Podcast appearances and mentions of james i'm

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing. Today, I've Cody Payne and Michael Tran from Colliers International out of Dallas market. Hey guys, why don't you say hi to our audience and why don't you introduce what you guys do? Michael: Oh, Hey everybody. Michael here. You know, we focus mainly on multitenant, mid-rise office buildings or industrial buildings or industrial parks. Anything between three to 25 mil is our typical range that we work on. Cody: And I'm Cody Payne and I work with Michael and that pretty much sums it up pretty well. We sell investment office and industrial buildings in Dallas Fort Worth. James: Got it, got it. So you guys are brokers, right? Do you own any of these as well? Cody: Yeah, actually we do, we actually just did a syndication not long ago where we pulled together a few investors and bought a portfolio of five office buildings down the mid-cities. And we've even done some development also. James: Got it. So office and industrial; nobody has talked about this asset class in the show. So I want to go really deep into how people make money out of this asset class because I'm a multifamily guy. I'm so used to multifamily and a lot of people knows multifamily very well. It's like seems to be like the only asset class out there. Right? But I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who's killing it in industrial and office. Right? So, I want to go deep into, you know, how an active investor would look at these two asset classes and you guys absolutely will be you know, giving a lot of value in this discussion. So let's start with industrial. Can we define what is an industrial asset class and how does it look like when I drive by, how can I say this is industrial and is there any different types of industrial that I need to be aware of when I drive by and when I'm going to look at something? Cody: Yeah, absolutely. So industrial is going to be, you know, your big box, tall, concrete warehouses that you'll see as you're driving along the freeway or in some other parts. These things can range anywhere from tenants utilizing just a couple thousand square feet up to a large shipping receiving warehouse that you'll see, that can be half a million-million square feet. A lot of things that I think a lot of people are familiar with is, seeing those tall, 24 36 foot tall concrete structures where a lot of 18 wheelers are backed up to that are loading, unloading, cross-docking and things of that nature. That's what your typical image of a warehouse industrial is. And a lot of people look for that and that's one of the key asset classes that a lot of investors are looking for right now. James: Well, so you said a lot of investors, I mean, it's a very relative term, right? And I'm not sure you guys know how much people invest in multifamily. So is that same equal in people investing in industrial and office or is it like coming from your knowledge in a multifamily is like crazily too many people and industrial is like a niche [03:26unclear] ? Cody: So the office and industrial it is a little more niche. I wouldn't say there's as many buyers for it as there is for multifamily. I mean, you, obviously there's a lot more multi-families than there are mid-rise office buildings, especially out here in Dallas, Fort Worth and even in Texas as a whole. But it's very niche specific. And so, that's why a lot of times you'll see a multifamily guy refer out if someone's looking at buying an office building or even vice versa. Because we won't sell a multifamily complex just because we're not as aware of it but the buyer pool is still very good. We get a lot of multifamily people, especially over the past three, four or five years, that have really started to hone in on the office industrial market as compared to my 10 years prior to that. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah. Even in my book, I mentioned that, you know, all these asset classes, they are somebody who's really good at these asset classes. And a lot of passive investors just look to, you know, seek to this kind of operators who are really good at industrial office or multifamily. There are people who specialize in this and they're really, really good at it so they have to seek for that operators. So that's good to know. It's very niche market. So, coming back to industrial, how do I identify a sub-market...how do I find an industrial, which is a really good, in terms of location, how do I say if I look at this building, I can say that this building is in a really good industrial location. How do I say that? What are the factors I need to look at? Michael: You know, one of the main ones nowadays is access. A lot of the logistics chains, they kind of make sure they can get the 18 wheelers in there, parked. That's why a lot of the users that are looking out that way, they're always making sure that they're centralized too. So like, let's say the great Southwest district here just South of DFW Airport; that's one of the biggest industrial hubs over here, you can get to almost any part of the metroplex within 20 to 30 minutes max. And then you'll have Alliance, which is in North Fortworth. I think that's a sleeper town that a lot of people overlook here but they're just building more and more bigger boxes up there. And it's due to 35 West Highway that goes all the way down to Austin, even down where you guys are at. So that's become another major hub press as well. And FedEx, Amazon they're all up that way. And you've got little pockets up in Plano as well which is probably about 30 minutes from the airport and they've got some major like Toyota is looking to move up that way. And they've got everybody else just following them over here. James: So do you look at, like for example, in multifamily, we look at household demographic, we look at median household income and income growth, job growth and all that. But it looks like industrial is different, I guess. Like you have to look at how convenient it is for the 18 wheelers to meet and compare and also seems to be some kind of adjacency with the certain key distributors like Amazon or Toyota. So is that key factors, I presume? Cody: Yeah, absolutely. And actually, we've got a map behind us.  James: So those who are on YouTube, you can definitely see the map. Cody: Yeah. James: To really, you know, talk numbers in terms of what? Cody: Just as the Dallas Fortworth airport right here. And this is the great South West district that Michael was talking about. This is where you'll have a lot of warehousing and a lot of it up North as well. Amazon's got a large center as well. So you've kind of have the same thing, which is growing a lot out here where Hillwood has their Alliance airport. And then the same thing back over here where Dallas load field is, there's a lot of warehouses over there and there's a lot off limits. So you know, a lot of these guys where we see a lot of tenant velocity and things of that nature are going to be closest to the airports because that [07:49unclear]  Fortworth because here and going to Fortworth and go to Dallas and go South and go North and they can receive from one of the largest airports in the world right here. James: Got it. So it's basically access to the airport and access to the highway and how can we get to go to other big cities, I guess, right? Fortworth, Austin. Cody: And they don't necessarily need highway visibility cause that's your most expensive parcel of land, but they need good access to it. And so having that nearby that airport, they've got access to I-20, I-30, 183, 360, and so that's a really good hub. And that's why that district is such a large district and continues to expand. James: Is there like a park, like an industrial park where the city or the government is allocated or is it like, is there random everywhere? Cody: They're more spread out. James: So there is no like tax incentive offered by any government or any cities, I guess. Cody: Well, yeah, certain cities will offer certain tax incentives. I know Dallas offers quite a few in certain areas and even if you start getting into like the opportunities zone areas and things of that nature. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. So, you talk in terms of industrial, in terms of square footage, right? That's what you said, or square footage and access, access is also an amenity. But I presume, what is the average price per square feet in terms of industrial buildings? Michael: So that is a very good question cause those can actually range anywhere between 50 a foot all the way up to, you know, building new. It also depends on the age of the building, ceiling height, [09:39unclear] in the building. So there's a lot of factors in industrial that you have to account for. How many docks as well. Dock high, grade level doors or are you familiar with any of these terms? James: No, no. This is all completely new. But it's important. I want you guys to share that level of detail because I want people to really learn how do you, cause I'm going to go to their underwriting later on. So that's going to features of the industrial, is that like a class A, class B, class C industrial buildings? Cody: Absolutely. Go over some of the rates that you see on some... James: Yeah. What are the class As? Cody: Are you asking for rental rates? James:  Rental rates and also buildings, right. I presume that's all correlated? Michael: Yeah. So rental rates, you'll see anything, depending, like I said, very niche-specific stuff. So like you'll see anything from $4 a foot all the way up to 10 and sometimes even higher and triple net or some of the newer industrial products coming out. And then you have if it's, you know, if it's in the less desirable area, they'll Teeter with the four to seven modified gross or industrial gross as you'll hear. And those usually have some expenses in there that are charged back to the tenant. As for space, if the space is less desirable, you're going to see more of that industrial gross number anywhere between, you know, five to seven. Newer stuff, like I said, $10, sometimes triple net, just depending on area and access. Cody: And a lot of times is that building size gets larger, that rental rate, well a lot of times go down. James: Okay. Okay. So before we probably go further, can you define triple-net because a lot of people in the residential stage, they are not used to this triple net. Can you define triple net, what does it mean? Michael: Yeah. So if you can ever in residential, try to charge them triple net. But when I was saying it's a triple net, basically it's taxes, insurance, and common area maintenance is charged back to your [11:46unclear]  Sometimes you can get an absolute triple-net deal and that's where the tenant also care of the roof and structure. It's not as common in industrial unless it's a single-tenant deal, but most of the time you're going to see this regular triple nets. James: Okay. Right. Interesting. Because we don't have that in multifamily. That'd be awesome. So triple net also means that if the property taxes go up, the landlord doesn't get any impact. We still get the rents that we supposed to get, I guess. Michael: That's correct. And sometimes, you know, your tenant, if they're a little more savvy they'll have like a protection on no higher increase in five to 10% on their common area maintenance or taxes. So let's say like your lawn guy wants to charge you way more, that'll force you to just find a new one at a more reasonable price. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. So what is the landlord responsible for then? Michael: Roof and parking lot. Structuring the building if it's triple net. Yeah. James: So does the landlord still get the tax benefits of owning the real estate? I'm presume so, right? Because you own the building, you own the roof and you own the real estate, I guess, right? Cody: Yes. So, well it depends on the tax benefits that they're getting, but if it's, you know, ownership of the real estate tax benefits, yes. Now if it's business-related or some of that nature, that's for them, obviously. James: Correct. Correct, correct. And I think the depreciation schedule for industrial and an office, I just want to cover that, is 39 and a half. Is that right if I'm not mistaken. Cody: I believe you're correct. James:  I think in residential it's 27.5 and all of the asset classes like 39 or 39.5, I can't remember. But that's a good distinction within triple net and the normal deals that we buy in multifamily. So, coming back to my question, I know we talked about different rental rates, but are there any classes that you guys have categorized in terms of industrial buildings? So it's just based on how old they are and there's no real definition... Cody: Yeah. So they do have classes, you've got B, you've got C, you've got A class and a lot of times that is determined by age and location and building quality and things of that nature. James: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it, got it. But definitely have to be in some way accessible near to their distribution part I would say, or distribution hub. I guess Cody: That's when a lot of them like it, they are very keen on location. But like I said, I didn't have to have highway frontage. In that access is very key. James: Okay. What about the, who buys the industrial? I want to interview a buyer of industrial parks and industrial buildings and I can never find, but you guys know all these guys, but who buys...what are the typical buyer characteristics or where does it come from? What does he look for? What is his appetite in terms of investment whenever they buy these industrial buildings? Cody: Absolutely. So there's a lot of buyers for industrial and they increase every day. And you know, even for the small Bay warehouses, you know, we have so many of those people that keep pouring into the marketplace and not just Texas, but in the US as a whole. But yeah, I mean industrial probably gets some of the most cross product or cross asset buyers that we've got. You know, people from self-storage buy these, people retail, past experience, they buy these. We even have apartment owners and operators buy these. But you know, there's a lot of REITs and institutions and things of that nature that are big in it. But no, a lot of, I would say the past 10 industrial buildings that we sold, probably I think, I want to say seven of those were an out of state owners. James: Got it. Are they from coastal city? Like New York and California? Are they local? Cody: Yeah. Canada, Florida, Chicago, absolutely. James: And do you see that this one guy buying across the nation or it's still very localized? Cody: No, a lot of these people will buy across the nation, but this is a market that a lot of these people will look into.  James: Texas, they like a lot of Texas? Cody:  Oh absolutely. Yeah. And like Michael was saying, you know, because of the Dallas Fortworth economy and things of that nature, it gets a lot of eyes. James: Got it. Very interesting. So, let's go back to underwriting and industrial building. So I presume that's a rental of the building where the tenants...is it like usually one tenant or is it like multiple tenants or how does that or is it all the 17-wheelers parking need to pay rent?  Cody: Yeah, it can be one tenant. We just sold a very large complex off of 360 and about 80 tenants in it. So, it can be very, very intense with a lot of tenants. And I think the group that bought that had a lot of multifamily experience as well. James: So 80 tenants in one building. I mean, do they have like counters in it or do they have docks? Cody: Yeah, so it was a bunch of buildings in a business park and so it was about 22 of them. And so it was just park. James: So it's like an industrial park where everybody had buildings and they ran the... Cody: Yeah, they had their own suites and things of that nature. James: Okay. So if it's triple net then probably there's nothing to do with expense ratio for a landlord. Right, because you get [17:30 crosstalk] Cody: One of those, I believe, were on gross leases still, but with industrial, a lot of people that aren't on triple net are going that way. James: Okay. Explain what's the difference between gross lease and triple net? Cody: So a gross lease, you'll find a lot more in office, in general office. You will absolutely find it in an industrial and gross lease is going to be where the landlord's taking on commonary maintenance, landscaping, repairs and maintenance, you know, HVAC, things of that nature. And so it's more management intensive. Your expenses on the landlord are going to be higher and that's a gross lease. But then you start getting into other types of leases. You know, you've got full service, you got gross, you've got modified gross and you get into like net, double net, triple net. James: Oh, okay. And what about full service? As you mentioned, because I've seen Cody: So full service, you're really only going to see that in office. And what I mean by that is landlord pays everything. They pay the utilities, they pay the janitorial, they pay the common area maintenance, they pay taxes, insurance, they cover everything. A tenant goes in as you know, a price per square foot and that's all they pay. James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So let's go to office. I mean in general, people are worried about office. Because you know, people say the trend is working from home. So is that still true?  Cody: Not here. James: Not probably in Dallas, I guess. Cody: No. I think office is actually trending a lot more towards coworking and things of that nature. And that's a model that has just expanded and blown up like crazy, especially out here in Dallas, Fortworth. James: So what is a typical investor who's looking to buy office space, office buildings? Where do they come from, what do they look for in an office? What kind of hold time do they have usually? Michael: Yeah. So their hold time can range anywhere between five and seven years. But you know, we just did a major value-add project in Plano where Toyota's headquarters is. State Farm had moved out and it was probably 20% occupied. That buyer actually, you know, did a bridge loan and he's going to go ahead and get that filled up very quickly, just cause the area's occupancy is not any lower than 80, 85%. But where these buyers come from, same thing as the industrial guys, cause a lot of industrial buyers also look at office and office guys look at industrial as well. But like I was telling you the other day on the phone, we've noticed a huge influx of multifamily buyers moving into office just because the returns are a little higher. And so, we had like that last guy, California we've got one in Chicago looking at one of our deals right now. We've got a couple of local groups out here that know these office buildings really well too and they know the trends of the area and how the occupancy is. So one specifically we're working on right near White Rock Lake in Dallas. That one's at 92, 93%, and that one's always been full ever since anybody can remember. So that's where these buyers come from. Any other questions? James: Yeah. How do you decide this office space is in a good location? Other than knowing, I know Plano is hard and I know free score is hard, but how, what are the parameters you look for in terms of like like you know, jobs growth in that particular submarket? Michael:  So, yeah, so you look for competition within the area for that office building, comparables in that market to the building because if you know the market really well and you know every building, you'll see that some gives you like a better bang for your buck. You know, some will have a lot of amenities that they're starting to offer. [21:48unclear]  groups are starting to do incubator spaces where they have a smaller coworking model and then their tenants will grow into spaces that are available in their building that they have rooms. And so they'll convert, you know, a small executive office and they can charge anywhere, you know, 35 to $45 per square foot just for a room. And as that tenant grows, they can grow within the building. But if you want to look at like specific markets like Las Colinas Irving area, are you familiar with that area? James: Yeah. Michael: Yeah. So you know that area has a lot of office and that's one thing you need to make sure of when you're looking at a deal. How many other class B or class A properties can your tenants look at before they commit to a space? But if you're looking over in Dallas, like where White Rock is, our building is the only building for the next two or three miles before you hit a highway, either going towards 75 or going North towards 635. And so that's why this building has been able to capture a lot of the people who don't want to drive all the way to 75 and fight that traffic every day or drive North on  635 and fight with that traffic as well. James: So you probably look at a cost, what the VPD, vehicle per day drive on that nearby highway, I guess. And I think you probably...I mean, as you mentioned, you look at other office supply in that area and I'm presuming you look at vacancy rate as well, on nearby office. And what tool do you use? Is it CoStar that you guys is primary for this industrial and office? Cody: Yeah. So there's a lot of tools you can use CoStar and Craxi and things of that nature. There's a lot of, you know, real capital analytics as well. They track a lot of good stuff. What I would also say on the office side is it's probably one of the product types. It's a little closer to multifamily as far as kind of a how to make them successful and things of that nature. Because, you know, when people go look at a multifamily complex, they usually have a couple options. And so a lot of times what they'll look at is amenities, access, recent renovations, things of that nature. What can they do for me on a new move in? And so office is very much a model that is driven just like multifamily. And so, keeping up with the times, making sure the renovations are good, making sure the building offers things like the deli or wifi and stuff of that nature or coworking style environment. Those things all help office buildings succeed. James: Got it. And what about this vacancy rate? Cause sometimes they're not...I mean multi-families and people that need a place to leave and vacancies are pretty low I guess comparatively to office, I mean different tenant profile. Right. So what is the average vacancy rate? I mean, how do I know like this area, this is the vacancy rate because somebody can be like six months, one year or somebody can be a few months, right? Depends on the area, I guess. How do you determine what is the vacancy rate for office and what are the lease terms in office? Cody: Absolutely. So the vacancy rate is going to be area driven. And so, you'll have certain areas like downtown Fortworth, which will have a certain vacancy rate and then that is going to be very much different than Las Colinas, downtown Dallas, Plano Allen, McKinney, Frisco. We pulled something earlier today working on a few things out in the Allen and McKinney area up there by Frisco and you know, they're class B office spaces around 5% on the vacancy side, which is very good for office, especially with more and more supply continuing to come up out there. In Los Colinas, it's gonna move a little bit more. And so, in my career, I've seen Los Colinas go down to almost 30%, and come up to somewhere around 10. But there's a lot of supply out there and there's always things shifting. Fortworth, I believe their occupancy is higher than what's being shown, but that's because XTO owned a bunch of the office product out there at one time and they recently sold a lot of that off. So some of that's being converted to hotels and things of that nature. But what you want to look at when you're buying an office building is yes, the area of vacancy, the area rental rates, but also the velocity of tenants, how many tenants are moving in that area. And then you also want to look at what are the size of tenants, the square footage sizes that we have and what is really the area tenant size. And so, some people will buy a building and they'll have 10,000, 15,000 square foot units, when the area is really commanding three to 5,000 square foot tenants. And so they'll see a lot longer on market time. And so what they need to do is chop those spaces down. James: And do people who buy, you know, I just want to add industrial. So industrial office, are they people who syndicate deals, like what a lot of multifamily people do? Or is it REITs or is it some institutional or some rich guy from the coastal areas? Cody: It can be a rich guy like yourself or it could [27:23crosstalk] James: I'm in Austin, Texas.  Cody: It varies. When you start dealing under $5 million, a lot of that's going to be private. James: But is it a lot of syndication happening? Cody: Oh yeah. James: Oh really? Okay. So, syndication is not a multifamily game only is also in the office and industrial. Okay. That's really good to know because I didn't know that. Michael: Yeah. And to go back on your question, you're asking about these terms. So you want to make sure that, area driven but you also want to make sure that your TIs are not going to eat you alive. James: Yeah. So TI is tenant improvements; just for our audience, for them to know. Michael: Yes. So and you'll see a lot of these guys in office that are moving. Sometimes they really want like a gold plated wall finish out and you just can't do that for them. You need to make sure you get that lease term where it can get your TIs not in the red for the first year. I even try to keep that around like $10 or so per square foot. But you'll see those terms go just depending on what they need done to the space, how many offices they need built out. You'll see that range anywhere between three years, five years, seven or 10, sometimes 15. That's really big one that's usually the range you'll see on a lease term. James: Got it. So I think it's all up to negotiation and how much the landlord is going to pay and how strong is the lease terms and all that. How do you qualify your tenants? I mean, let's say I'm a buyer, I'm buying an office space with 10 different tenants in it, how do I say this is a class A tenant, this is a class B tenant and this is a class C tenant. And how do I say that? Michael: So when we underwrite a lot of these deals, we're looking at the tenants, how long they've been there. We can also reach out to the seller or ourselves if we know the tenant what their credit rating is. And you can give a write upon them. Like we were selling a three tenant deal out in Las Colinas and some of the tenants themselves put in their own money. They put in 500,000 in improvements to the space work for them. So that was one of the things that we made sure that we had in our OM when we were underwriting that deal and how much time they had left. Cause when you're looking at these, you're like, Oh man, this guy, he's only got a year or two left. But you know, a year or two ago they put $500,000 into this space. So sometimes it was a really big key factors, explaining these commitment levels of the tenant. James: So you said credit rating. Is there data that you pull out from them or you just look at history and how they [30:18unclear] Michael: Yeah, all those things combined. James: But is that something that way you can pull from the credit rating of the tenants? Is that a system or you just have to look [30:30unclear] Michael:  Yeah, not always, but you know, when you're working a lease deal when I used to lease back from the day, we would get tenant financials from them, sometimes, yeah. James: So based on their financials and what's their commitment to the space that's where you establish their credit rating, I guess? Michael: Yes. And comfort level and then like, Oh, okay. I feel like their financials are good enough for me to say. James: So it's very subjective then because I mean, somebody who want to sell the deal, he may say to all my tenants are A-plus credit rating, I guess. So, I'm just trying to quantify that a bit more, but I think it looks like there's no real... Cody: Sometimes you would have like an A-plus credit rating or something of that nature is when you've got like a DaVita or something of that nature in the building or a FedEx or something like that. But a lot of times, office buildings will have, you know, a little bit more generic companies, local regional firms. And so that's why Michael said if they're going to spend a lot of money on the finish out, they'll say, Hey, we'd like to see your business financials just so we can make sure that the money we're spending that you look like someone's going to be in business for the term. And you know, they're pretty much used to that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's say a building is being sold right now and some of the residents have like one or two years left in their lease. If they get to know that somebody's going to buy this building, will they start negotiating with the new buyer or the new buyer have an option to know whether they're going to be renewing? How does that work? Cause you know, that basically increases your risk. Michael: Yeah. So typically they do not know until you're pretty far along in the process. So they'll usually get attendant estoppel, which will signal to them that, Hey the building may change hands to a new owner. But although they're getting that, it's mainly just a lease verification to make sure also their security deposit is transferred over as well. And you know, you don't want to alert the tenants, but you also want to make sure that when you're working on these, they're paying what they're saying on the OM and it's matching what it has on the estoppel as well. James: Got it. Got it, got it. Well, Michael and Cody, thanks for coming. I mean, can you tell our audience and listeners how to get hold of you? You guys are doing really big deals in the DFW area. I'm not sure, are you guys covering any of the areas other than DFW? Cody: I'd say 95% of the business that we've got is in DFW now. We will branch out and sell a couple of things here and there. We're actually about to bring out a 20 story office tower out in Corpus Christi. That's a relationship that we have. James: Let me know if some of the towers in Austin is coming for Salem. Probably I can even buy one. Cody: Absolutely. James: I just heard there are 37 new towers coming in Austin. Cody: Well, there's a lot of people that are looking out there, I can tell you that. James: Yeah. So why not you guys tell our audience how to get hold of you guys. Cody: I'll do it. So yeah, Cody Payne, Michael Tran. Our number is (817) 840-0055, we're with Colliers International, we're office and industrial specialists and we've got some really good self-storage and retail guys here as well. James: Good, good. Guys, look for a specialist because all this asset class, there's a lot of nuances to it as so much of details. Not everybody can do this. And you know, these guys are some of the best in the industry. Thanks for coming on Cody: See you.

Why are words so important? Join Pastor Erica Giesow as she helps us understand the power of the tounge in Week 3 of The Book Of James.

James: Hey audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieved Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing podcast. And today we are doing a slightly different format. We are doing a podcast plus a webinar and I have Dr. Glennn Mueller here. So Dr. Glennn is someone I have been following for many, many years looking at his real estate market cycle studies and he's a professor at University of Denver. He has been doing this almost 36 years, if I'm not mistaken, has gone through many, many different market cycle. And, Dr. Glennn, why not tell our audience what I didn't cover in terms of introducing yourself. Glenn: Sure. So I've actually been in the real estate field for the past 45 years. Started out as a loan analyst at United bank of Denver and by chance got put into the real estate group after a couple of years, realized that real estate people made a lot of money, went out and started my own construction and development companies and built custom homes for about seven years and then decided that I wanted to have a change and a different lifestyle. So I went back to school, got my PhD in real estate and started teaching at the University of Denver. I hired away by a big institutional investor, Prudential real estate investors and then onto a Jones Lang LaSalle. And then started working on the security side with Wreaths Real Estate Investment Trusts at Lake Mason. I ran the research group there and then one of my client's black Creek group invited me to come and head up research for them. And I've been with them now for the past 15 years and at the same time teaching as a full professor at the University of Denver. So I guess I'm a typical real estate type A personality running two jobs at the same time. But a lot of my research is focused on real estate market cycles, which is what we're going to talk about today. James: Yes, yes, correct. And real estate is very interesting because sometimes it's very hard for us to make it into a very analytical format. And when I look at your charts and the work that you do, you have really break it down to science. I mean, of course, definitely there's art in real estate but there's a lot of science to it as well. And it comes from years and years of research, like what you have done. And that's very important for people like us who are basically active investors who are buying deals day in, day out and going to different market cycles and it's also more important for people who have never gone to a full market cycle. Like, even for me, I've not gone through a down cycle yet and there are tons and tons of people who have not gone to a down cycle, so we always wonder how this different cycle is impacted by different property types. What do you call us, like industrial, self-storage, apartments, office and retail and few other things. So this presentation that you're going to be doing on the webinar and throughout the podcast, we're going to try to clarify some of the slides that's going to be covered here so that the people who are listening to the podcast is going to be able to follow too as well. And this going to be difficult [03:26unclear] Glenn: So do you want to... James: Go ahead doctor? Glenn: So if you'd like, if you want, I've got my slides ready to go. We could probably go to that. I can start in. James: Let's start, I mean I'm going to name this podcast, A State of the Union of Commercial Real Estate Property [03:46unclear] so let's go through it. Glenn: Throw the word cycles in there someplace because I do real estate cycles. So let me actually bring that to full screen size to make it easier to see. Is that clear for you?   James: Yes that's awesome.   Glenn: Okay, great. So basically I believe that real estate is a delayed mirror of the economy as the economy goes, so goes real estate when the economy is doing well, real estate does well. When the economy turns down, real estate lags by about a year and about a year after the economy starts to turn down, real estate will turn down. You can see that here in this first chart and on the demand side of real estate, there are three key things we look at. The first one is population growth. The US population is growing at nine tenths of 1%. We are 330 million people. So we're actually growing by 3 million people every year in this country; and let's put that into simple real estate terms. That means that we need to build one city, complete city the size of Denver, Colorado, which will actually hit 3 million people this year, to give them a place to eat, sleep, shop, work, play, pray, store things, et cetera.   So here you can see GDP growth, the great recession in oh nine and the beginning of 2010 with negative GDP growth. And then it has rebounded and it's been running at this nice average of right around, just a little over 2%. And the forecast is that that looks like it continues forward with a little bit of a dip here in in late 2020. But to be honest, economists are always wrong. Their numbers never perfectly accurate and there's a fairly high probability that doesn't happen. The reason for that dip is actually the employment growth below, which again, you can see the negative number back in 2009. It starts to recover and go positive in 2010 and has been running about 2%. And then you see the forecast for a slight decline back to down to close to zero in 2021. That's actually a mathematical calculation of the number of baby boomers like me getting to retirement age of 65 versus the number of millennials who are just coming out of school.   The only thing and one of the reasons I believe that that number is wrong is that most baby boomers like me, we enjoy what we do and we're not necessarily retiring or if we do within six months to a year, we're out with another job. It may be a totally different kind of job. I love up here in the mountains of Colorado and a lot of my friends that retired are working as ski school instructors or driving a shuttle bus or my wife is a host and tour guide, Arapaho area ski area. So those people are still working. So that decline in employment growth sort of forecasted decline in GDP growth, my guess is that doesn't happen. And a lot of economists now are saying maybe we're in the lower for longer term. As you probably all know. We just hit 10 years of economic expansion. So we're in the longest economic expansion in modern history and a lot of economists do say, well, it can't go past that, but I don't believe that because right now the country in the world that's had the longest economic expansion is Australia and they're in their 28th year of expansion with no recessions. So I believe that the way that we're set up with this more moderate growth is something that is potentially sustainable as we go along. James: So let me recap that because that's very important point because that's a lot of notion out there that we are too long in expansion cycle, we must come to an end, it's cyclic but what you're saying is the way the employment growth and the way that GDP growth has become moderate right now for the pass many how many years we have, and that's a good thing. So what you're saying is with that moderate growth, we might be able to go longer on expansion cycle. Is that right? Glenn: Right. We're at the beginning of the longest ever. James: Correct. So when you talk about Australia, I mean, I know it's one of the longest expansion cycle and things are getting very expensive there, but is that the same case in Australia? Were they like moderate growth for very long time and that's how they're able to sustain it? Glenn: Yes. James: Okay. Got it. Got it. And what's driving the 0.9% population growth, where is the growth coming from? Glenn: That is new births over deaths plus legal immigration.   James: Okay.   Glenn: And so we're actually growing at a higher rate than that from illegal immigration as well. But there are more people; we're at a very low unemployment rate at this point in time. So anybody that wants a job, basically you can get a job and that's a good thing.   James: Okay. I'm going to ask about inflation and you are showing the chart on inflation, okay let's go to inflation.   Glenn: So on the flip side of the coin is as we look at, and this talk that we're talking about, by the way, we're talking about income producing real estate, not homes, not home ownership. So we're focusing on the income producing side of this as we go along. So the two things that we look at, so we've got good demand as we put up new properties for people to us. On the cost side inflation is running at again about 2% and has been since the great recession when it was actually negative and that is expected to continue. And then we look at interest rates and of course we are at, actually, I'm going to jump ahead here to a different graph, I think. No, I'll wait on that because it's too far ahead.   We're at a very low interest rate. As a matter of fact, the lowest interest rates in 60 years. And then in income producing real estate, commercial real estate you can't go out and get a 30 year mortgage on an office building. The longest you're going to see is 10 years. And so we look at 10 year treasuries, US treasuries as our benchmark. And here you can see that 10 year treasuries and these graphs are actually wrong, they forecast going up to 4%, 10 year treasuries are running a little under 2%. So if you're going to go out and get a commercial loan, you might get in a 10 year treasuries plus a 2% premium. So that would be a, today, 10 year treasuries are running right about one seven, one eight. So you would be getting a 3.8% 10 year loan on your property, which is a very low interest rate. Hence good return to equity on investment after the loan amount.   James: So the chart that you showed is basically a forecast but we are running much lower than the forecast I guess?   Glenn: Yes. Yup. We are.   James: And who came up with the forecast?   Glenn: Every economists forecast what is going to happen. The forecast that we look at many times are the congressional budget office. So that's cbo.gov, if you want to go get their stuff; they do 10 year forecasts on GDP growth, limit growth, interest rates, all kinds of different things. So that's a very good place and it's free to go look at what's happening. And just underneath that they've got a lot of different things. Just click on the economy one and all that information will come up.   James: And why do you think the economists are wrong? Why were they forecasting at 4% [11:41unclear] 1.7?   Glenn: It's a statistical method called reversion to the mean. Interest rates over 60 years have averaged close to 6%. So now that it's low, it has to go back up.   James: Got it, got it.   Glenn: And every single year they did forecasting within two years, 4% and every year for the last 10 years they've been wrong. James: Last 10 years they've been wrong. Is there a chance for them to be continuously being wrong? Glenn: Again there's an old saying for kindness, forecast often. James: Well, the reason I ask is because every year people are forecasting the interest rates are going up or coming down when everybody's wrong all the time.   Glenn: Yes.   James: And it's very important for interested for investors like us, like where we are predictive because we do exit cap rate and we have buying deals, hoping on the cash flow, but also this market appreciation would be a bonus for us, so that's why I asked.   Glenn: So let's actually go right to talk about real estate and my market cycle analysis. So I believe there's really two cycles in real estate. The first one is the physical cycle, which is demand and supply for real estate. So people renting and space available for rent and that drives the occupancy rate which is just the inverse of vacancy. I like using occupancies and you'll see why here and occupancy drives rent growth. So if my occupancies are up, which means there's more demand, I can raise my rents. If we're in a recession and occupancies go down, people aren't renting. Landlords are going to drop their rents. And if I add occupancy and rent together, so if I get an increase in occupancy, in other words, I rent more space and I get an increase in rent, those two together will tell me how much income I'm going to get off my property. That's the physical cycle.   The financial cycle talks about the price of real estate and we're going to do that second and we're going to do it separately. So here's my market cycle analysis and you see that I've got four quadrants, just like the account, just like an economic cycle or recovery and expansion. I have a supply and a recession phase. There are 16 points on the cycle because historically real estate cycles have lasted 16 years and so at the bottom we've got obviously declining vacancy on the way up and increasing vacancy on the way down. We don't build much there in the recovery phase. We build a lot in both the expansion and the hyper supply phase. And then we don't start anything but we complete buildings that have been started in the recession phase. So actually we'll go to this slide. So the study that I've done and published that I get quoted on all the time is the fact that if you know where you are in the cycle, you'll know what kind of rent growth you might expect. So you can see here at the bottom, I don't know if my arrow is showing up here or not, but at the bottom of the cycle points one and two, you've got negative rent growth, so landlords are dropping their rent. So if it was $10 a square foot last year and it's going down 3%, 3% of $10 is 30 cents or it's going to go down to $9.70 a square foot to rent. As we start to come up through the cycle and occupancies increase you can see rent growing and at positions six, at the long-term average there, 0.6 is on the long-term average dotted line; you can see that rent growth was 4% and during this historic cycle time, inflation was running 4% then. So when you get to long-term average, you get basically the rate of inflation.   Then in the green shaded area here, which is the expansion phase, you can see rents really rising quickly to a peak and a high of 12.5% in position 10. Then when we hit the peak of the cycle, which is the highest level of occupancy after that, rent still grows positively, but it starts to decelerate or slow down, back to around inflation at 0.14 and then low and negative again at the bottom. And then one of the things to notice here is that 0.8 on the cycle is green and because that is the cost feasible rent level. By that I mean that if it costs $400 a square foot to build a new office building here in Denver and investors are looking for a 10% rate of return on that $400 investment, 10% of 400 is $40 a square foot. So rents in the market have to hit 40 before we can cost justify building the new building. Makes sense?   James: Got it. Makes sense. Makes sense.   Glenn: Okay. So every quarter I look at the major property types, look at that demand and supply, look at the occupancy levels and as you can see today five major property types office downtown or suburban office is at 0.6, downtown offices at 0.8, retail, which will surprise everybody at 0.9, industrial at 0.10 and retail industrial warehouse up at peak occupancy rates. And the only property type that's over the top into hyper supply is apartment. An apartment is there not because of a decline in demand, we've got all these millennials coming out of school and so every year demand is going up for apartments, but we're just overbuilding it a little bit. So for my company and for other investors, what I do is I analyse the 54 largest cities in the United States and where they are in their cycle. And as you can see here they're kind of spread up because demand and supply is very local in nature. Notice what's happening in New York office, which is driven by the financial sector and the stock market is going to be different from what's happening in Boston or Chicago or in New York or any other city. So you can look at the companies that are there, the industry that's driving the growth and what you see here is national average at 0.8. But some markets moving up the cycle and some markets over the top. And I'll give a quick example here. We've got two markets that are in the hyper supply phase, Austin and Houston, both in Texas   James: [18:19unclear]   Glenn: The Austin market is driven by technology companies. A lot of tech companies like being there because they can hire young people that want to live in Austin, It's a cool city. Actually [18:31unclear]   James: I'm in Austin. It is very cool to live here.   Glenn: And so, what's happening there is since that's been going on for a few years, the developers are putting up just a little bit more space than you need. So the occupancy rate is starting to come down just a little bit because there's too much space there. So that's a situation of too much supply. Houston is exactly the opposite. It's a place of declining demand because the oil industry is driving Houston and with low gas prices, the amount of exploration and other things going on has dropped off and they've laid people off. So that's a position of declining demand. So since you're in Austin, let's watch Austin as we look at this. So that's where office is, here's where industrial is. So warehouse space, again, Austin is just one point over the top. A lot of markets are at their peak, demand for an industrial warehouse space has been very strong because of Amazon and people buying things online.   So we've got a huge demand growth on the industrial side and there are some cities again where it's easy to build. So we're overbuilding just a little bit. Now we look at the apartment market and Austin is at the top at the peak point at 11 because you aren't putting up apartments fast enough for all these millennials moving in. But you look at, there's a lot of other markets where they are putting up a little bit too much space. In other words, we're oversupplying almost half the market. So the national average is just a little over the top. Every time I talk to developers I'd say if you just back off on building apartments by about 10% of what's being built, you'll come right back into balance and be back at peak equilibrium point 11. When we look at retail, you can see that the majority of the cities are at peak and Austin is there as well. This is the one surprising thing because everybody hears about retailers going out of business and we’ll talk about that a little bit more in just a second. And then finally hotels here you can see that hotels, the majority are in the expansion phase with some over the top. And again, Austin, you're oversupplying by just a little bit. So what I want to do now is jump to and looks at the historic cycles. As you said, you haven't been through a full cycle yet. Well here we're going to go back to 1982 and that's a point in time at which I was building. And you can see that occupancies in office were very high. They came down and bottomed out in the early 1990's with a small recession and we'd actually over oversupplied a lot. They peaked in 2000 with the technology boom, they bottomed in 2002 and three, with the technology bubble bursting; came up to a lower peak in 2006 and seven as the economy was doing well, bottomed out in the great recession in 2010. And today has come back and are reaching a kind of a lower level equilibrium occupancy level than we've seen in previous times. But it looks like it's going to last for at least another two or three years. So the other line that you see here is the rent growth line. And you can see that those two are very highly correlated. As a matter of fact, they're correlated by almost 80%. So if occupancies are going up, rents are going up, if occupancies are going to go down, rents are going to go down. Pretty simple and straightforward to look at. So let's look at my forecast and here's the forecast and it looks very much like the monitor. And you can see that markets are again, majority in the expansion place. Austin, as you can see there is in the hyper supply phase at position 13. And again, that's because I'm forecasting that you've got a lot of new properties coming online, so your occupancy levels are actually going to fall a little bit in the coming year. If we look at industrial, you see basically the exact same cycle of occupancies and rent growth and we've got this really nice equilibrium that happened back in the mid-nineties and another one that's happening today. Rent growth has been really high in industrial because of the, I call it the Amazon effect up at 7% more than double the rate of inflation and we expect that to kind of work its way back down over the next few years back to kind of a more normal by 2017 we expect to see kind of inflation type things there.   So again, half the markets at peak or equilibrium, the other half building just a little bit too much, but that's the way it is and Austin, again, just one point over the top. Oh, one other thing is you notice I've got some numbers after each city and those numbers tell you if the city is moved from the previous quarter, for instance below Austin there you've got Cincinnati at a plus one. So Cincinnati was at peak number 11, and its occupancy occupancies dropped enough for me to move it forward to position 12. So it's rent growth is going to be decent James: And the bolded city are the biggest cities? Glenn: Right. Okay. Yeah. So the bolded cities make up, one of the things I found was there are big concentrations. So in each of the different property types there is anywhere between 11 and 14 cities that make up 50% of all the square footage in all 54 of these markets. So what city is bolded may not be the same in each case. So like Riverside is here in the industrial, but it's not in any of the others. Las Vegas will be in hotels, but it's not a big city for office or any of the other property types. When we look at apartments, you can see that we actually hit a peak in occupancy back in where am I?   James: 2019.   Glenn: Yeah. We had a peak back in 2014. It looks like we had another peak here in 2019, but because of the overbuild; we slowed things down a little bit. But going forward, we just have a lot of it in the pipeline and so we're going to overbuild it looks like for next three or four years and hence rent growth, which was as high as 5% back in 2015 has dropped off. And in 2019, I think it's going to run about two and a half percent. James: But looking at that chart, you're predicting 2019 after 2019, rent growth is going to slow down because of the oversupply stage?   Glenn: Yes. Yup.   James: Got it.   Glenn: Exactly.   James: And does it matter on which class apartment is it? Which location? Which city? Tertiary, primary market? Glenn: Oh, well. So here are the cities for apartments. And you can see Austin I think is still at its peak. You're not putting up quite enough. Most of the other cities are in that hyper supply phase. Where they're putting up a little too much. And so they're occupancy levels are dropping. Denver had a number of years of 8% rent growth. And because we're over building and you can see Denver way over, further down the cycle there at a position 13, our rent growth now is only running about 3%. James: Yeah. So for example, like the city on the hyper supply, I mean going to the recession on the point 14. So what you're looking at is you're looking at the supply that's coming into that city and looking at the demand for that city and that's where you're determining the point 14 for that particular city. Glenn: That's right. Yup. Because when I combined supply and demand, I can then forecast the occupancy level. Okay.   James: Got it.   Glenn: So there were no cities of Memphis, Miami, Orlando, and San Jose. I don't expect them to get anything more than inflation, which is we're right about two percent. James: Oh, you mean rent group, right about 2%.   Glenn: Right. So their rent growth is only going to match inflation.   James: So at point 14 is supposed to be deaccelerating rent growth and recession. It should be like almost negative rent growth. Glenn: 12, 13 and 14 are decelerating rent growth. And point 14 is when rent growth should only be running at the rate of inflation, which if you remember back to your economics class, we have nominal inflation and real inflation or nominal growth and real growth. All that is, is nominal growth if the price of something goes up, that's inflation. So if we have 2% inflation, if you've got like GDP growing at 3%, that's nominal GDP growth. So 3% nominal GDP growth, subtract inflation of 2% and real GDP growth is 1%. James: Got it. So what about at point 11, the cities who are estimated to be at the final phase of expansion, still in expansion where; what is the percentage of expectation of rent growth for that kind of cities? Glenn: Well it will vary by city, but it's probably going to be, well, let's back up one slide there. And when you're at peak occupancy, you've seen historic rent gross as much as here's four and a half, here's almost 5%. This little peak here is that 3%. Okay. So again, and I do this model that you see here individually for each city. James:  Okay. How do we get access to that data to get a rent growth prediction for each city? Glenn: So, well that's what researchers do is we model and project things and I get my historic data from CoStar, the company that does all the major property types and I get supply information, demand information, occupancy levels, rent growth. So I can model every city. James: But your model of forecast is not available for public consumption, that's mainly for your research, I guess? Glenn: This is my forecast report that you're looking at here. And my regular market cycle report I give away free. It's actually on our website at the University of Denver. So if you go to du.edu/burns school, I'm in the Franklin Burns School of Real Estate, scroll of the bottom of the page and you'll see my market cycle forecast so you can get those for free. We sell a subscription to my forecast report that comes out four times a year. It's only a thousand dollars and that money goes into a fund to support research on real estate and sustainability. James: Got it, got it. So my question is on a specific city, for example, I'm buying a deal in Memphis and I'm trying to do a five year projection on my performer to show it my investors and raise money for you. So usually a lot of people use a 3% or 2% rent growth for next five years. But what you're saying is that's not correct, right? Because that's not how it's being forecast.   Glenn: They need to take a look at the city where it is in its cycle and it might be doing better and might be doing worse than that.   James: So how do we get that number rather than saying three or 2% blindly, is there a place where we can go and say it's 3% the next one year but after that it is going to be 1% for year 2 or second year or third year?   Glenn: Yep. So CoStar, you can subscribe to CoStar.   James: Okay.   Glenn: They do projections on all this stuff. City by city property type by property type.   James: Okay. CoStar for projections. Got it. Got it.       Glenn: Okay. Also Jones Lang LaSalle has their own research and forecasting group, so you can go there as well. For your individual investors who probably aren't doing enough to spend that kind of money on research. Most of them are probably working with a broker when they're looking to purchase properties operate the properties, lease the properties, et cetera. When they're talking to a broker, they should ask, do you have CoStar access for your city and your property type. And the broker is allowed to share that information and those forecasts with them. James: Got it, got it. And what about the cap rate? I mean, when we talk about rent growth, deaccelerating it's also meaning cap rate being expanding, right? So is there a place... Glenn: Okay, so we're almost there. Let me just finish this and then we'll jump right over to the financial cycle. Okay, here's retail; and the key thing here is that you can see that we are at the highest level of occupancy ever in retail. People go that doesn't make sense, got all these companies going out of business and everything else. So series is going out of business. What am I students family owns a mall in Macon, Georgia and series goes out of business. They open up the center of roof of the building on one side they put an experience retail, two restaurants, a movie theater and an escape room. On the other side, they're building four stories of apartments on top of the space. So they're actually going to have higher occupancy and rent going forward. We're replacing these department stores with experience retail and remember supply; we're not building a lot of new retail, number one, but we're also repurposing a lot of retail.   So many times a retail center that's not working, convert it to office space or today Amazon is trying to get that last mile delivery to you on the same day, convert that into closed in warehouse space where you can deliver it to someone the same day. So retail is doing well because it's got a low level of demand growth, it does have some. But it has an even lower level of supply growth, hence the high occupancy rate. But you can see that the rent growth is really pretty low too. It's only one and 2% going forward. James: So retail is more of a play off, people have given up on retail and there's not many people building but it's still a demand there that's why the occupancy is much higher. Glenn: Right, right. So again, most of the markets at the peak and then hotels, we are again at the highest occupancy rate we've ever seen. That's because millennials like experiences versus things. So they're doing a lot more travel. And we're in the process because hotels are extremely profitable at that high occupancy rate. We're seeing a lot more new hotels being built. So a lot of markets kind of heading over the top and Austin being one of those, where you're actually putting up a lot of new hotels. So when you think about it, the one property type that's the best in Austin is actually apartments at this point; highest occupancy, highest rent growth. So that's the income side of real estate. All we talked about is occupancies and rent growth. How much income can I get?   James: Yes.   Glenn: Now let's talk about the financial cycle and its capital flows that drive the prices and we look at that as cap rates. So the blue lines is the real estate cycle, the black lines, the capital flow cycle, and it should work as when things aren't very good, not much capital. The line's flat there at the bottom. As things get better, capital goes up. The highest rate of growth is when we go through that 0.8 now yellow where we reach cost feasible rents; capital flow peaks out in the hyper supply phase and then drops off very quickly. Now remember that we've got two types of capital flowing in the real estate. The green shaded area up here is capital flows to existing property. So if you buy a property from me for a higher price than I paid that's more capital flow. The other capital flow at the bottom is capital flows to new construction, adding more buildings in, so producing more properties.  Real estate, I consider it a separate asset class. So we've got stocks, equities, bonds, and commercial income producing real estate. It's about 20% of the marketplace. So for me, as I talk to and have worked with for 25 years, institutional investors, they should have a separate allocation to real estate. You should have a separate allocation to real estate in your retirement account. If you could only do public equities buy rates. Directly you can buy into funds or you can actually own properties yourself. But remember, when you buy a property, you just bought a business. You've got to operate it, you got to rent it, you got to take care of it, you got to maintain it, pay the taxes, you're operating a business. So when we look back over history, here's the history of ten year treasuries, you can see it going from 2% back in the 50's to 15% in 1982 to today, back to 2% with the forecast that it's going to go up but of course for the last 10 years, that's exactly what that forecast has looked like and it's always been wrong.   We've been running in the 2% range since the year 2010. So notice the total return between 1981 and 2017 is 8.4%. That's because as interest rates go down, bond values go up, your bonds appreciate. But if you think bonds are a good place to be today, go to the left hand side and when you go from two to the long-term average of five, eight, the total return has only one nine because if you bought a bond at a 2% interest rate, $1,000 bond at 2% and interest rates go to four and you want to sell that bond, the new buyer is going to want a 4% yield. So they're going to give you $500 instead of a thousand for that bond. So you're going to lose money on your bonds. So that's why today bonds kind of don't make any sense. Real estate versus stocks and bonds. It's only had five years of negative returns versus over 20 for both stocks and bonds, and it is capital flowing. That money coming in that makes a difference. So here's a company, real capital analytics that collects data on every commercial real estate transaction in the US over two point $5 million. The bars go up, the bars go down and their price index, which is along the top there, you can see follows that pretty closely. So as more people buy, prices go up. When people back off, like during the great recession of oh nine prices come down.   James: Is that the international money coming in or is that local money coming in or it's just [37:20unclear] you're easing   Glenn: I will be answering that question in two slides. When we look at the cap rate, which is the simple way to describe that, it's like a bond yield or cash on cash return. Back in 2001 cap rates were around eight to 9% and then as prices went up, cap rates dropped to a low in 2007 of around six to 7%. Great recession happened, property prices drop, cap rates go back up, so you're getting a better cash yield when you buy. Since then cap rates have been coming down and they're down at a low of mainly in the six and a half to 7% range except for apartments which are at five and a half. Now of course hotels are higher because they're riskier at eight and everyone says, well, so interest rates have to go up, therefore cap rates have to go up. Not true. All the historic studies done, and I've done some myself show that the correlation between interest rates and cap rates is no more than about 20% that's not what drives it. It's capital flow.   As a matter of fact just came from a conference where two different real estate economists say we expect cap rates to go even lower next year because there's so much money out there around the world trying to find yield, trying to find income and bonds don't have it. Today the US stock market [38:51unclear] 500 dividend yield is 1.2%. The 10 year treasury, which is risk-free, is 1.7%; corporate bonds are running around three to three and a half and you can buy into properties earning six. So that's quite different isn't it?   James: So what you're saying is the capital is going to continue, I mean your prediction is the climate is going to continue to go down in apartments and any, is it within all asset classes...?   Glenn: Cap rates are most likely going to be staying about where they are or coming in and it depends upon the property or coming down just a little bit. They probably won't go down in retail because people don't believe that retail's coming back yet. So one way to look at this as take the risk free rate of the 10 year treasury, ask how much additional yield income am I going to get over that risk free rate of the 10 year treasury. So that's the spread above the 10 year treasury. Here you can see that the spread was 375 back in 2001 it dropped down to only 150 basis points in 2007 but today you're getting somewhere between 275 and 600 points over the 10 year treasury for taking that additional risk of investing in real estate. So from that standpoint, real estate looks like a very strong buy as an investment and because of that, what we see is real capital analytics collects data from all over the world and this shows money going from one country to another. So at the top you see the United States in 2018, we don't have the 2019 yet numbers yet, sorry; into Spain, put $11 billion into Spain, that was 15% higher than the previous year. Because they believe the Spanish economy has finally figured itself out and is going well. The next one was France coming into the United States with money. $8.8 billion of French investors buying us real estate. The next one, the United States going in the UK, a $7.9 billion, that's a 20% decrease. Why do you think it went down?   James: Because of the Brexit?   Glenn: Yes, everybody has...   James: [41:03unclear]   Glenn: When Brexit happens, the economy in England will go down and hence if the economy slows, occupancy rates will go down and rent rates will drop. So you can see that money moves around the world and the most expensive property in the United States today, would be a class A office building in downtown New York City. It will go for a 3.8% cap rate. In London, the same size class A office building will go for a 2% cap rate.   James: Got it.   James: In Tokyo or Singapore, a class A office building will go for a 1% cap rate. So an English investor looks at the US and says, Hey, I can buy a top quality property for half price and an Asian investor goes, wow, I can buy a property in the US for a quarter of the cost in Asia. So we are the largest economy in the world. We're the safest economy. We have good laws that protect investors. In China you could invest there, but the government, since it's communists, could next year decide that oh, we own everything anyway, we're taking it away from you. So capital is flowing in the United States and I believe that keeps prices high and cap rates low. James: What about this trade war with China? I mean, I know it's a bit cooling down, but it's cooling down and heating up; so how is that going to be impacting the money flow to the US? Glenn: Well we've already hit the first level of agreement on it and it certainly did not hurt our economy in any major way. If you look here down at number seven, China and the United States $8.375 billion up 8% back in 2018 when it was first in process and our president was threatening. Chinese investing in the United States went up not down. Why? Because Chinese investors are trying to get their money out of their country where they thought it might slow down and move it into our country or where it was safer.   James: Correct.   Glenn: Okay. James: So this is a very awesome slide because it shows where all the money flows in the world and you can clearly see that a lot of money coming to the US which is important for capital flow too or real estate prices. Glenn: Right. So here's a slide from NAREIT, the national association of real estate investment trusts; you can find this on their website and they're showing historic cycles at being 17 years long. So the first cycle there from 1972, which is when they start having data through 1989, the green line, the total average return per year for publicly traded rates was 13.9%. The next cycle, 1989 through 2007, just before our great recession total return was over 14% a year. And here we are kind of halfway through the next cycle. 10 years in and so far the average return has been 3.9, but that's because of that big drop during the great recession and you had to recover the money that you lost. So I believe we're kind of mid cycle and a fair amount of expansion to go. James: So we are not going to die of old age I guess. Not because of the cycle is too long and we are due for a correction. Glenn: Correct. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. If you want, we can do a quick summary or any other questions you have? James: I have a few questions. So in terms of development, so in this market cycle, let's say for example in apartments, if you look at the apartment, the market cycle that we put in, we are in hyper supply. I mean, of course you say we have like 10% additional supply it's not because there's no demand, but is this the right time to do development? Because I saw somewhere in your studies that the best time to start your development is 75% on the expansion cycle. If I'm not mistaken. Glenn: Right. I would love to be developing at points six seven eight on the cycle James: That's 0.6 or 67% of the whole cycle on the upward trend before it reached the equivalent, right? Glenn: Well, I know, let's go back to my cycle graph and we want to be, let's go to the apartment one as a matter of fact. So I would like to be developing points 6, 7, 8 and maybe 9 in the cycle. What's happening is a lot of people are over here putting up new properties at 12, 13, and 14. James: So right now, I mean, your chart shows the apartments at the 13, which means it's not the best time to really do development ideas.   Glenn: Correct.   James: And what about people, I mean, some of the investors who are doing like bridge loans or long-term loans. I mean there's pro and con in both, but what would you recommend in this market cycle? Glenn: Well, when you say a long-term note, you mean give me a mortgage on a property? James: Yeah. Getting a mortgage with agency debt or fixed rate long-term versus a bridge loan, which is a short term financing. Glenn: So bridge loans are basically taking the risks that properties being developed or redeveloped and that it will be successful upon completion. Whereas a long-term mortgage you get the first money, so the rents that come in and have to be high enough to pay your mortgage payment and if there's nothing leftover, then the equity investors aren't making any return in those years. So again you can buy an apartment and it most likely is going to cash-flow but it's a full time job to manage a big property, make sure it's done right, and finance it properly and everything else. That's why pretty much every university in the country today has a real estate program. We are actually at university of Denver, the second oldest real estate program in the country started in 1938. Where you are both an undergraduate or graduate and an executive online program so you can be at home and get your master's degree in real estate from us. James: Got it. Got it. Right. Wow really, I should probably look at that. But the other question I have, especially on this chart, why is it not symmetrical? I mean, I know during the recovery and expansion, it's just a longer cycle and update like a slight down. Glenn: Great question; and that's because historically we've had 11 years of up cycle and only three or four years of a down cycle. As a matter of fact, I'll go back to the, one of the slides that I bounced past earlier on, and that is this here you can see previous economic cycles, they last anywhere from 5 to 10 years historically and recessions are normally one to two years long. The great recession at two and a half years was the longest recession that we've seen since the great depression in the 1920s. James: Got it. Got it. And what about the the industrial office and other property types what do you think would try for in the next, I mean other than apartments, among all these property types, what would be the best property type to invest for the next five years? I would say from your perspective. Glenn: Here's the chart. Office has got the longest run in the expansion cycle followed by retail. Power centers doesn't mean that stuff can't sit at the top for a long time too. So if it keeps going, I believe we've got a good five year run of demand for industrial space going forward. James: Got it. By is office being driven by some factor. I mean, technology, right? I mean, a lot of technology people work from home too, right? So I'm not sure where that drive is coming from for office. Glenn: Basically more and more of the jobs in the United States are office using jobs and people start going crazy sitting at home and we're social animals. And so being together with other people and that social interaction actually benefits the work for every company, that's why we work. When you start a company, instead of working on your garage, you can now go and rent some, we work space on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. They charge you plenty for it, but now you've got a space to be in, all the amenities that are necessary there. There's a receptionist, there's copy machines, there's all the different things that you need to be successful; collaboration, conference rooms, all those kinds of things. So most new companies start out by going to you short term office rental space. Last year that was 10% of the demand in office. James: Got it. And what about the Amazon effect? Is that just on the industrial? Because I read somewhere that they own like 25% of the...   Glenn: Last year Amazon rented 25% of all warehouse space, new warehouse space rented in the United States. That's how much they're growing. They opened a 1 million square foot warehouse North of Denver and hired 1500 people.   James: Wow. What about this boom in marijuana and all that happening on some of the coastal cities is that impacting any of these property types? Glenn: The, I'm sorry, the? James: Like, they have this marijuana, right? Like you know like medical marijuana and...? Glenn: So yeah. Well Colorado was one of the first and it created a huge demand for warehouse space here in Denver and drove our rents from $3 to $6 over a two year period. I can see if you went to basically 100% all the old crappy warehouse got rented up to grow marijuana. And since we're one of the first States where marijuana tourism became very big. Now that other States are picking it up, less people are coming and we've had a couple of marijuana companies go out of business and so all of a sudden, and we built a lot of new space for them and so now we're in the hyper supply phase because that economic base industry in Denver is shrinking. James: Got it, got it. What would you advise an investor, let's say for example an apartment investor who are more in the hyper supply stage right now, what would you advise that person to be cautious of as we move forward for the next five years? If keep what? Keep on buying or do you want to be more defensive? Glenn: Well, if you believe that there is a recession coming, then what you want to do is have what we call defensive assets. You want to be in the best markets, the highest, the bigger markets like the ones that I show and the ones that I have in bold and italics. You want to be in higher quality properties that can attract and retain tenets and you want to try and get the longest term leases you can get to bridge you through the next down cycle. James: Got it, got it. And what about tertiary market? Is it a good idea to go into tertiary market looking for yield? Because I know some of the tertiary market is [52:52unclear]? Glenn: Yes, but you have to be careful and very selective. You need to look at what is the economic base industry that's driving the growth in that market. So for instance, an economic base industry produces a good or service it exports outside of the local market that brings money in. So in Detroit, Michigan for decades it was auto, the auto industry did well, so did Detroit. When the auto industry turned down and we got a lot more foreign competition, Detroit became pretty much a ghost town. Now you've got a billionaire, a tech giant who came in and started buying up a bunch of office space in Detroit to run his company out of at next to nothing and hire people in saying, come here and live in oh, by the way, you can go buy an existing house here in Detroit for like 10 or $20,000. So instead of spending 3000 or $4,000 in San Francisco and rent, you can have a mortgage that's only a couple hundred bucks a month. So Detroit is starting to turn around because of the new economic base industry. This tech company creating demand for office and when you create demand for employment, then people buy things. So retail goes up and the demand for rental goes up, it just, it moves everything up and plenty of growth is the number one key thing to look at for demand for real estate. James: Got it. Got it. What about some of the government controls like rent control and some of the cities, some of the States that's happening right now, how is that going to be impacting the cap rate and the rent growth? Glenn Right. so rent control is the government interfering with the free market and it has shown that when that happens it severely restricts supply because no one wants to build if they're going to end up with rent control on their property where they can't raise rents to at least meet inflation. And so every place where that kind of stuff is coming into play, investors aren't buying and property prices are going flat. In the long-term they will hurt the market. It will create exactly the opposite. They're saying, oh, we're trying to make apartments more affordable for people. Well, it does just the opposite. People that are there end up with a lower rent and then they sit on it even when they now have a good job. And I'll give you an example. I have a good friend who owns an apartment building in San Francisco. He has four of his 20 units are rent controlled. One of the people in it was a guy that when he got in, he was in school. Now he is a very wealthy person and he continues since he had it, it can't be released. His rent is less than 25% of what market would be on his property. And he's there maybe one or two nights a month. And my friend keeps asking, why do you rent this for the month when you're only here two nights? He goes, because it's cheaper than a hotel. So it's bad government policy in my personal opinion. James: Yeah. It's crazy [56:25unclear] like, so does that mean some of the cities which doesn't have rent control will have a lot more price run up because a lot of people want to be investing in like for example, in Texas or maybe Florida, which doesn't have a lot of space doesn't have rent control. Would that mean that a lot of people from the East coast or West coast will be investing more on these states? Glenn: Potentially, yes. James: Okay. Okay. So I think I covered most of the questions that was asked in the Facebook group. If audience and listeners, you guys want to join this multifamily investors group in Facebook and we have almost 4,000 people there and now we are recording this as a podcast and a webinar, so you should be able to get the webinar as well as you register. So Dr. Glennn how do people get hold of you and get in touch with you? I believe you mentioned it halfway through, but... Glenn: Right. Yup. So they can go to the university of Denver website, which is du.edu/burnsshool, and a scroll to the bottom and they'll be able to see my cycle reports there. And there I've got my profile and all the other information there. That's the easiest way to do it. James: Awesome. Thank you very much for coming into the show and doing the webinar as well. Thank you very much. Glenn: Okay, thank you. Have a blessed day.   James: Have a good day. Glenn: Bye.

James: Let's get started. One, two, three... Hi, audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Investment Group. Today we are going to be having JC Castello from our Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. And I would like to welcome JC to the podcast. Hey JC, welcome. JC: Hey, thanks, James. Thanks for having me. James: So JC has what? Right now, around 725 units worth around 70 million and he has bought and sold like 1000 over units. And he primarily focuses on DFW and he's in the Bay area. So, did I get all your facts right, JC? JC: Yeah. You got in just about right. That's right. James: So, do you want to tell our audience about, how did you get started? How is your company structured? Because your company structure, it's very interesting for me. So go ahead and do that. JC: Yeah, I mean, how I got started in the multifamily business. I have an engineering degree and I've been working in the technology sector in a past life for about 15 to 20 years in semiconductors. And somewhere along the way, I always had a big passion for real estate. Pretty early on in my semiconductor career, I started buying single-family rentals in the Silicon Valley area and realized that I needed to be able to scale it a lot better because I was so busy with work that managing single-families wasn't all that easy. So I started just going to a lot of networking events, real estate clubs and whatnot, asking a lot of questions of people and I found out about apartments and found out that they were a lot more scalable. And so, I read everything I could. I got my hands in all kinds of books and went to lots of different seminars and training and networked with a bunch of the local investors here in Silicon Valley. I had sold a couple of my single-family homes originally wanted to buy an apartment complex here in San Jose. And I did all the numbers and it was negative cash flow, pretty much from the beginning. And I thought, well if I'm gonna buy for equity because there's no cash flow, I'd rather just keep buying homes because I think homes in Silicon Valley are better equity drivers than an apartment complex. So that led me to really look outside of California for cash flowing apartment investments. And I did a lot of research and everything was telling me that Texas was a great area to go. I mean, this was back in like 2004/5. And so, after a little bit of research and some time passed about 2006/7, I was ready to kinda go and take my money out to Texas and get it going. And so kind of, that's how I got started and that's kind of how my company was born. James: Awesome. Awesome. So, yeah, I was in the Bay area a couple of days back and I'm meeting some of my investors. It's just so crazy, the prices there. And I mean, one of the investors asked me, 'You know, why don't you buy in this area?" I said, "I like to make money from thin air." Then he asked, "How is that?" I said, "I like my tenants to pay for my mortgage." So which means I want it to be cash flowing and I still get cashflow on top of it. So pay the mortgage and get cash flow. So if you buy in the Bay area or even in LA, I mean, a lot of coastal cities, just the cap rate is so low, you know, you basically, appreciation play, which means you buy the deal and you pray that it's going to go up. Right? So, JC: Yeah. And look, I'm not here to tell you or tell anybody that investing in real estate in California is not a good thing. It's actually a very, very good thing. I mean, I own personal homes here in California and various places and they've been great investments for me, but they're not cash flow investments; they're equity plays. And so over the 10, 20, 30 years, absolutely; it's been phenomenally great, including any of the single family rentals that I had in the past. But I like to buy single family homes here in an equity state and I like to buy cash flowing properties for apartments in other more cashflow yielding places like Texas. So that's kind of my investment philosophy. James: Got it, got it. So you started like in 2006, 2007. So at what point of your life was that, were you working at that time and how did you get that aha moment, okay, I need to invest in real estate? JC: Yeah. Well you know, in 2001 and you would know this, James, I think you're an ex tech guy, there was the whole technology bubble burst. And I was several years out of college in a professional working environment, got laid off from an engineering job and that really caused me to do a little bit of reflection in 2001 after September 11 hit. And that's kind of where I had my aha moment, if you will. And right around that time, I read Rich Dad/ Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki, which changed my perspective on things as did I know a lot of other people. And it taught me about assets and liabilities first and foremost. Assets put money in your pocket, liabilities take money out of your pocket. And I realized that even though I had been a young guy that had been successful and, and bought my own single-family home, really, it wasn't putting money into my pocket because it was a liability. I had to pay the mortgage every month. So long story short, I decided that I was going to start investing in rental real estate as I got back into my next technology job, once the sort of 2001 recovery happened and that's what I did. Ever since then, I was like, look, real estate rentals are going to be what the thing that I'm going to do is and I'm pretty passionate about it anyways. I always liked real estate, so that's exactly kind of how I got started on my path. And I worked all the way up at my job until 2011 which is when I effectively left my W2 semiconductor job. I actually also helped start another company up with a couple of my other buddies from my ex-technology company. And so we did a startup company that was successful as well. And we did that from about 2012 to 2018. Actually the company's still going, but I'm no longer part of it. So I like to work really hard. James, I'll tell you that much. James: That's crazy. So, I mean, you are a tech guy. I mean, I didn't know until we talk a few months back on how many similarities we have. I used to be in the semiconductor industry as well. So I mean, why not you looked at stock at that time? I mean a stock used to be like, I mean a lot of engineers, like for me, I was like intrigued with stocks. I was always saying, let me solve the worldwide puzzle here of the stock market. So did you try that as well? JC: Yeah, definitely in my younger years. I mean, I drank the Koolaid like everybody else, you know, I was in love with the stock market. And I saw tech stocks, every day going up like gangbusters. So it was like, okay, let's pick Broadcom, let's pick Cisco, let's pick all these other tech stocks that were going to make us all multi-millionaires. And it was kind of a wild ride because there would be some big ups and then there would be some big downs. And so, it just got really frustrating because I find myself thinking about how our stocks were doing every day and sort of checking in on E-Trade accountants and seeing whether I had made money or lost money. And I just said, look, it's not worth it. I don't want to live like that. So, I think what I've learned since then is, look, I'm not here to say that the stock market isn't a great investment. I think what I'm here to say is that a financial advisor that's worth his salt is going to tell you that you should definitely have a good healthy mix of stocks, bonds, money market, and alternative assets, which real estate certainly fits the bill. And I think that 10 to 20% is about what people recommend that are financial experts in terms of how much you should be allocated to things like real estate. So I'm a big believer that people should never swing too much any one way. Make sure and be a little bit diversified, but certainly, 10 to 20% at least in real estate is a good healthy number. James: Got it. Yeah, I mean, I was intrigued with stocks as well and you know, it's all technical analysis. I did a lot of book reading and trying to solve and you know, Japanese candlesticks books and all that. But I think it works with a lot of fear and emotion. I mean, fear is great, it works with a lot of emotions. Which is, you can say numbers don't lie but in the stock market, the numbers can be manipulated using fear and greed by big institutions and that's where I got caught. Every time I go to stock markets, I lose money. JC: And the other thing too, I think the other thing that's important to understand is, it's not just about how much you're making before tax. One of the things that I think I'd made the mistake of as a younger person was not fully understanding how to invest with maximum tax sheltering and maximum tax advantage. And one of the things that I've seen with real estate investing is that there are huge tax incentives out there. Everything legal that encourages you as a real estate investor to keep doing it. And there are extremely, especially now with the tax cuts and jobs act that was passed and that went into effect in November of 2017. The benefits of the tax sheltering piece of real estate investing is extremely phenomenal. And so I think that the real aha moment is not just that you can invest in real estate and make good cash flow, but it's that you can invest in real estate, make good cash flow, and not pay taxes on that cash flow that you're putting in your pocket. That's really amazing. James: Got it, got it. So, coming back to your transition from a W2 job to a full-time real estate entrepreneur. So you said you started in 2006, but only after quite a number of years. When did you become a full-time person? JC: 2012. James: Okay. So what were you thinking in 2012, beginning January of 2012, what were you thinking and when did you resign and what was that trigger that allowed you...? JC: Well, you know, the trigger was, as I told you, I'm a 'slow and steady wins the race' type of person. My investment philosophy is 'go long, not short'. I always like to take the long route cause I believe in taking as little risk as possible to get where you want to get. So, I stayed with my company and my job for a long time and maybe even longer than I needed to because I also did another company with a couple of other buddies. But what that did was that gave me a real stable base so that I was never taking any risk. And so my route in real estate has never been to take big risks and I apply that same philosophy to our company in the way that we buy properties and the way that we look to partner with investors. We are always going to take the lower risk path. We're not just looking at yields and looking for the highest yields. We're looking for the highest mix of risk-adjusted returns. That's what we're looking for. And so that is I think a fundamental piece of why my journey took a little bit longer, in terms of transitioning away from a W2 job. James: So did you have a goal of a certain income level, a certain percentage of your W2? I mean, you don't have, tell me the percentage, but was that goal that you decided if I hit this much income in real estate, okay, I'm going to go full time into this. I'm okay to let go of my...? JC: Yeah. I mean, I definitely had some numbers in mind and they were, obviously, based on my costs of living. So as soon as I was able to bring in enough free cash flow that was greater than or equal to my cost of living with some margin, then I was comfortable exiting. And so, I think that's an important consideration for anybody that's doing this stuff. And you want to make sure, you know, you don't need to be necessarily significantly positive, but your costs of living, whatever it is, you should really be able to at least cover that. And I'm not talking about with like, you know, I'm talking about just with money coming in from rentals and whatnot, not talking about, you know all the other fees and whatnot that you generate. James: Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I mean, just advice to whoever listening. Sometimes you go for the weekend boot camp and you think that there's no point of working a W2 job. I mean, there's no such thing, right? I mean, real estate is awesome but it takes time to get to a certain level of income. And especially if you have [13:22unintelligible] in life, just don't give up on your work and go into real estate; take it slow and steady and you will get there. I mean, there's a lot of learnings to be done in real estate anyway that you can't learn in a weekend boot camp. JC: It's very, very wise words. And I hope that anybody out there would listen to that. James: Yeah, absolutely. So now you're in California, right? I mean, I don't know which year was this. So now you look at Dallas. Why did Dallas flash in front of your eyes? Why not Phoenix or Austin or Orlando, Tampa? JC: Well, Texas, as a whole. When I was doing my research, one of the big stats that jumped out to me was that I believe it was in 2008...I think it was 2008, Texas became the number two state in terms of the number of Fortune 500 companies headquartered in the state. It actually surpassed California. And before that, I had seen a lot of data that was telling me that this transition was happening from a corporate side. And from a corporate side, as we all know, Texas has a very business-friendly state. And I also saw a lot of migration patterns that were happening that were driving people away from the coastal areas, specifically California, and driving them to Texas. Also to Pheonix but not in the sheer magnitude that they were going to Texas. So really for me, what convinced me to go to Texas was the data and it was the job growth, the population growth. And the other thing that really convinced me was the quality of life that could be had in Texas for a relatively low amount of money. Back in 2006, when I first started buying out there, you could buy a pretty decent home for 150 to $200,000 in Dallas, Fort worth. Now, of course, you know, I had to decide, you know, it wasn't just Texas, it's where you're going to go in Texas. There are basically four major areas you can go; you can go to Houston, you can go to San Antonio, you can go to Austin or you can go to DFW. I chose DFW because Houston, to me, was a little bit more of an oil-based economy so I didn't like being dependent on oil. If the oil was good, everything's good in Houston. If oil goes bad, it can be a little bit difficult. And Austin, I really, really liked; I continue to love Austin. However, I always knew that Austin was like Silicon Valley. The dirt is very expensive, so the cap rates are a little bit lower so they don't cash flow quite as well. But I still do like Austin if I had to say, the second market in Texas. San Antonio is just sort of a little bit slow and steady. There's really no significant job growth, at least not significant, you know, amazingly. And there's slow and steady population growth. So everything in San Antonio is hunky-dory for a long time, but there's no real like superstar momentum there. DFW, on the other hand to me, had a lot of the characteristics that I felt was perfect for an investment home for me. I wanted to be there for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. They've got a very diverse economy, lots of different jobs sectors and they are tops in the nation for job growth, population growth, consistently. And the quality of life there is very, very good. There are 8 million people, 4th largest metroplex in the nation behind New York, one; LA, two and Chicago three. And actually, of those top three, they're all sort of negative population. So meaning, they're losing people in Texas; Dallas Fort worth is gaining. So for all those reasons, I thought back then that this would be a great place for us to go set up shop and I haven't been disappointed. It's been a great run, to be honest with ya. James: Got it. So now you decided on Dallas. What was the first step? I mean, who did you first establish contact with and how did you build your team? JC: Yeah, you know I was a big believer in shadowing people. So I had a couple of friends that I had met and gotten to know in the local Silicon Valley real estate circles who were buying apartments in Dallas. And so, I would shadow them. I would get on a plane and go with them when they would go check on their properties. And because they saw that I was willing to do that, they took me around to the local brokerage shops, Marcus & Millichap and all the other shops and they introduced me to all the brokers. And because these guys were already doing deals and established when the brokers met me, I had a little bit of credibility, not much, but I had more than just if I had come in on my own without them saying that I was a good guy. So that's the way that I got my start in the apartment world in Dallas, coming from California. James: Got it. So, I mean, if I understand your business, you own the asset management, but you also own your own property management company. JC: That's correct. Yeah. We opened up shop in 2013. We integrated the third party operations in house and we formed our own management company and we've been managing our own properties since then. James: So that's really unique because I mean, even for me, we have our own property management company, but we are here in Austin, San Antonio, so we are locals. But how did you do it from California and then you establish a property management company and why did you decide to do that rather than a third-party property management company? JC: Well, the how and the why. The why, I sometimes ask myself why multiple times. But I know after getting through all the hard times and now that we've got a model that works really, really well, I know that it was worth it for us. Because we have a large degree of predictability by having operations in house. I never throw stones at third party management companies because I've walked a mile in their shoes now. And I think it's a difficult business even when you control it yourself. And I think that third party managers, for the most part, are extremely good. I'm not here to say that we have built a significantly better mousetrap, but what we do have is we have a mousetrap that we built. And so, we know the process of how we go to market with it and we know what the numbers are and so, we have a high degree of predictability for our investors. At the end of the day, it's all about making sure that we deliver what we said we're going to do for our investors. And so the predictability piece that we have by having the operations in-house for us is key. How did I do it? You know, it wasn't easy. I think that you have to look for a superstar person that you can find that has enough talent to be able to sort of get this off the ground in the local market that you've built your portfolio in. And I was fortunate enough to find that person through a lot of hard work and some luck. And once I found that person, I knew that it was going to work and that was the big difference for me. James: And when you started in 2013, how many units did you have that you were convinced that you can have your own property management company? JC: It wasn't that many. I think we had maybe four properties, maybe five properties, something like that. James: Like a few hundred units. JC: Yeah. A few hundred units. Yeah, that's right. James: So who was this first person, what was that person's role? I mean, you don't have to name names, but I want to know the role of that person. JC: I mean, they were the VP of Operations. That's what they did. Everything related to operations was what they were responsible for. James: So you hired VP of Operations and from VP of Operation, the other person hired the rest of the crew? JC: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, look, we're only 725 units currently, so we don't necessarily have a bunch of regional managers working for our company and we're set up a little bit differently than sort of your traditional management companies. But what I will say is that you really need that foundational person, that foundational piece if you want to have a successful operation in any one given market. James: Okay. Okay. Got it. But what was that aha moment in 2012 that you said, okay, I can't do this anymore 2013, I'm going to do my own property management? What was that push over the cliff moment that you said, okay, I'm giving up on this? JC: You know, I can't say that there was any one particular thing. I think that it was always our strategy to open up our own shop because we wanted to make sure that we had a high degree of predictability within the operations piece. And that's a very valuable component for our investment partners. Being fully integrated doesn't mean much unless it provides good predictability for returns. And what we've seen is that we've enjoyed a very, very high degree of predictability with having our own operations piece. So we're going to continue to have that as part of our model, but at the same time, we're never completely committed to any one particular thing. So meaning that we have a fiduciary duty to do what's best for our investors. If at any given time we understood that our operations or our management piece wasn't the best strategy, then we would certainly look at divesting that piece. I don't see that happening, but we're always open to making sure that we're doing the best thing for our investors. James: So how frequently do you travel from California to Dallas to manage this operation? JC: Well, I tried to get out there, my wife will say I'm out there all the time and I sometimes look back at my calendar and go, yeah, I think she might be right. But usually, it works out to be about six to eight weeks time, is how long I'm out there. And I'm usually out there for a couple of days and I get back to the home base. James: So six to eight weeks through it the year? JC: Right. James: Got it. Got it. So you've tried maybe like once a month or less than once a month, depends on...? JC: Yeah. And it's really as needed too because I have a pretty good system. So I mean, I can jump on a plane tomorrow morning and so it just depends. I get out there as needed, you know, immediately when needed. James: Okay. So let's go into the operational aspects. So you're in California, your operation management, the whole company is here. You have a VP of Operations, you are sitting that you're not coming to Dallas. So tell me like in a week, how would you manage this operation? Is it through Zoom calls, through weekly meetings, through properties or how do you do your asset management? JC: Well, first of all, asset management is handled by a separate person at our company, at multifamily property group. So we do have an asset management person. And in terms of operations, I think as you rightly pointed out, there's a lot of things that we do with technology these days to make it pretty efficient to be managing from another state; Zoom meeting, like what we're doing here is a great one. Lots of phone calls, lots of emails. And also I'm a big believer in driving the company by key performance indices or indicators. And so KPIs, for us, are a big deal because we pretty much keep on top of the numbers from a day to day basis and we manage according to how the numbers are telling us to manage and we go deep where we see that we're having issues with any one particular area. And so, we have a pretty structured way about how we monitor what's happening on the operations piece. And everybody's got a pretty strict lead defined set of roles and responsibilities, which kind of helps to keep everything in motion even though I'm not in the Dallas area. James: Got it. So how frequent do you look at your financials? JC: How frequently do we look at it? I mean, almost every day. James: Okay, good. So when you look at it everyday, what are the KPIs that you look for to see whether the properties are in the right direction or not? JC: Yeah. The big ones we're going to track are income to budget. We're gonna track expenses to budget, especially repairs and maintenance and CAPEX. A CAPEX, the budget, we're going to track, we're going to track current vacancy and we're going to track future vacancy. We're also going to pay strict attention to resident retention; how many people are actually renewing their leases? One of the things on the operational piece that we've learned along the way is that you have basically with the property, you've got a front door and you've got a back door. The front door is where you lease the new units and you bring the new residents in. And the back door is where you have people either renewing their leases after they've been there for a year or you have them leaving your property. And we like to talk about closing the back door because if we can get people to renew their leases, that is worth literally thousands of dollars in expenses and vacancy and marketing to our profitability. So, I think as operators and as investors, we always want to think about buying a property and renovating it and filling it up with people. But we should more care about keeping the people happy and butts in the seats because that's where we're really going to save our money once the property has been stabilized. It takes about 18 months to 24 months to stabilize a property once you buy it and create the value. But then if you're a longterm holder, like we are, you're holding the property for a long period of time. And that's really dependent on how well you operate, how well you provide customer service and how well you can keep the people renewing their leases. So for us, we really like to focus on resident retention. That's a really big deal for us. James: So that's one of the biggest KPI that you look for, resident retention? JC: Absolutely. James: Making sure that back doors close. So can you tell us like one to two things that you do to keep residents renewing? JC: You know, it's really simple, right? You don't want to get too caught up in a lot of complicated stuff so one of the biggest things that you need to do is follow up with people after work orders. Make sure that they're happy. Make sure that the work order was completed.; first of all, completed. Second of all, was it done right? And third of all was the customer happy with the experience? James: So, I think the resident retention is one of the most important things that you guys look at, especially closing the back door. And can you tell us one to two things that you and your company do to make sure that people keep on renewing or motivated to renew? JC: Yeah, I mean, it's important to focus on from a very high level, really the most what should be obviously simple strategies and have a process in place to make sure that it gets followed through. Like, for example, if there's a worker that's placed, following up with the person with a phone call, the customer, and saying, "Hey, was the work order done to your satisfaction? Did you have a good experience, how did you feel about it?" And that's a big deal because a lot of people that don't have work orders completed the right way are the ones that are gonna end up leaving the property with a bad taste in their mouth. And then a lot of people are actually surprised when we call them and they basically are just happy that we chose to call them and follow up. And that actually makes them so much happier, to begin with. So I think following up on work orders. The other thing is following up after a move in and making sure that the unit was fully functional; if there was something that was missed, making sure that you take care of it. And then the other thing that I think is really important is when it comes time to renew, you need to give the resident enough runway, to listen to them when you want to call them to renew. Because they're always going to have some concerns, either if the rent's going up or something. But normally it's actually, a lot of times it's just, "Hey, you know, I've got a couple of things wrong with my unit and I need you to fix them." And so, you've gotta be able to actually talk to them and understand why they're frustrated and fix those things and then they're willing to renew. So I think basic follow up is really the key. Following up with the resident on some sort of a documented frequency that enables you to keep a pulse on how they're feeling about their experience. James: Got it. Got it. So I presume that most of the deals that you buy, you try to do value add on the apartment, right? I mean, you guys do renovation, you've put in good management and all the smaller things in the interior and exterior, is that right? JC: Yeah, I mean basically you got it right. So number one is, acquire the deal at the right numbers. Number two is, renovate; which includes exterior amenities and unit upgrades. And then number three is, put a great operations team in place. And so those are sort of the three pillars of a successful investment and a successful life cycle of an investment for us at least. James: Got it. So what is the most valuable value add that you think in your mind that gives you the biggest bang for the buck? JC: You know, I really couldn't point to any one thing. What I would say is that your upgrades to your units are really important. Because a lot of people get sort of jaded by the exterior pops, like, you know, put some paint on the walls and stuff. But I've found that unit upgrades are really at the core of what you want to give in terms of your experience to the customers when they're walking through. And then the other thing that's really important is that there's a cohesive feel to the renovations that you do from the exterior; be it the painting or the amenities improvements. One of the things that I think people miss a lot is that they put money into exterior items, but there doesn't seem to be a cohesive feel. It doesn't feel like a clean, unified vision for what you wanted to present to the customer. And I think that's a big deal. It goes all the way down to the color schemes and it goes down to the signage and how that matches with the colors and how it matches with the amenities and also how it flows into the leasing office. You know, do the colors and the vision and what you're portraying with the signage and the exterior, does it match to what somebody is walking into the front door to lease a unit? Furthermore, do the units, sort of, match to the vision of what the exterior is saying? So, I think that it's not just one of these things, it's basically having a holistic approach to how you tie it all together so that it feels like a common vision when you drive to the front door all the way till when you go into the model unit. James: Got it. Interesting. Because you are looking at more of cohesiveness of the whole units and how they feel than a specific item. So let's go to your personal side of it. So I mean, you started in 2006 and then now it's 2019, you bought and sold like thousand units. So you must have a good write on the apartment cycles. So why do you do what you do? JC: Why do I do what I do? That's a good question. I think that ultimately what we're doing here is we're basically building a business that is focused on providing a great value to the community, to the customers, to the people that we rent our units to. I think it sounds cliche, but actually I think not enough people to do what we do actually talk about it. You know, when we come into a property and we invest multiple millions of dollars in the renovations and do the transformation of the property, really what we're doing is we're improving the lives of the community that lives there. And it makes a big difference in, we get told all the time how much they care to see all the stuff that we're doing. And so the first thing is making a difference in the community, I think is what's really, really cool. And we've done that over many, many properties now. So we've gotten to see that time and time again. I think the second thing is, partners. So we work with a lot of amazing partners, contractors, vendors, lenders, lawyers; there's so many that I can go on and on with. But what's really special about what we're doing is that we've developed really close relationships with a lot of these people that have been with us for many years. And so, we've become somewhat of friends with them as well as business associates. So it's really great to kind of see how much our success has impacted their success as well. And sort of a 'rising tide floats all boats things' mentality is where I get a lot of joy, personal satisfaction out of what we've done here. And I think the third thing is really is it's about our investors. I mean, I can tell you personal stories of many people that I'm very good friends with that have come along the ride for us, that we have literally changed their lives because of these great investments that we've been able to do over the years. And so I think that this business is about touching people's lives. Touching people's lives in every single aspect of what we're doing. For me, that's what really makes it fun for me every day. James: Would you do this same role for the next 20 years? JC: Yeah, of course, man. I'm not retiring. I mean, this is great. You know, we've got a great team, we've got a great company. And real estate investing to me it's more of a lifestyle thing too. So to be honest with you, this is something that I believe in doing irrespective of my company. This is sort of a personal belief that real estate investing is a very, very good way to take the money that you're making from whatever method that you're generating it and pump it into something that's going to give you a longterm return. James: Got it. Got it. Was there a proud moment in real estate that you think you will never forget that you can ride it on your tombstone? JC: Yeah. Well, I don't think I'm gonna put anything real estate related on my tombstone. James: Of course not. But if there was something that when you are at a very old age, you're going to think I'm really, really proud that I did that, can you describe that moment? JC: No, I don't think I've gotten there yet, man. I think there's still so much more to be done. You know, any proud moments, I think they're all stepping stones. I'm telling you, every day I wake up and I'm excited about where we're taking the company, things that we're doing to grow the company, new ideas that we've got. And I don't think we've reached our full potential in any way, shape, form, or fashion. James: Okay. no, what I mean is like, did you touch any employee in a certain way that, in terms of changing their life, any tenants, any property that you think that we really did a good job and that I'm really, really proud of that. JC: Yeah. I mean, you know, nothing particular comes to mind. I mean, look, I can give you a million examples, right? But the very last property, for example, that we renovated, I thought that it was the best one we've ever done. And I thought that just seeing the people that have been writing reviews on our property, coming online reviews and whatnot and hearing the feedback that we get from our management or our onsite staff has been so happy that we've made the change with the property. So yeah, that's very rewarding to us for sure. James: Got it. Got it. Top three things that you want to advice newbies who wanna walk your path. JC: I'm only going to give you one. I think it's the most important one. It is 'go long, not short.' Take the long road, do it slow and steady. Don't take unnecessary risks and make sure that you build the foundation and spend your time building a foundation solidly before you try to go too fast. I think that that's a mistake that a lot of people make. And I think that doing it slow and steady is there's a lot of benefits to that. And that's the way that we built our company. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah. I see so many craze out there on people want to do so many big things very quickly in real estate now because it is how the market is right now. So what's your strategy right now in this market cycle? JC: I don't think we really changed our strategy. We remain and always have been. We are opportunistic buyers and we're strategic sellers. I've talked about that before, I did a blog post on that. And the way that we've always seen it is, strategically speaking, if it's the right time to exit an asset, we're going to do it. It's been a great time lately to sell properties. It's also been a great time to keep properties, be a net keeper. We talk about that too. Opportunistically buying simply means that if we find a great deal, we don't care whether it's a hot market or a down market or a sideways market. If it's a great deal and the numbers work, we're going to pull the trigger. We know exactly what we're looking for. We've been around long enough to know that when we see that type of a deal and we've got the right relationships in place with the brokerage shop to do it. We're gonna make it happen because what we've seen is we've had some of our best acquisitions in what some people would call a seller's market or on a hot market, an upmarket. And so I think being an opportunistic buyer and always being ready to strike if the right numbers present themselves is where you need to be positioned. James: Got it. Got it. Before we end, I've asked you this question, which is completely different from what other questions I asked and normally it's not in my mind. But you are from California, investing in Dallas so you know a lot about these two markets. So do you think when recession hits...I mean, that's already a lot of people moving to Texas and Florida and maybe Phoenix. Do you think when the recession happened, there's going to be a lot more people moving... JC: Moving to Texas? James: Yes. I mean all this Texas and Florida and other markets. JC: Well, I don't know the answer to that question per se. But what I can tell you is this; it's becoming increasingly difficult to be a very smart college graduate in Silicon Valley and be able to see yourself making a life out here. And so even now with the job market being pretty decent, people are still leaving. And they're leaving because they just can't see themselves being willing to spend so much money to buy a house here, on top of the student loans that they've got and on top of the cost of living that they've got with high rents and whatnot, how do you save to buy a home here? And so, I don't think that that's going to change and I don't think that it matters whether we have a blip on the radar with the recession. The fundamentals are such that it's creating a very big incentive for people to move out, to go to other states where they can look to buy a home with a little bit more ease, can actually afford to pay rent with a little bit more ease. And so it's naturally speaking, we, as a company, believe that there's going to be continual growth. And in markets like Dallas Fortworth right now where rents are still, even as they'd gone up are still below the median affordability across the nation. Obviously, Silicon Valley is on the opposite end of that spectrum with San Francisco and San Jose, you got some of the highest rents in the nation. It's very unaffordable for how much people make here. So I personally think that the migration away from the coastal communities is going to continue. I don't see that trend stopping anytime soon. James: Yeah. No, I'm not saying it's going to stop. I think it's going to double or triple because when the recession happens, I mean, people are gonna lose jobs. And where your house mortgage is fixed, the house mortgage not gonna reduce. But if you are losing your job, people are gonna take that equity and at least move to cheapo States, like where they can pay less in mortgage and buy better houses and lead a better life, I guess, in terms of house expenses. Because I read some article that on average in the US, somebody's paying like, 60% of their pay going to mortgage. I think it's much higher in the Silicon Valley and Bay area. So what's the point of living and paying 80% to the house? There's a lot of other things you want to enjoy. JC: I agree. I agree. I mean, that's exactly why we're moving our investments out there to places like Texas for sure. I completely agree with that. James: Got it. Got it. Alright. JC, tell our audience how to get hold of you and if you want to give your contact information. JC: Yeah. If anybody out there wants to check us out, they can go to our website, multifamilypropertygroup.com. But more importantly, I actually host a video podcast with one of my buddies, Paul Peoples. It's a weekly show, it's called the Apartment Investors Show. So if you wanna actually see us in action, talking about how to make smart investments in multifamily, you can go to YouTube and search for the Apartment Investors Show. And we've got a whole host of great curated videos where we bring in experts in many different facets of multifamily investing. And you might learn a thing or two if you go to that, to our show. James: I'm sure that everybody's going to learn a lot of things because I've seen some of the videos. It was really good. JC: Thank you. James: Awesome, JC. That's it. Thanks for coming on the show. And happy that you add a lot of value to our audience and listeners. JC: Yeah, thanks a lot for hosting. I really appreciate it. I had a good time. James: Thank you. Bye. JC: All right, bye-bye.

Zach sits down with two-time Paralympian James Roberts to continue and expand upon our discussion centered around being disabled while other. He talks about the role that sports and physical activity played in helping him become more of himself and transition to navigating the professional world. He also emphasizes the importance of being authentic to yourself and so much more. Connect with James on LinkedIn, Twitter, Instagram and Facebook, and visit his website!James has a podcast - click here to check it out! You can also subscribe to his YouTube!Stop by Living-Corporate.com!TRANSCRIPTZach: What's up, y'all? It's Zach with Living Corporate, and oh my goodness. So first of all let me shout out our listeners, okay? So shout out to my listeners in the States and my listeners--our listeners, right? 'Cause we actually have some international reach. You know, we got folks in Nigeria, stand up. We got some folks in the UK. Stand up. We have folks just all over that actually listen to Living Corporate, so I'm really excited about that, and I bring this up now, I bring up our reach, I bring up our international listeners, because of our guest today. Today we have with us James Roberts. So James Roberts is a public speaker, a motivator, a consultant, but many of the folks who know him know him by his athletic feats as he is a Paralympian who participated as recently in the 2012 Olympics. So we have him with us today, and we're really excited that he's on the show. What's up, James? How are you doing?James: I'm very well, Zach. How are you?Zach: Man, I'm doing really well. So first of all, again, excited we're able to finally link up. We've been trying to do this for, like, a year, you know what I'm saying? We finally got it done. Objective completed.James: Well, I think some things are worth waiting for.Zach: Come on, now. [both laugh] No, I 100% agree with you, and, you know, I'm really excited to have on the show. You know, we don't--we talk about non-white experiences on Living Corporate, right? And we talk about that from whatever it may be. So if you're non-white and first-generation, if you're non-white and LGBTQ, if you're non-white and non-binary. Like, we talk about all types of non-majority experiences, and we've only really to date had one really talk about being non-white and disabled, and so I'm really just thankful that we were able to make the time for you to be on the show today. So for those of us who don't know you, right, can you tell us a little bit about yourself?James: Well, I'll start right at the beginning, Zach. My upbringing is even probably slightly different to even where I live now, being in the UK, because both of my parents were in the Armed Forces. My father was in the U.S. Air Force and my mother worked for NATO, which is the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. So I have a slightly different upbringing to probably, well, people the same age as me growing up in the UK. I probably have a better understanding--obviously I had diversity impact my young childhood. I probably have a better, I would put it, understanding, a better tolerance of other people, because having grown up with a multitude of nationalities--I wouldn't even want to try and count how many that was--and I think that had a bearing on be it my young childhood from obviously--well, with the disability, but I think when you're as close to the fire--and I'll use that analogy as it being your life, you're living it day in day out--you never see things as black and white. You probably see it like a multitude of grays. Well, it's not adverse for me, and this probably comes back to be it how my parents and probably to a certain extent my family orientation, it's very much old school. It's "You're gonna sink or swim," and it's going back to probably the business sense of it. That's probably a good one because it puts you in a good place and doesn't--you don't really see things as a predicament because it's like, "Well, I've got two options. I can either learn or adapt, or I sink and I quote-unquote drown." So I think it's a good analogy to use moving forward.Zach: No, absolutely. So let's talk a little bit about your disability if you don't mind. Can you talk about your disability and what it is specifically?James: Absolutely. I come at it from two perspectives now because I like to keep it simple for people to be able to visualize, and obviously people can relate to what is an impairment of an imputation because it's become more and more commonplace in the media, in newspapers, social media, et cetera, where as mine's a little bit more complex than that. And honestly I've got to think off the top of my head in terms of what bones I'm missing. Mine is obviously more complicated than that, but off the top of my head--let's see if I can get it right now. I'm missing my femur, [which is] the top portion of the leg, and I have a small tibia and fibula, which would be--well, normally in your ankle, and that is attached to my hip. So mine's is kind of like--how would I describe it? Probably, like, a leg in reverse. I've got half of it, but it would be the half that you wouldn't expect.Zach: And that's what prompted the amputation, correct?James: No, no. It's more of a--you could say it's a birth defect, but we don't actually know what's the root cause of it, but I coin it as an amputation because it's, be it from the periphery when I have an artificial leg on or a fake leg, however you want to put it, people can relate to that because it's similar to what an amputee would have. So without having to--well, I would say it's a lazy way of describing it, but most people can relate to it. "Well, I know what an amputation visually looks like. I know what looks like in the flesh," and you don't really have to think, where as if I go into explaining my disability, okay, for the people outside of the medical field or should I say within the medical field, they would understand every technical term that's coming out of my mouth, so I probably play it to the layman's terms to be a little bit easier for the general populace.Zach: So can we talk a little bit about--so it's interesting. I've had discussions with people who sometimes they'll frame physical disabilities or just disabilities of any kind as something to conquer and get over as opposed to a part of who you are, right? Can you talk a little bit on how you think about your disability as it comes to you working, as it comes to you just navigating life? Like, do you see it as something to conquer, or do you see it as just part of who you are, as James?James: I think that's a very good question, Zach, because I could come at it from two perspectives now. And you're probably surprised there. I can come from either side of the argument. I think when I have put out content, it's been misconstrued at times how I've put it, be it--what did I put more recently? You could say the disability was adverse. I had a chip on my shoulder and an ax to grind, and I play around with that at times, and I see the funny side of it. But when I use that, and I'll probably go back to a story more specifically. It would probably be when I was a teenager. That I was very--probably trying to, to a certain extent, find myself. I wasn't probably on reflection of--and I think about it at this point in my life, I wasn't content with me as being James. I saw the disability as a hindrance, problemsome... just a pain in the ass, really, because I wanted to be nothing but an able-bodied individual. I wanted nothing but not having this disability, but I think where I kind of had a light-bulb moment, and this kind of continues on from the story, is I was very--how would I put this?--not comfortable with probably my identity. I would want to hide it away. I would wear jeans, trousers, at any moment I could, even when it was hot and I was sweating, and I wouldn't be comfortable outside of a sporting arena, where as on the flip side of that--and it still perplexes me to this day--I would be content to be shown ever-present in a sporting field, but I think that comes down to--it probably helps being a coach because I can identify--it's probably I was content and confident in that arena, but I was still trying to find myself on every aspect of society, be it school, and the outside perspective of what--sport in a sense is a bubble, but I think as I've got older and started probably not to care what people thought of me because at the end of the day you're gonna get people that loathe you and like you just as much, but the people that's gonna like you is for you to be as authentic and genuine that you can be. So once I kind of probably put myself in that position to be vulnerable and only to a certain extent story-tell, I've started to kind of give people the true identity of who I am. I'm not trying to mask the facts of who I am. I'm not trying to be a different person for a different environment, be it I'm a certain way for my friends and family, I'm a different person for obviously teammates, and I'm a different person in my business. I try to encapsulate being, well, one person for all three. It's difficult, but I think I'm getting there. So that question that you asked, Zach, am I comfortable with being James? I think it's taken time to be able to be at one and be at peace with who I am, and this probably comes back to a good question that was asked--not just me, but a different array of people within an amputee group--it kind of asked, "Well, what are you most proudest [of], or what are you most positive about what's happened to you having acquired the amputation or being born with one?" And I put, "Well, mine is slightly different, but if it hadn't been for the disability," well, obviously as we're talking now, this would probably not have happened. My sporting career, for all sakes and purposes, probably wouldn't have happened if I'm honest. Okay, it was an aspiration when I was a young kid to want to be an athlete, but once I got to be a teenager it's like you wanting to either do soccer or play basketball is very unrealistic with having a disability. What path can you take to do--to kind of go down another route and probably progress that way? So from a sense of a Paralympic sport, disability sport, it kind of fell in my lap from that perspective. So to be able to live to no uncertain terms a lifelong dream that I had when I was younger was probably a godsend, I would put it as.Zach: No, I hear you. So can we talk a little bit more about that and talk about the role that, like, sports and physical activity played to help you become more of yourself and how that then transitioned to help you navigate the professional world?James: Absolutely. Coming down to it, I think there is a--very much from what I've learned from sport, and I could probably take away from it [as] my younger self as well is that--and what's transpired into business is--obviously that's what I alluded to with the adversity--is looking at things from a different perspective. Using one--well, a quote that's not really a quote, but somebody was saying to me not too long ago from the RNLI in the UK, [which] I'll say is the Coast Guard, they kind of asked me, "What do you do to survive in terms of if you've got yourself in a spot of bother or in deep, deep water? Cold water?" And I'd seen the advertisement for it, so I knew exactly what they were talking about. So you look to obviously stop and try and relax, where as I think you probably could take a precedent from that--and going back to what I was talking about of me being a young child and my family throwing me into the deep end, obviously that's me, metaphorically speaking, doing exactly that. It's relaxing. It's taking everything on board and not succumbing to problems, difficulties, and to a certain extent becoming overwhelmed and kind of floundering. You start to panic kind of mentally because "I've never been put in this situation. What do I do? Do I kind of push against the current?" And obviously if you start doing that you're gonna be in--you're gonna be in a spot of bother. You're gonna start panicking even more. You need to just relax and wait for things to come. Okay, from a business perspective, patience isn't always a virtue. It's very difficult, because I think we've got into a mentality in the present world now where "I'm not willing to wait for the result. I want it right now," because we're in a society that is fast-moving. "If I don't get it now, I'm gonna be behind my friend down the street, my good friends," and you feel that you're on the back foot from the off, where as I think if you have that mentality of be consistent and look at it from that perspective, as you're in it for the long run as opposed to the sprint and you start to leverage things that way, slowly but surely I think you're gonna be in a better position to be I would call it--not success, because I was talking to Shawn Harper the other day, and he was kind of telling me, "Well, do you want to be successful or do you want to win?" And I think this is where sporting people can find a commonality with winning, because obviously it's black and white. You're either on one side of the coin or you're not. You either win or you lose, where as I think success is to a certain extent manipulated. It's very much what society is dictating is success. Well, what is reality television telling you what it looks like? Be it it's very gimmicky, it's very misrepresented, where as I think if you look at it from the previous, with winning, it's all about you have a common goal. And if I use, like, a business analogy to make the point more clear-cut. Business is talked about as teamwork. Well, that's complete garbage, because why would you want to help somebody succeed in a company where your objective isn't the same? Where as I think you look at it as a more sports-oriented goal [and] everybody's pushing in the same direction. There you go. Now you have actual teamwork because everybody is striving to go in the same direction, be it if we use American football, everybody's on the same page. They're all in it for be it the Super Bowl, the National Championship, where as if you kind of single out individuals in an actual organization, "and I want you to do this, this, this," it's gonna become very cutthroat. It's like, "Well, I don't have the organization's best intentions at heart. I want to do it for me." You get very fixated on yourself as opposed to the success of the organization.Zach: So can we talk a little bit about challenges in being disabled while also being black? Like, you know, have you seen any challenges that you've had to face that are unique to your identity compared to your white counterparts?James: I have to really, really think hard about this one. Not really, but then that's probably glossing over the fact that there is gonna be discrimination, prejudice anyway. I don't have the problem of be it other black individuals within even the UK, be it if they're from African descent, they're gonna be stigmatized from the very get-go by just submitting a CV to an organization because their name per se doesn't fit. I have very much--if you don't see my color of my skin, just seeing some ink on a paper, you would assume that I'm possibly white. So that notion of stigmatization, prejudice, discrimination due to race, I don't think it's possibly being put at my feet. The disability on the other hand? Possibly, but then that's me being speculative and reading between the lines with be it not getting--well, being passed over for job interviews and whatnot, and that's the reason why I went into self-employment. It's like, "Well, if I"m not gonna be able to join the rat race and have a 9-5 job, why don't I go and work for myself?" And it is a brutal reality as that's probably down to the fact that I'm disabled, but a lot of the jobs have been very much sport-related. I'm very much around development of sport. Well, who better than somebody who's been there and done it to be put in that role? So I think it's--without speaking to those individuals it's quite difficult. You can learn how to operate a spreadsheet, you know, making numbers tick over to conform to whatever you want to show to hierarchy that obviously a program is working. We can learn that. I'm young enough to be able to put those steps into practice. But the other thing you can't learn. It's very much, well, God-given. It's something I had to work at and put countless hours in to be successful. So to be passed over for that basis, it's very frustrating because you're thinking, "Well, that's knowledge that I think--" This is probably to a certain extent where I make my point very poignant--I think, coming back to Shawn Harper again, it's where I think the Western world views--well, I'll use the analogy of old people or the elderly and the older population as once they hit retirement age they're kind of worthless, where as from an argument's sake you could probably put that to minorities, people with disabilities, because they fall on the outliers of what is the majority. "Well, you're not productive enough. You're not worthy." It's kind of to a certain extent worthless to the general populace, where as what he said with the people in being the Far East and the Eastern philosophy, they look at it as reproduction. It's their way of giving knowledge back and kind of being, you know, those people who have got wisdom, where as I'm thinking, coming back to my point with me talking about being passed over for jobs because of disability, that's missing a trick I think from that basis of that's me being able to give the athletes that are willing to be able to put in the work and want to get to the next level, be it from a sporting perspective, where they can learn from be it mistakes I've done. "Well, this is what I did. This is what you shouldn't do. You don't need to have those pitfalls and actually have that adversity. You can learn from my mistakes and get that wisdom and kind of piggyback on my attributes and my accomplishments and be able to be a better athlete, where as I think--where I'm gonna come from with that [is] I think maybe organizations gloss over the fact of that.Zach: No, absolutely. So look, this has been a great conversation, and I appreciate you taking the time to, like, hang out with us today. If you had any advice for those who are disabled, what advice would that be?James: I would say be authentic to yourself, because I think be it--in the United States it'd probably be even more problematic--you don't conform to any I'm gonna say quote-unquote box. You're kind of--you're being told you must conform and be to one box, but I think you need to be authentic to yourself, and once you're comfortable with that, I think you're obviously in a better place to be able to respect yourself. And it comes back to--and I think anybody can take heedings from this as well... you can't please everybody. The only person really you need to be pleasing is yourself.Zach: Man, I 100% agree with you. Thank y'all so much. This has been Zach on the Living Corporate podcast. You've been listening to James Roberts, Paralympian, public speaker, coach, and listen, appreciate y'all. Please continue to listen to Living Corporate. We're on every streaming platform. Follow us at Living Corporate @LivingCorp_Pod, Instagram @LivingCorporate. You can just email us at livingcorporatepodcast@gmail.com. If you have any questions you'd like to reach out to the show, hit us up right there or check out the website at living-corporate.com, please say the dash. Again, this has been Zach. Peace.

James:  Hey audience, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. This is James Kandasamy. Achieve Wealth focuses on commercial real estate and especially focusing a lot on Value Add Real Estate. And today we have Kimberly Radaker Bays from Dallas, Texas. Kimberly has done almost 430 million of assets specifically multifamily.   And this is just under her own asset management. And you know the 430 million represents almost 7200 units. Currently, they still own like 5000 of those units. And they focus a lot on deep Value Add which is an asset, not say an asset class, it's a type of Value Add that you know, gives you the highest return, right.   So they have done almost 10 deals up to now. One important thing that I want to mention before we bring Kimberly live is that Kimberly owns; construction management, property management, asset management and she also owns materials management, which is an important aspect of Value Add in vertical integration as well.   So hey Kim, welcome to the show.   Kimberly:  Hi, thanks so much for having me.   James:  Good, good. So I mean, you own a lot of units. You have been very successful in your Value Add Real Estate acquisition and you're playing in one of the hottest market, Dallas. So, can you briefly walk our audience and listeners through on how was your journey since the day you started? What year did you start? And can you just walk through your whole experience?   Kimberly:  Well, I started in 2007, with some single-family houses and kind of did that when my kids were really little. And then as they got a little bit older, it was harder to take them into Value Add, fix and flips and rental houses and that sort of thing when they were getting into stuff. And so, took a little bit of time away from single families and then got into multifamily in 2011.   So bought the first property, was a 77 unit property in Irving, Texas. And went full cycle with that one in only 15 months and then did 1031 into 244 unit property. While we still own that one, we brought 444 unit property in Arlington. And then kind of as we sold, it just kept growing. So purchased three properties in 2015, which have now all been sold.   And we bought three in 2016, three in 2017 and seven in 2018. And then one so far this year. So all of those, we still own; the 2016 and on, we still own at this point. So that's 4874 units across 14 properties scattered all across the Metroplex, Easter Garland and West to West Fort Worth so.   James:  Awesome. Awesome. And you do a lot on deep Value Add, right? So can you explain why did you choose deep Value Add?   Kimberly:  I guess we weren't scared of it. And we had sort of a knack for it from doing some of the single-family stuff that we had done previously. So we got started with that. And so because we do self-managed because we have our renovation teams in-house because we have the materials import it's a lot easier for us to undertake some of those projects.   I mean, there's some of those projects that I definitely would never hand over to third party management. It would just be a real mess if you did, probably so it really takes an awful lot of hands-on stuff. And even then there's plenty of speed bumps that roll along with deep Value Add.   We have a property that we purchased almost two years ago, that had 200 hard down units that hadn't been occupied in at least 13 years that we know of. My guess is closer to 16 or 17 years. So that's been an ongoing project. And it's definitely hit various little bumps along the way with city inspectors and various things.   And, you know, pipes that hadn't been used in forever, most of the copper was gone, all those sorts of things. But we finally have all, almost all the way back online so.   James:  So when you analyze deep Value Add, right, I mean, I'm sure you look for the value like you bought deals where there was a lot of units down and I think there's a lot of mismanagement and I  mean, is that kind of deal easy to find nowadays?   Kimberly:  No, it's not. The ones that are that deep Value Add are very, very few and far between at this point. But there is a ton of Value Add still available, just kind of depends on what you're looking for. So there's a lot of properties that have had some work done to them. But maybe more of the exterior has been done in the units, haven't seen as much on the interior.   And there's also a lot of room for Value Add on the management side. There's a lot of owners particularly that have owned for a long time in the market that haven't kept up with the rental increases that DFW has seen over the past five years. And so oftentimes, even a property that's in pretty decent shape, you can go in and definitely do some renovations and add some value there. But a lot of value can also be generated just by getting all the units up to the market.   James:  Yeah, I know it's harder to find the deep Value Add nowadays. And for example, the last deal that you did, you bought one deal this year, right? Can you describe how many units is that? And can you describe the characteristics of that deal?   Kimberly:  Sure, absolutely. So that property is 650 units in Dallas. And that one actually is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about as far as just making a difference in management. Some of the units have been renovated, not quite to the way that we would renovate them. So there's some stuff that we're adding to that.   But they're at least kind of some partial renovations done there. But they have third party management on that site and occupancy had really dropped. And they replaced the third party management company and the new management company to get it filled back up, but not really at market rents. And so the rents were quite a bit below.   So just kind of walking in the door, we were able to lease many of the units for $100 or $140 more the day after we took over than what the prior management was leasing for right before then. So there's a lot of Value Add that we're achieving just by taking a step up closer to market.   James:  So Dallas is a very hot market, I'm sure. I don't know, I'm not sure about this or is there a lot of people looking for that kind of deals and how did you get that deals? Why did the broker bring it to you or you have to go through the entire bidding war process?   Kimberly:  On that one, there was sort of bidding but it was, one of the things I think that really helped on that one it's the broker that we've had transact with many times before, but also sort of a neat story. The seller and I ended up on a panel together at a local conference in the offer process. And so I think it was right when we were at best and final.   And I was like, hey, this is the property that you own right? And he's like, oh, yeah and so anyway, we became kind of friends through the whole transaction. And even a little bit before that. So I think definitely, that relationship with the seller helped as well. So there's a lot of sellers that we've purchased from that helps us find deals.   It is a very, very competitive market right now. I will tell you, we've looked at probably 120 deals since then and there's two or three that might work out depending on kind of where the pricing shakes out. So but that was, you know, it's really, really hard to find anything in this market at the moment. But there is something occasionally.   And there are some things that we're able to do that some other groups might not be able to because of the import because of the stuff that we have in-house because of those synergies and cost savings that we're able to achieve.   James:  Got it. So, I mean, you said you underwritten like almost 120 deals, right? So do you do a sniff test? And can you explain to us what a sniff test and all of that 120 deals?   Kimberly:  Sure. Well, I have somebody that helps with acquisitions and gets everything kind of loaded up for me, runs all the preliminary underwriting. So that definitely helps a lot because being able to do that all by myself would be very challenging. We also had an intern this summer that helps with some of the properties that we get less than ideal data for as far as bad formats.   And when you get, you know, a PDF rent roll that doesn't convert well and all those sorts of things. So, but definitely, we have sort of a preliminary underwriting that we do and the spreadsheet that we've built in terms of what we feed in and what we can get out of that. And then obviously, much more detailed if it passes the initial sniff test.   But there's a lot that we do look at, just in terms of what percentage is renovated, the general area, what we think we can do with the property. Fortunately, because we own in so many different areas of the Dallas, Fort Worth metroplex, it makes it pretty quick and easy to underwrite a lot of the properties because we can look at them very quickly.   And we own a lot of properties, that would be a comp or we have owned something that was a comp or we've already evaluated something that was a comp. And so oftentimes we're able to look at the rents and kind of know whether or not something's going to work pretty quickly.   James:  Got it, very interesting. And I mean, because you know, deals are hard to find, right? And you have to have that big funnel of deals and that's a great tip to use some interns to do some underwriting. Because underwriting does take a lot of time, especially when you have you know, rent roll in PDF that doesn't convert and look at a lot of things inside the rent roll. and how's your company structure right now? I mean, I think you are like the CEO and how many people working for you? Asset Management, underwriters analysis? Can you describe --   Kimberly:  Maybe 160 people under the total umbrella. So we own the management company. So that includes both management and maintenance personnel that are out on the sites, regional managers, our accounting department, the material sales division, the guys that work in the warehouse, all the guys want our renovation crew. And then as well as you know, people that handle a lot of the investor relations, the acquisition and underwriting all those pieces.   James: Did you say 60 or did you say 160?   Kimberly:  176.   James:  176, okay, I was writing 60. So yeah, that's a big crew. And so you have the whole construction management, property management and materials as well, right. So can you describe how is the materials companies being set up on top of the property management, construction management, or maybe the whole, how the whole chain of vertical integration works? And how does it benefit in terms of giving you a value proposition for you to win deals or do very well in certain deals?   Kimberly:  Sure. So in this multifamily is sort of our, the materials' import arm, also we have a graphics division. So we have started doing signage, both internally and for other groups as well. So materials and graphics both do internal business for our projects. And then also, a good amount of sales is from other investors in the area. So we have, we do sell the parts.   But as far as to our properties, one of the big advantages were able to have it both on the graphic signage, branding and then also on the materials' import. We pass all of that through it just basically loaded costs. So I mean there's some cost allocation just in terms of the staff at the warehouse, in the storage facilities and those sorts of things. But it's all basically at cost.   And so that's a huge saving to our investors, that translates into additional return for them. We also, the construction arm is really a big partner to the property management arm. What we do for the construction is really the internal stuff. There are tons and tons of great general contractors as far as the exterior. It's very easy to get different people to compete on projects.   And there are quite a few really good players in town. But the interior renovations are really something that a lot of construction groups struggle with. And so that's the biggest reason that we brought it in-house. A couple of times we've tried using third-party vendors and every time we have, we've always sort of regretted it and brought everything back in not too long afterwards.   So we really have enjoyed having that piece. The big thing that enables us to do is we're actually, our renovation crews are actually, the person that's managing though this is kind of plugged in through our property management stuff so we know exactly what the status is. We know when a new unit is coming up. We know how to prepare for it and schedule it, to get everything ready to go on that front.   James:  Got it, got it. I mean, do you have any partners of managing this 176 people company?   Kimberly:  My husband now kind of runs the exist side of the business with the materials and construction and graphics. He kind of took that over. He was healthcare executive for a long time and then came in, join the team a few years ago. But otherwise, I don't have any actual direct partners, just an outstanding team of people around me so.   James:  Wow, that's very impressive. You're managing 176 people.   Kimberly:  It's really long term place, that are very close friends and everybody really does an awesome job. I've got a really strong team around me, certainly couldn't do this without them. But as far as actual partners, don't have partners at this point.   James:  Absolutely. That's really impressive.   Kimberly:  Had some partners earlier on but they --   James:  Yeah, I don't think, ever interviewed anybody, I mean, even though I interview a lot of operators relating to someone who has, you know, $430 million in assets under management, I think 5000 units are pretty common. But someone who has completely vertically integrated, including materials and have 176 people to manage,  that's a big accomplishment. And congrats to you.   Kimberly: As I said, I have an outstanding team around me.   James:  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The team.   Kimberly:  [inaudible 0:13:34] the whole leadership team is really incredible and each plays their own piece of things very well.   James:  Okay. And I want to give credit to your materials companies exponential materials group, right?   Kimberly:  Right. And so we actually rebranded recently as exist multifamily. So from the EX from exponential and then import services and technology, because we actually are developing some technology to help with the Value Add process. And then we have the import division, obviously.   James:  Okay. So let's talk about that.   Kimberly: Multifamily, what we rebranded as this spring.   James: What technology are y'all developing to help with the Value Add process?   Kimberly:  Well, so the pieces that we already have kind of completed and ready to go are all of the due diligence pieces. So both the lease audit and the unit walks, getting counts for all the units so that we know exactly what we need to have in our material kits to do the renovations. So that piece of it's done.   And then we're just continuing to work on integrating it into our property management software. So that a lot of the things that we have to do a little bit more manually now, in terms of processes to walk through, you know when units need to be walked, what the processes, what pieces they need and all of those sorts of things will be much more automated as we go through them. So we just keep automating more and more pieces as we can.   James:  Got it. So what you're saying is you are creating a due diligence software. So when you do your due diligence also on top of giving what needs to be changed, it also it gives you the materials needed to change and also packages into certain kits?   Kimberly:  Yes.   James:  Oh, that's awesome.   Kimberly:  Think about our material business through. Right now, it does due diligence, but it's really more going to be Value Add software when everything is kind of complete. It's really going to manage the whole Value Add process, really kind of cracking some of the key pieces of asset management along with the due diligence process, the materials, supplier acquisition,  tracking and kind of really being able to monitor staff and progress very easily, even when remote. So it's all a work in progress. And everything always takes a little longer than you think it will.   James:  Yeah, I mean, creating software and a structure does take a lot of time. But at least you have a really good vision to integrate the whole process because I know I do a lot of Value Add as well. And you just have to manage, how many units we have, what is the cause and you know, do the exact right thing for that particular unit or not, right, because after closing, you know, yeah, we are running like 100 miles an hour, right. And we don't have a team.   Kimberly:  Sure, absolutely. So, my husband, Matt is actually really, really good at kind of all of that process flow stuff. So he's been kind of really leading a lot of the stuff on the development side. But we do have the due diligence available. So it's really convenient for us because, the material side of the business, we actually offer kits to our customers.   So we will come out, walk through the various floor plans at your property, get it you know, accounts for this is how many vanity lights, this is how many cabinet poles, this is how many tiles you need if you're going to replace the backsplash, all of these things, make the whole parts list so that the manager is actually able to call and just say, hey, I need a kit for AHU and B1 this week.   And we will deliver a single box that has the ceiling fan, the tile and everything that you need for that unit, exactly down to the precise number that you need in that box. So that everything could just go into the unit, everything gets installed, all the trash goes back in the box, and you can throw it out again.   James:  Wow, that's awesome.   Kimberly: So it's a really cool feature that we have that is unusual from us to the materials suppliers.   James:  Got it and how much volume do you all do? Or how much revenue you all do in your materials business? Just to get the scale of how much it --   Kimberly: Think we are going to hit about 5 million this year if memory serves.   James: And that's for everything, right? When you guys use for yourself and you sell to others.   Kimberly: Right. We're probably about a 30% customer would be my best guess at the moment. The other 70% is all third party business.   James:  Wow, 70% is for other people and 30% is for yourself.   Kimberly: I mean, we're starting to do some of the marketing efforts on that now. And now that we own 100% of it. But everything that it's grown to that point has all just been kind of word of mouth. A few other friends of ours that were investors were like, hey, can we get some of this stuff, too? Yeah, sure, we can work through that. And so it's just kind of grown from there.   James: Got it. That's very interesting. And let's go into to Value Add, right. So let's say your budget got cut into half, right, let's say you're supposed to have a $1 million in rehab budget, now you only have 500,000 rehab budget, right. So what are the most important things that you would prioritize in a Value Add repositioning of multifamily?   Kimberly: So I think a really big piece of it is just hitting the Wow. So there's obviously different, you know, arguments about how far is too far and what you need to renovate in particular unit. But basically, the thing that I have found is, you just want to make sure that you have enough there to get the Wow.   So if you don't have enough, you don't want anybody to ever be looking at it and go, oh my gosh, it's this beautiful apartment. Oh, there's that brass doorknob over there. So I've seen some other renovations that other people have done. So I'll say don't forget the inexpensive details that make the Wow work, even if you are kind of cut on budget.   So there's definitely some bigger things that are more expensive. But some of it, a lot of the unit interiors make a huge difference. You know, as far as making sure that everything is fixed up nicely, I mean, you know, get I guess getting a rehab budget cut in half would never be a very fun thing.   James: Yeah, that's what I mean, it forces you to think right, what is the most valuable Wow you can get right. Let's say you can spend $1 and get that big Wow versus spending $10 and getting smaller Wow. So which one is the biggest wow versus the amount of the money --   Kimberly: I mean, if the painted exterior is really horrible, then that can make a really huge difference. If it's in pretty good shape and it's not in bad condition, then that's probably on the lower end of things. So it sort of just depends on that particular properties. There are certain properties where I would say the exterior has to be a huge piece of the Wow.   And you absolutely have to get that right. And then there are other times when it's like the exterior really isn't bad. So if you focused on your interiors for a while you could probably get your rents up and then generate enough income to be able to check most of the exterior.   James: Got it.   Kimberly: Apologized for the ringing in the background.   James: No worries, no worries. So what's there a deal, a deep Value Add deal that you have done? And you know, you had set an expectation in terms of proforma and what you can expect, but when after you close on it, you realize your proforma was completely out because of something, right? Can you describe that kind of deal? And what did you learn from it?   Kimberly: We haven't had any that we weren't able to work through the proforma. I mean, there's certainly been bumps in the road and everything. I suppose with [inaudible 0:20:51] one of the properties that we have right now as I said, we're coming up on two years. And finally, now all of the down units are going to be done before the two-year mark.   But we were really kind of hoping when we walked into it that it was going to be done in a year. And we hit various different problems along the way. One big thing was when we got the first building online, everything was fine. People were moving in, everything's been working great. But we got to the electrical inspections on the second building. And electrical inspector came in and said, well, you can't have electrical panels in the closets in new construction.   I said, well, it's not new construction, it was built in 1974. And they're like, nope, you can't have it in new construction. So we have, I mean so kind of had to pause on work for several months while we work through that issue because we didn't want to continue working on the rest of the buildings without knowing whether or not that was going to be an issue that we were going to have to move later on.   So there was definitely some delays regarding stuff like that with the cities. The cities are always a little bit challenging to work with. So those can cause some timing delays, which can impact proforma a bit. But we've been very fortunate, we've always been able to really hit the rents that we were projecting. Oftentimes, you know, there can also be issues on any project with property taxes, property taxes are really a big thing.   And so one of the, we've shifted some of our underwriting for stuff that we're looking at now. Dallas County and Tarrant County are completely different in terms of how they respond and what you have to do on underwriting and new properties at the moment. So Tarrant County, we have numerous lawsuits pending that are about to be filed, I guess, based on property taxes. But all of those basically got assess, 97% to 98% purchase price.   James:  Wow, both in Tarrant and Dallas County?   Kimberly:  Just in, Tarrant County,   James:  Oh, in  Tarrant, okay.   Kimberly:  Dallas County was much, much more forgiving. But then Dallas County also has some of its own issues as well. So you know, there's some really good rent growth going on in Tarrant right now. And we'll see how all the litigation turns out on the properties taxes, but that always takes a long time to play through. But that's definitely been a big piece of the underwriting at this point, in terms of how things are impacting the performance of the portfolio that we bought in the middle of last year.   We're actually very fortunate, I guess. It's partially in Dallas County, partially in Tarrant County. And so we were way over budget on property taxes on the Tarrant County side, but way under budget on the Dallas County side. And netted out to about $3,000 below budget across the whole portfolio, six properties.   James: Okay. Wow, that's interesting.   Kimberly:  It's amazing how close you can tie out to your performance in a way that's completely unexpected.   James: Yeah, I think deep Value Add,  I mean, it offers you a lot of parameters to be forgiven, right, in case you found something that is not as what you thought about because there's so much of upside that you can make mistakes and still come out really good.   Kimberly: Oh, absolutely. That's very, very true. And also, I mean, just anytime you have a good rehab, I mean, any deep Value Add, you're going to have a really large rehab budget. So even though things can go wrong, it's still a small percentage, just exactly to your point. You know, if you have a million-dollar renovation budget and you encounter a $200,000 expense you weren't expecting, it's not any big deal. If it was a million-dollar renovation budget, that's a pretty huge deal.   James: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I realized that, whenever I do deep Value Add, you know, there's just, you find things that you didn't expect in the beginning before you close. But you know, you always have some things to work around because you have so much cash to play around, right, in terms of Value Add?   Kimberly: Well, we try to be really conservative too in terms of what we budget, make sure that we have some contingencies. I always try to make sure that we have a decent bit of cash on hand like that's really one of my big focuses, is trying to make sure that we always have enough cash in the bank. That when things don't go quite as planned, it's not the end of the world for anybody, you know.   A huge priority for me is to make sure that we never have a cash call, we never have and I don't ever plan to if there's any way I can avoid it. So that's one of the big things that I really focused on is making sure that I maintain enough cash. We have enough cash at closing, to be able to do what we need to do, cover some bumps in the road, cover a few delays.   Make sure we've got some contingencies just in case, you know, as you're going through your Value Add process occupancy slips a little bit more than you plan, all those things I try to really plan for and try to hang on to the majority of any cash flow. And so we've got everything really sort of wrapped up at least the big line items taken care of and completed.   And then at that point, we know what kind of cash we have to work with them. And we can start paying it out but without ever having to worry about missing a distribution or cutting a distribution or anything else. So that's always just a constant kind of steady or steadily increasing process after that.   James: Got it. So what are the tools that you use for asset management? I mean, you have like 5000 units right now. And can you tell us some of, you know, tips and tricks in asset management that you're using nowadays to manage all these 5000 units?   Kimberly: Well, I guess we've got a lot. I mean, I've been very, very fortunate over the past year because I used to do a lot of the oversight on the accounting side very personally, I still do review the financials every month. But I've been very fortunate to really build out the accounting team.   Got some great people on the accounting team now, to where getting to the point where the last couple of months, by the time that the financials have actually gotten to me to review, I really have basically no questions. And so that's definitely sped things up a lot. I think we're getting some really good interaction between the property managers and the accountants.   So that they are asking the right questions, we're getting the right information back. If something isn't working well, it's getting put in front of the Director of the Operation or the Regional Manager so that we can address stuff and change policy. So that's a big piece of it, is really kind of the interaction between the asset management, the accounting, the property management, getting all the teams to kind of work together.   We obviously have, you know, an inordinate number of spreadsheets and different tools and reports that we look through as far as the out of our property management software to determine kind of how the assets performing. Got monthly reports that kind of track where we're going on the projects, where things are heading, where we're over budget, where we're under budget, how we want to prepare for all of those things.   James: Got it. That's very interesting. And before I forget, so are you, I mean, I know a lot of deep Value Add does need a lot of short term loans. And are you still doing short term loans nowadays?   Kimberly: We do bridge loans.  I am not a huge fan of huge prepayment penalties. So I really have sort of shied away from doing most of the, if any long term loans. We did one, we were actually able to sell and kind of the buyer covered a lot of the cost of getting out of that loan. But that was multimillion-dollar prepayment penalties that would have been owed.   So that can definitely have a big impact on returns in the future. So especially because a lot of our investors are really looking to increase their net worth so we do shorter-term hold periods. It never made sense to me to get tied into a 10-year loan if the plan is really to hold three to five years. So we've been very, very fortunate recently.   We've been able to work with a lot of really good bridge lenders. We have a bank that has done several loans with us, some that have already been paid off and some that we still currently own. And then also a life insurance company that also does some bridge loans. So we try to really look for things that give us a decent bit of exit flexibility.   So that have prepayment penalties that burn off within two to three years at the longest. But then hopefully that have some extensions available or that have longer terms than that, to give us some flexibility so that we don't get caught in terms of having to refinance in a really tight window.   James: So aren't you worried about now, where we are at in the market cycle? And you know, bridge loan does costs certain expiry, right after a few years. Aren't you worried about that or do you think that risk is mitigated?   Kimberly: Not really because like I said, so the properties that we bought last summer, we actually have a five-year loan with a two-year extension available. That has basically no prepayment penalty, once you've paid about two and a half years of interest. So I can enter and we actually are able to pull various properties out sooner as long as we still hit that interest reserve.   So if we sold one today, we would have to hold the others maybe two years and 10 months or something instead of two years and six months to break even on that. But really we have pretty much free exit from two and a half years to seven years from purchase. So that gives a long time that you can still sell some things ahead of time, if you know things stay good for longer. And at the same time, if things go bad soon, you have time to hold through.   So been really looking for stuff, not real short term.  The real, real short term bridge loan two years, you know, with some extensions and that sort of thing, I think can be kind of risky at this point. But we've been able to get quite a bit of stuff that's, you know, sort of a five year fixed, but that's free and clear exit after three, sometimes with some extension flexibility in there.   So it's got a lot of, you've got long enough to ride through things. We've also been able to find some of those, fortunately, that are bridge loans that are fixed rate, which is very nice. So it is a little bit higher interest rate than a Fannie or Freddie. But having that extra flexibility really matters to me, because even with like a Fannie Mae loan, yes, you have time now to get through a downturn.   But none of us really know where the economy is going to be 10 years from now or 12 years from now, either. So on any of those, it's really just sort of oftentimes a three month free and clear exit at the end. So that's still a very narrowed point of time to transact or to refinance. Even if it is a long, long time from now, it's still a pretty narrow window to hit.   And so a lot of the loans we've been able to do, give us quite a wide window of, you know, a couple of years in which we can transact or refinance, whenever it makes sense with the market.   James: Got it. Very interesting answer. I really like having a five years fixed rate. And after that another two more years extension because I thought the bridge loans only three years plus two looks like the other options as well available on that.   Kimberly: There's a lot of different options. I mean, there's a lot of people that are just doing like a three plus one plus one or a, you know, three plus two kind of thing. But there are definitely others that will do different options. And that will get more creative and really do what it needs to do in order to meet your project.   And so we've been very fortunate to find some of those and develop good relationships with some of those lenders that think a little bit outside the box. And we've been able to structure some stuff that really does give us a nice window in which to exit it sooner or if it's later just depending. Because nobody quite knows, everybody thinks something's going to happen, but nobody knows when.   James: Got it. Very interesting. So can you name your secret sauce to success, like a couple of secret sauce, that you think, you know, this is my secret sauce to success?   Kimberly: Well, my team is a huge piece of my secret sauce to success. The fact that [inaudible 0:32:22] barely needs any sleep certainly helps. So I think a lot of it really is just how hands-on most of us are with the projects, with the process. Even as we've grown, obviously, each of us has smaller and smaller pieces across.   But we really do pay attention to those things, we pay attention to the details. I think it's been really important that we do genuinely care about our team members and our employees. I think that they get that and I think that gets us better people. And for the most part, it's allowed us to retain better people. Obviously, this is a very, very tough labor market.   So anytime there is a position that's open, it is a challenge to fill it. And it's a challenge to find the right person to fill it. But I think some of that really kind of genuinely caring about the team has made a difference for a lot of other people. Other secret sauce, I guess, I always kind of looked at the renewals a little bit differently than was standard in the property management industry.   I think things have shifted a little bit more towards my way of thinking about it now. But I remember when I first kind of joined the industry in 2011, everybody was very used to well, okay, are we going to do a 3% increase or we're going to do a 5% increase? Everything was the percentage increase over what the person was paying at the time.   And so one of the things that I always looked at was, now you really have to look at it in a more finite dollar amount. Because if you have somebody let's say that's already $20 over market, for whatever reason, maybe they took a short term lease the first time around and then you've got somebody else that's 150 below market, why would you give the bigger increase, if you do a percentage increase to the guy that's already paying over market, then you went to the person that's hundreds of dollars below market.   So really kind of structuring some unique formulas to try to balance things out. That's one of the things I've learned a lot about as times gone on. It was always kind of my original, foundational idea was that you should give a bigger increase to the person that's further below market. But then also really kind of gotten to fine-tune a lot of that through the years.   And it varies it through various seasons and through different properties and different areas of town. But really have found kind of a matrix of stuff that I do to try to find the right balance on renewals, so that we get as much more additional rent as we possibly can, without dropping occupancy too far.   James: So what is that metrics? Can you share it with the audience? How do you decide, let's say, --   Kimberly: It's a lot more complicated than that. I don't even know the [inaudible34:49]. As I said, I guess that's part of the secret sauce. I will give some of it, but it is just kind of, you know, really bouncing through and finding the right balance. Like I said it varies considerably property to property.   I have some properties where they can, you know, you can bump people straight up to the market even if it's $150 increase, it doesn't matter. They'll just pay it. And I've got others where you know, if there's if it's nearly that large, then you, you just kind of able to tweak it, going through it.   James: Yeah, we do a lot of that, too. I mean, when someone is below market, we usually go person by person and make sure you know, is there anything that you can do to upgrade and don't hurt them, right. I mean, you give them something and you do partial increase, rather than just completely bring them to market.   So that some of the things we do as well, find the right metrics, I guess, right. Is there a proud moment in real estate ventures that you think I'm really, really proud of this particular moment and I'm going to remember that for my life? Can you describe that moment?   Kimberly: I guess there's a lot of really big things. I guess, one of the biggest is just hearing some of the investor testimonials that we've done recently. This is the first time that we've ever had a five or six C offering open which allows us to do advertising to the greater populace. Everybody before was just a five or six B where somebody had to already be on our list prior to the time that the offering open.   And so we actually had some of the investors come in and do testimonials. And that was pretty cool to really, I've heard a lot of stories. But to have people that were actually willing to even go on video and tell their story and tell about the difference that it's made in terms of what they've been able to do with their family, people that have been able to retire, that didn't expect to be able to retire.   People that were able to stay home with kids or retire early or take trips that they never thought were possible. That's been a pretty huge thing to kind of just really hear the difference that it's made to people. I mean, that's sort of the biggest goal is to make a difference. And I guess one of the other really proud moments is just kind of some of the programs that we have at the sites as well.   We partner with a lot of level 1C3 that do different benefits. So we've got some that will help with during hard times to cover rent, we do Angel trees for some of the residents. We've got vendors that have work through us to try to help various residents along the way. We have an organization that actually teaches classes to improve job skills and financial management skills with some of our properties that are in a lower-income area.   And so I actually remember when he was calling, the nonprofit was calling to work with us and you could tell I guess, well, you know, he kind of gave us his pitch and whatever. And we're like, yeah, that sounds great, we'd be happy to help. And he just kind of didn't know what to do with it. It was kind of funny. He had --   James: Because everybody rejected them, right?   Kimberly: He had more objections ready but had no idea what to say when somebody just said, sure we can do that, we'd be happy to, we'd love to work with you. So that was pretty cool to relate. We work on trying to bring programs and really try to make a benefit to the residents as well make sure that we're taking care of the people that take care of us.   James: Yeah, it's amazing how many people treat, you know, real estate as just a money-making tool, right. But I mean, it's more of a life-changing tool, right. You can change a lot of people's lives by not only collecting rent but providing other services that they may not have access to which a landlord can do, right.   Kimberly: I mean, it's a huge way to really benefit the lives of others. I mean, yes, we make money for the investors. And we're very fortunate one of the cool things about our company is that we have had lots of smaller investors. There are lots of investors that have been with us since early on, that have doubled and tripled and quadrupled their net worth.   And so there's many of them that were not accredited when they started with us that now are and so that's one of kind of my own personal goals is to help 100 people become millionaires, that that's kind of what my personal goals. But then also just the difference that it makes to employees. We try to give everybody a great place to work.   And so, you know, when we first started with that first property, we had one manager and one maintenance guy, two employees, I think there were six contract guys that were helping with some rehab, but that was about it. And now we're over 176 employees. And all of those people have a good solid job to come to where they're treated like family and where they have benefits and everything else.   And we've given the employees opportunities to invest periodically throughout the projects. And so that made a big difference for them as well. And then just really making a difference for the residents. We try to give them a good place to live, yes, we do increase their rent. So sometimes we are the big bad wolf in that regard. But we try to at least give them a really nice place to live.   We try to take care of things, fix things when they're broken. It's amazing the properties that we've bought that have had tarps on the roofs and you ask the residents and they're like, oh, we didn't. But why didn't you tell us sooner? We didn't really think you were going to do anything about it. It's been like this for three years.   Like, why should anyone have to deal with a roof leak for three years, that's just ridiculous. And so it does make a difference to go in and clean up some of those properties that have been sort of ignored or just treated as an ATM.           James: Yeah, it's amazing on how much people owning apartments, but never really cared for the apartments. It's a complex asset class to manage, right? I mean, you have to manage the property, you have to manage rent increases, you have to manage tenants or to manage vendors, you have to manage banks, right?   There are so many things that you have to manage and it's just not easy to manage. And not many, very few property management company can do that. And whoever can do that, they need to be really good at it.   Kimberly: It is definitely a challenge. There's a lot of investors or people that have been interested in investing. They're like, oh, I want to do what you do. And I'm like, okay, well, make sure you think through it really carefully first. It's a great thing to do. It's a great business to be in, don't get me wrong. But this is not easy. This is not just I'll buy an apartment, you know and it'll print checks. And it'll be so simple.   You're going to to have staff that has to run them. And even if you have third party management, you still have to watch the third-party management company. And you have to figure out how you're going to step in when you have, you know if there's an issue with that. And there's a lot to keep up with and a lot to manage if you really want to do it well. It is a pretty forgiving asset class as you mentioned, especially on the Value Add side.   So you know, yes, if you're trying to hit 100% return and you know, you only hit a triple oh, shocks, we only made 80%.   James: Still awesome.   Kimberly: So far we've been able to hit our targets, but that is definitely much easier. I suppose than buying something that's really just cash flow, where all you have to do is upset one resident and your occupancy slip just enough that you're not making quite as much as you thought you would before.   James: Yeah, correct. All right, Kim, why don't you tell our audience how to find you and how to get hold of you?   Kimberly: Sure, you can reach out to us at exponentialpropertygroup.com is our website. There's lots of information on there, as well as some of those investor testimonials that I talked about. Some pictures of the properties that we own and have managed and also ways to contact all of us for any more information that we can provide.   James: Awesome, thanks for coming into the podcast. It was one of the huge Value Add podcasts. I mean, you gave a lot of Value Add advice, at the same time, you give a lot of tips about Value Add as well. So really appreciate it and thanks for coming in.   Kimberly: Yeah, thanks so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. I'm glad I finally got to meet you.   James: I'm really glad to meet you too. Thanks.  

James:  Hi listeners and audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, we have Brian Hamrick. Brian owns 370 units which 2/3 of it is syndicated, the remaining is owned by him. He's from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He does multifamily, self-storage and also non-performing notes and Brian is also the past president of Rental Properties Owner Association.  Hey, Brian, welcome to the show.  Brian: Hey, James, great to be here. Thanks for having me.  James: I'm really happy to have you here. I mean, you have been podcasting for the past three years. You have a really good audience because I remember after showing up on your podcast, a lot of people did contact me. So I'm sure a lot of people love your podcast as well.  Brian: That's fantastic. I'm glad to hear that.  James: Yes. So can we go a bit more detailed into what is this Rental Properties Owners Association, how do they add value to syndicators or landlords or tenants? Can you describe a bit more on that? Brian: Sure, the Rental Property Owners Association, which I'm a past president of, I'm currently on the executive committee and I sit on a number of different committees, they are a landlord representation organization.  So we also work a lot with Real Estate Investors and provide all kinds of training for both landlords and Real Estate Investors. Every year, we have an annual conference where we have National Speakers come in and talk about all different types of investing asset classes and whatnot. And really I got involved with it because when I moved here to Grand Rapids, 15 years ago, I was looking for a professional organization that I could become part of that would help me network with other professionals in the industry. People who own rental properties and knew how to profit from it and also just an organization that would help teach best practices so I could learn the ropes how to do it and certainly through the Rental Property Owners Association and the people I've met there, I've learned a lot.  We provide a lot of training but probably what I consider most important of all is we have a legislative committee that works with lawmakers, both local and at the state level, to help push through bills that help rental property owners and also help prevent bills from becoming a reality that would hurt us; anything that has to do with like rent control or some of those hot button issues that as landlords and rental property owners would like to avoid.  James: Yeah, very interesting. So like New York and I think, Oregon now is rent control states, if I'm not mistaken, so they probably have similar Association like yours in that city, I guess. Brian: I would hope so. It sounds like they're fighting a losing battle as you and I both know as rental property owners, you know, I believe you invest out of state, out of your area, is that correct?  James: No. No, I'm from Austin. I invest everything in Austin and San Antonio. Brian: Okay. So would you even consider investing in a city or a state that has rent control?  James: No. Of course not.  Brian: Yeah. It's really detrimental to the market and I think it's going to cause a lot of problems. I used to live in Santa Monica, California where they had rent control and you can see the negative results of that. James: Oh, Santa Monica in California, did they have rent control in the past?  Brian: Yeah, a lot of the Los Angeles counties, you know, it's kind of county by county, city by city, area by area, but there is rent control in Los Angeles in certain areas and you can just see how rental property owners, who own buildings in rent control areas, have no incentive to put money back into them. They're not putting the capital expenditures back into their property to keep them in good shape because there's no incentive to do so. They can't raise rents beyond a certain amount each year and you know, so why would you invest $100,000 back into your building if you're not going to get that out in value? James: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make sense for a business. So you may not run it as a business, you may be just run it as cash flow, I don't know, it's like a cash flow investment. I guess you don't have to spend any capital on it.  Brian: I can see how if you've owned the property for a long time and you bought it at the right price at the right time, you could probably be doing well with cash flow. But in these markets where you see a lot of rent control, they're expensive markets. So I'm not really sure once rent control is instituted in these markets what's going to incentivize new investors to come in and bring fresh money into the market. James: Interesting interesting. So coming back to your portfolio, can you tell me in terms of your holdings, how much is multifamily, how much is self-storage? How many percents of each one of these and how much is non-performing notes?  Brian: Sure. Sure. So multi-family is my bread and butter. I've been doing that since 2008. I moved to Grand Rapids in 2005 and 2008 the bubble burst, you know, we entered the Great Recession, it was a buyers' market. I bought my first 12 unit, I was using my own money in the beginning, started using other people's money and then started syndicating.  We currently have about 370 units here in the Grand Rapids area, Grand Rapids, Michigan and that's multi-family residential. In 2018 we purchased a self-storage facility, it's about 28,000 square foot, we're currently adding another 15,000 square foot to it and that's been a fantastic investment, I really love self-storage. And then, as you mentioned, I host a podcast - The Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast - and one of my guests over two years ago was a gentleman by the name of Gene Chandler and he was investing in non-performing notes and I really liked his strategy so much that I ended up investing well over 300,000 dollars with them and the results have just been fantastic.  James: So, you now do multifamily and now you're doing two other asset class. So can you tell me what does multifamily did not offer that these two other asset class offers? Brian: Well, I like you, I'm investing in my own backyard for when it comes to multifamily. Even though I've bought and sold over 450 units, in 2015, I stopped buying multifamily altogether because the values had gone to a point where I could no longer justify syndication. I couldn't get the returns that I needed for my investors to be able to to pay the prices that people were asking. The last two deals I found - one was off-market, one was kind of in between market - and I can go into details on that but anything that I saw after that point just, I was so spoiled by the prices I was getting between 2008-2014, that I started looking for other asset classes.  And there were probably about 3 years where I just sat on the fence, waiting to see if the market would change or something else would come along. And at some point, one of the people who I met through the podcast, brought me a self-storage deal that he had found off-market. I looked at it, I like the numbers. His underwriting was very conservative, but the numbers were very compelling and we ended up buying that in 2018. And just in one year of basically bringing the rents up to market value and switching to a virtual online web-based management system, we were able to add over $700,000 in value to that property. So I like the simplicity of managing and owning self-storage more so than multifamily because in multifamily, you have tenants and plumbing issues... James: So it's very Property Management intensive, right? Brian:  It definitely is and the self-storage, it's not. When you have turn-over, you're basically sweeping out a metal shed, you know, so it's a lot easier to manage and own and operate self-storage, especially when you're in a good market and I think we bought in an excellent market. It's just north of Lansing, Michigan. And then with the non-performing notes, I found a strategic partner who handled a lot of the nuts and bolts of that and I was able to invest with him somewhat passively so I enjoyed that aspect of investing there and the returns we were getting were very good.  James: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned in my book, commercial asset classes go in cycles. I mean, I know I'm a multi-family guy and your bread and butter is multifamily but if you find the right operators in other asset classes, you can make a lot more money or equal amount of money as what you're making with multi-family. So, would you think so? Brian: Absolutely. Finding the right strategic partners in other asset classes that's one of the things I set my mind to when I realize I'm just not seeing the returns I want to see in multifamily and apartments in my area where I'm comfortable investing. Now, have you looked at other asset classes? James: I did look at a few asset class. I mean the asset class that I looked at is also like, you know, self-storage or mobile home parks but it's also in demand. I'm surprised to see here that you found something in 2018 because I thought self-storage is a hot asset class as well, I will risk going after that. Brian: Yeah, it was a lucky strike and we've been looking for similar opportunities. But yeah, we're not finding them. What we're doing instead is building ground-up construction in self-storage, finding locations where the demographics are right and the need for more square footage of self-storage space is there and then we go in and fill that need. James: Yeah, but I'm happy that you are looking at multifamily is not like the only asset class throughout the whole real estate cycle. I mean you felt like in 2015, things picked up and you really can't find the prices that you want and you have changed strategy which is how an investor should be. You always want to look at what's available out there, the deal flow because the economy is still doing very well. There's a lot of capital out there and it's just harder to find a great really-making-sense deal. I wouldn't say deals, making sense deals in multi-family, something that makes sense. It's just so hard to find out nowadays. Brian: Absolutely. As an investor, you have to stay nimble and flexible and be open to other opportunities. Now, I know a lot of people in our field, our asset class of multifamily and apartments will find strategic partners outside of their area like in Texas or Georgia or wherever and partner with strategic partners who are able to find better value and better yields in their Investments. But I've had some bad experiences early on with some single-families that I owned out of state so I've always been very hesitant since then to own rental property, residential rental property, out of state. James: So you like to have any property within your own backyard, but you like to diversify within asset classes. Some people have one asset class, but they go across the nation. Like some people like to buy multi-family across the nation, wherever make sense but you are doing it the other way around. Brian: Yeah. Since I've branched out into self-storage and non-performing notes, I'm comfortable switching up asset classes. James: Awesome. So on self-storage, are you the operator, are you the primary guy?  Brian: No, my strategic partner is. He's the one who found the deal off-market, he negotiated it. I basically came in and raised the money; we syndicated that and raise the funds to be able to acquire it. James: Got it. Very interesting. And on the performing notes, you have a strategic partner, I would say, right? Brian: Yeah, I have a strategic partner on that. He's the one who knows that world. He's been doing it for well over six years now and really knows how to negotiate with the lender who we're purchasing a non-performing note from. He works with the homeowners to try to keep them in the home and figure out if that's even possible and then knows who the title company is that he should work with to get the right due diligence done and he's got the different scenarios in his head of how we can profit off of these notes. If we keep the homeowner in the home, what are the strategies there for us to maximize our profit or if we have to go through the foreclosure process. How do we go about that and maximize our returns in those cases as well. James: Interesting. Interesting. So if you get a multi-family deal today, would you still do it? Brian: If I found a deal that made sense and my underwriting shows that I could get the returns to my investors that they're accustomed to, I'd do it in a second, absolutely.  James: Okay. Okay. So let's talk about the market and submarket selection. So why did you move from California to Grand Rapids, Michigan?  Everybody's heading to Texas and Florida from California.  Brian: I'm from Michigan, originally. James: Oh, you're from Michigan? Okay, that makes a lot of sense.  Brian: Yeah, my wife is from here as well. So we met in California but decided okay, if we get married, start a family we didn't want to do it in Los Angeles, it's just too busy there.  James: Makes sense. Yeah, I mean just based on data that 50% of the population move to Texas And I think there's a lot more but Texas and Florida is the favorite destination for people from California. That's why I was asking the question. And how do you select the submarket in Grand Rapids, Michigan? Like how do you select which submarket to really do the deal? Brian:  Well eyes because I live here, I am looking within a half hour to an hour of where I live. Grand Rapids is very strong, has very strong demographics. It's one of the few Midwest cities that really bounce back strong from the Great Recession. A lot of diversified manufacturing industry. Furniture, Amway is here, we've got a lot of different industries and employment based here. So when I look at submarkets, I'm looking more at the neighborhoods, what's the crime rate in that neighborhood? What's the income level in that? What kind of rents can we command and by the way, I'll buy B properties and C properties or you know, C minus properties that we can push into that C plus B minus range. But I will avoid the The D areas and I've seen a lot of opportunities in the D areas. And by D, I mean where you have a lot higher crime rate, where you have a lot more evictions and tenant turnover and problems.  So I'm just very careful about and I work with the property management company that has a good grasp of these areas. So when we look at a property, we can really get a sense of if we buy this, is there an upside value, can we improve it and get higher rents, get better residents in here or is it going to be bound by the neighborhood it's in, that where it is now is what just where it's going to be? James:  Got it. Got it. Interesting. What about underwriting? I mean, when you look at a deal like I mean when you are buying multifamily, right? So how would you select the deal? Let's say a hundred deals been sent to you, do you know how many percents of it you would reject? Brian: Right now 100%. I'm not even looking right now, but what I'll do is I'll do a quick rule of thumb. Okay, what's the net operating income? What's the cap rate that they're asking? Is there upside potential? And of course, if it's listed by a broker, they'll always tell you the market the rents are way under market. you can raise the rent. No problem. That's sometimes true, sometimes not true.  But this area is so strong that any seller right now knows that they can get top dollar and while there's a lot of Institutions and out-of-state investors and even International investors who are willing to pay top dollar, the yields that they are willing to accept are much lower than what I'm willing to pay, which is why I'm not even looking at the moment.  James: Very interesting. Now I see it's happening across the country. I thought it was only happening in Texas and Florida but looks like across the country, that's what's happening. It's just so hard to find deals that used to make sense to us long time ago, right? So it's crazy out there.  Brian: Yeah, and it could just be that I'm spoiled because I was buying during a period when I could buy it at eight nine ten caps. And now, when I see things at five six, six and a half caps, I don't even want to consider them. But had I bought it at those cap rates between 2015 and 2017, I would have made a lot of money. So maybe I'm just a little too stringent in my criteria right now.  James: Yeah. That could be it as well.  Brian: Are you buying right now? James: Well, I mean, well, I'm still buying if I find the right deal. It's just so hard to find the deal that makes sense for my criteria, and I'm sure that's the same thing as your criteria. I'm still buying if I find the right deal but I'm not underwriting a hundred deals, you know, in one month. You know, whatever deal comes to me, I usually know that within the quick look, I know whether it makes sense for me to underwrite or not. And sometimes brokers will call me if they know that a certain deal is something that I would do. That's the only deal that I look at.  Brian: What's your quick back of the napkin way of determining whether or not you want to invest in something? James: If it's an email blast, I probably wouldn't look at it.  Brian: Yeah. Yeah, you kind of eliminate the ones that go out to everybody.  James: Yeah, it's already got everybody on his shop date and coming on an email blast. You know, you have to go on a best and final and best and best and final and then this ultimate best and final offer, which is you're shooting in the dark, right? You're basically bidding against yourself. [20:45 inaudible] I'm not really in a desperate mode to buy deals that go through that kind of process. So when I look for value-add if there's a true value-add deal, I mean, minus the crime rate area, I definitely know the area that has high crime rate, I can check it out quickly Class B and C, but need to have true value-add that we can go and add value. I don't really look at the entry cap rate, but I look for the spread of the cap rate from the time I buy to in the next two years kind of thing without any rent increases.  Brian: I think part of part of my problem, one of the reasons that I've just been on the fence is because we bought a value-add property back in 2015. It was an older building, built in 1920 and it was such an exhaustive process to go in and add value to that property. I was over there like every day. James: It is very tiring to do those value-add deals. To do deep value-adds, I would say.   Brian: Deep, deep value-add. And so my bandwidth for more opportunities was just completely limited because I was so exhausted by working on this one particular project. Now, luckily, we got it to a point where we added tremendous value to it and we're very proud of the work we did but you have to weigh the opportunity cost when you do those value-adds because sometimes they're so intensive that some of the lower hanging fruits, you bypassed that. James: Correct. Yeah. I see some syndicators doing deals every month and they're not doing a deep value-add or they're just doing the lighter value-add. Maybe they're just doing a yield play. [22:30inaudible] they can buy every month. They can claim 5,000 units or 3,000 years versus deep value-add to be like 100 and 200 and 300. It's a really really deep value-add. You probably make a lot more money than the guy who owns 3,000 to 4,000 units, but it's a lot of work.  Brian: It's more than just asset managing. You kind of become a de facto developer. James: Developer, a huge project manager. Yes, so many things but the deep value-add gives you a sense of accomplishment. Brian: It does.  I'm very proud of the work we did on this particular property and more so than any of my other properties because I didn't have to put nearly as much work into them.  James: Yeah, and the deep value-add it becomes a case study, right? Because it truly shows your skills to turn around property.  And people who have done deep value-add it's going to be easier for them to do the lighter [23:30inaudible]   Brian: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent point.  James: So that's very interesting. So can you name like 2 or 3 secret sauces to your success? Brian: The two or three secret sauces to my success. I'm sorry if you hear that printer going in the background there.  James: It's okay. No worries.  Brian: Hopefully that ends soon. Secret sauces to my success; I think doing the underwriting, running my numbers. I always like to say, I like to see my numbers in bullet time. To see all the Matrix, you know, everything slows down and you can see it coming at you. I want to know what are the real expense is going to be after we've acquired the property. One particular mistake that I see a lot of investors making is they assume that the property tax is going to be the same as what the previous owner was paying and that's just not the case. So right there that's one of the main factors that I look at right away, is what is the property tax going to become once I buy this property and that eliminates 50% of the deals that I would even consider. So number one secret sauce is just really understanding the numbers. Not just where they are today, but where they will be once we acquire the property. Number two is having the right team. I am all about partnering with strategic partners who add value because they understand inside and out the asset class that you're investing in. The reason I was able to expand my multifamily portfolio was that I partnered with someone who owned his own property management company and managed the type of properties that I wanted to acquire. That without his assistance and without his team that really knew how to go in and do the due diligence and help me assess upfront, what are the capital expense costs going to be? What are the true costs going to be when we acquire this property? Without that, I would have made a lot of mistakes. The same with self-storage. I partnered with someone who even though he's young and new, somewhat new to the business, he had really studied it, talked to a lot of professionals, been mentored by people and really understood inside and out how we could add value to that self-storage facility. And everything that he put in his pro forma ended up becoming a reality. With my non-performing note partner, I mean he knows that world inside and out. So when we acquire a note, the first 12 that I bought with him, we only had one that we lost money on and that was about $1,700.  James: Out of how many notes?  Brian: We bought 12 notes to start with because I like to test before I bring other investors in so I bought 12 notes with my partner, I JV with him. Five of the notes our average return was over 80%.  James: Wow. What timeline? Brian: A year and a half.  Well, actually, each note is kind of on its own timeline. So I'll tell you that of the twelve notes that he and I purchased together, five of them are closed and paid off like we've made our profit. Our average return on investment, before we split 50/50, our average return was 81% and that included the one note that we lost $1,700 on. Some of the returns that we're getting are phenomenal. Five of the notes are re-performing, which means that we were able to keep the homeowners in their homes, which is fantastic. That's our number one goal. Our average return on those notes as we collect the monthly income is 30%. And then two of them are in some form of foreclosure. In fact, we're about to sell one. We just listed it today actually, so we should make a decent return on that. We always try to work with the homeowner and keep them in the home. Half the time we're able to do that, half the time it just doesn't work out. But you asked me the timeline so, of those five notes that we closed, our average return was 81%, the average number of days that we were in each of those notes was 163 days so that took less than half a year.   James: I mean, those are good great numbers. I mean, I mentioned in my book, find the right operator in that asset class and partner with them or invest with them for passive investors. So as I said in every asset class, there's always good operators. So the numbers you're telling me in non-performing notes in self-storage are huge, right? I mean, I know multifamily you can make money if the market went up and you have a really good operator that can handle that. On average, not everybody is making what you just told me right now on self-storage. So why is multifamily more popular than other asset classes?   Brian: There are more people teaching it.  James: That's absolutely my point. Brian: Yeah, I mean like there are some excellent instructors out there in multifamily and you and I are both the part of a group with one of them. I mean great top-notch training material. Okay. Yeah, there's just fewer people out there. Whereas you have between 10 to 20 people out there teaching multifamily, you could count on one hand the number of people teaching self-storage and it's even less teaching the non-performing note.  James: I understand. Yeah, it is it is true. There's a lot more people teaching multifamily, a lot more boot camps, a lot more 2 days weekend seminars on multifamily compared to self-storage or non-performing notes. And I think multi-family is also very simple to understand, it's a house. Not many people understand what is non-performing notes.  Brian: Yeah, there's all that educational like just understanding and wrapping your head around the concept. I got into multifamily because I understood the economy of scale and I understood people have to have a place to live. So if you can get them to pay their rent and that rent pays all your expenses plus the mortgage, well, you can make a lot of money that way. And then once I understood the next level of value, which is the income valuation method, how commercial multifamily is valued based on the income method and you can increase your returns exponentially if you understand that. The relationship between cap rate and your net operating income and value that was very compelling to me. And I think that still is very compelling when it comes to investing in commercial real estate whether it be multifamily or self-storage. I think non-performing notes, there's a lot more perceived risk in that because it's not valued based on any  - it's hard to understand how that's valued because there are so many different scenarios in which you can profit from non-performing notes. That you can't just say well we value it this way and if you buy this note, this is what you're going to make, it's kind of a crapshoot. But if you do it right and you partner with someone who knows how to avoid the dogs, you can actually make a lot of money doing it.  James: So what is the most valuable value-add in non-performing notes? Brian: You mean an example of one of our...? James: No, not an example. I'm talking about what is the one thing that if you do the most of the time or the frequency of things that you do in non-performing notes that you get the most value out of? Brian: Well, yeah, it differs note by note. I'll give you two examples. One is a property that was pretty much a teardown property that we bought the note on in Middlebury, Indiana. We paid $5,000 for this note and I asked my partner, I mean it's $5,000, this property is a teardown. How are we going to make money on this? And he said, well, we're not buying this for this property for the house that's on it. We're buying it for the land because it's right next door to a farm and this farm is owned by this Amish family. So he sent a realtor over to the Amish family and they ended up paying $35,000 for that note. So after closing costs and paying the realtor and getting our initial $5,000 investment back, our profit was over $24,000 that represented a 245% return and we did that in less than two months. James: Yeah, but you need to identify that opportunity. I mean, it's not like you can go and buy any deals right now. Okay, very interesting. Brian: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Another quick example of how you can profit on notes and I don't want it to lead you to believe that your best profit is always going to be a few foreclose or take possession of the property because you can still make a lot of money if you can work with the homeowners. We bought a note on a property in northern Michigan, probably about 9 or 10 months ago now. And I believe the numbers were in the line of we paid $20,000 for this note, got the homeowners re-performing, the unpaid balance on this note is $41,000. Once we have them season for 12 months, meaning that they're paying on time for 12 months - we've been working with them with a mortgage loan originator, where they can go and get new financing, permanent financing of FHA or Fannie Mae type loan in place with much better interest rate much better payments. Well, when they go do that, they're going to pay off that unpaid balance. So our $19,000 investment, now that I'm thinking about it was $19,000, our $19,000 investment, we're going to get paid that $41,000 of the unpaid balance on their note, plus the money that they've been paying each year. So our return on that is going to be 100%, it's actually over a hundred percent.   James: Across how many years?  Brian: We'll be out of that in under 15 months. James: Okay, interesting. Brian: Because they're going to refinance and when they refinance, we get paid that unpaid balance. James: Got it. Got it. What about on the multifamily properties that you own before 2015? What do you think is the most valuable value-add that you really like?  Brian: Well, they're all great because just anything I bought between 2008 and 2012, I've achieved an infinite return on those.  James: Okay. So refied it by and you kept it? Brian: Yeah. Yeah, we've refinanced, pulled our initial investment out. We have no money in the properties and we're collecting cash flow every month. So you can't calculate a return on that. Probably one of the best examples is a 37 unit that we purchased. We bought it at a short sale in 2009, was about 600,000 is what we paid for it. We put a $200,000 into it right away to replace roofs, windows. It was a hodgepodge of heating systems. There's electric baseboard heat and hot water boiler heat and then gas forced-air furnace heat. It just depended on which unit you were looking at. So we replaced a lot of the mechanicals, made it as much of a new property as we could, as far as just the mechanicals and the roof and the windows. And we refinanced it once it had over 1.1 million dollar value, pulled all of our initial investment out plus some extra cash flow and then we just refinanced it again, put a tenure fixed loan on it through the Freddie Mac. small apartment loan. So we got great terms on it, 30-year amortization. At that point, it valued over two million dollars. So we've added a lot of value to it and the compression of cap rates didn't hurt either.  James: Yeah. Yeah. Those are the awesome deals, the deep value-adds. That's where you can go and refi and make it infinite written because you pulled out all your cost basis. Brian: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the goal to achieve infinite return. Whenever we can do that, that's what we do.  James: Absolutely. Aren't you worried about the state of the market right now in real estate in general?  Brian: You know, gosh, I was more worried about it two years ago than I am now probably. James: What has changed? Brian: Probably because two years ago, I was thinking, oh, it's going to turn any minute now and then it only got better and better. You and I both know Neil Bala and we talked to him at the last event we were at together and he made a very good case for the continuation of this market. And it basically rests on the fact that the United States, it's one of the few, if not the only places in the world where you can go to get real yield on your investment. We're seeing a lot of international money coming into the United States because in their countries, they're seeing negative yield or 0 yield. Here even if you can still get three or four percent yield on your investment, that's a lot of money. It's bringing a lot of money into this country and that's going to prop up our values for quite a long time. On top of that, I've always fought or believe that interest rates were going to rise and I've been believing that since 2000 and they keep going down. And even now, as we're speaking, they're talking about lowering the rate again by the end of the year. So that interest rate risk, I know we're playing with fire here and eventually, we're going to have to pay the piper but our government seems to keep coming up with ways to prolong this growth and the increase in prices. So am I worried? Not in the short term. No. No. The Economists I listen to are saying, oh, it's going to be a roaring 20s for us. Things are really going to hit the fan and. 2027, 2028, 29. James: Interesting. Yeah, because I think I don't know, maybe my thoughts are similar to yours somehow the Fed has figured out how to do quantitative easing and quantitative tightening. Somehow they're able to contract the economy and bring it down. So they could have found some new mechanism to keep the economy going even though our thought process always has been real estate goes in cycles. But at some point, you will hit an affordability issue, it can't [40:13unintelligible]  go up all the time, right?  Brian: Yes.  James: The prices can go up because the interest rate is coming down because now you can get more cash flow. But at the same time, you can't keep on increasing rent because our wages are not going up so much. I mean, I'm not an economist but at some point, you will hit some roadblock, but I'm not sure where is it and how is going to come.  Brian: Yeah, well, we're seeing a plateauing I think right now in just the rents that we're able to charge, the prices that people are willing to pay but it's still a very strong market. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going out there and just buying stuff like crazy because I am very conservative and like I said if I can't get the returns that I need to bring investors into my deals, I'm just not even looking at it. I don't anticipate that the market is going to have a huge correction, there might be a bump, I think if you're in a good market, like Grand Rapids, that bump won't be nearly as severe as some other places.  I'm keeping my eye on the market but at the same time, investing conservatively in asset classes that I think will be able to withstand the next correction.  James: Awesome. So let's go back to a personal side of things, right? So is there a proud moment throughout your career in real estate that you will remember for your whole life, one proud moment? Brian: One for a moment to put on my tombstone. James: Yeah, absolutely. That you really think that hard, I'm really proud I did that.  Brian: Yeah. So a couple of answers. I mean any time we're able to go in and improve a property and improving neighborhoods, that always makes me proud, you know, that we're adding value to a neighborhood and community. The older building that I told you about here in Grand Rapids, it was built in 1920. When we bought that it was very tired, kind of poorly managed, it was losing money. We were able to turn that around so I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of the fact that we also fought very hard and work very closely with the city to be able to put a restaurant in that building. So the fact that when we bought it it was 96 apartment units and about 6,000 square foot of vacant commercial space. Now we had to work with the city to get it rezoned because it had been vacant for so long, it had to be reverted to being zoned residential. So we spent over a year trying to get it rezoned so we could add commercial in there, but we filled up all 6,000 square foot including a restaurant and that took about two or three years to do.  So when I think about what I'm proud of I think I'm definitely proud of that.  James: Awesome. That there is hard work  because you're turning the zoning from residential to mixed use.  Brian: Yeah, mixed-use residential commercial, just dealing with parking, number of parking spots and green space and tree canopies. I mean, it was a massive undertaking.  James: Yeah. It's very interesting that kind of work. I did one that was borderline and we merged it with an apartment and we did so many things. It was a very unique value-add that we recently refinance.  Brian: What was it, a lot of work for you? James: It was a lot of work because you have to go through, you know, buying the deal - you had to buy two deals at the same time. One is the apartment and one is the land and then we have to go to the city to merge these two plots. Then you had to rezone it, then you had to - I mean replot it, rezone it And then after you do a tree survey, you have to do so many different surveys have to do to get that. It's not normal in a residential, you know, where you buy today and increase rent, reduce expense kind of deal. But it's very interesting and people got 80% of our money within 15 months, which is huge, just by doing this creatively.  Brian: That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, you talk about its zoning and tree, you know.  James: Yeah, zoning and tree and all those. Brian: So it's a whole new world and it definitely is costly and time-consuming because you have to have experts on your team. You got to bring experts like architects.  James: Yeah, we brought in architects, engineers.  Brian: Yeah, engineers who even understand what it is that the city is asking for because if you were trying to do that yourself, you just would be a mess. James: Yeah. I mean the good thing about what you said about what I'm proud of this kind of process and 99% of the syndicators don't have that kind of experience. Brian: Yeah. I didn't have that kind of experience but now I do.  James: Most of the time, you just buy buildings and, you know, look at increasing income and reducing expenses and after that, at some point you sell but you don't do different contracts buying land and doing kind of things. So another question for you, Brian, why do you do what you do?  Brian: I love it. I love what I do. I feel very entrepreneurial about it because I've been an employee up until about five or six years ago. Whatever it was I was doing, whatever job, I always embraced it and did the best I could. But what I love about being an entrepreneur, being a full-time real estate investor, now syndicator/asset manager is that it's all very self-motivated. I'm the one who decides what needs to happen, what I need to pay attention to on a day-by-day basis. I don't have a boss or anyone else telling me, 'Hey, Brian, go do this' when I'm like, 'no, I want to go do this instead.' I get to call the shots. So that's what I love about it. I get to call the shots, I get to take time off if I need to take time off and I get to kind of fill my day with activities that I want to be doing. James: Awesome. Hey Brian, you want to tell our listeners and audience how to get hold of you?  Brian: Sure, James. First of all, you can go to my website, which is higinvestor.com. That's HIG is Hamrick Investment Group. You can also listen to my podcast and James you've been a guest on there so you can definitely listen to me interview James. It's the Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast and it's sponsored by the RPOA, which we begin this conversation talking about. And if you want to get in touch with me, you can also email me Brian@higinvestor.com.   James: Awesome, Brian. Thanks for coming in and adding value to my listeners and audience and to myself as well in the kind of things from our discussion here. I think that's it. Thank you very much.  Brian: All right. Thanks, James. It's been a pleasure. It's a lot of fun. James: Lot of fun, thank you.  

James: So few things; we want to go through some of the markets and some of the value-add stuff and I think you do a lot of student housing things. Also, we can go through that as well. Yeah, that should be what it is. And okay, let me just get started. So 1 2 3...  Hey audience, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast where we focus a lot on value-add real estate investing. Today, we have Jeff Greenberg who has more than 40 years experience in management, staff supervision, development, and training. Jeff has been investing since 2007 and has more than 40 million multi-property projects consisting of around 2,000 units. So deals that he controls consist of student housing and some of the multifamily units across, Georgia, Arizona, Texas, and Ohio. And Jeff focuses a lot on value-add student housing, which is very interesting. Until now, we have a lot of podcast interview on conventional multifamily in workforce housing, but now, we're going to talk a lot more about student housing. Jeff has also done market rate and also senior living multifamily properties. Hey, Jeff, welcome to the show.  Jeff: Well, how you doing today?  James: I'm good. So thanks for coming in. I want to go with more details on how did you get started because you rent a thousand units across different states. So can you describe to our listeners and audience on how did you get started?  Jeff: Well, probably similar to a lot of other people, I started out with single-family, but actually never did any single family deals. That was in 2007 when the prices were going down so fast that it was hard to do much in the single-family area as far as REO properties, the bank's weren't releasing them. So I did bump into a guru and so I did go to seminars and did get some mentoring around in 2007-2008. And then started with my first property that I ever bought, other than my own personal residence, was a 20-unit property and it was a syndicated deal.  So we brought in investors into that first deal and that was essentially my entry into it. skipped right past all the single-family stuff. James: And what year was it, Jeff? Jeff: That was the first property we bought, actually it was in 2010. James: Okay. So 2010 you started with 20 units and the guru and the cost that you had taken was that more multifamily or was it more a single-family size? Jeff: It was all multi-family stuff.  James: Okay, got it. So you got into that and then you started buying 20 units and which market was that?  Jeff: Well, that Market was in Harlingen, which is in South Texas. Okay. It's near Brownsville and McAllen, for those people that know that area.  James: Okay. Okay. So 2010 was supposedly supposed to be a perfect time to start investing in real estate after the 2008 crash. So can you describe what happened in your first deal? I mean at high level and what happened and how did you come up, in terms of the results for the first day of... Jeff: Yeah. The first deal, that property was only three years old. It was built in 2007. It was a hundred percent occupied and it was in a very slow growth market. So we had big plans for raising rents and they were already paying electric so we were planning on billing back water. And the problem was it was very difficult to raise the rents. We were getting a lot of resistance and doing the bill back of the water, we met with a lot of resistance. So we had nowhere else to go. It was already a hundred percent occupied because it was a new property. And so that was a plan which didn't work very well because we couldn't get those rents up. It took them a long time to get the rents up. So the lesson learned from there was that you needed to do more research on to the potential for the value-adds. And in that property, we held it for six years; we were supposed to sell in five. We held it to 6 because we drew a line in the sand as far as what price we would take and it took us an extra year before we are able to get that price in order to get the investors a fair return. But it took us an extra year. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been much much of a profit on that property. So it was a seminar.   James: I mean, that's awesome that you're sharing your first lessons learned, right? Because sometimes you know, we forget that there are things that we missed out or there are things that you know, we don't really see it when you go and buy a multi-family. Sometimes you buy in a hot market and it went up 200-300%. People think that they did the work but that's not going to be the case all the time. Jeff:  Well, that's basically what happened on the next property though. So the next property was a property we bought in Houston where it was a foreclosed property that we were buying it. The owner we were buying it from actually bought it as a foreclosure so he had had it for about two years. It is 62 units so he bought it for 600,000 and we bought it for 1.3 after he had it for two years and so we got it for about under 21,000 a unit.  And at the time, in Houston, the values were going from 25,000 to maybe 35,000 a unit so we still bought it under market value and then in three years, we sold it for 2.7 million. And the reason we got that value part of it, it was 85 percent occupied when we got it. We got it up to 95 percent occupied. The revenue was about 36,000, we got it up to about 42,000. But also at that time, the cap rates compressed so we bought it at a 9 cap and sold it at a 7 cap. So we got the advantage of the market, the market appreciation as well as what we did for it so that was a perfect storm for us. So it completely made up for our first one, in that the investors got a 120% return on a three-year whole. So a 40% annualized return, which nobody complained about. James: Yeah, absolutely.  Jeff: But that's unusual and that was totally different from the other property where the investors got a lot better than they would have in the bank, but they didn't get a fantastic return. So different properties, different deals.  James: So I mean that too is conventional multifamily, right?  Jeff: Yeah. James: And how many conventional multifamilies did you do before you start hitting into student housing?  Jeff: Well, the next one after that actually was a student house. I mean, I was invested in another person's deal that was about 700 units 20 million dollar deal that we were in. But the next deal I did after that, actually, we broke up our partnership. My partner back decided not to do real estate anymore and I continued on my own and that's when I got a small property in Ohio. I had a 19-year-old student that went and found this property for me in Oxford, Ohio, and that's when I got into student housing. So we were talking, we mentioned earlier as far as how it getting into student housing, I really didn't plan on it. It was my intern that found the property and said, "Hey, let's get this," and the numbers look good and we got into it. So that was our first student housing deal in Oxford.  James: Yeah. I mean, I'm going to go a bit deeper into that. But I mean you are now in California, you are based California, but you have been buying in McAllen, Texas and Houston and Ohio. So how did you decide on where to go or is it just whatever opportunity that comes to you?  Jeff: Well, I've been pretty opportunistic, basically, when an opportunity comes in. Right now, we're kind of reversing out a little bit and trying to do more focus on markets. But at that point in time, we were just looking at opportunities and when an opportunity came we did our research on the market and did it afterward, rather than doing it up ahead of time. We decided do we really want to be in this market and if we did then we went up to the property. But it was more properties came to us from different directions. The one in Georgia, I had a lady working with me that I had trained and she developed a relationship with a broker in Georgia and that was pretty much where we got the Georgia property from, which was our next student housing property.  James: So one thing I want to clarify. You said you had an intern and you have this lady that you have been training. So do you have interns working for you or do you have students that are looking for deals? Jeff: Yeah. The first one was an intern that I had trained and then after that, there was a group of people that came to me and asked me to train them and so I started training them and teaching them how to find properties. And in the last three years, we've done a couple of deals together, but they basically found the properties. Yeah, and you know that I've been training them as we've been going, showing them a lot of the different aspects of it; doing due diligence with them and taking them on the tours with a lot of those students. Since then things have changed a little bit but at that time, those were people that I have trained. James: So is it like part of your mentoring program or you just train for fun kind of thing? Jeff: It wasn't a formal mentoring program, but it was kind of a mentoring program.  James: Okay got it. Jeff: But it was just more informal that I had helped people and in turn, they would bring properties in and if I like them, would go after them. Say it saves me underwriting a hundred deals to find one, they would underwrite a hundred deals, bring me one and I'd only have to look at a few of them. So much of our deals that I had to look at, you know, when they would bring them supposedly all ready to go and I would decide yay or nay on them if I liked them. James: Okay, got it. So coming back to the student housing and you said one of your interns found it. And, I mean, can you describe how did he find that deal?  Jeff: Well, he was embarrassed to tell me, actually. He was embarrassed to tell me until after we had closed that he actually found in on LoopNet. And you know there are deals on LoopNet but usually, they're overpriced or maybe there's some other problem with them and it so happened that the seller was beaten up by two other buyers prior to my purchase. We got it for a much lower rate. So at the price that we got it at,  it was a great deal but at the original price, it wouldn't have been.  James: Got it. Got it. So let's describe the process. So this intern brought you the deal. So what are the few things that you look at the deal that you think you're going to take a second look at it? Jeff: Well, I mean several things. The one thing I had my interns do is I want to do as little work as possible myself. So I told them I want bullet points on why I want to be on that market, you know, what's the advantages of this market? With student housing, the emphasis is more on the school, but all the different reasons that this is a great market to be in and also as well as the numbers for the property itself.  And basically, they have to come in and give me a sales pitch and convince me with a presentation that this is a deal I want to do. And on the regular market rate ones, you know the typical stuff with the employment and the population growth and the age of the population and all of that typical stuff that we look at. Over the student housing, it's the size of the college, the percentage of rooms available on campus versus off campus, basically, the health of the university. The location of the property, how close it is to the university, those kinds of things that we look for more so on the student housing. James: So, can you go a bit more, dig deeper into how far from the campus which you consider in campus versus other campuses? Jeff:  Well, as far as what we look for, typically, we want something within a mile of the campus. My Georgia one is a block away, my Ohio one is within what they call a Mile Square. My Arizona property is a little bit farther out. It's two miles off campus and that one, it's a little bit more of a struggle but you're not going to get the prime rates and we understood that because when you're two miles out. So you want it close by the campus, you want it on the right side of the campus, rather than way away from the classrooms where people still have to walk a mile across the fields to get to campus. So you want to be on the the the closer side where the classes are but it will help you out also if you're near. the bar district or where all the hangouts are that sometimes will make up for being a little bit far from the campus.  If you're where all the hangout places, the cool places are that helps you out. The other thing in student housing is the bedroom bathroom parody. If you could get a one-on-one with a one-bedroom and one bathroom that's going to be a lot better than your four twos or your 3 ones or whatever. The more bathrooms you have, they like that. Also, it seems that student nowadays, they want to share with fewer people. So a 4-2 wouldn't be as popular as a 2-1, you know where you still got two people sharing a bathroom, but you only have two people that have to get along with each other. And if you could get a 1-1, you're even better off; that they're a lot happier with.  In fact, I was talking to someone the other day that I had some 4-2 that I actually split them in half and made two ones out of them. Just had to put a kitchenette in order that they have fewer people to share. James: Okay, interesting. So have you started focusing fully on student housing now or you're still doing conventional multifamily? Jeff:  We're doing both because I do like the fact that people mess up student housing and it gives us an opportunity, you know, everybody we know from the groups we're in, everybody's looking for value-add multifamily, but there are fewer people looking for value-add student housing. And so that just gives me a little bit of an advantage on that. But other than that, I mean that's the main reason I'm looking at student housing is that there are fewer people looking at it and if you know what to do with the student housing, there are certainly some great opportunities. I don't think I would recommend it as somebody's first opportunity, the first investment because there is a little more risk into it, but it's a good asset class.  James: So let's discuss some of the risks that's involved with student housing. So can you outline a few risks that a newbie should watch out for student housing?  Jeff: Yeah. Well, part of the risk is missing the lease up window, wherein multifamily if you don't get it leased it up this month, maybe I'll lease it up next month. But on student housing, if you get it leased up by a certain time and each campus is usually different, if you don't get it leased up in time, during that time, you may be stuck with empty units for the whole year. So you've got to get it leased up during that time.  The other thing is, you're going to have higher turnover and it depends on the property as well. My Georgia property, we're hardly getting any turnover because there are not a lot of other options in the market. My Ohio property there's plenty of other options so they may go from one property to another each year. Same with my Arizona property, they may switch around. So it's going to depend on what's available at their price range if there's going to be turnover.  My first year on the Ohio property, I think was like 85 percent turnover, which most people will freak out thinking, you know, okay, 85% and it's all at once. It's everybody's gone at the same time. And so, you've got to turn all these units and have them ready for the new tenants coming in. So we always budget for a higher expense as far as because of the turnovers because turnovers, as we know, is one of our bigger expenses so we'll budget for that.  A lot of people think that student housing, you have a lot more in the way of damage and we really haven't seen that, we haven't seen a lot of damage. And the thing is we charge back everything that's caused by the students that not that normal wear and tear. I mean, we get things; wine stains in the carpeting or iron marks where they put an iron down on the carpeting and melted the carpet, shot glasses or beer caps in the garbage disposal. We do get lockouts, you know, where were you're having to fix the door because somebody kicked it in, in order to get in or you get domestic disputes where some boyfriend goes and punches a wall because he's pissed off or something. I mean, we do get some of those but the deposits cover most of that stuff.  James: Got it. I'm sure the parents will pay too, I guess. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, if it gets beyond the deposit we have then the parents will usually jump in. James:  And how much is the turnover cost that you usually budget for student housing like in conventional usually like for me I usually budget like $100 per unit, per year? Jeff: As far as for turnover? James: Yeah. Not repair and maintenance,  just turn over.  Jeff: Well, if we look at the overall repair and maintenance budget usually we're about five or six hundred, overall. And my student housing ones, my Ohio, I believe we're at 1,800 per units. James: Repair and maintenance? Jeff: Yeah. James: Well, that's a lot.  Jeff: I have to lower that down. I don't even think we're using that but that's what I originally put it about. James: Okay. Got it. Yeah. Because usually total repair and maintenance plus turnover is like 500 to maximum $600 on conventional.  Jeff: Yeah, I mean, mainly because of your turnover costs. On that property, we've been painting every wall every time we turn over. I'm not sure if we need that but we've been doing that. It's been a little bit higher. I mean, it's been higher on that one. The other one in Georgia, our turnover costs aren't nearly as much.  James: And what do you expect other than, do you do anything special to reduce your turnover cost? Jeff:  Well, we try to encourage re-leasing and we do give lower rates for those people that are releasing as well as if they release early, we do give them discounts on that. And in the thing is, on my Georgia property, if they release, we may keep their rents at the same rate or maybe just raise it slightly in order to keep them in because that saves us a lot of money. That saves us a lot of money on the turnovers.  James: Okay, correct. What about the interior? Like carpets vs. vinyl vs metal.  Jeff: Typically, I mean, we don't have to make it too fancy. But we do put, I believe in the Ohio one, we've got the role on vinyl flooring. In the bedrooms, we do have carpeting. It's just Formica countertops. We don't need to do anything fancy and that's going to depend as well on the demographics of your clients. My Ohio property is upper middle class. It's Miami University and it's probably an upper-middle-class clientele. My Georgia property is a very low economic clientele, they would be thrilled with anything we put in there. So we just kind of resurface the Formica countertops. We did some chemical wash on the showers and the tubs and repainted everything. We do have nice laminate floors in there, except for the bedrooms. The bedrooms are the only rooms with carpeting. We just painted the cabinets. From the state that they were in, what we did just totally brightened up the property. I mean, just totally changed it. They were a mess and this isn't an old property. That's a 1999 property but there was some old indoor-outdoor carpeting in the hallways that just look just totally disgusting. That we put all vinyl laminate in the hallway and it looks great now. James: Awesome. And what about during the summer? I mean a lot of them don't stay in the unit, right? So they still pay for the summer or does it get re-rent or is it vacant or what's happening? Jeff: Again, that depends on each of our markets. And the Georgia one, I believe we are 70% for this summer, which is high. I think last year we were about 60 percent during the summer. So those that are going to summer school can stay there. But in August, we'll be back up at 98 to 100% on that property.  That was a property we bought at 30% occupied and now we're over 100, we're at 100 like it's not over. We're at 100% occupancy on that one. James: And what about students which is more like, you know, four-year degree versus postgraduate degree, have you tried experimenting with that? Jeff:  You know, my Ohio property, we have some studio apartments and a lot of those are rented to graduates as well as young Professor. So yeah, those are great tenants if you can get them. The graduates, they're a little more mature and you never hear anything from them so those are great on some of the properties. We do have graduates in some properties, but most of them are second-year students. Typically the schools require that the students stay on campus the first year so as freshmen, so we usually get them as sophomores. James: Got it. So coming back to the demand side of it for student housing. I'm just trying to understand but I lost my train of thought here. I mean, for example, let's say the price, in terms of rent, I mean the rent is much higher compared to the normal workforce housing. Do you think that's a benefit as well?  Jeff: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And the rent is higher than we get more benefit from the additional rent than it costs us on any additional maintenance expenses. So there is a higher cost benefit that we do get from the student housing. So that's one of the things we like. The other thing that we do like also about the student housing is it is fairly recession-resilient and you know, we all know that we're at a high point in our market right now, we don't quite know what's going on, as far as where we're going to be in the economy. And student housing, historically, has done very well during down markets and that's something also that I look at when I look at properties. How well did it do during the last recession and to see how far down it dipped. And typically you find that student housing and as well as self-storage typically do well in those markets. And so that's another reason why we like looking at those deals.  James: Well, yeah, I mean the rationale is people go to school when the economy is downturn right? Jeff: That's part of it. And the other thing is parents are going to try to get their kids into college as soon as they get out of high school because if they lose them to the workforce for a year or two, it's going to be really tough getting them back in. So if a parent is going to be paying for their kid, they are going to find a way to do it. Otherwise, they may not get them in the college later on.  James: Got it. So, in terms of value-add and I'm sure you are trying to make your community, in terms of student housing much better than other communities. So is there one of the value-adds that you do in your community that you think, you know, you will be able to command much higher rent and much higher occupancy? Jeff: Well, the one we haven't really done is the bed to bath parity. And as I mentioned the person that broke a 4 2 into a 2 1 that was a value-add because as I said, the students prefer not to share. If you could add another bathroom, so you've got 2-2 even if it's a small little bathroom, you know, or just a makeup area with a sink that's of great value because the students now don't like to share the bathrooms.  In Ohio, I've got some 4-4s, as well as some 4-2s but they love having their own private bathroom. In Arizona is all 5-2s - five bedrooms, two baths. That's not as desirable. If I could put in some other baths, I would probably you know, make people happy but that's well expensive. That's not a real cost-effective way of doing it. But also in the Georgia property, we put Wi-Fi throughout the property. So essentially, anywhere they get on the campus or on the property they've got the Wi-Fi. So that was definitely a value-add that we put into it. James:  What about other things like study rooms or the Library, the community? Jeff: We just redid our office and we did put in a workspace. James: A workspace, a business center.  Jeff: Yeah a business center. Exactly. We did put in a business center where they could come in and print if they need to print documents because a lot of people, a lot of the kids have their tablets or their laptops or their phones or whatever, but they may not even have printers these days. And I guess a lot of the stuff they submit right online in a PDF to their teacher whatever but we did create the business center so they could come in and print stuff out if they need to. And also have a scanner where they can scan their documents.  The other thing that we were looking at but we may leave for the next owner because we are selling this property, is a picnic area. We haven't built that yet; put a picnic area with some barbecues and that kind of stuff but that's the last phase of what we've been trying to do on this property. The main thing on this property is, the students have loved it, just fixing it up so it's much more livable. It was pretty disgusting when we got there. I mean it was a nasty place and that's why it was 30% occupied. And now, we've got the premium property in the market.  James: Yeah. I mean, there you go. I mean, value-add in terms of managing it. So people love that. Jeff: And then the other thing that we did on this particular property is we got a relationship with the school. We went on campus and talk to all the coaches and told them we wanted them to send their athletes over to the property. And at first, well, the track coach went and looked at us like we were from Mars and said, "Why would I want to send my kids over there?" And then we invited him to come over and look at the property to see what we have done. And now we've got a bunch of athletes over there now after they've seen the improvements we've done.  We also have participated as a sponsor with the athletic department where we give them a donation every year and we've been able to get an advertisement spot on their Jumbotron during all home basketball and football games and so we've been putting our advertisement there. That's why we're essentially 100% with waiting lists on the property. You know, we got a relationship with them, we went and communicated with the police chief and the mayor. The mayor actually came out to our open house wearing one of our t-shirts, the mayor of the city. So we got really involved with the community and it's a small market but we did get involved with that and all of that essentially added value. As I said, we've got a waiting list now, we can raise rents. The main thing that we were emphasizing throughout this two-year hold, we've only had it for a little over two years, was getting the occupancy up. That was the big thing. I wanted the occupancy up, I didn't care about raising rents. Now, we've got the occupancy now, we're going to start raising rents. Or what we're doing is we're actually selling it. So we're leaving it for the next person. The next guy could come in raise rents without having to do anything. They can come in and raise rents without having to do anything just because we've redone this entire property.  James: Awesome, awesome. Very, very, very, very interesting tips on how to get engage in student housing marketing. So what about financing, who gives the financing? Is it still agency loans or is it small Banks or how's that?  Jeff: Well, we'll start off with the Georgia, probably. The Georgia property we paid all cash. At 30% occupied we weren't going to be looking for a lender. Yeah, my Ohio property that was a challenge and it ended up that I went with a privately owned bank. It's not a small bank, it has 36 branches so I wouldn't call it really small but it's privately held and they loan in Kentucky and Ohio, I think. So if anybody's looking for either student housing or lending, they do those two states. They're actually a Kentucky-based lender. The Arizona one was just a regular bridge lender that funded that one and eventually, we'll go out of the bridge into an agency loan.  James: So you think you can get an agency loan on student housing?  Jeff: Yeah. We can get an agency loan. James: Because I know usually when I go to an agency, they usually ask, you know, how many percents are students, how many percents are corporate housing and all that so I'm not sure. Jeff: Yeah, I don't remember if it's Fannie or Freddie that will do student housing. But they do require a certain population. I think it's 15,000 student population, something like that. James: Got it. Oh, really? Okay, that's interesting.  Jeff: Yeah, but I don't remember which one it was but one of them will do agency. James: Yeah, that's awesome. So, let's go back to slightly more personal questions. So do you have any proud moment in your real estate career that you're going to remember for a long time, that you think 'I really, really did something that I'm really, really proud of', do you want to share that?  Jeff: Oh, I could go back to the Georgia property where I had a period that I actually was brought to tears. When we were doing that video that I was talking about that we gave to the school to put on there, our advertisement, I actually went down and did the interviewing of the students myself for that property because I have a background in video. And the stuff that our property management was taking was just horrendous.  I went down there and interviewed the students and I didn't tell them who I was, they didn't know I was one of the owners or the owner. And the last question I asked them was if you had an opportunity to talk to the owner or to let the ownership know, what would you tell them? And some of the answers that I got were just tearjerkers. I mean, I had one girl that said that she was so happy with her new room that she now can actually bring her mom and show her where she lived that she was actually proud of where she was living now. And some of the other students were just saying, how much safer they felt, you know, much nicer environment. We had gotten rid of all the riffraff. We had gotten rid of a lot of people that were not students, but they were just living there and just smoking dope and we had increased the security and we had the police coming by, you know, just to keep things safe. And so just talking to these kids, they're not kids, they are 19- 20-year-old, you know, young adults, but that was one of the most rewarding moments I had. Because here they were, this is a low economic area where most of these students have very disadvantaged upbringing and we were giving them a nice clean safe place to live that they can be proud of.  And they appreciate it much more so than some of the other properties where we may have upper-middle-class people in there that probably don't appreciate what you're doing as much as these guys do. So that was just an absolute, you know, great opportunity to be there with these guys.  James: Yeah. It's very interesting on how we as entrepreneurs and operators change people's lives and it's just so fulfilling when you do that. And for me, It means a lot. Making the money, I mean, this story, you will always remember it. Sometimes you forget about how much money you made in that deal but you will remember how you impacted people's life, which is amazing. Jeff: Yeah, I mean, that's what I think about. I mean certainly we're all going to make money on this deal, you know, a good amount once we sell this but that feeling, you know, I'll have all the time. I mean that was great, you know hearing these guys.  James: So any advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk your path in multifamily and student housing in general; if they want to be as successful as you? Jeff:  The thing is, find somebody that has walked the walk. You know, it could be a mentor, it could be a formal mentor, it could be somebody that's doing it. If you find somebody in your area or someone you meet up that is successful in whatever it is they're doing, be it multifamily, student housing, you know, senior living whatever; you find somebody else that's successful and find a way of being some kind of service to them. How you can help them out and go to them with that, hey, I would like to help you out. Do something and learn from them. That's the best way to learn anything is to be working with somebody else that's doing it. You know that would be what I would do. I did some formal mentoring in the beginning and that helped me get started. I would have loved to have been working side by side with someone with more experience. As it was, my partner and I were both about at the same level when we started but being around someone that's been there and done that is a great way to start out in this business.  James: Awesome. Awesome. Hey Jeff, we almost there to the end. You want to let our audience know how to reach you?   Jeff: Well, you can email me jeff@synergeticig.com or you could go to my website, which is also www.synergeticig.com  You could also get a hold of me at Bigger Pockets and I'm around on the forms a little bit. James: Yeah, I remember when I was starting in real estate, I used to see you a lot on Bigger Pockets. So it's good. Jeff:  I haven't been on as much lately. I need to start renewing some of that but I was on a lot in the beginning. That got me a lot. I mean it got me on my first podcast so... James: Awesome. Awesome. Well, Jeff, thanks for adding value to our listeners and audience here. I'm sure we learned a lot. I learned a lot as well, in terms of student housing and the nuances of how to add value in student housing and how to operate and at least look at the deal. And so it was very good to have you here, and that's it. Thank you very much and talk to you soon.  Jeff: Thank you.

James:  Hi, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast. Today, I have Glen Gonzalez who have been a big operator out of you know, Austin, Texas, and Glenn has deals which he has done in Dallas area, Corpus Christi Clean and south of Houston City, called Lake Jackson. And he is currently owning about 3,000 units at some point, in the past few years, he owned like more than. 4,500 units and he also have a strong property management company, previously, which used to manage up to 6,500 units. So he brings really good value to this podcast. Hey Glenn, how are you doing? Glenn: Hey, James, doing great. Thanks for having me on, this is exciting.  James: Yeah. Yeah. Did I miss out any of the story behind you that you want to clarify? Glenn: Maybe. I think where I came from, you know, because people are always interested. You know, we talk about all the success that we have, but I actually started as a maintenance man. James: Wow.  Glenn: I was kind of at the bottom of the barrel, picking up trash and I was like a porter, really. And then I was eventually painting apartments and fixing stoves and stuff. So my involvement in the apartment industry started about 30 years ago. So I actually came through as a maintenance man, leasing agent, property manager, then a regional manager, director of operations and so all the way through. Pretty much all the different ranks of Property Management until about six years ago, when I started buying my own, as the owner. And that really changes the perspective on apartments, you know, you got an operator perspective and an owner perspective, so maybe I could share some of that today while we're all on the call.  James: Sure. That would be really, really interesting. I mean some of the big guys that I know in this apartment, such as Ken McElroy. I mean, he started as a property manager, right? And I interviewed Eddy Lauren who has done like more like 1 billion in transactions as an operator. One of the big first advice that he told our listeners when I interviewed him like a few podcasts back was like, start from the ground, start to learn from the ground itself. Be property manager or be a maintenance man or porter and then learned in the business because you can learn so many things. So it looks like you have that 'coming from the ground' experience. Now, you have no more than 3,000 units and you used to have 4,500 units, which is awesome. I mean looking at from the ground itself up to the asset management; like when you were maintenance man or a porter, what did you think about the owners? Glenn: Oh my gosh, I used to get so nervous when the owners would show up to one of my apartment complexes because my boss would call me and say, hey, the owners are coming so I want to make sure this place looks perfect and everything is in order. And then they would tell me things like, you know, if they ask you a bunch of questions, you know, they would say let me do the talking. So I was basically supposed to keep my mouth shut and that just kind of made me nervous, you know, because of all the hype and stuff.  So I don't know, you kind of think the owners are almost not like real people to some degree, but they are, they're just like you and me. They're just common folks.   James: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean sometimes, especially the maintenance crew, right? I mean usually when owners come into a property, when we go and visit our property - I mean, most of the owners, we talk to the office staff, right? Because we think we control the whole thing but the backbone of renewal in the property is the maintenance. Because people are happy when work orders are being taken care of and people really like that. So we really make it a point to really take care of the maintenance people and that's another advice for all the listeners out there. If you own property, don't just look at the property managers or the leasing agents or the assistant managers; go and say hi to your maintenance people because they are really, really important. Don't you think so? Glenn: Absolutely. I would add a little bit to that. You know, when I go visit a property, I always speak with the maintenance guys, always because they will tell you everything that's going on on that property, even the stuff the manager might not know. I mean, they know how often they're recharging air conditioners or how often they're fixing things. I mean, they know the work orders like the back of their hand, but beyond that, they even know the tenants. I mean they know which ones have pets and which ones don't have pets because they're in there, doing work orders. They know everything. And I would say that they're often the ones that are neglected because like you mentioned earlier, when we go and do a site visit, a lot of times we'll sit down with the property manager and we'll talk about the lessee and the marketing and the delinquency and some of those common things but rarely do we talk to the maintenance guy about, hey, is there anybody out here that's like a bad apple, that's like creating a lot of havoc? And they will tell you who's dumping the trash out there. They will tell you who are having parties late at night and whose got like 5 dogs in their apartment. You know, I mean, they know everything. So my advice is if you need to know what's really going on behind the scenes, get to know your maintenance guys. James: Yeah. I think it's also important during the due diligence process right? Because sometimes we are with the Brokers and we have the managers and you can see that they like to hide the people who know the real stuff which is the maintenance guys, right? So try to get to them to ask more questions. Did you have any tips and tricks to get to maintenance guys while doing due diligence so that we can get the truth from them?  Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. I think part of it is just making them feel appreciated and that their opinion matters, I'll tell you this just like I was sharing my experience. I used to get really nervous when the owners would come around because to me, when I was younger, they were very intimidating. So if one of those guys came up and wanted to talk to me, I'd be like, um, you're talking to me? So find a way to make them comfortable, you know, really, at the end of the day, just make them feel appreciated for all their hard work and acknowledge that they are such a big part of the team. And when they feel appreciated and they feel acknowledged, trust me, they'll share with you a lot of important information.  They may offer information that nobody else knows. They may say things like, hey, by the way, I would go check the roofs on building 3 because we had several roof leaks on that one building in the last four months. They know everything because they're doing all the sheetrock repairs on the inside, right? And so they even know where it's leaking. It could be around the chimney or something in there. Just be like, good idea, thanks. I will check that. So yeah, due diligence, maintenance guys, you're absolutely right. James: The other thing that we do, just to share with the listeners is you know, we also ask the maintenance guys to rank the property managers. So it's not only like property managers control the whole thing, I think six months, once a year, we do this 360 feedback on the property managers from the maintenance right? Because you know, sometimes you need to give them the voice, right? And I think we have to just give them an official channel for them to voice what they want to share in terms of how the property managers are doing,  what these people are doing. Glenn: You know and I've shared this with some of my friends in the industry that you'll never ever have a successful manager without a successful maintenance guy and vice versa. If one of them are really good at their job and the other one is not, you will not be maximizing the value of that apartment complex. I mean, it's almost like a marriage, you know, the manager and the maintenance supervisor, they're married at the hip. They've got to be on the same page and if they're not, if they're complaining about each other, you know, that's an opportunity to stop and pause about why they're not on the same page. So just FYI, you know, and if one of the maintenance guys like you said gives a rating to the manager of a very low number like, oh, that manager is a 2 at the best, you might want to go talk to the manager.  Like how do you rate your maintenance guy? He's like a negative 2 at best, you know, and it's like, what's going on and who knows what the problem is? Before you could then read the financials. The financials will tell you the story too because if your way out of budget, you know, say the maintenance guy is not very good at painting so he wants to contract out every paint and your turned cost could be very, very expensive. There's a lot of you know things that you can learn from each other. That's why it's on your part.  James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, how did you climb that ladder from porter to maintenance to becoming an owner? Glenn: It's a funny story, James, it's really funny story. To be honest with you, I'm out there trying to do work orders and I started my industry in Salt Lake City and it's really cold outside. So when you're picking up trash, you're freezing cold, especially when you're going from apartment to apartment, carrying all this stuff. Anyway, so I went and I told my boss, you know, I don't want to be a maintenance guy forever. I want to be a manager because they get to sit in the office and talk on the phone. That was my motivation, I was young. I just don't want to be out in the cold. So they're like well, we don't have any openings for maintenance guys to be managers. I'm like well just so you know, that's my next step.  So they had a 60 unit apartment complex that needed a part-time manager and a part-time maintenance guy so I said I'll take it. So I was part-time on each one of those so I got to learn the manager skill and you know talk on the phone and then I needed the work orders and make ready and I learned with this valuable lesson. Somebody moved in and they had to fill out one of those move-in checklists to make sure that the units in proper condition when people move in and they turned it into the manager after they signed the lease and it's got all these things that don't work. The stove doesn't work right, the toilet is running and the dishwasher won't cycle or whatever. So that I got to know who fixed this apartment, you need to get them back. So I'd go back later in the day and I would take my tools and change my clothes and they're like, hey, what are you doing here? I'm like, well, I'm the maintenance guy. And they're like, oh, so you're the one that got this apartment ready? I'm like, yeah, that was me. And I realized then I was not a very good maintenance guy, but that was my transition.  But I really was able to turn that apartment community around. And the problem with occupancy and revenue and it got to the point where it was doing very, very well because I kind of was able to see it from both sides. I knew how much we can rent them for but I also knew we had to get them ready first and I work my little magic as a newbie to the industry. I was very successful.  My boss recognized the success and they had another, I think, it was larger, I don't remember exactly, 200 or 300 units. It was struggling with some of the same stuff and they asked if I would go there and give him my opinion. So I went, kind of as a manager, over to this other community and found that the leasing agent and the manager were really good friends but that leasing agent wasn't very effective at all and the manager was too good of friends to fire her friend.  So I said, well, let's do one of those secret shops and do an evaluation and kind of did all that and I showed the manager. Look, you know, you're not a very good manager because you're not able to make a business decision. You've got to make changes on the leasing and that leasing agent is affecting you as a leader. So she kind of said she realized at that time that if she wasn't able to make an improvement or change it was going to stifle her own career as well. So she made that change and all the sudden, the leasing got better and collections got better and people were giving better reviews and my boss recognized that I had this knack for identifying problems. Well, then I got to oversee multiple apartment complexes and I became what's known as an area manager so I had two or three that I could oversee. So my career just started kind of progressing a little bit. I graduated college and I was supposed to be a hospital administrator and I did my internship at a hospital and I did not want to do that the rest of my life. So here I was at a crossroads, maintenance manager/hospital administrator, now what?  So I said, I'm just going to make Property Management my career. And then I just started getting more educated with real estate licensing, then I eventually got my CPM designation and I was involved with the apartment association stuff. So there you go. That's kind of how I moved up the ladder a little bit. James: So at what point did you buy your first property? I mean, syndicated or you know, start using some other.. Glenn:  Sure that's a great question. So in the time frame from that point, it was probably another, gosh, 10 or 15 years later. I was now working for a big REIT, a Real Estate Investment Trust, in the Pacific Northwest. Equity Residential, they're very big property owner-manager REIT and I was getting great experience there. Well, I had a mentor that was serving on the board of directors for the apartment association, his name is John Gibson, also from Washington. And I went to John and said John I want to buy an apartment complex one day. And I showed him this little 60 unit deal that I was analyzing. And at this time I was still a regional manager. I still got a W-2 paycheck. When I went to John and I said, "You know, tell me what you think."  And he said, "You know, you'll probably do okay."  He said, "But I have this little 44 unit apartment complex, I'll sell you and I'll make it much easier to buy."  I said, "How so?"  He's like, "You just need to come up with a $150,000 down payment and I'll carry a note back for the rest."  And I said, "Great. Let me go look at it."  So I went and looked at it and this guy wasn't managing it very well and I knew how to manage pretty well so I'm like, 'This is great, we can make money on this."  So I went to two of my friends and I said, "You guys want to go in on this apartment complex with me?"  They said, "What do we need?" I said, "$150,000."  And they said, "You know, what are the splits?"  I said, "A third, a third, a third."  And they said, "Okay."  I said, "But you each have to put up $75,000."  And they're like, "Whoa, well, for a third, a third, a third, shouldn't we split that 150,000, a third, a third, a third?" But I didn't have any money. So I'm like, "I found the deal if we're gonna make money and you guys put up the equity, you guys will get your money back before me but once we start making money, we'll split a third, a third, a third."  And those two friends said, "All right, sounds good."  We did it. We bought that apartment complex. He carried a note back and we own it for like a year and a half and we sold it for about a million dollars more than we paid for it in eight months. So that third, a third, a third, those folks were pretty happy. So the mistake I made is when I sold it, I carried back a note on part of our profits and the guy that borrowed or bought it from us has defaulted on that note. So, actually, we made a lot of money on paper, I lost half of it to a bad note. So word to the wise if you're going to be a lender to a buyer, do your homework.  James: So you seller-financed to someone else, I guess. Glenn: Yes. We still pocketed a half million dollars. So I mean we did okay, but we carried a note back. That was my very first deal, it was 44 units and it was while I was still working as an employee. James: That's very interesting because you really came from the ground up and you made that transition to a owner, you know, and you found the deal and you able to convince your friends to finance it. So at what point did you had the realization that, hey, I'm a regional now, I want to buy and why did you want that thought process came in? Why did you want to be an owner?  Glenn: Well, a couple of reasons. One, I knew that these owners that came seemed like they had a lot of money, in my mind. I assume that they were pretty rich people. They drove fancy cars and stuff and from my perspective they were wealthy. But the other one is I realized that when I got really good at property management and I increased the value of that apartment community, that owner would eventually sell that property and he would take his money and run and I would get a thank you and he would get a lot of money. And they always said, "You know, Glenn we really appreciate your property management efforts. You've done very well for us and thank you very much."  So I got a lot of thank yous, not a lot of dollars and you know, that was a motivation for me. It's like someday I wish I could trade that value for myself. My wife always encouraged me. She's like, "You know, you're really good at making other people a lot of money. Someday, you got to do that for yourself." And so that was motivation too. You get really good at Property Management, you should maybe be the owner but I didn't have any money.   James: But you have that knowledge on how to increase the NOI, which is the most important, I would say. Having a lot of money and buying assets if you do not know how to increase the NOI from the ground up, you're maybe just half-blindfolded.   Glenn: Yeah, and I think you know what made me successful later in life, is that experience and the knowledge that I had from the ground up. It gave me great insight in helping me find good deals that I could fix if they're broken. And then, later in my career about six years ago, I started to buy my own. And I remember having to raise over a million dollars on my first deal and when people realize that you have experience, you know what you're talking about and you came from the ground up, they're more likely to invest with you than they would be with somebody who has no experience,19:48inaudible]  just go syndicate deal with no experience. So, the experience really paid off in the end for me.  James: Yeah, I'm sure it's paying off right now itself. So I want to go into some of the secrets in Property Management because you are the insider. Glenn: Yeah, that's right. James: Because I mean, for me, my wife does a lot of property management and just because of the knowledge that we have in asking questions to our employees and all the employes doesn't really tell us stories. They don't tell us like it takes five days to make ready or two to three weeks to make ready and all that kind of thing. I mean, property management is a people business, there's a lot of detailed things happening inside the property management itself. And if you do not know the details, people are just going to take you for a ride. So, let's go into the details. So how would you know a leasing agent is not a good leasing agent.   Glenn: So great question, James. There are indicators that are quite obvious, but then there's some that you kind of have to peel the onion back a little bit to figure out. The first indicator is if your occupancy is struggling, where all your competitors are saying, in the 90s and your property is like in the 80s and you have enough product that's already made ready, and it's priced correctly, but gosh, people are just not leasing so that could be an indicator.  You know, there are remedies to that. You can hire a secret shopper that will come and pretend to be a renter and they will give that leasing agent an evaluation.  James: And what does the secret shopper do? Glenn: They pretend like they are an average person coming to rent an apartment. You know, they give a name, they go on a tour and they kind of evaluate whether or not the leasing agent was able to connect with them as a renter if they took them on a tour of the apartment. Mostly if they followed up to say, "You know, are you still interested in renting?" You know, some leasing agents never follow up. Some agents aren't able to connect with people like emotionally connect with people because you know renting an apartment home it's an emotional decision. There's apartments everywhere. So the only thing that makes your apartment may be different than your competitors' apartment, maybe that leasing agent.  So if the indicators are there, there are remedies but sometimes you just got to peel the onion back and what I mean by that is you just need to listen to how they talk to people. You need to get feedback from the residents. As an owner, you can always send out a little flyer or a little questionnaire. You know, we get what's called the Move-in Report, where it talks about who moved in, in the last 30 days. I look at those moving reports to see if they've hit the targets on the rent and stuff, but you can send a little questionnaire or you could even call them on the phone, as the owner, and say, "Tell me about your experience from the time you moved in till now." And that'll give you a lot of insight.  The other thing is the closing ratio. There are averages in our industry about if 10 people apply, what percent actually come back and sign a lease and move in? And that percentage could be anywhere from 30 to 40 percent of the people come back. Now, granted some of those get denied because of credit, criminal activity or addictions and we expect that. But if some leasing agent has a closing ratio of 10% or 15%, you'll want to stop and say there's a problem here because that's below the industry average. And where do you find those industry average? Well, you got to talk to people in the industry. They're not widely publicized on closing ratios but that information is readily available. You can get it through the apartment association. You can get it through people who own and operate apartments and you can just ask, network with people.  James: Yeah, and what do you do if the leasing agent gives reason saying that our apartment is priced too high? Glenn: Well, there's your 'trust but verify'; she could be right, you know, I mean if they have a low closing ratio and you as the owner said, "Hey, we renovated this unit and I know we can get a thousand dollars for these two bedroom units." And all your competitors and your leasing agent saying, "Yeah, but all my competitors are at 950 to 900 and you want 1000." If you argue with the leasing agent say, "But I spent so much money and I need to get a thousand out of this deal." You know, she's going to get frustrated and so are you. But if I were you, I'd go verify that. If the leasing agent is saying all your competitors are renting their two bedrooms at 950 and she's right, you as the owner better eat some humble pie and take her word for it. And when you get the facts verified, you better adjust your price because you may lose a good leasing agent because you're a bad owner.  James: Correct. Yeah, so it's important that because sometimes as owners. We might hear a certain performer on rents and that may not be true because you are doing it pre-closing, you know. Only when the rubber meets the road then you really know whether whatever you projected in your performer is being able to be captured on the ground. All right, and it's very skill to identify [25:41crosstalk and unintelligible]  Glenn:  That's correct. I had a boss of mine one time, he was the CEO of a company and he said this to me one time. He said, "You know if it comes down to your opinion versus my opinion, my opinion wins because I'm the owner."   He says, "But if it comes down to my opinion versus your facts and your facts are right, it doesn't really matter what my opinion is, the facts always tell the truth." That's why we do Market surveys. That's why we figure out where competitors occupancy is. And if you're a good owner, you'll realize that sometimes the information is right in front of your face talking to you and you're just not willing to listen.  James: Correct. There's a lot of data that we can use to really see whether I priced it correctly or not. Such as, how many people are applying, how many vacancies you had for that certain configuration and all that, right? Glenn: Yeah. Yeah. James: And how do you select a good property manager?  Glenn: That's a tough one. That's a really tough one. Gosh, you know I have, in my career, when I was an asset manager for Pacific property company and I think we had like 8,000 units and we had hired two or three different property management companies that did fee management for us as an owner and I was an asset manager. But some of those were some big name brand management companies that had all the bells and whistles but you know what it came down to James? It came down to two individuals, how well did that regional manager get along with that property manager and how often is that regional giving support?              If they are pretty well connected and they're good communicators, chances are all the other things will fall into place. The bills get paid on time and you know, if the manager needs some overrides or permission to the regional and they're on the same page and readily available, that property will flow better. Sometimes I've seen that a regional manager may have 9 10 11 or even 12 Assets in their portfolio. How often can an effective Regional go visit 12 Assets in a week or a month or two months? Not very often. They're going to be spread so thin.             The trick is that I know a lot of fee management companies are moving away from this but their profitability increases because they get a management fee increases when they have one fixed cost of a regional manager spread out over many assets. So from the property managers company's perspective, they may give that Regional a big portfolio to cover their salary. You, as the owner, want that portfolio to be small because you want their undivided attention, you know, so that's a good question you can ask a management company. Is how many assets are in that regional manager's portfolio and how often that manager works with your property manager on site. Those are two key elements.  And of course, the other big one is the back office. How often are they producing your financial packages and are they reconciling every month and do they catch the bounced checks fast enough? The back office, people don't really jump into as an owner, they just look at what's presented to them on the front end. So there's lots of good bells and whistles.  James: Very interesting. So what is the good ratio for regional versus property that they manage? Glenn: Yeah. That's a great question. I think an effective regional manager shouldn't have more than seven or eight assets in their portfolio. That number can go up to 9 or 10 if all those properties are maybe smaller or they've got one manager that oversees two or three that helps or they're all stabilized. They are all stabilized in their the assets and they're all doing very well with the regional, then they could then handle more.             But if the regional manager has a new lease up or repositioning or undergoing a renovation or you're trying to change the demographic a little bit, those are very, very time-consuming. And if that's the case, you don't want them to have more than five in their portfolio.  So there's a big range. Variables are stabilized in the size and then the complexity of the assets that are in the portfolio. James: Yeah, yeah, that's a very interesting feedback on the regional because as you know, and I know is that property management is a business of issues, daily issues which a lot of asset managers don't want to touch. They say that is a thankless job, we do not want to touch it and all that. But how important do you think Property Management, in terms of the efficiency or the NOI optimization of a multi-family? Glenn: Again, it comes down to that regional manager and the property manager. You know, I guess the fixed costs are you know, some property managers charge you more, a larger percentage of the management fee. That's a cost that's going to affect your NOI. The property management company has to have some buying power. Hopefully, they buy so many carpets and so much paint that they get significant discounts on the product that they purchase and they pass that right along to you as the owner, that would be a great benefit.  You know, if you're paying, call it $10 a yard for carpet installed and the property management company can get it done for eight or nine, that's pretty significant overall your Capex. So all those are little variables that you need to kind of ask what kind of benefit you get as the owner. And some of them are the opposite. They're very expensive, some of them pay for very expensive software for the property management and they pass it right along to you the owner and you're, "Gosh, this is expensive every month." And then you start asking about this fee and that fee and there's like an accounting fee on top of the property management fee. They charge you a fee for processing your own payroll and like, "Why am I paying you to process my payroll? Isn't that part of the services?"  And they're like, "Oh, no that's an extra."  So, you know, gosh darn, you just got to dive into it, to be honest with you. That's a good question. It's really complicated. Call me and we'll talk offline. James: Yeah. That's good. Glenn: I used to be a property management company,[32:56crosstalk] and I know there are areas that the management company wants to make money on. James: Correct. Correct.  Glenn: It doesn't always benefit the owner. It benefits the management company. James: Yes, but I mean we have to understand property management is also a lot of work and they are the backbone of your operation. So choosing the right property management and how the profit centers and all that is how everybody... Glenn: Yeah. James if you step back and you realize sometimes it's worth paying those little fees to these property management companies if they're really good at what they do. Because if you step back, they're really good at what they do, they're going to make you Millions on your asset. if they're not very good at what they do, they're going to lose you Millions on your asset. And here's the key; sometimes they just make excuses on why they're poor performers. And I struggled with a very large management company at 30,000 units. I owned a 650 unit apartment complex up in Dallas and my occupancy was going down and down and down and the bad debt was going up and up and up and I'm like, "What the world is going on here?"  And they said, "Well, the market, the sub-market is getting worse."  And I scratch my head and I said, "Well, how could that be? Because our competitors are 94 and you're like 81."  They're like, "Well, that's because they have just filled it up with junk people."  And I'm like, "I talked to the owner of that one and they said their delinquencies are only like two and a half percent. You guys are like seven. I mean that doesn't an add up either."  So what's really going on and they were a mess. They were going through changes up above and they had two Regionals that quit because of leadership and the property manager had quit because she didn't like the management company and my 650 unit was struggling financially now after it had just had its best year. Her name was Letty, she was the property manager for us for a year year and a half. When Letty left, everything unraveled and I ended up having to terminate that management contract and I gave it to a different management company and they were very successful. And they turned it all around and I ended up selling that complex about a year and a half after the new property management took over. And guess what? They out-performed all of a sudden and it was the same submarket, it was the same community. So all the excuses the previous management company gave me was just a bunch of BS.  James: Yeah. Yeah. It takes a lot of leadership to really fire property management because as an asset manager who just know asset management your hands are tied. You can listen to one excuse this month and next month, I'm going to give you the same excuses. But at what point do you make that call saying that, okay, these guys are not good? So it's very hard for you to make that call if you do not know the details and how to read the financials; as you say, you know the owner on the comps, right? Glenn: Yeah. James: But not everybody knows the owners. So, how do they find out? It could be very well true that if [36:07inaudible] so do you have some tips on how to identify bad property management? One point should be fine.  Glenn: I know a couple of them by name.  James: We don't need names.  Glenn: I can't say it on the podcast; call me. How do you identify? Here's one indicator. There's a lot of turnover for some key people. You know if the bookkeepers are quitting and the regional managers are quitting and the property managers are quitting; if you can't have access to interview all those people and talk to them about why they're quitting, you're losing out on an opportunity, but that will tell you, that's an indicator. By nature, I think we turn over about 30 percent of the site people a year, you know. One of the indicators that I chart so if you're up to 40 50 percent of your site people move, including your maintenance guys and releasing agent, but if you're up above 30%, there's a problem. Either with the leadership or how it functions or they just can't get enough training. There's something going on because people don't just walk away from their jobs. And the way to indicate a good one, management company, is if they've got long-term employees that stay with them long term over and over and over again. So there are some indicators there.  And your intuition; let me just address that. If for some reason a property management company is telling you excuses over and over and over again and in your mind, it doesn't add up but your guts telling you something's not right here, I would say trust your intuition because there's probably something not right there. James: Got it. Got it. Let's go back to, as you said, the most important person in the whole pipeline for an owner, asset manager. So you have leasing agent, you have property manager, you have Regional and you have the property management leadership. So you said, if I remember correctly, Regional is the most important on how they communicate and... Glenn: The regional and the property manager those two together.  James: So how do you identify the qualities of a good regional?  Glenn: Yeah, you know the good regionals, you can always tell if they're pretty effective because you can ask them a question about, you know, call it turnover expenses or you know, we notice this big expense for HVAC, you know that Regional says, "You know what? I noticed that too because the manager had booked it up in the operating expenses and I reclassify it to Capex."  And if the regional knows what's going on, how the property is spending their money and where they're booking it and she just knows it or he knows it right off the bat, they're on it, and they are on it and you should be very grateful that they're watching your asset and your financials pretty effectively.  Now if you ask a regional manager, 'Hey, what's going on? Why did it go up?"  And she's like, "I've no idea. Let me get back with you."  And you're like, "okay, get back to me, let’s talk. " And she never he never gets back with you and you send them another email says, "You know, what did you find out? I mean, our NOI took a dip 10 grand this month and it's been pretty consistent, what's going on?"  If you have to follow more than one or two times, dude, you've got a problem. They're not looking at your bottom line. They're not talking to their manager and they're certainly not watching your asset.  James: Got it. Got it. Okay. It's very interesting. Let's go to a bit more personal side. Is there any moment in your whole career when you started in real estate up to now, is there a proud moment that you always remember, you're going to remember that proud moment for your whole life? Glenn: That's a good question. You should have given me some lead time on that. James: I'm really proud that I did that. It could be anything.  Glenn: You know, I think part of it is a feeling of satisfaction that I get. You know when we syndicated deals, when we bring investors together, when we take that money that they've trusted us with and we apply it to the apartment complex and we do what we said we were going to do. We renovate the office and we raise the rents. And then, down the road, you step back and you look at the community and I go, "Wow! This actually looks better than it did when we buy it." And then it feels better and our delinquencies are going down. It's almost like your baby. It's like your kid, your little offspring. Like I'm so proud of this community.  And then you sell that and you give all the investors back their money and they call you on the phone, "Glenn, dude, I'm so happy. You actually did what you said you were gonna do and did better than we expected." To be honest with you, I get so much satisfaction out of that and I like making other people money, you know. And when that happens, they don't mind sharing the profits with me. And now, I'm making money so it's not always about the money, but it's about doing what you said you were going to do and doing it well and kind of being the best in the industry. Not all deals have gone has planned, not all deals have been successful and those are tough pills to swallow but I think, for the most part, my greatest in my career is seeing the magic that we work and executing the plan, I love that. And then there is one other if you don't mind me sharing? James: Sure, absolutely. Glenn: There's a gentleman that was a maintenance guy that would come and talk about if you spend this, you know, I think we need more rent. If you fix this over here and you know, I mean really, I wouldn't do anything on the one bedrooms because we have so many of them we can't even random, you know, but we can make a lot more than that. I took that maintenance guy and I said, "Have you ever thought about being a property manager?" He's like, "No way, there's no way; that's the last job I want."  I'm like, "But you think like a property manager."  And this is just a deal here at Austin that I was managing as a fee manager and I convinced him; I said, "Dude, you could do this."             And he did. He got out of his comfort zone and we moved him from outside to inside and he was the same way. He was so effective, I love the way he processed. And his name is Louis and Louis was a very good manager. He had a wife and a child and he was later moonlighting for a company for Best Buy, you know, he was working in the evenings and on weekends and stuff to make ends meet for his family. And we were at lunch one time, talking and I saw what he had done for the community. The occupancy went up, it had stabilized and he was right. We were making more money on the two bedrooms and I told Louis, I said, "Louis, why don't you quit? How much are you making at Best Buy a month?"  He said, "I get an extra eight or nine hundred dollars a month by working kind of part-time, on the weekends." And I said, "If you were able to just devote more time to the community, do you think you can make it more money?" He said, "I just can't afford to not."  So I told him, I said, "Let me raise your pay by a thousand dollars a month if you quit that job."   And I said, "Then, you could be a better husband. You could be a better father to your kid and you won't be so stressed. You don't have to work every single weekend because you're going to get burned out, you're going to get sick and then you're eventually going to quit."  And he's a grown man, he just started crying. Right there at lunch, it was kind of uncomfortable. He's like, "Why would you do that for me?"  I said, "Because I see in you great things, Louis."  And I said, "You should be a better dad and a better father to your child. If you're gone all the time, you're going to look back and you're going to say it wasn't worth it."  So the community had benefited so much from this guy, it could afford to give him a $12,000 a year raise and it would have zero effect on the properties bottom line because he had increased in a while. And he stood up with tears in his eyes and he's like, "I'm gonna go give notice."  I said, "And I'm gonna raise your pay this afternoon." And he gave me a big hug, and we've been friends ever since. He's very successful. But that was a proud moment where I identified that it's not always just about the money. It's also about being a good dad, a good husband and have less stress in your life. And sometimes we could take real estate and make dreams happen for people. Now, that was a good moment in my life. You know, it wasn't that long ago.  James: It's very fulfilling when you impact people's life. I mean you can make money in many ways. Glenn: That's right. James: You make a few million dollars and then you forget about it and you give it to investors and you forget about it. But when you impact someone it follows you throughout your life and you remember that's a big impact, you can't really put a monetary value. Glenn: Yeah. James:  And I've had REIT investors who when I paid them back through refi, they were like happy, "Oh, okay. I really needed this money and you gave it to me." It was just like a mind-blowing thing to me because I didn't really think that they really need that money. I mean, some people just invest hundreds of thousands of dollars and we give, you know, a hundred thousand back to them. They are like, "Wow! It's like I needed this money and you gave it to me. I'm so happy." So yeah, it's very fulfilling. Glenn: Fulfilling, yeah. That's neat. Yeah.  James: So do you have any secret sauce for your success? Glenn: Do the right thing, in the right place at the right time, little bit of luck. I do a lot of praying, help from above and just do the right thing. You know, I mean, I've gone through business relationship changes with business partners because we're not always aligned with doing the right thing and I say if you really want to be successful, just always do the right thing and what comes around goes around. James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one thing that I want to share with the audience is that I know about you and another buyer which is part of our same masterminds when you had details of that property which had a chiller system when it was down like one or two weeks before closing. And you had a choice whether you want to disclose it to the buyer or not and you made the choice of disclosing it, which is I think it's absolutely, the right thing to do. [47:15unintelligible]  Glenn: Not only did I disclose it, James, I also bought the buyer a new Chiller.  James: Absolutely. Glenn: He was already passed his due diligence, he was closing on it. He couldn't come back and re-trade me, his earnest money was more than a chiller so I could have just said it is what it is. I could have put a bandaid on it. But this is a small world we live in. And I've had business partners that have said, "Well, actually you don't have to tell them that kind of stuff." And inside my heart, I think I do. So I bought the guy a new chiller and he heard about that and he picked up the phone and he called me directly.  A lot of times the buyers and the sellers don't always talk to each other because they have brokers that represent them and then they have attorneys that work stuff out. But he called me on the phone. He's like, "I just want to say, thank you."  And I said, "You're welcome."  And I said, "You know, it's a small world and I know how I would feel if the roles were reversed."  And I was buying an apartment complex and I got stuck with a pretty big bill and somebody had knowledge of it because that actually happened to me. I bought Oaks Creek up in Dallas, a 280 unit deal and after due diligence and even after you know, we should have caught it but we didn't, there was a couple of buildings that had questionable foundation issues and my Engineers didn't catch me with my contractors.  Later I found out that the owner knew about it, the seller and I said, "Why didn't you tell me I could have just budgeted for it and fix it? Now, I've got to figure out how to scramble to pay for it because it's not on my rehab budget." He said, "Gosh, I just didn't feel like it was you know, I didn't want to tell you because I don't want you to re-trade me."  I'm like, "Yeah, I wouldn't have re-traded you. I just wish you'd have told me because I could have raised a little extra money to fix it." Anyway, just what comes around goes around. Secret Sauce, do the right thing. You also have to analyze your numbers. With 30 years of experience, when I come across deals today, I will jump in and I will verify rents, I'll verify rehab, I'll look at how we're going to finance it and some sponsors like me or you, we don't do this but some people do and they just convince themselves that it's still a good deal even though the numbers don't say so or like, "Oh, my guts telling me that we're gonna make a ton of money." "Uuuh, I don't know, man. The comps suggest that you're not."  And like, "Well, the taxes aren't really going to go up that high." I'm like, "Yeah, it's going to go up pretty [49:54inaudible]  and so the insurance."  So people convince themselves that you know, not to listen to reality. Well, Secret Sauce, listen to reality, be honest with yourself. Listen, the numbers don't lie. You might lie to yourself but the numbers aren't gonna lie to you if you do your homework.  James: It's so hard nowadays, I think for newbies, especially, who want to get started. I mean, they've been looking for deals for many, many months, sometimes years and they feel so frustrated because the market is good and everybody's a champion. A bull market, everybody's making money. Like I need to get jumping in to buy something. And even though they find the numbers are not really strong, I mean, you have to make a lot of aggressive assumptions. And then, they just go ahead and do it. It's very hard for them. I can understand that but it is what it is. I mean, real estate is not forgiving in a downturn.  We have been in an upturn for the past nine years and a lot of mistakes has been [50:52inaudible] Glenn: Well, here's a little Golden Nugget for our current environment. So interest rates are down. I believe they were kind of reaching the top. Everybody talks about that. Well, one way to mitigate your risk is when you buy a deal in today's market and here's what I'm doing is I actually raise extra money for my investors for a rainy day fund. It's not applied to anything whatsoever. It's just going to sit in the checking account as an emergency. Well, you know, you kind of have to pay some preferred return sometimes or a return to investors for all that extra money, but I'm doing that in my own personal acquisitions just so that I don't ever have to go back into a cash call to an investor and I know things will come up that I can't foresee and the market is gonna take a couple bumps. Well, I'm preparing for that now so, FYI. James: Got it. Very good tips over there. What is the advice for newbies who want to be like you? Glenn: Yeah. Be better than me. I think it's important for people that want to get in the industry to actually latch on and become friends with and partner with somebody that's done it before. It doesn't mean you have to form a company together and you don't have to be long-term, but at least do one deal with somebody who's done it over and over again. You're going to learn so much just by having a mentor friend on one transaction. And once you've been through a full cycle or something with somebody holding your hand and don't be afraid about giving up some of your money to that person or the profits, you know, you will get much more out of the education and the experience and then you can go do it on your own without those people after you've done it once or twice.  Some people like to just jump in and say I can do this. That's my advice, I would do that. James: Got it. Got it. This is a very exciting and inspiring advice. Let me go to one last question before I let you go, Glen. Why do you do what you are doing on a daily basis?  Glenn: Oh, man. It doesn't feel like work James. I kind of work and I look the deals and I just love it. I mean, it doesn't feel like work and I could have been a hospital administrator that feel like work. I didn't want to do that for the rest of my life. For some reason, I'm just attracted to this and I get to pick and choose who I do business with. I get to can pick and choose which brokers I like to do business with. I get to put together a team of people that I like to do business with. Not just people in the office but partners that I do business with; investors, lenders, I get to pick all that and you can do business with whoever you want to do business with and you can be kind of in control of your own destiny and it's fun. That's why I do what I do, James.  James: Awesome. Awesome. Glenn:  My question is James, why do you do what you do?   James: I that a real question? Glenn: Yeah, It's a real question. James:  Actually, no one has ever asked me that question when I ask that question but that's a really good question. I do what I do because I'm trying to make a big impact in the world.  So real estate is just a tool for me. I mean, basically, my reason would be how I impact. I mean, I love impacting other people's life. I mean, you say it, you made an impact to those employees lives and we make, as real estate entrepreneurs, we make impacts into many people's lives, into the communities lives, into our employees' lives. We also give a lot of donations out. And how do I impact orphans, kids who are orphans in the third world country and we pay a lot of money for their education and all that. So impacting their lives and it gives you fulfillment. I mean that's why I do what I do.  Glenn: I love it. I love it. You ask me hard questions. I get asked you one at the very end. You want to make a difference in the world, I think it's awesome.  James: Yeah, yeah. As I said you can make money and you can forget about how much you made after a few years but impacting people's lives, when you really see that you've touched someone's life in a big way that comes with you until you die so that's important. Glenn: James, you're a good man.  James: Thank you. Glenn: You're putting together some cool deals, you're writing a book and you invite people like me to come on your show and share our story and I just think you're a pretty cool guy, man. Thank you. James: Thank you. Yeah, why not tell our audience and listeners, how to get hold of you, how to get in touch with you.  Glenn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. So my phone number... James: You're really gonna give your phone number? Glenn: Yeah. 5 1 2 9 3 7 5 9 6 4 and I have an email address glenn@obsidiancapitalco.com  And you can also go to the website, we're there too.  James: Thank you very much, Glenn, for being on the show and sharing all your awesome tips. We have so much value in terms of property management, in terms of your personal thought process and that's what I want to get out of the podcast because sometimes, as I said, it's not only making money it's also what's behind the person. That's why I do this podcast.  Glenn: To make a difference in the world. Thanks, James. James: Exactly. Thank you very much. Talk to you soon.  Glenn: Ok.  James: Bye.

James: Hey listeners, this is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. Achieve Wealth Podcast focuses on value at real estate investing across different commercial asset class and we focus on interviewing a lot of operators so that you know, I can learn and you can learn as well. So today I have Omar Khan who has been on many podcasts but I would like to go into a lot more details into is underwriting and market analysis that he has. So Omar is a CFA, has more than 10 years investing across real estate and commodities. He has experience in the MNA transaction worth 3.7 billion, Syndicated Lodge a multi-million deal across the U.S. and he recently closed a hundred thirty plus something units in Jacksonville, Florida. Hey Omar, welcome to the show.  Omar: Hey, thank you James. I'm just trying to work hard to get to your level man. One of these days.  James: That's good. That's a compliment. Thank you Omar. So why not you tell our audience anything that I would have missed out about you and your credibility. Omar: I think you did a good job. If I open my mouth my credibility might go down.  James: Yes, that's good. That's good. So let's go a bit more details. So you live in Dallas, right? I think you're, I mean if I've listened to you on other podcasts and we have talked before the show you came from Canada to Dallas and you bought I think you have been looking for deals for some time right now. And you recently bought in Jacksonville. Can you tell about the whole flow in a quick summary?  Omar: Oh, yes. Well the quick summary is man that you know, when you're competing against people who's operating strategy is a hope and a prayer, you have to look [inaudible01:54] Right?  James: Absolutely.  Omar: I mean, and hey just to give you a full disclosure yesterday there was actually a smaller deal in Dallas. It's about a hundred and twenty something units. And I mean we were coming in at 10-point some million dollars. And just to get into best and final people were paying a million dollars more than that, and I'm not talking just a million dollars more than I was trying to be cheap. The point was, at a million dollar more than that there is freaking no way you could hit your numbers, like mid teens that are already 10% cash-on-cash. Like literally, they would have to find a gold mine right underneath their apartment. So my point is it's kind of hard man. But what are you going to do about it? Right?  James: Yes. Yes. Omar: Just have to keep looking. You have to keep finding. You have to keep being respectful of Brokers' times. Get back to them. You just keep doing the stuff. I mean you would do it every day pretty much.  James: Yes. Yes. I just think that there's so much capital flow out there. They are a lot of people who expect less, lower less return. Like you say you are expecting mid teen IRR, there could be someone there out there expecting 10 percent IRR and they could be the one who's paying that $1,000,000. Right? And maybe the underwriting is completely wrong, right? Compared to-- I wouldn't say underwriting is wrong. I mean, I think a lot of people-- Omar: Well you can say that James you don't have to be a nice person. You can say it.  James: I'm just saying that everybody thinks, I mean they absolutely they could be underwriting wrong, too or they may be going over aggressively on the rent growth assumption or property tax growth assumption compared to what you have. At the same time they could have a much lower expectation on-- Omar: Yes. I mean let's hope that's the case because if they have a higher expectation man, they're going to crash and burn. James: Absolutely. Omar: I hope, I really hope they have a low expectation.  James: Yes. Yes. I did look at a chart recently from Marcus and Millichap the for Texas City where they show us how that's like a San Antonio, Austin, Dallas and Houston and if you look at Dallas, you know, the amount of acceleration in terms of growth is huge, right? And then suddenly it's coming down. I mean all markets are coming down slightly right now, but I'm just hopefully, you know, you can see that growth to continue in all this strong market. Omar: No, no, don't get me wrong, when I said somebody paid more than 1 million just to get into best and final, that has no merits on, that is not a comment on the state of the Dallas Market. I personally feel Dallas is a fantastic Market. Texas overall, all the big four cities that you mentioned are fantastic but my point is there is nothing, no asset in the world that is so great that you can pay an infinite price for it. And there's nothing so bad in the world that if it wasn't for a cheap enough price, you wouldn't want to buy it. James: Correct, correct.  Omar: I mean that that's what I meant. I didn't mean it was a comment on the state of the market.  James: Got it. Got it. So let's come to your search outside of the Texas market, right? So how did you choose, how did you go to Jacksonville?  Omar: Well, number one the deal is I didn't want to go to a smaller city. I'm not one of those guys, you know in search of [inaudible05:11] I find everybody every time somebody tells me I'm looking for a higher cap rate, I was like, why do you like to get shot every time you go to the apartment building? You want to go to the ghetto? Do you want somebody to stab you in the stomach? Is that because that's-- James: That's a lot of deals with a higher cap rate. Omar: Yes. There's a lot because I was like man, I can find you a lot of deals with really high cap rates.  James: Yes. Omar: But you might get stabbed. Right?  James: And they are set class 2 which has higher cap rate.  Omar: Oh, yes, yes, yes.  James: So I think people just do not know what a cap rate means or how-- Omar: Yes and people you know, all these gurus tell you today, I mean let's not even get into that right. So specifically for us like I wanted to stand at least a secondary, tertiary market [inaudible 05:48] I mean like, any City over at least eight, nine hundred thousand at least a million, somewhere in that range, right?  James: Okay. Omar: And specifically look, after Texas it was really Florida. Because look, you could do the whole Atlanta thing. I personally, I love Atlanta but it's a toss-up between Atlanta and say either of the three metros in Florida or Jackson. Lords in Central Florida, Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando. You know based on my [inaudible06:11] experience I was doing this stuff portfolio management anyways, I kind of ran smaller factor model for all the cities where I took in different sort of factors about 30 different factors. And then you know, you kind of just have to do all the site tours and property visits to make all those relationships. And what I see across the board was, I mean Tampa has a great Market, but for the same quality product for the same demographic of tenant, for the same say rent level, Tampa was 20 to 25% more expensive on a per pound basis.  James: Okay. Omar: Let's say a Jacksonville, right? Orlando is kind of in the middle where the good deals were really expensive or rather the good areas were a bit too dear for us and the bad areas were nicely priced and everybody then tells you, "Oh it's Florida." right? James: No, no. Omar: But what they don't tell you is there's good and bad parts of Florida-- James: There's submarket. Yes Yes. Omar: Right? So you got to go submarket by submarket. And then lastly what we were basically seeing in Jacksonville was, it was very much a market which like for instance in Atlanta and seeing parts of say Orlando and Tampa, you can have to go block by block street by street. But if you're on the wrong side of the street, man you are screwed, pretty much. James: Absolutely. Omar: But Jacksonville to a certain degree, obviously not always, was very similar to Dallas in the sense that there is good areas and then there's a gradual shift into a not as a [inaudible07:29] Right? So basically what you kind of had to do was name the submarket properly and if you had a higher chance of success than for instance [inaudible07:38] right down to the street corner, right? And then like I said the deals we were seeing, the numbers just made more sense in Jacksonville for the same level of demographic, for the same type of tenant, for the same income level, for the same vintage, for the same type of construction. So Jacksonville, you know, we started making relationships in all the markets but Jacksonville is where we got the best bang for our buck and that's how we moved in.  James: Okay. So I just want to give some education to the listener. So as what Omar and I were talking about, not the whole city that you are listening to is hot, right. So, for example, you have to really look at the human capital growth in certain parts of the city, right? So for example in Dallas, not everywhere Dallas is the best area to invest. You may have got a deal in Dallas but are you buying in it in a place where there's a lot of growth happening? Right? Like for example, North Dallas is a lot of growth, right? Compared to South Dallas, right? In Atlanta that's I-20 that runs in between Atlanta and there's a difference between, you cross the I-20 is much, you know a lot of price per pound or price per door. It's like a hundred over door and below Atlanta is slightly lower, right? So it's growing, but it may grow it may not grow. I mean right now the market is hot, everything grows. So you can buy anywhere and make money and you can claim that, hey I'm making money, but as I say market is-- Omar: [inaudible09:03] repeatable [inaudible09:04] By the way I look at it, is hey is this strategy repeatable? Can I just rinse and repeat this over and over and over? James: Correct. Correct. I mean it depends on sponsor's cases. While some sponsors will buy because price per dollar is cheap, right? But do they look at the back end of it when the market turns, right? Some sponsors will be very very scared to buy that kind of deal because we always think about, what happens when the market turns, right? So. Omar: Yes, James and the other thing that I've seen is that, look, obviously, we're not buying the most highest quality product. James: Correct. Omar: But what I've seen is a lot of times when people focus on price per unit, say I will go for the cheapest price per unit. Well, there's a reason why it's cheap because you know, there's a reason why Suzuki is cheaper than a Mercedes. Now, I'm not saying you have to go buy a Mercedes because sometimes you only need to buy a Suzuki. Right? I mean that's the way it is, but you got to have to be cognizant that just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's more valuable and just because something is more expensive doesn't mean it's less than.  James: Correct. Correct. Correct. And price per door is one I think one of the most flawed metrics that people are talking about. Price per door and also how many doors do people own? Omar: And also cap rate, man. [inaudible 10:09]  James: Cap rate, price per door and-- Omar: How many doors have you got? James: How many doors do you have? Three metrics is so popular, there is so much marketing happening based on these three metrics. I mean for me you can take it and throw it into the trash paper, right? Omar: The way I look at it is I would much rather have one or two really nice things, as opposed to 10 really crappy things.  James: Correct. Correct. Correct. Like I don't mind buying a deal in Austin for a hundred a door compared to buying a same deal in a strong Market in another-- like for example, North Atlanta, right? I would rather buy it in Austin. It's just different market, right? So. Absolutely different. So price per door, number of doors and cap rate, especially entry cap rate, right? I went back and cap rate you can't really predict, right? So it's a bit hard to really predict all that. But that's-- Omar: Yes but my point is with all of these things you have, and when people tell me cap rate I'm like, look, are you buying stabilized properties? Because that's the only time you can apply this. James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Otherwise, what you really going to have to look at is how much upside do I have because at the end of the day, you know this better than I do. Regardless of what somebody says, what somebody does, everything is valued on [inaudible11:15] James: Correct. Omar: Pretty much. You can say it's a low cap rate and the broker will tell you, well yes the guy down the street bought it for a hundred and fifty thousand a unit so you got to pay me a hundred fifty, right? And then that's the end of the conversation.  James: Yes. Omar: Literally, I mean that is the end of the conversation, right? What are you going to do about it?  James: Yes. Correct. I mean the Brokers they have a fiduciary responsibility to market their product as much as possible, but I think it's our responsibility as Sponsor to really underwrite that deal to make sure that-- Omar: Oh yes. James: --what is the true potential. Omar: And look, to be honest with you sometimes the deal, that is say a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a unit might actually be a better deal-- James: Oh absolutely. Omar: [inaudible 11:51] fifty thousand dollars a unit. I mean, you don't know till you run the numbers. James: Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely. I've seen deals which I know a hundred sixty a door and still have much better deal than something that you know, I can buy for 50 a door, right? So. You have to underwrite all deals. There's no such thing as cap rate or no, such thing as price per door. I mean you can use price per door to a certain level.  Omar: [inaudible 12:15] in this market what is the price per door? That's the extent of what you might potentially say, in the submarket.  James: Correct. Omar: All the comps are trading at 75,000 a door. Why is this at 95 a door?  James: Yes. Omar: That's it.  James: I like to look at price per door divided by net square, rentable square footage because that would neutralize all measurements. Omar: Yes, see, you know we had a little back and forth on this, I was talking to my Analyst on this but my point is that I would understand [inaudible 12:46] at least to my mind. Okay. I'm not, because I know a lot of Brokers use it.  James: Sure. Omar: In my mind that would apply to say, Commercial and Industrial properties more. But any time I've gone to buy or say rent an apartment complex, I never really go and say like, hmm the rent is $800. It's 800 square feet. Hmm on a per square foot basis. I'm getting one dollar and then I go-- James: No, no, no, I'm not talking about that measurement. I'm talking about price per door divided by square footage rentable because that would neutralize between you have like whether you have a lot of smaller units, or whether you have a larger unit and you have to look-- but you have to plot it based on location. Right? So. Omar: Yes, so you know as you get into those sort of issues right? Well, is it worth more than that corner?  James: Yes. Yes. You're right. Yes. You have to still do rent comes and analyze it.  Omar: Yes. James: So let's all-- Omar: I mean look, I get it, especially I think it works if you know one or two submarkets really well. Then you can really-- James: Correct. Correct. That's like my market I know price because I know the market pretty well. I just ask you this information, just tell me price per door. How much average square feet on the units and then I can tell you very quickly because I know the market pretty well. Omar: Because you know your Market, because you already know all the rents. You already know [crosstalk13:57] James: [crosstalk13:57] You have to know the rent. I said you have to build that database in your mind, on your spreadsheet to really underwrite things very quickly. So that's good. So let's go back to Jacksonville, right? So you looked-- what are the top three things that you look at when you chose Jacksonville at a high level in terms of like the macroeconomic indicators? Omar: Oh see, I wasn't necessarily just looking at Jackson. What I did is I did a relative value comparison saying what is the relative value I get in Jacksonville versus a value say I get in a Tampa, Atlanta or in Orlando and how does that relatively compare to each other?  James: So, how do you measure relative-- Omar: What I did is for instance for a similar type of say vintage, right? Say a mid 80s, mid 70s vintage, and for a similar type of median income which was giving me a similar type of rent. Say a median income say 40 Grand a year or 38 to 40 Grand a year resulting in an average rate of about $800. Right? And a vintage say mid 70s, right? Board construction. Now what am I getting, again this is very basic maths, right? This is not I'm not trying to like make up.  James: Yes. Absolutely. Omar: A model out of this, right? So the basic math is, okay what is the price per unit I'm getting in say, what I have a certain crime rating, I have a certain median income rating and I have a certain amount of growth rating. And by growth I mean not just some market growth, [inaudible 15:21] are Elementary Schools nearby? Are there shopping and amenities nearby? Is Transportation accessible, you know, one or two highways that sort of stuff. Right? So for those types of similar things in specific submarkets, [inaudible 15:33] Jacksonville had three, Tampa had two and Orlando had three and Atlanta had four, right? What is the average price per unit I'm facing for similar type of demographics with a similar type of rent profile? With similar type of growth profile I mean you just plot them on a spreadsheet, right? And with the similar type of basically, you know how they performed after 2008 and when I was looking at that, what I was looking at again, is this precise? No, it's not a crystal ball. But these are just to wrap your head around a certain problem. Right? You have to frame it a certain way.  James: Okay. Omar: And what I was seeing across the board was that it all boils down to when you take these things because at the end of the day, all you're really concerned is what price am I getting this at, right? Once you normalize for all the other things, right? James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Right? And what I was seeing was just generally Jacksonville, the pricing was just like I said compared to Tampa which by the way is a fantastic market, right? But pricing was just 15 to 20% below Tampa. I mean Tampa pricing is just crazy. I mean right now I can look at the flyer and tell you their 60s and mid 70s vintage is going for $130,000 $120,000 a unit in an area where the median income is 38 to 40 Grand. James: Why is that? Omar: I don't know. It's not one of this is that the state Tampa is actually a very good market, okay. Let's be [inaudible 16:47] it's very good market. It's a very hot market now. People are willing to pay money for that. Right? So now maybe I'm not the one paying money for it, but there's obviously enough people out there that are taking that back. So. James: But why is that? Is it because they hope that Tampa is going to grow because-- Omar: Well, yes. Well if Tampa doesn't grow they're all screwed James. James: No, but are they assuming that growth or are they seeing something that we are not seeing? Because, if people are earning 30, 40 thousand median household income and the amount of apartment prices that much, they could be some of the metrics that they are seeing that they think-- Omar: Well, yes. Tampa's growth has been off the charts in the past few years, right? James: Okay. Okay. Omar: So what look-- first of all this is the obvious disclaimer is I don't know what I don't know. Right? So I don't know what everybody else is looking at. Our Tampa's growth has been off the charts, there is a lot of development and redevelopment and all that stuff happening in the wider metro area. So people are underwriting five, six, seven, eight percent growth.  James: Okay. So the growth is being-- Omar: No, the growth is very-- look the growth has been very high so far. James: Okay. Got it. Omar: My underlying assumption is, as I go in with the assumption that the growth must be high but as soon as I get in the growth will go down.  James: But why is that growth? I mean that is specific macroeconomic.  Omar: Oh yes, yes. There's first of all, there's a port there, number one. The port -- James: In Tampa. Okay. You're talking about Jacksonville or Tampa right now? Omar: No, I'm talking Tampa. James: Okay. Omar: Jacksonville also has it, but Tampa also has it, okay. James: Okay. Got it. Got it. Omar: Tampa is also fast becoming, Tampa and Orlando by the way are connected with this, what is it? I to or I for whatever, it's connected by. So they're faster like, you know San Antonio and Austin how their kind of converging like this? James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Tampa and Orlando are sort of converging like this. James: Got it. Got it. Omar: Number one. Number two, they're very diversified employment base, you know all the typical Medical, Government, Finance, Healthcare all of that sort of stuff, right? Logistics this and that. And plus the deal is man, they're also repositioning themselves as a tourist destination and they've been very successful at it. James: Okay.  Omar: Because there's lots to do you know you have a nice beach. So, you know that kind of helps all this, right? Have a nice beach. James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Really nice weather, you know. So they're really positioning it that way and it also helps that you've got Disneyland which is about 90 minutes away from you in Orlando. So you can kind of get some of the acts things while you come to Tampa you enjoy all the stuff here. Because Orlando relative to Tampa is not, I mean outside of Disneyland there's not a lot to do though. But a lot of like nightlife and entertainment and all that.  James: But I also heard from someone saying that like Orlando because it is more of a central location of Florida and because of all the hurricane and people are less worried about hurricane in the central because it you know, it has less impact. Omar: James. James. James: Can you hear me? Omar: When people don't get a hurricane, they are not going to be the people who get the hurricane. Other people get hurricanes. Not us. James: Correct, correct. Omar: But that's not always the case but that's the assumption.  James: Okay. By Tampa is the same case as well? Like, you know because of-- Omar: I don't know exactly how many hurricanes they've got but look man, they seem to be doing fine. I mean if they receive the hurricane they seem to be doing very fine after a hurricane.  James: Okay. Okay. So let's go to Jacksonville, that's a market that did not exist in the map of hotness, of apartment and recently in the past three, four years or maybe more than that. Maybe you can tell me a lot more history than that. Why did it pop out as a good market to invest as an apartment? Omar: Well, because Jackson actually, we talk to the Chamber of Commerce actually about this. And the Chamber of Commerce has done a fantastic job in attracting people, number one. Because first of all Florida has no state income tax. What they've also done is a very low otherwise state a low or minimum tax environment [inaudible20:29] What they've also done is, they reconfigured their whole thing as a logistical Center as well. So they already had the military and people always used to say, oh Tampa, Jacksonville's got a lot of military, but it turns out military's only 11% of the economy now. James: Okay. Okay. Omar: So they've reposition themselves as a leading Health Care Center provider, all that sort of, Mayo Clinic has an offshoot there by the way, just to let you know. It's a number one ranked Hospital.  James: Oh Mayo Clinic. Okay. Okay. We always wonder what is Mayo Clinic, but now you clarified that. Omar: Right? So Mayo Clinic is in Rochester I think. One of my wise colleagues is there actually. Think it's in Rochester Minnesota. It's one of the leading hospitals in the world. James: Okay. Got it. Omar: And now they've actually had an offshoot in basically Jacksonville, which is the number one ranked Hospital in Florida. Plus they've got a lot of good healthcare jobs. They've really repositioned themselves not only as a great Port because the port of Jacksonville is really good and they're really expanding their ports. You know Chicon, the owner of Jacksonville Jaguars, man he's going crazy. He is spending like two or three or four billion dollars redeveloping everything.  James: Got it. Got it. Omar: [inaudible 21:32] what they've done is because of their location, because they're right, I mean Georgia is about 90 minutes away, Southern Georgia, right? And now you have to go into basically, Florida and basically go to the Panhandle. What they've also done is because of their poor, because of their transportation Network and then proximity to the East Coast they repositioned themselves as a Logistical Center as well.  James: Got it. That's what I heard is one of the big drivers for Jacksonville. And I also heard about the opening of Panama Canal has given that option from like importing things from China. It's much, much faster to go through Panama Canal and go through Jacksonville. Omar: Oh, yes. James: Makes it a very good distribution centre. Omar: Because the other board right after Jacksonville in which by the way is also going through a big redevelopment and vitalization is Savannah, Georgia.  James: Okay. Yes. Omar: [inaudible 22:17] big enough and I think Jacksonville does something like, I mean don't quote me on this but like 31% of all the cars that are imported into the U.S. come through the Jacksonville Port. So there's a lot of activity there, right? But they've really done a good job. The Government there has done a fantastic job in attracting all this talent and all these businesses.  James: Okay. Okay. Got it. So let me recap on the process that you came to Jacksonville and going to the submarket. So you looked at a few big hot markets for apartments and looked at similar characteristics for that submarket that you want like for closer to school, in a good location and you look at the deal flow that you are getting from each of these markets. And then you, I mean from your assessment Jacksonville has a good value that you can go and buy right now for that specific demographic of location I guess, right? Omar: Look I love Atlanta as well. I was actually in Atlanta a few weeks ago looking at some, touring some properties. So that doesn't mean Atlanta isn't good or say Tampa or Orlando is good. We were just finding the best deals in Jacksonville.  James: Okay. Okay. So the approach you're taking is like basically looking at the market and shifting it to look for deals in specific locations of submarket where you think there is a good value to be created rather than just randomly looking at deals, right? Because-- Omar: Because man it doesn't really help you, right? If you really go crazy if you try to randomly look at deals.  James: Yes. Yes. I think a lot of people just look at deals. What, where is the deal? What's the deal that exist? Start underwriting the deals right? So-- Omar: Oh I don't have that much free time and I have a son who's like 18 months old man My wife is going to leave me if I start underwriting every deal that comes across my desk.  James: Yes, I don't do all the deals that comes across. Omar: I'm going to kill myself trying to do all that. Yes man it's very surprising I see a lot of people especially on Facebook posting. I mean I get up in the morning and I see this, [inaudible 24:05] who loves to underwrite deals? And I'm like, dude it's 1 a.m. Go get a beer. Why are you underwriting a deal at 1 a.m., man?  James: Yes. Yes. Yes I think some people think that you can open up a big funnel and make sure you know out of that funnel you get one or two good deals, right? But also if you have experience enough you can get the right funnel to make sure you only get quality data in, so that whatever comes in is more quality. Omar: My point is man, why do you want to underwrite more deals? Why don't you underwrite the right deal and spend more time on that deal or that set of deals. James: Correct. Omar: Because there's just so many transactions in the U.S. man. There's no way I can keep up man. James: Correct. Correct. Correct. So let's go to your underwriting Jacksonville because I think that's important, right? So now you already select a few submarkets in Jacksonville, right and then you start networking with Brokers, is that what you did?  Omar: Yes. Yes but you know with Brokers also, you kind of have to train them, right? Because what happened is every time what are you looking at? All that after all that jazz, wine and dining and all that stuff. We had to train Brokers [inaudible25:08] here are only specific submarkets we're looking at. So for instance Jacksonville, it was San Jose, San Marcos, it's the beaches, it was Mandarin and orange [inaudible25:16]  James: Okay. Omar: And Argyle Forest was certainly, right? If it's anything outside of that, unless I don't know it's like the deal of the century, right? Literally, somebody is just handing it away. We don't want to look at it. Don't waste my time. And invariably what the Brokers will do, because it's their job they have to do it. They'll send you deals from other submarkets because they want to sell. Hey, I think this is great. You will love this. James: Yes. Omar: And you have to keep telling them, hey man I really appreciative that you send me this stuff, not interested. Not interested. So, but what that does is you do this a few times and then the Broker really remembers your name when a deal in your particular submarket does show up. Because then you go to the top of the pile. James: Correct. Because they know that you asked specifically for these right now.  Omar: Yes. [inaudible25:58] You know the deal. Right? So that's kind of what we get, right? James: So let's say they send a deal that matches your location. So what is the next thing we look at? Omar: So what I basically look at is what are the demographics. Median income has got to be at the minimum 38 to 40 thousand dollars minimum. James: What, at median household income? Omar: Median household income. Right? James: Got it. Got it. Why do you think median household income is important? Omar: Because look, again this is rough math I didn't do a PhD in [inaudible 26:27]  James: Sure, sure, sure. Go ahead. Omar: Typically, you know, where [inaudible 26:30] everybody says BC but really everybody is doing C. Okay, you can just-- I think people just say B to sound nice. Right? It's really C. Okay, let's be honest. Right? Typically with a C if you're going to push [inaudible 26:41] within one or two years, in these submarkets at least, I don't know about other areas. Typically you want to push the rents to around a thousand dollars a month, give or take. Average rate. I'm just talking very cool terms, right? Which basically means that if you're pushing it to a thousand dollars a month and the affordability index is it should be 33%, 1000 times 12 is 12, 12 times 3 is 36. So I just added an extra 2,000 on top or 4000 on top just to give a margin of safety.  James: Okay. Omar: Right? It's very simple math, right? There's nothing complex in it. Right?  James: Correct. Omar: Because my point is if you're in an area where the average income is 30,000, man you can raise your rent all you like. Nobody's going to pay you. James: Yes. Yes, correct. So I think we can let me clarify to the listeners, right? So basically when you rent to an apartment, we basically look for 3x income, right? So that's how it translates to the household income, average household income and if you want to do a value-add or where deals, you have a margin of buffer in our site and you're buying it lower than what the median household income, that's basically upside. That means you can find enough renters to fill up that upside, right?  Omar: Yes. James: Just to clarify to the listeners. So go ahead. So you basically look up median household income. What is the next step do you look for? Omar: Then I basically look at crime. Basically, I just-- I mean look, there's going to be a level of crime, what I'm really looking at is violent crime. Right? James: Violent crime. Okay. How do you look for which tools to use?  Omar: Well, you can go to crime map, crime ratings, you can subscribe to certain databases and they can give you neighborhood Scout is one by the way.  James: Okay. Okay. Omar: You can use that. And then on top of that because it's harder to do this for Texas, but you can do this in other states like Florida, Georgia and all of that. But for instance, what you can do is see what the comps in the submarket are. Right? And that kind of helps you in determining basically, look if all the properties for a certain vintage around you have traded for a certain amount of money, then if something is up or below that there's got to be a compelling reason for that. Now I'm not saying if it's above it's a bad reason and don't do it. There's got to be a compelling reason. Now they might be actually a very good reason. Right? James: Got it. Omar: So, you know that's like a rough idea and then basically I'm looking at rent upside. Basically look at co-stars and see what the average rents are for this property. What is roughly the average rent upside and you can also seek [inaudible29:04] place that I had a few contacts in Jacksonville and you can also call those up. Right? Again, rough math kind of gives you hey, do I send five hundred two hundred dollars and then basically see what is the amount of value [inaudible29:16]. Because for instance, if all the units have been renovated which by the way happened yesterday. Yesterday we came across [inaudible29:22] in Jackson where I know the Broker and I mean he sent me the email. You know, the email blast out and basically what we saw was the location was great, there's a lot of rent up, supposedly there's rent upside, but when I called the guy up, we know each other. He's like, bro, all the units have been renovated. There's maybe 50, 75, I know you so I'm going to tell you there's only 50, 75 so the price isn't going to be worth it. James: Yes, and they'll ask you to do some weird stuff, right? Like go there, washer, dryer, rent the washer dryer out. Omar: Yes. Yes. James: But charge for assigned parking, right? So very small amount in terms of upside, right? Omar: My point is if it was so easy why don't you do it? James: Yes. Correct. Omar: That's the way I look at it.  James: Yes, usually I mean when I talk to the Brokers I will know within the few seconds whether it's a good deal or not. They'll be really excited if it matches what we are looking for, right? Especially-- Omar: Yes because I think the other deal is if you develop a good relationship with Brokers and they know what you're specifically looking for, good Brokers can kind of again look they have to sell but they can also give you some guidance along the way. James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Right? They can do a lot bro, it doesn't really work for you I think, but I'm just going to be honest with you, and look you still have to take it with a grain of salt but it is what it is.  James: Correct, correct. Okay. So look for rent upside by looking at rent comps and you said in Texas which is a non-disclosure state it's hard to find sales comp but…  Omar: Yes, but look, you know if you're in a market you're going to know who the people are doing deals. Which people are doing deals.  James: Okay. Omar: And even if you don't know it, say your property manager kind of knows it, or your  loan broker or lender knows kind of what deals have traded in the market. You got me. You can pick up a phone and call some people, right? Maybe you don't get all the information but you can get, I mean if you're in submarket or sometimes even in Texas, you can't know.  James: Yes, exactly. Exactly. So when do you start underwriting on your Excel sheet?  Omar: Oh bro after I've done the property tour because if these don't even pass this stuff why you even bothering to underwrite it.  James: Oh really? So okay. So you basically look at market-- Omar: [inaudible 31:28] My point is, if it passes all these filters and then I have a conversation, I talk to my property manager, I talk to the Broker, I talk to my local contacts there and if it's all a go and these are all five-minute conversations or less. It's not like a two hour long conversation if it passes through all this they're just going to [inaudible 31:45] property door, man.  James: Okay, so you basically-- but what about the price? How do you determine whether the price they asking is reasonable or not. Omar: Well, obviously because I can do a rough math and compare it against the comps, right?  James: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. So you basically do [inaudible 31:59]  Omar: Oh, yes. Yes, because my point is why waste myself? Because look, the price could make sense, all the Brokers pictures we all know look fantastic. It looks like you're in like Beverly Hills, you know. So the pictures you know are kind of misleading, right? And the location might be really good but hey, you might go there and realize you know, the approach is really weird. Or for instance we were touring this one property and then 90% of I think the residents were just hanging out at 12:00 noon. James: Correct. Omar: Outside smoking.  James: At 12 o'clock. Wow. Omar: I said, well what the hell is this. Right? So my point is some things you only know when you do tour a property, there's no amount of videos and photos because the Broker isn't going to put a bad photo on.  James: Yes. Yes. Their Excel spreadsheets are going to tell you that, right?  Omar: Yes. James: So basically, you know, you have to go. What about what else do you look for when you do a property tour other than…  Omar: So you know when they're doing a property tour, like obviously I'm taking a lot of notes, I'm taking a lot of pictures, a lot of times the Broker will say one thing and then you kind of turn back around and ask the same question a different way just to kind of see. But what I also like to do is I also like to tour the property. On the property tour I like to have the current property manager and look I'm not stupid enough to say that the Broker hasn't coached the property manager. The broker has obviously coached the property manager that's his job. But a lot of times you'll realize that they haven't been coached enough. So if you ask the right questions the right way you can get some level of information. Again you have to verify everything and another trick I also figured out is. You should also try to talk to the maintenance guy and have him on the property tour and then take these people aside and so the Broker can be with somebody else. Ideally you should tour with two people. So if one guy takes care of the Broker and you take care of the property manager or the other way around. Because then you can isolate and ask questions, right? So especially if you take like say a maintenance guy and you ask him, hey man so what kind of cap X you think we should do? What do you think about the [inaudible 33:54]? A lot of times those people haven't been coached as much or at all. James: Correct.  Omar: And to be honest with you, man, we are in a high trust society. Most people aren't going to completely just lie to your face. They might lie a little bit but people aren't going to say red is blue and blue is purple. James: Correct. Omar: You know you can see that. You know when somebody says it, you can feel it. Come on. James: You can feel, yes. That's what I'm coming. You can actually see whether they are trying to hide stuff or not. But you're right, asking the maintenance guy is a better way than asking the property managers or even the other person is like leasing agent.  Omar: Yes. James: Who were assigned to you. They probably will tell you a lot more information. Omar: And that's why I feel like it's better to have two people like you and a partner touring. James: Okay. Omar: Because then different people, like one because look, and there is nothing wrong. The Broker has to do this. The Broker always wants to be with you to see every question is answered the way he wants it to be answered. So then one of your partners or you can tackle the Broker and the other person can tackle somebody else. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to, okay so now you are done with the property tour. Now you're going to an [inaudible35:01] underwriting, right? So, how do you underwrite, I mean I want to talk especially about Jacksonville because it's a new market for you and you are looking at a new, how did you underwrite taxes, insurance and payroll because this-- Omar: Taxes was very easy to do. You talk to a tax consultant and you also see what historically the rate has been for the county. Right? James: Okay. Omar: But again, just because your new doesn't mean you don't know people. James: Correct. But how do you underwrite tax post acquisition? Because I mean in taxes is always very complicated-- Omar: No but taxes is harder, right? But [inaudible 35:32] in Florida it's easier because the sale is reported. They already know what price it is. James: So do they, so how much let's say how many percent do they increase it to after-- Omar: Typically in Duval County where we bought, it's about 80 to 85% [inaudible35:46]  James: Okay. Okay. That's it.  Omar: But the tax rate is low, right? Just to give you an idea the tax rate is [inaudible35:51] in Texas a tax rate is higher. So you understand there's lots of things and for instance in Florida there's an early payment discount. So if you pay in November, so it's November, December, January, February, right? So if you pay in November, which is four months before you should be paying you get 4% off your tax return.  James: Oh, that's really good. Omar: And if you pay in December you get 3% off, if you pay January you get well, whatever 2% off. In February you get 1% off. James: So what is the average tax rate in Florida?  Omar: I don't know about Florida. I know about Douval. It was like 1.81.  James: Wow, that's pretty low. Yes compared to-- Omar: Yes, but you also have to realize you have the percentage of assessed value is higher, right? Depending on which county you are in. You're in San Antonio and Austin where Bear county is just crazy. James: Bear Travis County, yes. Omar: Yes. Bear and Travis are just crazy but there are other counties in for instance Texas where the tax might be high but percentage of assessed value is really low.  James: Correct.  Omar: No, I mean it balances out. Right? My point is-- James: Yes. So but what about the, do you get to protest the tax and all that in the Duval County in Jacksonville? Omar: I think you can. No you were not, I think I know you can because we're going to do it. But you need to have a pretty good reason, right?  James: Okay. Okay. Omar: Right? And obviously look, you can show that yea, look I bought it for this price, but my income doesn't support this tax or this or that. I mean you have to hire the right people. I'm not going to go stand and do it myself.  James: So basically they do bump up the price of the acquisition, but it's very easy to determine that and 80 to 85% of whatever.  Omar; Yes. Yes. Yes. James: That's-- Omar: But look man, on the flip side is that when you go in, you kind of have a better control of your taxes in Texas where taxes can just go up and you [inaudible37:29]  James: Yes. Yes. You have no control in Texas. So we usually go very very conservative to a hundred percent. So which-- Omar: Look my point is it's good and bad, right? It depends where you are. So now people will say, oh the tax person knows all your numbers and like, yes but I can plan for it.  James: Yes, yes, correct. But it also gives you an expectation difference between buyer and seller because the buyer is saying this is my cap rate whereas the seller is saying, this is what, I mean the seller is going to say this is one of the cap rate whereas the buyer is going to say this is my cap rate will be after acquisition because-- Omar: Yes. Of course. James: So when it's smaller [inaudible38:03] between these two, the expectation is more aligned compared to in Texas because you know, it can jump up a lot and there's a lot of mismatch of expectations. Right? Omar: Well actually a deal in Houston, it's near Sugar Land and yesterday I was talking to this guy who wanted me on the deal and the other deal isn't going anywhere because the taxes were reassessed at double last year. Now he has to go to this the next week to fight it. Man, there's no way you're going to get double taxes in Florida or Georgia where there's our disclosure state, right? James: Correct. Correct, correct. So that's a good part because the buyer would be saying that's not my, the seller would be saying that's not my problem and buyer is going to say I have to underwrite that, right? So. Omar: I mean man, you can have a good case, right? Because it's not like somebody is saying something to you like, look man this is the law.  James: Yes, correct. So let's go back to Insurance. How do you underwrite Jacksonville Insurance? Because I know in Florida there is a lot of hurricane and all that-- Omar: [inaudible 38:58] just to give you an idea that is a complete myth because Jacksonville has only had one hurricane in the past eight years.  James: So is it lower than other parts of Florida? Or it just-- Omar: Yes. So the first it only depends where you are in Florida. Number one, right? Number two, it depends if you're in a flood plain or not, but that's in Texas as well. Right? And number three, it also depends a lot of times, well how many other claims have happened in your area? Right? Because that kind of for the insurance people that's kind of like a you know, how risky your area is quote unquote for them. So yes, so in Jacksonville, and apparently I did not need to know this information but we were told this information. Like the coast of Florida where Jacksonville is the golf coast is really warm where Jacksonville is, not golf courses on the other side, it's the Atlantic side. These are really warm waters relatively speaking. So apparently there's like some weather system which makes it really hard for hurricanes to come into Jacksonville. So that's why it's only had one hurricane in the 80 years.  James: So when you get your insurance quote, when you compare that to other parts of other markets-- Omar: Oh yes, Tampa was way higher, man. James: What about like Houston and Dallas?  Omar: I don't know about Houston because I haven't really lately looked at something in Houston. Right? So I can't really say about Houston and Dallas was maybe like say $25, $50 less maybe. James: Oh really. Okay.  Omar: Yes. It wasn't because that was a big question that came up for everybody. I was like look man, literally here's all the information and you don't even have to take my word for it because I'm giving you sources for all the information. Right? [crosstalk40:24] James: [crosstalk40:25] rate at different markets? Omar: Sorry? James: Are you talking about the insurance rate for-- Omar: Yes. Yes. Yes. Because a lot of guys from Chicago, I had a few investors they were like, but Florida has real hurricanes. I was like, yes but Jacksonville doesn't. James: Okay, got it. So you basically got a code from the insurance guy for the-- Omar: Oh yes man, I wasn't just going to go in and just put my own number that has no basis in reality.  James: Correct, correct. So, what about payroll? How did you determine the payroll?  Omar: So the payroll is pretty easy man. You know how much people get paid on per whatever hour. You know, you can have a rough idea how many people you are going to put on site and then you know what the load is, so then it gets pretty easy to calculate what your payroll is going to be. James: What was the load that you put in? Omar: So the load in this particular case was like 40% which is very high. James: Okay-- Omar: Yes it is pretty high. But the-- James: That is pretty high is very high. Omar: No. No. No. But hold on. They put our wages really low, right?  James: Oh really? Okay. Omar: Then you have got to [inaudible41:16] around. I was paying roughly the same that I was paying in [inaudible41:19]  James: Really? So why is that market…  Omar: I have no idea man, and I tried to check I asked multiple people. We did all that song and dancing. It's all kind of the same.  James: So you looked at the current financials and looked at the payroll? Omar: No. No, I was talking about my payroll would be going forward. I don't really care what the guy before me paid. Why do I care? James: So you got that from your property management?  Omar: Yes. Yes. Yes. And then I verified it with other property managers and blah blah blah blah blah checked everything, you know did all the due diligence. James: Got it. Yes. It's interesting that because 40% is really high. I mean usually-- Omar: Yes but [inaudible41:52] basis was really low. Like people salaries are really lower.  James: Is that a Jacksonville specific? Omar: I don't know what it is specifically. I think it's a Florida-based thing relatively speaking. But yes, that's what I mean. I thought it was kind of weird too. But then I mean I checked with other people.  James: So the deal that you're doing, I presume is a value ad deal. Is that right? Omar: Oh yes, all the deals-- James: How deep is the value at? I mean roughly at high level, how much are you putting in? Omar: Man, nothing has been touched for ten years. In fact, let's put it this way. We have enough land we checked with the city that we have enough land at the back to develop 32 more units.  James: That's really good because it's hard to find deals now, you know. Like ten years not touched, right? All deals are being flip right now, right? So within a couple of years. So that's good. That should be a really good deal. And what is the-- Omar: A hundred percent we could do basically.  James: What was your expense ratio that you see based on income divided by your expenses? I mean first-- Omar: Hold on man, let me just take it out. I don't even have to tell you. Hold on.  James: Okay. Omar: Why even bother you know?  James: Because usually like 50 to 55% is common in the [inaudible 42:59] industry. Omar: Oh no in basically in Jacksonville. You can get really lower expense ratios.  James: Okay.  Omar: It depends if it's submarket [inaudible43:05]  James: Yes, and I know like in Phoenix, I think it was like 45, or 40% which was surprising to me [crosstalk43:13]  Omar: [crosstalk43:13] this right now. Hold on let me open this model I can tell you right now. I don't want to give you something [inaudible 43:21] then variably one person's going to be like, I looked at your deal your numbers--Like, yes I'm sorry. I don't like have like numbers with second decimal points. Because people always do that to try to catch you. Right? And they're like, yes it's off by like $2 man. So hold on, divided by, oh yes so it was operating at 52 and yes first year we're going to be at 56 because you know we are repositioning-- James: Yes. First year of course, it will be higher-- Omar: And then we just go down.  James: Okay. Okay, okay that's interesting, that's good. So, and then as the income grows and your expenses stabilize, I think that expenses should be-- Omar: That's the only reason why the expense ratio goes down. Right? Because you're basically your top Line growth is way higher than your basically your expense growth.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay, that's really good. And you look for mid teens IRR. Omar: Mid teens IRR, a 10% cash flow and stabilized, all that jazz. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay, that sounds good in terms of the underwriting. So-- Omar: Am I giving you all my secrets James?  James: Yes, absolutely. I will be very specific to Jacksonville. Right? I like to see you know, how each market is being underwritten and so that a business can learn and you know, it's very specific to people who do a lot of analysis on the market because I think that's important, right? You can't just go and buy any deal out of the gate right there, right? So it's good to know that. And these three things like payroll, insurance and taxes are very tricky when you-- Omar: Oh yes. James: --in different markets. So it's good to understand how does that county or that particular city or state determines their property taxes? Because we have different things in taxes here where I buy so it's good to understand. That's good. What is the most valuable value ad that you think that you're going to be doing to this deal? Omar: Oh well look man, because nothing had been touched. I think everything is valuable.  James: Okay. Omar: Hold on but that we lucked out also, right? There's a part of this is work and preparation. Or part of this is luck also. I mean you can't just take that portion away, right? James: Oh yes yes. Absolutely. Omar: All my hard work. Right? James: Absolutely. Absolutely. Omar: Because there's lots of people-- James: It's really hard to find that kind of deals nowadays, right? So how much was your rehab budget?  Omar: So rehab is about a million dollars. James: A million dollars. So let's say your million-dollar today become 500,000 right? I'm showing million dollar you're bringing into your exterior everything upgrade. Right? So let's say then-- Omar: Your exterior is roughly split 70/30. Interior [inaudible46:01]  James: Okay. Okay. So between interior and exterior which one do you think is more important?  Omar: I think if you only had a few dollars, exterior. James: Exterior, okay. Omar: Because people make a-- again this doesn't mean you should ignore the interior. Just to add a disclaimer. The point is, my point is a lot of times we as humans make decisions on first impressions. So if you come into a property and the clubhouse looks [inaudible 46:28] the approach looks [inaudible 46:29] the trees are trimmed, the parking lot is done nicely, then you go to an apartment which may, I mean I'm not saying it should be a complete disaster, but it might not be the best apartment in the world. You can overcome that. Right? But if you come in and the approach looks like you know, somebody got murdered here, right and the clubhouse looks like you know fights happen here, then no matter how good your indeed a renovation is, there's a good chance people will say well, I mean, it looks like I might get killed to just get into my apartment. James: Yes. Omar: Right? So it's the first impression thing more than anything else. It's like any other thing in life I feel. James: Absolutely. So let's say you are 300,000 for exterior. Right? Let's say that 300,000 become a 150,000, what are the important exterior renovation that you would focus on? Omar: So we did all the tree trimming because man, there's first of all living in Texas you realize how much a mystery still [inaudible 47:26] right? So first of all, tree trimming. Trees hadn't been trimmed for 10 years man. They were beautiful Spanish [inaudible 47:34] oak trees with Spanish moss on them. But they just hadn't been trimmed. James: Okay. Okay. Omar: So doing all the tree trimming, all the landscaping, then basically resealing the driveway and then making sure all the flower beds and all the approach leading up to all of that was done properly and the monument signage.  James: Okay, got it. So this is what you would focus on. And what about-- Omar: But also putting a dog park by the way. [inaudible 47:57] you said if my $300,000 budget went to 150 what I do and that's-- James: Yes. Dog park is not very expensive. Omar: Yes. But I'm saying it's stuff like dog park and [inaudible 48:06] to your outdoor kitchen, you're swimming pool, put a bigger sign in. You know [inaudible48:11]  James: Yes and dog park is one of the most valuable value ad because you spend less on it, but a lot of people want it, right? So for some reason, I mean people like pets and all that. So what about the interior? You have 700,000, how much per door are you planning to put for each-- Omar: So roughly say I can do the math roughly. There was six something. Right? So and James: [inaudible48:32]  Omar: Yes, so we're not even-- so we're planning on doing roughly say 75% of the unit's right? So I think that's  104 units if you go 700 divided by 104, roughly we were going to be around $6500 per unit. James; Okay. That's a pretty large budget.  Omar: Yes, man you should see some of these units man, I was like why God how do people even live here?  James: Yes. Omar: Because it's a very affluent. I mean relatively middle class, upper middle class submarket, right? They just haven't done anything.  James: So are you going to be using the property management company to do the renovations? Omar: They have a very fantastic reputation and they were highly recommended a few of our other contacts also use them so that's why. James: Okay. Omar: Because we were seeing problems with a lot of other people's property managers. Either they didn't have the right staff or didn't have the right professionals and this and that indeed these guys were properly integrated across the value chain. James: So at high level, what are you doing on the interiors? Omar: High level Interiors, it's a typical, [inaudible 49:29] back splashes, change the kitchen appliances, countertops, medicine cabinets, lighting packages. The other small little thing which we realized was a very big value add but was cost us less than two dollars and fifty cents per outlet was the [inaudible 49:45] Yes it was the biggest value add-- James: Yeah, biggest value add; that is the most valuable value add. Right? Omar: Yes. James: Like I've never done it in any of my properties but I was telling my wife, Shanti and I said, hey, you know, we should do these, you know, because it's so cheap and a lot of people, a lot of-- Omar: Yes, it was like two dollars or whatever, it was cheaper than that and people cannot get over the fact that they have so many USB out, I was like, everywhere there is a plug there's got to be a USB outlet. James: So do you put for every outlet? The USB? Omar: Not for every, I was dramatizing but I mean for the ones that are accessible say around the kitchen, living room. James: Okay interesting I should steal that idea.  Omar: I didn't invent the idea go for it man.  James: Yes. Omar: [inaudible 50:25] USB port so take it.  James: I know a few other people who do it mentioned that too but I'm not sure for some reason we are not doing it. But that should be a very simple-- Omar: People love it man. And I don't blame them man. Like it's freaking aggravating sometimes, you know, when you got to put like a little thing on top of your USB and then you plug it in. James: Yes, imagine how much you know, this life has changed around all this electronic [crosstalk50:46] devices and all that. So interesting. So did you get a lot of advice from your property management companies on how to work and what are the things to renovate and all that? Or how-- Omar: Yes, and no because we had been developing a relationship with them six months prior to this acquisition. So we had a good relationship with not just them but with other vendors in the market. And especially luckily for us the regional we have for this property right now, actually in an earlier life and with an earlier employer had actually started working on this asset 15 years ago as a property manager. This is sheer dumb luck. This is not by design. So she really knew where all the [inaudible51:24]  James: Yes. Yes, that's interesting. Sometimes you get people who have been in the industry for some time. They say yes, I've worked on that property before they, which is good for us because they know. Got it. Got it. So let's go to a more personal side of things. Right? So you have been pretty successful now and you're doing an apartment syndication now and all that, right? So why do you do what you do? Omar: James, I know a lot of people try to say they have a big "why" and they have a really philosophical reason James, my big "why" is James, I really like-- my lifestyle is very expensive James. So all these nice suits. James: Okay. Omar: All these nice vacations man, they're not cheap. Okay. Real estate is a pretty good way to make a lot of money man.  James: Okay.  Omar: I want to give you a philosophical reason, I know a lot of people say they have the Immigrant success story, Oh I came from India or I came from Pakistan, I ate out of a dumpster, I worked in a gas station and no I had five dollars in my pocket, and everybody tells me that and I say, okay what did you do man? I don't know did you just swim from India, you had two dollars in your pocket you need to get on a plane buddy.  James: You can't be here, right?  Omar: No Indian shows up to America and [inaudible 52:37] Are you kidding me? All the Indians are educated. Everybody's an engineer or doctor or lawyer. You kidding me. He shows up with five dollars, man. So no I didn't show up to this country with five dollars James. I didn't eat out of a dumpster. I didn't work at a gas station, and I'm very grateful for that. Right? I've always had a very good lifestyle and I don't need to have a philosophical reason to say I'm doing this to, I don't know, solve world hunger or poverty or whatever. I have a pretty good lifestyle. I'm very grateful and very blessed. And the biggest thing in my life is being that, look I moved to Texas man I didn't know anybody. Right? But people have been so generous, people have been so kind to me. I'm not just saying investing with us, which is very nice, which I'm very grateful but also connecting me with other people, right? Hey, hey just opening a door. They didn't have to do it, but people have been so generous and so kind, So I quite enjoy the fact man that it's a good way to  make an honest living, right? I have a very expensive lifestyle that needs to get financed and that's just the way it is. And I didn't show up with two dollars in my pocket. So I'm very  grateful for that.  James: That sounds good. So, can you give some, do you have any daily habits that you think makes you more successful? Omar: No man, I just get up every day and I try to put one step after the other but consistently work in the same direction. So every day I'm reaching out to people and that's a lot of small little tasks. First of all, I never like getting up early but I've always known the value of getting up early. So I get up in the morning, right? 5:45, 550 ish I kind of up. Most days not always, right? I read a lot of books man. I reach out to Brokers all the time. I'm always looking at deals, coordinating with my team to do stuff and a lot of these like you do in your business there are a lot of small little tasks there's no one task that is, oh my God, you do this and [inaudible 54:33] But it's just small little tasks that you do daily, every single day in and day out. So even if you're feeling sick, even if your head is hurting you just do it.  James: So can you give a few advice to people who want to start in this business? Omar: Regularly communicating. So in my particular case, I don't know like when you're starting out specifically everybody has a different pain point, right? So in my particular case for instance on a daily, I can't say about weekly I can tell you, staying in touch with my marketing people, emailing Brokers, emailing investors, following up with people I've had conversations with, especially leads, you know people who use this stuff. A lot of word of mouth and just doing the stuff over and over and over. But it's not like I have a 9:00 to 5:00 now, right? It's not like oh Friday, I'm done and Saturday, Sunday I'm relaxing. I mean I could relax on a Monday now, but Saturday and Sunday I'm working. Right? So that's a good-- but it's like the same as you were doing with your business, right?  James: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Omar it has been really a pleasure to have you on this podcast. Is there anything that you have never mentioned in other podcasts that you want to mention? Omar: No James, I don't want to go down that route man.  James: Is there something that you want to tell, you know people who listen to you that you think that would be a good thing to talk about? Omar: Yes, what I want to tell people is listen, I don't think you should take words of wisdom for me. But what I should tell people is guys, honestly, I don't l

ow how to deploy it and learn about real estate. Started with the single-family space. And so, the first thing I bought was a fourplex than a bunch of houses. And then I realized it was too much brain damage in terms of just scaling. Right. I mean it's, having 12 insurance policies, 12 tenants and 12 loans and 12 of everything is kind of a pain. And so, learn about multifamily and then kind of the rest of the history. So, I've been running with that since.   James: Yes. I really disliked, the insurance part of the single family because--   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: --lot of it expires at different times of the year.   Feras Moussa: That's my biggest pain point honestly and I literally will, I'm willing to pay a premium for a broker that'll just take care of it and I just don't have to think about it because it's just not worth the hassle of thinking through and spending the time and effort there.   James: Yes. Yes. I think you can pay like a monthly is the same amount and it's all automated, but insurance is one thing you have to print out and you have to scan, and you have to do all kinds of things.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: So, let's go a bit more into the thought process here before we go into the details of your deals and all that. So, three IT guys, right? I'm also with an electrical engineering background with some software. Why do you think a lot of these IT guys like commercial real estate investing, especially in multifamily?   Feras Moussa: Yeah, I mean.   Ben Suttles: From my perspective, I think it's the numbers right. I think it's-- you come from a kind of an analytical side of the brain, right? And I think in real estate, a lot of it is numbers driven. Now there's a relationship side of the business, right? Which we all have to have. We have to have that side of it to raise equity and obviously work with the brokers and stuff like that, but at the end of the day, it's a numbers game, right? You've got to be able to underwrite the deals. You've got to be able to make, projections, financial projections and all that as numbers and spreadsheet driven. And I think that's a lot of why the IT and engineering guys, get into this space. Also, I think the other thing is too is that allows us to be creative. When we're not able to be creative in some, some respects, whenever you're able to kind of put your stamp on the rehab of a property and improve that and, and kind of get out and roll your sleeves up. That's another thing that we were lacking probably in a lot of our jobs. And so, I think, at least personally for me, that that might be part of the reason why, I don't know, Feras might have another take on it as well.   Feras Moussa: Well, no, I think the numbers things. Definitely one of the biggest factors, but it's also, it's a space that you can learn it yourself, right? Meaning, you know, a lot of engineers are willing to go above and beyond, spend the effort, research, read books and learn it. You can do that in this space and, there's not like an engineering exam at the end of it where you have to do, you can pass. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: And so, it's the kind of thing where you can learn it and it makes sense, right? The numbers don't lie. And so, two engineers, right? It's like, you can see a clear path of the progression, right? There's not like a leap of faith any point in time. And then the other part of it too is problem-solving, right? I think all engineers like problem-solving as part of the challenge. And to me, that's what I like about multifamily. It's bigger and harder, right? Sure. I could've probably scaled out a rental portfolio part, really wanted to, but I mean, it's just not fun to buy, hundred thousand-dollar assets, $150,000. It's a lot more fun to do bigger projects, a bigger team, and really, work through each issue as it comes up.   James: Yes. Yes. I mean in my mind is a lot about-- I mean real estates, there's a lot of creative thinking that you need to put on and that's really fun, right? Because you want to, I mean, I'm sure when you guys handle deals, we want to solve that problem. Right?   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: You want to break; I'm going to break that deal. Right? Hey, why? Like for me, I always say, how can I break this deal? Why you should, why you should work for me. Right? That's why I think, I'm sure you guys do that too.   Ben Suttles: I was doing that earlier yesterday, man. Yes, man, [inaudible 13:36], how do you blow up the deal, right? And--   James: How do you blow up the deal? There must be something wrong with this deal. Let's find that out.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 13:42].   Feras Moussa: Oh yes that's fun. Let's have a deal that makes sense. It's like, this not right, I'm just going to offer a lower, I might've otherwise because something doesn't make me, go 100%.   James: Yes. If that [inaudible] make sense, you are like, let's say to break it. Something must be wrong and when you can't break it then, then it makes sense. That okay, that's [inaudible 13:58].   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: That's the one.   Feras Moussa: And then the other part too is that it's a people game, right? I mean, so something, some engineers might not like it, but at least me, I mean nothing. Ben, same. We like it because it's a team effort. It's not one person. It's how do you combine people really get the thing done both on, on the GP side as well as the operations side, right? How do you build rapport with your manager, with your regional, whoever it is? Right. And kind of help accomplish the goals and give them motivated. To me, that's part of the fun.   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I guess what we do is like project management on steroids.   Ben Suttles: Feras, if you touch us up on that, that was really interesting to earlier which was the project management piece, which I had forgotten about. I mean a lot of us to come from big, we've done big projects, we've worked with teams and let's be honest, and this is a team sport, right?   James: Absolutely.   Ben Suttles: This is, yes you could maybe be solo and respectful, you've got a team in the background that's helping you accomplish your goal and you've got project management or manage that whole entire process in order to get it to close. And then even after you're closing it, right? In order to asset management or to do the asset management, to do the construction management and for you James too, you do the property management.   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: All of that stuff is, you're juggling a lot of different pieces and making sure that the ball is continuously moving forward towards that goal. And I think a lot of IT and engineering folks come from that background, understand that. So, once you can kind of segue that into the commercial real estate state space, it's just essentially just project management at the end of the day.   James: Yes. Yes. You one might, throughout my 22 years in the corporate world, I think 16 years I was a manager and I was also a project manager and I was a very good project manager. I need all that translates to this multimillion-dollar business that you're managing, right?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Because to make sure your transactions happen correctly; you need to make sure you communicate to people. And that's what we all learned in project management. But how do you over communicate? How do you make sure people don't mess up? How do you take proactive action to de-risk a project? Right? So that's, that's how the game is played. Even in the commercial real estate with this [crosstalk 16:00].   Ben Suttles: And it's never going to be straight forward. Right? There are always challenges.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So, I mean, that's where, we're those project management skills really kind of come into play because, anybody can run a smooth project, right? And we're nothing ever bad happened, but let's just be honest. There's always something that happens.   James: Yes, yes.   Ben Suttles: And so, you have to, you have to have that, that acumen to be able to, to keep that ball moving forward towards that common goal.   James: Yes. So apart from the, IT education itself, do you guys think that your work experience, the classes that you have been at your workplace and the environment that you have gone through? I mean as given certain edge to you guys as well.   Feras Moussa: I will say absolutely. Like I said, I mean what we do is project management on steroids. Right? And so, having done that for years had-- knowing how to keep track of multiple projects simultaneously. That's another thing too, right? A lot of people will get into the business and they realize like, hey, syndicating start to finish is not a walk in the park. There's a lot that happens, both lending and legal and issues come up and they, it's a lot to keep track of. But then she tried to do two deals at a time. Right. And how would, it's not really two weeks, it's kind of a square, issues. So, I would say absolutely. Right. And then the other thing that we've seen, being on the tech side is how do we differentiate ourselves from other people too, right? How do we, create a better impression for investors? How do you position, everything professionally, right? All of our stuff is mobile friendly. All of our stuff, certain ways. And those are the things that I've brought at least from the tech world, to make sure that we kind of do and do well.   Ben Suttles: Yes, I think, I think efficiencies, right? That you come from that IT engineering background, it's all about productivity, efficiency, how can we automate things and James you probably saw the same thing when he got into space and to completely fracture. A lot of it is backward or outdated and there's a, there's a lot of low hanging fruit stuff, ways that can be improved and I'm sure your team is looking to do that constantly and so are we. And that's all come that comes from our background, right?   James: Background, yes.   Feras Moussa: I told Ben I have to stop myself from wanting to start a software company every few months. Being an entrepreneur and being a software guy, it's like man, this place some of the stuff we do is pretty archaic.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Ben Suttles: I think real estate is the last, most, what it called?   Feras Moussa: [crosstalk 18:28].   James: Fragmented industry, you know, that is, they're like something like AI or something is going to take over soon, right. Because there's so much inefficiency.   Ben Suttles: Yes. But it's, you can take it to an extent, but then there's that personal side, that relationship side. Right. And I think that's kind of, that's, that's one of the parts that I took from my former job, which was, a lot of sales and business development work as well. Right. Taking that, that networking, that relationship building side, that building rapport side into this space. But, I mean, I agree. I think there's their software and AI and these types of things are going to automate a lot of that back-office part of the process and maybe even the analysis piece. But there's always going to have to be those two people coming together to make a deal happen, right?   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Because ultimately, it's going to be one person or one group and trying to sell on one group trying to buy, and you have to come with some kind of an agreement. Right. And then even after you buy it, right, there's always those relationships with vendors and employees and all those different things that you have to kind of manage to. But anything that we can bring and that we've seen in our past gig where we could make that more efficient here, we're, we're obviously trying to introduce that.   James: Got It. Got It, got it. So, let's go back to the business side of it. So, what are your guys' focus, in terms of market? Right now, currently Atlanta and some cities in Texas, right? Why don't you guys talk about, why did you choose these two markets?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, in terms of why we chose them, I mean, the same reason you're probably in San Antonio to some degree, right? We're looking for strong, attractive markets that are not a single industry that is growing right. Population and the business side. And then, really the important thing for us to is the yield, right. So that's why we got into San Antonio too, was that we can't find returns in Houston. We look at a lot of bills and use of our base and we don't own anything in Houston, right? We're looking for returns that we can, that that will actually, you are looking for deals that'll give actual turns, foreign investors. That's also why we don't look in Dallas, right? Price points are too high that you having to pay so much that you basically have no yield on the deal. And so that's kind of what really got us into Atlanta. We got us into San Antonio as well and yes, Beaumont's kind of a slight story, but those are the things that we look for. And then in terms of future deals, right? If future markets, so, we've really kind of manage to, I would say streamline a lot more of our acquisition pipeline, right? In terms of underwriting deals, identifying deals and really keeping a pipeline going. And so, what that's allowed us to do, especially with a fulltime asset manager now, is we can look at a lot more deals. So, we've kind of identified two markets that we want to get into, hopefully, this year. Orlando in North Carolina. And that just, just to give us, just to keep our pipeline going. Right. We can keep looking at more and more and more deals. Yes, we'll hopefully be finding something that makes sense.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   James: So how do you guys choose your market? So, like now you say Orlando and not Carolina, right? So, I have a lot of stats on Orlando because I know it's growing very quickly. So, let's take, not Carolina. Why did you guys identify? Not Carolina?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I think, I think all of it boils down to population growth, job growth. We also like to find areas and that's not every single market, but I like to see a good concentration of different universities and colleges as well because I feel like a lot of the bigger corporations are going to follow where they're going to have a good funnel of potential students to take from it as well. So, we'll look in college towns as well too, because, but let's be honest, North Carolina, it's got, the research triangle, it's got a ton of universities. And, it's calling to be called the Wall Street of the south. The problem with North Carolina is that we're not the only ones looking there. So, it's, it's pretty competitive there too. But it's got a lot of those good data points that we like to see in terms of population economic growth--   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --that you see in Texas and in Georgia. And really, we are, we look at in Texas for quite some time and we found Georgia was very, very similar in a lot of ways to Texas. And so that's the reason we started kind of focusing on Atlanta as well. But it ultimately boils down to, is there enough population job growth to continue to drive demand for the workforce housing that we're, that we're looking for. So, people are always like, well, you're not renting out to fortune 500 folks. So why do you care about that? I'm saying, well, the ancillary service companies and service jobs, they're going to feed into this white-collar job is what we're looking for. So, if you don't have any of the fortune 500 stuff rights, then there's not any real need for a lot of the infrastructure where a lot of these people are going to be working. So, when you, when you look at it in Texas, when you look at it and Georgia, right? One of those people is there. So there has to be serviced workforce type jobs that are going to have to be feeding into that. And that's why we like those markets. And, we see a lot of that same type of thing happening in Orlando and some other markets and Florida and as well as North Carolina. And we've looked in Tennessee, we've looked in some other spots as well. From us we've got so much deal flow coming in that in order for us to be a little bit more strategic work as a team, we've decided to focus on about three or four major markets and then just go deep on those and then we can go horizontal and find out that markets in the future.   James: Got It. So, let's say now today you're getting a deal, right? Let's say from North Carolina, what other steps that you guys take? So today let's say, I mean how do you guys get deals nowadays. Is it through broker relationship, off-market, on the market? How are you guys sorting out the deal flow?   Ben Suttles: Yes, everything in between. A lot of it is brokers. A lot of is people that know what's his buyers, people that you know, we will get the deal closed, right? Whether it's the broker that knows it and they might know. Seller. One thing I tell every broker is like, hey, if you have a deal that you don't have the exclusive on and you need someone to make a pre-emptive offer to try to get that locked down. Like, where are your guys? Right? So, you find ways to motivate the broker is motivated. Other people that know someone that knows someone. So, we, I mean really deals come in all shapes and forms. And so, for us, the biggest volume is definitely the brokers, but it's really, it's not about the ones that they just email outlasted, right? It's really about the follow-up deals that maybe are near, getting to the finish line and getting the finish line in terms of the-- in terms of the marketing, but they haven't had any such interest or for whatever reason. Right. So, I think that's important. So, once the deal comes through in terms of the analysis side of LLC, dig into the P12, dig into the OEM, but more importantly, talk to them. Sorry, go ahead.   James: I'm just saying, what do you look for first in the deal? Do you get a-- so you get a deal, what do you look for? What are the, what do you, what's your sniff test because I --   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: underwrite everything, right? What's the sniff test?   Feras Moussa: I'll tell you what my first sniff test. I look at what the average rents are and what their price point is, and then I can deduce from that, right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Is this going to be anywhere. And really what I'm doing kind of mentally ballparking what the cap might be. Right? But really, I'm looking at what are the average rents and what does the purchase price. Right. And then yield. Is there, are they close enough that I think that there's some meat on the bone, right? It's really what it boils down to. I'll give you a real example. There was a deal in Atlanta that I-- so North Atlanta, Atlanta has a really unique market. North Atlanta is really expensive. South Atlanta is the complete opposite. There's a deal that came through on the northern side and I think the average rents on that deal were like, 850 $900. So, I'm okay, this one might be at a reasonable price point. Right? And so, I'm like in my head, mentally I'm like, okay, let me call the broker. If this is 80 maybe 90 you know, there's a deal to be had here. Hey, call the broker. And it's 130 a door, right? So, I mean, that already instantly ruled it out. And so, you're really looking for some of those kinds of low hanging fruit just to figure out, okay, is this still even in the ballpark for us to look into it anymore.   Ben Suttles: Yes, absolutely. And I think the first sniff test James is really, I mean then the location of it too, right? Do you know what I mean? We're getting the deal flow and these places that we want to be, and we've identified different pockets within those submarkets that we want to be in. So, if it's not within one of those pockets and we're automatically, putting that to the side. Now that doesn't mean that there's not a deal there. Right.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So those are usually kind of the maybe deals and we're, we want to kind of circle back maybe we're bored or something. Let's do that one-- -   Feras Moussa: Exactly, whether we are bored, we go back and look at those deals.   Ben Suttles: Yes, we'll go back and take a look at those. Right. But we're looking for that are going to be the net, that those are some market pockets, right? That we like. And then from there, right, just like what Feras was saying, you can almost, you can almost immediately tell if it's going to work. Right. And you pencil out so many deals. I mean, we, at this point we've analysed hundreds and hundreds of deals. So, you can on them almost look and say, oh, that's not going to work for us. Right. Just based on what they're asking for. And you can also kind of tell that to, by the price per pound versus, sometimes the median income of the area. Right. I mean, are you going to be able to achieve the rent that it's going to, it's going to take to make that deal work. And if you're going to be maxing out your median income, then it's not going to work either.   Ben Suttles: So, a lot of the things that we look at, population growth, we look at job growth, all those things too. But one of the things that we also look at as the median income, right? And a lot of these is workforce housing, right? So, I mean, you look at, what's the, what's the average rent? We're usually doing the three-x income test. Whenever we're taking perspective tenants in, right? Like everybody should, and then you determine, what the median income level is and if you're going to be maxing that out, you're above that, then the first sign that something is going wrong, let's get ready to skip. They're going to stop paying rent, right? So, you want to make sure that you're under that, right? You don't want to; you don't want to be at the top of the market. Yes. Maybe they can keep up with it for a month or two where they're going to get behind. And so very, very cognizant of that.   Feras Moussa: And to add those, it's not that, if it's a lower income area, we won't buy a deal very well. It's really these are just kind of rules of thumb. And then from that, you start to work back, okay, well if it's a lower income area, can assume they are economic occupancy is going to be much slower. So, you should underwrite it that way. Right? Cause there's a deal to be had anywhere, right? I mean I'll buy any deal at the right price point, right? Assuming as long as it's, to me at least this has been new instead of a growing market. Right. And that's not a deal at f four worry about the city, essentially no one even wanted to live in that general area. But in terms of price points, in terms of, average incomes, all of that, it's really, again, depending on what price point are we buying it at.   James: So, let's say the rent and the price seems reasonable right? At the first sniff test, what's your next level sniff test? What do you guys do?   Feras Moussa: Then and actually started this. The thing I do before that is actually called the broker and just get there [inaudible 29:18].   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Right? And that's the first, usually, right? Because a lot of times there's more to this story, right? Is it, is it a partnership where you know, one of the sellers passed away and they're looking, you know, they're a little bit more motivated or is it a deal that just, the Bro, I've had brokers a little bit tell me these sellers are terrible operators, right? And you can kind of, and if you have a relationship with a broker, there'll be honest with you about that aspect. Right? Brokers are all, a lot of times brokers, I don't want to say always, but there'll always be, a lot of times we'll say, yeah, you know, you could do this and this and get, a $200 rent pop. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Take that with a grain of salt. But I'm looking for something that's kind of that ancillary information to help the deuce. Like, Hey, is there an actual opportunity to do, what's the value add that we can do is we can kind of take that into what we just talked about. Then kind of once, like you said, once you know the numbers make sense or the deals make sense, then you start to dig in and near. That's where we really do just to, go down to the numbers, right. Look at the t 12, look at where they are today on expenses. Look at where we think we will be on expenses. Where, what does the rent currently, right? What's the spread on just the rent, the market rents versus what their marketing right. Today. I mean kind of, we really starting to put the bigger picture together. Right. And then understanding is, hey, does this make sense at a high level? Right? Yes. That's us. Sorry, go ahead.   Ben Suttles: Oh, I was just going to say, what I mean, we don't even look at the OEM. Right. Do you know what I mean? We're going straight from our perspective, right. That just use your, you'll get, you'll get the skinny from the broker, right? Because they'll usually-- but the marketing packages is the marketing package. Right. And I feel like that sometimes skews people's numbers when they look in. Concentrate on that a little bit too closely. So, it's always best than if it passes your initial test and you talked to the broker and there might be something there and you just go straight to the spreadsheet analysis. Right. Because, I mean if you start trying to dissect what they're going-- what they have in terms of pro forma income and expenses, then you start getting that none of those numbers in your mind. And guess what, there, they're making those numbers work. So, we always, we always go straight to that and then only then do I then look at the OEM and I see how far apart we are. And usually, it's pretty significant. But, it's those classic sales tips, like, below replacement costs and all of these things that they love to say, that makes it sound so sexy.   James: Yes, its--   Ben Suttles: At the end of the day and it has to pencil out. It's all about the numbers.   James: Yes. I remember in one of the deals I never look at the OM until I close because I need a logo for that property. And I say where is the logo and then I called the broker, you understand the OM, I say yes.   Feras Moussa: Oh, you had the floor plan. Yes, we had that for the floor plan. You go back to the OM and grab the floor plan that [inaudible 31:56]--   James: Exactly.   Feras Moussa: --time and effort on.   James: Yes, yes, we did a floor plan and the logo from the OM, that's it.   Ben Suttles: There you go.   James: So, it's interesting. And so, the type of deals that you guys do, I mean, where do you categorize it? Value add deep value add or [inaudible 32:14] yield play or core type of tails.   Feras Moussa: I mean right now we're focused on value add. I mean we would like to do a more, really to me, the ideal deal for us now or given where we are given, our network, et cetera. It's really kind of that B minus space. Right? We've done the heavy value add, it's a lot of work. Right? And those skills have worked out. They performed, but for us, I mean it's just she consumes you, right to some degree. And so, we're trying to less of those and we try to vary it up. Right. Always have a value add going on, having a stabilized going on. Just cause from a bandwidth perspective, right, we can kind of handle one at a time, but we don't want to take on three big value add the one time because then he would get lost in that. And so, I think for us we're typically in that C plus B minus space is really the focus for us.   Ben Suttles: Yes, yes.   Feras Moussa: One day we'll do an ADL but not in, but not-- but it's about matching it to the right equity pool. Right. If we have equity that's okay with the lesser returns. Right. We can go do a B plus or a minus. But so far, we've been kind of in the C plus B minus space.   Ben Suttles: Yes. Yes.   James: Got It. Got It. So, what about that, that strategy? Do you guys do only agency Loan, Bridge, Bridge through an agency?   Ben Suttles: I think we're doing all this. It's really deals dependent. Right. Do you know what I mean? I think the bridge has gotten a little bit of a bad rap. I mean there's, there obviously you have to be careful with it, right? You have to understand that your exit strategy, you have to be able to hit those targets in terms of, especially if it's a value add, tell him the hair on it, which is, it's going to with a bridge, right? You got to be able to hit those timetables in terms of your construction, your rehab in order to refi out of it quickly. And then at the best price point that you can write, because obviously, you don't want to have to bring money to the table. So, we'll do a little bit of the bridge, but for the most part, where everyone, just like every other smart operator, you're looking for agency debt when you can. But at the end of the day, we're looking to maximize returns for our investors. And so sometimes, going bridge versus agency has been a better way in order to do that. And people understand that there's a little bit higher of risk tolerance with those. But we always get a three-year term with two years' extension. So, at the end of the day, it's still five years on a bridge that, it's not something like an 18-month deal. So, I think that that gives people a little bit of, they feel a little bit better about it as well. But we've done agency all the way up to 12 years too. So, it's a little bit about, just depends on the deal.   Feras Moussa: Yes. For anyone listening, I mean I think we have a Ph.D. in the agency space. Unfortunately, we've had issues that people that do 50 deals never hit. So, we've seen it all. And so, if anyone has any questions, feel free to reach out. But we've seen the good, the bad and the ugly on the dead space. So, it's, you kind of, you work through those problems, right? If you get the closing, which is the good news, but then you kind of learn from it and you know, start to figure out what are the things that could be learned from this to basically avoid the situation in the future. Right. We've had, we've really seen a variety of things. Unfortunately--   James: Oh, let's talk about--   Feras Moussa: --that's where Ben lost all this hair.   Ben Suttles: Just one. Just one lender, which I'll tell if you want to email me, I'll tell you which linear it was.   James: Okay, tell me the worst story with an agency, just let's just go--   Feras Moussa: The worst agency story. I'll tell you one, and this is one near and to you James. So, it's in San Antonio.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: San Antonio deal its a, a deal that pencils in really well. And for those of you that know on the agency side, right? With a standing loan, you can do what's called fully delegated, which means that fanny lets the dust lender, which in our case could be Arbor, could be haunted, it can be any variety of them. For us, it was an Arbor deal and lets them operate in the wrong capacity, right. To some degree. And so, there's kind of a box. As long as they're within the box, Arbor could approve the deal, no questions asked. Well yes, we're like three weeks from closing pretty much at the finish line. Money's in the bank. Well, we're already looking at the next field that we had to go on and then kind of going back, what happened was that because it's the San Antonio deal and the deal pencils in really, really well, right from a financial perspective, the lender said, well hey, we can go get your five years IO. And we didn't think much of it. Right. It was like, okay, that's fine. Well, at least we'll back out to where we are today because we run the road at one-year IO. Well, long story short, this deal essentially used to be on a watch list three years ago. The sellers are only deal in San Antonio. They struggled with it. Plus, it was kind of whenever they're in the midst of a lot of rehabs. So, he got on the watch list, it wasn't on the watch list the past few years. And that whole you, that market better than we do James. And that whole area has really turned around from where it was three years ago. But guess what, it was already flagged by Fannie and they just wanted to essentially get it off their books. Right. And so, this is something very, I actually did this just the other day where I, I was talking to a broker about a deal and asked him was the saber on a watch list.   Feras Moussa: That's something I've learned to ask now because and what sucks about it is that once a lender, a dus lender, this gets Arbor went to fanny, right? Once Fannie times in, Fannie is the authority, right?   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: Versus if we would have just not ever done that, we could have closed the deal agency with Arbor, no questions asked. And so, it's a very unique situation. I don't know anyone that's actually ever encountered that. Right. But these kinds of things do happen. And so just knowing that they can happen, figure on how much risk you want to take because we would have been happy with what we had-- what we could have closed. Right. We were happy with the one-year IO. That was great. That was fine. But it's your kind of get a little bit more than that and then now completely bag of worms. So.   James: Yes, I learn, even I learned about this watch list, last week when was looking at another dealer then someone says, Oh, I backed out because of watch list, I say what is that? Right? Then we realize there are so many other issues with the deal. Right? So that's crazy. Yes. I mean for listeners, just FYI most dus lenders, they have one-year authority on a delegated underwriting. So within, if they give one-year IO, they don't have to go back to Fannie Mae and get approval. But once they go above that they have to go to Fannie Mae. And a lot of things can change when you go to Fannie Mae.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, I have learned that there are different tiers. Right? So, there's the tier two, tier three. So, if you're at higher leverage that can only give you one. But if you're willing to go down to 65% they can actually approve 5 years IO, no questions.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: So, you start to learn. And again, why did I learn that from a different deal? So, start to understand really the mechanics of what's going on behind the scene. And this is where having the right mortgage broker makes all the difference, right? They can help steer you in the right direction and help catch some of these. So, I mean for the-- for the watch list, the sellers were actually more pissed that we were about the whole, they didn't think that was going to be an issue in terms of us getting the next one. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And they never thought to just close it. You don't think it's going to be an issue.   Ben Suttles: No, they thought it was off too.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: But, do you know what I mean? I think there's that just like, like our earlier part of the conversation. Right. You know, we're project managing these things, things are going to pop up. So, we were able to make it through that process--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --and still come out on top in terms of the debt. But yes, I mean we're always looking to maximize returns and risk and minimize risk for our investors. And I think that having this different background and different debt products and having a good experience with some of these different lenders really gives us a good broad overview of the debt market and which deals are going to make sense where, and I think that that's huge when you're looking at who to invest your money with, because know some people, let's be honest. So, they'll just go straight to Fannie, if it's not Fannie or if it's not Fannie then I'm not doing it. Right.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: But I think sometimes you're missing out on opportunities there as well.   James: So, wasn't, like three weeks before closing, didn't you guys had a rate lock at that time?   Feras Moussa: No, we're supposed to [inaudible 40:01] lock a few days later.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: Like little, they're just waiting on the final. Oh, because they went to Fannie, Fannie kind of asked-- this is where really, I think we could have-- it's about positioning the story. Right. Again, I think the lender just went in thinking that it's going to be easy down the middle because really that's what they told us. Right?   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: They didn't even bother. We had a great story for the deal, for the sponsorship team. They tried to do it retroactively and kind of wants Fannie comes in it's really hard to change. But we were literally at the point of rate locking and getting, being done with the steel. Like we will do, so.   James: Yes. [crosstalk 40:36].   Feras Moussa: You do full 360 and charge full 180 and change things and kind of Redo. So, in my mind, it was really, we did, it took us to close if get that deal done.   James: Yes, it's, yes, it's, it's a day just to do it at the end because you're almost at the closing table. Right. So,   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, so in that situation, just maybe to complete the story, right. The seller realized kind of what happened. They gave us more time, right? They gave us another 30 days they knew that wasn't really for lack of use or lack of anything that we did. And so, we're able to buy more time and then redo the process and kind of, get to where we needed to be.   James: So, did you do a different loan?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So that one we call back every investor because I mean we basically what we did Arbor realized the mistake that they made, which was they should not have gone to the lender, tell Fannie, they should have just closed. And so, they basically gave us a balance sheet loan, right? Which is like a bridge loan on their books that essentially, the short term just to get it off of Fannie's book, --   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --then in nine months. Right. So, for us, we kind of turned it into a value add reprice scenario. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And so, when that case, we will, nine months, 12 months, somewhere around there. Right. We're also pushing our NOI as hard as you can. We'll refi, pull equity out and get back into a panty permanent loan.   James: Got it.   Feras Moussa: And so, but the deal changed, right? And so, we had to call every investor, tell every investor here's what changed, here's what happened. Then thankfully pretty much everyone stayed in the deal. Right? So that kind of-- for us that it's a sigh of relief. But also, it's like, everyone just doubled down on us. Right? So, we're--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --going to get babysat through the finish line.   James: Yes, the amount of pressure for you to go, on the contact to rate lock it so much. Right. So, I mean, I don't know, I mean-- there's a lot of pressure on, responsibility. You have so much money tied, and you are under the gun and you have all your reputation out there. You are doing the deal, investors are looking at you, you are to be a leader. You have very strong leaders. So.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Yes, it's a lot of work.   Feras Moussa: Absolutely.   James: So, kind of back to value add, right? So, you guys do value add strategy. So, what's your, what do you think is the most valuable value add?   Ben Suttles: I think, ultimately, what tenants care most about, right? I mean, whenever you're doing value add, unfortunately, you have to cure a lot of [inaudible 42:52]. You have to do a lot of things that you not going to get the best return on your investment on. But the two things that tenants care about, first being their interiors. So, what was actually in my unit, the second thing that they care about is amenities, right. Probably a distance second. Most of the time with the workforce housing, they're caring about what their units look like. And I think that's where you're going to get the best return on your investment when you're doing value add. And then you can obviously update and add on amenities as a secondary thing to that. But unfortunately, with those value adds, you got to do things like roofs and HVAC replacement and other things that just people just say, hey if I'm renting from you, I expect that to be working. So, you know, but you might be spending a hundred or two hundred grand on some of this stuff, right? So, your return on investment is almost nothing, but you have to do it. So, you've got to balance those two things, right? You've got to work in curing that deferred maintenance along with how do I push the NOI and the revenue side by, really updating the property for the way that the tenants are looking at it. So, I mean that's kind of how we look at every value-add play that we do. A combination of those two things.   Feras Moussa: So, James, is your question really specific about ROI? Like what are the things that we putting kind of deferred maintenance aside, what other things would we do to really try to maximize our return?   James: Yes, other than deferred maintenance, like the roof and all the big stuff [crosstalk 44:21].   Feras Moussa: Yes, so I mean it's, its properties specific, right? It's really depending on the asset, what it looks like currently and what is the market doing right now? That said from our experience, right? The most common thing, flooring, two-tone paint, right? And pimping out the kitchen some degree. Right? And you can go as crazy as replacing all the cabinets or you really replacing the front or even just putting fixtures, right? Like for us, fixtures are definitely cheap. Easy to do. It gives a different, pop to the thing, right? Flooring almost always, painted and really two-tone paint. It's important. And the other thing too that we like to do is really putting a backsplash. You can do backsplashes with this kind of stick on backsplash, really, really cheap to do per unit. And it gives the kitchen, which is usually known the seventies, eighties build kitchen, a bit of Pop, right? It gives it something to modernize it. Right? We didn't go as far as putting granted in. Right. But you are putting that in kind of coupled with a resurfacing. It actually looks pretty good. And then, the obvious is white and black appliances. Right?   James: So, let's say--   Feras Moussa: And that's all, white, black or aluminium.   James: Let's say how the interiors, right. So, let's say you guys lost for some reason you thought you had 100% of your interior budget, but now you need like 50% of the budget. What would you focus on, on the interior?   Ben Suttles: Yes, if the property needed any flooring or paint. Right? [crosstalk 45:38] Those are important things to think.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Yes, I mean, you got appliances too right, but I mean appliances, you're going to be two x in your interior budgeted, just adding those in. But a lot of people they take, there's a price difference between white and black appliances are really not, but there's a perception that they're a little bit higher quality. So, you can even do that too. Right? You got to replace the appliances, but you don't have a whole big budget for that. You can just go from white to black to and I think that adds a nice pop too.   James: Yes, that's a really good point. I mean I realize a lot of times if you give them even white, really nice appliances, people are happy. Right?   Ben Suttles: No. Yes, you can do, right. It's-- I mean, but like, you'll see people like, they're just ecstatic that they've got black appliances. Right now, the market is about the same in terms of pricing.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: So, but it's just a perception thing or just, like I said, backslash 150 bucks.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 46:38].   Feras Moussa: Let me turn the question around to you, James. Would you, the same question to you, right, would you do the same thing, or would you do something else?   James: So, we, so for me, I think my most valuable value add would be just giving them good management, right? So, there are so many bad operators out there, which is mismanaging not respecting the tenants, not taking care of it. So, we just want to make sure, really good management that's on the management side. But if you go back to the interiors, I would say, of course, we do the appliances and we do the painting and flooring. That's what we would, I would say the most, so, but I think, a lot of people just love having good management people who take care of them. Everything--   Ben Suttles: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they want to feel comfortable and who miss their right. People that understand what's going on. I mean, that's to me, and that's why for all of our properties, we're big people, putting, doing parties, doing tenant events, pretending retention vents. Because from the operations side, right. This is, you have the backdoor and you have the front door, right? You don't have people renewing, right. You're going to have delinquency problems, not a delinquency problem, you're going to have an oxygen problem, right? And so really keeping people happy, renewing, right. Well, then it makes it easier on the front end to start the push friends, right? Because you have people that are enjoy working there, living there. Right. You know, for another 10, $20. Sure enough, it's more than the cost of moving. Right. And so that's absolutely.   James: Yes. I think at the end of the day the tenants just want to be felt appreciated. That you just-- so many properties out there. You don't have to be being mismanaged.   Ben Suttles: Yes, clean, quality, safe housing, man. I mean, it seems so easy and the way that I describe it, but so many operators, I've just run some of these properties in the ground and they don't take care of it. Right? And so, the tenants, therefore, don't consider home and they don't take care of it. So when you get a good operator, I know you get a good management company in there and they showed that they're taking care of the property, then by default you're going to get more loyal 10 tenants, you're going to have people that are going to be more apt to take a renewal increase, cause they like, they like coming home again. Right? It's home.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Versus just a place just to sleep.   James: Yes. Yes. I think one of the episodes, maybe episode five or six, I interviewed, Addie Lauren from California strategic alliance and he had been doing this for 30 years, more than 1 billion in a transaction. And he told me very simple, clean, basic and functional quality is what his motto is that's it. Right?   Ben Suttles: You don't have to get; you don't have to be creative about it. Right. I mean, you know, the space that we plan is essentially workforce housing. I mean, across our whole entire portfolio, our average rents are less than a thousand bucks, right. So, folks aren't looking for crazy amenities and crazy things even in their interiors. They just want a good quality place to come home to and then, and the management side is a big piece of that too.   James: Correct, correct, correct.   Ben Suttles: Yes, she bought up a good point.   Feras Moussa: And then another thing too with good management, right. You get lower delinquency. So, for us, I mean that's night and day. We had a deal that we, one of our heavy value add deals where essentially where we were, I went back and looked at numbers July versus where we are today. We have three times more revenue collected than we will, we did before total, like literally straight revenue you and that's a combination of, cutting back the delinquency, bringing units, align, updating. But I mean, it’s, once people know that it's, someone taking care of the property and enjoying it, people want to stay there. All right. People are eating $200 rep push because guess what, this place has been completely turned around. It's more family oriented and even just bringing more families on board helps to come back for delinquency. So, for us really looking at how do you build that community and some people really cheap about it, but like, hosting these parties is you, I mean, do the math, right? How much does it cost to go get a hundred hot dog and a hundred burgers? Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I mean it's very, very cheap, right? To be there and grill it out, have like a little patio, you know, a party, whatever it is. These things are almost, you know, half of the units rented a month, right. It's kind of thing. And so, they're almost rounding errors, errors where we are, but guess what? It changes the dynamics in the property. And so, I mean, some people don't really-- people are very short-sighted. I see. And really it has a much bigger kind of longer-term impact.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: And I think going along with the value add, right? I mean, you know, a lot of what we're doing is repositioning the property too, which is kind of where you're going with this James. Is bringing in better management. You're getting a better tenant profile at the same time too. So that's part of the value-add strategy as well, so once you, and once you show them that you care, you've got tenants in there that care than the properties just starts performing. There's a whole-- the energy shifts are palpable. Do you know what I mean? You go from a bad energy deal to a very good energy deal and you have less delinquency. Yes. Better occupancy people more apt to take a renewal increase and you can, you can rent that out more easily because people that prospective tenants that are walking around fuel that same thing too. So that's a huge part of what we do. We don't like to focus the value add just on the what the aesthetic of the property to, it's how you manage it and tenants that you have in there as well. A huge part of it.   James: So, you guys operators, which is the definition. What I mean is very active asset management because you know the details of what's happening on the side by side. Right. So, is that a correct assumption? Right? So.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: How do you guys manage this third-party property management companies?   Feras Moussa: Man, that's, that's part of the secret sauce. But I mean, it's really is nothing to it. There's nothing secret about it. So, we have an asset manager now that we've brought in who very experienced, 20 plus years if families a property, he manages family really. And so that's starting to help, but we plan to keep a pulse in general on what's going on in every deal. And so, for us, it's really about putting systems in place with each of your property managers, right? And having accountability. Right? And so, we have not brought in property management in house, but we've been successful with managing our property managers. Right? Yes. And it's a partnership, right? It's not like they're your employee. You really need to get on the level of like where they understand like, hey, we're partnering, we're growing together. Right? And so, they've seen that, and you know, yes. Identify the good property managers from the batch. So, there's a whole betting cycle. I don't want to get too far into, but really, we have the weekly calls, we have the weekly reports come in at a certain time. We have certain expectations that within a few days we expect them to follow up with hearing all the action items and did these all get done? Yes or no? Why not? Right? And how do we, I can keep them accountable, so.   Ben Suttles: Yes, it's all about obviously keep it to an agenda, keep into the processes that we put in place to templates and checklists. And we're very upfront when we get into a partnership with these property management companies that this is what we expect, that this is when we expect it. Right. And then we, like we said, we keep them accountable through--   Feras Moussa: And this is the format that we expect, that these are the numbers that we need and sent out.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Just to help us track everything the way we want. And then you learn from it. Right. We're not perfect. It's not, it's an iterative process, right. Anytime we identify something that we can improve from one property manager, we applied to the portfolio. The nice thing is really is that having different property managers, we see the strengths and weaknesses of each property manager and you figure out how do we make them all better and so what things can we do across the board to make everything better?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: So, can you name like three things that you guys always look out for in the property management performance? When you realize that someone of these three things is not going well, things are not going right.   Feras Moussa: Oh Man. I would say renewals is the lowest hanging fruit. Look and understand what's going on in renewals and how important it is because early renewals are indicative of a lot of other things. Are they following up with tenants for the renewal? Right. Did they really? That's just a-- that's the number that you can kind of look at and realize that there must be other problems going on. I would say that's my answer. I don't know about you, Ben.   Ben Suttles: No, I think, yes, I think you're right, man. Totally. Yes. I think my biggest, my biggest hanging out in delinquency because it's like that's the properties money. Like you know, go out there, how are you going to collect the rent that is owed? And so, when you start seeing that slipping and we're increasing, that's my big red flag that hey, there's something going on here, right? As our management on site, not, not doing their job, or are we getting bad tenants in there that aren't capable of paying the rent that we're asking of them may be what's the, there's a, there's usually a bigger problem going on, but yes, I mean all of these, these metrics we expect on our Monday morning report. And so, we're looking at each of these things weekly and we're also having follow-up calls throughout the week to either our asset management or asset manager or us or having calls with the property manager to track these things. So, it's not like a weekly thing. And that we don't have any kind of insight into what's happening for the rest of the week. If there's a challenge, we're having a follow-up call that week about it as well.   James: Okay. So, do you convert like renewal to percentage and look at, give that as a goal, that what you guys delinquency at two percentage and give that as a goal?   Feras Moussa: It's a balancing act depending on how hard you're pushing. Right? So, it's not like you can just say, hey, we expect 50% renewals across the board. I think it's really, it's deal specific and I mean we're looking at renewals, we're looking at least as we're looking at delinquency, right? We're looking at how much traffic came in versus how much leases got closed and then going in and really both on leases, we didn't close. What's the story? What's the story? What's the story? Sometimes there are cases where you, maybe you, no, you can go save that, that person. Similarly, on the delinquency, we go through what's this person's story? Are they going to pay? Cause really in Atlanta, our delinquency is higher than it isn't and Texas, right? It's just by nature of the market. And so, you, you kind of need to be more flexible in one market versus the other. And so really go through and understand what's the story behind me. Just like whenever we, you asked me earlier about the properties, how we analyse it, you're looking for that story. And so, we talked through each one of these and figure out what makes sense to kind of do moving forward. Because to us, it is very different between different properties.   Ben Suttles: Yes, and I, I would say targeted for delinquency, right? It's always zero. And do you know what I mean? So, the property management companies will say, oh yes, we got zero across our whole portfolio, I'm like, yes right. Do you know what I mean? Not, not the workforce housing stuff. So, you got to be realistic. But I would say your target, there's probably one to 2%, you know, on a stabilized property if you're dealing in the workforce housing space that we are and so that's usually the metric that we're pushing towards. But on the renewal side too. One thing I want to point out, right? When you're doing a heavy value add and you've got a lot of interior budget to kind of burn through and you have units that you need to update too, right? You're not going to be chasing after those folks as aggressively as you would on a stabilized property because maybe you don't have a lot of down units are a lot of vacancies and you need to free up, you know, units actually update them, right? So, you're not going to be as aggressive in renewing those folks. So, we've been able to connect like Feras says, right? I mean, you don't want to, you're not going to burn that bridge completely. So, you're constantly looking at occupancy, versus how much, how many units are we supposed to be turning a month in order to hit that target of, 60, 70, 80 units a year. Right. Because people have, people aren't moving out. What are we going to do? We can't sit on the money and there's usually a finite amount of time that we can, we can actually use that cash. So.   Feras Moussa: To expand on Ben's point too. It's almost like, we have a deal where we almost went the opposite. We don't want renewal. And what I mean by that is that one of our deals in Atlanta, we've pushed rents an insane amount on this deal. Like we're probably up 30% honestly, you know, 30 40% and we still have 98% occupants are choke when they're property managers at one day on the call, it felt to 97 and a half. And then, we called her out on it like, Oh, you're at 97 and a half, you're not a 98% anymore. And she's like, no, no, I just had someone who fucking renewed. She's back at 98, but in that deal, we have interior budgets that we need to go spend. We were literally just sitting on the side-lines. Right. Trying to, so you were kind of that balancing act is because we knew what was below market. Right. And figure out, where can we land on to where we have some people not renewing and we can go in and actually spend the money to even get, you know, that better push.   James: Yes. I think you need to look for where is the base rank, where's the base rank before you really go and spend all that rehab money. Otherwise, you can't be spending, spending, spending.   Ben Suttles: Exactly.   James: You don't know where's your base. Where is your starting point? Right. So, yes, I've had properties where we didn't even spend, we have the money yet, but we already bumped up just because people like it just because we are just a better operator than the previous guy. Right. So, --   Ben Suttles: And you'll get that. Right. Do you know what I mean? You'll just, you're amazed that how much they'll take it on renewal too. And that's great. You know, I mean, I just think it's a balancing act sometimes, but yeah, you have that, you have to kind of see where the market is and, and obviously be strategic with those dollars as well.   James: Yes, correct. Correct. That's right. So, can you give us some advice on how do you choose third-party property management? Because you guys are going in multiple markets, right? How would you give them expectations? Because a lot of, I'm sure a lot of property management company don't like, active asset managers. I couldn't control, [inaudible 59:57] I guess.   Ben Suttles: Well, hey now. [crosstalk 01:00:01].   Feras Moussa: Ben. I think, yes, I think.   James: [inaudible 01:00:04].   Feras Moussa: Well I will say though all of our property managers literally, you ask them, they say we're one of their favourites.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: So, let's not because we're active or inactive. [crosstalk 01:00:15]. Well, it's, we're doing maybe some of it, but it's more so that we're realistic. Right. I think what I was surprised to hear from them as a lot of people will just sell their property may, here's your budget, here's what you have to go, you know, accomplish. And sometimes it's not realistic. Right. I said before any of your deals because we've already worked on a budget with a property manager, we have an agreement on what that looks like, what the plan is, and we're not just picking numbers out of a hat just to make our deal work. Right. And really kind of do it the other way around. And then, yes, whenever issues come up, we're both, I mean, I hope people on the audience, I get this impression. Ben and I are pretty level headed, pretty easy to work with. And so, they understand things happen. And so, the property management companies, at least they enjoy because we're easy to get a hold of. We understand what's going on the deal. And we're realistic. And so, because I've asked them and pretty much all of them have said that we're one of, we're one of their favourites. Right. And so, --   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Now, that said, maybe to answer your question, Ben, do you want to answer? Do you want me to answer?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I, I think, I mean, you've got to be stern, but at the same time, you can have a friendly relationship with them at the same time. Right. But I think it's all about setting the right expectations and just betting them in general. I think it's, it's all you usually start off with referrals. Right?   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: But I think some of the big things are as, go take a look at some of their properties too. Go secret shop those deals, so you're going to say, okay, hey you, you're a good referral on whatever market. Right. Give me three of the assets that you, and then you fly out there and you go shopping. What does the property look like? Is it clean? Is the management, is the leasing agent and the manager, are they friendly, are they knowledgeable of the property? Are they good or are they leasing it properly? All of these things go back to the property management side and, and as long as that's, that's kind of coalesces with what you've heard about them and everything. That is good. Obviously, the fee has to be online and those roles have, the references have to be there. But I think the biggest, the biggest asset test for us is, vetting the deals that they currently have, and do we like what we see, and they call them out, right? I mean, if they don't, if there's a deficiency saying, hey we went to Xyz property and there's trash on the ground, what's the deal with that and then how do they respond to that? Because that's going to be, -- there are always challenges, but it’s how you respond to those challenges is what I'm looking for on the property management side.   James: Yeah.   Feras Moussa: And then a couple of things too, just to add, I mean it's about what's kind of, what's the impression and feeling you're getting from them? Right. And, and working on a budget with a property management company is actually a great exercise to understand how they look at things and how are they going to meet what you're looking for. And I mean that in multiple, always, right? A, are they, -- is their budget realistic? Right. And B, is there pushback? I mean we actually like when they push back, right? If we say, well we think we can run payroll at x amount and they're like, well no, payroll is going to be this amount. Here are the 10 properties we have nearby to prove it. Right? That's good. Versus we've had property managers that are essential yes people, right? That'll say yes to everything and that's not at all what you want because we need something realistic. We're not trying to, we have millions of dollars at stake, we have other people's money. We're not here to just take a gamble. So, looking at that and kind of what we've found success in is really the people that are in that five to 15,000-unit range, right? The 40,000 guys in too much, they don't care about you. The guys that are smaller, there's just a lot of them. You know this first-hand. There's a lot of back offices that need to happen for a successful property management company. Right. And so, we found that sweet spot seems to be that five to 15 and then to where there our portfolio is enough volume for them, right? That we kind of get that professional preferential treatment where needed and at the same time, right, they're developed enough to be able to, kind of take on and succeed with it.   James: Got It. Got It. Very interesting, very interesting. So, let me ask some question about more the personal side, right? So maybe each one of you can add in on your own site. So, what's, what do you think is the top three things that are the secret sauce, for the success that you guys have been having in terms of closing deals?   Ben Suttles: All right. Go for it man.   Feras Moussa: Partnerships and relationships, right? Most important, first and foremost, right? Being willing to partner with brokers, property managers, other partners, partners, right? On the GP. People that can help us, would the deal, right? Whether it's helping with construction, hel

The Achieve Wealth Podcast Host: James Guest: Ben Label Title : Underwriting Phoenix with Ben Leybovich   James:  Hey, welcome audience to Achieve Wealth Podcast. This is where we look at operators around the countries and learn from them. And I really appreciate you being here just because you have thousand and one things to do somewhere else. But listening to us or listening to me on this podcast gives me great pleasure to be with you all. So today I have a very nice guest and I would say a well-known guest in the bigger pockets and outside of bigger pockets community as well. Today we have Ben Label, which is from Phoenix; hey, Ben, thanks for coming.   Ben: How are you? It's a pleasure to be with you. I do a lot of these podcasts, but I have fun every time.   James: Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, we want to go a bit more into detail, so I'm sure you've gone into a great line in other podcasts as well, but there are a few things that we look for. I mean, I'm an operator. We would like to go into a lot more details, into the numbers and the strategies and all that just because we want to learn and my audience want to learn and we listen to podcasts to learn, right? Because everybody's spending the time to listen to each one of those podcasts and there are thousands of those out there but I think it's important that we learn from each other. Right? So, Ben has been almost investing in multifamily residential real estate for over a decade and he has been on numerous times featured in Bigger Pockets Podcast. I've been following him since the very early days when I started in single family and I've learned a lot of things from Bigger Pockets.   He has been featured on like three different episodes in Bigger Pockets, he is also the creator of Cashflow of Freedom University and author of House Hacking. He and his partner, Sam Grooms, has been a buying deals in Phoenix market. I think they close on 98 units and recently you close on 130 units, is that right? Ben: 117, it's 117, last week we purchased.   James: 117. Okay. So why don't you tell us about yourself to our audience on aspects that I've missed out about introducing you?   Ben: Well, thank you again for inviting me, I appreciate it; I like doing these things. Who doesn't like to talk about themselves, especially when you were so good-looking like me and I guess most often do, it's fantastic, right? Sam is like, not showing up for this, he knows how it's going to go. I don't know, my story has been very kind of public, through Bigger Pockets and elsewhere. Folks, you know, my website, justaskBenwhy.com, my stories are all over that website.   I basically was informed that I have a medical condition called multiple sclerosis when I was in college. I'm a professional fiddle player, but I wasn't able to do that because it's kind of hard to do that when your hands don't work like they're supposed to. So it was a kind of a long path toward discovering some way of making money that wasn't reliant upon my physiology to the extent that music would have been. And I kind of,  through zigging and zagging through this rationale, I ended up eventually in real estate. I bought a few single families first, figured out that I didn't like it, went onto small multifamily, syndicate larger apartments today, with my partner Sam Grooms in Phoenix. And that's kind of my story.   James: Yeah. Hey, thanks Ben. So I remember you, were in Ohio and you moved to Phoenix, what is the reason for that transition?   Ben: Well, there are many reasons. Like everything in life, I think there are synergies that need to take place in order for things to really work and gel and work properly. For one thing, I'm 43 years old, I was 40 years old at the time we relocated. My mentor, who is no longer with me, once upon a time told me, whatever you're going to do, do it by the age of 40. If you don't do it by the age of 40, you're not going to do it in your life. It's a lot easier to keep the ball rolling that's already going than it is to start the ball rolling at the age of 40, midlife basically.   So that was one kind of driving force is that I felt like Ohio wasn't the place where I want it to be but you know, the driving force for that timing happening the way that it did was really, I was cognizant of my age and I just wanted to offer myself and my family a good opportunity, [05:42inaudible] start in a better world. That's one thing.   The second thing is I wanted better weather, I wanted blue skies, palm trees; I wanted low property taxes, I wanted a good business environment, I wanted a lot of growth. If I never see snow in my life is going to be too soon, I'm completely done with snow. I wanted educational opportunities for my children that I simply wasn't able to attain where we were in Ohio. All of those things, just kind of synergize together and we moved so far, everything's working out absolutely beautifully. My kids are having fabulous educational opportunities and my wife has been a very successful Real estate agent; she makes a lot of money. I am syndicating buildings that it's not something I could do in Ohio just because I wouldn't allow myself when we talk about the underwriting, we can touch on why I wouldn't do it in Ohio or Midwest in general. And then, my job as a function of sitting down by my pool and working my way through some spreadsheets and making some offers and my life is a beautiful thing right now. So that's how and why we ended up in Phoenix.   James: Yeah. Let's talk about markets in a short while. So once you moved to Phoenix, I think you met Sam here and you guys started a partnership, right? So my first question is, why do you want to partner up? And second is, how did you choose the partner or how did you choose Sam and what are the skills that you guys see that was complimenting?   Ben: Sure. Well, first of all, the reason I wanted to be in Phoenix is because I want to be in a growth market. We buy only in Phoenix because it is a very, very serious growth market and I happen to be very bullish on it and see quite a bit of runway still. Now, for instance, we took a look at Texas because Texas, everybody likes Texas, but Texas was a market that started recovering like 12 years ago so it is a very seasoned recovery at this point. There are other places, Phoenix among them that is a younger cycle still. So I feel because of that and a lot of other, be it income growth, rent growth, occupancies, a lot of other metrics are just looking better to me in Phoenix than in a lot of other markets so that's why in Phoenix.   The way we met is I was putting a deal together that didn't materialize, it fell apart, but Sam was going to be one of the investors as a limited partner in that deal. It was also a red D and after the fact, after the thing fell apart. Well, actually before the thing fell apart, he called my attention to the fact that I had a mistake in my underwriting. It wasn't a very serious mistake, but it was an oversight on my part and like nobody finds mistakes in my underwriting. So I'm like, who the hell is this guy and how is it that you know? So I started looking into him and the thing about him was he took the offering memorandum and he milked the spreadsheets to reverse engineer my offering memorandum and he found an inconsistency that I had missed. And I was just like, wow! So we had lunch and when that deal didn't materialize, the two of us just kind of got together.   He's a CPA with SCC reporting background, so he obviously has a lot of strengths that are complementary and scalable, complementary to mine. He didn't have operational experience, but he had a lot of bookkeeping and accounting and paperwork wise, corporate level, institutional level experience. And he's obviously a very strong underwriter because spreadsheets are like his bloodline. So that worked and that's why it worked. And the main reason that works, because I like him a lot and I trust him. I don't have to worry about him stabbing you in the back. I would be amazed that ever happened and I don't believe it, he's just a good person. So that's how that worked and that's why we're in Phoenix, kind of the high level, tips of the trees; we like the market and that's why we're together because we have a very complimentary skill set. James: Good. Good. So let's go down into a little more details into the deals that you guys do. So you have told me why Phoenix. So at a high level, Phoenix did go through a huge upswing and the downswing when on the previous market cycle of market correction in 2008, so aren't you worried about that? [10:41inaudible] I think you froze.   Ben: Yeah, we froze up a little.   James: Okay, go ahead. Yeah, I can edit that out. So did you hear my question?   Ben:  You're freezing up again. Yeah.   James: Okay. So nothing now it's good. So my question is, Phoenix did go through a huge downturn, it was a huge swing in 2008 so aren't you worried about Phoenix going through that again?   Ben: You're freezing up, James. Breaking up real bad.   James:  I'm not sure what's happening. Is it good?   Ben: It's good now.   James: Okay. Let's see.   Ben: No, freezing up again.  Wow!   James: Really?   Ben: Okay, you're back now.  Okay, let's try it again.   James: So let's go into the details of the market. Phoenix went through a huge downturn during the last 2008 crash, the real estate and the economy crashed so aren't you worried about that?   Ben: No because Phoenix today is a different market from Phoenix 10 years ago. So Phoenix 10 years ago was very heavily reliant on construction. A lot of the GDP in the state and Phoenix, in particular, was all about construction. Construction is like 10% of our economy today. We have a very diversified economy, meaning; tech, banking, health-care are the three kinds of big industries, they're very well diversified. So additionally, the population growth that we experienced in Phoenix prior to the last cycle was all driven by a snowbird housing. There was a lot of housing being built for people from the Midwest, from Canada. Well, what happens when the economy crashes is these people lose nothing but just dropping the bag and making themselves scarce so we had a lot of foreclosures because of that. The dynamics are completely different now because of the population growth, while we still have people coming in, snowbirds, but we have a lot more true retirement. So this isn't a second home, it's actually the first home for a lot of people that are relocating here. We also still have snowbirds, but by and large, our population growth is driven by economic growth. We're located in a place where you have California over here, Texas over there and Mexico over here, top 20 economies in the world and we're within a day's drive so it's a good place to be in terms of commerce and trade and all of that. And then there are little things like, listen, 20 years ago the HVAC units couldn't even keep up with 115-degree weather and today it's just really a non-issue at all can so life in Phoenix has become more comfortable.   The infrastructure is very new because the whole place is new. The property taxes are extremely low as compared to the Midwest or Texas. The regulatory environment is very friendly to business and as California experiences what it experiences, we are certainly benefiting with x coming out of California and we are one of the places that they're going, Seattle being another one, Texas being another one, but they're definitely coming here. So the economy is very much more diversified than it was prior to the last crash. So that's kind of the big picture view of why would answer no, I'm not, I mean, I'm always concerned. People ask me, what are you afraid of? I'm afraid of everything but you have to be logical about how you kind of respond to things and look at facts. And the facts are that nationwide, last I read, average apartment rent stands at $1,470 per month; in Phoenix, we're at 1070. Maricopa county, which encompasses all of Phoenix and surrounding MSA is the number one growth county in the entire country.   Phoenix is the number two growth city in the entire country. We now have a population of 5 million so we're number five largest city in the country. And with the proper regulatory environment, the low taxes on property, all of those things, insurance costs are lower because we don't have hurricanes, we don't have fires, we don't have all the nonsense right? We don't have the freezing pipes in the middle of the winter, we don't have any of that stuff so there's a lot of positives. So the question people are asking is, hey, here's this growth market. Our rent growth in 2018 clipped at 8.2 %.   James: Wow! That's huge.   Ben: Well that's because we're 1070 and nationwide, you're at 1470. There's a 25% delta in the highest growth market in the country so you are asking yourself, why? Basically, you're saying, why would an average rent in like Cincinnati, Ohio cost more than it does in Phoenix, which has the good weather, all the growth and all of the income growth and all of the job growth and everything and the population growth? So that's why the investors are asking themselves, can Phoenix organically catch up to the national averages? Like forget surpassing the average, can we catch up to the national?   And if you say yes, it's because you see what's happening economically. If you say yes, then if you deploy your capital at five cap and you just sit on it until that process kind of happens on your basis, you're at six and a half gap three or four years later without having to do any value-ads. So this is why the cap rates are so compressed in Phoenix is because people are just making a play on the fact that Phoenix has undervalued. For the type of economic prowess that is currently taking place in Phoenix, it's just undervalued; rents are undervalued, property is expensive relative to the rents. But if you consider the prospects of rents going up, if you look at Marcus and Millichap, they're predicting this year at 6.2%; if you look at Colliers, they are over 7% so again, depending on who you look at. I think we're going to be closer to 7% just because we have such delta and because of what I am personally experiencing in this environment.   We just have a lot of upside, the ceiling is very high. Juxtapose this against Austin, which is stalling out at this point, it is a very seasoned market. The rent growth is stalling out, the vacancies are taking up, so now it's Texas, so can it continue being Texas for the next five years? For all I know, yes, but given the choice to be in a younger cycle such as Phoenix or to be in a seasoned cycle, but in a very strong location, historically that's proven itself, I don't know, that's where people kind of make their bed, I guess and make their beds. I like Phoenix, I'm bullish on Phoenix and I'm not even looking to any place else because if you can be in Phoenix, why would you look at anything else?   James: Yeah, that's exactly my point as well. I'm in Texas and I'd rather invest in my backyard even though it's competitive over here. But in your backyard, you have a lot of control. You can go and drive by and see it compared to somewhere else. I mean, real estate is so localized, it's important for you to know your own back yard. So coming back to the sub-market, how do you choose the sub-market, is there a specific preferring for sub-market compared to the deals itself?   Ben: I don't really worry about sub-markets because I don't buy buildings, I buy stories. So if there's a good story for a specific building, because all it is is that you are looking for a delta, the money is always in the delta. So if you can purchase the building here, but the story suggests that the building,  the future valuation is going to be recognized here, then that's the delta I am paying for, that's what I'm buying. I'm not actually buying the cash flow, I'm not a cash flow investor when I syndicate these things. Cash-flow is there as a pathway to generating wealth and generating equity but that's it. There are not cash flow investments because you can't drive the IRR on cash flow, it's discounted too much over time and you need the appreciation. The appreciation is in Delta and the delta is in the story.   So we bought a Kenyan 35 and that's half a mile away from a university, a Grand Canyon University that grew from 2000 students to 20,000 students in 10 years. Received public status Accreditation, is investing $1 billion into their campus, gentrifying everything around them, of course, as usually happens with the universities when they grow and they're going to be at 30,000 students within next five years. So I'm buying a building half a mile away, that's my story there. I buy another one over here that is in the middle of a huge redevelopment and rejuvenation by the city. The city is deploying a lot of capital. There's a lot of class A infrastructure coming in, both in terms of retail and office space and everything else. So I buy this class C building, it's surrounded by all this class A stuff. It's uniquely positioned to be able to compete with class A on finishing textures when I'm done remodeling, but at a much lower basis. So my rents don't have to be anywhere near where the class A rents are and so, it's a story, it's always a story.   What is happening economically that is going to give my building desirability that is uncommon at the basis that I will be at. So the sub-market itself doesn't really, I mean, yeah, I guess there are places you wouldn't want to go, but we wouldn't look in those places because nothing is happening in those places. The whole point of where we want to buy buildings is because things, good things are happening in that location, that's why we want to buy a building there, especially in this season cycle.   James: Yeah. So what you're saying is there are places that you wouldn't even look at it, right? It's basically a sniff test. Yeah, this area, I'm not looking at it.   Ben: Well, there's area and there's a building. I mean, I get these emails, 100 a week and the vast majority of them go into the trash before they're even opened. And of those open, vast majority go into the trash and that's got to do with age, quality, construction features because you can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. You can put a gold plated toilette in a pig, it's still a pig. Because of what it is, where it is, it's gonna attract the audience that it's going to attract, there's nothing you can do with it and I don't want those buildings like that.   I want the building, which inherently the bones of it are just something that's not coming through in a recognizable way, shape, and form for the marketplace. But if I put some money and energy into this asset, I can bring back what it already is. I'm not trying to take a pig and make it into a unicorn. I'm trying to make a unicorn that's been completely messed up and it looks like a pig, but it's a unicorn, it's not a pig. I just have to re-sculpt it, redo it, I have to clean it up, improve and then the market will see it for what it is, which is a unicorn. That's what I want and that's a function of both location and the asset itself.   James: Yeah, I mean, so I think what you're describing is what I would describe as building upside. So I look for deals where I know today I can go and just improve on it; either by capital or reducing expenses and just realize that upside that has been hidden inside that building and that's a lot of it in multifamily, right? And it just you're to find that kind of deals. It's hard to find that kind of deal, but that is the real deal, right? Compared to buy [24:23inaudible]    Ben: Right. Then it's a needle in a haystack. In fact, I mean, if you are not doubling, almost practically doubling your NOI in the first three years, you are not buying the right kind of building because that's what it takes in my experience is almost doubling the NOI in three years.   James: Yup. So let's go to underwriting. So where are you getting your deals, are you getting from brokers?   Ben: Brokers; they're off-market but they're brought to me by brokers. James:  So why do they come to you?   Ben: Because I close.   James:  Okay. No, there must be, I mean brokers do a lot of off-market but they look for qualified buyers, right? So especially people who have done deals with them so maybe...   Ben: Right, so that's why, and I mean, even if I didn't do a deal with this broker---I don't know, I don't want to drop names because I don't want to but the national brokers, one of them reached out to me yesterday because even before we closed last week on the last one, somehow everybody already knows that we're going to close on it. And so these guys started coming out of the woodwork. Well, this schmuck emails me, he calls me twice in a row, he says, Oh yeah, I got an off-market property for you. I said, okay, go ahead and email me the nondisclosure agreement, I will sign it and email me the stuff. Well, he emails this property to me; well another broker already showed it to me two months ago, not requiring any kind of nondisclosure.   It was a pig; it was the very thing that we're describing, the 'don't do'. It's the wrong shape, it's the wrong footprint, it's the wrong mechanical layout, it's the wrong age, it's the wrong location; It's the wrong everything. And these guys call you and they say, well, you know, you can get it for 75 per door. While I'm like, I would rather pay a hundred a door but get quality, that's going to be worth 180 when I'm done with it, rather than paying 75 per door because whatever money I put into it, it's still going to be worth 75,000 per door when I'm done because the market has decided this is a pig. It's worth 75 per door, that's it. There's nothing you're going to do to move that hurdle and so you get a lot of that.   But you also get some serious brokers. Like the biggest brokers in Phoenix is not national brokers, they are local, but they're the biggest by volume. They do the most deals in the apartment space and those guys bring me deals, they're deals, and they're not the only ones, other people do as well. We've tried to go after some deals with other brokers, we came really close. We weren't able to, for one reason or another, to execute those deals, somebody else got it or whatever. But sometimes brokers have deals and they're off-market deals. The question of, what's it gonna take to get those deals? I just don't have an answer. It's all about relationships and I'm going to have to convince somebody that you are worth having a conversation with and that you have a good chance of executing. Obviously, it gets easier immediately after the first deal closes, immediately.   James:  Just because of the credibility.  Let's say today a broker sends you an OM, right? So some random broker and he said it's a deal and you know it's not a pick, right? So, you know there's something more I need to do my secondary inspection here or my secondary underwriting here, right? So how would you go about underwriting the deal? Ben: Well, the first and most important thing in the underwriting process is to place after renovated rents because if you mess that up, everything else just doesn't matter. Where most of the money is, is knowing down to the dollar and the cents where those rents are going to be after you are done fixing the community and fixing the unit. So that's the first thing I do is like if it's well located, it's the correct year, it's the correct HVAC, it's the correct roof, it's the correct XYZ, which I can tell just by looking at this thing, it's in the correct sub-market, where I know I would want to be, the next step in the process is just to put it through the underwriting that begins with placing rent, understanding what the rents are going to be.   James: So how do you place rents? I mean, how do you do the rent comps?   Ben: So, for me, if a broker is sending me something like this, what is accompanying it is some kind of Yardi report or metrics or something; some kind of report on the sub-market, which is going to give me the comps. Now those reports aren't correct, they're probably within 20% margin correct. We are looking in the market that's trending seven, 8% per year, obviously, those metrics will be off. First of all, I know what the rents are in Phoenix, MSA for the class of asset I want to buy in, in the kind of location I want to buy in. To validate myself, I then look at that report. Now, the underwriting, for the most part, is an automated process because we kind of know what the OPEX is. There's really very little magic to how much it costs to run these buildings.   There are a lot of reports that study and track by the state, by the locality, by the city, what the operating costs are running and so we underwrite to the averages and we have our own trailing numbers, which we use in the underwriting. So we do massage those for every deal, depending on the size and the complexity of the mechanical and things like that. The R&M is going to vary and certain services are going to be required here they're not required there, contract services, things like that. But by and large, I know that on the operating side, I'm going to be somewhere between $4,200 per door and $4,600 per door. $4,600 per door is on a smaller asset, maybe 100, maybe 95; $4,200 per door is 120, 140 is going to tick up because now I need more payroll. And so you know what those dynamics look like. We can kind of, we're both, Sam and I, are starting with numbers filled in because we know where those ranges are and this is just for the first path, right? First time through. Now, if the first time through, I mean, like it takes me about...   James: Let me quickly interrupt you. So how many percents of operational income is that? [32:06 crosstalk] do you look at percentages as well?   Ben: Yeah, that's the beauty of Phoenix. You're talking about being under 40% on a stabilized basis.   James: Under 40? That's really good.   Ben: Between 35 and 40%. Well, this is the thing about Phoenix. I have to tell you; like I studied the operating costs all over the nation, I will tell you that in Texas it's over $6,000 per door because the property taxes are so high. In Cincinnati, Ohio, it's over $6,000 per door. Over there, it's for a different reason; it's all hilly, the buildings are all older, there are boilers involved, there are flat roofs involved, pipes freeze all the time and building sit at the bottom of where water flows and you just got RNM and contract nightmare.   In Phoenix, because property taxes are so low because the insurance is so low and because frankly a lot of things are easier in Phoenix because of the weather, it never snows, such things, the operating costs, If you look at the national reports that indicate per city, you will see that Phoenix is in the mid $4,000 per door. Now, as a relationship to the rent though, that's very low because even though Phoenix is lower than the national average, still when you're running at $4,500 plus or minus like we just purchased last week. So my underwriting for that asset is right around 45 $4,600 per door on the OPEX. But dude, we're running, let me calculate, we're running, which is 98 units at about $34,000 per month.   James: That's awesome.   Ben: $4,000 per month divided by 98 times 12. Yeah, 4163, under $4,200 per door, that's OPEX. Now obviously you're going to have cap acts that you are exchanging blinds fixed. It's not part of the scope is just part of the turn on each unit. But with my underwriting, 4,600, I really don't think we're going to need it. In fact, we can run a 117 unit on the same payroll that we run 98 unit. So theoretically that OPEX number, it should be closer to 4,000. So in terms of relationship to the top line, you've got very, very pleasant circumstance in Phoenix that you can't achieve in a lot of other places.   James: Yeah, I think your rent is high compared to the Texas market. I mean, forget about Austin, Austin is a different market, right? But if I look at my San Antonio deals, usually my expenses are 4,500 4,600 but my rents are also lower so I end up my expense ratios like almost 50%. But what you're describing to me in Phoenix, looks like mobile home parks expense ratio because I know there are mobile home parks expense ratios like around 35 to 40%. So if you can run at 40% that's a really good market because your income is high and your expenses are low.   Ben: I'm going to look at it right now.   James: Okay. That's really good numbers in terms of percentage relationship.   Ben: Yeah. So in the first year, I'm projecting 49%; second year, 39%; in the third year, 35%; and then it ticks up a little bit because I'm using a little more O&M as my remodel gets seasoned and it gets older, a little more money for turns, a little more money for O&M and those kinds of things. So, but yeah, we're staying underneath 40%.   James: That's very interesting. So is that what you're consistently seeing even on the broker O&Ms? Ben: The broker O&Ms are going to be even lower. The broker O&Ms on deals like this, come with like $3,900 of operating costs; 38, 39, which is unrealistic. If you go to the bank, trying to get financing on that, it's not possible. So for the bankers, you have to show underwriting in the mid four thousand, you just do. But I have to say that in Texas if you are showing 45, $4,600 per door, that's really good. [36:47inaudible] a lot higher than that.   James: Yeah. We have our own operation, we want to be integrated so we are able to run it much leaner.  And the question I have for you on the property taxes, how do you [37:05inaudible] property taxes in Phoenix? I mean do you have the same or do you increase a bait? Because I know in Texas   Ben: In Phoenix, there are regulations in place that were passed about three, four years ago. Whereby the municipality is not allowed to raise property taxes any more than 5% per year, this applies to the assessed value and the actual tax bill so it's regulation on the books. So the tax on the writing and Phoenix is the simplest thing ever because you don't have to guess, you don't have to take a basket of properties, you have to do nothing. You know you're not going to go up any more than 5% so in my underwriting I use 5% a year, which is the worst case scenario done. Now there are caveats if you are going to put another building on the property and trigger reassessment, that triggers all kinds of circus; we don't do that. I won't buy anything that requires me to move exterior walls, to do that kind of stuff.   James: So what are you saying is even though the property has changed, hand the maximum they can do is 5%, wow! It's awesome.   Ben: And this is what I'm telling you about the regulatory environment being conducive to doing business. They don't change the chase sales. And everybody says in Texas, oh, just buy the LLC, they will never know what you pay. They're not stupid, they're going to look at the loan. They're going to apply the LTV in reverse, they're gonna get what you paid and they're going to assess your taxes up to Wazoo. I mean, the glutens up there, it's laughable, it's hilarious. And Texas has always scared me because of that because I can't underwrite taxes. The same is true in the Midwest, the Indianapolis. I remember I'd paid an attorney, we were looking at a deal in Indianapolis. Well listen, it has in place property taxes of about $60,000 but if I were to follow the letter of the law, I was getting three times that much. Which obviously is going to penalize the building and obviously the broker wasn't showing that much increase.   So I paid an attorney to speak to an attorney. Even they can't tell you because yeah, they're not chasing sales, but they are going to take a basket of properties, like properties and like location, they're going to kind of synergize all of that data and they're going to increase everybody by the same amount. But who knows what kind of basket of properties it is, which properties make it into the basket, when were they sold? So the only thing you can do there is looking at trailing billings and back into the probable increases. But it's not scientific, over here, no more than 5%, boom. And so far that's exactly what has been 5% per year. James: That's awesome. I mean in Texas is just so crazy in terms of property taxes. You do not know what to underwrite. So I always underwrite to a hundred percent increase, just to be safe in terms of underwriting but it's also a problem because you can buy a deal, which is like 24 years, not changed hand and now you're at a hundred percent, which can be huge. And it's mismanaged expectations between buyer and seller because the seller is going to say, hey, this is what I'm running and buyer's going to say I've done completely different and it's just hard to do business, but that's very interesting on how they do it in Phoenix. So how do you underwrite like miscellaneous income in terms of after you take over?   Ben:  Well, the next step in the process. So once we put it through the underwriting and it looks good, Sam and I drive out to the property. We'll look at the property, we like it, we go home, we really dial in our underwriting; what do we think the rents are going to be? What do we think the expenses are going to be? If it still looks like it's a deal, the next thing that happens is we send it over to our property management company with 20,000 units under management and obviously all kinds of access to all kinds of trailing data that we don't have. So the ultimate decision on where the rents are going to be, where the OPEX is going to be, all old form of it that ultimately is all approved or okayed by them or adjusted whichever way they see fit.   The rubs, the utility income is a very simple proposition. I mean, I underwrite 90% recovery and sometimes we can do better, but I underwrite 90% recovery. Whether you do it, whatever methodology you use, a third-party or Rubs or whatever, RPM likes to use third party, but because of legal absolve, so to speak, they like to offset the risk in that way. And as of late, past few years, regulatorily, it has become more and more difficult but I shoot for 90% recovery of the properties, utility bills, and other income is just purely specific to the property. What I'll tell you on the other income is that when we're taking, I have to back into that conversation a little bit.   What different about Phoenix than it is about most other places including Texas, value-add means something very different here. Usually, when we do value-add, we're looking for a mismanaged department [quote-unquote]. Well, mismanaged usually manifest itself in vacancy. So a big part of our value-add is to put proper management infrastructure in place and to capitalize on that vacancy and to bring it from 12% 14% to 6% which is, according to the market, that's where you supposed to be, right? So you do what you gotta do to fill those units. The issue with Phoenix is that they can see, pretty well doesn't exist. It's such a high growth market and there's such a lack of demand of 800 to $1,000 units; there's just such a lag because you can't afford to build it. So there's such a lack of that demand that that asset class is basically full. Even like the most poorly run properties are operating at full occupancy.   James: So you're saying lack of supply, not lack of demand.   Ben: Yes, lack of supply, I'm sorry. There's a lack of demand and there's a lack of population growth, but there's a lack of supply. Specifically in that price 800 to 1200, because the basis of building it, will fall at $200-225 a square foot, you got to get higher rents than that. And so, for the huge section of the population that needs those 800 to 1200 rents, there is a lack of supply on that. So what is value-add? Well, value-add is $300 per door in this case. Well, let me walk you backward; we just closed on 117 units. The physical vacancy on an annualized basis in that sub-market is 2.6%. Now, can I underwrite that? No, I have to underwrite 6% plus economic vacancy.   But just speaking about the physical vacancy, I have to underwrite 6%. I am penalizing my underwrite because the seller is operating at 2.4. When we took over, there was zero vacancy. There's one down unit and zero vacancy.   James: What about the economy occupancy, how much do you underwrite that?   Ben:  I underwrite economic occupancy, 9%. Somewhere between nine and 10 but on this deal, I did 9% and so five to six of it is physical vacancy and three to four of it is, the rest of the economic vacancy. But what I'm saying is that if the building is operating at zero vacancy and the sub-market is operating a 2.6% vacancy and I am underwriting 6% vacancy, I am penalizing my underwriting 3.4% so I need the first amount of value-add just to compensate that so I can break even. And then I need a whole bunch more value-add so I can actually create the delta so we can create enough profit margin for the IRR to work. So what this ends up looking like as value-add in Phoenix is $300 per door.   James: How did you come up with $300 a door?   Ben: It's just what it takes, in order for me to back into the IRR to the partners that is going to be attractive for people to invest. What it seems to me, I need, and it seems to be across the board for every deal that we do, what it's requiring is $300 per door value-add. So we're buying these deals that have, talk about a unicorn, $300 per door on value-add; only because we don't have a vacancy.   In most places, like if you have physical vacancy of 10% that you can fill, then maybe you just throw some lipstick on the pig and make another $75 a door, paint the cabinets, do some resurface countertops, do something like that, get another $75 of value-add and you are good; your IRR works because there was vacancy in place that you are able to fill. We don't have any vacancy so we actually have to do the heavy lifting to recapture the loss to lease and to get the renovation bump and cumulatively what it's taking us is $300 per door. Anything less than that and we can't get the margins that we need.   James: So my understanding when you talk about $300 a door, I mean when I underwrite my deals, the $300 a door is basically just the rent but you are saying the $300...?   Ben: No, it's cumulative between LTL so about 175 of it. The reason the occupancies are zero is that obviously, the rents are too low.   James: Okay, got it.   Ben: You should never have zero occupancy. If you are staying with the market and you're pushing your rent, you should never have zero occupancy. So the fact that the occupancy is zero is because the rents are too low so on day one, we're walking in and we're raising rents at 150 to $175 on the renewals and the rest of it is a bump due to the renovation so cumulatively.   James: Okay, got it.   Ben: So you have their stated rent, then you have their actual rent roll, which there's a bunch of loss to lease between the rent roll that they're actually getting and their stated rent. Now we're coming in, we're saying no, no, our classic rent is going to be this right here. So now we're going from their LTL all the way to our classic brand. And then on top of it, we're saying, but after we remodel, there is another piece of it that gets tacked onto the end. Cumulatively, that entire process in Phoenix, MSA in Class C value-add property, in my experience, $300 per door plus or minus is what's required.   James: That's awesome. And what is the total IRR that you look at for?   Ben: I look to deliver to partners, something in the mid 14 to 15 if I hit 14% IRR on a 10 year hold and I always underwrite 10-year hold, I don't want to sit there for 10 years but especially because we're late in the cycle, I underwrite a 10 year hold. So on a five-year hold, it ends up somewhere around 17, 17 plus. And of course, if we can exit sooner, then those numbers get [49:52crosstalk]   James: So let's talk about once you close on the property, right? So yeah, you underwrite everything on the paper and it all looks good so now you close on the property, right? So now you have a task of pushing up that rent. So how do you go about pushing up that rent?   Ben: So I don't do it, my PM does it.   James: But you're going to hold the strategy to it, right? I mean, are you going to tell them how to write it?   Ben: Correct. So we had a meeting on the day after we closed at the property. We had a meeting, the meeting was the property manager that's on site, the regional and Sam and myself. And what we discussed is that because, in the next three months, there are only about three or four leases coming up for renewal each month on 117 unit property. Right now we don't have a classic rent. As leases come up, you can either stay in the unit as is and pay us our renovated pricing, but you're welcome to leave. And then we'll renovate the unit and somebody else will move in and pay the renovated pricing because the business plan calls for rent, so much renovated pricing to be entering to payroll each and every month. So because we don't have enough vacancy coming up, we're basically not renewing leases and we're not putting any in place. I mean, it's unreasonable to ask people to pay the rent as if the apartment has stainless steel and granite but I don't care if they leave, they're entitled to leave and they should leave. The fact of it is, is that they're probably not gonna find anything better to go anyhow. At the end of the day, as long as I'm getting the rent, I don't care if I remodeled it or not because as long as I'm getting my rent projections, I'm in good shape. But I am prepared for a certain number of people to be, I don't want to say forced out, but they're welcome to stay as long as they pay our rent.   James: Yeah. So you're renting is like 300 so there are two components to it. One is just a loss to lease even without renovation. And on top of it, there's a renovated you need so you can do two ways, right? One is you can just not renovate and just go halfway up there. But I think what you're saying is you write a business plan calling it.   Ben: We don't want to do that for one very specific reason. This has been the model over the past five years. The model is $4,500 of renovation buys you painted cabinets, refaced cabinets, resurface countertops, maybe upgraded appliances, not stainless steel, maybe black, some fixtures, some flooring, and some paint. That's what $4,500 buys you. We're spending $7,500 per door and that gets us, granite, it gets us 100 hung sinks, It gets us stainless steel appliances, it gets us nicer flooring, paint all the rest of that. So the reason we're doing that is not so much that we couldn't make our numbers work, it's driven by the cycle. We are late in the cycle and when the cycle changes, I want to have the best product in the sub-market at that price point.   When everybody starts taking on 'loss to lease' when everybody starts taking on concessions when everybody starts the race to the bottom, my thing is I'm paying for my staying power at that point, but I'm paying for it now, I'm doing the Rehab now. So we're accomplishing two things with that; number one obviously we're repositioning the property, we're repositioning the tenant base, we're creating a more manageable situation. And number two, the product that we ended up with three years down the road has a lot more staying power then another kind of product that wasn't as renovated.   James: Especially if you're going to fork out that much of money right now and make the deal work, you can always invest in that product right now as well.   Ben:  So these are syndicated deals so we collect the money up front. There's nothing worse than coming to your partners and saying, hey, we need $1,000 more. So we collect all the money up front and we deploy it right away and we re-positioned the property right away and 18 months down the road, we arrive at a situation where we start having an exit. Now our buyer may look very different 18 months down the road from the buyer three years from the buyer five years from the buyer seven years down the road. But we have a compelling story to tell at that point in time. We start working on that story right away, on day one. But yes, our renovations are good renovations; we replaced the cabinets, they're getting new kitchens, they're getting new bathrooms. These are seriously upgraded units when we're done with them. The pricing is phenomenal; we're getting stuff done for 7,500, $8,000 on the interior that other people are complaining costing them $13,000 to do and they're not wrong. It's one of the benefits of having a PM with 20,000 units on her mat and there's a pricing power that comes with that both in terms of subcontracting and in terms of materials, how they source their materials. We could work our IRR having deployed half the funds, just get lower rents but for less money, we could work it.  Then there's just the other piece of it, which is that three years from now when the market does cycle, potentially, what do I want to own at that point?   James:  You want to one of the best product   Ben: I want to own the best quality that people can buy for that amount of money.   James: Got It. Got It. So what do you do, I mean, we have a few more minutes to go, very quickly; what do you do in terms of asset management? Are there any systems that you put in to manage the assets?   Ben: Yes, we use IMS.   James: The IMS is on the investor side, I'm talking more about the property side. I'm looking at property performance.   Ben: They use Yardi. The PM uses Yardi and then we get reporting weekly from on site in terms of, it'll have things like to date collections, it'll have vacancies, it'll have remodeling information, like how many units were remodeled, how many units of pre-leased, how many units are leased, all that stuff. Vacancy; it'll have delinquency, it'll have a promise to pay all of that stuff. So it's a one-page report that kind of gives us a bird's eye view in the whole thing. And then once a month, at the end of the month, we get a packet this thick. I mean, I've never tried to print it off, but I'm sure it'd be this thick, from the PM and that includes everything; everything, trailing, everything.   James: Yeah. So one question that I ask all of my podcast guests is, what is the most valuable value-add that you see in your experience?   Ben: I think the finishing textures inside of the units. I think that people are willing to forgive you. And you know, we do things like upgrade laundry, little rooms we build out. We don't build a separate building, but like if our laundry room is this big and it only needs to be this big, we're going to put a wall here and make a gym over here and add and the laundry room over here, things like that we do. But people are willing to forgive you so much if you create an interior that looks good and functions well. I mean, I don't care what you do on the exterior, if the inside of the unit is not great, it's just going to be difficult to drive rents. Now, once the inside of the unit is great, there's a bunch of other things you need; you can't have an ugly looking laundry room, you can't have no amenities, you can't have a shitty looking office, it's a complete packaging thing.   But I don't know, I mean, I guess my perspective is different on it. I don't nickel and dime my renovations because I'll never get the rents because of what we talked about. I don't want a hodgepodge unit, like painted cabinets that are 30 years old and resurface countertops. I just don't want to be left standing holding that bag if I have to be in this property for another five or seven years, for example, I don't want to be holding that bag for that long. So I've never really gone through and said, okay, how much is the countertop worth? How much are new cabinets worth? Because we're doing all of it. I have my scope, I know what's included. And at this point is just the easiest thing because we dialed it in, we know where everything is coming from. The PM just orders everything, we know how much it costs. If this kitchen is a little bit bigger, it's got one more extra cabinet, well, pricing goes up by $135. It's not difficult at this point to know what the remodel is going to cost.   James: Yeah. So you primarily focus on all of it inside the interiors?   Ben: Yeah.   James: So a lot of people are trying to start in multifamily nowadays. I mean, multifamily is a buzzword right now, right? I mean, the economy is doing very well, everything is so good. What would you advise to a Newbie who's trying to get started in multifamily? That's a long sigh.   Ben: I don't know because the economy's doing really well, that means the competition is very stiff. The thing is, you really got to know what you're doing it, this isn't a good time for newbies because the economy is doing very well and it'll probably continue doing well at some point and they'll go down and it won't do so well. And the decisions you make today could hurt you tomorrow and if you are just starting out and you are a Newbie and you're looking at, I can't imagine how you do large multifamily and you haven't bought some four-plexes before and some six-plexes, having to internalized all that stuff, you're better off just investing money in somebody else's deal, honestly, I feel at this point, because the stakes are too high. I am buying at four and a half gap, you can't make money at four and a half cap, you can only lose money at four and a half cap, which is why I buy a needle in a haystack; a very specific asset. If you are a Newbie, what the hell do you know to be able to do anything of what I do?   James: Correct. Right. That's so many details in renovation, finding deals, underwriting deals so many skills involved, right? It's not like anybody can jump in and do it right now.   Ben: Which is why we have this conversation, which it should be attractive to more seasoned people, to people like us, people that already have that ball rolling and they're maybe trying to break out to the next level. So if you're talking to me about newbies, this isn't a conversation they should even listen to because half of it they will not understand.   James: They wouldn't understand. You have to do it to really appreciate it. At least you should have flipped one property. [1:02:17 crosstalk]   Ben: Listen, underwriting is expressing with numbers, a behavior of people and the interaction of people and property, that's all it is. If you've never dealt with a tenant once in your life, how do you know what those dynamics even look like?   James:  Correct. I've seen a lot of newbies right now immediately, they're buying 100 units, 200 units. I mean, yeah, the market is so good right now, you're relying on property management, there's a lot of wind on your back. Right? The appreciation itself carries you up, but that's not going to be happening all the time. Everybody is a champion of bull market. So yeah, we started in the single-family, we did so many single families. We learned through the hard way when contractor management, it's a skill by itself, right? The whole timeline management. So that's really good advice, Ben. And is there any other things that you want to share to our audience that you have never shared in any other podcasts?   Ben: Yes, I think I shared everything about me in every other podcast, I want my own podcast to share the rest of it. And I'm not sure what the hell I'm going to talk about on my podcast because I already said everything on everybody else's podcast.   James:  Yeah. We already listened to Ben in something else.   Ben: But it's going to be very, very high level and like, I'm not going to make those excuses. I'm like if you're a Newbie, you probably shouldn't listen to this because we're going to be talking about stuff that you have no idea about. A friend of mine who's no longer with me has always said to me, 'stumbling blocks and stepping stones look a lot alike from a distance'. So if you are a Newbie, what I am telling you is be really sure that you know the difference between a stumbling block and a stepping stone before you step. So many of you guys are stepping first and then figuring out if it was a stumbling block or a stepping stone and that could be a very painful process. So I don't know, education.   James: Education Yeah. Go through the hard work of going with smaller deals first, that's what I would say. Just learn the ropes, learned the whole thing, make sure that you can do it. Syndication, turning around properties is not for everybody, that's how I would say. I mean, there are a lot of people who can do it but start small and grow and learn the skills.   Ben: Yeah. I very much disagree with the gurus who say, hey, it's just as easy to buy a 100 as it is to buy 10. This is true; it is just as easy to buy 100 when you know what you are doing. But the way you get to know what you're doing is by having bought the fourplex and the six-plex and the 10 unit. I disagree; I think it's criminal advice to send people directly into large multifamily. Have this be your goal, be excited about it, be whatever. But you need to internalize the dynamics of the game. People act in ways that are going to shock you and the numbers reflect that, don't be stupid. Don't be going and saying things like, ah, okay, here's the income. Let's just use 10% from property management and 10% for vacancy. Those things,  get a little intelligent about what you're doing.   For instance, the conversation I have with people all the time, listen, in a $500 rental, if you have to replace a furnace, it costs you $2,500; in a $1,200 rental, if you have to replace the furnace, it also costs you $1,200 or a $2,400. As a percentage of the top line, you see how that's a totally different figure. That's because all of the expenses in real estate are dollars, they're not percentages. We back into percentages. So James and I know what our percentages are because we've studied the dollars and we backed into the percentages. So if we ever use a percentage, it represents a dollar. What you guys, newbies, do a lot is you take this rent and then you divvy it up percentage wise to this, this, this, this, this. That's just not how real estate works and that's how you get hurt.   James: Correct.   Ben: Simple things like that that amaze me, that people don't think about and don't know and they jump into this stuff because Marcus and Millichap says on the proforma, this is how much percentage you need to allocate to XYZ, that's just nuts.   James: Absolutely. Absolutely. So Ben, thanks for being here. Do you want to tell our audience how to reach you?   Ben: Yeah. You're not getting my personal phone number. You're not getting that, James can have it, but you can't. But you can email me at Ben@justaskBenwhy.com or you can just go to, justaskBenwhy.com and we'll look over my website. You can email me through the website as well if you'd like. But yeah, I have a couple of different email accounts for like serious people and then people like you, I'm not giving up those.   James: All right, thanks Ben for being..   Ben: To all the people that I offend, you know, I get on a podcast with one goal in mind; offend as many people as you can, Ben because like if this is your brand is what you do, so go for it. I think I offended a few people, didn't I?   James:  No, I think I like the real numbers, the real details because sometimes some gurus out there makes real estate and multifamily so easy. I mean people don't realize it, people are selling education as far right. So it's not that easy, there is a lot of science behind multifamily, there's a lot of hard work behind it. It takes a lot of experience looking at hundreds of underwriting numbers and trying to figure out, and of course, there's also another aspect of, now I already buy it, now I'm going through the whole real asset management stuff and they realize, oh, whatever and the road was completely different from what I'm doing asset management, right? So realizing that it takes a lot of experience as well. So it's a learnable trick, but there's also a lot of hard work involved in growing and doing the real stuff, that's what I see. So that's really good advice, Ben. So thanks for being on the show for my audience. Thanks for being here. As I said, you have a lot of things to do outside of listening to this podcast and I really appreciate you guys being here. We hope we really delivered value to you guys. That's the reason I'm doing this podcast, to give true value to listeners and learn as much as possible before dabbling into real estate and multifamily commercial real estate. Thanks. And I'll talk to you all soon.   Ben: Thank you.  

In this episode of the Houston Home Talk, Mike Wall of Love Ohio Living and James talk about the detailed roadmap for changing business over to EXP, consistency, and branding.Quotes : " If we do get somebody to say yes, then we got a shot at a six-figure income."" You'll get what you want if you can help other people get what they want. "Mentions:Website: http://loveohioliving.comShownotes: 1:04: Response from other people to the interviews2:07 Mike started real state business04:45 Mike talking about consistency08:45 - Mike talks about branding 19:24 - Team Structure 20: 48 - Mike's favorite books and podcasts.Full Transcript:[00:03] INTRO: Welcome to Houston home talk featuring all things real estate in the Houston area. We'll interview real estate professionals, local business owners, and special guests from right here in the Houston community. This is where you get the inside scoop about what's new in real estate, new community openings and business openings and much more. The Houston Home Talk Show starts right now.[00:32] JAMES: All right guys welcome. What's up? This is James J. Welcome to Houston Home Talk. I am excited today to have my man Mike Wall from Dayton, Ohio. What's up Mike? How are you today?[00:43] MIKE: Yes sir. Baby, I'm so happy to be here, man. I'm so happy to help. We'll be able to drop some value on your audience today, brother.[00:50] JAMES: Yeah. Listen, I have been watching you now for several months as you have been doing a lot of interviews with a lot of the new people that have been moving over to EXP Realty. I want to say thank you because a lot of the content that you've been providing, I know I've used, I forwarded it to people and I know that the value that you're providing is helpful to a lot of people. You and I met in New Orleans last month. I've been watching you for several months. As soon as we met, there was several people that came up to you and said, hey, thanks Mike. I know you're reaching people. [01:21] MIKE: Yeah.[01:22] JAMES: You're helping people because a lot of people can't do what you're doing in the way that you do it so thank you for that. I wanted to ask you so I want to just start, so you've been doing a lot of these interviews, a lot of Facebook Live interviews. I want to get people introduced you. I want to ask you real quick, what's been the response from other people to the interviews that you've been doing with the new people that have joining EXP?[01:42] MIKE: Yeah. No, it's a great question man. It's really been overwhelming more than I even thought and really the whole reason if I back up and just telling you the reason why I started doing the podcast… [01:52] JAMES: Right.[01:53] MIKE:…is because I knew that we were building something special. I also knew that changes is big. Change is big for everybody involved and especially the for those people who are team leaders in running a business. I wanted to give those people a platform to be able to share their unique story with the world and in hopes that somebody out there might identify with them and be able to make an intelligent decision about where their business went and then also providing a detailed roadmap for change if they decided to move their business over to EXP. Then also kind of lastly is just to provide insight on people curious about learning more about EXP.[02:34] JAMES: Right? Yeah. Let's get to know a little bit about you because I know you have been in the business. You've been licensed for about 16 years or so. You started full time…was it 2014 when you were officially started full time? [02:45] MIKE: I did it. I got a unique story. I've had my license since 2002. I actually got into the business just as a buyer specialist for one of the top agents here in our marketplace. A guy named Phil Herman who worked for Remax is a big deal man. The guy was selling like 300 properties back like when nobody knew about teams. When I got into the business I just thought, man, I don't want to try to learn all this on my own. What I'll do is I'll take a little bit less of a commission split to go under somebody who actually has all the knowledge for what I want to do, right? I worked with Phil 2002 to 2009 and we all know what happened in 2008-2009. The market just completely crashed.I actually got out of real estate. I kept my license but I went to work back in corporate America and I did that for five years. I was working for a company that was based out of Blue Ash, which is a suburb of Cincinnati and I was selling copiers, man. It is a grind doing that. I did that for five years. I knew I wouldn't do that long term and I knew I would get into real estate. [03:43] JAMES: Right. [03:44] MIKE: In 2013 in about October, I started calling the expires in 2013. In 2014 May I had 44 listings and I went to my wife and I said, honey, it's costing me more to be at my corporate job than it is to be here in real estate. She said, you know what? She said, do your thing man. That first year went out and sold 57 houses. Second year in the business, sold 104 houses, third year sold 187 houses and then fourth year I sold 309 houses. I just haven't looked back, man. There's so much obviously that goes in between there because now you know, I'm operating as a team. I've got some great team members. I got a great business partner now. We've opened up a whole world with investing and so forth.[04:30] JAMES: Now let me touch on this because it seems pretty simple. One of the things that I love about you is the consistency. I know you've been doing a lot of live coaching calls. Obviously you've been doing this for several years, calling the expires. [04:41] MIKE: Yup.[04:43] JAMES: One of the things that I tell a lot of new agents is what you think, because everybody just assumes everybody's calling the expires. I've heard you mentioned this in the video, a lot of people will stop calling after the fourth time or even a third time in a lot of cases. Obviously you were consistent. What made you focus on the expires? Because as a new agent, that's one of the things that I always tell people to do. Focus on expires. You can get that information and just keep consistent, stay consistent with it. What made you start? What was the thing that kind of got you to focus on the expires when you first started?[05:17] MIKE: Yeah. No man. That's a legitimate question because if you think about it, I mean everybody's good at something, right? Everybody can always make up the excuse that I'm not good at something and typically it's because they either don't have the experience or they're just not willing to try. For me, when I moved here, I went to high school and was raised mostly in to Dallas, Fort Worth area. I moved to Ohio and went to college at Ohio State. Go Bucks. I met my wife there and my wife was from this small town, which is a Northern Cincinnati, Southern Dayton suburb called Springboro. I didn't have a personal network. I didn't have a lot of people that I could tap into. I just thought, well, what is the next best thing? I knew I could grind it out on the phones because I had done in B to B sales selling copiers, right?[06:03] JAMES: Right. [06:05] MIKE: There's no science behind it, man. I just did it. You talked about consistency and that's, that's really what it was. It's just doing it. It's repetitions in the gym, right? It's like every day you show up. You put in your reps. You work hard, and then the magic starts to happen, man.[06:20] JAMES: Right. Yeah. That consistency thing is very difficult, especially for us because there's no one to tell us to do anything.[06:27] MIKE: Right.[06:29] JAMES: Everyone wants to get in the business, but then lacking the discipline to do what you did for three years and still continue to do to this day with the Expires. It's something tells you is you have a schedule and you got to work. It's hard to do. It is hard because stuff comes up. It's hard to stay consistent. If you really want to make it and you're a prime example, everybody that's calling these Expires, they're not doing it consistently. They just don't. I know it. In Houston, it's the same thing. We've got 30,000 agents here. We've got a lot of expires but of that 30,000 there's only a handful of people that are actually consistent with it. As a matter of fact you knew that and you stuck with it and clearly it works.[07:09] MIKE: I want your audience to understand something too James is that the great thing about calling the Expires is not everyone's is going to say yes, right? We are fortunate enough to work in an industry where the margins, if you do get a yes, are very large, and I always tell my team this, right? We live in a market in southwest Ohio here where the average price point is not really high, right? Our team average sale price is $178,000. Our market. Average sale price is $130,000 but you can still make a six figure income here if you just get one yes, every week because our agents average commission check is 25.50 and if you take 25.50 and divide that out over 50 weeks, you've got a nice income, right?[07:48] JAMES: Absolutely, yeah.[07:50] MIKE: Really we just focus…we have our team focus on that one yes per week, right? We understand when we pick up the phone that the odds are against us, right? We understand that most people are not going to answer the phone and if they answer, most people are not going to set an appointment. We understand also that if we do get somebody to answer it, if we do get somebody to say yes, then we got a shot at a six figure income.[08:10] JAMES: Absolutely. Yeah, and you know there's a couple of books I've got but the go for no is one. Darren Hardy, I love Darren Hardy. December is going to be here tomorrow and I bring this up because his book talks about the format. There's this habit, habit, habit, habit and what he used to do when he was in real estate back in the day, he would just look for no's. The more no's you get, you're just closer to that yes. At some point somebody is going to say yes and I'm a huge Darren…the compound effect. That's what that's saying in the book, compound effect. I love that book. Usually we'll bring it up every single year around this time of year and I go through it and I'll operates during the year because it's a great book about the discipline of habits. In this business. it is key to everything is self-discipline to be able to, to continue to do that. Props to you on that. Now I wanted to ask you, so I heard in the interview that you had mentioned that you had back when you started full time back '04, 2014-2015. I guess a couple of years into it. You switch from the wall group over to love Ohio living, LOL team.[09:05] MIKE: I did. I did.[09:07] JAMES: Explain why did you did that? I think I know the answer. I wanted my audience to understand why did you do that? Why did you think that was important to get your name off the brand and brand it to level high live in which you did.[09:18] MIKE: Yeah. No, that's a great question. There's arguments for both sides.For me personally, I thought it was more sustainable to build a business that didn't have my name on it. I didn't think people would sustainably work to build my business. I thought that together, if we formed something that we could all believe in and all row the same direction, that didn't have my name on it. In another words, it's like a football team, right? If you think of the Dallas cowboys, right? Who did beat the Saints last night which…[09:50] JAMES: Yes, they did. Yeah.[09:51] MIKE: if you think of the Dallas Cowboys, they're not called the Jerry Jones, right? They're called the Dallas Cowboys. Jerry Jones owns the cowboys, but everybody has their respective position for the Dallas cowboys. When they come together, they make a team, right? I wanted to do is I wanted to take the level how living team and I wanted to galvanize everybody around that.What that stood for was elite level agents being able to plug their businesses in to our tool systems and resources to go out and sell as many houses as they want. Not, they plugged into Mike Wall and just took every, all my leftovers, right? Because there is a team model that works that way and I just don't believe it's sustainable. The statistics show, I mean, the shelf life on those type of a team, the shelf life of the agent is much lower, right? Because what happens is they come in, in most cases and they build them up and then those agents, they want to go do the same thing whereas now we have an agent on our team. It's like Natalie Rose, right? Is an agent on our team? It's Natalie Rose with the level higher living team at a power broker by EXP Realty, right? Her name goes on the sign. We just have our LOL logo. Frankly, it's not that I would ever sell my business, but if you think of it like this, James who's going to buy Mike Wall real estate without Mike Wall.[11:09] JAMES: Yeah. [11:10] MIKE: You know what I mean? [11:11] JAMES: Now you're, you're right on. That's a key when we talk about marketing branding because I f struggled with that as well earlier and having my name. I agree with you completely. I think the buy in from your team is much more when you have LOL Level Higher Living. I love that you did that. That's a key. That's a nugget for people to really look at that because like you say there's arguments both ways. I'm actually on board with you as far as the branding and not having your name attached to it for the long term, long term that's a great idea. Good information there. Let me ask you, so from all the interviews that you've been doing with a lot of the EXP Agents that have been mourning, it's been absolutely crazy the growth that we've had. You joined back, was it February of this year is when you guys moved over? [11:55] MIKE: Yes sir, it'd be a year. [11:58] JAMES: Montel Williams, you moved over. What's been the best or the most surprising thing, specifically from the people that you have interviewed? Because I don't know if you've got to off the top of your head how many people you've interviewed since you started the show.[12:10] MIKE: Probably around 20, 25 at this point.[12:13] JAMES: Okay. Okay. What's been maybe one of the biggest surprises or maybe common similarities? Because everybody's story's a little different. I probably have watched virtually every video interview that you've done. Everybody's story just a little bit different. What have you found that maybe something that's maybe been similar from a lot of the people that you've spoken to? [12:30] MIKE: Yeah. I have them. Something instantly pops to mind and because it really not only has it surprised me that this is what I've learned from them. It is something that we never expected when we came over. I'm learning now when I talked to people in those interviews is that it's the same thing for them, right? What I'm learning is that the community. It's the community that we've created. It's the people that now we're able to tap into, right? Because like Jay Kinder and Mike Reese, the NEA group, right? They used to run this mastermind that was like a $25,000 buy in, right? Now they're doing that mastermind for free. [13:09] JAMES: Yeah. [13:10] MIKE: Right? We're talking about Kinder was the number one, number two guy for COA banker in the world at one time, right? He's one of the smartest guys in real estate. When you're able to plug in to those guys like I could shoot him a text right now and get a response from him, right? The same thing with Kyle Whistle, the same thing with Dan Beer. I mean we're talking about some of the biggest real estate teams and smartest real estate minds in the business.For me that was the biggest surprise man, is the fact that now we've created this fantastic community of learning and sharing and just growth and excitement, man. That's an easy answer for me. [13:50] JAMES: Yeah, you and I, we've got a lot of similar circles as far as NEA. I've been with NEA probably since 2011. Actually, back then it was just Kinder-Reese. I've been following Jay for years. He's one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Yes, I also coached with them him well. You're right. When now you've gotten to exponential growth summit back in the day. [14:06] MIKE: I never did go to that believe it or not. Yeah, I never went.[14:12] JAMES: Okay.[14:13] MIKE: I coached with NEA. I didn't exponential growth. [14:17] JAMES: Right. The funny thing now is that with EXP, with all these big name ages moving over, and you're right, the community and the collaboration. I know we keep using these words over. It's true. When you're in it and you and I were here where we both are at EXPN. We've been able to see it. The fact that you're right that I could call Jay right now. I've paid thousands and thousands of dollars to Jay to coach me. Now that same information, I could still get it and get access to him with literally just picking up the phone right now. That's been one of the biggest, pleasant things that I've seen as well. For a lot of people that are not, or maybe looking at the opportunity right now other than the collaboration, what else is maybe been one of the things that's been a plus for you? [15:03] MIKE: What I want to add to that real quick is that I don't want people to take that for granted because a lot of people I think represent EXP the wrong way. You're trying to get people, you're calling people that you don't know and you're trying to get them to move for revenue share or stock. That's not enough to get people to move. It's like you need to figure out what if we understand at the end of the day, right? That map is more valuable than the treasure. Then you understand that that knowledge that you can get through collaboration, that's where the treasure is, right?That's the map to the treasure. To be able to collaborate with those guys in a mastermind group. These guys are doing stuff at a level that we just haven't thought of or haven't gotten to in our businesses yet. For that person out there who's doing $10 million or $20 million a year that wants to get to 20 million or 40 million or a 100 million, right. The difference between them, where they're at right now and where they want to be is that roadmap, right? When you join EXP, you're able to tap into that right away, right, through the collaboration and relationships that you'll build here. I wanted to make sure that your audience was crystal clear on that because although revenue share is fantastic and the opportunity to be an owner through stock is fantastic. It's not the only reason you should join EXP, right?[16:28] JAMES: Yeah. No question about it. Yeah. I think the excitement around it is just because it hasn't been done this way before. [16:33] MIKE: Yeah. [16:37] JAMES: You start looking at the opportunity down the road. I could not agree with you more, Mike. That component of EXP has gotten a lot of publicity. I think as far as representing EXP, a lot of people would probably get a little turned off because everybody's talking about the revenue shift. You are right. That's not really for me the number one reason. It is the fact that you get to collaborate. You and I would not be talking right now. We aren't talking right now if it wasn’t for EXP. I wouldn't be able to call collar or anybody for that matter. It's genuine. When we went to the EXP con last month it's genuine. People are just really willing to help you with whatever because it does benefit us all when we all succeed. Where it used to be you have freinemies and you interviewed with Tammy yesterday?[17:25] MIKE: Tammy was day before. You're talking about Mary Simons Malone. I love them so much. Yes, she was frienemies with Kyle Whistle, right? They worked at competing brokerages in San Diego. She talked about that too with the collaboration now with Dan and Kyle who were formerly her biggest competition, right?[17:44] JAMES: Yeah, Yeah. Huge, huge, huge, huge. That's awesome. Couple more questions for you Mike, before I let you get on out of here. Again, you said the response from people because I saw people coming up to you and we're at the EXP last month which is pretty cool. As we were in the middle of talking,[17:59] MIKE: Let me one more thing James before because I know you asked me and I'll try not to be too long winded here. I want to make sure that people understand the value of what the model at EXP has to offer no matter where you're at in your business because you asked also what was another thing that I had learned or what was another reason that we moved and what we learned through our move, and I'm hearing back from obviously a lot of these team leaders in our interviews is the fact that I had a decision to make personally when I moved. We were opening up our own market center. We had approval through KWRI. We were opening. In fact, that market center has now opened without me. Right? [18:34] JAMES: Okay. [18:35] MIKE: Some other person or group came in and took my place. I was supposed to be an owner at that market center and EXP was put into my lap, right? We had a decision to make right away and that decision was, do I move forward with my plans with Keller Williams to open this market center, right? Or do I move my team to EXP? I'll tell you what it came down to. It came down to what was better for my team, right? Ultimately the reason why EXP want one out is because the move to Keller Williams would have been a lateral move. Actually it would have been a worst move for them because the CAP was going up at the new office. It would have only been a win for me, right? I could have been an owner at that office and that would have been great, right? Our Ego loves that, right? I'm an owner. Ultimately if I knew I wanted it to be successful through my team. That's what I want and ultimately to be able to provide them the best platform for success, right? I knew that I had to make the decision to move to EXP because now I can offer them things that I never could before. That is through revenue share and that is through who stocks, right? Now, they can become owners. They have a vested interest after three years. They have two exceptional wealth building tools that they never had access to before.[19:46] JAMES: Absolutely, yeah. That same message as I go around talking with agents in my market, same message. My team is definitely not structured because your team structure right now is, consists of what? How is your team set up right now?[19:57] MIKE: We serve two markets. We serve Dayton-Ohio market and also the Cincinnati-Ohio market. [20:02] JAMES: Okay. [20:03] MIKE: We have 25 agents. We also have a listing manager and a contract manager and then an office manager as well. [20:10] JAMES: Right. [20:11] MIKE: I have Director of operations/ co-owner and a guy named Jump Welski.[20:16] JAMES: Yeah. You've got a pretty big a machine going up there and a lot of people being affected by your decision, all tweets and make that move over to the EXP, which is not something to be taken lightly by any means. I've spoken to a lot of other agents. I don't know. I've watched a lot of your interviews with people. It's a tough decision because it's not just you that you're affecting here. It's a ton of people that are affected by your decision, good or bad one way or the other. I don't think there's really any downside to EXP. I'm going to be a little biased, but the other revenue models or other revenue streams that we have available is great. The fact that we can collaborate with people all over the country at this point and soon it'd be international, 2019-2020 which is a pretty exciting where the company's. I compare what we're doing now with EXP and how Glenn has set this up and the fact that you are not going to have a conversation. You and I could talk to each day. Three quick questions I want to ask you. First question is what are you reading right now? I know you're always seeking knowledge. I know. Are you reading anything right now that…[21:20] MIKE: Let me make it up for you man. I'll tell you right now. I usually have a couple of different books going on. I do love to read and I do love to listen to podcasts. I'm listening to… this is not a business book but its called sleep smart. I don't do fitness coaching, but I have a fitness coach too. He sends me books. I'm also listening to the Perfect Day Formula and that's by Craig Valentine. I'm listening to it another book called The Swerve. That's a good book. It's funny man, because if you do a lot of reading or if you listen to podcasts, you always get ideas about books from other people, right? It seems like one book leads to another write. One book mentions another and then you pop that in audible and you read that. I think one really good nugget and you and your audience should write this down if you haven't heard it already is listen to that recent, the most recent Maxout podcast with Ed Mylett, where he talks to you. UOP baseball team. That is so good, man. It is so powerful. I've shared that with my entire team. I listened to it probably every other morning because it just so resonates with me, especially as you transitioned into 2019. If you need something to get you up and light a fire under your butt and it is great, great material, man. [22:26] JAMES: Yeah, I have my last. He's awesome. He is awesome. That's the beauty of a podcast is or an audio book for that matter just to be able to listen to it at any point of your day, at any time. It really doesn't matter where you're at nowadays. You can just pop that in and listen to us. I have not heard that one. I will make sure that I listened to it. I'm actually post the links so people can get just click where and go right into it. [22:46] MIKE: Awesome. [22:47] JAMES: I'm an avid, avid reader as well. There's always something that I pick up. The knowledge that it's that compound effect. One compounds on top of you, the next thing. Another last, last two questions here. What's your favorite quote? Favorite quote.[23:02] MIKE: Man, that's a good one. I think it's probably changed throughout time. I think my favorite quote is probably really cliché at this point, but it just so resonates with me is the old Zig Ziglar quote is that "you'll get what you want. If you can help enough other people get what they want." That has not always been true for me. I've grown in my business, I've learned that my success will ultimately be a product of the success that I help others have.[23:28] JAMES: Yeah, no, that's awesome. Zig Ziglar Fan, goodness gracious as well. I one that was one of my favorite of course. The other one is then you're going to be a meaningful specific or a wandering generality. It's huge and especially for realtors because most realtors are not meaningful specifics.[23:45] MIKE: Right. Right. We know that.[23:46] JAMES: Great, great quote there. The last thing I want to ask you, so what's something that you want to do in 2019 that you've never done before? Whether it be business related obviously EXP is an explosion in growth mode right now. What's something that maybe you've got want to do a 2019 that you've never done before?[24:04] MIKE: That question comes at a really opportune time for me because we're actually in the middle of opening up our own mortgage company, the P and L model. I'm actually really excited to play around with that a little bit. I think there's a huge opportunity, not only to add more money to the bottom line but to also provide a level of service that most of the real estate agents can't provide because this is going to be set ups just so especially at first just so this person is servicing our team.[24:29] JAMES: That's great. I've had a sin as a, as a loan officer. There's no better mortgage advisor like yourself because you are on that side and you speak to what your clients are really wanting and really be able to direct if it's going to be your mortgage company or whoever you're working or partnering with on the mortgage side to really provide a really, really good value for people because I know you've experienced it. I've experienced it with a mortgage companies that it amazes me that some of these mortgage companies exist or lenders should I say. I've had people just completely disappear during the process. This is amazing to me. It's amazing. That's a great opportunity and I think with your background there's no way that you would not be successful with that or anything else that you do. [25:19] MIKE: Thank you sir.[25:20] JAMES: That'd be great. Again, I am a huge fan. I admire everything you've been doing. You're one of those people when you meet him, you just like of like literally I met you. We shook hands on. My God, I just liked this guy. [25:29] MIKE: Likewise my man, likewise.[25:34] JAMES: I've got to get up to and actually one more thing we got to talk about real quick, the most important thing will Ohio State be in the playoffs or not.[25:42] MIKE: Man, at this point, does it even matter? It's whoever's going to play Bama and lose, right?[25:45] JAMES: Right. Right. That’s true. [25:50] MIKE: I love my Buck guys I'm also a realist man. [25:52] JAMES: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's got to be quiet if you you say well. Anyway, when I appreciate your time, Mike. Thank you so much man. Thank you. Thank you. Keep doing what you're doing. I will continue to promote you as much as I can. If there's anything I can help you with, let me know and appreciate your time, man. You have a great one and we'll catch up. [26:07] MIKE: Likewise and if anybody's interested in that free coaching that you mentioned they could go to liverealestatecoaching.com and sign up there. I'd be happy to take on anybody for 30 to 40 minutes and just really dive deep into any area of your business you're looking to improve. [26:24] JAMES: I will post the link on the podcast. Actually let me put it on here so people can get that link and access what you're offering there. Yeah, can't go wrong. Free strategy call with Mike, reach out to them. He's an awesome agent, great example a lot of consistency and professionalism. I really appreciate what you do on Mike, We'll catch up soon brother. You take care.[26:43] MIKE: All right man. Thanks so much, James. I appreciate it. [26:46] JAMES: Okay. All right, bye-bye.[26:47] MIKE: Good luck.If you like this episode of the Houston Home Talk podcast, please don't forget to like, share, and comment! We appreciate your support and feedback! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

In this episode of the Houston Home Talk, Cindy West from NRL Mortgage and James talks about the process of getting a mortgage loan, interest rates, NRL Mortgage loan programs you can apply to and other things such as Cindy’s career trajectory and how her knowledge in forensic accounting helped her in her role as a mortgage loan officer. QUOTES“You have to make sure that the house is not listed for sale, because that’s a red flag in mortgage, before you cash out.”“The buying power of people changes significantly as those rates go up.”MENTIONSContact Cindy:Phone: 832-370-7373Website: https://cindywest.nrlmortgage.com/SHOW NOTES[0:02:10.9] How Cindy got into mortgage lending[0:03:32.4] How forensic accounting works[0:08:02.3] NRL Mortgage loan programs[0:14:25.1] James and Cindy talk about interest rates[0:21:04.4] The difference between pre-approval and pre-qualification[0:32:24.5] Get in touch with Cindy!Full Transcript: [00:03] INTRO: Welcome to Houston home tall, featuring all things real estate in the Houston area. We'll interview real estate professionals, local business owners, and special guests from right here in the Houston community. This is where you get the inside scoop about what's new in real estate, new community openings and business openings, and much more. The Houston home talk show starts right now.[00:33] JAMES: All right, welcome guys. This is James with Houston home talk and I am joined today by my good friend, Cindy West in our El mortgage. Um, how are you doing this morning, Cindy?[00:45] CINDY: Hey James. I'm great.[00:48] JAMES: Awesome. I'm doing great. It's a little chilly for us here in Houston at a blistering 70 degrees. Now, just joking. People in the Midwest laugh at us when it gets too 40s. [01:00] CINDY: Yeah. Yeah. [01:02] JAMES: It is cold for us but I am glad to have you on. It has been an interesting ride as far as interest rates and a lot of things going on specifically this year. You have been in the business for a few years now. You've done really well and I appreciate all your insight. Just to kind of set the table for everybody, so sending and I have known each other for about three years. We've been working together. You came to visit me when I worked for a home builder and you were one of very few, really probably the only one person that really would come visit me because everybody else was scared to come see me working for a home builder because they just assumed that they could get no business from a home builders onsite salesperson which was not the case. [01:52] CINDY: No. [01:52] JAMES: I'm glad that you've been very tenacious and the way you work and I admire your work of it. I see you on Saturdays, Sundays. I see everywhere. You have gotten a lot of knowledge and your work ethic is been very, very admirable. What I want you to do is just kind of introduced yourself. You've got a very interesting background. Introduce yourself to the audience and tell us a little bit about your background and how you got into the mortgage.[02:22] CINDY: Okay. Sure. Yeah. I've been in the business three years ago and I'm like, my background started with auditing and taxes. I did that for several years and then I relocated to Los Angeles and I became a forensic accountants, which is very interesting. [02:39] JAMES: Okay. [02:42] CINDY: Pretty much what I would do is I worked with people getting in divorce, determining child support, alimony, division of assets and valuing businesses. Pretty much I would find the money and determine what the individual's cash flow was for child support and alimony. Then after that, and I relocated here with my family. [03:04] JAMES: Okay. [03:05] CINDY: That's where I met Chad Freeman and he is a manager for Nations Reliable Lending. Tell me about the job. My personality and my background was the perfect fit and my daughter is going into school so I thought, it's a great time to get back into the workforce full time. I took the test and passed it and then I'm on my way ever since.[03:32] JAMES: The forensic, you got to give me a…tell us back a little bit more. The last time I hear forensic, I usually think, CSI and one of these criminal shows when I hear forensics. Break that down a little bit more as far as what you did with that that as forensic accounting?[03:55] CINDY: Yeah, so pretty much, I mean it has to do with documentation. [03:57] JAMES: Okay. [03:58] CINDY: Thing at paperwork, a little bit differently and people represent themselves based on the tax return. I only make $25,000 a year when you're living in a half million dollar house and you drive a Mercedes and I could see all the charges on your credit card for limousines and things of that nature. I would pretty much hunt down the money. [04:21] JAMES: Got it. [04:21] CINDY: Figure out what the true cash flow is because people have businesses, they write off all their personal expenses, cellphones, cable bill, I'm 100 percent of their auto. All those things are not true. Business expenses, personnel. They drained the company, and they want the write offs. They pay as much taxes. From a divorced stamp, that's now your cash flow. We add back all this personal offenses as perquisite come up with somebody's true cash flow. Then that's how we figured out how child support and alimony.[05:00] JAMES: Okay. I see. Then the connection with that and the connection to the mortgage side of the business because a lot of what you were doing and that career really translates into you being a mortgage lender because a lot of the details that come along with, especially, specifically you brought up self-employed because those are the biggest challenges when it comes to the mortgage. [05:24] CINDY: Yes. Yeah. [05:26] JAMES: How does that background, how did that help you on the mortgage side because like I said, I know you've only been three years but you've been…you've been very, very successful and the time that had been a mortgage lender. How has that helped you in being successful in what you're doing now?[05:42] CINDY: Definitely the tax knowledge and the attention to detail and I'm looking at paperwork a little bit differently. Very detail oriented, which in mortgage you have be, when you looked at the paperwork upfront for a year under contract and kind of figure everything out ahead of time instead of having issues under contract that who I wish I would've seen this or looked at it closer than. Definitely the tax return and the tax knowledge has helped me with understanding the actual tax return for the self-employed borrowers. [06:18] JAMES: Right. [06:18] CINDY: You can have a schedule C which is on your 1040 where you can have 1065, which is a partnership returns, that's corporations or your 11 languages are C corps. Understanding how somebody gets paid out of each one of those is quite really friendly. You can get paid out of distribution. You can get paid through salaries and wages or dividends depending on what X return you're filing. That's definitely given me an edge on a fast track and dealing with more sophisticated buyers would complex tax returns. The attention to detail, I'm looking at paperwork and just knowing. I've seen all these documents who I've been working with them for years. It's definitely helped.[07:08] JAMES: No. That definitely explains a lot because I've had a brief stint as a mortgage lender as well, so I understand the level of these. I don’t think a lot of people understand it and unless you've done it. There was no way. As a realtor, most realtors, all we care about is the loan approved. [07:29] CINDY: Right. [07:30] JAMES: Always funded. Those are the words that kind of care is, are we funded. Okay. When you're behind the scenes, the level of detail. There're so many moving parts. There's so many moving parts. I appreciate you guys more because I've had a boost said joining and kind of understand now that there's so much that goes on behind the scenes. Someone like yourself with that background and being very detailed. It's so important. It really is. Now, I know you guys have a program because one of the things that I work a lot with, I work a lot with home buyers will still be sellers who have a home to sell before they purchased their next home.I do a lot of new construction and so typically, we have a contingency to where the only way they can purchase the new house is if they sell the current house and multiple cases. I know you guys have a product that's kind of design and you don't have to go into a whole lot of detail, but I know that's something that I wanted you to share a little bit about because I think it's important for people to know that, that you guys have that product. I've dealt with a lot of lenders. I don't know anyone that has a program like this. I might be wrong. I know anybody that has that program. Tell us a little bit about that. A little bit about that program.[08:53] CINDY: It's a fantastic program because people that are looking to buy and I say new construction, it doesn't have to be new construction. It can be anything, but who this product would best serve. Somebody that finds a house that they fall in love with. That they really want. It could be through a builder. They might find a lot, the perfect lot and I called a stack or on a green belt with backyard. Let's say water way or anything specific that they might lose if we wait to sell their house. [09:32] JAMES: Right. [09:32] CINDY: That's the emotional side of this product is somebody that's motivated to move forward, doesn't want to wait. I think this product also is more beneficial to people in the higher price points a significant equity. Pretty much in order for this product work, you have to have at least 30 percent equity, the partying residence, and you need 20 percent down payment to move forward on the purchase.Now, you can obtain gift funds for the 20 percent. However, you do have to have at least 5 percent of your own friends. That would mean 25 percent now. You can get the Gift Front Lens of 20. You bring 5 percent. The 30 percent equity, if you have your house paid off or have significant equity, meaning like 30 percent or more and you don't have the cash in bank, you can do a cash out refi, pull out 20 percent as long as you leave 30 percent equity in the parting residence. You can pull out money to use that on the down payment for the purchase side, [10:43] JAMES: Got it. [10:45] CINDY: Yeah, you have to make sure the house is not listed for sale because that's a red flag and mortgage, so before you get a cash out. It's a purchase just like any other purchase, but we are eliminating that just from the ratio. You actually will have two mortgage payments until the house is sold. The only stipulation is that their house has to be listed for sale prior to the purchase of the new residents. That's it. [11:10] JAMES: Okay. [11:11] CINDY: That's something where if you're building builder relationships, that's a good thing to have because the builder that's going to identify that and it's going to call you, you're marketing this product and lease the house for sale. That's the key is you're, as a realtor, you're getting the leasing and hopefully, the buy side as well, because you're going to get a walk in client that falls in love, has a house to sell and that builders not going to wait, want to wait three to six months for the house to sell or probably does not want the contingency offer because if it's in a higher price point, we might take a little bit longer. Or if it's a flooded house that you have for sale, who knows how long going to take it so. It's a great product that allows people to move forward without waiting for the house to sell and then they don't lose equity. They don't have to half the price. They just have to afford the two payments[12:07] JAMES: Right. There're a lot of people that are in that position to be able to do it especially like you said, in a higher price point. This helps them not lose out because I've seen it on several occasions where they probably could qualify for both financially, but this product, like I said, this product wasn't around. I knew I have no knowledge of that product a few years ago. It's a great option for people that are…that are looking to buy another hall or build either one. I'll make sure I post your information because there're people out there that want to reach out to you and get a little bit. I know there's probably a little bit more detail, which you probably just speak with somebody in person. Speaks somebody over the phone to get a little bit more detail about their situation and how the product help, but I know it's a great product and it can help a lot of people.[13:05] CINDY: Yeah. Builders love it. I'm not competing with Mortgage Company. They're in house lender to add on to their business, to help it grow. I'm not looking to compete with them. I usually can't let their incentives. [13:17] JAMES: Right, yeah. [13:18] CINDY: This can eliminate the contingency offer and it's very attractive to builders and playing lots of calls and emails from builders I've ever even met before clients. Again, it's a great…it's a great marketing tool to get connected, to build a relationship and help builder build business and great for realtors to use that as well.[13:45] JAMES: I know a lot of builders are work with a ton of them in a new construction kind of what I specialize in more than anything. Having worked for a few builders myself personally. I will make sure they all know about this. Like I said, anybody is working for builders that might be watching this. I'll make sure they get you a contact because the onsite…where the onsite, salespeople or about getting…they don’t get paid to do loans. They get paid to close homes. [14:14] CINDY: That's right. [14:14] JAMES: Having you as a resource and in those situations is a great, great thing to have a speaker. I'm speaking from experience. I know one of the big things and challenges that I've seen so far this year are the interest rate. Rates have slowly just crept up and I back in January and February, I was telling people that rates are going to increase and unfortunately they have. Now we're now almost to the end of the year and so one, I guess, what are we looking now. FHA, I know everything obviously based on credit scores, but what kind of averages are we saying on FHA, conventional, and then what are we looking at? Maybe first part of 2019 that you kind of thing, well what may happen, which rates come from that first quarter?[15:09] CINDY: Well, definitely rates have slowly increased. They're in the fines, so again, to then plan your LTB FICA score, debt information, that I've seen. ORS, donate them five again. Sometimes they come with the discount, to the rate of that. Rates are still great. There's still near historic. Still a great time to buy. Do not wait to buy a house. The rates are going to go down. Of course I don't have a crystal ball. That's my said, good judgment indicates that I think are going to probably stay or climb a little bit. The interest rates a tight to this, excuse me, the 10 year treasury. [15:53] JAMES: Right? [15:53] CINDY: Usually when the Fed announces the direction of interest rates, they going to use some hikes, the market has a tendency to accelerate that. If they're going to say an increase in December, market goes higher before that. It's stable. It's still…they're still near historic low and they're in the five and would not wait 1 percent increase in the interest rate. Will make it 13 percent increase in your payment. [16:22] JAMES: Absolutely. [16:23] CINDY: A thousand dollar monthly payment. Your payment will go off to a 103 or extra $130 a month. That's pretty significant. People always talk about the score and want to increase it. I tell them, I said, you time you increase your score, you're going to be offset by the higher rate.[16:43] JAMES: Right. [16:44] CINDY: It's a lot. [16:46] JAMES: Yeah. That could take somebody from qualifying to not qualify. The bump in the rate and for people and for some people that might be borderline or maybe close anyway and you wait. You're not really winning and a lot of cases. You're not winning by waiting a. I try to encourage people, if you find…if you find a home that you're interested in now, don't wait because literally, half of point or all the point can make a significant difference. It can't really be the difference when you qualified or not in some cases. [17:19] CINDY: Yeah. Yeah. Or you have to drop the purchase price or have to come up with no money down to offset that. For every $10,000 you put down in a house, your monthly payment will change by $20,000. [17:32] JAMES: Right. [17:32] CINDY: $20,000 will only make $100 a month difference in your payment. That's not a lot of movement with significant $20,000 down payment. You're better off to do it now because rates in the fives are fantastic. I know people go back to the past and threes and fours and the confused I've seen. Ladies and gentlemen, that was history. You make three for a lifetime. [18:06] JAMES: Yeah, that's just… that's with sales. [18:04] CINDY: Gosh, yes. [18:04] JAMES: You've set the sale that made you want it. [18:08] CINDY: Right. [18:08] JAMES: It's funny when people started talking about the rates now, how they're going up and I tell people, before the crash, it just rates are in the 60s. [18:18] CINDY: Yes. [18:19] JAMES: My parents, when they bought their houses, they were in double digit. It's just perspective but if you didn't own a home before '07, '08 and maybe you just, you started looking into it after 2008. Basically the last 10 years, it won't be spoiled. [18:39] CINDY: Yes, absolutely. It means accidentally. [18:43] JAMES: It wasn't on purpose. They were spoiling. There's either the Katas or they're hard. [18:47] CINDY: I know, right?[18:48] JAMES: They were doing it to encourage people to go by because everything had kind of tanked. '08, '09 that's why those race was so insanely low, it was encouraged people to go out and own. Obviously, as the economy starts to get better, it's just a matter of time before those rates start creeping back up and that's where we are right now. [19:09] CINDY: Yes. Yeah. [19:12] JAMES: I laugh when people started talking about, oh my goodness, my rate's 4.8 and it's like…[19:19] CINDY: I know. [19:20] JAMES: Five [19:21] CINDY: Right. [19:22] JAMES: Rates are still very, very low. Yeah. Historically speaking, if your history is only six years ago. [19:31] CINDY: I know, right. Yeah. [19:34] JAMES: It’s a difficult… [19:34] CINDY: First house too that we bought was back in 2006 and it was 6 percent. I remember high fiving in the kitchen and using hands like, everybody was paying 10 and 11 percent, and I get 6 percent. That was a great rate. Six percent so great rate. [19:54] JAMES: Yeah, wise. [19:54] CINDY: It is good. [19:56] JAMES: Yeah. Absolutely was, yeah. I find it funny when people started talking about it, but we can't control it. Home ownership is still a better way to go. [20:09] CINDY: Yes. [20:10] JAMES: Paying a 5 percent interest or half or whatever it is and whatever it ends up being in 2019. It's still a better option than renting and in most cases. We'll continue to encourage people to go on. The sooner the better because rates, from what I see, and you can speak on that. For what I see, it seems like it's going to…the experts are saying that 2019, of course again, there's no crystal ball. Yeah, we're going to maybe be in that consistently in the 5 percent range. Who knows for, but that's what I see and that's what I've read. [20:51] CINDY: Yeah. Definitely would agree with that. Yeah.[20:53] JAMES: Yeah. The buying power for people, it changes significantly as those raised a lot. Yeah. If you guys are looking at a owning a home call, call Cindy. [21:04] CINDY: Yes. [21:04] JAMES: One more thing that I want to ask you. I want you to distinguish between pre-approval versus pre-qualification because I get this question a lot. I know what the difference is. [21:16] CINDY: Right. [21:16] JAMES: They are a big difference. I want you to speak on that a little bit so people really understand the difference and when, as a realtor, if you're making an offer on one of my listing with the prequalification letter, I'm not feeling that comfortable about it quite honestly. [21:32] CINDY: Yeah. [21:33] JAMES: Yeah, speak on that a little bit and tell the people the differences are. [21:39] CINDY: Sure. Okay. Definitely pre-qualification and pre-approval. The underwriter, there's a couple differences. The underwriter does the pre-approval, so that's when it actually goes into underwriting. [21:53] JAMES: Yeah. [21:53] CINDY: There're levels of prequalification letters that have stronger credibility than others. That's pretty much the documentation. [22:05] JAMES: Yes. [22:05] CINDY: When that consumer fills out a credit application and we call them. We go over the 10 on 3 with them. We pull their [inaudible] with score, input their liabilities and the application, make sure their debt to income ratio is right and sure. The LTV is right. Run interest rate pricing and make sure we get automated underwriting system approval, which is the automated scientific version of what an underwriter does. When we get an approved eligible, that triggers us to give a prequalification letter. [22:41] JAMES: Right. [22:42] CINDY: On that letter thought, if we want to take it to, I always say, I want to upgrades your prequalification letter, just to upgrade its which means I'm going to now look at your source document. [22:53] JAMES: Right. [22:54] CINDY: Source documents are your tax returns to your tax returns, early day pay stubs. That's the critical part because we really want to look at the tax returns to see what are you writing off. If you're a W2 employee, to write off, [inaudible] 106 expenses, with your salary reimbursed expenses. Because if so, we may and I say may, have to charge that as debt because those are business expenses that you're claiming. There are different programs where you may be able to skirt around that like a W2 only program if you don't own any real estate, you might be able to eliminate that. The point is, is that we need to look at the documentation that will uncover potential issues and can give us a better direction of which way we want to take the financing. [23:50] JAMES: Right. [23:50] CINDY: Yeah, it's pretty much, it’s a prequalification letter. It's just reviewing the documentation or not. That, if you're realtor, that's one of the things that you should look at is the documentation. [24:04] JAMES: Yes. Yeah. Because I mean, the prequalification, and yeah, you spoke on. That you can go online and fill out some information and get a prequalification spit out. [24:13] CINDY: Yes. [24:13] JAMES: With no verification of anything, which is why I love the fact that you take it a step further. For all of us that are involved in the transaction. From realtor to lender, we wanted to be strong. Nobody wants to waste time going through contracts and inspections and everything kind of like that. [24:37] CINDY: No. You can raise so much money. Like you wait to you inspection fee, your option fee. [24:42] JAMES: For sure. [24:42] CINDY: Even lose your earnest money, appraisal. You talk in $3,000. [24:47] JAMES: Yeah. [24:48] CINDY: I always…the realtors that I work with, I always train them, teach their clients in the beginning because you're the front contact. Let's see, pair them with need and it's very easy to your tax returns to your W2's, a 30 day pay stubs, two month bank statements, and even the bank statements are pretty significant. Even ID, I mean we've uncovered…we don't look at the beginning and then things happen that's expired and they don't have time to go get it renewed or there's always something. Really, I always tell borrower. I said, it is a lot of extra work. There is no benefit to them, the consumer if they don't provide that upfront. [25:29] JAMES: Yup. [25:32] CINDY: Good realtors prepare their clients for that right in the beginning. When I come in and talk to them, they've already heard it from you, another hearing it a second time. Again I pushed for that. I can't make them do anything. I tell them what's that risk? If they don’t get those documents and they usually, I've never had a problem with anybody complying with that. [25:59] JAMES: Right. Yeah. I think you said it. Yeah, setting that expectation from my end before they ever really talked in and most of the time, not all the time, but most of the time, it's going to start with the agent. That is so important to set that expectation. [26:12] CINDY: Yeah. You're really the point of contact. This is your lead. [26:17] JAMES: Right. [26:17] CINDY: The relationship in some way. Either from a referral or somebody that's coming to you to buy a home and I'm just the support behind the scenes. You lay the groundwork. You're going to have more credibility because you know what you're doing because this isn't your first rodeo. Then when I get them, they've already heard it before. It's really the call about preparing them and making it easier for them.[26:43] JAMES: Absolutely. [26:43] CINDY: The financing process can be, we asked for lots of documents throughout the process from start to finish and consumers will always say, is this all you need? I tell them, I'm like, well this is all I need today. [26:57] JAMES: Right. That's right.[26:58] CINDY: I'm going to back up really people behind me that are going to look at your file in a completely different way than I do. The underwriter is going to ask for conditions that need to be cleared. The processor's going to ask for documentation, my production partner, and then we might ask you for the same document again because you might not be exactly what we need. We can ask for documents up until a week or less than a week before closing. You can prepare your borrowers for that and if that doesn't happen, then it's even better.[27:33] JAMES: Yeah, supplies. [27:35] CINDY: Yeah. [27:35] JAMES: Absolutely, yeah. Now I try and said that explanations for all my clients, so yeah. It could go up to the day or the week before. [27:46] CINDY: Yeah. [27:47] JAMES: Just prepare for it. If it happens, then you know. You knew it was a possibility and I think that just makes people feel so much better because…and it's not a difficult thing just to let people know. This is not. There's a lot. It's not a straight. It might go like this. [28:06] CINDY: Yeah. [28:07] JAMES: With the close. It's not just a straight…a straight. There're a lot of things that happened. A lot of adjustments that get made, kind of like flying a plane. We never really feel it for the most part, but there're a million adjustments that these pilots are making over in a plane. Out of my analogy when it comes to a mortgage loan, because it's the same thing. It starts off one way and eventually you'll get to your destination which is closing. It's not always just a smooth process and a pupil, so frustrated with it. [28:39] CINDY: When I'm there along the way, every step of the way, I tell my followers, you can follow me after 5:00 and you can call me on the weekends. There's going to a lot of stuff that it's going to be thrown at you and especially that first time home buyers, I'm here to help you to translate what somebody else is asking. I might not be specifically asking you, but somebody else has requested that non-certain. That's part of my job. There is service court, which is mortgage lenders like myself, local small lenders. That one of the benefits is the service and being available and for the realtor as well to call and know that every time they call me, I answered the phone and I can get my voicemail. You're going to get me. [29:30] JAMES: Yes. [29:30] CINDY: You can ask the questions and I'm going to give you a straight up answer or I'm going to find out the answer if I don't know. Figure it out because you're left on a, on a ship that with the captain.[29:44] JAMES: I had that happen. I know there're a lot of realtors, its happened. Lender just do this but I know I'm working with you for the past three years. You are truly aware. You do answer the phone. Whether it's good or not, you're not the lender who just takes off and which is amazing that it happens, but it does.[30:06] CINDY: Bringing bad news to people is not easy. There's nobody on the planet would like to do that. Especially, the largest purchase of your life and that would not be a good thing and I try to stay clear of that, meaning I don't have bad situations at my peak that I qualify either solid and if they're not which means there are some weaknesses in their credit profile, which there could be that prepare them for that. I can say, this is what we're…this is the plan, and I give them the option. Your ratios are super high. You've got these collections that could be an issue. Here's what you risk. Your option money, your inspection fee, your appraisal fee. I will tell them that its a weaker profile and let them make a decision if I want to move forward or not. It also tell my realtor that too, so that they can be prepared if I have to make that call and say we, there was a hurdle that we just couldn't overcome. Blindsided like, well, why didn't you tell me this? Because yeah, I haven't run into that yet, but I will and I would. That's how I would approach that there wasn’t a paper lending. [31:29] JAMES: Yeah. There's a lot of stuff that happens that we just, again we don’t have control over what this, what the transaction is. So many people involved with so many things that happened. It's just the nature of what we signed up for this. [31:46] CINDY: That's right. [31:46] JAMES: We have this business but we love what we do. We all do because it's…it can be a crazy, crazy business. It really can. You are really good at what you do. I will excel the builder, all my builder partners that I know of. They are looking for a dependable vender. You are definitely a… [32:11] CINDY: Thank you. [32:13] JAMES: I'm speaking from personal experience, so not mean I've worked with you and I've seen what you do. How can people get a hold of you? Website, phone number? What's the best way? I'm going to post your information as throughout but…[32:30] CINDY: Okay. [32:30] JAMES: Go ahead and give…what's the website and in your phone number where to reached for you. [32:34] CINDY: My phone number is the best way. [32:36] JAMES: Okay. [32:37] CINDY: 832-370-7373, that's the best way. [32:42] JAMES: Okay. [32:43] CINDY: Yeah. [32:44] JAMES: Got it. [32:45] CINDY: My phone and now we will…you can go from there. Apply online. I get a direct portal website for online applications. [32:53] JAMES: Right. [32:54] CINDY: Get notification when it started. Application started and I get a notification when it's completed through email. What I usually do is I call the borrower right away. Introduce myself. Go over the 103 with. [33:08] JAMES: Okay. [33:08] CINDY: My link to apply online is cindywest.nrlmortgage.com.[33:17] JAMES: Okay, say that on more time. Cindy West just one word.[33:18] CINDY: Cindy West one word dot NRL mortgage.com. [33:24] JAMES: Got It. Okay, I'll make sure I'll post that on so people can have that and say if there's…if someone just got some questions about that, that special program that you guys have because there's probably a lot more detail that you can speak with and that…or just any loan. You have it take conventional or Cindy does it all. [33:41] CINDY: That's right. Okay. [33:42] JAMES: She could help you guys and she will get you to the finish line. I promise you. She's really good at it and I appreciate your time Cindy. [33:52] CINDY: Thanks James. [33:53] JAMES: We will do this again. [33:55] CINDY: Yes. [33:55] JAMES: Now we're about to head and get into the holiday season here the next week or so. We'll make sure we do this again. We can sit here and talk for hours about this. There's so much talk about. [34:09] CINDY: There is. [34:10] JAMES: We'll do this again. I appreciate your time. [34:13] CINDY: Okay, thanks. [34:14] JAMES: We will do this again. Thank you so much Cindy. [34:17] CINDY: Okay James. [34:17] JAMES: You take care.[34:18] CINDY: Thank you. [34:19] JAMES: All right. [34:19] CINDY: All right. Bye. [34:20] JAMES: Bye-bye. If you like this episode of the Houston Home Talk podcast, please don't forget to like, share, and comment! We appreciate your support and feedback! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Beverly Langston from Bath Fitter joins us this week on the podcast, and we’re going to be talking about bathroom remodeling and renovations, and what sets them apart from the competition.Bath Fitter is an international company know for their state-of-the-art product line that includes acrylic bathtubs and shower liners, free standing bathtub and shower bases, acrylic seamless walls, domed ceilings, tub and shower doors, accessories and wainscoting.Know more about their services and products here! QUOTES“We are very versed in safety because bathrooms are very dangerous places no matter who you are. They’re slippery. So we have lots of different options for safety like grab bars, different types of grab bars, and we really work with our customers to make sure they’re getting everything they need so that everything is safe and secure, and usable and accessible for them.”MENTIONSBath FitterContact Beverly at:Office: 713-691-4110 orMobile: 281-636-3560Email: blangston@bathfitter.comSHOW NOTES[0:01:22.2] Bath Fitter: Who they are and what they do[0:04:11.2] Issues usually encountered when remodeling the bathroom[0:05:29.2] Converting the tub into a standing shower[0:06:56.0] Renovating and remodeling for investment properties[0:09:02.1] The origins of Bath Fitters, showrooms in Houston[0:10:54.1] ADA Compliance[0:12:06.7] Create your own custom bathroom on their site![0:13:17.6] Contact Beverly, Bath Fitter office hours[0:14:39.6] What happens during the consultation phaseFull Transcript:[00:03] INTRO: Welcome to Houston Home Talk featuring all things real estate in the Houston area. We'll interview real estate professionals, local business owners, and special guests from right here in the Houston community. This is where you get the inside scoop about what's new in real estate, new community openings and business openings and much more the Houston home talk show starts right now.[00:33] JAMES: All right. Welcome guys. Welcome to Houston Home Talk. My name is James and I am excited today I am joined by Beverly Langston from bath fitter and Beverly and I met just actually just not even a week ago at the sip and stroll and Katie and it was great getting a chance to meet you. How are you doing about really?[00:55] BEVERLY: I'm great. How are you?[00:57] JAMES: I'm doing great. Great. I wanted to have you on. SO as soon as I saw you in the booth, I wanted to have you guys come on and talk about what you do because I am a…in addition to roadster. I'm an investor as well and I think what you guys do can help anybody, but I was very intrigued by it and wanted to have you on. Thank you for coming on the show.[01:21] BEVERLY: Thanks for having. We're excited.[01:22] JAMES: Yeah, it's pretty cool. Why don't you tell, tell us a little bit about what it is that you guys do, how you got into it, a little bit more about bath fitter and I think it's pretty interesting what you guys do. I really do. Why don't we just start there and you introduce yourself to the audience.[01:40] BEVERLY: Sure. I'm Beverly Langston. I'm the event manager for Bath Fitter here in Houston. We are actually an international company. We're in Canada and the United States all over North America or United States. Our corporate office is right outside of Nashville, Tennessee. I've been here for about a year. I do mostly events and marketing and it's just a really amazing company, quite a unique product. It was started and the mid-80s about my [inaudible], four to be exact by three brothers, the Cotton Brothers. It started because one of them had had a baby and his wife said, I don't want to bath my baby in disgusting bathtub. He trying to figure out an economical way to repair the bathtub and make it look better and for it to be cleaner so that his wife would be happy because happy wife, happy life, right?[02:32] JAMES: Absolutely, yeah.[02:33] BEVERLY: They developed this system. The product is made out of acrylic which is really great for bathrooms because the bathrooms firmly are made…you have lots of tile, lots of grout, those kinds of things and they're porous which means they absorb the water. That's why you get all that mold and mildew in your bathroom which nobody likes and you can never ever get rid of. The acrylic is not porous. It will not ever mold and mildew ever.[03:01] JAMES: Okay. [03:02] BEVERLY: Very, very easy to keep clean. There's no scrubbing involved. Basically it's a spray cleaner if you have hard water, you either squeegee it or wipe it off with a cloth and that's it. That’s it. It's super easy to maintain as well which is a wonderful thing. Bath Fitters philosophy is we want everybody to walk into the bathroom and smile and be happy. We want to give you joy. We should all love our homes and our spaces so much and unfortunately the bathroom isn't one of those places where a lot of people are like, I just really hate it because of things like mold or mildew or maybe things are not updated so that's where the product, you know, it's great. It's a great solution for construction too because what we're most known for is our tub over tub system, which is where we can create a brand new bathtub that goes directly right over your existing bathtub. There's no like tear outs which is wonderful. Even if we do take out a product, it's still also a one day install. It's a very short timeframe.[04:06] JAMES: If you guys are going over the top of existing are there situations where maybe you're not able to just go over top or fruit for most bathrooms, I guess you guys have the ability to be able to really literally just go over top of everything that exiting. Is there any situation where maybe… [04:27] BEVERLY: There are. Sometimes there are plumbing issues that we might we have to people get. Most of the times we cannot go over fiberglass tub because the structure of them is weaker.[04:36] JAMES: Okay.[04:37] JAMES: We still have solutions for that. We can actually just remove those tubs that don't work and put in a brand new bathtub. Still with the product, still the great acrylic. Another thing that we do, we do showers as well the same way. We have a wall system that will go right over your tile. One of the greatest things about our wall system and we're the only company that does it, is it's seamless. There's in the corners is to bang on the material. There's no caulking or grout. It's not going to mold or mildew,[05:11] JAMES: That’s awesome. [05:13] JAMES: That’s is awesome. Literally there is no seam. I'm assuming then the corner is it rounded or --[05:16] BEVERLY: It depends on the material. We actually bend onsite. People always say to me, well, you're not going to get it through my door. Yeah, we will. You'd be surprised. You think you have a small doorway. We will get through it. The other thing that we do that's really, really popular now for a plethora of reasons is we take the tub out and turn it into a standing shower using the same footprint as that tub. You've got a long shower. I think a lot of people are in a point where they're not really taking baths like they used to like it's a waste of space. A lot of people also want to change it because of mobility issues, getting up and over the top. If you're older and if your short, it's very difficult so removing the tub and not having that 18 inches to get up and over is very, very popular. [06:07] JAMES: It's funny that you bring that up because a lot of people, when I sell homes or when I'm listing homes as a realtor, a lot of people for some odd reason they still ask for Tub. Most people don't use it.[06:20] BEVERLY: Yeah, yeah.[06:21] JAMES: Is baffling to me. It really is. I have a home in San Antonio where we actually built it with no tub. For some reason when we tried to sell it, like that came up at certain points, but I think now and that was I was eight, nine years ago. Now I think a lot has changed because of, like you said, the mobility for a lot of people as we start to mature, I'll use that word. Yeah, the tub. I have a tub. I never use it even now. My kids use it. That's awesome that you guys do that.Now do you guys have more like you, I guess your typical client. I don't know if you really have a typical client. I'm assuming you guys have people that are just looking to renovate, remodel, maybe investors. Maybe I could see that part of your product being awesome for a lot of people that may do an investment property where they don't have to come in and rip out. You guys don't have to come rip everything out. You could go over the exist and that's a big time saver because I've done some remodels and it can be expensive if I'm having to rip everything out[07:30] BEVERLY: Exactly, especially if you have an investment property where you have a tenants that leaving and you need to make a repair. It's pretty quick repair. The tub actually whether the shower whatever you're using has to get manufactured because it's all custom done so it's manufactured for you. Once the install happens it's a one day and the great thing is that with construction where there's a lot of dust and debris and dirt and it's sort of a messy process. We're not like that at all. The bathroom probably will be cleaner than when they walked into it. You've got a fresh, clean bathroom ready to show to your next tenant, which is wonderful. For residential, the product has a lifetime guarantee on it. For a rental facilities that's considered commercial. It doesn't have that lifetime guarantee, but I will tell you it really will last a very long time especially because in tenant situations people don't clean them as if was their property. That’s okay because the product is so sturdy and hold up so well to that. That is okay. I've talked with people that have had a rental property and the tub and the wall has been in there 30 years. Other than having to replace the caulk every few years it's been fine. [08:39] JAMES: Got it.[08:40] BEVERLY: We also do a lot of properties like hotels and apartment complexes, dormitories, lots of dormitories because kids.[08:50] JAMES: Okay. That’s makes a lot of sense.[08:51] BEVERLY: Yeah. Yeah, college students destroy things. They get in product for this. [80:59] JAMES: Absolutely. [09:00] BEVERLY: Yeah.[09:01] JAMES: Now you guys have locations. You said it started andI did not realize that you guys have been around for that long. You said the eighties. Where did this, I guess where the company originate and then where are you guys located in the Houston area? Because we're in the Houston Area. Where are you guys located? Where did things originate.[09:20] BEVERLY: It originated in Canada. That’s where the Cotton Brothers are from. Got some branches out in Canada, some stuff mostly with people who are buying in the franchises. There are some franchises store out there, but mostly they're all corporately owned stores. It is a US based company now though because our headquarters are in Springfield, Tennessee, which is right in [00:09:43] in Nashville.[09:43] JAMES: Okay. Yeah. Got it.[09:44] BEVERLY: It's manufactured here in the U.S. We manufacturer on acrylic. Everybody that works on it or all Bath Fitter employees. We never have third party. From the person that answers your phone call to the person who installs it. We are all Bath Fitter employees. We're behind our company. For Houston we are actually in the Garden Oaks District of the Heights, right off of Shepherd and Crosstimbers. We have a show room. We are welcome for people to come in and see the showroom and you have to that. If they're interested we'll send a consultant out to you and they have a mobile showroom they can bring you. If you are around and you wanted to come say hi, we love it. We love having people in here. We can give some more information here and let you see all the different models. We have garden tubs in our shower. We have the standard tub type of the tub. We have tub to shower. We also can change your shower into a bathtub, both ways. Really. Anything you want to do with your tub or shower, we can handle[10:52] JAMES: Got it. You guys can…not only just replace what is existing. You can actually do the remodeling more or less instead of ripping the tub complete out and just make it into a full shower?[11:05] BEVERLY: Yeah. We can. Yeah. Yeah. There's different color [inaudible], wall options as far style and things that people like. We even do showers for those who are wheelchair bound, who need an ADA shower.[11:20] JAMES: Yeah. I was just about to ask you about that because that's a big thing. I was about to ask you about ADA, being ADA compliant because I get a lot of clients that are looking for that so that is something that you guys have the ability to do as well.[11:32] BEVERLY: You can [inaudible] too as far the type of thresholds that we have with them or seat option. We are very, very verse also in the safety because bathrooms are very dangerous places no matter who you are. They're slippery. We have lots of different options for safety, like grab bars, different types of grab bars and we really work with our customers to make sure that they're getting everything they need so that everything is safe and secure and usable and accessible for them.[11:59] JAMES: That is awesome. In Houston that is the only location that you guys physically have here in the Houston. Go ahead…how can people look if they want to look on the website. What is the website? Go ahead and I'll post the website as well for people to be able to go and look and see what you guys have to offer. what is the website?[12:18] BEVERLY: Sure. The website is www.bathfitter.com.[12:22] JAMES: Okay.[12:23] BEVERLY: The website has got a great tool as well. You can watch some videos on how the process works. It also got a build your bathroom tool that you can imagine what you like, would it look like?[12:36] JAMES: that's awesome. That is awesome. Is it almost like a preview of what your bathroom would look like if you chose this or this --[12:47] BEVERLY: It's a virtual room to build your bathroom. [12:50] JAMES: Right[12:51] BEVERLY: On the computer so it's not going to look like it does in reality. It will show you how things will fit in certain ways. A lot of times when our design consultants go out, they use that tool as well on there. They always bring an iPad with them so that people can see and imagine it because sometimes when you actually see it put together, you're like I really don't like that soap dish. I want to be bigger. You could play around with it and see what you like.[13:18] JAMES: Got It. Got it. That is awesome. If anybody wants to reach out to you to have either email, phone number and I'll post that as well so people can reach out to you. I've got a lot of people that I work with but a lot of investors and a lot of clients that are looking for remodeling. I think you guys are very cost effective way of doing it which is really, really was intrigued when I saw what you guys did. Do you have like either a direct phone number for yourself or a… [13:44] BEVERLY: Sure. My office number is 713-691-4110. I also have a company cell phone and you can call me anytime on that which is 281-636-3560 You could e-mail me at blangstonatbathfitter.com. You're welcome to come by the store which is 356 Garden Oaks Boulevard.[14:08] JAMES: Awesome. What are your hours? What are your hours, Monday to Friday. Saturday. Tell us so we'll know what that is as well.[14:14] BEVERLY: We are Monday through Thursday. There's somebody here at 7:00 p.m. On Fridays we're open until 4:00 and on Saturdays there's somebody here from 10:00 to 2:00. Like I said we can bring everything to you. Our sales staff is great. Our consultants are great. If you can't make it in during those hours, we can come to you and we do have evening and Saturday hours or you book appointment for our consultants to come out.[14:39] JAMES: Awesome. Awesome. On the consultant, when they come out, I know you said everything was custom made so they look at the customer. Once they it out like is there…I'm assuming it's probably obviously case by case as far as how long it takes, Do you have… [14:59] BEVERLY: The process is really for us to give anybody a pricing we have … just like any home construction we've got to come out and take a look at what's going on in a bathroom.[15:05] JAMES: Sure. Sure.[15:08] BEVERLY: They'll come out. The first thing they generally do if they go into your bathroom and take out a lot of measurements because those measurements are what gets sent in when you decide to purchase. [15:18] JAMES: Right.[15:20] BEVERLY: They'll sit down with you and go over all options and all the colors and if there's any underlying problems with the bathtub or the bathroom, what those solutions would be. We do have a master plumber on staff. If there's some drainage problem or a leak somewhere, we can definitely get that fixed because we don't want to put a band aide on a problem. We want to make sure everything fits perfectly. The design consultants are really amazing people. We do understand sometimes we need to leave you with the estimate and let you think about it and they're not ever going to pressure anybody. When you decide that you want to purchase it, all of that goes to our plant in Tennessee. The product actually gets manufactured to fit your specifications. For instance, if Joseph Smith ordered a tub, it will have Joe Smith's name on it throughout the entire process up until it's actually put into their bathroom because that is Joe Smith's bathtub.[16:17] JAMES: Yeah. Awesome. Once you get it back, the actual installation, once it's put together, the actual installation process is about basically a day.[16:26] BEVERLY: It's one day, one day, unless we come across some problem. There are issues just like any construction. Sometimes you up a wall or whatever. For instance, we did a tub to shower renovation, we pulled that tub out and there was a tree root growing up underneath it[16:43] JAMES: Yeah.[16:44] BEVERLY: Our sales guy really tried to take care of that or installer trying to take care of it himself, but then he was worried he was going to damage the foundation. We stopped what we were doing. We made sure to have a professional…we met with the homeowner. They had somebody come out to fix that issue. We came back and finished it. The goal was one day but occasionally things happen.[17:08] JAMES: Yeah, it's amazing what happens behind walls. The reality is nobody really knows until there's a problem[17:18] BEVERLY: Yeah, unfortunately my guy – there's the times where I thought they're not going to finish it today and they always be like I was with a woman, very sweet lady. She'd had a knee and a hip replacement maybe six weeks out of surgery and decided she didn't want the bathtub. She wanted to shower and we took the tub out and there was this huge amount of concrete coming up from the foundation. We had to go run a Jack Hammer and it's still not done in one day. All done in one day.[17:44] JAMES: Yeah. It's amazing what happens. Unfortunately when these houses are being constructed whether it's new construction or 10 years or 15 or 20 years. The stuff that happens, it's amazing. I've seen a lot. I've been working for a few builders that I've worked for in the past and seen what happens as homes are being constructed. Yeah, it's amazing what can happen. So that's …[18:08] BEVERLY: Yeah. There had a been a ton of these structural support for the original tub that was there which was not the best option. That’s what happened. Our installers worked very hard to try to get everything done within that one day timeframe. I have done actual construction of a bathroom prior to me working here and not without a bathroom for a couple of weeks. That's not fun. We don't our customers to experience that.[18:34] JAMES: Yeah. No, I've, I've had to do the same thing. Yeah, it is a big hassle. Yeah. We like our bathrooms. We like our bathrooms and when were disrupted from being able to use one is it is definitely it disrupts my whole household. That's awesome that you guys…[18:52]BEVERLY: That’s what the construction does disrupt because there's so much dust and debris everywhere. Yeah.[18:57] JAMES: Awesome. Alright, I will post your website. Give me the website one more time Beverly.[19:03] BEVERLY: www.bathfitter.com.[19:06] JAMES: Okay. I will post that and then I'll also put your contact information. You guys share, reach out to Beverly. The service is, it's amazing. As soon as I saw it, I wanted to have you come on and talk about this because I think it's a really, really great way for people to save if they're looking to remodel or if someone's got an investment property. I think is a great alternative to ripping something completely out and investors like to save money. Actually we all like to save money. It's not even just for that matter who it is and I just think what you guys offer is a great alternative.[19:42] BEVERLY: It's great way to do it. Not have to redo it again in a few years. In the long run really cost effective.[19:51] JAMES: Yes, very, very important. I will post all that contact information there Beverly. Thank you so much. I appreciate you. It was a pleasure meeting you guys. [Inaudible] has been barely a week. That's how I'm sure what you guys l with you guys. We had a long conversation the other day. Thank you for coming on and you guys reach out. If you have questions, reach out to Beverly, www.bathfitter. That's FITTER dot com, correct?[20:19] BEVERLY: Correct.[20:20] JAMES: Got it. All right guys. Thank you. Thank you Beverly. I appreciate your time.[20:25] BEVERLY: Thank you[20:26] JAMES: All right. Take care.[20:27] BEVERLY: Take care. All right, bye-bye.If you like this episode of the Houston Home Talk podcast, please don't forget to like, share, and comment! We appreciate your support and feedback! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Welcome to the very first episode of the Houston Home Talk podcast! For our first episode, we have Willie Adolph from The Adolph Group, a company dedicated to educating others about their credit, and he’s going to talk about how we can manage our credit scores to how credit can affect the overall quality of your life.Want to learn more? Give this episode a listen! QUOTES“A lot of people feel that cash is king but credit can actually take you further.”“Credit is like reputation; It doesn’t matter all the good that you’ve done, but that one thing that you did wrong, people will spread that so fast.”“If you work with the system, the system will work for you”“When somebody takes a look at your report (credit score) it’s basically a reflection of what you’ve done, it’s not a reflection of who you are but it’s a reflection of what you’ve done”MENTIONSWillie Adolph (FB)The Adolph GroupContact Willie!Website: www.myfes.net/wadolphPhone: 281 451 7087SHOW NOTES[0:01:34.1] How to use leverage with credit[0:05:15.4] Credit Inquiries[0:06:16.7] Soft Pull VS Hard Pull[0:07:15.9] Case Study: Credit Karma[0:10:14.8] How co-signing can affect you[0:11:06.5] Credit restoration[0:14:03.5] Building/Maintaining your credit score[0:16:19.0] Which credit affect your score the most[0:18:25.7] How your credit is calculated[0:18:53.4] Models for credit scoring[0:20:40.0] What The Adolph Group does[0:22:47.4] How your credit will affect your overall quality of life[0:26:08.1] The advantages and disadvantages of having/not having a specialist assist you[0:32:49.0] A program that can help you have a better credit score[0:36:39.0] Contact Willie!Full Transcript: [00:03] Intro: Welcome Houston home talk, featuring all things real estate in the Houston area. We'll interview real estate professionals, local business owners, and special guests from right here in the Houston community. This is where you get the inside scoop about what's new in real estate, new community openings and business openings and much more. The Houston home talk show starts right now. [00:34] James: Yeah. You go ahead and introduce yourself, introduce your company and what we'll start there.[00:40] Willie: Okay. My name is Willie Adolph. I'm with MBS. I have a team called Adolf group. Basically what we do, we're here to help others educate them with about their credit. A lot of people feel that cash is king, but credit actually can take your whole lot farther because you can…you can use leverage with credit. A lot of people have a miss conception about credit. Everybody saying seven years in the final law. That's a myth. [01:08] James: Yeah, talk a little bit and more about that. Because I've heard that for years, seven years, seven years, seven years and a lot of people, it'll keep them from buying a house because they just, without contacting a professional like yourself to really know that hey, there's ways and that's seven year thing is a myth. Yeah, talk a little bit more about how that really works and how people can understand that meant, because I've heard it for year or two.[01:37] Willie: Right? Before I got into this, other place like, because I've been doing introducing credit since 2003. I've been messing around with the credit stuff for a long time because I started with the mortgage side. [01:49] James: Okay. [01:49] Willie: When I started with the mortgages, I had to kind of understand credit to help the clients that I had and then as I continue my career, I started learning more inter credit. When I dove deep into just learning about credit, it was around 2006, 2007 when that crash was coming. [02:09] James: Right. [02:10] Willie: Once they crash, it gave me more insight because it affected my family personally with. [02:16] James: Absolutely. [02:16] Willie: With the repossessions, foreclosures, things like that that was on my credit. Seven years, a lot of people say, well, with these seven years, they follow us off. Basically it's obsolete. You have a statute of limitation that it's on. [02:33] James: Right. [02:35] Willie: The problem is with a lot of people think that, so it's just like, I'm going to tell a company, 'Hey, I'm reporting this person later.' [02:44] James: Right. [02:45] Willie: I'm reporting it to the credit bureau. The person that the credit gear is not going to sit there and say it's seven years. 'Hey, guess what? We need to go ahead and take that off.' Technically, it has to be requested off because it can stay on your credit report for our life. It just doesn't fall off. It's just like home purchasing when they have the PMI is supposed to fall off, you get 20%. [03:10] James: You read my mind. Because that's where I was going. That's exactly what I was going to say. Go ahead. I'll let you continue.[03:16] Willie: Yeah. Technically, the mortgages company going try to ride and as long as they can but it wants you to realize, hey, I got 100% equity in my home. You have to contact the mortgage company, they request it off. [03:31] James: Absolutely. [03:30] Willie: There're a lot of things and with credit, a lot of people here, it's a law that was passed that anything negative on your credit report, you're allowed to…you'd be allowed to investigate. [03:44] James: Right. Right. [03:45] Willie: When a lot of people fail to understand that we're credit repair, it's not saying it's not your debt, but what it is saying that what's on there has to be accurate. It has to be verifiable and it can't be too old. Out of those three things, if it's one of those three, it has to be deleted. A lot of people don't know that if they're off by $100, $5, it has to be deleted because it's called inaccurate information.Even for like repossessions, a lot of people fall on hard times. With the repossession, you could have put a lot of money down and the car may still have a little value. Let's say for instance you owe $5,000 and they take the car back or you give it back. Voluntary repossession is still repossession. Majority of the time, if they repossessed the car, what they're going to try to do to it, if it's still in good condition, they're going to try to sell it. When you turned it in, it was $5,000 but what if they sold it for 40,000, will you own the 5,000? No.[04:50] James: No, definitely. [04:51] Willie: Now you only owe 1,000. They're supposed to contact you and let you know that hey, your car was sold and you're supposed to…there is the difference of what it is. It's the bill of sale. A lot of people don't understand the leverage that that credit has. Nowadays, rental history, before they pull your background, they looking at your credit.[05:13] James: Yeah. It's crazy. Because I mean, honestly, you can speak on this because it affects almost everything right now. I am a huge fan of the Dave Ramsey. [05:24] Willie: Yes. [05:25] James: I do. I like Dave Ramsey. As far as I haven't any credit, I mean honestly it affects job situations. It's his job. The employers check credit now. I'm not digging that all of them but I know I will check credit. Insurance, I mean it's virtually everything but its close. It's real close. Yeah, you can go ahead and you can kind of expand on that a little bit more. It's basically affect there. [05:51] Willie: Credit has so much to do with your down payment. Credit has so much to do with your interest rate and all you have some insurance company they say well it doesn't matter what your credit ain't doing what they call a soft core. [06:02] James: Right. [06:03] Willie: When they do a soft pull, they're looking at your credit history and basically your credit history is like your car telling you what you've been doing within the past few years of your financial life.[06:16] James: Yeah. Explain a sophomore versus a heart and so people understand the difference. Because I mean know the…yeah, people may not understand the difference between them, so again, explain that a little bit about the sophomore versus a parting firing.[06:27] Willie: Okay. Well that sounds cool is when a company, say for instance, sometimes like a light company. They can do, it's like a snapshot of your credit. [06:39] James: Right. [06:40] Willie: What they do is they look at it and they kind of judge and see if you have anything that's basically, do you owe them? Yeah. When you do a hardcore, they're contacting the bureaus…[06:54] James: Right? [06:54] Willie: They're getting all the information from all three bureaus or depending on if you're pulling a car, they only pulled from certain bureaus. When you're doing a home, they pulled it from all three bureaus. That's what you consider a harp pool and harp pools does affect your credit.[07:11] James: Yes. Then that's another differentiating factor too because a lot of people think, and I definitely want you to talk about this. There're so many resources out there for people to go get their credit. Get their…[07:21] Willie: Right. [07:23] James: What I get a lot is, people will tell me, they'll call me and want to, you know, they want to, are they looking, they're buying the house and they'll say, 'Hey, we're now pulled by credit, three weeks ago, three months ago. I have an 80.' I'm like, okay, well listen, and you guys…yeah, I want you to talk about this because the difference between like Credit Karma or all these other resources that people have versus them getting a mortgage. I know a mortgage, when you get any mortgage credit qualified a mortgage, it's the most thorough reports you're going to get even more so than a car already anything in my opinion. Yeah. Talk a little bit about that like the hard, like kind of the differences there.[08:07] Willie: What we've noticed over the past years, Credit Karma, they give you more of a snapshot of what your credit. [08:17] James: Right? [08:16] Willie: They give you free credit analysis. [08:21] James: Yes. [08:21] Willie: What I've seen in the past is that the numbers are off because they don't actually pull directly from the credit bureaus updated file. Perfect example, I have a client right now that she called me and she was like, 'Hey, I just need to get my scores up to a 680. I just checked on Credit Karma. I'm at a 622.' We was like, okay. Let's do it. We're glad to go through the process of eliminating this and that and see what we can do. When we actually, I said, well matter of fact, go talk to my friend that works at the mortgage company. Let's see where we stand so we can actually do a real hard pool and come to find out she was at may have fives.[09:13] James: Yeah. I've seen about that. [09:16] Willie: That's a big difference. If you're at a 622, and you're now at the mid of 5, that's like 60 some points and one point can actually kill any kind of deal and depending on what company you're going through. When you go with Credit Karma, it gives you a snapshot. They can't, they offer a lot of stuff to you to try to be more aware of your credit. To be accurate about your credit, you have to be more mindful of what's going on when you coast time for somebody. If they mess up, it falls on YouTube. A lot of people think that, well that's not mine. No. It is. It's, I'm sorry to say and you can't just call them and say, look, take my name off. No, because you're the reason why they got it.[10:04] James: Right, right. Yes. This means is that you too, I'm like you're supposed to have. I go sign and you might as well be the top signer because it really doesn't matter to get one of the names. It counts the same. [10:20] Willie: Yes. [10:20] James: That co-signer to get, I mean I've seen people get just completely get there, kind of ruined by it. My co-signer for somebody. [10:28] Willie: Right. [10:29] James: People not to, uh, whenever, you know, whenever looking to own a home because yeah, especially when…yeah, I see that all the time too, if somebody's is full stop and maybe that one debt is really keeping there for what. They got to go look at maybe trying to refine and other way, it's really [inaudible] [00:10:48] and so we finance it. There's no other way, like you said, kangaroo take, you know, take my name off of it. Yeah. That's definitely, I see that all the time. I'm like when I talked to people about credit, I don't like to use credit rest of that. For some credit repair has a negative connotation. I don't know why but for real estate, the bottom line is we need to, we need to move from here to here. [11:18] Willie: Right. [11:20] James: I call it. For you guys, I know there's not a one size fits all because everybody's situation is different. If you're working with somebody, do you guys give them a, I guess is it just based on situation to say base on what I see here, I think let's say two months, three months or how do you guys break that down when people come to you for to look at that. [11:43] Willie: Technically what it is everybody, like you said, it's a case by case scenario. [11:48] James: Right? Yeah. [11:49] Willie: Nobody can guarantee you anything. Basically everything is computer generated and it, but it's calculated as well. We're looking at the credit, the good thing about what we have to offer to the clients is that we have a similar what if scenario. What happens is, what a what if scenario? What if I pay this down, this down, this down, or pay this off, this off this off. It gives you a calculation. If you do this, you have an opportunity to get this score from where you're at now. Now is it 100% on point? No. [12:25] James: Right. [12:25] Willie: It gives you a snapshot of, hey, if you do this, you would be in that ballpark figure. It's just, it's hard for me to eyeball it and say, but what I do know if you're late, you hurt yourself.A lot of people also don't know. So let's say for instance, March has 31 days in that, right? You have a payment due on the 1st of March. Some people say, 'Oh man, I made the payment on the 15. I'm late.' Okay, you're late with the company, but you're not late with the credit. [13:02] James: Right, right. [13:02] Willie: Because you have to be a certain amount of days, which is 30. Now, some people will say, okay, well I'm going to make my payment at the end of March, which is the 31st. Guess what? You are late now. Even though you paid in March. [13:17] James: Right. [13:17] Willie: Because that is a perceptive, well I still pay on March. Yeah, but you paid on the 31st, that's past 30 days. You have to realize 30 days is 30 days. We have 28 days. You really technically anything after the 2nd of March, now you're late unless you get that leap year. There're a whole lot of things, a whole lot of variables that a lot of people don't think. They look at, well, I paid in March, it's March. No, it's the days. Then you also have to look at your calculations. You have to realize, you have to probably even call your company and ask when do they report to the credit bureaus? [13:57] James: Right. [13:57] Willie: Because your credit cards are not all reporting at the same time. Now the way to build your credit is to keep your maximum balance up on the 30%. You can charge you whatever, but you have to realize once you charge over 30% regardless if you're making that payment on time, you're going to get hit because you're overextending yourself. You're spending your…what they say you're living on other people's money and and you get deemed for that at the beginning.[14:31] James: Yeah. No. Yeah, and I use it. That's the rule I give everybody. I always say 30% I'm not real sure where the game for a while, so probably sometime long, long ago somebody mentioned that to me. I was going to ask you about that because that's what I, that's kind of the advice I'd give people when they're looking at because that's probably, yeah, I want you to talk about like the way that these girls put on a mortgage credit card versus maybe not necessarily specific percentages, but I'd rather different weight for different things. I stop my loans and mortgages so forth.[15:07] Willie: Your biggest weight is your payments. That's 30% of how everything is graded on your credit. A lot of people look at it the wrong way for the simple fact is that they feel that, okay, if I make my payments on time, my scores are going to boost up tremendously. [15:30] James: Right? [15:30] Willie: What they fail to understand, yeah, your scores are going to go up as long as you keep that balance low. [15:37] James: Right. [15:37: Willie: They're going to go up. The problem is, I look at it like it's almost like somebody's reputation and you look at it like this, it doesn't matter all the good that you've done that one thing, that one thing that you did wrong, people will sprint that so fast and your credit is the same way. You make that one late payment. Guess what? Your scores can drop anywhere from 20 to 70 points off of one late payment.[16:10] James: That doesn't matter whether it's a credit card, a car, honestly, I know a mortgage payment, you probably take the biggest skin if you're, if you have ever had like a late or…[16:21] Willie: Mortgage? Yeah, mortgage and cars take the biggest hit, but also the credit cards take a big hit is what the mortgage take I think the biggest hit for the simple fact, if you try to purchase another home…[16:38] James: Right. [16:38] Willie: The first thing they, the mortgage, another mortgage company is looking at is your mortgage history. Rental history, whatever history is where you live and what they look at is that, I have a, I have a client right now is that we're disputing their late pay. [16:54] James: Right. [16:54] Willie: You can actually get that negative off of there because at the same time they have to verify how were you late the days and the thing is, is that it's going through the credit bureaus that fight these for you. A lot of people think that you go straight to the creditor, sometimes you can work a deal out with them, but a lot of times you're going to lose that battle because they're in it for the money. You're not in it for the people there any for that bottom line.[17:23] James: No, that makes sense, man. When people are looking at getting a mortgage, it's, there's a lot of stuff that people do and what they don’t know, for me, I found that it's usually when they're looking at buying a house is when a lot of stuff comes up. That they just didn't work for. [17:41] Willie: Right. [17:43] James: If you're buying a car, you're trying to get a credit card. It never really comes. There's a lot of you can get away with just buying a car. The car that you go recently is a, what it can. It's just different but while you get it, while you back in the mortgage for example is just I felt like all of the stuff you didn’t know about your credit pass also come up. Never faills. [18:04] Willie: Exactly. [18:13] James: When it felt back and I'm getting more of it, so. [18:08] Willie: Yeah, I forgot about that. [18:10] James: I have this all the time. Yeah, all the time. All right, well…[18:14] Willie: Well James, they give you…they give you a little better percentage. You got the way that your credit is calculated, 35% of your payment history, 30% of your year amount use 15% of the length of your credit, 10% is your new credit and 10% is the type of credit that is used. Yeah. Basically all of that is calculated into what your scores are as of today, every vendor is supposed to pull from the credit bureaus. All of them don't.[18:52] James: Yeah. It's frustrating too because all the bureaus, and we could speak on this a little bit too, because you got Equifax, Transunion, and Experian. [19:02] Willie: Experian. [19:03] James: They don't all necessarily treat everything It's frustrating for me because they all do stuff different that's through scores. Yeah, maybe you talked a little bit about why that is. I don't know if you'd have to know what the why is or why they do that. I don't know if it's…cause you're getting a mortgage. Of course they look at all three scores and then they take the middle. [19:27] Willie: Right. [19:28] James: That's the fair way to do it because they all have different models.[19:33] Willie: Correct. The way that the model work, I didn't mean to cut you off. The calculations are the same. [19:40] James: Right. [19:41] Willie: It's the reporting. Everybody doesn't report to the bureaus they're saying.[19:46] James: Okay.[19:49] Willie: I may report to Transunion but not report to Equifax.[19:51] James: I made the report there also.[19:53] Wilile: No, see a lot of people think that the government, that the, the bureaus are governmental rule. They're not. That's a myth. They're not governed by the government. This is an independent source. They're making billions of dollars. They're not governed…they're not regulated by the government. It's crazy that they have…those three numbers have so much power over what you can do with your life, what you could do with purchasing and things like that. And a lot of people just really don't understand the power of credit. When you work with me are, our company. We not just only give you the opportunity to restore your credit, we educate you on your credit. You get your own private portal to where you have a snapshot of what's going on with your credit at all times.You can wake up at two o'clock in the morning and say, Hey, what's going on? We have what they call a progress report but a lot of people…we live in a microwave society. What I mean by that, we put in the microwave. We hit the popcorn button and guess what happens. It's done. We don't…we're not old school where you have to warm up the oil, put the popcorn in, shake it around and take its time. We want everything. I paid this and this should go to…no it takes time. Negative stuff does spread faster than pot the thing.[21:31] James: I'm glad you said that cause I'd rather browse…to say, it's funny because when you screw up trying to fix it now. If the creditor makes the mistake though, it's like pulling teeth trying to get them to fix it. Now visually to stay on it, you'll get it fixed. A lot of people just don't have the patience to deal with it. That's where you can come in and help people that are in that situation. Yeah, when you screw up it's like Bam, they hit you a hard real quick but trying to fix a mistake from a quick, it's just the opposite. It's not a microwave fix when it comes to them screwing up but when you do it is the microwave[22:12] Willie: It's like bam. We got you. We got you. A lot of people…[22:17] James: You have some people like it is what it is. These are the rules. This is the sandbox we're in. It's their rules. If you want to play in their sandbox, this is what you got to do. That's not cool. If you just don't…If you want to try and go through life without credit at all? I guess you can. That's what Dave Ramsey advocates. It makes it challenging in a lot of situations when you're trying to, look I'd say even just from applying for job or getting…[22:48] Willie: Like a mortgage Insurer…[22:50] James: Brad was insured for that matter. Literally everything gets checked. Even if it's a cell phone, it's still having an effect because they can say no.[22:58] Willie: Even for cell phones. Okay. So here's another thing. When you look at credit, okay, you have to have credit to get into this apartment, to get into this house, whatever which ones. Guess what? You have to have lights. What do they do? They pull credit. Not saying they're going to deny you buy you may have to pay a deposit. [23:21] James: Exactly, yeah.[23:23] Willie: You may have to…when you do your gas, when you do cable, internet, anything that you do nowadays, they pull credit. I've always thought different. It's like, okay, well if I got bad credit, why are you making my payments so harder. If I'm struggling now with these payments, how are you going to give me a higher? It's one of them lessons you have learn. If you want good things, you have to treat things good.With us, we involve our clients with every step of the way. We make sure that they are involved in it. A lot of people say, well, why didn't you do that? Well, if you put skin into the game, you're going to be more involved with it. You're going to make sure that I'm not messing it up? I'm not going to let nobody mess it up and things like that. We're here to educate. It's not we're going to fix it. No, we're going to educate you during the whole process. It's not fixing anything. It's restoring it and making sure. Can you do this yourself? You can. You definitely can. That just like when you go to court, you don't have to have a lawyer. You can represent yourself. There's so many ins and outs that you may not know. [24:37] James: That’s right.[24:36] Willie: I always say, can you change your own oil? Sure you can. Do you really want to go through that hassle? If you want it…[24:45] James: thank them for us. I'm a realtor. Yeah, you could sell your home on your own.[24:49] Willie: Right.[24:50] James: A lot of times they're the same thing. There's so much stuff that goes into it that you may not know when it comes to contracts and stuff that comes along with title. Maybe you roll on the dice. eah, could you do it? Yeah, you could. Why not pay an extra for having the expert that knows exactly what they're doing. They're going to save you a whole lot of time and in the case of real estate, most of the time having in Asia people will actually get more money when they…versus them selling. I don't know. A lot of people would think it's flipped. There might be a case by case situation where that's not true. For the most part I say to them to get an expert.Yeah, you can figure out anything you want. Just go to YouTube. everything is YouTube. People got a lot of stuff going on. The credit thing for me, I'm like, man, you need, I can get an expert because it is. It's not something like you say, it's not a microwave. You know what you're doing. Yes, people could figure it out. Consistency and staying on top of these boroughs before you see change. Most people in my experience, they don't have the -- they don't have the patience to do that and so you guys are what you do for people. It's great.[26:04] Willie: I appreciate that. For what you guys do, a lot of people say, well all you're doing is opening the house and showing the house. It's a lot more. It's a whole lot more behind that. You guys have to take on the liability of making sure that perfect example, if a house is flooded and somebody comes in there and paint the house and cover everything up it's your fiduciary to make sure that that client is taken care of, that they're not stepping into a mold trap or stepping into things that's going to hurt them later down the line. You guys do a great job of helping out the clients as well. It's a hand in hand thing that what we do. A lot of people said we don't work fast enough.here's the thing.Here's the thing. It's not that we don't work fast enough. You just destroyed your credit faster than we can repair it. Paying your bills, taking care of it, being responsible. Don't get me wrong. Life happens. Things happen in life. There's uncontrollable things that I've been there. I've had repossessions. I've had foreclosures. At the same time with credit restoration, there had been mistakes reported incorrectly that was able to be deleted and removed off of my credit report. That's our thing is that we are here to help. Are we going to sit here and say it's going to be fixed right away? No, we can't promise that that first round that we do is going to be taken care of. I'm never going to tell…I set expectations. You're going to take three months. You're going to see some improvement. [27:47] James: Right.[27:48] Willie: Six months is when you're going to see great improvement. At the same time, your improvement and my improvement is totally different. You have people out there that says, in 30 days your score's going to go up. Guess what? They're not lying if and go, if you had a 500 and you go to 501.[28:07] James: Yup. Exactly, that’s right. It went up.[28:11] Willie: It went up.[28:10] James: It's funny. I just referred to the day. It's a guarantee we're going to get you to, I think it was like 720 and I'm just laughing like how are you making this guarantee because everybody, there was no one person and I don't do credit restoration. I've been around a lot of it to know everybody. There is no one situation that repeats itself exactly the same way. I'd probably be doing this. There's probably nobody that's like, exactly the same.[28:40] Willie: No. You might have some similarities. When people say, we can raise your scores guaranteed. The problem with that is I'm going to tell you my guarantee is satisfaction guarantee. If you work the system, the system will work for you. I'm not going to guarantee because he was another thing that I've run across my years. Even easing at that as of last month, I still run through this thing. People say, it doesn't work. You know why it doesn't work? Because you don't allow it to work. What I mean by that, if we do remove some negativity your scores will go up a little bit. Perfect example, I have client. We removed six items. Scores went up 52 points, great job. They missed paying a bill and then scores dropped 65 points. Then they're down what? so that’s 13 what? 13 points under from where we started.They got…they was like, hey, you said my scores will go…it did go up. When you didn't make this payment. You got to stay with it. You understand? No, I don't understand. You know that this is this. This is that. I do understand times do come where we have to pick and choose or what, what's going to happen. Here's another thing. A lot of people don't know that if you have a collection…I will use a cable company and they're coming after their debt. Of course, they sold it to a collection company and now they're trying to fight. You can't have two people coming after the same day. [30:24] James: Right. Right.[30:25] Willie: that's against the law. Some people don't know that. We have to remove that. We also clean up your history of where you live of addresses because sometimes there's a typo O because you may have 6502 but then on your credit report it says 6520. A bank is going to say why is this like that?This is where we can remove things like that. Phone numbers, employment history, misspell of your name, nicknames. A lot of times that we do come across, like for instance, my dad is a senior. I'm a junior so when you say Willy Adolf, they can have all my dad's information on there. It may not be good that I need that because it's not accurate information and vice versa. They might have been some bills that I didn't take care of and my dad be like son, you need to get this taken care of. We are very diligent on making sure that when somebody looks at your report, it's a really a reflection of, of what you've done. It's not a reflection of who you are. It's a reflection of what you've done.We try to make sure that when creditors and vendors look at your credit report, we try to make sure that it is clean as it possible. We want to make sure that all the I's are dotted and the T's are crossed. Do we get everything off? No. Why? Because some stuff is reported correctly, is reported accurately, and it's still within that timeframe of statute of limitation where it has to be on there. We're not here to say we can get everything off because nobody can just get everything off. You got to be careful of who you let put stuff on your credit because it's technically illegal to do that. It's credit fraud. There are things that you can add to it. We have what we say credit rent. Basically what credit rent is, this is good for people who have lack of trade lines.They need some more to help boost their scores. How many times had you pulled somebody or seen somebody's credit and their rental history is on there? You don't see that? Guess what? Miss that payment and it'd be on there. We offer programs that's legal that you can actually go back two years and put that positive trade line on there and that helps with their spores. That helps with their rental history. We also offer secure credit cards because here's the funny thing, you go to a bank and tell them I want a secure credit card. That means I want to give you my money to open up a line of credit. Guess what's the first thing they do? Pull your credit. [33:17] James: Yeah. I'm giving you my money [33:22] Willie: Guess what happens? I don't like what your credit look like. You're denied. You're denying me for me to give you my money to put on this card to spin and yes they will. We offer services to that. Now, the thing is, is that now once you put your money on there, how are you going to treat that car? This is what the credit bureaus now look at. Even though it's your money and you give your credit card, $300 that doesn't mean you have $300 of spent. That means you're showing the three bureaus, hey, let me show you what, how I can manage this money because after x amount of time, you can graduate and then it goes to unsecure and then that means now you're trusted with somebody else's money. [34:05] James: It's almost like having a debit card, but you get to use it to build up your score. Actually, obviously a debit transaction report. Essentially it's a debit card that gets reported to the credit bureaus in essence is what it is.It's important for a lot of people, especially people that don't have any credit or just people that may have just had some stuff come up in the past where it's just, you know, they had a bad situation. That's kind of like I said, like everybody's problem at this at some point. I've dealt with it before. Yeah, that's secure credit card. I did not know that. That's actually a nugget because I didn't know that you could get denied for secure credit card. I didn't even know that. [34:46] Willie: Yes, I ran across that many and many a times and it still baffles me that how can you get denied. There's several banks out there, I'm not mentioning them, but there are several banks out there that will deny. You just got to make sure. Another thing that we offer with our service is on top of the education, on top of showing you how you can do debt, get to your…clear your debt, how you can pay your debt, how you can pay your house off, or how you could pay your car loan or how can pay your credit card off.We have so many tools. We have credit protection. We offer life lock part of our program. Because every two seconds somebody that identity is getting stolen. Somebody's identity just got stolen. Now you're getting alerts of what's going on. We offer credit monitoring. All of this is part of it. We say for instance, now we're going into the tough times up. We have stuff that we can prove that is inaccurate or unverifiable but the creditor is being real stubborn about it. Part of the service is we have created attorneys on staff to help fight that. Another thing, you get those phone calls on your job at home, our credited attorneys take care of that as well to stop the harassing calls for the simple fact is that we get that taken care of for you because you're not allowed to be harassed.[36:15] James: Right. That's awesome man. Lots to go man. Listen, tell people first of all, how did you get to get in touch with you guys? Would it be website, social media, whatever it is. Let people know how they can reach out to you guys, their knee if they've just got questions about anything. We just talked about anything else often they want to maybe address to you personally? How to get a hold you.[36:38] Willie: To get a hold of me, you can always call me or text me at (281) 451-7087, If you want to go to my website and just check out everything that we offer and what we have, you can go to www.myfes.net//wadolph. That’s W-A-D-O-L-P-H. On their it has so many opportunities[37:09] James: I'll add that on here so people can easily just click there and access it. Let me ask you one last question. You're based in Houston. It doesn't really matter where people are, right?[37:16] Willie: No, I'm, I'm actually bonded under the company. I'm bonded and licensed in all 50 states. [37:22] James: Awesome. That’s great to know. [37:26] Willie: Everybody can call me. Call for Will because you know, if you have, will you have a way. I am Will,[37:33] James: I appreciate your time. Listen, we will do this again because this is one of those things that you can't just touch. This is something I would see it for what I do and I know your wife she's a realtor as well. All of us. This is something we will definitely, I will have you on again and we'll talk some more about this but I appreciate your time man[37:52] Willie: I appreciate you, and think about this for all the realtors out there. If this is something that you're interested in, how can you learn about it? Reach out to me because you can do the same thing. You can help your pipeline out, help grow, add value to your service anywhere instead of sending it somewhere off to someone, you can give them the same information. Just reach me. (281) 451-7087.[38:25] James: Sounds good man. I will get that out. Like I said, I'll post that website as. well. Again, I appreciate your time and, yeah, you guys you got to have questions. Give Willy a call or reach out to him on his website and we will have you on again brother, I appreciate your time.[38:40] Willie: Hey, I appreciate you having me on. I really appreciate it. Thank you very much.[38:42] James: All right Willy. All right, man. You take care. Have a good evening. [38:46] Willie: All right. You too. Thanks.If you like this episode of the Houston Home Talk podcast, please don't forget to like, share, and comment! We appreciate your support and feedback! See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

This week's guest is writer, comedian, and producer Kunal Arora. Kunal finds out the hard way this show has no structure! We make fun of Kunal for his "name change", James can relate! Did you know that James name used to be "Mad Dog"? We determine which one of us is the most racist. James goes on an epic rant and also wants to know why THERE ARE NO STARS FOR HIM ON INSTAGRAM! According to James I'm back in rare Yamaneika form! Take a listen as we just have a good old-time!

The Flavor MatrixThe Art And Science Of Pairing Common Ingredients to Create Extraordinary DishesBy James Briscione with Brooke Parkhurst Suzy Chase: Welcome to the Cookery By The Book Podcast with me, Suzy Chase.James: I'm James Briscione, author of the new book The Flavor Matrix, which I wrote with my wife Brooke Parkhurst.Suzy Chase: Let me just start with a few of your impressive titles. Director of Culinary Research at the Institute of Culinary Education, ICE. Celebrity Chef. The first ever two-time champion of Chopped. I'd like to add culinary scientist to the list because you teamed up with IBM super computer Watson to discover flavor combinations based on different foods compatibility. Before we dig into the book, I'm dying to hear about your time at IBM and cooking with Watson.James: Thank you so much for having me on, Suzy. That was really an incredible experience that changed so much for me in the way I cook, and the way I think about cooking, and flavor. That opportunity, working with chef Watson, which all began in my role at ICE, the Institute of Culinary Education. IBM came to us at ICE with this idea about how they wanted to use a computer to help people be more creative. I kind of heard that pitch and just kind of laughed in their faces, like "Yeah, right. Like a computer knows more about cooking than me." I was very skeptical going in. But I thought "You know what? Let's give it a shot, let's see what happens. If anything, I can say that I beat the computer." I was feeling very cocky. We went through this kind of experiment really. No one really knew what was going to happen or how it was going to turn out. Where a computer was suggesting ingredients that we would then take into the kitchen and use the created dish really from scratch. No measurements, no quantities, no instructions on how to use ingredients, just Watson told us that you could use these ingredients to create a dish, and it's going to taste good if you do it right, basically. Immediately as I saw these combinations of ingredients were coming, I was like "Why? Why does it say that those ingredients would be good together?" Then, we'd started kind of working backwards through the system and finding some of the science, and some of the connections that Watson was making just using this incredibly dense data essentially about flavor. I was absolutely fascinated by the process, and really just kind of ignited me to want to go learn more about it. I realized, that information didn't really exist anywhere outside of the most powerful super computer in the world. That's what put me on the journey to start creating The Flavor Matrix.Suzy Chase: I'm going to read a passage from the book that blew my mind. "Strong pairings in a flavor matrix like citrus or olives indicated that there may be a greater connection between the ingredients. It shows that the ingredients have something in common, maybe they're native to the same area, or have a botanical relationship, or similar flavor profile." Was that something that Watson kind of came up with?James: It was something that, as I kept looking at the data and seeing these connections, and in research, I mean, just a massive amount of research that went into creating The Flavor Matrix that I started seeing and we saw these really strong pairing scores between different ingredients. There was a reason for them. We could often trace them back to something I think olive, olive is one of the most interesting examples. It also kind of sent us down this path ... there's the age old adage of what grows together goes together. There seems to be a lot of evidence through a lot of these pairing scores that we saw that a lot of flavor in ingredients is derived from the environment. Plants that are native to similar geographical areas tend to be good matches. Because there's things from that environment that are kind of imprinting certain parts of the flavor into that food, which to me was really fascinating. That thing can be a whole other rabbit hole to go down at some point, and spend another couple of years researching.Suzy Chase: Talk about the old and new model of combining flavors.James: For me, as a chef, I learned, it was just something you learn. You cooked a lot as a young chef, I was going to create a new dish, I was going to make something with oysters. If I didn't know immediately what the best ingredients to pair with oysters, or I just go to my massive collection of cookbooks and pull down every single one, or the ones that I like the best, and go to the index and look up oysters and start looking at the ingredients that other chefs use. You learned a lot from what you saw and tasted in other places and through your own experience. Building what we call taste memory, so that in my mind I know the flavor of an oyster now, and I know the flavor of a shallot, and I can kind of mentally combine those two without actually having to taste them. But it relies so much previous experience, or having some familiarity with an ingredient. I think nowadays we have such incredible access to ingredients. We can have ingredients from all over the world at our door in 24 hours if we just click a button and pay enough money for it. To me, I think it's helpful to have another tool in your arsenal, another way to think about flavor and analyze flavor to make decisions about what ingredients go together. That's The Flavor Matrix, which is, for sports fans, I liken it to the analytics of cooking. In Baseball, and other sports analytics are big, and you're looking at stats, and using data to kind of make evaluations. That's the same thing we do in The Flavor Matrix. In this case, the data is the chemical compounds in each ingredient that create the flavor in that ingredient. We're talking that we're down to the molecular level, talking about each one of these individual little compounds and in something like a strawberry, there are just over 400 different compounds that combine to make the flavor of the strawberry. Only a few of those are readily perceptible by nose. When you slice into a strawberry, you're going to be able to detect some of them. There are so many more that make up the flavor of the strawberry that we don't necessarily, wouldn’t necessarily detect on our own with the nose. But, when we're able to look at those ingredients, or look at those compounds in analysis, then we can start finding these hidden connections between ingredients because when two ingredients have a bunch of these compounds in common, we can very accurately predict that they're going to taste good together when we combine them in a dish. Just how we land at something like mushrooms and strawberries together in a dish. Where that doesn't make any sense, and I would never put those together on my own. But through the research, we see that connection and go on. That's kind of an interesting weird thing, but it actually tastes really great.Suzy Chase: God, it's so logical. No one has ever talked about this. That's crazy.James: We talk about it in the book, kind of the origin of this whole concept. It is quite new, especially if you look it at the scope of all cooking. It's less than 20 years ago, Heston Blumenthal and his research team at The Fat Duck kind of put this theory forward, the flavor pairing theory. Yeah, it's been kind of quiet in a few chef nerd circles just for a little bit. It hasn't moved much beyond that, and really it didn't kind of make its way into my radar until five, six years ago when we started working with chef Watson, who was using flavor pairing theory to make some of its decisions about ingredients.Suzy Chase: You mentioned taste memory earlier, and this book relies on chemistry rather than taste memory. Explain what taste memory is.James: I think it's important, with the book, and I think, often when we're dealing with anything new to kind of remembering with The Flavor Matrix I really love to encourage people to learn this, and use it as another tool in their arsenal, a way to make decisions about ingredients and think about the flavor pairing, so that you can add that to what you already have in what we call taste memory, which is basically, it's not like those memories you cherish from grandma's roast chicken, or whatever grandma used to make for you. But, you do remember the flavor of that. You also remember the flavor of a lot other things that you've tasted before. The more eat, the more you travel, you start to build taste memory. Chefs, it's some we kind of work in our careers. It's a bit of training your palate as well, it's kind of knowing flavors just inherently, and being able to kind of combine them in your minds to put two flavors together and sort of know what it's going to taste like without actually having to taste them together. But I think that really kind of elite level of taste memory to be able to do that, it's something that just professional chefs have. You kind of spend your whole life developing it. It's not easy.Suzy Chase: Talk about the difference between taste and flavor.James: Yeah. This is really one of the things we like to focus on in the book, and we talk a lot about. It's an important difference really. Because we tend to use those two words interchangeably, but in reality they come from different places. Taste comes from the tongue, flavor comes from your nose, it comes from all of your olfactory senses together, not just in your nose, but in the back of your throat, and sort of all around. Taste really only refers to six specific sensations, which is the tastes that we know, sour, sweet, salty, bitter, those are kind of the four classic ones, then two more that we've recently added with umami, and fat. These are things that are actually detected on the tongue, a chemical reaction happens on the tongue and relays that information to the brain about what's in the food that you're tasting. The tongue, I like to kind of describe the tongue's job as being a nutrient and toxin detector. It's just kind of the gatekeeper for your body. When your tongue recognizes sugar, it signals your brain, your brain is happy, it knows that things with sugar in them are things like ripe fruits, so they have good nutrition. Or it's just sugar, and it's something that your body can easily and quickly utilize for energy. Your body likes that, so it wants to take in more. With umami it means protein, it's amino acids coming in, and your body knows it needs that as building blocks. When it tastes something that's very sour, that's often a sign of under ripe, fruits or vegetables, they all tend to be sour. They don't offer much benefit to our body, so we tend to not like those quite as much. Things that are bitter are often a sign of toxin. When your tongue detects a toxin, it kind of makes you pause and be a little more cautious about what you're eating and wonder if you actually want to swallow it or not. This is really ... I think another great example is like when you're at the beach and you get hit in the face with a big wave, and you have that mouth full of sea water, you immediately start coughing and trying to spit it out because your tongue instantly recognizes that high concentration of salt is not good for your body and doesn't want to allow it in. That's really what our tongue is doing. Then, everything that we perceive as flavor is coming through our nose. It's coming through these chemical compounds that we've talked about that are in the food that actually create flavor. That part of the equation, when we talk about taste and flavor, is so much more complex and so much more nuanced. But often, when we describe food, it's just savory, or salty, or sweet. We don't get into talking about all these wonderful, rich, complex flavors that exist in food. Just like we do in wine, or coffee, or beer.Suzy Chase: Three factors help form a complete picture of flavor, you wrote in the book, taste, aroma and texture. But you said that aroma is far more influential. Talk a little bit about that.James: When we take a bite of food and there is so much ongoing research and kind of developing science around, there's a really understanding the physiology of taste and perception, and all of this very well, we're starting to understand it much better than we ever have before. We now know that about 80% of what we taste when we have a bite of food, that 80% is coming through the flavor receptors, through olfactory, through aroma. About 20% is relayed by the tongue. Things like texture, sound, actual sound can influence how we perceive food, lights. All of our senses really combine to change how we perceive a bite of food, but the heavy lifting is fairly being done by the nose and the tongue.Suzy Chase: I bought my very first durian in Chinatown a few weeks ago, and I can vouch for that in terms of aroma. It was so smelly.James: It is, it take a day or two to clear that out of the house.Suzy Chase: And out of your nose. You wrote this book with Brooke Parkhurst. Tell us about her.James: She is my wonderful wife. We live together here in the West Village in New York, but not for much longer, we're actually about to head down to Florida to open our first restaurant down on the Gulf Coast in Florida. That's super exciting. Brooke will be the Wine Director there, and I'll be the chef. It's a whole new adventure for our little family, but very exciting. Brooke has been, obviously, she has been my life partner for over 10 years now. But also my cooking partner and writing partner. She is a wonderful writer, and before we met she was finishing her first novel about a small town Southern girl moving to New York City, who stayed connected to home through the recipe she made. Our pairing of being chef and writer has been a really great one. This is our second book that we've written together. We're finding a way to take all of this complicated scientific jargon and put it in a form that really is accessible to anybody and everybody.Suzy Chase: I think one of the many special things about this cookbook is that it has 150 of the most commonly used ingredients that surprisingly work together. You're not out there searching for weird, oddball ingredients.James: Yeah. We really wanted to focus on ingredients that people are using every day, because I think, often, when you open a book, and you go through an ingredient list, and you see two ingredients ingredients "I don't even know what that is, I don't know where to find those." It can be a big turnoff. We've really wanted this to be a book that worked on different levels for different people. For professional chefs, and really big foodie home cooks, and just kind of the average, everyday cook, who has their dishes that they make all the time, and love, but was looking for a way to sort of change things up a little bit. Even if you just want to find one new ingredient to add to your favorite dish that you always make just to kind of change it up, or get a little different take on it, I find you can find that in The Flavor Matrix.Suzy Chase: Last week, I made your shrimp and lamb gumbo on page 89. The spices in this dish were so minimal, but the flavor was huge.James: Yeah. Thank you so much, I had a lot of fun following along on Instagram watching as you were making all these dishes, I think it looks like you did a fabulous job.Suzy Chase: Thank you, in my tiny West Village kitchen.James: I'm glad you were digging in there, and making these, they looked great. That to me was one of these just wonderfully, surprising combinations, was shrimp and lamb. Two things I would never think about putting together. But their flavors match up so well. Like you said, when you start with kind of flavor first in a recipe, you don't need as much to really bring it all together and to make it happen. That's a quick, simple recipe that I think really comes together so nicely because we start building on those common flavors from the beginning with the shrimp and the lamb.Suzy Chase: I also made the lemon curd with crunchy olives on page 181. I have no words for this. It was so good. Can you describe this heavenly dish?James: I think anyone who's eaten at any form of Mediterranean style restaurant, you've probably had a seafood dish that has lemon and olives in it, or a vegetable dish with lemon and olive. It's not a surprising combination, but as I looked at it, and saw just what a really, really strong combination it was, I thought [inaudible 00:19:49] thinking about "Why don't we use that more? What are other ways we can use that fantastic combination that are a little more interesting or a bit more surprising?" Naturally, I was like "Let's make a dessert out of them." That's exactly what we did. Starting with kind of ... it starts like a classic lemon curd with just egg yolks and sugar, and lemon juice, and lemon zest to really get the most intense flavor. But then, once the curd is cooked and is nice and thick on the stove, and it has just kind of that creamy, beautiful, smooth consistency, take it out and start whipping it. As it cools, emulsifying olive oil into it, instead of the classic butter. That olive oil gives it a smooth, beautiful shine and really gorgeous consistency and such a unique flavor. I finish it with a little bit of butter as well, just because it kind of needs it for the structure, it's too runny if it's made with just olive oil. Just to kind of give it a little bit of structure, we add that butter. But the flavor and shine that that olive oil gives to lemon curd is just so, so fantastic. Then, we top it off with these little dehydrated olives that we just coat with a little bit of honey and bake in a low oven until they're crunchy, and they're salty, and sweet. Just the perfect match to that lemon curd.Suzy Chase: I also made the crab, mango, dill and poblano salad on page 241. That was like perfect for summer. I wanted to talk to you about the cucumber in this recipe. I felt like the chopped poblano was enough crunch. What did the cucumber bring to this dish?James: The chopped poblano does give some nice crunch and a bit of spice. The cucumber has these really great kind of ... it's almost sort of a bridge in those ingredients, because the two most prominent aromas in cucumber are just green grassy and melon. They're kind of the link between the pepper and the herbs, which peppers tend to have whatever type of pepper we're talking about, in this case the poblano, tend to have a little bit of that kind of melon and fruity flavor. The dill, which I think is such a great herb that's just not nearly used enough, but [inaudible 00:22:31] match it back to the mango. That cucumber is sort of there as that bridge. I think it adds just another great layer of crunch to the dish.Suzy Chase: In your opinion, what was the most surprising flavor combination that you came across for this book?James: I think I tipped it earlier with the strawberry and mushrooms.Suzy Chase: Mine was the blueberry and horseradish jam.James: That is another great. The blueberry and horseradish really is a lot of fun. You, I think, would love this. We ran an event down in Florida that we did down in Ocala, Florida. We had a bunch of local chefs and they got together and they all had different pairings from The Flavor Matrix. We had this great, big kind of local chefs gala where they all made different dishes of their own design from pairings out of The Flavor Matrix. We had a mixologist there who made a blueberry and horseradish cocktail. Really, rally great, unique, just wonderful flavor. But yeah, blueberry and horseradish jam is such a great condiment. One of different ways you can use that ... blueberries on their own have just these little tiny hints of kind of pine, and almost, like [inaudible 00:24:01] like rosemary. These little hints of pine in them. That's a really prominent aroma in horseradish as well. It's one of those things that, again, you wouldn't necessarily perceive on your own, but when you start to see the flavors in those ingredients, and then you start to make those connections, it all makes sense, and kind of shows you the way. That's really with a lot of the recipes in The Flavor Matrix, they're more like the blueberry and horseradish jam. They're meant to be something wonderful that you can make and use in a bunch of different ways. That can be a great condiment on a cheese plate or charcuterie board. It's wonderful to spread on sandwiches, and there's lots of different ways you can use it.Suzy Chase: I saw The Flavor Matrix book cover on a Times Square billboard. Is this the first ever cookbook that's been featured in Times Square?James: Oh, boy. I don't know, I should hope so.Suzy Chase: I've never seen a cookbook in Times Square.James: That was very exciting. Once again, my wonderful wife knows all of the right people who were able to make that happen, but yes, you saw The Flavor Matrix up in the big, bright lights of Times Square. It was really a thrilling moment.Suzy Chase: Where can we find you on the web and social media?James: Brooke and I write together at The Couple's Kitchen, so thecoupleskitchen.com. Also The Couple's Kitchen on Instagram. On Twitter and Instagram you can also find me under James Briscione, just my name. Basically, if you just throw my name into Google Search, you'll probably find out more than you ever wanted to know about me.Suzy Chase: What a wonderful conversation. Thanks, James, for coming on Cookery By The Book Podcast.James: Thank you for having me, Suzy, it's been a lot of fun.Suzy Chase: Follow me on Instagram @CookeryByTheBook. Twitter is @IamSuzyChase. Download your Kitchen Mixtapes music to cook by on Spotify at Cookery By The Book. As always, subscribe in Apple Podcasts.

Our fourth episode of Totally Made Up Tales, with more tales of wonder and mystery. Spread the word! Tell a friend!   Music: Creepy – Bensound.com.   Andrew: Here are some totally made up tales. Brought to you by the magic of the internet.   James: One   Andrew: Day   James: Elise   Andrew: Held   James: Her   Andrew: Boyfriend   James: Tightly   Andrew: And   James: Whispered   Andrew: That   James: She   Andrew: Was   James: Pregnant.   Andrew: He   James: Was   Andrew: Surprised   James: But   Andrew: Delighted.   James: Together   Andrew: They   James: Planned   Andrew: For   James: A   Andrew: Home   James: That   Andrew: Would   James: Welcome   Andrew: A   James: New   Andrew: Life.   James: Painting   Andrew: The   James: Nursery   Andrew: In   James: Bright   Andrew: Green   James: With   Andrew: Some   James: Dinosaurs   Andrew: On   James: The   Andrew: Walls.   James: Building   Andrew: A   James: Crib   Andrew: Out   James: Of   Andrew: Ikea   James: And   Andrew: Reading   James: To   Andrew: Each   James: Other   Andrew: The   James: Day   Andrew: Of   James: Delivery   Andrew: Arrived   James: And   Andrew: They   James: Took   Andrew: Elise   James: To   Andrew: The   James: Hospital,   Andrew: Where   James: She   Andrew: Gave   James: Birth   Andrew: To   James: A   Andrew: Healthy   James: Baby   Andrew: Dinosaur   James: The   Andrew: End.   James: This is the story of the Gamekeeper's Family.   Once upon a time, not so very long ago, there lived a couple in a wood.   Andrew: The husband was a gamekeeper at the local estate.   James: His wife was a housekeeper for the same.   Andrew: They had lived in their little cottage very happily for the last fifteen years.   James: But ... they longed for a child.   Andrew: They had tried many things, been to doctors, healers and priests but without success.   James: They had traveled the world looking for witches that might be able to cure their barrenness, but all in vain.   Andrew: After many years of searching and hoping, they had resigned themselves to their situation and were content to mind the children of their neighbours and fellow workers.   James: But one day, as the gamekeeper walked home through the forest paths, he came across a basket.   Andrew: Attached to the basket was a note, read, “please take care of me” and inside wrapped up in blankets there was a tiny baby.   James: He rushed home to his wife to show her what he had found.   Andrew: They spent a long time discussing whether or not it would be right for them to keep this child. Who had left it there and why?   James: Eventually, they chose to consult the local vicar who assured them that with all of their experience helping to look after their neighbours' children and given that almost everyone else in the village already had children of their own, the right thing would be for them to keep it and raise it as their own.   Andrew: This they did, with great success and a fine healthy young man was the product of their labours.   James: They had named him Benjamin, after the wife's father and as Benjamin grew in stature, he also grew in the love given to him, not only by them but by others in the village. For everyone enjoyed his outgoing and pleasant company.   Andrew: As the years passed the time came for him to take over his father's job as gamekeeper on the estate and this he did.   James: He had spent his childhood growing up amongst the forest and knew how to look for the different types of woodland animal and also how to protect them. How best to defend them from poachers and so forth. And so, continuing the charm of his childhood as he started his job, he proved to be more than adept as a gamekeeper and was rapidly promoted until he became head gamekeeper.   Andrew: After many years, his parents passed away in a peaceful old age and he moved back to the cottage where he had grown up.   James: By this time, he was himself, married, although as with his parents, he and his wife Amelia, had not been able to have a child.   Andrew: One day, while out walking in the estate, completing his rounds and jobs, Benjamin too came across a basket with a note attached.   James: The note, as the note on his own basket, said “please take care of me” and inside was a tiny child that he took home to Amelia and which as with his parents before him, they decided it was right to adopt.   Andrew: Now, the listener will not know that Benjamin's parents had not chosen to share with him the story of how they had found him in a cradle in the woods. And so, it did not occur to him that there was anything unusual about this coincidence.   James: As Benjamin and Amelia's daughter, Susanna, grew, she also, much like Benjamin was much loved around the village and when it came time for her to start working, she took over Amelia's job as housekeeper, as Amelia had taken over the job of Benjamin's mother before her.   Andrew: And so it was that this story played out from generation to generation. Susanna had a son named Robert. Robert had a daughter named Barbara. Barbara had a son named Tom.   James: And always, down through the generations, the same jobs were passed from father to daughter, from daughter to son, across the generations, gamekeeper and housekeeper both.   Andrew: But why? Why was it that these popular, lovable, outgoing people were never able to have children of their own? And where was it that the mysterious foundlings were coming from?   James: For that, dear listener, we must go back to the first gamekeeper and housekeeper, Benjamin's parents, and see their story from another angle.   Andrew: Once upon a time there was a magical forest where there dwelled many sprites and pixies.   James: Chief among them was a fairy who had lived for many hundreds of years, spending her time looking after the non-magical creatures of the kingdom.   Andrew: Now, many fairies have an ambiguous and complicated relationship with human beings, seeing them somewhat like a tree sees a fungus growing on its bark.   James: At times, the fairy would help humans through stumbling difficulties in their lives, but at other times she would punish them for what she saw as a transgression against the magical forest.   Andrew: She was, to our eyes, capricious in her whims. Sometimes kind, sometimes cruel.   James: One day, the gamekeeper, while walking home through the forest spied a rogue pheasant which had somehow escaped from, as he thought, the forest that he managed.   Andrew: What appeared to be a pheasant to his eyes, was in fact the fairy, wandering through her domain.   James: He carefully set a trap and as she did not consider him a threat, she walked right into it and was quickly bound and trussed with him carrying her home towards the pot.   Andrew: He was not by nature a sentimental person, having spent his life working with the wild animals of the forest. But, there was something about the way this bird fixed him with a seemingly knowing stare as he set it down on the kitchen table that made him think twice about instantly wringing its neck.   James: In the moment that he hesitated, the fairy, as fairies sometimes do, cast a spell, not only for her to be released and free but also so that he would forget having ever encountered her. And, as fairies are also sometimes wont to do, she cursed him at that moment, annoyed and upset that she had ignominiously been bound and walked over the forest. She cursed him that he should never have a child to love him.   Andrew: Sometime later, the fairy observed his wife walking through the forest and weeping and lamenting her lack of children.   James: Unaware that this woman was in any way related to the gamekeeper she had previously cursed, she cast a beneficial spell over the housekeeper that she would have a child that she so clearly desired.   Andrew: The child of course, was easy to provide for fairy folk often have children which they need to be raised in the human world.   James: And no one ever questioned from Benjamin through Susanna, through Robert, through Barbara, through Tom, why, when their feet touched the ground in the forest, flowers grew in their footsteps.   Andrew: And from generation to generation, they continued to live, in the small charming cottage in the middle of the wonderful magical wood.   James: Sally   Andrew: Held   James: Her   Andrew: Handbag   James: Defensively   Andrew: When   James: The   Andrew: Mugger   James: Threatened   Andrew: Her   James: With   Andrew: A   James: Knife.   Andrew: She   James: Balanced   Andrew: On   James: The   Andrew: Balls   James: Of   Andrew: Her   James: Feet   Andrew: And   James: Lashed   Andrew: Out   James: With   Andrew: Her   James: Handbag   Andrew: Knocking   James: Him   Andrew: Over   James: And   Andrew: Giving   James: Her   Andrew: The   James: Chance   Andrew: To   James: Escape.   Andrew: She   James: Reported   Andrew: The   James: Incident   Andrew: To   James: The   Andrew: Police   James: Who   Andrew: Promptly   James: Ignored   Andrew: Her   James: And   Andrew: Carried   James: On   Andrew: Filling   James: In   Andrew: Paperwork.   James: The   Andrew: End.   James: Our next story is Jeremy's Place.   One   Andrew: Day   James: Jeremy   Andrew: Was   James: Walking   Andrew: Along   James: The   Andrew: High   James: Street   Andrew: When   James: He   Andrew: Noticed   James: That   Andrew: The   James: Shops   Andrew: Were   James: All   Andrew: Closed.   James: In   Andrew: Normal   James: Times   Andrew: They   James: Would   Andrew: Be   James: Open   Andrew: On   James: Fridays   Andrew: But   James: Today   Andrew: They   James: Were   Andrew: Not   James: “Hmmm?”   Andrew: He   James: Thought   Andrew: “Is   James: There   Andrew: A   James: Special   Andrew: Occasion?   James: Perhaps   Andrew: It's   James: Remembrance   Andrew: Day?   James: But   Andrew: That   James: Is   Andrew: Always   James: On   Andrew: A   James: Sunday.”   Andrew: So   James: He   Andrew: Knocked   James: On   Andrew: The   James: Door   Andrew: Of   James: The   Andrew: Post   James: Office   Andrew: And   James: Waited   Andrew: For   James: Someone   Andrew: To   James: Open   Andrew: It.   James: Waited   Andrew: And   James: Waited   Andrew: Then   James: Waited   Andrew: Some   James: More.   Andrew: He   James: Gave   Andrew: The   James: Putative   Andrew: Post-mistress   James: Half   Andrew: An   James: Hour   Andrew: And   James: She   Andrew: Didn't   James: Appear.   Andrew: So   James: He   Andrew: Pushed   James: And   Andrew: The   James: Door   Andrew: Opened.   James: “Funny,”   Andrew: He   James: Thought   Andrew: And   James: Stepped   Andrew: Inside.   James: Inside   Andrew: There   James: Was   Andrew: No   James: Light.   Andrew: In   James: The   Andrew: Space   James: Reserved   Andrew: For   James: Packages,   Andrew: There   James: Was   Andrew: A   James: Small   Andrew: Dog.   James: “Strange,”   Andrew: He   James: Thought,   Andrew: And   James: Approached.   Andrew: The   James: Dog   Andrew: Looked   James: At   Andrew: Him   James: And   Andrew: Opened   James: His   Andrew: Mouth.   James: “Why   Andrew: Are   James: You   Andrew: Here?”   James: Asked   Andrew: The   James: Dog   Andrew: “I   James: Want   Andrew: To   James: Know   Andrew: What's   James: Going   Andrew: On?”   James: Said   Andrew: Jeremy.   James: “This   Andrew: Is   James: Not   Andrew: A   James: Place   Andrew: For   James: You.”   Andrew: Said   James: The   Andrew: Dog   James: “Where   Andrew: Am   James: I?”   Andrew: “You   James: Are   Andrew: In   James: The   Andrew: Seventh   James: Kingdom.”   Andrew: Jeremy   James: Backed   Andrew: Away   James: From   Andrew: The   James: Dog   Andrew: And   James: Fled.   Andrew: Once   James: Outside   Andrew: He   James: Started   Andrew: To   James: Calm   Andrew: Down   James: Again.   Andrew: He   James: Convinced   Andrew: Himself   James: That   Andrew: Nothing   James: Strange   Andrew: Had   James: Happened   Andrew: To   James: Him   Andrew: And   James: Proceeded   Andrew: To   James: Walk   Andrew: Down   James: The   Andrew: High   James: Street   Andrew: And   James: Knocked   Andrew: On   James: The   Andrew: Door   James: Of   Andrew: The   James: Butchers.   Andrew: Again   James: There   Andrew: Was   James: No   Andrew: Reply   James: So   Andrew: He   James: Pushed   Andrew: The   James: Door   Andrew: Open   James: And   Andrew: Stepped   James: Inside.   Andrew: Within,   James: There   Andrew: Was   James: No   Andrew: Light.   James: In   Andrew: The   James: Area   Andrew: Where   James: Meat   Andrew: Would   James: Be   Andrew: Chilled   James: There   Andrew: Was   James: Another   Andrew: Dog.   James: “What   Andrew: Are   James: You   Andrew: Doing   James: Here?”   Andrew: Said   James: The   Andrew: Dog.   James: “I'm   Andrew: Just…”   James: “No!”   Andrew: Said   James: The   Andrew: Dog.   James: “This   Andrew: Is   James: Not   Andrew: A   James: Place   Andrew: For   James: You!”   Andrew: Jeremy   James: Looked   Andrew: Confused.   James: “Where   Andrew: Am   James: I?”   Andrew: “Go!   James: This   Andrew: Is   James: The   Andrew: Kingdom.   James: You   Andrew: Must   James: Leave.”   Andrew: Jeremy   James: Backed   Andrew: Away   James: From   Andrew: The   James: Dog   Andrew: Into   James: The   Andrew: Doorway,   James: And   Andrew: Stepped   James: Back   Andrew: Onto   James: The   Andrew: High   James: Street.   Andrew: Now   James: He   Andrew: Was   James: Having   Andrew: Second   James: Thoughts   Andrew: About   James: The   Andrew: Shopping   James: Trip   Andrew: That   James: He   Andrew: Had   James: Planned   Andrew: And   James: Walked   Andrew: Back   James: Towards   Andrew: Home.   James: Passing   Andrew: The   James: Police   Andrew: Station,   James: He   Andrew: Went   James: To   Andrew: The   James: Door   Andrew: And   James: Knocked.   Andrew: The   James: Door   Andrew: Was   James: Not   Andrew: Locked,   James: And   Andrew: So   James: He   Andrew: Went   James: Inside.   Andrew: Within,   James: There   Andrew: Was   James: No   Andrew: Light.   James: In   Andrew: The   James: Cells   Andrew: Where   James: Prisoners   Andrew: Usually   James: Resided,   Andrew: There   James: Was   Andrew: A   James: Third   Andrew: Dog.   James: “Seriously!”   Andrew: Said   James: The   Andrew: Dog.   James: “What   Andrew: Are   James: You   Andrew: Doing   James: Here?”   Andrew: Jeremy   James: Panicked   Andrew: And   James: Ran   Andrew: At   James: The   Andrew: Dog.   James: “Give   Andrew: Me   James: Back   Andrew: My   James: Place!”   Andrew: He   James: Exclaimed.   Andrew: The   James: Dog   Andrew: Jumped   James: Sideways   Andrew: And   James: Avoided   Andrew: Jeremy's   James: Grasping,   Andrew: And   James: Replied,   Andrew: “This   James: Is   Andrew: Your   James: Place   Andrew: Here.”   James: Slamming   Andrew: The   James: Cell   Andrew: Door   James: Shut,   Andrew: Jeremy   James: Collapsed   Andrew: Into   James: The   Andrew: Corner   James: And   Andrew: Slept.   James: The   Andrew: Next   James: Day   Andrew: He   James: Awoke   Andrew: In   James: The   Andrew: Cell   James: To   Andrew: Discover   James: Three   Andrew: Policemen   James: Looking   Andrew: At   James: Him   Andrew: In   James: Confusion.   Andrew: “What's   James: All   Andrew: This   James: Then?”   Andrew: They   James: Said   Andrew: In   James: Unison.   Andrew: Jeremy   James: Stumbled   Andrew: Out   James: Into   Andrew: The   James: Open   Andrew: Air   James: And   Andrew: Saw   James: That   Andrew: Things   James: Were   Andrew: Back   James: To   Andrew: Normal.   James: The   Andrew: Post   James: Office   Andrew: Was   James: Open,   Andrew: The   James: Butchers   Andrew: Had   James: Customers,   Andrew: The   James: High   Andrew: Street   James: Was   Andrew: Bustling.   James: “What   Andrew: Happened   James: Yesterday?”   Andrew: He   James: Thought   Andrew: As   James: He   Andrew: Opened   James: His   Andrew: Front   James: Door.   Andrew: “I   James: Swore   Andrew: I…”   James: And   Andrew: In   James: Front   Andrew: Of   James: Him   Andrew: Were   James: Three   Andrew: Dogs.   James: The   Andrew: End.       James: Peter   Andrew: Liked   James: Jam   Andrew: And   James: Toast.   Andrew: He   James: Regularly   Andrew: Ate   James: Ten   Andrew: Slices   James: Of   Andrew: Them   James: For   Andrew: Breakfast.   James: His   Andrew: Constitution   James: Was   Andrew: As   James: Solid   Andrew: As   James: A   Andrew: House.   James: One   Andrew: Day   James: He   Andrew: Ran   James: Out   Andrew: Of   James: Jam   Andrew: And   James: Had   Andrew: To   James: Use   Andrew: Marmite   James: Instead.   Andrew: This   James: Gummed   Andrew: His   James: Works   Andrew: Up   James: And   Andrew: He   James: Slowly   Andrew: Died.   James: The   Andrew: End.   I've been Andrew, and I'm here with James. These stories were recorded without advanced planning and then lightly edited for the discerning listener. Join us next time for more totally made-up tales ...    

Nehemiah "Skip" James was born on Woodbine Plantation outside Bentonia, Mississippi on the ninth of June, 1902. Raised on the plantation Skip was interested in music early and had learned guitar by age 8. After learning piano in high school he dropped out to hobo around and began earning a living from music around 1918. He worked parties, roadhouses, jukes, and barrelhouses in the South and Midwest, notably Memphis into the 1920's. He attended divinity school and became active in ministry work from the mid-twenties. He was ordained a Baptist minister in 1932 supporting himself preaching and playing churches and concerts in the forties. James was ordained a Methodist minister in 1946 and worked outside music preaching until 1964 when he started working the folk festival and college circuit riding the blues revival wave. An influence to Robert Johnson, Skip James recorded 17 selections for Paramount in 1931. His surviving works of this time demonstrate a masterful and unique style on both guitar and piano. Skip's haunting delivery was created by his falsetto singing over a rythymic and erratic instrumental accompaniment. The Depression suppressed his record sales and left him in obscurity until rediscovered in 1964. Illness curtailed Skip James' performing career in 1968 and he died of cancer on October 3, 1969.