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- Fred Brown That was difficult. And that the kind of person I am or what people expect from me is to not flinch in the face of adversity. I could never grieve. In a meaningful way. And I've never grieved in a meaningful way because. The role I typically play in this society that I live in is the caretaker provider and supporter. So. You know, I remember one time I got emotional and people looked at me and it was like. Their whole construct of strength was like in question for years and years and years. I just held onto OK. You can't cry. You can't be emotional. You got to hold. People are counting on you to lead in this moment of crisis.   INTRO   I have such an engaging, important episode for you today.  My guest is Fred Brown, the CEO of the Forbes Fund.  More on the Forbes Fund in just a little bit.  Fred ushers us into his experience as a Black man in America, delving into his personal losses, reflecting on the murder of George Floyd, and talking about the head trip of anti-black racism that caused him to question himself over the years as he advocated for meaningful, systemic change.  His story is compelling and immediate and important.  And I will introduce you more fully to Fred in a moment.    But first, I’d like to thank our two sponsors.  First is Fullstack PEO.  FullStack PEO is an employee benefits provider for entrepreneurs and small business owners.  In these uncertain times, benefits provide a sense of security for your people.  Let the talented staff at FullStack take care of benefits so you can grow your business.  We are also sponsored by Handle with Care Consulting.  With a range of trainings, keynotes, and online options, Handle with Care consulting empowers you to come alongside your people with empathy with they experience disruptive life events.   Now, back to the interview and Fred Brown.  Fred lives in Pittsburgh and has six children.       - Fred Brown My oldest sons. The engineer works for Caterpillar. He lives in Kansas. My next oldest son is 18. He's headed off to college. My next oldest son is 16. He's at home with us. My 18 year old is at home with us currently. I have a 13 year old daughter, my six year old daughter, and my four year old daughter and my wife. And so the seven of us. In the house all the time.   - Liesel Mertes We covered that full house and lots of opportunities for, I'm sure, all kinds of interactions. I am. I said I said to my husband recently, I said, thankfully, you know, I haven't wanted to divorce you. As a result of this, I have thought about if I could possibly divorce my children because there's so much always going on. So I hear you in that.   - Liesel Mertes Are you a man that has space for any hobbies or when you are not working? How do you like to fill your time?   - Fred Brown I like to fill my time of exercising. I used to like to fill my time reading. What with? Five kids in the house and school. You know, five different schools or three different school systems. That's difficult. Have family night every Friday. So, we do a family activity. We like to go camping before COVID. We used to like to go out every now and do some things. But since COVID, we've really begun to have deeper dialogue about race issues, about being an entrepreneur.   - Fred Brown And so, my hobby, the thing I love to do pre COVID is, I have a very stressful job, so I need to let my energy flow in a way it is positive. So, I like to work out. Yeah. And yeah, I like to work out a lot. I used to be ranked 13 for the country as a proud power lifter many moons ago and about 40, 45 pounds that goes with it.   In addition to being a self-described “gym-rat” who enjoys outlifting men half his age, Fred is the CEO of the Forbes Fund, a 37 year old institution that comes alongside struggling non-profits.    - Fred Brown When I ascended to the role of president CEO of the Forbes Funds in 2018, I immediately began to explore like the intersection of how can we promote the great aspects of organization is honor our history of being a supportive organization.   - Fred Brown Look at the role of technology and create a pivot that looks at what is emerging in the belly needs in this sector. And so we began to look at this notion of systems design and ecosystems development taken into account at every community, had its own typography, its own unique DNA. And then we don't want a cookie cutter approaches,   - Fred Brown We work with about a thousand non-profit organizations a year. There's about 20, several hundred in our area. And in southwestern P.A., there's over 80, 500 nonprofits.   The Forbes Fund has a strong team and are doing innovative things like funding catalytic community cohort, C3, that utilizes collective genius and mentoring relationships.  They have also just launched the Forbes Funds University in partnerships with local institutions that provide non-profit leaders with credit and continuing education opportunities.    Earlier that day, he was offering his expertise and leadership in a call   - Fred Brown And these kind of pivots have created phenomenal exchanges between philanthropy, between non-profit sector universities, community stakeholders and businesses. And I'm just excited about this stuff. I'm in the middle. And I just wish I was able to do more things.   - Fred Brown I yesterday, we were on a call with a group that wants to start a gardening program. And this is where being a thought partner is part of a role we play. So, we started talking about institutional racism. And they started to talk about the historical trends in their community. And we said, well, what would the metaphor be for digging up the earth and planting and see and nurturing a foster new growth of plants to be eaten and used by the community?   - Fred Brown Well, what would the metaphor be that you can rebirth a community? Put your hands in the soil? There's a cathartic experience there that could address racism, social injustices.   It is a powerful metaphor.  And as you have already heard, Fred is a savvy, smart practitioner who cares about the holistic person and the toll that racism is taking on the bodies of Black and Brown Americans.    - Fred Brown As people of color manage, we stay here for a while, for over two hundred years. There's an illusion that we're OK. And even in our own way, we convey that we're OK. But the data says other data says although we're managing, we have on average an eight year lifecycle difference we have financially we made. I think 70 cents on the dollar compared to our white counterparts.   - Fred Brown And we carry a burden of comorbidity issues, which has an aggravated impact on diseases and viruses like COVID, which in many cities we have three times the death rate as our white counterparts. And so although we might be managing the burden of being black in America is not without a cost.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, yeah, I am. There's an incredibly impactful book that I've read with and I've read now a couple of times within the last five years by Dr Bessel van der Klerk. It's called The Body Keeps the Score, and it's all about trauma and embodied trauma and just the fact that it shows up in our physical health. And it's been something that I've pondered in my own journey. And as I over the last couple of months have extended my imagination into more of those data points, whether that is, you know, like the neonatal care and pregnancy complications.   - Liesel Mertes And just regardless of, you know, education level or economic level, that there's so much lower, you know, for black Americans.   - Liesel Mertes And to think like, yes, that's because the body is literally like holding on to generations of absorbed trauma. And just as I as I avail myself to listen to more stories and try to think like, what would it feel like if when I sent my 10 year old son out bike riding, that I was just worried about his, his safety all the time because of how he looks, you know, like I can't even extend to imagine that. But I, I don't I, I don't understand.   - Liesel Mertes But I'm hearing differently being like. Yeah, what a horrible toll on your body.   - Fred Brown You know, I think that many of us. We arrive at a point in our existence where we just accept what is. And we. We learn how to navigate that. How can you accept being killed? Over possibly a fake 20 dollar bill or selling single cigarettes or. Sitting in your car and reaching for your license is very different. You know, when I talk to other people and they never worry about these things, they don't ever have to tell their kids the story.   - Fred Brown OK, do this when the police pull you over and you're going to get pulled over. Do this in the store when the police are a private detective, ask you, what are you looking for? Do this when you drive into community. And his gaited. Is there is this these next level? Requirements that you have to educate your kid on. You know, they're really. It's common place for us. But this is not natural, mother, other people are not doing that.   - Fred Brown So I think there's an extra burden both on the child. You know, my four year old. I took her my daughter would go bike riding every night are my six and my four year old. So we're all riding last night. And we're eating some French fries and corn and, you know, just took a break from writing. And some people came up that I know and they came to talk to me and she said my four year old said, white people kill black people.   - Fred Brown She's four. Yeah, her external expression that people know is that they're going to kill me or they go kill somebody black. And I said, where'd you get that from? She said, "that's what they said on the news."   - Fred Brown How did you. I don't know. I don't know. That's difficult. But, you know, I have to sleep on that.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Well, there, you know. I there are that you wish that you could say it was like a boogie man, like, no, that wouldn't happen to you. Like, no, you're safe. Like we want to extend to our children a sense of. There's so much we do as adults to protect them.   - Liesel Mertes And there are the is that we can't take away, you know, and. I can't imagine in this room what that's like. You know, as a parent in. In my own experience, there's, you know, my, my children have had a sibling die. And I would love like they have a really real sense of like will another one of my brothers or sisters die. And I'd love to be like, no, that will never happen.   - Liesel Mertes But that wouldn't be true. Like, that could happen. And I can't imagine to extend that to just meta like deeply a sense of, that is a possibility. And that kind of way.   - Liesel Mertes You've as we mentioned at the top of the interview, you've you've had, your father's died within the last three weeks.   - Liesel Mertes You lead an organization that is really attuned to the needs of your community. I imagine that watching these events on the news also connects to, like your own personal experience of life as a man in a black body. What has it? What is what is it occasioned? What is that felt like for you to live the last three weeks?   - Fred Brown That's a heavy question. Not that it's not real. So in 1996. I began to do some social justice and environmental justice work, and at that time a young black man was killed in Brentwood, Brentwood. P.A. as a result of a truck traffic stop. Named Jonny Gammage.   - Fred Brown And so I helped organize the city. The black community around protesting, peaceful, protesting, marching, demanding more laws to protect citizens and accountability for police. And so I thought, OK, we did that work. We made some progress. Not a lot, but somewhere in my psyche, I thought, OK, that was done. And I'm onto the next thing.   - Fred Brown The next thing was I began to ramp up my work as a probation officer and I buried about 50 plus kids from gang violence during that same period and so I had gotten accustomed to go into funerals and and such.   - Fred Brown And 2001, when I was in graduate school working on my PTSD in a six month period, I had six family members and friends there. My grandmother, my uncle, two cousins, my best friend's mother and a friend. And it it became a burden.   - Fred Brown And I told somebody in an interview one time, I feel like I'm walking around a coffin on my back, literally. So, you know, I realize I'm getting crispy burnt out in this work with kids. And I think they're so important that I don't want to stop the work. So I continue to do the work and I continue to rise up in the system.   - Fred Brown So my thought process and theory changes if I get high enough in the system. I can promote systems change, which will alter these kids lives.   - Fred Brown So I do that now, figure out as I get up, work into the system. The system has no desire to change. It has no desire to be different. It has no desire to meet people way of way.   - Liesel Mertes And so can you tell me a little bit more about that? I feel like that is a powerful statement that I would love for you to unpack a little bit more. What were you observing?   - Fred Brown I was observing that there is a level of institutional racism within the system that perpetuates the need for actors to be arrested for not have a resolution to common problems, i.e., a kid could not get off her probation unless they paid their restitution. A kid couldn't get restitution paid for in a job because they were on probation. And so, it was these kind of vicious cycle is where you looked at the common person, what they just they just need to get a job and then they can get off a restitution.   - Fred Brown Well, how does that work? A kid with a juvenile record with a record who's supporting that? And then if the kid is a juvenile, you've got to get special permission to work. You know, it's just it's just a burden and it creates a condition where there's just a vicious cycle. And then you see that the cycle trends upward as these kids who can't break the cycle as juveniles become adult offended, they just continue to recidivate. And you see very clearly there were point points of departure where people could have did something different.   - Fred Brown And they, they didn't or couldn't. And, you know, I remember another experience when I worked on South and Charlotte. And this was probably most difficult job I've ever had is a PP social worker, a permanency planning social worker. And basically, in short, you determine whether if we came to your house and your husband and God forbid, got into fisticuffs or fight or whatever, and there was some concern about the kids, we might remove the kids.   - Fred Brown You guys sort that out. Or if you put your hands on a K is doing a fisticuffs and that kind of stuff. And so we kind of determine whether or not people got their kids back. And what I noticed in that system was middle class people fared better than everyday low income people.   - Fred Brown Training might be scheduled for you to go to five classes on parent engagement, behavior modification, anger control. You know any of these? No classes. The classes were usually offered dawn workday. So a person that is middle class or has a job, the salary. They can go to their boss or be the boss or just say, hey, I'm going out. I'll be back at this time. No questions. But an hourly worker had to go get permission from your supervisor to miss work.   - Fred Brown And inevitably, the supervisors will say, hey, if you know I you're going to get fired.   - Fred Brown I don't know about whatever you're talking about because at the same time, you're not trying to tell somebody, hey, I got go to these classes to get my kids back. Right. There is a certain level of discretion you're trying to to manifest just for your personal well-being. And so I just saw. Case after case where poor people were get were not getting the same benefit.   - Fred Brown And I took this concern to management. My supervisor told me to take it to higher levels of management. And I talk to the manager, the highest level of management. That's a set of choices because I had been doing this work for. 20 something years, and I knew about nontraditional service provider systems, social service networks and such. And I presented models to this director that maybe there's a way that we can mitigate the risk. And the director looked at me and said, why would we do that? And I said, because there's a disproportionate impact occurring to certain families based upon socio economic strata, which is having an adverse effect on their ability to get their kids back.   - Fred Brown And the highest ranking person in the institution said, we're not going to do that. I'm not interested. And I just in that moment, something that in me about humanity, something dad and me about, well, maybe they didn't understand. Maybe I wasn't a good communicator. Maybe. I didn't do a good job of explaining what I was talking about. So I went back and talked to other people. They were like, no, you were very clear, you know.   - Fred Brown And the thing that broke me was broke my spirit was to have a grown man come to your office and start crying and said you would destroy my family and you said you were going to help me. There's nothing you've done to help me. The services you need me to attend don't work on my for my hours. The restraints you have on me, Sam Martel, don't work for my hours. And so there was just a series of unparalleled opportunities. Supported all families. And it just got me to start thinking about, well, who writes these policies? It's not poor people.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah, and I hear I hear in that even like just to interject before we get you for the head trip, also that systemic institutionalized. Yeah, antiblack racism is in some ways in that, like you, you had to come away and think wasn't my fault. Like, did I not explain myself well enough like that? It turned inward like that.   - Fred Brown Like, well, maybe I didn't do a good enough job when really it gets back to. Like, no, we we purposefully want to keep it this way, whether by design or just general apathy. Because it doesn't matter enough. So yeah, I imagine that’s the nuance of what it does. The self questioning. What causes you to have somewhat of a psychosis about? Are you in it? Are you in the Twilight Zone?   - Fred Brown Are the things you're suggesting just so unrealistic? Or is there a, is there a strategy here that intends to keep people in the places that they're in and you don't want to believe that because you're working on the side of justice.   - Fred Brown You're working on the side of equity. You're working on a side of this notion. And I struggle with this when I was a probation officer. And I'm going back now. I'm more forward and I'm going back with, you know, as I became more a flaw with the court system and working with judges and dealing with a lot of gang stuff and not really understanding the plight of the state of these kids and their neurological pathways for their criminal thinking errors.   - Fred Brown And just you start understanding the science of this work, the human aspect of the work, the economics of the work, the poverty community, social structures. It's just there's a plethora of things that contribute to it. But when you start to peel it back. And you realize that you like doing this work because you actually think you can make a difference. And there's always a few people who make it like they, they create. And I call this the illusion of progress.   - Fred Brown Right. Just always has to be somebody that makes it, because if nobody ever made it, two people would stop having hope that there's a possibility to change. So I think the system allows for certain few people to make it. And I will say and those people do what they need to do to get through. All right. But over all, when you look at the preponderance of people who go through the system, the statistics on who's successful in it is not high, as you have to start wonder.   - Fred Brown Like, why is that? Why if our goal is to restore humanity and people, why do we say after somebody serves time for an offense? That they're a felon. But they did their time. Why are we now labeling them? And we know that that label is going to discredit their ability to have any measure of response and opportunity back in society. And now that label for act, they did time for which Anan's. I mean, it's like.   - Fred Brown If you put you and I have kids, if we put our kids on punishment. And at the end of the punishment, you're still seen as being criminal. How does that work like you. Did your punishment? OK, let's start over. You got a clean slate. Mommy, daddy ain't mad at you no more. But here's what you need to be aware of, if that happens again, the punishment is going to be more severe or whatever that is right.   - Fred Brown But there is a point where a person is held accountable and then they should be allowed to restore their humanity. And get a fresh, strong start. They should be able to. Acknowledge their wrongdoings, come to grips with that and decide how they can move forward. Well, the first thing they have to do is reestablish yourselves economically to take care of ourselves. And that's a burden that they can't even get a job and housing. Yeah, then we are by nature.   - Fred Brown Knowingly, willingly, intentionally creating a dynamic that people are born recidivate. You're not giving them a chance to. Return to society, healthy and whole. You ask me to run a society where they sped up a race with one leg and with the title where you hit X.   - Fred Brown Yeah. And I just you just have to wonder, like. Nothing's changed since we've been putting people in jail and per capita, we have the house arrest rate and incarceration rate in a world. Yeah, it's an interesting, you know,   - Liesel Mertes Even, even just to take it to the really personal lived like level. You give the example with parenting. You know, if I have a child who lives and I punish them for lying, but then what it would it would be if I just you know, I was like, well, this is Ada the liar for the rest of her life. Why just that totalizing identity then to take on, you know, of every time I introduced her? This is Ada. She's a liar, you know. Yeah.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   - Liesel Mertes So we talk about disruptive life events on the Handle with Care podcast and the more interviews that I get to do and just in my work as a consultant. Grief is always localized within a particular community and that community is shaped by by family habits. You know, some people it's like grief is very taboo. You know, we keep a stiff upper lip. It's also shaped by, you know, by aspects of just communal norms.   - Liesel Mertes I can think of Karen, who she is, a Chinese American, and she talked about walking through her sister's suicide and like the very entrenched taboos of a Chinese, specifically a Chinese American culture and what that allowed her to do or didn't allow her to do. And so, this sort of specificity to community in dealing with hard things. And it's always like its own burden to ask someone to speak for an entire community. But I'd love to hear just from your personal experience, as you talked about, you know this.   - Liesel Mertes I think you use an evocative term. It when when the six people die that you were getting, it was   - Fred Brown Like walkin' around with a coffin on my back.   - Liesel Mertes Yeah. Yeah. And that you you just were lacking resilience. What was it like. What. What did your community offer you in ways or. First, let me just start with tell me more about what it was like to be walking around with a coffin on your back.   - Fred Brown That was difficult. And that the kind of person I am or what people expect from me is to not flinch in the face of adversity. I could never grieve. In a meaningful way. And I've never grieved in a meaningful way because. The role I typically play in this society that I live in is the caretaker provider and supporter. So. You know, I remember one time I got emotional and people looked at me and it was like. Their whole construct of strength was like in question for years and years and years.   - Fred Brown I just held onto OK. You can't cry. You can't be emotional. You got old. People are counting on you to lead in this moment of crisis. You're a leader. And so for years, I just. So I've got to leave. You know, when I was in graduate school and all of those deaths happened. I remember going to talk to people. And somebody asked me, why are you still in school? Why? What are you trying to prove?   - Fred Brown Like, want to go take care of your family? And deep inside my thinking and being was, I've never quit, so I can't quit now like I've gotten this far. And a PhD program, I'm from the hood. Nobody thought I would be here. Me quitting is just that's not an option. As I started to talk more more to people, what I would like has taken a toll on you. Is it worth it? Like, what are you having to prove?   - Fred Brown And a friend of mine is a mentor of mine. I say that's a piece of paper. The work that you do is transformational. You don't need a piece of paper to be transformational. And what what you said,   - Liesel Mertes I want to I want to just go back for a moment, because that is really interesting to me that that sense of where you'd come from, like you come from the hood you'd come so far. Was it. Was it.   - Liesel Mertes Was there an element that you felt of like a fear of like if I stop pushing, I might not keep going? Or like. Was that was that given to you by other people in your community who had celebrated how far you come? Did you feel like you were held up as something that you didn't have space for that? Tell me.   - Fred Brown Right. I would say that nobody told me I couldn't quit or nobody said if you quit your this or that. But. I'm celebrating. Whether I like that or not, people see me as somebody who's navigated the streets and made it. And so. Good, bad or indifferent? Live with that identification. This has driven me to push beyond my my bounds and understanding of my capacity.   - Fred Brown And, you know, one of the things I told the doctoral program, you know, because I was working on a degree and I was my dissertation was focused on Afro centricity as a theory of change.   - Fred Brown And I cut a lot of flack for taking up that mantle. But that was the origins of my existence. And so, I wanted to show that ethnocentricity was indeed a universal practice that could be applied across multiple ethnic groups and be successful. And I was actually doing that in a successful way.   - Fred Brown But want to get the piece of paper to say Dr. Brown wrote this book and he said this and that. And so, you know, the community was counting on me every time I went in.   - Fred Brown Some places there's like there go, he's going to be a doctor. That's Dr. Brown. So there was just this. And it wasn't intentional, but there was pressure like, you can't fail. People are counting on you. You will be the first doctor to ever live on this street. You know, people know that. And you give back and you're not protected. You're not going to move out and leave us.   - Fred Brown And so there was this symbiotic relationship with the community that I felt I had to uphold. And the reason that I saw myself even being capable of being in a PhD program was nothing added. But it was everything, the community important to me.   - Fred Brown So I never saw my experience in school as my experience. I saw it as the community's experience. And I was just a vessel of theirs. And so that that was very difficult that I use. The word broke me and I'll know if that's the right word. It humbled me, but it hurt. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes You mentioned that mentor who is saying that he saw a tool that was taking on you. Were you seeing that as well?   - Fred Brown I thought I knew it was a toll, but as a man who's a power lifter and who has this illusion that everybody thinks I'm in, you know, I shouldn't be bothered by stuff and I've taken on taking on that persona. I just saw it as another test. Like it was just like, OK, you've got to pass this test.   - Fred Brown You have to have a story to tell people like when this happened, this is how you did it. Like people are looking to you forces for solutions in the face of adversity. So adversity is part of your eco system. So this is no different. So why are you getting personal and breaking down? And, you know, why are you hurt? And, you know, and I was like. I've never. Was able to really. Deal with that.   - Liesel Mertes Mm hmm. Yeah. I am I'm struck that there is a certain distrust that white majority culture has towards strong emotions, specifically from black men and women. You know, I feel like you're so often labeled like this is this is an angry black man or angry black woman. And just that that big emotions are something that, you know, the majority culture doesn't really want to see and doesn't want to deal with. And that perhaps that that could also, you know, there could be a certain expectation as it relates to other strong emotions like grief or sadness.   - Liesel Mertes Did you feel any aspect of, you know, there's like community expectation, your strength, but just of you can't have too strong of an emotion like that that wouldn't be professional or possible? Was that any part of an expectation at all that you felt?   - Fred Brown I felt. Yeah, I felt like. I did show this pressure that I had to have equilibrium. I felt that. If I lost it, then that would signal to other people, it's OK to act like that and so that.   - Fred Brown I was always in this place that I was trying to get white America to realize that everybody is black, is not all drugs a gang member just making babies and not taking care of. And the greatest challenge that most black men is my size at that time. And intellect is you threaten white people when you walk in a room and you ask the intelligent question, especially one they don't anticipate. And so if I became passionate about things in particular around the death of black kids and talking to people, I was the angry black man.   - Fred Brown If I started asking too many questions, I was trying to be smarter than everybody else. So there was always this. Notion. Like, how did you create balance in the face of. The rhetoric that's not real. But. Is pervasive and dominant culture of pedagogy. This is very similar to what's going on now with many of my friends and colleagues.   - Fred Brown Now, as a result of seeing George Floyd's murder on TV and seeing the face of the actor not being moved, not having any compassion. Now people are like, OK, I get it. And the struggle that we have is people of color who are friends with those individuals is once again, was I not telling my story. Clear enough? Was I not a good communicator? Did you not hear me say just buried over 50 caged like is these just things is rolling off my mouth. It off my tongue to interpret subconsciously as not being real tangible. That that like.   - Liesel Mertes Man, if you could see my face, that just that's breathtaking. That. Of course, that feels like just one more iteration of feelings that you've had through the years. Yeah, that's powerful. It's I is a hard position right now.   - Liesel Mertes When I know I feel like, you know, tap. It happens a lot. People want to go and say, like, teach me, teach me about racism or or things like that. So not to not to ask you for, like, the history of it.   - Liesel Mertes You know, as, as we discuss empathy on the podcast, if there was something that you could just insert into the consciousness of white Americans as it relates to empathy for you as a black man right now, what would you want them to understand differently?   - Fred Brown That's a great question. I think one of the things I would want. Is. For them to see. Me and other black men and women are just as human as.   - Fred Brown As people were families, that. Really want the same things they want. We want the same kinds of attributes. We want the same acknowledgements. We want all of those things. And, you know, we we want a good space.     - Fred Brown Because I have to believe that the people I'm cool with that call me and ask me, you know, I was talking to somebody else today and they say, did you get the call?   - Fred Brown And as black people, we know what that means. Like, whenever something tragic happens, our white friends call us and say, and I feel so bad. I want it. And we don't think there's nothing wrong with that.   - Fred Brown But then people say, what can I do? And it's like, well, did you not see? Or hear me for 35 years complaining about this. Did you not, like hear me say I buried his killers, just came from a funeral?   - Fred Brown I had a rough week, you know, with a judge. Like, I got pulled over and it's like, so when I told you I got pulled over and I didn't do anything. Agent in the back of your mouth, were you thinking? Yeah, you probably do somewhere you wouldn't get got pulled over. And so you got upset. So it just makes you caucus. Now that. When you're talking to your friends or they. Listening or did they hear you?   - Liesel Mertes Right. Know, I hear that. I'd like to just because I know you have to go. When you were going through this period of loss or even as you're grieving now, two questions.   - Liesel Mertes First, I'd love to know what people did that made you feel supported. And then lots of times people do stupid stuff when they're trying to comfort. That actually doesn't hit the marks I want. I would love to know what made you feel supported and what made you feel totally missed, that you'd say don't do this stuff, It's just bad.   - Fred Brown I felt supported, especially in the last three weeks by my board or my team. And my special assistant cleared my schedule, not telling people particulars, but just saying he's out. He's not available. And then stepping into the role of all the things I do, a lot of people don't know I do. And that. Missing a beat. Just stepping into it and managing that.   - Fred Brown I think the second thing that was rewarding was my colleagues I work with around the country in the world to send flowers and plants or plants, not flowers, plants and cards.   - Fred Brown And I haven't read all the cards and just know people said, I want to talk to you, not send you a card or text you. And then in an. Kidding, having this happen while the George Floyd case occur. There's been a lot of people I work with having epiphanies about. I really wasn't listening to you. I really couldn't hear you. So, it's a watershed moment. I think the thing that. This is problematic.   - Fred Brown And I don't think this is anything anybody's done to me as much as it's something I've done to myself, which is I had this process in my mind and I could just turn it back on my creativity. So, I have four outstanding things I told people I was going to get to.   - Fred Brown Two weeks ago. I just have not had the mental space to do it. And it's not. And this and people are not. Not expecting it. They are expecting the innovation.   - Fred Brown And I'm so used to just coming through as I've done. Year over year in the past, where even in the face of adversity, actually some of these things make me dig deeper into. I need to answer. I need to answer. In this particular case, I'm tapped out.   - Fred Brown I'll have to answer a personal loss triggering another black man being a martyr in the work I did in 96 to now it just trigger a cascade of historical events and current events that are going harder is not going to resolve. And being innovative is not going to resolve.   - Fred Brown And so, I you know, and I'm inconsolable because I think I crown and said I'm not a outwardly cry, emotional guy set for when I'm angry. And so, because I walk into space and I'm in a meeting, I just facilitated a workshop.   - Fred Brown And people's work is perhaps this pass. And I thought he was off. And, you know, so I've been in what I would call high level of things. I didn't want to not I didn't want to fall apart or not move forward.   - Fred Brown And I knew people expected me to be there. So, I was there, but I was just there and. And body, not by spirit or soul. And, you know, interesting enough, today, my board and my board meeting, you know, my board was like, we need you to take a break.   - Fred Brown And it was interesting because one of my board members say we need you back at 150 to 200 percent. Like you always been not 100. Right. So, my board already is acknowledging you don't function at 100 percent. Yeah. You function at a 150 and 200 percent. And so, whatever you need to do to take a break, that's what we need back. We don't need this guy limping in at 100 percent because that's not who you are. And so that was compelling today to hear my board say to.   - Fred Brown And just acknowledge, like, dude, this is how you roll. Like, this is what he brought to the table. And so I'm conflicted with. How sustainable is that and. Is that what I need right now and cannot allow myself to grieve? And what does that look like? I don't know what that looks like. I know what I do when death occurs. I know what I do when tragedy occurs. I go to my office and that idea, I come up with solutions.   - Fred Brown And so, the next day people are like, well, what are we going to do? Would I say, here's, here's what I'm thinking. And peoples like, wow, that's a good idea. I didn't think of that. Are we going to do that? And everybody's like, yeah, we're gonna do it.   - Fred Brown And so, I'm just used to being able to turn it on. Hit the switch, go to another level. In this instance, there is no other level that I'm aware of. And it's not coming to me. I'm not having great insight. There's not a voice speaking to me. There's an emptiness that is compelling because the emptiness is in conflict with what's in my mind. Mm hmm, yeah. If that makes sense. Right on much swirling.   - Fred Brown Yeah, I'm. I'm able to write and create because of something that's in my heart disconnected to my mind that comes out to my ability to articulate that. But I realize in the void that exists exists now cannot conjure up, even though my intellectual thought process is driving solutions because my heart and soul have been eviscerating.   - Fred Brown I can't even grapple with the ideas not percolating to the tangible thoughts on paper. And I'm in this crazy because it's keeping me up all night, like I have these ideas, like I will do this and I would do that. I write it down to energy to to actually do the writing and to put everything together and create a serious change. It's not there. That's what I told my board. I say I'm not here. Like at an all my life I've been in all these places and doing all these things.   - Fred Brown I am not here right now and I have to acknowledge to my board because I have a responsibility to let you know that I am not all here. And. And at the same time, I'm not trying to sit up and say, I got a problem, like I need this, I need that, you know, because I want people to blaze. He fit, not fit to lead. You know, and so it's a conflict. Right.   - Fred Brown And you have to take time. And I haven't really taken time, like up almost every day. I was off, I did something, at least three things now compared to nine things.   - Fred Brown Three things is better, but still, right? Yeah, it's three things. It's work things. Right. You know, so like today I'm going from seven to nine.   - Fred Brown Yeah. All right. And no, nobody is thinking that's a lot. Or did he just have a tragedy? I think they think and that's just what he does. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.   - Liesel Mertes That, you know, those are important questions and. What, what it reminds me of, like I you know, when my daughter died, one of the the hardest voices that I had to deal with was my own, like, inner judgment, because these things that had come so easily and naturally, the things that it was just like, you know, like water off a duck's back, like, of course, I could, you know, execute on these projects and I'm in a graduate program and do all of it easily.   - Liesel Mertes Like all of those things were hard and grinding. And it was this sense of like, I don't even like myself that much if I can't, like, produce the way that I. And there was that own sense of, like myself judgment that was really hard to reckon with. And, you know, there is just like somewhat similarly, I'm a person who I render myself in words and actions. And to feel like that capacity, which was like my most natural language of expression, just was like.   - Liesel Mertes I had to struggle so much for that, and it was like, if I can't like, if I can't render myself that way. In this thing that matters so much like it was a sense of intense dislocation with myself. There was really heavy.   - Fred Brown So let me tell you, was heavier ball, which you just said is. You said this twice on this call. And I heard it the second time about your daughter. And that's an example of.   - Fred Brown I heard you, but I wasn't listening. And I'm struck by even more. Oh. Lack of. Acknowledgement that our hurting. So, let me first say my heart goes out to you as a parent for that loss. My heart goes out to you as a mother for the loss. My heart goes out to you as a human being. Who has to bury their child? Yes, the unnatural consequence. And I'm so unfortunately aware of that because of the many kids that I had to.   - Fred Brown Be a part of their transition. And listening to you and and understanding now. I think why you do this show. Is incredibly moving and. Courageous to do this over and over again when every time you as these deep penetrating questions, it's a reflection of your own experience with your own child. Like deep. Somebody to me, that's how I interpret that. Like how? And you know, I will tell you this. I have a litany of things to do that are canceled, but this was not one of them.   - Fred Brown I needed to be on here because I needed to talk. Right. No matter what it was, I need to be able to talk without an expectation, I had to do something right.   - Fred Brown I need to get my emotional content out in some form or fashion. What I'll say. OK, I'll get this proposal to you by tomorrow or so, because I know I know for a fact my team was wonder why I had this call. Like like why you to have this call with all this stuff going on. And I couldn't explain to to them that I needed this. I need this for me, I need to have some emotional exchange with someone that's not kov.   - Fred Brown It does not. George does not. Other is slight. I don't even know what it would be about. But, you know, depending on how you brought the story to life, I just need to be able to talk. From an unbiased perspective, without expectations and be authentic and courageous and listen intently. So thank you. Thank you for being patient with me. Even getting this set up. And I think you're a fantastic interviewer. You're very fluid and nonintrusive.   - Liesel Mertes Well, thank you, I I receive all of that wholeheartedly. And I can see even that that is a kindness of you even to, you know, I, I, I. It touches my heart that you would pause and say that because you're a man in a lot of his own intense moments. So, thank you for that gift of empathy, May I ask. Let me just the exchange names my daughter's name who died was Mercy Joan Mertes. What was the name of your father?   - Fred Brown My father's name is this transition is James Moler. It's a powerful thing to also know the names of someone is. Mercy,   - Liesel Mertes Mercy. Yeah, it was when we were we were praying and hoping for. Yeah. And even as I think of of calls for mercy and justice, she, she gets to be before me as something not yet actualized,   [01:11:55.930] - Fred Brown but beautiful. So. Wow. Powerful. Great story.   [01:12:07.300] - Liesel Mertes Thank you.   MUSICAL TRANSITION   Here are three key takeaways from my conversation with Fred Systemic racism in America is real, insidious, and persistent.Fred talked about personal grief over the state of things, the way that systems, whether that was the probation system or family reunification system, were established and maintained in ways that hurt lower-income black men, women, and children.  I have not been wounded by these systems, but it is important for me to listen to the stories of those that have, to believe them, and to advocate and usher in meaningful change.  If Fred’s story piqued your interest, there are links to the Forbes Fund as well as to a good primer for educating yourself on these issues in the show notes. Be careful what you convey/expect from a leader that is grieving.Are you expecting them to just keep on churning, without pause?  Fred has a beautiful commitment to his community.  He felt like his accomplishments were not just for him but also for his community.  He felt an expectation of strength and persistence from his community and that messaging kept him (in part) from fully grieving.  We all need a place to grieve and just to be, without an expectation of performance.Fred talked about feeling compelled to keep our interview date, even with a dozen other pressing commitments.  That having an unbiased listener allowed him to be authentic and courageous.  His words towards me were kind…and this show gives me the opportunity to really listen to a story.  But it can be hard to do in our personal lives, when there are so many demands and questions that we want to ask and subtle agendas or conditioning that keep us from really being available and showing up.  May we be and may we become a safe space for those that make up our community.   OUTRO   Link to Forbes Fund:  https://forbesfunds.org/ Workplace and Rcae Reading List:  https://hbr.org/2020/06/confronting-racism-at-work-a-reading-list Anti-Racist Resource List (books, movies, podcasts, articles). https://medium.com/wake-up-call/a-detailed-list-of-anti-racism-resources-a34b259a3eea  

“What I'll remember most is...” In mid-May, while cases were still rising in Amarillo and before the worldwide protests following the death of George Floyd, host Jason Boyett asked local listeners to call in and record the events, experiences and feelings they would remember most from the Coronavirus pandemic and shutdown. This final COVID Chronicles episode features the voices and perspectives of 24 different listeners in Amarillo, Canyon and elsewhere in the Texas Panhandle. This episode is sponsored by Shemen Dental and Blue Handle Publishing. As usual, things may have changed by the time you listen.

James: Hey audience and listeners this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have an awesome guest, his name is Ronnie Philip. Ronny is from Dallas he's part of Kingly Acquisitions, owns almost 572 right now assets under management and focusing a lot in Atlanta and Texas, right? Texas market in San Antonio, say hey, Ronnie, welcome to the show. Ronny: James, it's an honor to be on your podcast. So, thanks so much for having me. James: Thanks for coming in. I always like to bring people who are able to add value to the audience, and, you know, I know you personally and I think we've met like 3 or 4 years ago or so, maybe 2 years ago, I can't remember. But, you know, we know pretty-- for the past few years and, you know, just impressed with all the mindset and the progress that you have made, you know, being in, you know, mid 20's, right? So, and you're doing big things, so, why not you tell our audience about yourself? Whatever I missed out there and you know something about yourself, before we get into the more detailed topics. Ronny: Okay, great. So, I guess you can start out from the very beginning of my real estate career. I start in 2015, I dropped out of college, I was supposed to go to pharmacy school, I was like, three classes away from applying, but after working in a major retail pharmacy, I realized that wasn't the end game. So, I dropped out of college end of 2013, got my real estate license, and became a real estate agent. And then from there, I started helping people buy and sell homes and, you know, and that was fun. And then I realized-- James: Hey, hold on. You have to get started again, I lost you just now. Yeah. 1- 2- 3. Ronny: So, yeah, to give you a little bit of background about myself. I started off in real estate in 2015. So, I dropped out of college when I was 21 years old, end of 2015. My background is medical, actually. So, I've done a lot of things in the medical field from home health to work at hospitals and then pharmacy, and I was applying for pharmacy school end of 2015. And then, I realized the job market back then was really tough. So, people weren't able to get jobs full-time in the pharmacy. so, by the time I would graduate, which would have been this year, 2020, I just didn't feel like that outlook would have been great. And I was right; a lot of my friends who are in a pharmacy, unfortunately, aren't able to obtain jobs. So, I think one gift God's given me is foresight. So, I was able to see that. So, that's when I got into residential real estate as an agent. So, I started off as an agent, helping people buy and sell homes, and then went into flipping houses, you know, with investors, and just kind of went from there. So, helped my dad with flipping houses so, pretty much from finding the deal to, you know, rehab everything from start to finish. And that was pretty good, and then I realized those two businesses weren't scalable. So, end of 2016, I realized I need to find a different way to create wealth because you can build up a residential real estate team as an agent for like a major brokerage and then sell it for a good equity multiple, I realized that because a few of my friends did that. And I wanted to build something I can build up and sell, right? And something that's backed by real true hard assets, and I saw in the single-family space, that wasn't scalable as well. So, I decided, June 2017, I formed Kingly Acquisitions, and I was like, "Okay, I'm going to end it 2017, I'm going to finish out my residential stuff and then only focus on multifamily." and, you know, moving forward. And that's when I met you, I met you at a conference, you know, and we became friends and, you know, the whole story from there, you know. I remember literally a month after a conference, you posted in a Facebook group, "Hey, there's an opportunity to learn or by due diligence." and stuff, right? So, I drove down to San Antonio and then helped you on one of your acquisitions from lease auditing to unit walks and I learned quite a lot and it's crazy. Like, I think probably less than a year and a half later, I closed on my first deal-- first deal in Texas, that'll be my third deal, 208 units in San Antonio. So, I think the power of visualization is real. So, that's kind of my background. James: Absolutely. You have gone a lot. So, I want to go back to the beginning. So, you know, to make sure that I don't miss out some of the details that you have given. Is this your first podcast? Ronny: Multifamily, I think so. I don't think I've done any other interviews. I've interviewed a lot of people-- [Crosstalk] James: Now you're being interviewed by me.  Ronny: Yeah. James: So, Ronny used to have a, and maybe he still has it, is a TV show, right? I can't remember what's the name of it.  Ronny: Yeah. I have 2.  James: Yeah. Ronny: Yeah, the Ronny Philip Show and then the Commercial Cash Flow Show.  James: Yeah, he does a really good job interviewing people but now he's getting interviewed so, it's my turn right now. So, I think one thing that I want to make sure that the audience and listeners understand when Ronny says that I posted in the Facebook group, I basically posted for help or due diligence for one of our property in San Antonio and that group was like 20,000 people, right? And, well, while that group, 20,000 people, it's actually a multifamily Facebook group where all the 20,000 people want to invest in multifamily, everybody want to do it, but there's only one person who said, "Okay, I'm going to come down tomorrow." Not because he's in San Antonio, he's in Dallas, and I'm sure there's thousands of people out of that 20,000 from Dallas and California, even from San Antonio. But, you know, the burning desire to really learn, you know, it's only being shown by the people who are really serious. And as I said, there's 20,000 people in that group, everybody want to be multifamily investor but when someone tell them that, "Hey, there's a free training here, come down now, I'm going to give you guys a free training." That's what exactly I mentioned in my post. I said, "I need help with some due diligence, you guys come, you can learn, this is real hands on." But I started seeing everybody giving reason, "Oh, I got something tomorrow, I got something today and I wish I'm in San Antonio." Well, I mean, to be really successful in life you have to take action, right? And you have to make the move and that's why Ronny, you know, now you know he's owning like almost 573 units because he took the action, right?  So, if any of you listening who thinks that you want to be a multifamily investor, who'd love to be able to, really ask yourself whether you really want to be. Because people who really want to be, would take action and would, you know, take the first step, right? Especially when I was giving a free training, it's an on-site training, no gurus out there teach on site due diligence, right? Everybody take them to a bus, a bus to go and show you the outside, "This is what we buy." They show you the number on Excel, they do two-day conference and they sell all kinds of courses. But I was saying, "Hey, come and I'll show you the real stuff."And people didn't want to do it. So, I'm just saying that, you know, when someone say they really want to do something, most of the time, they really do not want to do it. I mean, they just don't have the burning desire. But people who have burning desire, I mean, the people that you have seen out there who has been very successful, they have taken the action, they really have a burning desire. So, that doesn't mean you can't change your, you know, your wants to a burning desire, you can, just make sure you go deep into yourself and ask whether you really want to do it. So, I just want to give a credit to you because I remember very clearly when I posted my request in that group that had like almost 20, 000 now, I think that group is like 31,000 people. Out of 20,000, maybe 5 people responded giving reasons and one person said, "I'm coming tomorrow."And it was you, right? And I'm sure you really learned a lot on that day, right? When you come, right? Ronny: Oh, it was absolutely a great learning experience, and that helped me, not only in the tangible skill sets of, you know, the property walk, what to look for exteriors, you know, interior walks, lease auditing, all those different things helped me get to really understanding when I go and do my own deal, what to look for. And it's just crazy, like, you know, a little over a year later, I closed on my own property in San Antonio, which is, it just blows my mind, I own in San Antonio now, you know? James: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, yeah, you have to take action, right? I mean, you know, once you take action, you should be able to get somewhere rather than just talking. So, there's no point of doing that. So, coming back to your-- you had a good foresight that if we graduate this year, 2020, it's going to be a bad year for any jobs right now, because we have like almost, what? 30 million people right now unemployed. I think we have 30 million people but, it's a lot of people unemployed and it's just not the best market for any jobs right now. And what is the biggest issue that you saw in single families, and you said not scalable, not able to sell, is that is that the biggest one? And how many single families did you work on before saying that multifamily is the way to go? And how did you get that moment that multifamily is the way? Ronny: Yeah. So, I guess on both sides, coming from the agent side, and on the investment side, not sure the number of transactions, well over 20, I would say. I think, just realizing on the agent side, when you build up a real estate sales team, and you become an agent, and you're having like 30, 40 people working for you, and the revenues like, on a 1.5 million, right? As far as commission, you can't really sell that. You can't sell that team for any money. Like, I know, one friend, he was the top agent in a major market, right? Some multiple case studies, you know, Phoenix, North Carolina, and then Alaska, and they sold their businesses between 80 to 120,000, something that they built for six years. Yeah, and I was shocked. And then maybe that, you know, 2-year referral fee and stuff. And then when I realized, I went all in, I joined a Mastermind, dropped like 12-grand on a Mastermind. I was like, 22, it's not like I had just a ton of money lying around, but I invested myself to accelerate growth. And I've always done that in expansion mode, especially in our 20's. Like, it's really important to be in expansion mode. So, I realized on that side that, that's not scalable. And then when I started flipping, you know, doing, you know, few projects a year, I'd say probably 3 or 4, but those 3 or 4 projects like, was doing everything, right? Managing the general contractor, you know, sometimes doing sub-contracting, trying to get the project together, sourcing materials, finding deals, being on wholesalers list, I literally used to get 100 emails a day, and I got sick of it. I got sick of it. And I realized like, could I have scaled up business? Yeah, but did I want to know? No. Right? Because I think it was after going to that conference and meeting you, I came to the realization that, "Hey, this is actually something that's scalable, if you can work hard." And it takes the same amount of effort to do a big deal, as it is to do a small deal.  So, that's from a book called What it Takes: Pursuit to Excellence by Stephen Schwarzman, he's the co-founder of Blackstone. So, I realized it wasn't scalable when it came to that. So, I just thought, like, whenever you build a business, like can you build it up to sell it? And if you can't, why are you in the business? You know, it's like, let's just say something happens to me and, or whatever, right? Would I be able to pass this down to my family? On the single family sited and on the residential agent side, it's really hard to. So, that's why. James: So, I mean you are 26 years old, right? I mean, you, probably when you started you were 24 year old, I mean, you are looking at-- I mean, so yeah, okay, so you said, "Forget about single family, I want to look at multifamily." Did you have your age as a limitation? Say, "I'm a young guy, you know, all these guys are-- How am I going to buy this multi-million dollar deals?" Did you have that on yourself and how did you overcome that? Ronny: I never really looked at my age as a disadvantage, to be honest. I feel like I have an advantage because like, ask anyone, right? If you could change-- if you could go back to 26 like, how much money would you pay to go back to 26? James: I would pay a lot.  Ronny: Exactly, right? But that's nothing no one can do, right? They can't go back in time, right? So, I think as far as age goes, that-- well, I felt like that was an advantage. James: Got it. Yeah, it's a very impressive. I mean, I'm sure a lot of listeners out there who are listening to you, a lot of them are agents as well, some selling single family and I never understand why a lot of agents like to do transactions. I mean, same thing with brokers and multifamily, but a lot of them just like to do transaction. I mean, not say I don't understand, I can understand some people like to do transaction, they want to take less risks, because once you come to the investment side of it, you're taking a huge risk. So, your mindset, your characters, your tolerance to risk is different, right? So, I can understand why is that, but I mean, with the knowledge that any agents have, they can make a lot more money coming into the investment world, right? Is there any advice that you want to give to any real estate agent on why they should move on to the investment world and not just to do, buy as an agent or to sell as agent? Even though that seems to be very lucrative.  Ronny: Yeah, I think you know, it all depends on your preference, right? So, I think being an agent definitely has its advantages, but one thing I learned is like if you stop being an agent, then what happens? You know what I mean? Like, where's the money you're making going, right? Are you-- if you're investing in properties whether single family or investing passively in apartments or, you know, being a general partner on a large apartment complex, like what we're doing, you just have to really see what it is. So, advice for agents, just say, I'm going to give advice to someone around my age, getting-- let's just say they just got out of college, right? And they want to do what I'm doing, the path I would recommend them taking, is let's just say, they, you know, they're 22 right now, and they just got a finance degree, right? What I would do is, I'd go work at a large brokerage, right? Marcus and Millichap, CBRE, Cushman, JLL, any of these ones, right? Be an analyst, learn that side, then get into investment sales, right? And why? What is the skill sets in multifamily, right? Net worth, liquidity, track record, raising equity, sourcing deals, asset management, property management, the list goes on, right? So, I think it's building skill sets one by one by one, because whenever you're young, most likely, unless you sold a tech company, you'd have a big balance sheet with liquidity, right? Well, you have other aspects in that, you know, list of skill sets as a general partner on what to do, right? So, I'd start off as an analyst, then go into investment sales, and why is that? You build the skill of underwriting, right? And keep in mind, a broker's underwriting and principal's underwriting are almost always different, right? So, do that, then getting into the brokerage side and you start building relationships with owners and you want to become known, right? So, become known in the commercial real estate space. You can be the broker, right?  Everyone, there's a lot of younger guys in the field that I really admire, just because their work ethic, right? So, they become owners and then what I'd do to transition to the GP side is, I'll start investing passively into sponsors I want to partner with, right? For example, James, say I'm a broker, right? I'd started passively investing in your deals, right? Whether it's, I'm selling you a deal or whether it's another one, right? And I would invest in markets I want to know about, San Antonio, Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, you just name it, right? Whatever market you want to be in. And I feel like that is a good transition to becoming a principal. Another alternative would be trying to go work for a sponsor, like James or like myself, or like any of these groups out there. One thing I've learned is not-- right? Whenever it comes to that aspect so, that would kind of be my advice on people wanting to get into the business. Understanding, being a being a broker, it can be lucrative, being a general partner can be lucrative and being a passive investor can be lucrative. Study all three and decide which one you want to do, but there's a certain path that comes to all of them. James: Yeah, I mean, right now, even I have multifamily brokers and sponsors as well investing passively with me as well, right? So, they asked for reasons why they invest, but it's a good way to learn how other people operate, right? Sometimes you think you know everything, right? But you're absolutely right. I mean, you can go and work as an analyst and you can go into the investment sales and learn how the business is done, or get to know how the true business, right? I mean, sometimes our circle of friends or circle of influence is so small, we think this is how it's being done but, I can tell you this, like three, four levels above any level, right? That you need to be able to explore and able to grasp what are the complexity, right? And you can really learn a lot from that levels, right? So, I mean, you have done a lot of investor relationship building and you've looked at a lot of deals and you know, bought some of it, and at the same time, what do you look for in a deal when you look for a deal?    Ronny: As far as a deal wise, so I'll give you our markets, Texas and Georgia primarily. I like Tennessee and Florida as well, but I think primary focus is definitely Texas and Georgia. Primarily, we focus on B and C class value, add. So, true value adds where there is actually room for growth as far as rents go, as far as management goes, I have one common denominator on all the deals I'm in as there has been management deficiencies, right. So, there's always ways to improve that, and the guys I partnered with have brought property management in house. So, that definitely helps a lot, as far as you know, making things run more efficiently. So, the markets I'm currently in are, Atlanta, Georgia, specifically submarkets Stone Mountain, and then it's like, East Point area, but Atlanta proper, just four miles west of the airport, and then San Antonio on the northeast side. So, we're looking for pretty much every value add, right so I think it has to have diverse employers, job growth definitely has to be there. So, those are some of the things I look for.   James: Got it. And I also understand that you are able to build a lot of connection with investors, right, to raise money from them and invest in this kind of deals. And I think you have tried out many different methods in connecting with investors who are looking for this kind of opportunities, right. So, can you talk about some of the methods that you think, very efficient or most successful? And what do the investors look for when they want to invest, like 50 hundred thousand or 200,000 with you?   Ronny: Yeah, I think, really, first and foremost is caring about investors as people is really important. That's definitely important, as you're raising money this is a mindset is actually instilled in me.  James: Okay. Ronny: I didn't know any better, right? So, they were just like, Ronny raising money is the easy part. Right? So, I just said, okay, raising money is easy and that's what I'm known for, that's one of my strongest skill sets. In a general partnership is raising the equity, right. First, you got to really make sure you understand what your investor wants, right. So, I think it's having like a really thorough process. Let's just say, hey James, I need you at a conference, for example, right. What I'll do is I'll get you a card, I'll follow up with you, you know, then within the next day or the next week or so, right. And then set up a time for a call, schedule a call, and then I just start asking him specific questions. Hey, what's your dummy Lobo by yourself, what's your background? Did you invest in single family? Have you invested in multifamily before every cash flow investor? Is that really important to you? Or are you a value-add investor or are you a hybrid? And our minimum is usually between 50 to 100. And, we do probably a deal a quarter, want to see what markets you invest in, what your capacity is, right. As far as it goes, we had different types, right. And then, understanding if they're a sophisticated understanding, if they're an accredited investor or not, and then I label it in my database and go from there. And then I'd be sure and stay in touch with them and just kind of go from there, but it's building a true relationship. When it comes to investors like a one thing I always like to say, is my friends become my investors and my investors become my friends. So, it's all about building the right relationships with people and understanding what their goals are. Like, for example, let's just say my dad, he's in his 50s, and he's retired, right. And his primary thing is cashflow, right. So, that's a different type of investor, if I have a deep value add deal, right. You want the cash flow, right.  Well, let's just say, a younger guy like myself, I like value add deals, I don't really need that much cash flow, because I can take more risk right now, right. So, you have to understand what type of investor you have, and then label accordingly in your database and stay in touch with them. They're not just investors they're people. So, that's what understanding what their long-term goals are, and how can they grow together, like how can you help them grow in their investment experience? How can you make it the best experience possible? What are some things we can do? Like when I do videos, updates, I keep in touch with my investors. Every time we do a monthly update, say, hey, did you have any questions? Right. So, I think it's really caring about the investors as people is the most important thing. And really getting detail when you're having an investor call, to really understand the school into detail, ask the hard questions. And that you can, for example, let's just say you're doing a 506-c offering and can only do a credit investor on my CRM, I can just click a credit investor, and it pulls up the list of people. And I take detailed notes of every call, right. A lot of people I've seen who have struggles in raising equity, don't take the time to really understand who their investor is, and then also understand, hey, which markets do they invest in? Some of my investors, Texas only, right. Some are like, hey, as long as it's the same type of criteria and then you have to understand, ask them what their expectations are. Cash returns, IRR, equity multiple, hold time, right. Ask them that first and then say, hey, this is what our acquisition criteria is, and then see if it matches.   James: Yeah, it's very interesting. Listen, let me break it down a bit more, because I think it's very important for people who are looking at raising money from others to understand and also for passive investor, when you want to look for sponsors who are really asking all this question, because it shows that they care about you. I mean, so what you're saying is ask them about themselves at the same time, ask about the investment goals, whether it's cash flow, whether it's equity multiple or they're trying to multiply their equity for value investors, I get to just keep on going into details of what is the understanding, I think that people know that you really care about them. You're trying to just understand, what's their objective in investing with you or investing within real estate, that's a very valuable method that you have just let us know.   Ronny: So, I mean, I just think it's really important for people do that upfront. Because as you get, let's just say go to conference, you get 20 business cards, right? You can just keep those stacked for a while there's like a certain amount of time, or it just becomes awkward to follow up after like two or three months or whatever, right. So, I think following up immediately after we have talked to them is really important. And then getting a time to set things up and making sure you have everything tracked. So, that way you can just really understand what their goals are, hey, I'll be ready to invest in Q4, I'll have a default few, full deals that sell at the end of the year, I'm ready to Invest now, right. Because some people want to invest with you, but they can't because they're not like that. So, that's another thing to understand is your investors timeline.   James: Correct. I think just keeping that relationship is just as important, right. People appreciate you and they know that you're serious and they just have that trust with you, right. I mean, at the end of the day, we are trying to have a win-win situation where they are trying to find an opportunity, and as a sponsor you are trying to raise the money for your investment deal. So--   Ronny: And also, another point I'd like to add, it's, I'm not raising money from investors, I'm providing them an opportunity to invest. Right, because I think it's a different mindset. Whenever you feel like you're raising money, which you essentially are, right. You don't want to come off as desperate you can say, because there's actually only a few limited spots on the deals, like our deals fill up relatively fast, right. Even like the San Antonio deal, I mean, that was the fastest race that I have ever done. Like it was just, I mean, every deal is so different, right. So, it's just understanding that and then not putting pressure on investors, like say, hey, let us know, like we even had a deal we had under contract during COVID, right and a very large scale, very large equity raises. And, I was raising money for that one, everything was going well and stuff and then the whole shutdown happened, right. And then people started messaging me and saying, hey, I want to invest in the deal, but I'm not sure what my business is going to look like in the next few months or whatever. I said, no problem, whenever you're ready, just this, let me know. So, you shouldn't be pressuring whenever it comes to talking with investors, but you also have to have a sense of urgency as well. So, it's a healthy balance.   James: Got it. Yeah, it's a skill by itself. Clearly, it's just a gift by itself right on how you communicate with investors and people love that you are being open and direct and honest about it. It's just how the raising of money. Communication works with investors, right. So, I mean, you have been into a lot of due diligence of properties, right. So, is there any due diligence that you thought was like, I didn't think about that that's very interesting aspect of the deal, or something that you learn during due diligence that you want to share with our audience?   Ronny: As far as due diligence goes, I think it's really important to have the right team. For the guys, I've partnered with for the past three deals, it's the same core group, right. And I think all of us have complementary skill sets in getting things done. Even having them having property manager in house, like when we're doing due diligence on a deal, we had under contract earlier this year, it helped a lot. Everything was in house, we have the lead, the blogs and stuff. So, I think it's really making sure you have the right team, as far as deal specific on one of the deals is like stab blocks. So, realizing how expensive--   James: I haven't found, and I know about it. I mean, just for the audience, that blog is actually a circuit breaker, electric circuit breaker which can cause fire to be easily triggered, right? And the insurance market is expensive and sometimes the lenders can give problem when you have a blog. But when it's a very subtle way, you have to really know when you're doing due diligence to look for these kinds of things. So, go ahead. You were saying about this.  Ronny: Yeah. So, I have like an experienced team. Yeah. So, I just thought that was a surprising, because I've done due diligence on many of your deals, many of my own, many for other sponsors, and there's always something new when it comes to that, but I think having the right team, like having a construction team on site, all the different trades, do everything in one day. Ideally, it was like a 200-unit deal. Usually it will take like a day, if it's like more than that, it will probably take like, two days, right.  James: So, then step breakers was found by the sponsors, or was it found by the Inspector? Because it's very tricky to find that. Ronny: Yeah. Oh, yeah.  James: Was he like, he didn't know when before buying the deal? Only when you walk it through the--?   Ronny: I must be-- James: Right.  Ronny: I'm not sure on that. Yeah. I think so.  James: It must be, they didn't tell you.  Ronny: Yeah. James: They didn't tell you.   Ronny: Yeah. So, we found that and then that's being addressed. Yeah. So, I think that's important. And so, it's also, I just used auditing.   James: Before you go to list auditing, I mean I just want to make sure that I communicate this to brokers that are listening. Please let any major things that you already know, for anybody who was coming and visiting, you want to let them know, because you do not want them to get caught after the day add money. Ronny: All right.  James: I've seen brokers who hide things from me. And, I don't really appreciate it because it's like you're trying to trap us into a day add money and now you cannot get out, right. I mean, if you find out about the step lock breakers later on, I mean, I have walked properties on my own. I meet this single guy who is a broker and I told him, hey, this property as a step lock and I do not know whether they know or not, but I'm surprised they didn't. I mean, this is an experienced broker this is not like newbie, right. So, I would really appreciate any brokers, stamp log, any asbestos, right, on the drywall. Please let the buyers know, so that we can get the transaction closed smoothly rather than having a surprise. So, we don't feel like we got caught by the brokers and of course brokers can say they didn't know right, but if they didn't know, I mean I've questioned their experience level, right. The credibility and the same with sellers, I mean the buyers also want to have a long-term relationship with the brokers. So, we really appreciate brokers letting the buyers or sponsors know all the issues with the property, so that when we buy, we have going on smooth sailing. Especially now with pre-COVID, we are having post COVID right now, we are in a buyers’ market. So, day one adds money, is so last year. So, yeah, you want to make sure you've done everything so that the transaction goes smoothly. So, it's back to you.  Ronny: Yeah, I think transparency is key. I was just going to add on like lease auditing, having the right property management team, like the guys have Code GP, they have a person with like 20 plus years of experience. So, time is something that they have, right. So, I think that's as far as experience goes. So, having the right team is really important, and then focus on what you're strong at. And then, what you're not so good at or still learning, have other people on the team be able to take care of that. So--   James: Got it. Is there any proud moment in your life until now? I mean, I know you're just like 26, but at least you have like three, four years of multifamily experience right, or real estate experience. Is there any proud moment in your life that you think that, I cannot forget that until the end?   Ronnie: Yeah. Closing my first deal. That was probably something I'll remember forever. That was a deal, it was 212 units in Atlanta Georgia and grazes between my first deal and my second deal. I think it's probably less than three weeks between my first closing and my second closing, because we were both under call, that was kind of interesting. So, and then signing my first Fannie Mae loan on my first deal, that was pretty cool. So, having that experience, so I think doing the first deal is always the hardest. And then doing the second one, it gets a little bit easier. A second one's like a bridge loan, right. And then every deal is so different. But I think it's about being consistent, doing transactions and doing quality deals, like all our deals, certain the values have gone up because we bought it at a right price. So, that was probably what I'm most proud of, and then you just continue to grow. I just don't think it's normal, like March 2019, I did buy 172 units, three transactions, I thought that was pretty good. But knowing that, it doesn't stop there. I want to continue growing and partnering with quality people like yourself or the guys I've partnered with is really important. So, that was probably what I've been most proud of.   James: So, where do you see yourself, five years and 10 years from now?   Ronny: So, a five-year goal, I do more like buy time and 30 goals. So, we'll just do that. So, top 30, I'm 26 now, I want to be top 50 and MHC owners. So, billion in assets under management by the time I am 30. As far as a 10 year goal, I want my multifamily business to always be the foundation, but I really want to grow into the private equity space and you know, raising a fund and buying deals, like I would love to raise like a billion dollar fund, an equity fund and provide joint venture equity to other sponsors and different things like that. But there's levels to everything and obviously doing new development construction. And then being able to give, I think that's really important like, especially for people either not wanting to go to college or transitioning out of it, what is that step, like? Maybe I can create some sort of internship program, and I am thinking like group and kingly acquisitions and help people get into multifamily especially when they're young, and then being able to give back, right. I think that's really important. Building an orphanage in India, like that's one of my goals. And, yeah, I think giving back is really important because we can make all this money and we can do all these things, and have all this units, but having a direct impact on your residents, on your partners, on just people in general is really important to me.   James: Got it. Awesome. All right. So, Ronny, why don't you tell our audience and listeners how to get in touch with you?   Ronny: Yeah. So, the best way to reach out to me, just any social media, you can just search Ronny Philip, on Instagram, on LinkedIn, connect with me on LinkedIn, that's probably the best way, and we’ll go from there. And if you all have any questions, don't hesitate to reach out to me. I'm a pretty open and transparent guy. And you can also find me on YouTube, Ronny Phil is my YouTube channel. So, I'll start doing a lot of different blogs day to day as a young apartment investor. So, those are the best ways to reach me. And I'm sure you have my contact info in the show notes.   James: Yeah, I mean, I'll really make sure we put that in. So, thanks for coming in. And, I'm sure you added tons of value for a lot of people who are trying to get started or have already started in this multifamily investing. Thank you.   Ronny: Thanks, so much for having me on the show. I appreciate it.   James: Absolutely.  

Humans are creatures of habit. Plain and simple - this is a fact. What I'll have you consider is that the underlying stories in your own mind are the things truly driving your habits and behavior. We are what we repeatedly do. We are also what we repeatedly think. Therefore, the thoughts you're having and the stories you're telling yourself are driving both the good and bad behaviors you exhibit. For more information on habit-setting & breaking, here is a great resource: https://jamesclear.com/habits Daily challenge: Identify one habit that you have in your life and list out the underlying stories that might be driving that behavior. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/runyourday/message

"What I'll just ask you to please do is just stop, stop doubting yourself, stop feeling bad about yourself." - David Weiss in today's Tip 429 Are you struggling with stress, anxiety or anything related to mental health? Join the conversation at DailySales.Tips/429 and be sure to connect with David! Have feedback? Want to share a sales tip? Call or text the Sales Success Hotline: 512-777-1442 or Email: scott@top1.fm  

Episode transcript:PAUL SANTIAGO: Thank you for being on the show. I really appreciate it, Renee.RENEE DALO: I'm so happy to be here. This is going to be great. PS: How long have we known each other? We've known each other--RD: For so long.PS: Yeah, but it's just from a distance all the time.RD: We're at the same networking events all the time.PS: Yeah, we just never get to chat, so this perfect for me.RD: Yeah, we never have a sit-down.PS: I've always wanted to talk to you, because you're always the most colorful person in the room.RD: Oh, you're so sweet.PS: And always catches my attention. RD: I love that, thank you.PS: So yeah, of course. And thank you for being here, really appreciate it. Before we start, I would love it if you tell the listeners and the viewers something about yourself that they would probably be surprised to know. RD: So I have been to every state in the contiguous US at least once, if not twice. Because when I was younger, I was a musical theater actor, and so I toured the country in a bunch of shows. So I've literally been everywhere except for Hawaii now. But I can't really tell you where anything is, because all I've ever seen is the inside of the tour van and the inside of the theater. So super well traveled, minimally.PS: Nice. But you've tried to hit the touristy spots of every--RD: Yeah. When we were in Memphis, we didn't have time to go to Graceland. I've driven by the sign that says "Grand Canyon" four times. This is just life on the road. You're always off to do another show and you're always off to do something else. So I always joke with my husband that eventually I'm going to make him get an RV and show me all the things I missed in my twenties. Even though I was right there, it's just we couldn't go.PS: We've always thought about renting an RV, but me and Stella, my wife, we're not really outdoorsy people.RD: Oh yeah, no, I'm not an RV person. I'm a Four Seasons person. I'm a room service, down comforter person for sure. Stella and I are the same, I think, in that, and you as well. But something about, I just feel like getting an RV and seeing the country is the way you do that particular thing.PS: Yeah, it's easier. And it's probably the most American thing you could ever do, going around the country, right?RD: Yeah, I agree, yeah.PS: And it always confuses me, because I always felt like the most American thing you could do is just hop on a plane and just fly and travel. But no, it's just getting into the nitty gritty, and do it like Walter White.RD: I don't think we're going to make any meth.PS: Okay, hopefully not.RD: That's next level, I'm not going to do that particular thing.PS: Okay, so I'm always curious about how people start out, and I really want to know what your origin story is. How you started, and what got you into this industry. And also, what you're up to right now.RD: Sure, so how did I go from being a musical theater actress to a wedding planner? So when you're an actor, especially in New York City, a lot of times you're working hospitality as a side job, and that was very true for me. I worked in a lot of fine dining restaurants in New York City. And then when I moved to LA, decided didn't really want to do musicals anymore, kind of didn't want to live out of a suitcase anymore. That life, really, it was great while it was, but then I was approaching 30 years old, and I thought, "I kind of want to lay down some roots somewhere." And I thought LA would be as good a place as any. So I got a job in hospitality. I opened a restaurant, which is one of the restaurants at The Grove, which is a big outdoor mall here. It was a big deal to open this place, they built it from scratch. And I was part of that opening crew. And in the time that I worked there, I went from hostess to waiter to bartender to banquet server, banquet captain, banquet manager. And so what ended up happening is that I was running the banquet rooms at this restaurant, they were six rooms, and I was one of the people that ran them. And I ended up doing a lot of weddings that way, because it wasn't a luxury venue by any stretch, but people would have weddings there, and they would always give them to me because, "Oh, Renee can do the weddings, she's good at that, she's good at the weddings." At the same time, that was in my season of life where all of my friends were getting married. So I planned a lot of weddings as a hobby right around that same time, because they were like, "Well, you're doing it at work, and you seem good at this. Can you help me?" So what ended up being-- I planned my best friend's wedding 12 years ago with $7000, like no money whatsoever, like nothing. What ended up happening is that people who were at that wedding, or people who knew my friend would say, "Oh." I would get random emails from people that were like, "Oh, can you help me plan my wedding? I was at this wedding," or, "I heard you do this." And so I created a business before I even realized what I was doing, because I was getting emails and referrals from people that I didn't know. I remember one time, I got an email from this girl who said, "Jeanette sent me to you." And I was like, "Who the hell's Jeanette? I don't know this person." So I realized that I liked it, and I was good at it, and people were coming to me for it, and so I probably should do it. And then it was a few years after that that I really started my business now, which is Moxie Bright Events. So it took me a few years to get really clear that it's a business that you could run and make a living. But I've been doing it for so long at that point, that it seemed silly that I wasn't doing it professionally. But that's what I did. After I got married, my own wedding planner, because I got married in Philadelphia, said to me, "I don't understand why you're not a wedding planner in Los Angeles." And I was like, "Well, there's so many." And she was like, "So who cares?" And it was that weird-- sometimes you just need that one person to say the one right thing to you. And it's so simple, but having Erin say to me, "Who cares? Just go do it. It doesn't matter if other people are doing it too." I was like, "Oh, you're right." So yeah, it sounds silly, but it kind of just happened.PS: Yeah, all you need is that one person to push you. And fortunately for us, it's someone close to us, so it's easier to be like, "Oh, okay, I'll give it a shot." Because they know you already.RD: Yeah. She said, "You needed me less than any client I've ever had. I don't know why you don't do this professionally." And I was like, "Oh, I don't know." But again, this brings me back to what we're talking about today, is I had a lot of limiting beliefs about myself and about this work, and I had to work through those in order to be able to do this at the level that I'm doing it now.PS: It's funny, because when you said your friend got married for $7000, which is pretty much nothing.RD: Nothing.PS: Stella and I got married, our budget was $6000.RD: I love that. Well, how long ago was it though?PS: I have to answer this correctly. It was 10 years ago.RD: Yeah, see? My friend was 12 years ago. So back then, you could make something of that a little bit, a little bit more than you can today.PS: Well, it was bare bones. We got married in a church, and our reception was at an Indian restaurant, an Indian buffet, which is $10 per person or something like that.RD: Oh yeah. This wedding that I did for $7000 was in a photography studio. The power went out, because I didn't know enough to check the power. So when we plugged in all the lights and the DJ plugged in, all the power went out. And the DJ came up to me during the ceremony and whispered in my ear, "Do you want to have lights, or do you want to have music?" And I was like, "What are you talking about?" And he's like, "We have a power outage." And I just started crying, because I was like, "I don't know." Now, I would check the power. But it was so bare bones, minimal, minimal everything. We had a craft services caterer do dinner, it was crafty. It's so funny.PS: Those things make you really, really stronger when it comes to accepting challenges as soon as you start out. How do you feel about that? When you start out your business, should you take more risks when you start up? Or should you take more risks when you're a little bit more confident?RD: I think we should always be taking risks. I think if you own a business, I believe that inherently, you are a risk taker. I just think entrepreneurs have to have that little bit of-- we have a little bit of crazy up in our brains where we think, "I'm going to try this." And I think that if you are someone who really loves safety, maybe owning a business is not for you, because there's not a lot of safety happening all the time. I think at the beginning, you've got to throw yourself into the fire. Honestly, at this point, I tell my clients or potential clients, there's nothing that rattles me. Your venue, God forbid, could burn down around us and I'm still not going to yell. Nothing gets to me, I've seen it. But the only reason I can say that is because I had a wedding where the power went out my very first wedding. So once you've lived through it and nothing bad happens, you figure it out, nothing can rattle you. But at the beginning, I think, just starting is a risk, right? So calculated risks, of course. Smart risks, hopefully. But you've got to take risks, there's no way around it, I think.PS: Yeah, because once you take risks, I guess your senses are sharper, you're more aware of what's happening around you. For us, when we started out, we had our first fist fight in a wedding on our third wedding, and it was the groom and his groomsman in the bathroom. RD: Of course it was.PS: Yeah. So after 10 years of doing this, after nine years of doing this, I'd be like, I know exactly what to do and how to handle a fist fight, or prevent someone from-- yeah.RD: Oh man. Courage is a muscle. Everyone thinks courage is some value that, oh, this person is courageous, they're brave. That's just a muscle. If you never exercise it, it's going to atrophy just like anything else. So jumping into that fist fight, or knowing enough to not jump into that fist fight, that's the things you learn on the job. There's no other way to learn this job, I think. PS: And I feel like for people who are starting out, well, at least for me, when I was starting out, I didn't really have anyone to ask, or have anyone to mentor me about these things, what to expect. So I feel like when you're starting out also, make sure that you approach the people who have been longer in the industry, just so they could give you tips. Because I feel like people want to see other people succeed, at least the good business owners, right?RD: Oh yeah. And I think too, the climate is so different now. When I was starting, yes, I did have support, I did have a mentor, I had some really good friends. But there wasn't all the podcasts and the blogs and the education, the online education. There's so many other ways to get knowledge nowadays. Yeah, find a mentor, and then really listen to them. Intern with someone and follow them around, soak it up, don't just take it for granted. Because sometimes the best business people aren't necessarily the best educators, but they still have a lot to share. But you just have to be the person that's super aware of them and what they're doing and how they are presenting themselves in the world.PS: I love that, I love that, because that's actually my main problem right now. I know a lot about business, but I guess I don't know how to say it or how to ask people online. If I'm in a Facebook group, I ask them about something, and they react differently, and then I reread it, I'm like, "Oh crap, I said it wrong," or something like that. Now my question is since we're already talking about this, and you've been saying that you tell your clients, "Nothing can faze me, the building would be burning down." So the way you say stuff, I feel like it's really important, right? So our topic for today is the power of language in your business. So why does the language really matter in our business? RD: I think it's two things. So one, obviously we're using language all day long. I used to call this the power of words in your business, because I think words gets it down to the base level, right? Because we're communicating all day long, we're communicating when we talk to each other, but especially via email, and especially on our websites, there's words everywhere, right? So we have to choose them carefully. And what I know about modern life, because I know, and I do it myself, is that I try to be super casual and approachable and friendly. But oftentimes, what that means, especially for women listening, it means that we sometimes use a lot of unintentional subconscious limiting language, right? And what I mean by that is if you're ever talking to someone, just about anything in life, and you say something that's kind of a bummer, or you say something not great, and they go, "Oh my God, I'm so sorry." And it's a weird phrase, right? That we use. We use "I'm sorry" a lot for things that we have no control over, nothing to do with, no jurisdiction over. We just say "oh, I'm sorry" as a way to express empathy, right? But it's a weird phrase, because you're taking responsibility for something that isn't yours. And it's just one of the many ways. If you ever answer a client email, how many times, just off the top of your head, have you answered a client email with, "Oh, so sorry, sorry for getting back to you so late."PS: We don't say sorry, we say "apology". We apologize. RD: Yeah, which is great. When I first started talking about this, I went through my Gmail, my business account is a Gmail for business account. In there, you can search your mail, and I searched the word "sorry" just to see what would come up. And it was hundreds of emails, hundreds of times I had said. And in most of the time, it was like, "Sorry for not getting back to you within an hour." I was apologizing for something that was ridiculous. "So sorry it took me a minute to research this." What? No, that's my job. So the language we use matters, because we are subconsciously giving our clients and other vendors and everyone we talk to, we're letting them see who we are through the words we use. And if we're starting with "sorry, I'm so sorry", it already puts you in a position subconsciously, their trust is eroding in you, right? They're thinking, "Oh, this person, they didn't get back to me? Oh, they think they were late getting back to me?" It's these little things, it's super micro, but it's the reason I always want to talk about it, because I think so many of these little tiny things that we do, when you add them up, end up really coloring how someone else looks at you, how they view you. And if we can make these tiny changes, then over time, it's going to have the most impact, because it'll start just becoming the way you talk. Like you said, we don't use "sorry", we say "apologies". That is a different thing, those two words mean very different things when you're taking them in as the person who they're being said to.PS: So it's so funny, because I use "I'm sorry" a lot when I email, right? And I know this person who's a grammar Nazi. Stella, my wife. RD: I'm a grammar Nazi, too. PS: So she's like, "Never say you're sorry. Always say apologize, apologies." My goal is, since English is our second language, I want people to know that we know how to speak proper English. No offense to the Californians, but California English, there's California English. Water is "waa-d'r" here. So there's a thing. And it took me three years to adapt to the California English, because I wanted to make sure that, at least in my head, it's a little bit more flawless, and eliminate my accent just so I could blend in a little bit more. But just heading towards the proper English, which is British English, I don't know, without the accent, just the correct pronunciation.RD: Right. I'm from New York City, so my actual accent is ridiculous, you would laugh. The accent I was born with is crazy. And I do the same thing, I work very hard on not sounding like I'm from any particular place.PS: So I think me too, my Filipino accent is wow, once you hear it, you're like, "Oh, wow." So that's the thing. I feel like heading towards the proper English would benefit your business as well, you as a person. Because now, more than ever, social media has evolved into this thing where people spend a little bit of their time with, now it's just everywhere. People, when they're not doing anything, once they're on their phone, you know they're on social media.RD: Oh, for sure.PS: And the way they talk reflects their personality now. RD: Have you ever gotten an email from a vendor or from a client where they're using text talk? Where it's like, "C-Y-A," and you're like, "C-Y-A? Cya. See ya. Okay, got it." Honestly, me, Renee, when I get language like that, I always think, oh, this person must not be very smart. That is just where I go to. And so consider, if you're listening, and you're someone who emails in text speak, maybe that's how you're being perceived, right? We all have these predispositions to how we think of someone when we hear them talk or when we read what they write. So I love that you said you're really trying to go with the correct English, because you want people to take you seriously. You want people to know that you're smart and you're capable, and so therefore that translates to you in proper English. For me, what I want to communicate with my emails and my language in general is that I'm capable and that I'm in charge, right? Because I'm a wedding planner. So for me, my emails can't be too soft, because otherwise I don't think I'm sending the right message. One of my clients left me a review last week. Can I cuss?PS: Sure, yeah.RD: She said in the review, "Renee is a badass." And I honestly walked around all proud all day that I was like, "I'm a badass." Because as a wedding planner, I am the captain of the ship, right? So my emails have to come from a place of authority. So if I'm sending emails that are like, "I just wanted you to read this timeline. I don't know, I think that they think that maybe we should do it this way, but I don't know, what do you think?" And just like, "Let me know when you get it," and then like, "Just no big deal, whenever you have a sec." If I sent emails in that tone, no one would ever respect me or take me seriously or listen to me. So my emails, my communication, has to be pretty clear and direct, and dare I say, almost masculine. And I don't use a lot of phrases like "I think". At least I try not to. I know I say that more when I'm speaking, I say, "Oh, I think da da da." But I hardly ever say "actually, I think", because that also makes it sound like I'm surprised by my own thoughts. "Oh, I had a thought, actually. Get ready, I had a thought, guys." I try not to say the phrase "does that make sense?" Because what I have found with "does that make sense" is, especially when it's a client email, right? So a client will email me 12 questions in a row, right? Which is pretty typical for me. And I'll answer every single question. And if at the end, I say "does that make sense", and I read this in a book and it stuck with me, so "does that make sense", it's saying two things. It's saying to the person you're communicating to, "Are you smart enough to understand what I've just said?" Which is insulting, right? Or, "Am I so crazy nuts that I can't communicate properly what I'm trying to get across to you?" So I have now really tried to get rid of "does that make sense". Instead, what I say is, "Look forward your thoughts on this." Or simply, "Thoughts?" Question mark. What are your thoughts on the things I just explained? Right? Because we have to be really clear on what we want people to take away from the interactions that they're having with us, right? I know that I in the past had tended to overexplain something, feel weird about it, and then say, "Oh, that was too much of an explanation, I know, but hopefully it made sense." Well, if you don't think you're making sense, rewrite the email. Just rewrite the email. We don't need all of the fancy rigmarole. But I do think with social media, like you said, I think we're moving toward a place with our language, just as a culture, where we're super getting super casual. PS: Super casual.RD: And I don't know that I hate it, I definitely don't hate it. But I also wonder, I don't know, on some people's Instagrams, like Jenna Kutcher for example. Do you follow Jenna?PS: Yes.RD: Jenna writes these really beautiful captions to her Instagram pictures. And they're frequently paragraphs, right? And they're like a little mini blog post, and she's always really expressive. And I think that is her authentic voice, I don't think someone else is writing that for her. I think that's how she feels, what she wants to communicate that day. But I also can sense that some other accounts who follow, and the reason I mention her is because she's a huge account. Some other accounts that I also follow who are smaller, who are looking to others maybe for guidance, are using that same sort of authentic speak as, quote, unquote, air quotes "authentic speak", and I wonder if it is authentic to them. Because I think we all have our own voice. I know when I write something that sounds like me, it gets better responses from people, people can hear it in my voice. I think if we're all moving toward this casual social media authentic-y speak, that it's all going to sound like the same voice.PS: So before we move forward, let me go back to when you said "does that make sense", that phrase. Is there a deeper impact when you email it, as opposed to saying it to someone's face? Or is it--? Okay.RD: Yeah, I think so. I think the words that we write have a lot more weight than we give it credit for. Because 99% of the time, my communication with my clients is email. And that's the way I run my business. So I'm not dying to jump on the phone with people. Which is funny, because I'm a podcaster, and you would think that I love talking. And I do, but something about getting my workday interrupted with a phone call is really off-putting to me, I just want to get my work done. So more often than not, I'm emailing. I feel like if you say it in person, if you say "does that make sense" in person, that you're possibly reacting off a visual cue, right? If someone's looking at you like I'm looking at you now, obviously it doesn't make sense. They're telling you with their face, "I am confused." So it's easy to say, "Does that make sense? What part should I go back over?" But if your emailing "does that make sense", you have no visual cue. What you're hoping is they've read the email and you haven't confused them, but you don't need to say it in that way. "Does that make sense" is a really triggering thing for me. When I read that a while ago, I was like, "Oh my God, I do that." The other one is the word "just". "I'm just a wedding planner." How many times have you heard someone say that, when you say, "What do you do?" "Oh, I'm just a DJ. I'm just a..."PS: Yeah.RD: It's so damaging.PS: It is. It's very like you're not really proud of what you're doing. Some people, when they say that, they actually mean it. So that's okay, right? Whenever he says, "I'm just a doctor." No?RD: Can you imagine? "I'm just a doctor?" Have you ever? I believe this is a systematic problem with the wedding industry, because I know for a fact within the world of events, weddings are sort of looked down upon as not as serious, not as lucrative, not as whatever. Which I think is a bunch of BS. but I know that in the wedding indistry, because I talk to so many other vendors, I think we all suffer from a little bit of impostor syndrome. And I think that's where that comes out, right? When you're talking to someone, and they say, "Oh, I'm just a blah blah blah," I'm always the idiot in the group who is like, "You are not just anything. You are amazing."PS: Oh, good for you.RD: I've been calling it out, right? To be like, "How dare you say that about yourself?" But I think when we feel self-conscious, when we feel not enough, when we have the impostor syndrome, it comes out in these little ways. PS: So here's my struggle going back to "does that make sense". Because the first time I heard that, I'm like, "Is this person mocking me? Do they think that I'm an idiot?"RD: Exactly.PS: And then I realize that everyone is using it, because I'm trying to mold my California English. And I've been using it for quite a while. And so I was actually talking to one of my guys, we were at a shoot, and I was trying to explain it to him, what we're going to do. Instead of me saying, "Does that make sense?" I asked him, "Okay, do you understand what I said?" Is there a difference? Because with "do you understand what I said", I actually wanted to make sure that he understands, because we're parting ways, and he's going to reception, I'm going to the-- is there a difference?RD: I would probably, in the future, say, "Do you have any questions for me?" Because it's more open-ended and it gives them more agency to participate, right? Because "does that make sense" is yes or no. "Do you understand what I said" is yes or no.PS: And then he never understood.RD: He didn't. See? "Do you have any questions?"PS: Okay.RD: And oftentimes, especially when I'm dealing with my assistants and stuff, if it is something that is different, unusual, anything out of the normal, I will say, "Repeat it back to me." Because I'd rather have them take ownership of it, even if it's wrong, right? Even if what they're repeating back to me isn't right. And then I can go, "No, that part's not right," and sort of help them and educate them in that moment. Because I think we can be asking better questions, I know we can all be asking better questions of people. But I think "does that make sense" needs to be fully retired, just get it right out of there.PS: Yeah, there's a lot of words, phrases that shouldn't be used, coming from me observing.RD: What else do you think? What else shouldn't be used?PS: Man, right off the top of my head. I'll think of something. But there's a bunch of words that irritate me when someone says it, then I'm like, "You're not using it right." Because we came here 2008, so I was 28 years old when we came here.RD: Oh, I did not know that.PS: Yeah, so that's why I spent three years talking to people on Yelp, the telemarketers, I would just talk to them on the phone. Stella said, "What are you doing?" I'm like, "I'm trying to practice my English."RD: Oh, I love that.PS: So I was just trying to convince them that I'm from here. So, okay.RD: That makes me so happy, I love that. PS: So now here's another struggle of mine. My authentic language, the way I talk to people, is different from my business language. Because we came from Filipino to English to California English, and now California English, we kind of need to dial it down a little bit more, because we're trying to cater to, I guess the higher end market, who doesn't talk like that. So my question is what's the difference between using authentic language, as opposed to speaking or writing off the cuff?RD: I love this. So oftentimes on social media, I will see fellow wedding vendors who I know wrote a caption off the top of their head. And the reason I always know it is because they frequently assume that the reader understands where they're coming from, understands the wavelength that they're already on. So sometimes the off-the-cuff ones sort of tend to start in the middle of a thought, or I'll read it and go, what are they talking about? I remember, this is a a while ago, someone posted a photo, it was a candid photo of a fire pit, right? But the caption said, "This place would be great for a rehearsal dinner." But it was a fire pit. And I stared at it for a few minutes and I was like, what is happening? It was geotagged with a location, so in theory the person posting wanted to communicate that this location would be great for a rehearsal dinner because of this cozy fire pit. But what we needed as the reader was the whole thought. We needed you to start us at A and end at Z. "One of the things my clients always ask me for is a cozy spot for their rehearsal dinner where people can really gather around and talk. And this restaurant, with this cozy fire pit, has that for you," right? So that's the way, you have to sort of connect all the dots for people. When we write something off the cuff, especially Instagram captions, I think sometimes people think, "Oh, when I see this image, it makes me think of the following thing that I'm going to put in this off-the-cuff caption." And then you read it and you're like, "I have no idea what they're talking about." Because we're not in your brain. You have to draw the full picture for people, you have to connect all of it together. But you still have to do it in your authentic voice in a way that doesn't seem so business-y. Because I'm sure you follow those more business-minded accounts that are like very stilted language and everything sounds like business, and you're like, "Well, that's no fun," right? So on social media, what the people want to see is the person behind the brand, so they want to hear from you and Stella. They don't want the voice of "Boffo Video does good video." So it's a really specific new skill set that we all have to have because it's part of our businesses now.PS: I've tried so hard to stop saying "I can't". Those things, it's so hard, because you see it on social media. And I have to be honest, if I were to just speak my authentic language, I probably wouldn't even post anything, because I'm too lazy. But I have to. So whenever I'm on social media, the first five posts I scroll through, I absorb the way they speak, and that's what I just type.RD: One of the things I think we can all be doing for our businesses is really drill down how your business sounds, right? How your business, what your business cares about. So for Moxie Bright, which is my wedding planning business, we really care about hospitality, we really care about taking care of guests, we really care about those moments at a wedding that you can't even predict that are going to happen, that are going to be awesome. So a lot of times when I post something on my Instagram, I'm calling out those moments, right? I'm calling out that moment of amazing service or I'm calling out this moment of friendship between the bride and her bridal tribe. I am specifically angling because it's coming from my head, my viewpoint, what's important to me, right? So I'm always putting it through that lens. I feel like if someone else were to look at the same images on my Instagram, they'd probably come up with a million different captions, because of what's happening in their brain, what's important to them, and what goes through their lens. When I'm doing posts for my education brand, for my online courses and stuff, that's a completely different language, because I'm talking to different people, I'm talking to other wedding planners, I'm talking to them about making more money, about being better at their jobs. It's a completely different audience, and it has to be a completely different language. Now for me, right now those are on the same account, right? So you can literally look through my Instagram and think, "Oh, here she's talking to clients, here she's talking to other wedding pros." But for instance, I call my students rockstars. So if you're a student in one of my classes, I'm going to address you as, "Hey, rockstar," no matter what. I don't know how it started, it felt right and I went with it, and now it's a thing. And I think to that, you have to honor that too, what feels right? I'm definitely not someone who's hashtag blessed, right? You're not going to see that on my account, it's just not my thing. You're more likely to see an F-bomb on my account with a (makes explosion sound) emoji.PS: Yeah, that's the thing. I guess it's just so hard to come up with an original idea, I mean an original text, in such a short span of time. Because I feel like people who post on social media, at least the ones who are really good at it, schedule everything.RD: Oh yeah.PS: And I suck at it, because you know what I'm really good at scheduling? Podcasts. Everything else, I suck at.RD: See? There you go. Scheduling is much easier, because then you're not having to come up with a caption on the fly. I use Planoly, and I schedule at least two weeks out if I can. I took a social media break this year, I didn't post at all for the month of June. I just wasn't feeling it. And I was like, "I'm not going to force myself. The world's not going to end if I don't put up a square every day." And I didn't do it. And then I got back to it when it was time. And then I was able to be like, "Okay, let's write some fresh captions." For me, I don't stress so much about the caption. It could be because my background, I have a background as a writer as well. But I look at the picture and I go, "What is this? Oh, okay." Sometimes it's so simple. I think my post today was a wedding bouquet from two years ago, and I think I wrote, "Never tired of this gorgeous bouquet from Shindig Chic." That's it, because it doesn't always have to change the world. Sometimes it's just appreciation for this beautiful thing. And that's okay, too. You don't have to write the mini blog posts that Jenna Kutcher is writing. By the way, Jenna Kutcher is writing those from a sales language perspective. She's writing those to convert. She's selling things. Even if you don't think she's selling anything on that post, girl's still selling something, because she's got an entire empire full of things to sell. So if what you're doing as a service provider is wanting to get people to contact you, right? Wanting someone to like you enough to reach out. Then all you really have to worry about is talking to the right people, being your true self, and hopefully the right people will be attracted to you. Because you're not trying to sell a course or preset filter. She's got a ton of products.PS: Oh yeah. And she's really good at posting something and asking, "How's your day going?" And I'm like, "Oh my gosh, she's talking to me."RD: And at the end, you're like, "I think I need her podcast course." And you don't know what happened. You don't know how it happened. She's very persuasive.PS: She's really good at that.RD: That's a whole other language. We don't need that. If that's not your goal, that's not what you need. You just need to be putting things out there that are authentically you. I post a lot of photos of food on my Moxie Bright account, because I love food, my clients love food. And I've had people say to me, "You post a lot of food." I'm like, "Uh huh, okay, thanks for noticing." What, am I not supposed to post the things I like? I'm going to post what I like.PS: Yeah, it speaks to your followers, it speaks to your tribe.RD: Yeah, but I also like it. If my followers decided suddenly they liked, I don't know, what's something I don't like? Country music. I don't really love country music. But if they were super into it, I still wouldn't be posting it. Because I'm just like, "Not my thing," right? I can't talk about something I don't know anything about. I feel bad now that I said I don't like country music. I like some country music, you guys.PS: To be honest, when I started editing wedding videos here, and some of the clients, it was like, "Oh, we want Brad Paisley." Before the whole copyright thing, I fell in love with country music.RD: Did you?PS: Yes, but I'm not deep into it. I'm kind of like you. I appreciate country music.RD: I like all the girl singers. So if there's a girl singer, like Martina McBride, I'm into her, love her. Faith Hill, love her. Any girl who can sing, I'm in. But no, the guys, I don't know anything about.PS: Okay. I'm the reverse. Well, you know what? I know Shania Twain. Because I'm Filipino, so we sing a lot. So now my question for you now is, since we were talking about "I can't" or "slay, girl" or whatever. Because for me, on Instagram, it's me who's talking. Stella, she sucks at social media, she doesn't want to do that, because she hates being on social media, so I do all of the captions and stuff. So when there's, "Oh, wow" or something like that that's weird, it's never going to be her, it's just always me.RD: I love it.PS: My question is how can we stop using limiting language in our business and life? How do I get to stop?RD: Well, I think first, you have to have the awareness that you're even doing it. So a lot of times after I talk about this topic, I've presented this at conferences and stuff, I'll get emails months later from someone who's like, "I was at your talk, and I went through my email, and oh my God, I've been saying 'sorry' and 'just', and I've been doing it all." And I'm like, "Yeah girl, you got to figure it out." You have to first understand that it's happening, right? There are some, especially when you're writing, there are some tools. So if you use Google Chrome, which you should all be using, because I love it, there is a plugin. The name of the plugin is called Just Not Sorry, which is great. And it literally will underline for you in your emails if you're using any word that is a limiting language word. But the other thing that's fun too is that sometimes you actually are apologizing for something, and sometimes you're like, "Oh, so sorry, this email got missed" or whatever, it'll still underline it. It doesn't necessarily understand the context. But it will tell you, "Hey, are you sure you want to use the word 'just' here?" "Just" is a big one. "Just" is the one that people go, "I don't use that," and then weeks later they say, "Oh my God, yes I do, it's everywhere." Of course it's everywhere. Because it's our culture, right? It's in our vernacular to use these words that make us sound soft and approachable and agreeable and easygoing like everyone wants to be, especially in California, super chill all the time. And I get it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it has a place in your business. Because you have to understand, you have to determine and figure out for yourself how you want to be perceived, right? Because a lot of times, I'll talk to, especially groups of women, and I hate to keep saying that, but as a woman, it's a big deal for me. And they'll say, "Well, I don't really have control over how I'm perceived." Absolutely false. You 100% have control over how you're perceived. You can script that for yourself. You can make that happen for yourself. But first you have to have the awareness of it. So one, awareness. Two, tools like Google Chrome plugin. Three, start noticing it in other people, too. And it might make you less liked for a minute to be like, "You just said," call out your friend, be like, "I thought we weren't doing that anymore." Because it's pervasive, it's everywhere, and so it isn't just a quick fix, it is an ongoing thing. The other thing that I did for my assistant and for anyone who's in my inbox is I have a little, small document of "these are words we don't use". This is language Moxie Bright does not use, right? And even in my interactions with my clients on their wedding day, in my employee handbook, there is a list of things we don't say. So if someone were to come up to one of my assistants, a guest on the day of the wedding, and ask them a question, and if they don't know the answer, they're not allowed to say, "I don't know." What they're supposed to say is, "Let me find out." And that's the biggest example I can always give. It's taking that negative "I don't know" and turning it into something open and curious and positive, which was, "Let me find out. I'll go find out for you," right? So that person is then taking ownership of whatever the situation is. They are coming to someone else who might know more, finding out the answer. Saying "I don't know" is closing a door. That's like what you said, we don't want to say "I can't", right? I can't. Well, maybe you can't right now because you don't have the right information, right? So what do you say instead of "I can't"? Are you retraining yourself to think a new thing?PS: Well, the "I can't" that I'm talking about is the RuPaul Drag Race "I can't".RD: Oh.PS: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. But if we're talking about the "I can't" that you're talking about, I usually say, "I'll see what I can do."RD: Yeah, I'll see what I can do, exactly. Perfect, it's perfect.PS: "I can't." RD: I need to watch RuPaul's, I haven't watched RuPaul's Drag Race yet. But it's come up a lot lately, and so I feel like the universe is telling me to watch it.PS: Oh, they have a really, really extensive vocabulary of all the really fun phrases that people use.RD: Someone referenced a death drop to me the other day, and I was like, "I don't know what a death drop is." And then I Googled it, it was like, "Oh, that looks painful."PS: Yeah. I've seen comments that say "typing from heaven because I'm dead right now" or something like that, because the thing is so beautiful. So now I really want to ask you about this, because that kind of language attracts a certain kind of tribe, a certain kind of group, right?RD: Totally.PS: If I want to charge more and target the more luxurious market, should I continue saying that? If I were someone who does that.RD: I think if it's authentic, you should.PS: Okay.RD: I think in our industry, we have a really effed up thing about luxury, I believe. Every luxury client I've ever had has not come to me from social media. They have come from 100% personal referral from someone who's a friend of theirs. There's a little tight-knit Beverly Hills group that I work with all the time. Some clients, I've done all of their events, and then they refer me to their best friends, and that's how it works. Those people never read my reviews. They don't care. They want a personal referral, and they want you to show up and be professional. I think this marketing to luxury market doesn't really work. I hate to burst everyone's bubble, but I think be your authentic self. Listen, if you are-- let's just say I start watching RuPaul's Drag Race, and I feel compelled to post about it, I'm probably going to use that language because it's fun, right? It doesn't mean that that's who I am as a human every day of the year, and I have to say "slay" on all my posts, right? But I think it's fun to let people in to see who you are a little more. I'm a huge fan of the Canadian sitcom Schitt's Creek, which everyone, have to watch it immediately if you have not watched it. So lately, all of my Insta stories have had GIFs of the character David Rose making faces, and I've never explained it, I've never said, "I'm a huge fan, and so this speaks to me now." I'm just doing it. And I've got people message me on Instagram, "Oh my God, you watch that show, too?" I'm like, "Yeah, of course I do." But it's a way to let people in authentically without having to have a big deal about it. I'm sure the moment will pass in a few months, I'll be moved on to some other show, it's fine. But it's like you have to be able to play. And if you want to use "slay" one day, then you slay. But as far as a luxury market, I don't think they're looking for anything specific. I think they're looking for people who are really good at their job, who their friends have already worked with.PS: Okay. I was thinking about that.RD: I don't know how to tell you to break in. Everyone's like, "How did you get that first Beverly Hills client?" I'm like, "Through her yoga teacher." Through her private fancy yoga teacher. So you just don't know.PS: So let me know what you think, too. Because I feel like as long as you're authentic, social media caters to, especially if you want to target higher paying clients, right? Social media caters to the people around you. And if the vendors who know these luxury market clients like your personality, then it's an easier sell, right?RD: Absolutely.PS: Instead of targeting the luxury people.RD: Yeah. Think of it this way. It's like dating, right? If you want to impress someone, you put your best foot forward. So this is a different example, but I'll use it anyway. My friend who is the private yoga teacher, she works with very high-end clients. Russell Crowe used to be a client of hers. She used to go to his home and teach him yoga. And one day he was looking for a masseuse. And she texted me and said, "Who do we know who'd be good for Russell to get a massage?" Right? Because it has to be the right person. At that level, when you're talking about that person, that level of celebrity, that level of luxury, it can't just be the person we saw on Instagram who we think might be cool. It has to be the right person. When we went through a list of people that we knew, and she was like, "No, that girl drives a-- no, that girl's bad, she'll talk too much," or, "Oh no, that guy has a weird energy," right? There's nothing you can do at that point. You just have to be who you are, and you'll be right for someone. And it's the same with your language. You just have to talk the way you talk authentically in full complete thoughts ideally on social, and the right people will be attracted to you. And you know what? The other cool thing is you'll repel the wrong people. I think we spend a lot of time worrying about who we're attracting, but sometimes I'm like, "Who am I unattracting? Who am I sending away?" Good for that too, right? Because just in using not only limiting language, but inclusive language, right? If you're only posting the same kind of couple all the time, right? Perhaps you're sending a message that you're not open to working with everyone. Same thing with your language. If you're only ever talking about brides and grooms, brides and grooms, brides and grooms, you're leaving out a whole other section of people who are getting married.PS: So it's pretty much just curating. When it comes to business, you just make sure you curate. Be yourself, but you curate.RD: Yeah. Curate inasmuch as you feel comfortable curating. I'm certainly not someone who wants, you see those Instagram accounts of "everything's pink and white". And you're like, "How are you doing that? That's so much effort." I'm not about that life, I don't have that kind of time. But definitely curating your words is so important to me, because I know that none of us are spending enough time thinking about it. We're all just going off the cuff and saying what we think, and saying what we feel, and writing what we feel. And in the end, we're ending up too much in our feelings, and too much in our apologies, and too much in our self-doubt, and not enough standing in our power with our words, and really, intentionally communicating clearly and effectively and efficiently and with authority, what we mean.PS: Okay. I like that, because I feel like social media has changed the way. Before, when we started out, the "about us" page is the only page that tells about you. Now, social media. In the "about us" page, you're like, "I like riding horses and eating hamburgers." Now everything is out there.RD: It's true.PS: People are addicted that they can't stop just shooting out information about themselves, that I feel like when it comes to curating, when we talk about curating, at least for me, I feel like curating is cleaning up. You invite someone to go to your house, and the first thing, once they open the door and see your living room, you're like, "Shit, there's so much stuff on the floor and I need to clean up." So curating is kind of like that. Just make sure that when people Google you, they see a really nice-looking-- doesn't have to be perfect, but just clean. RD: Yeah. I love that you said, too, about the curating. I feel like when we say the word "curating", people are automatically like, "Ew, I don't want to." But what I hear in what you're saying, obviously correct me if this is incorrect, is that you feel like there is a fine line between sharing who you authentically are and who you want to work with, and the kind of work you want to put out there. And then there's people who really overshare, right? And they're telling you, or the people who go on Insta story and Insta story their entire day every day, they're living in some weird reality show that they've made for themselves, where this is their breakfast, and then they're walking the dog, and then they're answering emails, and then they're getting a haircut. And it's like whoa, hold on. What I like to think of for these things, because I'm certainly not someone who wants to Insta story my entire life. I was an actor, I got that amount of attention back in the day, I'm good. I always think if I want to share something that seems kind of tricky or seems kind of maybe challenging, or I don't know. I just always think, is this thing that I'm sharing, is it something that is a wound, an open wound, or is it a scar? Have I learned something from it, right? If it's like a client cancelled their wedding, and we're in the thick of cancelling it, and emotions are high, I'm certainly not going to go on Insta story and be like, "Here's how to cancel your wedding." No, there is a time and a place, right? You have to talk about that once the moment has passed, when it is a scar. The people who overshare, the people who do that thing where you're like, "That is aggressively TMI, I don't need to know all that," I think they're operating from a different place where they're not. And that's what I think we mean by curating. Come at it from a place of what is it that I want to share and teach and educate, or just simply communicate about, and not from a place of, "This just happened, and I'm gonna sound off on it," right? PS: Yeah. So I was talking to a social media expert, I was talking to someone, and we were talking about-- because when I post something on social media, especially the stories, because I always believe that Instagram feed has to be clean, that's about your company. And your stories is where you get dirty. And by dirty, I don't mean sending--RD: Yeah, you can play a little fast and loose with the stories.PS: Yeah, but then when I post something on stories, I just go about my day, right? I take photos of a tree or, "Oh, I'm going to this restaurant." But I never post until the next day. Because I want it to be purposeful. "Oh my gosh, that experience at the restaurant is the highlight of my day," and that's the only thing I'm going to post. So I feel like people need to learn to step back, because the pressure of posting something right now is just tremendous that it's not really healthy anymore.RD: I agree.PS: And I feel like I should have one episode, podcast episode about mental health, because it's just so draining. Especially for me, because I'm not really a very public kind of guy. If I had a choice, I'd probably not post anything. But the pressure of trying to put something out there, yeah.RD: Yeah, I agree with you. Posting while you're in the moment of something takes you out of the moment. You're no longer in the moment, you're now looking at it from a distance, going, "How are people going to react? Oh, what should I say about this moment?" Just be in the moment, man, just post later. I tend not to post when I'm at networking events like the ones you and I have gone to for so many years together, because I don't want people know where I am. There is a weird part of me that is like, "If someone were to follow me around, they could, if I were posting in real time." And I know that sounds very paranoid, but that's just how we are, that's how I am today.PS: I actually saw and read an article, oh, I think it was online, a forum, and I started implementing it. When we go on vacation, I wait two days before I post something. Because we're on our way back, and we just started our vacation online, just so no one's going to know that oh, their house is empty, no one's in the house, stuff like that. It's me being paranoid.RD: But then again, these are all things we have to think about when we're talking about our businesses and our social media. It's such a different world now than when we started.PS: Yeah. So now my question for you is, if I want to change my copy, my language, how do I go about that for my business?RD: So first, I think you have to drill down what your core values are as a business. Mine are online, you can look at my core values on Moxie Bright, on the website, on the "about me" page. But I think once you have those core values, even if you don't publish them, even if you just write them down for yourself, right? Then make sure that all your language points to that. For me, I always want my language to be really uplifting, outgoing. I don't like passive voice. So if you don't know that means, not you, but if your listeners don't know what that means, active voice is like, "I am eating a sandwich." Passive voice is "I am going to eat a sandwich", right? I always want to be in the active voice. I want all my copy, all my Instagram captions, even if I'm talking about something that happened in the past, I still want my reaction to it, my comment on the image, to be in active voice, because it's important to me. It's one of the things, one of my pet peeves. Even when I listen to podcasts, when people say, "We're going to talk about blah blah blah." Just talk about it. You're already here, we're in it, just do it, right? That's just my impatient New Yorker, I think, coming out. But so that's something that's important to me. It's important to me to not use limiting language. It's important to me to communicate in a voice that allows people to easily feel comfortable with me being in charge. Because again, that speaks to what I'm doing for a living. If I were someone in a more creative primarily field, maybe if I were an interior designer, or maybe if I were a photographer, maybe my language would be a little more creative, a little more flowery, because you want to communicate that I have that sort of creative spirit. I'm not so concerned with that for what I'm doing currently. I more just want to be seen as an authority. Because it helps my clients trust me, and then it automatically takes out so many problems in the long run, because they're like, "Oh, Renee's got this," right? Because all of my language and my demeanor speaks to that. So that's what important to me. It doesn't have to be important to other people. But that's one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about this topic, is that I find it so prevalent in our industry. I've been at so many networking events standing next to someone, and someone says, "What do you do?" And they go, "I'm just a wedding planner." And it makes all my skin crawl right off, right? I'm like, "You're not just anything. You're a business person, you're a CEO, you're the president of your company, you're the founder, you're the creative force behind your company." We're so much more than the titles we give ourselves. Because everyone wants to be modest and humble. And I get it, you don't want to be a jerk. But also, you have to own your shit, you have to own your own expertise. Because as a business owner, nobody's going to give that to you, right? No outside force is going to come in and say, "Paul, you're the CEO now." And you're going to go, "Oh my God, am I? I made it." It's like, "No, we're making it ourselves," right? So it might sound arrogant sometimes, and you don't have to say it all the time, but you have to believe it. You have to believe that you are the CEO, whatever inflated title you think is too much, you have to behave as though that's true. PS: I love that, because for us, we've been doing this for nine years, our business has been existing for nine years. And we've never seen ourselves as the owners, right? So for the nine years, we've been just slaving away, making sure that we have work for everyone and blah blah blah. But then, just one moment, we were talking to our friends, and they're like, "You're the CEO, you have to do CEO shit. You can't just do secretary stuff, just hire a secretary. Do owner stuff." And the way that you say that to yourself, it makes you feel more empowered. People who say that they're just wedding planners, and they go to conventions, you're not just the wedding planner, you're already at a convention, that means you're serious. This is a real, real business. So yeah, people have to own up to--RD: Yeah.PS: Yeah. I love that.RD: You have to change your mindset, and you have to learn. It's going to sound so woo-woo, and I can't believe I'm saying this, but I believe it. You have to vibrate at a higher frequency for stuff like that. You just have to let yourself be up here unapologetically. And because, listen, at the end of the day, our businesses are our babies, and we are solely in charge of them. So if something in your business isn't working, it's our responsibility to fix it. And sometimes, it literally just is-- the mindset is off. Your mindset isn't working in your favor, right? And but again, this mindset is pervasive, it comes out in our language. So when I hear someone say, "I'm just a wedding planner," I'm thinking, oh, what's going on with them, right? Do they not have a supportive spouse, maybe? Maybe their spouse is saying, "Well, this little thing you're doing is just for now." Maybe they are not natural leaders. Maybe they have to work on their leadership for their team. Maybe they just have to change their mindset around money, right? We didn't even get around the topic of language around money, but it's the same deal. It's learning to control the language that you have around all of these things. Because once you start acknowledging it and changing it, then it becomes second nature, and you don't have to say to yourself, "Oh, I said 'just' again." Right? Now, when I say "just", I think, oh, did I say it? As opposed to I'm always saying it, and I'm training myself out of it.PS: Yeah, I love that. So my last questions, it's plural because-- it's actually just one question.RD: Okay.PS: So it's basically what language should you use for rejection when you feel like the couple doesn't really fit with you? For example, I saw last night, I saw online, someone asked, "So what do I tell the couple if I see a lot of red flags?" Before they sign, how do I talk to them and say "eh"? RD: I, in the past, have said-- well, first of all, I don't give anyone any sort of pricing or any information until I've spoken to them. And I firmly believe that that is the way everyone should be doing this, because what we do is so personal that it's really hard. It'd be hard for me to send out a price sheet and have someone be like, "I choose you." You'll be like, "Wait a minute, who are you? What is even your deal? I don't know if I want to work with you." So first, we have a conversation. And if I see a lot of red flags, oftentimes I won't send them a proposal. What I'll send instead is an email that I think I have in my canned email that's letting them down easy. And I just say, "It's been really lovely speaking with you and getting to know you. Based on what you told me in our conversation, I don't think that I'm the right fit for you." And I don't necessarily give them reasons, right? Because it doesn't matter, because they're not going to change. Or more accurately, nothing that they can say at that point will change my mind that I don't want to work with them, right? So I had a client, or not a client, but a potential client, many years ago, describe herself as a bridezilla six times during the consult. And she would say it and then laugh, like haha, like it was the funniest thing. I never laughed, I was just taking notes. And she didn't have her fiance on the call. She never even told me his name. She never referenced him, like "my fiance Joe". She just said "my fiance" as if that were his name. By the end, I said, "I'm sorry, you never gave me his name." And she goes, "I didn't?" And I said, "No." She was, "That's funny," and then went into something else. And I was like, it just was clearly not for me. So I wrote her an email and I said, "It was really lovely getting to know you. Based on our conversation, I don't think I'm the right fit for you. Here's who I'd recommend for you." And I always send at least two referrals to people that I really genuinely think could handle that situation, right? That I think they'd be a better fit for. And I don't necessarily feel the need to overly explain myself. In that particular case, she did write back and asked why. And I said, "One of the things I love as a wedding planner is working equally with both halves of the couple, no matter what that couple looks like. And because your fiance wasn't on the call and didn't seem very present in the proceedings, I just know that it's ultimately not going to be a good fit for me." And I never heard from her again. So I think when you're strong in your convictions and you know your core values, and you know the people you want to work with, it's much easier to say no to the ones you don't. But I also don't think we need to be writing diary entries about how much we don't want to work with them. I think that's when it pays to be super almost masculine in your responses, just like it's a hard line, right? Because the other thing you can say is like, "I don't think we'd be a good fit because you said something about being a bridezilla." And then she'd be like, "Well, I was just kidding," and blah blah blah.PS: That's it.RD: Then you're opening it up for more drama. It's a no.PS: Okay.RD: It's hard though, hard to do that.PS: It's super hard. I feel like the person who posted that online, he was just afraid to piss him off or break their heart.RD: Yeah, of course, you don't want to be a bad person. And also, not all of us are in a position to say no to the money. But then again, once you have a bad client that you've taken for money, you always realize that's bad money. You don't want that money anyway.PS: I think it's good that people have us, people like us to tell them that it's money now, but it's going to be a headache in a few months.RD: I feel like everyone has to do it once, and then they go, "Oh yeah, that was bad." Yeah, that was bad.PS: Okay, so the last one, the very last one, because I said language for rejection, right?RD: Yes.PS: What language-- how do you say-- how do you deal with a really livid couple when you did something wrong? Or you didn't do anything wrong, and they're super mad, how do you talk to them?RD: So I always try to figure out where they're coming from. Oftentimes, it is not about us, and the hardest thing as a business owner is to not take things personally. Weddings are emotional, right? A lot of times, we are getting the brunt of something that happened with someone else. And I know as a wedding planner especially, so many times I'll get an email that's like, "We're behind and da da da da, and this and that." And I have to read it and go okay, this person feels panicked, because they think something's not happening that should. I always deal with the facts first. I take the emotion right out of it. In fact, sometimes I actually ignore the emotion, right? Especially if they're coming at me hot, I'm just like, "Okay, what are the facts here? The facts are this person feels scared, this person thinks that A, B and C was not done. That is incorrect, A, B and C is done, here's the proof of when it was done. What else can I help you with?" I always try to move it forward, especially because my clients, or some other brides or grooms or whomever, tend to get a little worked up. Sometimes I always tend to just go okay, don't take it emotionally. Sometimes you got to close the email, walk around the house a little bit, walk around your office, burn it off, come back and be like, okay, what are they really saying, right? Because it's hard when someone's like, "You didn't do something." If they're pointing fingers, "You're bad at your job." And they might not have said that, but that's the tone, right? It's hard to divorce yourself from that and be like, "Okay, well, that's their opinion. Let's deal with the facts." And listen, if you didn't do something that needed to get done, or there was a misstep, of course apologize, absolutely apologize. And oftentimes, what I try to do is I make it right and then apologize. Fix it before you even-- fix it, just whatever it is, fix it. And then go back and say, "You know what? You're right, that did not get done, but it is done now, and here is the outcome." Because basically, all those emails are, all those communications are, is them throwing up a flare going, "Oh my God, something's really bad, we have to fix it." And so your job is to just fix it. Just fix it, fix it first. The other thing with communication, and you didn't ask this, but I'll just say it now. So many times, our clients are frustrated with us because they don't know what we're doing. And oftentimes it's eas

On the sixteenth installment of The Link Up with Latesha, our incredible host Latesha Byrd, founder of Byrd Career Consulting, shares a few signs of how to know when it's time to leave your job. We spend over a third of our lives in our careers, so the importance of feeling valued and respected at work cannot be overstated.Interested in attending Latesha's free masterclass? Click here for more information!Learn more about Latesha on the BCC website or connect with her through her socials! LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBStop by LateshaByrd.com!Check out Latesha's YouTube channel!BCC's socials: LinkedIn, IG, Twitter, FBVisit our website!TRANSCRIPTLatesha: What's up, everyone? Welcome to The Link Up with Latesha on Living Corporate. This podcast is for young professionals that need some real advice, tips, and resources to navigate corporate America and dominate their career. If you're looking to upgrade your brand, get the knowledge you need to level up professionally for your future, you are in the right place. I'm your host, Latesha Byrd. So let's get into today's episode. I am so excited to be speaking to you all today about this extremely timely and important topic, and I'll share what it is in just a second. I'm going to build a little bit of suspense here and just talk about how long this year has been. I am so happy that we are in the final stretches of 2019. We are in the final stretches of a whole decade. I am ready for 2020. I am ready for a fresh start, a new beginning. This year has felt extremely long. It's felt like it's been two to three years, heck, even five years, wrapped up into one. I've had a lot of changes, a lot of transformations, a lot of growth and failures--which I like to call redirections instead--and yeah, this has been a very, very long year. It's funny because every person that I've spoken with, from client to friend, we're just feeling a little drained at this point, you know? I think we're all ready, you know, for the year to just kind of wrap up. [laughs] So what I'm speaking to you all about today is how to know when it's time to leave your job. In 2020, I don't want anyone to have to settle for a job, have to settle in their career, for a paycheck, you know? Money is important. Paying our bills is important. And living a certain lifestyle, for some, is extremely important. However, you know, your emotional well-being is so significant, and I know if you guys have been listening to some former episodes, you know I speak on the topic of mental health here and there, and it's so important that we take our mental health just as important as we do our physical health. This also means re-evaluating, re-assessing and checking in with ourselves as needed if we are in the right career, if we're in the right job, if we are with the right company. As a career coach, I speak to people every single day that are unhappy in their jobs. They don't feel like it's rewarding. They don't feel motivated to go to work every day. If you are so unhappy at your job to the point where it will eventually start to trickle into other areas of your life, that is an issue. You know, we spend over a third of our lives in our career, and over the span of our entire career we will work 90,000 hours at least. That's a lot of... that's a lot of hours. [laughs] That's a lot of energy and time, and so I--if you follow me on Twitter, please do. It's @Latesha_Byrd. I just tweet a lot of career advice regularly, and I've been doing some threads lately, and this thread got a ton of traction and a lot of people reaching out to me telling me that the thread really motivated them to take a hard look at themselves and their career and make some changes in their life, and so I thought it would be great as we are wrapping up this year, going into a new year, setting some new goals and just checking in with ourselves, to talk about some of these things, and so I want to give you all a few signs of how to know when it's time to leave your job, all right? So I'll go ahead and hop into it. The first one, I call it the Sunday night test. Do you dread Sunday evenings and try not to think about work? Like, you actually do everything possible [laughs] to distract you from thinking about it? You might not like your job. You really might not like your job. Sundays for me--Sunday is actually my favorite day of the week, but Sunday I spend a lot of time journaling and planning and prepping and just getting in the right mindset for the week. Not in the way of--not in the same manner as "Oh, I gotta get this week started, and man, I don't want to go to work tomorrow. I don't even want to think about it." I'm actually excited to go, you know, into my week, my work week, and so it typically starts on Sundays for me. I was at an event, and after the event I was talking to a couple of women, and they asked me that question. They said, you know, "Teesh, how do you know if you like your job or not? What is the test?" And I said, "Well, how do you feel on Sundays? You know, how do you feel about the work week?" And her response, or one of the ladies' responses was, "Ooh, I don't even think about it." Like, "I do everything possible to not think about it." That could be a sure sign that you don't like your job. So that's #1. #2, and this is really, really important guys. Like, if you don't take anything else from this today, please listen to this. The thought of going into work or as you driving to work or taking the train to work, you know, during your commute to work, your anxiety peaks just at the thought of going into work or actually, you know, being in transit on your way to work. You feel that anxiety creeping up. I would really challenge you to do some reflecting on that. Where is that anxiety coming from? And the other piece to that is you are jealous of others that you see love their work. You live for lunch breaks. 5 p.m. or the weekends, you know? I see a lot of people tweeting during the week where they're like, "4:00. I just got one more hour left. I just got 30 minutes left," you know? Or "Oh, it's only 2:00 and I feel like I've been here for 12 hours." [laughs] Look, I mean, I--let me tell you this though, 'cause I want to make sure that I'm being extremely transparent here. I love what I do. I don't love what I do every single day. So I do have these moods, I will be honest with you, but the good definitely outweighs the bad here, you know? But if you find yourself going into work, dreading going into work, you feel anxiety going into work, you get there, you can't wait for lunch. Lunch break is over? You can't wait until you get off, and then you're literally counting down--Tuesday and Wednesday you're counting down to the weekend. It doesn't have to be that way. It really doesn't. That could be a sign that it is time to go. Next, you have no desire to move up. You feel that you are meant to do bigger and better, and you find yourself daydreaming often at work. Maybe it's hard to stay focused. This could be a sign that you actually don't like the work that you're doing. You don't want to do more of it. [laughs] If you have no desire to move up at your company, maybe you're looking at your boss--maybe that could be, or maybe that is, the next thing up or, you know, the next step up in that company, and you look at your boss and you're thinking, "I don't want to do this job. I don't want to do what she's doing," or "I don't want to do what he's doing." This could be a sign that upward mobility is not really something that you would aspire to in that company. So if you don't really see an area, an opportunity, that you would like to grow into, it may be good to consider some other options, because, you know, in your career over time there should be some growth. There should be some growth. Maybe it's not in job title. Maybe it's in skills. Maybe it's in the type of work that you are doing. Maybe you're expanding, you know, the markets that you're in. You are, you know, trying and doing new things, but if you don't see anyone at your company that you aspire to be like, you don't aspire to do the work that they're doing, then I'm not sure how that long-term plan or path would work out for you at that company. Next, your environment is toxic. I know so many people that stay in toxic work environments, and, you know, it's--it's just not good for your health. Even if you like what you do. Let me be honest. There are some people that actually like the work that they do, but their environment is so toxic that it definitely puts an emotional weight and toll on what you do, you know? There's a lot of folks that are with great companies, but they are in the wrong teams. They're under the wrong leadership. So let me just kind of add some clarifiers here around what could signify that you are in a toxic environment. Your coworkers. You know, a lot of us spend more time with our coworkers than we do with our own family. [laughs] Real talk. And so if your coworkers can't be trusted, meaning they complain constantly about the company, they talk negatively about other coworkers, you know, they're sneaky, you know? You see others getting promoted when you know you've been carrying the work of the team. Maybe leadership is a little bit dishonest or distant. These are signs that your environment is toxic. Have you ever been around a coworker and they talk so much junk about another coworker when they're not around, and then when that coworker comes back they're smiling in that face? Do y'all know people like that? You know, that type of drama and negativity and pettiness can be extremely draining, and it's also hard to stay focused on the task, it's hard to stay focused on, you know, what you are meant to do there when you're having to deal with drama and you're having to deal with that type of negativity, because I guarantee you if they're--if they're talking about another coworker when you're not around, at least I know for me, when I worked in corporate, I always thought, "Man, if they're talking about this person, what are they saying about me when I'm not around?" So those are some signs of being in a toxic work environment. Going back to this, you know, seeing others get promoted when you know you've been carrying the work of the team. Man, I--[laughs] I see this a lot with black women, I'll be honest, where we are carrying the work, but, you know, we have other coworkers that don't look like us that are getting promoted because they seem like they are, you know, that manager, leader material. That is a sign of an environment that you probably need to get out of. Now, if you are doing a lot of extra work and--first I would say start having conversations with management and leadership about, you know, the fact that you are picking up additional work. Maybe you're taking on more projects. Maybe you asked for it. Maybe you want a promotion. Ladies, we have to make it known that we want to get promoted. We have to make it known. So if you've done these things, you've done the stretch work, you have proven yourself to be a leader, and you're being overlooked for promotions and someone else on your team is being promoted and you know that you've been putting in more hours, more time, you know, you have been doing the work, it might warrant you to have some additional conversations with leadership. Now, let me just say that doing the work itself just is not enough too. You definitely will want to make sure that you are building the right relationships. You know, we all know that in corporate there is a game that you have to play, but I'm gonna move onto bad leadership. Bad leadership is I think one of the biggest indicators that you may not be able to grow in your role. You know, a lot of people are promoted because they're really good at their jobs, and that promotion may lead to them taking over a team of others in that same department. That doesn't always mean that they are great leaders. There is a difference between a good leader and a good manager. There are some folks in management positions that don't know how to lead. They don't have the people skills, and that requires us to have to manage up. So with that being said, you definitely need to make sure that you are managing that relationship with leadership, but here's some examples of some not so great leadership. You don't have a relationship with them and leadership does not even attempt to have a relationship with you. They do not ask you about your career goals. Even if you try to bring up your career goals in conversation they brush it off. Maybe when you tell them that you have a desire to grow at the company they're like, "Oh... just keep doing what you're doing," or "No, you're doing great. You know, just stay--you're fine, what are you talking about?" You know? Like, y'all know what I'm saying. [laughs] If you have had that conversation where you've said, "I want to build my skill set. I want to talk about what a promotion would look like," and they are constantly brushing you off or they'll say things like, "Oh, let's talk about it in six months. Let's talk about in the spring." You know, "We just had budget cuts. Let's talk about it again once we get our new budget," right? Then that timeframe comes around and again they're like, "Oh, let's talk about it in another six months." This happens a lot. So that is a sign of bad leadership. In terms of feedback, you don't really get feedback even when you ask for it. Maybe let's say you know that you could've done better on a project, you know? Maybe you're really great at, you know, being efficient with your time, you're really great at, you know, being a leader within your team, holding a team together, but when it comes to you having to present to leadership, you know, maybe public speaking is a skill that you really need to work on. And let's say that you try to have a conversation with leadership because you know that you can do better in terms of that public speaking skill or public speaking in general and they kind of brush it off where you know it's something you need to improve on, that to me is a warning sign, because if someone wants you--if they see that you have potential and they want you to grow, they need to give you that feedback so that you can grow. Just a couple of other things. Next, you're bored at work. Your responsibilities have not matured. You have literally been doing the same thing for years at this point. You're not learning anything new. Your boss wants you to--I think I talked about this just a few minutes ago, but your boss just wants you to keep doing what you're doing, but you're really tired of doing the same thing every day. [laughs] Ask if you could do, you know, some new things. You feel like you're not learning or growing. That is a sure sign that you've outgrown your role, and this actually happened to me. It happened to me at a point where I had first transitioned into recruiting, and I had a mentor who had worked in recruiting for some time. Well, he actually recruited me when I first got into corporate. So, you know, I kind of sought out his advice when I made that leap into it, and he said, you know, "The first three years, just focus on doing the job well and learning the territories and building relationships with leadership. Don't change up anything. Don't implement any new recruiting strategies until year three." So I said, "Okay," and year one--you know, recruiting is a hard job, I'll be honest with you. It's a lot of moving pieces, a lot of moving parts, so year one was pretty challenging, but year two I knocked it out the park. I mean, I implemented new recruiting strategies even though he told me to wait. [laughs] I had developed some really good relationships with all of our candidates. I was, you know, very metric-driven and pretty organized and self-sufficient, and so I had recruiting running like a well-oiled machine, you know, to the best of my ability, and I wanted to grow. I wanted more. I wanted to just pick up new things and new tasks and be able to be more of a leader, and I wasn't getting that opportunity although I had expressed it. And I had went to lunch with a mentor, now mentor of mine, who has been in diversity and inclusion for many, many years. He now does consulting on his own. And I was just explaining to him the situation I was in, and he said, "You know what? It really sounds like you've outgrown your role," and I was like, "Hm." I kind of had to--it caught me off guard because it was so true and I didn't realize it. So many of us have outgrown our roles and we know that we are meant to be doing more and adding more value and being more impactful at work. I want to wrap it up here about this. If you are mentally and physically ill due to the stress of your work to the point where you cannot get out of bed, you need to wrap it up. Seriously. You know, I have had conversations, very hard conversations, with some folks who have told me that work has stressed them out to the point where they are on, you know, meds, anxiety medication, depression medication. They don't have the energy to even get to work. I just want to say that a job like that is never worth your health, is never worth your emotional stability, so if you can, take a leave of absence. Take a sick day, you know? Call out. Take a mental health day. Whatever you need to do to get yourself back into a better mental state, do it. So there are a lot of us that have been in these toxic work environments for too long, or maybe you've outgrown your role, maybe you're just unhappy and unfulfilled. I want you to really check in with yourself and ask yourself, "Am I going through these things? Am I experiencing these things right now at work?" So... wow, I feel like this was [laughs] a little bit of a heavy topic, but this is something that I am passionate about, because I don't think any of us deserve to be in an environment that we don't truly enjoy, where we don't feel valued and where we don't feel respected. It's not worth--it's not worth it, most definitely not, especially if it's to the point where it is, you know, affecting your health. So with that being said, I'm teaching a masterclass, a free masterclass, on December 11th on 7:00 p.m. Eastern time and December 14th 11:00 a.m. Eastern time again, in talking about how to unleash your career potential in 2020. Super excited about it. I have about 200 and something folks signed up. So I will put that in the show notes so you all can hopefully register. It's completely free. I would love to talk with you all a little bit more. What I'll be talking about on that webinar is just how do you really launch your job search for 2020, how can you make sure that you are setting yourself up for success so that you can get into a place of happiness and enjoyment and fulfillment in your career. So if anything that I shared on this podcast today resonated with you and you are thinking, "Yes, it is time for me to leave," I need for you to sign up. Sign up for the masterclass. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening, and I will catch you next time.

How can eCommerce businesses reduce their time to first purchase by 10X? This week on The Inbound Success Podcast, WordPress developer and eCommerce expert Jason Resnick shares the process he uses to help eCommerce businesses dramatically reduce the time from first touch to first purchase. And while Jason works primarily with eCommerce businesses, the advice he shares is equally applicable to businesses in other verticals. From visitor segmentation, to behavioral analytics and content personalization, Jason goes into detail on the process he has used to help one client reduce time to first purchase from 40 days to 8, and for another client from 9 days to 1.  Some highlights from my conversation with Jason include: Jason is a WordPress developer and eCommerce marketing expert. According to Jason, one of the keys to reducing the time to first purchase is to capitalize on the positive emotion that a visitor feels when they discover your site for the first time and get them to explore further. One way to do this is by adding a widget to your site with related blog articles. Asking your visitors a qualifying question is a good way to learn a bit more about them and then use that information to tailor what you show them. With these types of questions, and then behavioral information like the articles and pages your visitors are looking at, you can create a lead scoring model. Based on the topics that a visitor is consuming content on, you can use that information to change the copy on your CTAs to make them more relevant to your visitors' interests. In eCommerce, the first 90 days are crucial. If you can't convince a new contact to purchase something with the first 90 days, the odds of ever selling to them drop dramatically. When Jason works with new clients, he begins by taking baseline measurements of how long it takes for a new contact to go from first touch to first purchase. By using segmentation, intent awareness, and personalized copy, Jason has been able to reduce time to first purchase for one client from 40 days to 8, and for another client from 9 days to 1.  When it comes to converting new leads into customers, Jason says it all comes down to trust, and you need to build trust into every interaction you have, from your website copy to your email marketing. Resources from this episode: Save 10% off the price of tickets to IMPACT Live with promo code "SUCCESS" Visit the Rezzz website Follow Jason on Twitter Connect with Jason on LinkedIn Listen to the podcast to learn exactly how Jason helps his client shorten their sales cycles - and how you can too. Transcript Kathleen Booth (Host): Welcome back to the Inbound Success Podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen Booth, and today my guest is Jason Resnick, who is the founder of Rezzz. Welcome Jason. Jason Resnick (Guest): Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Jason and Kathleen recording this episode together . Kathleen: Tell my audience a little bit about what Rezzz is, and your background, and how you came to be doing what you're doing now. About Rezzz Jason: Sure. Rezzz is my business, it's what I've been doing for, this August will be nine full years, full time for myself. I am a solopreneur. I don't have a team behind me, but it's a web development business. I've always loved the eCommerce space, and the human behavior behind all of eCommerce. Where most developers and designers shy away from eCommerce so early on when eCommerce was ramping up in the early 2000s, I flocked to it, I was attracted to it. I built my business around helping online businesses, and I call them eCommerce, it could be anybody taking a transaction. I have nonprofit clients. I have online coaches. I have clients that sell physical products. Basically anybody taking a transaction, to help them get anonymous visitors into being customers, and then customers into repeat customers, and then repeat customers into raving fans. I do that through a number of different strategies and tactics, which most of them revolve around what's called behavioral marketing, or email automation, but also a mix of onsite personalization, that's where my skillset as a web developer come into play. Kathleen: Yeah. You know, it's funny that you say that about marketers shying away from eCommerce, because I've worked with a lot of marketers in my time. I was an agency owner for 11 years, and of course now I'm at Impact. It's true, I know a lot of marketers, and a lot of them say, "I don't touch eCommerce." It's almost like they're afraid to. I know one or two who do it, and the ones I know who do it have like gone deep, I think because there's such an opportunity, or a vacuum left by everybody else. Why do you think it is that marketers shy away from it so much? Jason: I think it really stems from there's so much tech involved with it, and it's so close to the bottom line that it's easy, I mean, and this is going to come out bad, but because there is a direct correlation that business owners see X dollars coming in per month, per day, or whatever it is from the site, when you say that you can affect that, they're going to see that result immediately. Most marketers, and obviously when we build campaigns sometimes those things take some time to build up, and sometimes you have to have those difficult conversations with clients a little bit earlier on in the eCommerce space than, let's say nonprofits, or standard brochure type websites, those things. I think that because of not just that, those difficult conversations that you might have to have, but also the tech side of things, if something goes wrong, if you're the point of contact and you don't necessarily know at a deep level what those technical bells and switches are, then you're going to be like, "Uh." With your hands raised and saying, "I'm not sure. Let's go see what we can find out from the tech team." I think at least from my experience, that's what customers tell me when they come into my ecosystem. They want somebody that, they may not know all the technical aspects of things, but they do understand that some things do take time, and they just want somebody that can take care of all of it for them. They don't want that ping pong match like, oh this is the host, and this is the developer, and this is the marketing side of things. They don't want that ping pong match, and they kind of just want that holistic point of contact person to be able to say, "Yes, there's a problem." Or, "Yes, this is what we need to do." At least from my experience I think that that's the reason why a lot of people shy away from it. Kathleen: Yeah. It's interesting because web design, development, et cetera, in general comes with a lot of high stakes, especially in this day and age when so many people find your business by your website. With eCommerce, as you rightfully pointed out, it's like way, way, way higher stakes, because your business is your website. Jason: Right. Kathleen: Your website is your business. Either way you look at it, if you break something, you're breaking the entire revenue stream of the business, not just like, oh our customers couldn't see our website today, or we didn't get another form fill. Jason: Right. Kathleen: Yeah, it's not an inconvenience, it's a major, major risk. I can totally see that. Now, and I should say, you came with very high marks, because I met you through one of my past podcast guests. This is one of my favorite ways to get new guests, is when former guests reach out and say, "Hey, I have somebody you should talk to." That actually happened in your case when Val Geisler, who I interviewed a few months ago, wrote to me unsolicited and said, "I really think you should talk to this guy." Val, for those who either didn't hear her episode or don't know, is an amazing email conversion copywriter, mostly for B2B SaaS companies. I have a tremendous amount of respect for her, and as soon as she wrote to me I said, "I'll talk to anybody that you think I should talk to." Jason: Thank you very much. Kathleen: Yeah. No, that was a good introduction. You do a lot of work, because you're in eCommerce, and what is interesting to me about you is that you're not just a web developer/designer. You work on some of the other aspects of eCommerce businesses, personalization, conversion optimization. How did you get from web design and development into these other areas? Jason: I think actually it, well my career took me in that path, but I think as a person it was the other way around. I've always been interested in human behavior. I got a minor in psychology in college. For me, and I went to college in the late '90s, and that was the advent of the internet. I mean, I remember going to the computer lab and building my first webpage. That was in like '96. Kathleen: I remember learning Basic. Jason: Right. Yes. Me too. Kathleen: I'm not going to say any more, because then that'll really date me. Jason: For me, when the advent of the internet came along, that was intriguing enough, because I was actually going for computer science at the time. At that time it was a lot of compiling code, and waiting for things to happen. Yet the web was like, I put code on a screen and I hit save, and I refresh and boom it's there. Hey, that's pretty cool. That intrigued me, but also my human nature side of things, just being perceptive of the world around me and kind of how people interact with certain things, and why they do what they do, and why they don't do what they don't do, always intrigued me. When the eCommerce world hit, pre Amazon, all the rest of it, people were afraid to put their credit cards in. Even online, let alone cellphones weren't even really a thing at that point in time. I was working for a consulting firm at that time, and we dealt with a lot of startups, and all of them wanted some sort of eCommerce in some sort of fashion. For me, it was always interesting to say, okay, if we use certain buttons in a certain way, and certain text in certain colors, we could create this, I don't want to say an artificial, but a perceptive environment of being safe. Where they can submit their credit card and not feel that they are sending it over and somebody's copying that down and running away with their identity. For me, that was the genesis of where I am today. I've always just kind of had that snowball effect, and really focus in on that specific part of my development skills. Because as you said, a lot of people were shying away from it, and I always knew that I wanted to work for myself. I had to find that niche, if you will, that sweet spot to really plant my flag in, and fit into a market that I could become known for. That was how I started all that. Just as the web evolved, now with email marketing, and how much data you can collect on somebody just by asking them a few questions, you can segment, you can promote certain things based around where a person is in their journey and their awareness. You can do all these things and marry things like your email marketing platform with your website with a little bit of code. Now there are services out there that can do this too, that your website can look completely different with two different people. It's all based around what you know about that person, where they came from, demographics, or even just what you know they clicked on in your last email. That's always been interesting to me because that's like the mom and pop of like the early 1900s, where somebody would walk into the store and you would have all your stuff ready because they knew you came in every Thursday. They knew who you were. For me, having that personalization and segmentation is what allows you, as the business owner, to know where your potential customers are, where your customers are, where your repeat customers are, and know how to cater to them in the best way possible. Kathleen: You know, it's fascinating that you just brought that up, because I literally just, as we're recording this, this morning published my latest episode, which was a conversation with Shai Schechter, who's the founder of a company called Right Message. That's exactly what he talked about, was his platform that he's built lets you ask your visitor a simple question like, what brings you here today? He actually equated it to the conversation you have when you walk into a shop. Like nobody is saying, "What industry are you in?" It's, "What brings you here today?" Jason: Right. Kathleen: Based on the answer to that, you can dynamically then update the copy on the page. He was seeing like 10x improvements in landing page and CTA conversion rates from that kind of like small amount of personalization. I definitely think there's something to it. Jason: Yeah, absolutely. I know Shai, I've known him for a couple of years. We've met at some events and things of that nature. Yeah, he's built a great platform. His platform's called Right Message, and I use Right Message as well for some assets of my business. Yeah, I mean it's that idea of, we've gotten away from that broadcast everything to everybody. Now we want to really cater to the one on one. That is what's going to increase conversions, and that's what's going to help you convert non customers to customers as quickly as possible. The more you know about them, the more that you can speak their language, the more that you're serving up the thing that they want at the right time, that's going to help you with your conversions. Reducing The Time to First Purchase Kathleen: Yeah. Now you, as you said, you do a lot of work in eCommerce, and one of the biggest areas of opportunity for optimization in eCommerce is how long it takes from first touch, if you will, with a lead or a prospect, to getting them to purchase. Time to first purchase. You've done some interesting work on shortening that time period, can you talk a little bit about that? Jason: Sure. Yeah. As you said, any time somebody sees you for the very first time, there's this innate human factor inside of us that, hey, we like this thing. This is awesome. There's this emotion, this euphoria that you get on the human side. What you want to do is, from a technical perspective, is to be able to capitalize on that euphoria, that feeling of good that somebody sees in you. What you can do nowadays is just ask them a couple of questions, or in the behavioral marketing side of things, see what they click on, what is interesting to them, what do they not click on? Those kind of things, prior to them even being in your email list. When they're in your email list obviously there's more details that you can get to, but with code snippets and things of that nature you can actually change your website around what they're reading on your blog. What you can do with your own blog, if you will, and I'm sure many of you have seen it, is that you have this "widget" that says, "You may also like ..." Or, "Here's other content that might be interesting to you." Because what you're on, the article that you're reading at this point in time, there is related articles in that same category on that same website. What they want you to do is, hey, if you're interested in this, then go check out this as well. They're trying to move you along in that journey to know that if you have a specific problem, well we have some resources and we know how to solve your problem. What you can do in the background of things is you can do "lead scoring". If somebody, let's just say on your website you have a bunch of articles around pricing or things of that nature, pricing, let's say you also have things on sales, or marketing. If somebody hits a couple of articles on your marketing side of things but they never look at pricing, then you could potentially change your website around that a little bit more. Make your calls to action to talk about marketing versus pricing. I do this on my website plenty of times. If somebody comes to me from, because I specialize in convert kit and drip, if somebody comes to me from the convert kit consultation, or convert kit experts they call them, if that webpage, then my services page gets reflected on that. I don't even mention drip, I just mention convert kit, because that's where they came from, so I'm assuming, based on their behavior, that that's what they're interested in. They're not interested in anything else that I do. You can be mindful of these sort of things, and just talking their language allows you to then get them to the next stage faster. Because if I can echo what they're saying to me, based on their actions what they're saying to me, then just us as humans we're going to say, "Hey, that's what I'm looking for. You know what I'm talking about." What I'll try to do in that respect is to be able to then grab their email address, and then market to them in that end. Talk to them about convert kit. Talk to them about potentially segmentation and those kind of things, or automated workflows if that's what they're looking for. All of this data really just gets passed over into my email marketing platform and my welcome sequence tailors to that. What that does is, like for my clients, is to be able to then baseline how long it takes for someone to first opt into your email list and then buy from you, because that window of opportunity is finite. Once you go past about 90 days, and obviously this depends on the type of product or service that you're selling, but on average 90 days, then you're not going to convert, or you're a lot less likely to convert. You want to be able to then, especially if you're selling multiple things, sell quickly. You want them to get that first purchase because that's always the hardest, and then get them to repeat buy after that. With just some small tweaks, and some small segmentation, and intent awareness, because we can dive into that a little bit more. Just based around some of those things you can then shorten that time frame greatly. I have some results where I've done for my clients, take their baseline of 40 days to the first purchase, and gone down to eight. I've had another client where it was nine days down to less than a day. Kathleen: Wow. Jason: It's just a matter of knowing and understanding the actions that somebody's taking, and then putting the right promotion, if you will. I mean, it doesn't necessarily have to be a buy, it could be an email opt in or whatever. Putting the right promotion in front of them. How To Measure Time To First Purchase Kathleen: Let's wind back a little bit. Let's say I come to you and I'm an eCommerce company, and I'm interested in focusing on this time to first purchase kind of metric. You talked about how the first thing you have to do is establish a baseline of how long is it actually already taking people to get from first touch to first purchase? Walk me through exactly what you're doing to measure that. Are there certain tools that you put in place? Tracking tools, what is it you're looking at in order to determine that? Jason: Sure. I think only one person was tracking this that came to me, which makes my life easier. Most times what I look for is really I look for obviously their customer list, and I take their email addresses. Then unfortunately there's no tool to marry this stuff. I basically take a spreadsheet, an export of that, of all their customers, and then I go to their email service provider and I see when they opted in. Then I try to figure out, based on the dates around them becoming a customer and when they first opted in, and I kind of take a baseline, if you will, "baseline", on what their metric is. Then I have a conversation with the business owner to kind of gauge what their sales team sees, if they have that data, and try to come up with the best possible estimation that they have for this. A lot of times, I mean there's obviously a percentage plus or minus, but a lot of times it's pretty accurate if you know the data that's there. Because we all know when they purchased their first thing, we all know when they came onto the email list. If it happened to be that ... I try to discount those that have zero day initially, because a lot of times people in the email marketing world, and I'm sure a lot of your audience knows this, a lot of times people will opt in with a different email than they'll actually pay with. Kathleen: Yeah. Jason: If they opted in on the same day they purchased, for the baseline I take that away. Kathleen: Yeah, there's a lot of XYZ@123.com. Jason: Right. Kathleen: Don'temailme@pleasestop.com. It's amazing how creative people get with those fake email addresses. Jason: Absolutely. Obviously there's some experience factor in there for where I try to come up with that baseline. Then what I do once I have that, then I go into their email marketing platform and I essentially create rules that store when they become an opt in, but also when they actually purchase. Which is just a custom field that really just does some math to say, okay, they subscribed on this date, they became a customer today, let's minus the two, how many days are there? Over the first month or two of doing that, I kind of gauge whether that baseline estimation that we first did is accurate enough to go off of. Then we move from there more into the optimization, asking certain questions, things of that nature to try to shorten that time. Jason's Process For Shortening Time To First Purchase Kathleen: Let's talk about that stage next. I've come to you, I say, "I need help with this." You calculate those initial baseline metrics. Then what? It sounds like you're using personalization and targeted offers in order to pull people through that customer buying journey. Is there any kind of like discovery process or research that you're using in order to determine what the right offer is, or the right way to persuade them? Jason: Yeah, absolutely. A lot of it is, in my own research anyway, is looking at their analytics first. Seeing what people are actually looking at on the website, because a lot of times it's not what the owner thinks. I want to make sure that I have the data, because for me, I'm a data geek and the numbers don't lie. If the business owner tells me one thing and the data tells me another thing, then we have a conversation to try to reconcile it in some way. That's first things first, is really looking at Google Analytics, or any other metrics that they could possibly have. A lot of people use Hotjar and some of these other tools out there that help you with the customer interaction on your website. I start there. Then I have conversations with the business owner as well as certain key members on their team, if they have those kind of people. People like marketing, sales, people that are closer to the customer, if you will. Support teams, those sort of things, to really start to get an understanding of, and it's not even technical, it's just what kind of words do you hear all the time? What pain points people are struggling with. What opt ins do you have on your site that actually can map to a product? Because a lot of people, especially in the eCommerce space, they say, "Hey, we had a discount for this. Sign up on your first purchase." Is that working for you, or is something else working for you when you run a holiday sale instead? I try to gauge what that customer is thinking. Because we can assume that we're putting the best foot forward, but if the customer is coming to you depending on the product or service obviously, they're coming to you with two things in mind. One is their intent, they're intent on solving the problem. Is the page that they're on, or your product, or service, actually going to solve their problem that they have right now? Two, what's their motivation behind solving that problem? I really want to get down to those two things. It's not scientific in the way where there's actual numbers, at least initially. I want to make assumptions on that, and put campaigns out, look at welcome sequences. Look at all of these kind of things that they're already doing that we can inject some questions, or inject some relative links to blog posts, or products, or whatever, os that we can get a better gauge on what their intent is and what their motivation is without actually asking them. Kathleen: Now you talked about nurturing sequences, and onboarding workflows, and things like that. I do find it's very easy in this day and age to overwhelm audiences with email particularly. Do you have any rules of thumb that you use as far as like, how soon do we email them and how frequently do we email them? Anything as far as even style of email, because I know there's a lot of different opinions on very designed emails versus plain text. I'd love just on the topic of email to hear your thoughts. Jason: Yeah. I mean, that's a whole nother episode. Kathleen: I know. Jason: Yeah. To answer the first part of the question about how often, frequency, those kind of things. First I have to know what they're doing already. If you came to me and said, "Look, I do a once a month promotion." If you just switch that up to a daily, then your list is going to be obliterated and they're going to be like, "I don't even know who this person is." They're going to get high on subscribe rates. If you have a pretty regular cadence, say once a week or something of that nature, it's really just throw it out, if you want to add another email. Because for me, my business when I send emails, I get paid. I will always try to mix in emails where I can. For how I like to do it, I try to do it in a human way, not just like let's just keep sending links to podcasts and blog articles, or products, or services, or stuff. I try to have the subscriber opt into those things. You can do that in a way where if you had, let's just say you had a cadence of every single week on Tuesday you send out an email to your list. You could just send out an email on Tuesday saying, "Hey look, we're going to add another email, or two emails, we're going to have it on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday now, and we're going to talk about this. And if you're interested in that, just click this button." They're automatically opted in. You could do things in a more human way, and it goes back to that whole mom-and-pop philosophy is, I want the subscriber to tell me. All of this stuff allows you insight into them, into the subscriber at an individual subscriber level. If they're excited to hear more from you, then you know that, hey, well they may be interested in a product or service that I have that's outside of the free level. You could do those kind of things. You can surely incentivize people with discounts and all of those other things. While that stuff does have its place and works, for the long term, creating those raving fans and repeat buyers, it's all based on trust. The trust factor comes in where you're actually genuine with them and, "Hey, I have an offer, I'm going to do this. If you're interested, all you have to do is let me know." Kathleen: You talked earlier about some examples of results in terms of shortening that time span. I would love to hear a little bit more about that. Do you have a couple of maybe specific examples of it started out at this long, went to that long, and like what led to those key changes? Jason: Yeah. I mean, specifically with some of those results, the one that's interesting is that one that was almost two weeks and I shortened it to a day, inside a day. That was really based around, it is a digital product company, but they also had a service on the back end of it too. What it was, was the funnel was very linear. It was somebody opts in and we promote this product to you, and it was a flash sale. It was like within 24 hours you can buy this for 99% off. That kind of thing. If they didn't take you up on that, then you go into this long term nurture sequence, which was basically two emails a week. Out of that it was pitching that same product over and over again, but at full price. It was, I call it a soft pitch. It's more like, hey, you've seen them in the bottom of your emails I'm sure, like in the P.S., like hey, we also if you're interested in this, we have this product. Which worked fairly well, I mean, nine days to opt in to convert to a customer is good. What they wanted to do was they had a lot of different products that served a couple of different audiences. Immediately when they opted in, unless they opted in via a specific opt in, they didn't know which audience they were. What I wanted to do was I wanted to basically put that front center. I mentioned it a little bit earlier on beforehand, is we can know before they opt in what they've already looked at, through JavaScript and cookies and local storage on their browsers, and that's all in the tech world. If we know what they looked at, then we kind of know what audience they're in. Instead of just pitching them that one thing on the back end of the opt in, let's pitch them the product that makes sense to them. That was the first step, was to really try to put that in place, which made a huge impact. I mean, that was just, that initial just, hey, let's look at the blog posts that they're looking at, and store that data. How many did they look at? How frequently did they look at? Based on that, let's position that product offering that's that tripwire product, if you will, for the next 24 hours at that discount, that's the product that makes sense for that audience. That shortened it almost to three days immediately, because people were more receptive to that offer because it made sense to them. Then there were some tweaks we made to the landing page, to the copy, based on some feedback that we got from those people that actually bought the product during that time. We made some optimizations, and that even shortened the time to first purchase. Kathleen: It's interesting to listen to you talk about this, because obviously the examples are eCommerce, but in my head I keep asking myself, is there anything here that doesn't apply to another type of sale? For example, like a complex B2B sale. I'm not hearing anything that's so specific to eCommerce. It's really just, if I'm understanding you correctly, it's really just about looking more closely at their behavior, and using that behavioral information and those patterns that are created to serve up information that's more directly relevant to their interests. Is that right? Jason: Absolutely. I mean, it just goes back to business in general. If you go to a conference, let's say you go to a conference with all colleagues of yours, they're in a similar business or industry than you are. You're going to talk to them in a different way than if you're going to a higher level conference where your customers might be. It's also a matter of awareness of the person that's viewing your online store or your website. Have they never seen you before, or are they intimately familiar with you and they know your name, they know your services? It's that buyer journey that happens with everybody, whether they're buying a pack of gum or they're buying some service that's going to cost them $10,000 a month. Obviously there's sales cycles, and that all comes into play, but it's the same business. You want to earn that trust. You want to speak their language. If you know the problem that you're proposing a solution for, then that person's going to be more receptive to hearing you. When you hear, that's where the conversion is. It's a matter of just taking them along that journey in a proper way, whether it is a complex B2B or whether it's a transaction where you just pull out your credit card and put it in. How Difficult Is It To Implement? Kathleen: This sounds straightforward on the one hand, the concept is straightforward. Then on the other hand it sounds really intimidating in terms of being able to execute it. Can you talk through how complex this is, and is this something that the typical business needs to hire a developer to do for them, or are there tools out there that make it really easy to do this? Jason: Yeah. I mean, it's as complex as you want to make it really. I like to try to keep things as simple as possible. I mean, I even, I have a thing on my white board, what would this look like if it was simple? Because we can over engineer everything. Once you start thinking one thing, it leads you to another thing, and you're going down this long rabbit hole, and you're like, "Oh my god, I don't know how I'm going to even do this thing." What I try to do is, if you come to me and you have decent enough traffic, you have decent enough sales, and we can have a conversation that's around potentially segmenting your audience better, if you don't do all that already. By segment I mean more so than customers versus non customers. If you're actually doing anything in regards to helping your customers move along the journey, meaning are you doing regular email sequences? Are you blogging? Are you doing these other things? If you are, then it's as simple as starting to think about what problems or what products are related? Let's just say you have a product that solves a problem that, let's say a developer has. As a developer I might have a problem where I need more RAM, or more compute power. If I go to a website and it just says, "Hey, buy this hard drive, or buy this RAM, or buy this monitor." Okay, but if I clicked on a blog post of theirs that talked more about compute power for my computer, and then I went to their product page and then it gave me three products that could help me there, I'm more likely to buy from there because they've already positioned a couple of things based around what I know, and I didn't sign up or anything. You can just start thinking about the product that you have and what problems that solves. That will help you start to build these things out. Keep it simple. Write it down in a notebook, or write it down in a document. You don't need a overbuilt tool to do all this stuff, at least initially. We mentioned Shai before. Right Message is a tool that you can build these. You don't need code. They give you a piece of code to put on your website, but you can build these in a visual editor. There's other tools out there as well. Initially it's really just even that widget we talked about earlier about, hey, you might like this content. On a lot of WordPress websites you can build that. There's plugins out there that would help you do that stuff. You don't necessarily need the code for that either. Keep it simple if you haven't done it yet, and see what sort of results you get. I mean, if you come to me, and usually people that do come to me, they already have this idea, they have the traction. That's why I said it earlier on, it's an established online business that I help, because they have the traction, but they want to increase more sales, they want to increase better brand relationships with their customers. They kind of have an idea that they can do this, they're just not sure what the strategies and the methods to go about doing it. What Kinds Of Results Can You Expect? Kathleen: Yeah. Are there any rule of thumbs that you use for like what kind of improvements that, on average, you think businesses can expect to experience if they go from not being contextual or using personalization to once they've done it? Jason: Yeah. It's hard, it's really based around what the price point is, to be honest with you. I feel like if it's a sub $100 product and/or service, people are more impulsive and you could probably see a quicker uptick in the percentage based around that. If it's north of $100 thing, then it's going to be a slower growth. You kind of need a little bit more time and data to see what's actually going to work and pull the triggers. On the other side of that is that those that are north of $100, you could ask existing customers certain things, which I would suggest things like, where were you when you bought this? What problem did it solve? How has it been since? By asking those questions of existing customers, you can help shorten that on the front end of it. I mean for me it's such a general rule, but I always say you could get 3% to 5% of anybody you talk to, to buy something. Obviously that's a very general rule. I always want to push that a lot higher than the 5%. What I try to do is I try to get the pages in which people are landing on for the purchase like 30% or more. Trying to get the messaging right, trying to get the distractions away from the page, because that's what a lot of eCommerce sites do. Just case in point, look at Amazon, they don't do a lot of that. Once you start going into their checkout process, the closer to your wallet that you get with Amazon, they remove everything. A lot of people don't even realize it. A lot of customers anyway, don't realize that the navigation goes away, continue to shop goes away, contact us goes away. All of these things go away as you start moving closer and closer to actually paying. Who better than Amazon to follow? Because they have the traffic, they have the data, and they publish a lot of these experiments for people to look at. I always try to, obviously depending on the price, I try to figure out what their baseline is. I want to always try to 10x the ROI that they put into me for their business. Kathleen: That makes sense, yeah. I kind of figured the answer when I asked that question might be some form of, it depends, so thank you for humoring me and answering that. Kathleen's Two Questions Kathleen: Well I'm curious to hear your answers to the two questions I usually ask my guests. When it comes to inbound marketing specifically, who do you think is doing it really well right now? It could be a company or it could be a person. Jason: Yeah, I mean, as far as inbound marketing, I'd have to say somebody that does it really well is Chris Marr. He runs the Content Marketing Academy, and he's a marketer that obviously he runs workshops for larger companies. What he does well and how he talks about what he does, it's always it's like the softest sell possible, and then you're just like, "Hey, yeah, I want to go to Chris, because he knows what he's talking about and he gets great results." His methodology and everything he talks about, it makes perfect sense. For me, I've known Chris a few years now. I've had him on my own podcast. It's just, I don't know, it's simple but yet so highly effective that it's sometimes like, hey, this is easy. Kathleen: How did I wind up buying from him? Jason: Yeah. You wonder what's going on. Yeah, if it's somebody, I would recommend checking out Chris Marr if you haven't already. Kathleen: That's a good one. I'll put that link in the show notes. Then with digital marketing changing so quickly, and especially the field that you're in, it can be very hard to stay up to date on all the new developments. How do you personally stay educated? Jason: That's a tough one. I try to, because I toe the line between tech and marketing, there's a lot of noise. What I try to do is I try to curate a lot of what I see. For me, Twitter is my home away from home, if you will. I get educated through Twitter, and who I follow there, and really put together lists on my profile that are really targeted to specific people that are knowledgeable in the space. I'll go to Twitter first to just see what people are talking about, and things of that nature. If it comes up one, two, three times more than the first time that I see it, then I'm like, okay, let me see if this is something of interest. Then what I'll do is I'll sign up to specific newsletters. Some of the newsletters that I sign up to, I may only sign up to it for a month or two and the unsubscribe, but it'll get me the information that I really need at that given point in time. I really try to reduce the amount of noise and distraction, and so I kind of use that just in time learning strategy where, okay, Facebook's changing something in their ad algorithm or whatever, now while I don't do that, my clients do, so I want to be up to date on what they're doing, at least knowledgeable to have some sort of conversation if they ask me a question. I'll go check out that for a little while. I'll talk to some people that I know in the industry, say, "Hey, what's going on over here? Is this something I should pay attention to, or is this just noise?" It's really curated, and it's more outreach for me than letting it all come to me in a flood. Otherwise, I would never get any work done. Kathleen: Yeah. I hear that. Who are your top, let's say three favorite people to follow on Twitter? Jason: Well, that's tough. For business and products, I would say Justin Jackson is probably, he's always interesting to follow because he learns out loud. He tries things. He owns a product business himself, and he's been in the product game for a long, long time, and he knows about that space. In the online world for me, business wise, as far as product goes, Justin Jackson. Chris Marr I follow. He shares a lot of interesting content, marketing links, and strategies, and that sort of thing. I follow him. Then one that I've always followed for a long, long time, probably since day one of me signing up to Twitter, is Paul Jarvis. I've tried to model my business after what he does, which is I'm small potatoes compared to what he's able to do at this point. He's always remained small, and he's built his business designed around him and his lifestyle. That's how I've built my business over the past nine years, is around the life that I want to live, and so if I start going down the rabbit hole of thinking of scaling up, and hiring, and agencies, and growing in that world, while it's attractive, it's not actually what my long term game is. Seeing Paul saying, "Hey, I'm going offline for a couple of months. I'll see you in December." Whatever it is that he does, it's like, oh yeah, that's why I do what I do. He's kind of almost like a grounding rod for me. Kathleen: That's interesting. I'll have to check him out. Any particular newsletters? You mentioned that you subscribe to a few newsletters. Are there any that have stood the test of time, that you haven't unsubscribed from, that you really love? Jason: Val's is one. Kathleen: Yeah, Val's great. Jason: Yeah. She's one. Another one that I really like is Margot, what's her last name? (Margot Aaron) She's a straight shooter. She kind of pokes, she's a marketer herself, she's a copywriter, but she pokes fun at marketing. She's one that I follow because it's like, hey, here's a headline that you're supposed to read, and here's a button that you're supposed to click, but if you don't really want to, you don't have to. It's kind of like allows me to inject my own personal brand into what I do. Because as a business owner, I know that my customers come to me, they could get what I do by going to anybody that does a similar thing, but they come to me and they become a customer of mine because there's something that I'm putting out there that they jibe with. My personality comes through in a lot of what I do, my website and all that. I wear being a New Yorker on my sleeve. I'm a pretty straight shooter too. I try to over communicate in some respects with my clients. They sort of appreciate that, and so I call my clients on certain things, I wrangle them in when they need to be wrangled in, and I challenge them. That is what most of my clients have said that that's why they stay on with me, is because I don't just do what they ask me to do. I help them along the way. Kathleen: Yeah. That's great. If you remember Margot's last name, let me know, because I'll put that link in the show notes as well. Jason: Will do. Definitely. You Know What To Do Next Kathleen: Sounds like a really good one. Well if you're listening and you like what you heard or learned something new, of course I always love it when you leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts. If you know somebody else doing kick-ass inbound marketing work, tweet me @workmommywork, because they could be my next interview. Thank you so much Jason. This was really interesting. Jason: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.  

Driving for Dollars Bad, Driving For Dumpsters Good (HA 004) Transcript: Steven:                                Steve and Jill here. Jill:                                          Hi. Steven:                                Welcome to the House Academy Show, entertaining real estate investment talk. I'm Steven Jack Butala. Jill:                                          And I'm Jill DeWit, broadcasting from sunny Southern California. Steven:                                Today, we talk about how driving for dollars is bad, but driving for dumpsters is good. Jill:                                          What? Isn't that funny? It sounds really confusing, but hopefully you get it. And I'm going to do my best. I'm going to say it right now, I promise you, I will try to hold down my personal feelings about the whole driving for dollars. I've even seen "D for D", and then "D for" and then dollar signs. I've seen people try to make cute little things like that online. However cute you think it is, it's just not necessarily the best use of your time and we will explain. Steven:                                Here's a spoiler alert. Jill and I are incredibly anti driving for dollars. It's a waste of time. Jill:                                          Yes. Steven:                                You're below it. If you do it, it's way below you. Jill:                                          Yeah. Steven:                                You are way above it. In the time that you spend one day driving for dollars, you can send 10,000 offers out, blind offers out to owners. Jill:                                          And then wait for the phone to ring. Steven:                                And buy some houses. Jill will explain in a minute. Jill:                                          You just did. Steven:                                She gets angry. Steven:                                Before we get into it, let's take a question posted by one of our members on the houseacademy.com online community. It's free. Jill:                                          Okay, Jefferson asked, "Do you apply the same methodology for pricing SFRs in House Academy as you do for land?" This is good for price, okay, got it. Steven:                                You want to explain it? Jill:                                          Yeah, go for it. Steven:                                No, you go. You want to do it? Jill:                                          No, you do it. That's on your side of the sheet. Steven:                                So, in both cases, when you're pricing land, it's usually by county and not by zip code, the way that we price houses. And with land, we price it per acre and we're usually shooting like a shotgun. It's a shotgun approach. Steven:                                With houses, it's a very specific rifle approach. As I've said a few times on the show already, pit zip codes against each other, choose the best ones, and then we take algorithms from Zillow, Trulia, and all the rest of them, line them up against the data in DataTree, in preparation to send the offer campaign out. And then we price each asset individually. We never, ever send a mailer out that says, "we're interested in buying your house." Jill:                                          Right. Steven:                                "Give us a call." Jill:                                          Exactly. Steven:                                That's how you can destroy your career in two weeks that way. You want to send them an offer that says, "we're interested in buying your house in ten days for 321,000 dollars... 321,427.77". And the question is, how do you get to that number? You input algorithms, you choose how much margin you want. Let's say you want to make 40,000 to 50,000 dollars selling the house, and you send the offer out that way. And you do it up to 10,000, 20,000. We have members who send 50,000 units out at a time. Jill:                                          That's crazy. Steven:                                So, to answer your question directly, is the methodology the same? The end result, when they open the mail, is the same. You're trying to evoke that decision when they open the mail. Is the methodology to get there the same? No, it's a little bit more sophisticated with land. But I will have to say, with houses, it's easier. Jill:                                          I think it is easier, yeah. Steven:                                And less time consuming. Jill:                                          Yeah, you really have with houses, the numbers are there. The numbers are the numbers are the numbers. There's no, "I think this area is going for this price per acre, and I think over here is this price per acre, I'm trying to find consistency." That's land. Houses is like, "nope, we know exactly how it's valued here, how it's valued there, okay, the average is that, done." It's so much easier and then, like you just said, all you're doing is backing out what you want to make out of it. And then the only thing you want to do is, we're fans of, hey, let's not get greedy, everybody. Because the less greedy you are, the better response you're going to be, the more deals you're going to do, and quickly, and move on. Steven:                                Exactly. Jill:                                          Thank you. Steven:                                Today's topic: driving for dollars is bad, driving for dumpsters is good. This is why you're listening. Steven:                                Let's define driving for dollars, without giving each other a heart attack. Jill:                                          I have 10 business cards. My goal today, here I go. [crosstalk 00:04:37] I have 10 business cards, I've got a nice, new, crisp shirt on. I got a full tank of gas. I got my lunch next to me. Steven:                                Oh, Jill. Jill:                                          I'm sorry. I have a thing about this, obviously. Steven:                                Oh, man. Jill:                                          And you know what? I know this subdivision, I know it well. I know what I can do with that subdivision, and I'm going to get as many as I can until I find a house. What happens? My goal is after eight hours, or ten hours, or until somebody calls the cops... by the way, I'm surprised that doesn't come up more often. Steven:                                Yeah. Jill:                                          When you really think about it. Steven:                                Plus, who's home during the day? Jill:                                          Exactly, that's another one, too. Steven:                                And what type of asset are you looking for while you're driving around? Jill:                                          I never thought about that. Who's even home? What are they going to do to you when you're knocking on the door? It's just not a good scenario. And your goal is to find somebody and hope that they're thinking about selling their house. Maybe you're looking for the junky ones, thinking that's going to have the best- Steven:                                That's the problem. That's the real tragedy in this. Jill:                                          I know, and that may be the real problem properties. Maybe walk up to the real junky one and by the way, there are squatters, and they're- Steven:                                Okay, you're getting way off topic here. Jill:                                          Sorry, sorry. Steven:                                There's all kinds of things that can happen. Jill:                                          Okay. Steven:                                But here's the problem with driving for dollars: it's inefficient. It's time inefficient, it's dollars inefficient. Jill:                                          Yeah. Steven:                                And what you're really doing is driving around, looking for a dumpy, boarded up house in probably a neighborhood you shouldn't have chosen in the first place. Jill:                                          Good point. Steven:                                You're not using data. You're using not brain, you're using brawn. And it's terribly, terribly inefficient. Here's the real tragedy: it works. Driving for dollars works the same way that pulling on a slot machine handle 4,200 times eventually will work. Jill:                                          It's true. Steven:                                And so, it gives you the sense of tiny, little bit of hope. Jill:                                          True. Steven:                                What I'll call "false hope." Jill:                                          Right. Steven:                                When you could be, never leave your desk and through the magic of mail merge and offers to owners and a bunch of other tools that we provide, that you don't even necessarily need to use. You don't need to use our tools or be in our group to benefit from this. Jill:                                          There's another way to do it. Steven:                                Do a mail merge, send out a couple thousand offers, if you want to lick stamps, do it. I'm not a big fan of that. I don't think it makes financial sense, I know it doesn't. But, if you're just starting out and that's what makes sense to you, you're going to get a good response. Jill:                                          Yep. Steven:                                And the person that you find that either answers that door while you're driving for dollars or the person that owns a dumpy house in a different state that's falling down, they might respond to you. But now what you're buying is a dumpy house. And so, the reason that people sell their houses for less than they're actually worth, that minute and in that condition, is because they just had a life change and you're solving a problem for them. Jill:                                          Right. Steven:                                Maybe somebody passed away, maybe somebody went to college. Maybe they just hate real estate agents with a passion and they just want to deal with an owner. All those things happen to us regularly, all of them. So it's not the condition of the asset that you should focus on. Forget about the house, forget it. For the rest of your career, buying and selling houses, forget about the actual asset. That's way, way, way secondary. Jill:                                          Right. Steven:                                The price is what matters, and how efficiently you can get somebody who owns a property to sign it and send it back to you. Jill:                                          Awesome. Ding, ding. Now let's explain the dumpsters. Steven:                                Yes. Jill:                                          Now, what's funny is we talked about this because driving for dollars for finding the asset, not good, obviously. Driving for dumpsters is good, a great way for buyers. Here's why: you've done it all the right way, just like we've talked about and Steven described. You have this asset now that is worth 50,000 dollars, or whatever number you went in on, less than what it's worth. Who are you going to sell it to? You're going to sell it to the guy that's right down the street, across the street, one block over, who's got a dumpster in the yard and has already got the crew over here and he would love to get that phone call or message or email from you. Steven:                                Yeah, he's already renovating a project or- Jill:                                          He's got the team. Steven:                                Some are already all in place. Jill:                                          He knows the area. Steven:                                You think he's going to want to do another one two blocks away? Heck yeah. Jill:                                          Yep. Steven:                                And from not an agent, and not from the MLS, and from somebody who's just regular people like us and regular people like you. Jill:                                          Yep. Steven:                                That's how you do it. That's how we do it. Jill:                                          You better believe it. It's the best thing. Steven:                                It's not the only way, but that coupled with some other things, a well strategically sent mailer, it's going to work. It does work. Very, very predictable numbers for us constantly. Jill:                                          Right. Steven:                                That's why we're in front of the camera right now. Jill:                                          Exactly. Steven:                                So, I'm sorry to say, driving for dollars, as appealing as it may seem, here's the thing: driving for dollars is seemingly free. Sending mail out is not free, there's stamps involved. That's why people get so sidetracked. Walking into a casino is free, they don't charge you at the door. Jill:                                          Yep. Steven:                                Pulling that handle's a little bit expensive, but let's see what happens. Jill:                                          Yep. Hey, stay tuned, too. In other episodes, we're going to talk about more of our transactions. In case you don't know, we have close to 16,000 completed transactions combined, more him, under our belts. Yeah, a lot of them are land, but let me tell you, a lot of them are houses, too, and other types of properties. Even commercial properties, commercial land, all kinds of things that we've done. So that's why we're here. This week has been just kind of about what's possible and who we are and just some things to share with you now. But as this show progresses, we're going to get into some real numbers and share some transactions. Steven:                                The actual deals. Jill:                                          And gosh, tell you things that we did wrong and things we've learned and things that went great. So we'll get you there. Steven:                                Exactly. Join us next time for the episode called, "What is Equitable Title?" Jill:                                          And we answer your questions posted on our online community, houseacademy.com. It's free. Steven:                                You are not alone in your real estate ambition. Jill:                                          I'm trying to remember when we started House Academy. What did we share so people knew- Steven:                                You mean Land Academy? Jill:                                          Yeah, Land Academy, excuse me. This is not our first podcast. You know what's so funny? We're on show 1,000 over there, I don't remember show zero over there. Steven:                                Episode zero in Land Academy was called, "Everybody Thinks I'm a Drug Dealer." And I was going to repeat that [crosstalk 00:11:16] Jill and I have this, "our friends think we're drug dealers." Jill:                                          Yeah, there's a little bit of that. Steven:                                We have too much time on our hands, there's lots of money coming in, we have good sports cars and stuff. There's obviously nothing like that going on. I filed our tax returns on time and there's never been any issues. But we do live that kind of lifestyle, where we have control of our time and the cars we drive are too fast. Jill:                                          Right. Well, you know what's interesting in this world? Sometimes we make it look easy, but there's a lot to it. That's why we're doing this show and that's why we have our online community. We have weekly member calls, we do all kinds of things to support you and help you because there's a lot of moving pieces, but we can get you there. Jill:                                          Wherever you're watching or wherever you are listening, please subscribe and rate us there. Steven and Jill:                   We are Steve and Jill. Steven:                                Information- Jill:                                          And inspiration- Steven:                                To buy undervalued property.  

The Achieve Wealth Podcast Host: James Guest: Ben Label Title : Underwriting Phoenix with Ben Leybovich   James:  Hey, welcome audience to Achieve Wealth Podcast. This is where we look at operators around the countries and learn from them. And I really appreciate you being here just because you have thousand and one things to do somewhere else. But listening to us or listening to me on this podcast gives me great pleasure to be with you all. So today I have a very nice guest and I would say a well-known guest in the bigger pockets and outside of bigger pockets community as well. Today we have Ben Label, which is from Phoenix; hey, Ben, thanks for coming.   Ben: How are you? It's a pleasure to be with you. I do a lot of these podcasts, but I have fun every time.   James: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, we want to go a bit more into detail, so I'm sure you've gone into a great line in other podcasts as well, but there are a few things that we look for. I mean, I'm an operator. We would like to go into a lot more details, into the numbers and the strategies and all that just because we want to learn and my audience want to learn and we listen to podcasts to learn, right? Because everybody's spending the time to listen to each one of those podcasts and there are thousands of those out there but I think it's important that we learn from each other. Right? So, Ben has been almost investing in multifamily residential real estate for over a decade and he has been on numerous times featured in Bigger Pockets Podcast. I've been following him since the very early days when I started in single family and I've learned a lot of things from Bigger Pockets.   He has been featured on like three different episodes in Bigger Pockets, he is also the creator of Cashflow of Freedom University and author of House Hacking. He and his partner, Sam Grooms, has been a buying deals in Phoenix market. I think they close on 98 units and recently you close on 130 units, is that right? Ben: 117, it's 117, last week we purchased.   James: 117. Okay. So why don't you tell us about yourself to our audience on aspects that I've missed out about introducing you?   Ben: Well, thank you again for inviting me, I appreciate it; I like doing these things. Who doesn't like to talk about themselves, especially when you were so good-looking like me and I guess most often do, it's fantastic, right? Sam is like, not showing up for this, he knows how it's going to go. I don't know, my story has been very kind of public, through Bigger Pockets and elsewhere. Folks, you know, my website, justaskBenwhy.com, my stories are all over that website.   I basically was informed that I have a medical condition called multiple sclerosis when I was in college. I'm a professional fiddle player, but I wasn't able to do that because it's kind of hard to do that when your hands don't work like they're supposed to. So it was a kind of a long path toward discovering some way of making money that wasn't reliant upon my physiology to the extent that music would have been. And I kind of,  through zigging and zagging through this rationale, I ended up eventually in real estate. I bought a few single families first, figured out that I didn't like it, went onto small multifamily, syndicate larger apartments today, with my partner Sam Grooms in Phoenix. And that's kind of my story.   James: Yeah. Hey, thanks Ben. So I remember you, were in Ohio and you moved to Phoenix, what is the reason for that transition?   Ben: Well, there are many reasons. Like everything in life, I think there are synergies that need to take place in order for things to really work and gel and work properly. For one thing, I'm 43 years old, I was 40 years old at the time we relocated. My mentor, who is no longer with me, once upon a time told me, whatever you're going to do, do it by the age of 40. If you don't do it by the age of 40, you're not going to do it in your life. It's a lot easier to keep the ball rolling that's already going than it is to start the ball rolling at the age of 40, midlife basically.   So that was one kind of driving force is that I felt like Ohio wasn't the place where I want it to be but you know, the driving force for that timing happening the way that it did was really, I was cognizant of my age and I just wanted to offer myself and my family a good opportunity, [05:42inaudible] start in a better world. That's one thing.   The second thing is I wanted better weather, I wanted blue skies, palm trees; I wanted low property taxes, I wanted a good business environment, I wanted a lot of growth. If I never see snow in my life is going to be too soon, I'm completely done with snow. I wanted educational opportunities for my children that I simply wasn't able to attain where we were in Ohio. All of those things, just kind of synergize together and we moved so far, everything's working out absolutely beautifully. My kids are having fabulous educational opportunities and my wife has been a very successful Real estate agent; she makes a lot of money. I am syndicating buildings that it's not something I could do in Ohio just because I wouldn't allow myself when we talk about the underwriting, we can touch on why I wouldn't do it in Ohio or Midwest in general. And then, my job as a function of sitting down by my pool and working my way through some spreadsheets and making some offers and my life is a beautiful thing right now. So that's how and why we ended up in Phoenix.   James: Yeah. Let's talk about markets in a short while. So once you moved to Phoenix, I think you met Sam here and you guys started a partnership, right? So my first question is, why do you want to partner up? And second is, how did you choose the partner or how did you choose Sam and what are the skills that you guys see that was complimenting?   Ben: Sure. Well, first of all, the reason I wanted to be in Phoenix is because I want to be in a growth market. We buy only in Phoenix because it is a very, very serious growth market and I happen to be very bullish on it and see quite a bit of runway still. Now, for instance, we took a look at Texas because Texas, everybody likes Texas, but Texas was a market that started recovering like 12 years ago so it is a very seasoned recovery at this point. There are other places, Phoenix among them that is a younger cycle still. So I feel because of that and a lot of other, be it income growth, rent growth, occupancies, a lot of other metrics are just looking better to me in Phoenix than in a lot of other markets so that's why in Phoenix.   The way we met is I was putting a deal together that didn't materialize, it fell apart, but Sam was going to be one of the investors as a limited partner in that deal. It was also a red D and after the fact, after the thing fell apart. Well, actually before the thing fell apart, he called my attention to the fact that I had a mistake in my underwriting. It wasn't a very serious mistake, but it was an oversight on my part and like nobody finds mistakes in my underwriting. So I'm like, who the hell is this guy and how is it that you know? So I started looking into him and the thing about him was he took the offering memorandum and he milked the spreadsheets to reverse engineer my offering memorandum and he found an inconsistency that I had missed. And I was just like, wow! So we had lunch and when that deal didn't materialize, the two of us just kind of got together.   He's a CPA with SCC reporting background, so he obviously has a lot of strengths that are complementary and scalable, complementary to mine. He didn't have operational experience, but he had a lot of bookkeeping and accounting and paperwork wise, corporate level, institutional level experience. And he's obviously a very strong underwriter because spreadsheets are like his bloodline. So that worked and that's why it worked. And the main reason that works, because I like him a lot and I trust him. I don't have to worry about him stabbing you in the back. I would be amazed that ever happened and I don't believe it, he's just a good person. So that's how that worked and that's why we're in Phoenix, kind of the high level, tips of the trees; we like the market and that's why we're together because we have a very complimentary skill set. James: Good. Good. So let's go down into a little more details into the deals that you guys do. So you have told me why Phoenix. So at a high level, Phoenix did go through a huge upswing and the downswing when on the previous market cycle of market correction in 2008, so aren't you worried about that? [10:41inaudible] I think you froze.   Ben: Yeah, we froze up a little.   James: Okay, go ahead. Yeah, I can edit that out. So did you hear my question?   Ben:  You're freezing up again. Yeah.   James: Okay. So nothing now it's good. So my question is, Phoenix did go through a huge downturn, it was a huge swing in 2008 so aren't you worried about Phoenix going through that again?   Ben: You're freezing up, James. Breaking up real bad.   James:  I'm not sure what's happening. Is it good?   Ben: It's good now.   James: Okay. Let's see.   Ben: No, freezing up again.  Wow!   James: Really?   Ben: Okay, you're back now.  Okay, let's try it again.   James: So let's go into the details of the market. Phoenix went through a huge downturn during the last 2008 crash, the real estate and the economy crashed so aren't you worried about that?   Ben: No because Phoenix today is a different market from Phoenix 10 years ago. So Phoenix 10 years ago was very heavily reliant on construction. A lot of the GDP in the state and Phoenix, in particular, was all about construction. Construction is like 10% of our economy today. We have a very diversified economy, meaning; tech, banking, health-care are the three kinds of big industries, they're very well diversified. So additionally, the population growth that we experienced in Phoenix prior to the last cycle was all driven by a snowbird housing. There was a lot of housing being built for people from the Midwest, from Canada. Well, what happens when the economy crashes is these people lose nothing but just dropping the bag and making themselves scarce so we had a lot of foreclosures because of that. The dynamics are completely different now because of the population growth, while we still have people coming in, snowbirds, but we have a lot more true retirement. So this isn't a second home, it's actually the first home for a lot of people that are relocating here. We also still have snowbirds, but by and large, our population growth is driven by economic growth. We're located in a place where you have California over here, Texas over there and Mexico over here, top 20 economies in the world and we're within a day's drive so it's a good place to be in terms of commerce and trade and all of that. And then there are little things like, listen, 20 years ago the HVAC units couldn't even keep up with 115-degree weather and today it's just really a non-issue at all can so life in Phoenix has become more comfortable.   The infrastructure is very new because the whole place is new. The property taxes are extremely low as compared to the Midwest or Texas. The regulatory environment is very friendly to business and as California experiences what it experiences, we are certainly benefiting with x coming out of California and we are one of the places that they're going, Seattle being another one, Texas being another one, but they're definitely coming here. So the economy is very much more diversified than it was prior to the last crash. So that's kind of the big picture view of why would answer no, I'm not, I mean, I'm always concerned. People ask me, what are you afraid of? I'm afraid of everything but you have to be logical about how you kind of respond to things and look at facts. And the facts are that nationwide, last I read, average apartment rent stands at $1,470 per month; in Phoenix, we're at 1070. Maricopa county, which encompasses all of Phoenix and surrounding MSA is the number one growth county in the entire country.   Phoenix is the number two growth city in the entire country. We now have a population of 5 million so we're number five largest city in the country. And with the proper regulatory environment, the low taxes on property, all of those things, insurance costs are lower because we don't have hurricanes, we don't have fires, we don't have all the nonsense right? We don't have the freezing pipes in the middle of the winter, we don't have any of that stuff so there's a lot of positives. So the question people are asking is, hey, here's this growth market. Our rent growth in 2018 clipped at 8.2 %.   James: Wow! That's huge.   Ben: Well that's because we're 1070 and nationwide, you're at 1470. There's a 25% delta in the highest growth market in the country so you are asking yourself, why? Basically, you're saying, why would an average rent in like Cincinnati, Ohio cost more than it does in Phoenix, which has the good weather, all the growth and all of the income growth and all of the job growth and everything and the population growth? So that's why the investors are asking themselves, can Phoenix organically catch up to the national averages? Like forget surpassing the average, can we catch up to the national?   And if you say yes, it's because you see what's happening economically. If you say yes, then if you deploy your capital at five cap and you just sit on it until that process kind of happens on your basis, you're at six and a half gap three or four years later without having to do any value-ads. So this is why the cap rates are so compressed in Phoenix is because people are just making a play on the fact that Phoenix has undervalued. For the type of economic prowess that is currently taking place in Phoenix, it's just undervalued; rents are undervalued, property is expensive relative to the rents. But if you consider the prospects of rents going up, if you look at Marcus and Millichap, they're predicting this year at 6.2%; if you look at Colliers, they are over 7% so again, depending on who you look at. I think we're going to be closer to 7% just because we have such delta and because of what I am personally experiencing in this environment.   We just have a lot of upside, the ceiling is very high. Juxtapose this against Austin, which is stalling out at this point, it is a very seasoned market. The rent growth is stalling out, the vacancies are taking up, so now it's Texas, so can it continue being Texas for the next five years? For all I know, yes, but given the choice to be in a younger cycle such as Phoenix or to be in a seasoned cycle, but in a very strong location, historically that's proven itself, I don't know, that's where people kind of make their bed, I guess and make their beds. I like Phoenix, I'm bullish on Phoenix and I'm not even looking to any place else because if you can be in Phoenix, why would you look at anything else?   James: Yeah, that's exactly my point as well. I'm in Texas and I'd rather invest in my backyard even though it's competitive over here. But in your backyard, you have a lot of control. You can go and drive by and see it compared to somewhere else. I mean, real estate is so localized, it's important for you to know your own back yard. So coming back to the sub-market, how do you choose the sub-market, is there a specific preferring for sub-market compared to the deals itself?   Ben: I don't really worry about sub-markets because I don't buy buildings, I buy stories. So if there's a good story for a specific building, because all it is is that you are looking for a delta, the money is always in the delta. So if you can purchase the building here, but the story suggests that the building,  the future valuation is going to be recognized here, then that's the delta I am paying for, that's what I'm buying. I'm not actually buying the cash flow, I'm not a cash flow investor when I syndicate these things. Cash-flow is there as a pathway to generating wealth and generating equity but that's it. There are not cash flow investments because you can't drive the IRR on cash flow, it's discounted too much over time and you need the appreciation. The appreciation is in Delta and the delta is in the story.   So we bought a Kenyan 35 and that's half a mile away from a university, a Grand Canyon University that grew from 2000 students to 20,000 students in 10 years. Received public status Accreditation, is investing $1 billion into their campus, gentrifying everything around them, of course, as usually happens with the universities when they grow and they're going to be at 30,000 students within next five years. So I'm buying a building half a mile away, that's my story there. I buy another one over here that is in the middle of a huge redevelopment and rejuvenation by the city. The city is deploying a lot of capital. There's a lot of class A infrastructure coming in, both in terms of retail and office space and everything else. So I buy this class C building, it's surrounded by all this class A stuff. It's uniquely positioned to be able to compete with class A on finishing textures when I'm done remodeling, but at a much lower basis. So my rents don't have to be anywhere near where the class A rents are and so, it's a story, it's always a story.   What is happening economically that is going to give my building desirability that is uncommon at the basis that I will be at. So the sub-market itself doesn't really, I mean, yeah, I guess there are places you wouldn't want to go, but we wouldn't look in those places because nothing is happening in those places. The whole point of where we want to buy buildings is because things, good things are happening in that location, that's why we want to buy a building there, especially in this season cycle.   James: Yeah. So what you're saying is there are places that you wouldn't even look at it, right? It's basically a sniff test. Yeah, this area, I'm not looking at it.   Ben: Well, there's area and there's a building. I mean, I get these emails, 100 a week and the vast majority of them go into the trash before they're even opened. And of those open, vast majority go into the trash and that's got to do with age, quality, construction features because you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. You can put a gold plated toilette in a pig, it's still a pig. Because of what it is, where it is, it's gonna attract the audience that it's going to attract, there's nothing you can do with it and I don't want those buildings like that.   I want the building, which inherently the bones of it are just something that's not coming through in a recognizable way, shape, and form for the marketplace. But if I put some money and energy into this asset, I can bring back what it already is. I'm not trying to take a pig and make it into a unicorn. I'm trying to make a unicorn that's been completely messed up and it looks like a pig, but it's a unicorn, it's not a pig. I just have to re-sculpt it, redo it, I have to clean it up, improve and then the market will see it for what it is, which is a unicorn. That's what I want and that's a function of both location and the asset itself.   James: Yeah, I mean, so I think what you're describing is what I would describe as building upside. So I look for deals where I know today I can go and just improve on it; either by capital or reducing expenses and just realize that upside that has been hidden inside that building and that's a lot of it in multifamily, right? And it just you're to find that kind of deals. It's hard to find that kind of deal, but that is the real deal, right? Compared to buy [24:23inaudible]    Ben: Right. Then it's a needle in a haystack. In fact, I mean, if you are not doubling, almost practically doubling your NOI in the first three years, you are not buying the right kind of building because that's what it takes in my experience is almost doubling the NOI in three years.   James: Yup. So let's go to underwriting. So where are you getting your deals, are you getting from brokers?   Ben: Brokers; they're off-market but they're brought to me by brokers. James:  So why do they come to you?   Ben: Because I close.   James:  Okay. No, there must be, I mean brokers do a lot of off-market but they look for qualified buyers, right? So especially people who have done deals with them so maybe...   Ben: Right, so that's why, and I mean, even if I didn't do a deal with this broker---I don't know, I don't want to drop names because I don't want to but the national brokers, one of them reached out to me yesterday because even before we closed last week on the last one, somehow everybody already knows that we're going to close on it. And so these guys started coming out of the woodwork. Well, this schmuck emails me, he calls me twice in a row, he says, Oh yeah, I got an off-market property for you. I said, okay, go ahead and email me the nondisclosure agreement, I will sign it and email me the stuff. Well, he emails this property to me; well another broker already showed it to me two months ago, not requiring any kind of nondisclosure.   It was a pig; it was the very thing that we're describing, the 'don't do'. It's the wrong shape, it's the wrong footprint, it's the wrong mechanical layout, it's the wrong age, it's the wrong location; It's the wrong everything. And these guys call you and they say, well, you know, you can get it for 75 per door. While I'm like, I would rather pay a hundred a door but get quality, that's going to be worth 180 when I'm done with it, rather than paying 75 per door because whatever money I put into it, it's still going to be worth 75,000 per door when I'm done because the market has decided this is a pig. It's worth 75 per door, that's it. There's nothing you're going to do to move that hurdle and so you get a lot of that.   But you also get some serious brokers. Like the biggest brokers in Phoenix is not national brokers, they are local, but they're the biggest by volume. They do the most deals in the apartment space and those guys bring me deals, they're deals, and they're not the only ones, other people do as well. We've tried to go after some deals with other brokers, we came really close. We weren't able to, for one reason or another, to execute those deals, somebody else got it or whatever. But sometimes brokers have deals and they're off-market deals. The question of, what's it gonna take to get those deals? I just don't have an answer. It's all about relationships and I'm going to have to convince somebody that you are worth having a conversation with and that you have a good chance of executing. Obviously, it gets easier immediately after the first deal closes, immediately.   James:  Just because of the credibility.  Let's say today a broker sends you an OM, right? So some random broker and he said it's a deal and you know it's not a pick, right? So, you know there's something more I need to do my secondary inspection here or my secondary underwriting here, right? So how would you go about underwriting the deal? Ben: Well, the first and most important thing in the underwriting process is to place after renovated rents because if you mess that up, everything else just doesn't matter. Where most of the money is, is knowing down to the dollar and the cents where those rents are going to be after you are done fixing the community and fixing the unit. So that's the first thing I do is like if it's well located, it's the correct year, it's the correct HVAC, it's the correct roof, it's the correct XYZ, which I can tell just by looking at this thing, it's in the correct sub-market, where I know I would want to be, the next step in the process is just to put it through the underwriting that begins with placing rent, understanding what the rents are going to be.   James: So how do you place rents? I mean, how do you do the rent comps?   Ben: So, for me, if a broker is sending me something like this, what is accompanying it is some kind of Yardi report or metrics or something; some kind of report on the sub-market, which is going to give me the comps. Now those reports aren't correct, they're probably within 20% margin correct. We are looking in the market that's trending seven, 8% per year, obviously, those metrics will be off. First of all, I know what the rents are in Phoenix, MSA for the class of asset I want to buy in, in the kind of location I want to buy in. To validate myself, I then look at that report. Now, the underwriting, for the most part, is an automated process because we kind of know what the OPEX is. There's really very little magic to how much it costs to run these buildings.   There are a lot of reports that study and track by the state, by the locality, by the city, what the operating costs are running and so we underwrite to the averages and we have our own trailing numbers, which we use in the underwriting. So we do massage those for every deal, depending on the size and the complexity of the mechanical and things like that. The R&M is going to vary and certain services are going to be required here they're not required there, contract services, things like that. But by and large, I know that on the operating side, I'm going to be somewhere between $4,200 per door and $4,600 per door. $4,600 per door is on a smaller asset, maybe 100, maybe 95; $4,200 per door is 120, 140 is going to tick up because now I need more payroll. And so you know what those dynamics look like. We can kind of, we're both, Sam and I, are starting with numbers filled in because we know where those ranges are and this is just for the first path, right? First time through. Now, if the first time through, I mean, like it takes me about...   James: Let me quickly interrupt you. So how many percents of operational income is that? [32:06 crosstalk] do you look at percentages as well?   Ben: Yeah, that's the beauty of Phoenix. You're talking about being under 40% on a stabilized basis.   James: Under 40? That's really good.   Ben: Between 35 and 40%. Well, this is the thing about Phoenix. I have to tell you; like I studied the operating costs all over the nation, I will tell you that in Texas it's over $6,000 per door because the property taxes are so high. In Cincinnati, Ohio, it's over $6,000 per door. Over there, it's for a different reason; it's all hilly, the buildings are all older, there are boilers involved, there are flat roofs involved, pipes freeze all the time and building sit at the bottom of where water flows and you just got RNM and contract nightmare.   In Phoenix, because property taxes are so low because the insurance is so low and because frankly a lot of things are easier in Phoenix because of the weather, it never snows, such things, the operating costs, If you look at the national reports that indicate per city, you will see that Phoenix is in the mid $4,000 per door. Now, as a relationship to the rent though, that's very low because even though Phoenix is lower than the national average, still when you're running at $4,500 plus or minus like we just purchased last week. So my underwriting for that asset is right around 45 $4,600 per door on the OPEX. But dude, we're running, let me calculate, we're running, which is 98 units at about $34,000 per month.   James: That's awesome.   Ben: $4,000 per month divided by 98 times 12. Yeah, 4163, under $4,200 per door, that's OPEX. Now obviously you're going to have cap acts that you are exchanging blinds fixed. It's not part of the scope is just part of the turn on each unit. But with my underwriting, 4,600, I really don't think we're going to need it. In fact, we can run a 117 unit on the same payroll that we run 98 unit. So theoretically that OPEX number, it should be closer to 4,000. So in terms of relationship to the top line, you've got very, very pleasant circumstance in Phoenix that you can't achieve in a lot of other places.   James: Yeah, I think your rent is high compared to the Texas market. I mean, forget about Austin, Austin is a different market, right? But if I look at my San Antonio deals, usually my expenses are 4,500 4,600 but my rents are also lower so I end up my expense ratios like almost 50%. But what you're describing to me in Phoenix, looks like mobile home parks expense ratio because I know there are mobile home parks expense ratios like around 35 to 40%. So if you can run at 40% that's a really good market because your income is high and your expenses are low.   Ben: I'm going to look at it right now.   James: Okay. That's really good numbers in terms of percentage relationship.   Ben: Yeah. So in the first year, I'm projecting 49%; second year, 39%; in the third year, 35%; and then it ticks up a little bit because I'm using a little more O&M as my remodel gets seasoned and it gets older, a little more money for turns, a little more money for O&M and those kinds of things. So, but yeah, we're staying underneath 40%.   James: That's very interesting. So is that what you're consistently seeing even on the broker O&Ms? Ben: The broker O&Ms are going to be even lower. The broker O&Ms on deals like this, come with like $3,900 of operating costs; 38, 39, which is unrealistic. If you go to the bank, trying to get financing on that, it's not possible. So for the bankers, you have to show underwriting in the mid four thousand, you just do. But I have to say that in Texas if you are showing 45, $4,600 per door, that's really good. [36:47inaudible] a lot higher than that.   James: Yeah. We have our own operation, we want to be integrated so we are able to run it much leaner.  And the question I have for you on the property taxes, how do you [37:05inaudible] property taxes in Phoenix? I mean do you have the same or do you increase a bait? Because I know in Texas   Ben: In Phoenix, there are regulations in place that were passed about three, four years ago. Whereby the municipality is not allowed to raise property taxes any more than 5% per year, this applies to the assessed value and the actual tax bill so it's regulation on the books. So the tax on the writing and Phoenix is the simplest thing ever because you don't have to guess, you don't have to take a basket of properties, you have to do nothing. You know you're not going to go up any more than 5% so in my underwriting I use 5% a year, which is the worst case scenario done. Now there are caveats if you are going to put another building on the property and trigger reassessment, that triggers all kinds of circus; we don't do that. I won't buy anything that requires me to move exterior walls, to do that kind of stuff.   James: So what are you saying is even though the property has changed, hand the maximum they can do is 5%, wow! It's awesome.   Ben: And this is what I'm telling you about the regulatory environment being conducive to doing business. They don't change the chase sales. And everybody says in Texas, oh, just buy the LLC, they will never know what you pay. They're not stupid, they're going to look at the loan. They're going to apply the LTV in reverse, they're gonna get what you paid and they're going to assess your taxes up to Wazoo. I mean, the glutens up there, it's laughable, it's hilarious. And Texas has always scared me because of that because I can't underwrite taxes. The same is true in the Midwest, the Indianapolis. I remember I'd paid an attorney, we were looking at a deal in Indianapolis. Well listen, it has in place property taxes of about $60,000 but if I were to follow the letter of the law, I was getting three times that much. Which obviously is going to penalize the building and obviously the broker wasn't showing that much increase.   So I paid an attorney to speak to an attorney. Even they can't tell you because yeah, they're not chasing sales, but they are going to take a basket of properties, like properties and like location, they're going to kind of synergize all of that data and they're going to increase everybody by the same amount. But who knows what kind of basket of properties it is, which properties make it into the basket, when were they sold? So the only thing you can do there is looking at trailing billings and back into the probable increases. But it's not scientific, over here, no more than 5%, boom. And so far that's exactly what has been 5% per year. James: That's awesome. I mean in Texas is just so crazy in terms of property taxes. You do not know what to underwrite. So I always underwrite to a hundred percent increase, just to be safe in terms of underwriting but it's also a problem because you can buy a deal, which is like 24 years, not changed hand and now you're at a hundred percent, which can be huge. And it's mismanaged expectations between buyer and seller because the seller is going to say, hey, this is what I'm running and buyer's going to say I've done completely different and it's just hard to do business, but that's very interesting on how they do it in Phoenix. So how do you underwrite like miscellaneous income in terms of after you take over?   Ben:  Well, the next step in the process. So once we put it through the underwriting and it looks good, Sam and I drive out to the property. We'll look at the property, we like it, we go home, we really dial in our underwriting; what do we think the rents are going to be? What do we think the expenses are going to be? If it still looks like it's a deal, the next thing that happens is we send it over to our property management company with 20,000 units under management and obviously all kinds of access to all kinds of trailing data that we don't have. So the ultimate decision on where the rents are going to be, where the OPEX is going to be, all old form of it that ultimately is all approved or okayed by them or adjusted whichever way they see fit.   The rubs, the utility income is a very simple proposition. I mean, I underwrite 90% recovery and sometimes we can do better, but I underwrite 90% recovery. Whether you do it, whatever methodology you use, a third-party or Rubs or whatever, RPM likes to use third party, but because of legal absolve, so to speak, they like to offset the risk in that way. And as of late, past few years, regulatorily, it has become more and more difficult but I shoot for 90% recovery of the properties, utility bills, and other income is just purely specific to the property. What I'll tell you on the other income is that when we're taking, I have to back into that conversation a little bit.   What different about Phoenix than it is about most other places including Texas, value-add means something very different here. Usually, when we do value-add, we're looking for a mismanaged department [quote-unquote]. Well, mismanaged usually manifest itself in vacancy. So a big part of our value-add is to put proper management infrastructure in place and to capitalize on that vacancy and to bring it from 12% 14% to 6% which is, according to the market, that's where you supposed to be, right? So you do what you gotta do to fill those units. The issue with Phoenix is that they can see, pretty well doesn't exist. It's such a high growth market and there's such a lack of demand of 800 to $1,000 units; there's just such a lag because you can't afford to build it. So there's such a lack of that demand that that asset class is basically full. Even like the most poorly run properties are operating at full occupancy.   James: So you're saying lack of supply, not lack of demand.   Ben: Yes, lack of supply, I'm sorry. There's a lack of demand and there's a lack of population growth, but there's a lack of supply. Specifically in that price 800 to 1200, because the basis of building it, will fall at $200-225 a square foot, you got to get higher rents than that. And so, for the huge section of the population that needs those 800 to 1200 rents, there is a lack of supply on that. So what is value-add? Well, value-add is $300 per door in this case. Well, let me walk you backward; we just closed on 117 units. The physical vacancy on an annualized basis in that sub-market is 2.6%. Now, can I underwrite that? No, I have to underwrite 6% plus economic vacancy.   But just speaking about the physical vacancy, I have to underwrite 6%. I am penalizing my underwrite because the seller is operating at 2.4. When we took over, there was zero vacancy. There's one down unit and zero vacancy.   James: What about the economy occupancy, how much do you underwrite that?   Ben:  I underwrite economic occupancy, 9%. Somewhere between nine and 10 but on this deal, I did 9% and so five to six of it is physical vacancy and three to four of it is, the rest of the economic vacancy. But what I'm saying is that if the building is operating at zero vacancy and the sub-market is operating a 2.6% vacancy and I am underwriting 6% vacancy, I am penalizing my underwriting 3.4% so I need the first amount of value-add just to compensate that so I can break even. And then I need a whole bunch more value-add so I can actually create the delta so we can create enough profit margin for the IRR to work. So what this ends up looking like as value-add in Phoenix is $300 per door.   James: How did you come up with $300 a door?   Ben: It's just what it takes, in order for me to back into the IRR to the partners that is going to be attractive for people to invest. What it seems to me, I need, and it seems to be across the board for every deal that we do, what it's requiring is $300 per door value-add. So we're buying these deals that have, talk about a unicorn, $300 per door on value-add; only because we don't have a vacancy.   In most places, like if you have physical vacancy of 10% that you can fill, then maybe you just throw some lipstick on the pig and make another $75 a door, paint the cabinets, do some resurface countertops, do something like that, get another $75 of value-add and you are good; your IRR works because there was vacancy in place that you are able to fill. We don't have any vacancy so we actually have to do the heavy lifting to recapture the loss to lease and to get the renovation bump and cumulatively what it's taking us is $300 per door. Anything less than that and we can't get the margins that we need.   James: So my understanding when you talk about $300 a door, I mean when I underwrite my deals, the $300 a door is basically just the rent but you are saying the $300...?   Ben: No, it's cumulative between LTL so about 175 of it. The reason the occupancies are zero is that obviously, the rents are too low.   James: Okay, got it.   Ben: You should never have zero occupancy. If you are staying with the market and you're pushing your rent, you should never have zero occupancy. So the fact that the occupancy is zero is because the rents are too low so on day one, we're walking in and we're raising rents at 150 to $175 on the renewals and the rest of it is a bump due to the renovation so cumulatively.   James: Okay, got it.   Ben: So you have their stated rent, then you have their actual rent roll, which there's a bunch of loss to lease between the rent roll that they're actually getting and their stated rent. Now we're coming in, we're saying no, no, our classic rent is going to be this right here. So now we're going from their LTL all the way to our classic brand. And then on top of it, we're saying, but after we remodel, there is another piece of it that gets tacked onto the end. Cumulatively, that entire process in Phoenix, MSA in Class C value-add property, in my experience, $300 per door plus or minus is what's required.   James: That's awesome. And what is the total IRR that you look at for?   Ben: I look to deliver to partners, something in the mid 14 to 15 if I hit 14% IRR on a 10 year hold and I always underwrite 10-year hold, I don't want to sit there for 10 years but especially because we're late in the cycle, I underwrite a 10 year hold. So on a five-year hold, it ends up somewhere around 17, 17 plus. And of course, if we can exit sooner, then those numbers get [49:52crosstalk]   James: So let's talk about once you close on the property, right? So yeah, you underwrite everything on the paper and it all looks good so now you close on the property, right? So now you have a task of pushing up that rent. So how do you go about pushing up that rent?   Ben: So I don't do it, my PM does it.   James: But you're going to hold the strategy to it, right? I mean, are you going to tell them how to write it?   Ben: Correct. So we had a meeting on the day after we closed at the property. We had a meeting, the meeting was the property manager that's on site, the regional and Sam and myself. And what we discussed is that because, in the next three months, there are only about three or four leases coming up for renewal each month on 117 unit property. Right now we don't have a classic rent. As leases come up, you can either stay in the unit as is and pay us our renovated pricing, but you're welcome to leave. And then we'll renovate the unit and somebody else will move in and pay the renovated pricing because the business plan calls for rent, so much renovated pricing to be entering to payroll each and every month. So because we don't have enough vacancy coming up, we're basically not renewing leases and we're not putting any in place. I mean, it's unreasonable to ask people to pay the rent as if the apartment has stainless steel and granite but I don't care if they leave, they're entitled to leave and they should leave. The fact of it is, is that they're probably not gonna find anything better to go anyhow. At the end of the day, as long as I'm getting the rent, I don't care if I remodeled it or not because as long as I'm getting my rent projections, I'm in good shape. But I am prepared for a certain number of people to be, I don't want to say forced out, but they're welcome to stay as long as they pay our rent.   James: Yeah. So you're renting is like 300 so there are two components to it. One is just a loss to lease even without renovation. And on top of it, there's a renovated you need so you can do two ways, right? One is you can just not renovate and just go halfway up there. But I think what you're saying is you write a business plan calling it.   Ben: We don't want to do that for one very specific reason. This has been the model over the past five years. The model is $4,500 of renovation buys you painted cabinets, refaced cabinets, resurface countertops, maybe upgraded appliances, not stainless steel, maybe black, some fixtures, some flooring, and some paint. That's what $4,500 buys you. We're spending $7,500 per door and that gets us, granite, it gets us 100 hung sinks, It gets us stainless steel appliances, it gets us nicer flooring, paint all the rest of that. So the reason we're doing that is not so much that we couldn't make our numbers work, it's driven by the cycle. We are late in the cycle and when the cycle changes, I want to have the best product in the sub-market at that price point.   When everybody starts taking on 'loss to lease' when everybody starts taking on concessions when everybody starts the race to the bottom, my thing is I'm paying for my staying power at that point, but I'm paying for it now, I'm doing the Rehab now. So we're accomplishing two things with that; number one obviously we're repositioning the property, we're repositioning the tenant base, we're creating a more manageable situation. And number two, the product that we ended up with three years down the road has a lot more staying power then another kind of product that wasn't as renovated.   James: Especially if you're going to fork out that much of money right now and make the deal work, you can always invest in that product right now as well.   Ben:  So these are syndicated deals so we collect the money up front. There's nothing worse than coming to your partners and saying, hey, we need $1,000 more. So we collect all the money up front and we deploy it right away and we re-positioned the property right away and 18 months down the road, we arrive at a situation where we start having an exit. Now our buyer may look very different 18 months down the road from the buyer three years from the buyer five years from the buyer seven years down the road. But we have a compelling story to tell at that point in time. We start working on that story right away, on day one. But yes, our renovations are good renovations; we replaced the cabinets, they're getting new kitchens, they're getting new bathrooms. These are seriously upgraded units when we're done with them. The pricing is phenomenal; we're getting stuff done for 7,500, $8,000 on the interior that other people are complaining costing them $13,000 to do and they're not wrong. It's one of the benefits of having a PM with 20,000 units on her mat and there's a pricing power that comes with that both in terms of subcontracting and in terms of materials, how they source their materials. We could work our IRR having deployed half the funds, just get lower rents but for less money, we could work it.  Then there's just the other piece of it, which is that three years from now when the market does cycle, potentially, what do I want to own at that point?   James:  You want to one of the best product   Ben: I want to own the best quality that people can buy for that amount of money.   James: Got It. Got It. So what do you do, I mean, we have a few more minutes to go, very quickly; what do you do in terms of asset management? Are there any systems that you put in to manage the assets?   Ben: Yes, we use IMS.   James: The IMS is on the investor side, I'm talking more about the property side. I'm looking at property performance.   Ben: They use Yardi. The PM uses Yardi and then we get reporting weekly from on site in terms of, it'll have things like to date collections, it'll have vacancies, it'll have remodeling information, like how many units were remodeled, how many units of pre-leased, how many units are leased, all that stuff. Vacancy; it'll have delinquency, it'll have a promise to pay all of that stuff. So it's a one-page report that kind of gives us a bird's eye view in the whole thing. And then once a month, at the end of the month, we get a packet this thick. I mean, I've never tried to print it off, but I'm sure it'd be this thick, from the PM and that includes everything; everything, trailing, everything.   James: Yeah. So one question that I ask all of my podcast guests is, what is the most valuable value-add that you see in your experience?   Ben: I think the finishing textures inside of the units. I think that people are willing to forgive you. And you know, we do things like upgrade laundry, little rooms we build out. We don't build a separate building, but like if our laundry room is this big and it only needs to be this big, we're going to put a wall here and make a gym over here and add and the laundry room over here, things like that we do. But people are willing to forgive you so much if you create an interior that looks good and functions well. I mean, I don't care what you do on the exterior, if the inside of the unit is not great, it's just going to be difficult to drive rents. Now, once the inside of the unit is great, there's a bunch of other things you need; you can't have an ugly looking laundry room, you can't have no amenities, you can't have a shitty looking office, it's a complete packaging thing.   But I don't know, I mean, I guess my perspective is different on it. I don't nickel and dime my renovations because I'll never get the rents because of what we talked about. I don't want a hodgepodge unit, like painted cabinets that are 30 years old and resurface countertops. I just don't want to be left standing holding that bag if I have to be in this property for another five or seven years, for example, I don't want to be holding that bag for that long. So I've never really gone through and said, okay, how much is the countertop worth? How much are new cabinets worth? Because we're doing all of it. I have my scope, I know what's included. And at this point is just the easiest thing because we dialed it in, we know where everything is coming from. The PM just orders everything, we know how much it costs. If this kitchen is a little bit bigger, it's got one more extra cabinet, well, pricing goes up by $135. It's not difficult at this point to know what the remodel is going to cost.   James: Yeah. So you primarily focus on all of it inside the interiors?   Ben: Yeah.   James: So a lot of people are trying to start in multifamily nowadays. I mean, multifamily is a buzzword right now, right? I mean, the economy is doing very well, everything is so good. What would you advise to a Newbie who's trying to get started in multifamily? That's a long sigh.   Ben: I don't know because the economy's doing really well, that means the competition is very stiff. The thing is, you really got to know what you're doing it, this isn't a good time for newbies because the economy is doing very well and it'll probably continue doing well at some point and they'll go down and it won't do so well. And the decisions you make today could hurt you tomorrow and if you are just starting out and you are a Newbie and you're looking at, I can't imagine how you do large multifamily and you haven't bought some four-plexes before and some six-plexes, having to internalized all that stuff, you're better off just investing money in somebody else's deal, honestly, I feel at this point, because the stakes are too high. I am buying at four and a half gap, you can't make money at four and a half cap, you can only lose money at four and a half cap, which is why I buy a needle in a haystack; a very specific asset. If you are a Newbie, what the hell do you know to be able to do anything of what I do?   James: Correct. Right. That's so many details in renovation, finding deals, underwriting deals so many skills involved, right? It's not like anybody can jump in and do it right now.   Ben: Which is why we have this conversation, which it should be attractive to more seasoned people, to people like us, people that already have that ball rolling and they're maybe trying to break out to the next level. So if you're talking to me about newbies, this isn't a conversation they should even listen to because half of it they will not understand.   James: They wouldn't understand. You have to do it to really appreciate it. At least you should have flipped one property. [1:02:17 crosstalk]   Ben: Listen, underwriting is expressing with numbers, a behavior of people and the interaction of people and property, that's all it is. If you've never dealt with a tenant once in your life, how do you know what those dynamics even look like?   James:  Correct. I've seen a lot of newbies right now immediately, they're buying 100 units, 200 units. I mean, yeah, the market is so good right now, you're relying on property management, there's a lot of wind on your back. Right? The appreciation itself carries you up, but that's not going to be happening all the time. Everybody is a champion of bull market. So yeah, we started in the single-family, we did so many single families. We learned through the hard way when contractor management, it's a skill by itself, right? The whole timeline management. So that's really good advice, Ben. And is there any other things that you want to share to our audience that you have never shared in any other podcasts?   Ben: Yes, I think I shared everything about me in every other podcast, I want my own podcast to share the rest of it. And I'm not sure what the hell I'm going to talk about on my podcast because I already said everything on everybody else's podcast.   James:  Yeah. We already listened to Ben in something else.   Ben: But it's going to be very, very high level and like, I'm not going to make those excuses. I'm like if you're a Newbie, you probably shouldn't listen to this because we're going to be talking about stuff that you have no idea about. A friend of mine who's no longer with me has always said to me, 'stumbling blocks and stepping stones look a lot alike from a distance'. So if you are a Newbie, what I am telling you is be really sure that you know the difference between a stumbling block and a stepping stone before you step. So many of you guys are stepping first and then figuring out if it was a stumbling block or a stepping stone and that could be a very painful process. So I don't know, education.   James: Education Yeah. Go through the hard work of going with smaller deals first, that's what I would say. Just learn the ropes, learned the whole thing, make sure that you can do it. Syndication, turning around properties is not for everybody, that's how I would say. I mean, there are a lot of people who can do it but start small and grow and learn the skills.   Ben: Yeah. I very much disagree with the gurus who say, hey, it's just as easy to buy a 100 as it is to buy 10. This is true; it is just as easy to buy 100 when you know what you are doing. But the way you get to know what you're doing is by having bought the fourplex and the six-plex and the 10 unit. I disagree; I think it's criminal advice to send people directly into large multifamily. Have this be your goal, be excited about it, be whatever. But you need to internalize the dynamics of the game. People act in ways that are going to shock you and the numbers reflect that, don't be stupid. Don't be going and saying things like, ah, okay, here's the income. Let's just use 10% from property management and 10% for vacancy. Those things,  get a little intelligent about what you're doing.   For instance, the conversation I have with people all the time, listen, in a $500 rental, if you have to replace a furnace, it costs you $2,500; in a $1,200 rental, if you have to replace the furnace, it also costs you $1,200 or a $2,400. As a percentage of the top line, you see how that's a totally different figure. That's because all of the expenses in real estate are dollars, they're not percentages. We back into percentages. So James and I know what our percentages are because we've studied the dollars and we backed into the percentages. So if we ever use a percentage, it represents a dollar. What you guys, newbies, do a lot is you take this rent and then you divvy it up percentage wise to this, this, this, this, this. That's just not how real estate works and that's how you get hurt.   James: Correct.   Ben: Simple things like that that amaze me, that people don't think about and don't know and they jump into this stuff because Marcus and Millichap says on the proforma, this is how much percentage you need to allocate to XYZ, that's just nuts.   James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So Ben, thanks for being here. Do you want to tell our audience how to reach you?   Ben: Yeah. You're not getting my personal phone number. You're not getting that, James can have it, but you can't. But you can email me at Ben@justaskBenwhy.com or you can just go to, justaskBenwhy.com and we'll look over my website. You can email me through the website as well if you'd like. But yeah, I have a couple of different email accounts for like serious people and then people like you, I'm not giving up those.   James: All right, thanks Ben for being..   Ben: To all the people that I offend, you know, I get on a podcast with one goal in mind; offend as many people as you can, Ben because like if this is your brand is what you do, so go for it. I think I offended a few people, didn't I?   James:  No, I think I like the real numbers, the real details because sometimes some gurus out there makes real estate and multifamily so easy. I mean people don't realize it, people are selling education as far right. So it's not that easy, there is a lot of science behind multifamily, there's a lot of hard work behind it. It takes a lot of experience looking at hundreds of underwriting numbers and trying to figure out, and of course, there's also another aspect of, now I already buy it, now I'm going through the whole real asset management stuff and they realize, oh, whatever and the road was completely different from what I'm doing asset management, right? So realizing that it takes a lot of experience as well. So it's a learnable trick, but there's also a lot of hard work involved in growing and doing the real stuff, that's what I see. So that's really good advice, Ben. So thanks for being on the show for my audience. Thanks for being here. As I said, you have a lot of things to do outside of listening to this podcast and I really appreciate you guys being here. We hope we really delivered value to you guys. That's the reason I'm doing this podcast, to give true value to listeners and learn as much as possible before dabbling into real estate and multifamily commercial real estate. Thanks. And I'll talk to you all soon.   Ben: Thank you.  

What I'll be talking about today literally lifted the weight off my shoulders and allowed me to have personal freedom. I'm going to give you the steps to properly internalize this lesson and take personal responsibility to truly set yourself free.

What I'll be talking about today literally lifted the weight off my shoulders and allowed me to have personal freedom. I'm going to give you the steps to properly internalize this lesson and take personal responsibility to truly set yourself free.

Greg Inglis has announced his immediate retirement from rugby league.The Rabbitohs captain revealed his decision on Monday, calling it quits on his glittering career nearly two years earlier than he'd planned to.The 32-year-old, who has claimed multiple premierships alongside a lengthy representative career, arrived at South Sydney headquarters to deliver the news."I think it's time and it's the right decision for me," an emotional Inglis told the media on Monday morning. "I've been contemplating it for a while now."As of today, it's official. There's been a lot of speculation out there. My body hasn't given up on me, but I think it's time for me. It's time for me to go and just enjoy life and look after the four horses I have now."It's been an incredible journey ... a remarkable ride.One of the most decorated players of the 21st century, Inglis has been battling a serious shoulder problem and hasn't played since he was injured in round two against St George Illawarra.He ends his tenure on the field with 263 games under his belt, not including 32 Origin appearances and 39 Kangaroos caps."Most of the boys were pretty shocked even though they knew it was coming," Inglis continued. "They were taken aback by it. What I'll miss most is the dressing shed."Inglis was thrown a curveball mid-press conference with a reporter asking him why he chose to play for Queensland in State of Origin despite being born on NSW's mid north coast."I chose to go to Queensland because I was happy up there and felt more at home. I felt wanted and felt I belonged there," he said.The legendary back squashed any thought of him jumping on the winning side, reminding fans he joined the Maroons in a slump."NSW was on the brink of winning four straight," he said, before dropping another rib-tickling one-liner."I was from Kempsey, which is just on the other side to Coolangatta."Rabbitohs coach Wayne Bennett reflected on the Queensland great's career and declared him one of the finest NRL players of his generation."It's the hardest part in a footballer's life to know when your time is up."Through conversations with people around him, he's been able to come to a decision he is comfortable with. He has a wonderful reputation and is one of the finest players of his generation."The end was always in sight for Inglis but it was never meant to come this soon. Still Queensland's State of Origin captain, he planned to bid farewell to the representative arena in 2019 before ending his NRL career at the end of next season.Instead though, a poor range of movement in his left shoulder has him struggling to lift his arm above his head or away from his body.Dragons skipper James Graham told Fox Sports he "couldn't believe" the Queensland great was set to bow out."He deserves better ... not everyone gets a fairytale exit from the game," he said.Damaging at both centre and fullback in club and representative football, Inglis made his name as Melbourne began their dominant era in 2006 and remained part of the Storm's success until forced to leave amid the salary cap scandal.He landed at Redfern desperate to end the Rabbitohs' title drought, doing so in the 2014 grand final as he scored the final try and sent the burrow into delirium.He was just as dominant at representative level, forming arguably the greatest centre-wing combination in State of Origin history with Darius Boyd on Queensland's left edge.There he scored the majority of his 18 Origin tries, while also crossing the line 31 times in 39 Kangaroos appearances. 

Cravings can feel very intense, and when you're working and feeling stressed out, reaching for that cookie or cupcake can seem like the answer to your discomfort. What I'll be addressing today is why we as humans have cravings and how you can embrace them in a way that will help you lose weight. Get full show notes and more information here: https://www.thenurseweightlosscoach.com/7

In this episode of the Houston Home Talk, Mike Wall of Love Ohio Living and James talk about the detailed roadmap for changing business over to EXP, consistency, and branding.Quotes : " If we do get somebody to say yes, then we got a shot at a six-figure income."" You'll get what you want if you can help other people get what they want. "Mentions:Website: http://loveohioliving.comShownotes: 1:04: Response from other people to the interviews2:07 Mike started real state business04:45 Mike talking about consistency08:45 - Mike talks about branding 19:24 - Team Structure 20: 48 - Mike's favorite books and podcasts.Full Transcript:[00:03] INTRO: Welcome to Houston home talk featuring all things real estate in the Houston area. We'll interview real estate professionals, local business owners, and special guests from right here in the Houston community. This is where you get the inside scoop about what's new in real estate, new community openings and business openings and much more. The Houston Home Talk Show starts right now.[00:32] JAMES: All right guys welcome. What's up? This is James J. Welcome to Houston Home Talk. I am excited today to have my man Mike Wall from Dayton, Ohio. What's up Mike? How are you today?[00:43] MIKE: Yes sir. Baby, I'm so happy to be here, man. I'm so happy to help. We'll be able to drop some value on your audience today, brother.[00:50] JAMES: Yeah. Listen, I have been watching you now for several months as you have been doing a lot of interviews with a lot of the new people that have been moving over to EXP Realty. I want to say thank you because a lot of the content that you've been providing, I know I've used, I forwarded it to people and I know that the value that you're providing is helpful to a lot of people. You and I met in New Orleans last month. I've been watching you for several months. As soon as we met, there was several people that came up to you and said, hey, thanks Mike. I know you're reaching people. [01:21] MIKE: Yeah.[01:22] JAMES: You're helping people because a lot of people can't do what you're doing in the way that you do it so thank you for that. I wanted to ask you so I want to just start, so you've been doing a lot of these interviews, a lot of Facebook Live interviews. I want to get people introduced you. I want to ask you real quick, what's been the response from other people to the interviews that you've been doing with the new people that have joining EXP?[01:42] MIKE: Yeah. No, it's a great question man. It's really been overwhelming more than I even thought and really the whole reason if I back up and just telling you the reason why I started doing the podcast… [01:52] JAMES: Right.[01:53] MIKE:…is because I knew that we were building something special. I also knew that changes is big. Change is big for everybody involved and especially the for those people who are team leaders in running a business. I wanted to give those people a platform to be able to share their unique story with the world and in hopes that somebody out there might identify with them and be able to make an intelligent decision about where their business went and then also providing a detailed roadmap for change if they decided to move their business over to EXP. Then also kind of lastly is just to provide insight on people curious about learning more about EXP.[02:34] JAMES: Right? Yeah. Let's get to know a little bit about you because I know you have been in the business. You've been licensed for about 16 years or so. You started full time…was it 2014 when you were officially started full time? [02:45] MIKE: I did it. I got a unique story. I've had my license since 2002. I actually got into the business just as a buyer specialist for one of the top agents here in our marketplace. A guy named Phil Herman who worked for Remax is a big deal man. The guy was selling like 300 properties back like when nobody knew about teams. When I got into the business I just thought, man, I don't want to try to learn all this on my own. What I'll do is I'll take a little bit less of a commission split to go under somebody who actually has all the knowledge for what I want to do, right? I worked with Phil 2002 to 2009 and we all know what happened in 2008-2009. The market just completely crashed.I actually got out of real estate. I kept my license but I went to work back in corporate America and I did that for five years. I was working for a company that was based out of Blue Ash, which is a suburb of Cincinnati and I was selling copiers, man. It is a grind doing that. I did that for five years. I knew I wouldn't do that long term and I knew I would get into real estate. [03:43] JAMES: Right. [03:44] MIKE: In 2013 in about October, I started calling the expires in 2013. In 2014 May I had 44 listings and I went to my wife and I said, honey, it's costing me more to be at my corporate job than it is to be here in real estate. She said, you know what? She said, do your thing man. That first year went out and sold 57 houses. Second year in the business, sold 104 houses, third year sold 187 houses and then fourth year I sold 309 houses. I just haven't looked back, man. There's so much obviously that goes in between there because now you know, I'm operating as a team. I've got some great team members. I got a great business partner now. We've opened up a whole world with investing and so forth.[04:30] JAMES: Now let me touch on this because it seems pretty simple. One of the things that I love about you is the consistency. I know you've been doing a lot of live coaching calls. Obviously you've been doing this for several years, calling the expires. [04:41] MIKE: Yup.[04:43] JAMES: One of the things that I tell a lot of new agents is what you think, because everybody just assumes everybody's calling the expires. I've heard you mentioned this in the video, a lot of people will stop calling after the fourth time or even a third time in a lot of cases. Obviously you were consistent. What made you focus on the expires? Because as a new agent, that's one of the things that I always tell people to do. Focus on expires. You can get that information and just keep consistent, stay consistent with it. What made you start? What was the thing that kind of got you to focus on the expires when you first started?[05:17] MIKE: Yeah. No man. That's a legitimate question because if you think about it, I mean everybody's good at something, right? Everybody can always make up the excuse that I'm not good at something and typically it's because they either don't have the experience or they're just not willing to try. For me, when I moved here, I went to high school and was raised mostly in to Dallas, Fort Worth area. I moved to Ohio and went to college at Ohio State. Go Bucks. I met my wife there and my wife was from this small town, which is a Northern Cincinnati, Southern Dayton suburb called Springboro. I didn't have a personal network. I didn't have a lot of people that I could tap into. I just thought, well, what is the next best thing? I knew I could grind it out on the phones because I had done in B to B sales selling copiers, right?[06:03] JAMES: Right. [06:05] MIKE: There's no science behind it, man. I just did it. You talked about consistency and that's, that's really what it was. It's just doing it. It's repetitions in the gym, right? It's like every day you show up. You put in your reps. You work hard, and then the magic starts to happen, man.[06:20] JAMES: Right. Yeah. That consistency thing is very difficult, especially for us because there's no one to tell us to do anything.[06:27] MIKE: Right.[06:29] JAMES: Everyone wants to get in the business, but then lacking the discipline to do what you did for three years and still continue to do to this day with the Expires. It's something tells you is you have a schedule and you got to work. It's hard to do. It is hard because stuff comes up. It's hard to stay consistent. If you really want to make it and you're a prime example, everybody that's calling these Expires, they're not doing it consistently. They just don't. I know it. In Houston, it's the same thing. We've got 30,000 agents here. We've got a lot of expires but of that 30,000 there's only a handful of people that are actually consistent with it. As a matter of fact you knew that and you stuck with it and clearly it works.[07:09] MIKE: I want your audience to understand something too James is that the great thing about calling the Expires is not everyone's is going to say yes, right? We are fortunate enough to work in an industry where the margins, if you do get a yes, are very large, and I always tell my team this, right? We live in a market in southwest Ohio here where the average price point is not really high, right? Our team average sale price is $178,000. Our market. Average sale price is $130,000 but you can still make a six figure income here if you just get one yes, every week because our agents average commission check is 25.50 and if you take 25.50 and divide that out over 50 weeks, you've got a nice income, right?[07:48] JAMES: Absolutely, yeah.[07:50] MIKE: Really we just focus…we have our team focus on that one yes per week, right? We understand when we pick up the phone that the odds are against us, right? We understand that most people are not going to answer the phone and if they answer, most people are not going to set an appointment. We understand also that if we do get somebody to answer it, if we do get somebody to say yes, then we got a shot at a six figure income.[08:10] JAMES: Absolutely. Yeah, and you know there's a couple of books I've got but the go for no is one. Darren Hardy, I love Darren Hardy. December is going to be here tomorrow and I bring this up because his book talks about the format. There's this habit, habit, habit, habit and what he used to do when he was in real estate back in the day, he would just look for no's. The more no's you get, you're just closer to that yes. At some point somebody is going to say yes and I'm a huge Darren…the compound effect. That's what that's saying in the book, compound effect. I love that book. Usually we'll bring it up every single year around this time of year and I go through it and I'll operates during the year because it's a great book about the discipline of habits. In this business. it is key to everything is self-discipline to be able to, to continue to do that. Props to you on that. Now I wanted to ask you, so I heard in the interview that you had mentioned that you had back when you started full time back '04, 2014-2015. I guess a couple of years into it. You switch from the wall group over to love Ohio living, LOL team.[09:05] MIKE: I did. I did.[09:07] JAMES: Explain why did you did that? I think I know the answer. I wanted my audience to understand why did you do that? Why did you think that was important to get your name off the brand and brand it to level high live in which you did.[09:18] MIKE: Yeah. No, that's a great question. There's arguments for both sides.For me personally, I thought it was more sustainable to build a business that didn't have my name on it. I didn't think people would sustainably work to build my business. I thought that together, if we formed something that we could all believe in and all row the same direction, that didn't have my name on it. In another words, it's like a football team, right? If you think of the Dallas cowboys, right? Who did beat the Saints last night which…[09:50] JAMES: Yes, they did. Yeah.[09:51] MIKE: if you think of the Dallas Cowboys, they're not called the Jerry Jones, right? They're called the Dallas Cowboys. Jerry Jones owns the cowboys, but everybody has their respective position for the Dallas cowboys. When they come together, they make a team, right? I wanted to do is I wanted to take the level how living team and I wanted to galvanize everybody around that.What that stood for was elite level agents being able to plug their businesses in to our tool systems and resources to go out and sell as many houses as they want. Not, they plugged into Mike Wall and just took every, all my leftovers, right? Because there is a team model that works that way and I just don't believe it's sustainable. The statistics show, I mean, the shelf life on those type of a team, the shelf life of the agent is much lower, right? Because what happens is they come in, in most cases and they build them up and then those agents, they want to go do the same thing whereas now we have an agent on our team. It's like Natalie Rose, right? Is an agent on our team? It's Natalie Rose with the level higher living team at a power broker by EXP Realty, right? Her name goes on the sign. We just have our LOL logo. Frankly, it's not that I would ever sell my business, but if you think of it like this, James who's going to buy Mike Wall real estate without Mike Wall.[11:09] JAMES: Yeah. [11:10] MIKE: You know what I mean? [11:11] JAMES: Now you're, you're right on. That's a key when we talk about marketing branding because I f struggled with that as well earlier and having my name. I agree with you completely. I think the buy in from your team is much more when you have LOL Level Higher Living. I love that you did that. That's a key. That's a nugget for people to really look at that because like you say there's arguments both ways. I'm actually on board with you as far as the branding and not having your name attached to it for the long term, long term that's a great idea. Good information there. Let me ask you, so from all the interviews that you've been doing with a lot of the EXP Agents that have been mourning, it's been absolutely crazy the growth that we've had. You joined back, was it February of this year is when you guys moved over? [11:55] MIKE: Yes sir, it'd be a year. [11:58] JAMES: Montel Williams, you moved over. What's been the best or the most surprising thing, specifically from the people that you have interviewed? Because I don't know if you've got to off the top of your head how many people you've interviewed since you started the show.[12:10] MIKE: Probably around 20, 25 at this point.[12:13] JAMES: Okay. Okay. What's been maybe one of the biggest surprises or maybe common similarities? Because everybody's story's a little different. I probably have watched virtually every video interview that you've done. Everybody's story just a little bit different. What have you found that maybe something that's maybe been similar from a lot of the people that you've spoken to? [12:30] MIKE: Yeah. I have them. Something instantly pops to mind and because it really not only has it surprised me that this is what I've learned from them. It is something that we never expected when we came over. I'm learning now when I talked to people in those interviews is that it's the same thing for them, right? What I'm learning is that the community. It's the community that we've created. It's the people that now we're able to tap into, right? Because like Jay Kinder and Mike Reese, the NEA group, right? They used to run this mastermind that was like a $25,000 buy in, right? Now they're doing that mastermind for free. [13:09] JAMES: Yeah. [13:10] MIKE: Right? We're talking about Kinder was the number one, number two guy for COA banker in the world at one time, right? He's one of the smartest guys in real estate. When you're able to plug in to those guys like I could shoot him a text right now and get a response from him, right? The same thing with Kyle Whistle, the same thing with Dan Beer. I mean we're talking about some of the biggest real estate teams and smartest real estate minds in the business.For me that was the biggest surprise man, is the fact that now we've created this fantastic community of learning and sharing and just growth and excitement, man. That's an easy answer for me. [13:50] JAMES: Yeah, you and I, we've got a lot of similar circles as far as NEA. I've been with NEA probably since 2011. Actually, back then it was just Kinder-Reese. I've been following Jay for years. He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Yes, I also coached with them him well. You're right. When now you've gotten to exponential growth summit back in the day. [14:06] MIKE: I never did go to that believe it or not. Yeah, I never went.[14:12] JAMES: Okay.[14:13] MIKE: I coached with NEA. I didn't exponential growth. [14:17] JAMES: Right. The funny thing now is that with EXP, with all these big name ages moving over, and you're right, the community and the collaboration. I know we keep using these words over. It's true. When you're in it and you and I were here where we both are at EXPN. We've been able to see it. The fact that you're right that I could call Jay right now. I've paid thousands and thousands of dollars to Jay to coach me. Now that same information, I could still get it and get access to him with literally just picking up the phone right now. That's been one of the biggest, pleasant things that I've seen as well. For a lot of people that are not, or maybe looking at the opportunity right now other than the collaboration, what else is maybe been one of the things that's been a plus for you? [15:03] MIKE: What I want to add to that real quick is that I don't want people to take that for granted because a lot of people I think represent EXP the wrong way. You're trying to get people, you're calling people that you don't know and you're trying to get them to move for revenue share or stock. That's not enough to get people to move. It's like you need to figure out what if we understand at the end of the day, right? That map is more valuable than the treasure. Then you understand that that knowledge that you can get through collaboration, that's where the treasure is, right?That's the map to the treasure. To be able to collaborate with those guys in a mastermind group. These guys are doing stuff at a level that we just haven't thought of or haven't gotten to in our businesses yet. For that person out there who's doing $10 million or $20 million a year that wants to get to 20 million or 40 million or a 100 million, right. The difference between them, where they're at right now and where they want to be is that roadmap, right? When you join EXP, you're able to tap into that right away, right, through the collaboration and relationships that you'll build here. I wanted to make sure that your audience was crystal clear on that because although revenue share is fantastic and the opportunity to be an owner through stock is fantastic. It's not the only reason you should join EXP, right?[16:28] JAMES: Yeah. No question about it. Yeah. I think the excitement around it is just because it hasn't been done this way before. [16:33] MIKE: Yeah. [16:37] JAMES: You start looking at the opportunity down the road. I could not agree with you more, Mike. That component of EXP has gotten a lot of publicity. I think as far as representing EXP, a lot of people would probably get a little turned off because everybody's talking about the revenue shift. You are right. That's not really for me the number one reason. It is the fact that you get to collaborate. You and I would not be talking right now. We aren't talking right now if it wasn’t for EXP. I wouldn't be able to call collar or anybody for that matter. It's genuine. When we went to the EXP con last month it's genuine. People are just really willing to help you with whatever because it does benefit us all when we all succeed. Where it used to be you have freinemies and you interviewed with Tammy yesterday?[17:25] MIKE: Tammy was day before. You're talking about Mary Simons Malone. I love them so much. Yes, she was frienemies with Kyle Whistle, right? They worked at competing brokerages in San Diego. She talked about that too with the collaboration now with Dan and Kyle who were formerly her biggest competition, right?[17:44] JAMES: Yeah, Yeah. Huge, huge, huge, huge. That's awesome. Couple more questions for you Mike, before I let you get on out of here. Again, you said the response from people because I saw people coming up to you and we're at the EXP last month which is pretty cool. As we were in the middle of talking,[17:59] MIKE: Let me one more thing James before because I know you asked me and I'll try not to be too long winded here. I want to make sure that people understand the value of what the model at EXP has to offer no matter where you're at in your business because you asked also what was another thing that I had learned or what was another reason that we moved and what we learned through our move, and I'm hearing back from obviously a lot of these team leaders in our interviews is the fact that I had a decision to make personally when I moved. We were opening up our own market center. We had approval through KWRI. We were opening. In fact, that market center has now opened without me. Right? [18:34] JAMES: Okay. [18:35] MIKE: Some other person or group came in and took my place. I was supposed to be an owner at that market center and EXP was put into my lap, right? We had a decision to make right away and that decision was, do I move forward with my plans with Keller Williams to open this market center, right? Or do I move my team to EXP? I'll tell you what it came down to. It came down to what was better for my team, right? Ultimately the reason why EXP want one out is because the move to Keller Williams would have been a lateral move. Actually it would have been a worst move for them because the CAP was going up at the new office. It would have only been a win for me, right? I could have been an owner at that office and that would have been great, right? Our Ego loves that, right? I'm an owner. Ultimately if I knew I wanted it to be successful through my team. That's what I want and ultimately to be able to provide them the best platform for success, right? I knew that I had to make the decision to move to EXP because now I can offer them things that I never could before. That is through revenue share and that is through who stocks, right? Now, they can become owners. They have a vested interest after three years. They have two exceptional wealth building tools that they never had access to before.[19:46] JAMES: Absolutely, yeah. That same message as I go around talking with agents in my market, same message. My team is definitely not structured because your team structure right now is, consists of what? How is your team set up right now?[19:57] MIKE: We serve two markets. We serve Dayton-Ohio market and also the Cincinnati-Ohio market. [20:02] JAMES: Okay. [20:03] MIKE: We have 25 agents. We also have a listing manager and a contract manager and then an office manager as well. [20:10] JAMES: Right. [20:11] MIKE: I have Director of operations/ co-owner and a guy named Jump Welski.[20:16] JAMES: Yeah. You've got a pretty big a machine going up there and a lot of people being affected by your decision, all tweets and make that move over to the EXP, which is not something to be taken lightly by any means. I've spoken to a lot of other agents. I don't know. I've watched a lot of your interviews with people. It's a tough decision because it's not just you that you're affecting here. It's a ton of people that are affected by your decision, good or bad one way or the other. I don't think there's really any downside to EXP. I'm going to be a little biased, but the other revenue models or other revenue streams that we have available is great. The fact that we can collaborate with people all over the country at this point and soon it'd be international, 2019-2020 which is a pretty exciting where the company's. I compare what we're doing now with EXP and how Glenn has set this up and the fact that you are not going to have a conversation. You and I could talk to each day. Three quick questions I want to ask you. First question is what are you reading right now? I know you're always seeking knowledge. I know. Are you reading anything right now that…[21:20] MIKE: Let me make it up for you man. I'll tell you right now. I usually have a couple of different books going on. I do love to read and I do love to listen to podcasts. I'm listening to… this is not a business book but its called sleep smart. I don't do fitness coaching, but I have a fitness coach too. He sends me books. I'm also listening to the Perfect Day Formula and that's by Craig Valentine. I'm listening to it another book called The Swerve. That's a good book. It's funny man, because if you do a lot of reading or if you listen to podcasts, you always get ideas about books from other people, right? It seems like one book leads to another write. One book mentions another and then you pop that in audible and you read that. I think one really good nugget and you and your audience should write this down if you haven't heard it already is listen to that recent, the most recent Maxout podcast with Ed Mylett, where he talks to you. UOP baseball team. That is so good, man. It is so powerful. I've shared that with my entire team. I listened to it probably every other morning because it just so resonates with me, especially as you transitioned into 2019. If you need something to get you up and light a fire under your butt and it is great, great material, man. [22:26] JAMES: Yeah, I have my last. He's awesome. He is awesome. That's the beauty of a podcast is or an audio book for that matter just to be able to listen to it at any point of your day, at any time. It really doesn't matter where you're at nowadays. You can just pop that in and listen to us. I have not heard that one. I will make sure that I listened to it. I'm actually post the links so people can get just click where and go right into it. [22:46] MIKE: Awesome. [22:47] JAMES: I'm an avid, avid reader as well. There's always something that I pick up. The knowledge that it's that compound effect. One compounds on top of you, the next thing. Another last, last two questions here. What's your favorite quote? Favorite quote.[23:02] MIKE: Man, that's a good one. I think it's probably changed throughout time. I think my favorite quote is probably really cliché at this point, but it just so resonates with me is the old Zig Ziglar quote is that "you'll get what you want. If you can help enough other people get what they want." That has not always been true for me. I've grown in my business, I've learned that my success will ultimately be a product of the success that I help others have.[23:28] JAMES: Yeah, no, that's awesome. Zig Ziglar Fan, goodness gracious as well. I one that was one of my favorite of course. The other one is then you're going to be a meaningful specific or a wandering generality. It's huge and especially for realtors because most realtors are not meaningful specifics.[23:45] MIKE: Right. Right. We know that.[23:46] JAMES: Great, great quote there. The last thing I want to ask you, so what's something that you want to do in 2019 that you've never done before? Whether it be business related obviously EXP is an explosion in growth mode right now. What's something that maybe you've got want to do a 2019 that you've never done before?[24:04] MIKE: That question comes at a really opportune time for me because we're actually in the middle of opening up our own mortgage company, the P and L model. I'm actually really excited to play around with that a little bit. I think there's a huge opportunity, not only to add more money to the bottom line but to also provide a level of service that most of the real estate agents can't provide because this is going to be set ups just so especially at first just so this person is servicing our team.[24:29] JAMES: That's great. I've had a sin as a, as a loan officer. There's no better mortgage advisor like yourself because you are on that side and you speak to what your clients are really wanting and really be able to direct if it's going to be your mortgage company or whoever you're working or partnering with on the mortgage side to really provide a really, really good value for people because I know you've experienced it. I've experienced it with a mortgage companies that it amazes me that some of these mortgage companies exist or lenders should I say. I've had people just completely disappear during the process. This is amazing to me. It's amazing. That's a great opportunity and I think with your background there's no way that you would not be successful with that or anything else that you do. [25:19] MIKE: Thank you sir.[25:20] JAMES: That'd be great. Again, I am a huge fan. I admire everything you've been doing. You're one of those people when you meet him, you just like of like literally I met you. We shook hands on. My God, I just liked this guy. [25:29] MIKE: Likewise my man, likewise.[25:34] JAMES: I've got to get up to and actually one more thing we got to talk about real quick, the most important thing will Ohio State be in the playoffs or not.[25:42] MIKE: Man, at this point, does it even matter? It's whoever's going to play Bama and lose, right?[25:45] JAMES: Right. Right. That’s true. [25:50] MIKE: I love my Buck guys I'm also a realist man. [25:52] JAMES: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's got to be quiet if you you say well. Anyway, when I appreciate your time, Mike. Thank you so much man. Thank you. Thank you. Keep doing what you're doing. I will continue to promote you as much as I can. If there's anything I can help you with, let me know and appreciate your time, man. You have a great one and we'll catch up. [26:07] MIKE: Likewise and if anybody's interested in that free coaching that you mentioned they could go to liverealestatecoaching.com and sign up there. I'd be happy to take on anybody for 30 to 40 minutes and just really dive deep into any area of your business you're looking to improve. [26:24] JAMES: I will post the link on the podcast. Actually let me put it on here so people can get that link and access what you're offering there. Yeah, can't go wrong. Free strategy call with Mike, reach out to them. He's an awesome agent, great example a lot of consistency and professionalism. I really appreciate what you do on Mike, We'll catch up soon brother. You take care.[26:43] MIKE: All right man. Thanks so much, James. I appreciate it. [26:46] JAMES: Okay. All right, bye-bye.[26:47] MIKE: Good luck.If you like this episode of the Houston Home Talk podcast, please don't forget to like, share, and comment! We appreciate your support and feedback! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

What I'll be sharing this week is all about the power of not giving up and the power of compounding results. It's easy to want to throw the towel in when you've had a failure or even a series of failing moments, but it's important to remember your why. I'm exploring four tips for you to try out when you feel the urge to give up on your goals. Get full show notes and more information here: https://dianamurphycoaching.com/ceo9

Stress is a hugely negative emotion and it causes massive disruption in trying to maintain a healthy physical and mental state. What I'll be covering on this week's episode is how you can tackle stressful moments so you can avoid overeating and overdrinking. Get full show notes and more information here: https://dianamurphycoaching.com/42

Most people think that running the training miles will make the race easy, but honestly, at least 80% of the work is mental, so it's crucial to get your brain in shape to go the distance. What I'll be covering on this episode is how visualization or "mental rehearsals" can complement your training plan. Get full show notes and more information here: https://notyouraveragerunner.com/61

  What I'll be discussing myself and with others about life as an extreme Sensitive, Empath, Intuitive... whatever spectrum of whatever name you feel suits you best!   Thank you so much for listening!  I'm glad you're here.   You can check out all my previous episodes on Castbox at Empath's Alchemy.   rebeccagarifo.com rebeccagarifo00@gmail.com questions and topic requests welcome!! @empathsalchemy   With love and joy! -Rebecca Garifo Ph.D. LMBT CSC 

What’s the recipe for a successful divorce? If you’ve tried everything, and it’s time to separate or get divorced - how do you do it well, so that you (and your soon-to-be-ex) emerge relatively unscathed? And if you have children, how do you ensure that they are also not traumatized by the process? In this week’s episode, our guest is Dr. Constance Ahrons, one of the world’s leading experts in how to navigate divorce well. Her book, The Good Divorce was a groundbreaking work that studied the effects of divorce on children - and identified exactly what kinds of post-divorce relationships had the best outcomes. In my conversation with Dr. Ahrons, you’ll learn exactly what to do, what not to do, and how to salvage a situation that’s already not going well. As always, I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this episode and what revelations and questions it creates for you. Please join us in the Relationship Alive Community on Facebook to chat about it! Sponsors: Along with our amazing listener supporters (you know who you are - thank you!), this week's episode is being sponsored by Hungryroot.com. Please visit them to take advantage of their offer and show appreciation for their support of the Relationship Alive podcast! Hungryroot.com is a service that sends healthy, delicious, plant-based and gluten-free foods to you, each week. They're easy to prepare (either ready-to-eat or ready in less than 10 MINUTES). And - special shoutout to their cookie dough - which you can eat raw (or bake for a healthy dessert). This is by far the best prepared food delivery service that we've experienced. And you can get $25 off your first TWO orders if you use the coupon code "ALIVE" at checkout - at Hungryroot.com. Resources: Check out Constance Ahrons's website Read Constance Ahrons’s books, including The Good Divorce and We’re Still Family FREE Relationship Communication Secrets Guide - it also still helps during separations... Guide to Understanding Your Needs (and Your Partner's Needs) in Relationship (ALSO FREE) - even this is helpful for understanding the needs of your co-parent www.neilsattin.com/divorce Visit to download the transcript, or text “PASSION” to 33444 and follow the instructions to download the transcript to this episode with Constance Ahrons. Amazing intro/outro music graciously provided courtesy of: The Railsplitters - Check them Out Transcript: Neil Sattin: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Relationship Alive. This is your host, Neil Sattin. Now as you know, we come down strongly in favor of relationships on this show, and in favor of helping you learn the skills required to have an amazing relationship, to turn your relationship around if things aren't going so well, and especially if things are really not going well, how do you find a foothold and work your way back up to intimacy and togetherness. But, as we've also talked about on the show, that isn't always possible. When it's not possible, we stand also strongly in favor of finding ways to part from your partner in ways that are kind, in ways that are loving, in ways where you can support each other. We've had Katherine Woodward Thomas on the show to talk about conscious uncoupling, her process of using the pain of a break-up to help grow, and learn new skills and new development for yourself, things that you would bring to your next relationship. Neil Sattin: Today, I want to dive into the nitty gritty of what's required when you are ending a relationship. What kinds of things do you need to consider in order to have the best chance at being successful? In order to have this conversation, we have a very special guest, Dr. Constance Ahrons, who is the author of the book The Good Divorce, among other books. She was one of the first people to bring to popular awareness this idea that divorce doesn't have to be a stigma. It doesn't have to be all fire and brimstone and acrimony. It also doesn't have to mean that now you've created a broken family with kids suffering in the aftermath. Now, both I and Dr. Ahrons share at least one thing in common. We've both been through a divorce. This is a topic that's really personal for me as well, and her book has been really helpful for me, both in terms of my own situation - and when I went through Katherine Woodward Thomas' conscious uncoupling coach training she uses The Good Divorce as one of the textbooks for the coaches going through that training. Neil Sattin: It's such an honor and a privilege to have Dr. Ahrons with us today. We will have a detailed transcript of today's episode, which you can get if you visit NeilSattin.com/divorce, or if you text the word passion to the number 33444, and follow the instructions. I think that's it, so Dr. Constance Ahrons, thank you so much for being with us here today on Relationship Alive. Constance Ahrons: Thank you Neil, I appreciate you asking me. Neil Sattin: Well, it's such an important topic. It's interesting to me, because your book, at least the edition that I was reading, came out in the mid-'90s, and at that time, you were talking about the importance of shifting the culture and our awareness of what's possible in terms of divorce. You did this comprehensive study of what you called binuclear families, and we'll get into that in a moment, and I think overall, though, the purpose was to get it out into the public sphere that divorce doesn't have to be this horrible thing, even though it's, in many ways, a set-up to be a really traumatizing experience. Neil Sattin: What's interesting is that many years later, in fact I think it was probably close to 20 years later, when I was going through my divorce, my experience with my family was that it was really hard to talk to them about the fact that I was going through a divorce. In fact, one of my cousins kind of jokingly said, "You might as well be telling them you have cancer." That's what it feels like in our family. So I'm curious if we could start off by just kind of talking about the context of how much has our notion of a good divorce being possible, how much have you seen that shift since your book came out, The Good Divorce, and what do you think still needs to happen to help that conversation continue, along with things like you being here on the Relationship Alive podcast? Constance Ahrons: You know, Neil, that's such an interesting question, because it seems to, I mean, I believe that it's changed dramatically, but at the same time, I also find that some people still carry the stereotypic image that it's going to devastate the whole family, children will always be destroyed in the process, and will have long-term damage. When I started to do this research, which was in 1989, that was the only stereotype that we had. That was the only literature that we had available to us, and it was quite a shift. Constance Ahrons: My study was funded by the National Institutes of Mental Health, and it was even a shift for them to fund a study that was not looking for problems, that was looking instead for what does a divorce look like, for how it affects children, how it affects parents, what is the relationship between ex-spouses like, and trying to deal with the stereotype that we had that ex-spouses must, of course, be bitter enemies, and children, of course, must be damaged. There was no literature in the field to say anything that was positive about divorce. What I mean by positive is, I'm not saying divorce is good. I need to make that distinction which is very different from having a good divorce, and sometimes that distinction is sometimes hard to grasp, because divorce in and of itself, it just is. It's not good, it's not bad. You can make it good, you can make it bad. Constance Ahrons: It is a fact of our culture, and it's a fact of marriage. Still we have the same kind of percentages, with about 50% of marriages ending up in divorce. 50% of our population can't be all that bad. What I did find, and what was most important about the study, and at the time was groundbreaking, so we have to remember that this goes back now almost 30 years that it was groundbreaking, and not if we were looking at it today as much, was the fact that not all divorces are destructive to the family, not all ex-spouses hate each other, not all divorces have to be full of fury and rage, that maybe there were different types of divorces. That's what happened in the study. Constance Ahrons: What had only been studied was the problems with divorce, and just going from A to B, divorce is necessarily bad, rather than there are lots of different outcomes from divorce, and let's see what they look like. That's what I have spent most of my career working on, has been looking at the ex-spouse relationship, the relationship between former spouses when they are parents. What does that relationship need to look like for the children to come through the divorce with the minimal amount of long term damage? There is always pain, but the minimal amount of damage to the children. There might be pain and crisis for a year or two, and in a good divorce, where parents can continue to parent effectively, then the children are going to come through it better after the crisis. There'll be an initial, sometimes a year, sometimes only six months, and it depends on the age of the children of course, too, where there might be a great deal of upset, and then it starts to calm down, and parents begin to get into patterns with each other about how they continue to relate. But it takes a lot of work. Neil Sattin: Yeah. I love how your focus is on uncovering what truly is in the best interests of the children, because that's something that it seems like it's just a matter of opinion in a lot of cases. It's hard to pin down what qualifies as the best interests of the children. Constance Ahrons: Well, remember that it is a very rare case that children want their parents to divorce. We found that even when there was high conflict in the marriage, children still frequently did not want their parents to divorce. To find out exactly what it takes, and we had 98 pairs of former spouses in our study, and we interviewed them at one and three and five years post-divorce, interviewing both of the ex-spouses, what we found is that the relationship between parents, as we did by the way in marital studies, we found the same thing in divorce, that how ex-parents continued to relate to one another related to how the children came through the process. When ex-spouses could relate to each other in a way that I would call the good divorce, is when they could relate to each other in a way that was respectful, that they were mature enough to look at the difference between being parents and being spouses, and being able to switch gears and remember that they were indeed parents, and then co-parents as well, and that divorce and co-parenting could be for a lifetime. Constance Ahrons: When we began to switch our thinking a little bit about this, we began to find that the strong relationship was how well the parents continued to relate. Of course, we used a number of different scales and different ways to look at the process and to understand what went on, and then importantly, we looked at change over five years, and then the children's reactions 20 years later. Those findings were published in a book called We're Still a Family, also by HarperCollins. What we found over time is that for the most part, the relationship between former spouses was perhaps the most important factor. There were other factors in terms of resilience of children, how much support they had outside of their parents, but when we looked at everything together, it was clear to me that parents could determine a lot about how their children were going to react to their divorce over time, not just initially, but what was it like five years later. Yeah. Neil Sattin: What I'm noticing is that there's some irony there, right? That the reason that you're splitting up with someone, unless you just kind of lost interest, is maybe that you don't really get along so well. I mean, obviously there's a whole host of possible issues that bring two people apart, but it sounds like what you're saying is, is if there are kids involved, now if there aren't kids involved, you can just kind of go your separate ways. There may still be things to figure out about property divisions and things like that, but if there are kids involved, you're still going to have to figure out how to get along, even if it was something that vexed you as a married couple. Constance Ahrons: That's very correct. Excuse me. But if you don't figure out how to get along, then you're going to really run into a lot of problems with your kids over the years. There is a difference between not getting along as spouses, but being able to get along as parents. I often see couples who come and tell me that, "We're great as parents. We are really good parents, I respect her or his parenting. We do fine together as parents, but we just can't live together. My anger with him or her is about being married to one another, being partners, being spouses. That's where my anger is." It takes some learning, and it also takes a lot of maturity, that for the sake of our children, we are not going to keep enacting the same marital communication that we had that brought us to the level of divorce, that we're going to try to ... In fact, parents often become better parents, and many talk about having better relationships once they are not living in the same household. Neil Sattin: Now, if we could, let's just quickly enumerate the different, I think you call them typologies, of post-divorce families. Just to give our listeners a chance, if you're in a divorced situation, or a post-divorce situation, these are the possible couplings, or decouplings, that you may find yourself in. They each have their impact on the outcome in terms of what we are talking about, the best interests of the children, and probably also your own best interest, in terms of your own levels of stress and being able to function well in your life, in your non-married life, to that person, anyway. Constance Ahrons: Well, what you're referring to is that coming out of the research data, we did all sorts of fancy things with factor analysis and so on, and came up with some typologies.  We came up with 5 typologies that were at one point given very academic names and then we changed the names with the help of my daughters to some much more acceptable names that everybody could understand and identify with. We came up with five types essentially but it's really a continuum. It's not as set differently as it sounds. They run the continuum from very very angry to friendly. Constance Ahrons: Start at the friendly end. First group we called the friendly - I've forgotten the name of that. Neil Sattin: The perfect pals. Constance Ahrons: Perfect pals, that's right. That was a small group that you would anticipate it would be. But it was couples that when they divorce, they've been friends in the marriage and then whatever went awry went awry and they got divorced but they still had a friendship that they continued. The next group, which is where the majority of the couples fell into, was call cooperative colleagues. This is a group of people that would not call themselves friends. If you think of a collegial relationship it may even be with somebody you don't like who smokes in the next room to you or you don't like their language or whatever but for the sake of the job you're doing you cooperate. That's the same intent. For the sake of parenting, for the sake of your children you learn to cooperate and you learn what things not to talk about, what things to talk about. We talk about things like what boundaries do we set up, what's acceptable to discuss and what's not acceptable. What's gonna get us into a fight and what's not. How can we say with talking about the kids and not talking about, well when you did this to me 20 years ago and so on. Constance Ahrons: That was very important and those people we called cooperative colleagues who could stifle the anger. They weren't best friends by any means but they learned to put their children's interests before their own at that point and learn not to go back into old history. They learn to cooperate as parents and they were good co-parents over time. The next group we had were the angry associates. And the angry associates, you could push their buttons asking anything about their marriage and they were off and running. They had trouble separating out the difference between being ex-spouses and being co-parents after divorce and those boundaries were blurred for them. Constance Ahrons: Then we had a group below that call the fiery foes. The fiery foes really could not stop fighting. Essentially, they could not have a conversation that didn't end up in conflict and of course the children were often caught in that conflict. The sad part about it is in many of those situations and with the fiery foes that if the children, if it was a bad marriage or a high conflict marriage they were caught in a high conflict divorce. Constance Ahrons: Then we have a group called the dissolved duos. In that group one parent drops out of the relationship with the children and frequently that parent is the dad. Each of those types or the continuum of types had an effect on children. Had an effect down the line of stressing the children out for many years following the divorce. Parent continued to play out the marital conflicts through their divorce for whatever reason. Sometimes it was maturity, sometimes it was just not knowing how to let go of anger. But for whatever reasons they could not move beyond the marriage and talk about their children's best interests and how to deal with that most effectively, then the children of course would feel that over the years. Constance Ahrons: And so I think it would help if I moved on to what the book We're Still Family is about. Neil Sattin: Great. Constance Ahrons: 20 years after the divorce we went back and interviewed 163 children from the 98 families. Neil Sattin: I was wondering about that. If you had done follow up. Constance Ahrons: Yes. And that's in We're Still Family. We didn't have enough funds we would've loved to interview the parents as well at 20 years post divorce, but we decide that it was most valuable to interview the children. That's what we also were funded for. We found out from the kids, not surprisingly really, from the kids that when they look back the kids that did the best, the children who came through the divorce process in the healthiest way that they could, had parents that were more like cooperative colleagues. Who had learned over the years and because it was 20 years after the divorce these 163 adult children could then reflect on how things changed over the years as well and what they were most comfortable with. You would expect most people at that time had remarried by then. Almost everyone had remarried and some had re-divorced during those 20 years span. Constance Ahrons: But the children were able to reflect back and say to us the same thing that we were finding with the parents. That when their parents found a way to get along, they didn't have to be friendly, they might only see each other at family occasions. A child's graduation, a wedding and so on, when they were able to not put children in the middle and function well as co-parents, the children did better. One thing the children hated the most is when their parents continued to fight. And that was the most destructive to children as you would expect. Different children in the same family had different responses. Which were depended on their age at the time, their personal resilience, what kind of support they had. Because children showed us very strongly that there were other factors that entered in that could help them in difficult times. That could be a coach in school, or it could be a grandparent or a close adult friend of their parent. Somebody who intervened at a time when their parents were not able to function very well. These children learned who they could depend on outside of their parent to help them through. Constance Ahrons: Some of us are just born with more resilience than others and the age at which the children were when their parents divorced made a big difference and sometimes whether they had older siblings who were able to help them through the crisis. There were a number of factors but the one that just kep popping up over and over again was how the parents continued to relate even 20 years later. And sometimes they related poorly in the first 3-5 years but improved their relationship over the years and that had an impact as well. It's never too late to have a good divorce. Neil Sattin: Let's start there because I have two questions that are closely related. But let's start there with let's say that you're listening, you're divorced and that probably true for a lot of my listeners because so many of us are. We go through that first marriage, we get divorced and we're like okay I'm gonna do it right the next time. And so you're tuning into Relationship Alive to hopefully get it right the next time. But let's say you're hearing these descriptions and if you're like me you might be thinking wow sometimes we're cooperative colleagues and other times we're angry associates and I would love to be more strongly in the cooperative colleagues camp for the sake of my kids and the sake of my life. Neil Sattin: What are some ways that you advocate for people to start moving the needle in that direction for that relationship with their ex-spouse? Constance Ahrons: The first is what you mentioned, which is motivation. I really wanna do this I want to improve what's going on with my ex and that if they knew that they could parent better that they would better, that their children would profit from that. The first thing is just an awareness of doing it. Second is to know what your hot buttons are. Know what happens when you talk with your ex on the phone, why does it all of a sudden end up in conflict. What happens? To understand what does happen and what particularly gets you set off and where the anger comes from. To be able to stay away from those areas. I'm not suggesting that we get over all of our anger at an ex-spouse from a 20 year marriage for example. But I am suggesting that I can find ways to at least not keep stepping into that same trap again of every time I say this he says that and off we go. Constance Ahrons: If I'm working with couples and trying to establish a better relationship over time, I help them to see where they get into trouble. What happens, what kind of conversations do they get into that takes them on a bad road. Almost always it's the same kind of conversation over and over again. It's when they get into some of their own spousal history. When you start to talk about the kids can you stay on that plane of just talking about the children without going in to recriminations of when you always did that or you remember when you did this and so on. But rather trying to stay as much as possible in the present, focus on the children. If things get hot - calm things down. If you're on the phone say "why don't we talk later." Sometimes couples only do well if they're meeting in Starbucks for example. They really can't meet alone. Never have these discussions in front of the children. It's always better to have a separate time when you talk about this. Constance Ahrons: For each of the spouses to identify within themselves when do I start to see red flags? When do I feel myself getting angry? When am I getting off the track? When are we talking about what to do for Jeanie's birthday and all of a sudden we're talking about 10 years ago when this happened or when that happened. Or you always did this in the marriage. And to also understand that your partner, your ex-spouse is always changing. Because one of the things we found is that dads often became better parents after divorce. Sometimes it was hard for their former spouses to accept that change. Constance Ahrons: "Well you were never there when I needed you before, how come now all of a sudden you're willing to do this for the kids or do that for the kids?" The other thing is to accept that we never change anybody else. To be able to accept that she was always late, she was never on time. Then he anticipates that she's probably going to be late several times when you're picking up or dropping off the kids. And allowing some space for that because it comes up so often. What I'll say if I'm seeing one of the couple at the time, I'll say to them did she do that in the marriage too? And the husband will say yeah. And did you try to change her? Oh for 20 years I tried to change her. And did it work? No it didn't work. Well don't think it's gonna work now. If you couldn't change somebody. Especially in the time of a loving relationship, you're certainly not gonna change them in a time in an unloving relationship. Neil Sattin: What have you seen work as far as, let's say I'm the ex-partner who's listening to this podcast and I'm thinking, okay I wanna take the initiative and help try to shift us toward being cooperative colleagues. Are there ways that you've seen in particular that work for introducing that conversation? Like hey I read this book called The Good Divorce. Something along those lines where you're like let's step back a minute and look at how we're doing here and maybe there are ways we could do this better or where we'd feel less stressed out with each other? Is there something that you've seen really helpful for people who wanna make that shift towards the more positive interaction style? Constance Ahrons: I think most helpful is when they have some good intervention. When they see a counselor together, which many people do after divorce. Because what you can accept from somebody else like how about you read this book, you may not accept from your spouse or from your former spouse. You may be resistant to anything that your former spouse presents you as being biased or whatever. Where sometimes a third party can help by presenting the same information that your ex would present but in a way that you can hear it better, that doesn't feel critical. That makes a world of difference. Constance Ahrons: I think in varying points in time it usually benefits most couples going through a divorce and afterwards to get some kind of help. Whether it's counselors, mediators, those people that can give you a third party view of you that isn't biased that can help you sort out what's going on. Frequently that person will see each of you individually to get a handle on things to be able to coach you. We're doing much more coaching today. It's not therapy. It's much more related to the current situation, not to go back into the history of the marriage, but to go forward with how are we gonna relate from here on no matter what went on in the marriage. How are we gonna be able to handle that? But very frequently it takes somebody outside the two of you. Constance Ahrons: ... it takes somebody outside the two of you to bring in that new information in a way that you can hear. So I strongly suggest then, especially in times of remarriage and at varying times in the post-divorce relationship between ex-spouses. There are times we can almost predict when there's going to be a crisis that is looming. One of them is re-coupling, having a new partner, remarrying and all of the possibilities within there. The other partner has children of their own, changes in schedules are difficult, moving away. There are all sorts of situations that are going to produce a crisis. How you come through that crisis will predict a lot about how you're going to manage the next five, eight, 10, 15 years. Constance Ahrons: The thing to remember is that once you're parents, you are a parent forever. If you want to be involved in your children's lives, and if you know that you're going to grandparent together, for example, you better start pretty early on trying to have a good relationship so that neither one of you loses out on times with the children. There are too many children I've heard recently who have said, "I'm not going to have a wedding because I can't stand having to deal with my parents together in one room. So we're just going to elope." Or, "We're not going to invite one of the parents", usually Dad. That's how dads get left out a lot. Constance Ahrons: If you want to avoid those kinds of situations, then it pays to do all the work that you can early on so that you can try to avoid those situations so that 10 or 15, 20 years later, you are still able to enjoy all the wonderful occasions that come with children. You don't want a graduation occurring and the kids being scared to death because Mom and Dad are going to fight. Who are they going to go up to afterwards, after the graduation? Parents sitting on the opposite side of the assembly or wherever the graduation is occurring. The child is the one who has to look back and forth, has to make the decision so that who's going to have dinner, who's going to have the party and so on. Constance Ahrons: Whereas a parent can do some of this deciding, it makes it much better for the children. They're not caught in between in the same way. I've heard of children being invited by both parents for dinner, separate dinners at the same time by both parents. Well that's terrible for kids. The last thing you want to do is ... You know, the worst thing for children is to be caught into a loyalty conflict between their parents. "If I chose Mom, Dad will be furious." So you want to help your children by the two of you deciding beforehand how are things going to go. Constance Ahrons: You don't have to do everything together, but at least don't do them concurrently. Don't have Mom and Dad having a party at 6:00, in their own homes at the same night. At least split of the evenings or something. Neil Sattin: Right. There's a situation that I've seen in clients. I'm curious for your take on this, which is ... I love your practical advice here. Like figure out what your hot button items are, and just don't talk about those. Try to keep it about the kids. Constance Ahrons: That's right. Neil Sattin: Yet, many times, the contentious issues end up being things like, what's our visitation schedule? How much is the child support going to be? That sort of thing. So I'm wondering when you're in that kind of thing where it's like, okay, you know it's going to be contentious, but maybe one of the ex-partners wants to be collegial and wants to just say, "Hey, let's work through this," and the other one is more stuck in angry associate mode where they're just like, "Nope, I don't have to listen to you, that's why I divorced you.", etc, etc. What do you suggest that helps people come to the table around an issue that really can't be avoided like that? Constance Ahrons: Well, you know that's an important question because rarely are two people in the same place at the same time in terms of their emotions. So I think the best we can hope for is that one of them hopefully will take the high road and not get into that fight over and over again. Then, if they can, then get some help for how can we get around this? How can we find some way to compromise? It's all about compromise, just as marriage is too, for that matter. Constance Ahrons: So how can we find a way to compromise? We have to accept some things and not others. Sometimes parents do trade offs. I'll give you this if you'll give me that. If you'll give me that extra day next week, I'll give that extra day next month. What they're fighting about usually, what the things you're talking about is child support and issues which are frequently contentious, they're not really about the kids. They're about the parents. They rarely fight about the children, I find, directly related to the children. Except if you have people whose value systems are very, very different. One is very conservative, and the other is very liberal, and they want their children freely brought up that way, or big religious differences I found are problematic. But there are things that are definitely related to the children, and not related to each other. Constance Ahrons: Yeah, sometimes you do have to take the high road. You have to bite your tongue, and you have to say, "Okay, I'll compromise here if you'll compromise there." That, sometimes, works out very well by seeing a mediator. Sometimes it only takes one or two sessions with a mediator, to help you come to some compromise solution. Neil Sattin: Right, right. That's one thing I love about mediators is hopefully they are very skilled in their training, which is all about helping everyone get their needs met. I also appreciate too, that you still do coaching and consulting to help people around collaborative divorce. Your books are great guideposts, especially The Good Divorce, for how to recognize these different characteristics that you want to shoot for, that become your ideal. So you kind of know what you're modeling after. Neil Sattin: Constance, I'm wondering if we could take one last moment to chat about if someone is here and thinking, "Okay, I'm headed down this path. I'm getting divorced." What's a key element for that person to help steer the conversation towards the path of one that will leave them as cooperative colleagues so that they're starting off on the right foot? Because we've spent a lot of time talking about people who maybe aren't quite there, but who are already divorced. Constance Ahrons: Yes, well one important thing is don't use an adversarial process. I am a firm believer in using an out-of-court process because it doesn't escalate things - and when you tend to use an adversarial process, the issues become escalated. Somebody has to win, somebody has to lose. You want to use a process where you hope it's going to be a win-win. Constance Ahrons: So the first thing I would say is don't try an adversarial process. Don't go through the lawyer and say, "I want to get the most out of this that I can get. I want the kids all this time. He or she didn't do very much for the kids and wasn't good." Don't try to get your way in the divorce. So instead choose a path that is non-adversarial. Choose a path like mediation. I'm a firm believer in collaborative divorce because it's a non-court approach by a team. I think that that's a very effective approach to coming up with resolving the differences, and it's almost always using compromise. But the major part of it is the lawyers and the divorce coaches, and child specialists and financial people all sit around the table together and say, "We as a team," which includes the clients, "are going to work together to make this the best divorce we can possibly make it." Constance Ahrons: Now, that doesn't mean that there's not going to be problems and differences, of course. There's going to be ... I've yet to see one divorce where there isn't that. But it's how can we resolve those in a productive way? All of us working toward the best interests of the children. And always putting the children up front. Neil Sattin: You talk about creating a limited partnership agreement, like figuring out what your principles are and how you're going to co-parent, and spelling it out ahead of time before you even end up in front of lawyers or a judge. Constance Ahrons: Absolutely. It's very important. As we were talking about a little bit earlier, Neil, is what do you do when every time you talk on the phone you end up fighting and so on. In a limited partnership, you decide quickly, "Okay, what are the limits to this partnership? We are going to be partners. We are parents who are partners, divorced or married, or remarried. How are we going to work toward the same goal, which is having a good divorce come out of this where we can continue to relate to our children, continue to give them the best possible options in life by having two parents who love them? Let that be the major focus, and not having two parents who are constantly fighting. I'm not sure that answered your question but I think I was heading in that direction. Neil Sattin: It does. This makes me think that this term that we started out the episode with, a binuclear family, you talk in The Good Divorce about how challenged we are to have words that actually portray the outcome of divorce in a positive light, that the words themselves are hard. So maybe in closing you could just explain what's so important about binuclear, because I think it's such a valuable way of envisioning what happens next. Constance Ahrons: Well, binuclear, I think if I could have developed a different term than I did ... I used binuclear because essentially, I'm a social psychologist. So essentially I was looking to say, "What else can we be but a nuclear family?" The nuclear family does split, and it splits into two households. So if you think of two households as binuclear, so that we are one family that lives in two households, it's a wonderful message to give children is to say to them, "You know, we are still family. We live in two households." Maybe some parents will decide to do things together, sometimes celebrate holidays and  have family dinners once a month or something. Other families will not. But that we still are a family and it's just a family that is in two households now. It is binuclear. It's very, very helpful for the children. Constance Ahrons: But when you think about the terminology, we've only had negative terminology about divorce. Is there a better term that ex-spouses? Neil Sattin: I wish there were. Constance Ahrons: Well there is. We talk about ourselves now as co-parents. Neil Sattin: Yes. Constance Ahrons: We encourage people not to refer to "my ex", but to refer as to my co-parent. People when they say, "Oh well, why is language so important?" Well language is very important. It really determines what our next steps will be and how we can think about ourselves. Neil Sattin: Right. It's part of what frames the emotional state that comes from contemplating any situation. Constance Ahrons: That's right. Yeah, and I'm shocked that in all these years that I've seen very little change in that area. I still hear that ... Nobody's come up really with getting co-parents as acceptable as ex. People still say my ex rather than my co-parent. One is negative, and one is in the past, and one is positive. Neil Sattin: Let's commit right here and now that we're going to work on that change in terms. The other one I want to put out there that I think I've mentioned on the show before is because I'm remarried and we've talked about Chloe, my wife, being my kids bonus mom as a way of putting a positive spin on that. Constance Ahrons: That's nice for kids because, as you probably know, step-mothers have a terrible image. You can't find anything positive about step-mothers. All of the humor, everything, is directed at them, and it's a negative image. That's all kids hear, "You're going to have a step-mother?" as if it's awful, so I think bonus mom is terrific. Neil Sattin: Yeah, the language does matter. Constance Ahrons: Oh, it makes a big difference. Neil Sattin: Well, Constance, thank you so much for being here with us on Relationship Alive. I think we're bumping up against what you said was your hard stop, and I want to honor that. Constance Ahrons: Hard stop, yeah. Neil Sattin: But I really appreciate you being here with us. Such important work. Again, if you want to get a transcript of today's episode, you can visit NeilSattin.com/divorce, or text the word "passion" to the number 33444. We will have links to Dr. Ahrons's website and her books on the show page for this episode so that you can connect with her, read her books, and perhaps if you're going through this, you can even get some guidance from her about how to go through the process. But thank you so much for being with us today, Constance. Constance Ahrons: Well thank you, Neil, for keeping up the good work. Neil Sattin: My pleasure.

Have you ever wanted to build a great list that you can market to without spending a fortune on advertising but then you get stuck at coming up with idea for a lead magnet to build that list? What I'll show you in this podcast is how to go from being stuck on ideas for your lead magnet, to having a process for finding a winning lead magnet ideas over and over again.

San Francisco's Magic Theatre Artistic Director Loretta Greco talks about her friendship and work with the late playwright, actor, author, screenwriter and director, Sam Shepard, who passed away on July 27, 2017 at the age of 73.Transcript:Speaker 1: Method to the madness is next. You listening to method to the madness, a public affairs show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. I'm your host, Lisa Keifer. And today I'm speaking with Loretta Greco, the artistic director of San Francisco's magic theater. We'll be talking about Sam Shepherd, one of America's greatest playwrights who passed away this year, July 27th, 2017 at his [00:00:30] home in Kentucky due to complications of Lou Gehrig's disease at the age of 73. Sam Shepard spent a decade as playwright in residence at San Francisco's magic theater. Loretta, thank you for coming over here. My pleasure. And I just want to talk about Sam shipSpeaker 2: because I feel like if people pass away and then it's over, I have to talk about his work. And you actually worked with him for several years. How did you [00:01:00] meet? Well, I should back up and say that I had been reading about the magic theater in San Francisco my whole life. I grew up in Miami, went to school in New Orleans, Washington, New York. And it was because of Sam, uh, you know, uh, John Lyon gave Sam a residency there for 10 years, starting when starting in 74 to about 84. But that's where he wrote bury child and full for love and true West family trilogy, family trilogy, and probably [00:01:30] well undoubtedly plays that are going to go on forever. And, uh, and so when I got here 10 years ago, I started looking for Sam and he, he was, he, when you say you were looking for him drop, what do you mean?Speaker 2: Well, I mean, literally I got there and there was like no number, no, like it was there. It was a lot of fun tracking them down. And I finally, um, I went through his agent and Judy Dolan and she sort of was a great like guard dog. So I had to meet her and then she said, [00:02:00] Oh yeah, yeah, Sam will love you. And so, but you said you're on your own, you know, here's this number. You have my blessings, good luck. And, um, when we finally reached each other about five years ago, six years ago, he just, he was incredible. He was just so real. And so we, I was reaching it because I wanted to celebrate him while I was still around and you had just taken over the magic taken over. And I wanted [00:02:30] to do a shepherding America where we went through all of his major plays and, um, but I didn't want to do it if he didn't want to be a part of it.Speaker 2: And, um, so that's why I was reaching out to him. Boy, it was just something meeting him. He came out and he did an evening where he just read from his work and Lisa, it was incredible. And that's when we spent about five days together. And then, you know, he, he surprised me several times in San, like he'd just show [00:03:00] up. Um, and then if he was in New York and I was in New York, we would see each other there. So he was just, he was so incredibly kind and generous and I think, um, a lot of other things as well. But I think those are the things that you don't hear about him as much. Um, he's just incredible. Let's talk about his work just a bit because I feel like he's one of our greatest absolute rights. What is it that you find or found in his work that made you want to seek him out?Speaker 2: [00:03:30] Well, they're inexplicably, they are, um, not, they are plays that are not meant to be understood, fully digested, wrapped up in a big bow. They're works that are there to make you feel and to lean in. They're muscular, they're visceral, they're active, they are totally active. And um, I just, I got in a huge argument once with the patron, cause I said [00:04:00] Shepard is without a doubt our greatest American. Dramatist and um, you know, she took me on. What about Miller? What about Alby? And I said shepherd has been writing. He's, he wrote into his six decade, he wrote, since he was a little, you know, late teens, he wrote 55 plays. He wrote screenplays. He has five collections of pros, like the sheer magnitude and depth of that work. I mean there isn't [00:04:30] a canon like it. Actors kill to play these roles. I mean, you know you fell in love with them. I do. You know, through his work. I mean you can't, my introduction was true west and I was so blown over and then that led me down the path.Speaker 3: Are you crazy? You went to college [inaudible] you're rolling in the docks floating up and down in elevators and you want to learn how to live on the yaks. Yeah, I do [00:05:00] lake. Hey, there's nothing down here for me. There never was when we were kids here was different. There was a lights here then. No, no. I keep coming down here like it's the 50s or something. I get off the freeway and familiar landmarks. They turn out to be unfamiliar on my way to do these, these appointments. I wondered on the streets, I thought I recognized they turned out to be replicants as traits. I remember streets I mr member streets. I don't know if I lived out of her. If I saw [00:05:30] him in a scary field, the just don't exist. There is no point in crying about that as not been rammed down their lien. Please dear mommy, I can't save you and you can let me come with you guys. Let me come with the weight that I choose to live in the middle of nowhere. Huh? You think [00:06:00] it's some kind of philosophical decision I took. Boy, I live out there. Be Cold. I can't make it here.Speaker 2: Jessica Lange said that no man she had ever met compared to Sam. In terms of maleness, what do you think about that statement? You know, um, he had it going on until the last time I saw him and I saw him when he was sick. I said, what do you think she meant by this wellness? He is [00:06:30] profoundly male. He is. Um, first of all, he was a long, tall drink of water, man. He just, I'm, I'm five, nine and he made me feel small and that's great. And he's just, I mean, come on. He hunts. I, I can't, it's so [inaudible] reminds me of, he reminds me a lot of William Faulkner, the way they live, the way they drank their maleness. And what they said about [00:07:00] the myth of the American dream? Well, exactly. I mean, I think the thing about Sam was he was the iconic marble man.Speaker 2: I mean, he, he hunted, he, he, he smoked, he drank. He, um, he rode horses. He loved his horses, he loved his dogs. He, um, he was just incredible and he lived so long that he really did experience the west, that old mythic west and [00:07:30] the promise of the American dream. And then lived to see that promise reneged, you know? And so I think that, um, he also, he turned heads everywhere. He went. I mean, we'd be sitting in a diner and people would come up and say, are you Sam Shepard? And they'd be in their teens all the way to women, much more mature. Um, what was it like for actors to work under his direction? Did you [00:08:00] observe that? I knew several, and I think that actors loved him because, because a, he was an actor and a fine one, and he understood and respected the craft.Speaker 2: And so he guided with a loving, gentle hand, but he didn't get in people's way. He knew that if he laid a little path that people would find their own way. And so he wasn't a micromanager. He really [00:08:30] let people soar and find their own, their own journey to his characters. And he said once that he assumed that if you are, if you're doing this, and you must understand what I'm saying. Yes, yes. And speaking Sam's words like that's come on. Malcovich um, James Gammon, um, uh, uh, ed Harris, Kathy Baker. Um, these are people that were drawn to that [00:09:00] muscularity and lived for it. And it, I think that Sam and that work baked a kind of muscularity into the magic into Steppenwolf so that then it set the bar high in terms of what theater really was and what you needed to feel across the boards for it to be viable. And he never stopped writing.Speaker 1: If you're just tuning in, you're listening to method to the madness. Public Affairs [00:09:30] show on k a l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators. Today we're remembering Sam Shepard and talking with Loretta Greco, San Francisco's magic theaters, artistic director, Sam Shepard's association with the Magic Theater included 24 productions in total. He spent a decade as playwright in residence where he premiered his master works buried child, true west and fool for love. He returned in the year 2000 [00:10:00] to direct the world premier of his work, the late Henry Moss. And he had just written a fictional [inaudible]Speaker 2: book, which is kind of autobiographical in his last year. The one inside was published last January and he wrote it while he was sick, but he wrote it and it's astounding. The particle of dread was published a [00:10:30] couple months later. That was his re dreaming of Oedipus. And he did it in dairy Ireland with Steven Ray. It's an incredible script and his latest spy of the first person has just come out. It's being published months after his death. He was working on this as he was sick. He was recording it and he was dictating to Roxy and sandy has two sisters. And um, and it's my understanding [00:11:00] then his daughter. And, um, and then Patty Smith worked with them on both the last two novels to help that it, they go way back and they remained such close friends. And so, I mean, who does that? I mean I just, I opened this book, I wanted to look at the letters between Sam and Joe Chaikin before I came here and look at what he opens this with.Speaker 2: It's a Brecht who he loved Brecht and Beckett. This is [00:11:30] his opening quote. You can make a fresh start with your final breath. Oh, that's, that kills me. Yeah. He never stopped. The last time I saw him was the day before he left for Kentucky. I sat with Sandy and Roxie and Sam and my partner mark in Healdsburg. And um, Sam was writing, we talked about Beckett. We talked about where do you think the Beatles came up with the lyrics for blackbird? He was contemplating all these things [00:12:00] and he said to me, can you believe it? I'm still writing. I'm not stopping. I can't stop. I mean, I think this is the thing about Sam. He was profoundly himself from the beginning until the end. Flawed and damaged and chasing a dream of America that did not exist any longer and chasing the tail of his father.Speaker 2: And he did it honestly, humbly and painfully. And I love him for that. [00:12:30] He never made facades. He never hid. He was profoundly himself till the end. Yeah. What was your favorite of his works? Well, you know, it's funny, I would have, if we had talked a year and a half ago, I would've said Barry Child, because I have, I have loved that place since I read it 1978 and didn't know what the heck to make of it. And I kept reading and reading and I finally directed it and I thought, oh my gosh, it's like king lear. It's like you could direct it five times. Yeah. [00:13:00] Just start to, to grasp the, the depths of the meaning of that play. But I did full for love last year and I have to say, Lisa, it was like working on a Beckett play. When you work on Beckett, you think you know a little something and then you get in rehearsal and you realize you know nothing.Speaker 2: And every day it's like an archaeological dig and you learn a little more and you make a discovery and that leads to 17 other big deep questions. Working [00:13:30] on fool for love was one of the joys of my life because it was also, I mean, Sam never shied away from taboo. Right. So it's a love story about siblings and um, see this is where I see the Falkner connection. Yeah. Because the more you read say an Absalom, Absalom, you know, it's about incessant and family. It's about miscegenation. I mean it's about all these things and every time you read it you see something else, [00:14:00] a real artist. That's what you feel when you read it. It's new every time. Every time, every 10, it will be a new play. I really do feel like fool and berry child and true west, if there's a bottle that gets dug up centuries from now, those are going to be in it.Speaker 2: I mean, they're going to talk about who this country was and what, what our goals were, what our aims were and how broken hearted and yet undaunted the human American [00:14:30] spirit thing is. He got to appreciate the world's appreciation of him pretty early on. Like you say, when you met him, you sensed the honesty and the appreciation. He was one of the shyest people I'd ever met for him to do an interview for me to convince him to do an interview with Rob Harwood at the SF chronicle. I had to agree to come and sit with him and he, he detested post show talk backs. [00:15:00] He didn't want to talk about the work. He didn't, you know, if you asked him what is it about, he would say, Oh, if I knew I wouldn't have to. Right. And so he, he was uncomfortable in a way with the kind of fame, but I, you know, like [inaudible] I think he appreciated, the thing is he got that Pulitzer early, that was 79 for a play he wrote in 78 and [00:15:30] I think, you know, it's funny because he said to me once, I don't know what all the fuss is about those plays, they're just plays.Speaker 2: I wrote when I was a kid, you know, [inaudible] you know, but, but that wasn't him being self-deprecating. That's really what's really lad. And I mean he was so comfortable in his skin as a human being and as a male. But as a, as an actor, as a, as someone who was famous, I never saw him and joy that in the way [00:16:00] I did. Interesting that he moved easily between his literature and film and his acting and acting. You know, that's not easy for a lot of people to go in between those. I know. And, and it's interesting because he was up for an academy award the same year that he won the Pulitzer. And I think that the acting informed the writing and the writing informed the acting. And that's the thing about the writing. There's [00:16:30] not an extra syllable. I mean there just really isn't. And he wrote Paris, Texas and many other Oh, absolutely.Speaker 2: Films. So he really knew both sides of the camera. And I have to say the pros, his five collections of pros, um, motel chronicles and, and cruising paradise and dad of days and, and great dreams of heaven. Those, we would read them every day. Every time I was in rehearsal for live the mind for Barry Child for fool, for love, [00:17:00] for a big Sam Festival we did on a 70th birthday, we would start every day by opening the books and reading his prose, short little pieces that were all about this country and they are magnificent and a completely different discipline. That's one of the hardest, you know, that's one of the hardest short stigma. And I think, I think if there was one thing he wouldn't mind me saying is that he wanted [00:17:30] to crack the long form novel and he felt like he never did. He wanted to write something that was longer form and it just kicked his booty.Speaker 2: You know? And, and he talked about that several times with this before or after he had written the, the, the novel, the fictional, the novel, the, I'm one inside, and I haven't read this by the first person, but, or spy of the first person. But the one inside is like a little novella. It's, it's [00:18:00] naked. It is so unbelievably transparent about him and his dad, him and his dad, him and his women, him and his drinking. Maybe our listeners don't know about his relationship with his father. Maybe you can tell it was, um, I learned part of this from Sam. The last time I saw him. I didn't know that his dad was a Fulbright scholar. He told me his dad was a, was an absolute learn it man. And [00:18:30] he knew he was a bomber pilot. He went to war and he came back and, um, he, he was lost it to his dad and it really destroyed him.Speaker 2: Sam's, you know, his family was, you know, his mom was a rock and his, you know, his home was full of violence and alcoholism. His Dad, I mean, if, you know, lie of the mind, you know, it's a pretty, pretty, uh, close to Real, you know, [00:19:00] portrayal of how his dad died in the middle of a highway, run down drunk. And, um, and Sam will talk about it, you know, um, in, in, uh, in a variety of ways. But I think that his dad's heart ache and his dad's being destroyed and, and that being present in his household. I mean, Sam writes about finance and m knows it firsthand and I think that he wanted more time [00:19:30] with his dad. His Dad was a man of very few words and I think that Sam spent his entire life trying to figure him out.Speaker 4: Yeah. I grew up in this, this World War Two world where the women were continually trying to heal up the man, you know, and, and suffering horribly behind it. Now, I don't know why that came about, but I have a strong thing that had to do with World War II. These men returned from this sheer ROIC [00:20:00] victory of one kind or another, and entered this Eisenhower age and were devastated in some basic way. You know, I mean, almost all those men that, uh, that, that were of my father's generation seemed like they were devastated in a way that, that it's mysterious still and the women didn't understand it and the men didn't understand it. So the, the, the, uh, the medicine was booze for the most part. Boots. It suddenly occurred [00:20:30] to me that I was maybe avoiding a territory that I needed to investigate, which is a family and add voided for, for quite a while. Because to me it was, it was, it was a danger in, in, I was a little afraid of it, you know, particularly around my own man and all of that emotional territory. You know, I w I didn't really want to tip toe in there and then I said, well, maybe a better,Speaker 2: and he, he also [00:21:00] wrote about how you really never escape the past, the history. No, and I think that, you know, sometimes people think about him and his images stick dialogue, which is absolutely unparalleled. But for me, in all of these mediums, Sam is digging up our primordial pasts. He knows that you can't take a step forward without the ghosts of what came before. And he knew that as a young writer [00:21:30] and he never forgot it.Speaker 4: I do honor the ones that have come before me, you know? I mean, you know, it's ridiculous to think that you're, uh, you're, you're, you were born out of thin air. There's, there's, there's things that, uh, there's ancestors, you know, and uh, if you don't honor your ancestors in the real sense, [00:22:00] you, uh, you're committing a kind of suicide. Yeah.Speaker 2: Do you have a story that you can tell us about you and Sam that you wouldn't mind sharing maybe no one else in the world knows about? I'll tell you two things. One is that I had loved his writing for so long and when we finally met, I picked him up at the cleft. It's funny because I got him this beautiful sweet that was basically like an apartment [00:22:30] with views, almost three 60 of the city at the top of the cliff hotel. And I picked him up there and met him in the lobby and I was taking him to see a show and we would then spend almost a week together and get to know each other. But I was so nervous and he was nervous. He said he, he's, he was late and he said, I got in the elevator and I just couldn't figure out all those buttons.Speaker 2: And he said, next time I do not want to be in a fancy hotel, I want [00:23:00] to put me up in a Ho motel, right by the water, by the magic or just on the other side. And I was so nervous, Lisa driving him that I turned the wrong way on Franklin. I've been driving on Frank Lennon golf since I moved here. I knew one goes north and one goes south. I turned onto oncoming traffic. I was just beside myself. I was so nervous. There was no one in my life that I would have been more nervous about meeting. [00:23:30] And you know, we hung out in the theater and just talked and talked one day and I'll tell you, I just, I grew to love him and, and he, the thing about him is he was just profoundly real and he wanted to make sure I was too.Speaker 2: And so one time in New York I met him and I was supposed to go to a matinee and he just, we were supposed to have a quick tea. We ended up having lunch and just, and I asked him about Joe Chaikin and he started to talk about [00:24:00] making tongues and savage lab, which made it at the magic and with Joe and Lisa, his eyes brimmed with tears talking about how humbled he was to be in a room with Joe, let alone making something with Joe. And if you read their letters back and forth, you know, they had an extraordinary relationship. Betty talked about that time and then he, he started [00:24:30] talking about back at any, started reciting back at just off the, I mean off the cuff. And I was sitting there listening to his stories and I just, I thought, I don't ever want to get up. Like I just don't want to leave him. He loved making theater so much and he remained in awe of the masters and in awe of all those Irish cats. And [00:25:00] um, but him reciting back at that was, that was a highlight for me. Yeah, that's pretty great.Speaker 4: It's very interesting to me, aloneness. Very interesting. Because it's always this balance between aloneness and being a part of a community or a part of, you know, it's always been interesting from the very start is this exile. That's what Beckett is so powerful. I said, [00:25:30] you know, he's bad. It's all about Exxon. It's about banishment about being cut away. Uh, and then at the same time having to take part in it.Speaker 2: Since he had kind of a, well, he had a bad relationship with his father. Was he able to bridge that and get past that and have a good relationship with his own kids? I wish that I could speak to that personally. What I'll tell you is, man, he loved Jesse and Jesse loves him and I know all of his kids, [00:26:00] Anna and Walker. I mean they were there the whole time. And, and what I know is Sam speaking of them and he often said, it's, it's a wonder that Jessica and I turned out to have the greatest, most sane human beings ever and a miracle that Jesse is as extraordinary a man and father as he is. And Sam once said to me that just hearing the sound of his daughter's voice set him right every time. So I know, I mean, I [00:26:30] think that he was just, that he was mythic, that he was interested in things larger, you know, than a kitchen table story.Speaker 2: And I think, um, the size of him, the size of his is gonna live on. And I think that people are going to, when they think about the American spirit, I really do think they're going to call upon his, his Canon of work, which is unparalleled. Again, 55 plays five collections of prose. And he played [00:27:00] over 50 roles on film. Yeah, I mean it's just, there hasn't been an artist like him and I, I really don't think there'll be one. Again, are you going to be doing anything coming up? We're going to do something at the very end of the season to commemorate him. Mike, a big Rawkus memorial and when you say end of the season, but it would be in May. And then we're going to set an annual celebration of Sam on his birthday at the magic every November [00:27:30] 5th, and we're hoping it'll be like Bloom's day. Like everybody getting together to read Joyce on, uh, on Bloom's Day. We want to get together and just have a community where people just pick up Sam's work and read it aloud and that every year we can hear his words hit the air and be reminded of their power. Loretta, it's so great to talk to you about Sam Shepherd. Thank you so much for coming on method to the madness. You are so welcome.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: [00:28:00] go straight to heaven or hell.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: disintegrate into energy.Speaker 5: When you die, who are reborn into another body. When you die, you turn dished. When you die, you travel to other [inaudible]Speaker 2: planets.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: you get to start all over.Speaker 5: When [00:28:30] you die, get marked in the book. When you dry,Speaker 2: rejoined with your ancestors.Speaker 5: Where'd you die?Speaker 2: Oh, your dreams will come true.Speaker 5: When you die,Speaker 2: you speak to the angels.Speaker 5: When you die, he'll get what you deserve when [00:29:00] you die. It'sSpeaker 2: absolutely the finalSpeaker 5: when you die and never come back. When you die, you die forever. When you die,Speaker 2: it's the end of your life. You've been listening to method to the madness. A public affairs show on k a [00:29:30] l x Berkeley Celebrating Bay area innovators today show was all about Sam Shepherd. You can find all of our podcasts on iTunes university. We'll seeSpeaker 6: you in two weeks. [00:30:00] [inaudible]. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Why I am doing this podcast. What I'll be talking about. And the bet that got it all started.

Corrina's journey from dating guys to finding a wife...thanks to travel sickness! And of course the best food to help with travel sickness (in case you've already found your partner...)In addition to this story, at the end of this episode I'll share with you the best food for travel sickness (in case you've already found your wife or partner).OK enough hints from me, let's get on with the story.Our guest, Corrina Gordon-BarnesI am super excited to be joined here today for our story by Corrina Gordon-Barnes. Corrina is a Relationship Coach who’s committed to a world of happy couples and happy families. She teaches her clients how to be really good at relationships.So Corrina, welcome to the Clean Food, Dirty Stories podcast! I'm really excited to have you here today!Corrina: Thank you so much for inviting me to connect with you.Me: Oh well you're so welcome! I love your story and I really can't wait for us to share it with everybody.Corrina's story, starting with being boy madMe: Without further ado, the first question I wanted to ask you...and I've said a little bit about what you do now, but when you were small, or younger, how did you see your dream relationship one day? Did you have princess dreams or did you have a particular type of partner in mind before you actually met your life partner?Corrina: Well, I was boy mad.Me: Boy mad!Corrina: Boy mad, like going through my primary school years, I remember that I was the one in my class who learned about sex really early.I was the one who would get all these teenage magazines, even as a late primary school age kid, and I would be teaching my friends at school. “You can get pregnant the first time you have sex” and “be careful with your boyfriend”.Me: Oh my god!A relationship expert...in primary schoolCorrina: I was like this relationship expert, even at that age I was teaching my friends. Like “these are all the myths, don't do this, do this” and so I was kind of boy mad, I was relationship mad, and getting into my teens I remember with my friends we would literally kind of go out prowling the streets. We would walk along the high street in my town where I lived and we would be looking for boys and we would be kind of flirting and coy. There was always some boy that I had my eye on. Always some guy who had my attention, I would try and make sure I was in the same place as him so that he would see me...Me: Sounds familiar, yeah.So I was definitely, I definitely wanted boys. That was very clear to me.Me: And you got engaged to a boy at one stage, right?Corrina: Yeah, so I had one really long term relationship before I met who is now my partner, and we got engaged at age 17.Me: Wow!We were gonna get married and we were gonna have all these babies and we were gonna live in this particular kind of house and have this life... That was the path that I thought I was on at that age.Me: So then what happened to take you off that path?The path to self-discoveryCorrina: Well that relationship was not the right one, and so that ended 4 years later and I stayed then single for quite a while. You know, I was really wanting to find myself.So I went on this whole spiritual, personal growth journey. I read every book I could get, I did meditation, I went vegan... It had this whole kind of personal growth change in my life.Me: What do you think prompted that? Was it the end of that relationship that prompted that? I mean, what were your thoughts? Were you just like 'Oh I think I need to take care of myself more' or become a different person, or...?Corrina: I was in Australia and I was just there travelling for a year. And I met this guy – surprisingly enough – in a cafe, and he just said “Hey I go to this meditation course down the road, why don't you come along”.And so I went and that very first moment, that very first time in the room with that meditation teacher, she told me that I was a spiritual being. She said to me – to the whole group but I really heard this - “You are a spirit soul having this human experience, but you are a spiritual being”.And it was like someone had just told me who I was. Like “oh my gosh, that's who I am, this human life is how I get to journey and explore and have an adventure, but I'm a spiritual being”.The layers (or the clothes) fall awayMe: So did you have that as like an inner knowing, or how did you experience it? Because people experience those things in different ways, right? Some people experience a physical sensation of light, other people experience it as just an inner sense of knowing...Corrina: It was like all my clothes fell off.Me: (laughs) Um...I haven't heard that one before!Corrina: It was like this casing, this casing just fell off. I literally woke up the next morning and I was vegan, I went from a complete meat eater to being vegan overnight just like that, and I was just on this journey then to just explore and discover myself and get back to the essential nature of my being.It was like everything that wasn't true about me just kind of fell away over the coming months.Me: Wow. That's very cool!Corrina: Yeah, it was pretty cool. I felt much lighter, it was like clothes coming off. I was just light. I was much, much lighter, much more energized, much freer, much more joyful.Me: It's interesting that you say that for you, all your clothes coming off, like some people might associate that with being exposed, right? Being vulnerable. And for you, you associate that with being light. So that's really interesting.Corrina: And just free. I remember in Australia, those kind of days, weeks after that moment, it was like I was floating along the streets. I was so free, I was feeling so connected with people, like I had just woken up.On to Cambridge University...and a fated bus tripMe: Yeah. Wow! And so how did you get from there to Cambridge University?Corrina: Yeah, so I decided that I wanted to do teacher training so I came to Cambridge University and signed up for the English and Drama teacher training course here. And on that very first day in class, I was sat next to this woman called Sam. There was something about her that just immediately kind of, like something just...a light bulb went off or something just happened. It was like 'Huh, she's just come on my radar really strongly, why am I paying attention to her so much?'So she was really in my awareness and we were both in the same school together so we were both placed to do our teacher practice in the same school. And on the first day of teaching practice, I got onto the bus that would take us to our practice school and I got on and she was sitting in the front seat. Now I always need to sit in the front seat in a bus because I get travel sick. So I just went over to her...I'd already clocked her as someone who was on my radar, and I just said “Oh, are you OK if I join you in the front seat?” And she said “Yeah sure, I have to sit here because I get travel sick” and I said “Oh me too!”So we sat side by side and over the months to come we became best friends. Just absolutely clicked, became best friends, incredible support through the whole teaching practice.A brave declarationMe: And was there any like physical attraction at that stage? Or did that come later?Corrina: Immediately! Immediately, I was like 'Huh! What is this woman doing to me? What this? What is happening here? I just feel energized around her, she lights me up, I feel excited, I feel like the world is just kind of shinier...'Me: Wow!Corrina: Everything just felt brighter and more energized.Me: It sounds like a good, a good...I don't know, I mean, I've never like taken acid or anything but (laughs) it sounds like, you know, a positive drug experience without the drugs, right?Corrina: (laughs) Totally! Totally, a kind of 'switch-on, turn-on, I'm awake, I'm alive, oh my gosh, who are you' kind of thing.Me: Was it the same for her as well?Corrina: Well what was so funny was that over the months that then came, was that I basically told her (laughs). I just said “Basically I've realized that I'm just completely in love with you. Do you feel that too?”Me: Wow! That was so brave of you cause you were friends at that stage, right? Like best friends, you don't want to wreck your relationship with your best friend by taking the risk but you did!Corrina: I just did! And that's kind of, you know, the kind of continuity of the whole spiritual journey for me of just like I'm free. You know, I'm free. If I feel this thing, I have to follow my heart. I have to just blurt out like “I'm in love with you, I don't know if you feel the same way”. And to start out with, it wasn't something that she let herself feel straight away.Determined and keeping faithMe: So what did she say when you said this? When you blurted this out?Corrina: She said “You know, I feel really connected with you, I love you a lot as a friend, but it's not romantic for me”.Me: And how did that make you feel?Corrina: Oh, heartbroken. Absolutely heartbroken. But also there was something... it was almost like inside I was going 'You just wait!' (laughs) 'You just wait. I know that you're the one for me, I'll just be patient, I'll just hang on'.Me: Oh wow! Other people though could have had quite a different reaction, right? I mean some people might have, I imagine anyway, some people might have just, you know, stayed in the heartbroken phase and then just walked away, right? And lost it.Corrina: No, I believed, I really had faith that this... There was a reason I was feeling this way, I couldn't ignore it, I couldn't shake it, I just kept believing in it and stayed consistently just loving her and being a good friend in the months where... You know, it took 3 months basically of us staying friends and me just loving her, and loving her, and loving her. And then just after Christmas we got together as a couple.And just before Christmas...Me: And what happened? So how did that happen? Like you're friends, it's been like you know 3 months, she knows how you feel, did she just all of a sudden like make a move? Or did she say something to you?Corrina: Well, I made the move. Again.Me: (laughs) Oh my god! So it's like 'OK I've already been kind of rejected once, let me have another go'. Right?Corrina: Exactly! (laughs) Or a few gos! So there was that initial conversation and then there was another conversation where I basically said – this was just before Christmas – I basically said “Are you sure?”Me: Oh my god!Corrina: “I still feel this thing...” and she again was like “No really, we're just friends”. So that was the second time and then third time lucky! I just made a move and I thought 'You know what? I'm just gonna take a risk again, I'm just gonna be bold. What's the worst that can happen? Rejection, right? What's the best that can happen? I can be with the love of my life'.Me: Oh my god – yeah but that was still just so...Right, OK. That was still just so brave. Once is already like super brave, right? Braver than most people. Twice is like oh my god, you know, three times you start to think OK, hmmm...Corrina: Yeah, and it worked! (laughs) Third time lucky and it was just after Christmas and that was now 13 years ago – 14 years ago.What was she thinking?Me: And so what did she, like...You made the move and what did she then say? Was she like 'oh I didn't know until you touched me' or was she like 'oh I realized it at the same time as you' or was she...Corrina: I think it was less of a thought thing. It was just, you know, when it happened then it just felt right. Like 'oh this is where I was meant to be, OK, got it'.Me: And that's what she felt too? Was that how she verbalised it to you?Corrina: Well and to give her credit here, so she's gay and I'm bi, right? So for a gay woman, if a bisexual woman says 'I'm in love with you', there's gonna be a sense of 'hmm, OK maybe you're just trying this out, maybe actually this is just a kind of short-term thing for you and really you're gonna want to be with guys'Me: Yeah, I've heard that, yeah.Corrina: So it's a real credit for her that for those months she was, you know, guarding her heart for that, because you don't know what's gonna happen, if that person declaring their love for you is gonna be constant. So I had to kind of prove that actually I meant it. When I said I loved her, I meant it and I was gonna be in it for the long haul.Me: So do you think that a part of her was not testing you, but kind of like unconsciously perhaps waiting? You know?Corrina: Yeah.Me: Oh OK, that makes a lot more sense. Cause in my mind I was imagining somebody who, you know, was neither gay nor bi and who maybe had, I don't know, only gone out with guys or something and so then for somebody like that it would be much more of a 180, right?Corrina: Yeah, no she's gay through and through.Me: Well, fortunately for you as it turns out, right? (laughs)How relevant is gender, anyway?Corrina: Well that's the thing for me as a bisexual woman. For me it's not about the fact that I like men and women, it's the fact that I like people and the gender is just irrelevant.And that's kind of part of what happened in that spiritual awakening moment in Australia. It was like all of the coverings, you know, whether it's our bodies or our personalities or any of that is kind of what covers the essence of us. And actually for me the essence of someone doesn't have a gender. So I fell in love with her like I might have thought or indeed fell in love with guys in the past because I just fall in love with the person, you know, that essence of the human beings behind all the trappings.Me: That's amazing because I feel the same way. It's kind of weird how that works, right? It's kind of like yeah, you feel the essence of the person. I mean I even had one guy say to me – this was like in a totally different context and we did not get together in the end but I do remember him saying to me at one point, I mean he wasn't the right person for me but he was kind of freaked out at one stage. Because he was like “It's like you want my soul!” and I was saying “It's not that I want your soul, it's that I see it!” I believe that I see it, right?And I think that you know, some people... I mean, credit to Sam as well because she's obviously a really strong person too in that, you know, some people would be freaked out by that, right? Some people would be like 'oh well...it's the real me here that's being...I don't know if I want to say exposed but seen, right? Some people...we use those trappings to cover stuff up, right? As we all know, so...That brings a level of intimacy that's probably quite cool I would imagine, right?Corrina: Yeah, and you know, don't get me wrong, I love that she's a woman as well. I love her long hair and her soft skin and her blue eyes, all the things that make her a woman as well I love. So it's not like I don't see those things, but that was never gonna be a filter, like I would only go for...The spectrum of sexualityMe: Yeah. I mean it's really interesting because I...for me, I'm sure, I would imagine perhaps for you as well, I see the whole homosexual/heterosexual thing as this big spectrum and I have a really good friend who...Well I do playback theater and one of my friends, she's in a playback theater troupe where they're all either bi or gay or whatever, and then we did a workshop at one point. They were inviting guest playbackers to go. And one of the exercises they did that was...I just thought it was really cool. They said 'put yourself...if stage left is like totally 100 percent gay and stage right is totally 100 percent heterosexual, put yourself on the spectrum, place yourself physically where you think you are'. And it was really cool to see people, you know, all along the stage, all at different points. I just thought that was very normal, right? Because we're all...for me, anyway, in my mind we're all spiritual beings and so as you say, there's no gender there, right?Corrina: And for some people there are. You know, that's the thing, people who are that kind of 100 percent on the spectrum, brilliant, they're really clear that they only want people of the opposite or the same sex. Yes, spectrum is beautiful.What Corrina does nowMe: Yeah, wow! So now I really want to know more then about how... (laughs)...how you went from, well, what you do now to help people with their relationships. Because obviously you have a lot more knowledge than when you were in primary school and I know you're helping people with a lot more than how to not get unwanted pregnancies and things! (laughs)Corrina: (laughs) Absolutely!Me: So what do you do now with people and how do you help them have these beautiful, deep relationships?Corrina: Yeah, and my work is around all relationships that are important. So it's...my clients, some of them it's really about their partner relationship but for others it's about their relationship with their mom or their daughter or their brother.For me, connection...it's a kind of cliche but connection is what we're hard wired for. We as human beings love to connect, we love to love people with our full hearts. But there are so many things that stop that from happening within us. We get resentful, we get frustrated, we get disappointed, we feel let down, we feel indignant, all of this.And I over the course of my own personal journey have found a very, very miraculous way of dealing with all those blocks. So it's the process of questioning your thoughts, questioning your stories, that block connection.An example of our made-up storiesSo let's say I'm with Sam and let's say she's saying something that sounds critical. My story in my head goes, 'she's criticizing me, she doesn't love me, she's being mean to me'. You know, 'I want her to be kind, I want her not to point out my flaws', all of that. That is all story. It's all mental. It's all...Me: Yes! It's all made up.Corrina: It's all made up! And we don't realize it, we think, 'no but this is true, she's criticizing me, this is what's happening'. And so what I am so blessed to have come into contact with a number of years ago is the process of questioning those thoughts. Just sitting with those thoughts and asking them, 'Is this true? Is this accurate, is this the correct interpretation of what's going on?' Not just is it true that that's what's going on, but is it true that I would be better off if it were happening differently?Me: OK...Corrina: Like am I sure? So let's say your loved one is truly critizing you. They're saying to you “you're a stupid, ugly, whatever, whatever”. Can I be sure that my happiness depends on them not saying that? Can I be sure that I can only feel good about myself and peaceful if they stop doing that? Because it sets up a very limited version of life if I'm always waiting for someone else to give me something, to give me what I think I need in order to be peaceful and happy. It's like I delay my peace and my happiness until other people and other circumstances arrange themselves in just the right way.Our rules...and our scriptsMe: Yeah, it's like our rules, right? Where we all have these rules about what has to happen for us to be happy and the more...the easier it is to be happy, then the happier we are, right?Corrina: Exactly, exactly. I talk about our scripts. It's like, I realized pretty early on with Sam that I had a script, that if she followed this script and she said and she did exactly what I, you know, expected her to do then I would feel happy, but if she went off script then I wouldn't be happy, I'd be pissed off. She really helped me see this, she said to me one day “Why don't you just give me your fucking script Corrina! Give me your script, tell me what I need to do”. And I was like “How dare you! This is just what you're meant to do, you're my wife, this is how you're meant to treat me”. Then it kind of dawned on me a few days later, like 'oh my gosh, my script is the source of all of my unhappiness. Every moment that I want her to be doing something other than what's reality, I am causing my own unhappiness'.Corrina's 'big work'Me: Right. So then your relationship was, I guess, far from...I don't want to say far from idyllic, but you had to work through some of this stuff in your relationship with Sam?Corrina: One hundred percent. I wouldn't be doing this work if I hadn't had to...if this hadn't been my big work. You know, so yes like I was completely besotted with her in the beginning, and we got together and it was blissful, and then all my stories started to kick in. 'Hmmm, well she's not this' and 'hmmm, she said that and that's not OK' and 'would I be better off with someone who did this' and you know, all those stories eroded what I had imagined would be this perfect relationship. So it's like I had to work on that, I had to take those stories and stop those stories from sabotaging this beautiful relationship that we had underneath all those stories.Me: Yeah. It's good that you managed to do that, thank goodness, right?Corrina: I mean, it saved my marriage. It saved my relationship.A daily practiceMe: And did it take a long time?Corrina: Yeah, it's a daily practice. It really is a daily practice, it's like if you want to be fit, like you've done today (laughs), you go to the gym, you go for a run, you do your yoga. You don't just be like 'oh I'll do it one time and then it's done'. If you want a healthy, thriving, fit relationship with anybody, whether it's your son or your dad or your sister, there's daily practice to do. There's daily work to do every time you get triggered, every time something gets in the way of you being totally, wholeheartedly connected with the human being in front of you, you've got something to look at there.Me: Yeah, but at least you can...I mean, what am I trying to say, there comes a time when you catch yourself, right? At least, you know, having done a certain amount of work, then you can get to the point where you see what's happening, right? As an observer almost and you can go 'OK hang on, I'm doing this again, this is my script'. Whereas at the beginning, you know, when people aren't even aware of their scripts, I imagine it takes them a little bit... well it depends on the person I guess, right? How much time it would take them to start to see and to start to implement I guess the tools that you give them, right?Corrina: Absolutely, yes, you're completely spot on.When you get triggeredAnd you know, now I'm at the point where I get triggered and it could be like anything, right? It could be I'm on Facebook and I see a message from someone and I feel like 'oh they should have, you know, complimented me rather than give me negative feedback on something'. Right? Instantly, 'oh! OK, there's a trigger! A button's gotten pushed'. And now I'm at the point where I'm like 'Oooh, good, what's here for me?'Me: I do the same thing, that's really funny! Yeah, I had something that happened the other day that made me so angry and then I'm like 'OK if this is making me this angry and, you know, the other 30 people in the room are not angry, they actually think it's quite cute...' (laughs)We all get triggered, even by 8-year old authorsI'll tell you what it was, it was quite funny. I was at this day workshop with an amazing speaker and there was this little girl, she's like 8 years old and she's written a book. Actually she's written 3 books, right?Corrina: Wow!Me: And it made me so annoyed! And I just thought...you know, not only envious, obviously envious, you know, 3 books at age 8, but also annoyed because, you know, her mom was there and I knew what it was. It brought up all the old scripts of, you know, stage mothers because I did theater before and so I had a good friend who had a stage mother who was just absolutely unbearable whereas, you know, my mom was the opposite.So I see what you mean, you get these reactions, right, that are completely irrational because the people around me were applauding her and they were like 'oh isn't that wonderful' and I was like inside going 'this is making me so angry!' But we all get triggered, don't we, right?Examples of tiny triggersCorrina: Oh, everyone. And it could be like the tiniest thing, that's what I always find fascinating. It could be just one line in an email. Or it could be just the way that your partner, you know, turns over in their sleep, just the tiniest little things. Often my clients say to me “Oh, you know, I can't bring this to you today, it's just so small” and I'm like “No, no, that's exactly what to bring!”. The fact that he put tofu in the stir fry rather than kidney beans, you know. There was something, there was some offense against you. So there you are with that 8 year old girl, that offense that she's committing against you in that moment that's kind of violating something is like, you know, 'she's further ahead than me' or 'she's achieved one of my life goals' or, you know...Me: Yeah, and she's 8 and I'm 55!Corrina: And she's 8! It's just to be so compassionate with ourselves that 'oh look, there's this part of me that feels in some way threatened or violated or hurt by this, let me just so lovingly look there and heal that part of myself'.Being compassionate with yourselfMe: Ah, yeah, that's a really key point there that you brought up so I just wanted to emphasize it, yeah. That being compassionate with that part of ourselves, right? Rather than being like, OK, you know, with that kind of...what's the word, forced smile on our faces, going 'Ah, another beautiful part of me to transform', you know (laughs), right? Right? And we can be quite hard on ourselves with that, right, and be like 'OK what's at the bottom of this!' and take a kind of like pickaxe to it. At least that's what I would do or could do rather than choosing to as you say, acknowledge with love that part of ourselves and treat it as part of, you know, part of the inner child or whatever you want to call it, that needs love and compassion. That's a really interesting point that we don't want to forget. Wow! That's very cool.How to work with CorrinaSo when you work with people, I would love to hear just a bit more about what the different ways are that you...Do people come to see you in an office, or do you do things online, or how does that work?Corrina: Yes, so right now it's one to one. There's a potential of me offering something else in the kind of group workshop, retreat way, but not for now. What I do is I do free videos, everyone can just watch a free video every week, all about relationship hotspots and how to move past them, and then if people feel inspired and really like they're wanting that support, they can have the one to one coaching. And for now that is by Skype or by phone, and I'm just starting to also offer that in person as well for people who I'm unable to physically meet with.Me: Yeah. That's really fantastic, well thank you so much. What I'll do is, I'll link to everything that you do in the show notes but where's the best place for people to look online to find out more about what you're doing and more about you and to get access to the videos and things?An online video library...and a 7 Day Relationship ChallengeCorrina: Yeah, so if they go to corrinagordonbarnes.com, I'll just spell that out, and if you go to the blog page that's where I've got all the videos and articles that have happened so far. So that's a really good place just to go, it's like settling into a library of relationship wisdom and gems, just settling in and watching some of the videos and just seeing if the approach makes sense to you.The right people for this work are people who watch a video and go 'oh my gosh, that makes so much sense!' And they apply that tip that I'm sharing and they come back and they say “Wow I had this incredible experience with my mom! Because I did the thing that you...” I do like challenges in the video so they're like “I did the challenge that you set and I had a completely different experience with my mom this week, thank you!”Me: That's brilliant!Corrina: It's so good, it's so satisfying. So on the blog page that's where people can look at all the videos so far. And on the homepage people can sign up for the free 7 Day Relationship Challenge.7 days to feel more connectedMe: That sounds intriguing for sure!Corrina: Yes! It's 7 days to feel more connected, that's the overarching focus. How can you feel more connected? That beautiful feeling of just wholehearted connection with the person in front of you, and I give a number of challenges that you can actually implement to help you feel that way.Me: That is really fantastic! Well, I mean yeah, because as you say, we're all starving for connection and I mean, we could do a whole episode just about the different ways people connect, right? Through food and smoking and alcohol, and, you know, apart from people, right?Corrina: Facebook!Me: Facebook! There's so many...it's a massive, massive topic but...so I wish we had more time! But thank you so much for being here to share your story, because I love your story and I love your journey and I really, really love what you're doing right now, so I'm really grateful that you took the time to share that with us, so thank you so much!Corrina: You're very welcome, thank you so much!A food to help with travel sicknessSo now I mentioned at the beginning of this episode that I'd share with you one of the best foods you can eat for help with travel sickness. And I think it will come as no surprise for most of you anyway to hear that that food is...ginger!Ginger has so many benefits it's ridiculous. Not only can it help with travel sickness, but it's also beneficial for other causes of nausea, like morning sickness, and it can help with pain relief as well.Why ginger is so helpfulSo this powerful little root contains loads of antioxidant and antiinflammatory compounds, including curcumin and capsaicin which are also found in turmeric which is another superfood. They're part of the same plant family, turmeric, ginger and cardamom.Ginger also contains a ton of vitamins and minerals, including calcium, potassium, magnesium, phosphorus, niacin, iron, zinc and folate. A big list, right?And ginger is a great way to warm us up, because it's a diaphoretic (that was my new word for today), which means that it heats the body from the inside out. So if you live in a cold climate for example, ginger can literally help warm you up inside. It also helps promote sweating, which is why it's so good to have ginger tea if you've got a cold and you need to sweat out some toxins.Ginger even helps with pain reliefBut did you know that ginger can also help with pain relief? Two examples are exercise-induced muscle pain (so if you work out, eat some ginger), as well as menstrual cramps. So the next time you're feeling crampy (I don't know if that's a word but I've just decided it is!), make yourself some strong ginger tea and see how you feel.Ginger can also help reduce inflammation, so scientists are looking to see if it can help with cancer, and particularly colon cancer. Ginger also is showing promise for helping treat that as well as inflammation caused by osteoarthritis.I'll link to an article in the show notes that has more information about ginger's many properties and benefits, it also includes links to the actual research in case you'd like to know more about that. And in addition I'll link to an article that has some overall tips for avoiding travel sickness, including using ginger.So how do you eat ginger?If you're feeling nauseous and you want instant relief, well, you can definitely try peeling the root and gnawing on a piece...although I haven't done that myself. Ginger's pretty strong stuff.What I do is I usually juice a small piece of ginger with some carrots and apples for a really zinging morning juice. It tastes really, really good. Or you can pop a piece into your blender with other veggies and maybe some fruit for a green smoothie or a soup to give it a bit of a zing. It also helps you use less salt because it's got a really strong flavor.Other people prefer to slice a few pieces into some very hot water and let it steep for a while with a slice or two of lemon to make ginger tea.And you can also grate ginger into soups, curries and other savory dishes. Or even just chop it finely and use it in stir-frys.I'll link in the show notes to some recipes that I've got in my 5-Minute Mains recipe ebook that use ginger too, such as my Green Thai Curry.One thing for sure that I definitely recommend is that you use fresh ginger root wherever possible, rather than powdered ginger or capsules. I say that because the fresh vegetable is so easy to use and it's always best I think to have the actual vegetable rather than some dried out version in a plastic capsule. But then again if capsules are all you have access to, better that than no ginger!If you do try something new with ginger, definitely share in the comments because I want to know!Have YOU got a story to share?Which brings us to the end of this week's story – and if you've got a true story to share (and you'd like to know what food could have saved the day in your situation), I'd love to hear from you!Got a question, or a comment?Got a question, or a comment? Pop a note below in the comments, that would be awesome. You can also subscribe to the podcast to listen 'on the go' in iTunes.I hope you have an amazing day. Thank you so much for being here with me to share in my Clean Food, Dirty Stories. Bye for now!RESOURCESLink to 5-Minute Mains and other recipe ebooks: https://rockingrawchef.com/5-minute-recipes/Article with nutritional information on ginger as well as links to scientific studies: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/265990.phpArticle with general tips to help with travel sickness: http://mentalfloss.com/article/78131/9-scientifically-proven-ways-prevent-motion-sicknessCorrina Gordon-Barnes is a Relationship Coach who’s committed to a world of happy couples and happy families. She teaches her clients how to be really good at relationships – how to love full-heartedly, let go of resentments, forgive, accept and live from power not victimhood. She lives in Cambridge, England with her wife, Sam.Corrina's website: http://corrinagordonbarnes.com Corrina's Feel More Connected: a FREE 7-day Relationship ChallengeCorrina on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube

Welcome To Another Bloody Movie Podcast. On my inaugural episode, I discuss who I am, What I'll be doing on this Podcast and a couple of Quick movie reviews of Passengers and Assassin's Creed. *If you don't want to hear Spoilers for Passengers, skip to 13.41

In episode #33 we discuss how to structure your funnel based on what stage of growth you're currently in. You should be focusing on different sales funnels and strategies based on your strategic goals, and in this episode we break them down into the "profitability" and "maximization" stages. You'll even get to hear my upcoming plans for a new business I'm partnering in, how I just made a client $70,000 in a week doing a tiny launch to his own list, and so much more! Check it out, share it and let me know what you think! Want To Work With Me? Visit http://www.JeremyReeves.com or email me at Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com Enjoy! Transcript Hello, everybody. This is Jeremy Reeves and I'm back today with another episode of The Sales Funnel Mastery Podcast. So today this is going to be another fairly short episode. I'm actually flying in one of my employees from Italy this weekend, actually might do a podcast with him, maybe we'll go out and have a few drinks and we'll come back and do a podcast I think that'll be fun, actually. So one of the things that we're doing is strategizing a whole bunch of stuff for the growth of business and kind of the direction we're headed, the vision, all that kind of stuff that makes really, really big changes. If you've been following me, you know that this year has been I've made more huge changes that I've ever have and we're make even more. And the cool thing is all of them have to do with getting better results for our clients which is kind of awesome. So when is think that we're going to be doing is putting some systems in place get guest podcasts, guest interviews on the podcast. So that's one thing coming up to the podcast. We're going to be doing it a little bit more frequently -- that kind of thing. So with that said, what we're going to be talking about today, a lot of people get kind of stuck -- they don't really know what to do with a business, they don't know how to structure, what they should do first, what does she do second -- that kind of thing. I just brought in a new client and me and him are actually doing a revenue share deal which is basically -- I get them to send me basically an upfront fee for the initial (01:59) and then instead of doing a flat fee, so you know, I'm going to be doing A, B, and C for you, you're going to send me X dollars. We do upfront fee plus revenue share. So I'm just kind of struggling to strategize what were gonna do for you in -- that kind of thing. It made me realize that a lot of people kind of don't know how to build their funnel in stages and this idea also came because a lot of clients come to me and I don't know if we should kind of do a mini funnel first, get that profitable and into a bigger one or if we should just do it all at once -- you know, that kind of thing. So basically, there are two different ways of doing it. The step that I recommend, or the stages, you can call it, number one is the first thing you should do, you should be (02:52) about this, basically profitability and then maximization. When I'm talking with clients, if you come to me you should know that I don't push giant funnels right from the beginning if it doesn't make sense for the client. What I usually do is kind of the stage 1 profitability funnel and the stage 2 maximization funnel. And that's because. I mean, number one, I want case studies -- that's why I have a million and a half case studies and get the results that we do is because we do it in steps that make it kind of easy wins. The first stage is getting to profitability. Most businesses that I've come in contact with are already profitable what is just like taking it from whatever it is to essentially more profitability and the first thing that I always look at is you have all these different leverage points in your business you have all these key levers and what I look at is where are all the opportunities that you're not taking advantage of? For example, this new client that came on, his name is Nick. One of the first things that I'm going to do for neck is that he get tons and tons and tons of visitors to website and people that come on to his list -- he has almost like a cult-like following, so people that come on to his list tend to buy in pretty large percentages. So the problem with that is that he has a hard time getting people on his list -- he's not doing very much to get people on to his list. So step number one is going to be get people on his list. Another thing is that his prices -- he's getting a 70 to 80% close rate on his packages that he sells (I'm not going to get into too much information about it just for, you know, right privileges) just say 70% of client which is too high. If you're selling basically over 50-60% of people, it means your prices aren't low enough. So the first thing is that we're going to be implementing new packages for him to sell. That are probably going to be 50-100% bigger from then they are right now. I don't know exactly how I'm going to structure that you know it might just be "it was this and now it's this". More than likely, I'm going to give him choices. So instead of "okay, it's for coaching sessions for for whatever thousand dollars or whatever it is" -- I don't even... I forget the prices on top of my head. I'm going to do something like 4 packages for $1,000 or you can buy 8 for $2,000 or whatever it is so kindly give them tiered approaches and then there's all kinds of things will do with that. We'll have some decoy offers in there. We'll make it so that if they go for the higher end package, it's this complete no-brainer badass offer -- that kind of thing. Those are just two -- there's a lot more that I'm going to do with them and I may able to do a future podcast about it but for now, that's just kind of two examples of easy wins that we're going to go after so that's the type of stuff that I'd like to do with clients first. You know, sometimes, depending on the client that I'm working with, I actually do a little promotion for them in the beginning. For one example, actually a promotion that I just did 2 weeks ago, the client came on (and I like to get client's an ROIs as fast as we can) so what we did was we just did a promotion to his list, he had a monthly membership, and I said "hey, why don't we just do a quick promotion, get you some money in the bank", (and I actually got a percentage of that too), so I said "instead of me charging you, I'll just just take a percent of the sales", and it was actually a pretty large percent in that case. So what we did was we did a promotion and took his monthly subscribers -- he had them on a monthly, like 37 bucks a month, and we really made a good offer for them to upgrade to the yearly that's all we did. So it's nothing complicated, it's nothing fancy. In fact, we could have done a way better job just in terms of what the offer was but that was his easy opportunity. He he was able to get basically 12 months of revenue from the subscribers at least not even close to his 12 months of revenue but we were able to kind of pull that in in a week so I made a little over $70,000 in a week. It was actually a 60000, rough numbers, 60 grand from people that upgraded and another 20 in potential people from people who took a trial offers that we did and 50% of them, roughly, they (07:55) with the trial. That could've been better but we had some PayPal issues and some random credit card issues -- things like that. So bottom line is that I made him $70,000 in a week before any other thing was done. So whatever he does, we're kind of figuring out what the next steps are now, but that gives him a big cash influx to then put towards more copy or better strategy for building whatever funnel we're going to do. So that's what I mean by getting profitable. Basically, what you want to do is, regardless of where you're at, if you're not doing as well as you should be and you're having a hard time getting paid traffic to work, you're just kind of struggling, you're floundering, sometimes things work, sometimes it doesn't, it's not consistent. If you're in any kind of service or really, product business too, you're having that roller coaster income -- where your income is kind of like it dips down, and then the next month it's high, it dips down, next month it's high, dips down -- you know, that kind of thing. What you want to do is get the funnel in place just to get it profitable, get it? So that it can sustain you. Don't worry about getting this complicated, fancy funnels and survey funnels and really advanced segmentation -- and that kind of thing. I actually have a new webinar about taking to the second level, the next level, you know the maximization. But if you're struggling a little bit right now, don't worry about that because what happens is -- and its not that I don't work because it obviously works but that's the second level -- what happens is -- and I see this over and over and over and over again -- people get stuck they see it and it's like "oh my god, that's just too much I can't do it", and mentally, it just paralyzes you. You can't figure out how to get everything done, if you're coming to someone like me, it's too expensive -- you know, that kind of thing. And then it just never gets done and then a year goes by and you're at the exact same place that you are right now. When people come to me, I try to not get them to fall into that indecision trap. What I'll typically say is that "okay, let's just get a simple funneled out", and that differs a lot between various businesses but let's just say it's just like a typical landing page and you have a retargeting coming back to that and then you have a sales letter with a free trial exit pop-up, you have some prospect emails, you have some buyer emails and a couple of upsells -- like that's a pretty typical upsell funnel. If you're offline, maybe you add in some radio ads or newspaper ad or direct mail or you know, that kind of thing. If you're some kind of service, you add what I call ' Pre-engagement Framing Sequence' which is basically before people talk to you, you're kind of like pre-selling them on the call to talk to them like for a free consultation or whatever so it looks different from between the different businesses but the thing is if you are not already doing really, really well, we want to focus on that is just getting to that point where are you can sustain your self, you have a little bit of cash to invest back in the business, you can buy paied traffic -- that kind of thing. So you just get it to that point first and then what you do is you move on to -- you look at it again and say "okay, now that we're here, what are the new opportunities?" because when every time you change something, new opportunities are going to pop up. So now, maybe you realize that you have a very specific segment of the market that is willing to pay you more, like, you can kind of break down what you do and give a service to a very specific segment of your market. So what you do in that point, now we're in stage 2, the maximization part, is, well, maybe you have a really high-end coaching program, so let's just say you have the coaching program, just for example, for 2,000 hours, what are the parts of stage 2 might be looking at the opportunity that you have a segment of that market that is willing to pay you 4 to 5 times more money for a very much more specific service that gets them really fast, really good results. And you might be able to not with a coaching program that's instead of 2 or 3 grand, maybe its 8 or 10 grand I need you a launch for them -- so you're basically splitting them up and then maybe move on and you segment people in the beginning of the funnel based on their interests and then that increases not only your front end conversion rates, but it also increases your lead rate ratio. So if you're closing just say 2% of people before, maybe you'll get that up to 3% or whatever the case is. And then you can add in you know things like behavioral emails and that's a thing I do a lot, you can add in a different automated webinar, usually that's kind of step number 1 for service businesses at least. You can add in higher-end services, you can add in direct mail, you can add in doing phone calls two people who just bought, to new customers. You can add in different upsell packages interplay what you're doing is finding smaller and smaller -- you're getting more segmented as you go. So that's kind of the big thing with step number 2 -- it's segmentation and just looking and it comes with a lot more strategy now that you're kind of moving up to like and upper echelon of business and instead of just trying to make it work, now you're trying to kind of sky rockets the business and really take it to scale. So you're doing all these things, maybe add in more upsells depending on what pages they buy or they go to -- you know, they're getting emails, they're getting different sequences and that there's a lot more that you can do with that. I have the kind of breaks it down for you. So again, kind of a summary of everything is that if you're in this phase right now where you're doing okay -- you know, you're doing well but you're not doing great, then we want to do is really hone in just get your funnel in place. Spend somewhere between like 5 to 8 to, like, $15,000 for sale getting your funnel in place now as a stage 1 funnel. You know, those are the prices that I would charge for, something in that range, again, it differs tremendously but then once you go past that, what I do with clients is that once we see the results, is like "okay, now you're doing really well", why don't we take that to the next level?" So then we go back and we say "okay, what does stage number 2 look like for you?" and then we go back and we restructure the funnel and say "okay, we're going to add in -- we're going to do a survey up here -- we're going to split them into three segments for autoresponder series, we're going to redo the sales letters, we're going to split the sales letters up so instead of having one general sales letter, you have one for each of those segments that we found out on the back and also we're going add in a high-end service so we're going to do a webinar for that, for all the buyers and then also all the prospects who don't buy and we retarget them into that webinar, we'll do a postcard campaign for all buyers that sends them to that webinar and then we'll reach out maybe to specific people based on their behaviors, what they're doing in the website" -- so all that stuff. And then we kind of retool it so you go from where you are now to stage 1 which is doing well, you're sustaining yourself, you're growing but not quite at the piece that you want to, and then you move on to stage 2. And that's when things really fun because then you start looking a lot more at your Analytics, you start breaking things down into hyperresponsive segments and all that stuff and you really start honing in on your back end and then once in that stage you kind of focus from -- most businesses want to be profitable on the front end and it's a giant mistake. It's okay in the beginning if you're just trying to get into that sustainability, that's stage 1 -- you know, a lot of businesses are at, but if you really want you scale it, we want to do is get to break even on the front end and then let your back end take care of all your profits and I know it all sounds kind of counter-intuitive but it's pretty much what every giant company in the world does whether you want to believe it or not but yeah it allows you when you break even on the front end, allows you to go after a more broad audience and then you use all the automation tools and all the different segmentation tools and things like that break it down so that you can go after a broad audience that you're still talking to them in a very specific way that allows you to attract, acquire the most amount of customers I'm trying for less than your competitors are or you're basically spending more money to acquire each customer because you have the backend to them, make up for it that's basically how you go from stage 1 to stage 2. Okay? So I thought that was pretty long-winded, I hope that helps and if you were -- you know, a lot of people on this podcast I get tons of people who listen to this and they get in touch with me because they want me help them build their sales funnel so if you are a little bit confused -- you know, kind of what funds you need the started going from where you are from point A to point B or if you just didn't know, if you're trying to do this all on your own and you just didn't know how to structure it cuz there's a million and a half different ways to structure a sales funnel -- I hope that gives you a little bit of clarity. If you're getting a lot out of this podcast, I have two requests actually, cuz I never really ask, but if you're enjoying this podcast, I just wanted to ask you to leave me a review. You just go to iTunes or whatever you listen to and leave a review for the podcast and then shoot me an email I'll find something to give to you for free I don't even know what it is right now but I'll send you something I'll look through my files, maybe if I have an old product in there but I don't sell anymore -- something like that -- I'll shoot you something for free, kind of like a surprise thank you gift. So again, go on iTunes and leave a review on how the podcast has helped you. That's going to help me -- again, I want to do a bigger push two kind of grows a podcast so that's pretty much the biggest thing that's going to help -- so again, if you getting value out of this, which I know a lot of you do because I get emails all the time, then I would really appreciate if you would go in -- it only takes 30 seconds to leave a review. And the reason actually why I'm saying this is because I actually left review for somebody else. So go ahead and do that and also if you are interested in building a funnel, just shoot me an email. It's Jeremy@JeremyReeves.com, let me know that you're a podcast listener that always helps, I always like to know what parts of my marketing are working well and that kind of thing. So just get in touch with me, let me know where your business is at right now, where you're looking to take it, that kind of thing and will hop on the phone and see if me and you are a fit and yeah we'll go from there and I know I'm doing a lot of exciting things for clients and then after this week we're actually -- one of the things on our list is creating an unforgettable experience for clients so it's going to be pretty badass. So anyway, I hope you enjoyed this, look forward to another podcast episode -- probably in the next week or so. Again, I'm probably gonna end up doing a kind of a drinking podcast with one of my employees, Shaun. So that's going to be pretty interesting. So yeah, I will see you and make sure you tune in and also, by the way, I got a question a couple of days ago about somebody -- he wanted to know how to get updates of the podcast when I do new podcast episodes and one of the ways to do that is just go and get on my list cuz I always send that on broadcast email, when I have a new podcast out. So just do that and I have a lot of cool stuff on the site. I have webinars, I have free reports, and stuff like that. So just kind of get on my list somehow and whatever sounds cool to you and then you can go ahead and you'll get emails when I have a new podcast. And and then also if you have a podcast player on your phone, then it should update automatically, okay? so that's it for me today, I will talk to you soon and again, number one - leave a review, number two - get in touch if you want help building your funnel, and then number three - go to our website www.JeremyReeves.com and sign up for everything if you want to get updates from when I launch a new podcast. Alright! I will talk to you soon. Bye!

Introducing Geek To GuruMP3 download: http://www.archive.org/download/PeteFordGeekToGuruEpisode0/Ep0.mp3Topics covered:Who this podcast is forWhat I'll be covering, in general terms