Podcasts about winshape

What does it actually look like to disciple your kids in their faith – from the early years all the way through launching them into adulthood? In this episode, Amy and Sara sit down with Jeff and Courtney Osborn, parents of two grown daughters who love the Lord, care deeply for others, and still have a strong relationship with their family. Jeff and Courtney share honest reflections from their parenting journey – the things they did well, the things they'd do differently, and how they learned to trust God with their kids every step of the way. You'll hear practical wisdom and encouragement on: Letting go of the “perfect parenting formula” Balancing grace with expectations Praying intentionally for your kids Navigating the shift from authority to influence in the teen years Creating meaningful moments and traditions that shape faith over time Whether you're parenting toddlers or teens, this conversation will remind you of a freeing truth: you don't have to get everything right—God is at work in your kids' lives. Resources: Family Camps and Parent/Child Weekends at WinShape Camps -- Question of the Week: How were you a blessing today? -- Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara Jones Guests: Jeff Osborn and Courtney Osborn  Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

*Disclaimer: This topic is not intended for young listeners. Please use discretion.   Maximize PLEASURE in Marriage by Understanding Your Wife Better: An Interview with Francie Winslow (Episode 294)   Proverbs 5:19b NLT “May you always be captivated by her love.”   *Transcription Below*   Francie Winslow is a wife, mom, and intimacy evangelist. Three fun facts about Francie:   NO. 1 I saw a glimpse of Jesus' heart one day as a 19-year-old, when I sat in a Thai brothel with girls my age. My friend and I bought two girls for the night so we could take them to dinner and shower them with REAL LOVE. It was there that I realized there was nothing more that I wanted than to give God all of me.   NO. 2 I got married when I was 20, after knowing my husband for only 10 months, and dating him for less than 5 months. Total craziness, I know, but so clearly the way God was leading me.   NO. 3 My husband and I have 6 kids, some with special needs and chronic health issues. So yeah, life right now is a bit crazy. But it never lacks for excitement as I learn about the things they really need and how God is working in me as I serve my family in every season.   Francie's Website   Follow along with her @franciewinslow   Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Questions and Topics We Cover: As moms, how do we go from “touched out” to “turned on”? How can we realistically choose to still prioritize connection, right in the middle of the busy? After diving into this topic for many years, will you share what you have learned about orgasm?   Other Savvy Sauce Episode Mentioned: 4. Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen 7. Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage With Christian Sex Therapist Pioneers, Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 63 Maximizing Sexual Enjoyment During the 3 Most Challenging Seasons in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner 252. Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:05) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.   I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage, while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org slash savvy.   I'm so excited to welcome back my returning guest, Francie Winslow. This conversation is going to be geared a little bit more toward understanding women, but I want you to know it's going to be very beneficial for both husbands and wives. I think husbands are going to appreciate getting a glimpse into how their wife's body works, and how they can love them better and serve them, even in the bedroom, so that they can enjoy a more fulfilling sex life with you as their spouse.   And for wives, I believe you're going to appreciate your feelings or your vague thoughts being put into words, because Francie has this way of articulating big ideas and making them bite-sized and understandable through all of her wisdom. So, not everything will apply to every wife, but I hope that everyone gets to find encouragement and enjoy a deeper sexual connection with your spouse after listening to this message and applying the wisdom.   Here's our chat. Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Francie.   Francie Winslow: (2:05 - 2:07) It's so good to be here, thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: (2:07 - 2:20) Well, I'd love to begin with this idea of sharing sparks, because I was so intrigued the first time that I heard you teach on this topic. So, can you just explain more about this concept?   Francie Winslow: (2:22 - 5:56) Sure. Well, I think the idea really just came from this experience that my husband and I have had of knowing that, kind of in movies, it's portrayed that romance is just always fiery and passionate, and then you get married, you have kids, real life sets in, and it's like, hey, what does this actually look like to have a sex drive or to have a sense of passion in your marriage? And just for some context, because I think context helps, I have six kids from 18 down to 7, some pretty significant special needs, autoimmune diseases.   We've got a lot packed into our little home. And so, then you have a marriage that you want to stay on fire, you want to stay growing, but life is full, life is hard. And so, it's just easy to feel like the fire's just gone out.   And my husband and I work really hard on intentionality in our sex life, and we kind of came up with this idea called sparks, because sometimes that's all you have, is like a tiny spark, and that's actually okay. You think about a campfire, really what you need is you just need a spark, and then you just need to blow on it a little bit, and it turns into embers and then can turn into a fire. And so, we talk about rather than like, I've lost my sex drive, or do you have high sex drive or low drive, kind of releasing that concept and the heaviness that can be around that concept and just talk about cultivating sparks.   And a spark is essentially just a bit of desire, a bit of arousal, a bit of attraction, and we can kind of be so busy in our day that we might have a fleeting thought of, oh, it would be nice to be together tonight, and then you just forget about it. But rather than having a fleeting thought or a sensation in your body and letting it pass, we talk about sharing our sparks. And so, we'll, if I have a thought of, hey, I'm thinking about your biceps today, you know, like something playful and fun, and how much I am attracted to you, I'll text it to him or he'll text it to me.   Or if we're in person, we'll share our sparks by, you know, grabbing each other and pulling each other into the pantry for a second, having a little makeout or having a little, you know, quick, playful petting session, and we're just being playful for 30 seconds here, 30 seconds there in the middle of real life. And it's a way to say, hey, I'm bringing my little spark, you're bringing your little spark, and we're doing, honestly, the best we can in the, in the midst of real life in the midst of real hard to keep our fire going. And it is amazing the impact that that's had on our marriage, because it's just easy to assume, we're just too tired.   And then days go by weeks go by and, and really roommate, the roommate rut sets in or disconnection or even pain because you begin to miss each other. And it feels hard to get reconnected. So, we've found it to be really beneficial and simple just to say, okay, if I have a fleeting feeling in my body, a little sensation, a little attraction, a little arousal, a little desire, a little flirtatious energy, I'm just gonna express it as quickly or as sincerely as I can in that moment.   Like I said, sometimes it's through text, sometimes it would be a quick phone call, hey, you know, I'm thinking about you tonight, or, you know, playfully, like, what are you wearing, or like a text a little, a little invitation to connection later. And it's those little things that make a really big difference. And I would say the physical things, especially like grabbing each other, hey, we'll say to our kids, mom and dad need to have a quick conversation, like real serious, and then we'll go to the laundry room or go to the pantry.   And it's just those literal 30 second exchanges that are so small that make a really big difference in keeping the fire going in our marriage. And it's super meaningful, especially in these really busy seasons.   Laura Dugger: (5:58 - 6:21) I love that because you've also pointed out, I think, in the past that you don't buy into the whole who has high libido, who has lower drive. Rather, you see it as energy that can be fostered. And also, then just that connection of we have the spark, but then sharing it, it can ignite faster.   So, anything else you'd like to add about?   Francie Winslow: (6:22 - 9:35) Yeah, I think that's good to bring it up. I mean, a spark is like a bit of energy. And if you think about like a spark of fire, like that creates something and a spark of desire in your marriage, or a tiny spark of arousal is sexual energy.   And so, I think of it as how do I grow sexual energy. And that, ironically, has to be a really intentional thing. It has to be like, I think about being with my husband, I actually spend time, maybe even my planner thinking, okay, I'd like to have sex, we'd like to have sex at some point this week, what day would be best where I'd have the most energy or where he would be, you know, not as stressed out because he had a lighter workday or maybe not have to early morning, you think about your week, your time, in terms of energy. And when you think about sexual energy, when we might have the most sexual energy or creating sexual energy.   And so, we've realized that we came to that point of kind of forsaking the high drive and low drive identities, because I think they can become Oh, he's the high, I'm the low, or vice versa. And that can feel heavy. And it can feel like pressure, like I feel ashamed, because I'm low, he feels disappointed, because he's high, whatever it might be.   And that can switch for men and women as well. And rather than seeing it as that, and maybe we've just like, life has beat us up. So, neither of us have a high drive at this point.   And but yet, we still have a very active sex life without that clinging to who's high and who's low, because we're both committed to growing our sexual energy. And so for me, that looks like thinking about being with him, it looks like tuning into my body in a sensuous way, as a tired mom, and that looks like holding my cup of coffee or cup of tea intentionally and like feeling sensation in the everyday moments from wafts of you know, steam coming from my coffee to the sunlight on my face to washing in the shower, I can actually realize that I've had years where I will do the whole shower routine and not feel a thing like I didn't even notice sensation from shampoo or from the loofah or from lotion, I just did it robotically to get through the chore of caring for my body. And I've switched really to think of it as being paying attention to my body paying attention to sensation paying attention to how nice it feels to wash my face with a soap that smells good. And it's those things of going slow and being embodied and paying attention to my body and sensations that does transfer over to help me remember, oh, I want to foster awareness of my body.   And being aware of my body is a way of fostering sexual energy, because I'm thinking about how things feel. And I'm thinking about my body and how it's responding to touch. And then that helps me honestly feel more when my husband touches me.   So, we can talk about that later about the issue of kind of feeling numb in our bodies. But I think that that is a reality for marriage later on is that we can become numb in our sex life, because we're just busy, and we're tired, and things are routine, and we're kind of bored. And so fostering sexual energy, getting out of our heads and into our bodies, thinking about our times together, growing our skills, sexually learning about learning about sex, learning about anatomy, all of those things are ways to grow sexual energy, as well as just the playfulness of the sparks and, you know, pulling each other into the pantry and having a quick makeout session, those kinds of things.   Laura Dugger: (9:36 - 10:53) I love those practical examples. And I think you're right; we should get to numbing or what it feels like maybe later on in marriage. But let's go back to Newlyweds or especially new moms, because just for all of marriage, sexual connection is going to cement us together.   So, of course, the enemy of our soul is going to want to do anything at every stage to make us too busy, too distracted, to have that intimate connection. And many times, new parents have things that make it difficult and challenging to connect. But it's not like it gets any easier, because then other difficulties are going to come in, whether that's raising older children or medical issues that come in or perimenopause and menopause.   So, there are always going to be obstacles. But I want us to be wise, whatever season we're in right now, to cultivate our delight and connection in every season. So, I don't know about you, Francie, but the most common phrase I've heard new moms tell me is, I've had people touching me all day.   I don't want him touching me at night. And I'd love for you to offer us a healthier narrative.   Francie Winslow: (10:54 - 14:47) Yeah. Well, I don't get to speak in person very often because of my commitment to be really invested at home with my kids. But I am speaking a few times this spring to some moms' groups.   And the theme is from touched out to turned on. So, I just want to affirm, if anybody is feeling that they are for sure not alone. I hear it all the time as well.   And there is this dynamic of I'm so touched out; I don't want to be touched anymore. And the thing I've learned in understanding our bodies, understanding sexuality, and especially female sexuality is that we are not only coming to the table with our bodies and our anatomy, we're coming with our nervous systems. And so there is this thing at play where we have been having stimulation come at us all day through media, through our phones, through needs of others, and we are touched out.   And another word for that would be overstimulated. And so, I would say you're not broken, you're not hopeless, you're overstimulated, and you're exhausted. And it is very hard for a woman to come into a place of arousal or desire from that place of what's probably fight or flight, that feeling of I just can't be touched anymore.   I am so overwhelmed. I feel like this bubbling over of anxiety or a place of like shut down and disconnected, I want to withdraw. And so those are two nervous system states that we often go in when we are overdone, overcooked, too much has been coming at us.   And so, when we're in that place, and we're feeling overstimulated, and like, I don't want to be touched, I would say the invitation is simply to take a minute and realize, oh, I'm not broken. I'm not actually as unavailable, maybe as I think I need to become available to myself for a minute, I need to reset, I need to remember that my body needs rest in order to connect and communicate that rather than it being like, oh, don't touch me, I've been touched out. And it looks like feels like rejection.   It's more of an invitation to care for yourself, knowing that, oh, in order to be available for connection, I need to see it not as another chore, but a place to be nourished and a place to reconnect to my own body. And that sexuality was meant to be a place of nourishment, and care and rejuvenation, not just another need to be meeting. And so, I think that's the other mindset shift is we need a minute to rest, reconnect to our bodies, maybe a shower, maybe a bath, a minute to say, okay, I'm very overstimulated, I do need a second.   And then to see that. And this is a call out to the husbands to like your job is to love your wife so well that she comes out of a sexual experience nourished. And if that's not happening in your marriage, know that that's actually the design of sexuality.   And it might take some communication and work to switch our mindset. Because a lot of times we've been raised with a mindset that maybe X is a man's need. And another thing we have to do as wives, but that's actually a real huge lie.   It's not about a man's need. It's about connection. And it's about nourishment.   And it's about fully giving ourselves to one another and being cared for. And so what amazes me is the power of sexuality, even orgasm release, pleasure to be able to wash out a woman's nervous system and like a bath like oof, I got reset, I got this sense of the rush of the sexual hormones, the serotonin and the oxytocin and this place of deep connection is God's design for us. And so having this flip a mindset of it's not another need I have to meet, but it's actually a nourishing gift to me to get into my body to receive pleasure.   There is a transition I think we need to give ourselves grace for to like, okay, I might want to shower and I might want to get out of my head and back into my body a little bit, but it really was designed to be a gift. And so that's, that's kind of my invitation is for women to receive it as a space that should be nourishing and can be nourishing and actually really healthy for her mind, body and spirit, even in tired seasons.   Laura Dugger: (14:48 - 15:10) I appreciate what you said there, because you're flipping it from all day, maybe we are receiving very unpleasant touch. But this is a different type of very pleasant touch to be receiving, or we've been giving all day. This is the refilling, nourishing.   And I think if we change our minds first, then our body can follow.   Francie Winslow: (15:10 - 16:10) And there is an element to I think, creating an environment that does feel safe to let go. Because I think if you think about moms, they're giving all day, they've got the babies nearby, the monitors on, you know, the laundry piles huge, like there's all these distractions, and it doesn't actually feel like that safe of an environment to be nourished. And so, I would say even take that into consideration of what would make sexual experiences with your husband feel nourishing to you.   And it might mean a really nice candle is lit or just a few things to change the environment to signal to your nervous system. Oh, yeah, this is a time of nourishment, not just okay, now I've got to switch, you know, here and meet another need. But this is a time to be beautiful.   I would maybe put a noisemaker on for you, you know, to drown out some of the feeling that you're going to be heard, or you might wake up the baby, make sure the door is locked. Just take a minute to feel like you're giving yourself a gift in that time as well. And sometimes that can help to kind of quiet the environment to make it feel like a place where you want to let go and you really want to receive.   Laura Dugger: (16:11 - 16:51) That's good. And the husbands can be so participatory with this, even that they have so much strength and usually more energy and sex gives them energy. So, if they can find creative ways to, I think, separate her as much as possible from mom to lover.   So, I mean, people are aware of these like put if the husband does the bedtime bath routine or can finish the dishes or just do those physically taxing tasks so that she can have that transition time. I think there are just endless ways to be creative. And I'm assuming husbands would be so motivated to love and serve their wife that way.   Francie Winslow: (16:52 - 17:08) Yeah, yeah, I think it's definitely a reality to think, okay, what does it look like for us both to step forward and really love each other? Well, and that will just probably be different for every couple but being able to know that you can use your voice and say that, hey, I really want to connect this would help me.   Laura Dugger: (17:09 - 17:25) That's good. So, we've addressed that obstacle then of physical touch. But let's also talk about the constant noise in our minds as women.   So, how can we move from getting stuck in our head to waking up our body?   Francie Winslow: (17:26 - 21:44) Yeah, well, I mentioned it a little bit earlier. But I'll know for for me, I feel if I'm not very purposeful in the way that I take in technology and take in my phone, I can easily just live in a state of perpetual kind of humming anxiety, and not really know why. I mean, apart from like the parts of life that are really hard, and paying attention to, okay, what am I allowing in?   What am I allowing to have access to me? What am I meditating on? How much white space?   Am I giving my heart or am I like listening to a podcast 24 hours a day, or, you know, constantly having stuff in versus creating space for quiet in my body. And in my heart, just even to hear myself breathe, or to sit with some instrumental music and just be for a and not be performing or producing or consuming something. That's been a big thing for my nervous system, honestly, in that context.   But I think the other thing that I mentioned earlier was our five senses. And I talked to women all the time who say I'm struggling with pleasure, I'm struggling with orgasm, I don't feel a whole lot. And there's a couple reasons we don't.   But one of the reasons is we live so much in our head, with all the things we have to think about our to do list that never ends the and I think the part of having a phone is that the Instacart is there, the Amazon is there, the emails from the school are there, it's just always something that we need to be thinking about or processing. And that can cause us to live so much in our heads that we kind of live from our, our head up our neck up, and we neglect the fact that we have an entire body. And so I often be reminding myself, get out of your head and into your body feel, feel even just like your belly exhaling when you breathe, like that's so small, but if you can slow down enough to take five slow deep breaths, you'll feel your heart rate go down, you'll feel the sense of awareness even of God's presence of the sense that He's with you the sense that you know, you can navigate whatever you need to with peace. And so, I do a lot of things like take a walk without my phone. I'll sit on my back porch even just to sit in the sun for a minute to let the sun on my body and I'm always aware at this point, I want to feel things in my body because God gave us five senses to be present to the moment to be present to our kids to be present to Him.   There's that classic book, Brother Lawrence, the practice of the presence of God. And it's this practicing awareness of God's nearness. And it's a practice.   And not to make a leap that makes two people, people feel too uncomfortable, but to practice pleasure is a thing to get out of your head and into the sense of awareness in your day of sensation, a beauty of love of the presence of your kids, their smiles, their faces, and then in pleasure to be super aware of the presence of your husband, of your own self with him of the love that you're having of the feelings you're having in your body.   And the noise that comes at us all day basically robs us of that awareness. And so, I think that the world's system of operating right now is maybe intentionally unintentionally, I'm not sure, bent on making us numb to God, to each other, to ourselves, to our souls, and to true genuine connection. And so, I think it's a real fight for me to live connected to myself, to God, to others.   And what does it look like to really be present? And that's actually such a unique key to pleasure, to sexual pleasure that we wouldn't necessarily connect. We would think it's about like, oh, tips or positions, but it's actually about becoming present.   And the noise coming at us tries to rob us of that presence, that awareness. And so, I think it's a very integrated conversation, whether it's talking about spiritual intimacy, sexual intimacy, obviously friendship, wherever we're trying to connect with someone or God, but the call is to be present and embodied. And that's what Jesus was.   He was an embodiment of God. And He came to actually connect in a genuine face-to-face way. And yeah, so I think of when I think of the noise of my phone, the noise coming at us all the time, it's just draining of my energy, of my sexual energy, of my emotional energy, on all the levels.   And it's constantly a reminder of God saying, “that's not your design. Your design was connection and presence and how that hits all the markers in all the relationships.”   Laura Dugger: (21:45 - 24:26) And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From pre-marital to parenting to the emptiness phase, there is an opportunity for you. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their journey. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for.   During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more. I've stayed on site at Winshape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/savvy, S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Getting out of our mind, getting into our body, how you said paying attention to your coffee and those five senses outside the bedroom, then when you're inside the bedroom, I remember Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner just saying, thank God for every tingly feeling that you get. I think you're more aware of your body in those times of intimate connection if you're practicing that outside of it, which is what you're advising. I guess one other super practical tip, I love it that a friend years ago told me the way she transitioned from work into sexual connection with her husband, they invested in a massage table. She would get 20 minutes or whatever on the table and he would just relax her head to toe and then they enjoyed that connection so much more.   Francie Winslow: (24:27 - 28:23) Absolutely. Yeah, there's different types of touch. I talk about this in one of my podcasts, but there's therapeutic touch, which is like, “hey, I think I need a foot rub. I just need to relax.”   Then there's nurturing touch. I will walk up a lot of times to my husband and just stand there and that signal of like, just hold me.   I just need to be touched in that way, not groped. I don't even need to be playfully touched. I just need to be secure and held.   Sometimes that's what we need to let go and let our nervous systems calm down. I will say even like a hug for 30 seconds, you can feel your body, hug until you feel yourself let go because you feel yourself soften. Noticing the sensations of, Wyatt and I went on a date the other day and I could feel myself.   I was just noticing the sensations of my body and I'm like, I'm gripping. I'm gripping everything. That's not a great way to go into a date.   Talking through like, okay, what is it that my body is gripping onto? It's so much stress, so much pressure. Then we ended up having a great date, but I was able to name those things like, what is my body needing?   What am I feeling? Where am I now? That just comes from awareness, and it comes from practicing being present to what's happening in my body, in my nervous system and what do I need?   There's therapeutic touch, nurturing touch. There's obviously playful touch like tickling or just being flirtatious. Then there's sexual touch.   There's a wide range of what sexual expression and nice and gentle touch can look like that can open you up. I think getting out of your head and into your body and not being afraid of your body. I think as Christian women, we were raised with a real fear of our bodies and a real fear of pleasure.   I know I was feeling like the word pleasure was even a really dirty word. It wasn't something I should be thinking about. It wasn't something that I had permission to even explore because it had a real sense of negative connotation to it.   God's just really set me free from that because I'm realizing it's my design. There are countless pleasure zones all over my body by his good design, by his orchestration. He made my body.   There's not one part of my body he's ashamed of, and I don't need to be either. Realizing that God did make the female body with way more than double the capacity for pleasure than a male body has. That's a gift for us.   It's a gift for our emotions. It's a gift for our mental health. It's a gift for our creativity.   You said men get more energy from sex, but actually, it's like when a woman really let's go and she really let's go because we have a hard time letting go. That doesn't mean crazy. It just really means you turn off your brain, and you really receive.   There is a restart that happens. Usually, creativity does flow because it's the sense of different parts of your brain are reactivated and you are nourished. Sexuality was meant to be a creative act in procreation, but also in energetic movement through your body of what love creates.   Love multiplies. Love grows. Not being afraid of our bodies, not being afraid of feeling, but praising God, like the penner said for every tingle.   I'll say in terms of awareness in the bedroom, if you're having trouble feeling or you're having trouble feeling pleasure or reaching orgasm, there's three tips that I've heard that I really like is breath, breathing in that moment, coming back to your breath because a lot of times we can be intimate and still be in our heads. Our bodies are there, but our minds are somewhere else. We're thinking about the grocery list or thinking about why am I taking so long or is he having fun or do I look not good?   Do I not look good to him? Where our brains are stuck in a lot of different places and getting out of our head back into our body with breath. Slowing down, really conscious, slow breathing, movement, going back and forth, and then vocalization, like using a moan or a hum or a yes.   Those three things are often helping you get back in your body, helping bring your attention back to sensation and can enhance the moment through paying attention in those ways.   Laura Dugger: (28:24 - 28:59) Those are so good. The only one I would add, I'm sure you would incorporate this as well, is prayer. I've heard a wife tell me before that she will pray every time they come together, whether she's praying just in her mind, not even out loud with her husband, but just, Lord, help me experience orgasm or help us to enjoy this time or whatever the prayer is.   You also brought up playful touch then. Can you just unpack why play is so powerful as it relates to our sex life?   Francie Winslow: (29:01 - 30:36) Well, I think that we can get so serious in life and we can get so exhausted and overwhelmed and then sex can become a task, or we just are now stressed about it. For us, quite simply put, playfulness has just been an invitation to revitalize our connection and to remember that we don't have to take things so seriously. I think our playfulness has come through even just like silly text messages.   I say silly, but they're intimate, they're playful, they're between us. Little things that we've done, like you have certain names for certain positions and so you can speak in code and that can be a fun way to connect where nobody else knows what you're talking about, but you're sharing connection. Getting your heart rate up together, things like playing literally, like playing a sport, exercising together, having playful times together outside of the bedroom is so powerful.   Getting your heart rate up together is actually a real libido booster. If you go work out, you just feel this energy together in general or going on a walk, we like to do that. By the time you come back from your walk, if you've walked briskly, you feel this sense of connection and a little bit more drive.   You can even make games like, hey, whenever I wear this necklace, it's me giving you a little bedroom wink. We've done that where we have little signs to each other that, hey, I'm thinking about you, I'm so into you, see this necklace I'm wearing. There's just so many playful ways that you can connect that remind you, oh yeah, we're on each other's teams, we're for each other.   This is not a have to, this is a get to, and this is a special place just for us to really build the connection.   Laura Dugger: (30:37 - 30:52) One step further then with that play and movement, I've heard you talk about for females, nonlinear movement of our body. Can you share about how that, again, outside the bedroom can impact inside the bedroom?   Francie Winslow: (30:52 - 35:31) Yeah. I have a membership community called The Circle, and we talk about this a lot because it's a bit like rewiring, especially Christian women's minds to connect to their bodies in a genuine way. Our culture in general has raised us to not embrace the masculine but requires us to be masculine in a lot of ways, just with how what's required is getting stuff done, standing in line, standing in traffic.   It's very much task-oriented, get stuff done, stay busy. The female design is much more nonlinear. It's much more creative.   It's much more life-giving than just task and just to-do list all day. When we stay in that do, do, do, and go, go, go mode, we lose our ability to flow and to be playful as women. I know when I am in task mode all day, I feel rigid rather than open.   By God's design, the female body itself speaks of curviness. It speaks of receptivity and openness, but sometimes in our structured lives that we lead where we have to get stuff done, we close off that space through stress and through just this response of rigidity and overwhelm. Movement is a great way to loosen up, to open up to access playfulness as a woman.   I've heard people call it nonlinear movement, and I think that's great because literally you don't have to be a good dancer, but it's just begin moving. I've taught in this membership group that I have just practical ways. We practice and we laugh and we talk about how it's going, but it's really creating new neural pathways in our own brains, new habits, new ways of embodying our own selves in our lives that remind us of who we are and help us access a playfulness.   What that looks like for me is I can just be brushing my teeth, and I'll just do figure eights with my hips. That's just nonlinear movement, and it's just a way to move my body and be like, oh, yeah. It's like doing shoulder rolls.   You're like, oh, I didn't know I was so tense. I didn't know I was gripping. I didn't know my posture was all hunched over because I've just been tense all day, and our bodies are holding on to that tension.   Nonlinear movement is playful. It's also a way to release tension. It's also a way to remember, oh, yeah, I'm a woman, and I have hips, and it's fun to move.   I'm not even that great of a dancer. I don't feel super sexy when I move, but then I remember I can be playful, and it kind of unlocks another layer of our sensuality and our beauty and helps us remember that we are lovely and attractive and desirable and not just kind of to-do list on stairways walking around getting stuff done. Nonlinear movement can look like a lot of things.   I've spent my 39th year, I decided on my birthday, I'd been thinking, reading, praying a lot about it, but my 39th year, I decided I'm going to befriend my body this year. I did things that whole year, like nonlinear movement, like just cultivating pleasure in my body in a lot of different ways to really befriend and honor my body and call it good, like God called it, because I had lived for so long kind of at a distance from my body and afraid of my body and afraid of, honestly, femininity in a way because I didn't know how to grid that, and I didn't know what it looked like to be holy and to be integrated, to be holy and to be an alive sexual woman. It just kind of seemed like I needed to shut most of it off, and God's been doing a healing work in me for the last several years, and that's part of it, is just simple things like dancing in my room when nobody's looking, turning on music that doesn't have to have like a certain lyric or notion to it, but I just get to move, and there's something about moving our bodies where we get to really let go of a lot and remember the design that we have for creativity and beauty, and yeah, that's just a fun way to do it, but a little practical is trying figure eights while you're doing your toothbrushing or stirring your spaghetti.   A funny one that makes me laugh and makes everybody laugh when I have them do it is spelling your name with your hips, and so you just realize, oh, oh my gosh, you know, you're moving your hips in all sorts of directions, but by the time you finish, you feel more open, and you feel more alive and awake in your body, and I think, I know I'll speak for me, I feel many days if I'm not intentional very unalive in my body because I just am exhausted, but it's those intentional places of befriending our bodies, paying attention, and honoring our beautiful bodies allows us to enjoy it more, being a woman, being a wife, being present, and it sure does make it a lot more fun to participate in it rather than just feel like life is happening to us all the time.   Laura Dugger: (35:32 - 35:59) Okay, and then speaking of that, life happening to us all the time, we talked about maybe newlyweds or new parents, but as we transition into middle age, maybe we're parenting older children at that point, or we're assisting with aging parents, or facing demands with work or our health. How can we realistically still choose to prioritize connection right in the middle of busy?   Francie Winslow: (35:59 - 36:01) Yeah, you mean with our spouses?   Laura Dugger: (36:02 - 36:02) Yes.   Francie Winslow: (36:02 - 41:05) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think it, for us, I'll say it comes from really just seeing it as a priority. It's one of our biggest rocks, you know, like when you have a jar, and you have rocks, and you only have so much room, you have to figure out what are your biggest rocks, and intimacy together is for sure one of our biggest rocks because we see what we've called, I've called forever the ripple effect of sex, that there is a ripple effect that comes from intimacy and connection, I think by God's design, and it's the same with our connection with God, that there is a ripple effect that comes from our connection with God. When we're connected and we're growing with God, other things benefit, right?   We see it in our ability to show up as parents, and at work, we see the ripple effect of intimacy, and I'll say the same thing mirrors in marriage, that there is a profound ripple effect from sexual intimacy specifically, and there's other forms of intimacy in marriage that are really important, but sexual intimacy is the only type of intimacy that is shared in marriage alone, and so you can have deep friendships, and partnerships, and ministry, and prayer teams, and, you know, small group leaders meetings, and you can have growth, and closeness with a lot of types of people and groups, but sexual intimacy is the full giving of yourself, naked, unashamed, fully to another, and it's a real place of vulnerability, and I think as we're aging, as I'm beginning perimenopause, as we have almost, we're launching our first kids into college, we've got a bunch of special needs younger kids, what I'm realizing is I don't just need to have sex because it's good for our marriage, we need it because it's good for us. We really need it for our own nervous systems.   We need it for comfort, and for grief, and for trauma processing, and for the bonding of us together, because we're clinging to each other as seasons change, and as dark seasons are on us, it's almost like this refuge that God has given us, and so I think seeing sexual intimacy as a really deep place of provision, not just, oh, it's something we need to do, like exercising, because it's good for us. It is, but there is a deeper invitation to the meaning, and the power of oneness, and union, which is, again, that reflection of our union with God, and it's a gift for our bodies, our nervous systems, in changing seasons as well.   It's a real place of connection that we need, and so I think in terms of prioritizing it, it's one of our big rocks, and so this point, 20 years in, it's not unusual for us to have intimacy many times every day of the week. I guess I just say that as our marriage is 20 years in, and it's more deep, and more beautiful, and more pleasurable, and more meaningful than ever, and in my changing body, in our tiredness, I feel more confident, and more awake to my body than ever, and I love that, that I feel more confident than I did when I was 20, right? I feel more pleasure, because we know each other more, and we've leaned in to learn each other, and we've wept together, and we've grieved together, and we've gotten lost together, like we've had the highs and the lows, and that's, I think I want to cast that out as vision for young marriages, like it's worth it to keep growing, it's worth it to lean in, it's worth it to know each other, and to continue to press on together, because there's deep riches in that intimacy, and for friends who are in the older years, I'm walking with women right now who've been married 35 years, and they're waking up to their best marriage ever, because they're waking up to their bodies, and they might be 60 years old, but they're finally confronting the shame that's held back, they're finally confronting the lies about pleasure, and about sex being for a man only, and they're realizing that they have an entire body to get to know, and to share in marriage, and it's like a whole new territory that they're encountering, and there's freedom and healing happening, because they've had to have conversations that are hard, but actually unearth things that need to be healed, and I think that's the other bit of sexual intimacy that doesn't often get talked about, is that sexual intimacy is so intimate, it does not occur without the heart being present, and so if hard things come up in sex, it's usually because hard things need to come up, and vulnerability and intimacy requires, intimacy requires vulnerability, and that vulnerability is the space for the hard things to come up, and then in the presence of God, through prayer, through love, you address those, it might be hard, it might be painful, and then there's space to say, hey, let's work through that, let's lean in, let's keep loving each other, find help, and it continues to grow the marriage deeper, and so that's what I've found in our marriage, and with women I'm walking with, is that it's not always an easy uphill, you know, like ascent, but it's highs and lows, but over time, throughout the seasons, prioritizing oneness, prioritizing sexual communication, prioritizing time together, to practice pleasure, getting to know each other, those are the spaces where actually I've seen God do a lot of healing.   Laura Dugger: (41:07 - 42:40) I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit thesavvysauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichson from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God-given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities, and we are thrilled with the final product, so I hope you check it out. There you're going to find all of our podcasts, now with show notes and transcriptions listed, a scrapbook of various previous guests, and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living.   You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax-deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. So, make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com.   Well, and even with you sharing how often you're connecting, that requires saying no to some other, probably sometimes good things, too.   Are there any practical examples you have, again, of what you and Wyatt have not prioritized in order to give this time and space?   Francie Winslow: (42:41 - 45:06) Yeah, I mean, I don't want to put ourselves on a pedestal or sound so radical, but we really try to limit screen time and phones a lot. I would say my husband is very radical with this. He really is never on his phone and makes it a point to not be, and I appreciate that in the way he leads in our family.   I feel like I'm doing stuff that needs to be done on my phone, and I can easily get pulled into scrolling, but that's been a big thing we say no to. We just really don't do that in our beds. We don't bring it into our bedrooms.   We don't, because we just see that it can easily be like it just pulls us away from each other, and so that's kind of a non-thing, which I think is a big culture shifter that phone is not a part of our marriage or our time in the evenings. And yeah, with a lot of kids, we definitely have to prioritize. We do hotel dates quite frequently, which I can't remember if I've talked to you about or not, but that's been a huge gift in busy seasons of parenting.   We scoot away to a local hotel for just a day, not even an overnight. We'll do like a long date, like maybe a four-hour stretch, and what that really gives us in terms of not just quantity, because it's not as much quantity, it's the quality of connection that we found, and being in a hotel room for four hours or so, we really get to let go and focus. And so, I think that that's a big part of it is, oh, it's not just about like checking the box, but it's really letting go together and learning.   And those have been some of the hours we've spent together. It's like learning what feels good, learning how to linger with each other, learning how to go slow and not be rushed, learning how to communicate and learning how to care for one another. We'll do like king treatment or queen treatment, where you spend 20 minutes on one person, and then the other person gets 20 minutes, and you take turns, and it's just this exchange of care that doesn't happen in a busy life.   But we found that sneaking away to do that every couple of weeks has been a real treat to figure out how to prioritize. But yeah, definitely saying no to... And I mean, the truth is, it doesn't take that long to connect.   So, it's not like you have to say no to massive things, but I think it's saying yes to putting your energy towards each other and not spending your energy completely on every other thing except your marriage.   Laura Dugger: (45:07 - 45:25) Okay, well said. And maybe somebody's hearing this and they're not there right now. So, regardless of whatever season of marriage they're in, how can they revive a sex life that's been asleep or has become complacent?   Francie Winslow: (45:25 - 46:44) Yeah. Well, I think if it's a place where you are desiring and you are the one desiring, I think it's saying, hey, I really desire connection. What would it look like if we tried this again, if we leaned in?   And if hopefully there's a sense of, yeah, I miss you too. I miss us too. And if not, it's a space where you can grow in your own understanding of your body, how your body works, and you can continue to learn how your spouse's body works and try to love them even without making a big plan, but just showing up more skills or showing up with more investment at times can communicate, hey, I'm showing up with a little bit more knowledge and I'm enjoying it more.   Because I think when you learn a little bit more, you can receive more, you can be more present. And sometimes just working on you and your mindset can have a trickle-down effect. But I think definitely an invitation to say, hey, we're busy and I value you and I value us and I just want more connection.   What does that look like? Yeah, I think it definitely takes two. It takes two to really grow, to be honest.   And so, I think it can be a place where even that can be a hard conversation that has the potential to unearth, hey, are we too busy? It does require a sense of investment. And sometimes that can require conversations.   Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 46:56) Francie, also, you are a wealth of knowledge. You've studied this topic for years; you've brought it before the Lord. So, what can you share with us that you've learned specifically about orgasm?   Francie Winslow: (46:57 - 50:30) So, orgasm for anybody who is brand new is simply like a fast contraction of your muscles in your pelvic floor and around the nerve endings that are linked to pleasure sensors in your brain. And so, when those contract really fast, it feels like a whoosh or a powerful punch of pleasure, and it brings tingles and contractions, and it feels great. So, people come to me a lot.   They're like, I can't have an orgasm. And so one of the biggest keys to having an orgasm, again, is understanding your body and not expecting your body to work like a man's body, not expecting it to just automatically work by penetration, which is a lot of times what men think is if you just have intercourse, you should have an orgasm. But a woman's body is much more intricate, and she has a clitoral structure kind of hidden behind her external anatomy.   So, you can't see it all, all the time. I do have one here. I have other models, but this is a clitoris.   And so, this is hidden behind your outside vaginal tissues. And so, but this is all pleasure anatomy. And so, your clitoris has over 10,000 nerve endings and that is over double what a man's penis has.   We're maybe afraid to touch our bodies, but this is good in God's design, and it is that the clitoris is stimulated. And so, it can be manually, you can touch it, your husband can touch it. Sometimes before sex, you can have orgasms or even during, definitely during, but that comes with stimulation.   And so I think sometimes women think I just, it should happen automatically, but it happens through blood flow to your tissues, to your whole body really, because your whole body becomes kind of alive with pleasure, but the blood flow allows engorgement of all of this tissue, which allows it to feel better and allows it to feel pleasure. And so, a clitoris, a clitoral orgasm is one type of orgasms, but there's lots of types of orgasms that your body can experience with also a female superpower. And it happens when we're able to let go and we're able to actually feel, which comes back to our earlier conversation of being awake in our bodies and aware of sensation and connected to feeling in our body and connected to awareness.   And so, orgasm is a beautiful gift from God. There's many types of orgasms. Women can have multiple orgasms.   That means can peak over and over and over again, not just once, but the bottom line is when God created, he created male and female, but he created woman last. And it seems like when you look at it metaphorically, that woman is like the exclamation point of beauty and pleasure. She was like the final, yes, she has double the amount of pleasure capacity than a man does.   And I think it's because it delights God that women are fully alive in their bodies. And so, I do have a pleasure masterclass on my website because it took me and wound up and afraid of my own body, but this is God's design and he's not afraid or ashamed of our bodies. And the more we understand how God designed our bodies, the more we can really celebrate his design.   And to me, that's worshipful. And it's honoring to him as our creator, because he made us wonderfully, right? And the Psalm says that my soul knows well, and it's like this catching up.   He made us wonderfully. Do we believe it? And part of is education and understanding that our bodies are good.   So, orgasm is a great gift, definitely one worth exploring and learning.   Laura Dugger: (50:31 - 50:41) It's so wonderful, Francie. And are there any other practical ways that we can maximize pleasure in our marriage, both for husbands or wives?   Francie Winslow: (50:43 - 53:59) Yeah, I think this sounds a little bit silly, but practicing pleasure is a real thing. We often feel like I should just know how to do it. It should just work, but it takes communication and it takes time.   And going back to awareness, it takes us being able to understand our bodies. And so, I know the pinners recommend this as well. It might push some people's buttons, but it's exploring your own body.   You have to know your body to share it well. It's a really awkward and uncomfortable thing to not know what's down there and then supposed to be giving it away to your husband. That's I think a sin against ourselves, to be honest, because we are essentially violating ourselves if we don't even have connection to ourselves.   And then we're trying to give it away and expecting our bodies to express or experience something. We have to be embodied, connected to loving, blessing, and agreeing with the fact that our bodies are good. And that doesn't happen unless we know our bodies.   And so, I would say that the pivotal thing for me and many women, and it might make people feel uncomfortable, is you must know your body. You must experience your body. You must believe it's good.   And in order to be able to share it genuinely without shame, because shame is the biggest pleasure killer. And shame is straight from hell, straight from the enemy in the garden that they were originally naked and unashamed. And in comes the deceiver and the accuser of God's children.   And they suddenly become aware of their nakedness and covered in shame and they start hiding. And so, God has an invitation to us to release shame in our sexuality as we bring our sexuality into his light, into the light of his word, into his presence. And part of that is for me, it was definitely realizing my body is good.   So, spending time with your own body, getting to know what feels good for the sake of being able to share it with your husband is a big breakthrough point for a lot of women. And even confronting like, oh, when I'm alone with my body, I actually feel so much shame. Talk to God about that.   God, do you feel ashamed of my body? Is it a shame that I'm sitting here with my body? Can I look at my body in the mirror and actually say, thank you, God, for this beautiful body?   Can I take a mirror down there and explore my body and have joy rather than shame? And if we can't have joy and if we only have shame, that's okay. That's just an invitation to healing.   And so that's what I mean when I say sexuality is also this invitation to healing because shame is so tightly wound around the conversation and shame is the opposite of what Christ died for. He died that we would be free and that it's not this selfish freedom. It's this life-giving freedom where love can really be shared and expressed.   So, I would say that the number one thing is that women love and know their bodies and then can share them from that place of sharing a gift that they have actually received first. Because until we receive the gift, it's an awkward thing to try to give it away. And I think our husbands are hopefully wanting and willing to learn too.   And so, it can be a joint effort that we learn about our bodies together, that we discover our bodies together, learn how to communicate and learn how to love each other well in a place of joy and care. Because that, I think, is a beautiful space of worship to God.   Laura Dugger: (54:01 - 54:43) And just to echo what you said, I think it was Dr. Jennifer Kanzen who shared the same sentiment of women, it's really hard to see your private parts. So, get a handheld mirror and look and see what every part is and be aware on your body. I also want to make sure people aren't hearing what you're not saying.   And so, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I don't hear you saying, be selfish and masturbate to take away time from you and your spouse being together. You're saying, learn your body and your parts so that you and or be together with your spouse while you're doing this so that you can both experience greater pleasure. Is that right?   Francie Winslow: (54:43 - 56:15) Exactly. But what I'm not saying is satisfy yourself apart from your husband and then don't ever connect. Nobody wants that.   That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about building sexual intimacy in your marriage and sexual healing in your journey as a woman who wants to be integrated. And so, yeah, I think there could be a whole conversation on this because it can be a hot button.   And I'm glad you're willing to go there because we need honesty. We need our daughters to be able to have this sort of conversation with us and not feel like there's things that we just need to do in secret. Because I think anything you feel like I have to have this as a secret, that's also like, ah, like, let's talk about it.   And so, what I call self-cultivation is not a secret. And it's something you share with your spouse. And it's something that, hey, I want to get to know my body.   And that's actually in my journey. My husband was like, hey, you need to get to know your body. I bless you to like have some alone time because you're so wound up in shame.   You don't even know. You can't even feel. And so, it really, it was rooted in our experience as him commissioning me basically to befriend my body.   And I think that that's, it's a different paradigm, but I appreciate the many sex therapists who are believers that agree with that menu, that idea of you have to experiment and explore to know how to genuinely articulate what you want rather than just laying there and assuming your husband can read your mind. And so, it's, again, a place of communication and saying, hey, this is where I'm at. Is this okay?   What does this look like for us? And this is my desire is intimacy and connection with you.   Laura Dugger: (56:16 - 56:41) And I love how you are explaining how you invite the Lord into that process for every person to ask him, what do you have for me? What do you want me to learn? What do you want to reveal to me about sex?   And none of us want to miss out on any good gift that he has to offer. So, France, you could continue teaching us and you have so many resources. Can you just share where you would direct us to go online after this chat?   Francie Winslow: (56:42 - 57:19) Sure. Yeah. Well, I have several courses and growth guides on my website.   So, franciewinslow.com and just spaces. If you wanted to have these conversations with your husband or maybe just wanted to grow on your own. And if you're looking for conversations exactly like we're having today, ongoing, I have a community membership group that we meet monthly on zoom to literally have conversations like this that are so life-giving because we're all on a journey and it's fun to be able to talk about places that we've had barriers and how we're growing.   And that's called the circle. So, I have that as well. So, lots of resources and ways to plug in and keep growing.   Laura Dugger: (57:20 - 57:36) Wonderful. We'll add the links in the show notes for today's episode. And Francie, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Francie Winslow: (57:37 - 58:14) Well, it's not that fancy and it's going to sound extremely simple, but it's take a walk without your phone every day. It's part of that awareness and that coming back home to God who is in us with us all the time. And those simple deep breaths, remembering that we have him in us.   And a lot of times it's just that simple reminder of a minute unplugged in God's creation that helps me to kind of come back home to him and recenter to be filled up for all that comes my way. So, I'm a big fan of unplugging. That's so good.   Laura Dugger: (58:14 - 58:42) And it's just always such a joy to get to spend time with you. And God has given you these enormous gifts of teaching and this ability to synthesize knowledge from so many places and then make it beneficial and applicable for all of us as it relates to sexual intimacy in view of what God has for us in marriage. So, thank you, Francie, for sharing all this goodness today and thank you for being my returning guest.   Francie Winslow: (58:42 - 58:43) Absolutely. Thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: (58:45 - 1:01:59) One more thing before you go.   Have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you.   But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own.   So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can

Part of the WinShape Camps Drive-In Track series–short daily audio experiences created for Campers and families on their way to camp. Camp mornings can feel rushed–breakfast on the go, bags packed, everyone trying to get out the door. These quick Drive-In Tracks are designed to meet you right there, helping Campers start the day with excitement, meaningful truth, and conversations that can continue long after camp ends. In this episode, you'll join Tiff and Aaron on the way to camp as they celebrate all your Camper has experienced this week and remind them of the truths they can carry with them long after camp comes to an end. Today, we're looking back on everything we've learned together this week: Today's Truths:Do I have what it takes? God does not make mistakes.Can I face the unknown? With God, I'm not alone.Who could love the real me? God does–personally.How should I live my life? Step by step, follow Christ. -- Interested in learning more about WinShape Camps for Communities? Click here to view all of our day camps locations. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Part of the WinShape Camps Drive-In Track series–short daily audio experiences created for Campers and families on their way to camp. Camp mornings can feel rushed–breakfast on the go, bags packed, everyone trying to get out the door. These quick Drive-In Tracks are designed to meet you right there, helping Campers start the day with excitement, meaningful truth, and conversations that can continue long after camp ends. In this episode, you'll join Tiff and Aaron on the way to camp as they reflect on what your Camper has learned so far and challenge them to take their next steps in following Jesus. We'll also be introducing our Today's Truth: How should I live my life? Step by step, follow Christ. -- Interested in learning more about WinShape Camps for Communities? Click here to view all of our day camps locations. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Part of the WinShape Camps Drive-In Track series–short daily audio experiences created for Campers and families on their way to camp. Camp mornings can feel rushed–breakfast on the go, bags packed, everyone trying to get out the door. These quick Drive-In Tracks are designed to meet you right there, helping Campers start the day with excitement, meaningful truth, and conversations that can continue long after camp ends. In this episode, you'll join Tiff and Aaron on the way to camp as they encourage your Camper to show up as their true self and remind them that they are fully known and deeply loved by God. We'll also be introducing our Today's Truth: Who could love the real me? God does—personally. -- Interested in learning more about WinShape Camps for Communities? Click here to view all of our day camps locations. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Part of the WinShape Camps Drive-In Track series–short daily audio experiences created for Campers and families on their way to camp. Camp mornings can feel rushed–breakfast on the go, bags packed, everyone trying to get out the door. These quick Drive-In Tracks are designed to meet you right there, helping Campers start the day with excitement, meaningful truth, and conversations that can continue long after camp ends. Today, join Tiff and Aaron as they look back on everything we learned yesterday and remind Campers that no matter what lies ahead, they never have to face it alone. Today's Truth: Can I face the unknown? With God, I'm not alone. -- Interested in learning more about WinShape Camps for Communities? Click here to view all of our day camps locations. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Part of the WinShape Camps Drive-In Track series—short audio experiences for families to listen to on their way to camp. — Camp mornings can feel rushed—breakfast on the go, bags packed, everyone trying to get out the door. These short daily Drive-In Tracks are designed to meet you right there! Each day offers a short audio experience to encourage your Camper, introduce a meaningful truth, and spark conversations that can continue long after the camp day ends. In this episode, you'll join Tiff and Aaron on the way to camp as they welcome your Camper, introduce this summer's theme—Ascend—and help Campers get ready for the adventure that lies ahead. We'll also be introducing our Today's Truth: Do I have what it takes? God does not make mistakes. -- Interested in learning more about WinShape Camps for Communities? Click here to view all of our day camps locations.   Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Part of the WinShape Camps Drive-In Track series—special audio experiences created for parents, guardians, grandparents, and loved ones after Camper drop-off. — Dropping your Camper off at Overnight Camp is a big moment–filled with excitement, anticipation, and maybe even a few butterflies. This special Drive-Out Track is designed just for you, offering encouragement, a few helpful reminders, and a glimpse into the incredible week ahead. Parents, as you make your way home, take a moment to tune in for a glimpse into this summer's theme–Ascend–and a special thank-you from our team. -- Interested in learning more about WinShape Camps for Boys & Girls? Click here to view all of our overnight camp locations. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Part of the WinShape Camps Drive-In Track series–audio experiences created for Campers and families on their way to camp. The drive to Overnight Camp is filled with excitement, anticipation, and maybe even a few butterflies—for both Campers and parents. Whether this is your Camper's very first week away or a summer tradition they've been counting down to, this Drive-In Track is designed to help your family start the journey with encouragement, laughter, and truth. You'll join Ranger Stu, Amy, and Speedy on the way to camp as they welcome your Camper, build excitement for the adventure ahead, and remind them that God has something special in store this week. Together, you'll get a glimpse into this summer's theme – Ascend – and be encouraged to lift your eyes, trust God with what lies ahead, and step confidently into all He has prepared. “I lift up my eyes to the mountains—where does my help come from? My help comes from the Lord, the Maker of heaven and earth.” – Psalm 121:1-2 -- Interested in learning more about WinShape Camps for Boys & Girls? Click here to view all of our overnight camp locations. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode of Carpool Conversations, Amy and Sara sit down with Taylor Shannon from ESP (Extra Special People) to talk about what it really means to help kids with disabilities experience belonging. Taylor shares how ESP creates relationship-centered spaces where individuals with disabilities and their families are known, valued, and included, and offers practical encouragement for parents who want to raise compassionate, confident kids who see and celebrate others well. Together, they discuss how to respond when kids ask awkward questions in public, simple ways families can build genuine friendships within the disability community, and what parents should look for when choosing inclusive environments like summer camps. Taylor also speaks directly to parents navigating a new diagnosis or difficult season, reminding them that they are not alone and that their child's value has never changed. Whether your family has firsthand experience with disability or you simply want to help your kids grow in empathy and kindness, this conversation is full of insights, wisdom, and hope. Resources: Website: Extra Special People "Just Ask!: Be Different, Be Brave, Be You" by Sonia Sotomayor "When Charlie Met Emma" by Amy Webb "Dreams Come True" by Lia Johnson "The Joy Exchange" by Laura Hope Whitaker -- Question of the Week: If someone in your class or friend group learns or moves differently, what are some ways you can be a good friend to them? -- Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara Jones Guest: Taylor Shannon Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps   Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode of Carpool Conversations, Amy and Marissa sit down with Beth Guckenberger – co-founder of Back2Back Ministries, author, speaker, and mom – to talk about a parenting challenge many families face – helping kids process difficult, confusing, and sometimes complicated news. So how do parents talk honestly about hard things without overwhelming or frightening their kids? Drawing from her experience as a missionary, parent, and ministry leader, Beth shares practical, faith-filled wisdom for navigating tough conversations with confidence and compassion. Together, they discuss how to discern what to share (and what not to share), signs your child may be struggling even when they aren't saying much, simple ways to create safe spaces for emotional processing, and how families can remain rooted in hope when the world feels heavy. If you've ever wondered how to help your kids make sense of complicated news while pointing them back to God's truth, this conversation will equip and encourage you. -- BacktoBack Ministries Trauma Free World Resources Book: Presence Matters by Beth Guckenberger -- Question of the Week: When you hear something bad in the news or in your life, what questions pop into your head? -- Hosts: Amy Lowe and Marissa Ray Guest: Beth Guckenberger Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode of Carpool Conversations, Amy and Marissa sit down with author, speaker, and podcast host Tara Sun to talk about something every parent feels but rarely escapes—overwhelm. Between packed schedules, constant noise, and the pressure to “do it all,” finding peace can feel out of reach. Drawing from her book Overbooked and Overwhelmed, Tara shares her personal story of hitting a turning point that revealed just how disconnected she had become—from God, from her purpose, and even from the present moments of motherhood. With honesty and encouragement, she reminds parents that peace isn't found in perfect systems or better time management, but in a deeper awareness of God's presence in the middle of everyday chaos. Together, they explore what it looks like to shift your mindset, slow down internally (even when life doesn't), and reconnect with what truly matters. Tara offers practical, grace-filled strategies for navigating overstimulation, cultivating self-awareness, and breaking free from the cycle of constant busyness. If you're feeling stretched thin, mentally exhausted, or just longing for a little more calm in your parenting journey, this conversation will meet you right where you are—and point you toward lasting peace. Resources: Overbooked & Overwhelmed by Tara Sun Surrender your Story by Tara Sun Podcast: Truth Talks with Tara -- Question of the Week: What makes you feel overwhelmed? What are some things you can do when you feel that way?  -- Hosts: Amy Lowe & Marissa Ray Guest: Tara Sun Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode, Amy and Sara sit down with author and mom of four, Amber Lia, to talk honestly about something many parents wrestle with but rarely say out loud—anger. Drawing from her new book, Untriggered: 60 Days of Transformation for Moms Who Struggle with Anger, Amber shares her own story with refreshing vulnerability and offers practical, grace-filled tools for the moments when frustration rises. Together, they explore how anger shows up in parenting, recognizing the difference between righteous anger and destructive frustration, and what it looks like to grow in patience even on the hardest days. Amber also unpacks simple, intentional strategies that help moms pause, reset, and respond with gentleness—reminding every parent that change is possible. Whatever season you are in, this conversation will encourage you to breathe deeply, release shame, and take meaningful steps toward transformation. -- Book: Untriggered: 60 Days of Transformation for Moms Who Struggle with Anger Meet our Guest: Amber Lia Book: Triggers: Exchanging Parents' Angry Reactions for Gentle Biblical Responses -- Question of the Week: When have you recently noticed that I was angry, and how did it make you feel? -- Hosts: Amy Lowe and Sara Jones Guest: Amber Lia Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

From big questions to big imaginations, every child has a unique spark of creativity worth noticing and nurturing. In this episode of Carpool Conversations, Emily and Marissa sit down with Travis Hawkins, Manager of the Creative Services team at WinShape Camps to talk about what it looks like to nurture creativity and curiosity in our kids. Together, they explore how creativity reflects the heart of our Creator, how every child may express their creativity differently, and how parents can encourage it in simple, meaningful ways. Whether your child loves to build, imagine, ask questions, make music, or paint, this conversation will encourage you to see creativity as a gift from God worth noticing and nurturing. Plus, Travis shares practical ideas for helping kids grow in curiosity, confidence, and wonder. -- -- Question of the Week: In what ways do you think God made you creative? -- Hosts: Emily Alters & Marissa Ray Guest: Travis Hawkins Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Kids experience a lot of emotions—and sometimes those feelings can change by the minute. As parents, it can be hard to know how to help our kids understand what they're feeling and express themselves in healthy ways.  In this episode we sit down with author, speaker, and family coach Dr. Josh Straub to talk about why emotional awareness matters and how parents can create space for meaningful conversations about feelings. Josh and his wife, Christi, have dedicated their work to helping families grow in emotional intelligence and healthy relationships. Together, they've written a children's book series designed to help kids name and navigate their emotions. In this conversation, they discuss why helping kids identify their feelings is such an important part of spiritual and emotional growth, how simple tools can help kids express what they're feeling, and how parents can guide their children to invite God into every emotion—from anger and worry to joy and gratitude. If you've ever wondered how to help your child talk about big emotions—or how to respond with empathy when feelings run high—this episode offers practical encouragement and simple ways to start meaningful, faith-centered conversations at home. -- Meet our guest: Josh Straub Book: What Am I Feeling - by Dr. Josh Straub & Christi Straub Book: What Do I Do With Anger? Book: What Do I Do With Worry? Famous at Home Podcast -- Question of the Week: What is one feeling to describe how you felt today? Why? -- Hosts: Sara Jones & Marissa Ray Guest: Josh Straub Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Parenting 0-18 With an Eternal Perspective: An Interview with Jessica Smartt (Episode 286)   Hebrews 12:11 NIV “No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it"   *Transcription Below*   Jessica Smartt is the author of Come On Home, Memory-Making Mom and Let Them Be Kids. She graduated college with an English degree, a religion minor and a hankering to pour into kids. After teaching middle school literature for five years, she was promoted to her current position and dream job: wife, homeschooling mom, author, and Professional Encourager of Intentional Moms. She lives in sunny North Carolina on a family farm with horses, chickens, and an ever-increasing number of beloved cats. She and her husband, Todd, have three beautiful children. She loves to energize everyday moms to save childhood and build close-knit families. Jessica's favorites include: bike rides, spinach quiche, a clean kitchen, being warm, national parks, and food that anyone else made. Connect with Jessica through Instagram or her website.   Thank you to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Questions and Topics We Cover: What questions can we ask ourselves as mothers to take inventory and get real about our capacity, health, and gifts? How can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be and we do too? Will you share a handful of your other favorite practical tips for building a strong family that we haven't covered yet?   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: Making Family Memories with Jessica Smartt   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:14)   Laura Dugger: (0:15 - 1:23) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.   My returning guest for today is Jessica Smartt. She has authored another brilliant book entitled, Come On Home: A Grace-Filled Guide to Raising a Family Who Loves (and Likes) Each Othe. You're not going to want to miss a minute of this episode because she answers every question with kindness and eternal wisdom, yet she still manages to share plenty of fun ideas and applicable tips.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jessica.   Jessica Smartt: (1:25 - 1:28)  Thanks so, much for having me. I'm excited about our conversation.   Laura Dugger: (1:29 - 1:44) Well, I've been looking so, forward to this, and it's been a few years since you were a guest on The Savvy Sauce, so, as you're looking back, can you just walk us through how your motherhood experience has changed from the early days to now currently?   Jessica Smartt: (1:46 - 3:36) Yeah, it has changed so, much, and I actually was thinking about this just on my own. God is so, good, and I don't know if everyone's experience is kind of like this. I look around and see very high-functioning young mothers, so, I'm thinking maybe not, but I just feel like those first couple years were such a struggle with a lot of mental illness and just anxiety, and probably that led into depression, too, and just feeling really overwhelmed. I do feel like a lot of it was sleep deprivation, which is a literal torture technique that armies use, so, I think just caring for my body better has actually been a huge thing, but also just God is just so, kind, and I think I mentioned in the book of just really early on having this moment where I thought I'm not any good to anybody, and I didn't fast-forward to see any of this, right?  I didn't know how it was going to end. I just knew I felt terrible, and I couldn't function and overcome with anxiety, and everything was blurry and overwhelming, and so, to then fast-forward and see personally in my own life the rewards of my kids are doing well, and I like being a mom a lot, and professionally that I'm even writing about it is stunning, so, it's a real redemption story to me, and just proof that also God uses those pits because it was out of that that I was able to actually gain traction even on my blog sharing about my personal experience and loss and weakness. God used that, so, I'm really grateful.   Laura Dugger: (3:36 - 3:45) That's incredible to get just a little picture of that journey, and can you update us with your kids' ages now as of today?   Jessica Smartt: (3:45 - 3:59) Yes, so, I have a 16-year-old boy. Last week we were visiting college, and that is very weird, and then a 14-year-old boy and an 11-year-old daughter.   Laura Dugger: (4:00 - 4:19) Okay, wonderful. So, regardless of what phase we're in as parents, do you have any recommendations for questions that we can begin to ask ourselves so that we can take inventory and get real about our capacity and our health and our gifts?   Jessica Smartt: (4:20 - 7:00) Right, yes, so, in Come on Home, that's kind of how I kick it off because I say, you know, you can't have the family that if in order to have the family you want or the home you want, you have to be honest about what you actually have and what you're starting with, and so, part of that is taking inventory of yourself and your life, and that's not something we often stop to do in the chaos and busyness, so, I asked what your capacity is and really just trying to help mom just think through preaching to myself here, like all the things that are on our plate, and is there something on our plate that the Lord maybe is not calling us to or that doesn't correlate and match to what our really core values are in life, and those are hard questions to ask, but they actually bring a lot of relief to just be honest with yourself about what's happening in your life and coming before the Lord and saying, you know, I'd literally say, like, make a list of all the things that you're doing and look at it and see if you should take any off, and the list is, you know, stunningly long for a lot of us, but yeah, so, that's just capacity, just kind of thinking through where we are and what we actually have the bandwidth to do, and then I talk about health and actually asking, like, your husband, if you're married, you know, how would you like me to care for myself better? What's one thing that you like when I do? And a lot of times I think we're really surprised when we hear the things they appreciate or what they'd like us to do, and they might just be giving us a really wonderful gift to go invest in an area in our life that we've been overlooking. So, and then gifts, that's a really fun one, too, because I'm not you and you're not me, and we're not the listeners, but God has uniquely equipped all of us to be the mom and the homemaker, you know, in our particular callings.   So, saying, like, are you a good organizer? Are you, you know, the fun mom, right, that I wish I was and I'm not? Are you, you know, the adventurer mom? Are you the crafty mom? You know, God has given, do you cook well and, you know, enjoy that? And everybody has a gift, that you're, whether you're, you know, a soft place to land for your kids and a good listener, or you're, you know, more drill sergeant-y, like those firstborns tend to be, and that is me, so, that's why I can say that. But just thinking about, like, what skills and gifts did God give me to lead my family well? And so, that was just kind of the ground-tilling up work before you think through, like, how can we build the family that we really want with the life that we actually have and the person we really are?   Laura Dugger: (7:01 - 8:14) And I love, that was one of the aspects of the book that I just appreciated. You sprinkle all these insightful questions throughout, and it is really great to reflect on those with the Lord or with the journal or in conversation, but you're encouraging us repeatedly to get a long-term vision of this parenting journey. And so, it makes me think, my husband works with Chick-fil-A, and oftentimes he's encouraged to be careful not to just get caught up working in the business, but to pull back and work on the business, and it's actually better for everybody. And I just think as parents, we need that same reminder to kind of lift up our eyes, get a different view, and get above these urgent, incessant needs of today and look at where we're going. And I think the Bible speaks a lot to that with being prudent. And you challenge us with that long-term view to actually take an eternal view in parenting, which is inevitably going to impact how we steward our time and our decision making. So, can you speak to both of those?   Jessica Smartt: (8:16 - 10:23) Yeah, I mean, the eternal, the perspective, I think I said, you know, there's the Bible verse about you reap what you sow, and we think of it as like a cautionary warning. And it is, but it's also just a true statement of how life works, meaning what you invest in, and what you spend your time in, what you care about, what the things you're actually doing is where you're going to see growth. And so, if I am investing in my home, I'm going to see fruit in there. Now, of course, it's not a one-to-one, it's not a slot machine. So, you know, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like. And God is so, good to cover up even over the areas that we've done a bad job in. But in general, you can't expect to grow cucumbers if you've been planting tomatoes. Like what you've been planting in the ground is what's going to grow up. And so, that's just like, even though it's kind of like fancy wordy language, it's always just a good reminder to me to think like, what am I actually spending my time doing?   I want a family that, like I was a recipient of, that's warm and inviting and you want to be around. And in order to get that, like you have to plant it. And so, that's a lot of being present as a mom and which is so, hard, very hard. But I just wanted to not lay a burden on moms, but really just encourage them like, do those things that are going to reap the life you actually want in the long term.  And of course, you mentioned the word eternity, that's planning, building disciples. And so, that is a very long road. You know, you're not going to always see the fruit of that, you know, immediately. But keeping our eye on, you know, I want to raise kids that are living out the calling that God has placed on their lives and are going out into this world to be truth and light. Like, oh my goodness, so, many hard, boring conversations that you have to have, but you have to, like that's, that's part of the equation.   Laura Dugger: (10:26 - 11:35) I think that even that piece is with discipline too, which is one of my least favorite parts of parenting. I don't know if others relate to that, but a verse that I find so, encouraging is Hebrews 12:11, that "no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful later on. However, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." And so, I love that encouragement you're giving to a parent for the long view, and you bring up your family of origin. You write so much about this gratitude you have for your parents and something you wrote really stuck with me where you say someone was always home, both physically and metaphorically, someone was paying attention. So, Jessica, what caution do you want to share with any parents today who may be tempted to let go a little too early, a little too soon and too young, whether that's with technology or even just being physically present?   Jessica Smartt: (11:36 - 14:25) I think it's just so, important for moms and dads to receive their instructions, not from the world, but from the Lord, because the culture right now is okaying and even encouraging parenting that is not godly parenting. We have so many distractions and we are pulled towards our phones, towards our own personal growth and flourishing, which is okay. You know, of course we want us to be healthy as we just mentioned, but at the expense of the kids that God has put in our lives, that is what, that is the messaging you're going to receive from the world. If you're hanging out with people who do not have a biblical worldview, that is going to be how they're spending their time.  And it's not a judgment statement. It's just, it is an observation that they, that is not, the focus is not, I'm going to sit and, you know, maybe at one point culturally years and years ago, it really was more family oriented, but it is not anymore.  It just simply is not. And, you know, it masquerades under that as, you know, oh, we're all going to the soccer game together and we're going to go watch the gymnastics performance or whatever it is. But that, that is not always true discipling of your children.   That's kind of being present in a cursory way and not truly and really, to really pay attention and really be present with your kids is going to look vastly different than what the rest of the world is doing.  And if it doesn't, you got to check. And I, I'm saying this as absolutely of myself, you know, there are moms that are just on their phone, and I can do that as well. I've had to put in, we can talk about specifics, but I've had to put in like specific things in my, in my actual phone, you know, and in my life parameters and guidelines so that I'm not doing that. But no one in the world is going to tell you not to, that's normal to just be stuck on your phone as a mom, as a kid, whatever. And so, a like, where are you getting your voice? That's saying how to parent, who are the voices that are speaking into your life?  Are you listening to older and wiser mentors? Are you reading really good books? Are you putting yourself in the word first thing in the morning or are you just floating around with whatever culture says to do? And I don't mean to sound judgy here because I am deeply convicted even as I'm speaking this of like, am I living this? I'm not always, it's very, very hard. But I just think we first, first step is, you know, to orient yourself to the Lord and how would he have you parent?  Not what is everyone else okay with doing? Cause it's going to look very different.   Laura Dugger: (14:26 - 16:54)  Okay. I love that with kind of the emphasis on; it does require a sacrifice from us with that quality and quantity time. And it makes me think on page 38 of your book, you encourage us to take the time to know each child, helping them find their passion, abilities, gifts, and interests.  And that really does bless both the child and the parent. And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase, there is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured, and well cared for.   During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more. I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy.  That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/savvy. S-A-V-V-Y.  Thanks for your sponsorship.   So, Jessica, what has this looked like in your home? And can you give us some ideas?   Jessica Smartt: (16:56 - 19:19) Yeah, I just think it is so, easy for us to have our own expectations of what our kids are, and even to speak that over them from the minute they come out of the womb, whether it's, oh, we've just pinned them as to be this, or it's something that we are, or something that we want them to be. But instead to look and see like, who is this actual child that's been created? And I thought of, you know, years and years ago, my son was like, itching to do something, you know, they get to be like nine, 10. And they start feeling like, you know, they need something other than mom in the house. And we were kind of praying about it and thinking it through. And he said, “I think I really would like to play soccer.”   And at the time, we were pretty, pretty committed into the baseball world. And I was like, no, you know, I had friendships with the parents, and we liked the coach, and we were already there. And soccer was this whole thing I didn't even know, you know, I was like, no.  And honestly, I waited for a year or two. But now my both my boys are in a semi travel league. It's not like all out driving all across the country, but they've been able to play at a higher level.  And they're doing amazing. It's clearly what they were meant to do. And I couldn't miss out on that just by being like, no, you know, that's not what you do.   Like, you know, so, just being open as a parent to really like, what are they good at? And it may not be what you thought it may not be what you are good at. My daughter loves to make a giant mess in the kitchen, giant and cook. And oh, my goodness, it is very hard for me because I'm like a keep it clean.  Don't use all the ingredients. But I've been convicted to really, you know, let her explore these gifts. I have a friend whose daughter is making these elaborate birthday cakes. I mean, like the most crazy food network kind of thing. And I saw it and thought, I know what that kitchen must have looked like when you let her do that. That was a lot of days and afternoons of you letting her waste the flour and make a big mess.  But the fruit is, it's incredible. And, so, yeah, sacrificing what we want to let them grow into, you know, and God is so, good.   Like if we don't know what it is, pray with your kid, like you, what did you, what is your thing?  What do you think God's made you to do? We, you know, need an activity. What, what, let's ask God, like what he wants you to do. I've never prayed a prayer like that that hasn't been answered and never.   Laura Dugger: (19:20 - 19:47)  Oh, that's so, good. I mean, we think of for friendship for ourselves or with our children or activities that they want to do, just hopefully that's what we keep being reminded of is bring it to the Lord rather than seeking out those voices and culture and see what his perfect plan is. But you also write an entire chapter on the power of time. So, will you share some of your applicable wisdom here?   Jessica Smartt: (19:49 - 22:15)  Yes. And you know, don't mind me while I actually get out the book, because even though you wrote it, sometimes you're like, what exactly did I say? Um, but thinking through like activities that our family has signed up for, as I mentioned, you know, I was kind of like connected in that baseball mindset.  And so, was it actually the right thing for my kids? Maybe or maybe not. And so, I talked through like at questions to ask, you know, as a husband and wife about where our family's going and what activities our kids are doing, which is a giant question today.   I don't think parents are thoughtful enough about what they're signing up for and what they're doing. And you get, you know, mid-November and your schedule is completely packed and your kids having meltdowns and you're never eating dinner together. And you're like, how did we get to this life? But it was a little bit of like, not quite following the path ahead mentally to see what it would look like. And I would just encourage anybody right now that it's not too late to rearrange, even if you have to quit something, even if it costs a deposit, even if you have to back out, like we are not as trapped as we think we are. And if you're doing something in your family that's not healthy, or, you know, it's not benefiting you stop, like no one's gonna, you know, anyway.   So, as you're thinking through activities, I talked about the interest question, which means like, is your kid actually there? Or is it like you that's kind of getting more out of this? And then I talked about the mealtime question.  And maybe we'll get to this, but family meals are so important. They really are. Even if it is, you know, not hours of sitting there with candlelight, whatever, just to have that checkpoint together. So, is your activity schedule, allowing you to uphold whatever your values are with meals? I'm not gonna tell you what they are, but is that what you want, really? And then the whole family question.   You know, I've seen a lot, and we've lived it too, of like the younger kid being getting drug around to the older talented kid's activities.  That's really a hard one, right? And so, I'm not saying don't do that. Sometimes families are gonna just look like that for seasons. But I do think it's worth stopping to say, what is it like right now to be that youngest child? What are they going through?  And am I being kind to them? You know, are there switches we can kind of make in the family? Because it's, you know, the family is not about one person and their talents. It's a holistic, healthy, functioning unit.   Laura Dugger: (22:18 - 23:21)  Absolutely. So, even, I hear you saying, evaluating, again, kind of taking inventory. What is on the family plate? How is that affecting every human in the unit of the family?  Is that taking us where we want to go? Just being, I love how you use the word thoughtful. Just being full of thoughts of this and taking it to the Lord of what's the wise thing to do. And for all of us, I think with that time question, it does lead us to the question of, who are we spending the most time with? Because that will significantly impact our lives.  It'll impact our children as well. So, do you have any other, I love those questions. Any other lessons that you've learned? I'm thinking especially related to activities and youth sports come to mind because our culture really has gone to the side of idolizing it and catering everything else around that. So, do you have any other wisdom to share on that topic?   Jessica Smartt: (23:23 - 25:48)  Yeah, I mean, I'll just share. Personally, we have decided to have our kids play at a level that is probably sub what their talent could be. And I don't know.  I guess time will tell. If they look back and they were like, mom, I really, you know, could have, but I have a hunch that they won't. I more often am seeing in my friends and stuff that it's like, they get into high school, and the kids are kind of starting to feel burnt out. Or they're like, you know, it's so, hard right now to be, I mean, not even a professional, let's say soccer player, but at college, it's like unheard of.  It's the elite, elite. And so, it's like, why are you doing this anyway?   And we've had several opportunities to compete at higher levels and try out for things that we have said no to, you know, because it would require being gone more nights, it would require tons of time in the car, it would be families away on the weekends.  So, we have some of that. I think it's important when you have boys, especially to let them have an outlet to compete as we, if you know, I homeschool as you do. And so, if you have a homeschooled teenage boy, they should probably be doing something right. So, I am not saying sit at home and, you know, play Monopoly every night as a family. But, we have chosen to prioritize other things.   And so, so far, I am super grateful for that. We had a season where we were way too busy with baseball. And it was the boys were like 10 and 12. And Monday through Thursday, one of them had a different we were never eating together Monday through Thursday, Saturdays, we were taking off different directions. I could never understand why we had to drive two hours to play a team. I'm like, there's so, many baseball players right in this neighborhood.  Can we not find a team? And God use that it's fine. But, but I don't I don't envy that season.   And I'm really grateful for some of the breathing room that we've had. And also, I would say my son, my oldest son is a gifted guitar player and singer. And he would not be able to do that. If we were 110% in one of those other sports, he would not have any time to even pursue those other interests.  You just never know. You know, I think white space and mental white space and time, I talk about this and let them be kids is so important for just developing as a person. No one flourishes well with a completely jam-packed schedule. And so, how would we expect our children to, you know, that is good.   Laura Dugger: (25:48 - 26:02)  That is so, wise. And how can we strategically connect with our kids so that they do feel seen, and known and loved and liked?   Jessica Smartt: (26:03 - 27:54)  Yes. I mean, that feels overwhelming, doesn't it? But and I talked through in the book kind of each one of those categories. But I know this is going to sound cliche, but I would just say a like recognizing that if a kid doesn't feel like you like them, they're going to notice that. And so, it doesn't matter all the extra things what you're getting them for Christmas, and where you're they're taking them if they really genuinely feel like you're kind of annoyed with them. They know that.   And that's, that's not great. So, I would say first step before you get into any practicals and pancake breakfast and all that is just like, if you are feeling that way to your kid, a don't feel guilty. It's natural.  We all have that at times. And be come before God and just say, these are the feelings I'm dealing with. Can you please help me here? And again, to quote myself, I've never prayed that prayer and it not been answered.  God has always shown up in some way. And so, often what it looks like I talk about in being liked is just like genuinely working on something that you have in common.   I think my parents did that so, well with us. And it wasn't the same thing because my siblings and I are all different. But they really worked to always find common ground and always have that relationship bucket full, right? My mom is like big on, you know, don't make too many withdrawals unless you have made a lot of deposits. And they lived that for years and years and years of pouring into us and genuinely connecting with us. So, way harder to do than to say, but that's our goal. And I do actually have a lot of specific ideas in the book of random ways you can love your kids, love languages and all of that. But yeah, asking God for help.   Laura Dugger: (27:55 - 28:09) And sometimes it's just helpful to hear what somebody else does, even if that's not exactly how it'll apply to our situation. But can you just give one example of a way that you use your child's love language, maybe both for one of your sons and your daughter?   Jessica Smartt: (28:11 - 29:33) Well, I've learned a lot about my middle child, and he loves the comfort things in life. So, if I see him struggling with school or something, I can bring him, you know, yogurt parfait or he likes coffee. So, we give our kids coffee.  Don't sue us anyway. But if I make him a cup of coffee, oh, you can just see it in his face. It's like, oh, mom loves me, you know?  He's one that even like if I go make his bed, he'll appreciate that. Not every kid is like that. But just kind of seeing and noticing the things that he likes.   That's been kind of something that we do. And then my daughter loves to tell stories, long, long stories. And I'm working so hard to not only like, I want to listen, but also, you know, teach her how to condense. Because Jordan Peterson says, don't let your kid become someone that is, you know, not pleasant to be around.  If you're struggling with something, someone else will, too. And she's an absolute delight.  I mean, truly. But so, just listening to her stories and kind of working on the art of conversation. My mom always said, play tennis, conversation tennis. So, you hit the ball, and then I hit the ball back to you. So, we're working on that, you know?   Laura Dugger: (29:35 - 30:05)  Absolutely. That reciprocity is huge. If you take turns asking questions, it reminds me, a previous guest, Jodi Berndt, had also said, in addition to that, let's also teach our children how to serve the ball. So, to initiate that, I just thought that that's so good. I'll work that in. Jessica, how can we purposefully make our home a place our family loves to be? And we do, too.   Jessica Smartt: (30:07 - 31:52) I have been learning so, much about this in this stage of life, you know, in my 40s.  And again, it's hard when you have little kids. So, I think you can probably say across the board, it's going to look different when you're raising little kids to have a warm and wonderful inviting home than it is in your later years when your kids are older, and you have more time.  But I would just challenge moms. Well, I look back and I think, if I hadn't been so, stretched thin and put unrealistic expectations on myself in other areas of life, I maybe could have invested in my home a little bit more. And the thing I have learned is that having a home that's peacefully run just reaps so, many benefits for a woman and her family.   And I am behind the curve, I feel like, on this. But as I have learned to organize my space and really pour myself into my home, not feeling like it's a waste of time to organize a pantry. It is amazing how it blesses my family.  People notice it. And it's hard to even articulate it because you wouldn't even think that if you clean out a closet, it's going to bless your family. But it really actually does.  And my husband benefits from it. He's not even like a strict, everything has to be clean. But when I've worked on something in the home, he sees it and notices it and appreciates it. So, God has just been teaching me so, much about what it looks like to really be like a homemaker, a godly homemaker and pour myself into my home. And I have reaped so much joy and peace from living out that role and calling in my life.   Laura Dugger: (31:53 - 32:23) That was one of the quotes I wrote down that observation that you made on page 142. And I'll just quote you, "when I do something to invest in our home, every single member of our family brightens." And I exactly great and you gave practical ways of how we can do that. And I also like it because it gives a little freedom because we're one of the family members too. And I think we brighten when we get that space in order.   Jessica Smartt: (32:24 - 33:06)  Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Again, back to our earlier like cultural, cultural narrative versus biblical. There's like a, there's a lot of messaging about that it doesn't matter to really invest in your home and your family. And that's just not how God made the world to operate. So, I would challenge moms that even if they are doing what the rest of everyone is doing, and it's like, ah, it looks like a bomb went off in here. Like, um, you know, that may not be how God is calling us to live with a giant disclaimer that there are seasons of life that it truly does look like a bomb went off.  And that is okay. We are doing good gospel work, raising children.   Laura Dugger: (33:07 - 33:46)  Absolutely. But then also I think Proverbs 31 sometimes gets a bad rap, but really there's a lot of freedom in it for women because it is how the Lord created us, but she does look well to the ways of her household. And I think that just summed up, she's one of the members of the household, but so is everybody else. And that's one thing that can bless everyone, but you are just full and abundant with ideas, and you have an appendix in the book full of resources to help us maintain and take care of all our responsibilities. So, will you share a few of those ideas with us?   Jessica Smartt: (33:47 - 34:46) Um, yes, I, and maybe this is my homeschool mom speaking, but I have just learned so, much from other good books. I have, it's truly changed my life just in whether it's talking about personal health or discipline or marriage or prayer or my home. So, the thing I'm really actually most proud about in the appendix is my list of recommended resources. And it's just all the books that have impacted me as a mom and also impacted my writing too.  Um, I'll, I'll mention one. I think, uh, I don't know if everyone has read A Praying Life, but that has completely transformed not only my walk with the Lord, but my prayer life.  And I've implemented, um, it's Paul Miller, I believe his idea for prayer cards. And I do that every morning. Um, it has been the sweetest thing, and I've really reaped a lot of blessing out of kind of modeling what he sets up in that book.  So, that's just one example. If you haven't read A Praying Life, you should definitely go read it.   Laura Dugger: (34:47 - 35:20)  That's awesome. And I don't know if this ties in, but I'm just remembering back one of the podcasts that I heard you speak on. You share your definition of godly self-care, and you say that it's whatever helps you do your job well and not at the sacrifice of others. So, can you elaborate with some encouragement for how we can make sure that we don't go to either side, that we don't neglect ourselves, but we also continue with this merrymaking for our family.   Jessica Smartt: (35:21 - 38:22)  Right. Yes. And, um, that definition, I always want to be like, you know, the end part about not to the sacrifice of someone else. When I had a young, I think I had two kids and my baby was six weeks old.  I had a very qualified, loving teenage girl. Watch my two kids while my husband and I left for literally an hour to go to five guys and get burgers.  And my youngest was not thrilled. He did not prefer the bottle. So, in some ways his life was unsettled for a brief moment, but that was okay. So, I think everyone knows when I say, um, you know, not to the sacrifice of everyone else.   What I'm saying is like looking at the family and certainly we shouldn't be like living this plush and well-watered life and someone else's withering away. So, it's a general statement of, you know, that it would be too far, as you said, on the extreme of, and I do think that happens honestly, because we're all self-centered.  It's not that we don't love our kids. We're just trained to care about ourselves. But many women struggle on the other side of, um, maybe neglecting some areas in their life that could truly help them to be better wives and better moms. And, um, it's a really fun activity to think like, what, how could I change my life a little bit in a way that I would be a better wife and mom.   And I'm not meaning that to justify any sort of behavior that, you know, you want to do, because you certainly could use that for almost anything. Um, but really to think like, how can I be the best mom and wife that I could possibly be? And it might mean making some, giving yourself some breathing room. And I would also encourage women to, um, one of the best uses for that time is to work on your marriage because there's direct overflow into the family. And so, best case, I gave some ideas of like family adventures that can kind of fill your cup along with everyone else. And I would say maybe next best or equal would-be husband, wife stuff where you can check out, connect, and you're overflowing and ready to enter back into family life.   And then finally things that it's certainly fine to just step out and find those things that are life giving to you, but just trying to keep an eye on, you know, how is everyone in the family doing? And there might be seasons.  I think of my mom caring for her mom who had dementia. She wasn't really well watered in that season. She was, she was quite depleted, but that's what the Lord had been calling her to do at that period of time. Um, and we often were like, mom, you've got to like, we thought she did too much, you know?  Um, but looking back, I think she really is so grateful that she laid down her life. There's not regret.  And so, I'm like, well, maybe she was right all along. I don't know.   Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 38:58)  Good though. The both and to have seasons of that, where we can refresh so, that when we go into a season where it's a little bit prior, we can be serving hopefully still from the overflow. But you also just blew me away in the book with your knowledge on roots. And the subtitle of that chapter is "recipes, relics, relatives, and other things that keep kids grounded." So, will you just teach us a little bit more about roots and share how it applies to building a strong family?   Jessica Smartt: (39:00 - 40:51)  Yes, I would like to shout out to my husband who is in the landscaping business. So, he helped me. I was like, hey, can you please give me some fun facts about roots?  And he was thrilled. But um, one thing I mentioned is that most plant problems are caused by root issues. And gosh, have I seen that in real life, like even as an adult, you notice somebody that is carrying still issues that they're working through from their childhood. And so, what a gift we're giving our kids by giving them those strong, good roots and a healthy, you know, childhood to enter into adulthood, not crippled by things, but that they can give out of strength.   And my husband and I feel like, you know, although our families of origin were not perfect, we lived that story, we were able to go out in strength, and not, you know, carrying all this emotional baggage. That's what I would like to give my kids. So, um, but then yeah, at the end, I share that the most integral roots to the plant's wellbeing are the ones right near the surface. And I thought, what a kind of cool parallel that even if we, you know, I've shared about my experience, but someone listening may not have good roots, and they really might struggle with having support and partnership. But they can give a new story to their kids. They can give them the roots that they did not have through the Lord's strength.  And I have found friends that I'm literally seeing them do it. But they are they are crippled. And you know, in therapy and dealing with all this trauma, but they're passing a different story on to their kids.  And how cool is that? I have so much admiration for that. It seems like it's something that really only can be done through the Lord's strength, but he does it. He writes those stories.   Laura Dugger: (40:51 - 41:11)  And he seems to delight in redemption stories. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And I'd love to continue kind of this idea time. Will you just share another handful of your favorite practical tips for building a strong family that are topics we haven't covered yet?   Jessica Smartt: (41:13 - 43:16) Well, I would start with one thing I have seen huge rewards is if we do sort of like a secret Santa idea, and we actually do it also before Valentine's Day and do you know, your cupids arrow, whatever, because it just changes your whole mindset when you're suddenly thinking, how can I, you know, love this person in my family, you're in a better mood.  And so, we divide up names. And then we also do like acts of service. And that is just such a fun, like low keyway to kind of get your kids to think about loving their siblings instead of being annoyed by them. We have loved doing game nights, and we're not like big game people. But finding ones that I think my encouragement would be that it doesn't have to be like this long three-hour thing.   If your family's not into that, we've done like minute to win at games that I just pulled up online.  We have a lot of games that are like, no mental stress. They're very easy, like Slopsy. If anybody has not played Slopsy, they need to pick it up. It's you could play it if you were extremely tired, which I often am at the end of the day. So, to find some like quip, there's also what do you mean family edition.  And that is a fun one. And I have some other games listed in the book too, for readers who are interested. So, those would be two. We also do like one-on-one activities with the kids. And I always thought you had to do it like really, really regularly. But I would just give the encouragement that some is better than none. And so, even if it's only a couple times a year, kids just soak that up. And it doesn't need to be, you know, this whole long thing, it could be like, hey, you need some new winter pants. Let's get a Chick-fil-A milkshake beforehand. You know, just to kind of keep your eyes open for those activities and opportunities.   Laura Dugger: (43:17 - 43:47)  Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com. Can you also share this genius idea about something that you put on the notes app of your phone?   Jessica Smartt: (43:48 - 44:50)  Yeah, so, I talked about the power of stories. Kids love hearing stories from our, you know, youth or young adulthood or even, you know, married years, whatever. So, I got in the habit of sharing a story with my daughter before bed. And of course, at night, you aren't always on your A game. So, I just have a note app on my phone to track different things that I might want to tell her. And my encouragement was that it doesn't need to be, we think it needs to be like this long, significant story, but even just little tidbits of things she has been delighted to hear over and over. You know, just like a passing, you know, anecdote that didn't seem to me to be too pregnant with meaning, but she just ate it up and loved hearing about all of the different things. So, yeah, that was just again, it didn't cost a lot. It's not hard, but just a little thing that kind of connected us and also connected her to a deeper sense of like, here's your roots of the people that raised you.   Laura Dugger: (44:53 - 45:36) I loved that idea because my daughters or our daughters will just catch us off guard and say, hey, share a story about us share a story about when you were little or when I was little. And so, I love your system that you have in place that when that idea comes to me, I can jot it down. And then when they ask unexpectedly, I'm prepared.  So, thought that was wonderful. And you've written an entire book on memories. So, I'll link to our previous episode where we talk about that.  And we dove into that topic. But you've updated your ideas in this book and come up with the most epic list of memory making ideas ever. So, could you just share a couple of those to give us a taste of what you include?   Jessica Smartt: (45:37 - 46:43) Yes, so, I think my favorite was at the end the chapter talking about surprises because I love the idea of surprising your kid. And when I talked about when I was little, my grandparents showed up at our school in their RV to take us camping. So, just thinking through like just different, a lot of those are like the big, you know, birthday or vacation or Christmas gifts. But even if you did it just one time, that's like a that can be like a core memory in you know, your kid's life.   When I was researching this, for the appendix, I reached out to a lot of my readers, and they had the most fun ideas of just creative family memory making things. And one that I remembered that I thought, I don't know if I have the guts to do this, but I think that this family came up with it during COVID. So, they were a little bit bored, and they packed a picnic and went to a stop sign. And when they got to one, they would roll a dice to see which direction they would turn until they ended up at a good picnic spot. She said it was harder than you would think.   Laura Dugger: (46:45 - 47:02)  That's hilarious. I love the creativity and that element of surprise. That is so, good. Well, I hope that everybody goes out to get a copy of your amazing book. But where else would you want to direct us to connect online after this chat?   Jessica Smartt: (47:03 - 47:15)  Yeah, definitely come say hi on Instagram. I'm Jessica Smartt with two Ts. And you can tell me what you enjoyed about our conversation. And I'm usually every so, often we'll check the messages, but I do get back to you.   Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:34)  Love it. We'll add links to that in the show notes for today's episode. And Jessica, you're already familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical. And so, my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?   Jessica Smartt: (47:36 - 48:09)So, what has changed my life, I really think is, and this isn't like the most exciting thing, but walking every single day, and I walk with my weighted vest. So, I look like every other 40-year-old woman that is out there. We have a little trail around our farm. So, I, it's, I honestly have like seen so, much change in my mental health and physical health. And I know they say that on all of these, you know, resources and stuff. And I never thought it was true. But it really has changed my life just to walk every day.   Laura Dugger: (48:11 - 52:21)  Amen, sister, I totally agree with that. That is so, well said. You are just a brilliant and faithful and godly and humble woman. You're gifted with your communication with your words in this conversation and in the books that you've shared with the world.  And I am just so grateful for you, Jessica. Thank you so much for being my guest today.  Well, thank you for those kind words.   One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

From the pressure to “get it right” to the constant second-guessing, so many of us carry quiet questions in motherhood: Am I doing enough? Am I messing this up? Am I a good mom? In this episode of Carpool Conversations, Sara and Marissa sit down with author and podcast host Hallie Dye to talk honestly about the weight moms carry—and the freedom found in surrendering that weight to the One who never fails. Hallie shares the heart behind her first book, You're Still a Good Mom: Motherhood Surrendered to the One Who Never Fails, and unpacks what it really means to be “a good mom” from a biblical perspective. Together, they discuss why our limitations are by design, how surrender reshapes the way we approach our roles, and how to navigate the tension between responsibility and trust in God. Whether you're in the thick of diapers and sleepless nights or navigating new challenges with older kids, this conversation is a gentle reminder: your worth was never meant to be measured by your performance. You are still a good mom. -- Meet our guest: Hallie Dye Book: You're Still a Good Mom: Motherhood Surrendered to the One Who Never Fails  Podcast: The Saltworks -- Question of the Week: What is something you enjoy and want me to keep doing as your mom/dad? -- Hosts: Sara Jones & Marissa Ray Guest: Hallie Dye Producers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun -- Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org! Instagram: @WinShapeCamps TikTok: @WinShapeCamps Facebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In a culture that celebrates busy schedules and constant hustle, what would it look like to slow down as a family?This week, Sara and Marissa sit down with author and mom of four, Samantha Decker, to talk about unhurried parenting. Drawing from her book Unhurried, Samantha shares how the Lord used a simple call to to reshape her family's rhythms and perspective on eternity.They discuss margin, the connection between control and hurry, and practical steps for creating a schedule that makes room for what matters most. This episode offers encouragement and hope for anyone feeling stretched thin or stuck in a cycle of hurry.--Meet our guest: Samantha DeckerUnhurried – written by Samantha Decker--Question of the Week: Where in our lives do you think we need to slow down as a family?--Hosts: Sara Jones & Marissa RayGuest: Samantha DeckerProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

How do we help our kids see beyond themselves—and discover their place in God's bigger story? In this episode of Carpool Conversations, Sara and Marissa sit down with author, illustrator, and global ministry leader Sarah Nunnally to talk about giving kids a vision for their community and the nations.Drawing from her years serving overseas and her new children's book series God Everywhere, Sarah shares practical, hope-filled ways parents can nurture compassion, curiosity, and faith in their kids—starting right where they are. You'll walk away encouraged and equipped to help your children love their neighbors near and far and see how God invites every family into His global story.--Meet our Guest: Sarah NunnallyBooks: God Everywhere Series - written and illustrated by Sarah NunnallyVideos: Beginner Art Tutorials by Sarah Nunnally--Question of the Week: How do you think God has designed you uniquely to serve and love others around the world?--Hosts: Sara Jones & Marissa RayGuest: Sarah NunnallyProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Where do our kids learn what they're worth – and how do we guide them toward the truth that their value comes from God, not achievements or approval? Today, Amy and Marissa are joined by returning guest Margaret Sharpe to talk about how the question of worth shows up at every stage of childhood, from early elementary through high school. Together, they unpack the lies that kids often believe about themselves, how those lies evolve as kids grow, and how Scripture speaks directly to the questions our kids are asking – even when they can't find the words for them. You'll also get a sneak peek into WinShape Camps' upcoming theme for summer 2026, ASCEND: Encounters with the Holy God, and walk away with gospel-centered truths to help your kids (and yourself) rest in the worth God has already given.--WinShape Camps 2026 Theme Preview: Ascend--Question of the Week: What do you think that God thinks about you?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Marissa RayGuest: Margaret SharpeProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Chores. Just hearing the word can bring up a mix of reactions—from sighs to eye rolls to “we should really work on that in our house.” In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that seems simple on the surface but can be surprisingly challenging to put into practice. We're talking about why chores matter and how everyday responsibilities help prepare our kids for life beyond our homes—while also building important life skills through responsibility and natural consequences.We're joined by Kim Smelley—mom of three, camp mom, and master of what she calls “somewhat organized chaos.” Kim shares how chores have evolved in her family, what's worked (and what hasn't), and practical ways to encourage kids when motivation is low. Whether chores are a strength in your home or a struggle, this conversation will help you see them as an opportunity for growth, teamwork, and meaningful connection with your kids.--Question of the Week: What is your favorite chore to do around the house? What is your least favorite chore?--Hosts: Sara Jones & Amy LoweGuests: Kim SmelleyProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

With Christmas just one week away, consider this episode your invitation to pause, exhale, and remind yourself of what truly deserves your attention and affection this time of year. Amy Lowe, a fellow wife, mom, and follower of Christ, is joining us to talk about how to ditch the unrealistic expectations of the season, let go of pressure and aesthetic, simplify around what matters, and enjoy this often busy season with Christ and our loved ones. Connect with Amy and Winshape here. It's not too late to grab Tara's new book, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Overbooked and Overwhelmed: How to Keep Up With God When You're Just Trying to Keep Up With Life⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - for a Christmas gift. FOLLOW TRUTH TALKS WITH TARA ON⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ INSTAGRAM⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ -- CONNECT WITH TARA: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Books⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Her website⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jewelry line⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The free, email family⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ / ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Sponsor a child through Compassion Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Family relationships can be some of the most meaningful—and the most challenging. In this episode, Sara and Marissa sit down with Dr. Rob and Amy Reinow from Visionary Family Ministries to talk about what reconciliation really means, why forgiveness is a heart-level issue, and how parents can cultivate a culture of healing and forgiveness in their homes. Whether you're navigating daily conflicts or deep family hurts, this conversation offers biblical wisdom and practical steps for restoring what's broken in your family or any relationship.--Book: Healing Family Relationships: A Guide to Peace & Reconciliation by Rob ReinowBook: Visionary Parenting: Capturing a God-sized Image for Your Family by Rob & Amy ReinowAbout: Visionary Family MinistriesPodcast: Family Vision by Dr. Rob and Amy Reinow--Question of the Week: Which relationship in our family is the most challenging right now?--Hosts: Sara Jones & Marissa RayGuests: Dr. Rob Reinow and Amy ReinowProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

In this episode of the Foster Friendly Podcast, host Brian Mavis and co-host Travis Vangsnes welcome Callie Priest, the director of strategic partnerships for WindShape Homes. They discuss the mission of WindShape Homes, which was founded by the founders of Chick-fil-A to support children in foster care. Callie shares her unique journey into the foster care space, emphasizing the importance of mobilizing local churches to engage in foster care and provide support for vulnerable families. The conversation also covers the various programs and services offered by WindShape Homes, including their group care model and partnerships with churches to create supportive communities for foster families. Additionally, they introduce the new WindShape Homes podcast, aimed at raising awareness and sharing stories related to foster care. In this conversation, Callie discusses the barriers to awareness in foster care, the importance of collaboration among organizations, and the challenges of competition in the nonprofit sector. She emphasizes the need for a redemptive narrative in foster care and highlights the essential needs of children in the system, particularly the importance of Christ in their lives. The discussion also touches on the role of organizations in creating a supportive ecosystem for foster care and the necessity of working together to improve outcomes for children.Checkout WinShape Homes' resources and services:Listen to The WinShape Homes Podcast:TakeawaysWindShape Homes was founded to support children in foster care.Callie Priest has a background in nonprofit leadership and church ministry.The importance of mobilizing local churches to engage in foster care.WindShape Homes offers a group care model and foster care services.The organization partners with churches to create a supportive community for foster families.Callie emphasizes the need for clinical care in foster care programs.WindShape Homes has expanded its services to include a child placing agency.The organization aims to provide stability and support for vulnerable families.Callie highlights the complexity of the foster care system.The launch of the WindShape Homes podcast aims to raise awareness and share stories. Awareness is a significant barrier in foster care.A redemptive narrative is needed in foster care discussions.Collaboration among organizations is crucial for success.Competition among nonprofits can hinder progress.Foster care requires a community effort for better outcomes.Children in foster care need stable families and access to the gospel.Organizations should focus on collective impact rather than individual branding.The foster care system is complex and requires diverse expertise.Healthy ecosystems in foster care can lead to better care.Generosity and cooperation are essential in the nonprofit sector.

Guest: Amy LoweOrganizations: WinShape Camps for Girls, WinShape Camps for FamiliesPosition: DirectorTopic: a discussion based on an article at the WinShape Camps website, called, 10 Ways to Keep Jesus at the Center of ChristmasWebsite: winshapecamps.org

Guest: Amy LoweOrganizations: WinShape Camps for Girls, WinShape Camps for FamiliesPosition: DirectorTopic: a discussion based on an article at the WinShape Camps, called, 10 Ways to Keep Jesus at the Center of ChristmasWebsite: winshapecamps.org

Perspective can change the way we see life, parenting, and even our daily struggles—but it's not always easy to gain. Amy and Sara sit down with Cody Braun, Marketing Manager for WinShape Camps and father of two, to talk about how perspective can grow patience and gratitude, why it's so hard in the moment, and practical ways to see life more clearly.They also explore how perspective can help in every season—mountaintops, messes, and everything in between—and Cody shares lessons from parenting his young kids. Tune in for an honest, hope-filled conversation that will help you slow down and gain a bigger God-sized view on life.--Question of the Week: If you could go back in time, what is one thing that you would do differently?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Cody BraunProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Adoption is a beautiful reflection of God's heart — but it's also a journey filled with questions, challenges, and deep emotions. In this episode, Amy and Sara sit down with Stephen Moore, Director of WinShape Camps for Communities and proud dad of three, two of whom are adopted. Stephen shares his family's adoption story — from their first “yes” to welcoming their children home — and opens up about how faith has guided every step along the way.Together, they unpack common misconceptions about adoption, how to navigate conversations about biological family, and what it looks like to help kids understand adoption in a healthy, Christ-centered way. Whether you're considering adoption, have already adopted, or simply want to help your kids see adoption through a biblical lens, this conversation will encourage you to view family the way God does.--Christian Kids Music - Slugs & Bugs--Question of the Week: What makes a "family” a family?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Stephen MooreProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Special Patreon Release: Teaching our Children about Finances with Markie Castle   1 Timothy 6:6-10 (NIV) "But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs."   *Transcription Below*   Markie Castle is a wife of 41 years, mother of 3 and is blessed with 7 grandchildren. After teaching at ICC for 20 years, she retired to help take care of all those blessings! Her husband Bob and she have been living in Peoria and attending Bethany Baptist Church for 24 years.  She has been coaching on finances and families for over 30 years.   Questions and Topics We Discuss: What is one key to managing our personal relationship with finances? What have been the most unexpected benefits of coaching your sons on wise financial stewardship? How did you teach your children to allocate percentages their money?   Thank You to Our Sponsors: WinShape Marriage   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”   Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”   Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”   Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”   John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:20) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.   I first met Markie Castle through a local mom's group that was gathering at a church, and she was the speaker.   I was drawn to her sense of humor, her storytelling, and her wise practices. Her practical applications that she's going to explain near the end of this episode are practices that my husband Mark and I plan to implement beginning today. I'm so excited to share all of that with each of us listening now.   Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Markie.   Markie Castle: (1:21 - 1:22) It's a pleasure to be here.   Laura Dugger: (1:22 - 1:34) Well, will you just start us off by sharing more about your family and, specifically, the parenting piece that you say you got right by intentionally focusing on it?   Markie Castle: (1:35 - 4:13) I'd love to. I am incredibly blessed to be married to my husband, Bob, and we had three children that blessed us with wonderful wives and grandchildren. My husband and I started our marriage with him in school and me on a beginning teaching salary.   Today's dollars, it would be worth about $38,000. The two of us were living on $38,000 a year with him in school at the U of I and paying significant tuition. We were paying the tuition as well as supporting ourselves on that salary.   We were blessed to have a son three years later and then another son two years after that. My husband was holding a two-year-old and a two-week-old in his cap and gown. I remember showing our three sons' pictures of us saying, don't do this.   We supported ourselves entirely. We also did not see that we were in dire straits. We made my salary work by living in small apartments.   With one landlord, we made an agreement with him that we would do extra work around the property for a deduction in rent. We just made it work. We never saw any of this as a negative.   We also did not see that putting purchases on a credit card that we could not pay off at the end of the month as an option. We were happy where we were at and we loved it. My husband got a job and we moved out of the area.   We were at the time in Champaign-Urbana area. We moved to the Peoria area. We had a third son, which gave us three children in four years.   We still saw the need to keep our budget under control. Our meals were determined by what was on sale, what we had coupons for. Clothes were only bought on sale or from consignment shops.   Again, we never saw credit card debt as an option. If we didn't have the money, we didn't buy it. We wanted to raise our children to have a respect for money and to have an awareness of contentment.   We also wanted to have them experience the joy of having money to give away. This is what helped us. This is how we felt and we wanted to share that with our sons.   Laura Dugger: (4:14 - 4:37) I love that and I can just imagine all of the character building that comes out of really seeking to be wise stewards of what the Lord's entrusted to you. I'm wondering if you had some guiding scriptures on this topic of finances that really gave you insight into godly wisdom rather than the worldly kind.   Markie Castle: (4:38 - 9:05) As we know, besides love, money is written more in the Bible than anything else. It is so wise to go to the Bible for this. Luke 14:28 is such a good verse for a base.   It says, “Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won't you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it?” This is stating that we should budget our money and plan before we build a tower or buy a car or even buy a new blouse that you may want.   Another verse, 1Timothy 6:6-10 speaks to another extremely important part of leading a God-centered life, being content. It states, “But godliness with contentment is great gain for we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that. Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people eager for money have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.”   It reminds us of where our minds should be. We have heard many talks on finances, budgeting, etc. Very little time, if any, is spent on being content.   Even in the Christian financial counseling speakers, they do not spend time on this. Not only is it scriptural, it is something that makes budgeting and spending so much easier. If you are content, you don't feel that need to spend and let alone overspend.   It just makes budgeting so much easier. Matthew 6:24 is very blunt to the point. It says, “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.”   It's not just what you have in your bank account. It's are we serving the Lord or are we serving money by needing a bigger house or whatever. Serving money over God can mean so many things. It can mean making secret purchases that you are hiding from your spouse.   I had a friend who used to have her sister buy her shoes that she wanted. And then she would bring them into the house without her husband knowing. But she had her sister buy it so her husband didn't see it on the credit card.   Or it can mean buying a brand-new car you can't afford and you go into debt for it. There is scripture that addresses this also in Romans 13:8 states, “Owe no one anything except to love each other.” And Proverbs 22:7 states, “The borrower is the slave of the lender.”   This is not to say a person should never have a loan. We needed a loan for our house. It was a smart move because we would have just paid rent forever.   But we needed a house and at the time we didn't have money for a house. Especially since my husband just got out of school. But when we were going looking at houses, the realtor said, “But you can afford this.”   And it was a much bigger house than we needed. And we said, “No, we don't need this.” “Yes, but you can get this.”   “Yes, I know, but this one's just fine.” We bought a house that we were able to pay off quickly. And we were very happy with it.   Laura Dugger: (9:07 - 9:30) I love hearing how you've applied scripture to your own lives, because really the ones that you shared, those are so practical and actionable. And we didn't even scratch the surface of all, like you said, that the Bible has to speak about money. But if you kind of had to boil it down, what would you say is one key to managing our personal relationship with finances?   Markie Castle: (9:30 - 13:58) I truly, truly believe that being content is truly key. It's so easy to become frustrated and discouraged with what you have. And many, many people watch HGTV.   And I personally love it. There are times that I cannot watch HGTV because I start wanting this or wanting that. When I watch it, it makes me start thinking if I only had a bigger kitchen or buying new furniture would transform this room.   All of these things can distract us into thinking about all the things I don't have, rather than seeing the things I do have. It can be a very dark road. But there's ways of overcoming that too.   I love for people to write down things that you do have, especially the important things like your family, your friends, your church community. Those are the things that are far more important than a bigger kitchen. I know for me, our house, when I moved into our house, I didn't even see our house when we purchased it because we thought we'd only be here three to four years max.   So, I figured three to four years, I don't need to see a house. I wanted it in a certain area and I needed four bedrooms for all of us. And that was about it.   Well, I knew I'd be here three to four years. And I think we're coming up to 25 years in August of being here. God had other plans for us.   And that was it. The kitchen is not what I would have chosen. It's rather small.   And do you know when I get most frustrated is when our family is over and we have 20 people and they're all in the kitchen. And I've got all these grandkids running around getting in the way. And I get frustrated over the smaller kitchen.   Think about it. I have my family here making memories. It's wonderful.   I'll take a small kitchen with all my family before I take a big kitchen without them. It was interesting. I taught at ICC.   And I walked into class one time and all the students were talking about how little they had, how poor they were. And I just listened to them for a while. And they were saying they didn't have any money.   And I said, “I don't mean to brag, but I am really, really wealthy.” And they looked and they said, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah, really wealthy.”   And he said, “Must be nice.” I said, “Yeah, it really is.” I said, “Do you realize that my husband and I, we have two cars?”   And they kind of looked at me and they said, “Yeah.” I said, “No, no, no, no. Do you understand that when I walk into my house, I have heat in the winter?   And, and air conditioning in the summer.” And they kind of looked at me and go, “Yeah.” And I said, “And I can go to this faucet and I can turn this handle and fresh water comes out.”   They all looked and said, “Yeah.” And I said, “That is how wealthy I am.” And they all kind of looked and they said, “We get it.”   And we are very wealthy in this country. We are very wealthy. See, having what you have could be seen as extremely wealthy in many countries.   Even when it's their norm. But with war-torn countries, it's even worse. It's just all about perspective.   Laura Dugger: (13:58 - 14:10) Well, I think you're highlighting the keys to contentment. It's all about perspective and also gratitude. How would you define stewardship?   Markie Castle: (14:11 - 14:19) I would just say it's taking great care of what God has given us and using it for his glory.   Laura Dugger: (14:19 - 14:27) Well, and what has been the most unexpected benefit of coaching your sons on wise financial stewardship?   Markie Castle: (14:28 - 17:52) That is such a great question. I would say the independence that they had as teenagers and adults. It was incredible to see how they were independent with money and other ways because of it.   Each son also married women who were financially aware. We never really talked about that. When our children got married, we had one stipulation that they married a believer for us to bless the marriage.   But it was amazing that they all married women who were financially conservative. We have never had any trouble or issues with any of our children with money. I know that some people will say, you never lend relatives money, you give it to them because you know you'll never get it back.   Well, we have lent our kids money for certain predicaments when they first started off and they started paying us back immediately. There's a lot of talk about whether you should let your children move back into your house. Now, I know people have said, “Nope, once my kids are gone, they're gone.”   And I don't think that's very loving. I think that anybody is allowed back, you know, if they need to come back and live with us, even if it's somebody in our church family, they would be welcomed. All three of our boys at some point came back to live with us for a while for different reasons.   And we actually charged them rent. And they were very good with that. In fact, they liked it because then they weren't freeloading.   Now, they didn't know it at the time, but we took their rent and put it away and kept it separately. And then when they moved out, they had a nice little sum there that they could use for a down payment for their house or for moving costs or whatever. I think it's important to watch your children grow, to give them.   And these are the things that we have seen that we didn't expect. All of our boys are very financially secure. And they only have mortgage debt, which they are all paying off quicker than what was scheduled.   And this is just a mindset. They are not suffering because they don't have the new car. In fact, our one son and his wife, they bought our old van 10 years ago, and they still have it.   They're at 195,000 miles on the car. Now, I think she wears this like a badge of honor. She's going to make it to 200,000.   They have been putting money away for a new car. They have enough money to buy a new car, but they're going to wait until they need it. And when they need it, they're going to be able to go in and say, here is the money for the car.   I don't need a loan. Those are the things that kind of surprised me.   Laura Dugger: (17:53 - 17:58) I think oftentimes there's a lot of joy when we have limits.   Markie Castle: (17:59 - 18:04) Exactly. I agree with you. It does give you joy to know that you have that freedom.   Laura Dugger: (18:06 - 18:22) Well, and we've spoken kind of about big picture, and I'd love to move in the funnel now down to actionable and practical. So, when you look back, how old were your children when you and Bob began training them on finances?   Markie Castle: (18:24 - 19:08) Truly, as soon as our children understood the meaning of money, we started. We started our oldest son when he was five years old by giving him allowance. The others started when they were four because they saw what was happening with the older child.   And I know a lot of people relate to this and they wanted to be a part of it. You know, your younger ones sometimes learn faster because of the older ones. It was important to start when they were wanting things at the stores, whether it was toys or candy at the checkout aisle, etc.   They needed an awareness that everything costs money and they couldn't have everything.   Laura Dugger: (19:09 - 19:32) Well, and I remember you coming to speak to our mom's group one time. And even if somebody is wondering, well, how do I keep this fair between children? You even had a solution for that because with your kids at the different ages, I remember you saying you started them with one dollar per year old they were per week.   So, the four-year-old only made four dollars for the five-year-old made five.   Markie Castle: (19:33 - 21:21) That's right. Well, and it's funny you say about the fairness. Even when our children, so we had three boys, they were all two years apart, so they were really involved with one another.   They were great friends. But I remember going to my husband's mom was watching our children when we ran to get something to do a few errands. And we came back with a pair of shoes that our oldest child needed.   And she looked at us and said she didn't get anything for the other boys. And I said, but they didn't need new shoes and they don't need anything. And she goes, but you can't bring something in for one child without bringing in something for the others.   And I reiterated, but they didn't need anything. And do you know what? Our boys, we never thought anything of that.   Our boys have never said, well, why didn't I get anything? And if they did, we'd say, “Well, you didn't need this or you didn't need that.” Our children never counted what the other ones have.   Now saying that when it came to the birthdays, we gave the same monetary value to all of them when it came to Christmas, when it came to things. But when it really came to that, one son needed a pair of shoes, but the others didn't. We didn't go out and get shoes for all of them.   And they just were raised with that. And to this day, they all know that it all comes out fairly in the end. You know, we don't bring home things just for one, the same child every time.   Does that make sense?   Laura Dugger: (21:21 - 21:32) Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate that perspective. I'm also curious, were there any other memorable phrases you and your husband taught your children?   Markie Castle: (21:33 - 26:37) You know, there were many. One of the things we had said to them was we can afford anything. But we can't afford everything.   So, we would impress upon them how fortunate we were to afford things. But we certainly can't afford everything. We had friends who would never purchase soda and we did the same thing.   But they really like to travel and the kids like to travel. And so, they wouldn't buy a soda in a restaurant or buy a snack at the mall because they wanted to travel. And they would ask their kids, you know, would you rather purchase a soda or snack now or enjoy the soda or snack in Europe?   And it made the kids think. OK, so again, this is all in what you choose. I was listening to someone at a talk and actually at a moment at our church that said, “You know, what could you save if you didn't get your daily latte from Starbucks?”   And I'm thinking, OK, and his point was at six dollars per drink. You could say. And I figured this out, two thousand one hundred and eighty-four dollars per year.   After two years, you could have enough money to go to Hawaii. Now, that's great. This particular person loves to travel and he doesn't like coffee.   So, to him, it was a no brainer. But if someone doesn't like to travel. But enjoys that daily vacation of going to Starbucks.   This may be the one they would choose. So, we're all different in what we like and what we want. But.   The important thing is, is that you're not adding this to a debt that you're paying 24 percent interest because that six dollar cup of coffee is actually going to cost you much more than the six dollars. Also, I was teaching a group of nearly married couples about finances and. Someone brought up that they can't afford a date night.   I mean, after babysitting, after dinner at the restaurant, etc. they can't afford that. And babysitting nowadays is ridiculously expensive. And another couple said that they have date nights every other week.   What they do is they trade off with another couple for babysitting and they pack a dinner and go on a picnic. So, basically, their date night costs them nothing. Not being able to afford an expensive dinner for a date night.   That puts you in a mindset that you're doing without. Instead, look at what you have. You know, taking a hike.   Visiting a museum on a free day. Getting a membership to places that you could then feel like you're going for free. Walking along the river.   All of these are wonderful ways to have a date night. My husband and I would have a date night in our home. We would feed the boys their favorite chicken nuggets and macaroni and cheese.   And we put them to bed. We would then, I would get out and have tablecloth and have candlelight. And we would have a quiet adult meal by candlelight.   It was a wonderful date night. And it cost us nothing. Now, where we were, we could not afford babysitting.   And we did not have people who could babysit. We didn't have a community that we could share babysitting. We did find that as the kids got older.   And we utilized that, which was wonderful. We used to share a Friday night with a family. This is when the kids were a little older.   And we would switch with them. Every other Friday night, we would switch kids. We would take their kids for one of the Fridays.   And then two weeks later, they would take our kids. And they took them overnight. So, we had, you know, Friday evening and Saturday morning.   And it cost us nothing. And the joy of that was when we took their kids, it was a blast. Because we always planned on doing extra special things.   Because it was like one big party. It worked very well. And we were able to have free babysitting just because we exchanged.   As opposed to paying for a babysitter.   Laura Dugger: (26:38 - 29:02) And I love the creativity. How you problem solved that to still go for your date night. Because that was a value.   And I think you're empowering all of us that these options are possible. And we do have a choice in this situation. And then also the reality that we're going to operate within the reality of trade-offs.   And now a brief message from our sponsor.   Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse?   And a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the empty nest phase, there is an opportunity for you.   WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured even when it seems things are going smoothly. So, they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga.   While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured, and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more. I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content.   You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage dot org slash savvy, S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   And as you and Bob continued to train your children with finances, how did you see this play out with each of their different personalities?   Markie Castle: (29:04 - 32:55) Although we raised our boys within the same manner, we were blessed with three totally different children. Totally. When it came to money, one was a saver, one was a spender, and one was a minimalist.   And although they all were different, they all needed the structure of financial awareness. So, our eldest wanted to save every dime that he was given. And you know what?   He's still that way. He wants to save, save, save, save, save. Our middle child would spend every dime that he would receive.   It would not be in his pocket for more than a couple of minutes. Then our youngest child didn't care about buying anything, which was very different from the saver. He was just a minimalist.   I don't need anything. It just doesn't matter. And he is still that way.   So, our spender needed to learn the importance of budgeting and saving. They all needed to learn it, but it was extremely important for him. And he did learn.   When he was about 10 or 11, he lost some money for not doing certain chores. And he looked at us and said, the only reason you had children was to make money. My husband and I were literally speechless.   We kind of just looked at him and we didn't know what to say. And then he just looked at us after a couple of moments and he said, that's the stupidest thing I've ever said. And yep, we all had a good laugh.   He did learn to budget and it was interesting. So, when he was in high school and starting to date, he took this girl that he wound up dating for several years. And he was going to go to the movies and he was a gentleman.   He was absolutely a gentleman. And they walked into the movies and he paid for the movies because that's what you do. And then as they were walking past the concession stand, he said, “Well, do you want popcorn?”   And she said, “Oh, that'd be nice.” And he said, “Okay, well, you're going to need to get it yourself. I'm not paying those prices.”   And she was kind of, ”Okay.” Now we needed to teach him a little bit more about dating with that. But it was like he paid for the movies.   He wasn't going to pay $10 for a box of popcorn. So, he had learned the value of money. When you can get into the movie for less money than a box of popcorn, there's something to be thought about that.   I am happy to say that while he did not marry her, but I'm happy to say that he did marry someone and he learned to budget. And she is all about budget, budget, budget. But that also means that they are able to enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.   I think budget gets a really bad name because you think that means that you can't buy things if you budget. And I see it as the exact opposite. If I budget $50 for entertainment, for the month, for the week, for whatever, you can enjoy having that entertainment because that's money that is free and clear for you to use.   Laura Dugger: (32:56 - 33:14) Yeah, I'm with you on that too, because I do think that self-control that really is a fruit of the spirit, but that discipline and self-control leads to freedom eventually. And so, again, those limits provide joy and freedom, which is counterintuitive, but the Lord's economy.   Markie Castle: (33:14 - 33:34) That's right. But once you do it, you realize, and we have seen this happen, that they go, “Oh, I feel better about going to the movies because it's already been planned, which goes back to when you build a tower, you should plan that.”   Laura Dugger: (33:35 - 33:43) You've mentioned that you did offer an allowance. So, what were your allowance or commission guidelines?   Markie Castle: (33:44 - 35:58) So, there's many trains of thought with this. We felt that there were certain chores that needed to be done as part of the household. So, making your bed, setting the table, helping with dinner, cleaning up the dishes, sweeping the floor.   Obviously, our children were expected to do more as they got older. I would give them opportunities, though, to do over and beyond, and then they could make extra money. So, there were certain expectations on a daily basis, and that was part of being part of the household, being part of the family.   But to go over and beyond would give us the time. Now, I do know some people pay for everything that they do, and I understand where they're coming from with that, but then they may choose not to make their bed or choose not to set the table because they don't want the money, but then other people need the table to be set. So, that can cause issues, too.   We never, when it came to grades, I know that's something that's talked about, we never paid for certain grades in school. We did allow them, you know, at the time it was, well, if you get this many A's, you can get a pizza or something, you know, from Pizza Hut or something. We would do that, but we never paid for specific grades for our kids.   There was an expectation that they would do well, not for the money. But we would all go out and celebrate when they all had good report cards. So, I know that there's different trains of thought with that.   You know, there are some others who will put a price on certain chores and have the allowance reflect that money they made. Our boys received their allowance, but there were times that we charged them when we needed to do their chore, like pick up their clothes in the bathroom after they've been asked to do so. So, if we did something, we kind of charged them for it.   And that's when our son said, well, you just had children to make money.   Laura Dugger: (35:59 - 37:14) Guess what? We are no longer an audio only podcast. We now have video included as well.   If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.   With our family, our daughters currently are nine, eight, six, and four. And so, they have the understanding of give, save, spend. But just this summer, our sweet and very generous neighbor, Jillian, James and Jillian, have hired our oldest two, Sayla and Shiloh, to water their plants while they're traveling. And so, this is their first paid job opportunity.   And so, my plan with my husband is to train our girls with this podcast. And there's a question I want to ask you next that I believe will even guide us with our conversation and how to train them. So, when your children were earning money or making this allowance, even from a young age, how did you teach them to split their money?   Markie Castle: (37:16 - 42:21) So, we set up our allowance that they were given one-dollar times their age, which you had alluded to early on. So, each week, a five-year-old would get five dollars a week, which sounds like a lot, right? Or a ten-year-old would get ten dollars.   And that sounds awesome, right? But it was broken down. So, we first would take ten percent which goes to charity.   We wanted to teach the children about tithing. And that was the first. The next, we had ten percent that was taken for taxes.   And we used that for family fun night, which made those nights special to them. Now, what they learned from having their taxes taken, when they went to get their first job, like when they were 16 or 17, and our oldest son got a job at the Zoli's when it was there. And he was not in shock when he was given his paycheck and taxes were taken out.   He understood that. All his other friends were complaining about them taking it. But our children knew there were taxes, and taxes went for the good of the community.   We also took ten percent for retirement. And that was just good habits to form. We kept it.   We kept account of how much it was. And when they got out of college, we gave them their retirement. Wow.   Now in their 30s, they have a financial guy and he is shocked at how set our children are for the future. Then 20 percent went to college. Once again, this was kind of a mindset.   Now, if you don't think your children are going to go to college, I would still recommend at least going to community college or a trade or whatever. We saved this and gave it to them to put towards their expenses when they went to college. So, we literally gave them their money and said, this is what you have saved over all these years.   Now you have 50 percent left. So, 25 percent went to savings. And they had to put this in a separate category, and they needed to buy something with it that was $25 or more.   We wanted them to learn how to save up for that special whatever they wanted. They could spend that on whatever. So, that would make for a five-year-old, fifty cents went to church, fifty cents for taxes, fifty cents for retirement, a dollar for college, a dollar twenty-five for savings.   And what they got at the end, they got a dollar twenty-five for the week, which is a good amount for a five-year-old. But let me just say, when I say so they can spend it, if you're the parent, it is okay to say no to what they are purchasing. Our middle son at a point, now he was older, but he wanted to get 10 piercings in one ear.   We didn't think this was a wise decision, not all at the same time. He respectfully stated that he was old enough that he didn't need our permission and that he could pay for it. Now, mind you, he was living with us at the time, but he said he didn't need our permission.   And he said it respectfully. We did tell him no, and that as long as he was living with us, reaping the benefits of our house, utilities, food, vacations, he still needs to abide by our parental decisions. And you know what?   It wasn't an issue. He said, okay. And when he was on his own, you know what?   He had become wiser over those couple of years and he didn't do it. So, it's okay to say no to some things. And saying that, doing this allowance, it makes going places so much nicer.   I never said no to my kids. And it was funny because when we talk about moms' groups or whatever, I said, “Oh, I never tell my children no. They can have, you know, what they asked me for things, I never tell them no.”   And they go, “Really?” And I said, “Yeah.” I'd say, “Do you have the money for it?”   Oh, okay. And then it wasn't me saying no. They needed to make that decision.   This sounds so negative and it truly is not. Our boys took great pride in paying for their own things. I mean, they used discernment in their choices.   And they took great care of those toys that they bought. There was a sense of ownership and responsibility to it. This was not negative.   It was truly positive and taught them much more than just about money.   Laura Dugger: (42:22 - 42:41) Well, and it's such a great real-world experience. I've never heard someone teach like this before, where you broke it down so specifically. But really, it reflected how they would handle money as adults.   And so, I think it's brilliant. And I'm wondering if you have any other practical recommendations that we haven't covered yet.   Markie Castle: (42:43 - 45:07) I would give a few. So, in their allowance, I put the cash in clear containers labeled so that they could see what they had. When they were older, we moved it to paper because I wanted them to be taught about how banks work.   Another couple of things. We never had issues going through candy aisles or going to events. We would pay for the tickets.   If they wanted to buy a snack like at Six Flags or something, they could. But they'd have to use their own money. Now, we're not cruel.   We would buy lunch for them. But if they wanted that $10 soft pretzel, they needed to buy it. Another thing, if they received money for a birthday gift, we felt that that was all theirs to spend.   Because to me, that gift, you know, if they were given a toy, we wouldn't split that toy up and give 10% to charity. So, they could keep all the money and go and buy what they wanted. One other thing, and some people may find this controversial, but I would suggest getting a credit card for your children as soon as you can while they are living with you.   And then you can give them the guidance that they need. Our son learned from an early age that you only charge items that you know you will be able to pay off at the end of the month. A debit card is good too, that they need to have that money in there.   But we liked setting the habit of paying off the credit card every month. A debit card would say, you can't slide this card unless you have that money in the bank. Either way, I would highly recommend you get your children something so you can give them the guidance of how to use it.   We knew people who wouldn't allow their children to date until they were 18. And my thought was, I don't want to give my children the go ahead to date when they go off to college. I wanted to be able to guide them.   So, we said, when you're 16, you can date. And then we were able to guide them and teach them along the way.   Laura Dugger: (45:08 - 45:14) That's so good. And can you think of anything else that you want to make sure we don't overlook today?   Markie Castle: (45:15 - 45:51) After counseling and mentoring many couples who have asked us for help, I realized that financial difficulties and marriage issues go hand in hand. That puts a stress in a marriage that comes out in other ways. If someone is having financial issues, you need to get help.   I would also say to teach your children so they are raised with a God-honoring respect for money. 1 Timothy 6:10 doesn't state that money is the root of all evil. It states that “the love of money is the root of all evil.”   Laura Dugger: (45:52 - 45:59) Well, I love all of the practical tips you've shared. And do you have any other favorite stories that come to mind?   Markie Castle: (46:00 - 48:23) One that is particularly close to me is we had very, very close friends who actually my husband worked under him for many years. But we were very close. And in fact, we moved together and with my husband's job and very close.   He was an exec, a cat, very high up. And making more money was the most important thing. Climbing that corporate ladder.   And suddenly he just realized how unhappy he was. He also put his children at bay because he worked so much. He needed to have the better cars, the better house, the better everything.   And one evening, there's a knock at the door. We weren't expecting him. And they were just standing there.   And he just said, “Can we talk?” And he came in and he looked at us and said, “When is enough??” And he had tears in his eyes.   And he knew that money was driving him at the cost of his marriage, although they were still together, but at the cost of the relationship with his children. And he said, “When is enough? And we talked to him.   We again shared the gospel, which we had shared before. And when you have Christ in your life, for me, that's enough. That's all I need is Christ.   He turned his life over to the Lord. He became a believer. He quit his job, which he had planned on.   And financially, he was great. And what he does now, he does a lot of mission work. He goes to different places that have been hit by a tornado.   And he's with the group that goes all over taking care of other people. And he is far, far wealthier than he ever was.   Laura Dugger: (48:24 - 48:48) Wow, Markie, that is so powerful. And what an incredible story to start to close our time together with. But I still have one final question for you, because our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce, because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment.   And so, this is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?   Markie Castle: (48:49 - 49:28) I would say beware of giving your children everything they want. And everything you think they need. Wanting is a great lesson to learn.   And as we've been told in the Bible, patience is a virtue. Having children earning their own money and spending it teaches them independence and develops them to be adults who are secure with the choices they have learned to make. This is far more than just teaching them about money.   Much more is developed within them.   Laura Dugger: (49:28 - 50:00) That is so good. And truly, Markie, this conversation, I can't wait to share it with all of our girls, with Isla and Kessler, too, being even just six and four. I think you have so many helpful practical takeaways.   And you're such a gifted teacher. So, it's been a joy to learn from you during this time. So, thank you, not only for applying scriptures to the way you interact with finances, but thank you for also sharing those applications with us today.   And thank you for being my guest.   Markie Castle: (50:01 - 50:10) Laura, it's truly been my pleasure. I appreciate you and I appreciate how God-centered you are and with this podcast.   Laura Dugger: (50:11 - 53:29) Wow, thank you so much. That encouragement means a lot. One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.   This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”   So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.   Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.   And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.   First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.   You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.   We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

We all know how important the church is in shaping a kid's faith — it's where foundations are built and seeds of belief take root. But let's be honest: sometimes our kids just aren't excited about going to church. It can start to feel more like a “have to” than a “get to.”In this episode, we sit down with Aaron Collier to talk about practical ways to help kids actually look forward to church. A father of two with over 14 years of experience in kids and camp ministry, Aaron shares wisdom and encouragement to help families make church a place their kids love to be.--Question of the Week: What are some of your favorite parts of going to church?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Aaron CollierProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

What happens when God calls your family to something new—and it feels a little scary? This week, we were joined by Andre Rose, who shares his family's story of trusting God through a big life transition. From the first moment he sensed God might be leading them somewhere new, to their decision to finally say “yes”, Andre talks about how they navigated uncertainty together as a family.If your family is walking through a change—or just wondering how to know if God is calling you to something new—this conversation will encourage and equip you to take that next step with confidence.--Question of the Week: What's the scariest part about a big change? What's the most exciting part?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Andre RoseProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

271. Ways to Engage with Youth, Teens, and Gen Z in Church and at Home with Dr. Kara Powell   *Transcription Below*   1 Thessalonians 2:8 NIV "so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well."   Kara Powell, PhD, is the chief of leadership formation at Fuller Theological Seminary, the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, and the founder of the TENx10 Collaboration. Named by Christianity Today as one of "50 Women to Watch," Kara serves as a youth and family strategist for Orange, and she also speaks regularly at national parenting and leadership conferences. Kara has authored or coauthored numerous books, including Faith Beyond Youth Group, 3 Big Questions That Shape Your Future, 3 Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, Growing With, Growing Young, The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family, and the entire Sticky Faith series.   Kara and her husband, Dave, are regularly inspired by the learning and laughter that come from their three young adult children.   Questions and Topics We Cover: What insights do you have to share on Gen-Z? When it comes to navigating intergenerational tensions, how can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? In your most recent book, entitled, Future-Focused Church, you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead. What led you to that realization?   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: 127 Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw 2 God-Honoring Relationship Between a Mother-in-Law and Daughter-in-Law with Author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, Annie Chapman   Stories Sampler from The Savvy Sauce Stories Series: 233 Stories Series: Surprises from God with Tiffany Noel 235 Stories Series: Ever-Present Help in Trouble with Kent Heimer 242 Stories Series: He Gives and Takes Away with Joyce Hodel 245 Stories Series: Miracles Big and Small with Dr. Rob Rienow 246 Stories Series: Experiencing God's Tangible Love with Jen Moore   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV) Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 2:13) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.    I am so honored to introduce my guest for today, Dr. Kara Powell. She is the Chief of Leadership Formation at Fuller Theological Seminary and the Executive Director of the Fuller Youth Institute. She's also founder of the 10x10 Collaboration and named by today as one of 50 women to watch. She is also extremely humble and insightful as she's going to discuss how we can leverage the power of stories and questions in our relationships at church and in our family and in beyond, and this is to model the life of Jesus. Make sure you also stay tuned in through the end because she's going to share a plethora of conversations and questions specifically to ask when we're engaging in conversation with young people, whether that's our own children and teens or our grandchildren or people in the community or our churches. It's some questions that you don't want to miss. Here's our chat.   Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kara.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:07 - 2:09) Oh, it's so good to be with you and your audience, Laura.   Laura Dugger: (2:09 - 2:13) Well, I'd love for you just to first give us a snapshot of your current life and share what's led you to the work that you get to do today.   Dr. Kara Powell: (2:14 - 4:06) Yeah, absolutely. So, let's see. I'll start with family. Dave and I have been married for I think 27-ish years, and we have three kids who are 24, 22, and 19.   Our youngest is a college freshman, and so we're technically empty nesters, but I actually like the term open nesters better because our kids come back, which we love. They come back in the summers and sometimes after college. And we actually, since I live in Pasadena, California, which had the fires in January, we actually have another 22-year-old young woman living with us, which we love.   So, we love having my husband, Dave, and I love having young people around, whether it's our own three kids or the young woman who's living with us. And I'm also a faculty member at Fuller Seminary, and while I certainly teach periodically, my main roles at Fuller actually have to do with leadership beyond Fuller. I'm the chief of leadership formation at Fuller, so I oversee all of Fuller's non-degree offerings, and then I'm the executive director of the Fuller Youth Institute, which is a research center that studies the faith of adolescents.   And I love that question, what got me to the work that I do today? Well, God would be the answer to that, but I was a long-term youth pastor here in Southern California at two different churches, loved teenagers, and Fuller was getting ready to start a new research center that was going to listen to the needs of parents and leaders, and then do research to answer those needs. And that really intrigued me, because I love young people, and I love research, and I love real-life ministry and family.   And so, I thought, well, I would love to hear more about that center, and I've been at Fuller now for over 20 years.   Laura Dugger: (4:07 - 4:17) Wow, that's incredible. And quick side note, I'm just so sorry for everything that you all endured in January with all the fires.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:17 - 4:39) Yeah, it's heartbreaking, and in some ways, in many ways, devastating. And I'm grateful for how God is working through churches and working through God's people. So, there's all sorts of bright spots in the midst of the pain.   But yes, please pray that churches and God's people would be salt and light, because it's going to be a few years of rebuilding.   Laura Dugger: (440 - 4:43) Yes, Lord Jesus, may that be true. Amen.   Dr. Kara Powell: (4:43 - 4:44) Yeah, thank you.   Laura Dugger: (4:45 - 5:17) And I know with your background, you've studied practical theology, and you also have this broad knowledge of psychology. But some churches haven't studied psychology as much, and so I think that typically leads to less of an appreciation for it. But my fear is that they may miss out if they completely ignore it.   So, will you share some of the benefits that you've seen that come from applying God's truth from any of theologies?   Dr. Kara Powell: (5:17 - 8:14) Yeah, yeah. Well, at Fuller Seminary, we have two schools. One is our School of Mission and Theology, which I'm an alum of and a faculty member in.   And the other is our School of Psychology. And so, Laura, you asked a question that's right at the heart of what we love about training leaders and therapists. And in fact, my favorite statue at Fuller, the title of it is Planting the Cross in the Heart of Psychology.   And that's exactly what we believe. So, you know, God's made us as holistic people. And I love thinking both about how is our theology driving us as well as our psychology.   And you know, one way to think about our psychology, a colleague of mine at Fuller talks about people's losses and longings. And that phrase has been so helpful for me. Like, what are people's losses and longings?   And how is that connected with how they're responding? So, so much of our work at the Fuller Youth Institute relates to young people. And I remember coaching a senior pastor who was experiencing a lot of resistance to prioritizing young people from senior adults.   And what the senior pastor realized is, of course, I shouldn't say of course, but in this particular church, when he was saying we need to prioritize young people, those over 60 felt like, wait, that means I'm not going to be a priority. People who are older often already feel that here in US culture. And so, no wonder that was intimidating, that was threatening, that felt like a loss to those senior adults.   And so, I love what the senior pastor ended up doing is he implemented one of our principles of change that we recommend, which is people support what they create. And so, if you want to build ownership, then how can you involve as many people as possible in creating whatever you're trying to develop? And so, the senior pastor went to the senior adults and apologized for sending a message that, you know, made them feel like they were not going to be priority.   And instead, he said, how can we make this church a church that your grandkids would love to be part of? And that connected with those, you know, post 60, most of whom were grandparents, whether their grandkids live locally, or, you know, globally, they wanted their church to be a place where their grandkids and other young people would connect. And so, you know, he turned senior adults feeling like they were peripheral, to really feeling like they were partners in what God was doing in the church.   And so, yes, I would invite us all to think about what are people's losses and longings? And how is that contributing to how they're responding to whatever we're all experiencing?   Laura Dugger: (8:15 - 10:20) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time?   Winshape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life. From premarital to parenting to the empty nest phase, there is an opportunity for you. Winshape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly, so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of Winshape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and more.   I've stayed on Winshape before and I can attest to their generosity, food and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, windshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org/S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Well, Kara, you've also done so much research on young people and just in general, I'd love to hear what insights do you have on Gen Z?   Dr. Kara Powell: (10:20 - 14:16) Yeah, yeah. Well, we at the Fuller Youth Institute, we have spent a lot of time studying and doing research on Gen Z, which tends to be those who are 14, 15 and up. Our very youngest teenagers are all actually now Gen Alpha, but we'll talk about Gen Z.   And as we've looked at the research, we've landed on three words which we think well describe Gen Z. First, they are anxious. And if we look at young people today, they do have unprecedented levels of mental health challenges, anxiety, depression, stress, even suicidal thoughts.   And so, we do a lot of training to help parents and leaders understand mental health and how they can be a safe space and get young people the help they need. So, this is an anxious generation. This is an adaptive generation.   This generation is so creative and entrepreneurial and visionary. You know, while there's a lot of downsides to technology, technology also helps young people know more about what's wrong in the world and sometimes take steps to make what is wrong right and restore God's justice to our world. And so, this is an adaptive and creative generation.   And then in addition to being anxious and adaptive, this is a diverse generation. Here in the U.S., we crossed a line in 2020. In the midst of everything else that happened in 2020, we crossed a line where now 50% of those under 18 are young people of color.   So, for your audience to just keep that in mind that 50% of those under 18 are white and 50% are young people of color and that percentage of young people of color is likely going to continue to grow. So, I would say those are three key attributes to this generation. And then, you know, when it comes to what this generation is experiencing spiritually, I really appreciate what my friend and fellow podcaster Carey Nieuwhof has described with young people that they are both in revival and retreat.   And, you know, we see data for both. There's so much that's encouraging about how young people are responding to Jesus. They're open to Jesus.   We're seeing this especially on college campuses. They're responding in mass on college campuses in some really beautiful ways. Both InterVarsity and Crew are seeing that.   But then this generation is also in some ways distancing themselves from the institutional church. Springtide Research Institute did some study of 13- to 25-year-olds and found that 13- to 25-year-olds in the U.S. are almost three times as likely to say they've been hurt by organized religion as trust organized religion. So, our 13- to 25-year-olds are distrustful, a little cynical about institutional religion.   And so, we have our work cut out for us to build trust back. And let me just say, sadly, we have earned young people's lack of trust by the way that by our moral failures, by the way that we have not been as loving as Jesus wants us to be and as young people want us to be. And so, the good news is the way that we re-earn trust with young people is by little acts of kindness and consistency.   So, anybody listening can rebuild trust with a young person. The research on trust shows it's not about heroic acts. It's about sending a text and saying, hey, I'm praying for you.   It's about remembering a young person's name at church. It's about showing up at a young person's soccer game. So, in the midst of this generation and being both revival and retreat, there are practical steps that any adult can take.   Laura Dugger: (14:17 - 14:36) Wow, that's so good. You've got ideas now coming to me for how to pour into even the youth group. This is probably a very random idea, but how great would it be to have a Google calendar of all of their events and then whoever in the church is available to go support? That would just be a practical way.   Dr. Kara Powell: (14:36 - 15:45) Okay, so, Laura, you have just named actually one of my favorite ideas that a church that is here in Los Angeles is doing. They created a Google calendar and volunteers as well as parents can add information. But then what this church did, they started with a Google calendar and then it's a church of about 300 people.   And so, they have now started every Sunday morning. They have a slide with what's happening in young people's lives for the next week. So-and-so is in a play.   So-and-so has a basketball game. So-and-so has a Boy Scout activity. And so, adults in the church, often senior adults who have some extra time, are showing up at kids' events.   Plus, every week they're prioritizing young people. So, when you're a young person in that church and every week there's a slide about you and your friends and what's happening, that says something to the young people sitting there. So, yeah, you're-I actually love that idea.   And especially for smaller churches, I think that's one of the big advantages of smaller churches is we can be more intimate and caring. So, yes, let's please do that.   Laura Dugger: (15:46 - 16:00) Oh, that's so good. I love hearing how that played out. And now I'm also curious because you mentioned it's Gen Alpha behind.   Do you have any insight onto them as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:00 - 16:27) Well, you're going to have to have me back because we are just-we received a grant from the Lilly Endowment, who's funded much of our research to study Gen Alpha. And they're just getting old enough that we really can, quite honestly. And so, like literally this week we are working on survey questions for Gen Alpha.   And we'll have more in the next year about what's similar between Gen Z and Gen Alpha, as well as what's different. So, I'd rather wait and save that for later.   Laura Dugger: (16:28 - 16:34) That sounds great. I'm especially interested in that generation. That is all four of our daughters would fall within that. So, I can't wait to hear your findings.   Dr. Kara Powell: (16:34 - 16:36) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (16:38 - 17:15) And I think it's also bringing up, I'm going to link to a previous episode, Generational Differences with Hayden Shaw, because I don't know if you feel this same way. I think millennials especially got pegged as the generational bias put on them was actually confused with their life stage. And Hayden's the one who wrote about that and drew that to our attention.   So, that's helpful to sift out as we're thinking of young people too, because sometimes older generations can look down on younger generations and see some of the shortcomings. Do you see that as well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (17:16 - 18:55) Oh, for sure. For sure. I think we compare young people to who we are now instead of remembering our 13 and 19 and 25 year old self.   And so, I mean, that's one of our biggest pieces of advice when it comes to young people is instead of judging them, how do we journey with them? How do we really empathize with what they're experiencing? And when we are tempted to judge young people, let's just start at, well, let's just stop and ask ourselves, would we want to be a young person today?   It's so very challenging to be a young person today. I mean, mental health alone, like if I think about my tendency to, as a teenager myself, to compare myself with others, to be worried that I was left out. I mean, if there was a cell phone that showed me everything my friends were doing without me, and I'm stuck at home, like no wonder that young people feel more anxious.   I think I would really be struggling with anxiety if I was a teenager now. I mean, honestly, even at my age, I don't check social media on Friday night or Saturday night, because I might be, Dave and I might be having leftovers and either working or watching a movie on Netflix. And I go on social media and my friends are out with their husbands and having this phenomenal time.   And at my age, that makes me feel insecure, let alone imagine being a 13 or 18- or 22-year-old and navigating that. So, so yes, I think how can we empathize instead of finger point?   Laura Dugger: (18:56 - 19:12) Oh, and you write about how to navigate intergenerational tensions. How can we practically turn our differences into superpowers and unite together? And I guess, especially in the church?   Dr. Kara Powell: (19:12 - 22:39) Yeah, yeah, great question. So, one of our books is called Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager. And we studied young people to try to understand the deep questions driving them.   And we landed on three. Identity, who am I? Belonging, where do I fit? And purpose, what difference can I make?   Identity, belonging and purpose. And those are that's such a helpful framework to understand young people and to empathize with them.   First off, I would say all of us are wrestling with identity, belonging and purpose. And when I feel emotional heat about an issue, if I feel insecure about something, it's usually because it's pricking at my identity, belonging or purpose. And so, that helps us realize that we navigate those questions, too.   But then also for the we who are parents, stepparents, grandparents, mentors of young people, you know, if a young person we care about is doing something that feels a little odd, a little askew, a little bit, that's not like them. If we can take a step back and ask, OK, what are they wrestling with? Is it identity?   Is it belonging? Is it purpose? That helps us empathize and know how to either ask a better question or, you know, give a little bit of hope rooted in whether that's rooted in scripture or in our own experience.   And so, yes, with our with our three kids, when I take a step back and ask, OK, they're saying something that feels odd or unlike them or I'm surprised this is provoking this response in them. Is it is it their identity, belonging or purpose that's at play here? It's like the penny drops and I come to understand.   So, I would say, you know, if we can wear those identity, belonging and purpose lenses, that really helps us understand young people. The other thing and, you know, I'm a professor, so I would give myself about a C plus in what I'm going to share next. OK, so if this is something I'm working on, it's this it's never make a statement if you can ask a question instead, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead.   And so, the more that we can ask questions about what young people are experiencing, like why, why, you know, in a very nonjudgmental way, like I'm just curious. And I start a lot of my questions with that. I'm curious.   I'm curious, like what does tick tock mean to you? Then, you know, that that can open up a real conversation instead of them feeling like we're somehow judging them for their technological use. I was proud of myself yesterday.   Like I said, I give myself about a C plus on this. But yesterday I was talking to my daughter about something. And I asked her, like, well, because she had stepped up to lead something.   And so instead of offering my advice, I said to her, well, you know, what do you think you did well as you were leading? And is there anything that you would want to do differently? And we were in the line of a fast-food place.   And I thought, yes, way to go. I ask questions instead of making statements, instead of offering my opinion. So, and sometimes we have to offer our opinion, for sure.   But just as a general rule, we can ask questions, especially the older our kids get. They respond to that better than us always sharing what we think.   Laura Dugger: (22:39 - 22:47) Well, and I also think you're even modeling this in the way you share stories is humility. So, when you partner that together, that seems very powerful.   Dr. Kara Powell: (22:48 - 23:53) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. My one of my kids said something so interesting. At Mother's Day, my husband asked each of them to share something that they appreciated about me and which was wonderful to receive that affirmation.   And one of them and I I'm not going to reveal the gender here because I haven't asked this child permission to share this. But what my child said was that I was asking them for advice in a way that made it feel more like we were becoming friends. And I had asked this child for advice in the last couple of months about a couple situations.   And so, again, my kids are 19, 22 and 24. So, you know, it's different with younger kids. But for those of us with older kids, it was significant to this child of mine that I was asking them for advice.   And so, I want to keep doing that. I want to keep doing that. So, because I truly do want their perspective.   Yeah, I truly do want their perspective. And it means something to them when I do.   Laura Dugger: (23:54 - 25:28) Yes, absolutely. And I'm thinking back, this may have been like episode three back in 2018. But I talk with Annie Chapman.   She had written the book, The Mother-in-Law Dance. And what you're saying, she pointed out that what makes us a great parent and especially a great mother, the first half of our children's life or the first portion of our children's life at home, it's the opposite of the latter years. And so, you're right.   You're not probably going to ask your five-year-old for advice. But at your kids' phases, that is significant. Did you know you could receive a free email with monthly encouragement, practical tips and plenty of questions to ask to take your conversation a level deeper, whether that's in parenting or on date nights?   Make sure you access all of this at TheSavvySauce.com by clicking the button that says Join Our Email List so that you can follow the prompts and begin receiving these emails at the beginning of each month. Enjoy.    This discussion with young people is also tied into your recent and optimistic book.   So, I'll hold it up here. It's in and you did co-author this with Jake Mulder and Raymond Chang. So, it's entitled Future-Focused Church, and you begin with writing that the brightest days of the church are still ahead.   So, what led you to this optimistic realization?   Dr. Kara Powell: (25:28 - 26:23) Yeah. Yeah. Well, first, God, you know, this is where being a practical theologian comes into play.   Like I'm always trying to understand what is God up to in this situation and just the way that God is constantly working, redeeming, recreating. So, you know, that's the heart of my optimism and Jake and Ray's optimism as fellow co-authors. And then also Future-Focused Church is based on research we did with over a thousand churches where we journeyed with them in the change process and just the way that they were able to make changes that made them more loving, made them more hospitable to young people.   So, it's, you know, it's people like your listeners and churches like those that your audience is part of. That's what made us optimistic is to see how God is working through actual churches.   Laura Dugger: (26:25 - 26:40) I love that. And even near the beginning, it was on page 26, you succinctly gave a definition of a future-focused church. So, will you share that definition and also elaborate on each one of the facets?   Dr. Kara Powell: (26:40 - 29:17) Yeah, yeah. So, it starts with a group of Jesus followers. And, you know, if you look at the original Greek for church, ekklesia, it's not a building.   We use that phrase incorrectly when we say, you know, I'll meet you at church and we mean a building. It's actually those who are called out or from. So, it's always people in the New Testament.   And so, we believe a church is a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. And that's really important to us is this isn't about what Kara, Jake and Ray think you should do or what the church down the street is doing or even what your denomination is doing. It's you seeking God's direction together.   So, and we could have stopped there, honestly, a group of Jesus followers who seek God's direction together. But then because of the time we've spent with over a thousand churches, because of our commitment to young people, because of what we see happening these days, we added three what we call checkpoints, three things that we think should be priorities for churches these days. One is relationally discipling young people.   And, you know, we were intentionally using the words relationally discipling. It's not just entertaining. It's not just standing near young people at worship service.   But how are we actually investing in young people? And then secondly, modeling kingdom diversity. Again, if you look at our country ethnically and racially, we are a diverse country.   And so, how can we model that? How can our churches reflect what our neighborhoods are? And then thirdly, tangibly loving our neighbors.   Jesus said that, you know, they will know that we are Christians by our love for another, for each other, as well as our love for neighbors. And so, how can we make sure that we are really a place that is salt and light? As I mentioned, you know, we are trying to be in Pasadena as churches these days as we're recovering from the fires.   So, we encourage churches to look at those three checkpoints in particular. But then again, we want churches to figure out what God is inviting them towards. So, maybe that's more prayer.   Maybe that's being more involved globally in evangelism, you know, whatever it might be. Seek that direction together. But then what we try to do is give a map to get there, because a lot of churches know what they want to change, but don't know how to bring about change.   And so, that's actually what the bulk of our book is about, is helping leaders know how to move their church from here to God's direction for them.   Laura Dugger: (29:18 - 30:27) And that's incredible that you walked with so many churches through that process. But I was especially encouraged by you being partial to sharing stories. And so, we recently did an entire stories series on The Savvy Sauce, and it was so compelling and faith building.   I can link to a sample of those in the show notes. But you write about stories shaping culture. And I just I want to share your quote and then ask you how we can actually implement this.   So, your quote is from page 57, where you write, “Organizational culture is best communicated and illustrated by stories. As well modeled by Jesus, one of the best ways to shift the culture of a church is through the disciplined and consistent telling of clear and compelling stories that invite a different culture and way of being.” So, Kara, how have you seen this done well?   Dr. Kara Powell: (30:27 - 33:10) Yeah, yeah. Well, I think about whatever system we're in, whether it's our families or whether it's our churches or whatever organization we're in. Yeah, our stories become really the key messages of what our culture is.   And so, I want to go back to that church that we were talking about that had a Google calendar and now does a Sunday announcement every week of kids' events. Well, that church is also capturing stories of the 81-year-old who showed up at the 16-year-old soccer game, who didn't even know her all that well, but just had a free Thursday afternoon and knew that she was playing. And the pastor who was also on the sidelines at that soccer game, who ended up talking to both the parents of the 16-year-old and the 81-year-old.   And so, that became a story for that church of how different generations are supporting young people. And so, that pastor has told that story multiple, multiple times. You know, I just think about in our family, our kids love hearing our stories.   And that's part of how they I mean, it's a big, a big theme and how they come to know what it means to be a Powell. So, you know, earlier I said, you know, I said, never make a statement if you can ask a question instead. I think the exception to that, Laura, is if we're going to tell a story because stories communicate so much.   One of our one of our children is struggling with being anxious about something. And I was anxious last night. I never lose sleep.   I so rarely lose sleep. But I did last night. I was up for about an hour and a half in the middle of the night, finally ended up having a prayer time.   And that helped me go back to sleep. But I'm looking forward to telling my child, who's also struggling with anxiety, that story of me experiencing some, you know, 3:00 a.m. anxiety and what eventually helped me is kind of reflecting on a mantra I feel like God's given me. And I want to share that with my child, not to nag them, but just to let them know that, you know, in our family, this is how we want to try to respond to anxiety.   And maybe my story can be helpful for you the next time that you're struggling with it, which might be today. So, so, yes, the more that we can share our present and our past experiences, whether it's as individuals, families, organizations, the more that we communicate the cultural values that we want.   Laura Dugger: (33:11 - 33:45) That's so good. And I love how you're relating that to parents as well, because from the very youngest ages, tell me a story. And if it's like if we remember a story of them when they're a child, they just grasp onto that.   And we when we're tired at the end of the night, if we run out of our stories, we love even just reading aloud true stories of other people, too. OK, and I'm partnering then thinking of stories and one of your facets about I love how you said it. I'd love for you to repeat. Is it strategically discipling, relationally discipling?   Dr. Kara Powell: (33:45 - 33:46) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (33:46 - 35:03) OK, so my brother and sister's church, I'm just going to highlight theirs because I love something that both of them are doing with our nieces and nephews. They just have them, the youth, write down three names of somebody in a different generation above theirs that they would enjoy getting to know, spending time with. And then they get matched with one of those people and they enter a yearlong mentorship relationship.   And I'm just thinking, one, their mentors all happen to be open nesters. And the male and female who have mentored our nieces and nephews, the female took our nieces, would send them a copy of a recipe, say, get these groceries this week. I'm coming to your house on Tuesday and we're going to cook all of this together and have it ready for your family dinner.   Just so practical and that they just build a love for each other. And then a similar thing with our nephews, where whatever that mentor's skill was, he was great at even making, I think, wood fired pizzas and just showing them practical skills, but relationally investing. And you see the youth's growth and maturity from that discipleship.   Dr. Kara Powell: (35:03 - 36:17) So, yeah, that's awesome. And not only the young people, but the adults, too. Like what's been so great, Laura, is, you know, while much of our research has looked at how adults change young people and how churches change young people, every time we study that, we see how young people change adults and churches, too.   So, you know, for that male and female who are mentoring your nieces and nephews, how they come to understand more about themselves, God, life, scripture, as they're spending time with young people, that's just really, really powerful. So, I also want to highlight, I love how your example, how it starts by asking young people, like who are some adults that you would like to spend more time with that you look up to? And, you know, we would do that with our kids when we needed babysitters.   Like who are some adults that you would like to get to know and how wonderful then that we could ask those adults, especially if they were of babysitting age, to come and be with our kids. And that way we were getting the babysitting we needed and our kids were getting the mentoring that they needed. So, so, yes, I think, you know, giving a young person some agency and who they spend time with, that's really beautiful in that example.   Laura Dugger: (36:18 - 36:21) Oh, that's and that's genius for a family life.   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:21 - 36:22) Yeah, exactly, exactly.   Laura Dugger: (36:23 - 36:39) Well, you also share some other helpful tips for churches, such as considering questions like, would anyone miss our church if it closed down? So, do you have any other practical tips that you want to make sure we don't miss?   Dr. Kara Powell: (36:39 - 40:19) Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, I'll offer a few questions that we have found really helpful. And I'll start with questions when your kids are in elementary and then I'll give a couple of questions when your kids are older.   So, so one of the questions that we love asking at dinner when our kids were in elementary was, how did you see God at work today? And I will say that when I first raised that question, one of my daughters said, “Well, mommy, I can't answer that question. And I said, why not?”   She said, “Well, I don't have a job. How did you see God at work today? So, then we had to say, well, how did you see God working today?”   And I, you know, and equally important as our kids asking that question is that we were, excuse me, as our kids answering that question is that we were answering that question. And so, so, you know, any way that you can involve meaningful sharing, whether it's a dinner, whether it's a bedtime and that you are sharing, too. So, so that that's been a great one for our family.   And then when your kids get older, a couple come to mind. One is two pairs of questions actually come to mind. One is, you know, the phrase never make a statement.   Maybe you can ask the question said sometimes we do need to offer our advice as parents, our perspective. And I have found when I do that with my kids is now that they're late young adults, if I ask them first, well, what do you disagree with and what I said and give them an opportunity to critique what I said, then and then I ask a second question. OK, well, what might you agree with and what I said?   They're far more open to sharing what they agree with if they first have had a chance to critique me. So, I offer that as in those moments when you do need to offer your opinion or perspective, how can we still make it a dialogue? One way is to invite your kid to critique you.   And they'll probably point out things that you do need to reconsider, or at least it's good to hear those from your young person. Another pair of questions that that I have found so helpful with our kids is as they get older and really come to own their own faith. I love asking our kids, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe?   And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe? So, what do you now believe that you think I don't believe? And what do you no longer believe that you think I still believe?   What I love about that is that it's making overt that our faith is going to continue to change and grow. And that's true for all of us. And it also makes differences discussable, because I'd far rather know how my kids' faith is changing and how it's different or similar than mine than not know.   And, you know, as we've asked our kids those questions over the years, sometimes their answer is like, not much has changed. Like, you know, but other times they do have different opinions that they want to share with me. And then I try to have that non-defensive, oh, OK, well, I'm curious.   Then again, starting phrase with I'm curious and then asking a question has given us some of the best conversations. So, you can get really tangible. How did you see God at work today?   But then as your kids get older, ask questions that that are more open-ended and can help you really understand where your kids are at.   Laura Dugger: (40:20 - 41:15) I love that.    And I'm just thinking if people are listening like I listen to podcasts, it's when I'm on the go, when I'm doing a walk in the morning or if I'm cleaning around the house. And if you don't get a chance to take notes, we do have transcripts available now for all these episodes, but I would think so many people have written in about dialogue and questions for teenagers and how to handle.   And I love the way you responded to all of that. So, even grab the transcript and write down those questions and try them at dinner or bedtime tonight. But then even thinking of churches for practical tips, what do you have as far as hospitality and the impact that it could make if we're building relationships through hospitality?   But you also call out three ways to build relationships through sharing meals, sharing stories and sharing experiences.   Dr. Kara Powell: (41:15 - 43:08) Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think you've named it, Laura. How do we have a hospitable, open heart and open churches?   And I just want to go back to this question. Like, is our church a place that our kids and our grandkids would want to be part of? And if we keep asking that question, I think it helps us prioritize the next generation and make space for them at our meals, within our stories and within our experiences.   Now, I will say this, you know, I talk so much about intergenerational relationships and bringing the generations together. Like, I do think there's a time and a place for 16-year-olds to be on their own and 46-year-olds to be on their own and 76-year-olds to be on their own. It's just finding that balance of when do we bring all the generations together?   And then when do we want to have those special life development, life stage development conversations ourselves? And most churches are swinging far more toward we keep generations separate and need to swing the pendulum back to how can we have shared meals together? How can we serve together in ways that are shared?   And, you know, I'll just say this last thought when it comes to sharing experiences, especially those that are service. You know, a lot of churches have young people who are serving. They're in children's ministry, they're in sound, they're in tech, etc.   And that's awesome. And I think the question becomes, like, how can that young person be more than just a warm body who passes out graham crackers? And how can I think, OK, I'm teaching third graders and I'm also trying to mentor this 15-year-old who's working with me with the third graders and same with sound.   So, you know, anytime you're interacting with young people, it's an opportunity to influence, especially as you're sharing more about yourself.   Laura Dugger: (43:10 - 43:15) Love that. And you seem like an idea person as well. So, I'm going to bounce another idea.   Dr. Kara Powell: (43:16 - 43:16) Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (43:16 - 43:45) What I'm gathering is obviously we're keeping Jesus at the center and you're not downplaying the need for scripture or Bible study. And those kind of things but also adding there is value in I'm thinking shared experience. Specifically, I'm thinking of pickleball.   It's something that appeals to a wide age range. What if your church had invested in a pickleball sport to do something that could bring people together? So, what are your thoughts on that?     Dr. Kara Powell: (43:45 - 45:22) Yeah. Yeah. Pickleball, you know, senior adults who need tech help from teenagers.   That's another great way to connect people. I mean, any kind of shared interest 1 Thessalonians 2:8 is such an important scripture passage for me when it comes to discipleship. And Paul writes that we were delighted to share with you not just the gospel, but our very lives.   And so, how can we share life, whether it's pickleball, whether it's pizza? I'm running out of alliteration here. I was trying to do something else that started with P.   And for leaders who are listening, how can you take what you're already doing and make it more intergenerational? So, that's the other thing we like to tell churches is whether it's pickleball or whether it's well, we're already serving at the local homeless center to help people who are unhoused. Well, instead of that only being a youth event, maybe make that an all church event and see if adults come who can be mentoring young people.   So, you know, I love what one church did. Many churches have done this, actually, when they're looking for small group for homes where small groups can be for young people instead of going to like the parents of the teenagers. What if we go to our senior adults or our open or slash empty nesters and see if they'll open their homes?   Because then it's bringing more adults into contact with young people. And those adults who open their homes can also open their lives. So, yeah, just continuing to ask, how can we make this more of a connection across generations?   Goodness.   Laura Dugger: (45:22 - 45:39) And you have so many ideas and some of these are mentioned in this book, but you've also written many more helpful resources. So, will you give us an overview of the other books that you've authored and share a bit of what we might find if we read? Dr. Kara Powell: (45:39 - 46:42) Yeah. So, our most recent book, as you've mentioned, is Future Focus Church, and that's especially geared to help leaders know how to move a ministry from where they are now to where God wants it to be. It's been so great to journey with leaders through that.   Probably our best book that offers a ton of questions you can ask young people is Three Big Questions That Change Every Teenager, where we get into identity, belonging and purpose, which I mentioned. And we have over 300 questions that an adult, whether it's a family member or a mentor or a neighbor or congregant can use with young people. And then the last one I'll offer is The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family comes out of our previous Sticky Faith research.   How do you help young people have faith that lasts? We have a special chapter in that book for grandparents. So, for any grandparents who are listening, that whole book and that chapter is a great resource.   But also we have had a lot of parents, stepparents say that The Sticky Faith Guide for Your Family has been one of their favorite books.   Laura Dugger: (46:43 - 47:02) That's incredible. I'll have to link to those in the show notes for today's episode. But I'm sure you're aware we are called The Savvy Sauce because Savvy is anonymous with practical knowledge.   And so, as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Dr. Kara Powell: (47:03 - 48:16) That's a really good question, Laura. OK, I'll say I'll share the first thing that came to mind when you asked it. Gosh, probably 10 or 12 years ago, I read a book and from the book I adapted a phrase for my work life and my personal life, which is if it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   As a busy mom, as a busy employee, as a busy leader, I see potential in so many things. And so, I want to say yes to so many things. And then I end up tired.   I end up empty. I end up not being able to say yes to something maybe better that comes a month later because I've already committed to, you know, plan my seventh graders camping trip or give a talk or, you know, whatever it might be. And so, that phrase, we made it a six-month experiment in the Foley Youth Institute as well as in our family.   Like it's not a definite yes, it's a no. And it really helped us say no to things, trim and I think find a much more manageable pace. So, as we pray, as we pray, it's not a definite yes, it's a no.   That's been game changing for me.   Laura Dugger: (48:17 - 48:57) Well, I love how much you've modeled applying these things at your work or in our church, but also in our family life. It's all transferable. And Kara, this has just been a super special conversation because you've been on my list to have a conversation with for over a decade, probably since I got my hands on Sticky Faith.   And I just appreciate we've been talking as we were praying before we were recording. You desire so much, not only for young people, but for all people to experience this abundant life in Christ. And I'm so grateful for you and just want to say thank you for being my guest.   Dr. Kara Powell: (48:57 - 49:03) Oh, my pleasure, Laura. And thanks to you and how you serve your audience as well as our world. It's been an honor.   Laura Dugger: (49:04 - 52:19) One more thing before you go, have you heard the term gospel before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you, but it starts with the bad news.    Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.    We need a savior, but God loved us so much. He made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.    That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life. We could never live and died in our place for our sin.    This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished. If we choose to receive what he has done for us, Romans 10:9 says, “that if you confess with your mouth, Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    So, you pray with me now. Heavenly father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you.    Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life? We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus name we pray.   Amen. If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me. So, me for him, you get the opportunity to live your life for him.    And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you're ready to get started.    First, tell someone, say it out loud, get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes and Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible and I love it.    You can start by reading the book of John. Also get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too. So, feel free to leave a comment for us here. If you did make a decision to follow Christ, we also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.    And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “in the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

269. Questions for More Connection and Laughter in Marriage with Casey and Meygan Caston   *Disclaimer* This episode contains some mature themes and listener discretion is advised.   2 Corinthians 1:4 NIRV "He comforts us in all our troubles. Now we can comfort others when they are in trouble. We ourselves receive comfort from God."   *Transcript Below*   Questions and Topics We Cover: Will you share three of the questions from your most recent book, specifically the ones people have told you unlocked the best conversations in their own marriage? You say you're an unlikely couple to help support marriages. Will you share a glimpse of your own backstory? What are a handful of ideas for ways couples can strengthen their connection with one another?   Casey and Meygan Caston are the Co-Founders of Marriage365. Casey and Meygan were perfect examples of what not to do in marriage. Three years into marriage, they found themselves having racked up more than $250,000 in debt, fighting constantly, and were ready to call it quits. Despite the 12 failed marriages between their parents, they knew this wasn't the legacy they wanted for themselves or their children. They began reading and educating themselves on how to do marriage the right way. The result of their journey is Marriage365, where they millions of people worldwide through their books, social media, retreats, and their online streaming service, Marriage365.   Marriage 365 Website Marriage 365 App Marriage 365 Books Marriage 365 Coaching   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Sample of Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce: 4 Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen 5 Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau  6 Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma 89 Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery 108 Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder 135 Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand 155 Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1 156 Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2 158 Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta 165 Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas 186 Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler 218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: An Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma Special Patreon Release: Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder 252 Maximizing Sexual Connection as Newlyweds to Long Term Marriages and Recovering from a Sexless Marriage with Dr. Clifford & Joyce Penner   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook, Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcript*   Music: (0:00 – 0:11)   Laura Dugger: (0:12 - 1:15)  Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse.   To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org.    Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Casey and Meygan.   Casey Caston:  Thanks for having us. Excited to be here.   Laura Dugger: So, thrilled to have both of you, and let's just dive right into one of your sweet spots. How can open-ended questions change a marriage?   Casey Caston: (1:16 - 2:33)  Yeah, well, if you think about when we first met somebody that we fell in love with, fell attracted to that first date, as you're sitting across the table, you are looking at that person with so much curiosity. Like, who is this person? What are their hopes and their dreams and their life experiences?   What are they afraid of? Where are they going in life? And that curiosity drove us to ask really good open-ended questions.   Like, tell me more about yourself. It's funny because we were just reading in Proverbs this morning that in a man's heart, he has a purpose, but a man of understanding draws from the deep wells to pull that out. And I just, I always think about how a great question plums the deep wells of a man's heart or woman's heart.   And that attraction, that energy we feel, helps us with asking great questions. But then what happens is when we get married and we move into the wash, rinse, repeat of childcare and chores and, you know, the mundaneness of going to work, coming home, dinner, like, it can really sap all of the romance out of a relationship. And so, what happens is we fall into asking really boring questions.   Meygan Caston: (2:33 - 2:34)  Like, how was your day?   Casey Caston: (2:34 - 2:36)  What's picking up the kids?   Meygan Caston: (2:36 - 2:37)  What's for dinner? Yeah.   Casey Caston: (2:38 - 3:18)  So, we realize that when the well is dry, so to speak, you're not asking those great questions. We need prompts. We need an outside prompt because I don't think naturally we would ask great questions to spark this, you know, connecting conversation.   And I will tell you too, that if you just dropped in and, you know, just ask your spouse, like, “Hey, so, tell me some boundaries we need to set up with your parents.” People are going to be like, “Excuse me, where did that question come from? And what's the question behind the question?   What's your motivation here?” But those are conversations we need to have. We just need prompts.   So, yeah.   Laura Dugger: (3:19 - 3:32)  Well, I love that response. And I'm also curious after working with so many married couples, what have you seen as that connection between these amazing prompts for open-ended questions and emotional intimacy?   Meygan Caston: (3:34 - 4:20)  Yeah. Well, kind of like what Casey was mentioning about, um, just that curiosity of getting to know each other. I think the other part of asking those open-ended questions and having these deeper conversations is really about intentionality.   Like you still care about me. You still want to know about my heart. Well, for us, 25 years later, I still care about you.   I still love you. And I think that of course, as women, we long for that emotional connection. And I don't think that men realize it, but they actually long for that too.   And it's creating a safe place for spouses to share, to cry, to even, um, dream together about their future. And I think, again, if we don't give ourselves those opportunities and we're not intentional with that, we get stuck in the mundaneness of marriage.   Casey Caston: (4:20 - 5:03)  But, uh, and I would add to that, that curiosity, Meygan, I've talked about how curiosity is the pursuit of something. Right. And we all long to be desired to be pursued.   I mean, that is, that underlying communication is so powerful in relationships, because if you think about it, if you're not being pursued and your spouse isn't curious, I mean, that's like the, the heart of apathy. It's like, I don't care. And I know that people aren't intentionally trying to communicate that, but when you feel that, like my spouse doesn't really care about what I dream about or what I'm hoping to achieve this year, they just come home and they just watch TV or they're on their phone.   Meygan Caston: (5:04 - 5:18)  Right. That communicates a lot non-verbally. And so, that's why these open-ended questions are something that we should never stop being a learner of each other and of ourselves.   And that will provide that emotional intimacy.   Laura Dugger: (5:19 - 5:45)  That's so good. And obviously your resources are amazing. I would love, because you have these 365 Connecting Questions for Couples.   And so, I want to just hear maybe three of these questions that come to mind for you guys, especially as you've heard, these are the ones that tend to unlock something deeper in the conversation.   Meygan Caston: (5:46 - 6:07)  Absolutely. So, August 3rd is, are you someone who spends a lot of time in deep thought, processing things before making a decision, or do you tend to make quick decisions? Why or why not?   That question has genuinely sparked so much conversation between us and even like with our kids and other couples. Maybe you can explain why.   Casey Caston: (6:07 - 6:11)  Yeah. Well, I'm Mr. Impulsivity, so.   Meygan Caston: (6:11 - 6:29)  Yeah, you are. Where I, I don't, I wouldn't consider myself a deep thinker, but I definitely like to make pros and cons lists and think through things. But if you think about a dynamic between a husband and a wife, you know, there are so many decisions that you make together, small and large, your whole life, every day.   Casey Caston: (6:29 - 6:30)  Decision-making is huge in relationships.   Meygan Caston: (6:31 - 6:57)  And it's an everyday thing that couples are tackling. And it's important to know that no one is better than the other. It's not that a deep thinker is better than a more impulsive person. It's kind of more just naturally how you are. Have you always been this way? Do you like that about yourself?   Wow. You know, well, when it comes to these bigger decisions, I do spend, make more time, you know, thinking through and pros and cons. Oh, well, with small decisions, I'm more impulsive. I mean, you could just talk about that for hours and hours.   Casey Caston: (6:57 - 7:01) Yeah. But what's interesting is I tend to think more futuristic and big picture.   Meygan Caston: (7:01 - 7:01)  Yes.   Casey Caston: (7:01 - 7:03)  Even though I'm impulsive in the moment.   Meygan Caston: (7:03 - 7:05)  And I cannot, I can't do that.   Casey Caston: (7:05 - 7:06)  You are Ms. Realist.   Meygan Caston: (7:06 - 7:08)  Just tell me today, tell me this week.   Casey Caston: (7:09 - 7:10)  I can't think about this fun sponge.   Meygan Caston: (7:11 - 7:11)  Yes. Yeah.   Casey Caston: (7:12 - 7:15)  Because I'm like, let's dream big. And she's like, yeah, but what's happening today?   Meygan Caston: (7:16 - 7:49)  Yeah. Yeah. Another great question is January 18th.   How can we romance each other during the day in anticipation of sex? Because as we all know, us ladies, we need the foreplay. But again, I think that husbands also enjoy the foreplay.   But I don't think that couples are having these conversations. I think they think a foreplay is, well, once we enter into the bedroom, you know, and what we like to say is it's anything positive is foreplay. So, a thoughtful text, you know, a flirty I'm going to grab your hand to empty out the dishwasher.   Casey Caston: (7:49 - 7:50)  Amen.   Meygan Caston: (7:50 - 7:55)  Yeah. You know, it's those kinds of conversations. But like, I would never think of asking you that.   Casey Caston: (7:56 - 7:56)  Right.   Meygan Caston: (7:56 - 7:58)  Right. Thankfully for those.   Casey Caston: (7:58 - 8:10)  But as you know, Laura, like couples that need to talk about their sex life. And if you don't talk about your sex life, most oftentimes there's a lot of assumptions. And that leads to, you know, dysfunction.   Meygan Caston: (8:11 - 9:14)  Well, and missed expectations. Totally. Yeah. And then I have another question. April 25th is how do our differences help complement each other?   Oh, so, kind of another one of those things, like with making decisions. Every single couple has differences. And we always tell people Casey, and I are more different than alike.   I think people see us online and whatnot. And they hear, oh, we're both extroverts. We are. So, we have some similarities. We're both stubborn, very competitive, both competitive. But in the day-to-day operations of who Casey and Meygan are, we make decisions, we run our lives, run our business, run our business.   We are completely opposite. And what I think it's good to do for couples is to actually own your differences rather than shy away from them or make yourselves feel bad, like, oh, I wish we were the same. I get it.   You know, we actually are attracted to those things when we're dating. That's why opposites attract. But then when we get married, it's like, why doesn't he do everything the same way? I do it because I do it the right way. That's what we think. Right.   Casey Caston: (9:15 - 9:21)  Well, you heard the joke that marriage is about becoming one. And in the earlier years, it's about which one.   Meygan Caston: (9:21 - 10:14)  Yeah. Which one? Which figure out?   Yeah. And so, that question really allows you to identify your differences, but then go, how do they balance each other out? And I think for me, as someone who is organized, type A Casey's very spontaneous.   If we were both type A and structured, we wouldn't have a lot of fun. We really wouldn't. His spontaneity really brings out that side of me.   But if we were both spontaneous, our bills would never be paid, and we'd be broke. So, you know, I'm a I'm a saver. He's a spender.   You can see the balance in that. It's good that we're both those things. Right.   I'm on time. He's late. We could continue going on and on and on and on.   But I think that he's a risk taker. I'm a complete play it safer. And so, those really draw out a beautiful balance in our marriage versus trying to change one another.   So, I hope that question sparks listeners to really ask your spouse that and have fun with the conversation.   Laura Dugger: (10:15 - 11:03)  Well, you chose three great ones. I love it. And they draw out such different parts of our personality.   You highlighted where Casey's more futuristic. Meygan, you're more present. Some people will connect with questions that direct them more past oriented.   And so, our orientation to time comes out and the meta conversations, the talking like having the conversation about your conversation. Just so much goodness. And yes, especially with sexual intimacy.   So, many couples report that it is much harder to engage in conversation about sex rather than just have sex. And like you said, missed expectations can be one of the blow ups there, among many other things. So, you have questions that don't shy away from all forms of intimacy.   Meygan Caston: (11:04 - 11:10)  Yeah. And to also say we have a lot of fun questions, too. Like, tell me about what your bedroom looked like when you were a teenager.   Casey Caston: (11:11 - 11:12)  That's a great one. I love that one.   Meygan Caston: (11:12 - 11:47)  Let's talk couples. If you had a really hard day with the kids or at work, pick a fun question. You don't have to go by the date.   If you don't like the question, it's triggering, then flip to the next one. But going back to that emotional intimacy and connection that you were talking about, Laura, is you have to have those deep questions and those conversations. And you did when you were dating, because if you went on a date with your husband and you were like, hey, tell me, you know, what do you want to do when you retire?   And he was like, I don't know. Yeah, you'd be like snooze fest. This guy's boring, right?   Or if he was on his phone the whole time, there was something intriguing about your spouse.   Casey Caston: (11:47 - 11:48)  I don't know. I don't know.   Meygan Caston: (11:48 - 12:01)  Yeah, there was something intriguing about your spouse when you were dating and you were asking those questions that should never stop. Just like we hear that quote, never stop dating your spouse. Well, never stop learning about your spouse.   It's the same thing. Absolutely.   Laura Dugger: (12:02 - 12:16)  And I love how you two have such a humble approach because you say that you're a very unlikely couple to help support marriages. So, will you let us in on your own backstory?   Meygan Caston: (12:17 - 12:46)  Yeah, well, can I just start off by saying this? We live in a county that has one of the highest divorce rates in the nation. So, it's 72 percent divorce rate where we live.   We also come from there's 12 marriages between our parents. So, we come from so much divorce and trauma. And then we also got married very, very, very young.   So, all those statistics were against us on top of that. I'm just going to start off by saying that. Casey Caston: (12:46 - 13:18)  Yeah, my mom's been married six times. So, when by the time I hit junior high, I had probably like nine different iterations of home life and different dads and step siblings and half brothers. And all of that between both of our parents.   There's just there's some mental illness. There's affairs. There's all this trauma that was really unprocessed.   But then when Meygan and I saw each other, it was like we knew the wounds that we shared. It was like almost like a trauma bond.   Meygan Caston: (13:19 - 13:19)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (13:19 - 14:08)  Like, oh, I've got abandonment. So, do you. And, you know, let's do it's like, wow.   So, let's make each other happy. And dating was just all the fun stuff, right? It was long walks along the beach.   It was going to street fairs or, you know, going out and having fun. And then we're like, if this is what life could be like, then we should do this forever and ever and ever. And just, you know, we were so doe eyed of like and optimistic about how marriage life would look like.   So, then once we did get married, done, done, done, we had to like work through stuff. Now, I was so conflict avoidant because I was afraid if there was conflict, then that means that there's going to be distance between Meygan and I and she might leave me.   Meygan Caston: (14:08 - 14:24)  Oh, there's another there's another difference. I'm a fighter. He's a fighter.   So, anytime we would have conflict triggers, you know, emotional regulation, I was like, we're going to go for it. Now, of course, my fighting tactics were not healthy. I yelled. I blamed. I was very aggressive, assertive.   Casey Caston: (14:24 - 14:37)  Conflict was very scary for me. Now. Now, Meygan, she's like wanting to deal with issues. And here I am, like trying to run for the hills. And she's like, he doesn't care about me. And I'm like, I'm trying to protect the marriage by not dealing with it.   Meygan Caston: (14:37 - 14:49)  So, you never really resolved anything. We would fight really bad. We broke all the fighting rules.   And then there was no true resolve, no apologies, no remorse. And you just kind of move forward.   Casey Caston: (14:49 - 15:06)  And so, then we piled ourselves like we had over two hundred fifty thousand dollars of debt when we started to try to work on getting pregnant. We we dealt with infertility. We I have ADHD, so that creates a lot of that's fun.   A lot of fun for the marriage.   Meygan Caston: (15:06 - 15:08)  The divorce rate is very high with ADHD.   Casey Caston: (15:08 - 15:10)  My life gets to teach you patience.   Meygan Caston: (15:11 - 15:11)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (15:12 - 16:44)  But and then we have a child with special needs as well. So, we we had like if there's something that could go wrong, it it went wrong. We had you know, once we got married, there was toxic in-laws that boundaries that were crossed.   So, it just nothing for us came easy. And so, that's why we were the least likely to succeed in marriage. I mean, if we there was a couple doomed from the get go, it was Meygan and I believe a hundred percent that God used those trials, those hardships to create marriage.   Three sixty five. He gave us the strength to, you know, have the courage to say we're not going to follow in our parents footsteps. We're going to change that.    You know, it ends with us literally like we are going to change and break this generational sin because it goes back many, many generations for both of us. Our whole family is littered with divorce. And now like when we approach marriage, it because of where we've come from, it wasn't all flowery.   It was really tough. We have to be practical and very tactical with our advice, because when you're sitting across from a couple that's angry and resentful. We have to sit there and go, we know what that's like.   And here's exactly what you need to do next. I'm not going to give you a platitude. I'm not going to give you some flowery statement or we're not going to just talk through it.    No, we're going to give you a tool and an action step that's going to help you. Laura Dugger: (16:46 - 18:56)  Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time?    WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life from premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase. There is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even when it seems things are going smoothly so that they're stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication and more.   I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food and content. You will be so grateful you went to find an experience that's right for you and your spouse. Head to their website, winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage dot org slash S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   I'd love to hear even more into the redemption part of it, because Marriage 365, you had shared before we had recorded that you launched that in 2013. So, just to get the timeline straight, had you already done some work and some counseling before you launched that?   Meygan Caston: (18:56 - 19:26)  Or what was that journey? Yeah, so, we always say we it took us two years to fall in love and get married. It took us three years to destroy our marriage, and it took about four or five years to repair our marriage.   It was, as you know, Laura, it is not a quick fix when your marriage is as bad as ours. And so, our story is unique in the sense where we were both not wanting to get help for our marriage. I love you, babe, but he was resistant.   He didn't want to go to therapy. His family didn't go to therapy. That wasn't normalized.   Casey Caston: (19:26 - 19:31)  Well, my faith background said that therapy is bad from the from the devil.   Meygan Caston: (19:31 - 19:38)  It was specifically your parents. But from the devil. Yeah, because I have a faith background, too. And my parents went to therapy. But that's what I was saying.   Casey Caston: (19:38 - 19:40)  My background was that you don't do that.   Meygan Caston: (19:40 - 21:16)  Yeah. So, I was wanting to get divorced and he wouldn't divorce me. He was like, no.   So, if you're going to do it, you got to do it. And so, I got help for myself. And I had the most amazing woman who a therapist who just walked me through basically how to save my marriage by myself.   And she goes, listen, you know, at the end of the day, if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. You have zero control over Casey. You have 100 percent control over you.   He's not here. You are. I can show you how to communicate, how to forgive him even without getting an apology.   I can show you how to bring to his defenses down. I can show you how to create boundaries so he doesn't yell at you anymore. I mean, and that's literally for 13 months I worked on myself. And I believe that that is what genuinely changed everything. And that's really the message behind Marriage 365 is if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. Stop waiting around for your husband or your wife to get on board.   They may never. Then you're only going to build resentment while you sit there and wait. At the end of the day, you're responsible for how you show up.   And so, in that 13 months, the hope was, of course, that I would positively influence Casey, which I did. And he saw the change in me. Everything changed.   I mean, like we both used to be yellers, right? We would both yell and scream. And I was like, I'm not going to yell anymore.   Like, I just I don't want to be a yeller of a mom. I don't want to be a yeller of a wife. Like, I don't like this part of me. My mom was a yeller. I mean, oh, yeah, I hate this. And I just remember like one day he came walking in and he was all heated and frustrated and he started yelling at me. And do you remember what I did, babe?   Casey Caston: (21:17 - 21:33)  Yeah. She looked at me and calmly said, you know, I can tell that you're very upset. I really want to have to listen to what you want to share with me.   Why don't you go outside, take a break, come back in? We're going to sit back on the couch. We can talk about it. I'm here for you. And I was like, what a change.   Meygan Caston: (21:33 - 22:07)  Who is this person? I changed the way that we did marriage. I did that.   And I tell people that I didn't do that once. I didn't do it twice. I did that for months because we had habits we had created.   But I was like, that was like a new boundary. I'm like, I'm not going to engage with him when he's angry. It's been triggered.   Nothing good is coming from this. So, it was all of that we started to really adopt and learn together because he's like, you're a different person. Like, it was obvious we were doing the tango.   And now I was doing the rumba and he was over there doing the tango. And I'm like, come join me in the healthy rumba over here because it's way better.   Casey Caston: (22:07 - 22:09)  And so, for toxic tango.   Meygan Caston: (22:09 - 23:20)  Yeah, we went to a marriage. Yeah, we went to a marriage intensive. And we did some therapy.   We did a lot of self-help. But through that journey, this is kind of where we started Marriage 365 is. First off, we couldn't afford therapy.   We needed to pay off all that debt that we had with a lot of student loan debt, a lot of stupid debt. What do you do if you can't afford therapy? What do you do if you don't have a good therapist?   What do you do if you have a bad experience with therapy? What do you do if the books aren't enough? And that was there was a really big hole and missing part in the marriage.   I don't say industry, but in the marriage space, where were all the online resources? Because this was back again in like 2010 when like podcasts weren't even around, social media was just becoming a thing. And it was really hard.   We were really disappointed with the lack of resources there were for marriage. And it felt like every church you go to, there was, you know, the missions ministry and the children's ministry and the youth groups. And all those are great.   Where in the world are all the marriage ministries? Then we found out only 3% of churches have actual paid marriage ministries. And I thought, that's messed up.   That's reverse. It's supposed to be the opposite, because then everything else will work itself out, as we know, with what research shows.   Casey Caston: (23:20 - 23:21)  Same with men's ministry, by the way.   Meygan Caston: (23:21 - 23:22)  Yes, same with men's ministry.   Casey Caston: (23:22 - 23:23)  Men's and marriage.   Meygan Caston: (23:23 - 23:26)  That's like the stepchild.   Casey Caston: (23:26 - 23:33)  Tech guy slash men's guy slash, you know. Children's persons can also do marriage.   Meygan Caston: (23:33 - 23:40)  So, we really just started helping our friends out. Obviously, people could see the change. Then people would come to us. We started helping couples at our church.   Casey Caston: (23:40 - 23:48)  And we had a ghoul pool. Like people were like, we give you guys another like ten months and then we're expecting you.   Meygan Caston: (23:48 - 23:51)  Yeah, everyone that knew us thought we'd get divorced.   Casey Caston: (23:51 - 23:52)  We were messy.   Meygan Caston: (23:52 - 23:58)  We were bad. Yeah. So, to see the complete transformation. And again, I go back to that work we did was on ourselves.   Casey Caston: (23:58 - 25:31)  And I just have to say that if you want to make a better marriage, it starts by making a better you. If you're hearing that. And you're kind of in a one sided marriage right now, I got to just say, I know that message sucks because it's a message that says you have to go first.   And that's not fair. In a marriage, you're supposed to be a team. But I do want to say there's so many couples that are stuck. Waiting for their spouse to join them on the let's get healthy train. So, their spouse doesn't join them. And then what they do is they kind of lean back, fold their arms and go, well, I guess we're stuck.   But I want to say that that's there is a message of empowerment to say you do have influence and the ability to steer your marriage in a healthy way. I have lots of regret that I did not join that train much sooner. But the story is that Meygan, you know, became the hero of our journey.   And that is something that I work actively so that I'm never in that place again, that I am the one that's always actively trying to improve myself, that I'm a better communicator, that I'm not a yeller, which we've ditched that a long time ago, that that I'm considered of Meygan's needs. And I'm even like attuned to like, what is she feeling? And how do I meet her where she's at?   Laura Dugger: (25:32 - 25:54)  Which is amazing that watching Meygan, it was compelling enough for you to join in. And it's admirable on both sides, the work that you've done. And are there any specific areas that you grew in that now you teach couples? I'm thinking specifically under conflict and repair or communication.   Casey Caston: (25:55 - 27:42)  Yeah. So, I remember those early years and every single week was chaos to chaos. Like coming home, it'd be like, what's for dinner?   I'm hungry and we need to make a decision now. Or, you know, it's Friday night or Saturday morning. What's going on this weekend?   Or where's all our money going? It was very, it was very reactionary. And I remember reading through Stephen Covey's, you know, Seven Habits of Highly Effective People.   And the first habit is be proactive. You cannot be intentional with your life. You cannot create purpose and meaning unless you are proactive with your life.   So, Meygan and I, you know, I'm working in a company and every single week we get together and we go through what are everyone's goals? What do we need to accomplish this week? We find alignment and the week goes really well.   We've got KPIs. We've got all these like, hey, as a team, you know, work team, here's what we're trying to accomplish this week. And it just kind of dawned on us like, well, why don't we do that in marriage?   Why don't we do that for a family? You got a family of six. You got six people running around the house. All have agendas. And you are trying to find alignment so that, hey, this is what the family is all about this week, right? We've got tournaments.   We've got parties. We've got projects. We've got meals.   And I think for so many couples we talk to, they live. Life with purpose on like building their career or their business or purpose with other areas of their life. And then when it comes to family, they wing it.   Meygan Caston: (27:42 - 27:43)  They just wing it.   Casey Caston: (27:43 - 28:31)  Yeah. And it's like, well, if it's meant to be, it's meant to be. It's the winging attitude creates chaos.   And so, Meygan and I love to teach this tool called the Weekly Marriage Business Meeting. And it is all of the logistics of our relationship schedules, meal plans, budgets, connection time, sexy time, alone time, self-care time. Yeah.   And and we kind of set with intention the week ahead for us. And we go through all the decisions of who's going, what, where, when. And all of that's done.   So, when you walk into the day, you're not like stressed about what's supposed to be happening. There is alignment and there's no missed expectations.   Meygan Caston: (28:31 - 29:27)  Yeah, there's no fights anymore about, well, you said you'd be home at six. No, I didn't. I said I'd be home at seven.   We sync our calendars. And I think, too, a big thing with this is we've noticed we fight when we don't do this now. It's one of those tools that it's prevented most of conflict.   I mean, we say it will on average for the most couples that use it. We have at least over 10,000 couples we know right now currently using it that are our members that they say it cuts conflict in half in half, because what you're doing is you're even scheduling that connection time or date night time where you're like, no matter how busy we are, when are Casey and Meygan going to get to be Casey and Meygan?   And that's so important, because again, if you're winging it and you're just trying to find time to connect, well, you've got four kids, we've got two teenagers. It's never going to happen. Right. And so, the weekly marriage business meeting is definitely one of the amazing and favorite worksheets and tools that we've taught and that we use ourselves because it works.   Casey Caston: (29:28 - 29:28)  Yeah.   Laura Dugger: (29:28 - 29:59)  What a game changer. That is awesome and so practical, so intentional, which we're all about. But then also we had talked about emotional intimacy earlier and emotional intimacy is interconnected with sexual intimacy and communication is the root issue.   And that's what you teach couples. So, what are some conversations that couples can begin so that they can grow in both of those types of intimacy and enjoyment?   Casey Caston: (30:01 - 31:34)  Yeah, so, I feel like I have to start off by saying I got this so wrong when we were first married. It's OK. I forgive you now.   Yeah, because, you know. Let's just let's be we'll be we'll be completely transparent. So, Meygan and I waited to have sex until we were married.   So, now I actually waited till I was married to have sex. And I thought that under that purity guideline, I was promised maybe by a youth group, maybe by a convention, that if you withhold sex and remain pure, God is going to bless you with the best sex life when you're married. And that just simply did not happen.   Like when we first got married, I really got went into the bedroom thinking. I don't know what foreplay is, but let's have intercourse until I come and then we're done. And that's sex. That's our sexual intimacy. And we missed out on so many intimate ways of knowing each other and sex being an obligation and something like I just was demanding of it from Meygan. And. What I've come to discover and what I love to teach other men is that sex is so much more broader than just having intercourse. I mean, there was this total understanding like, well, I feel good during intercourse. This feels very stimulating, which means that Meygan must feel the exact same way while we're having intercourse.   Meygan Caston: (31:35 - 31:35)  Nope.   Casey Caston: (31:36 - 32:35)  Because that's because listen, I never had sex before. But anytime I watched a rom com, you know, the guy threw up, you know, against the wall or they're having intercourse and she's going and he's going and they're having a great time. Like this must be what sex is all about.   And what I've discovered now and I get to teach other men is that emotional intimacy is kind of the birthplace of sexual expression of love, right? That we we create safe places for our wives to to open up. And because of that, they become more willing and wanting that that sexual expression rather than us just coming in and saying, OK, it's time for sex.   Let's go. And so, when we talk about just this book, this 365 Connecting Questions for Couples, I tell my guys, I'm like, hey, if you want to have great sex, start here because that is foreplay.   Meygan Caston: (32:35 - 33:48)  That's start here. It's good to know my heart, not just use me for my body, which can feel like that for a lot of people. And I think going back to the emotional intimacy, I think that, again, you had that when you were dating or you wouldn't have gotten married.   There was no way you were. If the person was boring, closed off, if, you know, your spouse was just completely on their phone every time, you wouldn't have had that second, third, fourth date. So, there was emotional intimacy at some point, which means you can't ever say we never had it.    You can always get it back, but you can have to be intentional. And I think a great way is we call it connection time. I think date night scares a lot of people.    I think it's the idea of. We have to go to a restaurant, we have to spend money, we have to find a babysitter, all these hurdles that you have to go through to make it happen, so then couples just don't even do it. So, we're like, listen, if you if that's overwhelming to you, then try connection time.    And really what that is, it's still undivided, you know, attention and time with you and your spouse. Maybe it's smaller, maybe it's 15 minutes, 30 minutes. And I know for when our kids were little, we played board games and card games and they'd go to bed, you know, at 7:30 or 8:00 PM.    And we would bring out Yahtzee.   Casey Caston: (33:48 - 33:51)  There'd be a lot of trash talking over chutes and ladders.   Meygan Caston: (33:52 - 34:29)  But we would play. We would play games. And it was our time to connect.    And when we didn't talk about the kids, you know, we just chatted about our day and again, going through some of these connecting questions that didn't even really exist yet, but they were in our heads. Taking a walk with the dog and, you know, going to a little local coffee shop, even if it's just 30 minutes and sharing and talking and exploring that emotional intimacy should never stop again. And that's going to give people opportunities to then go into the bedroom, like Casey mentioned, more willing and more excited to be intimate to each other because it's like, oh, that's right.    We like each other. We're still married. We're still friends.   Casey Caston: (34:29 - 35:15)  You bring up a great point. Like I said, I think sitting down over the table, staring at each other can be intimidating for a lot of guys, because especially if this is not a regular habit in your relationship and taking a walk for guys when we're doing something and maybe it's less intimidating because we're not even staring at each other. But that kind of like getting the, you know, oxytocin going, like getting moving, like that kind of adrenaline can actually stimulate guys for good conversations and processing things.    And so, what we hear from a lot of couples that take our book, maybe they'll take a picture of the question and they'll go, Hey, let's take a walk. And then they'll use the question on their walk.   Meygan Caston: (35:15 - 35:15)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (35:15 - 35:24)  And that gets conversations going. So, if that's like a on ramp onto this, that's a that's a great starting point for a lot of people.   Laura Dugger: (35:24 - 36:48)  Oh, that's so good. And I love how you say just an on ramp, because the goal is more intimacy overall together to know one another, be known. And I love that you're showing this is not a manipulation factor.    This isn't ask these questions so we can be more active in the bedroom, regardless of whichever spouse is the higher desire one. But this is to really enhance all levels of your relationship. And as you talk about oxytocin, it just makes me think such an interesting cycle that the Lord created where I will speak more stereotypically that where women require the emotional connection and then they open up and enjoy sex more.    But then men, once they've had sex and they just have this like 500 percent increase of oxytocin in this neurochemical bath that opens them up emotionally. And we could see it even as we view our differences. You could be upset because they're opposite or we can see it as a gift that they can fuel one another.    And then we get more of a holistic picture of overall intimacy. So, I'll also link to quite a few episodes because we do about one per month where we dive deeper into sexual intimacy. S   o, I can link all of those in the show notes.    But Casey, were you going to say something?   Meygan Caston: (36:49 - 36:50)  I want to say something to it.   Casey Caston: (36:51 - 37:16)  He loves. Well, so, we're talking chicken and egg, right? Like who gets the emotional intimacy, who gets the physical intimacy first?    And I just think that there's if we approach our relationship with selfishness, well, then neither people get satisfied. But if we are in an approach to serve one another and be selfless lovers. So, men would be like, you know what?    I want to meet my wife's emotional needs.   Meygan Caston: (37:16 - 37:16)  Yeah.   Casey Caston: (37:17 - 37:38)  Like and I do believe that men are the spark of initiation. If you're a husband out there listening to this, like that one of your greatest gifts to marriage is initiation. You were the one who asked for the first date.    You were the one who got down one the knee. You are the spark of initiation. And I believe that God's created women as nurturers of that initiation.   Meygan Caston: (37:39 - 37:41)  And to clarify, you're not talking just about initiating sex.   Casey Caston: (37:41 - 37:43)  Well, yes. Just everything.   Meygan Caston: (37:43 - 37:55)  Initiating, just initiating, initiating a weekly marriage business meeting. Women are so turned on by when a husband's like, hey, I don't necessarily know what we want to do for a date night, but I want to take you on a date. Can I get an amen, Laura?   Laura Dugger: (37:55 - 37:56)  Right, sister?   Meygan Caston: (37:57 - 38:14)  Hey, women are turned on. Listen, men, women are turned on. If you say, you know what?    I know that like this has been an issue with my parents and I don't even know how to handle it, but I really want to have that conversation. Oh, my gosh. Just initiating the conversation is all we're looking for.    It's OK that you don't have all the answers.   Casey Caston: (38:14 - 38:14)  Yeah.   Meygan Caston: (38:14 - 38:23)  But for men that avoid stonewall, escape, numb out, busy themselves, it is such a turnoff. It is so not what we want.   Laura Dugger: (38:23 - 39:55)  I want to make sure that you're up to date with our latest news. We have a new website. You can visit theSavvySauce.com and see all of the latest updates. You may remember Francie Heinrichsen from episode 132, where we talked about pursuing our God given dreams. She is the amazing businesswoman who has carefully designed a brand-new website for Savvy Sauce Charities. And we are thrilled with the final product.    So, I hope you check it out there. You're going to find all of our podcasts now with show notes and transcriptions listed a scrapbook of various previous guests and an easy place to join our email list to receive monthly encouragement and questions to ask your loved ones so that you can have your own practical chats for intentional living. You will also be able to access our donation button or our mailing address for sending checks that are tax deductible so that you can support the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and help us continue to reach the nation with the good news of Jesus Christ.    So, make sure you visit theSavvySauce.com.    Okay, so, then continue the conversation with just overall intimacy. What are some examples of de-escalation techniques that you recommend to couples who are in conflict, ones that can maybe help the strained relationships so that they can be repaired?  Yeah.   Meygan Caston: (39:55 - 42:19)  Yeah. So, a big thing that I've learned as someone who's very direct, I can tend to be on that, like I mentioned, fighter side. And I know a lot of women, studies have shown 75 percent of us ladies are the ones that typically bring up the issues.    So, just be aware that there is a gender difference there. And if you're a dude, there's nothing wrong with you if you're in, you know, that 75 percent or 25 percent. But I think the biggest thing I've recognized is to remind your spouse in the very beginning of the conversation, why you're having the conversation.    You know, I love you. I love us. I want to see us be the best people that we can be.    I want to see us enjoy marriage and enjoy life. I love you. Like bring the positivity and the reminder that you're better together than apart.    And really, that's part of what we call a soft startup, right? There's a lot of different soft startups you've heard of. You know, I feel when you I need those work to but I like to take it a little bit deeper to say, remind your spouse how much that you love being married to them.    Or again, whatever the issue is like we have the most. Let's say it's parenting. Casey and I are very different in our parenting styles.    Last night would have been a great difference of how that happened. But like reminder that like we both love our children. We both want the best for our kids.    No one doubts that. We both have made we made two beautiful, wonderful, quirky children. Right.    And so, even you can start the conversation with that. But I wish that more people did that because I think people are are, you know, I'm really upset about something. OK, well, the second you say that defenses, sorry, but defenses are going to go up.    We want to keep the conversations defenses low, guards low, right, de-escalation. And so, use soft startups, use kind, positive language. But I think another thing behind that would be come to the conversation processed.    Do not have these conversations 11 o'clock at night when you're tired or when you're hungry. Do not have these conversations when it just happened and you haven't had the time to just like stop. Think about what do I really need?    Why did that trigger me? What am I hoping to achieve? Why is my husband acting this way?    Oh, is he under a lot of stress? Yeah, we got to give ourselves time to sit and process before we even use those soft startups. So, that would be my advice for de-escalation.   Casey Caston: (42:20 - 43:04)  And mine actually would be an apology. I think that we all make mistakes. And when you think about a couple that's maybe living reactively, just winging it, I doubt that there's ever an apology that's given on either side because it takes a little it takes awareness to recognize, gosh, you know what?    My that little comment I just made that probably had a little zing to it. Or, you know, I really let my spouse down by not parenting the children the way she would want me to. Or, you know, I said I was going to do something and I didn't.    And I let my partner down. You want to de-escalate a tense situation. Apologize.   Meygan Caston: (43:04 - 43:04)  Yeah. Own it.   Casey Caston: (43:05 - 43:12)  When you apologize, you know, you're taking all of the heat out of the fire. They really are.   Meygan Caston: (43:12 - 43:16)  And you're validating your spouse's feelings. Who doesn't want to be validated and seen? Everybody does.   Casey Caston: (43:16 - 43:38)  And then you're taking responsibility and accountability for your actions, which is the trust builder for relationships. So, that's why when you talk about high conflict relationships, there aren't a lot of there's not a lot of trust there. It's not a safe place anymore.    So, to create that safety, we want to we want to build trust back into the relationship.   Laura Dugger: (43:39 - 43:50)  Those are fantastic. And do you guys just have maybe a handful of ideas for ways that couples can strengthen their marriage with one another?   Meygan Caston: (43:51 - 44:09)  Absolutely. I would say, obviously, the weekly marriage business meeting. I mean, I know we talked about it, but the important thing is to schedule it, put it in the calendar because you don't want to wing it.    And that way it's showing, oh, you're prioritizing us. Taking walks has been a big one for us. Playing games is a big one.   Casey Caston: (44:09 - 45:18)  The 60 second blessing is where we intentionally spend time. 60 seconds reminding our partner of how much we love them, using our words to say, like, I saw how hard you work for the family. I love how you take care of the kids and kind of reminding your partner, like I see the goodness in each other.    I think it's really important because. Day to day life, we can just be very transactional, and if we again, we have any sort of criticism or, you know, our words just are not flavored with life, well, proverb says, you know, our words have the power to give life or to give death. Right.    So, the words that we speak, if we evaluate. Are we producing what I call weed seeds? Or are we planting fruit trees?    Because weed seeds choke out the garden. Those sharp, critical words can leave your garden looking pretty shabby, whereas being intentional by speaking positive over each other. It's like planting fruit trees.    And who doesn't like a good, juicy orange? Right.   Meygan Caston: (45:18 - 47:15)  Well, and the 60 second blessing, you know, you start off by writing five to seven positive things you love about your spouse. And so, one spouse shares their list for 60 seconds and then the second spouse shares their list. And it's this habit that we actually started doing after our marriage intensive that we did as we were repairing our marriage because we had yeah, we had we had spoken such mean and harsh words or just a lot of roommate stuff.    And we needed that positivity. And it's a great foreplay tip, by the way, just to sit, sometimes sit down and go, I just need to tell you how wonderful you are. Like, who doesn't want to hear that about themselves?    I think another thing that Casey and I have recognized it is the only thing, by the way, Laura, in our marriage, the only thing that has ever stayed consistent. That's we have fun together. We laugh a lot, even in hard times.    Yeah, it wasn't as enjoyable, but we still had fun. And, you know, again, fun is different for everybody. We don't ever want to judge someone else's fun.    But we are constantly like we we are sarcastic. But that's for us because we have high trust levels. I usually tell couples if you're, you know, in a fair recovery or you have low trust levels, sarcasm is probably not great.    But we're very playful. We have again, we play a lot of fun games and we play ping pong and cornhole and we take our dogs on our dog on a walk. And we, you know, we're going to try to go ax throwing in April.    We've never done that before. Like there are fun that we've taken dance lessons. So, we like to think out of the box and do new things or things that we know that like how many games of Yahtzee have we played?    I don't even know. I mean, we've lost count. Or gin rummy, you know, I mean, we just play Sequence or Rummikub like we play them all.    And for that for us, that's really fun. We dance a lot. We love the 90's music.    Like get out your favorite playlist and just dance and sing and be goofy. Like I think if couples were to laugh and enjoy each other more and be able to laugh with themselves, I think that there would be more marriages that would stay together. Laura Dugger: (47:16 - 47:39)  That is something that I've even experienced in this time together. You guys are so fun to be around. And that's very life giving to others.    But I can see where it starts in that secret place between just the two of you, your best friend. And you share a lot of this goodness with Marriage 365. So, can you let us know all the different things that you have to offer?   Casey Caston: (47:40 - 48:48)  Yeah, I would probably say the number one way that people experience all of the resources that we've created over the years is through our mobile app. So, we have an app that has over a thousand pieces of videos, workshop, worksheet, excuse me, courses, challenges. We even have a checkup so you can actually rate kind of your marriage.    And that is a great way for people to be able to have access, you know, on the spot if they're dealing with an issue, they don't know how to get through and they're looking for a tool or a conversation to help them work through that. That our app provides such a valuable resource. I mean, beyond that, you know, some couples need a little bit more hands on approach.    So, we do coaching. We have a coaching staff actually to handle all the incoming couples that are saying, hey, can you can you help us out? And again, I just want to say coaching is really, really focused on giving action plans and homework and accountability to our clients.    And coaching is really, really helpful if you're like, I just need to know what to do next.   Meygan Caston: (48:48 - 49:17)  Yeah. We do intensives for couples that are in crisis, you know, there that are seriously considering separation or divorce or an affair recovery and that we have an over 90 percent success rate because we went through an intensive when we were struggling and it was something we knew we wanted to get trained on and do. And it's a full two days with Casey and I.    I mean, two days back-to-back. We know you. We get Christmas cards from all of our couples, you know, every year.    We love it. And it's they become almost I mean, yes, they're our clients, but they almost become like our friends.   Casey Caston: (49:17 - 49:45)  Yeah. And then probably personally, one of my favorite things that we do is we host our own couple's getaway. And this is a four-day experience.    It's not your it's not like a typical retreat where you're sitting in a conference room, you're just getting lectured all day. We're actually facilitating tools and then giving couples opportunities to work on them. Then some free time to really spend some time making great memories.    We have a dance party. It is a ton of fun.   Meygan Caston: (49:45 - 49:55)  We make sure. Yeah, we make sure it's fun. It's more it's definitely more for couples who are doing OK or want to do better, not they're not ideal for couples in crisis because it's going to be very uncomfortable.   Casey Caston: (49:55 - 49:56)  I love our retreats.   Meygan Caston: (49:56 - 49:57)  I know.   Casey Caston: (49:57 - 49:58)  I love interacting with her.   Meygan Caston: (49:58 - 50:05)  And of course, we have our social media. You can just search Marriage 365 and then we have our website, too. And we have our books, of course.   Casey Caston: (50:05 - 50:09)  Oh, and I have a men's group. I know I launched a five-week men's reset. . Meygan Caston: (50:09 - 50:34)  Needless to say, Laura, we're really busy. I do a lot. I think that's what's funny, right?    I think that people see us online and they think that we just have an Instagram, or we just have Facebook. And I'm like, we've been doing this for 12 years and we have a staff of 12 people. So, we reach a lot of people.    And we because marriage is never a one stop, you know, one size fits all. It's it's true. There are so many different dynamics, and we want to be able to help as many people as we can.   Laura Dugger: (50:35 - 50:59)  Wow. Thank you for sharing that. We will add all of those links.    I love all these different offerings that you have and that will meet people in whatever phase they're in. But you two already know we are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so, as my final question for both of you, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Meygan Caston: (51:00 - 51:47)  Mine would be I would want every single person to think about becoming more confident. And that starts with becoming more self-aware. I think that that is completely changed who I am.   And I'm we're raising two kids, and I see the confidence that they have. And we're modeling that but also walking them through how to be self-aware. And really, that starts with having to be one with your thoughts, turning off the phone, sorry, turning off the podcast, sometimes turning off the music and just actually sitting and really going.    Do I really know my thoughts, my feelings, my values, my personality, my good, my bad, my ugly? And we don't do this enough. We are busy ourselves.    We're distracted constantly. And I think that it's really harming our mental health. And so, that would be my savvy sauce.   Casey Caston: (51:47 - 52:30)  Hmm. I love that, babe. It's kind of hard because we find so much alignment.    I mean, I would that's exactly what I would say, too. Um, I, you know, my focus in twenty, twenty-five has really been turned towards helping husbands. And there's a quote that Henry David Thoreau says that many men live lives of quiet desperation and they die with their songs still inside them.    And most guys are terrified of stopping and evaluating. And so, for me, creating space too. Listen, I do a 10, 10, 10 practice in the morning.   Meygan Caston: (52:30 - 52:32)  That's what I thought you were going to say.   Casey Caston: (52:32 - 52:32)  Yeah, yeah.   Meygan Caston: (52:32 - 52:36)  Well, I was like, I bet you he's going to talk about it because it's been life changing for you.   Casey Caston: (52:36 - 53:01)  Yeah. So, I spend 10 minutes of scripture reading. So, that's input.    Then I spend 10 minutes of quiet meditation where I'm sitting and I'm in a listening posture. And I mean, I think about everything from lasagna to the last wave I serve to. But there's intentionality about just opening myself like here I am.    I'm ready to be downloaded on like what you have for me today.   Meygan Caston: (53:01 - 53:02)  God be one with your thoughts.   Casey Caston: (53:03 - 53:18)  Yeah. And all sorts of things come up. And then I spent 10 minutes journaling.    And that process is just and that's like the output. Right. So, now I've got input.    I've been listening and now I get to write stuff out. And that's been a huge game changer for me.   Laura Dugger: (53:19 - 53:43)  Wow, I love both of those. You two are just refreshingly vulnerable and such an incredible mixture of intentional and lighthearted. And it has been so great just to sit under your teaching today.    So, thank you for sharing your story and for helping all of us. And thank you just for being my guests.   Meygan Caston: (53:43 - 53:45)  Oh, you're welcome. It was a pleasure to be here.   Casey Caston: (53:45 - 53:49)  Yes, you asked great questions that plumb the deep wells of Casey Meygan.   Laura Dugger: (53:52 - 57:35)  One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

In today's episode, Amy and Sara sit down with Kendy Bowman as she shares her journey of parenting through grief after the passing of her husband, Cameron. She talks about the unexpected ways God prepared her family, the peace that surpasses understanding, and how she has learned to embrace both the hard and the hopeful moments along the way.Kendy also opens up about what it looks like to help kids process something you've never experienced yourself, creating a new life as a family, and finding joy again even as grief remains. Whether you're walking through grief yourself or want to support someone who is, this conversation offers encouragement, practical steps, and the reminder that you are not alone.Book: The Grieving BrainBook: The Grieving BodyBook: My Wynter Season--Question of the Week: What are ways we can care for someone who has lost someone?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Kendy BowmanProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps 

Every kid receives love differently. Understanding how your kids best experience love can transform your relationship with them. In this episode, Amy and Sara sit down with Dr. Gary Chapman—world-renowned author of The 5 Love Languages—as he shares how understanding your kids' unique love language can strengthen your connection and help them feel truly loved. Learn practical ways to speak love in a way your kids can hear, understand, and feel.The Five Love LanguagesThe Five Love Languages of ChildrenThe Five Love Languages QuizzesTeen's Guide to the Five Love LanguagesChoose Greatness: 11 Wise Decisions that Brave Young Men MakeThings I Wish I'd Known Before We Became Parents--Question of the Week: How do you love someone who is super different than you?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Dr. Gary ChapmanProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

265. Servant Leadership, Mentoring, and Actionable Steps with Kathryn Spitznagle   2 Timothy 2:2 (NIV) "And the things you have heard me say in the presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people who will also be qualified to teach others."   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Cover: What are some servant leadership principles you've learned over the years? How did you learn forgiveness is part of leadership? Will you elaborate on a leadership tool mentioned in your book, which is called the "Hero Page?"   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Kathryn Spitznagle is the author of "Rock Star Millennials--Developing the Next Generation of Leaders," and the companion workbook, "Rock Star Millennials Toolkit." She is a professional coach and the founder of Mentoring Women Millennials, LLC. She has 30+ years of mentoring, coaching and leadership development in corporate, small business and not-for-profit environments as well as 10+ years of mentoring cancer survivors and their families throughout their journey. Her mission is to foster the personal and professional development of leaders... for the life they lead today...and the one they want tomorrow.   Savvy Sauce Episodes Mentioned in Episode: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson Biblical Principles as Wise Business Practices with Steve Robinson   Additional Previous Episodes on Business and Leadership on The Savvy Sauce: The Inside Scoop on Chick-fil-A with Mark Dugger How to Apply Successful Business Principles to Your Life with Dee Ann Turner Leadership Principles and Practices with Former NFL Player, J Leman How to Lead When You're Not in Charge with Author and Pastor of North Point Community Church, Clay Scroggins Understanding the Myers-Briggs Personality Type Indicator to Improve Your Marriage, Family, and Work Relationships  Thriving at Work, Home, and Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Business Owner, Crystal Paine Energy to Spark Success in Your Business with Best-Selling Author, Speaker, and Podcaster, Christy Wright How 2 questions can grow your business and change your life with author, pastor, and podcaster, Jeff Henderson Radical Business and Radical Parenting with Gary & Marla Ringger, Founders of Lifesong for Orphans Stewardship as the Daughter of Chick-fil-A Founders with Trudy Cathy White Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant Generational Differences in the Workplace with Haydn Shaw Pursuing Your God-Given Dream with Francie Hinrichsen Leadership Training: Five Key Elements for Creating Customer Loyalty in Your Business with Elizabeth Dixon  Uncover Your Purpose with Clarity with Isimemen Aladejobi Unlocking Meaning and Purpose in Your Life and Overcoming Burnout with Dale Wilsher Leading Your Family, Marriage, and Self with Justin Maust Divine Productivity with Matt Perman 223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence Patreon 27 Re-Release: Purposeful and Practical with Emily Thomas Special Patreon Re-Release: Creativity and Career While Raising a Family with Jean Stoffer   Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website   Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger:  (0:12 - 1:20) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    I'm thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage.    Their weekend marriage retreats will strengthen your marriage while you enjoy the gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy.    Kathryn Spitznagle is my enchanting guest for today, and her resume is quite impressive, but what actually is even more of a standout is her humble heart.   So, if you are one who learns from stories and encouragement, and you also appreciate actionable, practical tools, this conversation is definitely for you. Here's our chat. Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kathryn.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:21 - 1:24) Oh, thank you, Laura. Appreciate you having me.   Laura Dugger:  (1:24 - 1:32) Well, I'd love for you just to start us off by giving us a snapshot of your background and also your current phase of life.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:33 - 6:47) Okay, lots of seasons. Yeah, learned, you know, you learn something from all of them. So, I started out in journalism.   I've kind of come back to my roots interviewing folks. I was a sports writer, so I grew up in a family with four brothers, so when I went to college, I knew sports, and at the time, that was unusual to have a female sports So I did that, and then went into publishing after I got my journalism degree, and since I'd been a sports writer, they put me in the men's division of this magazine publishing company. So, I started out learning, I started out working for a helicopter magazine, and I was an editor, and the only one that did know how to fly, and so they sent me to flight school in order to be a better editor and, you know, learn how to communicate with our readers.   And again, then because I'd done that and was in the men's division, they moved me then to shooting times, which was hunting and sports shooting. So, then I learned how to shoot guns and reload in that whole industry. From there, I went to fashion.   So, I went to the women's division, and at first they said, you know, are you sure you want to do this? And I said, well, this will be the first job you've put me on that won't kill me. You know, I've learned how to fly planes and shoot guns.   You know, let me have a shot at that Singer sewing machine. And I was a terrible seamstress. And they said, really, what we want you to do in fashion is to create a presence in New York, in Manhattan.   And so, the publisher was in Peoria, Illinois, but they wanted a presence in Manhattan. And so that's what I did for three years, worked remotely back and forth, and created that presence, joined the Fashion Group International. They hired three consultants to fix me up.   And so, I laugh if you've ever seen the movie Miss Congeniality, that was me. So, you know, learned all about the fashion industry and built those relationships with our advertisers. And also, then we went into television and did a lifetime, the TV show, weekly TV show on Lifetime called Make It Fashion.   And we're trying to blend that the home sewing industry with the fashion industry. So, if you saw this on the runway, in Milan, or in New York, or in Paris, this is how you can make it yourself, be your own designer kind of thing. So that was my journalism start, then moved to St. Louis, got married, had babies, and went into corporate communications, worked for Purina in St. Louis, where I learned so much about leadership, moved back to Peoria, and I went to work for Caterpillar. And when I retired from Caterpillar, then I started this business, Mentoring Women Millennials. And I have such a heart for this generation. I think they're so bright and smart and creative and entrepreneurial, and they get a bad rap.   And so, I wanted to have a platform to lift them up, and also to give them tools. So, the first year I wrote a book, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. And what I found, there were so many really sharp, bright millennials that had never had good leaders.   They never had a mentor. They didn't have the tools. Many of them were entrepreneurs.   They didn't intend to lead people. They had a craft. They started a business, and it grew.   And they're like, now I got people. What do I do with people? And as I was out speaking about my business, I found the audience very consistently had two types of attendees.   One was what I would call a seasoned leader, who said, for helping the millennials, thank you. Something along that line. And then I would have a young person stand up and say, “Do you have a book”?   And after that happened several times, okay, Lord, I got this. Yeah, write a book. And I remember saying, “That's a good idea, God, but I don't have time.”   And so if you want to know why COVID happened, it was me. Because the good Lord said, hey, it's February of 2020. It looks like you have time right now.   And so I hired an editor. We wrote a book in four months and published it at the end of the year. And in 2021, then started the podcast.   Laura Dugger:  (6:48 - 7:04) Well, that's an incredible resume and such a whirlwind to getting here today. But you mentioned some leadership principles, especially at Purina. So, Kathryn, what are some of those servant leadership principles that you've learned and acquired over the years?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (7:04 - 9:34) Over the years, yeah. Just some amazing leaders at Purina. Their culture was very much a servant leadership culture.   Purina as a company was created in the 1950s by an independently wealthy gentleman, William H. Danforth. And he created the Youth Foundation in St. Louis. And he found once he got kids out of gangs and out of jail and off drugs, nobody would hire them. So, he created a company to hire those kids, Purina. And so, they, yes, told us that, you know, the first day he said, you know, this is never confused what we make with why we're here.   We were here, we were created to develop people for life. What we make will change. But the reason we're here will not.   And Danforth also wrote a book called I Dare You. I Dare You to be the best you can be and help someone else do the same. And so that very first day we were told the story of the genesis of Purina, we were given that book, I Dare You.   And when we left orientation, we met, they had 360-degree mentoring. And they said, “This is how we create this culture. And we continue this for generations through mentoring.”   So, when you leave orientation, you're going to meet your leader mentor, your peer mentor, and in 90 days, you'll be mentoring. Everyone at Purina mentors, and we all learn from each other constantly. So that was the platform.   And that was the culture. And when you think about feeling cherished, and valued, that's how they did it. Because if you're going to mentor someone, and someone's going to mentor you, you have value.   And the people you're working with have value. And so that creating a cherished culture was their legacy. And then it's something that I took on to Caterpillar.   And I continue now, in my keynote speaking, that's one of the most popular is how to create a cherished culture in the boardroom, in the living room, and in the classroom. Hmm.   Laura Dugger:  (9:35 - 9:47) And so, I won't ask for the entire keynote speech then, but is there an overview that you can give us of those things that we could implement that you've learned to implement over time as well?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (9:47 - 11:29) Yes, some of the tools. And, and that was another wonderful thing about Purina that I saw then, and haven't seen it since. You know, it seemed unique to me at the time.   Fast forward a few years, and it was like, yeah, that was very unusual leadership. And one of the things that they valued was, know your people, understand them, know their needs, know their wants. Even at this point, so, you know, I'm talking 30 years ago, I went to work there in 1990.   They were talking about purpose. What's your purpose? Purina had a very specific purpose.   We are a purposeful company. We're here to develop people for life. And, and they even said, I thought this was unique to it at orientation.   They said, and we hire bright, smart people, and we don't expect you to stay here very long. Our job is to send you off better than we found you. And with a positive impression of Purina.   And here's why. When you leave here, you may go to another Fortune 50 company, which I did. You may be in a position to impact a merger or acquisition.   You can buy and sell our stock. And at the very least, when you go to the grocery store, you can buy dog food. And we want it to be Purina.   Laura Dugger:  (11:31 - 11:36) That's incredible. That actually happened then with you taking that forward.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (11:37 - 16:07) And all of those lessons learned. So, when I talk about creating a cherished culture, Purina, one of the things they did very well was to introduce a concept, illustrate it with a story, and then activate it with a tool. So mentoring, they talked about here is the platform on which our company is built, developing people for life.   And they told us that story then about Purina. Then they gave us the book. And then they gave us a mentor that we were meeting with each week.   And they gave us a, what do I want to say, an outline. So, when you meet with your mentor or mentee, here are questions to ask. Here's a way to go about this.   And the number one reason people do mentor is because they don't know how. What's a process? And so how smart?   Purina's like, here. Here's an outline. Here are things to ask.   Here are discussion topics. And here are different tools we're going to give you as you progress in leadership. And they're designed for you then to pass on.   And so those are some of the tools when I talk about creating a cherished culture. One of the tools is here are questions to ask. Here's how to have that dialogue.   Here are discussion topics. When you're developing a relationship with this person, ask about their life outside of work. Ask about their family and friends and whatever, as much as they'd like to share.   Not everyone does. That's okay too. Ask about their best day at work.   What's a bad day at work? What's their best boss like? How do they like to be recognized?   What's their purpose? One of the most insightful questions they asked at Purina was, why do you want to succeed? And why do you want this company to succeed?   And those two questions give insight to someone's purpose. And so, then if you frame discussions around their purpose and their values, it is exponentially more meaningful to them. So, when I talk about how do you lead millennials and how is it different?   Those are a couple of the things. Understand their purpose. Understand their life. Their values outside of work, and frame things within their purpose.   Here's an example and or their values. If someone says, my values are hard work and transparency. I want people to be honest. Those are a couple of my values.    Okay. So, if I were leading that person and I saw them being transparent with someone else, being open and honest, I would recognize them for that.   Not just recognize them for the work, but recognize them for their value, demonstrating their value. I saw you be open and honest with that person. Thank you for that.   If kindness is a value, I saw you. I saw what you did there today to help someone out without being asked. Thank you for that kindness.   That resonates on a whole different level. And if you have to have a tough discussion with that person to say, frame it in those words. I know you value honesty, and I do too.   And so, we need to have an honest conversation. And here's some things that I'm seeing in your behavior, in your leadership, or in your work style that can hold you back. So, let's fix this whole different way to lead.   Laura Dugger:  (16:09 - 16:39) Absolutely. And I love how some of these even one-page practical tools you've included in the back of your book. So, it's a plug and play, but I'm even thinking back to your mentoring relationships where you had this circle of mentors and you were mentoring.   I think it's also helpful to get to hear one another's mistakes. So, are you comfortable sharing any mistakes that you've made along the way that actually even turned out to be beneficial learning opportunities?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (16:40 - 20:32) Absolutely. Loads of them. I've got loads of them.   And one of the women I mentor has said, I think I've advanced my career 10 years by learning from your mistakes. And I love that. And she's like, now I'm going to make plenty of my own, but I'm not going to make yours.   And I said, “Good. That's the point of all this.” One of the big ones I made at Purina.   I think a lot of places I would have been fired, probably should have been. I was working in the marketing group, and we were like an internal marketing. So, we did the new product introduction, point of purchase, point of sale materials, the legal documents that went out, the whole packet that would go out to a distributor, a grocery store.   And EverReady Battery was one of our product lines. So, we had internal clients. And as they had new product introductions, we'd get the materials together.   We had in-house printing, all of the things, graphic design, and that was all under my purview. The letter, there's a letter that went out to distributors that was a legal document and had a number. And I pulled the wrong letter, the wrong number.   And it wasn't discovered until last minute. And we sat down with the client and they're like, oh my gosh, this is the wrong legal letter. And I, you know, I'm the account rep, that was on me.   So, I had to go back, I had to go to Neil Lewis, my boss and say, “Okay, we've got to pull this back before it all goes out, reprint, which is going to be all our expense. We're going to have to have people working off shifts and all that sort of thing to do it quickly. And then reassemble all these Eveready Battery packets and, you know, do as close as we can to meeting their deadline.”   And so basically it's going to eat up our margin and we're going to have more printing expense. We're going to have more labor and we're going to have some unhappy people. And our client's not real happy either.   And that was all me. And Neil said to me, “You know, I learned something today. And he said, until today, I thought you walked on water.”   And he said, “Now I know you're human, just like the rest of us.” And I thought, oh, my word. And he's like, okay, so what happened?   That was a mistake. How are we going to fix it? And I said, “I've already pulled the right letter, getting it reprinted. Here's the, additional time and money. Here's how it's going to impact our margin.” And he said, “You know, can we do it? And can we satisfy the customer and get, if not meet their deadline very close?”   And I said, “We can meet their deadline if we have people work third shift.” And, you know, and he said, “Okay, let's do it. That's the right thing to do.” And, and he said, Kathryn, “I told you what I learned today. What did you learn?”   And I said, “I learned how to be the kind of leader I want to be when someone makes a mistake.”   Laura Dugger:  (20:36 - 21:05) Wow. The humility in that is incredible. And thank you for sharing.   Stories are so memorable. It makes me instantly reminded of two previous episodes. I'll make sure I link in the show notes, both with Jeff Henderson and Steve Robinson, accomplished businessmen, but who were also willing to share stories and how just like you, it actually made them a better, more relatable leader.   And so that's encouraging.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (21:06 - 21:34) And I knew when I got to Caterpillar and, uh, particularly when I was running the Caterpillar visitor center, because that was so new and never been done in Caterpillar. And so, we're going to make some mistakes and we're going to learn, you know, along the way. And there was more than one occasion where I was reminded of Neil Lewis.   And I said, okay, I learned something today. You are human. Just like the rest of us.   Now, how are we going to fix this?   Laura Dugger:  (21:35 - 23:48) And then what did you learn?    Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.    Friends, I'm excited to share with you today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage. Do you feel like you need a weekend away with your spouse and a chance to grow in your relationship together at the same time? WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that provides weekend marriage retreats to help couples grow closer together in every season and stage of life from premarital to parenting to the emptiness phase.   There is an opportunity for you. WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured. Even when it seems things are going smoothly so that they're stronger.   If they do hit a bump along their marital journey, these weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape retreat perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you're there, you will be well fed, well nurtured, and well cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and more.   I've stayed on site at WinShape before and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, to find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org/savvy. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org slash S-A-V-V-Y. Thanks for your sponsorship.   You've had so much experience in different areas and as a corporate leader. So what is it that drew you specifically to have a heart for millennials, which we can define as those approximately born between the 1980s and early 2000s?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (23:50 - 28:18) I really started working with them. My last role at Caterpillar, I was a director of global sustainability and it was within public affairs. So, we were leading, Caterpillar was leading a natural infrastructure coalition.   I was working with a lot of different entities, public, private, governmental. We're trying to get language passed into law. That was a big portion of my job.   Another portion of my job was to be out speaking about what Caterpillar was doing in the world of sustainability. And I loved that. What I found was the sustainability groups of Caterpillar employees all around the world, we do a global call quarterly, learning what everybody was doing.   They were all this age group. And when we would do the river cleanup on Saturday, these are the people that showed up with their kids. And when we do tree plantings, these are the people that showed up with their kids.   It's like, okay. And I remember saying to my peers, you know what, this group of employees, these young people are not going to retire with a pension like we are with health care like we do. There's so many things that we have garnered through our career appropriately.   They don't have that. What drives loyalty for them and what engages them with Caterpillar are these things. These things we're doing through the foundation where we're giving back and improving the world and the things we're doing in sustainability, giving back, improving the world.   They are so much more engaged in our company through these things. And so, I kind of knew, I thought, okay, I'm not sure exactly where the Lord is leading, but it's going to be with those people. And that was the thing I knew when I retired that, okay, this is what I want to do.   And then the more I worked, you know, I started the business mentoring women millennials. The more I worked with these young women, the more I saw, yes, there's a need. There's a need here.   And I always, you know, again, people would ask, why? Why are you so connected? And I said, first of all, I saw the value in them.   But secondly, I think I was one. My husband and I laughed that we never really fit in with our generation. And here's why.   We both were out of school and working on our careers when we met. And in our generation, you got married right out of high school, or at the very least right out of college. And so, you know, our families had given up.   They're like, they're never going to get married. They're working. They got this whole career thing going.   And so, when we got married, well, then we didn't have children until we were in our 30s. You know, highly irregular for our generation. We were entrepreneurial.   So, we were looking at franchises in our 20s. And our families were like, just get a job. What is this?   You got to buy something and then you buy something else. And my husband owned a business, his first business in his 30s. We both had side hustles.   Again, friends and family were like, just do one job. What is with you guys? Always got all these things, you know, going.   And then when I took the job in fashion, and I was working in Manhattan and living in Peoria, like, what do you even call that kind of work to call it remote? Working remotely? Yeah.   And so, I think part of my heart for them is I was one. And so, when they talk about some of the struggles and the things that are endearing to them, like, I got you. I felt like that, too.   Laura Dugger:  (28:20 - 28:57) That is incredible. And I think it really does make you the perfect person for that mentor mentee relationship. And I kind of want to camp out on that further, because we've alluded to it.   And some of these tips are in your book, where you highlight those discussion topics that give people the tools. But then if we take it a step further or personalize it, how can all of us as listeners begin a mentoring relationship like the one you've described? And I'm even thinking of the beginning point.   Do you think it's up to the mentor or the mentee to initially reach out?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (28:58 - 33:07) Either one. Yeah, either one can work. When I left Purina, having had this wonderful leadership experience and mentoring environment, I thought, well, this must be what all corporations are like.   No. Doesn't make them bad. They're just different.   So, when I got to Caterpillar that was male, very male dominated, I remember calling my mentor at Purina, who is still my mentor today. She mentored me for 22 years at Caterpillar after I left Purina. And then was one of the biggest proponents of me writing my book and starting my business.   And we still get together today. So, when they talk about developing people for life, they're very serious about that. And so, when I got to Caterpillar, I thought, well, they don't seem to have this.   I think I'll start a mentoring program. Well, I was, you know, some little gal in marketing. You're not going to start a mentoring program for a Fortune 50 company out of that spot.   It comes up through HR and Office of Business Practices and Legal and all of that. Anyway, I called my mentor at Purina, very frustrated, and I said, “Lynn, you and Neil make a place for me. I'm coming back.   They don't have a mentoring program here.” I don't, you know, and she said, “Okay, first of all, we didn't train you up to come back. Your job is to take this forward.”   And she said, “Are there young women there?” Yes. And she said, “Mentor them.”   And she said, “Are there leaders that need support?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Okay, support them.”   She said, “Are there teams that need to be built?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Then you have good work to do there.”   Go. And she hung up. I thought, OK.   And so, from that moment on, when I would see an announcement that would come through email where a woman was being hired into Caterpillar, I would reach out to her and just say, do you have a mentor or would you like one? And for 22 years, they all said yes. And so that's what I did.   I worked with those women. And, you know, here's another God wink when my announcement went out, then that I was retiring. These women all started coming back to me wherever they were in the nation and even in the world.   Many of them had gone on to do other things, bigger, better things. And they all started reaching out to me. Someone had forwarded the announcement to them and said, “We want you to start a business, a mentoring business and help others just like you helped us, and we will help you.”   And one said, “You need to write a book, and I'll write the forward.” Another one said, “Yes, and you need to do podcasts and I'll be on one.” Another one said, “I know what's going to stop you at your website, so I'm going to help you with your website.”   Another one said, “You're going to need testimonials.” So, she posted on social media that anyone that's ever been mentored by Kathryn Spitznagel, leave a message here. Very humbling.   And another one said, “I'm now VP of a big company in Chicago and I will hire you.” And so, I retired one day and started a business the next.   Laura Dugger:  (33:09 - 33:30) Incredible how that all came back around. And I gleaned so much from your stories in your book, and then even getting to connect with you before today. But there's another story about servant leadership that you shared from the man who you've named your previous boss, Neil Lewis.   Will you share? Do you know which one I'm thinking of?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (33:31 - 36:35) Yeah. You need to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. Okay.   So, Neil Lewis had leadership meetings. There were 12 of us were his leadership team every Monday morning. He was also a minister outside of work.   So, a lot of times we would laugh that we were getting the rehash of the sermon from yesterday as part of his leadership. But he often gave us assignments. And one Monday morning, he said, okay, here's your assignment.   I want you to know three personal things about everyone who works for you. And they need to be things that aren't in their personnel file. And he said, I'm going to ask you sometime this week about one of those people, but you won't know which one.   So, you need to know all of them. And I, you know, lousy leader, I was just learning. And I said, Neil, I have 10 people, three things, 10 people, that's 30 things I got to know.   And he said, Kathryn, good math. You have some work to do. So, I went back, and I interviewed each one of my 10 people, three things, found him out, followed the assignment.   And I was ready. And I saw him in the hall later in the week. He said, “Kathryn, walk with me. I'm going to the next meeting.” I said, “Okay.” Tell me three personal things about Kathy, who works for you. I said, “Okay.”   Kathy has recently divorced. Uh, she has an 18-month-old baby, and she is moving to a new apartment. And he said, “What have you done to help her?”   And honest to God, I said, “That wasn't part of the assignment.” And he looked at me and I said, “No, wait a minute. I did help her.   I changed her hours. She has a longer commute now into St. Louis. So, she's going to come in at 8:30 am and work till 5:00 pm.”   And I was feeling pretty proud of myself, like bonus question. And he said, “Did she come to you, or did you go to her?” And I said, “Well, she came to me, but I said, it was okay.”   So, Kathryn know your people. If you don't know your people, you don't know what they need. And if you don't know what they need, you can't help them.   And if you can't help them, what in the world are you doing here? It says leaders were here to serve. And if you're not here to serve, you need to step out.   I became a different leader that day. One who chose to lead by serving.   Laura Dugger:  (36:38 - 37:17) I just wanted to let you know there are now multiple ways to give when you visit thesavvysauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled support. Our mailing address is also provided.   If you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce Charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit thesavvysauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (37:18 - 38:19) You know, the other piece, uh, the other thing that he taught me there, uh, Laura, as we continued to walk, uh, because he always wanted to bring things back around to, to a positive. He was going to make his point, but he was not going to leave me there, you know? He said, Kathryn, “Do you understand what you missed there?”   It was such a missed opportunity with Kathy, um, to engage her and to help her feel cherished. He said, “That's the difference when you anticipate someone's needs and you go to them before they ask. That's the opportunity.”   That's the gold. That's what engages people and, uh, garners their loyalty. And that's when they feel cherished.   That was the real missed opportunity.   Laura Dugger:  (38:23 - 38:35) And that never left you. And that's probably blessed so many people hearing that. What about lessons of forgiveness in leadership as well?   Do you have any stories to illustrate that?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (38:35 - 42:28) Yes. And that's another lesson from, from Neil Lewis that was a profound lesson for me that I've never heard anywhere else. Forgiveness is part of leadership. So, I learned this, um, again, lousy leader just starting out.   And, um, when he put me into leadership, I was like, how hard could it be? Tell people what to do. They do it.   And then came my first employee opinion survey results and they were bad. The numbers were bad. The comments were bad.   The people were unhappy. Um, and the comments to me were, were hurtful. They were justified, but they were hurtful.   And so, when I got, uh, you know, got all the information, I left, I was upset. The next day when I came into the office, I just went into my office and closed the door. I thought they don't want to talk to me.   I don't want to talk to them. That's fine. I was working here.   So, Neil gave me a little time to cool off. And then he came in and, um, on my desk, uh, one of the things that they, um, Purina does in terms of creating that cherished culture is, um, to have things around you that revitalize you. And so, they ask you one of the first days about what, what are things that revitalize you?   And I said, okay, uh, fresh flowers revitalize me. They remind me of my grandmother, nanny, and being in the garden. Um, notes are cards from handwritten, you know, from friends and family and a walk outside.   Those are three things that revitalize me. Okay. So again, I registered with Neil Lewis.   He knew that was a way to frame things for me. So, when he came in that morning, he picked up one of the cards from my desk and he handed it to me and he said, to read that card. And I said, you can read it.   He said, “No. No, I'm asking you to read it out loud to me.” So, it was a card from someone on my team, very complimentary about my leadership style and what it, how it impacted them. And he said, “Is that the leader you are today?”   And I said, “No, but in fairness, they were mean to me. They said some very hurtful things and yeah, I'm not happy.” He said, “Okay.”   And he said, “Kathryn, as leaders, our job is to give first and give again”. And he said, “Do you know what the bridge is between giving first and giving again?” And I said, “No.”   I said, “Neil, I'm not tracking with you.” And he said, “Forgive.” And I said, “Oh, forgiveness.”   And he said, “Nope. Forgiveness is something someone else does. That's a noun. Forgive is a verb. And that's what I need to see you do. Forgive.”   He said, “Kathryn, forgiveness is a big part of leadership and it's something that will hold you back for the rest of your life. So, I am asking you today to be the leader I know you to be and forgive them.”   Laura Dugger:  (42:32 - 42:52) Well, in even the way he modeled that in the way you shared that story, it also reminds me of another leadership tool that you mentioned in your book, which I think if somebody is experiencing this, that could be a really practical next step. So, it's called the hero page. Will you elaborate on that for us?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (42:52 - 52:07) Yes. And so, at Purina, when they talked about having these one-on-ones with your team, with your mentees, with your mentors, kind of framing the dialogue in three buckets, called it three bucket exercise. And I still, this is how I still mentor today.   Uh, so the first thing we ask people to come prepared with is bucket one. What are we celebrating? What have you learned? What have you accomplished? What has gone so well?   Um, since the last time we spoke, because we, as people, but particularly as women pass through things very quickly and go, yep, done good onto the next. Yeah. We don't take that time to celebrate.   And Purina was very focused on what they called reveling. Take just a minute to revel. That was good work, did good work, but whatever was accomplished personal and professional, it was, there were things at home, baby slept four hours straight.   Okay. So, bucket one, what are we celebrating?    Um, so bucket one, they called aha.    Bucket two, they called, hmm, what is, uh, what's out there that you need to, um, do, you know, what's on your to-do list. Is there something you need to get a plan for?   Um, is there something that you want to talk through that's kind of on your assignment board, something like that. And we'll talk through some tactics.    Bucket three is what in the world.   So, anything that seems overwhelming, uh, caught you by surprise. You didn't know it was part of the job. You didn't know it was part of life.   Those are the things we want to talk about in bucket three, every time. So, you want me to tell you the things that are overwhelming me and that I don't know where to start. Yes.   Yes. Every week, because here's what we'll do. We will take the power out of that.   Once you, that's it. We're going to fix it and say, okay, this is what's overwhelming me. This is what I'm anxious about.   This is what caught me by surprise. And we're going to figure out how to break it down into something actionable. And then we're going to move it to bucket two.   And next week, we're going to be talking about those action steps and pretty soon it's going to move to bucket one. There you go. We're celebrating that process that I learned at Purina still did at Caterpillar and doing today.   Um, that just warms my heart. Uh, when I see, um, the folks that I've worked with who've now gone on to do other things. And, uh, one of the guys on my team at Caterpillar, um, now works for McDonald's in Chicago.   And he said that Kathryn, that's our onboarding process. And so, anybody that comes through his team in McDonald's, that's what they learn how to do. And he said that it was just gold.   And you can talk about creating a safe space, but again, the difference with Purina was they gave you a tool, not ours, we are a cherished culture. We create a safe space. And you know what, here's how, by asking this question and by setting aside time to answer it and wrestle with it and work through it.   Now, having said all that, where do you put this information as you're learning this about this person? Uh, you're learning what they're celebrating. You're learning, um, what their values are.   You're learning what they like to do outside of work. What's important to them learning about their purpose. That's a hero page.   And so, they gave us a tool and they said, you know, it's very simple, a hero page. You, you just record things that you have learned about this person that you respect and admire about them. And you can do one for yourself.   They ask you to do the first one for you. Um, but then also to do them for, you can do them for a peer or a leader. Um, you can also do them for someone you're struggling with because oftentimes we aren't really looking for the positives in that person.   So, the, uh, the logic behind the hero page is once you've created it, uh, you're going to look for things to put on it. Positives, all positives, negatives we remember. Positives we're looking for and that's the first reason.    The second reason for a hero page is you may have a tough day with that person sometime. And if you do, you go back and look at your hero page and it puts things in perspective.   Yeah, this isn't going well today, but here are the things I respect and admire about this person. And yes, um, perspective.    The third reason is they may have a tough day sometime and what an incredible gift you can be to them.   Here's an example. When I worked at Caterpillar, um, had wonderful leaders, some remarkable women leaders at Caterpillar, I think because there were so few of them, they were rock stars. And one that I worked for, uh, was sent to Beijing, China on a short term, like a, I don't know, six month or one year assignment as it at the same time, I was also mentoring someone in that Beijing office and it was very remote.   They were, in a remote area, creating an office, creating an HR office, you know, where they, where there's a factory and the person I was mentoring said, you know, let me give you an idea of what we're struggling with here. What kind of, what our situation is. And I'm at corporate and I said, well, whatever it is, I think I could send you some of our signage, some of our value signs.   Those are, those are, that's what you need. I'll send you some value signs. You can put them up on your walls.   And she said, Kathryn, we don't have walls. We're working out of a tent. And she said, each morning we send a bus out to the rural areas here in China and it stops to pick up workers.   And if dad can't go, he sends mom. And if mom can't go, she puts a couple of kids on the bus. And we never know from day to day who's coming to work.   What we do know is that the bus will be full. They will get two meals while they're at work, breakfast and lunch. And then when it returns them home, they will have gotten paid.   She said, we are all but paying people and chickens. Do you understand the situation, the gravity of what we're trying to do to come in here and create an office and HR processes? And she said, first, we're trying to determine who our employees are.   I said, “Oh, our leader is struggling”. And she said, “Will you get on a call with her today?” I said, “Give me a minute.”   And she said, “You're going to get her hero page.” So, we got on the call. Lois, “Kathryn, is this the woman that led one of the first NPI projects for Caterpillar as a woman with our flagship tractor?”   And she said, “Yes.” I said, “Is this the woman who was handed a belt buckle and a t-shirt and created global merchandising stores all around the world?” And she said, “Yes.”   I said, “Is this the woman who has been married 30 plus years happily, raised two remarkable children and showed us all it was possible?” Yes. I said, “I don't know what you're struggling with today, but I do know the woman who did these things can tackle this.”   What a gift you would be to another leader on the day that they needed it in that moment, just to remind them of their value.   Laura Dugger:  (52:10 - 52:40) That encouragement is so powerful. And you're such an engaging storyteller. And like you had mentioned previously, you've gone on from corporate America to now beginning your own business, including your podcast that will link to Rockstar Millennials.   So, I'm curious, Kathryn, are there any stories from those podcast episodes that really come to mind as you think of any standout lessons or your favorites?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (52:41 - 55:51) Oh my gosh. There are so many. It just seems like when I think I can't meet someone any more incredible, I do.   And again, good Lord's hand, they come from all different paths. We're international now. A couple of them that really stand out to me, Michael Kuzma,: he invented the self-playing guitar.   He knew people in his life who had either never been able to play the guitar and wanted to, or they had experienced some sort of an injury or illness that then prevented them from doing what they loved. And so, he created this and just said, “I want this to bring joy and be fun for people.” And I guess the part of the platform that I have for the podcast is purpose.   How are you living your purpose? Khushi Shah is 19 years old. So, she's a little bit younger than a millennial even.   Created a company called Drizzl and it is an informed, what I want to say, it's an irrigation company. And she created this as a science project in grade school. She's now in college at MIT and Harvard and Northeastern.   So, she's attending classes at all. She went to a science and math school in Chicago for high school, finished early and took a gap year at 17. And I said, “So you traveled?”   And she said, “Nope, I decided I'd just run that business full-time, Drizzl.” And so, her families of Indian descent. They'd gone to India and seen the need for water, clean water.   And she said, coming back to the States, I saw sprinklers, lawn sprinklers running and it was raining. And I thought, I need to fix that. There are products on the market that will turn a sprinkler off if it's raining.   Her product is predictive. She's 19. Yeah.   So, folks from St. Jude, folks from Midwest Food Bank, just incredible. Obviously, I can't name one.   There are so many. And those who are living their purpose in all walks of life, in all places around the world, I want to talk to.   Laura Dugger:  (55:52 - 56:07) Wow. And Kathryn, you've invested in so many people and highlighted so many people through your podcast. As you look back, what are you happiest that you invested your life in?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (56:09 - 57:07) Well, I'm a mom, boy mom. So that would have to be my first, my boys. Again, one of the women that I mentor said to me early on, Kathryn, one of the things I love the most is you're from the other side.   I said, Kelsey, what does that mean? I'm from the other side. And she said, you've already done all of this.   You've done the corporate life. You understand small business. You have a decades long, happy marriage.   You've raised your boys. They're happy. They're successful.   If you did this, we can do this and you can help us. And so that investment on so many levels, yeah, is coming back.   Laura Dugger:  (57:08 - 57:19) I love that. And would you be willing just to share anything else about your business or what all you have to offer so that we can continue learning from you after this conversation?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (57:20 - 1:00:49) Oh, absolutely. So, the book that you mentioned, Rockstar Millennials, Developing the Next Generation of Leaders. That's the book.   And it recounts so many of these leadership stories. And then in the back, as you said, are the different tools. And I have to credit the Caterpillar engineers because when I went to Caterpillar and I would tell these stories about Purina or I would live something that they had taught me.   Very early on, in the meeting, or after the meeting, some of these gentlemen came up to me and said, “That thing you just did in that meeting, can you write that down? Like what?” And they said, “Like the words and or the process.”   And so, it began. So, I'd start writing down the words and they might put a graphic with it or somehow improve it. And so, through the years, this same group kept coming back to me.   And when they saw the announcement that I was retiring, they showed up again and said, “Okay, we need one more thing, a spreadsheet.” What do you mean a spreadsheet? They said, “You know, all through the years, we have all of these tools now that we've created out of your head on this paper that we can use and we're using.”   If you can give us a spreadsheet that says, “If you're having this leadership issue, use this tool.” So, God bless the engineers.   So, I credit them, and the tools are in the back of the hard book.   What I found when I started doing workshops was people didn't want to write in the book and they also wanted something bigger and they wanted a place to make notes and doodle and that sort of thing. So that's why we have the book and then the toolkit. So, my business is Mentoring Women Millennials and I do one on one mentoring with individuals, small business primarily.   They'll bring me in to work with their women leaders, but also just individuals who are in some sort of a transition in life or that have never had a mentor and would like one. And so, I do the one-on-one mentoring also with nonprofits. And I'm now an 18-year breast cancer survivor, still in treatment.   And I also mentor breast cancer survivors. And keynote speaking. I work with the Capital City Speakers Bureau.   And so, I do speaking there and I'm prepping for a TED Talk. So those are the next things.   Laura Dugger:  (1:00:50 - 1:01:16) I love it. Always something up your sleeve. We will link to your website so that people can follow up and get in touch if that would be a good partnership.   And you may already be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so as my final question for you today, Kathryn, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:01:18 - 1:01:49) Um, when I left Purina, um, I asked Neil, “You know, how do I ever repay this company that has given so much to me?” And he said, “Take what you've learned and help someone else.” And so, if you learn from me, that would be my ask, help someone else.   Laura Dugger:  (1:01:50 - 1:02:05) I love that. Amen. Great Savvy Sauce.   And Kathryn, you're just so poised and classy and full of insight. And it was an absolute pleasure to get to host you as my guest today. So, thank you for being my guest.   Kathryn Spitznagle: (1:02:05 - 1:02:07) Thank you. Thank you for having me.   Laura Dugger:  (1:02:09 - 1:05:52) One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Did you know that over 35% of Americans today have a step-relationship? Blended families are more common than ever—and with them come unique dynamics that can be both beautiful and complex.In this episode, Amy and Sara sit down with Ron Deal, one of the nation's leading experts on stepfamilies, to talk about how parents can lead with grace, patience, and understanding in blended family dynamics. Ron shares powerful metaphors, like his famous "crock-pot" analogy, to explain why these families need time—not pressure—to thrive. He also unpacks common challenges, offers practical tools for step-parents, and gives hopeful encouragement to those in the thick of it.Whether you're parenting in a blended family, supporting one, or simply want to better understand how to love the people in your community, this conversation is full of wisdom, empathy, and next steps.Website: Family Life BlendedBlended Family Resources: The Smart StepfamilyThe Smart Stepfamily: 7 Steps to a Healthy FamilyPDF: A Guide to Building Love with the 5 P's of Step-Parenting--Question of the Week: For those in Step-families: What are some benefits of us having a blended family? For those not in Step-families: Who do you know that might be in a blended family and what kind of questions do you have about blended families?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Ron DealProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

Marriage takes intentionality—and in the middle of raising kids, balancing work, and keeping up with the daily grind, it's easy for couples to put their relationship on the back burner. In this episode, Amy and Marissa sit down with Genee Francis, Assistant Director of Content and Programming at WinShape Marriage, to talk about what it really looks like to invest in your marriage. From practical rhythms to heart-level encouragement, Genee shares wisdom for strengthening connection, building trust, and keeping Christ at the center—no matter your season. Whether you're newly married or years into the journey, this conversation is filled with hope, humor, and practical ways to grow stronger together.Explore WinShape Marriage Retreat OptionsExplore WinShape Marriage Free Resources-Question of the Week: What qualities are you going to look for in someone to marry one day? Why are those important to you? --Hosts: Amy Lowe & Marissa RayGuests: Genee FrancisProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps 

What makes summer camp such a meaningful and formative experience for kids—and why do so many keep coming back year after year? In this episode, Amy sits down with two leaders from the WinShape Camps team for a behind-the-scenes look at how camp is intentionally designed to help kids grow in faith, confidence, and resilience. From counselor influences to outdoor play and faith-filled moments that stick, you'll walk away with a deeper understanding of how camp can shape your kids in powerful ways. You'll also hear about what sets WinShape Camps apart, why camp remains valuable as kids get older, and how it creates a safe space for them to try new things, build relationships, and thrive.WinShape Camps WebsitePodcast: Are My Kids Ready for Overnight Camp?-- Question of the Week: What is a recent challenge that you have overcome?--Hosts: Amy LoweGuests: Keenan Riley & Emma Del SestoProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps 

264. Simple Ideas for Incorporating Art with Children and Teens with Courtney Sanford   Colossians 3:23 NLT "Work willingly at whatever you do, as though you were working for the Lord rather than for people."   **Transcription Below**   Questions and Topics We Discuss: Can you give us an overview of the seven major forms of art and give an example of ways our children can engage with each? What are the best art supplies to have on hand? As our children grow, why is this helpful in the teen years to have a healthy way to express ourselves and our ideas?   Courtney Sanford is a dedicated wife, and mother who triumphantly homeschooled her three children. With one pursuing a career in orthodontics, another just finishing a master's degree while working in higher education, and the youngest studying computer science at Regent University, Courtney's commitment to their education has yielded remarkable success.   Passionate about nurturing creativity and self-expression, she guides students through captivating art classes, exploring the intersection of imagination and skill. With her background as a graphic designer and experience in studio art, Courtney embarked on a new adventure as an art teacher.    As a multitasking mom, author, artist, teacher, and adventurer, Courtney embodies the spirit of embracing life's opportunities and fostering a love for learning and artistic expression.   Beyond her love for education, Courtney has an insatiable wanderlust. She finds joy in traversing the globe, hosting art retreats, and volunteering at Spiritual Twist Productions: both painting sets, and serving on the board of directors. When time permits, Courtney indulges in spring snow skiing, hiking in exotic locations, and leisurely walks with her dog, Zoey.   Delightful Art Co. was born out of a time when life gave Courtney a handful of lemons, and she creatively transformed those lemons into refreshing lemonade. The Covid shutdown rather forcefully prompted a major shift from in-person art classes to online classes.    Courtney's Website   Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage   Other Episodes Mentioned: 202 Simple Ways to Connect with Our Kids And Enjoy Breaks with Beth Rosenbleeth (Days with Grey) 223 Journey and Learnings as Former Second Lady of the United States with Karen Pence   Continue the conversation with us on Facebook, Instagram or our website.   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“   Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   *Transcription*    Music: (0:00 – 0:09)   Laura Dugger: (0:10 - 1:36) Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.   I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, WinShape Marriage.   Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at winshapemarriage.org. That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E marriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.   Courtney Sanford is my guest today, and she's an amazing artist and teacher and author, and I'm just so excited to share this conversation. If you're like me and you're ready for summer and your rhythm changes with your kids, she's going to share some super practical tips for incorporating art and beauty into our homes.   And I think that you're going to conclude this conversation by knowing where to begin and understanding why it matters. Here's our chat.    Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Courtney.   Courtney Sanford: Thanks for having me.    Laura Dugger: I'm so excited to hear more about your story, so will you share what has led you into the work that you get to do today?   Courtney Sanford: (1:37 - 4:20) I sure do like to share that story. I didn't start off as a homeschooler. I didn't imagine that that would be where my life went, but I was always a creative person.   I was a graphic designer, and I worked in the Performing Arts Center, and I got to do lots of fun design for shows. Then along came kids. I actually enjoyed dropping them off at school and going to Target, and I was okay with that.   We didn't do public school because the school near me didn't look safe, and we had lived near Columbine High School and thought it was just a beautiful, beautiful school. And when we left Colorado, we thought, oh, isn't it sad that our kids won't go to school there? And then just about a month later, the whole Columbine shooting happened, and so we were kind of traumatized by all of that.   And then when I saw the school that my precious five-year-old would go to, it didn't look safe, and so we sent them to a private school. So here we are spending a lot of money, having high expectations, and the kids were doing all worksheets all the time, and they started to dread going to school, and they didn't love learning, and the excitement of learning just kind of drained out of them. And so we looked into other options and decided that homeschooling would be the way to go, and I found the classical model and just loved the way that sounded, and we tried it, and it worked, and the little lights just came back on in their eyes, and they started to love learning again.   And I just found my people, and I just learned everything I could about homeschooling, and I just poured myself into it wholeheartedly as unto the Lord. And had a great time, and I just loved my time with my kids, and I felt like it was successful, and I encouraged other people to do it, but I wasn't really sure that it worked until they got into college and they turned out to be successful, thriving humans, and we're really proud of them. One will be a doctor in about a month.   He's about to graduate. He has a wife and a little girl, and then my second one has her MBA, and she works for a Christian college where she leads trips, and she's getting ready to take a group to Paris and London, and so she kind of ministers to students through that, and then my youngest is still in school staying to be a software developer. So now I can confidently say it was worth all the energy that I put into it.   It was hard work, probably the hardest thing I've ever done, but so worth it.   Laura Dugger: (4:21 - 4:40) That's incredible, and I love hearing the success story where your children are now, but you really also inspired them with beauty and art in their learning and growing up time, and I'm curious, are there any personal lessons that the Lord has taught you through art?   Courtney Sanford: (4:41 - 6:32) Oh, goodness. Yeah, I think my desire was to make learning interactive because I saw what they were doing in the private school, which was sit in a chair all day and do your worksheets, and it was just worksheet after worksheet after worksheet and then a quiz, and then you get graded, and so I was thinking if I'm going to pull them out, I've got to do better than that, and so that was my standard, and I was going to beat that standard every day, and so I pulled in art because that's what I knew, so if we were learning about an animal, we would draw the animal. If we were learning about a continent, we would draw the continent until we could draw it from memory, and I really learned with them. I did not have a great elementary education or even high school education, so I would learn this stuff, and then I would think of creative ways to get them involved with it, so a lot of times it was drawing.   It could be painting. It could be making things out of clay. We used to make things out of Rice Krispie Treats, and then they could take it to their co-op group.   Well, it was a classical conversations group, but they do presentations, and so we made a Mayan temple out of Rice Krispie Treats, and we would make volcanoes, and then they could take it to their friends and share it with them and tell them about it, so anything I could do that would get us out of the chair using our hands and using our senses and think, you know, how can I incorporate all five senses, and that just made learning so much more fun for them and for me, and so a lot of it was art. Some of it was science.   Anytime I could incorporate a sense of play into what they were learning, I could see that they would learn so much more.   Laura Dugger: (6:32 - 6:55) I love that, trying to incorporate all five senses, especially. That gets some ideas coming, but can you even back it up, and because you're an artist, will you give us an overview of the seven major forms of art, and can you give us examples as parents for ways that we can engage our children with each of those?   Courtney Sanford: (6:56 - 10:58) Oh, sure. Let me think. All right, so drawing, of course, you can draw what you see, so when I teach students to draw, I do a progression, so we'll draw from line art, and you can find line art anywhere.   It might be in a children's book, so using the library was key for me, so I'd get a laundry basket, and I would go to the library with an index card of what we'd be studying, and I would grab all kinds of books related to that, so when you come home, you get out a kid's book. If you see a good line drawing, say you're studying a lizard, if you see a good line drawing, draw from that. They could even trace it to start with, so you draw from the line drawing, then once they get really confident with that, you go to drawing from photos, and then you go to drawing from real life, so maybe you have a fish tank.   Maybe there's a fish in the fish tank, and you could draw from that or draw things in your yard, so that is how I break down drawing for them, and it could be years. You could draw from line art for years before you go to drawing from photos, and then to drawing from real life, and drawing's great for learning to memorize things. For painting, painting's just fun, and so I like to go to the kitchen table every afternoon and paint what you see, so you start off with the younger kids.   You could start with color and markers and fill in the areas, and then you can teach them how to shade using painting. Sculpture is also fun with kids. I like air-dry clay, and I like Sculpey clay.   I like to get a one-pound block of Sculpey clay and teach them the basic forms, like roll out a snake, do your hands together. Those of you who are listening, you can't see my hands, but I am making a sphere with imaginary clay. These are really good for developing their fine motor skills, too.   We also make the letters out of roll-out snakes and form your letters. That will really help if they're reversing letters. It takes a while to build the whole alphabet, so maybe you do three or four letters a day.   You work on it a couple times a week. It might take a month to make the whole alphabet, but that can be one goal, to get them working in three dimensions. We usually do additive sculpture, like adding on, and you can use found objects to make sculptures.   One time, my son took apart a pen. I rearranged the pieces into a human shape, and it was lovely. Getting them thinking in three dimensions is related to sculpture.   Carving, I don't like to do until they're old enough to be safe with a knife, but once they are, especially the boys love to go outside in the yard and get a log. They spend a lot of time carving spoons. Just a simple shape they can hold in their mind and then carve it is a good activity.   It keeps their little hands busy, too, if you want to read aloud to them and you don't mind a little mess in the house, they can carve. You can also carve out of a bar of soap as well. For that, that's a subtractive sculpture technique.   Let's see. That's the three main ones, drawing, painting, sculpture. I know film is one.   Film, I don't really incorporate much into my homeschool, except we will occasionally watch a movie about history. That has gotten me into trouble a few times because some of those movies that I think are going to be historic turn out to have racy scenes in them, and I'll have to jump up and get in front of the TV or cough really loud. But there are some good films that you can watch together as a family.   That's about as far as I went with film.   Laura Dugger: (10:59 - 11:19) I would, if you don't mind me interrupting there, too. I feel like that's one that our girls have actually begun to develop on their own, where our eldest daughter once wanted a video camera, so she got the old-school video camera. They're making their own movies, and I've seen that as a form of creative, artistic play.   Courtney Sanford: (11:20 - 11:49) Oh, that's fabulous. Yes, so when my kids were little, we didn't even have phones or video cameras on the phones, so that wasn't an option. When we first started homeschooling, our TV died, and so we did not even have a TV for years.   We just decided not to replace it, which forced us into audiobooks and reading aloud and then just playing outside instead and reading books. So that was a blessing.   Laura Dugger: (11:49 - 12:03) I love that because that's one of the other forms. That was new to me, that literature is an art form. Sorry, I sidetracked you because we still have literature, architecture, theater, and music.   Courtney Sanford: (12:04 - 14:20) Yeah, I think the best thing that we did for our kids, of course, I love teaching them to write using Andrew Pudewa's method with IEW. It's kind of imitative writing, so you learn to imitate good writers. But also, my husband read aloud to the kids every single night.   That was his time with him. He gave me a break, and he would read for hours. He loved it.   The kids loved it. And he would choose classics or funny things, you know, science fiction. Probably not the books that I would choose.   I would choose classics and things related to what we were studying, but he chose what he wanted to read. So I would read aloud in the afternoons, and we would do audiobooks like Story of the World and all the Jim Weiss readings. And then he would read aloud at night.   And just whatever he wanted to choose, he would read aloud. And I think hearing good language produces good speakers and good writers. So he gets about 50 percent of the credit for the success of the kids, I think, for just reading aloud every night.   It was such a great thing to do for the kids. And then the last one, architecture. I do incorporate architecture when I'm teaching about a culture.   So, if we're doing art history or history, we'll look at the buildings. So, of course, you do that with ancient Egypt. You look at the pyramids.   When you're talking Old Testament times, you look at the tents. And then as I go through art history with the high schoolers, I'll point out more and more like neoclassical, of course, comes from the ancient Greeks, but it's come to symbolize power and authority. And that's why we see it in government buildings.   So, my degree is graphic design, but it was in the School of Architecture. So, I had a lot of history of architecture and I appreciate it. And so I'm always pointing that out to my kids.   And I do that in my class, in my art history class. I always incorporate the architecture just as a part of understanding a culture.   Laura Dugger: (14:21 - 14:29) I love that. And was there anything specific that you did with your kids for encouraging music or also theater?   Courtney Sanford: (14:30 - 15:29) Oh, yeah. One thing I wish I had done more of was kinder music. I don't know why we didn't do that much kinder music, but now I'm learning more about it.   I wish I had done more of that. And I did put them in piano lessons. One wanted to do violin.   So, they had a few years of learning the basics of music, and then they really got into theater. We have a great Christian youth theater nearby. And so that was a really good experience.   In their Christian youth theater, they would sing praise and worship songs before and during and after a play. They would be praying for the audience and singing worship songs in addition to the singing on the stage. And that whole experience was really good for them.   Even my quietest kid got a big role in a play one time, and he had to memorize a lot of lines and sing in front of people. It's just such a great experience for them.   Laura Dugger: (15:30 - 15:57) I would think so. Even if they don't choose something that we would consider a very artistic career, I can see why all of this is still beneficial. That leads me to another question for you.   Regardless of the way that all of us parents listening are choosing to educate our children, why is it still beneficial for all of us to incorporate art into our homes and into our parenting?   Courtney Sanford: (15:58 - 21:59) That's a great question. So, the first line of the Bible says God created. So, the first thing we learn about God is that he was creative.   He created everything. And then just a few lines later, it says then he created man in his own image. So that tells me that we were created to be creative, to create.   Now, he doesn't let us create stuff out of nothing like him, which is probably for our own good. That would be a mess. But we can create things out of what he created.   And there is a study done by George Land. And there's a video on YouTube of George Land giving a talk about this creativity study that he did. And he created a test for NASA to help them find creative engineers when they were trying to get to the moon.   And they used it to study creativity in children. And they tested five-year-olds. So, they found a group of 1,600 five-year-olds who were in school.   And when they tested them at five years old, 98% of them tested as creative geniuses. So, their plan was to go every five years and test them again just to see what was going on. So, they went back after five years.   The kids are now 10. And it dropped down to like 27%. They went back another five years when the kids were 15, and it was down to about 17%.   And then they were so depressed, they stopped testing them because they could see they began as very creative. So, we're created creative. And a lot of moms will say, yes, I can see that in my children.   But something happens. And this was all in school. Something happened during school that taught them to not be creative.   So, the school teaches the kids to be obedient, to sit still, and to get the same outcome from every kid. Right? There's an expected answer on every test.   And you're to try to get the answer that the teacher wants. That's not creative. So, the first thing to do to preserve their creativity is don't send them to school.   That's the safest bet. And then when you do homeschool them, which I think is the best environment for them, don't do what they do in school. To bring them home and to go to all this trouble just to do the same thing that they're doing in school is not worth the trouble.   So, you've got to not do what they're doing in school. And so, for me, that meant don't do worksheets, make the content interactive. So, I did rely on curriculum, but I didn't rely on the curriculum to be the teacher.   So, I get the content from the curriculum, and then I make it interactive using artistic, creative skills so that they can be creative. And I don't teach it out of them. So, if you have young kids, that's good news.   They're already creative. You just have to don't teach it out of them. If your kids are older and maybe they've been in school, then you might have to like undo some of that training and set up some experiences where you ask them or even like in my classes, I'll set up a challenge.   And I expect everyone's to be different because everybody's going to do it a little bit more creatively in their way. And so, at the end of class, instead of like calling out the answers to see if everybody got the same thing, they're holding up what they did and telling me what they were thinking. And everybody's is different.   And then I really praise the ones who did something different. Maybe they changed the colors. Maybe they put glasses on Mona Lisa.   You know, maybe they gave her a cat to hold. So, I reward thinking outside the box. Now to to pour in beauty, and I think I might have heard this from Charlotte Mason, beauty in, beauty out.   So, you've got to load them with beauty. Now, I think that we were naturally drawn to beauty and people will argue with me about this. They'll say, well, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.   But I betcha I could find something that's beautiful and do a survey. And I betcha I could get 100% of people to say, yes, that's beautiful. And I could find something else, maybe a Hindu goddess sculpture.   And I could find something that 100% people would say that is not beautiful. And so, I think that ingrained in some of us because we're created by God, I think we have a sense of appreciating beauty. I do think that it gets taught out of a lot of people.   So, with my kids, I show them a lot of beauty. And this can be as simple as get a coffee table book from the secondhand bookstore on art and put it on your coffee table. Get books from the library and have lots of beautiful things to look at.   And so, when I now when I was teaching my own kids, this is kind of a fly by the seat of my pants. Make it up as I go. Now that they've left home and I can think about it, I'm putting together books that are a little bit more thoughtful.   So, in my books, you will see I've chosen a piece of art that is beautiful and I will pair it with the lesson. And then I'll give you an art activity. So, for example, in Into the Woods, you'll see I've chosen a beautiful piece of art and I paired it with a poem, which is another piece of beauty.   Yes. And then I'll give you an art lesson so that they can get creative with it as well. So, it is this hard to pull it together.   So that's why I'm making books to help parents. So, you have something beautiful and something to do with it. And so, that's how I pour in beauty to give a beauty in beauty out.   Laura Dugger: (21:59 - 22:36) I love that so much. And just even holding this resource, it is so beautiful. There's so much to it.   When it arrived, our daughters were delighted to go through it and to dive in and get to learn. But I'm just thinking many listeners are fellow homeschool parents and also many are not. But I don't want them to be discouraged because I'm even thinking of your courses or if they do intentional art in the evenings or on weekends or summer break and winter break.   There are still ways for all of us to incorporate this.   Courtney Sanford: (22:36 - 24:28) Yes, for sure. Yeah. Even so, my mom, I was public school.   And of course, the word hadn't been invented back then, but my mom appreciates art and poetry and she would always have art books on the coffee table. And I would just stop and, you know, in my free time, flip through the pages. And those images stuck with me my whole life.   She had one that had a Monet on the cover of the Field of Red Poppies. And that was just ingrained in my mind as a piece of beauty. So just something as simple as putting it out on your coffee table.   She also took us to museums whenever we traveled. And she didn't make a big lesson out of it, but I was exposed to beautiful buildings. You know, most museums are in beautiful buildings.   You see the beautiful architecture. And I was exposed to a lot of art that way. So, that was that totally goes with which with summer vacations and your vacations to, you know, make an effort to see a gallery or an art museum when you're traveling.   That makes a big difference. It'll make an impression on them. And of course, the books you could do in the summer.   We have summer classes and we have an art retreat that might not line up with school because it's in May. But the books you could for sure add on. Hopefully someday we'll have evening classes so that you could go to school.   We've got some this coming year that will start at four o'clock. So, hopefully some kids can go to school and come home and join an art class. So, we're working on getting it out as we as I get teachers willing to.   Most of my teachers are homeschool moms, too. And by the end of the day, they're tired. So, I've got a few.   I've got a young lady who's just graduating and she's going to do some late afternoon ones for us next year. So pretty excited about that.   Laura Dugger: (24:28 - 25:04) I love that. And then even thinking of the beauty and beauty out stepping outdoors. There's so much beauty in God's creation and so much change depending on where you live throughout the seasons.   But I love how you also brought up the library, because anytime I'm trying to learn something new, that's my first go to is put books on hold at the library. And so, if we're wanting to know what to add to our library cart just to get us started into this, can you share books that you recommend, both yours and others that you think would be good additions?   Courtney Sanford: (25:05 - 26:19) Oh, that's a good question. Yes, there are. I love to think about the biographies of artists.   And if so, if you're studying ancient history, you could look up a biography on Giotto. And they're still tell the stories in such a nice, kid friendly way. Like there's the story of Giotto.   He was actually watching the sheep. And while he was out in the fields, he would draw on the sides of rocks like big rocks. But you get another rock and you would draw on the sides of rocks.   And another artist was walking through one day and he saw these drawings on the rocks. He was like, wow, you're really talented. Come with me.   I'll make you an apprentice. And those stories are just they're fun to read together and hear those kinds of stories. And of course, the Usborne books of art are beautiful and they often have projects for the kids to do.   I can't think of any specific ones, but I do love a short paperback on the particular artists. And so, I kind of line those up along with the period in history that we're studying.   Laura Dugger: (26:20 - 26:32) That's great. And even you're making me think of picture book biographies on artists. We've always enjoyed those as well.   Obviously, the illustrations are fantastic, too, but the storylines are so interesting.   Courtney Sanford: (26:33 - 27:23) Yes. So, I just grab whatever they have. I had a big laundry basket.   And and I know card and I just grab whatever I could find and sometimes let the kids choose. And sometimes I would choose. If you're going with geography, you can find beautiful photos of the different areas.   See the landscapes or the sunsets. And that can through photography. And you can really get to know a place through beautiful photographs.   I like that part, too. And then that might inspire a pastel drawing of a landscape. Maybe it's a beautiful sunset you could recreate with pastels.   So, photography books are really inspirational, too.   Laura Dugger: (27:23 - 28:10) It's a great idea. And circling back, you had mentioned Andrew Pudewa earlier in our conversation. And I remember learning from him that with writing, the worst way we can teach our children is to say just free write, just write something down or here's a prompt to finish this sentence because better writing comes through imitating.   And so, you've even mentioned tracing is a great way to start. That's not cheating in art if you're not stealing credit from them. But if you're just practicing and tracing, this is a way to imitate.   And so, I'm wondering, do you have any other cautions for ways that may be the wrong way to introduce our kids to art?   Courtney Sanford: (28:11 - 30:50) I agree that. Yeah, you can get writer's block. What I find funny is that some people are so afraid to imitate artists.   But if I were teaching piano, I would teach your kid how to play something by Bach in which he would learn what Bach did. And nobody would say I'm stealing from Bach. You know, and you learn to play Beethoven by playing Beethoven and you you learn to reproduce those pieces of music.   I do the same thing in art. We look at what the masters did and we'll copy it in order to learn what they knew. And that way we build.   We're like standing on the shoulders of giants. So, we don't want every kid to have to start with inventing the wheel themselves. We'd never get very far.   We want to learn what the masters knew and then build on that. So, I do a lot of imitation. And then as the students ready, I let them know you are free to change this or to experiment with it.   So just last week we were drawing and painting red poppies and learning about Georgia O'Keeffe. And so, I said we can do an imitation of her poppy. And I'll show you step by step how to reproduce her poppy.   And in doing that, we're going to cause us to look more closely at it and study her blends. Like she would blend from yellow to orange to red in every petal. And we can study that technique.   And then as we do it and we practice it, we look more closely at hers and it kind of becomes a part of us. And then we'll find another flower and we'll use that same technique on a flower that we choose. Or maybe it's a flower we make up and we take that technique and we can apply it.   And it's a much better way to learn than trying to learn it yourself without looking at what the masters did. So, I think that I think I pulled a lot of that from Andrew Pudewa. The idea of I'm going to assist you until you say I got this.   I can do it from here. So, I do assist until they get it. And then I always say whenever you're ready, as soon as you're ready, change it and make it your own or do your own thing.   And because turning them loose too soon can break their confidence. So, you want to build them up until they can confidently experiment on their own.   Laura Dugger: (30:51 - 32:34) Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor. I'm so excited to share today's sponsor, WinShape Marriage, with you. WinShape Marriage is a fantastic ministry that helps couples prepare, strengthen, and if needed, even save their marriage.   WinShape Marriage is grounded on the belief that the strongest marriages are the ones that are nurtured, even if it seems like things are going smoothly. That way they'll be stronger if they do hit a bump along their marital journey. Through their weekend retreats, WinShape Marriage invites couples to enjoy time away to simply focus on each other.   These weekend retreats are hosted within the beautiful refuge of WinShape Retreat, perched in the mountains of Rome, Georgia, which is just a short drive from Atlanta, Birmingham, and Chattanooga. While you and your spouse are there, you'll be well-fed, well-nurtured, and well-cared for. During your time away in this beautiful place, you and your spouse will learn from expert speakers and explore topics related to intimacy, overcoming challenges, improving communication, and so much more.   I've stayed on site at WinShape before, and I can attest to their generosity, food, and content. You will be so grateful you went. To find an experience that's right for you and your spouse, head to their website, WinShapeMarriage.org.  That's W-I-N-S-H-A-P-E Marriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.    Well, and as parents, once we're past the resistance to maybe invest some of our time or our money or allow the mess into our home, but if we push past through that and we're ready to get started, I'd love to go over some practical tips.   So, Courtney, first, just what are some great art supplies to have on hand?   Courtney Sanford: (32:36 - 37:13) A number two pencil and some Crayola markers you probably already have. Those are great tools. I like to have my kids work in an art journal, and you can get these real inexpensive at Michael's.   It'll say on the cover, mixed media art Journal, and they come in different sizes. I kind of like the big ones, and that will allow you to use paint, pencil, and marker or anything you want. If it says sketchbook, it's not going to hold up to paint very well.   So that's why I get the mixed media paper. So, I start with the art journal, and then I like to make that journal be their book on a subject. So right now, I'm doing ancient history with some kids, and so they are making their own book about ancient history.   So, every week we'll do a drawing or a painting or watercolor on a lesson in ancient history. And so, each piece is not a masterpiece to hang on the wall. Each piece is a part of the story in their book.   That takes all the pressure off. So, they don't see this as, I don't know if this is going to be good enough to hang on the wall. That's not even a question.   It's a part of the story in your book. They can also take some notes. They can show their grandparents and review the topic by presenting it to their grandparents and showing off their book.   And then you can collect their books and put them on a shelf. It's not all over the house making you crazy. And then you can see from year to year how their skills have improved.   So, I kind of like every year I like pick a topic to be the subject of our art journal. So, I call it arts integrated learning. So, I'm pairing an academic subject with art for that year.   So, it could be poetry. It could be history. It could be science.   Whatever you pick. That's what you'll add to your art journal with.   Pencils. I like blending tools too. There are some people call them stompies.   For those of you who are watching. Here's one. It's just rolled up newspaper, but you can buy these at Michael's.   They're really cheap. But it takes a drawing to the next level. You can just blend things out and shade things really lovely.   Mark Kistler does some videos and teaches you how to. He'll go shade, shade, shade. And so that's a good way to start.   And it really elevates a drawing and it gives them a lot of confidence. And then of course the good eraser. The book drawing with children is a really good one for our parents to read and then teach from in that book.   They suggest you have them draw with markers so that they don't spend an hour erasing. If you have someone who's a perfectionist, they will make one mark and spend 20 minutes erasing it. And so, if you go right to drawing with markers, that's gonna teach them to make a good mark first and then keep going and not spend half an hour erasing.   When I get to age nine or 10, I like to use acrylic paints, but I only buy four colors of paint and then I make them mix all the other colors. So, we use yellow, magenta, blue, and white. Those are like the colors in your printer.   Cyan, magenta, and yellow are the ones in your printer. And those colors can make all the other colors. Now your printer has black, but I don't give kids black.   Instead of black, they could make purple or brown or dark color. So, you know, you teach them how to mix the colors that they want. They'll learn to mix it because they want green or they want purple, or they want brown.   And then they develop a sense of color theory, and you don't even have to teach it. They'll figure it out because they want those colors. If they find, if, if you don't feel confident in that, you can buy craft colors of the specific colors, especially brown.   That's a hard one to mix. But I do like the coverage of acrylic paints. I like watercolors too.   That's a little bit easier to get into. You just take it slow and practice a lot. So that's really all you need.   It's pretty simple.   Laura Dugger: (37:14 - 37:27) Well, and I'm wondering too, even with the acrylic paint at that age, once they're older, that one, I'm assuming can stain. So are there any tips that you have for containing the mess?   Courtney Sanford: (37:28 - 38:32) Yes, I get, and they're a little bit hard to find. So go to Amazon and find a, a tablecloth that is plastic on one side and felt on the other side. I forget what you call it, but there'll be like picnic tables, tablecloths.   And the plastic ones are going to drive you crazy because they're too thin. So, if it's flannel backed, it's a little bit thicker. So I get a white one at the beginning of the year.   And that comes out anytime we do clay or paint, and it goes over the kitchen table and I don't worry about cleaning it. You just let it dry, fold it up. And I put mine in the China cabinet right there by the table.   And then anytime we do something messy, that tablecloth comes out and, and then just fold the mess back up in it. And it works, it works really great to, and then you might, if you're, if you're a neat freak, maybe plan on buying one at the beginning of every school year so that you get clean slates. And then the paint that gets onto the tablecloth is actually lovely and it'll be pretty next time you get it out.   Laura Dugger: (38:33 - 39:11) Oh, I love that. That's a genius tip. I appreciate that for coming indoors because in the summer, I guess we could take it outside depending on where we live.   But then what about any hacks for finding the time to do this? And I guess I'm thinking back to a previous episode with Beth Rosenbleeth. She's the one who started Days with Grey and she would talk about different art prompts that she would set out for her children in the morning for a variety of ages.   But were there any things that kind of required minimal time from you, but had maximum return for your kids?   Courtney Sanford: (39:11 - 41:06) Yeah, that's a good point. I had, I wouldn't say I had a strict schedule, but I had a pattern to my days. And the time after lunch was a good time to do messy things in the kitchen because we were in the kitchen anyway.   And as I could clean up lunch and start dinner, I could be in the kitchen with them and they could be creative at the kitchen table with minimum involvement from me. One of my best afternoons was we had the microscopes out to do something specific and I left it out as I was cooking chili. And as I cut up each ingredient, I would cut a thin slice for them to look at under the microscope.   And so they were looking at a bell pepper and a red pepper and celery and tomato. And they were so, they so enjoyed that and I was able to cook dinner at the same time, which was fabulous. And that turned, it was probably like a 15-minute science lesson into like four hours of discovering things under the microscope.   So that element of play and you can do that with your art supplies too. Like I'll demonstrate a technique and then leave it out. I'll turn my attention to cooking dinner while they see what else they can do with it.   And, um, you know, I'll give them a few tips. Like, um, if you mix these three colors together, you're going to make brown and then turn your back and let them discover it for themselves. So, um, I'm a big crock pot person.   And so after lunch would be the time I need to clean up lunch and put something in the crock pot. So that would be a good time for me to get them started on art or science and, um, and then turn my back and let them have that, um, that discovery time without me hovering or telling them what to do or something.   Laura Dugger: (41:06 - 41:22) Oh, that's a great rhythm. I love these ideas. And then I kind of want to go in chunks of age.   So, thinking of little kids, how would you define the difference between a piece of art and a craft?   Courtney Sanford: (41:23 - 43:41) Yeah, a craft is going to be something where the focus is on following directions and that's important. They need to learn how to follow directions. And so we would do, especially around the holidays, I might do a craft and we all follow directions.   Um, a piece of art is going to be where they're, they all come out different. They're allowed to play and express themselves. Um, for me personally, if I'm doing a craft when I'm done, I think, oh, I could make 50 of these and sell them.   If it's an art, when I'm done with a piece of art, like one of these paintings behind me, when I'm done with that, I'm thinking I could never do that again. That took so much out of me. I'm exhausted.   A little piece of my soul is in that that's art. That's the difference. Um, so I don't sell my paintings because there's a little piece of my soul in, um, my husband makes fun of me for that.   He's like, you could just sell your paintings. They're like, what? They're, they're like my babies.   I can't, I can't part with them. It took so much out of me to create them. Um, but a craft, yeah, I'll just give away things that are, that I just followed directions for, um, in terms of kids, younger kids will enjoy crafts, but getting to high school, they recognize it as slave labor and they don't want to do that.   They are in what the classical education people call the, the, um, poetic stage, you know, they want to express themselves and they want to be unique. I think this is why they get tattoos. The tattoo is a way of saying this is who I am.   This is what it means to me. I'm unique. Um, so I think if we don't teach them to express themselves in art, they're going to get tattoos.   So that might encourage moms to, to give them the skills so that they can express themselves. You know, they need to be able to write poetry or write songs or paint a painting or do a drawing. There's that need inside of us to do that that God put in us.   And if they don't have an outlet, then they're going to find something like tattoos or something that we don't want them to be doing. Yeah. I mean, some of my kids are tattooed.   It's not bad.   Laura Dugger: (43:42 - 44:25) Well, and you've kind of answered a follow-up question I had because we talked about little kids, but I'm thinking of teens. So going back, my background is in marriage and family therapy, and we would encourage everyone that journaling is a free form of therapy. But I think of art as the same way.   And there's even studies that show when you're engaged in something artistic, the critical side of your brain goes offline. So you can't think negative thoughts while you're creating something new, but with teens, there's that added benefit of getting to express themselves. So is there anything else with art that you see as basically free therapy for adolescents?   Courtney Sanford: (44:26 - 46:54) Oh, sure. I do see it a lot. I experienced it because I started my business because of the shutdown and because I was teaching in person and then I had to switch to online teaching.   And so, the group that I had moved online and I figured out how to do it and got a little bit better at it. And then that summer I offered a class for adults. These were directors and I was in classical conversations at the time.   And so a whole bunch of teachers are expected to teach Western cultural history without a lot of background. And so some of the moms asked me if I would do my art class for them. And so I had about a group of like 50 adults and we would get on for an hour and a half every day.   And this was at the height of the shutdown when turning on the news, just stresses you out. Going to the grocery store was stressful because people were in masks or they weren't in masks or, you know, we didn't know anything. It was such a stressful time, but that hour and a half that we had together, we, our focus was on discovering a piece of art.   So, we were looking at beautiful things and then we were creating something and that changed our focus from what was going on in the world. And we would just relax, and we'd enjoy it. Having the live class kept our focus on it.   And when I don't have a live class in front of me, I'll be like, oh, I should put the laundry in or I should start dinner and I get distracted. But with that, you know, with other people on zoom, it keeps me focused. And so, we'd have this wonderful hour and a half vacation from the world.   And after it was over, I would just have this sense of peace. And then I'd come down and be like, oh yeah, that's still going on. And it was, it was so good for our mental health.   And, and I get, I hear moms tell me that the hour and a half once a week they spend with me doing art has been such a blessing. Like one student lost her father a year ago and this is helping her. She said she's finally coming out of her depression and she's finding a way to express herself and find beauty again.   And it's, it's been transformative for some students. So, it is a blessing. And I didn't, I didn't read that somewhere.   That's just from my experience. So, I'm a big believer in that.   Laura Dugger: (46:54 - 47:51) I can see why I think you're bringing up two points. I don't want to miss both with art therapy and then also art in community. So art and community first, I think for all of us at any age, what can we do as this is airing probably when everybody's getting out for summertime, how can we gather others alongside of us for whether it's our kids or us as peers to get to engage in these activities together.   And so, I want to follow up with you on that, but also before I lose my thought, I also want to link back to Karen Pence's episode. She had started art therapy for veterans, I believe, and just incredible. The healing that is possible through this.   So, do you have any thoughts Courtney on ways that we can this summer gather together community at different ages and do something artistic?   Courtney Sanford: (47:51 - 52:15) That is a good question. So, we have, I have found the online classes are the easiest for people to get to. And it's I get people ask if we can do it in person, but honestly it's hard to get people out or they're busy.   They're doing things in summer. So, we do offer a class online in the summer that's live. We have recorded classes that you could do alone or get a few people together and, do them together.   I have some sampler packs too. So, some of them are just three lessons. You could get some friends together and find, maybe you could find three, three times during the summer to do.   I have like a Vango sampler pack and a couple of short ones that you could just pay for the video and do with your friends or maybe a mother daughter event. Maybe you do the self-paced class with your daughter. And I've had some seniors, like seniors in high school, do a mother daughter class together and just say, this is such a good time for us to spend a little bit of time together, a little bonus time before they go off to college.   During the school year, we have, I have a watercolor artist friends. She lives near me and she's a professional watercolor artist and she does the class called Bible journaling. And that is a beautiful combination of a devotion and a watercolor time together.   Those are hour and a half classes too. And they meet once a week. And we sometimes we'll have grandmas, we'll have high school students, we'll have mother daughter pairs do it together.   And they actually have a little prayer time, a little study of scripture. And then then Kate teaches them step-by-step how to do a beautiful watercolor and incorporate some hand lettering in it. So that's just a beautiful fun time together.   So I highly recommend her class during the school year. If, if a mom could get away, or if you have a high school daughter to do it together, that is a great experience. And then I have a short version of art history that you could do with friends or your high school daughter.   It's called paint your way through marvelous to behold, which is just 12 lessons that goes through. And that's a variety of drawing and painting. If you wanted to do something like that.   So, lots of things, or you can check out the books. And if you feel confident following step-by-step instructions in a book, you could use the book or a combination of videos and books. If you're feeling kind of like you could lead a art group, you could get the cell page video, watch the video and then do, you know, exactly what I said, do that live with a group.   And if you have any art experience doing that, you could get, probably get, I would like invite all the homeschool moms in your co-op group to get together. And I do some, sometimes I'll go to do a mom's group, do a watercolor or I love to do the milkmaid with moms because the milkmaid is this beautiful painting from the Dutch masters of a woman cooking. She's just pouring milk.   I think she's making bread pudding and it's just so beautiful. It's like, what I think I look like homeschooling. I'm wearing like a long gold gown and those suns coming in and everything's perfect.   I'm like, this is the ideal. This is what I think homeschooling is going to look like. And then I kind of use that painting as a launch pad for painting Delft tiles from the period.   And so sometimes I'll, I'll do that with some homeschool moms because I like to encourage homeschool moms. I know it's hard. And I had some mentors when I was homeschooling that I really appreciated.   So, I'm always happy to, to be the support and be able to say it's worth it. Keep going. I know you're driving a crappy car, but it will be worth it.   And so, the sacrifices you make now totally pay off. And you know, before I know it, my son is going to be homeschooling his daughter. She's seven months now, but it's going to fly by, you know, she'll be four before you know it.   And I'll be teaching her how to paint. I suppose.   Laura Dugger: (52:16 - 53:13) When was the first time you listened to an episode of The Savvy Sauce? How did you hear about our podcast? Did a friend share it with you?   Will you be willing to be that friend now and text five other friends or post on your socials, anything about The Savvy Sauce that you love? If you share your favorite episodes, that is how we continue to expand our reach and get the good news of Jesus Christ in more ears across the world. So, we need your help.   Another way to help us grow is to leave a five-star review on Apple podcasts. Each of these suggestions will cost you less than a minute, but it will be a great benefit to us. Thank you so much for being willing to be generous with your time and share. We appreciate you.    I don't want to miss what website to direct everyone to. If they want to sign up for one of these classes, where's the best place to follow up?   Courtney Sanford: (53:14 - 54:27) Go to delightfulartco.com and on that page, you'll see live classes, self-paced classes, summer retreats. I've done adult retreats before. I'd be open to doing it again if people want to.   So, I have, I would call it private retreats. So, if you want to get a group of women together, maybe somebody has a beach house, I'll come and do the art. It could be a one day, two day, or three-day event.   So that's an option. And we have self-paced classes. So, lots of things to look at.   I have a lot of sample classes on the website too. If you want to drop in and see what they're like. I think there's a how to paint Monet's water lilies is on the site.   You can watch that and see what it's like. Some people are afraid to try an online art class, but we all loved Bob Ross, and we watched him. So, if you can imagine saying, Bob, stop, could you do that again?   That's what my classes are like, and I'll be happy to stop and show you again. And then you can hold up your work at the end and I can give you some feedback. So, I'm like the new Bob Ross.   Laura Dugger: (54:27 - 54:46) There you go. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that.   And Courtney, I just have a couple more questions for you. If let's turn it back to parenting. If we want to get started today and we just want next step to get started.   What is an art prompt that we can still try today?   Courtney Sanford: (54:47 - 57:26) I would look at what you're, what, what are you teaching your kids? So, if you're teaching them, maybe you have a library book on the coffee table that you're studying biology. Pull out one thing from that and draw what you see and reproduce that.   Just one drawing a week. And before you know it, you'll have a whole biology book. So, I like to instead of saying parents, you have to add on another course.   You have to add art to everything else you're doing. Slide it into what you're already doing and it will enhance what they remember about that. And it's not like a whole other subject.   So just use art as a tool to help them remember what you want them to learn anyway. So, anything you want them to teach, if you have a photo or a drawing, have them trace it or draw it. I actually another good way to start is if you have little kids and Bible story time, let them draw what you're reading about.   My son loved to do stick figures. So, I have the whole Bible told in stick figures from when I'm from my youngest kid. And it is fabulous, especially like Sodom and Gomorrah.   And, you know, there's a lot of violent stuff. Boys love that stuff. So, he illustrated a lot of the Old Testament because I read it every morning, and he would just draw what he heard me.   I think I was using the Children's Illustrated Bible. So, he had some things to look at. That's another great way to get started.   Just let them look at the story and draw in their own art journal. So, there's so many fun ways you can use it in every subject. I had a mom tell me she read me an email.   She said, my daughter is just blooming in your classes. I wish every subject could be taught with an art journal and a paint palette. And I replied, we're working on it.   We're we've got we've got Latin and art, science and art, literature and art. There's just so many ways to find inspiration and what you're already studying and find the beauty in that subject. So, in our site, our art and biology course, students do a beautiful watercolor of the DNA strand.   And they draw the cell in watercolor. And it's just beautiful. And it helps them remember it and practices their art skills.   So, it's like a two for one. Think of it as a two for one. Take art and put it in another subject.   Laura Dugger: (57:26 - 57:46) I love win wins. That sounds amazing. And Courtney, I just have one final question for you today.   We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. And so is my final question for you today. What is your savvy sauce?   Courtney Sanford: (57:47 - 58:15) The beauty, in beauty out, has been kind of my savvy sauce and also as unto the Lord. So, whatever I do, I do as unto the Lord. If I'm homeschooling, I'm teaching biology.   I'm going to do as unto the Lord. I'm not going to hand out a worksheet. I'm going to make it.   I'm going to make it a great experience. So, I would have to say whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly as unto the Lord and not for men.   Laura Dugger: (58:16 - 58:36) What a great place to end. Courtney, you are so inspiring. You've given us great ideas and kind of confidence to get to put this into practice.   Even if we're not artists like you, we're all created in God's image and therefore can be creative. So, thank you for your time and wisdom today. Thank you so much for being my guest.   Courtney Sanford: (58:37 - 58:40) You are sure welcome. I had a great time. It's good to talk to you.   Laura Dugger: (58:41 - 1:02:25) You as well. One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term gospel before?   It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news.   Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves. This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death, and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved.   We need a savior. But God loved us so much, he made a way for his only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with him.   That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.   We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says, “That if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” So, would you pray with me now?   Heavenly Father, thank you for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to you. Will you clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare you as Lord of their life?   We trust you to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.   If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring him for me, so me for him. You get the opportunity to live your life for him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason.   We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So, you ready to get started? First, tell someone.   Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible.   I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the book of John. Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ.   I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read scripture that describes this process.   And finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, “In the same way I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.   And if you've already received this good news, I pray you have someone to share it with. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Parenting today can feel more challenging than ever before. Research shows that anxiety is increasing at an alarming rate, and there seems to be a decrease in kindness happening at the same time. That's where some Biblical truth can help us as parents. In this episode, Sara and Amy sit down with Ammie Akin — a wife, mom of three boys, and career educator with a background spanning all levels of administration, from elementary to high school and college. Ammie shares about being authentic as a parent, utilizing the Bible to help guide you, finding joy in whatever stage of parenting you're in, and being intentional in everyday moments.Book: The Anxious Generation--Question of the Week: Who is the kindest person you encounter at school (or you can pick a different location)? What specific things do they do that made you think of them as kind?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Ammie AkinProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

When we walk through something hard, our instinct is often to take control, fix it ourselves, or hold everything together for the people we love. But what if healing comes not from holding on—but from letting go? And what does letting go look like?In this episode, Amy and Marissa sit down with Kylie White—wife, mom of four teens, philanthropist, and a servant-leader in her family's business, Chick-fil-A. Kylie shares how God met her in the midst of a life-changing diagnosis and a pivotal moment of surrender. She opens up about her journey of letting go, discovering the dynamic power of the Holy Spirit, and finding a depth to her faith she never knew before.Kylie's story reveals how her letting go of control led to profound spiritual transformation, and how these lessons are shaping her life as a wife, mom, and leader. We hope this episode will inspire you to loosen your grip, find peace in God's presence, and trust in His faithfulness—even when the path ahead feels uncertain.Kylie White's Blog--Question of the Week: First, tell your kid(s) a story about a time when you stepped out in bold faith. What did that look like—whether big or small? Then ask them: Are there any areas where you need to take steps of bold faith?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Marissa RayGuests: Kylie WhiteProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

In this episode, we're focusing on the theme of influence—being radically generous with our influence, making the most of our everyday opportunities, and using that influence to reach people for the Kingdom of God.Show Notes:To submit your prayer request anytime, visit https://tbclife.wufoo.com/forms/z7mgnwk1a7xuj5/.If you are interested in connecting with a class or group, click here for the full list. https://www.tbclife.net/groups/To sign up for WinShape and volunteer information, visithttps://camps.winshape.org/day-camps/hattiesburg-ms/To sign up for Discover Temple, please visit. https://www.tbclife.net/join/Text UPSIDE DOWN to 94000 to submit your sermon topic idea for Pastor David.

Parenting can feel heavy—especially when we carry around the weight of how our kids will turn out on our shoulders. But what if we weren't meant to carry that pressure? In this episode, Amy and Sara sit down with bestselling author and mom of five boys, Jeannie Cunnion, to talk about parenting in freedom rather than fear.Jeannie shares encouragement for moms and dads who are weary from trying to do it all perfectly. She dives into what it looks like to trade our performance mindset for a grace-filled approach to both parenting and our relationship with God. Whether you're raising toddlers or teenagers, you'll walk away from this episode feeling lighter, more equipped, and reminded that you're not in this alone.--Jeannie Cunnion WebsiteThe 509 FoundationMom Set Free Bible Study by Jeannie Cunnion--Question of the Week: Where are you feeling stress or pressure in your life?  And then – As your mom/dad where do I stress/worry too much in our relationship?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuest: Jeannie CunnionProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

Today, Amy Lowe and Emily Alters sit down with two incredible parents who have launched their kids into adulthood and are now navigating the empty nest season—Jeff Stryker and Lynn Alters. Between them, Jeff and Lynn bring decades of parenting wisdom to the table. Both of their families have deep roots at WinShape Camps, with kids who spent summers growing up at camp and are now faithfully following Jesus in their own unique callings. These two empty nesters reflect on their parenting journeys—sharing both meaningful wins and honest missteps—and offer practical advice and encouragement for moms and dads still in the thick of it. Whether you're raising little ones or teenagers, their insight brings encouragement and perspective for the road ahead.Parenting truth we're holding onto today: You won't do everything perfectly—but being intentional, present, and Christ-centered matters more than you think.Plus: Don't miss what Jeff and Lynn are still learning—even after raising kids into adulthood.--Question of the Week: What is something I'm doing well (as a parent)? What is something I could work on (as a parent)?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Emily AltersGuest: Lynn Alters, Jeff StrykerProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

A summer job is just a job—right? Not when it's working at camp. Today, Amy and Marissa dive into the transformative experience of serving as Summer Camp Staff. Working at camp helps young adults grow in their faith, develop leadership skills, and prepare for life beyond college. Longtime WinShape Camps staffers Alex Scales and Grace Kilgore share the lessons they've learned, why they kept coming back, and how their summers on staff shaped their futures. Whether your kids are still little or heading toward their college years, this conversation offers a powerful glimpse into how camp can impact both campers and the incredible college students who invest in them. Plus, if you know a college student looking for a meaningful summer, we'll share how they can get involved!Want to learn more about working at WinShape Camps? --Question of the Week: What is your dream job? What skills do you need if you had that job? --Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Alex Scales & Grace KilgoreProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

What makes summer camp more than just s'mores and singalongs? In this inspiring episode of the Raising Godly Girls Podcast, host Patti Garibay sits down with Amy Lowe, Director of WinShape Camps for Girls, to explore how the camp experience uniquely shapes young girls into confident, Christ-like women. From building resilience to deepening faith, camp offers so much more than a break from the routine.  Amy shares compelling stories and practical insights about how outdoor adventures and meaningful friendships help girls navigate challenges, overcome fears, and develop a lasting identity rooted in Christ. Patti and Amy also discuss the surprising health benefits of time in God's creation, highlighting how fresh air and outdoor play can reduce stress and restore joy.  For moms wondering how camp might help their daughters thrive, this episode is packed with wisdom. You'll hear about strategies to combat homesickness, the spiritual growth that blossoms at camp, and how intentional relationships with peers and counselors guide girls toward healthier, faith-filled friendships.  Whether you're exploring day camps or overnight options, Amy offers tips on preparing your daughter—and yourself—for an unforgettable summer experience. Learn how camps like WinShape lower financial barriers through scholarships and creative fundraising opportunities, making camp accessible for all families.  Tune in for encouragement, heartfelt stories, and practical advice on raising resilient, Christ-following girls who are prepared to shine in the world beyond the campfire glow. Don't miss this insightful conversation about the power of camp to build strong girls and even stronger faith.  Learn more about Amy and her work with WinShape Camps at camps.winshape.com  Find an American Heritage Girls Troop near you, visit americanheritagegirls.org       Add even more Biblical wisdom to your parenting quiver, visit raisinggodlygirls.com

In today's episode, Amy and Sara sit down with Capri and Jason Brooks to talk all about prayer—how to model it, practice it as a family, and specific prayers to pray over your kids. Capri and Jason share practical ways to make prayer part of everyday life, along with the "S's" they pray over their children: salvation, safety, and spouse. Whether you're looking to grow your own prayer life or help your kids posture their hearts towards prayer, this conversation is full of encouragement and practical real-life tips!--Question of the Week: What is something that you are worried about that we could pray about together?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuests: Capri and Jason BrooksProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

What's the secret to connecting with your boys in meaningful ways? In today's episode, Amy and Sara are joined by Sara's husband, Chase Jones—a Licensed Professional Counselor and Marriage & Family Therapist—to unpack how parents can build strong connections with their sons. Drawing from his years of counseling experience, Chase shares insights on common struggles boys face, the key ingredients for meaningful connection, and practical ways parents can encourage, support, and lead their boys. From pulling them out of the digital world to cultivating leadership and resilience, this episode is packed with expert advice, real-life wisdom, and a reflective question to spark meaningful conversations in your family.The 5 Love Languages QuizBook: The Anxious GenerationArticle: 5 Ways to Shore up Boys' Social SkillsBlog: A Father's Devotion: The Question of Abundant Living--Question of the Week: What makes it hard to be a boy in today's world? What makes it hard to be a girl in today's world?--Hosts: Amy Lowe & Sara JonesGuest: Chase JonesProducers: Emily Alters & Cody Braun--Learn more about WinShape Camps at WinShapeCamps.org!Instagram: @WinShapeCampsTikTok: @WinShapeCampsFacebook: @WinShapeCamps

People tend to assume the worst about Gen Z. Some of those assumptions include that Gen Z are lazy, tech-addicted, or coddled due to weakness. But there is so much more to this generation than those assumptions. Jordan Nations, Program Manager at WinShape Camps, works day in and day out with Gen-Z and knows firsthand the strengths they possess, as well as the fire they have for God's Kingdom. He believes our job as the Church is to encourage and equip Gen Z to fulfill their God-given mission. Learn more about working for Winshape as a camp counselor  Follow Katie on Instagram and TikTok Katie's new online course. Use promo code truth to save $20 Join the Truth for your Twenties Facebook group My favorite rice shampoo/conditioner bars code KatieB