Podcasts about scott you

Scott Aukerman is best known as the host of Comedy Bang Bang - the hit comedy radio show which blends interviews with real guests and off-the-wall improvised characters, as well as being the co-creator and director of Between Two Ferns with Zach Galifianakis, the Emmy-winning Funny or Die series!In this episode, we discuss Scott's editorial instinct and shaping of Comedy Bang Bang, the gentle dance of improvisation, all things Between Two Ferns and Scott's allure of a talk show career.Join the Insiders Club at patreon.com/comcompod where you can WATCH the full episode and get access to 20 minutes of exclusive extras including the guest booking strategy on Comedy Bang Bang, saying goodbye to the TV version and writing Spider-Man!Support the Podcast from only £3/month at Patreon.com/ComComPod✅ Exclusive access to full video and ad-free audio episodes✅ 20 minutes of exclusive extra content with Scott✅ Early access to new episodes (where possible!)✅ Exclusive membership offerings including a monthly “Stu&A”PLUS you'll get access to the full back catalogue of extras you can find nowhere else!Catch Up with Scott:You can keep up-to-date with Scott on Instagram, @scottaukerman and all things Comedy Bang Bang at comedybangbangworld.com.Everything Stu's up to:Come and help me figure out some NEW STUFF…Find all the dates and more at stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy.Leamington Spa: 2nd June, 2025: Work In Progress @ The Royal PugGreen Phoenix Festival: 6th July, 2025: Work In ProgressOxford Comedy Festival: 15th July, 2025: Work In ProgressEdinburgh Fringe: 11th-17th August, 2025: "An Inconvenient Time" (11.05am, WIP) ​Discover Stu's comedy about the climate crisis, for everyone from activists to CEOs, at stuartgoldsmith.com/climate.Find everything else at stuartgoldsmith.com.See Stuart live on tour - www.stuartgoldsmith.com/comedy Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Those who listen to this show likely either manage or invest in rental properties. There are several different types of real estate to choose from, but have you ever considered self-storage units? In today's episode of the #DoorGrowShow, property management growth expert Jason Hull sits down with the “OG” of self-storage real estate investing, Scott Meyers to talk about an opportunity to invest in real estate without the common challenges of residential properties. You'll Learn [01:22] Switching from residential investment properties to storage units [08:35] Investing in self-storage without the management [12:15] Pros and cons of self-storage [14:51] Self-storage education Tweetables “When you have just a hammer, everything looks like a nail.” “Be honest with yourself, and sometimes the best cook in the world can't fix a broken recipe.” “Once you get behind in habitational real estate and rental real estate in general, you know, it takes double the effort to get caught back up again.” “The more valuable you are to your property management business the less valuable your property management business is to everybody else.” Resources DoorGrow and Scale Mastermind DoorGrow Academy DoorGrow on YouTube DoorGrowClub DoorGrowLive TalkRoute Referral Link Transcript [00:00:00] Scott: Self-storage really found me instead of me finding self-storage. Which I just felt it's a simple, predictable business model that you can replicate over and over again without as many moving parts and that human factor.  [00:00:11] Jason: Welcome DoorGrow property managers to the DoorGrow show. If you are a property management entrepreneur that wants to add doors, make a difference, increase revenue, help others, impact lives, and you're interested in growing in business and life, and you're open to doing things a bit differently, then you are a DoorGrow property manager. [00:00:28] DoorGrow property managers love the opportunities, daily variety, unique challenges, and freedom that property management brings. Many in real estate think you're crazy for doing it. You think they're crazy for not because you realize that property management is the ultimate, high trust gateway to real estate deals, relationships and residual income. At DoorGrow, we are on a mission to transform property management business owners and their businesses. We want to transform the industry, eliminate the BS, build awareness, change perception, expand the market, and help the best property management entrepreneurs win. I'm your host, property management growth expert, Jason Hull, the founder and CEO of DoorGrow. [00:01:09] Now let's get into the show. All right. So. I'm hanging out here with Scott Meyers. Welcome Scott.  [00:01:18] Scott: Thanks. And so good to see you again. How are you?  [00:01:20] Jason: Good. Good. It's good to have you. So, why don't we get into your background, how you kind of into this, but Scott, you're a self storage investment expert. Is that fair to say? [00:01:33] Scott: That's fair to say. They call me the OG in self storage now. And I guess I can step into that role.  [00:01:38] Jason: All right. The OG, the original gangsta. All right. So tell us a little bit how you got into this.  [00:01:44] Scott: So like many people got into real estate by buying one single family rental house. Of course, this is a back a little ways now back in 1993, I bought a single family house. with an assumable VA mortgage on it. So I took out a home equity loan from my own home and bought this one, no money down, just like Carleton Sheets, the other OG in the real estate space taught me how to do. And so I bought that house, we rehabbed it to refinance it, rented it out. [00:02:11] So the BRRRR method before everybody called it the BRRRR method. And then we went out and bought two more. And then that turned into four, six, eight, and my wife and I got married along the way and brought my wife into this hobby. I was working for a fortune 500 company at the time, and this was really just to supplement retirement until it kind of took on a life of its own. [00:02:29] And that was because in 1999 with the dot com crash, when all of our tenants were then able to buy a house shortly after that, because the presidential administration at the time reinstituted the Community Reinvestment Act and allowed anybody who could basically fog a mirror to buy a house while all our tenants left and they were doing so. [00:02:49] And so at that time, we were now rehabbing a second time so that we could sell our houses just to be able to keep up with what the market trend was at the time. Well that just about broke us. And so we decided then to get into multifamily and all we needed to do was get some economies of scale, work a little harder, work a little smarter, and we'll make this all happen. [00:03:08] But really what I found is that we just had more doors, we had more tenants, we had more toilets. And to be honest with you, Jason you know, we made a lot of money in residential real estate and growing that side of the business. I mean, we were very big, we got up to just shy of 450 doors. But I realized that I don't think I was cut out for this. [00:03:24] I understood the math, you know, the real estate math and everything that went into it. But I found even though we had property managers and property management companies, I was finding that I was becoming less loving of my fellow man and women, because they were destroying our properties and stealing from us, as well as our contractors and some of our staff. [00:03:40] And so at that point, I began to look around the landscape and, you know, we love real estate because of all the reasons to love real estate. It appreciates, we can depreciate it. We can borrow money to buy it. And then our clients pay down our basis. I mean, there's no other investment like that. So as I looked at the landscape and real estate, that really only left parking lots and self storage if I really didn't like the tenant and toilet business. [00:04:01] So. I looked into storage and loved what we saw in terms of the fundamentals of the historical, the track record of performance of the asset class. And it was right under my nose all the time. It's just this ugly, you know, stepchild of commercial real estate that nobody was really talking about. So I researched it and spent a lot of time understanding the nuances bought my first self storage facility in a partnership. [00:04:22] And then yeah, the light bulb went off and recognize after owning it from the operation standpoint, that It was truly what everybody had said that it was. And what we found is it was all the benefits of real estate without the hassles of tenants and toilets and trash. And so we began simultaneously selling off our houses and our apartments and then going forward into self storage. [00:04:41] And here we are today at about just shy of 5 million square feet of self storage, 28, 000 doors nationwide and growing. And then along the way, also built a sizable education and consulting and mentoring and coaching and event business that only not only teaches people how to get into the business, but also became a funnel, a conduit for a lot of partnerships and a lot of deal flow into our organization. [00:05:01] So that's either the long winded version on a podcast or the short winded version however you want to look at how we got started in the business.  [00:05:07] Jason: Yeah, love it and qualify yourself help everybody understand like where are you at right now with storage and rentals. I mean you got some impressive numbers. [00:05:17] Scott: Yeah, so we're sitting at about we've done over 5 million square feet We're sitting at about three and a half just maybe three and three quarters million square feet right now assets under management So we're right now jason, we're basically a syndication company where we're a financial services company that raises capital and layers that on top of debt and then deploys it in nothing but self storage. [00:05:37] And so many of these projects, these partnerships, these joint ventures in our funds, they have a shelf life and they expire in four to five years because that's when we can capitalize and pull our chips off the table, if you will. And we have a capital event by way of sometimes a refinance, but usually a sale of the property or properties within that fund. [00:05:55] And then we just go out and buy more. So it ebbs and flows when some are going out the door, we have more projects coming in the door as well. I only own two residential properties. One of them is an Airbnb and the other one is the one that I live in. And that's it. Everything else is 100 percent self storage at this point. [00:06:10] Jason: Got it. How many units of storage do you represent then?  [00:06:14] Scott: Yeah, so 28 to 29, 000 overall is what we've invested in and we're sitting at about 20, between 20, 000, 21, 000 right now in asset center management. Awesome.  [00:06:25] Jason: Wow. Okay. So for those listening that are in residential property management, and they're listening to you what would you say to them? [00:06:34] Like, maybe there's some of them that they're like, "man, I don't want to deal with toilets, tenants and trash anymore." And, you know, "I'm starting to love humans less. And I love real estate," but what's kind of your message?  [00:06:49] Scott: You know, in the education side of our business, Jason, of course, when there's a room full of folks interested in self storage, it's really easy to say that you know, I think everybody should have a self storage facility, one in their portfolio, if you're in real estate and, you know, all roads lead to self storage eventually, because I think everybody gets to that place where they do get frustrated and it could be just a day. [00:07:06] It could be, you know, in terms of, "wow, that was a whole lot coming at us." But it doesn't mean that, you know, my recipe is the catch all, you know, when you have just a hammer, everything looks like a nail. And I'm not saying that anybody should go out and do what I have done because we made a lot of money you know, on the residential side and commercial multifamily. [00:07:21] I just found for me, that this self storage really found me instead of me finding self storage. Which I just felt it's a simple, predictable business model that you can replicate over and over again without as many moving parts and that human factor. And so for a knucklehead like me, I think it was the perfect fit to be able to go out and just master this practice and that business model and the standard operating procedures. And then just at scale and at speed go out and just make a go of it. And we grew really fast and never really get over our skis. It was just it's a manageable model as well. And so it just fit for myself. But I would say Jason, when business gets so difficult that it's just absolutely no fun anymore, and it's drudgery... I see many people doing it right now, they're just throwing good money after bad. Well, you know, be honest with yourself, and sometimes the best cook in the world can't fix a broken recipe. And if they find that is the recipe is your business model or just your business in general, then get help. [00:08:13] Or, you know, maybe it's time to take a look at some of their asset classes like self storage.  [00:08:17] Jason: So if somebody's an investor and they're wanting to get into this, there's probably a learning curve. There's probably potential pitfalls. So like, yeah, I've tried my Airbnb. That was kind of difficult. I didn't like having to mess with pricing constantly. Like maybe I should try self storage. I'm curious about what you would say to them and then, you know, if somebody's just an investor and they're just looking to just invest, but they're not wanting to really actually manage storage units, then what path would you recommend? [00:08:45] Scott: So sure. Two paths, but also some folks just take a one and end up achieving the same result. So if this is something that you're looking to do actively you know, of course, Jason, I own, you know, I run an education company. And so we're always going to tell you to get education because the cost of not, you know, you pay the dump tax. [00:09:03] And sometimes we've seen people pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for the dump tax. And that just means that they've gone out and they've watched a couple of videos read a book and all of a sudden they're experts in masters and this is commercial real estate. There's a lot of nuances to it, no matter what the asset class you pick within commercial real estate, but also because it's commercial real estate, there's lots of commas and zeros to profit from it, which is fantastic. [00:09:23] But also if you make a mistake. Those mistakes in underwriting and in other areas also come with commas and zeros behind them as well. And we've seen many a good investor that maybe it was a little prideful or maybe thought that, "Hey, this is an easy asset class compared to what I've been doing. You know, I can do this with one hand tied behind my back." And then they find out that this is an operating business on top of real estate. And there's more nuances to this and they need to dig in and understand what that looks like, because as you know, once you get behind in habitational real estate and rental real estate in general, you know, it takes double the effort to get caught back up again, and if that goes on for a quarter, sometimes people just can't recover. So, you know, we can go into all the reasons why and the mistakes that people have made, but I think just understanding you need to educate yourself. Now, if you're looking to do this passively, in other words, you don't want to take on the credit risk, you don't want to take on, say, the construction risk or a lease up risk of a turnaround or a development project then you can invest passively. [00:10:20] There's a number of REITs out there and we have funds and individual syndications and joint ventures that we do with folks where they come in as a limited partner. They still get equity. They still have ownership. They have a piece of ownership of this property. So they get the depreciation, they get a share of the cash flow, and then the profits upon the sale. [00:10:38] But they don't take on the lease up risk, the development risk, the risk of a project going south no matter what, and or have to go out and create a business, you know, and a team to be able to do so. And along the way, many folks, Jason, they start as passive investors either with one of our projects or others, and by, by just following along, you know, you get that education. [00:10:59] You know, we hold webinars once a quarter and we send out monthly reports and we send out updates as to what's happening with our projects. And so by def facto, our passive investors are getting an education and they earn while they learn the business.  [00:11:11] Jason: Got it. Earn while they learn. Like it. [00:11:15] And that's probably a better path to start out as is to first explore doing it passively to figure out should they jump in and do it more actively.  [00:11:24] Scott: I don't know better. That's not my decision to make. I think some folks, if they have a team in place, you know, they can make that pivot just by learning the business, but it just really depends on where they're at. [00:11:34] I would say that it's It's certainly the safest. And if you have a small amount of capital to set aside to invest in a project, that's the best way about doing it. Because once it comes time to do your own, it's going to take a larger chunk of capital to be able to do so unless you're raising private equity. [00:11:49] So you know I can say that is the best and probably is for most people, but not everybody.  [00:11:54] Jason: Got it. Yeah. Well, a lot of people listening already have some sort of business, a lot of them, they won't just throw it in, jump right into storage units, maybe. But I think a lot of them, it would resonate with them. [00:12:06] "Hey, then maybe this is another way to diversify my portfolio, another way to invest. I would love to do, try it out passively, and then maybe even get some education." for those that maybe heard the beginning of this and they're like, "Man, I don't have to deal with toilets, tenants, trash, and it's real estate. And it sounds so easy." What are some of the things that maybe they have a blind spot to? That somebody, you know, they would learn once they start doing this, it's not all, you know, stars and rainbows and roses with this as well.  [00:12:38] Scott: Right. So, you know, outside of the front end and the due diligence that needs to be done just to make sure that you've bought a solid property from an operational standpoint, which is what you're referring to, you know, what we found is that, you know, a million bucks, 5 million bucks goes a lot further, meaning you buy more doors you buy more square footage and it allows us more doors because these are metal boxes on concrete slabs and they're not, you know, multifamily that has drywall and plumbing and, you know, a lot of HVC, it just goes further. [00:13:03] So that means that there are more units to be able to keep track of. You know, the good news is there's software and we do have property management companies and property managers to handle that and a lot of it is automated, but at the end of the day, you know, it's a large amount of units and a large amount of rental tracking that needs to be done to make sure that the dollars come in the door. On the flip side of that, just because I am a bright side up, kind of guy, you know, we have the ability with our leasing structure within self storage that, you know, it's a 30 day lease automatically renewable. And so anytime that we want to raise the rates, we don't have to wait. It's not an anniversary. It's not an annual lease. It is a month. And so that means on month seven, if we see that the market is changing and the demand is higher and there's a whole lot of development going on, then we can raise the rates in seven months. [00:13:46] We can do it in four months. We can do some nuisance increases in between, you know, either way, and we're very flexible when it comes to that. But then also, the good news is even if people do fall behind in the rent, you know, we have the ability to, or we have the power behind us of the lien laws instead of habitational or versus habitational real estate in which you have tenant and toilet courts. And so when I used to walk out of there, I had a pink piece of paper and very little ability to be able to get my money back and to be able to you know, execute on getting that the money back in the door. [00:14:18] But with self storage and the lien laws. We can put a lock on their unit, lock them out and we don't have to go to court within 60 or 90 days depending upon the state, my manager or an auction company will cut the lock off and open it up for bids on the date that we have an auction and I can recoup my back rent to my late fees and, you know, we are the judge and jury so we don't have to wait. [00:14:36] I know you asked for the pitfalls but, you know, the good side is that you know, even though there's a lot of units to manage the, just because of the nature of the industry and the safeguards that we have in place, it's much, much easier and simpler to handle.  [00:14:48] Jason: Awesome. Cool. Well, yeah, this is very informative. [00:14:51] Tell us a little bit about your education company, what you do there and and maybe how people can get in touch if they're curious.  [00:14:58] Scott: So on the education side, you know, when I got into business, you know, there wasn't an education company out there. There wasn't anybody that I could go to to learn the, you know, the A to Z to the nuts and bolts of the business. [00:15:10] I could certainly go to the trade shows and some of the industry events and I can learn about doors and how to build these facilities and some of the, you know, the bolt on property management software. But there wasn't anybody teaching about the investment side of the business. And so, you know, we scraped as much as we could, you know, leaning on and building on the foundation that we had in commercial real estate already by owning multifamily and office buildings and warehouses. [00:15:30] But just digging into this business and talking to as many people as possible. And I hired a consultant to fill in the gaps and spend a day with him touring his facilities and others that he managed for other investors. And, you know, that's how we grew our you know, bank of knowledge and created our standard operating procedures, at least the foundation of it. [00:15:48] But then after we got into the business a little further down the path and buying facilities I used to run the Real Estate Investor Association here in Indianapolis. And we had 600 folks in the association. And about 300 of them wanted to know about self storage after they saw what we were doing. [00:16:04] And so we started holding workshops and then some of the agents that represent the national speakers in the industry, again, there wasn't a person speaking and experts on the industry. And so they contacted me and one of them assisted me in setting up presentations, the ability to sell tools and resources for folks, and then helped us to create a live events, and thus, our education industry was born. It was really just out of a, I guess, like any good entrepreneur, you see an opportunity in the marketplace and a hole to be filled, and we stepped in and filled that. And so it's evolved from just a home study system, which is, you know, that's such a guru, you know, term to use that what we developed, what we put together was a very extensive business plan with all the tools, the resources and links and software, you know, and everything you need to find, manage, purchase a self storage facility. And that is the name of our home study system. And then that evolved into live events, three day events, which is an immersive workshop and then also for folks that are looking for either one on one or a group coaching and mentoring, you know, begin offering that. And to this day, still offer that. And so we have you know, we're the nation's leading education company in the space. [00:17:14] We've taught more people how to get into the business and grow and scale the business and than anybody else out there in any other organization out there and still going strong at this is what we'd love to do is, you know, we love to take people from zero to 55 miles an hour in storage. [00:17:26] And then in our mastermind and in our other areas, we like to take them from 55 to a hundred and build partnerships and do syndications with them as well. Awesome.  [00:17:35] Jason: Yeah. Sounds very much like our goal here at DoorGrow for the residential space. So what's the name of your education company?  [00:17:44] Scott: Self Storage Profits is the name of the education company. [00:17:46] SelfStorageInvesting.com is the website for all the tools and the resources, a ton of free information, pull downs, white papers, a whole lot to not only just dip your toe in the water, but really to help you get started, and then anything else that you would want or need with regards to coaching, mentoring, attending our live events, it's all located on that page as well, including access to our passive investments as well. [00:18:11] Jason: Very cool. Awesome. Cool. Well, I appreciate you coming on the show, hanging out with us here on the DoorGrow show. It sounds really interesting. I think there's a lot of our clients that are involved in different types of management. And so this may be another one that everybody should maybe take a look at that could be interesting. I think it's fantastic. Or as to do management, you know directly so very cool. Scott, thanks for coming on the show. Appreciate you.  [00:18:39] Scott: My pleasure, Jason. Good to see you again  [00:18:41] Jason: Good to see you. All right So if you are a property management entrepreneur and you're dealing with frustrations, you can go start a storage unit business as well. So appreciate Scott for being on the show. If you would like our help in cleaning up your business so that you don't hate it and getting you out of that first level of exit of doing the frontline work and getting out of the next exit and the next exit until maybe eventually you decide to sell that business, we can help you with that because the more valuable you are to your property management business the less valuable your property management business is to everybody else. And what I find with clients is as we ascend them through these levels of exit, It becomes more and more business that they would enjoy keeping perhaps And so let's see if we can ascend you and get you past that first exit at least, maybe the next exit where you're out of managing the people in the team and you've got an operator and things are really smooth and so if you would like our help here DoorGrow reach out to us at DoorGrow.com And until next time, to our mutual growth. Bye everyone. [00:19:45] you just listened to the #DoorGrowShow. We are building a community of the savviest property management entrepreneurs on the planet in the DoorGrowClub. Join your fellow DoorGrow Hackers at doorgrowclub.com. Listen, everyone is doing the same stuff. SEO, PPC, pay-per-lead content, social direct mail, and they still struggle to grow!  [00:20:11] At DoorGrow, we solve your biggest challenge: getting deals and growing your business. Find out more at doorgrow.com. Find any show notes or links from today's episode on our blog doorgrow.com, and to get notified of future events and news subscribe to our newsletter at doorgrow.com/subscribe. Until next time, take what you learn and start DoorGrow Hacking your business and your life.

I don't have words to describe to you how important Scott's episode is to me. How profoundly honored I feel to be able to bring his story to you because of the trust he has in me. I'm in awe of Scott's story because of his depth of vulnerability, his presence, and the wisdom that pours through him. This isn't a "light" episode. It's raw. It's deep. It's in facing our humanity and the ways we cope with the darkness of the world we live in (and create) while running from ourselves. This episode matters. Scott's story matters. If you feel compelled, it would mean the world to me if you shared this episode because it's in our shared humanity and connection where healing happens.A note to Scott: You. are. incredible. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your willingness to share your story so that others may remember the Truth that there's an everlasting light flickering within them even when the darkness tries to tell you otherwise.My greatest hope for you is that you remember that wholeness is your birthright and the Truth of who you are. You are loved. You matter. You're worthy. You're enough. You belong.Normally, I don't put trigger warnings into my content, but because of the nature of what we explore - this feels important.Content warning This episode references the following:AddictionSelf-harm behaviorSuicide What you'll learn from our episode:Drop into Scott's guided meditation* to ground your energy and support your nervous system. His memories with his friends in Los Angeles and how those moments ignited his passion for hospitality.The eye-opening intuitive message Scott received while he was in a toxic relationship.The karmic cycles Scott became aware of and how he made the leap to leave the conventionally successful track he was on in favor of Soul alignment.His journey with stress, trauma, and how two incredible teachers saved his life.The divine way Yoga found Scott and how it expanded his awareness of the addictive behaviors he used to cope with stress.How the pandemic influenced his addiction and the choice he felt he had to make. The jaw-dropping synchronicity that changed the trajectory of his life.What Scott's recovery journey has looked like in discovering and living the 12-Steps.Why Scott admits that he's an addict.How to know when you're ready to change your life.How Scott uses fear as a tool for reconnecting to consciousness.The one thing you can do today if you're struggling in darkness.The wisdom given to Scott from an experience he had building a pink Ikea bed.What the path of a Yogi is. Connect with Scott:Hang out with him on Instagram.Reach out to Hello@AshleyMondor.com if you'd like to connect with Scott personally.Episode resources:R20 - Yoga-based recovery program founded by Tommy Rosen.SAMHSA National Helpline to find support.*Please do not listen to Scott's meditation while you're driving, watching children, or operating machinery. Safety first!Disclaimer: This podcast is for entertainment purposes only. Please consult with your doctor, therapist, or financial advisor for medical, mental health, or financial advice.

Get our newsletter free here or text “GRE” to 66866. In this podcast episode, host Keith Weinhold introduces Scott Saunders, a successful real estate investor who shares his insights and experiences in building a portfolio of 64 single-family rental properties.  They discuss the advantages of investing in cash-flowing rental properties, the importance of focusing on cash flow in the early stages, and the benefits of single-family rentals compared to multifamily properties.  Scott also discusses his analysis of different markets for real estate investment and his approach to financing and leveraging his investments.  They emphasize the importance of seeking professional advice and using resources like GREmarketplace.com for wealth building. Timestamps: The advantages of single family rentals [00:06:22] Scott discusses the advantages of investing in single family rentals, including better cap rates, long-term fixed-rate financing, and the inherent demand for single family homes. Greater liquidity with single family rentals [00:08:31] Scott and Keith talk about the liquidity component of single family rentals, highlighting that even in a recession, people will still need a place to live and therefore be buyers of single family homes. Longer tenancy duration in single family rentals [00:09:34] The discussion focuses on how tenants tend to stay longer in single family homes and duplexes compared to larger apartment buildings, often due to factors such as larger square footage and the desire to be in a specific school district. The importance of cash flow at the beginning [00:11:34] Starting with cash flow-centric properties and gradually moving towards appreciation as the portfolio grows. Scaling up the portfolio with short-term targets [00:14:55] Setting 90-day targets to buy a specific number of properties, leading to significant progress in a year. Factors in selecting the next market to buy in [00:18:24] Considerations include having a communicative property manager and existing opportunities in a market rather than solely focusing on a good deal. The importance of relationships in real estate investing [00:19:18] Scott discusses the significance of having a good relationship with property managers and asset providers in different markets. Factors to consider when choosing a real estate market [00:20:18] Scott talks about the importance of factors such as job growth, a diversified economy, and an influx of people when selecting a market to invest in. Using inflation as a tailwind in real estate investing [00:23:54] Scott explains how he leverages inflation to his advantage by locking in assets today and using inflation to propel his investing forward. The importance of 30-year fixed rate financing [00:28:12] Scott discusses the benefits of locking in a 30-year fixed rate for financing and shares his experience during the COVID-19 pandemic. Using paid-off assets as collateral for future financing [00:29:11] Scott explains his strategy of paying off some properties to use them as collateral for obtaining loans for future investments. Managing properties and involving family in real estate business [00:31:19] Scott talks about using Excel to track his rental income and involving his daughter in managing the financials of his real estate business. The goal of acquiring lifestyle assets [00:36:34] Scott Saunders discusses his long-term goal of purchasing properties in Tuscany, Italy, Steamboat Springs, Colorado, and other locations for both enjoyment and return on investment. The importance of return on attention [00:38:01] Scott explains the concept of return on attention, which focuses on having the freedom to enjoy life without being constantly distracted by financial concerns. The impact of purchasing single-family rentals [00:40:07] Scott emphasizes the benefits of purchasing 5 to 10 single-family rental properties, which can provide economic freedom and significantly improve one's financial situation. The disclaimer [00:46:07] The speaker provides a disclaimer stating that the show does not provide specific advice and encourages listeners to seek professional advice. Introduction [00:46:35] The speaker introduces the show and mentions the website getricheducation.com as the home for wealth building. Resources mentioned: Show Notes: www.GetRichEducation.com/458 Scott Saunders' resources: ScottRSaunders.com Get mortgage loans for investment property: RidgeLendingGroup.com or call 855-74-RIDGE  or e-mail: info@RidgeLendingGroup.com Find cash-flowing Jacksonville property at: www.JWBrealestate.com/GRE Invest with Freedom Family Investments. You get paid first: Text ‘FAMILY' to 66866 Will you please leave a review for the show? I'd be grateful. Search “how to leave an Apple Podcasts review”  Top Properties & Providers: GREmarketplace.com Best Financial Education: GetRichEducation.com Get our wealth-building newsletter free— text ‘GRE' to 66866 Our YouTube Channel: www.youtube.com/c/GetRichEducation Follow us on Instagram: @getricheducation Keith's personal Instagram: @keithweinhold   Complete episode transcript:   Speaker 1 (00:00:00) - Welcome to. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. A follower has built a multi-state portfolio of 64 single family rental properties. He'll tell us how he's doing it, how he finances them all, his management technique and his guiding success principles today on Get Rich education. With real estate capital Jacksonville. Real estate has outperformed the stock market by 44% over the last 20 years. It's proven to be a more stable asset, especially during recessions. Their vertically integrated strategy has led to 79% more home price appreciation compared to the average Jacksonville investor since 2013. GWB is ready to help your money make money and to make it easy for everyday investors. Get started at GWB Real estate agree that's GWB real estate.com slash.   Speaker 2 (00:01:00) - You're listening to the show that has created more financial freedom than nearly any show in the world. This is Get rich education.   Speaker 1 (00:01:23) - Hey, welcome to GRE. From the tropical currents in the Gulf of Mexico to the icy waters of Hudson Bay across the Americas in 188 world nations, this is get rich education where we just reach the 5 million listener download.   Speaker 1 (00:01:37) - Mark, I am grateful to you for that. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. Hey, a little context before we chat with our listener guests about the architecture of how he's building this robust 64 single family homes portfolio in growing across nine US states Once in a while. I like to drop things back for just a minute in case perhaps you're new here and you wonder how do people buy so many rental homes like adding ten every year? How am I supposed to do that? Well, of course, your speed of growth is going to be predicated on your income and some other things. But the best long term single-family rental homes, they're not 500 homes. They tend to be more like 200,000 homes in areas that are not upscale but yet safe, where you use a 20 to 25% down payment. And if you're new here and you have an aversion to debt, you know, I think that the simplest, most reassuring thing that I can tell a newcomer about real estate debt in just one sentence is that in a cash flowing rental, the tenant pays all of the debt for you, the principal, the interest, no matter what the interest rate is, all the operating expenses.   Speaker 1 (00:02:51) - And then a little on top of that called cash flow. Now, really, when you add the first few income properties to your life and you think about protecting your time, think about how that is a surrogate, a substitute to adding a part time job that can be a rather circuitous way of going about life, because what you really want is the income, not the job or not the lost time. So therefore add properties, not jobs. Most people think of financial improvement is cutting expenses. It is not. It is adding income. Then those the triadic income, many times they look to add a part time job. But I brazenly posit that income producing property is the way. And what do they call Ryan Seacrest the hardest working guy in show business? I guess if you wanted to, you could have as many part time jobs as Ryan Seacrest. Prepare yourself for drama on this stage.   Speaker 2 (00:03:54) - This is American Idol.   Speaker 1 (00:04:00) - Yeah, Ryan Seacrest. He will also become the Wheel of Fortune host starting next year along with the daytime talk show and being a producer and whatever else he does.   Speaker 1 (00:04:10) - I'm not really up on the latest. But yes, you want to have fewer jobs than Ryan Seacrest now speaking to your ROI, your return on time invested. You could get 64 single family rental homes like our guest today, and yet do it the wrong way. The wrong way might be say you live in a certain metro area and you buy all the properties just in your home metro so that the properties are spread, say one hour apart. That way you rationalize that you could self-manage, well, gosh, you'd be running all over the place. You'd have scores of tenants that could tax you. You'd almost be living at Home Depot, and after all that, you would still not be diversified because you'd only be in one metro market. Plus, how would you really ever get away on, say, a vacation? So that's probably not what you'd want either. Let's talk to our listener guest Scott, today and learn about how he does it. Here with me today is a great listener. Don't quit your day dream letter reader to discuss growing his Single-family rental portfolio.   Speaker 1 (00:05:22) - He's based in Colorado and he specializes in real estate in tax law. In fact, he often teaches real estate law to attorneys. He's a single family real estate investor that owns 64 single family rentals and four duplexes. So therefore, he owns 72 doors, 64 of which are single family rentals. And he owns those properties across nine different states Tennessee, Florida, Indiana, Missouri, Ohio, New Mexico, Colorado, Kansas and Arkansas. Higher mortgage rates aren't slowing him down as he's added six of those single family rentals this year. He's also a member of a Washington, D.C. based public policy organization that represents real estate interests. So he's really involved. He advocates for investor friendly tax policies with Congress. He's got a lot going on in his life. Hey, it's great to welcome on to Scott Saunders. Hey, Keith, Great to be with you. I'm a longtime follower and you have so many great nuggets of wisdom that you share, and it's just great. To visit with you for a few minutes.   Speaker 1 (00:06:22) - So thanks a lot. I appreciate that so much, Scott. Now, in the real estate world, there are pros and cons between single family rentals and larger apartments. Apartments have a certain economies of scale advantage, but single family rentals have advantages that some people overlook. So talk to us about why you like single family rentals so much. Happy to do that. I think single family rentals are, first of all, a great entryway to get into investment real estate. But some people kind of springboard. They get into single family and then they want to go into duplexes, four Plex apartments, Single family is an asset class. You know, if you just look at it, it has so many advantages. The cap rate on a single family is typically better than a lot of commercial buildings right now. You can lock in long term fixed rate financing. So even if the rate's a tad higher, you go into an apartment building or commercial, you've got to refinance. And as we all know right now in the marketplace, there are some commercial properties that are facing some significant distress because they're having to refinance at higher rates.   Speaker 1 (00:07:29) - Single family, you lock it in for 30 years and fix that. You've got buyer.   Speaker 3 (00:07:34) - Pool. I can sell a single family to an investor or a homeowner. So there just are a lot of advantages and maybe even just at the most basic level, we all need to live somewhere, right? And so a choice of an apartment or a single family. So many people like the freedom, the room, the convenience, the yard, the garage that comes with a single family. So I just think there's a lot of inherent demand where people want to be in that type of property, either as a renter or a homeowner. So I'm a big fan of buying a single family home, buy another one, you know, and just continue scaling in that niche. I call it Get Rich in a niche, right? And that's the single family rental niche.   Speaker 1 (00:08:16) - Sure. I had some apartment buildings that I sold recently that had balloon loans that were about to expire. And you mentioned the liquidity component where you have greater liquidity with single family rentals regardless of when it is in the cycle.   Speaker 1 (00:08:31) - Even if it were a recession, borderline depression, people will be a buyer because they need a place to live. But a person doesn't always need to invest in an apartment building regardless of where we're at in the economic cycle.   Speaker 3 (00:08:45) - Absolutely. Well, smart timing on your part to kind of see where those loans are going. And I think that there's a good time to maybe redeploy that capital somewhere else. So I like single family, and I think you can really grow and scale a portfolio. I mean, think of it this way, Keith. What if I needed to raise some cash? What if I had a medical need? I could unload a single family home or two right away. Now, I know from listening to your teaching, you'd say, don't sell it, refinance it. Right, harvest that equity. And that would be my first bet. But if I needed to generate cash, it's not that hard to unload some smaller single family rentals. And within a matter of a few months I could liquidate that and get the cash.   Speaker 3 (00:09:26) - Some apartment buildings, you know, in some markets it could take a long time to find the right buyer in some places.   Speaker 1 (00:09:34) - Now, during that whole time on a single family rental, you mentioned the cap rates. Oftentimes single family rentals are more profitable than what an investor projects. And one reason is that greater tenancy duration tenants tend to stay in single family homes and duplexes longer than they do a larger apartment building. Oftentimes it's because it feels like their own single family homes just tend to have more square footage, which lends to having larger families. We have a larger family. It just tends toward people wanting to stay longer and not uproot, and they get invested in things like buying to be in a certain school district, for example, where more single family homes tend to be than apartment buildings.   Speaker 3 (00:10:18) - Absolutely. You know, you bring that up. My very first investment years ago was a fourplex, kind of a C class neighborhood. And when I bought it, I naively write. I look back at it now, I thought, well, if this is fully occupied, look at what the money will make.   Speaker 3 (00:10:33) - The reality was there was a lot of turnover at that particular area. People came and went. It wasn't the top of the line. It wasn't a top tier neighborhood. And so I found that I was always chasing people and it was never in my case, fully occupied. And that tenant turn, that's expensive, as you well know. When you turn tenants, you have lost rent. You got to fix it up. So a single family home. I've had properties that my longest one I had attended stay in one for 15 years. I don't think you're going to find that in a multifamily property.   Speaker 1 (00:11:06) - Yeah, that really is rather unlikely. I know in that first fourplex you bought, you tended to do some things where later you learned that those were mistakes, like doing some excessive landscaping and spending a lot on fencing and. For a nice driveway so that you get a better quality tenant. But sometimes you learn you can only attract a certain quality tenant based on the neighborhood that you're already in. That's why oftentimes it's better to buy a lesser property in a better neighborhood.   Speaker 1 (00:11:34) - For example. Looking back and we'll get into your journey in a bit about how you've added all these properties, but one takeaway that you've had is that it's better to focus on cash flow at the beginning, more so that appreciation. So therefore getting a Class B or C property, which you probably don't want to stoop too low, or you also might have a bad experience at the beginning. So talk to us about the importance of for many people think they want to start with cash flow centric properties at the beginning and then maybe new build appreciation ones later.   Speaker 3 (00:12:03) - I agree. I think when you go into an asset that produces a cash flow, it kind of gives you the fuel to start growing, right? You get some positive reinforcement, but it also gives you the capital to go out and buy more assets. So I think that. BK and maybe call it B to C plus starting there, you know, getting 250 to 300 an asset in cash flow, you get one of those, you get three, you're talking about $1,000, you've got six.   Speaker 3 (00:12:29) - Now you're 2000. And at that point, when you get to maybe 6 to 10 properties, the cash flow is now helping to contribute your down payment to go out and buy another asset. So I personally think you kind of start with that maybe as your gateway for your first 5 or 10, get some momentum and then maybe later. So we all know an A-class property in a great neighborhood with great schools. It might appreciate better long term. And so I lean towards building the cash flow on the front end and then moving over into more appreciation as the portfolio grows. So there are merits on both sides. There's not a right or wrong way to do it, but that I think gets your average investor with some momentum. You know, you want to create momentum, you want to start buying assets. And so the cash flow allows you to buy assets faster than waiting for appreciation to kind of carry you up. That rising tide lifts all boats saying that'll happen over time, but get the momentum with the cash flow to help augment and help you buy more assets quickly.   Speaker 3 (00:13:33) - I tend to lean towards that approach. Again, no right or wrong, Keith, I'll tell you, I've done it wrong. I started out buying some A-class, about five new homes, and now those have produced good appreciation, but I didn't have much cash flow off them, so I had a little modest cash flow. I do things differently looking back, but I'm still moving forward. Real estate corrects, right? It's like a bad haircut and not that I would really know, but you can get a bad haircut and give it a 4 or 6 weeks and it'll grow out in a way you go and it covers over any mistakes that Barber made.   Speaker 1 (00:14:07) - Yeah, real estate's very forgiving over the long term. I kind of think of real estate as a game of attrition as long as you buy, right? Even if there is a bit of a mistake or a stumble, when you have five simultaneous ways that you're paid, you're going to feel that sooner than later. Scott You've really done a great job of scaling up your portfolio.   Speaker 1 (00:14:30) - Last I checked, you were in nine different markets. I mentioned the nine states that you were in earlier and you have 18 different property managers now. Can you talk to us more about how you scaled that? You talk to us about how it might be best to get that snowball rolling sooner with cash flow, but how do you scale up and ramp up to where you're at today with 72 doors, 64 of them single family rentals?   Speaker 3 (00:14:55) - Oh, what I'll do, Keith, I'll share what I did to kind of get there. And I want to be candid with you and listeners of that. I probably made a mistake doing that. I don't think everybody has to be in that many markets, that many managers. So what I did, quite frankly, it sounds so simple. I said a 90 day target. So I would say I'm going to buy X number of properties. That was a do or die goal. It wasn't an annual goal. If I wanted to buy three in that 90 day period, I would make sure no matter what, I bought three assets.   Speaker 3 (00:15:26) - So what happened was I maybe bought in different states to get the job done. I had to buy quickly, right? I was focused on adding my numbers. So for me, having that short term target that I looked at every day in the morning and the night that gave me the focus. So I wasn't looking over three years. I was like, What do I need to do in the next three months? And I really applied everything to doing that. And so you figure if you do a three month period, you pick up three, but you do that every quarter, that's 12 new assets in a year. That's big progress in just annual time frame. So that's what I did. 90 day targets were the game changer for me. Now, you shared kind of the downside of that and that I'm probably over diversified, I would say probably in my level being in three, four states, half the states and maybe two thirds less property managers would be more. Just from a relationship standpoint. So that was a mistake.   Speaker 3 (00:16:25) - And, you know, I can correct for it Over time. I'll probably do 1030 ones out of some of the states and consolidate in areas that I like. But that was how I did it is I just identified a lot of Midwest type markets that are good cash flow markets. And when I saw an opportunity, I grabbed it a few of them. Keith I buy one and then the next door, somebody was doing a renovation next door. And there are a few streets, right? Three houses right next to one another as a result of that. So that's kind of been interesting. And then I also find is word got out that I was buying. I had people approach me and say, Look, I've got a package of properties. Would you like the whole package or part of the package? And so that helped me a little bit. So instead of doing one loan on three different properties three times, I do one larger loan purchase, three properties at once. And so it gave me a little bit of efficiency.   Speaker 3 (00:17:19) - Now that didn't happen on all of them, but over time I've been doing more of that. My last one this year I bought four assets in Tennessee from one seller as a package deal, and that makes it a little bit easier.   Speaker 1 (00:17:32) - Yeah, I want to get into that financing piece shortly, but I think the important thing is you acted, you jumped in and once you do that, more opportunities begin to present themselves. And not everyone does everything the right way. If you've got 18 property managers you're dealing with, which would be a lot. I mean, if you get one monthly email statement from property manager that's getting one a little bit more than every other day, if one would happen to do it that way. I've often talked about how three, 4 or 5 markets to be in that number probably is a good number where you have adequate diversification, yet it hasn't overcomplicated your life administratively at the same time. But with that in mind, Scott, as you're growing your portfolio, what makes you decide what market to buy in next? Oftentimes it's not the sort of thing that you think it will be, just like you had an opportunity to present itself.   Speaker 1 (00:18:24) - For example, if you buy in a market and you find that you have a really communicative property manager that you really like in that market, you might buy in that market where you know you've already got a good manager, for example, rather than just what appears to be a good deal on the surface. So what are some of the factors that go into what make you decide which market to select next?   Speaker 3 (00:18:43) - Scott I've done a lot of analysis and there are a lot of good markets. You know, one thing, there's no perfect market. You and I probably know 20, 30, 40 good markets where people can make money that have good growing economies, populations growing. There's pressure on rents and appreciation. So I've identified some that I like. Would you just alluded to is really one of the factors now, which is more of a relationship, right? I've consolidated over, so I have a good property manager in Memphis, Tennessee. I've got a great working relationship with them and then also a provider of assets.   Speaker 3 (00:19:18) - And so for me, I'm finding having that relationship makes things a little smoother. There's a trust factor when you manage remotely. I haven't seen most of my assets and I do very little in my own home state. So for me, it's really important that I can trust who I'm working with out of state. And so I find having that relationship makes me more likely to purchase more properties in that particular market because I've got that. So Saint Louis, Missouri is one market. Memphis, Tennessee is another. Those are some markets that I like. Now, some of them have great fundamentals. You know, Memphis, number one airport in the entire country, you've got a waterway, you've got a lot of highways that converge there. You've got a lot of industrial Nike's there, Amazon. So there are, you know, kind of a multitude of factors. You know, right now in Memphis, you've got the blue oval development, which is the Ford. They're going to build battery trucks. And I think it's a $10 billion plant they're putting in.   Speaker 3 (00:20:18) - Well, that's going to be a huge draw for jobs. So I tend to look for jobs, a diversified economy. I like to see an influx of people coming into the market. So that's the big macro. When I look at my investment, I try to get fairly close to that 1% rule if I can. You know, I don't have to hit it perfectly, but that's kind of a decent benchmark on an asset. I like to get fairly close.   Speaker 1 (00:20:44) - You're listening to Get Rich Education. We're talking with super real estate investor on Single-family turnkey Homes, Scott Saunders. When we come back, including how did he do it with the financing and what does he do to manage all this? You're listening to Get Resuscitation. I'm your host, Keith Weinhold. You know, I'll just tell you, for the most passive part of my real estate investing personally, I put my own dollars with Freedom family investments because their funds pay me a stream of regular cash flow in. Returns are better than a bank savings account up to 12%.   Speaker 1 (00:21:18) - Their minimums are as low as 25 K. You don't even need to be accredited. For some of them, it's all backed by real estate and that kind of love. How the tax benefit of doing this can offset capital gains and your W-2 jobs income. And they've always given me exactly their stated return paid on time. So it's steady income, no surprises while I'm sleeping or just doing the things I love. For a little insider tip, I've invested in their power fund to get going on that text family to 668660, and this isn't a solicitation If you want to invest where I do, just go ahead and text family to six six, 866. Jerry listeners can't stop talking about their service from Ridge Lending Group and MLS 42056. They've provided our tribe with more loans than anyone. They're truly a top lender for beginners and veterans. It's where I go to get my own loans for single family rental property up to four plex. So start your prequalification and you can chat with President Charlie Ridge personally, though even deliver your custom plan for growing your real estate portfolio.   Speaker 1 (00:22:30) - Start at Ridge Lending Group. This is real estate investment coach Naresh Vissa. Don't live below your means.   Speaker 2 (00:22:45) - Grow your needs.   Speaker 1 (00:22:46) - Listen to Get Rich Education with Keith Weinhold. Welcome back to Get Rich Education we're talking with Scott Saunders get rich education listener owner of 64 single family rental properties. He really loves single family and he's still buying now. But Scott, some people have slowed down their buying with higher mortgage rates. They're not adding properties nearly as quickly. But still, really the question I asked myself is where could I invest better dollar today than in rental property? Of course, inflation debases that debt for us, and then when inflation and interest rates drop, I can refinance. And you've added just about 60 properties in the last four and a half years. So tell us about that.   Speaker 3 (00:23:39) - I have added a lot of them recently and it started again with setting those goals and I'm keeping up the momentum now. You know, I realized the rates have changed. This is still a good time to be a buyer If you're in certain markets.   Speaker 3 (00:23:54) - There are good purchases out there. So I'm able to negotiate a little better with sellers, maybe get a little concession where they'll give a couple points towards my rate or the closing cost. I couldn't get that and the go go days, people are doing that. And the way I look at it is I'm really making an investment now in an asset, right? What is a single family home? It's just a bunch of commodities glass, bricks, wood. And with inflation, we know commodities are going to go up. So I'm locking in that today and I'm going to really use inflation as a tailwind to propel my investing forward, whether that's with rents and appreciation, whether it's debasing my good business debt, I'm using that as a tailwind. And I'll tell you my personal opinion, Keith, I'll go on record on this. People are going to kick themselves a few years down the road when rates go down, whenever that is for not purchasing now, because when rates go down, it's going to create more demand.   Speaker 3 (00:24:54) - And I think you're going to lock in today's pricing now and somewhere rates will change. I don't know when, but nobody has that crystal ball. When they do, prices are going to pop up, I think, at that time. And so people are like, oh, I should have bought back in 2023. I don't want to do the woulda, coulda, shoulda. I'd rather make smart baby steps now. Just keep buying chunking along slow and steady and locking in assets today that I know five, ten years from now, my future self is going to be glad that I took action today.   Speaker 1 (00:25:30) - Now, I know that you, the listener, must be thinking, yes, I do want to buy more property here. But how to Scott add so many properties so fast and that really guides us into the financing. What do you do for the financing of these properties? Because of course for single people, those golden ticket Fannie Freddie loans run out at ten.   Speaker 3 (00:25:52) - One of the biggest things is getting over that hurdle of those lower rates.   Speaker 3 (00:25:57) - So I do what's called non QM or what they're also called DSR financing, where the load is made based upon the asset and the cash flow the asset produces. So these are going to be a little bit higher rate, a touch higher. But once you get into them and you get comfortable, you realize this is what all the big players do. People that buy commercial properties, that's how they buy them. So I'm using a rate that's a touch higher, but now I've got a great working relationship. I have one particular lender. I've done 40 loans with them directly, not with the broker. I go direct to the lender, save some money, and I'll literally email over to that lender at night. I'm buying just one of their contract on two more assets, and it's really easy to do the loan. So I find what's called non QM, which stands for Non-qualifying Mortgage, that type of financing. I actually prefer it. It's easier. I don't have to provide every financial statement, you know, updated within the last 30 days.   Speaker 3 (00:26:58) - I actually find it's an easier approach. And as long as you look at the numbers and you still have positive cash flow. So today maybe I'm positive $200 where a year and a half ago I might have been positive 3 or 350. So it takes me five assets to get another thousand in cash flow today where I could have done that and maybe three or so a little while back. Okay, I'm just buying more assets, right? I win with that because I'm still locking in more of those commodities in those assets. And so I just that inflation raised that up over time and I just get the benefit of it. So now instead of fighting against inflation, I'm using inflation to move me forward.   Speaker 1 (00:27:41) - About dcr loans, debt service coverage ratio loans which are used more commonly in the five plus apartment space area. That is one option for one after they run out of their ten golden ticket Fannie Freddie loans that are at the best rates in terms. Can you tell us more about those terms of the hours? Are you getting a longer term fixed rate? Do you need to put a greater percent down for those?   Speaker 3 (00:28:08) - Most of mine are relatively close to a conventional loan.   Speaker 3 (00:28:12) - You can get those with 20% down. I have chosen in some cases to put down maybe 25%, but I'm getting in almost all situations 30 year fixed rate financing. To me, I want to fix that debt service and have it locked in. So that's really important. So I'm a big believer in 30 year fixed rate. I did have during Covid right at the beginning and I had some assets under contract. You couldn't get a loan. It was very difficult. March, April, May and I had deals closing. Then I had lender that I had to get the lender that they required me to put down 40%. So I had to put a bigger down payment to get it done. At the time, Keith, I was like, Oh, I'm not getting as much leverage. My money's not working quite as hard. Now, that was several years ago, and a few of those because they were smaller assets. I've got little small loans on them where and I want to be careful because I know your view on debt.   Speaker 3 (00:29:11) - I'm going to be paying some of them off, not to have them free and clear, but to use those as a resource as collateral. So I can go to a bank and say, Look, I'm going to pledge this collateral. Let's say ten homes that are free and clear, you give me a loan and now I'll use that loan to do some other things, probably like hard money, loans, private lending. So I'm going to use those paid off assets as a tool for me to do some financing, some creative financing deals in the future. So it's a means to an end. It's a stepping stone to go a little bit deeper and use the banks money for me to make more money in the future. So that's kind of what I'll be doing there.   Speaker 1 (00:29:51) - All right. It sounds like you still want to keep most of them leverage. Are you talking about the advantages of having a few of them paid off and therefore really so that you can borrow against the value of those paid off properties? So really, you're just paying them off to effectively use leverage again in a different way?   Speaker 3 (00:30:08) - Precisely.   Speaker 3 (00:30:09) - That's exactly what I'm going to do is bundle those together and those become collateral. So exactly. I'm going to relieve them maybe in a different fashion. So I am a huge fan of good business debt. It's one of those things is concepts. So you got to wrap your head around it at the beginning because we're beat into our brains that, you know, debt is bad, but good business debt is not only good, it's great. It allows you to multiply your efforts faster than you could with your own capital. So to take the bank's capital and use that to get ahead, that to me is is a smart move 100%.   Speaker 1 (00:30:50) - So you've got this robust portfolio spread across several different states. You've even admitted probably dealing currently with more managers than you even want to. And it makes one wonder, is there any particular type of management software that you use? Now, of course, each one of your individual property managers, 18 of them, they have their own management software. But how does that work? How do you manage all this? Do you really get 18 monthly statement emails from 18 property managers each month?   Speaker 3 (00:31:19) - I do actually get 18 different emails and statements a month.   Speaker 3 (00:31:23) - I'll tell you what I've done, Keith. I'm very low tech. I'll be honest. I use Excel to track things and what I've done, which is kind of a fun thing for me. My youngest daughter, who, believe it or not, actually owns. She bought her first single family home at age 16. She's been watching me. She actually helps me now track my rental income and work with the financials. So I've hired her in my real estate business. She now gets all the statements she puts in, puts everything into my spreadsheet and then runs the reports for me. So it's been kind of neat in that I get the data I need, but I'm also training my kid about real estate. And not only that, I actually include her on my emails, so she has a real estate specific email. When I reply to my property manager about an issue, I'll copy her so she sees my thinking how I do it. So I'm trying to be strategic, realizing I'm not going to be around forever.   Speaker 3 (00:32:21) - Someday my kids are going to get a pile of real estate and I want them to know what to do with it when they get it, that they walk into it and they're like, okay, I kind of know what to do versus selling it all off and then giving the money to Wall Street, which is I would hate to have that happen. So I'm. Try to bring them along.   Speaker 1 (00:32:41) - Despite the fact you use Excel. You talk about how you're relatively low tech. I'm, in fact, impressed with that because it demonstrates to me that, you know, the proper formulas to use in Excel and which numbers actually matter to drive your current and future investment decisions. So that actually tells me a lot that you really understand what's going on behind the scenes and you don't have it too automated. Also, when you're involved like this, which is a sense that you just cannot get being a stock investor where your profits are really coming from and where they're really not coming from. Having one of your children involved that is huge at building this legacy wealth piece like we talked about on the show last month and helping ensure that there is generational wealth in your family, like with your daughter.   Speaker 1 (00:33:26) - Now, she understands where it comes from and what it takes. So I absolutely love that piece. Scott We talk about what drives investment decisions. We talk about how you've acquired and you've held some properties. What about the time to sell? For example, I like to buy turnkey investments that already have the renovation done, or they're just brand new and oftentimes like to just hold them 7 to 10 years because in 7 to 10 years, in the last three years, it's been as short as three years, those properties have gone up in value enough where the leverage ratio was cut such that I either want to do a cash out refinance or a 1031 exchange, not get too emotional about properties, only hold them seven years, rarely if ever, more than ten years. What are your thoughts with the whole time and the duration?   Speaker 3 (00:34:09) - I'm fairly similar to you on that. I do. My preference is turnkey. That's what most of my portfolio is. So I'm buying stuff that's already been renovated after, you know, 10 to 15 years.   Speaker 3 (00:34:21) - And that window, that's when you're going to start to see roof issues, the furnace, the AC. So my plan would then be to do a 1031 roll out and get more turnkey. So let's say I take one single family home that might allow me to go out and buy 2 or 3 more single family homes, probably ten years max would be what I would be doing. And I did that. I rolled out A1A couple of years ago. I had one single family in Arizona exchanged out of it, and I bought four in Saint Louis, one in Memphis. I got a much better return on my investment. So to think of if you take my portfolio today, right in the 60s, if I can roll out of that and go up to, let's say 120 or 130, that's going to give me some significant scale and benefits. So that would be my plan. I'll never sell and pay the taxes. I always do it 1031 or I'll refinance to harvest equity.   Speaker 1 (00:35:17) - If you're a brand new listener and you don't know what a 1031 tax deferred exchange is, the short story on that is it basically allows you to roll your profits from appreciation into another property, either multiple properties or a larger property is what it usually is with you being able to 100% defer the tax.   Speaker 1 (00:35:37) - And there's no limit to the number of times you can do that. Therefore, it should become a tax free event. You can defer that tax your entire life by trading up with that. 1031 also called a 1031 like kind exchange. As you go along, I know that you've got some great philosophy, Scott. I mean, first of all, you're a goal driven guy, so you have these longer term goals. And you mentioned you also have these shorter term milestones, like a 90 day goal on your way to those longer term goals. For one that hasn't heard the acronym before, Goals should be smart, that is specific, measurable, achievable, relevant and time bound. That's what differentiates a goal from a wish. So tell us about your goals and how that drives this. Scott.   Speaker 3 (00:36:22) - My duals. I do every three months. I do have a short term goal and I've got some For this year. I'll probably pick up 15 properties. I think I'm halfway through the year. I'm on track, so I'll do that.   Speaker 3 (00:36:34) - I've got some long term goals. One of them just before I left on vacation a couple of weeks ago, I'm under contract on a property in Tuscany, Italy, so I can have what I call a lifestyle asset. So one of my goals would be to get a few lifestyle assets. I want to buy a place in Steamboat Springs, Colorado, enjoyed some of the year, rent it out other times. So one goal would be picking up a few of these. That would be something that I can enjoy and my kids can enjoy, but it also produced a return. So it's a twofer. I gave money on it and I get to enjoy it. That's a big long term goal of doing that. So Tuscany, I like to do a place in Sardinia, Italy, which is the most beautiful beaches, gorgeous. The mountains may be a place in Florida, so I like to pick up over the next few years, maybe a property a year in that category. That's just something that's fun.   Speaker 3 (00:37:25) - It doesn't make any sense to work really hard and save if you can't enjoy life, right? I mean, that's the whole goal is to get free where you can enjoy your time and enjoy spending time with the ones you care about. So I want to transition that way into Tastic.   Speaker 1 (00:37:42) - Yeah, spending time in Tuscany was part of perhaps the best week of my life personally, part of your philosophies. It's not just having tangible goals, it's you call something rather than an ROI in ROA, and it's that the return on a realisation that I talk about.   Speaker 3 (00:38:01) - Yeah, what that is, you know, so many people have heard of ROI, which is a return on investment and we kind of get bottlenecked around that, right? Looking at our return, you know, 7%, 8%, 1619 And there's a lot of focus. What I tend to do, and this actually came through a good friend of mine, Rick ROA, is return on attention. Yeah. Looking at our life from a time standpoint.   Speaker 3 (00:38:25) - So when we look at ROI, we're looking at money dollars return on attention. We're now measuring things in time, right? What do we have the free time to enjoy without having to be distracted with following the stock market every day? And is it up or down? Or what's the Fed doing? So return on attention to me is actually more important than the ROI. And I know we're on a podcast talking about real estate, so surely making wise investment decisions is important. But if I look at where I am in life, more important to me is my return on attention than my return on my investment. So I want to have my attention free that I can enjoy what's around me while I'm young enough and vibrant enough to enjoy it. So I just got back from travel and Saint Lucia had a wonderful time out there. I love to travel. I typically do an international trip probably every quarter or so. I'm taking my son to Morocco, did an African safari. We did Iceland swam with whale sharks last year.   Speaker 3 (00:39:30) - Portugal. I want to spend time with the people I care about and travel is a part of that and having my attention freed up so I can do that. That actually is a big principle. It's a big objective is having my time freed up and my attention freed up.   Speaker 1 (00:39:47) - Wealth is measured in time, not dollars. You and I sure do agree there. Scott is we're about to wrap up here. I know you often talk to people about the importance of taking action and just sort of getting those base hits and how do you think that people would have more economic freedom if they just purchased 5 to 10 single family rentals?   Speaker 3 (00:40:07) - Absolutely. And it's not that hard, right? You get over the first one's the hardest and then you get a little momentum after that, Right. The first one hard, the second one, you've just doubled the size of your real estate portfolio. You go to four, you quadrupled your first one. And I think the magic number to hit is get to five and add five assets.   Speaker 3 (00:40:28) - You typically have enough rental income coming in that it's pretty close to being self-sustaining. So if you have one vacancy, you're going to typically have pretty much enough rental income to do it. So getting to five and then pushing on to 10 or 15, that can change so many people's lives. Just that small thing for the average American. If you had ten single family rental homes, you'd be light years ahead of the people that are doing all the 401. And Wall Street racket stuff.   Speaker 1 (00:40:59) - That's so on point. Yeah, you are really doing the things. Scott, before I ask you how our audience can learn more about you, do you have any last thoughts? Anything else you'd like to discuss maybe that did not come up with scaling up this terrific Single-family rental portfolio and how that's enhancing your life.   Speaker 3 (00:41:18) - I'll give two quick tidbits to kind of wrap things up here. Keith, it's been great visiting with you. I've been a longtime follower and just love all the information you bring out and the resources, so it's great to visit with you in person.   Speaker 3 (00:41:30) - Two things. One, I would say use the tax code, use guys like Tom Lehrer write, read those books, figure out how to master the tax code. A lot of people don't do that. They're intimidated by taxes and the IRS go after that and it'll give you more capital to grow your portfolio. The other one, I would say, and I think you alluded to it, is don't be paralyzed by inaction. Don't do that analysis paralysis thing of is this good or not? My whole philosophy is I never try to hit a home run. I don't need the best performing investment. I just need a good investment. And you know, in a portfolio, I've some that have been stellar and I've had 1 or 2 dogs like anybody would. When you get a bunch of them, my feedback would be, if you're not in the game of real estate, put all your focus on to getting that first one and then jump to your second translated into action rather than overanalyzing. So on your show, you've got a lot of great resources of turnkey providers.   Speaker 3 (00:42:29) - In many of the markets that I'm in pick market, take action and jump in. You'll be so much farther ahead by taking action than by studying and running formulas and spreadsheets. Get into the game, buy the first property, buy the second push with some short term goals, and then all of a sudden you're using all of these economic forces to get ahead in life and they're not fighting against you. And I think what that does is now you're swimming downstream, so to speak, rather than fighting upstream. That's what all these inflationary forces that you talk about all the time do. So get in, start swimming downstream, join it. I want to see more people in America that have freedom and have some independence and are benefiting from the economic forces rather than getting crushed by those same economic forces.   Speaker 1 (00:43:21) - And it starts with just getting your first base hit. Well, this has been terrific, Scott. How can our audience learn more about you?   Speaker 3 (00:43:29) - I've got a website up. It's my name, so it's Scott R Saunders.   Speaker 3 (00:43:35) - Sanders And that's got a little more background. And I've got for people that are interested, I put together a course of how to kind of get into single family and scale it and grow it. So for those that is appropriate, I'm happy to be a resource in that department there at that website.   Speaker 1 (00:43:54) - Scott has been such a great chat. Our audience is going to benefit from it. Thanks so much for coming on to the show.   Speaker 3 (00:44:00) - It's been a blast. Thanks, Keith.   Speaker 1 (00:44:07) - Yeah, great stuff from Scott. We do a lot of things the same way as far as having remote managers in multiple markets. I've also never seen most of my properties in person, nor do I need to. We often buy multiple properties at once. I like to buy at least two single family rentals at a time to make things more efficient. But big picture, we are not postponing life and are traveling to great places. As I'm fond of saying, some delayed gratification is good, but the risk of too much delayed gratification is denied gratification, which is the road of the 401 plan, which is also known as a life deferral plan.   Speaker 1 (00:44:49) - Scott is currently meeting with our provider of Chattanooga Properties on Marketplace. It is rare to see Crest buying properties in Jerry Marketplace. I guess I'm actually not sure we might have to turn him onto it so that he can quit one of those part time jobs. He's got pretty cool part time jobs, though. He's not breaking his back like a longshoreman. Yeah. Jerry Marketplace. That is where you find the right properties that really are just never going to make it out onto the open market at all. And they're the ones that are conducive to this strategy. Lower cost properties that have a high ratio of rent income to a low purchase price, they're typically fully renovated with a tenant from day one where an experienced manager also manages it for you from day one, if you so choose. And it's free. Just creating one log in one time like thousands of others have, gives you access to nationwide providers. We've even got free coaching for you there if you so choose. Knowledge really isn't power in itself. Knowledge plus action is what's powerful.   Speaker 1 (00:45:56) - Get started at GRC marketplace.com until next week I'm your host Keith Winfield. Don't quit your day dream.   Speaker 4 (00:46:07) - Nothing on this show should be considered specific, personal or professional advice. Please consult an appropriate tax, legal, real estate, financial or business professional for individualized advice. Opinions of guests are their own information is not guaranteed. All investment strategies have the potential for profit or loss. The host is operating on behalf of Get Rich Education LLC exclusively.   Speaker 1 (00:46:35) - The preceding program was brought to you by your home for wealth building get rich education. Com.    

For this episode of the eCom Logistics Podcast, we welcome Scott Weiss, Vice President Technical Sales-Warehousing and Distribution Services at Maersk North America. Today, he shares his thoughts on why many brands and 3PL relationships end up falling apart and how to approach issues that arise within the partnership. ABOUT SCOTTScott Weiss has over 25 years of 3PL warehouse and distribution leadership experience.  As Vice President of Technical Sales, Scott oversees the Warehouse and Distribution sales for Maersk North America.  Founded in 1904, A.P. Moller - Maersk is an integrated, asset-based logistics company working to connect and simplify its customers' supply chains from factory to door.   As the global leader in logistics services, the company operates in 130 countries and employs more than 100,000 people worldwide with 550 global warehouses.  Maersk is one of the leading omni-channel logistics providers in North America that operates over 7,000 trucks, 158 warehouses, and 26 million square feet of warehouse space with an extensive list of e-commerce, wholesale, and retail companies ranging from start-up to CPG Fortune 500 companies.  Scott holds an M.B.A. degree in Management from California State University, Fullerton; a B.S. Degree with a triple concentration in Finance, Banking, and Real Estate from San Francisco State University; and Global Logistics Specialist (GLS) designation from California State University, Long Beach.  He resides in Malibu, CA. HIGHLIGHTS01:31 Majority of brand-3PL relationships end in a divorce07:00 3PLs are at a good position to be supply chain advisors for midmarket brands09:49 What clients ask for when it comes to helping with sourcing a product13:01 Pros and cons of a single node network15:42 Are customers asking for automation and robotics? QUOTES10:35 What to consider from sourcing the product to delivery - Scott: "You need to look at the whole picture. Inbound, real estate,  labor, and outbound, before you can give them the answer. So with global supply chain, looking at that whole piece of a puzzle is the only way you're going to give the best possible answer and recommendations."  16:37 Protect your workforce - Scott: "Employee retention, I've seen a big increase for companies that have their own warehousing 3PLs. The value of treating an employee and taking care of them has never been higher. That's one thing that came out of COVID that companies frankly did not pay as much attention to before." Find out more about Scott in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottweisslogistics/Website: https://www.maersk.com/

Scott Dennis, Assistant Superintendent of the Maryland Division of Rehabilitative Services (DORS), joins Carol Pankow in the VRTAC-QM Studio and tells us about how Maryland DORS increased recruitment and decreased resignations by raising salaries to compete in the regional job market. Learn how they opened the door and proved the case.   Listen Here   Full Transcript:   Music} Speaker1: Manager Minute brought to you by the VRTAC for Quality Management, Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host Carol Pankow.   Carol: Well, welcome to the Manager Minute. Scott Dennis, assistant superintendent of the Maryland Division of Rehabilitative Services or DORS, is joining me in the studio today. So thanks for joining me. How are things going in Maryland, Scott.   Scott: Things are going well, Carol. I appreciate the opportunity to join today's podcast. Excellent.   Carol: So a little background for our listeners. I did have some familiarity with Maryland DORS. I had worked with Sue Page. She was the former director and a national level. We were on the executive committee together and Sue and I also did a couple panel presentations and that was super fun. And I was so disappointed, you know, when she had retired in '18, I had just worked with her. And then like the next week she goes, I'm retiring. She had sent me a note and I knew you had been her deputy and I think you were named right in 2019 to replace her, was that right?   Scott: Yeah. I came into this position an acting role in 2018. Sue left in June of 2018 and I was named, the Acting. Was permanently placed into the position in January of 2019.   Carol: Gotcha.   Scott: Almost five years now.   Carol: Nice. Well, it was really fun because early in '19 you and I, we were working on that RSA workgroup around Rethinking Performance. So I liked getting to know you and realizing, Oh, you're the fiscal guy too. You were the fiscal guy for the agency. So it's been fun to have that kind of a little lens into your agency. So I know you've had some unique challenges that we're going to get into later. And I understand that there had been some previous runs at trying to get employee wages increased, which, you know, had failed. So this was all prior to you being at the helm. And the state of the recruitment and retention issue nationally has been front and center for every VR agency, I think. And you were able to more recently secure a rather significant employee pay increase. So I am sure our listeners are on the edge of their seats and are anxious to hear, How did you make that happen? So let's dig in. So Scott, can you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself, like how long you've been with DORS and how have you got to the position you hold today? What's kind of the path you took?   Scott: Well, sure. I kind of happened into VR. I was working in a private sector in retail and was looking to do something different than that. And as anybody who's ever worked in retail, there's a lot of long hours that are very odd and so forth. So I was looking to do something different and happened to come across an advertisement in the paper for a director for this program called the Business Enterprise Program for the Blind.   Carol: Oh, wow.   Scott: It kind of struck me. And so I said, Well, I've got a retail background, I've got a business background, let me get my shot at it. And so I put in my application and went through the interview process. And about four months later in 1990, I became the director of the Maryland Business Enterprise Program for the Blind, which was kind of unique because my background was not in the area of either VR or in blindness, but I did bring that business background, which is what the agency at the time was looking for. It was a great experience. The business enterprise programs for the blind bring their own unique challenges and so forth, and trying to operate a business environment inside of a state government. And you've got some real challenges in trying to do stuff fast and an organization is trying to slow you down. But it was a great experience. I was the director for BEP for six years and then our state director, who was Bob Burns at the time, said, I need some help over at DDS. And I went, What's a DDS? Because my focus had been strictly on BEP. And so he sent me over to the Disability Determination Services as the assistant director over there, and I oversaw sort of the administrative side of the DDS and did a number of activities over there. We moved into a much larger facility. We also at that time moved off a state legacy system onto *Levi. And for any of those who have been around a long time and have a program, you understand how far back that went. After about five years of DDS, moved over, back over here to the side of the shop and became the director of business services, which included all the administrative functions of the agency and sort of the financial piece of it. And so I was that until 2018 when I became the assistant state superintendent.   Carol: Very cool. I had no clue. Your days started with BEP. That is amazing. Good for you. You have a definitely a great broad history there. Paint a picture for our listeners about DORS and what agency you live under. What's your designated state agency and how many staff do you have in VR? And you already said you had DDS, but is that service under your purview as well?   Scott: Yeah, we're  housed within the Maryland State Department of Education. We're probably one of the first big divisions of the Maryland State Department of. We were created in 1929 and we at that time the division had two employees and a budget of $15,000. And the only reason I know any of this is because we've got the enacting legislation sitting out in the hall. We had two employees and $15,000 worth of state appropriation at the time. And of the two employees, one was the director of the agency and the other one was his secretary. He was also the counselor at the time as well. So obviously but we've been here ever since. The Division of Rehabilitation Services is comprised of two main programs that we operate are the VR program, obviously, as well as the program. In total, we've got 648 employees in total, of which 416 of them reside in the VR program and the remaining 232 reside in the DDS program. Within that VR program operates an Office of Field Services, which is very much operated the way the general agencies operate and then we have an Office of Blindness and Vision Services, which operate very much as a blind agency. And so we have a director of each one of those offices. They have their own budget and own staff and so forth. Then we also operate our Workforce and Technology center, which does a lot of our training and so forth, as well as a number of community based services out in the field and so forth. So yeah.   Carol: Yeah, you have a large operation. Holy cow. I didn't realize all of that. That's a bunch.   Carol: So let's talk about your unique position as far as the state. You border other states, as does every state. You know, people probably think duh, but there's something special about where your state is positioned in this country, because I always hear people say that you're the training ground for people that move to RSA. Can you talk about like what that geographical situation has played for you as far as your staff?   Scott: Yeah, and appreciate that. It does provide a unique situation for us. We border Delaware, Pennsylvania, Virginia and West Virginia as well as D.C. We do have some challenges, especially when we're competing with the federal government. And so because of the federal agencies that are housed here, it has become a real challenge because obviously the states don't pay as much as the federal government does, in particular around the Washington, D.C. area. The salaries are much higher than what we as an agency was able to offer. I mean, in some cases we'd have staff leave and they would nearly double their salaries as a result of that. In some cases, you just can't blame them. It has been a challenge having some of that federal government around, you know, as especially the presence of it, you know, large presence and so forth.   Carol: So we all know about this great resignation, you know, that's been talked about in the news. VRs experienced that itself. So how has that impacted what was happening in your agency? What were you facing for vacancy?   Scott: We were facing a high level of resignation. It was almost I hate coming in in the morning and turning on my computer and opening my email to see how many people resigned that particular day or week. And so we got hit pretty hard. We had about 40 counselors and supervisors, so it was about 30% of our workforce. We had vacancies in and that's on the VR side, on the side. You know, for those agencies that operate that, we had 59 vacancies and our examiners, which was about 45% of that. And, you know, the big culprit was they were going elsewhere, both private and public, to organizations that were paying them substantially more money than what we could afford, at least at the time. It hit us bad.   Carol: Well, I know your number's up there. I'd heard from some other directors talking about you like a 60% turnover in counselors and all these crazy numbers. It's hard to imagine how the work is able to get done. So obviously, you've got this geographic situation, you've got the great resignation going on, and you decided to embark on a journey where you wanted to get these wages increased. Can you tell us more about what went into that?   Scott: It was more than just me. I mean, it was a total agency effort. And I'm talking about from the top. In 2021, we got a new state superintendent who was from Texas. And so he was obviously very new, very young and high energy. And so being one of the large divisions and he wanted to have a one on one with me. And so we sat down and we talked. And what he wanted to know what DORS was to begin with and what VR was because he'd always been in education and so forth. And so we, you know, we talked and his first question, you know, real serious question was, what's your biggest challenge? I said, I can't hire, I can't retain because our salaries are so low. And I gave him an example. I said, we've had a recruitment out for three weeks now and we've got one person who is applying and they don't even meet the qualifications down in Montgomery County and Prince George's County, which are two largest counties in the state as far as population, but they're also the two counties that encircle Washington, D.C. And so the obviously the wages down there are extremely high because of the federal government. And so getting any staff at the wages that we were paying was next to impossible. We couldn't recruit, period. That was just the part of the problem. And so, you know, after I told him what the wages were, he even coming from the south out of Texas, even by his standards, the wages were low. So he put together, you know, he tasked the senior management, not only of the Maryland State Department of Education, but also of DORS to start working on a salary adjustment. Obviously, with something like this, it takes all hands on deck because it's just not one person who's doing all the work and guiding this. And so he tasked us and so my staff started doing feelers out to other states to find out what they're going for. We looked at the federal government and some of the positions that they were hiring for that had sort of equal entry level requirements. We looked at our counties. Some of our counties were paying way more than what we were. And so we took all that into consideration in looking at what is it that we wanted our salaries to look like. The other piece of this that was probably sort of the saving grace for us. Our counselors are in a classification series in this state that's only unique to DORS. It doesn't cross other state agencies or anything. And because of that, our Department of Budget and Management allowed us to do what they call an off cycle adjustment. Typically when they take a look at their salary adjustments and so forth and see whether they need to rescale them, they're looking across all the state agencies. They've got to balance who's got money and who doesn't, money when they start to raise salaries for, you know, let's say, an office secretary. Well, every agency has an office secretary. So they've got to have to balance this all out. When they say, okay, we're going to raise the office secretary's levels, well, they only had to look at us. They didn't have to compare us to anybody else, which made it a lot easier. And because a lot of our salaries, the way the state funds us, they put most of our state match dollars into our case services budgets. And so we've got just a small amount that actually goes towards salary. And so when we kind of pulled this together and say, okay, where can we go with this? We said, Hey, for a little bit of investment from the state side, we've got more than enough appropriation and federal funding over here. We can support this without any problem. So the meeting started in September. We kind of got going in earnest just after the Christmas holidays. We spent basically from October through December polling just gathering information. And then in from about January on, we started writing this up, getting everything put together. And then by late April we had the package ready together and we presented it to our Office of Budget and Management and Director of State personnel, and we suggested a threshold that we thought we could go to. They didn't quite agree with that. So there was some negotiating with the Department of Budget and Management, but we landed on a on a figure that was acceptable that they could live with that wasn't so far off that they were going to have problems with other state agencies as well, once they learned about what we had done. Our superintendent really wanted to push our salaries. He wanted it to be the highest in the nation.   Carol: Wow!   Scott: And he was pushing very hard to get us there. Didn't land there.   Carol: So how far did you get? How high did you get to go?   Scott: We got a substantial pay increase for them. We got, depending upon where they started, it was well over 20% pay increase for our counselors and examiners, which really stabilized it. I mean, it kind of gives you an idea, our salaries, starting salaries for what we call our VR counselor ones, which are individuals who come in with just a bachelor's degree, no experience. So we kind of have to build them up. We were starting at like 41,000 between 41 and 42. Our VR 2-counselors are individuals who have come in with a master's degree, no experience or some experience. And they were starting around 44,000 at the time and we were able to get them up. I mean, today our starting salary for counselor one is 57,000 and a couple of months with the new fiscal year will go to 58. Our twos were starting them at 60,000 and they'll go up to 62 in July. And then we have a technical specialist series and these are for individuals who again, have master's degrees, have been here a couple of years. They're starting in the upper 60s and low 70s now.   Carol: Yeah, good for you. That's pretty amazing. So were there other positions included? So it's not like your examiners or counselors. Were there any other types of positions in the agency include?   Scott: Well, we had to go back and do a readjustment because it affected both our counselors and our supervisors because it's a series of counselors, one, twos, technical specialists and supervisors. Then we have our regional supervisors and our regional directors. Well, because of it went up by grades and steps. Basically our regional supervisors were making the same thing as our office supervisors now. And so we had to raise them. When we raised the regional supervisors, they were making the same thing as the regional directors. So we had to raise the regional directors, but it had to happen over the course of time. The first push was the counselor series and so forth, and then we had to come back about a month later and do the rest of the others and so forth. So yeah, it's been sort of a work in progress and we still have some other classifications to take a look at as we kind of move down this path.   Carol: I wondered about that. If you had some work left to do.   Scott: Yeah, yeah, we do. We have to kind of go back. I mean, our support staff, we've got to go back and we've already started that work already to start looking at that group as well, because again, those classifications go across all state agencies, so we have no authority to raise those salaries. So we have to go back and do what we call a reclass them, which means we have to take a look at their classifications, see whether or not it still fits the job duties and so forth. So that's the only way I can raise that series, those individuals up. I just can't do what we did with the counselors. And in some cases, those salaries and all that are all controlled by the union.   Carol: Yes.   Scott: And so you've got to kind of have to work through all that stuff. So those positions take a little bit longer to kind of get through.   Carol: That makes good sense. So how long did that take you for this?   Scott: The first like I said, we started in 20. We started in September when I first met and we started in September. Late October.   Carol: Was that 2021?   Scott: Right.   Carol: Okay.   Scott: And then the pay raise went into effect on July 1st of 2022. So it took us nine months to kind of get it all put together and work through all the processes and doing the negotiation and so forth. So yeah.   Carol: And it's interesting because you are a union state as well. I came from a union state too, so there's extra things that go into play because I know some other folks have been successful across the country, but they didn't have that added complexity to it. So it was good to see you were able to do this in that environment.   Scott: Yeah, well, I mean, one of the things is even though we're part of a union, because the series is strictly DORS, we brought the union in once we had kind of got everything kind of worked through and said, okay, here's what we've done. They could have said, Yeah, no, we don't want you getting a pay raise. We worked at it that way just because and we had to cross even within our parent agency, if our parent agency, the Department of Education had a classification series and some of the stuff that they did, this would have never happened.   Carol: right.   Scott: Because of that uniqueness, we were able to get it done.   Carol: Yeah, the stars were aligned for you, for sure. So how have these increases impacted your staff recruitment and retention?   Scott: Oh, yeah. Big. I mean, it's like I mentioned earlier, we couldn't find staff or if we did, our supervisors and directors were making the decision of, I got to have a body, and so in some cases you're just getting a warm body. This has nothing to do with the person or anything like that. But they were probably individuals that this may not have been the best fit. But because you're sitting there as a supervisor and you've got 3 or 4 empty caseloads sitting on your desk, at least if I can get them in and get them do some work that's less work that I've got to do and so forth. So we were making some decisions on trying to sort of balance whether this was the right fit for people, but also looking at the number of people that are actually applying for the job was extremely low. I mean, we might come up with 4 or 5 individuals that make like really good candidates. And then when you made salary offer to them, they went, Uh, no thanks. In some cases we actually had made salary offers to individuals who had interned with us and wanted to work for us. And then we made the salary offer and they went, no thanks.   Carol: They're like, I can go work at Target instead.   Scott: You're exactly right. Because the salary, especially down in Prince George's and it is extremely high. Maryland has the highest median income in the country. You know, it's driven by about 3 to 4 counties in this state that drive that. And so that kind of shows you how tough it is in some other jurisdictions to find people and retain people is extremely difficult. Like I said, you know, one of those recruitments was just before we put out the salary change where we had gotten one individual. We got the permission to start publishing the new salary and we went from 1 to 40 in about two weeks.   Carol: Wow. Good for you.   Scott: For example, we had a recruitment out for this for about a month and maybe have gotten 25 to 30 applications. We re-advertised and got 170 in 3 weeks. So we went from 30 people to well over 200. So it obviously had a tremendous impact. In fact, I just had a regional director in talking with me earlier this week, talking about the quality of individuals that we're now seeing, because I haven't seen this high level of quality of people that we've gotten in years. So yeah, the impact has been immediate.   Carol: That's terrific. Have you had any staff want to come back? Maybe that left?   Scott: Well, actually, funny you asked that. We went back out to we had several staff. members who left 3 or 4 months earlier, and these were good staff. Sometimes you have staff leave and you go, thank God. Other times, you know, you see staff go out the door and you go, What a loss. And so we had about a half a dozen staff that had recently left that were sort of, oh, man, I hate to lose them. And so we reached back out to them and we were able to get four out of those six back. We almost got five back. But when they went to talk to their new employer, they went, Oh, we'll give you a pay raise. So she ended up getting a pay raise out of it because we told her what we were going to give her and they went higher. That's the benefit of a private sector situation versus, you know, state government type of situation. So we were able to get some seasoned staff back really quick. I mean, literally within weeks after the new pay plan went into effect. So yeah, it's stabilized. I'm seeing right now what I would consider sort of normal turnover. Now you're back down to 5 to 6% turnover rate versus 25 to 30% turnover rate. It's really made a made a difference in the world. It's stabilized the agency. We have a wait list. We had to basically shut it down because we had so many vacancies. I mean, we have had one and we were bringing people off the wait list. We just had to literally just shut it down. We couldn't handle. The individuals that were coming in the door that met the criteria for Category one. We were struggling with that along with our pre-employment. We just couldn't handle. We couldn't do it. So we shut it down.  Once we got stable. Our regional directors and director of Office Field services came to me and said, We can handle bringing people off the waitlist now. And so we've been able to start bringing people back off the waitlist now.   Carol: Good for you. That is terrific news is a big win all the way around. I just wondered if you had any advice for other directors and leaders across the country as there may be interested in doing something like this in their state. What advice would you give them?   Scott: The biggest advice is you've got to get buy in from your senior secretary, superintendent, whoever is your most senior, most person in the agency, because at the end of the day, they're the ones that are really going to have to go to bat and particularly when you start dealing with the counterparts over at your budget office who are always going, Oh, that's going to cost us a dollar. No, I don't think so. That's where you really need to have sort of that political clout to kind of push some of this stuff through, because it's not, it's not easy. And again depending upon the environment, to some degree, we benefited from the environment itself because obviously we weren't the only state agency losing people. And so the state, I think, recognized that they had to do something. Because even other state agencies around us couldn't hire people because of the state wage. And so I think we kind of hit it right at the right time, so we were able to do it. So I think the combination of two. One, we had a superintendent who had no problem to go banging on the secretary of budget management's door and say, I need this in order for this program to function and opening the door and then letting the rest. of the team go to work and prove the case.   Carol: I Like that you said that, prove the case. So if folks wanted to reach out to you. What would be the best way for them to contact you? Because a lot of times our listeners will say, I want to talk to Scott Dennis about what he just said.   Scott: Yeah, I mean, anybody can reach out to me. My email address is Scott Dot Dennis (D e n n i s) @maryland.gov.   Carol: Excellent. I really appreciate you joining me today and congratulations on the win. I just wish you continued success as you're working through your other positions. This is very cool. Thanks, thanks much.   Scott: Not a problem. Thank you, Carol.   {Music} Speaker1: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time, one minute at a time, brought to you by the VR TAC for Quality Management. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening!

Ever wanted to know what it takes to create a TV pilot? In this special episode, Anne is joined by Scott & Miranda Parkin to discuss Comet Casino. Comet Casino is a story centered around found family. It talks about those relationships & friendships that grow so near and dear that they feel like family. Scott & Miranda voice two of the characters, but were heavily involved in the creation of the show. From planning out the story to animating, Miranda was in charge and excited about this mid-century modern tale. After two year, the pilot episode is ready & shipped out to all the right people. So what's next for the duo? There may be more planning, creating, and meeting taking in their future…but you have to listen up to hear the whole story.    Transcript   It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.   Anne: Hey everyone, welcome to the VO BOSS podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and today I am so excited and pumped to have the Comet Casino team here with us, special guests Scott and Miranda Parkin. You guys, welcome to the show. Thank you so much. Yay!   Scott: Thank you so much for having me. You were an early supporter of this. (inaudible) merch on your show, you donated money, and now we're in the pitch phase. So we really owe a great debt of gratitude to the VO BOSS.   Miranda: Yeah, seriously.    Anne: Well, thank you. Thank you. I mean, it's not hard to support and love what you guys are doing. So for those BOSSes out there who may not be familiar with the famous Comet Casino team, I thought we would start with a little bit of an introduction of each of you so that the BOSSes can get to know you a little bit better. So let's start with Scott,‘cause he's older. (laughs) So Scott, I mean actor, amazing improv instructor, voice actor, I mean everything. Tell us how you got started in the industry and where it's going (laughs) and your life.    Miranda: And your social security number.    Anne: Yes.    Scott: No, that's horrible. That's horrible advice.  I'm from Sacramento, California, and I started in radio when I was in college. I interned at KCAP, the home of rock. When I was around 20, 18, 19 in that sort of range, I was able to weasel my way onto the air with a guy named Kevin Anderson. He got fired, but he made a tape of the time we were together, sent it to Tulsa, Oklahoma. They had us come out for an audition. They asked me if I'd ever been to Oklahoma. And at the time I said, uh, the furthest east I've been is the Nevada side of Heavenly Valley, dude. And that is literally how we all spoke in Northern California. You were more like this, like, are you gonna put change on your car before you go to Tahoe?    Went out there to Oklahoma and did that. And then I got fired again. Came back to Sacramento, got a gig in Dallas, was there for 11 years, got married, got — moved to Los Angeles in, I wanna say ‘98. Had a kid in 2000, got divorced in 2003, done voiceover and writing for television and acting, and I always say you gotta hit it from every angle possible, so I'll do most of the stuff that they'll pay creative wise. So Miranda's been raised on TV sets and in voiceover lobbies and all that. And she started in the business when she was about five.    Miranda: Pretty crazy.    Anne: So, yeah. So Miranda, let's talk about that because you did grow up in the business. Yeah. I'm so excited again to actually see you and talk with you. And so tell us how you kind of got started, and was this something that, because you were around it for all the time when you were small, is it something that you loved right away, or did you kind of grow into it?    Miranda: Well, I mean, I feel like I loved it first because I was like, oh, I just really love reading. Like I love reading out loud. Like that very much fun.    Scott: Nerd!   Miranda: Shut up.    Anne: That was me too. That was me too.    Scott: Yeah.    Miranda: I liked reading out loud. So when they were like, “hey, do you wanna read this thing out loud,” a little five year old? And I was like, yeah, of course I wanna read that thing out loud. So I did. And then I was like, oh, oh, they like it when I do that. That's cool. I like that. You know, I was five, so I didn't really know, but it just made me feel happy, you know? Like I've always loved reading out loud. And then I got paid to talk about SeaWorld, and I'm like, I love animals and I love talking about whales, like of course I, I'm gonna do that.    Anne: Was this when you were five or a little bit later on?    Miranda: A little bit later on because I started when I was five, and then it was kind of went until eight or nine I think. I think nine was when I, I got the --    Scott: When the hammer got dropped.    Miranda: Yeah. Yeah. I got the job of, uh, Lucy in a direct to DVD Peanuts movie. And my mom was like, no, you can't do that. So I was like, oh, alright. I really like reading out loud. I really like the Peanuts.    Scott: But her dad was a voiceover actor, and anything that had something to do with me was --   Anne: Ah.   Scott: Yeah.   Anne: Okay. So there's the six degrees here I think because you said Lucy, right? You read for the —    Miranda: Right.   Anne: Okay. So my maiden name is Lucy. Okay?   Scott: Excellent. Is that true?    Anne: Yes, it's very true. It's very, because people called me Miss Lucy when I was a teacher, and then they would sing, Miss Lucy had a steamboat. The steamboat had a bell. Exactly.    Scott: I forgot you were a teacher. My mom was a teacher for 35 years. I have I have so many teachers throughout our family.    Anne: Well, so that's number one. And number two is that when I was young, when I was about six, when I was in kindergarten, I love to read out loud as well. And here's where my claim to fame, my creative claim to fame is that I wrote books. I wrote books about Nibbles the Rabbit. And as a kindergartner, I read them to the first graders. So that's my claim to fame. I mean, I --   Miranda: Kind of a power move.    Anne: I mean, so Miranda, if I could only be half as good of, and I illustrated and wrote, and you know what I mean? Which is, that's incredible.    Miranda: That's, that's amazing.    Anne: You do everything. And so I just feel like the apple doesn't far fall from the tree there, I think; the writer, artist, voice actor, actor.   Scott: I can't draw a stick figure without uh, without help. So.   Miranda: That's true. He can draw a palm tree and a lightning bolt.    Anne: There you go. Very good.    Scott: And I can draw an oak tree too though.    Miranda: And an oak tree. Oak tree. Sorry, forgot about that. One of the three.    Scott: Yeah.   Anne: I got good at drawing a rabbit as a kindergarten. But other than that --    Miranda: Nibbles the rabbit.    Anne: — that's kind of where it stopped. Although I always was in awe of people who could draw. And so I want to actually talk about Comet Casino because that's really why I wanted to bring you here so that we can talk about the whole process. Because BOSSes out there, if you're listening, the whole concept of Comet Casino is BOSS from start to as it evolves. Because you have encompassed all areas of the creative arts, all areas of funding, of marketing, of starting something and seeing it grow and seeing it evolve. So I love the evolution of Comet Casino. So before we do that, let me show the BOSSes a little preview of what we have here. So let's do this first.    Scott: Can we set it up real quick?    Anne: Yeah. Let, we're gonna set it up right now.    Scott: This is not a trailer. There's no voiceover or anything like that. This is the first 90 seconds of the pilot, and the shuttle attendant is the lovely great Delisle Griffin. And we love it. And so you get an idea of where our story takes place, who are the principals, and what's going on in the first 90 seconds. The whole thing, the whole pilot presentation is just over 10 minutes. There you go.    Miranda: Yeah, there we go.    Anne: All right. We're gonna give you guys the first 90 seconds. All right. Here we go.    >> Attention passengers. We will be landing shortly on Luparif Omari, please return to your seats. If you've morphed during the flight, please regenerate and buckle up. Okay? And remember, as long as you look like you're gambling, they gotta keep bringing you drinks. Good luck.    >> Luparif Omari. Everybody knows it as the loop. Number one adult playground in the galaxy and the armpit of the fucking universe. Everyone is thrilled when they get here and broken, disillusioned when they leave. That's just after a weekend. I spent the first 18 years of my life here. On the loop, after high school, you pretty much have three choices: bartending school, dealer school or alcoholic gambler. I wanted something more. So I went to law school on the nearest planet. After graduation I took a really good job as a defense attorney. It's difficult and none of it comes easy, but okay, it's somewhere else, and that's all that matters.    So what am I doing back here? My dad, owner of the formerly luxurious Comet Casino passed away. How? Uh, he just stopped breathing while a guy was choking him to death, which on the loop is considered natural causes. The loop is 100 miles of casinos, clubs, and general debauchery crammed into a thin band of oxygen. Everything else is toxic. My dad used to drop off associates in the desert when it was time for them to die of natural causes.    >> Hurry. Hurry, everyone.    Anne: Haha, awesome. I love it. And can I tell you that honestly, when I first heard it, I love the beginning, right, with the introduction. But Miranda, when you start telling the story, I teach like storytelling to students for years. And you have such a beautiful, wonderful presentation of storytelling in that, like it is so damn impressive.    Miranda: Hey, I used to love reading stories out loud. Now I do it all the time.    Anne: If Scott knows me, I don't say that lightly. I love, love the performance.    Scott: That's not — this whole thing, this has been two years in the making, and we directed all these legends who are friends of ours and have always supported Miranda. And if Miranda wasn't able to hold their own with these legends, it doesn't work. All of what we've done, it just doesn't work. So.   Miranda: That was one thing that I got scared about. Like I know literally like after we like got all these people to do it, and they were like, all right, now it's time to record your part. And I'm like, oh, I have to actually, I have to go up against these — oh my God. Not, not go up against, but like work with, like be in the same cartoon as, and I'm like, oh my God, that's like a dream come true regardless of where this thing goes.    Scott: Yes. And frightening as hell. And same for me. ‘Cause Miranda actually does video games and animation. I don't do so much of either of those. So after asking these people and then having to, you know, what was really cool was that we recorded our parts at SoundBox LA with Tim Friedlander. So first Miranda and Tim directed me, and then we switched, and Tim and I directed Miranda. So that was really, it was really cool. And he's been so supportive and known Miranda for a very long time. So it was, it was just really cool to do our parts at Tim's with Tim directing.    Miranda: Yeah. ‘Cause he's such a good friend and such a great dude. And he supported it all the way through. It just seemed like a natural fit.    Anne: So let's talk about, how did it all start?    Miranda: Ooh, ooh, ooh. I've got this one.    Anne: Okay.    Scott: Keep it tight and bright.    Miranda: So essentially it started as an FBI agent gets teleported into space and works off her debt at a space casino. So that was like our initial idea. And I wanted to do something    Scott: That was all Miranda's --   Miranda: Yeah. And then I was like, okay, well the FBI thing is kind of silly, stupid. Let's just go with a mother-daughter story about a girl that actually lives in the casino and went to the casino and like lived at the casino, and her mom was the boss and she had to come back. And then we were just like, okay, let's cut the mom. Because I don't know how to tell a mother daughter story. I know how to tell a father-daughter story. So let's make a father-daughter story about a dysfunctional --   Scott: Well Miranda, you have to be honest, Ed Jager, our head writer and 23 year veteran television writer came in and said, I'm killing the mom. There's no story there. It's a father-daughter story. It's all about the daughter. Going away. Wanting to get the hell outta home, and then having to come back and then finding out that, ah, you know what? I hate this place, but I work here. It works. I have a connection here, and I'm really good at all the jobs I'm doing. It's the Joan Didian. You can't go home but you, maybe you can kind of thing.  Does that make sense?    Miranda: See the thing is like at the beginning of it, it morphed and switched. But I always wanted to make it a space casino. Always, always, always.    Anne: But then, let me backtrack here. So you're telling me the beginnings of the story, but what's the beginnings of the idea, Miranda? Was it something that you said, I wanna create? So not many people in this industry, and I know BOSSes out there, this is the whole enchilada, this is the writing, the artistry, the production, the casting. So did you just one day say, I wanna make a show like (laughs)?    Scott: We pitch ideas back and forth and have written a bunch of stuff, but Miranda always said that whenever they go animated shows, they have an episode at a casino. But I forget how you said it, M, I'm sorry.    Miranda: So like in a lot of sci-fi media, there's always like a one-off episode with a casino. Like in Cowboy Bebop, there's a one-off episode with a space casino. In Star Wars, they go to a space casino in one of the newest Star Wars movies. In like Rick and Morty, they go to a Dave and Busters type thing called Blips and Shits. And I'm just like, why don't you stay there? There's so much potential. You have beings from all over the galaxy. You know, you have people that go to Vegas for conventions. You've got people that go to Vegas in sororities. You have gangsters and mobsters and bachelor parties    Anne: I love it.   Scott: Corporate convention. Always bringing different people. And if you put it out in space, 200 years in the future, the hell knows what --   Anne: Right. So many stories. I mean, I think so many stories can evolve from that. So yeah, there's longevity there. Yeah.    Scott: The other thing we really liked was the found family because Miranda's been, was at my house from age 16 on solo and moved out two years ago. So big on found family. At my house growing up there was always an extra person. Somebody that just got divorced or some teenager had been kicked out of their house. So we're big on found family. A found family is such a lovely story. You can take in so many different directions, and in Miranda's situation, it's right here, found family.   Miranda: But also it's relatable to everyone. Whether you have a good relationship with your parents or not, you always have friends. You know, friends are the family that you choose. I know it's cheesy, but everyone can relate to it. Everyone has a friend that you feel like you're a sibling.    Anne: So then you had this idea that you wanted to do this. The two of you were bouncing ideas and then you said, yes, this sounds amazing. Let's get a writer. Like what happened after that? Just get a writer involved.    Scott: Like I said, we've had multiple ideas, and I think they're very solid ideas, but Miranda is a voracious performer and artist. They like to keep going and going and going. So if we didn't get something with legs on it early, it got set aside and fan art and something else, or voiceover or her life just got in. But this was much more substantial. And it has something that Miranda really likes is retro futurism and 50's --    Miranda: Like mid-century modern atomic age type stuff, Jetsons style.    Anne: Yeah, absolutely.    Scott: They really enjoyed drawing. So it was very inspirational. And then I showed it to my buddy Ed. We had made a little video presentation and it's 1000 degrees different than that, than the thing that we first made. But he goes, this is great. We showed it to Swampy Marsh, the creator of Phineas and Ferb, who's sort of Miranda's mentor and my good friend. And then we all got together with a couple of the writers from Gary Unmarried, that show my buddy Ed wrote about my life that was on CBS, and other writers that I'd worked with on their pilots. And we all got a room and sort of hammered out a thing.    And then the found family thing, or how each of the casino employees used to work at the casino as a crooner or a fighter or something like that. And now the old man me has hired him to work on the, on the thing because they're no longer viable as performers. So we had that, and then Ed just took it off and built this great daughter goes away and comes back to save the found family sort of thing.    Miranda: And it was so well done and well-written. And we pitched on jokes, and I would be like, oh, this character probably wouldn't say that, or this and that. But most of it was Ed really. He just brought this huge heart to it.    Scott: Ed started on Roseanne and worked on Darma and Greg and so many great shows. And I was a joke guy, so you know, we were able to make the jokes crackle, and then you just crank it, crank it down, crank it down until it's tight. And then we hired Swampy Marsh and Bernie Patterson at Surfer Jack to do the staging animatics. So each time they go through, it's single line, really rudimentary, but it gives you a good idea of where everyone's going and what it will look like. I think they did four passes there. They hired Miranda to work on small projects. So Miranda got to work on her own pilot there.    And then I think after we had our thank you party last summer at Tim's, Miranda said, I want it all to be -- I have so many ideas. I want more characters, I want some different backgrounds. This would be funnier if a chop from above. And so Miranda said, I wanna do all of this. So she redid everything. And so every frame you see in the thing is her character's shirt background, a couple backgrounds. We hired her roommate Lauren to do, really wonderful stuff. But almost all of it is Miranda's vision. So there you go. And then laid in all the sound. Tim West at Rebel Alliances donated hours and hours and hours of time. So the sound design is really good. Adam Gutman, Miranda, you can talk about.    Miranda: Yeah. He's like a, he's a Disney composer. He does like all the music for these Star Wars land rides, and Amphibia, and he's worked on Greatest Showman and all these things. And I did a lot of work with him during the lockdown, and he had this like musical project, and I was able to do some animatics for him. And then after that, you know, we kept in contact and then he was like, if you don't let me do the music for Comet Casino, I will be very sad if you don't let me just do it. You know. And I was like --   Scott: Of course, of course.   Miranda: He had all these like great kind of almost hotel lobby tracks from like a Star Wars thing that he worked on. And he's just like, I can tweak this and do this. I'm like, that is so cool. It was crazy.    Anne: So a few things that I wanna point out to the BOSSes out there, because again, I think a lot of people that listen to the VO BOSS podcast they're thinking very much in just voiceover. And again, the scope of this project is so amazing, and I'm hearing a couple of things that just keep coming back to me. Number one is having a great network, right? And having a wonderful team to help put this together. And so I think that networking is such an important thing to have a successful --   Scott: Without, without it, this wouldn't exist.    Anne: Yeah.    Scott: I called in and asked every favor I had to get us at this point.    Anne: Yeah, absolutely.    Scott: Listen, I don't constantly work for free, but I work with friends and things I like mm-hmm and everyone liked all these people that are in this, Maurice Lamar, Billy West, Tara Strong, Luray, Newman, Mindy Sterling — all of them have known Miranda since about three years old because I was asked to be divorced when Miranda was three. So I had her with me, and they all sort of watched her grow up and watched her. So when I said, hey you guys, this is what we're doing, would you be willing? And they all said the same, some version of yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Tara Strong's like, just tell me where to talk. They didn't owe me anything, but I, we asked favors.    Miranda: And one thing that I was so happy about is they've always been, ‘cause we're, you know, a lot of us are at the same agency. So like from being a kid, like not not a kid, but like, you know, in my 20s, early, early teenage years, they were always like, if you make something, if you make something, you know, put me in it. Please. So, you know, and then we finally followed through with an idea, and now it was like, I can do that. I can ask these people and they'll say yes. And that's just a such a great feeling to have, to have such a great support network of all these incredible talented people. I'm really honored.    Scott: And Miranda designed each of the characters for each of those actors. Aunt Maisie was designed for Tara Strong. Gary Anthony Williams is Hendrix. So that's kind of a cool thing too. But you definitely have to be willing to work with -- I mean I've worked on so many pilots that got shot and didn't get to air. I don't get any money from that. I just get the experience providing and supporting. So when I have something, I call those guys and they're like, yeah, let's get together and write this.    Anne: So then yet another thing that I wanna talk about that I think is so important in the development of this is you're still pursuing this, you're still getting funding for this. And so --   Scott: We've just started this phase.    Anne: Right.   Scott: We, it's taken two years to get up to that.   Anne: Yeah. And I think that there's something to be said for the level of commitment obviously, that you have to have for this. I mean in my brain, there's no way that it can't not be successful for you guys. I mean that's the way I feel. I don't know.    Miranda: I honestly think it's successful already. I am just, I am happy to be involved with these incredible people. I'm happy to have this part of my portfolio, and I'm ready to get this, this art in front of people who work in amazing studios. Like all these studio people are going to be seeing my art. So that was like the goal from early on was to get my art in front of studios, and whether it gets made or not, it's just a step in the right direction regardless.    Anne: I love that.    Scott: The beginning premise was to get experience at storyboarding character design and backgrounds. So when we hired Surfer Jack, the idea was that Miranda would sit on Bernie's shoulder and watch him staging storyboard. But then Swampy screwed that up by hiring Miranda before they even started on the pilot to be head of small projects there. So the idea was to get all of her stuff in front of as many people as possible. And because of Ed -- his theatrical representation is APA — they saw that 90-second trailer and called us in for a strategy meeting. So now we're actually represented by APA.    Anne: Love it. That's huge.   Scott: They're not only showbiz adjacent, but they represent people like 50 Cent, Mark Ruffalo, you know, that kinda people. So now, next week the pilot goes out to every animation studio and every streaming service, full support of the head of animation at APA. And they'll bug them to watch it and then hopefully take a meeting. So we already won because all of that stuff is in front of them. And Miranda -- by the way, she's like, in my early twenties — these are your early 20's; you're 28 (?) until next week, you know.   Anne: That's phenomenal. Miranda, I love that you said that it's already a success because it truly is in my eyes, and that's why I feel like it can't be anything but a success already. I've seen it evolve, I've seen it progress, and to me I'm in awe. I think it's amazing. I love the evolution, I love the whole creative process. And I think that it would help BOSSes to maybe wrap their heads around the whole production process of a creative project because I think it will help us to become better actors, become better business people, understanding the networking that you guys are going through and the process to get this produced and and get this out and see if — it's like a big huge audition. Right?    Scott: It is. The other thing is, I told you I don't book animation. So what we did was build a pilot and write ourselves into the pilot. So if I book animation, it'd likely be something that we wrote then Miranda drew. So I think that's a really important thing for anybody getting into it. Don't wait to be asked to the dance. Get out there and start dancing.    Miranda: I also think like the thing about networking that you said like Swampy, a friend of ours, you never know who you are going to meet or who's gonna hire you or who's gonna be your friend and let you work on their project or whatever. ‘Cause like, you know, I hired my roommate to work on some of the backgrounds for Comet. And the networking is so important in this industry, especially with animation, the way that it is right now. ‘Cause animation is very weird and not an incredible industry to get into right now. ‘Cause everything is very up in the air.    Scott: What do you mean, not a great industry? Do you mean it's uncertain?    Miranda: Yeah, it's very uncertain and there's lots of things.    Scott: Voiceover and acting --   Miranda: No, no, but like animation in particular, a lot of animated projects are getting canned. Like they took so much off of HBO Max and Netflix. Like all these animated projects on Netflix.   Scott: That happens in every facet of the entertainment --   Miranda: Right. That's true.   Anne: Ebb and flow.    Scott: It's building your house on mud and hoping for the best.    Miranda: Yeah.    Anne: Yeah.    Miranda: But you know, like you just never know who is gonna hire you. You never know who's gonna be part of your story next. So.   Scott: It's also a good reason to be nice to everybody.    Miranda: Exactly. It costs some money.    Scott: ‘Cause you never know. And that's why I always say, hey people, I know we have, we're represented by an agency, but please if I sent you the pilot and said, hey, send it to creators that you know, it's always great when something comes to the same point from different connections.    Anne: Sure. Absolutely.    Scott: Oh, this is the pilot. Oh this is the guy that Apple, the Apple guy sent me this. So I believe you gotta get as many lines in the water as you can.    Anne: Absolutely. And that networking completely helps that. And I think that it's just something that's so important for us to know as we progress in this industry because this industry's uncertain, voice acting. Oh, oh my gosh. You know?   Scott: Also the other thing is Miranda's not stopping. She's doing Comet art for the pitch deck. Should we get the meeting, I feel confident people are gonna say, hey come in. We like it. We'd like to chat, doing that. But she's also prepping a bunch of stuff to submit for Smiling Friends. She just had a meeting with the storyboard director from Mitchells and the Machines. So you know, you can't just go, well, we've got our pilot. Let's just sit back and let the money roll in.   Miranda: Not over until it's over.    Anne: That's not over.    Miranda: It doesn't start till it starts.    Scott: Ah, I like that one.    Anne: Yeah. Now lemme ask you, Comet Casino, what's next? What's the next step?    Scott: Next week. Well, Miranda's doing art for the pitch deck. Hopefully it goes out to all the stupid buddies, the the titmouses, the --   Miranda: Bento boxes, the tornates, the 20th Century Fox.    Scott: It's gonna go out to every relevant animation company and every streamer, Amazon, Apple, all of those. And then we clear our schedule because we'll be just meeting so many people and having a bidding war on the Comet scene.    Anne: There you go.    Miranda: One would hope. One would hope.    Scott: We still, did you get one of these, Anne?    Anne: I did not get a bag.    Scott: We wanna send you a bag as a gift from the Comet Casino.    Anne: Oh, I love it.    Scott: And we'll put one of the lucky chips in there too.    Anne: Oh, I love that.    Scott: I always keep 'em in my pocket when I audition and I booked three commercials with one ofthese in my pocket.    Anne: Well, thank you. So let me ask you guys, before we go, first of all, how can somebody buy Comic Casino merch? Where do they go?    Miranda: They go to the Comet Casino gift shop, and it's the first thing that comes up on Google. I'll also send you the link so you can put it in the description of whatever podcast.    Anne: The Comet Casino gift shop. And guys, I have a few things. I have a few things from the Comet Casino, but I do not have a bag, so I would love that.    Scott: We'll send you the retro airline bag.    Anne: Thank you.    Scott: Cool thing where you put the cardboard on the bottom, and they put hard glasses in the bottom.    Anne: I love it.    Scott: And then we still have a bunch of shirts. We don't have a lot of stuff. We got hit pretty hard. Oh, we do have some of these handmade pendants that are really, really cool. We only have a -- I think there's only five of those left. They're really, really, really stunning.    Anne: That's very cool.    Scott: Our friend Lori Magna is this artisan in Boston, and she made, she does all the little -- I mean --   Anne: Oh, I love it.    Miranda: Aren't they so cool?   Anne: I love it. So Comet Casino gift shop.    Miranda: Yes, indeed.    Anne: And how can someone follow you, Miranda?    Miranda: Oh, well my Instagram is Parkinart, Parkinart. No spaces, no caps, no nothing. No, no underscores or dots or dits or numbers.    Anne: Perfect.    Scott: You can see me on a Tide commercial    Anne: Ah yes.    Miranda: And his Instagram. His Instagram --   Scott: Hang on, I forgot to say we just got these, the premade --   Miranda: The booklets.   Scott: Big comic books with all the concept art. They're 22 pages, and we just got these. There was a misprint. We got to help with the pitch and they did a misprint --   Anne: Will you be signing?    Scott: We're signing. Miranda will sign. I'll sign it. It doesn't really matter if I sign it, but Miranda's gonna sign it, and then if you get other cast members to sign it, you got something there.    Anne: Very nice.    Scott: That'll be up on here very quickly as well.    Anne: Very nice.    Scott: Anne, thank you so much. So sweet of you to have us on.    Anne: Thank you, guys. It was amazing. So much fun. And I'm looking forward to interviewing you again after it gets picked up and you guys --   Scott: Absolutely. And remember, we're voice first, and we have a very long memory and we remember everybody that was so supportive and helpful. And believe me, we'll be working hard. We don't know who's gonna buy it or what the situation will be. They may buy it outright, tell us to go away, you know what I mean? So we have no idea what that looks like. But if we have any say in it, we're gonna bring people to audition. Everybody gets up to bat, we're gonna write your names as a character, spread the wealth.    Anne: Love it. And your cat wants to say hello. I love it. You know, I have three cats, so I'm all about that. Well fantastic, guys. Thank you so much again. It was amazing. So much fun. Love, love, love what you're doing.    Miranda: Thank you so much for having us on.    Anne: Absolutely.    Scott: You've been so supportive, Anne. You jumped on the bandwagon and gave away merch very early on. This was an expensive proposal, right? Hiring an animation company to do four passes, and then I was sending random money to not take any other work while they worked on this thing. So it's really, really helpful to have such support. The main thing is, it's just really fun to see the cool logo and all the great art on it. It's very nice.    Anne: Absolutely. All right, well BOSSes, here's your chance to use your voice to make an immediate difference in our world and give back to the communities that give to you. Besides giving to Comet Casino, you can go to 100Voiceswhocare.org to find out more and commit. And also big shout out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can network communicate like BOSS. Find out more at ipdtl.com. You guys, have an amazing week and we will see you next week. Bye!   Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

This episode of the Live Better Sell Better Podcast throws back to our conversation with Scott Ingram, Founder of Sales Success Media and Account Director at Relationship One. Surrounding yourself with top doers and contributors is only a small part of becoming one yourself.Scott talks about how to become someone that is worth keeping the company of. He shares a few tips on associating yourself with individuals that are on your ideal level, whether that be in growth, self-improvement, leadership, and more.  HIGHLIGHT QUOTESDeveloping a mindset of where you want to be - Scott: "You don't get any of those opportunities unless you perform in the role that you're in. So you have to find that balance of 'How do I nail what I'm doing while I'm also learning about what's going to help me be successful at the next step.' Either way, you've just got to keep learning."Ask the right question - Scott: Start with something where you know they're informed and have an idea. Start with that question and the key here is to report back. Share what you're finding and then just continue to build on that. You can find out more about Scott in the links below:LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottingram/Website: https://www.salessuccesseverything.com/Live Better. Sell Better. is sponsored by our proud partner:Vidyard | vidyard.com

In this extended episode, Anne chats with Landon Beach, the author of Narrator, and Scott Brick, the narrator of the novel, to find out what makes a great narrator-author relationship. If you're a writer, you know your characters, you understand their motivations and their goals. Creating a standout audiobook means trusting an actor to take the story to new heights. That's why we love audiobook narrators! They bring our characters to life with their voices, and they do it so well that we feel like we're coming along for the ride. Landon spent months learning everything he could about Sean Frost, the protagonist in "Narrator" He researched Sean's hobbies, his interests, his personality—even his favorite color! Many details of Sean that didn't make it into the novel became essential for developing his character in Scott's voice. We discuss how Landon's deep research into the character of Sean Frost led him to fully embody the role, and how Scott's experience as a voice actor informed his understanding of the subtleties that make this story great. We also talk about how you might be able to use your skills, interests, and background to add new textures & experience to your work as a voice actor. Transcript >> It's time to take your business to the next level, the BOSS level! These are the premiere Business Owner Strategies and Successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a BOSS, a VO BOSS! Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza. Anne: Hey everyone. Welcome to the VO BOSS Podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza. And today I am so excited to have two very special guests on the show. Welcome Landon Beach, author of the psychological thriller Narrator, which is available now wherever fine books are sold. Landon previously served as a naval officer and was an educator for 15 years before becoming a full-time writer with six titles, the latest being Narrator. Welcome Landon. Landon: Hey, Anne, thanks for having me on. Anne: We also have the actual narrator of the book Narrator and award-winning narrator who has more than 800 books to his name -- maybe there's more by now -- 600 Earphone Awards, a Voice Arts Legacy Award, a Grammy nomination. Welcome Scott Brick to the show. Scott: Hey, hey. It's so good to see you all. Anne: I know! You guys, thank you so much for joining me. I'm so excited to talk to you today about this book, which is amazing, BOSSes. So if you don't mind, I'd like to start with just a little bit of a preview, if you don't mind. I'm gonna play this and hopefully you guys will be able to hear it. Here we go. >> Why do authors have to kill off characters we love? I, Sean Frost, sit in my darkened recording booth and stare at the final paragraph of the novel I am narrating. Almost there. Finish it. Finish it right, finish it with a flourish. But I can't, not right now for I am crying. The main character, Nehemiah Stone, died two pages ago in a self-sacrifice that I had not seen coming. The book, The Paris Sanction, is author M. Scott Sal's fourth Nehemiah Stone thriller, which I have waited patiently for two years for the chance to narrate. Five years ago, Simon and Schuster thought I was the perfect narrator for the job when they contacted my agent, David Killian, whom I affectionately refer to as Killy. Anne: . I would love to play all of that, but I'm gonna leave the BOSSes in suspense . Wow. So you guys, for me, I mean, having read the book and listened to the audio book as well, it's amazing. And so I'd love to talk to you about the process. So let's start with you, Landon, after being an educator -- thank you very much for your service, thank you -- what was your thought process in becoming a writer? Landon: Well, I've always written ever since I was young, and I had a wonderful English teacher in high school who really encouraged me. And then it kind of went away for a while. As you said, I went off and served, but I don't think I ever lost the passion for reading or the itch. And so fast forward many years later, and Scott and I started working together and developed a friendship. And I had an idea that I had been tossing around in my mind for 20 years because I've always loved the entertainment industry. I love to watch movies and study film. And finally it came to me one day after Scott and I had finished I think three books together. I thought, I think I have a way to tell an entertainment comeback story that has never been done before with an audiobook narrator as the main character set within the framework of a psychological thriller. So that's where the idea came together. It wasn't until I started working with Scott and got to know a little bit about the audiobook world before I saw the opportunity that was in front of me. And then I shoved all other books to the side and just immersed myself in that world. And here we are today, . Anne: So I guess I should ask you then, how did you find Scott? So then Scott kind of contributed to the idea of the book for Narrator after you'd worked with him? Landon: He did not contribute to the idea at all. I shocked the heck out of him when I presented it to him. Anne: Oh, awesome! Landon: Yes. Now after that, yes, he was very helpful and had so much, you know, generous feedback. And the book, whatever success it may have, is in large part, of course, not only to his narration, but just his extreme kindness and professionalism, talking about the industry and seeing what worked and what wouldn't work in the book. And if we were gonna break some rules, to knowingly break them, so that it would be authentic and that the research would be impeccable. So that not only the common fan for 99% of them would not know where we're bending the rules or not. But it was important to us for maybe the 1%, the people that are in the industry that Scott and I both love, would appreciate the nods and winks and the Easter eggs. Anne: Oh, yeah. Landon: And just the fun of it that it hadn't been done before. So in terms of how I found Scott, I had placed in a few writing competitions for my first two novels, and I had written a third novel, and I was discussing with my wife how we might expand the business. And audiobooks were exploding back then and continue to explode now. But this is around 2019. And to make a long story short, I had been a fan of Scott's for years. Didn't know him at all. But I thought, well, if there's one person that I would love to narrate all of my books from now until eternity, it would be Scott. And I saw that he was an entrepreneur, and his ahead of the game, was already working with some indie authors at that point. And so I contacted his amazing production manager, Gina Smith, and reached out and asked if, you know, he'd be interested. And through a process that we went through, we ended up doing a three-book deal. And then it led to later books. So that's sort of how we got together on this. Anne: Well, I love the fact that you've continued to have Scott in your books. And so Scott, I imagine you had some collaboration after the surprise of finding out that he wrote a book about an audio book narrator. Talk about the process of collaboration with Landon. Scott: I will. I'll be happy to. But Landon, I just want you to know, thank you for the kind words, but you've only got 45, 50 minutes. I'll give you 50 more minutes to say good things about me. . It's very kind. Thank you. This was a marvelous surprise. Landon I got to know one another through letters, through emails, cards that we would exchange, and found out that we're both huge fans of Old Hollywood. I probably can't tell that I love old Hollywood, 'cause the books behind me. And at one point, I guess when he had this idea, he asked if he could maybe get some feedback. You know, essentially it was like an interview. He wanted to interview me about how audiobooks are made. And I remember him saying that he had this idea and very broad terms. Now, I wasn't really privy to what was going on in the story. I just told him about the process. And about six months later, he goes, oh, by the way, here you go. And I went, holy shit. Okay. Well, I guess he did. People say they're gonna do things all the time; it doesn't always happen. And then he asked me to read it ahead of time and just give him feedback. I mean, he was talking about like the rules that we break. You know, there's one thing about the audio book industry. It's very gender and ethnicity centric, right? If a black man writes a book, they're gonna hire a black man to narrate it. Same thing. People ask me why I work so much. I'm like, well, there's a lot of old white guys writing books. Right? And in the book at the very beginning is the Audie Awards. And Billy D. Williams has his memoir come out, and there's a woman who is nominated for best narrator of the year for having done that book. And I was like, hey, Landon, I'm sorry to tell you. But you know, they would hire a guy to do that. And , I just love the fact that the way that he addressed it was just talking about the elephant in the room. He said, you know, at one point Billy D. Williams says, you tell me that woman can't read my book? Are you kidding me? You know, and again, it just, address the issue and then move on. The collaboration, for lack of a better word, I was just primarily giving feedback like that as well. It's just that first interview. I remember days before the book was coming out, he emailed real quick and said, is it appropriate to say, I hit the record button? Is there an actual button that you hit in the studio? And I said, Well, no, not really. I mean, I'm not using hardware, I'm using software. So I have a shortcut. I hit the number 3 button on my keyboard. And he goes, But do you use that terminology? "I hit the record button." I said, No, I typically say I hit record. Okay, great. And that's what came about. And you know, they're small things, but Dan Musselman, who's one of my favorite people of all time, he gave me my career, basically. And he always said, you know, most books are a 100,000 words long. You could get 99,999 of them right. But if you pronounce one of them wrong, it will ruin the experience for the listener. And this is a similar thing, if you get the terminology wrong, it would take some of us right out of the experience. Anne: Absolutely. Well, absolutely. And I was just mentioning before when I was speaking in to Landon, how at home I felt with everything, everything was like, it was familiar to me. It was at home. Like, you grabbed a cup of tea for your throat, and you're at the award ceremony, and all of it just was so comfortable and just so wonderful and amazing. And I can't say enough good words about it, but I imagine that this was a little more collaborative than most audio books. Like Scott, talk a little bit about the process when you're hired to narrate an audio book, and how much interaction are you having with the author, or what does that look like? Scott: You know, it all depends on whether you're working directly with the author or through a publisher. Um, publishers really like to curate the relationship, for lack of a better word. They like to limit the amount that you really get to interact with the author. Then again, I have authors I've worked with for 20 years, and it's like, there's no way we're not gonna talk about it. You know, I'm like, okay, he's coming over to my house for a dinner. Am I not supposed to talk to him about his book? And if it's a Dune book, I've done all of those, I think 25 of them now. I call the author , and we go over all the pronunciations for the made up names, phrases, and whatnot. That's typically what will happen. I'll reach out to, you know, Nelson Demille. He puts in real people's names in the books that he writes. Because they've made charitable donations. Well, I wanna make sure that I'm, is it Carns or is it Kerns? They deserve to have their name said right. That's typically the way it works with an author. But when you work directly with an author like I've been blessed to do with Landon, he'll tell me, this thriller was inspired by this movie. He even sent me a copy of it on DVD. I'm blanking on it now. The Gene Hackman film. Why am I blanking? Landon: Night Moves. Scott: That's it. Exactly. So I watched that the night before, and it just helps get you into the mood. If anything else, the relationship that I've had, this working relationship with Landon, which is thankfully for me, become a true friendship, has informed my work on his books. It's nice to know when he sends me an email saying, you know, I got this character. I was inspired by this film, by this actress, by this actor -- it's really nice to know that kind of thing. Nobody listening will realize, oh yeah, that was Gene Hackman who inspired that character. Anne: Sure, sure. Scott: And yet, I know, and it makes it different for me and hopefully more layered and textured for the listener. Anne: So I guess my question would be is when you take on a character, right, you fully envelop that character. How do you prepare for that? And also, I'd like like to ask Landon, was it a surprise when Scott interpreted the character in the way that he did? Landon: So for this one, Anne, you read it ahead of time, Anne, which was wonderful of you to do that, because I wrote this in first person present tense. I felt that I had to know Sean Frost better than any character that I've ever written before. And I am not exaggerating here. I spent months working on Sean. I have 60 or so handwritten, two-sided loose leaf pieces of paper with notes about Sean Frost, his backstory, where he was raised, the toys that he played with when he was young. You know, millions of things that will never get into the book. And a lot of that was inspired by a book that had come out just recently, Character by Robert McKee. And it can be really intimidating to go through his books, but they're so worth it because the journey he takes you through in the -- he asks the hard questions. And so I told Scott this beforehand, I said, my biggest fear when the book was to come out was that someone would get to a place -- like you said, you know, if you get one word wrong, like he's talking about with Dan, is that someone would say, Sean Frost would never say that. Or Sean Frost would never do that. And that's scary and intimidating because you don't want something to take the reader or listener out of the experience. And so I felt comfortable after putting all that work in that I knew who he was, at least to start writing about him. And to add into the research before I say about, you know, Scott's interpretation of Sean, one thing that our relationship has developed far enough along where we're comfortable sending each other things and suggestions. And so this has a lot of pop cultural references, but it also has, I always have a soundtrack for all of my books, and it's, you know, songs that inspired me while I was writing. And if someone listened to all of those that say, how in the heck did you get Narrator out of all of those or the nonfiction books that I read? But there's something about it that I know as Scott, as a performer, as an actor, they're hungry for information. And let me see what I can do with this. And it's always on, you know, I always kinda say a volunteer basis -- he could use nothing that I give him, and we'd be completely fine. But because we're friends and we've had exchange of ideas, and in a lot of points in Narrator that made it better, it was the, let's let the best idea win here, no matter who came up with it. And so I was happy to, to go along with that. But I sent him an email for Narrator that was just massive, but it had every single pop cultural reference in Narrator. And there are points where, as you know, Sean acts them out in his mind and he's thinking about them. And so I thought, well, what if I sent those to Scott ahead of time? And so when he got to that part of the book, he could, he could look at that and work into the scene. And like, like he said, no one else would know that he watched Michael Douglas yelling to Sean Penn in The Game before he actually acted that out. But it keeps things fresh and, you know, energetic. And so that's what I would say about his performance is that, oh my gosh. I mean, just delighted. And I don't know a ton about the industry, but the respect that I gained in the year to year and a half of research before I approached him, I'm surprised I kept it a secret that long, but I was so intimidated before going because I wanted to make sure that I had done my job. But what I did realize is that there are interpretations and decisions -- he's making creative choices of taking that character on sometimes in every line or every word with what you're gonna stress and whatnot that I never noticed before. I always say that Scott and other wonderful performers, they make it seem easy where, oh, I'm just listening to this great audio book. I'm completely in there. But the decisions that you have to make to have that come alive. So yeah, absolutely. To see that hard work pay off, and to see the directions that Scott took it as an artist and creator in his own right, I couldn't be happier. . Anne: That's awesome. So Scott, tell us a little bit about the process, about how you got yourself into character. Scott: So funny, because in acting circles, you're either method or you're not, right? Maybe you're more of a technique actor. God, what's that grape line by Spencer Tracy? He's, you know, his approach to acting was memorize his lines. Don't bump into the furniture. I'm not a method actor, and yet I really like to prepare my mood. We have to prepare the text, make sure everything is pronounced correctly. I have a researcher who handles that for me, but I want to make sure that my head is in the right space. So, yeah. I will watch Night Moves, the Gene Hackman film. Before Narrator, I watched Misery because they're similarities, you know? Somebody who's being held against their will and forced to create basically. What I find really interesting is, I'm going through all the pop culture references that Landon sends me, is sometimes I find some that really work elsewhere. For instance, he was talking about this, and as you heard in the preview, this character, Nehemiah Stone. Well, that's a character who was very much, I think in the same vein as Jack Reacher. And I'm all also blessed to work on that series. I got 'em all right up there, just right behind me. And Landon emailed me and said, you know, while writing this part of the book, I was listening to the theme from The Incredible Hulk in the 1970s, The Lonely Man that marvelous piano music at the end. It's heartbreaking. That actually used to be my ring tone on my phone, but it was so silent that I couldn't hear my phone ring. So I had . But now a month or two after I did Narrator, I did the most recent Jack Reacher novel, which was called No Plan B. And I watched that video. I listened to that music every day before getting started. And nobody who's listening to either Narrator or a Jack Reacher novel is gonna go, wow. Sounds like he was listening to this, to the Incredible Hulk theme. But audiobooks is a type of storytelling where subtlety plays, and if it affects my performance just in a little way, then wonderful. Anne: Yeah. And I felt that absolutely while listening to it, so many subtle, tiny things. I felt close from the beginning, really to the character, which I thought was just phenomenal. So I imagine that because you guys had so much correspondence back and forth, Scott, this is different for you in other books, sometimes. You don't have as much collaboration with the author, right? And so then what other things do you have to do to prepare? As you mentioned, some of your publishers don't necessarily want you to collaborate so much. So what do you do to prepare for those characters and for those books? Scott: I have a real keen sense for genre. Look, I love certain genres that I work in simply because I'm a book fan. That's the reason I got into this industry. I'll give you an example. We just, I was working with Penguin Random House and the estate of Raymond Chandler, and his family wanted the whole Philip Marlow Omnibus rerecorded. And they wanted to add music. And so they were looking for a new voice for Philip Marlow. And they hired me. Now, sadly, Chandler passed away, and I want to say it was the late 50s, early 60s. There was no way I was gonna be able to have any interaction with him other than reading books that he wrote about writing. So what I did is, every single night -- there were eight books, seven novels, and one book of short stories. We recorded them over the course of a year, and every single night, the night before I would record, I would watch, maybe it was The Big Sleep, an actual Philip Marlow story. Maybe it was Double Indemnity. But I was watching film noir constantly, just to put myself in that mood, in that mindset, that hard boiled detective meeting the, you know, the femme fatale. Sometimes that's all you got. I've done that while doing the horror novels. I've watched Shining the night before, or The Ring. Yeah. I've done the same thing when I was recording Somewhere in Time. I watched time travel romances just to put myself in the right mood. Landon: Anne, if I could add something about the character and what Scott was able to bring to the table, I was asked in a recent interview, how did you pick Scott to do this? And, and I said that even if I would've had five different narrators before writing Narrator, I said, of course I would've gone after Scott because I knew it was first person present tense. But also it's so much in the mind of Sean Frost. And when I listened to Scott's work where he does first person -- one, if you identify with that character, at some point you're listening and you think, I'm that character. I'm going through this. Which is a wonder of fiction. But also two, you become immediately immersed in the narrative and the novel. Anne: Oh yeah. Landon: And Scott is great at that. It's kind of what they said about Tom Hanks when they picked him for Robert Langdon, is that they thought that without speaking, he is a fantastic actor of someone who's thinking, and less is more. And I like to think of Scott in those terms of when someone is speaking inside of their head and that internal monologue was a natural choice. And the caveat that we joke about is that, you know, Scott is not Sean Frost , but I thought he was perfectly suited to play that role. Like, and some people have asked me, they're like, they're like, Scott is Sean. I'm like, no, he's not. Anne: I was gonna say, can you identify -- Landon: But he was perfect for it because he's a conglomeration of all the narrators that I researched. All their methods and stuff are kind of melded into this one character. So yes, there is some of Scott that is in there, definitely. But some of the routines that Sean have are completely different than what Scott does. . Anne: Well, that's kind of good in a way. . Scott: All of my colleagues, all the narrators who've gotten back to me and said, I love this book. They don't ask about like abuse issues. They don't -- but anything like that, what they wanna know is, do you really make as much money as Sean Frost does? And I of course say, yes, I do, even though I don't . Anne: Landon, I wanted to say like the first person writing a novel in the first person I thought was really for this novel, I just thought it was really wonderful. Again, like you said, you picked Scott because you thought for him to do it in the character in first person was just, I think a phenomenal choice. Landon: Oh, thank you, Anne. That means a lot. Anne: But is that a choice as an author? Like, okay, when you sit down, you've got an idea to start writing. Like what makes you decide whether it's first person or how you're going to present that? Landon: Well, for this particular case, this is the first time that I've ever written first person. Scott knows from my other books, they've been the third person closed, third person omniscient. But coming up in getting ready to write this book, it really, a lot of it had to do with the fact that I'm trying to dramatize and make a psychological thriller about someone who stays in a really confined space, in a booth. And I empathize with that in terms of an author. I mean, I'm in my office right now, Anne, for 12 hours a day. It's really, really boring and lonely and hard work. And that's why I look forward to these calls, one, to see my buddy here because, you know, we need this as, as creators to touch base with each other every once in a while. And I always leave energized and enthused. But I thought it's gotta be a psychological thriller that's the route to go with making this so that there, I can bring in suspense and reliable narration, unreliable narration. And it opens up a different menu of things to play with the audience's mind and wonder what's real and get as many reversals, authentic reversals, not just cursory ones as we can throughout the entire book to keep people on, on the edge of their seats. So I thought for this one, I had to go all in on this one character. And I say this a bit tongue in cheek, but not, I miss him. I, I, I'm miss writing Sean. I really do. For that one intense period, and I think Scott would agree that when we got to the actual recording, I mean, it was like we were living in the same house next door to each other, and then it breaks away, and you go months without talking to someone. But that was so intense and we had to collaborate and work on a few issues that it was, I don't know, it's, it's like nothing I've never experienced before. Scott: Also, just from my perspective, what it allowed me to do was -- I don't wanna use the word improvisation, because this is a book. It's written, it is scripted. And yet there are those moments where you can improvise in terms of your performance. Not change the words, but like, he asked me about my own particular method of recording it. And for many years I've used a tally clicker. And I can demonstrate to you, you know, it's one of those things that click when you're going in and out of a venue, you see the guy who's counting heads. You know, how many people do we have inside now? Okay. It's technically called it tally clicker. But when I just use the words tally clicker, people always say to me, what? And I'm like, well, so I have to explain. Anne: Got one right here. Scott: Anything that makes the noise. Landon: There it is. There it is. Scott: Anything that will spike the wave form the waveform. Okay, well it's one thing to hear about it and then it's another thing to actually hear it. So I reached out to Landon, and I was like, how about -- 'cause this happens at the very beginning as I'm talking about the tally clicker -- how about I leave one of them in? And I had to call my, my edit my post house to say, I want all of them taken out except that one because it's the one that illustrates. As I'm talking about the tally clicker, I just went up to the microphone and just hit it four or five times. Oh, okay. Great. It'll help the listener. There was four or five things like that that, and I would always email Landon and say, is it okay if I put this in? At one point, I'm literally dabbing my lip balm on. He talks, you know, Sean, he's swishing his mouth with water. I left it in , you -- why not? Anne: I was at home, I'm telling you. Landon: It was so perfect. It was like special effects for a few parts. But it was those kinda layers that I think made this special in my opinion. Especially the time that he goes through Sean's routine, 'cause he goes through it a few times. But Scott picked the perfect moment because it's right at the climax, and here he is, you know, triumphant from let's just say some obstacles that he's had to climb over. And he's like, I dab this and you can hear it. And then I take a swig of water, and you can hear it. And I'm like, that is so perfect. I never even would've thought of that. Anne: I am in the booth. I am in the booth. Landon: I was there. Right there. Scott: The shape of your lips, it changes the sound coming out of it. And I was like, darn right. You know, and people were asking, my buddies were asking me, were you just like dabbing it with your finger? Hell no, I'm using -- Anne: Oh my gosh. Landon: Michelle Cobb was texting Scott back and forth and who is emailing me. And she was talking about it on the podcast, and she's just, you know, having a blast with the whole concept of Sean Frost. She's like, Scott, he's in a tuxedo. But I said, you know, the character that he was narrating in this book listened to me was -- and so I said, well, let's let Sean as a professional get into a little bit of method and do that. And so, yeah, I'm glad that some people like those moments and found them -- Anne: Loved them. Landon: -- entertaining and humorous. Anne: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Landon: It was fun. Anne: Absolutely. So is there a movie in the future? I don't know, I just Landon: I tell you what, I, I would absolutely love to see this made, and I was a screen writer before I was a novelist, and that's where my degree is in, my master's is in screenwriting. And so a lot of this, when I got to the end of it, I said, gosh, I can just, I can see it. So fingers crossed. Hey, anybody listening to this podcast, please reach out to Scott and myself . Anne: Yeah. Fantastic. So I asked that, but what's in the future for you next, Landon? Another book? What's happening? Landon: Yep. So I'm in the final editing stages of a murder mystery, and that's going to come out a month from now, right around Christmas. And I just found this out the other day that the first book in the series, Huron Breeze for thebestthrillerbooks.com won mystery of the year for 2022. Anne: Congrats. Landon: So I'm just excited, humbled, surprised, but it's gonna be neat to release a sequel when all of that gets shared. And so what Scott and I have talked about is that at some point, we'll do our pre-recording conference for Huron Nights, because we're gonna take the main character into a complicated place, because it's part of a trilogy. So usually this is kind of the Empire Strikes Back episode of a trilogy where everything goes to hell, and then they've gotta come back in the third one. So I look forward to that, and I have some, some interesting ideas of some things that might inspire him as he gets ready for his performance. And then I'm collaborating too with Susanne Elise Freeman on a novella, which is gonna take place in between books two and three, and it's going to be an assassination, spy, espionage short. And so we've already talked over Zoom, and I'm thrilled to be working with her. She's gonna of course play the main character in this one. And then we'll wrap up this trilogy with Huron Sunrise. And then finally I'm gonna get to the end of the Great Lake Saga, which is book five in that saga. I have a book on every Great Lake, and so I have four of them, but the last one has taken a backseat just because once Narrator got into my mind, I mean, the seas parted and it was all I had to get that out. And then of course the mystery, that's kind of taken on its own life. It was only planned as a standalone, but so many fans liked it and wanted more, I was like, well, I, I'll have to think about it. I did not plan to write anymore about that. Anne: Yeah. Well count me as one of those. Landon: Busy year coming up. Anne: Yeah. Well, it sounds like so much fun, all your projects coming up. Scott: You know what I, what I love about it is that when we were doing the first book in that series Huron Breeze, and there's this moment where there's a book within a book, right? There's a, a woman writer at the center of it, and she has written this wildly successful book, and they talk about how the audio book was narrated by Susanne Elise Freeman, my girlfriend. And I, and there was like a line or two in it that she actually says, and I said to Landon, you want me to have her come down to the booth and just have her say that? And so we had her do the, the opening credits too, so you -- her voice wouldn't come as a surprise. And then Landon gets this idea that like, oh, maybe I'll write the book within the book. And so he's having Suzanne narrate it; I just love it. It's become a cliche to, to talk about thinking outside the box, but that's where growth comes from. That's where industry norms become, you know, stretched and we expand and grow. And I just love the fact that he is open to, great, let's do something a little different. Anne: Well, I have to tell you, I'm not an audiobook narrator. I've, I've narrated one a long time ago, but I'll tell you what, you guys just make it sound so wonderful and delightful that, BOSSes out there, I'll tell ya, you guys are inspirational. And I really, really appreciate you talking to us today. And I had all these questions, but the whole conversation, I just love the direction it took and I appreciate. Scott: No, I was, and I was gonna have to cut you off from saying nice things. Anyway, that another 15 minutes. That's it. Anne: Well Scott, tell us, outside of working with Landon, is there anything else going on in your future that you'd like to let the BOSSes know about? Any other exciting projects? Scott: Yeah, I've got some wonderful books I've been working on recently. Just finished a historical thriller. It's non-fiction, but it was about the plot to kill Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin at the conference in Tehran, the first of the two times that the three of them met during World War II. The Nazi, it's called The Nazi Conspiracy. And that was really just a brilliant book. I'm also working on a couple of podcasting projects, scripted podcasts about the history of LA, the history of the entertainment industry. You can tell from books behind me, I love the silent film era, and I have an idea that I would love to just share with anybody who's like-minded and fascinated. Anne: Yeah. I'm already intrigued by that. I think that sounds like a fabulous idea. Scott: Awesome. Anne: Absolutely. So tell the BOSSes how they can get Narrator and any other book. Landon, where is it available, at Amazon, on your website? Where can they go to find out more? Landon: So there's links to all of my books on my website, LandonBeachBooks.com. But the Kindle version is exclusively on Amazon, but the paperback, you can get at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, anywhere pretty much. And the audio books are wide, so anywhere that audiobooks are sold, you can get a copy of Narrator in 30 seconds. Anne: Fantastic. Yes. So any last, I'm gonna say tips for the BOSSes out there for them to be BOSSes and be successful in their voiceover endeavors or their writing endeavors? Scott: I would say, from my perspective, don't be afraid to reach out to the author because you never know what can happen because of it. Be willing to do something that you might not ordinarily do in the booth. Years ago, there was a book I was doing where one character had an entire package of chewing gum we wanted in his cheek, and it actually spoke about how it changed the sound of his voice. And I knew it wouldn't sound right if I was just doing this. So I reached out and I said, would it be okay if I record all those lines separate and they get edited in later? I checked with the editor, with the publisher and I recorded the whole freaking thing with a, a wad of chewing gum in my mouth. And never in my life before or since have I brought chewing gum into a booth . But that was the time it seemed appropriate. So dare to think differently. Anne: Yeah. That makes the difference. Landon? Landon: Yeah, so I would say an idea that you might want to consider, I know that a lot of audiobook narrators, they will put some of their background and their history of what they did before they became an audiobook narrator. But I would encourage them to list as many things as they were involved in before because you never know if an author is writing about a specific subject -- we can use Narrator as an example. But of course I was looking for someone who had not only audiobook narrating experience, but performing arts experience, which was another reason it worked out perfectly to go with Scott on this. But maybe there is an opportunity of, I don't know, if you were a trucker or something else before you became a narrator, that you might be able to lend a unique experience and voice to that project in a realm that you're already really well versed in with audio books. So I would say, you know, not to run away from your previous background. It might lead to an interesting book that you're a part of. And the other part is just that, yes, there are some authors, and I can say this, they don't really wanna have a relationship. You know, they're like, I did this, you know. The narrator doesn't exist without me because I wrote the book. And you know, obviously those are not gonna be the kind of relationships that would work out like Scott. But with us, there might be an opportunity to really have a unique kind of collaborative environment, not like a total collaboration, which we've said, which is, you know, I have my turf and he has his. But yeah, there could be something that you did not know or expect. I never saw this coming until we became friends, and I, I really can't see Narrator without it now, if that makes sense. So. Yeah. Anne: Absolutely does. Well, gentlemen, it has been such a joy talking to both of you. Thank you so, so much for your words of wisdom and inspiration. And BOSSes, go get Narrator. I'm telling you, go out and get it now. In less than 10 seconds you can click and have this experience for yourselves. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I'm gonna give a great big shout-out to our sponsor, ipDTL. You too can connect and work like BOSSes. Find out more at ipDTL.com. You guys, have an amazing week and I'll see you next week. Bye. >> Join us next week for another edition of VO BOSS with your host Anne Ganguzza. And take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at voBOSS.com and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies, and new ways to rock your business like a BOSS. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via ipDTL.

This episode of the YOU MATTER To Christ Podcast (formerly Living A Better Story) features Scott Anderson, Founder and CEO of Doubledare Executive Coaching and Consulting. He focuses on helping business leaders avoid burnout and reclaim their energy for fulfillment at work and in life. He talks about the inevitability of having negative thoughts and how these can cause burnout and dissatisfaction in our lives.   HIGHLIGHTS Scott's advice to the younger "Scott" You're exactly where you're supposed to be so have faith What burnout is about How to recover from burnout   QUOTES Scott: "I could choose fear or I could choose faith. But it's not inevitable, it's not like I don't have a say in the way I experience my day and my life. It takes practice and it takes discipline and, really, I think what it takes is having made a mountain of mistakes more than anything else." Scott: "We have to multiple times a day, even take 5 or 10 seconds to completely drop the stress. Otherwise, it's this biochemical cycle and the psychological cycle of having unrelieved stress that ultimately results in this bone-tired exhaustion." Scott: "Instead we have to shift our whole basis of living and action and focus on our values instead of our thoughts and emotions. In that way, we will always do what matters most to us. But it's a shift, most of us are addicted to listening to our thoughts and emotions and responding accordingly."   Connect with Scott by following the links below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottandersonms/ Website: https://burnoutbreakthrough.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Steve interviews Scott Cundill, published author, international kung fu medalist and owner of My Most Trusted plug-in for LinkedIn. Through his chrome plug-in My Most Trusted, you can form a trusted business referral and introduction network around you, see other people's trusted connections and ask for a referral, speed up LinkedIn by 300%, use My Most Trusted Circles to replace WhatsApp groups, separate trusted LinkedIn connections from ordinary connections, get a LinkedIn CRM/ prospecting tool and get additional features like quick message templates for LinkedIn, super-fast LinkedIn invitations, connection messages and tracking. As well as providing this tool to turn LinkedIn into a sales prospecting tool, Scott offers coaching sessions on how to use My Most Trusted and how to formulate a sales strategy for yourself or your organisation.   KEY TAKEAWAYS  If you have a really strong core group of people who like you and trust you, you will always stay relevant to that group of key people. Build your relevance as someone who is really good at diagnosing, listening and presenting a solution, and then people will start to come to you with their problems.  This system is not just an automated bot which targets random people. This is a network-creating tool. The free ebook “The Captivating One-Liner” will instruct you on how to create that one opening line in your communication that will capture and focus your potential client's interest. Scott's organisation helps you to target and streamline your message and work with you to fully utilise his software's potential for an optimum return. In your message, make it clear who you are targeting with a series of messaging to build your reputation, and then you can really create traction over time.   BEST MOMENTS  ‘I chat to Scott Cundill all about how to convert people on your LinkedIn profile into being customers who really want to do business with you.' – Steve ‘Usually, the magic number comes down to 150. It usually changes a little bit, but what that means is if you're really relevant to 150 core people, then you will get 30 deals out of it, and you will have a really successful business practice.' - Scott ‘You reach out with their pain, and you just let them know “, I understand you, I get your pain.” You don't ask for anything in return.” – Scott    ‘You want your end goal to be relevant to 150 people. In other words, you've got 150 people, not just on your LinkedIn. I'm talking about 150 people that are clicking, that is opening, that is interested in following you.” - Scott   GUEST RESOURCES The My Most Trusted site ;  https://maj3.com/mymosttrusted/ Scott's free ebook “The Captivating One-Liner”; https://majestic3.com/the_captivating_one_liner.html LinkedIn ; https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottcundill/   VALUABLE RESOURCES Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/SystemsAndOutsourcing/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/systemsandoutsourcing/ Website: http://www.systemizeyoursuccess.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/drsteveday The RIGHT Assistants For Your Business by Dr Steve Day: http://bit.ly/sys-10   ABOUT THE HOST Steve used to be a slave to his business but when he moved to Sweden in 2015, he was forced to change the way he worked. He switched to running his businesses remotely and after totally nailing this concept he decided to spend his time helping other small business owners do the same. Steve's been investing in property since 2002, has a degree in Computing, and worked as a doctor in the NHS before quitting to focus full-time on sharing his systems and outsourcing Methodology with the world. He now lives in Sweden and runs his UK-based businesses remotely with the help of his team of Filipino and UK-based Virtual Assistants. Most business owners are overwhelmed because they don't' know how to create systems or get the right help. Our systems and outsourcing Courses and coaching programme will help you automate your business and work effectively with affordable virtual assistants. That way, you will stop feeling overwhelmed and start making more money.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

HIGHLIGHTSScott's story about his research on leadershipScott's definition of leadershipCommon mistakes leaders make that destroy employee engagementWhat the best leaders do that encourages employee engagementHow to measure creativity in leadershipChallenges to be a good leaderHow to measure employee engagementScott's leadership scorecardHow to coach leadership and growthWhy emotional intelligence is important in being a leaderThe Leadership Accelerator ProgramQUOTESScott: “Well, it wasn't my full time job. It was my passion project. And so I didn't have to bankroll doing nothing else for five years, but no, okay. What I was curious about is leadership is just this nebulous, confusing, fuzzy thing.”Scott: “Let's make it practical, let's make it what does it actually mean? And to me, it means working through others to get things done.”Scott: “An A player on one team can be a D player on a different team, simply because of the way that the leader interacts with them.”Scott: “I think the key for modern leadership is compassion. And it's really looking after your people like you want your people to want to help you.”Scott: “People work and people give their best effort. People show up at work, because there's some purpose bigger than just earning a paycheck or some purpose bigger than making somebody else more money.”Scott: “You have to accept that not everything can be predictable, not everything can be efficient, not everything can be and that's the wrong goal. Do you truly want innovation? Then you have to leave some slack. Right? You can't have everything, you know, budgeted precisely to the penny into the minute into the hour, you just can't do that with innovative work.”Scott: “I think one of the harder things that I've had to try to get people to realize is that you're going to be respected more and appreciated more, if you do some other things, like you mentioned a few of them, you know, clarity and compassion, and just really set the table for these people to shine. But get out of their way and let them be the hero of the story. That's really what's going to help them give you the most value.”Scott: “The single biggest thing about being a good leader is how you think about it. It's not skills. It's not the scorecard. It's not understanding this, it's not understanding that it is this idea that my job as a leader is to work through others, and is to be more of a facilitator and more of an enabler than it is to be a doer.”Scott: “As a leader, you have to emotionally be able to step back and say, it's more important for them to get this to get this win for themselves than it is for me to jump in and be the technician.”Jonathan: “First, build a cohesive leadership team. Second, create clarity, third, over communicate that clarity. And fourth, reinforce that clarity.”To connect with Scott, check out the links below: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottdrake/Website: jumpcoach.comIf you enjoyed today's episode, please subscribe, review and share with a friend who would benefit from the message. If you're interested in picking up a copy of Jonathan Goldhill's book, Disruptive Successor, go to the website at www.DisruptiveSuccessor.com.

This week Matthew and Kim sit down with Scott and Erika Savor. These two are extremely driven in their individual careers while still staying exceptionally dedicated to making time to connect with each other every day. This kickass couple makes holding your spouse accountable fun and playful with checklists, team huddles, and ‘tag' games. They get real about how to balance confronting your partner with difficult conversations while still being respectful. They also discuss how being sensitive to criticism can be a downfall in a relationship and how they have learned to combat this. Listen to this episode for tangible exercises you and your partner can begin practicing today to strengthen your values, connection, and trust with your family and partner. Keys Ideas:-the power of writing down your core values as a couple -Sticking up for what you believe in, in your relationship -gratitude-being present -self-love and independence Quotes:“It's our core value system. It's written, printed out, publicly announced core values.” Scott “If she's flooded with patients she'll always try to check-in. Daily check-ins, daily huddles, after work, what are the most important things, we call them MITS… get me up to speed, ill get you up to speed so we can pull the cart in the same direction.” -Scott “Connect, relate, trust and repeat.” -Scott “I have to share with him, whether it's a sensitive truth, what I believe is right and not care how he responds. Because I used to be the person like my mom who would do whatever I needed to do to make him happy.” - Erika“The resolution is the fact that we may disagree and that's okay. The problem isn't so much of all the things that were unpacking but what we did was end up having the conversation, that was the progress.” -Erika “It's a really big deal that we believe in ourselves. We can't get the best out of each other, we can't collaborate at a high level and give whatever we give to the world until we believe in ourselves.” - Scott “You have to be the best version of you so you can be the best version for them.” - Erika Check out Scott's website: https://scottsavor.com/about-scott-savorFollow us:Instagram: @kickasscouplesnationFacebook: @KickasscouplesnationTwitter: @kickasscouplesOrder Kickass Husband Kickass Husband: Winning at Life, Marriage, and Sex by Matthew Hoffman https://matthewphoffman.com#winningcouples #winning #couples #relationships #relationshipgoals #marriage #mentalhealth #couplesgoals #couplescounseling #marriagecounseling #relationshipadvice #marriagegoals #couplesofinstagram #communication #couplestravel #relationshipcoach #relationship #coupleslove #relationshiptips #christiancouples #couplegoals #healthyrelationships #kickasscouples #kickasscouplesnation #kickasscouplespodcast #marriagememes #strongmarriage #marriedforlife #relationshiptips

HIGHLIGHTS06:38 How Natsuyo landed in New York 07:31 Natsuyo's unusual family life in Japan 15:33 How Japanese communication is very different from the New York-American way19:00 Getting started with Toastmasters24:05 Diving headfirst into competitive speaking25:45 Always focus on one big message26:44 Speaking is entertainment: Catching people's attention29:23 The process of improving your speech helps you grow as a person30:56 Natsuyo's struggle with breast cancer 34:59 Telling a story can heal both the speaker and the audience 38:35 Intercultural communication: Connecting with audiences of different nationalities41:52 Connect with Natsuyo42:54 Natsuyo's favorite leader and speakerQUOTES17:58 Natsuyo: "The interesting thing about cross-cultural issues is you need to be flexible. You can't be far right or far left. You need to be able to gauge where the other person is in relative to where you are and how you wanna adjust to yourself so you are not only heard, but your message is acted upon. 26:42 Natsuyo: "I always thought that performing arts and business don't merge. But at that moment, I figured out speaking is an entertainment, and you have to be able to entertain the listeners so that they will really hear you and act on your message."29:48 Natsuyo:  "I really believe the speech writing process is about self-improvement or self-development because when you craft a story, you really have to go deeper into yourself, deep into your past, and really have a deep understanding of why you did what you did and what was your learning." 34:54 Natsuyo: "I shared my story and I felt like I really felt like through stories. I can connect with the audience, heart to heart, and speaking was healing for me. So telling a story healed me and also it healed the audience to whatever they're feeling, whatever pain they had."36:37 Scott: "You shared something intimate about yourself. And I, as a listener, felt connected to you, not just as a talking head or someone passing on information, but as a human being. And that's where the feelings inside come out and it's a genuine connection. There's real power there.39:16 Natsuyo: "The message itself is really universal. It  doesn't matter what country you're from. Everyone has hearts and everyone has experienced some hardship. So when you, find a universal message, that resonates with everyone in the world. that being said, the way to deliver your story may be slightly different depending on who you're talking to, especially in different cultures."Connect with Natsuyo in the links below:LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/natsuyolipschutz/Website - https://natsuyolipschutz.us/Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/natsuyolInstagram - https://www.instagram.com/natsuyo_lipschutz/Find out more about Toastmasters, visit https://toastmasters46.org/ and follow District 46 on:Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/toastmasters46/LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/company/toast-masters-district-46Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/TMDistrict46/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/toastmasters46/Twitter - https://twitter.com/district46tmPlease rate, review and subscribe!Toastmasters - where leaders are made.

About ScottScott first typed ‘docker run' in 2013 and hasn't looked back. He's been with Docker since 2014 in a variety of leadership roles and currently serves as CEO. His experience previous to Docker includes Sun Microsystems, Puppet, Netscape, Cisco, and Loudcloud (parent of Opsware). When not fussing with computers he spends time with his three kids fussing with computers.Links: Docker: https://www.docker.com Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottcjohnston TranscriptAnnouncer: Hello, and welcome to Screaming in the Cloud with your host, Chief Cloud Economist at The Duckbill Group, Corey Quinn. This weekly show features conversations with people doing interesting work in the world of cloud, thoughtful commentary on the state of the technical world, and ridiculous titles for which Corey refuses to apologize. This is Screaming in the Cloud.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by Liquibase. If you're anything like me, you've screwed up the database part of a deployment so severely that you've been banned from touching every anything that remotely sounds like SQL, at at least three different companies. We've mostly got code deployments solved for, but when it comes to databases we basically rely on desperate hope, with a roll back plan of keeping our resumes up to date. It doesn't have to be that way. Meet Liquibase. It is both an open source project and a commercial offering. Liquibase lets you track, modify, and automate database schema changes across almost any database, with guardrails to ensure you'll still have a company left after you deploy the change. No matter where your database lives, Liquibase can help you solve your database deployment issues. Check them out today at liquibase.com. Offer does not apply to Route 53.Corey: This episode is sponsored in part by something new. Cloud Academy is a training platform built on two primary goals. Having the highest quality content in tech and cloud skills, and building a good community the is rich and full of IT and engineering professionals. You wouldn't think those things go together, but sometimes they do. Its both useful for individuals and large enterprises, but here's what makes it new. I don't use that term lightly. Cloud Academy invites you to showcase just how good your AWS skills are. For the next four weeks you'll have a chance to prove yourself. Compete in four unique lab challenges, where they'll be awarding more than $2000 in cash and prizes. I'm not kidding, first place is a thousand bucks. Pre-register for the first challenge now, one that I picked out myself on Amazon SNS image resizing, by visiting cloudacademy.com/corey. C-O-R-E-Y. That's cloudacademy.com/corey. We're gonna have some fun with this one!Corey: Welcome to Screaming in the Cloud. I'm Corey Quinn. Once upon a time, I started my public speaking career as a traveling contract trainer for Puppet; I've talked about this before. And during that time, I encountered someone who worked there as an exec, Scott Johnston, who sat down, talked to me about how I viewed things, and then almost immediately went to go work at Docker instead. Today's promoted episode brings Scott on to the show. Scott, you fled to get away from me, became the CEO of Docker over the past, oh what is it, seven years now. You're still standing there, and I'm not making fun of Docker quite the way that I used to. First, thanks for joining me.Scott: Great to be here, Corey. Thanks for the invitation. I'm not sure I was fleeing you, but we can recover that one at another time.Corey: Oh, absolutely. In that era, one of my first talks that I started giving that anyone really paid any attention to was called, “Heresy in the Church of Docker,” where I listed about 10 to 13 different things that Docker didn't seem to have answers for, like network separation, security, audit logging, et cetera, et cetera. And it was a fun talk that I used to basically learn how to speak publicly without crying before and after the talk. And in time, it wound up aging out as these problems got addressed, but what surprised me at the time was how receptive the Docker community was to the idea of a talk that wound up effectively criticizing something that for, well, a number of them it felt a lot of the time like it wasn't that far from a religion; it was very hype-driven: “Docker, Docker, Docker” was a recurring joke. Docker has changed a lot. The burning question that I think I want to start this off with is that it's 2021; what is Docker? Is it a technology? Is it a company? Is it a religion? Is it a community? What is Docker?Scott: Yes. I mean that sincerely. Often, the first awareness or the first introduction that newcomers have is in fact the community, before they get their hands on the product, before they learn that there's a company behind the product is they have a colleague who is, either through a Zoom or sitting next to them in some places, or in a coffee shop, and says, “Hey, you got to try this thing called Docker.” And they lean over—either virtually or physically—and look at the laptop of their friend who's promoting Docker, and they see a magical experience. And that is the introduction of so many of our community members, having spoken with them and heard their own kind of journeys.And so that leads to like, “Okay, so why the excitement? Why did the friend lean over to the other friend and introduce?” It's because the tools that Docker provides just helps devs get their app built and shipping faster, more securely, with choice, without being tied into any particular runtime, any particular infrastructure. And that combination has proven to be a breakthrough dopamine hit to developers since the very beginning, since 2013, when Docker is open-source.Corey: It feels like originally, the breakthrough of Docker, that people will say, “Oh, containers aren't new. We've had that going back to LPARs on mainframes.” Yes, I'm aware, but suddenly, it became easy to work with and didn't take tremendous effort to get unified environments. It was cynically observed at the time by lots of folks smarter than I am, that the big breakthrough Docker had was how to make my MacBook look a lot more like a Linux server in production. And we talk about breaking down silos between ops and dev, but in many ways, this just meant that the silo became increasingly irrelevant because, “Works on my machine” was no longer a problem.“Well, you better back up your email because your laptop's about to go into production in that case.” Containers made it easier and that was a big deal. It seems, on some level, like there was a foray where Docker the company was moving into the world of, “Okay, now we're going to run a lot of these containers in production for you, et cetera.” It really feels like recently, the company as a whole and the strategy has turned towards getting back to its roots of solving developer problems and positioning itself as a developer tool. Is that a fair characterization?Scott: A hundred percent. That's very intentional, as well. We certainly had good products, and great customers, and we're solving problems for customers on the ops side, I'll call it, but when we stood back—this is around 2019—and said, “Where's the real… joy?” For lack of a better word, “Where's the real joy from a community standpoint, from a product experience standpoint, from a what do we do different and better and more capable than anyone else in the ecosystem?” It was that developer experience. And so the reset that you're referring to in November 2019, was to give us the freedom to go back and just focus the entire company's efforts on the needs of developers without any other distractions from a revenue, customer, channel, so on and so forth.Corey: So, we knew this was going to come up in the conversation, but as of a couple of weeks ago—as of the time of this recording—you announced a somewhat, well, let's say controversial change in how the pricing and licensing works. Now, as of—taking effect at the end of this year—the end of January, rather, of next year—Docker Desktop is free for folks to use for individual use, and that's fine, and for corporate use, Docker Desktop also remains free until you are a large company defined by ten million in revenue a year and/or 250 employees or more. And that was interesting and I don't think I'd seen that type of requirement placed before on what was largely an open-source project that's now a developer tool. I believe there are closed-source aspects of it as well for the desktop experience, but please don't quote me on that; I'm not here to play internet lawyer engineer. But at that point, the internet was predictably upset about this because it is easy to yell about any change that is coming, regardless.I was less interested in that than I am in what the reception has been from your corporate customers because, let's be clear, users are important, community is important, but goodwill will not put food on the table past a certain point. There has to be a way to make a company sustainable, there has to be a recurring revenue model. I realize that you know this, but I'm sure there are people listening to this who are working in development somewhere who are, “Wait, you mean I need to add more value than I cost?” It was a hard revelation for [laugh] me back when I had been in the industry a few years—Scott: [laugh]. Sure.Corey: —and I'm still struggling with that—Scott: Sure.Corey: Some days.Scott: You and me both. [laugh].Corey: So, what has the reaction been from folks who have better channels of communicating with you folks than angry Twitter threads?Scott: Yeah. Create surface area for a discussion, Corey. Let's back up and talk on a couple points that you hit along the way there. One is, “What is Docker Desktop?” Docker Desktop is not just Docker Engine.Docker Desktop is a way in which we take Docker Engine, Compose, Kubernetes, all important tools for developers building modern apps—Docker Build, so on and so forth—and we provide an integrated engineered product that is engineered for the native environments of Mac and Windows, and soon Linux. And so we make it super easy to get the container runtime, Kubernetes stack, the networking, the CLI, Compose, we make it super easy just to get that up and running and configured with smart defaults, secured, hardened, and importantly updated. So, any vulnerabilities patched and so on and so forth. The point is, it's a product that is based on—to your comments—upstream open-source technologies, but it is an engineered commercial product—Docker Desktop is.Corey: Docker Desktop is a fantastic tool; I use it myself. I could make a bunch of snide comments that on Mac, it's basically there to make sure the fans are still working on the laptop, but again, computers are hard. I get that. It's incredibly handy to have a graphical control panel. It turns out that I don't pretend to understand those people, but some folks apparently believe that there are better user interfaces than text and an 80-character-wide terminal window. I don't pretend to get those people, but not everyone has the joy of being a Linux admin for far too long. So, I get it, making it more accessible, making it easy, is absolutely worth using.Scott: That's right.Corey: It's not a hard requirement to run it on a laptop-style environment or developer workstation, but it makes it really convenient.Scott: Before Docker desktop, one had to install a hypervisor, install a Linux VM, install Docker Engine on that Linux VM, bridge between the VM and the local CLI on the native desktop—like, lots of setup and maintenance and tricky stuff that can go wrong. Trust me how many times I stubbed my own toes on putting that together. And so Docker Desktop is designed to take all of that setup nonsense overhead away and just let the developer focus on the app. That's what the product is, and just talking about where it came from, and how it uses these other upstream technologies. Yes, and so we made a move on August 31, as you noted, and the motivation was the following: one is, we started seeing large organizations using Docker Desktop at scale.When I say ‘at scale,' not one or two or ten developers; like, hundreds and thousands of developers. And they were clamoring for capabilities to help them manage those developer environments at scale. Second is, we saw them getting a lot of benefit in terms of productivity, and choice, and security from using Docker Desktop, and so we stood back and said, “Look, for us to scale our business, we're at 10-plus million monthly active developers today. We know there's 45 million developers coming in this decade; how do we keep scaling while giving a free experience, but still making sure we can fund our engineers and deliver features and additional value?” We looked at other projects, Corey.The first thing we did is we looked outside our four walls, said, “How have other projects with free and open-source components navigated these waters?” And so the thresholds that you just mentioned, the 250 employees and the ten million revenue, were actually thresholds that we saw others put in place to draw lines between what is available completely for free and what is available for those users that now need to purchase subscription if they're using it to create value for their organizations. And we're very explicit about that. You could be using Docker for training, you could be using Docker for eval in those large organizations; we're not going to chase you or be looking to you to step up to a subscription. However, if you're using Docker Desktop in those environments, to build applications that run your business or that are creating value for your customers, then purchasing a subscription is a way for us to continue to invest in a product that the ecosystem clearly loves and is getting a lot of value out of. And so, that was again, the premise of this change. So, now to the root of your question is, so what's the reaction? We're very, very pleased. First off, yes, there were some angry voices out there.Corey: Yeah. And I want to be clear, I'm not trivializing people who feel upset.Scott: No.Corey: When you're suddenly using a thing that is free and discovering that, well, now you have to pay money for it, people are not generally going to be happy about that.Scott: No.Corey: When people are viewed themselves as part of the community, of contributing to what they saw as a technical revolution or a scrappy underdog and suddenly they find themselves not being included in some way, shape or form, it's natural to be upset, I don't want to trivialize—Scott: Not at all.Corey: People's warm feelings toward Docker. It was a big part of a lot of folks' personality, for better or worse, [laugh] for a few years in there. But the company needs to be sustainable, so what I'm really interested in is what has that reaction been from folks who are, for better or worse, “Yes, yes, we love Docker, but I don't get to sign $100,000 deals because I just really like the company I'm paying the money to. There has to be business value attached to that.”Scott: That's right. That's right. And to your point, we're not trivializing either the reaction by the community, it was encouraging to see many community members got right away what we're doing, they saw that still, a majority of them can continue using Docker for free under the Docker Personal subscription, and that was also intentional. And you saw on the internet and on Twitter and other social media, you saw them come and support the company's moves. And despite some angry voices in there, there was overwhelmingly positive.So, to your question, though, since August 31, we've been overwhelmed, actually, by the positive response from businesses that use Docker Desktop to build applications and run their businesses. And when I say overwhelmed, we were tracking—because Docker Desktop has a phone-home capability—we had a rough idea of what the baseline usage of Docker Desktops were out there. Well, it turns out, in some cases, there are ten times as many Docker Desktops inside organizations. And the average seems to be settling in around three times to four times as many. And we are already closing business, Corey.In 12 business days, we have companies come through, say, “Yes, our developers use this product. Yes, it's a valuable product. We're happy to talk to a salesperson and give you over to procurement, and here we go.” So, you and I both been around long enough to know, like 12 working days to have a signed agreement with an enterprise agreement is unheard of.Corey: Yeah, but let's be very clear here, on The Duckbill Group's side of things where I do consulting projects, I sell projects to companies that are, “Great, this project will take, I don't know, four to six weeks, whatever it happens to be, and, yeah, you're going to turn a profit on this project in about the first four hours of the engagement.” It is basically push button and you will receive more money in your budget than you had when you started, and that is probably the easiest possible enterprise sale, and it still takes 60 to 90 days most of the time to close deals.Scott: That's right.Corey: Trying to get a procurement deal for software through enterprise procurement processes is one of those things when people say, “Okay, we're going to have a signature in Q3,” you have to clarify what year they're talking about. So, 12 days is unheard of.Scott: [laugh]. Yep. So, we've been very encouraged by that. And I'll just give you a rough numbers: the overall response is ten times our baseline expectations, which is why—maybe unanticipated question, or you going to ask it soon—we came back within two weeks—because we could see this curve hit right away on the 31st of August—we came back and said, “Great.” Now, that we have the confidence that the community and businesses are willing to support us and invest in our sustainability, invest in the sustainable, scalable Docker, we came and we accelerated—pulled forward—items in our roadmap for developers using Docker Desktop, both for Docker Personal, for free in the community, as well as the subscribers.So, things like Docker Desktop for Linux, right? Docker Desktop for Mac, Docker Desktop for Windows has been out there about five years, as I said. We have heard Docker Desktop for Linux rise in demand over those years because if you're managing a large number of developers, you want a consistent environment across all the developers, whether they're using Linux, Mac, or Windows desktops. So, Docker Desktop for Linux will give them that consistency across their entire development environment. That was the number two most requested feature on our public roadmap in the last year, and again, with the positive response, we're now able to confidently invest in that. We're hiring more engineers than planned, we're pulling that forward in the roadmap to show that yes, we are about growing and growing sustainably, and now that the environment and businesses are supporting us, we're happy to double down and create more value.Corey: My big fear when the change was announced was the uncertainty inherent to it. Because if there's one thing that big companies don't like, it's uncertainty because uncertainty equates to risk in their mind. And a lot of other software out there—and yes, Oracle Databases I am looking at you—have a historical track record of, “Okay, great. We have audit rights to inspect your environment, and then when we wind up coming in, we always find that there have been licensing shortfalls,” because people don't know how far things spread internally, as well as, honestly, it's accounting for this stuff in large, complex organizations is a difficult thing. And then there are massive fines at stake, and then there's this whole debate back and forth.Companies view contracts as if every company behaves like that when it comes down to per-seat licensing and the rest. My fear was that that risk avoidance in large companies would have potentially made installing Docker Desktop in their environment suddenly a non-starter across the board, almost to the point of being something that you would discipline employees for, which is not great. And it seems from your response, that has not been a widespread reaction. Yes of course, there's always going to be some weird company somewhere that does draconian things that we don't see, but the fact that you're not sitting here, telling me that you've been taking a beating from this from your enterprise buyers, tells me you're onto something.Scott: I think that's right, Corey. And as you might expect, the folks that don't reach out are silent, and so we don't see folks who don't reach out to us. But because so many have reached out to us so positively, and basically quickly gone right to a conversation with procurement versus any sort of back-and-forth or questions and such, tells us we are on the right track. The other thing, just to be really clear is, we did work on this before the August 31 announcement as well—this being how do we approach licensing and compliance and such—and we found that 80% of organizations, 80% of businesses want to be in compliance, they have a—not just want to be in compliance, but they have a history of being in compliance, regardless of the enforcement mechanism and whatnot. And so that gave us confidence to say, “Hey, we're going to trust our users. We're going to say, ‘grace period ends on January 31.'”But we're not shutting down functionality, we're not sending in legal [laugh] activity, we're not putting any sort of strictures on the product functionality because we have found most people love the product, love what it does for them, and want to see the company continue to innovate and deliver great features. And so okay, you might say, “Well, doesn't that 20% represent opportunity?” Yeah. You know, it does, but it's a big ecosystem. The 80% is giving us a great boost and we're already starting to plow that into new investment. And let's just start there; let's start there and grow from there.This episode is sponsored by our friends at Oracle Cloud. Counting the pennies, but still dreaming of deploying apps instead of "Hello, World" demos? Allow me to introduce you to Oracle's Always Free tier. It provides over 20 free services and infrastructure, networking databases, observability, management, and security.And - let me be clear here - it's actually free. There's no surprise billing until you intentionally and proactively upgrade your account. This means you can provision a virtual machine instance or spin up an autonomous database that manages itself all while gaining the networking load, balancing and storage resources that somehow never quite make it into most free tiers needed to support the application that you want to build.With Always Free you can do things like run small scale applications, or do proof of concept testing without spending a dime. You know that I always like to put asterisks next to the word free. This is actually free. No asterisk. Start now. Visit https://snark.cloud/oci-free that's https://snark.cloud/oci-free.Corey: I also have a hard time imagining that you and your leadership team would be short-sighted enough to say, “Okay, that”—even 20% of companies that are willing to act dishonestly around stuff like that seems awfully high to me, but assuming it's accurate, would tracking down that missing 20% be worth setting fire to the tremendous amount of goodwill that Docker still very much enjoys? I have a hard time picturing any analysis where that's even a question other than something you set up to make fun of.Scott: [laugh]. No, that's exactly right Corey, it wouldn't be worth it which is why again, we came out of the gate with like, we're going to trust our users. They love the community, they love the product, they want to support us—most of them want to support us—and, you know, when you have most, you're never going to get a hundred percent. So, we got most and we're off to a good start, by all accounts. And look, a lot of folks too sometimes will be right in that gray middle where you let them know that they're getting away with something they're like, “All right, you caught me.”We've seen that behavior before. And so, we can see all this activity out there and we can see if folks have a license or compliance or not, and sometimes just a little tap on the shoulder said, “Hey, did you know that you might be paying for that?” We've seen most folks at the time say, “Ah, okay. You caught me. Happy to talk to procurement.”So, this does not have to be heavy-handed as you said, it does not have to put at risk the goodwill of the 80%. And we don't have to get a hundred percent to have a great successful business and continuing successful community.Corey: Yeah. I'll also point out that, by my reading of your terms and conditions and how you've specified this—I mean, this is not something I've asked you about, so this could turn into a really awkward conversation but I'm going to roll with it anyway, it explicitly states that it is and will remain free for personal development.Scott: That is correct.Corey: When you're looking at employees who work at giant companies and have sloppy ‘bring your own device' controls around these things, all right, they have it installed on their work machine because in their spare time, they're building an app somewhere, they're not going to get a nasty gram, and they're not exposing their company to liability by doing that?Scott: That is exactly correct. And moreover, just keep looking at those use cases, if the company is using it for internal training or if the company is using it to evaluate someone else's technology, someone else's software, all those cases are outside the pay-for subscription. And so we believe it's quite generous in allowing of trials and tests and use cases that make it accessible and easy to try, easy to use, and it's just in the case where if you're a large organization and your developers are using it to build applications for your business and for your customers, thus you're getting a lot of value using the product, we're asking you to share that value with us so we can continue to invest in the product.Corey: And I think that's a reasonable expectation. The challenge that Docker seems to have had for a while has been that the interesting breakthrough, revelatory stuff that you folks did was all open-source. It was a technology that was incredibly inspired in a bunch of different ways. I am, I guess, mature enough to admit that my take that, “Oh, Docker is terrible”—which was never actually my take—was a little short-sighted. I'm very good at getting things wrong across the board, and that is no exception.I also said virtualization was a flash in the pan and look how that worked out. I was very anti-cloud, et cetera, et cetera. Times change, people change, and doubling down on being wrong gains you nothing. But the question that was always afterwards what is the monetization strategy? Because it's not something you can give away for free and make it up in volume?Even VC money doesn't quite work like that forever, so there's a—the question is, what is the monetization strategy that doesn't leave people either resenting you because, “Remember that thing that used to be free isn't anymore? Doesn't it suck to be you?” And is still accessible as broadly as you are, given the sheer breadth and diversity of your community? Like I can make bones about the fact that ten million in revenue and 250 employees are either worlds apart, or the wrong numbers, or whatever it is, but it's not going to be some student somewhere sitting someplace where their ramen budget is at risk because they have to spend $5 a month or whatever it is to have this thing. It doesn't apply to them.And this feels like, unorthodox though it certainly is, it's not something to be upset about in any meaningful sense. The people that I think would actually be upset and have standing to be upset about this are the enterprise buyers, and you're hearing from them in what is certainly—because I will hear it if not—that this is something they're happy about. They are thrilled to work with you going forward. And I think it makes sense. Even when I was doing stuff as an independent consultant, before I formalized the creation of The Duckbill Group and started hiring people, my policy was always to not use the free tier of things, even if I fit into them because I would much rather personally be a paying customer, which elevates the, I guess, how well my complaints are received.Because I'm a free user, I'm just another voice on Twitter; albeit a loud one and incredibly sarcastic one at times. But if I'm a paying customer, suddenly the entire tenor of that conversation changes, and I think there's value to that. I've always had the philosophy of you pay for the things you use to make money. And that—again, that is something that's easy for me to say now. Back when I was in crippling debt in my 20s, I assure you, it was not, but I still made the effort for things that I use to make a living.Scott: Yeah.Corey: And I think that philosophy is directionally correct.Scott: No, I appreciate that. There's a lot of good threads in there. Maybe just going way back, Docker stands on the shoulders of giants. There was a lot of work with container tech in the Linux kernel, and you and I were talking before about it goes back to LPAR on IBMs, and you know, BS—Berkeley's—Corey: BSD jails and chroots on Linux. Yeah.Scott: Chroot, right? I mean, Bill Joy, putting chroot in—Corey: And Tupperware parties, I'm sure. Yeah.Scott: Right. And all credit to Solomon Hykes, Docker's founder, who took a lot of good up and coming tech—largely on the ops side and in Linux kernel—took the primitives from Git and combined that with immutable copy-on-write file system and put those three together into a really magical combination that simplified all this complexity of dependency management and portability of images across different systems. And so in some sense, that was the magic of standing on these giant shoulders but seeing how these three different waves of innovation or three different flows of innovation could come together to a great user experience. So, also then moving forward, I wouldn't say they're happy, just to make sure you don't get inbound, angry emails—the enterprise buyers—but they do recognize the value of the product, they think the economics are fair and straight ahead, and to your point about having a commercial relationship versus free or non-existing relationship, they're seeing that, “Oh, okay, now I have insight into the roadmap. Now, I can prioritize my requirements that my devs have been asking for. Now, I can double-down on the secure supply chain issues, which I've been trying to get in front of for years.”So, it gives them an avenue that now, much different than a free user as you observed, it's a commercial relationship where it's two way street versus, “Okay, we're just going to use this free stuff and we don't have much of a say because it's free, and so on and so forth.” So, I think it's been an eye-opener for both the company but also for the businesses. There is a lot of value in a commercial relationship beyond just okay, we're going to invest in new features and new value for developers.Corey: The challenge has always been how do you turn something that is widely beloved, that is effectively an open-source company, into money? There have been a whole bunch of questions about this, and it seems that the consensus that has emerged is that a number of people for a long time mistook open-source for a business model instead of a strategy, and it's very much not. And a lot of companies are attempting to rectify that with weird license changes where, “Oh, you're not allowed to take our code and build a service out of it if you're a cloud provider.” Amazon's product strategy is, of course, “Yes,” so of course, there's always going to be something coming out of AWS that is poorly documented, has a ridiculous name, and purports to do the same thing for way less money, except magically you pay them by the hour. I digress.Scott: No, it's a great surface area, and you're right I completely didn't answer that question. [laugh]. So—Corey: No, it's fair. It's—Scott: Glad you brought it back up.Corey: —a hard problem. It's easy to sit here and say, “Well, what I think they should do”—but all of those solutions fall apart under ten seconds of scrutiny.Scott: Super, super hard problem which, to be fair, we as a team and a community wrestled with for years. But here's where we landed, Corey. The short version is that you can still have lots of great upstream open-source technologies, and you'll have an early adopter community that loves those, use those, gets a lot of progress running fast and far with those, but we've found that the vast majority of the market doesn't want to spend its time cobbling together bits and bytes of open-source tech, and maintaining it, and patching it, and, and, and. And so what we're offering is an engineered product that takes the upstream but then adds a lot of value—we would say—to make it an engineered, easy to use, easy to configure, upgraded, secure, so on and so forth. And the convenience of that versus having to cobble together your own environment from upstream has proved to be what folks are willing to pay for. So, it's the classic kind of paying for time and convenience versus not.And so that is one dimension. And the other dimension, which you already referenced a little bit with AWS is that we have SaaS; we have a SaaS product in Docker Hub, which is providing a hosted registry with quality content that users know is updated not less than every 30 days, that is patched and maintained by us. And so those are examples of, in some sense, consumption [unintelligible 00:27:53]. So, we're using open-source to build this SaaS service, but the service that users receive, they're willing to pay for because they're not having to patch the Mongo upstream, they're not having to roll the image themselves, they're not having to watch the CVEs and scramble when everything comes out. When there's a CVE out in our upstream, our official images are patched no less than 24 hours later and typically within hours.That's an example of a service, but all based on upstream open-source tech that for the vast majority of uses are free. If you're consuming a lot of that, then there's a subscription that kicks in there as well. But we're giving you value in exchange for you having to spend your time, your engineers, managing all that that I just walked through. So, those are the two avenues that we found that are working well, that seem to be a fair trade and fair balance with the community and the rest of the ecosystem.Corey: I think the hardest part for a lot of folks is embracing change. And I have encountered this my entire career where I started off doing large-scale email systems administration, and hey, turns out that's not really a thing anymore. And I used to be deep in the bowels of Postfix, for example. I'm referenced in the SVN history of Postfix, once upon a time, just for helping with documentation and finding weird corner cases because I'm really good at breaking things by accident. And I viewed it as part of my identity.And times have changed and moved on; I don't run Postfix myself for anything anymore. I haven't touched it in years. Docker is still there and it's still something that people are actively using basically everywhere. And there's a sense of ownership and identity for especially early adopters who glom on to it because it is such a better way of doing some things that it is almost incomprehensible that we used to do it any other way. That's transformation.That's something awesome. But people want to pretend that we're still living in that era where technology has not advanced. The miraculous breakthrough in 2013 is today's de rigueur type of environment where this is just, “Oh, yeah. Of course you're using Docker.” If you're not, people look at you somewhat strangely.It's like, “Oh, I'm using serverless.” “Okay, but you can still build that in Docker containers. Why aren't you doing that?” It's like, “Oh, I don't believe in running anything that doesn't make me pay AWS by the second.” So okay, great. People are going to have opinions on this stuff. But time marches on and whatever we wish the industry would do, it's going to make its own decisions and march forward. There's very little any of us can do to change that.Scott: That's right. Look, it was a single container back in 2013, 2014, right? And now what we're seeing—and you kind of went there—is we're separating the implementation of service from the service. So, the service could be implemented with a container, could be a serverless function, could be a hosted XYZ as a service on some cloud, but what developers want to do is—what they're moving towards is, assemble your application based on services regardless of the how. You know, is that how a local container? To your point, you can roll a local serverless function now in an OCI image, and push it to Amazon.Corey: Oh, yeah. It's one of that now 34 ways I found to run containers on AWS.Scott: [laugh]. You can also, in Compose, abstract all that complexity away. Compose could have three services in it. One of those services is a local container, one of those services might be a local serverless function that you're running to test, and one of those services could be a mock to a Database as a Service on a cloud. And so that's where we are.We've gone beyond the single-container Docker run, which is still incredibly powerful but now we're starting to uplevel to applications that consist of multiple services. And where do those services run? Increasingly, developers do not need to care. And we see that as our mission is continue to give that type of power to developers to abstract out the how, extract out the infrastructure so they can just focus on building their app.Corey: Scott, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. If people want to learn more—and that could mean finding out your opinions on things, potentially yelling at you about pricing changes, more interestingly, buying licenses for their large companies to run this stuff, and even theoretically, since you alluded to it a few minutes ago, look into working at Docker—where can they find you?Scott: No, thanks, Corey. And thank you for the time to discuss and look back over both years, but also zoom in on the present day. So, www.docker.com; you can find any and all what we just walked through. They're more than happy to yell at me on Twitters at @scottcjohnston, and we have a public roadmap that is in GitHub. I'm not going to put the URL here, but you can find it very easily. So, we love hearing from our community, we love engaging with them, we love going back and forth. And it's a big community; jump in, the waters warm, very welcoming, love to have you.Corey: And we'll of course, but links to that in the [show notes. 00:32:28] Thank you so much for your time. I really do appreciate it.Scott: Thank you, Corey. Right back at you.Corey: Scott Johnston, CEO of Docker. I'm Cloud Economist Corey Quinn and this is Screaming in the Cloud. If you've enjoyed this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, whereas if you've hated this podcast, please leave a five-star review on your podcast platform of choice, along with a comment telling me that Docker isn't interested in at all because here's how to do exactly what Docker does in LPARs on your mainframe until the AWS/400 comes to [unintelligible 00:33:02].Scott: [laugh].Corey: If your AWS bill keeps rising and your blood pressure is doing the same, then you need The Duckbill Group. We help companies fix their AWS bill by making it smaller and less horrifying. The Duckbill Group works for you, not AWS. We tailor recommendations to your business and we get to the point. Visit duckbillgroup.com to get started.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

The online buying experience is always evolving, so it’s table stakes for companies to be on their toes and ready to adjust when the market tells them to. Especially when the company we are chatting about today was founded in 1948! But being prepared to adjust and actually making it happen are two different things. At DICK’S Sporting Goods, its customers, who are referred to as “athletes” are truly running the show, and Scott Casciato, who serves as the VP of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S, is the man who takes their needs and delivers a seamless experience to them via DICK’S ecommerce platform and throughout their 700 retail locations. And with their ecommerce sales increasing by 100% in 2020, Scott and his team have had to rethink many things like: how to scale up operations during peak seasons, why testing every iteration on the website is key, how to perfect the buy online pick up in-store experience, and determine how to take their athlete's feedback and transform it into a funnel for change. This episode brought back a lot of nostalgia for me, thinking about the days of wandering the aisles of Dick’s in my high school days looking for a new lacrosse stick or soccer shoes. So it was fun to hear about how much has changed, and  what investments the company has been making lately in creating the best customer experience possible for its athletes. Also, tune in to the end to hear Scott discuss the importance of great vendor relationships, how to future proof logistics, and the new in-store experiences that Dick’s is betting big on. Enjoy! Main Takeaways:The House Don’t Fall When the Bones are Good: Having a strong foundation is the most impactful thing a company can do to prepare for surges in traffic that might come during peak seasons or after highly-successful campaigns. You have to do the work, go through the load tests and constantly be improving the technology stack because there are no shortcuts when you are creating a scalable platform that can withstand anything you throw at it. With last year being a perfect case study to reflect on, dive into the data and pivot if needed so you’re ready for the surge!Bet On It … Then Test It: Building out an online experience that works requires constant testing. You can plan for outcomes and bet on how you think people will react, but until you test it, you can’t ever be certain. As Scott mentioned, following the path the data reveals can be surprising and sometimes opposite of what your intuition is telling you.Experiences For The Future: The shopping experience is going to continue to change, and the strongest companies are planning for the future by paying attention to trends and then creating experiences — both in-person and online — that will drive engagement with consumers and build trust and confidence in the company’s authority in the space. By investing early into an experience or a specific market, you set yourself up as the expert in that specialized vertical and become the retailer of choice for consumers.For an in-depth look at this episode, check out the full transcript below. Quotes have been edited for clarity and length.---Up Next in Commerce is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. Respond quickly to changing customer needs with flexible Ecommerce connected to marketing, sales, and service. Deliver intelligent commerce experiences your customers can trust, across every channel. Together, we’re ready for what’s next in commerce. Learn more at salesforce.com/commerce---Transcript:Stephanie:Hey everyone and welcome back to Up Next in Commerce, this is your host, Stephanie Postles, ceo@mission.org. Today on the show we have Scott Casciato, vice president of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S Sporting Goods. Scott, welcome.Scott:Thanks for having me. It's great to be here.Stephanie:I'm really excited to have you. So I have this deep love of DICK'S Sporting Goods because there was a location in my hometown, eastern shore of Maryland, which I feel no one even knows where that is on a map. But back in high school, I would go almost every week and just kind of peruse through the aisles and look for new lacrosse sticks and shoes. And I didn't really have much money, but I remember just loving the experience and being there probably for three hours with friends, just kind of hanging out. So I was so excited when I saw you guys on the lineup where I was, "Yes, something I know well."Scott:Was that your sport growing up, lacrosse?Stephanie:Lacrosse and soccer.Scott:Nice, nice. That's great.Stephanie:Deep love there. So I'd love to hear a bit about how you got into this industry, because you had a funny quote where you said, "I don't know how I really ended up here," and I'd love to start there, how did you become the vice-president of Omni Channel Fulfillment & Athlete Service at DICK'S Sporting Goods?Scott:It goes back... I spent the early part of my career in software, supply chain software, and kind of even on the sales side, then moved into the operational side and then got into management consulting and did a tour duty in the management consulting ranks. And I got introduced to the founder and co-founder of a company called ModCloth that I was with previously. And they were looking for somebody to run fulfillment and customer service. And I just said, I don't know anything about, I mean, I know supply chain, but I don't really know anything about direct consumer fulfillment at the time. And the founder of that business was, "Yeah, I know, but you're smart enough to figure it out." Right?Scott:So and I have a bent for really high growth, high speed businesses, and it just kind of the way I grew up in my career and that was a really great opportunity. So I did that and I spent five years there scaling that business really significantly, hyper growth phase and it was awesome. I learned a ton about fulfillment and service. And then about five years in, I had this great opportunity to come to DICK'S. And the thing that was really interesting to me is, the question was how can we build a great service organization for DICK'S Sporting Goods? I'm like, "Wow, if I could do it at a much smaller company, what would it be like to come to such a great brand and try to do it here?" And and we did, right?Scott:And so we spent a lot of time building that for the first four years of my time at DICK'S and then had an opportunity to take fulfillment on. So it's interesting that I have some of the aspects of that, that previous role that I had only, a scale that is much larger and just been very, very fortunate to be with such a great business. And it's been awesome to work with the team at DICK'S.Stephanie:Okay. So you are leaving ModCloth, I mean, that's like strictly ecommerce and then you're coming to this, I would say very omni-channel company. I mean, you have over 700 locations across the US, quickly moving to digital, at least over the past couple of years. Tell me a bit about what that transition was like?Scott:I mean, and at the same time we were really building... We were just starting our transformation to building our own technology. So it was a massive... It was basically rebuilding what we had already had from an ecommerce business perspective. And I think fundamentally a lot of the things that I came in and the tools that I had were relevant, right? How you scale a business. I mean, that stuff is somewhat the same. I think one of the biggest changes was or a few of them were one, just having more teammates that knew a lot of stuff that could really help and drive the initiatives and the progress forward, whereas in a much smaller company, right? It's you're wearing so many different hats and you're doing so many different things here.Scott:It was a shock to me to say, oh, there's somebody that can help with reporting or data analytics and help us with these answers. So that was awesome. And then I just think we were all learning, right? So we were learning what we needed. We were learning what we wanted to be in customer service, we were learning what we wanted to have in terms of digital capabilities. We were learning how to run that business as we were deploying new technology, right? So how do you do pricing online appropriately? I remember a lot of conversation. How do you display things? What's the right... How do you check? What's the right checkout flow? And then we had, as all businesses do, you have to make a lot of trade-offs because it may not be the most elegant thing right at the beginning, but we just got to get it up and running, right?Scott:And so having those conversations can be tough, right? Everybody, and especially our business, we just have this DNA where we just relentlessly improve, right? And so it's tough to launch something and know that it's not the perfect solution, right, and then making sure that you go back and you iterate and you keep going, right? We just did that for a long time. But it was a lot of fun and it's really tiring, but it was a lot of fun.Stephanie:So that's amazing. What was one of the maybe projects or things that you felt most strongly about that you got maybe the most pushback on that people are like, nope, that's not a good idea?Scott:I would say, well, we had a lot of conversation about how we were going to set up, for example, in my world, we were going to set up customer service. And we continue to evolve that. I think it wasn't that people were saying it's not how we want to do it, I think it was really more what I was saying about, we want to own more of that customer service experience, right? So we had always been outsourced. And as we moved, as we did the transition, and our previous outsourcer did a great job. And as we move to the next wave of that evolution, we decided we really need to keep an outsourced view in some form or fashion of customer service, but we really wanted to try to start to build our own, right, because we were, "Wonder what we could do on our own?"Scott:So this conversation about, [inaudible] how do you scale for the hockey stick effect that we have at holiday, right, while maintaining the great experience that we have? And we want to in source, but then we want to scale a holiday. We just had a lot of spirited debate about that. So that was part of that conversation.Stephanie:Very cool. And so are you guys kind of now balanced approach when it comes to customer service, depending on what's incoming and how to route it?Scott:Exactly. Right. So we have a team of internal service people that take various types of contacts, and then we have a few outsourced partners that we work extremely closely with. And we balanced the volume across there. And then at holiday time, we scale up across all. And so it's turned out to be... And we're measuring that experience relentlessly. So it's been a great symbiotic relationship, I think, across all three of those.Stephanie:Well, now that you've touched on holiday, I do kind of want to go into peak season and maybe talking about, I mean, you mentioned that you went through this big technology evolution and implementing new things to try and get to where you are now, what did that look like, especially when it comes to preparing for big surges? I mean, I saw your ecommerce I think went up 100% in 2020 or something, so you guys have had massive growth. What did it look like behind the scenes to prepare for that plus peak demand?Scott:I think it's been this... We're very happy that we started when we did, right? when you think about what happened over the past 12 months and what has happened in the ecommerce world and the growth that everybody has seen, we're fortunate that we started four years ago down this path. Because the foundation that we built really allowed us to scale this year really quickly. We've been through all the load tests dynamics that you go through at holiday, we've built the technology stack that can support the traffic that we knew that we were going to get. We've been through the trials and tribulations of how to test, what to test, where to find the failure modes, and we've got really talented people that work on that stuff every day. We've built controls internally to manage where things might not be working appropriately and to be able to balance that.Scott:And as you think about what happened last year, specifically with curbside, it is the example of, it took us four years to become an overnight success type of situation where [inaudible].Stephanie:[inaudible].Scott:Right.Stephanie:[inaudible]. Who knew?Scott:Totally. So I think it was scaling for holiday. We scale every year for holiday. I think last year was one that we didn't quite know, nobody knew what was really going to happen. But I think we over-prepared, and we executed an extremely successful holiday because we just had every... It was so great to see everybody so engaged in solving that challenge and really thinking through every aspect of what might happen in holiday from fulfillment through the web traffic through customer service. And we really came together as a team and figured out all the ways that things could go right and wrong and covered it all. And we had a great holiday season because of it.Stephanie:That's great. So what areas do you think businesses are maybe under-prepared? Is it in the fulfillment piece? Is it in customer service? What are some of the top pillars that you guys covered down on that maybe some people might not be fully prepared for?Scott:I think that we do a great job in measuring and really paying attention to the athlete experience across all measures, right? I think we've pivoted from, I think historically in most businesses have been in a place where you manage internally, right? You're managing things like conversion or traffic or speed to athlete and things like that, and to be the customer, traditional service levels and customer service. I think those are all important, but I think if you take the outside in view, right, and you're looking at things like how are we measuring the experience, what's happening to that customer when they're out there and they're buying from us? But are they buying from us again, right, as an articulation of their commitment to the brand?Scott:And then how do we influence that purchase behavior? And how do you think expansively about that in terms of not only the shopping experience online that they have, but the post-purchase, the delivery experience, the customer service experience, how are you really measuring that data and getting good information and causal information to figure out how you can drive really great lifetime value? And I think we do that and we're really starting to do that really well across our business. And we've gotten so much support for that outside in view, across our leadership team as well that it's become a real engine of thinking across our teams.Stephanie:I mean, it seems like that holistic view is really hard for a lot of companies to get to though. I mean, I hear about a lot of companies trying to consolidate their tech stack, marketing stack, put it all in one area that things actually are connected and you can have attribution and you can see the LTV. How do you guys think about having that view that allows you to make decisions?Scott:I mean, I think that it's philosophical at some level and don't get me wrong, it's hard because I think when you look at the business on a day-to-day basis, all retailers, right, especially those that are public are driving towards hard goals. We take a much longer term view of things generally across the business, which is really refreshing and great. And so it allows us to really make good decisions. When you think about what we're measuring, how we're investing, we're not investing, I mean, obviously we care about the quarter and we care about the year, right? Don't get me wrong, but I think we're making investments that are in the long-term interest of this brand and our customers. I think, we're a really large small business in that regard. And I think we've been able to energize our teammates to deliver that experience on the front line, but also make the investments on the back end of the house that allow us to do that.Stephanie:And I see you guys have been making some big tech investments. I saw, I think Commerce Hub, you did a multi-year deal with them. And I saw something about the vendor partner program that you have. We can kind of plug and play into a bunch of vendors and have an endless aisle. And I was, wow, that could be game changing to be able to pivot quickly and offer, get to the consumer, right, wherever they are, whatever they need, especially in times right now where it's very uncertain. So it seems tech is a big piece of that, towards that investment philosophy right now.Scott:It is.Stephanie:How are you figuring out what you need and how to put the proper pieces in place?Scott:I think we have over 500 vendors in our drop-ship program. And connecting to it has them, and understanding what the inventory is, and getting them to send us the right inventory, and then order information back and forth in real time is incredibly important, which is why we made the investment in Commerce Hub, it has been a great partner for us for a few years now. And it's easy to use. So I think that's that was great for that aspect of our business. I think our vendor relationships are super strong and we're fortunate that we have them because it allows us to be really creative in the way that we go to market. Scott:And I think we're also continuing to build great brands internally, right? And so if you think about, we just recently launched our first brand and it's been a great success so far. It's great stuff. We had got our [inaudible], if you haven't tried it, you should.Stephanie:I haven't. [inaudible].Scott:That's awesome. It's a partnership that we did with Carrie Underwood about six years ago, and it's quickly become our number two selling women's line.Stephanie:Wow. That's awesome.Scott:And then we launched our DSG brand a few years ago, or a year and a half ago, which is really a value-driven brand and with very high quality, right? So when you think about the continuum of our brands, we have very specific and different strategies and they're complex depending on what we're trying to achieve within a given brand or category within that brand. But I think we're fortunate that we've built such great lasting relationships, because again, I think it gets back to, we take a longer term view of things and we really, I think we treat our vendors as partners.Stephanie:Yep. So key, especially in this industry where so much is happening, so much is changing quick and people can get burned really quickly too.Scott:Right, right, right.Stephanie:It also seems being able to plug into a vendor system like that is important, especially around... It seems a lot of companies are doing private label type of things and launching their own brands. I mean, it's not fully reliant now on the big brands and being able to have that flexibility to pull people into your ecosystem that maybe could have never sold at a DICK'S Sporting Goods before, that seems amazing and really allows access in a way that wasn't here maybe five years ago.Scott:It really does. We're always looking for those bets to make with new and upcoming brands. And our vendor director job channel is a great way to sort of test some of these things. So that's definitely, you hit the nail on the head for us. It's a strategy that we actively have and it's nice because my team who manages that part of our business we'll work with our merchants to say, "What could our strategy be with the supplier or partner X?" Right? Some of these folks are small businesses that can't handle our volumes. So if we buy a little bit more, we can test some of them or we can test it in the vendor direct channel. So it's been a real tool for us.Stephanie:Testing's interesting too. I could see kind of doing AB test quickly and see if people like this product and if they like this one more, okay, here's what we're going to go. Maybe we'll circle back with you next year in a much less risky way to bring people in.Scott:We've gotten really good at testing and specifically on the site with how we're thinking about the experience online. And we test almost everything these days, right? I mean, there's some stuff that I think is just go do things, some go do things that we do. But I think generally speaking, we've really developed a muscle around building an experience and testing it and iterating on it to figure out what's really resonating with the athlete most. So everything from shopping experiences on our site all the way down through the conversion funnel to fulfillment, right? And speed and how we're communicating with our athletes.Scott:So I think we've learned so much, and I'm like constantly reminded when we get these, we all kind of make bets, right, when we launched these tests like what do think's going to happen? And I think I'm wrong so often, it's so important to test.Stephanie:Yep.Scott:Good. Because what you think the consumer is going to do they just don't. And even when you think about surveys, I think there's this everybody lies concept, right? And it's true...Stephanie:And depends on what state they're in or where they're at in the day.Scott:Right, right. So I think it's just so invaluable to us.Stephanie:And we do surveys on the show sometimes just to see who do you want on, and how am I doing? And it's, well, it's depends on probably where that person is, if they're happy, if they're sad, it could be different depending on the place that they're in.Scott:For sure.Stephanie:So what's an example of a test that you ran where you were so sure, you're like this one's going to win, everyone was kind of on board with one scenario winning and then the results come back and everyone's wrong?Scott:That's a good question. We just ran one recently that I did win on, which is the one that was top of mind for me coming into this. Let me talk about that one for a second. So the one we launched on same-day, we're trying to figure out what are our athletes appetite is for same-day services. And we did definitely get a lot of engagement on the test. I kind of thought it was going to be more than it was, but it was still interesting, right? So I think that's something that we're going to continue to have conversation on.Stephanie:They wanted it, the majority of the [inaudible]?Scott:I think they did. It wasn't as much as I would've thought, really.Stephanie:Because that's an interesting one that some people on the show said, people just want to know when it's getting there, they're okay if it's not same day, versus if it's more of a commodity product, you better get it to them the same day. And to kind of seems it depends what it is and how much delayed gratification someone can have on it, it depends, it seems.Scott:Yeah. Some of the tests that I think that we've run that have been less intuitive, I just think how products are set up on the site and how people search, right, and find products like you would think that sometimes when you put the best or most visible sort of notable product of the top search results, that's going to create a better conversion and sometimes it just doesn't, right? So it's really people come in I think with a lot of intent around how they're shopping and sometimes what you think is going to happen just doesn't because I think there's so many different ways that people shop.Stephanie:Yep. How do you think about shifting the website either, from what you learned from last year or when you're approaching peak season, are there certain key elements that you adjust knowing that maybe the consumer's are in a very different mindset than they were at any other time in history probably?Scott:Yeah. I think I can speak more to the way that we think about fulfillment in this regard. I always, I historically had thought, that's another example of what I thought was going to happen. I historically thought that during, for example, Black Friday weekend speed was really important, right? I need it, I want to get it fast. And it turns out that weekend in particular speed is not the most important, getting what you want is the most important, right? So getting the deal is the most important. I think it makes sense because most people are thinking, I've got three or four weeks that this thing can get to me. I'm not super concerned to get it next week, just to make sure that I get it, right?Scott:So that's one that we adjust in terms of making sure that we're really being honest with how we're going to fulfill. Thankfully we've got an extraordinarily resilient fulfillment network and we do really well in speed and but historically had been surprised as we've really measured that one over Black Friday weekend. It's really about getting the deal, not the speed.Stephanie:Versus Christmas when everyone's probably last minute shopping, it's probably opposite.Scott:Very different.Stephanie:Okay.Scott:Very different. And as you get into December and you get through towards the ground cutoffs and you get, depending on what's happening, the speed becomes a real issue. Last year was was nuts. I mean, FedEx was running commercials, right? They talked about the speed or buy early. And we definitely saw a little bit of a shift in terms of how people were thinking about buying.Stephanie:So how are you building up that resilience fulfillment network that you mentioned to be able to basically say I can offer anyone the endless aisle, we have unlimited of these, in one moment and then be, okay, now next month got to go, got to be there in three days or less type of scenario?Scott:I think you mentioned it when we kicked off the show, it was we've got over 700 fulfillment locations when you think about our store network, which is a blessing for us because it allows us to really, not only be closer to our athlete and get things there faster, but also allows for a lot of flexibility when... It's just load balancing, right? When you think about a business that has a couple of three, in my past one fulfillment center, when that thing gets backed up, or you have a labor problem or you have whatever the case, would be trucks that don't show up on the receiving dock or the outgoing dock, you're kind of backed up, right?.Scott:And so while that definitely happens across everybody's network, including ours, having all of these different nodes that are moving product out each and every really helps mitigate the risk. And so it also helps us, at peak time, it helps us staff up and get stuff out. And we have we've built a really sophisticated way to manage the way that orders are routing. So we're able to identify where we might have congestion points, for example, and try to proactively avoid those as we see those things happening, right? So we can move orders to one node or another, or block a node if we've got a weather issue or something, or we've got, in the fall when you have hurricanes in Florida, right, or in the Southeast, we're able to really change the way that our orders route to get product out of different places that aren't having those issues.Stephanie:And is that kind of done in the background where it's looking at all these different inputs and then kind of making decisions that you can come in and adjust if you need to, but it's already routing it for you in the background?Scott:Yeah. So part of it's automated part of it's people, right? And it's still a lot of people, right, washing the switches each day. But we've got a great team of people that are communicating, we're communicating out of our stores to my team and fulfillment. We're communicating from my team into stores and we're using the technology that we've built to really manage the capacity and the inventory across the entire network.Stephanie:It seems that is so important too you when you essentially have two business units when it comes to fulfillment, you've got your store locations with one set of data, inventory is probably very hard to track because it's always getting grabbed, it's always getting shipped out, and then you have just maybe a fulfilment center that's a whole different beast probably. How do you get to that consolidate view? Is that part of the backend tech that's kind of looking at it at a higher level, treating it all as one?Scott:It is and it's definitely complex for the reasons that you noted. And it creates, sometimes it can compromise how close we can get to the athlete if we think we've got a unit in Austin, Texas and we actually don't. The fortunate part is instead of canceling that order on you or that unit on you, it's going to go to maybe it'll go to a Dallas store, right? And we can still stay pretty close to you and get it to you. And we're also trying to look at things like, how do we keep packages together? Of course, anybody that's listening to this that manages freight will say, yep, really important from a cost perspective. And frankly, even from, as I mentioned earlier, that athlete experience, people want to get one box, right? I don't want to order three or four different things and get three or four different boxes. And sometimes that's unavoidable, but we're trying everything we can to not let that happen.Stephanie:Oh, blessing.Scott:Totally, right?Stephanie:I get, one company I'm not going to mention their name, they will send a can of soup, anything a bone broth. I mean, it's in these little bags and they just come one at a time. I'm like, "Oh my gosh, I just would have rather just gone to the store and picked it up myself than getting random of one item at a time."Scott:It's so wonderful when the customer experience need and the business need align, right? So when you think about, nobody wants to ship more packages to you, right? We want to get it to you, we want to get to you fast and we want to get it to you in one package. And that's also a great experience for you. It's the same thing we talk about with customer service, which is a traditional metric that people manage as average handle time, right? How long are [inaudible]? And I'm so careful, we collectively are so careful with this metric because it can be so disastrous to the teammate that's on the other end of the phone if they think they're being managed to a handle time, right? I don't want to just get you off the phone, however, and you need to use it for all kinds of different scheduling and making sure you have enough people on the team.Scott:But what's really aligned is generally people want to get to an answer pretty quickly also, right? I want to have an efficient, valuable use of my time. I want to get to an answer and then I want to move on with my day. So that's another example of where if we can do it right and align those desires, we're going to create an awesome experience.Stephanie:The unintended consequences, pizzas is such a tricky thing with thinking about designing roles and KPIs. I mean, I'm doing it right now. I'm thinking about sales and building a sales team and being like, oh wait, this might incentivize bad behavior.Scott:You got to really think about it, right?Stephanie:You just think really strategically about it.Scott:The outcome or the impact is very different than the intent in some cases.Stephanie:Yep. Are there any external inputs right now that you think companies aren't preparing for? I'm thinking about the algorithms that are kind of running everything behind the scenes when it comes to your fulfillment and things like that. Is there anything that you guys are watching now that maybe you weren't watching a couple of years ago and letting it help influence how things are routed or how things are kind of being redirected, anything like that?Scott:I mean, I think we're constantly trying to get to be more precise, and we're very fortunate that if everything goes right, we can get you an order really, really quickly. So we're really trying to pay attention to, where are things not going perfectly and we've called this thing the perfect order, what's our perfect order, right? And how do we get more of those? So we're spending a lot of time thinking about how we can perfect our fulfillment network. And I mean, it is, as you can imagine, just an infinite number of variables that dictate how this thing goes. But we're working a lot on that. I do not think that...Stephanie:[inaudible] like local stuff, because that's something that kind of came to mind. You're paying attention to weather and higher level things are you down in the weeds of, okay, well there's a festival this week here so that means... Is it that [inaudible].Scott:It can be. I mean, for example, when we're doing a hot market event, so Super Bowl, NCAA Tournament, they're national events, but their inventories largely local, right? So we're really paying attention to what the traffic is doing and the inventory is doing it at those local levels for sure.Stephanie:I'd love to talk about events a bit because I know that's a focus is the athlete experience online and in person as well. And I saw that you guys are opening more retail locations. You're opening, I think I saw a golf center, I soccer center, I mean, these full on experiences. And I'd love to hear how you guys are thinking about that.Scott:I'm glad you mentioned that we're really proud. We just opened recently the House of Sport up in Victor, New York, which is an expression of what we think the future can be for DICK'S Sporting Goods. And it's really an experiential retail location. So you can go in there, obviously we've got golf simulators and we've got fitting in there. We've got rock walls to climb. We've got an outdoor fitness field where we're doing things and we're engaging the community in different ways. So we're running clinics and figuring out how we can get local teams into their... Engaging in the community in this way has been a part of our brand since 1948, right? So I think, if you read the story of DICK'S and how we were involved in the Binghamton New York community, when the business was founded, it'll give you a sense for why this is important to us.Scott:And we just believe that, we say it all the time, we believe that sports makes people better. So how do we think about engaging in the community where we're at? We've done this forever in community marketing, and you see how we donate equipment to local teams and so forth. This is kind of another evolution of that, where we think we can make a big impact, we can change the way that people think about retail. And I think it'll quickly get to how do we merge the online and the brick and mortar or traditional retail experience? So I think that's a place that is really exciting to us right now.Stephanie:I was just thinking about, how do you create, you have a view where you know this person came in to this event and they were using the golf simulator, and they really liked this club. And then they either bought in store or maybe four weeks later they ended up online and bought the one that they were using? Do you feel you're moving in a direction where you're going to have that viewpoint? And it's not a hard time to get there.Scott:Yeah, I think we're getting there. I think we're really focused on data and analytics, right? And so I think our ability to stitch together these experiences, we're building that muscle. I don't think that we're totally there yet, but we've got really smart people that are thinking about this. And I think we're moving in that direction because that's the key. We're not really worried about what channel you buy in, right? I think it's more about, are we the retailer of choice for you, right? And however that experience, the experience that we can build for that, it's important to measure it because then I think it unlocks the investment in the targeted areas that are going to drive more of that for our athletes. So I think that's where we're really focused.Stephanie:Have you thought about creating essentially kind of a guide shop, but you have the soccer experience or something, and then just a small shop where maybe you can look at a few other things, but then essentially you're going back online to order whatever you played with and got to experiment with, or are you doing full on retail location as always, and then often this area we're doing our experience center?Scott:We haven't done really pop up experiences, guide shop experiences like that. We're moving more towards, how do we create a more scaled experiential experience in store and then how do we measure that in terms of who might go online to buy.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative). I love that. I'm excited to see... I need to visit one of those stores, especially the soccer one. I mean, I don't know what it's going to be happening there, but I want to be there.Stephanie:I want to hear, which I feel you'll have a great answer for is what are you all most excited about right now over the next one to two years? What are you most passionate about?Scott:We're excited about a lot of things. And as usual, we have a very full plate. So I think things that we've already deployed that we'll continue to refine, things like our curbside program or a buy and pickup in store program for online, we're really excited about that. That's got a long runway of improvement, enhancement, and creativity that's going to be placed into that program. We are really excited about this merger of... I'm really excited about the merger of stores and online specifically around becoming a trusted advisor to our athletes. So if you think about the breadth of the teammates that we have, and when you walk into our stores or you talk to our people online, everybody's got a passion, right? Your passion is lacrosse and soccer.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Scott:How do we think about unlocking that potential, right, in terms of then being able to help our customer, whether that customer is buying first player pair of soccer cleats for their son, to getting ready to play club soccer, to getting ready to go off and play soccer at a D1 level or beyond, right? So how do we look at that continuum of expertise and really become that trusted advisor, both online and in our stores? And I think that is incredibly exciting venture. And we do it well today. I think there's an opportunity to do it even better. So we're really excited about that. We're really excited about the assortment, right, that we're going to continue to launch online. I think it's going to be differentiated. I think it's going to keep our position in the market really strong.Scott:So I think the product that we put in there, the expertise that we put in there is going to be differentiated in the market, right? And that I think is probably more incremental and more incremental expression to the core business. And then we're going to continue to press. Game Changer has been a great business for us for years. And that team is great. And they continue to build a technology that service the baseball market. But we're always looking for different ways that we can expand or innovate across the industry.Stephanie:I love that, you know what? We need like, what do you do after college? I always think about that and I'm like, I loved playing sports. But then you start working, and then you have kids, and then you're, I still want to play, but how do I get back into it? And something is missing there, Scott. [inaudible].Scott:No, but I love... So that's who we want. That's another sort of persona that we really want to love to serve in our stores. Because I'm one of them.Stephanie:I'm your person.Scott:Right.Stephanie:We're the people.Scott:We're the people. And I think what we want to be able to do, I love talking about this. I think in our stores and online, our ability to listen and inspire, right, how do we help you meet that goal, right? "Hey, I'm doing a couch to 5k first time. I'm starting to get active." Or, for me, the 5'8 guy that always had a dream of the NBA that never came to fruition because my vertical is about that high. I still play. I want to make sure that I can get all the gear that I need to be competitive, right, or to achieve my personal best.Scott:So I love the fact that we can really positively impact people's lives in that way. And I think we want to make... I would love to make sure personally that anybody that walks into our store and knows that we're not just a sporting goods retailer, right? I think we want to make sure that we're helping, we want to facilitate you achieving your dreams. And then we talk a lot about that internally. So if we can translate or transmit that feeling to our athletes, I think that's really powerful.Stephanie:And also makes me think about creating custom leagues too, where it's, this is a different kind of league. It's not the traditional school. It's not even people creating their own volleyball leagues. It's we are a part of this. We're making sure that this can happen for people who struggle to even find those networks. I mean, I know back when I was in DC, I looked for where's some other women who play lacrosse? I don't really want to play with guys who are going to be checking me and I count find it, super hard to find. I mean, it's easy to find some sports in a community setting, but it's very hard to find people in certain other sports settings.Scott:You're right. There's a social, I don't want to, careful to say social network, but there is this idea of how do I plug into people that are me within a certain geographical area, right? That would be interesting. That's really interesting. Thanks for that one. Let me...Stephanie:Take it back to leadership. We just need a parenting kit. It's, here's everything you need so that we can go play our sports and then your kids are entertained. They get many lacrosse sticks. You go there and then I'll go off on my own so I can actually play, give me the kid.Scott:I love that idea.Stephanie:I want to think like such parents. Anyone who's not a parent is probably, "What are y'all talking about right now?"Scott:What are you talking about? Yep.Stephanie:Yep. All right. So let's shift over to the lightning round. Lightning round is brought to you by Salesforce Commerce Cloud. This is where I ask a question and you have a minute or less to answer. Are you ready?Scott:I think so.Stephanie:Okay. So I'm sad, I haven't asked this yet and don't know this, but what is your favorite sport?Scott:Basketball.Stephanie:Oh, nice.Stephanie:And who's your favorite sports team?Scott:It's always been the Chicago Bulls since back in the day, which is probably blasted me because I live in Pittsburgh. So to not say football and the Pittsburgh Steelers is a problem.Stephanie:You'd probably get egged.Scott:Probably. But they're close second.Stephanie:That's good. What is the nicest thing anyone's done for you?Scott:Oh, wow. I'm going to struggle. I'm going to go to my kids. I think my kids being, this is going to sound so cheesy, but it's so serious. The way that my kids treat other people with respect and kindness, I think is the thing that comes to mind for me first. And I know that's probably not the answer that you would normally get.Stephanie:Nope, I like it.Scott:To me that's pretty important. So I'm really proud of them. And I think that's probably the best thing that somebody could do for me.Stephanie:I love that. There's so much you can learn from kids. I think about that all the time. So I'm the person who is here for those cheesy kind of kid answers. You're in the right space. What's one thing you don't know that you wish you understood better?Scott:American history comes to mind?Stephanie:That's a good one.Scott:I don't think that's on topic, but that's the first one that comes to mind.Stephanie:When you want to feel more joy, what do you do?Scott:It's going to sound crazy. I tell people, thank you.Stephanie:Mm-hmm (affirmative).Scott:Right. So I just believe that there's a lot... I get a lot of energy from being grateful, right? And so that's what I do. If I'm really feeling a little down or if I'm really stressed or some of the times the way that I work out and I get the endorphins mode going, that's one way to do it, and the other way is to be grateful for things. So I feel that's the way I get a lot of energy.Stephanie:I love that. All right. And then the last one, I mean, it seems you guys are very much ahead on a lot of things within the ecosystem. What do you do to stay on top of the trends? Are you watching other companies? Are you reading things, what are you doing to stay on top?Scott:I think it's a combination of experiencing and reading. I don't read nearly enough, it's hard, right? There's so much the content that comes out and not enough time. So I'm trying to just experience things out in the wild right? I'm talking to a lot of people, whether it's parents at a game or if it's just my own experiences online, and I'm trying to translate that to what's happening and why companies would do things a certain way. And then my team is doing the same thing. So I think we're trying to stay close. We're trying to stay close that way and certainly reading and engaging in conversations like this also kind of help.Stephanie:Good. That's awesome. Well, cool. Well, Scott, thank you so much for joining us. It was really fun to hear all about what you guys are up to. Where can people find more about DICK'S Sporting Goods and find you?Scott:I think www.dickssportinggoods.com. For the story of Public Lands and Golf Galaxy, and you can find me at LinkedIn, on LinkedIn.Stephanie:Amazing. Thank you so much.Scott:Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great time.

Scott and Michelle offer these practices to keep in mind at any stage of a health journey. Mindfulness. Take just a few moments to be present and distraction-free. Don't overcomplicate the journey. Overthinking and overcontrolling quickly lead to anxiety and depression. Taking small, practical steps will get you where you need to be. Share your journey with others, but not everybody. Close friends can keep you accountable and motivated. But your journey is intimate and won't always be pretty.  Have the right reason. There is something intrinsically motivating you to live a better life. Don't confuse that with the urge to suddenly identify as a health nut. Living in the past isn't productive. Your body changes, and your lifestyle changes. What worked then might not work now. Take this into account when evaluating what exercise is right for you and what you expect your body to do and look like. Limit social media. It's a time suck. Sleep well and take time to relax. The hours between 11-3 AM are our best opportunity for quality sleep. Don't skip it. Let go of toxic relationships. You can't easily avoid people, but you can let certain people in closer while others remain at a distance. Setting personal boundaries with even your loved ones will lead to healthier relationships. TranscriptMichelle: Welcome to the Totality Living Well podcast where we probe into the nitty-gritty aspects of health: the good, the offbeat, and even the controversial things that aren't always discussed. Whether you've had a long-standing curiosity or simply want to know more about a topic, we're here to explore the solutions and answers to empower you in body, mindset, and spirit.Scott: Hey guys, Scott and Michelle Williams here. Healthy living consultants, certified in nutrition fitness and neuromuscular massage.Michelle: We're parents, business owners, and understand the challenges that life can bring with keeping the elements of your own health on track while ensuring that the kids, parents, pets, and loved ones in your life are also taken care of with the resources they need for health and longevity.Scott: We're so glad you joined us.Michelle: Seeking to live a life of health for many entails acknowledging a specific need, setting a goal for improvement, and then implementing the necessary steps to reach that goal. But that's not always as easy as it sounds is it, especially when it comes to all of the factors pertaining to real life. If it were that simple, then the health and wellness industry wouldn't be as big as it is. Welcome everyone to our podcast today. I am Michelle Williams, along with my fabulous husband Scott Williams from Totality Living Well. And today we're going to be addressing the one issue that can trip us up as we aspire to reach any health goal, or really any goal. And that is energy drains.Scott: That's right. The topic needs to be discussed because as health professionals, we've seen so many people out there that really and truly want to make a change. And they come to us and they're so excited about doing that. And so many things start to get in their way, and they just don't understand why they cannot get to that point.Michelle: So, the last time we left you with some tips on how to really get cruising on your health journey. And why don't you recap those for us?Scott: Practicing mindfulness in your life is such an important mindset on this. It's not just about your body, it's about your body, mind, and your spirit. Self-care is vital for us: to take care of others, we've really truly got to be able to take care of ourselves to begin with. And don't overcomplicate the journey. The journey can be simple, you just have to get moving, you don't need to assess every single thing that you see in a magazine or everything everybody else is doing.Michelle: And that leads to this valuable insight that we want to share is how to reach those goals without the distractions and those things that can deplete our journey. So, we've got a long list of sneaky little traps that can be avoided, if we know what they are. And we're just going to share those with you and just go ahead and dig in.Scott: Sounds good.Michelle: Okay, so the first one, I think it just goes in right with that third tip of don't overcomplicate the journey, and that's overthinking the journey. I guess just any client we've really worked with who gets kind of caught up in—you know, I'm guilty of doing this myself: individuals who really want to control the journey ahead, and one way to kind of think that they can do that is by overthinking. And ultimately, when I started thinking about this, I started thinking about overthinking really kind of has a couple of different underlying reasons. One is maybe a lack of organization. Two would be a lack of confidence or having self-doubt about the journey ahead, and then not fully having a defined goal or being fully committed to that goal. And then when I started thinking about that a little bit more I thought about overthinking maybe is actually something that stems from worry or desperation to really want to accomplish that goal. So, it's not really something that's counterproductive for us, and when you think about it, it's more of a mind issue. So, that effort to control the whole journey ahead by overthinking is really the one thing that makes you lose control, and it just totally self-sabotage is the entire thing. So, basically, just keep it simple.Scott: Right, exactly. Because people do come in with great goals. And I think that what they're looking for is they're looking for validation in that goal; they want you to validate what they're trying to achieve. Sometimes it might not be their actual goal, but they think, “Oh, but this is going to make me healthy and/or this is going to make my professional that I'm working with think that I'm on the right track.”Michelle: Like, I'm truly invested in that.Scott: Exactly. And sometimes you have to take a step back and figure out realistically, it's like, how do you look at the baby steps of this goal and come back to kindergarten as opposed to running as a senior. And really, and truly taking the steps to go level by level to achieve those goals.Michelle: I think one of the things that goes along with it, and it's not really part of the notes that we had kind of things that we wanted to discuss today, but also overtalking about something; just talking incessantly about, “I'm going to be a vegetarian,” “I'm a vegetarian,” “Oh, my new vegetarian diet.” I mean, just for example.Scott: Oh, yeah.Michelle: And then just that constant talk, talk, talk, it's almost like there's a way to have that proper accountability, but there's also a way that people try to convince themselves and they're not really realizing that they're convincing themselves. So, I think that overtalking goes right in hand-in-hand with overthinking.Scott: I think so too, and I think what happens is, people need to keep that to one or two people that can actually really help them kind of just grab forward and go with that, but not talk to everybody about it. Because everybody just gets tired of hearing it because all they want to see is, “Okay, you're doing that. So, what's the result? What's this look like?” You know, they look at you and go, “Well, you're a vegetarian, or you've done this, or you've done that. What was your goal truly about? And are you really achieving it, or do you look the same as you did a month ago when I saw you?”Michelle: I think one of the things, too, is like, if someone establishes a goal and it's not for the right reasons to accomplish something, but rather to make it an identity, that's when you see a lot of that happen. People are kind of wanting to establish something to be known for.Scott: Right, exactly. Because everybody wants to be popular in the public. Everybody wants to be known for something. And sometimes that is lack of what they had as a kid as far as the compliments from people as a child, and they're still trying to feed that back into their lives.Michelle: Yeah. And when we do start working with clients for their health journey, we really do assess where they are in that whole goal-setting place in life because there are different phases: there's that pre-contemplation, and then there's the contemplation, all the way up to action. And so when someone's finally in that action phase, they're still not overthinking. So, I think that that's probably a kind of a good sign of not being fully ready to move forward.Scott: It is truly. And that helps them really assess because sometimes they think they come in, and they're like, “Yep, here's the money, let's go.” And they think by hiring you, or by having someone holding you accountable, it's going to just flip a switch, and all of a sudden—and their goals are going to just happen magically. And really, and truly, we got to step back and see why.Michelle: Another big energy drainer that I see with people who do overthink is living in the past. And I know that you can speak to this just the same, where we meet with people—and let's just say middle-agers, okay. Let's just say somebody who had a great football career when they were teenagers, and they ate the house down, and they can't understand what the age of 45 they're gaining all this weight. They never had that problem before. Well, are you moving the way that you moved when you were a teenager, you know, to warrant eating that? Another thing would be from ladies, I hear, “Well, I know exactly what to do. I'm just here for the accountability, and what I've done has worked in the past.” And I kind of laugh to myself, “Well, if it worked in the past, why are we here?” Because if you lost that weight before you had children, and you were in your 20s, and you knew what to do, and you were radically going for it, and then, later on, you have children, and you haven't lost that baby weight and it's been 15 years, since you've lost that baby weight, what worked then, chances are it's not going to work now. And so we have to always be mindful and reminding ourselves and other people that what has always worked doesn't always work. I know personally, there are times in my life, I guess, I found myself wanting to detoxify from childhood, processed meats and things like that, where going vegetarian was a great thing for me. Ultimately, going vegan was nice for a little while. And I had my children and Mama wanted some meat, and so that meat-eating diet kind of came back and it was right for me at that time. And as a nutrition specialist coaching other people, one thing that we can say is that there's not a one size fits all approach to diet and to exercise, movement, that kind of thing. And you think about it: babies have a totally different requirement, from a nutrition standpoint than a toddler. A toddler's got a totally different need than a teenage boy playing football. That teenage boy playing football has a totally different dietary need than someone who's going to be hitting the big three-oh for their milestone birthday. And that person is still going to be different from what a senior needs. So, we all need different things at different times. And living in the past, it's a comfort to say, “I've been there, I've accomplished, I knew it worked,” but the mind needs new things, the body needs new approaches based on what our resources are, what our routines are, what the current body is, what we have and that kind of thing. I know, you've seen that too.Scott: Exactly. When I was in my teens I worked out, I played sports. When I got into my 20s, I started mountain biking. At that point in time, you go to mountain bike ride and burning and 3500 calories a day. And I could eat like a house, and realistically, it wasn't a big thing. Then I rolled into my 30s, kind of got away from that kind of conditioning, went back into the gym and started a little bit more about building muscle, and then I had to retain correct nutrition, and not just caloric density, to actually rebuild the body that I wanted to. And then in my 40s I started looking ahead, and all of a sudden, all the active things that I did, my joints weren't exactly wanting to do it as much anymore, and then you should have a shift of metabolism. And you have to realistically figure out what is your goal right now because what you're doing in your 40s is not what you were doing in your 20s. You have to have that reality check; you're not going to have what you had in your 20s, but how do you make your best 40s?Michelle: Right, and a 50-year-old cannot look like their 20-year-old self. It's just, it doesn't matter how many times they go to have their hair done, or go under the knife, or have all these aesthetic treatments, it's a different body, and it is about embracing what you have to work with, in the current moment.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: So, I guess I would just say, to remember that today's a new day; yesterday's the past and just don't go back. Just leave it in the past.Scott: Leave it in the past.Michelle: Yeah, set your new goals for the day ahead.Scott: Right, and just make sure that you're—just find that mindset that you're good with that. And I think that's what people stumble with is you've got to look at yourself and go, hey, I am great where I am, and I can be the best 40-year-old, 50-year-old, 60-year-old that I can be out there, versus some of the people you see out there that are in your same age range. One of the big things that we talk a little bit about as far as time and things that take away from, I want to talk a little bit about social media. Everybody wants to get on social media; social media, it's just such a trap out there. And realistically, you spend 10 minutes here, you spend 20 minutes, there, you spend 30 minutes there, and all of a sudden you say, “Well, I just don't have time to go to the gym anymore,” or, “I don't have time to eat right,” or, “I don't have time to sit and read and meditate a little bit.” If you look at some of those trackers out there, you can actually really tell what you're doing with each thing that you have on your phone, you can see how much time you're wasting.Michelle: It's crazy. I mean it, it becomes addictive.Scott: It does.Michelle: I mean, not only to the kids but adults too. I can log in not even realizing that I'm logging in to check my feed. I don't even think that I'm doing it; I'm doing it subconsciously. And I can look down and think that maybe 5 or 10 minutes has gone by, and it's been an hour plus.Scott: Right.Michelle: And I just read feeds. Boy, I could have really read a good chapter in a book. [laugh].Scott: Yeah, getting caught up. Or I could have actually got up and went for a walk, and then got some sunshine.Michelle: Yeah, no kidding. I agree; social media is a huge energy trap. And I think just checking email also, it can be a big distraction, too.Scott: Yeah, because we have so much junk email out there. If everything could filter out all of the junk, and you could truly just get the true emails you need each day, that would be great.Michelle: Yeah, I think it's the same thing. I think just setting designated times and timelines for looking at those kinds of things is a huge help.Scott: Yeah. And then beyond that, it's just like, we spend so much time doing some of that stuff, we stay up too late. We stay up too late on social media, we stay up too late in emails, we stay up too late watching TV, some people stay up too late playing video games. And when you stay up too late, you throw off your entire next day.Michelle: Well, especially when it's time and again. Because okay, yes, there's going to be the big ball game that comes on, and that's going to run late into the night, and we want to see that; we don't want to record that; we don't want to watch what's more fun to watch live. I mean, certain things need to take place in real-time.Scott: Oh, exactly.Michelle: And kids might have sports. And a lot of those times we know from when our kids were in cross country. We didn't get home until 10 o'clock at night, sometimes. It was a school night.Scott: It was crazy.Michelle: It was. So, I mean there are times when we have to kind of make the exception, but I do think it builds up, like what you're saying. And then that really wears the body down and the mind down.Scott: It really does because you actually then to start the next day, you want to eat everything that you can because your body is deprived of what it needed for rest. So, now it's going to try to replace it with calories.Michelle: Yeah, it messes up that leptin and ghrelin hormone balance of when you are hungry and how full you are, and those just get really whacked out when you don't get that sleep. And then too, I have learned from multiple sources time and again at different seminars and from various educators, that the time period that you can sleep between 11 p.m. and 3 a.m. are valid for regenerating the body, resetting the body. So, yes, you can go to bed a little later than what you want to be, if you can stay asleep and get good quality sleep in that little window of time, you're at least doing yourself a favor.Scott: Definitely. But four hours sleep isn't quite enough for the night.Michelle: Yeah, not for the norm. I mean, there are some rare individual, I guess, that can get by with that, but that's certainly not me.Scott: Me either. [laugh].Michelle: And we have taken a couple of supplements before that have helped us. Obviously, we recommend everybody check with their health care provider and professional before doing anything, but we've had great experience with melatonin and [00:15:58 methionine], which is an amino acid, just bringing calm to the body, helping it turn off. Soaking in a hot bath with lavender and Epsom salt.Scott: Yeah, a lot of relaxation type things before bed.Michelle: And turning lights out. Turning lights and electronics out and just, you know, unplugging.Scott: Right. Easy, soft music, something just that relaxes you down.Michelle: Right. And you were saying that it does throw off the way we eat. So, that brings us to our fifth energy drainer. And that is living on a poor diet. I mean, you think about it, you're tired, you're running late for work, you haven't prepared anything for lunch, or even breakfast and you're going by the drive-through. First thing you're going to do is grab that fast sandwich, that biscuit, whatever, and that's not really giving you quality nutrition. So, over time, your body's getting dead food; it's getting processed food, and it can't regenerate by its divine design. It's one thing to grab that one meal on a quick whim, but to make that your lifestyle, that starts to add up, and that starts to make you feel pretty lousy. And when I teach kids, one of the slides that I have is garbage in, garbage out. So, what you take in, that's what you're going to be putting back out. And a lot of times, that's really lousy energy—Scott: It truly is.Michelle: —you know, and irritability, and not being able to be on your game. So, I even use that with the chefs that I teach at the college for the Culinary Institute. They want to know, why is healthy food, all that important? And I'm like, let's just rewind down to the basics: it's an energy drainer. You don't feel good, and you're not living that quality life.Scott: Yeah, exactly. It's one of those things that, if you were around from different decades, as we were, and if you can realize the fact that why can they still sell a hamburger for the same price they did when we were kids.Michelle: Or the ice cream sandwich that never melts on the sidewalk. [laugh].Scott: [laugh].Michelle: That's really weird.Scott: And we watched the kids get fast food type things around here that you look in a cup and it's still there the next day, and you're like, why is that still in a full form?Michelle: Yeah, that's really freaky. You know that Twinkie test, I've never taken the Twinkie test but apparently, they don't rot at all, they're so loaded. [laugh]. I remember eating Twinkies when I was a little girl. I was given one to—my mom gave it to appease me before breakfast, so I wonder if those Twinkies are still with me? Well, basically getting good fresh enzymes, and that means the colors of the rainbow that are grown in nature your red, orange, yellow, green, blue, fruits, vegetables and get those in when you can even if you do have to merge that with foods that aren't ideal, and they're more of the grab-and-go if you can grab that salad or even a juice, that's better for you, getting those life enzymes.Scott: Definitely. Exactly. When we go into another step of life as far as things that actually drain us as well, and we started looking at relationships. Being out there, and toxic relationships, and negative people, and—Michelle: No, not in this day and age. [laugh].Scott: And just the negative side of everything. You look at—if you turn on the news, everybody's hating on everybody. And it's like, when did we start becoming such a society of hate, and where did the love go? And so, the more that you can separate yourself from those types of things, the better that you do with life if you begin your day with more positivity.Michelle: There's this book that I have been reading, and it's pretty neat. It's called Your Body Believes Every Word You Say. And this lady was really ill, and she couldn't figure out how to get well. And then she started changing the way that she thought and the way that she spoke and her body responded, and it's a pretty cool story. I don't know who the author is, but it's a pretty good book. And it's true. It's like, the words that you are around and the words that you speak, they do either make or break you. And when you are around that negativity—and sometimes you can't help it. Sometimes you work with someone, and you see someone every day and they're just really a downer. But that's where you have to kind of dig deep and control the way you respond.Scott: Exactly. And when you get yourself together, the more you are in tune with your life and the more balanced you are, the more that you will start to attract. I was telling Michelle this, that when you do that, you're going to become a magnet. And people magnetize towards you that are people that love you, and people magnetize [00:20:29 who are do] people that hate you. And the responses are so different. You get people that love you, and realistically, you can't get away from them because they want more and more from you, and you get people that hate you, and they'll snub you, and walk away, or talk bad about you.Michelle: Yeah, you've kind of said, too, that when you start that positive journey in making strides for your health or trying to establish healthier habits in your lifestyle, you get people who kind of want to pull from you because they want a piece of that too. And you're a little bit stronger than they are, or you've got people who kind of… they're not so happy because it, maybe, makes them aware that they've got something that they should probably change, you know, they want to change. So, those are the people that kind of start hating on you. You know, you're going to get it both ways.Scott: And when we go places with Michelle, it's like, when she's in balance, and everything is feeling good—and that's the majority of the time, it's like, we get people that just magnetize towards her, in the stores that we go to, and they want interesting information, they want topics, they want tips. Just because we did some time on TV, they know us a little bit better. And it takes so much time out of our day sometimes, and I like to push it on through, but she magnetizes people that really and truly want part of what she has, or you see people that walk by us and kind of give us a look kind of like, “Eh, who are you?” So, it kind of feeds both ways.Michelle: Yeah. And I think having a positive attitude makes me want to engage with people as well. So—Scott: It does.Michelle: —there are those times that you tell me to just sit in the car while you run in and out. [laugh].Scott: That's right, I tell her, I say, “We only got 10 minutes, I'm going to go in here, I'm going to get this handled, and I'm going to go.” Okay because I like to say, “Hi, bye,” but I'm not wanting to overly engage because usually, I've got a time schedule to keep.Michelle: There you go. So, we've got another energy drainer. Why don't you tell us about this one?Scott: You know, this is about—Michelle: Saying yes to so much.Scott: That's right. And realistically, it's like, everybody wants to please people. So, when people want your time, when they want your volunteerism, when they want your help, we all want to say yes because we want to be a pleaser.Michelle: We want to be part of the solution.Scott: Right. We want to help people get through something. And it's so hard that realistically, you just have to stop sometime and say, “Okay. Can I really achieve this? Is this going to put me over the top? Do I really have time to do this?” And you have to say no, sometimes.Michelle: Yeah, you have to guard your time. And just remember that the opinions of others doesn't define you. And you remind me of that all the time because I want to say yes to people. I want to give. I want to help other people. But sometimes I don't reserve what I need to for my own self-growth.Scott: Exactly.Michelle: And I remember when I first started practicing it—I don't know if I'll ever master it, but I try—but I know the kids were little, and a parent asked for me to volunteer for something in a classroom, and it was the first time that I thought, “I'm going to practice saying no,” and it didn't really go over all that well. And I threw it back in her lap, I guess, and she was kind of offended, even though it was nice about it. And it's never easy. So, I think that's just an ongoing thing that I'm learning to practice. But it does; it pulls you in so many directions, and it can drain you of your energy.Scott: Oh, exactly because you'll get stressed out because you took on too much.Michelle: Yeah there are ways to say, “You know what, thank you so much for thinking of me, but I don't think that's going to work out right now.” You don't have to just do a hardcore, “No.” Or, “Heck no.” You can—Scott: Right.Michelle: —be, you know—Scott: Diplomatic.Michelle: Yeah, diplomatic. And it's very awkward at times, even being diplomatic.Scott: It is. Definitely.Michelle: I'd rather say no through text than I would face. [laugh]. So, you do. You have to guard your time. And I think that leads into our next energy drainer and that is not front-loading your day, with self-care in body, mindset, and spirit. Because we get so busy during the day and we can have all of these intentions and then they fall through and at the end of the day you think, “Well, what did I even get to do for myself?” And that can lead to resentment, more fatigue. You think, “I didn't even make any progress today.” But if we can start the beginning of the day doing some sort of self-care that—and I love to start with exercise. In an ideal world, I'd be up at 5 a.m. every day doing my gym time. Sometimes that's not very conducive, especially if I have an early morning commitment of some sort. But I do like to do that. That's one of the things that I feel like it sets those feel-good hormones, those endorphins in the right direction, and I'm able to think clearly through the day. And you, you start the day with reading, and meditating, and saying a prayer. And you're very consistent with that.Scott: But I have to be because I feel like if I don't get started off in the right boat, somewhere down the road, when the day gets overwhelming, I feel off, you know? I feel like my energy isn't there, my motivation isn't there, even just a little saddened sometimes. So, realistically, it's like, I need to take that time in the morning to start my day with who I'm going to be.Michelle: Yeah, I mean, I do think that there's a lot to that. It could be something just as simple as reading something inspirational, taking a moment to just be grateful for something, moving your body. You don't even have to go anywhere, just move for five minutes, stretch, anything like that. And then start the day with something healthy, start the day with a good hydration, something like that. It's pretty pivotal in the direction that it can take you. So, there you go; those are our energy drainers. And one of, I guess, the overlooked things that could be included in that morning routine would be making sure that you have your day planned out the night before.Scott: Yeah.Michelle: I don't know if that's an evening routine, or if that's a morning routine, but they kind of like, merge together.Scott: They do they really do because if for some reason you didn't get your clothes cleaned, you didn't prepare meals the night before, you don't have your water—I fill my water jug every night, almost every single time because I like cold water.Michelle: And I don't, and I don't like cold water. I don't fill my water jug and I end up drinking yours. [laugh].Scott: Exactly. That's what always happens, unfortunately. But those are some of the small things I put into place because I know if I do that, then the next day is going to at least start pretty well.Michelle: Yeah, exactly. So, I think that if we are mindful of these energy drainers, and we know, kind of, the impact that they can have on our lives, it just helps us to be better prepared, so that we can shift accordingly. And that doesn't say that we're going to live a life of perfection. But being mindful, that's huge.Scott: Yeah, and I think at least it helps you identify them maybe before they come, and how you're going to handle them.Michelle: Exactly. So, three tips that we want to leave our listeners with today—and we really do appreciate you listening to our insights on energy draining—that we want to leave you with: setting personal boundaries for yourself that you will and will not allow in your life. That's huge because that gives you kind of an automatic roadmap to follow.Scott: And I think one of the most important ones for me is scheduling time for yourself and holding those appointments. Don't let anybody get in your way. Don't let the kids, the dog, the cat, a client, anybody take your time because that time is valuable to your balance.Michelle: You don't have to say, “Oh, I'm getting my hair done,” or, “Oh, I'm going to take a nap,” or whatever that appointment time is with yourself, you can just say, “I'm sorry, I already have an appointment at that time.” It can be that simple. I think the third one we want to leave you with, too, is to have a saying, or an affirmation, or some sort of quote that can help you get back onto task if you feel yourself thrown off during the day. Sometimes all you need is a simple reminder to just help you refocus.Michelle: Elements of living a healthy lifestyle come in various forms. Sometimes we don't have all the answers we need, and sometimes we don't even know that we have a need until we have important discussions.Scott: That's the inspiration behind why and what we do with Totality Living Well and helping others live a life of true balance in body, mindset, and spirit.Michelle: We love hearing your comments, questions, and feedback as you navigate your own health journey. We're grateful that you've taken this time to join us. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast through Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts.Scott: You can also follow us on Facebook or Instagram by following Totality Living Well.Michelle: And check out our website totalitylivingwell.com for other tips and customized health programs available.Scott: We'll see you next time.Michelle: Remember, keep your health front and center. It's priceless. In great health, always.

In this episode of Totality Living Well, Scott and Michelle introduce themselves and how they came to be health coaches in Knoxville, Tennessee.  Scott and Michelle began their health journeys early in life.  Scott remembers meeting Arnold Schwarzenegger and admiring his bodybuilding as much as his ballet training.  Michelle questioned everything as a kid. She wanted to figure out why her family members suffered from diabetes and heart conditions. She even questioned what lunch ladies were serving her in school, which led to some awkward conversations. Having lived in both Colorado and Tennessee, Scott and Michelle acknowledge the health gaps between Western and Southern America. The couple discuss how their love story intertwined with their health and business goals. Ebbs and flows are a part of everyone's lifestyle. When your healthy habits are right on track, Michelle says that's when real life will set you off balance. As an adult, parent, and businesswoman, she's been there and survived.  TranscriptMichelle: Welcome to the Totality Living Well podcast where we probe into the nitty-gritty aspects of health: the good, the offbeat, and even the controversial things that aren't always discussed. Whether you've had a long-standing curiosity or simply want to know more about a topic, we're here to explore the solutions and answers to empower you in body, mindset, and spirit.Scott: Hey guys, Scott and Michelle Williams here. Healthy living consultants, certified in nutrition fitness and neuromuscular massage.Michelle: We're parents, business owners, and understand the challenges that life can bring with keeping the elements of your own health on track while ensuring that the kids, parents, pets, and loved ones in your life are also taken care of with the resources they need for health and longevity.Scott: We're so glad you joined us.Michelle: Welcome listeners to the introductory Totality Living Well podcast. My name is Michelle Williams, and I am joined today by my husband Scott Williams. We are co-owners of Totality Living Well, a health and wellness company based out of Knoxville, Tennessee. And we are stepping into the podcast world to share our life experiences and expertise in health and wellness, and we are so honored that you have chosen to listen to our first episode.Scott: Thank you for joining us today. We're excited to talk a little bit about who we are and how we came about. Michelle and I met here in Knoxville about seven years ago, and we both were looking at, just, the community and basically what we felt was missing here. And basically just the concepts of health and wellness, and how people actually looked at this community and health and wellness, both coming from a different geographical area of the country. And we both looked here and said, “Wow, we could really do some great things here.”Michelle: Yeah, one of the things that we noticed, too, that the idea of health and wellness for a lot of people entailed getting a prescription filled, and then going to grab their salad at a fast-food restaurant, and maybe just doing a little bit of something here and there—mowing the yard for a little exercise. And we wanted to introduce people to a way of living that we had grown accustomed to, especially out in the West. We each came from Colorado, where it's pretty much a health mecca, but I guess we've always lived a life of health and wellness. So, Scott, why don't you just share with everybody how you got started?Scott: Yeah, when I was a young kid—I actually grew up in the Midwest, I mean Indiana, and up there was meat and potato country. They did three vegetables and boiled them to death and that was about it. But once I moved out to Colorado, I saw just a little bit more about how to treat your body, really. And then I got an opportunity. My father took me to an early contest of Arnold Schwarzenegger in Columbus, Ohio. So, I got to meet Arnold initially and was very inspired by him. But then also for people that are of our age range, I also got to meet a gentleman named Jack LaLanne. And Jack LaLanne was an icon of health wellness in the early 1900s, and he was just very inspiring. And the guy was probably in his 80s at that point in time, was strong as a house. And he just gave me advice, and he said, basically when it came to nutrition, he said he made it and he said if it came in packages, he didn't buy it. It was fruits and vegetables, if he wanted pasta, he made his own pasta, if he wanted bread, he made his own bread. He said, “You've got to stay away from the additives that are out there.” And he says that's the way for him on how he was able to keep himself in such a great condition of health and wellness. Which, you know, it went back for me as a young teenager, and I was so inspired by that. I was like, okay, right away, I went home, and it's like, I'm going to have better eating habits, I'm going to hit the gym, I'm going to exercise, I'm going to take care of myself, and just continue that the way that was, basically. And I just really got inspired by that. And I decided I wanted to help others as well.Michelle: So, Jack LaLanne asked you a question when he first met you, that actually was a life-changing question. And I ask that, a lot, of my first-time clients, too, and that question was, “How frequently do you poop, son?” [laughs].Scott: [laughs]. Exactly. And it's all about the fact is when Jack, his motto was when you ate, you should go to the bathroom. You should poop within 15 to 20 minutes after every time you eat. And, basically, if you're not doing that, then your system is not working properly.Michelle: Yeah and I think so many people, just when it comes to digestion like that, that's something that they don't really even address or think about the frequency. So, the way you eat and the way you move, all of that not only affects your digestion for the better but it also, it helps with cellular turnover and all of that. And that's just—it all fits together, and I think you saw that at an early age.Scott: Yeah, definitely. It changed my life in the way I was doing things, was before I was eating fast food, I was going out, I was doing stuff like that, and probably I didn't have very good bowel movements at that point in time. But once I got on a health train, but more vegetables in my life, and more fruits, and more things that—it made me feel so much better energetically. And it also made me just perform better as a kid. I could think better in school, I could perform better in sports. It just all around made me a better person in that way.Michelle: And then you got to meet Arnold again after you started walking that healthy lifestyle. So, tell us a little bit about that.Scott: Yeah, I mean, I got to meet Arnold a second time there. And Arnold was just such an inspiration because even though he was a bodybuilder, and everybody knew him for his muscle mass, he still was iconic because he was doing things that people didn't even think about. Arnold did ballet. And if you can believe the fact that a gentleman that size actually did ballet because, at that point in time, they didn't have any formal yoga, they didn't have a lot of formal stretching ideas. But he did ballet, which opened his body up, to be able to keep him injury free, to keep him flexible, and to be able to train harder and still care for his body in that way.Michelle: It's almost like a lot of those principles and that line of thinking is starting to come around and be more widely received, and even taught now, which is kind of cool because both of those guys were just so iconic and before their time. They just set the tone in the bar for health and wellness.Michelle: It's really cool that that all led to your next steps. And that's how you got started with your education.Scott: Yeah, so I guess basically, from that point on, I just knew that I wanted to help people. I dabbled in a couple different types of jobs, and things just weren't right for me. So, I basically knew that through personal training, through nutritional consulting, and then also 10 years, 15 years later, I went on and did neuromuscular massage work and trained in that because I started seeing the benefits of helping people that had injuries, helping people stay away from injuries, and helping people get through pain that they didn't even know they had, and how they could take that and get that out of their lives so that they actually could physically move because people would say, “I just can't exercise because my back hurts too bad.” “I can't exercise because I've got this bad neck.” But if you found a way to actually help people change that, that didn't take any effort, necessarily, for them, except for to lay on the table and actually get work done on them, and then to find out what the possibilities were. And then that always opened the door for me, too. People will say, “Well, how should I eat?” Or, “How many days a week, do you think I need to exercise?” So, basically, we could get them healthy on the table, we could change the mindset that they had. And then they start inching into interest in other realms of taking care of themselves.Michelle: And then at one point, you started helping people move, and you had this cool idea. Tell us a little bit about what you did.Scott: Yeah, so actually, um, when I was a young teenager, I decided that I was tired of the large gym scenes and all the hype about it—because all they wanted to do in the gyms were sell memberships, sell memberships, and then hope people didn't show up. Because if people didn't show up, they could keep selling memberships. If everybody showed up, they would be over-occupancy. So, I thought about it and I was talking to one of my clients at the time, and I said, “I got this great idea.” And she was a really sweet lady. She was an attorney, I think, in her probably late 50s. I had helped her—when she came to me she had a hard time lifting things. Her and her husband—I mean, her husband was like a big marathoner and she was having a hard time keeping up with him. And basically, I got her to the point where she was curling 25-pound dumbbells, and she was able to go on hikes with her husband at the end of the day and keep up with him. And so she was so excited that she wanted to help me in any way possible. So, I said, “Okay, this is my idea.” So, she said, “You know what? Come see my banker.” So, what I did in the early 90s, basically, was I started a mobile gym. So, I took a 35-foot school bus, renovated it, put equipment into it, stereo system, lights, everything you could do, and then I rolled around to businesses and homes, and I trained people in the Denver Metro area.Michelle: I love that story and I think just—I love your heart too. Of course, I'm married to you, but you've got a great heart. And then after you did that little journey with the bus, I like what you did with the bus.Scott: Well, so at that point time, when I decided to park the bus—the hard thing about the bus was the metro area was getting too busy, it was hard to get around, and truly, I needed a crew of buses. I needed five to be around different places at different locations for when people needed to be trained. So, I decided to park that situation and I got out of it, and actually got myself outdoors a little bit more. So, while I was sitting on this bus, I didn't know what to do, I thought I bought—I tried to sell it, nobody was really that interested in it. And then someone had called me up and they said, “Hey, we're really interested in your bus. We saw it.” That thing. And so basically, they came over to look at it and ended up being a family. And they were basically, like, living out of a tent. And they wanted to purchase the bus so they could actually live out of it.Michelle: I love it. And I love how your heart speaks through all of that. And I think that's part of the reason that we started working together, too. We met in Knoxville, Tennessee, after coming out here from Colorado, and you were trying to get your business up and running, and my professional background for so many years had been in marketing. And after we had become friends, I said, “Hey, let me just try pitching you to a couple of these TV stations and see what happens.” I said, “But the first thing that we need to do is, I want you to start with one word that we're going to base your whole media campaign on, your publicity.” And I said, “Take a few days, that's all you got to do.” And because this is an important word, and we need to really think carefully about that. And you said, “I don't have to think. I know my word.” I said, “What is that word?” You said, “Integrity.” I think I fell in love with you that day. [laughs]. I was like this guy really not only walks this walk, but he's got heart behind it. So, it was pretty easy to fall in love with you after that, and to start a business, and sharing our stories together and how they paralleled.Scott: You know, and I think that it was a great experience that we fell in love at that point in time. And by talking to you, I want you to tell them a little bit about your story and what drew you into health and wellness.Michelle: Okay, so I am 52. And so back in the '70s, we did not have internet, we did not have all of this immediate access to information. We had to go to the library and look things up or read the encyclopedias, and what you got from those encyclopedias, that was what you're going to get. And I was always interested in healthy eating just from a young age and noticed that a lot of my relatives kept coming down with the same types of illnesses, diabetes, gallbladder problems, heart disease, high cholesterol. Just, you name it and it was just kind of the norm. And I started thinking, “Why? Why does everybody get that when they get older?” And it was my maternal grandmother who came down with gallbladder disease. And I thought, “Well, how does that happen? What does the gallbladder do?” So, I was seven and started researching what the gallbladder did. And I learned that it metabolizes fats. And then I started looking at what we had in our foods in the way of fats, and then how we kind of started eating a lot of fats with just everything we did, a lot of processed foods. And by the time I was in fourth grade, I thought, “Well, what's it going to be like if I take 30 days, and go without sugar?” Just 30 days, no sugar at all. And then at the end of that 30 days, just binge on sugar, and go to McDonald's, and have a Sprite, and have a Big Mac, and an apple pie, or an ice cream, or anything like that. And my mom thought it was kind of funny. And so I started reading the labels. And that became not so funny to her because I was questioning everything. And then at school—I was in fourth grade—started asking the lunch ladies about what kind of sugar was in their food and nobody could tell me so I started boycotting school food. And it really wasn't funny when the principal called to meet with my mom because nobody else wanted to eat school lunch. And so that was that weird time period where everybody was like, “I want to be a movie star. I want to be a nurse, I want to be a teacher. I want to be—” anything but a nutritionist and I wanted to be a nutritionist. So, it was a fun thing for me and my grandfather. After he retired from the military, he had a huge garden in Tennessee—or in  Mississippi, rather. So, I would help him with that big garden and I learned a lot about organic gardening, which is still a big passion today with our garden, that you get to till for me every year.Scott: Of course I do.Michelle: You love me. [laughs].Scott: I do love you. That's the reason I do it.Michelle: But we do grow some superfoods. And so anyway, that was the beginning of that. And then fast forward to when I could go to college. And I did get a scholarship to a great school that had a great nutrition program. I was 17, and I chose communication of all things. But it was always a passion of mine and came back to it full circle. I now have all of the certifications in that. And I was really interested in youth nutrition when the boys were first born, and wanted to get them off to a good start. So, that was the first big interest and the first certification that I had to help them. And you and I started talking, and we realized that all generations needed good nutrition. And then I also had just my passion, hobby of running and exercising, and then I just fell in love with weight training after I met you. So, there's our story.Scott: And that's great. It's one of those things that you just evolve through life, and you really and truly grow, and you add more tools to the toolbox as you go along. And that's the nice thing about it, being a little bit more of a seasoned professional in this business is, the more people you touch and the more clients that you have, the more challenges you've seen, and the more things that you can teach them on how to apply those challenges. And all of us have challenges in life. Even today, we have our own challenges. But you have to find and look at what types of things will actually help you. And there's a lot of professionals out there, and they'll say, “You just follow my checklist. You do this, this, and this. You do it this way and you're going to have the perfect body, you're going to have the perfect life, you're going to have the perfect kids, you're going to have the perfect job.” But realistically, that doesn't work that way. Nobody out there has that perfection, and that might have worked for one individual, but that doesn't work for other people, and so you just cannot follow a standard out there. And so those are some of the things that we want to help dive into.Michelle: Yeah. And we really do take a comprehensive approach to health and wellness. And it's more than just your body which, that's a lot of what brought us into our health journey was just the interest in how movement, and nutrition, and flexibility, and all of that adds together. But then there's so much more to health. And the component of your mindset, and what you tell yourself, and the way you think, and then also your spirit. And that's what differentiates us from animals, and I think a lot of times that's overlooked with people looking at a comprehensive health and wellness program. So, when we started Totality, we said that it's going to be Totality Living Well, in body, mindset, and spirit. So, in this podcast that we are about to pursue, we're excited to just delve into all kinds of topics that maybe aren't always first and foremost in the media, or social media, or in the articles. And we're going to look at some things that can be practical in helping people move along. And I know that as a certified youth nutrition specialist, there have been many, many days with our now grown—almost grown sons who are 18 and 16, where I was like, “Do I have to really feed them today? [laughs]. It's kind of a pain. I'm getting tired of this.” And so, as parents and as business owners, we understand the challenges, and we understand real life, and we're not going to try to act like we know it all because we don't, and we are looking forward to talking with experts in different areas of health and learning from them, but then also sharing what we have learned with our listeners, and with the goal of just empowering all of you in your health journey, so you can live a quality life.Scott: And truly, that's what it's about. It's really at the end of the day, when people talk about what they want to do, so many people say, “I'm going to work hard for 30 years, 40 years, and then when I retire, everything's going to be great.” Well, you know, it really depends on what you do when you take care of yourself along the way because you can't wait until you're 55, 60 years old to start taking care of yourself. Because you'll realize the fact that, “Oh, wow, this isn't what I remember.”Michelle: Yeah. And that's one of the first things that I tell my clients. Strap in because you're about to go into a ride of your life. As soon as you commit to really taking the reins on your health, real life is going to happen like never before. And that's going to be anything from financial issues, to relationship issues, to illness. I mean, it can be anything. So, it's about walking mindfully through all of the hurdles and the challenges. And so I'm really excited about some of the things that we've got in store.Scott: I am too. And we're going to look at it from both angles because Michelle works a lot with females; I work a lot with males. And just getting a feel for what both people struggle with throughout life, and their tug of war, I would say, between taking care of themselves and taking care of their family.Michelle: Yeah. And one of the things that we want to do with our podcast, each time that we have one, is to leave our listeners with three tips. And so we started brainstorming, what could we do in this introductory podcast for three tips?And the first one is to practice mindfulness in your life with your health, but always remembering that your health is not just about your body alone. It is the body, mindset, and spirit. And I think when you do take that comprehensive view of your health, it really opens your eyes to what you can be doing for yourself.Scott: And our second step is really about self-care. It's vital. In order to take care of others, you got to take care of yourself first because if you put yourself on the back burner all the time, between your kids, your job, your husband, anything, you're going to wear yourself down. And when you wear yourself down, you're not good for anybody else.Michelle: Yeah. And then the third one, too, it's just, don't overcomplicate the journey. And I think that that comes when we do listen to so many plans that have been pre-mapped out for us. It's just like, “I've got to execute this perfectly, or it's a wash.” And it's about ebbing and flowing, and simplifying it, and just focusing on a couple of things. So, I'm very excited about some of the things that we're going to be introducing to our listeners.And we just want to thank you so much for taking the time to learn who we are and what we stand for. And we invite you to tune into our next podcast where we're going to be expanding upon the three tips that we just mentioned, and give you some valuable insights that we've discovered as health professionals in walking our lives of health.Michelle: Elements of living a healthy lifestyle come in various forms. Sometimes we don't have all the answers we need, and sometimes we don't even know that we have a need until we have important discussions.Scott: That's the inspiration behind why and what we do with Totality Living Well and helping others live a life of true balance in body, mindset, and spirit.Michelle: We love hearing your comments, questions, and feedback as you navigate your own health journey. We're grateful that you've taken this time to join us. You can keep up with the latest on the podcast through Apple, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you choose to listen to podcasts.Scott: You can also follow us on Facebook or Instagram by following Totality Living Well.Michelle: And check out our website totalitylivingwell.com for other tips and customized health programs available.Scott: We'll see you next time.Michelle: Remember, keep your health front and center. It's priceless. In great health, always.

On‌ ‌today's‌ ‌episode,‌ ‌we‌ bring back ‌Scott‌ ‌Scharf‌ to talk about‌ ‌how‌ ‌to‌ ‌build‌ ‌out‌ ‌an‌ ‌accounting‌ ‌system‌ ‌using‌ ‌automation.‌ ‌ Scott is the Co-Founder of Catching Clouds, an outsourced cloud accounting service for e-commerce businesses. Topics: Why accounting is a daily, weekly, and monthly endeavor. The best accounting software. Setting clients up for accrual. Understanding the technological ecosystem. Switching from cash-basis accounting. Refining the process of cash flow projections. Why cash is king. One thing to increase optimization.  Transcription: Joe: Mark, I said many times that I actually fell asleep in accounting class in college. And unfortunately, it was Northeastern University and there were probably 200 people in the room. I was sitting near the door. So 199 people marched out with me there, my head on my desk, drooling, and then the next class came in yet somehow I'm in the position over the last eight years of really revealing a bare minimum of 5,000 profit and loss statements. And I get on my soapbox and preach about this; how important good clean financials are, not only for an entrepreneur's ability to analyze his own business and make sure they're driving towards their goals properly, but to be able to even just get in the room with highly qualified buyers. Once you get in the room, there's a ton of other things, but the P&Ls will get you in the room. And I understand you just had another conversation with our good friend Scott Scharff from Catching Clouds about building automation into accounting so you don't have to actually do this yourself day in and day out, week in and week out by building some automation into the process, either through QuickBooks or Xero. I understand Scott has preferences for both and good things and bad things to say about both. Mark: Yeah, so you're not the only one that fell asleep in accounting class. I did as well. If you looked at my grades, you'd wonder why I'd talk about accounting so much. But you know this Joe I've been working my way through some biographies of various titans of American business. I went through John D. Rockefeller. I'm now in the middle of a biography on Andrew Carnegie. And you know what one thing they both have in common? They were religious about their books. In fact, that was one of the big advantages that Carnegie brought into his business, was detailed books that they could optimize. I just find it fascinating that we can see that this is the case all the way through history what the people have been super successful. Their books are up to date. They're clean. They use them to optimize their businesses. And Scott and I talked a lot about how to do that with an Amazon business. I'm not going to lie, it was overwhelming, partly because Scott is crazy intelligent when it comes to this stuff and he has his systems all set up and he starts throwing around this system, that system, you just hook this up and you do that and then the other thing happens. And in my head, I'm thinking, how can anyone even start this? And at the end of this episode, you'll hear me kind of say that to him. I'm like Scott, this is overwhelming. How do you even get started? But the idea is simple and it is you just get started. He said something in this episode, which I didn't call out in the middle of the episode, but I think is really, really key. He said that of all the financial records that he sees people put together, he will see sometimes accountants that don't know the Amazon world trying to do books, and then he'll see some owners doing their own books. He said both are typically a mess but the ones done by the owners are less a mess than those being done by the bookkeepers because the bookkeepers don't know anything about Amazon. Joe: That is CPAs you mean, right? Not the bookkeepers. Mark: Yes. Joe: Yeah, I'll agree with them a million percent because CPAs do taxes, bookkeepers manage books, and owners try to manage books as well but never quite as good. So I think he's spot on. Guys, listen, and by guys, that's a unisex term. Pay attention to this. I know I preach on it sometimes and I'm so sorry, but it's because I'm here to help you. I'm here to protect you. We are entrepreneurs, we're advisers, we're brokers, we're mentors, and we're your friends, and we're sharing this information for you to help you build a better business and have a better exit someday. Even if that someday is 20 years from now, if you've got automation in your books like Scott is talking about here with Mark, it's going to make your life easier and help you make more money. So with that, let's move to it. But before we do, I want you all to send an email to Mark to discuss whether Carnegie is pronounced Carnegie or Carnegie. Mark: That's a really good question. I go both ways by the way. The author of this; it's an audiobook, he's saying Carnegie so I'm saying Carnegie now. Joe: Okay, Carnegie Hall is where I've been before, but I don't know either. I actually said we have a client that is a one, two, three, fourth remove descendant of Teddy Roosevelt and I pronounced it Roosevelt because I Googled that. Mark: That's wrong. Joe: I know. It was dead wrong. Mark: Carnegie, Carnegie Accounting, let's do accounting. Joe: There we go. All right. Here we go. Mark: Scott, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast. I know you are on the podcast a while ago. I think we talked about the ultimate seller's checklist about the things that you have to do, both leading up to a sale and then after the sale, closing on the business but I'm excited about today's conversation. We're going to talk a little bit about bookkeeping and the reason I'm excited about this and I know people in the cars or wherever you're listening at would be like I need to stay awake, I want to talk bookkeeping. I hop on this all the time. Bookkeeping is so important and there's so much data in your books if you keep them right. I had a conversation with somebody just the other day who is ready to sell. He's got a great business that's growing like crazy and he's going to have to put things on hold to flip over to accrual because that's what we require now. And so I want to talk to you about this because it's what you guys do over at Catching Clouds. Why don't you just kind of give a quick introduction for those that are listening to you for the first time? Scott: Okay, cool. Thank you. That was a while ago and that was a good conversation. So Catching Clouds, we provide outsourced cloud accounting services to e-commerce businesses. So our whole focus is only working with businesses that are selling a physical widget on Amazon, eBay, Shopify, Bigcommerce, TrueCommerce, House, Wayfair, Wish, Amazon Canada, CO, UK. Really most of our clients are those more complex multi-channel sellers and we're working with the larger established businesses and the one to fifty million dollar range. But the main value we offer is we provide the bookkeeping, accounting, and controller level review of their financials and we do all the work. The clients get read-only access to the financials. They threw everything over the wall to us and we leverage technology to pull everything together and then we turn that into accurate financials. And we just consider ourselves part of our client's businesses. Were just part of their team. Mark: Why? I mean, let me just start off with kind of an obvious question and one that I think if somebody is not at the million-dollar revenue or fifty million dollar revenue level, why are companies at that level hiring and spending money on a company like yours? Why is it that their financials are important enough to have that controller level service like yours? Scott: Yeah, so the main thing is that they feel out of control. And we have talked all about management accounting, not just year-end for taxes; we're like a clock, strike twice a day. And otherwise, you only know; and if anything it is extended, you only know if you're profitable in September for the whole prior year. And our whole focus is accountings at daily, weekly, monthly piece and that the owners at a minimum have to stop, take a step back and look at their financials and adjust their gut feeling so they can make great decisions on a daily, weekly, monthly basis, which are all those decisions you have to make so that your business runs better. It's more efficient, it's more profitable, and better to sell because it's managed well. But if you don't get that feedback where we have people; sellers that will go, wow, that was my best month ever and we're like, yeah, you lost a bunch of money. And they're like, wait, what? Well, you spend all the money on this and you didn't pay attention to your marketing spend and you spent through all your profit on the marketing spend. And if you don't see that, it doesn't do any good to notice that six months from now. So it's those kind of things. Or when they're looking at any of the many real-time tools, there's a big difference between real-time tools to do re-pricing and high-level reporting and you can use to make real-time decisions on re-pricing product or what to buy and all that stuff, and then double-entry accounting that accounts for everything. And then we help them adjust they're gut. Hey, this tool always shows you your sales numbers 10% too high, and then they can adjust to it and make those real-time tweaks. But the real value is they're serious about being entrepreneurs. They understand and they hate doing accounting. Most of these businesses didn't go into business to pay sales tax or do accounting and they want somebody else to do it, but they want somebody else who can talk the talk, who understands where the FBA is and FBA reimbursements and inventory and accrual and landed costs. And they don't want to have to train the accountants on just the terminology, let alone what are all the crazy things Amazon does, what's the settlement statement, and all that crazy. So that somebody that they can trust is taking care of those financials and then it's our goal to educate them on how to read the financials themselves and provide insight. Mark: Yeah, I think you talked a lot about kind of those boots on the ground sort of decisions, those granular decisions. I think financials and getting comfortable with reading your financial statements there's two levels. I'm a big picture type of guy and I actually just recently did this with Quiet Light and with another company I own where I took a look at my financials over the course of the last year and I just simply broke down the expenses as a ratio of revenue in the big categories and where are we? And with Quiet Light one thing I want to do is up our data game. We've got a lot of data that we built on over the years, but it's not organized as well as it could be. It's not point and click we could pull this data up. It requires some work. And you know what? It shows in my P&L because we historically had a large tech department that's changing. With my other company, we should be more marketing focused and it was this kind of bigger directional sort of CEO sort of thing and saying, hey, you know what, we really need to double down on the marketing. So I think the financials have that kind of dual-level play of you get the big picture, but the granular boots on the ground sort of decisions too is important if you know how to read them and understand them. You guys help with that. You help laicized some of it. Scott: We do. And one of the key values we do is each of our controllers who are CPAs we don't do federal and state income taxes, but they understand accrual accounting, gap accounting, and everything else. But each one is supporting at least 10 sellers and we never share confidential information, SKUs, or whatever but we can look across all of our clients and say, hey, wow, you're spending three times as much on your Google ad spend as we've seen with our other clients and we're not seeing that show up in your income. And they're like, oh, I just launched a new product, in four weeks I'm going to cut that back. And then our controller as from an accountability puts it on the calendar, calls the seller and say cut it back so you can start making profit. It's okay to ramp up your marketing spend and burn through your profit for whatever number of weeks to launch a product but sometime you've got to back it down. And if you forget all your profit is flowing out. And so it's that comparison and we can do that common comparison, kind of small data, big data across our client base because they're all consistent because we have no restaurants or which would be bad or nonprofits or other things. So it's that insight of being able to see multiples and your business too, you have the same benefits of the fact that I've looked at over a thousand seller's books. You guys have looked probably at least that many if you get that when you're in this niche and you focus on these areas, you really understand the nuances and you see the different scenarios and then you can provide that feedback. Mark: Absolutely, specialization especially for what you guys do. It makes a huge difference. Let's start with talking about different types of software, because Joe Valley, the co-owner of Quiet Light he often, says Excel is not accounting software. Unfortunately, we see a lot fewer Excel books these days than we used to, although they still come up every once in a while. The two dominant ones seem to be QuickBooks and Xero. I have seen other systems thrown in there from time to time. I know you've dealt with NetSuite to an extent. What's your favorite, why, or are they equally good? Scott: So Pepsi, Coke, they're great. It's so great that they… Mark: I'm a pop guy. Scott: Okay, yeah. Mark: Oh no, I'm joking. I'm not, I don't drink pop or soda. Scott: Yeah, I know. So in general it's great that they're both out there, they're both heavy competitors, Xero does much better internationally. Intuit has a much bigger footprint here; a much, much bigger footprint here in the US. But because Xero came along and has been in the cloud and about six years ago, got 200 million in VC funds Intuit went uh-oh we better fix our cloud solution. So that helped anybody that was on QuickBooks. So today they're both feature consistent. Okay, so if you pick either platform one or the other, you're going to be okay. We prefer Xero. We think Xero is a better cloud platform. It's better with multi-currency. If you're doing multi-currency, it is by far significantly better. And then our view is that Xero is a better company. Intuit is a shareholder driven marketing company and that's all they care about. They don't care about accountants. They don't care about small business. I mean their marketing says they do. They are a big, big business. And Xero even though it's much bigger, is still only a few thousand people. It started in New Zealand and is very much about supporting businesses and being engaged in everything else. And they're just really upping the feedback always. Mark: Yeah, I've got a soft spot in my heart for Xero. I put my other company on it for a while. I actually had to take it off because I didn't like their PayPal integration at the time and that other company had a good amount of PayPal sales, but I just like how they set up the system philosophically. It just felt tighter. It felt like QuickBooks you could have all these loose ends kind of floating out there and Xero, like their name kind of alludes to, wants everything zeroed out and they wanted all the balance out. And philosophically, it felt better. What about NetSuite or other third-party systems? Are there other systems that you think are good to work with? Scott: Not really. Really it's in that small; even if you're a startup, you should start on Xero and QuickBooks and you should be doing accounting from day one even if you have no idea what you're doing. And every business owner, entrepreneur, you have to wear every hat in the business so you understand it enough so when you delegate it, you can oversee it. So you can start at that level and the only reason we would expect anybody that would outgrow Xero or QuickBooks online or us at that 50 million or whatever stage is when their supply chain gets more complicated. So we can talk about cloud inventory tools but the idea is need and I'm a big believer in best of breed; so Xero for cloud accounting, Gusto for payroll, A2X for Amazon and Shopify income, Hubdoc for document management, Bill.com and others and Veem for international wire. So we've got these set of tools but then the cloud inventory tool really has to be specific to the client. Almost all of them suck in different ways but there are some that are getting to be pretty good that you can use. But if you outgrow those or you can't find a tool that you need that will meet your supply chain and the number of 3PLs you have and your manufacturing process, then you might have to grow up to NetSuite. And if you're a larger business and you want to be able to; you're buying a lot of international stuff and you have customs invoices that show up six months after you've done a sale and you want to back-calculate all of your COGS into the past, the only way to do that is on NetSuite. Because we do monthly snapshot accounting so if there's an adjustment six months later we posted in that month, we don't go unravel everything and put it all back. So if you need that sophistication or you need a more advanced one but you're going to pay for it price wise and you're actually going to pay a penalty that in my opinion, not great integrations to pull data from these sites and it makes it difficult to impossible to at least reconcile Amazon working with the different NetSuite integrations. Mark: Well, let's talk a little bit about that because I want to talk about some of the automation of this because I think the biggest challenge with a lot of the software is figuring out how to pull in the data in an efficient manner and we especially run into this problem with accrual accounting. This is why so many bookkeepers mistakenly or misguidedly tell their clients you should just do cash basis, because for them it's a lot easier, right? You see the purchase order, you enter it in, and going through to an accrual, you need to check your beginning inventory levels at the beginning of the month and ending inventory levels to figure that out. And it's just more work than they want to do, frankly. How do you set your clients up? I want to talk two questions, one would be how do you set your clients up for forward-looking moving forward we're going to be on accrual and keeping that automation in place. And then secondly, what are easy ways if there is an easy way to go back and get those historical COGS on a monthly basis for an Amazon business? Scott: Yeah, the two sides income. I mean, the first piece would be the automation we look at is first making sure you're posting your income properly. If you sell a hundred widgets that you get paid for 100 widgets and so we use a tool called A2X accounting to post the Amazon income. We've been using it for six-plus years. If posted a penny, it breaks up a hundred plus Amazon fees and follows the accrual method by posting a summary invoice. Because the main thing we recommend for everybody, unless you're doing B2B or direct manual sales on turns, every other sale can be summarized on a daily or weekly or monthly invoice and A2X will post Amazon and Shopify income. For Shopify, it will post Shopify payments every day that matches the payout every day. So the first thing you want to do is be able to get all the income into the system properly and then A2X breaks out based on our design. We're their close partners. We're using it for a year and a half but we were in Alpha for about six months, but they'll post and our standard is to post all the income by payment processor. So on Shopify, if you're using Shopify Payments and Amazon Pay and PayPal and Globally and Sasol and Afterpay or whoever else. It'll break out each of those posted invoice for each of those merchant providers and then you can reconcile it. So that's how you get your income and it's going to post it in the right period as to when the sale happened, not when you got paid. The difference between accrual, you track everything. And in our opinion and accrual, not only do you need it for valuation, not only do you need accrual to make sure you have a balance sheet so you can see your inventory and your assets versus liabilities but it's also easier to look at that if you have these huge expenses that you pay for or you're buying a ton of inventory and you pay $100,000 this month in shipping charges you want to spread that out and as you sell the product, pull that out not pull it together. Now for COGS and inventory, if you're looking for your values, the best tool is just you can't do it on spreadsheets. Just like you can't run accounting on spreadsheets, you really need a cloud inventory tool. You need the automation so you have a structured process to purchase products through a purchase order so you know what you're paying for. I mean you're constantly updating your costs, you're receiving that inventory. So whether it's fraud or they forgot to put a case; you bought 20 cases and they only put 19 in and they were just going super fast, which is usually the problem not so much someone's trying to rip you off. And if you can't catch that in controller control, you just have money that's just leaking because inventory is just cash in a different form that you're trying to turn into more cash. And so you really need those tools that are pulling in every order because all of that detailed data doesn't have to live in the accounting and it shouldn't. Xero and Quickbooks online are not set up to pull in every Shopify transaction, every Amazon transaction. They're not. The idea is you want that summary information and then you want to make sure that your cost of goods sold aligns with the income. So you have to have a consistent process. For Amazon, we upload costs into A2X and it'll post cost of goods sold so the same orders that were in your income even if the settlement statement splits over the end of the month all get posted in the appropriate month, and then you can do the same thing for Shopify. And then for our clients that are on cloud inventory, you can run as long as the tools provide in our focus, which would be cost of goods sold per channel so you can see your profitability per channel on the financials is really the piece you want to make sure that you can get that number, be able to validate it, and everyone's like, oh, that's this big accounting thing. I'm like no your whole world is operations; its purchasing product and shipping product out. Everybody will know we did 422 orders last month and they'll go, okay, and there's all the data for it and that needs to get applied to the accounting and then you need somebody who can do that properly. Mark: You said something just a little bit ago here which I find; it tends to be a mindset shift among a lot of sellers and that is your inventory is just cash in a different form that you hope to turn into more cash. And this is where the switch from cash to accrual changes and people that are on cash basis tend not to see this, right? They see their business bleeding cash and they see a cash in, cash out and when they spend all the money on inventory, they see that as losing value but it's not. You're just transitioning one asset cash into another asset inventory. And I think this is, again, why this topic of discussing books excites me because it causes you to think of your business in a different way; in completely different ways, as a blend of assets. Most of what you said, I already know our listeners are going to listen to this and be like that is way too complex for me to go through and do. Can I connect these things directly? Can I just plug and go or do I need to hire somebody to do this? Can I train somebody to do this? I mean, how do you actually go about implementing this? Scott: So there isn't one tool that will connect all the different pieces. Now Xero and QuickBooks online and A2X for an Amazon-only business gets you a long way along the method because if you're all FBA A2X will get you most of the way there. But for anything else, there's no secret process. So someone's like, oh, I'll just use what Logility and use their reports, they connect everything. I just did a deep dive review of them again and we couldn't figure out how they were posting the data and then we couldn't rec because we were evaluating we were trying to implement it. So you have to have a consistent set of processes to know you're doing your accounting on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. We do cost of goods sold monthly. So it's an hour or two per client per month because we have a standardized process that we follow through that shakes out vendor deposits and the other details. So the first process is what are you doing, what are you trying to accomplish, and just break that down, whether you're doing it yourself. Look at resources. We have some online courses. We have a bunch of YouTube videos to make sure we educate people. But then we still have a manual process for Walmart and eBay and Etsy and House and Wayfair and all these other channels where we download the data monthly, pivot it to post the income, and reconcile it. But we use the exact same data to apply a cost to post COGS. So it's a matter of that. Now, there are consultants out there that will help you set up the cloud inventory tool which we don't do, or you can work with the vendors to implement it and then you either have to manage it yourself or hire someone like Catching Clouds or another e-commerce accountant that understands the technology, the e-commerce space, and accounting. Mark: I think this is why it's so tough for so many people. Because as an entrepreneur, I have an idea, I've invented a product or I've identified a niche I want to go after and I'm good at that but now you're asking me to understand my financial reports. And then on top of that, you're asking me not to just understand my financial reports, but to understand the technological ecosystem around these financial reports to make them all work without hiring somebody who's going to cost me $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 a month just to be able to do this and suck up any profits that I do if I do have. That's why it is so difficult for people. The whole ecosystem is complex and difficult to understand. But I do know once you do get it set up, it is just a few hours a month. So you put in the effort of what am I selling, what are my processes, and then how can I get this into the system the right way? Once you get that setup, then maintaining it isn't as difficult as the initial setup. Is that fair? Scott: That is correct. Once you get those processes in place and you've got a defined process, you're just not assuming you can set automation and set and forget it, you're there. And then I would put the same due diligence that everybody puts into outsourcing; I mean, e-commerce sellers, the big things they outsource, except for the few that decide to buy a warehouse and want to invest in property and that's important to them being an entrepreneur and that's part of the journey. But that's, in my opinion, a very small percentage of the sellers, everybody else is working with 3PL warehouses or FDA or Walmart fulfillment service, Shopify fulfillment network. The same due diligence that anybody puts into that and understanding their supply chain or their vendors or who they're purchasing from, you just need to decide the financials are a priority for that order and then go through the same due diligence where you know nothing as an entrepreneur about whatever and then you start. But it is absolutely possible to put these systems in place or outsource the work like most sellers outsource and one thing I recommend every seller do is outsource sales tax. Don't try to use a tool like TaxJar or Taxify or Avalara. Just hire assault consultant or have someone like Catching Clouds, which we do it only with our accounting services because it's so complex. We're filing over 5,000 returns a year and even if you do everything right, the states generate notices and you have to deal with all of that. And the same thing applies to outsourcing your 3PL and your fulfillment. And then I would recommend outsourcing your accounting and finance because unless you're 30, 40, 50 million, it's really expensive to hire a bunch of accountants and manage them and train them and make sure they stay on top of the technology and all that other stuff. Mark: You know this is the sort of field that if you fall behind, is that much more work to get caught up. And I know we've referred some business over to you in the past that need some cleanup. We refer them to other partners as well that need clean up. What does that process look like? I'm saying, okay, I've fallen behind, I've been doing cash basis accounting for the past forever and now I want to go back three years to do this right and get moving forward. What sort of workload are you typically looking at to be able to get that caught up? Scott: Yeah. So in general, unless they were using A2X and it's very, very rare or they were doing things right or in a lot of cases it's interesting if the owners are involved, they don't know all the things in accounting and what they do they're very particular about so they do less wrong. Invariably when we see other accountants that don't work with any other e-commerce businesses, they're just making it up as they go and they make it worse and worse. 80%, 90% of the time we have to start over with a brand new Xero file even if somebody is on Xero because there's just tens of thousands of bad records in there and you can't get to it. So we set up a new Xero file. You import all the bank and credit card transactions for that time period. You categorize them and you reconcile all those accounts. Then you post all the income and then you go through accounts payable through all that time. And of course, once you just identify the data and even if they have another system, we can rip all that out, put it back in, but then make sure that no, no, this invoice was paid this month, but it was from the prior month to make sure that the bills are in the right period to get all that going. And you just do those accrual things and then we can post the income per month historically and then do the cost of goods sold per month. And so if it's 12 months or; and so we have to go back to either 1120 or 1119 to the prior tax return or back to the beginning of the business and run that and that's what it's going to take. We have looked at; we are Xero expert experts. My co-founder, partner, and wife Patti teach Xero experts how to do cool expert things in Xero and we have all these tricks to clean up the accounting. And I've got a whole list of things that I want Xero to do to allow us to make it so we can just take what's already in Xero and clean it up because the bank feeds and the fundamentals for Xero are great it's just when you connect all these apps and push in data, you end up with whatever. So it's really a process for us. It's about four to six weeks for one to maybe a little bit longer but it takes time. It takes time to set up the systems. It takes time to pull in the data. It takes time to get through it all and redo it and then validate things with the client go away. Hey, I bought a forklift. That was in inventory. I don't sell forklifts. You go, oh okay that doesn't go in inventory. We'll move it over to a fixed asset and off you go to the races. But it just takes a fair amount of work to understand to pull in all the data and do it. But for the most part, you just start with a new accounting file, get all your data; bank, credit card, bills, income, and COGS, and repost it following the accrual method. Mark: Yeah, I get that. I've been there. I've had to do that before. And you're right, going back when you have thousands of transactions can be a nightmare. I want to know where's the balance between good enough and probably not good enough and too much. And here's what I want to bring up to you, there's a well-known accounting company, which I will not name names, that has a cloud-based service that I know does cash basis and then at the end of the year does an inventory adjustment so basically giving you a full yearly accrual basis. And I've seen these financials before where all of a sudden December looks like the worst month ever because they're doing this massive adjustment at the end of the year. So that's one extreme and for a lot of owners, they'll say, well, it's good enough, I'm getting some high-level understanding of my sales and maybe my some cost, but not COGS. That's one and I would say that's not good enough but that is the attitude. On the other end, you and I have talked before about entering sales down to the individual sale, and being that's ridiculous you don't need to go to that level of detail. What is the balancing point from a controller standpoint being able to look at financials and be able to understand these books and be able to get both those kind of big picture decisions made, but also those granular decisions of look you're over overspending here. This is not a profitable product line or you need to stop ramping up your expenses in this area. What's that balancing point for you guys? Scott: So, yeah, there are a lot of people that really look at their financials and that other method is good enough for a tax return. It's not good enough to make those decisions to understand what's in your business. And it's just making sure that you're doing all of the accounting, not everything, right which means every bank. And the most common things we see when we review books is that they're not reconciling every bank account and credit card every month. Because if you think your system; you downloaded whatever data and you think you have $50,000 in the bank and the bank thinks you have 10, they win unless you've caught the error and fixed it. And it's typically just a data error so if you're not looking at the end of the month settlement for every bank account, credit card, and merchant account to say, hey, this is where we have clients were like, you had $30,000 disappear. Oh, it's a reserve. PayPal's got a reserve or Strike has a reserve which has been happening a lot recently. So we want to have those triggers but you want to make sure you're doing those reconciliations so that you know about all of those expenses and all the things flowing through your credit cards. The other thing is make sure every account's on there. If you're using a personal credit card from the owner because you don't have an Amex, Plum, or whatever in your business, and as long as it's dedicated to that business, it should be on the books. You should be tracking those expenses and then it's just do; and then you pay it off and it's just payments to the owner and it all works out from an accounting perspective. And then, like we said, you just want to make sure you're posting the income in a summary fashion and you could just decide to do it all monthly and know that I'm going to take four hours a month, I'm going to post the income and figure out COGS and get that done and it's good enough and if there's any adjustments. And then the last thing is you have to make sure that the balance sheet balances, which means all the numbers and the liabilities and assets. If the balance sheet doesn't balance you can't trust the P&L. You can't trust your statement of cash flows. And so it's kind of a do those core things and then go make sure you have somebody; an external party that's reviewing what you're doing at least monthly or quarterly to say, yeah, this is right or no, you have this write off or hey, you have this big hundred thousand dollar adjustment leach let's go see if we can figure out what's going on in there. Mark: It sounds like there's two steps here, right? There's the validation of your financials, but there's also an understanding or review of those financials. And maybe they're kind of linked together in the same thing where when things don't add up right that's a sign that you need to be digging deeper into something. Maybe you have an inventory leakage or you're leaking money because not all the inventory has been shipped or accounted for. And you would recommend that on a monthly basis then? Scott: Yeah, at a minimum, it's hard to do. We try to do as much of the accounting daily as possible. We believe that to stay on top of a dynamic e-commerce business, you have to be pulling in the bank feeds from yesterday today. You need to be looking at accounts payable and bills you know oh, I did a $30,000 prepayment on a $100,000 purchase order and I owe $70,000 in six weeks when it ships. Like if you're not paying attention to those things on a daily basis, then the owners are constantly pulling money out when they have to pay bills out of the business; their personal bills, and then the next week loaning the same amount of money or more back into the business and you just go do this swing if you're not staying on top of it. But if you're smaller and you're ramping up and everything else, at least do it monthly and then start doing a little bit more weekly. There is more automation that's coming over time around bank feeds and AI and other stuff, but it's going to take a while to get here. Mark: You know, one of the things that I think can really help once they start getting the stuff together is the ability to forecast. And I'm not talking about even on the sales side, that's kind of the second level of forecasting. But on the expense side, because you just brought it up right now, right? You have a bill of $70,000 that's going to come due. Have you planned for that or is that something that's gotten lost with all the craziness of the rest of your business? Or you want to launch a new product line what do your expenses look like over the next three, four, or five months? You can't do that if you aren't living to some extent in your financials on a fairly regular basis where you understand what's coming up. Do you guys get into much of forecasting even on the expense side? Scott: Not long term forecasting, but cash is king and cash flow projections. So we're just refining our process. So we have some clients that we'll do it for a daily for a short time when they've got lots going on at a specific time frame. And then we'll just provide kind of a weekly cash flow that's always that four to six-week view; here's where payroll comes out, here's your expected income, here's what the Amazon payments come in if you're not using Payability or something that lets you cash out every day so you can manage cash flow but it's really all about that. And we just haven't chosen to extend it for a longer period of time because our focus is daily, weekly, monthly but the idea is that the owner should take a step back and look and say, oh, because what we're trying to always get to is to say, here's how much free cash flow you have to buy inventory, pay for marketing, invest in the business, new products, new design, new people, whatever and then hopefully there's something left over for the owner as well. Unless you're in that I'm continually investing that's great but you need to know how much that is so you're not constantly doing. And that cash flow and that availability can include you have a $100,000 Amex plan card. That's just capital to you because most e-commerce sellers love racking up points and that's not debt. That's not a long term loan. They're going to pay that Amex bill probably every two or three times a week to keep the balance down so they can keep buying product to keep up with demand. But you need to know where those numbers are, where are those thresholds? When you're starting to push out against them if you're growing and your sales are growing, which is what's been happening for a ton of sellers in this big new world that we're in where everyone's home and everyone's buying online and that's all ramped up you need to know when you're hitting those limits and that you either need to invest more money as the owner because you're going to turn that cash into more profit; into more cash. Or you're looking at different lines of credit whether it's with a bank, which is usually the most painful way. But there are other alternative ways that aren't quite online loan shark and you find the balance between those to post that in. But it's really cash is king. If you're not looking at it; there's so many businesses that are profitable on paper, profitable on their P&L that go out of business because they didn't manage their cash. Mark: They didn't manage their cash or the cost. And you said costs are king what do you mean by that? Scott: Cash is king. Mark: Cash is king. Scott: Well, actually, costs are pretty important. If you don't have a good handle on your costs, you're going to run into the situation where you don't know what the value of your inventory is. And the most important thing is you don't know how to price your product. So if you have a product that you buy in the US and you buy in huge volumes and that your suppliers don't charge you shipping, you can use your buy cost. It's pretty straightforward. But if you're buying a product, either whether it's being manufactured or shipped internationally and it costs you a dollar per unit, but it costs you nine dollars to get it live in Amazon FDA or your warehouse, you need to know your cost is $10 is your landed cost after shipping and customs and insurance and even inbound into Amazon. So you know your all up cost to know what that is. And if you don't have a good handle on one of the first things we do with just about every client is revalidate their costs, identify the ones that are wrong, and then look at what they're selling it for. And they think they're averaging some margin and it's usually a lot less because they're not aware of their full cost for their product. And that's understanding that landed cost and landed cost is a key accrual process where you pay for everything and then you take that shipping and it gets added to inventory and then as you sell, it comes out and it's value. And that can make a huge difference on client's business. We have clients that are close and they're using landed cost, but they're not doing that last accounting bit monthly to do a journal entry to take hey, I spent as much on cost, customs, tariffs, whatever, and moving that all into the inventory account. And then you go, oh, I really have spent two million dollars on inventory and shipping and everything else, and I'm pulling out 200,000 a month in cost of goods sold. I have not just the number of quantity of units, but you can see the money flowing in and out of your business. Mark: Why don't we have you on monthly to the podcast? I don't know I feel like we just scratched like the first quarter of what you put together as far as the list of things we can talk about. But we are up against the half an hour, so I am going to cut it here and ask the best way to reach you; obviously CatchingClouds.net. You guys have courses available. Is that on Catching Clouds? Scott: Yeah. So if you go to our site, we have a contact form if you want to talk to me, especially if you're a larger business, I'm happy to talk or email and interact with anybody. I just enjoy interacting with sellers. Then we have our YouTube channel, which we have over a hundred YouTube videos, and we'll start adding more next month on basic topics. Now it's all my wife mostly who can explain things better and doesn't talk as fast as I do, but we're really there. And we have so much more that we want to push out onto those YouTube videos because we're happy to share the basics; how to read financials, and all these different things. We just want to help those sellers that are smaller than a million and or do it yourself. And then we also have a Facebook group that supports that for sellers and accountants for providing answers and questions for people that take our courses and just have general questions and then we have our outsourced service. So if you go to our contact form, reach out and I'm happy to interact and have a conversation. And most of my focus is really where your biggest challenge is and if I can help them figure out the top two or three cloud inventory tools that would be there or a developer that would do automation and build zappy integration to improve their efficiency or point them in the right direction, I'm happy to do that. And then our big services, we'll just take it all over, clean it all up, and then run it. Mark: Yeah, I think for those that are listening here, especially those that may not be in that one to fifty million dollar revenue range, the one thing I can say just from my experience is the companies that get there have books in order for the most part, much more so than smaller companies. And part of the reason that they've gotten there is because they have taken the time to put together good books. And it does give you insights into the business that you can't get otherwise. That doesn't mean that we haven't seen companies in the one to 50 million dollar range that don't have their books together. But all the more reason for those companies to make sure you're are doing this because if you aren't, I can almost guarantee you're bleeding cash somewhere and you're lacking optimization somewhere. I think the biggest thing; let's end with this cut, people are overwhelmed by this, they may be not sure how to start. What's one thing that they can do today? If they think that they're under optimized with their books right now, what's one thing that you would suggest that they do today? Scott: I mean, it really usually just comes down to education. So whether it's our YouTube videos or books like Financial Intelligence for Entrepreneurs is a good book. It's looking at that and then our big thing is process. So if you're not documenting your process for receiving inventory and dealing with returns, just take a whiteboard and put it on your wall and start building those things. So it's called the combination of education and then it's just organization so you can keep track of your to-do list and you know, oh, I've got to block out this much time every day or week or month for accounting. It's more about that discipline and then just get an accountability coach. There are other things you can do, like profit first for a different way to look at profit. Or you can hire someone for EOS entrepreneurial operating system and the traction books. So there are actual structured processes that you can join in where it's not just you have to determine it ahead of time, but it's kind of education. Have coach as partners, whether that's Quiet Light who gives out I know great advice. Even when they're talking to people two or three years from when they're selling and they may never sell to say, no, these are the smart things to do because everything they're telling you to do smart to sell your business is the same guidance to run your business profitably. And then get those external resources, find your peers out there and talk to them and share best practices, and just continue to evolve as an entrepreneur. Mark: Scott, it's really good to see you again. Thanks so much for coming on. Scott: You're welcome. Thank you. Resources:  Catching Clouds Catching Clouds Contact Form Catching Clouds YouTube Channel Catching Clouds Facebook Page Quiet Light Podcast@quietlightbrokerage.com

James:  Hi audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value and Real Estate Investing Podcast. I'm excited to let you guys know that last week we had Mark Kenny from King Multifamily and we discussed a lot of interesting stuff about some of the different markets that he's been buying. They have been buying like in five different markets. Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, and Florida. And it's very interesting to see, apart from Texas and Florida, which are, you know, more popular markets and how do they underwrite deals in Alabama and how they underwrite deals in Tennessee, you know. So it's a very interesting episode, I would encourage you guys to listen to that as well.    This week we have Scott Hendricks from Current Investment LLC. Scott is a wealth manager and we're going to be covering different topics such as a DST or Delaware Statutory Trust, which is another alternative for 1031 exchange. You're going to be talking some things about 1031 exchange. And we're also going to be talking about qualified opportunity zones investments and some of the broker-dealer licensing such as series seven licensing, which is really important for people who want to raise money using broker-dealer license. Hey Scott, welcome to the show.   Scott: Hi James. Thank you very much.   James: Awesome. Awesome. So did I miss out anything? Do you want to fill in the introduction with anything else that I missed out about yourself?   Scott: No, I, I appreciate that. I have been an Austin based wealth manager, financial advisor for about eight years now. I have a series seven, which is the general securities license and I have a series 66, which is called a combined uniform state license. I also am licensed with my clients in California and Arizona and Wyoming in addition to Texas. And I am affiliated with a broker-dealer firm known as Kelton and Associates. They're based in Tampa, Florida. But my business current investments are based right here in Austin.   James: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I really want to quickly get into the series seven being a broker-dealer because there's a lot of capital out there. There are very, very few deals nowadays. And what's happening is a lot of people trying to raise money, you know trying to be a money raiser, but there's a lot of advice that's coming from the SEC attorneys that, you know, you have to do it the right way. And there's a lot of discussion about why not I become a broker-dealer? So can you define what is a broker-dealer, which is basically a licensed person who's allowed to legally raise money? What is a broker-dealer?   Scott: Sure. So a broker-dealer in my case is basically the...I think of it as kind of my back office. The back office that supports registered representatives like me with performing my transactions for my clients, maintaining regulatory oversight and supervision of my activities, ensuring that I receive ongoing training. They handle the registrations with the government entities that oversee all securities business in this country. And you're correct, there are a wide range of licenses that govern various aspects of all of this activity. They are now regulated by an organization known by its acronym, FINRA, which is simply the financial industry, regulatory authority and finra.org is the website where anyone who would be interested in learning about these licenses or possibly even obtaining one of these licenses could go and look at the menu of the different licenses that FINRA overseas. Some of which are for broker-dealers, some of which are for general securities representatives like myself, some of which govern the transacting in your liquid securities and private placements, which are often the kinds of opportunities that I believe you're describing where it is necessary to raise funds.    I don't remember the specific numbers of all of those licenses. There are about two dozen types of licenses that FINRA supervises. And I would encourage your audience if they were interested to learn more about that to go to FINRA, finra.org.   James: Got it. So how difficult is it to get a series seven license? I mean how long does it take? How difficult is the exam? What do you need to be good at kind of thing? Can you explain?   Scott: Well, you know, interestingly I got my license eight years ago. I know some things have changed as far as the cost. The costs have gone up a little bit. They're still reasonable. Most of these licenses can be obtained for a few hundred dollars, a filing fee, purchasing the study materials, scheduling the exam. I would say the process takes anywhere from three to six months. There are no prerequisites so you do not have to have a finance degree from college, you don't have to work in the financial industry. You can simply if you purchase the application for the license, study the material, take the test and pass the test, you'll obtain one of these licenses.   James: So do you need to know a lot of financial terms? Is there a lot of math? Is that calculus involved?   Scott: I wouldn't have passed if there was very much calculus. No, there's no need to know a lot of math. It certainly helps to be familiar with, I would say intermediate financial concepts. Certainly, basic concepts like, you know, interest compounding, time of the value of money cost basis, rates of return; fundamental financial concepts that anyone who wishes to invest or is already an investor should be familiar with. But there's no set list of previous academic or experience requirements that one must have before taking one of these FINRA exams.   James: Got it. So basically the cost is less than a thousand dollars. You say $300 eight years ago.   Scott: Again, I'm a little out of date, but I would say yes, you can still apply for any of these federal licenses for less than I would even say, you know, three to $500.   James: Got it. Got it. And so you say three to six months you go to the exam, it's not that difficult, you need to know basic financial concepts, which I think is important. You're going to be advising people about their money and what's the rate of return.   Scott: It's a designed course of study to maintain the credibility of the industry, the level of professionalism and the basic knowledge base that the regulatory bodies in this country want professionals to maintain for the benefit of their clients.   James: So when you are taking a series seven and becoming a broker-dealer, why would one person want to be a broker-dealer?   Scott: If you want to oversee agents, if you want to essentially work with a group of agents, representatives, who will assist you in putting together investment opportunities and seeking investors, seeking clients, raising funds a broker deal or license, which I'm going to go out on a limb and say a broker-dealer license is probably more difficult to obtain, a little bit higher barrier because of that nature. That a broker-dealer is more of an office in charge of a number of representatives who then go into the field and work directly with clients.   James: So are you saying broker-dealer has someone under them who works with the clients?   Scott: They could. There's no reason why a broker-dealer could also not be an individual as well. But it is a different level of licensing required to have broker-dealer credentials than it is to have securities representative or securities agent credentials as I do.   James: Oh, got it. Got it. So series seven will get you into the securities agent level and there's another level where you're to become a broker-dealer, I guess.   Scott: That's reasonably accurate. Yes. So series seven, again, a series seven is called general securities license that enables me, authorizes me to transact in marketable securities for individual clients or businesses. So I am authorized to recommend and Franz deck that is initiate the buying and selling of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, exchange-traded funds, registered private placements and in that last case to accredited investors. So it opens up a range of investment transactions that I am authorized to both recommend to clients and then assist them in transacting in those assets. A broker-dealer could essentially be in a position to put together deals, to put together or review outside deals that then they would approve an authorized to their representatives to go out and seek investors, recommend them to investors   James: Got it. Great. I think the structure is similar to like in real estate agent versus broker, either the broker has somebody working for them.   Scott: I wish I thought of that. That's a great analogy. I think that's very comparable. Yes.   James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So I didn't even know that; I thought broker-dealer is a person, I mean, can be a person, but it's usually like a company where a lot of agents work for them and these agents get the series seven licensing. Okay. Got it. Got it. So I presume if you want to do fundraising for your lifetime, then you want to get a series seven licensing and be part of a broker-dealer.    Scott: You know, I would advise anyone interested in being licensed in the securities industry to get a series seven. The series seven is almost the gateway licensed to a range of other licenses. Some of these other licenses do require that the individual have a series seven as a prerequisite. And as I mentioned earlier, there are licenses that are specific to illiquid private placement types of investments. So if I was interested only in raising money for let's say for startups or for venture funds or for passive real estate portfolios or deals, I would encourage that person to go get the series seven but then also look for one of the more specific licenses that delve more deeply into the specialized knowledge required for those kinds of specialized  investments tailored to the accredited investor.    James: Oh, got it. So series seven is just basic and then there's a lot more specific to the niche, I guess.   Scott: Yes. Now, the series seven enables me to do both, but the accredited investor deals that I am able to recommend to clients must first be approved by my broker-dealer.    James: Okay, got it. Got it.    Scott: If I had one of these more specialized licenses, I might be able to go out and self approve or do my own independent due diligence and then recommend a particular investment to an accredited investor.    James: Got it.    Scott: As such, right now I need to go to my broker-dealer and say, Hey, here's a good deal. It looks like it would be right for one or several of my clients. And then asked my broker-dealer to scrub it, do their due diligence and then if they approve it, I would be authorized to go raise funds for it.    James: Got it. Got it. So if one of our audience who wants to raise money for commercial real estate, you know, as syndication or multifamily, so they can get a series seven license and go and work for a broker-dealer.  And in that while they work, they can propose to raise money on specific multifamily or any other commercials syndication, I guess to the broker-dealer and the broker-dealer needs to approve that, then he can go and raise money for that part of their syndication. Okay. Got it.    And I mean, if it's not confidential, do we know how do these agents get compensated in terms of percentage? What is that range if it's not confidential?    Scott: No, it's not really confidential. In my case, it's not confidential. In fact, it all has to be completely transparent and disclosed to the investor. So, for example, on a non traded REIT,  if I was to recommend a real estate investment trust to a client that had previously been approved by my broker-dealer, I would earn a commission. In most cases where the investment is illiquid, I'm not gonna put that into a fee-based account. It's a standalone transaction that might complement that particular investor's portfolio. If they agree, I would disclose my commission and my commission generally runs between about four to 6% on the deal. Again, it's very comparable to what a real estate agent might earn on the sale of a property. But I'll disclose my commission, if the investor wishes to proceed, then I'll help them invest and I'll earn a commission on that transaction.   James: So four to 6% of the money being invested, is that right?   Scott: Correct.   James: Got it. Got it.   Scott: You know, four to 6% of the investor's contribution I would earn as a commission, a percentage of that, I would share with my broker-dealer, my back office. The way we think about it with these securitized real estate deals is if you invest $100, you know, $94 of your investment goes into the ground.   James: Got it. Yeah, I understand.   Scott: You know, approximately a 6% sort of transactional cost. Speaker: Got it. And do you get paid in the beginning or do you get at the end or during the transaction or how does that..?   Scott: It really varies depending on how the deal is structured. It really varies. In many cases, my commission will be earned upfront, but there are certain deals where, where my commission may be considerably less upfront but I'll get an annual payout over the life of the time that the investor holds that deal. It really just depends from a deal to deal.   James: And it's a one time commission. Right? That's it. Right?      Scott: In most cases.    James: Yeah. So I think what some people are doing is basically they're getting a GP percentage, which can be a lifetime, I mean, of that investment. But this is slightly different. Did you get a commission flat fee of 4-6% in the beginning? I mean, not at the beginning, in most cases.    Scott: Right. Yeah. Most of my business James is fee-based portfolio management. So I may work with a client who has a portfolio of stocks and bonds and I'll earn a percentage of that account value over the time that I manage it on behalf of my client. It's in these cases of the one time a private placement transaction like a REIT or a Delaware statutory trust, where I'll simply earn a one-time commission. And then the investor will then own a passive property, a passive asset that will generate passive income for that client. But if they also have hired me so to speak or work with me to manage their other portfolio, that may be on more of a percentage-based or a fee-based relationship.   James: Got it. Got it. So is it public information on which agent or which broker-dealer is doing better than others like the stock market, in terms of performing for their clients or is it all private?   Scott: You know, that's one of those questions that can always only be answered with the words 'It depends.' It's really difficult when you come down to investing for individuals and let's say for business owner clients to compare performance. Because each and every investor has so many different goals and different risk tolerances and different timelines that it makes it very difficult. It really is apples and oranges to compare the performance of an entire book of business; either held by an advisor like me or overseen by a broker-dealer. It almost makes no sense to try to compare rates of return or performance simply because each and every investor has a unique objective.   James: Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. I mean, that's a really good comment. I mean, returns are one thing, right? But risk profile off the investors and you know, how risky is the deal itself is another factor. And everybody has their own taste or flavor that they want to take on when they want to invest. So, awesome. Awesome. And why does an equity investor want to come to a broker-dealer versus going to a private syndication model and invest privately?   Scott: I think a lot of it has to do with the extra risk that you are mitigating by looking for investments that have already been registered with the securities and exchange commission and have been scrubbed; that is, have been researched thoroughly by a professional organization. And you know, there are certain things like just the credibility of the track record of successful deals that it has offered to clients that have exited; all the kinds of things you might look into with a private syndication deal. But for some investors that extra assurance of knowing that it has met the registration requirements of the securities and exchange commission and has been scrubbed and approved by a registered and licensed broker-dealer.   James: Got it. Got it.   Scott: That basically, that does that for a living. That does it, you know, hundreds of times a year looks at deal, memoranda and all of the documentation that goes into assuring investors that the deal is sound. And while you can never completely eliminate risk in any deal, I think that there's a certain risk premium that is reduced with registered and professionally researched opportunities.   James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Although I think I want to just clarify one thing. So usually the investor's equity is paid out of their equity, right? I mean the broker-dealer or the agent fees in this model are paid out of the equity. Whereas in the syndication model, a lot of times people who you know will become part of the GPS as one of the functions to raise money. They get the money from the GP, not from the passive investor. So that's one big distinction, right, because...   Scott: It is, that's correct. That's correct.   James: It makes a difference as well. So, in terms of the profile of customers who come and look for broker-dealers and agents who work with broker-dealers, I mean, is it like a lot of family offices, a lot of institutions, or is it a lot of private equity investors? How would you say in terms of percentage?   Scott: I think the answer is yes. And again, every wealth manager's business is different. In my case, I primarily work in the area of regulation D filed, liquid or a passive real estate and other types of deals. I generally am working with high net worth individuals.   James: Okay.   Scott: High net worth investors who are accredited and are simply looking to add or complement their existing portfolio with passive income through real estate, through business development companies. I also transact in oil and gas, master limited partnerships. So it's the investor in my case who is looking to diversify our portfolio and derive passive income at a rate that is more favorable than they would get in the bond market these days or certainly more favorable than they would get in something like a bank insurance CD or savings account. And perhaps doesn't have the inclination or the experienced to go in and evaluate real estate from private syndication that others might feel that they do have. So I'm able to offer for the less experienced real estate investor, the kinds of opportunities to derive passive income without the expertise that it might take to evaluate a syndication deal.     James: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. The professionalism, of course, makes a lot of difference compared to someone you know, coming on from a weekend boot camp. So very interesting. So, yeah, I mean that's really good.   Scott: There are always different paths.    James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so coming back to 1031 and DSTs - Delaware statutory trust. So 1031 is, you know, a lot of people know what 1031; where it's basically an exchange mechanism within real estate to a much larger real estate offer, same kind where someone has to identify like three deals within 45 days of closing of the current deal. And they can defer the capital gain and they can defer the depreciation recapture back to the new deal which they should close within six months. Am I right? Did I miss out some?   Scott: You know, that's pretty good. Everything you said is correct. I would simply add, and the way I like to describe it, a 1031 transaction is it's taking advantage of a section of the tax code and that's all 1031 is. It's simply a section of the internal revenue code that allows a real estate investor to sell a property or multiple properties and exchange the proceeds into other real estate, either a single property or multiple properties that can be either active or passively owned and differ all taxes that might be paid as a result of be the capital gains, depreciation recapture. There are a few other taxes that may come into play. For example, if you're in a state that has a state capital gains tax like California, that can also be deferred under the federal a tax code section 1031. But you're correct about the timelines there.   There are pretty strict timelines that must be met in a 1031. And I often tell groups of real estate agents and investors that 1031 is widely known. A lot of people know about it, but it still kind of has some stigma or some intimidation factor about it that prevents it from being widely used. And so part of what I try to do is help my clients and others understand the 1031 process. The primary thing they're going to gain is what they might have otherwise paid in taxes, they can keep inequity and reinvest into other real estates. You mentioned that in many cases an investor will trade up with the 1031, going into the larger holding in real estate. I also see a lot of clients who spread out their investment and diversify into other classes o rfeal estate or into other geographic areas that they may not have owned previously. So it really is a wonderful way, four real estate investors to both diversify, expand, and differ the tax liability in the process of building a portfolio of real estate.   James: Very interesting. But It's within the real estate asset class, right? Can they go from a real estate, you know, equity a 10 31 into something else other than real estate?   Scott: Not as of the end of 2017. And this is something that may be new to your audience. So with the last tax bill, I think it was called the tax cut and jobs act passed by the government in Washington back at the end of 2017, the rules of 1031 were limited. Whereas, previously investors were able to exchange property in maybe in a non-real estate asset. For example, if you owned a, I like to use the example, if you owned a classic car collection, you could sell your antique automobile and exchange the proceeds into real estate or into more cars or fine jewelry and still do it under section 1031. All of that went away at the end of 2017 and left only real estate tangible property is now the only asset class that can be exchanged under the tax deferral section of 1031.   James: Okay. So that's something new. I didn't even know that previously before 2017 you can exchange from other than real estate to other than real estate even though now you know, we all are real estate people so it's all within real estate, which is good.    Scott: And you also hear another common misconception about 1031. The 10 31 exchange is also sometimes commonly called the like-kind exchange. Like-kind is a phrase that is used in the actual language of the tax code. And a lot of investors, and frankly a lot of real estate agents confuse the phrase like-kind as meaning that if you sell multifamily, you must buy multifamily. Or if you sell a commercial property, you must buy a commercial property. That is not the case. Like-kind is very broadly defined by the IRS. Meaning, if you sell anything that has a physical address, a tangible property, you can buy any other category of tangible property. So if you sell a block of single-family homes that you've held as a rental property, you can go buy a warehouse or if you sell a self-storage property, you can go buy a ranch. So it's really any kind of property. It can be exchanged for any other kind of property,[31:24unclear] since 2017, as long as we're talking real estate.   James: Okay. So let me clarify that because we had some kind of sound issue there. So after 2017 we can go and exchange, even though it says like-kind, but you can go within a different asset class, like buying from single-family to a ranch or from multifamily to single-family. Okay. So if you still within real estate, you are good I guess. Right?    Scott: That's right.    James: Got it, got it. Got it. And I think one of the common strategies that a lot of you know, generational real estate investors use is basically to buy real estate and keep on exchanging until they die. And when they die, they gave it to their kids as a gift and where the cost basis starts all over again. And that's the generational wealth Passover, right? Is that true? I mean, did I say it correctly?   Scott: Yeah, it is. And really the 10 31 exchange is, I believe a terrific way to build a real estate legacy. If the investor has heirs or hopes one day to pass a legacy of real estate on to their heirs, 10 31 exchange is an excellent way to do that. Because as long as you continue to sell and then buy real estate under the rules of section 10 31, there's no limit to the number of times you can do it. And as long as you continue to do it, you have deferred your tax liability each time. If at any time you chose to cash out and simply sell your holdings and take the cash and walk away, you're going to owe the tax and in fact, you're going to owe the cumulative tax that you have been deferring. So there actually is with 10 31 a fairly strong incentive once you've begun the process to just keep doing it.   And if you keep doing it until your time is up and you have heirs waiting in the wings, you will upon the date of death of the original owner, that owner will leave to their heirs a legacy of real estate that upon the date of death is stepped up in cost-basis. That's the term that the auditors use such that the cost-basis will then become equal immediately to the market value as of that point in time. And as I like to say, the heirs, if they don't wish to hold on to the real estate, they conceivably could turn around the day after the funeral and go sell everything and pay virtually nothing in capital gains or depreciation taxes.   James: Got it. So that is an awesome tip there. You can use real estate to not pay tax and make tons of money and, of course, your kids are your heirs, they inherited that and they will make the money. But it's a big way to give your wealth that you have created to your heirs, right. And without paying any taxes   Scott: Right. And, again, it, it would then be up to that next generation whether they want to continue to own that real estate and continue to enjoy the benefits of passive income and all the other benefits of owning real estate in a portfolio. Or as I said earlier, if they chose to get out at that time because of the step-up in cost basis, it would potentially eliminate or virtually eliminate all of the capital gain tax liability.   James: Got it. And also the depreciation recapture, right?   Scott: The appreciation recapture as well. Now of course, if there's an estate tax, depending on the size of the portfolio that is inherited, an estate tax may still come into play. But that's an entirely different situation.   James: Estate tax. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. So let's come to DST - Delaware statutory trust. And I know some people say this is similar to 10 31. Can you explain what this and why we should use this compared to the normal 10 31?    Scott: Absolutely. So a Delaware statutory trust is not widely known. I've been familiar with these opportunities for about 4-5 years now and I've spoken to many real estate groups, investor groups, agents, attorneys, CPAs. The Delaware statutory trust, in short, is the only form of passive real estate that is eligible as replacement property in a 10 31 exchange. So let me expand on that. A Delaware trust is often compared to a REIT. It's very different from a REIT in many important ways, but it is a legal form of ownership set up around a property, around a physical property, and then offered to investors who may invest in a fractional percentage of the underlying property via the trust.  Because a Delaware trust must own physical property, the IRS recognizes it as another way an investor could engage in a 10 31 exchange. In other words, the 10 31 is just the process of selling and then swopping or buying other real estates. You could either as an investor buy an active property or properties, you're going to be the landlord and hold the deed and be responsible for the rents and the tenants and the repairs. Or you could own a fractional interest in a Delaware statutory trust. You would be a passive investor. The sponsor of the trust would have all management and landlord responsibilities, but as a fractional investor, you would derive your proportionate share of the income. And because there is underline real property in a Delaware trust, the IRS allows these types of trust as an eligible investment via section 10 31.   And so here's really how it works and this is kind of the main core, I think, of the benefits of the Delaware statutory trust, In section 10 31 exchanges, the investor sells a property that begins, as you alluded to earlier, that begins a 45 day calendar, a 45 day clock. That investor has 45 days to identify, in most cases, up to three properties that they intend to reinvest in. Now, they don't have to invest in all three. They could identify one primary property and two backups or two properties and one backup. But they've got to have those properties identified in the first 45 days.    A Delaware statutory trust makes an excellent backup property because it's passive, for one thing. It's open to investment. It's not going to fall out of escrow during the first 45 days as sometimes real properties do. In other words, it's not going to go off the market. If that were to happen with the investor's primary or secondary property and the deals weren't going to close there, if they have named a Delaware trust as a third or as any of their backup properties, their money could then roll back into that trust as an investment and that would effectively secure their 10 31 transactions from start to finish. So Delaware statutory trust makes great backup properties in that first 45 day identification period.   Secondly, in cases where an investor is selling a property and buying a property for less, or actually buying a less expensive property, maybe a value-add property that they want to improve and they're going to have some leftover cash from the deal that they sold, a Delaware statutory trust makes a great way to capture or invest that leftover cash and still secure 100% of the transaction, the 10 31 transaction, from tax. So as a simple example, if you're selling a million-dollar property and the property you want to buy is 850,000, you've got 150,000 leftover. It might be hard to find another real property for 150,000 in some markets. So a Delaware trust comes along as a great way to park or invest that residual leftover cash securing 100% of the 10 31 proceeds from taxation, at least deferring 100% of the tax liability and giving the investor now two different properties.   One is the primary property for 850 that they wanted to buy and fix up or be the landlord over. The other is the 150,000 fractional interest in a passive investment that they will have no work responsibilities to maintain, but they'll be receiving a passive income from that trust. And then the final way that I think Delaware trusts are powerful is if the investor is simply wishing to continue to own real estate but really wants to get out the landlord business entirely. And that would be someone who maybe has been an active landlord for a better part of their investment career, wishes to continue to hold real estate because it's a great asset. Why not? But doesn't want to be a landlord anymore. So they may sell all of their active real estate properties, declare their intent to do a 10 31 exchange and then pick two or three Delaware statutory trust to put 100% of the proceeds into. They now have switched from being an active to a 100% passive investor.    Someone else does the work of the landlord that is the sponsor of the trust. They began to receive the mailbox money or the passive income, still own real estate as part of their portfolio and they've effectively deferred all of what would have been their tax liability from selling their active holdings. And another wonderful thing about two more points about a Delaware trust. You can do a 10 31 exchange out of a Delaware trust. So when the underlying property in the trust sells, which signals the liquidation of the trust, the investor will be notified with plenty of time. They can then declare another 10 31 and take their proceeds out of the Delaware trust, which may have appreciated over that time and they can take those proceeds and swap them into some other property. They can either go into another trust or they can go back into the active real estate market if they choose to. Or of course they have the option to simply cash out, take the cash, and at that time they would incur the tax liability.    And then the other benefit of a Delaware trust is you do not have to do a 10 31 exchange to invest in a Delaware trust. Delaware statutory trusts are open to cash investors. So it's a good way for an accredited investor, which you must be. In order to invest in a Delaware trust, you must be an accredited investor, but you do not have to be bringing money into the trust via 10 31, you could be a cash investor. But once you're in a Delaware trust as fractional owner with either your cash investment or your 10 31 proceeds, you can then when the trust liquidates do a 10 31 exchange. So a Delaware trust provides a good way for a real estate investor who wishes to be passive, doesn't have a property to sell but wants to in the future be able to do a 10 31 exchange. As long as they've got cash and they are accredited, they can invest in a Delaware trust.    And then you know, three to five to sometimes seven years down the road when the trust liquidates, they'll be eligible to do a 10 31 exchange and defer any potential tax that they might have otherwise paid.   James: Wow. I didn't know so many things about DSTs. This is very eye-opening for me. It's like a syndication but it's a tax-protected syndication, right?   Scott: It's a way to take 10 31 money; money coming out of a 10 31 deal and put it into an investment open to up to 500 individual investors typically, which is far more than something like a tenant in common where you're limited to only 35 investors. Delaware trust, yes, you're a fractional owner of a real estate portfolio that is managed by a sponsor who acts as a trustee and you basically, your only job is to go to the mailbox and receive your checks.   James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, I was trying to bring that up. Tenants in commons is another way I thought Delaware strategize is similar to tenants in common. Because in tenants in common is where everybody puts their 10 31, everybody has their own LLCs, all different entities, but they work as one. But you brought up a good point. There's a limit on 35 tenants in common that can be done but DST is 500 people.   Scott: And an important distinction to make there is that with a much higher cap on the number of investors, you're able to fractionally own much larger institutional scale types of real estate. So you may be able to be a fractional investor in a downtown Dallas office tower that's in a Delaware trust, whereas 35 investors, it would be difficult to pull together the 35 investors who could afford to purchase a multimillion-dollar property. But with a Delaware trust, you often are a fractional investor in a property portfolio that could potentially be worth tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars. So access to a larger scale institutional type of property is one of the benefits of what the DST has versus a tenant in common.    And then the other one, now some will see this as a negative, some may see it as a positive. With a tenant in common, each one of the up to 35 investors has a vote. They have some control over the upkeep and the sale or the management of that property. And as you know, when the property is going to be sold, you've got to get the unanimous vote of all 45 investors. With the Delaware trust, the investor is 100% passive. They do not have any say, any control over the management of the property. That's entirely the responsibility [48:05unclear] of the sponsor. They also do not have any control or voice over when the property is going to be sold. So if that appeals to an investor, in other words, if they say, I don't want I have to vote or to have to go get the other 34 people to vote, I just want to be passive, a Delaware trust is a good option compared to [48:31unclear]    James: But what is the average return of Delaware statutory trust?   Scott: So again, that varies. It varies from you know, market conditions and from the difference of Delaware trusts that are available. Typically what I have been seeing lately are rates of return between about five and seven and a half to 8% and that's cash on cash. So cash on cash or nominal right of return is let's just say six to six and a half percent in the midpoint. So while that is not typically a strong rate of return compared to private syndication or even compared to a lot of tenant in common deals, you have to look at the other benefits.    One, again, access to larger institutional scale properties. The fact that the Delaware trust is going to be a registered program, sponsored and regulated by oversight bodies. And then three, although this is also the case with the other types of real estate investment, the sponsor of the Delaware trust in rules similar to REITs. If they are taking depreciation on the underlying property, that tax credit has to be distributed to their investors. So while the nominal rate of return might be 6%, that is the cash on cash return, in many cases, the investor is going to see some portion of that cash dividend be already after tax. In other words, it's going to receive the benefit of that depreciation tax credit that the sponsor is taking. So depending on the investor's tax bracket, their effective rate of return is going to be higher than their nominal rate of return, given that some portion of that distribution is after tax money.   James: Got it, got it, got it. But let's say for example 6% cash in cash, is it including the sale of the property or is there such thing called the sale because they are physical assets under this DST, right?    Scott: Yeah, no, you're right and I thank you. I should be clear. That is the cash flow. Let's say that, again, rates of return I'm typically seeing now average, I would just say average around 6% for this example. That is the cash flow. So that's the annualized cash flow that the investor is going to receive in monthly checks. Obviously one 12th of that amount in monthly check is the underlying property where they have their principal. If that underlying property appreciates over the life of the trust and is sold at a value greater than it was acquired for, the investor is also going to receive their prorated share of that appreciation. So the aggregate return is, I like to call it, or the total return is if the property appreciates is definitely going to be higher than the cash flow rate of return.   James: Okay. So do you have that kind of sample numbers on roughly what's a performer?   Scott: I can refer generically to some of the deals that I've seen. So let's say if an investor puts $100,000 as, let's say in this scenario where I described leftover cash; if they've sold a million-dollar property and they want to do a 10 31 and buy a $900,000 property and put that residual 100,000 into a Delaware trust, I'm just gonna use a number typically four to five, six or seven years. And again, during this time, the investment is illiquid. The investor cannot get their money back on their own schedule. They have to wait until the sponsor finds a buyer and sells the underlying property. But most real estate investors understand the concept of illiquidity.    So if they've put 100,000 into a Delaware trust and five years down the road, the sponsor finds a buyer for that property and sells it at 25% gain, 25% in an appreciation, the investor is going to get their 100,000 back, they're going to get 25,000 for their proportionate share of the 25% gain. And during the five years they've held it, they've collected, I'll use the 6% rate of return as an example, they've collected $6,000 a year in monthly distributions at a 6% rate of return. So they've in effect received in a very simple example, their $100,000 back. They've gotten $30,000 of cashflow over five years and they've received a $25,000 gain or appreciation on their original investment.   James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Interesting. So, yeah, I mean, it depends on the structure of syndication, right? Usually, you know, like for me, we allow people to buy and sell their shares. You know, within the investment period, but it looks like DST doesn't give that flexibility.   Scott: A DST and you know, again, it's important for me to also say that with DSTs, there are still risks involved. You can lose money as you can with any type of investment. The illiquidity of the investment is something that the investor has to be informed of and understand that if they are an investor in a DST, they're at the mercy of the sponsor for the holding period. Now, while the disclosures require that I tell investors it's a five to seven year hold time with no option to exit. Typically with the market right now being what it is, I have seen DSTs liquidate sooner then five to seven years. It's simply varies from yield to deal.   James: And what is the fee that the sponsor takes in DST?   Scott: That again, it varies from deal to deal. Typically there's a 1% a dealer or sponsor fee, at closing. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I do earn a commission on investment that goes into a DST, it can range from anywhere from four to 6%. And, again, it's in the same ballpark as if you were working with a real estate agent and buying the physical property or working with yield syndicator and buying into syndication.   James: Very interesting. I mean, I didn't know this vehicle exists and this is very powerful in terms of 10 31 money specifically. Why? Because you know, and I was thinking that you always have to go in 10 to 200 to go to larger properties, but it looks like you can buy smaller properties and take the remaining and put into DSTs I guess. Right?   Scott: Yeah. It's really a part of my message that using a DST is a great way for an investor to diversify if it is in their interest. First of all, the primary reason anyone would undertake a 10 31 is to defer the tax. But a DST allows that investor to diversify into different types of property, both in terms of asset class or asset and active and passive real estate. So they can begin to sort of put more chest pieces onto the chest board, I guess and look at passive investment, active investment, lodging, self-storage, multifamily, single-family industrial, commercial; build a real estate portfolio that is truly diverse in terms of geography, asset category and the active and passive of ownership status.   James: Got it. So let's quickly talk about qualified opportunities zone. I mean, there's so much of details into opportunity zone. I don't think we have time to go into a lot of details there. But at a high level, what is qualified opportunity zones investment, how is that different from a normal 10 31 and DST and you know, investing into opportunity zones?   Scott: So qualified opportunities zones were also part of this same tax act that passed at the end of 2017. They are a fairly new concept or fairly new opportunity for investors. And the case can be made that opportunity zones were written into law because investments that were not real estate were excluded from section 1031 eligibility. So an opportunity zone is a geographic region of the country and there are a thousand or more opportunities zones all over the country where the local authorities have designated a desire to have investment flow into those zones from investors. They may be, you know, below market regions of cities or communities where the thought being that if investment dollars float into these areas, we would have more healthy economic development.    Qualified opportunity zone investors may use gains from a sale of an investment other than real estate, whereas with 10 31, all you can exchange is real property. So, for example, if an investor has a stock portfolio and it's gone up in value, they want to sell their stock portfolio, but they'd rather not pay the capital gains tax that that's going to incur, they could invest the gain from that sale into a qualified opportunity zone, differ the tax liability, invest in a a property or real estate or real estate fund that's building projects in that zone and then they would enjoy a certain tax benefits due to the deferral of their original gain. If they maintain that investment in the opportunity zone for 10 years, they could then cash out and take their money and pay no tax. So one of the important differences between a 10 31 exchange and an investment in an opportunity zone is to put it simply, you don't have to die in order to cash out tax-free.   James: But do you get 100% tax being erased?   Scott: Not in the first case. You're correct. It really is complicated and we could probably have a whole separate episode on all of that opportunity zones. There are really two appreciation events that are subject to favorable tax treatment when it comes to talking about opportunity zone investments. The first one is the gain that the investor realized on the sale of their asset, whatever it may be that they want to put into an opportunity zone. So if they sold real estate that had gone up in value or sold stock, or I'll go back to my classic car example, and had an investment sale that would have been subject to capital gains tax, they can defer that tax up to seven years by putting that investment into an opportunity zone. Now, it is only a seven-year deferral. So after seven years, the investor will owe a portion of the tax they would have owed on the original sale of their investment.    It will only be, in the case of a seven-year deferral, it'll only be 85% of the tax they would have owed. So it is truly just a deferral. You do have to come up with tax payment, at least 85% of the tax you might have owed seven years ago. In year seven, that tax bill does come due to the IRS. But understand now we're talking about two different investments. The investment that was sold to make the original opportunity zone investment, the tax four, which is deferred seven years. So it might be a benefit to an investor's cash flow and then the investment within the opportunity zone itself. And if that investment turns out to have been a good one, and the real estate or the property or the project in the opportunity zone appreciates over 10 years -hold time- and the investor then cashes out of that opportunity zone investment that will be exempt from capital gains tax.    So it's that second investment in the opportunity zone that if it is a winner, if it appreciates over 10 years, the investor has the potential to cash out with their gain and owe zero capital gains tax.    James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So let me summarize. 10 31 DST and qualified opportunity zone. So 10 31 let's say I have a million-dollars, where I want to defer my tax and my depreciation recapture, I just buy another asset, right? A larger asset or multiple assets, but it should be a larger value than all of it get deferred. And to the next asset, if I don't want to pay tax, I have to, you know, keep on doing 1031 until I die and pass it to my heirs. That's the 10 31.  So DST is basically you asked it's the same as 10 31, but it's more of passive investment.    Scott: Let me, let me jump in there and clarify it. A 10 31 is just a transaction. It's a way to sell and then buy real estate and defer the tax, not pay tax during that transaction. A DST is an asset. It's a kind of an investment. It is a passive real estate investment that can be a part of the equation of the 10 31 transaction.   James: Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And qualified opportunity zone is basically, it's the same as 10 31, but you're deferring your tax for seven years and on the seventh year, your bill is due to the IRS, but you get 15% forgiveness.    Scott: You basically get a discount based on discount on the tax that you would have owed in year one. You'll owe 85% of it by the time year seven comes around. And so again, that was the tax you would have owed on whatever it was you sold to make the opportunities zone investment.    James: Got it. Got it. So the original tax difference, you only pay 85% after year seven, right? So you get 15% forgiveness. But I think the bigger thing in an opportunity zone is whatever deal that you're investing in an opportunity zone that's completely free in terms of capital gain after 10 years.   Scott: Yeah. Right, right. If the investment you have made in the opportunities zone does well and it goes up in value and 10 years down the road you have the opportunity to exit, you'll owe no tax.   James: Okay. That's very interesting because that's another investment where you don't pay tax at all. And if you're doing most of the time you definitely make money, right. If you go through the construction phase and you're past that I guess. Right.   Scott: Well, I will say that opportunity zones are new. There are a lot of risks involved. We don't have time probably to go into them here, but yes, there are a lot more considerations to making a potentially successful opportunity zone investment, but in the basics, I think you've got it correct.   James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard about so much of details on opportunity zone that you're to be really careful whether it's a qualifies opportunity zone and, you know, there's so many things, right. So awesome.    Scott: And you know, James, this is a good opportunity for me just to mention as kind of a way of a disclaimer. I am not an attorney and I'm not a CPA. And one of the most important pieces of advice I give to my clients is if you're doing any of these complicated real estate transactions, check with your lawyer, check with your CPA to make sure that you've gotten all your questions answered before you write the check.   James: Yeah. I think the purpose of this podcast and talking about so many things of this is just educational and just letting people know there are options out there. Which is very important because I was not aware of DSTS and you know, there are so much of details of the, you know, opportunity zone. So it was very eyeopening for me, so thank you very much. I appreciate it. Why not you tell our audience how to get hold of you if they want to get hold of you?   Scott: You bet. Sure. again, I'm Scott Hendricks. My company is called Current Investments. My website is currentinvestments.net. That's all one word, current, like the flow of water and then investments plural.net. You'd be welcome to send me an email or give me a call. My email is Scott@currentinvestments.net. My phone number...Do you typically, do your guests share their phone number?   James: That's up to you.   Scott: Okay, well that's fine. I don't mind at all. My phone number in Austin is  512 563 2134    James: Awesome. All right, Scott, thanks for coming in. I learned a lot of things. I'm sure my audience and listeners learned a lot of things and that's it. Thank you.    Scott: It was fun. James. Thanks very much.

Scott Voelker, the amazing seller himself, is back on the podcast today with a new book that will guide entrepreneurs on a path to financial freedom. Scott has transformed from someone who dabbled in e-commerce into a seven figure business owner, author, and host of one of the most popular e-commerce podcasts out there. Now he is sharing his tips with other entrepreneurs, offering sets of specific steps to follow to create a business that will allow freedom and flexibility. From the construction career he left at an early age to starting and building a successful photography business, Scott has built on his entrepreneurial nature for over two decades. In 2008 he started selling photography products online and soon realized it could become a full time income. Fast forward a few more years and he started to hear more about Amazon FBA model and how some people were making good money using the platform. He started researching and listening to any valuable information he could garner then used all the know-how he'd gathered and applied it to his product listings. Episode Highlights: How Scott and his wife got their start building a business from the ground up. Scott discusses the path he took and how the book delves into his future plans. Whether he finds the pathway to the end goal more difficult than five to ten years ago. How Scott is evolving from being “The Amazon Guy.” Helping others with the book and the action steps he outlines. Scott addresses the question of finding time to start a side hustle. Learning how to schedule downtime once success allows for less work time. Tips for finding that future-proof opportunity. Taking the affiliate marketing path as an opportunity to learn your market. Using channel diversification as a building block. Transcription: Mark: Joe recently I sent you a book through Amazon that I was hoping you would read and I'm assuming that's the next book on your reading list, right? Joe: No. Sorry. Mark: I'm not going to buy you any more gifts. Joe: No. Now you sent it to me via Amazon and I think I have to download it onto my Kindle app. Mark: You haven't even downloaded it? Joe: I haven't even downloaded it. Mark: Oh my goodness. Joe: You're just trying me. See the reason I haven't is because it's a productivity book and you're trying to get me to be more productive but I haven't read it yet so I'm not as productive as I could be. Do you see an excuse thing going on here? Mark: Productivity is one of those things that I'm sure everybody's like Joe is terrible at getting stuff done. Joe: This book I'm holding out for those that are on the YouTube channel. Thank you for being on the YouTube channel, by the way, you're awesome. This is the book I'm currently reading it's called the Take Action effect By Scott Voelker; a friend of ours and we just had him on the podcast. And that's what the book is all about. It's a combination of, and this is why I'm not reading the book you sent me. And I have one more in front of that by the way but this one is amazing it's really telling Scott's story. Scott as lot of people know has a podcast called The Amazing Seller podcast. With the audience he has every month he could fill up the Bank of America Stadium here in Charlotte and I think that's like 25, 30,000 people. He started out just telling his story building an Amazon business and everything he was going through. He just laid it all out on the line. He's really transferred himself or transformed himself into someone that is first and foremost helping people take action in their lives and he talks about this in the book and how he did certain things in his life and what an impact it had and what it led to next and next and next and now where he's at running a 7 figure business with the lifestyle that he wants. It's still one of the most important things about Scott and the book and the action steps that he shows people how to take is to run a business, set your own goals, how to set goals properly with vision boards and different things but with a lifestyle that you want. This is not a get rich quick scheme it's a book to build the life that you want; how to take certain steps and actions and if you want to run a 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 million dollar business great. These will help and there are some examples of that; of people that are doing that. But if you want to just earn an extra couple of thousand dollars on the side and build the business slowly there are absolutely some steps in there for those folks as well; people that are listening now that still have full time jobs that don't dare buy a business this allows them to take certain steps and actions to do that and build a safe business that's going to be relatively passive that they could do part-time as they build that up and eventually quit your day job work and sell it through Quiet Light. Mark: One of the things I like about this is the idea of having a purpose to what you're doing. And I think there is this tendency to chase success, chase success, chase success, and we put in our minds that success is a certain business goal while we ignore the other aspects of our life. And I know over the past 13 years running Quiet Light Brokerage I've run across so many successful entrepreneurs who have built amazing businesses but frankly are somewhat miserable because they've built prisons for themselves. And we talk about why are people selling. Sometimes it's just because they've built that prison of a business and they need to get out. And they realize that they need to readjust their life priorities. I love when we meet people like Scott, like Ezra Firestone, and some of these other guys that have reached certain levels of success and now what they're doing is they're really trying to just be helpful and really contribute to that entrepreneurial community with some of the lessons they've learned. And I love the focus of this book. I love that it's a system out there to help you identify what's really important and have everything else flow into that, set the real goals out there and build that system including the business that fits those goals. Joe: And it's just that Scott is a real guy giving real-life examples of things that he's done and the path that he's taken and he's giving real advice here that is action-oriented. And it's a mindset. It's inspiration. And they're steps to take as well. It's one of the best books I've read in 2019. I highly recommend everybody take a listen to the podcast and at the end and in the show notes here you can go to take action effect and download or buy the book. It's available. He went further than our very own Walker Deibel, he made it available in the audio version as well. Mark: Walker needs to step his game up and start a recording. No. Fantastic. Let's get to this episode here. I love introducing our audience to people that we find to be good friends of Quiet Light because they share some of our mission and purpose. So I'm excited to share this episode with everybody. Joe: Let's get to it. Joe: Hey folks Joe Valley here from the Quiet Light Podcast and today I have a guest that is back on. But this time he is a published author on his way I'm sure to being a best-selling author. Scott Volker, welcome to the Quiet Light Podcast. Scott: What's going on Joe? Thanks so much for having me. Joe: Welcome back I should say. I just saw you a couple of weeks ago at Brand Accelerator Live; a fantastic event where you launched the book, a big hit and my goodness I'm looking at some of the reviews and they're fantastic. And I'm reading it myself of course. And let's get into that but first for those folks that don't actually know who you are why don't you tell us all about Scott Voelker? Scott: Yeah. Well to kind of sum it up I've been at this basically creating businesses that allow me to have the flexibility, the freedom, that's always my first and foremost. Back when I was like 21 years old I was working for my father's construction company and from there I thought I was going to own that company one day and then that partnership and son in law that was stealing and some craziness I soon saw that that wasn't the path that I was going to take. But I wanted to still be able to work for myself and my wife and I started a photography business, learned the ropes through good old trial and error, and built that into a business that allowed us to take our kids to school and home from school and all of that stuff. And it's really important me to watch my kids grow up and I've got 3 kids ages now 11, 21, and 24. But I've been at this for over 18 years and really building businesses hasn't really changed just the platforms have changed. And so when I wrote this book I wanted to go through and tell the story of myself. Someone that didn't have a college degree and felt a long time ago that I kind of felt to myself like I wasn't smart because I didn't go to college. But then after kind of building some businesses and watching other people go to their 60 plus hour a week job and then seeing myself not have to do that I was like well wait a minute I'm going to give myself a little bit more credit. I've done okay. And so it in a nutshell that's what I do. I just love building businesses. But I like more about just building a business it's more about the freedom and the flexibility, stability and all that stuff. Joe: And that is what you talk about in the book. Let me just; I don't think I said what the name of the book is. It's called The Take Action Effect. Scott: Yeah. Joe: Proven Steps To Build a Future Proof Business And Create Your Ultimate Freedom. I'll hold it up here for those folks that are on the podcast; I'm sorry on the YouTube channel. Scott: Yeah. Joe: One of the things that you talk about in the book really hit home with me and that is that your wife had that first idea for you to go off and on your own. Scott: Yeah. Joe: And it's and it's continued in your relationship. You guys work through all of your business opportunities and ideas together, right? Scott: Yeah, 100%. I mean she was my take action moment as I talk about in the book a lot. I think we all have these moments in our life that something happens; like a decision happens that we make either because we're forced to and then we see the result from it or we choose to, we take that leap. And I was frustrated with my job and I thought I was going to own this company and then found out that it wasn't going to probably happen and we needed to figure out another way. And then that's when my wife had said maybe we should start a photography business which at the time we didn't have digital it was all film based not YouTube videos to go out there and educate yourself. So Scott that wasn't a good student in school had to figure out how to go through and teach myself Photoshop and just how to run a studio and we did that. But yes she was the one with the idea and still to this day she's always the one kind of nudging me a little bit and saying like you should probably listen to this. Even the podcast The Amazing Seller Podcast that was because she said that you should; I had the idea but she was likey should probably lean into that a little bit and here we are. Joe: That's funny you know my wife usually has the idea and then I have to go out and do it. It's a running joke in 20 plus years of marriage. I was going to I think our wives are very similar. Our marriages are very similar but it sounds like there's one distinct difference is that my wife comes up with the idea and I have to execute. So you're taking a lot of past so it's interesting from a construction worker to entrepreneur in the photography space before really the online world existed and then discovering it through eBay and then Amazon and then The Amazing Seller podcast. Scott: Yeah. Joe: Can you just talk about that path a little bit and talk about what the Part 2 of this business about this book talks about? Scott: Yeah. So like I said the photography business being brick and mortar I learned a lot about how to get clients in the door. And a lot of people say like Scott when you start a business should it be your passion. And if it could be then yes that would be amazing because then you would love to work on it every day. But I wasn't passionate about photography. I was passionate about getting out of my job. So my wife was passionate about photography but then I started to develop these passions and that was marketing and that was Photoshop and video editing. And the way that it kind of led me to really the online space and e-commerce really was my wife was looking for props on eBay. So in our business, we always were unique in the way that we had props. We had certain sets and we had like a lot of backgrounds that cost us 2 or $3,000 and people would pay just to come in because we had this hand-painted backdrop. So my wife was looking for this cedar bridge that she had seen somewhere else and she found one on eBay. It was like 130 bucks it was a little 4-foot little wooden cedar bridge. And so then as she was looking at one of the other stores that she shops at she's seen the same bridge for 30 bucks and she's like it's selling for 130. I bought one for 130 maybe we should try to sell this thing. I said okay. So then that's where we got the idea and we started selling those. Actually, we took the minivan over to the store and we loaded it up and we packed that thing and that money actually paid for our kids tuition for a private school. And so that opened my eyes to eBay and like what else could I sell, right? And even though I had a business I'm still thinking to myself as an entrepreneur like well that wasn't that hard. Maybe I should try to find more things to sell. So then we actually started a video business on the side of our photography business; they kind of work too, you know one of the same. And then I started building these projectors to transfer old 8-millimeter film. So the old 8-millimeter film that we use to have grown up as kids it was a lot of times silent film but there was some sound when it got; I think it was Super 8 and then I found a machine that was modified to transfer the film. And so when I got that I kind of looked at it and being in the construction world I'm like this is just a modified projector. Let me go ahead and reverse engineer what they did here and I did that and I started selling them on eBay for about 800 bucks. I was selling one or two of them a week. Joe: Wow. Scott: Yeah, so I made about 100,000 on just old projectors that I modified for film transfer and that's kind of what got my wheels spinning about this online stuff. Joe: And it never would have happened if you didn't; I'm going say this so many times, taken some action, right? Entrepreneurs are special people. They come up with an idea and they don't think about it and think about it and think about it and think about it. They've got to do some planning, of course, the more complex world we live in you've got to do some planning especially when you're going to spend some dollars. But I think maybe Scott back then when you and I didn't have any gray hair we were able to take action a little simpler and a little quicker, right? I would just with that whole ready aim fire or ready fire aim what is it? Scott: Yeah. Joe: Those things, right? And I just take my path and hustle and work hard and get it done and figure out the road to that end goal which I knew what the end goal was. I just didn't know the road or the path. Scott: Yeah. Joe: Are you finding now given that you've; I mean you've done all this for 20 years an entrepreneur in many, many different past and you've coached thousands of people through The Amazing Seller podcast and many of them 6, 7, 8, 10 figure exit eventually. Scott: Yeah. Joe: Are you finding that the pathway to that end goal whether it's an eventual exit of a business or just a one of a lifestyle where you can drive your kids to work every day and spend more time with your spouse and you take family vacations, is it more difficult than it used to be in your opinion? Scott: I think it depends on what your final outcome is. I think for a lot of people it's not about building an 8 figure business just to say you built an 8 figure business; to some people it is. It's like bragging rights but for a lot of people; and I know you told me a story about a guy he was a stay at home dad I think and he built his company in 2 years without pulling a dime out of it so they could cash it out and then live off of that and live the life that they wanted. So I think for a lot of people it is that. So for me personally I think it is I don't want to say easy; it's simple. Nothing is easy. Like everything that I've ever done, there's always been struggles and issues that you have to overcome; whatever like that's business. You just have to learn how to adapt, how to move, and adjust. But I think it is actually easier nowadays to build a business that you can potentially exit. And actually getting to know you more, getting to know the team over at Quiet Light has actually got my wheels spinning once again at looking at this as an opportunity for me to build something maybe from scratch, get it to a certain level, and then sell it, and then you just repeat that process. Like I could build a team to just help me do that. So again my wheels are always spinning. And the more I talk to you and I start hearing these stories I'm like that seems like a pretty straightway to go. But the principles and the concepts are pretty much the same. They haven't really changed. And that's what is in the book is really these pillars; these core things that make up a market, make up products, make up traffic; like all of that stuff hasn't really changed. The platforms change but the principles never change. Joe: You addressed some of the approaches in Part 2 of the book about building your future proof business. Scott: Yeah. Joe: You started out as an Amazon guy, right? You were selling on Amazon telling your story in the podcast but you've evolved quite a bit. Can you address that and then we'll talk about how the book addresses it as well? Scott: Well yeah but the book itself actually is my pivot. So we talk about pivoting all the time. So when I started the podcast you're right I was getting into the Amazon game just like everyone else was. It's just I was kind of doing it and other people were just kind of consuming information and saying like I'll wait until we have all the pieces that are working or all of the answers, right? Joe: You were telling your story whether it was a success or a failure and everybody was listening. Scott: Exactly. And so as I started to do that I also started to see how the market was shifting. So when the podcast was started it was Scott the Amazon guy. And then after I started to kind of see that the market was changing, more competition was coming, and it was getting a little bit riskier I'm like I don't want to go down that road. Now that doesn't mean it can't work. I just don't want the headaches of constantly just worrying that my accounts are going to get shut down or whatever. So I'm like I'm going to go back to basics build a business from skill sets that I've built and I talk a lot about that in the book like everything we've done we've built skill sets that we can then leverage in the future. So for me to really go down that road of like okay where was I van and where am I now, it's all about evolving; all about growing. I mean I think we're all doing that as we learn more things like even like when I first started I didn't think about having a brand that I could exit. And now I'm thinking; a lot of times I'm thinking to myself could this brand be sold, what would it take to sell this business? So a lot of times I'm thinking more along those lines now. But like I said people are always kind of like thinking of me as the Amazon guy and I don't want to be known; I don't want to 20 years from now be Scott the Amazon guy. I want to be the guy that helped people build a business that allowed them the life that they want and that they deserve. Joe: That's what I'm seeing with the people that I've met that have listened to your podcast and then to your events and are connected with you in any way. Whether it's Brand Accelerator Live, your inner circle Mastermind group, or The Amazing Seller podcast; they're not just building Amazon businesses, they're building businesses that will allow them to live the life that they choose to first and foremost. Scott: Right. Joe: Some of them that's all about building value and exiting and others it's all about taking care of others. Rachel; I had a conversation with one of your followers, listeners, attendees, whatever you want to call them, Rachel we don't use the last name but an amazing story. She's building a business so that she can help others. Scott: Yes. Joe: She's going to make money off the business but that's not the focus. The goal is to be able to use that money to help others foster children charities and things of that nature; really good people. You're building good humans which I think is terrific. You're surrounding yourself with them as well. Scott: It's pretty awesome. It's funny Joe I was just listening to the Ask Scott session that we recorded there live at Brand Accelerator and it just happened that the one lady came up and was telling us about her problem and her problem was is that she was wondering how she was going to keep up with the amount of scale. And I said that's a real bad problem to have. And I knew you were in there; I thought you were in there and I called you out and I go I think this is a question for Joe later kind of let him help you on that. But it's really; it's pretty rewarding to sit there and think to yourself I had something to do just because I showed up, pressed record, and started helping people. That right there that will; to me that surpasses any amount of money that I can make from a podcast is hearing other people's stories and how they're set up now to really live the life or maybe donate to their charity. That's like again the effect of the take action is the effects of that we're able to do the ripple effect on other people but also on your life and your business. So it's really about the ripple effect all the way through. Joe: Yeah, not necessarily about just building that business and exiting it. It's everybody involved along the way. Scott: 100%. Joe: That lady was Karen by the way and she did have some good problems, right? People wish to have her problems. Scott: Growth every year, year after year, and I don't know… Joe: Yeah. How do I keep up with buying more inventory? One of the things that you talked about which I think is really, really important both in the book and on stage and I'm going to just summarize for anybody listening. This book really encapsulates everything Scott's done in his life and what you've done in your life, Scott. But then it also gives a pathway to taking action and seeing what the impact and effect of that action is. But someone said look I'm busy I've got a full-time job. I'm trying to do this. How did you find the time for that? How do you find the time for this if you; you're an advocate of don't quit your day job if you have one do a little side hustle and build this over time until it's safe to exit. How would you address that question but Scott I just don't have time? Scott: Yeah and I actually I address this on stage when I came to that point because I shared my story that I was working 60 plus hours a week for my father's company running I think was like 13, 14 guys at one time that were underneath me making sure that those jobs got done. So I was always the first one there and the last one to leave like always. On the side, I was building a house from scratch. I was like 25 years old. Joe: That took a little time. Scott: It took me 11 months. And I remember Joe my mother in law lived up on the Hill. She lived probably I don't know maybe 500 or 1,000 feet. She was up on a hill though and she could look down and see the property. We had two acres. And I remember one night I wanted to get this one spot on the house done outside. It was up in the peak. I had a 30-foot ladder up against the house and I had floodlights out there at 2 o'clock in the morning because I wanted to finish. She couldn't sleep because she was worried about me going to fall and I'm up there nailing up my siding because I wanted to get that peak done because I didn't want to come back to it the next day and do it. And then I got up at 6x o'clock and I went to work. So when people say I don't have time I don't have sympathy for that because you probably have time you just are not really wanting it bad enough in my eyes. You know what you're watching your TV show or maybe you're taking an extended lunch break or maybe you're just oh I need my 8 hours of sleep you know like get 6 for a month, right? I mean it's not going to kill you but if you really want it bad enough you will find the time. And I've done it. My photography business when I was learning that when I was getting ready to leave my job I was up till 2 o'clock in the morning figuring out Photoshop. I was figuring out how we were going to do billing for our customers. Like I was figuring out all that stuff late at night and then I'd get up and I'd go to my job because I wanted it so bad. And I was so interested in it because I wanted it so bad. Joe: Yeah you are preaching to the choir if I'm the choir right now because yeah look the thing that I see consistently I mean I've done this in my life you and I have been self-employed for about the same amount of time and it's always started with a side hustle and then work like crazy. As you are building that business you're not really making a whole lot of money. You're not taking anything out and oddly enough when you're making the most money is actually when you're not working as hard in my experience. Scott: Right. Joe: You get it up to that level and it starts to just; it's a scalable business. And with that scale, it's starting to generate enough revenue to kick off and then you can quit your day job and then you can live that lifestyle that you want. It's hard though when you're a hard worker and a hustler like yourself and like so many people that are listening. How do you shift from that I'm used to working, I love working, I'm going to work, I'm going to work, I'm going to work to I'm going to sit down and I'm going to have coffee and breakfast with my wife every day by the pool at 8 o'clock? Do you have the discipline to really reschedule your downtime? Scott: You definitely have to schedule it for sure. You have to schedule it and I'm getting better with that like I'm still not perfect Joe. I have to make sure that at 6 o'clock at night that's my cutoff. I'm not going to do anymore posting and I'm not going to do any more answering. It's hard because we can work as long as we want. And when you start to see momentum you want to work more because you want [inaudible 00:24:18.18]. But I've made it very, very clear in my life that I want to have that time. I literally wrote out a vision board and really I created a video years ago that I wanted to see come true. It wasn't like you know the woo-woo stuff but it was like what am I working towards. And one of them was having a coffee and breakfast with my wife. And so here we are many years later and literally, I just got in now. I mean I started my day today at 10 o'clock in the morning. I had a first interview at 10:00. I dropped my daughter off the school at about 7:45. My wife and I got back here. We went out to the pool. I had coffee. I was out there with the dogs. I had my laptop. I was answering a few emails; doing stuff. I'm out there chillin' with my wife hanging out. And that's what I want my life to be. Now could I be doing other things to try to make the Amazing Seller bigger or my e-commerce businesses bigger? Yes, I could but I choose to; like that's kind of like my time. You know what I mean? Joe: Right? Scott: And I do think it's hard. You have to be disciplined. A lot of people say Scott I could never do it. I would never get any work done. Then maybe you do need a job. Joe: I've heard that often. I couldn't work from home I could never get any work and that's just discipline. It's focus and discipline. Scott: 100%. Joe: We've gone from how do you find the time to do this extra side business and side hustle and grow it to how do you schedule your downtime so that you could work. You don't need to as much but scheduling your personal life to make sure that you're there for your family and things of that nature. My kids are older than you. Well, not actually mine are 16 and 18 right. You've got 21? Scott: 21, 14, and 11, yeah, Joe: So I've driven my kids to school from kindergarten right up until last year when my oldest got his license and it's an honor, right? It's a privilege and an honor to be able to do that. And when they look back someday that's what they're going to remember. They're not going to remember that Dad was making more money or something like that. So from finding time to scheduling time; your book specifically talks about all of that in your life and creating the mindset of action and everything you've done in your life. But can you address like a little bit of the how to's in terms of building that future proof business and the steps that you go through with the folks that are listening. Scott: Yeah. To me, it's very, very simple and even if you're looking at this because I know people listening here are probably looking to possibly buy a business or sell a business. Here's the deal. Like whenever you're looking at an opportunity you want to first see if there's a market already there. Like a lot of people say I want to invent a market. That's risky because we don't know; I mean if you ever listen to Shark Tank they always say has the market validated the product? No I don't have any sales it's in pre, or we're kind of building this thing out, it's in pre-production, or we're in like the pre-stage and they're like come back to us when you have sales that the market actually voted and said we actually want and need this. So the market is critical. You have to have a market. Now I'd like it to also be a submarket. So we could talk about like and I always talk about the bass fishing. So if we went like fishing we would niche it down into bass fishing. If we wanted to go one level deeper we could go kayak bass fishing. And then we can really own that category and then we can also build out of that category to serve a wider part of the market. But I always like to look at the market first. Then from there, I want to see what's the potential in the market? And that could be going to Amazon and seeing how the products are selling using a tool like Jungle Scout or whatever tool you want. We have these tools that let us know the market's buying these products. Now we can either sell those products ourselves as our own brand or we can affiliate market those products. We can do all kinds of things. So I want to validate that there are actually sales being made there. Joe: Let me just stop you for a second because some of the language you're using I don't know if everybody knows it. Talk about the affiliate marketing aspect of it because it's a brilliant path that you educate people on taking. Scott: And I'm going to be doing more of it Joe; I got to be honest with you. I was just thinking about this this morning I'm like man there's so many things that I could cover just for getting back from Brand Accelerator Live. People get stuck at the I've got to launch products or I've got to grow mine. If you bought a business; right now if you bought a business and you're thinking I don't want to launch a whole bunch of products because it's something a whole bunch of capital. Why not take the content side of things. Build out traffic and start putting out products that are related to your product as an affiliate bringing some revenue but also get them to vote that the products that you're putting out there from them they want to buy then you can private label them. So I think it's an easier way to get started. If you're just listening to this and you're getting started, the easiest ways to start looking at the market and how much traffic the market has. And then from there can you get in front of the market by getting attention by posting content, building an email list, like getting attention with influencer, whatever. Then you can start to say okay all these products I'm not going to private label all these it's going to cost me a small fortune. I'm going to start putting products out there like a kayak bass fishing boat. Like I might do that but I'm not going to sell it as my own but I might do an affiliate offer for it. So basically on Amazon, we can use their whole catalog. We can become an associate for them. And it's not going to be a ton of money it's 4%, 8%, depending on where your bracket is; the category but it's a nice easy way anyone can get started. It's not going to cost you hardly anything to set up a website and to start posting content. You can write it yourself or have someone else write it and then just start building that over time. Joe: It's a great way to go back to discovering your market as well because as you niche it down people are going to buy certain things and you can say okay well that one's much more popular than the other. Scott: 100%. Joe: The tools like Jungle Scout do that very, very well. But this is an action you've got proof in your own bank account which ones they like more. What about the multiple channels. You and I have talked about this before. We talked about channel diversification. That's something you talk about quite a bit here as well. Scott: Yeah. Well, I think again there's a lot of businesses that are very successful and you sell these businesses just Amazon FBA. We got someone in my inner circle that bought I think 3 businesses from you guys already. Joe: 3. Scott: Big businesses too; crazy amounts. I mean one of them is doing like 6,000 units a day like insane. Joe: Yeah. Scott: And you know what I mean? So it's massive. So the potential there is huge but also I look at like there's a little bit of risk there because if that channel decides to go away or they shut your account down there is a potential. So I want to build a back end support there in some kind. So I want to start building content. I want to start getting my own traffic so that way there I could lead people over to my Shopify store or I could leave people over to my channel if something shall happen. Now if it doesn't; great, keep using that. And I don't; I never tell anyone not to use the channel. Use the channel. Leverage the heck out of it. Drive traffic to Amazon. Build up your rankings. Do all of that stuff. But I do think that having your own email list is a must. I think having your own content, your own home base I call it; your own blog, your web site so this way you control that asset. And to be honest with you Joe like I'm really interested lately and I think I talked to you about it, content sites to me are never going anywhere. We're always going to have content sites. We're always going to have information that people are going to be searching for. So for me what I'm looking at doing is starting something and building it over the course of 12 to 18 months. Now listen to what I just said there over 12 to 18 months not 3 days or 30 days. It's going to take time for the search engines to kind of pick it up and get it indexed and all that stuff. And if I can build that piece of property like I used to do in the construction days; I find a piece of property, I build a house on it, I get some revenue coming in by renting it out, and then I might want to sell it. That's kind of what I'm thinking about. And there's ways you can do that without even having to launch a physical product until you get to the 12, 18th month. Then you can decide what you want to do. But you can start getting revenue coming in from affiliate offers, from AdThrive, Mediavine, any of these other networks just from the content coming in. So for people that say I can't get started because I don't have the capital, I don't have the know-how, I don't have the time, do something like even if it's just building out a content site over the next 12 months do that. Just do that. Joe: Yeah I think again taking action, right? Scott: Yeah. Joe: We just got to say that whole lot here; the take action effect. This book as I've read it and as I've talked to you, you are an interesting mix of inspiration and how-to; and you are the book. That's what emanates. You call it a pivot I call it it is what you are, you're inspiring people to go beyond their current capabilities or to get started and take some action but you're also teaching them how to do it. So it's a nice blend of both and was that the main objective of the book itself? Scott: It was actually a little bit difficult and to be honest with you Joe because I didn't want to just be let me show you how to start a business. I wanted it to be for someone also that has a 7 figure business right now that are 100% dependent on Amazon they read the book and they go oh I can do all of these other things and then probably bring in more revenue, bring in more traffic, get a better multiple when I go to Joe Valley and Quiet Light. So I was looking at two different paths. So as you're reading the book you're going to hear me talk about if you're feeling stuck at your corporate job right now and you feel like you can't get out of it here's what you could do but if you already have a business you should do this too. So it's kind of like you're serving two camps. And it was kind of hard when I was going down that path because I wanted to really talk to both people not just the person starting. Joe: Yeah and I think it's an important message for both. For those that have bought a business that want to diversify beyond Amazon and those that are listening to their spouse and that spouse is saying honey we've got a great gig here you've got health insurance and a retirement plan are you crazy you're going to buy an Amazon business and [inaudible 00:34:05.8]. No, you teach them how to do something on the side as a side hustle and let it grow and take less risk but still have that that additional income down the road or a decent exit as well which boosts the retirement plan. Right, Scott? The book itself again folks it's called The Take Action Effect; Mr. Scott Voelker from The Amazing Seller and beyond. The beyond card is you just do so many other things. How do people find the book; where can they go, what do they need to do to get this in their hands and learn everything you've talked about? Scott: Yeah, just go to TakeActionEffect.com and there's just a simple page there. It'll tell you a little bit more about the book and it'll lead you over to most likely Amazon you get paperback hardcover or the Kindle; pretty affordable to be able to take this information. I don't think people are taking the value in a book is much as they should. It is a way for you to really understand me and my story but also who I've helped and who I want to help. And it allows us to start that relationship because I'm all about relationships. And I want to be able to build a relationship with you way before you would ever hire me or come to one of my workshops or inner circle or whatever. And this book is a way to do it. It's a really, really small investment to be able to really get you thinking differently because the way I look at it Joe is we're installing the Take Action mindset. We're taking this to where you think you know what I don't think I can do this and by the time you get done with even the first; probably quarter of the book you're going to feel like you're going to conquer the world. And that's what it's really all about. Now, Joe, before I do end this I'm going to ask you a question. Joe: Yes? Scott: I want to know one of your take action moments. Joe: Okay. Scott: What's something that you can recall that you're like if that never happened my life would be totally different. Joe: Let's see. Well going back to your vision board I did something very similar once upon a time and it was a Tony Robbins program writing down my goals and envisioning what they are. And I literally; and this is I described my life; I put it all down from the lifestyle that I wanted to live and the type of woman I wanted to marry. Lo, and behold within 6 months I met her. Scott: Wow. Joe: I showed her the list maybe 18 months later and it described her to a T. So that is a Take Action moment for me in terms of writing that list down. Now it changed over the years in terms of my goals. At one point I wanted to have the boat in the harbor in Portland Maine. Well, I live in North Carolina right now that's not really going to happen. And I didn't want it once I had kids. I couldn't really spend much time with them on a boat in that situation. The other one Scott when I'm at Brand Accelerator Live is; I mentioned it before we started recording, is that I have taken action on moving forward with my book as well. We're not going to talk too much about it. I'm going to drop a little hint in here and then I'll be quiet for 12 months. But it's something that I've talked about for many years and I've tried and I've tried and I just haven't gotten it done. And you've inspired me to get it done. And some of your tips in the book itself have allowed me to sort of bullet point what I need to do to take more action and get it done; so two impacts right there and I think is going to make a huge difference for me. But again it's not always; like Rachel says it's not always about me or her. It's about how you can help others as well. And I think you're doing that. You're helping others first and it's benefiting you. And I think it's the best way to go about it. So thank you, Scott, for being my friend, for being my colleague, for being on the Quiet Light podcast. I hope to see you on it again. Scott: Thank you so much, Joe. I appreciate it, man.   Links and Resources: The Take Action Effect Scott's Website Scott's Podcast Scott's YouTube Channel

Phil’s guest on this episode of the IT Career Energizer podcast is Scott Jehl. He is a designer and developer working at Filament Group.  He is a tireless advocate of practices that ensure web access for all and is always chipping away at open source projects with his colleagues at Filament.   He is also author of Responsible Responsive Design, co-author of Designing with Progressive Enhancement and a frequent presenter at conferences throughout the world.    In this episode, Phil and Scott Jehl discuss why you need to follow and engage on Twitter. The benefits of sharing what you know, as you learn it. How to give succinct, yet informative, speeches. Scott and Phil also discuss the challenges the roll-out of superfast networks is going to throw up.   KEY TAKEAWAYS: (3.41) TOP CAREER TIP Stay active on Twitter. A lot of important stuff starts with conversations on Twitter. So, stay engaged there. Be curious, listen and ask questions.   Share what you know as you learn. It does not matter if others are likely to already know or not. Putting it in writing will benefit you and, usually, many others.   (5.24) WORST CAREER MOMENT When Scott first got started as a public speaker he had a deeply embarrassing experience. Despite preparing well, he found himself only halfway through his slide deck with just 5 minutes to go.   He tried to bring it all together. But, he still ended up looking pretty bad in front of hundreds of his peers. Scott has now come up with a way of preparing his speeches so that he never overruns. A technique he shares in the podcast.   (7.44) CAREER HIGHLIGHT Scott and the Filament Group were lucky to be at the forefront of responsive design and working with the Boston Globe. Their readers mainly used IE, which at the time, had no support for media queries and CSS.   Scott was able to write a script to address that complex and difficult issue. It was exciting, challenging and interesting work.   (9.43) THE FUTURE OF CAREERS IN I.T Scott sees it being even easier for I.T professionals to work remotely and flexibly, in the future. So maintaining the right work-life balance will become far easier.   He is really excited to see bigger audiences, throughout the world, gaining access to the web. It is amazing the difference it is making to people’s lives. The emergence of new browser standards and technologies is having a hugely positive impact.   (11.47) THE REVEAL What first attracted you to a career in I.T.? – Scott’s background in graphic design led naturally to a career in I.T. What’s the best career advice you received? – You can do anything in two weeks. In the podcast, Scott explains how any IT professional can use this advice to achieve more. What would you do if you started your career now? – Scott says he would take some of the online boot camp tutorials, early on to accelerate his career. What are your current career objectives? – Right now, Scott is most interested in performance and accessibility. In particular, how devices can parse and evaluate script fast enough. What’s your number one non-technical skill? – Technical and narrative writing. How do you keep your own career energized? – Listening to podcasts. They expose him to people working on all aspects of the web. What do you do away from technology? – Scott likes to spend a lot of time with his family. He also enjoys surfing, hiking and cooking.   (19.34) FINAL CAREER TIP Share what you learn, write a blog. Doing that has greatly benefitted Scott’s career and that of others.   BEST MOMENTS (4.18) – Scott - “Be curious, ask questions, share what you know as you learn it.” (13.11) – Scott - “You can do a heck of a lot in just two weeks, especially with a good team.” (14.11) – Scott - “Boot camp tutorials are a great way to learn and accelerate your career, especially early on.” (17.50) – Scott - “Write about what you are working on, it is the best way to get clarity of the problem.” (18.53) – Scott - “Pay attention to what other people are working on.” (19.34) – Scott - “Write or blog to share whatever you’ve learned.”   ABOUT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil Burgess is an independent IT consultant who has spent the last 20 years helping organisations to design, develop and implement software solutions.  Phil has always had an interest in helping others to develop and advance their careers.  And in 2017 Phil started the I.T. Career Energizer podcast to try to help as many people as possible to learn from the career advice and experiences of those that have been, and still are, on that same career journey.   CONTACT THE HOST – PHIL BURGESS Phil can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/philtechcareer LinkedIn: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/philburgess Facebook: https://facebook.com/philtechcareer Instagram: https://instagram.com/philtechcareer Website: https://itcareerenergizer.com/contact   Phil is also reachable by email at phil@itcareerenergizer.com and via the podcast’s website, https://itcareerenergizer.com Join the I.T. Career Energizer Community on Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/groups/ITCareerEnergizer   ABOUT THE GUEST – Scott Jehl Scott Jehl is a designer and developer working at Filament Group.  He is a tireless advocate of practices that ensure web access for all and is always chipping away at open source projects with his colleagues at Filament.   He is also author of Responsible Responsive Design, co-author of Designing with Progressive Enhancement and a frequent presenter at conferences throughout the world.   CONTACT THE GUEST – Scott Jehl Scott Jehl can be contacted through the following Social Media platforms:   Twitter: https://twitter.com/scottjehl GitHub: https://github.com/scottjehl Website: https://scottjehl.com/

Do you have a signature style? Katie is rarely seen without a hoodie, and Kerry wears sleeveless tops to showcase her tattoo. In this episode, we talk with bowtie enthusiast Scott Monty, neoclassical advisor, CEO, and head writer of the Full Monty newsletter. We learn when Scott’s affinity for bowties began, how he got involved with a secret Sherlock Holmes society, and much more. In this episode we learned: Which secret societies Scott belongs to How many bowties Scott owns How many impressions Scott has in his arsenal Scott’s opinion on steak and kidney pie Whether he does, in fact, own -- and wear -- a dead man’s suit Links from the episode: https://www.beautiesltd.com/ Want to know more about Scott? You can find him at: Website: https://www.scottmonty.com/ Twitter: @scottmonty Newsletter: https://www.scottmonty.com/p/subscribe.html This episode of Punch Out With Katie and Kerry is sponsored by Trust Insights. Are you feeling less than confident in your marketing metrics, looking for some help automating your tasks, or wondering what topics are most important to your audience? Using machine learning and artificial intelligence, Trust Insights will help you light up your dark data. Visit trustinsights.ai/punchingout for more information. Punch Out With Katie and Kerry (#PunchOut) is the show that dives deeper into topics you care about. We don't ask the questions everyone else does. We get to the real insights (and the weird hobbies, the guilty pleasures, the secret side hustles...the good stuff)! We find out what really makes your favorite people tick. Punch out with Katie and Kerry! Have a cool hobby or side interest you want to talk about on the show? Let us know: Web: www.punchoutwithus.comEmail: punchoutwithus@gmail.com Hosts: Kerry O’Shea Gorgone (@KerryGorgone) & Katie Robbert (@katierobbert)

To find out more about the Wisconsin Great River Road please check out the website www.WiGRR.com to find out more about the Ellsworth Cooperative Creamery please check out their website https://www.ellsworthcheese.com/Bob: There are probably a lot of people around the country who don’t know what a cheese curd is. Scott Sweere from Ellsworth Cooperative Creamery. What is a cheese curd?Scott: A cheese curd is a dairy product that is agitated, warmed, curdled. And with a few of the primary ingredients taken out, it will result in a cheese curd. Bob: All right, Scott. I’m going to stop you right there, because that’s totally wrong. A cheese curd is delicious. You bite into it and it squeaks. You can take those things in your pocket with you wherever you go. You can smuggle them into a movie theater. Cheese curds are wonderful.Scott: That sounded a whole lot better than my answer.Bob: I would have to agree with you. So why are they squeaky, then? If you’re taking all that stuff out of them, what makes them squeaky?Scott: That’s just the final product. Like I said, it’s a clean, finished product so you don’t have that whey in the way anymore.Bob: So you’re getting that whey out of the way in order to make it taste as good as it does?Scott: That’s correct.Bob: Wonderful. So is that a process that you guys invented? Are cheese curds something that Ellsworth Cooperative Creamery invented?Scott: No. It’s an ancient story. The story goes that there was a goatherder. He had milk in a leather pouch, and he was traveling. That gave the agitation that he needed. He was also very warm, and that began to curdle that milk. And as that happened, the leather leaked the whey out and left a curd. It was kind of an accident that resulted in a pretty fine product. I love the squeaky cheese.Bob: Do you like the deep-fried cheese curds?Scott: As much as my waistline doesn’t, I love them.Bob: Talking about travel, I know that you’re a motorcyclist. You’ve probably had a lot of chance to cruise up and down the Great River Road. Do you have a specific destination when you hop on your bike?Scott: If it’s just a quick getaway with the wife, we like to head down to Nelson, stop for some ice cream, maybe a barbeque sandwich, and then it’s a happy ride home. If I’m doing a weekend, we always try to go to La Crosse and enjoy some of the things that are going on there and some of the nightlife. We try to make a few stops along the way. Bucknuckles and what used to be called Hansen’s Hold Up is now Vino Over The Valley. Those are always great stops and very biker-friendly and just off the main road a little bit. The Alma Overlook, we always end up stopping there. It’s nice to stop in Prescott; I always stop there. That’s kind of the beginning of things for me. We run into friends and run into people. It’s more of a starting point; we’ll say, ‘Meet us in Prescott at noon.’ Then we head out from there and then head down. Some of those places that I mentioned are almost like must-stops where we always end up there. Bob: Just taking in the beauty of what the Wisconsin Great River Road has to offer. I think it’s funny that a guy that works for a cooperative creamery … The first thing you mentioned is ice cream. That must be in your blood. But then you mentioned a couple of other Wisconsin treasures as well such as stopping at a winery and stopping and having some of the nightlife, which beer is a big thing in the State of Wisconsin. You’re kind of tying in a bunch of different Wisconsin products into your trips.Scott: Absolutely. In fact, I rode with some guys from Minnesota last year pretty extensively. They were always [saying], ‘I want to come to Wisconsin. This is where it’s all happening. There is way more fun going on Wisconsin. Let’s go to your side.’ I’d like to be fair and come over to their side from time to time, but we always end up in Wisconsin.Bob: Where does somebody find the stuff we’ve been talking about?Scott: You’ll want to check out ellsworthcheese.com. It’s as simple as that. We have a very simple process online to go through that. But you can always call us here at the store and we can take your information and ship you directly from here as well. Our number is 715-273-4311.Bob: Only a million pounds of milk a day and 180,000 pounds of cheese curds a day. What are you guys doing with your time?Scott: Sometimes I kind of wonder that myself. I can’t find any.

With a resume that includes a Harvard MBA, a position at the World Bank and a stint as an entrepreneur, Elizabeth White didn't expect to be unprepared for retirement. She also didn't expect to find so many people in her same position: broke, underemployed and part of America's retirement crisis. Her new book is called "55, Underemployed, and Faking Normal: Your Guide to a Better Life." The following is an edited transcript of her conversation with Marketplace's Amy Scott. Amy Scott: "Faking Normal" comes from your own experience with underemployment. What made you decide to write this book?Elizabeth White: I had a really cool career. Worked at the World Bank, was an entrepreneur. And then the 2008-2009 Great Recession hit. I went from a very good income to zero. At a point of just despair, I wrote an essay, and that essay described what it's like to land here. Since it's not yet really a national conversation, and all the stories we have on retirement are the beaming boomers clinking champagne glasses on a cruise, or they're eating cat food under a bridge. There's sort of no middle.Scott: But the middle you found was a lot of people like you who had been very successful and suddenly found that the job market wasn't working for them and they didn't have enough retirement savings. What did you find has led to this phenomenon? Was it a matter of individual failure to plan and to save or something systemic?White: We all could have saved more. And I always say that. So there's absolutely an individual aspect. But when there are tens of millions of people who have landed here, and you look at things like disappearing pensions, escalating cost of housing and health care. And I tell people if you rifle through my life, you'll see all kinds of dumb things I did, but we are not primarily here because of too many trips to Starbucks.Scott: And you mention in the book that it's much worse for women. We're expected to live longer and on less money. Even Social Security benefits are smaller for women, and especially for women of color. Why is that?White: We are often in and out of the workforce, taking care of children and taking care of parents, not getting the same kinds of advancement opportunities. This sort of inequality accumulates over a lifetime. So you have higher numbers of women, 65 and over, living in poverty or are destitute.Scott: You offer a lot of solutions in the book, but some of them might be a little bit hard to swallow for people who have had successful careers and may not want to apply for food stamps. But you write that only a third of seniors who qualify for food stamps actually apply. What are some of the surprising fixes that you found?White: I had to learn to get off my throne. And this is not easy when you've just been comfortable most of your adult life. So I tried to look around at opportunities that are out there, both in housing and income, and when it gets very dire, like food stamps. Because many of us are going to have to really take a hard look at how we live, and do we need a roommate? And altogether in the book I think I counted 125 online resources that I've identified.Scott: You wrote this viral essay, you had a really successful TED talk and now this book. How are you doing now?White: You know, it's still a bit feast or famine. But the light that I see at the end of the tunnel, I now don't think it's a train barreling down on me. It's not a path I would have chosen. But I feel like I'm on the path I'm supposed to be on.

In this episode Wes and Scott discuss specialization vs generalization - the different ways one can be a generalist or a specialist, advantages and disadvantages to both, and, ultimately, which is the better career path. Freshbooks - Sponsor Get a 30 day free trial of Freshbooks at freshbooks.com/syntax and put SYNTAX in the “How did you hear about us?” section. Dev Lifts — Sponsor Dev Lifts - Thad and JC are on a mission to make web developers healthy. They’re currently offering Personal Training and Nutrition Plans as well as a new program called Fit.Start. Get 50% off with the coupon code “tasty”. Check it out today! Show Notes 4:18 - What is a specialist? Someone who is very good at one or two things Can be very lucrative if you’ve taken the time to become well-known in you’re industry 12:20 - What is a generalist? Two ways to look at generalists: Someone who tries to do a little bit of everything (e.g. a developer who does Wordpress, Drupal, Django, Rails, etc.) Someone who builds related skills around one area (e.g. a JavaScript developer who can code up a backend and a frontend) There will be more jobs available for the dev with tightly integrated skills in related areas than a true “jack of all trades”. 22:22 - Frontend vs Backend Frontend Frameworks (React, Vue, etc.) CSS Performance Animations Backend Web servers Serverless / AWS Scaling Frameworks Performance Databases Docker CI 26:50 - When to widen your focus When you are complacent with your mastery You need a skill to get something done. For fun For a specific job 30:42 - When to narrow your focus You don’t feel control over your skills You are missing out on employment because a lack of skills in one department You feel overwhelmed by the options available You want to be the "go to person” For fun 35:48 - How to master and expand Focus on one skill at at time. Master it and then expand on your skillset Find satellite skills - things that work in harmony 38:47 - Scott’s journey 42:31 - Wes’ journey 44:55 - How to know where to focus Necessity will dictate a lot - what do you need right now? Job postings - you can stack the deck in your favor by learning React. Once you are in, you’re can lean anything you want. Follow your heart - but have a plan 51:03 - Should I be a generalist or a specialist? Wes: There is nothing wrong with having a large skillset as long as you aren’t mediocre at everything. If you’re optimizing for hire-ability I think having a defined focus on either front-end or back-end is best, but still an understanding of how the other works. Ideally you have 1) Very good JS skills, 2) an understanding of how things work on both ends. Scott: You can do either, but whatever you do, do it well. It’s easier to do a few things well than many things well. That said there are some virtuosic devs out there who can be amazing at many things, however those people are not common. Most people have holes in their armor. Links JAMstack_conf ××× SIIIIICK ××× PIIIICKS ××× Scott: Great British Baking Show Wes: 1 Pointless Packaging Instagram / 2 Ozark Season 2 Shameless Plugs Scott’s React Testing for Beginners Course Wes’ Advanced React Course Tweet us your tasty treats! Scott’s Instagram LevelUpTutorials Instagram Wes’ Instagram Wes’ Twitter Wes’ Facebook Scott’s Twitter Make sure to include @SyntaxFM in your tweets

There's something to learn by listening to any individual's success story, but when the story starts with being kicked out of high school at 15, one can get pulled especially quickly into hearing how it panned out. I found myself at the edge of my seat while sitting across from Pivotal Coaching Co-Founder Scott Hopson for the latest #WeGotGoals podcast episode interview because that was exactly how his story started. If you're in the training industry, maybe you've attended continuing education sessions through NASM, EXOS, The Gray Institute, or Power Plate International; if so, you've probably studied Hopson's material or done a workshop with him. He also helped launch Midtown Athletic Club, Chicago's first urban sports resort with 575,000 square feet of health and wellness amenities. And, as the co-founder of PTA Global, he's coached countless personal trainers in a unique approach focused on behavioral science. Essentially, Hopson has worked his entire professional life on becoming the best version of himself as a personal trainer, but he's also dedicated his life to the fitness industry from a practical coaching, educational, and business perspective. And with the prestigious laundry list of titles he possesses, you can imagine why I found it unbelievable that it all started with being kicked out of school. But, as Hopson told me during the interview, when he decided he wanted to turn his life around, he started at the source where he felt like he was always home, the one place where he felt "in flow" amidst it all - with his coaches when he was playing sports. He held onto the memory of being coached and let that passion drive him forward. Now, helping others achieve their movement goals makes him feel alive, and he's equally passionate about training other coaches to bring out their fullest potential and thus, inspire clients to become the best version of themselves too. The most interesting thing about our interview, though, had nothing to do with fitness and everything to do with the human behind the science of coaching. In order to go after the "what" (whether that's a specific fitness goal or any other transformational goal in your life), "you have to articulate the 'why,'" Hopson said. Ultimately, understanding that it's not about him as a coach at all when he's in a coaching session has helped him understand how to navigate every other kind of partnership and communication in his life. "If I'm going to coach you, I've got to create an environment for you to train yourself, because I can't do it," Hopson said. "That'd be quite arrogant and ignorant of me to believe I can. If I create an environment for you to change yourself, that affects how I communicate to you, how I listen, do I have empathy? And I apply that to my business relationships. Am I listening? Am I willing to consider the possibility that they don't only have a point of view, but they might actually change mine?" Hopson also mentioned that he leans into his intuition to help guide his unique, nonlinear career path and what big goals he goes after. "I'm at my happiest, and in flow, where nothing else matters than that present moment, when I'm being of service to someone as a coach," he said. I commented on how lucky he was to know that feeling - a feeling of just being in total flow. He replied that we all have it, in some way, shape or form. We just have to notice and be open to tapping into it. "It doesn’t happen every day, [but] there are things you can do to connect you back to it if you lose it – whether it’s prayer or meditation, or whatever it is that connects you to that thing," Hopson said. Listen to Scott Hopson's episode of the #WeGotGoals podcast to hear one success story you likely won't ever forget. You can listen anywhere you get your podcasts (did we mention, we're on Spotify now?) If you like what you hear, please leave us a rating or a review! We'd really appreciate it. And stick around until the end of the episode, where you’ll hear a goal from one of you, our listeners. (Want to be featured on a future episode? Send a voice memo with a goal you’ve crushed, a goal you’re eyeing, or your best goal-getting tip to cindy@asweatlife.com.)   --- Transcript: Jeana: Welcome to #WeGotGoals a podcast by aSweatLife.com on which we talk to high-achievers about their goals. I’m Jeana Anderson Cohen. With me I have Maggie Umberger and Cindy Kuzma. Maggie: Morning Jeana! Cindy: Good morning Jeana! Jeana: Morning! Maggie, you talked to Scott Hobson this week, right? Maggie: I did! I spoke with Scott Hobson and he has a lot of roles which I will try to give you in the upfront here but he will do a better job of talking about the many companies that he has started. And from his career trajectory, he’s been a personal trainer, he has coached coaches. He still loves to coach people on how to help other people achieve their goals. He is the founder, co-founder of PTA Global as well as Pivotal Coaching. But essentially what he does, is he helps people move better.  Whether that is individuals or people within big gyms or at really large conferences and for fitness professionals across the world. He’s been to 40 countries to teach. He’s also an author, a writer, and a speaker. And I was so lucky to get to speak to him about his goals of which he has many. Jeana: But he also failed big once, right Maggie? Maggie: I didn’t realize this. I didn’t know this until we were talking for this interview, but he was kicked out of high school. And he kind of tossed it out there and I was honestly shocked because he has done so many things. He is the co-founder of Pivotal coaching which is a world-wide coaching business now. And I was honestly surprised because he is so accomplished. He’s so well spoken, he’s so driven. But I learned that he did get kicked out of high school and it took something for him to realize that in order for him to turn his life around he needed to find the thing that made him feel like he was in flow, is what he calls it. And when he feels like he’s in flow, he knows he’s doing the right thing and the only thing that he felt that kind of sensibility around was when with his rugby team and when he was being coached by his coaches. He felt like he was at home and he wanted to do that more. He wanted to do that in any capacity he could, so he became a personal trainer. He kept going back to school, he kept learning more and his fervor for learning more about human movement and just how people behave around fitness. It’s a much broader topic for him then just like what happens in a coaching session. And he’s really turned that enthusiasm, is what he calls it. This spirit for understanding how people move into his life-long career. Which is huge leaps and bounds away from getting kicked out of high school years ago. Jeana: And he feels like it’s important to coach the humans who are doing the movement and not actually coach the movement. Which is an interesting semantic issue, it’s an interesting word choice. What does he mean by that and how does that fit into his overall philosophy? Maggie: So Scott has the wherewithal to know that what happens in the gym is only a tiny part of your day. And he knows that as long as you just throw anatomical cues at people it’s going to go over their head. They have to find their why. And so he’s become really, really passionate about helping other coaches learn how to speak to people to meet them where they are and to really influence and inspire change for people on a greater level than just going through the motions of a program, of going through the workout. We say this all the time at aSweatLife that fitness can be the catalyst to you living your best life and that what happens in the gym can absolutely affect you life outside of the gym if you let it. If you want it to and he has started to focus a lot of the training and the protocols within Pivotal Coaching around human behavior and how can what coaches do in your training sessions influence how that training session goes. It's so much more of an emotional thing than just a physical thing which is interestingly a large part of the conversation that we had was just about how connected to his own emotional well-being he is. Like when he’s not in flow as I was saying, he knows it and he needs to make a change. And that's what happened when he was director of a really large facility that he's still incredibly involved with and he loves it very much. But when he was doing a role that he could do but he felt a little bit more stressed by being in it. It was apparent to him that he needed to make a change and he could be a better asset in a different capacity. So that when he could actually get back to working with people, for people and helping. Really his passion is working with coaches then he could really feel, do better work, help people on a greater scale. And so that's been his guiding force, like getting within the process, finding the joy, finding the payoff in the process is what he says. Not just that the end goal or whatever the thing he's trying to accomplish gets checked off the list. It's about feeling the way he needs to feel all along the way. Jeana: What an incredible story of overcoming obstacles and finding your true path I can't wait to hear Maggie talk to Scott. And stick around at the end of the episode we’re hearing from you listeners. Maggie: Thanks so much for joining me Scott, on the We’ve Got Goals Podcast. Scott: I'm excited. Maggie: We're excited to have you! So Scott for the listeners at home I know that you do a lot of jobs and that they probably sometimes they overlap, sometimes they’re different. You're a one-on-one coach, your a group coach, you have managed big facilities, you also coached on a global scale and your a founder of a couple companies. For the listeners can you give a little brief description of, I know you said what you do on a daily basis is different, but how you spend your days and what your general title is? Scott: Yeah, it’s wonderful. Well I mean the single biggest thing right now is I’m a co-founder of Pivotal. We’re a development company. And our mission is really simple it's to empower people to fulfill their potential. And our clientele if you will is anyone that has a passion for movement. So what I do on a daily basis could be considered coaching - one-on-one, groups, and teams from everyday people at health clubs to Olympic-level teams I work with all of them. But my real passion is teaching and you could say I coach the coaches. So what I travel the world doing, I think I've been to about 40 different countries by now, I coach coaches on how to be a better coach. We can talk later about what that includes maybe. But I also consult.  Having been an operator for 20 years building health clubs, big beautiful sports resorts around the world. I know what it takes to actually build facilities, operate facilities, manage people, sales marketing, membership and on it goes. But ultimately I think it all comes down to coaching. I’m in the people industry and my job is to build meaningful relationships and I think that’s what coaches do. I don’t know if that makes sense, but that’s kind of what on any given day one of those is what I’m doing or all of those is what I’m doing. Maggie: That’s fascinating.  Not only the breadth of what you do but the depth to which you do it. So like you're talking about working on the business side of the athletic club and building out a club. And then also building out an amazing coaching staff and helping people become better coaches. And then helping individuals also reach their fitness goals. It just runs the gamut. Scott: Yeah, it does. Maggie: Did you start as a personal trainer yeah in terms of profession? Scott: Yeah, in terms of profession that's the first real professional job I had. But I've been in the movement industry my whole life the only thing that's really kept me sane through life's adventures that don't all start out the way you want them to. But that one kind of bedrock of always connecting to why I'm here has been either playing sport, coaching sport, moving, coaching people, something to do with this idea of I'm here to move and I'm here to help people move. Not just physically but towards their dreams in life, you know? So 1998 is when I became a personal trainer and fitness instructor in the UK, in London. But immediately, the minute I was in the industry I knew this was only part of what I was going to do here. And that's when I went back to school to become a physical education teacher. Which is the problem when you get kicked out of high school at 15. Maggie: Wait a minute, should we go back and ask about that? Scott: There would need to be some whiskey in the room.  Yeah you're talking to a guy that didn't even graduate high school at 15. I left and then when I realized “oh, I probably should have stuck around” I was 24, 25 and I decided I wanted to go back and become a coach and a physical education teacher. So the problem is that you've got to graduate high school first. So believe it or not I was a 25 year old in school with a bunch of teenagers. Maggie: Wow! Scott: Yeah, that’s where it started for me. Actually, I answer it that way because that’s where it started, was the realization that I needed to do something different with my life. And I found out pretty quickly it was in this area of movement and coaching. That was my only real love in life, was playing sport and being coached.  So how do I do that, Okay I'll go to university. Okay, how do you do that, you’ve got to graduate high school. Problem, big problem. So I had to go back in order to go forwards and then it's been an unbelievable journey since then just exploring all the possibilities in this industry, you know? And there's multiple Industries- it's not just fitness, it's not just performance, it’s wellness, it's all of it really. You know? Maggie: Oh, yeah. And it’s a huge world. And it can feel, it seems like you have this outlook that is just wide-eyed and excited versus daunted. You know, because you talk about there being so many facets to movement, and to health and wellness. That I can get intimidated by where do I spend my time? Scott: Where do I begin? Maggie: What to learn. Oh my god, there is so much to learn. Scott: There is. Maggie: But, based on what I’ve seen and how you have grown your career. You’ve just gone after the things you wanted to go after. And created your career based on what excites you. Scott: That’s probably quite accurate actually. For me we’ve also got passion. But I’ve kind of shifted. I think passion is a good thing. If you aint got it, it’s too darn hard to do anything. You know? Maggie: Yeah. Scott: But for me it’s become more enthusiasm. And it sounds like semantics but that word. When you’re enthusiastic about something. Like it literally means to be in spirit, right? It means to be, the payoff is in the process. I think you've got to passionately follow where the payoff is in the process. Whatever that is in your life. Like that burning desire to do something just because the act of doing it is the payoff. And that really sums up my career. Every few years there seems to be another door opens or something says no, you should take a left here. When my best laid plans said to take a right but something says in me says no, you’re supposed to follow that. It leads to failure, a ton actually but if your enthusiastic. The saying about enthusiasm, it's the ability to keep falling on your face and not care anyway. That’s a big part of enthusiasm. Maggie: Well, I think that kind of transitions to the question that we ask on #WeGotGoals, which is what's one big goal that you're proud to say you've accomplished and how did you get there? Scott: Wow, that's I knew you were going to ask it and it's surprisingly difficult to answer, right because you don't want to sound trite or have too much levity. But the reality is there's two things that all stand out. One is, one of the company’s that I'm a founder of is PTA Global, Personal Training Academy Global, we launched that out of nothing. We literally traveled the world.  Me and my five brothers who created it. Not biological brothers and we asked every health club we had worked with in 40 different countries. What are your problems? What are your pains? And we built personal training certification to answer their problems. Not just based on whatever we thought was the best way to train. We actually tried to build something on what people needed rather than what we thought. Then we went out and recruited 26 of the best educators in our industry. Many of whom we were told they won’t even be in the same room as each other. They had conflicting opinions, philosophies, they argue. We got them all in the same room to write PTA Global. All of them in the same room and we launched it in 2009 which was the worst economic time. Little did we know what was coming.  And now we're 35, 40 countries, you know? And it all just came from sharing a common purpose, you know what I mean? That drive, that desire to do something. So that stands out professionally as the best thing I've done in my career so far. Is to truly just go all in, we all quit our jobs with salaries and put all our chips in. And said it's this or nothing. Just once we have to try and do the right thing, rather than to do things right and it cost us everything we had. If we didn't sell, we didn't eat. If it wasn't successful, it was on us there was no one to blame, no corporate structure or nothing. It was incredible! I'll tell you that's the biggest achievement in my career other than being in it in the first place. Because it wasn't easy for me to be in it in the first place you know I talked about getting kicked out of school and I had to go back to college. I was the first person in my entire family history that has ever done anything outside of high school. And I think just having to pay for your own way you know what I mean despite life willingness to say you can't do it. Maggie: Where did you learn that? Where do you think that drive comes from? That just openness to enthusiasm and willingness to lean into it. Scott: Truthfully, I think for me it was just not failing a lot, but really discovering who I was in the first. I think some people it's wonderful they seem to have the playbook, they come with it. They can be like oh this is what it's like to be a good person. Or this is what it's like to follow your dreams. But that wasn't my experience. My experience was a lot of failure and a lot of pain and alot of looking at who I was at first. And then finally when you hit it enough bumps you say holy crap I’ve got to change something. The second part is you can’t do it alone. I've been very blessed to have people that showed up right on time. When I needed help so I think surrounding yourself with the people that you hope to become you know what I mean. I mean truly looking at people, I don't know what it is that you have but I want that. Whether it's their spiritual fitness, their ability to be kind, their ability to be successful in business. Like you clearly have something I don't, where I lack or and I'm unable to see. I should probably surround myself with people like you and try to learn it, you know? And it's really those two ingredients and that burning desire. For me to pick up a book and study coaching and movement or isn't a drudge, it's a joy. You know what I mean? When I'm bored it's the first thing I want to do. Wow I’d love to learn more about [...] or how did that Olympic coach win it for the fourth year in a row. Whatever. I'm fascinated with not just human movement but with the human being inside it. So I think when you're fascinated, I think that curiosity, that’s the word. Maggie: Yeah. Scott: You’ve got to have a relentless curiosity for whatever you’re passionate about. You know? Maggie: Yeah, absolutely! Did PTA Global come about, you said you visited countries you visited the big clubs that you worked with and answered some of their problems or their needs. Was it also an equal part you finding those extra elements that you were excited about. Like what's inside a human being and how can we help them feel their best while they're working out. Those little nuances, did that kind of come together as the marriage. Is that what PTA Global is? Scott: 100%, yes. if you're going to solve a problem, you’ve got to first know what that problem is. And the key to getting clarity is to ask better questions. If you keep asking the same questions, it doesn’t matter about how many ways you phrase it. So part of the fascination was what are the real problems of our industry. We’ve got 300 times more education than we’ve ever had, we’ve got more gyms and health clubs than we’ve ever had and we’ve got more billions of dollars invested in health and wellness than we’ve ever had. Yet we’ve got less human beings moving than anytime in human history. We’ve got more disease, disability and dysfunction than anytime in human history. And believe it or not we have the first generation of youth with a lower life expectancy than their parents.  If that don't make you wake up like our kids are scheduled to die younger than we are. It’s supposed to be the opposite. We're keeping old people live longer and sicker and younger people are dying sooner with more sickness. So part of it was that we've got to solve this problem. But the other part wow I've got to go find something that maybe isn't there or I've got to find the missing link. There’s that journey of discovery, right? The merging of that and the guys and girls we did it with are geniuses in their respective fields. Nutrition, behavioral change, movement, anatomy, whatever it is. So to actually go to each of these leaders and get their take on how it answer that. It was, you don't get many opportunities in life to do that to. Say here are the problems let's go speak to the world's best and find out how they might solve it. And then bring it back to the people who asked for it. That really was the journey. Maggie: So for the listeners at home what does PTA Global do or what does that certification earn you? Scott: A couple of things. One, if you woke up today as a fitness enthusiast and said man I would love to become a  professional coach, a personal trainer or a fitness professional, you have to get legally certified. Now you can do it the right way or the wrong way. The wrong way is you could go online trough some swipe your finger, take an exam, call yourself professional. Or you can go study, whether it’s 6, 9, 12 month program. Some of them are two years, actually study the human body anatomy, kinesiology, program design, behavior.  Then you have to sit for an actual exam and there's a practical in a room. One of those companies is PTA Global, we created a brand new approach to becoming a globally certified fitness professional. So if you take our course whether you're in Dubai, London, Amsterdam. You are legally certified anywhere in the world to practice in this profession. So that's kind of a big deal. It very much a behavioral change approach, we say when you find the why, you find the what. Everyone’s got a what, weight loss, weight gain, whatever it is. Until I find the why, the chances are we aren’t going to get you there. So that's how our philosophy is meeting people where they need to be met. And then we have advanced curriculums. One of them is called Exercise and Stress Management. We are nothing but a bunch of cells that get stressed on a daily basis. And how I move today is as much to do with my nutrition, my sleep, my emotions as much as it is my posture and flexibility, you know? So we can go on a very deep journey with you. And that then that leaves into Pivotal, my company now, which is that my passion is to travel the world and connect those dots. With the operators, with the product manufacturers, with the educators, with the certification bodies. We work with all them to bring people together to connect dots. So we travel the world, me and Haley, creating partnerships between global leaders. Delivering education for these people, creating education for them. One of our biggest passions is to teach the teachers. When you're in a room of a hundred coaches you’re really touching hundreds of thousands of people, right? Maggie: Sure. Scott: But when you’re in a room of 50 teachers your reaching exponentially more. So that’s what Pivotal does. We’ve kind of gone even bigger, how do we touch the most people to empower and fulfill their potential. Whether it is the club operator, whether it is the coach, whether it is the educator. And that was really the birth of Pivotal. Was to take everything I learned at PTA Global and kind of go one layer deeper. Which is really connecting people. I can’t think of one single movement in human history that hasn’t come from those first followers finding their fanatical fans and on and on it goes. So that’s kind of our gig now. Maggie: Yeah. So this conversation that is generally focused on goals. Is interesting to me I think to ask this question about how you’ve worked with people in the fitness world, in the fitness realm about how to tap into their why by them articulating their what. And then going through the behavior change process to get them to meet their goals. And how has that potentially shaped the way you view goals? Scott: Utterly, completely. You know one of my most important values to me is authenticity. Sometimes I feel like saying no experience, no opinion, you know? How can you coach someone one-on-one personal training or in small group or large group and hope to not only inspire but guide them to transformation. Because really everyone is looking for a transformation. No one wants to be what they are. You want to be more than they are. You want to be the best version of yourself you can. So if I want to coach you my job really is to create an environment for you to change yourself because I can’t do it. It’d be quite arrogant and ignorant for me to think I can.  So behavioral change, this whole view point is if I create an environment for you to change yourself that affects how I communicate to you, how I listen, do I have empathy can I be a GPS because you're coming today and you're stressed because you’ve had 15 coffees, you didn't eat, didn't sleep, you busted up with your partner. Okay that changed our program like instantly. How do I create on demand based on your behavior. So what that does authentically as coach for me. Man am I applying that to myself? Am I applying that to my business relationships? Am I listening when I’m speaking to my partners? Am I willing to consider maybe the possibility that they don’t really have a point of view but it might actually change mine. That’s empathetic listening. I'm going to listen at a level where I actually might realize that I'm wrong. Do you know how hard that is as a personal trainer because we always think we're right. Don’t eat this, do eat that. Stop doing that, go to bed on time.,   Okay, you just told them to change their whole life and you're there for maybe 3 hours a week out of the 168. So you're like 2% of their life but you've asked them to change a hundred percent of their life. That seems a bit drastic and you're not there to pick up the pieces because there's going to be a lot of falling pieces. When you ask someone to change everything. What if their partner doesn't like that? What if it means now, when everyone else is eating fried chicken. They’re saying “ugh, couldn’t we have grilled it?”. But no one else in the family likes grilled. And on it goes. So it's affected everything I do because it makes me stop and go am I applying that same principle to my life? And is what I'm asking them to maybe consider doing, have I consider the choices in my life today or this week? Am I making the right choices for myself? That's authentic. So when someone says I come in today Scott. No I didn't fix my nutrition plan, I didn't work out three times this week, empathy would say man I know how that feels. There’s no judgment. It’s just like I know how that feels. Now ask more questions. What would your block? What was your break? What do you want to do about it? That's shifted how I am in my relationships and life for the most part this aint about me, right? I wish it was. Then my script would work. Maggie: Well it's interesting because the world of fitness has like you said kind of blown up. And everyone has a place in it in a really cool way. Brands are part of it. Different kinds of fitness have become hybrids and people aren’t just one thing were multiple things. And I think that's an awesome thing that health and wellness has become a little bit more top of mind. But I also think that creates a lot more ego about who is right and who is wrong so the idea of taking it back, maybe I’m wrong is probably very slim to none in the health and wellness world. Scott: One of my favorite quotes I heard was in 2004, it was at a conference I was speaking at called Meeting of the Minds. And it was like TED talks back in the day every presenter got 20 minutes and they were leaders and what they did. It was incredible I got to ask to present, I was the new kid on the block. I heard this guy say, “I’m pretty sure standing here today, after 30 years as a world-class Olympic coach”, which he was and educator. “He said 50% of what I’m about to tell you is complete BS.” So everyone laughs. And he goes, “The real problem is I’m not sure anymore which 50%.” And it really struck me. That’s probably the wisest thing anyone in this room is going to say all day. There is what I think is right and there is what I know, I don’t know. Then there is what I don’t know, I don’t know. And in every area of research in every industry, every few years there’s like wow that changes what we think about technology or medicine. And yet our industry for the most part still wants to practice fitness the way we did 30 years ago. Even though what we’ve learned about the body and the mind is dramatically more evolved. So you go into these operators and you see them building clubs the same way they did 30 years ago. If medicine followed that it would be a problem, right? And so to your point, I think fitness itself needs to be dramatically redefined. Because fitness just means your fit to perform the task that you were here to perform. So what is that? Your a mum wants to pick up her kids is different from someone who wants to look better naked that’s different from someone. It’s just you know? So the industry itself could really do with redefining a little bit of its purpose I think. Because we are more wellness, we are more healthful. We should be. I think fitness itself is what could with a little bit of a tweak. Maggie: Yeah, yeah. So moving forward, as you look down the line. Whether it's tomorrow kind of goal or 10 years down the line. What is a big goal you hope to accomplish? Scott:  I've got too many, I think. Maggie: That's okay. Scott: I think for me, I would love, love for us to get rid of names like personal trainer and instructor. And I’d love for us to get rid of the definitions of I’m a yogi, I’m a pilates, or I’m a [...]. We’re coaches, I know I keep saying it. We’re coaches and what’s fascinating about the word is it comes from the 14th century. Like the stagecoach, it was a vehicle of transportation that carries people from where they are to where they’re going. So I always like to say you can be a personal trainer, you can be an instructor but what people are looking for is to go from where they are to where they want to be. From who they are to who they want to become. When you’re a coach you’re this vehicle of transportation, you know? And you remember your coaches, the good and the bad. I think we’re bigger than just trainers and instructors. But what I would love to see, is if we could all come together to say this is what we agree on this is how we coach the human being inside the human body. These are our ingredients for human movement. The thing about ingredients are you can create infinite different recipes. But we’ve got to agree on the ingredients, surely.  A world class chef can cook all different kinds of cuisines. But they know the food, they know the ingredients, they know their basics. And I don’t think we have that. So if I go to physical therapy [...], there’s not a lot of respect for the fitness professional world or the professional training world. There’s not a lot of respect for the group exercise instructor. You go into mind body and there is a complete dissonance between what you’re do in a yoga studio versus what you do in a swimming pool. Movement is movement. Coaching is coaching. And human beings are human beings, man. I would love for us to just have a commonality around those basic ingredients. I really would and that’s kind of what my journey now of Pivotal is about. Is because I can be in a room with physical therapists looking at movement assessments, joint mechanics, knee pain, back pain. The next day I’m at a conference with 300 people going through small group training. And [..] understand is I’ve actually given them the same ingredients, just a different recipe. It absolutely blows my mind sometimes. People go, “Oh yeah, you do the rehab stuff and you do the small group.” I’m like I do movement and coaching. Maggie: Yeah, and from the consumer side of it. Like, it can be taxing to go to so many professionals. Not only for your own dollar that you’re just doling out to hear the latest and greatest from this party and then you hear a contradictory thing from another person. Then you’re like where do I spend my money? But it’s also like how do I get better from this injury? Or how do I actually perform better in this goal that I’m trying to reach fitness-wise? That can be really hard on the just fitness enthusiast. Scott: Go back even more right. The person who’s not enthusiastic about it Maggie: Right. Scott: So your mom and dad passed away when they were say 55. You’re 53, 54. You’re one year away from the exact age where you might have lost your parents. Your sedentary, you're overweight, you're in pain, you don't move. It's not lack of information or lack of education. You need to move, everyone knows. Exercise is probably gonna do. Going to  bed on time is probably a good idea. You pick up a cigarette packet it's got a picture of death on it with a cross. It's kind of very ignorant of us to think people need more education they don't they don't. They don’t need education. But they haven't found a meaningful and relevant reason to do it that outweighs the reasons not to do it. And so I would suggest that what we need to do as a movement and industry is get back to coaching human beings. Because when you find the what you find the why.  But, we just got back from China, here’s my example. And it blows my mind. It's one of the hottest places to go and travel. I don't speak Mandarin. Very very to no English. Not that there has to be but it makes it hard to even get a cup of coffee let alone eat or move around. And loads of smoking. Loads of pollution. Crazy packed busy. But everywhere you go is movement. I’m not lying, there’s eighty, ninety year old people riding bikes in the middle of a busy cross-section. Music’s playing, you turn around someone’s just doing [...]. You walk to the nearest park, hundreds of old people dancing, doing pull-ups and then they drop, no lie. Light up a cigarette and get back on their bike. No obesity, I don’t see the diabetes. I see people moving in ways that make them feel good. It’s nearly always in a community. They’re not doing it alone. Maggie: Right. Scott: Do you know what I mean? I think we really need to look at that part of it. Is how do people want to move? What's their style of moment? What's emotionally attaching to them? Not just physically but emotionally attaching. And so we put people in boxes and there’s good to that. Chances are they've already had a bad experience most people have exercised their life. Most people have failed at it.  It goes all the way back to that crappy gym teacher who told you we're good enough. There’s a lot of emotional triggers going on as soon as they walk through the door. And they're met by trainers that often are wearing shirts that are 3 sizes too small. It’s not the most enticing model of movement. And I think we can shift it. It wouldn’t take too much. The shift come from the neck up. Not the neck down. So I hope, my biggest goal coming is that Pivotal really, we just would like to leave the world a little bit better than we found it. And so if we could get more people moving more often that’s a win. But more importantly, in ways where the payoff is in the process. They move because it feels good. They move because emotionally connects them. Not, “Oh, I have to do it.”  I've got to do it. Or I’m doing it just for an outcome - weight loss or whatever it is. We know that doesn't work, it never has worked. If it does is short-term. I move because I love to move. Some days I swing a tennis racket, some days it’s playing rugby, some days it’s lifting weights. I move because I just love to move. I think everyone is wired to move, we just haven’t worked out how they want to move. Maggie: So, if we were to imagine that I were coming in for a first time coaching session with you, And it probably begins a little bit more about the conversation and what's happening neck up versus alright let’s do this functional screening and figure out where your compensations are. What would be some of the questions that you’d ask me as the client to tap into something. Scott: Wow, wow, wow. Maggie: A reason for moving. Scott: I love what you said because let’s call that the client intake consultation, whatever it is. There is a movement screening involved. There is a nutritional screening involved. But it starts with a motivational interview. And so one of the first questions we’ll ask. Repeat the questions you feel comfortable with. Because if I create emotional insecurity right out the gate, I’m already a threat to you. So the first questions can’t be too deep or you’re immediately thinking I don’t know if I like you or trust you, why on earth would I tell you that. So we even teach, not just the kind of questions but the sequencing, the language, all of it. But one of the first things would be what is the single most important goal you would like to achieve in your time with me. Okay, there’s a couple of big words in there. Not all your goals, the single most important in your time with me. Another big question right out of the gate is what are your expectations of me in the next 60 minutes. Because I need you to know right out the gate that I am here for you, it’s all about you. But I’m accountable, right? If I go to the doctor and they misdiagnosis me or prescribe me to wrong medicine, I’m holding them accountable.  What are your expectations of me. If I got type A directed, I like just tell them what to do and just make sure I know why we’re doing it and kick my butt. Okay. You’re not a high-five kind of guy. You just told me a lot of information on how to coach you. But someone else might say, I have no idea where to start. So giving you an entire game plan in 60 minutes is overwhelming, confusing and the opposite of what you asked for. The only thing I need to give you is the one next thing, then you do it and you’re going to feel like a success. Another question we might ask would be we get further into the questionnaire and we say 1 through 10, 10 is most important, 1 is least important. How important is it that you are successful moving toward your goal? We don’t judge it. If I say a 5 out of 10, that’s wonderful. Why is it not a 2? We don’t go to how can I make it a 10? Why is it not a 2? Because you’re already thinking that. Oh, it wasn’t a 2 so I’m not bad as I think. I’m not as behind as I think. Yeah, it was a 5 that is important to me. We’re reinforcing in your brain with your words. And you’ll get things, oh it’s not a 2 because if I don’t change now it could be too late. Or it’s not a 2 because I waited to long and my pain has gotten worse. They start to unravel the magic. But then another question and this will be the last example I give you. Will be 1 through 10, 10 is the most confident, 1 is the least confident. How confident are you, you can successfully achieve your goal? If someone says oh, I’m an 8 out of 10. Interesting, because it was only a 5 out of 10 for importance. But it’s nearly a 10 out of 10 on confidence. So you’re really confident about a goal that’s not that important. Or it could be opposite, it’s really important but I’m not confident. Two completely different people to coach. We literally have an entire script of motivational questions that are based in neuroscience and behavioral change. Not just the language but the sequence. So by the time you get to the end and you do a summary, they say how did you get all of that out of me.  Number two, you clearly listened. But most important, they say I just admitted that to myself outloud and another human being. That is the start of a valuable change. Is getting clear on what you’re willing to do and ready to do versus not. So there’s not sets and reps, there’s no calories, or anything. What’s your why? And are you ready and willing to change at this time because if you’re not it’s a trainwreck. And I’d be irresponsible to offer you to do it, quite honestly. Maggie: What I think is really fascinating about everything that you just outlined and all the questions that you brought up the word goal with. Those questions could be transitioned from a pre-coaching session to a goal setting session for your career, for your family, for how you want to set up your life at home or whatever it is. It’s how you do anything is how you do everything. Scott: Yes. Maggie: And so I think, at aSweatLife we do really believe that like what happens at the gym is not just that little box of time in the gym and then you leave and your gone. It’s those things that come up in there can carry out to the rest of your life if you let them. And it’s just about. Scott: It’s supposed to, right? Maggie: Right. And it can in a really positive way if you’re open to it. And if you say. Oh yeah, this small victory I did do this thing that was awesome. I’m going to go carry it into my meeting at work. Then I’m going to do the next thing that’s awesome.  So it’s really fascinating and really cool to hear because it is just a conversation around like how do we feel about goals, in general. Scott: Yeah. And what do I mean by goal? Is that just the outcome, is that the process. How will I know when I’ve got there. Measurably and subjectively. How do I know when I’ve actually got there. Most goals are subjective. I want to be in less pain, I want to feel better. That’s a subjective goal. How do we know when we’re there when you’ve arrived? And finally, how do you want to get there. Are you a kind of person who says I’ve got to get on the freeway and get there as quick as possible?  Okay, but then it’s the freeway and it’s concrete jungle and there’s lots of in and out. No, I’d rather take the scenic route. I’d rather go slow and take in the sights. So there’s where you’re going and then there’s how you want to get there. But invariably there is going to be traffic and roadwork. So as a coach, you’ve got to be a GPS and recalculate the route. Which for me, in my experience is every session. You can just see it emotionally in people when you get used to coaching wise. Something just happened where you stopped enjoying this session, that didn’t feel good. Maybe I said something that wasn’t. You know? Or maybe I didn’t listen to something you needed me to listen. I saw something in my client, the entire posture changed. You better recalculate right now.  And so for us, we’d say most people what they emotionally care about is outside the gym. There is very little emotional connection to the dumbell. So yes, in groups that’s different. Don’t get me wrong. That sense of tribe, community, relationships, being part of something bigger than yourself, agreed. But in one-on-one, I would honestly say that most people what they care about is outside the gym. They’re hoping what they transform inside the gym makes that better out. That’s what they’re trying to improve is their life outside the gym. And the people who care about their life inside the gym are the people who work inside the gym. Quite honestly most clients don’t. Maggie: So, I want to pull it back to you for a minute. Because you’ve talked about going from not finishing high school at first. To where you are now which is cofounder of multiple companies. And a huge contributor to what we know about  modern fitness today. You’ve written 50 or more accredited courses that people now go through to get their own certifications. And how you’ve gone from one step to the next. When you look back on it now, what do you think was your guiding force throughout? Or has that changed? Scott: That’s a really great questions. Today, looking back I’ve got a different lens than if you had asked me a year ago or ten years ago, right? But the common thread is to truly be of service. I know it sounds really cheesy but from PGA Global to Pivotal to coaching people or teams or kids. And a lot of what I do is volunteer work in the community. A lot of the teams that I coach, the high schools and the local soccer leagues. It’s all volunteer work, right.  I find that I’m at my most happiest, in flow. When you’re not thing about the bills or the money. When nothing else matters in that present moment is when I’m being of service to someone as a coach. Whether it’s the teacher coach, the sports coach, as a coach. And it could be 4:00 on a Friday night, pouring rain on Foster Lake shore where I coach soccer. And we’ve got out ten year old kids, our eleven year old kids, our sixteen year old high school girls and it’s pouring with rain and it’s 25 degrees. The time just flies. And you get home soaked and cold and you think I want to do it again. It’s those moments where you feel that in flow there is something going on in you. You know what I mean? There’s an internal something directing you. So the single biggest directive force is that, I find that when I’m of service to people, selfishly it seems to make me feel really great. So maybe that’s one good use for being selfish [...]. And I really do want to know that it mattered, to be honest mate. I want to know that the work I do matters. I guess I can only speak for myself but man some many times you go through life and you think did anything I do today make a blind bit of difference. Do you know what I mean? Or, in some cases made it worse. But at the end of the day you want to know that your life made a difference. To someone or something bigger than yourself. I think that’s the biggest directing force I’ve had is the sense of I think this makes a difference. I just have a feeling this makes a difference. I don’t know if that answered your question or if it was too esoteric. I can make it more pragmatic if you want. Maggie: No, I think that it gives me goosebumps because I think that’s what everyone wants to some degree. And that’s a really special thing to find your flow. I don’t know that we can all say that we have it enough. We have probably been in flow at some point in our lives. But maybe we’re not attuned enough to saying this is it, how do I recreate this. It seems like you do have that awareness sort of around what is the secret sauce to when you’re feeling in flow and how you can keep doing it. Or keep bringing it back as much as possible. Would you agree? Scott: Yeah. I think the struggle for all of us, myself included is I think we do know what that is. There’s just an innate knowing, you know? It like saying I don't know if I love my kids. You know you love your kids. You can’t find the words. You know, right? But life, we allow ourselves to be distracted by what’s urgent rather than important. By what’s demanding. So I’ve often taken jobs that didn’t feel good. Because the money was a safety net. Or the benefits were a safety net. Or whatever it was, even though I knew there was a big [...] I would love and yeah it’s in my industry. And then a year in you’re like, this is not me. But you go along because now you’ve got bills and kids. We do and that’s real man. But at some stage you know you can’t die with your music in you. That’s for sure. Maggie: Yeah. Scott: You know what I mean? Maggie: Right. Scott: It’s like being in flow is when you sit down and you’re writing. I write alot for work and also non-work stuff. And you’ll just be in flow and you have it going you don’t realize 3 or 4 hours are gone and it’s 20 pages on the floor. And you realize crap, I didn’t number them. Because you’re just in flow. It doesn’t happen every day. It doesn’t and there’s things you have to do to reconnect to it when you lose it. You know, there’s prayer or meditation, whatever it is that connects you to that thing. For some people, it’s playing sport. It’s dance. Maggie: Yeah. Scott: When you feel disconnected, you better reconnect. You know. You have to because that is really painful being constantly disconnected from your source, your flow. That’s a really painful existence, for me it was. Often, what sparks me into reconnecting is how much more miserable do I have to get before I reclaim happiness, you know? How much more self-pity, wallowing. Sometimes you have to say hold on, there’s what happens to you and then it’s how you react to it. And sometimes you have to say stop that’s enough. I’m going to reconnect to what makes me feel good. I’m going to go back to where I’m in flow. And it requires a leap very often. And Pivotal started when, two years ago. I had been at Midtown Athletic Club as their national director for five years rebuilding the facilities, re-recruiting the coaches, developing Midtown University, it was huge projects. And I realized I was getting more into operations again. More into PNLs and that’s what the job deserves and that’s what they deserve. But in my mind I thought maybe I could manipulate it to be more education so that wasn’t fair. So I had a wonderful chat with an incredible COO, John Brady. And [...] changed. It was like I need to reclaim and he said Scott just do what you love and you’re great at. That’s why I recruited you in the first place. And I went home and I realized I need to make a change. Loved the club, loved the people but I wasn’t in flow anymore. I made two phone calls on the way home that day to two leaders in the industry that I hadn’t spoken to in years. I said what would you say if I said I was available to write education, deliver education, and teach teachers again. Within 24 hours, I had a plane trip to China and I was in boardrooms speaking to these leaders. And I came home to Haley and I said I think we need to start a company. But you honestly need to stop doing one thing that wasn’t making you happy but do it the right way. Don’t just cut and run. Consider other people. And then took this leap of faith, like these two names came to me and it was like wow, they’re leaders man. Should I really call them. They picked up immediately and said I want you on a plane. And it was that reminder light that when you say yes to life it conspires to help you, you know what I mean? That’s my experience but you’ve got to do the work. It doesn’t just come. It’s not Mary Poppins sitting around and hope that if I meditate good things come. No, you’ve got to meditate but then you’ve got to take action, right? It takes a lot of work. Relentless effort, actually. Relentless effort and I think that’s the final piece. For successful people I see is, if it sounds like a lot of work, it’s because it is. Maggie: It’s probably ten times more than it even sounds like. Scott: Success is always hard work whether in love relationships, raising your kids, business life. To be good at anything is probably going to take a bloody lot of work. But if you’re enthusiastic and you’re in flow more often than not, even on the bad days it’s like you know what, I can do that. Maggie: Well this has been an awesome conversation. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast, Scott. Scott: Thanks for having me! I hope the listeners get something out of the crazy stuff that comes out but it was an honor. It was really nice. Cindy: He goal getters, co-host and producer Cindy Kuzma here. Just letting you know that we have coming up for you now a goal from one of you, our listeners. This is another one recorded live at the Michelob Ultra Sweatworking Week Fitness Festival last month. If you want to share one of your goals with us, whether it’s a goal you achieved, a goal your setting up to achieve, even a piece of goal-getting advice that you’d like to share you could do that and you could be featured on this very podcast. All you have to do is record it and email it in mp3, wav, whatever kind of file you want to  Cindy@aSweatLife.com. Thanks and here is you and one of your goals. Speaker: So I set a couple of goals earlier this year and I noticed that one thing I didn’t do was have accountability in a plan. So I find myself now it’s June and I haven’t accomplished the goals that I set for myself.  Because I haven’t set those checkpoints to say, hey, you know how are you going to get there? Have you been doing everything on a daily basis, on a weekly basis? And then just that accountability. So whether that’s telling someone and having them check in with you, or just saying by first quarter I’m going to accomplish this and then next quarter I’m going to accomplish that. And then I just found myself not having achieved anything. So, for the second part of the year I’m going to reset and visit some different goals and create strategies that are more focused around holding myself accountable for those specific plans. Cindy: This podcast is produced by me, Cindy Kuzma and it’s another thing that’s better with friends. So please, share it with yours. You can subscribe pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts including now on Spotify. And while you’re there if you could leave us a rating or review we would be so grateful. Special thanks to Jay Mono, for our theme music, to our guest this week, Scott Hobson, and to TechNexus for the recording studio. And of course, to you our listeners.  

Scott Vaughn is an intuitive healer, who specializes in helping others see through old belief systems that no longer serve them and empowering them to take charge of their own lives through recognition of their spiritual gifts. Scott shares a supernatural event from his family history — the story of his great, great grandfather Parks, a preacher who floated to the ceiling of his church and stayed there. MENTIONED ON THE SHOW DUNE by Frank Herbert Bene Gesserit LITANY AGAINST FEAR I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain. Bene Gesserit "Litany Against Fear" from Frank Herbert's Dune Book Series © 1965 and 1984 Frank Herbert Published by Putnam Pub Group ISBN: 0399128964 GUEST LINKS - SCOTT VAUGHN www.scottdouglasvaughn.com www.scottvaughnphotography.com The Grandpa Story Scott's original post about the levitating preacher HOST LINKS - SLADE ROBERSON Slade's Books & Courses Get an intuitive reading with Slade Automatic Intuition BECOME A PATRON https://www.patreon.com/shiftyourspirits Edit your pledge on Patreon TRANSCRIPT Scott: I'm Scott Vaughn. You got that part right, I know that. I'm a professional intuitive in Johnson City, Tennessee. I do a lot of work, a lot of readings. When I first began my work, I was doing a lot of healing work. I'm sort of a, was a reiki practitioner who sort of woke up one day, and, not that all reiki practitioners need to wake up, that isn't what I'm trying to imply. I was going along about my married life and, this stuff has always been in the background for me. I was always, probably a little bit more claircognizant I would say, if I was putting a term on it, than I could have recognized at the time. I always seemed to know some things that I was not supposed to know and it seemed to make people more uncomfortable, now that I think about it, than I was able to access at the time. But somewhere around 2012, I think it's in the summer that I actually met you on the street side in Chattanooga, I ended up having a health issue and turns out I had had some elevated liver enzymes. I went to the doctor about it. That this is a theme. I've had elevated liver enzymes for a long time. So I went to the doctor and she said, We're gonna send you and get you an ultrasound of this liver. So they did an ultrasound of my liver. She said, We didn't find anything. I'm going to send you to a gastroenterologist. And of course, I was a really great hypochondriac in those days so that just absolutely fed those wonderful impulses and urges that I had going on at the time. So she sent me to a gastroenterologist and he said, We're going to do a CAT Scan of your liver. This was around, I think, maybe Memorial Day of 2012. That's 6 years ago now. Hard to believe. But they call me back, the nurse, she says, Hello, we have found something on your liver and we're definitely going to need to take a look at it. We're going to have to schedule you in for an MRI. And as you know, medical tests always... you don't get them the next day. It was like, 5 weeks out. So of course I was scared shitless. What I had to do at that point, I was working a fairly rigorous spiritual program, and I had to really put myself back into that, because I had, not really thrown that out. I just wasn't as rigorous in my practice as I had wanted to be. And as I began to do that, I don't know what happened. I began to wake up, and went to the local metaphysical shop, which was not really a place that I hung out, to be honest with you, at that point, and had a chakra alignment. I don't exactly know what happened there but I began to... He put some sto... This is how I would have described it then. He put these rocks on me and he left the room. And then I started seeing all these dead people. So that's how I talked about it then, so that's how I'll talk about it now. I started hearing, I mostly hear things, rather than see things, although I do see things in my mind's eye as well, but my mind's ear is, I think, more developed. I began to hear these conversations with people who had passed and favorite aunts were coming by, my grandfather was coming by, my father was, had not passed yet but he came by later. We can talk about that later. And after that, just began to start having what I call.. just sort of mind-blowing awarenesses. Began realizing that I needed to follow a slightly different path for my life, and I'd been working, and did until fairly recently, in higher education, in academic advising and higher education administration. I was at the point in my life where I was really ready to go very heavy into that conference-going world and writing articles and all that stuff that people do in the academic world. It sort of just really called all that into question for me and... This is not what I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to do something else. So... took a few classes here and there. I enrolled in a ministerial program that was being offered out of our local metaphysical shop that's named Atlantis here in Johnson City, and the teacher, my teacher, who was offering it, just... I happened to be in there one day, probably buying a stone because I was getting an interest in crystals and things like that. And she said, Hey, I'm teaching this class. I don't know if you might be interested in it. And for some reason, which was very seemingly out of character for me, I said, Yeah, I'm interested in doing this! It was the Alliance of Divine Love, it's a metaphysical, ordinational ('ordinational' is not a word), but it's a metaphysical sect, it's not really a sect either, but it's a metaphysical type of ordination, with 3-years long course, and that was a really good experience for me. And the only reason that I really want to mention that is if you had, if she had come to me a year before, maybe 2 years before: I never would have encountered her. That's one thing. I would've just been like, No! Hell no! Like, You're crazy. I don't want anything to do with... No! It wasn't that I had anything against it from a religious standpoint. It's just that I thought, I thought people who are like who I've turned out to be were absolutely crazy. Funny the way things shift over time for you, and... So, went through that, and it became very apparent that I needed to... It was just time for me to start working with people and I kept hearing this strong message: You need to work with others. And I'm like, Wow, I don't know, I'm like, Why? I'd taken a reiki class several years before and that was a lot of fun. I did it, and work on, you know, put my hands on some people, did it for myself. Thought it was a real neat experience. That summer I also felt the need to take that second level of reiki and... so I opened up the following year. Just started seeing folks in my house, in my living room, as a matter of fact. I put up a massage table in my living room and started working with folks. One of my very first clients was a guy named Dennis (if you're listening Dennis, Hey!) turned out to be a very dear friend over time. I performed at his wedding last summer to his partner. I was working with Dennis and I was doing all the stuff. And in those days, it was a very formal preparing the space and making sure everything was very quiet and very sacred and taking it with just the utmost seriousness. I had these agate wind chimes that were really pretty, but when the air conditioning would blow, it would sound, clink clink clink. It was annoying. I resist the word cacophonous because that's really pretentious, but they're... I had to call it out and say it was pretentious, but it was cacophonous. It was annoying. And I remember saying, just looking up, Can't you do something about these horrible wind chimes? I can't focus on Dennis. And I got a very, very clear message back, and I still laugh about it. You don't need to worry about the wind chimes because you're not doing any of this anyway. Slade: Ooo... Scott: And I was like, Shit. But that was a very strong message for me, very early in beginning to do my work. And then, and just logically followed, I knew that I was also supposed to do readings as well but didn't know how that would work. But I knew that was coming for me. I remember one of the, the very first psychic fair I participated in, I didn't know what to call myself. I was more in the room with the healer folks, but towards the end, I was like, I'm really here to do readings. I ended up doing a couple of readings for folks and it seemed to... I don't remember them very well, which I usually consider that a pretty good sign that something decent happened, if I'm staying out of the equation and not screwing it up with my conscious mind, and everything sort of logically followed after that. I felt like I just needed to probably stop seeing people outside of my office or outside of my house, because I live in a condo and it was just... went and had to keep it clean all the time and I didn't like to do that, so decided it was probably a good idea to open up an office that was right over the hill from where I was living at the time, and began to do readings, mostly I used to be doing healing type work and it wasn't exactly reiki that I ultimately began to do that I am doing now. I don't exactly know what I would call the methodology that I have but it's not a lot of hands on. It's a lot of chanting, it's a lot of frequency, and just sending energy back and forth for folks. It's a lot of Spirit Guides. It's a lot of calling in the Medicine People from other cultures, and allowing them to hold the space and allowing that work to continue. But began doing readings. Primarily my work now consists mostly of doing readings instead of doing healing work. That's sort of not the focus as much now. It's just turned out more that I'm doing readings. And, I was told very early on that, the people that I would end up working with were probably going to be people who were not necessarily always sold on the new age path, the whole metaphysical thing. That the person I was going to be working with, you know, anyone who seeks me out, I feel like I work with whomever I'm supposed to work with, but the majority of the people who come my way are folks who are disappointed in organized religion and in the church and things like that. But they haven't been able to find a way to replace that with anything that's meaningful. These are folks who are sad sometimes and disillusioned about the way they've seen spiritual matters handled. And folks who really want to... They know there's something more but they may have been taught all their lives it was not okay to seek those things. Because that was not allowed. There's a strong threat of that, especially here in this culture in east Tennessee. So that tends to be a lot of the people who come my way. One of the things that I feel very strongly that I'm supposed to do is sort of, the Hermit card in the tarot is one that I sort of embody. Just sort of holding the light up for folks. Slade: Mmm... Scott: You know? Standing there, along the path. The nice thing about that card is, you don't know what's in front, you don't know what's behind. But there he is, holding the light. And that's sort of what I've been feeling lately, that I'm supposed to embody. Is holding the light up for people and interpreting the things that are given to me to offer to them as insights for them along their path. Slade: You're a Lantern Bearer, Scott! Scott: A Lantern Bearer - that's cute. I love that. Slade: I actually have an episode about the Hermit tarot and how I re-named it the Lantern Bearer, because... yeah.. Scott: You know what? I may have stolen that. That may be where I've heard that. I may be stealing from you and I don't - Slade: I stole it from someone else. Scott: Okay. Slade: There was a, I don't know if there's one of those decks floating around out there where the Hermit card is actually called the Lantern Bearer, or someone somewhere has used that term, and I was like, Ooo, I like that! Scott: I'm sure Hay House has put it out somewhere, you know? Slade: Right. Yes. Copyright whoever said it! But I do have an episode about it and the episode's mine. I want to talk to the audience for just a second and let them know that, for those of you listening to this conversation, Scott is a friend of mine and he's an honorary member of the Automatic Intuition community because he was sort of teaching himself while being friends with me, but yet I still needed him to be a part of that group. I've wanted to interview him since day one of this podcast but here's the thing with interviewing your friends. We could talk for hours about anything, and it may or may not necessarily be fun or interesting to anyone listening. So far I think you're doing pretty good, but... So the challenge was to find the right focus topic, and with so many of the guests on the show being intuitives and healers and peers, Scott and I were kind of brainstorm texting about this for months, like, What should we do an episode about?? And then I see this post on Scott's Facebook wall titled, "Concerning The Time My Great-Great Grandfather Floated to the Ceiling of the Church—And Lingered.” I read the story and I lost my mind over it. I told Scott “THIS” this is what I want to talk to you about. Nobody else has this story. This was months ago. Scott: Great! Slade: Go ahead and say something while I clear my throat. Scott: One of the things about the story is that, a lot of times I'll re-run myself on Facebook. You know. Nobody really notices that much about that as the person doing it. People think, Oh this is great, you just put it together now. No, this is a re-run from last year. You liked it then too. But I think the first time I put that out there, maybe 2009, I was in a much different head, I was in a much different heart space than I am now, okay? So there was a lot of, the original version of that, if it's still out there and I don't think I went back and edited it, really conveys a lot of the skepticism I had at the time with it. And then the latest version comes from what I would say is a more heart-centred, really knowing, just from a much more knowing place and much more loving place and a much more... I'm very open to the possibilities of everything that could have happened when he floated to the ceiling of the church and lingered. Slade: Okay, so... let's just... You've got to tell us this story. Your great-great-grandfather floated to the ceiling of the church. I'm just going to let you tell us... Like I've never heard it before. Tell it to me. Scott: Okay. Like you've never heard it before. Because a lot of times when I'm talking about this story, I'm talking about the story itself, which is different than telling the story. It's the story about the story. It goes that my great-great-grandfather had started out, I think, in the hills of Tennessee and then south eastern Kentucky of a town Jellico, Tennessee. That's about two hours above, maybe an hour and a half, an hour above Knoxville, if you take Interstate 70. A very remote mountain area. If you were writing a book about Appalachia and you really wanted to find something that seemed almost cliche it was so realistic, you could find that. And so, in the back woods, probably a Baptist minister, okay, and my understanding at the time is that he was a very straight up and down Baptist minister, very read-the-scripture, the talk-a-lot kind of guy and was making a pretty good living as preacher back in the woods. Around the early 20th century, this wave of Pentacostalism started sweeping through the country, hitting about, in the mountains (my electricity just went out as we're talking about this - Hello, great grandpa, great great grandpa Parks). So (electricity's back) so this wave of Pentacostalism starts sweeping through the country, probably hits the area in the early 20th century in Jellico, and... So he began to preach... I don't know how familiar you are with some parts of the Bible. Over in the book of Corinthians, it talks about the spiritual gifts of healing, of prophecy of times, of people being able to interpret speaking in other tongues and people being able to put their hands on other people and they be healed from things. He began to preach those things and a lot of people followed him as he started a new congregation. He took his congretation with him and they moved and started something else. The people who went with him were all into it, but a lot of people in the community, it was heresy to them. So, the story goes that three men, allegedly from the Baptist church, came in to break up the service. They had guns and they appeared in the very back. My great-great-grandfather, I'm going to start calling him Grandpa Parks, or grandpa. Grandpa Parks was up there preaching and he saw the men and he said, If you come one step closer, I pray the devil smite you. And they walked closer. And of course, people in the church were starting to really panic and get nervous. My great-great-grandmother, Grandma Parks is sitting there thinking, she starts to pray, and at that moment, the Spirit of God picks him up from the pulpit and he rises to the ceiling of the church, and of course, Grandma Parks is there and she's like, Oh God, he's about to be 'transa-lated', was the word I heard. He's about to be transa-lated, just like Enoch. He's about to be transa-lated just like Enoch. She thought he's gonna... People are like, He's gonna go through the ceiling! He's gonna go through the ceiling! And, of course, you know, he's just as surprised as anyone, right? So the look on his face... really, you know, he's described as looking like he was scared, because, not because of the men at the back at this point, because he really just didn't know what was happening. And moved him through the congregation, through the middle of the congregation. You know, there's the rows on either side, right through the middle of the church and put him down right in front of the three men with the guns. Thus, after that, he was left alone. Now the story also goes that the three men, one of them, shortly after went blind. One of them dropped his gun, took his place in the church service and shut up. Okay? He joined up. And the other one, at some time later, you know, who knows, history tends to conflate times, he killed himself. Yeah, so, sort of like the three men on the cross maybe, or the Holy Trinity there, I don't know. But there were three of them. Outside of that, this entire denomination in the mountains, they call themselves The Church of God of the Mountain Assembly in Jellico. They're still there! There are still... You can look them up on Google. The Church of God of the Mountain Assembly headquarter in Jellico. That's one of the things that they talk about in some of their literature, was the time when Brother Parks was lifted to the ceiling of the Church, and that was a sign that they were doing the right thing. They were on the right track and that their message had weight and that began to grow and spread. There are quite a few, interestingly enough, Jellico's in the coal mining area and as the mines dried up, people went north. So a lot of my family, as well, went to Michigan. I have quite a bit of family in Michigan, or had been in Michigan at the time. So there's quite a bit of that church now in Michigan as well, which is interesting. And so, the amazing part of that story for me in that whole thing is it's sort of like a litmus test to my own spiritual development for me, when I look back. I was told the story as a kid. I was always fascinated by family stories. I know this is not the focus of what we're talking about, but I have equally interesting stories from... Nobody levitated, but people getting, sticking knives up their nose and dying from that, the other side of my family. I'll talk about that later. It's my uncle, Hugh Ballard, on my dad's side, who stuck the knife up his nose and died. But, I was always fascinated somehow, I sort of became like R2D2 for my family. They implanted stories within me as a small child and it tended to speak to me in the wrong way and I just start projecting holographs of stories that make people uncomfortable, I suppose. I don't know. Slade: I'm kind of that person in my family as well. Scott: You're a storyteller, so... Slade: Well, I think that... It's weird because I had aunts that would do genealogical research and stuff like that. And they would always give the stuff to me. Like, they didn't give it to their own kids. For some reason, people identified that I was the one to give it to. They felt like it would get told somehow, or it would be preserved, or just cared about, in a way, by me, that other people wouldn't. And it's true! I do care about all that stuff more. But I do wonder, what would possess you to think this, like, 7 year old boy wants to know about all this stuff? Scott: I've often wondered that, but it came to me from my mom's side of the family and my dad's side of the family. I've ended up with all of the family pictures. I've ended up with all of those things. But my ancestors, 'ancestors' is using that term broadly, my family members who have passed, my ancestors, some of them were alive when I was alive, they figure very prominently in the work that I do too. So that's another matter entirely that we can talk about in a minute. Slade: Here's something I want to ask you about, because... Scott: Please do! Slade: And I have to say, all the months that we tried to think of a reason for you to come on the show, and then all the months since we decided what the reason was, interestingly, two days ago in real time, I interviewed Ian Allen, who is a friend of yours, who also lives in Johnson City, and part of our conversation was about how supernatural, mystical, what we consider new age topics were viewed through the filter of Christianity. So you have some crazy, I mean, full-blown witchcraft going on, but it was all in the name of Jesus, you know what I mean? So I was wondering what your perspective is on that sort of weird mishmash of Christianity and the supernatural stuff which is not traditionally thought of as everyday Christian. Scott: Right, you know, I've been thinking that you were going to ask that question. I've not had an answer for it all week. Because I've had that in mind as well and I think that I was raised in a very traditional Christian family environment, and those kinds of things, though it's very conservative religion, a very evangelical religion, generally speaking, the belief was, a lot of those things that happened in, you know, the early church, we didn't have access to them in the current church. So the idea that, Can people be healed? Yes they can but God uses doctors. That's why God created doctors. Whatever, right? But... I've had to look further back into my family to be able to find some of those things, and that's in my Pentecostal relatives, right? Some of my mom's family, they still follow that path, and a lot of my family doesn't. But they're always the ones at the family gatherings I'm gravitating towards, because they're talking about prayer and things that have happened as a result of prayer. They're talking about warts falling off people. They're talking about somebody who had cancer who doesn't have cancer now. Somebody who was a drug addict one day and suddenly had an experience and they've not used drugs in 25 years. Those kinds of things. All kinds of ways of having miracles. And I don't really have an answer to your question. I have just a lot of experiences, a lot of things I believe have happened but I don't really know why that is. So thank you for asking - it's a great question! Slade: Do you believe in miracles? Scott: Yeah, of course! Now, I used to - For many years, I considered myself an atheist, okay? And so I didn't believe in anything. And it took a lot of work for me to not believe in anything, which tells me I wasn't a very good atheist. The kind of work that I'm doing now certainly was off the table because it was deeply buried. And, I think, you've heard that there are no atheists on the front lines of battle. I don't know. No atheist in the foxhole? I don't know about that, but I do know that some things that happened to me in my life forced me to really reconsider there was something out there that was bigger than me, and that wasn't me. Otherwise I would really be dead or worse... So if you can think of yourself being dead or worse, the worse part means that you're probably not an atheist. Because you tend to believe there is something going on out there that doesn't line up with your belief system, being an atheist, or at least as I understood it. For many years, I've used, I was an alcoholic. I'm a recovering alcoholic now, drug addict, those things. It's been many years since... I've been clean and sober for many years. Slade: Was that the result of anything spiritual? Or was it more of... from that atheist time period? Scott: It was probably from all that. I was a very bitter guy, a lot of bitterness against, and rebellion against religion, and those kinds of things, and with the family history, I suppose, that's always a part of it. Just poured alcohol onto it and pills and just went through a period of my life where I really wasn't there for it. As I got sober, that's sort of the beginning of my re-awakening. I believe we're all born awakened, right? Then I think, our families, our society, etc., I think we just get closed up and closed up. And in the end, we buy into that belief that we're closed up so much and we just continue to add to it, and alcohol was my way of adding to it, and not being here for my life. As I began to show up more for my life, I began to see, at least for me, there's a lot more than what I'm willing to admit is out there and in here, right? There a lot more and I don't have to be shut off from it. As I began to realize that I'm not shut off from it, I started awakening. I won't say that I'm awakenED. I will say that I'm awakenING, if that makes any sense. I've been sort of thinking that some of these things might come up over the course of us talking today, and in some ways, I think I am baffled that I'm doing this and I'm grateful that I am doing this, but... If you had met me 10 years ago, and you had told me... If I had come to you for a session 10 years ago, of course I wouldn't have come to you for a session 10 years ago because I wouldn't have dared to 10 years ago, based on where I was, and you had told me that I was going to be doing this kind of work and all of that, I would have laughed. I would have thought, Boy, he has confirmed that he is just as crazy. I went in here and paid him money, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah. Slade: I probably would have told you. Scott: Yeah, I know. And I would have been like, You're crazy! Slade: I would be that person people always tell me about. I hear this all the time, 'A psychic told me once' and I'm always in the chain of... I'm never the first one to tell them, which is probably cool. Scott: Correct. Slade: I'd rather be at the end of that line of... Just to go back to this miracle for a second, with your great-great-grandfather... Scott: Absolutely. Slade: You know what, if it's okay with you, I'll post a transcript of your Facebook post so everybody can kind of read some of that detail, because it's different every time you tell it, right? There's a different perspective. Scott: It is! Which tells me it was different every time it was told to me so who knows exactly. There have also been members of my family who've worked really hard at debunking the story too. We'll talk about that in a minute if you like, but yeah... Slade: Well tell me, did you ever speak to anyone who actually witnessed this? Scott: Okay. The first family reunion, and it's interesting that all this is coming up, because in two weeks, I will be at the site of all this again. Okay? In two weeks, my family is having a reunion in Jellico. Because I'm the person who knows the stories, and knows where all the people are buried. I'm probably the last person alive, at least in this branch of my family who could take you to the graves of everyone who has come before us. Anyway, I don't know where I was going with that, but the first thing at every reunion, I take my tape player and I, because when I was a kid, my parents for my 5th birthday, my parents bought me a tape recorder, okay? So I was always just recording things and I knew that some of my older family members were going to be there, and I knew I wanted to get some things on tape. I also knew that my grandmother was toward the younger end of the family. So my grandmother, and even her mother who passed away, who died really young, she probably wasn't there for what happened either. But I was there. My grandmother's best friend, Helen Seal, who she grew up with, came down from Michigan to be part of the reunion because: She and my grandmother were like sisters and, The coal-mining camp where everybody was originated there in Tennessee and Kentucky. Everybody was very much like family so Helen came down. Helen was still part of, she's passed now, but she was part of the Church of God of the Mountain Assembly in Michigan. So she still attended the church but in Michigan. You know I said a lot of people went to Michigan to work in the automobile factories when the coal mines dried up. Slade: Right. Scott: So Helen was also just a great storyteller. She had long grey hair that she wrapped up in a bun. She was just a spitfire of a woman so I knew I wanted to talk to her about it. And I wish I could find the tape. It's going to be that mythical tape that's lost, that I can't find now. Sort of like Nixon's tape that's missing from Watergate. Yeah, but she's telling me, and it starts out, she says, 'I know you want to talk about the time Brother Parks was lifted to the ceiling church, and many years ago, I asked Sister Parks what she thought about it.' So she goes into this story, okay, and she wasn't there, but she was getting it, she was telling me her version of Sister, of my great-great-grandmother telling her the story. Okay? Slade: Okay. Scott: Then Helen's husband, Oble, he, I don't know how he knew this, because he didn't live there, but he said that there was an old lady living in the community, Granny Mobely was her name, Granny Mobely (sounds like a Lee Smith novel)... Slade: It does. Scott: It does! Granny Mobely, who was there at the time, right, and I said, Where does she live? And he said, Well I don't know. It's , I don't know, or I didn't know to just go down to the grocery store and ask people where Granny Mobely lived, but I never investigated that any further. I was into college and changing schools and all of that. So I never got any first hand account. I do know that the church has some official records and there have been two books that they have put out, two little books, where they tell the story. Also, he kept a journal as well that one of his other descendants has. I was thinking, How many descendants must he have? My great-great-grandparents had like, 8 children. And so, if you think about probably... There are probably thousands of people now who are descended from them, living today. But one of my cousins' distant relatives, probably what I would call a 5th cousin, in Michigan, who's the pastor of one of the churches there, oddly enough, has his journal, where he wrote some things down. I've never been able to get ahold of that. I've wanted it. I've sent requests. I've asked for copies of it. I've tried to communicate with people about it and that's never been... No one's ever been able... No one's ever been willing to communicate with me about that, which just adds to the mystery and tells me that one day I will see it. You know how that goes. He used to prophesize well too, about great birds with people in them flying through the air. That one day, people would be, one day, this is Oble Seal told me this, that one day he was out preaching, he said, One day, there'll be people on the moon. And this was in the 30s, right? And I don't know what we were talking about in the 30s. I don't know about... I mean, I'm sure there were, certainly there were aircrafts in the 30s. I don't know how many he would have had access to, but there certainly had not been astronauts in the 30s yet. Slade: We had Jules Verne and we had, I don't remember if that... What was it that Hans Fritz movie, Metropolis, or... There's some really, really old creepy black-and-white movie I think that might portray people travelling on rockets to the moon, right? Scott: Yeah, so maybe that's... I don't... Who knows if he had access to seeing those... Slade: Umhmm... Oh yeah! Scott: You know, probably not. So I don't know. And I wish that I could find that tape. I know it was in the attic where I used to live, and then I've moved since then. I don't know where that box of tapes went. You know how that kind of thing goes. Slade: It's a great set up for a novel. Scott: Yeah, I know. It is! Slade: Someone finds the box of tapes in the attic and then, you know. Of course, in the story, you're both your 40-year old self and your 95-year old self so we can switch back and forth between time periods. I can see the whole thing right now. Scott: Absolutely. Yeah, that's very good. Thank you very much! That's good inspiration for that. Slade: Yes! Scott: Reverend Parks also is part of my work that I do here today too. He's one of what I call my 'assistants' and my 'guides'. Slade: So he's like an ancestor guide? Scott: He's an ancestor guide and when I'm working with someone specifically in a healing type session, he very strongly appears. Slade: Interesting! Scott: A lot of really tuned-in people say, Who is the bearded man here who is not you? Slade: Ooo! Scott: That's Grandpa. Pay him no mind. He's very much who I call in to help when, you know, need a space cleaned out, he's very helpful with those kinds of things. He's very good at removing what I call, reptilian type energies from folks as well. Slade: You know, I have to say, it just occurred to me as I was asking you that question about the whole connection with Christianity versus this kind of supernatural stuff, one of the things that became really apparent to me, because I always thought of myself as very much sort of against fundamentalism, still do... Scott: Same here. Slade: Very anti-Christian, all that kind of stuff. But one of the things that I have observed, kind of begrudgingly in the beginning, was that the people who are more open to talking about mysticism are by nature people of faith. And so, if you go to an older generation of people and you want to talk about supernatural stuff, there's a lot more little old church ladies that want to talk about spirits and healing and communication from the dead and all that kind of stuff, and are a lot more open to it than, certainly than an atheist is going to be, or an intellectual from our generation is going to shut that down much more quickly too. And so I learned very quickly to kind of have this universal translator running in my mind and to realize that that was the language they were given to speak with, you know, was the language of the Bible in the culture that they grew up in and so, that's what they had to work with. But some of the things that they will tell you and some of the things that they will describe are just straight up like, Well this is total paranormal investigation! Scott: This is straight up like off Sylvia Browne. Slade: Totally, totally! Scott: Yeah. Slade: So it's made me a little bit more open-minded in myself. I have had to be more open-minded about the fact that when you strip away the vocabulary and you strip away whatever theology's comfortable and whatever symbolism is used, in both camps, or in any camp and all the camps, you'll find that there are people who are extremely plugged in and sensitive and aware and awakening and all that kind of stuff. And then you will find people who are going through the motions and claiming to get it when they don't and then you have people who are just completely tuned out. But that idea of who that someone is who is plugged in transcends everything else. And so when I recognize another person who's 'plugged-in', I don't care. All that other stuff is transparent. You see through it. And so I had these experiences where I have talked to these little old ladies who use the Jesus vocabulary through the whole thing, but meanwhile, they're the most likely to get what it is that I do and to be accepting of it. Scott: I had an aunt who was, she always used to like to renounce the spirit of fear. That was one of her big things that she liked to do. Slade: Ooo I like that. Scott: Renounce the spirit of fear, you know. Here, 25 years later, I start into A Course in Miracles and talking about love and fear and all of those things, and I'm like, Good grief Rita, you were onto it all along. Slade: It reminds me of the Bene Gesserit Litany against fear from doom. Do you know it? Scott: No, I don't. Slade: Okay. I'll put it in the show notes. Fear is the mind killer. Anyway. It's a little litany that the nun-like witch organization in that world.. It's a chant that they do when facing fear. It's a way of, kind of like... Scott: Fair enough. Slade: ...allowing the fear to pass over and through you. I can't recite it off the top of my head right now but I'll put it in the show notes for your sake if no one else's. Scott: For my ADD's sake, I'm trying to sit here not get on my phone and look it up while we're talking. Slade: I know! Don't do that in the middle of an interview! Scott: Yeah, I'm not. I'm definitely not doing that. I'm thinking, he'd never know. This is audio, but you'd know, because you're you! Slade: The litany against fear. It's really good. It's up there with the Serendipity prayer, and, you know, it's one of those tools for me. It's a mantra for sure. So I gotta ask you this. Scott: Please. Slade: Given your perspective and where you are in everything, I see you as someone who is kind of an archivist in a way, of all this old knowledge and old wisdom. You've got pieces of it, more so than others might. And so, as you think about how you are breaking that all down, sort of processing it and then putting it back together and give it new life and new form, what do you most hope to contribute to the conversation about spirituality? Scott: You know, it's to really... There's so many trappings that folks put on it. And just let go. That's one thing that I'm always telling folks. Just let go and stop trying to control absolutely everything. Just allow. Seek the truth for yourself and allow it to come. You can study whatever you want to study, but be open to the sources that the truth might come to you. Be open to what speak to you. Be open to what doesn't speak to you. Sometimes what doesn't speak to you speaks to you more than... because it doesn't speak to you, if that makes sense. In the 12-steps circles, people talk about 'let go and let God', you know, let go and let Spirit do Spirit's work, and realizing that a lot of that happens in a very subtle way in that it often times doesn't happen very instantly. It's a process and also that just because we're spiritual, just because we studied the Law of Attraction, which is great, you know, it's fine. It's not the only law there is though. Just because we've read this and watched the latest YouTube video, just because we've done this or this or this, it doesn't absolve us from doing the work on ourselves. And from taking, you know, sometimes I tell the folks that I'm working with, if nothing else, I'm gonna be able to, hopefully, with some assistance here, provide you at least some kind of mirror so that you can see yourself honestly, and see your path in a way that you've not seen it before. At least as honest as I can convey it to you, as honest as you're able to see it, but to look very closely inside for the answers and not externally. Because the answers for me are not the answers for you, and there's certainly some universal truths, but the path for everybody is slightly different. And each person has his or her own expression. And I just feel like I'm babbling, Slade. I love that question. Slade: It's meant to be a stumper but it's also meant to be a prompt to... Well, I used to ask people what really bugs the shit out of them in all this crap. And then I realized, Heather O'Shea I think was the person who was like, 'I'm going to reframe that, make it more positive'. And I was like, 'Okay, that's a good idea'. And so, going forward, I try to re-frame that as a more positive thing. Scott: One thing I would say is, this is not a cake mix. Okay? This is not... You realize there are certain... We don't have as much control over things in our world as we do over baking a cake. It's a good analogy, but again, it's not the best analogy. Okay? I do believe that the new thought community talks about planting seeds and watering seeds and all that, but the idea is that you've got to plant the appropriate seeds for the thing that you want. Right? And... Slade: And you have to do it. You have to tend it. Scott: YOU have to tend your garden. Remember, from Candide, and he goes through all that and Candide at the end: All of this is well and good. All of this is well and good. I've encountered the woman who had her ass eaten because of steak or something, but I still had to cultivate my own garden. You know? I still had to cultivate my own garden. And Pangloss is saying, 'All is well and good in this best of all possible worlds.' And Candide's saying, 'Yes, thank you, but I still have to cultivate my own garden', and that is me planting the appropriate seeds and doing the literal work of putting the thing together. Keep seeing things. If you can think it, you can be it. If you can dream it, you can be it. On one level, that's certainly true. You know? I know that there's a lot of hope for people in that as well. But if it were that simple, we wouldn't have any problems. If it were that simple... I hear a lot of talk about... Everything's all the Law of Attraction this, and the Law of Attraction that, and that is certainly all well and good and there's so much truth there, right? But it's not simply just thinking happy thoughts all the time and everything will be okay. It's about embodying a new way to be, and truly, not just sprouting affirmations (hehe, 'sprouting'), not just spouting affirmations at yourself. Sprouting - I'm using that seed metaphor. Slade: Right. Taking it all the way through Scott: Yeah, taking it all the way through. Thank you! It's... You can't just say, 'I am at peace with myself' and 'today's going to be better' and everything just work out. You have to go a little bit deeper than that. You have to do what affirmations really do. You have to... The nice thing that I love, because I deal with a lot of affirmations with folks that I work with is to say, 'Use this as an affirmation.' And 'You'll know it's working if, after you've done this for a couple of days, you feel worse.' Because that means it's lodged itself in those deep recesses of the things that you don't want to have to deal with and it's bringing it all to the surface. It's going in there and it's sort of destroying the energy of the thing you no longer want, and it's just all bubbling up like stomach acid, right? In that way, you know you're on the right track. Slade: Interesting... Scott: There's always that thing is, I want to feel better and I want to feel better NOW. And I'm always like, we can all feel better, but we still have to do something. You know? We still have to take a look at our ourselves. Slade: Well, you know, and you don't just do it once either. I think the... If I was answering your question with the way that you're answering it, I would say that, the thing that really kicks you in the gut when you realize that you have to get up and re-do it every day. You have to start over and over and over again and every day. I mean, some things might carry you through longer arcs of time, but really, it's not A decision. It's thousands of decisions. It's thousands of times making the same decision over and over again. Scott: It's a whole spiritual practice. It's not just a set of isolated things. It's a whole spiritual practice, you know? Like yoga is a spiritual practice. It's a whole thing. It's not just going to a class now and then. Although I love going to yoga classes, but it's a whole spiritual practice that I have to embody. And I have to figure out a new way to BE, not just a new way to think, not just a new way to act, but a whole new way to BE if I want some results in that way. But certainly I know inside of me, given, left to my own devices, I'll always usually pick the easy way out. Slade: Scott, it's so good to capture one or maybe a handful of your stories. I know that we still have so many others that we could do, but I'm glad that we finally got one in the can. I really want to appreciate you for coming on and telling your story. Tell everyone where they can go find you online. Scott: Yeah! It's sort of the entrepreneur phase of my life right now but ScottDouglasVaughn.com is the website for my spiritual work. Also I'm a photographer! I take pictures of abandoned buildings and things like that. And all of this grew out of that same summer, summer of 2012 that I was talking about a little bit earlier. That's ScottVaughnphotography.com My website, ScottDouglasVaughn.com is pretty good insight into what I'm doing right now.

If you are interested in the low-carb, moderate protein, high-fat, ketogenic diet, then this is the podcast for you. We zero in exclusively on all the questions people have about how being in a state of nutritional ketosis and the effects it has on your health. There are a lot of myths about keto floating around out there and our two amazing cohosts are shooting them down one at a time. Keto Talk is cohosted by 10-year veteran health podcaster and international bestselling author Jimmy Moore from “Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb” and Pittsburgh, PA functional medicine practitioner Dr. Will Cole from DrWillCole.com who thoroughly share from their wealth of experience on the ketogenic lifestyle each and every Thursday. We love hearing from our fabulous Ketonian listeners with new questions–send an email to Jimmy at livinlowcarbman@charter.net. And if you’re not already subscribed to the podcast on iTunes and listened to the past episodes, then you can do that and leave a review HERE. Listen in today as Jimmy and special guest co-host Maria Emmerich share the Keto good news in Episode 96. INSURANCE JUST FOR KETONIANS NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: Paid sponsorship YOUR NEW KETO DIET ALLY NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: Paid sponsorship “I fear for the future of our kids when I see the marketing aimed at our children. We have to teach kids that food is their medicine.” – Maria Emmerich HERE’S WHAT JIMMY AND MARIA TALKED ABOUT IN EPISODE 96: Maria shares about her two new books Easy Dairy-Free Ketogenic Recipes: Family Favorites Made Low-Carb and Healthy and Keto: The Complete Guide to Success on The Ketogenic Diet, including Simplified Science and No-cook Meal – Creating Your Family Health Tree MAKE KETO EASIER WITH FBOMB NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: Paid sponsorship – What can a spouse eating keto do to best deal with a non-supportive spouse who doesn’t approve of their chosen diet? Hey Jimmy and Maria, Of all the tips and answers you've provided to questions around ketogenic diets, I haven't heard anyone talk about the impact they can have on your relationships. I have an amazing wife who is the mother of our two small children. When I started keto diet last year, she was supportive of my efforts for the first six weeks I was doing it. Part of the challenge was I set her expectations that this would only be a temporary thing. However, once I started seeing some incredibly positive results, I had to continue doing it to reap the benefits. But this is when it created a rift in our relationship. She watched me eat meat and cook foods in bacon grease and couldn’t understand how that could possibly be healthy as she subscribes to a more conventional low-fat diet. Additionally, feeding our kids has been hard (although they do love their daddy’s bacon!). So I decided to relax my ketogenic approach in order to appease my wife and introduced carbs back into my diet. Now I want to do periods of intermittent and extended fasting to mitigate the effects of those added carbs. If my wife reacted to keto the way she did, I can’t imagine how she’s gonna respond to the other F-word. My marriage is very important to me and so is my health. Do you have any tips on how a ketogenic spouse can deal with their spouse who is not supporting their ketogenic way of eating? Thanks for all you do! Scott "You can be loving with family members, but you have to let them know that your health is important not only for you, but for them as well." – Jimmy Moore – RECIPES FROM MARIA: http://mariamindbodyhealth.com/bacon-pizza/ http://mariamindbodyhealth.com/bacon-cannoli/ THE PERFECT KETO SUPPLEMENT USE COUPON CODE LLVLC FOR 15% OFF NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: Paid sponsorship 1. What vitamin and mineral requirements change from what is in the RDA when you adopt a ketogenic diet? Hey guys, I've spent a lot of time learning and implementing the exact ketogenic approach that’s right for me. But it occurred to me as I reviewed my micronutrient intake on keto that the RDA levels from our government are based on a carbohydrate-eating population. The sodium recommendation, for example, is 2.3 grams daily which is woefully inept for someone in nutritional ketosis for a wide variety of reasons you’ve already discussed many times on this podcast. But this example of how far off the RDA for sodium has got me thinking what other micronutrients were are way off on with the recommended daily allowance. I read a study that suggests keto dieters need far less Vitamin C than carb-based eaters. So what other vitamins and mineral RDA requirements might be impacted for someone following a well-formulated ketogenic diet? This seems like an interesting subject to explore. Blaine 2. Why does a ketogenic diet and fasting lead to a white or yellow coating on the tongue and will it eventually go away? Hey Keto Talk, Many people have pointed out their breath and tongue change while eating a ketogenic diet and during a fast. I’ve seen people posting pictures of their tongue that show a white or yellow coating. What in the world is this and will it eventually go away? Warm regards, Emi BECOME A NUTRITIONAL THERAPY PRACTITIONER Sign up by February 2018 for the 9-month program NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: Paid sponsorship 3. Why did my body suddenly stop thriving despite still being in a state of nutritional ketosis? Hi Jimmy and Maria, I started my keto diet a couple of weeks ago and it was typical—the first 3 days were miserable, but on day 4 I felt a drastically better as the ketones kicked in. I had five days of incredible energy, suppressed appetite, and superb cognitive benefits as my blood ketones soared into the 2-3 mmol range. It was great! But then things took a change for the worse as I suddenly started feeling cranky, sluggish, and dealing with brain fog. My ketones dipped slightly, but I was still well into ketosis at 1.5+ on the blood meter. I’ve been drinking plenty of water, consuming sodium, magnesium, and potassium for all the electrolyte benefits. So my questions for you guys is this: Did my body start rejecting the ketones I had been thriving on because it wanted to shift back to burning glucose again? Or is this simply a part of becoming keto-adapted? Any suggestions you have about my situation would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, Rob   NOTICE OF DISCLOSURE: Paid sponsorship KETO TALK MAILBOX – Can a BAC breath alcohol analyzer measure ketone levels accurately? Are ketone levels of 5.0+ dangerous? Hi Jimmy and Maria, I have a quick question about using a simple breath alcohol analyzer to test ketone levels. From my understanding, you multiply the number you get on the BAC meter by 4-5 to get the equivalent blood ketone reading. So a 0.4 reading on the BAC would equate to 1.6-2.0 mmol in blood ketones. Is this a valid way to test for ketosis? I know it’s probably inaccurate, but how far off is it? Using this equation to determine my level of ketones with my keto and fasting efforts, I got a 1.3 reading on the BAC which would equate to 5.2-6.5 mmol on the blood ketone meter. Is this a dangerous level of ketones to have? Thank you for answering my question. Tai Apple Podcasts reviews:   LINKS MENTIONED IN EPISODE 96 – SUPPORT OUR SPONSOR: Life Insurance For Your Keto Lifestyle (Use promo code LOW-CARB) – SUPPORT OUR SPONSOR: Staying in ketosis just got easier – Your new keto-diet ally (Enter MOORE15 at checkout for fifteen percent off your first order.) – SUPPORT OUR SPONSOR: Drop an FBOMB for the freshest, high-quality fats from JimmyLovesFBomb.com (Get 10% off your first food order with coupon code “JIMMYLOVESFBOMB”) – SUPPORT OUR SPONSOR: Jump start your ketogenic diet with PerfectKeto.com/Jimmy (USE PROMO CODE LLVLC FOR 15% OFF) – SUPPORT OUR SPONSOR: Become A Nutritional Therapy Practitioner – SUPPORT OUR SPONSOR: The perfect keto-friendly snack with 85% FAT (Use coupon code JIMMY to get 15% off your order of Gra-POW!) – Creating Your Family Health Tree – http://mariamindbodyhealth.com/bacon-pizza/ – http://mariamindbodyhealth.com/bacon-cannoli/ – Easy Dairy-Free Ketogenic Recipes: Family Favorites Made Low-Carb and Healthy – Keto: The Complete Guide to Success on The Ketogenic Diet, including Simplified Science and No-cook Meal – Jimmy Moore from “Livin’ La Vida Low-Carb” – DR. Will Cole D.C. from DrWillCole.com – Maria Emmerich  

Ban the Banhammer - Episode 28 Scott and Randy discuss the (mis)use of the various forms of the "ban" tool, and provide alternative techniques. Show Links It's Almost Impossible to Rehabilitate an Online Troll, Steve Brock Director of Moderation Services at Mzinga Building Web Reputation Systems SMC Epsiode 14: LinkedIn's Scarlet Letter #CMAD presents: Modern Moderation: Moving Beyond Trolls and Ban Hammers (stream)Streamed live on Jan 26, 2016 - Join us to talk tech with Justin Isaf, to ramble about reputations with F. Randall Farmer, to ponder proactive tasks with Sarah Hawk, to advocate for automation with Darren Gough, and to learn the legal aspects with Aurelia Butler-Ball. Transcript Randy: Ban the ban hammer. Scott: What? Randy: Ban the ban hammer. Scott: Wait a minute. We gotta talk about this. Randy: Welcome to the Social Media Clarity Podcast. 15 minutes of concentrated analysis and advice about social media and platform and product design. Scott: So in this episode we're going to focus on what seems to be the moderator's tool of choice, the ban. Randy: And how it is, most often in our experience, the wrong tool. Scott: Yeah, it could be the right tool in the right circumstance, but it's mostly misapplied. Randy: Yeah, if you're reaching for it first, it's probably the wrong tool, but we'll talk about that in detail. We could set this up by talking a little bit about our experiences encountering other people talking about the ban hammer. Scott, you find a wonderful reference post. Do you want to tell us a little bit about it? Scott: Sure. So, this is just an example. Steve Brock who's the director of moderation services at Mzinga that talked about the difficulties of rehabilitating online trolls. But in it he's talking a lot about bans. How to identify trolls, how to ban, what different bans are, and how to apply them, and whether or not they are effective. So this is a good example of how a lot people tend to think about dealing with misbehavior in online communities. Randy: Although, we're going to be picking a little bit on Mr. Brock, by no means is he unique in most of these positions. In fact, were going to talk a little bit about how each point has its own challenges and each point carries forward the error of the previous one, and it leads you to a place this is both undesirable and expensive. Scott: So what are the steps, Randy Randy: The steps are first you identify the troll, figure out who it is you're wanting to take action on. Someone who is doing harm to your site. You perma-ban them. We'll explain the different bans in a few minutes. The idea is to kick them off the site and make their identity no longer accessible. He also suggests removing all content, doesn't mean they're all bad. And if they return with a new account, immediately ban that as soon as you detect that. You could try hell-banning. This is number five, he says, "But they'll find out." He's actually right about that, and then he says, "Well, the abuse will get worse once they figure out you're pulling tricks on them." It turns out, number six, you have to assume that they can't be reformed, so you've got to stay vigilant. You have to stay on it all the time. And for his final step he says, "Therefore, you need 24 7 coverage and so you need to hire enough moderators to cover your site." It's our contention that this entire list that leads to outsourced 24 7 coverage of your site and a constant battle with removing people follows from errors starting at the very beginning of the list. Scott: But before we get into that, let's actually define a few of the terms that have come up already. Perma-ban, it's a ban that is based on the identity, banning the account. There's no fixed time out. That's it. You ban them, they're gone. You can ban based on their account. You can hit their IP address. You could try to ban them based on credit card so they can't start a new account if you're a paid account. Also, there's kind of this nuclear option of removing all of the content. Regardless of whether some of the content was actually good, you ban the person, therefore, their content must also go too. So, that's the perma-ban. Randy: I'll talk a little bit about hell-banning, which I mentioned earlier. This is also known as shadow-banning, stealth-banning, or ghost-banning. It's strange. It's hiding content from the community except for the creator of the content, the person you're hell-banning. The idea is, you'll see that you posted, but no one else will see the post. Meant to be discouraging, or meant to just let you burn out your energy. It goes all the way back to The Well. The Well had a method for doing this where people would actually selectively stop reading content from other people, and this led to destroyed threads that no one what was going on in the thread because you could never tell who was actually reading what. I want to quickly, even though I know were just making a list, I want to go ahead and shoot hell-banning in the head- Scott: Yup. Randy: So we don't have to talk about it much more. Because this involves a bunch of complicated technology, which is trivially defeated by anyone who is malicious and confusing to those who aren't. Scott: Yup. Randy: The community doesn't know what they're missing, and when someone knows someone and talks about it and they find out they're hell-banned, you end up with the community talking about hell-banning, not whatever your content is. Scott: Right. Randy: Scott and I are both unified. There's a lot of moderators like us. Do not waste any time on technology to hide from your user that their behavior is unacceptable. Scott: It wastes a lot of time because it leads inevitably to two results. Steve Brock calls it out perfectly. They'll find out, and then they just abuse even more and even harder because they feel like they've been cheated in some way. And then the other one is anyone else who isn't hell-banned or ghost-banned gets paranoid about whether or not they've been ghost-banned. If any technical glitch occurs, then they suddenly think that some action has been taken against them. This is not healthy for your community. You'll spend time assuaging people of their paranoia then you will building the actual community and trust. It destroys trust. So those are two types of bans. There's another type of ban, if you will, and it's the time out. It's a temporary suspension from being able to contribute in some particular way. This breaks up into a couple of ways. You can limit somebody's permission where they can't post, or they can't reply. You can even limit their ability to log into the system, but the idea is that it's a time out, so that you can communicate with the person. Or you can degrade their service. Randy, you have some good stories about degrading service. Randy: There are often reputations systems for detecting egregious behaviors, and I'm talking about is specifically, the spamming behavior. I worked for Yahoo for five years. When they would detect either a mail spamming bot, or a bot hitting the search engine to get results to use to make SCO, what they didn't do is ban IP addresses. What they did instead was build a reputation database and degraded service. What that meant was, when a request would come in from a highly suspected spamming robot, they would serve it, they would just serve it very slowly. This is kind of a low level taxing. What happens if you ban them all, we've seen one of the few days yahoo was actually down, they made a change to their interface for search, and all the spamming robots in the world that were hitting yahoo started failing instantly. They were getting instant errors back from the web servers. This was creating a denial of service attack, as a result of all the robots who were never used to failing now retrying instantaneously. So hundreds of thousands of robots were now sending hundreds of requests per minute. Scott: Yeah, that's bad. Randy: They put back the interface because there was this kind of detante in degraded service design. Scott: So that's not the same thing as ghost-banning, that's just degrading somebody's service because it's targeted. Spammers want to be able to spread their spam as quickly as possible and move on to the next target, and if you slow them down, you're actually costing them money. Randy: Spamming behavior is different from whatever trolling behavior is. The reason we say ban the banhammer is because cases like we've outlined here are missing the key point. The category error is the difference between troll and trolling. The difference between being a spammer, a person, and spamming. We really have a problem with online social contributions. It isn't people, it's behaviors. The only thing you can really evaluate is the content. It's trolling that's the problem, not trolls. Scott: Right. It's really important, and we've talked about his in the past, and I talk about this when I give workshops, you focus on the behavior, not on the person. In Sociology, there's a thing called the fundamental attribution error, and that's basically when you take a behavior and you ascribe that as a personality trait to a person. So if somebody does something that is a violation of your terms of service, they post something that is borderline racist, they are not necessarily a racist. They are not necessarily a troll. They've done something and then that's a specific behavior that can be addressed as opposed to simply assuming this is who they are and they'll never ever be different. You do wind up in the exactly that idea of trolls can never be reformed if you make certain assumptions that their behavior is tied intrinsically to their personality. We just know that's not true. Randy: We even know that ID's aren't people. Back to the post, the person comes back over and over with multiple ID's. So an ID banning solution is no solution at all. But sometimes, it's the reverse. Sometimes there's no person. When we start talking about spamming, the spammer, the mythical person who is doing the spamming is not reachable. He's got a hundred thousand robots doing stuff. You don't even know where he is. You don't know how to reach him. You can't back through those robots. It's the robots that are exhibiting the behavior. So you have to deal with the robots in that case. In the case of trolling, you have to deal with the trolling posts. What are the things that are causing a problem. What are against your terms of service or your community guidelines. Scott: We're saying ban the banhammer. When you're reaching that as your first tool, it's probably the wrong thing to reach for, but there are times when we do need to use this kind of a tool in specific instances, and spamming is one of those instances. Scott: Let's define it a little bit better, because a lot of people will call all kinds of things spamming, including just an off color comment. Scott: They have zero or even negative quality to your community. They have absolutely no contribution at all. They're not even part of the discussion. There's a lot of them, or they're coming really fast. There's not a human behind those particular posts. At that particular point, what we're doing is we're throttling the input. Instead of treating it as a community problem. We're treating it as a bandwidth problem. Randy: And bans are not my first tool for dealing with that. My first tool for dealing with that is content hiding, described at the end of my book, "Building Web Reputation Systems." In the final chapter we talk about how we enabled users on Yahoo Answers to mark items, such as spam, and we started to trust them. We came up with a method by which we could trust them and we could literally, within 30 seconds of when a piece of spam would come up, it would be hidden from the network. What hidden means is kind of the opposite of hell-banning. That item disappears for everybody, and a notice is sent back to the author, and this deals with that problem, which is if the author is just a robot, the author can't mitigate it. You won't be sending back a note saying, "No, no, no, this is my real content. I got ganged up on," or something. This is why, when we turned on this mechanism on Yahoo Answers, spamming vanished, literally within two weeks. The spammers picked up and they left and they went somewhere else. Scott: And that's because you were using the crowd to surgically remove the bad content. Randy: Yes. So the point there is there was no banning of the user account. It wasn't necessary. The user account became inactive because it no longer could successfully post. Scott: You didn't have to ban anybody. They abandoned their effort. Randy: That same process is used on accounts that are more tightly tied to people, the people who care about their postings. If they have them reported using the same mechanism, not for spamming, but for tastelessness, or some breaking of the rules. The same mechanism will trigger. The content could be hidden and they would receive a note explaining to them what the community gave them as feedback about what needs to change, and they could change it. They weren't banned. The problem with the ban is when it does tie to a person, it's an ending. It's an invitation either to an escalation or an ending. It's the last thing you should ever do if you do it. If the first thing you do is ban someone, they can't correct the behavior, and you come off very poorly. Scott: It's a slap in the face. Randy: The customer lost forever. Scott: At Schwab Learning, I had the ability to ban people, but we never did. We dealt with spam by an escalation process. It would evaluate what came in, and I would either pull the content, or I would hold the content, but I would always contact the person. I had different levels of contact. I had the, "Oh, you made a mistake. What you wrote looks like spam. I'd love to hear more about you." And so that's not an ending. I was opening up a bigger beginning. "Tell me more. Please participate more, and prove to me that this isn't just spam, but it looks like spam, so I'm worried about it." Then, there was the self-promoters. There was this gray area about solicitation in that particular community. So we'd have some people who were very well meaning, and would make their own products, and would want to promote them to other parents, and I would say, "Hey, you know, I'm really sorry but self promotion is not okay, but if you want to talk about other things, and you want to promote this on your profile, when you talk about other things on our community, people will see your profile, and then they'll see what you're trying to advertise. We're giving you that space to be able to do that. Then there was, "That's it. You're a spammer. I've pulled your content. You violated my terms of service. Please don't come back. I've canceled things." That always gave a chance for somebody to give me a response back. We didn't have a huge amount of spam, but invariably if it was that bad, nobody responded. But I would usually get some kind of response from the other messages from anything from, "Oops, I'm sorry," to "How dare you." We took it from there. But that was a discussion. Randy: Yeah. So what you want is beginnings, right? You want dialogues, as much as you can afford them. If you're going to pay people to moderate, they should be having conversations, not just destroying them. Scott: Ideally. Unfortunately, a lot of moderation services aren't really set up that way. They're set up to remove content based on terms of service. It's difficult to find moderation services that you can spend the money, to take the time, to help actually foster communities. It's a shame. Randy: It's mostly a scaling problem. If you've got user generated content in great quantity, as I mentioned earlier, if you're going to invest in tools, don't invest in hell-banning. Invest instead in customer feedback so that the users can tell each other how to behave and reinforce that behavior. That's one way to increase the leverage you get out of your paid moderation people so they can spend time with specific cases that need their attention. If the community is keeping the new kid who shows up and doesn't know how to behave from posting a crappy question or answer on Stack Overflow, then you don't need paid moderators. In fact, Stack Overflow is one of the largest, richest communities with the highest quality content of it's type in the world and it has very, very few top level moderators. All moderation tasks are actually done by any contributor who cares enough to generate enough content of enough quality on the site. If you ever want to see what a site looks like when it doesn't live with a banhammer as it's first line of defense, Stack Overflow or any of the Stack Exchange servers are really interesting to show how they incrementally give authority to you as you succeed in contributing to the community. Scott: At Schwab Learning, there was a point where I started to teach the other community members exactly what I was doing. I decided there was a point where I said, "I'm just going to be transparent about this, and start doing this in the public." Especially when it was the nice stuff, and started showing people how I approached potential spammers by addressing their behavior and saying, "Hey, maybe this is a mistake. We'd like to hear more from you." The community picked up on it. I was no longer the first line of defense against spam. The community became the first line of defense. What they would do is they would engage with anyone who looked like it was spam, and they would try to talk to them and draw them out, and if they weren't able to draw them out, then they would bump it up to me and say, "I think this person's actually trying to spam us." Randy: I do consulting on social media product design, and discussions about moderation are a critical part of what I consult on. So new clients often give me administrator access, or moderator access to their communities so that I can see what's going on behind the scenes. One of my clients, I was looking around for moderation information and I discovered a profile for a user, and they had a field on the profile that the administrator's could see that said how often they'd been banned. This person had been banned six times. This is the example of the banhammer going insane. These are perma-bans. You prevent them from participating and then apparently, they could appeal, and then you could put them back on, and then they ban them again for similar behaviors and so on. The banhammer is the wrong tool. In fact, every offense was the same, and it was a minor offense. Technology changes to the software to discourage that behavior that would have been more effective in changing the behavior. Scott: So we're saying ban the banhammer and we've been giving hints at things to do instead, ways to think about behavior online that won't cause you to think, "I've got to use that banhammer right away." And so, let's get real detailed and talk about exactly what you can do instead of using the banhammer. Randy: Number one, start by defining the behaviors you want to encourage and the ones you're trying to discourage from your contributors in your community. This should be baseline for choosing the actions you take going forward. Scott: These behaviors are not people. Yes, you have your community guidelines, but understand that if somebody violates a community guideline you don't punish the person. You give them an opportunity to correct the behavior. Randy: Amen. So based on your available resources, you can either develop tools to facilitate the community marking the content, to give feedback privately to the contributor, so that they know they should make some changes. Scott: Giving them a chance means that you're focusing on the content that they're producing. If a piece of content is clearly violating your terms of service, or a piece of content is clearly being generated by a bot, or it's clearly a spam going off to somewhere else, or it's illegal, then yes, you're going to want to remove the content. Randy: If you're at scale, you need the tools you need to find them. Sometimes your community is small, and a personal conversation is the right choice. Other times, your community is huge and you have to have the tools to scale or you will never solve the problem. People have tried to buy the solution with human moderation, and they've all given up. At scale, you need help. You need tools, and if you're lucky you can get tools to enable your community to do a lot of the basic work. Scott: Even if you're not at scale, don't overlook the ability to enlist your community in helping you identify and correct behaviors of people who are coming into your community. We're talking about avoiding the banhammer, which is a tool, and we're talking about all the other ways you can reduce damaging behavior in your community, and these are skills that anybody can employ including your community. So you can teach your community the same things. Teach them to engage and try to sus out the difference between is this person actually trying to harm you, or is this person just making a misstep about their behavior? If they can't handle it, then you become the escalation process. You then support your community as a community and you can get a small amount of scale even with a small community out of this. Randy: Very true. And you might be able to get incremental tool development to support the community. So for example, if you don't have a community platform, if you don't have report abuse as a button on content, assuming you have that much incremental tool development maybe significantly cheaper if all you want to do is count the number of people who mark this thing as violating the terms of service. Stack Overflow has a tool I'm not a big fan of but it's functional. You can spend one of your points to actually give someone a negative score. I don't like the math of this, but if enough negatives go in fast enough, they immediately read it as a hidden content line. So they get community feedback immediately, and then there's an escalation process that can occur to appeal. They recently changed this to improve the initial response, negative feedback pattern by changing the name from deleted to on hold, which invites a conversation and to have a community practice of, is it you leaving negative, one, or anything other than the most obvious spamming behavior, you should leave a comment about how to improve the post. It's kind of a social system that they've evolved to go along with their mechanical systems. A mechanical system doesn't have to be complicated, but it provides a mechanism for social evolution. Scott: Reframing the idea of flagging away from this is bad, it shouldn't be here, to this is problematic, and we want to fix it. Randy: I consulted on discourse.org's moderation mechanism and it does just that. When several people mark a thing as a problem, and the problem is not illegal or spam, but it's a content problem, the content still gets hidden, but the message that goes the user invites them to edit it, to fix based on the feedback from the community, and if they do edit it, it will be able to be re-posted immediately with no flags on it. So we say, "You can fix it. You can go back to square zero with this post, immediately. Give it a try." So, we presume that if it's not the most egregious kind of errors that the content hiding will be temporary until the problem is resolved. This is how people can learn the behavior that is expected of them in the community. Scott: I would like to see a lot more systems offering something like that. All too often, it is a post and punish model. You post it and either it goes away, and you're punished somehow, or you succeeded and it stays. This is what missing from a lot of these is that we're just not giving enough people chances and giving them the agency and the respect to actually change their behavior. Randy: This leads to the kind of thinking that was in the article when it said that, "Trolls are irredeemable." What do you think it's going to take if you never accepted their bad stuff from the beginning, and the community said if you want to post here, please don't be a dick, and there's a dick button, they will learn to conform, or they will leave. You don't have to kick them out because their content never appears. And by the way, it turns out to be the same pattern. So the pattern is, "Do I post things that are to my only benefit and to the harm of others, or do I contribute to this community?" The definitions of those vary from place to place, and it is the community who can help you enforce them as well as your moderators. So your moderators can focus on the real exceptions. Randy: Ban the banhammer. Scott: Ban the banhammer. Randy: Alright, we should say goodbye though. Scott: Oh yes. We should say goodbsye. Thank you very much for listening. We hope that this has been some help. So, don't reach for the banhammer. Randy: Yes, people are not nails. Catch you later. Randy: For links, transcripts, and more episodes, go to socialmediaclarity.net. Thanks for listening!

Kristen: Hello and welcome to Cerius Business Today. This is Kristen McAlister and I’m joined today with Interim HR Executive Scott Coolidge. Scott, thank you for joining us today. Scott: You bet, happy to be here. Kristen: Fantastic. Scott looking at from your perspective of what companies are most challenged with and the improvements that they can make, even if it’s just the little things, what are 3 pieces of advice you would give a CEO? Scott: Well you know I have to say this Kristen, I mean having them associated with, and this won’t be a surprise to any CEO, having been associated with the world of HR, big companies, small companies – it’s all around leadership. You know, who you select to put into leadership roles really at all levels of the organization. I don’t care if they’re supervisors, mid-level managers, directors, or executives. So often the default position is to take the person who’s your best technician, best technically who has grown up through the organization and, you know, selected them into these leadership roles. And often they’re simply not well-suited for management or leadership roles. That’s not to say they can’t be developed into that, but often times it’s a situation where they’re just not effective leaders and building out the selection process in order to identify and put people into leadership roles at all levels, I would say is the most critical thing that any CEO and management team could do. So that’s number 1, and I’ve seen that over and over and over again. Number 2 I would say that it’s around the, I’m going to call it the performance management framework right, and what I mean by that is really from two perspectives. What are you focused on in terms of overall business performance, what are the metrics? And how does that translate into the performance management process that you used for employees in order to get people to focus on the right things and have them working that optimal levels in order to achieve their personal objectives and those of the organization and building alignment between business objectives and people objectives. And to me that goes right back to the leadership issue because the most significant issue, I don’t care what kind of a performance management framework you have, if you don’t have managers who are capable of providing feedback on a regular basis. Look we all know business particularly in this environment changes almost every day and therefore the performance that you’re expecting from people at all levels is going to change constantly. You have to have people in place who are effective at providing feedback, both positive and negative, and getting people to change direction and encouraging them and having the right mechanisms in place to reward them. And that’s the third part of it. The third thing is taking a look at your reward and recognition programs. So many businesses, big and small, particularly small ones that are trying to grow to that next level. Taking a look at how you pay people: base compensation, bonus compensation, and equally important I would argue are recognition problems that you have in place because everyone knows that people want to be recognized and paid for doing a really solid job. And so having the programs and practices in place that allow your effective leaders to pay and recognize employees is absolutely critical. So those are probably the top 3. Although as you touched on just a minute ago, the other thing is communication and I can’t tell you how often I’ll walk into situations where I would just say employee communications are just not that effective. They aren’t clear, they aren’t consistent and they aren’t regular enough. So oftentimes I’ll find myself working with a CEO or a leadership team or a HR person to kind of clarify and effectively execute a solid communications stretch. Does that make sense? Kristen: Absolutely. I’m sure that anyone listening is nodding their head and saying yes I completely understand I’ve been through this. Well thank you so much Scott. I appreciate your time and sharing your time and expertise and experiences with us today, and joining us. For those listening, feel free to join us for our next episode at Cerius Business Today and have a great day.

Kristen: Hello and welcome to Cerius Business Today. This is Kristen McAlister and I’m joined today with Interim HR Executive Scott Coolidge. Scott, thank you for joining us today. Scott: You bet, happy to be here. Kristen: Fantastic, that’s a good one. You mention the word change a couple of times, especially that retention of employees. Now you recently did an assignment where the CEO was looking to shift the organization in order to remain competitive realizing they needed to get more products and services, but in order to deliver that to clients they needed to adjust the organizational structure of the team, and kind of needed some help with change management, and working through that and communicating it to the organization in order to enable that. Can you give us some highlights of what the situation was and how you were able to help impact some successful results? Scott: Sure, I’d be happy to Kristen. And this was my latest interim assignment, and this was one that I had some of the most fun with. Basically, this situation was a new CEO stepped in, had a situation where they had had a significant crisis in their business within an 18-month period for coming on board. And they had righted the ship for most part, but found themselves in a situation, she found herself in a situation where she knew that the competitive environment had changed dramatically and knew that she had to reposition the organization in such a way to allow them to be more competitive on a going-forward basis, and she needed to structure in such a way that allowed her more freedom to get out in the market, work with her customer base, build potential technology alliances, and so she needed to have a structure that was more efficient in order to allow her to do that. I helped her conduct an organizational… she brought in a consulting firm to do the organizational study, but my primary role was working with her from a change perspective to determine what needed to be done from a structural standpoint and then most importantly to help her figure out what needed to be done in terms of communications to the organization and communications to the executives that were involved in this change in order to retain them and produce this effective structure on a going-forward basis. So specifically I helped her finalize the organizational structure, it had a concerning impact on a number of the existing executives, so I worked through with her how the very specific conversations she needed to have with the impact of executives and helped her get through that in an effective way, so at the end of the day she didn’t lose a single executive, repositioned the business for success in the future, and helped her as well with a communications to all the employees in the organization so that they understood why she was doing what she was doing, what the impact was going to be on them as employees, and what the future would hold for the organization. And I’m very happy to say that through all of this, I’m going to keep my fingers crossed as is she, that so far, knock on wood, she hasn’t lost a single person in the organization and it looks like we positioned them well for the future. Kristen: That is tremendous. Especially in the current environment that we’ve had with recruiting and retention as you mention that’s a challenge for so many companies, and I think you hit on the sticking point is communication, and when any type of transition, any type of change going on in the company, communication is priority number one to make such a big impact. Well thank you so much Scott. I appreciate your time and sharing your time and expertise and experiences with us today, and joining us. For those listening, feel free to join us for our next episode at Cerius Business Today and have a great day.

Kristen: Hello and welcome to Cerius Business Today. This is Kristen McAlister and I’m joined today with Interim HR Executive Scott Coolidge. Scott, thank you for joining us today. Scott: You bet, happy to be here. Kristen: Fantastic. One of the questions we get most often from CEO’s and business owners is how is it that someone of this caliber is sitting around waiting to help me with my company. They don’t quite understand the makeup of interim executives and how they’re available and when they jump in and out of companies. If you don’t mind giving us a little bit of your background and how is it that you ended up becoming an interim executive and why? Scott: Oh great question Kristen. It’s pretty simple from my vantage point. I’ve had a 35-plus year career, almost exclusively in Human Resources. About half of that I was with large consulting firms, Towers Perrin and Hey Management Consultants, and the other half was in corporate roles in HR and various capacities. The latest of which was the head of Human Resources at Freddie Mac. And I got to a point in my career where I wanted to shift and change priorities in terms of life and career and so I left Freddie Mac and launched a career that basically allows me a lot more flexibility to manage my priorities, and what I look for and what I’ve found so exciting about interim opportunities is I look for interesting business situations, I look for client situations where they have significant human resources issues and where I can add some value, and so far I’ve found that these interim roles really fit that bill very nicely. Kristen: It’s a good thing that you shifted to that. I know you’ve helped a lot of companies. Looking at the type of companies that you step in and lend you years of experience to, human capital is often the most important part and most overwhelming part of the organization. What are some of the common situations that you get brought into, especially looking at a small to mid-size business? Scott: That’s another great question Kristen, and what I’ve seen so far is that typically even though my background has been with Fortune 500 types of companies, as I’ve stepped into these interim roles, it tends to be small to medium-sized businesses. Usually they’ll have a human resources person there, but that person tends to be more administrative than executional with respect to the programs that they already have in place. And typically what I have found is that the organization is in a situation where they’re trying to grow or have grown, and the number and complexity of human resources issues has grown dramatically. And what they’re looking for is somebody who’s been there and done that before, and then exposed to situations that their current staff just simply hasn’t been associated with. So they’re looking for an advisor to help them think about the situations they find themselves in, retention of staff, engagement of staff. They might have some pro-dramatic issues around leadership development or performance management or change management. And so they’re looking for somebody to tap who’s been there, done that and can give them some advice around what to do, when to do it, where to invest their time, and what the implications are of doing that to their business operations, and frankly to their bottom line. And that’s what’s been so interesting for me. Kristen: As a business owner, CEO it’s hard to know when you need to bring in that external help. Often you don’t do it until, not that it’s too late, but it’s past the point when you should have or when it would’ve been most helpful and productive. What are some of the symptoms I should be looking for as a business owner in my organization to raise my head and say “wait we really need some outside assistance here.” Scott: Well that is typically what I’ve found to be the situation. Quite honestly you’re exactly right. Hindsight being 20/20, I think a number of CEO’s that I’ve worked with or leadership team members wished they would have done it a bit earlier. And you asked about symptoms, typically it’s a spike in turnover; that it is certainly one element. The second element is that they’re just not getting the performance that they’re looking for. They’re not growing as fast, they recognize that part of the problem is leadership issue and they know that they need to upgrade their talent but they’re just not quite sure how to go about it and what to do in that regard. The other symptom that often presents itself is that they’re having trouble recruiting and retaining the talent that they need in order to get to the next level. Again, they’ll bring some people in, they think they’re moving in the right direction but then the new people that join turn over fairly quickly, and they’re trying to figure out why that’s the case and what they need to do to resolve that. The other thing that happens quite often is that they’re running into some financial difficulties. As a matter of fact, one recent situation that we were involved with simply was their revenue had become, had plateaued and their expenses were rising and they needed to figure out what to do. So in that particular situation we had to come in and take a look at their total award, expense, compensation, recognition programs, that kind of thing. Figure out what needed to be changed in order to help them control expense while at the same time of being able to retain and engage the people that they have on board. Kristen: Thank you so much Scott. I appreciate your time and sharing your expertise and experiences with us today and joining us. For those listening, feel free to join us in our next episode Cerius Business Today and have a great day.

Why Comments Suck - Episode 26 Scott and Randy tear into the history and problems of comments on "news" sites, and identify the most overlooked problem. They then talk about current and future solutions (well, other than just giving up an shutting down.) Show Notes Links Popular Science -"Why We're Shutting Off Our Comments" -Sept 23, 2013 Shadow of the future: "The shadow of the future promotes cooperation in a repeated prisoner's dilemma for children" Original paper: Bargaining, Enforcement, and International Cooperation by James D. Fearon How others are addressing comment quality Shutting down onsite comments: a comprehensive list of all news organisations How the Huffington Post handles 70+ million comments a year We discussed the history of HuffPo comments with Justin Isaf in Jan 2015 Tablet Magazine: A Jewish magazine is testing an unusual solution for toxic internet comments After deciding to charge for comments, Tablet's conversation moves to Facebook Improvements along the roads! Civil Comments: Reforming the Trollosphere: Creating Conversation in the Comments Section The Coral Project: "We need to change how people are submitting their content and we need to make sure that we're giving them good reasons to behave well." The Coral Project unveils its first product to make comments better New York Times: Quora: How does the NYT determine which articles have comments? Model & Enforce the context New York Times: A Community Manager Walks Into A Bar:My AMA with Bassey Etim, Community Desk Editor at The New York Times The Engaging News Project: Journalist Involvement in Comment Sections Comments Are Terrible (But They Don't Have To Be) - SXSW PanelPicker submission for The Coral Project and the Engaging News Project. Additional links Hey reporters: An alternative to #DontReadtheComments: Jump in Case Study: Yahoo! Answers Community Content Moderation from Building Web Repuation Systems The Washington Post is using Slack to create a reader community focused on the gender pay gap Transcript Scott: Hi listeners, in this episode we ask why do comments on sites suck so much, and what can we do about it? Randy: They're sucking because they lack context, and we'll tell you what that means. Scott: Now, this isn't a new problem, and many are trying to address it. We'll share their approaches ... Randy: ... And give our recommendations based on our personal experiences. Welcome to the Social Media Clarity podcast, 15 minutes of concentrated analysis and advice about social media and platform and product design. Scott: I'm Scott Moore. Randy: I'm Randy Farmer. Scott: We're discussing the problem with comment sections. You may have heard that a number of news sites have been shutting down comment sections in the last couple of years, or generally complaining about the poor quality of comments they receive on their articles, and we think that there's a real simple problem here, and it's the model in that people are presented with just a blank text box with no context about what to say or how to behave. Randy: Part of that is because we don't know who the audience is. It's not clear from a plain text box who you have in mind when you're writing a comment, and what you're actually writing about. Are you writing to the publisher of the article? The reader? The commenter? The author? It's not at all clear, and I don't think the publishers were even sure. I think they assumed that the post, the content it self, would be a sufficient context for commenting, if they thought about context at all. One way I like to put it is, there's no "to:", expressed or implied, when a visitor creates their own context. Is it to the author? The publisher? The topic? Or a reply to another commenter? There is one context that I like to refer to all the time, which is when you post a public content, it's actually to God, Google and everyone. Scott: This creates an attractive nuisance. The vicious circle goes like this. Publishers are not creating a clear context to their commenters, and without that clear context, people don't have enough context to care about each other, so they don't really focus on developing relationships. They tend to focus on being an audience to the rest of the world, and they have their own axes to grind or they ignore the content of the article, and post anyway, and these low-quality comments tend to wind up drawing more bad comments than good comments, and the circle starts all over again. Randy: In contrast, there are communities with blank text boxes that have strong context and therefore have less difficulty with comment quality, because they're constructed around either topical content, or group goals, and they tend to be smaller and more intimate. Scott: These tighter contexts provide what's known as "the shadow of the future," and that is, that's the probability of future interaction. If you expect to interact with other people in the future, you treat them differently. If you don't expect to interact with somebody in the future, then your cooperation is going to be lesser than. It's like comparing a small town diner where you expect to see the same people over and over, you're going to be nice to them, verses a bus station where everyone's passing through, and bus stations aren't really known for their friendliness. Randy: Now it's time to discuss how others are trying to address poor quality comments on their sites. Scott: For too long, folks have been treating the symptoms. There's a long list of sites that have closed their comments absolutely, completely, but there's a cost to that. You lose your SEO from comments. You lose potential ad revenue from people participating on the page where you're selling ads. Some sites exert editorial control over which content can have comments enabled, and for how long. For example, the Philadelphia Enquirer, the Guardian, Fox News, all pick and choose which pieces of content are going to allow comments at all. This can increase your editorial costs and you can also suffer from a dip in your SEO and ad revenue from people commenting. Randy: Some, like Ars Technica and Boing Boing have put comments behind a click. This is an editorial speed bump. It's complex and it's all about context, and bad comments can cost you significant revenue. When I worked at Yahoo, Yahoo Health had comments related to articles about drugs and treatments, and when the drug companies were advertising, they were paying the highest ad rates on the internet, and they didn't like the detracting and often medically dangerous comments that were showing up on the same page as the article about their treatment or drug. They moved the comments off of that page in order to recover that revenue. The critical context turns out to be the advertisers for many of these applications, not the users. Scott: Then we can't forget the ever popular increasing your moderation. Whether moderation happens before or after publication, these systems wind up being expensive, mostly because they don't scale well, and definitely don't respond quickly. Randy: Some are pushing moderation tasks to Facebook comments, and for me, this is completely baffling, because now you have confused the context one more time, because now, instead of just the other people reading and the other people commenting, you now have brought in the entire user's social graph. Anyway, who gets notified when you post on a site using remote Facebook comments? Who are you talking to? Are you writing for your Facebook friends or are you writing for the author of an article? Scott: We've come across a really novel approach. Make your commenters pay before they can view or comment. Tablet magazine is a magazine for a non-profit organization, and they actually charge for commenting. They have a daily rate of 2 dollars, or a monthly rate of 18 dollars, or a yearly rate of 180 dollars, and you might think, "Who would pay to comment?" Randy: Nobody. Scott: Well the answer is no one. They killed the comments on their site. All of their commenting happens on their Facebook page where they repost the articles anyway. According to them, this is exactly what they wanted. They are very happy with it exactly happening this way. If somebody wants to comment from the wild web, then pay for it, and they'll be happy to moderate your comment. That works out well for them, but it might not work out well for you if you're relying on things like advertising revenue and SEO. Randy: This has been a problem for quite a while. It's well known. The grousing about it is everywhere, and we now join that group, but there have been several efforts to standardize and platformize. One of them is Civil Comments. Civil comments is a platform launched by Aja Bogdanoff who is involved with Ted Talks Communities, and Krista Morgan. Aja told Tech Crunch in October, "We need to change how people are submitting their content. We need to make sure that we're giving them good reasons to behave well," so when you write your comment, in order to post it, you actually have to review 2 other comments on the site for quality and civility. This gives you a chance to edit your comment before submitting. Then comments may go live or be held for review based on whoever is using the platform. This approach is a definite improvement, and it starts to set the context, but it's only after the user has invested in writing a potentially context-less comment. We think this approach might be able to be improved by changing the order, getting people to read comments from others before composing a new one. Scott: Another tool for publishers to facilitate curation in moderation comes out of the Coral Project. They have one tool called Trust. It's actually part of 3 planned modules, Trust, Ask and Talk. The Trust module is largely so that journalists can find new sources, reveal potential troublemakers and identify useful contributions within all the contributions that are going on. It's not out yet. Some people are experimenting with it, and it still doesn't address what we're talking about, which is the whole idea of context. There's nothing to provide context. It's really looking at things after all of these context-less comments come out. Randy: So far it looks like it's very early and there might be a little bit of reinventing the wheel, but we'll see how it turns out, and I'm certain they'll uncover some useful lessons I hope they share with us all. Scott: The New York Times has really changed how they're operating with comments. They started by following the popular but misguided, generic goal of "building community", but that lacks context, and that's the whole problem we're talking about. Since then, they have transformed into a better "letters to the editor." As Bassey Etim, the New York Times community editor, says, "Our goal is to have every New York Times comment thread offer tangible, added value to each article for our readership." Randy: That's a goal. Scott: That's a goal, and it limits the scope. With that goal clearly stated internally and externally, that allows them to select which stories have comments and how long the comments are going to be open on a particular story, and when those comments come in, they're human reviewed. They prioritize what comments are reviewed based on whether it's on the home page, whether it's getting a lot of attention, and when they review their comments, they hold off on publishing every comment just because it passes reviews. They actually hold on to a couple of comments until there is a spectrum of positions that support or add to the article. Randy: This does a great job of modeling. Scott: Exactly. It's done by your paid staff and it teaches regulars what's going to wind up getting published, and then also they curate and they highlight. They do this either by having picks of particular comments that really add to the context of the rest of the article, or they do modeling by highlighting the New York Times Picks community by doing profiles of folks. Randy: I really like that they preserve the context, as I was talking about earlier. They put the comments behind a click, which is the same kind of speed bump as I described before, but it's displayed as a pullout sidebar that allows the article and comments to scroll independently, so it keeps them connected, but it doesn't detract from either thing. It's great. Scott: You're right, but ultimately with all of this, there's still just an empty text box at the top of the comments, which makes it way too easy to skip a lot of this really great context modeling that they're doing, so good effort, but we're still calling them out on the one piece that we're saying is, we're missing context. Randy: My advice to them would be instead of just putting the FAQ link there, if you've never posted before, actually making you read the shorthand version of their FAQ, which is pretty short. After the break, our recommendations. Randy: There are plenty of problems to go around and lots of people are trying different things, but we're going to tell you what we think. We think the most important thing is to decide the context. Ask yourself the questions that are important. Why do you want comments at all? What do you want from the commenters? This is a behavioral question. What benefits do the commenters get? How do we want them to behave? Gather those questions clearly in your minds, and then talk about how you might be gathering this information. Once you know these things, you want to communicate them clearly. You want to be transparent about your answers to those questions. If it's about ads, is that why you want comments? What are you going to do to trade off to get that revenue? You want to communicate everything about that. Don't just present a white box. It has no context. Make it really, really obvious by putting context everywhere. Make knowing the context a speed bump. Some examples include making context a click through, as we talked about a couple different ways already. Put the text box after or to the side of other comments, and we added that to the side of after we saw the New York Times. That model is pretty cool. Reward and require reading other comments. I worked on a project called Discourse.org, which is a message board system, and before you could contribute, you actually had to read through threads. Scott: Part of communicating your context clearly is making sure that you've got the right technical bits for communicating the context. One of the challenges I found with working with traditional UX and UI approaches is that they tend to focus on what happens with one user behind the keyboard and not what's happening with hundreds of thousands of users in a social context, all taking that same action, and this plays out in terms of whether you want to have a community talking to each other or whether you want to have an audience talking to the publisher. If you want a community, set the context. Put the reply box on the bottom. Put the replies in chronological order. If you're looking at having the audience speak to the publisher, having the text box on top or having comments in reverse chronological order lends itself to talking to the article as opposed to other people. Labels can help. Consider changing the word "comment" to something else. Discuss, reply, contribute, and consider changing the label of your "like" buttons to "respect." There's something that backs this up. The Engaging News Project did a little research on simply changing "like" buttons to the word "respect," and they found that respondents who saw the respect button clicked on more comments in the comment section, and from an angle of participation, respondents seeing the "respect" button clicked on more comments from other political perspectives in comparison to either using "like" or even "recommend." Randy: That sounds great. Scott: Once you've set and communicated the context, it's important to shape it and reinforce it. Be willing to decide if comments are even needed on individual stories, much like the New York Times does, and this is a decision that can be based on your staffing capability, if the author is willing to or even able to respond in the comment section, if the topic is polarizing or if the top has recently had comments enabled. Also, set expectations for how you would like people to behave. Bassey Etim at the New York Times recommends you consistently tell your readers that they're part of a quality club, and this is the kind of quality that we're looking for, and this goes right back to our questions, "what benefit do the commenters get?" And, "how do we want them to behave?" Randy: You also want to model commenting behavior. Calling back to the New York Times policy of holding comment publication until a balance is available is a way to teach people what gets published. Make sure your content authors and staff are participating to your best standards. Scott: Don't forget, we're talking about people here, so directly engage with your commenters. Work with the folks who are writing the content, creating the content, to engage in the comments on their posts. This increases the quality of user contributions, and again, there's a little bit of experimentation from the Engaging News Project that found that when a reporter interacted in a comment section, the chances of an uncivil comment declined by 15 percent, and the commenters were 15 percent more likely to provide evidence over opinion when the reporters participated. Make sure your moderation staff is there supporting authors, so they can focus on meaningful engagement with the people commenting. Randy: It's really popular to talk about recognition, reward and celebration, and in appropriate measure, these are good practices. Just don't substitute recognition and reward for diligent moderation. Here are some recommendations that don't require special technology, just people. Dedicate a portion of your moderation strategy to finding good content. Reward the kind of comment quality you want. Reply to the person directly, and thank them or congratulate them for a particular quality. Of course, highlight and promote the best contributions, and do a retrospective of model commenters. Sometimes the technology you have just won't cut it, and you need to consider an alternative approach. One approach I've used with several clients, and has been implemented in the Telegent platform is the ability for users to be the frontline in identifying the worst content, and allowing them to flag it and then automatically hiding it, perhaps for later review, but I must warn you, we're calling this out as an alternative approach because if you do it wrong you can actually make things worse. If you do it right, the response time between a bad post it disappearing can drop to seconds, fundamentally improving the apparent quality of your content, and discouraging bad contributions from vandals. Scott: Sometimes you have to go back to your very first question, and ask yourself why you want comments, and realize that free text comments are not the right choice for your community or for feedback, and if you really want a community, consider a purpose-built community platform such as Discourse.org or even Slack. Now, the Washington Post is trying out an experiment where they have a small Slack community of Washington Post readers, mainly women, who are focusing initially on issues of pay gap, but it's turning into other discussions, which are becoming rich sources for the Washington Post to generate more stories or greater insight on this particular topic, or consider personal stories from your audience or your community that can give insight into a topic without a lot of back and forth that can be the source of conflict, and also consider that text is not your only tool. Submissions of images or videos, particularly if they are coming from members who are close to a particular topic or close to a particular location, where they can supplement or add flavor to the original topic are also ripe sources for content. That can give a sense of community without resorting to a blank text box. Randy: It was a challenge putting together this episode because it's difficult that there are so many different variants of text boxes for user feedback out there. There are so many techniques that people are using in an attempt to fashion quality out of that content. For example, we didn't talk much about moderation techniques here today. That's what people talk about a lot and we hope to have an episode about that in the very near future. If you have ideas for specific things we should discuss in this area, please give us feedback. You can reach us on Facebook at Social Media Clarity and on Twitter as @SMClarity. Scott: Thank you so much for listening. Randy: Yeah, see you next time. For links, transcripts and more episodes, go to SocialMediaClarity.net. Thanks for listening.

Today on The Basement: Vic and Scott weigh in with their supplementary review of Pacific Rim. In short: Vic liked it, with some reservations; Scott didn’t like it at all. Scott: You’re so stupid sometimes. Also: the horrid Grown Ups 2 gets picked apart; Scott tells the story of how he miraculously hooked up his … Continue reading "Episode 53, Clyde the Radioactive Cat and Pacific Rim"

In this episode of Bloody Angola: A Podcast by Woody Overton and Jim Chapman we bring you an amazing interview by our friends at The P2P Podcast (Penitentiaries to Penthouses)At 16, Kiana was convicted & sentenced to 2 life sentences without parole. While physically he was incarcerated, mentally he was FREE. Resilience is his name and after 17 years of living in the can God made a way for him to be in physical freedom.#formerlyincarcerated #prisonstories #redemption #secondchances #bloodyangolapodcast #woodyoverton #jimchapman #truecrime #realliferealcrimeBREAKING THE CHAINS  - FULL TRANSCRIPT - BLOODY ANGOLA PODCASTJim: Hey, everyone, and welcome to Bloody Angola. A podcast 142 years in the making. The Complete Story of America's Bloodiest Prison. And I am Jim Chapman. Woody Everton cannot join us today. He is on assignment. But we're bringing you something different today. We did a two-part series, if you haven't checked it out yet, it's called Second Chances. It features a former inmate at Louisiana State Penitentiary at Angola. He was actually the first juvenile released when the Supreme Court passed a law making it possible for juveniles who were sentenced to life in prison without parole to get a parole hearing after 25 years. If you haven't seen that episode yet, go check it out.This week, we have a very special episode. The guy we brought you the story of and who actually joined us for the two episodes of Second Chances, we met through our friends at Penitentiaries 2 Penthouses. It's a podcast known as P2P, and they interview formerly incarcerated people that are doing well as they acclimate back into society. When we did the Second Chances episodes, they were a big part of that, certainly a big part of making the introduction to the gentleman that came on the show. So, thank you so much to P2P.And they have an amazing podcast. So, we have decided that we're going to bring y'all one of their episodes and we're going to share it on our feed. We thought y'all would really enjoy it. We have some really, really big stuff about to pop off for Bloody Angola. I know that y'all are going to be real excited as we go through that process, but I think y'all will love this episode. It is with a gentleman by the name of Kiana Calloway who was in Angola for a very long time and has quite a story that you need to hear or that you will enjoy hearing. Without further ado, here's the P2P Podcast in their interview with Kiana Calloway. [P2P theme]Scott: Welcome, everybody. This is Scott with Penitentiaries 2 Penthouse Podcast. Shane: Yes, sir.Scott: I'm your host. To the left of me, we got Mr. Beatty.Beatty: Your best friend in real estate. Scott: To the right of me, we've got our guest, Mr. Kiana Calloway. Kiana: Swag out. What's happening? Scott: Special gentleman he is. And then, we got my partner over here to the left, Mr. Shane Johnson. Beatty: Big Shane.Shane: Yes, sir. 24 years successful now. Scott: There you go. We look forward to digging into today's message. Kiana, man has a powerful story. How I know Kiana is we work on a project together through the Justice and Accountability Center of Louisiana. Basically, that's nonprofit organization full of attorneys and policy people who march down to the state capitol every year.Kiana: Shoutout, JAC.Scott: JAC. And they do legislative work, so they propose bills, work with lobbyists, senators, representatives to pass criminal legal reform bills. The specific focus though is usually expungement legislation. For those of you who don't know what expungement legislation is, expungements are the things that guys like myself, Kiana, Mr. Shane over there need once we come home for opportunities. Whether it's employment, housing, life insurance, you name it, there's hundreds of things that we get denied for on a regular basis based on the fact that we made some mistakes in our lives and we've paid our time, we've paid our debt, and we're trying to get past that. So, the work that we're doing revolves around expungements. A, changing expungement law, but B, getting the knowledge and information out there because the average Joe that comes home from prison-Kiana: Don't even know about it.Scott: -don't know about expungements, don't know how to go about getting expungements. Furthermore--Shane: I am one.Scott: Yeah, exactly. And they're expensive as hell. You could easily rack up if you have multiple felonies, several thousand dollars just in paying the state, the district attorneys, and the clerks of court's office, not even including legal counsel. That's the work that the Justice and Accountability Center does. Me and Kiana are working on a project to get the expungement app through Justice and Accountability Center, the information there out. So, we're going to be traveling, presenting workshops, getting the information out there so that people can access expungements equitably.Kiana: Plug in, man, we're going to be in your areas very, very soon. Just being able to alleviate one of the collateral consequences that come after incarceration, I think that we're doing our part. And we'll be doing ourself a disservice, God, if we're not traveling, educating people about the work that we're putting in the state capitol. Keeping them informed that there's issues that you can get plugged into, but you just need to reach out. We can't do this in our silos. It's an honor to have run into a like-minded brother that's putting in work outside the bars because you are what you do, even when the camera is not on. [chuckles]Scott: Yeah, for sure. It's easy to look good on camera. It's harder to make it happen on the outside. But that's what I like to do. I'm just passionate about-- and just like you, passionate about making sure that people have opportunities, man, because I was given opportunities and I've had a lot of challenges, man, and I just want to see people be able to breeze through that process instead of getting caught in the hiccups.I do want to highlight a very successful human being today. As I said, I had the fortunate privilege of watching Kiana's documentary that's coming out real soon on a very, very national level. I told him today, and it's hard to get me to break down. And I told him, man-- [Shane laughs] Man, I watched it, dude, and they had some parts in it, I was just like [inhales deeply] and it'll really hit you. He's had a very, very challenged life, a lot of injustices, and I'm going to let him explain that. A lot of people see the part of the justice system that WAFB, whatever your local news channel post out there about people who commit crimes and their wrongs or whatever, but they don't talk about all those mugshots that they post where guys really didn't do what they were being accused of.I'm going to let Kiana take it from here, but if you don't mind, could you just kind of share a little bit about your upbringing and then what caused you or what led to the prison? And then we'll just kind of take it from thereKiana: Well, actually, the system led me to prison. Scott: Right. Kiana: We have to understand that the system was built to do exactly what it's doing. People say the system messed up. No, it's not messed up. It's doing exactly what it was scripted to do. We must always bring that energy back into the space. Just so happened that I have been resilient enough to really surpass the test that the system has caused upon my life. I've seen individuals in the same space, same situation, same cell, and six months later, they hung themselves because they can't handle the stresses or the traumatic expressions about being, one, either fomerly accused and convicted of a crime, or, two, just trying to figure out, like, "Man, is this my life? Is this what I'm supposed to be?" Not to get too deep into that, because my documentary, it basically shows resiliency. It shows the true test of time. Like, you can go through these hard spaces, but you have to be prepared to bounce back because everybody bounces back. Shane: Amen. Scott: What you're referring to is the school-to-prison pipeline? Kiana: Yes. Scott: Okay. Got you. Kiana: Everybody bounces back. Beatty: Explain the school-to-prison pipeline. Kiana: School-to-prison pipeline. Okay, I'm going to give it to you in layman terms. Beatty: Let's go. I am layman.[laughter] Scott: That sounds like a good movie title. [crosstalk] Beatty: I am he.Kiana: Okay, definitely. So, school-of-prison pipelines. I went to prison at 16 years old. If I was tested in the second or third grade and I read below a certain level, they built another cell for me. Just the way that it planned out, I ended up in that cell, that school-to-prison pipeline. If we understand the way that our America is functioning, three main attributes of human survival. Education, travel, and should I say-- I'll throw manufacturing and the building. Planes, the way planes first started, it crunk up, but now the evolution of planes is that it just takes off. They could probably put it on autopilot, ain't got nothing but to do the landing. And it's crazy, man. The car, it crunk up. Now, you pushed on. Why? Education is still the same. You sit in a single-file line. They teach you ABC, one, two, three and it never gives the whole individuality of the person. So, when we speak about school-to-prison pipeline, I walked through a metal detector when I was going to elementary school. If this is an educational institution, they should be focused on my education and not my protection or not my apprehension in so many different ways. We learn how to stand in a single-file line, walking to child hall, cafeteria. What did you do? You stood in a single-file line, and you walked to the child hall. I understand the level of control, but that's how institutionalized that we can be. People never have been to prison and are more institutionalized than someone that spent 50 years in the junk. Beatty: Concrete walls, fluorescent lighting. Kiana: Hey.Scott: Colors.Beatty: White, blue. Scott: Light blue. I guess to give that short synopsis of school-to-prison pipeline, at a young age, you experienced that-- we all do-- Kiana: It's a program. Scott: And then, which eventually led to? Kiana: Even since those days of single-file lines, straight line education, as today, we pump 72% of our state's budget into incarcerating someone instead of the education precinct. Only 13% or sometimes 7% of the budget goes to the adequate education of our youth. That shows the level of, should I say, support--Beatty: Focus.Kiana: Dependence, codependence, any word that we want to put into that space, because we must understand that it's systems that we're dealing with. These systems that we're dealing with has to be dismantled and it has to be dismantled from the inside. Scott just said that we have the privilege of working on the new task force, the Safe and Alternative Task Force, which is a governmental task force that was structured through last year's legislation, which gives us the opportunity to properly plan the effects of not only expungements, but the use of solitary confinement inside of our jails and prisons in the state of Louisiana.And sitting at these tables with the state attorney, with the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Department of Corrections, I really start to understand that we are the experts in this field. Like, people are holding these positions and really don't know.Unison: Mm-hmm. Kiana: They really don't know the outlook of putting a face to incarceration. That's what we need to try to understand. Who are we incarcerating? How can we lead the nation in crime, but we have--Shane: The highest incarceration rate.Kiana: Yeah. Let me kind of bring this back. How can we be less in the nation in education, but highest in the nation in crime and incarceration? Scott: Going back to you being sentenced at a young age or going to jail or prison at a young age, can you share with us what happened and then jump into your experience? Kiana: I'm going to XYZ it because a lot of it is in the film.Scott: Yeah, don't spoil it.Kiana: Yeah, I don't want to do a spoiler alert, but, man, I look at my life as not a needle in the haystack. Yes, I was falsely apprehended, falsely accused, falsely convicted, sentenced to two lifes without the possibility of probation, parole, or suspension of sentence. Was said in the trial for my life to be deliberated on, like, "You either going to get life in prison, or we're going to send you to death row." Shane: Wow. Kiana: This is at the age of 16, just making 17.Scott: Swallow all that at the age of 16?Kiana: I had to swallow all of that, and now I have the opportunity to regurgitate that because now my pain is turning into passion. It's turning into my why. That's why I love waking up every morning. That's why I love opening my refrigerator. That's why I love playing with my daughter. Shoutout to my baby mama. Shoutout to my fiancé. I definitely got to say, what's happening T? I love you. A lot of these things that's taking place right now, I wouldn't do it without you on my side. Shane: Amen. Kiana: Yeah, definitely throw that in the space. The evolution of life sometimes, like even riding up here today, I've never been to Denham Springs a day in my life, but it felt like an epiphany. Getting off of this bridge, making this exit, I'm like, "Dang, they got a Cane's right here." [laughter] Kiana: I was tasting Cane's. It's basically trying to figure out, I am walking in the steps of my higher power, my divine energy. When I was laying in the cell, and I was like, "God, man, something got to happen." I woke up the next day, and I woke up the next day, and I woke up the next day. So, I'm looking at that right now, if we can kind of just think back to our prophetic literature that's in the books, and I'll say the Bible, Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, that's the acronym that I placed on it. Inside of this book, they have stories of great men. I placed myself inside of these great men while I was in that cell looking at these cinderblock walls, I had a 55-inch TV, so I read the story of Paul. Paul was a gangster. Paul wrote probably 85% of the book. Scott: And he marked a whole lot of people. Kiana: Man, he was a gangster. Paul used to rob, Paul used to steal, Paul used to kill, Paul was taking lives. That's for me. Let me get that move around. [laughter] Shane: He was more definitely--[crosstalk] Kiana: Move around, let me get that. Let me get that. Paul was incarcerated over 75% of his existence.Shane: Yes. Scott: And wrote a good portion-- Shane: And he was a great man.Kiana: Paul was incarcerated 75% of his existence.Shane: He was a great man.Kiana: He wrote books that stand the test of time till today. Prophetic hymns, metaphorical narrative that any culture can take and put it into their own existence. Every line, every piece, every scripture, every sentence, every dot, every comma means something. That's what we need to pay attention to in life. Every comma means something. If I had to trade my chicken plate so I could get on the phone, see people don't understand that type of narrative though. People don't understand that type of narrative. You see what I'm saying? Beatty: Tell everybody-Scott: Tell the laymen.Beatty: -what that means. Kiana: I spent 18 months in one of the most dehumanizing places that ever could have been created for a human being, and that was Camp J. Shane: Angola, Louisiana. Kiana: Angola, Louisiana. The Farm. Yes. So cooler one, cell 11. They got cell 10. Cell 11 was the last cell. They had a guy named Money that slept on side of me for 10 months. Every morning, he woke up singing, [in a singing tone] "It's been a long, a long time coming, but I know a change gon' come." Scott: Is that Money from RCC? Kiana: No, not that Money. This is the old Money--Scott: [crosstalk] Kiana: Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Money name was Alfred Baker. When I went to Camp J, Money had all been in Camp J for like 14 years at this time. Shane: Wow. Kiana: He got caught up-- [crosstalk] in that same cell. In that same sale. That's why I fight for solitary confinement today. Scott: Talk a little but about that, because I did hear you'd mentioned about solitary confinement kind of messed you up, so make sure touch on that. But solitary confinement, man, you'll go crazy sitting in--[crosstalk] Kiana: I've seen it. Scott: How did it affect you? Shane: Hold on. Chicken for the phone.Scott: Oh, yeah. Kiana: Okay. Shane: Keep us on point right there.Beatty: No. Are we talking trades? What are we doing?Kiana: So here we go, we're talking trades. So, I was in Camp J. The man come down, shift change, 6:00 and 6:00. We know shift change. 06:00, man come down. "Who wants to use the phone?" Friday, what's on Friday? In Unison: Chicken. Kiana: Exactly. Who wants to use the phone? Everybody hands coming out the bar. "Okay. Let me get them plates. How many people are not getting the chicken plate?"Beatty: [laughs] Kiana: Listen, I didn't talk to my-- Beatty: This is the guard?Kiana: This is the guard.Scott: He's trying to eat. Kiana: He's getting chicken so he could swing it on the other side of the town. Shane: You have to make an executive decision. Kiana: They got Joe's around the corner. So, you know it's a whole situation here. You only get one phone call every 30 days in Camp J at this time. Scott: Really? Kiana: I haven't talked to mom then. This was in '98. My mom got diagnosed with breast cancer. You've seen the space, my mom got diagnosed with breast cancer. I didn't know for like two and a half years that she was even-- She comes to see me one time, and her head was bald. I didn't know what was going on. Scott: Wow. She didn't tell you then?Kiana: She still didn't tell me. She just broke down crying. I'm like, "Baby, don't worry about it. We got this. I'm going to be able to give you your roses while you're still here." Shoutout, mom, she's still home. Every day, yes, I give her roses while she's still here. Scott: [crosstalk] -strong woman.Shane: Big love. Kiana: As you can see, my life revolved around the strength of this queen, and it shows. I'm going to try to amplify that to the best of my ability. Shoutout, mom, I love you. Anyway, I haven't talked to my mom in like three months at this time. What's going on? Every time I call, now I know that she was going through chemo, so she didn't even want to get on the phone weary. So, I'm talking to my sister, I'm talking to my brother, talking to my nephews. I'm talking to everybody but mom. I know, I know something ain't right. Something ain't right. She never did this. I was blessed my entire 17 years. Well, I spent 17 years in prison as a result of that conviction and still have 17 years on parole. I'm currently on parole.Scott: Unjustly.Kiana: Unjust. And currently on parole. Have 6 years remaining, been home 11 years. That was my main source of everything. Every month, Molly Diggs sent $100 to my account. Every month for 17 years. Man, if that's not a blessing, you know what I'm saying? Within itself because I used to take my $100 and split it down the middle so I could feed-- you were on the dome, you know what's happening.Shane: Yeah. Kiana: You know how'd that go. Shane: Believe me, I do.Kiana: This work that I'm doing out here, this is work that was prophetically distributing and manifesting itself in a can. I love brothers, I love you. It's how we do this. It's work that we got to do. But I'd be damned if I trade my chicken plate again though.Shane: That's right. [laughter] Kiana: I'd be damned if I traded that chicken plate again. Scott: Since we're talking about solitary, man, if you don't mind just kind of sharing a little bit about, A, how it affected you, how long you stayed in solitary, and then kind of tell the folks out there what solitary does to the mind. Because I have my own personal experience, I spent 11 months in solitary myself, sitting in cells. But I want to hear your take on it, and then I'll kind of chime in with mine.Kiana: Okay, so you want my professional take, or you want my personal experience? Scott: Personal experience.Shane: Personal. And keep it for the who? Layman?Beatty: Yeah, laymen, please. Name of the next movie, Only for the Layman. Kiana: When we're speaking about solitary confinement, let me put a definition to that first. Solitary confinement is a person placed in the one- or two-man cell for 23 hours or more without the ability of education, personal contact, air, exercise, everything that you are being deprived of. I'll just say deprived of all liberty and growth with no access to human contact. Basically, the first time that you are apprehended, when you get into a police car and they put the handcuffs on you and you go to a holding tank, let's call that solitary confinement. Some people may be placed in the cell with 14 people. Some people may be placed in the cell with two. Some people may be placed in the cell with one. Okay, so the effects of solitary confinement, what we're triggering here in Louisiana is the term "post-incarceration syndrome", and that is when a person who have spent a long time inside of any incarcerated state has mental transformations that may impede the normal ways of thinking.Now, that's where the tunnel comes in. It could be a mental disorder. It could be some similar to posttraumatic stress disorder. You could deal with insomnia, you could deal with claustrophobia, you could deal with depression, you can deal with-Scott: Anxiety. Kiana: -anxiety. There's so many different-- [crosstalk] yes. There's so many ways that you can kind of figure it out. So, when I first came home, I knew what I experienced personally. When I go to the bathroom, I take one leg on my [crosstalk] to take me a crap. Why do I do that? Because when I was in prison, I knew I had to be on guard at all times. Shane: All the time, every day. Scott: You can't stand up and fight with your pants down.Shane: No. Scott: [crosstalk] -free access to move around.Kiana: The thing about it is, when I came home, I still was continuing those traits until I realized, "Man, I could take my pants off. I could just slide them down right here. Nobody's going to come in the door and do me nothing." When I sit down to eat, my arm's on the table, and I'm doing what I'm doing because I know I got to be finished before this last dude is sitting down. That's a trigger for us. We all eat fast. Shane: I suffer from it right now.Scott: I still do. I've been home nine years, and I eat faster than most people. I'm in and out like that. Shane: [laughs] Kiana: So, I kind of compiled a lot of triggers that I identified as being posttraumatic effects of incarceration. Scott: From your stints in the cell blocks--[crosstalk] Kiana: Yes. Smell, sounds, certain things that I touch, certain things that touch me. Certain people that get around. I can't let nobody sit behind me while I'm in the car, if I'm in a movie theater. I can't go to a club. Like, a lot of those things were affecting me. During COVID-- this is when my father came into place. During COVID, I said, "You know what? The only way I'm going to understand my problem--" because I know it's a problem, but when I look around, I'm like, "Well, shit. What is normal? I'm not normal, but I see this dude here. He never been nowhere, but he more fucked up than me. He got issues. He got problems. You've been on here forever, and you calling me every day asking me for $20, $15, your daughter need shoes." Scott: Not Shane. Kiana: No. I'm just saying in general.Scott: I just want to clarify in case--[crosstalk] [laughter] Scott: Shane is a mooch. [laughs] Damn.Kiana: Just kind of figure it out, I traveled around Louisiana, I talked to over 275 individuals, and we talked about anything from-- and all of them were formerly incarcerated people.Scott: That's when 40--Kiana: That's when 40 for 40 Worldwide came into, during COVID.Shane: That's dope. Kiana: I knocked on doors. I took the camera to meet them where they were. We're going to talk about where you came from to become who you are today. Every individual that I talked to, they talk about every situation that I've experienced, situations that I may stumble across in the future. They gave me possible solutions that I could pull logic from. I'm like, "Damn, what can I do with this project? Okay, we're going to name it 40 for 40 Worldwide because I'm going to pull 40 of the most influential pieces out of this space, and I'm going to build a campaign in Louisiana that will allow people to come home and holistically heal." Whether it be through arts, whether it be through song, whether it be through poetry, whether it be through broadcast, whether it be through construction, whether it be through welding, whether it be through any mechanism, I feel we can do that as a channel. We can do that as a body of individuals. 40 for 40 Worldwide was to amplify the voices of formerly incarcerated people that have been through horrendous events in their life while serving time, ultimately gaining momentum to build 40 other individuals in 40 other states to implement some type of federal legislation that will add people returning home from incarceration into a protected class. Because there are over 40,000 collateral consequences that stop you from getting a job, from going to school, from getting insurance, from going to real estate school. There's so much that hinders you. It seems like people returning home from incarceration is the only social group that America still has permission to openly hate. Scott: I got denied for life insurance. Can't even get life insurance. Kiana: You see what I'm saying?Beatty: Yeah.Kiana: So, how can we humanize this space? In Louisiana, one out of every three individuals have been impacted by incarceration.Shane: Yes. Kiana: And we right here, three out of five, I don't know if the cameraman has a buddy or sister or brother or even if he'd been to prison. Cameraman: I'm just lucky I ain't been. [crosstalk] [laughter] Scott: Going back to the solitary thing, how long would you say in your 17 years that you spent just in solitary? Not in dormitories, but solitary. Kiana: Solitary confinement, out of 17 years, I've spent probably eight and a half. Close to nine. Scott: In solitary? Years? Kiana: Yes. Scott: Damn.Kiana: In Camp J, I spent close to 19 months. That was just from 1998 to 2000. When I first made it to Angola, me being a juvenile, they put me in the cell, they let me out to go into the dog pen for a while, and that was basically for a year. After that, minor offenses, because now I'm a boy transforming into a man in the man institution.Scott: You've got prove something.Kiana: It's not really proving it. It's just making sure that they don't prove me. I'm not here to prove who I am. Beatty: Preventive maintenance.Kiana: Yes. That's the type of person that I have been, is that I'm not here to prove that I'm a man. I'm here to prove that you're not going to fuck with me.Beatty: Yeah. Kiana: You know why? Because much respect is given, much respect is required. That's how I walk in life. I can have a relationship with Shane, and I can have a relationship with Scott. At the same time, my relationship with Shane and Scott is going to be identical because y'all deal with me identical. You feel what I'm saying? I'm not going to differentiate anything dealing with any situation in life. When I first went to Angola, my first time in the field, they called me Looney Tune. My number was 372220, I'll never forget it. I was at the end of the line. We in a line of 375 people do stuff with tools on their hand, and every time that man look around, they was [mimicking a shotgun] because I'm in the back trying to keep up. "Man, that dude crazy. Come here, Looney Tune. They're going to shoot you." Scott: Oh, the guards [crosstalk] shotguns--[crosstalk] Kiana: Yeah, because I can't keep up with the hose. I got locked up, every day is my first out in the field, I can't keep up with the hose. Shane: What did you say, Deuce Deuce? Kiana: That mean they lined up in tools. Beatty: Okay. I knew that. Kiana: You're not that lame. Scott: For the viewers.Kiana: For the viewers.Scott: For the viewers out there that don't know, when you go to Louisiana Department of Corrections State Penitentiary, you go onto the field when you get there.Kiana: You're picking cotton, man. Scott: Actually, we got Fat on here the other day, and he told his story about how they tried to make him go out there and pick cotton. Kiana: You're picking cotton, man, or you're going to ride like Fat.[laughter] Kiana: I'm telling you.Shane: As a [crosstalk] you're the number one.Cameraman: Camp J was so brutal.Kiana: That they shut it down. Cameraman: Yes. They closed--[crosstalk] Kiana: I had a hand in that.Scott: Talk about it. Kiana: I had a hand in that, man. So, it was a campaign. That was in 2013. Beatty: We're talking about the shutting down of Camp J if you didn't hear.Scott: Camp J is solitary confinement at Angola.Shane: It started in 2008. Kiana: Yeah. The campaign started in '08 but it actually got shut down in '13. Basically, man, just being able to lay in those cells and be like, "Man, this shit ain't right. I wish I had some people standing out fighting and fussing for me." When I came home, my first objective is, how can I get engaged? How can I get involved? What can I do? Man, I really would like to salute again. It's going to be a shoutout hour. You heard me shout out VOTE, Norris Henderson. Matter of fact, Norris's brother just got killed, man. So, we're going to lift him up, little daddy, man. Salute the little daddy. We lost a soldier. We lost a soldier, man. Definitely, I would like to give VOTE a shoutout in the space. They've been holding it down.Scott: Long time doing fighting work that most people, A, don't want to do, but, B, they can't do. Those guys, all formerly incarcerated, are leading the pack on criminal legal reform work in Louisiana. They got their hands in every-- dang, every piece of legislation that goes in front of state capitol for--[crosstalk] Shane: They're built to do that. Kiana: Definitely. Scott: They just opened up the little building too, right? Kiana: Yeah, definitely this year. I was a volunteer for VOTE when I first got into the game. Like in 2012, 2013, we did a lot of work around restoring the voting rights for formerly incarcerated people in Louisiana. Act 636.Scott: Then, they had a campaign to end solitary confinement in Camp J. Kiana: Well, no, this was kind of before. The Camp J space, I was on some freelance stuff. I partnered with The Village Keepers. That was the name of Jefferson Parish. I partnered with The Village Keepers, and they were doing some work around solitary confinement in Jefferson Parish. The work that I did toward Camp J was basically I told my story twice, how it was inhumane and how I laid in the cells and really like phantom and wondered if people were really out there putting in work. I didn't have the opportunity to speak at the capitol, but I knocked on some doors and passed out some flyers, got people involved, did a lot of work toward that end, but that was basically a backend thing because DOC was ready to kind of make amends with that space. Man, it was a dungeon.Shane: [crosstalk] -reparation for people. Kiana: Yeah, it was hell. What they did in '08 was they shut down the Boot tiers in 2008, they shut down the Shark tiers. The Shark tiers, they were like cells inside of a cell. You've got the cells and then you had had the big old Boot that slammed-- boom, slamming the front with the little trace slot right there. That's all you had to really move around. In 80--Scott: Wait, wait. Shane: In other states.Kiana: Oh, yeah, definitely. Scott: I'm trying to picture my own experience in solitary. When I've been on it, it's a cell block-- Is it something different than that? I haven't been on Camp J--[crosstalk]Kiana: This is the view. A lot of people may not picture this, but you can get it. If you're walking down the Beavers working cell block, imagine you take half of the hall out, where the cell doors are originally there, you take half of that tier out and you bring that out further with concrete blocks. Like a concrete steel block will come all the way out. On that concrete block, you have a steel door that slams, boom, with the [mimics locking]. You come through that door, and then you walk down that narrow hall, maybe halfway from here to like that door, and then the cells open and then you go on the cells. So, they lock the cells. Scott: So, they don't rack them back--[crosstalk] Kiana: No, they don't rack them back until they come to the cell and then handcuff and shackle you. Then, they come step out of that boot door and rack them back close, now you just in the space and then they open up the big door. Shane: In other states, states like Illinois and Chicago, Indiana, they call them two-door cells, because you have your first door, open that up. When they walk in, it's like maybe 6ft of space, officer walks to that cell, handcuff you, shackle you and everything and then leaves you out. Scott: Mind you, if something were to happen in your cell, whether it's medical or if you're sharing, I don't know how Camp J is, do they share [crosstalk] space?Kiana: That's one-man cell. Scott: If something was going down in the cell and not only are you behind bars, but you're also behind this barricaded force, you have no way of getting in touch with the guards to come, "Hey, I'm having a heart attack."Kiana: Can't even hear you. Scott: They can't hear you. So, you're just left to die. A lot of people that are on Camp J are awaiting trials. Especially if they're high-profile cases and different things like that, they might not necessarily be guilty of the crime, but they're sitting back there and they can possibly die because, A, all types of things happen medically when they become incarcerated.Kiana: Oh, man. They were coming through the walls. Shane: Breaking cinderblocks. Kiana: Coming through the walls. Busting through the walls.Scott: Who was? Kiana: The inmates. They bust through, they could bust through the walls. Scott: They come get you? Kiana: Yes. Scott: Oh, wow. Kiana: If they want you, they bust, they coming through the walls. I'm talking about there's so many times that they had to replaster the cinderblocks. Scott: So, they just going to get moles coming through?Kiana: Moles? Shane: No.Scott: How they getting through--[crosstalk] Kiana: You can use--[crosstalk] Shane: [crosstalk] Scott: Oh, you're talking about the guy on the side--[crosstalk] Kiana: In 1998, they took the block-- you know in the cellblock, they have the flap where you put your stuff in there? You take that up out of there, and you can go through the wall. Scott: No shit. Kiana: Yeah, you can go through the wall. Scott: Dudes are getting jugged up.Kiana: Going through the wall. Shane: Getting raped.Kiana: Listen to me, going through the wall.Scott: That's wild, man. Kiana: Listen, man, that is a world inside of a world, man. So, being mindful enough, and that's what I mean by, you guys are survivors. I didn't acknowledge my self-worth. I didn't acknowledge my value. But I think my job now is to pump that into you guys, because y'all are survivors, and y'all are experts in the way that this criminal justice world is about to be reformed. We cannot continue to allow people to plan meals for tables that they never slid a seat under. How can you give me cheese and I'm lactose intolerant? I don't eat cheese and ice cream. I can't deal with that. But you're still putting that on my table, and you wonder why I got diarrhea. Shane: Because you just don't know.[laughter] Kiana: You wonder why I got diarrhea. Scott: That's a nice analogy. Kiana: You wonder why my communities are underresourced. I got to go find it. I can't buy toilet paper, so I'm going to come shit on your lawn. [laughter] Kiana: I'm just trying to figure like that, because that's what we got to understand, man. Life is about who we are. We are life. We are the movers and shakers. We create every sphere, every business. Like the United States of America is a 501(c)(3) organization. It is a nonprofit. We bought into that. When we were born, our family signed our birth certificates and Social Security cards and put us into this entity. We have to understand, we need to pull control of that entity. Use our democracy, get out there and vote and put people in positions who have your best interests at heart.Don't just come to my house [chuckles] and shoot me some sugar. And now I'm walking, I've got a banana in my tailpipe. I'm blowing up every time I go somewhere. It's crazy. And that's what we're allowing, that's what we have been allowing. And I hope that people understand that this work I do, I can't put a tag on it, bro. I do everything. I do reform. I do litigation. I do policy. I do programs. I do training. I hold peer support groups, like the same groups that we held inside with Project Detour. Beatty: Shoutout.Kiana: Shoutout Project Detour. That was started in RCC. Scott: Turn around, show the back. Can you turn around?Kiana: I could, but we're going to wait [crosstalk] shot at the end.Beatty: We'll put that later. Scott: Like a whole baseball player. Kiana: Definitely, man.Scott: He did homerun.Kiana: But, yeah, this was an organization that we started in Rayburn, man, in RCC. Scott: Okay. Kiana: We started this in RCC, and we've seen the impact on the individuals on the tier with it.Scott: RCC is Rayburn Correctional Center in Angie, Louisiana. It's a state penitentiary. Kiana: Yes. We've seen the impact on individuals on the compound, people that didn't give a rattin' ass about nothing. Scott: Give us an example of one of the guys.Kiana: Reggie. Scott: Quetan?Kiana: Yes. Reggie was in the block. As a matter of fact, Reggie is in Austin right now.Scott: Okay. I knew he moved out there.Kiana: Yeah, he's staying in Austin. I've seen him when I was on a fellowship with REDF. Shoutout, REDF, that's my accelerator teaching me how to turn my business into a business. Yeah, I needed that. Just floating on the wings, man. I want to say, yeah, man. Ooh. I did like 80 hours of training in like four days. But anyway--Scott: Who is this?Kiana: REDF Accelerator. Scott: Is that a program or a guy? Kiana: That's a program. My fellowship. I'm part of a fellowship. REDF Accelerator. Scott: Okay, cool. Kiana: So, yeah, definitely. Partnering with 18 other entrepreneurs across the state. They chose us out of like-- 500 employment social enterprises is what we're calling our business at this point. Just trying to figure out how can we figure out those key performance indicators, man, and make sure that double line bottom is on point. Scott: You said you ran into Reggie.Kiana: Yeah, I ran into Reggie, man. And Reggie now is a photographer. He's doing some great work. Shane: Wow.Kiana: He's doing some great work, man. Reg is really holding it down. Scott: You ran into Reg at Rayburn.Kiana: Reg was an asshole. Scott: Yeah. Kiana: You know, Reg stayed in and out the blocks. Reg will fight. Reg will curse you out. Reg will jump on the free man. He'll end up on Snow when he's housing on Wind.Scott: Snow is the working cellblocks. Kiana: Yeah. Shoutout Rayburn. But, yeah, definitely. Once we started Project Detour, started with Pat, Vladi, all of us was the board in that space. We've seen how Reggie-- there was countless other Reggies that was a part of that. We've seen a development in that space. Once we start showing them that they can take ownership in their own personal development, we've seen it, understanding that we're not just going to talk about Sigmund Freud and Eric Burns. We're not going to talk about the three personality traits. We know you understand what they are, but this is who created them and this is how they created them. And we can do the same.Once we've seen that, built that brotherhood, and Reggie's turned from a writeup every week to a writeup and no writeups in two, three years. So, we see that it's working. We see that they start taking ownership and accountability for their own actions. Why can't that be replicated out here? Scott: That's what you're doing now.Kiana: I came home in 2011, man. Project Detour was founded in 2013, once I figured out how business was supposed to look.Scott: So, you came home in 2011. Tell us about your transition out, some of the challenges you had, and then let's kind of talk about all of-- this dude's got his hand in 100 different pots that he created. I'm not talking about pots that other people created that he's jumping into. He created those pots. So, let's talk about that. Tell us about the challenges you faced coming home. Kiana: I always was a smart guy, I could say. I know how to read and write. So, the challenges that I faced were systemic challenges because the physical challenges, I was able to maneuver around them. For an example, I came home on a Wednesday. Friday, I was working as a crane mechanic. Never touched a crane a day in my life. Don't know what a crane looked like, but I was hired as a crane operator. Riding down Fourth Street, turned down Engineers Row, see [unintelligible 00:45:21] "crane operators, hiring now. Crane operators, hiring now." I pulled into H&E. Shoutout to H&E Equipment. Pulled into H&E parking lots, sat down. One guy comes out, I said, "Hey, man, what do you do?" He said, "I'm a crane operator." I said, "What y'all operating?" And he said, "Man, [unintelligible 00:45:38] it's a walk 7200s, 41000s, 4000s." [laughter] Kiana: I'm like, "All right, cool." Scott: I got that. Kiana: I go home--Scott: I got my driver's license. [laughter] Kiana: I just got my driver's license. I'm 34 years old, man, I just got my driver's license for the first time in my life. I'm happy. So, I go home, YouTube University. YouTube University. I jumped on YouTube.Beatty: Shoutout to YouTube University. Kiana: Jumped on YouTube, man. Put in "manual to [unintelligible 00:46:03] 4100s, 41000, 7200s, 72,000s." They told me, man, like, "This is what you do. This is how you start it. This is how you grease your lines. Check your lines before you get in there." Next day, I went over there. I went back to H&E, filled out an application. Have you ever been convicted of a felony? I checked no. If I check yeah, they're not even going to talk to me. Right? Scott: Right. I don't blame you.Kiana: Yeah, I check no.Scott: I'm all for it. I support it. Kiana: I check no. They took my application that day, they called me back the next day. Actually, I was at the head, because minority crane operators are nine and void. Scott: High demand. Kiana: Yes, nine and void. Really, really nine and void. I ain't no shit about no crane. I know you can make $50 to operate the crane for 10 minutes. Shane: Yes, sir. Kiana: I didn't know that. $50 an hour, and you up there 12 hours a day, but you're only working for 10 minutes, 15 minutes. They called me, and I went in the next day. I had my nice shoes on, my suit, I'm job ready. I'm ready for this. I'm prepared. And that's what a man like-- you could start at 41? I'm like, "Yeah, I can start." He said, "Come on, let's go. We don't need the interview. I just want to see if you could do it." So, we went out there, I walked around the crane, looked up under it, popped the bottom where the lines were at. I always checked the grease lines. When I did that, said, "Hey, man, we're going to get you trained."Scott: We got one professional. Kiana: That was basically all it took. I worked there for my first two and a half, three years.Scott: Let me ask you a question. The no box on the application, that never came up?Kiana: It never came up until my passion of what I wanted to do in life. It started really burning me because I started getting frustrated with waking up in the morning.Scott: Working for somebody else?Kiana: Not really working for somebody else. I'm not aligning myself with what I'm supposed to be doing. Scott: Okay, I feel you. I understand that.Kiana: I'm making good money. At this point, I'm a crane mechanic. I went to training. I just started getting some things to really put me in a position to be this operator. But I'm waking up in the morning and I'm like--Shane: You're not happy.Beatty: Yeah.Scott: You don't feel like you feel--[crosstalk] Kiana: I'm in the tool room and the conversations that I was having a year ago, I'm not having these conversations with these people. I'm not feeling it. I'm starting to see myself drift more into Project Detour, because now I'm starting to take my check, and I'm taking young kids in my community, and we go and get some chicken and sit under the park and talk for 45 minutes, asking them what they need. Now, I'm taking my check, and now I'm helping them get school uniforms and putting shoes on their feet and attending the football games and trying to help out with the coaches and talking to the students.Then, I started actually getting in tune with the courts because a lot of my young brothers had records. I had to sign them off on my [unintelligible [00:44:53] because their daddy in jail and their mom out on drugs. So, I started seeing that I was needed in the space that I wasn't occupying. I was getting money. I'm straight. I'm driving a Range Rover, this is in '13, I got a 12 Range Rover, just came out, of BMW. I'm doing good. Scott: Bought by H&E crane money? Kiana: Yes, definitely. Shane: Mechanic money that is.Kiana: But when you're not aligned with your values in life, man, you can have all the riches in the world, it's not going to sit right with you. It's not going to feel because right now, man, I feel I'm in the best place in my life that I have been in my life, and I look at every day as me getting better than I was yesterday, because my worst day out here subsides the best day I had inside of there. Shane: That's right. Kiana: It oversees, it just demolishes. Scott: From H&E, you just said, "Hey, look, I'm going to--" [crosstalk] Kiana: Yeah, I've got to go. I've got to start what I want to do. I want to start my passion. Scott: So, what was next? Kiana: So, Project Detour was next. Project Detour, full-fledged. Got the board, got the bylaws, got the policies and procedures in order, got everybody on the card. We just started doing a lot of mentoring in the city, and then I went back to school. Now, it's me running the organization, attending Delgado Community College full time. Shoutout Delgado. Shane: Big shoutout--[crosstalk] Scott: What's their mascot?Kiana: The Patriot. Scott: The Patriot. Kiana: Yeah, they're a patriot. Scott: Delgado Patriot. Kiana: If I got you wrong, shoutout Delgado. [laughter] Kiana: Something like that a buccaneer or a patriot. But, yeah, definitely I'm getting my criminal justice degree. Actually, I have eight more credits that I need, so I'll be graduating next year. Scott: Are you still going right now? Kiana: Yeah, I'm attending SUNO right now. Shoutout SUNO. It's a lot that I'm doing, man. I'm trying to better myself in all aspects, not just my personal outside life, but my internal being. All of that comes into the space, and I don't think that I'm going to be fully, fully healed until I get exonerated. So, that's what I'm working on right now.Shane: Fulfilling that passion, that burning desire. Kiana: I'm working with the district attorney now with Jefferson Parish. We've been having maybe a few meetings, a couple of meetings, and that's how I want to close the film with him saying, "Yeah, Kiana, we think that you have done everything that you've need to need to do in the course of your life, man, and we want to honor your wishes." [crosstalk] Scott: Are you working with--? Kiana: Paul Connick? Scott: No, the organization that does the--Kiana: The Innocent Project? Scott: Yeah.Kiana: Funny story about that, man. The Innocent Project, they don't work with individuals who's free. Scott: Oh, they only do incarcerated.Kiana: Yes. That was a problem that I really didn't understand when I went to them, because, trust me, I probably ruffled every feather in the state of Louisiana trying to see what can I do, until I was just like, "You know what? Just keep walking in your purpose. It's not what you're doing, is where you're going." That's the overall piece of this entire synopsis, man. I think that's when I'm going to get completely holistically healed. Well, I could be able to get exonerated. I've done a lot of work and then once I get exonerated, I want to continue to be a force. Scott: I want to ask you this. I'm completely guilty of all the crimes that I committed. So, when I was in prison, I had to-- go ahead.Beatty: Allegedly committed. [laughter] Scott: No, I did all that. Kiana: He was convicted, so it's over. Scott: It's over. I was in prison, and I had to swallow the pill, "Okay, you've done a lot of dumb shit and I'm paying for it." But I can't imagine the mental that a person must go through in your situation that spent 17 years in prison and not have done the crime. Dude, I don't want you to go into great detail because I know, but what's the mental process for that? Kiana: It was basically piggybacking what you just said. I have done a lot of shit in my life. I wasn't a choir boy when I was out here. A lot of things that I didn't do, it shouldn't have amount to that sentence, that such severe sentence. But just being open minded, you can imprison me physically, but you can't entrap my mind, that was kind of like the cage bird sings. I strive myself on education because I was so uneducated sitting in this trial. Only thing I could understand is objection, overrule, sustained, objection, overrule, sustained. What does that mean? I know when they say that, the judge say something that counters what they say. So, I felt stupid. It felt like I was in Charlie Brown. [onomatopoeia] That's how my entire trial felt. And my trial was like nine days, the first one. Might I add that it was a non-unanimous jury? Shout out to the UJC. Scott: [crosstalk] -nonunanimous jury. You want to explain what that means real quick for our layman? Kiana: Yeah, for the laymen. Non-unanimous jury, I was found guilty on two counts of first-degree murder, non-unanimously, meaning that 1 person out of the 12 said that I was innocent, saying that the state did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt, which the law states that you should be judged by a jury of your peers and unanimously deliberated upon. Louisiana and Oregon were the last two states that upheld the non-unanimous jury pool, which means that 10 people can say that you're guilty, and two people can say that they don't believe that you're guilty, and you still can be sent to prison for life. And that happened to me twice. My first trial was 11-1. I was found guilty and sentenced to life. In 1998, with the great help of Christopher Aberle, my appellate attorney, shoutout Chris, He put together a wonderful brief, and my case was remanded and set aside for further proceedings.I was sent back to Jefferson Paris, tried again for second-degree murder, and I was found guilty again. That jury deliberations were 10-2. Two people said this time that, "Oh no, he didn't do that." And 10 people said, "Yes." I was found guilty again on a lesser charge, which was manslaughter. They sentenced me to 34 years under Act 138, which gave me 17 years inside of a penal institution and 17 years remaining on parole. Honestly, we have right now currently over 5700 people that are incarcerated, serving life or high numbers on a non-unanimous jury. That PJI, shoutout PJI, Promise of Justice Initiative, they're working closely trying to get those individuals home on that. In 2018, I had the-- man, that was one of the peak campaigns in my existence. Scott: I do want to talk about the documentary that I had the fortunate privilege of watching.Kiana: Kiana's Mission. Scott: Yeah, man. I said at the beginning of this podcast, it takes to make me cry. My wife would say different. She says I'm a big teddy bear. I don't believe that. I believe I'm a big lion. But I did, and I teared up and it touched me on multiple spots in the documentary. I want you to talk about that a little bit and then talk about 40 for 40 and then Roots. Just tell everybody about what inspired the documentary and how long you've been doing it. Kiana: Definitely. Kiana's Mission is a documentary, like I said a little bit earlier, it's a story about resilience. It's a story about overcoming the hurdles of life and coming out the end still feeling prosperous. I've been shooting this documentary maybe about-- what we in '22 now? So, maybe about nine years, having the ability to get introduced to a camera. When I came home, I learned that the camera is therapeutic, being able to sit down and tell pieces about you and not feel vulnerable, because eventually somebody may see this and it may help change their lives.What I did was I just walked around with the camera with me all day taking basic photos, and then I was like, "You know what, bro? I think it's time that you start putting your life in perspective. How can you get your story heard?" Because everybody has a story. Not everybody makes it to cable. Everybody has their intention. So, just having the ability to be in a position to where my life work, it needs to be televised. So, I'm working with Roots of Renewal. Shoutout Roots. Shane: Shoutout big Roots.Kiana: I'm the ED over there. Scott: What's Roots? Kiana: Roots is a reentry organization geared to our young men, 18 to 26, reentering home from incarceration. Scott: Is that in New Orleans? Kiana: Yes, New Orleans. Actually, we're in three different parishes. We're in New Orleans. We're in Jefferson and we're in Terrebonne. Just being available for those young men. What we do is we purchase blighted properties throughout the city's area, rehab them, give the guys job skills so that they may be productive in the construction field if they choose to.Beatty: That's awesome. Kiana: Yeah, definitely. Scott: They get any type of certification? Kiana: Yes, definitely. So, I pride myself on training.Scott: Okay.Kiana: I think that we can't go through life without the proper tools. Once they come to Roots, what we do-- In the documentary, you can see that I have that camera setting up, interviewing my young men, because that's the first initial engagement. I want you to understand that I want to know how you were when you first came to me. And then throughout the middle course of this pace, we're going to do another one, just to do a recap, a summary on what you have done. I use the Poverty Stoplight method. Shout out Dr. Martin Burt. He's running for president of Paraguay. Man, I got you, you're my dog. I'm on your team. Beatty: You've got my vote.Kiana: You already know. I was introduced to the Poverty Stoplight, Dr. Martin Burt, maybe in about 2017. Scott: Is he from New Orleans? Kiana: No. He's from Paraguay. Scott: Oh, Paraguay. That's the country?Kiana: Yeah. Scott: Where is that at? I'm geographically challenged. Kiana: That's like in the Middle East over there by Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, but not in that area. Scott: Oh. He's running for the president of that country.Kiana: Of that country, yes. He's already the secretary.Scott: Hey, my boy got president friends. Kiana: Yeah, definitely. I'm actually in his book. You could go check it out Who Owns Poverty. Kiana Calloway is in that space. He's a professor at Georgetown University. Scott: I'm going to get your autograph before you leave.Kiana: Oh, man. I got some things--Scott: [crosstalk] -now before you blow really big.Kiana: I've got something on the horizon, man.Scott: I bet you do.Kiana: So, working with Dr. Martin Burt, we sat down, and he told me about how broke poverty down into six dimensions. Income and infrastructure, education and employment, housing and motivation, and integrity and insurance. It shows how we can put these indicators into a life map so that you can actually see what poverty looks like. Instead of feeling it, now you can see it. Scott: How does it work as far as showing the guys? Is it a progress chart or something? Kiana: Yeah, definitely. It gives back in data on-- it comes into the red, yellow, and green. What I did was I restructured that model because the way that poverty looks in Paraguay, it don't look this way in Uptown New Orleans.Shane: That's right. Kiana: What we did was we developed the New Orleans spectrum, I'm the parenting hub here in the United States that had this data tool. Anyway, so what we did was we identified, if you're coming home from incarceration, it's practically like you're bankrupt. You're coming home after filing bankruptcy. You have nothing. Income, transportation, housing, internet access, a clean bed to sleep in, all of those are indicators of poverty, but we don't understand that, so when we come home--Shane: And it's vital.Kiana: Very vital. They're vital to you reentering, and they're vital to recidivism. If you start with Roots of Renewal in the 26 survey, and out of the 26 questions, you have 25 reds, we got work to do. Like, we got work to do. Scott: So, they fill out an assessment. Kiana: Yes. Scott: And then, you track their progress based on that assessment. Kiana: As we work forward, the tools that they need.Scott: [crosstalk] -red to yellow to green. Kiana: Reds to yellows to greens. Scott: Nice. Kiana: We try to achieve that in four months because Roots of Renewal is a 16 week job training program. Inside of that program, which Project Detour, is over the programming side of it, it gives personal development courses, financial literacy courses. It gives critical thinking, transaction analysis. We deal with the rehabilitation of the being because--Shane: Of the individual.Kiana: Of the individual. We need you to be in the right space if we want to send you to this job. So, we've got to help you build this resume. We partner with local construction companies throughout those areas so that long-term employment is definitely in the realms.Scott: After the program.Kiana: Exactly. Along with lifetime membership, alumni perks, because once you get in the Roots, man, you're a brother now. It's not that you just come through a program or a project. No, you got my seven numbers. You could call my seven numbers at any given time, and they do that right now. Scott: It's awesome, man. Kiana: Yeah, definitely. So, that's Roots of Renewal. I began to be the ED at Roots of Renewal in 2019. I started there as the programs manager, just dealing with the programs with Project Detour. I was contracted in through Amy and Brendan, who were the actual founders of this space, as the programs manager. I definitely just dealt with peer support groups. Like, how can we develop a curriculum that's going to show the impact of these individuals actually reentering? We got a non-recidivism rate of 98.9%. Only one brother, and that's Javelle. He comes home next month, I believe. Shoutout, Javelle, we got you when you get out here, man. Just trying to stay active, implying myself into a space the way I know that I'm desperately needed. Scott: Man, you're doing it. Also, an Instagram page that caught my eye that you also set up, and it's a project that you work on 40 for 40. Tell the audience about the 40 for 40, A, what they need to look up, and then, B, what prompted it and how that went.Kiana: 40 for 40 Worldwide. Definitely, man. Like I said, during COVID me, Durado Brooks-- Shoutout, Durado. Mark Kerry. Shoutout, Mark. We traveled Louisiana, man, and we had an opportunity of interviewing over 400 individuals that's formerly incarcerated. Over 400 formerly incarcerated entrepreneurs. A lot of these individuals have their own businesses, started their own businesses. We went to donut shops, we went to sandwich shops. We went to Twisted Wings, Twisted Burgers. We went out there while people were cutting grass and washing cars. Everywhere that they were, when we say we were in their space, we were pulling up on them for like an hour. We had the conversation, man. "Tell me what it's like after incarceration?" Man, the stories were beautiful. I just had to try to figure out how can we take that collage and turn it into power because our stories are powerful within themselves. So, during COVID, me, Durado, Mark, we sat down on the videos, we kept going over them. Actually, this year, I said, "Man, we need to do something with this. Let's drop a Black History Month project." So, that's where the Instagram came from. We drop one story every day of Black History Month-Scott: For 28 days. Kiana: For 28 days, you're going to see 28, and we're going to do the same thing next Black History Month. We're going to try to replicate that. Scott: It's like an annual thing. Kiana: Yes. It don't make sense to just have it once. We correlated stories, we drop one every day, and we correlated these stories of impacted survivors today. If you could read the actual captions, we're putting them in the spaces of W. E. B. Du Bois. We put them in the spaces with Medgar Evers. We put them in the spaces with Fred Hampton. Like, we're putting them in the same energy to let them know that man, the narrative that our ancestors were speaking-- and I don't say ancestors, I'm talking like, 40 years ago, 50 years ago, 60 years ago. The same narrative that they were speaking, we're still saying that same narrative. I think that we need to wake up and understand, how can we put a face to pain? They went through a lot, but they're overcomers. They're survivors. So, yeah, go punch into Instagram, 40 for 40 Worldwide. If you are in any other state that has a jail, contact us, because we're coming into your state. Jim: All right. I don't ever do this, by the way. I normally sit back behind that camera unless I'm running my podcast. But I'm going to tell you what you inspired me--Scott: What's your podcast?Jim: Local Leaders: The Podcast, Bloody Angola. I produce Real Life Real Crime with Woody Overton and got a bunch more coming out. I've listened to everything that you said, and inspiring. Inspiring shit. I'll tell you-- Kiana: Appreciate it.Shane: Real shit too. Jim: Yes, exactly. What impresses me the most about you is you said something a few minutes ago. You give back a lot. A true leader gives back. We are raised in our lives to believe being first in anything is the leader, winning. No, giving back is winning. You have done nothing but have people-- in my opinion, people try to hold you down, and it seems like the harder you get held down, the harder you push back. And that's an innate quality. It's rare and impressive, man. I want to obviously shout you out for that. But I have one question. Before all this happened in your life, we