importer, which is sustainable harvest, and they're based in Portland, but their whole model is relationships. They have relationships with these farms for decades. And, like their mission is very aligned with Kapha. Sita because also it was launched in 20. I was really reliant on sustainable harvest and to have those relationships already established. And so to them, I'm able to connect with the farms and so excited because from the time I launched it, I have been, like, I cannot wait to actually go to the farms and like meet with the women. And yes, that very personal connection. But it hasn't been safe. And I haven't wanted to go until I feel. Patti Dobrowolski 15:14 No, that's right. That's right. Or because you might get trapped there not so much that you wouldn't be worried about getting COVID there, which is one concern, but I think it's more that you couldn't get back into the US. Oh, no, they shut down. Natalie Webb 15:26 Yeah, or bringing COVID. That was my biggest concern is like going into these villages and like bringing it on. So yeah, yeah, it was just something I wanted to be make sure everybody was vaccinated and boosted and we're good. So now we have a trip, hopefully coming up soon, which I'm very, very excited about. And that will be to our producers in Chiapas. Patti Dobrowolski 15:48 Well, and where are they? You know, what part of the world is it Central America, South America, tell us where some of those sustainable farms are. So we get a sense of where those beans are coming from, because we know that they're dried in different ways in different countries, you know, but that part of the world I think where you're getting is the best way to treat the coffee. Right? Natalie Webb 16:10 Right. So right now we're working with producers in Peru, Colombia and Mexico in the past have worked with producers in Rwanda, Guatemala, and Honduras as well. So it's as the harvest come in that we just which coffees we take on which has been really cool because it also means we get to try out different coffees from everywhere and kind of figure out what the ones that we like. So the majority are Latin America Central and South but I really love the East African coffees. So I'm always trying to pull those essentially are going get some from Indonesia soon as well. Patti Dobrowolski 16:44 Oh, fantastic. Now then, are you doing just green bean? Are you doing roasting? What are you selling and doing with it? Once you get to beans? No, no, I can I get some green put it in my own roaster. Can I get some already roasted? Yeah. So we buy the green and then we roast to order. So it's very, very, like the quality is something I've been very non uncompromising about and so that's why it's, you know, single origin organic fairtrade. I mean, like the coffee's Yeah, it's amazing. This, you know, if you're into coffee, like I can't, it has to be the best. So we roast the order. So everything's very fresh when we ship it out. And we roast here in LA, and then the E commerce people buy through our website, and that we can ship that all over the US. And then the cafe that we're working with right now are also in Los Angeles right now. But then we're also on quite a few digital marketplace platforms, which has been really great. So that's also like throughout the US. And then we're also do a lot of corporate gift DM. So if companies want to buy a lot of bags as gifts for their employees, or for marketing, and all of that we tapped into that, which is been great as well. That's fantastic. So this is a big shift from being a human rights lawyer to being, you know, a business owner and entrepreneur with a product. So how did you make that shift? I mean, what did you do? I mean, like, that must have been like a big Peruvian mountain you are going to have, right? Natalie Webb 18:17 Absolutely. And I am still climbing on that. So yeah, it is such a journey. It's been great, though, because I was so excited going into it about having that something in myself that I can create and the amount of work that I put into it, you see that work, you know. So it's definitely challenging. There's skill sets that I had going into it of being detail oriented, or organising things that are more like lawyer skills that have been incredibly useful. But then there's also a lot of new skills that I have to learn. And I'm working on it. Patti Dobrowolski 18:51 Like Winning Others Over. What's the new skill that you have to learn, like saying no, or knowing the quality or what's that? Natalie Webb 19:01 Yes, definitely coffee, because, you know, going into that it's like, Oh, I love coffee. I know what I like. But let me tell you how nuanced it is. So it's really working with the roasters because they have 30 years experience. And they're, like, amazing. And so I really, that's something that I definitely have a team that's like coffee experts to make sure everything is great. But it's also just for me, my biggest thing is management. I am sometimes a little bit too nice. I feel and I really like the team aspect of things, which is great when you have a good team, but if somebody I've like we've had interns before where it's a little bit challenging because they're not coming through with the work that they said and then are underperforming. Patti Dobrowolski 19:36 Yeah. And then how to give them feedback. Right. Natalie Webb 19:40 Exactly. Exactly. So for example, that's things like that, that I'm still working on. But it's good. I mean, yeah, I'm definitely enjoying the process. Patti Dobrowolski 19:48 I love that and, you know, I think these are the things you don't realise when you go into business for yourself. Eventually, you're gonna have to have help, and it happens usually sooner than later and then you need to manage the help. And that is like it's not as precise a skill as being a lawyer, you know, reading a document and making sure that it's clear and etc. It is the same principles, of course, but it's just happens in a completely different way. So that is so amazing. Okay, take a pause just for one second, will you. So one of the reasons that I thought we should stop is because I wanted to make sure I could ask you some deeper questions about the employee thing, because I was saying, you know, this is the and I didn't say this on the podcast, but when we stopped, I said, this is my Achilles heel to is giving people feedback, you know, you have to give people feedback, often, you can't just assume that they know how, and I don't know about you, but my first admin, that worked for me, that was like, she was a star player. So everybody, I compare that bar to her every time and I'm like, Whoa, that person's not Emer I mean, you know, like that, because she was so incredible. And her work ethic, and she understood my voice and you know, all these things. And so how are you doing with do like an all hands meeting? What do you do to get your team aligned? Natalie Webb 21:14 You know, that's exactly it, it's very hard, it was hard for me, because I've realised, my default is to be so nice, right? And to assume, like your first admin, they're just going to get it, we're gonna be on the same page, and there's gonna be no issues. But of course, that doesn't always happen. So one of the things from living in New York that I really appreciate is when people are direct, like, I do not get offended, I do not take it. I'm not defensive. Like, just tell it to me straight. Yeah, but it's funny, because it's like, that's how I like people to interact with me. Patti Dobrowolski 21:43 But being that way. It's a skill, right? Natalie Webb 21:48 It is, it is and so it's something I'm still learning, and also just trying to put more structure, you know, with the people that I work with, so that there's boundaries is expectations, because I think once people know that people are fine with it, but it's almost putting those boundaries and those expectations on someone, it's a skill. Patti Dobrowolski 22:07 Yeah, did you have to practice? Like, I always tell people, you know, practice at home and your relationships, about how to set boundaries there. Because it's easy to set boundaries for me with my partner, I'm like, do not leave the covers. This is what she said to me. Do not leave the cupboards open. You're driving me crazy, right? And I'm like, Yeah, I couldn't say that to one of my employees. But I could say something like, you know, that sandwich, where I say, You're doing such a great, I love having you on my team. You're magnificent. And I want to walk you through how this process might work better for me. And then you give me feedback. And actually, my friend Hannah, not too long ago taught me how to do that better, because she was like, you knew what the feedback thing. You got to figure that out? Because you're not so good at it. And I'm like, Oh, thank you. Natalie Webb 22:55 That's great feedback. Patti Dobrowolski 22:57 She gave me like a little tip. I know, she gave me a little tip sheet. So it's on my whiteboard. It's not in this house where I am, but it's on my whiteboard. So when I'm about to get feedback, I look at it. Mm hm. Be kind, you know, be nice, be honest. And be direct, you know, mess around, right? Natalie Webb 23:15 That's exactly it. And I mean, I think most people, at least the people that I've worked with, like, they want to do better people want to be good workers, you know, so Exactly. Just be positive, like focus on the good and then work together to set. Patti Dobrowolski 23:28 Yeah, yeah. Now you're good to go on a trip to meet some of the growers, right. Yeah. So tell me, where are you going? Where are you going to go first. Natalie Webb 23:36 So we're going to Chiapas. Right now I'm going with our photographer who is amazing. By the way, he also just started and incredibly happy to be working with him. So he's already been in Oaxaca. Patti Dobrowolski 23:49 Do you already went through the boundary process with him? Yes. This is what I want you to shoot. I do not want you to shoot this do not shoot my left side shoot my right. You know, like that, right? Natalie Webb 23:59 Well, it just you're talking about your first admin, sometimes people just quick. I mean, that is like the ideal. Yeah, it doesn't always happen. And with him, I feel very grateful that it does appear to be happening like that, which is nice. And so he wasn't Oaxaca he actually I think just yesterday is now in Chiapas. So he's already there. And I'm hoping to go down in a couple of weeks as well. Patti Dobrowolski 24:18 So all right, she gonna fly there. You're gonna Is it close? Yeah, you drive you're flying? You still Yeah. Or is it? Where is it? Where is it in Mexico? Natalie Webb 24:25 Southern state of Mexico, right? Almost right next to it is next to Guatemala. But of course, where the farm is, is out in the countryside. So flying into the main airport. They're staying in San Cristobal, which is this really cool city that I've been wanting to see. And then it's like a four or maybe even longer drive to like closest little village and then from there, it's another four hour drive to the farm. So from that point on the farm will pick us up and then when we're out there, we'll do homestays and really get to know the community, which is the whole thing. Patti Dobrowolski 24:34 Oh, that's so cool. Natalie Webb 24:58 Oh, yeah, and go on the farm and just meet the woman see how everything works, and then eventually make our way back. So I cannot wait. Patti Dobrowolski 25:09 Oh, that sounds so exciting. I'm crossing my fingers that everything stays open. Thank you, you know what I mean? It's just so it's so open and close, open and close. And I think, you know, learning how to be in a state of flux, like April Renee would say it state of flux. Be good about that. But that's what's true when you travel anyway, you know, you being a season traveller, you know. Natalie Webb 25:31 Absolutely. And I was gonna say, most of Cafecita starting in 2020, it has been a huge skill for us to always pivot. So I like I really always try to think of, you know, being a palm tree. Patti Dobrowolski 25:45 So when now, did you start to do a brick and mortar? Do you have any brick and mortar presence at all, did you? Natalie Webb 25:52 Not yet because really, I mean, everything shut down before I could even get started luckily, right. So I haven't had to have that overhead with the rent or with all the employees and all of that. So in that sense, it has been great to be able to pivot so easily with all the flux that's going on. But this semester, Cafecita also has been very, very fortunate to work with the UC Irvine. So their law school did all our trademarks. And now their small business clinic is actually going to be helping us and they specialise in the brick and mortar. So we will be starting this semester, figuring out all the permits and the licencing and all that fun stuff. Like the lawyers do it despite being a lawyer. Patti Dobrowolski 26:37 Yeah, yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, watch out. Watch out coffee in LA. We know. We're talking to here. Watch out. We're gonna surpass you in any second. Well, that's fantastic. Now, how do you balance your work life with your personal life? How do you keep all that in balance? Natalie Webb 26:58 Balance? What is that? Yeah, it's been really difficult to be honest. It's been so so busy, like the first year was really working on a foundation. And that seemed, you know, that was a little bit kind of slower moving and really reaching out. And now it's the scaling and it's yeah, very inconsistent at the moment where it'll be like super busy one week, and then maybe like, slower orders next week. And so it's been a lot. I mean, even this morning, and it's been like completely running around LA. Yeah, cafe is going to the roaster. I haven't go back to the roaster like making calls. Patti Dobrowolski 27:35 Yeah, yeah. Well, this is good. All right, because I love to ask people like, tell me, you know, what's your day? What's the day in the life of your cafe Sita, like for you? What do you do in the morning to prep yourself? Get ready. So when you're thinking about, you know, this is how I prepare, so that I can deliver and then how do I calm down at night? Walk us through like a day of yours, if you would? Natalie Webb 27:56 Absolutely. Well, I feel like I should also say that is the ideal day that I know. I should know. Patti Dobrowolski 28:02 I want real day. I want the real day. I want the real day. Hey, give us the real stuff here. Natalie Webb 28:07 Yeah. So on a real day, it's like normally, I'm also like a big time cyclist. I'm gonna be racing this year, so. Oh, right. Yeah. So waking up trying to get a ride in the morning, which has been really difficult during winter, because it's like 40 degrees, even in Los Angeles Patti Dobrowolski 28:28 But you could do Swift, you could get on your trainer and do Swift. Natalie Webb 28:32 Get a trainer. That's the whole thing. Patti Dobrowolski 28:33 There's cheap trainers, you just need your power metre and then you can go that's what I do. I don't have one of those fancy ones that ships for you and makes it harder. I just make it harder, right? Natalie Webb 28:43 Yeah, yeah, it's true. Patti Dobrowolski 28:46 But yeah, so try to get a ride in. All right. All right. Natalie Webb 28:48 And then like, I try to have like coffee be like a ritual every morning. And then like, do the pour over do the Americano and like, kind of have that, like, get the day started, sit down, and then read the news, and then start with the emails. And that normally takes a really long time. And that's actually one of my challenges is it's so easy to kind of get down the rabbit hole when you're sitting in front of your computer because there's so much to do. Patti Dobrowolski 29:11 Yeah. Natalie Webb 29:11 And then time just passes. So I also always have to go to the roasters and pick up coffee and drop it off. And then a lot of phone calls and meetings and shipping out the coffee. Like the post office and so UPS everyday. Patti Dobrowolski 29:27 Yeah, there you go. Like that's it. That's the internet shell and then you're exhausted at the end of day once a PO closed and UPS and FedEx and you can rely on at all or get back on your email. Natalie Webb 29:40 Well, that's yeah, um, I mean, there's some days that you know, after I go to the post office, and I like sit back in my car, and I like to sit I'm like, so tired, but I'm like, Okay, I got everything in you know, like, job. Patti Dobrowolski 29:53 Yeah, did it. That's it. Well, you know, you gotta hit that success button. You have to hit that and celebrate your success by having a cup of coffee or doing whatever it is that you do to relax and reflect. And you know this from your life as a lawyer, you have to continually improve upon the way you're doing things so that you don't end up doing, you know, it's a weird thing. But when we're first starting something we don't know the simplest way to get from A to Z. But there really is one. Like, you know, I grew up in LA, too. And so my father, he worked in downtown LA, and we lived in Altadena. Before Altadena was a cool place to live. And so my father would do that commute every day. And it was horrible then. But he would say, the thing is, you have to find, always learn the shortest route between point A and point C. And so he taught me all about the back roads. So if the freeways bogged down, then you're going to go over here, and you're going to get on this road, and then you go down, and then you go back behind the Hollywood Hills. And then you go, you know what I mean? Like that. And I think that part of what you learn as an entrepreneur, is that you get better and better and better. Do you feel like that's what's been happening? Natalie Webb 31:03 Absolutely. Well, I felt like I've gone through this, like, crazy rush of kind of running around without my head on. And now it's so much focused on being as efficient as possible, and like, learning how to be like, okay, like, I can cut this, and I could focus on this and hopefully hiring someone to do operation soon, which is also like a massive goal for me, because that will free up a lot of my time. So. Patti Dobrowolski 31:26 Yes, but you got this support from UC Irvine. That is incredible. I mean, that is such a big deal. And that's a huge lift, of course, then you have to train everybody and all that stuff. But that's part of the internship process. That's why they're interns, and then you eventually hired them, if you can get them right. If they love you enough, and what you're doing in the world, they're so connected to it. And when you started, did you do the traditional things like coming up with what your mission statement was, and your purpose and all of those things and your goals? Your big, big, hairy, audacious goals? Natalie Webb 32:01 Absolutely. I mean, I feel like because I've been working on it for urban thinking about it for years, it kind of kept being fine tuned, it wasn't something I just like, wrote down right away, it was something that really, I had thought about so much. And I'm so lucky to have an amazing board of directors as well, who are just these incredible women who like, are all from you know, somewhere lawyers. And our graphic is, like interpreters really cool work that they do, and all very committed to social justice, which is great. And so they're always there, if I need a sounding board, or if I need ideas, or if I need help with anything, like they're very supportive. So that has made a huge difference as well. Patti Dobrowolski 32:39 Yeah, all that support, I think that level of support really buoys you when you need it. And, you know, this is what I say to my partner, Julie, I'm like, Okay, I'm just gonna ask you this question once, and I'm only gonna ask it once today, but is it all gonna be okay? And then she knows, okay, we're gonna turn on the switching, it's gonna be great. This is going to be the best year ever, you know, Jill, she's not quite as animated as that. But you know, I think you need your pep squad to get in there and kind of help you sort things through and figure out what the next step is. And I have some great resources for you that I haven't connected you to, but I'm going to for sure now. So when you think of the vision for you, what's your vision for Cafecita, you know, best case scenario, let's do the future. You let's do a future cast and tell me what do you really need? Natalie Webb 33:28 Well, so for cafecita, I really would like whether it's this year or later to have the physical location and have the cafe and be able to start doing our own programmes. Right. So like job training and community development, like, as well as fun community like musical creative events, which is really cool. I definitely want to continue doing growing the creative side of the business, which is another aspect of when you're like, oh, but you know, when people are thinking like, what's that thing that they want to start? And I was like, I also really wanted to be creative, because as a lawyer, besides me Be Creative arguments. I felt like I wasn't. Patti Dobrowolski 34:00 You never got to tap into that part of yourself. Alright, so that's good. So that's part of it. Yeah. Is there anything else that you see in that like 100,000 women farmers getting, you know, like. Natalie Webb 34:12 Right, so definitely having at least like the one physical location and then continuing to grow the E-commerce and working with these platforms, which is great, because I definitely don't want to lose that even despite having the physical locations. That's the ideal for Cafecita. And then for me, I cannot wait to be the person that actually is going into all the farms and meeting with all the women and being able to take on that role, rather than like the day to day. Patti Dobrowolski 34:38 Yeah. So when you have that operation, so we got that operations persons in place and you're travelling around and you're meeting people, which is what your favourite love is right? Travel. That was your number one. So we go back full circle to that. Well, that's fantastic. Now tell me thank you so much for going through this, but what would you say to somebody who is in a career and they want to pivot to do their own thing, what tips would you give them about it? Natalie Webb 35:04 I mean, I do think thinking it out, right, I think there's like a fine balance of overthinking. And then people never take that first step, and they never actually do it. So you don't definitely don't want to get like stuck in that. But you also don't want to jump into something because it is 24 hours a day work. You know, like, when you're, at least, as far as like, when you're just starting, you have to be passionate about the work, you have to really believe in what you're doing. So you know, make sure that that is something that you really love, and then having that support, like I don't have a co-founder, which I think would be very, very helpful. And I see these other companies that have that setup, and I completely understand where they're coming from. So at least if you don't have that, like me, just having a good support system as well, people that you really trust their opinions and can always kind of talked to them and get that advice. So. Patti Dobrowolski 35:57 I love that I think those three tips are like the main tips about anything you're doing, honestly, and especially that level of support you got to use, and not abuse, but use that level of support, use your support team, and thank them often. Because those are the people that really have your back. And they'll help you, you know, the raise the water level on your boat, which sometimes you really need that. And I know from talking to you know, I interviewed earlier podcast, Dan's bagels, right. And he started his bagel company, like only, I don't know, four months ago, five months ago, they're sold out every single day. They have a brick and mortar in Texas. And I mean, I went there because the bagels were fantastic. But what he said was this thing that you're talking about, you know, know what you're getting into, so that you're not walking in blindly. And that know that it's you this work in the material, it's you that's fulfilling the orders, which is what I hear you doing, you know, talking about driving to the coffee and dropping it off, and then you know, all that stuff. And that's what you do at the beginning, until you have someone who can help you with the other pieces of it. You're so incredible. And I love that you're doing this because I think that no matter where you are in the world, as a woman, you deserve the right to be paid at an equal level as your male counterpart, or whoever is your counterpart, right. So I am so grateful to you for doing that boosting up the experience and the economy for women. So thank you for that. Natalie Webb 37:30 Oh, thank you. That's very nice. Patti Dobrowolski 37:32 And thank you so much for being here with us. Oh my gosh. And so in the shownotes, I'll put how you can order coffee from Cafecita, because you really want to, and you want to support this, and everything that you're doing and how they can follow you on Instagram, because I'm sure you're on Instagram and we can go with you in that trip. Yes. So you're gonna be posting Yeah, so we want to see that engage with you. And so all of that will be in the show notes. I just thank you so much for being here. Natalie. It was so great to meet you. Natalie Webb 38:03 Yes, It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Patti Dobrowolski 38:05 All right. So everybody, you know the drill. If you'd like this podcast, please forward it to your friends. We want everybody to know about Natalie Webb and Cafecita and order that coffee so we can raise the boat for women all around the world. Thank you, everybody. Until next time, Up Your Creative Genius. I mean it. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Marcy Willard is a CEO with a Lean and Agile mindset. A huge source of pride is her team who has a culture of empathy, cross-functional teamwork, and an environment that says loud and clear “we've got your back.” They commit to not only their customer's mental health but also their own. Marcy and her team work hard while also respecting the importance of health, rest and family time. In doing so they bring a fresh and enthusiastic energy to the families they serve. Furthermore, her background as a school psychologist and licensed Psychologist with a PhD in Child, Family, and School Psychology. Believing in the power of offering accessible and reliable mental health expertise to parents and professionals, Dr. Willard's team has a mission to reach a million families with concerns about a child's mental health. Rather than the random walk from professional to professional with no clear guidance or direction our tools lead parents and professionals directly to the providers needed to get help right away for their kids. By telling parents 'what's the matter' kids can get off of the waitlist and get on with brighter futures. Timestamp 1:27 How Marcy Willard became who she is today 10:29 Teach your kid a skill; not to avoid consequences 11:14 Marcy shares CADE - Children mental health assessment tool 12:44 Marcy shares her process of starting as an entrepreneur 15:21 Listen to your kids and let them know it's alright 18:09 How did Marcy face her challenges? 21:27 Make a plan for the future you 26:31 Marcy's vision in the near future 33:00 Marcy shares tips about pivoting businesses or family dynamic Social Media Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/marcy-willard-ph-d-ncsp-35a97692/ Website https://clearchildpsychology.com/ CADE https://clearchildpsychology.com/cade/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski, as you know, and here we are. Today, my guest is Marcy Willard. Dr. Marcy Willard, let's get it right. She's a licenced psychologist. She's a tech entrepreneur. She's a nationally certified school psychologist and author of assessment of autism spectrum disorder. And that's a clinical book. So get that right today, I would download it and get it. But you are the founder of clear child psychology, which I think you're committed to making child psychology accessible to everyone. And I love that about you. And you are so amazing the things that you're doing. I am so happy to have you. Thank you for being here. Marcy Willard 01:22 Wonderful. Thank you for having me, Patti. I am. So looking forward to this. Patti Dobrowolski 01:27 I know, you know, we just met. So for those listeners, we just met randomly through a mutual friend. And we were like, Oh, my God, like this was the best conversation. And immediately I said, you have to be on the podcast. Because the things that you're doing Marcy are just so they're really game changing for parents of kids who have neurodiversity. And if you're a parent listening out there, or you know, someone who has a child with neurodiversity really want to tune in to this, because you're going to get an understanding for the things in the complexity of that. And so you understand. And Marcy, I hope you'll talk about this at some point. This is normal, you know, we think that kids are supposed to be treated in a certain way, and that you treat the special kids in a certain way. But everybody's special now. So people have to realise that change. So tell us tell us, Marcy, a little bit about you. So people can get to know you a little bit. Tell them about yourself. How'd you get here? Marcy Willard 02:29 Cool, right? Well, wonderful, Patti. I'm so excited to do this. So in terms of how I arrived here, and a little bit about me, I was a software salesperson, well over two decades ago, that's scary to say putty and had a really good experience. But I had this heart paying to do something to change the world. You can call it a blessing, you can call it a curse, right? But I wanted to make things better. And I was a psychologist working with this person, Dr. Anna Kroncke, who has now become my co founder. And we decided that something had to change and Child Mental Health. And I'll tell you why. Okay, we were on this mission to help these kids. And we were doing assessments. So we primarily did diagnostic assessment for children. Right. So paediatric diagnostic assessment, and we would have these parents come in, and we would tell them, hey, here's what's going on. You've got a great kid. Here's some of their amazing talents. And here are some of their challenges. And here's what you need to do. And here's some recommendations to get you moving forward. And they would look at us every time inevitably and say, Wow, thank you. This is amazing. This is life changing, that we can finally have the path forward. It's like a golden key that unlocks the door to my child's future and potential. And then they would look at us and say, I got one question for you, though. Where were you five years ago? Patti Dobrowolski 04:02 Oh, yeah. Right. Oh, my God. Can't you feel that pain of all those parents? Yeah. Marcy Willard 04:08 So it was just brutal to hear. And sometimes we'd be right down the street Patti. And you'd think, Gosh, this is a mess, right? So these parents that have waited for on average two years to get into get help for their child. And then the help is readily available, but it's just not accessible to people, right? The psychologist know what to do. There's a pretty clear formula for how to help these things. But nobody could find the psychologist. And now it's gotten even more dire. There are even fewer psychologists than there were then. And as you know, there's a mental health crisis on our hands. So you have about 500,000 mental health providers, many of which do not do diagnosis. And then you have 20 plus million families looking for those people. Patti Dobrowolski 04:55 Wow. Yeah, that is incredible. Right? Ah, wow, that said, wow, that's just like over the top. You know, I mean, I worked in mental health. So I understand really, I remember that change, you know, when we started to do HMO and how everything shifted, then I was like, oh, no, this is going to mean, healthcare isn't accessible support for people who have mental health issues isn't going to be accessible anymore? Because nobody's going to pay for it. Marcy Willard 05:25 Yeah. So what is really alarming and pretty unbelievable, is even when families do have the means right to get good help for their child, which is a blessing in itself. They still can't find people to help them. Right? So. Patti Dobrowolski 05:40 If so it doesn't matter. If you have money, or you don't, you can't find help, you can't find help. Wow. So then you and your partner, you stepped in to kind of fill that gap in you? Marcy Willard 05:52 Yeah. So what we did was we decided that we could make this assessment process more of a formula, right? So let's look across all the areas that could be impacted in a child's mental health behaviour or development. Let's put it in a model that makes sense. And let's create an image for each specific symptom, which is what those pictures are behind me. Patti Dobrowolski 06:15 Oh, that's fantastic. I was looking at those like, what are they? I was hoping you're going to talk about, okay, good. Marcy Willard 06:20 So you see the girl with a shell there. That's about auditory processing. So listening and understanding what's coming in through your ears and making sense of it. Right. So right, we made an image like that for every single symptom. And then we wrote an article for every single one. And we put them in that textbook that I had published with Dr. Anna Kroncke and Dr. Helena Huckabee, we've produced this textbook. And what happened there was we were able to say, here's the stuff that needs to be looked at for any kid. Right? Yeah. And then once the kid responds in a certain way, then you're going to dive deeper into certain areas. So it's a dynamic process. Patti Dobrowolski 06:56 Meaning that it's not really like you're going to tell them what to do is that you expect the parent to be engaged or teacher to be engaged in some way with the experience to see what does work. Right. Marcy Willard 07:09 Right. Right. Patti Dobrowolski 07:10 So because I think parents, you know, people, they love to have like a one thing fits all. And that's just not what we're dealing with. Marcy Willard 07:17 Yeah, the magic pill or that. It does not exist. I hate to break it to people. But yeah, yeah, it's a journey. And what we discovered in this process was that families really need ready access to tools that they can use right now. Patti Dobrowolski 07:33 Yeah. Marcy Willard 07:33 And that a lot of the tools that we were all taught as kids or generationally were passed down, really don't work, especially with neurodiverse kids. Patti Dobrowolski 07:43 Oh, give me an example of something like that, that you're talking about. That doesn't work that was passed down? Marcy Willard 07:48 Well, you're ready for one that I'm going to get in trouble for saying. Patti Dobrowolski 07:51 Yeah, of course, because this is Up Your Creative Genius. We're all about getting in trouble. Marcy Willard 07:56 Yes. Right. Right. So consequences. So that's a big one, right? So even, you know, really, very savvy parents are applying consequences to their child based on their behaviour. And it sounds good. It sounds like an idea. Right? So if they do these behaviours, Patti Dobrowolski 08:14 Because then it would be like Skinner box, right? That if you go down and press the lever, then I'm going to give you a pellet, like, AKA your phone back. Marcy Willard 08:23 Right? So what happens with that is, on the one hand, withholding reinforcement is a good thing. So let's say I don't work, I don't get paid. That's rare. Right? Right. If I'm a parent, and I'm essentially paying my kids through whatever means we give away things. Yes. And I withhold that because I'm expecting a certain behaviour to happen. I make it contingent. That works. Because you go, Oh, what do I have to do to get what I want? Oh, I have to do that. Okay. Okay. On the other side, it doesn't work. And this is what we've all been taught. And then when you go to try it, you'll realise that it almost never works. And it's this idea of you did this wrong thing. So I'm going to apply this consequence which kids think all consequences are negative, because parents are always saying, I'm going to give you a consequence. Right? And, and consequences are like, go to your room, get a timeout, get such and such taken away. I'm gonna take all these different privileges, things like that. So what ends up happening is, the kid feels the sense that you're trying to control them, right? Like a puppet. Yes. So they resist that. And then what they do, and this is a great example, another thing I can get in trouble for. So you're driving down the road, and you see a police officer, you know, on the side of the road. So what do you do? Instantly slow down, right? You take your foot off the gas, you slow down, and then the police officer drives away. So what do I do now? Speed it back up, right up. Right? Patti Dobrowolski 09:49 So that's what your kid does, then. Yeah, so um, I get a time out and then I'm gonna go right back to what I did before. Marcy Willard 09:56 So what they do is right, they gotta go. They have a lot of creative ways. To get out of that punishment, yeah, in the moment, the parent feels like they've won that because the child does comply. Right? But what ends up happening is it didn't teach me anything, right. I didn't learn anything. I just learned how to avoid your punishment. Patti Dobrowolski 10:13 Yeah, yeah, that's right, which is not good. Because then you don't ever understand your behaviour, you don't understand what's going to make the world work better for you. So you end up living a life filled with avoiding consequences, which Yeah, no, that's not good. Marcy Willard 10:29 And then what they've learned, and Dan Siegel is a big professor of this and both handle arson, and I talk about Dan Siegel's work all the time. We love it. And he talks about the idea of discipline, the root word of discipline is to teach, right? What am I trying to teach this child to do? Yeah. And so when you're teaching a skill, you would never just have I rip out the rug from under you, and then see if you're right, that's right. Right, you would go, let's partner on this. Let's mentor on this. Let's talk about creative ways we can address this. Yeah, it's okay to withhold your behaviours, right to say, I'm not going to pay you for that. We're not going to give you something for that. But to say, I'm going to put all these obstacles in your path is really just it's a game that we're playing with ourselves. Patti Dobrowolski 11:14 Yeah, yeah, no doubt, no doubt. So Marcy, you were in the schools, you saw these issues, and you were working with kids. And you saw these things happen. So you created this assessment that people could use, but talk about how you married your technology? Because this is really the thing that I was so impressed by and interested in, you know, was you created something from that, that made it easier for people to access it anywhere? Marcy Willard 11:44 Yeah, so this is from Clear Child Psychology, we created an app called CADE, CADE. And CADE is a method for families to access the kinds of strategies and recommendations they need to help their child. Yeah, and it's immediate. And that was really, really important. Because when parents are under stress, they don't have time to go make an appointment and sit down and have these long discussions with you, even if they can get in. So what we developed was an assessment that parents can do. It's dynamic, like we talked about, like we did in our clinical assessments. So yes, answer a certain set of questions, get recommendations right away for that. And then they can keep going if they have more questions that they want answers to, right. So we provide immediate recommendations in the moment through the app. Patti Dobrowolski 12:35 Yes. Marcy Willard 12:36 And then on top of that, they can upgrade to get live coaching from us, okay, a psychologist or other therapists to guide them on their journey. Patti Dobrowolski 12:44 Oh, that's so fantastic. I know that parents need that. Right now. They're just at a loss about what to do. So this to me is so incredible that you created this. Now, tell me you created then a whole business around this. So you did first the childcare psychology, the Clear Child Psychology, right. But so now the app is happening. And so where are you in the process of that? And now you're really an entrepreneur in the entrepreneur space. Right? So how did you adjust and learn what you needed to do? What did you do in your mindset in order to move and shift into this area where you're just desperate? And did that desperation lead to something tell me about the entrepreneur part of it? Because it's not easy to have a business that's around that? Marcy Willard 13:36 Right, right. Yeah, they say necessity is the mother of invention, right? Yeah, definitely. No doubt. So I knew from the beginning that I wanted our tools to be technology based. Patti Dobrowolski 13:46 Yes. Marcy Willard 13:47 And I also knew that I would never take the human element out of it. Patti Dobrowolski 13:51 Right. Marcy Willard 13:52 Right. So it's been an iterative adjusting process to determine what really is the best way to provide maximum access to the most people. Patti Dobrowolski 14:03 Because you're talking about a diverse audience that's listening with diverse needs. Like every kid is unique, right? Marcy Willard 14:10 And millions, millions of people, right? Patti Dobrowolski 14:12 So it's not did you say 200 million, right? Marcy Willard 14:16 Yeah, how many? 20 million? Patti Dobrowolski 14:18 20 million? Marcy Willard 14:19 Yeah. 20 million. Yeah. So at least 20 million families that are actively seeking help, yet, most of them won't get it. Most kids never get mental health support. So the idea that this is happening, right, kept me up at night and made us go, how can we get this into people's hands faster and more effectively, right. So yeah, everyone. So if it's just me in my office and Anna in her office, right, we can only help so many people. Patti Dobrowolski 14:48 No, you can only help however many patients you can see every week Right? Even that's not the most effective way because you want the parent to be the one who actually is helping the child and then the child helping themselves. You know. Marcy Willard 15:00 That your body is that agency, right? The agency for the parents because your child's best advocate, right? You care more than anybody? Yeah. And so you as the parent, having those tools makes all the difference in the world. So it's one thing for you to come in, get an assessment with a psychologist and you get your big fat report, and you're on your way. Patti Dobrowolski 15:21 Yeah. Marcy Willard 15:21 Right. You don't have that sense of agency yet, right? You need the tools in your own toolbox, so that the next time your child's freaking out at Target, you can say, Okay, I'm gonna help you, right, I know how to help you. Tools. And I'll just give you an example for that. So tantrums are a big when we talk about in our app, and on our website, tantrums, one of the big things that we teach, is to shut your mouth. Yeah, my child is having a tantrum, be quiet. And we all want to just dance around and talk to them and negotiate with them and tell them you can't do that. And that's not right. And let me tell you what you need to do. Let me give you some consequences, right? And the kid just spins up more and more and more. And now you're in the tantrum with them, right? Patti Dobrowolski 16:05 Yeah, exactly. So it's your chance from now. Marcy Willard 16:08 Right? All right. So we teach them to go sit by your child, be present, model your own calm demeanour, show that everything's okay. By the way, you present yourself and sit with them and breathe. And listen. And I'll tell you even working in the schools, nine times out of 10, that kiddo will open up and tell you what it really is. And even if you don't totally agree, you can just show that you get it right. Like, I hear you. You really wanted that. Yeah. And they'll look at you like, oh, you know, Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. So yeah, I'm still mad. Yeah, I'm not nearly as mad because you get it. Right. Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 16:51 And you're listening to me? Yeah, you're listening to what it's really about. Marcy Willard 16:55 And so then you've taught them something, right? Versus like, I'm just gonna go toe to toe with you. And we're gonna escalate until one of us wins this. Instead of that you go, I'm going to teach you how to calm down when you're upset. And you're going to use this the rest of your life. Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 17:10 Yeah. Oh, I just love this. This is such a nice way to start the day, in my opinion, you know, with this conversation, because, you know, you watch the parents on the plane, and you watch the parents who are in the grocery store, just freaking out, you think to them? Okay, you know, we're watching, but we're okay with it. You know, I think part of it too, we get so judgy about everybody, Marcy Willard 17:37 Right? Really important for all those parents listening, that if you're in that situation, and you see a parent with a child, that's freaking out, and the parent is doing the best they can, you know, give them a wink or a thumbs up or say, hey, you know, you got this, or, Hey, it's worse sometimes. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Parents are trying as hard as they can. And you know, if your kid is freaking out, there's not much you can do. Right? And it's okay. And it's an illusion to believe that we're in control of our child's behaviour. Right? Patti Dobrowolski 18:09 Okay. So, okay, so I love that that's really tangible for parents to take away now. Okay, so in this process of doing this, and transitioning, you must have hit your own series of roadblocks. So tell me, what did you do when things became challenging for you? What do you do? Marcy Willard 18:30 Yeah, that is a really good point. Patti Dobrowolski 18:32 Because your thing is your baby in a way, and sometimes it does have a tantrum. And so you know, for entrepreneurs that are listening your business is that so? What did you do? How do you help yourself? Marcy Willard 18:45 Yeah, there are a fair amount of tantrums in engineering and in startups, I would say That definitely happens. Yeah, yeah. So the biggest thing that I've learned is a which is going to be right in line with your work is keep your eyes on the prize. Right? So having goals and aspirations is not only important for our kids, but it's important for us, right? So when you know where you're going, a lot of times you can endure those rocky patches, number one, and then number two, the importance of self care. So I really provide the opportunity for that with my team. And I say you need a break, take it rest, you'll come back better, right? You'll be in a better place when you return. So self care. So I take a lot of walks, I have my morning meditation, I have my morning, check in with like, this is my plan for the day. And here's what I'm hoping and intending to do today. And then I check in with myself at the end of the day, and I check off my wins. Hey, yeah, you know, and I caught myself on the back. Hey, nice job, Marcy. Patti Dobrowolski 19:45 There we go. You know, really, you're hitting the success button. So I love that. I mean, normally I ask people, what's your day like? And there you have it, you gave it to us. But I love that what you said was, and I think for those of you that have teams that you're working with, even if it's As a small team, you just have a VA or you're doing courses online, or you've got whatever, what you're talking about is doing a daily check in with them. So that everybody's on the same page. And you know what you're working on? Were you a manager of people before you started your own business or and how did you grow into that? Marcy Willard 20:18 So I was in the business world before, I was not an entrepreneur before. So I didn't have the entrepreneurial background, but I certainly had a lot of business background. And I think the biggest thing that I learned and continuing to learn, as we all are. Patti Dobrowolski 20:36 Did you see her? Oh, if you're not watching, then she kind of looked off to the side, it was like a little in joke with herself about, Okay, we're ready. There you go. Marcy Willard 20:46 This is so it's to be myself, right? Be authentic. And I knew that if I needed those breaks, and those check ins and those, hey, that was rough. Let's all acknowledge that. If I needed those things, my team likely did too. Right? And what did up happening was, we're all mobilised toward this important mission to provide mental health and behavioural health access for children to everyone. Right? Right, every parent, because we were all mobilised towards the same mission, and we have permission to rest, you have the most motivated, energetic team you'll ever see. Patti Dobrowolski 21:27 Yeah, because the goal is really clear. And the need is really clear. I think this is, you know, part of it, when people are building their business or coming up with something they want to do in the world, you have to realise you're filling a need with what it is, it's not just that you want to go do something, you have to do something that fulfils a service for the world in some way. Right? When you marry your passion with service, then you accelerate your ability to expand, and you certainly have so tell people what happened. You know, Marcy did a mapping process. But actually, Marcy made me stop doing what I've done in the past and start doing something new, which is really amazing. For example, I used to always have people draw the current reality, and the desired future reality on the same map. But this year, I'm not doing it that way anymore, because I learned something from you. And so tell them what you did with your map and what happened? Marcy Willard 22:31 Yeah, so I do think that Up Your Creative Genius is genius. And I had such a good experience with it that I am delighted to be on your podcast. So what I did, Patti was I drew two pages, one with my current state and one with my future state. Patti Dobrowolski 22:51 Yeah. Marcy Willard 22:52 And I drew myself in the picture, which I learned was a really important aspect of this. Right, right. Putting yourself in the mindset of both places, right, my current reality and my future reality. And I drew them in black and white, and then I would put it away, right, I reflected on it. I got excited. I think I shouldn't say that first, before I put it away. I was really excited about it. So I went about this as a creative, enjoyable process. I'm not an artist, anybody listening to this, it's going to crack up. Patti Dobrowolski 23:27 That's right. And it doesn't matter. It's better if you draw stick figures, in fact, so okay, I love that. That's what the research shows you remember it better? Marcy Willard 23:34 Okay, great. I started drawing. And I just thought, well, wouldn't that be neat? And it led to Oh, and another thing I want to try. And another thing I want to do, so I start drawing that. And then on the current state, I say like, Okay, here's where I am right now. And what ended up happening was, after I put it away, things started to happen. And I would go back and colour in the picture. And then I would go, wow, like this is literally coming to life. Right? So the image that I had for my future self and my future vision was coming true and is coming true. And what I realised was a huge key that unlocked that was this getting in the creative process? It's one thing to set goals, and I am definitely for that. But goals are different than setting a vision, right? So you have goals, and those are important. You set your timeline, you say this is the thing I want to do by x date. But more than that, is that emotional charge that you get right from saying, wouldn't that be neat? Right? Patti Dobrowolski 24:35 Wouldn't that be incredible? Like that's what I say, you know, do the courageous, outrageous, so that you really put on your picture these outrageous things that you think wow, I mean, like that would be so cool if that happened. And I tell them what's one cool thing that happened that you had on your map that you didn't expect to I need to tell you which one this was about the trophy? Marcy Willard 24:59 Oh, the trophy Let me tell you about the trophy. So this is somewhat hilarious because I wanted to represent the idea had this big conference coming up, that I was going to be presenting it. And in the conference, the prize winner is the startup of the year. Right. So I wanted to be that. And I wanted the conference to go really well. So in order to have a picture of it, I drew a picture of a trophy, right? Yes, one trophy, I knew what it meant. I knew that if I get that, that means that I won the startup of the year, right. So I was really excited about that. So I drew this. And then time goes by we do the contest. I did not win for my company for startup of the year. But we did win for this People's Choice Award, which was another really cool opportunity, or People's Choice in the category that we're in. So in the Health Tech category. So when we won that, of course, excited and we're all celebrating, and time goes by right Patti. So I'm excited. That's all good. We celebrate, we move on. So months go by, and I get this package in the mail. And it said something about trophy on the outside. And I literally left it sitting in the kitchen, because I thought it was somebody else's trophy. Right. And my husband like I don't know. So I go and I open it up. And it's a trophy. Actually, I haven't here here, I'll grab it right here. Patti Dobrowolski 26:19 Yeah. So if you're watching, she's going to grab her trophy for Entrepreneur of the Year. And it's got a microphone. It's so amazing. Marcy Willard 26:27 Yeah, it is so great. That is so cool. So my trophy. Patti Dobrowolski 26:31 Yeah, love it. So, you know, this is I think what you're talking about is so essential, because we get caught in the day to day minutia of the things that we want to achieve. And so we do set these goals of things we want to accomplish in the day, in the week, in the month in the year. These are what we're talking about in terms of goals. And I think having action plans and getting things done. And the essential part that Marcy talked about is acknowledging at the end of the day, what you have done that day, so that you hit that success button. So your brain goes, Yeah, we're going to do more of that tomorrow, right. And that's really what you're trying to do. That's the rat in the skinner box with yourself is that you are pressing the success button which sends dopamine and then you sleep well and then you feel good. And then you wake up the next day, energised to get back to work on these actions, steps that move you further and further towards that bigger vision. But they are gold getting what I call gold getting. But the thing that you talked about was this, which was when you are dreaming the vision part. It's essential for it to be creative. And the way that you described it was you said it was then I thought of this when that'd be cool. And then within this, what if that happened, and then that like that. And so it was an organic process, it builds on itself. And if you allow it to be creative, organic and expansive, you step into the future. You never knew about you never imagined. Right that that to me is who you are. To me. You are that expansive self who, you know, was able to get enormous funding. Did people just threw money at you to get that app? Because the need, let me just say the need is so high. We're talking about 20 million parents with kids that have issues, right? Yes, yes. Yeah. So that's just incredible. Now, when you think about your vision, now, what's your bigger vision than when you imagine it? Marcy Willard 28:40 Yeah. So for myself, you mean? Patti Dobrowolski 28:43 Yes. And whatever you want to share? Marcy Willard 28:45 Yeah. So my bigger vision for the business is to make mental and behavioural health access available to everyone, right? So when we set out on this vision in the first place, we said, we're going to have 1 million kids. And we wrote 1 million kids over everything. We have 1 million kids plastered all over the place. And we still are going to do that. And it grew, right. So the more people that I realised are really struggling like this, a million is not enough. So we really need to go. Patti Dobrowolski 29:16 20 Millions 20 Millions what we're going for now. Marcy Willard 29:19 Yeah, yeah, we're going for 20 million. Right. So having that as our Northstar, our guiding light is huge, right? And then there's also this empathy and this accessibility piece, that it's not just that I want to help these families, because of course I do. I also want to make it a collaborative and accessible process where people are on the same page, and we're in a peer to peer collaboration, right on how to get their kid moving forward in the family moving forward. A lot of times when I say our family moving forward, a lot of times your child might not change that much. Patti Dobrowolski 29:55 Yeah. Marcy Willard 29:56 But you changed, right, right. Because now you get it. You can say You know, he doesn't have that skill yet. I'm gonna stop beating myself up and getting on his case about this thing that, you know, he just doesn't have that yet. Right? Yeah. So you're in a better place. And guess what all the tension in the house comes down, right? Yeah, no, when you go, Oh, I know what to do. It doesn't mean it's gonna be perfect, it doesn't mean it's gonna be easy. It's just means that I know what to do. And so my tensions lower, and I'm not putting the attention on my child, we say that it's, you know, very contagious when you're anxious, it goes to your child, right? So we know that we can help them with that way. That's a big thing for the business. And it's huge, right? Patti Dobrowolski 30:35 Yeah. Yeah, I love this. And I was thinking, you know, that's really the changing the homeostasis of everything, right? That we used to run, or I used to run these couples therapy experiences in Oakland when I was just getting certified right as a drama therapist, and finishing my degree, but I was with a clinical psychologist who had been doing couples therapy for years. So I got to create interactive experiences with her practice. But one of the things that she taught me was really about the face to face of the dynamic. And I practice the things that I learned there every single day, which is, when I want something to shift, I need to turn away from it, stop pushing for it to happen and turn away and allow the space for the change to occur. And that involves me changing me always, it's always about me, you changing yourself, and then it changes the dynamic. And then everything is different. But the main thing is, when you're holding firm and tight, it's the same with your business, you hold firm and tight to things that you want them a certain way, they get to look a certain way, the things on the right side of the picture in the desired future have to look a certain way. No, that's not how the world works, the world works by openness, the door opens in really, and once you let the door open, then you get inside. And I just think you're so incredible doing that. And I'm sure parents that are listening or with kids dealing with this, or if you know anybody in your neighbourhood you just got to go give them a thumbs up is what I have to say because you have no idea the level of stress that they've been dealing with. Because if you love your kids, you can imagine they love their kids just as much if not more, and they're doing everything they can to create a safe space for their child. And I like this, because there's so much downstream benefit for this, you know, we just see these pockets of kids that are just getting left behind and what you're left behind, then you don't have a choice, but you just go and do the wrong thing. And then you end up in a cycle of that, because at least you've gotten rewarded somewhere. Right? And so I think part of it is that if you can help early on to create a space for people to be who they are, right? And that's the authenticity to that you're talking about, even in your own experience of your life. When you think about, you know, a lot of our listeners really tune in because they want to learn something new of course, yeah. And also, but they are interested in pivoting. So what would you say, you know, are some things for people who need to shift and pivot in their business or their family dynamic? Or what tips would you give them? Marcy Willard 33:21 Yeah, so one of the biggest things that this is more for your own personal success in life, not necessarily for your parenting, I love that. One of the things that I would say is that I've learned and it's been so powerful for me, that the things that you're afraid to do, or the things that you must do. And the reason you're afraid is because that's the direction that your life needs to evolve. And so what I ended up doing that has been extremely transformative for me is, every morning before 9am, I list off what I call my power moves, which are the things that are moving me forward, that there's some reason why they just keep not happening, right? So they just don't make the list every day. Well, the reason that I make the list is I'm afraid to do that for whatever reason. Right? Patti Dobrowolski 34:11 Right. Like you think you don't know enough or you think it'll take too much time, or you're going to have to call somebody that you don't know. Right? Marcy Willard 34:19 Right. So we're all imposters, right? It's sometimes in our lives. Oh, if they only knew, right? And so you avoid those interactions. And so what I've learned to do is just kind of Benjamin Hardy talks about the Brian Tracy book, Eat That Frog, right? If you have to do two frogs eat the ugliest one first. If you have to eat frog, eat it first thing in the morning, right? So I do that. So I sit down, I write down what I want to accomplish. And the ones that are really the scary ones. I just make sure I do at least one first thing in the morning. And on a really good day. I do three, right. Patti Dobrowolski 34:54 Oh, that's so great, right? Marcy Willard 34:57 Yeah, 9am and I've had three wins, right? I can say, Yeah, I sent that email. I made that call. I wrote that thing. Right. I wrote a first draft you I wrote my crappy first draft of that thing that I don't want to write. Right. Yeah. And then what happens is those moves build momentum. Right? So along the investment line, one of the things that is hard as, of course, for everyone to go ask for money, right? That's what I'm doing. That's what you do when you're seeking investment. And so I would start that, right, I would say, you know, what, I'm gonna reach out to that person, they seem interested. And this might be a great opportunity for them. So let me reach out. So do that. And then what happens? They reach back, right? Then you have a great conversation, and you tell them what you're doing. And they say, you know, I know somebody else that would be interested in that. And I had mentioned to you before that, investors are very interested because they hear this. And people want to help, right? People are like, wow, like, I know, there's a mental health crisis. I know that parents are struggling, and they're like, gosh, what can I do? And every single investor I think I've ever talked to has someone in their life, who has a child with issues somebody, right? It could either themselves, or it could be their nephew, their grandson, they accept someone, right? Yeah, they hear this and they go, I want to do something. And what happens when I reach out and do that power move, like, Hi, good morning, Joe, I want to talk to you, they get this idea of, hey, I can be a part of this. And so that momentum begins to build as well. Patti Dobrowolski 35:15 Yeah. And people are always looking for ways to help. You know, the best way to get people engaged in your business is to ask for their help. Ask them to help you. Yeah, because people are longing to be helpful. They want to be needed. That's what's true. Marcy Willard 36:43 Yeah, yeah. And so you think in your mind about, let's go back to kind of traditional goal setting, if I set a goal, and if I work at that goal every day, odds are, I'm going to get closer and closer and maybe make it right. And this is even more powerful than that. Because not only am I setting a goal, but I have this long term vision for my life, right? And every day, I'm making bold power moves towards it, right? Patti Dobrowolski 37:09 Yes. And I would say this is how we leap over time. Really, this is how we close the time space continuum, is by doing something so challenging, it builds now on your confidence, and your courage, because you realise, hey, if I did that, once I did that yesterday, so this is gonna be no problem today, if I'm going to call somebody else, right. And so you get better and better at the things you're afraid of. And then you find these other things that you're afraid of, and you think, okay, but I had that success when I was afraid of that. Now, I'm going to move into that now. You've just retrained yourself, you know, the neuro programming. Now, the new record is playing that I'm capable of doing anything, which is what is true, and how you come into the world. And then you just forget it, because you get piled on with all kinds of beliefs, right? Marcy Willard 37:57 Lots of Yeah, I think that's so true. And so powerful. What you also find when you make those bold power moves, is the stuff you're afraid of, is not half as scary as you thought, right? Maybe not even a 10th as scary as you thought you had the conversation. And the person's like, yeah, I would love to hear more. And you're like, Okay, what was? Right? Couch worrying, wringing my hands when I could just ask, right, so I've learned that, that those things that I'm afraid of, are the things I need to run towards. Because what's happening is, the reason I'm scared of that is because that's exactly the thing, that's gonna make the most difference, and it's gonna require me to grow, right? It's gonna say, hey, it's gonna call on some skills that maybe need a little harvesting, right? Maybe that's not my best moment there. And so I've got to work harder at that one. So of course, I'm afraid to do it. I love doing it. And look, it works, right? Patti Dobrowolski 38:49 Yeah, it's fantastic. All right, I love that. That is the best tip. I'm gonna do that right away. As soon as we get off the call, there's something I'm afraid to do. And I'm going to do it right away, because I gotta change. You know how that is. And I know it's slightly after nine when we're recording this, but who cares. So I would just like to say this to you. I am so just awed by you all the things that you did. And as a therapist myself, I love the fact that I was a therapist back in the day, but I love the fact that you have chosen to do something that you took up the mantle to make a change in the world that really is helping to impact the lives of families everywhere. And I can't thank you enough for doing that Marcy, to having you here for this time. I can't wait to have you back. Because I know that you're going to have new information for us and and that future that you're stepping into is just only begun. I think it's only begun. And so just thank you so much for everything that you do. Marcy Willard 39:49 This is really wonderful to be here, Patti, and I'm really excited to get to share this message with your listeners. And I would tell them, Go do it. Do not afraid it will happen. Patti Dobrowolski 40:00 That's right. Do not afraid eat the frog. And in the show notes, you'll see how you can connect with Marcy and also you should go to her website Clear Child Psychology and find out what she's up to. There's a lot of information there that will be helpful to you and to others in your life. So go there. Thank you, Marcy, for being here for doing this with me today. Thanks. And I look forward to seeing you again. Here we go everybody, and you know what I say to you. Until next time, Up Your Creative Genius, right. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski, and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap

Leigh Anne Taylor Knight is a resourceful, future-focused leader who currently serves The DeBruce Foundation in Kansas City as Executive Director and Chief Operating Officer. The Foundation's mission is to expand pathways to economic growth and opportunity. It seeks to help people discover what they want to do and what they're good at doing, to open more career possibilities for the future of work. Dr. Taylor Knight is driven to lead the leveraging of resources across sectors for innovative learning, rigorous research, and community collaboration in order to improve economic development and the quality of life. A teacher at heart, Leigh Anne has also served as a K-12 assistant superintendent, advised learning institutions across the nation, and led a bi-state consortium providing powerful tools for data-driven educational research to inform practice and policy. Bringing together stakeholders to activate synergistic solutions is a favorite expertise. She values identifying talents and strengths in others, coaching them to improve their capabilities, and finding roles in which each can maximize one's potential to result in optimal team success. Advocating for and executing programs where the voices of young people resonate to make a difference are her true passion. “Make plans. Just be willing for those plans to actually change” “We think that people are not accessible. And the reality is, many, many people are much more accessible than you think they are. But you do have to take the initiative.” Timestamp 1:59 Leigh Anne Taylor journey in gaining interest in teaching 4:16 Her change from architecture to education 6:09 Challenges Leigh Anne Taylor face while following her heart 8:29 Her journey into DeBruce Foundation 13:11 Leigh Anne Taylor shares her experience in promoting changes to people 16:21 The importance of networking with diverse people 18:22 Leigh Anne Taylor's mindset of juggling with all her different roles 23:25 Sneak peek into her daily routine and shares tips about completing goals Social Media Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/latknight/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patty Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, welcome to up your creative genius, the podcast. Guess what? We're doing this live today. It's so incredible to be with you. I want to tell you first about her before she starts talking. But Hello. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 00:52 Hello, Patti. Patti Dobrowolski 00:54 Oh, my gosh. So this is Leanne Taylor Knight. She's the Executive Director and COO of the DeBruce Foundation in Kansas City. Now DeBruce Foundation is doing some amazing things. Oh, thanks, Patti. They are expanding economic pathways for people in this city and beyond, right in the whole state. And I want to just say that, before she started to do this, which is all about research and helping people discover their agilities and providing them with tools so they can get jobs in the city. Right. And elsewhere. She was the assistant superintendent of schools in K-12. I love that here. And you were an educator forever, weren't you and you advise and all kinds of national education forums and you sit on like a billion boards. I'm not going to list them here. But that's who you are. In a nutshell. I'm so glad that you're here. Thank you, Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 01:48 Oh, a teacher at heart. It is so fun to be here. And it's so fun to have all of you with us. So thank you so much, Patti, for coming to Kansas City and us being actually able to film here. Patti Dobrowolski 01:59 I know it's fantastic now. So um, I know you as a kind, a generous, an amazing Rockstar that is changing your community. I mean, that's what you're dedicated to. And you're fortunate enough to have a career in a path where you actually are that's enabled. And so that was good job in manifesting that. I would just say, because yeah, you're in the sweet spot of who you are. But it's not all of who you are. So tell the audience a little bit about Leigh Anne Taylor Knight. Tell us did you grew up here and anything you want to tell about your past? And bring us up to the present? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 02:38 Yeah, thanks. So I was born and raised in a small town in mid Missouri and Fayette and I grew up to parents, dad was a veterinarian, and mom was busy doing every volunteer job there was. And I think that's probably one of the first places I learned how to pivot was I had a mother who was whatever was the flavour of the day, my mom was in the middle of it, she was leaving it and she was doing it. And so I probably saw that along the way, I went to college and thought I was actually going to be designing buildings like the one in which we sit. So I have a degree in Environmental Design picked up a degree in education along the way. And I started teaching kids and they just caught my heart. And so to this day, I'm still a teacher at heart. So even the work that I do now at the foundation is all about improving the quality of life for others in their near and far environments and actually developing them so that they have that capability of doing that themselves. Right. And so I grew up on a farm, I grew up in a place where it was like, Hey, you got to figure out how to make this work in this situation. And so that was instrumental in my teaching and my education, leadership career. And I did do a little stent with universities, and did some research and those kinds of things, which helped bring me here to the diverse foundation. Patti Dobrowolski 03:53 And she was just want to say that she was like a major cheerleader here. So if you ever need a cheer squad, Leanne Taylor night is it right here? I'm just saying she's been mine below and I've been down, Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 04:05 But you're like the pep club leader like we were our two peas in a pod. We were made to go together. We didn't go to high school together, but we could have we should change. That's rightm, changed right now. Patti Dobrowolski 04:16 So you started off going into this architecture field, the design field? Yeah. How did you decide at that point, when you had that, and you had the education? What happened at that? And how did you reconcile that with yourself for what you'd invested already? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 04:34 Yeah. Well, I really kept thinking about like, well, you know, the job I really want to have is I want to be at this university and helping others get excited about what they are doing and then be a dean of students and a chancellor. And so I was kind of looking at that career ladder and realising, well, in order to do that, you actually have to be a teacher in the classroom too. So I was like, Okay, I'll go get my doctorate in Environmental Design. I truly was headed to Texas Tech. I was coming when out of Mizzou, and headed there to Texas Tech, and then there was this opportunity that came for me to go ahead and teach in Columbia Public Schools when I was getting there and getting the second degree in education. And I just took it up. And I started working with students who had been at our alternative school. And these were kids who had been basically nothing had worked for them. That's right. They were the kids who no middle school, no junior high, no high school, nothing had worked for them. And you know, probably many people thought that those are those kids, I just don't want to have to deal with those. And I looked at those kids. And I was like, these are amazing kids. They have phenomenal talents. It's just that nobody's ever tapped into them. And I was on a staff of like teachers, and a principal who are like, it's our job to meet them where they are. And so that has continued to just be a theme in my life is like, Okay, folks, it's not about finding the best blueberries and bringing them into your pie. It's like meeting that blueberry wherever it is, and, you know, putting the right ingredients in so that you can have the best pie, but it is literally about meeting every single person where they are. And I just have that in my heart. And I just have had so many opportunities to get to do that in my life. Patti Dobrowolski 06:09 Wow. I love that. Because I think often in the Uber car coming here, today, I was I was talking to the guy who was from Kenya. And he was asking me, I was talking about my father who had been a, you know, concrete guy, right, a civil engineer, because he was studying to be a civil engineer. And so we were talking about how do you get on a career track to become something? And then what do you do when there are expectations of you to be one thing or another? Did you have any of that in your family to deal with that? You know, they had an expectation of what you would do or who you'd become? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 06:48 Yeah, well, I probably did grew up in a family that always said, not, are you going to college? But where are you going to college. So I did grow up in one of those families. However, you know, the mould broke after me, the first child going through because the second child took a different trajectory, and went through the military, and the third child took seven years to get through college. So really, we all were like, well, we're not really doing what we're supposed to be, you know, so there might have been some of that. But definitely, I certainly felt along the way that there was an expectation, I've always believed this. I mean, this is at the heart of my faith, which is to those who much is given much as expected. And so I am grateful to God for the gifts and the people with who he has surrounded me with in my lifetime. And so the things though, that goes with that is never miss an opportunity. So if somebody said, Well, I don't know, would you like to try this? And that's what happened to me along the way is somebody said, Oh, we have this job in Kansas City, we would love to have you come and think about this job in Kansas City. Well, I'm not really thinking about going to Kansas City, I'm gonna move to North Carolina. Well, no, it's a great opportunity. And so I've had people along the way who have said, will never miss the opportunity to at least have the conversation. And that's how I have pivoted into different places is because I'm not afraid to go have the conversation. If somebody says this could be a unique opportunity for you. And I would really encourage those of you who are listening and watching to like, basically have your ears open. Patti Dobrowolski 08:24 That's right. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 08:25 Listen for those opportunities. Patti Dobrowolski 08:27 Yes, yeah. Really, honestly, it's the mystery. And the joy of life is that if you're like a detective out there, following the clues, but you have to be aware of the clues that you're looking for, right, you have to understand what it is that you're capable of which you did, right. You knew, Okay, I've got this educational piece together, I've got this other things. And I'm going to go and do something and change the world. You had a good role model for that, too. But one of the things I wondered is, how did you get to the DeBruce Foundation? Like how did you end up in that because I met you right after you started there. That's when we met. And I had no idea. I thought you'd been there for years. That's how you were in the room. So how did you pivot into that? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 09:13 Well, you know, this is one of those again, I was running a research consortium covering a by state area, and somebody said to me, they're like. Hey, have you seen that the DeBruce Foundation needs some researchers in Education and Economics. And I was like, Ah, I have a whole group of researchers in Education and Economics, but I was like, Who is the DeBruce foundations? Oh, like, who are they? Very, very small footprint couldn't really find anything but I found a phone number and I was like, Ring Ring ring. Hello. And I get you know, press number one. If you want to speak with this person, press number two. If you want to speak with this person, press number three. If you want to speak with Mr. Bruce. I was like, Oh, Mr. Bruce, his name is on the foundation. Three done, and the next thing I knew I was speaking with with him. And so that would be my, I always asked the question like, what's the worst thing that could happen? They don't answer the phone, they say they won't speak with you. They say they won't meet with you, you have an idea to present. They say they don't like the idea. What is the worst case scenario? And they go, Well, can I live through that? Absolutely. So you know, I look there, nobody answers the phone, or nobody picks it up. And so literally, that's how I came to find out about what they were doing. And then it really was key to think about, okay, what are they doing? Hey, there are some strengths and some talents and some experiences that I have that can be value add to that. And then really, it was about Mr. DeBruce and other seeing that, yeah, maybe you're a good fit. Yeah, just being in the right place at the right time. But definitely. Patti Dobrowolski 10:47 Well, wait, wait, let's just roll back, because you picked up the phone, and you made the call, and you press three. And that I think, you know, I think that we are often so afraid to really go out there on the limb and take that risk. But that's what makes the difference. That's the call that's going to the audition, or going and calling the editor or getting on the phone with somebody who you think is going to take over your social media and getting a one on one conversation with them. Anytime you want to change something, you got to put yourself out there. And you're like such a great role model for that. Because you put yourself out there all the time. I mean, you're well put together, no doubt, but you do like walk a fine line of getting people to be real and talk about real things. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 11:32 Yeah, and you also have to celebrate the failures. One of the things we say around here is we're going to make mistakes, but we need to learn from them. And so kind of if you take that motto with your life. And of course, what we have tried to do here at the Foundation is we also want to help you understand what it is that you do well and what you like to do. I mean, that's where we started working with you, Patti is around the agilities and your piece about drawing your future. And for us the intersection of love you know what you like to do? And what you do? Well, we can draw amazing futures together. And I think I would absolutely encourage any of you who have not yet you have to go draw your future with Patti, you know, you have to get online and try that and do that. And be willing to think about what are those steps that I'm going to take today to get to that future that I want to have, and then know that like that future vision out there, it's just going to continue to change. And as you change and grow, right? That's only if the vision stays the same. Actually, I could kind of worry about that. Because that means that maybe you're kind of standing still in the same place. And that's not. Patti Dobrowolski 12:42 Have you ever had that experience yourself felt like you were stuck, and that you were like, I got to get out of this whatever this is. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 12:49 Daily. I mean, you know, it is it's like healing. Sometimes you're just like, I'm running into a brick wall issue, you know, so there are those and you have to like, oh, wait, you know, do the infinity sign, make my left brain connect to my right brain and get myself into another point? You've taught me a lot? Patti Dobrowolski 13:11 Well, tell me though, do you get into sticky conversations with people in your city and county and community around change, their willingness to change or not change? I mean, really, we're in the centre, we're in the heart of the country here. So I'm curious, you have this mission to expand economic pathways for everybody. But I don't know that everybody's on board with that? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 13:36 Well, because change is scary, right? Patti, it's really scary. And it messes with power structures. Anytime you think about change, then you think about status quo, and you think about certain things changing and some people losing power and other people gaining power. And, you know, that's where in the space of how much can you think about being in a life of abundance, and not scarcity? And how can you kind of thought back that scarcity mindset and think about I mean, early on, in college, sometime, someone said to me, you don't have to step on someone else to get ahead. Yep. And there's enough out there for everyone. And I can remember being in college, hearing another female leader talk about that. And I thought, You know what, she is exactly right. I don't have to step on somebody else to get there. And there's enough out there for everyone. So my job is, is to just help get that word out. Patti Dobrowolski 14:31 That these days of that state of consciousness, because I don't think everybody sees it that way. I think people still are holding on to their little parcel and their things and their old ways of thinking. And I see like this huge divide. And what I love about what you're doing is that you're trying to bridge that gap. You're trying to bridge it in education, you're trying to bridge it in opportunity. You're trying to bridge it in really what I see as consciousness really the consciousness of a community like it has a consciousness Kansas City? Yeah. And so part of unwrapping that, I think, what's challenging about that for you what has been challenging? So, you laugh? Like, I'm gonna ask him or I'm gonna ask you a question about challenge. I have a challenging question. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 15:19 I will tell you, I mean, what is challenging is just, basically, there is gravity, I think, for people again, to stay in the space of comfort. So I have to always think about, like, what spins me out of that, what will take me out of that. And youth are very important in my life, anybody who knows me, I spent a lifetime thinking about how to help them even contribute back to what it's going to be. And so they are always good about helping you spin out of that gravity helping you think about how do you launch and think in new ways in different ways. But the same applies to other groups to most people recognise that if someone will just sit and listen to them, just like you're doing now, or just like people are listening now to us. There's never been a person who will not sit down and tell me their story, or sit down and tell me what their concern is, was something Yeah, yeah. If I will be disciplined enough to listen. Yeah. And so. Patti Dobrowolski 16:21 I'll and listen, without having an opinion about what they're saying or making judgement about it. I think this is the time that we live in, where we have to really suspend judgement. And I think, as we learn and grow more into understanding what trauma that we inflict, unbeknownst to ourselves in small and large ways that we understand what we've been through and how that impacts how we engage with other people. And how can we, I guess, you know, I came from a family like yours, where my mother was, like, on everything, she built a pathway for other people. So if we can continue to focus on that, that's incredible. And it's important, who do you surround yourself with in your community, and your life that are in that inner circle that can really be your own pep squad? Yeah, who do you have? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 17:15 So diversity of that network is extremely important? Yes. And so there are people from family, there are people from neighbourhoods, there are people from church, there are people here at work, there are people who have come from similar walks of life as I have, there are people who have come from very different walks of life as I have, than I have. And so I do tend to be a person who has a multitude of networks. It's not just one network. For me, it is a multitude of networks. And then I have heeded the advice over time with people saying to have a personal board of directors. And those are the people who you can go to who will be completely honest with you about what you're feeling and what you're thinking and what you're projecting and will really, you know, the existentialist you know, just hold up the mirror and say, just take a look right now, at what you just said to me, and then reflect that back. But I think the key for me has been to not just have a network, but to have a multitude of networks and for people to be from diverse backgrounds and diverse experiences. Patti Dobrowolski 18:22 because then it expands your capacity to understand I think, right, then you feel like, I think my experiences that I feel like then it's one story where it's everybody's individual story, but we're in the bigger picture of the story of life. Right, right. And so, you know, how do you manage all the stuff that you do? Like you're here, right at DeBruce, and you sit in on all these other meetings with these small startups here, too. So say a little bit about that. And were there any challenges in you starting to do that as a leader? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 18:58 Yes, this has been first of all, before being here. I've never worked in a foundation. I've never worked in philanthropy before. So that's been an interesting journey, because I had to learn about philanthropy is like, I've never been in that space. And then our philanthropy is actually funded by way of a host of companies that the generosity of such as that those profits, so that that's a profit driven kind of a world and so learning about different companies, the different industries have different sectors in which they are and just learning about how to have that mindset about things has been a very interesting journey for me, and I certainly it's been about asking questions, right? So it's like, I don't know. So I do a lot of things. I read a lot of things Read, read, read, read, ask a lot of questions. I mean, one day I got sent home with like five books about pricing so that I could you know, crash course in economics, I'm like, I don't know if we were entering a market we're gonna price something good. So you know, it was like it was lots of chocolate lots of colour. pencils, and lots of tabs and everything that I use that weekend to crash course on, you know, pricing, just because but for me, that's exciting. And the more I learn about something like that, the better I can, you know, help and mentor other people who are having to think about that share resources with them because I resource aware, and also do associative thinking and bring that back into, like, Oh, this is where this fits in might help with this board that I'm serving on this organisation, oh, this is where this fits in might help with our foundation, or oh, this is where it fits, it might help our church do something or my neighbourhood. Patti Dobrowolski 20:37 Yeah, I love that. I love that. And when you do that, when you bring it back to all those different things, when you sit back, like what do you see as the vision for you for your future? What's in that picture? Like, what do you want? You've already had this amazing legacy of things you've done, but what do you still want to do that you feel like if I just do that, that thing is going to really make a difference? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 21:03 Gosh, Patti. That's the most challenging question you asked me all day, she knows that I have ideation and my top five. And so I can come on line 54, we'll try. Patti Dobrowolski 21:15 To come up with one, maybe three would be okay. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 21:17 I would like to do all kinds of things. But you know, you mean that cooking show that we're all I was gonna say, you know that I do want to be a culinary artist. who, you know, watch for that to happen. Patti Dobrowolski 21:31 I know that's gonna happen. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 21:32 Somewhere in that channel, that is absolutely going to happen that is going to be on there. And absolutely, I think the other thing is, is even where I sit today, we as a foundation have a lot of ways to go. And so looking for the right strategic partners and the kinds of things that are going to happen, so that we can expand pathways to economic growth and opportunity. And then you know, the third thing is, is I'm always on the lookout because I am a person who like see what all the other opportunities are, you know, that are going to be out there. I think this current position feeds my soul in that way. Because we do have lots of different opportunities that we can do by way of the foundation by way of the business route. Patti Dobrowolski 22:11 Oh, and I love it. And you get to put your research mind to work every single day, like you're always looking at the numbers like what I love about her is that she wanted to have, like so many other they have what was the number that you wanted to take the agilities profiler? How many was it that you want to hit? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 22:27 Yeah, I wanted to get 10,000 plus one this year, and we actually are going to knock down the door at 40,000. So I'm so excited. We've had a great, great, great big booth. Patti Dobrowolski 22:38 Yeah, it's so great. I love it. So I think that part of it, right? So you're always like reaching, and you're always trying to explore, like, what is the new thing? What's the next thing to step into? And I think that is part of this mindset that you were talking about earlier, where you're watching for the signs for what's going to happen next, and how it all fits in the picture. Now you have a big job, like you're hard to get. I mean, I was so grateful that you would spend this time I was so happy to be here and do it in person. But what's your day look like? What does it look like your day from when you get up? Until you know when you go to sleep? I want to know what are your rituals? What do you do every day so that people who are really want to get some routine in place? Yeah, don't yours. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 23:25 Yeah, for me, it starts with prayer and reading my Bible, because that's super, super important to me. And it just a homing device and a connecting space for me to do that each day. And then exercise I always have a better day if I get some exercise in early and if I don't get it in early, I have to try to get it back in you know later in the evening. And then it's off I probably like a lot of people you know, you got to download figure out some emails that maybe you missed because people work 24/7 So you missed some things even if you went to bed the night before, and then it's in the office and then every day is different, like so some days we will have internal meetings you know, this is also living in this timeframe of some things are remote and some things are hybrid and some things are in person and so you know just trying to get back into the next normal that we have right now. So it can be meetings here in the city sometimes it's you know, meetings in other parts of the United States because we're working in places outside of Missouri and Kansas right now in Kansas City. So it can be out in those places. You know, on great days I like to get some again always trying to get some type of time outside so a lot of times that happens after my work day the dog and I do have dog so dog Max goes out I know you have dogs too. We love dogs. So out in the morning out again and that time is a lot of time self reflection time you Patti Yeah, yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 24:48 Do you do anything like set goals for what you want to accomplish that day or how you're going to be in that day? Is that part of your morning ritual or your evening ritual where you reflect on it? How does that work? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 24:59 Yeah, well, I do use a lovenger, I do literally have the tasks that I want to try to accomplish that day and the things that, you know, move to the next days. And I also am a person who I will like, think about ideas, like sometimes you just wake up or you're in the middle of a meeting, you get an idea about something else. I try to draw those Patti, because I think that they're more apt to come true, because Patty's taught me this. And they're more of just come true if I don't just write the word about it, but I do a little drawing about it. And so then, you know, at the end of the week, a lot of times I will syphon back through, Hey, what are the things that I did get done each day? What are the things across the weekend that I have to go back and fill in. And also, I just give myself permission, sometimes you just put a big X through it like, Okay, that didn't get done, it's not going to get done, it's going to go to the lower priority list, because other things become more of a priority. Patti Dobrowolski 25:50 Yeah. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 25:50 And so I do try to give myself permission to be okay, with like a part of the checklist not getting accomplished moving to a different day, or just getting completely taken off. And that helps keep me sane, maybe makes it easier for other people to work with me. Patti Dobrowolski 26:04 I was gonna say too, the thing that I know about you that you didn't mention is that you make sure to take time off, like you go away. I do you and that you really rest and recuperate with your family. Yes. Yeah. And that's important. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 26:19 Yes, that can look like hiking and trail biking, and. Patti Dobrowolski 26:23 Whatever your husband has his new task, that new thing he's into? Yes, yes. Kind of the idea of own kind of it. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 26:30 Yes, yes, Patti. And I have partners in life, who are obviously taking us on new and different adventures all the time. And part of that, too, is just like, just say, yes, just learn something new. Patti Dobrowolski 26:41 My thing is because I used to always say No, first, I would say no, no, I don't want to do that. No. And then I had to train myself. You're like a puppy and you're a puppy in the car, and you're going to do this, it's going to happen, you can make it happen, you can go and then I would always have a fantastic time because it would take me out of my comfort zone. Yeah. Well, I love spending this time with you now tell me and tell our listeners to what tips do you have for them about how they can pivot? Or what to do when they're up against a challenge to get through it and to step into more of themselves or their authentic self or their future? What would you share? Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 27:19 Well, I would say make plans. Just be willing for those plans to actually change, you know, so but I think you should make plans and work hard and be honest, we say here at the DeBruce Foundation, hashtag truth works. So make plans, work hard, be honest, leave the results to the Lord. That's what I tend to do. But that make plans and work hard. And be honest, staying in that cycle and being willing for those plans to continue to change. So my plans today could possibly be different plans tomorrow. And I think that you also have to be brave, right? Be brave, believe in yourself, find people who believe in you. I bet that I really cannot take credit for where I am today, I really have to give that credit back to the people who have believed in me. And I will also you know, and if you have people who don't believe in you, if you are with people who are you know, sometimes people talk about a toxic culture or place that I like, Get out. Get out. There are people out there who love you and who want to be supportive of you, and will help you and help you. Yeah, and I think that's the other thing is, don't be afraid to pick up the phone and ask somebody for help. I mean, so many people, other people who you've interviewed Patti have talked about, we think that people are not accessible. And the reality is, many, many people are much more accessible than you think they are. But you do have to take the initiative. And so be confident and do that. Patti Dobrowolski 28:46 Yes, I love that. And I think I tell people that all the time, because I remember reading a really fantastic book. And I thought I wonder if that woman has an AOL account. And I just wrote her an email. And sure enough, she wrote me right back. And that showed me that I could do that with anyone. You know, somebody called me yesterday from Kuwait, in a car. It was the middle of the night, he was driving to his job. And he wanted to know, how could he showed people how to draw their future. And I was like, oh, man, like, here's the code for my class, I want you to come and do that. And then, like, let me help you to do that. Because I think this is the thing. If you're brave enough to reach out to somebody, they will respond, they will respond. And that's how we met. And I just love that, that somebody connected us. And I drew for DeBruce Foundation, and then the rest is history. I mean, I can't think of a better collaboration than the one that I have with you and the DeBruce Foundation and everybody that works here. I love them so. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 29:47 Well. For you to and we're so grateful for the audience. He's here with us. Yeah, yes. Thank you so much, because you're investing in yourself with fantastic Exactly. Patti Dobrowolski 29:57 So thank you again for all your time. And you know, if you liked this, of course, share it with your friends because that's the way we get the word out about what's happening in Kansas City because things are going down there. They're coming up from the base, and we're going to change right here in this city. So thank you so much, Leigh Anne. You're awesome and amazing. Leigh Anne Taylor Knight 30:18 Thank you, Patti. Patti Dobrowolski 30:23 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly, Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Pete works with teams and large groups to tackle corporate challenges, raise social awareness and build capability for the future. Connecting with others through his background in psychology, communication, music, business and technology to lead and marshal people from different functions, disciplines, organisations and sectors to work together on projects with a common purpose. Pete's client base ranges from big banks and telecommunication companies to emerging ventures in the digital product and renewable energy industries. He assembled and led cross-functional software development teams using agile and other methods to maintain focus on customer value and deliver impactful business outcomes. Pete is also a musician, he performed in 13 countries over 20 years, releasing 5 albums co-written with my collaborator to critical acclaim. He has a deep understanding in how to create a sense of emotional safety that helps people move beyond what divides them to find common ground. Work, too, is a creative act, and he believes each of us has a valuable part to play in creating a more equitable shared future. Timestamp 1:20 How Patti and Pete become friends 2:09 Pete's background and his life journey 7:23 Pete's 30 days kickstart challenge programme 10:52 Pete's clubhouse podcast 13:36 MI365 coaching practice 15:54 Pete's tip on how to connect with the future you 17:44 How Pete starts his day and his daily routine 23:31 How Pete's parents influenced his mindset 26:08 Inspirational idols that Pete has in his life 29:52 Trust yourself and have faith Pete Cohen's Social Media Instagram https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/?hl=en Linkedin https://au.linkedin.com/in/petecohen Website https://petecohen.com/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius. Oh, my gosh, I have Pete Cohen today. Pete Cohen is my best friend, you need to know that he lives in the UK. He's a coach. He's an author. He's the most amazing speaker, he will inspire an entire room of people to jump on their feet, you know, hold the duck on their head, you know, act wild and crazy and then have these amazing breakthroughs. I have been in many room with you on clubhouse. I've been inspired by you from the moment I met you. And I am so thrilled to have you here. Pete, I know how busy your schedule is. So thanks for squeezing me in. Welcome. Pete Cohen 01:20 Listen, it's an absolute pleasure. I was just had a flashback when you were talking about me because you and I worked together in Nice. And we had a global audience. And there were interpreters. Patti Dobrowolski 01:31 Yes, the translators in the translation booths. Yeah. Pete Cohen 01:35 And I when I was talking, I was watching them. And they were moving their hands to so much. What are they doing? Patti Dobrowolski 01:42 And thinking slow down, slow down, they have to translate slow down. Pete Cohen 01:48 Yeah. But when I spoke to them and ask them, first off, they were Italian, which might not seem. Patti Dobrowolski 01:53 That's why their hands waving. Pete Cohen 01:55 But they said we had to feel what you were saying. And that's why we're moving on. Patti Dobrowolski 02:00 Yeah, I love that. Pete Cohen 02:02 You know, that's what I one of the things I love about you, Patti, you could speak in a different language. And I would still feel like, wow, it's awesome. Patti Dobrowolski 02:09 So I feel the same way about you, Pete. You're just incredible. And so, you know, you have to tell me, how did you decide to do this? Like, you are so well known all over the UK and the world now. Right? You were known around the world a little bit. But now, I mean, you had that coach bus that went around Britain, you know, just tell me tell the audience a little bit about your story from the beginning, how Pete Cohen and then how did it begin? And then what's happening now? Okay, move us from time. Pete Cohen 02:43 Okay, so I mean, we talk about pivoting, right, which is what your podcast is all about. And I think for me, I first made a pivot when I wanted to be an actor, you know, just like you, I had a big problem. I had a big problem with acting, it was learning lines twice, I've got two major roles in productions. And both times different directors just said, look, it's taking you too long to learn the lion. So we're going to have to give that part to somebody else. And we're going to give you a smaller role. So I always wanted to act, because I love to be on stage, I love to share, you know, it's not that I want to be seen even though I did want to be seen for a long time. Patti Dobrowolski 03:19 Yes. Pete Cohen 03:19 I want to share. Patti Dobrowolski 03:20 Yeah. Pete Cohen 03:20 And I've had that wonderful opportunity. I was on TV in the UK for 10 years, I had my own TV show, I've been published by the biggest publishers in the world. And I was then another guy, none of that none of that matters. Now, probably like you like all of your listeners, we've had times where we have to pivot, but most of the times that pivots come because circumstances push us into the pivot, rather than we don't have to wait for disaster or prognosis to decide, you know, to be different. Patti Dobrowolski 03:51 Yes, it's true. And I will say this, that you really have pivoted in a major way in your frame of mind and your mindset about who you are and why you're here in the world. And so, you know, that was really an incredible change. So, you know, you mentioned one little thing, which this is something we shared in common. In our early years, we really did strive to be seen, we wanted to be seen that was the most important thing. Don't get me wrong. I love being seen. And I love being on stage. It's incredible, right? To be able to share what it is in a big audience, like you do. But you made a big mindset shift about that and tell me how did you get to this place where you're more focused on what you can do to help other people okay and on yourself? Because that is a big part of your platform. Pete Cohen 04:44 Well, I mean come on, Patti. I mean, you and I are very humble, right? We're very, very humble people. Patti Dobrowolski 04:50 I think you're more humble than I am. I'm a Leo. I can't help myself. I just get a little fool of myself sometimes. But yes, I'll pull it back. Yes. Pete Cohen 04:58 I don't think so. I think you're right Very, very humble and you get to an age, I think, where you realise that it's not really about me. It's about what I'm doing. Yeah, but it's not. Let's just be honest here, Patti, you know, I was a bit of a fraud for many years because I've been talking to people about I'm a coach. Right? Right. That's why do those people come to me? And it's like, okay, where are you? Where do you want to go? Let's sort this out. Let's talk about the future. But if you ask me about the future, I hated the question. I remember someone saying to me a guy in America, he said, Come on, let's talk about you in five years time, I said, I don't want to talk about that. Because I didn't say this. I don't have a clue what that looks like. But it was only through, as you know, my wife having a brain tumour not being given long to live, that my coach who was in Dallas at the time told me, you know, find people that are still alive and find out why. And then he said, Ask her what she's going to do when she gets better. I didn't ask her that question for three years, then I remember exactly where I was. That day. I said to her, you know, kind of Rafael asked me to ask you, what do you want to do when you get better? And she cried? Because she wasn't thinking about the future. So then guess what I did? I googled, I remember exactly where I was when I wrote the words. Throw your future into my computer. Guess who came up? Patti Dobrowolski. Well, yeah, who would have believed because I'm quite ballsy in terms of she watched your TED talk. She drew the future, the future that she drew, that is the house that we're in right now. you know. Patti Dobrowolski 06:28 Yeah. Yeah. Pete Cohen 06:29 And what was even more amazing about all of this isn't, I then reached out to your agent, your agent contacted you? You came on my podcast. But you made a few comments about the way it looked afterwards. Patti Dobrowolski 06:41 Oh, yeah. Yeah, I forgot. Something in the background there. You need, like riots backfire? Yeah, right, right. Pete Cohen 06:50 But we became great friends, you came over to the UK, you spoken at both of my big conferences, you've been an amazing friend.And you have taught me you are massively Pivotal, in what the work I now do, which is about knowing who you want to be an identifying because what got you here, it ain't got to get you there. Now, if you don't draw your future, you don't form a relationship with your future. Just literally stop and go. And go back. Go back. Patti Dobrowolski 07:23 I love that. For those of you that are just listening, he held up a stop sign just then when he said Stop, you know, because I think unless you know your history, right, and so know where you came from, my friend when he would say, you know, you have to know the past, in order to project into the future, you have to understand yourself from both ends of the spectrum. But what you did this year was you did this 28 Day Challenge 30 Day Challenge? 28 day, yeah, 30 day challenge for people so that they could step into their future self not. I love that challenge number one, because every day he gives you like, you know, 10 minutes to Pete. So you're inspired, and then something that you have to do. And here's what I loved about it the most was, you were obsessed. You know, last year, you were obsessed about the future. And in it showed up in so many ways. It showed up in such beautiful detail in that 30 Day Challenge, which I love. I love that. And this is who you are, right? Tell me about how into so you weren't into the future, right in the past, then you were into the future? And tell me now, like, how has that changed you as a person to be looking into the future? Pete Cohen 08:42 Well, when you talk when you were just talking, I went through a few different emotions when you were talking about that. And I really hit me that there is fear that is attached. There must have been fear for me in thinking about the future in an inspirational way. You know, because if you put yourself out there and you say, Well, who knows what might happen, right? That was one thing. But the other thing I just reminded me of as a child, I was always full of energy. And people would say, because I was always looking forward to something. You know, I'm not just talking about my birthday, or my Christmas or my opening the there was always something to be excited about. Patti Dobrowolski 09:18 Yeah, yeah. Pete Cohen 09:19 And that is the greatest quality of a human being is that do you want to keep going? There's something in front of you. I want to do that. I want to do that. And if it's something that I was talking to some people about this yesterday about, I think I can't remember who said it but about being a rebel. I was a rebel, but I didn't have a cause. Yeah, you know, and a Rebel Without a Cause as most of us rebelled against what we were told because it was nonsense. It was about thinking like everybody else. So I was just rebelling, but then I realised that a cause and my cause is to get as many people inspired about growing and contribute making a difference. And connecting you know me. Patti Dobrowolski 09:55 Yeah, that's right. That's right. That's right. Pete Cohen 09:59 Yeah, two pieces. All right, well, and Patti Dobrowolski 10:01 The thing that I think is fascinating is that then during the pandemic, you decided to get on clubhouse. And clubhouse for those of you that are listening have never been on clubhouse. Let me just say that it's podcast in every moment, right? You're always live on on stage and you have the opportunity to get on stage with people that you would never meet. Otherwise, I mean, they just showed up there in clubhouse. And then what was fantastic as you took the mantle in clubhouse, and you became a moderator, and an extremely skilled moderator where people really are able to share and you listen so much better than anybody in the moderation, especially me, I always take tips on that listening. But tell me, what was that like for you in clubhouse? Pete Cohen 10:52 Well, you know, clubhouse came into my life when my mum, probably one of the most difficult times of my life, you know, it was December last year that my mum was diagnosed with lung cancer. I got on clubhouse in January. And it was escapism as much as anything else, because I wanted something to do. But I was really trained very well, my dad, my dad has always said, you know, you've met my dad, he's not here anymore, either. He said, You know, it's not what you know, it's who you know. So I want to build a network, but I want to shine a light on and he was a Rotarian for over 50 years. Rotary. The motto of a Rotarian is you seek basically you seek service over self. So I want to serve. I love it. People think oh, how do you do that? It's really difficult. It's not difficult I've ever done. It's like, you know, it's like, hey, set you in a room and clubhouse is like you're in a club, and then someone comes in, hey, hey, Listen, party's over here. She did not talk draw your future. Hey, come over. Oh, hey, you over there. This person is over that. It's like, what fun? Patti Dobrowolski 11:58 That's what you really are. You're a connector. And so you'll place this person with that person, you'll get this person with that service. You know, you took the guy in Africa who had an orphanage, and you raised all this money for him. Right? You did a 24 hour like a Kickstarter online. It was amazing. Pete Cohen 12:17 We did a leadership conference, which which was, yeah, look, it's amazing, right? When you know who you are. And you know what you stand for? Even if you don't know who you are, you don't know what you stand for. One of the greatest things you can do is do something for other people. Patti Dobrowolski 12:30 Yeah. Pete Cohen 12:30 When we talk about pivoting, you know, pivoting for me is about collaborating, you know, it's about what can we do now? What can't we do? What is possible? What is the world need right now? And I think no, I mean, party, I don't mind standing. I am really concerned about the world right now. I mean, I am genuinely concerned. I have never ever, ever seen so much polarity and thought, you know, I never seen I mean, you're obviously in America, you see, even more than we do. Patti Dobrowolski 12:57 In Texas, think about the polarity right here, right? Pete Cohen 13:01 And it's gonna I hate to say this is not something I think it's going to get worse. But ultimately, the question I'm going to say is, Well, who do I need to be doing this? And who do I need to surround myself with? Because if you don't pivot in that direction, yeah, then I think you're going to get lost and call out and you're going to get caught up in a whole load of hype and whole load of, there's never been a time in history, with more uncertainty, more fear, more worry, more doubt, more restrictions. And I just think ultimately, we have to decide to up our creative genius and decide what is the future that I want to create? Patti Dobrowolski 13:36 Yes, and how can I do it every single day, get up and do something for good every day, you know, kindly go out and spread whatever it is and you're all around, you know, your coaching practice is huge. MI365 You know, that's 365 you are every single day, helping people to improve and helping people to start their business get it going say a little about that. So people understand what you do now, not just clubhouse, but I am because that is a big focus of yours. But also, you know, tell us about your coaching practice. Pete Cohen 14:14 Well, I'm very proud of my brand, you know, this brand that we created seven years ago, I wanted to get me 365 But that had already gone. That's right. It was gone. I got my because the am I the M stands for you know, the mindset What is your mindset on you know, the motivation. The AI is really the important letter, the AI stands for the identity of the person that you want to be and being inspired about being that person and having a go at doing that for 365 days. That's a long time for a lot of people. But if you really focused on being a better version of you, and you knew that was MI365 is really about identifying with who you could be because as my background is in sports, I Psychology if an athlete comes to, I'd love to hear what you think about this, let me just explain. If an athlete comes to me and I say, Okay, what do you want? They might be able to articulate what they want. But sometimes they need a bit of help, not to articulate it, but to see it. What do you want? So, okay, I want to win the World Medal, the Olympic gold. Okay, how do you know that you have? And of course, they have to go? Well, because I can see it. Okay. Okay, that person there? I'm sorry. That's not you. That is not you. That could be you. Right? It's there for you. But who is that person? Because that person is saying yes to things that you're saying no to? And is saying no to things you're saying yes to? Unless you build a relationship to that person? Yeah, then it's going to be difficult. It's going to be really, really difficult. I wonder, what's your thought about that? Patti Dobrowolski 15:54 I want to, I want to ask you. So yes, we know this from research that if you connect yourself to a future, you you have 42% better chance of success in achieving your goals. That's the stats on it. When you connect with future you, no matter how you do it, whether you get to have conversations with them, or you write them a letter or you draw a picture, right? All these things help you to do that. But what I want to know is, how do you actually connect with future you? How do you do it? You know, how does it impact how you show up in the world? And what you choose to do? Pete Cohen 16:29 It's such a great question. Because in therapy, right, you know, you and I have had therapy, we've given therapy, the exercise where they say, you know, if you could go back to your younger self, what would you say, you know, if I'd go back to my younger self, I'd say you're brilliant, don't worry about any of this stuff. Patti Dobrowolski 16:47 That's right. Pete Cohen 16:48 You're gonna if you just need to go for it, just get on with it, you know, your future is going to be so bright. But then we carry a future self. And I think most of us are living a future that we don't want. You know, I really do believe that. And I think if you wake up to the fact that there is a future you that's already out there, you just haven't connected with it. So it's like, building a relationship, building a friendship. And I envisaged my future self talking to me, I think to myself, what would you do? You know, that's how I do it my future? Patti Dobrowolski 17:17 And then you write that down? Do you write it down? Pete Cohen 17:21 Yeah, definitely. Patti Dobrowolski 17:23 Do you do any kind of meditation or anything like that? What's a day in the life of Pete Cohen and I kind of want to get an idea for that. So I'm gonna want to know that, you know, how did you how did you grow into this? And then what does it look like? So I can pull a few of those tips into my world. So you wake up at like, 3am? Pete Cohen 17:44 Well, it's definitely not everybody's cup of tea, what I do so it all starts off with a good night's sleep. And sleep has always been a bit of a challenge to me. But you know, I look to go to bed at around nine o'clock, right? And then I will wake up at four. My wife said to me other day, why are you getting up at four? Because if I had a late night, I said, because it's just a routine, you know? I need to stick to my routine. So I get up at four, I come downstairs, I put on the hot water. So I can have a cup of coffee, I drink a whole lot of water. And the first thing I do Patti is, I just love to learn. So I'm pick things I'm interested in and I make notes on it. Then at five o'clock, I'm going to access what I've got my exercise equipment right here. You know, I love movement, unlike you. I mean, you're a massive movement, advocate and life is motion. I don't always feel like it. But I got to move I got to sweat. And then I'll just do a little meditation. I've got a journal that we have. And then I go live on clubhouse. And that to me is such a privilege because I'm then I'm so ready. I've had two hours to get ready to then talk. And it's I'm vibrating. I've learned something I want to teach it. I want to share it. Patti Dobrowolski 18:04 Yeah, yeah. Sweat already. You're sweaty. Pete Cohen 18:54 Yeah, I make a cup of coffee. I sit with her for a few minutes. And then I'm bang. Let's go. And then that's what I do. I know what I love to do. And I love to help people work out when is it that you feel most alive? And I feel most alive right now just talking to you. You know, it's like I there's nowhere else on earth. I'd rather be right now than just being here knowing that someone will listen to this. And someone will go Oh, that's interesting. I never thought of that like that before. Patti Dobrowolski 19:21 Yeah, yeah. I love that. So So then you're on clubhouse, and you're on there for a while, but then you start to do coaching with people don't usually isn't part of your day doing one to one coaching. Pete Cohen 19:32 Only a bit. I used to do a lot. You know, I have a group that you have been a part of. I mean, you've effect I mean, how does that feel for you? Come on. Let me let me throw this back on you. Yeah, our relationship is pretty unique, right in terms of the impact that you've had on my life, my wife's life, the impact I've had on your life, all the people I coach, all of the people that have been through that been through the 30 day programme, have seen you because you're a part of that. All of the people that are on my elite coaching programme they all know you because they've been through another one of your courses. What's that like for you, knowing the impact that you've had on people? I'm a lot of people, you don't even know those people. They've you've never met them? Patti Dobrowolski 20:10 Yeah, you know, I never I think I don't think about that I don't think about the impact that I have, I just know that there's more people to reach. So I'm always looking for the person that is waiting out there like Siona, right? Who is trying to change the world by getting them to stop making plastic toys, who's 10 years old with their own podcast? I mean, come on, the people that I met through, you are just incredible. So what I know is that I'll randomly get these notice, you know, an email from somebody almost every single day of somebody who's seen me somewhere, or watch the video or done that. And I think to myself. Okay, good. If that's my legacy universe, I'm all in, you just show me the next door you want me to walk through. And if it continues to be this door, and I'm expanding it, that's the way to do it. And I think that's what I'd love about what you've been doing is you continue to modify and change and pivot with what your audience needs, what your community is asking for what you're listening for, which that's so essential. I think, when you're building your brand, and you're coming up with the identity of who you are and what you bring to the world. Pete Cohen 21:24 Well, you've just given me something just in terms of I really want to celebrate this year, the people that I've been on this journey with, so I'm going to celebrate them whether that's on clubhouse or with through a podcast, because what a privileged position to be, have a positive impact in people's lives. I think that I know mine, I know, I'm not going to be here forever. But while I'm here, I definitely want to just do what I can. Patti Dobrowolski 21:52 Yeah. Pete Cohen 21:52 With what I have and what I have. I mean, you know, Napoleon Hill wrote about this idea that of retirement that people buy into this idea. And then they're focusing on something which is the end. And I think, yes, that's why people die soon after they retire. That's right. I don't want to these are my best years, right? And right you for us, these should be our best years, because we've got all of this experience that we've been through. Yeah, we can share that with others. So I just feel like I've just got started when people ask me, What have you done, I think, I don't really want to tell you, but I will, because you're obviously interested. Let me tell you why you're gonna do. Well, and it's part of the essence of you. And this is something that I think is essential to changing yourself and changing your mindset. Like, really, to become a better person a better you, every single moment requires that you're grateful. So let me just say back to your question that you said to me, I'm so grateful, like you that I have the opportunity to serve, and that I'm alive, that I have a body that I'm healthy, that I can go out and serve people in any way that I can. And if that's true, and even if it's not true, if I don't feel great, I'm still going to get on the phone, I'm still going to get in front of an audience. I'm still going to do stuff. Because like you do, we're about service. So where did that idea of service you talked about your dad being a Rotarian. But where else did you learn about service? My parents? Patti Dobrowolski 23:24 They were your inspirator your mom was so incredible. Your dad both of them? They were so incredible Pete Cohen 23:31 Yeah. I mean, and also, you know, that whole thing of what's been passed on to me I want to pass on to others. I don't know if you feel the same thing, but it's almost like it's an honour that people have poured into me they believed in me when I didn't believe in myself people who aren't here anymore. It's like, wow, they've left something with me. I'm getting goosebumps as I'm saying this I can feel my hands even my hands are changing colour. You know, in the the idea of look what has been given to me I want to give it to you, you can do what you want with it, but I'm still gonna give it you know, and I think it does take many people a certain kind of age maybe to get to to realise I think more and more people are waking up to being able to realise that life is at its best when you are contributing, and you're growing. Patti Dobrowolski 24:16 Yeah. Pete Cohen 24:16 I was thinking before we came on today a party that was that I want what I do to speak louder than me. You know what I'm doing when no one else is looking who I'm being it's not holding a flashlight over myself. You know, I'm watching myself. I'm not judging myself. I'm just looking out for myself. Because no one else can look out for me in the way that I can look out for myself. You know? Patti Dobrowolski 24:37 Yeah, I I love that. Nobody could look out for me or the way I can look out for myself. Pete Cohen 24:45 Yeah, I mean, you do you always look out for me. You just be you always look out for me. You're very intuitive. You sent me messages. Sometimes I was thinking about you because that's another thing. When you were talking I was also thinking about how you're very intuitive, I would say Spiritual, which is you are guided by something that is bigger than you, you know, you have faith in the universe that everything will turn out okay. And that's very warming to me because it's nice to be reminded of that, that there's, whether it's true or not, I'm not here to prove that to anybody. Yeah, that's what I do believe. But it's not yes minded times. Patti Dobrowolski 25:21 Well, and I think that's what creates the positive energy that you exude is this place where you understand, you have a calling, you have a purpose, you've got a service, you're going to use the genetic encoding that you got from your parents, from their parents, from their parents, from whoever else, in your environment from Rafa who helped you to become your best self. Now you have to hold the mantle. And when you hold that mantle, who do you look to inspire you out in the world, like you always quote Napoleon Hill, you quote, other people that have inspired you. And so who in your sphere is inspiring you now, who's inspiring you now? Pete Cohen 26:08 Um, well, I was just thinking I have to go back. Oprah. I'm sorry. I mean, Oprah was a massive game changer for I was watching Oprah in the early 90s. And my friends were going, why are you watching Oprah Winfrey? Patti Dobrowolski 26:20 She is fantastic. Yeah, well, I love you both, too. And I was thinking too, about what you were saying. Because I think this is it. It's often when you are up against something that you find you must need to make these big pivots right in what you're doing. It might be your career, might be your focus, it might be whatever is happening. And it's the discomfort that forces you out of who you are, to step into who you could be, and you have to, you know, feel the discomfort of it. I think of the times where you felt uncomfortable, and we've shared a conversation about it. And then you have totally recommitted to something new, which I think that is an amazing thing about evolution is that, you know, as beings in the world, we have the opportunity when we come up against ourselves in a hard place to evolve. And so what do you do when you get into that stuck place in yourself or your business or with a person? What do you do? Pete Cohen 26:22 And she was bringing people to the table, that I never would have heard of people like Caroline Mays, who's this medical intuitive. Yes. Just saw Dr. Phil, you know, yeah. But now who inspires me? Well, obviously one of those people you've met, you know, that's my wife, you know, you know, she, she's incredible. She doesn't realise just the impact that he has on this world and what she's been through and what she does now in terms of create what she created for you. And Julie, this beautiful quillt, you know, I love the video that you sent when she sent it to you, you asked her to make something so she never would have imagined herself years ago. And I think that's also another important point, because she wouldn't have imagined it. Yes, that she had to go through something in order to find out really what her calling was. And her calling is to create. Yeah, you know, and, again, I don't think you realise just how much of an impact you've had on her. We love you, Patti, you know. I remember hearing someone recently talking about oh, yeah, it was Mel Robbins, actually, who also is an amazing lady. Patti Dobrowolski 28:36 Yeah, she's fantastic. 12345 go Pete Cohen 28:40 54321. Patti Dobrowolski 28:43 That's good. Pete Cohen 28:44 You wait, she talks about being stuck. I saw a video with her talking about she goes, it's good to be stuck because it's a signal to do something, but you don't stay stuck. It's a signal to move. And I think I've always known that. It's that when I feel stuck, I've got to do something. I don't understand people that when they get stuck, then I'm kind of contradicting myself. Because sometimes if I feel stuck, I'll distract myself, but I'm getting much better at going. Now. Don't do something that is productive. Don't waste time. You know, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with looking out the window and putting your feet up and all of that stuff. Patti Dobrowolski 29:19 Taking a walk, you know, to clear your head and figure out what it is. Pete Cohen 29:24 Yeah, I'm having faith and I do have a lot more faith actually over the last few years or if I'm stuck on something is to leave it. Patti Dobrowolski 29:30 Yeah. Pete Cohen 29:31 So you know what? That's again, Napoleon Hill used to call it he used to call it his sub. Hey sub, you know, asking his subconscious mind to give you before you go to sleep at night. Hey, sub? Can you get out for me? So when I wake up in the morning, the answer will be there. Patti Dobrowolski 29:45 Write down a little piece of paper, stick it under your pillow. Yeah, any kind of tips like that. I love those. Pete Cohen 29:52 Having faith. He was a very spiritual man and he endured a lot of criticism from people when my book came out talking about sexual transmutation, talking about cosmic hammer force talking about higher intelligence, speaking out against religion, speaking our education. And that's why we're someone like him being able to bring his work to remind people, I think it's important. Patti Dobrowolski 30:15 Yes, I think some of the thinkers from the past, they were able to spend the time to do some deep thinking, and they figured out a way to be able to support themselves or not, and still think these things and work them through. And I often think that we don't get quite enough time to do that. And there's a whole book on really what the internet has done in terms of our thinking, and our children's thinking about how it's such a short and shallow attention span, that you've never really dropped down. And I think you've been very good about finding a way to drop down into yourself, whether you're on a train going to give a keynote, or whether you're, you know, having I know it's a fast drop down. But you definitely drop in, in that morning time to bring forth such great things. Pete Cohen 31:09 Well, you know, so two things that came to mind when you said that the first one is just going back to MI365. My goal has always been I didn't know at the beginning, but it's to get people to own what they're doing. I want people to own it. I want it to be theirs. I don't want it to be mine. Right. Your progress, your fitness, your health, your business that you did. I might have been a guide, I have helped you, but you were the one and I want people to own Patti Dobrowolski 31:33 Yes, Pete Cohen 31:33 They do. Patti Dobrowolski 31:34 Yes. Pete Cohen 31:34 That was the first thing. The other thing that you just pointed out there about dropping down. I know I have a talent. And I'm sure other people do that getting people to drop down themselves by asking them a few questions. So you ask questions that people that go, no one's ever asked me that question. And you get people to really go to a place of real importance and real significance. The heart. The core? Yes. You know what? Patti Dobrowolski 32:01 Well, I love that. Because that's so true. You ask the best questions, but where do they come from? So you tap your creative genius in this very unique way. But I wonder, well, how does that drop in for you? So how do you know the question to ask? Pete Cohen 32:20 I just trust myself. I just I don't know whether I've always been like that. I don't it's such a great question. I don't really think I've ever given it any. My initial answer was from just a higher place. It's coming to me. Patti Dobrowolski 32:33 Yeah. So it's just coming through? That's right. It's sitting in the warehouse. Pete Cohen 32:40 Yeah. And I'm not Yeah, I'm not. So again, a massive connection between the two of us because you talk about up your creative genius. I don't know whether it was you it might have been actually that just made me think what does that word mean? Genius. And then I looked at it and it doesn't mean it really means the moral authority. Yeah, within a human being that voice. And the Romans believed every house had a genius. You know, this is a house. Patti Dobrowolski 33:09 That's right. That's right. Pete Cohen 33:10 Who are you listening to? Patti Dobrowolski 33:11 He's pointing to his body. So if you're not watching this, then he's pointing to your body is your house. And it really is, it's your vehicle, right? For bringing through whatever comes to you. And when you trust yourself, then what comes to you. This is what you're saying. What comes to you then comes out of your mouth, you trusted enough to say it? Pete Cohen 33:32 Well, anyone who's listened to the podcast, right the way through, you've obviously been listening to the genius, because there is another part of you that maybe there's been points where you thought, Oh, I've heard enough of this. I'll go and do something else. No, there's something in you that is engaged and you want to get to the end. You want to finish what you've started. Yeah, we just don't live in a world where we're really encouraged to, were not encouraged to be free free thinkers. Patti Dobrowolski 33:56 No, no, not at all. We were encouraged to be little lambs, following the sheep following everybody else going off, and then dropping off the edge of the cliff like that Dilbert cartoon. You know, I remember that. I say that for a long time. Like, don't be a sheep. But now Pete, how can people connect with what you're doing right now? How can they connect with you? I know I'm gonna put it all in the show notes. But what are you doing in January, you're doing something really cool, right? You're doing this stop something. Start something, just say a little bit about this. Although I think you'll probably be a little bit later. You'll be in February. So I would say in the future, let's go. So you get to do start something stop something. And that'll continue, right. Pete Cohen 34:39 Yeah. So basically this year we had 7000 People go through our kickstart programme, which is free. Anyone can do that. I'm sure you just put the link in there. But this year, we're doing a programme where anyone can join at any time where we are encouraging people to form a relationship to where they want to be with their health, their energy, their relationships, their welfare work. Who is that person? Right? Because they're not you. They're a part of you. But there's some work to do to become this person. What is it that you need to start doing? What is it? That we're providing an environment where people can actually go to work on putting the things in play going beyond the honeymoon period of studying something for a few weeks, get on a streak, become a different person. And obviously, I've already asked you Patti to be a part of this. Patti Dobrowolski 35:26 Oh, yeah, this, look at this. Anything I love that. Pete Cohen 35:30 Can't say this is a chess piece of the statue of David. You know, listen, Michelangelo carved that out that piece of marble. There were famous sculptures who looked at it and discarded. It said it's got too many fractions in it. But he did it. He did it. Why he saw what he wanted. He was asked how did you do it? He goes, I just got rid of what didn't need to be there. We all have that we can all carve it out. The greatest thing, what will be your greatest achievement? Not what has what will be? Will it not be who you decide to become so? Patti Dobrowolski 36:05 Yes, I love it. This is going to be so great. And I love you so much that you spent time with us today because this was incredible. This little golden drops that are dropping in. So you go back and listen to it over and over again. Follow Pete Cohen, get into a clubhouse and listen to him get in one of his rooms. Let him inspire you because it will change your life. I know it changed mine. And I'm so grateful to you, Pete for everything you and Hannah have brought into the world and into my world. Really just amazing. Thank you so much. Pete Cohen 36:40 Thank you. Patti Dobrowolski 36:41 And I will look forward to more opportunities for adventure with you Pete Cohen let's go let's do this shall we? Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on up your creative genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the up your creative genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Joseph Rosenfeld was born to be a personal style strategist. He had an epiphany in high school that remains the crux of his work for over thirty years. He theorized that personal style could transcend physical attraction. Joseph developed a strategy that saved and transformed his life. And he has gone on to transform the lives of an esteemed clientele. Clients know Joseph as a "style savant," and he is most called to serve those on a quest for transformation. His hallmark style strategy encourages clients to sync their inner and outer energy. He guides top business leaders with empathy, creativity, and precision. He shares their focus to ensure that they look on message. Quoted in The New York Times, NPR, The Washington Post, and NBC, Joseph loves sharing encouraging messages about style. He was once recognized by the San Jose Business Journal as one of its "40 Under 40." And the Silicon Valley Magazine named him best personal stylist in its It List in 2020 and 2021. In his spare time Joseph nurtures his interests in art, fashion, design, good food, and traveling. “I may never be handsome, I may never be hot, I may never be sexy. I mean, I feel good. So I mean, I got it going on. But what is true is that I could have style. And that style people would know and get to know me from the inside out, because style is about revealing who you are from deep within. It's not a surface game.” Time Stamp 1:27 How did Joseph start getting into styles at an early age? 5:02 Joseph's fashion and style design journey 7:13 Styling is not a surface game 10:26 Discovering his life's purpose from his favourite track 12:17 Joining the retail 13:29 Sharing his transformation projects experience 20:45 Joseph's workshops and fashion tips 30:34 How Joseph starts his day and his daily routine 34:01 Joseph's favourite fashion designer and how he gets inspiration from him 35:55 Joseph shares his vision and mission Social Media Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/josephrosenfeld/ LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephrosenfeld/ Clubhouse - https://www.joinclubhouse.com/@josephrosenfeld Stevie Nicks “Think About It” - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-6l3JP9mEg  Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius. Today, I have the chief style geek here that I'm going to interview in the podcast. It is so exciting to be here with Joseph Rosenfeld. He transforms geek to Chic, and he's a style savant. I've never met a style savant. But I certainly could use one he's most called to serve those on a quest for transformation. And he's going to help you everybody that's listening, transformed. Today, we're going to interview him and ask him all the ways that things we should consider when we're getting ready to go out in the world and be our brand in life. So welcome to the show, Joseph. So nice to have you here. Joseph Rosenfeld 01:21 Thank you so much, Patti. It's great to be with you and all of your followers. Patti Dobrowolski 01:27 Yeah, thanks. So alright, so I would love it. If you would just tell everyone a little bit about yourself. Like, I would love to hear your story of how you started to do this. And then what happened once you did? Joseph Rosenfeld 01:41 Well, I'm happy to share I want to be as upbeat and uplifting about this as you are. What I have to say the story is the downer, but we have to kind of remember that we're all here. I'm here. I've made it. So there is an uplifting parts of this. So I was really beaten up and bullied kid. And that's very serious and sobering. And I'm a survivor of that survived sexual attacks in my home by a babysitter when I was a boy. And so what all that did was it kind of disempowered me, I didn't have a voice. I didn't have a connection to my own spirit. And I believed all the negative BS that all the kids threw at me about how ugly I was and how they other me, they othered me for the way that I looked Jewish. They bothered me for having a big schnoz being left handed wearing glasses, having a long face, all the things being short and for having even what I would now describe in polite company as homosexual tendencies, like yes, no, just my demeanour, my behaviour, however, which way people thought that I was gay? You know, I think that they bother me in all these ways. And when I finally got clear on honestly, like, even if the journey is up to now, like, as of two weeks ago, I finally actually got superduper clear on this Patti? Patti Dobrowolski 03:09 Yes. Joseph Rosenfeld 03:10 Why did this happen? They feared my presence. It wasn't just about my appearance, only it was what laid behind it. It was also why they were attacking me for things that weren't obviously visible, like my faith belief. Patti Dobrowolski 03:25 Yes. Joseph Rosenfeld 03:26 Or even my sexual orientation, my identity, they was really cutting me, you know, down because they could see how strong and powerful I was even as little guy and a could not take me. Patti Dobrowolski 03:40 Yeah. Joseph Rosenfeld 03:41 Is it any wonder that this is really what I do for a living is help people stand up to anybody, and to stand up to ourselves and be our best selves ever? Patti Dobrowolski 03:53 Yes. Oh, my God, I love you so much. And I think, you know, I had a similar upbringing in those ways. You know, lots of things happen, because clearly I was gay. From the time I came out, you know, the womb, I wanted to wear my real clothes, and I dressed in combat gear most of the time. And, you know, I was just always, always othered for those kinds of things. And you know, what's beautiful about what that experience does, is it takes you into what you're talking about by truly helping people to stand in their power as them their true selves. And I think for so many people, it's scary. It's scary to see someone who really is standing in their power who really is their true self and is not going to change that for anyone. And so beautiful, beautiful on you for doing that. So you had this horrific childhood experience, you know, that you worked with, etc. Now, how did you get into doing fashion and style design? Tell me what led you to do that? I'm sure you did that from the beginning, but tell me more about that. Joseph Rosenfeld 05:02 So there was an epiphany that I had. I'm a man with many epiphanies throughout life. And you could probably relate to this, you know, as a fellow creative, that every time I have another like big Whoo, epiphany thing going on, like, everything in life becomes a new, it's the same life, but it's like life at next level. Patti Dobrowolski 05:25 Yes. Joseph Rosenfeld 05:26 So when I was 15, on top of all the tumult and turmoil that was going on, another horrible thing happened, which is my father dropped dead of heart attack. Patti Dobrowolski 05:36 Oh, my gosh. Joseph Rosenfeld 05:37 Oh, now that was like really hitting the rock bottom. And I just wanted everything to end and contemplated constantly. And the whole turnaround really happen there. When I discovered this was the mid 1980s, a book that had been out already for a little while, it was very irreverent. No one was supposed to take it seriously. Except me. It was called the Official Preppy handbook. And I as a midwestern North Chicago, suburban, you know, guy teenager, was looking for a way out, but to stay alive. And so I discovered the Official Preppy handbook, and I had this high school teenage aged epiphany, which was, if I could have style, no one would be able to tell me that I was ugly anymore. That style would transcend anything about physical appearance and attractiveness. And my hypothesis was, I may never be tall, which did turn out to be true. Patti Dobrowolski 06:42 Right, you're an inch taller than me. I love that. Joseph Rosenfeld 06:47 And I thought I may never be handsome, I may never be hot, I may never be sexy. Now, I mean, I feel good. So I mean, I got it going on. But what is true is that I could have style. And that style people would know and get to know me from the inside out, because style is about revealing who you are from deep within. It's not a surface game. Patti Dobrowolski 07:13 Wow. I love that. I love that it's not a surface game. It comes from deep within style. And so you that handbook helped you to realise that if you could project that inner style outwardly, right, that inner self outwardly that it would change everything? And did it you tested it. So what happened? Joseph Rosenfeld 07:35 The hypothesis worked event, so shortly into the whole thing. And this has to do in a way with the concept around personal branding and marketing, if you will, you make a certain number of reimpressions upon people, and they finally get like, you know, hit over the head, like the old VA commercials, I could add a VA. So people finally stopped, like bothering me and telling me that I was ugly. Yeah, this was pretty incredible. Because that eliminated a lot of noise in my head, even though the tapes were still playing. Patti Dobrowolski 08:11 Yes. Joseph Rosenfeld 08:11 And a lot of reverb like a concussion. Patti Dobrowolski 08:15 Oh my God. This is so true about limiting beliefs. They are like reverb in your head, they just play over and over again until you move the record. Joseph Rosenfeld 08:23 Exactly. Like let's pick up the needle and move it. So what was really great is that it allowed me to have some quiet within myself, so I could learn who I was. Now, in 1997. Tom Peters, famously then introduced this notion around personal branding. I think I was way ahead of the curve, not understanding what the hell it was that it was personal branding, but being able to go inside to say, Who am I what am I? What do I really believe in? What would I live for? All of those things equate to things that have to do with the personal brand. And I have to tell you that the great saviour around all of this is my favourite singer songwriter ever. And a song that she wrote in 1974 that was released on her debut solo album in 1981. That by the time I was really listening to it, this particular song became my mantra. It's a Stevie Nicks song called "Think about it" as her one of the lines and there are many lines to that song. I think everyone should go and give it a listen. Patti Dobrowolski 09:36 Definitely. Joseph Rosenfeld 09:37 She sayings your fortune is your life's love. And I thought, I can't end because I don't have my fortune because I don't know what my life's love is. Patti Dobrowolski 09:50 Yes. Joseph Rosenfeld 09:50 I feel that for all of us. Our life's love has to do with our mission and our purpose and our values and just our variable being like, who we are supposed to be without any explanation or justification or action to make ourselves worthy of anything, like we just belong to exist. And that song lyric, the whole song, but that line alone just gave me, you know, laser focus, purpose and vision. So I thought, I've got to go forth and figure out what that is. Patti Dobrowolski 10:26 That's right. That's what you do. And so you did, you went out and you went forth. And what did you find? Joseph Rosenfeld 10:33 So I then came to really understand that as much as I was interested in the idea of getting involved in politics, and government, public service, those things really whet my appetite in the later part of my high school years. So yes, junior senior years of high school, I think what happened was, by the time I was enrolled in college, and was really enjoying some of the special projects I was doing, I was enjoying the special projects. More than I was enjoying classwork. Patti Dobrowolski 11:05 Yeah. Joseph Rosenfeld 11:06 And I also decided, I don't want to be known as the gay politician. Patti Dobrowolski 11:12 No, no. Joseph Rosenfeld 11:14 And this was the now that like the mid to late 1980s. And AIDS crisis was like, huge. Patti Dobrowolski 11:20 Yes, was horrible. Joseph Rosenfeld 11:23 You know, very famous people. And it was just in my head at that point where I thought, I've already come through so much I just fell in, I just didn't think I could take it anymore. So I couldn't go back into being barraged for me being me that even though I survived, and I'm tough guy, that's too hard. So I thought, I really want to help people and make a difference in their lives. And I also just decided college was not going to be my thing, even though right into learning. And I advocated for most people. I made the other choice, which was to stop. And I went to Neiman Marcus in Chicago. And I said, Look, I see that you're hiring, and I need a job, give me a job. And I was the youngest person that they ever put out on the selling floor at that time. Patti Dobrowolski 12:16 It's fantastic. Joseph Rosenfeld 12:17 Yeah, it was cool. The store on Michigan Avenue in Chicago had been open seven years. I was 19 when they put me out on the floor. Patti Dobrowolski 12:25 Wow, that's so crazy. Good. Joseph Rosenfeld 12:27 That was amazing. And kind of, you know, there's more to that. But in essence, the rest is history. I had 12 year career in high end retail before I decided to go out on my own, and work as an image consultant and personal stylist. And for the last 21 years I've been successfully self employed. Patti Dobrowolski 12:47 Well, yeah, you're crazy busy to like trying to get you was almost impossible to get an interview with you. Because you were in Austria, you were in, you know, Paris, you were in Denver, you were in, you know, you're just Silicon Valley, you're all over the place you're working with, you know, execs and pro sports people and people just like me, right business owners who want to change their brand and bring it forward in a way that aligns you. That's what you do now. Right? So say a little bit about what you love about what you're doing right now. And if you can speak, you know, without talking about client names, but speak a little bit about the kinds of projects you're working on. Joseph Rosenfeld 13:29 Sure. So, for example, I have worked with different clients to help them escalate from being at one level of authority and accompany to becoming CEO of a company. This doesn't happen overnight, because competence has to be proved. Someone show up with a strong CV to begin with, they've got to have it going on. Right, then there's also the presence piece, and how is someone pivoting to make the right appeal to the right audience. And so these are all things that I strategize with leaders to add to the competence. It's, you know, there was this, I think they may have taken the drug off the market, but there used to be this TV commercial where they would show like an ice cream sundae or something and then they would show like the human being kind of dressed like the ice cream sundae. It's like very much about being like on brand in that way. So when somebody especially my clients were in high tech and leadership, they have to look like themselves and be authentic and genuine that way. But they also have to appeal to what the brand ethos is of the company, and sometimes even to the degree that they might match a little bit. Patti Dobrowolski 14:53 Yeah, the branding colours and everything like that right. Joseph Rosenfeld 14:56 The product or the service in a way like super quick example of that would be like someone like Steve Jobs, may he rest in peace. You know, when he and Johnny Ivy designed the original iPhone concept with their team, the iPhone looks so sleek and minimal, probably looks like a better version of Steve Jobs, quite frankly. But he was a very minimalist guy like us, not a lot of bells and whistles going on with him. And all the Guts and Glory was all inside. But he looked kind of streamlined on the outside, sort of like, you know, your iPhone could like, write like an essay, Miyazaki. Patti Dobrowolski 15:34 He's holding up his iPhone right now and showing it to us. So those of you that are listening, he's just showing us how sleek and beautiful it is right? Joseph Rosenfeld 15:42 You look at your black screen. It looks yes, me Aki black mock turtleneck, sweatshirt really does it know that Steve Jobs were every day that was his uniform. So that to me is an example of how to really show up and look on brand to deliver the right message. So I love getting people to the salient points of that, so that they do what they're supposed to do as top leaders to inspire to serve. Not a self serving thing. This is really about how leaders show up to lead. Yes, leaders. Patti Dobrowolski 16:18 There we go. Joseph Rosenfeld 16:20 That to me is a really exciting thing to do. And I would say that that's part of it. There are other people who I work with, like my oldest client right now. She's 81. She is fabulous. She had an issue where she almost couldn't walk anymore. And years before she and I met she had foot surgery. Here in New York. She lives in California, by the way, her foot surgeon told her you can walk as long as you wear certain shoes, but no more dancing. No more high heels. Patti Dobrowolski 16:53 Oh, yeah. Joseph Rosenfeld 16:53 You know, those days are over? Well, she felt so disconnected from the life that she used to have that although she was alive, she didn't feel alive, she felt she was just existing. So we got to meet. And I decided that what I would do is work with her footwear based on the parameters that we had to work with and fetishize them as if she was Sarah Jessica Parker and Sex in the City. Patti Dobrowolski 17:21 I love that. Joseph Rosenfeld 17:22 We you know, there are going to be Manolo Blahniks. Louis Vuitton will be no bowls, whatever. But what we could do is take the shoes and make them look yummy and delicious with the rest of an outfit. So I started with her footwear and levelled up. One day, her daughter came in to the dressing room, here in New York City. And I was showing her a complete wardrobe, starting with the shoes, and then everything else from the ankles up. And she and her daughter had like big boohoos in the dressing room, and I knocked on the door, and I send us everything okay in there? And they open the door, and we had a group hug. And the daughter said, I have my mom back, what did you do? Patti Dobrowolski 18:13 So sweet. Joseph Rosenfeld 18:15 I mean, this is like the thing that I live for these kinds of things where the things that I'm doing are not merely transactional, like make me look good. And like, I don't want to learn how you made me look good. Just make me look good. That's a little more transactional. And I do that for people who need that. But yes, this other type of instance, it's totally about having the deepest kind of relationship really connecting soul to soul, really seeing a person and seeing into that person and then giving that back. Patti Dobrowolski 18:48 Oh, I love that. That was one of the things that I noted. You know, I dug around on you. I've stopped you a little bit, you know, on the internet to see what things were said and what you did. And one of the things that you wrote is I study you like nobody's business, like nobody's business. And I think that really says so much about the heart of what you're doing. You're really trying to see, what is somebody about? And how could I reflect that in a way that brings more of them forward no matter what it is that they're doing. And so, if you're listening today, what we are getting here is about you knowing inside who you are, and then allowing that to emerge in how you look and feel, whether it's you know, wearing something that is a T shirt and you know, some high tops that match who you would look and feel like but also how you want to be seen in the world. I work with this a lot. You know, I love glasses. And so this is my thing. This is the way that I express myself is I'm like this is part of my brand, you know, I want to be my brand in every moment. So people realise, yes, you can be creative and you can look, the part of what you do in the world. What would you say to people who are, you know, struggling to figure out how you know, with their look, what would you say to them? Where's a good place for them to start? I saw that you were doing some workshops. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. He's doing some workshops. But I also saw that you really are starting at the core. So tell people, what can they do, just by going into their closet and their wardrobe and see how can they consider what they're doing when they're putting on their clothes. Joseph Rosenfeld 20:45 The first thing to absolutely pay attention to is colour. You know, when you go into your closet, or when you go into a store looking for something new, you're always looking for you. And colour is one of these things that we are always looking for. If you don't see the colour that you're looking for in a story tend to go right by the rack. Even if you're in the right department, you're shopping for basically, the right item might have in mind, if the colour isn't there, you're out. So thinking of colour is a wonderful and grounding place to begin, one of the things that I recommend is that you look at your own physical colouring, to look at what I call your DNA colouring, even if your DNA colouring is say this with love, manufacture DNA, like if you're colouring your hair. Patti Dobrowolski 21:41 I would have manufacturing DNA, he speaking to me right there. So I'll take it. Joseph Rosenfeld 21:46 That's true. But you know what's terrific is that if you've made that choice, you've made that choice for a reason. And that says something about your energy. So colour is energy, and there is something that is vibrational about it. So one of my favourite tips and tricks is if you can identify the colour or colours that are in your eyes, like in the iris, find those colours in clothing and then repeat it on your body. That creates a kind of elegance. Even if you're wearing like something like a simple knit top, it helps people find and connect with the truth of who you are as a human being. And you might wonder like, hey, what does you know, moss green have to do with anything. But we have and I'm wearing moss green? That's why I say that right now. Patti Dobrowolski 22:39 Yes. Right. What I knit top I might add, it's really nice. It looks beautiful. And it's great. And I bet you behind those glasses, your eyes match that colour. Am I right? They match entirely. Yes, I'm leaving. Now he's leaning in. And you can see that his eyes are that same moss green colour. Those are beautiful eyes, by the way. So I'm really great, thank you. Joseph Rosenfeld 23:02 So what is powerful about this is we may not have the language to understand with fluency, what it is that we are looking at, but we have been socialised in Western society to pick up the nuances and the vibe loves all kinds of colour. In fact, we know from looking at colour from when we are newborns, the first colour that we actually ever see is yellow, and then we move on to red, and then we move on to blue. And then other colours come about as our eyes develop more. Patti Dobrowolski 23:43 How cool. Joseph Rosenfeld 23:45 And even for people who may be listening in who can't see, you know that you can feel colour because colour does have this vibration. You can be around a person or you could be in a room where you can almost sense the colour. And even if you don't know what the colour is, if you could describe the feeling of the room that you're in, or the space that you're in, or of the energy of the person that you're in conversation with. You could really use descriptive words that somebody would come back and say, oh my gosh, you're entirely describing the vibe of the colour purple. How did you know that I'm wearing a purple blouse right now, like that kind of thing can happen. It does happen. People feel the vibration of colour. We just don't always have the language of fluency. So the reason why I say work with colour is, you know, in your gut, when there's a colour that you love, or a colour that repels you, why is my work with a colour that repels you, for example? So if you could think about that there's a lot that you can pick up on. I have a whole system that I do with my clients where I study their colours in a very in depth kind of way, but to be able to do it on your own, you can still start out by thinking through what are the colours that I really love? And if you aren't so sure, go look in your closet and look at the rhythm of colour own and see hmm, why do I own so much black? Or why do I own so much navy blue? Now, you can think critically about that. Also, by the way, and say, I have you know, hazel eyes, why am I not buying things that are in the olive tones? Or the mage tones? Like, why am I playing it so safe over here with black? So you can have a conversation with yourself and ask yourself legitimately good questions that challenge your conventional thinking about your habits. Patti Dobrowolski 25:50 I love that. I love that. Because if I look in my closet, you know, I have a lot of blue, I wear a lot of blue, and chartreuse, and these really bright colours, but I rarely wear brown and my eyes are brown. And so why do I rarely wear brown because I have an opinion about brown, right. But if I had brown, more brown in my I would be in alignment with that. And then I can accent something with the colour that I want to pull out. Right. And so I think this is part of it, that you want to really pay attention to what you're doing now. And if you want to transform and what you're talking about as up levelling yourself, is that come into alignment with who you are internally, and also externally, what your face looks like in your skin looks like like I know, you know, if I put on something that's really orange, oh, no, it just doesn't really work for me for some reason, right? I don't feel good. Right? Joseph Rosenfeld 26:50 That's right, yeah, you know, if you're not feeling good, and something or like you have a huge high energy, orange, the hottest colour and the colour wheel. And when you put orange on you, you might feel small compared to the power of the orange, which is weird, because you're a very high energy. But sometimes that's the thing about colour is it can be like blob, like, wow, you know, can be very overwhelming the thing about brown for someone like you, and I'm going to just use you as an example. Because everybody knows who you are and what you look like for you to wear brown, it would be easy for you to do in the way that you could wear black as a high contrast because your hair is so lightened and bright and platinum. And that compared to the darkness of your eyebrows, which are more like your natural hair colour, and how light and clear your skin tone is, that creates a lot of contrast. So if you were to wear brown, not a muddy brown, but like a really dark, kind of like a strict brown that you could say, this is the brown that I could wear, that would be like black, and maybe a little bit of a red undertone to it like this in your eye, then you're wearing something that is totally in alignment with you, even though it may be stark, it's in high contrast. It's bold, it's dramatic. And that is who you are. So there are ways of being able to think about it that way. And that's just an example that applies to you. But it's a way of demonstrating to other people, you know, how you actually look at a colour that you might even say, No, that's a kind of a sleeper idea for me, how do I incorporate? We're talking about that outer alignment. But as I'm describing your own colour contrast, I also am identifying with like that boldness that exists from within. So if you right now but within and then you look that way outside, why not just go for it? Patti Dobrowolski 28:47 Well, I love this because I think that I don't know about you. But I think that in our world, we become afraid of things that we have never tried sometimes. And I think it shows up in your style. That's where it shows up. So when I went to France and I visited my friend Dawn, she was like, come on, we're gonna go out to the Buddha bar, we got to get dressed up, but you need to wear a scarf and I'm like, I'm so gay. That scarf is gonna look terrible on me. She goes, No, we're going to put that scarf on because it's going to change everything. And let me just say, I was transformed in that experience. So now I often will wear a scarf all often augments something with something that I never thought of before. And I think this is what you're talking about. You can ground yourself in a colour that is aligned with you and then you can be and sort of blast off in my you know, terminology blast off to be all of you are with the rest of you. And in a way when I think about that, like that is what's beautiful about the expression of colour is that colour allows you to ground yourself in you And then from the rest of that you can become even more of who you truly are. I love that. I love this. That was just fantastic little nugget and piece of it now, knowing your world I want to know. So like, what's the day in the life of you, Joseph look like like, what do you do? What's your routine so people could get to know you on that level? Like, what do you do when you get up? What do you do? How do you stay centred, when you're flying all around like that, tell us a little bit about what the day in the life of you looks like? Joseph Rosenfeld 30:34 Well, my home life is a little bit different than when I'm travelling at home, I'm up first thing, making coffee, usually going into clubhouse now to, you know, participate in a couple of rooms in the morning, getting you know things together in my thoughts, getting some inspiration and sharing some maybe checking my email. And then I have calls or I go to the gym, and then I'm on to client appointments and meetings, and so on, either in person or on Zoom. And when I'm building a wardrobe, I have to carve out hours for that. And then like I'll be doing something like that tomorrow, where I've got a dental appointment and a hair appointment. And then the rest of the afternoon I'm dedicated to doing some, as I say Schmieding around, where I've got to go look for things for a client and have it ready to go. So that when I go back to California, the first week of December, I'm already and so those are the ways that I sort of structure my day. So very flexible, depending on what's happening now and I'm out west, I can't sleep I have way too much energy. So I'm up at like 530 Like, you know, put on yoga gear and I power out for a big walk. I will walk anywhere between 10 and 20,000 steps in the morning, depending on when I have to actually get my day started. And I just crushed it all day with meetings. You know, Friday last week, this is for anyone who's in the Bay Area. I started out in Mountain View, went to San Jose did a colour profile for three hours, got back in the car, drove to Walnut Creek, did it wow ration, Brian with a client that was all great, got in the car, drove back down to San Jose met with another client, we tried on three suits for first fitting that was all great, went up to San Francisco after that did some stuff up there had dinner as well made the most of my time came back down to Mountain View after that probably put like, an excess of 200 miles on the car. Patti Dobrowolski 32:38 That was gonna say and that's a lot of sitting in traffic right now down there in the Bay Area, although it's a little improved there. But still, like that's crazy. Well, that is. So you really have to take care of yourself and your body and all the things. So I love that you're going out there and you're getting all those steps in before you get in that car. And then you're seeing people. And this to me tells me a little bit about yourself that you're looking for inspiration first thing in the morning, and then you're going out to do whatever it is that you need to do, and pulling that inspiration through. And I think you know, you're about helping people transform themselves, their look, their brand look and their style. And this is so essential. We talk about transformation here in these podcasts all the time. And people mostly talk about transforming their career, or they talk about transforming their brand look and feel in terms of their business. But talk with seeming that together with transforming your style look, so that you really do step into the chic issue that you possibly can. I love that this is fantastic. So who right now in terms of in this space that you're in, who's inspiring your who you're watching to see what they're doing. Do you do that? Do you do that a lot watch different designers to see what they're up to? Joseph Rosenfeld 34:01 Well, I would say my favourite fashion designer for some time now is Drees Van Noten. I think that he just has such an elegance and such a flair and such a verb. If I get to show Drees to a client because his aesthetic matches their style profile. And the colours are also a good colour match. Like he made it and here I'm finding it for you know, I'm able to show it to somebody that's really very fantastic. I love when that gets to happen. I'm a Drees wear myself, I think it's when I find something exciting for me. It's awesome. I'm also a really big Tom Ford fan. He's just turned 60. So I really admire his journey. I admire the transparency around the challenges of his journey. He's been very vocally public about some of it as recently this week, just talking about the story struggles that he faced when he turned 40. Maybe he never had the challenges that folks like URI faced when we were young kids, but his challenge decade came around in his 40s with drugs and alcohol and, you know, the high life of being super high flying and successful, and yet being depressed. And so, he really shows that kind of a humanity. And yet, I love how, for example, his women's clothing is just full of unbridled sex appeal. And yet for his Menswear. I love that He has this look, not maybe not always in his suitings but in his sportswear looks that I've been fancying for me personally. Yeah, yeah. They look very fluent. Like you might live in New York City. But you have a home and Aspen or I love. Patti Dobrowolski 35:45 Yeah, yeah. Joseph Rosenfeld 35:45 They look very fluent. Like you might live in New York City. But you have a home and Aspen. Patti Dobrowolski 35:55 You have a home in New York City, which now is that affluence? You know, I mean, that's what's true, right? But it could be anywhere. I love that I love this piece of it. And when you think and you know, you listen and reflect and look at what people are doing and style, etc. What's your big dream for yourself? What is the vision that you hold for yourself, that you'll transform into or step into, as you continue on this journey? What's that vision look like? Joseph Rosenfeld 36:24 I love doing the stuff that I'm doing every day right now, it's so exciting to be doing this kind of work. One of the things that I'm branching into, that I'm very good at because of the overall modus operandi that I work under, is working with lawyers and expert witnesses to prepare them for trial, like corporate things. Patti Dobrowolski 36:48 Yes. Joseph Rosenfeld 36:49 Corporate intrigue, and helping to really connect. And to tell a better story with the jury is something that I doing quite a bit of this work right now. And I'm really enjoying that. But besides that, being able to make a difference for people, and being able to do it at the scale that I'm doing where there is intimacy is very important to me. Patti Dobrowolski 37:14 It's the 81 year old woman, right? Who had that transformation within herself. Joseph Rosenfeld 37:19 That's right may sound a little selfish of me. But I want to be able to give 100% of me to another person in exchange for them being so open and courageous, to share themselves with me, so that I can help them. It really fulfils my mission. And that in conjunction with getting out and doing more talks at high schools. Patti Dobrowolski 37:45 Yes. Joseph Rosenfeld 37:46 To inspire kids, to not bully one another, to live another day to envision what life could be, wow. Even if you have to pick out a hobby that you do all by yourself, because there is no one now me that if I could reach one kid, one teenager that needs that message, and to see me embody the success of that, that's worth everything to me. Wow, those are the kinds of things that I really want to do more of, and I am doing that. Patti Dobrowolski 38:24 I love that. And, you know, I remember reading that in there execs and you know, this sports people and etc. And then high school students was at the bottom. And I was like, yes, because that's where it all begins. That's where we feel so disempowered and disconnected from ourselves, because we're not able to live our authentic life there. Because everybody's trying to sort of step on each other to get somewhere and get seen. And that really that behaviour has to shift. And it's up to us, really, I think, as people who have lived through that, to really speak to that and let people know, you know, it's okay to be yourself. You have to bring yourself, the world needs you. There's only one YOU, you know, step out and do that. Well, I love having this time talking to you. It's been incredible. And I'm going right away to go and look at brown because I never did before. And now I really am desperate to go out there and see like, what would brown look like? Where could I find a kind of brown with a red undertones in it? That might help me and so I hope the next time that I see you, which I hope you'll come back and let me interview you again. Because after you've gone out and travelled the world will you let me do that? Joseph Rosenfeld 39:39 Oh, I would love to come back. This is a great conversation. And I feel like when you're talking about up in your creative genius, I think there's a lot of overlap between what you do and what I do just in different ways. And I feel a lot of synergy where we just scratched the surface and so lovely to do that with you Patti. Patti Dobrowolski 40:00 I would love that and I have so enjoyed getting a little peek into your world. I've never been in this world before with anybody other than the person who has dressed me before in some Nordstroms you know, dressing room. But I love this because I just know that there's so much information in what you share with people that's valuable to them, that will help them feel more aligned with themselves and love themselves. But really, in the end, you got to love who you are. And if you love who you are, you want to express who you are. And those two things help. Right and we learned that in the preppy handbook. So I can't wait to hear more tips like that from you, Joseph, thank you so much for taking time here with us. Everybody. Don't you think he was fantastic round of applause. I love this. Okay, so just for those of you that are listening, I just want you to look down below in the show notes follow him. He doesn't clubhouse room. When is your room and clubhouse Do you have a regular room people can come and talk to you. Joseph Rosenfeld 41:05 There is a regular room. I do it most Wednesdays unless I'm flying or unless I'm abroad. And I typically do it on Wednesdays at 7pm Eastern time. And the topic is around The Introverted Executive. That's the name of my clubhouse club. And we often talk about things related to executive presence and, you know, covering things around colour and style and fashion and image and personal branding and my favourite word gravitas. And all of these things come together to paint a full picture of who we really are as total people. Patti Dobrowolski 41:45 Yes, I love that. So please join him on clubhouse, follow him on Instagram. And you can find more information about him in the show notes and in the transcription on YouTube, etc. And in my blog post. And if you liked this interview, share it with people because this guy really is amazing. And he has so many great golden tips in here. For people who are feeling and struggling with their style and coming in contact with it and how to grab it. This is really helpful. And for those of you that are listening, you know, go out in the world and bring your true self there's only one you and we're waiting for you. So have a great, fantastic rest of your day, everybody. Thank you again, Joseph. Thank you for being here. Joseph Rosenfeld 42:31 Thank you, Patti. It's great. All right. Patti Dobrowolski 42:34 Thank you. Bye bye. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

I feel proud and humbled at the same time to bring this episode out.....Normally, we can't see our dreams when we wake up. But how about the dreams that keep you awake? There is a way to not just dream big, but even see it every day to achieve it.What are the 3 bold steps you'll take for your future? Patti Dobrowolski, a 4 times TED Speaker, an Author, business coach and founder of upyourcreativegenius guides us on how we could arrive  at the 3 bold steps to achieve our dream... Draw it, see it and act on it. New year is the best time to give your goals a good start!Follow Patti here ->Website:  https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/Instagram: @upyourcreativegeniusLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/Happy new year! 

Fashion industry veteran and expert Robin Fisher is one of the leading image consultants in the Washington DC Metro area. In 2008 Robin left the corporate fashion world and put her passion behind a new labor of love: Polished, a full service personal styling and corporate image consulting agency. Robin's experience in the fashion industry spans over twenty five years and has included positions ranging from Executive Department Store Buyer, Magazine Creative Director, International Production Manager, and more. A certified image consultant who received intensive training in London, her personal clients include high achieving female executives, diplomats, judges, attorneys, doctors, authors, news anchors and any woman that is ready to get her style back on track! Robin has also been featured on CNN, FOX, NBC, Redbook, The Epoch Times, Washingtonian, Capital Files Magazine, Modern Luxury, and more. SOCIAL MEDIA Instagram - @polishedimage  Twitter - @polishedimage  Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/PolishedImage/ Linkedin - https://www.linkedin.com/in/polished/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagramhttps://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Linkedinhttps://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Geniushttps://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  Timestamp 2:02 Meeting Robin Fisher and understand how she gets into fashion 5:37 Her leap into fashion industry after internship 5:51 Confidence lies in what you wear 9:24 Composing her own business process 15:20 How Robin started Polished as a working mom 21:16 Robin has always been into fashion since she was a kid 23:05 Robin's shares about her first client and her business startup 26:23 Make a business out of your interest - you will never feel like work 28:59 Fashion tips from Robin 31:26 Polished - six week program 33:47 Future vision of Robin and Polished 37:46 Robin's way of starting her daily routine  Transcript Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars, welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week, I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hi, everybody. All right. It is so amazing. All right, because I am so excited about our guest today. She's a fashion industry veteran, and an expert - Robin Fisher. She's one of those amazing people. She's from the Washington DC area. But in 2008, she left the corporate fashion world and she went into her passion to really help people to create a look and feel for who they are. And her experience in the fashion industry has really changed the face of everything. She's worked with executive placement, store buyers and magazine creative directors. And she's been doing all of these fantastic things in the international space. And so I am super excited to have you here. Robin, you got to tell us about you and how you got started. I'm not sure I gave you all the right accreditation. Should we start that again? I'm sure we'll cover it. So that's good. So tell me all right, so you're helping people to get their look and feel together. Right? So tell me how did you get started doing this? Because you came from the fashion industry. So where did you work? And what did you do in the past? And how did you even get into that? Where were you born? And tell us a little bit about you and your past? I'd love to hear it? Robin Fisher 02:02 Sure. So I was born and raised in Oakland, California. Patti Dobrowolski 02:06 Yes. Robin Fisher 02:08 And my grandmother actually owned a business in San Francisco and she dealt with antiques and vintage. And so literally people would come to her when I was a little girl or costuming. So it would be jazz singers, theater, you know, costume designers and you know, collectors and all those kind of things. But where we would go to get the merchandise was where I really kind of fell in love with the whole process of fashion and manufacturing and all that kind of stuff. Because we would take trips into Denver to the cotton mills. And so when I was a little girl, I would climb like a story high of nothing but cotton garments. And basically they were there to get bleached back white soaked, and then the yarns come apart and then re-spun into thread. And so my grandmother was there to pull out the antiques and the vintage finds before they went through that process. So that was something that I actually just was always anamour with. And then Oakland is in San Francisco definitely is an industrial kind of town. And so as I got older, you know, my mother is a master tailor. She used to sew people, wedding gowns and prom dresses in our living room. And so I just had always been around the industry, you know, but I was a troubled teen, you know. Patti Dobrowolski 03:33 Oakland, I lived in Oakland, so I do a lot of trouble. Robin Fisher 03:38 And so but I just always wanted more for myself. But the biggest thing that I watched my family work together as a family, and if our businesses made money, that meant we ate well, that week, if our business didn't make money, it was a little bit of a struggle. And so I always have a personal goal of mine was for me to go into the fashion industry at a corporate level. However, you didn't see a lot of people back in those days that looked like me know for sure. But people definitely never really took me seriously. But it was just something that was a burning desire, because I just love the legacy of my family. So it wasn't until I went to college, got my act together, and 19, 20 years old and finally enrolled in San Francisco State that I started you know, I'd always worked retail jobs. You know, even my first job outside of my grandmother and family's business was at the Ross Dress For Less you know, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I've worked you know, high end retail, you know, Ferragamo and Nordstroms. And, you know, all that kind of stuff and I just loved you know, just the whole sales process helping people and I did that all through college, but once I was coming out, I took a non paid internship at a fashion company in San Francisco that hired me probably about six or eight months before I actually graduated. And then I was put on full time once I graduated. Patti Dobrowolski 05:02 Wow, that's fantastic. Well, you know, that's where I came from that that's what I did. When I was in college. I did all that retail, you know, Nordstrom, Frederick and Nelson when they existed, you know, just worked in all those places so that I could afford to buy some clothes, right at a discounted price. Robin Fisher 05:22 Right, exactly. Patti Dobrowolski 05:23 Yeah. Gotta get your look and feel. Robin Fisher 05:24 Yeah. Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 05:27 So well, that's incredible. I love that you came from that history. And so then when you did that internship, then what happened? What you do after that? Robin Fisher 05:37 Sure. So I honestly got that internship, because it was at the time that we were going from flatlay patterns that people were drafting on the tables, but into computer aided drafting. And I had been writing. Patti Dobrowolski 05:50 So CAD drawing, yes? Robin Fisher 05:51 CAD, and I had been certified in AutoCAD. And so the reason they had hired me was to take their hard patterns into digitalization to you know, help lead that process. And so after that, once I graduated, and went into full time they put me on international production teams. Oh, fantastic. Yep. All right. innerwear, which is underwear, and then also special cuts, that's when companies would come to us and want us to run their private label. And so I really looked around, and because even a home girl coming out of Oakland, you know, I was going to college. I remember saying, Okay, well, I don't look like a college and really making that transition to you know, Jack Purcells vintage 501. So why as you know, t shirt, and, you know, just Eddie Bauer puff coat, and that became my uniform. And I really took on the persona of a college student, even though I was struggling through my first engineering classes, but I saw the difference, you know, that? Patti Dobrowolski 06:49 Oh, I love that, so what you put on, gave you the confidence to do what you were doing? Like, put that on? Wow, I love that. Robin Fisher 06:59 Communicated that I was a student, you know, versus right. Oh, you know, hip girl coming out of Oakland, you know? Yep. And so that's when I really, you know, thought of back, you know, working alongside my grandmother, when some of the costume designers would come or the jazz musicians would come to her and they say, oh, you know, and this kind of look has this. And that kind of look has that. So when I looked around right after college, I was like, well, I could go into Silicon Valley and make twice as much as what I'm making. But I'm just married to this whole fashion thing, right? Yeah, I thought I was thinking, but I was like, what do the people that make the money look like? And so these people were very tailored, very, you know, had a great executive Hugo Boss, Hugo Boss, right. So I knew that I was not at that level. But I knew I wanted to send the message that I was headed that way. So I took my first paycheck, went and bought three suits from the limited you know, black, gray and navy, just how we used to do back in the days, right? Patti Dobrowolski 08:01 That's right. Did you have like that little flippy scarf thing that hung down on your shirt?I've always they always tried to get me to wear one of those. I'm like, I'm gay for that, sorry. Robin Fisher 08:18 Literally, I would break the suit up, I would never wear it together. So I wear the nice slacks with a nice top or the blazer with a nice pair of jeans. And so it really started sending the non verbal message that this girl is going places. And that in conjunction with my work, opportunity came open for an international trip that was going around the world, you know, starting in Asia, ending in Europe and back into New York. And I was chosen to go and. Patti Dobrowolski 08:44 Oh fantastic. Robin Fisher 08:46 Yeah, it was six months after I never since then I just took off. Patti Dobrowolski 08:49 That's fantastic. So how old were you when that opportunity happen? Robin Fisher 08:53 God, I think I was like 25 26 years old. I was relatively young. I know, I was the youngest person to ever go. But I just really always have taken myself really seriously. Yeah, and so. Patti Dobrowolski 09:08 Climb and all that those cotton things, obviously. I want to get to the top up there. So there you go. That's just a metaphor for you. You have it. All right. So then you're out there, you're doing this thing you're traveling, right? And then what happens? Robin Fisher 09:24 Well, you know, going global, I would say I never really had been a lot of places besides Denver, Seattle, where my dad lives in summer and holidays, and then Oakland and then you know, California. So seeing the world just really opened my eyes and I just wanted more, you know, and a world differently. And I just was like, Okay, what's next? And so one of the things I loved love loved production, but I wanted to know like, after I make this stuff, what do you guys do with it? How do you write me? And so my college sweetheart, who is now my husband was on the East Coast doing grad school. And so opportunity became available for me to go and be an executive buyer for my company. And when I thought about it overall, in terms of what I wanted for my long term goals in my career, I was like, Okay, this is perfect. So they relocated me out there. And then that's when I started the buying trend. And so it was, that was really fun, because literally the merchandise that I had produced I met in store. So yeah, I was very connected to the whole process, like, how is it gonna sell? How does it sell through? How do you mark it down? You know, and margins. And that was actually a really hard transition, because it was going into finance. But from there. Patti Dobrowolski 10:45 Yeah, because you really have to understand it end to end, right. So you have to understand it from a seller's market, right? So it's not just the buying, it's that what do you do with that aftermarket? And what happens to it? And then where do they make their profit in that? And how can you get the most profit, really, and you so you got to really understand the spreadsheet. Robin Fisher 11:06 That's what I tell people all the time, like, people were like, were you going to the fashion with someone like, Absolutely, but that was like, 10% of my job. And by the end of it, I didn't want to be there. I'd rather be in my office making sure that you know, because what comes down the runway is does not always be produced. But yet, it was a great experience. And it really gave me a 360 view in the fashion industry. And, you know, after I left that company, I had my first son married my husband, and then I went to another company, but this company was very specialized. And their thing was urban fashion. And so the first time I realized like, I'm not really into like the hip hop stuff, I had more of a classic personal taste. Patti Dobrowolski 11:53 Except for the jeans and the t shirt and the puffy coat that Eddie Bauer that's about as far as it went after that you were in the suits, right? Why? Robin Fisher 12:05 I always love suits. I always have had a classic even as a kid I wore Argyle, you know, best sweaters like, you know, that was just kind of like my aesthetic probably coming from my mom, but I loved it. Right? Yeah. But when I got to DC, I personally had issues with the dress code, because it was so white. And I was like, Oh my God, and they wrote me up, because I didn't wear collared shirts, you know? Patti Dobrowolski 12:30 Oh my God. Are you kidding? Oh my gosh. Robin Fisher 12:34 Let me tell you what I did, Patti. I flew into San Francisco went to the Haight Ashbury hit up probably about three or four of my favorite vintage stores got 70 Psychedelic shirts with collars. And I started popping them underneath my suit. And people were like, Oh my god. So that's where the concept of my concept of my company comes from, like, individual taste and individual style. Because once I started putting no I was fine. You know, the plain boring, you know. Patti Dobrowolski 13:03 Why not gonna happen? That's right. It's not gonna happen. fast enough. Robin Fisher 13:08 This, aren't we exactly. So weird and bizarre. Patti Dobrowolski 13:12 And I think that really I remember this going into my first job, right? The first time I went into a consulting thing, I thought I had to wear a three piece suit. Let me just say I bought a skirt. Okay, that's me buying a skirt that I hadn't worn one in years. Skirt, heels, top and then that shirt collared shirt, you know, but a plain shirt. And let me just say it was a huge flop. I was so uncomfortable that at the end of the day, I just took that suit and I took it right to, you know, resale place and I'm like, I am never wearing that suit again. Again. No, it's not me. You know, I have to be myself. Right? Important, right? It's so it is because your confidence comes from you feeling comfortable in your skin, right? Even if you got a Hugo Boss suit on, you got to know that it really represents you, whatever it is. Alright, so then how did you get from there into dressing people? Really? That's not the right way of saying it. Of course you've given that a look. And. Robin Fisher 14:10 Yeah, well, honestly, through my whole career, and my whole life, I've had to reposition myself and I've always done that through hair, makeup and clothes. I've always done that. So, you know, as a teenager, I was really insecure. I was blessed to go into very great schools for academics, but these girls had a lot of resources because they were private schools. I was on scholarships there you know. Yeah. And I just hated the feeling of feeling inadequate. I hated the feeling of people thinking that they were better than me or me mentally forget them me mins. Yeah, right. The way that I was able to combat that was by staying in the lines of the Walgreens or CVS and the makeup and the you know, just getting myself together and so I'm a process because in the fashion industry, you know, especially when you're walking the streets in New York, and you know, all these different shows, people are looking you up and down to see if you look the part all the time. And that was something that just comes with my industry. And I'm just like, Hell, if they're going to look me up and down, let me give them something to look at. Patti Dobrowolski 15:19 Exactly, exactly. Robin Fisher 15:20 Right. Because a lot of things that don't have to be said, if you walk in and look in a certain kind of way, you know, and so I developed a process like, you know, as women, we come on done all the time, you know, for different various different types of reasons. And I realized that I had a process of getting myself back on track every single time. Yes. And when I was at the last company I was at I wasn't treated very well, I was waiting to move back into San Francisco. So I took a job, which I thought would be temporary, but my husband did not want to leave the East Coast. And so we ended up getting pregnant with a set of twins. Patti Dobrowolski 16:01 Oh, wow. Well, that's a full time job right there. Robin Fisher 16:05 And I probably been ready. I've always had an entrepreneurial spirit. It comes from the beauty of my family. But I had probably been ready to start my own thing for about three, four years, but I just wasn't listening. You know what I mean? I just wasn't, my focus was to get me and my kid and my husband back to San Francisco. And then I go work for one of the companies there. And I had communities lined up, and I was just waiting and biding my time. But I didn't work out, you know, once you get a set of twins. Patti Dobrowolski 16:36 Oh, yeah, you got to be near family to help with them. You gotta. Yeah, it's crazy. Well, Robin Fisher 16:42 We actually stayed on the East Coast. Patti Dobrowolski 16:45 Oh, did you wow, okay crazy. Robin Fisher 16:47 Post about the family support. But you know, I had a bad situation in the office one day, and I was only probably about eight or nine weeks pregnant with my twins. I'm a twin too. So it was a total shock to me that I was having twins. I was older. And literally, I was in risk of losing them. Patti Dobrowolski 17:06 Yes. Robin Fisher 17:07 I just made that decision at that very moment that no job is worth losing your kids over? Well, first of all my integrity. Patti Dobrowolski 17:17 Right. Robin Fisher 17:18 Secondly, just the respect. And I knew the power that I had at that company. I knew tribution. And it was a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 17:27 Yeah. Robin Fisher 17:28 And I was just like, No. And then when I piled on the fact that I had been under that kind of pressure. Patti Dobrowolski 17:34 That's what I'm thinking. Robin Fisher 17:35 I period of time. And now I have kids and the kids, for me was where I was like, Absolutely not get your stuff together, get your stuff, y'all out here and don't ever come back. And so yeah, I walked off. And it was very. Patti Dobrowolski 17:52 I bet that was scary. Robin Fisher 17:54 It was very scary, because my husband was newly out of grad school. Like I said, we did not have the family support here. But it was definitely me choosing myself over a job for most, even though I love the industry. And I actually love the work that I did at the company, because it was very successful. You know, most of the people there were amazing. But it was one of those things that that's what I said, you know, you got to feed yourself, you're gonna have to yourself, because Washington DC is not a fashion town at all. Opportunities here are very far and wide in between. And I felt like if I did take another opportunity, and they were presented to me, but in this region that I would just be setting myself up to go back down the same road. Patti Dobrowolski 18:39 Yeah. And what I love about what you're saying is one and this for me is key. You know, you're in a circumstance where you're not treated well, people don't respect you. It's wrong. It's just wrong. And you realize the stress, you've got these twins, and it's stressful. And that's why I said that about you know, because of the kids. I mean, because of the stress, why you can't put your body under stress and expect to have those kids feel that they feel that you know, and you don't want to birth a couple of kids who have issues because you were under stress when you were pregnant, right? And what I love about it is that you totally took it and you're like no matter what, I'm going to have to do this myself, I'm going to have to feed myself, it's going to happen. And I think that is like a huge leap that you took with your husband just out of graduate school or in graduate school. You know, I mean, that's a big leap out into the middle of nothing, right? Yeah. What did you do to get yourself to land? Robin Fisher 19:40 Well, to be honest with you, I got really depressed because everything I felt like I had worked for in my life and what saved me from myself as a young young woman, I felt was like over you know, what was I going to do? I had always played with different business things and you know in the fashion space designing jewelry selling handbags at one time. Patti Dobrowolski 20:04 Yeah, yeah. Robin Fisher 20:04 Different stuff. But it was nothing that I just said, If my husband was making it where I could have been a stay at home mom, I tried that junk with my first son and Jesus. No, I just like. Patti Dobrowolski 20:17 I need to have my own thing. I can't stay here with you. Robin Fisher 20:22 Yeah, I tried. I tried. I did. Actually I did. I wasn't saying, what I just started this, on the side where I had my little business, you know, to take care of. And oh, literally, I think once I finally got over just the depression of it all, and just how everything had happened, and really started to think about my power and my position. And what I was able to do realistically with three children, while also you know, making sure that I was filling my soul, one of the things I always loved are beautiful women, I could sit on a bench in Paris, London, a park in Oakland, or Berkeley, you know, hiking, I love to see women pulled together and looking amazing. Regardless, if they're coming down the aisle at Target, they're picking up their kids from school. Patti Dobrowolski 21:16 Yeah. Robin Fisher 21:16 We're working, you know, at a corporate office. And that's actually where it started, because my mom was an executive in San Francisco. And my grandmother used to pick her up, and I would just sit there, you know, at the window, like a little girl and just watch all the very nice dressed women and men walked by. And so I was like, You know what, I have a whole process about how I reinvent myself, or recreate myself, and I understand often. And I also had done a lot of research, you know, through the years about style and stuff like that. And I was like, I need to turn it into something. Patti Dobrowolski 21:52 Yeah. Robin Fisher 21:53 So I sat down six months pregnant with my twins, and I wrote my business plan, and I decided to go back and finish get my masters. And so as soon as they were born, I enrolled in school, I started, you know, putting the pieces together creatively. And when they were probably about one years old, I've completed my master's, I went to London, right before I completed my master's and train with one of the world's best image consultants ever, because I knew I needed a high level. Patti Dobrowolski 22:23 Yes. Robin Fisher 22:24 Serious level, and she was amazing. But then I still needed to turn that into my own. You know what I mean? Patti Dobrowolski 22:30 Yes, yes, of course, because you get a mentor, but they give you their perspective on things. And you then have to shape that for what it is. That's your thing, your niche, whatever it is, right. Robin Fisher 22:42 Absolutely. Patti Dobrowolski 22:43 That's fantastic. Robin Fisher 22:44 Yeah. And so in the night because I was there I think for two weeks, and my twin brother and my mom came in watch my kids for me. You know, during the day, I would train and in the evenings, I would write my thesis. And so when I came back, I submitted that thing. I graduated and launched Polished the same month, December 2008. Patti Dobrowolski 23:05 Yeah, I love that Polished is a perfect name for your business, because that's really what you're doing. You're helping people to get their Polish going on. So tell me then how'd you get your first client? What was that like for you? Robin Fisher 23:20 Oh my god. So like I said, I believe when you can't get it together, you go down to the bare bones and I again, a little bit over 100 pounds pregnant with my twins. The budget was definitely not the same without that income. And so I had gone to like, you know, I think targeted and shopping Macy's and I had put together this little capsule of a wardrobe and literally I was wearing a uniform once again similar. Patti Dobrowolski 23:48 Yeah. Robin Fisher 23:48 Wore back like in my old company. Patti Dobrowolski 23:49 Your new uniform, your Polished uniform. Robin Fisher 23:53 Very similar to what I have on. Patti Dobrowolski 23:55 There you go, there you go. Robin Fisher 23:57 Nurse these guys. And so I was walking through our flagship mall here, which was Pentagon City and I have my twins with me. And this woman stopped me because I was there all the time. I hadn't really you know made any traction yet and she stopped me she goes I see you all the time and you always look so well put together. And I'm a mess. I have a set of twins and you know how do you do it? And I started laughing I said well actually is a concept based on basics. And she said basics and so I said well actually an executive image consultant personal stylist I just launched a business you know here's a card, call me. Well she did and she. Patti Dobrowolski 24:36 Oh yay. Robin Fisher 24:38 You know be owning executive coaching firm here. Patti Dobrowolski 24:42 Fantastic. Robin Fisher 24:44 Oh, it just took off. Patti Dobrowolski 24:44 Oh my god. Oh, I bet I bet and then did like at the very beginning. How did you figure out your pricing and things like that those real basic things like did you start off low and then eventually just bare self up? Robin Fisher 24:57 Yes. absolutely. And I'll be be honest with you, my goal wasn't, you know, to make a ton of money. My goal was to give myself some business. And then also to pay my student loans myself, I did not want to ask my husband to help pay for my student loans. That was my independence. Okay. Patti Dobrowolski 25:15 Yeah, yeah. Robin Fisher 25:16 So literally Polish would generate them. But then after a year, it just started growing and growing and growing and growing. And I was like, Oh, my God, I don't even know where to do with my kids. Like, you know what I mean, like I was booking people in the evening hours and on the weekends when my husband can watch them. So Polished was really grown alongside the development of my children as well. Now, that is what honestly, the best part about my company is because they were there, when I was signing up for the LLC in the business office. I'm like, bottles and pushing the stroller. Patti Dobrowolski 25:50 I love it. I love this. This is really, really the life of a working mom. I mean, this is what's true, is that I love that they were there everywhere, because you were there everywhere with your mom and your grandma. And this is really what we, you know, the myth is that there's some other place that they should go. But honestly, the best way you learn about things is by watching and observing and seeing how other people are. And then you figure out, Oh, who am I within the world of that? Robin Fisher 26:17 Right. Patti Dobrowolski 26:17 And so I love that. So now, what's your favorite thing about what you do right now? Robin Fisher 26:23 You know, my favorite thing that I do right now is just work with women where they are, you know, women transition all the time, and they're always going through things. And sometimes it's like, this can be overwhelming. It's not sometimes this overwhelmed a lot of women, and I'm like, I can teach you to take, you know, everything that you need to know about yourself, when it comes to this fashion environment. Because you don't have to be an expert in everything, you know, and we fall apart. You know, like, four years ago, I was diagnosed with colon cancer. Patti Dobrowolski 26:56 Oh my god. Robin Fisher 26:57 One of the things that I feel so blessed about is that my company kept going, even when I wasn't taking new clients at times, I wasn't promoting my business, there were a lot of things, I just did not have the, you know, energy to do, because of what I was going through, but the brand of Polished and the power of Polished and what it does, kept my business moving till I got well, and then you know, I was able to pick it up again, which is my opinion, the whole essence of what Polished is about. So when I work with women that are going through those kinds of things, you know, illness or promotions, or maybe they're retiring, maybe they've done a regional move, maybe they're getting a divorce, maybe they're in a new relationship, you know, those are the kind of things that really make me extremely happy. I've always had a huge respect, especially coming out of the San Francisco Bay Area for culture. And so the fact that I attract international clientele makes me extremely happy. So I'd say everything, everything. Patti Dobrowolski 28:03 That's, that's fantastic. Well, congratulations for coming through colon cancer. And I hope you're, you know, just doing well now, and I just send that send that energy your way. But here's what I love about what is very unique about you, is that you actually are most interested in the point of pivot, you're interested in creating the new persona that you are through your look and feel. Robin Fisher 28:29 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 28:29 Helping you understand, here's the base and the basics of what you need to know about you. And then let's build on that based on who you've emerged and have become, is that right? Robin Fisher 28:40 Yes. Patti Dobrowolski 28:41 So then give some of our listeners a tip about the basics. Is there any kind of tip that you would give them that would just help them as they're going into their closet before they call you on the phone to get you to help them? You know, is there any simple thing that you would give them that would be helpful? Robin Fisher 28:59 Sure. So a lot of people when they think about fashion and style, they think about things, but all the bells and whistles, they really forget about the stuff just like this quick little shirt I throw on to jump on here that pull outfits together, that pull looks together. And so I want to scream that from the rooftop because there's so many times that I've looked at in a woman's wardrobe and all I'm looking for is a simple black pair of slacks, no bells and whistles, no details, or all I'm looking for is a simple blazer, or a simple collared shirt like similar to this and they're just not there. And so they get themselves in a bind because literally they'll have all these fashion items that they picked up that they just love but they have nothing to anchor them to. Patti Dobrowolski 29:44 Yeah. Robin Fisher 29:45 And so that is the one thing I would say is like check your closet, make sure based on how you're functioning so if you're a person that is working from home right now you need you know, abundance of maybe comfortable pants, right. But those comfortable pants, make sure that some of them are clean. So when you put on a fashion shirt, you just put those comfortable pants on, and you're good to go. You know what I mean? Patti Dobrowolski 30:11 Well, and for me, it's like, it's not just comfortable pants, can I wear them in public so that I can actually go out, you know, into the world and not have to change out of my sweatpants, right? So there's something like that, I have that. So it's something really, that will anchor you you said, anchor you, and then what? Robin Fisher 30:30 And then you add on the fashion, you know, and that's when I build capsule wardrobes for clients. The first thing that I invested in is finding out what their personal taste level is, you know, I'm 33%, classic, 33%, natural and 33% updated, okay, so I'm always going to have some kind of classic kind of tailoring on but you'll see that I also will play with trends, but it will only be up to 33%. If I go over that, it's just like to costuming for me. Patti Dobrowolski 31:01 I love that now, I want you to pay attention to can you see the pull through of the engineer of her that build into that percentage thing. That's what I'm listening for him, like, She's totally an engineer, she's engineered this piece of your fashion, so that you can create the closet that you need to have so that you can go in there anytime and pull together the things that and I bet everybody has different percentages. Would you say? Robin Fisher 31:26 Yeah, buddy, like I run a six week program. Okay, we're literally I help women, you know, develop their individual style and wardrobe to match within that six week program. And I can tell you that there's women there from all over the country, you know, even internationally, and literally, they're never the same. It's very rare, you know, because I it's a very intimate group. So I only take up to 10 people. Patti Dobrowolski 31:51 That's fantastic. Is this online, that you do it? Okay. So if you're listening, and you wonder, like, How can this happen for me, you want to be one of those 10 that get into that, I would say that individualized experience so that you could learn, you can learn and you can listen to what she does with other people. Oh, my God, I'm getting in that that's all there is to it. I love that. Robin Fisher 32:16 You know, I work with women one on one too. Okay, yeah, that's a faster process. Patti Dobrowolski 32:22 If they fly you to Paris, and you want to do that, or Vienna, you're okay with that, you'll be fine with that go wherever it is. Robin Fisher 32:30 You know, what I learned is I just respect differences. And people learn different. So someone can learn everything within their consultation and me pulling together their capsule, and they're like, okay, but then there's other women that they learn by doing. They learn by, you know, asking questions. And so that's why I developed the six week program, just to help them because what I basically do for all of my clients, whether it's one on one, or whether it's in a group program is I teach them what I know. But for them, okay, so they begin to own style editor. And to me, that's where the power comes from. That's where the confidence comes from. Because once you understand your personal taste level, your fashion rules, your body type, all those kinds of things gel together, then the confidence comes with, I'm killing it, because I know I am but you are talking about it's because this is my personal taste level. This is how I do it. So you know. Patti Dobrowolski 33:27 Whatever, get with it. Yeah. That's right. I love that. So when you think about the vision of the future for you, what's that look like for your business for where you're going? What do you want to be known for? What do you want to do that you haven't stepped into yet? Do you want to expand into? Robin Fisher 33:47 Yeah, well, to be honest with you, I'm working on that. Now. I want to touch as many women as I can. I think life is, you know, I have a different view of life just based on what I've gone through, especially in the last five years, where it's too short to feel insecure and not attractive, you know, full of joy, you know what I mean? And if and your appearance is what is holding you back, girl, I got you okay, yeah, you know, come on, I can we can fix this up real quick, and I can let unleash you to the world with your power, you know what I mean? So that is honestly what makes me happy. And when I was ill, I really had to do some deep soul searching. And honestly, every single time I thought about what do you want to do with the rest of your life? If you're blessed to you know, beat Patti Dobrowolski 34:35 Yes. Robin Fisher 34:35 And it was the same thing. It was the same thing. That's what I want to be known for. I want to be known for the woman that helped me get my stuff together and taught me a process that I can always keep myself together. Even when I fall apart. I can put it back together, you know, and you know, just broadening my reach because honestly, I've been in the DMV, I've been a mom so I never really focused on my reach out. I was blessed to work with a lot of international people, you know, diplomats, and you're on business just based on the region that I'm in. Patti Dobrowolski 35:08 Yep. Robin Fisher 35:08 Also my specialty, I was very attractive to them. So but I never really expanded my reach until COVID. When COVID happened, that's when I decided, like, you know, I prayed about I was like, oh, Lord, you know, with my disorder, we just in my mind, it's just not going to be safe, even they won't know, what am I going to do? And I really considered, you know, just that's it, you know, just from my head. Yeah. But I thought thought it through and talked it through, you know, with my advisers, like my family, my mom, you know, my aunts are great advisors. And finally, what I had been doing digital work for a very long time, because a lot of my diplomats would get deployed. And a lot of the people that would work with me domestically would ended up going back to their home countries, and they want to keep working with me. So I actually had the whole processes already. Patti Dobrolski 36:01 Ready in the digital space. Yeah. So I think, you know, we underestimate, I mean, me, too, I was alive illustrator. So I was often a speaker and an illustrator live and in person. And when it pivoted, I had just started doing online classes just before that, and everything, of course, became online and still is. And so when I get called to go places that real and in person, I'm like, really? Are you sure that you can't do it? Are you really gonna all get together? COVID is still really high. Because I still want to wear my, you know, comfortable bottoms instead of like, put on my suit, right. And so I love that, that you were able to easily transition into that, Oh, my God, I could ask you so many questions, I have to save it for the next time I talk to you because I want to come and do that course with you. Because I think that would be fantastic. And if you're listening, you want to look in the show notes here and get involved, I want you to really carefully look at where she is in Instagram. Because Polished is something you need, you definitely need to do this and this piece that we're in a time of pivot. So you have to understand that if you're not aligning what you look like with who you are inside, you're doing a disservice to the people to showing your full self I think and that's what you're talking about. So all right, I just want one last question I want to ask you before I gotta let you go, cuz I know you have a hard stop. So what is your day look like? Tell me from the moment you get up until what happens in your day. And you know, just give me the brief overview. But people love to get inside your world. So how do you prepare yourself in the world do you have any daily practice you do and things that help you to bring your full self into the world? Robin Fisher 37:46 Sure. So you know, I wake up relatively early, I like to be up before my twins, my oldest son is away at school, so I don't really have to worry about him. But I do a lot of meditation in the morning, just you know, focusing on my day, and just checking in with myself. And then about seven o'clock, my twins rise, we you know, do the whole morning routine, I drive them to school. And by 10 o'clock, I'm fully dressed and you know, usually working on Zoom, if not taking calls, meetings, doing marketing and stuff like that. So that goes through my day until about maybe about three o'clock and then I will go pick them up, then I'll come back. And then I'm usually working with clients in the evening time. So sometimes I'll be working with clients, but there's a window at 12 one at two and then one at five. So I only take because this is such a creative process. I only take about four clients a week. Patti Dobrowolski 38:43 I bet. Robin Fisher 38:43 And the reason why is because I'm a creative person, I want to zero in and focus on them. So I take them during the latter part of the week. Once the merchandise is you know up on the systems that you know that people have received so I can really give them the best assortments available the consultation, you know, I've had time to really go in and deep dive and study them yet so forth. So my typical week, I probably shut down at around 10 o'clock. I'm trying to get better about not working past a certain time. But yeah, honestly, it doesn't feel like work to me, and none of my jobs except for the bad. You know, treatment. Yeah, no, I've never made a single dime. I don't think even outside of the fashion industry. I don't think of it as work. Patti Dobrowolski 39:32 That's fantastic. Robin Fisher 39:34 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 39:34 I love that. Robin Fisher 39:35 Work as work at all. And you know, I've been doing this for 30 years, you know, over 30 years now. Patti Dobrowolski 39:43 Yeah, I love that. Well, you are incredible. I just love everything you've said today, Robin and I just want to say thank you so much for spending time with us. Listeners, just really pay attention to the show notes. Take some of these tips to heart and really upgrade what you're doing You know, so that you can get your capsule together because I want my capsule together. So it matches my brand and everything. So thank you for spending time with us and we will look forward to seeing you again because I'm having you back on the show so that you can tell us more about what we need to do to get it together. Alright everybody, let's give a big round of applause. Robin, thanks so much for coming on. And thank you everybody for listening. If you like what you're hearing, you know, be sure to forward it to your friends because we want all of you to be learning some of these great tips. And until next time Up Your Creative Genius. I mean it Robin, thank you. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the up your creative genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Ram Castillo is a Design Director, two-time Author, Speaker, CreativeLive Instructor, Decision-making Business Coach and Approved Advisor based in Sydney. His focus is to help business owners, entrepreneurs and leaders get unstuck through human centred design methodologies, creative strategy, digital marketing and branding. For 16 years Ram has been working for global agencies including Ogilvy & Mather, DDB, JWT, McCann. He was most recently the Head of Digital Design for Saatchi & Saatchi and has serviced clients including Audi, McDonald's, Qantas, Google, AMEX, Toyota and The Louis Vuitton Group. He's been featured in Apple, GE, Communication Arts, HOW magazine, CreativeLive, Herman Miller, VIVID festival and The American Institute of Design.  For more visit RamCastillo.com https://ramcastillo.com/  Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Timestamps 2:02 Why Ram Castillo is a big deal, and how he came to be this way 4:40 On leveraging a tool like Clubhouse 7:31 The most important step of the design thinking process 8:02 You already have the most important marketing tool: your brand 12:13 Finding your competitive advantage 15:27 Defining your version of success 18:03 The true definition of wealth 20:13 Overcoming obstacles on the way to success 23:28 The value of planting many seeds 25:16 The alchemy of creativity and transformation 33:36 The secret formula to success 37:15 How to design a purpose 38:46 Ram's current fascination with convenience vs. delayed gratification 41:18 The opportunity right in front of us all 43:22 Ram's decision-making framework Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast where you will gain insight and tips just stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius, oh, god, my head is like exploding because I have RAM Castillo here. You are not going to believe what an amazing Rockstar he is like, this guy is a design director, he's a two-time author. He's a speaker. You know, he teaches an instructor and Creative Live. He's the decision making business coach. And he's worked with some of the biggest brands, some of your favorite brands, let's just say, you know, Louis Vuitton and Herman Miller, and Ogilvy and Mather, and DDB and Toyota and it goes on and on. And not just that, but he has his own podcast, which I am so grateful that you're here because you're up to number 88 in your podcast, and you have interviewed some big names Kelly Slater, right. Naomi Simpson, Kevin O'Leary, these people, and the interviews are spectacular. And what you really do is help designers who are tuning in --this is my understanding of it --tuning in to help them step into the future they desire. So this is where we aligned we met on Clubhouse. Ram. Thank you so much for being here. Ram Castillo 01:51 Patti, what an introduction. I'm deeply honored to be here. Thank you so much. Patti Dobrowolski 01:56 You're just so incredible. So just Whoa. So tell me like, What are you doing right now, first, tell people from your perspective, what you do right now, and then roll me back in time to how you got to where you are right now. So whichever way you want to start, if you want to start in the past, you want to start in the present and go to the past. I'd love it either way, our listeners are going to want to know all they're gonna want to get inside your world right now. Ram Castillo 02:27 Oh, okay. So the short answer is right now I am building my advisory board portfolio. And what that means is I am doing a bit of coaching, a bit of consulting, but advisory it sits in this mix of giving advice to business owners, entrepreneurs, organizations and leaders in the specialty that I've been able to accumulate over that last 16 year career in the world of marketing, communications, creative strategy, and most importantly, human centered design. Yeah. And that's the short answer because I climbed up that world of starting at Ogilvy, which is traditional advertising. That's right my way through other agencies, all the way up to head of digital design at Saatchi and Saatchi servicing AMEX, Qantas, Toyota building teams. And when you go through that path, you're exposed to processes, people, tools, systems, and just the different ways that businesses need to operate in terms of capability in delivering their promise to customers and designing a customer experience that is meaningful, that is actually valuable. So taking all that enterprise learning and helping small to medium sized business owners through advisory sessions and workshops. That's what I'm doing right now. Patti Dobrowolski 03:57 That's fantastic. And I think that entrepreneurs, they don't really have a sense of that, what it requires of you, but what we're talking about are the long hours. And the access to creative ideas which you are famous for. I mean, you've been written up for some of the ideas you came up with or your team came up with. It's just incredible. And I have a feeling that your paths cross with my nephew, Jon Dobowolski, because he worked at Toyota at some of these places. And now he works at Grail, right? And so he's head of design there. So I love that you're doing this in this space, where you're sharing and you're pouring into other people your wisdom. Now I met you on Clubhouse because you were in a room that I was in, and maybe I was in with Pete Cohen and I'm not sure but tell me what are you doing on Clubhouse and are you there running any of your own rooms because you're so incredible. I would be surprised if you weren't. Ram Castillo 04:56 So we did meet on Clubhouse by Pete Cohen. He he and I met on there as well. And then he heard me speak about the importance of personal branding and positioning yourself, hence the duck on his head. And so I have found that clubhouse is just a treasure chest, the ways that I've benefited have blown me away. We're talking right now it's mid November 2021. Buy started day one, mid January 2021. So we're talking 10 months or so ago. Patti Dobrowolski 05:33 Me too, same amount of time. Yes, And right around that time, it was just starting to blow up really, I mean, people would say it had blown up before. But it really at that beginning, people found out about it, Ram Castillo 05:47 I initially went on there just to test. So coming from a design background, it's important to never assume that's one of the key things, it's important to go through an understanding phase. And a lot of that is just testing and absorbing, and gathering information. So for the first three months, I was just gathering information, seeing how the tool works, how it could benefit myself and others. And what I quickly found was that there was the ability to get access number one to people that I would never be able to access. So you know, and you too Patti, right. So that's a stretch, you know, we would probably be able to access them in some way, but the speed of accessing them. The other thing is the relationship building and rapport building is more real in many ways, because you're just not influenced by any other factors such as, you know, seeing their face, you just get to hear their voice. And you get a real sensibility about them straightaway. So I've been able to invest in many deals, that part of the advisory is also looking at how I might be able to invest in companies. Should I wish to do that. So yeah, whatever you're looking for, you will be able to get there. Patti Dobrowolski 07:08 Yeah, I would totally agree. I mean, I just had the most amazing conversations, you know, that I don't think I would have ever probably met Rob Moore or even known who he was really John Lee, people like this, that are in there. And then also badass boss. I mean, I've been in rooms where people have just blown my mind to pieces, and just listening. And you know, what you're talking about is so you were seeking to understand, which is really a design thinking principle. So for listeners that aren't familiar with that whole process, but you really seek to understand what the experience is about and what customers are actually having in that experience. And it really is incredible now. So is that a place where you have been able to get some new clients from there? For example. Ram Castillo 07:58 Absolutely. So I'll swing the needle to this point, Patti, just to contextualize all this, the reality is that every one of us has a brand, we already have a brand that exists and how I define brand. And personal branding in particular is what people attach meaning to. It's your personality, your credibility, your reputation. And the thing that I love about Clubhouse is that you're able to close that gap of saying what you do and doing what you say. And in a world where trust is becoming harder and harder to build and trust is getting harder and harder to come by. Yes, Patti Dobrowolski 08:36 it's being eroded all the time, you know, any belief that there's good out there, you know, you have to really watch out. Right, Ram Castillo 08:43 Right. So like, you know, prior to Clubhouse, which is a social audio app, we've had on an immense amount of Instagram dominance, so to speak, where we're able to get to know this person that we follow that, you know, we might maybe aspire to, or we learn from or just simply are entertained by, but at the heart of it, where we weren't really able to dive deep into like this storytelling one on one and throw questions back at the person so easily. And, you know, having Clubhouse I've found that we're able to get to this important thing, which is the personal branding piece, that space that you occupy in the hearts and minds of people, your audience, relative to your competitors. And so when we're able to understand the space with which we have established some equity, and we can grow that equity, it can really help your business, your career progression, the future you want to design because until you're able to really pinpoint, you know, what is it that you're known for? What is it that you can build a found that to be liked enough to be trusted, then no matter if you're doing business or just building relationships, you don't have a compass. And so it's important to find, in my opinion, yeah, what is the thing that you're able to leverage and build equity with? And then strategically partner and pay the right people to help you get there? Patti Dobrowolski 10:27 Yes, yes, I love this, because it really does start with you. And when you can get a platform of some kind, I mean, that's what I tell people, you know, the only way that I ever became such a well known speaker was because I gave a TED talk. I totally nailed it. And it wasn't even on that platform where it blew up, it was on a bootleg platform, five years later, where somebody said it was the best of whatever, whatever year it was, and then 6 million people, right. And to me, that's the power of Clubhouse in one moment, you can say something that someone will hear, or you can do something. And this reminds me to of clubhouses. It really is about giving away what you know, to people, and then really giving it away. Like I give away sessions to people that I think, you know, if you just did a session with me for two hours, I think it would explode your business. And so I'm willing to do that, because I'm in a place where I've created the client base, such that I can give some things away. And I've also met some amazing clients there. And part of that I think you're talking about so you understand your brand and who you are, that builds then this line of trust, or this bridge of trust to a potential customer or even a person that's going to be your friend, right? And then you get to reap the benefit of meeting them. Ram Castillo 12:03 Yeah. And what we're really talking about here as well. And this is why I love you, Patti, and your podcast title especially, is because if you don't have the overlap, and this is one framework that I have created to find your competitive advantage. It's so simple. But it's two circles on a page overlapping over each other these circles on the left, it has the word appealing question mark. So what's appealing? Yes. And on the right, it's exclusive. Question mark. So what's exclusive, and until you find something appealing and exclusive enough, then you don't have a competitive advantage. Oh, my gosh, to have a competitive advantage. Otherwise, you can't compete in a market that's either being serviced, well, how are you going to compete? And this is why creativity is such an important differentiator. Patti Dobrowolski 12:53 And this creative genius part, right? That's what you're talking about. You're talking about its creativity, but it's also accessing your creative genius. And that is accessible to anybody. And that is, you know, the myth is that some people are creative. Rahm is creative, Patti's creative, but I'm not. And that's a myth. Because we're all born with our imagination. Ram Castillo 13:18 And here's the kicker to all of this, Patti, when I buy you or choose to follow you, wherever you're leading me? Yes, I'm subconsciously asking, What does that make me. So when I buy things, when I buy a Tesla, right, out of all the vehicles that I can buy to move me as a physical human, from A to B to C, I can buy any transportation vehicle, but I choose Tesla, because in the back of my mind, whether you admit it or not the person that has bought it also is pro tech, wants to make a statement that they are a supporter of other energy resource, in this case, something a bit more sustainable, like electricity, and is also wanting to have that title of I'm an innovative person. Yes. So when I buy you, I'm always asking, What does that make me because you're an extension of my worldview? Patti Dobrowolski 14:20 Yes. So when you think about that, like, to me, this is like how the universe works, right? When we think about that, we're a big energy field out there. And you think about all of the little sparks of light that are all of us. The way that you spark your spark and magnetize people who are like you is by being your true and authentic self, and finding what it is that you offer that nobody else offers. And that's really, all it takes for you to build your brand is you have to know that and then you have to help people in some way. Just add the help element Which that for you seems like a big piece of it. Like I watched a bunch of your talks, you know, and you're so generous in how you are onstage. You really are a great speaker. And you're funny, and people just love coming up to you. You can just feel it right. It's great. And it's powerful. But what is it that you feel in your world that you're here to do? What are you here to do? What's your purpose right now? Ram Castillo 15:27 So my why has always been in currently still serves me well as leading with generosity and following with care. And the reason why I say that Patti is because when I asked this definition of what my version of success is, I still arrive at this answer, which is Success to me is how well I go to sleep at night. Because I've had a little, and I've had a lot, and I'll loot this into some tangibility. But I've had a little and I've had a lot, I've had everything in between. You know, granted, I'm Filipino immigrant. My mom is one of five. Her dad wasn't really ever around her mom, my grandmother had to have a little corner store and then have a sewing machine just to raise five kids, my dad's one of 11. Now, his father passed away when he was only three. So he grew up without a father of majority his life. And then his mom passed away when he was at uni. And he graduated marine transportation, mechanical engineering, just to get out as with Filipinos back back in the day, especially get to Australia. And those two degrees at a top university were not recognized, of course. And so he raises three kids, I'm in the middle. And I have this worldview of going hmm, I could have lived that life, a life where they only had a tablespoon of peanut butter and a bit of bread to share. For the day. Often, my mum got so thirsty that she, at six years old job in the cupboard, swallowed a bottle of soy sauce, and now she's traumatized. She didn't know soy sauce, you know. So there are these things here and in place, where we go back now to your original question, you know, about what is my big why, what is my purpose? What is the thing for me? I didn't know it would look like going on two global speaking tours. Yeah, you know, writing two books, starting top ranking podcasts. And connecting with so many people I didn't know would look like that. Because I didn't Patti Dobrowolski 17:24 have well, you didn't have that view of what was possible, really Ram Castillo 17:29 100%. But at the heart of it, I knew that -- and this might not be the intrinsic motivation of most people. I don't know, I can only speak for myself. But deep down, I knew that I felt joy and at peace. And I recently did a talk about two talks, one was called "Don't aim to make a million dollars, aim to help a million people". And that the irony is the money will come. The other talk I did recently, which lands this point around what we're talking about here is that being wealthy doesn't necessarily mean being rich, that being wealthy is about overcoming obstacles, and they're the treasures that you get, you get another coin of resilience, you get another coin of humility, you get another coin of persistence, you get another coin of work ethic and respect and whatever it is that you gain. So Patti Dobrowolski 18:29 and love, and trust Ram Castillo 18:32 Yes. 100%. So for me, it's not it's less about going. I'm all about goals as well, I think, Patti Dobrowolski 18:39 of course, of course, because you're really you're all about making good decisions, good business decisions that are good for your business in the long run. Right. So yeah, so but I love it, you're talking about the journey, and the collection of the coins that you get that the challenges that you face, right or that your parents face, or my parents or grandparents face the you know, my grandmother was an immigrant my father was poor growing up in Chicago, both my mother and father's parents, you know, fathers died when they were seven. That was interesting to experience for them. And then for me to go become a therapist and then have to interview them about that and think about, oh, what was the transmission of Pathology at age seven for me right when they were, but I think that this collection of coins is underrated. It's underrated by most people because they see coin and wealth as how much you have in your bank account or what your capacity is. But it is in the moments where you're truly yourself up against the hardest things and that you pushing through it like you did and that the genetic encoding in your genes your family. They did that I think This forward into a future that we desire more than money, and more than fame, and more than all those things. So I love that you're saying this now, you must have hit some really big challenges in your career and in your life, what kinds of things did you have to come up against in yourself? You came from that kind of a background. So you know, that can make for a very small voice in a room full of very loud people sometimes, right? Ram Castillo 20:32 Absolutely. So few key obstacles that have really shaped how I have gone about life. In primary school, I was bullied quite badly, I had my arm broken three times and got 16 stitches. before the age of 11. I was the shortest kid in school. Never the most athletic, never the most wealthy. As I said, in terms of financial wealth, I was never the most intelligent, I was always. So very, very average. And all below, I was only great at art, funnily enough. And I remember my mum cooking spaghetti in our small apartment. I was about four years old, I would collect empty tissue boxes, toilet paper rolls, and I'd make stuff we obviously didn't have devices back then. And she said, What do you want to be when you grow up? And then I go out, and I'm, I just want to make stuff. Yeah. And then she put her hand on my shoulder, and she's still cooking. She said, Well, remember whatever you want to be, make sure you dream big. Make sure you dream much, much bigger. So although I had these obstacles, she gave me permission to just go for it. You know, there's no, I love that TED Talk by Ken Robinson. And yes, bit in his mother passed away at age 70. Last year, of course. But there was this one bit where he said that there was a girl, she was six years old. She was always very unattentive. She didn't have concentration. One time she did in drawing class and the teacher came up said, Hey, what are you drawing? And she said, I'm drawing a picture of God. And then the teacher said, wow, that's not possible. No one knows what God looks like. And then the child said, well they will in a minute? Yeah, exactly. And the point was that they weren't afraid to try as children, we weren't frightened to try to just give it a go. And so my mum instilled that in me at a young age. So despite the obstacles, and I wasn't a formally trained writer, I was able to write two books, even in my first book, when I went to 20 different publishers, and sponsors, and I tried to get funding for something. And then eventually, I was like, well work another job and self fund it yourself. Yes. Yeah. Get it out. Exactly. I did that. And American Institute of Design in the States were like, wow, you know, you're doing great things. Why don't we host you we've got 72 chapters will host your first speaking tour. In front of crowds before, I'd never done that. I just throw myself to plant many seeds, not knowing which will blossom. But sometimes it's a numbers game to Patti, I get people in finishing university and college. And then they're like, man, it's been four months. I haven't gotten a job. I've finished my degree. And I was like, how many emails have you sent out? How many people have you reached out to how many messages have they like, all like, I sent out like, 15 emails? I'm like 15 emails? I, like I said, 300 emails in the first week. And I was actually in the mailroom. Patti Dobrowolski 23:25 Yeah, exactly. I was thinking, you know, one of my first interviews was Jonathan Javier. And he tells people what he did on LinkedIn, you know, he would send out hundreds of emails and notes to people in LinkedIn every week, until he was able to get the connections that he did. And then he posts these pictures from where, and he just is amazing, right, but it takes this grit and courage and persistence. You know, I think probably I wanted to be a keynote speaker long before I mean, I never dreamed I would be on Broadway, I never dreamed that I would be a keynote speaker for, you know, on a stage of 4000 people that just, you know, the thought that that would be part of my reality. I didn't even know. Future Me was way ahead of me. And I was way back in the past in this limited sphere of can somebody call me right now. And then I'll just go and do it for a couple $100. You know, but this is where you start. And then you learned through doing and working and doing, I don't know about you, but I'm all about 500%. If I can do give you 500% of what you've asked for, then you kind of want to have me back, no doubt, or you're going to say something about that to somebody else. And I think there's something about you know, really and I think this is true for you like when I look at all the big brands that you've worked with. You know, you started out in advertising and we know what a grind that is that is a grind, right? And then you've gotten to this place now where you're ready expert in brand and so many other things. So what other things? Are you fascinated by now? And what are you looking for in your own career and also out there in the horizon to see if you can't tap into it? Ram Castillo 25:14 So here's the thing, everything that we've spoken about here, Patti, has kind of tied back to that theme about creativity, and wealth and designing the future that you want. It is only as successful as how many internal treasures that were looking to acquire, and to turn that into external change. And so we need to Patti Dobrowolski 25:42 say more about that, get that unpack that for people. So you're saying something very deep there. I want everybody who's listening to get this, the internal treasures to impact transforming Ram Castillo 25:53 that. Yeah. And turning that into impact. External change is one of that version, right? Acquiring internal treasures for external change. Because we need to look at back to the coin analogy. Yes, we need to look at that as a point of difference. We need to look at what's creativity, creativity, is putting something that's different and new. And something that requires new means that we need to look at testing, exploring, trying stuff. Yep. And you get this weird, strange, but interesting combination. And that's you. Yeah, that's, you know, one's walked your steps. Yeah, was grown up the same with the same parents mixed with this education mixed with this life experience. ABCD? Yeah, it's a combination that's unique to you. There's already Anthony Robbins, and Oprah Winfrey Brene. Brown and Marie Forleo, or Gary Vaynerchuk. There's already so many Yes, them, but we don't have one of you. Right. And this is what happens. It's not just about believing for belief sake. And so now, I look at it as being very popular to a few, right in whatever you're doing means accepting that we're going to be very unpopular to the other end. And we're going to be very neutral to the majority. And this is why I think people are not pursuing the fullness of their gifts, and then going down the truth. The rabbit hole is because they're trying to please everyone. Yes. Patti Dobrowolski 27:41 Oh, my gosh, this is a best marketing tip you could give to anybody. Right now, this is it. Because there are people that will throw shade, and you can't please them, no matter what you do, it's not going to happen. And then there are people who don't really care. They're living their life, just on this flatline way, no harm, no foul. But then there are a few people who are really expansive, and they're expanding what they're doing into places that they are afraid and maybe scared, and they're not sure what to do. But they know they're excited, and they're passionate about life. And they understand that life is about experience. It's not just about product, but it's about experience. Right? Ram Castillo 28:30 I'm going to give you one really interesting example. Real quick story. We're in the pandemic. Of course, we're still in that. I used to go to the gym a lot. I switched to an outdoor sport that I've never tried called tennis. Okay, I'm in my mid Patti Dobrowolski 28:45 year, I was gonna say you're not gonna say pickleball Are you? That's gonna scare me. Okay, good. tennis. Ram Castillo 28:52 Tennis, right. And so I'm in Sydney and we got lost on a lot of tennis courts, right, a big tennis community here, but I'm new. Definitely. I sign up mid last year. So in June, July 2020. I pick up a racket for the first time in my mid 30s. Okay, so I'm learning tennis. I started documenting videos, I posted some YouTube videos, this and that. This coach here in Sydney that finds these videos. He's got a Spanish accent. He ends up DMing me and he goes, Wow, I saw your test videos. I'd love to learn about entrepreneurship and design and digital media, the whole thing. I go, Well, I'm learning tennis. Why don't we do a value exchange? You teach me I'll teach you : happy days. So we start teaching each other. He's teaching the tennis and then after the tennis lesson and by the way he grew up with Rafael Nadal. The whole thing is just amazing. Yeah. So this is what I said about putting yourself out there. Now I've talked about one crazy seed planting activity. Yeah, I said all this stuff. I'm teaching about business and entrepreneurship, we should apply it to something so that it lands so that it's not just theory. So let's start a little side hustle just as a project. And let's do it because I'm down. I said, his name's Andy, I go, Where is an opportunity in the marketplace? I've got insights, being not in the tennis world that might be valuable. And you have insights, being in tennis world for, you know, over, like 25 years. Yes. And then what we came to arrive at going back to the design thinking, which is about empathy. First, it's about defining the problem that needs to be solved prioritizing that, then it's moving into ideating, prototyping, testing, and then deploying that in the market. So I said to, you know what? To learn tennis as an adult, you've only got two options. One hour private lesson, yes, one hour group, which is only about four people. So, right. There's nothing really like three hours, bootcamp style. Go, there's summer camps, but they're for kids, and they're like, a week or two weeks. Okay, let's try that. Three hour boot camps for beginner adults. We posted it on Eventbrite. Patti Dobrowolski 31:06 I'm sure that you sold out in a second. Ram Castillo 31:10 Sold out 24 hours, but 100 bucks a ticket. 10 people, Max. And so that will uh huh. Let's post another date up and see if that posted another one sold out with another 24 hours. Like, huh. I wonder what else? Let's do a serving specific one posted that that sold out long and the short of it for started, just as an idea is now a fully fledged business. Right? And this is what I'm saying? I'm not even from the tennis world. Exactly. I've not been introduced to tennis as a child. Right? Right. New to this Yes. And yet, I was able, talking about creativity, talking about mixing and matching a combination that is going to be equity in that idea. I love Patti Dobrowolski 31:58 that. And the other piece that you added to this was a value exchange, which I think this is often underrated. People don't realize how easy you know, that's how I met Pete Cohen. value exchange, I came and gave a talk. And then we went and work together, we did all this stuff in Europe, and then you know, just all the time, this value exchange exists out there for you as a possibility. Anytime that you put yourself out there because you did this first. You thought okay, I think I'll document this. Because why not? It seems crazy enough to do right. So you posted it on Instagram or Tiktok? Or whatever you did you like struggling with the racquet and the staff and then getting some stuff down. And then this person sees you because he watched all the videos right of you doing it? Where'd you put it on YouTube? Must have been on Ram Castillo 32:55 my Instagram. Yeah. And so they're documenting my learning journey. That's right. Patti Dobrowolski 33:00 And that's what we're hungry for? Is people learning, being vulnerable, and starting out Because all of us a) we want to learn something new, b) most of us are afraid to try. Because we think oh, I don't know, could I be any good in that, but I've always wanted to. And then somebody comes along and post something where they're doing the thing. And we think, Hey, that guy can do it. And he's really short. I think I could do it too. Right. All right. Yeah. So that's fantastic. I love that and then Ram Castillo 33:33 That's right. Absolutely. And just thought that Patti, what we're really talking about here as well is around, going back to that point about when I buy or follow or am connected to you as a fan, or whatever, customizers, you know, I can see myself in you. And there's a really important piece here, which is, I can trust you enough to go where you're taking me, trust is only possible with safety. Now, if I'm being vulnerable, and I am saying I'm learning and I'm showing you my mistakes, documenting it, I feel safe. And when I feel safe, the only way I can get that is if there's familiarity. And the only way that there's familiarity, is with consistency. And the only way that there's consistency is with repetition. So repetition, showing up, even when you don't see results straightaway, will lead to consistency. So I'll go back the other way. Repetition, consistency, familiarity, safety, trust. Patti Dobrowolski 34:32 That's right. And all of that equals success over time. You know, people they'll say to you, you know, like the person that said, you know, I've spent four months or three months since I graduated and I haven't gotten a job. How many emails did you send out? Well, 10 a week and you're like the Yeah, okay, get real and get into the present moment because we're talking about 7 billion people online right now. So you are just invisible. In that until you make yourself visible, and how do you do that? You do that through repetition and consistency, and then vulnerability, and then over that, that builds trust. And I'm using my own words here, but this is what we're talking about. That's the bridge to someone else. And that bridge becomes friendship, it becomes client relationship, it becomes value exchange, it becomes love, it becomes network expansion, all of that. But part of that is about you risking, you have to take a risk, and put yourself out there, this is how you create change in your life, is what you're talking about, is that you get an idea. And you could shelve that idea. And you could ask people, if you should do that idea, which often will bring shade on your idea, and then you don't want to do it. Or you can go out and you can find people that want to try an idea or want to expand something. And then there you go. Ram Castillo 36:07 And one of the things that I often suggest to people, Patti, because we're talking about not just you know, throwing spaghetti on the wall and seeing what sticks for no Rattray, right. What we're really also talking about is designing the future that you desire, and tapping into your creative genius. And what might that be sure there's a bit of there's there needs to be experimentation to all this. But there's also that bigger question, which is, and full of you listening, I suggest you finish this sentence, and really write it down. Don't let it live in your head. But my vision for a better world is one with more designers, entrepreneurs, and problem solvers. Because that is what the world needs. So now how it lives, I'm not so tied to if I have to go on and explore this speaking thing, or this writing thing, or this podcasting thing, or this YouTube documenting thing? Yeah, it's less about that. I'm willing to try those things. If they meet the vision, the purpose, because if the purpose isn't there, then the product doesn't matter. That's right, Patti Dobrowolski 37:14 if the purpose is for you to make a million dollars, it's not the same as if the purpose is to expand and move women into technology, or to show people all around the world that if you draw a picture of your vision, that you can take action on it, you can increase your chances by 42%. These are the things that will drive you that you can help people with. And the helping other people is the expensive element. It is to me the creative genius equation, right? The equation is around imagination and intuition and desire and drive. But it leads you to outcome to the infinite power, then outcome to the infinite power is I live and I serve the universe. And what I do is to live my biggest self and serve at the highest level, right? And that's what you're doing right now, which to me is so amazing. You're pulling together these people into your podcasts. And also I'm sure that you know, I see the photos of you in design sessions with people to design and develop new ideas and expand them. And I just love that because we are creating a new world every second. And you really are. What is it that fascinate you right now? What are you fascinated with? That's happening out there that you're looking at? And you go, Huh, that's interesting. I kind of like that, or is it this value exchange? What is it? Ram Castillo 38:46 So the first thing that comes to mind that fascinates me right now is how low the bar is for convenience. Let me contextualize this. It's so easy to be inconvenienced now. Yeah. Okay. So, I myself, I had to fill up the petrol my car, and there was one car in front of me, and I rarely drive but I've gone for a long drive the other day, and there was one car in front of me, and then I started to feel impatient. Yes. I also realized that because we were locked down in Sydney for good for Patti Dobrowolski 39:21 oh, yeah, you couldn't even you know, people had to be in a place for a month before you were actually able to go home if you flew in the country. Yes. Ram Castillo 39:28 Yeah. So we had like four months of lockdown we had one hour was the max that you're allowed to go outside and only for specific things. If there's cops all around who get like $5,000 fines, those curfew, the whole thing. So I didn't even have to leave my couch. Technically, I could order my groceries and I actually enjoyed going to the groceries, you know, and now I'm comfortable enough. I don't even need to, like do any kind of like it's convenience. Yes, it's so low now. Yeah, so it's easy to be inconvenient. So I'm fascinated by the lack of voluntary delayed gratification, Patti Dobrowolski 40:05 yes. O.M.G. Wait. The lack of involuntary gratification, right of that waiting. Nobody wants to wait anymore for anything. You don't want to wait for the lack of voluntary, voluntary. Yes, sorry. Ram Castillo 40:24 Like for example, if I'm, you know, uncomfortable, and I'm agitated, it's like, that means there's no consequence Patti. Yeah. You see, it's like, if I can't get this right now, then I'll blow I climate a blow behave this way. Patti Dobrowolski 40:42 Yeah, exactly. I'll just blow up. Hey, I live in Texas. I know all about that. Right? Yes. So you can see that everywhere. But it's everywhere. It's pervasive in, you know, if I can't get what I want right now, I'll just turn on Netflix. And then if I can't get the internet, then I'll find something else. And I'll do this and that. And I'm just filling up all the space that was in waiting in that silence. And that patience in that beautiful quietness, has somehow just evaporated? Ram Castillo 41:14 Well, here's the kicker, all this. It's not just that. I'm fascinated by it. I want listeners to understand that because the bar is so low, it's so easy to be inconvenienced. That's why there's so few great people now in the world, that you can be great. Now is the time. Yeah, my point is, start the thing. Yes. write that book. Finally, you know, launch that podcast, business, meet that person, send that email. Yeah, make that phone call. Now, you might think it's more difficult. Patti Dobrowolski 41:53 But now is the opening. Now's the opening, now's the time, you better step in, now is the time for you to step in. So you have shared so many like jewels, I'm going to go back and listen to this over and over again, for myself. And listeners, I hope you will too. Because we are talking about just really simple processes for you to get out and get your brand solidified, so that you can be known and trusted. And then you can make money doing what it is that you love, which is I know what people want, right? And this piece that Rahm is saying right now, he's saying, Listen, you got to go and do this. Now. Don't wait, because the bar is really low. And so everybody is easily inconvenienced to step on in there. Because you're going to be able to solve somebody's problem right away, right away, because the problems are really simple. Now. They're really simple. So tell me, you know, from your perspective, you gave a lot of tips, but tell me, so let's say somebody's sitting listening, and they're thinking, Oh, I don't know, you know, can I go out and do? What would you say to them about this? You said this about the now but what steps do you think that they might consider as they go out? You mentioned a few buttons, say them again, if you would? Ram Castillo 43:22 Well, I'll give you one framework that I designed for decision making, specifically, because I consider myself a decision making business coach specializing in rapid decision making specifically. And I've created a framework that everyone can use, and they can check out my website, if they want the diagram, or my Instagram. Patti Dobrowolski 43:41 It's all there. And it'll be in the show notes too. So look down there. Absolutely. And Ram Castillo 43:46 take this, you know, this framework, which I which I've coined the lightning bolt method, it's a rapid decision making framework. So it's helped me with both micro and macro decision making from deciding what to cook to dinner for dinner or to business I'd now allow meals today. future transport experiences as well. Right. I actually desired stage one of what the next 10 years of New South Wales trains look like. And so Patti Dobrowolski 44:11 as a three pints house, Okay, I'm ready. Ram Castillo 44:14 Yes. So you start here, interrogate your objectives. Patti Dobrowolski 44:17 Okay, first, interrogate your objectives. Alright, Ram Castillo 44:21 got her got your objectives, and I'll expand in a little bit, but we've got these three main buckets, interrogate your objectives. Number two is curate your criteria. Yes. And number three is dismantle obstacles. Okay. So the interrogate objectives is, you know, we're not in a shortage of having an objective a goal, a dream, we want many things. Patti Dobrowolski 44:49 No, it's not. It's not. Yes. Ram Castillo 44:52 I think the issue is that we don't interrogate it. We identify so many. That that's part The problem first of all, so we need to interrogate which objectives are going to be really meaningful for you. Yes, and interrogate them. I define interrogate objectives as this. What is the minimum viable intention? The minimum viable intention? So I want what to happen. Yes. So start there, like I said to you, my intention was to help, actually about the beginning, it was just to help designers get a job, right. So now I'm not tied to if it turns into a speaking, engagement, or you're Patti Dobrowolski 45:39 teaching online or you're doing whatever, right exactly book Ram Castillo 45:43 audio paperback, what podcast whatever, right, exactly. So interrogate it, interrogate the objective, don't just identify it, interrogate it down to the minimum viable intention, just Yes. The Patti Dobrowolski 45:56 minimum viable intention. So the simplest, simplest, right, simplest, clearest since we're talking about specific and clear, thank you. Ram Castillo 46:07 Correct. That's why the second is curate criteria, which is being brutally honest with your non negotiables. That's it. So with the criteria, the problem that I've often found is that or a sometimes there's not even a criteria, but there's there's so many maybes or I want it to be like this. No, no, non negotiables. You want to take that job? What are your non negotiables? You got a newborn, you need to clock off five, that's a non negotiable. You can't work weekends that are non negotiable, that you've got a certain limitation or comfort around how far you're willing to travel. Specify that. Yeah, that's a non negotiable. Patti Dobrowolski 46:48 Yes, yeah. And you can see on the in the Amazon ads that are on right now, that's what they're appealing to. That's what they're appealing. Absolutely. The non negotiables, right. Ram Castillo 46:58 Absolutely. I'm advising these two founders. They're two dads with three kids each, and they both work full time. And when I said to them, alright, you've got this new startup. It's kind of like Airbnb for backyards. And they're like, we're willing to throw everything into it time, money, energy, you name it, and I go, Whoa, you have to let me just for a second. Yes. Yeah. Didn't have all the time in the world. No, yes. What's the non negotiable? They were like? Well, every night, maybe one hour, maybe max. And then on weekends, maybe like, two hours, three hours, and I go, so you don't have all the time? Money? How much you're willing to spend on it. They said collectively, like 35,000 for the first sort of milestone I go. That's not an unlimited amount of resources. It No. And energy then looked tired. Yeah. And it's like, so curate your criteria. What are your non negotiables be brutally honest. And the third bucket is dismantling obstacles, which basically just comes down to pull it apart? Yeah, here are the things stopping me from getting to that, write them all down, pull it apart and search for the source of it the root cause. Yeah, cuz, Patti, often, it's might be even internal. Patti Dobrowolski 48:13 In my mind, I was thinking like, I was thinking limiting beliefs might be limiting Ram Castillo 48:17 beliefs. But we've got to list all these things down so that we're able to pair a specific Yes, yes. Or tool to just tackle that root cause? Patti Dobrowolski 48:28 Yes. Right. Ram Castillo 48:29 And some people say to me, Ram, I'm not great at Adobe Creative Suite. Now. There's Figma. Now there's all these tools like Miro board and this and I'm like, What do you want it to do? They're like, I just need a bit of animation. Exactly. It will constantly update the technology will constantly go higher and higher. Yes. So you just learned the minimum amount? careers that look like yes, basics, intermediate level, what does that look like? See too many people get caught up, and they don't address and measure? Yes. So this hopefully will help you get unstuck lightning fast. Patti Dobrowolski 49:05 Well, and I would say that is a lightning bolt right there. Kaboom. Really, this is a very simple three step process. You can use it anytime that you're thinking about changing anything in your life in your world, or what you're going to eat for that evil. Ram Castillo 49:21 Even the other day, I was like, a doll, what are we going to eat and then so my minimum viable intention was to just cook a healthy meal, right? And something that wasn't going to take, you know, half an hour. Patti Dobrowolski 49:34 That's a parameters. Ram Castillo 49:36 So it was you know, simple protein and veggies like and you know, what was stopping me was like, okay, all these ingredients. I don't have this as well, you know, got salt and pepper. That'll do. Like, again, it's just when you go through it. The criteria was this. My wife didn't care. She was just tired. She just wanted you know something. Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 49:56 Can you forgive me, right? I love Yes, yes, I know. My wife was that way last night she goes, can we just have eggs and then you cut some vegetables and put it in, I go, No problem. Got it. Now it's solved. Now we don't have to worry about, we don't have to think about where we're going or ordering or going to the grocery store or anything like that. It's all done. Because it's really the smallest and simplest and specific. And then we just take away the obstacle, whatever perceived obstacle there is, I love that you are so fantastic. I could talk to you all day long. I really could. And I hope I get to again, I hope that you'll come back and you'll tell me everything else that you've learned about the world. And then I can ask you about the other ventures that you started, you know, by just going to the tennis court or maybe going to the test a lot or whatever it was that you were doing your latest thing that you're just experimenting with? Because why not? Now you're not in lockdown in the same way. I don't think are you still walked down there? Not necessarily free, yay, free at last free at last. I love it. Okay, good. Well, thank you so much for everything that you poured into us. Because in this podcast, I mean it I'm serious, I'm going to listen to it over and over again, because there was so much good thinking around you and your brand. And so I thank you for being here. And everybody who's listening, please follow him. His podcast is called the giant thinker. And it's singular, right? The giant thinker and just want to say we want to get him back into number three status. So go in there, follow him. He's on Apple, Spotify, he's probably everywhere with his podcast. So just follow him on Instagram, same handle there. Also in the show notes, you can find him on Clubhouse in this room and that room, mostly around creativity. And I just can't wait to see you again. Thank you so much for being here. Ram Castillo 51:50 Thank you, Patti. Yeah, the podcast is available there for anyone. It's called giant thinkers, my handles the giant thinkers, on that on everywhere. I'd love to hear from you, you know, continue to conversation and it's just about that, you know, planting many seeds. And Patti, I am so grateful to be on your show. You're an absolute rock star, you are a beam of light. And all of us honestly, like Patti Dobrowolski 52:12 one beam to the other there. I'm just saying. So anyone who's listening in, you know, just put all of his great wisdom into your life. Try it and tested. See what parts work for you. Because this is a simple process that will just explode everything that you have thought was hard to do. You'll be able to do it. I just know you will. So to everybody that's tuning in, you know what I'm saying to you is go out there be your best self bring good things to the world because we need you now more than ever don't mess around. Get in, step into your brand. Go out kaboom the world. And until next time, up your creative genius. Thanks again. Thanks for coming on. I love you. Ram Castillo 53:01 Thanks, Patti. Big Love. Thank you so much. Patti Dobrowolski 53:06 Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius . Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap.

Lani Phillips is the Vice President, US Channel Sales Organization in Microsoft. Lani has spent her 20 over years working in transforming others and in charge of the digital transformation and all the co-selling with partners. Lani was the 2020 Executive from linkage. Then she also got the global minded inclusive leader award, and she was on CRN the 2020 women in channel leading fearlessly in times of crisis. Furthermore, she started a live digital program, which is all about inspiring people with modern mentoring where she shares her wisdom globally to help people thrive in corporate spaces. She is always creating opportunities for women in the technology space. Lani graduated from Naveen Jindal School of Management, UT Dallas and is the founder and board member at Women Executives Channel Advisory Board (WECAB) and a board member of Advisors (Diversity & Inclusion) at International Association of Microsoft Channel Partners (IAMCP). Lani Phillips https://laniphillips.com/ Follow Lani Phillips on Twitter and Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/laniphillips/ https://twitter.com/mslaniphillips Timestamp 1:00 Background of Lani Phillips 3:45 Her journey working in Microsoft 5:33 From traveller's insurance company to the Microsoft 6:50 What led her to the Microsoft partner program? 8:56 Thriving part of corporate America 11:29 Her most pivotal moment in life 16:51 Lani's lightbulb moment on getting out of playing small 23:45 Courage in admitting things that you do not know 24:46 Keeping her day balanced 27:37 Her tip of decompressing at the end of the day 31:15 Lani's goal for modern mentoring 36:41 Getting out of the comfort zone 39:11 Pivoting in the digital world Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to The Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski up your creative genius. And I am so excited today. I have Lani Phillips here, you are going to love her. Now I just have to give you a bio on her because she's got an extensive history that is needs to be called out. So first off, she's a seasoned technology executive. I mean, we're talking 20 plus years. And right now she's the VP of us channel for Microsoft. Now, if you don't know what that means, that means she's in charge of the digital transformation and all the co-selling with partners. She's overseeing that whole program in Microsoft in that ecosystem. And we're talking about $50 billion that she oversees in business. So you're incredible for that number one, and then I got a couple of things I want to shout out because in 2020, she got a whole slew of awards, which she totally deserved. But I want to call out a couple of them for sure. She was the 2020 executive. She got that executive award for impact from linkage. Okay, that's one. Then she also got the global minded inclusive leader award, that's two and then she was on CRN the 2020 women in channel leading fearlessly in times of crisis, and now we're talking about her and all these incredible. And I was gonna say in powerful, they're powerful women on that same, you know, just call out. And so she's incredible. She's founded a number of boards for women in technology, she is always creating opportunity for women in the technology space. And recently, she started this live digital program, which is all about inspiring people with modern mentoring. And so with that she's sharing her wisdom globally to help people thrive in corporate spaces. You have had some incredible heavy hitters on there. I have listened to every single one. Welcome to the show. Lani Phillips 02:47 Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you. Patti Dobrowolski 02:51 Oh my gosh, now, you know, that is a lot of things that you've been doing. And I went back, okay, cuz this is how I am I have to kind of see what you're about. So I went and watched some of your interviews, you know, at all the different Microsoft events, you know, to hear you and see you. And you're so calm, cool and collected there. All right, we're talking about 20 years. But that is a lot of experience that you have. Lani Phillips 03:17 Yeah, it's a long time. Patti Dobrowolski 03:22 You know, I know it. I know it. So will you tell people from your perspective, I would love it. If you would tell them your story. Like how did you get here to be that VP of the US channel at Microsoft? Come on, that is a long steep climb. I know I work at Microsoft, so I know. So tell me, where did you start? And how did you get going in this direction in tech? Lani Phillips 03:45 Well, where I actually started was I actually decided that I really enjoy technology. So all through school, I just thought, you know what, I really had a knack for math, science and technology. And so I just decided that I wanted to be a part of helping to design the future. And so I actually started off as a systems engineer. So when I joined Microsoft, that was my title. And when I joined, I felt like you know, talk about imposter syndrome and all that I went to work for a big technology company like Microsoft. I just felt like, Oh, my goodness, I'll never be able to keep up the way they were innovating technology back then. So I actually did it for about three years at Microsoft and decided they were having more fun in sales. But I also recognize that it was tapping more into my strengths. And for me, I could really do some of the hard sciences and I knew the technical stuff, but I really love the connection with people and to solve business problems. So I brought those two together, and the rest is history. I just kind of started going into sales. I had a lot success there. And then it kept going from there. A lot of great mentors and sponsors along the way. Patti Dobrowolski 05:06 Oh, yeah. Well, I think you have to in that space, you know, in corporate America, it's all about the networking. It's all about the people and the relationships. So say something about that. So you went to school here in Dallas, didn't you? Lani Phillips 05:22 Yeah, University of Texas at Dallas. I did. Patti Dobrowolski 05:24 I know. I love that. And so you ended up getting hired at Microsoft? Was that here? Or did you go to Seattle? Where were you? Where are you now? Lani Phillips 05:33 So when I joined Microsoft, I was working for a insurance company at the time it was the St. Paul. The St. Paul Insurance Company, St. Paul fire and marine insurance company today is called Traveler's Insurance. Patti Dobrowolski 05:48 Wow. Lani Phillips 05:48 Because they bought that company. And I worked in it over there. And I managed all the IT training, I was out presenting some technology. And a guy who was a technologist, US, a systems engineer at Microsoft saw me present. He said, Have you ever considered a career at Microsoft? And I said, I would love to work for Microsoft. And he says, I think we need you over there. And he basically brought me in, and I had like, 12 interviews, and more interviews later, and I was living in Minneapolis, Minnesota. And they moved me to Houston, Texas for my first time at Microsoft. And that was 24 years. Patti Dobrowolski 06:31 Wow, that is crazy. So 24 years at Microsoft. And so Wow, so you moved around? I know how Microsoft works, right? They just move you around within the organization. And then how did you end up in the partner program? Lani Phillips 06:50 Well, the good news is, we've always been a company that's been friendly with partners, we always we need them our bread and butter is our partners. Yeah. So I've always had jobs where there was no way we could be successful without partners. So I've always worked alongside our partners for many, many years. But what happened was, I actually took a job where I was the chief transformation officer for enterprise business. And while in that job, I was really overseeing a huge shift we were making, we were driving a real cultural transformation around how we go to market as a sales organization. Yeah, while there, they asked me, Hey, you know what we need to make sure when we think about co-sell and partners, who would love to have you come and help us transform that part of our business as well. So that was kind of what brought me over here. And I've been here three years. Patti Dobrowolski 07:45 Oh, wow. But part of what you did coming over there with this is what I read about and listened to you talk about was you started these forums, where you were really listening to the partners to see what was the next wave of the future. Right. So this to me just matches exactly what you're doing now, with your monitored mentoring. This is really where you're trying to take people is into this new mindset, where we're looking at how can we include everybody in what it is that we're doing? And how can you make sure that your voice is heard, because a lot of the people that you have, they're they're really leaders in their space, they've been doing amazing things in their communities, in companies. And they're you're grabbing and gleaning from them all this fantastic information about how you survive in corporate America, because you really do you know, at first you survive, and then you thrive, when you figure out that thriving has everything to do with what what would you say? What is the thriving part of corporate America? Do you know? How do you make that happen? Lani Phillips 08:56 I would say thriving in corporate America, it would be reliant on first and foremost, train yourself to show up as your authentic self and bringing your gifts to work every single day. Patti Dobrowolski 09:08 Yeah. Lani Phillips 09:08 I think two really kind of understand the winning formula to help you be successful. Right. Patti Dobrowolski 09:14 The winning formula? Lani Phillips 09:15 I think it depends on the company. And it depends on the role that you have. But I think that is the quest we're all after. Whenever you take a role inside the company, what does success look like? And has anyone actually achieved that success? And what was the formula they use to get there? Now to the earlier point you're making, I'm a big fan of making sure that we all maintain a growth mindset. And always think about how you can make something better. I definitely have that tendency to want to transform things for the better. I also believe in having listening mechanisms where you can provide a platform. For people to have a voice, to help shape your thinking, because that will help you figure out where you have some common themes and problems you need to solve. And then you can pull together the right resources to help solve that problem. But in the whole world of trying to thrive in corporate America, it really is around freeing yourself to bring the very best of yourself to work, because so many people still hold back. Patti Dobrowolski 10:27 Yeah, it's really fear is a big thing. It's a big thing. I think that part of what we always have to remind ourselves is that we're here to bring our best selves, always. And that if we're holding back in that environment, that's not our best selves. That's our fearful self, right, you know, fear on one side, love on the other. And so if you can step into the place of love yourself enough that you can show up as you and know that whatever happens is going to happen right? Now, when you talk about this, I know that you had some really great mentors, you had to have. So tell me a little bit about, you know, who inspired you to be able to go into that environment and be successful? And then who do you, you know, count on now. So tell me a little bit about your history of mentorship? And then who do you aspire to be now and have relationships with now? Lani Phillips 11:29 Sure. So would you allow me Patti to take a trip down memory lane, definitely talk about a moment where it was probably the most pivotal moment in my life that shaped who I am today. Patti Dobrowolski 11:42 Definitely. Lani Phillips 11:43 And I'm sharing it with you, because the more that I share my story, I have to I can't ignore that because it did shake. And it'll start off a little sad. But it'll get, it'll pick up. So I don't want you to, don't pull out the tissue. So I actually lost my mother at five years old. My mother was a school teacher, she was beloved. And when I say beloved, she was beloved. And cancer took her life. And she was so beloved, we had two funerals in two different states. So we actually at the first funeral, I have one younger sister, my 12 year old mind was just grief stricken, because that's my mother there. But when they give you time to talk about the deceased, a whole bunch of people stood up and lined up around the church, because they wanted a moment to get on the microphone. My 12 year old mind was like, I don't want to have to go through this. I want to go home and grieve the loss of my mother, I don't want to be at a funeral and allow people to talk about it. But each one of those individuals got up and talked about the impact she made on their life. I mean, it was one story after the next about how she challenged them, love them supported them. But at 12 years old, I heard it, but I didn't hear it. You know what I mean? Yeah, because I was sad. And I put a block on. And then I woke up one day, and I remembered just so you know, at her second funeral, same thing happened different group of people, this woman in 42 years of her life, literally touched the lives of every person that she encountered. And, and her funeral, they were talking about her life and the impacts. So fast forward, what's in me and I give my mother credit for that is the desire to serve, and the desire to make a difference in people's lives. Now, as I was on my career journey, it took me a while to find my voice. And it was mentors that came along that really believed in me, and gave me that courage to be able to speak. But I think what happened through it all, is I think time, maturity, and finally just realizing I am not going to go through life, just playing small. Yeah, I just want to show up as the best version of myself and a champion for all people. And you know what, some people are gonna like it, some people are not gonna like it, but that's okay. I'm gonna let my life be an example. But then I think about when this is all said and done, the Microsoft and how long I work there is only going to be a funeral. Patti Dobrowolski 14:50 Blood on the screen. Lani Phillips 14:51 Blood on the screen., the rest is going to be about the interactions you have with people and the impact you've been able to make on people in the world. So I just shifted my energy. But yes, I had mentors that really spoke life into me, encouraged me when I was down. And I've had from men to women they all most didn't even look like me. But you know what, though, the thing that I had, with my mentors, his most of the always focused on the victories, they never really talked about the feeling. Yeah. And that's why I choose to focus on both with the platform I'm trying to create, because I think I would have learned more, had they been willing to share the mistakes? Patti Dobrowolski 15:41 Well, yeah. Because when you look at where things aren't going, well, then you get this opportunity to improve upon it, right? Yeah. But you know, I wonder too, like, you're really a superstar in that space. And what's true is, you you have this way of being in the room where people really pay attention when you speak, you know, I've been in those meetings with you, where you open your mouth, and everybody just boom, shuts down. And whatever they're thinking or saying, so they all ears on you. And I think there's a piece of it. That's confidence that you talked about, right, that you had this confidence and built this confidence. The other thing that you're talking about with this experience is that, and I love this is that you put that wall up on all of that good stuff about your mom, because you were 12. And you couldn't really take it all in because the grief was overwhelming. Then you said that at one point, then you crack through that piece of it. And you realize you weren't gonna play small anymore? When did that happen? Was that something that happened in the last five years? Lani Phillips 16:51 I would say probably happened in the last year. December. I didn't put a timeframe on it. Yeah, just being more intentional about how I show up. You know what, when it happened, also, I realized that I had more years behind me than I did in front of me. And I said, What am I going to do with the time I have left? And I also said, I've been heads down, working hard, chasing excellence, chasing the next big thing. And I still am driven by, but why? Who have I helped? What am I doing to help others, I just kind of woke up and said, You know what, I need to quit playing small and share more of my experiences. And I became an enormous champion for women. And I was just talking to my new EA about this, I do not like to see any woman disrespected. And I will immediately meet and challenge that. Patti Dobrowolski 17:57 Me too. I was in the airport, the guy in front of me was given the woman behind the counter, uh, you know, she was taking too long to make us latte. And I said to him, hey, wait a minute, you cannot treat her that way. And he said, I can do whatever I want. And then he stormed off. And I thought, okay, and then I just turned to her and said, You don't ever need to take that from anybody and just know that women, we got your back. And so and that's what's true, we have to have each other's back now, especially you're in tech, you know, and there are so few women in tech, there just are because it's taken over by this huge space. And we have to claim our place there. Because as we go into augmented reality, you know, and AI, we have to make sure our voices are represented, or everything that we see and experience in the world is going to be from the male perspective, which is not going to be a good thing. Lani Phillips 18:56 Is not going to be a good thing. And I think the other thing that helps shift me is, there's all of these micro aggressions and things you've experienced over the years that you've just grown accustomed to ignoring. And I think I also got to the point where I was just tired of being sick and tired. And said, The only way this is going to change is if I insist that its changed. So that means I've got to show up, that means I've got to use my voice for good. That means I need to be willing to call things out in a respectful way. But yeah, so I've had to have those conversations around intent versus impact. Your intent may have been good, but let's talk about the impact that it had on me and others. Yeah, you've got to be willing to have those conversations in a way in which people can hear you. But I've just decided that with the time I have left, I'm going to make a difference with this platform that I've been given. And hopefully, open the door, extend a hand do whatever I can help as many people as possible. Patti Dobrowolski 20:01 Well, and I would say just with your modern mentoring, you know, your live stream of that. It's so engaging like you've had, you know, you had last week, we had Toni Townes Whitley there, right. She was so incredible. And she spoke to this microaggression and that she was sick of it, you know, and that she'd had it, right. And I think that we have to be sick of it in order for it to change. And then we have to speak up about it in a respectful way. But this is what is a quote off your LinkedIn profile, which I love, and I want to read it because you say, as a champion for all people, I'm passionate about transformational leadership, and committed to empowering people in corporate America. But here, transformational work is not transactional, but behavioral, it is behavioral, and and for so long. We've treated all the DNI stuff like its transaction, you know, it's number of people, it's number of its color people, but it's not. And in order for us to shift, we have to understand really speak to that a little bit. So what this means? Lani Phillips 21:10 Well, I can give you some examples, I think you've seen companies all over who really hyper focused on D, they say DNI, but they really hyper focus on the diversity piece. And so they actually get the numbers. So they bring in more women, they bring in more people of color. And they bring in people with many different backgrounds, and then they start counting. And then what happens is year over year, you start to see those numbers go up, but then they drop, they go up and they drop. And what I started observing, and what I experienced personally, is you're more concerned about getting me here and checking the box, you really haven't invested the time in creating an environment where I feel like I'm seeing valued and heard. And I have a sense of belonging, and where I feel like that I can really grow my career here. And that's inclusion. And that's the piece that I think a lot of people are missing. And when you think about the statement, you may know, diversity is not transactional, but it is relational. You've got to build a true connection and relationship with people to understand what's important to them. And it means you have to meet them where they are at, yeah, understand what support looks like for them, and then demonstrate some compassion and move into action to connect them to resources and things that they need to help them be successful. Patti Dobrowolski 22:28 Yeah, yeah. I think that this piece about connecting them to the resources that they need, like, I think there are so many assumptions made out there from one perspective about what people need. So if we just get this person in place, and they can support everyone that comes in. No, really what we need to do is to begin to open our ears and ask questions, and be willing to fumble around in there, you know, you got to get dirty in there and make mistakes in order for you to learn and grow. And I think now, you know, the interesting thing about everything that's happened in the the whole environment out there, I think that part of what we have to do is realize. And I think I've realized this as I get older, you know, I know so much less than I think I know, you know, before I thought I knew so much and now I've realized, no, I really do. What do I understand about love? And what do I understand about compassion? And what do I understand about listening? And people from around the world? How can I really be in a listening space? And I think that's part of it. You know, you have to ask questions, listen more, and do your own homework. Like don't expect people to do the homework for you. Right? Come on. Lani Phillips 23:45 That's powerful. That's powerful right there. Because it's true. You've got to take responsibility for your own learning journey, too. Yeah. And part of that learning journey is being vulnerable enough to admit you don't know, and to ask questions, and to do your research and to learn, and I'm with you. I think every day I'm given another day to live. I feel like it's another opportunity to learn something new to try anything and it's changing so quickly to right? Patti Dobrowolski 24:15 Right, right, every day around change. Well tell me what is a day in the life of Lani Phillips, what is your day look like? You know, before we got into the podcast, you asked me what my day look like, I'm curious, what does your day look like? Are you just meeting to meeting to meeting? What do you do in terms of your own personal rituals, so that people can understand what it takes to be able to be responsive to listen to be able to pivot when you need to? What do you do in your day to keep yourself balanced? Lani Phillips 24:46 Well, I'll talk about the day because that's different every day. But I will tell you that my mornings and the reason why I say my mornings are sacred is because it sets the tone. And I've learned that I've got to build it time to make sure that I honor that space of myself. And what do I do? Well, a lot of people chuckle, but there's a few things I do, the first thing I do is I usually have a spiritual practice that when I rise, I usually spend some time in a space of gratitude. And just really thinking about the things that I'm grateful for. I do tend to get up every day, and make sure that I do something that inspires me. So I listen to a podcast or listen to music, whatever I'm in the mood for, I listen to an audible, I may read something that I enjoy a book that always have to do something that lifts my spirits. It's just something that I just look forward to, even when I'm traveling, and I've been on the road the last couple weeks, I actually do it even when I'm on the road. I do believe in that. That mindfulness space where you do the deep breathing, I have found that I have to find a way to quiet the noise in my head. Just quiet the noise of everything I have to do and just sit is. Yeah. And it's amazing how much clarity you get when you're done with I also a big planner for the day, what are the three to five things that I must get accomplished? Now, this might surprise you. That's one other thing that people are surprised by. But every day, I say what's going to be my intention for the day. And who's the one person that I want to touch to see if I can make a difference in their life every single day. Patti Dobrowolski 26:37 Now I see how you pull that through your genetic encoding from your mom. Wow. Lani Phillips 26:43 I love it too. And it always makes them smile. If they don't I get as much from it as they do. But for me, it's just my way of, again, planting seeds of just goodness out there and hopes of it coming back my way now was the day starts girl, let me tell you, I go from meeting to meeting to meeting to meeting. And you know, we're in this virtual world today actually had three presentations. And, you know, even the best laid plans I even had one of them had a complete lack. Right and build presentation. I'm like. Patti Dobrowolski 27:19 I've had that happen before. Like I've been the keynote speaker and then the dogs start barking, like crazily for the Amazon truck that's pulled up, right. So you know, there's all that stuff. Wow. Okay. And then what do you do to decompress at the end of your day? How do you do that? Lani Phillips 27:37 So actually, believe it or not, I don't spend as much time catching all the program. So I try it. And first of all, I'm married, and I have a son. And so my husband James and my son, Brian, and I used to try to love on them for a few minutes. But we've been together so long through this pandemic, you know, they might have about 15 to 20 minutes for me, and then I moved on to something else. So I just try to love on them. And then I just go back to my zone, my zone is follow up from the day and look at my list, see what have I accomplished the things I set out to accomplish? I started thinking about what is it I need to follow up on and I try to get to it here lately. Since we've all been in digital overload though, I've really been struggling with the volume of email, and how what kind of new rhythms can I put in place to get to them all? Because I literally checked, I'm getting anywhere from 100 to 110 pieces of mail a day. That's a lot. Patti Dobrowolski 28:37 That's terrible. Yeah, that's terrible. And to have to respond to all that. Well, and I think to in your role, there's some things that you really have to respond to. So you get or you get red, yellow, green on that, you know, you can color code them and tell people. Lani Phillips 28:55 There's you tried to but I'm still, you know, because it's dead, the volume has grown because everybody's resorted to email or communication. But I do try to have that quiet time away from the technology too. Because I do need to be able to decompress and get the required amount of risk. I am at that point now where I need anywhere seven, eight hours. Patti Dobrowolski 29:17 Wow. And you are you getting that I am so now when I get seven, seven and a half. Lani Phillips 29:22 Seven. seven. Yeah, I can get seven. I can get seven, love to get eight. I don't need 10 That feels like it's a little too much. But I am grateful for my sleep. It does. It does a world of makes a world of a difference for me. Patti Dobrowolski 29:39 I've been using my sleep to solve problems. This my new thing I actually I've done it for a long time. But I take that into my dream state so that I get an answer in the morning when I get up. So I'll write it on a three by five card I'll put it under my pillow. And then when I get up first thing, whatever the dream is about then I write that down so that I can see it, unpackage you know, because the, you know, your dream sensor will get in there and it scrambles everything because it doesn't want you to know truth. But that's when all that really quiet time in the morning, you know, allows your creative genius to unravel and set the tone. So I love that. So you, you get up, you got your ritual of gratitude, and then you set your plan for what you're going to do you do something that inspires you that you get into the rhythm of the day, whatever that is. And I hope that in the middle of that you're doing some jumping jacks and stuff like that. Lani Phillips 30:31 You know what that is? You need the exercise part, let's just say, America, gym, I am not perfect. That is something I have not been as consistent with. And I in every day, I'm trying to get what they say 1% better. Patti Dobrowolski 30:47 That's right. It's 1%. Well, and then I got hired by swift to do some work with them. And they're an indoor cycling thing. So I had to ride to take pictures of the landscape in the digital space. So I knew what it looked like. So I could draw it. So I was like, Okay, well, now I got to ride up Mountain Vaughn, too. And that and then I made it halfway up. I'm like, forget it. I'm going back down now. Lani Phillips 31:14 I love it. Patti Dobrowolski 31:15 So you know, you got to marry business with pleasure. And with workout, you know, make your meetings a walking meeting, get on your phone. Lani Phillips 31:21 We do active meetings, we do active meetings. I don't know if you've ever heard of that. But yes, no PowerPoints, and you just do something physically, you know, to get your heart rate go. And we've done that as a team. And that's been fun. Of course, now starting to weather is starting to change. So we're gonna have to do it indoors. Patti Dobrowolski 31:37 But that's because you're in Chicago. So be chilly there. Now tell me. So tell me a little more about your goal for modern mentoring. What is it the vision that you have for that? What do you see? And what's the impact that that's having that you're experiencing? I'm seeing your numbers go up in the view. Lani Phillips 31:56 Yes, they are going up. So you know, so funny, the reason I started modern mentoring, is because during the pandemic, there were more requests for people don't want one on one mentoring. And I just didn't have any more hours. So I had to come up with another solution. And in my sleep, it was like, okay, you've got this oddness with social media that you got to get over, right. But you have this dead strong desire to help. Yeah, why don't we try to use the technology to scale mentoring. That's really where it all came from. And then I was like, Oh, that's very modern, so called Modern mentor. And I found the one wrote a book on it. And I was like, whatever. Patti Dobrowolski 32:38 Whatever. Lani Phillips 32:41 To me, I guess I didn't read that book. So I was trying to figure out a scale it. But here's what happened. And I ended up really, it was just a project. And then I was seeing that it was really helping people and they were getting so much fun. And I was getting these emails and voicemails, trying to encourage me to keep going. And now I feel like I'm really doing something that may turn into a movement, and I hope more people start to do it. So my vision now is one to just continue to bring the collective wisdom. This is not about money. This is about we can learn something from each other. And let's have a conversation about just some of the unique challenges people face when they're in corporate spaces. And let's be willing to share what's worked. Let's also share what didn't work. And let's do it in a format. That's just a few tips that you can go in and take what applies to you. And so my vision is for this to be a platform that continues to grow. Yes, I've been approached about making it a real service, right, and moving it to technology where we can actually have a full platform behind it. I've had people raise their hand and say, let's do that. I've been asked to turn it into a talk show. I think I'm up to about a dozen times that's come up. They want to see me do a read table talk concept. I'm like be and Bill it. I am a team of one, I have two volunteers and that's it. And the volunteers only helped me during the when I'm trying to brainstorm what to do. And they helped me with the captions part of the interview and pull up those captions. And so I've got a I have so many people now that are leaning in. Hey, Lani, this is something special. I want to see you do it more, though. I think what I'll do is I'll just bring together a small group of people, and then we'll figure out how to scale this thing even more. Patti Dobrowolski 34:45 But here's the thing, you know, I listen to different podcasts and I listened to people doing interviews and what I love about what you've done is first you did it just you and then you were mentoring people in the conversation while you were getting your feet wet. I mean, really what I loved about it was you were really transparent about you didn't understand what was happening, the technology was. And like that, right? And then you started to have people on with you. And then like, now I see oh, you see, now she's hitting her stride. Because I think for me, having you here is amazing. And the conversation that you get to have when you have somebody one on one is really incredible. And what you've added to that is questions from the audience, right? So that they can ask you anything, and your guest anything. And I think that is really valuable. So I would encourage you to, I would like to see what your read table would be like I would, I think it would, might be something around the scariest moments, you know, like things that have really gone awry, or the really hard conversations that we have with, right. That's what we need in in the corporate setting, is a lot of that to break through. But what I will say and I want to call this out for the listeners is so she had this idea about it, and then she put it into practice, she knew it was her Achilles heel, it wasn't something she wanted to do to get online and look at how fantastic she is. And you ought to see all the headshots she has. They're incredible. And I hope that you put them in your Instagram feed and that you get somebody who can because they're amazing. And what's true is that, so then she scaled that as she went, and this is how you really begin to pivot into and lean into the things that you think are calling you, but you're not sure you're capable of doing them. Right. Lani Phillips 36:41 Absolutely. That's exactly what it was. And I always have is leaning into my discomfort, but I was really reaching for the desire to help so many more people. And I had to get comfortable with this medium that I was still you know, there's digital native and the digital adapter. I'm more of a digital adapter, because I didn't grow up on all of this technology, right social technology. So it was something that I just had to get comfortable with. But I knew I had a heart to serve. And I had a heart to share my story. And I had a heart to get other people's stories out there. But to your point, if I didn't move it to a bigger platform, the thing people want is they want that interaction with me. So I think we'll see where it goes. This is what I told the last person I said it to me, I said, I surrender, whatever is supposed to happen will happen. Here's what I will commit to you, I'll keep doing it. And eventually, the resources and all this together, and we'll figure it out. So we can scale it even more Patti Dobrowolski 37:46 well, and so and even listen to that. So this is a tip to for all of you that are listening, you know, you can make the greatest plans in the world. And you can also learn to surrender to what is and what will happen, it doesn't mean that you're not going to do the work to figure out the technology, it doesn't mean that you're going to pull together the team to give you the ideas, or that you're going to have to stay up late and figure out what you need to know or get someone to teach you what you need to know in order to move forward. But the truth is, is that in the end, you have to surrender it up and let the universe open the door for you. Because you can't see what's out there, you might have painted the you know, and I'm big on painting a picture of the future. But you don't know everything that's going to happen in the future. So that's why I say start with how you will feel at the end of the change that you're in or how you feel when you are reaching. You know, so many people through this, whether it's a bunch of teams out there doing and you're helping them and giving some tips on how to do it or whatever it is right. But that you surrender it up, I know, tell me just a few tips for people that are listening in about how they can pivot and grow themselves in in the modern world anything that you would just share any additional points because you shared so much already. Lani Phillips 39:11 You know, pivot in this more digital world? You know, I would tell you, first and foremost is you've got to pay attention to the changes that are happening in front of us. Let me give you an example. Right now, when you think about how do I stay up on things. One of the areas that I recognize that is not going away anytime soon, is being able to work in this hybrid. And we all know this pandemic has gone on longer. It's at different stages, no matter where you live in the world. And I got to figure out how do I drive engagement within my organization? And how do I have deeper connection. I came across a lady by the name of Erica Diwan who actually wrote a book on digital body. And I had an opportunity to hear speak. And the thing that opened me up was the fact that we all have digital technology, this digital world, but how do we create trust and connection? And how far reaching it is? Because we all think it's through email, or we think it's through video. But it's all in how you send an email that greeting how you connect, how are you demonstrating empathy. So it's forcing me to have to really sit back and really reevaluate. What does it mean to connect, I think someone who wants to pivot, based on everything I said, you do have to pay attention to where things are evolving and changing, and invest the time and just getting smarter about it. Like you said, the older I get, I realized, I don't know a lot of stuff and a lot to learn, because things are changing right before our very eyes. So I would encourage you to pay attention, look where you see trends going, and then figure out what you need to go learn. And then I'm going to learn a lot about digital body language. Thanks, Erica. But then what I'll do is I'll adapt, because I'll have my own set of experiences, right? Patti Dobrowolski 41:15 Yes. Lani Phillips 41:15 And then I will figure out what works best for me. And then what am I going to want to do? Pay it forward? Patti Dobrowolski 41:22 That's right, you're gonna want to show us how they can do it. I love to share what other people I'm so I'm like, so excited. Lani Phillips 41:29 But I think for people who want to transform, I think, first of all, just see where the trends are going. You got I also tell people take inventory of yourself, you know, what are your strengths? What are those towering strengths you have? What are those gifts that no one can do better than you? And then what are those areas? Patti Dobrowolski 41:50 Yeah. Lani Phillips 41:51 some of that stuff, you can just let go of and surround yourself with people that have strengths in that area. But I really do believe that once we get clear on the things that are our special gifts, if you invest in those where they'll become towering strengths, and you'll be able to live that be how you earn a living. That'll be how you live your life and share with others. Patti Dobrowolski 42:13 And then you become your legend. Which is really, that's it. That's it in a nutshell, really, you got to pay attention to trends, you got to really put your attention on your strengths. And know that you know, the thing about the world is there's only one you bring that you bring what you have, and then do this thing that Lani is talking about, which is be in service to all of life in that space, help and impact people day by day, it'll small things add up to big change in the world. So you got to be the change. You really do. And I love you so much. I just think you're incredible. And I think that people are going to go crazy over this podcast and all the tips that you dropped and your stories are so moving. Thank you so much for spending time with us. And I just can't wait to see what else you're up to. So everybody, please follow, you know, modern mentoring with Lani Phillips. You can find that on LinkedIn, but she's on YouTube with it and she does a live broadcast every week. You are incredible. Thank you so much for being here. Lani Phillips 43:27 Thank you so much for having me. I love you and I appreciate you for having me on. Patti Dobrowolski 43:32 Yeah, it was fantastic. Okay, everybody, you know what we say you know, go out and make it a great day for other people and know that you're loved in the universe. There's only one you let's do this. Until next time, Up Your Creative Genius. And that's a wrap. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski, and the up your creative genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Dan Hilbert has lived in Connecticut for 30+ years and worked in New York City for 18 of those. Dan made a move to Texas about 6 years ago to be closer to his job. Dan spent his career in Marketing and Events with executive level positions at Fortune 100 companies. But when the pandemic hit - and like many others - Dan found himself with less working hours and pay. It was then that he started to fill his time making bagels - the NY Style bagels he had missed from the East Coast. With hours spent honing his craft and passion - he and his wife Jennifer reinvented themselves - leaving corporate America and opening a thriving bagel shop -  and becoming small business owners. Follow Dan Hilber: Dan's Bagel https://www.dansbagels.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dansbagels Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dansbagels/ Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/dans-bagels/about/ Linkedin Dan Hilbert: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-hilbert-8610051/ Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@dansbagels Timestamp [1:22] Background of Dani Hilbert [2:41] His journey on starting his own bagel shop [5:52] The importance of seeking help from experts [7:14] Family support great part of Dan's business [10:52] Rule One, stay healthy [15:35] What drives Dan to his first bagel business? [19:10] Enough rest makes a better you [21:18] Do not afraid and never stop exploring [24:02] Importance of excellent staffs in a business [27:24] Dan's big dream [29:49] Dan's advise to make dream into reality [33:26] Dan's way of lifting his mood  Patti Dobrowolski 00:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius podcast, where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski and if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski with Up Your Creative Genius.  Oh, I am so excited to interview Dan Hilbert. He's amazing. And I met him in the trophy club. When I was riding my bike out there, I saw that there was a bagel shop and I'm like, You are kidding. And someone recommended his shop to me. And I went in there. And now that I know him, and I've tasted his bagels, which I just have to say, I have my favorite bagel right here. I just want to tell you all about him, listeners. And so welcome on the show. Dan, thanks for being here. Dan Hilbert 01:17 Thank you. Thank you very much. And thanks for stopping by the shop. Really appreciate it. Patti Dobrowolski 01:22 Oh, yeah, I love it. Now, let me just tell people a little bit about you. And then I want you to tell your story from your perspective. So you lived in Connecticut for 30 plus years, and you commuted to New York City for 18 of those years, right? That's correct. And then you had all these high level jobs like you were SVP of events and marketing for big companies. And then you move to Texas, you were the EVP there, and then COVID hit, and you had to reinvent yourself. And so here you are, I love this.  You know, we know that living in Texas, there's not a good bagel to be found, except yours. And this is what's true. And I said to my hairdresser, which is how I found you. I was sitting there in the chair, you know, getingt my hair bleached. And I said to her, isn't there any like good bagel shops here? There's like none, no New York bagels. She goes, Oh, I just heard about this place in Trophy Club. And that was that. And so that's how I found out about you. But, Dan, tell us what happened. Tell us about your story of how you got to this place. Dan Hilbert 02:27 Yeah. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. I really, really appreciate it. You're pretty amazing. So I'm pretty humbled to be here. And yeah. So you know, like many people during the pandemic, the whole world was kind of flipped upside down. Patti Dobrowolski 02:40 Yeah  Dan Hilbert 02:41 And I was in corporate for 30 plus years. And the job that I had was specifically events, so you can imagine events went away. And so our hours were reduced every week and the entire company, you know, like many others, we had to let people go. I was reduced down to three days a week. Patti Dobrowolski 03:03 Wow. Okay. Dan Hilbert 03:05 I was grateful to still have a job. But I was used to working five days a week or more. And  Patti Dobrowolski 03:11 Yeah, for sure. In events, like that's the craziest life to have, honestly. Dan Hilbert 03:15 Yeah. Patti Dobrowolski 03:16 But it's so exciting. You know, that's what's true. Dan Hilbert 03:19 Yeah. And you know, you're used to traveling and going to other places. So, long story short, you know, being in quarantine. I always like to say that, and it's the truth. That food became the center of gravity for family. Right? That's what we surrounded to gather every day. Right? And coming from the northeast, my wife, Jennifer, who is my wife and business partner. When she was pregnant with our youngest, she always craved bagels. And my son loves bagels. Do the math there. And we were asking the same question you were. Where can you find a great bagel, right? And we're like, well, we can't. So let's just start making them, we have the time. So I started getting into bagel making. And the first few bagels were pretty horrific. They were pretty bad. Patti Dobrowolski 04:09 Were they like rock hard? Yeah, you would chew any for hours? Dan Hilbert 04:13 Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much it was...got your cardio and after you showed that. So I made bagels and I kept going, I kept going and what really drove me into it. Was it the idea? Well, you know, I'm going to do a bagel shop because there's no bagel shop here. It was actually the chemistry and the science of it, and how to lives and how you treat the dough. And if you tweak this ingredient, and you don't tweak this, how can it just affect the product.  I mean, it's miraculous. I mean, it's funny how nature works, but I really got into the chemistry of it. And then you know, I started getting better. And I started giving it to friends and they tasted it and they became a feedback loop and we kept at it - fantastic. And finally I met up with this woman in New Jersey, her name is Beth George. And she taught me how to take my recipe to the next level. She's literally a bagel consultant.  Patti Dobrowolski 05:12 Wow, wow, that's fantastic. Well, okay, so yeah, so you started off. And this is, to me, for people that are listening. This is really a design principle that he's talking about getting this feedback loop testing and trying, thinking about what you want to do, and then doing something about it. Right. But getting that instantaneous feedback. I mean, your family was your first feedback, but then getting your friends involved to give you feedback on that. Totally awesome. And then you ask someone for help, which changed the game completely. Right. Got a bagel consultant who could help you perfect it. Alright, so then what happened? Dan Hilbert 05:52 Yeah, so. But you're right. I mean, I didn't believe that I could do it by myself. I was like, you know, I could take it up to this point. I could really use the help. And, you know, I think, frankly, it's important not to be too proud not to reach out for help. And so I went to New Jersey, and I went to see her, we worked in our test kitchen. And we took her recipe and my recipe, and we blended it and created what is now Dan's bagels results. Patti Dobrowolski 06:22 Well, I just want to say that for people that are listening, you know, if you've lived in New York at all, uh, you know, I used to walk from where I lived at 56th and Broadway, I walk up to 72nd Street on the west side to get the best bagel I could. And not everybody has like certain kinds of bagels, right? An egg-everything bagel is something unique. And you can only get that really normally in New York, because most people don't make them.  And so when I went into the shop the other day, I was like, Look, egg everything bagels! That's incredible. And the bagels are so delicious. And on the wall, in your store itself. It says what to do with your bagels, if you're not going to eat them right away, how to freeze them and everything. It's got instructions everywhere there. So tell us how did you get from the bagel to the brick and mortar? Dan Hilbert 07:14 Yeah, first of all, with help from my family. I think the first thing is I probably wanted to move faster than I ended up going. Because I think one thing I learned was when you see an opportunity in the marketplace, and you love what you do, right? You kind of want to just jump in and just like, Oh, my word, I got to do this right away, or someone's going to come in and do it. Right? Right. Typically, that doesn't happen. At least that's not what I'm finding. And we took our time, you know, we went quickly, but we took our time. So we knew as much as possible to open up our shop. So we didn't make so many mistakes. Patti Dobrowolski 07:48 Yes, because the kind of mistakes you can make, you can put a bagel shop or something where there's not a walkability score, it isn't high. And so you can have something there, but nobody knows about you. And the amazing thing is that you came out of marketing. So you're really awesome at that piece of it as well. Alright, so you moved slower than you would have liked to, but you did all the research. And then what? Dan Hilbert 08:15 We reached out to family. Again, the idea of don't be afraid to ask for help. And we have great family. And we were able to tap into our funds, and tap into their graciousness, and get a sum of money to open up a brick and mortar. And then that's when the real hard work on the business side started. Wow. Patti Dobrowolski 08:37 Yeah. Dan Hilbert 08:37 Looked at looking for a spot, buying equipment, etc, etc. So our family has been just absolutely amazing. Now, we took our own funds, you know, and you kind of tap into your savings and things like that, and you go for it. But sometimes you have to. And if you feel good about something, yeah, which we did, we went for it. And every step along the way. There was nothing that said, Don't do this. Like we would go from one stage to another stage and another stage. And then we were waiting for something to say, “Now you better not do this!” But it never happened. And we just went went, went, went, and finally we found ourselves, working with family, working with businesses, working with suppliers, and now making bagels for great customers. Patti Dobrowolski 09:27 Yes. And wow I noticed. So how long have you been open now there in Trophy Club. Dan Hilbert 09:32 Three and a half months? Patti Dobrowolski 09:34 Three and a half months? Let me just tell you, when you go there on the weekend, there's a line out the door. It's crazy there people are insanely in love with your bagels. But here's what you did. You know, this was one of the questions that my wife, Julie, she's like, I wonder how they got the money to do that because it's not cheap to open your own brick and mortar. You really have to have funding. So you got your family's help with that. And your wife, Jennifer is right there. And are any of her family working there too? Are there other people that she knows, your friends working there? Or is it all people that you hired just off the street to help? Dan Hilbert 10:15 Majority they are folks that we hired, and I would say almost 100% of them are local high school students first half, stuff like that. The other portion are friends, we have friends who come in, our kids. When we initially opened up, they worked in the shop with us. So it was definitely a family affair, and still is. Patti Dobrowolski 10:34 Yeah, it's incredible to go in there. Everybody's so fun and friendly. That's number one. And then the food is really great. And so what of this part of it, the brick and mortar, what didn't you expect? And what's amazing about it, now that it's happening. Dan Hilbert 10:52 I can speak for Jennifer, my partner on this too is the physical demands that a job like this takes. You can expect the intellectual work, the bookkeeping, etc. But we did not anticipate how physically demanding this job really is. Patti Dobrowolski 11:11 Yes. Dan Hilbert 11:12 Hauling, you know, flour bags, I mean, we go through a half a ton of flour a week, we go through 600 pounds of cream cheese a week. Patti Dobrowolski 11:22 Wow. Dan Hilbert 11:23 And you can imagine, so it's really been the physical challenges. So we get to bed, we make sure that we keep ourselves healthy, and we do the best that we can. On the amazing side of things is, there's a few pieces of the day that I really, really love about the job. One is first thing in the morning. It's quiet. Yeah, I'm just there. I'm at the shop  Patti Dobrowolski 11:47 What time is that? That you're talking about first thing in the morning? Dan Hilbert 11:50 3am. Patti Dobrowolski 11:52 There we go. Yes, I love it  Dan Hilbert 11:55 So it's just a nice time for me to kind of, I guess, get calm and just kind of get to equilibrium. And then the next piece is when the bagels come out of the oven, I will never get sick of that. And then the third moment of the day is when the doors open, I get a real rush seeing people come in. So it's been amazing. So that's what I love about it.  Patti Dobrowolski 12:22 Yeah, that's fantastic. So this is your Monday and Tuesday are the days that you do baking, right? I know you bake every day. But what is it that happens on Monday and Tuesday that I was able to actually get your stores closed on those two days. But what's different about these days for you? Dan Hilbert 12:41 Yeah, that's a great question. Because there was some controversy. Initially, we said we were closed Monday and Tuesday. Yeah, the reason is, first of all our bagel takes 48 hours to make. It's unlike any bagel in the area. And all the cream cheeses, the lifestyle. It's everything Jen makes and it's wonderful. She prepares it, so there's a ton of housemade items that we make on Monday and Tuesday. And without those two days, we couldn't deliver that. Now obviously we're still working. We're close to customers, but that's what we do. We're still working getting the food ready. Patti Dobrowolski 13:19 Yeah, I love that. And those different flavors in the cream cheese are this is part of my favorites. You know, like, if I bring home a blueberry bagel with blueberry cream cheese, Julie goes crazy. That's her favorite of all of them. She's like, I want that one. And me you know the lox spread or just the locks combination. You sell locks there and I saw you posted on Instagram, you know picking up the lox. I love that. So everything's really fresh. It's really unbelievable. The bagels and there's so much love in it.  And in the store itself. It's really a friendly environment. So the moment you walk in that door, you're like oh, this is fun. And it's tiny. You guys, so if you're listening, this is a tiny bagel shop. So really the line does go out the back door. But I love that about it. I love that it's not a sit down shop a you just go in and get your bagels just like you would in New York, you'd line up to get them. You get them, you take them to wherever you're going.  And I've met the most incredible people in the line itself. I met a woman who is you know, going to run her first marathon who lost like 100 pounds getting ready. I mean, you know, and then I met these people yesterday that were talking about, you know, how they wanted to wasn't yesterday, the day before when I was there. They were talking about it was the first time there, they just heard about it. So word of mouth has gone crazy in Texas in our part of Texas where we live north Texas, and I'm just so excited about it.  But when you think about the kind of challenges like the physical labor is really a lot that is heavy lifting, when you think about some of those challenges and the challenges, you know, you said, well, at every turn the doors opened. But it's huge to decide to have a vision of something you want to do, and then leap into it. So what gave you the courage to think that you could do it? How did you get yourself to do it? Was there somebody in your life from your past, a mentor, or teacher or your past experience in those big companies? What helped you to do that, to be able to have courage to do it?   Dan Hilbert 15:35 I think I've always wanted to own my own business, right? If you'd asked me that, I would end up owning a bagel shop, I say you are crazy. But as long as I've been in corporate, I always wanted to leave and open up a marketing agency or an event agency or something that was very, I guess, quote, unquote, made sense. Oh, you know, that's a natural pivot.   Patti Dobrowolski 15:57 Yes. Dan Hilbert 15:58 Bagel shop is not? The thing is, is that, I don't know, it just happened, you know. But I guess what the difference is, is that, when you see it happening, you need to be aware of it, like stop yourself and say, Wow, this is happening. Maybe it's not that strange that it's happening, right? Maybe it's not that strange that it's a bagel shop. Right? Maybe that's what it's supposed to be. And this is exactly where I need to be. So all the sudden, I'm like, well, it ticks the box. Because I want to own my own business. Yeah, I'm pretty passionate about it, you know Patti Dobrowolski 16:33 and seriously, you are seriously passionate about it. Dan Hilbert 16:37 And then that from a business perspective does make sense. And so my left brain comes in, and I'm like, you know, logically this could work. But the courage is, it's such a great question, Patti, this is why this is such a great forum, is part of it is a drive to own my own business. But to have allowed that to be wide enough of an aperture to let that business define itself. Sometimes, like, if you want to do this, and you want to own a business, and you have your eyes set on a particular industry or something. Sometimes you actually swerve yourself away from what may actually be an alternative. Patti Dobrowolski 17:17 Yeah, or your true calling. I think this is what you're talking about. So yeah, so in a way, you know, Dan, when you think about this, this is, to me, the beauty of the universe, right? Is that your creative genius is kind of waiting out there, you know, and it's just waiting for you to wake up to whatever is the opportunity for you. And sometimes you get, like you said, a fixed mindset.  So you could have gone in and opened your own marketing events company, you know, you could have pivoted to do all their online stuff you could have, you know, done and certainly I work with tons of events and marketing people. So I know what people have been struggling with. So that was a big deal to kind of have watched your job get downsized, downsize, downsize, but you didn't just bemoan the fact of that, you're like, I'm going to learn something new, I'm going to learn how to bake bagels, because why not?  We don't have any here. And then it became this opportunity. So you know, when we think about making change in our life, we sometimes think that you have to have a vision of what the end goal is. But that's not always true. The truth is, you have to have an end goal of how you will feel, you'll feel excited, you'll feel passionate, you'll feel like I'm in it. And that's exactly what happened to you. I love that. You stumbled on this. And then it became something for you.   Dan Hilbert 18:43 Yeah. And it's very well said. That's exactly what happened. That's a great way to describe it. Yeah.   Patti Dobrowolski 18:49 And then, so in those moments, you talked about that quiet moment, in the morning, when you're just getting everything ready when you pull Julie and I back behind the counter there and talk to us about the dough, talk to us about the dough because what you said was like a metaphor for life. What did you say about the dough?   Dan Hilbert 19:10 I said that the dough needs to relax, and dough is alive. It is a living, breathing, active thing. And you can't just beat it up and keep beating it up, right? You got to let it relax and it needs its time. And then after it's relaxed, it's even better dough. And then you let it relax and it's better dough. And you know, I tell people after the bagel dough and the actual bagel shape is made. We put it in the cooler overnight, and I always say you know they're gonna go to sleep now and then get some rest. And then tomorrow they're going to be ready to go to work. And it's weird I know but I truly look at the dough as literally a breathing thing like something I take care of.   Patti Dobrowolski 20:00 I love this because this is what I'm always talking about is that the world is an energy field, we're all made up of energy. And so that dough, you let it relax, and then you let it relax some more. And this to me is, it's like us, you know, we need to relax, we need to relax more. And then we need to cool down a little bit and take a rest, so that we can get up the next day and do our job.  And that, for me, is such a beautiful way of looking at it. And you also talked about the science of it. There is so much science in baking. And you can try it. I don't know about you. But I tried for many years to make bread and I discovered I could never do it right. I just couldn't do it. I would beat it up. And then I would want it, I wanted it to go. I didn't want to wait until it rose. And I just didn't wait. Yeah.  So the fact that you're talking about this, and you showed us that, you know, you showed us how you make the bagel, and it is incredible. And now. So you're doing all these different kinds of bagels. Like where'd you get the idea to do a rainbow bagel? Because that was my favorite of course. Right? And then blueberry bagels. So tell me where did you get the ideas for these things that for me feel like your signature bagel?   Dan Hilbert 21:18 Yeah, the, the rainbow bagels were simply I just thought they were beautiful. And yeah, I have a baker friend who was kind of a mentor in the beginning, back in Connecticut. He's, you know, culinary and into bakery, you know, baker trained. And he made rainbow bagels. And he was kind enough to make a video for me on how to make it. And I fell in love with it. And I started making those. I started making different colors.   Patti Dobrowolski 21:48 Yeah, there's like I got my Halloween ones already.   Dan Hilbert 21:51 Yeah, yeah, Christmas is coming. And we're gonna do Hanukkah bagels. So those are coming up. So the blueberry bagels are a little different. Blueberry is I was always unsatisfied with the regular blueberry bagel because it was a bagel with blueberry dots. And like I couldn't get a blueberry in every bite. And so I ended up basically making a blueberry pie bagel that is made of blueberry pie filling so that every single bite you get in the bagel.   Patti Dobrowolski 22:22 It tastes like a blueberry. Yeah, it does. It tastes like a blueberry. It's fantastic. Yeah. So is that the one that you're most proud of? Or which one are you most proud of? Of your babies that you've birthed in your bagel shop?   Dan Hilbert 22:35 I think blueberry is probably the one I'm most proud of. Because it's so so different. There's some other recipes coming where literally, I substitute the water for something else. Like imagine. I'll share one thing here is I have a coconut bagel. Okay, yes, there is no water in it. It's just unsweetened coconut milk.   Patti Dobrowolski 22:57 Wow.   Dan Hilbert 22:58 It's like if you had strawberry cream cheese on that. It's like a daiquiri. It's like just sit on a beach and have a coconut bagel with strawberry cream cheese and you're set, you're set. So blueberry is I'm proud of that one. I'm proud of stuff because it's so unorthodox in terms of how it's made.   Patti Dobrowolski 23:14 And it'sdelicious. It's just so delicious. And so if you're in Texas, it's worth driving up to Trophy Club to get these bagels. And remember, they're closed Monday and Tuesday. So don't go on those days because you'll be gravely disappointed. You want to go Wednesday through Sunday It's a nice weekend jaunt, if you're coming up from any other part, Austin, you better come up here because you know, a Dallas drive on out here because it's beautiful. And it's gorgeous there in Trophy Club too now. Alright, so this is where you are right now three and a half months in. And so how's business going for you? How's it going?   Dan Hilbert 23:50 It's unbelievable. We are thriving. It's really, really good. And I think.   Patti Dobrowolski 23:55 Can you hear the exhaustion his voice when he says it really, really good. Remember, we're five hours into his day already. So yeah.   Dan Hilbert 24:03 So business is really good. We have, I think, hit on some really good food for really good people. I think what we'd learn before we open the brick and mortar with our friends and starting something out of our home during the pandemic really, really helped. I think without that, we'd be I think still trying to open, candidly. But it's been really, really awesome. And the staff, by the way. I mean, these young ladies and young men in this community, who go to high school here are just unbelievable. I mean, half of our folks it's their first job. And that's I guess the other thing that we didn't anticipate is how amazing these kids are. They are hustlers. They are rock stars. I mean.   Patti Dobrowolski 24:50 Yes, yes, they really are. What I was gonna say, here's an example. So you know what happens is sometimes your point of sale goes down because the computers crash, you know, it just happens. And so I was in there on Saturday, Saturday in the morning, and it crashed. And that team of yours, they were so incredible. They got over enthusiastic, they got everybody going. They just were so excited about being there and helping, that everybody in the shop, nobody noticed that it was happening, you know, you apologized and said, it'll take a second, it really took a very short amount of time and boom, we were right back to business. But the enthusiasm of the people that are working there, those kids that are working there, it was incredible.   Dan Hilbert 25:40 They're great. They're great. Ella, who was working the counter, I remember her saying it's like, okay, we'll just go old school, I'll just write down your order. And that was it. Like she just pivoted, she's like, Oh, okay, Dan, can you help me fix this? I'll just start writing down the orders. Oh, yeah, we do that, we used to do that before.   Patti Dobrowolski 25:59 That's right, before everything was automated. I love that. That's so cool. Now, so you're having great success three and a half months in, you're also you should tell them, this is a really big deal. That State Farm is like focused on you, they're featuring you as a small business. When does that happen? When will we get to see that?   Dan Hilbert 26:20 I think in mid December, we are, I guess, getting the final cut early December. So we have a State Farm agent here, Chastity, who does all our personal and business policies, and she nominated us for a small business showcase. And we are one in four that's been picked in the State Farm network.   Patti Dobrowolski 26:44 It's gonna be, your business is going to blow up at that point. This is just, people just know that the line is gonna, they're gonna have efficiency in place for it. But trust me, this is a big deal to be featured by them. So we're gonna see them, we're gonna see them everywhere, which is fantastic. I'm so excited for you, for that happening. So when you think about that, that's happening, that your business is going great. I want you to tell me, what's your vision of the future for you? Like, where do you imagine this going? You know, I like people to dream a little bit here. So tell me, what's your big dream?   Dan Hilbert 27:24 The big dream, you know, obviously, is to grow. But I'd like to grow where each shop is opened up by an operator, not an investor. Okay. And what I mean by that is, yes, you can build another Dan's bagels. But my requirement right now, frankly, is that you need to work in the shop, just like Jen and I, yeah, need to rely on it for your income, for your savings for your family, to really be invested in it, the idea of just investing in one and opening it and then hiring people. It's not how we built it. And I think it'll take a little bit away from the personal touch. And actually, it'll take a lot away from the personal touch.   Patti Dobrowolski 28:08 Yes, if you do it that way, with just investment, you know, it becomes almost like a franchise model, which is really not what you want. What you want to do is find somebody who's interested in the bagel, well understands it needs to relax, who knows how to put it in to chill. And so it gets ready to work. And that is committed to that. And that has their family engaged in the process? Because if you didn't have Jennifer and your kids on board with this, it wouldn't happen. Would it?   Dan Hilbert 28:36 No it wouldn't, it wouldn't happen. No, yeah, it would have been all very scary and polarizing. But that's not the case.   Patti Dobrowolski 28:45 No. So if you're listening, and you're somewhere in Texas, or anywhere else, for that matter, and you think to yourself, Oh, I think this is what I'm into, I love bagels, I'm really into it, I've been experimenting myself, you know, you better contact Dan, because this is and all his information is going to be in the show notes. So you can follow him everywhere. And I love that, everything that you're doing now.  So when you think about this trajectory of what happened with you and where you been, you must have some tips for people if they have a dream like this. So your dream is to see this grow. But in an organic way it feels like to me in an organic way, not in a way where you're just gonna we've seen some of these bagel shops in Texas and we've tasted those bagels and they're not like yours, right?  So we're gonna have this amazing experience no matter where they open. But what would you say to people who have like, you know, need to pivot and don't know quite what to do about it or have a dream and want to make it reality?   Dan Hilbert 29:49 Yeah, the first thing is to believe in yourself. I think anybody can learn anything. I really, really do. Yeah, also be very realistic. You're gonna have to put in the work, you're gonna have to put in the work. And I think thirdly is make sure you have a very strong network around you. You know, folks that want to pivot, in my opinion typically have an idea of what it is they want to do, you know, a general framework about which to go at it.  But I think it has a lot more to do with grit, and just the ability to go at it. But it's hard work and you get down sometimes, and just make sure you have that network around you. And you will have naysayers, you will have people who say you're out of your mind, I would say that happens two out of 10 times, so just forget that. So.    Patti Dobrowolski 30:47 But what's true is that, think about this stat, you know, nine out of 10, people who are facing a life threatening change, don't make it. Only one person out of 10 will actually pivot and do the thing. So it makes sense to me that you would have naysayers that would think you were insane and crazy, go back and get another job in events and marketing or open your own marketing firm or events firm. Why would you possibly do something as crazy as a bagel shop?   Dan Hilbert 31:14 Yeah, the other thing is that, let's say it doesn't work out. What I'm finding is you meet so many new people during the process. So all of a sudden, your network has expanded, and its and that network creates new opportunities that regardless if your business happened or not, you have new people, it's not like you have to go back and say, Hey, I'm back. You know, sorry, I left. You know, you've met new people. Yeah. And that in itself is a new path.   Patti Dobrowolski 31:46 Yes. And I love that because I met you there. And I feel like you and Jennifer, I'm like, Oh, those are going to be my new best friends. I'm going to get to know them, so that I can help them. Because anything I can do to help your success I'm in. I think you're incredible what you're doing. And the fact that you took us back there to show us all about the dough and those beautiful rainbow bagels, my favorite bagel in the bunch. I just love that.  And I think that you've provided something in the community that was missing. And it's not just the bagel, you provided this feeling of love and this essential element, you know, when I go in and purchase things, you know, food because food is such a big deal. I don't always have the experience that I have when I walk in your bagel shop, where I feel like people are friendly.  I feel like I meet people in front and back of me in the line, then I walk out something that is indescribably delicious, that I will seriously I can barely drive home. If I'm there and I ride up on my bike, I pull that bagel out and eat it right there. Right? Half of it anyway and then ride the rest of the 20 miles. But when I'm there with you know the car, I got to bring it home.  And I have to wait until I get home to open it up. And I can barely wait because it is incredible. So you, you also talked about that you get a little down. Tell me, what do you do? When you get down inside yourself? What do you do? Because I think this is the norm. This is the world we live in. Right? It's always shifting. Yeah. So what do you do?   Dan Hilbert 33:26 I think first thing is I was talking to children, right? They're good sounding boards. So that goes back to really have a network. And you know what, if your business partner is not your wife or husband, that's okay. Just make sure you have a partner that you can do the same thing. So talk it out, don't internalize it.  The second thing I do, is I go out to the front, when the stores open, get out of my head, just ask the data, wait a little bit, and I go out to the front. And I say hi. And I serve the customer. So I just get back into why you want to do this in the first place. Right? And listen to the great feedback. Don't listen to the shade that's being thrown.  That's the hardest part. Especially food. Right? Yeah, especially bagels. It's so cultish. But that's what I do? I go to Jen, we talk it out. And then I, when we open, I go outside and meet some wonderful people and just try to change the mood.   Patti Dobrowolski 34:33 Yes, that is so great. You came out a couple of times when I've been in there. So I love that and I think people love seeing you and seeing you know that it's you behind you are Dan of Dan's bagels, they want to know that person and have that connection. I love that you're saying, you know, talk to somebody instead of internalizing it because I think being an entrepreneur is a solo path in a lot of ways, you happen to have a great partner that you're doing, doing it with right and a great family that supports you doing it. And now you have all these friends and all these customers who are there to help you be successful. But there will be people that throw shade. That's just truth.  And so for you to know, in your heart that to go out and remember the why, that's what you're doing, you're just walking out there and remembering why am I doing this at 3am getting up and then talking to the dough, right. And so I love that. And I just have to say, this is in this podcast, you're the first person entrepreneur that I have really felt that you have a brick and mortar. And this is very different than many of the people that I interview, you know, they pivoted into being a blogger, or they pivoted into being a writer, they pivoted into or they didn't pivot at all.  They're doing stuff online while they have their day job. But this to me is really, it's the heart and soul of the world. You know, there are these places that are open. And the people who work there have put their heart and soul into whatever it is that you're consuming. So take the time to thank them.  And that's what I would say to you, Dan, thank you so much for everything that you and your family did to bring the most incredible bagel to somewhere near me where it's not even that far for me to drive and get it. I love it. I love it. I love it. So thank you for taking the time to be here with me this morning. What time do you get to go to bed? If you get up and you got to be there at three then what do you get a little nap in the middle of the day?   Dan Hilbert 36:43 That's funny. I tried to get to bed by seven, you know, it's a different workday. That's all it is. That's all it is. You know, my suppliers are there, you know, just at the same time. So, you know, my suppliers wake up at two. So yeah, the world still works at that hour.   Patti Dobrowolski 36:59 Yes, I know I used to mak,e when I lived in New York and I was an actor, you know, I made butter cream at night for you know, and I was my shift started at 1:30am. So I know all about it. So yeah, it was fantastic. Well, thank you so much for everything that you do. And everyone please check out the show notes. And if you live in Texas, or even if you don't and you're flying through Dallas Fort Worth, you got to go to Trophy Club and get one of Dan's bagels because they are incredible. Thank you so much, Dan, you are amazing.   Dan Hilbert 37:34 Oh, thank you. Really appreciate you having me. Thank you.   Patti Dobrowolski 37:38 Oh, it's been so great to see you. Okay, everybody, you know the drill. Go out today. Make it a great day, help somebody else in the world and do everything that you can to bring your talents into the universe. And until next time, up your creative genius. Okay, we'll see you soon. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on up your creative genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and Up Your Creative Genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dover volsky and the Up Your Creative Genius podcast. That's a wrap.

Deena Pierott is also a Social Impact Entrepreneur and the Founder of the award winning and nationally recognized STEM+Arts program for youth of color called iUrban Teen which has chapters in four states, and most recently launched Black Women in STEM 2.0. Ms. Pierott is also a diversity strategist and international public speaker. She has served on several boards and commissions including a Gubernatorial appointment to the Commission on African American Affairs in the State of Washington. She has been featured on the following publications: Government Technology, Essence Magazine, Working Mother Magazine, Black Enterprise, Ebony Magazine, Deliver magazine, Portland Business Journal, Geekwire, Colors of Influence, Neurology Now, the Chicago Tribune and on NPR. “We are standing on the shoulders of our ancestors who are slaves. It's a responsibility in this life to walk through it with dignity, grace and integrity.” “Stand up for others and be fearless with it.” “Raise your hand, ask questions, be engaged, even if you know the answer to it. Don't be a wallflower.”  Deena Pierott https://www.linkedin.com/in/dpierott  iUrbanTeen https://iurbanteen.org/ Do Better: Spiritual Activism https://www.amazon.com/Do-Better-Spiritual-Activism-Supremacy/dp/1982151277  Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  Timestamp [3:56] Meeting Deena Pierott and fling into Diversity, Equity and Inclusion [7:23] Working with innovative ways to change policy [8:44] How being a gay person in Texas is similar to Deena's experience [10:21] You have to be yourself in corporate America [10:55] How Deena started iUrbanTeen [14:26] Growing iUrbanYouth, iUrbanUniversity and working with Microsoft [15:57] Why Black Women in STEM was created [17:19] Making change in the world where anything can be done [19:20] It's never too late. What's your next thing? [21:22] Who is an inspiration to Deena? [22:56] How to tap into your creative genius? What's your routine? [24:35] You got to have skin in the game [27:52] Trick is to get into motivation and keep in momentum [28:20] Workaholic, selfcare, and dealing with trauma [31:30] Hurdles of being a black women founder [34:30] Sometimes its easier to stand up for others [36:27] What is the book you are reading right now [39:40] Biggest tip for someone making a change   Patti Dobrowolski 0:03 Hello superstars. Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast where you will gain insight and tips to stomp on the accelerator and blast off to transform your business and your life. I'm your host, Patti Dobrowolski. And if this is your first time tuning in, then strap in because this is serious rocket fuel. Each week I interview fellow creative geniuses to help you learn how easy it is to up your creative genius in any part of your life. Hey, everybody, it's Patti Dobrowolski. What's Up Your Creative Genius? Oh, my God. Today, I have just one of my favorite people in the universe. Deena Pierott. Now listen. So if you don't know who Deena Pierott is, I'm going to give you the lowdown on her and then she's going to tell us about herself. But first, I just want to say thank you to everyone who has been subscribing and listening to the podcast and writing reviews. You like drove us up in the charts! It's fantastic. I love it. And I'm so grateful I am because this podcast is all about making change: how you can make change happen. And I've invited all these changemakers who have decided to change the world for other people or for themselves or their business. And so Deena Pierott is a serious changemaker. I got to read you her bio. Okay, so she is a sought after diversity strategist, Talent Acquisition Professional and international keynote speaker, no doubt, she's created cutting edge DEI programs that yield results in impact. And you know, we need that. Okay. But here's what I want to say she served on a number of boards. She's really super amazing. And she started iUrbanTeen, which really helped to advance and allow for kids who didn't have access to computers to get them. And so I know you're going to talk a little bit about that. But before we go on, I want to say this, that she was honored to be acknowledged by President Barack Obama as a White House Champion of Change for technology inclusion, and by Ebony magazine on their Power 100 list. She is like been, in Essence Magazine, the top 50 black female founders. She's just amazing. I'm telling you, if I showed you this List of awards, you will be here forever. But my God, welcome to the show. Deena Pierott. You're amazing! Deena Pierott 2:41 Oh, wow. Thank you. I you know, when I hear that stuff, I'm going is that me? And now that you know, because a lot of times you're so busy working and creating and working and creating that you have to sometimes stop and look back at you know, I did this. Patti Dobrowolski 2:58 I know it. Deena Pierott 2:59 I did this. Oh, I'm ready to cuss I got it. Because Patti Dobrowolski 3:02 That's okay. i You should have seen somebody else I had was just F bomb every other word. Right? You're all right. Yeah. Here's the amazing. You are just incredible. And I met you because somebody decided that we should meet. We hooked up. We had lunch together with your granddaughter. Yeah. And we were both like, what are we doing in Portland? Wow, this place is so weird. And neither one of us live there anymore. So they're, you know, right. Deena Pierott 3:34 I know. There you have it. But I just think it was just an instant connection. I wonder how they might just like, Look, Patti Dobrowolski 3:41 I know, friends. I know. It is so good. And so I just been following. Honestly, I stalk you all the time to see what you're up to. And then I like, post "Deena Pierott, she's so amazing." So follow her and do stuff with her. Now tell us if you would in your own words, like tell us about you and how you got started doing what you're doing and you know, anything you want to share about it? Well, you know, Deena Pierott 4:03 it's I'm going to try to make it a shorter story because usually I tell this long story with Patti Dobrowolski 4:09 international keynote speaker that goes on. And Deena Pierott 4:13 I sometimes I think I'm a Baptist preacher. Patti Dobrowolski 4:17 Exactly. We love that. You know, Deena Pierott 4:19 I always like to say, what's the why, you know, What's your why and things that you do. And sometimes you end up in a space that you didn't think he would be in, you know, 1015 20 years ago. So I kind of fell into the Diversity Equity work back in the 90s when I moved up to Portland from Compton, California. Patti Dobrowolski 4:39 Alright, so there you go right now. Oh, now I'm from LA Oh, I know all about content. I know in the Portland is white, white. Deena Pierott 4:48 Girl. Let me tell you, it's the whitest white folks I've ever seen in my life. And I even started fading. I was not this color. But I guessed it But then I instantly saw this disconnect, I saw this inequity on how people of color, especially the black community was treated. Yeah, no, I was called the n-word. I don't know how many times and I'm going I've never been called that in California. Right. Not that it doesn't happen, but it didn't happen to me. Right. I also saw when working in the workplace, the inequities there as well. I also saw how my own people and other people of color kind of were a little complacent to things where they didn't know how or didn't feel like they needed to advocate for themselves. Patti Dobrowolski 5:36 Yeah. Would they just let it slide? Slide and just go, like, well, that's the way it is here. Deena Pierott 5:43 And see, that was not me. Oh, no, not me at all. And so I instantly started creating different forums and different initiatives at the City of Portland. And it was interesting, because I worked for a director at a bureau who was from the East Coast. And he wholeheartedly gave me the platform to do what I did right now. I felt that he truly trusted my decisions. Yes, he believed in diversity and equity. And it gave me the floor, let me run with it. And I ran like hell. So I was able to create, like, I created the city's infinity groups that they have employee resource groups, in partnership with the mayor's office, the commissioners and all that and made it really meaty. I created so many different initiatives. Oh, my gosh, I made sure that all of our interview panels were reversed. I ensured that all of our panels for contract reviews were diverse. And that was in the 90s Patti Dobrowolski 6:40 for for my cat popular. Wow, that's crazy. But I also Deena Pierott 6:43 advocated for myself, and that scared a lot of people, you know, because here's this woman of color, a black woman that is holding her own. And yeah, letting you get away with this. And so, but what made me sad, Patti was a lot of the employees from different bureaus would come to me, and they would go Deena, can you ask my boss, if I could do this? If I can go here? Patti Dobrowolski 7:05 Oh my God. I know that. Deena Pierott 7:09 You know, and it Patti Dobrowolski 7:10 makes me sad. Because that means that they don't feel empowered enough to go. They don't have the confidence to go maybe because somebody slapped him down. You know what exactly happened here? Yeah, fear of losing a job. Deena Pierott 7:23 Exactly. And so I will tell them, No, you can tell them. And this is what you say and how you say it. Yeah, I still wouldn't do it, I would still go to their directors and ask these questions. And so, but someone told me and I remember that this was in like the late 90s. One of my own folks from the black communities that Deena, you're too opinionated. You rock the boat too much. You have to make them comfortable, meaning I needed to make white people comfortable. And I'm like, I don't need to make anybody comfortable. Exactly. And I say hold on a second, what plantation? Did I just arrived on? Exactly right. And so but that kind of pushback from not only the white community, but my own community made me try harder. Right. And so that's, I was creating initiatives that were way ahead of their time, and people are just now catching on. Right. So that was my last. And that was my journey into the diversity, equity belonging inclusion arena. And so I still get asked from different companies to either Keynote or to lead their teams on edgy innovative ways to change policy. How do you look at this through an equity lens? Yeah. And how do you do it? Not me, not how I how do you do it? Right? Yeah, within those companies. So that was the DEI journey. Yeah. Now, let's go to iUrbanTeen. Patti Dobrowolski 8:44 Yeah, cuz I want to talk about them. I know. I love them. Well, the other thing is that, I mean, honestly, I'm a gay woman. So you can imagine my story isn't exactly the same. But it is about you. You have to come out every second. And then you know, I live in Texas now. So come on, people go meet my neighbors. And my neighbors were kind of like really skeptical about us. And then, you know, a young transgender kid came and left a card at our door and said, thank goodness, you have that sign in your front lawn? Because now I know that there's possibility for me. Deena Pierott 9:19 Oh, see, right. You never know. You never know who you're the role model for? Or what pathways you're helping to create someone how you're helping their voice be heard. You never know. But for you or just to think if you didn't speak up, if you didn't feel comfortable in your own skin. Think about the health issues, the mental health issues. Yes, I would be steaming inside. That's why I tell people say something. You feel that you just had a micro or macro aggression thrown your way. Say something. It may not be that instant. It may not be that same day. It may not be that week. That's some point. I need to come to Patti Say, Patti, you know what you mentioned to me what you said to me last week, blah, blah, blah. It really felt like a microaggression. That's how it felt for me. How can we bridge this? You know, how can we do this differently? You need to be comfortable enough to have that kind of conversation. don't own that shit. Okay? Patti Dobrowolski 10:18 Yeah, don't take it in. Don't, don't Deena Pierott 10:21 get in, Patti Dobrowolski 10:21 don't try to change yourself. This is me. Like I remember, I wanted to write a book called How to Be yourself in corporate America, because you have to be yourself have to be your own. You cannot. I mean, now, thankfully, some things are breaking open. But in big companies, it's still Deena Pierott 10:38 the same. I still say that's not the company for you if it's feel that way. And that's why I tell all of my folks and even our students in Ireland team. Yeah, one of the things we teach them is how do you best advocate for yourself? Patti Dobrowolski 10:50 I love that. So how did you start that? How did you start Ironman teen, Deena Pierott 10:55 you know, the story goes, I was commissioner here on Governor Greg gwass. Commission on African American Affairs back in 2006, to 2011. And at the time, all of our ethnic Commission's were talking about the opportunity gap issue, especially for male youth of color, you know, falling through the cracks, being marginalized, disenfranchised, not having a clear pathway. And I'm an entrepreneur, I'm not one to sit back and meetings and boards, and just talk something to death over and over overnight, Patti Dobrowolski 11:26 we got to get things going. We got to add some happen. You got to make some happen now. Deena Pierott 11:31 So I instantly started looking at my community is being how if our families knew about the Running Start program, which is an amazing program, which has been graduate high school with not only a diploma but with an associate's degree. The issue was a lot of our brown and black families weren't aware of it because the school counselors were telling them yeah, of course not. That's not and so we were making sure that happened. Then I was asked to participate on a chief information officer Council in Portland. And I told my friend Mark, who arranged these for these councils all across the country, but I'm not a CIO. He goes, I know that, but you're innovative and we need you. So I went okay. Works for me. And so I went to the very first meeting, Patti, and I was a little late getting to the party. And so I opened the door, and it's a roomful of white men. Yeah, so imagine me walking in there with an afro wig on. Alright, I had a big curly Afro wig. Yeah, leopard print jacket, lay Yes. And big hoop earrings. Patti Dobrowolski 12:34 I love it. Deena Pierott 12:35 I went, oh, i Whoa. Okay. So. So during that meeting, I was sitting there and I said to myself, Okay, so over here we have these youth who are being disenfranchised, marginalized. Yeah, clearly don't have a pathway for success. But in this room, is where the opportunities are. That's right. So how do I reach this divide? And during that lunch meeting, I thought up iUrbanTeen, and within six months, we launched with the help of some of those men in the room, who were still engaged with me after all of these years. Oh, that's fantastic. We launched iUrbanTeen in October 2011, exactly 10 years ago, the 13th year, and wow, that was incredible. And I knew from the first event that we had to keep going because I saw this magic happening, you know, during those sessions, because everything we do is fast paced, hands on. Kind of eclectic, cool, kind of funky. You know, all of that. But it grabs them. It grabs your attention. Patti Dobrowolski 13:38 Yeah, they'll switch a notch when they need you since we launched Deena Pierott 13:43 in that 2008. Yeah. 2011 We have since launched in Seattle, Los Angeles, Dallas, Houston. We've also we're hoping to launch in New York and also in Miami, Florida, as well as several other cities in 2022 and 2023. Patti Dobrowolski 14:02 Does that mean you get to go to those cities and launch they see now that's right and went to Texas Come on. You should call me because now Deena Pierott 14:12 are you in Dallas or Houston or I'm in Fortworth? I'm close enough I could go to Dallas Yeah, Dallas Yeah, well you know we're gonna be working with the city of Dallas on expanding all right ramps there so we go I will definitely let you know. Patti Dobrowolski 14:26 Yes, for sure. I love it. Alright, so you set up i Urban Youth, right. And you really helped them to create some programs that gave them access they didn't have before tools and resources and do you do internships too? How did you set the all that up? Deena Pierott 14:44 We do you know, we started just kind of grassroots having these paid internship programs in Portland for high school students. Yeah, with partnership with Cigna and then there was a company I Otis that was there as well. And now because we've had so many youth over the years that have been with our program, now they're in college. So we had to launch I Urban University. Oh, yeah. That is for over 18 crowd. Yeah. And so now do they get mentorship and things like this? Yeah, we have mentors that work with them. Yeah, we have diverse instructors that work with them. And in all the thing that for this Ironman University, that's where we have our scholarships. We have our paid college internships there. And now we are launching a support engineer training program with Microsoft that launches early next. I love it. Oh, that's so we have women we have black women in this first cohort aged 19 to 46. Yeah, that will be trained by Microsoft and also go through the certification process where they can get jobs starting at 80 to 90,000 a year. Oh, after 120 hours worth of trade. i Patti Dobrowolski 15:57 Oh my god, that's so fantastic. Now is this black woman in STEM? Deena Pierott 16:02 That's separate. That's separate. That's I mean, Patti Dobrowolski 16:05 oh my god, that is so incredible. Alright, so now talk about your latest thing, black woman in STEM, Deena Pierott 16:12 STEM 2.0. And we call it 2.0. Because, you know, we change the M and stem to manufacturing. because math is interwoven in all the other elements as well, and sciences and technology and engineering. Math is already interwoven in that. So we wanted to add manufacturing, because yes, that's a segment that sometimes overlooked in the whole stem arena. Definitely. So a couple years ago, some of my colleagues and I wanted to create a platform or an association for women that are in those spaces that we can brainstorm, have training sessions for, conferences for and basic networking, and also sisterhood. Sister fellowship. That's right. And so that's what we did. And so this year, you know, we were supposed to have our conference last year, but because in Texas, but because of COVID Yeah. Hectic, nutso course. So this year, we are having the conference, and it's a hybrid, where we will have in person events and virtual sessions. I learned this this Friday and Saturday here in Bellevue, you know, which is a community. Patti Dobrowolski 17:19 Oh, that's fantastic. Okay, I love that. All right. So look at how many I just so for those of you that are listening, so here is somebody that saw a need way back in the 90s. And then just built that, you know, went to bat for everything that she believes in, and then started to build the infrastructure to help other people. And this is what we're talking about is when you want to make change in the world, like yours is about big change in the world so that it will impact you know, your grandkids, it will impact your neighbors, your community. So these are the things that you did, but you are such an innovator because you sat in that room of all those. This is me, I'm imagining that because that's me too. I walk I know rooms with all white men, and I'm thinking Oh, yeah. Okay, now we're gonna have fun. Now I'm going to be myself and you guys are gonna love me at the end or else right? Yeah. And part of it is that you have to use your woo strength, but you also have to in that moment, you have to really build a bridge between your state of consciousness and theirs. And that's what you are. You excel in that when you do that, how do you do that? What is it that you do that you tap into in yourself to hear what needs to be done? Deena Pierott 18:40 Well, you know, I just kind of sit back. I think I blame my mom for making me think and understand that I could do anything. Right. And I believed it. I fell for it. Yeah. And so I still believe I still know nothing. I believe I know that I can do anything well, and you have Patti Dobrowolski 18:59 such that there's no reason why you shouldn't believe but what if you're a young person coming up? Or even if you've been working in a corporation for a long time or working for somebody else in the city for a long time, and you feel like, oh, yeah, yeah, but it's too late. And I'm almost going to retire. Why would I want to rock the boat? What would you say to them? Deena Pierott 19:20 Oh, it's never too late. It's never too late. Like I just turned 63 You know, on October 6, and I'm are ready. I know. I'm already thinking about what's the next best thing? What's the next thing I could do? Right? I don't know how some of us fell into that trap of okay, well, now you're over 50 So it's time to slow down. Everything is downhill from there. I don't know who sent us that Patti Dobrowolski 19:45 Milan. Oh, no, that was really big. Yeah. Now, you know, I'm older than you. So that's fantastic. I'm like, Yeah, I'm a year older than you. And so we look good girl. We look. I'm just saying and part of it is that We want to make sure that we're evolving. This is what you're saying is, what's my next thing? So that I want to know, like, when you have a vision for yourself, what's interesting to you right now? What are you fascinated with? That you can tell us about? Deena Pierott 20:16 Well, you know, I think that for me, because I'm so people centered, I really want to do something if it is my own, like digital online magazine for women over 50, you know, women of color over 50, particularly, because that's an audience that's overlooked a lot of times, I'm kind of a, like a lifestyle brand type of thing that I want to do I want to get into podcasting, you know, like you. So that's what I feel that the next layer is for me. Yep, thing that's really cool and fun. I Urban Teen will always be at my heart. But you know, I'm building up the infrastructure now where I have now managing director for Portland and southwest Washington. Patti Dobrowolski 20:57 Well, I see you have your infrastructure in there and the people that can do it. And Deena Pierott 21:03 pretty soon it's when do I have all the gears in place where I can just kind of sit back? And just so funny, Patti Dobrowolski 21:10 because when I saw you in Portland, you talked about that, then. So what's true is you have multiple gears now, before you were just working one gear for a while Deena Pierott 21:21 working here, right? Patti Dobrowolski 21:22 Now you got four gears all going at the same time. So that's Yeah, I think will be really, really amazing to see. And you know, who is inspirational to you right now in the world who you look out and you see, and you think, Wow, that is cool. I like that. whatever they're doing, is there anybody that is a role model for you, either now or in the past that really has helped you, and helps you as you get going on ideas? Do you have like your little cadre of sisterhood that you talk to about things, do you? Deena Pierott 21:54 Well, you know, and that's interesting, because I think back on the person, that really was my inspiration, and I know, it may sound a little corny and all but it was my mother, you know, and she passed away suddenly, in 2010. I am such a rogue, that there really isn't anyone out there that I see that I want to learn from or any thing, it's sad to say, but it's sometimes when you are so much into your own. Patti Dobrowolski 22:27 Yep. It's I know, Deena Pierott 22:30 I have a lot, a lot, a lot of mentees or people women that want to consult with me on how do I do this? How do I do what you do? So but there's not a whole lot of others that I see that I can connect with, or brainstorm on. Because usually what I'm thinking about and what I'm envisioning, is so far out there that no one's been there yet. Patti Dobrowolski 22:56 Yeah, I love that. That's fantastic. And so you really what you're doing is you're tapping into your own creative genius, that flow. So you just unlock that. And so tell me, what's your daily routine that you go through? That helps you unlock your creative genius? What Deena Pierott 23:11 do you do? Well, you know, what I do is I just sit back in early morning hours when it's dead silent, and there's no noise, there's no nothing. I haven't even made coffee yet. I just sit in silence. And I just envision what I already have in place, how I can tweak it, how can I make it better? How can I do this? At the same time? How could I add in this creative edge into this? That's not been done before? You know, so I just kind of invid before I write down anything? Yeah, I first have a vision for it. Yeah. Then once the vision clicks, I'll start creating an outline for how I want to do this, then the next step is how am I going to implement this? You know, what's the impact on the students on the companies that I work for in the DEI space? Yeah. And sometimes when I'm even working with the companies like right now, I was working with a global tech company. And we did something totally different that they hadn't done before yet, right? Sometimes I'll work with them. Like, this is what I'm thinking, what how can we do this? So I'll get there. Like I tell companies, you've got to have some skin in the game, I can sit there and talk to you. I'm blue in the face around diversity and equity. But you've got to roll up your sleeves, and you got to help me make this happen. Patti Dobrowolski 24:31 That's right. Because it's not gonna happen without them. Yeah. Because otherwise you're just a consultant coming in. And same thing, if I'm drawing a picture of the vision and nobody's attached to it, then sure, nobody cares. Deena Pierott 24:44 And so if I give them the tools on how do they do this internally, where they don't even need me anymore, a lot of times you'll get diversity, people thinking or saying that they're diversity experts and consultants that intentionally want to keep that company so they can keep getting a Patti Dobrowolski 25:01 paycheck. Oh, no, that's so what is that doing? Deena Pierott 25:05 What is that mindset doing for this next level of students coming through? I haven't seen that might land at your workplace. Right? Yeah, exactly. What is that doing for my sons who are in the workforce now? Yes. What is that going to be doing for my granddaughters who had some yesterday and your workspace? I'd rather I'm this way. And that's why I don't think I'll ever be monetarily rich. I'd rather give them all the tools they can do right now. Yeah. And happen, attach it to action, create it, attach it to metrics, yep, with everything, letting them know where they need to pivot, so that they can be equitable and inclusive workspaces. Don't keep paying me for years and years to keep you sick. Yeah, Patti Dobrowolski 25:46 that's right. Well, and one of the things that I'm listening to is that so you let the ideas germinate about where you are, and you envision how you could make a better so this my friend, Dawn calls this spinning the universe, you're really spinning the universe. Now using your imagination, then you get a plan, you get it down on paper, so that you've got something so that you know, okay, this is what we're going to do. And even if it's with somebody else, you get some partnership in there, so that you can make it happen. So you're not the driver of the activity, because the thing that you can be the driver at the beginning, but you don't want to be the driver for That's right. I Deena Pierott 26:25 always say this is the hardest thing to do when you are someone like me and like you and that very creative space, is find people that share your rhythm. Yeah, right. Oh, that's right. Find people that share your rhythm. I spent so many years trying to consult with people who had no idea what I really wanted to do. Right, but I just knew that what they were saying didn't settle. Well. I'm like, yeah, yeah. And that's crazy. Oh, man. Thank you, man. Oh, thank you. So it took me a long time. And it's still really hard to try to find those people who share your rhythm, right? You're one of those people that share my rhythm. Yeah, we got to get things going girl stuff off the bat, right back and forth. In an hour sit in ideas, right? Patti Dobrowolski 27:11 That's right. But then we got to go do them. We got to get people to help us do them. Like somebody in the background putting together your peloton machine right now, is that right? So if you're listening and you hear like the sound this clanking so Dina warned me that they were going to put up her peloton now and so whoever's back there doing that, you know, keep going and just know that this is what happens in a creative space. You have got to get everything happening at the same time, because there's not enough time in the day. Deena Pierott 27:41 Yeah, the only thing Patti is I'm looking at them putting this peloton treadmill together now I'm going to have to use it. I'm like, Oh, yes, Patti Dobrowolski 27:52 you're gonna have to use well, and and you know, I would say bite off just a small piece of that, like, I just start on things like that. Well, what's true for me is that I know if I don't dive full in and set a goal, that seems like whoa, I wonder if I could do that, then I will really get motivated to do it. I may not do it the next week, but I will that initial week getting myself going. So it's the trick to keep yourself motivated. And that's how it is with change, too. Right? You see something that needs to be changed, you get super excited at the beginning. But how do you maintain your own motivation? How do you maintain it? I want to know how you maintain, Deena Pierott 28:31 you know, for me that and I gotta be honest, until they transparent, this whole self care thing sucks for me, because I don't know how to do it. I have such a workaholic. But I also learned about myself as I have to do this self care, I have to learn this piece as much energy that I'm putting into these ideas and these businesses. Yes, I have to put that in me. You know, I have been through a lot of trauma over the last 20 years. One of the coping mechanisms for trauma is to stay busy. Yes. So I stayed super busy, you know, and it wasn't until my husband that my son's father passed away of cancer in 2019 that I actually hit a wall. I hit a wall and I basically almost had a nervous breakdown. And I realized at that point, I said to myself, I'm a smart enough woman to know that I gotta walk through this trauma. Right? Yeah, trauma that I have been suppressing for over 20 years. And that was a constant it was a continued I just got busier just wrapped more up. Yeah. Then I thought about what I created under trauma. Right. The White House under trauma. I'm honored in the Lincoln Center in New York with Oprah Magic Johnson all of them because if I ever team under trauma, right, I've been all these things under trauma. And I think that's why if they all didn't really resonate with me, well, Patti Dobrowolski 29:53 they don't really sink in. You're like yeah, I did that. I know that because I was on Broadway things like this. You Her major accomplishments you just sort of brushed him off. Yeah. Don't let them soak in. Yeah, yeah. That's great. Thank you so much. And then on to the next thing, because if you slow down too much, yeah. And you have to actually feel what's going on inside of yourself. Exactly. And really takes the passing of somebody who is important to you, to wake you up. I think sometimes, for me, it did. It was when my mom died. That was when I woke up. I couldn't get out of bed. Honestly, I couldn't get out of bed. I was just like, I don't know, you know, what's the point? And then I had to deal with all the things that had happened in my life. Right? Yeah. Deena Pierott 30:37 Well, that's what I've been going through over the past couple of years, since his death is just sitting still and going through the things like, you know, the things that have happened over the years me being discriminated against in the workplace, and, and and all the pushback that I've had to deal with, and it has been a heavy lift. Yeah, me with all of my businesses here in the Pacific Northwest. Patti Dobrowolski 30:59 Oh, you know, got it got to be because if you're in LA, you'd have our alliances. Deena Pierott 31:06 Oh, yeah. Even if I was in New York, Boston, Chicago, Patti Dobrowolski 31:09 any of the big cities, Dallas to the Dallas, Deena Pierott 31:13 I just look at how well we're so embraced in Dallas and Houston. And you know, I just came back from Boston, that was in Boston in Portland, Maine. And it was a totally different vibe there. Yeah. You know, I loved it. So I feel that being a black female founder here in the Pacific Northwest, there's a lot of hurdles to go through. Yep. You know, a lot of hurdles. And it was a harder path to get here. However, I'm the total, optimistic, idealistic person, I feel that all of that struggle, all the traumas, things that I've gone through all of the hardships, helps make me the mosaic of who I am. Patti Dobrowolski 31:57 Oh, it is, and you are so beautiful. You're such a beautiful mosaic that that is what true. And what I love about what you said, is that, you know, the composite of view. And all of us really is all of the things that we've had to go through all the, you know, all the N word, in your case, all the bottles thrown at me out of somebody's car window in LA, you know, all that stuff. Those are the aggressions that happen. And what's true is you understand your essence in the universe for good. You know, you're a vehicle for good. And so you take all that and just say, This is who I am. This makes me empathetic, right? This is where my empathy comes from. And this is where my need for connection. And also, this is where my I don't know about you, but my fuel to make change in the world comes from and you're spot on. You are just so incredible. And I'm so grateful that our paths crossed, because, gosh, I mean, you've just been doing so many things. Since I saw you in Portland. You were like a little lifeline to me in that weird deli that we were eating with your cute little granddaughter. So much older now. Leila Berg. Yeah, she's Deena Pierott 33:19 nine years old. She will be 10 Pretty soon. And you know, crazy. I look at her and I see true leadership in Yeah, yeah. I was honored at Clark College a couple years ago as Iris award winner. Yeah, cool. When in the audience, my son, his wife, and the girls were the audience. And wow, when I was doing the acceptance piece, when I was accepting it, I looked over at my granddaughters, and I asked the audience, you know, can I have a moment I have a message I want to give my granddaughter Oh, my God. And they said yes. And so I asked my son, but Leila up on stage. And I said, because the other ones are way too little. And so I said, Leila, I said, I hope that one day you'll understand why your grandmother is being honored here tonight. And I also hope that you understand the pathway that I'm trying to create for you. I said, Leila, we are standing on the shoulders of our ancestors who were slaves. So it's a sponsibility in this life, to walk through it with dignity, grace, and integrity. Oh, you promise me you'll do that? And she shook her head. Yes. Oh, I blew her kiss. She blew me a kiss. The audience was crying. Oh, Patti Dobrowolski 34:30 I bet. Oh, my God. Deena Pierott 34:31 And I said, ladies and gentlemen, in 20 years, she'll be the one receiving this award. So let's give her a round of applause. Oh, I love that. Oh, it's speaking it into existence. Well, I just reader, I see such a leader in her and I see the empathy, the empathy in her there's a young boy in her classroom at school elementary school, who's autistic. And he says if the other kids fully handled Leila is the only one who's nice for him and stands up for him. Patti? I almost cried because I said, she's got it. Patti Dobrowolski 35:02 That's it. Got it. She got it. She got the gene and the kids got Deena Pierott 35:06 the gene she has a friend and the leadership, stand up for others. And be fearless with it, right? Patti Dobrowolski 35:14 Ah, love it, stand by others and be fearless. With it, that should be all of our call to action, you know, really stand up for others and be fearless with it. And so even if you can't stand up for yourself, be sure to stand up for other people, because it makes a huge, huge difference. It really Deena Pierott 35:32 is easier because sometimes they're more skeptical to stand up for themselves and advocate for themselves in the workplace. Yeah, but it's easier to advocate for someone else, you know, yeah, to see that lifeline for someone else as well, if you do it the right way. Patti Dobrowolski 35:47 Yeah. And I think we need it. I mean, I think that if you know, so many people have been a mentor or an a door opener for me, in my life. And I think for you, too, you know, we get little doors open, and then we open the door way wide. For other people. We're like, let's get okay. Now everyone knows. Deena Pierott 36:07 Let's go I want to do right. And the thing is, is that people need to like for me, I advocate for everybody. It doesn't care what color you are. What gender what anything. Yeah, I believe in fairness, I don't like to see an equity placed anywhere for anyone, you know. And so that's why I was fighting the good fight for Patti Dobrowolski 36:27 fair, do you Yeah, you're so amazing. You just hear I'm telling you, you're so amazing. Now what I want you to tell people what you're reading right now. So they know what they should be reading to? Deena Pierott 36:40 Well, right now I'm reading a book called do better. And it's all around advocating for others advocating for yourself, creating equity, where you are, I was just at the Harvard bookstore in Boston. And I saw it and I bought it. And so I just started reading it. Very good read. The other book that I just listened to on audio was cast about the cast. Oh, yes. Yeah, it's long. Listen, and you really sometimes you got to play it back. And I'll, but it's a very, very good, there is another book that I'm also kind of in between around equity in schools. So I'm always reading that kind of, Patti Dobrowolski 37:18 well, you got to you have to, and everybody should be reading that, you know, Yeah, gotta just change your mindset all the time. Keep up. That's the thing. The other piece about change is, you have to keep up, keep up with what's important for you, and try to push yourself into areas where you don't feel comfortable, so that you can walk into that room filled with white men, and you can get what you need from the audience there. Right. Oh, God. Deena Pierott 37:47 And you know, it's so funny. When I walked into that room that day, I kind of did the whole church thing on here I am so that they can pause the meeting. Yeah, I could walk straight through to the front room. And I tell some of the guys there. Can you move over? So I put a chair here, because there was chairs in the back of the room. But Patti Dobrowolski 38:05 oh, yeah, well, back. Okay. That's right, exactly. Deena Pierott 38:09 What up to the front. I had a move, but a chair there. And but what are the things that I tell women and people of color, when you're in those kinds of situations where you are one of none of other people is to be engaged? Don't be that wallflower. So as soon as it came time for questions, yes, I was the first one that raised my hand. And I asked a question that I already knew the answer to. But I did that. And I do that a lot of times in places that they can see I'm here, I'm engaged. I'm a part of this group. Patti Dobrowolski 38:38 That's right. That's right. I love it. So raise your hand, ask a question. Even if you know the answer to even if everybody knows you're in the room and make a play, make it happen. And I would say that's true, even if you're on Zoom. Because in zoom rooms, it's really important to show up. So you turn your camera on, you got to look your best. And you got your hand up and you got to put comments in the chat. That yeah, that's fantastic. I've been Deena Pierott 39:06 on something zoom things where it's a lot of people and these people are just sitting there like quiet. Are they Patti Dobrowolski 39:10 advocator Tommy, would you entertain me, please? Yeah, I need some entertainment. Yeah. Deena Pierott 39:15 And there's a way to have that engagement even on Zoom or whatever platform Yeah, data. So you know, in fact, we're having our stem a wean for the kids. We've had a couple of virtual stem conferences for the kids. That's fantastic. Fast paced, they're fun. They're this and yeah, they're they're engaging, you know, and also, I think we've pretty much mastered the engaging online presence, you know, stuff so Patti Dobrowolski 39:37 well, you were engaging before when I came in drew with your kids. I mean, that was really, that was fantastic. I love doing that. So thanks for asking me to do that. Oh, they loved it, too. It was super fun now. Okay. So give us one last tip before we let you go. What's your one tip about change that you would tell to people say to people, you know people who are wanting to make a change What do you recommend that they Deena Pierott 40:01 do? I would recommend that they learn how to embrace it. Change is inevitable. Yeah. So my biggest tip is to be comfortable with change. Be comfortable with the pivot, always be that Constant Learner. I mean, I truly embrace change, even if it's things that I have no control of. I try to understand it and all but even for myself, looking at what the peloton that's going to be changed for me because I admit, I've got to embrace look, I've got to embrace it. I'm going to look like Beyonce in about six months. Okay, that's right. But embrace you can you will like either, like kind of grandma. So. But yeah, so I can't imagine not looking forward to the future and change that happens. I think that when you are afraid of change, when you try to stop change, I think that's when you stop growing. Patti Dobrowolski 40:55 Yeah. And when you start, then you're going backwards, you know, they're Deena Pierott 40:58 going backwards, Patti Dobrowolski 41:00 you either go forwards, or you go backwards, or you go backwards, so you got to keep going. Deena Pierott 41:05 My tip is to embrace it to embrace change. Patti Dobrowolski 41:09 I love it. I love you. You're so fantastic. I love thank you so much for spending this time with us listeners, we're gonna put into the show notes how you can get a hold of Deena Pierott because you're gonna want to follow her on Instagram and Facebook, wherever all LinkedIn all the places that she is. So look in the show notes. And I just take this to heart what she said embrace change, we live in a time of flux. If we're not going to get to a new normal flux is our new normal. So get good at change. And I can't wait to see what you do. So if you liked what you heard, you know, be sure to write a review about it or send me a DM on Instagram because we'd love to have you back and loved that you tuned in today to listen to all about Deena Pierott. I love you Deena. Thanks for being here. All right for having me on. My pleasure. Thanks so much for listening today. Be sure to DM me on Instagram your feedback or takeaways from today's episode on Up Your Creative Genius. Then join me next week for more rocket fuel. Remember, you are the superstar of your universe and the world needs what you have to bring. So get busy. Get out and up your creative genius. And no matter where you are in the universe, here's some big love from yours truly Patti Dobrowolski and the Up Your Creative Genius Podcast. That's a wrap

Introducing our next guest for our Mentor Series, Patti Dobrowolski @upyourcreativegenius! Patti is a TED Speaker and Visual Change Activator, helping people to visualize and make their dreams a reality by simply drawing their future.In this week's mentor episode, Patti talks about the science of drawing images and the scientific truth to vision boards, manifestation and visualization. Patti's work first came to notice when her TED talk was chosen as one of the best in the year and has gathered more than 6M views today!In this week's episode, we sit with Patti to talk about how you can draw your future and make it a reality by using your biggest superpower, your imagination.

Sunni Brown is a social entrepreneur who has been named one of the “100 Most Creative People in Business” and one of the “10 Most Creative People on Twitter” by Fast Company. She is the best-selling author of Gamestorming and The Doodle Revolution, a keynote speaker, expert meeting facilitator, book coach and dedicated Zen student. Her TED Talk has drawn more than 1.6 million views and her work has been featured in The New York Times, The New York Post, The Wall Street Journal, Time, and WIRED, as well as being featured twice on CBS Sunday Morning and on The TODAY Show. She is currently the Doodler-in-Residence at MURAL. Time Stamp [2:40] How Sunni would describe herself [4:25] The importance of zen and how Sunni has applied it to her life [5:54] Trauma history and how it affects creativity [6:20] The art of the pivot [8:41] Deep Self Design, and what happened [12:13] The power of a true calling [13:54] Women and finances, financial self-worth [14:53] Sunni's pivot to a book coach [17:03] What Sunni does now, and the support around life changes [18:30] Sunni's qualified prediction of the future [19:27] The secret of the pivot [20:28] Energy fields and how to tap into them [21:37] Testing things out, spinning the universe [22:37] Cognitive rigidity, and how to overcome it [25:19] Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett [27:31] Resonance of the system [29:50] Sunni's dream life Sunni Brown Website https://www.sunnibrown.com/ Deep Self Design https://www.deepselfdesign.com/ Follow Sunni Brown on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sunnibrown/ Follow Sunni Brown on Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunnibrown/ Books written by Sunni: Game Storming with Dave Gray and James Macafuno Doodle Revolution Books Sunni has read or attempts to read: Ishmael by Daniel Quinn Brave New Work by Aaron Dignan Heroine's Journey Workbook by Maureen Murdock Atomic Habits by James Clear Designing Your Life by Bill Burnett Kiss Me Like a Stranger by Gene Wilder Follow Patti Dobrowolski - Instagram https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Up Your Creative Genius https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/

PATTI DOBROWOLSKI is an Author & Speaker, Business Consultant For Fortune 100 Companies, Founder Of Your Creative Genius From Forth Worth, Texas, USA.WATCH IT ON YOUTUBE: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7EB0AZar4sU4Md1PO76KHA✅ For business inquiries contact me at thecreativetalkpodcast@gmail.com✅ Let's connect:INSTAGRAM:https://www.instagram.com/thecreativescoopjansantos/FACEBOOK:https://www.facebook.com/thecreativescoopjansantos/

We're filming a live podcast on clubhouse and we're going to dive deep into this subject. If you want to up your creative genius and draw your future, so that you feel inspired to go out and create the future that you want then Patti Dobrowolski is the person to listen to. In this episode, listen as they discuss: Ideas and thoughts Perception of the universe and thoughts on being a genius My perception of the universe is that you're born into a universe with the full potential to become and be anything you want. But you're influenced by the environment that you're in and the world is filled with things to distract you from being your true self.” - Patti Dobrowolski My genius is what the Romans believed; everyone is born with a genius. Everyone has this moral authority within them, and that's what you are listening to. And my genius is my future self. - Pete Cohen Imagination is the language of genius. Your imagination is how your genius self is communicating to you. Do you agree? Send us a message and tell us what is your biggest takeaway about this episode. Know more about Patti through: Website: https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ ------------------------------------------------- You can take advantage of our new exclusive free training; "How to get ahead, build long-lasting confidence and stay productive in four simple steps” This reveals; ​Why most people never build true long-lasting confidence and never get to live a happy, healthy life ​The exact strategy productive people use to become a master of their own time ​The tools you NEED to create YOUR BEST YEAR EVER https://coaching.mi365.me/workshop All our podcasts are available at: https://petecohen.com/podcast/ I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!  Helping and coaching people in my expertise. It is VERY satisfying to change people's lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence, and mindset.    Connect With Me! Come and join our free Pete Cohen Podcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ Follow me on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/ About Pete Cohen: Pete Cohen is one of the world's leading life coaches and keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete's presentations. He has professionally impacted the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes, and everyday people.  Pete focuses on the importance of closing the gap in our lives between where we are and where we want to be, both personally and professionally.  It's then all about coaching you to remove the obstacles that are in your way and helping you install the habits of success.   Pete is the author of 19 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY, and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years. His new book Inspirators - Leading The Way In Leadership is available for free here - https://book.petecohen.com/   Check out my brand new 30 Day Kick Start Challenge In just 30 days, I will show you the Exact "Step By Step" Method to redesign your life like the top 1%. Feel extraordinary and take hold of life's boundless opportunities Mi365 30-Day Kick Start Your Life Let me guide, coach, and support you. Just give me 30 days and I'll give you the exact step-by-step method for getting you on your A-game and staying there for 365 days! Every day you'll have access to a new training session, introducing you to a new idea or concept. By investing the time each day, the programme will build over the 30 days to put you in a powerful place in your life.

Welcome to the Up Your Creative Genius. I'm your host Patti Dobrowolski. New episode drops every week. Be sure to signup, subscribe, download, rate and review the podcast. Who is Patti Doborowolksi? Patti Dobrowolski, author of 9 Tips to Up Your Creative Genius and DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life, is founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change. A critically acclaimed comic performer, three-time TEDx and internationally recognized speaker, writer and business consultant, she has brought innovative visual practices to Fortune 100 companies, government, not for profits and small businesses. Patti holds an Masters in Psychology with an emphasis in Drama Therapy from the California Institute of Integral Studies. Her large format strategic illustrations grace the walls of Nike, Microsoft Inc, Starbucks, Pepsico, FedEx, Turner Broadcasting, FritoLay North America, Hoffman LaRoche Inc., Providence Health Services, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, USDA and The Seattle Space Needle. https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/

How It Came Home - England We Love YOU In this podcast, I discuss with Patti  Dobrowoiski live on Clubhouse, the importance of using the imagination to win in life.  She is nationally acclaimed comic performer, high-performance business consultant, speaker, strategic illustrator and newly minted author. Patti Dobrowolski spends her time focused on new neuroscience discoveries that leverage the power of imagination and visuals to actualize a vision of the future. Dobrowolski works with teams and leaders of Fortune 500 companies and nonprofits around the world to inspire them to create new and different strategies while literally capturing the organization's vision in a 4' x 8' illustration. Follow Patti at https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ You can take advantage of our new exclusive free training; "How to get ahead, build long-lasting confidence and stay productive in four simple steps” This reveals; ​Why most people never build true long-lasting confidence and never get to live a happy, healthy life ​The exact strategy productive people use to become a master of their own time ​The tools you NEED to create YOUR BEST YEAR EVER https://coaching.mi365.me/workshop All our podcasts are available at: https://petecohen.com/podcast/ I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. It is VERY satisfying to change people's lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence, and mindset.    Connect With Me! Come and join our free Pete Cohen Podcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ Follow me on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/ About Pete Cohen: Pete Cohen is one of the world's leading life coaches and keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete's presentations. He has professionally impacted the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes, and everyday people.  Pete focuses on the importance of closing the gap in our lives between where we are and where we want to be, both personally and professionally.  It's then all about coaching you to remove the obstacles that are in your way and helping you install the habits of success.   Pete is the author of 19 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY, and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years. His new book Inspirators - Leading The Way In Leadership is available for free here - https://book.petecohen.com/ Check out my brand new 30 Day Kick Start Challenge In just 30 days, I will show you the Exact "Step By Step" Method to redesign your life like the top 1%. Feel extraordinary and take hold of life's boundless opportunities Mi365 30-Day Kick Start Your Life Let me guide, coach, and support you. Just give me 30 days and I'll give you the exact step-by-step method for getting you on your A-game and staying there for 365 days! Every day you'll have access to a new training session, introducing you to a new idea or concept. By investing the time each day, the programme will build over the 30 days to put you in a powerful place in your life.

Draw to change your life and grow   We spoke about Patti's performance artist background, how drawing is essential but it must not be beautiful and can just be basic to be effective, how pictures can inspire change in our life via small daily steps, how ugly fonts (and maybe ugly pictures too) attract more attention, why disruption and turmoil can be good for your development, how to get off the hook with having to draw very as an artist, how to deal with limiting beliefs and much more. Here is the link to Patti's TED talk 'Draw Your Future' - https://youtu.be/zESeeaFDVSw In that video you can find the description of the '3 Bold Steps' visual template.   Patti  Dobrowolski   Patti Dobrowolski is a nationally acclaimed comic performer, high-performance business consultant, 3-time TEDx speaker, and the author of 9 Tips to Up Your Creative Genius and Drawing Solutions: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life. Patti works with teams at all levels to up their creative genius and capture their vision and strategy into huge, beautiful visuals with everyone from small business owners to global clients Nike, Starbucks, Microsoft, Amazon and the Gates Foundation, and S/MB owners. She is known for her high energy, quick wit, and commitment to helping people and businesses achieve their goals.   Check out Patti's website to learn more about her work:   https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/  and her Instagram account: https://www.instagram.com/upyourcreativegenius/    SUPPORT THE PODCAST   This show is brought to you by the Visual Thinking and Sketchnoting Boot Camp Udemyonline course developed for you by Yuri Malishenko. This unique and highly practical signature course will teach you all the necessary elements that you need to employ visual thinking for your profession. You will learn how to draw simply and use sketching techniques to take visual notes, facilitate group discussions, and communicate your ideas with clarity! By the end of the course, you will have completed a unique do-it-yourself workbook that you will carry around as a reference and inspiration for your future ideas!   With the help of the course, you will boost your thinking and communication skills as well as improve your productivity and effectiveness. By purchasing the course you get lifetime access to almost 7 hours of high-quality video instructions with numerous assignments close to real life.   You can sign up for the course here:   https://www.udemy.com/course/visual-thinking-and-sketchnoting-boot-camp/?

This podcast is a live session with Patti Dobrowolski that we did on Clubhouse on how to use your imagination for creating the health, wealth and happiness that you're looking for. If you are ready to start using it in more productive ways so check out this podcast. -- You can take advantage of our new exclusive free training; "How to get ahead, build long-lasting confidence and stay productive in four simple steps” This reveals; ​Why most people never build true long-lasting confidence and never get to live a happy, healthy life ​The exact strategy productive people use to become a master of their own time ​The tools you NEED to create YOUR BEST YEAR EVER https://coaching.mi365.me/workshop All our podcasts are available at: https://petecohen.com/podcast/ I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. It is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence, and mindset.    Connect With Me! Come and join our free Pete Cohen Podcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ Follow me on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/ About Pete Cohen: Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading life coaches and keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes, and everyday people.  Pete focuses on the importance of closing the gap in our lives between where we are and where we want to be, both personally and professionally.  It’s then all about coaching you to remove the obstacles that are in your way and helping you install the habits of success.   Pete is the author of 19 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY, and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years. His new book Inspirators - Leading The Way In Leadership is available for free here - https://book.petecohen.com/ *** Check out my brand new 30 Day Kick Start Challenge In just 30 days, I will show you the Exact "Step By Step" Method to redesign your life like the top 1%. Feel extraordinary and take hold of life's boundless opportunities Mi365 30-Day Kick Start Your Life Let me guide, coach, and support you. Just give me 30 days and I'll give you the exact step-by-step method for getting you on your A-game and staying there for 365 days! Every day you'll have access to a new training session, introducing you to a new idea or concept. By investing the time each day, the programme will build over the 30 days to put you in a powerful place in your life.

Patti Dobrowolski is a nationally acclaimed comic performer, high performance business consultant, and 4-time TEDx speaker. She is also the author of two books: 9 Tips to Up Your Creative GeniusDrawing Solutions: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your LifePatti works with teams at all levels to up their creative genius and capture their vision and strategy into huge, beautiful visuals with everyone from small/medium business owners to global clients Nike, Starbucks, Microsoft, amazon and the Gates Foundation. She is known for her high energy, quick wit and commitment to helping people and businesses achieve their goals.Socials:Website - https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/Website (courses) - https://www.creativegeniusyou.com/FB - Up your Creative Genius https://www.facebook.com/upyourcreativegeniusInsta - upyourcreativegeniusLinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/Mentions:Robin Sharma - The 5am Club (20/20/20 Rule) https://www.robinsharma.com/book/the-5am-clubHoffman Le Roche pharmaceutical https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoffmann-La_RocheDraw Your Future class free code - DYFFREEEnjoy the visual here on Youtube

Today with the Gray Beard Bruce Buxton talks to Patti Dobrowolski about her ideas on imagination and how to draw your future. In Patti's many years of consulting and coaching she has developed systems to engage the subconcious through purpose driven imagination and turning the pictures in your mind into pictures on the page. Here are some real strategies for designing our ideal lives a little later on and realizing the promise of all of our multiple resources. Patti's Website https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com/ Free Draw Your Future webinar 1st Weds of every month (next session is Apr 7, 2021) 7:30 AM CT http://www.creativegeniusyou.com/ code for free access is: dyffree Ted Talks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wuBEBnCg3c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zESeeaFDVSw

Patti Dobrowolski is author of “9 Tips to Up Your Creative Genius” and “DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life”. She is founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change. Patti holds an […]

Patti Dobrowolski is author of “9 Tips to Up Your Creative Genius” and “DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life”. She is founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change. Patti holds an […]

In this episode, I talk with Patti Dobrowolski about her path into visualization and her passion for drawing your future. We talk about the power of visualization and how we as sketchnoters are perfect facilitators for this work in the world.SPONSORED BYThis episode of the Sketchnote Army Podcast is brought to you by Neuland, the innovative maker of visual thinking tools. Every Neuland product is designed with passion to be durable and sustainable. Check out their newly redesigned Neuland FineOne® line of water-based, refillable markers.https://neuland.comSave 15% with code amb290425 until December 31, 2020RUNNING ORDERIntro: Who is Patti?Patti's path into visual thinkingWhat is visualization and how does it work?Why visualizing a future state is so powerfulHow to build a current and future picture for yourselfHow daydreaming ignites creative geniusFocus on what is truly important by drawing itThe importance of telling ourselves a new story to followHow science fiction imagined our futureLiving drawings of your futureThe draw your future processScaring yourself out of your comfort zoneTools3 tipsOutroLINKSAmazon affiliate links below support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.Patti's WebsiteCertification/ambassador ProgramPatti's TEXxRanier TalkPatty on FacebookPatti on InstagramPatti on LinkedInPatti on YouTubePatty on VimeoPatti on TwitterBOOK: Limitless by Jim KwikMonk TV seriesKarate Kid filmAgile Work ProfilerTOOLSAmazon affiliate links below support the Sketchnote Army Podcast.Neuland BigOne OutlinerTombow MarkersMungyo Pastels4' x 200' Paper RollRemoiPad ProApple PencilApple Notes App3 TIPSLearn to observeFeed your creative genius ideasImmerse yourself in a messy spaceCREDITSProducer: Alec PulianasTheme music: Jon SchiedermayerSUBSCRIBE ON ITUNESYou can subscribe to the podcast through iTunes.SUPPORT THE PODCASTTo support the creation, production and hosting of the Sketchnote Army Podcast, buy one of Mike Rohde's bestselling books. Use code ROHDE40 at Peachpit.com for 40% off!

Patti Dobrowolski poured her heart and soul into her dream, and then watched it fall apart. She was so embarrassed by her failure that she decided she had to skip town and reinvent herself.  As a performance artist in New York, a throwaway question from a friend got stuck in her head and was the spark that ignited her true calling. To help people harness the power of visual goal setting to bring their dreams into existence.  Patti has since helped individuals and companies harness this power to get clarity and focus and to build the momentum they need to make it all happen. She has many, many examples in her own life, and in those of her clients that illustrate the power of her work and she's going to be sharing those and how it all works on this show. Enjoy! What you'll discover: How Patti envisioned her way onto Broadway. Why drawing a picture of your future is 42% more likely to bring it into existence.  Why you don't need to be great at drawing to use this tool. How you can train your brain to work for you rather than become a victim to it.  Why you need to dial down your limiting beliefs and dial up your imagination.  The internal or external challenges Patti encountered getting the new concept off the ground.  The three keys to success, and how you can use them to achieve your dreams. How speaking fits into Patti's work and how has it helped to grow her brand and business? Why you need to understand what your message is and why you're different to everybody else. Your authentic self is one of the most important things you need to find as a speaker. Why you need to be discerning about the feedback you accept from other people. How TEDx is still a great platform for sharing your message especially if you're a new speaker.  The most important thing Patti thinksa speaker can do to help their message land with an audience. All things Patti Dobrowolski: Website: https://www.upyourcreativegenius.com https://www.creativegeniusyou.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/upyourcreativegenius/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/PDobrowolski LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patti-dobrowolski-532368/ Patti's TEDx Talk ‘Draw Your Future' Patti's TEDx Talk Creative Genius You'   Books:  Limitless by Jim kwik   Resources: https://www.saraharcher.co.uk/interview https://www.facebook.com/groups/thespeakingclub/ https://www.saraharcher.co.uk/challenge https://www.facebook.com/SarahArcherSpeak/ https://www.saraharcher.co.uk https://www.standoutpitch.com   Thanks for listening!   To share your thoughts:                                                       leave a comment below.     Share this show on Twitter, Facebook or LinkedIn.   To help the show out:     Leave an honest review on iTunes. Your ratings and review really help get the word out and I read each one.     Subscribe on iTunes.

Patti Dobrowolski helps you draw your future. As a self-styled creative activator, visual thinker and live illustrator, she coaches businesses and individuals through change. Patti founded the brilliantly named Up Your Creative Genius 11 years ago. Shortly after, her first TED Talk (she’s done 5) went viral and it’s been a busy time since. Much in demand, Patti has spoken all over the world and worked with some of the world’s biggest companies. A ball of energy and charisma, not even Covid-19 can stop Patti and she has adapted her workshops and classes to work online and continues to coach and deliver. “When you draw, it changes your body chemistry. When you think about the future, it sends serotonin into your body…dopamine…the elixir of life so, you feel more confident and excited. The more you can excite yourself about the future, the more you link yourself to that future self.” Through drawing, Patti encourages us to take three bold steps; “the first step should scare you, the second step should be somewhat technical, the third bold step is a mindset shift. Creative genius is not a person. It’s a way of being and it’s accessible to everybody.” Patti also encourages us to take action with our picture and put it somewhere where we can see it everyday so, it imprints on our brain. “People who draw their future create a 42% better chance of success for themselves”, says Patti. Increase yours by listening to this inspiring podcast! Smash The Box is a personal development business. Everything I do is with the aim of inspiring you to find your purpose so you can make your mark on the world. One way I do this is by sharing people’s stories. Inspiring stories that the world needs to hear. Stories of breakthroughs, of adversity overcome, of achievements, successes, of setbacks and turnarounds, of realisations and lightbulb moments. This audio experience is a natural and perfect complement to the existing services of Life Coaching, Leadership Coaching, Breakthrough Workshops and Inspirational Talks - all of which forms something quite unique and special. If you are looking to find your purpose in life, in work, or both, then don’t just think outside the box. It’s time to Smash The Box! Connect with us! www.smashthebox.me www.youtube.com/channel/UC7fEEvjX52qS928oyLGCtuQ www.facebook.com/SmashTheBoxMarkPitcher/ www.instagram.com/markpitcher_smashthebox/

As a disruptive force in the education space, Patti Dobrowolski performs magic with both kids and adults. Patti works with the power of inner and outer visuals to help individuals, teams, and organizations around the world focus to achieve their dreams. She talks about her process, based on neuroscience and imagination, to help students (and all of us!) reach our desired reality. This empowering approach to life is important for our teens’ overall wellbeing and mental health.In this episode, we’re talking about why it’s helpful to allow children the opportunity to truly think creatively and openly about their futures and how to unlock new possibilities for themselves. Patti weaves in each student’s personal strengths or “agilities,” as discerned in a simple and free assessment. She shares how pictures and illustrations can improve anxiety for any age and why imagination is so important to our future.After the interview, I make some important connections between Patti’s thought leadership and the evolution in education. We look at a few resources for creativity and social communication and I share with you some really actionable tips you can use immediately at home or in your classroom.About Patti DobrowolskiPatti Dobrowolski, author of 9 TIPS to UP YOUR CREATIVE GENIUS and DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life, is the founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change. A critically acclaimed comic performer, internationally recognized keynote speaker, writer, and business consultant, she has brought innovative visual practices to Fortune 500 companies, NGOs, and small businesses. Her consulting career spans 25 years working to design, develop, and facilitate workshops with all levels of organizations across multiple industries to help them more effectively manage changes they are facing.Patti holds an MA in Psychology: Drama Therapy from the California Institute of Integral Studies. A multiple award winner, she is a three-time TEDx speaker at “Draw Your Future,” “Imagination Changes Everything,” and Creative Genius: You.Recent clients include: Microsoft Inc, Amazon, Starbucks Coffee Company, Pepsico, Samsung Innovation, FedEx, Turner Broadcasting, Frito-Lay North America, Hoffman LaRoche Inc., Lufthansa, Genentech, Intel, HP, Gilead Sciences, Providence Health Services, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, USDA, Vistage, Guild Mortgage, Seattle Space Needle.Show Notes, Links and Resources: https://educationevolution.org/2Education Evolutionhttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/education-evolution/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/2-inviting-imagination-and-our-agilities-into-teen-goal-setting-with-patti-dobrowlowski

As a disruptive force in the education space, Patti Dobrowolski performs magic with both kids and adults. Patti works with the power of inner and outer visuals to help individuals, teams, and organizations around the world focus to achieve their dreams. She talks about her process, based on neuroscience and imagination, to help students (and all of us!) reach our desired reality. This empowering approach to life is important for our teens’ overall wellbeing and mental health. In this episode, we’re talking about why it’s helpful to allow children the opportunity to truly think creatively and openly about their futures and how to unlock new possibilities for themselves. Patti weaves in each student’s personal strengths or “agilities,” as discerned in a simple and free assessment. She shares how pictures and illustrations can improve anxiety for any age and why imagination is so important to our future. After the interview, I make some important connections between Patti’s thought leadership and the evolution in education. We look at a few resources for creativity and social communication and I share with you some really actionable tips you can use immediately at home or in your classroom. About Patti Dobrowolski Patti Dobrowolski, author of 9 TIPS to UP YOUR CREATIVE GENIUS and DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life, is the founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change. A critically acclaimed comic performer, internationally recognized keynote speaker, writer, and business consultant, she has brought innovative visual practices to Fortune 500 companies, NGOs, and small businesses. Her consulting career spans 25 years working to design, develop, and facilitate workshops with all levels of organizations across multiple industries to help them more effectively manage changes they are facing. Patti holds an MA in Psychology: Drama Therapy from the California Institute of Integral Studies. A multiple award winner, she is a three-time TEDx speaker at “Draw Your Future,” “Imagination Changes Everything,” and Creative Genius: You. Recent clients include: Microsoft Inc, Amazon, Starbucks Coffee Company, Pepsico, Samsung Innovation, FedEx, Turner Broadcasting, Frito-Lay North America, Hoffman LaRoche Inc., Lufthansa, Genentech, Intel, HP, Gilead Sciences, Providence Health Services, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, USDA, Vistage, Guild Mortgage, Seattle Space Needle. Show Notes, Links and Resources: https://educationevolution.org/2 Education Evolution https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/education-evolution/ Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/2-inviting-imagination-and-our-agilities-into-teen-goal-setting-with-patti-dobrowlowski

As a disruptive force in the education space, Patti Dobrowolski performs magic with both kids and adults. Patti works with the power of inner and outer visuals to help individuals, teams, and organizations around the world focus to achieve their dreams. She talks about her process, based on neuroscience and imagination, to help students (and all of us!) reach our desired reality. This empowering approach to life is important for our teens’ overall wellbeing and mental health.In this episode, we’re talking about why it’s helpful to allow children the opportunity to truly think creatively and openly about their futures and how to unlock new possibilities for themselves. Patti weaves in each student’s personal strengths or “agilities,” as discerned in a simple and free assessment. She shares how pictures and illustrations can improve anxiety for any age and why imagination is so important to our future.After the interview, I make some important connections between Patti’s thought leadership and the evolution in education. We look at a few resources for creativity and social communication and I share with you some really actionable tips you can use immediately at home or in your classroom.About Patti DobrowolskiPatti Dobrowolski, author of 9 TIPS to UP YOUR CREATIVE GENIUS and DRAWING SOLUTIONS: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life, is the founder of Up Your Creative Genius, a consulting firm that uses visuals and creative processes to help companies and individuals around the world accelerate growth and change. A critically acclaimed comic performer, internationally recognized keynote speaker, writer, and business consultant, she has brought innovative visual practices to Fortune 500 companies, NGOs, and small businesses. Her consulting career spans 25 years working to design, develop, and facilitate workshops with all levels of organizations across multiple industries to help them more effectively manage changes they are facing.Patti holds an MA in Psychology: Drama Therapy from the California Institute of Integral Studies. A multiple award winner, she is a three-time TEDx speaker at “Draw Your Future,” “Imagination Changes Everything,” and Creative Genius: You.Recent clients include: Microsoft Inc, Amazon, Starbucks Coffee Company, Pepsico, Samsung Innovation, FedEx, Turner Broadcasting, Frito-Lay North America, Hoffman LaRoche Inc., Lufthansa, Genentech, Intel, HP, Gilead Sciences, Providence Health Services, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, USDA, Vistage, Guild Mortgage, Seattle Space Needle.Show Notes, Links and Resources: https://educationevolution.org/2Education Evolutionhttps://businessinnovatorsradio.com/education-evolution/Source: https://businessinnovatorsradio.com/2-inviting-imagination-and-our-agilities-into-teen-goal-setting-with-patti-dobrowlowski

In deze aflevering van de Gave Wijven Podcast vertelt Inge de Fluiter, schetstolk, schetscoach en eigenaar van de Schetswinkel in Leiden over haar carrière, activiteiten, nevenactiviteiten, voorkeuren, adviezen en handtas. Ze vertelt over hoe het is om als Brabander in Leiden te zijn terechtgekomen, haar droom om een winkel te hebben, hoe ze na 1 jaar bouwkunde studeren bij de studentendecaan terecht kwam en een heel andere route koos, en waarom we moeten stoppen met proberen en iets gaan doen. Als tips heeft Inge voor ons: het boek 'Draw To Win' van Dan Roam, op YouTube 'Draw Your Future' van Patti Dobrowolski, het boek 'Een Klein Leven' van Hanya Yanagihara, het hoorcollege 'Acht filosofische miniaturen' en de Spotify playlist 'Kungs'. Je kan Inge op LinkedIn vinden; ze is @schetswinkel op Instagram en Pinterest.

It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   We speak a lot about leadership. Whether it is leading a team at work, or a family or just yourself, there has never been a more important time to tap into our innate abilities to guide and inspire.   Like a Russian doll, we carry around so many parts. Some of these parts are focused on the past, whilst some focus on tomorrow and yet both types can create negative emotion and cause distraction to lead you away from your chosen path.    When we imagine ourselves as a professional, we can help shake off these feelings of inadequacy and take charge of our actions in a positive way. The pair explain how it is important to find a good example of a ‘leader’ we’re inspired by and to make sure we are aware of our intrinsic self-value - we are all worthy of leading ourselves to greatness.   In this episode, Pete and Patti ask the tough questions behind improving as a leader and draw upon quantum science to outline how meditation and mindfulness can be a valuable tool in accessing the ‘information field’ for our advantage.    Learn from the pair:   1.    How shifting your brainwaves out of a beta state can improve leadership attributes; 2.    How to harness the power of the reticular activating system for pointing out your strengths; 3.    How we are all phoenixes at heart with the ability to be reborn from adversity.   Are you conscious of your brainwaves? Is leadership something you want to develop more? Share your thoughts with us via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter!     This episode of The Pete Cohen Podcasts is proudly brought to you by petecohen.com  Check out our brand new free training;    “Discover The 3 Secrets To Transform Your Life Today And Become A Leader People Want To Follow’”   https://petecohen.com/coaching/   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset.   Find out more about our work and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://petecohen.com  https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 19 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years. His new book Inspirators - Leading The Way In Leadership is available here https://www.inspirators.me

Patti Dobrowolski - draw your future Magic Charts Way of Life - wayoflifeapp.com app for new habits Jojo Graham - https://jojograham.com social marketing coach Emma Drew - https://emmadrew.info money blogger and website busting Grace Lever - https://www.gracelever.com social media training CRM - 17 hats Anthea - First Knowledge. Helped with the video content for the Evergreen course. @themoneypanel

It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   How often do you change your mind? We’re not talking about stubbornness - but the big mindset shifts that really change your life for the better.    We are all a series of pre-programmed habits but have an innate power to create and change the status quo. In this episode, Pete and Patti explore creation at the most fundamental levels and explain the importance of creation and how we can harness our ability to tap into the unlimited possibility around us. Using examples from the Ancient Greeks through to celebrities, the pair describe classic examples of the manifestation process in action – referencing the brilliant work by Dr Joe Dispenza.   Our paths are unique to us and, as the pair describe, is one of our greatest blessings. Whilst we can change our minds based of the advice from others, we must align ourselves with our ‘true north’ in order to combat the barrage of distractions and meet our full potential. Our attention is a vital resource which can reprogram our internal workings – so protect it wisely!   In this episode, learn how to change your mind today!   1.    Form a clear vision 2.    See it everyday 3.    Believe it hard! 4.    Act as if it is happening     This episode of Mi365 Podcasts is proudly brought to you by Mi365 Elite - Sign up today at https://mi365.me/elite or check out our brand new free case study: https://mi365elite.me/case-study.   LOOKING FOR people… WHO WANT TO MAKE 2019 Their BEST ever!   If you are looking to improve certain areas of your life and go to the next level… By releasing the roadblocks that are holding you back - then read on.   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset   I am going to work closely and help several people like you install the systems I have used to help hundreds of people change their lives.   Join us and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 17 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years.

It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   Do you know what the ‘Law of Attraction’ is? Can it really help to change your life? Or is it just a load of hot air?   In this episode, our hosts Pete and Patti unpack of the Law of Attraction and help to explain what it is, how it can be used and argue against some of the common misconceptions.   The pair describe the Law of Attraction – the idea that thoughts are energy which can be utilised to create a specific outcome– and discuss times when they have successfully used the LoA to shape their future.   Patti outlines several strategies for harnessing this effect, including:   ·     Daily gratitude practice; ·     Specific meditative techniques – how to work backwards; ·     Breaking routines to jump into the now. ·     Using drawing to seal in the intention into our brains.   By reconnecting with our innate connection to the information superhighway, we can lead ourselves to our desired future outcomes – whether it is outside of our comprehension or not. However, it is a lack of self-belief, coupled with chronic stress and anxiety which disconnects us and leaves us often feeling dissatisfied with life.   Yet belief is not enough – it takes regular action to see results. Whilst others can help to advise and guide, it is up to us to do what needs to be done.   Disrupt your old conditioning and try it today!   Do you believe in the Law of Attraction? What have you manifested into your life? Share your thoughts with us via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter!   This episode of Mi365 Podcasts is proudly brought to you by Mi365 Elite - Sign up today at https://mi365.me/elite or check out our brand new free case study: https://mi365elite.me/case-study.   LOOKING FOR people… WHO WANT TO MAKE 2019 Their BEST ever!   If you are looking to improve certain areas of your life and go to the next level… By releasing the roadblocks that are holding you back - then read on.   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset   I am going to work closely and help several people like you install the systems I have used to help hundreds of people change their lives.   Join us and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 17 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years.

It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   True leadership is in short supply. How do we culture leadership? And what skills are really needed for being a leader?   In this episode, we discuss all things leadership with our hosts Pete and Patti. Drawing examples from the world of politics, the pair discuss what constitutes as true leadership and highlight the special role of women in leadership in the 21stCentury.   Patti outlines some of the key skills possessed by quality leaders, focusing on the importance of active listening – both to others around you, but also to yourself and your gut instinct. Pete explains that when we follow ourselves, we inspire others to follow us too and this can contribute to our vision. By leading ‘from the heart’ and taking responsibility we can allow the transformation to occur and shift into our best self.   Learn from our hosts:   1.    How to tune in with yourself and align your actions with your higher purpose; 2.    The difference between purpose and vision and how to inspire others; 3.    Why you need a push and pull cycle in order to meet your full potential.   What leaders do you admire? Do you have a clear vision for the future to inspire others? Share your thoughts with us via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter!   This episode of Mi365 Podcasts is proudly brought to you by Mi365 Elite - Sign up today at https://mi365.me/elite or check out our brand new free case study: https://mi365elite.me/case-study.   LOOKING FOR people… WHO WANT TO MAKE 2019 Their BEST ever!   If you are looking to improve certain areas of your life and go to the next level… By releasing the roadblocks that are holding you back - then read on.   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset   I am going to work closely and help several people like you install the systems I have used to help hundreds of people change their lives.   Join us and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 17 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years.

  It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   We all enjoy success. Whether it’s playing a sport, closing a deal in the boardroom or simply finishing that tough jigsaw puzzle, success is something that we all crave.    Many of our favourite stars – actors, singers, sports players all commit to practicing their art for thousands of hours, but yet we expect to be successful without investing lots of time or energy into something. Why is that?   In this episode, Pete and Patti explore the fascinating subject of mastery and how we can fight against a society which doesn’t encourage us to ‘master’ anything. Pete describes just how important it is for us to work on continual improvement of things we enjoy and how this daily act of practice creates long-lasting happiness.   The pair contrast mastery against perfectionism, highlighting the key differences between the two and describe why perfectionism isn’t something to strive for. By learning from our bad experiences, we can create change in different areas and help to support and mentor others to create further satisfaction.   Learn from Pete and Patti as they discuss:   1.    How to shift your focus from taking into giving out; 2.    How to find something to learn from anyone; 3.    Why building a heathy obsession and a winner’s mindset are key to mastering your art.   Don’t wait for inspiration – take action now and wait for inspiration to come to you!   What skills have you chosen to master? Has a mentor helped to shape your experience? Share your thoughts with us via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter!   This episode of Mi365 Podcasts is proudly brought to you by Mi365 Elite - Sign up today at https://mi365.me/elite or check out our brand new free case study: https://mi365elite.me/case-study.   LOOKING FOR people… WHO WANT TO MAKE 2019 Their BEST ever!   If you are looking to improve certain areas of your life and go to the next level… By releasing the roadblocks that are holding you back - then read on.   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset   I am going to work closely and help several people like you install the systems I have used to help hundreds of people change their lives.   Join us and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 17 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years.

It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   What is imagination? We’re all familiar with imagination, especially those with young children. Imagination – whether used consciously or automatically when daydreaming, is the ability to use your in-built mental faculties to see things that you desire. It is an incredible powerful resource when harnessed, but the sad reality is that very few of us use our imagination to its full potential.   In this episode, our hosts Pete and Patti begin to unravel the mysteries surrounding the imagination and describe why it is essential that we all begin to flex our imagination muscles.    The pair discuss how they have both individually benefited from using imagination to visualise a better future, with Patti debunking the myths behind those claiming that they cannot ‘imagine’. Patti outlines how powerful putting pen to paper and drawing can be in helping us to identify the necessary steps to take us from where we are today to where we want to be.   In this episode, learn    1.    How to tune your imagination to complete difficult tasks; 2.    The limits to imagination through our biological hardware; 3.    Why it is so important to live up to your fullest potential.   We are living in an incredible time – we can do pretty much anything we choose to. However, we need a vision for the future – something our dynamic duo can surely provide!   Do I use my imagination enough? What’s one thing I can do right now to bring this new idea to life? Share your thoughts with us via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter!   This episode of Mi365 Podcasts is proudly brought to you by Mi365 Elite - Sign up today at https://mi365.me/elite or check out our brand new free case study: https://mi365elite.me/case-study.   LOOKING FOR people… WHO WANT TO MAKE 2019 Their BEST ever!   If you are looking to improve certain areas of your life and go to the next level… By releasing the roadblocks that are holding you back - then read on.   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset   I am going to work closely and help several people like you install the systems I have used to help hundreds of people change their lives.   Join us and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 17 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years.

It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   Many of us find saying “I love you” to be really difficult; even to those we do really love! We are brought up to believe that love is something reserved for either family or romantic partners, but what if this didn’t have to be the case? How would our world change if we all shared a little more love with one another?   In this episode, Pete and Patti describe different views on love and explore the pain of rejection. The pair contrast young children (who are oblivious to rejection through their love of themselves and being present in the moment) and teenagers and their struggle to be understood. As adults, we are often somewhere in the middle but our ability to self-love is often dependent on a range of different factors.   Patti theorises how love could be defined as the essence of our entire world. By sharing our energies, we enable the creation of great feats - but this is dependent on our ability to choose love over the other central force – fear. When we operate out of love, we shift our perception into a proactive mindset and this powerful ability is fully under our control at all times.   In this episode, listen as the pair discuss:   ·     Whether love really does conquer all; ·     The dangers of listening to society when it comes to love ·     Whether we are more than just a body and mind   Is love the key to cosmic connection? How has your view of love changed over the years? Share your thoughts with us via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter!   This episode of Mi365 Podcasts is proudly brought to you by Mi365 Elite - Sign up today at https://mi365.me/elite or check out our brand new free case study: https://mi365elite.me/case-study.   LOOKING FOR people… WHO WANT TO MAKE 2019 Their BEST ever!   If you are looking to improve certain areas of your life and go to the next level… By releasing the roadblocks that are holding you back - then read on.   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset   I am going to work closely and help several people like you install the systems I have used to help hundreds of people change their lives.   Join us and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 17 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years.

It’s time. Our brand new podcast series is going live: Pete & Patti’s Powerful Particulars! Join Pete and his new co-host, Mi365 favourite Patti Dobrowolski as they debate the big questions live from your speakers! If you want to be inspired and question the world around us, you’ve come to the right place!   In this first episode, Pete and Patti kick off the series with a simple question: what is the meaning of life?   ‘What is the meaning of life’ is the 99thmost popular question on Google, but despite us all wanting to know; no-one seems to have a clear answer. Are we more than just our biology? If not, what is the meaning of life for a cat / dog?   Pete and Patti explore this fundamental question, including:   ·     The role of science & ‘cellular syntropy’ ·     How religion can work hand-in-hand with science to help find meaning ·     Why we need to play more ·     How expressing vulnerability can open doors.   The pair discuss (and eventually agree on!) that their favourite meaning of life is simply that which you choose to give it – and often,that means helping others. We are blessed with the ability to service those around us and those who regularly help others are found to be happier and healthier than those who choose not to.   With ‘mid-life crises’ happening earlier and earlier, understanding how to connect to the cosmic whole is so important. Only by expressing ourselves fully can we begin to connect to the wider picture and in turn, create the lives we want for ourselves.    Is life just continual change before death? Or is there something more to it? Share your thoughts with us via Facebook, Instagram or Twitter!     This episode of Mi365 Podcasts is proudly brought to you by Mi365 Elite - Sign up today at https://mi365.me/elite or check out our brand new free case study: https://mi365elite.me/case-study.   LOOKING FOR people… WHO WANT TO MAKE 2019 Their BEST ever!   If you are looking to improve certain areas of your life and go to the next level… By releasing the roadblocks that are holding you back - then read on.   I help everyday people achieve their goals & dreams!   Helping and coaching people in my expertise. And it is VERY satisfying to change people’s lives so they improve and change their health, finances, relationships, confidence and mindset   I am going to work closely and help several people like you install the systems I have used to help hundreds of people change their lives.   Join us and our community of likeminded individuals today!   Pete   Connect With Me!   https://www.facebook.com/Itspetecohen https://www.facebook.com/mi365.me/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/223961357935535/ https://twitter.com/petecohen_ https://www.instagram.com/petecohen_/   About Pete Cohen:   Pete Cohen is one of the world’s leading keynote speakers. Hundreds of thousands of people from all over the world have been motivated and inspired by Pete’s presentations. He has professionally impacted on the lives of thousands of people worldwide, including business executives, professional athletes and the everyday person.   Pete has coached world-class athletes and sporting greats, such as Sally Gunnell, Ellen MacArthur, Ronnie O’Sullivan, Arsenal Football Club and Tim Henman to achieve peak performance. Pete focuses on the importance of having a strong belief in yourself. He teaches that you need to be positive and you have to develop self-confidence to achieve your potential and be successful.   He is the author of 17 published books, several of which have been best-sellers across the world, including Shut the Duck Up, Habit Busting, Life DIY and Sort Your Life Out. He has also presented his own show on TV called The Coach and was the resident Life Coach on GMTV for 12 years.

An old friend returns to Conversations Live today as Vicki is joined by Patti Dobrowolski, who we last heard from six years ago upon the release of her first book, Drawing Solutions: How Visual Goal Setting Will Change Your Life. Today, she'll discuss how you can use visual goal setting to get a jump start on your goals for the new year in a fun and easy way! To help you get started, here is your free goal-setting template map and a free downloadable icon guide! Patti is a TEDx speaker, critically acclaimed comic performer, writer and business consultant, and is a member of the National Speaker's Association known for her innovativevisual keynotes. She is a multiple business award winner and past Broadway performer. Her latest book is 9 Tips to Up Your Creative Genius.