Podcast appearances and mentions of james okay

A Note from James:"Okay, two things. One is Tim Collins tells me all about getting pitched the ultimate AI porn business and how AI is going to change the porn industry. From both a business perspective and an AI perspective, I do think it's interesting how every industry is basically going to change. Because then, when we started with this...Tim, who I've worked with for a long time-like 20 years or so-recently I found out he is a writer of horror novels and he's writing a horror graphic novel, but using MidJourney for the graphics part. Now, I've always been fascinated by graphic novels, but I figured I couldn't ever do one because I can't draw or paint or anything. But now, you can use AI to make your own graphic novel.So, Tim describes that. Then we talk about the AI porn industry. That's this episode. Even more fascinating is the next episode, which is more like a mini-episode. I'll describe that one briefly, but we explore the ultimate business model. Don't steal it, or you can steal it if you want, but it's fascinating.So, first, stay tuned for this one, about how to use AI, how AI is changing every industry, particularly the porn industry, and how you can make your own graphic novel." Episode Description:This episode discusses the transformative potential of artificial intelligence (AI) across various industries, with a focus on porn and graphic novels. Tim Collins shares insights on an AI-driven business model aimed at revolutionizing the porn industry, highlighting the technology's ability to generate realistic models and interactive experiences. Furthermore, Collins, a writer of horror novels and an emerging horror graphic novelist, elaborates on his use of the AI tool Midjourney to create the artwork for his graphic novel, leveraging AI to maintain consistency in character designs and scenes. The conversation navigates the technicalities of using AI for creative processes, the societal implications of AI in adult entertainment, and personal anecdotes, concluding with reflections on the broader impact of AI on creativity and commerce. Episode Summary:00:00 Introduction to AI's Impact on Industries00:04 Exploring AI in the Porn Industry00:29 The Creative Process of Making a Graphic Novel with AI01:28 Deep Dive into AI-Generated Graphic Novels05:00 Innovations and Challenges in AI for Horror Content05:52 The Future of AI in Adult Entertainment08:05 Personal Reflections and Ethical Considerations08:58 Closing Thoughts and Future Episodes ------------What do YOU think of the show? Head to JamesAltucherShow.com/listeners and fill out a short survey that will help us better tailor the podcast to our audience!Are you interested in getting direct answers from James about your question on a podcast? Go to JamesAltucherShow.com/AskAltucher and send in your questions to be answered on the air!------------Visit Notepd.com to read our idea lists & sign up to create your own!My new book, Skip the Line, is out! Make sure you get a copy wherever books are sold!Join the You Should Run for President 2.0 Facebook Group, where we discuss why you should run for President.I write about all my podcasts! Check out the full post and learn what I learned at jamesaltuchershow.com------------Thank you so much for listening! If you like this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe to "The James Altucher Show" wherever you get your podcasts: Apple PodcastsiHeart RadioSpotifyFollow me on social media:YouTubeTwitterFacebookLinkedIn

A Note from James:"Okay, two things. One is Tim Collins tells me all about getting pitched the ultimate AI porn business and how AI is going to change the porn industry. From both a business perspective and an AI perspective, I do think it's interesting how every industry is basically going to change. Because then, when we started with this...Tim, who I've worked with for a long time—like 20 years or so—recently I found out he is a writer of horror novels and he's writing a horror graphic novel, but using MidJourney for the graphics part. Now, I've always been fascinated by graphic novels, but I figured I couldn't ever do one because I can't draw or paint or anything. But now, you can use AI to make your own graphic novel.So, Tim describes that. Then we talk about the AI porn industry. That's this episode. Even more fascinating is the next episode, which is more like a mini-episode. I'll describe that one briefly, but we explore the ultimate business model. Don't steal it, or you can steal it if you want, but it's fascinating.So, first, stay tuned for this one, about how to use AI, how AI is changing every industry, particularly the porn industry, and how you can make your own graphic novel." Episode Description:This episode discusses the transformative potential of artificial intelligence (AI) across various industries, with a focus on porn and graphic novels. Tim Collins shares insights on an AI-driven business model aimed at revolutionizing the porn industry, highlighting the technology's ability to generate realistic models and interactive experiences. Furthermore, Collins, a writer of horror novels and an emerging horror graphic novelist, elaborates on his use of the AI tool Midjourney to create the artwork for his graphic novel, leveraging AI to maintain consistency in character designs and scenes. The conversation navigates the technicalities of using AI for creative processes, the societal implications of AI in adult entertainment, and personal anecdotes, concluding with reflections on the broader impact of AI on creativity and commerce. Episode Summary:00:00 Introduction to AI's Impact on Industries00:04 Exploring AI in the Porn Industry00:29 The Creative Process of Making a Graphic Novel with AI01:28 Deep Dive into AI-Generated Graphic Novels05:00 Innovations and Challenges in AI for Horror Content05:52 The Future of AI in Adult Entertainment08:05 Personal Reflections and Ethical Considerations08:58 Closing Thoughts and Future Episodes ------------What do YOU think of the show? Head to JamesAltucherShow.com/listeners and fill out a short survey that will help us better tailor the podcast to our audience!Are you interested in getting direct answers from James about your question on a podcast? Go to JamesAltucherShow.com/AskAltucher and send in your questions to be answered on the air!------------Visit Notepd.com to read our idea lists & sign up to create your own!My new book, Skip the Line, is out! Make sure you get a copy wherever books are sold!Join the You Should Run for President 2.0 Facebook Group, where we discuss why you should run for President.I write about all my podcasts! Check out the full post and learn what I learned at jamesaltuchershow.com------------Thank you so much for listening! If you like this episode, please rate, review, and subscribe to “The James Altucher Show” wherever you get your podcasts: Apple PodcastsiHeart RadioSpotifyFollow me on social media:YouTubeTwitterFacebookLinkedIn

James: Hi, audience. This is James Kandasamy. You're listening to Achieve Wealth Podcast through Value at Real Estate Investing. Today, we have an awesome guest. His name is Nikolaï Ray. He's who's the founder and CEO of MREX, which is an acronym for Multifamily Real Estate Exchange; is considered by many of his peers in North America as the leading expert in apartment investing with over $1 billion analysis, underwriting and transactions. He's also a pioneer in mid-cap, multifamily financial engineering, which is, you know, he's regarded as the teacher, advisor and also the keynote speaker. He's also a real estate tech innovator to his current work on the multifamily real estate big data, artificial intelligence and property tokenization using blockchain technology. Hey, Nikolaï, welcome to the show.   Nikolaï: Hi, James. Thanks for having me.   James: Okay, so do you want to mention anything that I missed out about your credibility?   Nikolaï: No, that sounded like a mouthful.   James: It's going to be ready technology-centric discussion today, right?   Nikolaï: Yeah, the full story is that it should probably a lot longer, but I mean, that could be for, that could be for a whole other episode of the origin story of how, how'd you get to, you know, how you get to where we get in life, and professionally and personally, but yeah, that's, that's the gist of it, you know, everything that's underwriting and, you know, acquisitions, dispositions, refinancing, obviously, portfolio management, whether it be the small market, small cap market, you know, between 500 units, all the way up to the mid-market, you know, market cycles, and obviously, have a very strong penchant for data and for technology.   So, so that's, that's pretty much what I've done over the last, I guess, over the last seven or eight years, is focused on, you know, for the most part, I focused mostly on acquisitions. So I was in charge of an investment banking firm, we worked, you know, on both sides of the transaction advisory side of things, for investors and we also work with a lot of ultra high net worth investors, that's kind of where I built my speciality. Eventually, ultra high net worth investors and private equity firms and family offices, you know, by doing all that I kept on, kept on getting annoyed with the fact that the multifamily market is so fragmented, and the data is so packed, I just kept on thinking to myself, you know, this, this market this, which is an important market, I mean, the apartment building investment market is a almost a $10 trillion market worldwide.   It's a, quite, house is a primary need of human beings, which is to have somewhere to live. And yet, you know, we're kind of in the dark ages as multifamily investors, because number one, we don't have access to any centralized marketplace. If you compare us to a stock investor who can go on the NASDAQ and trade every type of tech stock or stock market investing world, the New York Stock Exchange, and we don't have access to any data, the data is very raw, it's very, it's kind of, you know, what I call legacy data, as you look at like Costar and, and all these various data providers who provide this very raw and inert data, without any actual, you know, context around the data, and without any helps with regards to making decisions business intelligence wise, as a multifamily real estate investor. So that's kind of how that's how my career has gone so far. That's why I went from transactions and more towards data technologies because I felt like there was so much work to be done to help investors just you know, be better investors for once.   James: Okay, so let me understand MREX because I think it's important since you have a lot of passion we need right now. Right? So --   Nikolaï: Yeah.   James: Multifamily Real Estate Exchange, if I understand it correctly, so what you're saying is right now, the data is so fragmented, and a lot of times when, you know, people like me underwrite deals, we have to do so much work, I did too. I mean, I really learn to write [inaudible 04:05] for four hours because I did all the property management financial, that there are so much of mistakes in the property management financials, you have to do T-3, T-12, you had to do expense ratio, you have to do market comps, and all that. So what you're saying is, you are going to summarize all that, and make it so easy to look at so that it can be treated as a commodity, commodity, is that right?   Nikolaï: Not necessarily. So, so the idea is taking you as an example or any of your listeners, right now, who are multifamily real estate investors actually acquiring properties, let's say you have the capital ready, or your investors have the capital ready to allocate to an acquisition, you know, just actually finding that first property to buy or the next property to buy is a very time intensive and energy intensive job, right. You have to go on, you have to go on all the different MLS, you have to go on the loop that's of this world, the [inaudible 00:05:00] and the [inaudible :00:05:01] and, you know, just --   James: [inaudible00:05:02]   Nikolaï: Right, and then you have all the brokers, and then you have all the broker websites, then you have all the pocket listings and you have not even really touched the majority of the market, you're actually still missing probably, you know, anywhere between 25% and 50%, of actual transactional inventory, depending which metro area you're in. So it's a lot of work, even just looking at the stuff that's on websites. That's a lot of work because you have to go on between five and fifteen websites, each website has a different user interface, this different user experience, and actually shows different information. On one site, maybe on [inaudible 00:05:42] you might have a cap rate, maybe on the MLS, you won't have cap rate, you'll just have gross revenue.   So then you have to figure out your own cap rate off of that. It's a lot of work, you know, and for me, I just never thought it made sense, to not be able to say, hey, I want to buy a multifamily property, whether it be a five unit, whether it be a 50 unit or 500 units, I want to go on to one marketplace, we're all properties are centralized in a unified, and normalized manner. Because that's the second point of it, is you have to be able to normalize expenses, if you want to start comparing apples with apples, and oranges with oranges. So that's the second phase. So what we're doing with MREX is we're building a unified, standardized marketplace for multifamily investors, where they will be able to see every single property that exists, that is for sale, despite on the way it's being sold or listed or marketed. We're going to be working with brokers obviously, the goal is not to get rid of brokers or anything like that, that's not, that's not what our goal is. Our goal is to help brokers, help investors just make the whole transaction process much quicker and more time efficient. And that way, you know, we're making the market more, you know, just a more efficient market.   James: Okay, okay. Got it. Got it. So you are basically streaming lining the whole selling and buying process, I guess, just to make --?   Nikolaï: Absolutely. Absolutely.   James: Okay, got it.   Nikolaï: And the analysis process as you said too, right, because it's one, it's one thing finding the properties and having them all in one marketplace. Okay, let's say, let's say you have the NASDAQ, let's say I wanted Lesson TechStars rather than multifamily properties. I go the NASDAQ and I can see every single company, I could have access to inventory, now that's the first step. Now the second step is, once you have access to inventory, and the information provided on all that inventory is normalized and standardize, well, I still have to be able to start comparing and start, you know, building my own models to say, well, if I'm a cash flow investor, which stocks are generating the most cash flow relative to the other, to the rest of the inventory. So that's where you know, context and alternative data comes into play with our platform, is that we want to be able to, to offer data and tools to you as a multifamily investor, to help you streamline your underwriting of the inventory that you've seen. So that's really the two things we're focused on at the moment.   James: Okay, got it. Got it. So interesting. So that'll be, that'll make a lot of, I mean, for investors or for buyers, they would be able to see what kind of deals that they want to buy,--   Nikolaï: Right.   James: Not just what they want to get the yield out of --   Nikolaï: Exactly and instead of going on fifteen websites, well, they've only one website, instead of having to, you know, start normalizing expense ratios and sifting through, through T-12 and T-3, and doing all that, it already kind of be all chewed up and kind of built up already. So you can actually focus, focus on analyzing, focus on comparing and establish, okay, I want to buy this property using this strategy. And why would I do that versus the other property that I see over there? That's ultimately what's the most important thing.   James: Okay, okay. So could it then be a good idea to match this with a crowdfunding platform, because during the crowdfunding, they can choose what deal they want, right?   Nikolaï: Right. So crowdfunding is an interesting thing. The problem is crowdfunding, obviously, crowdfunding, crowdfunding has tried to kind of attack two things. Number one is liquidity, right? Because, as a multifamily investor, the more properties that you acquire, you increase your net value, right, you're a richer person. But the problem with that, is that you have to leave equity in every single deal, right. The banks won't finance you 100%. So you always have to leave equity. So as you get richer and richer, value wise, you are actually cash poor, because you're leaving so much equity in each property that you acquire. And there's always a part of the equity that has to stay in those properties. But the problem, the second problem is that as you get, as you become a bigger investor, and you acquire more properties, and you're more well known in the market, well, you get access to better deals, but now you have less access to more money, even though you're richer. That's kind of the liquidity conundrum of multifamily investors. So that's why crowdfunding is interesting, because it gives kind of, you know, after the JOBS Act, it helps multifamily investors, particularly syndicators, to go and raise capital from, you know, from investors either through the regulation CF, you know, and obviously, regulation D506C was quite an upgrade also to be able to start to, to market capital raises. But what we're doing is we're actually building a second platform that is shadowing the Emirates platform. And what that platform will be doing is, we're actually going to create a sort of stock market and take the crowdfunding thing a bit further, because crowdfunding, as I said, tries to attack the liquidity conundrum. But the problem is, is that when you invest in a crowdfunding deal, you as an LP, are stuck in that deal for the lifetime of the deal. So if it's a five, it's a three to five year exit, well, your money stuck in that, so you, you as a passive investor, or as an LP, do not have liquidity. That's, that's one problem. And obviously, crowdfunding also helps with accessibility, right. So obviously, regulation D506C is only for accredited investors, which doesn't really help accessibility that much. Regulation CF has helped that because now then, that kind of lowers the barrier to entry for everyday retail investors who don't have that much money, but it's still a fairly limited regulation. At the moment, I know, they're trying to pass a couple of bills to increase the opportunity for regulation CF investors. So what we're doing is we're building a second platform, that's going to be basically a stock market, in its own sense, where, you know, through a broker-dealer partner that we hope to get. And then also through eventually a, an ATS license with the SEC, we would like to be able to take it a step further, and allow a multifamily investor to pretty much offer his property through one the various regulations on that marketplace. That way people could invest as passive investors, as LPs, either through Reg D, Reg CF, or eventually maybe even Reg A plus, but then they would also be able to acquire or access a secondary trading market so that they're not stuck in an illiquid period of three to five years. They would actually eventually be able to re trade part of their shares or all of their shares, kind of like you would at the stock market.   James: Wow. So it looks like you are trying to really disrupt the industry.   Nikolaï: Yeah, definitely. [inaudible 00:12:36]. You know, multifamily real estate looks like the stock market before the arrival of NASDAQ. Right? It's like before the internet, even though we have internet and multifamily real estate, it's as if people are still trading kind of like stock market investors were trading on floors, you know, with papers and screaming and doing all that stuff. It, you know, it doesn't make sense.   James: Yeah, yeah. It's so private nowadays, right? I mean, everybody has priority, we do not know how, even multi families performing under a different private LLC.   Nikolaï: Exactly.   James: There's a lot of good news out there. But there's also bad news, but nobody talks about it. right. So I think,--   Nikolaï: Oh, right. And the data, the data out there, like look at any of the data from, you know, even from the really big organization like NCREIF so the National Council of Real Estate Investment Trusts, NCREIT sorry. Even their data, when they know these indexes based on multifamily markets is based on a very low volume of the actual number of transactions. So when say a, a company, various data company says, well, the cap rate right now of say Atlanta is 5%, for example, well, that's actually based on a very small portion of overall transactions. So it's hard for us as multifamily investors, to really be sure are about the numbers that we're inputting into our underwriting models, because we're basing it off so little data.   James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, it's, it is just so limited, right? Because everything is done on a private basis on syndication, which is not much of the data being published out there, right. So --   Nikolaï: It's like investing in the stock market, but not knowing how the stocks have performed historically.   James: Yeah. Correct. Correct. So but why do you think this would work? And because if you look at the demographics of the, I mean, because I'm looking at syndication, when we whenever we buy for multifamily.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: But for me, it's just a small part of the whole market.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: Even though we are I mean, maybe my group or my network thinks that that's the whole thing how people buy multifamily. I don't know, that's true, because I network with a lot of different type of people, right. So looking at the classes of investors who are buying multifamily, I think I know for me, my thing is maybe we are one of the, I am one the lowest level part of it, right, because we are buying Class B and C using high net worth individuals and all that, but there are a lot of higher network, higher calibre people who are playing at a different level, which we don't have, which I don't have visibility, maybe you have it right so. So are you trying to look at different classes of investors and cut through all of them? Are you looking at only some classes of people?   Nikolaï: So we're trying to help what we call the small cap to mid middle market investors.   James: Okay.   Nikolaï: So anyone who owns between five units and about, you know, I'd say around 2500 to 5000 units.   James: Okay.   Nikolaï: That's kind of where we stopped, you know, that's where we're focusing on because that, you know, the majority of transactions are actually done by, by small cap to mid-market investors.   James: Okay.   Nikolaï: You know, the multifamily market is historically a mom and pop market. Now, it's, you know, it has transition a bit, investors are getting bigger and bigger. But the reality is the majority of the market is not an institutional market, you know, at the root level, or the private equity firm level or family office level, depending obviously, which metro area you're in, right. New York City is obviously more of an institutional market. Canada, Toronto is a very institutional market, but the majority of cities and metro areas are still, you know, very small cap market. And the problem is that, you know, take you for an example as a syndicator, or even take someone who's not a syndicator, right, because a lot of investors, multifamily aren't syndicators, they just buy their own properties, you know, they end up with maybe, you know, anywhere between 50 and 500 units as time goes by. Now, the problem with with those types of investors and syndicators as yourself is that you do not have access to a team of underwriters, you don't have access to, you know, expensive data that say a real estate investment trust has more than a very big private equity firm has, you don't have access to all those analysts. So, you know, we want to try and make sure that the market stays very level and stays is a level playing field. Because, you know, ultimately, I think the multifamily real estate market is very important for a couple of reasons. Number one, you know, everyone talks about the disparity of wealth, right of the 1%, and how the disparity is getting bigger and bigger. And we could do a whole podcast on that and why it's happened and where it's kind of going. But ultimately, I think, you know, the multifamily market is probably, the market, it's probably the asset class that offers the best returns based on risk, with the best risk-adjusted returns. If you look at Sharpe ratios, and Sortino ratios and all these things. Now, it's also been proven, there's a lot of studies about this, a lot of university studies done on this, that, you know, social mobility comes from education, and access to property, right. The reason why people have been so poor for so long, and like the Brazilian favelas, or the Indian shanty towns, is because people don't have education, and they do not have access to property, they are not able to become landowners, or owners of their own homes, even less become investment property owners, right. So I think multifamily stays as a very important asset class, because, on top of filling a basic need of human beings, that means providing somewhere to live, it also is a very important mover, for the everyday investor, the mom and pop, just the normal person need you to be able to access a very good, very safe, wealth building asset class that does not have the same volatility, or the same pitfalls as say, the stock market and other types of asset classes. So I think it's very important that we provide, you know, tools and data and allow for the smaller investor, the investor that has less than 1000, or even less than 5000 units to be able to continue on performing, continue on from this, this asset class.   James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to a bit more details on some of the big data and artificial intelligence, right.   Nikolaï: Yeah.   James: So yeah, I studied artificial intelligence almost 24 years ago, every now it has become really popular, a lot of startups with artificial intelligence, right.   Nikolaï: Absolutely.   James: So the question is, how do you, I mean, first of all, let's define what, can you define artificial intelligence in your terms in terms of real estate? Because I studied engineering standpoint.   Nikolaï: Yeah, well, I'm not an engineer, by trade, so at least I'll give more of a generalist definition to the people listening which I think is probably gonna be very good. The important thing is to understand, kind of the difference between machine learning and artificial intelligence. So you know, machine learning is more of a, it's a less automated process, right. So a lot of what people are calling artificial intelligence is ultimately just machine learning. And what it is, is that let's say, let's say, you know, I'm a data scientist or an economist, and I build a predictive model using, say, Monte Carlo simulations. Well, I set a, I build a set of hypotheses, I plugged them into my Monte Carlo simulation, and then that runs. Now, with machine learning and artificial intelligence, what becomes very fun as you know, statistics are a funny thing, right? And economic modeling is a very funny thing because even though, you know, people in the economics world swear by predictive analytics, the reality is in data science, it's garbage in garbage out, right. So the outputs always depend on the inputs. So let's say you're doing an underwriting model, and you're looking at an apartment building, and and you say, well if I buy this apartment build in this way, my internal rate of return is going to be 25%. Okay. Now, internal rate of return, net present value is a, is an output or their outputs based ultimately on the strength of those outputs are only as good as the strength of the inputs.   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: And the very important inputs that affect an IRR and NPV, which ultimately led to two of the most important metrics to help you decide whether it's a buy a property or not are rent growth, expense inflation, refinancing interest rate; if your IRR and NPV is based on on refinance, because obviously IRR and NPV has to be based on an exit model. And the exit model can either be a refi or it can be a sale; disposition. And then if it's a disposition, while your IRR and NPV is based, ultimately off the reverse, the reversion cap rates, so the exit cap rate upon sale. Now what everyone's doing right now, in the multifamily market, especially small investors, and mid-market investors is they're just entering these inputs. You know, they're just playing it by ear, and they're not even playing it by ear. They're coming up with these random inputs that are based off absolutely nothing. I just had a huge discussion on LinkedIn about this, with a couple of investors where one guy was saying, well, you know, if I buy it at 5% cap rate, my underwriting model, what I do is, to establish the reversion cap rate. So the cap rate upon eventual sale, let's say five years, is I add 20 basis points to the purchase cap rate per year. So if I bought it at five today at a 5% cap rate, well, then five years from now, I predict that I'll sell it as 6% cap rate, okay. And, you know, people kind of hide behind this type of rule of thumb model, say, well, I'm being conservative, therefore, my underwriting models very good. The reality of it is your underwriting model is bullshit. Okay. It's not worth the the Excel spreadsheet that it's been written upon. The reality is, where are you pulling this, this expansion of 10% or 20%,10 or 20 basis points per year? What are you basing that off? Right? That's what anyone should be asking, What are you basing this off? While being conservative. How do you know you're being conservative?   James: Yeah.   Nikolaï: How do you know you're not being optimistic? Right? You could be being you could actually be very optimistic with that. And conservative might be and then an increase of 0.25 a year, right? The reality of it is that everyone underwriting deals, right now, they're not basing their inputs off any data, right. And they're definitely not basing it off any predictive analytics, because it's one thing to have the data, the historical data. But you know, just because you have historical data doesn't mean necessarily, that's going to repeat itself in the future. That's why we have predictive analytics. So let's say that based on historical data, your 5% acquisition cap rates will actually be a 5.5 in five years. Now, the problem with that is that the future, that history is never guaranteed of the future, right. So that's why you then have to plug in various scenarios where you're considering this. And that's where predictive analytics come very difficult because you're pretty much just kind of taking a shot in the dark and basing things off the past, but you're putting in like a margin of error. With machine learning and artificial intelligence, you're able to make your predictive models better ex post based on ex ante results. So let's say you create a model to predict the future cap rates, well, you want to predict the future cap rate of in five years, it's your goals to sell within five years. Well, if you predict that today, the probability that your five-year cap rate from now is going to be precise, is a lot lower than let's say, in four years, you predict the cap that same cap rate, right, because you'll be closer to your exit. So there'll be less room for margin of error. So what machine learning and artificial intelligence will allow you to do is to consistently kind of reset your model as time advances. So maybe your initial model based upon acquisition was off. But as you advance in time, the artificial intelligence and machine learning continues on training that same model, the same algorithm that you had, and adapts the various inputs and algorithms to make it more and more precise as you get, as you get closer. And on top of that, as you get closer, the range of distribution of property probabilities get smaller. So it's a double effect, your predictive models get even tighter and tighter as time goes by. And that's where [inaudible00:26:03] machine learning and artificial intelligence can really help out. Is that instead of just plugging in these ridiculous exit cap rates, and ridiculous growth rates and ridiculous inflation of expenses, and absolutely ridiculous refinancing interest rates, when we get closer and closer to being able to actually put in inputs that are based on something very, very solid and then, therefore, our underwriting models will become more and more precise. And what we want in underwriting when you're buying a property, whether you're a syndicator, and you're responsible for money of your LPs, or whether it's your own money, the goal of underwriting is not to be conservative. That's not what the goal of underwriting is. And anyone who says that they underwrite, and they're concerned, their underwriting is conservative, what they're really telling you is they don't know how to underwrite, okay.   James: Yeah.   Nikolaï: You don't want to be conservative, you want to be right on the dot, that's what you want to do with underwriting, you want to be as precise as possible because the reason that you buy the property today is you buy it for future cash flows. And cash flows can come in various ways, they come in an annualized cash flow so, so free cash flow, they come in the appreciation of the asset, so the value of that asset gains because of various market dynamics and because of the way you're, you're managing that property. And they also come through the capitalization of your mortgage. So there's a part of your mortgage that you're paying down, which is principal, right. So those are the three cash flows that you can receive. Now, when you're underwriting a deal, and you're looking at how much you should pay for, say, this hundred unit building you're looking at, well, if your inputs are off, you might buy that property. But it's a bad acquisition because you were too optimistic in your inputs. But it also happens that you were too conservative in your books, therefore, you didn't buy the property. Because if you input that at the exit capital, that property is 7%, but, in reality, five years from now, the exit cap rate is five and three quarters, well guess what? You missed one hell of an opportunity.   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: And in real estate investing, the most important thing is time value of money, we only have a very limited time during our lifetimes in which we can invest and create wealth. And we only have so many hours during the day. Therefore the cost of opportunity, the time value of money are the things that we should consider the most in our underwrite. And that's really where machine learning and artificial intelligence will help investors become much, much better. Obviously, you also need education, right? You have to understand these, I mean, this is advanced stuff. And I'm trying to kind of explain it in a simple way, where people who don't have master's degrees and PhDs in finance and engineering can understand it. But the reality of the matter is that multifamily investing is very, it's a very complex, it's a very sophisticated asset class, and you need a certain level of education.The problem being right now, despite the very high level of education that some investors have, we just don't have solid, predictive analytics tools and data to be able to make sure that we're actually able to transfer education into decent acquisitions.   James: Yeah. Well, that's very interesting, because exit cap rate is always being misused or mis-conservative right? So --   Nikolaï: Well, even entering cap rates, even acquisition cap rates, I see people saying, well, you know, I'm not gonna buy that property because it's a five cap rate and the markets trading at 5.5. Okay, is that a stabilized property? No, it's a value add property. Well, the cap rate doesn't, the cap rate is meaningless then. A cap rate is a metric of a stabilized asset. If the asset is not stabilized, there is no cap rate, because a cap rate is a perpetual annuity. It's a return metric, based on an unlevel perpetual annuity, which means the same cash flow every year forever.   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: Now, if you want to be able to calculate that your property has to be stabilized. So if you're not buying a property, because it's a five cap rate, and the market sharing at 5.5, but it's a value add deal, well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to tell you, you should change, you should change fields, you should go play, you should go to Las Vegas and put it on red.   James: Not only that, I mean, not only new investors don't understand the entry cap rate doesn't matter [inaudible 00:30:46] and I don't know, I never see a reason not to do a stabilized deal. Not on commercial, right? So for me, I'm always [inaudible00:30:53] guy, that's why I --   Nikolaï: Well, unless you're a private equity firm or your family office or you're a RET or you're an ultra high net worth individual who now has, you know, net value of anywhere between ten and hundred and fifty million dollars, there's no real reason to do stabilize deals, right. The reason you wanted to stabilize deals is, because you have a very high net worth, or because you're trying to de-risk your portfolio. Right?   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: That's why you would just stabilize deals for small cap or mid cap investor.   James: Yeah, yeah. Most of the time. I mean, commercials always value at play. I mean,   Nikolaï: Of course.   James: I mean, there's a lot of people doing stabilized deal nowadays, just by getting a higher mortgage and getting slightly lower price, play on the mortgage side with the interest to get a cash flow, but --   Nikolaï: And that can work if you're a neurosurgeon, right? If you're a surgeon making a million and a half a year, and you're 35 and you say, well, you know, I want to start buying multifamily property because I like, I like real estate and I like the tangible part of the asset class. But I don't need any money right now, because I'm making a million, I'm making a million and a half a year. I don't need any cash flow. And I'm very long term and I just want to build myself a nice retirement, you know, because you know, that's what I want as objective. Well, then yes, buy stabilize property or be an LP and syndication, or purchase that stock in the [inaudible00:32:23], that's fine. But if your goal is to increase your wealth exponentially, in a short period of time, and what I mean by a short period of time is fifteen to, five to fifteen years. Well, then, yeah, you're gonna have to do some kind of value add, you can't just do financial arbitrage all the time.   James: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of deals out there in different asset class, which can give you that cash flow, right. I mean, you can buy a stabilized mobile home park, you know, it'll give you higher cash in cash than any multifamily deals.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: So even self-storage, or even multifamily, which has been stabilized, you get, you'll get good cash flow. But how long will that cash be guaranteed? Because you have a very tight DSER at that point of time. And let's say the market turn, you may not be, your DSER might be compromised right now, because you don't have any buffer. Right?   Nikolaï: Especially if you did not properly manage the terms of your mortgages. Right. So that's very dangerous. Like if you feel that you're, if you feel that the markets going to shift, say interest rate wise, the easiest way to kind of pull yourself out of that situation you just talk about is, you know, just take longer-term mortgages, you know, make sure that the mortgage does not end in five years, make sure it's a 10 year term, or even maybe a 30 year term. Right? That's, that's the easiest way to manage that risk.   James: Yeah, just do a hard loan.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: Which gives you like, 45 years. I mean, there's the other trick that a lot of people play is, you know, showing you need cash in cash based during IO period. And nowadays, people are getting five years, seven years, IO period and sometimes people think, oh, I will not hold, you know, that deal for long term. I mean, you are hoping on not holding, holding, right. But you do not know what's going to be happening to the economy, right?   Nikolaï: It's a dangerous game to play. And I'm not saying don't play it, but make sure you have the, make sure you have the education and the know-how to be able to manage that risk. It's all risk management. Ultimately, that's what it is.   James: Yeah, yeah.   Nikolaï: The problem, the problem is a lot of people are doing this, and they don't know what the hell they're doing.   James: Yeah, I mean, I think so there's so much of capital out there right now, looking for money to be placed in some way.   Nikolaï: Oh definitely.   James: And people don't think that are they going to putting 1% in the CD, I might as well put here and get like six, seven per cent, right? Cash Flow, right? And,--   Nikolaï: And that's, that's the retail market. Like that's, that's small investors like me and you the reality of is the real cap, the real capital flow right now is at the institutional level, there is so much higher level money and smart money searching for returns right now. I mean, we can't even fathom small investors, how much money, I mean, family offices, typically, if you take the family office market, typically always allocated maybe like, I don't know, depending on the family office in the region, but usually anywhere between, you know, maybe eight to twelve per cent of their overall asset allocation, capital allocation to what they call alternative assets, right. And real estate as part of alternative assets. Now, over the last 10, I'd say over the last 10 years, the last decade, family offices have become more and more in tune to the real estate markets. High net worth families also, especially towards like multifamily real estate, and more and more real estate is no longer considered just as, as something under the alternative asset umbrella. But now it's kind of becoming its own umbrella. And what that's doing is that instead of family offices, and we're talking about family offices that have trillions of dollars, right. These are not these are not small things, these are big moving bodies with a lot of capital, we're talking about multi-billions of dollars, not trillions, multi-billion dollar family offices, that are now instead of allocating, you know, 8% to real estate, well, now they're allocating 20% to real estate. So and that's, that's a scale like, there's a lot of them out there. And we haven't even talked about the private equity firms. We haven't even talked about the pension funds, the International pension funds, you know, people talking about globalization and international money, thinking that it's just, you know, rich Russians is going to Sunny Isles, Florida, buy $10 million condominiums. That's not what it is. The global movement of money to American and Canadian Real Estate are things like the Amsterdam teachers pension fund, or government workers pension fund, you know, allocating, allocating, you know, 100 billion dollars to the American real estate market. Now that's, that has a big, that puts a big dent on the supply and demand of real estate. And that's what ultimately drives property value is much more than interest rates. Interest rates only, only influence property values, like people were talking about, especially the last couple of years, all we know, if interest rates go up, cap rates will follow up, they'll go up. That's not true. Capital flow drives cap rates and values and properties and multifamily; interest rates only influence cap rates and values.   James: Very interesting perspective, that's you are right. There's so many, too much money, even out of United States is looking for money to place, right. Like the other dad had a call from the UK. It's a family office who want to invest in the UK and they're looking for like operators like me, and I was asking them, what's the return expectation? They say this 22% IRR credits and I said, well, I [inaudible 00:37:58] you guys, I can get better money in the United States right, so --   Nikolaï: Exactly. And all the, all the money from the quantitative easing the follow the 2008 crash, I mean, all that quantitative easing money, a lot of it still, after even 10 years, has not even found a place for it yet. Right? So there, there's a lot of money chasing deals, there's a lot of money chasing deals.   James: Correct. Correct. Right. That's true. That's true. So coming back to the exit cap rate. So I know that's one of the hardest parameters to measure. Right? So.   Nikolaï: Absolutely.   James: But can you clarify again, how did you, how would you use artificial intelligence to find that a more accurate exit cap rate? You know, T minus five, my T minus 5, five years earlier, before you hit that five years mark of selling, assuming five years of selling.   Nikolaï: So it's the computing power, right. So it's a computer, what we do is, we'll build, so we'll do we'll say, I'm sorry for anyone who hasn't studied, you know, high level university finance, but or statistics, you know, we'll build a, say, a regression model. So we'll look at past data. We'll plug all that in, in order to build a predictive model, a future model being able to come out with future cap rates, and, you know, the more data that we're able to plug into our regression model. So historically, what real estate institutions and economists have use is what they call the linear regression model, use the Monte Carlo simulations. Now, the problem with the linear regression model is that you know, past transactions or data are, are, are also affected a lot by various things like, you know, political environment, and capital markets. And there's a whole bunch of factors. So there's a new model that's being used more and more, especially with a lot of postdoctoral students in statistics, it's called a Quantile regression model. So that's where we're able to create that same kind of, I'm saying this in layman's terms as much as possible, we're able to take past historical data, build that kind of linear model, kind of, like build that line chart for people to understand, and we kind of repeat that line chart in the future. But we're also able to start to weigh that those data points with various things like a new government, with quantitative easing, with the war, with various factors that may be affected that models to make it less linear. And then we're able to start to better predict future stats and future cap rates. So that's the first step of it. The second step is, let's say, right now, we built our Quantile regression model. And now we compute it and what it says to us is well, T minus five cap rates, or five-year cap rate is going to be between, let's say, we have a couple of tracks, it's hard to explain to people who have not done statistics. But we have a couple of tracks. And ultimately, what it says is that the highest probabilities are that cap rate is going to be between 5.75 and 6.10% in five years for that specific market. Now, like I said, as we get closer to the five year period from now, the less the margin of error is, because we're closer and multifamily market moves very slowly. So predicting, the easiest way to understand is predicting 25 years out from now, it's very hard? Your 25 year prediction is going to be way more, there's more room for it to be completely off than your two-year prediction. So we build a model for the five-year prediction, and then starting tomorrow, every day, our artificial intelligence recalculates that model. So as it recalculates, the model gets more and more precise, because let's say we took statistics from today to 20 years ago, let's say we took the cap rate of that market, starting from today, and 20 years back. Well, obviously, the next 20 years are not going to be exactly the last 20 years. But that's ultimately what statistics do, we try and kind of say, well, let's take the last 20 years, there's a margin of error, that's what's going to be the next 20 years.   So what's cool with the artificial intelligence is without actually having to do anything, every day, the artificial intelligence kind of brings the model a day closer and adapts the model with more and more weight on what's going on right now, rather than what happened 20 years ago. And the artificial intelligence is also able to measure what today it predicted for yesterday, versus what actually happened. And what's the spreading difference and what caused that spread? And therefore, once it's able to determine what caused that spread, it'll add that into the equation for the future cap rate model so it becomes much more precise.   James: Yes, but don't try to run it in iteration on a daily or monthly basis to watch the whole investment process. But how do you make it on day zero? Well, today we're buying today how does it iterate then when on a day zero?   Nikolai: Well, what it is I don't understand the question.   James: So my question is, you said the data is being fed into the system to get more accurate exit cap rate. But you're making a decision to buy today? Is the iteration happening from today to all the investment cycle? Or do you do it earlier before you decide to buy a deal?   Nikolai: Okay, I understand what you mean. So like, for determining your actual purchase cap rate,   James: Yes, correct whatever price that I'm going to pay today because that's what I'm getting into the deal. That's the point of me making a decision, whether this is a good deal, and I'm going to be raising money and telling everybody it's a good deal.   Nikolai: The purchase cap rate is a whole other set of statistics and data models. That's more I'd say, determining today's cap rate is much more endeavor of collecting more historical data. Because like I said, let's say JLL Jones Lang LaSalle which is one of the biggest brokerages, they come out with reports and say, Okay, well, the cap rate, let's say in Austin is, 5.2%. Let's say the mean cap rate is 5.2%. Well, that's based on maybe what like 30 or 40%, of actual transactions that happen because they don't have data on like the off-market transactions, or the pocket listings or this and that, right. And on top of that, they haven't normalized the cap rates on whether, let's say, a building traded at a 4.6 cap rate. Well, as we said, if that property wasn't stabilized, well, then that cap rate is off. That's not a good cap rate. So that's a second thing. So for establishing what you should pay to the intrinsic, what's intrinsic value today. that's ultimately what I think the question is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but let's say you're looking at a 100 unit property, what is the actual intrinsic value of that property? What's the real capital I should be buying at? Well, that's a question of having the proper volume of data, Okay, number one. So that's what we're working on right now is making sure we keep on building our database. So instead of our market cap rates being based on the off 30 or 40%, of inventory, or transactions. Well, it'll be based off maybe 60, 70, 75%, therefore, that cap rate becomes more precise. Secondly, we actually look at every transaction and say, qualitatively because that's the first thing is a quantitative aspect, in statistics, we have quantitative, qualitative. So the quality of the data, once we have the quantity, we look at the cap rates and say, okay, that property traded for a 4.2 cap rate. Was that a stabilized property? No, it was not. Once we add the cap x, we have the new revenues. And we adjust the sales price for cap x, but we also adjust NOI. Now we can look at the stabilized cap rate. So that's the qualitative aspects of it. And now we're able to say, here are the market cap rates, here's the low end of cap rates, here's the high end of cap rates, here's the mean, or the media. And here's that range of cap rates. Because cap rates are based on the Capri calculation ultimately, even though people think it's NOI divided by sale price, I'm sure that's not what a cap rate is, that's how you find the cap rate of a soul stabilized property. The actual cap rate calculation or formula is a mathematical equation of R minus G, it's algebra, so are being returned minus g, which is growth. And R is defined as RF plus RP. So the risk-free rate plus the risk premium that you as an investor are looking for or that the market is looking for, a perceived risk premium, obviously. So what we want to do then, that would be like a third step, and we're not at that level right now. But I hope within the next couple of years, we will be, and I'm sure you as an engineer, probably understanding how valuable our ability to do that would become for the market. Is that then you're starting to be able to say, well, right now, that property is being listed at a say, let's say the range for cap rates in Austin is really five to six, obviously, six is going to be in the worst neighborhoods. Five is going to be the best neighborhoods because it's a matter of risk. Well, then you're looking at the property, let's say it's at a 5.7 cap rate. But it's kind of on the limit of a bad neighborhood, good neighborhood. And then you're able to intrinsically say, but the intrinsic cap rate of that property, the real intrinsic value of that cap rate is actually 5.3. Now, if you didn't know that, and you just said, well, the average cap rate is 5.7 well, it's not so much of a deal, I'm not gonna buy that property. But now with this new data, what you're able to see is, wait a minute, it looks more expensive than what it should be but in reality it's not, it's actually cheaper because the real intrinsic value is a 5.3 cap rate. And that would really unlock the potential of what we call value investing, what like a Warren Buffett has built his entire career off of the stock market? Well, he was able to build that value investing exists so much, in the stock market, because of the quantity and the quality of the data. The quantity of data is accessible to everyone, the quality of the data is a bit harder to get the qualitative aspects. That's why Warren Buffett was has been such a great investor, because he invested so heavily into being able to pull out the qualitative aspects of the data, well, now we would be able to do the same thing, you would be able to do the same thing as a multifamily investor. You would have access to the quantity of data needed for you, then to increase your knowledge based on the qualitative aspects of it, and then be able to properly price that acquisition. And then once you're able to do that, well, then you can go say to your investors, look, this is why I'm buying this deal. This is why it's a good deal. And if on top of that, you're able to be more precise with your exit cap rate, and the growth rates of your revenues and expenses and your refinancing rates. Well, you're going to be a much more confident investor.   James: You are making it really what you call a --   Nikolai: It's a more efficient market.   James: It's a more efficient way of actually determining your purchase because you can really just say generally, Austin is what five cap, it's not true, [inaudible00:50:46].   Nikolai: It's kind of scary to say, but we're all kind of invested in multifamily kind of half blindfold. The guys like me and you, and there's a whole bunch of other guys out there really intelligent wrestlers. We're all invested, based on intuition experience, a very strong knowledge base. But we're ultimately kind of invested with one eye closed. Now it's even worse for people who don't have our knowledge base and experience because they're all invested in completely blindfolded.   James: Interesting. So, if you can get that kind of data where you can look at the stock market, and what's the potential, especially if it's in the path of growth. And what's the risk that you're buying? There are some deals, even though you buy it at the lowest cap rate for that market, it could be still the best growth because it could be just like another big explosion, in terms of jobs, is going to be happening in that area just because of the path of growth.   Nikolai: That's so important because if you're a pro forma and you're underwriting you predicted a 2% growth rate in revenue. But in those five years, the analyze growth radio was six. Well, you probably didn't buy that property, when you should have. And the other thing is the same if you predicted a 6% growth rate, and it was two, then you bought that property you shouldn't have, But what most people will say is well, the guy who predicted 6%, he should have put in 2%, like he should have been conservative, but that's not necessarily true. That's a half-truth. That's actually a mistake in logical reasoning because the other guy who says, I'm going to plug in a 2% growth rate because that's what historically happens. What happens if you invest in a market where the growth rate is actually 6%? And that the other intelligent investors knew or predicted that it would be 6%, while they're willing to overpay, according to you for a property, and then you're not buying anything, you're not generating any returns, you're not building your wealth, and you're just kind of sitting on the sidelines there, Bah, humbugging saying, well, the markets paying way too much for the properties and these guys are stupid, stupid money, blah, blah, blah, I'm going to wait for the market to crash and blah, blah, blah, I know guys who've been saying this since 2012. And they have not bought anything since 2012. They haven't generated any returns. All under the pretext of being conservative investors. You know what, they're not conservative investors, you know why because they're not investors. They haven't bought anything, because they take themselves out of the market, and they're sitting on the sidelines, and they're just making up for lack of precision in their underwriting through, this kind of pseudo-conservatism.   James: I think it just depends on the sophistication of the investors. If you look at nowadays, multifamily has become so popular, so many people who did not have the financial education background or the way to analyze a deal. There's a lot of parameters that go into any deals. That's what you mentioned, you mentioned so many parameters, nobody will look at that. Everybody said multifamily is good. I bought it and it went 300%. And they say, Oh, I'm a really good operator. Well, actually, you should have made 500% because the market gave you at least 400%. 100%, you just did 300%, why did you do 300%?   Nikolai: That comes down to what we call the search for alpha. We want to outperform the market. And all these people and there's a whole bunch of them now there's gurus and mentors and coaches, and they're giving all these online classes or seminars or whatnot, or they're boasting about being such great real estate investors. And the reality of it is they don't even know what they did. They're like, well, I generated X percent returns, and I've created X amount of millions of dollars in profit over the last five and 10 years. But that's actually quite average. That's what the market does, as long as you are in the market. Of course, that's what you generated. Now, did you generate more than what the market did? That's the real question. And unfortunately, there are not enough people in the market asking that question. And if you're a passive investor, that's the question you should be asking your syndicator or your GP is not this is what you generated, great. That sounds awesome. You generated 22% IRR annually over the last five years. What did the market generate? The market generated 23.   James: I remember the other day I saw someone, he said, I made 60%. In one year, I bought it in the first year and I sold it in twelve months, I made 60%, I said well, you should have made that 100% because the market went up by that much.   Nikolai: And that's why I'm so bullish on education, and why I think it's so important that multifamily investors get educated and push their knowledge base, because, this is not Nintendo, this is not Xbox, we're not just playing, baseball on our PlayStation three, or Playstation four, this is serious business, and even more, so if you're syndicator. Just in the knowledge base, you know needs to continuously be expanded. And that's why data also needs to be there because knowledge without data is also quite useless.   James: Correct. So coming back to being the alpha in the market. I know you can look at different market appreciation versus how much you are making money. So coming to, let's say, for a decision where you have a deal in your hand, and you're deciding whether you want to sell or you want to refile, or you 10:31 exchange. So can you give us a good methodology to do to make that decision?   Nikolai: To make the decision on whether you beat the market or...   James: Whether you want to sell a deal, or whether you want to refinance, whether you want to hold it for long term or you want to do a 10:31 exchange? How would you approach it?   Nikolai: Well, I'd approach it on a very individual basis. Number one, I think everyone has a very different investor profile. What I mean by investor profile is, what type of returns do you want? And when? What are the strengths and weaknesses that you possess as either an owner-operator or syndicator or whatnot? What access to capital do you have? How patient is that capital? What's the cost of the capital? Now, if it's your own money, obviously, it's probably the most patient money with the cheapest cost of capital. If you're raising money from other people, well, then obviously, there's a less patient aspect to it, and the cost of capital is going to be higher. If you're taking money from bridge loans, well, that's even worse. So if you're taking money from hard money lenders, well, then obviously, your cost of capital is going to be very, very high. So these are all things that you have to consider, you also have to consider where you are in your career with regards to what it is that you want to achieve, either as annual cash flow or just overall that value and what type of risk you're willing to accept.   So ultimately, you have to be able to answer those questions initially, to be able to decide on the strategies. Because ultimately, people in multifamily investing, what they do not understand is the difference between philosophy and strategies. Now, everyone should have their own investment philosophy, based on their investor profile. Now, once you have that philosophy, what you want to do is adapt your strategies according to where you are in the market, and where you are in your career. That's something that is very misunderstood. People say, I'm a buy and hold investor. We hear that a lot in multifamily. So ultimately, what you're saying that you do not have an investment philosophy, that you think you do. You think your philosophy is to buy and hold. But buy and hold is not a philosophy, it's a strategy. So what you're saying is, ultimately, you're investing all the time throughout the whole of your career, using just one strategy. That's very dangerous because let's say the exit point of that strategy eventually, say the day that you do have to sell upon retirement because even though you're buying a whole, you might not be a legacy buy and hold investor. What I mean by that is a legacy buy and hold investor is someone who's just going to pass down the properties to their children, upon death, or upon retirement, whereas most buy and hold investors, what they really need is, I'm going to buy and hold until my retirement, then I'll start selling off. Well, what happens if, during your retirement, you're in a trough of the market cycle. What if you're in that part of the market cycle, or you're at the bottom of it, that's a really bad time to sell? Well, that's the mistake of always investing using only one strategy. So what I would say is that you have to establish your philosophy, understand that your investor profile is going to change over time. And the market cycle moves through phases, there are different phases of the market cycle and your strategies, you have to be able to use different strategies at different phases of the cycle, and at different phases of your career as your profile changes, or adapts or morphs. And that's how you then establish well, with this property, should I buy it and hold it or should I sell it? Or should I just refinance it? What should I do? And I'll give you a very concrete answer. Once I've explained all this.   I have a student here because I do teach real estate investing courses. We actually built a college we call it The College of the Emmerich's. Now you don't have to, it's not college level education. But what we're saying is that from everyday multifamily investors, if you really want to learn college level stuff without having to go to college, well, we have a couple of courses that we teach you very high-level stuff, very concrete work. You still need coaching from coaches and mentors and all that stuff. We actually teach courses. So one of my students in these courses, he's a very successful real estate investor in Montreal, Canada, Montreal is the most important multifamily market in Canada. It's a very strong multifamily market, very competitive. Now he's up to about I guess, 150 units, all on his own, no outside money, no passive money. And he started having trouble refinancing out of his properties because what he was doing, it seems a very big value add investor. So he was using two strategies value added buy and hold. But he was erroneously thinking that value-added and buy and hold was his investment philosophy, which is not, those are two strategies that are part of the philosophy. So he came to me and he said, well, look, banks have now started to tighten their DSCR ratings, and their LTV, therefore, I'm buying a property at a billion dollars, and putting in $300,000 into it. And now the market value of that property is $2 million. But I'm not able to refine it $2 million, because of the banking standards, they're only allowing me to refine out of 1.6. So now, if they're letting you refine out at 1.6, on a 75%, LTV, what they're saying is when you have to leave in 25% of 1.6 plus $400,000, that's a lot of equity, that it is unable to pull out because he was doing too much of a good job at value add. And the capital markets, the banks are not able to follow market value, banks, especially in Canada, are much more conservative than in the US, but even in the US, there is a lot of people buying properties. And they're not able to refine the whole value, because their total loan dollars are blocked by either LTV or DSCR. What I call economic value, the economic value is not as high as market transaction value. Therefore, instead of leaving 25% of equity, you're leaving 25 plus, in this case, $400,000.00. Now that's where I said to him perfect, I looked at his portfolio, I said, well, you have to adapt your strategies, you have to change the strategies, you can no longer at this moment, use the buy and hold strategy, you have to use the fix and flip strategy.   Because you're too good at fixing value add. And you're not able to pull out as much equity as you used to be through refinancing. Therefore, now you have to seriously consider selling that property. Because you can go and get $2 million for other markets right now. So that's an extra $400,000. Because he was able only to refinance 1.6 out of it. So now he's able to get the full market value, pull that cash out, and he has access to a lot of opportunities. He has a really strong bird document work. So his cost of opportunity is very high. If he's leaving all that equity, in these properties that are all stabilized, he's making way more money by doing more value-add stuff. So he made the decision and now he holds zero properties. He sold all of his 140 units because that has allowed him to get more and more cash rich, with less and less money and equity and properties and gain access to more and more opportunities. And ultimately, his annual portfolio, the total return on investment is in the 40 to 70% IRR. Whereas while he was doing buy and hold his overall portfolio was only returned to him maybe 20% if you consider the weighted average return on investment. So that's how I would attack that. I know, that's a very long-winded answer.   James: I think that's the right answer. So I mean, the return on equity, which is date right now, I mean, on this deal. There's so much of dead equity not producing cash. And if your cost of capital, which is also equal to an opportunity outside is much higher, you might as well just cash that out by selling it off.   Nikolai: Because the refinancing is living you to a liquid.   James: Recently, I mean the banks have been more stringent on refine. So the last refine they did ask me to leave 5% my cash basis, which they never did in the past, things have changed. I think that's okay. That's how the banks work now.   Nikolai: It's okay. But the problem is that on a $15 million property, you know, that's two and a half million dollars less cash you have for the next acquisition.   James: Correct. I mean, it depends on what is the cost of capital outside plus how much you can pull out and how much your equity stuck on it. So, coming back to market cycles, because I think this is one thing that I want to ask you because I think you have studied with Dr. Glenn Mueller. So right now, if I look at the latest Q1 forecast for apartments in the hyper supply market. I don't know if that's something that you are aware or not, but...   Nikolai: Nationally?   James: Nationally yes it's not a local, but lots of markets are in it for supply. It's very, very few markets are in the expansion cycle. And even though they are in the expansion cycle, they are at the last stage of the expansion cycle. And all the markets that are on expansion cycle, or the market that recovered late like Las Vegas, Phoenix and a lot of Econo markets. So can you give an overview of what do you think the market is? And what would the strategy be for investors now?   Nikolai: Well, I think number one, I would say that I try not to look at national or macro market cycles. I think that's the first thing to consider. Because multifamily real estate is so hyperlocal. So I look much more at those markets, cycles of hyper supply and expansion and contraction, I look at more of like a metro area. So like you're in Austin, Texas, I look at Austin, I wouldn't really consider the multifamily market at large, because it's kind of like looking at cap rates on an unstabilize property, it's kind of a waste of time. Now, I'd say that I haven't looked at recent data of where all the cycle, where all the markets are, the phases of the cycle. But I mean, I think it is safe to say that, most of the markets right now are in the later phases of the game, or later innings, as Howard Marks likes to say, in the stock market and capital markets. But also, as he says, we don't really know, see the thing with market cycles, and whether it be with Dr. Mueller, whether it be with Karen Trice, out of Australia, and also all the other various professors and researchers of market cycles, is

You’ve heard the saying quality over quantity, right? We are sure it has come about when talking about food at restaurants, television shows, and now even what type of hosting to choose as a business. It’s essential to know when to make the right call for what business expenses need priority.  Is choosing premium hosting worth the higher cost? Or can you get everything you need without spending more than you need to?  In the debate; Premium Vs. Affordable hosting, we uncover the hidden truths behind choosing the right option for your website. Affordable hosting Affordable hosting is often a server with generic software where you can build whatever you want. Thousands of websites opt for this option because of the price. If you are willing to spare one coffee per month, it may be worthwhile. It is perfect for smaller businesses with limited traffic, files, and storage on their pages. They are stored and hosted on a single, shared server. These perks do not always have to mean they lack functionality. But, they're built for any platform which can lead to performance and security issues. Cons The term shared hosting is an interchangeable word for cheap hosting as it does just that. By opting for cheap hostings, you will be sharing the features with others. It may result in a slower load speed. You will also be limited to other features such as security and resources like a personalised domain name.  Your audience may question the authority of your website when it ends with wordpress.com. A clean and on-brand URL will help put the metaphoric cherry on top of your website. Cheaper plans have storage caps and data limits that will restrict your capabilities on your website. Storage caps directly affect your page's performance and can even extend to your search engine ranking efforts.  Nobody likes a slow website. Sharing the same hosting server with other sites will increase your load speed and decrease your click-through-rate. Pros Do you love to hear the bad news before the good, or is it just us?  Shared or Standard websites are more affordable, less complicated, and quicker to finish up. You still get all the necessary features to keep your website up and running in a cheap and obtainable way, letting you focus on other areas of your business in more detail.  The main feature which stands out is the price. You will be saving up to ten times more by relying on shared hostings. The extra money in your pocket can make the difference for other significant business aspects that may not have cheaper options. You can always upgrade at a later stage.  You can look at it like you are renting an apartment - you share the space. It means you cannot use up a lot of space on your pages. But that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. I mean, minimalism is trending after all. Because you are renting this space, that means the landlord will look after any maintenance or updates along the way.  Premium Hosting If you flinch at the words: painfully slow, hacked or crash, you’ve probably experienced this from a cheap hosting service. You are not alone. After receiving increased traffic or running out of bandwidth, your site can often come to a halt. These are some of the reasons why premium hosting may be for you.  The Pros Your website is your most valuable asset. Security is an important feature that drove James and Joseph to invest in premium hosting to grow Web3. Premium hosting servers have reliable measures to ensure your website is safe and secure. They send data through a secure SSL network for monitoring that enhances their reliability. These protocols also mean reduced load time, even while being inundated with traffic. Your website will have 100% allocated for optimal performance, which will aid your Search Engine rankings. You can feel rest assured that your site is in safe hands.  The Cons  Premium hosted websites often cost more and take more time to finalise. At web3, we use WP Engine, which offers several different hosting solutions for WordPress, from around $38 / month. They allow for a generous amount of websites, domains, visitors, storage, and bandwidth. WordPress and other hosting companies tend to charge more. They host on better infrastructure designed for WordPress. They also build for that platform and can offer better support, security, and admin work.  With a new website or business, you don't need all those extra features. You can suffice with a more affordable hosting option. One that will get you up and running without making you break that piggy bank. Now, this is where cheap hosting comes into play.  Conclusion  It is necessary to know what exactly you want from your website. It will allow you to look beyond the price, which is often the feature that stands out the most. If you're after a run of the mill site with no upkeep, the affordable option will suit you nicely. However, to save you future headaches, we recommend investing in a premium hosting service. Transcript James: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Web3 marketing debate show. I'm your host, James Banks.  Joseph: And I'm your host, Joseph Chesterton. James: And today, we will be debating everything and everything about hosting. So premium hosting versus affordable hosting. Unfortunately, I'll be taking the affordable hosting corner of this debate. Joseph: Sounds like you are preparing to lose already, James. James: We'll see about that, Joseph. Joseph: And I'm obviously on the premium hosting side. James: Well, without further ado, let's start the show. So Joseph, why is premium hosting better than affordable hosting? Joseph: Well, James, websites are one of your business's most valuable assets. If your website isn't working for you like it's crashed or it's down, then you potentially could be losing millions or even billions of dollars. You need to invest in really good hosting.  With affordable hosting, you run the risk of having your website hacked, crash, or run out of bandwidth. So as a result, you would lose business and lose reputation for your company.  Good hosting is everything. Yes, of course, it may cost more, but that comes with support, it comes with better infrastructure and it's easier to build your website on.  So that's about all that we need to cover. Thanks for listening in and we'll speak to you next time. No, I'm kidding. James, why is affordable hosting better than premium? James: Probably should have clarified this before we started, but I guess we need to define what is premium hosting and what is affordable hosting. So in your words, Joseph, what would you define a premium web host? What are some examples? How much do they cost? What's the difference? Joseph: A premium host usually is dedicated to the platform you're building for.  So for example, WordPress, you'll find managed WordPress hosting companies, generally have a higher price tag because they are hosting on better infrastructure that's built specifically for WordPress. On top of that, they build specifically for the platform and can then offer better support, security and administrative work. They do that on the server.  Whereas affordable hosting is often just a server with generic software that enables you to build whatever you want. But this isn't specifically built for WordPress or any type of platform. It means that you may run into performance issues, security issues, and the list goes on. James: Okay. And how much would a premium WordPress website hosting server costs per month, approximately? Where do they start at and what's the range? Joseph: Premium hosting depends on your usage requirements. We use a company called WP engine and they offer several different hosting solutions for WordPress, and they start at AUD$38 a month and scale from there.  They allow for many sites and a generous amount of visitors, storage and bandwidth. That is something you probably won’t see on shared hosting or affordable hosting, which is what we're calling it today.  Affordable hosting can cost anywhere from a dollar a month to... I guess it could cost hundreds of dollars, but generally, you would see it priced around $5-20. That's generally the affordable hosting range. James: So what I'm hearing is that for a managed specialised service, such as a managed WordPress hosting environment, it's going to run you the cost of maybe about $40 per month. But you'll have the added benefit of better performance, more security, specialised hosting environments, so on and so forth. But I can get exactly that for $5 a month. So why would I pay four or five times the price for the same thing, Joseph? Joseph: Arguably, if the server was the same as the affordable hosting as far as hardware goes, yes, you probably could get that. But the thing is, you won't get 24/7 support. You won't get prebuilt themes in WordPress.  You won't get automated backups that... Well, you may get automated backups but you can’t guarantee that they will work if your server crashes. With premium and managed hostings, you don't usually see them crash. Whereas with affordable, you run the risk of it crashing.  You get a team of people that manage the server so that if things like security issues become an issue, then they'll fix it for you, and you can rest easy knowing that your business is well looked after online. James: So basically what you're saying is, although you have to pay more, what that added cost means is, added supporting service. But what if I want to take care of it myself and pocket the change? What would be the value in that case? Joseph: I mean, you could do that when you're trying to run a business, you run the risk of your website going down and then having no one to bring it back up, except for yourself.  It might be limited support, but you'll have to wait 24 hours or even pay for support or get shipped to another company. We found this out the other day when we were helping a website recover from being crashed on their own affordable hosting.  When we contacted the provider, they said, "Yeah. We can help you, but it's going to cost X amount, and it's going to go through a third-party provider. We're not going to do the help for you." We had to recover the hacked website that was down for the client on our own, which we could easily do. But if you're on a managed hosting platform, then they will take care of that for you.  They'll be able to restore the website in seconds, rather than a couple of hours that it took to recover.  On top of saving money, the reason why you pay the extra amount for premium hosting is that the platforms that they post on, the software that they provide is fine-tuned. It will run your software better than just the generic software you'll get from the affordable hosting. James: Well, that's a pretty convincing argument, Joseph, but what about my emails? These whizzbang high-performance servers that you're talking about don't allow me to put my emails on it. And I've got emails coming out of the wazoo.  If I were to not have a server without emails, it's going to cost me so much more. Why would I even consider having to go to the server that doesn't allow me to put my email accounts on it? Joseph: It's funny you say that because that was another issue that a client came to us about. They had three websites hosted on their affordable hosting, and they had email accounts on top of that and a dozen accounts that were filling up.  Each account had a couple of gigabytes of emails hosted on it, and when your hosting server only has, in this instance, 20 gigabytes of storage, when your email accounts are on the same platform and each account has a couple of gigabytes, there was no room left for the hosting, which crashed the website and meant that the website wasn't able to be used. And then on top of that, all the emails were bouncing because there wasn't enough space available for the emails to come through.  The better option is you should use a platform like Microsoft or Google or any other email provider. Let them take care of the emails for you.  There might be a cost per account, but if your server goes down, then you will lose not only your website, but you will also lose your emails on top of that.  That's a pretty huge loss to your business if both your emails and your websites go down, especially if you rely on them to make money day today. James: Well, you're probably thinking by now, "Well, geez, there wasn't much of a debate with this show," and why? It's because it's the truth.  Over the past 10 years, Joseph and I have been in the web game, we've dealt with over a hundred different website hosting companies. All of the major ones you can think of having the same rule: you get what you pay for.  You pay for peanuts and you expect diamonds, that's just not how it works.  Particularly in the case of web hosting, you get what you pay for. Hosting for your website is in proportion to all other business, marketing and advertising expenses. It’s one of the last things you'll ever have to worry about. It shouldn't even be a cost consideration.  Of course, if your actual website is working for your business, keep things safe and secure. Rest easy at night and invest in high quality, premium hosting infrastructure. You won’t regret it.  Take it from us, out of dealing with how many retrieved hosting horror stories we've had to help people fix over the years. I can't even think of how many that has been.  So with that said, if you need help with your website, whether that be cheap hosting, poor quality, unreliability, spam issues or you're getting hacked, drop us a line at web3.com.au.  We can help you get set up with an infrastructure that will not let you down.  So with that said and done, we will wrap up another episode of the Web3 marketing debate show. For the next episode, we'll be talking about all things SEM and SEO-related software.  Stay tuned and we will talk to you again real soon.   Discover more at: 

Every day, we spend an average of 20,000 breaths with 11,000 litres of air, primarily made with subconscious effort. If you want better health, changing your breathing technique probably isn’t the first option that comes to mind. We don’t even think about it; we don’t pay attention to how we do it. But it turns out that how you breathe has far-reaching effects on many aspects of human health. Discovering what it means to breathe correctly is crucial for greater wellness. In this episode, author and journalist, James Nestor, joins us in seeking to unlock a person’s full breathing potential. He discusses the myriad of health benefits controlled respiration can provide. You’ll also learn how industrialisation made it harder to breathe correctly and how various exercises can improve your respiration. Listen to this episode to discover simple methods to maximise the benefits of each breath you take.   Get Customised Guidance for Your Genetic Make-Up For our epigenetics health program all about optimising your fitness, lifestyle, nutrition and mind performance to your particular genes, go to  https://www.lisatamati.com/page/epigenetics-and-health-coaching/. You can also join our free live webinar on epigenetics.   Online Coaching for Runners Go to www.runninghotcoaching.com for our online run training coaching.   Consult with Me If you would like to work with me one to one on anything from your mindset, to head injuries, to biohacking your health, to optimal performance or executive coaching, please book a consultation here: https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/consultations.   Order My Books My latest book Relentless chronicles the inspiring journey about how my mother and I defied the odds after an aneurysm left my mum Isobel with massive brain damage at age 74. The medical professionals told me there was absolutely no hope of any quality of life again, but I used every mindset tool, years of research and incredible tenacity to prove them wrong and bring my mother back to full health within 3 years. Get your copy here: http://relentlessbook.lisatamati.com/ For my other two best-selling books Running Hot and Running to Extremes chronicling my ultrarunning adventures and expeditions all around the world, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/books.   My Jewellery Collection For my gorgeous and inspiring sports jewellery collection ‘Fierce’, go to https://shop.lisatamati.com/collections/lisa-tamati-bespoke-jewellery-collection.   Here are three reasons why you should listen to the full episode: Discover how carbon dioxide is necessary for getting enough oxygen in your body. Learn how soft foods and bottle feeding during childhood can impact your health as an adult. Understand how oral exercises and breathing practices can significantly improve your wellbeing.   Resources DEEP: Freediving, Renegade Science, and What the Ocean Tells Us About Ourselves by James Nestor Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art by James Nestor Wim Hof Method James Nestor’s website   Episode Highlights [04:03] How James Got into Breathing  James is a journalist who once covered a world freediving championship in Greece. Despite being a swimmer and bodysurfer himself, he was astounded by participants who can dive 300 to 400 feet in a single breath. Upon returning to San Francisco, James decided to write a book about freediving. His research exposed him to the art of breathing and its importance to wellbeing. He learned that improper breathing is damaging to the body. [10:29] The Physiology of Breathing Contrary to widespread knowledge, it’s possible to have too much oxygen and not enough carbon dioxide in the body. However, it is essential to have a balance between these two. Many standard breathing methods deplete carbon dioxide levels, leading to lower oxygen saturation and more unsatisfactory performance. A study found that by holding their breath comfortably for 25 seconds, 85% of the athletes will not have a breathing dysfunction. Instead of compensating, learning proper breathing techniques can increase your bodily tolerance for carbon dioxide. Listen to the full episode to learn more about the process of breathing! [19:57] Basic Breathing Techniques Most people breathe faster than the optimal rate without realising that many of their health problems come from their breathing rate. The point of breathing exercises is to acclimate your body to breathe through the nose without thinking about it. Slower breaths while maintaining the same volume of air can increase efficiency by 35%. Transitioning to slower breathing will temporarily reduce performance, but you will eventually see improvements as your body acclimates. [27:11] Nasal Breathing Listen to the full episode for James’ points on running and breathing! Nasal breathing leads up to 20% more oxygen absorption compared to mouth breathing, all else being equal. Nitric oxide is a potent vasodilator that increases blood circulation. Nasal breathing increases nitric oxide concentrations six times more than mouth breathing. Breathing through the nose is more effective in defending your body against viruses than any other form of breathing. [38:36] Why Aren’t Breathing Interventions More Popular? There’s not a lot of money that can come from breathing interventions. Hence, the development of this alternative practice isn’t promoted widely. That said, James believes that alternative medicine isn’t always the answer. Conventional Western medicine is still crucial for many health interventions. [41:38] How Modern Diets Changed the Way We Breathe In antiquity, people always had perfectly straight teeth and larger mouths. The introduction of industrialised food removed the need for a larger jaw. Evolution drove the shrinking of the human jaw, so more people have crooked teeth or impacted wisdom teeth. Smaller oral cavities also made breathing more difficult, and the incidence of upper airway resistance syndrome rose. [44:24] Childhood Feeding Improper oral posture can root from habitually breathing through the mouth. When we were younger, chewing was essential. The introduction of baby food prevented infants from performing the right chewing exercises. Breastfeeding changes the face structure and promotes more efficient breathing. Children need to eat hard foods to develop a proper jaw and airway. [48:20] Oral Exercises Even adults can see improvements in their breathing efficiency by doing basic oral exercises. After a year of oral exercises, James was able to improve his airway size by around 15% to 20%. Palate expanders are an option for people who need them. However, oropharyngeal exercises and myofunctional therapy are easier and more effective methods for improving your breathing. [54:33] Relaxation through Breathing Slow, focused breathing activates the parasympathetic nervous system, leading to greater relaxation. Doing breathing exercises several times a day will immensely help you cope better with stress. Listen to the full episode to learn more about how slow light breathing diaphragmatically stimulates the parasympathetic nervous system and the vagus nerve. [59:14] Hormetic Stress The quickest way to reduce stress is to breathe. It is all about working your respiratory system and working out your stress. James suggests starting with the foundations of nasal breathing, slow breathing and awareness. Similar to exercising at the gym, breathing exercises promote hormetic stress. At moderate amounts, hormetic stress is beneficial to human health. Listen to the full episode to learn more about the Wim Hof Breathing Method!   7 Powerful Quotes from this Episode ‘By mastering this sort of breathing, we can not only dive deep, but we can heat ourselves up, heal ourselves, and do so many other things’. ‘Scientific papers were published about this 115 years ago, showing very clearly that you need a balance of carbon dioxide and oxygen to operate effectively and efficiently. When we breathe too much, we can offload too much CO2, which actually makes it harder for us to bring oxygen throughout the body’. ‘That slower breath with that pressure allows us to gain 20% more oxygen breathing through our nose than equivalent breaths through our mouth.” ‘I think our bodies are the most powerful pharmacists on the planet and that’s been shown, so why not try to focus on your body and health a little bit’? ‘By having a smaller mouth, you have less room to breathe. And this is one of the main reasons so many of us struggle to breathe’. ‘Start slow, start low. See what your body can naturally do. If after six months, you’re like, ‘I’m still not, this isn’t working’, go see someone and take it from there’.  ‘I talked to dozens and dozens of people who have fundamentally transformed themselves through nothing more than breathing. I want to mention it again. I’m not promising this is going to work for everyone, for everything, but it needs to be considered as a foundation to health’.   About James James Nestor is a journalist and bestselling author. He has contributed to many newspapers and publications such as The New York Times and Scientific American. His first book, DEEP: Freediving, Renegade Science, and What the Ocean Tells Us about Ourselves, took inspiration from his journalistic coverage of a world freediving championship.  James also authored Breath: The New Science of a Lost Art where he combines thousand-year histories with modern research to shed light on proper breathing. His investigations have revolutionised the conventional understanding of breathing and have helped many people live healthier lives. His other projects include speaking engagements for institutions, radio and television shows, and collaborations for scientific research and communication.  Learn more about James Nestor and his work on diving and breathing by visiting his website.   Enjoyed this Podcast? If you did, be sure to subscribe and share it with your friends! Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, then leave us a review. You can also share this with your family and friends so they can include more amino acids in protein in their diet. Have any questions? You can contact me through email (support@lisatamati.com) or find me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. For more episode updates, visit my website. You may also tune in on Apple Podcasts. To pushing the limits, Lisa   Full Transcript Of The Podcast! Welcome to Pushing the Limits, the show that helps you reach your full potential with your host, Lisa Tamati. Brought to you by lisatamati.com. Lisa Tamati: Well, hi, everyone. Welcome back to Pushing the Limits in this new year. I hope you're enjoying yourself. You've had a good break over the holidays, and I have a fantastic guest today. Wow, this guy is insane. So his name is James Nestor, and he is an author, New York Times best selling author, Wall Street Journal best selling author, London Times New York Times bestselling author of a book called Breathe. So it's all about breathing. You might think, how the hell do you write a book on breathing. But I tell you, this is going to be a really exciting interview, and you're going to learn so much that you wish you'd been taught years ago. He's also the author of Deep, another best selling book that he did on freediving. And he's a filmmaker and science writer for many of the science magazines. Now in this book Breathe. He explores the million year long history of how the human species has lost the ability to breathe properly. And why we're suffering from a laundry list of maladies from snoring to sleep apnea to asthma to autoimmune diseases and allergies. And in this, on this journey in this book, which was absolutely fascinating. He travels the world and spends a decade in the attempt to figure out what went wrong and how do—we fix it. And, you know, the links that the sky week two—for his research has just absolutely next level. I really enjoyed doing this interview with James. He's an incredible person. And just so very, very interesting. So I hope you enjoy the show. Before we head over to speak with James in San Francisco, just like to remind you to do a rating and review if you came for the show. This is a labour of love. And it really really helps the show get out there if you can give us a rating and review, either on iTunes or wherever you're listening to this podcast. Or if you can't work it out, just send me an email with it. And we'll gladly receive those as well. And if you want to reach out to me if you've got any ideas for podcasts, or people that you would like to see on here, or if you have a question, health question, if you want help with health journey, health optimisation, epigenetics, run coaching, that's our day job. That's what we do for a living. And that's what we are passionate about. And that's what we love. So if you're having trouble with a tricky health issue, if you wanting high-performance, if you're wanting to do that next ultramarathon or first run your first five-kilometer race, whatever the case may be, please reach out to us, lisa@lisatamati.com. And you can find all our programs also on that website, as well as this podcast and lots of other goodies. So I hope you enjoy this interview with James Nestor. Over to the show now and thanks for listening. Lisa: Well, hi everyone and welcome back to Pushing the Limits. It's fantastic to have you with me and I am jumping out of my skin for excitement today because I have someone that I've been just so looking forward to interviewing. An amazing author, James Nestor, who is going to be sharing his research and his book, which is really a game-changer. Breathe is the name of the book. And James is coming to us all the way from San Francisco today. So welcome to the show, James. Fabulous to have you. James Nestor: Thank you for having me. Lisa: So James, can you just give us a bit of a background into your—who you are in your background? And how the heck did you end up writing a book about breathing? And why do we need to know about it? James: So I'm a journalist, and I write for science magazines and outdoor magazines. I've been doing that for years and years and years. And I think the real jumping off point for me was when I was sent out to go to Greece to write about the world freediving championship. And even though I've spent my life near the ocean, I'm a surfer. I'm a swimmer and body surfer, all that, I had never really spent too much time under the ocean. And I had never seen anyone freedive before because the water is very cloudy here on the West Coast. There's not a lot of places to do this. So I remember going out in this boat, it was the first day of the competition and just watching these people take a single breath and go down 300, 400 feet on a single dive there. And come back four minutes later and—just it was like they we're answering emails just like. Okay, next up, back for lunch. It was what the hell is going on here? I had understood that this was absolutely impossible. And yet here these people vary sizes, various forms - big, tall, large, small, all that - that had mastered this thing. And I got to be friends with a few of them who took me into this other side of freediving outside of the competitive freediving, which I just thought was pretty insane. And they allowed me to understand free diving as this meditation. And of course, breathing is at the core of this meditation. And by mastering the sort of breathing we can not only dive deep, but we can heat ourselves up, heal ourselves and do so many other things. Lisa: Wow, so that was the jumping off point in, for those interested. Yeah, I've taken an interest in freediving too. And my gosh, what they do is pretty next level, insane. I don't think I'm crazy enough to really have a go at it. To be fair, but absolute admiration for what they do and how they do it, in—the everything that they have to overcome. But okay, so if we just jump in now, the into—how does we know? What can we learn from these free divers and other traditional breathing techniques? And why is it important for the everyday person to be understanding how the breath works in the physiology, which we'll get into which I found absolutely mind blowing and thought, why is nobody told me this? And why did—why does, why should someone listening to this actually be interested? James: So the free divers told me that the only way to hold your breath is to master this art of breathing. And it was also something interesting to see all of these different people. And they all had these enormous chest, they had expanded their lung capacity. Some people double the average adult lung capacity by forcing. Well, they were not born this way. So it made me think about how malleable the body is depending on what inputs we give to it. And so I got back to San Francisco, and I wrote another book that featured freedivers. But in the back of my mind, that book was called Deep. And it looks at the human connection from the very surface to the very bottom of the deepest sea, magnetoreception echolocation all that. But as I was researching that book, and writing, I just kept finding more and more information about breathing, about how so many of us in the West, including in the medical world view breathing as just this binary thing. As long as we were breathing, we're healthy, and we're alive. When you're not breathing, that's bad, your dad or you have a serious problem. But that is such the wrong way of looking at this. It's like saying, as long as you are eating, you're getting food, you're getting nutrients. But it's what you eat. That's so important. And it's how you breathe. That's so important. So I was lucky enough to then meet a bunch of leading experts in this field who have been studying this stuff for decades, even publishing in these weird scientific journals. No one's been reading their stuff. I thought, why the hell hasn't anyone told me this? Like, I'm middle aged, I've been mouth breathing, through most of my life. I've been whenever I was working out or surfing, I'm just thinking I'm getting more oxygen in. And this is so damaging to the body, and no one was talking about it.    So this book took me so long, because I couldn't understand why some researchers on one side were saying how you breathe has no effect on your asthma, has no effect on your body, on your brain. And this other side was saying they're 100% wrong. Here's all the data. So it was going through all that and weeding through all that that took me a while. But I think at the end, I finally found the truth behind all of this. Lisa: He certainly did. And the book is such a deep deep dive like you know, and I've been talking to some friends about you know, reading this book and, and everything. How can you have a whole book on breathing? And I'm like, you have no idea. You could probably write 10 books on breathing and it's so powerful. And as an athlete I've, you know, I was just saying to you prior to the recording, I've spent my entire life as an asthmatic since I was two years old. I have a very small lung capacity. I have a low VO2 max, despite that I decided to become an endurance athlete. Go figure that one out, got some mental issues, obviously. But I'd spent my entire athletic career breathing in my mouth in places like Death Valley, in the Sahara, in the Himalayas, and altitude, and you know, freezing cold temperatures. And all of the problems that that brought and so this book has been a life-changing thing for me personally. Unfortunately, I'm no longer a competitive athlete bagger. You know, like I didn't get the memo back then. But now training hundreds of athletes. Wow, I can start to influence them and change them and are already started to adopt some of the information into the programs that we're using. So super powerful information, and in really important. So, okay, now let's go into a little bit—the physiology of breath because we sort of think if I take deep breaths, and breathe often in faster, if I'm running, then I'm going along. I'm getting as much oxygen as my body can get. Why is that completely upside down? James: That is upside down. And it's so counterintuitive. It took me months to get my head around this, even though we've known these scientific papers were published on this 115 years ago, showing very clearly that you need a balance of carbon dioxide and oxygen to operate effectively and efficiently. And when we breathe too much, we can offload too much CO2, which actually makes it harder for us to bring oxygen throughout the body. If you don't believe me right now, you can breathe 20 or 30, heavy breaths. You might feel some tingling in your fingers or some lightness in your head. This is not from an increase of oxygen to these areas, but a decrease of circulation. Lisa: Wow. James: Because you need a balance of CO2, for circulation, for vasodilation. This is—it is integral to providing blood and nutrients to our body. And for some reason, as Westerners we just think more is better, more is always more. That is not the way of the proper way of thinking about this when you talk about breathing, you want to breathe as closely in line with your metabolic needs as possible. Why would you? It's like being in a car. Why would you be revving the motor? Everywhere you're going, I had a stop sign just revving the motor. When you were over breathing. That's exactly what you're doing. You're causing a bunch of wear and tear on your heart on your vascular system. And you're sending stress in those—to your mind. People like you are very strong willed and we'll fight through it right you'll just keep going you're in pain, I don't care. I'm gonna finish this race. I'm gonna make it happen. Compensation is different than health. Oh, and and so this is why so many professional athletes, they'll be really good for a few years. The minute they stopped, diabetes, chronic health problems. Our body.. Lisa: Thyroid, diabetes, metabolic problems. Yeah, like no hell, you've spent your life being a disciplined athlete. I'm struggling with hypothyroid, for example, and high blood sugars. And I'm lean and I'm, you know, it's like what the heck. Like, wow. And I hope through the breathing in some of the other stuff that I'm doing that I can remove some of the damage because you're because it is so counterintuitive. So that carbon dioxide there was a real mind bender for me, because I've always understood carbon dioxide as a negative thing. You know, we want to breathe it out. We want to get it out of the system. That's the end result of you know, what do you call it the electron chain in the ATP production, and we're producing this carbon dioxide, we're gonna give it out. And that's not the case, isn't it? It's a controller of the acidity in the blood is something that we want to train, our chemoreceptors need to be trained in order to be able to tolerate more carbon dioxide. So this just dive into the winds a little bit on the actual physiology that I've just touched on the air so that we can actually get to the bottom of this carbon dioxide, your mind bender, really. James: So when we take breath in, it enters into our lungs and the bronchioles, to these little air sacs, the alveoli, and from there it goes through various layers and enters into red blood cells. The vast majority of oxygen enters into red blood. So there's some free floating but not much. So in those red blood cells or something like 270 million hemoglobin, and so then it enters into this hemoglobin. And it's, you know, it's funny, why would when we're working out, why would we get more oxygen in one area than another? So CO2 is the signaling molecule. So where oxygen is going to detach is an areas where there is CO2, and oxygen isn't going to attach otherwise. So you need this healthy balance of CO2, we have 100 times more CO2 in our bodies than we do oxygen.  Lisa: Wow. James: Okay, so this is this very carefully controlled system that needs to be in balance, and our bodies are so wonderful at keeping us alive. So when we become imbalanced, all these other things happen. If we become too acidic, we'll learn to breathe more, right? We’ll trigger that if we become too alkaline, our kidneys will release bicarbonate. So all of this is incredible and so important. Compensation, different than health. We can compensate for a very long time. Imagine you can live maybe 40 years eating garbage crap food eating Fritos. That doesn't mean you're healthy. No offense to Fritos. Delicious, absolutely delicious. But, you know, it doesn't mean you're healthy. So… Lisa: Yeah. James: ...the reason why you have to understand this balance of CO2 and oxygen is because you can't just understand CO2 as a waste product. It's still considered this a medical school. Yeah, you don't need it. But people who study this know that is—it's absolutely essential to have that balance, you don't want too much. But you don't want too little. You want your body to be able to operate at peak efficiency without having to go through all those compensations, right? To keep you there.   Lisa: Exactly. So when we breathe in, we.. When I say, we don't hold our breath, and I'm holding my breath for a long time, as long as I can. And then that's horrible urgency that comes up and you start to—your diaphragm starts to make that sort of hiccup thing. And this is actually the chemoreceptors in the brain, which is the area that is what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, that is measuring the CO2 levels more than anything in the blood, not the oxygen levels. And it's so, the CO2 going up, and then the body's going “Oop, time to breathe,” and it makes you do that, you know, hiccup thing in order to make you breathe. And when I'm doing my breathing exercises that I've learned from you, I let that reflex go for a while while I'm training my body and to be able to accept more carbon dioxide. And that will help me be a better athlete with a bit of a EO2 mix hopefully, and make me faster and so on. But it's the CO2, that's actually pushing the oxygen into the cells as well, isn't it? And that was another, a mind bender as well. James: It's an exchange. So you can think about those red blood cells as this cruise ship, right? So and they're full of oxygen. And they cruise to areas where there are other passengers that want to get on this is CO2, and they exchange. The CO2 hops on as oxygen hops off. And this is just how it works. So that need to breathe, you're 100% right. A lot of people think, gonna exhale, hold my breath. “Oh, I don't have enough oxygen, I need to breathe.” No, that is dictated by rising carbon dioxide levels. And so many of us are so sensitised to CO2, that we can't hold our breath more than 10 seconds without going. But they've done a study with athletes. And they found that to very comfortably hold your breath, over 25 seconds, 89% of those athletes will not have any breathing dysfunction. So this is a great practice to do. And this is why this is used in so many different breathing techniques for so long. The ancient Chinese were doing breath holds. Pranayama ancient Hindus were doing breath holds for thousands of years—is to exhale softly. And to hold your breath calmly. You don't want to be struggling and feeling your diaphragm moving. Just calmly, when you feel a little teaspoon of discomfort. You breathe and you calculate how long that is. Don't look at this as a competition. I know that there's a lot of people out here. No, you can compete later. So what you want to do is to get your CO2 tolerance higher, because by having a higher amount of CO2, which is really a normal amount of CO2, your body can operate better. You will have more circulation. Oxygen will detach more easily. And when you're doing endurance sports, this is what you want. You don't want to use energy for things you don't have to use energy for. You want to be burning clean and tight. And that's what this allows you to do. Lisa: This is about efficiency isn't and maybe you're saying that the average person is breathing 12 to 18 times a minute, on average. And ideally, we should be around the five and a half or six times a minute would be ideal. “So breathe light to breathe right” was one of the catchphrases that stuck in my head. And that's my trigger for all over breathing again. And so it's actually slowing down our breathing rate and not increasing the volume so much as diaphragmatic breathing. So using the deep, lower lobes of our lungs to actually get the breath end and doing it a lot slower. And why are we all you know, doing it 12 to 18 times a minute and overbreathing? Which is yeah. It is... James: Sometimes a lot more than that. I mean, I've talked to clinicians who see people breathing 25, 30 times a minute just and they've been doing this for decades, and their bodies are just destroyed. So it's, these things become a habit after a while and our body gets used to that cycle of compensation. And we start acknowledging this is normal. We started thinking having migraines is normal, having cold toes and cold fingers all the time is normal, being exhausted all the time is normal. None of this is normal. And especially if you look at modern populations of what's considered normal now, I mean, what 15% of Americans have diabetes, 25% have sleep apnea, 10% have autoimmune like, what is going on here? And that this is just accepted that, “Oh, just you know, I've my diabetes...” Lisa: Aging. James: ...my drugs. So anyway, I'm getting off track here. You when this becomes a habit, again, compensation different than health. And a wonderful practice to try is to breathe in at a rate of about five to six seconds, and breathe out at around that same rate. I put in the book 5.5 yet, but then people have been writing me, saying, 'I'm a half a second off'. Oh, my God. So now I'm saying anything in that range. And if that's too difficult for you, slow it down, go three seconds in three seconds out. It's perfect. This is not a competition. This is about acclimating your body. So we can't breed this way all the time, that's going to be impossible. But whenever you become aware of your breath, that you're breathing too much, you can bring your breath back by breathing this way and recondition it. And the point of all these exercises is not to think about them. You want to do them often enough, that you're always breathing through your notes that you're always breathing lightly and slowly. And that range of diaphragmatic movement, especially for athletes, I cannot tell you how essential this is, when you're breathing too much. Okay, here's what's happening, you're breathing up into your chest, which is extremely inefficient. There's more blood further down in your lungs, so can participate much more, much better in gas exchange. But you're also doing something else. You're taking air into your mouth, your throat, your bronchi, bronchioles, none of which participate in gas exchange yet do you bring it in? You go? I'm using maybe 50% of that breath. If you slow down with the same volume, six laters a minute, to about six or seven breaths, right? Per minute, your efficiency goes up 35%. 35%. And if you're not gonna make a difference, you're running for five hour days. You're crazy. If you look at Kipchoge, check out how he's breathing, you know, an hour and a half, extremely light. He's completely in control, you can hardly see his chest. And he is in the zone. Sanya Richards-Ross was the top female sprinter in the world for 10 years, check out how she's breathing through the nose in control, destroying everyone else and all of our competitors. So it takes us a while, which is why people don't, you're going to see a decrease in performance when you switch. Okay, guaranteed that it's gonna to go down. If you stick with it, it's gonna go up. I don't want to say that it's true for everyone. But I would say 95% and the breathing experts, the elite trainers I've worked with have told me 100% of the people they've converted, their performance goes up and the recovery is cut by half. Lisa: Wow. And then I mean, who the hell doesn't want that as an athlete, you're fighting for 1%. So when we're talking, no such mess of possible changes that don't rely on your genetics and don't rely on you know, things that you can't control anyway. And like, for me, transitioning has been hard. I'll be honest, because I was completely congested all the time. And that's why I'd heard that nasal breathing because that’s the next thing we'll discuss that nasal breathing was very, very important for a number of reasons. I didn't really understand why. But I was like, well, I can't breathe through my nose is just blocked the whole time. And I don't have a show on hell of doing that. So well. Well, I'll carry on doing my breathing. And then when I learn how to decongest my nose and sometimes it will take me two or three breaths. And the first time the first couple of weeks when I was doing it, my nose was running and I wasn't getting anywhere and I'm like, this is not working. But I pushed through that phase. And now I can run for like a team case at a fairly good pace, completely nasal breathing, if I do the warm up phase properly, if I go out the door and just try and do it straight out, the gate won't work, I need to do the walking, holding my breath, and get that cleared first, and then I can get into my training. And then I can hold it in the first 10 minutes, I'm still finding it a little bit like I want to breathe with my mouth, but that instinct is there. But I'm slowly training myself into that system. And saying, I can actually, you know, I can actually run for a good hour just through my nose without any problems. And I've also not done the high-intensity. So I backed off the super high-intensity, because I know I'm automatically going to open my mouth when it gets to that. So while I'm in this transition phase, I'm not doing anything beyond that sort of aerobic capacity level. And I think I need this just to adapt. So these are huge types of people listening out there, if you are congested, and you think, well, this is all well and good guys, but there's no way in hell that I'm going to be able to breathe through my nose. Think again, there is, it's just a matter of being taught how to do it. And that's a pretty simple couple of exercises that were, you know, that's in the book. It can really, really help us if you persevere through it. And then I expect to see improvements and my VO2 max and all the rest of it. Now, let's talk a little bit about the reason why it has to be nasal breathing. And so it's not just about breathing slowly. We've talked about breathing slowly, we've talked about diaphragmatic breathing. We've talked about CO2 and the role that we don't want our CO2 levels too low in the body. Let's talk now about the whole. Where was I going James? Help me out. I've just hit a.. James: You wanted to talk about breathing, you want to talk about fitness, you want to talk about nasal breathing. Lisa: I hit a moment. So nasal. So we want to understand the physiology of the nose and why the nose is what we want to be breathing with rather than our mouth. James: So I want to mention a few things. A few more things about running. This may seem overkill, but just a couple of points. So what I've heard from various instructors, Patrick McKeown is a world renowned breathing therapist, top got Brian Mackenzie the same thing. Never work out harder than you can breathe correctly. So if you're entering the zone, your mouth is open, slow it down and build your base and work up from there. Sometimes it took Dr John Douillard took him six months to fully acclimate. But once you get there, you are going to find a power in yourself that you did not know existed. And this has been proven time and time again. When Carl Style was working with the Yale running team and the US Olympic running team. He said that these people suffered way more sicknesses, respiratory problems, asthma, COPD than anyone else. And he said, “They push through it because they're competitors. They're gonna push through it.” A complete mess. So there has to be a slight shift and thinking of like, you have to accept your performance is going to go down for a little bit. Right now's a good time to do that. We're still in a pandemic. So you know, once things open up, you'll be kicking everyone's ass. And that's not a bad thing. But just know that this is a wave. This is a process. So the reason why you want to be doing this, we'll get to nasal breathing now is I will bring on my guest. He's been waiting over here patiently. Steve, for the people who aren't watching this, I'm holding up a cross section of a human skull. You can see the nose right here. When you breathe through the nose, you're forcing air through this labyrinth. It's so similar to a seashell. It's called the nasal concha. So seashells have their shells this way to keep invaders out to keep pathogens out. Right? Our noses serve the exact same function. This is our first line of defence. So when we breathe through our nose, we're heating air which is important in cold climates where humidifying it, which is very important in dry climates. We're pressurizing it, we're conditioning it, we're removing particulate which is important, if you live in a city or basically anywhere else now. We're helping to fight more viruses. So there will be a smaller viral load breathing through the nose. And we condition this air so by the time it enters our lungs, it is properly conditioned to be more easily absorbed. When you're breathing through your mouth. You can consider the lungs as an external organ. Yeah, because they're just exposed to everything in your environment. So not only that, not only is this the most effective filter we have is it forces us to breathe more slowly. This is a self-regulating device. Yeah. How long did it take me to take that breath took a while? How long does this take? Yeah, nothing. So that's slower breath with that pressure allows us to gain 20% more oxygen breathing through our nose than equivalent breaths through our mouth. Again, if you think this is gonna make no difference to, you you're absolutely crazy. And this is simple science. You know, this isn't controversial stuff. Lisa: No, this is simple science, but not well, knowing until your book came out and became a worldwide best selling book. Thank goodness because this stuff needs to be out there. And I'm called silly because I'm deep in the waves and in researching all the time. And by hacking and the latest longevity, and the goodness knows what I'm just always into the latest and greatest. And I'm constantly surprised at how you know that some fantastic information never sees the light of day, because of the systems that are in place, or traditions and laws and stuff. And it's like, wow, we have to get this information out there. And this is one of those times when I'm thinking thank goodness, someone has put this into a book that's readable for people to understand the science without having to do such a deep dive themselves. And I think that that's really important. And that nasal, you know, nasal breathing. Also, it does another thing that I found really, really interesting was all about the nitric oxide. Can you explain what nitric oxide is and what it does in the body and why the nose is so important in that regard? James: Nitric oxide is this amazing molecule that our bodies produce that plays a central role in vasodilation. Having more nitric oxide will decrease your chances of having a stroke, will decrease your chances of having a heart attack. It will increase circulation to your brain. I mean, I can go on and on here. It's no coincidence that the drugs Sildenafil also known as viagra, guess what it does, it releases nitric oxide in your body. That's how it cleans. Yeah, we get six times. One study showed that we get six times more nitric oxide breathing through our nose than we do through our mouth. And if we hum we get 15 times more nitric oxide. So this has an incredible effect on the body and especially now there are 11 clinical trials right now where they're giving patients with COVID. Guess what? Nitric oxide. And apparently, according to Nobel Laureate, Louis Ignarro, oh, it's working wonderfully well in these. Studies are going to be out soon. I heard something. My brother in law's an ER doctor, my father in law's a pulmonologist. So we talk all about this stuff. And the vast majority of the people suffering the worst symptoms of COVID are people with chronic inflammation. And as an opposite, very observational study. There are also mouth breathers. Yeah. And this was known 100 years ago, they were saying 75 to 80% of the people with tuberculosis are mouth breathers, chronic mouth breather. So there's been no official study on this just this is just observational stuff. Don't go write me about this, that your nasal breathing got COVID. It can happen. Lisa: Can happen still, we're not saying that.  James: It's to me, but we know that can happen. But we also know something else. That breathing through the nose will help you defend your bodies so much more effectively, against viruses. And this is what Louis Ignarro again, he won a Nobel Prize. So listen to that guy, if you're not gonna listen... Lisa: Yes and I've actually I've heard Dr Ignarro speak a number of times, and I'm hoping I can get him on my podcast to actually just to talk a whole session on nitric oxide and what he discovered, because he he won a prize for discovering this, this gas if you like in the body, because nobody really understood what it was or how it operated. And it is being used for Viagra. And the reason it works for that is that it expands and dilates the blood vessels, but that's what's actually doing it and all parts of our body. And therefore when we're doing this nasal breathing, and we're getting more of that nitric oxide and I mean, a lot of the athletic supplements that you can get now in your corner supplement store are about, you know, drinking beetroot juice or whatever increases your nitric oxide. So this is another way to get at an info for you athletes out there. You want better performance, you know, a lot of my athletes are on beetroot juice and things like that. Just nasal breathing is another way of doing that. You know, so that's a really big piece of the puzzle, I think. James: And those don't work. They certainly work but the key was so much of this just like with a key with oxygen. You don't like, go and get a bunch of oxygen for five minutes, then walk away so I'll fix them. You want to constantly be producing this stuff. So beet juice, you know what we'll work for a short amount of time. But to me, it seems like a much better idea to use something that we're naturally gifted with to use our nose. And to constantly be having a body that can constantly produce a healthy healthy level of nitric oxide. I drink beet juice. I'm a big fan of that, the nitrates and other vegetables can help release more nitric oxide. Great stuff, right? But nasal how often can you be drinking beet juice, you don't want to be drinking that 10 times sugar in it. Lisa: No. There's a lot of sugar in it. James: There’s a lot of sugar in it and you know, occasionally is great, but there's other ways of doing this. And you know, I think our bodies are the most powerful pharmacists on the planet and that's been shown so why not try to focus on your body and health a little bit? Well last thing I want to mention that I just find, is so frustrating here in the US is all this talk of COVID all this talk of you know wear a mask, which I'm a believer in that stay at home. I'm a believer in that. Zero talk about not eating four double cheeseburgers a day.  Lisa: Hey, mean. James: Ola, like getting your health and breathing through your nose. like where's that conversation? Getting vitamin D, getting vitamin C. And so anyway, we've seen what the government's you guys have a much more progressive government, let me tell you, we're so jealous of it. But now we have the whole... Lisa: We’ll be a medical society, though there's nothing. It's not that late. But yeah, and I've had a number of episodes, I've just done a five part series on vitamin C, and intravenous vitamin C, and cancer, and sepsis. And, you know, the whole gamut in the problems there. In this, every single doctor has said to me too, when it comes to COVID, why aren't we building up our immune system so that we don't get people in our ICU on ventilators? You know, so that we don't get to that point, or we have less people and, you know, that just seems like a no brainer to me, but we're still promoting eating crap and drinking crap. And, you know, and not taking into account. It's, yes, I mean, the vaccines and all that, but how about we just take a little bit of self-responsibility we might not have as bad if we do get it. You know, like I've got a mum. I've just written a book called Relentless that my listeners know about and it was about rehabilitating my mum back from an aneurysm four and a half years ago, where she hit massive aneurysm. Hardly any higher function, I was told, like, should never do anything. Again, I spent four and a half years rehabilitating her and she's completely normal. Again, she's driving the car, she's walking, jogging, everything's fine. And this is why I've ended up doing what I do, because I'm very passionate, because none. And I mean, none of this was offered in the standard medical system that we were in. They were great at the surgeries, they were great in the crisis. But when it came to rehabilitation, there was just nothing there, and so I discovered all of these things. And one of the passions I have is just staying one step ahead of here and giving her the next thing now she's 79 years old, I want to keep her healthy. So when COVID threatened us, you know, I've, you know, got over there in the corner, my hyperbaric oxygen chamber, my ozone over the air, and, you know, you name it. I've got it so that if it does come, we prepared as prepared as we can be. And that is a good approach, I think prevention, rather than waiting for the disaster, and then trying to pick up the pieces at the end of the day. You know? James: Yeah, and I just want to be clear, and I know that you're saying the same thing here. There's, doctors in my family that practice Western medicine who've helped people, when I get a car accident, last thing I want is acupuncture. I want to go to the ER and have somebody say, “Sir, I break a bone. I'm not doing pranayama breath work, I'm going to go and get a cast.” But about rehabilitation. This is 100% true, because it costs a lot of money. There's no way a system can support full rehabilitation. And one thing that I've heard from almost every expert in the field, whether it's a professor at a university, or an MD, or a nutritionist, or whatever is they believe, this isn't my view. This is their view. I want to be objective here but they believe that there's a reason people aren't talking about breathing again. It's, there's no money in it. There's a money. Oh, why the US government isn't saying “Don't go to McDonald's today.” That's going to shut the economy down. So the good news about this is people who are interested want to take control of their health. There are now other means of getting information from people who have studied this stuff, people who are into scientific references, who are looking at science in a real objective way. And so I view this thing, hopefully, this is going to be a lesson we can all learn then that we can acknowledge how incredible the human body is, how we become susceptible to illness, and how to better defend ourselves in the future. Lisa: I'm just so on board with all of that. And I think it's our right and this is a problem we do. You know, we love Western medicine, they do some brilliant things. I love naturopathic medicine, I love alternative, complementary, whatever you integrate, or whatever you want to call it.   We've all got deficits, and we've all got blind spots, and every single piece of this. And it's about bringing the whole lot together, and not letting money rule the world. I think is, if we can ever get to that point, that would be fantastic because it is at the moment. And there's a lot of things that are being hindered, like things, simple things like breath work, like stress reduction, like intravenous vitamin C's, like things that don't, nobody can make money at, or hyperbaric oxygen is not going to make millions for anybody. So it's not getting out there, that information is not getting out there. And it needs to be out there. We got I reckon we could talk for days, the job's because we were obviously on the same track. But I wanted to touch on a couple of areas. One was the whole skeletal muscle record of our ancestors and our facial, you know, our whole facial development and why that's part of the problem and the food problem, the mushy food that we eat today. And then remind me to talk briefly about the immune system and all this inveigled the vagus nerve and stuff. So let's start with though, with the skeletal record, and the difference between our ancestors and how we are today. James: So early on in my research, I started hearing these stories about how humans used to have perfectly straight teeth and I don't know if you're like me. I had extractions, braces, headgear, you name it, every single person I knew had the same thing. It was never if it was just went this is what how it was done. At wisdom teeth removed. If you think about how weird that is, you're like, why are we removing teeth? From our mouths? Why are teeth so crooked? Where if you look at any other animal in the wild, they all have perfectly straight teeth. And what I learned was that all of our ancestors, before industrialisation, before farming, any hunter-gatherer all had perfectly straight teeth. So I went to a museum and looked at hundreds of skulls, and they all stared back at me, these perfectly straight teeth. Completely freaked me out. They had these very broad jaws, wide nasal apertures forward, growing powerful faces. So if you have a face that grows this way, and you have a mouth that's wide enough for your teeth, you have a wider airway. Having a smaller mouth, you have less room to breathe. And this is one of the main reasons so many of us struggle to breathe, we have upper airway resistance syndrome, sleep apnea, snoring, and so many other respiratory issues is because there's less room in there. And what happened is this came on, in a blink of an eye with industrialised food in a single generation. People went from having perfectly straight teeth, wider nasal apertures, to having crooked teeth and smaller mouths and a different facial profile. And this has been documented time and time again. Yet I had learned in school, which for me, it was zillion years ago that this was evolution-meant progress we're getting we're always getting younger, you're getting taller, we're getting better, look around the day and ask yourself if that's true, it's complete garbage. And then I went back and looked at the real definition of what evolution means. All it means is change and you can change for the better, or for the worse. And humans, as far as our breathing concern is concerned, are changing very much for the worse. Lisa: Wow. And so we're, I mean, I'm saying I grew up have had so many extractions and teeth completely crooked and a tiny little mouth and all of those sort of problems that you're describing. So what was it that their ancestors did differently? So it was just the food being not we not chewing as much was that basically? Yes, like that's that was a real chain game changer for us when the industrialisation happened and we got mushy food. James: There were many inputs, chewing is the main one. So when you live in an extremely polluted environment, sometimes your nose can get plugged, right? You start breathing through your mouth, that can create respiratory problems, but if you breathe through your mouth long enough, your face grows that way actually changes the skeletal picture of your face. So that's another input improper oral posture is what that is called, but it's for when you're younger chewing is so essential and it starts with breastfeeding. There were no Gerbers food. I don't know if you have that out there, but there were no, like, soft foods. Just a few 100 years ago. So if you think about it, so now we're eating the soft processed foods right out of the gates. We're going, we're being fed on a bottle, soft processes. All of our mouths are too small and too crooked. So this chewing stress starts at birth. They've done various studies looking at kids who were bottle fed versus those who are breastfed. When you're breastfed, your face pulls out your mouth, gets wider because it takes a lot of stress to do. Two hours a day, like every day, every two hours, you're doing it. And literally, and I've talked to parents who had twins, I just talked to a lady yesterday who bottle fed one did love not want to be breast fed breast fed the other. They look totally different. One has crooked teeth, one has autoimmune problems. One has swollen tonsils, the other doesn’t. So that is anecdotal. But there's been studies in the 1930s they did tons of studies into this. So I'm a dude, I'm not going to sit here and tell everyone they breastfed people for that is not my point yet. But some people just can't. But I think it's important to acknowledge that the physics of how this works. And after that, if you have bottle fed a kid that's fine. But they need to start eating hard foods baby led weaning, this is what needs to happen to develop that proper jaw to develop that proper airway. And even if you don't do that, if you then go to soft foods, and your kid is two to three years old, and it's snoring or sleep apnea, which is so common now it's so tragic, because that leads to neurological disorders, ADHD, again. This isn't crazy New Agey. This was at Stanford, there's 50 years of research on this from the top institution here. So there are direct links between those things, but luckily we have technologies now that can help restore to the mouth to the way it was supposed to have been before industrialisation. They actually widened the mouth of these small little kids, and open their airways, and it drastically improves their health. Lisa: Today so it's palatal expanders that you you tried out and actually isn't even as an adult was you developed I remember it was at eight coins worth of new bone in your in your face and in a year or something crazy so we can still so if you've missed about if you've not received your kids or your you didn't get that yourself or whatever, it's not all over there is things that you can start doing even starting just to chew now like that to eat some carrots and whatever you know, whatever hard foods you can find to actually use those that powerful joy in order to make it stronger. It's just like every other muscle in the body isn't it? And when we're mouth breathing to our remember you saying or the muscles here get lax and flattered and just like any other muscle that we're not training, if we're if we're going to mouth open all night and we're you know, then we're causing those muscles to be lax and over time that that leads into sleep apnea and things as well can do. So yeah, so this is something that we can practically get a hold on now even if it's a bit late for you and I think. James: Yeah, I talked to my mum I was bottle fed after like six months my mum was like six months is a long time when I was growing up bottle fed soft foods industrialized crap my off intel I was you know 25 and it discovered these things called vegetables. But you know, so so this isn't pointing the finger at anyone we were sold this story by our governments that said you shouldn't eat mostly refined grains, eat your Cheerios, eat your bread, or crema wheat eat your oatmeal like that this is eat your sugar, that's good. Eat your chocolate milk, you know, so we have knowledge now we know the folly of our ways. But the one thing that was inspiring to me this is easier to do, when you've got a developing kid quickly growing it, you can set the foundation and their face will grow around like their faces grow different. It's just, it's beautiful to see how the body forms to its inputs. So I, you know, youth was several decades ago for me, for far too long. I was a child of the 70s and 80s. Right? Yeah, we thought I thought once you're in middle age, you're completely screwed. What can you do, but that is just a convenient excuse for people to say, “Oh, it's genetics. Oh, I inherited this.”  Like genes turn on but they can also be turned off and so I wanted to see what how I could improve my airway health in a year and so I took a CAT scan, and I did proper oral posture, you're 100% right when, when you're just eating soft, mushy food in your mouth is open. All of those tissues can grow really flabby just like anywhere else on your body. But if you exercise them if you exercise the jaw, the strongest muscle in the body, you know, for its size, the tongue, extremely powerful muscle, you exercise these things, they get tone like anything else. And this can help open your airways. So this is just an anecdote, this was my experience, it'll probably be different for other people. But I did a number of these things. And a year later to the week, I took another CAT scan, and the results were analysed by the Mayo Clinic, which is one of the top hospitals here. And they found that I increased my airway size about 15 to 20%. In some areas, and I can't tell you just as a personal story, it has absolutely transformed my life because I can breathe so much more easily through my nose. At night. I am silent. I didn't snore before but I was knowing that my wife would always tell me, totally silent now. And of course I am because I have a larger airway, things are more toned air can enter more easily. Lisa: Is it easy to find palace expanders are these like any a couple of dentists in the world doing this sort of stuff? James: Not everyone needs palatal expansion. I've gotten so many hundreds of emails of people, you know how we are, it's like, what's the latest thing, oh, there's a new pill, there's a new device. Oh, I get it, that's gonna solve all my problems. So they can really help people who need it just like surgical interventions. For people who have severe problems in their nose are a huge help. They're transformative. What I found is a lot of people don't need that. And what I firmly believe is start slow, start low, see what your body can naturally do. If after six months, you're like, ‘I'm still not this isn't working,’ go see someone you know, and take it from there. But palatal expansion absolutely works for people who really need it, but you would be amazed by just doing something called oral-pharyngeal exercises. There was a study out in chest, which is one of the top medical journals, you know, they found this significantly cut down on snoring, not lightly, significantly. And all it is, is exercising the tongue, roof of the mouth, proper oral posture, just working out this area. Toning it, of course, that's gonna help you if this is flabby and hasn't been to.. Lisa: The gym for your mouth. James: That's what it is. And I view that world, there's a whole separate school called myofunctional therapy that is helping people do this, which is so beneficial. They focus mostly on kids, but they also work with adults. And this is what they do. They are the instructors, the gym instructors, for your mouth and for your airwaves. And I strongly recommend people looking that up, there's a bunch of instructionals for free on YouTube, you can go that route as well. Lisa: Oh, brilliant, we'll link to some of those on your website. And, you know, I get people those resources. It's just, it's just amazing and fascinating stuff. And who would have thought this conversation would go so deep and wide, I wanted to just finish up then with talking about the immune system and stress reduction and vagus nerves and all of us area too, because, you know, me included in this and most people are dealing with, you know, massive levels of stress, and breathing can I've, since I've read your book, and I was really, you know, quite aware of how to bring my stress levels down and movements and the importance of you know, yoga and all those sorts of things. I've had that piece of the puzzle sort of dialed in, if you like, but the breathing exercises and actually calming the nervous system down within minutes. Now I can fall asleep in seconds. And you know, what seconds is a bit exaggerated but minutes, and I can I can take myself from being in this emotionally, my god and i tend to be like that because I'm like, you know, busy, busy, busy. And then go, “Hey, I'm spinning out of control. I've lost control of my breath. And I hear myself and I pick myself up on it now.”  And I go and do two minutes of breathing exercises. That's you know if that's all I can afford to do, and I can switch into parasympathetic now, that's been gold. Can you just explain why the heck does doing this slow light breathing diaphragmatically stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system and the vagus nerve from what's actually going on there? James: Sure. So what people can do now is take a hand and you can place it on your heart. And you can breathe into rate of about three seconds and try to breathe out to about six to eight seconds, just whatever's comfortable. Now, breathe in again. 123 and exhale. And as you're exhaling out very softly, you're going to feel your heart rate, get lower and lower. And lower. So when you are exhaling, you're stimulating that parasympathetic side of your nervous system, our breath can actually hack our nervous system function. And by exhaling more, and taking these long and fluid breaths, you can trigger all of those wonderful things that happen when you're parasympathetic. You reduce inflammation very quickly. You send signals to your brain to calm down. You actually change how your brain is operating the connectivity before the between the prefrontal cortex and the emotional centers of the brain changes when you slow your breathing.  So throughout the day, if you want to remain balanced, you take those soft and easy light, low breaths, to account of whatever's comfortable, three, four, even up to six, and six out. But if at some times you feel “My stress levels are starting to increase. I'm feeling my mind slip. I'm making rash decisions.” Start extending the exhale. An exercise I like to do is inhale to about four, exhale to six, you don't have to do it that long. Inhale, two, three, exhale to five, whatever's comfortable, as long as that exhale is longer, you're gonna feel your body slowing down. And if you don't believe me, all you need to do is get your heart rate variability, monitor your pulse oximeter and take a look at what happens after 30 seconds of slow, focused breathing. And you will see this transformation occur in your body, if that can happen in a couple minutes, what's going to happen to you after a couple of hours of taking control of your breathing, or a couple of days, or a couple of months.  I'll tell you what's going to happen. I talked to dozens and dozens of people who have fundamentally transformed themselves through nothing more than breathing. I want to mention again, I'm not promising this is going to work for everyone for everything. But it needs to be considered as a foundation to health. Lisa: And you need to stick at it for a little bit. And you know, I do my HIV monitoring every morning before I get out of bed and do my breath holding exercises and look at my boat score from Patrick McKeown. And you know, all that sort of stuff. Before I even put my feet on the floor, and I yeah, I can control my heart rate to a degree just through my birth weight. So I know this works. And I know that when I do a longer exhale from that, and compared to the inhale, immediately, I just feel a bit more calmer, and a bit more in control. And it's reminding myself and this is the trick because we, when we're in the middle of work, and we've got meetings and phones are going and emails are coming at us, and it's like the “Lions are chasing me.” And it's been trying to remember to breathe in. Bring yourself down and calm yourself down. And just take that couple of minutes many times a day, you know, depending on how stressful Your life is. And in doing that on a regular basis, over time will have massive implications. Because we're talking here, your digestion. You digest food better if you're in a parasympathetic state versus a sympathetic, your immune system. Again, coming back to COVID in that conversation, you're going to be improved, you know, your hormone balance. Yeah, just to fix everything, the way your, the brain waves, all of these things are going to be affected by your stress levels. And what is th

  Episode Transcript James: Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the Web3 Marketing debate show. I am your co-host James Banks. Joseph: And I'm your co-host Joseph Chesterton. James: And today we've got another fire starter of a debate. Landing page software. What is better? Third party standalone landing page software I.e. ClickFunnels, leadpages. Or is building landing pages in your existing content management system such as WordPress the better way to go? Which one is better? Before we kick things off, I'll be taking the, do your landing pages in your existing websites content management system side of the debate and Joseph will be backing the why you should use a third party system to do this and keep it separated out. So, without further ado, let's kick things off. Now, Joseph, I'll let you start. Out of building landing pages in your existing CMS versus building them in a dedicated landing page software. It's the Leadpages, ClickFunnels, so on and so forth. Why is building it in a dedicated landing page software tool better than just building it in your existing website system? Joseph: Well, it all comes down to the software being built for purpose. Take WordPress, for example. Its aim is to be able to blog and create website pages for your website. Creating landing pages that are dedicated for purpose and specifically around converting leads into your business. Then, using landing page software that's built for that is far easier to do. Just the time and cost associated with that. It's far less having things pre-built for you with layouts that have been tried and tested many times over. Not only that, but then being able to track and see what actually is working with the metrics available through the landing page software and then being able to improve on those landing pages that you build. It simply is night and day different to something like doing it yourself in WordPress or any CMS. So that's why I think the landing page software is a better option. What's your opinion, James? James: Well, you mentioned that it's going to save you time, and it's going to be easier. It's not. Because here's the thing. You got to learn another a completely new system. A completely new page builder to then create all these landing pages when, if you've already been able to put a site together or you're familiar with your existing websites content management system. Let's just say, for example, it's WordPress. Most people use it. It's the most popular one. If you can pull together a page in WordPress, then you can create a landing page in it as well. You just have to change the header and the footer and then adjust the body of it to match the intent of what you need it to achieve. You don't have to go and learn another system. You don't have to pay for another tool. You have to do any complex domain mapping between your existing domain on your existing site to a new one. You have to worry about any of that stuff. You just create a new page and subtract a couple of elements. That's the easier way to do it. And you don't have to worry about another system to manage its simpler. Joseph: It sounds too good to be true, James. I'll take your word for it. But at the end of day, which one performs better? Landing page software or WordPress? James: Okay, let's back up. If you're using landing pages, and if your goal and objective is to use landing pages as part of your digital marketing strategy. Then we can safely assume that conversions and the objective to convert your audience and your traffic into some type of conversion goal. Whether be leads whether that be sales, whether that be opt-ins or whatever it might be, is the primary objective. So why should that stop at the leading page? Your entire website should be fast. It should be performant. It should be optimised for conversions as opposed to, Okay, let's just have, like, a brochure Ware website. And let's just make the landing pages conversion optimised. No absolutely not. As we know, the pathway for conversion in the modern era is so multifaceted, so multi disciplinary. It's rare that someone arrives on a landing page and then just converts right there. No, they'll generally check out your website. They'll go across all aspects then check out your business. Any potential page on your site could be a point of conversion. Hence, why when we talk about which one performs better? Okay, yes so fit for purpose. Landing pages do generally perform well but why shouldn't your whole website perform just as well as your landing page if you make your whole entire website perform well then your landing pages built inside your website will also perform well. Then you get the net benefit of having everything perform better, not just one or two pages on your site. Joseph: It's a good point you make about having a website that works for your business, but we're talking specifically about landing pages here, So let's take away the design, let's take away the speed performance and let's talk about why landing pages are better. It's because you can do more things in a easier way and you don't have to potentially know how to code it. Landing page software. It's all about getting landing pages quickly and being able to utilise what the landing pages that have been built or can be built to be able to market to your audience. So the software itself all the major players include things that are easy for you to see the performance, like the metrics. On top of that, you could do things like maybe split testing and being able to do tests to ensure that what your pages are set up to do, will do what you intend. The landing page software companies build these landing pages based on best practises. When you're building landing pages, you can utilise these templates, and the guesswork is taken out of the equation for you because they built it for you. And then you just have to slap in your logo, slap on the images and Bob's your uncle, your away and ready to go. It's as easy as that, whereas with WordPress, you won't get those metrics and things that landing page software will provide you. So marketers and people that are in these platforms day in and day out will love it because you can, easily set up landing pages with drag and drop software and you're away. So that's why landing page software performs better, in my honest opinion. James: Well, I have to disagree with you Joe because the problem is you mention yourself when you're just slapping a logo and slapping some images and hit the go live button. This is the problem because there's a completely foreign system to what your websites built in, even if you load in all of your design, all of your typography, your colour palette. It's a different code base. You will get brand and design inconsistencies with what your main website looks like, which then makes your brand and business look not very professional when you have a website over here that looks one way and another website landing page over here that looks like another way. As long as you've done anything correctly and you build it within your existing website, you'd have to go and reprogram all of your styles and everything is already there, so you have a much more consistent look and feel. Plus, it also saves you time because you don't have to go and redo all these settings again. But ultimately in summary. At the end of the day, these are all tools. These are all tools that are used to solve a job. In some cases, it may actually be simpler and easier and better to create the leading pages in a third party tool. At Web3 we prefer to build our landing pages in our existing client websites where we have designed and developed them from the ground up. That way we make sure the actual core website is fast. It's free of code errors. It's optimised properly, and the design and how it's all put together is optimised for engagement and conversions. That's why when we create landing pages in our existing WordPress theme that we create for our businesses, we know that they're going to work because we make sure the foundation's are done right. This is what gives us a superior performance. And the businesses can save time because they're not having to work between multiple, different business systems to try and achieve the same goal. This is how we do it. But ultimately, at the end of the day, It's what makes sense for your business and how your business has been set up online. If you need any help and advice on understanding what's going to work best for your business, then as always, feel free to reach out to us. Go to web3.com.au and get in contact with us today? So that is another episode of the Web3 marketing debate show. I hope you learnt something new and we will talk to you all real soon. Find out more about this episode and join the conversation at https://web3.com.au/better-landing-pages.

James: This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth through Value-Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Ashley Wilson from Philadelphia. Ashley is a specialist in Asset and Construction Management; she is an asset manager and also taking care of construction as well. So it's going to be a very interesting discussion. She has a GP in 350 units and also have invested as an LP and working on deals on her own as well, which is awesome.  Hey Ashley, welcome to the show.  Ashley:  Thank you so much for having me.  James: Good. Have you been on podcasts before?  Ashley: Yes.  James: Okay. A lot of podcasts?  Ashley: Yes.  James: Okay, good. So it looks like you're going through that podcast circuit, I guess, right? Ashley: Yes. I have been on the podcast circuit for a little while now, yeah. James: Good. So a lot of times when I bring guests into my podcast show, I usually bring operators, which are people who buy deals, who does the raising money, who does the asset management as well and who also do the rest of the investor relationship as well. A lot of times some people do not do third party property management or in house property management. They are not [inaudible 01:18] integrated, but some are. You are special because now you are an asset manager, right? And you also do construction. Can you tell us a bit more about your role as an asset manager and construction manager? Ashley: Absolutely. So what I like to tell people about operations on multifamily is operations are very important in a down market, they are the most important and what I like to specialize in is everything from once a property goes under contract, even prior to that looking at the numbers, making sure that we account for how things actually happen, as opposed to just accepted statistics in multifamily in terms of underwriting, because every market is different and the way in which you operate a property can be vastly different from market to market.  So being very well versed on what things work within a specific market accounting forward within underwriting, then verifying it during the due diligence process and then ultimately operating according to the business plan, or if the business plan needs to be adjusted to make better value for the property and an ultimately a better return for the investors is what I enjoy doing the most, the property, the real estate component of multifamily is what excites me. I know some people really enjoy networking with investors and going to dinners and doing all of those things while that can be very exciting, it's really exciting to me, the property and how much money I can squeeze out of a property. That's what I enjoy doing. James: Got it. I'm an asset manager as well so I really appreciate what you're saying because you can go around and raise money from people. You do a lot of advertising marketing too to get people to give money to invest and a lot of people give up on that, right? But once you close on the deal, executing the business plan is the harder part, right? It's not closing the deal. It's easy to close the deal, especially pre-COVID and market-speak. There's so much money chasing multifamily. There's so much Bootcamp and so many people who want to invest right, everybody has this formal effect, right? But you're right, I mean, executing the business plan is hard, right?  And I've seen a lot of people who were very motivated before closing because they tell all the fun story but after closing, they're very quiet or they don't really talk about their performance on their property, right? Nobody really declares about their property performance because it's hard to really do post closing execution, right?  So let's talk about when do you come? I mean there's asset management fee and some passive investors, especially new one who comes in, ask me, why are you taking asset management fee, right? Why not an asset manager which is the same as the property manager? Can you differentiate between that? I can add my things and differentiate property management and asset management. Ashley: Yes. So there are a couple of questions there. I think that investors seeking an answer to. The first being the difference between the two positions, property managers and asset managers, a lot of times when you speak to people who own multifamily, they see that a property manager works for an asset manager. I do not see that the same way, I see it as we're a team and we work together and the only way you can achieve your business plan optimally is working in conjunction in partnering. And ultimately the asset manager has a different number one client that they're answering to, they're answering to the investors, the property managers they're answering to the tenants and they're making sure that the property is the best property for that particular tenant, that demographic and if someone doesn't really understand everything that a property manager is doing, a property manager, in my opinion, is comparable to a teacher. They have more things on their plate than they have hours in a day. They are doing marketing; they're doing general service complaint calls, et cetera for the property. So they're managing the current tenant base while also trying to attract a new tenant base and also trying to execute a business plan for the ownership group. It is very difficult to do especially in terms of the metrics, the national metrics for number of property managers per unit; typically it's one inside one outside's per a hundred units. So for example, a hundred unit property would have one interior, a property manager, and then one maintenance person on-site for every hundred units you have. That can happen on a property that is a stabilized asset, but a lot of times, especially the properties that I go after their value add assets. So there are things firing on all cylinders because there's deferred maintenance that we're tackling, there are tenants that should not be in the property that was put in the property probably by pre-released ownership so they're really trying to tackle a lot of different things. The asset manager, on the other hand, answers to the investors. The asset manager is the person responsible for protecting your investment, they're responsible for maximizing every single dollar that's placed in that apartment, we want to try to get two times that dollar three times that dollar up, ten times that dollar, that's what we're trying to do, every single investment we make on a property. So what we're doing is we are the added layer of protection. We're looking to make sure that the day to day operations are not only executing that business plan that you have in place but also maximizing the investment. And I say that, and it sounds like a broken record, but truly that is what an asset manager does and there are so many things to make sure that you're doing from vetting contractors, making sure that you're getting the best price on the renovation too. It's very strategic when you're doing renovations, how you should do the renovations, how much you should do, how little you should do, what rents you can charge, what's the absorption rate, what is the market comparables in that market that you can push the rents? There are so many different components, I could probably talk for an hour alone on just different components that I look at even on a daily basis, let alone on a weekly or monthly or quarterly basis. So to me, it's a full-time job and that is why personally I've been able to execute business plans a lot faster than, you know, I've had two properties where I've had to execute a business plan on the first property. It was a two-year business plan with a refi in year three, and I was able to execute it all under budget within a year. So I think that's pretty impressive and then on my most recent property, it was a four-year business plan that after we executed the renovation over four years, then we were at the end of three years, we would refinance in year four and we were able to execute the business plan in actually less than a year and also under budget. So that is the difference between having someone oversee your investment on the asset manager side and work in conjunction with the property management team. I've been very blessed to have an incredible property management team that I work with on these properties. So for us now we have systems in place to make it even easier to execute everything we do. James: Got it. So let me summarize what Ashley just mentioned, right? So asset managers basically approve, execute property budgets. They look at property financial reporting and making sure that budgets are met and at the same time they also have to make sure that you are able to execute what you thought in the beginning, whatever performer and whatever the original sponsor has planned for that and they have to make sure they hit that, but as for the budget as well, right? So do you work any part of it as part of the investor side of it like investor tax document and any other things on the investor portal and all that, or is it all that a sponsor takes care of it and asset managers on the asset? Ashley: Well, I also am a sponsor, I sign on loans, I'm not just doing asset management and I've also brought my own investors in, on deals as well. So in terms of being fully involved, 60 knots of whether or not we execute a cost segregation study, getting the K ones out, getting all the information, I provide all the reports to the investors. I'm the one who creates all the reports for the investors. So really I'm doing soup to nuts and I do it in a very granular fashion. So I'm a full-time real estate investor. I think there are a lot of opportunities for people to get in multifamily while working at W2 and there's a point in which you absolutely need to transition. I don't know how someone could keep up with all the work that you need to do for an asset manager of a larger property. When you are also juggling a W2 on maybe a more stabilized asset you could probably do that, but in terms of the volume, if you want to scale, ultimately what you would be looking to do is to do it full time, which is what I do. So in terms of prepping everything that the investor needs for whether it's preparing their taxes or doing things for the property, I just really make sure that I'm the glue that puts all those pieces together. James:  Got it. So let's go a bit more technical here, right? So you have a plan from the sponsor, right? So when you're working as part of the sponsorship team as well, and now you said, Ashley, you're going to asset manage this, right? And we talk about absorption rate and renovation progress, right? So let's go into each one of those and you say like four to five key indicators that you look at. Can we just quickly summarize that? What are the four to five key indicators that you look on either daily or weekly basis? Ashley: Okay. So first I also wanted to mention that despite how many properties I have, I also consult with other sponsorship groups. What they'll do is they'll bring me in and I will basically audit their property and I will point out all the things that they could improve upon. So there are things that I look at when I'm auditing other sponsors deals and then they're also things that I look at on a daily basis for my property, I can speak to the things that I think probably most people who asset manage. They don't have the time to look at things on a daily basis so they're probably looking at it more on a weekly basis. So I'll share what I look at on a weekly basis because what I look at daily versus what I look at weekly what I look at monthly and quarterly are completely different. So what I look at on a weekly basis is obviously I'm going to look at my traffic, I'm going to look at my occupancy, I'm going to look at move-ins and move-outs, I'm going to look at work orders. How many of those emergency work orders, categorizing the work orders, time of resolution, and then in terms of repeat work orders and or the reviews of the work orders. So in terms of whether or not someone would give the work order a five-star review or one star, those are things I'm looking at. I'm also looking on the traffic side- where's my traffic originating from, my source and what's my conversion rate on those sources. So that way, I know very thoroughly, which traffic sources are working, which traffic sources aren’t. I also look at it on a weekly basis specials within the market to make sure that my property remains competitive. I look at my renewal rate; I look at a lot of different things. I'm trying to see if I'm remembering every single aspect of everything that I look at, but ultimately what I'm trying to do is I'm looking at the property in such a detailed fashion as if I was operating the property with boots on the ground. So that way I can make little adjustments immediately when I see that there's a need, as opposed to waiting until let's say, for example, I've plugged a lot of money into a marketing campaign that I don't see working, three weeks in, I'm going to yank that marketing campaign as opposed to keep it running for six months and lose that investment when I could have plugged it into a resource, it's giving me a higher conversion rate and higher traffic. So that's really the things that I'm looking at. I'm looking at how to influence the people who are coming into the property and how to influence the people to stay at the property. James: Got it. So let's talk about renovation per unit, right? I mean, before you close on the property, I mean, let's say for example, 5,000 per unit, right? And post-closing, how's that 5,000 per unit budget being tracked? How do you know that it's very effective in terms of your rent growth and your annual growth and meeting your business plan? Ashley:  So when I go into a property, I know exactly what I'm going to do to that unit and day one, I pick every single finish that I want for that property. So that's inclusive of if I'm going to change the flooring, I pick out the exact flooring I want, I pick out the paint, I pick out everything and then what I do with my management company is because I'm not located in Texas and my properties are located in Texas, we've implemented systems where we have a tracking system so it initiates what units are available to be renovated and what condition they're in and then we put together a package on what that particular unit needs. So I know to a penny, how much that unit costs to be renovated and then ultimately what I do is then I track the progress of the unit through pictures before pictures storing and after pictures. So I can see the progress of the unit and then I can see what the total cost of the unit, if there are any change orders, typically I don't have change orders unless there is something extremely grave at the property that is unexpected but I've been in construction long enough to know I'm raised by a general contractor who had his own business for over 40 years. I'm very well versed in construction that I know how to negotiate prices, I also have a lot of contacts so I can get prices down pretty well so in terms of verifying afterward, I then confirm the cost for the unit and then I have my own tracking system to ensure that I stay below budget and that's how I've been able to stay below budget on all of my projects. James: So let's go into that process, right? So now you have a unit that you're going to renovate and I presume the property manager is the one that is going to give you the budget on the progression of whatever being spent on that unit. Is that right? Ashley: Well, what I do is I package it. So I know, for example, there are two things in construction. It all comes down to labor and material. I know how much material it's going to cost me and we have a checklist on what that individual unit needs so I already know upfront what the material is going to cost me and then what it comes down to is what the labor is going to cost me and in terms of the price per labor, everyone should know how much it costs to switch out an outlet, how much it costs to switch out a fixture, how much it costs to paint a room. I know all of these numbers. So if someone says to me, okay, this unit costs this much and it's over budget I can then question them and say, why is it over budget? And they'll say because our guys spent three more hours, so why did they spend three more hours on this unit versus another unit? Oh, well there were some issues. Well, you walk that unit in advance, you knew what the unit condition looks like and let's say it's painting, you knew like unless I replaced like a put up a whole new wall or took out a wall and I reframed it like you knew what the estimate was, you knew the square footage of the wall that you were going to paint. We have it priced for rooms. So it's very easy for me to argue, because I know it's such a granular level that I can get the price down and that's how I confirm that I stay on budget is to know all of the prices to that level. James:  So you are assuming that, or maybe you already have a really good crew, which is working as what was planned, right? Otherwise, you're going to always question then why you guys are late because that's another variable, right? You have to schedule, right? I mean, you have your materials of labor cost, but they can take forever to finish one unit. How do you keep track of that one unit renovation? Ashley: So we have, in terms of scheduling, we have certain times in which we release a certain amount of units and then they get them to renovate. I have worked with contractors for years now, across all different types of properties-single-family, multifamily. And if one thing I have learned across along that process is that when you work with someone for the first time, you're not going to give them an entire job, you're going to give them a piece of a job and they're going to have to prove themselves to get the rest of the job. These contractors, when I have large multifamily properties, they want the entire job. So they're going to work very diligently at the beginning and hopefully throughout the entire project, but most likely they're going to work very diligently at the very beginning. So I will give them a little piece of what I need them to do in terms of the grand scope, but I'm not going to give them the whole scope of the project initially when I have no track record with someone. So I'll give them a little piece of the pie at the beginning. If they prove themselves, I'll give them a little piece more. If there are any issues upfront, I just pull that crew and get a new crew immediately. So I minimize my risk of loss and I minimize my risk of loss of time. So it's a loss of time and a loss of dollar amount and honestly, time is also equitable to dollar amount too. So that way I just minimize the risks across both. James: Yep. Well, that's exactly what we do as well. I mean, we usually hire for a few new projects. We hire like two, three crews, and give them a small portion and see who's doing the best and kick out the other two and keep one and keep on giving them the work, which is a good validation of what we do too, right? Thanks for that and how do you work with the property managers onsite? Because you can't be on site, so you need a lot of communication unless the contractor is giving you the data directly to you through some kind of Excel spreadsheet or you're having meetings with them. So you're doing both. Ashley: Yes, both. So first before I got into real estate, I worked in pharmaceuticals, I worked in clinical research and development and I worked on global clinical trials. So I worked on studies all over the world and I had to leverage technology. So my entire professional career, entire working career has always been in a virtual capacity. I had become very well versed on how to work remotely and I've put into play different things to make it very advantageous for me to work remotely by leveraging technology, I've taken that same approach and applied it to multifamily. Before I got into multifamily, I built up a very successful high-end flipping business in the suburbs of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania and I did that whole business while living in Europe. So even though I lived in Europe, I created a flipping company while living back in the States, I've taken the same approach and I've done the same thing in Philadelphia suburbs now back living in the States and my properties are in Texas.  So to be honest with you, it was a lot harder when I was working in Europe, creating the flipping company that I'm faced with today. I already had all of the systems that I built up on the flipping company, and I've just been able to apply them on the multifamily side of things. Unfortunately, there's only an hour time difference as opposed to I had anywhere between a six to nine-hour difference because at one point I was living in Russia. So it's been very easy for me to make that transition. I have never had any single time where I said, oh, I wish I was like right down the street from the property, because the way in which I react and manage would not change by being on the property, you don't need to be physically at the property. Now, do I still go down to the property? Yes. I go down to the properties quarterly to check on the property. Also, I think there's much to be said about the relationship that's built between your onsite team and the ownership group and I think it's really paramount if you want to run a successful business, which multifamily is real estate and business. So I don't discount that, but I definitely think that your operations, as long as you have an excellent team, which we make sure that we always put a really great team in place that you still can be successful.  James: How do you test rent growth based on the rehab? Ashley: In terms of how much I can push the rent prior to completing the project or afterward for absorption? James: For absorption. So basically, there's a certain limit of rent growth based on the rehab that you're doing, right? So how do you test that? How much you can get based on the rehab that you're doing? Ashley: So I'm huge into understanding the market demographics. So what I do is I spend a lot of time researching market comparables. I look at if I was a prospective tenant, what properties would I look at and why, what property would attract me, would I be willing to pay an extra $10 more for property A versus property B? And what are their amenities? We live in an amenity based society right now where people love the bells and whistles that properties provide. They love having a pool, they love having laundry in their unit, they love having like in Texas carports or garages, there are certain amenities that based on the market draw people in and that changes by market. That doesn't mean just because you're in Texas everyone wants a carport, some places they don't care. They're not going to pay extra for, you really need to understand your market very thoroughly and then compete with what that market wants.  If the market is a tech-based market, maybe you should implement thermostats that are able to be controlled with your phone or laundry facilities that are able to be controlled by your phone. If you're not in a tech-based market if you're in maybe a secondary tertiary market, I'm not saying all the secondary tertiary markets, but I'm just saying, if you're not, as close to a major MSA or primary market, they might not be as well versed in technology and they might not see why they would pay extra. It's really about understanding the market, understanding what is renting in a market, what properties have high occupancy, what their rents are at, what their specials are at, what amenities they have, and then trying to compete on that level. I walk the other properties. So when I go tour the area, I always make sure to tour other properties and see what their unit interiors look like, what their exteriors look like. I want to secret shop these properties because I want to understand what a prospective tenant is looking at. I want to understand how they are greeted by their staff. I want to understand if a market is Hispanic speaking, let's say right, and they want someone to greet them in Spanish and they want Texas, TAA contract in Spanish, like a Texas Apartment Association contract in Spanish, these contracts. So they're very little things, the devil's in the details. It's really important that you understand the details of the market. And then you ensure that you are exploiting them on your property. So people want to live on your property. You're providing a better value than competing properties, and that's how he tests it. So then I can see, okay, this property, they're not doing granite counters, but they're getting a hundred dollar rent bump over what we had initially projected. So we don't need to go with granite counters, maybe our business plan had granite counters in it and we don't need to go with granite counters because I know the market will pay a hundred dollars more, even despite the fact that they have granite counters. So some people like to over-improve. It's no different in flipping people do the same thing in flipping all the time. You really need to understand not how little you can put in to get the maximum value, but in a sense, that is true. James: I mean, follow up question to what I asked just now is like, for example, let's say an ownership group, come to you to do consultation and they said, hey, we plan for 3000 per door until rehab, and we want to get $150 a rent bomb and that was all planned and now you are coming in, how do you communicate to them that that $3,000 is not going to get 150 rent bump? I mean, have you been in that kind of situation? Ashley: Yes. I have been in that situation and I've been in this situation where I've been given a business plan and I went down and did due diligence with this ownership group as a consultant and I said, hey, this is not what you want to do. You want to do X, Y, and Z and you're going to get this rent bump instead and it's a better return on your investment. So I think it's very hard to argue with numbers, right? So I understand underwriting very thoroughly and all I have to do is take their underwriting and plug in what I think the business plan should be and show them their underwriting versus mine and ultimately I think that kind of speaks volumes to speak in that language most people who are in multifamily, I would say, are very proficient with mathematics and finance and understanding underwriting, especially if they're the key principle. So if you're dealing with the key principle, the operator you really just have to speak their language and ultimately they should want the best return on their investment. So I've never had anyone disagree with the strategies I've recommended. No one has really taken it negatively at all. James:  If they already closed on the deal and you're coming now, and you think that it's not realistic Ashley: In terms of it not being realistic and squeezing the dollar out that really comes into a lot of people don't bring on a construction manager and I think that's a huge shortcoming on a team. I think that a lot of people try to shortcut that position because they think they can outsource construction management to a third-party vendor. I think third party vendors when you hire a construction manager, they're paid off of the cost of the total construction and, therefore, they are not motivated by the same reasons that your team is motivated, which is to get the highest return for your investment. So ultimately my suggestion to them is that they need to bring on a construction manager if they don't want to bring on me, which I'm not doing this to sell myself, I'm doing this to help people. I find the more people I help, it comes back to me. I never have to worry about it. So I just say to them that I recommend bringing a construction manager who is motivated by the same reasons as them. I get approached often to be compensated as a construction manager from a flat fee and my comment back to them is if I take this, then I'm a hypocrite because what I'm telling you is that you should bring someone on who is motivated by the same reasons. The only way you will find someone who's motivated by the same reasons if they have a piece of the GP equity, because then the more work they do and the more they put into it, the more they get on the back end and that's why you should have someone on the construction management side. And the reason I propose having someone on the construction management side is those are the type of people who not only can negotiate something, but I've used this example in other podcasts where I call it the porch deck scenario or whatever you want to call it. But basically what I'm saying is that you can go to a property and on the property, you have a patio and on that patio, it's a second-floor patio and when you do the due diligence, you have a contractor come in and say, all of these have to be ripped down and they have to be report and the framing has to be redone and you need new posts, a new joyce, and new concrete slap, okay. That is one way to fix it, right? But there's another way to fix it. And that contractor is not doing you just service by telling you that they're doing it because when they do their due diligence, they are not giving you advice based off of a hold period. They're not assuming that you're going to hold the property. They probably don't even know how long you intend to hold the property for whereas a member of your team is going to know, okay, we're trying to access this property in three years or exit this property in five years and really what could happen instead is you share up one of the posts or two of the posts, and you have all these cracks on the patio, but really it's a facade and it could be just resurfaced and it'll get you through maybe five to ten years, but you plan to exit the property in three years so it won't be that big of a deal and it won't be that big of a risk and you're talking the difference between maybe a 3 to $5,000 repair job versus 500.  So by having someone who not only understands the process of construction but understands the different mechanisms in which to solve problems and negotiate. That's what you're looking for in a construction manager. You're not looking for someone who's just good at managing construction and knows a very high level of construction. You're looking for someone who really knows the details of construction because that is the way they provide the most amount of value to you. I mean, there's a reason why I've been able to save hundreds of thousands of dollars on cap X budgets, hundreds of thousands and it's because I know construction like this, and I'm not just saying like, toot my own horn. I'm saying you should seek someone if you're not going to seek me, you should seek someone like me who is going to save you hundreds of thousands of dollars and get the project done faster because at the end of the day if I can hit my business plan after year one versus year three or year four, that's a different exit opportunity or a different other capital event, which is a refi. So that gets your money back to your investors. It could drastically change your returns. It gives you a better track record. I mean, ultimately that is your ACE in the hole, so to speak of executing your property. James: Got it. Yeah. Very interesting. I mean, construction manager or which whoever managing that construction budget it can give us a lot of benefit in terms of reducing costs and exiting the plan as quickly as possible, right? I mean who should be hiring a construction manager at how many units or what kind of project should they be hiring a construction manager? Ashley: I'd like to say that someone on your team should be well versed in construction. If you plan to have any property that is multiunit even on a duplex or quite small multifamily, you want to make sure that you are either connected with someone or know someone, because the example that I like to always say to anyone who has ever owned a house, if you own one house, a single-family residence, right? And you've owned it for a year; I don't know anyone who can tell me they've owned a single-family residence for a year without needing some sort of work on that house, something. So when you extrapolate that across a hundred plus units across a three to five-plus year hold, you are magnifying, the need for someone of that skill set.  So maybe on the smaller properties, it's easy to like outsource it but when you get to larger properties and especially when you're taking in investors, I think it becomes more important that you safeguard that person's investment. That's why I think it's really important. It's an added layer of protection for people, whether its college funds for their kids, retirement money, generational wealth, it doesn't matter the reason you want to protect their investment. I forgot your second part of that question. James: Well, the second part is like I'm missing that second part as well, but let's go to the next question because that was a long answer, but I have a follow up question to you. I mean, in terms of the most valuable value add, right in multifamily, I mean, you have done quite a number of construction projects on multifamily. What do you think is the most valuable value add for high ROI? Ashley: Before I got into multifamily, I used to think that the interiors were the most important part of the value add, because I thought that where someone lives, where they sleep at night, where they're raising their family I was like, okay, that makes the most amount of sense, but the more I'm in multifamily and just in real estate in general, I am more of an opposite opinion, which I think the exterior matters way more than the interior and I see that across multiple markets, I think if you were asking me for a specific market, what's the best ROI. That might be a different answer, but in terms of just a general blanket statement, I think people are really concerned of the impression that they give off. And I can tell you that I see market after market, where the exteriors are stunning and the interiors are horrific, and they have the highest occupancy and they're able to collect the highest rent bumps in the market and then alternatively, I've seen beautiful interiors, but the exteriors are really dated and those are typically the ones that are maybe a little bit more challenging, but they are definitely not competing with the other properties and I think people don't tend to look to do the exterior because the exterior costs more and it's a huge gamble and they don't see the added value but ultimately if you focus on the exterior, you impact the entire property. If you focus on the interior, you're only impacting one unit at a time. So the bump in ROI is only when you complete an individual unit whereas bringing people on the property, to begin with, can be sometimes the hardest part. That's why even on single-family, they always say the exterior matters more than the interior, getting someone to visit that property, getting someone to tour it, they want to buy it. It's all about the facade. It's all about this illusion of the lifestyle that someone's living. James: Maybe it's social proof, I guess, right? You live in a nice house too. You can show it to others, I guess, right? That's my apartment, looks really nice, but who cares about the inside, I guess, right? And I've seen a lot of times owners who have been doing this very long time. When they buy a deal, they just do exterior and they say interior somebody else can do it and they sell it quickly after they do the exterior. I mean, that's a very interesting perspective that you're able to get high occupancy. You may not get a high rent bomb, but you may get high occupancy and stable demographic if you have a nice exterior, but the rent bomb comes from the inside, I guess, right? Interiors as well so I think the valuable side is more on the exterior side because that brings in people, right?  Ashley: Absolutely.  James: Got it. So let's go to your personal side of it. I mean, as part of your venture into single-family and multifamily do you have a proud moment that you can never forget? One proud moment that is going to be living with you throughout your life. Ashley: I'm really just proud of the people I work with and I partner with. I have gone through some really challenging things with apartments and when I talk with other people, when I talk to owners and operators, who've been in multifamily for 10 plus years, they haven't even gone through half the things that I have gone through. And in the moment I'm like, Oh my God, what do I do? And a bit frustrated. But I think that experience has propelled me to the position that I'm in today and the fact that I've been through a fire, I've been through a gas leak and a line where it's a replaced an entire line, I've had to replace the entire sewer line from the building out to the street, I've been through multiple plumbing leaks, I've been through roofs coming up, I've been through incidences with the police being involved, I've been through a whole new rebuild of an apartment and a whole host of other things- depleting occupancy to 60% and then building it up to hopefully over 90, in less than a year is another thing I'm going to be really proud about and I'm just proud of the people that I work with. I'm really proud of the fact that we take a team approach, we're never pointing fingers and I also like to think of it if I had this same opportunity to mastermind with these same people, how excited I would be. So just because I'm the one who's actually living in the moment of what we're talking about in the quote-unquote mastermind, I should just think about it from a different perspective. Think about it as I'm having such a great opportunity to learn from the best people in the business and people who are really supportive. I think that opportunity is something I will never forget for the rest of my life, that I've had this amazing opportunity to connect with people and to learn from people and to help other people. It's just been something that I'm really excited about and the other thing I'm excited about is something that I do on all of my properties is I really connect with the community. I'm not into changing a property; I'm into changing a community. That is my goal on every single property that I'm a part of is to have an impact on the overall community, to whether it's by partnering with local nonprofits or school systems or helping provide food or gifts to children at holidays really it's important to me that you can be successful at business a lot of different ways, but to be successful and help someone's life is much more rewarding. So I really get a lot of joy out of creating change in a community, along with helping my investors either build or preserve their wealth for whatever reason they were doing it for. So I just really enjoy helping people. James:  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we are all about helping people. We like to improve the community and really, we have a lot of initiatives that we do in our properties- we give school backpacks when they go back to school, we do many libraries follow communities. So we do a lot of things for our communities. I mean during COVID-19, we have a lot of people who lost their job and don't have food, we usually buy food for them, right? I mean, that's what you and I think the same, I guess, right? I mean, you can make money in many ways, right? But helping people, kind of come with you to the grave, right? So awesome, Ashley. So why don't you tell our audience about how to get hold of you and how to get in touch with you? Ashley: Absolutely. You can follow me on badashinvestor.com on the website or badashinvestor on Instagram, my website badashinvestor.com. It actually links to all of my other companies. So if you're interested in learning about multifamily, I have a link there. My multifamily company is Bar down Investments. So it's very easy. All the traffic just goes through badashinvestor.com. James: Oh, that's a nice catchy name. Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show.  Ashley: Thank you so much for having me.  James: Absolutely. Thank you. Bye.

James:  Hi, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Ryan Gibson from Spartan Investment Group. It's an investment group that focuses a lot on Self-storage. They have almost 4,000 units. They have a lot of units in DFW area and a few other States. I think Ryan's going to talk about in a short while, and they recently started to [00:32unclear] in a mobile home parks, which we'll touch upon in a short while. Hey Ryan, welcome to the show. Ryan: Thanks, James, for having me. It's fun to get on your show. It's great. James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So why not you tell about yourself and your company, things that I've missed out? Ryan: Yeah, so we are based in Golden, Colorado, and we buy existing and develop self-storage properties. And we do all of our properties and projects through syndication. So we raised capital from private investors and we go out and buy storages that we can buy and get existing cashflow on. And then we can eventually either expand them or just improve operations to make additional income. We also build self-storage from the ground up and we do a little bit of RV park investing as well, but storage is the primary focus. So, you know, previously, we were land developers and built condos and flipped houses and focused on storage mostly just because of the recession resistancy, you know, during downtimes. And when we were first looking at the industry, that really is what you know, attracted us to jump into the business. Was the, you know, kind of how it performed during the last two recessions. James: Got it, got it. Yeah. I mean, I did a lot of research of different asset classes. I wrote it in my book as well. Like how many asset class, six asset class for the past 15 years and just on my own, this is not from Marcus and Millichap or this is not from CoStar.  I looked at all the asset class and was looking at all the past 15 years report, which that's a report called Integra Realty Resources. That's the report that all the commissioner pays us a report to, that's the organization. And I was looking at self-storage and multifamily and all that. I was surprised to see that self-storage did do well the past 15 years, even during the downturn. I know at the beginning, you know, 15 years back, they didn't really allocate a specific asset class for it, but they did talk about it. And in general, I didn't see any downturn, even though every other asset class goes up and down. So that's very interesting. And why do you think is that? Ryan: Because it relies on life events and life events never stop happening. No, I'm serious. You get divorced, typically, stuff goes in storage. You renovate your house, stuff goes into storage. In times of good times, stuff goes into storage and times and the bad time, stuff goes into storage. When you get downsized, when you move, when your job relocates, when there's a disruption in the market that triggers self-storage events. And added onto that, businesses use it because not everybody can park their work truck in their HOA driveway, if they're in a covenant restricted community and not everybody can have all their utilities and supplies in their house. And so, you know, simpliest way to say it, you know, for an extra 50 bucks a month, imagine having a whole other room in your house. And that's really been a big driver for demand and self-storage.  We like it because unlike other asset classes, when a customer comes in, we have a lien against all of their stuff. So if they don't pay, we can auction that off for a profit. So, you know, the revenue loss is much lower for you know, the potential when a tenant doesn't pay. With COVID and everything, there was still a rental rate, great increases. We still had high occupancy. We still can host auctions and have people move out if they don't pay. We held back on that in a couple of properties and a couple of markets, but for the most part, you know, we didn't have the government restrictions that a lot of other asset classes had on that kind of stuff. James: Got it. Well, I mean, I'm sure the audience is thinking why not James jump on self-storage. So but let me tell you why I didn't, you can always debate this. So one thing I didn't jump on self-storage at that time. I mean, of course, for me, focus is very important. I mean, every asset class has so many nuances in it. I mean, it's not easy, even though self-storage is like four walls and there's nothing in it, but there's a difficulty in finding the deal and difficulty in executing the business plan and turn around and, you know, disposition and all that. So, I mean, but I didn't do it because at that time there was not much of nonrecourse loan available, I think, unless you go really low on the leverage. So how is that right now? Ryan: You can get a non-recourse right now on ground-up construction James: On ground-up construction. Okay. Got it. What about on the... Ryan: Oh, and of course you know, that would be rare in our industry. Of course, on buying existing self-storage properties, non-recourse is widely available. James: Got it. Okay. So now it's available right now, at what leverage level? Ryan: It just depends. I think we just tied up a deal that around 70 to 75% non-recourse institutional loan. So, you know, it just depends on the lender. Depends on the deal. Depends on the play. James: Oh yeah. I had a friend who was like 85 years old. He's a broker, but he's a very healthy guy. And he said he started multifamily and moved on to storage and he owns a lot of storage unit and I was calling him and he said, maybe at that time, he said, yeah, it's hard to find non-recourse loans. The other challenge in storage is, you know, I mean, anybody can build a new self-storage development in front of your storage unit. It's very easy to build Ryan: Maybe. Yeah. So, you could say that as a general statement, that wouldn't apply everywhere. So there's a lot of moratoriums on storage. There is a lot of restrictions. Some communities don't have zoning for it. Some cities quite frankly, would not allow you to use it at all. So, you know, it just depends on where you are. Some jurisdictions it's, Oh yeah, come build it. No problem at all. So you just need, you know, it just depends on the market. You know, we have markets where there's no zoning and we could build whatever we wanted and there are markets where it's taken us 40 years to get a permit. So it really just depends. And then there are some markets where you get your permit and then they slap a moratorium on there and you can't build your storage anymore. That's happened out here in Washington and a few places.  So you really got to pay attention. And, you know, and I think really if someone was like, what's the one thing that I could take away from talking to a storage operator? It's the market study. It really comes down to: do you have the demand and is there the supply of people and demand essentially in the market to fill up your property or execute your business plan? It's huge. You know, someone might say, is storage a good play? I don't know, make up a city, Austin, Texas and I will say, well, generally, no, it's not, it's actually a terrible market, no offense, but it might be good on one side of the town and catastrophic on the other side. It's a three-mile business so it's like whatever's happening around in that immediate micro-market is really what it comes down to. So some markets are generally better, some markets are generally worse, but at the end of the day, it's right in that five, 10 minute drive time of the property. In the market study, that makes the difference. James: So, all your details that you're telling me right now, that's why I say there are so much of nuances in any asset class that outsiders may not know. I mean, it's easy to say, you know, it's easy to build but there's so much of a market research knowledge that, you know, only the operators who are specialized in it knows about it. So, and I do have a lot of respect for every asset class operators. There are definitely people who are really good at that. So let's walk through a deal in self-storage.  So not in terms of deal underwriting, but let's look at the demographic of that storage. Let's say you found land in a city. Walk us through the steps you would take to say whether this is a good site for a self-storage facility? Ryan: So a couple of things. The first thing I would look at is what's the population. So I would drop in on the facility, we have data and maps that will show us the drive times. And then based on those drive times, we'd get the population within the drive times of the property. And then we would look at saturation levels. James: And what are the drive times? Minutes? Ryan: Yeah, four minutes. I think we use eight minutes and 15 minutes. Think of it this way. If you're in an urban core, you're not going to drive 15 minutes across town, you're going to drive eight minutes so that there's relevancy to where you are in the market. But what we look at is, you know, we'll look at what are the comparable rent comps to what our subject facility is charged. So, you know, we might be getting $15 a square foot on the average but it's important to know kind of what type of facilities those are: three-story glass, Class A facilities, are they first-generation roll-up metal buildings, you know, big difference. Is it non-climate controlled is it climate controlled and in that market, is it a hot market, like a warm climate that likes self-storage to be climate controlled? Or is it a market that prefers drive-up or, you know, climate control would be overkill and people would be unwilling to pay the extra money for that.  So we look at price per square foot, you know, probably just like multifamily. And then, for Spartan, we look at the ability to add onto that property, you know, can we expand it and what is the existing dirt that's there? What is it? Is it flat gravel? Are there stormwater requirements, setbacks, easements restrictions, how usable is that land, and how much would it take to get the land pad ready? Cause we're developers. I mean, we take properties and develop them into bigger... James: What about zoning? Ryan: Zoning is important. That's kind of a little bit further down on the checklist. The top thing is demand. Cause you know, you could have, Oh, this is a zone for self-storage. And of course, everybody knew that. And then everybody built, a bunch of storage is there and there's no demand. James: But is it easy to change as zoning from, let's say in multifamily to self-storage?  Ryan: Ah, that's a loaded question.  James: Maybe not multifamily. I know residential has a lot of high priority in terms of city development. Let's say, commercial office building, commercial land to self-storage. Ryan: I mean, it depends. I know you don't like the word, it depends, but it depends. So like if you are looking in a market where, you know, we entitled the self-storage project in a city that had no zoning for storage. So everything was a conditional use permit. Everything was a public hearing. The public had come in, the city had to make a recommendation to a hearing examiner. Huge process. We've taken a residential land and rezoned it into commercial so we could build self-storage. We had to go in front of the board of county commissioners. We had to go in front of, you know, there had to be room for public comment. There was opposition, but we were successful and got the land entitled, but every jurisdiction is just a little bit different. We've bought properties that are zoned for storage and we've gotten the entitlements and they can take anywhere from two to six months to get it,  it's a building permit, you know, depending on how fast you're pushing and assuming no closures in the city and things like that. It just runs the gamut. You know, as I said, I have colleagues in the industry that have bought property, they got the entitlements. So yeah, you can build storage here. And then the city puts a moratorium on storage and now they can't build anything. So they bought this land, they got the entitlements, they've spent all this money, now they can't even build it.  James: How do you prevent that kind of thing from happening? Ryan: You don't. James: Because you've already bought the land.  Ryan: I mean, you could negotiate the contract to close upon building permits, but then you've got to find a willing seller and you know, of course, that's always a negotiation.  James: It's too messy, I guess. Ryan: But yeah, when you develop, I mean, it can be riskier and there's a potential for a bigger return but you also introduce a lot more risks. So yeah. I mean, is it easy to do? It can be, and it can be very difficult to the point of being impossible so it really just depends.  James: So when you guys raised the money from your investors, have you already done that, let's say for a [13:57unclear]  project. Have you already done that part or are you are still looking at that entitlement? Ryan: Yeah, we've really learned our lessons through the year. So you know, we bought a storage property and when the rezone of the land from, you know, so you have kind of a couple of different phases of development when you're doing like the paperwork to get it ready to go vertical. So the last thing you get is their building permit. So your building permit is pretty straight down the fairway; that is meeting building codes, getting your building permit, not a lot of risk in that - a risk, but there's not a lot of risks. But the phase just before that might be your entitlement so that you can actually do what you want to do, or might even be some type of site plan development where the city has to approve your site plan but you don't necessarily have your drawings done for the buildings they've just approved. Okay. Building here, building here, building here, this is your height. This is your step back. This is how much square footage you're going to deliver and a site plan approval. And then you have the zoning that might be before that. And it might already be zoned that that might be your first step. You know, do I meet the zoning if I don't, I might have to rezone that could take years. So, you know, we just kind of look at the projects and negotiate with the seller to buy the property. You know, when it hit a point where we're comfortable with closing on the land, and then we negotiate the purchase and sales agreement as such, and then we do the raise in accordance with how we feel our comfort level to be. Because we don't want to raise the money until we know we can do what we want to do. And you know, we've really refined our processes for that over the years to know that, Hey, we can close. And we've gotten better at negotiating. Like how can you expect me to buy this land and I don't even know I can do what I want do with it? If it's a hot market, you know, make a decision; you either want it, or you don't. If it's a property that's been sitting on the market for a year, you can come up with some pretty creative ways to keep the property tied up while you go through that process. James: So how many percents of these 4,000 units were developed versus how many were bought from....? Ryan: 25% James: 25% newly developed. Okay. Are you guys more trending towards development rather than buying? Ryan: That's a great question. I would probably say we're buying more than we are developing right now for no reason other than our development pipeline is full enough. Development is expensive and development requires a lot of cash and you don't want too many of them going on at one time. So we have two very large, about $22 million right now with development. Actually, no, we probably have about $30 million in development right now and that's about our comfort level. That's our spend for 2020 for development and we really don't want to get much past that. We also only develop in the states that we live in so Washington and Colorado. Adding onto a property is not a big deal, but we don't like to do ground-up development where we go through the whole process if we live out of state, because inevitably if you want to get things done, you gotta be down at the county, down at the city hall, down at the office, all the time. You're going down there all the time. Oh, you want this? Okay. No problem. James: Otherwise, it's going to just take forever to get a project done. Ryan: And who wants to fly an hour and a half somewhere to drop off a piece of paper and then fly back? I mean, it's just not efficient. So we just like to be in town.  I can't tell you how many times I've gone down there to, you know, shake the trees and get progress. James: Yeah. I've done a small land development beside my apartment. We were converting it. We were combining the adjacent plot of land into the apartment. And that itself was a lot of work already. But the city was supportive and it went through well by just the amount of paperwork, the amount of bureaucratic process that you have to go through. So, absolutely. What about a demographic? I mean, we talked about demographics. How do you say that this particular submarket is a good demographic for a good self-storage business? Ryan: We like at least 1% growth. We like to see trending growth. We like to see 50,000 income. We like to see saturation levels like a seven square foot per utilization for storage. James: How do you get that data? Seven square feet per utilization? Ryan: We have Radius Plus and we use a couple of different programs. Radius and there's one other program that James: So Radius is a software for self-storage investors? Ryan: Yes. James: Okay. For them to see the demand, I guess. Ryan: If you gave me an address, within 20 minutes, I could tell you what's the drive time around it. I could tell you the demographics. I could tell you the demand. I could tell you all the permits in the pipeline. So that's another thing. This is great. I can tell you everybody who's building, everybody who's applied, who's canceled, who is coming. And then of course we do our boots on the ground research where we go knock on doors and go to the city and ask them like, Oh, Hey, you know, is anybody else? Oh yeah, John, you know, he was over here last week. You know, that doesn't show up on record but the intent. And then you go talk to John and you say, Hey, you're really going to do this because we're thinking about doing it too. And we've got into situations like that and you know, either we've given up or they give up or whatever, and we just move on to a different market if the market can't supply all that additional. James: So does the self-storage purchase involves stringent requirements or stringent terms like what multi-families like day one, hard money, you know, very tight on inspection, do due diligence process? Ryan: It's extremely competitive. And it might be as competitive or more competitive as multifamily. Because when people think of storage, they're like, Oh, I've never really heard of that. I don't know what that is. And then they do multifamily and they're like multifamily is really hard. You know, there's always people doing it and Oh my God, there's so much competition. Maybe I'll go try storage because it'll be less competitive. And then they go over to storage and they're like, Oh, there's a lot of people that do this. But what the difference is there are so many multifamily properties in the United States. Self-storage, you can't even hold a candle to the wind. I mean there are 50,000 facilities total in the entire United States. So yeah, when you're talking about competition, if you're looking at a property that's a million dollars or less, no problem. You can go bid on it as a mom and pop.  When you go a million to maybe 6 million that you can reposition or that, you know, show some signs of a mom and pop operations, you're competing against the best of them. You know, the all-cash, close in 30 days, 60 days, whatever it might be. But generally what we do is we do about 10% earnest money deposit...sorry, not 10%. On a $6 million facility, we might put up anywhere from 25 to 50K. And that doesn't go hard until due diligence is completed and signed off on. James: Oh, okay. So that's not bad. It's not like day one hard money, like what's happening in multifamily, right? Ryan: No. And if we were in that space, we wouldn't play that game. So yeah, whether you think it or not, you're competing with yourself at that point. You're worried about losing that money. I mean, we have a 100% contract-to-close ratio, so everything that we've put under contract we've purchased. I mean, we had a bank pull out three days before closing, we went and raised a private loan. We did our own deal. So we've done everything to really help get the deal closed and we've got that reputation to close. And I think that people value our relationship a lot more than they do necessarily how much earnest money we put up. And we've had a broker bring us a lot of deals and just keeps bringing us deals because we make it real simple on them. You know, it's a very simple process with us. We get everything on the table. We are very transparent and as you know, in multifamily that'll go a long way. Any business, right? James: Yeah. That's true. That's true. Yeah. I mean, brokers, love people who are easy to deal with. Because you know, this is just multimillion-dollar deals and you do not want to have a tough person to work with when you're going to such a big transaction. So at a very high level, what are the value add that you usually do in self-storage? Ryan: Cameras for security, rental rate increases. James: So what, you put a camera and you get higher rental rate or it's just...? Ryan: People walk in and they want to feel secure. So our target customer is a 70-year-old woman, that's who rents our properties. So when they walk to your property, is it dark, are there cameras, is it secure? Does it feel like the fence is going to fall over? So we take the properties, we'll put in a new fence, we'll put in new cameras, we'll paint all the doors, we'll replace doors, we'll rehab the office, we'll put in notary services, we'll put in ice and vending machines.  James: Why do you need a notary service in a self-storage facility?  Ryan: Convenience. So we like to be a shop of convenience. So if somebody has got an Etsy, Amazon, they have a home-based business and they can come to our storage facility, they can drop their FedEx/UPS deliveries off at one of our properties. They can get their items notarized. They can ship, they can store. We even have a car wash at one of our properties. So, we try to be a place of convenience for people. Not that we were going to make any money on it. It's just a place where people can go and know that I rent my Uhaul truck to move my goods somewhere. At your property, I can notarize my documents, I can store my belongings, I can do a lot of different things to transact and do my business obligations. And so what we try to be kind of a helpful facility. Not all of our facility does that because not every facility even has an office. But the ones that do, you know, we sell retail. We start, you know, people pay cash, we get rid of cash payments and we go to as many automated payments as possible. We enforce the lease. You know, a lot of these facilities we take over, tenants might not even be on adequate leases. So without being on an adequate lease, you don't have an adequate lien against their belongings. You can't do an auction.  James: Have you guys done auctions? Ryan: All the time. James:  It's like Storage Wars on TV, right?  Ryan: Yeah. Yeah.  James: That really happens? Ryan: Yeah. The semantics are true or the actual process is true, but the way that it's carried out is not true. So nobody goes in person, you know, there are some old school places that still kind of do that, but we do them online. So you can go to selfstorageauctions.net, you can register. And then in your neighborhood, there could be a storage auction and you get alerted like, Oh, Hey, this unit is going up for auction. You can kind of log into your account and see, Oh, what's in there. James: All right. I can see all our audience and listeners are doing that right now. I didn't even know that. What was the website? Ryan: I think it's selfstorageauctions.net. And so as a company, what we do is we say, you know, that the storage auctions is revenue producing or whatever. They're not really revenue-producing. They're basically just to get you to get out and get a new customer in. Like we clear out the, you know, and it's the threat of losing your stuff, right? If you don't pay, you lose your stuff. James: So it's like an eviction process, I guess.  Ryan: Right.  James: Except the government can put the moratorium like what they did in multifamily right now. Ryan: The government hasn't touched us. So usually within 30 to 60 days, if you're not...so let's say, your rent is due today. If you haven't been paid in five days, you get a late fee and your unit gets locked automatically. So the gate code that lets you into our properties, the revenue management system will automatically turn the gate off.  James: Really? [26:40crosstalk]  Ryan: We over-lock your unit. You can't even get into your unit.  James: You don't pay your rent and after five days, it locks by itself? Ryan: Just like that. And then we'll over-lock you. So we'll put a red lock on your unit as well. Some of our properties will have the smart locks where it'll lock behind the door so you can't get in, you can't get into your stuff. So if you don't pay after five days, you're automatically locked out. So we liked that. We don't have to really manage that too hard. I mean, there's, you know, we have property managers are onsite staff that deals with that, but the gate code, that's automatic. And then once you pay it, we'll let you back in. But if you don't pay, you're locked out. So now you don't have access to your stuff and after 30 days we do our notices, our legal notices and then, we can take pictures of your property, do our publications and then it goes on this website and then people can buy your stuff.  And then you know, any earned income from that auction goes directly to us first, to recoup the costs of whatever the tenant owed us and then any costs of legal fees associated with it. And then anything that's left over after all of our money has been recouped, goes to the tenant, you know, cause they gotta be compensated for their stuff. So, we get paid first and then, but most importantly, we get our unit back and in multifamily or residential, they might trash the place. They're gonna do whatever they do. In storage, I mean, you can try to trash the place, but I mean, it's a box. And you know, we just sweep it out. They moved their stuff out and they're gone. And then, you know, for us, we just get our unit back and we let our customers know when they book, you know, Hey, sign up for our online auctions. You know, so they can bid on stuff and they can also know that, Hey, we do online auctions.  So a lot of places we take over, I mean, the delinquencies are a mess when we take over and that's a way to increase value. So we took over property last year, for example. And I just heard from our management that, you know, auctions were like, I mean, there were people that were 180 days delinquent and the manager just wasn't collecting on the units, they just weren't enforcing the rules. So we'll come in and we'll just follow the rules. You know, your lease says this, if you don't pay with this, you go to auction, you know, and then we make money on late fees. And some facilities that we take over don't charge late fees. I mean, if you don't pay on time, you should get charged a late fee. So there's a lot of different things we can do. You know, and plus we'll repaint, we'll redo the doors. Some doors of the old cabinet doors, you know, to open up the lock, the storage locker, we'll put the roll-up doors on them. We'll improve the lighting, we'll redo the asphalt, whatever it might be, we just get it nicer so that the customer feels safe and secure and they feel like they're getting good value for their money.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. All right. Why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you and your company?  Ryan: Yeah, sure. So my email is Ryan@spartan-investors.com. Our website is spartan-investors.com.  James: Awesome. Thanks for coming in and adding tons of value to our listeners and audience. Thank you.  Ryan: Yeah, you're welcome. It was nice meeting you, by the way.    

James: Hey, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Raj Tekchandani from the Boston area. Raj is a co-sponsor/KPGP in 650 units across Georgia, Florida, Kansas City, and Texas. Hey Raj, welcome to the show Raj: Thanks, James. Thank you for having me James:  Good. I'm happy to have you here because I want to talk about technology. You are a technology guy turned into a multifamily investor, right? Raj:  Absolutely, I can speak technology all day long James: Yeah, absolutely. So I want to make sure I give you an opportunity to explain some things that I missed out. So why don't you tell us about your story? How did you get started and how did you end up being a multifamily investor? Raj:  Sure, I will do that. So hi guys, I've been in technology for most of my career, I did Undergrad Computer Science, then I did an MBA in high-tech so purely technology-based and wanted to become the next big company founder. A lot of my jobs were mostly startups but when I realized that I'm sitting on a lot of options and not going anywhere, I said, I need to diversify and started looking into real estate investing that was not until 2012, but that was just a side gig. I still was fully devoted to my job, which was startups and it was in data analytic space and we're building a platform to connect all the data in the world together and put meaning into data, using something called a Data Lake. A lot of formal companies were using our software, financial services, but there was no real estate company using it. But anyway after I finished my five years with that company, my stocks options fully invested. I was like, okay, what is my next startup? And by this time I had started collecting my grants from the little investments I'd done. I had started investing in 2012 in one Condo in Orlando, Florida, and gradually went on to buy more because the prices were very attractive and I could see the prices going up and I said, let me just get in there, so I got in there, fortunately, had a good property manager that helped us take the worries or headache off our head and the cash flow was beautiful. So in about 2016, I said, okay, they need me to see this look and I bought actually a 15 unit multifamily near my house in Boston and I wanted to do more of that because I'd heard, you know, multifamily the whole economy is upscale. So I said, let's get into multifamily and that experience was interesting, to say the least. I had not too much knowledge about the underwritings and how to really look at expenses and that came in as a very expensive learning lesson for me in terms of multifamily. So from there on, I said, this is too much work, I can't do this. I found a good property manager and he quit and then found another one then he quit and it's like, this is too much. So I said, no passive investing is my way to do it, this whole active thing is not my thing and I'm still working full time on my job. So I started nesting passively with some investors. The first time I looked at a passive deal I was like that's too much, there are too many zeros in here, I can't do this but gradually as I understood, I took learning and took all the courses and reading blogs and podcasts and I got comfortable with investing passively and then a couple of passive investments and I was like, this is great, I have my nine condos, I have my fifteen hundred, which has now started giving me cash flow and now has passive investments. Interestingly, it was almost matching up to my startup salary. And I was like the options are great, but what if the options don't mature or do much? So I took a bet and I quit after five years of my job to do real estate full time and that's how I dig more into multifamily. But interestingly at that point, I had this idea of another startup, which didn't go too much far because I wanted to take these learning from data analytics into real estate and now that I'm doing multifamily and doing all this, I'm not seeing too many systems out there. It's still very, laborious jobs, the property management company is a lot of work on paper and even the underwriting was very painful. So I was like, what if there's an automated software machine learning data, whatever we have learned in technology to build that. So I met up with the person at MIT, Jennifer, she had done a Ph.D. in Real Estate Technologies, like Artificial Intelligence Machine Learning for Real Estate. I'm like wow this is a person that I James: Talk to right? Raj: Yeah, so I sat down with her and she went through her thesis with me. In fact, she was nice enough to explain her thesis; there are too many companies out there that are doing what I'm trying to do.  James: So what was the thesis about? Raj: The thesis was the use of machine learning and artificial intelligence in real estate  James: But is it real estate underwriting, or is it real estate analysis or--  Raj: --Real estate analysis  James: Is it for investment or is it-- Raj:  So she actually worked for MITs and Darwin program buying the advisory real estate James: Oh, okay. So they're basically looking at investing Raj: So they're looking at investing so mostly commercial real estate, eventually, from her thesis, she came into that, MITs fund. She was working there at that time. But in her research, she had looked at a lot of technology companies, right? From doing everything from sensitivity analysis to underwriting to figuring out where the locations thesis are, property management companies that are looking to do automation based on the [inaudible06:24] so a lot of machine learning in there. Actually, one of the companies that struck me at that time was in [inaudible06:33], which is what I had been thinking about, sort of how to automate underwriting and how to take all the data that's been sitting in, all these Yardi Matrix and all the places that been collecting data. How can we leverage that to say, okay, well, this is a property that I'm looking at in multifamily, this is the address and boom, we'll go and run into algorithms and come back and say red light, green light, yellow light based on all these factors and in [inaudible 07:02] was doing that, some of that, I talked to the CEO there and start using the platform. So I had some suggestions for them into building other plans and other features on the platform but at that point I said, you know what, I'm more of a user now, and they're not technologists, I want to use these technologies that are out there, I can talk about what features they need, like lease analysis. In one of the deals we went inside in the back and you're looking at 150 leases, one by one, what is matching up. There's no use of doing that, those leases should be fed into a system and outcomes, and these are the mismatches  James: The lease [inaudible 07:38] should be automated Raj: This is a tenant profile and based on this tenant profile and this property and this neighborhood, this tenant profile will be surviving through any downturn, that’s what you need to know on tenant profile I'm sure somebody will build it in there; I think [inaudible 07:55] was already thinking about doing that. Anyway, from that I said, okay, I'm going to stay as a user, I started using these technologies but then I got stuck more into the whole underwriting piece and managing the properties, finding the properties, I was like talking to brokers, now I'm talking to this and that's how I met a couple of good people through coaching programs that I said, okay, it's time to take the next step, move from passive to active, and see how the big things are done. I wanted to be closer to the action. So that's how I got into active investments James: Got it. I mean, that's a lot of things there. So I want to go a bit more in detail on that, but that's good. I mean, so right now you're a full-time real estate investor, right? Raj: Full time real estate investor. Yes. I mean always thinking of the next technology ideas James: Well, that's the problem with all these tech guys coming into real estate? I also think the same, let's automate this, and let’s create a system on this Raj:  Yeah. But I mean, I keep in touch, keep a pulse on that. So I don't know if you know about this organization called CRE tech- Commercial Real Estate Tech, middle of New York and they are looking at all these things, all kinds of who's doing what, which company is being funded. So I keep in touch with them. I'm a member of them, but just looking at ideas, someday somebody has come with a great idea that we are still a little behind than other industries in terms of use of technology James: Oh yeah. Real estate is so manual. I mean, there's not many people investing in technology and it's a bit tricky too because a lot of people component Raj: And I was told one day that, (AI) Artificial Intelligence, the biggest tool, billions of dollars are being traded in real estate based on excel spreadsheets. That is the technology of choice of all these big reads and fund managers and they're just doing Excel spreadsheets James:  Yeah. I don't know why the real estate is just so hard to automate in terms of location because even like, if you look at a street, one side of the street can be completely different valuation from the other side. And how do you tell that to the software? You can't tell them that people have different preferences going in Raj: Well, if you feel that, you can tell that by how many murders were on the left side of the street and how many murders on the right side [inaudible 10:16] I mean, I just think the crime rate, our school districts and there are so many factors you can pinpoint it. Now there's so much data being collected on all of this, right? You just have to leverage the data and every time a property gets sold, a property gets bought that data is entered into a system, right? The analysis entered into the system, even for an upgrade, all the data has been entered so you should be able to tell that if I put granite flooring in this, or I put up vinyl flooring in this, or whatever, this is the gorgeous fettuccine down the road, right? Because that's [inaudible 10:50] James:  I think that's what [inaudible 10:52] does, right? Sometimes they do a lot of underwriting, they try to predict what is the rent going to be, but I'm not sure how big they are. I know there were some people really excited about it, but some people really didn't like it. I saw it once; the tool looks good for a tacky, right? If you're a second, it looks like everything's done for you. But I don't know for me, I don't feel comfortable yet. Raj: I think there's nothing. So all that said, James, there is no equal end to be having boots on the ground. So this is what I've learned James: Well, for real estate, you have to go to the property, you have to do the cost yourself Raj: Exactly. So you'll do all, that saves you a lot of time, right, because you can do the cost, the real analysis is done when you're there and you're looking at the property because we walked away from a deal that had everything looked good on paper and technology tools and everything, because this one building down the slope, had some structural issues that we didn't know, I mean, no technology tool will tell you that turning on some like pillars that are like fake  James: Correct. There's no way to know. I mean, as I say, I love all these tools, but I don't know for me, I don't want to pay so much money for this tool unless it giving me an automated thing. Raj: That's where the progression has to happen. The more they have to get better and they have to get cheaper for that option. Otherwise, excel spreadsheets help people doing their report James: One day will, right? I mean, if you look at it right now, we need a buyer agent, we need a seller agent to do a house transaction and the reason for that is so much people touch, right? I mean, a seller needs to know that he's getting the best value for his product. Only people can see the house and decide whether it's a good house or not, right? It's a bit hard for computer AI to really say that this is a good house for this person, right? Maybe one day it will. Raj: It will. They'll cut short the time or for your needs maybe James: Correct. And I know a lot of startups were trying to do all this right there. I mean, every tech guy who was introduced into real estate in the behind them is [inaudible 12:53], oh, I can do a startup, even syndication people are trying to automate right? They're trying to rank the sponsors, they tried to give stars to sponsors and everybody is trying to do all this but as I said, it's very hard to give a star ranking to sponsor there are so many other things that are involved. I mean, one day probably, yes. But we are not there yet with the technology, the information we have so how do you feel? I mean, you and I are almost the same, right? I mean, we're always in the technology space and suddenly become real estate. Do you think you've wasted all that lifetime in tech space? Raj: No, not wasted. It's a game, it's life as it plays out, now where I am my biggest strength is my value for my time. I mean, I control my time in what I'm doing, when I was working tech job, I mean, you had management meetings on Friday afternoon. I was like an owl, now if you go look at my calendar, you'll never find a Friday afternoon open because I dropped it James: Okay. That's good. Yeah. I mean sometimes people who have studied so much in certain fields, I don't know. I do see some doctors moving from being a doctor to becoming a real estate investor. I mean, at the end of the day it's all about time, right. Time and how much [inaudible 14:13] Raj: I mean it’s time and it's what you enjoy. I mean, I also realized that a lot of what I do in real estate is marketing and I love marketing James: Nobody cares in the tech company Raj: Yeah. So when I'm even in my tech job, my last job was in marketing. So I was basically a demand generation for this data analytics back on rebuilding. So basically evangelizing technology for people that don't understand it, it's sort of marketing. So writing blogs, writing white papers, writing all this stuff, simplifying things for them. That's what I had become in my technology job also because nobody wants to hear the mumble-jumble of data lakes and medication and all that stuff. It's like, bring it down. What does it do for me? And now he's the same thing, syndication and all what does it do for me? I mean, so marketing is basically attracting the right people and getting rid of people that you don't want in your system. So that's why even in capital raise or even the deals that we do it's very important to figure out who your customers are which in our case is investors and it took me a little while, my first four deals, I was like talking to everybody and anybody like, okay, this is what we have and I was like, no, that's not me finally figured out the people who are attracted to my deals, especially are tech executives, like me that have collected a decent paycheck, they have a decent amount of wealth, they want to diversify, they're paying a lot of taxes and they are paying [inaudible 15:50] that. So they want to learn about how real estate can help them with taxes, how real estate can help them diversify, a lot of them have invested completely in the stock market, which we have done that in the past and I've lost a lot of money in stock and that's why I never want to go back to stocks anymore and I'm trying to teach the same thing through my formal education. James: Yeah. Surprisingly not many people know about real estate. I know probably all the listeners here, they will. I mean, you are already learning and listening to podcasts about real estate, you already know, but it's very surprising to know how many people don't know about real estate and don't know what passive investing. I mean, people know that you can go buy a house and give it for rental, but nobody knows that I can put the money with a sponsor who will do the work every time Raj: They know real estate investing, they don't know realistic passive investing James: Correct Raj: Yeah, passive investors have become my passion James: Yeah. I mean, that's why I wrote my book too because not to introduce real estate to passive investors, I want them to be a bit smarter. I mean, sometimes when they got introduced to real estate, they think, wow, my God this is the best thing they just follow one way of thinking, right? So Raj: You just stole my line that's what I say, because, at smart capital, we make you smarter James: Okay, good. Because I mean, first, you get introduced to passive investing, second is how you become smarter, right? So let's talk about that. I mean, you said you have done some really cool stuff for passive investors and incorporating some technologies and all that Raj: Absolutely. I mean, again, nothing was planned. It just happened over time, my first deal, when I presented to some of my friends, they said, Raj take my $50,000. I'm not going to take your $50,000. You need to sit down with me, understand what it is James: Well, that's the problem with me. I don't like just taking money. I want you to understand the deal. Cause I believe it's a good deal Raj: I actually know the four friends that I had, I bought them tandoori chicken. I said, come sit with me and I'll explain to you what it means. So I bought wine and food. I said, look at this, I'm going to tell you what it is if you understand it and if you still want to invest, that's great. I want you to understand it because I can take the money and invest it, I mean, that's not a problem, that's the easiest thing for me, but I really want you to get smarter in my sense, you know, that's why smart capital and so that small group grew into a little bigger group and I created a meet up in the Boston area on just apartment investing and teaching what it is and growly slowly And I kept it small for a number of my first year I did it in my office in a conference room. They were like 35 chairs and who can come but we kept it very educational. That was the thing. We'll take a topic, we'll discuss the topic or make sure that anybody in the room is understanding and if there is somebody else experienced in the room, they're absolutely allowed to speak up and do so, kept it very educational, very different meet ups. A lot of people said, okay, Raj's meet up is educational so we're going to go there, and then I didn't have enough space so I took a bigger space now the membership in that whole meet up has grown to 600 plus people but we now get about 60, 70, 200 people monthly and I've kept it monthly and still, we talk about educational purposes There's no come have beer, learn about network and go back. That's not it. So to answer your point in doing so right, I've internally built some systems to make sure this is a smoother process for me. So in terms of the thought leadership platform, I have my meet up, I started doing blogs consistently. Obviously I'm active on Face book, LinkedIn, and really wherever else I can post my blogs. I also to become a member of the Forbes relisted council so I can do some technology related articles there and talk about what I'm thinking. So yeah, I've done all these things and now I have in a way that I've created this CRM and systems and attracting investors who, whatever platforms that they can get onto podcasts like this and talk more about what I've done in my past and just share my experiences, that's basically it. James: So how do you decide on doing a deal? Let's say someone brings you a deal, right? How do you decide this is a good deal, I really like it. What are the things that you look for? Raj: So the first thing I like, ideal deals only very few people. I mean, as partners, right? I mean, I'm not into numbers of deals and I don't count the number of doors. I don't do that. I like to enjoy myself, I mean, to [inaudible 20:30] my life, you're going to be just chasing money and [inaudible 20:33] James: You want to be peaceful too, right. Reinvesting the right sponsor because you can make an investment any-- Raj: --People that I enjoy, I mean, the deals will have good and bad times. One of our deals is we haven't done distribution, but I will say that I'll invest that deal again. I believe so much in the team that even because I'm so close to the deal and my investor is saying, Hey Raj, we haven't distributed work. I said it'll be fine. It's just because I trust the people that I work with and I could do another deal with them. So I’m very selective about who I work with, these are people from my coaching backgrounds, I've heard them say I hear them strength and they have to be complemented with my strength. So if I'm good at finding markets and I say, what, I'm going to invest in Orlando or Kansas City or whatever markets that I have in my head because I've done some research on data on that and obviously then underwriting should make sense but my number one criteria is the people that I work with and do I add value to them and they add value to me. So I will claim I'm not a good asset manager, I've never intended to be so I will always look for a very strong asset management on the team James: Got it. So you basically look for the sponsorship and how the team complements with you as well Raj: The dealership and the numbers should make sense, but that's true for everybody. You will not invest or be participating in the deal, that doesn't make sense James: Yeah. What do you look for in a very strong sponsorship team? That you really like? I mean, what personality, integrity or--? Raj: --Integrity, number one is integrity, right? I mean, the track record is okay, but I think track record, I've seen these guys done. I mean, it was not done like 15, 20 syndications, some of them have, but some of them are still early in the stage, they have done maybe two syndications before this one, but I've seen them through the coaching classes and going through with them to on due diligence trips. So I always go and make sure that I'm on part of, once we go sign up, form a structure, I'm going to get involved with all the due diligence and all everything. So I'd sit down with them and see what their work ethic is, how passionate they are about it, and will they stay committed with me? James: Got it. Very interesting. What about, on other things, in terms of the underwriting or in terms of market analysis, have you done any; have you incorporated any technology things into analyzing that? Raj: Yeah. I mean, I do my own technology things. I mean, I haven't written software for that, but I do look at a lot of data James: What kind of data do you look for? Raj: So, I mean, a standard feature, like population growth, job growth, and median income. We will also look at STEM jobs, right? I mean, I look at if it's a technology oriented job, are there or not because I mean, in these times the properties that are doing well, are people technology, company, people working from home, right? So all of that is important as well [inaudible 23:34] James: Got it. Very interesting. So is there any proud moment throughout this real estate career that you think oh, I did that and I feel really proud about it and you can never forget about it until the end? Raj: Well, the proud moment was I'm into partner with you on my first deal. I mean, that was a very proud moment. I told you right when the first time I looked at syndication when a friend of mine presented to me, he was on the GP side, I was on the limited partner side. He says "Raj I got the deal."  And I said, "What is this? This is like 300 units. I mean, there are too many zeros. There was no freaking way." So now when I did my first deal with that number of zeros, I mean, it was not 300, it was 152 units that deal was a very proud moment for me having gone through understanding what it means and then the other proud moment was to convince some of my investors to partner alongside with me right now that I learned this and I'm sort of sharing my education. I don't even call it capital raising. I'm giving them an opportunity to participate with us. I'm doing them a favor, sometimes I feel that way and that's one way to look at it and I'm saying no, every deal of mine for my side has the same investor. The first investor is always the same, that's me. So I'm going to invest in these deals, I've done the research; I've been to the property. Now I'm presenting it to you this deal, why I like it, and you're welcome to join along, so the proud moment was to getting that achievement, right? The first one and the second one becomes easy. And then the first one was the problem James: Got it. Awesome. Can you tell our audience how to get hold of you? Raj: Absolutely. I mean, I have a website, I'm very active on Facebook, but my website is smartcapitalmgmt.com. My email is raj@smartcapitalmgmt.com. Easy to use to get to me or LinkedIn. Facebook also is there James: Awesome. Thanks so much for coming. It's so refreshing to see how someone from the tech industry moved directly into a multifamily investor. I think a lot of people do, right? But there are still tons of people who don't, right? So it's just the thought process and sometimes the desire to technologize everything, sometimes it's hard, right? Real estate-- Raj: -- Why do you want to do that? I mean, you want to enjoy what you're doing, right? If building a technology company is your passion then real estate will not be the thing, but leveraging technology to get smarter is another issue James: Got it. Awesome. Well, thanks for coming. I'm sure everybody got tons of value Raj: Thank you, James. Thanks for having me James: All right. Good

James: Hey audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today I have Rama Krishna from California. Rama has been focusing a lot on apartment purchases which is averaging around 30 to 40 a units and at the largest you have done were 59 units. So it's going to be very interesting especially for a lot of people who are trying to get into the game and also looking for like high cash flow as well, you're going to go detail on why sometimes the smaller deals makes a lot more money than larger deals. So hey Rama, welcome to the show.  Rama: Thank you James. Thank you for having me.  James: And one of the things that we want to talk about apart from going into Rama's strategies and businesses, we want to go into what asset manager can do during these Covid19 crisis that has been happening right now. Hopefully I can publish this podcast as soon as possible. But I'm sure it's going to be very relevant because it's going to take a few months for this crisis to subside I guess, it may take a few more quarters to fully subside. So Rama, did I miss out anything on your credentials?  Rama: No, not much I think. So just to kind of re-summarize, I am based out of California in the corporate Bay area of San Francisco, an IT professional. So just to recap like 90 seconds. I started like from real estate two years back started from single family homes and I always want to actually to do Real Estate but the problem is in Bay Area, really hot market. I cannot get any cash flow. It's kind of very hard to find deals and I didn't want to do out of state because I have a very stressful IT job here. I cannot travel out of state to do these things. I was postponing doing real estate for so long time, but three years back kind of pull the trigger, bought my two single family homes, one in Raleigh and Atlanta, that's where it started and quickly realized that I cannot scale with single family homes and got into multifamily, bought eight apartment complexes between 20 to 80 units. That's a more like a sweet spot for me. Like doing the deals. We can go further into that. One thing, we started, we didn't talk before is that construction projects, two new construction projects, 97 and 92 units in Raleigh, Durham, North Carolina. So they are like devalue adds, value adds and the new construction mostly into that existing apartments and new developments.  James: Got it. That's very interesting. I think we should just definitely talk about you and maybe do a separate podcast for the Covid19 asset management because there's so much of information that I want to get from you and I think the Covid19 thing is also very important. So that's going to be another podcast maybe before or after this. So let's go into details; the market that you have been focusing on that, I know we talk offline before this is Florida, Kansas City and Ohio, and you are sitting in California. At what point of your work, you are very stressful IT guy. I mean, I was a stressful IT guy too. What was that aha moment saying that hey, I better go buy something else or did you play around with stocks and realize stocks is not for you? So what was that aha moment that said that you need to go and focus on buying a multifamily apartments?  Rama: So I did two businesses, IT businesses, products and the consulting business. I did stocks, options and everything. It was a lot of active businesses, I need to be there, and I am really active, let’s say if somebody can start restaurants, like franchises, you need to be there in that actively. So you are there to be part of the business, then you cannot succeed in that. Even IT businesses or consulting or product development, everything is active here. Even where a lot of people have a lot of money from IT as freelancing or like full time jobs, but the problem is if they stop going Monday morning they cannot make money. That's the main part for me to getting into the Real Estate and then I bought these single family homes, I'm getting like $200, $300 for each single family home as a cash flow. But then I wanted to scale it, but at the same time I thought I cannot scale it. The problem with apartments at the time for me personally living in Bay area, these apartment complexes are so expensive. These are like 20, 30, 40, $50 million. I didn't even know that we can buy a apartment complexes. The two things, kind of the aha moment for me is we can buy apartments as a common man with syndication. Syndication is another thing. I was buying single family homes myself and I know a lot of my friends actually buying single family homes out of state. They buy in Texas, North California; they buy everywhere all the single family homes. But if you combined 10, 20, 30 people combined, we can actually buy larger complexes, larger commercial properties. That was a [05:17unclear] the syndication itself was an aha moment for me.  James: Was that from someone talking to you or from bigger pockets or you're talking about syndication or what happened? How did you find it out? Rama: I learned about this syndication with a webinar from Neil Baba, you know Neil? He was having this weekly or acting monthly multifamily fundamentals webinar. So two years back in November 2017, I had this is a webinar from him and the moment that I did the webinar, I first reached out to him Neil, I want to meet you, this is really good, this is crazy. Then met in a Starbucks in Fremont and I told him after this Neil I want to learn this thing. This is exactly what I wanted to do and he said there's a boot camp coming up. He would come in February and I said I'm going to sign up on that. That's when it kind of started, kind of working from single families to multi families.  James: Got it. What were the few key things in that discussion with Neil that you have was like, wow, this is suitable for me. What was your personal thing that you think that oh, this is very interesting for me. What are the aspects of syndication that was very attractive to you that you think [06:40unclear]. Rama: Three things, Oral apartments is a kind of a scale in the single family home model that what I'm thinking. I know the real estate passive income, but then I cannot buy a hundred, 200, 300 single family homes. The first thing is scale. The second thing is run as a business, like I did my IT businesses before. So apartments is also a business, you need to increase your income, decrease your expenses, and then efficiently run your operations. Make sure that you know everything like people management and you talk to your property managers and investors and your brokers and seeing like identifying this analysis, everything. Run it as a business. Third thing aspect is a syndication model itself. I have like hundreds of friends here and other acquaintances, old colleagues, a lot of people are high net worth individuals. If I can prove myself in this business, I can definitely syndicate and raise capital. So those are the three main aspects for me that kind of struck the card when was talking to him and also the fundamental thing, hey we can buy larger complexes like this. Like I was not even imagining the common man can buy apartments. Those are the three main aspects.  James: Got it. So now you're sitting in California, after you talk to Neil you come out and you already go to his boot camp. Why you went from California to Florida, Kansas City and Ohio? Which deal did you buy for us? Which state was that?  Rama: For my multifamily?  James: Yeah. Multifamily.  Rama: The first five deals, I bought it in Jacksonville, Florida.  James: Okay. Why Jacksonville, Florida? Why not Las Vegas or Utah or Texas? Or is it just that you landed there by luck? Rama: So I want to actually buy a multifamily in Raleigh, Durham and Atlanta because that's where I started. When I started researching about markets for my single family homes, with all the research I did, I picked these two markets, Raleigh and Durham.  James: Okay. What are the things you saw in Raleigh, Durham and Atlanta that were like awesome [08:49unclear].  Rama: Some of it I think was I'm reading all the articles and reading all the articles and everything with the technology stuff happening also there and jobs moving in, I didn't actually connect the dots at the time, When I did the boot camp from Neil then I was able to connect the dots and say hey, these are good markets. Then I was started offering on deals in North Carolina and Atlanta. Like none of them were pencilling out, like what is this? Even two, three years back it's not working out. I can't imagine now, maybe like with Corona, it's never kind of worked out for me because I never purchased in the last three years. When I started multifamily again I started looking into these two markets, Raleigh, Durham and Atlanta. I was offering ton of properties. I visited brokers’ network. Either the deals are like C minus, really bad locations or bad tenant profile. The income is bad, which numbers are working on but the thing is I don't know how to do the deals there or it's too expensive where it just didn't work out for me.  The vision for Jacksonville is when I was trying to expand markets from single family homes, I was looking at Austin and somehow actually got into Jacksonville because of the property manager or the property manager was actually offering, they do turnkey single families home as well. So I was talking to them doing due diligence, everything with them and making sure what kind of deal on single family homes that they can help me on, on rehabbing and the stuff. Then I suddenly like after talking to Neil, I said, guys, I'm not interested in single families. No, we have deals, this is like 60k and we have this 140k [10:39unclear] but they said okay we'll help you in multifamily as well. Let me know if you find any deals. We'll help you manage. That's when Jacksonville started and then they also kind of helped you and due diligence and everything. Then we'll look at a few deals together and we bought this 20 unit deal and that was on market actually, but it's the heavy lifting stuff like the roofs are bad, two, three units are down; it's really heavy lifting. I thought, okay, let me just get into it. The twenty unit is most like a cost of a one condo here. James: Looks so cheap when you look at California?    Rama: You know what I'm going to lose here, let me try it out but we made really good money on that. So definitely that's the good, I got the money from my friends and family first, not as syndication. It's more like a joint venture. A lot of my small multifamily is a joint venture. We can go into details how we've structured those. So that was very good deal. Look back right now. We did that and then quickly since I liked the market, I kind of learned about Jacksonville more. The more I know it's like a really hot market, then the found more deals in the end of that eight months to nine months and then they all are smaller, 20, 30, 12, 32 to 59. James: Syndication. I mean syndication; you can put larger money and buy a hundred plus unit or like some gurus say by start with a hundred plus. Why did you start with 20 and 30? And what is the driving motivation for that?  Rama: Neil actually encourages to start with small, he never said go more than a hundred units, but I'm part of a team of multifamily Mark Kinney. He suggest only a hundred plus units because of several reasons because you're putting effort on a 20 unit, it's the same as 200 units, go hundred plus. I totally believe it from a mentorship perspective, he's different. I did that because when I did my eight LLC taxes for last year and all the administrative work that goes behind these things. I would totally agree with Mark and also any other gurus out there that say go hundred plus units. I totally agree on that from effort standpoint. But there is money to be made in this 4,200 unit space as well. And a lot of people ignore it. There is definitely a possibility that you can put your operations hat there and your creative hat there to see how you can profit from it. You also know from the investor perspective as well.  James: Yeah correct. I started with the 45 units and I really love it just because you really learn a lot from smaller deals and you don't have to go much bigger deal and you forget, you cannot be like skipping elementary school and middle school and try to go direct to high school. I mean you can do it once in a while or when the market's so good but the fundamentals of real estate is really learned on the smaller deals, even with single family. You start with single family and you move to the smaller deals.  Rama: There are pros and cons. For example, the pros are you don't need to have payroll. The con is also the same thing. You don't have a staff and then your property manager may be sitting in some downtown office somewhere. They don't know what's happening at the 20 units or forty units. So you need to have very kind of a good property manager, even for a hundred plus units also you need a good property manager, but at least you have staff. If you can talk to them, hey, what's going on? Because the regional might not be at the site all the time. The regional might be like going once in a month, once in 10 days, whatever. But you have a staff day you can talk to, hey, what's going on leasing, what are the foot traffic? What are other strategies that you have always or do you have going on these units? Have you did the make ready? All of these things. There is a long [14:38unclear] clean you can talk to someone. But if there is a 59 unit somewhere in the west side of Jacksonville and my property managers sitting on downtown, they don't even know the pool guy's coming, they don't know that the lawn is not cut for the last two months. So there is good and bad, especially if you're doing out of state property manager, no asset management. That would be more difficult. But there are ways to mitigate that. Have a local partner in your deal that is onsite, on the ground goes once in a week or so.  James: Did you have a local partner there? Rama: One in Jacksonville but not in Kansas City and [15:2unclear] but now Jacksonville, I have changed my property managers, she's really hands on and she actually sits in one of our office. Jacksonville Unit has an office actually. So she's really good and now I can think of acquiring more properties in Jackson, I was thinking not be acquired more. But if you have really good property manager who is hands and kind of trustworthy, then you can definitely; these are really cash cows.  James: Yeah. I mean the people play the most important aspect in property management. It's a people business. So once you find a really good people, you are motivated. Rama: You are local or have a partner locally in the 40 to 80 unit game and it's definitely worthwhile to [16:08unclear]. James: Because it's not many people look at that space. I mean, the market was so hot right before, pre-Corona, I would say. Now we have to talk about pre-Corona and post-Corona.  Pre-Corona is so much of capital looking for deal and everybody just buy the bigger deals. Rama: Yeah, I do buy the deals in the three bands, James like 40 to 80, 80 to 160 and 160 above. 40 to 80 is where I do kind of deals with mostly JBS and then also syndicate patients deal where you don't need an onsite staff, we can operationalize and make sure that let's say if you have multiple 40 to 80 deals in the same market, you can actually have some scale within that. Have a maintenance person who I only see for properties. So 80 to 160 units where our focus primarily from a syndication perspective when we can have staff. 160 plus is an institutional level where the different companies move there, which I'm not going right now. But I would love to go 160 plus.  James: 160 plus, okay. I think that still does not answer [17:16unclear]. Rama: [17:17unclear] but at least you have a different set up [17:20unclear] James: Different level of people. Yeah, professional investors I would say maybe. That's good. Yeah. I mean so how did you structure this JB on the smaller side? Because you really don't have to do syndication for everything, I mean, if you have a few guys who are your family and friends who are willing to put some large money, you can just do a JB and explain to the audience how did you do that JB and syndication. Rama: Yeah, even if it is JV, I would want someone like they do perform some tasks. It's not that, you know, hey, like it's a JB and I'll do all the work. They allow us to have to do some work on that. Because they all structure James two options here. One, either I put less money and they put more money and everybody will have an equal share. Let's say I'm giving very rough example. I bought 50K and other people put 100K each or 200K each, whatever it is. And each of the 3% will be attached to person of the [18:15unclear]. James: Got it.  Rama: That's one option. The second option is I've also put 100K but all three people will put 100K into the deal, but I get 50%. They both get 25%. It's just very high level examples. Either I put less money in and take an equal percentage with the other investors or I put more money and take higher percentage. But same money as others.  James: All these deals you're buying in these different cities is it all value add or de-value add or cash flowing? How's that?  Rama: Most are value add as some are de-value adds as well. I'm kind of going away cookie cutter stuff, but the cookie cutter stuff, I'd still do it. But for the long-term part. That is more kind of relevant for a JV structure because for syndication I need to perform two to five years, I need to exhibit. But if I find a deal, which is really kind of a long-term goal and that is also good for this model where I don't need to worry about performing something in three to five years, I can even take a bridge loan and refinance it and keep it for longer term to the cash flow that's fine. If you don't get to cash flow, that's also fine. At least you can get all the rehab money from the lender and renovate it fully and then go to a permanent loan and keep it for like another six to eight years or 10 years.  James: Do you finance with the bridge loan in the beginning itself?  Rama: Yes. Yeah. Half of the loans I deal with now are bridge loans.  James: Okay.  Rama: Half of them are Freddie Mac. But see this is a de-value add. I know I can get all the rehab budget from the bridge loan. James: Yeah, correct. De-value adds make sense for... Rama: And then refinance it.  James: Got it.  Rama: So it's like kind of a cookie cutter or a little bit like value adds, I go with Freddie Mac loans.  James: Got it. Yeah. I mean the smaller ones has less competition. Sometimes you make a lot more money because there's no payroll and some people like my 45 units people just like to stay in a smaller community because they don't like bigger and the people, a lot of residents like a smaller communities, they don't need all these amenities. They just say we want housing.   Rama: Yeah that's true and another trend is happening, the build to rent. They're doing a medium density bill to rent the whole complex is for Randwick. So they built a town home complex or a single family home complex only for rent because we will be rendered national for some, and especially this post-Corona, it will be delayed like three more years, people will not be looking at home ownership. But at the same time, they don't want to live in apartments. They can live in a town home community or the kind of a little bit less density, a single family home community, maybe more density, single family home community. They're okay with that, right? Because they still have the pride of ownership. You have a better tenant profile and they can also feel that they're living in a regular home than an apartment complex. So the build to rent a town home and a single family home concept is growing as well.  James: So let's say you get a deal; every day you get a deal right now, I mean you're getting into brokers I presume. So what are the sniff test do you do on the deal? Because sometimes they list too many deals?  Rama: Yeah. I have my 60 seconds rule, 60 minutes rule and I don't know, 60 days like I see the more you go, you're going to spend more time on this deal. So the first thing I do is go to the justice map or CoStar just to see them demographics. For what is the median income and demographics mix on this and how the income is growing in this area. If that is a bad area I just... James: So every deal, the 62nd is that few steps go to CoStar.  Rama: Yes first go to; no, I don't need the CoStar, District Map is free. Just go to justicemap.org, just put that address.  James: What's that website called?  Rama: Justicemap.org. James: Oh justice map, yeah, justicemap.org. Rama: Just go to that, put the address you will see the census block. What is the median income, what is the demographics mix and how the income is changing. Then you will see the first sniff test and then I'll see the rents. Nowadays what I'm seeing is the average rent, like around $750 or about; I'm not going to C minus, C property, C plus or B. So I can quickly take a deal out, 60 seconds or less. And then next step will be go to the bond writing and see what the rent projections are, go to Rentometer or any other, I can go CoStar or Rentometer and see what are the rents. Are they below the market or not because I don't care about the rent growth, what happened in the next five, six years, what is in place rents and what I can achieve the market. That is where I focus. Let's say if it is $75, $150, $200 below, then definitely if it's like a C plus, B area, 45K or 40K median income and the demographics mix is good and everything, then I definitely go to the next level and traditional spend six days or not. Then to go to the 60 days. James: That's probably including the best and final and all that. Rama: Yeah every step that you go 60 seconds, 60 minutes, 60 days you're going to waste your time, effort, money on a deal. You need to talk to programs you need to visit, it adds up the cost, time and effort, energy.  James: Yeah. It's crazy how much work you have to do on progressively. So is there a lot of competition even on the smaller deals? Rama: There will be. Yeah. And it sounds especially previously that lasted two years, this competition for everything. But the 40 to 80 unit spaces, James, the smaller people cannot buy those and they still want a track record and know everything. They don't want to give it the deal to anyone. The bigger people are not interested in this because and the same thing that you said it's too much work. Definitely there will be competition but if you do a JV structure and especially you can do a long-term goal or maybe a tentative exchange because on a largest syndication it'd be 20, 30, 40 people. It's going to difficult to convince everyone, hey, let's do a 10, 31 exchange. So on a smaller deal if I get a 42 unit I know the JV people, like we have five people, so once we got a bridge loan, we renovate, and we’ll sell. Say if somebody wants to know by this thing, we have a bigger pool of money in the pot for the 10, 31 now we can from 42 units they can go to 80 units and then they can move to 160 units. I can spin off three fourth, 10-31 exchanges like that and quickly it can go from 200 to 800 units within two to three years or four years.  James: That's interesting. You can start from small and just doing 10 31 and start increasing. Rama: Exactly, on syndication it's not kind of very difficult. I have 40 investors, like half of them, hey, I need my money back. I let them say, let's just enter the one. Okay. Then it'll be difficult to coordinate this.  James: Oh, right. Interesting. Yeah. I never done a 10 31 exchange up until now because I don't prefer it so much because I'm worried that it costs me to buy the wrong deals. Because all sellers love 10-31 buyers. Rama: TO be active, don't disclose that you're a 10-31 buyer. Have those deal flow, you need to be really active. Every time I have four to five, six deals, then I can pick the right one. Hey, I'm not going to go wrong on this because it's a B property, eighties construction. What are the criteria that you have? The rents are like a hundred dollars lower. I'm okay to even or pay 100K - 200K on this because on the 10-31 you want to certain the deal, you want certain to close it. So picking the right property and make sure you're doing the due diligence and then do the 10-31 because yeah. So worst case, you'd pay taxes and it's not like another wall. It's better than going in the bad deal.  James: Correct. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. So tell me about your value add strategy. Do you do interior, exterior and from deck and you define what's the most valuable value add that you have seen? Rama: No, I do de-value add, like if the roofs are leaking, like falling down we get a new roof and completely renovating the units to top-notch, [26:57unclear] dollars also into the C properties. I think the thing is weird to see the holistic picture. There is no one specific thing that I do, which is the most value add, just turning it on the property to create the maximum value out of this. Like if it is a exceeded deferred maintenance, the problem with deferred maintenance is you don't get any rent bump if I change my roof. But you need to make sure that you negotiate the deal. Okay. Hey, this has a roof issue and if you're paying the market price, but for a de-value add that doesn't make sense. If there is an exterior deferred maintenance I would love to know everything in place and only do the interior value add. That is the best thing to do if I can get, but I'm not afraid of de-value adds. I did full redevelopments also I'm doing new construction as well, so whatever the maximum value that you can out of the property on the rent. That is what I looked into it.  James: Got it. So that's very interesting. So tell me about yourself. I mean so you are an engineer and you are doing real estate right now, where do you see yourself in the next five to 10 years? Pre-Corona or post-Corona? Rama: If we didn't have the same conversation January James, I was thinking I would retire in 2020. Like I had two deals. I was about to go under contract at backdoor on one day I was at the deal also I'm at 80% on the fence to back out. Completely changes. So things like this, you go back to the square one, go back to the drawing board or go back to school. . Then rethink your strategies. Yeah, definitely. De-value adds and new construction. I want to get maximum value out of it. Cookie cutter. I'm like mostly ignoring, but if I can do long-term goal, I'm okay with cookie cutter. If not that I can get out three to five years and do this like kind of churn. It's just a lot of work. A lot of people think when you're just come into syndication or a multifamily, it is a passive income. This is not passive income at all, like zero. For investors, yes. So I would continue doing what I'm doing, but it'd be more conservative. The new rules. The rules have changed.  James: The rules have changed. Yeah.  Rama: The playing field changed. The game is changed. Everything is changed. But the fundamentals remain the same. We will be renters’ nation. The multifamily will not go away. People need place to live. The next one year will be a little bit at least six months to one year. It will be tough in the operations perspective, fully focusing on operations on what I have and I'll continue the story, but the story now will be much better. You will see what is the need for passive income now you know better. Things might change. People are getting laid off. So you need to get your passive income streams. The story becomes stronger now and nothing changed in that perspective. James: Correct. Correct. Also in the stocks market you can lose your money, but in a brick and mortar real estate, you don't really lose the money. Rama: The capital is reserved, you have a hard asset. You can go and touch, feel it, and then that's not going anywhere. You might have instead of 8% returns, you might have 2% returns or 1% returns, at least your capital is reserved. Stock markets you're bidding down like crazy there. You're losing half of your money or more than half of your money. So the story got better and maybe easier to pass on this thing. But there might be challenges raising capital in the next few months because people might have lost money in stock or lost their job, whatever it is. But eventually it will come back. The people will remember this. They know the value of passive income more than before. I'll continue the value adds, the de-value adds and new construction strategies into the multifamily.  James: Got it. Is there a proud moment in your life that you think you're really, really proud that you cannot forget? I mean, until now, I mean, of course you're going to do a lot more things right, but until now when you started this business. Rama: Yeah. The first 20 unit deal, when we actually renovated this thing, I really felt happy. It was actually really bad property. The roofs were really leaking and everything; the tenants were bad, the backyard, everything was all trashed and completely, we re-profiled this thing. We did maybe more than 70% returns on that. The manufacturer, that's one thing. Overall the transformation that you do kind of really was proud moment for me and also the land development deals that I'm doing. It was 18 months of effort for us to get these 97 units a town home project, we closed it in February. So I was really proud of that new development site.  James: Got it. So you're like moving from one domain to another domain. That must be a happy moment. Why did you move to development?  Rama: As I said, I like this North Carolina, Austin, Atlanta hot markets because I would rather do it in this market, but there are no deals out there in a sense too expensive. You know Austin? All seventies and eighties property itself is so expensive. I would rather build new but there are unknowns. There are risks for new construction. It's not that easy to hazard zone. James: [32:54unclear] building, if it's [32:57unclear]. Rama: Everybody will be building, it has its own staff but overall I want to be patient to find the right deals and find the right construction partners, find the right type of investors. Not everybody will be interested in new development. You want cash flow. You're not going to get cash flow. There are a lot of risk also. You might lose your capital also in that because there are no assets.  James: You have to go to so many entitlement process and city approvals and all that.  Rama: Exactly, there are red tapes involved, there are so many things involved but I would in a market like Austin or North Carolina I would rather to build than buy a seventies or eighties product. That was the main reason for me to get into new development because I liked the market, what I can do in this market because I love North Carolina, I love Austin, I love North Atlanta. What I can do in these markets from a Real Estate perspective, the only answer for me is the new development.  James: Got it. Interesting. So tell our audience how to get hold of you? Rama: Yeah, you can reach out on my website is zovest.com; you can reach out at rama@zovest.com and I'm active in a lot of Facebook groups, you can reach out to me there as well.  James: Awesome. Thanks Rama for coming in. Happy to have you here and happy that you add a lot of value to our listeners. Thank you.  Rama: Thank you, James. Thank you for having me.

James:  Hi, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieved  Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have Bruce Petersen, my buddy from central Texas and in Austin too. So, Hey, Bruce, welcome to the show. Bruce: Thanks for having me. It's just going to be a blast. This will be the first person I've done a podcast with that I actually knew before the podcast. James: Good, good, good. So let me just make sure I introduce Bruce properly. So Bruce owns like almost 940 units as a GP, he's the operator. He focuses a lot on Austin and San Antonio and he has done overall almost 1100 units. And how long have you been in the industry, Bruce? Bruce: Started my education in 2011. I bought my first 48 unit property as a syndicated deal back in 2012. James: Okay, awesome. So tell our audience before becoming a multifamily syndicator what were you doing? Bruce: Well, like we talked a little bit before we started here, I'm a college dropout. I'm the guy that did not thrive in a formal education environment. It was sucking the life out of me. So I dropped out of college, fell under retail because you know, I don't have a degree, there's not a whole lot open to me unless I want to start my own business. And back then, I had ideas but nothing formal. So I went into retail and I did that for 18 years. I quit working for other people at the age of 43 in 2000, I guess it was 13, I guess. Well, no, 2010, I think. And just started looking around and trying to figure out what to do with my life. I did a Google search to find somebody to help me invest in real estate because I didn't know how to do it. And I got very lucky and found a really good mentor. She helped me through the process on the first one, even a little bit on the second one. And you know, we've been off and running since. James: Got it. Got it. So, you have like almost 940 units. I mean, did you expect Covid-19 to happen and cost this recession? Bruce: Did I expect it? Of course, I expected it. Nobody saw this shit coming. This is that whole Black Swan thing, right? That Holy crap, this is probably going to make 2008/2009 look kind of small. I'm not worried, honestly, I'm not Chicken Little, I'm not a pessimist. I'm not a doom and gloom guy. I'm the eternal optimist. We're gonna make it through this without question. Things are a little dicey right now. What kind of collections are we going to have for the month of May? I'm not sure. People were worried in April, but April turned out to be pretty good. We averaged about 95 to 96% across our portfolio o we're fine. May, we're already starting to see a prepaid rents being made now. This is April 29th, right now, that we're recording this, but we're starting to see prepaid rents come in like we normally do. So I think we're going to be okay. James: Yeah, I mean, we were worried about April payment. Now we are going to May 1st week, right? I mean, next week I guess. Well, this week we are going to May 1st, so it's just crazy. So hopefully things doesn't change. And did you do anything different in your property that you have ensured that everybody's taken care of and was paying on time and you know, what did you do differently right now? Bruce: Yeah, just like you, I believe you have your own management company as well as we have our own management company too. So we're on the phone all the time with our staff, first and foremost, making sure everybody is healthy; both physically and mentally. I gotta make sure that we are the voice of call for our staff right now to make sure they don't get panicked. If they feel panic or concern coming from me as the leader of this thing, we're all doomed. So that's the thing. I'm an eternal optimist anyways, but I'm going way above and beyond to make sure that they feel we got this under control, guys. But you know, outside of, you know, making sure everybody's safe, we have closed all of our offices, you know, we're the whole touchless thing you're hearing about everywhere. We do self-guided tours. We've done virtual tours for leasing. We're still leasing, right? One of my properties, we've actually leased more in April than we did in March and that blew me away. We leased probably about 25 to 30% more in the month of April than we did March. So that was really surprising. James: That was surprising in one of our properties. We virtually list more than when they were in the office and we were joking, Hey maybe we don't need staff in the office Bruce: We haven't gone that far but... James: The prospects are running away because we do face to face, maybe we should do everything virtually. Bruce: Well, it's funny that we're rethinking a lot of things in this industry right now. What do we really, really need to do our jobs effectively? You know, just like all industries, all companies, you know, not so much for us, but companies that go to an office every day. How big an office do I really need, cause it looks like maybe my staff can truly work from home? So there will be things that change after we come out of this. So it'll be exciting. I think we're going to be better off for it. And a lot of people think, yeah, I'm a nut for saying stuff like that, I'm naive. I think we will be better off. It's going to take some time to get to that point but once we do fully recover, I firmly believe we're going to be better off as an industry, as a country, and as a world, honestly. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go down to the market and submarket and all that. Right? So why did you choose Austin and San Antonio? Bruce: I live in Austin. It was easy. My mentor taught me to buy something for your first deal that you can get to within an hour, hour and a half, maybe. And I thought, well, it's not much closer than 10 minutes down the road from my house. So I bought down the street from my house. James: And it's an awesome market by itself, Texas and [06:12 crosstalk]  Bruce: Austin's a little...well, I guess a lot of major cities are like this, but I live in a really nice part of town, but I'm only 10 minutes away from my properties, which are kind of a much more working-class area, we'll put it. But that's why we decided to buy here because it was a great market and it was right down the street. And then we branched out to San Antonio. Same thing. We can get to it within an hour and a half. My regionals can get back and forth easily. There are no worries there. So it's worked out very well. You know, we happen to be in one of the hottest parts of the country to buy and it happened to be my backyard. James: Yeah. Yeah. I was looking at the numbers published by CVRE talking about cities, which was performing very well before the Covid-19 and Austin is number one, so it's crazy out there. So what do you think the difference is between Austin and San Antonio? Bruce: Austin? I'm more profitable here, almost, always. San Antonio does well for us, but we're almost always more profitable in Austin. The pocket we've always bought in, in Austin is an incredible pocket. You know, I've got a studios going for over 900 bucks and it's in Rundberg and the Moore. If you Austin, that's by big city standards, it's not a dangerous neighborhood, but by Austin standards, it's one of our rougher neighborhoods. But I've got studios going for over 900 bucks. I've got three bedrooms. I'm the only one in the submarket that has a three bedroom but they leased for as high as 1749. So, we do better in Austin. We prefer Austin again cause we live here, but we have higher class properties down there. We have B plus properties in San Antonio. We've always had C to C plus properties in Austin, but they've been more profitable. James: Got it, got it. I mean you are similar to me, right? I mean we have our own vertically integrated company. But how did you structure your company in terms of staffing? Bruce: Well, first of all, and a lot of people don't understand this, especially people first getting into it. The management company owns the employees. And I hate to use the word own because that sounds, you know, like they're just animals or you know, they're just numbers. They're human beings that we love dearly but they do work for the management company. They do not work for the properties at all. So a couple of things there that now, I'm free to move people from property to property as I see fit. If they're owned by that property, that's one specific investor base. This is the same investors that invested in the other property down the street. So it gets a little weird moving salaries and people around for property to property but we don't have that problem this way.  And then secondly, with the PPP, the Payroll Protection Program that they rolled out that not many people that I know guys cause it all filled up with who's Chris hub. But what happened is a lot of people were told that, look, if you're a GP and that's your only exposure in multifamily, we're not going to support you with those PPP and this is an investment for you. Oh, but I have a management company so I have an actual functioning business on top of an investment so I get to submit for the PPB through my management company and I didn't have any problems. So that's the way we structure it and it works very well by having everybody under one umbrella too instead of spread over the properties. I have more employees in that one company so I can get better insurance rates as well.  James: Got it, got it. What about in terms of like you and the site management stuff? I mean one of the roles that you do, I think, I believe you have original, I'm not sure whether you have a VP of operations or not and then going down to the site staff, how did you structure it? How did you do your split off with roles and responsibilities? Bruce: So in the beginning, like all entrepreneurs, when you start a business, you got a new company. We wore every hat and my wife and I, every single hat and then we had the onsite staff. So we've never done the onsite work. We've always bought large enough to afford a onsite staff. But then as we started to grow, we started to bring in, we've got bookkeeping now in-house. We've got a regional manager in house. We have a director of operations, but not a director of operations, he's actually an operations manager. He's doing all the back-office work. He helps set up vendor contracts. He renegotiates vendor contracts that people are having issues. He works somewhat as our tech guy also. So that's the way we've laid it out.  And then Stephanie, my wife and I, we are basically the two people that provide direction, leadership, and vision and make sure our culture is exactly where we want it to be. So day to day, like boots on the ground, we don't do a lot of that anymore, but we're always involved every single day; digesting numbers, making decisions based on reports, walking properties, make sure everything looks right, making sure rehab projects are going as planned. But again, day to day operations, we don't do a whole lot of that anymore. James: So do you think that owning this own property management company is a good thing? Do you like it? Bruce: I actually love it, but as many people will tell you, and I know that you're thinking of this now or I shouldn't put words in your mouth. It's a bitch; it is. You're always dealing, you know, it's a transient industry, people are always quitting. You're always losing people. You're having to let people go, unfortunately, sometimes. So it's just this never-ending cycle of replacing people. But this is what I've done my whole life. In retail, I was always in a leadership position, so I'm used to hiring and firing and firing is not fun but sometimes you have to do it, but it's the hardest thing that we do, without question. The construction company is not that bad. It gets frustrating sometimes dealing with subcontractors and the asset management company, you know, that's pretty, pretty easy, relatively speaking. Yeah. It's the management company that's a pain in the butt sometimes. But I love my employees though, so I love having it. James: Yeah, it's a huge turnover, in the property management company and you are like hiring and firing. Sometimes we think we just keep on hiring and firing, you know, what else are we doing? So finding the right person is always the hardest. Bruce: Yeah. And finding the right person that even...so I just got word that one of my property managers, yesterday, late in the afternoon, sent an email to her regional manager and say, look, I'm giving my two-week notice. This woman is spectacular at her job. She runs an incredibly profitable property for us, but she's got some medical issues within her family; not her, her husband, her mother, and her father all have medical issues right now so she had no choice. First, I've got to go, I'm sorry. So, you know, even good people have things happen beyond their control and there's more turnover that we've got to deal with now. But it's fine, we'll get through it. James: Yeah, it's crazy out there. And what about underwriting? Do you get a lot of deals off-market or from brokers? I mean, before this, pre-Covid, we're not talking about Covid. Nothing is happening right now. Bruce: Right, right, right. I've gotten a few things sent to me off-market, but for the most part, all my deals have been fully marketed properties. You know, you're plugged in with the big brokerages in town. CVRE, ARA, HFF, JLL, those guys. So you know, usually they're fully marketed deals, but yeah, I do all my own underwriting. I'm a one-stop-shop. And I think that you and I were taught a similar process and there's nothing wrong with the way everybody else seems to be being taught today, but it's not the way I do it. You put 400,000 billion trillion people into your GP because nobody could raise 5 million bucks, but everybody can raise 12. So if everybody gets together a raised $12 an hour, first of all, you're going to paying yourself because you're probably doing this illegally. But secondly, you're giving away the whole pie. I want the pie for myself. You know, if I got a 20% promote and I carved it up amongst five or 10 people, all of us are getting that much. It's more work for me but I get the whole pie and I'm fully in control. So yeah, we do everything ourselves. James: Yeah. Nowadays, I see syndication being put up by like six people, seven people and sometimes 10 people, and there's more than 10, I've seen a lot. And there's no way 200 or 300 units, you need that many people to manage the assets. You probably need like one maximum two. And maybe the third, maybe the other half a person to do investor relationship. But that's like, I really want to say investor relationship person nowadays. Bruce: Right. Well, you make a good point though that you still only came up with three people because legally, right, you notice, they have to have a legitimate job in your general partnership. You know, how can you justify 10 different jobs for people? Do you get assigned these investors? You get assigned Mr. GP number two, the toilet rehab; how do you do that? Yeah. It's just too complicated. One at a time, build your own database and raise your own money. James: Yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy. So in terms of value, and I'm sure you do a lot of interior and exterior value add and all that. What are the most valuable value-adds you have seen between interior and exterior? Bruce: So I'll start with ROI, right? So the biggest return on investment project I've done to date is we kicked out everybody's favorite company, CSC, right? The company that would manage our laundry rooms for us, and they didn't manage anything. They put a little washer dryer in there, they barely came out to service it. They'd come out sometimes to collect and you sometimes get checks. They hold...it's just a nightmare. So I was at a month to month situation when I took over this asset, and about a year and a half in, I decided, you know what, we're going to buy our own units. And we spent $40-42,000, something like that, to buy our own units. We took our monthly laundry income up from 1,450 bucks a month, to $6,000 a month. My ROI is well over 100% and it improved the value of my property by about $900,000. So not everybody's in that situation because you get into those ironclad contracts that you buy from the seller that you bought it from, and you're stuck with that contract until it runs its course and those are 10 year contracts, almost always. So I just got lucky there. But that's been the most profitable one I've done so far. And everybody knows to have laundry on-site, but I think a lot of people are hesitant to do it themselves. It's really not that hard. James: Yeah, it's not that hard. I mean, yeah, if I can, I'll buy it myself; if I'm not under contract and I'll do it myself. And you are right. Actually that's one of the...in fact, it is the highest valuable value add because on one of my properties, we spent like 31,000, we're making like 2,500 per month. That's a lot of money. Right? And you're spending 38,000 and you get like millions of dollars in value increasing. Right. Bruce: Exactly. Yeah. It's incredible. James: And you're right. The company never come and service. It's hard to get. And they steal money as well sometimes. And they are hard to negotiate the contracts. Right? So why wouldn't we do that? So very interesting. So I want to talk about your book because you're going to be launching a book. Hopefully, I can align this podcast launch with the launch of your book. Let's talk about your book because a book is very hard to write and why not talk about it. Bruce: Okay, so this came up on another podcast that I'm working on getting booked onto and they're like, okay, help me understand it. You said you're a college dropout and you wrote a book. How the hell do you write? Look, I barely know how to use a library, but I know how to pay somebody that's really good at pulling information out of my brain, putting it in a book form. And now, I can go through and kind of red line and say, that's not the way I speak. So to be fair, I did use a ghostwriter and many people that write books, they use a ghostwriter. But that's what I did. I paid somebody a fair amount of money, I'll be honest, but it was a skill that I didn't possess. So I knew enough that it was something I couldn't do and I knew I had a book that I needed to get out. It was important for me to get this book out and so I reached out to some people to help me write it. And it's taken about nine to 12 months, but we're finally about to launch. The launch date is May 5th so things are going really well so far.  James: So you're doing a reveal the title of the book? Bruce: Am I allowed to cuss on your podcast?  James: Yeah, absolutely.  Bruce: It's syndicating is a bitch and other things you haven't been told.  James: Syndication is bitch and other things? Bruce: Yeah, 'Syndicating is a bitch and other truths you haven't been told.'  James: Wow, that's awesome. Yeah. That's something people think real estate is so easy, right? Syndicating real estate is so easy. Right? So can you talk about some of the most carriers stories from the book or you want to hold on to people?  Bruce: No, no. So I'll start by kind of say, I said I had to get this book out. Let me tell you why I wrote it and then we'll go into a couple of stories. You know, we've all been to real estate conferences and expos and two-day seminars and all this stuff. And the stuff that they're teaching from this stage, it's all legitimate stuff and these are good people teaching it and giving you basically a two-day sales pitch or you know, a sales pitch at an expo, whatever it is, they're almost always selling something to either try to sell their program, their education to you. And again, I firmly believe these are good people and they've got a good product, but you're only hearing for the most part. There are some out there that are exceptions, but you're only hearing the dog and pony show. You're only hearing about the rainbows and lollipops, the unicorns. I'm going to do this. And yesterday I'll be a billionaire.  Okay, that's not going to happen. This is hard. What we do is hard. You know, we make mistakes. Things that come up that we never saw coming, there's no way we could have known they were coming so things surprised us all the time. So I wanted to be the guy...again, let's think about the person pitching from the stage that they tell you the truth, the scary stories, the arson, the dead guy in your pool, losing 5 million of your investor's money. If they tell you that stuff, I'd say 50% of the people that would've signed up, would go, ooohhh, no. I don't want to do this. So it's not in their best interest to give you the story. Again, I don't believe they're lying, I think everything they're teaching is legitimate. But my book is pulling back the curtain to show this is every bit of the step in how to syndicate a deal. Everything. I laid everything out. You don't need a course but I want to tell you some scary stories along the way and we'll laugh together. I cussed a little bit in the book too, but I want people to understand, most people that I think they can do what we do and not that I'm brilliant, I'm not brilliant, I'm a college dropout, but most people shouldn't do it.  Most people don't have the intestinal fortitude to do this because it is very difficult. It's very stressful. There's a lot of work involved. But yeah, I just want them to know what they're getting into before they try to do this. Many people, I'm hoping, will read the book and go, okay, thank you for putting this in a book. I now know I don't want to do this.  James: I think you're going to just create more money raisers out there because most of the money raisers are raising money because they don't want to be an operator. Bruce: Right. James: Being an operator, you're absolutely right. It's a really, really hard job and nobody talks about it. Because most of the people who are taught, they are not even operators. They're more marketing arm off the operators. Right? Bruce: Yeah. And that's another reason I don't want somebody else raising money for me. I'll show you my deal, Mr. Money raiser but I don't know what you're out there saying on my behalf. Are you making weird promises that I can't back up? And yeah, so that's another reason I just don't like using them myself. James: Yeah. And that's why even in my book, Passive Investing in Commercial Real Estate, I talk about make sure the passive investor, whoever you're talking to, are they the backbone of the deal or not? The operators are the backbone, not the money raises. I mean there's nothing wrong about raising money for investment. You actually showing the parts to real estate investment but the passive investor needs to understand that they have to really understand who's behind the deal. And a lot of times people behind the deal are not really on the spotlight, they're somewhere far away. And a lot of times the money raiser doesn't even want to show them because they're worried that they go directly to that. Bruce: Right. And I've actually had some times, you know, I've had people say, yeah, I was going to invest in this deal, but then I asked the syndicator who the actual operator was and they, Oh, wait a minute, how do you not know? James: There are too many layers, I guess. Bruce: Exactly. They had no idea who they were raising money for. They were raising money because I get a cut, you know, which probably again is being done illegally if you don't know who you're pitching a deal on behalf of. So yeah, there's just such a mess out in the industry right now. James: You know, there's this concept called sub syndication now. That within a syndication, there's sub syndication and within the sub syndication, there are many layers in between. And yeah, I dunno. Bruce: Or they raise money as a syndication and then take that money that they syndicated to put it into a syndication. That's too complicated. There are too damn many layers. No thank you. You're a great guy. You're doing good by your investors, but I want no part of you raising money for me, just no. James: Yeah, that's different from fund to fund. Fund to fund is where even the fund, I mean this is probably the SEC lawyers can talk about it, but the fund itself will have PPM and there's another fund that has a PPM. Right. But that is different. I think that's legal, right? Bruce: Yeah. There are ways to do it legally without question, but I really feel many people aren't doing it legally. James: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure why people want to walk the gray line. I mean if you get caught, I mean you can be in very big trouble, right? Why do you want to walk the gray line? Why? Bruce: Well, the same reason Bernie made off existed. People make really bad decisions chasing dollars and I don't want to take time to build up the multiple thousands of people on a good, robust database of investors. I don't want to take the three to five years that that's going to take so I want to shortcut it by bringing in one of these other people in. And I don't really know much about them, but they said they could help me raise money for my deal. And it just, and then you got the people that are out there raising thinking, I don't have to do anything except just pitch somebody on a deal. That's my involvement. You know. So I hate to say these things cause it's kind of harsh, but because I know a lot of these guys that I think some of them it's just laziness and others, it's greed. James: Yeah. So who do you target? Who should be reading this book? Bruce: Basically. And that's important too. Cause I don't teach you how to invest in real estate. I'm assuming if you're trying to look into syndication, you're already investing in real estate. So I don't need to take the time to teach you how to invest in real estate. So somebody that's a single-family rental investor or maybe a flipper or maybe they bought some small apartment complexes themselves, somewhere between a five 12 maybe 24 units but they're not getting to the scale that they want to be able to hire staff or full-time staff or better quality staff so they're looking for a way to try to, you know, grow exponentially but safely. So it's those people, I think. It's the people that are already in it but they want to take it to the next level. Cause again, I'm not going to teach you how to do a spreadsheet. I'll do a proforma. There are other ways for me to teach you that but that's not what this book is about at all. James: So this book would basically tell you all the hard part of doing a syndication and is it just catered to multifamily or is it any other commercial...? Bruce: What I say in the book is and I probably stole this line from Jean Drawbridge, right? My attorney, my syndication attorney. But look, you can syndicate a Snickers bar. A syndication is basically just everybody pulling their money together to go make a purchase. That's it. Then you have a security definition and there's a word too, but syndication is we're just going to put our money together, go buy something. That's what a syndication is. So I do talk about that in the book, but I also say, but we are going to talk about multifamily syndication because that's my experience. But yeah, you can go out, most, I would guesstimate, I've seen stats about this, but I'm going to try to remember of all the major purchases in the nation, not in Austin, not at San Antonio, but in the nation, across every industry, almost every single one of them were done as a syndication. It's very rare that one person will put all the money in for a deal and buy it by themselves. Talking about us buying the Dallas Cowboys, you know, investing in a restaurant, anything, almost everything is a syndication. So yeah, you know, anybody can do this intellectually and if you can master the art of a syndication, then, again, you can syndicate anything but I'm talking to you about all the individual team players you need: your attorney, your real estate attorney, your syndication attorney, your bookkeeper, your management company, the broker, the mortgage broker. I tell you exactly who you need exactly when you need them, what you could expect to pay them. And then, I give you the whole rundown of your 60 to 75 day purchase.  What does that close process look like? I walk you through your due diligence period of 20 to 30 days, and then after due diligence, you're wrapping up your loan. I walk you through everything. So I want you to know how to do this yourself. You probably still need a mentor, honestly, because a book can only do so much, but at least I'm giving you the blueprint. James: And where is it available?  Bruce: It's going to be audible. It'll be Amazon. It'll be Barnes and Noble. It's going to be everywhere, everywhere books are sold.  James: So that's going to be on May 5th, right?  Bruce: May 5th James: Yeah. Are you the one who writes the book in audible? Bruce: No. I wanted to, but my ghostwriter said, Bruce, look, we'll do whatever you want. You're the client, but I'm telling you right now, do not do that because you've never done it. She said, you've got a good voice. You're a very good communicator, but you've never done this. It's going to take you forever to get through it because you're going to screw a lot of things up. You're going to get frustrated, you're going to get pissed. I know you. It's like, Oh, okay. So I had somebody else read it for me, but the next book or two, I hope to read my own book because again, I think I have an energy that somebody just reading it is not going to have, so I'm hoping to read my next book myself, but we'll see. James: Got it, got it. What is one advice that you would give to passive investors who are looking to invest in syndication? Bruce: Well, I tell them that, first of all, you're investing in a business. You're not buying into real estate. You're investing into a business that happens to buy real estate. That's it. Just like any business you ever invest in, things can go wrong, things will go wrong, and if you can't handle, maybe we have a hurricane or a tornado or a fire and I can't send out a distribution or Covid, I might not be able to send out a distribution for one, two, three, four quarters until I get an insurance check back in or Covid until the economy opens up. I might want to be able to send the distribution for a while. Long term, our trajectory will be up, but you know between now and then, we're going to do a little bit of this. And if you can't stomach that, if you're going to lose your mind, if I say I can't send you distribution this quarter, do not invest in this deal with us because no matter how hard we try, how good we are on the front end and due diligence, things are going to happen, things are going to come up. So if that's not you, then please be self-aware and don't invest.  James: Got it, got it. So let's go to a bit more personal side, right? Why do you do what you do?  Bruce: Why do I do what I do? First of all, I worked in retail for 18 years and that sucked. I thought it was fun until I realized, this really sucks.  James: You must be happy right now because retail has crashed.  Bruce: Retail is totally destroyed. Exactly. But it's fun. The biggest thing...I would say, the most fun I have is also the thing we talked about that's the hardest. It's working with the employees. It's watching them grow, watching, you know, developing them, being a leader to them, and then having. Part 2 James: Okay, go ahead.  Bruce: All right, so you asked, why do I do what I do? Again, it's for my staff. I like communicating with the staff and working with the staff, but also, you know, you always hear people talk about, you know, we're in the business of creating safe, clean, nice places for people to live. You know, we did a school supply drive at one of our lower-income properties for three years in a row before we sold it. And these are people that can barely afford to pay their rent, to be honest. Right? They barely make ends meet. And so, we decided we were going to buy all the kids - there were 87 kids on this 120 year property. Who knew it'd be that many, but we bought backpacks for all the little kids. We bought all their school supplies. We reached out to the schools to say, give me the school supply list for each grade at each of these schools. We provided all that for them, had them come into a vacant unit. They walked in the door, got some pizza. At the front, my daughter standing in the kitchen, handing out pizza, they walk to a table where my wife and our property manager was handing out the backpacks. Then they left that room and went into one of the bedrooms where my autistic adult daughter was in there. She was participating too and she was giving them their bag of supplies that they could now put in their backpack and they walked off. And it's that stuff that, you know, money's one thing, returns are another thing. It's really making a difference in somebody's life. And I know that sounds cheesy and kumbaya crap, but it's true. You know, I cry fairly often in this business because we do get to make a difference. Now some people, you could give them a free car and they bitch because they have to wash it or put gas in it. Give them a bright, shiny new puppy and they're pissed because they got to feed it now. So some people are just miserable people; they're just mean, they're mad. But most people really do appreciate when they can see that you are really in this with them and you care for them. And that's the real good part. James: Got it, got it. Yeah, it's definitely a fulfilling journey helping our residents and at the same time taking care of employees as well while providing returns to your investors. You are impacting multiple level of hierarchy there. And is there any proud moment in your career that you can never forget throughout your life? I mean, this moment I'll never forget it until I die. Bruce: You said proud. Now, do you mean with respect to a staff member or attendance or like a personal achievement?  James: Anything. Bruce: Well, selfishly, right, we've talked about school supply drive. That's probably the best thing we've ever done. That was my wife's idea. I owe her all the credit for that. It's phenomenal idea. But on a more selfish level, we were the rental owners of the year for Austin of 2016 for the national apartment association in 2017 and we were the Realty multifamily investors of the year for 2019 so that's been cool for me. Because they recognized those school supply drive things that we were doing so that's probably the coolest thing and the proudest part outside of just helping other human beings. James: Awesome. Awesome. All right, Bruce, why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you Bruce: So you can go to the website if you're interested. I'm apt-guy.com. I'm basically the apartment guy. You can follow me on Instagram. That's the social media I try to stay the most active on it's apt.guy or Facebook,  the APT guy. If you're interested in the book, again, there'll be on the first page of the website. It'll tell you how to get it. Again, it launches May 5th. So yeah, that's the best way to get ahold of me and try to follow along with what we're doing. James: Awesome. So the book is going to be an Amazon, I guess, right? Absolutely. Bruce: Amazon. Audible. It will be at all bookstores too. James: Oh, cool. That's awesome. All right, Bruce, thanks for coming. I'm sure everybody got tons and tons of value out of your knowledge bombs out there. Bruce: Oh, dude, I really appreciate it. Again, it was fun to do one with somebody I knew personally. James: All right. Bye. Bruce: Alright, buddy.    

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieved Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcasts. Today I have Jeremy Cyrier from Boston. Jeremy is one of my mentors, you know, I'm happy to have him here to talk about commercial real estate and Jeremy has been focusing on taxes and a lot of markets out of North East U.S like Rhode Island and you know Massachusetts and of course Texas and he have done a lot of bills, you know, I think he used to syndicate and now he's also investing as a passive investor and he focuses a lot on multifamily medical office buildings, retail and also office.  Hey, Jeremy, welcome to the show.  Jeremy: Hey thanks, James.  James: So, what's happening? I mean with all this covid 19, I know you're not in New York, but you're in Boston, which is, you know, almost near to epicenter there. I mean, what's happening with you personally and the commercial real estate business right now?  Jeremy:  That's a great question, we're all healthy, we’re home. I've got four kids, eight and under and it's a little crazy, but we're feeling just frankly blessed at this time to have a moment of pause in our lives to focus on the basics together. I think, you know, amidst all the tragedy that's unfolding around us, that's actually a blessing.  James: Yeah. Sometimes you know, you have to look for positive things in a, you know, whatever situation that we are in right now. Right? So tell me, I mean, about what are you seeing right now in the commercial real estate space? What was happening in February before this whole covid 19 and now we are in the middle of it. This is like almost in April, mid April to, you know, towards the end of April. What are you seeing right now that has completely caught your attention and create that "aha" moment for you?  Jeremy: Well, I'll tell you the interesting thing is we've been over the last three or so years saying, well, when's the recession coming? And we were looking for it, we're looking for leading indicators of a recession and here it is, it's upon us and it's more of a black swan event than really any of us would have expected to have happened to such a point where I've been talking to people about this being similar to our country being invaded and the government shutting down our economy is a defense mechanism. So, that's a pretty fascinating set of circumstances for us to be operating within right now in any business, let alone the commercial real estate space.  James: So do you see a lot of transaction has died down right now from what you were doing two months ago and  Jeremy: Yeah, so the, one of the things I do is I track data, so I live outside of the Boston market. I track that data very closely to see what the volumes look like and I'll tell you the 2020 Q1 data was up 75% in terms of sales volume over Q1 of 19 and so it was a very healthy start to the year but as soon as you go and you shut down the economy, all the volatility comes into the market and buyers start to pull back, lenders try to figure out what to do, who to lend to, how to lend and then you've got sellers pulling back saying, am I exposed here? Is this a dangerous time for me to be selling my property?  So, I'd say the first month of this event was really characterized by people trying to figure out what's going on, what's happening and this last month it's being characterized with more intentionality. Okay, here's what I'd like to see happen in three months, six months, nine months, twelve months. So the discussions are moving forward to a, I'm going to stop focusing on the hourly new cycle and I can see more of a two to three day new cycle and within that environment I can start to think strategically about what's next for me.  James: Got it. So do you see, so you're saying sellers are starting to look at more strategically, so, I know some people were talking about V-shape versus U-shape and I think some of the V would have changed to U right now, right? I don't know where the Nike swish. Right. So where do you think we are heading from March, 2020 you know?  Jeremy: Yeah. What's the letter of the alphabet are we going to see? You know, I listened to a great webinar, which was done with KC Conway and Eddie Blanton, Eddie's the president of the CCIM Institute. KC is the chief economist, they got on a webinar and I think you can see this; you can catch on YouTube and KC got on and he talked about the letters and he goes through the different shapes. Some of them I'd never heard of before, but they, like, what happens when you have a fiat currency recession, it's a Q, I guess but he said, you know, if early on we were hoping for a V he thinks it's going to be a W and I think he's right, I think the W is, we go through an initial dip, we have a recession now.  We start to rebound and recover, in the summer, people start to get outside and start to circulate and you know, return the flow of capital but we go back into a secondary recession in the fall driven by two primary things. One a concern over covid, you know, spiking again and the second being the, all the bad news that accumulated from March through September that shows up and we see a secondary recession as a result of what's happening right now. He said it's probably, and I think he's right, we probably don't start to see the volatility come out of the market until this time next year, 2021 and it's just going to be a matter of writing this, you know, writing things out the best we can in 2020  James: So, when you talk about the second V, right, I mean, I think first of the V and after that is another V which is coming in, which makes it a W? Right?  So are you saying the, from your perspective, do you think the second lowest point will be lower than the first low point or will be higher than the  Jeremy: I don't know but I know those low points take a lot of pain and they dish it out and so in our business, in commercial real estate investing, is it, people have been asking me: Okay, so when one of the deals are going to show up, you know, where are all these distressed sellers? Well, it takes time. Right?  James: What kind of time, why do you think we need to take time? Jeremy: Well, if you look back historically when we go through, we've gone through recessions and they happen just about every 10 years in the last four years. This one was a longer cycle than we'd seen.  So typically you see expansion kickoff and the third year of a decade, you see a transition year in the eighth year of the decade we go into a recession, then we come back up and out. This one didn't happen that way. I think it's because the Obama administration didn't push the FDIC to recycle assets like we'd seen in prior recessions, which extended the recovery period, it took longer to recover and expand in this last cycle, so as a result of that, the cycle lasted longer. I think it just was a longer period of protracted growth. So we have, you know, in the time frame of how things tend to play out, on the inside, you might see real estate deals two quarters after a Dow correction, but typically I see like a fourth to six quarter lag off the Dow.  And there's a reason for that, if you follow the money, so start with the Dow. What is the Dow? The Dow is a highly liquid market people are trading on nanoseconds and they're trading based on projections and perceptions. So from their companies, their shares are devalued, they, report, you know, revenue, they have revenues coming in lower, their earnings are lower, they start adjusting their P and L's, they lay off people. Okay, so unemployment comes up. Then they start to look at their real estate and they say, well, we need to reduce our exposure of real estate, we're not demanding as much square footage. Let's give some back. That goes back to the landlords. The landlords get the space back, they rent it for less or they can't rent it. They burn through cash?  Then they go to the bank and they say, hey bank, I'm having some issues. Bank says, okay, well let's work with you for a little while and see if you can get through it. That takes another three or six months before ultimately hits the point where the bank says you have to get out of the asset, we've got to take it. So, it's a slower moving asset class. That's one of the reasons why people like it. I mean, when you're buying, you want it to happen now you want it to be fast, but when you own this, it has less volatility than the stock market does and that's one of the reasons why people get excited about building durable wealth in the space.  James: Really interesting. So, I just want to touch back on what you mentioned just now. So you said during the Obama administration, the 2008 crisis, you said FDIC did not recycle assets as quickly as you know. So can you clarify that because that's completely new and I never learn about that. Jeremy: So, if you look back at the savings and loan crisis, this was back in the late eighties, the tax reform act. What happened was depreciation schedules were changed on how real estate was owned and written off. The tax world had distorted real estate evaluations, that combined with the junk bond industry and banks investing in junk bonds, chasing yield, okay, to make money. So, those two things together broke down the system and what happened was banks, the FDIC went into banks and said, we've got a lot of, your balance sheets are a mess, your ratios are out of alignment, we want you to call your notes and recapitalize. So, banks actually started calling owners up and saying, you have to pay us in 30, 60, 90 days. Pay off your mortgage. Well, okay, but when all the banks are doing the same thing, there's a problem. So owners were foreclosed on, they dropped their prices to liquidate their buildings. They filed bankruptcy and all this real estate ended up coming onto the bank balance sheets and the FDIC came in and said, okay, well now we're going to set up a corporation called the resolution trust corporation to liquidate all this stuff, flush it out. Okay? Establish the market bottom and then we'll come out of it. So, in 08', a lot of people were thinking that was what we were going to see. We had finance and demand induced recession and so we expected to see real estate defaults go back to the banks.  The banks would take the properties over, the FDIC would come in and say, push the stuff back out on the street, market down, recapitalize, and then we'll get back to business, they didn't do that. Instead what they did was they came in, they closed the really sick banks and they, a lot of them were set up as M and A deals. So they had other banks buy out the sick banks to dilute the balance sheets and then clear off the sick real estate. But what they ended up doing was they did a lot of forbearance agreements and they extended loan terms so that they could keep the owners operating the assets even through all the pain of the recession. So as a result of that, we never saw a real mark down or mark to market on all those properties. They weren't quote and quote recycled.  So if the idea was to keep all the real estate and everyone's in all the owner's hands, you saw fewer deals on the buy side and you just saw these owners just barely making it, holding onto these things, waiting for the economy to start to pick back up and for demand to come back into the space so they could recover the valuations and ultimately refinance the bank off the asset or sell the asset and recover or just break even on it. That takes a little while to do that. So I think that's one of the reasons why we saw this sort of longer cycle this time. I mean, a lot of people were looking at Trump's administration and his policies for continuation of this. I do think that was part of it but I think what we really had was, we had a long recovery and it took us until 2013 to really jump into an expansion phase from 08' but it wasn't like a jump, you know, it, it was kind of a slog to get there.  James: Yeah. You can see 2013 onwards and other property, the caplets not comprising a lot more compared to, you know, from 2008 to 2012 right.  Jeremy:  Yes. James: So do you think that's gonna happen in this market cycle where somewhere there's going to be, you know, FDIC going to come and do inaudible15:42  Jeremy: I don't, I kind of think that's not going to happen because if you follow the logic here with me. So country gets invaded, government shuts down the economy. People are forced out of business. Landlords default on mortgages. Banks have to foreclose on property. FDIC makes them and says; now you got to recycle the buildings. So if I'm the owner of the building that went through that whole horrendous experience, I'm looking at the government going, “Well, wait a second, you shut down the economy and now you're telling the bank to take my building away. How can you do that?” So I'm not sure that's the outlet on this one, I think the outlet's probably going to be just a market and it's going to be buyer demand and what buyers are willing to pay but it's going to be driven by two things over the next couple of years. One is who your tenant is, their stability and their durability to pay rent and number two, the lending resources that you have available.  My concern about this situation we're in is banks freezing lending, to attempt to reduce their exposure to the degradation of net operating income? That's a concern because they take the debt liquidity out of the market, when that happens, that slows transaction velocity down considerably and that will bring pricing down and that's, you know, if you're buying and that's the time to buy, when money's hard to get, when it's easy to buy and money's hard to get. James: Would you still be you have a challenge in terms of lending, right? The terms may not be as favorable during the peak tomorrow. Jeremy: But it's interesting, I think the lenders, when we go through recessions, they get picky about who they lend to, having relationships with your lenders is critical so your local banks are extremely valuable. They want to know that they've got strong hands operating these assets and using the money correctly. So those are elements to be very focused on in maintaining those relationships. It's the national banks that concerned me with inaudible18:30, so working on a deal last week and well as Fargo said, well, we're not doing it, we're not doing the deal, we're not lending period. Just shut it off.  James: Yeah. Except for multifamily, I presume all of the asset classes, like very less in terms of landing multifamily. I know Fannie and Freddie still doing it even though they have additional visa requirement, which is good for multifamily, but I think it's just hard to do any deals anyway right now because no one knows what's the price. Jeremy: What's the price? James: And no one knows what the cap rate, I definitely know Capita has expanded, right? Definitely not compressed as they, from what, two months ago but how much it has expanded, right? And who's going to take the risk of, what are they buying? Right? No one knows.  Jeremy: You get back to good old fashioned cash flow and I always tell people, there's always a market for cash flow in any market cycle, there's a market for cash flow. So the key is figuring out who the tenants are and in multifamily, where do they work? It amazes me when I talked to multifamily investors about their properties, I asked them, when your tenants fill out credit apps, you know, our rental application, you get their place of business, wherever they work, you should be cataloging every single employment center in your portfolio and finding out which industry sector they're in because you could, I mean for all you know, you might have 60% of your tenants working in the cruise industry. You just don't know, you know? So having an idea of what your economic footprint is by income diversity in your multifamily properties is really valuable information to have.  James: Yeah. Even multifamily near to airports, right? Where there's a lot of workers from airports and the airports are shut down, right? So that can be a bigger issue as well in terms of demographic, right? So yeah, we never really looked at it because, you know, but I recently looked at, it looks like we have really good diversified in my portfolio, but I don't think so many multifamily bias have done, you know, demographic analysis until now, recently, right?  Jeremy: Yeah, it's good to do.  James: Now, it's like, okay, you better know who are your dynamics.  Jeremy: Yeah, you want to know who is paying rent. So I have a question for you.  James: Sure. Jeremy: Okay, so multifamily deal making, where the deals are, where are they going to be. One of the things that KC Conway mentioned on his webinar that fascinated me was he said he expects to see hotels converted into multifamily housing and he also said, we may even see cruise ships become multifamily housing.  James: I just heard recently, I mean in fact, this morning I was listening to a podcast, by Robert Kiyosaki and Ken McElroy, who are talking about 10 years ago, someone was pitching this idea, let's convert the cruise ship into a moving condos and sell the condos as an apartment. I mean, if you heard about that, I was like, wow, really? Maybe that's coming back.  Jeremy:  It may, these crew lines they're going to have surplus cruise ships, aren't they?  James: Yeah, absolutely. Jeremy: I don't imagine demand will drop off for a considerable period of time and hotels.  James: Yeah. So let's go back to the tenant demographic analysis and the economy. Right? So, looking at what happened 2008, we did some kind of a benchmark with what happened then and what happened now but what happened now is basically the service industry and the people who want a paycheck, you know, paycheck to paycheck, right?  People are living paycheck to paycheck, they are the biggest impacted because everything stopped, right? So the people who have higher pay, who are basically living in A class or you know who are working on a normal, you know, highly paid job, they are working from home, they didn't lose their job, right? So, this is my thinking, right? My thinking is just like, yeah, I mean people, once everything opens back up, you know, the paycheck to paycheck is going to go back to work, right? But there's also going to be a global economy slow down because now this virus has impacted almost every country, right? The whole economy, the whole global economy is gonna slow down. So, my thinking is, you wanna multifamily class B and C, you know, where people are living paycheck to paycheck, they're going to go back to work and they might be a quick recovery, but people want class A, who are, you know, who are working from home, the company is going to have impact, right? That's where the Dow is going to have impact cause now your corporate profits going to come down because now you have a global economy slow down, right? So, I think even though now you're saying this is just my thinking, maybe we can just, you can figure it out whether you're thinking of the same, the class B and C is gonna is getting impacted right now. Class A not so much, but it's going to swamp later on, maybe in the second part of the W right? Or the V in the second.  Jeremy: Well it's starting already. If you look at, office work and employment and you read the news, you're going to see that companies that didn't lay off office workers are reducing their salaries.  James: Okay. Jeremy: And you're hearing about owners saying, you know, the owner of the company saying, okay, I'm going to waive my salary, everybody in the organization is going to take 10, 20, 30% pay cut with a floor, you know, not to be no less than. So following that logic, you're taking all that money out of circulation and it's not being spent, of course that slows things down so the question is how long you, you definitely have a slowdown, that's, inevitable but the second piece is how long those people stay employed? And are they able to get through this and operate at a level that with those cuts they can sustain operations and then start to pick back up when spending returns and it's going to be incrementally returning.  It's not, it doesn't just, this won't be a light switch so we're talking about W's and then I talk about it's a dimmer switch, you know the dials so you go and you can flip the switch in the room and the lights come on, but there's the round dial, you kind of push the knob and then you can adjust the, I think we're going to be doing that for a little while, turning the lights up, turning them back down, turning them back up and it's going to be partially in response to people hearing about hotspots or breakouts of covid until we have a situation where majority of the population has been exposed and we've processed the virus or we have a vaccine to manage the virus.  James: Yeah but this is going beyond the virus, right? So, I mean maybe the vaccine is already up in the next, you know, eight months or one year. I'm sure people are saying one to one and a half, but I'm sure the administration is going to cut a lot of red tape too, you know, well that.  Jeremy: Hey, they built a nuclear bomb pretty fast, right? They had to. James: Yeah because you know, during these times, everything is all hands on deck, right? So all the processes get thrown away or you know, there need to be some kind of leadership happening there but I think it's happening, but I just think the second order effect right on the overall slow down on the job losses on how the world is going to change. Right? And how it's going to impact commercial real estate. So, well, what do you think would be impacting a commercial real estate? Let's say, you know, you have experience in office, multifamily, retail. So let's go to each asset class and see, you know, what do you see it?  Jeremy: All right, retail, very, you know significant damage to retail. Okay? I mean, department stores are pretty much talking about the end of their era here this may be an extinction event for the department store.   James: So do you think if today we have a vaccine, what would the impact be if you already have a vaccine?   Jeremy:  If we had a vaccine, for the department stores? James: Yeah, for the department store for the retail industry. Jeremy: I don't know that they really cut, they survive longer, but this is devastating for them when Walmart, Target, Costco and Amazon are seeing 25 to 35% revenue growth, all that money is flowing, you know, flowing in different directions than Macy's and Lord and Taylor and Nordstrom's.  So the department stores are definitely, they were weak coming into this, this is terrible for them. General retail, you know, I think quick service restaurants like with drive-thru's come back very quickly, the drive thru is kind of an ideal service model for this environment where we'll be going through and coming out of and the cost hits a point, it's a low cost dinner, you know, dinner for the family, to go to Chick-fil-A, you know, and grab, you know, feed the family for 50 bucks. So quick service comes back quickly, I think some of the other sectors where we've got, you know, experiences, you know, it's interesting, services and experiences were really kind of the bellwether in this e-com impact on retail real estate but they're getting hammered and so you're going to have some service and experience spaces return, they'll reemerge from this and the weaker ones, they just won't make it back. They won't make it back, so it's, I think in restaurants, full service restaurants, maybe half of them come back from this. It's just going to be very difficult to reopen all those.  James: But don't you think someone is definitely going to buy that space? Somebody else that have the same vision as the previous owner. I mean, maybe the original owner is no more there, 50% have gone right because they kinda lost it. Jeremy: You're going to see new operators come in and it's, that's, look restaurant, full service restaurants, they can be recycled and you're going to have operators say, well we, you know, we made it through, let's open another location cause it's on sale. We can get the equipment and refurnish it and open and go. So there'll be opportunity there for new operators.  James: So the industry is not going away, it's just the operators are disappearing.  Jeremy: The operators that disappear, it's a slow recovery for them. It's a difficult recovery and the real estate; there will be some good restaurant real estate that will become available. It will happen. Okay, so I know retail, that's sort of my take on it. I wish I did. James: Are you seeing a lot of distressed sellers right now. I mean are you doing a lot of transactions right now?  Jeremy: No, not right now. I think it's early.  James: Yeah, I think it's still early. I think people are just riding through their cash flow. Just walk up and watching and nobody knows what's the price and nobody, not many people are distressed.  Jeremy:  Yeah. Multifamily, I agree with you, if you segment by class ABC, you look at the populations that are renting from those units. The A-class seemed to be more insulated because they tend to be professional, high-income office working  James: Those that work from home as well, right? Jeremy: Yep. The B's and C's tend to be more service level and they've got a lot more exposure in this environment. So, you know, they get laid off quickly, but they get rehired first because they're lower cost, the office workers, they get hit later and they, you know, they're slower to come back. I mean, what's that rule of thumb, if you've got, for every $10,000 in salary, it takes you a month to replace, to find a new job. James: This new ratio. Jeremy: I know this new ratio if it's true, but I've heard that. So the bigger question that I've got on multi-family is the suburban versus urban, we've been in an urban cycle the last 10 years.  James:Yes. Jeremy: And I've been. James: Explain that a bit, what do you mean by urban cycle? Is it people building more multifamily in the urban areas?  Jeremy: Yeah, it's the live, work, play, lifestyle, millennial, you know, millennials and baby boomers wanting to live in the city near where they work, walkability people that live in rich environments. There was a quote that I was reading today from Goldman Sachs and they're saying, they're expecting a flight of millennials to the suburbs from urban markets and it makes sense.  What does this suburb offer? Less density, more value for what you rent, you know, you may be working from home more so they may be making decisions about, well I could have done a one bed but I have to get two bed cause I need a home office, that's a consideration to take into or keep in mind and then there's just the overall comfort of, hey, you know, I don't want to be in downtown New York right now. That's not a good place to be, I want to get out to the burbs and just have some more space. So I think the idea of urban versus suburban is it's going to be a big topic here over the next four or five, six years.  James: Got it. So I think that's very prevalent in where you are, but you also buy in Texas, right? I mean, from what I see in Texas, everything is a suburban mid-rise apartment, not in style apartment. So I mean there is very people I know who buy apartments near downtown, even though they [33:34unclear]  Jeremy: Sure James: It could be depends on which market you're talking about.  Jeremy: Yeah, I agree with you on that. In Northeast, we have a very clear urban, suburban experience. You know, Texas, you guys just keep building rings.  James: Yeah, we have a lot of land here, right? So everything is garden style and [33:58unclear]  Jeremy: Yeah, as long as you got the water.  James: Yeah but there could be like tertiary market where it could be more interesting. I'm not sure it would be less density or not, I mean everything seems to be less density for me in Texas just because we have a lot of land here, you know, people move around pretty well, everybody, I guess so. Jeremy: Yeah, you got a lot of roadway.  James: Yeah. Could that also mean that there's a lot more investment coming from the coastal city to places like Texas or Florida or where  Jeremy: It could mean that, yeah. What's interesting about the last cycle nationally, the suburbs have been kind of out of fashion. So, it didn't have the same run up in value that the urban markets did so I started to see that the last couple of years where investors were starting to look at suburban markets and say, well, I can still get some yield there, so I'm going to go invest in the suburbs. This is now going to really bring that conversation to the forefront.  James: Yeah, I think that's why I like places where you are like Boston is called like gateway cities versus you know, places like where I inaudible35:17. Jeremy: Yeah. James: Suburban market, I would say so. Jeremy: Yeah. So industrial, I'm still bullish on industrial. I think we'll see some dislocation in distribution and port industrial, I don't know what the future looks like with China. I mean we import a lot from China through Long Beach and it goes to the inland empire and I think we're going to see some of that shift to other port markets as we start importing from other parts of the world but overall with consumer behavior shifting, it had already started before this. If there's been anything that's going to accelerate the demand for industrial spaces, it's this because you're going to have ghost kitchens, you know, restaurants that basically just, they're like catering kitchens that they just run full time, they have no seating and they deliver food, you know, basically meal prep. You're going to have more demand for online consumption and distribution and shopping, that's going to put more pressure on existing in industrial inventory, I sort of thought the industrial market was peaking in the last couple of years, but that may not be the case, there may still be some runway in that market.  James: So when you're talking about industrials, basically, warehouses where, you know, products made and distributed, I would say, right? I mean, I can see that with more manufacturing going to be coming in house right now, I mean, with all this, that's one shift that's going to be permanent.  Jeremy: Yeah.  James: Everybody knows that, right? So, do you think industrial would be the asset class that most beneficial from that? I mean, because I'm looking it’s going to be a lot more manufacturing factories coming here; I just don't know which assets.  Jeremy: Yeah and that's really, I mean, if you remember doing 102 in CCIM and we talked about basic employment. James: Yes, absolutely.  Jeremy: As soon as you start to see manufacturing coming back into the United States, that's going to be really good thing for our economy.  James: Correct.  Jeremy: It's going to really boost multifamily, a lot and it will help retail and it'll help office but you know, it's really a value, it's a power source, it's an economic engine for importing money into economies, local economies. So, I think industrial overall in terms of, if you're on the buy side, it's like you want to be really careful about industrial exposure to China, but the rest of the industrial story I think it's going to be a good place to be, I think it's going to be a good asset to own.  James: So, is industrial equaling to manufacturing factories.  Jeremy: Yeah, so manufacturing, flex R&D, so that's research and development, Warehousing, distribution, bulk storage, cold food storage. Just there, you're going to see that stuff cranking.  James: Cold food storage  Jeremy:Yeah, cold food storage. James: This is not the same storage that we are talking about now? Jeremy: No, we're talking about like freezer facilities that type of thing, yeah. James: Why is that? Jeremy: It's because people are going to be continuing to demand home delivery of food and you got to store it somewhere.  James: Well, I never seen one when I drive around, so I don't know.  Jeremy: Kinda funny looking, you know, if you, sometimes on the outside they're a little funny look.  James: Now, it's going to be looking nicer because it makes more money. So how do I position myself or anybody else listening? Let's say if I want to take advantage of this manufacturing coming in house right now. I mean, how would a commercial real estate investor should be able to position?  Jeremy: It's a good question. So you want to, you know, the main thing about manufacturing is you want to find buildings that have good characteristics for an efficient manufacturing operation. So grade level, you know, Celeste slab on grade buildings with ceiling heights in them that are preferably 16, 18 feet or higher, that have good loading access, you can get a truck, tractor trailer, multiple tractor trailers in and around the building to access it, plentiful parking for labor so typically you're gonna see, you know, one parking space per 800 square feet is kind of the building code standard for manufacturing warehouse but depending, you know, power supply, how do you have enough power coming into the property and utility services.  So you could probably, you know, you're probably going to be able to find some outlier properties that you can bring into that market and you know, convert over and, I mean, the other thing is you might want to be looking at retail and converting that to distribution, zoning is restrictive for that because typically municipalities don't like to see industrial uses in retail locations but you may end up seeing big box or department store or retail buildings that have those characteristics of what I just described cause a lot of them do being converted to that use, it could be manufacturing or it could even be distribution.  James: So which market should we be looking at to position ourselves for this kind of industrial asset class?  Jeremy: I think you can look at pretty much any market in the U.S, I think this is not a specific market, now if I, you know, I think you do this, you to follow that formula in any market in the U.S now if you want to do a, let's look at the demographics and the economic drivers in a market. You want to look for population growth, employment growth, that it's, you know, if there are more people move in there and live in there and it's growing, that's a good thing because people demand space.   James: Yeah. Well I mean the other way to look at it also is like, if there's already a manufacturing hub in that city or state, you know, that could be a good expansion place, right, if you find some assets around it. I guess  Jeremy: It could be, the other thing you're going to see are companies trying to find manufacturing redundancy. So if they've got a facility that goes down in their location, they can continue supplying from an alternate, which is, it's really interesting cause it's sort of contrary to what Gordon Gekko would tell us to do, right? Build shareholder value, become more efficient and be more profitable, do things faster and increase volume and the way you do that as you bring everything into one location and make it as streamlined as possible but now we're looking at a situation where, and this has been going on in manufacturing for a little while, customers demand redundancy because if there's an event or a disruption to a location, they want to make sure that they still have a continuity of supply chain.  And so they're getting what they need so that's even more important now than it ever was. So we'll see some of that. So I think you gotta kind of get into that world and talk to people and find out you know who's looking at bringing things home who isn't, and then start to think about the properties that they could be using and you might even have the opportunity to go out and pick up some land and put something on the land for someone.  James: Yeah. And I'm sure there's going to be some kind of government incentive to do that, right? Because now the government wants lot more manufacturing.  Jeremy: So I think so. Yeah. So office. James: Yeah, let’s go to office. Jeremy: You working from home, if you had a choice today to go to the office or work from home, which would you prefer? Is the question and I got to imagine a lot of people are saying, I'd love to get back to the office. I miss talking to people, socializing that's missed and I think the home office thing is great, but boy, when it's home officing and schools are shut down, it's really hard.  James: That's a good point.  Jeremy: This sort of experiment is, you know, forced home officing can companies do it? We've got a variable that shouldn't be there and that is the kids, the kids should be in school. But it's, I think people go back to the offices, but they, you know, offices may end up seeing a similar thought, which is, hey, instead of piling everybody on the train or getting their buddy into the center of the city to work, maybe we need to have a smaller office in the center of the city and then have some suburban offices, spread people out, improve their commutability and create redundancy in our workforce.  You know, with people being closer to their smaller offices. So I think that, I'm hearing that a little bit in the market now with people I talk to, I think that's something to keep an eye on that. So again, I kinda like the suburbs, I think there's an opportunity in the suburbs and office may actually be a suburban opportunity here.  James: Got it. So what you're saying is people are just going to go back to office. I mean, it's not going to die.  Jeremy: I don't think it dies. No. I mean if anything, you know, we've gone from, in the office space, I mean you see these offices where people are like in their benching and I mean I went into an office building and people were waiting in line to get in the bathroom, in an office building and the reason is that the building was built for more or less one employee for every 300 square feet and when companies come in and they go, we're going to be more efficient, we're going to get 1 employee in for 135 square feet, all of a sudden the bathrooms are overloaded, the parking is overloaded and that the buildings, it's too dense. The amount of people in there, it's not designed to carry that density. We'll throw a pandemic in the mix and the idea is for us to be six feet together in this world we're in right now. Maybe we're going to see that, you know, that office demand change where you know, I want to be able to shut my door to an office, I don't want to be at an open bench next to my colleague sneezing on my keyboard, you know, so that, I think we would go back to the office.  It's important, the nature of the office is to bring us together and for us to work and collaborate, share ideas, but also to have deep work time, need to be able to do deep work and we need to go somewhere to do that. So maybe it's not about packing as many people in and forcing them to assemble and work together rather spreading them back out a bit, providing some, you know, some work from home, some work from the office days, maybe your home two days, three days in the office. So I, this is a fluid one, but I think we go back to offices. I think it's how we do work. We can do it this way, you know, we can talk to each other, but it's not as fast in my opinion, information slower than it is in person.  James: Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I was talking to a doctor, Glenn Mueller, right? So I'm sure you know him, right? This was like two months ago when we're looking at all of the asset class and office was the opportunity it was going from, into the expansion cycle. Right? So, and I asked him the same question, what about people working from home? He said, well, you know, humans are social creatures, you know, they like to be together, right? And you're absolutely right about communication and deep work and all that, just so hard to do working from home. Right? So I think people are going to go back to the office, especially after the vaccines is [48:47unclear] right?  Jeremy: Yeah, I will make this prediction. So just like after 9/11, the U S government moved in security and defense. This is a healthcare crisis; I think the next decade will be a healthcare decade. We tend as people, we tend to overcompensate for a trauma that we just experienced so that we never have to feel it again and so I think we're going to see when we rebound from this, healthcare will come back very quickly because there'll be such a backlog of demand for everybody else who's not suffering from Covid but has a knee replacement or you know, an oncology treatment and everything, they're going to be there, they need to get in for services but we're going to have a situation where healthcare is going to be at the forefront of government decision-making, investment and in development of protective and planned responses to anything like this coming again. So I see that space is a very fascinating space to watch and get involved in as you see us start to come out of this and these discussions come to the forefront.  James: So how should we prepare for that opportunity too?  Jeremy: Well, it centers around the hospitals and if you follow a hospital strategy, they've been merging with each other to become more efficient as they struggle to operate profitably in a very narrow margin environment and one of the things they've done is they've expanded by going out into retail locations and creating outpatient and urgent care services that essentially become a feeder for the hospital. So I expect to see more of that because that's a lower cost way for hospitals to expand. Hospitals are very expensive and they tend to be constrained geographically because of where they were cited. You don't see a lot of just new hospitals being built around the country. They tend to have additions put on them. So as a result they expand out into multiple locations that become more like a hub and spoke model. So I'd be looking at anything in the healthcare space in the next several years. I think it's just going to be really good place to be.  James: So are you talking about like medical offices or you're talking about labs or life sciences Jeremy: Medical office, yes, I can't really comment on life science, I don't follow it very closely, it's so specialized, but I probably should know more being out of Boston cause it's just a center for it, I hear about all the time. I just kind of go,"...oh yeah, labs, ugh"  But, that I, anything with healthcare, I'm loving it in the next several years.  James: But even on medical offices, I mean, the tenants have a long lease terms, right? I mean, how would that increase the valuation of the property as a real estate investor? One is, we look at the cash flow, the other thing we want to look at value increase as well. Jeremy: Well, there's, it's durability, yeah, that's one of the great things that medical office offers you is 90% and higher renewal probability rate. The you know, historically it's been a recession, quote and quote proof, investment class, not this time. I mean, I was looking at data last week 42,000 healthcare professionals lost their jobs, were laid off. I mean, you go, what, no way.  James: Why is that?  Jeremy: Why is that? Because hospitals aren't allowing for elective procedures, urgent care only. So they're laying people off, it's a fiscal nightmare for the healthcare system right now. So they, that's short term, okay? There was the version, what is it, version three of the P we're on now that just came out and there's billions of dollars going to the healthcare system, which is a good thing.  James: Got it.  Jeremy: Good thing. So short term healthcare is volatile that may be the opportunity to pick up some property, I think that over the next decade it's going to be a wealth builder.  James: Okay, so you mentioned about some of the healthcare which is located in the retail centers and all of that become like a hub and spoke model. So that's like single tenant healthcare, right? Compared to a multi-tenant. Jeremy: It could be single tenant, could be multitenant. You might have a medical office building with four practices in it. Sure. Yeah.  James: Got it.  Jeremy: Yeah, I think those are really good investments.  James: Okay and it could be offices converted to medical offices.  Jeremy: Yeah, it could be. Yeah, I mean it's, I just looked back at 2001. I mean if you were in the like the metal detector, you know, security business in 2000, probably not really interesting. James: Right, like 2001 [54:48unclear]  Jeremy: Yeah, so that's what I see here. I'm like, this is going to be interesting, there's going to be an overreaction in healthcare. I think there's going to be opportunity there.  James: Could there be like construction of healthcare facilities like medical offices or do you think just buying new medical offices.  Jeremy: I think there could be development, we're early on that. I don't know that's anything that we're going to see probably for three years. I'm just following the trend, I'm kind of following how people are, what they react to and then where they go and for us to come out of this and not have a national discussion about how are we going to be prepared for the next pandemic.  James: Yeah. Jeremy: Yeah, it's going to happen and money is going to flow there and, and there's going to be a lot of pain and people are going to say, I don't want to do that again.  James: Yeah. Jeremy: I don't want to hear about ventilators next time. You know? And so, I think that presents an opportunity for investors to get in front of that now. James: Yeah. I'm sure for the next three, four years people are going to say we didn't want to have that healthcare problem again. Right? And I don't mind paying for this. Right? Some kind of thing. It's going to be a lot more investment. So I think medical offices would be a really good investment.  Jeremy: Yeah. I liked it before this and I like it even more after that. James: Awesome. Good. So what about other asset classes like self storage or mobile home parks and you know, what else is there, warehouse I think is probably part of the industry.  Jeremy: We talked about warehouse, hey, you know, self storage, kind of a maturing asset class in this last cycle but I think it's still very viable and it's a good place to be. You are going to have dislocation of residences the next couple of years so self storage is going to be valuable to people who need to store their belongings, mobile home parks, I mean, look, everybody needs a place to live and if it's affordable, you know, it's gonna work. So again, there I think I see an opportunity too. James: Got it. I think multifamily; we did talk to her in detail about it, right? Do you think there's going to be a lot of crash happening in the single family space because there's so much short term rentals, people bought a lot of short term rentals as second houses and probably right now there's no short term rentals happening.  Jeremy: Yeah, that's not so good like kind of the Airbnb, I mean you're sort of in the hospitality business there so yeah, those folks are gonna need to convert to long term or sell.  James: Correct. So I think there's going to be, you know, a lot of people, you know, giving up their second short term rental houses that way to the banks. It could be a lot more houses available I guess. Right?  Jeremy: Yeah. That could be an opportunity, you know, if you want to buy and rent or buy in rehab and then resell that space could have some volume coming through. Yeah.  James: Okay. Got it. Interesting, yeah, I mean, did I miss out on any asset classes? I think that's the more important. Jeremy: I think we got most of them.  James: Yeah and do you think we are going to be much better in terms of economy wise? Just because there's going to be a lot more base employment, which is manufacturing happening in the U.S. Jeremy: I'd love to see that, I hope our companies can come home with that and who knows, I mean with the unemployment rate being what it's going to be for a while and the wage growth that we didn't really see in the last 10 years, and we just lost on that, maybe there's an opportunity for us to employ people that otherwise we couldn't have a manufacturing basis to make it make sense. I don't know. I'll leave that up to the manufacturers to figure out.  James: Got it. So, I didn't want to forget one asset class, which is hotels, right? I'm not sure whether we went deep into hotel. So that's going to be, I think the hotels are really suffering right now.  Jeremy: Oh, it's terrible.  James: Right now.  Jeremy: When I hear 9% occupancy rates.  James: Yeah. Jeremy: That's bad news.  James: Yeah, that's crazy right now. So hopefully hotels survive through this downturn, I guess. Right?  Jeremy: Some will, look, we still need hotels.  James: Yeah, I know.  Jeremy: We still need them so they're the strongest, best located hotels will come out of this thing, others, you know, they'll fail and they'll either get bought at the discount and with a lower basis they can compete in the market and grow back out or you're going to see them reused for something else.  James: Got it.  Jeremy: That's maybe the multifamily conversion.  James: Yeah, if the city allows it of course, then they can be a lot of studios and efficiencies, I guess and I've seen that happening in some cities and some projects. All right, Jeremy, thanks for all the value, can you tell our audience and listeners how to get hold of you?  Jeremy: Sure. So you can check out our stuff on CREinvested.com, that's C R E I N V E S T E D.com, I've got an investment course there, that is available and if you ever want to chat with me, you can email me @jeremy that's JEREMY@creinvested.com  James: Yeah, Jeremy is a wealth of knowledge. I mean, he's also a senior CCIM instructor, right. So that's a lot of knowledge if we came in, absolutely, you will be a really huge value to connect with you and just to learn from you. So thank you very much for coming on the show.  Jeremy: Hey, thanks James, it's a pleasure. James: Alright.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing. Today, I've Cody Payne and Michael Tran from Colliers International out of Dallas market. Hey guys, why don't you say hi to our audience and why don't you introduce what you guys do? Michael: Oh, Hey everybody. Michael here. You know, we focus mainly on multitenant, mid-rise office buildings or industrial buildings or industrial parks. Anything between three to 25 mil is our typical range that we work on. Cody: And I'm Cody Payne and I work with Michael and that pretty much sums it up pretty well. We sell investment office and industrial buildings in Dallas Fort Worth. James: Got it, got it. So you guys are brokers, right? Do you own any of these as well? Cody: Yeah, actually we do, we actually just did a syndication not long ago where we pulled together a few investors and bought a portfolio of five office buildings down the mid-cities. And we've even done some development also. James: Got it. So office and industrial; nobody has talked about this asset class in the show. So I want to go really deep into how people make money out of this asset class because I'm a multifamily guy. I'm so used to multifamily and a lot of people knows multifamily very well. It's like seems to be like the only asset class out there. Right? But I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who's killing it in industrial and office. Right? So, I want to go deep into, you know, how an active investor would look at these two asset classes and you guys absolutely will be you know, giving a lot of value in this discussion. So let's start with industrial. Can we define what is an industrial asset class and how does it look like when I drive by, how can I say this is industrial and is there any different types of industrial that I need to be aware of when I drive by and when I'm going to look at something? Cody: Yeah, absolutely. So industrial is going to be, you know, your big box, tall, concrete warehouses that you'll see as you're driving along the freeway or in some other parts. These things can range anywhere from tenants utilizing just a couple thousand square feet up to a large shipping receiving warehouse that you'll see, that can be half a million-million square feet. A lot of things that I think a lot of people are familiar with is, seeing those tall, 24 36 foot tall concrete structures where a lot of 18 wheelers are backed up to that are loading, unloading, cross-docking and things of that nature. That's what your typical image of a warehouse industrial is. And a lot of people look for that and that's one of the key asset classes that a lot of investors are looking for right now. James: Well, so you said a lot of investors, I mean, it's a very relative term, right? And I'm not sure you guys know how much people invest in multifamily. So is that same equal in people investing in industrial and office or is it like coming from your knowledge in a multifamily is like crazily too many people and industrial is like a niche [03:26unclear] ? Cody: So the office and industrial it is a little more niche. I wouldn't say there's as many buyers for it as there is for multifamily. I mean, you, obviously there's a lot more multi-families than there are mid-rise office buildings, especially out here in Dallas, Fort Worth and even in Texas as a whole. But it's very niche specific. And so, that's why a lot of times you'll see a multifamily guy refer out if someone's looking at buying an office building or even vice versa. Because we won't sell a multifamily complex just because we're not as aware of it but the buyer pool is still very good. We get a lot of multifamily people, especially over the past three, four or five years, that have really started to hone in on the office industrial market as compared to my 10 years prior to that. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah. Even in my book, I mentioned that, you know, all these asset classes, they are somebody who's really good at these asset classes. And a lot of passive investors just look to, you know, seek to this kind of operators who are really good at industrial office or multifamily. There are people who specialize in this and they're really, really good at it so they have to seek for that operators. So that's good to know. It's very niche market. So, coming back to industrial, how do I identify a sub-market...how do I find an industrial, which is a really good, in terms of location, how do I say if I look at this building, I can say that this building is in a really good industrial location. How do I say that? What are the factors I need to look at? Michael: You know, one of the main ones nowadays is access. A lot of the logistics chains, they kind of make sure they can get the 18 wheelers in there, parked. That's why a lot of the users that are looking out that way, they're always making sure that they're centralized too. So like, let's say the great Southwest district here just South of DFW Airport; that's one of the biggest industrial hubs over here, you can get to almost any part of the metroplex within 20 to 30 minutes max. And then you'll have Alliance, which is in North Fortworth. I think that's a sleeper town that a lot of people overlook here but they're just building more and more bigger boxes up there. And it's due to 35 West Highway that goes all the way down to Austin, even down where you guys are at. So that's become another major hub press as well. And FedEx, Amazon they're all up that way. And you've got little pockets up in Plano as well which is probably about 30 minutes from the airport and they've got some major like Toyota is looking to move up that way. And they've got everybody else just following them over here. James: So do you look at, like for example, in multifamily, we look at household demographic, we look at median household income and income growth, job growth and all that. But it looks like industrial is different, I guess. Like you have to look at how convenient it is for the 18 wheelers to meet and compare and also seems to be some kind of adjacency with the certain key distributors like Amazon or Toyota. So is that key factors, I presume? Cody: Yeah, absolutely. And actually, we've got a map behind us.  James: So those who are on YouTube, you can definitely see the map. Cody: Yeah. James: To really, you know, talk numbers in terms of what? Cody: Just as the Dallas Fortworth airport right here. And this is the great South West district that Michael was talking about. This is where you'll have a lot of warehousing and a lot of it up North as well. Amazon's got a large center as well. So you've kind of have the same thing, which is growing a lot out here where Hillwood has their Alliance airport. And then the same thing back over here where Dallas load field is, there's a lot of warehouses over there and there's a lot off limits. So you know, a lot of these guys where we see a lot of tenant velocity and things of that nature are going to be closest to the airports because that [07:49unclear]  Fortworth because here and going to Fortworth and go to Dallas and go South and go North and they can receive from one of the largest airports in the world right here. James: Got it. So it's basically access to the airport and access to the highway and how can we get to go to other big cities, I guess, right? Fortworth, Austin. Cody: And they don't necessarily need highway visibility cause that's your most expensive parcel of land, but they need good access to it. And so having that nearby that airport, they've got access to I-20, I-30, 183, 360, and so that's a really good hub. And that's why that district is such a large district and continues to expand. James: Is there like a park, like an industrial park where the city or the government is allocated or is it like, is there random everywhere? Cody: They're more spread out. James: So there is no like tax incentive offered by any government or any cities, I guess. Cody: Well, yeah, certain cities will offer certain tax incentives. I know Dallas offers quite a few in certain areas and even if you start getting into like the opportunities zone areas and things of that nature. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. So, you talk in terms of industrial, in terms of square footage, right? That's what you said, or square footage and access, access is also an amenity. But I presume, what is the average price per square feet in terms of industrial buildings? Michael: So that is a very good question cause those can actually range anywhere between 50 a foot all the way up to, you know, building new. It also depends on the age of the building, ceiling height, [09:39unclear] in the building. So there's a lot of factors in industrial that you have to account for. How many docks as well. Dock high, grade level doors or are you familiar with any of these terms? James: No, no. This is all completely new. But it's important. I want you guys to share that level of detail because I want people to really learn how do you, cause I'm going to go to their underwriting later on. So that's going to features of the industrial, is that like a class A, class B, class C industrial buildings? Cody: Absolutely. Go over some of the rates that you see on some... James: Yeah. What are the class As? Cody: Are you asking for rental rates? James:  Rental rates and also buildings, right. I presume that's all correlated? Michael: Yeah. So rental rates, you'll see anything, depending, like I said, very niche-specific stuff. So like you'll see anything from $4 a foot all the way up to 10 and sometimes even higher and triple net or some of the newer industrial products coming out. And then you have if it's, you know, if it's in the less desirable area, they'll Teeter with the four to seven modified gross or industrial gross as you'll hear. And those usually have some expenses in there that are charged back to the tenant. As for space, if the space is less desirable, you're going to see more of that industrial gross number anywhere between, you know, five to seven. Newer stuff, like I said, $10, sometimes triple net, just depending on area and access. Cody: And a lot of times is that building size gets larger, that rental rate, well a lot of times go down. James: Okay. Okay. So before we probably go further, can you define triple-net because a lot of people in the residential stage, they are not used to this triple net. Can you define triple net, what does it mean? Michael: Yeah. So if you can ever in residential, try to charge them triple net. But when I was saying it's a triple net, basically it's taxes, insurance, and common area maintenance is charged back to your [11:46unclear]  Sometimes you can get an absolute triple-net deal and that's where the tenant also care of the roof and structure. It's not as common in industrial unless it's a single-tenant deal, but most of the time you're going to see this regular triple nets. James: Okay. Right. Interesting. Because we don't have that in multifamily. That'd be awesome. So triple net also means that if the property taxes go up, the landlord doesn't get any impact. We still get the rents that we supposed to get, I guess. Michael: That's correct. And sometimes, you know, your tenant, if they're a little more savvy they'll have like a protection on no higher increase in five to 10% on their common area maintenance or taxes. So let's say like your lawn guy wants to charge you way more, that'll force you to just find a new one at a more reasonable price. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. So what is the landlord responsible for then? Michael: Roof and parking lot. Structuring the building if it's triple net. Yeah. James: So does the landlord still get the tax benefits of owning the real estate? I'm presume so, right? Because you own the building, you own the roof and you own the real estate, I guess, right? Cody: Yes. So, well it depends on the tax benefits that they're getting, but if it's, you know, ownership of the real estate tax benefits, yes. Now if it's business-related or some of that nature, that's for them, obviously. James: Correct. Correct, correct. And I think the depreciation schedule for industrial and an office, I just want to cover that, is 39 and a half. Is that right if I'm not mistaken. Cody: I believe you're correct. James:  I think in residential it's 27.5 and all of the asset classes like 39 or 39.5, I can't remember. But that's a good distinction within triple net and the normal deals that we buy in multifamily. So, coming back to my question, I know we talked about different rental rates, but are there any classes that you guys have categorized in terms of industrial buildings? So it's just based on how old they are and there's no real definition... Cody: Yeah. So they do have classes, you've got B, you've got C, you've got A class and a lot of times that is determined by age and location and building quality and things of that nature. James: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it, got it. But definitely have to be in some way accessible near to their distribution part I would say, or distribution hub. I guess Cody: That's when a lot of them like it, they are very keen on location. But like I said, I didn't have to have highway frontage. In that access is very key. James: Okay. What about the, who buys the industrial? I want to interview a buyer of industrial parks and industrial buildings and I can never find, but you guys know all these guys, but who buys...what are the typical buyer characteristics or where does it come from? What does he look for? What is his appetite in terms of investment whenever they buy these industrial buildings? Cody: Absolutely. So there's a lot of buyers for industrial and they increase every day. And you know, even for the small Bay warehouses, you know, we have so many of those people that keep pouring into the marketplace and not just Texas, but in the US as a whole. But yeah, I mean industrial probably gets some of the most cross product or cross asset buyers that we've got. You know, people from self-storage buy these, people retail, past experience, they buy these. We even have apartment owners and operators buy these. But you know, there's a lot of REITs and institutions and things of that nature that are big in it. But no, a lot of, I would say the past 10 industrial buildings that we sold, probably I think, I want to say seven of those were an out of state owners. James: Got it. Are they from coastal city? Like New York and California? Are they local? Cody: Yeah. Canada, Florida, Chicago, absolutely. James: And do you see that this one guy buying across the nation or it's still very localized? Cody: No, a lot of these people will buy across the nation, but this is a market that a lot of these people will look into.  James: Texas, they like a lot of Texas? Cody:  Oh absolutely. Yeah. And like Michael was saying, you know, because of the Dallas Fortworth economy and things of that nature, it gets a lot of eyes. James: Got it. Very interesting. So, let's go back to underwriting and industrial building. So I presume that's a rental of the building where the tenants...is it like usually one tenant or is it like multiple tenants or how does that or is it all the 17-wheelers parking need to pay rent?  Cody: Yeah, it can be one tenant. We just sold a very large complex off of 360 and about 80 tenants in it. So, it can be very, very intense with a lot of tenants. And I think the group that bought that had a lot of multifamily experience as well. James: So 80 tenants in one building. I mean, do they have like counters in it or do they have docks? Cody: Yeah, so it was a bunch of buildings in a business park and so it was about 22 of them. And so it was just park. James: So it's like an industrial park where everybody had buildings and they ran the... Cody: Yeah, they had their own suites and things of that nature. James: Okay. So if it's triple net then probably there's nothing to do with expense ratio for a landlord. Right, because you get [17:30 crosstalk] Cody: One of those, I believe, were on gross leases still, but with industrial, a lot of people that aren't on triple net are going that way. James: Okay. Explain what's the difference between gross lease and triple net? Cody: So a gross lease, you'll find a lot more in office, in general office. You will absolutely find it in an industrial and gross lease is going to be where the landlord's taking on commonary maintenance, landscaping, repairs and maintenance, you know, HVAC, things of that nature. And so it's more management intensive. Your expenses on the landlord are going to be higher and that's a gross lease. But then you start getting into other types of leases. You know, you've got full service, you got gross, you've got modified gross and you get into like net, double net, triple net. James: Oh, okay. And what about full service? As you mentioned, because I've seen Cody: So full service, you're really only going to see that in office. And what I mean by that is landlord pays everything. They pay the utilities, they pay the janitorial, they pay the common area maintenance, they pay taxes, insurance, they cover everything. A tenant goes in as you know, a price per square foot and that's all they pay. James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So let's go to office. I mean in general, people are worried about office. Because you know, people say the trend is working from home. So is that still true?  Cody: Not here. James: Not probably in Dallas, I guess. Cody: No. I think office is actually trending a lot more towards coworking and things of that nature. And that's a model that has just expanded and blown up like crazy, especially out here in Dallas, Fortworth. James: So what is a typical investor who's looking to buy office space, office buildings? Where do they come from, what do they look for in an office? What kind of hold time do they have usually? Michael: Yeah. So their hold time can range anywhere between five and seven years. But you know, we just did a major value-add project in Plano where Toyota's headquarters is. State Farm had moved out and it was probably 20% occupied. That buyer actually, you know, did a bridge loan and he's going to go ahead and get that filled up very quickly, just cause the area's occupancy is not any lower than 80, 85%. But where these buyers come from, same thing as the industrial guys, cause a lot of industrial buyers also look at office and office guys look at industrial as well. But like I was telling you the other day on the phone, we've noticed a huge influx of multifamily buyers moving into office just because the returns are a little higher. And so, we had like that last guy, California we've got one in Chicago looking at one of our deals right now. We've got a couple of local groups out here that know these office buildings really well too and they know the trends of the area and how the occupancy is. So one specifically we're working on right near White Rock Lake in Dallas. That one's at 92, 93%, and that one's always been full ever since anybody can remember. So that's where these buyers come from. Any other questions? James: Yeah. How do you decide this office space is in a good location? Other than knowing, I know Plano is hard and I know free score is hard, but how, what are the parameters you look for in terms of like like you know, jobs growth in that particular submarket? Michael:  So, yeah, so you look for competition within the area for that office building, comparables in that market to the building because if you know the market really well and you know every building, you'll see that some gives you like a better bang for your buck. You know, some will have a lot of amenities that they're starting to offer. [21:48unclear]  groups are starting to do incubator spaces where they have a smaller coworking model and then their tenants will grow into spaces that are available in their building that they have rooms. And so they'll convert, you know, a small executive office and they can charge anywhere, you know, 35 to $45 per square foot just for a room. And as that tenant grows, they can grow within the building. But if you want to look at like specific markets like Las Colinas Irving area, are you familiar with that area? James: Yeah. Michael: Yeah. So you know that area has a lot of office and that's one thing you need to make sure of when you're looking at a deal. How many other class B or class A properties can your tenants look at before they commit to a space? But if you're looking over in Dallas, like where White Rock is, our building is the only building for the next two or three miles before you hit a highway, either going towards 75 or going North towards 635. And so that's why this building has been able to capture a lot of the people who don't want to drive all the way to 75 and fight that traffic every day or drive North on  635 and fight with that traffic as well. James: So you probably look at a cost, what the VPD, vehicle per day drive on that nearby highway, I guess. And I think you probably...I mean, as you mentioned, you look at other office supply in that area and I'm presuming you look at vacancy rate as well, on nearby office. And what tool do you use? Is it CoStar that you guys is primary for this industrial and office? Cody: Yeah. So there's a lot of tools you can use CoStar and Craxi and things of that nature. There's a lot of, you know, real capital analytics as well. They track a lot of good stuff. What I would also say on the office side is it's probably one of the product types. It's a little closer to multifamily as far as kind of a how to make them successful and things of that nature. Because, you know, when people go look at a multifamily complex, they usually have a couple options. And so a lot of times what they'll look at is amenities, access, recent renovations, things of that nature. What can they do for me on a new move in? And so office is very much a model that is driven just like multifamily. And so, keeping up with the times, making sure the renovations are good, making sure the building offers things like the deli or wifi and stuff of that nature or coworking style environment. Those things all help office buildings succeed. James: Got it. And what about this vacancy rate? Cause sometimes they're not...I mean multi-families and people that need a place to leave and vacancies are pretty low I guess comparatively to office, I mean different tenant profile. Right. So what is the average vacancy rate? I mean, how do I know like this area, this is the vacancy rate because somebody can be like six months, one year or somebody can be a few months, right? Depends on the area, I guess. How do you determine what is the vacancy rate for office and what are the lease terms in office? Cody: Absolutely. So the vacancy rate is going to be area driven. And so, you'll have certain areas like downtown Fortworth, which will have a certain vacancy rate and then that is going to be very much different than Las Colinas, downtown Dallas, Plano Allen, McKinney, Frisco. We pulled something earlier today working on a few things out in the Allen and McKinney area up there by Frisco and you know, they're class B office spaces around 5% on the vacancy side, which is very good for office, especially with more and more supply continuing to come up out there. In Los Colinas, it's gonna move a little bit more. And so, in my career, I've seen Los Colinas go down to almost 30%, and come up to somewhere around 10. But there's a lot of supply out there and there's always things shifting. Fortworth, I believe their occupancy is higher than what's being shown, but that's because XTO owned a bunch of the office product out there at one time and they recently sold a lot of that off. So some of that's being converted to hotels and things of that nature. But what you want to look at when you're buying an office building is yes, the area of vacancy, the area rental rates, but also the velocity of tenants, how many tenants are moving in that area. And then you also want to look at what are the size of tenants, the square footage sizes that we have and what is really the area tenant size. And so, some people will buy a building and they'll have 10,000, 15,000 square foot units, when the area is really commanding three to 5,000 square foot tenants. And so they'll see a lot longer on market time. And so what they need to do is chop those spaces down. James: And do people who buy, you know, I just want to add industrial. So industrial office, are they people who syndicate deals, like what a lot of multifamily people do? Or is it REITs or is it some institutional or some rich guy from the coastal areas? Cody: It can be a rich guy like yourself or it could [27:23crosstalk] James: I'm in Austin, Texas.  Cody: It varies. When you start dealing under $5 million, a lot of that's going to be private. James: But is it a lot of syndication happening? Cody: Oh yeah. James: Oh really? Okay. So, syndication is not a multifamily game only is also in the office and industrial. Okay. That's really good to know because I didn't know that. Michael: Yeah. And to go back on your question, you're asking about these terms. So you want to make sure that, area driven but you also want to make sure that your TIs are not going to eat you alive. James: Yeah. So TI is tenant improvements; just for our audience, for them to know. Michael: Yes. So and you'll see a lot of these guys in office that are moving. Sometimes they really want like a gold plated wall finish out and you just can't do that for them. You need to make sure you get that lease term where it can get your TIs not in the red for the first year. I even try to keep that around like $10 or so per square foot. But you'll see those terms go just depending on what they need done to the space, how many offices they need built out. You'll see that range anywhere between three years, five years, seven or 10, sometimes 15. That's really big one that's usually the range you'll see on a lease term. James: Got it. So I think it's all up to negotiation and how much the landlord is going to pay and how strong is the lease terms and all that. How do you qualify your tenants? I mean, let's say I'm a buyer, I'm buying an office space with 10 different tenants in it, how do I say this is a class A tenant, this is a class B tenant and this is a class C tenant. And how do I say that? Michael: So when we underwrite a lot of these deals, we're looking at the tenants, how long they've been there. We can also reach out to the seller or ourselves if we know the tenant what their credit rating is. And you can give a write upon them. Like we were selling a three tenant deal out in Las Colinas and some of the tenants themselves put in their own money. They put in 500,000 in improvements to the space work for them. So that was one of the things that we made sure that we had in our OM when we were underwriting that deal and how much time they had left. Cause when you're looking at these, you're like, Oh man, this guy, he's only got a year or two left. But you know, a year or two ago they put $500,000 into this space. So sometimes it was a really big key factors, explaining these commitment levels of the tenant. James: So you said credit rating. Is there data that you pull out from them or you just look at history and how they [30:18unclear] Michael: Yeah, all those things combined. James: But is that something that way you can pull from the credit rating of the tenants? Is that a system or you just have to look [30:30unclear] Michael:  Yeah, not always, but you know, when you're working a lease deal when I used to lease back from the day, we would get tenant financials from them, sometimes, yeah. James: So based on their financials and what's their commitment to the space that's where you establish their credit rating, I guess? Michael: Yes. And comfort level and then like, Oh, okay. I feel like their financials are good enough for me to say. James: So it's very subjective then because I mean, somebody who want to sell the deal, he may say to all my tenants are A-plus credit rating, I guess. So, I'm just trying to quantify that a bit more, but I think it looks like there's no real... Cody: Sometimes you would have like an A-plus credit rating or something of that nature is when you've got like a DaVita or something of that nature in the building or a FedEx or something like that. But a lot of times, office buildings will have, you know, a little bit more generic companies, local regional firms. And so that's why Michael said if they're going to spend a lot of money on the finish out, they'll say, Hey, we'd like to see your business financials just so we can make sure that the money we're spending that you look like someone's going to be in business for the term. And you know, they're pretty much used to that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's say a building is being sold right now and some of the residents have like one or two years left in their lease. If they get to know that somebody's going to buy this building, will they start negotiating with the new buyer or the new buyer have an option to know whether they're going to be renewing? How does that work? Cause you know, that basically increases your risk. Michael: Yeah. So typically they do not know until you're pretty far along in the process. So they'll usually get attendant estoppel, which will signal to them that, Hey the building may change hands to a new owner. But although they're getting that, it's mainly just a lease verification to make sure also their security deposit is transferred over as well. And you know, you don't want to alert the tenants, but you also want to make sure that when you're working on these, they're paying what they're saying on the OM and it's matching what it has on the estoppel as well. James: Got it. Got it, got it. Well, Michael and Cody, thanks for coming. I mean, can you tell our audience and listeners how to get hold of you? You guys are doing really big deals in the DFW area. I'm not sure, are you guys covering any of the areas other than DFW? Cody: I'd say 95% of the business that we've got is in DFW now. We will branch out and sell a couple of things here and there. We're actually about to bring out a 20 story office tower out in Corpus Christi. That's a relationship that we have. James: Let me know if some of the towers in Austin is coming for Salem. Probably I can even buy one. Cody: Absolutely. James: I just heard there are 37 new towers coming in Austin. Cody: Well, there's a lot of people that are looking out there, I can tell you that. James: Yeah. So why not you guys tell our audience how to get hold of you guys. Cody: I'll do it. So yeah, Cody Payne, Michael Tran. Our number is (817) 840-0055, we're with Colliers International, we're office and industrial specialists and we've got some really good self-storage and retail guys here as well. James: Good, good. Guys, look for a specialist because all this asset class, there's a lot of nuances to it as so much of details. Not everybody can do this. And you know, these guys are some of the best in the industry. Thanks for coming on Cody: See you.

James:. Hi, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieved Wealth through Value Add Real Estate Investing podcast. Today we have a special session with Rama Krishna from Zovest Company from California. Hey Rama, you want to say hi to our audience and listeners?    Rama: Yeah. Hi James. Thank you for inviting me on this special session. I know definitely the primary reason is we are attending so many webinars on this COVID19 impact for multifamily, a lot of other groups that we're discussing. I wanted to just compile all that strategies that I have compile and also mine as well. What I'm actually going through right now with my properties, compiling the blog posts and whatever you wanted to talk about it.    James: Yeah. Today's a special session. I'm trying to make all this podcast release. I'm actually rearranging all my podcast releases to make it really timely. So all of you guys, listeners, can we take action from whatever you're listening from this podcast and listening to podcast that was recorded one or two months ago, which is like super boring because all that is pre-Corona. I'm sure all of you guys are wondering what is this guy talking about. 3% rent growth at that time, so this is timely. We're going to release as soon as possible. Rama has done a really good job compiling fifty strategies for multifamily operators and asset managers to tackle Covid19 and we're going to go to each one of those quickly and also in detail so that each one of you can take a pencil and paper and write down what are some of the things that you can use right now. Rama, let's get started.    Rama: Yup.    James: What's the first one?   Rama: I think before even getting there, I'm reading the primary thing that we need to do here is, people lost jobs in the sense that we need to become passionate about the way how things are going. I think we are actually suffering as operators. We also have to put ourselves in the tenant's shoes and they got impacted. Some of these strategies to also have to work with them to see how they can weather the storm, including us, have to weather the storm here. Another thing is, I mean, there are federal regulations right now that we cannot evict tenants. So in a sense, even though, we can do some of these things, but the strategy is what we have before we cannot do it because of the regulations in place and then also shelter in place right now.    The first primary thing that we wanted to do to alleviate the problems of tenants is the late fee waiver. We actually wanted to not to communicate this thing until the fifth, but we did communicate before that itself, just wanted to give some assurance to the tenants saying that you're not going to charge late fee for the month of April and May. That's the first strategy you want to do. Also they cannot; they are impacted. The primary thing we wanted to do, James is when you're working with the tenant that they have an issue, you want to get a proof from them that they got laid off from their job and then put it into your resources, your folders so that in case if you're applying for any other benefits in the future, any ADL program or a PPP program, or maybe a forbearance or forgiveness, you can have all these things noted in your documentation.    The second thing is some of the tenants are not misusing this thing. There is a late fee waiver. There's a flexible payment plan, but if you're not impacted, you're not eligible for that. That's the reason. The second point where we wanted to put them into a payment plan, if they are impacted and then they can continue catching up these payments. The second thing again and then typical guidelines to the tenants saying that you need to do the shelter in place and follow the state or CDC guidelines to make sure that there are protected. The last thing that you need is a Covid19 patient in your properties and then they're spreading and they don't know what, and God forbid there's a death. There are lot of things that you need to do to make sure and also fundamentally you want your tenants and everyone to be safe. Then follow the state guidelines and what you have to do or they have to do somebody tested positive in your property. How they can do self quarantine and how you can help them also.    I know maybe there is one more point in here is to, for us as an operative to disinfect the common areas and especially, I think we'll come back to those points again in the later strategies is to disinfect the common laundry mailboxes and other things, leasing office and other things. The other thing from a financial standpoint was security deposits. When we found out about this program called [05:15unclear] there other insurance programs, even not just for this one later also the operators can use this strategy to actually use in lieu of security deposit. They can actually get into some of these insurance programs like the Rhino or like Nash tag, Lemonade, where in this strategy, James, I think you might already know. Let's say the security deposit is thousand dollars. They need to pay $5 per month as insurance and they don't need to deposit this thousand dollars. So somebody coming in new as a tenant instead of paying first month's rent plus a security deposit of say $2,000. Now the need to only pay $1,000 and an insurance program for $5 a month. If it is $2,000, it will be $10 a month. It covers both security deposits and also any damages that they do, including they haven't officially confirmed but when I talked to rhinos representative, they're saying even wear and tear. Say if we want to do and make ready and there is damage that you have under the unit it covers that. So the way how it works is, so let's say if the tenant vacates and you go and do the move out inspection and you saw overall to make ready of this is twelve hundred dollars, and you do it claim to rhino and then they pay you within 48 hours and they collect from the tenant later because it's still learning deposit. There is wear and tear or some damage happened to the unit.    James: So that is a sayrhino.com, that's what you're saying?   Rama: Yeah.    James: And there are a few other people as providers?    Rama: Providers, yeah.   James: Let me get a bit more structured here. We are on that line item number five, which is basically the first one, is look at late fee waiver. Second is look at payment plans for your residents who are impacted, make sure they are impacted. Third one is a make sure that you communicate to residents and make sure they follow the shelter in place and follow the State and CDC guidelines. Fourth is basically if they are exposed to Covid19 patients who are tested positive you want to do a self-quarantine as well. If you as a property manager knows about whether any residence has been impacted, usually a lot of property management software have given us access to additional fields in the tenant information to mark them as Covid19 quarantined and all that. I do have it recently on my property management software. So check with your property management company, so they can mark it as someone was impacted or quarantined or what's the status.    The fifth one is basically using some of the security deposit for some of the two months rents using some companies like sayrhino.com where you can use it as an insurance for evictions and if they evict out or if for any make ready, if the tenant cannot pay.    Rama: If you collected the security deposit, you can convert to a sayrhino agreement.    James: Okay.    Rama: The minimum is at least they need to have six months more left in the lease because at least whether the new person coming in or maybe like another two months are done in the...   James: But this program already existed before Covid19? Rama: No, sayrhino has 700,000 units insured.    James: So they already existed right now. So you can just use this at this stage, I guess. Use some of the current security deposit and convert it to this insurance program, I guess.    Rama: Exactly.    James: Okay, got it. So sayrhino.com and REIG insurance, call home, [08:59unclear] king.com and these are the some of the providers?    Rama: Yes, there are some other insurance providers in lieu of a security deposit.    James: Okay. Let's go to number six.    Rama: Okay. Let's say from an operator perspective you feel that there is one more point here that we can come back to this. I think I haven't ordered this in the right format, right numbering. The first thing before doing that is to privately segregate our profile tenants. Go each lease by lease and profile your tenants how exposed are they with this Covid19 impacted businesses. Are they in restaurants, are they in travel tourism industry or whatever it is to see what would be the impact of it. Say if you have 50% of your tenants are in medical profession or maybe some other which are not really impacted into that. So at least you will know yourself if you own [09:55unclear] unit, Hey, like, I'm 50% of my tenants are restaurants, maybe. Then you can actually be really alert and also do go to these programs, what we're talking about here. Talk to your Fannie/Freddie lender and see if they have any mortgage forbearance or relief. No, they already have it. Fannie and Freddie already rolled it out, for 90 days you can forbear your mortgage not to pay that. Then how the payment plan of twelve months to catch up on this 90 day payment.    But make sure that there will be some negative remark or agency loan history and to see, make sure you go through all the agreement before actually signing up. But yeah, if you're really impacted, definitely if you're going on water with not being able to make mortgage payments, for sure you should consider this mortgage forbearance.    James: Okay, good. Let's go to the next one.    Rama: Yeah. And then so that is one aspect of it. The other aspect of it is the SBA disaster loans. There is an EIDL emergency loan...   James: I think it’s called Economic Injury...   Rama: Economic Injury Disaster Loan. So that's the loan that SBA is giving up to $2 million for small businesses including rental apartment owners, there is 3.75% interest and then there is some times that you need to pay. The idea here is based on your situation you can actually apply for this a disaster loan for EIDL program so that you can weather the storm for the next three to six months or nine months. There's another loan for a payroll protection program, PPP, which I can update this as well. If you have a payroll that you're running by yourself, you can actually apply for this PPP program to get two and a half months of payroll from the government or if your property management company actually runs the payroll, you can ask them to apply for this PPP loan so that they cannot bill you for the next three months for the property management personally. James: Yeah. I think the caveat is anybody who's applying for it to be having less than 500 employees.    Rama: Exactly. I think they figured out some more than 500, but overall, yeah, up to 500. Yes. And then also thing from I think from a tenant perspective some of this one's four or five points series. If they are actually having some hardships right now how they can use some of these federal programs. They're actually sending a $1,200 to $3,400 checks every person who actually filed their taxes. Also they can apply, if they are a small business, they can apply SBA loan or they can apply a PPP loan and they can weather the storm and actually use that money and then if they get referred, they can file the taxes immediately and use that money to pay rents. Some of these aspects that you can think on their shoes and see how these federal programs can help them as a tenant. Maybe one of your tenant is a restaurant owner, then you can see how the federal programs can help them so that they maybe they can file an employment benefits and then you can tell information about that or you can find local companies which are hiring and then see if some of these tenants that actually wants to find a job right now. Then you can ask them to continue pay the rent.    James: Yeah. Let me add some more things. Some of the apartment association in many big cities have given renters resources, which includes how to file unemployment. What are the resources for them to get different types of help from different organizations. Rama: Yeah. So again, two aspects of our operations, one is income and the other is expenses? Right now we've talked a lot of stuff from income perspective and some are expenses perspective. The other aspect that we kind of brought in is with all these people talking about are expenses. So in the non-essential expenses, even send email like a message to all the tenants, memo the tenants saying that, if you have any emergency only like create a service request, non-emergency service request will be done once the things settle down. Now if you are a light bulb vendor where you can fix it yourself or you leave the light bulb at the doorstep, let them fix it. Instead of you exposing your maintenance staff to more people, either they can fix it themselves or we can drop the light bulb there or they can wait for a few weeks until these things settle down so that you can cut your non-essential expenses and other controllable expenses that you can eliminate and you can close all the amenities, pool, the common amenities so there is no need to continue maintaining them.    James: I think also you do not want to people to use that and spread the virus more.    Rama: Exactly. Those are shelter in place, not using the common amenities, throw a party in a club house then you will have 50 people infected there. Primary thing is the common amenities. You have laundry room, everybody's coming in there to do the laundry, how they can sanitize this thing or maybe one person at a time or have a roster, Hey, this building one to ten people using Monday to Monday 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM some roster so that not everybody coming in Saturday morning to do the laundry. Or maybe some mailbox to see if somebody is there at the mailboxes, have some instructions that say wait for them to leave and then you go, wait for a minute and then you can go and pick up your mail.    Some of this stuff that you can instructions at the mailing and laundry, or in any common areas. The other thing is aspect of income perspective is primarily focused on the leasing aspect. Can you put some deals on renewals or lease modifications or if you already gave notices and then maybe cancel the notices and then pause the rent increases right now to make sure that you're at least a hundred percent physically occupied and then later on 100% how it can be economically awkward as well. At least at this point right now if you can make this a hundred percent thing, James, both physical and economically, you can weather the storm for the three to six months and come back and again go back to your typical asset management strategies to increase the valuation of the property. Right now it's more a fight or flight mode right now. Let's see how to make it smoother for the next 90 days to 120 days is the strategy here.    James: Yeah. So what you're saying is rather than pushing for rent, try to keep people in the units, whether they're paying or not.   Rama: If you renew it, we're going to not increase it, let's say if you renew it in April, May, we're not going to do any rent increases. The last thing for you to do is make this unit empty right now and then we don't know what the situation of leasing activity in that building. So continue withholding rent increases, especially if you renew it in the next two months, we will not increase the rent, for example and the things that were discussed already, it'd be sympathetic and then also profile your tenants, see what jobs they do. Another strategy on this is, you don't need to pay April or maybe May but that rent will be amortized in the next 12 months. That's another strategy they're doing. Hey, you know, you're affected. We're not going to charge you for April or maybe half of May as well, but that $1,500 will it be amortized for the next twelve months. James: Okay, so you'll give them a break for one month and you take that money and amortize over 12. Rama: Yeah. Just like forbearance from a mortgage, same thing. That is amortized for the next 12 months. Same thing that you can do here, but some of these are lease modifications and see how painful it is, but whatever that is kind of, it takes it to get this thing done right and extending the leases. One more thing in the leases we can come back to later on is usually when you do a short term rentals at the three months lease, six months lease, you have a premium. You can actually reduce the premium, no premium for short term rentals. Say, hey, like, we are leasing right now. Hey, you want a six months, and then it will be same as the 12 months’ rent. So at least you can fill up your units by doing that. James: Yeah, even on a month to month. I think they can usually we charge premium for month to month, but you can either reduce it or don't charge that for now. Rama: Exactly. So I think maybe for them also they also wanted to try for month to month, three months, and then they can do an annual release after two to three months.  So you can at least fill them in coming in, let them pay, and then you can think about this after three months. The same topic we discussed before is the go to a local; even though there are jobs lost, some are trying to hire. Amazon is hiring for the warehouses, grocery chains, hospitals; some of them, they're not able to have enough staff. So you can find these in your market, in your sub-market and see and take those information and then send you to your people who actually came, Hey, I lost my job. Hey, why don't you try to go to Amazon warehouse five miles from here, they're actually hiring. That you can help to see if they can come back to the employment at least for temporary for the 90 days until this thing comes back.    A lot of these people are furloughed right now just because they can get unemployment benefits, but if they can get some other job for the next 90 days, because what if just delays more, they can get some job for the next six months and come back to the workforce later. Another thing is something similar is lot of charities and churches and they pay the rent and if they're part of the local church or a charity program now there are so many people paying rent and also their utility payments.  James: To help our residents and one good resource that you guys can use, all the listeners can use. It's findhelp.org, that has all the completion of all the organizations which are helping people in terms of money, housing all kinds of things there, so use that resource. Rama: Yeah.  And like this is the first step. So whatever that's happening for us or for them, the message to tenants is the rent is due, just because we have to have utility payments, we have to have mortgage payments, we have to pay salaries for employees. This is a laser thin business. This is not; we're making 50% as profits here. So we had to send that message properly that we also have expenses. We cannot  just not forego this thing, not paying rent. That's the message that I might not be putting into the right way here, but you have to [21:24unclear] because some of these articles in some of these markets saying, Hey, don't pay rent for three months. So it's just showing a wrong message, but they're not thinking about the operators. James: Yeah and the government or our mortgage providers did not give us a break on our mortgage. The rent is still due, we do sympathize with all the residents. Let's work out some plan. But rent is rent and it still needs to be paid in some way. So we have to figure that out and see. Rama: Then another thing is if you're doing renovations, if you have draw requests, it's already competitor immediately do the draw request because there might be some delays right now because of this demo here, the inspector might not come in to verify that renovations that you did to approve the draw request. Submit your draw request as soon as possible so that your money, you had to pay your vendors. James: So this is the capital or replacement reserve, what we're talking about here?  Rama: Exactly. So you renovated like say five, ten units and usually the bridge loans, other loans which we have escrow money. Get the draw request and then get the money at least and then you can pause. The idea here is to release what you did to now, get the money, pay your vendors and pause your renovations for some time until this is done. Another aspect is until it is utilities, because now everybody's at home. They're going to use all their deliveries for the maximum, the water, the electricity, the heaters, the air conditions, and the internet, everybody utility company is right now maxed to the capacity. So just keep it down on the utilities and see how things are going on that. All bills paid or you're doing the reps program. Do you need to increase the reps? Like whatever it is, just keep an eye on it. It'll definitely be a much higher. James: Yeah. I think because everybody's staying at home right now and the one or two months when the utility bill hits to everyone is going to be much higher and now I appreciate why all this spend people go to work, somebody else is paying for their utilities when they are at work. Now operators do feel the heavy load here, but it is what it is.   Rama: And also the load on this, if you're continuously using something like your HVACs maybe break broken, or your water, something that issues that you need to make sure that you do the regular maintenance of these stuff and then make sure that you have ducks in row. Like, hey, we're talking to the Water Company, talking to your Plummer, talking to your electrician or HVAC Company, making sure they're ready for any service request that comes in. Because if the HVAC broken or some water broken, last thing is that the tenants are not happy.    James: Correct. Correct.    Rama: So I think we discussed it the month to month of high risk tenants, rental increases on this. Yes. Pausing all upgrades and the distribution side. Another thing is we've talked about lenders, talked about the tenants but you did not think about the investors. If you're syndicating this deal or if you have the private money that you raised or whatever that you have investors in your deal, make sure that you inform them about what's going on and how well your assets are performing and what are the things that you are doing as an operator to get some of these strategies are what your strategies that you're already applying to whether this storm and maybe there are some other great topics, uncomfortable things that you need to talk to them. Say there might be some pause on distributions because we don't know what's going on here. We need to preserve the cash, preserve our reserves right now, what if this goes beyond 90 days. So maybe pause or reduce your distributions or pause it for now and then you can catch back once everything kind of settles down. That's one of the conversations you should have. James: Yeah. Make sure, I mean, just a caution to everyone who's listening. Make sure that any operators are communicating to the passive investors more frequently than what they used to know. This is very important right now. Just because everyone knows Covid19 is happening, the whole country is in a lockdown, doesn't mean that you can't communicate. So make sure you communicate all your plans and what are you doing to your passive investors? Rama: I think we kind of came through this reprint reserves. We need to make sure that you're are person maintenance; so make sure that now is the time that you have a pause. So you can actually flag kind have all your depreciated items, have HVACs these other things. Make sure that you have all of them done properly. Also, again, the same thing, use audit, full use audit to categorize your employers. So their dependents are at risk or not. James: Yeah, I mean, you can do a general lease audit as well because most of the time, right now our offices are closed for public. Most of the apartment office. So in my company, most of my staff are doing lease audits. Just as part of the normal thing, but to keep them busy.    Rama: So this is the right time, everybody give it time we are running, now is the best time to profile your tenants lease audits and make sure that what strategies that you can employ to make them in place and again, same thing as utility, like just how you can do savings of utilities. Is it a new water leaks that are happening. Let's see your old bills in the last six months or one year. See any patterns that you can identify or any other measures that you can save utilities because the utilities will be stressed in the next a few months. Again from the expenses side, completely renegotiating all your contracts and [27:30unclear] every insurance, everything that you spend, your controllable expenses like non-controllable, property taxes and mortgage. You cannot do anything. Maybe yes, if you can refinance now if you have ability you can do that, if the rates are low. But if the controllable expenses you have the negotiating ability, your pool vendor, hey, pause for a few months or maybe renegotiate the contracts, go through every line expenses that you have and try to get renegotiate these things.    There are even companies it seems, which can do like this, that can help you go through all your bills and then find anything that you can renegotiate the contract. The thing is noise notices because now everybody's home. There will be a lot of complaints. Hey, like my neighbor is making a lot of noise. Make sure that you again send it across back to the tenant notification saying after nine o'clock it is a quiet time for what it is like in the night. Any of the notices that you want to do, the courtesy notices to make sure that everybody's people are working from home. Whatever it is and again, so a lot of people kind of saying maybe on the section eight, what's yours? Maybe this is a time to think about rethink...   James: It's the best time to get section eight vouchers because that's guaranteed income for now.        Rama: Exactly. So if your property is already approved and you have a few tenants in section eight now go through, go to your city and say, hey, do you want any more? We have vacancies right now. Hey, absolutely we have so many people are looking at it and we are already approved as section eight for your property, they'll let them send your way. And you can fill up easily and these are at least for the next one to two years, it'll be like in a way standard and then not all section eight is bad, just make sure that you profile your tenant properly and then...   James: Yeah. And I also heard that the government provided a lot more funding for housing people so there could be a lot more section eight vouchers coming in and what you're saying, they're not bad people. I mean they are definitely a lot of good people there you just have to make sure that you screen them properly and make sure you get the good ones.    Rama: Yes. I think we kind of briefly touched based on this too about the [29:57unclear] and all the forgivable loans or the loans and then property managers can use some of these loans. Each LLC, that own asset can use this. Check with your lending terms to see that it's not violating any terms. There are a couple of things, I got it from the CVRE webinar, make sure that you have fire productions on the building equipment and backups and mission critical operations that you have. These are kind of into the back-end of it that we already usually ignore. Make sure that all the buildings are inspected properly by the fire inspection because now that everybody's at home, there are higher chances of some of the stuff they could make big dormant happen. Do you have your backups of emergency?  And then any mission critical operations your cooling any heating water or anything, we have redundancy on these things. Make sure that you're building physical aspects of your buildings, make sure that you do those and then if you don't have credit card payments, for rent payments, make sure to enable them and also inform tenants that you can pay rent through credit card or maybe in that you can actually give back the money or the transaction fees. Usually in a credit card payment there is a two and a half percent transaction fee. Hey, you can use credit card. If you use a credit card, let us know. We can refund you the transaction fee.    James: Yeah. That's something that we are happy because we moved all to online payment for the past one year. So now it's so much easier during this kind of thing because...   Rama: Especially if you're not yet on the credit card payment option, make sure that you talk to your property management software and enable that and then also inform them, Hey, like you already have ACH but you have an option to pay through credit card. That's another thing and also another incentive is, I think Neil was using his, if you can give some credit, if they pay the rent before fifth of the month, or if you pay April and May upfront now you'll get a $100 off or $150 off. Give them incentive to pay for the next two to three months upfront. So that if somebody has that capability to do it now they can use up the program and they can get, they can get a credit for that and make sure, again, this one is, I think should be the first stop. If you're working with the tenant, either a late payment waiver or a traded audit, lease modification, any other that you're working with them, make sure that they show the letter that they lost their job. Otherwise people will make use of these features that you would actually giving. So that's the primary and then the couple of things we already talked about the short term rent leases and renegotiating the contracts and other one is primary, the model unit. Now that nobody's coming in and seeing the units, maybe you can use your model unit as lease apartment for short term, but this is the [33:07unclear] idea and lease to traveling nurses because right now with the Covid a lot of these hospitals are actually getting healthcare professional from outside, from other towns, other places and they're hiring more people as a temporary staff, but these traveling nurses and healthcare professionals need to have some place to stay. You can go; I had to find this link, James. I'll talk to Ellie and then send it to you as well later on; you can put it into your notes.   James: Is this a link for traveling nurses?   Rama: Yeah, there is a way to find out these people and then post your apartments there. Hey, if your apartment is say five to ten miles from a hospital major hospital and you can actually use these resources to actually post, hey, we have available short term rentals, maybe for lease or not, we can give you this for the next 90 days to 120 days. That's another way to actually fill a unit. James: That's awesome, it looks like we went through the list. So let me add one more thing, which I just remembered. If you have never done a virtual 3D tour of your units, you want to prepare right now, there's a lot of photographers out there that they can do a virtual 3D two of the units. Right now that's very useful because right now we can't use our leasing agents to go and tour the units, we just tell them to go themselves or drive around or look at the pictures or look at the videos. But if they have a really nice virtual 3D picture, there'll be a really good way to attract leases to you. Rama: Rentally has a self-touring technology. You can purchase webcams. So if you're using Rentally, also Rentally is also an app into existing property management. You can put the webcams there. You don't need to be there, your leasing staffs are not exposed. So they can come in 24/7, you'll send them the lock core. You'll open the unit and you can monitor from your leasing office or whatever desk you are and then do that, Rentally has that. James: Yeah, I did look at that as well. So that's awesome. Rama, thanks for sharing this. Is there anything else you want to mention to the audience and the listeners? Rama: Yeah, I think we have some light on the other end of the tunnel. The government is helping us. Hopefully I think this will pass and we'll back stronger and stay safe.    James: Yeah. Yeah. Multifamily is still one of the best asset classes to invest in because there's so much help we are getting from all our different sauces. Imagine if you are an office or warehouse or industrial or everything is closed down, or hotels. Right now things are doing really badly in that asset classes. But shelter is part of the Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food, shelter and safety. So absolutely everybody needs housing to stay on and live on.  So thanks for coming in and hopefully we can add this as soon as possible and that's it. Thank you very much, Rama.    Rama: Yeah. Thank you, James.   

James: Hi audience and listeners this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth through Value at Real Estate Investing podcast. Today I have Anton Mattli from Peak Multifamily who is one of the leading multifamily financing agencies. Anton is a CEO of a big multifamily funding. He graduated from Zurich Business School. He's from Switzerland originally, love Switzerland for the view of it and he has been advising family officers’ high net worth individuals and has done billions and billions of dollars of loans. Anton and I was discussing before this interview started saying it's not fair for lenders to declare how many billions they have done because that can be a lot of money but the experience level and the knowledge and the acumen of the industry matters a lot when you're doing financing. Hey Anton, welcome to the show. Anton: Yeah. Hi James. Thanks for having me. James: Absolutely, absolutely. Actually we are having, originally I planned to have a meeting with you to talk about what could happen similar to 2008 crisis because we have been talking about it for past few months, but now we are in the middle of corona virus recession, I would say and we are in the first or second week of this happening. So basically we don't have to predict what the recession can be, but we can predict what are the outcome from this event could be. I think a few months ago you and I have a lot of discussions about how the market would turn, how dangerous is the market right now in terms of operators or sponsors or syndicators buying things because overleveraged, overpriced and all that. What were your thoughts before this Covid19 recession came about and how was your state of mind in terms of how the economy was and how everyone was buying deals and we'll go into the details on Covid19 and what's happening now? Anton: Sure. As you write on the operator side have seen quite a number of deals that for me personally didn't make sense but I didn't know a deal was financeable from a lender perspective, from a debt service called [02:36unclear] particularly when it's an agency loan, does not necessarily mean that it's a good deal from an equity investor perspective. Even though we were able to finance some of these deals with a number of them I would not have felt comfortable to invest in those deals. There were plenty of deals that still made a lot of sense, so don't get me wrong, it's not all of them, but there were only the number of deals that in my view, didn't make sense over the last two years, only have increased dramatically compared to before. At the same time we have also arranged bridge loans and as you probably know, bridge lenders, they're extremely active. They have taken a major activity uptake over the last few years.  So there was a lot of competition in the bridge lending space, which meant that you were easily able to get 80% of cost for your C class property and sometimes in really tough locations and bridge loans make perfect sense when it's a true value-add deal. When it's not really a value add and it's mostly to do with soft rehab, but you feel that you get the agency loans when you need it and you go with a bridge loan, then I think it was much more problematic. So with that obviously we have seen quite a number of these bridge loans and deals that I believe particularly in the current environment will likely struggle. Because this bridge lenders they are not like the agencies and that came down now with the forbearance offer. Don't expect that from bridge lenders. James: Yeah, I know. It's crazy. Now I feel so happy. I'm all in [04:41unclear] for the past one and a half year I've moved to [04:45unclear]. So are you saying on the bridge side there is no forbearance or what's happening on the bridge side with the Covid19 crisis right now? Anton: Well as a general rule, bridge lenders have never been; some of them, the good bridge lenders they have always been willing to make adjustments when they see that a borrower is behind of the original plan, the ones that are really in there as a partner, they have been willing to cooperate and I think those lenders, and they are not really that many among all the bridge lenders that are out there, they will continue during these times to help a borrower to get through that time. But the majority of bridge lenders are not maybe staying, very often it's not their own money so they essentially have orders behind that that they buy into and they have kind of an obligation to fulfil that loan agreement to the letter and their investors demand that they fulfil their obligation as per the loan agreements.  So some of them are very aggressive just by nature and the others have to force from the investors they have the loan funded from do actually go into enforcement or you can call it loss mitigation as the nice term sounds with these loans very forcefully and very quickly.  So now maybe the [06:25unclear] is a little bit of a shine of positive light here that they may say, look, yes, we could foreclose right now, but maybe it's not a good time to do the foreclosure now anyhow so let's just go through another couple of months and then see if we want to foreclose. But it's still in my view that just kicked the can down the road for a very brief period of time until they go all way in with their loss mitigation process.  James: But I think it only depends on what's happening in April, right? I mean, we have another 10 more days to go [07:03unclear]. But in general, I am already seeing even in my properties, they are residents who are declaring that they can't pay and this $3000 a door family units. I'm not sure, as you mentioned they're going to use it for rent or is it one time? I'm not sure for how many months is that? But the thing is the delinquency will be higher. So I believe the sponsors or syndicators who are halfway to value add and right now they are not done with the value add. So their value add might be struggling. If it goes below certain level, they're going to be stuck because it's going to be negative and as you mentioned, bridge lenders are or private people. They have the obligation to whoever gave them the money.  Anton: That's right. Yeah. So if you have already a property that is, let's say a third empty because you planned all your rehab, even if you do rehab, a lot of tenants that you now can attract and so you would have to attract them with very aggressive terms. If you find them and then you still know that at that level that you need to be based on your performance, which the lender wants to essentially base their decision on to release more rehab money for future doors. So then essentially that rehab money sits with the bridge lender, you have not performed as per the loan agreements. So if you want to go ahead further, you need to inject more equity. James: Yeah. It's basically... Anton: It's kind of a vicious cycle. James: Yeah, it's a downward spiral because now I believe on the bridge sites, a lot of loan are based on LTV, loan to value and they're going to assume the values are going to drop. Because now your rent is going to drop [08:54unclear]. Anton: Yeah. It's a combination of loan to value, but as you go through the draw process, it's more driven by some amount of collections that you need to achieve and why and then the dead deals that you need to achieve with that. So it's a little bit of a different measuring sticks. But at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what you use, it's maybe hard to achieve these points that you need to meet at some point in the timeline, then you property is not performing and so the reality is all these bridge loans they typically have very aggressive timelines to start with. So if you fall behind just by a couple of months, it can become very problematic. When it says after six months we should achieve this and you are essentially behind by two or three months and it continues to go in the same direction as you fall behind once you are at the enrolment then, and so long. So I would say the ones that have enough cash on their own that they can inject as needed, they will be fine. So the ones that suffer the most are the sponsors that just kind of get by with their own personal financials and they don't have the ability to inject a couple of hundred thousand as needed to get the ball rolling at the property. James: Yeah. But it is tricky, right? Right now, I mean most sponsors can use this Covid19 and burn the equity and get out or they can keep on injecting and try to; because no one knows what's going to happen in the next six months. So it's a gamble. A lot of sponsors or syndicators need to take whoever on the bridge loan if they need to continue injecting more money or give it back to the bridge lender. But right now they have a valid reason. They can say the whole world is collapsing. I'm getting out now.  Anton: Yeah. If you're a syndicator. So you essentially can ask your investors, look, we are in really deep trouble. Do we want to inject more money? Generally I would say what typically should happen is that you do a capital call and if no one wants to do it, then you would have to lend yourself or you come up with the equity yourself. But in most instances it's not equity, but it's more a loan by the partners. But again, that all requires that the channel partners actually have the cash available if we lend to the property and a lot of them I've seen out there they don't have that capacity. So they'll be very interesting. Obviously that always assumes that things really get bad but we don't know yet. Maybe it's a miracle and all that stimulus money somehow entices these tenants to pay the rent. Obviously I hope for you and for everyone else who operates properties that that's going to happen. But based on history I don't think that that is really going to happen. I think last night I do have Brian on and he was referring to the situation during the hurricanes in Houston and that's a perfect example I would say but you cannot compare with 2008, I think we all agree with that, but certainly what happened with Harvey and the flooding is probably much better comparison. Because everything had to be shut down. It was very localized, but it had to be shut down. As Brian correctly mentioned like the properties across the board suffered with delinquencies. So I would say we will likely see that we just do not know yet how big the percentages by asset class and by location. I think it will depend a lot on locations obviously places like the Northeast, the greater New York City areas only suffer more. Same thing in Washington State, in Texas we would have to see how bad it is. Obviously we have also the additional element of oil and gas that has laid a massive negative role here for us in Texas, particularly for the property owners in Houston and we don't even have to talk about Midland and Odessa. But even in Houston it's only something that will in addition to Covid19 will have a negative impact on these properties. So it will be very fascinating to see how the performance looks like in the next a few months. James: Yeah, I'll get a good indication in the next 10 days. But we are already getting our property managers to start probing with tenants and who's having trouble and all that. So we are compiling that, trying to understand and trying to work with them. Some kind of payment plans. That's what Texas apartment association or we call it TAA has given us guidance. But I think a lot of it depends on which sub market you are in. I mean, I know sometimes we use and it depends on and then people think, okay, my property's good but there's a lot more details to it. So whether you have a base manufacturing in that area or not, or whether you are CTO or whenever you invest it's a lot of its service industry or not a service industry is dead right now. Las Vegas, we used to be the best place to invest before two weeks ago, but up until now, the whole Las Vegas is closed down. I'm sure you people don't have money there because they are both more leisure business and gambling, hotel business. So basically there's no money, so within two weeks, things change now. So compared to places where there's a lot of manufacturing happening, this diversity of employment, you can still reduce the rent slightly and then you still get people who can pay because they are still being employed. Anton: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. And if you're right next to an Amazon logistics center, you're probably good. James: Correct. Correct. Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely. I am still getting rent right now, up to now for the past two, three days, I'm still getting rents for April, so that's a good sign but ours is all automated. It's all virtual. So probably they already set up, the ACH is all coming online, but we'll know more in the next 5 to 10 days, where it's very interesting times. But as I say, I mean last time, everybody was doing very well because the market was doing very well. Right now no sub market location becomes very important and the good thing is whoever has this agency load, I think they have many ways to weather this; either take the forbearance or just ride it through because your loan is there. But guys with short term loan, this is very, very tricky right now and you talked about the bridge loans and all that. Do you see the same issue with loans on credit union, the banks, small banks and all that? Do you think they still have issues similar to bridge loan guys? Anton: No. I mean, what we have seen was actually so far has been very positive where particularly these small credit unions and banks have been very cooperative in finding solutions better rates for barons. And that seen before it started. Why it's almost like, okay, we understand, we are reaching a now a tough period of time and that you're willing to either modify it along to stretch it out to lower the right. So they feel very at least a good number of them that we have heard back from, from various borrowers have had a very good experience there. James: Got it, got it. So are they being managed by a FHK well? The small banks and credit unions? Anton: No, it's all balance sheet based. So these are really the easy loans to long straddle which unite the loans and then secured the heist then too, they are in the same boat as I would say all the other loans that are out there. I'm talking the ones that typically it's more the small loans somewhere in the $300,000 to maybe 2 million, 3 million range. So not really the large lumps, they are some exceptions there but they are loans that are not a significant burden on their balance sheets and it's much better for them to work out these existing lumps that they have on the balance sheet that are on the basis of still that we sound them just going through a hard time but they are willing to work it out with the borrowers. So that's really for the ones that are on balance sheets and the ones that really have had success, the borrowers or the ones that have already very good established relationships with these banks. So they know the owners or the branch manager and that brings us back to that relationship. Now is more important than ever. Whether you do a new loan now or whether you already have an existing loan, the way you will have managed your relationships, whether it's your tenants, whether it's your property management company, whether it's your lender. Now that all comes back to you but if you treated them badly, they will remember if he treated them well, they are more willing to work with you. James: Yeah. And just for the audience, I mean, if you guys read my book, Passive Investing in Commercial Real Estate, I did very, very specifically mentioned that bridge loans may not be the best loan during the market peak. I'm not sure how many people read my book, but I did mention it there and that was written like two years ago. As I say, I stopped doing it just for my peace of mind and I want to make sure that I protect my investors’ money as much as possible than doing these flips at the end of the cycle and giving them; taking  large risk and trying to do a flip at the end. I rather go on a much better, safer bet with the better finance strategy. So when was this triggered to you? I know we are talking about; I think we are like two weeks into this crisis right now. But this happens so quickly. When did you feel like, okay, we are in trouble right now because you and I spoke and we had like 12 different reasons why the market can go bad. We have Brexit, I don't know if we have 12 things. I can't remember what the exact things. We had so many things we laid out what could go wrong, but I believe this is completely out of the norm. A medical health issue, a virus infection that's causing everybody to stay at home. I mean, is that right? When did you start to think that, oh my God, this could be the next recession? Anton: Yeah, I mean, we have seen already pressure in the system for a while, where we have seen that already [21:06unclear] was an issue and in the banking system we have seen it already last fall and we have seen it in January and February. Just because of the all whole world view that we have reached a point where everyone is getting more concerned. But it was still possible with the fad essentially doing all these liquidity measures in the past, as soon as there was the slightest view that there might be a little bit of a slowdown. So they were able to essentially put as much liquidity into the market as they needed to. Now, I would say the current situation and where we are now on the lending side really has started just about two weeks ago. It's not that it really built up. Obviously everyone was watching what was happening in China and then slowly in Europe. And as it was building up in Europe, suddenly the clouds came out. But you may recall at that point the treasuries dropped significantly. The fed already dropped the rates once and that actually resulted in some of the best time to borrow and to refinance. So that we had maybe a period of two weeks, maybe three weeks. But I think it was just around two weeks. Then we were able to get essentially 10 year and 12 year loans at close to 3%. I know someone that was not arranged through us, but I know someone who bought the rate that was below 3%, I think it was 2.94 or something like that and that lasted really just for a brief period of time until two weeks ago and everyone realized we have a problem and that problem really just was shown again in the market that there was no liquidity. And the fed will stay in coming out with their one and a half trillion injection where they said we are going to buy as much treasuries as we need and we are going to buy commercial papers and that still didn't do anything to the market. And then so the spreads started to do tighten on the agency loans at that point and then we were up into the mid two, three, 3% in Olin rates. And then this weekend and the lamps, as you may recall last weekend, that we, the fed announced that they are now buying also agency NBS for as much as it is needed. So now obviously the hope was there that they would provide the contents to the market that was so much liquidity that they are willing to put into the market that no investor in these NBS should be concerned and that that would stabilize at least the multifamily market. Always leave a half note to say that they will buy all the commercial mortgage backed securities like hospitality or retail based NDS. But it still did not help when it came to the agency side. And I would say that was probably the biggest surprise so then that deal ended on Sunday and then on Monday the agency spreads actually went up by 75 to 100 basis points. So, even though they announced it that they will buy us many agency mortgage backed securities as the market needs to get the liquidity in the market, obviously they didn't believe it and spreads moved up even further and we all still in the same situation today.  So if you wanted to get into new agency loan today with the new Fannie loan, ten year Fannie loan, your rate will be at four and a half percent for a large Fannie loan that passed some form of, as we call it, permission-based, like with affordability elements to it. If there was no affordability element to it, you're probably closer to 5%; and that's coming up from just three weeks ago when we were at the low threes. That's all grim because the markets, there are no buyers out there, so no one is able to price right now. Obviously the hope that that will be sorted out and I think as market participants see how the impact on multifamily is going to be in April or May it will calm down because then they understand how big that impact is and are able to determine where the priority should be, but until then, it's essentially there is an old one that is buying. That puts Fannie and Freddie in a very difficult position because obviously they are obligated to buy that loan from a lender that originates that loan and then they need to securitize it and sell it. They do not want to keep it on their book.  Even if they keep it on their book, they still have half the credit risk transfer buyers that they are going to so they're good. Fannie score has always been that they will find and Freddie too that they find other risk participants and in order to find them, the loans need to be priced so that these risks, participants are willing to buy whatever share of risks that they are participating in and right now, no one is willing to take that risk. James: I know it is crazy. I mean where we are looking at to do deals or to refinance should wait a few more weeks or because, I don't know, a few more weeks or months or what do you [27:43unclear]? Anton: Yes. I think for refi is in my view is easier. Why? Because you are not really under immediate pressure unless you're really in a very difficult financial situation. But then it's probably the last thing to consider refinancing now. I would wait on the refinancing side until the market has calmed down. Why would you want to now deal with an interest rate that is four and a half to 5% when the 10 year treasury holders are under 1%. If the market calms down, there is a reasonable expectation that the spread narrows again and that you're back down. Maybe not to the three and a half, but maybe in 4% or four and a quarter. It is such an uncertain time, but in my view it just doesn't make sense to campaign and apply for refinancing. Also the other point is since your future collections are still taken into consideration. If you apply today, a lender may underwrite your T12 up to March and everything looks great and as April and May and June come in and if the drop is pretty significant, that will impact your loan proceeds at that point too. So not only have you applied for a loan potentially at a very high rate but now with the loan proceeds are getting customers. There is so much uncertainty that in my view just doesn't make sense right at this point unless it's an absolute emergency to do so. When it comes to acquisitions I mean it needs to be a blazing deal in my view to even consider an acquisition. Because you have the same situation. How you negotiate with a seller? What clauses can you put into a contract in terms of occupancy and in terms of collections that a seller would feel comfortable with, but you are also comfortable with? Because that's really what you should do, in my view, if you go under a new contract, you should say that the occupants who need to be at certain level and the collections need to be at a certain level. And if not, then it's going to be through a re-trade.  If you don't have that, then I think the risk is just too high. And on the other side with the loan, it's essentially the same thing. So yes, you can apply for that loan, but unless you have these clauses in that PSA, you'll run the risk that you go in for a higher price. You should reprice the seller, but you cannot. But the loan amount is still being cut. So my recommendation is if you find that deal the first step is we need to get these clauses with the seller and the PSA. And if you have these clauses the way out, then you need to decide whether it's worthwhile to spend, let's say 20,000 in loan application fees and all that that you may lose. But that's ultimately the session that depends on that you feel that deal is so good. So I wouldn't say don't do it, but have these clauses in that PSA that allows you to re-trade with the seller that essentially then reflects the lower loan proceeds that you would likely get the occupancy and collection slow. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah, and also, I think it's a very tricky situation. You want to raise money but I'm sure if you find a deal, which is screaming good and you fear an experienced operator, you probably can raise the money. But it's just so uncertain right now and I don't know whether you probably already know this, I heard Fannie Mae right now is asking everyone to put like 12 months principle and taxes and insurance into escrow, I guess, right? Anton: Yes. Up to 18 month. It depends on the tier, if you're on tier two; it's up to 18 months. It's massive. At least I say it's cap that 10% of the loan amount, it's a massive amount. So obviously what does that mean? Now you need to raise more money. So you've likely also, I would say there haven't really lowered the LTV or increased that service, Coleridge recline that may come too but I would say it's more on a deal by deal basis anyhow now but let's assumes they are still in place that you still get can get these maximum leverage and the same service coverage. Just the fact that you have full these escrow that you need to build is a on top of the higher interest rate deal, which means that you need to get the lower price from the seller, there is just no way around. James: Yeah. Yeah. I think Fannie is just saying we are actually out of the market, but if you can meet this, we maybe come back. Let me just basically break it down. Anton: Yes, that's right. Yes. Yes. So actually that's always the conventional Freddie side and Fannie on the Freddie SPL side. I mean there has nothing being communicated officially, but there are solely some rumours that Freddie may stop any new origination for a certain period of time just to see their things all settled. So it will be again, the next few weeks will be extremely fascinating to watch how the market participants will from tenants to operators to lenders respond and right now we just do not know, but it's already extremely difficult even to get an agency loan into place that makes sense. But also would say it's really dangerous if someone still seek quotes from brokers and lenders that come in at the three and a half percent, because I guess they often threaten you or just to get the borrowers into the door knowing that it will be re-traded. That is another thing that borrowers really need to be acutely aware of. Do not trust any quote until you have it validated and validated, ask the broker, ask the lender multiple times, is that still valid?  Again, what we said just a couple of days ago is already outdated. It's important to be really on top of it and know what the current situation looks like. So maybe just to go quickly back to the forbearance discussion. Obviously it's a very attractive program. It's good news when you have agency loans, but I still would caution to use that forbearance and just would, because you can. Both Fannie and Freddie obviously they have implemented it.  It came down from FHA, so it was not really Fannie and Freddie that wanted to do it, but it's essentially a government driven decision that it's necessary and I think it's the right thing to do and it's a very good backstop for all the operators. However, if you operate the property in a good fashion or take it if you have owned the property already for a year or two years you should have enough operating reserves to get through a month or two without having already to suffer so much with let's say a 20% or even 30% collection loss that we needed to go back to the lender and ask for forbearance.  Now could you do it? I would say you probably could, but generally speaking I would say you really should only go back when you see that you are getting close to the 1.01105 of that service cover and essentially make a case, look, it's all bad at my property. I have a collection drop for 40% or whatever it is, I need your help. But if let's say the drop is 10% or even 15%, even 20% and you go right now to Fannie and Freddie they may agree to it, but I think it will be a negative Mark with them down the road when you go for a new loan that they feel that you really haven't attempted to work out the solution on your own first before you lend to them. So I will just to be a little bit careful there in how quickly you want to pull that trigger.  James: Yeah. Yeah. And also forbearance is not free. You have to make sure you don't even meet the person for 90 days or whatever time that you're getting that forbearance.  Anton: Yeah. That's actually an interesting part. So with Fanny, it's actually not just the 90 days. If you have that forbearance, so you're allowed essentially you have that 90 days and then you can pay it back over a stretch off twelve months without any late fees and interest charge on it. Now, Fannie has communicated that you are not allowed to extend the 90 days of forbearance, which is obvious, but also that you're not allowed to be late until you bring the loan current, which includes that 12 month of repayment period if you choose to scratch it out for the 12 months. Now, Freddy so far only refer to the 90 days. I suspect that they just forgot to mention that by the way, you need to bring it current. So I have seen it on Facebook and in some other places where people say, well, Freddy is easier because you only need to have 90 days. The eviction is halted and then you can do it again.  I suspect Freddy will probably also come out and announce that you need to bring the loan current and only then are you allowed to run your evictions again. So in other words if you want to or if you need to go back to normal that your property allows to do action, the property manager, you essentially do pay after these 90 days, then if you do not and you want to stretch out for an another three month or all the way up to 12 months, you essentially have potentially 15 months at your property. They cannot do any of evictions at all.  James: How do they track whether you're doing evictions or not?  Anton: I don't know how they... James: There's no way to? Anton: Well always a way that they can, I'm pretty sure that they all have access to the local court system and validate that you have not filed any evictions.  James: Got it. Great. Yeah, but somehow it may trigger bad [39:49unclear] if you go and not follow the agreement [39:53unclear]? Anton: That's a good question.  James: You can only say you violated our agreement, so... Anton: Maybe it's not triggering the bad [40:02unclear] but don't go back to Fannie or Freddie if you didn't follow these rules to the dot.  James: Okay. Got it. Got it. So it's just so crazy. So I mean are you already seeing that a sponsors and syndicators are getting bridge letters for people on bridge? I mean it's still very early right now to say?  Anton: No, we haven't seen anything, what we have seen is that the number of bridge lenders walked away from their loans at the last moment, I mean there are several bridge loans that we know of. Lucky for us it was none that we were arranging, but I know of a number of a sponsors that had bridge loan commitments in place that are supposed to close within a week to two weeks and the bridge lender said sorry we cannot fund. So these are situations that have happened already. It's more that lenders essentially have pulled out, but we haven't heard anything yet on existing loans that are in place by then. It's really too early. We need to see how April comes in and I would say probably takes until May until things get really bad, if a property has a massive loss of collections.  James: Based on your experience, because you have gone through 2008 and you have been in the industry for a very long time. Let's say right now Covid19 is gone within one month, so everybody start going to work, what will the impact be as we move forward to the financial market? Because that's a big shock happened in the financial market. There are a lot of people, who didn't have income for one or two months, is there a downward spiral or are we a good back again, the sun shines and everything goes back to normal. Where do you see it? What would happen? Anton: I wish I had a crystal ball, but I think the harder we land over the next few months. I think the quicker the upturn is going to be, but I still feel that they probably will take 18 months to two years until we are truly stabilized. I know some feel that everything will jump back up again right afterwards. I think the damage to consumer confidence will still be a lingering around for quite some time. Yes, there is that pent up demand for some items, but places will still suffer particularly the small businesses, some of them really are suffering tremendously and some of them are not able to come back and also I think a lot of the service employees, restaurants will be very slow in hiring. It also the reason to keep wages lower so it's the impact I think on the GDP or we probably go through obviously little jump up very quickly, again, form from a deep drop, but this year it definitely will be negative in my view but Goldman Sachs talks about roughly 3.8% for the year after a 25% drop. I think Morgan Stanley in talks about a 30% drop, who knows? But I think when you look back on 2008, also when you look back into the savings and loan crisis I haven't been around for the actual savings and loan crisis in the past but I was when I first started out in New York in banking, I was involved with a lot of the workouts of loans that went through in the early nineties that were caused during the savings and loan crisis in the 80's. So it still took several years to get out of that. And as we have seen in 2008 it took a long time to get back running. Yes, it was a very different situation then, but here the shock, in my view, is so much faster and also it's at the global level, the global economy is suffering so much and a lot of the US companies are dependent on global rate too. So everything just will take much longer to recover. That's my personal view and again, I think it probably will take two years, 18 months to two years just to fully stabilize.  James: Got it. Got it. So yeah, that's a lot of discussion about, H=hey, this is going to be a sharp V. So we go down very quickly we're going to come back and everything is normal. Even the government saying our economy's going to be roaring back again and everybody go back, it's normal again, but what you're saying is in terms of recovery, a lot of us businesses, global trade, yes, impacted, maybe the hiring would be slowed down because the profit has been lost I guess. They want to be careful, I guess. But for example, let's say a restaurant has been closed down for two months, so the third month they open again, back to business again. So do you think that will be slower in terms of hiring as well? I mean, because they're back in business. I mean they probably have two months of rent that they didn't pay.  Anton: So it won't be very interesting to see how the human behavior is going to be at that point. So particularly the first six months to nine months. So you have seen that if all the governors at federal level to say now we all clear, obviously the virus is still lingering. So I think people will still practice a little bit more of that social distancing. Everyone is a little bit more careful. Personally I feel air travel will probably not pick up nearly as fast. Why? Because everyone feels why should I want to be in that airplane with other people next to me, I cannot really walk away. Also I think launch events will have a much harder time to come back. It's really hard to tell but I just feel based on all the downturns we have gone through. Very often people say, well it comes back fast and I think the initial recovery undoubtedly will be extremely strong. I think there is no doubt about that because we are essentially shut down to a large extent so it has to come back drastically. But really come back to the confidence level, where we were before I think it will take much longer.  James: So you're talking about consumer confidence?  Anton: Yes, yes and business confidence.  James: Got it, got it, got it. Yeah, I mean I read somewhere that consumer confidence is the most important indicator for any economy or any crash or any recovery. If that comes up, everything comes up; if that goes down, everything goes down no matter what you do that consumer confidence in terms of probably spending money and doing events and taking flights and so. So for example, let's look at class A, B and C renter’s base plus B and C is a lot of service industry. People are on pay check, pay check. I don't know I'm just thinking this quickly, they may be okay. So about third month, fourth month we are back in business. I mean, unless they are wage is lower than say impacted them but if their wage is the same they probably have that wage coming back to them again. Maybe they are scared. Maybe they want to go to a lower rental amount. Maybe, I do not know. But I think still the impact to the flights and to the big companies it's going to be more because now this is a global trade. So could that be the A-class renters are more impacted compared to B and C in the long run? I'm not sure. I'm just thinking this quickly.  It depends on how fast it comes back and what is the wage they are getting and how confident they are buying.   Anton: It think when you look at most people that live in any class properties they have really decent jobs and always leave some of these jobs are now being lost or at least they are in a furlough, so they are not getting paid right now. So they can collect their unemployment; and I would say if they cannot afford it then the A class, they may move down to the B class. So that's where I would see people that struggle in these shops do not get back that I need to move down into B. I just do not see that someone who is in an A class will be willing to go into a C class property. So I would say they would probably rather move somewhere else than into a C class property. I feel kind of the same for the people that live in B class properties that moving into a C class property is for them in my view, is also kind of the last resort. Now the big question is how the residential market will evolve. We haven't even talked about that, will there be a massive dropping in prices in the short term, because no one now in some markets can even see properties.  James: Are they getting forbearance as well, the single family houses?  Anton: I think when you are a residential and not active at all in in the single family space but my understanding is if it's your own primary residence, you get forbearance you can apply for forbearance too but not for less than property. But I think I'm more wondering how it would work for someone who is in the B class property would they have an opportunity potentially then buy a property and if still not able to buy your single family home. Whether they will be able to rent a single family home instead. I just do not feel, and again, some people say that doing the last downturn, a lot of people move down from A to B and from B to C, it's hard to track. I do know that really believe anyone has been able to properly track that, but based, at least on what I have seen during that time, there was not really much movement. There was a lot of moves from A to B because of that pricing point, but it's still a decent quality property. When you are used to an A class property, but they have not really seen much coming from a B class to a C class. But again, I'm not an expert in this light there may be economist out there that have studied this.  I just feel that these movements are really happening. Now when it comes to the service employees I agree with you. Once they start back up, they need to employees right away. There is no doubt about that and that thing that's really in my view is kind of that positive flight for C class properties at the end of the tunnel. Once the shutdown is over and restaurants are able to operate again and stores are able to operate and all the other service type related business including hotels they have a job again.  James: Provided they don't have a negative wage growth, I guess which could happen as well.  Businesses may be covering this, but this is, I mean, within two miles, if I'm an operator, if I'm a restaurant, I will hire back the same people. I mean I have two options, either pay them the same amount before they leave or I pay them slightly lower. I just don't hire, that's the option [53:36unclear].  Anton: So there the question again is how many restaurants are able to reopen. So we just don't know if it's just for another month or two month, I would say the majority are able to cover the loss and go back to normal afterwards or go back to business. But a lot of them I think will without some form of a bailout, wherever that comes from will probably not be able to reopen. So that's fair. That question comes in. It's there all sort of pressure, at least in the short term on wages that whoever is in the service business now does not have as much choices as they've had pre-Covid19.  James: What about the construction loan? What's happening in that space? I mean people with construction that is ongoing right now. From what I understand, the construction loan is also a loan where if the value of the building that you're constructing drops, they may ask whoever the developer is to put in more money right now, could they be in trouble as well?  Anton: Yeah. They haven't really seen that yet. It probably depends on what phase you're in, in that construction loan. If you're in the early phases or just started the earth movements or started with going vertical and you're still in year last to start your lease up, I don't really see that that impacts it that much. If you're already doing your lease up period span, I think you need to go back to your lender and find out how you can extend that loan. You'll see, usually you may have to do three years, two and a half to three years of the construction before you go into perm and you may not need another six month to complete that lease up, but if you're early or right in doing the construction I would say it shouldn't be such a big issue because when you consider the leverage for most of these loans is relatively low anyhow. Value at your 60, 65 of cost, maybe 60, 65 to value if it's a more an established sponsor. So the leverage is not really in most senses, it's not that high to start with. So I don't think that these lenders will be holding back. I'm more concerned about, again, the harm on the construction lenders that are out there too.  James: [56:31unclear] Anton: Yes. So where you are in your eight, nine, 10% construction loans, so these players I'm more concerned about. James: Is there a chance for the construction loan guys to say, okay, I'm not funding anymore because they go on draws based on the progress of construction. Is there a chance they said, okay, we are done. We are no more funding you; we are out, even though they have signed the commitment because they probably don't have the money. I mean it’s all come from some pool of money?  Anton: Yeah. I would say you have that risk. The law to the player I would say the less likely it is. I would say if you have a strong bank, a bank will continue to do lends, if you have a life insurance company that has provided that, they're likely will continue to lend and have the access to the funds but if it's a private lender then that would be probably more concerned that they are able to continue to fund the draws.  James: Yeah. That's interesting because I think in 2008 that's what happened. A lot of construction projects. Everything stopped because everybody ran out of money.  Anton: I mean, it could happen, we do not know but at least so far we haven't seen it where they have come to a complete halt. And again, the private space I do not know, but suddenly the institutional space hasn't come to complete halt yet.  James: Got it. So the other thing that I want to just give some education to the listeners is how a loan can be made from non-recourse to recourse. And I know since we talk offline in the past crash or you had that one of the function that you are familiar with or you are doing is like lenders are trying to figure out how to make deals from non-recourse to recourse. What are the potential ways that that can happen? I mean, we know we talk about this [58:48unclear] agency loans.  Anton: So obviously I think most of your lessons that for now have that [58:54unclear] which essentially means that if you cause fraud or gross negligence, then that loan can turn into a personal recourse and one of the examples for this kind of obvious when it comes to the property operations, when it comes to gross negligence can be that you are not maintaining the insurance. That can be, even if you forget about it, that's gross negligence. So even if it's unintentional, it's still gross negligence. If you do not verify that the insurance meets all the agency requirements, particularly when you might change the insurance from one to the other and the somehow you feel, oh, I get a better rate and then suddenly you get that better premium, but you may not meet all the requirements of the loan insurance requirements. So these are kind of the obvious things like this now will all be [1:00:10unclear]. James: But usually the agency have the specialized insurance department to verify all insurance requirements met whenever we change the insurance provider?  Anton: Well, yes they should. It's essentially the service server is supposed to track this but it's still up to you to verify that you would actually need these requirements. You cannot say well the service from that lender didn't save me anything so I'm fine, that's not the way it works. It's really important that with an insurance change, always leave if you'll get the approval from the insurance person that the lender or whoever they are hiring and gives the green light and it's a different story, but that's not as you are in a loan, that's not necessarily happening, I'm not talking about when you apply for the loan, but more down the road when you make changes to that insurance.  James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my experience has been like they are very, I mean, even I've made changes to my insurance and the insurance department is so particularly they go into every line item, they make sure we are reading it. So there could be some of those lenders, which is not doing a detailed job, I guess.  Anton: Yes, that's why and it really varies from lender to lender how detailed they are now. What a lot of people do not realize and that's something that we have to discussed offline is that  your representation and your order, guarantor representations when you apply for that loan are also part of that bad boy car found. So what that means is that if you or any of your guarantors make a representation when you apply for that loan, that can ruled as inaccurate. And I'm not talking about, oh, I put in a value for a property that I felt was a million and it's only 900,000 or 800,000. I'm talking about a gross misrepresentation of your financial strength, of your experience but particularly your financial strength that can be triggering that bad boy carve out and we have seen that in the past.  You need to understand why particularly when it comes to Fannie, what a lot of people do not know is that each Fannie lender has a loss share agreement with Fannie. So they take a loss. If Fannie takes a loss, they take a loss too. And though they have that first loss arrangement. So they have an interest of loss mitigation. And obviously if the property somehow will not pay back the loan plus all the accrued charges they need to look through all the solutions. Then one of the items is that they will have a in house or external lawyers look at all the representations that were made pre-application to approve that loan or aside from all the documentation that was submitted throughout the loan being in place.  So it's very important that you trust your partners that they are or not lying. We have seen it a lot, a lot of people claim that they are accredited investors and they are participating in deals that are a 506 deals and because we don't need to verify that you are an accredited investor with these 506 deal offerings but then they suddenly then pop up and do their own or attempt to do their own syndication and then you suddenly realize, well you are not really an accredited investor.  James: But that's not really a loan thing, that's more of a system guideline?  Anton: No, that's not a loan thing. I completely agree. But that is just an example of another thing to read, most people they are so desperate to get into deals, particularly on the GP side, so many times they are stretching the truth or into deals that they are sometimes stretching the truth of what the true situation. So it's really important to ensure that all the partners and guarantors that you have on board, that they are not grossly misrepresenting their situations. Whether it's experience, financial strength, that everything on the REO schedule is really true. No one is really verifying this.  James: Oh yeah, no one read that in detail.  Anton: No one is looking at tax returns. So there is solely a risk that someone can inflate their balance sheet and their experience tremendously without being verified.  James: Got it. Alright Anton, why don't you let our audience and listeners know how to get hold of you?  Anton: Yeah, sure. So my email address is anattli@peakmff.com and that's probably the easiest to reach May also then when you're on Facebook or LinkedIn, just type in my name and then I will pop up. It's a pretty unusual name, so you should find me there and I would say that's the easiest to reach me.  James: Awesome. Thanks for coming on the show. I think this is a really, really timely show in terms of discussing the loans and all that. So sometimes when nothing happens, when we talk about how risky bridge loans are, nobody really cares. No passive way to look at what a sponsor is taking loan; they just look at the numbers and did that. But keep in mind, I did write it in my book like two years ago. So if you have read it, I mean, there's a lot of resources out there as well. You would have been warned about it,  there is nothing wrong is just market risk, sometimes you make a lot of money doing bridge loans as well, but it just depends on the market cycle and the sponsor and the syndicator, how strong they are as well. I mean, there's a lot of sponsor who's going to write this bridge lending uncertainty as well, fine. But just for anybody to be aware of, I guess. Thank you very much Anton. Anton: Yep. Thank you James. 

James: Hi audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing. Last week, we had Ivan Barratt, who owns almost 3000 units, almost $300 million assets and he's doing a lot of deals in the Midwest cities and the States. So today we have Reed Goossens from Wildhorn Capital. Reed owns with his partner Andrew Campbell, who's also a friend. They own like almost 1800 units valued at $250 million and they've been it doing almost four and a half years. Hey Reed, welcome to the show.  Reed: Good day, James, thanks for having me, man.  James: Thanks for coming. I mean I was on your show like a few years back. And you know, it's great to have you back here and I know you guys are doing a lot of deals in central Texas, like where my backyard is. I also do Austin and San Antonio, so it's going to be a good discussion on what do we see in the market, right?  Reed: Exactly, exactly.  James: So did I miss out on something in your introduction? Reed: No, not at all. You've hit the nail on the head. I'm sure a lot of people have heard my story. An Australian guy, moved to the United States back in 2012. My background is in instructional engineering. I moved here to be an expat and just to live in New York City and you know, all these years, seven, eight years later, I have found financial freedom through investing in US real estate and I moved here with little funds, no established network. And my whole shtick is that if I can move here halfway across the world and make it happen, then so can the average American sitting, you know, get off the fence and start investing in real estate because it truly is the, you know, in terms of the Western countries, it's the premium in terms of Western countries for yield and commercial real estate. And we can get into that in a minute. But yeah, that's really my background. James: Yeah, it's very interesting. I think sometimes people who have never lived outside of the US knows how much you can achieve in the US. Your own sweat equity, right? You can really work hard and come up and live and they have to really go outside and see how difficult is it to come up. And you can work day in, day out and you can work 24/7 you know, for seven days. There's always a limit your progress. Right? Reed: Exactly. Exactly. No, 100%. James: So let's go back to the market that you guys are focusing, right? Austin and San Antonio, right? So why did you choose these two markets? Reed: Yeah, so historically, originally back in four and a half years ago, we chose central Texas. I chose central Texas, it had moderate cap rates compared to, I live in Los Angeles, California. I live on the coast, very compressed cap rates, looking for something with a little bit more moderate cap rates. At the time, I was, you know, Koji paid a couple of deals with some preexisting partners. I had my systems from underwriting to deal sourcing. I sort of had that down pat. But what I didn't have down pat was a business partner, boots on the ground and that's where I met Andrew Campbell and we formed a partnership. I was getting involved in underwriting deals in Dallas and San Antonio, not in Austin as yet, you know, that will morph into that in a little bit, but in the beginning, it was just like underwriting small deals, you know, between 50 and 100 units. But what I was missing was the boots on the ground, the broker relationships. And so, what I needed was a partner like Andrew who was there, who was in the thick of it, who could go and you know, hang around the hoop and bug brokers while I sort of underwrote deals and did sort of the more the back end operational stuff. And we found a partnership back in 2007-15 I think it is. And yeah, the rest is sort of history.  We underwrote a lot of deals in the beginning, people took a bet on us in terms of, you know, brokers taking a bet on us and then we got their first deal done. And that morphed too quickly in the second deal and now going on nine deals. So it really came, it stemmed from the fact that I was needing to get a business partner who could take some of the workload off me and do something that I had a skill set that I didn't have, which was boots on the ground, access to brokers, access to deals and walking assets and I really focused on the operational side on the backend. So yeah. James: So can you give some advice to our listeners on, I mean, I know you say you needed boots on the ground, so you looked at the market and, I mean, I'm trying to help some of our listeners who are trying to do like what you're trying to do, right? You are in California, you have a partner here in Austin, Texas. And how did the discovery of that partners and boots on the ground, because it's not like I find a guy in Austin and I'm good with it. There must be some qualities in him.  Reed: Yes.  James: And how did you assess that?  Reed: Let's just rewind the clock. I'd been doing deals prior to meeting Andrew when I was living in New York City, when I first moved to LA, when I first moved to the United States. I flipped a few houses in Philadelphia and I had a business partner on that and it was sort of a JV more than a business partnership. I had people tell me that that particular person not to be named, wasn't the best partner to work with. You know, he was unorganized and blah, blah, blah. And looking back on it, he kind of was and it didn't go that great. Well, I'm no longer in business with that gentleman, but it was, I tell you that story because it's a learning curve, right? My first flip deal in Philadelphia didn't go very well. But between him and I, the old business partner, we were able to get the deal over the line. We didn't lose any investors money. And you know, we then parted ways after that because we just realized we wanted different things in life. But I say that because when you're looking for a partner, you need to understand that there's going to be some times you're going to get into partnerships that may not necessarily jive because you're hungry to get deals done and you're hungry to get the business off the ground. But when you first get started, the thing that attracted me to Andrew and what he attracted to me was we had skill sets that complemented each other. And I think that's the most important thing is the skill sets to complement each other. Because if you don't have those skill sets, then what's the point? And actually, you don't wanna be working on the same thing. So, I saw in him that he had a skill set that I didn't have and he saw in me a skillset that he didn't have; complementary skill sets are really, really important. Also, just the fact that both of us wanted to grind. We were not afraid to roll up the sleeves and work hard. At the time when I met Andrew, he was working a full-time job, I was working a full-time job and we were hustling on the weekends. He had kids, I don't have kids as yet, but you know, he had all these other external factors and so did I, in terms of, my mom was sick in Australia. All this stuff was happening and really, but we still knew that our North star was to get financially free and create a business. And years later, we've achieved that, which is awesome. But when it boils down to it is we are business partners first and friends second. I view Andrew's one of my better friends now, but that's because we came through business partnership, right? Andrew also runs a different crowd than I do. He's very much in the, you know, play golf and all this stuff where I'm more of the go surfing. If you're watching this video, go surfboard in the background. You know, I'm very, very different. Ying to his yang and we did a presentation last week at the best ever conference in Denver, my sorry, in Keystone, Colorado. And what we were talking about where was that real estate is the art and science, right? Real estate form is an art and there's a science of it. Andrew is very much the art and I'm the science behind it. So it's the marriage of two different polar opposites that can really make a successful business and partnership work. So all that type of stuff is like you have to assess what you're good at, right? You have to assess your pros and what you're bad at and do what you don't want to do. But you have to also realize that being in this game of real estate investment, you know, whatever size you do, whether it be from flipping houses all the way through to doing large commercial multi-families like what we do, James, you and I, you have to realize that you need a team. And having someone, a copilot, a co-captain sitting right next to you, bearing taking some of the responsibilities and taking some of the pressure off you as an entrepreneur and business owner, it's so vital. It's paramount to the growth because you will grow by bringing on a partner that works and is harmonious with. Then, you know, looking back, I wouldn't be sitting here today talking about 1800 units and a quarter billion dollars worth of assets under management if I didn't go out and find Andrew, vice versa. He wouldn't also be sitting in the same position if he didn't find me. So it's a combination of seeing what you're good at, what you lack at and seeing if you can find someone that can meet you halfway in the middle and that you can get on and you have those similar goals and visions, but you also can work hard to achieve a goal. James: Got it, got it. So I mean when you guys, I mean, I'm trying to go into this partnership because I think a lot of people are trying to get a partner to partner with them and they just need to know how does a successful partner look like when you were like, cause you guys are very successful in partnering up. So how was that discussion? I mean somebody brought up, okay, let's find out, we partner up. Right? So, and what was the other person saying? Because sometimes people say, Oh, well, I'm not sure yet. Right? So there's not going to be like, let's partner up and everybody's going to be partnering.  Reed: Look, let's not beat around the bush here, it is like dating. If anyone's been out in the dating world, same fricking thing. [09:46crosstalk] a few times. I guess Reed: Exactly. [09:48crosstalk] a few people before you get into bed with someone and skews the crass. But you know, it's an interpersonal relationship. It's a feeling you get from the other person that, Hey, this person could work. Now, it could've gone badly, but it's the same, you know, when you do go out on a date, you get an energy from that person, you can feel that they want the same thing that you want. You have conversations, you get to know one another. It wasn't just like, Hey, let's partner. It was over a period of, you know, three to six months that Andrew flew out to LA with his wife. He got to meet my wife. I flew out to Austin, I met his kids. It was a courtship, you know, similar to how you would date someone. And through that, we were able to have candid conversations about where we're headed, the goals and really align with, you know, he'd lost his mom through cancer, I'd lost my mum through cancer. So we had some very much some things that aligned. Plus also the fact that we could hustle and we could grind and graft hard. You know, that was a plus. And we had complementary skill sets. It sort of was ticking a lot of boxes. But at the end of the day, the first couple of deals, we were very much Reed and Andrew. It was RSN, which was my old company and Wildhorn and we took down this first couple of deals, really as individuals but you know, using our entities to partner in case something did go wrong and we can just, okay, look, we'll sell the deals and we'll go our separate ways.  Over time, that morphs into one banner, one marketing arm and that's where RSN falls away and we went with Wildhorn because he was based in Texas and we became more of a partnership. And look, I'll tell you here today James is that partnerships also don't last forever. You know, Andrew and I have had conversations. I'm from Australia originally. I know that in 10 years' time when I'm 43 years of age, I want to have some investments back in Australia. Andrew might not be involved in those deals but for right now, we're looking to double the portfolio in the next three to five years and we're looking to make some successful exits. And that's all I can promise, right? I don't know what's going to happen in 10 years. The biggest thing for me, James, is that I picked up the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad back in 2009 and, you know, we just finished 2019. So a decade later, I'm sitting on a podcast with you telling you about my assets under management. I had no fricking idea that I would be doing that 10 years later. And so what the message is, don't plan your 10 years ahead, work right now. What's in front of you. See what doors open, which is, you know, Andrew and I are having a really successful partnership and relationship and we're going to double our portfolio next three to five years and just be okay with that. And don't worry, the future will figure itself out from there. You know what I mean? Because you can overestimate what you can achieve in a year, but you can underestimate what you can achieve in a decade. And so my whole story, my main message to people out there is when you do look at partnerships, understand that they morph over time. They may come together for five, 10 years and they might go apart and that's okay. That's how businesses evolve. That's how entrepreneurs evolve as human beings. And you have to also, not sacrifice but surrender to that and understand that that might change in the future and that's okay. Right? Because as you know, multifamily isn't very hot right now. It's everyone, every man and their dog is in there so you might have to pivot and change different business structures. James: I mean, absolutely. That's really good conversation there. But some of the key nuggets I want to recap, right? I mean, a lot of people talk about a partnership is always complementary skills, but it's not that, right? I mean, that's one thing, that's just one part of it but there's a lot of core values. I mean, you and your partner have a lot of core values similarity and take time to discover that, right? I mean, based on your family stories and based on your goal because you can find a partner with complementary skills, but who may not want to hustle. He may not have the goal that you want. I mean, there are certain aspirations that anyone who's hungry for achievement want and you know, he expected the same on this partner and I'm sure you guys found that.  So let's go back to the market that you have chosen in central Texas and I'm sure people have learned it's not only a compromise, it's a lot more than that and you guys have to discover it. And one more thing I want to recap on the partnership is the way that you guys set up your company, right? Two of you guys, I remember the RSN Capital Group, if I'm not mistaken and Andrew has his own and you guys kept it separate, which is really good. That's how I would recommend to anybody who wants to do a partnership. Keep the entity separate, put it into one LLC and buy a deal and in case something doesn't work out, you can always fade it out. Right. So yeah, I've seen a lot of people where on day one itself, create one LLC and hold partners on one LLC and they can never split up when something happens. Right. So, awesome. So let's go to the market. You chose central Texas, you found your first deal. Did you find the deal first or did you analyze the submarket first? Reed: All of the above. I was looking in Dallas, I was looking in San Antonio. I was just really seeing what... I was underwriting a lot of deals. Before that first deal came to me back in 2000...sorry, leading up to that point was when Andrew and I met then we went and underwrite like a hundred deals before we go that first deal under contract. But if I look at the why behind central Texas, you also gotta understand where I come from and I made this speech last Thursday night at the best ever conference, I come from a country in Australia and you have to put it in context, right? Because part of my special power, part of my superhero, part of my special sauce that I bring to Wildhorn Capital is my international perspective. And the reason that is so special is though I can look at things through a different lens. So what do I mean by that? Well, I compare just to Australia and America, right? Australia and America, the land of mass, I'm talking about excluding, let's ignore Alaska for a second, but just those two landmasses, they're roughly the same size, give or take. However, in Australia, we can only inhabit about 18 to 19% of our land because the rest is a desert. And so everything is full. Everyone is forced into major cities. Everyone's forced to the coast. And so we have a small population, we only have 24 million people. Unlike here in America where you can inhabit North to South, East to West and you have 300 million people so we don't even have 1/10th.  The reason I'm bringing all this up is because I grew up in an area where we have a high demand but low supply environment, right? What does that mean when you have high demand, low supply environment? You have low cap rates. In major markets in Australia, in major markets in other Western countries, commercial real estate cap rates are sub 3%. I'm going to spout off some big names, but you look at London, you look at Sydney, you look at Hong Kong, you look at Singapore, office space and then there's probably the only thing that is a common thread between all of them. Office space in those markets are sub 3% maybe even 2%; where you can buy office space in New York City or LA or now even Austin for full cap.  And so when you've got these international perspectives of like, wow, I've come from a market where historically there's been low cap rates for decades because of supply and demand and I see the same thing happening in central Texas where the GDP of all of Texas is greater than that of all of Australia. I'm doubling down on that and that market, because a place like Austin, Texas has now transitioned from a boom-bust town into a tier-one market like Los Angeles, like Sydney, like Singapore, like London. Where dirt is trading for as much or even more as the coastal market. So when you have high demand like you do in Austin, low supply coupled with a very high barrier to entry for new product, which means buying dirt, getting an approved construction, doubling down on existing assets in a market like Austin means that coming to the recession in the next couple of years, you'll be able to ride that out because you have a high demand and a low supply.  I also come from a country where we have not had a recession in over 27 years because of, obviously physical policy, the way in which we invest our pension funds is a lot deeper than that. But again, I say this all to give you the lens that I look through when I'm looking at different assets. One other thing that not many people know, multifamily does not exist in Australia because of the lack of financing vehicles. We only have 25 million people. We have four or five major banks. Those four or five major banks do not lend money on a new apartment construction unless you've pre-sold X amount of units, which is a combo market. So they lend on a build to sell, not a build to own. Right? And so when you don't have those sophisticated financing vehicles as you do here in these States, you know, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae interest only for 10 years, Ameritrade over 30 years, the fact that multifamily doesn't even exist in Australia when I first moved here coupled with population GDP growth, seeing markets transition from a boom-bust into a high demand, low supply environment, seeing markets transition into, it's a high barrier to entry for new product, all those things add to why I would double down in a market like that into help me ride out the next 10 years.  Because remember James, the last 10 years that we've had just had, since 2009, has been the best 10 years for multifamily, probably in history, right? We're not going to see the next 10 years are not going to be the same. And so as an investor, as an operator, you need to look for markets where there's true growth. Now, you compare Austin to New York and San Francisco and LA, money is still being invested in those markets because of the demand. So people still invest in these coastal markets because of the longterm gains that they are going to make. And a lot of people have made a lot of money in a short term period over the last 10 years and I think that's going to be the same trend moving forward. And that isn't completely incorrect. And if you think that's going to happen, you need to go invest in something else, in my opinion, James: It's crazy on how much the tide has gone up or the past 10 years and everybody thinks multifamily is the same, right? It's a commodity now, but it's not. I mean, at some point the wage growth is going to hit some limitation and you're going to have a problem, right? So you have to be really ready as when you say; that's really awesome. And the other thing about Austin though, other than coastal cities, a lot of coastal cities are getting rent control, whereas Austin, I don't think that we'll ever get a rent control. Even those20:30unclear] city, but it's in there. Reed: Yeah. Even if that was to happen, people still make a lot of money in places like LA, New York, San Francisco, they're making a lot of money and it's because of the value of the dirt. And everyone's got to realize you buy real estate for the value and now that is what is intrinsically is going to grow over time. The fact that when I first moved to this country, I noticed that land, at least in LA, in New York and San Francisco, land is key. You're right, it's what holds the value that, the asset depreciates over time, but in central Texas, the asset is more valuable than the land, that's slowly starting to change, right? As demographics changes, people move as population grows, as GDP grows, all that sort of stuff in terms of supply and demand; that then means that dirt is worth more, right? Dirt is where the value is. And if you hold it for a long period of time, I'm talking seven to 10 years, you're going to do just fine. James: I was happy to know that. You know, I'm not sure whether you'd known, Tim Ferris moved to Austin like a few months ago, a few years ago. I need to find out why. I mean, I listen to his podcast and his podcast is awesome, right? So, let's go to underwriting. So let's say you get a deal today, right? What are the things, what are the sniff test that you do before you look into the second level details? Reed: Yeah, look, stiff test, it's a hard thing for a sniff test these days because there's so much more to this story. It goes back to the art and the science of underwriting. Back in the day, five, six years ago, yeah, you can do back of the napkin and  does it make sense? Yes. Does it not make sense? No, because you had so much, you had a cap rate that was moderate and you had an interest rate that, you know, was a Delta of maybe 200 basis points you could get cash flow. Today, it's not like that; that spread between interest rates and cap rates have compressed, right? Its cash flow becomes harder to achieve, thus you need to understand the story and that's where the art comes into it, not necessarily the science. So I still look for a spread between going in cap rate or a stabilized cap rate and interest rates. I want to make sure there's at least a hundred basis points in there and that's growing over time and when I model it out over five or seven years, that continues to grow. But I also want to see now, I'm looking at deals where there's other opportunities. So, we are about to buy a deal south of the river in Austin, Texas. It's the lowest cash flowing deal we've ever put out. And we're oversubscribed to that deal because of the location. Now what you don't know, if you looked at just at the numbers on that thing, you think, Oh God, it's a really low cap rate, but you don't realize that if you don't know the story behind what's happening in that area, 600 units are going to be completely demolished and taken offline in the next 24 months. So do you think that's going to have an impact on our rents and the occupancy? Of course, it is. But how do you underwrite to that? You can't, you've got to underwrite it if it's a value add multifamily.  This is where the story comes in and where you need to go bigger than the sniff test because this is what market we're in. Also, we know that this land that we're buying, we're buying 12 acres where the density could be doubled on this plot of land. It can go from 294 units, we could go and put 500 units on it. Now whether you go and execute on that as a different thing, but that could be an exit option for someone in the future for a developer to buy if all these investments in the South of the river there near the Oracle is to come to fruition. Then again, I'm seeing very similar trends as if I'm looking at an ally or a New York market. So these are all the things that I look at now and you have to go deeper. You have to do more than just a sniff test because we're not in those days anymore. We're in a different market and we have to spend time. I have four analysts that work for me and they spend a minimum of three to four hours on any one deal. Andrew is the guy that makes sure he feels out the deals that we see but if he thinks that there's a bit of a something a little bit more to sniff out and he's got a little bit more an art to it, than the science, then we will dive deep into it and we'll spend three or four hours underwriting it. And it still might not work at that point, but we've gone and exhausted all avenues to make sure that it isn't a deal that works for us. James: So, what you're saying is you have stopped looking for the normal cash flowing value-add deal. You're looking more for the path of progress and you know the story behind the deal as the future appreciation I would say, future potential in that deal., I guess. Reed: Future potential because your whole podcast name is called increasing your wealth through adding value, right? You may add value by entitling the land to have a bigger a density on it. That is adding value.  James: Absolutely. Absolutely.  Reed: Any way you add value but historically it's been all, we'll put lipstick on a pig and hopefully it looks good. So that's gone, right? There are still those markets out there. There's still these deals out there. You can still find them and don't get me wrong, but when you become more sophisticated when you become more advanced in your underwriting when you become more experienced, you start seeing different trends and why the big guys, and let's not beat around the bush here, I've worked for big developers in LA, in New York, and they don't have podcasts, they don't have books, but they own half of Beverly Hills. The reason the way the big dogs are, they're still buying these pieces of dirt, they're still buying these trophy assets and putting it in. They're still selling to rates, they're still selling to insurance companies and making a lot of money and you've never heard of their names. So I've come from that background and that is where exactly how my mindset has now shifted to start understanding the pennies dropped, ah, and now I know why those guys do what they do is because of the value which the supply and demand curve, we go back to that a lot, that demand is high and supply is low. James:  I mean it's very interesting, look at things differently. And I met someone the other day who was buying land on a, it's called a submerge land, land under the Lake. And she was saying, Oh, I sell that. I say, how do you sell that? So it's a very interesting story on when a boat comes, you know, you need to dock on your land, even though it's under the water, but they can still sell it. Mixed with different kinds of people, go out of this, the normal value add, I would . To see those kinds of things. So yeah, it's absolutely, you know, it makes sense to do creative stuff as long as you're doing it in the right market. Reed: It does all come down to market and it does all come down to just reacting to the market. Right? You got to react and you go to, as entrepreneurs, we're riding the wave, the wave of change is ever-evolving. And so we have to be ready to look at things through a different lens to not be ignorant of other options that you can do to your property. Because you know, it's about being creative, just be creative with the piece of land and you can figure out many different ways in which you can make money from it. So it's just understanding that rather than just plugging, implying and you know, buying at a six cap and getting interest rates at a full cap and having all this cashflow and yada, yada, yada. There are still those deals out there, they're a lot harder to find and thus you need to be a little bit more educated in terms of the value that you bring to your asset now coming into, you know, a new economy that we're in. James: So do you see some of the investors who are used to getting cashflow and doing value add on the rent and all that, do you see some of the investors dropped out? I mean they don't buy into the idea or you think a lot more people buy into the idea or you just finding different people buying into the ideas? Reed: Last year we rolled out and we were the first ones in the industry to do it in the multifamily industry, at least in our little circle, the AB structure, we brought that to market first. We closed on a deal first. The way we do that is by offering 25% of the equity has 10% preferred return paid current. And that means that you can satisfy those cashflow customers or investors with that class A bucket. Class B bucket that they have an accruing pref but they get all the back end. They get 70% of the backend so they're looking for the equity multiple and we then divide it out the investor group into two pots. We can now see who wants what but what it does mean is that if we buy a deal that cashflow is 2% out of the gate, which is pretty much a lot of deals only cash flow very little out of the gate, you can pay that 10% pref straight up to 25% of the equity.  If you have 25% of the equity not participating in the backend, then that juices the IRR to the class B. All these things we are doing in terms of structure because we are reacting to the market and because we're not just blindly going along and not getting any deals done because, oh, it doesn't work like it used to work. Well, we're changing the way in which we structure ideas. We're changing the way in which we underwrite ideals to back into making sure we're appeasing our investors that have some cashflow, a bucket but we've also got the equity appreciation bucket and having honest, candid conversations with our investors that, hi, if you give me 100,000 bucks, does it really matter if I give you seven grand every year? Is that going to change your life or does it more matter that you give me $100,000 and in five or six years' time, I'll give you back $250,000? Is that more valuable to you?  When you have those conversations with those investors, they start thinking differently. And people that they think, Oh, the pref isn't being met, oh, that means it's a bad deal. No, it just means that the deal is getting out of the gate into different velocities where another deal is. And so looking at the longterm play, real estate, James, is a longterm play, not a get rich quick. And that's why I say a lot of people have done so well with their money in the last 10 years. They've doubled, triple their money in three to five years and I think that's still the norm. Well it's not and that's where you have to readjust your expectations. And that's where, again, my international perspective where I've come from a country where if you double your money in 10 years, you're doing just fine. The longterm play is what real estate is and people sometimes lose that vision of what longterm means and they think long term is three years. James: Yeah, that's true. Sometimes people are just so used to what they make in the past 2012 to 2017/18, keep on looking for the same yield and you know, that kind of deal is no more existing.  Reed: And investors appreciate being candid. Investors appreciate having those open and honest conversations. And why would you take a lower return? You're taking a lower turn because it's risk-adjusted. You're not investing in a tertiary market or a secondary market where it may get really rattled if they have another recession, you're investing in lower risk, and thus you have to adjust your expectations when you go and invest in a market like Austin with lower risk, low margins. James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Risk-adjusted return is something that a lot of people don't understand. I mean if you're making 6% in an awesome market compared to you're making a projected 8% I would think is projection in the beginning, maybe before you invest, everything's projection, right? Someone tells you they're going to give you a 20% IRR in a tertiary market compared to someone's going to give you a 10% IRR in a solid market. That 10% is actually much better than the 20%  because the risk is lower.  Reed: The risk is lower. But also you look at like if you want no risk, go put your money in a treasury, the 10 year treasury and that's what 1.32% if you want zero risk, go do that. And if I'm offering you six or 7% return, I think I'd rather place my money. So backed by physical real estate where you can have all the tax depreciation, no other investment holds up. So obviously the stock market is doing very, very well, but you have to also combat apples to apples and that is, you know, one is risk, two is volatility, three is tax depreciation and four is access to capital. And so all those things play into effect when you think about real estate versus other ways in which you can make money in this world. So yeah. James: Yeah. I think I saw the way you guys structure the class A and B, where you have one person class A is like flat 10% or in a certain percentage, I can't remember the number. Reed: It's flat 10% but the class side does not participate in the back end and then you've got class B that has an accruing 7% pref and you catch up upon sale but they get 70% of the back end. And those investors are more focused on the equity multiple rather than the cash flow. And thus, you're splitting the bucket but you still offer them both. The investors can still have some in A and some in B, but you limit the cost A to 25% of the equity. So it helps, you know, juice the IRR. James: And does the class A, the 10%, get paid from day one itself?  Reed: Correct.  James: Okay. Okay. Reed: You can do the math, right? So if you have $1 million of equity, 25% of $1 million of equity is $250,000. 10% of $250,000 is 25 grand, a year. Now, $1 million in equity, that's probably going to buy a $4 million property. You think a $4 million property could cashflow in any one year, 25 grand? I think it could. Yeah. So that's where the special souls comes in because you're paying 10% on 25% of the equity. So thus your cashflow out of the gate can be lower and you can still hit that 10% preferable. James: Yeah. So do you see...we trying to get filled up fast. I know one has a smaller pool, the other one's bigger, right?  Reed: So, we also have a higher barrier to entry on the class A so we have $100,000 minimum. And we have a lot of people wanting class A. The thing is we tend to see costs, on the first deal, it got filled up really quickly. On the second deal, it was a little bit more equal, you know? So, but here's the other thing, class A investor is if my deal, I'm not hiding anyone from it and it's the truth, they get paid first, right? So if I go and refi and I hold it for five years and I decided I'm not going to sell, I'm actually going to refi, well, I can refi it and pay all my investors costs I owe their money and they're out of the deal. And I can replace class A with cheaper, cheaper debt, right?  Cause if I'm paying them 10% of their money and I can get debt at full percent, then I've just essentially, you know, taking them out of the deal. Now there's a risk there that they're out, right? And I have investors saying, well you could just come along and do that. It's like yes I can. That's part of, you know, real estate and debt stacks. Right. I can just replace as the value of the asset grows, I can replace the debt and I could potentially have a debt number that could take you all out of the deal. They've gotta be okay with that. But they sit in a safer position, they sit just behind the debt. They don't sit in class B, they sit in class A side.   James: Got it. Got it. So it looks like if you look at class A and you are saying is much more attractive. A lot of people compared it to class B [inaudible] right. Can you hold on, let me just fix my staff cause I didn't want this to be half. Okay, good. So forget about it. So let's start again. So class A has a lot more attractiveness to it and compared to class B because class A people get 10% flat, I guess, right?  Reed: Well, yes and no, there's pros and cons for both. I just explained the class A that yes, I sit at and I have a 10% pref, but their cap did it at a certain return. They cannot earn any more than 10%.  James: And you can buy them out at a refi? Reed:  I can buy them out at any stage and if we smack the deal out of the park and 20% IRRs, they share none of that because they want to sit in a safer position. And that's where class B, yes, you're sitting behind class A, but you get all the profits, you know, we split all the profits, profit sharing at the end. And so again, you have to understand capital stacks and you have to understand risk in relationship, just capital stacks in order to really grasp your mind around the AB structure. It's pretty simple once explained. And I can show you a diagram if for any investors who might be interested in it, but again, it's just a different way of looking at it and I come from the ground up construction world. I've built a lot of ground up multi-family. This is exactly how multi-families constructed a finance. Your debt, you have a mez equity piece, you have equity, and then you have the GP and it's just capital stack and math. So it's very basic, once you get your head wrapped around it. And probably a lot of people scratching their heads thinking, Oh my God, what's he talking about? James: No, no, for me, it's pretty simple. I mean, I think it makes sense. I mean there's risk in both classes and you take that risk. I mean, even in my book about, you know, different investors want different things. Some people just want cashflow, 10% flat cash flow. Some people really want the equity. I mean, it depends on their life cycle, where they are in your life cycle. Reed: And so as an operator, I've got to continue offering that. And the way I've offered it in terms of how deals and now underwriting is, that's how I've split the baby from the bathwater as they say. You know, I've split it and made sure that I can serve as both the type of investors who one wants cash flow, the other one wants longterm appreciation. James: Got it. Got it, got it. So, Reed, let's go to more personal stuff. I mean, can you name like top three things that you think is your secret sauce to success? Reed: That's a hard one. Look, there are no secrets. Hard work is...let's talk about secrets. Hard work is so underestimated. I moved to this country. I didn't have a job. I was an engineer. I literally dawned on a suit and I knocked on 50 different engineering joints and engineering companies until I found a person to say yes. I'm not afraid of hard work. Am I lucky? Have I got a bit of luck in this? Sure. I'm lucky that I was born into a really awesome family that, you know, I come from a blue-collar working background, I've got blue-collar work ethic. I'm not afraid to roll up the sleeves and get my hands dirty. I'm also not afraid to back myself. I think that's another key to success is like you've got to learn and you've got to be okay with betting on yourself. And I remember when I first took that plane from Australia, I quit my job, my well paying job in Australia and I moved to the United States to give it a crack. As I say, you know, I was betting on myself. I was betting that I can figure this out. I might not have had the answers at that point, but I knew that I was resourceful enough to figure it out and I have. And so those two things, there's a little bit of luck in there, but it's also hard work and learning to back yourself; are really too important skill sets, life skill sets that that people need to learn. And I've developed that through going and backpacking around the world with, you know, $2,000 in my pocket, you know, understanding the value of a dollar and stretching a dollar. You know, people ask me all the time, well, what advice could you give to a 20-year-old? Go backpacking, go to a third world country, go backpacking for two years, come back and then you go find yourself, you go in the university of life, figure it out, go understand a little bit of the street ways and then come back and you'll get started. I think going out and widening your horizon, taking off the blinkers and experiencing other cultures, otherwise how people live their lives is all parts of learning and why I that I've been very lucky that I was able to travel and I paid for my own travel. I've saved my own money. I was able to go out and do it and experience different cultures, take on their advice, take on the wisdom and internalize it and spit it out and say this is what I want to do with my life. So a couple of pieces of advice of success there. James: Yeah, absolutely. Now I realize why people go backpacking and never really understand, but you made it very clear, right? Cause you really like on the street with a shoestring budget and you're talking to different people, you're talking to normal people. Reed: You get a skill.  I'll tell you a story. I was in South America, this is 10 years ago and I had a rule. I was backpacking by myself. The most invigorating thing I've ever done in my entire life, James i,s to backpack by myself. I had no one to answer to, I would meet someone at a hostel or a group of people and say, this is awesome, let's go. But you get really bloody good at determining if you're going to be, you know, you only have 30 seconds to make an impression and I'm going to either have to have a beer with you or I'm not gonna have a beer with you. And it was very quick, that skill became very, very quick. I had a rule that when I was backpacking by myself, you know, if I go into a bar and I hadn't met someone within three drinks, I'll move to another bar. I never left that first bar because it was always about putting yourself out there, being vulnerable, talking to other backpackers and getting that interpersonal skills really sharpened and really honed in. And that's part of what you learned from backpacking.  James: That's very interesting. That's the perspective that you get when you go backpacking. Let's go to another one more aspect of your life. Is there a proud moment in your life that you can never forget until the end? One proud moment that you're really, really proud that you think, I'm really proud of myself. Reed: I think getting that first job in New York City, getting that first job, getting that visa, I was proud that that was, I did it. Like that was the coming to America story. In order to stay, I needed a visa, I needed a job. And so that proud mate, if I got that job, it meant that that was, you know, talk about doors opening. That was the first door that I could unlock. And that then meant that there's a bunch of other doors behind it. But that meant I could stay and I could figure it out. And that was the first proud moment that I think, it was, you know, again, I was literally walking the pavements, knocking on doors because in 2012 you know, putting your resume out into the indeed.com or whatever just was useless. I needed to go knock on doors and say, Hey, here's my resume. I'm more looking for a job. And a lot of people said no, but it takes that one, yes. And that one yes can change your life. So that one yes for the job that meant that I could stay in the United States. It meant I can continue the journey.  James: Got it. Got it. So one other question from one of the passive investors is like, is there any advice that you would give to passive investors that are investing in a syndicated commercial real estate? Reed: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is you have to have an alignment of interest, trust, and transparency but do you get on with the operator? Because the number one thing that passive investors want to invest in is they don't actually invest in the deal, the deal is sort of second secondary, right? The first thing is the person. Who re you investing with, who is your partner that you're going to go into this deal with, who is the operator who's going to take control of this asset? And if you don't like them or you don't have that energy that I spoke about earlier, then don't invest with them. And it's very easy to figure out who you like and who you don't like. And again, this is a world, of  life is short and you want to do business with people who you like and you want to be with, right? That's the whole point of why we do this business. And it goes both ways, both from the operation point of view, my point of view, and also from the passive investor point of view, we're all in this business to make money. Let's do it with people that we like. So I think that's the short of it. James: So Reed, why don't you tell our audience and listeners how to get hold of you and how to Reed: Yeah, sure. So I've got for those listeners who like to read, I've got two books. I've got the Investing in the US which is on Amazon. It was a bestseller last year. You can find that and I've also got 10,000 Miles to the American Dream, a story of financial freedom. So those two books are on my website or on Amazon. You can go to reedgoossens.com, that's www.reedgoossens.com. Everything's up there. My podcasts are up there, my blogs are up there. If you have any questions, you can click on little links and stuff. And I always offer people or listeners, if they're coming through LA and they want to meet up for a beer or lunch, I'm always interested to meet up and talk shop. You just got to email me at info@reedgoossens.com and just give me enough heads up and let me know when you come through town. James: Awesome. Great. Welcome. And thanks for coming into the show and I'm sure you added tons of value. Reed: Thank you very much, mate.  James: Alright, bye.  

James: Hey audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieved Wealth Through Value Add Real Estate Investing podcast. And today we are doing a slightly different format. We are doing a podcast plus a webinar and I have Dr. Glennn Mueller here. So Dr. Glennn is someone I have been following for many, many years looking at his real estate market cycle studies and he's a professor at University of Denver. He has been doing this almost 36 years, if I'm not mistaken, has gone through many, many different market cycle. And, Dr. Glennn, why not tell our audience what I didn't cover in terms of introducing yourself. Glenn: Sure. So I've actually been in the real estate field for the past 45 years. Started out as a loan analyst at United bank of Denver and by chance got put into the real estate group after a couple of years, realized that real estate people made a lot of money, went out and started my own construction and development companies and built custom homes for about seven years and then decided that I wanted to have a change and a different lifestyle. So I went back to school, got my PhD in real estate and started teaching at the University of Denver. I hired away by a big institutional investor, Prudential real estate investors and then onto a Jones Lang LaSalle. And then started working on the security side with Wreaths Real Estate Investment Trusts at Lake Mason. I ran the research group there and then one of my client's black Creek group invited me to come and head up research for them. And I've been with them now for the past 15 years and at the same time teaching as a full professor at the University of Denver. So I guess I'm a typical real estate type A personality running two jobs at the same time. But a lot of my research is focused on real estate market cycles, which is what we're going to talk about today. James: Yes, yes, correct. And real estate is very interesting because sometimes it's very hard for us to make it into a very analytical format. And when I look at your charts and the work that you do, you have really break it down to science. I mean, of course, definitely there's art in real estate but there's a lot of science to it as well. And it comes from years and years of research, like what you have done. And that's very important for people like us who are basically active investors who are buying deals day in, day out and going to different market cycles and it's also more important for people who have never gone to a full market cycle. Like, even for me, I've not gone through a down cycle yet and there are tons and tons of people who have not gone to a down cycle, so we always wonder how this different cycle is impacted by different property types. What do you call us, like industrial, self-storage, apartments, office and retail and few other things. So this presentation that you're going to be doing on the webinar and throughout the podcast, we're going to try to clarify some of the slides that's going to be covered here so that the people who are listening to the podcast is going to be able to follow too as well. And this going to be difficult [03:26unclear] Glenn: So do you want to... James: Go ahead doctor? Glenn: So if you'd like, if you want, I've got my slides ready to go. We could probably go to that. I can start in. James: Let's start, I mean I'm going to name this podcast, A State of the Union of Commercial Real Estate Property [03:46unclear] so let's go through it. Glenn: Throw the word cycles in there someplace because I do real estate cycles. So let me actually bring that to full screen size to make it easier to see. Is that clear for you?   James: Yes that's awesome.   Glenn: Okay, great. So basically I believe that real estate is a delayed mirror of the economy as the economy goes, so goes real estate when the economy is doing well, real estate does well. When the economy turns down, real estate lags by about a year and about a year after the economy starts to turn down, real estate will turn down. You can see that here in this first chart and on the demand side of real estate, there are three key things we look at. The first one is population growth. The US population is growing at nine tenths of 1%. We are 330 million people. So we're actually growing by 3 million people every year in this country; and let's put that into simple real estate terms. That means that we need to build one city, complete city the size of Denver, Colorado, which will actually hit 3 million people this year, to give them a place to eat, sleep, shop, work, play, pray, store things, et cetera.   So here you can see GDP growth, the great recession in oh nine and the beginning of 2010 with negative GDP growth. And then it has rebounded and it's been running at this nice average of right around, just a little over 2%. And the forecast is that that looks like it continues forward with a little bit of a dip here in in late 2020. But to be honest, economists are always wrong. Their numbers never perfectly accurate and there's a fairly high probability that doesn't happen. The reason for that dip is actually the employment growth below, which again, you can see the negative number back in 2009. It starts to recover and go positive in 2010 and has been running about 2%. And then you see the forecast for a slight decline back to down to close to zero in 2021. That's actually a mathematical calculation of the number of baby boomers like me getting to retirement age of 65 versus the number of millennials who are just coming out of school.   The only thing and one of the reasons I believe that that number is wrong is that most baby boomers like me, we enjoy what we do and we're not necessarily retiring or if we do within six months to a year, we're out with another job. It may be a totally different kind of job. I love up here in the mountains of Colorado and a lot of my friends that retired are working as ski school instructors or driving a shuttle bus or my wife is a host and tour guide, Arapaho area ski area. So those people are still working. So that decline in employment growth sort of forecasted decline in GDP growth, my guess is that doesn't happen. And a lot of economists now are saying maybe we're in the lower for longer term. As you probably all know. We just hit 10 years of economic expansion. So we're in the longest economic expansion in modern history and a lot of economists do say, well, it can't go past that, but I don't believe that because right now the country in the world that's had the longest economic expansion is Australia and they're in their 28th year of expansion with no recessions. So I believe that the way that we're set up with this more moderate growth is something that is potentially sustainable as we go along. James: So let me recap that because that's very important point because that's a lot of notion out there that we are too long in expansion cycle, we must come to an end, it's cyclic but what you're saying is the way the employment growth and the way that GDP growth has become moderate right now for the pass many how many years we have, and that's a good thing. So what you're saying is with that moderate growth, we might be able to go longer on expansion cycle. Is that right? Glenn: Right. We're at the beginning of the longest ever. James: Correct. So when you talk about Australia, I mean, I know it's one of the longest expansion cycle and things are getting very expensive there, but is that the same case in Australia? Were they like moderate growth for very long time and that's how they're able to sustain it? Glenn: Yes. James: Okay. Got it. Got it. And what's driving the 0.9% population growth, where is the growth coming from? Glenn: That is new births over deaths plus legal immigration.   James: Okay.   Glenn: And so we're actually growing at a higher rate than that from illegal immigration as well. But there are more people; we're at a very low unemployment rate at this point in time. So anybody that wants a job, basically you can get a job and that's a good thing.   James: Okay. I'm going to ask about inflation and you are showing the chart on inflation, okay let's go to inflation.   Glenn: So on the flip side of the coin is as we look at, and this talk that we're talking about, by the way, we're talking about income producing real estate, not homes, not home ownership. So we're focusing on the income producing side of this as we go along. So the two things that we look at, so we've got good demand as we put up new properties for people to us. On the cost side inflation is running at again about 2% and has been since the great recession when it was actually negative and that is expected to continue. And then we look at interest rates and of course we are at, actually, I'm going to jump ahead here to a different graph, I think. No, I'll wait on that because it's too far ahead.   We're at a very low interest rate. As a matter of fact, the lowest interest rates in 60 years. And then in income producing real estate, commercial real estate you can't go out and get a 30 year mortgage on an office building. The longest you're going to see is 10 years. And so we look at 10 year treasuries, US treasuries as our benchmark. And here you can see that 10 year treasuries and these graphs are actually wrong, they forecast going up to 4%, 10 year treasuries are running a little under 2%. So if you're going to go out and get a commercial loan, you might get in a 10 year treasuries plus a 2% premium. So that would be a, today, 10 year treasuries are running right about one seven, one eight. So you would be getting a 3.8% 10 year loan on your property, which is a very low interest rate. Hence good return to equity on investment after the loan amount.   James: So the chart that you showed is basically a forecast but we are running much lower than the forecast I guess?   Glenn: Yes. Yup. We are.   James: And who came up with the forecast?   Glenn: Every economists forecast what is going to happen. The forecast that we look at many times are the congressional budget office. So that's cbo.gov, if you want to go get their stuff; they do 10 year forecasts on GDP growth, limit growth, interest rates, all kinds of different things. So that's a very good place and it's free to go look at what's happening. And just underneath that they've got a lot of different things. Just click on the economy one and all that information will come up.   James: And why do you think the economists are wrong? Why were they forecasting at 4% [11:41unclear] 1.7?   Glenn: It's a statistical method called reversion to the mean. Interest rates over 60 years have averaged close to 6%. So now that it's low, it has to go back up.   James: Got it, got it.   Glenn: And every single year they did forecasting within two years, 4% and every year for the last 10 years they've been wrong. James: Last 10 years they've been wrong. Is there a chance for them to be continuously being wrong? Glenn: Again there's an old saying for kindness, forecast often. James: Well, the reason I ask is because every year people are forecasting the interest rates are going up or coming down when everybody's wrong all the time.   Glenn: Yes.   James: And it's very important for interested for investors like us, like where we are predictive because we do exit cap rate and we have buying deals, hoping on the cash flow, but also this market appreciation would be a bonus for us, so that's why I asked.   Glenn: So let's actually go right to talk about real estate and my market cycle analysis. So I believe there's really two cycles in real estate. The first one is the physical cycle, which is demand and supply for real estate. So people renting and space available for rent and that drives the occupancy rate which is just the inverse of vacancy. I like using occupancies and you'll see why here and occupancy drives rent growth. So if my occupancies are up, which means there's more demand, I can raise my rents. If we're in a recession and occupancies go down, people aren't renting. Landlords are going to drop their rents. And if I add occupancy and rent together, so if I get an increase in occupancy, in other words, I rent more space and I get an increase in rent, those two together will tell me how much income I'm going to get off my property. That's the physical cycle.   The financial cycle talks about the price of real estate and we're going to do that second and we're going to do it separately. So here's my market cycle analysis and you see that I've got four quadrants, just like the account, just like an economic cycle or recovery and expansion. I have a supply and a recession phase. There are 16 points on the cycle because historically real estate cycles have lasted 16 years and so at the bottom we've got obviously declining vacancy on the way up and increasing vacancy on the way down. We don't build much there in the recovery phase. We build a lot in both the expansion and the hyper supply phase. And then we don't start anything but we complete buildings that have been started in the recession phase. So actually we'll go to this slide. So the study that I've done and published that I get quoted on all the time is the fact that if you know where you are in the cycle, you'll know what kind of rent growth you might expect. So you can see here at the bottom, I don't know if my arrow is showing up here or not, but at the bottom of the cycle points one and two, you've got negative rent growth, so landlords are dropping their rent. So if it was $10 a square foot last year and it's going down 3%, 3% of $10 is 30 cents or it's going to go down to $9.70 a square foot to rent. As we start to come up through the cycle and occupancies increase you can see rent growing and at positions six, at the long-term average there, 0.6 is on the long-term average dotted line; you can see that rent growth was 4% and during this historic cycle time, inflation was running 4% then. So when you get to long-term average, you get basically the rate of inflation.   Then in the green shaded area here, which is the expansion phase, you can see rents really rising quickly to a peak and a high of 12.5% in position 10. Then when we hit the peak of the cycle, which is the highest level of occupancy after that, rent still grows positively, but it starts to decelerate or slow down, back to around inflation at 0.14 and then low and negative again at the bottom. And then one of the things to notice here is that 0.8 on the cycle is green and because that is the cost feasible rent level. By that I mean that if it costs $400 a square foot to build a new office building here in Denver and investors are looking for a 10% rate of return on that $400 investment, 10% of 400 is $40 a square foot. So rents in the market have to hit 40 before we can cost justify building the new building. Makes sense?   James: Got it. Makes sense. Makes sense.   Glenn: Okay. So every quarter I look at the major property types, look at that demand and supply, look at the occupancy levels and as you can see today five major property types office downtown or suburban office is at 0.6, downtown offices at 0.8, retail, which will surprise everybody at 0.9, industrial at 0.10 and retail industrial warehouse up at peak occupancy rates. And the only property type that's over the top into hyper supply is apartment. An apartment is there not because of a decline in demand, we've got all these millennials coming out of school and so every year demand is going up for apartments, but we're just overbuilding it a little bit. So for my company and for other investors, what I do is I analyse the 54 largest cities in the United States and where they are in their cycle. And as you can see here they're kind of spread up because demand and supply is very local in nature. Notice what's happening in New York office, which is driven by the financial sector and the stock market is going to be different from what's happening in Boston or Chicago or in New York or any other city. So you can look at the companies that are there, the industry that's driving the growth and what you see here is national average at 0.8. But some markets moving up the cycle and some markets over the top. And I'll give a quick example here. We've got two markets that are in the hyper supply phase, Austin and Houston, both in Texas   James: [18:19unclear]   Glenn: The Austin market is driven by technology companies. A lot of tech companies like being there because they can hire young people that want to live in Austin, It's a cool city. Actually [18:31unclear]   James: I'm in Austin. It is very cool to live here.   Glenn: And so, what's happening there is since that's been going on for a few years, the developers are putting up just a little bit more space than you need. So the occupancy rate is starting to come down just a little bit because there's too much space there. So that's a situation of too much supply. Houston is exactly the opposite. It's a place of declining demand because the oil industry is driving Houston and with low gas prices, the amount of exploration and other things going on has dropped off and they've laid people off. So that's a position of declining demand. So since you're in Austin, let's watch Austin as we look at this. So that's where office is, here's where industrial is. So warehouse space, again, Austin is just one point over the top. A lot of markets are at their peak, demand for an industrial warehouse space has been very strong because of Amazon and people buying things online.   So we've got a huge demand growth on the industrial side and there are some cities again where it's easy to build. So we're overbuilding just a little bit. Now we look at the apartment market and Austin is at the top at the peak point at 11 because you aren't putting up apartments fast enough for all these millennials moving in. But you look at, there's a lot of other markets where they are putting up a little bit too much space. In other words, we're oversupplying almost half the market. So the national average is just a little over the top. Every time I talk to developers I'd say if you just back off on building apartments by about 10% of what's being built, you'll come right back into balance and be back at peak equilibrium point 11. When we look at retail, you can see that the majority of the cities are at peak and Austin is there as well. This is the one surprising thing because everybody hears about retailers going out of business and we’ll talk about that a little bit more in just a second. And then finally hotels here you can see that hotels, the majority are in the expansion phase with some over the top. And again, Austin, you're oversupplying by just a little bit. So what I want to do now is jump to and looks at the historic cycles. As you said, you haven't been through a full cycle yet. Well here we're going to go back to 1982 and that's a point in time at which I was building. And you can see that occupancies in office were very high. They came down and bottomed out in the early 1990's with a small recession and we'd actually over oversupplied a lot. They peaked in 2000 with the technology boom, they bottomed in 2002 and three, with the technology bubble bursting; came up to a lower peak in 2006 and seven as the economy was doing well, bottomed out in the great recession in 2010. And today has come back and are reaching a kind of a lower level equilibrium occupancy level than we've seen in previous times. But it looks like it's going to last for at least another two or three years. So the other line that you see here is the rent growth line. And you can see that those two are very highly correlated. As a matter of fact, they're correlated by almost 80%. So if occupancies are going up, rents are going up, if occupancies are going to go down, rents are going to go down. Pretty simple and straightforward to look at. So let's look at my forecast and here's the forecast and it looks very much like the monitor. And you can see that markets are again, majority in the expansion place. Austin, as you can see there is in the hyper supply phase at position 13. And again, that's because I'm forecasting that you've got a lot of new properties coming online, so your occupancy levels are actually going to fall a little bit in the coming year. If we look at industrial, you see basically the exact same cycle of occupancies and rent growth and we've got this really nice equilibrium that happened back in the mid-nineties and another one that's happening today. Rent growth has been really high in industrial because of the, I call it the Amazon effect up at 7% more than double the rate of inflation and we expect that to kind of work its way back down over the next few years back to kind of a more normal by 2017 we expect to see kind of inflation type things there.   So again, half the markets at peak or equilibrium, the other half building just a little bit too much, but that's the way it is and Austin, again, just one point over the top. Oh, one other thing is you notice I've got some numbers after each city and those numbers tell you if the city is moved from the previous quarter, for instance below Austin there you've got Cincinnati at a plus one. So Cincinnati was at peak number 11, and its occupancy occupancies dropped enough for me to move it forward to position 12. So it's rent growth is going to be decent James: And the bolded city are the biggest cities? Glenn: Right. Okay. Yeah. So the bolded cities make up, one of the things I found was there are big concentrations. So in each of the different property types there is anywhere between 11 and 14 cities that make up 50% of all the square footage in all 54 of these markets. So what city is bolded may not be the same in each case. So like Riverside is here in the industrial, but it's not in any of the others. Las Vegas will be in hotels, but it's not a big city for office or any of the other property types. When we look at apartments, you can see that we actually hit a peak in occupancy back in where am I?   James: 2019.   Glenn: Yeah. We had a peak back in 2014. It looks like we had another peak here in 2019, but because of the overbuild; we slowed things down a little bit. But going forward, we just have a lot of it in the pipeline and so we're going to overbuild it looks like for next three or four years and hence rent growth, which was as high as 5% back in 2015 has dropped off. And in 2019, I think it's going to run about two and a half percent. James: But looking at that chart, you're predicting 2019 after 2019, rent growth is going to slow down because of the oversupply stage?   Glenn: Yes. Yup.   James: Got it.   Glenn: Exactly.   James: And does it matter on which class apartment is it? Which location? Which city? Tertiary, primary market? Glenn: Oh, well. So here are the cities for apartments. And you can see Austin I think is still at its peak. You're not putting up quite enough. Most of the other cities are in that hyper supply phase. Where they're putting up a little too much. And so they're occupancy levels are dropping. Denver had a number of years of 8% rent growth. And because we're over building and you can see Denver way over, further down the cycle there at a position 13, our rent growth now is only running about 3%. James: Yeah. So for example, like the city on the hyper supply, I mean going to the recession on the point 14. So what you're looking at is you're looking at the supply that's coming into that city and looking at the demand for that city and that's where you're determining the point 14 for that particular city. Glenn: That's right. Yup. Because when I combined supply and demand, I can then forecast the occupancy level. Okay.   James: Got it.   Glenn: So there were no cities of Memphis, Miami, Orlando, and San Jose. I don't expect them to get anything more than inflation, which is we're right about two percent. James: Oh, you mean rent group, right about 2%.   Glenn: Right. So their rent growth is only going to match inflation.   James: So at point 14 is supposed to be deaccelerating rent growth and recession. It should be like almost negative rent growth. Glenn: 12, 13 and 14 are decelerating rent growth. And point 14 is when rent growth should only be running at the rate of inflation, which if you remember back to your economics class, we have nominal inflation and real inflation or nominal growth and real growth. All that is, is nominal growth if the price of something goes up, that's inflation. So if we have 2% inflation, if you've got like GDP growing at 3%, that's nominal GDP growth. So 3% nominal GDP growth, subtract inflation of 2% and real GDP growth is 1%. James: Got it. So what about at point 11, the cities who are estimated to be at the final phase of expansion, still in expansion where; what is the percentage of expectation of rent growth for that kind of cities? Glenn: Well it will vary by city, but it's probably going to be, well, let's back up one slide there. And when you're at peak occupancy, you've seen historic rent gross as much as here's four and a half, here's almost 5%. This little peak here is that 3%. Okay. So again, and I do this model that you see here individually for each city. James:  Okay. How do we get access to that data to get a rent growth prediction for each city? Glenn: So, well that's what researchers do is we model and project things and I get my historic data from CoStar, the company that does all the major property types and I get supply information, demand information, occupancy levels, rent growth. So I can model every city. James: But your model of forecast is not available for public consumption, that's mainly for your research, I guess? Glenn: This is my forecast report that you're looking at here. And my regular market cycle report I give away free. It's actually on our website at the University of Denver. So if you go to du.edu/burns school, I'm in the Franklin Burns School of Real Estate, scroll of the bottom of the page and you'll see my market cycle forecast so you can get those for free. We sell a subscription to my forecast report that comes out four times a year. It's only a thousand dollars and that money goes into a fund to support research on real estate and sustainability. James: Got it, got it. So my question is on a specific city, for example, I'm buying a deal in Memphis and I'm trying to do a five year projection on my performer to show it my investors and raise money for you. So usually a lot of people use a 3% or 2% rent growth for next five years. But what you're saying is that's not correct, right? Because that's not how it's being forecast.   Glenn: They need to take a look at the city where it is in its cycle and it might be doing better and might be doing worse than that.   James: So how do we get that number rather than saying three or 2% blindly, is there a place where we can go and say it's 3% the next one year but after that it is going to be 1% for year 2 or second year or third year?   Glenn: Yep. So CoStar, you can subscribe to CoStar.   James: Okay.   Glenn: They do projections on all this stuff. City by city property type by property type.   James: Okay. CoStar for projections. Got it. Got it.       Glenn: Okay. Also Jones Lang LaSalle has their own research and forecasting group, so you can go there as well. For your individual investors who probably aren't doing enough to spend that kind of money on research. Most of them are probably working with a broker when they're looking to purchase properties operate the properties, lease the properties, et cetera. When they're talking to a broker, they should ask, do you have CoStar access for your city and your property type. And the broker is allowed to share that information and those forecasts with them. James: Got it, got it. And what about the cap rate? I mean, when we talk about rent growth, deaccelerating it's also meaning cap rate being expanding, right? So is there a place... Glenn: Okay, so we're almost there. Let me just finish this and then we'll jump right over to the financial cycle. Okay, here's retail; and the key thing here is that you can see that we are at the highest level of occupancy ever in retail. People go that doesn't make sense, got all these companies going out of business and everything else. So series is going out of business. What am I students family owns a mall in Macon, Georgia and series goes out of business. They open up the center of roof of the building on one side they put an experience retail, two restaurants, a movie theater and an escape room. On the other side, they're building four stories of apartments on top of the space. So they're actually going to have higher occupancy and rent going forward. We're replacing these department stores with experience retail and remember supply; we're not building a lot of new retail, number one, but we're also repurposing a lot of retail.   So many times a retail center that's not working, convert it to office space or today Amazon is trying to get that last mile delivery to you on the same day, convert that into closed in warehouse space where you can deliver it to someone the same day. So retail is doing well because it's got a low level of demand growth, it does have some. But it has an even lower level of supply growth, hence the high occupancy rate. But you can see that the rent growth is really pretty low too. It's only one and 2% going forward. James: So retail is more of a play off, people have given up on retail and there's not many people building but it's still a demand there that's why the occupancy is much higher. Glenn: Right, right. So again, most of the markets at the peak and then hotels, we are again at the highest occupancy rate we've ever seen. That's because millennials like experiences versus things. So they're doing a lot more travel. And we're in the process because hotels are extremely profitable at that high occupancy rate. We're seeing a lot more new hotels being built. So a lot of markets kind of heading over the top and Austin being one of those, where you're actually putting up a lot of new hotels. So when you think about it, the one property type that's the best in Austin is actually apartments at this point; highest occupancy, highest rent growth. So that's the income side of real estate. All we talked about is occupancies and rent growth. How much income can I get?   James: Yes.   Glenn: Now let's talk about the financial cycle and its capital flows that drive the prices and we look at that as cap rates. So the blue lines is the real estate cycle, the black lines, the capital flow cycle, and it should work as when things aren't very good, not much capital. The line's flat there at the bottom. As things get better, capital goes up. The highest rate of growth is when we go through that 0.8 now yellow where we reach cost feasible rents; capital flow peaks out in the hyper supply phase and then drops off very quickly. Now remember that we've got two types of capital flowing in the real estate. The green shaded area up here is capital flows to existing property. So if you buy a property from me for a higher price than I paid that's more capital flow. The other capital flow at the bottom is capital flows to new construction, adding more buildings in, so producing more properties.  Real estate, I consider it a separate asset class. So we've got stocks, equities, bonds, and commercial income producing real estate. It's about 20% of the marketplace. So for me, as I talk to and have worked with for 25 years, institutional investors, they should have a separate allocation to real estate. You should have a separate allocation to real estate in your retirement account. If you could only do public equities buy rates. Directly you can buy into funds or you can actually own properties yourself. But remember, when you buy a property, you just bought a business. You've got to operate it, you got to rent it, you got to take care of it, you got to maintain it, pay the taxes, you're operating a business. So when we look back over history, here's the history of ten year treasuries, you can see it going from 2% back in the 50's to 15% in 1982 to today, back to 2% with the forecast that it's going to go up but of course for the last 10 years, that's exactly what that forecast has looked like and it's always been wrong.   We've been running in the 2% range since the year 2010. So notice the total return between 1981 and 2017 is 8.4%. That's because as interest rates go down, bond values go up, your bonds appreciate. But if you think bonds are a good place to be today, go to the left hand side and when you go from two to the long-term average of five, eight, the total return has only one nine because if you bought a bond at a 2% interest rate, $1,000 bond at 2% and interest rates go to four and you want to sell that bond, the new buyer is going to want a 4% yield. So they're going to give you $500 instead of a thousand for that bond. So you're going to lose money on your bonds. So that's why today bonds kind of don't make any sense. Real estate versus stocks and bonds. It's only had five years of negative returns versus over 20 for both stocks and bonds, and it is capital flowing. That money coming in that makes a difference. So here's a company, real capital analytics that collects data on every commercial real estate transaction in the US over two point $5 million. The bars go up, the bars go down and their price index, which is along the top there, you can see follows that pretty closely. So as more people buy, prices go up. When people back off, like during the great recession of oh nine prices come down.   James: Is that the international money coming in or is that local money coming in or it's just [37:20unclear] you're easing   Glenn: I will be answering that question in two slides. When we look at the cap rate, which is the simple way to describe that, it's like a bond yield or cash on cash return. Back in 2001 cap rates were around eight to 9% and then as prices went up, cap rates dropped to a low in 2007 of around six to 7%. Great recession happened, property prices drop, cap rates go back up, so you're getting a better cash yield when you buy. Since then cap rates have been coming down and they're down at a low of mainly in the six and a half to 7% range except for apartments which are at five and a half. Now of course hotels are higher because they're riskier at eight and everyone says, well, so interest rates have to go up, therefore cap rates have to go up. Not true. All the historic studies done, and I've done some myself show that the correlation between interest rates and cap rates is no more than about 20% that's not what drives it. It's capital flow.   As a matter of fact just came from a conference where two different real estate economists say we expect cap rates to go even lower next year because there's so much money out there around the world trying to find yield, trying to find income and bonds don't have it. Today the US stock market [38:51unclear] 500 dividend yield is 1.2%. The 10 year treasury, which is risk-free, is 1.7%; corporate bonds are running around three to three and a half and you can buy into properties earning six. So that's quite different isn't it?   James: So what you're saying is the capital is going to continue, I mean your prediction is the climate is going to continue to go down in apartments and any, is it within all asset classes...?   Glenn: Cap rates are most likely going to be staying about where they are or coming in and it depends upon the property or coming down just a little bit. They probably won't go down in retail because people don't believe that retail's coming back yet. So one way to look at this as take the risk free rate of the 10 year treasury, ask how much additional yield income am I going to get over that risk free rate of the 10 year treasury. So that's the spread above the 10 year treasury. Here you can see that the spread was 375 back in 2001 it dropped down to only 150 basis points in 2007 but today you're getting somewhere between 275 and 600 points over the 10 year treasury for taking that additional risk of investing in real estate. So from that standpoint, real estate looks like a very strong buy as an investment and because of that, what we see is real capital analytics collects data from all over the world and this shows money going from one country to another. So at the top you see the United States in 2018, we don't have the 2019 yet numbers yet, sorry; into Spain, put $11 billion into Spain, that was 15% higher than the previous year. Because they believe the Spanish economy has finally figured itself out and is going well. The next one was France coming into the United States with money. $8.8 billion of French investors buying us real estate. The next one, the United States going in the UK, a $7.9 billion, that's a 20% decrease. Why do you think it went down?   James: Because of the Brexit?   Glenn: Yes, everybody has...   James: [41:03unclear]   Glenn: When Brexit happens, the economy in England will go down and hence if the economy slows, occupancy rates will go down and rent rates will drop. So you can see that money moves around the world and the most expensive property in the United States today, would be a class A office building in downtown New York City. It will go for a 3.8% cap rate. In London, the same size class A office building will go for a 2% cap rate.   James: Got it.   James: In Tokyo or Singapore, a class A office building will go for a 1% cap rate. So an English investor looks at the US and says, Hey, I can buy a top quality property for half price and an Asian investor goes, wow, I can buy a property in the US for a quarter of the cost in Asia. So we are the largest economy in the world. We're the safest economy. We have good laws that protect investors. In China you could invest there, but the government, since it's communists, could next year decide that oh, we own everything anyway, we're taking it away from you. So capital is flowing in the United States and I believe that keeps prices high and cap rates low. James: What about this trade war with China? I mean, I know it's a bit cooling down, but it's cooling down and heating up; so how is that going to be impacting the money flow to the US? Glenn: Well we've already hit the first level of agreement on it and it certainly did not hurt our economy in any major way. If you look here down at number seven, China and the United States $8.375 billion up 8% back in 2018 when it was first in process and our president was threatening. Chinese investing in the United States went up not down. Why? Because Chinese investors are trying to get their money out of their country where they thought it might slow down and move it into our country or where it was safer.   James: Correct.   Glenn: Okay. James: So this is a very awesome slide because it shows where all the money flows in the world and you can clearly see that a lot of money coming to the US which is important for capital flow too or real estate prices. Glenn: Right. So here's a slide from NAREIT, the national association of real estate investment trusts; you can find this on their website and they're showing historic cycles at being 17 years long. So the first cycle there from 1972, which is when they start having data through 1989, the green line, the total average return per year for publicly traded rates was 13.9%. The next cycle, 1989 through 2007, just before our great recession total return was over 14% a year. And here we are kind of halfway through the next cycle. 10 years in and so far the average return has been 3.9, but that's because of that big drop during the great recession and you had to recover the money that you lost. So I believe we're kind of mid cycle and a fair amount of expansion to go. James: So we are not going to die of old age I guess. Not because of the cycle is too long and we are due for a correction. Glenn: Correct. So that's my story and I'm sticking to it. If you want, we can do a quick summary or any other questions you have? James: I have a few questions. So in terms of development, so in this market cycle, let's say for example in apartments, if you look at the apartment, the market cycle that we put in, we are in hyper supply. I mean, of course you say we have like 10% additional supply it's not because there's no demand, but is this the right time to do development? Because I saw somewhere in your studies that the best time to start your development is 75% on the expansion cycle. If I'm not mistaken. Glenn: Right. I would love to be developing at points six seven eight on the cycle James: That's 0.6 or 67% of the whole cycle on the upward trend before it reached the equivalent, right? Glenn: Well, I know, let's go back to my cycle graph and we want to be, let's go to the apartment one as a matter of fact. So I would like to be developing points 6, 7, 8 and maybe 9 in the cycle. What's happening is a lot of people are over here putting up new properties at 12, 13, and 14. James: So right now, I mean, your chart shows the apartments at the 13, which means it's not the best time to really do development ideas.   Glenn: Correct.   James: And what about people, I mean, some of the investors who are doing like bridge loans or long-term loans. I mean there's pro and con in both, but what would you recommend in this market cycle? Glenn: Well, when you say a long-term note, you mean give me a mortgage on a property? James: Yeah. Getting a mortgage with agency debt or fixed rate long-term versus a bridge loan, which is a short term financing. Glenn: So bridge loans are basically taking the risks that properties being developed or redeveloped and that it will be successful upon completion. Whereas a long-term mortgage you get the first money, so the rents that come in and have to be high enough to pay your mortgage payment and if there's nothing leftover, then the equity investors aren't making any return in those years. So again you can buy an apartment and it most likely is going to cash-flow but it's a full time job to manage a big property, make sure it's done right, and finance it properly and everything else. That's why pretty much every university in the country today has a real estate program. We are actually at university of Denver, the second oldest real estate program in the country started in 1938. Where you are both an undergraduate or graduate and an executive online program so you can be at home and get your master's degree in real estate from us. James: Got it. Got it. Right. Wow really, I should probably look at that. But the other question I have, especially on this chart, why is it not symmetrical? I mean, I know during the recovery and expansion, it's just a longer cycle and update like a slight down. Glenn: Great question; and that's because historically we've had 11 years of up cycle and only three or four years of a down cycle. As a matter of fact, I'll go back to the, one of the slides that I bounced past earlier on, and that is this here you can see previous economic cycles, they last anywhere from 5 to 10 years historically and recessions are normally one to two years long. The great recession at two and a half years was the longest recession that we've seen since the great depression in the 1920s. James: Got it. Got it. And what about the the industrial office and other property types what do you think would try for in the next, I mean other than apartments, among all these property types, what would be the best property type to invest for the next five years? I would say from your perspective. Glenn: Here's the chart. Office has got the longest run in the expansion cycle followed by retail. Power centers doesn't mean that stuff can't sit at the top for a long time too. So if it keeps going, I believe we've got a good five year run of demand for industrial space going forward. James: Got it. By is office being driven by some factor. I mean, technology, right? I mean, a lot of technology people work from home too, right? So I'm not sure where that drive is coming from for office. Glenn: Basically more and more of the jobs in the United States are office using jobs and people start going crazy sitting at home and we're social animals. And so being together with other people and that social interaction actually benefits the work for every company, that's why we work. When you start a company, instead of working on your garage, you can now go and rent some, we work space on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. They charge you plenty for it, but now you've got a space to be in, all the amenities that are necessary there. There's a receptionist, there's copy machines, there's all the different things that you need to be successful; collaboration, conference rooms, all those kinds of things. So most new companies start out by going to you short term office rental space. Last year that was 10% of the demand in office. James: Got it. And what about the Amazon effect? Is that just on the industrial? Because I read somewhere that they own like 25% of the...   Glenn: Last year Amazon rented 25% of all warehouse space, new warehouse space rented in the United States. That's how much they're growing. They opened a 1 million square foot warehouse North of Denver and hired 1500 people.   James: Wow. What about this boom in marijuana and all that happening on some of the coastal cities is that impacting any of these property types? Glenn: The, I'm sorry, the? James: Like, they have this marijuana, right? Like you know like medical marijuana and...? Glenn: So yeah. Well Colorado was one of the first and it created a huge demand for warehouse space here in Denver and drove our rents from $3 to $6 over a two year period. I can see if you went to basically 100% all the old crappy warehouse got rented up to grow marijuana. And since we're one of the first States where marijuana tourism became very big. Now that other States are picking it up, less people are coming and we've had a couple of marijuana companies go out of business and so all of a sudden, and we built a lot of new space for them and so now we're in the hyper supply phase because that economic base industry in Denver is shrinking. James: Got it, got it. What would you advise an investor, let's say for example an apartment investor who are more in the hyper supply stage right now, what would you advise that person to be cautious of as we move forward for the next five years? If keep what? Keep on buying or do you want to be more defensive? Glenn: Well, if you believe that there is a recession coming, then what you want to do is have what we call defensive assets. You want to be in the best markets, the highest, the bigger markets like the ones that I show and the ones that I have in bold and italics. You want to be in higher quality properties that can attract and retain tenets and you want to try and get the longest term leases you can get to bridge you through the next down cycle. James: Got it, got it. And what about tertiary market? Is it a good idea to go into tertiary market looking for yield? Because I know some of the tertiary market is [52:52unclear]? Glenn: Yes, but you have to be careful and very selective. You need to look at what is the economic base industry that's driving the growth in that market. So for instance, an economic base industry produces a good or service it exports outside of the local market that brings money in. So in Detroit, Michigan for decades it was auto, the auto industry did well, so did Detroit. When the auto industry turned down and we got a lot more foreign competition, Detroit became pretty much a ghost town. Now you've got a billionaire, a tech giant who came in and started buying up a bunch of office space in Detroit to run his company out of at next to nothing and hire people in saying, come here and live in oh, by the way, you can go buy an existing house here in Detroit for like 10 or $20,000. So instead of spending 3000 or $4,000 in San Francisco and rent, you can have a mortgage that's only a couple hundred bucks a month. So Detroit is starting to turn around because of the new economic base industry. This tech company creating demand for office and when you create demand for employment, then people buy things. So retail goes up and the demand for rental goes up, it just, it moves everything up and plenty of growth is the number one key thing to look at for demand for real estate. James: Got it. Got it. What about some of the government controls like rent control and some of the cities, some of the States that's happening right now, how is that going to be impacting the cap rate and the rent growth? Glenn Right. so rent control is the government interfering with the free market and it has shown that when that happens it severely restricts supply because no one wants to build if they're going to end up with rent control on their property where they can't raise rents to at least meet inflation. And so every place where that kind of stuff is coming into play, investors aren't buying and property prices are going flat. In the long-term they will hurt the market. It will create exactly the opposite. They're saying, oh, we're trying to make apartments more affordable for people. Well, it does just the opposite. People that are there end up with a lower rent and then they sit on it even when they now have a good job. And I'll give you an example. I have a good friend who owns an apartment building in San Francisco. He has four of his 20 units are rent controlled. One of the people in it was a guy that when he got in, he was in school. Now he is a very wealthy person and he continues since he had it, it can't be released. His rent is less than 25% of what market would be on his property. And he's there maybe one or two nights a month. And my friend keeps asking, why do you rent this for the month when you're only here two nights? He goes, because it's cheaper than a hotel. So it's bad government policy in my personal opinion. James: Yeah. It's crazy [56:25unclear] like, so does that mean some of the cities which doesn't have rent control will have a lot more price run up because a lot of people want to be investing in like for example, in Texas or maybe Florida, which doesn't have a lot of space doesn't have rent control. Would that mean that a lot of people from the East coast or West coast will be investing more on these states? Glenn: Potentially, yes. James: Okay. Okay. So I think I covered most of the questions that was asked in the Facebook group. If audience and listeners, you guys want to join this multifamily investors group in Facebook and we have almost 4,000 people there and now we are recording this as a podcast and a webinar, so you should be able to get the webinar as well as you register. So Dr. Glennn how do people get hold of you and get in touch with you? I believe you mentioned it halfway through, but... Glenn: Right. Yup. So they can go to the university of Denver website, which is du.edu/burnsshool, and a scroll to the bottom and they'll be able to see my cycle reports there. And there I've got my profile and all the other information there. That's the easiest way to do it. James: Awesome. Thank you very much for coming into the show and doing the webinar as well. Thank you very much. Glenn: Okay, thank you. Have a blessed day.   James: Have a good day. Glenn: Bye.

James: Hi, audience and listeners. This is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth at Real Estate Investing podcasts. Last week, we had Jake and Gino from Wheelbarrow Profits. You know, Jake and Gino have tons and tons of deals on their own and you know, recently have moved into syndication space as well. And their story is just very interesting in terms of knowing how did they get started, how did they refinance their first deal to launch their multifamily investing career.   Today I have Rich Fishman from Dallas, and Rich has almost 8,000 units right now across 23 complexes and he has been buying in Texas, Tennessee, Indiana, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Mississippi, and South Carolina. So Rich is going to be giving us a lot of valuable insights into how he had bought so many apartment units. And imagine half of that 8,000 units is fundamentally owned by Rich itself and the other half of it is more of a partnership and syndication. Hey Rich, welcome to the show.   Rich: Well, thank you, James. Glad to be here.   James: Good, good. So, Rich, it's going to be a very interesting podcast because, and I'm going to be learning so much from you and I'm sure my listeners is going to be learning so much from you. How did you get started? I mean, you have like 8,000 units right now. You started almost 20 years ago. So walk back, how did you get started in multifamily immediately when you get started in real estate?   Rich: Well, actually, I was the owner of a mortgage company in the San Francisco Bay area in Berkeley, California and I financed mostly half homes, but I also financed apartment complexes. And I had a deal to finance, it was a six-plex in Alameda, California, and it was a foreclosure. Back then, there were a lot of foreclosures and the realtor gave me the deal, I got the loan, and then the buyer fell out of escrow; they didn't like the deal. And then there was another buyer; same thing happens. And I said to the realtor, I said, “What's wrong with this deal? It looks like it makes money.”  And she says “Nothing's wrong with the deal.”  And I said, “Well, I don't know how to manage anything like this.”  She says, “Well, I know management company, don't worry about it.” So I went to the property, then I dragged my wife there.   And it's a funny story because my wife is from Scandinavia and they don't do very well there. And so we went to the property and we had one of those, you know those long screwdrivers that the termite guys have because we are poking around, seeing if it was well-built. And the screwdriver went right through the wood into the drywall. And my wife says, "No, I can't buy this with you.”  I said, "No, we're buying this.”  And she looked at me and she said, “Okay.”  And so we bought this six-plex. And the six-plex was the beginning of us starting to buy real estate in earnest. So that's the story is we cut aside. There was a sidebar from the mortgage business.   James: Got it, got it, yeah. I always wonder, like whenever I meet brokers, mortgage brokers, and even brokers, I always ask them, why not you guys buy these deals, right? Why are you just doing transaction? And a lot of times, I mean not a lot of times I think once I talk to someone who went from a mortgage broker to become an investor. I'm sure you know him; it's like Michael Becker, right? Yeah. I think he's a big buyer in Dallas. I asked him this question because he used to be working in Wells Fargo and he told me not everybody likes to take risks like a business owner.   Rich: It's not only about the risk. The main reason that people get into the investment side is because, when you're doing transactions as a broker, you're making income and you're only as good as your last deal. You have to keep churning and closing deals to make a living, and every broker is off to the next listing, or the mortgage person is off the next loan and you'd live and die by the transaction. So eventually, most people either say, I've got to own this stuff; build wealth rather than income. Or I'm not interested; I really don't want to own anything. It takes the risk and the responsibility of owning property. So that's the thing, I had to make a decision to own it, take care of it, use my free time because I was still a mortgage broker. I had to use my weekends to run the real estate with my wife. We want to get started because we couldn't just go into multifamily; we needed the income from the mortgages. So it takes a lot of sacrifice for the first couple of years to get into something like this.   James: Got it, got it. So you must know the industry; working as well in the mortgage and to really successfully become owner and take advantage of that knowledge as well. So after how many years or after how many unit count that you, you said, okay, I'm going to give up this mortgage business, I'm going to be just a fulltime, a real estate investor?   Rich: I think we hit about a thousand apartments. And at that point, I let go of my duties in the mortgage company and concentrated on just buying and selling apartments.   James: Got it, got it. So, 20 years ago you started buying the six-plex, when did you see your fastest acceleration of purchase or acquisitions?   Rich: Well, we hit about 4,000 units and then the recession came 2009 to 14, 12, 13 as on the area of the country, and that was really hard. So we didn't really grow during that period. We were selling off as fast as we were buying, just kind of trying to keep our head above water. We got to about 5,000 units, about two or three years ago, and then we've grown a lot more. I could probably have 50,000 apartments today if I wanted them. I would have to basically align myself with someone on Wall Street or some investment banking for like a Goldman Sachs or something like that. And they would be happy to raise the money and give me all that money and I could then own five or 10% or 15% or whatever it is that is bought, BUT I'm not that going to ho for that strategy.   So the growth at this point is really about organic growth for me and our company, and also quality of life because when you have institutional mining, you have to take care of it in a way that suits the institutions. And they have requirements that family and friends and other people don't have. For example, they might want audited books every year. That doesn't sound like a lot because we don't; we have books [inaudible 08:46] and everything, but that just takes a lot of time to get an audit done. And if you multiply that by 15 or 20 EO, now you have to have a whole audit department, and CPAs work who for you and things like that. So it's been really about opportunity and raising money mostly from either my own, resources or family and friends and other methods.   James: Got it, got it. So, Rich, I think you bring a really good perspective in terms of economic cycle because you have went through, I mean, you started 20 years ago, you went through that 2008 and everybody said 2008 multi-family, you know, fat better than any other asset classes, they are very, very low. What you call, you know, who went into a receivership or bankruptcy; multifamily, so is that true?   Rich: That's not true at all. Most of the people who are in multifamily today, we're not even involved in the business.   James: Exactly, that's what I'm asking because everyone is sort of newbies--   Rich: A lot of people were wiped out in that recession and a lot of other people were underwater. I mean, there were thousands of apartment complexes that were foreclosed on. Now was it as bad as office buildings or retail? Maybe not, I really don't know, but it was bad. Now they say anybody who lasted eight years, they could come out the other side feeling good. But most people don't have the capital to take five or six or seven years of losses, and large losses. If you're not making debt coverage, if you're not able to pay your loan and you're coming out of pocket, that might be okay for one deal. But if you have 20 deals like that, yeah, that's a whole different story. So it's quite a different thing than when people say. Now, the multifamily was hitting extremely hard, and I think the default ratio was up to about 8%.   James: 8%. Okay.   Rich: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. That doesn't sound that bad compared to student loans. But if you think about it 8% is, you know, you're talking about housing that touches the lives of millions of people.   James: Got it. Yeah. It's very interesting data because you are giving me true data. I mean, sometimes we read in the news and they say low delinquency rate and it was not a hard hit and we don't have real, true story. Right, because a lot of it depends on the sub-marker, depends on which class we are talking about, and you know, depends on the operator as well. So how did you survive the 2008 crash?   Rich: Well, I have some properties that cash barge really well and I had others that really couldn't survive and I got rid of them. I sold them off or actually, I had you cut my portfolio down in order to survive and retrench a little bit, but I only had a few deals that were like that, the rest, I didn't have the leverage. If you were totally leveraged up in a bad market, then you cannot save yourself because, and if you're a partnership, you can't save yourself either. Because, if you own 10 or 20% of the deal and the loan is negative, then you would actually have to make a capital call every month on your partners in order to make those payments, and if you raise money. You know that there are two words that should never be spoken ‘capital costs’.   James: Exactly.   Rich: And so it's hard to really get money out of people to feed something that's losing money. So, there are a lot of people who gave; I know one fellow in the Houston market, he had property all over Houston, Atlanta, I think he gave up about 40 yields back. And there were other people like that who had just a tremendous amount of deals that they gave back to the banks.   James: So was this deal when they give back did Fannie and Freddie was giving non-recourse loan at that time?   Rich: Yeah, non-recourse loans, they just won't; if you give them deals back, they don't want to lend to you again unless you pay a heavy penalty to offset their losses because they take losses, themselves or the service or takes the loss. And in Fannie Mae's case, the loan originator slash servicer usually takes about five to 10% of the risk of the loan. So, you know, that could be pretty substantial too, to them because they're usually own companies by either large wealthy individuals or by banks. They don't like taking losses at all.   James: Got it, so they--   Rich: Hopefully we won't be there again.   James: Yeah, absolutely, we didn't want to be there again. So it was non-recourse and the owners were able to just give up their property, they lose their equity and the service that takes some loss and they gave it back to Fannie Mae and that's it.   Rich: Fanny Mae never own; one of the problems with the way the system was set up, is that Fannie may never really own the loan. People don't realize this, but Fannie Mae is just a broker.   James: Really? Okay.   Rich: There's really like nobody, you know, there's not like someone in Mumbai who owns or in Shanghai who owns all these loans. I mean, they basically securitize the loans and they sell the loan as a bond in the world financial markets. And so there's a special servicer who represents the interests of the bondholders and that person is delegated decision making, but they're not able to cut deals on Fannie Mae loan. So, they don't generally go and say, we see that you're negative, and why don't we go from 5% to 3% and you can owe us the money later? Things like that; they're not flexible. So, actually, Freddie Mac is, is more flexible, they act more like a bank, and so they can do workouts in a much better way than Fannie Mae can. It's just one of the things people don't know.   James: Got it. Wow, that's interesting. That's a lot of information out there. Yeah, I mean, Fannie Mae does a, securitize the loan and they sell it to the investor who buys it as a bond and they get certain percentage out of it. And in the middle there's servicer, there's Fannie Mae, everybody makes a few percent like this one [inaudible 15:59].   Rich: Everybody is making money, and at the end, the only people who generally lose money are the bondholders.   James: Okay, are the bondholders. But if the deal is given back, I mean the equity holder, whoever, the owner also lose the money as well, right? So there are two people, the buyer, and the seller, right?   Rich: The borrower absolutely loses a whole lot of their entire investment. And then the lender, if the lender can't be made whole by the sale of the real estate, they may lose money too. Things can get pretty bad in that cycle, that the value of the property often sunk below the outstanding balance of the loan. There're a lot of negative things to talk about, but let's talk about more positive things.   James: Got it. So you talked about people who are highly leveraged, right? So let's say you're buying a deal at 75% leverage. Do you think that's high level, I mean, can you define highly leverage? What is the highest leverage that you think?   Rich: Well, in today's world, you can leverage up to, Oh, even 90% for the first and second or preferred equity. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just that you don't want to leverage that high on a stabilized property. It's one thing if you buy a property that's a value add and that you're going to add value and renovate a property, increased rents, increased value, and you're looking on a stabilized basis that okay, you went high leverage, but within a year or two you're going to be catching up and the leverage point will be at 60%, 65 or 75% or something. But if you're basically highly leveraged in stabilized properties without any value add then. If the rents go down five or 10%, then you're underwater, you want to have some protection; you want to certainly have 20% or debt coverage or something like that.   James: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, that's the reason where I'm going with the question because we buy deals, we buy deals or value at deals even at 80% leverage, but in one to two years, that 80% leverage is going to be, 70 to 65% leveraged. So basically it's not leveraged at the start of the loan, it's basically, where are you going to be once you're stabilized; that's the more important thing. Sometimes people get confused that you shouldn't be highly leveraged? Why highly leverage and you don't understand that we are looking for buffer for DSCR? We want to be as further up from the debt service coverage ratio. That's the fundamental discussion about what highly leverage and costing higher risk.   Rich: Right, leverage is your friend, if you're using the leverage to invest capital, if you're using leverage to service debt or to pay out dividends, then you're making a huge mistake.   James: Okay, absolute point, that's an awesome point. That's well-said. I couldn't have said it better. So what about the guys who have done breach loans at that time in 2008 what happened to them and what would you give advice to that kind of people who are doing--   Rich: You mean the answer 2007 or 2008 with a value add deal, and then they had a bridge situation. While those people probably suffered, I mean they didn't execute. If they executed, that's fine. It was hard to push rents back then, everything is based on increase in rent. Fundamental multifamily strategy is how can I increase the rent? What value can I give the tenant so they'll pay more? Now, between 2008 and 2012, the only value add strategy that I know that worked was the fixed deferred maintenance to make sure you kept the lights on, for the most part. So beyond that, I didn't see people putting granite countertops in and all this other stuff because everyone was just trying to supply.   So those people, many of those people who got in at the cycle; at the end of the cycle, didn't make money unless they stayed all the way through 2015-16, so there were about seven years. But you would have to stay in that deal in order to make it. Now I did buy a property in the Midwest that I bought for about 15,000 units. You can get things that way back then. And I bought it in 2006 and I did do really well on it, but it was unusual because I got it so cheap; my basis lever was very high. But at the time it seemed like I had really jumped the shark as they say because the economy wasn't very good, and it wasn't easy to rent up any apartments for a while.   James: So coming back to Midwest, which I believe is MAVA secondary or tertiary market, right? So like right now in 2019 right now, market is so hard and people can't buy in the hot cities like Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, Austin, people are, I mean, I'm just looking at Texas, right? I mean, we're in Florida, we have Orlando, Tampa, and what Jacksonville, and I mean a lot of people have started going to other States and tertiary market or States which is like supposedly supposed to be upcoming. So, what would you give advice to them?   Rich: Well, I think my advice on the States like South Carolina or those kinds of places, is that to study the local market and make sure that it's vibrant, that there are good jobs there. There are a lot of great secondary and tertiary markets. Huntsville, Alabama or Hoover, Alabama or you know, Greenville, Columbia, South Carolina, I mean there's just, you know, Asheville, North Carolina, there's a lot of great secondary markets. I think the biggest problem that people have in these markets, one is they think they can increase rents more than they can. Because if you go to some of these markets and you think you can get $200 for putting in a new kitchen, you might find out you can only get $35 and 20 cents because there's a limit to what a lot of these people were willing to pay in these markets.   And if you go too high, they just want [inaudible 22:56], but there are still some markets that are small that people are really surprised at. I mean if you've been to Indiana and you know, there is Columbus, Indiana, well that sounds like a real nothing place, but Commons is located there, it's a very large company, and it's a pristine town with really high rents. Bloomington is also a great town in Indiana; it's got the college there. So there's a lot of college towns and there are capitals and there are places where there's a lot of manufacturing that's particularly in the Southeast that they didn't have manufacturing before. Some of these places have become very desirable for retirement and for our businesses like Charleston, South Carolina, nothing was going on there except history about 20 years ago. If you've been they are now, they are building homes like crazy. People are moving there to retire. There's a huge tourism business, I think ranked the number one wedding venue one year recently. And then they have they're making small planes there; just tremendous amount of activity going on.   James: What happened to this kind of tertiary market? I'm sure you had similar tertiary market during 2008 where you thought, okay, this is really good to go in and invest in. Looking at some of the cities that you're looking at it right now, what happened to that kind of market in 2008 how did they do compared to the major cities that are well known for--?   Rich: I own the property, and the answer is different. Every tertiary market was different, just like every major market. For example, if you look at the major markets or the secondary major markets take Tucson. Tucson was wiped out in the recession, now people say it's a good investment. Phoenix was wiped out, Vegas was wiped out, Reno was wiped out. Today Reno; people think Reno is part of California. It's hard to buy something under 150 a door in Reno now. So back then it was 50 a thousand a door was a great retirement exit. So I own property in Sierra Vista, Arizona, and there is an army base there. Now, I will never buy another property next to an army base. I don't care what the numbers look like because the politics of the army base are things that I cannot control.   And they decided that army base that they didn't need hardly anymore. So they cut the enrollment at the army base there by about half. And it was the town that depended upon the army base almost completely, not just the army people, but the people who were feeding and the vendors, and everybody else. And so the town really; rents went down about 30-40% in the town, but then there are other locations. I owned a property in Davenport, Iowa and it got hit, but it didn't get hit that bad. And agriculture, which was a real feeder for Iowa, stayed pretty good. And you know, they had the ethanol and that was pretty good. We never got below in general 90% occupancy in the properties that we own there, so it just really depends, you've got to do your research. Just how you can't make a blanket and say tertiary market, secondary market; core markets; it wasn't long ago that people considered Baltimore to be almost a core market.   Because of its proximity to DC on the Amtrak corroder from New York, the new Harbor that they had built there with the aquarium and today, a lot of people don't think of Baltimore as a core market and back then people didn't see DC as a core market. They thought it was crime, wedding blah, blah, blah, you know, stay away from DC. And now today, I mean, you're talking about very expensive real estate all over DC.   James: Awesome, awesome. That is a lot of insights there. So Rich, which market have you been focusing on, I mean, you bought in a lot of markets before these and you probably own some of it over there, but what has your strategy has been at this hot--?   Rich: Right now my strategy is really to buy more in DFW.   James: Okay.   Rich: Our office is here. This is probably the best multifamily market in the country. The cranes are all over the skyline. The jobs are coming in like crazy every day or week there is another multinational company that's relocating from California generally to Dallas Fort worth. There's a lot of vibrancy here. Rents keep tricking up. I like DFW. I've liked Houston a lot in the past; Houston is very squatty though, and there's a lot, I can't just tell you that Houston's going to do well because every part of Houston is so different and there's no zoning, so it doesn't have a character. Neighborhoods don't have as much character that they do here. But Houston is great Austin is great, it's just the real question, isn't what do I like, the real question is, is there an upside? Where is the upside in multifamily today?   And the answer is that there isn't the kind of upside today that there was until a couple of years ago because we were still basically catching up from the recession; a lack of housing, deferred maintenance and household formation. During the people said to me, "aren't there going to be more renters?" Because people were foreclosed, I don't know if you remember that. They will say, "You're in a great business". All these foreclosures, they have to rent now. No, they didn't have to rent. They moved in with their families, they hold up; whatever they had to do. People are much more flexible and adaptable than statisticians and university professors. So people didn't create households, kids stayed in the basement, and so here we are 2012 wondering where are all the renters? Well, it turns out that they were hiding out.   So when the economy got good and they got jobs, they all came out and that created a lot of household formation, a lot more renters. And that created a boom in multifamily. So, either more and more people who need rental housing, absolutely, and particularly in areas like Dallas, Fort Worth where they're coming in for the jobs, they need housing; Austin, they need housing. That puts pressure on rents and they usually start building a lot more too. The areas that have a declining population, I wouldn't invest.   So if a deal's in a city that has a declining population, I automatically say no, I'm not interested in, even if I could fix it up and make some money, to me that's; I'm going against the tide. I'm just one guy, I can't make an ocean. I have to get in my little boat, and I have to have the-- I want the ocean to work for me and not against me. I don't want to fight that. Same or crime; if I'm in an area that has just tremendous amount of crime, it's still, crime is [inaudible31:42], but if it has a lot of crime, I don't want to own it because I can't do all the things necessary to stop crime in my neighbor. I'm not a police department. I'm just one person owning one complex or two in a neighborhood and I've got to have an ability to deliver safe housing to the people who rent from us.   James: Got it, got it. Just want to add one thing to the listeners and audience. If you want to find a city where there's declining on appreciating one free resource, which is very quick to check, it is called bestplaces.net. Bestplaces.Net, and you can go and enter the city information and you can go to a household. I believe it's a real estate statistics and it shows you whether there's a declining population or increasing population. I mean in general, I think Texas is increasing in general. Everybody's moving to Texas and I believe Florida as well, so--   Rich: I mean, if you're looking in Texas and you say, well, why don't I buy in Amarillo or Abilene or these kinds of places, I don't have anything to say. I don't know those markets, but those are not vibrant places generally.   James: It makes sense; vibrant. Okay, got it. But I think the major cities in Texas are pretty vibrant.   Rich: The major cities are really San Antonio, Austin, Houston, and Dallas. Then you have cities like El Paso, Lubbock, Tyler, you know, places like that that are in the second tier. Corpus Christi is another one that is in between the second and third-tier cities. Aon, actually in Corpus Christi real estate, and that's on a lot of people's radar because they are putting along money to the ports and the petroleum industry, but it's not as vibrant as it San Antonio or Austin.   James: Got it. Got it, got it, very interesting. So but Dallas, I mean, I know you're focusing on Dallas, but Dallas prices have appreciated from what 50,000 a door. I mean, I think all over Texas it's like this, right? For the past five years, $50,000 a door to almost a hundred thousand a dollar for a C-class property. So how are you planning to buy deals? I mean since, don't you think at some point the price per door is just going to be limited by the rent wage growth of the--?   Rich: Well, I think that it's a mistake to really focus on price per door. I think it's a better thing to focus on cap rates.   James: Cap rates, okay.   Rich: And if you could buy something over a five cap rate and put loan on it for under 4%, then you have positive arbitrage, and you're going to make money. So a lot of properties are expensive, but property in San Francisco is 350,000 a door. Now, I was a mortgage broker there when they were going for 100,000 a door, and I thought people were crazy. Who would ever pay that? So, we can't let a number and you shouldn't let a number per door impact your buying decision. What your buying decision should be based on is what return on your investment you're going to get. Now, it's true that you want to make sure there's an exit there, meaning that there's somebody else who would buy a property at more per door if that's a problem.   Now there are some markets where maybe that is an issue still, but they're generally very depressed; places like Detroit or things like that or Cleveland. But even those places are not any more per door oriented. So I've seen deals recently that are 120,130 a door. They were bought for 80 a door just three, four years ago. And before that, they had one for 55 a door. And I don't really care what people bought them for in the past, I just care what can I do? What's my return going to be? If I could hit my numbers and I don't really care. Now the question is, can I hit my numbers? Am I chasing a dream that's-- is the ship already sailed? Is there really any more room in this property to enhance value? And the answer has to be yes. And a lot of the areas in Dallas are improving. The income levels are going up in some of these places. The number of jobs in the area is going up, so they're not static environments. Today, a suburb of Dallas is not the same place as it was 20 years ago because now there are four times as many people living in the area, shopping in the area, working in the area, and those people are all competing for housing.   James: Wow, that's interesting. Okay, so how do you underwrite your deals? I mean I'm sure you're looking for upside, right? That's what you talk about in any deals and whether you can make a return on your investment, right?   Rich: I'll tell you my tricks of the trade, which is nothing unusual; first of all, we go into the numbers and make sure we understand the expenses. And we also increase the property taxes based on what we think the assessor will increase the taxes too. Yeah, that's a really big thing; people don't realize they come from out of the outside Texas that your property is assessed every year a new bag. So you can't look at a tax that your seller's paying and think that you're going to have the same tax. So we get the real expenses, and then if we're going to do a value add, we want to find a property that's very similar, same vintage and everything that's already done the value add and see what rent they're achieving, what they've done, and we're not going to go past that.   In other words, I'm not going to be a pioneer and decide that I need golden faucets or Berber carpets or whatever it is; I'm going to make a nice value-add, the same as everybody else. Maybe you are a little better, but I'm not going to a guest that I can get more rent, so that's where I get my revenue, just estimating how many of this was going to renovate? What rents can we get today, today in the marketplace, not tomorrow? And then use those numbers, and if those numbers show that I can get a great return based on what it costs and what the money we put into the property, then it's a go. If the numbers, there's nothing here, I can't get a return from doing this or the rents are tapped out, that kind of thing. Then I pass. And we use a model. I think we use the CRM model. We bought the model because it got too complicated for Excel for us. And so we use a model that we bought to program the IRR and all that stuff.   James: What about the rent growth assumption? How do you usually predict that?   Rich: We don't put more than two or 3% a year in there? We're not looking to create false expectations. 5% rent growth sounds nice, but that doesn't happen all the time. In fact studies in Houston show that there's been virtually no rent growth in two or three years in Houston. And every year they say that they had four or 5% rent growth. And I asked the realtors, is the four or 5% rent growth that these reports say? And nobody seems to know where the data's coming from.   James: Yeah, absolutely. But do you think we can get that 3% rank growth moving forward from now on the next five years? I mean, do you think it's real estate?   Rich: I think we can get the two to 3% rent growth just by doing nothing; if you're in a market that is strong.   James: So it depends on the market as well.   Rich: It all depends on one thing and one thing only, which is wage growth in the market you own.   James: Correct.   Rich: I own a lot of property in San Antonio and there was virtually no wage growth in San Antonio. And I have property that I've owned there now six years, seven years. And the last two or three years there's been virtually no increase in wage growth or rents in none of these markets. The cap rates keep going down, so people keep paying more for these properties. They expect wage growth and rent growth, so everyone has a different expectation.   James: Got it, got it. So what about the, I mean, you mentioned that I mean, you did this for 20 years, own like 8,000 units, you could have multiplied 10 X your holdings by going with private equity money which some people have done. And some people have gone to private equity and came back to be a [inaudible41:31]. Some people are trying to get into working with private equity because it's easier to rent and raising money from retail investors which is like family and friends. I know you mentioned some perspective, but can you give a full perspective on why you didn't choose that route at all?   Rich: Well, we do have family and friends, and private equity, and some family offices in our deals. I have three deals that I have is tuition in, and I just prefer the flexibility that-- I prefer working with individuals and with people I know because multifamily is not a straight line. You buy something a lot of times prizes after you close, you don't know, some problems that you run into. Sometimes you have to replace staff. A lot of times you have a staffing issue. It could take a year or two longer to execute your business plan. And still, it's very good. When you execute your business plan, you make a lot of money, but instead of taking one or two years, it could take five years or four years. And when you have institutional money, they're not very patient and they are very willing after; if you don't make your numbers for one to two years, they're very willing to take the management away or threaten you with your cramming, taking away your investment. Actually, you're cramming down; they call it crammed down; to make the return.   It can be pretty nasty, so that's one of the reasons. It's getting easier to raise money from family offices privately. There are a number of crowd-sourcing platforms; we've done some crowd-sourcing rising for a couple million dollars as infill, you know, to fill in a partnership after a family or friends invest, and we still have a couple million left. Well, we've been successful at raising that money there. We've also used preferred equity, which is kind of a hybrid deal. It's not secondary financing, like mezzanine financing, but it's similar. What they do is there is a pay, they want a pay rate of around four to 6%, and then they want a complete return of let's say nine to 11% or 12%. They'll take the difference when you sell the property well when you refinance. So, it gives you more leverage, you might say, but it's not partnership money, so it reduces the money that you have to raise as a partnership.   James: Got it, got it. And what would you give advice to people who are saying that you know, when the market turns, I mean, they will not be any more private investors anymore, I mean, you have to go back to private equity? Do you think that's the true case?   Rich: You mean institutional equity? You have to go back to-- that's all private equity. I think the reality is when the market turns, everyone goes back into their little clamshell, so what you call it and money is money. And if people don't feel that they can make a return, then they won't invest. Now, what happens is that if the market turns and people are not making return, some deals will go south and will go sour, and then you'll start a new cycle of this trust real estate. And then there'll be opportunity funds or vulture capital guys who are trying to invest in those deals and they'll be looking to invest. So every part of the cycle has a different kind of investor. Right now the profile of the average investor is looking to clip coupons. Most people know that the glory days of making two, 300% on their money is over and they're very happy with what they'd done and now they really don't want to lose their principal. There have gotten more conservative as wealthier people do, and then they say, well, can I get a seven or an 8% or 6% coupon clip every month when you send me a check? And there are a lot more of those people today. There is virtually none of those people in 2008, nine, 10, 11, 12. Yeah, but today, most people have the profile as investors of wanting to have lower risk and are willing to take less reward.   James: So what you're saying is in 2008, everybody disappeared; nobody invests retail, right? And then after that, there is some vulture capital and then now people are looking more into stabilized assets with lower risk.   Rich: The people who appeared in 2008 were the people who worked at Goldman Sachs or Blackstone or these other Carlisle group and these other large accumulators of capital. And what they saw is a tremendous amount of blood on the street as they say. They saw just a lot of financial suffering and they were looking at enabling because of their massive amounts of capital to scoop up troubled assets for pennies on the dollar. So a lot of the mortgages that went bad were sold off for 20, 30, 50% of their mortgage value to these conglomerate; these large companies. And then they went through the process of foreclosing on individual assets. Some of them actually created management companies themselves, and they got the properties back. A bunch of then they put them back on the market and made a lot of money. So there was a lot of business, a lot of wealth created in that time frame, but it wasn't created by people like you and I, it was created in Goldman Sachs, and in Blackstone, and these kinds of places.   James: Got it, got it. So where do you think we are heading in the next two or three years or five years? Are we going to have a slowdown bump or it's going to be a crash into like 2008 or there is just going to be a coupon rolling in multifamily?   Rich: I don't think that we're going to have a crash. I see it more that it's just a steady market and I just think it's going to go up and down a little bit here and there, and I don't see much change from where we are for a couple of more years. I can't see out too far into the future. Sometimes politics and things like that intercede, and we don't know if someone politically comes in and starts changing the tax code like they did in 1986 or something like that. But the way I see it is that America is fundamentally becoming a retro society. People are living a lot longer, and the longer people live the less they want to own a house. A lot of people will own houses and raise families there, but they will exit houses more and more frequently to live in places like central cities or small main street America so they can be near services and doctors and entertainment and [inaudible 49:41].   And I don't think that we're going to go back to the white picket fence for everybody's environment. Now, that doesn't mean people won't buy houses, but when people are not raising children, they will prefer generally to live in smaller environments, more like Europeans do, and I think that pertains, well, for multifamily. There are so many good trends that are feeding into the multifamily trough that I can't imagine right now that in general, multifamily would have a crash.   James: Got it, got it. And so we're coming almost to the end of the show. Can you give us one advice to people who are thinking of becoming like you owning thousands of units and they're just getting started?   Rich: Sure. So this is my main piece of advice is that if you want to be in this realm, then you must make it a full-time job. This is not an investment, multifamily is not a stock that you-- it's not putting money on Microsoft and watching it go up and down. It's an active business, and if we're going to try to be somebody who owns several apartment complexes, then you just really can't buy the complexes and hand away the keys to the management company and expect great results. You have to be very actively involved, visit your properties, know the rents in the market, walk vacant apartments, and make sure you hire good people. It really is a business, and if you're not prepared because of your lifestyle, your other job or something like that to devote most of your time to this business, then my recommendation is become a limited partner in a deal or two, try to make money that way. But don't think that you could become a principal and own five or 10,000 apartments that way, no, it's not going to happen.   James: Got it. I mean, this is one of the requests from our listeners. Is there anyone advice that you want to give to a passive investor who is investing in this deal? What they should look for [inaudible 52:14]?   Rich: Well, the big issue for passive investors is that they should really understand what they're investing in, like any other investment, and not take the offering that they get from the company or the operator at its face value because it could be too optimistic. You want to make sure you agree with the assumptions. So you would probably at the very least get on the computer and look at how much are units really renting for in that area. If they're going to renovate, well, what does a renovated unit look for? Is this an achievable rent that they're projecting and are their expenses realistic? Are they in line with what expenses really shouldn't be? So do a little homework; that's my main thing, and don't just trust that, just because somebody sent you something that said that there's a 30% return, that that's a real thing.   James: Yeah, I have many, many times some passive investors just look at the final return numbers and decide whether they want to invest or not, but they forgot that we are making thousands of assumptions in that spreadsheet. So you rather check the assumptions rather than just the final numbers.   Rich: Absolutely.   James: Right, so Rich we're really happy to have you here. How can the listeners and audience reach out to you?   Rich: Well, they could, we have a website, alcapgroup.com and they can send me an email through there. If they want to know about our upcoming deals, we'd be happy to put them on their list and work with them, talk to them, and see if we can do some business together.   James: Awesome, awesome. Thank you very much Rich for coming onto the show.   Rich: Thanks James, been a pleasure.   James: Pleasure to have you. Thank you.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy and you're listening to Achieve Wealth Podcast where we talk about value-add real estate investing and we interview a lot of commercial real estate operators where you can grab a pen and a paper and start learning.    So today we have Jake and Gino from Wheelbarrow Profits. And Jake and Gino own around 1500 units with 1000 of that units were done solely by them without any syndication. And they have another 400 units, which they started syndication and their primary focus is on Southeast market. Right now, the deals are in Tennessee and Kentucky. So, Hey guys, welcome to the show.   Gino: Hey, James. How you doing? Nice to be here.    Jake: Hey, thank you for having us.   James: Yeah. Did I miss out anything in terms of introducing you guys?   Gino: Well, I mean, for me, I've got six kids. I mean that's probably my biggest achievement to date. I live down in Florida. I relocated two years ago from New York to Florida. I'm a certified life coach. I think that's a really big accomplishment for me and I've got a fantastic partner on the other end. So that's what I guess made my success, having an amazing partner, having an amazing person pushing me and telling me, Hey Gino, we need to buy this deal. Hey Gino, you know, we need to write this book. And I'm like, come on, another thing? So having a great partner really will excel you in life. Did leave anything out, Jake?    Jake: We're economic deserters. We left the high tax Northeast for a better life of sunshine and rainbows and I'd [01:54unclear] friend. No, it's been a great ride. You know, Gino and I, back in 2011, started really looking hard at multifamily. We wanted yield. We wanted something that was going to pay us every month. We had very challenging jobs at the time. I was under threat of layoff all the time. Gino was in the back of the kitchen trying to make sure that he could get dishwashers in every night. And ultimately, we knew there was more to life than what we were experiencing and we sought out to make it happen for ourselves.    So we got into the first deal. It was a tough one. It was a 25 unit and we've never looked back. We've done multifaceted, multifamily ever since. We have four core businesses, we have property management, we have education, we have a mortgage brokerage, we have an investment business and over 20 holding companies to go along with that. So we really look at multifamily, you know, being the place to be because we know that it's a basic human need and we've grown our brands all within the multifamily space. And it's been, again, just a fantastic ride. We've focused a lot on culture scale, and growing the business day in and day out. We had an epiphany moment a few years ago that we were working too hard and we're running around doing everything.    We call it the, 'I'm a' mentality. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do everything. 'I'm a' could only go so far. So I'm ahead to bring some friends. So Jake and Gino, you know, brought some friends on and we started scaling up. And you know, we've got some really great people on the team and I think that's one of the things, I get so much of the enjoyment out of it. Cause I see these people coming on really with us and they just grow and they excel and then we've created a home for them.   Jake: And James, more importantly, that only started with a 25 unit property with $27,000 from Jake, myself and my brother, Mark. So that's the amazing thing. Talking about where to start. I'm too young, I'm too old, the market's too hot. I don't have enough money. Those are all myths that people want to tell themselves. What they're lacking is they're lacking innovation, they're lacking education, they're lacking creativity and they're lacking mastermind. Those are the things that I lacked when I used those excuses.    And if you want to use those excuses, that's fine. But we have so many Jake and Gino community members that are in their twenties and they're in their sixties and they've gone out and they're doing deals. So if you want to get into multifamily, you need to educate yourself first.   James: Yeah, very interesting. You guys are really, really vertically integrated. I mean, as you've mentioned, you guys own property management, asset management and also have a renovation team. And you also do some agency that representation right to the test lenders, I guess for the agency, which is really good. I mean I have the first three but not the last one. Question is, I mean, how did you guys do this 1000 units on your own? I can tell you there's not many people who have done like even like a what, 300 units on their own, right? Everybody syndicates, right? Including me; I syndicate, I used to own...I mean I still own some single-family, which I'm selling off right now, but all my deals are syndicated and a lot of people I talk to use syndication. But how did you guys go from that 25 units to 1000 units on your own?   Gino: We weren't that smart, first of all. We thought that's how you had to do it, to be completely honest with you. Because we said, Hey, we got to buy a deal. We'll buy the deal. We buy it, right? The three-step framework, if you see the wheelbarrow behind me, it's buy right, manage right and finance right. You need to do all three of those. We were buying them right and we're still buying the assets right.    It's truly important that you need to buy the asset right. So we buy these assets, we refinanced the assets and we wouldn't go and buy Ferrari's. We'd actually repurpose that money into the next deal. What really propelled us was we bought a 281 unit property. It was $11 million. It was owner finance. The owner basically said, here you go, here are the keys. We actually had about $120,000 come back to us at closing.   Now that doesn't happen every day, but that happens when you're ready and when you are integrated and you know the business model and you know, to take advantage of that. That really, really propelled us because we were able to refinance that property. So to date, we've refinanced over $9 million of our proceeds. We've rolled that right back into the business and we continued to grow that way. But James, to be honest with you, if we'd been syndicating through three years ago, we'd probably be at the 5,000 unit mark, which is maybe that's great, that's not great but that wasn't our path.    We started syndicating back in November because we saw we could create another multiple stream of revenue, create the asset management company, that syndication company, for syndication. And I had five or 600 investors on our platform because of the Jake and Gino brand. I just couldn't utilize them. We didn't have the space so we brought on another partner to start that business and that's been a fantastic business. We've done two syndications, we've got another deal in the contract right now and we're continuing to grow that. And James, as you know, they feed each other. It's just wonderful. You go to an event, you speak, you do podcasts, the education can sell education, sell books, and then you know what, you're positioning yourself as an authority leader. And on top of that, you're bringing investors on board and you're teaching people how to do it and you're getting the deal source. And it's just such a symbiotic, beautiful relationship.   James: Yeah, it's very interesting because I mean right now, like for example, I was told once, I mean you can do syndication, but your end goal is to own some of the units. But you guys are going the other way.   Jake: We started backward, James. I'm going to tell you something, and this is what I want your listeners to hear because it's the kind of thing where a lot of people are afraid of nonrecourse financing. And we'll tell you right now, non-recourse financing has made me rich and it's made Gino rich; fortune sides with him who dares. We took a chance on it. We couldn't even get into agency debt back when we first started. We were doing a lot of deals that would have been qualified for what is now known as Freddie Mac SBL. Okay. We took on the recourse debt. We had a lot of battles on the front end with the banks. I say a lot of times, it's just as hard negotiating the deal as negotiating the deal with the banks a lot of these times.    So we went in, we fought some good battles. As Gino said, we manage these assets, right? And then we were able to take the financing and sometimes we'd finance the deal once with a community bank and then sometimes you'll refinance it again and send it out to nonrecourse financing over time. So we just really did, we focused on buying these things, right. Adding a ton of value to them and then extracting the value, holding the assets longterm, not selling them, keeping the cost segregation going. And really my view of these is that we're going to buy them, we're going to manage them right. And the party is going to keep going because we're not going to sell them off if we're buying a deal in house. If we're buying a deal in house, we're gonna keep adding assets to it. Keep the cost SEG going and keep that party rolling.   James: But what's your end goal is syndication. I know syndication can grow very quickly in terms of unit counts, right? But your shared...   Jake: But it's not about just growing the unit counts for us, right? We want to have a tool in the toolbox that fits every deal. And we were talking before we got on the show today that we just bought a very hairy deal. It's 26 per unit. People were not being taken care of. It's 146 units. We have 40 vacancies right now. We didn't syndicate that. That was not a good deal necessarily for us to syndicate, but I know over time that deal's going to pay us back very handsomely. So was that a deal that we want to syndicate? Probably not. We're doing a deal right now. It's very clean. It's going to be a nice cash on cash return, right down the alley for syndication. We just want to, you know, any deal that comes our way, we want to, if it's going to cash flow, there's going to be an opportunity, we want to have a vehicle or tool to take that down. And syndication is just one of those tools. Find it in house is another one.   Gino: And I think the opportunity we have now, to piggyback off of that, as where we are in the market, in the market cycle right now, you just gotta be careful of what you're buying. You have to be buying assets in pretty good locations, with pretty good rent growth because when the economy slows down, you want to be able to continue to have your occupancy and run 94-95%. You don't want to see rents dropping. So you gotta be careful what you're buying. Would we've been buying these assets three and four years ago? No, the opportunity was more of those value-adds. Now there's less of an opportunity for our value adds because those prices are already built up. I mean, we went and bought an asset in November at 45 a door. Two years ago, it would have been 30 a door, but that's where we are in the market.    So with that value add, it's very difficult because you've got to put more loan to value. So you've got to put more money down on these deals and there's more risk, as going out 18 months or 24 months, if you're not able to make those preferred payments, you know, they're going to come knocking at you. And then the investor's going to say, well, why did we make the draw this and this quarter? Well, we were trying to reposition it for the long game. That's the thing with multifamily. Everybody out there, multifamily is a long game. It's number one, but debt and taxes, number two, it's about having a business. If you're not going to run the business, somebody has to run the business. And number three, it's a long game. You're not going to get paid today or tomorrow. You're going to be the farmer planting the seed, watering the seed, and waiting six months or 12 months for it to grow. That's why it's hard to get into multifamily because people love transactions. This is not so much transaction-based business unless you start getting into it and then a year, two years down the road, you can create some transactions by refing or by selling or by trading up. But when you start out, it's hard because it's that instant gratifying.   Jake: James, I want to say one thing that just piggyback on Gino here and what he's saying is many of you out there may be syndicating deals and we love syndicating. We love buying deals ourselves. Just keep in mind the syndicators that are the most successful are that they understand that the work starts after you bought the deal. Just because you're syndicating, you need to have that one on one connection, even if you're doing third party management. James, we were talking earlier that you know, he runs his own a property management group. That's when the real work starts folks. So you know, whether you're syndicating, whether you're buying in house, tee it up, make sure you're financing it right. Make sure you're buying it right. But then that managed piece, just because you know, you may not be running direct property management, you need to be having those weeklies with that property management, making sure you're nailing your KPIs.    James: Yeah. I also think that the managed portion makes the most money. Do you guys agree with that?   Gino: I totally agree with that 100% because that's where you're going to increase your NLI. You're either going to increase the income, decrease the expenses, create systems and be able to scale. But the problem that Jake and I had when we hit 650 units, we were still just telling somebody this the other day, we were still using rent posts and we fumbled upon that folio and that was the biggest aha moment. All of a sudden we said to ourselves, it doesn't matter how many units you add onto your portfolio, if you're not managing them efficiently and extracting as much value from them, that's going to be a big problem. So I think managing is the most important. It's ongoing.    Jake: There's more to it though, to James' point. Here's why. Once you buy the deal, there's no going back. You paid the money, you paid that price. That is fixed. That's why I always talk about the back leg of the wheelbarrow being fixed. If you finance the deal for 10 years, and I don't care if you have stepped down or you have your maintenance defeasance wherever you want to say, you're fixed, what are the levers do you have to pull? It's the management arm of it. That's the piece that you're going to be able to. Exactly. Right. That's a great point.   James: Yeah. Yeah, so that's why I always tell my friends and my followers in my Facebook group and all the people who come to me; the operations where you make the most money because before you buy the deal you are putting a proforma, right? You think it's going to be like that. You think it's going to be like that. You think it is going to be 3% operation. You think insurance is going to be this much. Right? So it's a lot of assumptions, but once you close on the deal, it's avail game, right? You are like, Hey, you know, now you have every tool in the box to really trap. That's where you really make the money and you, if you really work hard on the operation, you can make at least, you know,  2-3% more than if you give it to a third party management. Because third party management, they have a lot of other issues. It's not their baby.   Jake: You're not the only customer. Here, we're the only customer baby.   James: And they have a different profit center that they need to really make sure.   Jake: And we won't take on other clients. We only manage our stuff because it's ours and you're absolutely right. We're managing our baby, we're making sure our babies are doing well. There are little soldiers out there working for us. We want them to keep returning.   James: Yeah. Yeah. And also [13:28unclear] if you look at even your own operation, I can decide to, let's say my occupancy drop, I can reduce my staff today just by a phone call. Right. And reduce my expenses as well because my income is reduced. Right. So, but you can't do that on a third party. Right. You are like at the mercy of them. Right.   Gino: I agree with that. And you're also controlling; you're controlling. You can add on more employees. You can actually say to yourself, Hey listen, I want to implement this system. I want to raise my rents so you can have real-time. That's what's great about it.   Jake: Even think about the marketing piece. They may be using, you know, apartments or they may be using roof or whatever they're using and you tell them, well, I want you to stop using that. Well, that might be two or three emails or a week-long conversation to actually get that pulled out. And they may tell you, fly kite here, we just kill it.    James: Yeah, we just kill it. Yeah.    Jake: Move on. There's no question.     James: I have to give credit to my wife. She runs the property management side of it.    Jake: She must be a strong woman.    James: She's a very strong woman.   Jake: We should have her on the show.   James: She's at the property today. So I do the underwriting and investor relationship and acquisition and she does the construction and property management. And you need a lot of...   Jake: You're taking it easy, then man. Come on, you gotta get hurt...   James: My work is a lot on the front end. Right? But one it's closed, it's her work. And I do help out a lot too. Right? So, let's go back to a bit more details on syndication was owning, right? Because this is something that I've been thinking, right? Because Hey, you know, I was like you guys when in the beginning, I did a lot of short term loan, bridge loan and we make a lot of money for us. I syndicated, but my investor was so happy with it, he made so much money. But now with the market being at peak and there are not many deals out there, you know, we have to still get good cash flowing. We still do value-add deal, but no more deep value add deals. Right. So I presume that's what you guys are doing, right? Still, value-add deal but no more like a deep value add when you syndicate.   Jake: No, even the one we just did, we were talking about that; we did it in December, it was 26 a door and we're going in new decks, all new interiors and we have a ton of vacancies. I'm not afraid of it. The key is though, since we have our own management group, I don't want to take on five of these things at once because it's a resource issue at that point. We have resources to do one real heavy value add at the time so we're fine having one of those in the mix. But if you start stacking them, you know you really got to add team members and that's when it gets even more challenging. So for our size of scale right now, I'm very good with, you know, one at a time, getting it kind of rolled up. And we kind of we're just coming off the tail end of another one and then we ramped up into this one. So it's been working out for us.   Jake: So the problem with this deal, not the problem, the opportunity with this deal is we're using community financing. We've got an 85% LTV with loan to cost. So we've got 80% of the loan proceeds going into doing the cap-ex work. We're going to refi that property and bring it to the agency once it's all done. So there's the value there. And the only thing was when we bought it, we were able to have economies of scale. It's near a couple of our other assets are, we're able to use maintenance guys on that property. So that's another one of the reasons why we're able to do that cause just added to our portfolio. If this was something I was all by itself in, you know, down somewhere [16:30 unclear] assets, maybe you'd think twice. But there's always other reasons for doing the deal. And that was really one of the important factors that we saw.   James: And at what point did you start syndication? What was the timeframe? Was it like last year, two years ago?   Gino: So we started, we actually when we came off of our first event, I signed up like 30 people in our event back in November of 2017. I said to Jake, I've got all these investors floundering and that's the thing, when you're signing up investors, James, you have an important role. You need to reach out to those investors and you need to make substantive relationships. You need to start giving them value or else they're going to fall off. So I felt compelled to say to Jake, we need to start creating these relationships with these investors. We decided to hire somebody on and become a partner of that company. The beginning of 2018, February, March, April, we started ramping up, took us a few months to find our first deal. We find our first deal in August and that period timeframe for us, our first syndication, getting the PPM is soft commitments, emails.  It was pretty overwhelming and daunting but we did a small deal. It was only $6 million. It was 132 units. It was something where you can like consume and do your first deal for us. We raised $2.6 million in two days because we had all the framework, we were ready to go, we had the investors, they were prime, we had the podcast, we had the brand out there. But one thing with syndication that's a little different is things move really quickly, and it's a little nerve-wracking that you have to get everything in order. You have to get your emails out, you have to have your documents down, you have to have everything in order. You have to make sure that, you know, you get your webinars going and everything's spelled out clearly to your investors. And that's why it took us a little bit longer cause we had never taken money from the investors. So when it's your money and cash flows and come into the month, Jake says, Gino, septic fields scrapped out. We're not getting paid this month. I can deal with it.   Jake: Plus there was a demand thing we had people asking for it. And it was kind of like at some point where they're going to do, we flirted with the idea for so long as either we're going to do it or not. So we gave it a shot.   Gino:  And that's the thing we could have bought that deal without syndication. But I think it was just the ideal opportunity. It was a new market. It was small enough for us to say, you know what, we can handle this with the syndication. Let's try it. You just got to commit and then figure it out. And that's what we ended up doing. We committed to doing it. We worked with a great attorney, Kim Taylor. She walks through the process. We had great team members and then we just ended up pulling the trigger and we ended up closing in November of 2018 and we followed up with another purchase in April of 2019. About six weeks ago, we closed on a deal and at an additional 240 units in that market. So it's a great learning plus. Once you do one, you figure it out, you figure out the ramifications, the webinars, adding the investors on the documents. And then it's just 'rinse and repeat'.   James: Yeah. I think you guys are the example of why syndication exists, right? So syndication is not like a get rich scheme, right? Not everybody can do it. Not like somebody who was doing W2 can or can do, I'm not saying they must do syndication, right? So in my mind, syndication is like a mixture of an experienced operator, right? So you guys have proven that operator and there are some passive investors which want to place that money into this experienced operator, right? So if I'm getting some guy who was coming up from a boot camp or a  2-day course and trying to do syndication that he doesn't have the experience, I mean he might be coached by someone who's experienced, but I think that's where the syndication comes very powerful, right? When you marry people who really want to be passive with people who are really, really good at what they're doing that's where you get the beautiful marriage there. Right?   Gino: Also students who want to raise deals for others. So James, let's say you're coming short on a raise and you say, Hey, listen, I need to get some way, maybe you can get somebody to raise money for your deal. Obviously they have to be comfortable with you as the operator, as a sponsor. And Jake and Gina is a sponsor with a lot of students start that way by raising money for other people's deals, getting in the game, putting a little lower skin in the game and learning how the syndication process works. And then learning how much work there really is and saying, wow, this syndicator is not putting any money in this deal. But there's a lot of work and there's a reason why there's no money going on the GP side of the business. It's they're signing under debt and they're doing a lot of work for this and that's a great way for people to start getting in the business. Raise a little bit of money for another syndicator if they need that platform, then learn that process. And that's how you learn the process and then you can move on and succeed in getting your own deals.   James: Yeah, absolutely. What's the structure? Can you guys walk through the structure of your company, right? Because you have property management, asset management, you have renovation team, you do some kind of a mortgage brokering as well. On top of that you have an education platform, right? So how big is the whole team?   Jake: You know, probably and not including vendors and whatnot, it's probably just shy of 60 people,   James: 60 people. And how many people...I mean, property management would be the biggest, I guess.   Jake: Oh yeah. Property management is definitely the biggest. And you know, I'm really excited. You know, we do these weekly meetings. I'll meet with every property manager weekly. You know, we meet with the managers of the different divisions of our companies and we call them weekly L10s and we're just really looking forward to this year cause we're gonna really bring everyone together. I think one of the biggest things is when you start to scale and you start to grow, that culture piece is tremendous. Last year we did this big whitewater rafting trip. We brought everyone out. So we're looking for another event this year, but we're going to break down the barriers. We're going to get the core values going, get the tee shirts, bring everyone together for an event. And it's going to be interesting because what we're trying to do now is even get those synergies amongst the different companies jamming that much better together. Get everyone walking to the same beat and so I'm very excited about that.   James: And how many of the 60 people, like a property management. Do you have a number?   Jake: Well, we're going to be creeping up close to 46-47 on that soon. So, you know, we'll have a couple on the investment side of the business and then a handful on the continue education side.   James: Okay. Okay.   Jake: Okay. Property management and that's including our renovation team called the cap-ex crew. They are the elite Navy seal ninjas of property management and they go in when others can't, they get it done.   James: Yeah. So your renovation crew is supposed to be, I mean it's in house, but it's not really announced in terms of financial, right, because they're not supposed to be part of the P& L right? Is that correct?   Jake: Yeah. So that's basically going through the property management group.   James: Okay. Okay. Yeah. That's very interesting. And how did you guys...   Jake: He wants to see an income statement now, Gino.   James: Because...   Jake: I'm just messing with you man.    Gino: So James, I'll dive into the education a little bit more. We started the education about four years ago. October 2015 we launched the book with our profits behind me and it was just me basically quit my restaurant and said, Jake, I need to do something. I'm in New York. Let's start a podcast. And we didn't know why we started the podcast. We should have probably started it to get investors. But we just started because we wanted to learn. I mean, how many times can you speak to Ken McCroy or you know, Robert Kiyosaki for an hour, right? I mean, it's just amazing. So that's where we started. And then from that, we said, okay, how do we continue to build this? So we started selling, creating educational products. We wrote the book, we have trainings on Kajabi, we have mentorships, we have coaching.   And to grow and scale that business, I can't be doing one on one coaching all the time. So we hired a community director. We've got an operations manager in that business full time. We've got three part-time, we've got three full-time sales guys. We've got four coaches right now. We have two deal review coaches on top of our accountability coaches. So as you start growing, you commit, you figure it out, you start scaling up. But the real thing that you need to do is you need to get really qualified people. You need to get great people. Like Jake talks with the culture and our culture is basically a blue-collar work ethic. It's we don't want to hear 'it's not my job' because I'm still packing books. I'm still doing $5 an hour work when I have to. And Jake's doing the same thing. And I want that to convey those small startups with Jake and Gino and we're going to be able to expand this. We're gonna be doing weekend events to just start selling more products and we're going to start bringing on more sales guys. And as the community grows, I think that culture is going to be pervasive throughout all of the entire organization where it's like customers first, you know, students first. It's not me, it's we and whatever it takes gets done. I think that can permeate throughout all of the layers and all the multifaceted multifamily. And that's really important. So when we first thought about Jake and I, Jake will tell you, he thought culture was crap and it was working corporate because it didn't serve him. But I think as he sees it, it's everything right now. Because when they see Jake and I working hard and doing that, it just, you're the leader, you're supposed to be part. If you're going to put in a mission statement in words, and I got house rules over here, if you're not following your own house rules, how do you think your employees are going to follow the house rules.   Jake: James, nothing fires me up more than 'it's not my job'. You want to see the roof come off this house right now, smoke start coming out of my ears. That's the one thing that I can't handle.   James: My wife and I get upset when somebody said I do not know, I said, don't tell me 'I don't know'. Tell me, 'I'll figure it out'.   Jake: Or you know, let's ask and work on it. You know, it's like I can handle that a lot easier than 'it's not my job'. Cause that's like a moral and a work ethic issue and everyone else is working so hard and you're going to sit there and say something like that.   James: It's a clash between ownership mentality. I mean, especially with the property management, right, with the ownership mentality and employee mentality, right? Because a lot of times in property management, the people are working with employee mentality, but owners, we are more, we want to see the profit. We want to be really part of the profit center. Make sure everything runs as how we want for the investors. At the same time...   Jake: Gino knows about the blue-collar work ethic. We finished up a podcast with who was the guy that used to be in Bigger Pockets, who was the guy there? It was Brandon and Josh. And we got a video. We were out there one day. A tree fell across one of our assets that we just bought and was laying across the sidewalk. You know, we didn't have anybody at the time to do it. So Gino and I went down there, took out the chainsaw, chop that bad boy up, threw it in the back of the trailer and made a day of it. We got a video, I think it's still out there on YouTube, so it doesn't matter. I don't care what job it is, I'll do it all myself if we have to.   That's not how you scale, number one. That's 'I'mma' mentality. But if it comes down to it, if it needs to be done and there's no one else to do it, I'm going in and I'm going to do it. It's just period.    James: Awesome. Awesome. That's the work ethic, right? Sometimes you have to do it.    Jake: It's gotta get done. Somebody has got to do it. And the idea is to build a machine and put the systems in place to make sure it runs fluidly. You know, every day the best work that I can do is help working on the machine and building the machine. But it's not always going to be there. And sometimes, you know, a bolt falls off and if I gotta be the guy to screw it back on, I'm going to do it.   Gino: I think it's important to say that the machine isn't built from the very first day. From the very first day you're going to grow as a person. So four years ago, I wasn't doing the best work of what I had to do. I was just doing whatever work I needed to do. But now as you scale, and as you're able to do that, as you become financially free, you can start thinking about working on the business as apart as the working in the business. And the first three or four years, Jake and I were really working in the business. And we weren't able to create these multiple streams of revenue. We're just surviving and learning. And that's fine. That's what everyone's progression is. But once you get into it, when you start doing it, you can start transitioning out and start like what Jake said, start creating those systems. But if you don't start with a 25 unit property, you're never going to be able to do what you know, what actually transpires after.   James: Awesome. Let's go to some market selection questions. So how did you guys select this market?   Gino: Well, it's funny, Jake was going down in 2011 he moved down there and I had it on one of my other podcasts with my wife. He went to Knoxville, move there for six months without his wife, struggled. I mean, it's not an easy thing. He left New York, he abandoned New York and I'm up there at the restaurant. I had just met him and I'm like, Jake, these numbers work down here. Let's start looking at deals in Knoxville. His metrics for moving was; there were no state income tax, close to New York, decent weather, cost of living is great. So he moves to Knoxville. And ironically, enough, that's what makes it a pretty good market to invest in multifamily, right?    James: Population growth.    Gino: And we got lucky, we got lucky with that one. But we started investing, we started looking at deals. I think, you know, the Southeast is great. So like you said, we're vertically integrated within three hours of Knoxville. So that's what we're looking. I mean, throw a dart, there are so many great cities around there to invest in that market. We don't want to go up in the blue States, we want to stay. Texas is a little bit overbought. I mean, you know why. I mean, you have been an engine of economic growth there. People are flocking there because there are jobs there because there's infrastructure there and because people want to live there. So, that's what's happening. So I think, you know, as far as us, we just got lucky. We picked Knoxville and now we're able to go out into these other markets that mirror what Knoxville is.   Jake: And in addition to that too, we have a specific strategy that we're looking to be the best customer service property management company for C and B apartment complex. We own some A stuff but it's kind of because the deals worked and we bought it, but we see a discrepancy where C and B operators typically do not have that good of customer service. I love what Chick-fillet does with a $7 chicken sandwich. How are you doing today? It's a pleasure to serve you. How can I help you? It's that great customer service and I truly believe that is a blue ocean. That is our blue ocean strategy. It's going to separate ourselves and we rebrand all our properties, brand as our property management company so that when people pull up, they're going to know that these people care. We believe renting is personal and our residents are our number one priority. Okay, that's what we're about and that's the difference in how we run our properties and I think longterm it's not going to happen overnight. That's a longterm strategy is going to take years to fully implement, but that's the separator from us and the other guys.   James: So how do you guys standardize this? You know, the awesome operator experience for class B and C, how do you standardize it across the organization?   Gino: Yeah. Well, first thing you do is you start going on training platforms like Grace Hill, you start systematizing platforms and training. We're creating our own internal training right now for our maintenance techs. And then we're going to transitional to training our leasing techs. That's really important to have something standardized to train them. And I'm doing the same thing on education. So when we were onboard, as a coach, I created a training platform for our coaches to watch videos and show how to coach them. And it's the same way in anything. You want to be able to have something standardized where they're all playing from the same drum.   Jake:  So I'd like to elaborate on that a little bit as well because, so it starts with the basic stuff, like Gino mentioned Grace Hill. Now we also have a product called Kajabi where we've taken the Grace Hill training and we have, it's basically our elevated in house training that we're putting on the Kajabi platform where we're teaching our guys if they don't know how to do something, we're having level one, two, three and four for maintenance techs, for example. And then there's a YouTube page where they can go on and actually from their phone remotely check the video, Oh, this is how I need to change out this garbage disposal or thermostat, whatever the case may be. And so as we're going through, you're talking to us as we're in the middle of launching this entire customer service training program. In addition to that, it started with Grace Hill. We're moving to down to a Kajabi and we're working with Grace Hill on Kajabi at the same time. Once we're done with the maintenance end of it, and we should be done in the next couple of months with that end of it, it's then going to the full-service customer service piece. We have weekend trainings now. I don't want you to think that we're just starting this, but this is how we have the full-on slot of our strategy implementation. In addition to that, we've started working with Petra, they work with scaling up. I don't know if you're familiar with that.    James: No, not Petra.   Gino: Okay. It's Verne Harnish's book, Scaling Up.   Jake: And essentially, they look at people, strategy, execution, and cash. And you know, we've gone through top grading and making sure that we're getting players on the team. But the one piece of that is we fill our funnels up really full. We have all these ideas that we want to implement. So we have a good strategy, we have good people, we have good cash, but it's that execution piece that we need to get better at. So, you know, while we have an education company, we're open-minded and we know we can always grow and get better. So we're bringing in the best of the best. This is, you know, from everything I've seen, the best scale company in the country and they're working on our business as we work on our business to make us the best customer service property management group in the industry. So that's where we're going.    Gino: The cool thing about the whole education platform is we never would have done this training internally if we didn't have Jake and Gino. Because Kajabi is our online training platform for education. So it just bled over. And I've mentioned that, I said Jake, we need to do these videos to show the maintenance tech when he goes in, how to change a toilet, how to fix a hot water heater. This can all be documented by training videos. So if we didn't have the education platform, this never would have been even been a thought in our minds. And I think the other thing when you are going out as a business owner, keep your eyes open to what other businesses are doing.    My son had gotten a job down the street or at a restaurant and I was amazed at how many applications these people were taking in. They had an ADP platform and I said to Jake, this is another scaling up option where we can start onboarding our employees. And it's just a great tool. So, you know, a tip for everybody out there, if you're in multifamily real estate, see what other industries are doing because you can adapt and pull from other industries and use it to your advantage.   Jake: I want to talk about that a little bit though, Gino, because what we're basically getting with that is we've used ADP for years, but they have, I'm going to call ADP plus. It's their, whatever, you know, higher-end product. But they will give us for all our different brands, we will have a very corporate and professional landing page now. So we have something called the ran pride video. It's showcasing our folks, talking about our culture, which, you know, not have a history of the company video. All of these videos will go on these landing pages. So when potential employees want to look at us, Hey, that's what these guys are about. So we're selling ourselves; let's not kid ourselves, we are in the tightest job market in 60 years. So we need to be recruiting the best people in and we're not going to have a good organization.   So we're doing everything we can to make it a great work environment, get great people in the door and keep them. Because once they come in, we have a very low turnover. But you know, from ourselves, marketing ourselves to the outside world, we need to let them know what we're about. And then as they're coming through, they're putting their W2 information all into the ADP. It's all electronically saved in the cloud and that carries them through. It also has the HRS software so that our HR folks can manage that throughout the entire lifespan of their time with us. So we're really focusing, like I said, on scale culture and operations because, you know, the other things, the people, the strategy, the cash we've done very well with. So it's that execution and pulling it through I think is gonna propel us over the next 10 years.   Gino: And James, do you need it when you have 100 units? Maybe not, but if you're thinking of getting bigger, you're going to have to implement all these systems. Don't be overwhelmed with it now at 100 unit market, just think that you know, as you grow as a person, as you grow as a business person, you're going to be able to figure out those ideas and go...   Jake: Yeah, we're laying the framework to go from 50 to 500 employees.   James: Yeah, that's really good because I know Grace Hill, because I use it as well, we use ADP, but I've never heard about HRS and I mean I know about Kajabi, but I didn't know that you guys are using Kajabi as well.   Jake: So we blended the two together and then we're actually using a YouTube page for the videos so that they can get it right from the app on their phone. And it's coming together pretty nicely actually.    Gino: And there are so many app platforms out there. You can use Lightspeed, you can use Kajabi. We are one of the founders on there seven or eight years ago when they launched. So we've been using it for a while and we just got comfortable with it. There are so many different, you know, LMS systems that are out there.    Jake: The executives within our company, they love building this because they see the need for it. So they enjoy it and they're great. You know, there some of the ones out there filming, well not filming uncle Shawn's doing that, but actually, doing the tutorials on the maintenance or the customer service videos. So everyone's getting involved   Gino: And they're creating the assessments too, cause you want to actually have them watch a video and then do the assessments. So they're creating all that also, which is awesome.   James: So let's go into a deal, deal level detail or how do you, I mean, let's say today you get a deal today, right? From broker, off-market, right? So what are the things that you would look at, look at it quickly to either reject it up? Cause I presume a lot of deals, you guys don't even underwrite it, right?   Jake: We do a quick underwriting. So we're looking for cash flow from day one and the opportunity to force appreciation in the future. So what does that mean? You know, if it's a stabilized deal we want to be, I'd love a six and a half cap, you know, if we're a little bit lower than that and you know, six to six and a half cap, I think we can typically make it work if it's in a good location, if we're going to syndicate that deal and we're seeing, you know, 8% cash on cash, we like that. And you know that typically, we'll take it to the next level and start looking a little deeper.   James: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. And I presume deep value add, it really doesn't matter on the entry capital, on any of that.   Jake: Let's talk about that. So the deal we just bought, you know, if you're talking about actual is was a, you know, like probably like maybe like a...   James: 2%   Jake: And it was a beat to crap 1970s build. But you know, what are we talking about? Like do we really care what the cap rate is on that deal? No, because we know when it stabilizes the cap rates going to be more like a 12 so it's again keeping your mind open to each deal. What can I do and what's the opportunity with this deal? How do we want to take it down? Is it going to be an in house buy? Is it going to be, you know, a bridge financing, whatever the case may be as an agency? Or is it a syndicated deal? You know, all of these things weave together.  And that's the beauty of this game is that we have multiple things that we can do to extract value and create great things. And so, it gives us an opportunity to have fun with it.    Gino: And James, Jake's speaking up specifically, if we're in the 26,000 a unit, we need to add another four or 5,000. If you're into it for 31,000 a door, I know that that asset in right now is trading over 50 a dor. So I know that that right there is a whole month for us. So that's another way I like to look at the per-unit cost of what we're buying. And I like to look at the expenses. If I'm underwriting a deal, we know that the expense should be 4,200 and the operator is running it at 4,900, you know there's value in there. If there's other income that they're generating, that's only 2%, we know typically we can get 10 to 12% of other income. There's another income, there's another value add right there so we're looking for those.    And you know, you'll hear from brokers every day of the week that you can raise rents, you can raise rents. So I have to spend 10K a door to raise a $50 rent, or can I spend 3 K a door and get that same $70 rent bumps. So you have to really try to analyze the market. And I think the other thing you need to be careful is where you're buying. You know, marginal areas, you're not going to get as much elevation right now and it's a little bit riskier. So, you know, we're just buying an asset right now; if it's in a great location, we'd like it. And Jake likes to say he likes to be your Kroger's Wholefoods and Chick-fillet if you can buy in that location...   Jake: Starbucks, bring it on.   James: You guys do value add, right? So let's say your rehab budget got cut into half, right? 50% of what you have. First of all, let me ask you, what is the most...   Jake: Why did that happen and are we playing the what-if game.   James: You never know. Yeah, that's a good question because I want to, tune your mindset to the question that I want to ask. So what is the most valuable value add that you guys have seen? Jake: What is the most valuable value add? Like what is like did we get the most out of doing flooring? Did we get the most out of...?    James: Correct. Let's say you have a budget got cut. Now you have a small amount of budget.   Gino: That's a great question. It depends on what property you're looking at because some properties may, if you put a dog park and you fix up the clubhouse and you do a good job of the pool, you may not see incremental value on that. But all of a sudden you're keeping the tenants and in your act you have to compete with the property down the street. So on one of our properties, we put a dog park in, we've put a fitness center and we did a nice job in a clubhouse and we actually did a pool and the decking. That didn't translate...I'm thinking, it translate into increased value and increased rents, but it also made be able to compete with other people in the market space. I think landscaping, people don't understand; power washing, landscaping, and painting are three of the most important things.   On our property, when we took over November, we actually had rents at 525; they went to 675. And we saw them in the Google reviews. These tenants were saying, you know what, these people were raising rents, but they care; customer service. That's one of the biggest value adds, customer service. We put out exterior lighting so they feel safe at nighttime. We took care of the landscaping there. We put in a gazebo there. We stripped the parking lot and seal the parking lot. We put in a dog park there. Signage was really important. Not huge amounts of money, but anything to turn the look of the property, the feel of a property, you want to show your tenants and any of your customers that you're adding value and not just going there and raising the prices. At the end of the day, why are you raising the price on me if you're not giving me some type of value?   Jake: I'll dive into it a little bit more too. I mean, the basics that, you know, I feel like that you have to go with a lot of times are, I personally love sheet vinyl. I know a lot of people want to put in the plank and this thing. We have this amazing, it's called nature's trail. If anyone wants to go out and look at it, it's skinny, it's white. So it looks like the barn style flooring, it's beautiful, it's got great, great tones in it. Installed, we're $1.74 a square foot. I mean, that's phenomenal. And it goes in, it looks beautiful. It looks like there's hardware throughout. So if I had to really get down to bare bones and I'm turning a complex, I'm going in with my nature's trail, I'm going in with my proposed gray and I'm going white on the wood. So the woodworks, the trim, and the baseboard, I'm going a nice pure white Sherwin Williams and it gets like a 7004 or something like that.   Jake: And then, in addition to it, the property we did in December, we were like, okay, let's pull back a little bit because we're painting the cabinets. And we saw a little bit of a spike in our available units. So we went back in, we reassessed it, and we said, you know what? It looks too damn good not to, it's an extra 350 bucks. Let's just keep painting the cabinets and then we're back to zero available units. So it's always, I think, and this goes back to what you were saying earlier about being a hands-on operator; looking at these things, looking at your KPIs, saying, what the hell, why do we spike? Oh, it was my fault cause we're being cheap. So we went back in and now we're filling it back up like that.   Gino: At the same time, Jake also, you don't have to spend $170 on a ceiling fan. Maybe you see your supply spiking like they did a year and a half and saying, hold on, this unit doesn't need $170 ceiling fan.   Jake: It's a beautiful $75 ceiling fan. They're beautiful fan blades. You get the multicolor here. So yeah.   James: What do you guys think that, I don't know, this is my experience that I see. I mean a lot of times you can put in Capex and all that, but I think the management itself, just managing it correctly, people are just so happy paying you 50 to $75 more   Jake: But you're talking about customer service then.    James: Yeah, customer service. Yeah, correct. I'm not saying that's the most valuable value add, but I'm just saying in terms of...   Jake: I'll say it. Listen, if you come in and you say it's a pleasure to see you, it's a pleasure to serve you. How may I help you? What can we do to make your unit better? We have this unit today. We're gonna treat you like gold. I'll take that over the new paint.   Gino: Jake also, the other thing is when they call for a maintenance request, don't want to wait six days for hot water heater, you have to get to them.    Jake: You're not going back to the hot water heater on me again; are you? Comeon man.   Gino: I love the hot water heater in my house the other day. 44:20crosstalk] We took over the third property. I remember I was in the restaurant and Jake is sending emails, we're turning units. And we had a client come in and started crying cause we've fixed the stove. He didn't have his stove for how long Jake? It was just like the silliest thing in the world. I mean come on. So, I mean, the customer service is really, when you get a maintenance request, send out the maintenance tech and get it done. You know, that's simple.   James: Yeah. It's just amazing on you to just take care of the tenants or the residents and they are so happy to pay you so much money compared to, why didn't a new ceiling fan you? I mean that's all secondary for me. So it looks like we share the same concept as well. So, let's go back to a bit more personal stuff flow. Maybe, one by one, right? Why do you guys do what you're doing?   Jake: Yeah, I'll get into that. It literally is about control and freedom for me. I am responsible for myself and my family and I was not in a position of control or a position where my family's life was secure. It was in the hands of others and I did not feel good about that. I, ultimately at the end of the day, am responsible for everything that comes into my environment and I need to handle that. Multifamily gave me an opportunity to take control of my destiny. And you know, by adding value to others, I was able to in return receive value. And it's been a phenomenal thing for me because I don't want to be, you know, dependent on Wall Street. I don't want to be dependent on a CEOs decisions. I have a lot of faith and confidence in myself and Gino and I know if we do the right thing it'll come back to us. And again, it's something that I don't ever want to be in a position where my family is worried about, you know, where's their next meal gonna come from. Great thing about all this is we've created abundance in our lives.   And you know, we started something called Ran Carriers last year and we were able to actually feed 10,000 kids for Thanksgiving. And so, you know, we'll see if we can match that or do about 15 this year, Gino. And so it's when you bring abundance into your life, you can't help someone else if you don't have the means to do it. So by us driving the ship, we've been able to create abundance. We've been able to create good homes for folks and we've been able to give back. So it's been pretty special.   James: Awesome. What about you, Gino, why do you do what you do?    Gino: I wouldn't  know what to do if I didn't know what I wasdoing right now. I mean, honestly, I'm pretty much financially secure. If I didn't have Jake and Gino, I could just probably live off of the draws of the property. But that gets to be a little boring after a while. So I'm doing what I really like. I mean, the education, growing a business, I always wanted to grow a business from the ground up. I was wanting to help people out by buying properties and by coaching them in motivating and inspiring them. And if I can monetize on that, it's a home run for me. So I enjoy what I'm doing right now. I mean it took me a long time to figure out, and it's funny cause I feel sad for kids coming out of college. What do you want to do when you get older? If you're an adult and you figure it out by the time you're an adult, you're a little lucky. Most adults can't even figure that out.    So Jake talks about it, you know, don't follow your passion. I mean sometimes if you're passionate about opening a restaurant and that's what you want to do, but sometimes it turns into a job. So you just be careful. You know, if you're lucky enough to become financially free and then figure out what you want to do and do something that you love, I think that's like the most important thing in the world for me.   Jake: He's been humbled right now. The G dad is a giver. He likes helping people and you know, not for nothing. The education has allowed people to buy over 3000 apartment units. And I know that's what Gino gets excited about. You know, it's helping other people and, and it's that giving back piece because it's a tremendous community that we have. And the folks inside the community are all like-minded, hardworking individuals. And I think it's because of the, you know, the sort of persona that we give off and we tell people about the values and necessarily what we're about and people are connecting, they're converting and it's been amazing to watch. And they'll get inside the private Facebook group, Hey, we just knocked out a hundred units today and then everyone gets on and start congratulating, how'd you do it? Let's hear about the deal. And it's become great networking. We'd love to see the continued success.   Gino: The phone calls that you get and the 48:42unclear]  year-round. When a student says, I just left my job, or I'm leaving New York and I'm moving somewhere else. That's really worth a lot, man. Because when you get those emails saying, Hey, you know, you've changed my life. There's something that, you know, you can't replace that; that's something that you can't put a dollar amount on, cause you're helping others and you change somebody's life and you change someone's family's life. And that multiplies in effects of people that they know. So that's really cool. That's one of the cool things about education.   James: Yeah, that's one thing that you bring to your end days, right? So it's not about the money. I mean, you usually forget how much you've made, but the appreciation that people have shown you for you're helping them, it speaks. Second personal question. I mean, this is probably, each one of you can answer it. Maybe you can combine together. Is there a proud moment in your life that you think you will never forget, that that moment really impacted you then and you are really, really proud of that moment and you want to tell their stories to your grandkids?   Jake: Yeah, I got one. I got one coming up now. And it's not about myself. It has to do with Gino as well. We were at the event last year, we had a phenomenal event in Nashville, you know, and Gino calls them the 'do rules'. We had over 500 people there, whatever. And it was all about multifamily for two days and just great speakers. It's our annual event, multifamily mastery. And that it wasn't necessarily anything other than it created an opportunity for my daughter. And she went out there and Gino's kids were there and they were learning business and we had some fun shirts that said like Jake and Gino are multifamily masters or something. But my daughter at the time was three years old, she went out and started networking with people and she actually sold a shirt for like 15 or 20 bucks and then she came over and she was so proud. She hugged me and told me about it and I was able to announce it to the whole room and the whole room like erupted because it was just, you know, it's this little girl going out there and then she was making it happen. So I'll never forget that. And it just is, you know, because of the community that it created that moment for me. So that was very special to me.    Gino: So we'll leave it at that cause I've got so many stories, but that's one story.    James: Take one story.   Gino: I mean one of my proud moments March 1st, 2016 when I left the restaurant and it wasn't because I was leaving a bad situation. It was finally saying to myself that I achieved something that I had been working for forever. I finally was saying to myself, I don't have to do that anymore. I have been there doing it for 20 years, over 20 years, locked in the same job and if I can change after 20 years and having those limiting beliefs and being able to grow and do something different, I think I just wanted to inspire other people that do that. So that was really a proud moment in my life.   James: Awesome. Awesome. We're at the end of the show, why not you guys tell the audience and listeners about how to get in touch with you guys?   Gino: He's the sales guy, so I'll let him shoot.   Jake: Listen, if you can't find this, we're not doing our job very well, but it's really simple. Jakeandgino.com, ranpartnersllc.com if you're looking to invest or rancapllc.com if you're looking into the debt side of things   Gino: and please subscribe to the podcast. We have the number one multifamily podcast on iTunes called Wheelbarrow Profits. We have four shows now. I've actually launched the show with my wife called Multifamily Zone. We have the Movers and Shakers podcast, which highlights a student's success every week. And then we have the Rand Partners podcast on syndication. So we're doing shows, we like going out there as part of our fashion.   Jake: Hold on, Gino, there's more. We're going to give a teaser. So we had the best selling book, Wheelbarrow Profits on Amazon and we're phoning it up this year, right? We've got the honey bee coming out in October. We put a lot of work into this thing. It is a phenomenal book. And it tells a great story and this is not your traditional business book. Gino give a little bit more on that. What would you say about the honeybee?    Gino: It's a parable basically about a gentleman who's frustrated, is very similar to Jake's story. Going around, has a boss, hates his job, and then just stumbles upon an older man who's willing to mentor him and find out that, you know what, there's more to it. How do you have all this? The analogy of a river with little tributaries growing into a big Russian river and it's all about creating multiple streams of income, starting small and making the stakes, and then all of a sudden, five years later, you've created something really great. So we just wanted to translate our success and just have people open up to the idea of that you can start small but create those businesses and then from one little stream of revenue, you can end up having four and five like you do James. And like we do.    Jake: And I'll just leave with this because the one thing that I really picked up from Gino early on in our investing career was to get rid of limiting beliefs. I know it's like a big Tony Robbins thing as well, and people talk about this, but it's so impactful because you know, you'll sit there and say, Oh, I can't do that. Well, you're right, if that's the way you're going to think about it, you're right. I grew up in a super small town on a dirt road out in the middle of nowhere. And that's the truth. And you know, we've been able to grow this business to, you know, over a hundred million in assets and you know, created financial freedom and generational wealth for our families. So there was, you know, literally in the town that I grew up in, you could work at the school, there was a factory that made chairs and you know, my family was like, well, maybe you should be a cop... Gino:  Or a gym teacher.  Jake:  You know, I literally went to school to be a gym teacher because I played sports and that's all I knew. So don't limit yourself because look, multifamily is not rocket science. It really isn't. Get educated. I always say education times action equals results. It's possible for anyone out there to do it, especially a pizza guy and a job rep were able to do it.  James: Yeah, I always tell people, if you think there's no deal out there, you are right. If you think there are deals out there, you're absolutely right too.   Gino: I love that.  James: It's that mindset that you have to get away from. Jake: Listen, look at the deals for two or three weeks and then having them not pencil out, it can be very discouraging. Try two years. That's how long it took this guy and I to get into our first deal. So yeah, I always say, you know, the best thing we ever did, we were pesky. We hung in there. We kept driving.  James: Exactly. All right guys, thanks for joining this podcast. You guys added tons of value and we're happy to have you share.  Gino: Thanks James.  Jake: Thanks James. 

James: Hi audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Last week, we had Scott Hendricks who is a wealth manager and he covered a whole slew of topics ranging from 1031, being a broker-dealer, how someone can be a broker-dealer to raise money legally. He also covered DSTs - Delaware Statutory Trust and some of the items of Opportunity Zone. So it was a very, very interesting topic where I learned a lot and I'm sure if you go back and listen to that, it's going to be very, very educational as well. Today I have Yonah Weiss from a medicine spec. Yonah is a business director and a medicine specs. She is focused on a lot of things but primarily Yonah focuses on cost segregation and bonus depreciation, which gives us a huge tax benefit for a lot of commercial asset class investors. Hey, Yonah, welcome to the show. Yonah: Thank you very much, James, for having me. It's a pleasure to be on your show. I love your show. It's one of the most, I'd say, one of the highest quality podcasts in the industry. James: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I've been doing this for the past six to eight months and recently, I don't know it, it's a surprise to me as well that, you know, one of the I think radio public they selected this show as one of the top 24 shows for real estate investing in 2019 which is a very big surprise for me. So I'm happy that people are finding value in this podcast and I'm learning as well. So, Yonah, you have been in a lot of podcasts in many, many podcasts so I definitely want to cover cost segregation, bonus depreciation, but I want to go a lot deeper into a lot of other aspects of your personal growth and of the tax code itself. So hope you're ready for this. Yonah: Let's do it. James: Okay. Awesome. Awesome. So at a very high level, can you define depreciation? Yonah: Depreciation, in fact, usually means something going down in value. But for our intents and purposes, because we're talking real estate here, it's actually just a borrowed term. It's a tax deduction. It's a tax write off based on the fact, on the principle, that things go down in value as time goes on. So the IRS gives you, as a property owner, a tax write off of the entire value of your property over a certain number of years and that write off is called depreciation. James: Okay, got it. Got it. So it becomes much sweeter when the depreciation is just a paper loss, rather than actually losing the value of the building. Yonah: Exactly, exactly. So it's different from, an appraisal standpoint, you know, an appraiser might look at the property and be like, it actually has a lesser value because it is this many years old. So that's the difference when we're just talking kind of theoretical. James: Got it. So clarify me if I'm wrong. Only in the US, we get depreciation for a property that already been built and used for like 20-30 years. When someone buys it again, he gets a fresh depreciation start. Is that right? I mean, all other countries are like if you build new, they consider it getting old and it's depreciating. Is that true? Yonah: Right. Yeah. I mean, I can't say for sure because I'm not really well versed in every other country's tax laws. But yeah, the US tax code is based on, even if it's a used property, you can actually take the tax write off, which is actually interesting because a lot of people don't know this. You can actually use depreciation on properties in other countries if you're a US taxpayer. So if you own, let's say, a large property in India or wherever and you're paying us taxes, you can actually take the depreciation deductions from that property on foreign soil. It's a very little known fact, but it has to go on a different schedule. It's called the ADS, the Alternative Depreciation Schedule, which is a little longer instead of 27 years, it's 40 years. But yeah, that is something unique as well. James: Oh, I think that's probably a new fact for a lot of people because a lot of people have properties in other countries. So, do you know the details on how do you get the depreciation or you just have to work with a CPA and some tax consultant or how is that? Yonah: Yeah, I mean like all of your depreciation, it should go on your schedule with listing the property and then it just has to be filed on a different schedule. Meaning it's like I said, it's called the alternative depreciation schedule instead of the regular, which is called the modified adjusted, the regular schedule and the macro schedule, which we go on for most things like 27 and a half years for a residential, 39 for commercial. So it's important to just note that and work with the CPA, who knows how to do that because yeah, you can get extra tax deductions. James: And is this depreciation only for a brick and mortar assets? Is there any other assets? Like if I buy a goal, if I buy, I mean land, of course, there's no depreciation, right? There are only for buildings, which is a true brick and mortar. Is there any other investment vehicle that has depreciation other than real estate, which is the brick and mortar? Yonah: Well, there are other types of properties like equipment and things like that that maybe commercial owners might have, which have depreciation deductions. It's different than the regular depreciation, which we discussed in real estate. It's under a different code. The 179 deductions, which you know, will apply to a lot of commercial equipment and stuff like that that you can use that deduction to write off business equipment and things like that. Or even if you know large, you know, software, you know, any type of business, an asset that you're buying is not necessarily property that can be deducted and depreciated. James: Got it, got it. So, yeah, that's very interesting because depreciation is one of the most powerful word for real estate investing. I mean, compared to stocks and bonds and, you know, buying a goal. I mean real estate is something that, you know, this has been created by the tax code to say that....do you know why they do that? Is it because all the people in Congress invest in real estate that's why they kept depreciation as it is? Yonah: That's my theory. James: Thanks for being honest. Yonah: It hasn't been corroborated, I haven't done any independent studies or anything like that, but yeah. You know, it makes sense to me. It sounds like even a little corrupt just like speaking about it, but you know, somebody would like to say, cause it adds to the economy, like real estate, the businesses, you're going to be adding jobs and housing and et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, at the end of the day, you know, keeping the rich richer is something that the government has an interest in. James: So, yeah. I mean, this is one of the secrets that when I was working W2 and I didn't know about it and I didn't know how much, you know, it impacts your savings, your tax savings. Right? So it becomes a huge fact if you're able to depreciate to get some tax savings in and it's all on paper. There's no real stuff that's being depreciated. And real estate is a huge beneficiary of this depreciation, right? Yonah: Exactly. James: So what is the reason why land can't be depreciated? Yonah: So I guess because land never really goes away. And land is kind of a constant status. So, you know, you buy a property and the property...see, it's interesting, this schedule that the IRS set up, that all stuff and we're going to talk about cost segregation, breaking those things down into different categories and different schedules. You know, each type of asset has a different lifespan. And there are so many different categories, right? So you have stuff that fits into a 39-year category, stuff that fits into a 27 and a half your category, you have 20 years, 15 years, you know, 10 years, seven-year and all of these different things. And there are lists, you know, in each one of these categories, the land is the one thing that's constant that you know, it's always going to have value regardless. And when you buy a property, even the tax assessor, the county assessors are going to understand that you're buying land and you're buying the improvements on that land. And the improvements can include, buildings, it can include landscaping, it can include the personal property that we're going to break down further with a cost SEG. But yeah, land is just one of those constants that don't change. You can't write that off. James: Okay. Okay. I'm just thinking about whether... I mean maybe people don't like land. Maybe the people in Congress don't like land. That's why they say, okay, forget about land, let's go and do the building. Yonah: Maybe it's also because I mean if you think about it, the fact that we're paying property tax on our land is really an admission to the fact that the County really owns the land. Meaning we're really just renting the land in a way. Even though you own a property and you own that and you have the title to that property, but how can the County like tax you on it? Because you know, at the end of the day it's still part of that County, right? It's still part of that governance. And so maybe that's why you don't actually get the tax write off for something that, you know, in all intents and purposes is only being kind of lease from you. James: Got it. Makes sense. Usually, have, when I look at the County records and we land and implement improvements, the building is on top of the land, right? So usually - I don't know, I'm so well-well-versed with Texas, I'm not sure about other States - but usually, it's like 80 or 90% is the building and 10% to 20% is the land. Is that generic across all the States? Yonah: I'd say it's pretty average. Like meaning the national average. However, there are places where the land is going to be valued at a much higher level. For example, California is crazy. I mean the land values in California, I've seen up to 60% like literally, which is crazy. So obviously, the more the land value is, the less the improvements made, the less you can actually depreciate if you're basing that ratio. So yeah, so in certain cities like New York City also, like sometimes the land value is going to be higher, just because like that land is worth a lot more. James: Oh, it's worth a lot more and you can't depreciate, which is the absolute reason why everybody should invest in Texas and Florida at mid-city, not in the coastal side of it because the land is more expensive and they don't really give any depreciation schedule. That's a really good point. I never really thought about that. So yeah, that's another reason why, you know, people should be investing in places where the land is more expensive. I mean it's like 50% right off the hole. Okay. Interesting. So coming back to, you know, can you define how does depreciation gives a tax benefit for an investor in real estate? Yonah: So again, depreciation is a write off, right? Income tax, write off. Income tax write off means if you make $100,000, normally you're going to be taxed on that $100,000. If your tax rate is, you know, 39%, you've got to pay $39,000 to the government. Depreciation is the deduction so also, you know, if you have kids, there are all sorts of deductions that you can take. But depreciation is just a deduction right off the top. So let's say your depreciation deduction from your property is $50,000. So guess what? That's you just cut your income tax liability in half. So now you're only going to have to pay taxes on the 50,000 because 50,000 was your deduction. If you took that off your income tax liability, you're left with 50,000 to pay tax on, you're going to only have to pay 19 and a half instead of 39. James: Got it. So I mean, for the audience who's listening, I mean, in real estate you know, I mean in general, in investment real estate, there are two worlds; one is the investment world and the other one's the tax world. So whatever we are talking right now is what happens in the tax world, right? In the investment world, of course, you get the cash flow and you're going to spend it, right? It's like normal. You're not losing money, right? Whereas the tax world, the IRS tax code is meant to incentivize a lot of real estate investors. So they do this virtual depreciation, which is basically you're not really losing money, but they're saying you're losing money on paper and they say you are basically not paying taxes for that income. Yonah: Right, right. Which is crazy. In my opinion, this is probably one of the craziest rules in the tax code. To trump that - not to use any puns or anything like that - To trump that rule is the real estate professional status. Which is crazy. I mean, these rules are just, they're made for the wealthy. James: The ones who invest in real estate, I would say. Right. So let's go back to a lot more details into this depreciation, which is getting a write off on a yearly basis. And so, whatever cash flow we get, let's say your depreciation's more than cash flow, you're basically not paying taxes on it. Yonah: Exactly. Exactly. And that's really going to be the goal. And that's one of the things that cost segregation, right? And the bonus depreciation especially can help to accomplish that. Whatever cashflow that you have, whatever income that you're making, it's, hopefully, going to be tax-free income. James: So however, I mean on every year you're taking depreciation but when you sell, you're still doing a depreciation recapture. So can you explain to me how this whole, whatever you took in the past, let's say five years, you're recapturing it back on a sale? Was the whole benefit was just pushed to the sale or what happened? Yonah: All right, so a few things happen when you sell property. Number one thing happens, there's capital gains tax, which means if you made a profit on that sale, right? You bought it for a hundred, sold it for 200 you got a gain. You have to pay tax on that gain. There's also something called depreciation recapture tax. Okay. And again, this is tax, it's not recapturing and you're not paying back, you're just being taxed on the amount of depreciation that you took over the course of ownership. So there are different rates at which that depreciation recapture is taxed at. One rate is commonly capped at 25%. That's like at the capital gains rate, which is for real property, which is for the real estate. However, there is another rate which is going to be taxed at ordinary income rates, which is on a personal property, which is stuff that we're taking with the cost of depreciation but a lot of people don't think about and it's actually taxed at a higher rate and you're taking it more upfront. What ended up happening is, just to break it down very simply, we're taking huge deductions in their early years of ownership so that we're basically tax-free. Yes, that does mean that when it comes time to sell, we're going to get hit with tax on the backend. But in the interim, in that meantime, from the time you bought it until the time you sold it, hopefully, all of that money you're keeping cash-free and assume it's tax-free, that cash is now worth a lot more. This is called the time value of money. It's worth a lot more because you can now use it, you can reinvest it, you can make more compound interest on that money then having to pay it later on. Also, it's your money. So there's this kind of misconception - I'm just going to digress here for a second. I'll come back to the depreciation recapture tax. There's a misconception that you have to pay taxes. And I think this comes to us from being in the corporate world where we get our paycheck and taxes are automatically deducted as if it's not our money. So real estate is a way that we're making money, all that cash flow, but we're not taking off the top to give to Uncle Sam. We're keeping as much as we can because it's your money. It's not money you have to pay tax on. You only have to pay tax when you have that tax liability. When you have to pay. But if you have more deductions then it's your money to keep. Yes. So part of the real strategy, real estate is kind of differing, pushing off to a later date. And one of the reasons why that is is because there are other strategies down the road that can help to negate that taxes as well. So it's better to pay fewer taxes now and deal with it later because later on, you may have other strategies on sale that you wouldn't have had now upfront. And one of those things is a 1031 exchange, which you can now defer capital gains tax and you can differ the depreciation recapture tax also. There's another strategy that is less known but probably more powerful than a 1031 exchange. And this is called the partial asset disposition, which allows you to claim a lesser value on property that you dispose of because it has less value than it did when you bought it. Okay. Which means like this, if I bought a property for...and it comes in specifically with personal property. So your furniture; let's say you buy this table, this desk I'm sitting at, it costs $10,000. Now, I bought it for $10,000 in five years from now if I'm depreciating it, on a five-year schedule and with cost segregation, then really this has zero tax value. It's no longer, on paper, it's no longer worth anything, right, James? James: Yep, absolutely. Yonah: When I sell this table with this desk, I can actually write on a tax form that I am disposing of this personal property. It no longer has value to me. Maybe it has $100, something minimal, just nominal. Now I only pay the depreciation recapture tax on what's left on the remaining $100 value. So again, this only can happen when you're selling a property. This is only something or you're disposing of it. If you also renovate it, you can write that off also. But this only happens....understand that this is a strategy that we can only take later on. James: Oh, okay. So what you're saying is even though you have depreciated 100% on top of like taking like 25% of that 100% at sale, now instead of paying 25% recapture, maybe the recapture amount as much lower because some of the things you can say, Hey, this is completely useless right now. Yonah: Even though it's not. But from a tax perspective, it is because you've depreciated it. It's already been used now. So that means even on the depreciation recapture tax at a later date can actually be pushed off. I'll mention another great strategy, which is if you're a real estate professional and now you can use your depreciation or your losses to offset your active income as well. Once you've offset that active income, you can now use that to offset other taxes like capital gains tax or depreciation recapture tax. So for goodness sakes, if you have huge losses from this property and then you go and sell the property, guess what? You may actually be able to negate all of the tax that would have come from the losses themselves. James: Absolutely. I mean that's what we do, right? So as an elected professional, right. And that's what most of the people who are doing a large real estate transaction, including a lot of people in Congress, is doing. It's all meant to reduce their taxes or pay no taxes or defer it for later on time. But I want to understand one thing, I want to understand one thing. So at a sale, from what I know, you have to do a 25% recapture. But you say that 25% recapture that's also another part of the recapture, which is at a different rate level. Can you explain what is the 25% recapture and what is the other part and how do you split within these two? Yonah: Yeah, without getting too complicated, because there are actually different, there's like sliding scales and there are different rates involved. But generally speaking, there's what's called the unrealized gain, the depreciation recapture on the property itself, which you haven't appreciated and so that's on a 25%. And then you have personal property, which is on the ordinary income rate. James: Okay. And when you talk about personal property, can you give some examples of what does that personal property...like say for an apartment, in a multifamily building. Yonah: Right. So, again, if you're doing cost segregation, basically anything that you're segregating out you know, most of that stuff falls into the personal property category. So, you know, cabinets, carpeting, fixtures, appliances, all that stuff. James: Oh, got it. Got it. So, okay, we're going to go to cost segregation, then hopefully, it will be more clear. So all these times we only talk about depreciation, which is fundamental things in the whole tax incentive for real estate, right? So now, comes what you call the B grade, I guess. Right? And earlier we were like at a C grade, now we're at the B grade and we're going to go to the A-grade, which is bonus depreciation. Let's talk about B grade. What is cost segregation and how does it fall on top of depreciation? Yonah: Oh yeah. It's not really on top of, what it's doing is separating out the property into these different lives. So if we go back to our original example, the depreciation you're getting, you're able to write off the entire value of the building over a 27 and a half year span for apartments. For other commercials, it's on a 39-year schedule. That means you buy a property for $1 million, you can now write off, subtract some for land, 10%, 20% for land, and then the remaining $800-900,000, you can now write off as a tax, write off a paper loss a little bit every single year. Cost segregation allows, according to the tax code, you can have an engineer come to the property and actually allocate every tiny detail of that property into different categories which depreciate on faster scales, on faster rates. So you have stuff that depreciates on a five-year schedule, as I mentioned, all that personal property, furniture, fixtures, appliances, carpet and cabinets, all that stuff; if you put on a five year schedule, that means that you can literally take and write that entire value off, take as a tax deduction in those first five years instead of lumping it all together. With the entire million dollars, you're going to take 20%, let's say $200,000 and now, take that as a write off in the first five years. James: Got it. Got it. So just to give some education for the audience. So depreciation on real estate, especially on residential real estate is usually it goes across 27.5 years. And then what you're saying, cost segregation, they say, Oh, not everything in this building is 27.5 now we have windows, we have appliances, we have carpet, which we want to depreciate, for example, in five years. Then that's driveway where they say, Oh, it's seven-year depreciation. And then I can't remember what's the 15 years, can you give me some examples? Yonah: Right. 15 years is going to be anything that's considered land improvements. And land improvements includes landscaping, asphalt, parking lots, anything outside of the property that's not considered land, but like fencing, if you have a swimming pool, all that stuff, the concrete, all of that is on a 15-year schedule. James: Got it. So they split it into five, seven, 15 and they start depreciating. So very interesting. So does it matter whether you are doing this cost segregation on a major rehab project; with this project, there's no rehab? Yonah: You can definitely get more benefits when you're doing a rehab. Because when you are adding any money to the property, that money being added in the capital expenditures, it's going to be added to that basis. Meaning added to the books and now going to depreciate that amount of money as well because that's going into the property. So, again, if you bought this building for $1 million and then you went and added another $500,000 in renovations, that $500,000 now gets depreciated as well. So you can cost segregate that as well and break that up into the different components. James: Oh, interesting. I didn't know that. I mean we do a lot of rehab projects and I just never understood whether we should do more rehab will be better. But what do you think just increases the value and you get a bigger depreciation compared to... Yonah: And not only that, we're not going to get ahead of ourselves cause now we're not at the A level yet, we're going to come back to that. You can do the bonus depreciation on the rehab as well. James: Got it. Got it. So very interesting. So does it matter if I buy a small 50 units and depreciate versus buying 300 units and depreciate for any investors in these deals? Yonah: You know, what do you mean 'does it matter'? James: Well, I mean whether you get more benefit out of it or not. I mean, let's say, you invest 100,000 into this deal, does it matter if I invest 100,000 into small 50 units versus putting 100,000 and do 300 units? Yonah: It's going to be pretty much within the same scale because multifamily properties in general if they're the same type of style, the percentages are going to be pretty similar within a window. So anywhere between, I'd say, 20 to 35% is going to be your general cost segregation, the reallocation of the assets, the faster lives. So you know, there are going to be, each property is going to be different, but generally speaking, it's going to be pretty similar. James: Okay. So it's basically based on percentage and the scale. Yonah: Right. James: Okay. I never understood that. Yonah: So if it was a million-dollar property and you're putting $100,000, you have 10%. If it's a $10 million property, you put 100,000, your percentage of ownership is going to be a lot less. James: Correct. Correct. Yeah. Because I have some investors who say, I only invest in 300 plus unit and I never understand why. So, because sometimes, I mean, a lot of times on a smaller property makes a lot more money. And sometimes they just want to do the bigger one. So I always think that there must be some kind of tax benefit that they're doing it. But at the end of the day it's just a percentage of whatever equity that you are getting. Yonah: Correct. James: Got it. Got it. So is there any tips and tricks for multifamily investors or any value add investors when they're rehabbing their project? For example, I met someone the other day where they say you are able to write off the address plate of a unit. Like, say unit one or two. If that address plate is on a metal, they say that you can write it off as part of tax depreciation. Whereas if you go and you know, put a sticker or coughed out the number, you're not able to, that was a huge thing for me. Is that true? I mean, do you get some kind of benefit when you do that? Yonah: I mean that is true. Again, that's part of the five-year assets that engineers could come and recognize what that is. And there are tons of things like that. You know, whether it's going to be what type of flooring you're putting in. James: Okay, let's go into that flooring. What flooring will give you the biggest bonus? Yonah: Alright. So carpeting is five-year property. Vinyl flooring is a five-year property. But if you're going to do real tiles, for example, that's considered actually part of the structure so it's going to one of the 27 and a half year component. James: So doing carpet and vinyl would be beneficial than in tiles in cost segregation/depreciation (?) Yonah: Much more. Yeah. Cause that's actually one of the high-value components if you think about it in each unit. Like, think about how much you spend on flooring. James: Yeah, absolutely. Flooring is one of the biggest expenses, especially on a major rehab. So that's a really good benefit that I never really thought of because I do have properties with tiles and I would think about converting it. And, of course, we don't do it for the sake of getting depreciation but it's just a bonus, I guess. What else is there that comes out to you that you think, Hey, to get these small benefits of depreciation, you guys should look at that. What else is in a value-add rehab? Yonah: Mmm.. James: What about appliances? White versus black appliances, does it matter versus stainless steel? Yonah: Always go with the black. James: It looks better, depreciates more. No, I'm just joking. Yonah: Yeah. I would say just be studious. Be careful with what you're spending. Make sure that, you want to consult a tax advisor who is savvy in this area because you may be leaving a lot of money on the table. You may be leaving huge tax deductions that you may be able to get. And one of the great things about depreciation is that again, we're taking the right off of the entire value of the property, even if you didn't even spend that from your own pocket. Meaning you took that on a loan, you took leverage to buy that property. The bank's money you get the tax write off for, James: Oh, that's awesome. Yonah: You think about it, you buy a million dollar property, you put down, maybe 200-250 your own money, but you're getting a tax write off of $1 million, which is crazy. So too with the construction, with the renovations, you may get 100% financing for those construction costs and you can write the entire thing off as a tax write off. James: Got it. Got it. That's very interesting. So let me ask you one more thing though. If I have a choice, for example, a roof, it's part of the structure, right? So if I have a choice to ask the seller to replace the roof before we close on the deal or should I do it after we close on the deal? Does it make a difference in terms of who gets the depreciation? Yonah: I mean, obviously, not from a depreciation standpoint per se because either way, you're going to get the deduction because if you buy the property, you're buying the roof as well as part of the property. If you then go and spend your money, then it's money that you're spending from your own money or from the bank's money, whatever, and then you're going to depreciate that as well. So the roof happens to be part of a structural component, which is not gonna be eligible for bonus depreciation or you know, cost segregation, it's just going to be part of the main structure of the building, which depreciates at a later time. So it's not necessarily something that's going to get more more benefit per se. James: Unless the roof is increasing your price at closing. I guess, right? Yonah: Obviously, right. And if you have you deferred maintenance on that end that you can benefit from. James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. A lot of strategies that we can do when we're doing a value-add project. Which I think is important to understand because some things can make a lot of difference in terms of your tax benefit. So I want to go a bit more detailed into the five, seven and 15 years, right? So because of this, let's say you're depreciating a lot of the five years, a depreciation on max later schedule, right? And let's say you keep this property for two years, right? After two years you decided, okay, I'm going to sell it off versus keeping it more than around five years, right? So what's the benefit? What's the threshold of benefits of that depreciation versus depreciation recapture that you are getting on how long you hold the property? Yonah: Again, the threshold when you're going to look at property to property on an individual basis you really have to kind of look at it in a bubble and it's difficult to do. I mean, you may want to do that because the investors are involved, et cetera, in that regard. But even before I answer that, I like to just kind of take a step back and realize that the real benefit of real estate is when you're going to be constantly buying more, right? Because whatever's going to happen to this property, the taxes in this one can potentially be deferred and be pushed off with the next property I buy. And so, that's a viable strategy. Again, we also have to take a step forward and look at each property on an individual level as if like, this is the only property I'm ever going to buy. And so if that being said, if it's the only property you're only gonna buy, so you have to see, is this going to benefit me? If I hold this for two years, I'm going to take this depreciation upfront and therefore I'm going to get the tax free cash flow in the first two years. And then when I sell, I'm going to have higher taxes to pay then. So again, that calculation is going to obviously going to come up at that point. I would say that you should really take that into consideration. You know, if you're going to have two years old versus a three-year-old, or a five-year-old again, the cash flow is the main key to this puzzle. And then, if you are refinancing, which is another possibility, then that money coming from the refinance is also tax-free. It's not a taxable event, which means that that money that's coming back to your investors, which you may decide to pay out proceeds from the refinance to the investors, will actually increase their returns as well. So it's all part of like a bigger calculation. James: Okay. Awesome. So let's go to number A, the king of depreciation now, which was because of the introduction of the tax act 2017. The introduced bonus depreciation for used property. So usually bonus depreciation is only built for new properties, right? So can you explain how that was born and what's the motivation behind it and how does it work to become A grade depreciation? Yonah: Yeah, so bonus depreciation, 100% bonus depreciation I should say, you know, came about on used property. That means that it used to be only if you built a new building. You did new construction, you were able to take a tax write off of the depreciation of anything that depreciates under a 20-year schedule. So again, that goes back to all this stuff. We're going to segregate, the cost segregation, the 15-year land improvements, the five-year assets, which are all personal property, et cetera. All of that stuff can now be eligible for bonus depreciation. Now, when you're doing a new build, it used to be only 50% of that. I mean, you could take a 50% in the first year, you could take a deduction of that depreciation. Then came the new tax code and said not only to 50, we're going to move it to 100%, which means you can take 100% of all of that depreciation and write it off in the first year. Okay. And used property, meaning even if it's an old property, you're buying it for the first time. So this is really going to take depreciation to a whole new level. It's going to take the first year, you know, instead of like on that million-dollar property, instead of a $30,000 tax write off for regular depreciation. And then you're gonna move it up with regular cost segregation, maybe to 60 or 70,000, comes bonus depreciation and potentially you're going to get like a $200-250,000 write off. James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And what's the motivation of the government passing this tax law? If you know. Yonah: I didn't come here to discuss politics. James: Okay. We have to get away from that. So there must be some reason. Yonah: I think it has to do with the stimulation of the economy, right? The more tax write-offs, the more money can go back into investing, creating jobs, create more housing, et cetera, et cetera. James: But it's limited until 2023 if I'm not mistaken. And after that from 100% becomes, I can't remember, 50%? Yonah: It goes to 80% and starts phasing out every year until it's gone. James: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah, I mean it's surprising for me because I did a lot of bonus depreciation for most of my properties. I think all of it is last year and everybody like almost like right off their capital. And when they looked at their K1 and everybody was surprised that, I mean a lot of people understood what it is, but there were a lot of new people who are asking me, what happened to my money? Did you disappear? Absolutely. Everybody was asking for it because a lot of them got like almost 90 to 100% write off. And I had to explain to them about the bonus depreciation and all that. So yeah, I'm going to be doing a webinar soon, I think, in the next few weeks. I'm not sure when is this episode going to be aired. Probably we'll pass the webinar, but if any of you are interested in getting that webinar link to register, cause I'm going to get a CPA to translate all this bonus depreciation into how passive investors will get the benefit out of it because there's a lot of ethicalities when it comes to tax codes. And I want to get a CPA who specializes in real estate professionals and how does this whole thing benefits everybody in investing in real estate, including passive investors who are not real estate professionals. Cause a lot of times real estate professionals, well understood, but people didn't want to know how does passive investors get the benefit out of real estate investing. All of that will be in the webinar, it's going to be a very interesting webinar. So can you tell our audience how to get all of you? Yonah: The best way to find me is actually LinkedIn. That's my home base. That's where I hang out and spend most of my time. But seriously, you can reach me, my email is a great way to contact me, YWeiss@madisonspecs.com. So SPECS is actually an acronym for specialized property engineering cost segregation. So that's our firm. And yeah, especially if you have a property you're looking at and you want to see what the potential benefits would be, we do an upfront analysis so you can just kind of see what those numbers, the potential tax benefits would be. Whether you're under a contract with a property that bought a property, owned property for years, you can see that. So yeah, happy to do that and please connect with me on LinkedIn. James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And before I let you go, when is the best time for someone to engage cost segregation firm? Is it before they go under contract? When they're looking at a deal after they close on the deal? Yonah: Usually you know, after they close is the best, I mean to engage, obviously you can reach out to me for that estimate. Even when you're under contract, it's probably the best time, but you know, you're wanting to get it done if you need it in the first year, which not everyone needs it in the first year. You may buy a property that's totally not profitable, you have no income. You don't need this. But yeah, if you want to get it done in the first year, the sooner the better. Because again, you need this for your tax filing and especially if you have investors, you can just send out K1, you need to get that out earlier on the year. The sooner the better, you can get it done. James: Oh, interesting. I usually start the first year itself, but what you're saying is when you need the depreciation, I guess. So, yeah, absolutely. Awesome. Yonah, very nice to have you on our show and I learned a lot and I'm sure our audience learned a lot. We go so much into the detail of, you know, one of the biggest benefit of investing real estate on top of the cash flow that you get. So the depreciation and the cost seg, and now the A-class depreciation of bonus depreciation. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Yonah: Thank you, James. It was my pleasure and we will see you soon. James: Absolutely. Thank you.

James:  Hi audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value and Real Estate Investing Podcast. I'm excited to let you guys know that last week we had Mark Kenny from King Multifamily and we discussed a lot of interesting stuff about some of the different markets that he's been buying. They have been buying like in five different markets. Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, Texas, and Florida. And it's very interesting to see, apart from Texas and Florida, which are, you know, more popular markets and how do they underwrite deals in Alabama and how they underwrite deals in Tennessee, you know. So it's a very interesting episode, I would encourage you guys to listen to that as well.    This week we have Scott Hendricks from Current Investment LLC. Scott is a wealth manager and we're going to be covering different topics such as a DST or Delaware Statutory Trust, which is another alternative for 1031 exchange. You're going to be talking some things about 1031 exchange. And we're also going to be talking about qualified opportunity zones investments and some of the broker-dealer licensing such as series seven licensing, which is really important for people who want to raise money using broker-dealer license. Hey Scott, welcome to the show.   Scott: Hi James. Thank you very much.   James: Awesome. Awesome. So did I miss out anything? Do you want to fill in the introduction with anything else that I missed out about yourself?   Scott: No, I, I appreciate that. I have been an Austin based wealth manager, financial advisor for about eight years now. I have a series seven, which is the general securities license and I have a series 66, which is called a combined uniform state license. I also am licensed with my clients in California and Arizona and Wyoming in addition to Texas. And I am affiliated with a broker-dealer firm known as Kelton and Associates. They're based in Tampa, Florida. But my business current investments are based right here in Austin.   James: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome. I really want to quickly get into the series seven being a broker-dealer because there's a lot of capital out there. There are very, very few deals nowadays. And what's happening is a lot of people trying to raise money, you know trying to be a money raiser, but there's a lot of advice that's coming from the SEC attorneys that, you know, you have to do it the right way. And there's a lot of discussion about why not I become a broker-dealer? So can you define what is a broker-dealer, which is basically a licensed person who's allowed to legally raise money? What is a broker-dealer?   Scott: Sure. So a broker-dealer in my case is basically the...I think of it as kind of my back office. The back office that supports registered representatives like me with performing my transactions for my clients, maintaining regulatory oversight and supervision of my activities, ensuring that I receive ongoing training. They handle the registrations with the government entities that oversee all securities business in this country. And you're correct, there are a wide range of licenses that govern various aspects of all of this activity. They are now regulated by an organization known by its acronym, FINRA, which is simply the financial industry, regulatory authority and finra.org is the website where anyone who would be interested in learning about these licenses or possibly even obtaining one of these licenses could go and look at the menu of the different licenses that FINRA overseas. Some of which are for broker-dealers, some of which are for general securities representatives like myself, some of which govern the transacting in your liquid securities and private placements, which are often the kinds of opportunities that I believe you're describing where it is necessary to raise funds.    I don't remember the specific numbers of all of those licenses. There are about two dozen types of licenses that FINRA supervises. And I would encourage your audience if they were interested to learn more about that to go to FINRA, finra.org.   James: Got it. So how difficult is it to get a series seven license? I mean how long does it take? How difficult is the exam? What do you need to be good at kind of thing? Can you explain?   Scott: Well, you know, interestingly I got my license eight years ago. I know some things have changed as far as the cost. The costs have gone up a little bit. They're still reasonable. Most of these licenses can be obtained for a few hundred dollars, a filing fee, purchasing the study materials, scheduling the exam. I would say the process takes anywhere from three to six months. There are no prerequisites so you do not have to have a finance degree from college, you don't have to work in the financial industry. You can simply if you purchase the application for the license, study the material, take the test and pass the test, you'll obtain one of these licenses.   James: So do you need to know a lot of financial terms? Is there a lot of math? Is that calculus involved?   Scott: I wouldn't have passed if there was very much calculus. No, there's no need to know a lot of math. It certainly helps to be familiar with, I would say intermediate financial concepts. Certainly, basic concepts like, you know, interest compounding, time of the value of money cost basis, rates of return; fundamental financial concepts that anyone who wishes to invest or is already an investor should be familiar with. But there's no set list of previous academic or experience requirements that one must have before taking one of these FINRA exams.   James: Got it. So basically the cost is less than a thousand dollars. You say $300 eight years ago.   Scott: Again, I'm a little out of date, but I would say yes, you can still apply for any of these federal licenses for less than I would even say, you know, three to $500.   James: Got it. Got it. And so you say three to six months you go to the exam, it's not that difficult, you need to know basic financial concepts, which I think is important. You're going to be advising people about their money and what's the rate of return.   Scott: It's a designed course of study to maintain the credibility of the industry, the level of professionalism and the basic knowledge base that the regulatory bodies in this country want professionals to maintain for the benefit of their clients.   James: So when you are taking a series seven and becoming a broker-dealer, why would one person want to be a broker-dealer?   Scott: If you want to oversee agents, if you want to essentially work with a group of agents, representatives, who will assist you in putting together investment opportunities and seeking investors, seeking clients, raising funds a broker deal or license, which I'm going to go out on a limb and say a broker-dealer license is probably more difficult to obtain, a little bit higher barrier because of that nature. That a broker-dealer is more of an office in charge of a number of representatives who then go into the field and work directly with clients.   James: So are you saying broker-dealer has someone under them who works with the clients?   Scott: They could. There's no reason why a broker-dealer could also not be an individual as well. But it is a different level of licensing required to have broker-dealer credentials than it is to have securities representative or securities agent credentials as I do.   James: Oh, got it. Got it. So series seven will get you into the securities agent level and there's another level where you're to become a broker-dealer, I guess.   Scott: That's reasonably accurate. Yes. So series seven, again, a series seven is called general securities license that enables me, authorizes me to transact in marketable securities for individual clients or businesses. So I am authorized to recommend and Franz deck that is initiate the buying and selling of stocks, bonds, mutual funds, exchange-traded funds, registered private placements and in that last case to accredited investors. So it opens up a range of investment transactions that I am authorized to both recommend to clients and then assist them in transacting in those assets. A broker-dealer could essentially be in a position to put together deals, to put together or review outside deals that then they would approve an authorized to their representatives to go out and seek investors, recommend them to investors   James: Got it. Great. I think the structure is similar to like in real estate agent versus broker, either the broker has somebody working for them.   Scott: I wish I thought of that. That's a great analogy. I think that's very comparable. Yes.   James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So I didn't even know that; I thought broker-dealer is a person, I mean, can be a person, but it's usually like a company where a lot of agents work for them and these agents get the series seven licensing. Okay. Got it. Got it. So I presume if you want to do fundraising for your lifetime, then you want to get a series seven licensing and be part of a broker-dealer.    Scott: You know, I would advise anyone interested in being licensed in the securities industry to get a series seven. The series seven is almost the gateway licensed to a range of other licenses. Some of these other licenses do require that the individual have a series seven as a prerequisite. And as I mentioned earlier, there are licenses that are specific to illiquid private placement types of investments. So if I was interested only in raising money for let's say for startups or for venture funds or for passive real estate portfolios or deals, I would encourage that person to go get the series seven but then also look for one of the more specific licenses that delve more deeply into the specialized knowledge required for those kinds of specialized  investments tailored to the accredited investor.    James: Oh, got it. So series seven is just basic and then there's a lot more specific to the niche, I guess.   Scott: Yes. Now, the series seven enables me to do both, but the accredited investor deals that I am able to recommend to clients must first be approved by my broker-dealer.    James: Okay, got it. Got it.    Scott: If I had one of these more specialized licenses, I might be able to go out and self approve or do my own independent due diligence and then recommend a particular investment to an accredited investor.    James: Got it.    Scott: As such, right now I need to go to my broker-dealer and say, Hey, here's a good deal. It looks like it would be right for one or several of my clients. And then asked my broker-dealer to scrub it, do their due diligence and then if they approve it, I would be authorized to go raise funds for it.    James: Got it. Got it. So if one of our audience who wants to raise money for commercial real estate, you know, as syndication or multifamily, so they can get a series seven license and go and work for a broker-dealer.  And in that while they work, they can propose to raise money on specific multifamily or any other commercials syndication, I guess to the broker-dealer and the broker-dealer needs to approve that, then he can go and raise money for that part of their syndication. Okay. Got it.    And I mean, if it's not confidential, do we know how do these agents get compensated in terms of percentage? What is that range if it's not confidential?    Scott: No, it's not really confidential. In my case, it's not confidential. In fact, it all has to be completely transparent and disclosed to the investor. So, for example, on a non traded REIT,  if I was to recommend a real estate investment trust to a client that had previously been approved by my broker-dealer, I would earn a commission. In most cases where the investment is illiquid, I'm not gonna put that into a fee-based account. It's a standalone transaction that might complement that particular investor's portfolio. If they agree, I would disclose my commission and my commission generally runs between about four to 6% on the deal. Again, it's very comparable to what a real estate agent might earn on the sale of a property. But I'll disclose my commission, if the investor wishes to proceed, then I'll help them invest and I'll earn a commission on that transaction.   James: So four to 6% of the money being invested, is that right?   Scott: Correct.   James: Got it. Got it.   Scott: You know, four to 6% of the investor's contribution I would earn as a commission, a percentage of that, I would share with my broker-dealer, my back office. The way we think about it with these securitized real estate deals is if you invest $100, you know, $94 of your investment goes into the ground.   James: Got it. Yeah, I understand.   Scott: You know, approximately a 6% sort of transactional cost. Speaker: Got it. And do you get paid in the beginning or do you get at the end or during the transaction or how does that..?   Scott: It really varies depending on how the deal is structured. It really varies. In many cases, my commission will be earned upfront, but there are certain deals where, where my commission may be considerably less upfront but I'll get an annual payout over the life of the time that the investor holds that deal. It really just depends from a deal to deal.   James: And it's a one time commission. Right? That's it. Right?      Scott: In most cases.    James: Yeah. So I think what some people are doing is basically they're getting a GP percentage, which can be a lifetime, I mean, of that investment. But this is slightly different. Did you get a commission flat fee of 4-6% in the beginning? I mean, not at the beginning, in most cases.    Scott: Right. Yeah. Most of my business James is fee-based portfolio management. So I may work with a client who has a portfolio of stocks and bonds and I'll earn a percentage of that account value over the time that I manage it on behalf of my client. It's in these cases of the one time a private placement transaction like a REIT or a Delaware statutory trust, where I'll simply earn a one-time commission. And then the investor will then own a passive property, a passive asset that will generate passive income for that client. But if they also have hired me so to speak or work with me to manage their other portfolio, that may be on more of a percentage-based or a fee-based relationship.   James: Got it. Got it. So is it public information on which agent or which broker-dealer is doing better than others like the stock market, in terms of performing for their clients or is it all private?   Scott: You know, that's one of those questions that can always only be answered with the words 'It depends.' It's really difficult when you come down to investing for individuals and let's say for business owner clients to compare performance. Because each and every investor has so many different goals and different risk tolerances and different timelines that it makes it very difficult. It really is apples and oranges to compare the performance of an entire book of business; either held by an advisor like me or overseen by a broker-dealer. It almost makes no sense to try to compare rates of return or performance simply because each and every investor has a unique objective.   James: Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. I mean, that's a really good comment. I mean, returns are one thing, right? But risk profile off the investors and you know, how risky is the deal itself is another factor. And everybody has their own taste or flavor that they want to take on when they want to invest. So, awesome. Awesome. And why does an equity investor want to come to a broker-dealer versus going to a private syndication model and invest privately?   Scott: I think a lot of it has to do with the extra risk that you are mitigating by looking for investments that have already been registered with the securities and exchange commission and have been scrubbed; that is, have been researched thoroughly by a professional organization. And you know, there are certain things like just the credibility of the track record of successful deals that it has offered to clients that have exited; all the kinds of things you might look into with a private syndication deal. But for some investors that extra assurance of knowing that it has met the registration requirements of the securities and exchange commission and has been scrubbed and approved by a registered and licensed broker-dealer.   James: Got it. Got it.   Scott: That basically, that does that for a living. That does it, you know, hundreds of times a year looks at deal, memoranda and all of the documentation that goes into assuring investors that the deal is sound. And while you can never completely eliminate risk in any deal, I think that there's a certain risk premium that is reduced with registered and professionally researched opportunities.   James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Although I think I want to just clarify one thing. So usually the investor's equity is paid out of their equity, right? I mean the broker-dealer or the agent fees in this model are paid out of the equity. Whereas in the syndication model, a lot of times people who you know will become part of the GPS as one of the functions to raise money. They get the money from the GP, not from the passive investor. So that's one big distinction, right, because...   Scott: It is, that's correct. That's correct.   James: It makes a difference as well. So, in terms of the profile of customers who come and look for broker-dealers and agents who work with broker-dealers, I mean, is it like a lot of family offices, a lot of institutions, or is it a lot of private equity investors? How would you say in terms of percentage?   Scott: I think the answer is yes. And again, every wealth manager's business is different. In my case, I primarily work in the area of regulation D filed, liquid or a passive real estate and other types of deals. I generally am working with high net worth individuals.   James: Okay.   Scott: High net worth investors who are accredited and are simply looking to add or complement their existing portfolio with passive income through real estate, through business development companies. I also transact in oil and gas, master limited partnerships. So it's the investor in my case who is looking to diversify our portfolio and derive passive income at a rate that is more favorable than they would get in the bond market these days or certainly more favorable than they would get in something like a bank insurance CD or savings account. And perhaps doesn't have the inclination or the experienced to go in and evaluate real estate from private syndication that others might feel that they do have. So I'm able to offer for the less experienced real estate investor, the kinds of opportunities to derive passive income without the expertise that it might take to evaluate a syndication deal.     James: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. Yeah. The professionalism, of course, makes a lot of difference compared to someone you know, coming on from a weekend boot camp. So very interesting. So, yeah, I mean that's really good.   Scott: There are always different paths.    James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And so coming back to 1031 and DSTs - Delaware statutory trust. So 1031 is, you know, a lot of people know what 1031; where it's basically an exchange mechanism within real estate to a much larger real estate offer, same kind where someone has to identify like three deals within 45 days of closing of the current deal. And they can defer the capital gain and they can defer the depreciation recapture back to the new deal which they should close within six months. Am I right? Did I miss out some?   Scott: You know, that's pretty good. Everything you said is correct. I would simply add, and the way I like to describe it, a 1031 transaction is it's taking advantage of a section of the tax code and that's all 1031 is. It's simply a section of the internal revenue code that allows a real estate investor to sell a property or multiple properties and exchange the proceeds into other real estate, either a single property or multiple properties that can be either active or passively owned and differ all taxes that might be paid as a result of be the capital gains, depreciation recapture. There are a few other taxes that may come into play. For example, if you're in a state that has a state capital gains tax like California, that can also be deferred under the federal a tax code section 1031. But you're correct about the timelines there.   There are pretty strict timelines that must be met in a 1031. And I often tell groups of real estate agents and investors that 1031 is widely known. A lot of people know about it, but it still kind of has some stigma or some intimidation factor about it that prevents it from being widely used. And so part of what I try to do is help my clients and others understand the 1031 process. The primary thing they're going to gain is what they might have otherwise paid in taxes, they can keep inequity and reinvest into other real estates. You mentioned that in many cases an investor will trade up with the 1031, going into the larger holding in real estate. I also see a lot of clients who spread out their investment and diversify into other classes o rfeal estate or into other geographic areas that they may not have owned previously. So it really is a wonderful way, four real estate investors to both diversify, expand, and differ the tax liability in the process of building a portfolio of real estate.   James: Very interesting. But It's within the real estate asset class, right? Can they go from a real estate, you know, equity a 10 31 into something else other than real estate?   Scott: Not as of the end of 2017. And this is something that may be new to your audience. So with the last tax bill, I think it was called the tax cut and jobs act passed by the government in Washington back at the end of 2017, the rules of 1031 were limited. Whereas, previously investors were able to exchange property in maybe in a non-real estate asset. For example, if you owned a, I like to use the example, if you owned a classic car collection, you could sell your antique automobile and exchange the proceeds into real estate or into more cars or fine jewelry and still do it under section 1031. All of that went away at the end of 2017 and left only real estate tangible property is now the only asset class that can be exchanged under the tax deferral section of 1031.   James: Okay. So that's something new. I didn't even know that previously before 2017 you can exchange from other than real estate to other than real estate even though now you know, we all are real estate people so it's all within real estate, which is good.    Scott: And you also hear another common misconception about 1031. The 10 31 exchange is also sometimes commonly called the like-kind exchange. Like-kind is a phrase that is used in the actual language of the tax code. And a lot of investors, and frankly a lot of real estate agents confuse the phrase like-kind as meaning that if you sell multifamily, you must buy multifamily. Or if you sell a commercial property, you must buy a commercial property. That is not the case. Like-kind is very broadly defined by the IRS. Meaning, if you sell anything that has a physical address, a tangible property, you can buy any other category of tangible property. So if you sell a block of single-family homes that you've held as a rental property, you can go buy a warehouse or if you sell a self-storage property, you can go buy a ranch. So it's really any kind of property. It can be exchanged for any other kind of property,[31:24unclear] since 2017, as long as we're talking real estate.   James: Okay. So let me clarify that because we had some kind of sound issue there. So after 2017 we can go and exchange, even though it says like-kind, but you can go within a different asset class, like buying from single-family to a ranch or from multifamily to single-family. Okay. So if you still within real estate, you are good I guess. Right?    Scott: That's right.    James: Got it, got it. Got it. And I think one of the common strategies that a lot of you know, generational real estate investors use is basically to buy real estate and keep on exchanging until they die. And when they die, they gave it to their kids as a gift and where the cost basis starts all over again. And that's the generational wealth Passover, right? Is that true? I mean, did I say it correctly?   Scott: Yeah, it is. And really the 10 31 exchange is, I believe a terrific way to build a real estate legacy. If the investor has heirs or hopes one day to pass a legacy of real estate on to their heirs, 10 31 exchange is an excellent way to do that. Because as long as you continue to sell and then buy real estate under the rules of section 10 31, there's no limit to the number of times you can do it. And as long as you continue to do it, you have deferred your tax liability each time. If at any time you chose to cash out and simply sell your holdings and take the cash and walk away, you're going to owe the tax and in fact, you're going to owe the cumulative tax that you have been deferring. So there actually is with 10 31 a fairly strong incentive once you've begun the process to just keep doing it.   And if you keep doing it until your time is up and you have heirs waiting in the wings, you will upon the date of death of the original owner, that owner will leave to their heirs a legacy of real estate that upon the date of death is stepped up in cost-basis. That's the term that the auditors use such that the cost-basis will then become equal immediately to the market value as of that point in time. And as I like to say, the heirs, if they don't wish to hold on to the real estate, they conceivably could turn around the day after the funeral and go sell everything and pay virtually nothing in capital gains or depreciation taxes.   James: Got it. So that is an awesome tip there. You can use real estate to not pay tax and make tons of money and, of course, your kids are your heirs, they inherited that and they will make the money. But it's a big way to give your wealth that you have created to your heirs, right. And without paying any taxes   Scott: Right. And, again, it, it would then be up to that next generation whether they want to continue to own that real estate and continue to enjoy the benefits of passive income and all the other benefits of owning real estate in a portfolio. Or as I said earlier, if they chose to get out at that time because of the step-up in cost basis, it would potentially eliminate or virtually eliminate all of the capital gain tax liability.   James: Got it. And also the depreciation recapture, right?   Scott: The appreciation recapture as well. Now of course, if there's an estate tax, depending on the size of the portfolio that is inherited, an estate tax may still come into play. But that's an entirely different situation.   James: Estate tax. Okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. So let's come to DST - Delaware statutory trust. And I know some people say this is similar to 10 31. Can you explain what this and why we should use this compared to the normal 10 31?    Scott: Absolutely. So a Delaware statutory trust is not widely known. I've been familiar with these opportunities for about 4-5 years now and I've spoken to many real estate groups, investor groups, agents, attorneys, CPAs. The Delaware statutory trust, in short, is the only form of passive real estate that is eligible as replacement property in a 10 31 exchange. So let me expand on that. A Delaware trust is often compared to a REIT. It's very different from a REIT in many important ways, but it is a legal form of ownership set up around a property, around a physical property, and then offered to investors who may invest in a fractional percentage of the underlying property via the trust.  Because a Delaware trust must own physical property, the IRS recognizes it as another way an investor could engage in a 10 31 exchange. In other words, the 10 31 is just the process of selling and then swopping or buying other real estates. You could either as an investor buy an active property or properties, you're going to be the landlord and hold the deed and be responsible for the rents and the tenants and the repairs. Or you could own a fractional interest in a Delaware statutory trust. You would be a passive investor. The sponsor of the trust would have all management and landlord responsibilities, but as a fractional investor, you would derive your proportionate share of the income. And because there is underline real property in a Delaware trust, the IRS allows these types of trust as an eligible investment via section 10 31.   And so here's really how it works and this is kind of the main core, I think, of the benefits of the Delaware statutory trust, In section 10 31 exchanges, the investor sells a property that begins, as you alluded to earlier, that begins a 45 day calendar, a 45 day clock. That investor has 45 days to identify, in most cases, up to three properties that they intend to reinvest in. Now, they don't have to invest in all three. They could identify one primary property and two backups or two properties and one backup. But they've got to have those properties identified in the first 45 days.    A Delaware statutory trust makes an excellent backup property because it's passive, for one thing. It's open to investment. It's not going to fall out of escrow during the first 45 days as sometimes real properties do. In other words, it's not going to go off the market. If that were to happen with the investor's primary or secondary property and the deals weren't going to close there, if they have named a Delaware trust as a third or as any of their backup properties, their money could then roll back into that trust as an investment and that would effectively secure their 10 31 transactions from start to finish. So Delaware statutory trust makes great backup properties in that first 45 day identification period.   Secondly, in cases where an investor is selling a property and buying a property for less, or actually buying a less expensive property, maybe a value-add property that they want to improve and they're going to have some leftover cash from the deal that they sold, a Delaware statutory trust makes a great way to capture or invest that leftover cash and still secure 100% of the transaction, the 10 31 transaction, from tax. So as a simple example, if you're selling a million-dollar property and the property you want to buy is 850,000, you've got 150,000 leftover. It might be hard to find another real property for 150,000 in some markets. So a Delaware trust comes along as a great way to park or invest that residual leftover cash securing 100% of the 10 31 proceeds from taxation, at least deferring 100% of the tax liability and giving the investor now two different properties.   One is the primary property for 850 that they wanted to buy and fix up or be the landlord over. The other is the 150,000 fractional interest in a passive investment that they will have no work responsibilities to maintain, but they'll be receiving a passive income from that trust. And then the final way that I think Delaware trusts are powerful is if the investor is simply wishing to continue to own real estate but really wants to get out the landlord business entirely. And that would be someone who maybe has been an active landlord for a better part of their investment career, wishes to continue to hold real estate because it's a great asset. Why not? But doesn't want to be a landlord anymore. So they may sell all of their active real estate properties, declare their intent to do a 10 31 exchange and then pick two or three Delaware statutory trust to put 100% of the proceeds into. They now have switched from being an active to a 100% passive investor.    Someone else does the work of the landlord that is the sponsor of the trust. They began to receive the mailbox money or the passive income, still own real estate as part of their portfolio and they've effectively deferred all of what would have been their tax liability from selling their active holdings. And another wonderful thing about two more points about a Delaware trust. You can do a 10 31 exchange out of a Delaware trust. So when the underlying property in the trust sells, which signals the liquidation of the trust, the investor will be notified with plenty of time. They can then declare another 10 31 and take their proceeds out of the Delaware trust, which may have appreciated over that time and they can take those proceeds and swap them into some other property. They can either go into another trust or they can go back into the active real estate market if they choose to. Or of course they have the option to simply cash out, take the cash, and at that time they would incur the tax liability.    And then the other benefit of a Delaware trust is you do not have to do a 10 31 exchange to invest in a Delaware trust. Delaware statutory trusts are open to cash investors. So it's a good way for an accredited investor, which you must be. In order to invest in a Delaware trust, you must be an accredited investor, but you do not have to be bringing money into the trust via 10 31, you could be a cash investor. But once you're in a Delaware trust as fractional owner with either your cash investment or your 10 31 proceeds, you can then when the trust liquidates do a 10 31 exchange. So a Delaware trust provides a good way for a real estate investor who wishes to be passive, doesn't have a property to sell but wants to in the future be able to do a 10 31 exchange. As long as they've got cash and they are accredited, they can invest in a Delaware trust.    And then you know, three to five to sometimes seven years down the road when the trust liquidates, they'll be eligible to do a 10 31 exchange and defer any potential tax that they might have otherwise paid.   James: Wow. I didn't know so many things about DSTs. This is very eye-opening for me. It's like a syndication but it's a tax-protected syndication, right?   Scott: It's a way to take 10 31 money; money coming out of a 10 31 deal and put it into an investment open to up to 500 individual investors typically, which is far more than something like a tenant in common where you're limited to only 35 investors. Delaware trust, yes, you're a fractional owner of a real estate portfolio that is managed by a sponsor who acts as a trustee and you basically, your only job is to go to the mailbox and receive your checks.   James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, I was trying to bring that up. Tenants in commons is another way I thought Delaware strategize is similar to tenants in common. Because in tenants in common is where everybody puts their 10 31, everybody has their own LLCs, all different entities, but they work as one. But you brought up a good point. There's a limit on 35 tenants in common that can be done but DST is 500 people.   Scott: And an important distinction to make there is that with a much higher cap on the number of investors, you're able to fractionally own much larger institutional scale types of real estate. So you may be able to be a fractional investor in a downtown Dallas office tower that's in a Delaware trust, whereas 35 investors, it would be difficult to pull together the 35 investors who could afford to purchase a multimillion-dollar property. But with a Delaware trust, you often are a fractional investor in a property portfolio that could potentially be worth tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars. So access to a larger scale institutional type of property is one of the benefits of what the DST has versus a tenant in common.    And then the other one, now some will see this as a negative, some may see it as a positive. With a tenant in common, each one of the up to 35 investors has a vote. They have some control over the upkeep and the sale or the management of that property. And as you know, when the property is going to be sold, you've got to get the unanimous vote of all 45 investors. With the Delaware trust, the investor is 100% passive. They do not have any say, any control over the management of the property. That's entirely the responsibility [48:05unclear] of the sponsor. They also do not have any control or voice over when the property is going to be sold. So if that appeals to an investor, in other words, if they say, I don't want I have to vote or to have to go get the other 34 people to vote, I just want to be passive, a Delaware trust is a good option compared to [48:31unclear]    James: But what is the average return of Delaware statutory trust?   Scott: So again, that varies. It varies from you know, market conditions and from the difference of Delaware trusts that are available. Typically what I have been seeing lately are rates of return between about five and seven and a half to 8% and that's cash on cash. So cash on cash or nominal right of return is let's just say six to six and a half percent in the midpoint. So while that is not typically a strong rate of return compared to private syndication or even compared to a lot of tenant in common deals, you have to look at the other benefits.    One, again, access to larger institutional scale properties. The fact that the Delaware trust is going to be a registered program, sponsored and regulated by oversight bodies. And then three, although this is also the case with the other types of real estate investment, the sponsor of the Delaware trust in rules similar to REITs. If they are taking depreciation on the underlying property, that tax credit has to be distributed to their investors. So while the nominal rate of return might be 6%, that is the cash on cash return, in many cases, the investor is going to see some portion of that cash dividend be already after tax. In other words, it's going to receive the benefit of that depreciation tax credit that the sponsor is taking. So depending on the investor's tax bracket, their effective rate of return is going to be higher than their nominal rate of return, given that some portion of that distribution is after tax money.   James: Got it, got it, got it. But let's say for example 6% cash in cash, is it including the sale of the property or is there such thing called the sale because they are physical assets under this DST, right?    Scott: Yeah, no, you're right and I thank you. I should be clear. That is the cash flow. Let's say that, again, rates of return I'm typically seeing now average, I would just say average around 6% for this example. That is the cash flow. So that's the annualized cash flow that the investor is going to receive in monthly checks. Obviously one 12th of that amount in monthly check is the underlying property where they have their principal. If that underlying property appreciates over the life of the trust and is sold at a value greater than it was acquired for, the investor is also going to receive their prorated share of that appreciation. So the aggregate return is, I like to call it, or the total return is if the property appreciates is definitely going to be higher than the cash flow rate of return.   James: Okay. So do you have that kind of sample numbers on roughly what's a performer?   Scott: I can refer generically to some of the deals that I've seen. So let's say if an investor puts $100,000 as, let's say in this scenario where I described leftover cash; if they've sold a million-dollar property and they want to do a 10 31 and buy a $900,000 property and put that residual 100,000 into a Delaware trust, I'm just gonna use a number typically four to five, six or seven years. And again, during this time, the investment is illiquid. The investor cannot get their money back on their own schedule. They have to wait until the sponsor finds a buyer and sells the underlying property. But most real estate investors understand the concept of illiquidity.    So if they've put 100,000 into a Delaware trust and five years down the road, the sponsor finds a buyer for that property and sells it at 25% gain, 25% in an appreciation, the investor is going to get their 100,000 back, they're going to get 25,000 for their proportionate share of the 25% gain. And during the five years they've held it, they've collected, I'll use the 6% rate of return as an example, they've collected $6,000 a year in monthly distributions at a 6% rate of return. So they've in effect received in a very simple example, their $100,000 back. They've gotten $30,000 of cashflow over five years and they've received a $25,000 gain or appreciation on their original investment.   James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Interesting. So, yeah, I mean, it depends on the structure of syndication, right? Usually, you know, like for me, we allow people to buy and sell their shares. You know, within the investment period, but it looks like DST doesn't give that flexibility.   Scott: A DST and you know, again, it's important for me to also say that with DSTs, there are still risks involved. You can lose money as you can with any type of investment. The illiquidity of the investment is something that the investor has to be informed of and understand that if they are an investor in a DST, they're at the mercy of the sponsor for the holding period. Now, while the disclosures require that I tell investors it's a five to seven year hold time with no option to exit. Typically with the market right now being what it is, I have seen DSTs liquidate sooner then five to seven years. It's simply varies from yield to deal.   James: And what is the fee that the sponsor takes in DST?   Scott: That again, it varies from deal to deal. Typically there's a 1% a dealer or sponsor fee, at closing. And again, as I mentioned earlier, I do earn a commission on investment that goes into a DST, it can range from anywhere from four to 6%. And, again, it's in the same ballpark as if you were working with a real estate agent and buying the physical property or working with yield syndicator and buying into syndication.   James: Very interesting. I mean, I didn't know this vehicle exists and this is very powerful in terms of 10 31 money specifically. Why? Because you know, and I was thinking that you always have to go in 10 to 200 to go to larger properties, but it looks like you can buy smaller properties and take the remaining and put into DSTs I guess. Right?   Scott: Yeah. It's really a part of my message that using a DST is a great way for an investor to diversify if it is in their interest. First of all, the primary reason anyone would undertake a 10 31 is to defer the tax. But a DST allows that investor to diversify into different types of property, both in terms of asset class or asset and active and passive real estate. So they can begin to sort of put more chest pieces onto the chest board, I guess and look at passive investment, active investment, lodging, self-storage, multifamily, single-family industrial, commercial; build a real estate portfolio that is truly diverse in terms of geography, asset category and the active and passive of ownership status.   James: Got it. So let's quickly talk about qualified opportunities zone. I mean, there's so much of details into opportunity zone. I don't think we have time to go into a lot of details there. But at a high level, what is qualified opportunity zones investment, how is that different from a normal 10 31 and DST and you know, investing into opportunity zones?   Scott: So qualified opportunities zones were also part of this same tax act that passed at the end of 2017. They are a fairly new concept or fairly new opportunity for investors. And the case can be made that opportunity zones were written into law because investments that were not real estate were excluded from section 1031 eligibility. So an opportunity zone is a geographic region of the country and there are a thousand or more opportunities zones all over the country where the local authorities have designated a desire to have investment flow into those zones from investors. They may be, you know, below market regions of cities or communities where the thought being that if investment dollars float into these areas, we would have more healthy economic development.    Qualified opportunity zone investors may use gains from a sale of an investment other than real estate, whereas with 10 31, all you can exchange is real property. So, for example, if an investor has a stock portfolio and it's gone up in value, they want to sell their stock portfolio, but they'd rather not pay the capital gains tax that that's going to incur, they could invest the gain from that sale into a qualified opportunity zone, differ the tax liability, invest in a a property or real estate or real estate fund that's building projects in that zone and then they would enjoy a certain tax benefits due to the deferral of their original gain. If they maintain that investment in the opportunity zone for 10 years, they could then cash out and take their money and pay no tax. So one of the important differences between a 10 31 exchange and an investment in an opportunity zone is to put it simply, you don't have to die in order to cash out tax-free.   James: But do you get 100% tax being erased?   Scott: Not in the first case. You're correct. It really is complicated and we could probably have a whole separate episode on all of that opportunity zones. There are really two appreciation events that are subject to favorable tax treatment when it comes to talking about opportunity zone investments. The first one is the gain that the investor realized on the sale of their asset, whatever it may be that they want to put into an opportunity zone. So if they sold real estate that had gone up in value or sold stock, or I'll go back to my classic car example, and had an investment sale that would have been subject to capital gains tax, they can defer that tax up to seven years by putting that investment into an opportunity zone. Now, it is only a seven-year deferral. So after seven years, the investor will owe a portion of the tax they would have owed on the original sale of their investment.    It will only be, in the case of a seven-year deferral, it'll only be 85% of the tax they would have owed. So it is truly just a deferral. You do have to come up with tax payment, at least 85% of the tax you might have owed seven years ago. In year seven, that tax bill does come due to the IRS. But understand now we're talking about two different investments. The investment that was sold to make the original opportunity zone investment, the tax four, which is deferred seven years. So it might be a benefit to an investor's cash flow and then the investment within the opportunity zone itself. And if that investment turns out to have been a good one, and the real estate or the property or the project in the opportunity zone appreciates over 10 years -hold time- and the investor then cashes out of that opportunity zone investment that will be exempt from capital gains tax.    So it's that second investment in the opportunity zone that if it is a winner, if it appreciates over 10 years, the investor has the potential to cash out with their gain and owe zero capital gains tax.    James: Got it. Got it. Very interesting. So let me summarize. 10 31 DST and qualified opportunity zone. So 10 31 let's say I have a million-dollars, where I want to defer my tax and my depreciation recapture, I just buy another asset, right? A larger asset or multiple assets, but it should be a larger value than all of it get deferred. And to the next asset, if I don't want to pay tax, I have to, you know, keep on doing 1031 until I die and pass it to my heirs. That's the 10 31.  So DST is basically you asked it's the same as 10 31, but it's more of passive investment.    Scott: Let me, let me jump in there and clarify it. A 10 31 is just a transaction. It's a way to sell and then buy real estate and defer the tax, not pay tax during that transaction. A DST is an asset. It's a kind of an investment. It is a passive real estate investment that can be a part of the equation of the 10 31 transaction.   James: Got it. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And qualified opportunity zone is basically, it's the same as 10 31, but you're deferring your tax for seven years and on the seventh year, your bill is due to the IRS, but you get 15% forgiveness.    Scott: You basically get a discount based on discount on the tax that you would have owed in year one. You'll owe 85% of it by the time year seven comes around. And so again, that was the tax you would have owed on whatever it was you sold to make the opportunities zone investment.    James: Got it. Got it. So the original tax difference, you only pay 85% after year seven, right? So you get 15% forgiveness. But I think the bigger thing in an opportunity zone is whatever deal that you're investing in an opportunity zone that's completely free in terms of capital gain after 10 years.   Scott: Yeah. Right, right. If the investment you have made in the opportunities zone does well and it goes up in value and 10 years down the road you have the opportunity to exit, you'll owe no tax.   James: Okay. That's very interesting because that's another investment where you don't pay tax at all. And if you're doing most of the time you definitely make money, right. If you go through the construction phase and you're past that I guess. Right.   Scott: Well, I will say that opportunity zones are new. There are a lot of risks involved. We don't have time probably to go into them here, but yes, there are a lot more considerations to making a potentially successful opportunity zone investment, but in the basics, I think you've got it correct.   James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've heard about so much of details on opportunity zone that you're to be really careful whether it's a qualifies opportunity zone and, you know, there's so many things, right. So awesome.    Scott: And you know, James, this is a good opportunity for me just to mention as kind of a way of a disclaimer. I am not an attorney and I'm not a CPA. And one of the most important pieces of advice I give to my clients is if you're doing any of these complicated real estate transactions, check with your lawyer, check with your CPA to make sure that you've gotten all your questions answered before you write the check.   James: Yeah. I think the purpose of this podcast and talking about so many things of this is just educational and just letting people know there are options out there. Which is very important because I was not aware of DSTS and you know, there are so much of details of the, you know, opportunity zone. So it was very eyeopening for me, so thank you very much. I appreciate it. Why not you tell our audience how to get hold of you if they want to get hold of you?   Scott: You bet. Sure. again, I'm Scott Hendricks. My company is called Current Investments. My website is currentinvestments.net. That's all one word, current, like the flow of water and then investments plural.net. You'd be welcome to send me an email or give me a call. My email is Scott@currentinvestments.net. My phone number...Do you typically, do your guests share their phone number?   James: That's up to you.   Scott: Okay, well that's fine. I don't mind at all. My phone number in Austin is  512 563 2134    James: Awesome. All right, Scott, thanks for coming in. I learned a lot of things. I'm sure my audience and listeners learned a lot of things and that's it. Thank you.    Scott: It was fun. James. Thanks very much.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing. I'm here today with Mark Kenny, who's the founder and I'm not sure, the president or what's the title?   Mark: Yeah, well my wife and I together so we might have different opinions but...   James: Okay. Both of you run the King multifamily. But before that, before we go into the hot topics that we're going to discuss with Mark, make sure that you guys look at last week's episode where we had KK Singh being interviewed. KK has moved from a business owner. He used to own gas stations and laundry mat and now he's become a multifamily investor, which is a very, very interesting concept. Because I think any business owner, anybody who wants to know how that business is run and why he's using multifamily, why did he go into multifamily? And he didn't even pay tax last year just because of the multifamily investment. So you guys want to check out the last episode.  But let's come back to this episode. Hey Mark, welcome to the show.   Mark: Thanks for having James. Great to see you again.   James: Awesome. Also, I'm happy to have you on the show. So, Mark, he's a GP, almost like 5,200 units, out of that 2000 units where he's basically the primary active asset manager and he's also GP on another 3,200 on top of the 2000 units. And he goes across multiple markets, which is very interesting for me. I want to go a bit deep dive into that. You know, he's in Texas, he's in Alabama, he's in Tennessee, he's in Florida and I believe that's what I covered. Right. Mark?   Mark:  Georgia, as well.   James: Georgia. Okay, got it. Got it. Atlanta. Right. So yeah. So Mark, did I miss out on something about yourself? Do you want to tell the audience about yourself?   Mark: No, I mean, yeah, real quick. So I grew up in Michigan. I'm in Dallas now, so not too far away from you, James. But I was a CPA for a while, did IT consulting, which you and I traded some stories about that before about the IT side and I started buying small multi-family when I was 22, I was a senior in college. About two to four units and then my brother and I...I didn't know what syndication was. Syndication is the fancy word for raising money from other people for the most part and pooling it together to buy properties. I didn't know what that was. So I started buying two to four units. And then my IT business was doing pretty well. That was, I really had no time. I always, I'd say 80, 85 hours a week and start really doing the math.   I was probably 90 to a hundred hours a week and a lot of weeks. And you know, frankly didn't have any time for my wife, caused some issues and so she basically said, you need to do something different than what you're doing. And I said, well, yeah, I will. But you know you have to deal with me and we both love real estate. So we started buying larger properties through syndication. I invested passively first in a syndication with a friend of mine, said it makes a lot of sense and you know, why don't I look at doing it myself and that's what we started doing back in 2013.   James: Got it. Got it. It's very interesting about your story when you're working on a W2 job, especially in the IT tech industry. I mean, it's a lot of work, we put in long hours, right? It's a constantly changing sector, right? The industry is consistently changing. We are always driven by schedule and I was just talking to, Shanti, who's my wife and all and how our life has changed when we used to be in W2 every day, like Fridays when we can really open up our time, open up because from Monday to Friday we are like so busy working like [03:55unclear]  focused and where I used to work, we used to work remote as well. So after five, six o'clock we used to work like, you know, we have lunch, we have dinner, and we continued working with the offsite team. So life never ends. And now with real estate, it's so much of a difference. Now you own your own time and you're out on what to do and we can, you know, my traveling time in Austin is like 11 to 2. That's it because it's a bit of traffic.   Mark: Yeah. It's interesting, right? I mean, I actually started my own IT business 2008 so I didn't even have a W2 job since 2008. But I got in a situation where, you know, any project that came up and any unrealistic timeframe that was out there, I would do it. I would make the dates. So that's what allowed me to get more and more projects. I had a number of Fortune 100 companies as customers, but so even though I have my own business back then, I still didn't have the luxury of time. You know, I was always going somewhere, always doing projects and yeah, I'd be up, I sleep three hours a night, like consistently, that's all I would sleep.   James: I mean, you don't have to go by numbers, but did you make like almost a similar amount of money compared to what you made in real estate? I mean, it's a time versus money investment, right?   Mark: It's a great question because when I first started looking at syndication, I said I'm not going to be able to replace my IT income. And I truly, it was a mindset. It really was. I really did not think I'd replaced my IT income. It was pretty, pretty high at the time. And after three projects that I did in multifamily I stopped doing IT. I had not replaced my IT income at that point in time, but it was enough to live and live, you know, decent. And then we've done, you know, we've done 37 projects, whatever now. But I didn't think I was gonna replace IT. But yeah, we've far surpassed it. I mean a lot frankly, and the time we have, and I don't have to ask anyone to go anywhere or you know, things like that, you can turn it on and off if you want to. Where in IT, if you're not working, not making any money, you don't have that passive income.   James: So you have a very interesting life cycle because you were working in IT, a W2  job and then you went to do your own business but still in IT. And now you are completely a full-time real estate investor. So, so in terms of time wise, I mean from what we're discussing, I mean, real estate investment gives you the best return of time, right? I mean, you get really good pay and at the same time, your time is like, really low.   Mark: There is no comparison. You know, you mentioned about talking to your wife a higher life is different. I mean, my life has, you know, 180 degrees different for the better than when it was before. I was on the verge of, you know, I'm not sure, you know, Tammy, my wife wasn't only happy because of my work schedule and now we got to work full time together. Just like you get to work with your wife, which is great. And the time, you know, if I want to go somewhere and you can get to the point with multifamily or any real estate investment, you get enough of it. If you choose to go sit on the beach, which I don't want to do, frankly I don't but if you choose to go and do that, you get in a position to do that for sure. With IT, I wouldn't be able to, I had to keep working projects in order to make money.   James: Yeah. But can we go back to your mindset when you are working, not as a business owner, when you are working in IT? Because I sometimes analyze my own mindset when I was working, because when I was working in IT, I did look at Robert Kiyosaki's book and I could not read like a few pages because it just doesn't make sense to me, we are so busy working. What is this guy talking about business. And after a few pages I put it down and I forgot about it until recently I started reading it and I was just surprised that that book changed a lot of people, real estate investors' life. But I don't know, I think when you are working you're really, really working, you really don't care about the business side of it and I mean, I think it's up to your circle, right? Who are you mixing with?   Mark: That's a great point. I know when I worked originally at KPMG Consulting and I worked for SAP you know, did some Salesforce consulting and things like that. And you're looking at other people that are older than you at the time I started out, it was, you know, early twenties when I started out. And look at other people that are partners, for example, and you have this image, you're like, that's my lifestyle. I'm going to be traveling all the time and I'm going to be working seven days a week, which is what I did. And you know, and then, you know, some point in time, not everyone gets to the point where I was, where my point was. And my wife was pretty much ready to leave me if I didn't do anything. And that was a big eye-opener for me. But you're right, you get trapped in that circle of influence, right? And everyone's doing the same thing. And at that time, I aspire to be a partner and I would've made partner, I mean, made a manager in two years and things like that. But I would have been miserable, frankly. I would have been.   James:  So compared to the job security, I mean, I don't know whether there's job security in any job or not because there is no job security, right? I mean, when I was a manager, I used to hire and fire people very quickly just because of non-performance, right? So there is no job security, right? I mean, I use to work on a semiconductor industry for like almost 20 years and we thought we were going to retire there but we realize you know, during different economic cycles, the company doesn't really, you know, honor your loyalty.  I mean, there's no such thing. They have to make a business decision, they'll let you go if they need to let you go. There's no such thing as a company is going to be keeping you forever.    Mark: Right, right. That's true.    James: Right. So yeah, coming back to real estate venture. So 2008 was when you got into IT and when did you start your real estate venture?   Mark: Syndication; 2013 is when I first started investing passively and invested in a few deals. And about that time I started looking at syndication, but it took me almost a year to get my first deal. And it was partly, I was looking at other things too; self-storage and building custom development, you know, homes and things like that, franchises. I looked at everything. I was looking for something to get me out of the bad situation I was in. But it still took us about a year to get our first deal.   James: So did you stop work and start into real estate? Was it a step function or was it like a...   Mark: It is gradual; for me, it took me three deals. So I'm thinking, let me see, 2014 is when I think I got my first deal, I don't remember exactly. But by '16 I had stopped doing IT.   James: Got it. Was that a painful transition from a business owner to a real estate investor?   Mark: No, it really wasn't for me anyway. You know, I've always had a big fear of money and you know, I wish I did, but I always did cause growing up and things like that. But we had enough money set aside to where, you know, I looked at it, if I had to go back and do IT, I had so many connections at a time, I could get a job pretty much, you know, right away. I didn't want to, but I was like, okay, well, I have a transition I'm making here, but if I fail, that was my mind, if I failed at doing this and after taking a year to find my first deal, I was pretty skeptical. And then we started getting the traction. So I was like, Hey if I need to go back, I can do that. I don't want to do it. But if I do, I can support the family. The transition wasn't hard for me. We were buying at that time only in Dallas, so I really wasn't having to travel outside Dallas. Yeah. So it was a pretty easy transition.   James:  Got it, got it. So as I was talking about that, you had like three different lifecycles, right? You're a W2 employee, you're a business owner and then you become a real estate investor and you are a CPA. So I'm going to ask you, similar to CPA question, how was your tax advantages comparing these three life cycles?   Mark:  Okay. So you know, even though I'm a CPA, I haven't practiced for 20...   James: But at a high level, was there any tax benefit between...   Mark:  Oh yeah. Without a doubt. When I had the IT business, you know, I was actually paying taxes quarterly. I was getting hit hard. I mean, I was making decent money. Now, in the last two years, we haven't paid any federal income tax like zero. And in fact, it's negative. So people were like, Oh, you didn't make any money. No, we make money. But from the tax benefit we received through depreciation and cost segregation and bonus appreciation, we pay zero federal income tax. So, I mean, think about people listening to this, if you didn't have to pay taxes, how much more money you'd have in your pocket and what you could do with that?   James: Absolutely.  Yeah. Yeah. I have a chart that shows how a $2 double for the next 20 years. And you know, at a 25% rate, that $2 becomes 72,000 after 20 years because you're taxed 25% every time you double, right? But if you don't have tax, that $2 becomes almost like $11 million, you know.   Mark: Oh, boy, Oh my goodness.    James: So the tax does impact your compounding savings. And if you don't look at it, you may not know. I mean, when I was working, I never really looked at tax because as I say, we are busy working. We just look at net pay coming to the thing. I mean taxes, like it's not nice for me. But when I look at that kind of chart, you know, it does make a lot of difference in terms of, Hey, you know, it does impact your overall savings. You know, if you compounded for not [13:53unclear]  you see a big difference, millions of dollars of difference.   Mark: Oh yeah. And like you mentioned, when you have a W2 job, it just comes out, you notice it, you don't like it. But when you have your own business, my own IT business, you have to write check every quarter you really notice it. And then you're like, I made that much money this quarter and where did it all go? And now I have to write a check for, you know, X number of dollars. And you know, you're just scratching your head and you're frustrated and stressed out. But with real estate, it's literally zero.   James: So did you have employees under you when you have a business?    Mark: All 1099.  James: Okay. So if you have an employee, then you're to pay tax for them too, I guess. So that's double taxation   Mark: That's exactly right.   James: Okay. So W2, I mean, I don't know. I have a chart that shows W2 people are paying almost 70% of the tax in this country. So this country is supported by people who are in W2. They are the ones who's paying taxes. They're the ones building the roads, the bridges, and all the infrastructure. Right? The 30% is from the other people who are earning less than 30,000 or people who are earning more than 500,000 and above.   Mark: Yeah.    James: Right? I mean, people who are earning more than 20,000 to pay a lot of taxes. But in general, if you look at it, the big bulk of it is paid by our W2 employees.   Mark: Right. Makes sense.    James: Just because you can't run away.    Mark: You can't. There are no savings, no tax shelters.   James: Absolutely. I'd say real estate investors, all kinds of you know incentive in the tax code to not paying taxes. So coming back to your real estate venture in multifamily, and you skipped over buying single-family and you went direct to multifamily.   Mark: We did. I mean, multifamily, two to four units when I was 22. Yeah. So it was smaller for sure. It made more sense to me, frankly. I don't remember, I actually didn't look at any homes. I don't know why I'd go back and think about that. Why I didn't start looking at any single-family homes. To me, we looked at two to four units at a time.   James: Well, I mean if you look at cashflow, two to 14 definitely make a lot more sense in terms of cash flow. Right? Maybe that's what it is. And how many two to four units did you own before you come to multifamily?   Mark: We had like 17 units total.   James: Okay. 17 in two to four units, I guess. Smaller multifamily. And do you think that helped you when you scale up?   Mark: It did. Because I know you manage, right? You and your wife manage. When we did the smaller properties, we self-managed and we took care of things and evicted people. So it definitely helped from that perspective. I didn't like the process, it's not something I want to do now, but it also, even though it's drastically different how you evaluate four units and below and in five units and below is drastically different, people can argue all day long steps are almost identical, right? You identify your criteria, you go drive by a property, contract, blah, blah, everything's the same. So it helped for sure. Plus just kind of, you know, getting comfortable with buying your first deal is the hardest. So once you start, you know, I bought like whatever it was, you know, five deals, six deals, I don't remember the number, exactly.  It gets you more comfortable. So when you go buy a larger property, it's bigger numbers. So it is concerning whatever I had already done, you know, like six transactions before that time, even though they're small, it helped.   James: Got it. Got it. I mean, in a way, it helps because I mean, you know at least how to read the lease and you probably know how real estate section happens, right?   Mark: Your first time signing for your first deal, usually you're most likely going to be pretty freaked out, right? You've done six smaller deals. It's still, then when you start doing bigger deal, then it's the money. Right? The only thing that concerned me, you know, I have to say only it really was the, you know, brain capital to the deals. I had no concerns about how to underwrite the deals that I knew how to do that or how to find deals or talk to brokers or loan. It was always about, you know, the capital. That was my biggest concern.   James: Okay. Okay. But do you think that's still an issue in this market cycle?   Mark: Yeah. I'm always concerned about capital. You know, we have like eight deals under contract right now. You know, so we've never not closed a deal, but you know, that's the one thing that's still stressing me out sometimes, frankly.   James: Yeah. Because you need to figure out whether you have big enough investor base too in all those eight deals.    Mark: That's right.    Mark: Okay. Got it. So coming back to this, no multiple markets that you have, I mean, do you want to explain on how did you get into this so many markets? I mean, I think some of it is you've partnered with some of your students, right?   Mark: Well, originally I was just buying pretty much with one other person off in Dallas. Dallas, and at least, in my opinion, was definitely getting more expensive and it's even more expensive now. I have a twin brother that moved to Atlanta so I used to visit him and Atlanta has a lot of similarities to Dallas. Dallas is yet, and it may never be, but it definitely has a lot of similarities. So I started traveling there. I looked at properties for about a year and a half before we got our first deal. And I just really like the market. That kind of was if my brother wasn't there, I don't know if I would be in Atlanta, frankly. I don't know if I would have thought about going there. When I'm going there, I see a lot of activity, new buildings, new development cranes, things like that. So it was an attractive market.    And then, so that's Texas and you know, kind of the Atlanta area. And then we started looking in the Southeast. This is a general statement. Some of the brokers cross different estates sometimes too. They might, if they have a license, they can actually sell in multiple States and they might say, Hey, now, we're in Tennessee, we have a project here, we have a project up in Arkansas now, which we don't own anything there yet. So these brokers started giving us deals and I started checking out different markets. And really, the way I got into the other markets as far as initially was I would have brokers in Dallas typically reached out to other brokers in other markets and make an introduction for me. And that kind of gives you instant credibility and they're going to typically give you the best of the best of brokers to work with in another market. And that's how we got involved in other markets.   James: Got it. So how did you choose this market? I mean, except for Atlanta where you said your brother was there, you initially went there because of Atlanta, but now you are like in five different markets. Tennessee, Alabama, Florida. I mean, now, how did you choose these markets and why these markets?   Mark:  Yeah. A friend of mine who I've done a lot of deals with, he had bought a smaller deal in Memphis and I never would have considered Memphis. And some people don't like Memphis. We own a lot there. We've done really well there. But Memphis also has, you know, even though [21:05 unclear] job growth population growth, things like that, it's okay, but not like Dallas, of course. But the rent growth has been going up. They're putting, you know, several billion dollars in investments of downtown. But that particular city also has something called a pilot program, which we've done multiple times. Where you can go in, you buy a multifamily property, you have to put a certain amount of capital into it. It's a lot. And then you'll get your property taxes cut in half and then they're frozen for 20 years. So I mean, as you know, property taxes is typically one of the largest, right?  [21:44unclear]  I can freeze them for 20 years. Cash flow is going to typically be pretty nice on it.    James: Hmm. So you're basically taking advantage of that particular program. What about the other States that..."   Mark: Yeah, Florida, I always looked, I like Florida just because of probably the weather initially and when we were in Atlanta we started looking in Florida as well. And Florida has, I mean, some areas like Miami that as you probably know are extremely expensive, just not going to buy there. But I also have a cousin, multiple cousins actually live in Florida and so I heard different things from talking to them. And then some of the brokers we were talking to like in Georgia and stuff like that, had some properties in Florida and a property came up and the first time we're looking at properties there. I liked the properties in Jacksonville and we have a few properties there now. And it was one of those markets, again, similar to Atlanta, job growth, population growth, rent growth. It doesn't have to be off the charts, frankly.    Some of the markets where it's so off the charts, it's just too expensive to buy in, the yields. You can't get the returns. And then with Alabama, it was a guy that had a deal and was looking to partner and I partnered with him on a few deals. He had deals there in Alabama. And then we have another one right now, a guy in our coaching group that has a deal in Alabama as well. He's closer over by there as far as that's where he'd been looking. So usually it's through some sort of relationship. Somebody either already lives there or someone is looking there and then it kind of gives me an opportunity to check the markets out.   James: Got it, got it. So basically if you have boots on the ground as part of your program, that's an advantage definitely. Right?    Mark: It is for sure.   James: But don't you find, you know, establishing broker relationship in that kind of market it's harder because you, I mean they did not know you, right?   Mark: It is, there's no question. I mean, you know, I think that's why it took us so long to get into Atlanta. We had a really hard time breaking in there. And then once we got in there, you know, it was just one brokerage firm in Atlanta that we closed 11 deals in like 18 months with. We've definitely had their attention. With that first deal., I went to Florida. I mean, I was banging my head against the wall because we couldn't get any traction with brokers there. I would say, you know, you just keep sticking with it, but there's no question, you know, if you're an outsider, don't live there and you've never bought a deal there, you're at a disadvantage. You can use things like, Hey, your track record and you can have brokers that I know.    So when we got a deal in Florida, our first deal, it was with a brokerage firm that I had bought a deal in Dallas with and the broker in Dallas had called me about it. So he, you know, if you want to say put a good word in for us. So a lot of these brokers talk as, you know, it's very small world. Yeah. And I don't think we would've gotten that deal in Florida if I had not bought a deal without a broker, you know, brokerage firm if you want to stay in Dallas, I think we would have probably not been selected for that deal.   James: Got it. So let's go a bit more detail into that step by step. So let's say today somebody, you know, in your circle or one of your students come, Hey, you know, I found a deal in Florida, right? Somewhere in Florida, right? So what are the things that you would do to underwrite the deal?   Mark: Yeah. You know, the underwriting different aspects of it, forget the reports and stuff for a second. But you know, even financing terms can be drastically different across the country. Some of the pre-review cities and stuff like that start at 65%. So you want to first understand, don't assume we're getting 80% leverage in three or five years IO in every single location because it's different. So understanding first, the insurance can be drastically different. You know, if you're on a coastal area, it can be a lot higher than all the other areas and understand kind of the fundamentals there.    Taxes, you know, do they get reassessed? And that can be through, we have a tax consultant we use, but also you can typically just call the County and the County will tell you kinda how the taxes will be reassessed and when. You know, in Memphis, that's every four years so that's important to know. They only reassess every four years. And then we'll get like a report, whether it's Yardi or CoStar. Those are paid reports. We'll also use things like some free...we have a number of links on our analyzer that take you to things like crime and the school districts things like that. Those are all links we have on that. But overall, nothing beats having someone on the ground, you know. So if you can talk to other people there and talking to lenders, you know, lenders have the biggest investment in a deal than anybody as a general statement where they have more money involved. So try to understand from lenders to kind of how some of the properties are performing there, it is important. In the report, as I said, it's only as good as the report. It is good data. A lot of it's based on, you know, actual transactions that have happened, but I'm trying to get someone like a broker or property management company. So if we have a property management company you know, David Shore is multi South in Memphis and he's in seven other, he's actually in seven other States.   Once we built that relationship, then we start asking him questions. He'll tell us, don't even look at that deal, it's not a good deal. This deal maybe you can look at, you know, 95% of deals he tells us not to look at there. So having some boots on the ground can't be replaced. It might take you a while to do that. It's typically going to be like a management company or maybe, you know, a broker, but you know, brokers in to sell, you know, they wouldn't, don't get paid unless they sell a property. So kind of all the different aspects. Reports talking to people, visiting the area, trying to understand what happened before in the past. Those areas are all good ways to kind of get more Intel on the property.   James: So you basically look at location, crimes, making sure how are you underwriting your tax records.    Mark: The tax is huge.   James:  Every state is different.   Mark: Yeah. Every state, county; city even sometimes. So we have like I say a tax consultant, but we have found really if you call the County and tell them the property what you're doing, they'll tell you how they reassess and they'll give you a good number. And we've only had like a couple of occasions where it hasn't really given us the information we want. Generally speaking, we always get the information we need from the County.   James: Got it. Got it. So who have told you the most knows? I mean like who say don't touch that deal most of the time? Is it a property management company or is it the tax consultant or insurance company?   Mark: Property management company. Without a doubt. It may be they don't want to manage it.   James: Well how do you know they just don't like that property. Maybe it's just because...   Mark: I know you self-manage. We have found in almost every submarket we ran with a management company, even if they don't manage a property today, they're like, we manage that property five years ago and you know like in that, you might have some Intel. We got a property here where a number of properties in Dallas I've looked at and our management company managed it. So I called the guy and said, Hey, what's up with that? And he'll say, you know, it had like $200,000 of plumbing issues or whatever it might be. But usually someone that's large in a submarket, they know the property or they at least know you know the area well enough to give you some really good Intel and it seems to amazed me where people are like, well, THE manageMENT company says we can push rents like $75, I think we can do it like by 125. it's like there's no basis for that. Like why do you think you can do that?    You can push your management company and ask them questions and things like that. You know, if I go try and do a comp for a property myself, I don't fit the demographics, I'm probably not going to get a good comp. Have a management company do it for you. They'll actually send people out there that fit the demographics. They'll actually get you comps and pictures and things like that. Go into some of these reports...I get called all the time from, I won't name them, but these providers of data call me all the time. I don't talk to them. And half time the information you get, you don't even know if it's right. It's coming through there. So, yeah.   James: So how do you know the management company that is calling is not the current management company?   Mark: Yeah, it's happened before. You know, you can ask the broker who managed it today. They'll tell you because it could be for sale and the property management company doesn't even know it. And if you call them and tell them, Hey, I'm looking at this property for sale, then they're going to be pretty upset.   James: Yeah. I've looked at out-of-state as well at one point. And I realized management company gives me the best quick data. They can tell me a lot of things about a state compared to anybody else, right. Because they know the pain of managing it. So yeah, I would say they are one of the best resources to call if you're looking at out of state investment. So after that, what do you do? I mean, you already looked at taxes, you already looked at the property, so it's all good. So what do you do next?   Mark: So then we'll underwrite it. Usually using, you know, we have a quick analyzer. We have a much more detailed analyzer. In the detailed analyzer, we're going to go through every expense category, like line by line, compare them to the, you know, T12. We'll try to get two independent property management budgets so we get that. And then our analyzer also has industry standards based on property, class, and size. We'll tell you what the standards are for every single category. Which is very helpful to see if something's out of whack. You know, I just had an example. Somebody not in a group, if someone's sent me something, it was two properties. It was over 300 doors together and they had payroll at $750 a door. I'm like, no, it's not going to happen. Or we're going to share the property manager on-site across the two properties and might not for 300 plus units, we're not going to, not very easily.  So I said, okay, so does the management company say they're okay with that? No. And if they did, what happened was that if you have to get rid of them and now you're going to bring in another management company, they're going to be at $1,200 a door. It just happened, another one today actually on something where they're getting charged two and a half percent on 80 doors. I said that's pretty low, two and a half percent. I'm not saying it's impossible, but you need to probably bump that up because just because one management company said they'll do it for that, if they're not your management company anymore, then you're going to be paying more.   James: Yeah. Yeah. You can't underwrite just because one person said it. I mean two and a half is really low compared to any industries. Whenever I see sponsors or syndicators showing me a deal, I mean, not many people should me their deals, but I do get to see some people still.  I mean, when they say they want to share management, that is an indication that you know that deal doesn't have that much upside. They have to do really, really creative weird stuff. They will share this, share that, we have to do. [33:15 unclear] covered parking. We have to do washer dryer and that's all that really small amount of upside. And that is not a good deal.    Mark: That's just the gravy. You're exactly right. I mean, you know it, right? You manage your properties and people are like, I'm going to share. I was like, you're not going to. I mean, if you think it was that easy, don't you think all the management companies would do it?    James: You're going to compromise a lot of things when you share management. And as I said, when you're going to that extent to really justify your upside in the deal, that means the deal is really not a good deal.   Mark: Well, James, I have people who'd be like, we're going to put in like wifi and charge this and they're trying to put that in an underwriting and I'm like, yeah. First of all, you might not be able to because of the cable contract. Right. You might not be allowed to, and second of all, let's just assume you're able to do that, is that needed in your analysis to make the deal work? I sure hope it doesn't. You know, it doesn't mean that.    James: Those who are learning this business, the biggest bulk of the deals that work is when you can bump up rent and you can reduce expenses if you can do these things is a big thing. So if you see any deals that you can, majority of your upside comes from here. You know, I don't look at adding more one or two washer and dryer, adding parking, adding wifi. That's what you said or sharing management. That's all right. Really the deal doesn't work at all. I think the sponsor's just trying to squeeze all kinds of juice and tell you that it's going to work, but in reality, it is really, really hard to make all that work. I mean that all that is just a bonus. If it works, it's good.   Mark: Yeah, that's exactly right. And your total expenses, you could go up because the property taxes, but you know some of your points of your own, you reduce the expenses. I mean there are huge savings in water lots of times for operators. You can go in there and do repair and maintenance. We see lots of times you do as well, I'm sure were people are putting capital items in repair maintenance and they're like $1,400 a door per year. I mean that's a really high, right? So they're just putting stuff up there. If you go in and get a loan you're able to put capital in there and maybe do roofings and a/c and things like that, you can most likely bring your repair maintenance down more to industry standard. So for looking for those things, but if you don't know what those standards are, you know, you don't have any gauge.   James: Sure, sure, sure. So we don't have to talk about your detail and analysis that you do, but on the sniff test that you have a quick analysis. So one of the few things that you would look at to, you know, kick out a project   Mark: Return wise, I'll look at, you know, we still shoot for like a 10% cash on cash return, which is getting harder   James:  10% with the IO on year one, I guess.   Mark: Yeah. Overall or if the product is a five-year project, 10% cash in cash, 15% plus IRR and 100%; 100% is getting harder on five years, frankly for a lot of properties, closer to six.  In some markets, it's more than that, but usually we try to stay in six and below to double the money. And then I'm looking at other things like, you know, what cap rate are they using? You know, on their exit, how they get the current cap rate, the broker. I mean, I had someone, no joke, in Florida called me and said- it wasn't Miami, by the way- they said, Oh, the broker told me the cap rate is 3 and a half. You know what I mean? So those types of things, right. So you can make any deal work. It's on a piece of paper,   James: Just change the exit cap rate.    Mark: Exactly right. I have an example, I do in our workshop where I'm like, you know this, and then you do the cap rate down to two, what does it do? And then, you know, other things are going to be more round, you know, total income growth over the first couple of years. What does it look like? You know, I'll see sometimes people think we're going to grow income 30%. I'm not saying it's impossible to do that, but I see a property as, you know, 92% occupied and you go up 30%, your total income in a year is pretty high so you need to have justification for that. So basically we look at a lot of different gauges, break-even occupancy, break-even reds and then the financing. You know, people don't understand financing well enough. Lots of times as far as what the hell they're going to do that.   James: It can make or break a deal. Right? So let's look at like the rent growth and the exit cap rate, right? So how do you differentiate these rent growth and exit cap rate on this like five different markets there?   Mark: Well the market cap rates, so we always start with the submarket cap rate, doesn't matter which property it is. And we have different ways to get that through reports and things like that. And then we put an escalator on it, an annual escalator, and it'll be different between ABC assets. And we have some ranges there. Some markets actually, you know, Dallas has gotten compressed so much on class C, you know, it was like eight and a half percent in '13. Now, it's like five cap for a lot of properties and you don't know if it's ever gonna go back. So we'll usually use you know, minimum 0.1 up and then up to a 0.2 for a year. So it could be, you know, full a hundred basis points on a five-year exit and a lot of it's depending on the property and location.    I mean some of them, some of the markets that the cap rates the banks compressed there but they haven't compressed as much as like Dallas. I mean they might've been..I'll just make an example, say Dallas eight and a half. Now it's five and the market there might have been seven and a half and now it's six. So it went down, you know, one and a half percent total. But we'll actually, we'll look at the property, the type of property that, you know, the age of it as a class and then the demographics and we'll add an escalator on an annual basis for it. So each year it escalates up.   James: But how do you decide that? So for example, I think in Texas a lot of people uses 3% rent growth, right? Even though some cities are different.   Mark: Well, no, for rent growth we usually use 2%. This is across the board, across all markets after year two. Your first two years as you know, you might have come in and you're increasing rents, rephase revenue in and things like that. After year two, the general statement is going to be 2%.    James: What about expenses?    Mark: Two.     James: Okay, so 2% income growth. 2% on year two onwards I guess. Which makes a lot of sense. I mean, you're not really counting for the first year for value add.   Mark: Right and it might be higher. I mean some people were like in Dallas, you know, seven and a half percent rent increase growth for a while. And people were like, I'm like, but that's like today, one point in time it's proved where, you know, Dallas rent increases have gone down considerably. It's still a great market, I like the market. I don't really buy here right now, but you can't count on today. Or someone will say, Hey, the economic vacancy is 6% and I'm like, yeah, but I mean, good for them. But you can't count on that.    James: You can't count on that. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, yesterday there was a national multifamily trend report which shows I mean Dallas is below national average in terms of rent growth, right? So San Antonio and Austin, Austin has been always higher than national rent growth but San Antonio is higher than national rent growth. I never seen that San Antonio being higher than Dallas. I mean it's just cities change. You have to be really conservative in your underwriting.    Mark: I think people are like, enough is enough, right? When rents go up, you know, seven plus percent for a few years in a row, people are like, you know. And it doesn't mean it's a bad, bad market. I mean, there are 150,000 people a year here that moved to, [41:07unclear] you know, net. So there's great jobs and population growth. I've been arguing that for a while. It doesn't matter all those things happen. At some point in time, people will say enough is enough.    James: Yeah. People can't pay anymore.   Mark: In a 2% increase in their wage or whatever they get in 7% in rent, you know, four years in a row, it has a big impact on them.   James: Absolutely. Absolutely. But how do you like for example, in your experience, because you're working on multiple markets, right? I mean apart from Texas, which has seen a good rent growth, I mean, I think even Florida is seeing a good rent growth. I do not know what other markets house in Tennessee, Alabama and I think...   Mark: Georgia is good as a whole. I mean some markets and we bought in a place called Gainesville, Georgia, not Florida. The property has done phenomenal. But that's a secondary market for sure. It's about 45 minutes from Atlanta, but it's like, you know, a 7% rent growth right now. Same with Dalton, Northeast, you know, almost close to Chattanooga rent growths. Florida, like you said, is high; parts of Georgia is definitely high. Alabama and Tennessee, I would say are mediocre, frankly, they're just going to be average. Now, Memphis in general, the random amounts are lower, but the rent growth there is quite high right now from a percentage standpoint. But you know, the starting with rents, half of Dallas, wherever it is, right. So it's proportional, but the percent of rent growth in Memphis is actually quite high right now. The last I saw, it was in the top 10 in the country.   James: Oh really? Okay. Okay. And what about the exit cap rate? Right. So usually, I mean the usual underwriters, people use like one, to 0.2 more than what the market is. Do you use the same exit cap rates in the other markets?   Mark: We take the current and we'll add...so let's say the current was a six cap, we'll add 0.1 per year, 0.20 per year. And in some cases like to your point, and so like that's to the end of five years, you would've gone from a six to a seven. And in some markets, yeah, we'll be, you know, if we're going to be doing a 0.15 in a certain market and we're like, well, maybe this market isn't quite as attractive or in the past it hasn't performed quite as well, we might do the 0.20. At the end of the day, I mean, as you know, nobody knows what the cap rates going to do. We can all guess. And the important thing to consider is that you know, the cap rate has no impact on your cash flow per se. It's really more of a capital event like a refi or a sale, things like that. So if you can still cash flow and you know, get good returns, then you know, you wait to sell when it makes more sense to sell.   James: Correct. What about a loan wise? Have you guys been doing a longterm agency debt or you've been doing some short term loans as well?   Mark: We do about a third of the deals we do prior bridge, but not necessarily short term is still up to five years. So it's not short term really. And the rates are attractive and there's, you know, a lot of advantages too. Bridge and some disadvantages, but there are a lot of advantages. I like them, especially in the big value add deals from what you have to get them. And then we do Fannie, Freddie, and then a number of bridge frankly.   James: Got it. Got it, got it. So I mean, you work with a lot of you know, students who are trying to come up in this industry, right? So can you describe one characteristic of a student who made them really successful you know, sponsor on their own?   Mark: Okay.  Characteristic is, I mean, you know, if you want to say grit, not giving up, but as far as a whole, it's getting really good at something that really, you know, one skill set. You don't have to know everything about multifamily necessarily to get started. You have other people there to help you. But getting really good at something that's a value to somebody else. And it sounds like, okay, that's kind of obvious. Well, we've seen it work time and time again where someone, all they do is pretty much come in and just find deals. That's where the specialty is. They don't want to raise money or sign the loan or know things like that. But I think it's being patient, you know, when you have to wait a year, potentially. I waited a year to get my first deal. That's a long time, you know, to wait. And then you look back on it, it's like, that's not a long time to wait when you started buying more deals or you're like trying to do something new and you're spreading, you know, 12 months before you get a deal that can be frustrating. So just being patient.   James: Yeah. Especially when people are already committed, I'm going to do this.    Mark: Yeah, some people give something up to do it.   James: Yeah. I mean, I really just remember there's not much deals out there. So, you know, finding that one deal that makes sense takes time. Right. It's not easy, If it was easy, everybody would do it.   Mark: That's right. That's right. Okay.   James: So coming back to your personal side of it. I mean, is there any proud moment in your life that you think I would remember that moment? That one particular moment in your experience in your real estate venture?   Mark: Yeah.  That's a great question actually. I would say when I got that third deal and it closed because I had already decided if I close that deal, I was going to stop doing IT. So when I got that third deal and said, Hey...my son kept asking me cause I kept looking for deals when he's like, if you get that deal, can you stop doing IT? Cause he was seeing me work so much. And so when I got that that was huge for me, for my family.   James: Got it. That was a transition point of view, getting away from IT to real estate, I guess.    Mark: Right, right. And making the decision, like you said, to do it full time.     James: Yeah. It's a hard decision, especially if you're already used to a certain industry. And what has been, you know,  paying your bills, right.    Mark: Paying your bills, which is great. And you know, the other thing, unfortunately, when I was doing IT, that was kind of my self-worth. That's where I got my value. I wasn't really good at a lot of things, but for some reason, my mind just worked that way. And so I got my self-worth out of my job. So to give that up, you know, it is a big thing. And you don't know how successful you're going to be or not in your new adventure. So, but I mean, the best decision I ever made.   James: Yeah. I mean, you brought up a good point. Sometimes that whole industry, what you study for, define you 20, 30 years in your life and suddenly, you are changing your complete identity. I mean, it's a big thing, right? I mean, a lot of people do not want to do that. If they're known as engineer or a CPA or the IT guy, they don't want to know, what! Suddenly this guy's doing real estate.     Mark: Oh yeah. I mean, my CPA said, what are you doing? He did. Now he doesn't say it anymore. He did. He said, what are you doing? You're making a lot of money doing IT, why are you not doing it anymore? I mean, you know, he couldn't even comprehend it.   James: Yeah. And I have to mention this; when I was in IT, when I was an engineer, you know, I always think that people in IT, people who are engineers are really smart guys. So these are the smartest guys because that's what your circle is, right? Your circle of friends is there. You think this guy's smart solving problems. And I mean, I did my MBA, it was really eye-opening because I realized there are a lot smarter guys than me with a lot more money in the financial industry. So that was a big aha moment. And that's where I realized that you know, you have to go into business to make a lot more money. And there are a lot of other smarter guys in other smarter professions out there that make a lot more money. And so, I mean, before I forget what is the most valuable value add that you've seen in all your deals? What would you do in case your rehab budget got cut into half in a deal?   Mark: Oh, you mean from a CAPEX?    James: Capex wise, yes.   Mark: You know, one, people need to be...if the property looks like junk outside...I've been in properties that look good on the outside and they're not that great on the inside. But you need something outside to kind of attract you. And it could just be paint, you know, something so it's not dreary and dark, dark colors, you know, but using something a little bit more attractive color-wise for paint. Landscaping, simple stuff to do. It's basically thinking about what does a tenant see? When people say I'm going to do, you know, electrical work and you know, things like that. It's like the plumbing, stuff like that need to be done, but tenants don't see that. So first start with the outside and see what the tenants, you know, whether they go up to the office and it's kind of decked out.   Sometimes we'll spend a lot of money around the office to kind of put a lot of landscape in there and make it really nice, exterior wise. Interior, I mean, paint, it's pretty easy to do. Flooring is huge just from a maintenance standpoint. So if you can do it, but as you know, it's not that cheap to do floor and then we'll like resurface countertops. I wouldn't do cabinets and stuff like that if you don't have the budget for it. I wouldn't do appliances unless they need them. You're not going to get the bang for the buck for that. Again, people will see paint, they'll see flooring and they'll see like maybe surface countertops, paint the cabinets, things like that. But some people have really high aspirations. They want to do all these things, but at the end of the day, you're not living in the property so don't outdo the market. I won't be the first guy to prove something in a market, I let other people prove it first. But I would say for sure start with the outside. We start like with landscaping and paint, stuff like that. People can see that.   James: Got it, got it. Awesome. Mark. So we're at the end of the podcast. Do you want to tell our audience and listeners how to get hold of you?   Mark: Yes. An email address is Mark@thinkmultifamily.com and love the chat with anybody and I really, really appreciate you spending time with me today, James.   James: Sure, sure. Absolutely. Thanks for coming over. You had a lot of value. And I really like going across markets here because sometimes it's hard to find someone who has done deals in different markets, right. Because it's important. A lot of people want to do markets everywhere. I mean, there are deals everywhere so you just have to buy it right and you have to analyze it right. And, you know, just make sure the numbers work and the location works. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you, Mark.    Mark: All right, James. Appreciate your time.    James: Absolutely. Thank you. Bye.

James: Hi, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth, True Value at Real Estate Investing podcast. Today I have KK Singh, KK Singh is a big figure in our social media circles, especially in the multifamily and multi-families syndication. KK used to be a Microsoft Certified System Engineer. I like to call it MCSE because it's a pretty well known designation for system engineers and the Microsoft world; and KK also owns multiple businesses including gas station convenience stores, a Laundromat, and also he started a real estate with a 40 single family residential in Indiana. And currently he's an investor in almost 3000 units as a LP, and in some of it is a GP across all States in the US. And he also has done agriculture, commercial and residential property in India. And also, business experience, almost 10 to 19 years in the US, and is also looking for expansion opportunity. Hey KK, welcome to the show. KK: Hello. Thank you very much James for having me on your show. James: Sure, absolutely. Absolutely. So, KK let's get started with our show. I mean I got to know you like almost two years now. So you have been doing very well in terms of multifamily investing and especially you started as a passive and now you're going more into the GPU, but I want to go before that. So you are on a later part of your cycle and you did a lot of different businesses, Laundromat and gas station convenience stores. And so I want to go into that business before we go into multifamily. And then after that I want to compare that business to multifamily. And why did you, at this stage of your life, why did you want to do multifamily? Because there's a lot of people who want to really learn these different businesses. Like I always wonder how gas stations work. I always wonder how convenience stores work. How does a Laundromat work? And do they really make more money than what I'm doing right now in multifamily? So you are the best person to really tell us and our audience what are the different aspects of this business. So let's start with, I mean, you own gas station convenience store and Laundromat. So tell us about these three businesses. I mean, how does the business work? How much do people make? Even in that business, what are the values that you always see that it's very awful? KK: Well, I came to United States, as you said, Microsoft Certified System Engineer and I lost my job after 9/11. And it was just about six months before I came. So I had a job for about six months and I lost my job and my friends were in the gas station business in Indianapolis and they offered me a partnership in the business and they asked me to come and join their business. And so I decided, since I had no options, I decided to join their business as a partner. It was a gas station in Indianapolis. So I started managing that, I automated there, put it up because everything they were doing on papers with pen and paper. So I was a computer professional, so I did everything into computers. And soon we lost the lease because the owner did not renew the lease on that property. So I had learned the business because I had it for about a year. So I bought a gas station here in Fort Wayne after about a year and a half since I came to United States.   James: So, before we go to the other business, how does a gas station make money?   KK: Well, the gas station owners make money mostly on the inside sales. They don't make money on the gas. James: Oh, you don't make money on the gas? KK: But you don't make money on the gas. And most of the money is made on the convenience store side. So, first I bought one gas station and soon I had other people join me buying gas stations. Here I was, the first Punjabi to buy a gas station here in Fort Wayne. And soon I brought some of my friends, my relatives to buy gas stations here. So we formed a group and we started buying in bulk. And that way we made more money, we got more rebates; we got more kickbacks since we were buying in bulk. James: So the rebate and discounts that you get that's on the fuel price? KK: No, on the inside sales, mostly on the... James: On the inside sale?    KK: Yeah.   James: So, why does every gas station have different pricing in terms of fuel? KK: Because you have the right to price your own gas, whatever you want to. Some people like to make 5 cents; some people like to make 3 cents. Some people like to lose money on gas. James: So, I mean we are always wondering, I mean I'm sure I thought every gas station owner was trying to make some profit because every gas station has different pricing. So do they try to take it back on making more money by increasing the gas price slightly? I'm sure there's elasticity in terms of customer demand versus the gas price. KK: Well the street price is who rules the gas prices, the street pricing. So some people like to bring the customers in by losing money on the gas.   James: Oh.   KK: Or making less profit on the gas and they want to bring the customers to their lot and then bring them inside to the convenience store where they can make 35% instead of pennies. James: Interesting. I thought there will be some money being made on the gas, but looks like what you're saying is it was so little money, you may not make money or you lose money... KK: I've lost more money because 90% people these days use credit cards. And then on top of that, you end up paying credit card fee as well. James: Oh, so you have to pay, but is the price inside of convenience store slightly higher than what you get from Walmart or Walgreens or CVS? KK: Yes. Yes. That's why they're called convenience stores because they are for convenience. But, yeah. So it's like they have to pay for the convenience. James: Yeah. Which makes sense, I mean, I'm giving you space and the gas for almost all on my costs. Right. And now you come and pay a bit more on the convenience of, probably people don't care because it's convenient for them. That's absolutely right. That makes a lot of sense now because I always wondered this. So, is the gas station business being impacted with some of the electric costs that's being popular nowadays? KK: Well, we never made money on the gas anyways, so I don't think it's going to affect the people still going to buy their food and drinks and chips and candy and the cigarettes. So they do still come. I own an electric car myself but still, I stop at gas stations to...   James: Buy things   KK: Buy coffee, buy candy, and buy something. James: I think the location of it is much more convenient. I think that's how like even Buc-ee's, I'm not sure whether you know Buc-ee's in Texas they're very big. They have a lot of gas stations, like hundred gas stations outside and it's a big convenience store. KK: Yup. Yup. James: Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah. So it's like a big, slightly more expensive because it's very convenient.   KK: Correct.   James: Okay. So what about a Laundromat, how does that work? KK: Well, I had this lot sitting by my gas station for a long time. It was a vacant lot and I thought of buying it and utilizing it and this neighbourhood needed a Laundromat. There was a little lot like a block away from my gas station. There was a Laundromat, which were the old beaten up Laundromat, it had like 20 years old machines. So I thought that I can utilize this property and I did some creativity and bank that lot at a very low price. And I built a Laundromat from ground up with the best machines that they come, bigger machines. So immediately after I opened that Laundromat, the other one closed because it was all, nobody wanted to go there. So, and Laundromat is a good business too because you don't need the employees, so it's unattended. So I have a girl that comes in the evening and cleans up and somebody will go from the gas station and clean up or if there's any problems. So this is kind of a passive income. James: So you still have the Laundromat until now? KK: Yes, I do. And we are building another one. James: Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. So is this the machine with a speed queen? KK: No, [10:00 unclear] machines. James: [10:02 unclear], okay. Okay. KK: We have bigger machines, like 90 pounders, 60 pounders, 50 pounders. Yeah. James: I mean, the reason I ask about speed queen, because in my properties, I'd probably own a Laundromat as well, but indirectly, right, in all our apartments, I think 90% of our apartments, we own our own machines. So, we like to buy new machines, but this is for residential. So it may not be... KK: [10:28 Inaudible] is good too.   James: Okay. Okay.   KK: But that store is good for Laundromat, commercial and it's very simple to operate, and it's a sturdy machine as well. James: Got it. And have you ever tried to sell these gas stations and the Laundromat? KK: No. James: Okay. So you're keeping it for passive income? KK: I have a system in place and they are an automatic, autopilot, I mean. So, because I have partners in all my gas stations, they run the gas stations and I stay home. James: Okay, good. That's true passive income right. KK: Yeah. James: Now, the reason I asked you whether you sold is because I want to know how this business is being valued. KK: No, I haven't never sold any gas station. I have always bought gas station, and I would still buy a gas station if I get a good deal. James: So if it's passive income, why not you buy nationwide? KK: No, it's not passive income, it's not. It's passive income for me because I have my friends and family as partners who run the businesses for me. It's not passive income and I don't, people call me all the time and ask me if they can buy a gas station and rent it out and make more money than single family or real estate, no, it's not like that. James: So it's not as a, what I'm trying to say I guess is...   KK: It's not at all passive. It's just autopilot for me because I've done this for so many years and I have brought in partners and some of them are even my employees that I have partnered with. James: So they are the one who is active and you are investing money and for you it's passive. So it's not really passive income, but because you are a silent partner, you get passive income, I guess.    KK: Right. Correct.   James: So after that, how did you buy 40 single family residential? KK: Well. the seller was from our community, he met me at the church and he said, I want to sell my property that he had for several years. And I told him that I know somebody in Indianapolis that I can refer to. And he said, no, I want to sell them to you. And I said, no, I have never done this and I'm not going to get into the rental business, toilet and all that kind of stuff. He said, I will give you a good deal and I will teach you for a year how to do it. So that attracted me and I came home and talked to my nephew and at that time I didn't even know about [13:10inaudible] it is. So, I talked to my nephew, we calculated, we didn't get any financials or anything from him and we were comparing, I went online to the city website and check the prices compared to what he was offering us. So I liked the pricing of everything. I said, yes, the very next day I said, yes, we will buy your houses. And we went ahead and bought, we never hired an attorney. We just wrote up purchase agreement on my computer and we bought those 40 single family houses and then he started helping me. But he had done this for about 40 years now. So, but he was all old school, everything was on pen and paper. I didn't like that idea. So I had a lot of other stuff going on. I said, no, I would do it myself. So I bought some books, I went online, did some research and started managing myself and I still manage those 40 single families myself. James: That's a very inspiring story, right? Because where you going from zero to nothing, I mean to learning about how to operate 40 single family residential. So how did you learn to make that business in single family residential from the guy who's selling you, he's old school? So now you are a Microsoft certified system engineer. You are going to think on how to put everything into computer. What was the first website or resource that you used to start managing this 40 single family residential?   KK: Well, first of all, I started researching about the property management software and I did some research on the property management softwares and I found [15:06unclear].com the best software for my purpose. And the pricing was good, the features were good. And I signed up for a demo, I took a demo and liked it and I moved all my properties to [15:21unclear] James: I used [15:23unclear] as well for my single family residential, even though I only own like two right now, but we went through a few iteration of property management software for single family and then settled on [15:33unclear], which is pretty good for the single family and [15:38inaudible] management. KK: Correct. Correct. James: So you are in Indiana? So have you ever thought about looking other places for real estate or you wanted to do that? KK: No, I do my multifamily almost, I have one in Indianapolis and all others are out of Indiana. James: Got it. Got it. KK: So, right now I'm doing the 10th view as a general partner and I did seven deals as a passive investor. So all of them but one is in Indiana and all of them are out of Indiana. James: Okay. So I want to go to that transition where you were doing Laundromat, gas station and 40 single family residential, so, how did you get introduced to multifamily apartments? KK: Well, when I bought these single family houses and I went online to, I started researching on bigger pockets and read some books and I realized that it's not scalable and especially there's no tax advantage. That's why we bought these properties. We thought, oh, we can save money on tax. Because we were paying a lot of tax, we had a lot of cash-flow from the gas stations, so we were paying a lot of tax. But with buying single family, we ended up paying more tax because we made more money. So, I thought, no, we were here to save on taxes, so this is not the way to do it. So I started researching and finally as I learned about the syndication process and cost segregation, how people save money on the tax. So we started and I actually started investing passively and never thought I'm going to be active investor at that time because I had so much going on and I have like 15 companies. So, I thought, okay, I will keep doing it. But I'll keep investing my passively and get K-one losses and wash off other passive incomes. That's was my original plan, but when I started learning about multifamily and I learned that I have so much passion about multi-families, so why not do it actively? James: Yeah, no. So I want to go through the thought process here. So, what year was it that you discovered multifamily? KK: 2015. James: 2015, which is like what? Four years ago. KK: Yeah. Four years ago. James: And you say syndication, right? So even when you introduced to multifamily, did you look at buying a multifamily without syndication? KK: Yes, we did. We did four times. James: So you did buy some multifamily without syndication? KK: No, we didn't buy any. James: Oh you didn’t... KK: Because we were thinking of buying the same way we bought these houses. James: Got it. KK: So we didn't even know how to do underwriting, how to calculate the profit and loss. So we thought, okay, we bought these houses for so much and these are like just two room, one bedroom apartments so this should be half the price of the houses. That's how we started and we offered four alloys. First we started with the 32 unit and we went all the way to 96 units to buy, but every time we were overbid by others and we didn't know that we have to do underwriting and all that stuff that I realized after giving four alloys that we, no, this is not the way to do it. We need to start underwriting and they are not priced as the houses are, they are priced based on the net operating income. Then I started learning all that in 2015, and as I was learning, I was investing passively as well.   James: Got it, got it.   KK: I still kept investing and a couple of my partners started investing along with me too. So, we invested all over the nation in first three years, 15, 16, 17, and in 18 I decided to go at it. James: Why you didn't from single family, you were thinking of buying the large multifamily, which is like 40, 50, no, 90 units, right? Why you didn't look at duplexes, triplexes and fourplexes. KK: Oh, I taught duplex, triplex is the same thing as single family because we had the money, we had the resources, we could get the loan, we had the network, so we thought we can buy 30, 40 units. We never thought of buying smaller properties. James: Okay, so you wanted to go big because you think you can do it. It's just that you didn't have the knowledge on how do people underwrite this commercial properties? KK: And that I learned, that I learned soon after being overburdened, four of those alloy's that we did present. So I decided to learn and then I learned a lot and I attended several boot camps and took some courses, read a lot of books, listened to a lot of podcasts. So actually I had a passion for it. So I was spending like five, six hours a day, maybe even more, maybe eight hours a day. Just learning about multifamily. For six months, I never slept before midnight for six months. James: For six months you didn't sleep before midnight because you were so wowed with this multifamily.   KK: Yes. That's when I was learning about it, listening to podcast, every night I would listen to podcasts, read something about it, so I spent a lot of time learning this process James: And you said multifamily was more interesting compared to buying more gas station, Laundromat and the single family because of the tax advantage. That's what you're saying. So you need something to offset your passive business, I mean, active business income, I guess. KK: Well, I had a lot of passive income as well. Because I was not active in all the gas stations. I was passive in some gas stations and we own real states of several gas stations, and those LLC owned properties. And so our operating companies were paying rent to the real estate company. So that was my passive income as well. James: Oh. That's an interesting strategy there. So why not buy like a strip mall or warehouse or industrial warehouse or South storage? KK: I don't like anything else but multifamily. James: Why? Did you look at that [22:30inaudible]? KK: Yes, I did look at it; it's on my criteria as well. The second think I would ever buy would be storing units or the mobile park, but I would never go to commercial or anything because I know people need at least a roof to live somewhere. James: Okay, got it. So you think there's a definite need for a residential? KK: Yeah, because of the technology, you never know. Did you see the strip malls, commercial buildings closing industries, moving to Mexico, China, India and all those countries? But they can't move apartments to China. James: That's right. That's right. KK: But they have to live here. So, that's the only, I get a lot of other offers, but I am very, very strictly multifamily person. James: Yeah. Yeah. So let me give you some education to the listeners. So, what KK was talking about is the tax advantage that you get in multifamily, especially with something called depreciation, which is a paper loss which offset, which shows your income. Even though you're making cash-flow from a positive cash-flow from your operation in apartments depreciation is going to be more, most of the time it's going to be more than your cash-flow, which means you are, it shows as you're losing money, which means you probably don't pay any tax on your cash-flow; and sometimes net cash flow minus depreciation do come out positive, but the amount will be low because now you have depreciation. And in single family residential houses, you still do have depreciation, but it's divided by 27.5. But in commercial, which is apartment, you've either been doing divide by 27.5, you can still do 27.5 but you can also do something called cost segregation, which means they segregate each part of the building and commercial into five years, seven years, 15 years and 27.5 years? They separate the windows to seven years. I don't know what exactly the schedule is, but example windows took seven years, the driveway took 15 years. Frauding took five years. And what they do is they save all this 15 years for all five years, everything is segregated. And all this depreciation is accelerated in the first five to seven years and 15 years. And even the first five years it's like 30% of total depreciation. So, the number of, the amount of depreciation you get in apartments is like, it can be huge because of this cost segregation. And now with the tax law that we have in 2017 from 2017-2023 you have something called bonus depreciation, which means you are going to take all the 15 years schedule of depreciation, you're going to depreciate it in the first year, which used to be only available for new development. Which makes sense, new developments; everything done you'd appreciate 15 years into it. But now the new tax law have given leverage for the properties that has already been built. But this advantage only available until 2023 and after that it starts reducing to 50% instead of a hundred percent depreciation become 50% and depreciates less, and in other commercial real estate, like strip centre and warehouses and all that, is not depreciated by 27.5, it's depreciated by 39 years. So you can... James: 39 and a half? KK: Come again. James: 39 and a half. KK: 39 and a half. Okay. Thanks for clarifying, I thought it's 39. So 39 and a half, and what happened is you get much lower depreciation, they can do also cost segregation, but you know, you're going to get less number. And it makes perfect sense for farmers because of the Maslow hierarchy of needs as well. Everybody needs a shelter to stay.  And especially because of those appliances they have, the kitchens, the counters, kitchens, fridge, the microwave and the stove, those things get depreciated in the very first five years. And you can get all that in the very first year. James: Yes, yes, correct. Correct. So that's an awesome tax strategy in apartment and that's what we call this multifamily apartment. So let's go ahead. So, you said you started learning how to value the apartment and at 2015 you learned the trick about how to trade. So, why not at that time you go and buy apartments, why did you go passive? KK: Well, at that time I was still managing the Laundromat and one gas station myself. And after about two years in 2017, my son-in-law, my daughter got married in 2015 and her husband came to United States in 2017. I asked him, he was a competitive engineer too, I asked him what he wants to do and he said I want to be in the business. He owned a gas station in Canada as well. So he migrated from Canada. So he started doing what I was doing. So, I was only managing these 40 single family houses and most of my stuff was on autopilot, so I had nothing else to do. I decided to go active. So that's when I started looking to do syndication myself. James: Okay. No, but my question was, like I mean after you learn all the tricks on how to underwrite multifamily, right, why did you still go with a passive investment KK: That's why, because I was busy managing my gas station, single family houses and Laundromat myself.   James: Oh. So, now your son-in-law is taking care of that, now you, okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Now you have all the time to really be an active sponsor, I guess. KK: Correct. James: So, okay. Okay. How did you make that transition from being a passive to active? Because that's a day and night skills. KK: And you should know that too because you are sitting on this side right hand side and Jeff Green well he was sitting on my left hand side and San Diego mastermind. James: Oh, I must have influenced you. KK: Yeah. Something came, I pulled some of your power and Jeff offered me to be a general partner on his deal. James: That must be my [29:08inaudible] KK: Yeah. So I said, okay, I will be your general partner. I raised money for his deal to close. So that was my first transition and I was so much motivated by meeting all those people that like the mastermind in San Diego last March when I did the deal.   James: Yeah. That's very interesting. Sometimes this mastermind brings, the proximity is power. You have people who are doing it and you know that you can do it if you have the right support. And sometimes, certain words and certain discussions can motivate you to progress. So it's very, very powerful concept of mastermind. Sometimes people thinks that you go from mastermind, you are wasting time. You're talking but there are always influencers, especially in a small setting compared to going into like this large conferences where you go and just network, right. This is not so contagious, but in a small group setting, it can be contagious and that's good, so you are able to, yeah, I know when we were in the mastermind we were talking about, you are passive and I didn't know that was the time that you were transitioning. You decided to transition from GP. KK: That same day I did it and he emailed me all the information and when I was coming from San Diego, I was looking at the costar report, underwriting and everything on the plane from San Diego to Chicago all night. James: I have to give credit to myself too. KK: Yeah. The credit goes to you too. James: That's good. That's good. I hope so. I mean, I'm sure you would have some calling to or for you as well. But I've been, I'm happy to help out as well. So, KK, what was your discovery when you, from a passive investor, I mean, you were of before, let's assume that mastermind was a transition period. At that point before that you were a passive investor, your mindset is completely different. You just want to invest passively. You didn't want to do any active role, maybe its fun, it's interesting, but you just didn't want to do it. But once you step over into the GP side where you partner with another sponsor. So how do you think your mindset has changed from passive to become an active? KK: Well, my mindset changed back in 2017 because I had learned so much. I was thinking, why don't I put all this knowledge to work? Why I am just investing passively. But as I told you that when he took over, so I was completely free. And I stayed home and there was not much, and I have so much of my single family management on autopilot that I spend about nine hours a week. So I had nothing else to do, and I decided to move on to, and I started looking on deals before my mastermind, I did start looking deals and I did some [32:19inaudible] the properties and I did give some alloys as well, and I learned the business practically by doing it. And then it was, I think a miracle happened when you did something at the mastermind that I got a deal. And I also learned that it is teamwork. It's not something that I can do myself. It is teamwork. So I think that was a great opportunity for me when Jeff offered me that deal and they were in, they were very close to the closing. So, I raised the money in about three days and became a member of his asset management team where I learned a lot as well. And after that I did a one deal with Radcliff and Robert in Lexington, Kentucky in May, we closed that in May and now I'm a general partner on a deal with Viking Capital on a 92 unit, a B class asset in Marietta, Georgia, North of Atlanta. James: Got it. So let's assume KK, so now you have moved to become more on the active side, right? Part of the asset management team. So if I split you into two, your best friend is your older, KK Singh as the passive investor and now is the right one. The right side, KK is the active investor, what would you turn to your passive investor, best friend and say what are the advice that you want to give to your KK Singh a passive investor on how to invest smartly as a passive investor? Since now you know both sides. KK: Well, even when I was a passively investing, I was learning continuously because the very first deal I didn't know much about multifamily. So I just invested to see how it works. So I just wrote a check to Ivan Barrett for 50,000 and I invested in his deal in Dayton, Ohio, but after that I realized that I need to learn about the passive as well. And I like reading a lot, listening, and reading and so I started learning how to invest passively and I prepared a list of like 42 questions, which I was asking. And then I started investing with Joe [34:53inaudible] in his deals in Dallas and I didn't want to put all eggs in the same basket. So I tried some other syndicators other markets as well before I finally decided to go active. James: Got it. So, out of that 40 questions that you have in your passive investor checklist, and don't worry, I'm not going to ask you to do all the 40 questions, but is there any like five to 10 questions you think all passive investors should ask before investing in any deals? James: I think the most important thing is in this all the syndication process is the operator. So I always even tell my investors the same thing that I did myself. I always looked at the operator. Who is the operator? Who is their team? Do they have an office? Do they have a complete set up? And then do they have a track record? Have they gone through a full cycle? So I always look at that first, even as a passive investor, even as a general partner, I do the same thing; and the second thing is the market. What market is the property in? So does that property market have a rent growth, continuous rent growth? Does that market have a continuous population growth? Are the companies moving to that area? Is it a bigger like population over 200,000? I don't invest in smaller cities. So those are the second things, and then I move onto the property. Is it really a value added property? Every property sale, value add property, sometimes there's no value at all or there is no rent growth. I have seen like people wrote, right, 300 rent bump. Do you think the previous owner was dumb? So he was $300 below market. It doesn't happen all the time. So I prepared a list of questions. I learned how to do all the comps, sales comps, rent comps, and I do get my investor do the same thing as well. James: Got it. So what you're talking about is operators, the second is the market, third is the deal, which is absolutely the right priority. So let's say for a new passive investor, how do they find about, before we go there, can you define what's an operator is? KK: Well operator is the guy who finds a deal, brings it under contract, signs the loan or brings the team together, or if they already have the team, and then after the closing they operate, they make sure they are performing as for performer, the property management in place is working, doing a good job. And they are giving the reports quarterly or monthly, whatever information to the investors and also paying the investors as promised. James: So how can a passive investor know about the operator? I mean, without asking the operator directly because sometimes it's hard to know. I mean, as I say, a new passive investor comes, sometimes they are very shy to ask a lot of questions because they are worried that they will not get into the deal. But is there any other way that a new passive investor can find out about the operator without asking the operator directly? KK: Well, they shouldn't be shy. I even asked the operator if you die, I go that far, if you die.   James: Absolutely. KK: Yeah. I mean, I don't mind if somebody asks me if you die, where are we going to ask for our [38:57inaudible] or money? I mean, it's obvious if somebody could die in a second. Yeah. So there has to be some things in place that if somebody dies who's going to take care of. So I think that should be and I have uploaded those 42 questions on my Tenex Facebook group several times and Radcliff has those 42 questions on his website. I think passive investors should download there as well. But I can tell you how people find me. They follow me everywhere on social media. They check my profiles and they listen to my podcast and then they approach me, oh we know you for a year or two; I saw your video live or podcast. So they probably know everything before they come and contact me unless they are referred to me by someone who is already in my investor or my friend. So they trust me too. James: Yeah, I mean that's true. I mean once you are... KK: I'm very active on social media so people know what I do. James: Yes, yes, yes. Correct. Correct. Correct. So what about market? Can you tell the audience, especially passive investor, any specific resources they can go and see before investing in the market? I mean, I know you said you do not want smaller cities, you want big cities, but what else they should look for in a market before they even invest even passively? James: Well they should, first of all, we talked about the operator and then the market research is very important. They should look at there are so much free services available, ctdata is one of them. James: ctdata.net? KK: ctdata.com   James: dot com, okay.   KK: Dot com and they can go there at least or just write down population and there will be a population of so and so city. They'll get so much information and there's another world review website that it will automatically pop up under the CTdata and you can go there, research the market, sub-market and even the neighborhood.   James: So have you seen any deals that was presented to you as a, I mean when you are a passive investor, when you presented to you that you think are this guy, he didn't underwrite the deal as conservatively as he is claiming. I mean, everybody claims their underwriting yes. KK: All the time. Right. All the time. James: It's like a value add. Right. All deals are value add. Same thing, all lead sponsors, all our sponsors are saying all their deals are written conservatively, they fill up quickly. KK: Some people are very smart to write their OMs and they'll write it in such a way that a passive investor who's not very literate about the multifamily. And if they don't have time to do their own research, they can fall in that net very easily because they are written so smartly. So they don't understand. And they don't spend much time either. James: Yeah. But how do you, can you give us a few example where you were able to cut some, I would say... KK: The biggest one is the comps. James: It's the comps. Okay. KK: And the second thing is the rent growth. Sometimes they'll write 3% rent growth and they will say, oh, it's very conservatively written. And I have been managing these houses since 2014 I have never seen 3% going up every year. I mean there has to be some year when it's going to be down, it might go up to 3% again, but all five or seven years or 10 years, whatever the whole time is. They don't go up all the time. And another thing is the vacancy. A lot of times they will write the vacancy or we can, we're going to have it 95% occupied, but when you look at the four star report or others resources, the market occupancy is at 90%. So how can you do it 95% if the market is at 90%? So some of those assumptions they make are sometimes very aggressive. James: So you say rent comp, and use also talked about the comps? So you're talking about the rent comp that they are projecting? KK: Rent comps, rent comps, they are projecting this and sometimes I've seen on the OMs, they are not comparing apples to apples. They're comparing one bedroom to three bedrooms and then they'll say, oh, there is a threat, $315 rent bump. You're not comparing apples to apples.   James: Do you think they make a mistake or they just...? KK: They intentionally do it and nobody can challenge that either because they don't, they say nothing there that it is three bedroom compared to one bedroom. So that OM doesn't say that we are comparing one bedroom. It's just going to say that apartment has this rent and this apartment has this rent. And they'll show you that there is a $300 bump which is not true. So far, I never seen a bump more than $150. James: And even 150 is difficult to get, so yeah KK: No more than $150. I have seen up to $150 which is also, as you said, by renovating, adding like $500, $600 to the unit, you might be able to raise the rent by a hundred or $150 maximum. James: Very interesting. So was there any aha moment as a active sponsor, as active person, more on the GP side now that you think like in the past six to eight months that you think, oh, I've learned something new about multifamily. Can you share it with the audience? KK: I always learn every day, every day I get some new experiences. I learned new things from sometimes even from people who know nothing about multifamily, but sometimes they teach you with, and I am very motivational and I'm motivated myself. I try to motivate my members in my Tenex group as well. Like every day you learn, in this business, every day you learn some thing new. James: So, I mean, so you had been pretty successful in investing into multifamily and now you're going more into the GP, so what do you think is the most I would say secret sauce to your success? KK: First of all, and I would also suggest to your audience, which I didn't do, but I didn't have to pay the price, but somebody might end up paying the price. I would say invest in yourself, that means learn the process yourself before you invest in any real estate, it could be single family, multifamily, any kind of real estate, do your homework first and don't be scared to spend some money on yourself, your personal development and learning and boot camps. Those are really helpful and I will, when I started learning at bigger progress, bigger progress always said that you don't have to have a coach, you don't have to attend any boot camps and everything. But when I got out of that mindset, I said, no, I got to go checkout some boot camps. It doesn't matter if I have to spend some money. And I realized that I learned a lot, I got motivated a lot. And also when I was holding myself accountable to do something. So, it's before that it was flow free flow. So, whatever I could do, if I got a deal, I would go ahead and make an appointment. Go look at that deal and end up there. But I think these things help, these Facebook groups, these masterminds, these boot camps, there are all these real estate, multifamily events, all of them help.   James: Got it. So it helps in terms of giving you some guidance to move ahead or give you some motivation or how does, or give you some knowledge? KK: So, as long as you have knowledge, you feel very comfortable doing something. James: Got it. KK: If you get out of your comfort zone and have knowledge and once you have the knowledge, you feel very comfortable doing anything. If you don't have knowledge, you always in fear, you get scared, or what if I do this? What if I can't raise the money? What if I, so there's lot of questions. Once you have the knowledge, you know that you will be able to do this. If you have a good deal, the money will come. And I hear a lot of people saying they're on Facebook as well, that a lot of people say that if you have a deal, money will come. We have a deal, but we can't raise the money. So that means something is wrong with your deal. James: Especially on this market cycle, where there's a lot of capital chasing the small number of deals, the true deals, I mean there are a lot of deals, but most deals are 98% of the deals doesn't really underwrite well as what it used to be. KK: I was looking at underwriting yesterday, this property had since 2015, the occupancy is 60,000 and all of a sudden now it's on sale it's at 90%. I looked at the costar report. I said what? Within the last three months, it went up to from 60% to 90%. James: Hey, hold on, hold on, hold on. KK: Okay. I looked at this deal yesterday and since 2015 I looked at the CoStar report and since 2015 the occupancy was at 60% and then the last four months it went from 60% to 90% because now it's on sale. James: On sale. Yeah, correct. Correct. You have to be very, very careful about these kinds of deals. I mean, unless it's an experienced operator, you are ready to go and turn it around; otherwise it's just going to be difficult to once you take over.   KK: And I think they already offered a little bit more money, but now the broker wants them to raise their price. I said, don't even raise a penny. Whatever you have offered is already on the higher side, but a lot of times they want that kind of money and they can get, because somebody else will pay. And I told this guy that somebody else will pay more, but they're going to be in trouble. James: Correct. Correct. Right. I mean, market is saving a lot of people out there right now. Right. People have all paid in bills and made a lot of mistakes in the underwriting. But market has been saving a lot of them for the past nine years. I mean, a rising tide raises all ships, so it's okay to make mistakes now, but it may not be okay when the market turns. Because now you'll see who is in trouble once the tide comes down. So, you have to be very, very careful right now KK: The market is at such speed now, tending to slow down. So it, people should be very careful and they should do their sensitivity analysis as well. Do the stress testing on their deals to make sure that they will survive if the market sort turns a little bit. James: So KK, can you, is there any proud moment in your life, in your business life that you think you cannot forget? That's going to be that if you really think you know, the next 10 years, one proud moment that you think that you always really proud that you did something. KK: I think I have been always proud of what I did because I do my homework before I do anything. I've spent a lot of time researching when I built a Laundromat. I had spent about a year the same way and I am very proud that I spent that time and I'm making a lot of money on that Laundromat and it's a very successful business. James: So you do, I mean, you're proud that you're doing a lot of research before you entering into a new venture. So... KK: Correct, correct. James: And if you want to let our audience know how to find you KK: Oh, I am very easy to find. They can go to Facebook and I have a Facebook group, Tenex multifamily investment group, and we have a little over 3000 members in about six months. I think we started the group at the same time. James: Yeah. You started late but you are slightly ahead of our group right now. KK: Yeah. And that's where they can find me. They can ask me questions and every Tuesday I have a zoom calls where they can come and join us and learn something, network. And they can ask me questions as well face to face, every Tuesday, nine o'clock Eastern time. And the zoom link is always in the Tenex Facebook group and then they can reach me through our website as well growrichcapital.com, or they can call me on my cell phone, 260-341-1964. James: All right, sounds good. So KK thanks for coming for the show. You add a lot of value. I like to, I mean I think I really found a lot of nuggets because you moved from different, different businesses to multifamily. I think that was very helpful because a lot of listeners could be doing other businesses and always wonder why not that business, why not this business? Right. And then why multifamily? So you, I think you summarize it pretty well and I think you, I think I did get a golden nugget of a few golden nugget when you move from passive to active, right? And how that transition worked out and your thought process when you go to that whole process. So appreciate you coming on board. Thanks for coming and that's it. KK: Thank you very much for having me, James. James: Yeah, most welcome. Thanks KK. KK: Love to be back on your show again, sometimes when I'm a bigger syndicator James: You are already a big syndicated. Thanks KK. KK: Thank you. Thank you.      

James: Let's get started. One, two, three... Hi, audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Investment Group. Today we are going to be having JC Castello from our Achieve Wealth True Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. And I would like to welcome JC to the podcast. Hey JC, welcome. JC: Hey, thanks, James. Thanks for having me. James: So JC has what? Right now, around 725 units worth around 70 million and he has bought and sold like 1000 over units. And he primarily focuses on DFW and he's in the Bay area. So, did I get all your facts right, JC? JC: Yeah. You got in just about right. That's right. James: So, do you want to tell our audience about, how did you get started? How is your company structured? Because your company structure, it's very interesting for me. So go ahead and do that. JC: Yeah, I mean, how I got started in the multifamily business. I have an engineering degree and I've been working in the technology sector in a past life for about 15 to 20 years in semiconductors. And somewhere along the way, I always had a big passion for real estate. Pretty early on in my semiconductor career, I started buying single-family rentals in the Silicon Valley area and realized that I needed to be able to scale it a lot better because I was so busy with work that managing single-families wasn't all that easy. So I started just going to a lot of networking events, real estate clubs and whatnot, asking a lot of questions of people and I found out about apartments and found out that they were a lot more scalable. And so, I read everything I could. I got my hands in all kinds of books and went to lots of different seminars and training and networked with a bunch of the local investors here in Silicon Valley. I had sold a couple of my single-family homes originally wanted to buy an apartment complex here in San Jose. And I did all the numbers and it was negative cash flow, pretty much from the beginning. And I thought, well if I'm gonna buy for equity because there's no cash flow, I'd rather just keep buying homes because I think homes in Silicon Valley are better equity drivers than an apartment complex. So that led me to really look outside of California for cash flowing apartment investments. And I did a lot of research and everything was telling me that Texas was a great area to go. I mean, this was back in like 2004/5. And so, after a little bit of research and some time passed about 2006/7, I was ready to kinda go and take my money out to Texas and get it going. And so kind of, that's how I got started and that's kind of how my company was born. James: Awesome. Awesome. So, yeah, I was in the Bay area a couple of days back and I'm meeting some of my investors. It's just so crazy, the prices there. And I mean, one of the investors asked me, 'You know, why don't you buy in this area?" I said, "I like to make money from thin air." Then he asked, "How is that?" I said, "I like my tenants to pay for my mortgage." So which means I want it to be cash flowing and I still get cashflow on top of it. So pay the mortgage and get cash flow. So if you buy in the Bay area or even in LA, I mean, a lot of coastal cities, just the cap rate is so low, you know, you basically, appreciation play, which means you buy the deal and you pray that it's going to go up. Right? So, JC: Yeah. And look, I'm not here to tell you or tell anybody that investing in real estate in California is not a good thing. It's actually a very, very good thing. I mean, I own personal homes here in California and various places and they've been great investments for me, but they're not cash flow investments; they're equity plays. And so over the 10, 20, 30 years, absolutely; it's been phenomenally great, including any of the single family rentals that I had in the past. But I like to buy single family homes here in an equity state and I like to buy cash flowing properties for apartments in other more cashflow yielding places like Texas. So that's kind of my investment philosophy. James: Got it, got it. So you started like in 2006, 2007. So at what point of your life was that, were you working at that time and how did you get that aha moment, okay, I need to invest in real estate? JC: Yeah. Well you know, in 2001 and you would know this, James, I think you're an ex tech guy, there was the whole technology bubble burst. And I was several years out of college in a professional working environment, got laid off from an engineering job and that really caused me to do a little bit of reflection in 2001 after September 11 hit. And that's kind of where I had my aha moment, if you will. And right around that time, I read Rich Dad/ Poor Dad by Robert Kiyosaki, which changed my perspective on things as did I know a lot of other people. And it taught me about assets and liabilities first and foremost. Assets put money in your pocket, liabilities take money out of your pocket. And I realized that even though I had been a young guy that had been successful and, and bought my own single-family home, really, it wasn't putting money into my pocket because it was a liability. I had to pay the mortgage every month. So long story short, I decided that I was going to start investing in rental real estate as I got back into my next technology job, once the sort of 2001 recovery happened and that's what I did. Ever since then, I was like, look, real estate rentals are going to be what the thing that I'm going to do is and I'm pretty passionate about it anyways. I always liked real estate, so that's exactly kind of how I got started on my path. And I worked all the way up at my job until 2011 which is when I effectively left my W2 semiconductor job. I actually also helped start another company up with a couple of my other buddies from my ex-technology company. And so we did a startup company that was successful as well. And we did that from about 2012 to 2018. Actually the company's still going, but I'm no longer part of it. So I like to work really hard. James, I'll tell you that much. James: That's crazy. So, I mean, you are a tech guy. I mean, I didn't know until we talk a few months back on how many similarities we have. I used to be in the semiconductor industry as well. So I mean, why not you looked at stock at that time? I mean a stock used to be like, I mean a lot of engineers, like for me, I was like intrigued with stocks. I was always saying, let me solve the worldwide puzzle here of the stock market. So did you try that as well? JC: Yeah, definitely in my younger years. I mean, I drank the Koolaid like everybody else, you know, I was in love with the stock market. And I saw tech stocks, every day going up like gangbusters. So it was like, okay, let's pick Broadcom, let's pick Cisco, let's pick all these other tech stocks that were going to make us all multi-millionaires. And it was kind of a wild ride because there would be some big ups and then there would be some big downs. And so, it just got really frustrating because I find myself thinking about how our stocks were doing every day and sort of checking in on E-Trade accountants and seeing whether I had made money or lost money. And I just said, look, it's not worth it. I don't want to live like that. So, I think what I've learned since then is, look, I'm not here to say that the stock market isn't a great investment. I think what I'm here to say is that a financial advisor that's worth his salt is going to tell you that you should definitely have a good healthy mix of stocks, bonds, money market, and alternative assets, which real estate certainly fits the bill. And I think that 10 to 20% is about what people recommend that are financial experts in terms of how much you should be allocated to things like real estate. So I'm a big believer that people should never swing too much any one way. Make sure and be a little bit diversified, but certainly, 10 to 20% at least in real estate is a good healthy number. James: Got it. Yeah, I mean, I was intrigued with stocks as well and you know, it's all technical analysis. I did a lot of book reading and trying to solve and you know, Japanese candlesticks books and all that. But I think it works with a lot of fear and emotion. I mean, fear is great, it works with a lot of emotions. Which is, you can say numbers don't lie but in the stock market, the numbers can be manipulated using fear and greed by big institutions and that's where I got caught. Every time I go to stock markets, I lose money. JC: And the other thing too, I think the other thing that's important to understand is, it's not just about how much you're making before tax. One of the things that I think I'd made the mistake of as a younger person was not fully understanding how to invest with maximum tax sheltering and maximum tax advantage. And one of the things that I've seen with real estate investing is that there are huge tax incentives out there. Everything legal that encourages you as a real estate investor to keep doing it. And there are extremely, especially now with the tax cuts and jobs act that was passed and that went into effect in November of 2017. The benefits of the tax sheltering piece of real estate investing is extremely phenomenal. And so I think that the real aha moment is not just that you can invest in real estate and make good cash flow, but it's that you can invest in real estate, make good cash flow, and not pay taxes on that cash flow that you're putting in your pocket. That's really amazing. James: Got it, got it. So, coming back to your transition from a W2 job to a full-time real estate entrepreneur. So you said you started in 2006, but only after quite a number of years. When did you become a full-time person? JC: 2012. James: Okay. So what were you thinking in 2012, beginning January of 2012, what were you thinking and when did you resign and what was that trigger that allowed you...? JC: Well, you know, the trigger was, as I told you, I'm a 'slow and steady wins the race' type of person. My investment philosophy is 'go long, not short'. I always like to take the long route cause I believe in taking as little risk as possible to get where you want to get. So, I stayed with my company and my job for a long time and maybe even longer than I needed to because I also did another company with a couple of other buddies. But what that did was that gave me a real stable base so that I was never taking any risk. And so my route in real estate has never been to take big risks and I apply that same philosophy to our company in the way that we buy properties and the way that we look to partner with investors. We are always going to take the lower risk path. We're not just looking at yields and looking for the highest yields. We're looking for the highest mix of risk-adjusted returns. That's what we're looking for. And so that is I think a fundamental piece of why my journey took a little bit longer, in terms of transitioning away from a W2 job. James: So did you have a goal of a certain income level, a certain percentage of your W2? I mean, you don't have, tell me the percentage, but was that goal that you decided if I hit this much income in real estate, okay, I'm going to go full time into this. I'm okay to let go of my...? JC: Yeah. I mean, I definitely had some numbers in mind and they were, obviously, based on my costs of living. So as soon as I was able to bring in enough free cash flow that was greater than or equal to my cost of living with some margin, then I was comfortable exiting. And so, I think that's an important consideration for anybody that's doing this stuff. And you want to make sure, you know, you don't need to be necessarily significantly positive, but your costs of living, whatever it is, you should really be able to at least cover that. And I'm not talking about with like, you know, I'm talking about just with money coming in from rentals and whatnot, not talking about, you know all the other fees and whatnot that you generate. James: Yeah. Yeah. Correct. I mean, just advice to whoever listening. Sometimes you go for the weekend boot camp and you think that there's no point of working a W2 job. I mean, there's no such thing, right? I mean, real estate is awesome but it takes time to get to a certain level of income. And especially if you have [13:22unintelligible] in life, just don't give up on your work and go into real estate; take it slow and steady and you will get there. I mean, there's a lot of learnings to be done in real estate anyway that you can't learn in a weekend boot camp. JC: It's very, very wise words. And I hope that anybody out there would listen to that. James: Yeah, absolutely. So now you're in California, right? I mean, I don't know which year was this. So now you look at Dallas. Why did Dallas flash in front of your eyes? Why not Phoenix or Austin or Orlando, Tampa? JC: Well, Texas, as a whole. When I was doing my research, one of the big stats that jumped out to me was that I believe it was in 2008...I think it was 2008, Texas became the number two state in terms of the number of Fortune 500 companies headquartered in the state. It actually surpassed California. And before that, I had seen a lot of data that was telling me that this transition was happening from a corporate side. And from a corporate side, as we all know, Texas has a very business-friendly state. And I also saw a lot of migration patterns that were happening that were driving people away from the coastal areas, specifically California, and driving them to Texas. Also to Pheonix but not in the sheer magnitude that they were going to Texas. So really for me, what convinced me to go to Texas was the data and it was the job growth, the population growth. And the other thing that really convinced me was the quality of life that could be had in Texas for a relatively low amount of money. Back in 2006, when I first started buying out there, you could buy a pretty decent home for 150 to $200,000 in Dallas, Fort worth. Now, of course, you know, I had to decide, you know, it wasn't just Texas, it's where you're going to go in Texas. There are basically four major areas you can go; you can go to Houston, you can go to San Antonio, you can go to Austin or you can go to DFW. I chose DFW because Houston, to me, was a little bit more of an oil-based economy so I didn't like being dependent on oil. If the oil was good, everything's good in Houston. If oil goes bad, it can be a little bit difficult. And Austin, I really, really liked; I continue to love Austin. However, I always knew that Austin was like Silicon Valley. The dirt is very expensive, so the cap rates are a little bit lower so they don't cash flow quite as well. But I still do like Austin if I had to say, the second market in Texas. San Antonio is just sort of a little bit slow and steady. There's really no significant job growth, at least not significant, you know, amazingly. And there's slow and steady population growth. So everything in San Antonio is hunky-dory for a long time, but there's no real like superstar momentum there. DFW, on the other hand to me, had a lot of the characteristics that I felt was perfect for an investment home for me. I wanted to be there for 10, 20, 30, 40 years. They've got a very diverse economy, lots of different jobs sectors and they are tops in the nation for job growth, population growth, consistently. And the quality of life there is very, very good. There are 8 million people, 4th largest metroplex in the nation behind New York, one; LA, two and Chicago three. And actually, of those top three, they're all sort of negative population. So meaning, they're losing people in Texas; Dallas Fort worth is gaining. So for all those reasons, I thought back then that this would be a great place for us to go set up shop and I haven't been disappointed. It's been a great run, to be honest with ya. James: Got it. So now you decided on Dallas. What was the first step? I mean, who did you first establish contact with and how did you build your team? JC: Yeah, you know I was a big believer in shadowing people. So I had a couple of friends that I had met and gotten to know in the local Silicon Valley real estate circles who were buying apartments in Dallas. And so, I would shadow them. I would get on a plane and go with them when they would go check on their properties. And because they saw that I was willing to do that, they took me around to the local brokerage shops, Marcus & Millichap and all the other shops and they introduced me to all the brokers. And because these guys were already doing deals and established when the brokers met me, I had a little bit of credibility, not much, but I had more than just if I had come in on my own without them saying that I was a good guy. So that's the way that I got my start in the apartment world in Dallas, coming from California. James: Got it. So, I mean, if I understand your business, you own the asset management, but you also own your own property management company. JC: That's correct. Yeah. We opened up shop in 2013. We integrated the third party operations in house and we formed our own management company and we've been managing our own properties since then. James: So that's really unique because I mean, even for me, we have our own property management company, but we are here in Austin, San Antonio, so we are locals. But how did you do it from California and then you establish a property management company and why did you decide to do that rather than a third-party property management company? JC: Well, the how and the why. The why, I sometimes ask myself why multiple times. But I know after getting through all the hard times and now that we've got a model that works really, really well, I know that it was worth it for us. Because we have a large degree of predictability by having operations in house. I never throw stones at third party management companies because I've walked a mile in their shoes now. And I think it's a difficult business even when you control it yourself. And I think that third party managers, for the most part, are extremely good. I'm not here to say that we have built a significantly better mousetrap, but what we do have is we have a mousetrap that we built. And so, we know the process of how we go to market with it and we know what the numbers are and so, we have a high degree of predictability for our investors. At the end of the day, it's all about making sure that we deliver what we said we're going to do for our investors. And so the predictability piece that we have by having the operations in-house for us is key. How did I do it? You know, it wasn't easy. I think that you have to look for a superstar person that you can find that has enough talent to be able to sort of get this off the ground in the local market that you've built your portfolio in. And I was fortunate enough to find that person through a lot of hard work and some luck. And once I found that person, I knew that it was going to work and that was the big difference for me. James: And when you started in 2013, how many units did you have that you were convinced that you can have your own property management company? JC: It wasn't that many. I think we had maybe four properties, maybe five properties, something like that. James: Like a few hundred units. JC: Yeah. A few hundred units. Yeah, that's right. James: So who was this first person, what was that person's role? I mean, you don't have to name names, but I want to know the role of that person. JC: I mean, they were the VP of Operations. That's what they did. Everything related to operations was what they were responsible for. James: So you hired VP of Operations and from VP of Operation, the other person hired the rest of the crew? JC: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, look, we're only 725 units currently, so we don't necessarily have a bunch of regional managers working for our company and we're set up a little bit differently than sort of your traditional management companies. But what I will say is that you really need that foundational person, that foundational piece if you want to have a successful operation in any one given market. James: Okay. Okay. Got it. But what was that aha moment in 2012 that you said, okay, I can't do this anymore 2013, I'm going to do my own property management? What was that push over the cliff moment that you said, okay, I'm giving up on this? JC: You know, I can't say that there was any one particular thing. I think that it was always our strategy to open up our own shop because we wanted to make sure that we had a high degree of predictability within the operations piece. And that's a very valuable component for our investment partners. Being fully integrated doesn't mean much unless it provides good predictability for returns. And what we've seen is that we've enjoyed a very, very high degree of predictability with having our own operations piece. So we're going to continue to have that as part of our model, but at the same time, we're never completely committed to any one particular thing. So meaning that we have a fiduciary duty to do what's best for our investors. If at any given time we understood that our operations or our management piece wasn't the best strategy, then we would certainly look at divesting that piece. I don't see that happening, but we're always open to making sure that we're doing the best thing for our investors. James: So how frequently do you travel from California to Dallas to manage this operation? JC: Well, I tried to get out there, my wife will say I'm out there all the time and I sometimes look back at my calendar and go, yeah, I think she might be right. But usually, it works out to be about six to eight weeks time, is how long I'm out there. And I'm usually out there for a couple of days and I get back to the home base. James: So six to eight weeks through it the year? JC: Right. James: Got it. Got it. So you've tried maybe like once a month or less than once a month, depends on...? JC: Yeah. And it's really as needed too because I have a pretty good system. So I mean, I can jump on a plane tomorrow morning and so it just depends. I get out there as needed, you know, immediately when needed. James: Okay. So let's go into the operational aspects. So you're in California, your operation management, the whole company is here. You have a VP of Operations, you are sitting that you're not coming to Dallas. So tell me like in a week, how would you manage this operation? Is it through Zoom calls, through weekly meetings, through properties or how do you do your asset management? JC: Well, first of all, asset management is handled by a separate person at our company, at multifamily property group. So we do have an asset management person. And in terms of operations, I think as you rightly pointed out, there's a lot of things that we do with technology these days to make it pretty efficient to be managing from another state; Zoom meeting, like what we're doing here is a great one. Lots of phone calls, lots of emails. And also I'm a big believer in driving the company by key performance indices or indicators. And so KPIs, for us, are a big deal because we pretty much keep on top of the numbers from a day to day basis and we manage according to how the numbers are telling us to manage and we go deep where we see that we're having issues with any one particular area. And so, we have a pretty structured way about how we monitor what's happening on the operations piece. And everybody's got a pretty strict lead defined set of roles and responsibilities, which kind of helps to keep everything in motion even though I'm not in the Dallas area. James: Got it. So how frequent do you look at your financials? JC: How frequently do we look at it? I mean, almost every day. James: Okay, good. So when you look at it everyday, what are the KPIs that you look for to see whether the properties are in the right direction or not? JC: Yeah. The big ones we're going to track are income to budget. We're gonna track expenses to budget, especially repairs and maintenance and CAPEX. A CAPEX, the budget, we're going to track, we're going to track current vacancy and we're going to track future vacancy. We're also going to pay strict attention to resident retention; how many people are actually renewing their leases? One of the things on the operational piece that we've learned along the way is that you have basically with the property, you've got a front door and you've got a back door. The front door is where you lease the new units and you bring the new residents in. And the back door is where you have people either renewing their leases after they've been there for a year or you have them leaving your property. And we like to talk about closing the back door because if we can get people to renew their leases, that is worth literally thousands of dollars in expenses and vacancy and marketing to our profitability. So, I think as operators and as investors, we always want to think about buying a property and renovating it and filling it up with people. But we should more care about keeping the people happy and butts in the seats because that's where we're really going to save our money once the property has been stabilized. It takes about 18 months to 24 months to stabilize a property once you buy it and create the value. But then if you're a longterm holder, like we are, you're holding the property for a long period of time. And that's really dependent on how well you operate, how well you provide customer service and how well you can keep the people renewing their leases. So for us, we really like to focus on resident retention. That's a really big deal for us. James: So that's one of the biggest KPI that you look for, resident retention? JC: Absolutely. James: Making sure that back doors close. So can you tell us like one to two things that you do to keep residents renewing? JC: You know, it's really simple, right? You don't want to get too caught up in a lot of complicated stuff so one of the biggest things that you need to do is follow up with people after work orders. Make sure that they're happy. Make sure that the work order was completed.; first of all, completed. Second of all, was it done right? And third of all was the customer happy with the experience? James: So, I think the resident retention is one of the most important things that you guys look at, especially closing the back door. And can you tell us one to two things that you and your company do to make sure that people keep on renewing or motivated to renew? JC: Yeah, I mean, it's important to focus on from a very high level, really the most what should be obviously simple strategies and have a process in place to make sure that it gets followed through. Like, for example, if there's a worker that's placed, following up with the person with a phone call, the customer, and saying, "Hey, was the work order done to your satisfaction? Did you have a good experience, how did you feel about it?" And that's a big deal because a lot of people that don't have work orders completed the right way are the ones that are gonna end up leaving the property with a bad taste in their mouth. And then a lot of people are actually surprised when we call them and they basically are just happy that we chose to call them and follow up. And that actually makes them so much happier, to begin with. So I think following up on work orders. The other thing is following up after a move in and making sure that the unit was fully functional; if there was something that was missed, making sure that you take care of it. And then the other thing that I think is really important is when it comes time to renew, you need to give the resident enough runway, to listen to them when you want to call them to renew. Because they're always going to have some concerns, either if the rent's going up or something. But normally it's actually, a lot of times it's just, "Hey, you know, I've got a couple of things wrong with my unit and I need you to fix them." And so, you've gotta be able to actually talk to them and understand why they're frustrated and fix those things and then they're willing to renew. So I think basic follow up is really the key. Following up with the resident on some sort of a documented frequency that enables you to keep a pulse on how they're feeling about their experience. James: Got it. Got it. So I presume that most of the deals that you buy, you try to do value add on the apartment, right? I mean, you guys do renovation, you've put in good management and all the smaller things in the interior and exterior, is that right? JC: Yeah, I mean basically you got it right. So number one is, acquire the deal at the right numbers. Number two is, renovate; which includes exterior amenities and unit upgrades. And then number three is, put a great operations team in place. And so those are sort of the three pillars of a successful investment and a successful life cycle of an investment for us at least. James: Got it. So what is the most valuable value add that you think in your mind that gives you the biggest bang for the buck? JC: You know, I really couldn't point to any one thing. What I would say is that your upgrades to your units are really important. Because a lot of people get sort of jaded by the exterior pops, like, you know, put some paint on the walls and stuff. But I've found that unit upgrades are really at the core of what you want to give in terms of your experience to the customers when they're walking through. And then the other thing that's really important is that there's a cohesive feel to the renovations that you do from the exterior; be it the painting or the amenities improvements. One of the things that I think people miss a lot is that they put money into exterior items, but there doesn't seem to be a cohesive feel. It doesn't feel like a clean, unified vision for what you wanted to present to the customer. And I think that's a big deal. It goes all the way down to the color schemes and it goes down to the signage and how that matches with the colors and how it matches with the amenities and also how it flows into the leasing office. You know, do the colors and the vision and what you're portraying with the signage and the exterior, does it match to what somebody is walking into the front door to lease a unit? Furthermore, do the units, sort of, match to the vision of what the exterior is saying? So, I think that it's not just one of these things, it's basically having a holistic approach to how you tie it all together so that it feels like a common vision when you drive to the front door all the way till when you go into the model unit. James: Got it. Interesting. Because you are looking at more of cohesiveness of the whole units and how they feel than a specific item. So let's go to your personal side of it. So I mean, you started in 2006 and then now it's 2019, you bought and sold like thousand units. So you must have a good write on the apartment cycles. So why do you do what you do? JC: Why do I do what I do? That's a good question. I think that ultimately what we're doing here is we're basically building a business that is focused on providing a great value to the community, to the customers, to the people that we rent our units to. I think it sounds cliche, but actually I think not enough people to do what we do actually talk about it. You know, when we come into a property and we invest multiple millions of dollars in the renovations and do the transformation of the property, really what we're doing is we're improving the lives of the community that lives there. And it makes a big difference in, we get told all the time how much they care to see all the stuff that we're doing. And so the first thing is making a difference in the community, I think is what's really, really cool. And we've done that over many, many properties now. So we've gotten to see that time and time again. I think the second thing is, partners. So we work with a lot of amazing partners, contractors, vendors, lenders, lawyers; there's so many that I can go on and on with. But what's really special about what we're doing is that we've developed really close relationships with a lot of these people that have been with us for many years. And so, we've become somewhat of friends with them as well as business associates. So it's really great to kind of see how much our success has impacted their success as well. And sort of a 'rising tide floats all boats things' mentality is where I get a lot of joy, personal satisfaction out of what we've done here. And I think the third thing is really is it's about our investors. I mean, I can tell you personal stories of many people that I'm very good friends with that have come along the ride for us, that we have literally changed their lives because of these great investments that we've been able to do over the years. And so I think that this business is about touching people's lives. Touching people's lives in every single aspect of what we're doing. For me, that's what really makes it fun for me every day. James: Would you do this same role for the next 20 years? JC: Yeah, of course, man. I'm not retiring. I mean, this is great. You know, we've got a great team, we've got a great company. And real estate investing to me it's more of a lifestyle thing too. So to be honest with you, this is something that I believe in doing irrespective of my company. This is sort of a personal belief that real estate investing is a very, very good way to take the money that you're making from whatever method that you're generating it and pump it into something that's going to give you a longterm return. James: Got it. Got it. Was there a proud moment in real estate that you think you will never forget that you can ride it on your tombstone? JC: Yeah. Well, I don't think I'm gonna put anything real estate related on my tombstone. James: Of course not. But if there was something that when you are at a very old age, you're going to think I'm really, really proud that I did that, can you describe that moment? JC: No, I don't think I've gotten there yet, man. I think there's still so much more to be done. You know, any proud moments, I think they're all stepping stones. I'm telling you, every day I wake up and I'm excited about where we're taking the company, things that we're doing to grow the company, new ideas that we've got. And I don't think we've reached our full potential in any way, shape, form, or fashion. James: Okay. no, what I mean is like, did you touch any employee in a certain way that, in terms of changing their life, any tenants, any property that you think that we really did a good job and that I'm really, really proud of that. JC: Yeah. I mean, you know, nothing particular comes to mind. I mean, look, I can give you a million examples, right? But the very last property, for example, that we renovated, I thought that it was the best one we've ever done. And I thought that just seeing the people that have been writing reviews on our property, coming online reviews and whatnot and hearing the feedback that we get from our management or our onsite staff has been so happy that we've made the change with the property. So yeah, that's very rewarding to us for sure. James: Got it. Got it. Top three things that you want to advice newbies who wanna walk your path. JC: I'm only going to give you one. I think it's the most important one. It is 'go long, not short.' Take the long road, do it slow and steady. Don't take unnecessary risks and make sure that you build the foundation and spend your time building a foundation solidly before you try to go too fast. I think that that's a mistake that a lot of people make. And I think that doing it slow and steady is there's a lot of benefits to that. And that's the way that we built our company. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah. I see so many craze out there on people want to do so many big things very quickly in real estate now because it is how the market is right now. So what's your strategy right now in this market cycle? JC: I don't think we really changed our strategy. We remain and always have been. We are opportunistic buyers and we're strategic sellers. I've talked about that before, I did a blog post on that. And the way that we've always seen it is, strategically speaking, if it's the right time to exit an asset, we're going to do it. It's been a great time lately to sell properties. It's also been a great time to keep properties, be a net keeper. We talk about that too. Opportunistically buying simply means that if we find a great deal, we don't care whether it's a hot market or a down market or a sideways market. If it's a great deal and the numbers work, we're going to pull the trigger. We know exactly what we're looking for. We've been around long enough to know that when we see that type of a deal and we've got the right relationships in place with the brokerage shop to do it. We're gonna make it happen because what we've seen is we've had some of our best acquisitions in what some people would call a seller's market or on a hot market, an upmarket. And so I think being an opportunistic buyer and always being ready to strike if the right numbers present themselves is where you need to be positioned. James: Got it. Got it. Before we end, I've asked you this question, which is completely different from what other questions I asked and normally it's not in my mind. But you are from California, investing in Dallas so you know a lot about these two markets. So do you think when recession hits...I mean, that's already a lot of people moving to Texas and Florida and maybe Phoenix. Do you think when the recession happened, there's going to be a lot more people moving... JC: Moving to Texas? James: Yes. I mean all this Texas and Florida and other markets. JC: Well, I don't know the answer to that question per se. But what I can tell you is this; it's becoming increasingly difficult to be a very smart college graduate in Silicon Valley and be able to see yourself making a life out here. And so even now with the job market being pretty decent, people are still leaving. And they're leaving because they just can't see themselves being willing to spend so much money to buy a house here, on top of the student loans that they've got and on top of the cost of living that they've got with high rents and whatnot, how do you save to buy a home here? And so, I don't think that that's going to change and I don't think that it matters whether we have a blip on the radar with the recession. The fundamentals are such that it's creating a very big incentive for people to move out, to go to other states where they can look to buy a home with a little bit more ease, can actually afford to pay rent with a little bit more ease. And so it's naturally speaking, we, as a company, believe that there's going to be continual growth. And in markets like Dallas Fortworth right now where rents are still, even as they'd gone up are still below the median affordability across the nation. Obviously, Silicon Valley is on the opposite end of that spectrum with San Francisco and San Jose, you got some of the highest rents in the nation. It's very unaffordable for how much people make here. So I personally think that the migration away from the coastal communities is going to continue. I don't see that trend stopping anytime soon. James: Yeah. No, I'm not saying it's going to stop. I think it's going to double or triple because when the recession happens, I mean, people are gonna lose jobs. And where your house mortgage is fixed, the house mortgage not gonna reduce. But if you are losing your job, people are gonna take that equity and at least move to cheapo States, like where they can pay less in mortgage and buy better houses and lead a better life, I guess, in terms of house expenses. Because I read some article that on average in the US, somebody's paying like, 60% of their pay going to mortgage. I think it's much higher in the Silicon Valley and Bay area. So what's the point of living and paying 80% to the house? There's a lot of other things you want to enjoy. JC: I agree. I agree. I mean, that's exactly why we're moving our investments out there to places like Texas for sure. I completely agree with that. James: Got it. Got it. Alright. JC, tell our audience how to get hold of you and if you want to give your contact information. JC: Yeah. If anybody out there wants to check us out, they can go to our website, multifamilypropertygroup.com. But more importantly, I actually host a video podcast with one of my buddies, Paul Peoples. It's a weekly show, it's called the Apartment Investors Show. So if you wanna actually see us in action, talking about how to make smart investments in multifamily, you can go to YouTube and search for the Apartment Investors Show. And we've got a whole host of great curated videos where we bring in experts in many different facets of multifamily investing. And you might learn a thing or two if you go to that, to our show. James: I'm sure that everybody's going to learn a lot of things because I've seen some of the videos. It was really good. JC: Thank you. James: Awesome, JC. That's it. Thanks for coming on the show. And happy that you add a lot of value to our audience and listeners. JC: Yeah, thanks a lot for hosting. I really appreciate it. I had a good time. James: Thank you. Bye. JC: All right, bye-bye.

James: Okay. So let's get started.  Hey audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast. Today, we have Tim Bratz from Legacy Wealth Holdings. Tim is a multi-family syndicator/sponsor who owns almost 3200 units almost valued at 250 million dollars in value. Hey Tim, welcome to the show. Tim: James, I appreciate you having me, buddy, thank you.  James: Absolutely. Happy to have you here. I've been trying to get you on the show for some time and we have been playing tag on the appointments. That's good. So, can you tell me which market are you focusing on right now?  Tim: I'm actually in six different markets, six different states. I'm pretty heavy in the Southeast. Majority of my property, about 70% of my properties are in South Carolina and Georgia, but I'm also in Ohio which is where I live. And then I'm also in Texas, Oklahoma and I got a couple of vacation rentals down in Florida as well. James: Okay. Without going too much into detail just quickly, how did you start? And then how did you scale to 3,200 units within how many years?  Tim: Yeah. Well, I mean, I was going through college when the last market cycle was going gangbusters. So 03 to 07, I'm going through college, everybody said if you wanna make money get involved in real estate. I ended up moving out to New York City because my brother was living out there. And I became a commercial real estate agent for businesses. You know, so I broker leases and I brokered a lease that was 400 square feet in Manhattan. It was $10,000 a month and so I was like the wrong side of the coin. I need to be owning real estate not brokering it. So I got into a lot of the residential stuff. I think a lot of investors get into real estate because of the lure of passive income and residual income, but then many of us get stuck doing this transactional stuff of flipping houses and wholesaling. And I went through that same phase, you know, I thought I had to stockpile my own cash. I didn't understand that you could syndicate, that you could raise private money and bring in equity partners and how your sponsors to then cosign on loans. I didn't know that that was possible.  So I went through the whole residential side of things and bought my first apartment building the end of 2012. So just like seven years ago. It was a little eighth unit building and I fixed it all up, put tenants in place and I was like man, I'm making better returns on this than I am flipping houses and it's way less headaches. And so I bought another eight-unit and kind of built up a portfolio about 150 units with some partners.           That partnership ended up going bad a few years later. In 2015, I ended up liquidating everything and then just going back out on my own. And so I started on my own and just kind of partnered up with a couple of people that they just started raising money for different projects and I partnered up with good operators and bring money to those projects and help sponsor those loans or I started buying my own properties here locally in Cleveland. And over the past four years, pretty much in August of 2015, I started buying my own stuff. So it's been right at four years now. I built up a little over 3200 units, 3207 units as of today, about 251 million dollars worth of property value and my model is based on the residential realm, actually. I buy properties and I got to be all in for 65% of the stabilized value because that's what the model was. I never read a book. I never went to a seminar before. I just kind of developed it myself and I started buying properties, apartment buildings, the exact same way.  So I have to be able to buy it, renovate it, be all in for 65% of that stabilized value. And so a lot of the buildings that I buy, you know, I'm into a building that's worth 10 million dollars for about six-six and a half million dollars. So on the 250 million dollars worth of property, I only owe to lenders and my equity investors, it's like right at 150 million dollars. So we have a lot of equity in our properties too.  James: Got it. Got it. So it's very interesting you bring up that 65% because that's the exact number that I had when I was doing my single-family for zero money down. So I counted if I get at 65% ARV, which is after repair value, you should be able to do a second load, which is I call it as a double closing of a loan. I have two loans; one loan is like you do like a short term loan and at 65%, you buy it, you take a rehab loan and then you flip it to the long term loan. Tim: Yes. That's my entire model. So I don't traditionally syndicate, I buy distressed assets. I'm bigger than some of the smaller investors but not quite a hedge fund or a Reit and I'm willing to get my hands dirty, I'm willing to actually do the work. So I take on a little bit more distressed type properties. I only buy in A and B Class areas, but the properties are typically C-Class type properties that need physical improvements, better management. Like really not just value-add but like a total repositioning a lot of times. We're remarketing, rebranding, all that. And so, we come in and we fix it all up and because we force appreciation because we can make it happen and really create the appreciation versus speculating on appreciation and hoping values go up over the next five years, we're able to create a lot of equity in that first 12 months and then we're able to turn around and refinance and cash out our investors.  So instead of selling, I just refinance at like a 70% loan to value that gives me enough money to then, pay off my bridge loan. Or that short-term construction loan is and it helps me pay off my investors and to me, it's more predictable. It's more predictable to know where interest rates and where the economy is going to be 12 months from now or 18 months from now than it is like maybe 5 or 7 years from now. Five or seven years from now, we could have a very different economy, very different political circumstances; could have three different presidents in the next five years, right? So we just don't know.  And for me, I like the predictability of buying at a wholesale price, creating an appreciation and then cashing out my investors. Now it's you know for lack of a better term house money in play, right? So now we can let the property ride and we can hit sit on it. It doesn't matter what happens to the economy for the next 10 years, I have a long-term, long amortization schedule fixed interest rate loan, non-recourse loan in place; where the market can go up it can go down, I still have tenants in place paying the debt service, paying the operating expenses, and putting cash in my pocket and I could ride this thing out because I don't owe any of my investors any more cash.  James: Got it. Got it. So yeah, that's exactly the deep value add, that's how I position it where you buy it at really good value; very, very low level.  You really put all your effort to push up the first appreciation and then you go and refi in 12 to 18 months, I guess right? Tim: And we built some new construction stuff too, down in the Southeast. We built some townhouses. Like we'll do new construction, it'll be like an A or B plus kind of an area but it's not luxury. We do only workforce type housing so we can build townhouses for about $85,000 per unit, 80 to 90,000 per unit and they'll rent for about 1,300 bucks a month for us. And so that allows us to get the values where we need it to then refinance and do the exact same thing just for new construction. So we do a little bit of that and more repositioning of existing assets though. James:  Yeah, very interesting. I really like the model. I was doing it like two-three years ago. I mean, for me, I got worried about the market and I start, not looking for deep value add and also deep value add is harder to find. Even though you find it, what happened the sellers are basically taking the value by pushing up the price on the deep value add and because of that, it's not a deep value add anymore. Tim: Right. I don't pay a seller for the value that I'm going to bring to the property, right? So there are some sellers that you know, they're like, oh, well, this could be worth this much. Yeah, but I have to create that value. You're not creating that value. So we find we're a lot of times direct to seller, off-market type property. You know, we're big enough now, especially in Georgia and South Carolina, we have the broker relationships where we're one of the top five buyers in town and you get those deals before they actually hit the market. But in a lot of other markets, I'm not, you know, the biggest buyer in town so I have to go off-market, direct to seller, kind of stuff. And we get a lot of our properties from Mom and Pops who have owned it for 20 30 years or inherited the property. They just didn't put any more money back into it. You know, the total debt on the property is very low if at all and they just don't want to put any more money into it. They don't want to do the work so we buy it from them. Or I buy a lot from smart entrepreneurs, really sharp people who make a lot of money in their traditional business and they just put their money in real estate and then they didn't have a joint venture partner. They never got educated. They don't know how to manage a management company or interview a management company and they just get abused in the business. So they're like I'm making too much money in my traditional business, this thing is going to sink me. Let me just fire sale this apartment building. So that's where we buy most of our properties from. And then again: we reposition it, we do the stuff that that hedge funds aren't willing to do, and we're qualified enough to take down a 200 unit building that needs a pretty heavy value-add. I do it that way. But like you said though, James, I'm starting to buy a little bit more stabilized assets, more like 85-90 percent occupied of just a little bit of tweaks in the common areas and amenities and then bumping up some rents. We're doing a little bit more of that right now just because of where we are in the market cycle.  James: Yeah, correct. But you gave a lot of details that I want to go a bit more detail into that. So you said you look for deals that are in class A and B, but more distress. And I mean you're basically shrinking your funnel as well because you're going for that... Tim:  Niche gets rich, right? James: Exactly. [11:02crosstalk] Tim: People say hey real estate's mine age. Now real estate's an industry, right? Apartments aren't even initial. You need to figure out what you are really, really good at. And one of the things that I'm really good at is 80 units to 100 units that are distress. It's bigger, it's too distressed for the small guys to get a loan on it because they don't have the background or the resume to go and take down that kind of stuff and the qualifications do that because they haven't done it before. It's a big project, big value add and at the same time, it's too distressed for the hedge funds because they just want to park money and let it sit, let it ride, and let it cash flow from day one. So this is my niche. It's A and B Class areas; good areas, desirable areas, just distressed kind of properties and we're able to get in there and we have all the financing, the relationships are all in place. We could raise the money pretty easily because we can cycle our money every 12 to 18 months. I don't have to wait five years to get my investors their money out; I can cycle at every 12 to 18 months. So as soon as I pay him back guess what they say, let's go do another one. And then they're involved in you know, three deals in five years versus one deal in five years and it makes my life easier because I don't have to go and raise money from new people all the time. James: Got it. Got it. That's a really good model. So that's the investors after you cash out when you pay them back, do they stay in the deal as well? Tim: Yep. So mine's a little bit different than traditional syndication. Usually me and my joint venture boots-on-the-ground partners, we keep 70 to 80% of the equity in the deal and then we pay a pref, a fixed pref to our investors regardless of the properties performance. So even if it's not cash flowing it's predictable because I know that if I'm borrowing 2 million bucks, I'm paying, let's say, 10% pref, I'm going to pay $200,000. That's just a cost of the deal. I got roofs, I got flooring, I got paint, I got cost of capital; it's an extra $200,000.  So I build that into my model and then I can make those payments to them. They feel more confident, more comfortable because now they have a predictable return on their investment. Then I refinance, they get all their money back off the table and then they still maintain 20-30% ownership without any money invested and we're able to do that again and again and again. And so, you know with traditional syndicators if I try raising money from somebody who's used to traditional syndication, they're like, why would I ever do that? Well, you get a predictable return and secondly, you get 30% ownership.  But if all your money is in three different deals, it's actually 90% ownership because 30% 30% 30%. And so overall, they're actually ahead of what they would do in traditional syndication where they might get 70 or 80% of the equity in one deal. So, it actually works out better for the investors, works out better for me but it's a lot of work on my part. We spend a lot of money.  Sometimes we spend a lot of money on advertising in new markets until we have those relationships built up and then, in order to find those off-market direct to seller deals and it's a lot of work. Like my business partner down in Georgia that I own a bunch of property with, he goes and sleeps at the properties for three nights a week. He spends four full days there, sleeps in a B-class apartment, you know, on a blow-up mattress, the guy is worth 25 million bucks. And then his brother who's our other partner is worth another 25 million and they're sleeping at the properties, doing the work, kicking the tables, making sure construction ends up on time, on budget and that's what you need to do man. I see a lot of people who are trying to be this puppet master and they're not willing to actually do the work of taking ownership over this thing. They just want to go and syndicate and then go back off to whatever they're doing. And to me, like there's something to be said about just having old school diligence and work mentality and what you can get done if you're willing to do that kind of stuff. James: Yeah, real estate is very, very powerful; especially commercial real estate where you can force appreciate. And especially if you are going to get the majority of the equity in the deal, why not I sleep, right?  In 12 months, 70 to 80% of this deal is going to be mine. Why not work hard, I'm with you. Tim: It's a season of your life. If you're putting your head down for a year or 18 months, but then you can generate millions of dollars of equity, why not do that? And so yeah, that's kind of the mentality that we take.  James: Correct. Yeah, it's very powerful to create wealth and I think the investors appreciate that as well because now you're able to give them back their money and all that. But your model is assuming that you are able to refi into a long term loan in the 12 to 18 months, right? So what happened if that model breaks? Tim: Yep, absolutely. So that's the inherent risk with our model is what happens if rates change, what happens? If banking tightens up, what does that all look like? So a couple of things. One, I don't think rates are going to change as much in 12 or 18 months as they would maybe in five or seven years. So to me, we underwrite the deal - like right now, I just closed on 500 units. I got 2 buildings, around 250 units each last month and I got a 3.83 and a 3.88 interest rate. Even right now, rates went up back; they're hovering around for four and a quarter right now for stabilized assets. We're underwriting the deals with 4.75 to five percent interest rate on the back end for a stabilized property. So we're taking on some of that, some of that, we're underwriting it for that. We also underwrite our rents very, very conservatively and we're at such a low basis in the property, usually around 60% of what that stabilized value is, we have options. So Fannie and Freddie are tightening up big time right now. That's okay because we're at such a low basis that we can still go over to CMBS - commercial mortgage-backed security - or a life insurance company and even though they offer a lower loan to value, I'm okay with that because I'm at a low enough basis. I can still cash out my investors.  So worst-case scenario, my investors still get their money back and we have a lower LTV loan. So maybe there's not some refi proceeds or anything like that that we can take off the table but at the end of the day, they're going to have more equity, you know, their equities gonna be worth more in the property and the cash flow is going to be more on a recurring basis for that. And the other thing is even when banks stopped lending to people in 2009-2010, guess what? They were still lending to somebody and it was the people with big balance sheets, with stabilized portfolios. And I have a big enough balance sheet and stable enough portfolio. I'll be able to get refinanced regardless of what happens in the next 12 to 18 months so I'm not that concerned about it. And again, because our basis is so low, we have such high cash flow on these properties. I have different options and have a good team of mortgage brokers. Who even if I had a slap another, you know three-year loan on there, even if it was at 6% interest rate or six and a half percent interest rate, I can still cash flow;  it's enough. It covers my operating expenses, it covers my debt service, still puts cash flow in the bank. You know, it's a crappy conversation that I have to have with my equity investors, but they keep on making ten percent on their money so they're happy.           You know, the worst-case scenario is they get their money back in 48 months; then, you know it is what it is. So I've taken a look at all the downside. I've talked to people with billion dollar portfolios and said, hey poke holes in my model. And that's the inherent risk is what if you can't refinance? So that's one of the things. The deals that I just closed last month, they were already in that 85-90 percent occupancy range. Like right at 90-91, I think is what they were. And so we got a Fannie Mae loan actually on it. That's a construction loan that we'll be able to put a supplemental debt on it. So, it's already a long term loan, 30-year amortization, couple years of interest only. And then, whenever we create the appreciation, 12 months 18 months from now, we'll be able to put supplemental debt, which is kind of like a second mortgage almost but through the same lender, so they're cool with it. And so the only real risk I'm taking is the interest rate on that portion of the debt. I owe 17 million dollar mortgage on it right now. And then the other will be about another 7 million dollars. So the only real rate risk is I'll get home at three point eight percent on 17 million dollars, even if the other 7 million goes a 5%, my blended cost of capital still four and a quarter or maybe a little less. So, you know, that's another way that we're reducing that ongoing risk.  James: It's very interesting. Now you're convincing me to do deep value add again. So because it's just so hard to mess up. Tim: I mean, the construction is where it all comes down to. I mean, if you stay on time and on budget, you're in good shape. But if you don't have a good construction partner like you can really get burn bad in the deep value add stuff. So you've got to understand what your team looks like, what your strengths are, what your weaknesses are. And for me, we're okay with it. We're pretty good at it and we have a really good construction team.  My partner in Georgia, man, I put him toe-to-toe against anybody in the country from a construction standpoint. He can build new construction, he can renovate existing units. And because he has the mentality of 'let me go and sleep at the property' three nights a week, away from his family, away from his five kids, you know, he's willing to take that on because it's again a season of his life. Like that's kind of partners that I like to partner up with. James: Yeah. Hustlers, they will go really far in life and that's what we need. It's very interesting. So I mean, is there any deal that you find that you didn't do? That you think you should have done and after you passed on it, you realized, ah, should have done that deal? Is there a deal that you look at...  Tim: That's a good question.  Let me think on this. We try to kill deals. I try to kill every deal that comes across my plate, especially right now. I try to look for every reason to walk away from every deal that comes across my desk. If I cannot kill the deal then I know it's a good deal. And so, you know, as soon as you're like, 'hey, well, I think I can scale back construction and make it work', wrong idea, wrong strategy. Because the last thing you want to scale back is the construction of the value-add process. Because then your rents aren't going to hit where you expect them to hit because you're not able to attract better tenants or higher quality tenants and they don't see the value that you're adding to the property. At the end of the day, like people like, 'oh, I think we can make this one work.' No. The only way you can make it work is if you go back to the seller and negotiate a lower purchase price because that's the only variable in this equation. You know, what rents are going to be is what rents are going to be; what the construction budget is, is what the construction budget is. The only variable here is the purchase price. And you know, you make your money on the buy side. So are there deals that I passed up on that I should have moved on? Maybe but for me, man, I don't have much of a risk tolerance. I only buy stuff that I know that is very predictable to me. That's why I don't play the stock market. I can't control if you know Volkswagen -  I can't control if Elon Musk smokes a joint on public television and the stock drops by 15%; you know, I can't control that. I like being able to control real estate and having very predictable returns for me and my investors. And sometimes it's a gut check, you know. Even if everything looks good on paper, but my gut doesn't feel good about it, I'll say no to a deal. It's just that I've seen enough deals go south. And as quickly as we can build our net worth, being in commercial real estate, one bad deal can take out your legs and wipe you out totally. So I'm just not willing to take on that risk, especially when it takes so much work in order to get to where we are.  James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I want to touch on your gut check thing because I know numbers don't lie and we are numbers guys and when underwriting, we want to make sure things work on paper and all that. But I've walked out of a deal because everything works very well and the numbers look good, but there is something wrong in that deal that I didn't discover and I've walked out from that kind of deal as well. And that's very important. I mean, real estate is not only science where everybody says a numbers game and people that are good in numbers will do it but there's a lot of odd to it as well where it's just something wrong somewhere and it comes from experience. Tim:  That's the only way you get that, from experience and it's usually personnel kind of things that make me walk from a deal. I'm just not comfortable with that joint venture partner, with that management company or with whatever the seller is saying. You can kind of see through the lines once in a while, whatever that is. Yeah, I mean my model is I'm really good at raising money. I'm really good at sourcing deals. We're pretty good at creating - like we can handle a lot of the back office type stuff.  I'm back in Cleveland, Ohio now, is where I live, we can handle a lot of the management side of things; collecting of rents, work orders, telecommunication; all that kind of stuff, all the administrative side. From here in Cleveland, we just need a local boots-on-the-ground partner and some local property managers, maintenance personnel, and I always have a joint venture partner locally. And so if that joint venture partner isn't strong enough, then usually I'll walk away from the deal. Because man, I think it's important to have somebody with vested interest, with equitable interest in the deal; who's local to the property, who can go put their eyes on it a couple of times a month; to keep everybody honest, to keep the management company honest, to keep the local property manager, maintenance personnel, leasing agents and just come in and kick the tables once a month and just let people know that we're paying attention. Because if you don't pay attention, then they take advantage of you.  James: Yeah, it's hard work. I mean, I know exactly how you feel in terms of how much hustle and how much detail and how much you have to be on top of the property managers because it's not their baby, it's your baby. And there's so much of details that if you don't ask them, they're just going to slack off right?  Tim: Yes.   James: They are paid differently from what we have paid for and we are the owners and it's just completely different ownership level, right? So that's very interesting. Is there any deal that you think after you bought it didn't match from what you thought in the beginning. You thought this is how I'm going to execute it but once you buy, it's like, oh, it's completely different from what I thought and how did you overcome it? Tim: Yeah, I mean every deal is a learning experience and you to get punched in the gut enough times and eventually you learn. Fortunately, you know when I was growing my portfolio, I bought my first building in 2012 and I bought an eight-unit building for $30,000. So I'm in Cleveland, Ohio buying units for $4,000 a unit. I put another, I don't know, 50 grand into it. So I'm all in for $10,000 a unit. And it's hard to lose. And so in 2012 2013 2014 as I'm growing my portfolio, while I'm going through these learning curves, the market is getting better and that was able to absorb a lot of my screw-ups early on. So I still made money on every single deal that I did even though I was learning on a lot of these things. There's only one building, a 44 unit building, that I bought about 2-3 years ago maybe that I've lost money on. It was one of those things, hey, I saw the leases, I saw the rent roll. It was 80% occupied and I bought it from a guy that I know, somebody that I actually know. And so, I bought 44 units and he's like, "Yeah, man, 80% occupancy." "Great, man. I'm going to come in, I'm going to renovate the last whatever 9 units and turn those over. I got a local team." He was out of state.  "So like my team can come in clean it all up clean up the common areas. I think I can make $300,000 on this thing in the next 12 months pretty easily and it'll cash flow a little bit in the meantime." So I buy it and I find out it's only 25% economically occupied. So there are 35 tenants or something in place and only 11 of them are actually paying rent. And so I learned my lesson there, you know. It's not about occupancy, it's about collections.  And this is a buddy of mine. This is somebody I've known for many years and grabbed dinner with him, his wife, my wife and not a lot of times but a few times and close enough where I call him a buddy. And all of a sudden, he sells me a building, tells me it's 80% occupied, doesn't tell me it's only collecting 25%. And all of a sudden, I had to kick out 24 tenants and turn over 24 additional units.  So imagine what that cost does now to the $300,000 I thought I was going to make? And this was one of the only times I brought an investor in and he wanted 50/50 of the deal: "Let me bring the money, you do the deal."  "Okay, cool."  And I'm stroking a check for about 35 40 thousand dollars when it was all said and done. And I could have gone to that investor and said, "Hey, man, I need 20 grand from you. I'm putting up 20 grand of my money. We're selling this thing. It's a pain in the butt. We're gonna lose money on it. But, you know, we gotta get rid of it. And that's part of the deal."  Instead, I stroked the entire check, gave him 100% of his money back and because he didn't make a return, I gave him equity in another deal of mine, without him having to put up any money just to kind of soften that blow. And so I think when you do the right thing by your investors word spreads, you know, he says great things about me, he wants to invest in more deals with me and stuff now. It is, do the right thing knowing that there's always another deal. There's always another opportunity.  That one, we could have held on to the property long-term and let it cash flow. That's a cool thing about buying apartment buildings. You can really screw up and if you had to, you can hold on to it, manage it, let it cash flow for the next 10 years and eventually, you'll actually make money on these things even with that big of a screw-up. But for me and where my long-term vision is and my team and everything else, it was just more of a C-Class type property. It took up too much management and too many headaches. It wasn't big enough. We couldn't really scale it. So we made just a business decision to sell it and to eat that loss. But it's the only building I ever really ever lost money on. Now we've gone through pretty much everything and we've gotten kicked in the crotch enough times where we know what to look for across every building. Like it's very hard to pull the wool over our eyes unless it's like grossly fraudulent on the sellers part.  Another big thing that I didn't know early on that I wish I should have done that's always a consistent issue with every building we've ever bought is like the plumbing and the drain tiles leaving the building. It's always one of those unknowns. So now, we spend three to five thousand dollars to scope every single drain line, in every building that we put under contract to ensure that there's not going to be this massive plumbing bill, unexpected plumbing bill, once we buy the property. So that's one of the things that's been a big deal.           And then just verifying collections. Like those two things from a financial due diligence and a physical due diligence perspective like those two things that we've dialed in now and we always did everything else. We always inspected the rooms in every unit, the electrical panels. One of the other things that I didn't do early on that I do now, we've done for the many years now, is I used to only walk the vacant units and the common areas and the mechanical rooms. And then all of a sudden, you realize that they're not showing you all the vacant units. There are other vacant units that they're telling you that they're occupied, they just didn't want you to see them. And like I bought buildings where tenants were turning on and off their faucet with a wrench because there's no actual faucet. So you don't realize a lot of that stuff early on when you're a dumb kid. But I've been through all man. I've been everything. We walk every single unit on a 500 unit apartment building. We will walk every single unit and we'll put a report together on every single unit. It's a one-page, just kind of condition report. We'll take 30 pictures of every single unit. We put it all into like a Google Drive or Dropbox folder. In that way, we have all the information we could ever need on this property. We're not relying on our memory to look up all that stuff. It's all there. Our contractors can see it during the entire due diligence period, all that stuff. And so I think everything's a learning curve. I think you learn from everything. The thing in this business though is like if you can get past all those learning curves, if you can get past some of those losses and some of those getting punched in the stomach, eventually, you're process is so dialed in.  Like they can't pull the wool over your eyes that you cannot lose on deals. And that's why we walk away from a lot of deals that we do because they're waiting for somebody who's an idiot who doesn't know what they're doing to come in and buy their property and overpay for it or not do the due diligence that they're supposed to be doing and all these other things. But eventually, you know what you're doing enough, where your risk is so minimized because you've done all the due diligence on these things, it's a very predictable business at the end of the day. Like you said, it's all about numbers, right? James: Yeah, I mean, it's crazy nowadays, right? I mean with the market being as hot as it is right now, with so many people looking for deals and so many bidding war. So nowadays, the smarter thing that a lot of brokers and sellers are doing, they say day one hard money. Now, they lock you in. So you go into a bidding war, you pay this huge amount of hard money and sometimes they don't even give you early access., So now you're locked in. You can find a thousand and one things and yet we are locked in. Tim: No, I don't do that stuff. I don't play that game. You don't need to if your off-market direct to seller. If you're going through brokers, they're going to do that to you, you know. And there are some people who have crazy money and they're willing to risk that; I'm not willing to risk any of that stuff. A lot of people, they spend a lot of time on ROI - return on investment. I spend a lot of time on return on ROI - return of investment, you know, and making sure I get all my money back. I never ever want to risk principal.   I mean that deal, that's just too risky of a deal. If they want hard earnest money from day one and I haven't already walked the entire property, I'm not interested in doing it. I think once you get to a point where if you're partnered up with a great sponsor or you are a great sponsor yourself and you have the business acumen that like you have James or that I have like I'm able to posture up with these sellers now and kind of say, "Hey. Yeah, no problem. You can go steal somebody's earnest money. That's okay. You can go ahead and do that. But they're not gonna be able to close on this deal because you're lying about the condition of the property or the financials whatever. Or if you're willing to actually sell it to me, give me my opportunity to do my due diligence and shoot straight with me on everything, I promise you, I'm more capable of closing than any of the other people that you're getting bids from right now or you're getting offers from right now."  And so I've been able to kind of build up my credibility in that way where sellers are willing to take less money and offer me better terms than they would maybe with somebody else because they know that I can close on the property. They don't want to get dragged through the mud.  James: Correct. Yeah, this is very interesting, nowadays, the way the market is being played. They're putting all these handcuffs of hard money, day one. And there's another handcuffed where they said you must do lending with our own in-house lending. So that's another handcuff. There are two or three handcuffs that brokers are putting on sellers. And the third subtle handcuff that they do; nowadays, when they close, they send out an email saying that, oh, this buyer paid day one, you know huge amount of money $500,000. They're telling everybody else. Tim: They're trying to set that expectation.  James: If you want to come and buy deals nowadays, you better be ready. So many handcuffs are being put on buyers. But I think a lot of sellers, you know, if they want to work with a good buyer, people who want to really do business, they don't know want to just make the money on earnest money and waste a lot of time getting people to walk through all their units and getting their stuff all being nervous.  So just find a guy who's willing to do it and who is the true buyer. Who knows what he's doing and can close.  Tim: The good brokers with long-term visions and long-term goals, know how to find quality buyers and that's better than just anybody who raises their hand with earnest money, you know. In every hot market, there are people who are short-sighted, who got into real estate real quick just because they wanted to get rich quick, kind of a thing. And they'd rather just do it that way and then anybody who raises their hand, they're willing to go with and those aren't the brokers you want to work with. You want to work with the people who have been around the block a few times, who understand what a good buyer looks like, can build those ongoing relationships. Because as soon as the market shifts, if things cool off, it's going to clean out all the unqualified buyers and unqualified brokers as well. James: Correct. So, let's go to a bit more personal side of things. So what I like about you is you're very, very positive. So you like to look at life very positively and you know, it's hard to do because sometimes you always have something negative that comes in. So do you want to explain about in this business, yeah, you always want to say something negative that you always want to talk about but how do you maintain that positivity?  Tim: Yeah, I mean, you know, I told you the story when we met up a couple of weeks ago or a month ago. I mean, just less than 90 days ago, I was out golfing and I got rocketed to the face with a golf ball, 100 miles an hour from about 30 yards away. It shattered my upper maxilla bone. It knocked out four of my front teeth and shredded my gums. And my lip opened and I was bleeding like crazy. I look down. I'm like, oh, I feel my teeth dangling from my gums and I look down at the ground and I kind of took a knee to make sure I didn't pass out. I looked down at the grass, I'm like, "Man, this grass is really well-manicured; like beautiful grass here, on this golf course."  And I'm like, How the hell am I able to keep up such a positive attitude in this?" You know, I'm thinking about my thoughts. I'm very reflective in that regard. And I was like, "Well, here's why I can see it positive because I got hit my mouth and not in my eyeball or my temple. I could be blind or dead if this thing was an inch higher than where it was."           And so, man, I don't know if it's the law of attraction. You can call it God, you can call it, you know the universe and call it whatever but I think when you put the positivity out, it comes full circle. It's kind of like you reap what you sow kind of a thing and I sow seeds of positivity. And so, I jump in the golf cart and I get taken back to the clubhouse. You know, who's dining in the clubhouse? There are two dentists and an ER nurse having dinner in the clubhouse. They put me in there. They look at my teeth. They drop what they're doing. They take me to their dental office, 15 minutes down the road. They stitched me all up. They put my teeth back in and I'm able to save my teeth and 90 days later, you couldn't even tell that this whole thing happened. Like I'm still going through some cosmetic stuff, but overall like it was a terrible situation, but I think because I was positive it all just kind of came to fruition.  So, you know, one of the things I've always practiced is not saying I have to do something but saying I get to do something. When I go out to dinner with a bunch of my friends and I pick up the tab, they're like, "Dude, you don't have to do that." " No, I don't have to do it but I get to."  The reason that I do what I do is so that I can help people out and I can pay it forward. "Oh, hey, you don't have to cover that bill. You don't have to do this"  'No, but I get to."           I had to eat soup for about a month afterward, but I'm thinking you know, I'm eating a tomato bisque basil soup. I don't have to eat mud pies like people do on the other side of the earth. I don't have to walk two miles each way to go and get fresh water like people have to do on the other side of the earth and some people on this side of the earth. I get to eat soup, I get to eat something that's a bisque that has basil in it. Like are you kidding me? Like there are people who would kill to be able to eat that kind of stuff. I didn't have 14 teeth knocked out, I only had four teeth knocked out.  I think when you just compare it and you put it in that type of perspective of, man, it could have been way worse, you know, like the situation could have gone - and there are still people even with me with my teeth dangling from my mouth, being in that circumstance, I'm still in a better circumstance than a lot of other people who don't have any food, who don't have any shelter, who don't have any clothes, who don't have any support. They're being trafficked by like human trafficking like all that kind of crazy stuff.  Even when I have to go out and raise - I had to raise 7 million bucks for deals last month, and now I don't have to raise 7 million bucks. I get to raise 7 million bucks; that's a pretty awesome problem to have. And I think just putting it in that perspective of shifting your 'I-have-to' to 'I get to', will really make you more gratuitous or have more gratitude for life. James: Was it because of your parents or do you think because you just had some event in your life that you think now I have to change my time or it's just how you have been? Tim: That's a good question. My mom as always been very positive. My mom as always been, hey, you have something else to compare it to. Compare it to this, compare it to that. And I think that's probably what planted the seed of always looking at it from, "Yeah. You're right. I guess it could be way worse, right?" It could have been totally different circumstance. She always used to say, "Hey, if that's your biggest problem today, you've got a pretty good life, Tim." When I was growing up: "Ma, I don't know what I'm gonna do like my basketball just popped." "If that's your biggest problem today, it's a pretty good problem to have." You know, you're safe. You're secure, you're healthy, you have a family, you've got people who love you, you've got food with food on the table and clothes on your back and a roof over your head. Like all those kinds of things like you put in perspective. There's people dealing with a lot worse things. And yeah, I think my mom kind of rooted that into me maybe early on and it definitely stuck and man, I just show gratitude. Especially once you have kids, you know, and you realize man like all I want is their safety and their security and their healthiness and their happiness and as long as they're happy and I'm happy. That kind of a thing that's really amplified it over the past four years. I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old now. And so just putting things into in the perspective that way has been a big deal.  James: Awesome. Awesome. Is there one proud moment in your life that you think you will be remembering it for your entire life?  Tim: That's a good question, James. You've got some good questions there, buddy. James: I want you to think and answer.  Tim: Yeah, you know, I mean, is there one... James: One proud moment that at the end of your life, you're going to say that I'm really, really proud that I did that and it's going to be you know. Tim: Yeah, I don't know if it's one specific moment, but maybe just like kind of how I live my life. I try to do it on a daily basis and maybe it's not something profound. Maybe it's not something that's like one specific thing that was a catalyst. You know, I'm driving to the office today to come and talk to you and some dude cuts me off. Maybe he's got some priorities or something going on. I don't know what other people are going through, you know and for me to judge or get pissed off because somebody cut me off, why would I do that?   I'll tell you if there's a really proud moment, once my kids grow up to be decent human beings, you know, and making sure that I want to live my life as an example of what an exceptional life can look like. So I want people to be like, hey, if Tim Brax, some kid from a blue-collar family in a blue-collar town, outside of Cleveland, Ohio can build up a big portfolio and still maintain good health and still maintain positivity and still maintain great relationships with his wife and with his children, with his friends and still engage and and maybe not be balanced but have harmony in his life, like if this guy can do it, I know I could do it.  If I can inspire people, whether that be one moment in time by a Facebook post or an event that I host or being on a podcast, if I can inspire people to just be their best which is what I have on my wall here and that's not 'do' that's 'be' you know, that's like consumed that all together. It doesn't have to be the best. It would be your best. There's always gonna be somebody more capable, more resources, more whatever. You know, I don't think it's healthy to compare yourself to other people but to compare yourself to yourself and making sure that you're advancing on a daily, weekly, monthly and annual basis is a big deal. And so, I think I just try to make my kids proud, make my mom proud, make my wife proud, make my friends proud. Inspire other people and I try to do it more in the daily activity versus just do it one time and look at that one moment. I try to give back and try to - like I had suites to the Cavs games when LeBron was here in Cleveland. All right, and so when was that, two years year to go? Two years ago, I think. No, it was last year, I think. And so last year, I had a suite to the Cavs. I got the entire series for the first series. I figured who they're playing, but essentially when you buy a suite, you get it for the entire series, however many games they play at home and they played four games at home. And so, you know the first game I went to, I brought some business partners and was able to pay for the suite that way. And then, the second game I brought some family and the third game, I'm like, hey, I was excited to go but like I'm not as excited as I was maybe the first or second time and I'm like somebody else deserves this more than I do because I've already had this experience right? Like, how can I pay this forward?  And so I posted on social media, "I got a suite to the Cavs game. I have 18 tickets that I can give away, a couple of parking passes. It's stocked with food and drinks and whatever you guys want. Like does anybody know of a family or a few families that I can give these tickets to that maybe wouldn't have this experience on their own but really deserve because of how good of a people that they are?"  And man, like it got so much momentum and got so many shares and then the news picked it up and came and did a story on it. And I had about 5-600 applications that came through for people nominating other people to get tickets to this Cav suite. And so, it was actually really hard to break it down and essentially I found four or five families. I think five families that four tickets a piece that I gave the tickets to. And it was pretty easy to narrow it down to like 25 because I wanted somebody who had maybe faced adversity, overcame the diversity and then found a way to pay it forward; not just overcoming it but actually paying it forward and creating a difference.  So, you know, there was one girl whose sister died of an accidental overdose of drugs and now, this girl who's still alive, her younger sister goes around and speaks at different schools about opioid problems and drug problems and how to overcome that and different resources to plug into for that, you know. And so I'm like, wow, this girl, at the age of 16 years old is making an impact on the world; like she deserves some tickets. There was another gentleman who lost his daughter to a congenital heart defect. She was 3 years old, you know and loses his daughter to this congenital heart defect. And instead of like, I mean, I can only imagine how dark of a place he must have been in and he ends up opening up a nonprofit organization to help families with other kids with congenital heart defects to give them the support and help and the conversations and everything and making a massive impact up here in Cleveland, Ohio. This guy is such a good guy. I give him the tickets and he gives them to one of the people that are in his nonprofit, you know. And it's like, man, these people are just amazing individuals.           And so I found five awesome families like that, that we were able to give the tickets to and like doing stuff like that really makes me feel good. And what's even better is that there were 500 people who I was able to create a catalyst by doing this who now, 500 people are thinking in a positive way about people who make a positive impact on their life. And just that positive ripple effect that's created, I think is really, really powerful and it was really, really cool to see. James: Yeah. When I talk to you, I get very inspired because it's not about the portfolio of real estate or [49:17unintelligible]  rights, it's how you look at life and how you look at things. How you think positive and that's the most important when I look at a person. Tim: Yeah. And you do an awesome job with it, man. I mean, you realize that it's not the portfolio, it's not the money that's noble. It's what you can do with the money that's noble and utilizing it for good. I could afford a really expensive fancy exotic car and I drive a $20,000 Jeep just because I don't really care. I know that there's a bigger impact I can make by being a better steward of my Capital, putting it in more deals or paying it forward in ways like that. So I get more fulfillment from that than from maybe driving something fancy.  James: Yeah, even for me, I can't really imagine driving exotic car because, do I really need it?  Tim: At the end of the day, it'd be cool. I'd rather just go and rent one. I know I'd have buyer's remorse. I just know myself personally and I know that as soon as I bought it I'd be like, I don't really need this. And here's the thing. I like watches. I like clocks. I like taking nice vacations. I like traveling first class. I like that kind of stuff. I like making memories and traveling the world; I love all that. So that's where I get my drive from on making a lot of money. For other people, they like fancy cars, they like fancy houses; that's okay.  I got a good buddy, man, he drives a Rolls-Royce and has multiple hundred-thousand-dollar watches, you know. But I know he doesn't do it for flashed and to impress other people. He does it because when he looks down at his watch and when he gets in his car, he always sits back and he's like, "Man, I had to overcome some adversity, I had to go through some shit in order to get this watch. In order to be able to afford this car. And I've had to grow as an individual, as a person and make an impact on enough other people's lives, positively, that then the universe came back and gave me enough money to be able to afford this car and afford this watch." And so, I think it depends on perspective and that's how you look at it. Like I have nothing against people who have fancy nice things, material type things. Because I know he's one of the most giving people that I've ever met as well and so it's perspective.  James: Yeah, it's perspective. Yeah, awesome, Tim. So why don't you tell our audience how to get hold of you?  Tim: Yeah. I mean, I'm pretty active on social media; you can find me on Facebook Tim Bratz. I run my own Facebook account, you know, it's not somebody else running it. I do some education stuff on how to get involved in apartments and things but hit me up with a message there if you're looking for formal education. I give a lot of away a lot of free content, a lot of free insight and I try to provide a lot of value on social media and stuff so just connect with me on Facebook.  That's gonna be the best way and, yeah, man, James, I appreciate all the value that you give and all the value that you create and all the content that you put out there and, man, you're creating the ripple effect yourself on making a positive impact on people's lives. So appreciate you too, brother. James: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Thanks for coming on the show. It was really a very inspiring show. I'm sure for me and for my listeners and everybody's going to be enjoying it.  Tim: Appreciate it, brother. Thank you so much. James: All right. Bye.

James:  Hey audience, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. This is James Kandasamy. Achieve Wealth focuses on commercial real estate and especially focusing a lot on Value Add Real Estate. And today we have Kimberly Radaker Bays from Dallas, Texas. Kimberly has done almost 430 million of assets specifically multifamily.   And this is just under her own asset management. And you know the 430 million represents almost 7200 units. Currently, they still own like 5000 of those units. And they focus a lot on deep Value Add which is an asset, not say an asset class, it's a type of Value Add that you know, gives you the highest return, right.   So they have done almost 10 deals up to now. One important thing that I want to mention before we bring Kimberly live is that Kimberly owns; construction management, property management, asset management and she also owns materials management, which is an important aspect of Value Add in vertical integration as well.   So hey Kim, welcome to the show.   Kimberly:  Hi, thanks so much for having me.   James:  Good, good. So I mean, you own a lot of units. You have been very successful in your Value Add Real Estate acquisition and you're playing in one of the hottest market, Dallas. So, can you briefly walk our audience and listeners through on how was your journey since the day you started? What year did you start? And can you just walk through your whole experience?   Kimberly:  Well, I started in 2007, with some single-family houses and kind of did that when my kids were really little. And then as they got a little bit older, it was harder to take them into Value Add, fix and flips and rental houses and that sort of thing when they were getting into stuff. And so, took a little bit of time away from single families and then got into multifamily in 2011.   So bought the first property, was a 77 unit property in Irving, Texas. And went full cycle with that one in only 15 months and then did 1031 into 244 unit property. While we still own that one, we brought 444 unit property in Arlington. And then kind of as we sold, it just kept growing. So purchased three properties in 2015, which have now all been sold.   And we bought three in 2016, three in 2017 and seven in 2018. And then one so far this year. So all of those, we still own; the 2016 and on, we still own at this point. So that's 4874 units across 14 properties scattered all across the Metroplex, Easter Garland and West to West Fort Worth so.   James:  Awesome. Awesome. And you do a lot on deep Value Add, right? So can you explain why did you choose deep Value Add?   Kimberly:  I guess we weren't scared of it. And we had sort of a knack for it from doing some of the single-family stuff that we had done previously. So we got started with that. And so because we do self-managed because we have our renovation teams in-house because we have the materials import it's a lot easier for us to undertake some of those projects.   I mean, there's some of those projects that I definitely would never hand over to third party management. It would just be a real mess if you did, probably so it really takes an awful lot of hands-on stuff. And even then there's plenty of speed bumps that roll along with deep Value Add.   We have a property that we purchased almost two years ago, that had 200 hard down units that hadn't been occupied in at least 13 years that we know of. My guess is closer to 16 or 17 years. So that's been an ongoing project. And it's definitely hit various little bumps along the way with city inspectors and various things.   And, you know, pipes that hadn't been used in forever, most of the copper was gone, all those sorts of things. But we finally have all, almost all the way back online so.   James:  So when you analyze deep Value Add, right, I mean, I'm sure you look for the value like you bought deals where there was a lot of units down and I think there's a lot of mismanagement and I  mean, is that kind of deal easy to find nowadays?   Kimberly:  No, it's not. The ones that are that deep Value Add are very, very few and far between at this point. But there is a ton of Value Add still available, just kind of depends on what you're looking for. So there's a lot of properties that have had some work done to them. But maybe more of the exterior has been done in the units, haven't seen as much on the interior.   And there's also a lot of room for Value Add on the management side. There's a lot of owners particularly that have owned for a long time in the market that haven't kept up with the rental increases that DFW has seen over the past five years. And so oftentimes, even a property that's in pretty decent shape, you can go in and definitely do some renovations and add some value there. But a lot of value can also be generated just by getting all the units up to the market.   James:  Yeah, I know it's harder to find the deep Value Add nowadays. And for example, the last deal that you did, you bought one deal this year, right? Can you describe how many units is that? And can you describe the characteristics of that deal?   Kimberly:  Sure, absolutely. So that property is 650 units in Dallas. And that one actually is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about as far as just making a difference in management. Some of the units have been renovated, not quite to the way that we would renovate them. So there's some stuff that we're adding to that.   But they're at least kind of some partial renovations done there. But they have third party management on that site and occupancy had really dropped. And they replaced the third party management company and the new management company to get it filled back up, but not really at market rents. And so the rents were quite a bit below.   So just kind of walking in the door, we were able to lease many of the units for $100 or $140 more the day after we took over than what the prior management was leasing for right before then. So there's a lot of Value Add that we're achieving just by taking a step up closer to market.   James:  So Dallas is a very hot market, I'm sure. I don't know, I'm not sure about this or is there a lot of people looking for that kind of deals and how did you get that deals? Why did the broker bring it to you or you have to go through the entire bidding war process?   Kimberly:  On that one, there was sort of bidding but it was, one of the things I think that really helped on that one it's the broker that we've had transact with many times before, but also sort of a neat story. The seller and I ended up on a panel together at a local conference in the offer process. And so I think it was right when we were at best and final.   And I was like, hey, this is the property that you own right? And he's like, oh, yeah and so anyway, we became kind of friends through the whole transaction. And even a little bit before that. So I think definitely, that relationship with the seller helped as well. So there's a lot of sellers that we've purchased from that helps us find deals.   It is a very, very competitive market right now. I will tell you, we've looked at probably 120 deals since then and there's two or three that might work out depending on kind of where the pricing shakes out. So but that was, you know, it's really, really hard to find anything in this market at the moment. But there is something occasionally.   And there are some things that we're able to do that some other groups might not be able to because of the import because of the stuff that we have in-house because of those synergies and cost savings that we're able to achieve.   James:  Got it. So, I mean, you said you underwritten like almost 120 deals, right? So do you do a sniff test? And can you explain to us what a sniff test and all of that 120 deals?   Kimberly:  Sure. Well, I have somebody that helps with acquisitions and gets everything kind of loaded up for me, runs all the preliminary underwriting. So that definitely helps a lot because being able to do that all by myself would be very challenging. We also had an intern this summer that helps with some of the properties that we get less than ideal data for as far as bad formats.   And when you get, you know, a PDF rent roll that doesn't convert well and all those sorts of things. So, but definitely, we have sort of a preliminary underwriting that we do and the spreadsheet that we've built in terms of what we feed in and what we can get out of that. And then obviously, much more detailed if it passes the initial sniff test.   But there's a lot that we do look at, just in terms of what percentage is renovated, the general area, what we think we can do with the property. Fortunately, because we own in so many different areas of the Dallas, Fort Worth metroplex, it makes it pretty quick and easy to underwrite a lot of the properties because we can look at them very quickly.   And we own a lot of properties, that would be a comp or we have owned something that was a comp or we've already evaluated something that was a comp. And so oftentimes we're able to look at the rents and kind of know whether or not something's going to work pretty quickly.   James:  Got it, very interesting. And I mean, because you know, deals are hard to find, right? And you have to have that big funnel of deals and that's a great tip to use some interns to do some underwriting. Because underwriting does take a lot of time, especially when you have you know, rent roll in PDF that doesn't convert and look at a lot of things inside the rent roll. and how's your company structure right now? I mean, I think you are like the CEO and how many people working for you? Asset Management, underwriters analysis? Can you describe --   Kimberly:  Maybe 160 people under the total umbrella. So we own the management company. So that includes both management and maintenance personnel that are out on the sites, regional managers, our accounting department, the material sales division, the guys that work in the warehouse, all the guys want our renovation crew. And then as well as you know, people that handle a lot of the investor relations, the acquisition and underwriting all those pieces.   James: Did you say 60 or did you say 160?   Kimberly:  176.   James:  176, okay, I was writing 60. So yeah, that's a big crew. And so you have the whole construction management, property management and materials as well, right. So can you describe how is the materials companies being set up on top of the property management, construction management, or maybe the whole, how the whole chain of vertical integration works? And how does it benefit in terms of giving you a value proposition for you to win deals or do very well in certain deals?   Kimberly:  Sure. So in this multifamily is sort of our, the materials' import arm, also we have a graphics division. So we have started doing signage, both internally and for other groups as well. So materials and graphics both do internal business for our projects. And then also, a good amount of sales is from other investors in the area. So we have, we do sell the parts.   But as far as to our properties, one of the big advantages were able to have it both on the graphic signage, branding and then also on the materials' import. We pass all of that through it just basically loaded costs. So I mean there's some cost allocation just in terms of the staff at the warehouse, in the storage facilities and those sorts of things. But it's all basically at cost.   And so that's a huge saving to our investors, that translates into additional return for them. We also, the construction arm is really a big partner to the property management arm. What we do for the construction is really the internal stuff. There are tons and tons of great general contractors as far as the exterior. It's very easy to get different people to compete on projects.   And there are quite a few really good players in town. But the interior renovations are really something that a lot of construction groups struggle with. And so that's the biggest reason that we brought it in-house. A couple of times we've tried using third-party vendors and every time we have, we've always sort of regretted it and brought everything back in not too long afterwards.   So we really have enjoyed having that piece. The big thing that enables us to do is we're actually, our renovation crews are actually, the person that's managing though this is kind of plugged in through our property management stuff so we know exactly what the status is. We know when a new unit is coming up. We know how to prepare for it and schedule it, to get everything ready to go on that front.   James:  Got it, got it. I mean, do you have any partners of managing this 176 people company?   Kimberly:  My husband now kind of runs the exist side of the business with the materials and construction and graphics. He kind of took that over. He was healthcare executive for a long time and then came in, join the team a few years ago. But otherwise, I don't have any actual direct partners, just an outstanding team of people around me so.   James:  Wow, that's very impressive. You're managing 176 people.   Kimberly:  It's really long term place, that are very close friends and everybody really does an awesome job. I've got a really strong team around me, certainly couldn't do this without them. But as far as actual partners, don't have partners at this point.   James:  Absolutely. That's really impressive.   Kimberly:  Had some partners earlier on but they --   James:  Yeah, I don't think, ever interviewed anybody, I mean, even though I interview a lot of operators relating to someone who has, you know, $430 million in assets under management, I think 5000 units are pretty common. But someone who has completely vertically integrated, including materials and have 176 people to manage,  that's a big accomplishment. And congrats to you.   Kimberly: As I said, I have an outstanding team around me.   James:  Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The team.   Kimberly:  [inaudible 0:13:34] the whole leadership team is really incredible and each plays their own piece of things very well.   James:  Okay. And I want to give credit to your materials companies exponential materials group, right?   Kimberly:  Right. And so we actually rebranded recently as exist multifamily. So from the EX from exponential and then import services and technology, because we actually are developing some technology to help with the Value Add process. And then we have the import division, obviously.   James:  Okay. So let's talk about that.   Kimberly: Multifamily, what we rebranded as this spring.   James: What technology are y'all developing to help with the Value Add process?   Kimberly:  Well, so the pieces that we already have kind of completed and ready to go are all of the due diligence pieces. So both the lease audit and the unit walks, getting counts for all the units so that we know exactly what we need to have in our material kits to do the renovations. So that piece of it's done.   And then we're just continuing to work on integrating it into our property management software. So that a lot of the things that we have to do a little bit more manually now, in terms of processes to walk through, you know when units need to be walked, what the processes, what pieces they need and all of those sorts of things will be much more automated as we go through them. So we just keep automating more and more pieces as we can.   James:  Got it. So what you're saying is you are creating a due diligence software. So when you do your due diligence also on top of giving what needs to be changed, it also it gives you the materials needed to change and also packages into certain kits?   Kimberly:  Yes.   James:  Oh, that's awesome.   Kimberly:  Think about our material business through. Right now, it does due diligence, but it's really more going to be Value Add software when everything is kind of complete. It's really going to manage the whole Value Add process, really kind of cracking some of the key pieces of asset management along with the due diligence process, the materials, supplier acquisition,  tracking and kind of really being able to monitor staff and progress very easily, even when remote. So it's all a work in progress. And everything always takes a little longer than you think it will.   James:  Yeah, I mean, creating software and a structure does take a lot of time. But at least you have a really good vision to integrate the whole process because I know I do a lot of Value Add as well. And you just have to manage, how many units we have, what is the cause and you know, do the exact right thing for that particular unit or not, right, because after closing, you know, yeah, we are running like 100 miles an hour, right. And we don't have a team.   Kimberly:  Sure, absolutely. So, my husband, Matt is actually really, really good at kind of all of that process flow stuff. So he's been kind of really leading a lot of the stuff on the development side. But we do have the due diligence available. So it's really convenient for us because, the material side of the business, we actually offer kits to our customers.   So we will come out, walk through the various floor plans at your property, get it you know, accounts for this is how many vanity lights, this is how many cabinet poles, this is how many tiles you need if you're going to replace the backsplash, all of these things, make the whole parts list so that the manager is actually able to call and just say, hey, I need a kit for AHU and B1 this week.   And we will deliver a single box that has the ceiling fan, the tile and everything that you need for that unit, exactly down to the precise number that you need in that box. So that everything could just go into the unit, everything gets installed, all the trash goes back in the box, and you can throw it out again.   James:  Wow, that's awesome.   Kimberly: So it's a really cool feature that we have that is unusual from us to the materials suppliers.   James:  Got it and how much volume do you all do? Or how much revenue you all do in your materials business? Just to get the scale of how much it --   Kimberly: Think we are going to hit about 5 million this year if memory serves.   James: And that's for everything, right? When you guys use for yourself and you sell to others.   Kimberly: Right. We're probably about a 30% customer would be my best guess at the moment. The other 70% is all third party business.   James:  Wow, 70% is for other people and 30% is for yourself.   Kimberly: I mean, we're starting to do some of the marketing efforts on that now. And now that we own 100% of it. But everything that it's grown to that point has all just been kind of word of mouth. A few other friends of ours that were investors were like, hey, can we get some of this stuff, too? Yeah, sure, we can work through that. And so it's just kind of grown from there.   James: Got it. That's very interesting. And let's go into to Value Add, right. So let's say your budget got cut into half, right, let's say you're supposed to have a $1 million in rehab budget, now you only have 500,000 rehab budget, right. So what are the most important things that you would prioritize in a Value Add repositioning of multifamily?   Kimberly: So I think a really big piece of it is just hitting the Wow. So there's obviously different, you know, arguments about how far is too far and what you need to renovate in particular unit. But basically, the thing that I have found is, you just want to make sure that you have enough there to get the Wow.   So if you don't have enough, you don't want anybody to ever be looking at it and go, oh my gosh, it's this beautiful apartment. Oh, there's that brass doorknob over there. So I've seen some other renovations that other people have done. So I'll say don't forget the inexpensive details that make the Wow work, even if you are kind of cut on budget.   So there's definitely some bigger things that are more expensive. But some of it, a lot of the unit interiors make a huge difference. You know, as far as making sure that everything is fixed up nicely, I mean, you know, get I guess getting a rehab budget cut in half would never be a very fun thing.   James: Yeah, that's what I mean, it forces you to think right, what is the most valuable Wow you can get right. Let's say you can spend $1 and get that big Wow versus spending $10 and getting smaller Wow. So which one is the biggest wow versus the amount of the money --   Kimberly: I mean, if the painted exterior is really horrible, then that can make a really huge difference. If it's in pretty good shape and it's not in bad condition, then that's probably on the lower end of things. So it sort of just depends on that particular properties. There are certain properties where I would say the exterior has to be a huge piece of the Wow.   And you absolutely have to get that right. And then there are other times when it's like the exterior really isn't bad. So if you focused on your interiors for a while you could probably get your rents up and then generate enough income to be able to check most of the exterior.   James: Got it.   Kimberly: Apologized for the ringing in the background.   James: No worries, no worries. So what's there a deal, a deep Value Add deal that you have done? And you know, you had set an expectation in terms of proforma and what you can expect, but when after you close on it, you realize your proforma was completely out because of something, right? Can you describe that kind of deal? And what did you learn from it?   Kimberly: We haven't had any that we weren't able to work through the proforma. I mean, there's certainly been bumps in the road and everything. I suppose with [inaudible 0:20:51] one of the properties that we have right now as I said, we're coming up on two years. And finally, now all of the down units are going to be done before the two-year mark.   But we were really kind of hoping when we walked into it that it was going to be done in a year. And we hit various different problems along the way. One big thing was when we got the first building online, everything was fine. People were moving in, everything's been working great. But we got to the electrical inspections on the second building. And electrical inspector came in and said, well, you can't have electrical panels in the closets in new construction.   I said, well, it's not new construction, it was built in 1974. And they're like, nope, you can't have it in new construction. So we have, I mean so kind of had to pause on work for several months while we work through that issue because we didn't want to continue working on the rest of the buildings without knowing whether or not that was going to be an issue that we were going to have to move later on.   So there was definitely some delays regarding stuff like that with the cities. The cities are always a little bit challenging to work with. So those can cause some timing delays, which can impact proforma a bit. But we've been very fortunate, we've always been able to really hit the rents that we were projecting. Oftentimes, you know, there can also be issues on any project with property taxes, property taxes are really a big thing.   And so one of the, we've shifted some of our underwriting for stuff that we're looking at now. Dallas County and Tarrant County are completely different in terms of how they respond and what you have to do on underwriting and new properties at the moment. So Tarrant County, we have numerous lawsuits pending that are about to be filed, I guess, based on property taxes. But all of those basically got assess, 97% to 98% purchase price.   James:  Wow, both in Tarrant and Dallas County?   Kimberly:  Just in, Tarrant County,   James:  Oh, in  Tarrant, okay.   Kimberly:  Dallas County was much, much more forgiving. But then Dallas County also has some of its own issues as well. So you know, there's some really good rent growth going on in Tarrant right now. And we'll see how all the litigation turns out on the properties taxes, but that always takes a long time to play through. But that's definitely been a big piece of the underwriting at this point, in terms of how things are impacting the performance of the portfolio that we bought in the middle of last year.   We're actually very fortunate, I guess. It's partially in Dallas County, partially in Tarrant County. And so we were way over budget on property taxes on the Tarrant County side, but way under budget on the Dallas County side. And netted out to about $3,000 below budget across the whole portfolio, six properties.   James: Okay. Wow, that's interesting.   Kimberly:  It's amazing how close you can tie out to your performance in a way that's completely unexpected.   James: Yeah, I think deep Value Add,  I mean, it offers you a lot of parameters to be forgiven, right, in case you found something that is not as what you thought about because there's so much of upside that you can make mistakes and still come out really good.   Kimberly: Oh, absolutely. That's very, very true. And also, I mean, just anytime you have a good rehab, I mean, any deep Value Add, you're going to have a really large rehab budget. So even though things can go wrong, it's still a small percentage, just exactly to your point. You know, if you have a million-dollar renovation budget and you encounter a $200,000 expense you weren't expecting, it's not any big deal. If it was a million-dollar renovation budget, that's a pretty huge deal.   James: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I realized that, whenever I do deep Value Add, you know, there's just, you find things that you didn't expect in the beginning before you close. But you know, you always have some things to work around because you have so much cash to play around, right, in terms of Value Add?   Kimberly: Well, we try to be really conservative too in terms of what we budget, make sure that we have some contingencies. I always try to make sure that we have a decent bit of cash on hand like that's really one of my big focuses, is trying to make sure that we always have enough cash in the bank. That when things don't go quite as planned, it's not the end of the world for anybody, you know.   A huge priority for me is to make sure that we never have a cash call, we never have and I don't ever plan to if there's any way I can avoid it. So that's one of the big things that I really focused on is making sure that I maintain enough cash. We have enough cash at closing, to be able to do what we need to do, cover some bumps in the road, cover a few delays.   Make sure we've got some contingencies just in case, you know, as you're going through your Value Add process occupancy slips a little bit more than you plan, all those things I try to really plan for and try to hang on to the majority of any cash flow. And so we've got everything really sort of wrapped up at least the big line items taken care of and completed.   And then at that point, we know what kind of cash we have to work with them. And we can start paying it out but without ever having to worry about missing a distribution or cutting a distribution or anything else. So that's always just a constant kind of steady or steadily increasing process after that.   James: Got it. So what are the tools that you use for asset management? I mean, you have like 5000 units right now. And can you tell us some of, you know, tips and tricks in asset management that you're using nowadays to manage all these 5000 units?   Kimberly: Well, I guess we've got a lot. I mean, I've been very, very fortunate over the past year because I used to do a lot of the oversight on the accounting side very personally, I still do review the financials every month. But I've been very fortunate to really build out the accounting team.   Got some great people on the accounting team now, to where getting to the point where the last couple of months, by the time that the financials have actually gotten to me to review, I really have basically no questions. And so that's definitely sped things up a lot. I think we're getting some really good interaction between the property managers and the accountants.   So that they are asking the right questions, we're getting the right information back. If something isn't working well, it's getting put in front of the Director of the Operation or the Regional Manager so that we can address stuff and change policy. So that's a big piece of it, is really kind of the interaction between the asset management, the accounting, the property management, getting all the teams to kind of work together.   We obviously have, you know, an inordinate number of spreadsheets and different tools and reports that we look through as far as the out of our property management software to determine kind of how the assets performing. Got monthly reports that kind of track where we're going on the projects, where things are heading, where we're over budget, where we're under budget, how we want to prepare for all of those things.   James: Got it. That's very interesting. And before I forget, so are you, I mean, I know a lot of deep Value Add does need a lot of short term loans. And are you still doing short term loans nowadays?   Kimberly: We do bridge loans.  I am not a huge fan of huge prepayment penalties. So I really have sort of shied away from doing most of the, if any long term loans. We did one, we were actually able to sell and kind of the buyer covered a lot of the cost of getting out of that loan. But that was multimillion-dollar prepayment penalties that would have been owed.   So that can definitely have a big impact on returns in the future. So especially because a lot of our investors are really looking to increase their net worth so we do shorter-term hold periods. It never made sense to me to get tied into a 10-year loan if the plan is really to hold three to five years. So we've been very, very fortunate recently.   We've been able to work with a lot of really good bridge lenders. We have a bank that has done several loans with us, some that have already been paid off and some that we still currently own. And then also a life insurance company that also does some bridge loans. So we try to really look for things that give us a decent bit of exit flexibility.   So that have prepayment penalties that burn off within two to three years at the longest. But then hopefully that have some extensions available or that have longer terms than that, to give us some flexibility so that we don't get caught in terms of having to refinance in a really tight window.   James: So aren't you worried about now, where we are at in the market cycle? And you know, bridge loan does costs certain expiry, right after a few years. Aren't you worried about that or do you think that risk is mitigated?   Kimberly: Not really because like I said, so the properties that we bought last summer, we actually have a five-year loan with a two-year extension available. That has basically no prepayment penalty, once you've paid about two and a half years of interest. So I can enter and we actually are able to pull various properties out sooner as long as we still hit that interest reserve.   So if we sold one today, we would have to hold the others maybe two years and 10 months or something instead of two years and six months to break even on that. But really we have pretty much free exit from two and a half years to seven years from purchase. So that gives a long time that you can still sell some things ahead of time, if you know things stay good for longer. And at the same time, if things go bad soon, you have time to hold through.   So been really looking for stuff, not real short term.  The real, real short term bridge loan two years, you know, with some extensions and that sort of thing, I think can be kind of risky at this point. But we've been able to get quite a bit of stuff that's, you know, sort of a five year fixed, but that's free and clear exit after three, sometimes with some extension flexibility in there.   So it's got a lot of, you've got long enough to ride through things. We've also been able to find some of those, fortunately, that are bridge loans that are fixed rate, which is very nice. So it is a little bit higher interest rate than a Fannie or Freddie. But having that extra flexibility really matters to me, because even with like a Fannie Mae loan, yes, you have time now to get through a downturn.   But none of us really know where the economy is going to be 10 years from now or 12 years from now, either. So on any of those, it's really just sort of oftentimes a three month free and clear exit at the end. So that's still a very narrowed point of time to transact or to refinance. Even if it is a long, long time from now, it's still a pretty narrow window to hit.   And so a lot of the loans we've been able to do, give us quite a wide window of, you know, a couple of years in which we can transact or refinance, whenever it makes sense with the market.   James: Got it. Very interesting answer. I really like having a five years fixed rate. And after that another two more years extension because I thought the bridge loans only three years plus two looks like the other options as well available on that.   Kimberly: There's a lot of different options. I mean, there's a lot of people that are just doing like a three plus one plus one or a, you know, three plus two kind of thing. But there are definitely others that will do different options. And that will get more creative and really do what it needs to do in order to meet your project.   And so we've been very fortunate to find some of those and develop good relationships with some of those lenders that think a little bit outside the box. And we've been able to structure some stuff that really does give us a nice window in which to exit it sooner or if it's later just depending. Because nobody quite knows, everybody thinks something's going to happen, but nobody knows when.   James: Got it. Very interesting. So can you name your secret sauce to success, like a couple of secret sauce, that you think, you know, this is my secret sauce to success?   Kimberly: Well, my team is a huge piece of my secret sauce to success. The fact that [inaudible 0:32:22] barely needs any sleep certainly helps. So I think a lot of it really is just how hands-on most of us are with the projects, with the process. Even as we've grown, obviously, each of us has smaller and smaller pieces across.   But we really do pay attention to those things, we pay attention to the details. I think it's been really important that we do genuinely care about our team members and our employees. I think that they get that and I think that gets us better people. And for the most part, it's allowed us to retain better people. Obviously, this is a very, very tough labor market.   So anytime there is a position that's open, it is a challenge to fill it. And it's a challenge to find the right person to fill it. But I think some of that really kind of genuinely caring about the team has made a difference for a lot of other people. Other secret sauce, I guess, I always kind of looked at the renewals a little bit differently than was standard in the property management industry.   I think things have shifted a little bit more towards my way of thinking about it now. But I remember when I first kind of joined the industry in 2011, everybody was very used to well, okay, are we going to do a 3% increase or we're going to do a 5% increase? Everything was the percentage increase over what the person was paying at the time.   And so one of the things that I always looked at was, now you really have to look at it in a more finite dollar amount. Because if you have somebody let's say that's already $20 over market, for whatever reason, maybe they took a short term lease the first time around and then you've got somebody else that's 150 below market, why would you give the bigger increase, if you do a percentage increase to the guy that's already paying over market, then you went to the person that's hundreds of dollars below market.   So really kind of structuring some unique formulas to try to balance things out. That's one of the things I've learned a lot about as times gone on. It was always kind of my original, foundational idea was that you should give a bigger increase to the person that's further below market. But then also really kind of gotten to fine-tune a lot of that through the years.   And it varies it through various seasons and through different properties and different areas of town. But really have found kind of a matrix of stuff that I do to try to find the right balance on renewals, so that we get as much more additional rent as we possibly can, without dropping occupancy too far.   James: So what is that metrics? Can you share it with the audience? How do you decide, let's say, --   Kimberly: It's a lot more complicated than that. I don't even know the [inaudible34:49]. As I said, I guess that's part of the secret sauce. I will give some of it, but it is just kind of, you know, really bouncing through and finding the right balance. Like I said it varies considerably property to property.   I have some properties where they can, you know, you can bump people straight up to the market even if it's $150 increase, it doesn't matter. They'll just pay it. And I've got others where you know, if there's if it's nearly that large, then you, you just kind of able to tweak it, going through it.   James: Yeah, we do a lot of that, too. I mean, when someone is below market, we usually go person by person and make sure you know, is there anything that you can do to upgrade and don't hurt them, right. I mean, you give them something and you do partial increase, rather than just completely bring them to market.   So that some of the things we do as well, find the right metrics, I guess, right. Is there a proud moment in real estate ventures that you think I'm really, really proud of this particular moment and I'm going to remember that for my life? Can you describe that moment?   Kimberly: I guess there's a lot of really big things. I guess, one of the biggest is just hearing some of the investor testimonials that we've done recently. This is the first time that we've ever had a five or six C offering open which allows us to do advertising to the greater populace. Everybody before was just a five or six B where somebody had to already be on our list prior to the time that the offering open.   And so we actually had some of the investors come in and do testimonials. And that was pretty cool to really, I've heard a lot of stories. But to have people that were actually willing to even go on video and tell their story and tell about the difference that it's made in terms of what they've been able to do with their family, people that have been able to retire, that didn't expect to be able to retire.   People that were able to stay home with kids or retire early or take trips that they never thought were possible. That's been a pretty huge thing to kind of just really hear the difference that it's made to people. I mean, that's sort of the biggest goal is to make a difference. And I guess one of the other really proud moments is just kind of some of the programs that we have at the sites as well.   We partner with a lot of level 1C3 that do different benefits. So we've got some that will help with during hard times to cover rent, we do Angel trees for some of the residents. We've got vendors that have work through us to try to help various residents along the way. We have an organization that actually teaches classes to improve job skills and financial management skills with some of our properties that are in a lower-income area.   And so I actually remember when he was calling, the nonprofit was calling to work with us and you could tell I guess, well, you know, he kind of gave us his pitch and whatever. And we're like, yeah, that sounds great, we'd be happy to help. And he just kind of didn't know what to do with it. It was kind of funny. He had --   James: Because everybody rejected them, right?   Kimberly: He had more objections ready but had no idea what to say when somebody just said, sure we can do that, we'd be happy to, we'd love to work with you. So that was pretty cool to relate. We work on trying to bring programs and really try to make a benefit to the residents as well make sure that we're taking care of the people that take care of us.   James: Yeah, it's amazing how many people treat, you know, real estate as just a money-making tool, right. But I mean, it's more of a life-changing tool, right. You can change a lot of people's lives by not only collecting rent but providing other services that they may not have access to which a landlord can do, right.   Kimberly: I mean, it's a huge way to really benefit the lives of others. I mean, yes, we make money for the investors. And we're very fortunate one of the cool things about our company is that we have had lots of smaller investors. There are lots of investors that have been with us since early on, that have doubled and tripled and quadrupled their net worth.   And so there's many of them that were not accredited when they started with us that now are and so that's one of kind of my own personal goals is to help 100 people become millionaires, that that's kind of what my personal goals. But then also just the difference that it makes to employees. We try to give everybody a great place to work.   And so, you know, when we first started with that first property, we had one manager and one maintenance guy, two employees, I think there were six contract guys that were helping with some rehab, but that was about it. And now we're over 176 employees. And all of those people have a good solid job to come to where they're treated like family and where they have benefits and everything else.   And we've given the employees opportunities to invest periodically throughout the projects. And so that made a big difference for them as well. And then just really making a difference for the residents. We try to give them a good place to live, yes, we do increase their rent. So sometimes we are the big bad wolf in that regard. But we try to at least give them a really nice place to live.   We try to take care of things, fix things when they're broken. It's amazing the properties that we've bought that have had tarps on the roofs and you ask the residents and they're like, oh, we didn't. But why didn't you tell us sooner? We didn't really think you were going to do anything about it. It's been like this for three years.   Like, why should anyone have to deal with a roof leak for three years, that's just ridiculous. And so it does make a difference to go in and clean up some of those properties that have been sort of ignored or just treated as an ATM.           James: Yeah, it's amazing on how much people owning apartments, but never really cared for the apartments. It's a complex asset class to manage, right? I mean, you have to manage the property, you have to manage rent increases, you have to manage tenants or to manage vendors, you have to manage banks, right?   There are so many things that you have to manage and it's just not easy to manage. And not many, very few property management company can do that. And whoever can do that, they need to be really good at it.   Kimberly: It is definitely a challenge. There's a lot of investors or people that have been interested in investing. They're like, oh, I want to do what you do. And I'm like, okay, well, make sure you think through it really carefully first. It's a great thing to do. It's a great business to be in, don't get me wrong. But this is not easy. This is not just I'll buy an apartment, you know and it'll print checks. And it'll be so simple.   You're going to to have staff that has to run them. And even if you have third party management, you still have to watch the third-party management company. And you have to figure out how you're going to step in when you have, you know if there's an issue with that. And there's a lot to keep up with and a lot to manage if you really want to do it well. It is a pretty forgiving asset class as you mentioned, especially on the Value Add side.   So you know, yes, if you're trying to hit 100% return and you know, you only hit a triple oh, shocks, we only made 80%.   James: Still awesome.   Kimberly: So far we've been able to hit our targets, but that is definitely much easier. I suppose than buying something that's really just cash flow, where all you have to do is upset one resident and your occupancy slip just enough that you're not making quite as much as you thought you would before.   James: Yeah, correct. All right, Kim, why don't you tell our audience how to find you and how to get hold of you?   Kimberly: Sure, you can reach out to us at exponentialpropertygroup.com is our website. There's lots of information on there, as well as some of those investor testimonials that I talked about. Some pictures of the properties that we own and have managed and also ways to contact all of us for any more information that we can provide.   James: Awesome, thanks for coming into the podcast. It was one of the huge Value Add podcasts. I mean, you gave a lot of Value Add advice, at the same time, you give a lot of tips about Value Add as well. So really appreciate it and thanks for coming in.   Kimberly: Yeah, thanks so much for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. I'm glad I finally got to meet you.   James: I'm really glad to meet you too. Thanks.  

James: Hey, audience. Welcome to Achieve Wealth podcast. Achieve Wealth podcast focuses on value add real estate investing. I'm James Kandasamy. Today I have an accomplished couple, Jack and Michelle Bosch. And Jack and Michelle Bosch have done more than 4000 land flips across the nation. Land flips is something very interesting to me. And, you know, it's an asset class, or an asset class, which I think is very interesting. And you can learn how we make money out of it. They've done a lot of single-family houses. And they also have done apartments; 330 units apartments. And, you know, they are continuing to look for more and apartments as well, but I think they are the masters of land flip. Hey Jack and Michelle, welcome to the show. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, James we're excited to be here. Jack: Thank you for having us, James. James: Tell me, did I miss out anything in your credentials or you know, did I -- Jack: No, other than we're both immigrants, we both came from other countries. So we started here with, just like you, just came over from another country and so we have that in common. But now we flip now 4000 pieces of land. We teach it now; so we have seminars on that. But then for asset allocation, basically the money we make for land flips and whichever way rental properties now, we rolled that into more and more two apartments now. Michelle: Yes. James: Got it. Michelle: To produce what we call one-time cash with the land flips like you work for a once and you get paid once. We're also able to produce some cash flow because we are also able to sell those properties using seller financing, you know. James: Got it. Michelle: And so you do get some mailbox money, but those notes usually come to an end once the property is paid off. And so, we're always in the back of our minds is okay, let's roll cash profits and cash flow into what we call forever cash, which would be a partner. James: Got it. Before we go into the detail of land flipping, I want to understand your background because I know all of us are immigrants So can you tell me when did you guys move to the country? And how did you move? Were you already successful on the day that you land in this country? Michelle: Oh no. Jack: Of course, we're like, we're a billionaire. James: Did you find gold outside the boat? Jack: No. So, Michelle… Michelle: Yes, for me I came from Honduras here in 1995 to study. I came to a tiny little town like about three hours South-West of Chicago called McComb, Illinois, that's where I met this man in the middle of the cornfields. It's basically university town, you know, and nothing else to do.I came here for a business degree, my undergrad, and I was in my senior year there, my third and last year when I met Jack. We shared some upper finance courses together because he was here for an MBA, 10 months. He met me and then he couldn't leave anymore. James: Got stuck, you got stuck in the US. Jack: She's right. She summarized it. I came in 1997, Michelle was in her last year in undergrad. I did come in for a Masters to that same university that had an exchange program with the university I used to go to Germany. And I was kind of like be able to kind of accomplish three goals in one year. Number one; I was able to get an MBA in the United States because it was an accredited school and I was studying business Germany. Already had enough credits and I just needed these 10 months, was enough to give me the American MBA. They give me, I tested out and all of these other things. Number two, I was able to get credit for the missing classes in Germany. So with that, I didn't have to go back to Germany to do more classes. I completed my degree in Germany, those same classes gave me the MBA. Also helped me complete my degree in Germany and improve my English. And the fourth and most important thing, I met this one. Michelle: But to answer your question as to whether we came here successful, absolutely not. I came in with two suitcases to my name, Jack pretty much the same. You know, I was raised by a single mom and my father passed away when we were very, you know when I was very young. And it was, you know, she was sending me here to study with a lot of sacrifices. I had to take several courses, you know, take seven courses per semester, like advanced as much as possible, because I couldn't afford to be in the US for more than two and a half, three years, you know what I mean? And eating soup towards the end of the semester when you run out of money. And, but I didn't have, I did have in the back of my mind the thought that real estate has been incredibly good for my family. You know, before my father passed, he had made an amazing decision. And it was to buy a piece of commercial property that to this day spits out cash, you know, for my mother. And so -- Jack: And that piece of property brought her to college here in the -- Michelle: Got me through college. Jack: And still sustains her mom over there. Yes, in my case and my dad's, again the same thing my mom, not the same thing but similar. My dad is a high school teacher, retired now. My mom's a stay at home mom. So no, I came here with student debt. I came here with enough money to pay for one semester, I didn't have, really didn't have a clue, how I would even pay for the second semester. Luckily, I got a job at school. The first car that I bought in the US was a $900 old Chevy caprice, like the old [inaudible05:31] car that they use to drive around -- James: It had four wheels, right? Four wheels? Jack: Four wheels, yes. Michelle: And I was like Jack, why did you get this, I mean, there are so many cars, why did you get this car? And his answer was like, cars in Germany are so tiny, I was looking for the biggest car possible in the US. Jack: Like Germans and every single one of them bought the biggest car that they could find. James: That's good. That's good. Yes, I like to, that's a very interesting story from both of you, right. So I like to, I mean before we go into the technicality of the commercial real estate and all that, I like to understand a lot about the thought process and you know, the people behind it, right. Because I think that's what makes everybody successful. It's not about the tool like real estate, right. So tell me about what was your family thinking when looking about the US from outside, right? Did they think the US is the land of opportunity, easy to get rich? Or how I mean, can you talk about the process that when families outside of the country when they want to send their children to the US, what do they usually think, you know, what do they think that you kids will get here? Jack: Well, I think Michelle's mom was perhaps not thrilled that she would stay here. Michelle: Yes. James: But not thrilled? Michelle: No, yes. James: Okay. Michelle: The whole point was to come here, study, not find a husband, go back home and basically help her manage, you know, this piece of real estate and hopefully, you know, continue growing the legacy that was left to us. James: Okay. Jack: Next, get a job, right? Michelle: Yes, yes. Jack: Same thing here. My parents were absolutely not thrilled that I was staying here behind. They, I literally had the job lined up in Germany. I had the, I just put my student furniture in my parents' basement. I had a good degree from a good university and good things and they're like, what are you doing? What are you staying there? What's going on there, you're so far away. In particular, my mom had a really hard time with it for several years. But then once they saw our success, particularly once we entered real estate, and once we saw success and what that success actually means for them too and for us. It's like we don't, we see our parents, this year we see my parents three or four times even though they live in Germany. And it's like, and they, we support them a little bit financially. They get to come here and they get to spend time here. And they see that they don't have to worry about us like we're the one or like, we're my, Michelle and our family, they don't, they're like a peace of mind. They're okay. They're good. They're happy financially, they're good. So, you know what as a parent you wonder, you want to have that feeling. So they know, ultimately, it's a good decision and took them like 15 years to say that, but they did. Michelle: Yes, I mean, we also contributed to, you know, being able to retire Jack's dad before time. You know, a couple of years before he had been working as a school teacher for many, many years. And he was just at the point where he just didn't want to do it anymore but he couldn't leave it because, you know, that involved a big reduction in his pension if he did. And so we put the pedal to the metal back then and it was just through land flipping, to be able to make up for that, you know, for those two years of early retirement and being able to retire him early. So -- Jack: So he ended up retiring a year and a half, two and a half years early because of that and James: Wow, awesome. Jack: And so overall so now they totally have changed. Michelle: Yes, so family has been always I think also big why for us, a big driver to get things done. James: Got it. That's absolutely what happened, you can come here and help out your family back home. It's just sometimes people, I mean sometimes they think that okay we want to come to the US and stay here but that was not the case for both of you, right? I mean, you came to study and you're supposed to go back. But you got stuck with each other. Jack: The United States is a wonderful country to be. But then we also, we realized, I don't want to live in Honduras, Michelle didn't want to live in Germany. Nothing wrong with these two countries, they are beautiful countries but language barriers, cultural barriers [inaudible09:40] we're already here, let's try to make this work here. We got lucky, we both got jobs here. We got the job that got the visa, the h1B visa, took five and a half years to get to that process. Michelle: And it was a job, jobs we both hated. But we were handcuffed because of the, you know, green card situation. And so we had to stay but -- Jack: Yes, but yes, it was just something, let's see if we can make this work here because we like it here. And we -- James: Got it. Jack: Beautiful neutral ground also for us. James: So do you think that as an immigrant, did that whole life situation gave you a boost, a reason for you to be successful in the US? Michelle: Absolutely, it like, I think it was incredible, it gives you an incredible drive and hunger. Like I don't come from a wealthy society like Jack's, you know. I was going back to a third world country, you know, yes, from a middle-class family, but still to a very poor society. And so for me, yes, that, you know, that was an incredible drive, you know. You still go back home and those wealth disparities between the haves and have nots are brutal. And so you definitely don't want to be caught in the haves not part. You want to be caught in the other group of people. So, yes, that was definitely a big, big drive for me for sure. Jack: Yes, absolutely, yes, same here. I mean, but a different way. Here, it's more like I could, anytime I could have left and go to Germany, first-class country, Mercedes Benz, would've gotten a good job with a BMW as a business car and expense budget and staying in nice hotels and all those kind of stuff. But the overall I mean, there's something really amazing about the US and I keep saying and it's not like blind nationalism. It's just for business and for success and for comfort, and for just that particular business. It's just an amazing country. It's like so once we started setting our eyes on that, it's like, it's so easy to do this. And definitely helps to be an immigrant, I don't know if the hardship helps if you use them, right. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So we use them as fuel. We used them as a reason why we needed to succeed because we did not want to live a life like I was travelling 100%. I mean, sounds glamorous, like I was jumping the plane on Monday morning going somewhere. But I was staying in Holiday Inn Express where ants were crawling up the walls. And in some cases, and usually, in small towns, where there are five restaurants, three of them are fast foods and I was like working in some companies up till midnight and I didn't enjoy it. So I use those things as fuel to say okay, I really got to do something extra in order to succeed. Now, having said that, being an immigrant here, which as you can probably confirm, is you start, you see way more opportunity that the non-immigrant see. Because it's not normal to you, what you see around you is all new. So as it's new, you look at it from a different angle and you see the holes in it, based on compared to what you see in other places in the world. And it's like well, and any kind of opportunity that ever existed is really masking itself as a problem. So you see, like anything that created like glasses, have been created because people don't see up with eyesight anymore. The problem is the eyesight gives is the solution. So anything even multifamily is the solution to a problem. You take a problem, you take a problem property that's been run down and you make it into the prettiest property in the neighbourhood. You provide a solution for people who want to save, solid, good well-working place, affordable place to live you can make something out of that. And it's true for everything and as an immigrant, I have a feeling you see that much more than then if you're born and raised here and it's everything is just normal. James: Yes, yes. Hey, I had a friend from the UK and he left the UK came to the US and he kept on telling me this. I don't know whether the UK or entire Europe, right, I mean it's a well to do country, it's a rich country but there's no easy part to break out from your circle.You can't break out as a breakout and go to the next level, you’re always within that, you're probably working, you're earning, you're learning, you are living an average life like everybody else, but you can't break out to the next level. So I'm not sure how is that in Germany, but in the US. Jack: Plus Germans, they don't move a lot. So you're on top of it, almost like down by your social circles, that like there's a party, a thing and a friendship. So if you start breaking out, you become you're almost alienating the people around you. Michelle: An anomaly. Jack: An anomaly. James: Okay. Jack: And if you don't have the stamina to keep that off and build a new circle of friendships or so, then you're going to be pulled back down. And that's another benefit as an immigrant, it's like, hey, it's like you didn't burn the boat but you cut the ties. It's a brand new world, it's a brand new opportunity, you associate yourself and make friends with those people that you want to make friends with. And it's just a, it's almost, it's a brand new world. It's a different thing. James: Got it. Michelle: I think especially in Jack's case, you know, resonates with that because he comes from a very small town in Germany. And he's like, there are some people that even though I didn't want to socialize, I had to because it was such a small town. James: Yes, that's true. Jack: Once when I was younger I was in college, I went to study in Spain for half a year. I came back went to my favourite bar and they just asked me, hey you looked tan, what do you want to drink? So nothing changed in like eight months or so. And not a single thing had changed, the same people were sitting at the same desk, tables, in the same bar, drinking the same drink. And 20 years later, still is nothing has changed. It's still, you know, look older and unhealthier but other than that it's the same thing. James: Yes. That's maybe that's why the index happiness index is much higher in some European country. People are just happy with the way they are, right? Jack: Yes, and there's no judgment in that. Michelle: Yes. James: Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to rush? Why do you want to get rich just leave as it is, right so? Jack: Yes, there's nothing set to be there but if you have ambitions if you enjoy growth, like a bit like we enjoy personal growth. We're really on a personal growth journey, it comes with challenges, it comes with new hurdles, it comes with expansion and so it wouldn't be my work. Michelle: And those challenges, you know, are our part, we know are part of the journey. And you think that the goal is you know, a worth goal, but it's really, the goal is a being on a constant process of becoming, an expansion kinda like what Jack said. Jack: And the wealth comes as a side benefit of that. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to your businesses. So you guys, you had your green card, you came here. You worked for how many years did you work on a corporate life? Jack: Five and a half. Michelle: Five and a half. James: Five and a half, so what happened after five and a half? When did you start your land flipping thing? Jack: Well, the land business, we started about three years in or two years in we realized this is not what we want to do with this job thing. So we started dabbling with real estate. And we really didn't find success until about four years into it, until the end of 2002. So -- James: Hold on, on the two years that you realize that your work is not the thing that you all wanting to do, right? Jack: Right. James: What was that ah-ha moment, say that? Jack: The ah-ha moment was actually, for me was the first particular day that the company of 7000 people, let go a 1000 people in one day. Michelle: Right after September 11. Jack: And the economy did a massive shift downwards, the software company that had grown from 500 people when I joined them to 7000 people, three years later to two or three years later, we're starting to go back down from 7000 to 4000 people. And they did that in one year. As a matter of fact, it was within three days, during that one year. James: Wow. Jack: So one day 1000, another day 1000, another day 1000. These cuts were like for a few months apart from each other. But the first time that happened was when they literally, left and right when they when we were at the customer side, there was a software company. But I don't know anything about software and just wasn't a business, account department. They, business analyst, we were so worried about the customer side, that the phone would ring and our network was shut down. Usually, connect the internet to our corporate networks to get to files and stuff, all of a sudden, nobody could get into the network. It's like, oh, you get it, you get it. Michelle: You know what's happening, right? Jack: We started calling people in other offices, what's going on, you get in, no, nobody could get in. It's like oh, our network is down. Next thing you know, few of them, was over the phone rings, the guy picks up and all the colour leaves his face. And three minutes later, he picks up, he grabs his stuff and says, hey guys, nice meeting you. I was just fired. And he basically picks up his stuff and leaves. And that's it. And I was like, what you mean that's it? Like, again, Germany, if somebody fires you, they have to give you three months, -- Michelle: Three months. Jack: Three months notice. James: I thought it was 12 months notice. Michelle: Yes, so then you can actually train your replacement. Jack: Train your replacement and so on and or least have to pay for three months, some company say go home, but they have to pay for three months. Here, you're off and they gave him I think of four weeks severance if they signed something that they wouldn't sue the company. So and then during the course of the day, a whole bunch of people that I knew were let go. And I was sweating bullets, obviously, you know, we both were sweating bullets, because obviously, we work -- Michelle: And at that point, I had joined actually Jack's immigration, you know, files and paperwork because we figured, okay, there are very few people trying to emigrate from Germany. And there's so many more coming from south of the border, that stuck on Jack's application. And so we were both, you know, on his paperwork. Jack: So if I would have lost that job, we would have 60 days to find another job or leave the country. So at that moment, we realized, okay, this is, we're so breaking replaceable here, we're just a number in this big wheel of 7000 people. And after the day only 6000 people were like, okay, we got it, we got to do something else. We don't like it. After five and a half in an industry, you're almost like pigeonholed in that industry. I didn't want to stay for the rest of my career in that industry. So we wanted to get out. And we didn't know how to do that we just looked around. And after a few months or weeks of looking, we came across real estate, tried all kinds of different things, but couldn't get anything to work until we came across land flip. Michelle: And I think the land flipping thing was even, like falling forward. Jack: Yes, like pure coincidences, just like -- Michelle: We're looking into taxing and taxing you know, taxing investing. And I had gone up to somewhere in Northern California to a taxing option and stumbled upon, you know, a piece of land, a lady that owned a piece of land and we auction it off. And we're like, oh my gosh, you know, how could we do something like this? But instead of waiting until an auction happens, you know, how can we get to people much, much sooner. And because if she's a, you know, an owner of vacant land and wanted out, there must be other people. Jack: So we started sending direct mail to owners of real estate who have back taxes. And only people that own land, call us back. And -- James: You know what, that is exactly happened to me. I was trying to look for houses and all the people with land call me back. I said I don't want land, I want houses. Jack: There you go, you just missed out on a big opportunity right there. James: Yes, I should have known you guys. Jack: And then one guy had a property, it was worth about $8,000. But he hadn't done it, what's called a percolation test to make sure to put a septic tank in there, to see how the water, how fast the water sinks in the ground and it hasn't passed the septic test. So to him, it was worthless and he was leaving the state and he was wanting to leave. And he's like you guys can have that thing. And it's like, well, how about $400, he's like take it. So we got this thing for $400. And we sold it literally the next day to the neighbor across the street for $4000. James: Wow. Jack: And that became the beginning -- Michelle: And that's because our negotiation skills sucked. We were, the neighbor shows up Jack: And they just offered 4000 and we said, yes. Michelle: We were ecstatic, you know. Jack: Instead of like negotiating, we're just like -- James: You were like 10 times more, that's it, done, right? Jack: Right. And then the next deal was 10,000, the next deal, babe then we got to deal with like 21 properties for $30,000 that we sold for over $100,000. And then all of a sudden things started working. And then we also realize that most people that want to get rid of these properties don't actually even own property taxes. So now we go after all the general land and we generated millions of dollars, and we started doing this part-time then. Then Michelle quit her job because she was on the visa, started this full time. And then in March of 2003, I got, we got the green card. And then a few months later we felt comfortable. Michelle: I retire again. Jack: Retire, exactly. James: So my wife styles me. Jack: Then so in October of 2003, we quit our job, but it just we stumbled into that, bonded, built it up. And then for several years, we put the blinders on and all we did was land flipping. We only put our head up when the market crashed and everyone around us was losing money and we're still making lots of money. And then that's when we started buying single families and then later apartments. Michelle: Because we could buy houses here for forty, fifty thousand dollars, you know, with five grand in repairs and rent them for anywhere between $900 to $1100. James: Yes. Michelle: So you know, it made sense. And we had all the cash profits, you know, from the land business, because that land business actually, we're able to grow it very rapidly to almost an eight-figure business. You know, the first year we did about 60 deals, the second year, we did about 120 deals, 130. Jack: The third deal, 3800 deals. Michelle: Because we use them, we figured out a way to flush a lot of these properties. And by using auctions. So we used to have big live auctions, you know, we advertise on TV, radio, billboards, periodicals, online flyers. And get like 600 people to a room here in the Phoenix Convention Center, and sell them in one day 250, 200 to 250 parcels. And so we were quickly able to scale that and -- Jack: Build a bigger operation then, with like 40 full-time people. At the auction days, we had 120 people work for us, it was a big operation and we built them. And then we use those profits to then get into the forever cash market meaning buy, put asset allocation, as I call it, take the money we made and roll it over into something that brings cash flow for the rest of our lives. Now we have like 50, completely free and clear rental properties, which now have quadrupled in value. And we still own. James: That's awesome. Awesome. It's very interesting on how you stumble upon doing yellow letters. So that's how, I mean, I was looking for houses. And I believe I look at tax lien lease, if I'm not mistaken, people who didn't pay tax because most of the people who have an empty land, they don't want to pay the tax, right? Jack: Right. James: Because I think there's no cash flow, there's nothing coming. So Jack: Exactly. James: So many calls coming back, I was surprised at the number of response, people calling, but was calling all for empty land. And I say, I'm not going to buy that. So but looks like you guys monetize that I, I should have known that. Michelle: And you know, and even there, it's like in our countries, there's no way that you're going to lose your property over for taxes. But here in the US, you do, you know, the tax lien foreclosure method or through the tax [inaudible 0:25:16]. So those are opportunities that perhaps we were able to really, you know, hold on to because neither of our country's -- Jack: We would like, it blows away that people would even let these properties go for taxes, it was a perfect opening for us. And yes, so we monetize it in two ways. We learn, we wholesale them, we wholesale them. And we still do that, we just sold one week, actually two last week and, I don't know, every week there are sales. And we wholesale them, basically we buy something for $2,000 and go sell it for 10, that's not a bad profit, right? James: Absolutely. Jack: You can live off that. And plus, they're very affordable these properties. Or what we also do is we sell a seller financing. So a couple of months ago, there was one particular deal I want to highlight, is we bought the property for $5,000, an empty lot here in the city of Phoenix. And we sold it for $64,000 with a $6,500 down payment. So if you do the math, we paid five for them, and we got 6,500. So we got all ready -- Michelle: Our money is back. Jack: The moment we sell the property, our money is back. And now for the next 20 years, we get $500 a month and we'll make over $112,000 total on a property that we have zero money in, the moment we sold it. James: That's awesome. That's awesome. So let's walk through the land, the best land flipping strategy. Right? Jack: Okay. James: Because you guys have done it many times, right? So first is where do you get the list of landowners? What the, where's the best place to find? Michelle: So there are three possible places, we are still in love with a more difficult one. Because the harder it is for me, the harder it is for everyone else. James: Correct. Michelle: So there are places like Rebel gateway or Agent Pro, where you can get lists. And I think these two -- Jack: Lists services. Michelle: List services that basically, Jack: Online lists services, James: Lists source, right? Is it list source or -- Jack: List source or logic or agent pro 24/7.com. There's a whole host of different websites. James: What kind of list should we look for? Jack: We're looking for land lists, ones with value James: Other criteria, right? Jack: Yes, land, the other criteria is that the land value is below $100,000. Typically, because we found that to be our sweet spot, now you can go up above, but then your response rates are going to drop. [inaudible27:41] the pay for these properties just skyrockets and so on. But you can do those deals like we have a student the other day that made $192,000 flipping a deal that he put on the contract for much more than we usually put the properties under contract for. It went for 80 and he sold then for, what is that, close to 270 or something or 300. And then he made his offer to closing costs 192,000. But usually beyond that, we like out of state owners, but they don't have to be out of state. So there's a couple of other criteria. Then once you get that list, -- Michelle: You send them you know, you send them a letter and you can either you know printing stuff and stamped and lick all your envelopes and your letters. Or you can send it through a mailing house if you want to outsource that and send out letters and just hold on to your seat because you're going to get -- James: You're gonna get a lot of calls. Michelle: A lot of calls. Jack: Right, you're going to get a lot of calls, exactly. We did, for example, yes, when you send out these letters also, so we don't use the yellow letter, we've developed our own letter and split tested that hundreds of times until we got it to a point where we could not improve the performance of it anymore. And so our letter sometimes, there are a few counties where you get lower response rates, but usually, you get at least a four or five, six percent response rate. And it can go as high as 15 to 20%. James: So let's say now someone calling you, say I will land to sell, can you buy from me? What are the things you look for, to see whether you want to take down their number and follow up with them? Jack: First thing is motivation. Michelle: Yes. Jack: Because almost any kind of land sells, it's just if you get it cheap enough. Now, having said that, there are certain areas, certain pockets that we don't buy. I mean, there are areas in Arizona, where its land, an acre of land is worth $500, that's not worth pursuing. So the value needs to be there. So we typically don't just go below $100,000. We also start above 10,000. So that we have, -- Michelle: So you don't get crap. Jack: So you don't get crap. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So good language here. So you gotta get you together, you don't get junk land. James: Thanks for being nice. Jack: Yes, we have that ongoing, she's the foul mouth in the family. Michelle: Hey, you throw me under the bus. Jack: So then you, yes, you sent out these letters, I thin I forget the question. James: The question is, once they call, what are the criteria -- Jack: You asked them a few questions, you go through a list of questions that we created the script for and asked like if there's early access, if there is utility to the properties, and none of those things is a deal-breaker, they just determine how much you ultimately going to offer for property. James: Got it. And how do you determine what you gonna offer? Jack: Comparables, you run for market comparables similar to houses plus there are a few extra ways, like for example, particularly in rural areas, there might not be comparables of the same size. So if you're looking at five acre parcel, and you only have like 10 and 20 acre parcels, and there's no other five acres to sold or listed, you gotta adjust for size sometimes. So basically, a 10-acre parcel is listed or sold for $30,000. Well, five acres, not automatically worth 15, it's more worth a little bit more, because in rural areas, the smaller the parcel, the higher the price per acre. Michelle: Yes. Jack: So you get down, it's like the other way around, the bigger you go, the more kind of volume discount you get on the acreage. So going from 20 to 40 is not a doubling, it's more like a one and a half times in value. James: Got it. Jack: So 20 is, so the value over 20 years because of comparable shows you that's $40,000 and an 80 is not a 20 to 40 or 40-acre parcel is not $80,000. It's more like $60,000. So there's kind of you can adjust for those things. But the nice part is we buy our properties for five to 25 cents on the dollar. So that's the key to this entire thing. Because when you buy at 10, 15, 20 cents on the dollar, you can be off in your analysis and still make money. And you can make money by selling the reseller of financing and getting a down payment that pays for the property. And you have so much margin of error and so much offer in there that it's almost impossible and I'm not saying it is but it's almost impossible to screw up. James: Yes, yes. And what tool do you use to find those comparables? Jack: We use, we go on Zillow, we go on Redfin, we go on realtor.com, we go on landwatch.com, the same free websites, because I ideally go on the MLS, but the MLS only has, doesn't have all the land is allowed land it sells like owner to owner. And also even if you have access to the MLS, we do deals from Hawaii to Florida. Our students do deals out of the country, you usually only have access to the MLS in one little pocket. So it's impossible to almost have access to the MLS all over the country. Michelle: And it's relatively easy to do the comparable analysis we develop, like our own proprietary software that basically connects through you know, to Zillow, Redfin and all these services. So when I'm at a record, you know, and I'm looking at it immediately it populates for me, you know, whatever comparables. And if it's a little bit, you know, more, if it takes a little bit longer for me to do that, it's maybe eight to 10 minutes, you know, to look up a record elsewhere, specifically, like if it's an info lot, and it's completely built out, you kind of have to like back into the value of the land by figuring out, you know, what are the average, you know, prices in homes in this area? What is the average square foot? How much would it take a builder to, you know, building your house and, and kind of that way back into the value by -- Jack: So we build five methods to the value of the thing, not less, not the least is actually assessed value, any counties the assessed value as a relationship to the market value. And if you can prove over the first 10, 20 analysis that you do that this relationship is reliable, and you can just use the assessed value too for evaluation. Michelle: In a particular county. Yes. James: So you have to pay property tax on all this land, right? Do you try to flip it within the year so that you don't pay property taxes? Jack: As a matter of fact, the way most of our students are doing this is that they don't actually ever buy the property. What they do is that they put the property on a contract and then go market the property right away, and then either do an assignment or do it what's called a double closing, where they use the same day transaction where they buy it and sell it both in the same day. And the buyer brings up all the funds that pays everyone. So -- James: That's a wholesaling technique, right? Jack: It's a wholesaling technique, James: Yes, like in houses, that's what -- Jack: Exactly it's same, the same technique just that we use land for it. And the nice part about land is there's no tenants, no toilets, no termites, there's no repairs. There's no you don't have to show anyone the property. Michelle: James and in the competition -- Jack: Is almost none. James: That's why so many people call me. Jack: Somebody on this podcast just told us that he walked away from owning land because he didn't know -- James: I know. You know, I was thinking that time why are these people selling all their land. I mean, there must be some business here. But I was so busy looking at houses, right. And I thought… Jack: Right and that's the normal thing. So there's almost no competition. And for the last 12 years, we have done this entirely, virtually we have not looked at a single piece of land ourselves. James: Yes. Jack: Google Maps, Google Earth, you can see it all, you don't, Google Street View, you can just drive by your lot, take pictures. And it's all there, no reason to get dirty and dusty out there. Michelle: And that's another thing that I think I want to add in terms of like how simple it is. And now that we've like perfected our system, how predictable it is, you know, is that when we started looking into real estate, because we're both not from here, we had no clue completely clueless about construction, about estimating repairs for kitchen or bathrooms, for flooring, for roofing, we had no idea. And you don't have to deal with any contractors, any, you don't have to deal with any of those headaches that usually you have to deal with improve property when you're dealing with land. So that's something else we forgot to mention. Jack: And that's actually why we also, the main reason why we didn't jump from that multifamily right away, but we took the bridge of single families because we first needed to learn the details of how much does it cost to rehab a kitchen and the bathroom, and the flooring and windows and things like that. We didn't want to tackle a $10 million project first. We wanted to go, start small, so we bought some rental houses with their own money so if we make mistakes, it costs us money and not our investors. And little by little we then learned and after realizing that we can manage those also remotely because our houses are in three different markets; Phoenix, Cleveland, Omaha and an even though new houses in Cleveland, I just hold a show last week. I may have a few houses that I couldn't even find anymore because I haven't, the last time I saw them was like eight years ago, and they spit out cash flow every month. The property management companies who charge them, everything is good. So after that experience was like we're ready for a step up and now buy the bigger buildings and manage them. And we can also do that remotely. James: Okay, that's awesome. So I'm thinking why did I miss this opportunity, right? And I think the answer to my question was, I do not know who to sell to. So how did y'all solve the problem? How do you go to market, okay, today you get land, how do you go and find the seller? Jack: So initially, we started with eBay and newspapers and then we figured out this big land auctions. But the big land auction stopped working about 2007, 2008. Michelle: And started doing online auctions. Jack: And then we started doing online auctions, we shifted, started everything online. So since about 2008, the middle of 2008 now, we have been pursuing and we have been selling all our land online through websites like Craigslist, through Zillow, through MLS. If you own the property, if you have a paragraph in it, it's just that you're allowed to market it. You can even a property if you own it, it's easy to sell it on the MLS anyway, if you don't own it, you can have a paragraph in your contract which we have, that allows you to market this then you can put it off to the brokerlessMLS.com for $99 goes on the MLS. Again, but in other, this land specific websites like land watch, landfliprealtor.com again, land of America and the biggest one that is right now driving the most traffic for us and everyone else is the Facebook marketplace. James: So they are people looking to buy land from people? Jack: Oh, lots of people like -- Michelle: Facebook marketplace and Facebook groups land, land groups. Jack: Yes, Facebook land groups. Yes, there's a big market. I mean, we focus on three kinds of land. Number one [inaudible 0:38:34] lots, can sell immediately to a builder. Number two, the lots in the outskirts of town, right, if this is the city right on the outskirts of the city, that's where we still buy land because it's in the path of growth. Cities like San Antonio, cities like Austin, cities like Dallas, cities like Phoenix, cities like LA, like Denver, all over the country, they're growing, their growing infill. They're there. They're growing in the outskirts of town we're there and there are two ways and the third way is we're focusing on larger acreage in the more rural areas. And that is for the multi-billion dollar market off RV, ATV's, hunters, campers, how would you love to have a 40-acre ranch out into the hills of East Texas, right? Wouldn't that be beautiful? James: Yes. Absolutely, Jack: Yes. And there's millions of people that are looking for that. And then we put the one on top because we get so cheap. If you offer those properties with seller financing, they sell very quickly. Michelle: Or a discount -- Jack: Or discount or market value, wholesale, there is price, will advertise it's a good property, it sells very quickly. And for example, one of our students just posted something that they put, they put an ad on the Facebook marketplace and within 24 hours that has 4250 people look at it and comment and message them. And obviously, they had to take the ad down and had multiple offers on the ads in one day. Now that's not necessarily typical, it might take a few weeks for the property to sell. But there are buyers with it's a b2c market right, we're the business to the consumer market. And the end consumer buys a lot of these lots and the [inaudible40:18] lots are B2B to the builders. Michelle: Yes. James: And how do you check the entitlement of the land? What is it zoned and all that? Jack: There's another company, Michelle: Yes, so you go through a title company, make sure titles free and clear. Jack: There are title companies that we use are not the same companies, different department that we use when buying a $10 million apartment complex than when we buy for it for a $30,000 piece of land. Obviously, the cost is different because they charge us a minimum cost, which is usually anywhere between $700 and $1200 a deal. But if you're about to make $50,000 on there, you can pay $800 and then make 14,200, still okay. James: What about land, which has a utility or going to get utilities, is that much higher price than? Jack: Usually it is and usually it's already, Michelle you can. Michelle: Go ahead. Jack: Usually, it's already in the assessed value included, occasionally it's not because the assessors like a year or two behind. But it's definitely already when you run your comparables, it's already in the market because that word is out and then other properties in the market are going to be listed higher, which tells you, okay, or listed or sold higher, which shows you the market value is higher. So your offer is going to be higher and the seller is going to be happy to accept it. And you make more money in the process. Michelle: And it's much more attractive to buyers too. Jack: And it sells quicker. Yes. James: Yes. So I can see people like me doing this, right, because I already have done the yellow letter marketing, I know all the languages and you know all that. But so anybody can do that, right? It's a simple business, which makes a lot of money. And you are basically bridging the gap between people who need the land versus marketing to their direct seller who is in a distressed situation or who just want to get out from. Most of the time they inherited the land, they don't want to pay tax and they just get rid of it. Jack: Looks like you talk to a few of them. James: I did, talk to a few of them. A lot of them said hey, you know, my mom gave me and she died and now I have to pay property tax on it. And can you buy it or not? Jack: Exactly right. Michelle: So you're helping them and then you're helping your buyers too. And I think the how quickly you sell the property has a lot to do with how you market the property, how what kind of listing you create, you know. There's a lot of crap where you just show a piece of dirt and no, you need to dream it, you know, you have a catchy headline. I mean, you have to understand a little bit of marketing and copy and grabbing people's attention and so on and so forth. But nothing that you can't learn. James: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And what do you think? I mean, you have a property software on it, right? What problem does it solve? Michelle: So what that does is, so back in the day, when we were starting, and we were doing in just a few deals, you know, we could manage to keep our stuff, you know, on paper, on an Excel spreadsheet. But the moment we basically started really scaling this, you know, at the point that we started doing the auctions, we could no longer continue using Excel spreadsheets, we really needed you know, a CRM. And not just a CRM to keep track of our buyers and our sellers, but to keep us organized in our process flow. From the moment that the mailing went out to the inbound call being received to are we ready on the status where we've done research and ready to send an offer, has the offer come back, accept it and we sent this out to title escrow, is it back? Is it ready to be put into the catalogue for the auction, you know, for sale? And so it basically it's a process deal flow from beginning to end for land specifically. Jack: And we build the software in-house that guides you along step by step through the process of buying a property, keep them organized, like statistics, as tax, there is a built-in buyers website, seller's website, calculator for the numbers and things like that. James: So why do you need like, you know, like you said, you have like 15 staffs, right, you have the CRM, what function does the staff do? Jack: The staff does the work, I mean, the CRM organize to work for you, but somebody needs to put in the data. And somebody really needs to press the buttons and do the -- Michelle: And somebody needs to pick up the calls from the buyers. Like we have a lady that is just in charge of that as of this position, basically, there are other people making sure that the phone rings and she's just answering them. Jack: But having said that, this is us, right, we want to spend our time with our 11-year-old daughter travelling the world. We want to spend our time focusing on apartment complexes and not focusing but spending our time, we love learning right and looking at complex deals and things like that. So after building our land business to the level that wanted to build it, we started putting a team in place of it. Having said that, we have many students that run one of them, at the top of the head, I think of one of them is also a coaching organization. He is on track this year to do 120 deals alone with one assistant with one virtual assistant. So the thing is, because it's simple because you don't have to rehab anything, because if you don't have to do anything like that, he can do a, he can do 120 deals just as a two-man or a man and woman, kind of show. And so you don't need a big staff is a point, we have a staff of like somebody picks up the phone calls, answer them they, you can outsource everything. So we use a mailing and a call center to take the phone calls, we use a mailing house to send out the letters. So what we have inhouse is somebody does the deal analysis to figure out what the properties are worth, and somebody who team of two people that prepare the listings and go sell the properties. Anything else you don't really need, anything else you can do, you can outsource. Michelle: And documentation, unless you like to work with documents, paperwork. Jack: But all of that is electronic. Again, it comes in we have buyers signed by DocuSign. We have, we scan things, we put it on to Dropbox, we use different files. We attach them to our CRM and stuff. But it doesn't require a lot of people to do this, which makes it even more profitable. James: Yes, yes. I mean, I think you've sequence it very nicely so that you can scale gracefully and you can have your own time too, awesome. Jack: Probably the biggest thing I think that this business because there's no competition and as you said the sellers have people that are, there are people that inherited this property, they're not getting 25 letters a week, like the hospitals. They're getting nothing a week, so when your letter comes in and when you make that offer, we sent the offer by mail to them, we give them 10 days to actually accept the offer. Then when we buy it, we get a contract and we have three months or four months or six months, whichever we want to close on it. So it destresses the entire thing. That means we can design this business around our lives. And so the life designing with a life -- Michelle: Retrofitting it into the business, Jack: Yes, determining when we have free time. So it's truly a business that can be done based on everyone's work schedule and in full time can be designed such that you work with around the things that are important in your life. James: So does it still work now in this economic cycle? Jack: It's actually right now is the best market that we have seen in probably 15 years. Michelle: Yes. James: Why is that? Jack: Because the market is up so it means that buyers are, still buyers will, the sellers will always be there. James: Sellers always be there, yes. Jack: There's always going to be people that inherited the property and don't want it anymore. But the buyers are right out there, right now out there in the market. They're positive, they're upbeat, they want to buy these properties. They want to take them up, take their RV's up there. Michelle: Ride their RTV's. Jack: Ride their RTV's, spilled something on it so the properties are flying off the shelves, and probably the big right now our properties and our students' properties, we see the highest margins that we've probably seen since we teach this. James: Awesome, awesome. Michelle: We have people that are doing this that are you know, stay at home moms, single moms to Rob, who's a dentist, he no longer is a, well, he will always be a dentist, I guess. But he sold his practice because, you know, 10 months into the land flip he's like, I don't need to be behind the chair anymore. And now his wife who is also a dentist is looking to sell her practice as well, to people that are having a job still in parallel because they, you know, they are already 30 something years in it. And they're like they have just one more year for their pension. So they don't want to go back and are doing it in parallel. I mean, we have -- Jack: It's across the board. Michelle: It's across the broad, from all works of life. James: Yeah, I can see anybody doing this, right? It doesn't take a lot of time and effort, not like house flipping or even rentals or… Michelle: Yes, in the house flipping world, you get a call from a seller and he says I'm interested. I mean, you better meet him at the property, like within a few hours, because you're going to have two or three people that are chasing the same house. James: Yes, yes, yes. That's what happened to me. I missed out on the land flipping, I went house flipping, life has become so busy. So coming back to the next level commercial asset, not the next level. I mean, the other commercial asset class that you guys are doing, which is multifamily, right. And you said you're doing it so can you explain that to me why you're doing that? Jack: Yes, we're doing that for long term generational wealth. So in other words, right now we do syndicate deals. So we have some deals that we make very good money, but and we have our assets and our paid-off properties. But so we wanted to take the next step in complexity, the next step and leverage the next step in personal growth. So we -- Michelle: Exactly, I think our investing has really followed our own personal journey, you know, of development and growth. So Jack: Right, so one of the things, so we started buying these properties. And the first one, we realized, we syndicate it with our investors. And then the second one, the first few we syndicate investors. As a matter of fact, the first one we came in as a junior partner. So we raised the thing, the guy that couldn't raise all the money. And the moment he was about to lose this deal and he basically said, like, if you guys raise half of the money, you get half of the deal, which is obviously a great, great deal. I've never come across that. Michelle: And we're gonna learn how to do it, as he has been doing this for many years. I'm like, that sounds like a perfect situation. Jack: But we also needed to put in $80,000 in escrow deposit, which we could have lost. So it was, he asks for something and he gave something, was a great deal. So we came in, we ended up raising 60% of the money. And doesn't matter, we didn't get more than 50% of the deal. We got in we learned a ton and then we started doing this on our own. And the first few deals like there was just, we have a lot of income, but we have like your cash availability is not always $3 million, right? So we basically looked at it as like we needed $3 million. Let's put some money in ourselves and let's raise the rest through syndications. So we did a syndication for the last few deals. And at some point of time, we might transition into doing deals without investors, the reading hold on for the long term, 10, 20, 30 years, and then our daughter can potentially then inherit and she can keep them or sell them and upgrade them and so on. But in essence, it's a way to, what attracted us to it over the single families is that there's another layer of management, another layer of separation between us and the actual issues on the problem. Michelle: Yes, because now all of a sudden, you know, when you're looking at 100 doors at a time, and that scale allows you to have you know, on the ground, a full time, you know, leasing person, a full-time person for repairs or maintenance. Another one that is turning units around, you know, we have the regional director with, you know, with the property management. And so for us, it's really a lot of asset management, but not the everyday thing of like, would you approve, you know, the repair on a toilet or on this, small things-- Jack: Which, today, I got two more in our single families because they have an authorization limit of $500 on me there because I don't trust them with more. So on a single family, so everything over $500 goes to me, which is literally something three or four things a week that happen especially in summer when it's hot, and AC breaks and so on, that are just like driving me crazy. Because every single time it's like they don't give you the information you need. They don't give you the details you need, you have to jump on the phone call, you have to email back a few times. They don't follow the instructions and how to submit it versus when you operate on a larger property, you can distance, you're removed from these things. You get a status report, you can dive in with your expert partner on the deal, I mean, the regional manager into it. And more than anything, the other thing we realized is you very well know, you can force appreciation and you can force value increase rent, which on the single-family house, you can just, you just cannot do. Michelle: Yes. And elevation is not based on the income but it's fixed but based on other properties. James: Yes, yes I always say that you can build a house, painted with gold, on real gold but the value is still going to be following the other houses surrounding it. Jack: Exactly. James: Are you guys using the depreciation from multifamily to offset the active income on your land? Jack: Yes. Of course, yes. Big time. I mean we -- Jame: That's double right. Jack: We have done on all the units we have, we have done the cost segregation study, and it is literally. Michelle: It shows a lot of the profits from the land flipping even from the educational business, you know, it's a very purpose-driven business for [inaudible 0:54:03] and it throws a nice chunk of cash. And I'm like, we need to, you know, protect that. And so we're, it feels like, you know, with apartment investing, we get to have the cake and eat it too, in terms of, you know, getting the cash flow in. Jack: We get cash flow, we get income, any cash flow, we get appreciation and we get the tax benefits that wipes out almost the entire income of the other things that we do. So it's a it's like a dream come true. Yes. James: Yes. So you want to consider real estate professional, not because of the land, but because of that single-family homes? Jack: Because of really everything I mean, Michelle: That's all we do. James: If you do just land, are you considering real estate professional? Jack: Yes, the land is real estate. As a matter of fact, I always say that when somebody says I've never dealt with land, only do houses. I said like, it's actually I said, it is actually an incorrect statement. Because you have never bought a house -- James: Without the land? Jack: What you buy is the land and the house on it. James: Yes, correct. Jack: That's truly a land transaction that had a house on it. The legal description of the property is not the house, it doesn't say it's a four-bedroom, three bath house, no, you're buying this lot, lot number 23 with whatever it happens to be on it. And what is on it is a luxury house or a dump is just defines the value differences. But so with a real estate professional, doesn't have to be defined by analysis, or commercial, or you can be land too James: Got it, got it. So let's go to a bit more personal side of it. So no technicals? So why do you guys do what you do? Michelle: I think for me, you know, in the beginning, it was about us having freedom of money, time, you know, relationships. And right now, it's about freedom of purpose, you know. It has you kind of like, you know, when you're struggling, somebody is listening to this, they're struggling, or they have a job they hate or whatever, the very first thing that you look at is how can you take care of your immediate family? When you have that taken care of, then you start looking at, okay, how can I, you know, start, you know, helping them my church or helping in my community or helping on a much, much larger scale. So for me, you know, a lot of my, you know, what drives me right now, and my purpose and my why is to become a mentor and a leader. You know, for other women to start investing in real estate, to start, you know, having their money work for them, for example, and set an example, you know, I want to be a hero for my daughter. And I want her to also grow into a lady that you know, knows how to manage your finances, that is very comfortable with investments, whether small or large and so on. So, Jack: For me, along the similar lines, I remember the year 2007, when we were and we had accomplished our first major, big financial goal, which was a certain number, I feel everyone has their number and goal in mind. And we had just moved into a gorgeous, semi-custom home that we designed from scratch up and all of a sudden, we're like, you reach those goals, and you almost like fall into a hole. And we fall in that hole because you expect to be like all candy and rainbows and everything and unicorns, but actually the quite opposite of that. But it's like for a moment you celebrate and then you're like, what now, right? So we basically sat down and was like, okay, so we can sit down now and we can go retire in essence, we can go sit down, we can do nothing. But we realized, for example, there's a charity in Michelle's home country Honduras, that we said we could go work in charities, in charitable work. But we realized, we're really very good at getting businesses to a profitable stage, we're good at kind of creating money, Michelle: That's kind of like our genius. Jack: And so that we are not the person that's going to live in the Honduran in rain forest jungle and feeding the poor, so but it's close to our heart. So why don't we stick to what we love doing Michelle: Our strength. Jack: So that we generate the money that we can be more impactful in those kinds of things. And as a side thing, I love real estate, I mean, I don't see myself not doing real estate ever. I mean, I hate it the entire the IT industry. I'm not personally involved in the continuous development of our software, because I'm kind of scarred from that time in the IT industry. I get involved into the what the vision is of it, but, and then we have a great guy that drives the implementation of these things. But we focus on deals, we focus on and if I can focus deals for the rest of my life and opportunities then I'm a happy camper, it's just what I love doing. So and it throws off money and that allows us to help more people, that is awesome. Michelle: And be transformational in the way, you know, and the way we treat our investors and the way that you know, people that want to participate in our deals. Jack: So the teaching side of things, we started the teaching side of things also kind of like almost like a mission kind of the point of view that not that we need the rest to save the world. But there are so many people out there that do real estate either the wrong way or that they don't know that there's an easier and simpler way that you can do real estate. And learn and grow build the confidence and capability in your life that then allows you to do whatever the heck you want to do afterwards that we feel like I was called to teach this and show the land flipping part of things to people. So they can also get on their own feet. And we have had years where we lost money in that business where we put it on their own pocket for and it was still fulfilling because we see the difference that it makes in the people's life. So we were committed and our core values are to be transformational. Michelle: Yes. And it's not just walking a person through a deal by really sculpting someone's spirit you know, someone's confidence, someone's courage through the process of a real estate deal. So it's incredibly rewarding work for sure. James: Okay, okay. So why don't you tell about how to find you guys. How can the listeners find you? Jack: Easiest way to find us on the land flipping side is to go to landprofitgenerator.com and you can also go to www.orbitinvestments.com, there's a link over to the land flipping side. There's a couple of other links on too. James: Okay. Michelle: I'm on Facebook Michelle Bosch, Instagram michelleboschofficial. Jack: And again on the land site we since we don't teach the apartment complex things, you do that. We have no educational things about that, we just, we do syndicate with investors. We do probably similar deals and but on our website like all the educational things all about land flipping. So we have a Facebook group called Land Profit Generator Real Estate Group. So everything we do on the land side is called land profit generator. So you look for land profit generator, you find us and orbit investments is more like the overall holding company above everything else with links to all the different pieces that we do. James: Awesome. Well, Jack and Michelle, thanks for coming in. I learned so much and I learned what I didn't miss too, but I'm sure the listeners learned a lot of things from today's podcast. Thank you for coming in. Michelle: Thank you so much for having us, absolutely. Jack: Looking forward to seeing you at the next mastermind. James: Absolutely. Thank you Michelle: Thank you, bye.

James: Hey, audience. This is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth through Value Add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, I have Anna Kelley from Central Pennsylvania, who owns around 175 units, around $16 million in worth until now. And you know, I should have invested passively in 900 units. And she's also under contract on around 200 units right now. Hey, Anna, welcome to the show. Anna: Thank you so much for having me. Good to see you, James. James: Good to see you too. And, I mean, for those who do not know, we also have a YouTube channel that shows all our interviews. And you can catch up with us on iTunes or Stitcher or YouTube or Spotify so go and do that. I'm actually in one of my property here in San Antonio so trying to do it from my office. And Anna, are you in your office or where are you right now? Anna: I'm in my home. I'm not actually in my office. James: Yes. Good. Good, we work from home, I guess, right. Anna: Yes. James: So Anna, why don't you tell our audience about yourself? Anna: Sure. So I started out in real estate about 20 years ago, just kind of dabbling in real estate. And I started out doing some property flips and some single-family rentals. And then I slowly started moving up to small multi-unit properties, like four-unit apartment buildings, 10 unit apartment buildings. And I recently last May retired from my full-time career, I worked for AIG for 20 years. And I really built my real estate portfolio up on the side, part-time for all of those years. So busy mom, have four children. And I just went full time. And now I'm focused on and have been focusing on for a while much larger apartment building assets. James: Got it. So let's go back to the beginning. I mean, you work at AIG, which is a big insurance firm. And can you just quickly tell us what was your role? Anna: Sure. So at AIG, I had various different roles. I did internal management, consulting, product development, and then I moved into a role that was very compliance heavy. We worked with private placement hedge funds wrapped in an insurance product. So we worked on SEC audits and filings, reviews of PBMs and hedge funds and things of that nature. James: Got it, so it looks like you have some PPM level syndication experience, even at your workplace, I guess, is that right? Anna: Definitely, we worked with alternative investments for about 17 of the 20 years that I worked there. James: So you work there for 20 years and when did you start to real estate venture? Anna: Why I'd say, you know, I dabbled, I bought some, you know, singles and I bought a flip. And then 12 years ago, when I moved from Texas to Central Pennsylvania to start my husband's chiropractic business, we were looking for properties to lease for his office space. And we found that it was very difficult to do that. But they had a lot of buildings that came with tenants, you know. Older buildings on Main Street that had been converted to businesses on the first floor, most of them had residential rental space on the top floors. And so we bought a building and inherited tenants. We had three tenants with his commercial space. James: Okay. Anna: And then that kind of threw me into the idea of having tenants and having a little extra cash to cover the mortgage. And then at that same time, James, we sold a house in Houston that we lived in, liquidated everything, we had to come here and start a business. And so I knew it wasn't very wise for me to buy another home right away. And AIG let me work from home on a very temporary trial basis to see how it worked out. So I bought a four-unit apartment building for us to live in. So we downsize significantly and house hacked, basically, to make sure that our business expenses, you know, for the space and our housing expenses were covered if I happen to lose my job, you know, 12 years ago when we started out. So that got me into starting to think about and invest in residential real estate. James: Got it. So you basically, you did not like had an ah-ah moment, I need to go tomorrow and buy real estate. You were actually thrown into it? Anna: Well, I'll say this before I went to work for AIG. I was in private banking, I was a Financial Relationship Manager for Bank of America. And so I handled the top 10% of the wealth in our bank, both small businesses and individuals. And what I found is that many of them owned real estate and had accumulated their wealth in real estate or were already investing in real estate. So in my young 20s, I was very interested in real estate thought that it was something lucrative that one day I'd like to own, but I really didn't start thinking too much about it until I had my first child in 2003. And all the flip houses shows, you know, we're coming on and I thought, oh, I can flip a couple of houses and be home with my child. And so I dabbled in flipping before the rental real estate. But my move here is what kind of gave me the impetus to think about rentals more quickly. James: Got it. So, I mean, I never had a woman guest until now. So you are the first one. And I'm very -- Anna: Oh, thank you. James: We have a lot of listeners that are listening everywhere and I'm sure a lot of them are women. So I'm trying to get from a woman’s perspective, on how could they start like what GF started, right? I mean, your husband is working and you are working too. Like, I would say what do you think could be the secret formula, or they're just the formula on how can any woman start while they are in your own position? Anna: Sure, you know, there are different ways to starting, a lot of it James truly does depend on the personality of the person, your family dynamic. You know, how much support you have for watching your children? What other income sources you have, you know, when you're starting out? And how much basically time and money that you have available to get started? So, you know, people that have very, very limited time might have the significant cash flow or they might, their spouse might make enough money that they could really get started more passively. And that's where maybe they want to start investing in other apartments syndications or getting invested as a passive partner maybe joint venturing with someone that has experienced you know, buying and managing either a single or a small multi or a larger and then just investing with money. And learning how to review the financials and review the operations each month and each quarter. Just to kind of get yourself familiar with what it's like to own and manage an asset might be a good way to get started. For someone like me, that doesn't have any cash and really wants to get invested by investing time, you have a lot more opportunity to really educate yourself through reading books and through podcasts. And going to meetup groups to learn what it takes to ask actively, evaluate deals, find them and hire people to update them and improve the values and put a renter in or you can start learning the skills yourself. You know, my husband and I when we started out, he did a lot of the maintenance and I painted every unit. And I called flooring contractors and you know, designed kitchens and help paint cabinets. I mean, we did everything actively because we started out, we had liquidated all of our, you know assets and started out with quite a bit of debt to start a business and we're running that. So we really didn't have a lot of money. So we invest at the time. So there are many ways to get started. But I'd say definitely align yourself with other people that already know what they're doing, attend some meetup groups, listen to podcasts. And then just decide whether you want to be active or passive for your first one or two until you kind of learn what you like, what your personality works well with and kind of what works within your family dynamic. James: Got it. So who convinced who between you and your husband? Did he convince you to, hey let's go and do, spend time and rehab this real estate or did you convince him or how did you? I'm trying to understand how did the discussion happen? Because a lot of people are struggling, I mean could be struggling, right? How do I convince my spouse especially from a woman to the husband side? Usually, the husband can convince the wife, right? But you are the one who's active right now real estate, how did that work out? Anna: Yes. So it's one of those things when we talk about the personality of the individual. When you're married, there are two people involved in your decisions. And my husband and I, from the beginning, have always looked at our finances and our lives as a partnership. But we kind of has our roles in reverse. I mean, he's a doctor, he's a chiropractor, he went to school for a long time. He's very smart. But he's very hands-on and a people person, he doesn't like the finances, he's not financially minded. He's not the kind that wants to be an entrepreneur and grow a big business, like he's content, just having a small practice, and letting me handle all of the finances. So because I had a background in finance and understanding investments, I pretty much have always handled our investments. And when we decided for him to start the business, I kind of took over the operations and learned how to, you know, run a chiropractic business and set up insurance and all that kind of stuff while he was the doctor and saw the patients. And so when it came to real estate, I said, listen, we're starting out with a lot of debt after paying off all of the school that it's just not financially wise for us to do anything other than buying something so we have tenants helping to pay the rent. So it was easy initially to get Vincent to buy his practice and our building, just to be financially wise and not going into more debt. But growing that beyond that was definitely me as the driver, he was busy with this practice. He did not like to do maintenance, but he learned to do it and liked the fact that once we did rehab units, they were worth a lot more and we had a lot more cash and could keep buying them. But I've been told multiple times, slow down, pull off the brakes, we have enough units, why do you want to keep growing? And I am like because I'm passionate about it. And I'm passionate about the wealth that it can create. So I've been kind of the driver. And he's been very supportive and very hands-on for the 70 units that we self manage in our area. But definitely likes that I'm now buying much larger assets where I'm asset managing and he's not involved day to day in the management and maintenance of the properties. James: He must be very happy now. Anna: Very happy, yes. James: Yes, we started with 45 units. And my wife used to be sitting there whenever we were missing our property manager in the beginning, I mean, she was sitting there doing things and I didn't do maintenance. But, I used to be with her and trying to buy this and buy that and make sure you know the contractors are lined up. And it's a lot of work, but it involves teamwork. And yes, we are two different people, we have to learn how to work with each other. Anna: For sure. James: That's good. And so you started with 70 units, with the chiropractic real estate, right? I mean, is it like a commercial center? Anna: It is. It's a commercial mixed-use building. So there's a commercial space that his business lease's from my business. And it had three tenants, three, you know, residential renters and four garages to that property. James: Got it. So you got some kind of tax benefit, I guess because the [inaudible11:44] is leasing from the owner itself, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. James: So get some write off there, good. And how did you, I mean, so after that and then what was the next acquisition that you did? Anna: So James, as many people were affected by the 2008-2009 economic crash. Imagine working for AIG at the time and AIG, you know, coming in and having one of the largest insurance liabilities of any other provider in the country between mortgage insurance and credit default swaps. And I worked for them. So I had already, I had been working for them for a year on a work from home basis. And we thought we were going to be laid off, my stock went from 1-o-1 a share to 43 cents a share. My retirement funds were almost just destroyed. They were destroyed. I lost about two thirds within a week. And I decided, oh man, I'm going to lose my job. My husband has a brand new business with hundreds of thousands of dollars in startup debt and I'm the sole income. So what are we going to do? And the only thing I could think to do right away was to borrow from my 401k, about $50,000 that I had left that I could borrow and buy another four-unit because I thought at least if I buy another 4 unit, I'll have another, you know, $1200 to $1500 dollars a month of cash coming in. And that's in the asset, that is solid and stable that I won't lose any more in the stock market, no matter what happens. So that was my next acquisition. Again, it wasn't really thinking about oh, this isn't a phenomenal investment. It was, what can we do to survive? And I know that cash flow is a good thing. And that residential real estate will not go down in value significantly compared to the stock market. James: Got it. So after that four-unit, what did you buy the next one? Anna: Another four units. James: Okay, and when did you start with the 70 units where you self manage? Anna: Okay, so what we did, we self-managed, again, initially just out of necessity, not having a lot of extra cash, thinking our finances were not super stable because I was the sole breadwinner at that point. My husband's income was nice, you know in six figures gross, but it was covering expenses. And so we just we're continuing to find ways that we could cash flow and make the most cash and be willing to put in the time to do it ourselves and learn at the time. And so we kept buying a couple of single-family homes that we bought as foreclosures, renovated them and instead of selling them as a flip, we did a cash-out refi, we kept them as rentals, we took the proceeds to buy another and another. And then we did the same thing with small four-unit apartment buildings. So four-unit apartment buildings were kind of my niche and the sweet spot for several years chains. Because there were in a smaller area, I'd say maybe a tertiary market right outside of Hershey. And there's not a lot of apartment complex supply, no big complexes, but there's a lot of demand for housing. And so most of the rental real estate here were four-unit apartment buildings that had been built that way or converted, you know, couple decades ago. And there weren't a lot of big buyers buying those four-unit building. So they'd sit for a while. So I kind of I saw a niche where I could buy properties without having a lot of competition. And I could basically treat them like a larger commercial asset, but on a, you know, on a four-unit scale instead of a five or six-unit scale. And so I kind of honed my skill in updating those units, managing those units, raising the values, cashing out repeating. And then decided, okay, now it's time, once I built up, you know, a strong six-figure passive, you know, net rental real estate portfolio, then I decided, now I can retire and I can scale and start going after much larger assets. And so that's what I did. James: Okay, got it. So when was the first time that you acquired a much larger than four-unit property? Which year was that? Anna: Okay, so in 2018, I had basically created a five-year plan James in 2013, that by 2018, I wanted a $5 million portfolio, you know, about $150,000, at least in passive income, and then I would retire and start going for a bigger one. So I'm my goal in four years in 2017. And then just started kind of working my way into, you know, saving six months of salary and expenses for all my buildings and starting to look for larger deals. So I found the first larger deal for me, it was a 73 unit apartment building, right outside of Hershey, Pennsylvania, that I found off the market and I [inaudible16:20] on that with two other owners. That was a six and a half million dollar purchase 73 unit. And we closed on that in 2018. James: Got it. So how did you manage your time? I mean, your husband is working, and you are doing this fourplex, fourplex, fourplex and your four kids. And you give some tips for people who are in a similar situation and how can they manage and be as successful as you are? Anna: You know, I think really the key to my success has just been resilience and grit and determination. I worked truly, most people say oh, rental real estates passive. But I like to say and I totally believe James, that passive income is built on the blood, sweat and tears of active income. And it takes years of active, sometimes to build up the financial wherewithal that you can truly become totally passive. So between my husband's business and my work, and my rental real estate, I truly worked 70 to 80 hours a week over the last 10 years, in order to be able to get to where I am. My four children are all involved in sports, pretty competitive sports. So we have sports every morning, we have sports after school every day. And most days, it's seven days a week, you know, multiple tournaments on a Saturday and on a Sunday. So every waking moment when the kids went to school before I started work, I did real estate. My lunch breaks, I did real estate. My vacation days, five out of six weeks a year, I did real estate, you know, evenings between when the kids got home and I worked, it was real estate. And after nine when the kids were in bed, I often stayed up till midnight to get things done. So it was very time-consuming. But I'm very, very grateful that I stuck with it and did it. And it was just a matter of utilizing every day, I didn't watch TV, we didn't have cable, I didn't go do a lot of recreational things, I really, you know, not nose to the grindstone just focused on building the portfolio so that I could retire and spend more time with my kids. James: Yes, it's really hard work, I can really appreciate what you've gone through. Because I was working and my wife was like running around in the beginning. I mean, I only stopped working after we had like, 340 units. Now we have like, 1300, it's a lot of work, right. So based on what you're saying, it can be done. It's just like not, please don't give excuses, right? Anna: Exactly. I'm here to tell you, you know, if I can do it, working full time, running my husband's business, four kids and doing it, you know, anybody can do it if you just have grit and determination. So you make the time for what's important to you. And I knew that it was important to me to be able to work myself out of my job. And especially with AIG, you know, a couple of years ago, they said, we really are going to sell our unit, and we need to all be prepared to figure something else out in terms of career. So that kind of drove me to have executed my plan in a certain period of time. And now you know, that I'm retired, I'm still very, very busy. But I have the freedom to control my time, you know, to do what I enjoy and go after larger deals where I'm not having to be quite so involved in the day to day. James: Yes Can you define what is grit and determination in your mind? Anna: Sure, so grit is the ability to stick with something, no matter what comes, no matter what obstacles without basically, you know, melting into a wallflower. And just keep ongoing. And, you know, there's been a lot of studies done on what makes people successful. And you know, some kids were tracked from high school, through college, through their professional lives and they were really surprised that the top students like the valedictorian, the [inaudible20:04] rarely ended up actually being the most successful people in their professional lives. It was usually the people that went through a lot of hardships, and just kept going and push through and got creative and figured a way through and around every obstacle and became stronger and more confident, and determined. And those are the people that ended up the most successful. So I just I think it's an extra drive and extra determination and a willingness to keep pushing through no matter what and to not give up on your goals. James: Yes, so look, I mean, I always tell my listeners and whoever talked to me that it's always, you know, whether you want to be successful, or whether you like to be successful, whether you required to be successful so, I mean, if you have been this successful, you must have that, I really need, I really required to be successful. I mean, is that true statement that you came to that way? Anna: I think so. I grew up with very, in very humble means. And I always knew that I wanted to create a different type of lifestyle and a different financial future for my kids and I was just determined to do it. So I've always been driven, I've always taken on challenges. You know, my first job at Bank of America, I won the number one ranked Financial Relationship Manager in Texas and Employee of the Year awards at multiple jobs, my first couple of years. Because I've always had, that I'm going to be the best, I'm going to succeed, I'm going to achieve and do whatever it takes attitude. So I think part of that was ingrained in me from a young age. James: Yes, I think it's important, I mean, just the personality itself and the drive to be successful and the requirement; I mean, because your husband and your AIG was going downhill and you must be successful otherwise, your family, it may not be in a good place, in terms of financial. So that's really good. So describe to me, what was your toughest day in a one day when you have like four kids and all going to all these classes and schools and all that? Have any time where you think that, oh, my God, this is just too much for me as a mom and as a real estate sponsor? And can you describe that feeling and experience? Anna: Yes, I just actually, you know, Facebook is kind of a mixed bag of whether you like it, or whether you don't. But I like the Facebook memories that kind of pop up and remind you of something. And I had something pop up this last week, about a three day in the life of a real estate investor that works full time and has four kids. And I looked back and thought, well, I don't know how I survived it. But back in February of 2018, I believe it was, I had a call that there was mould in the basement and that they were smelling mould. So they opened it up and there was a lot, well, you know, I'm thinking it's probably like a dripping water heater or something we walked in and there was literally like six inches of goopy mould hanging from every rafter of every space in the basement of a three-unit apartment building with the ground floor, a dirt floor. And when we opened it up, I mean, it was just really bad. And what had happened was a hot water heater, pressure relief valve had failed in the basement, nobody seemed to notice nobody called us. The person in hindsight said, you know, I thought my hot water pressure was kind of low and not as hot. And I should have called you well, within about a six week period, six to eight weeks, somewhere in there, our entire three in an apartment building was just covered in mould. And inside all the units, I had to meet the tenants, it was snowing and really bad weather. And I had to call, you know, restoration companies and re-home all my tenants and get all of this stuff out of the property. Right after that, we had another property where a roof blew off in another big storm. And we're handling the kids and multiple other small things were going wrong, we had a couple of frozen pipes because it was a winter that the ground was just frozen for so many days. So we're dealing with frozen pipes, re-homing tenants, working full time, insurance, the tenants all wanted to sue me because there was mould and their kids were sick and going to the hospital. And my kids were just young and very needy. And it was like a two or three week period where I thought I'm done, I can't do this anymore. It's not worth it. It's too hard. And I kind of had a little pity party for a few weeks and said, okay, I need to take a break. I'm not buying anything else. And I took about a three-month break where I didn't buy anything else. And I just kind of took care of those issues. And then, you know, said I need some breather time, we went to the beach. And after I got back from the beach, I'm like, okay, I'm refreshed. It's behind us now that I've handled that period can do anything and just kept going. James: It's crazy the amount of pressure and tense moment that you have during that kind of things with family and issues with the deal. So I want to ask one last question before we go into the details of some of the deals that you have done here. So why do you do what you do? I mean, you don't have to do this right now. Right? Anna: So a couple of things, James, I'm really passionate about real estate, I'm really passionate about wealth building. And there is nothing like real estate to build wealth. You know, I started out teaching clients about mutual funds and stocks and bonds and how they can make you know, eight to 10% returns on their money if you time everything right. And realize that it takes money to be invested in the stock market. It's volatile and it's risky. And really, people can go from nothing to multi-millionaire in a couple of years of investing in real estate if they do it the right way. And so I've just seen the real power in that. You know we went from literally negative $750,000 net worth when we started my husband's business to a several million dollar net worth and just a few years of really aggressively buying rental real estate. And so it changes lives. And I want people to know, especially women, that that you can change your financial family trajectory, not just for today, but for future generations. And also we're providing really good housing to people. So you know, I grew up in government housing, my mom was a single mom, she was a property manager for a government housing apartment complex. And I know what it's like to grow up in an apartment and we didn't have the best amenities. You know, all my friends were wealthy, and I lived in a little apartment complex. And I've worked with inner-city kids who live literally in shacks with dirt floors in the middle of Houston, Texas. And to be able to empower people and say, your life can be different. And I can show you the financial tools to take better steps and to know better so that you can create generational wealth for yourself. And it just empowers me, it drives me to keep doing it, not just for my own wealth accumulation, but to help other people to learn that they can do the same. James: Yes, that's very interesting. I mean, what you say this, anybody can do this, right? And I know a lot of people are listening to you, there will be some people who think, yes, I can do it too. Then there's another group of people, they're going to give reasons, oh, Anna has this, Anna has that, that's why she's successful. So if you are the one who's giving reasons, I know you want to stop that, because indefinitely, you can make money in real estate, especially millions of dollars, if you really work hard. And if you really, really want it, a lot of them just do not want to do the work. They really don't want the success, they just want to continue with their life and just go ahead and do whatever they've been doing and let the life takes wherever it takes them. Anna: Yes and I think part of that James, for so many years, you see these teams, these shows reality TV, and people convince you that it's easy money that you can do it, that you can be successful. There's coaching programs and gurus that you know, charging five, ten, twenty thousand dollars to sign up and learn how to do real estate. And they promise you that if you follow these three steps, you're going to be independently wealthy in a year or two. And I think when reality hits people, and they start investing, and they start to see how hard it actually can be on a day to day basis until you build up that experience and that wealth, they just give up and they feel like failures because they've been sold an unrealistic expectation of getting rich quick in real estate, when it's really the long game. You know, you're playing a long game, it takes sometimes longer than it should you know, some people get lucky or find the right network and connections and very quickly can build wealth. But for most people, it's slow and methodical growth. And it's just people need to realize that it's not easy, but it's not that complicated if they just stick with it. James: Yes. And they are people who did one real estate and failed badly. And they gave up on real estate. So there other people that you know, yes, one time fail doesn't mean anything we could, we would have failed many times, I guess. Right, so. Anna: Sure. I lost money on my first flip. And I was convinced I'd never do another one. And yes, I changed my mind quickly. And I've done a few but rental real estate is really where the wealth build up comes. James: Yes, yes, in my single-family days, I do like 11 rentals, but I was also doing two flips. And I regret doing flips, because I made like, 40,000 on one flip and I buy a loss and $1,000 on another flip. And that thousand dollars feel very painful. Anna: Yes James: Because you shouldn't be losing money in real estate, but it really taught me a lot of things on how I didn't do it right in terms of the flip. But just because somebody did one and they fail, doesn't mean the whole real estate is a scam. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: Definitely make millions of dollars in real estate, especially if you're living in the US. Anna: Yes, yes. James: It's a country where it allows anybody to grow, there is no limit is just you. Right? Anna: Absolutely. James: So no reasons, right? So if you give reasons, that's you so that's the only thing. So let's go to some of the deals that you have been done. And you so you are buying fourplex, fourplex, fourplex. And you started [inaudible30:21] on the 70 units and you self manage and you go into the syndication, why are you going into syndication now? Anna: So, I think some of it comes back to the time and the money, that spectrum of do I have more time or do I have more money? When I got started, I didn't have money and I could have said I didn't have time, but I made time. So it was a heavy, heavy time investment. As I built wealth and as I built more cash flow, it just made more sense for me to be able to scale larger with other partners and to be able to be an asset manager, operator, rather than the property manager or the maintenance person. So I've gotten to a point in my life where even though I've retired from my job, I really want my evenings to be free with my children and just to be wife and mom in the evenings and just spend a certain number of hours a day doing real estate. And so I got to a place where I had to say, you know, how can I really scale if I'm still self-managing many, many more units, it's going to take me a lot longer of full time effort, even though I don't have a job. And I wasn't really willing to sacrifice any more years with my children working more than 40 hours a week. And so I wanted to control my time and continue to scale. So I figured I needed to start working with other people, utilizing other people's time and other people's money. And the larger multifamily allows you to do that because you can afford full-time property management, full-time maintenance staff and really become more of an asset manager and business plan executer than you are an individual who self-managing your own properties. James: Yes, business plan executer, that's the operator definition, I would say. Anna: Yes. James: How do you define operator slash active asset manager in your mind? Anna: Sure. So an operator is basically the person responsible for operating that asset soup to nuts and executing your business plan. So it's generally, you're just general partners. And there will be either all the general partners will be involved in the asset management or overseeing the business plan and making sure that your plan for that particular property is being executed the right way. So for example, if we're buying a value add property, like the 73 unit that we did and the others that I go after, it's a property that is usually poorly managed, its expenses are not being managed well, the rents are below market, and perhaps the units need to be updated in order to maximize the rents so that you can then increase the value of that property. So as an asset manager and operator, I'm working with our property management company or a property manager and with our contractors to make sure that you know, when units come available, we turn those units quickly, we update them on time and on budget, we raise the rents, we get the new tenants in there. So that we can execute our plan to raise the values before we sell or refi. And we work with the property managers to make sure that they're cutting the expenses in the way that we planned, that they're monitoring the expenses, monitoring the rents, making sure rents are being collected, and you're just basically overseeing soup to nuts, all of the things that are supposed to happen to make your asset more valuable. James: Got it, do you think there's a certain advantage of being a local asset manager? Anna: I would say yes, in that really bad, unforeseen, unexpected things happen, like mould damage, or like when blowing roofs off or a hurricane, you can be at that asset very, very quickly. And you can also stop in and visit with your property manager, your property management company on a monthly basis, bimonthly basis and just say, hey, let's walk the ground, show me what you're doing. And there's just never anything as valuable as actually being on the ground and seeing it. However, in today's world, where we have the technology, we have zoom, we have our phones, where we can take pictures, and we can walk around, it's pretty easy to do things virtually as well. So while the operator in me that's always had, you know, my boots on the ground, and always been able to see kind of likes the control of being able to be at a property within an hour. It's not necessary, if you trust your team and have a good team that's boots on the ground, and can just go to your asset maybe once or twice a year. So I haven't really done it from afar. I'm asset managing my first property that we have under contract right now, two properties in Atlanta. And so I'll be sharing asset management responsibilities there. And that'll give me a little better feel for how much easier or harder it is to do from afar. James Got it. Got it. So let's come back to value add. So all the deals that you're buying a presume are value add, right? Anna: Yes. James: I mean, you're adding some things to the operation, either the income or the expense, right? So what do you think is the most valuable value add in your mind? Anna: So I really like Class A to B areas and an older building because your area you can't change, a lot of syndicators go after class C area, workforce housing and older buildings. And so you're struggling not only to bring the asset up to today's standards but also with a tenant pool who may suffer more heavily if we head into a recession or they may be more susceptible to losing jobs and not being able to pay rent. Where when you're in a nicer area where there's really good school districts and people want to live, there's a lot of good employers and a lot of good shopping and things around, you're always going to have people that want to move into that area because it offers the best lifestyle for those people. And so if you can find an older asset, you know, you're not struggling with the area to keep your units filled. It's just a matter of now offering an asset that people want to live in while they are in that area. So I'm really a value add investor, not doing like full major repositions, taking units in a C class area, that's 40% bacon and trying to fill them up. I like stable assets in a stable area that just needs some updating and operational efficiency in order to bring them up to today's standards. James: Good, that's very interesting. I never heard that from anyone else. Because the strategy is for you to look for the good area, but look for older buildings and try to improve from those older buildings, I guess. Anna: Yes. James: Okay. Interesting. But what about the like interior rehabs and do you do any like rehabs on the inside? And do you think is there any specific rehab that you think is more valuable than others? Anna: Sure, you know, it's really market-driven James's I know that you know, but for your listeners, every market demand something different. So where some parts of the country in order to get you to $1100 a month rent might demand granite countertops, and they might want really nice luxury vinyl plank flooring, other areas like tile, and they don't like granite, they like maybe stone countertops, and other areas to get that much, you might be competing with a $3,000 a month luxury apartment that would have granite and vinyl plank and maybe 1000 would get you carpet and a nice floor-laminate. So you've really got to look at what does your particular market demand and not just assume that every rehab has to be a cookie-cutter that looks the same. So what I do is I look at what is the competing market? What is the complex is offering to get that top rent that they're getting today? And I kind of secret shop those complexes or go on their website and see what those units look like. So for the 73 unit, for example, our property was a 1985 vintage when we bought it in 2018. So it was a little bit older, had a lot of original oak cabinets, plain commercial grade carpet, old looking vinyl. And basically we went in and we just changed up the flooring to vinyl plank flooring in the main living areas with carpet in the bedrooms. And the reason we did carpet in the bedrooms is because it's really cold in the northeast. And so a lot of people don't like solid flooring in their bedrooms. So we kind of save a little bit of money on doing carpet in the bedrooms and vinyl plank elsewhere. And we replace some countertops and updated old cream-coloured appliances to stainless steel, or very nice white depending on the unit. And then we painted the apartments, a soft, grayish color kind of more on the gray side. But the flooring has kind of had some greys and browns that go well with everything. And really for just a couple thousand dollars in new flooring and paint and some countertops and appliances, we were able to raise the rents $200 a unit. So it was a significant increase in rents because when we bought the property, not only were the units kind of dated, but the owners had not raised rents on several other tenants for several years. And so the property right next door to ours was asking 175 to 225 more a unit with the exact same floor plans as we had. So it was a great property because we didn't have to do a whole lot in order to bump those rents and achieve that big increase in value. James: Got it. So I want to go a bit more detail on how did you choose your rehab plan because you said you did countertops, you did stainless steel and a few other things there. But it's for example, how did you choose? Why did you want to install stainless steel appliances? Can you give some education on how did you go to that process, say I want to do stainless than black appliances? Anna: Well, and again, this is we've kind of left appliances, we've kind of played with it a little bit because we had so much room to bump the rents. And we looked at what is next door offering? They're the biggest competitor. So next door had certain units where they offered a premium package with stainless steel appliances. But the standard package didn't, it had white appliances. So we said for the first couple that comes available, let's do the vinyl plank, let's paint them. And if there's a cream color, for example, one unit had a cream color stove and a white refrigerator and cream color, you know stove and we said let's keep the brand new white refrigerator. And let's just put in a white dishwasher, a white stove and see if we can get the rent that we want without going stainless. So we did that on a few. And we had a huge waiting list of people that wanted those apartments, they couldn't care less about the stainless steel and so we didn't do it. So you know initially we thought we were going to go all stainless but people, we've been achieving the rent bumps we want without having to do stainless. And so we haven't done it at this point. James: Got it. Yeah, that's how you and I think that's a good strategy to look at the base on where you didn't want to overspend versus how much rent bump you need, right, because -- Anna: Yes. Sorry, go ahead. James: No, I mean, somebody can use that extra money for something else. Anna: Exactly. And the other thing, you know, because I focused primarily in my general area, I know the market like the back of my hand. So the buildings that we bought the 73 unit and the subsequent 31 unit that we just brought too, they're basically my direct competition. So I know what tenants are looking for, I'm already offering it in my town. And basically within a 30-mile radius, we know this is what the market demands, this is how much room we can get for it. And so while people think, oh, I need to do all these fancy bells and whistles, you really just need to look at what your competition is doing it over, improve it to the level that you're going to get the top rent, but don't over-improve it to the point here that you're spending needless cap backs, that aren't going to get you that much of an incremental rent bump. James: Got it, sounds really awesome man. Let's go back to the slightly more personal side. Is there a proud moment in your real estate career that you are really, really proud of, one moment? Anna: One moment, I think, on my 73 unit, sitting down with my JV partner and his partner that he had partnered with stuff, and really being able to convince him that this was an amazing asset to invest in. And he agreed to fund my first large syndication deal. So I was just really proud that I was able to build up the financial knowledge and build up the confidence and the track record from what I had done on a smaller scale that investors would trust me to take their investment and really manage an asset well for them. James: That's where you broke out from the four units to more than 70 units, which is a big achievement, I guess, right? Anna: Yes. And I think that and the day that I retired, when I was able to retire from a job where I worked with accredited investors to be able to say, you know what, I'm retiring, I've replaced my income, I've more than doubled it, I'm now an accredited investor. And I don't ever have to work for someone else, again, I think is probably one of the best moments of my life. James: Yes, that's really important. Can you name like three or five advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk along your path? Anna: Sure, I'd say educate yourself as much as you can, you know, listen to these great podcasts and just learn from people that have already done it because you learn the things not to do and you learn that the good habits to do to kind of make yourself an excellent investor. So really commit to your education, podcast, read some books and attend some local investor meetup groups so that you can align yourself with other investors. So one is education. One is networking and alignment. And you'll get some continual growth and continue education just from learning from people that are in your network that are already doing what you want to do. I would say also start really looking at yourself and what your goals really are. So like you said early in the podcast, many people think they want to be a real estate investor. But when they discover how hard it is to do so, they kind of back off and maybe flounder for a while. And all of us can do that if we really don't know why we're doing something. So look at yourself, ask yourself what you really want in life. And why do you think real estate can get you there and then back into how much time and money am I willing to commit to my real estate investing venture. And if you don't have a lot of time, you've got to commit yourself to find money or finding other people's money or working with other people. And if you have a lot of time and not money or I think vice versa, then you need to really be willing to put in that time. And so look at your why; look at your time and your money and start figuring out how best to utilize every moment of time that you have, every moment of cash you have and other people's time and money so that you can start to scale as quickly as possible. James: Awesome, awesome. So Anna, why don't you tell our listeners how to get hold of you? Anna: Sure. So I'm on Facebook as Anna ReiMom Kelley. And I have a Facebook group called Creating Real Estate Wealth that lasts with Anna ReiMom, where we talk about real estate and really creating wealth and kind of the good, bad and the ugly of all the different asset classes. And you can email me at info@reimom.com. James: Well, Anna, thanks for coming into the show and providing tons of value. Anna, you gave a lot of very good perspective from how you juggle your role between being a mom and being a wife and trying to grow the business and I think our listeners would absolutely get tons of value out of this. And as I say there's no reason not to be successful in anything that you do and real estate is just a tool. You can be successful in anything but you can be successful if you really put your heart into it. If you really, really want it you will be successful. I mean, if you give reasons, there are tons of reasons you can give not to do something. Anna: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me, James. It's been my pleasure. James: Thank you, Anna, bye. Anna: Bye.

James: Hi listeners, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. This is James Kandasamy and Achieve Wealth Podcast focuses on Commercial Real Estate Operators who are killing it in all kind of commercial real estate asset classes. Today, I have Kyle Mitchell. Kyle is from California who has bought his first deal of 42 units in the market of Tucson, Arizona and he's going to be sharing his experience on coming to that first deal. Kyle is also a co-host of his weekly real estate podcast, which is Passive Income True Multifamily Real Estate.  Hey, Kyle, welcome to the show. Kyle: Hey James, how you doing? I'm happy to be on and thanks for inviting me.  James: Oh, it's an honor to see someone, you know starting to buy in this market, in this red hot market right now where it's so competitive; even though it's still the best time to buy just because of the climate of buying the deals. The interest rate is really good and there's a lot of capital looking for a place to park their money and make money as well but the biggest problem is finding the right deal. So tell me about your journey. I mean, when did you start looking for deals? I mean, when did you start even thinking about investing in real estate? Kyle: Yeah. So I've been investing in real estate since 2013 and how I got started was even in high school, I invested a little bit of money in the stock market. I had a couple of thousand dollars invested in the stock market and I lost it in six months and it was nothing that I could do about it. And I just learned quickly that I wanted more control over my investments and I just started looking online and listening to some podcasts, reading some books. Like most people, Rich Dad Poor Dad was one of the books that changed my life and I just knew I want to get into real estate. So I bought my first single-family home in Long Beach, California, southern California and started building up a small portfolio of single-family homes across the United States. And from there, I learned quickly that I couldn't scale as fast as I wanted to single-family homes, and I wanted real estate to be my vehicle to provide myself and my family with financial freedom. And so I started looking at some other asset classes and that's when I found multifamily. James: I got it. Got it. Got it. You just reminded me of something very interesting in my life when I went into real estate. I mean, the first time I read Robert Kiyosaki's book, maybe like 10 15 years ago when I was busy working and I never understood the book. I'm not sure, I know it changed a lot of people's lives when they read it. I mean, I recently read it again and now, it all makes sense. In the beginning, it didn't make sense. I say, what is this guy talking about? Because we are so busy on a W-2 job and especially me, I can never understand what is it he's trying to talk about? So what was the aha moment when you read that book, I mean, what is that?  Kyle: Yeah, to be honest. I did read that book and I reread it several times. The one that really changed my thinking was his Cash Flow Quadrant Book if I'm being honest but he really teaches you how to understand how your time works for you, basically. And so, being a business owner and an entrepreneur, you can have other people working for you while you make money. Otherwise, you're trading your time for money, being an independent contractor or a small business owner or W-2 employee. And so that was the biggest mindset shift to me is really purchasing assets not liabilities that cash flow while you sleep and having other people work on them for you. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, there may be people who are in W-2 job who have read his book and never get it and I was one of them. Because I think when you're working 9 to 5, W-2 job you're busy and suddenly when you get this knowledge about, hey, you can do business, you can do investment, it's like completely out of your arena right. I read a few pages and I gave up on it because it just doesn't align to me.  So for the people who are in W-2 job just be aware, sometimes it may not align with you because you are busy working in your own job, but I think when you mingle with people in real estate or with the business people you get it but if you are just working in your table to job, you may not get it. Just to be aware, you have to change your network to really make a shift in your life.  So tell us about how did you choose to be an operator? Because you bought this 42 units recently and I remember talking to you like one year ago when I meet you in California or maybe six months ago when we met up there in Long Beach and you were like, I want to get into the game. I know multifamily is really good and you started your own meetup and everybody's excited. And you said, okay, I want to get started with the capital raising and we had that discussion about being an operator and what's your background.  Tell me about your background and how did you choose to become an operator?  Kyle: Yeah, so my background is being an operator and that's why I'm an operator now, but my background was in the golf business and I was a general manager and a regional manager for a golf management company for about 15 years. So what I did was manage people, manage the business, manage the P&Ls, drive revenues, control expenses, hire/fire, manage people. So my whole entire background is really in operations and Logistics in business. And so at the time when we were talking, I was really struggling because I knew when I first started our company that I wanted to be an operator. However, it's a hot market. It's very tough to find deals and I was kind of like that Facebook frenzy, the fear of missing out, you want to get in the game. And so I was struggling because I was presented with some deals to raise capital on and I knew these people and they were good operators and it was a really good opportunity for me to jump on board. I decided not to jump on board, not because I didn't believe in the operator or the deal but really because I wanted to stick to my values and who I believe I am and then also my strengths and my strengths are really as an operator. And so we passed on those and just kind of kept grinding and I knew we would eventually get to the point where we did get a property and we can operate it on our own and that's kind of where we are today. James: So were you able to see someone else whose an operator and you can align with it or how did you know that being an operator is what you want to do? Kyle: It's because of my background. It's just something that I'm naturally kind of transferring over from the golf business to here. I think a lot of people here, okay, you're in the golf business; that's completely different than real estate and that may be the case. But we're doing the same things in the golf business that we're doing in real estate. We are driving our revenues, we're controlling our expenses, we're making sure that our employees or our third-party property management company are doing the job that they need to do to operate the property. So it was an easy transition really for me and it's just something I've been doing for so long that I really enjoy it. I'm not a big sales guy. I mean, we do find our own deals and do all that kind of stuff too but as far as raising capital, it wasn't something that I was really in love with doing. And really with an operator, it's the stuff that I love doing; diving into the P&Ls, working out the business plan, working together with the third-party property management company to make sure that we are doing the right things to get to the numbers so our investors make their returns.  James: Yeah, I mean, with so much Capital nowadays looking for a place to park their money and make money. So sometimes it easier to start with being a capital raiser or being a partner who's bringing a chunk of capital. But for me, it's always the operator whose at the top of the food chain. They make the most money, they control the whole deal, they are the backbone of the business. This person who's the operator is so important because they know the detail of the business. They know how did they come up with the per forma of rent increase? How did they underwrite the deal? Which comps did they go and shop? And when some things don't go right, the operator has to bring back the plane to the flight path again and they are the one who can control all that.  Whereas if you're in any other role it's very hard for you to do that. And I think it's important that the investors need to know who are the operators because the operators are the backbone of the deal. I think that's a very key fact. So coming back to the deal that you did, how did you choose to do 42 units and not 10 units or 100 units?  Kyle: Yeah. So I think in a perfect world, we would have probably started with something a little bit larger, but I think you also have to know your limits as an operator and as a money raiser. And so, let's just say we were going to go after a 10 million-dollar deal, that's 120 units, you can back into the number that you're going to need to be able to close on. So you need 3 million dollars for the down payment, another let's just say million for the capex so you're at 4 million. So does your net worth and liquidity get to what you need to close on the loan? Can you raise 4 million?  And so all those things we had tracked and we felt that this 42 unit at the price point that it was that we could raise enough money, we have the net worth to put in to take it down and it's a good size property to have our first deal. James:  So how did you align your team to be ready to take on that 42 units? I'm trying to figure out how did you come up with that 3 million-dollar limit. So you must have either your net worth or someone who acted as a key principle as a KP.  Kyle: Yeah, so this is an interesting story, actually. Originally, we were going with the Freddie Mac loan and the team was my fiance and I, who is my business partner, and then our parents were going to sign on the loan as KPs to bring on the net worth piece and liquidity. And halfway through we were, I wouldn't say we're struggling with the capital raised but we were not feeling as comfortable as we should have. We had to raise about a million dollars on this deal and about three weeks in, we're about halfway there. And so the plan was to bring in another partner to help with asset management and raise Capital if we were not able to get there and use our extension. Well at that point, our mortgage broker said, hey, Kyle, it's too late to bring on a GP. We've already submitted your loan application to Freddie Mac. We're not adding any more GPS. So then, we were stuck between a rock and a hard place, to be honest, because it was either continue to raise what we're doing the 506B, so it's not like we can meet new people; our network is our network at that time. And so we would really have to grind it out and convince some of the people that weren't on board to come onboard or come up with our own capital or switch over and try to find another lender. And the reason why we were in that position is I fully believe that you need to raise a hundred percent of your capital or else you just can't execute on your business plan.  If your business plan is to raise a million dollars and you only raise 700,000, you're $300,000 short on executing on your business plan. And that's very crucial and we are not the type of investors that utilize the cash flow from our properties to put back into the capex. We feel like that could really hurt you. If the revenues go down or for some reason you have a big expense, you don't have cash flow that month, now all of a sudden you can't put money back into the property and your business plan suffers. So we always raise the capital upfront for the capital improvements so that we can execute them, whether our incomes are up or down. So we decide to switch; 29 days left to close after our extension, we switch from Freddy to Fanny and a new lender and it was a pretty stressful time. But so we brought on a KP to sign on it and that KP we had known for about 10 months. We've been building a relationship with them and wanted to do other deals. We looked at several other deals together and we met through our meet up. And there was one other partner that came on board that helped with asset management and we raised about 900,000 ourselves and this other person came in and raised 100,000 to close. And we literally record about an hour before we were supposed to close. James: Got it. Got it. That's very interesting. So how did you align passive investors before your first deal?  Kyle: Yeah, so we had been building our investor list for over a year before we got this deal. And so it was something that we had planned all along. And the reason why we really hadn't done a deal up until that point, we wanted to make sure that we felt comfortable with the amount of money that we could raise so we did several things. We obviously went to networking events. We started our own meetup and we also told all our friends and family what we were doing and through that, through our monthly newsletter, we had an email drip campaign setup or it's 20 months of emails just educating them on who we are, what we do, why we do it and it's really about adding value to other people and educating them about what you do and making them comfortable with what you do. So after about a year, we built up that list and it's several hundred people up at this point and we felt comfortable to where we could raise the money.  James: So which channel was the most effective? I think you did some kind of drip campaign through your emails and you did a meet-up and you also tell everybody and is there anything that I missed out of and can you explain which one was the most effective in getting the passive investors because you are new. I mean you're completely new.  Kyle: Yeah, I would say it was 50/50 between friends and family who have known us for a while. And then the meetup. I would definitely say the meetup group was the strongest one. Because at the meetup, on a monthly basis, we had been doing it for 12 months at that time, you're seeing people face-to-face for 12 months and you're becoming friends with these people and very close to them and getting to know them on a personal level. I mean really building that strong relationship with them. So I think that was the strongest for sure.  We do have a podcast as well, but that didn't start until March of this year so that was not something where it was kind of on board quite yet.  James: Okay. So today, let's say, you found the deal you underwrite it, it works well; so how did you communicate that to the people in your list? And so how did you convince them to invest with you?  Kyle: Yeah, so it started with an email but it also took a ton of phone calls. I mean, I think it's all on the follow-up when you're raising money and you can't just call someone, after seeing him, six months later and say hey, I've got a deal, do you want to put in 50,000 on this deal? It's really about building that relationship. So, every month I try and reach out to our investors and whether it's through email or text or phone call, I try and touch them in some way on top of our monthly communication with them, through our drip campaign and database emails. But it was really about talking to them, meeting them in person for coffee one by one and telling about the opportunity that we have. James: So apart from the 50% of investors, which came from your friends and family. I mean, they're friends and family and they don't mind giving you some money. So the people who are complete strangers and you have build up that relationship, so what do you think is the biggest factor that they trust you with their money? Kyle: The value that we've added to them. If they want to hop on a phone call with me and just ask me for advice on where they're going with their real estate career, we would do free calls. I think also the meetup, the podcast, monthly emails; it's just everything that we provide for them. We also have a free online passive Investors Guide that they can read that's about 30 40 pages that help to educate them. And I think the other thing was they just saw the passion in us.  I mean, Lita - who's my wife now, fiance back then - we would drive to Tucson at 2:00 in the morning because we both had full-time jobs at that time and I've since left but she still had one and she only gets one day off a week. So on her day off, we would leave at 2 in the morning, 2:30 in the morning, get to Tucson around 9:00 or 10:00 a.m, tour properties, meet with investors, brokers for about 8 hours and then drive back and get back the next day at like 1:00 or 2:00 a.m. So just telling the story about what we're doing and how hard we're working, I think people saw it in us that this was something we were very serious about, we didn't take lightly and we operate our company as a business, you know, this is a serious business and we're an investment firm and we take it seriously. We don't do this part-time and we don't do this kind of on the side, which you can certainly do and I know several successful investors who do that, but they also take it very seriously like a business and I think that's a very important thing. Kyle: Yeah, certainly but I would say that I don't think you can learn everything from a mentor until you actually go through it. I think mentorship is needed and you definitely should have one so you can limit your mistakes, but you just don't know what you don't know and really until you go through that process, kind of like what I went through with the lending experience. It's really difficult to get that through a mentorship program, sometimes, at a certain point, you just gotta jump in there and do it.  James: Yeah. Yeah. I know some people go for boot camp after boot camp, mentor after mentor and never get started. So sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and take a chance on a deal that at least makes sense. So other than the financing issues that you mentioned in the beginning, throughout the closing process, was there any big aha moment that you see throughout the process with the first deal?  Kyle: Yeah, I think we would have just lined up our partners beforehand instead of trying to do it all on our own. We could have gotten it done on our own but it was just a very stressful thing and it could have really put our investors' money at risk, which is something that you just don't want to do. So I think lining up your team upfront. But I think from like an operations standpoint, I think where my experience helped is that - and during the close, you still need to make sure the property is operating on a positive note. If it starts to go back, your proceeds from the lenders are going to get cut and a lot of other things; your returns are not going to look as good.  So you need to stay on the property management company that's currently managing it, whether you're going to switch over or not. You're going to have to manage the broker to make sure they're doing everything they can to make sure that they're renting up, they're still putting renovations in there and they're managing it at the level that you want it to be managed when you take over. James: Yeah, absolutely. So that's what you want to make sure that everybody does that. And what about any issues in the money race, were there any surprises at the end?  Kyle: No, actually there wasn't. I mean, we raised all the funds prior to close, which was fantastic. I would say that raising money, you really get a peek behind the curtains of people's lives; whether they're closing on a house and need to show liquidity and can invest or they're out of town for a while or they're having a baby so they can invest. So all I would say is that if you plan on raising a million dollars, you should probably have 2 million dollars of commitments. Just because someone says, "Yes, I'll invest" doesn't mean they will. And something can be going on in their life where, yeah, they want to commit and invest but it's just not the right timing. So raising money, it's a huge timing thing.  You're raising money for 30 to 45 days and so, it's not a big window and there are things going on in other people's lives that may stop them from being able to commit to that one deal.  James: Got it. Got it. So Kyle, I mean you are a new person, bought your first deal. What was your strategy to find that first deal? Brokers, off-market or what did you do? Kyle: Yeah, it was really networking and leveraging the brokers as much as I can but it was driving out to the markets and it's something that we still do to this day. We're in the market every single week because we believe in those strong relationships and meeting people face-to-face and showing them that we're serious. I think a lot of out-of-state investors call brokers on a regular basis, but hardly ever see them face to face. I found it very beneficial to have lunches and dinners and coffees and touring the properties with the brokers and having face-to-face because you get to learn who they are and even outside of the business aspect, you get to know them as a person, as an individual, so that's been really beneficial to us. So the way we found the 42 unit; we were in town, in Tucson and one of the brokers called me and said, hey Kyle, we just got the keys to this property. Would you like to walk it with us? I haven't seen in any of the units and so we walked it and so we were the first ones to see it and it was three weeks before it was on market. And by the time they brought it to market, we had done all of our due diligence. We had a head start on everyone and we were able to take it down.  James: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean usually brokers, especially on a much larger deal, they are very, very skeptical or they do not want to deal with a lot of new people. Because there's a lot of people looking at the much larger deal and you went to 40 something unit, which a lot of big guys don't look at it, which I think is absolutely a good strategy for a person to start. I know a lot of people out there telling just go and buy above 100 units because there's so much capital you can syndicate but it's also harder to get started because there are a lot of people looking at above 100 units. So I started with 45 units and I really learned a lot. So do you think you are learning a lot and how many months already right now? Kyle: It's been two months since we've closed and yeah, absolutely, I am learning a lot on the whole process from A to Z. Now we're in my comfort zone, where I'm operating the property, managing the property manager. So I'm still learning on how the property management company kind of does things but I really do feel like I'm in my comfort zone right now. James: Awesome. Yeah, I mean you really learn a lot when you buy deals on your own and you buy smaller properties because you're going to be learning everything. But the thing is, the knowledge that I got from 45 units and the knowledge that you're getting in the 42 units is going to take you to above 1000 units pretty easily because you are doing it yourself. So sometimes when you buy a too big of a deal, there are too many GPs in the GP shape and you give it to a third party, you're not there, you're not being an active asset manager you may skip a lot of knowledge.           So do you have a property manager right now for 42 units or how is that being worked out? Kyle: We do and I think we got lucky on this. We have a property management company that is the biggest Property Management Company in Phoenix, and they also have a lot of properties in Tucson. It just so happens that most of their owners have sold their properties in Tucson so now they're trying to build back their portfolio, so I caught them on a really good time. They know I want to scale in those two markets and so they typically do not manage properties under 100 units and we were able to convince them to manage this property. So we don't have full-time staff, but we have a part-time leasing agent and a part-time maintenance person, but we're able to piggyback off of another property so that they're both full-time employees.  And so that's worked out really good and having a third party property management company that's as large as they are were able to leverage. They have an in-house GC team. We can leverage all their relationships. They have an in-house marketing team. So there's not a lot of 42 units that have their own Facebook page, their own website and all that kind of stuff and this third party property management company does that for us. James: Awesome. That's very interesting because I know 42 units are going to be hard to have. I think you probably can have like one person but you are managing with the leasing agent and part-time maintenance so that's awesome. And they are sharing it with other properties, which is really good. And so why did you choose Tucson?   Kyle: You know, first we were looking into Phoenix and Phoenix is a really hot market right now and we love everything about it. It's just very competitive. So a lot of the brokers that we were talking to said Kyle what you're looking for value-add, B to C class assets take a look at Tucson. And at that point, this was a year and a half ago or just over a year ago, we weren't really sold on it because we didn't know much about it. So what we did is we started going out there every week and start learning the market; the rent growth, the population growth. All those metrics are very good in Tucson and they follow the Phoenix market. So the more time we spend out there, the more we started to like it.           Now, I would say about Tucson is you have to be careful where you buy. It's definitely a pocketed area, but it's got job diversity just like Phoenix does and that's why we like both of those markets. The proximity of them is another good point for us. I'm out in the markets every week and so I can either drive or fly but be there pretty quickly. Whereas if I was investing in Florida, it would be difficult for me to make it out there on a weekly basis and dealing with the time changes and things like that.  James: Got it. And what is the value-add that you see in this deal? Kyle: Well, there's a lot of value-adds on it. The previous owner was a very hands-off owner. And the first time we saw the property, it was pretty evident there's just not a lot of money being put back into the property. The sign on the front on the corner had a phone number that was disconnected. They did not have any online presence so I'm actually not even sure how they were leasing up the units so that was an opportunity right there. And we've already been able to get the performer rents prior to any renovation starting just by having a phone number that works, having someone that responds. You know, the property management company that they had in there was a single-family home provider so any type of service call, they're getting charged 35 40 dollars an hour, even if it's to open the door for someone and so there's a lot of repair and maintenance money in there that is being wasted. But overall, it's just being mismanaged from an income standpoint and an expense standpoint.  James: Got it. Got it. So, I want to go back for people who are newbies who want to get started in this business, is there any advice that you want to give to newbies that you want to emphasize right now? Kyle: Yeah, I've said this a lot lately and it's, just get out of your comfort zone. It's something that is very difficult at times but once you start doing it, you really start to get comfortable with being uncomfortable and that's been the biggest thing for us. I would say 15 months ago, I would not be able to speak on this podcast. I could not speak in front of a group of people at a meetup, I was just terrified. And I just decided to jump right in. So we've got two meetups now. I've got a podcast and I quit my job to pursue this full time. We've just closed on our first property and now I'm on other people's podcast so I would just say get out of your comfort zone. I try and do something three or four times a year now that gets me out of my comfort zone because as you get out of your comfort zone, you grow as a person, you grow as a business owner and you will elevate your game that much faster. James: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So why do you want to do this for the rest of your life, why? Kyle:  It's building generational wealth. Multifamily is not 'get rich quick' by any means but it's definitely getting rich over a long period of time and you can build generational wealth, which is what I'm focused on and really want to provide my family with that opportunity. But at the same time, we're helping other people build generational wealth and that's what I love the most. We can add value into other people's lives and we can help create passive income for other people. A lot of people who we talked to don't know about multifamily or passive investing. They only know the stock market and so we really want to help educate people and say, hey, look, there's another way, there's a better way and there's a better way to diversify your portfolio as well. So we love helping other people build generational wealth while we do the same thing. James: Awesome. Awesome. I know you have been on a few other podcasts, is there anything that you think that you have not shared in any of the podcast that you want to share to our listeners? Kyle: Yeah. Actually, aligning your interest with your business partners. So my business partner is my fiance and I think that a lot of people ask us how do you work with your significant other and I don't think it's for everybody but the one thing that has worked really well for us is making sure that we wrote down our goals and aligned our interest before we started anything to make sure that we're on the same page. So even through ups and downs, we always remember and look back to that and say okay, these are our goals. So even if it's not your fiance or significant other, if it's your business partner, you've got to make sure that your goals are aligned before. Otherwise, once you're doing deals, it's just too late to start having those kinds of conversations. So definitely have the conversations upfront.  And while you're building your team, make sure that you take the time to get on the same page because a lot of people just want to get going now and if you want to get going now and you get the wrong business partner, it's going to come crumbling down in the future. And so, take more time upfront to set up your teams and align yourself with the right people so that you can streamline your business and really be off and going on the right foot. James: Awesome. Awesome. Where and how our listeners can find you?  Kyle: Yeah, sure. We've got our podcast that you mention, which is Passive Income Through Multifamily Real Estate. Our website is www.limitless-estates.com, and you can shoot me an email at Kmitchell@limitless - estates.com.  James: Awesome, Kyle. So thanks for coming over to this podcast. And for the audience, just to announce our launch of our own mentoring program. It's called multifamily A to Z Mentoring Program: Learn how to be an Operator.  I'm not sure, is there any program out there that teaches any newbies or anybody who want to get started in this business and how to be an operator and we want to cover A to Z because we do A to Z. So Property Management, Asset Management, raising money and how to build a business by itself. So we have launched that, if you are interested, let me know. Send me a mail James@achieveinvestmentgroup.com. I think we are done. Thank you very much, Kyle, for coming on board and you add tons of value to our listeners. Thank you.  Kyle: Thanks, James. I had a blast.  

James:  Hey, audience welcome today to Achieve Wealth Podcast. I'm James Kandasamy. And we're going to be talking to Jason Pero from Pennsylvania. Jason owns almost around 900 units. But the fun part is, he has like over 600 units on his own and a lot of it is duplexes, quads and small multi-families and he recently started syndicating around 300 units. So, hey, Jason, welcome to the show. Jason:  Hey, thanks for having me, James. I'm glad to be here. James:  Awesome. Thanks for coming in to the show. I'm always impressed with people who have build-up that many unit count; 600 units on your own without syndication so you're basically an independent rental owner, that we call it. And I just want to go deeper into that. Can you briefly describe how did you accumulate the 600 units and how many years did it take? Jason:  Sure. So my wife and I started in 2001. You know, even before we were married, a few years out of college and we bought our first duplex and we did it the old fashioned way. We saved, we both work, we saved one person's salary and save that towards our down payments. And we would go with just traditional bank financing, 15-year mortgages, 75% loan to value and we just went really slow and steady early on. So, in 2001, it was a two unit, in 2002 was another two unit and a four unit and then the next year, it was a four unit that actually -- James:  Hold on, I need to clarify something. So did you come out from college and start doing this? Jason:  Yes, so I graduated in 1999. James:  Okay. Jason:  And so started working, I didn't know a whole lot about money growing up and started making a little bit of money out of college. And I realized I wanted to, at that time, I just wanted to be build wealth and be millionaire. James:  Wow. Jason:  And all that kind of stuff. In one of my internships, I learned about rental properties and that seems like all the wealthy people had their money in real estate.   James:  Okay. Jason:  So I started doing all my research and reading books and try to talk to different people that own real estate. And so we were able to do that in 2001 and just kind of went slow and steady. And so my wife worked as a pharmaceutical sales representative, I did that for a few years as well. And then got into medical device sales. And so each year, we buy a few rental properties and along the way, some sort of like career-changing deal with come along. 2005, we build up to 23 units and then all of a sudden, I met a guy that had 56 units for sale that he was willing to hold the paper on, in owner finance and so that took us from 23 to 79 overnight. And then we just kind of kept the same process; saving our money, buying a property, couple properties a year and then 2008 hit and there was a ton of property that was getting foreclosed on. So I was buying up singles and doubles and triples as fast as I could rehabbing them, refinancing them, getting my money back and repeating the process. So we did a lot of that from like 2008 through 2012 when I left my day job. So at that time, we had about 290 units and again, we were living like way below our means, reinvesting everything back into the business. So we just put a ton of our own sweat and money into the properties in those early years. And we just kept buying over the last several years so it's been seven years since I left my day job. And when I was working, day job for a living, I'd always said I was a little bit nervous to take on private money or deal with investors. Because maybe I was afraid but I felt like from a mental and emotional standpoint, I wanted to be there for that investor, I didn't want anything to go wrong. And I knew if I was a travelling salesperson and I'm working three hours away, God forbid something goes wrong, I don't want to like I didn't want anything to happen to that investor's money. But once I quit the day job, sort of like on my own in my own portfolio every day, started networking with and meeting private lenders, private investors and did a bunch of that over a period of years. So more properties that were owner finance, more of these, like hard money loans from loan sharks and the guys that want to charge you 10%, 12%, 18%. But we're able to get into more and more properties like that. And all the while we kind of heard about syndication, knew what it was, didn't really have the confidence, I think or just was missing like one piece of the puzzle. And honestly, when you and I met at Rod Cleaves’ house little over a year and a half ago, something in that weekend just click and said no, I know how to do this, this is easy. James:  Easier than buying -- Jason: Yes, yes. And then from that point on, like the first syndication we did, found a great deal that we're bringing investors in on, then found another that and now we have another thing in the pipeline. So just everything kind of builds on itself, you know, have this natural progression. So sorry, that was a really long answer. James:  No, I mean, I really enjoyed but I want to go a bit back to the beginning when you started because a lot of fresh out of school or a lot of graduates or anybody coming up from school, I'm just trying to see how they can get the similar mindset. How can they walk that steps that you took? Because you said you graduate in 1999 and 2001, you started buying and you said your hunch for real estate, you got it during your internship. But was there like any mentor to tell you to buy or you think that okay, I can do this? And what was that ah-ah moment that pushed you out of your comfort zone to buy your first house? Jason:  So I'll back up; so when I was in college, I did a number of internships with financial planning companies. My original career, I thought I was going to be a financial planner. James:  Okay. Jason:  I never did that but I did a few internships and during one of them, the financial planners had me going through clients files and setting up appointments to meet with them. And one of the things, I was sitting there learning and I'm like, oh my gosh, how does  like a dual-income family, like a doctor and a lawyer only has a network of you know, they're making a half-million dollars a year, but their net worth is like $50,000. And then I'd see another file that these two school teachers may be making a combined income of 75,000 or 80,000 a year, had a net worth of like 5 million. James:  Wow. Jason:  And as well, they want a bunch of rental properties and I'm like, what's that? And so somebody kind of gave me, you know, hey, this is how, you know, well, a lot of wealthy people have money in real estate. So I got thinking and I really wanted to go down that path like becoming a millionaire. And how do I do that, I read 'Rich Dad Poor Dad', read the 'Millionaire Next Door'. So it was the 'Millionaire Next Door' talks about living below your means and that most millionaires don't drive Lamborghinis but they drive a nice used Honda or Toyota and things like that. So it was reading and learning some of these mindset things. And the first job out of college, I was a kind of entry-level sales job. But there was a guy there that had a few rental properties. And I'm like, man, this seems really interesting, what do you do, how do you do? And I started asking him questions and he was telling me to read the same books that I just read. And kind of the pieces was coming together and like, well, if I want to be a millionaire, I have to make my money work for me. And so I was putting money in my 401k and starting IRAs, but I also saved every available penny I could. So then, I was talking around family friends, and just maybe kind of not real mentors, but people that were maybe my parents' age that I knew that they knew, and I said, hey, does anybody know about rental property? And turns out that one of their friends or people they were acquainted with, owned rental property. And they said, hey, we might have a property for sale. Hey, come take a look at it. And it was like a $32,000 duplex. And I mean, not a lot to speak of, but I'd saved up about $5,000. And there was enough for like at the time to have like, first-time homebuyer loan program. So I had enough money for a down payment, got a decent loan on it. So I only had to put like, 10% down in closing costs, and all that kind of stuff. But got into it and the rents at that time were like for 2 bedroom apartments, they were $375 a month and I raise the rents to 500. James:  Got it. Jason:  And all of a sudden, I'm making money and I said, wow! It paid my student loans. I need to buy another one so I can pay for my car payment, and I just sort of thinking about it that those terms. And so like, they were a mentor in a sense, the guys that sold me my first series of properties, because I mean, they were typical, like they had a W2 job, you know, retired from that after 40 years and gold watch kind of thing, but at their peak, they maybe had 25 or 30 rental units and they never saw real estate as a full time endeavor. But they saw it's a great way to build extra wealth for retirement. And so I kind of remember it vividly, I bought several properties from these guys. And I met this guy, the first formal mentor I had in the business in 2005. And I was doing my walkthrough of this property with the guys that sold me a few handfuls of my first units. We were on top of a roof, you know, looking at this roof on the property I was looking to buy. And I asked him, hey, I met this really interesting guy by the name of Richard and he has 130 rentals. It's all he does. What do you think about like real estate as a full time thing? And he said, man, I don't know, I don't know how anybody can do this full time. And he just really pooh-poohed the idea. But then I met and went with this guy, Richard, he goes by the name Dick. But I met with Dick and I was like, really impressed with this guy. He shows me all of his rental properties and says, hey, you give me 10% down and I'll hold the paper. And he seemed like he got a really good job at General Electric. You know, nice enough guy but he had this little empire of like properties. I thought that was the coolest thing in the world. And he was making it at the time, what I thought was a lot of money and he was doing a lot of good things. And he had enough money to get back to charity and he seems to travel and do, like, live life that he wanted to live. And he worked hard, but he didn't have to work for the man, he was doing his own thing. And so, after we close on that 56 unit deal, he really became that mentor to me. And it always stuck with me that even though we've sort of grown apart and we don't see each other nearly as much as I'd like to these days, I've sort of taken what he's done for me and I tried to do that with a lot of younger investors. And I just was telling somebody this a week or two ago that I feel like our industry is, I mean, certainly there are people that don't want to help but I would say more often than not, there are people more than willing to show others the path and say, hey, look, I think I can help you out. I mean, don't want anybody to take too much of your time and make it a full-time job to mentor somebody but I think, as a group, most of us real estate entrepreneurs [inaudible12:47] And just like to, it kind of, you know, as some people showed you the way of coming into it, you can help these younger guys and gals out too. So, I think, for your younger audience members, like, the key is maybe just to try and meet people that have been doing it, become friends with them, ask them questions and their knowledge, we all like to talk about our successes and our failures and all that stuff. And that's it, you know, you buy a coffee or a beer or lunch or something like that and you can soak it up. James:  Absolutely. Yes, yes. Yes, I mean, that's just a very impressive build-up of your rental portfolio. And I'm just trying to get that the time where you will push over the cliff. So I mean, push out the cliff to be successful. I mean, you can correct me, you had a lot of desire to become a millionaire, right after school and you saw that you have a lot of desire and you went and seek out a lot of information from different people. I think it's some mindset that you really want to do it, has pushed you towards buying all this rental, taking all that information, and really taking action, which I think is very impressive. And a lot of college dropout, not college graduates, or any graduate, high school graduate, anybody who have finished their studies, they can do exactly what you're doing.  But they have to have that desire to come to your level, to be a millionaire. Go and seek that information, take the risk, right? I think that is what you have done very well up to now. And you're right, usually, real estate entrepreneurs usually share a lot of information, and it's just whether whoever receiving the information is going to go and take action or not; that's very important. So, that's very, very interesting. And the 900 units that you have, a lot of it is duplexes, quad and out of the 600 units that you own on your own, I think 300 is syndicated so how many are duplexes, quads? And how many units are like small multifamily? Do you have that number? Jason:  Yes. So out of that 600, there's about 120 that I've ended up, well, I still technically own but I'm holding the paper, I've sold them on land contract. And so yes, so about 120 to 150, that smaller, single-family duplex quad. And I've tried to hold on to the things that say 8 units or above and -- James:   Got it. And I think for every big deal we do, I sort of have this internal, like a mental rule that trying to evolve the portfolio. And so, with a lot of that smaller stuff it's starting to spin off the smaller properties, whether it's selling it to and holding the financing to up and coming real estate investor or just selling on the open market and divesting of it.  I think every time you pick up a 205 unit, or 100 units that becomes your focus. And then, you don't want to think the quality of service or the quality of that duplex or quad to suffering, you just you kind of graduate and move on into newer things. And so, at some point, in all of our careers a 10 unit, or 20 unit, and it seemed to be the biggest thing in the world. But ultimately, when you close bigger projects, that becomes, you know, -- James:  So small, right? Jason:  Yes. So I think it's important to evolve the portfolio. And so we have been in the process of trying to spin off the smaller properties, but in a control, smart way. So you don't want to give them away, but at the same time, I don't want to be managing those same things 10 or 20 years from now either. James:  Yes, yes. So right now you have moved from duplexes, quad to smaller multi-families, you know, 50 something units and you said you hold a note for 100 something and now you've moved to like 200 units syndication, 100 units syndication, right? So why did you move from owning on your own to a syndication model? Jason:  So it was interesting. I knew at some point, if real estate is all that I did, I'd run out of my own available money. We have to have money to live on and reinvest into the business. But in order to take down, say, a 4 million or 10 million dollars project, it took me a while to wrap my head around that. I used to think that, okay, I'll refinance my portfolio and use that money to buy into a larger property. But as you see, with a lot of these larger properties, that the types that people's raise money for syndication, is the timeline, is a heck of a lot faster than what you can do a refinance. So realizing if you want to lock up 100 unit property, you know, 60 days, 90 days, I mean, these processes move fairly quickly. So, that was one thing. The other part was I became friends, with a gentleman that was my [inaudible18:03] on units we syndicated. And we really said, hey, we should buy real estate together, we could create some sort of offering and I just wasn't thinking big enough. And then, when this 86 unit came along, I said, this is perfect, the light bulb went off and said, hey, we need to raise a million and a half dollars and we'll go out and get agency financing and it just went really easy. And you can still end up having the control. So for me a little bit of it was controlled, a little bit of it was, I mean, not just from an ego standpoint, but I think we do a really great job of running and managing the property. You know, I like the idea of being the majority owner of the property. So I felt like, oh, yes, maybe I only own 15% of the deal but I'm the majority owner as a 15% owner of the deal. And then you can get at the higher-quality property; property that appreciates as the economy goes, you know, we can be much more manipulated by cap rates, and just has a much higher upside. And I guess what I like to say predictability. So the problem I found with the duplexes, and the quads was that, sure, I can make the same amount of money every year, but it was a heck of a lot of work. And it can be really unpredictable, you could have, you know, both units in a duplex become vacant in a month and then you're 100% vacant and it's wildly unpredictable as you scale. And so I found with like the larger properties, if you run it tight, and you have good management and you pay attention to the details, you can predict what your income is going to be every month. And I just got to a point in my life where I'm like, I just want a steady paycheck out of this business. I don't want to have that level of unpredictability. And so, from a syndication standpoint, you get a distribution every quarter. As the GP, we have that piece, and it becomes something where you're within a few percentage points of what you've budgeted plan out every year. And I found that that was another ah-ha moment. So with my some of my smaller and even medium-sized multifamily properties, the 25 units and the 50 unit type of thing that I had, is that I went back and I had a 26 unit I brought in 2008. And I ran the numbers every year from 2008 and I've never made more or less than a few thousand dollars, like, for instance, the property makes $115,000 a year on average, it's never been below 112 and never been above 118.   James:  Okay. Jason:  Yes, that's a clue. And I'll look at my other properties like that, yes, they're all within a few thousand of each other. And I said, well, this is a lot better than then chasing a single-family home, that becomes vacant and sits vacant for four months because you've got to pull out the trash and your carpet and exterminate and do all those things. So it's one of those things that sort of self-realized as we went along, is you have these larger properties, if you run them well, just create that level of predictability that you want as an owner. But I would say that it's really easy to sell to somebody looking to invest passively in your deal that, okay, if we modeled this this deal correctly, then you're going to get this return on your investment, every quarter, every year that you're involved in the deal. James:  So the predictability has become very key, I guess. And the scalability because you have a lot more units and you would have budgeted for occupancy loss and having vacancies and expenses and all that in the bigger one. And you have a lot more room for error in terms of occupancy, I would say compared to a single-family and duplexes. Jason:  Right. James:  Right. Interesting. So was the experience that you gain from quads and duplexes, did it help you out when you come to syndication and run this bigger, larger properties? Jason:  100%, I mean, I think a couple of things. And I think having my own money, into the business and building it with my wife's and my own hard-earned money, you know, the wins are all yours, and the mistakes are all yours, too. And so, you know, we started out painting our own units, cutting our own grass, leasing the units ourselves. And then even for building, you know, our own employees, I mean, you know, it was us, kind of managing those employees a lot early on, and dealing with tenants, I mean, dealing with tough situations. So, if it comes down to me managing a property manager, I've got that track. Not that I know it all, I mean, I still feel like I'm learning every day but I have that, some level of experience to say, here's how we should handle the situation. Because, you know, we've seen this is or this is the type of scenario that we've dealt with. And I think, when it came down to raising money for these last couple of deals, having a track record and saying, you know what, not only have I learned how to finance properties, not only I learned how to manage properties, you know, dealing with private money, we dealt with tenants, we sort of work at all aspects of the business. I think that's just that, earning your doctorate in this business or earning your degree in this business. And I think it helps to start out small. Now, I would just say that that's not for everybody. I see some people that are wildly successful jumping into really large syndications. And I certainly would never talk down people's hopes and dreams and goals to go big. But I think that to weather the storms and deal with difficult scenarios and difficult situations, it's always good to have some level of something that you've done on your own, whether it's small and syndication don't become the only, it's not the only way to make money in this business. You know, a lot of us that syndicate, do a lot of other things. So, [inaudible24:08], people may flip, they may be a realtor that be involved in different things. So I just think that having that background and experience, you know, with smaller properties, building a team, those are all things that come in really handy, you know, as it relates to the larger -- James:  Larger one, yes. Yes, I'm a strong believer of coming, growing from small [inaudible24:38] from single-family quads, duplexes, and then growing. I mean, I know people go direct to let's start with hundred units plus a lot of gurus teaches that, because, there's so much money out there, and they said you can syndicate. But I think the problem is you mentioned right when the storm comes in, right, I mean, you may not know what happens when the vacancy drops, you may not understand the tenant profile, why certain tenant leaving rights, especially if you're giving to third party management. So you are basically a pure syndicator; you're just a guy who raises money, finds the deal and trying to run a business plan on a booming market, right? I mean, we know a lot of people have been successful, but all this, lot of people has been successful in the past nine to 10 years of expansion. So we do not know whether they are good, or the market was good so we will know once the market turns. So how much people know, what the signs of real estate? I mean, there's so much of things in real estate like contract management, understanding tenant demographics. When people move in, walking, how's the leasing experiences so much of science behind it, you wouldn't understand it if you're in a strong market, right? You'll think, oh, it's going up to 95% occupied, oh, I'm making money all capitals, compressing it, nothing on your effort. But when the cap rate is decompressed that's when they the tenants leave, or when your market starts doing very well, I mean, you have to have those skills to manage that budget, to manage that shift. And I think I think it's important to start from small, that's what I feel, I mean. Jason:  I'll give an example I had since we self manage, I mean, I'm not the one out showing units and advertising units, but I was between property managers had one guy phasing out, and he actually bought several properties for me. And so he kind of graduated into being a full-time investor and had a new guy coming on and we were about a month in between. And the first deal I syndicated it's an 86 unit property, it had 16 vacancies. And I'm like, you know, not only am I investor on the general side, I put my money in this is limited; I can't live with 16 vacancies. So I went out and I showed the units myself. I got things rented and did the hard work, none my time should be spent doing that, I don't love that. But I know how to do it from years and years of doing it early on. So I went out and I got like a dozen units rented in a month and got that down to four out of 86. And then when our new property manager started, he was able to just kind of hit the ground running. But so I think that that's like an example of why it's good to be able to have that experience. And like you mentioned contractor management. I mean, you just recently, I know you've seen how to disaster one of your properties. And if you don't know how to deal with contractors negotiate the best price and make sure they're showing up to work every day and keep things on a schedule, you know, things can go really wrong when things go sideways in business, you have to have that sort of that people management side of it from dealing with tenants to contractors and banks and all that kind of stuff.   James:  Yes, absolutely. I mean, I just came back. I mean, before this podcast, I was sitting like, almost two hours in one of my property which we are recovering, with my property manager, regional and planning out the make ready plan. And how do we do this because sometimes you can't expect them to do the whole plan, right? I mean, sometimes we have a lot more planning skills and I have to tell them from day one to do this, how many of units, have to give them each plan. So they recover very quickly. And you can't do that if you don't have the real in a single-family, or quads or duplexes construction experience, right. You can't do that, because you're going to be taking the words from the property manager or your regional right. So yeah, I think it's important that you really learn the science of real estate, especially now when the markets are good. It's hard to learn when the market is bad because things are really going wrong at that time. So that's very interesting. So how is the Pennsylvania market? Can you describe it? I mean, I never interviewed anybody from Pennsylvania and I like to understand the market and how do you underwrite the deals over there? So high level, you did all your deals in Pennsylvania, because you live there, I guess is your backyard. Jason:  By default when I started out buying singles and doubles then, we're doing it ourselves. I didn't know any other way. I'm like, why would I buy something in Cleveland, I gotta drive an hour and a half every day to Cleveland. So you know, Pennsylvania is a funny state. So we have Philadelphia on one side of the state, Pittsburgh on the other side of the state and in between, and no offence to anybody else in Pennsylvania, but it's like, it's Kentucky. I mean, it's just farms and everything else and there's not a whole lot of population but there are areas like Harrisburg, Scranton, Erie, where I live. And so there are these tertiary markets. And so, Philadelphia and Pittsburgh are like any other bigger market where cap rates are compressed and they have a ton of population, there's a ton of employment. But I'm a big fan of the tertiary markets and places like you're in Erie, Pennsylvania or York, Pennsylvania or even like Dayton, Ohio, I consider a tertiary market. Canton, Ohio, Akron, Ohio, like, you know, Rochester, New York is a secondary market, but maybe a smaller town around that, for instance. So, and my reason being that when you have areas like Denver in Nashville or Austin, Texas, that over a period of time had, you know, that population growth of a million people or more over a 10 year period, when 2008 happened, or after 911. And now there was a huge pullback in the economy and people losing jobs and unemployment goes up to 8% or 9%. Those are areas where people are losing jobs, those are areas where the rents kind of pulled back, because you all of a sudden, there's these in multifamily, you do value add after value add and rents reach it's peak, at some point when the economy turns those rents out to pull back. So the flip side is where there's a lot of time growth, like in Erie, Pennsylvania, it is slow and steady. So, in 2008, home sales, slow down, but nothing, that the values never went the other way. And we still live in an area where we have several universities, we have several hospitals, we have to the nation's largest medical school, in Erie, Pennsylvania, and so there's a lot of students, there are manufacturing jobs, there's other like medical and some technical type jobs, but just a smaller geographic area, smaller economy. Now, the downside is we never have this wild booming prices and you can't really ever bank on a lot of appreciation. But at the same token, when the economy pulls back, our rental base really isn't going to be affected. So, for instance, if I have $700 or $800 a month apartment and 20 tenants lose their jobs, well, they'll still be able to afford the rent on unemployment. Now, it maybe tough for them but it's not as though they're paying 1500 dollars a month rent. And so I look at it from a practical standpoint, that while I should be able to maintain my occupancy levels and fight through an economic downturn. And so the nice thing with the area that I kind of proved itself out in this last syndication. We had several people from out of state come in and really liked the idea that there's this level of predictability that, okay, when the market turns, we're not going to lose if you know, 100,000 jobs a year, because there are 100,000 people that live in the city of Erie, there's another 250,000 that live in the surrounding county. So our greater metro area is about 300, 000 to 350,000 people, that's still sort of a small area, and, you know, the largest employer might employed, you know, 5000 people, and there are several larger small employers like that. So the economy is set, sort of stable, you know, you go to Gary, Indiana, or places like that same thing. And so the other thing that would protect somebody on the downside is just making sure you have optimal financing locked in, though for the most recent deal, we locked into 12 years fixed as opposed to 10 years fixed. Even though the prepayment, our maintenance is up is nine and a half years, you know, we have a little bit of flexibility. So if we are in an economic downturn, you know, I saw it in 2008, saw a lot of people lose their investment. I think, locking into something that gives you that flexibility to weather a national or international economic downturn, least for a few years, not that you can totally time the market, but you have enough flexibility to when you want to exit the property. But such as Pennsylvania, these other smaller markets, I mean, I think if you're in it for the long haul, that's your strategy is like, long term cash flow, I think you can't really go wrong with these smaller areas. You know, there, there's just there are jobs, you know, I mean, and they're not the highest paying jobs throughout the growing areas, but it's a different sort of business model. We told our investors in these deals, hey, this is a 10-year hold and we may hold longer if you want to stay longer. And I think that people like that idea, as opposed to like, doing like a three-year payback or a five year refinance, like, we're just holding into a longer and I think that's it's a different strategy. But it feels to me for investors that want sort of that long term stability and predictability. James:  Yes, I mean, real estate, in general, is a long term play, right? So is Pennsylvania landlord friendly state? I'm not sure you know what it means because you only buy that, you didn't compare to the taxes or anybody else. Jason:  But you know we have friends, -- James:  Okay. Jason:  Probably the same friends around the country. And what I will say is, it's not like California, it's not like New York. James:  Okay.   Jason:  So hear these horror stories where it takes months and months to evict somebody. Pennsylvania is fair, there's actually some legislation to make it even better. But you know, speaking from a practical standpoint, if you have to evict somebody, and you follow the letter of the law, to the day, it's about 40 days. James:  Okay, it's not too bad. Jason:  And so it's not too bad. James:  Yes. Jason:  Well, it's fairly easy, especially if you're looking to terminate a lease for behavioural issues or whatever, it's not you can't get them out in 10 days, but you're not waiting three or four months to get rid of somebody. And people have if tenants appeal not to get too far in the weeds, but if they appeal an eviction, they have to put their money into an escrow file, they just don't let the tenants like dictate the policy. There are actual things in place that make sure that it's so overall, I'd say it's more landlord friendly than most. James:  Yes, I think it's almost similar to what we have in Texas, I'm sure there are more details there. But in terms of eviction, and putting money in escrow when they get evictions and all that is similar to what we have in Texas. So what about underwriting? So when you underwrite deals, multifamily deals in Pennsylvania, do our taxes go up as per the purchase price and how much percentage it grew up? How do you underwrite? Jason:  So on smaller properties, they don't. I think if you're more distressed, but let's just say places where opportunities would be occurring, those types of like C and D class neighborhoods, they wouldn't, because the city or the municipality wants people to continue to invest there. But we budget for a tax increase based on there's a common level ratio that, you know, based on the purchase price, the value of the property, we should budget for X amount of, you know X amount of dollars. James:  But how many per cent do you go up to purchase price? Is like 100% of purchase price times flat rate or is it 80, 90, 70? Jason:  Well, yes, is about 80% of the purchase price.   James: Okay, got it. Jason:  But what I would say is that you know, we've appealed that before. So, as an example, I bought an eight-unit, wasn't the big property, I paid a premium for that for the deal, I paid a little more than I would have sold for on the open market. But the seller had said, hey, look, I'm going to sell to this price, they held the paper at 25 years fixed rate at 4%, no balloon, no prepayment penalty, and I had to put 5% down, great property, the returns are great, but it was a paid more than it was worth. You know, there are different ways to look at that but that was flagged for a tax increase. And so, you know, we fought that, and have made a very strong argument that, well, look, this is the reason we bought this was because of premium financing. And I've seen friendly neighbour, one of my properties, they bought a very large complex, and they're fighting a reassessment. Because even though they put a certain amount of money into the property and it's a large complex, like, they're arguing that, hey, you know, it's going to take, we paid a premium, because there's not a lot of property around like this, but it was severely distressed and we're not going to see a return on our investment for X amount of years. And so I think oftentimes, rather than just try and fight the assessment as a fight, sometimes you can go in and negotiate and create a situation where you talk to the board. So there's a board of folks that they work for the school district, for instance, you know, the appropriate school districts and say, they flag these properties, then they try and increase your taxes. So as the property owner, you have to go in with a realistic approach to say, hey, look, I know, these taxes are going to go up, but hey, I bought a property and here's why we pay more for it, or here's the story. And here's how long of the time is going to take to increase the taxes and sometimes getting a little bit more personal and we still want to an attorney involved, and you still want to be able to with someone experienced with that type of appeal. But I think that oftentimes, if you kind of go into it with a positive intention, and are truly enough, you're doing a value-add to the property, things like that, you're able to kind of create some sort of negotiation that those boards will oftentimes, like, at least in smaller areas are typically friendly. I mean, I don't want to jinx myself and get into a situation where your taxes double but I think you can oftentimes negotiate what that actual raise would be. But to answer your question when it comes to underwriting, will typically still budget that common level ratio, which is 80% of the purchase price, say, hey, we're budgeting worst case scenario, here's what the taxes are. And here's what we asked, so here's what we got the budget. And great if they don't get raised, you know, for five years, and they don't get raised at all, then we lucked out but we live in an area where they don't look at every single transaction. I mean, I've been fortunate in some instances where the taxes have stayed the same, and I paid a lot more than what the previous owner did, but they kept the taxes the same. So they're not as aggressive as other areas. But that being said maybe it's just a matter of time before they really see it. And I just think it's always a matter of when you underwrite, you got to play it for the worst and play it for those increases, but when they come like try to negotiate and try to fight those increase because more often, you can have some level of compromise. James:  Absolutely, yes. Yes, I'm surprised that you can negotiate to that level, which makes sense, right? I mean, these are some county I think they're not very flexible. So what about insurance? I mean, do you get a lot of snowstorm and storms in that, n Pennsylvania? I know it's, I know, it happens but can you tell us how is the insurance costs that you and your underwrite? Jason:  Our winters are terrible, I mean if you like to ski and you like outdoor stuff in the winter, but yes, I guess our insurance does cover for things; like a few winters ago, there was a terrible snowstorm and ended up being the second-highest or third highest snowfall of all time in the US, in the major metros, almost 200 inches of snow that fell back winter, it was disgusting, but there was a lot of roof damage and gutter damage and all sorts of building damage. So I think insurance companies, they billed that into their underwriting. But yes, you plan for those things. You know, as I built my business, from a practical standpoint, have always tried to hire maintenance guys that can handle like your general things, like, you know. If I call a contractor to repair gutters and [inaudible42:37], he may bill $10,000. But I know that I can have my guys in-house do it for $3,000. So we try to take an approach where if there's a lot of stuff that we can fix, we do it ourselves, but here really the winters and the worst things that can happen. And so, you have to kind of bill that into your plan. But there's a lot of things you can do to mitigate damage in the winter, and it just becomes a different different analysis. I mean, I'm sure people have own properties and like, where you're at Texas, or Arizona, where it gets really, really hot, there are other things that they have to do to plan out for insurance or if you live in a hurricane area, the same thing. So I think that when you underwrite from an insurance perspective, especially on the larger deals, they're going to give you a plan, they're going to tell you, hey, these are the things we need to do. And so oftentimes, as the owner operator, you got to take care of those issues, whether it's deferred maintenance or just ongoing maintenance. A lot of your listeners might know that the letters going to ask for those repairs so that keeps you from having, you know, it's that routine maintenance and ongoing maintenance that you have to do with your property to ensure that you're not just like waiting for some big insurance claim to happen to put money back in the property. So, in a sense, the lenders forcing you to make sure you keep up with your property. James:  Got it. So you self manage your own property and you started from quads and duplexes, is that right? Jason:  Correct, yes. James:  Right. So what do you think is an advantage to self manage? And what's the disadvantage of self-managing this larger apartment complexes where you're buying a 200 and 100 units right now? Jason:  I mean, I think I'll start with the disadvantages, I think the disadvantage is that you're at some level, you're always involved with managing employees; so you deal with those people, you're dealing with tenants and their problems. And now, you know, at our level, where I've got a number of employees, I don't have to really get involved with the tenant level too much anymore. But that sort of the problem is that you're going to find yourself in the mix and dealing with situations too close to home. And so if you're a passive investor, you're just getting a return on your money. So when you self manages, you're earning that kind of, like, extra return that you get. But the advantage of self-managing, I think, you can control the property better. You have a better handle on what's going on because you're right at the front lines. I think, with a lot of syndicators, at least, well, even people that have smaller portfolios, and if they tried to get a third party manager, that's the hardest part of the business is finding a quality, third party management. And I think if, you know, somebody said it once, and it's not entirely true but somebody said to me once that no one's ever going to manage it, as well as the owner. And I feel like if you have your skin in the game, you know, if you self manage it, you're going to make sure things go right. Like the idea that I jumped out, try to fill 16 units when I was between property managers were, if that was with a third-party manager, well, right, and I can manage my property manager and say, hey look, you got to be refreshing the ads every day on apartments.com. I need you to track your leads and follow up with people. And you can control the process to make sure that you're at the occupancy level that you want, making sure that your maintenance calls are being followed up on. But that is a little bit of a headache, but at the same point, you know that you learn that. I mean, if you self managed, you're getting typically in a syndication, you're going to have the property management fee, the asset management fee. So yes, it's work, but it's extra income. And if it's something you enjoy doing, you know, leading a team of people to manage the property, it can be a lot of fun and rewarding, too. James:  Yeah, it's very rewarding, because now you're doing the whole pipeline end to end and how are you controlling a deal. So let's go back to a bit more personal stuff, right? What do you think is like the top three things that are your secret sauce to your success? Jason:  Okay. Let's say one would be not giving up, just always maintaining a positive attitude. That sounds so simple, but I mean, there are literally things every day, as you know, in this business that make you question like, why am I doing this? Why am I still, this is driving me nuts. And so I just think, you know, always keeping that positive attitude, because what you focus on expands. And if you're focused on the negative, then all you're going to see is the negative. And so, but it's true in any business, not just apartments, so that's one thing. Number two, I've had a lot of success with getting off market deals, whether it's been the 205 unit or a duplex when I was starting out. You know, just really see the value of building a relationship with sellers, building relationships with brokers and so it's that relationship building, where just trying to take a genuine interest in other people become friends with them. And you know, hey, someday down the line, we may do business, and it always seems to come back in spades, later on. So that's probably like, the second thing I think I'm pretty good at. And the third thing is just, knowing what's a good deal and being able to pull the trigger, not overanalyze too much. I know a lot of times you get stuck in the weeds, and it shows the underwriting and things like that, where you just spend too much time dealing with, you know, just analyzing, not pulling the trigger. So that could be a fall at times but I think that's worked in terms of being able to take down properties and just make a decision and move forward. But knowing when to pull back and knowing once you know, when things aren't right. James:  Yes, interesting. And why do you do what you're doing every day? Jason:  Yes, I mean, as I said, earlier, I started out I was 23 years old, I wanted to be a millionaire, that was great early on. Well, at some point, it became the ability to be free of a job and not that for its own sake, but to be around for my family and friends. And so many people slave away on a day job and die young, because they traded their time for money. So evolved into that and really now I feel like creating better properties in our city, helping improve our area, providing valid and quality employment on a scale to people that are looking for work. You know, being able to get to have that freedom to spend with my family and again, being able to live a large and rich life of being able to give back to others and using our platform or the money we make, to make a better world for other people and give back. James:  Very noble means. And is there a proud moment in your whole real estate career that you think I'm really, really proud of a thing that you did and that's something that you can never forget? Jason:  You know, the easy answers probably always, like the most recent deal, you know, dealt. I think that, for me, probably one of the proudest moments, just being able to walk away from the day job. You know that was, I was making a really good income. And there's probably a four or five year period there, where I just kept saying, I'm going to leave my job, I'm going to leave my job. And I just finally got the courage to be able to, like walk away and have that confidence in myself that I can do this and have it be sustainable living. I just, you know, for whatever reason, was probably full of more self-doubt that I needed to so just being able to just kind of like barrel forward and do it, I was really proud of that moment. James:  Yes, that follows you until the end, but it's memories so awesome. And I think that's what we have Jason, why don't you tell our audience on how they can get in touch with you and where's the best place to reach you? Jason:  Sure. If anybody wants to get on my calendar and have a chat, they can find me on LinkedIn, Jason Pero. They can find me on Facebook as well. If you want to have a chance to get my email, Jasonpero@yahoo.com and then my cell phone. I can get that out as well, too. James:  Okay. You don't have to give it out on the podcast. Jason: Okay. James:  But yeah, it's up to you. Okay, so awesome. Thank you very much for joining us, Jason. I really enjoyed learning about the Pennsylvania market and how did you grow from quads and duplexes to like almost 900 units right now, under management and I did learn a lot and I'm sure my audience will too. Thank you very much. Jason:  Thank you, James.

James: Hey, audience and listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast where we focus a lot on value-add, commercial real estate investing and we usually talk to commercial real estate operators who have been very active buying deals nowadays.  Today, I have Brian Murray. So if you have not heard about Brian Murray, he's the author of the best-selling and award-winning book: Crushing It in Apartments and Commercial Real Estate. And he owns almost 700 units right now on his own and I think out of 700, 600 of it is apartments and 100 units are on office sites. Hey, Brian, welcome to the show.  Brian: I'm really happy to be here, James. Thanks for having me. James: Really happy to have you here. And so tell me about, how did you go from 0 to 600 multifamily 0 to 700 asset classes on your own without syndication?   Brian: Yeah, well, you know, I started 12 years ago and I'm located in Upstate New York. That's quite a bit different market than New York City. But my first property was an office building and it was a distressed office building and from that very first deal, I did a lot of value-adds. Frankly, I really didn't know what I was doing, I was kind of figuring stuff out as I went along but I progressively made that property perform better over a couple of years and added a ton of value. On that deal, I assumed the mortgage and on my second deal, I did an owner/finance situation. It was another property that was half full, I filled it up and refinanced out of both of those and bought three more properties and followed that path the entire way. Which is find well-located properties that were not well managed or had some other large value-add component, exercise that value add and then refinance, take cash out and buy more properties. And that's the exact path that I followed to get to where I'm at today. James: That's crazy, which is good. I mean, that's the model that, I mean, it's an absolute value-add model, which is basically the theme of this podcast. And so did you buy and then improve it and then refinance the money out or did you sell it and I didn't get that far, can you clarify that? Brian: Yeah. So I refinance the money out. I am primarily buying hold, still to this day. But especially in the first 10 years, I think I sold one or two properties, smaller properties, for the most part, during that time. I am selling some of my smaller properties right now to redeploy those funds into larger properties, but my strategy has really been buying hold. James: Awesome. Awesome. So before we go further, I want to clarify about your book, Crushing It. I mean, I remember asking this question to you when we met face-to-face. So did Gary take the 'Crushing' name from you or you took it from him? Which one is that?  Brian: You know, so his book, Crushing It, came out about a year after mine but he launched a book called Crush It prior to when mine came out. But he took the Crushing It and you know, but that's fine. It doesn't matter. It's all good.  James: Well, it must be a good name because both of you are like a best seller, you know, in your own domain. So awesome. So right now what's your plan? I mean you own this many units on your own and what's your plan right now?  Brian: So right now, I'm really focused on diversifying. I was really excited to do my first Mastermind, which was last year, which is how you and I met and I met some great people at that Mastermind and highly recommend that to other people; surround yourself with other folks that are doing what you're doing. But when I went off to this Mastermind, it was really eye-opening for me because pretty much everybody there was doing syndication and it was a model that was really new for me and I just learned a ton about what people were doing.  And my model has worked great for me up to this point, but I've reached a size, we're growing purely organically. It's becoming more challenging to maintain that pace of growth. I think also with valuations at a higher point, it's more and more challenging each year to pull that much value-add out with refis. I think another factor that's come into play is I've been very, very dedicated to putting every dollar that I've earned back into my real estate. That's been a been a big part of how I've done what I've done is to continuously reinvest back in. As a result of that, to this point, I've been living fairly frugally and you know at a certain point, you want to not have to put every dollar back in but you know, to maintain that growth rate, I've got to look at other options. I also want to diversify geographically because most of my properties are in one location. And so I'm in the middle of my first syndication right now and I've met so many good people that now, I'm developing partners and looking at new markets and it's very exciting for me. I love to learn, I love to try new things and getting into these other markets and, you know, meeting accomplished people like yourself, it's very motivating. So I'm just super excited about it.  James: Yeah, it's eye-opening when you go and talk to different people who are doing the same level as you are doing much more higher level because you can see a lot of different thought processes and how people do things. So why are you moving towards syndication? I mean, you own like so many units on your own, can you go into a bit more detail on why do you think syndication is going to be beneficial for you right now in this market cycle as well or on your investment side?  Brian: Well, you know syndication, it does open up a lot more opportunities in terms of size. So for example, right now, I'm looking very closely at an apartment complex that's approximately 300 units. It's in a market that's new for me that I've been doing a lot of research on and that would be a real challenge to try to pull off on my own. It really wouldn't be possible right now. So the property that I've purchased strictly on my own, without raising any outside money, I did last year, it was 126 units and you know to try to purchase something that's 300 plus units that wouldn't be possible for me right now. So it's pretty exciting and I think another thing is I really enjoy working with the idea of doing some projects with partners and getting into some of these new markets. So, there's another piece of it that's kind of exciting is, I've reached a point where I've done pretty well for myself and the idea of helping other investors who want to put their money to work to achieve their goals, I think that's going to be rewarding too. That if a project does really well that, it's all those limited partners that come in that can then improve their lives through their investment as well. And if I can be a part of that, I think I'll find that very rewarding.  James: Okay, that's awesome. So scalability is important and you think of helping others as well to make money, especially I think other investors or other GPs who needs your skills, I would say? Brian:  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and that's one of the things that's great too is I've found that it's meeting these other people that are doing it, I've got a different experience. So just like I'm learning from people like you, I'm finding that partners I can bring some different perspectives and value to the table as well. So you always want to partner with people that have strengths in areas that are different from you and that's what makes a strong team. James: Absolutely, especially in commercial real estate because the number of knobs that you can tune, there are so many knobs and especially like in multifamily because it's very management intensive compared to the triple net, other commercial properties. Multi-family is very management intensive and it gives a lot of ways to make more money or to scale down or to scale up. Even though you'd be really, really skilled at that but it just gives you a lot more opportunity. And the lease is one year term or six months term; you can quickly raise or reduce rents, it gives you a lot more fungibility, I would say. I mean, you have like SAS, we talked, in the beginning. You have like 600 units multifamily and 100 office space? Brian: Yes.  James: So can we go a bit more detail into the office? What kind of office is it and how did you strategically balance within the 600 and 100 office? Is it optimistic or what did you see and why did you do it?  Brian: So I started off with the office and actually, my second property was retail and so, starting on that commercial side was really interesting. I think one of the things that did for me is really emphasized my focus on customer service and customer care with tenants. And when I tried my first multifamily, I think that there were differences but they're also a lot of similarities. So the value-added approach that I was taking to office retail worked just as well with multifamily. And our focus on really taking care of our tenants as our customers really served us really well in that area also. Over time, as recently as two or three years ago, we had reached a point where up to that point we had more office and Retail and then about two years ago, I would say, we were 50/50 and now we're closer to two thirds, maybe even 70% multifamily with the rest commercial in terms of the makeup of our portfolio. So as time went by, we've really gravitated toward multifamily and that's our 100% focus right now. I think the biggest thing is that there's a number of things we like about multi-family. From our experience with commercial, you've always got a little bit more risk because you tend to have, not always, but you often will have tenants that comprise a disproportionately large percentage of your income and that can leave you really vulnerable if somebody leaves. So, on more than one occasion, we've had a commercial property where someone that takes up more than half of the space in that property, leaves unexpectedly. And then you've got with one tenant leaving, you have a property that is negative cash flow. And if you don't have a portfolio in place to support that, that can be devastating and it's really not fun even if you have a portfolio to perform it. And then when you go to backfill that space, it's more challenging in commercial properties because you oftentimes have to find the exact right tenant for that space, for that location, for the tenant mix and the property, for the configuration of the floor plan. There's a lot of things that you know, different commercial tenants are looking for.  If you just adjust the rents up and down or maybe offer some concessions, a lot of times, the market doesn't immediately react to that. So turning that dial like you do in multifamily, you have less control. So if you're looking for a particular type of commercial tenant, it could be, it's not unusual for us to sit on a vacant space for one two or more years before the right tenant comes along and fits in and takes that space. With multifamily, you've got those dials that you can turn and say, Hey, you know, we're going to run a special. We're going to bump rents, we're going to drop rents and you usually will see a pretty quick reaction from the market to the changes that you make and from my perspective, that's better.  You always want to have more control and the ability to adjust with your market, adjust to combat your competition and different things like that. And frankly, we've enjoyed working with the tenants. I think there's a perception out there that a lot of people would love to invest in commercial because they think they have this idea that working with white collar tenants would be much better, wouldn't have the problems but in our experience, they can be more challenging. They can be more demanding and sometimes even unreasonable with what they're looking for and you don't usually find that as much with the residential tenants in multifamily. We do primarily workforce housing and the people that we deal with there, tend to be good down to earth people and reasonable. So we appreciate that.  James: And when you talk about office, this is the normal office tenants, I guess?  Brian: Yeah full-spectrum, mostly professional tenants. We've got plenty of medical tenants. We have lawyers, accountants, all types, we've got not-for-profit offices, engineers and architects that would pretty much any type of white-collar professionals. James: Got it. That's very interesting. So when was the aha moment that, hey, I should do multifamily because you are focusing a lot on office, what was that triggering moment where you say, okay, I may need to look at this multi-family? Brian:  Well, I don't know if there was a specific moment. I think it happened gradually over time. When we had about 50/50 multifamily and Commercial, I think one of the big things was watching the performance of the two halves of the portfolio and seeing which half was performing better and part of it had to do with the types of value-add projects we were finding and I thought we were better able to execute on the value-adds on the multifamily side. And that portion of our portfolio just kept outperforming the commercial side and I just saw in the market that we're in, more opportunity there and I felt like it was more stable income based. So, I think I think it just happened gradually over time and you kind of tend to slowly move in the direction that's performing well and where the needs are in your Marketplace. James:  Got it. So all the deals that you have done on multifamily, how did you choose? I mean all these deals are in Upstate, New York, is that right? Brian: Yes. James: So you may not choose the city because that's where you live, the area. But how did you select the submarket? Okay, this deal is good in this submarket, what are the parameters that you looked at When you look at a deal in multi-family? Brian: So, we have a really close familiarity with the subtleties of the market and so it's fairly nuanced like there's not one overarching thing. One of the primary drivers of the market where we are is not that far away is a fairly large military base. And so one of the factors that we look at is, well, we definitely welcome military tenants, we have shied away from the properties that are closer to the military base and tend to have a really high percentage of military population. That's just because there's so much turnover, lenders are less excited about lending those properties because they know that long-term, there could be downsizing. A base could close, there's exposure with that. So we have gravitated within our region to the areas that are maybe we will have some military but not be all military and into the communities where people want to live, in the parts of the city that we feel are strong and good safe locations and convenient locations for the major employers in the area. James: Got it. Got it. And on average right now, what is the price per door in that market? Because I never talk to anybody from New York who's buying multifamily. I mean, Upstate, New York,  New York City, but in general, can you give us some guideline on price per door? What cap rated stabilize deals are being bought right now? Brian: Yes, absolutely. So it's a really, really wide range. So that's what I would say at first. The most recent stabilized property that we purchased we paid about 60,000 a door. There are properties selling in the area, 80,000 plus per door, not that often but a lot of the properties we've got, we've purchased a couple of decent sized properties at auction. We've purchased a lot of distressed properties.  The 126 units that we purchased last year, we paid in the 40s per door and that's pretty low for this area actually, but also the occupancy was below 60% when we bought it and it had a lot of deferred maintenance. So I do feel like we got a fair deal and a good deal on that because there was so much upside but there was a reason that it was priced that low. And so you can come along properties in this area that have low price point sometimes even down into the 30s per door, but usually, there's a reason why they might be in severe distress. But for stabilized properties, I think you're mostly looking at maybe 50 to 70 a door.  James: Okay. You also mentioned that you're looking at other markets now?  Brian: Yes. James: And why is that and what're your criteria to look for in other markets?  Brian: So the number one reason is really a risk management type of approach. Where anybody who's come in and taken a close look at our business and one point even a few years back, I had some graduate students come in and they analyzed it and everybody said, hey, you're kind of crazy. You've got all your properties concentrated right here in this one city and now they're all within maybe half an hour drive of that City and there's a lot of risks involved to that.   So if that City that I focused on starts to decline or say that military base that's not that far away, if they downsize then that all affects my portfolio. So I've known for a long time that it would be wise to diversify geographically and it's time to do that. Another factor is frankly, this is not a huge City. It's not a big area that I'm in and we've got limited opportunities for growth here. There's a limited number of properties that come onto the market and realistically, it's time for us to look to other places. So it's a variety of things. James: So let's say you're looking at a new city, a city A and a city B, what do you look for in that city that you think is going to be appealing to you?  Brian: Well, I think there's a variety of different factors. Probably the number one thing that makes the city appealing is job growth, job creation. Being located in Upstate New York, it's not a strong area for job growth. There are pros and cons to being in a market that's undesirable. So I have less competition. I can buy things at much higher cap rates and I can get properties to cash flow better if I have less competition and higher cap rates. So, there's sometimes you can look at it and say, hey, if you're in a market that's less desirable, sometimes you're getting properties at a great deal and there's something to be said for that. But as I look to new markets, I'm trying to find something where cap rates haven't dropped too far and you can get a reasonable return but you've got that benefit of healthy growth in population and jobs. But I think because I'm looking for more geographic to looking for a market that's going to show more stability, it's on an uptrend and just like any other place, no matter what market I'm looking at, I've realized over time just how critical the specific location with any city is.  So almost any City has their good parts and the bad parts and so you could take any market that you choose and break it down into all different, more and less appealing locations. And so, I wouldn't just throw and say, hey, this one city is great, even though the population is growing and you and I talked about a property not that long ago that you are familiar with the location and you very wisely were like, oh, that's not the right deal. It might be a good city, but that's not the right part of the city. James: Correct. So, I mean, you are sitting in Upstate New York, you looked at the entire nation. Can you give us the top three cities that you think that you want to delve in?   James: Brian, so you are sitting in Upstate New York, and you looked at the entire nation, you know how multifamily works because you own 600 on your own. So you just briefly outline what are the things that you look for in a city. So can you name like top three cities that you think that you want to be involved in that you think has a strong growth story?  Brian: Well, it's a work in progress for sure. And what I would say is sort of the candidates that I've narrowed it down to the commonality would be they tend to be the places that people are migrating to and being in Upstate New York where a lot of people are leaving the area, I want to look toward the places they're going.           And so, primarily in the Southeast, pretty much our candidates or everything from starting in probably North Carolina going down to Florida and you know all the way over to maybe the little bit in Texas, but I think Georgia is an interesting market that a lot of people are pursuing. I'm partnering on a project in Kentucky right now and we're looking at North Carolina and there are some very attractive markets in Florida as well.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Before I want to go into the deal level analysis that you do, I want to quickly ask this question because you know, it's very unique to you because you had your own deals and now you're going into syndication, right? So what do you think are the skills needed from yourself when you are having your own deals, where you can skip a distribution or whatever happened to the deal is your own problem. So now you're going into syndication, where it involves a lot more people. What do you think is a few skills that syndicators need to be successful in syndication? Brian: Sure. I mean I would say start a start with one of the big ones which is something that I don't have, which is an investor base and that's a whole job unto itself. Over the years doing what I've been doing and getting some acknowledgments for that, I had a lot of people approach me over the years and say, hey, you know, can I invest and I never took them up on that and now I'm doing that. But what I've realized is in getting to know all these folks that are out there that there's a lot of people who are interested in partnering with me who already have those investor bases and have that skill set of managing those investors and taking care of all aspects of that.  So at this point, I'm primarily thinking that I bring more value in the weighing on the underwriting and the property and identifying all the value-add opportunities and making sure that people look at it as more than a spreadsheet because there's so much more. I toured a property last week and was able to uncover quite a few things. The broker that was there. I was one of the last people, they had about 40 tours and I came through and identified some significant value-add opportunities that the broker said no one else picked up on. And I think that that's something I didn't discuss but we've managed all of our own properties that whole time and so, the knowledge that you get from that just brings so much better of analysis to a deal to make sure you're vetting it properly, you're not overpaying, you're also not underpaying and that there might be value there that you're not realizing. That some of the assumptions that you're making for rent growth are real and can actually be feasible for implementation. And so, you know, those are some of the things that I bring and the experience and having the portfolio I have may give lenders a lot of comfort. And so, I'm recognizing that, hey, I could focus on my strengths and bring some things to a partnership and take those areas that I don't have and other people might and partner up. So if someone's going to do it on their own, they've got to have a pretty broad skill set and that's a challenge, to have the operational knowledge and bring that side and also have the people skills and the investor relationships, it's not easy. I have a lot of respect for people that are doing it all. James: Absolutely. So you are two operators, where you underwrite deals, you understand the operation and you're doing your own asset management. You're missing the investor base creation side of it, which I think you are either partnering or slowly building that up so which is awesome. For me, the operators are at the top of the food chain because they are the backbone of the whole deal. They know what's happening in terms of the rents, how many percents of rent increase is happening on each unit? How many units are being turned? What is the make ready period, what's the delinquency? What is the idling unit period? That's a lot of parameters in the multi-family operation which can be optimized and if you know that very well, your underwriting can be very, very solid, I would say.  Brian: And I think you also bring a reality check. I think that the folks that are operating in the syndication space that don't have as much operating experience, it's easy to look at numbers and assumptions in a spreadsheet and it's challenging to actually recognize what that means in terms of the actual human beings who are there living in the apartments, what it means for the contractors and the property managers and whether what you're assuming is even practical. I look at a spreadsheet and I'm looking at it realizing, hey, you know, I looked at it once a day and I told somebody I'm like, do you understand how much drama will be involved in this? So if you haven't done that you don't know. And sometimes that translates into you might need to maybe tone back your rent growth or you might need to say, hey, maybe we implement something like this over time so that we don't have an all-out rebellion on our hands. So, you know, it's a challenge to bring all those things to the table. James: Yeah, I've seen people who come to me, you know, first few deals and say, oh, this is all bills paid, I'm just going to change it to tenant pay bills. I say, well, that's easy. We can see the value. Well, you do not know how much drama you're going to have there and you might not able to do that on a specific property, a specific location. And they say they want to do them; Utility Bill back, they want to increase the rent, they want to charge covered parking, they want to do laundry increase. So many things they want to do at the same time and I can tell you, they don't have the experience actually. But the thing is, a lot of people have been making money even without all the skills. And I always tell them everybody's a champion in a bull market.  Brian: Exactly, yes. A rising tide lifts all ships, right?  James: Correct. So, people may not look at that skill more in detail or give due consideration to that type of skills where the operation is important, but I think it's important if you want to sustain good rent growth across different market cycles. So coming back to underwriting. So right now you are looking at deals, how many percents of deals do you reject immediately by just looking at it?  Brian: Wow, I would say well over 90%.  James: Okay. So the 10% that you have or what do you look for in that 10%? What do you do? What are the steps that you take to look at that 10%? Brian: You know, I think the very, very first thing I do is I look at the T12. I want to start my analysis of a property by looking at actuals. And then I'm going to base the current situation and the actuals, going to kind of weigh that against my own experience. So, how does the target asking price or the whisper price or whatever they have, how does that compare to the actuals?           And then based on my experience looking through those actuals, what do I see that jumps out at me that might create value? And if you look down through and start looking at the comps and really piecing together this puzzle about, what opportunity is really here? Is the valuation based on something that's completely unrealistic? A lot of times, you'll recognize that some brokers are way better than others at doing a realistic model and pro forma and that's much appreciated. Because you see too many where they'll say, oh, you know, the labor is going to be whatever, $300 a door, and you know, hey, that's crazy. Like it should be 1100 a door or 1000 a door in that market and you know, you'll find out that well, it's been managed by the owner and they don't track the labor. But if you see that it's based on the labor is $2000 a door and you know, hey, we could get that to 900 realistically and still do a good job of maintaining that property, then you start to see an opportunity. It's a combination of running numbers and logical analysis based on experience, is really what I would say it boils down to. James: So in a new market, how would you determine payroll and [12:09unintelligible] on property taxes because this differs by market? Brian: Sure. So all those things are going to vary by market, although many of them will fall within a range. So you're going to say, well, in that market it's going to tend to be higher or lower and I will use my best judgment but if it passes a certain level of scrutiny, that's when you want to really get an established reputable local property manager involved who could look at it and say, okay, for this market specifically, these assumptions you've made are realistic or not realistic. The same thing goes with construction costs they could vary and I can look at it and say, I think that new flooring should be this much but hey, maybe in that market, flooring is much more expensive or maybe it's a lot cheaper. So, you know it's going to be within a certain range, but you just need to figure out how you need to tweak it to get to that market.  James: Got it Got it. Got it. I mean since you have your own property management in your own backyard and now I presume you looking at third partying your property management in this new market, is that correct?  Brian: That's correct.  James: So, what would you think is the most important factor to look at that third party property management company? Brian: Well, at this point, I would say yes, we're relying on third-party property managers. We may eventually consider expanding into new markets or operations, but not doing that right now and evaluating the property managers, it's been a very interesting process. I think you need to look at the full picture. I don't think there's any one thing you can look at. For a project that we're underwriting right now, in evaluating the various property managers, of course, we weigh referrals, you know, that's always good to hear referrals but I think one of the things that are appealing about the property manager that we ended up selecting for this project that we're pursuing is they actually specialize in this specific type of property that we're looking at. So, they have a track record and experience of nearly 10,000 units that are specifically C-Class properties that they've done value-add and executed those successfully. And a fair percentage of those are in the specific market that we're looking at and so there's a lot of things that just lined up. I think if I had to pick the one thing from my interaction with this firm because they toured the property with me as well, but I actually was very impressed with their analysis of our underwriting. They actually went through our assumptions and they toured the property on their own before I got there and gave us their own analysis and without us asking, they also toured the comps and gave us some feedback on that. I was impressed. You could tell that they went out of their way to look at the right things. They looked at the types of things that I would look at and they identified things and based on that write-up, I just said, hey, this is a firm that's experienced. They get it. They did a thorough job. They were professional, they were responsive and you know, it really checked a lot of boxes in terms of giving us an overall sense of comfort with the possibility of working with them. James: Awesome. Awesome. Let's go to a bit more on the value-add side because you have done a lot of value-adds because you buy refi and keep it more long-term. So what is the most valuable value-add multifamily from your experience?  Brian: I would say that the most valuable is it's different for almost every property. If I had to pick, you know, I think that sort of the Big Bang low-hanging fruit tends to be the, I'd say, clean paint landscape, kind of like the surface stuff. If a property is dirty and not well kept and then you make it clean and you put a fresh coat of paint and you landscape it, it can change the entire image of property of fairly modest cost and that can have a huge impact. The rent adjustment is sort of obvious, I think everybody looks at that. I guess big picture if the landlord is way undercharging, of course, you know, that's an obvious big easy one, but one thing that we've ended up doing in a number of cases that is less obvious that people almost never talk about is lowering rents. And in the 126 unit that I mentioned earlier, that's under distress, that's the first thing that we did is we went in and by our assessment, they were trying to charge too much which was a major factor in why the occupancy was so low.  So we immediately went in and cut all the rents and that might seem counterintuitive for a value-add person but over the last six months, we've raised the occupancy 25% and one of the big reasons is we lower the rents and so the net change in terms of the net operating income of that property it skyrocketed by lowering rents. So that also further demonstrates that it really varies, you kind of have to you know. It's sort of like if you look at five different people and say, you know, what change would you make in each person to improve their overall wellness? For some people, they might say stop smoking and some people might say, well, that one needs to eat better so you can't kind of really say well, what's the one thing overall?  James: How did you decide to lower the rent? What was the data that you looked at and decide, okay, I just need to reduce the rent here?  Brian: Well, you know, that's one of the fantastic things when you've got so many properties in one market. You know immediately that based on your other operations that something's off. You know when it's low, you know when it's high, you know when the fees don't match what's present in that market or the concessions don't match.  It becomes very simple. If you're going into a new market, you've got to study those comps and do the best you can and hopefully, tour those comps and do your own homework. But it's one of many advantages of having a concentration of properties in one area. In addition to all the many operational efficiencies that you can have is that you have that market specific knowledge that is there's no substitute for.  James: Got it. Got it. So when you decide to lower the rent, I mean it is a counter-intuitive but I think it makes sense in value-add, especially when you go with that kind of low occupancy. You need to do something to bring up the occupancy because once you bring up the occupancy, you can do a lot of other things. Brian: Exactly. James: You can't do it when the occupancy is low and you're adamant about pushing up the rent. So was your thought process, rather than I leave this unit vacant, that's the biggest loss compared to giving [19:48inaudible] $25 or $30 increase that doesn't make sense.  Brian: Yes. That's right. So, you know that's been one of the strategies that I've adhered to and has worked well; you lower the rents and lease it up and then you make improvements as you go and then you raise rents from there. Nothing more expensive than vacant space. The other piece of that which is an advantage of not syndicating is that I have been able in many cases to fund many of the improvements out of cash flow. So with this particular property, we did lower the rents, but the occupancy has been brought way up. So we've just crossed a threshold where now this property is cash flowing again and all that cash flow is going to be directed right back into making improvements, probably, for the next few years at least. And so, that's a perfect example of well, if you're going to syndicate and you need to pay investors, you really can't be investing all of your cash flow back into a property.  So what do you need to do? You need to raise some money up front to pay for those improvements and not count on cash flow so that you can achieve your investor returns and start to get them their money back.  James: Yeah. That's the one thing different with syndicated deal versus owning your own deals. You don't have to raise so much money so you can take your cash flow and just put it back. With a syndication [21:27crosstalk/inaudible] and you may lose deals because you're competing with somebody who has a lot of money versus somebody who is syndicating.  Brian: That's right. James: It's very interesting. So in terms of, I'm going to your personal side, is there a proud moment in your life or not in your life, toward your real estate career, that you think, I would remember that moment throughout my life until the end; can you describe that moment?  Brian: Oh, wow, you know there's been so many moments, but not all good.  James: No, no, the proudest moment where you think you really made a big impact on something.  Brian: I never really expected this but some of the proudest moments that I've had has been since my book came out and I would have never guessed that that would lead to that but some of the feedback that I've gotten from readers that they've shared with me that it's changed their lives that they started into investing and have already built portfolios. And to see the direct link between the book and people, you know, really making improvements in their lives has been extremely rewarding. So I think one of the great things is that I really went into the idea of writing the book just because I wanted to share what I've learned, the mistakes I've made and to help other people, but I never really thought that it would sell very many copies or that people would have that kind of effect and the fact that it did. When I get a letter, a note from somebody, it's been extremely rewarding. So now I kind of remember that I think that's been a big impact.  James: Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, I get a lot of notes from my books as well and sometimes you don't really take it seriously because for us it's just common knowledge from what we have learned. But some notes do make us think, oh, I really really made an impact on someone. I mean, it's mind-blowing in how many lives can be changed with the things that you share in a book.  Brian: Right, right. Yeah. Absolutely.  James: Yeah. So the next second question is why do you do what you're doing? Brian: Well. You know and it's interesting. I mean actually, in the book I share at one point, this was a few years back, I had somebody come up to me and they said you know, how much is enough? Like you are so greedy, why do you keep going? And I just realized that this person doesn't understand, they missed the whole point that it's just rewarding to take a property that's not performing, that's in distress, that's maybe even a bad thing in a community and to turn it around and make it a better place for people to live. You help the tenants and you help the community and to do that and start to get involved. Like I do meetups now and I met new people and threw those in the book to help other investors, and so, you know, I look forward to going to work every day. I enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge of finding and executing on properties that aren't achieving up to their potential and making a better place for people to live and more profitable at the same time. So I just think it's fun. Like I enjoy what I do.  James: Yeah, it's like a discovery, you're trying to discover these from your paper to the real stuff. Especially when you are underwriting because you're assuming a lot of things and how does that whole assumption become a reality? You know, it's very interesting to see the output of that become [25:42inaudible] people's lives, which is just... Brian: Absolutely. James: So we really had a really good knowledge box from you, Brian. So can you tell our listeners and audience how to get hold of you?  Brian: Sure, you know, your listeners can find me on Facebook. You can find me on LinkedIn, you know, you can find the book on amazon.com or on the book website is crushingit.info and my company's website is Washingtonstreetproperties.com  And if anybody is interested in reaching out, I'd be glad to hear from them.  James: Awesome, Brian. Thank you for coming and joining us. I think that's it. Thank you.  Brian: Thanks, James, was an honor.

James:  Hi listeners and audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Through Value-add Real Estate Investing Podcast. Today, we have Brian Hamrick. Brian owns 370 units which 2/3 of it is syndicated, the remaining is owned by him. He's from Grand Rapids, Michigan. He does multifamily, self-storage and also non-performing notes and Brian is also the past president of Rental Properties Owner Association.  Hey, Brian, welcome to the show.  Brian: Hey, James, great to be here. Thanks for having me.  James: I'm really happy to have you here. I mean, you have been podcasting for the past three years. You have a really good audience because I remember after showing up on your podcast, a lot of people did contact me. So I'm sure a lot of people love your podcast as well.  Brian: That's fantastic. I'm glad to hear that.  James: Yes. So can we go a bit more detailed into what is this Rental Properties Owners Association, how do they add value to syndicators or landlords or tenants? Can you describe a bit more on that? Brian: Sure, the Rental Property Owners Association, which I'm a past president of, I'm currently on the executive committee and I sit on a number of different committees, they are a landlord representation organization.  So we also work a lot with Real Estate Investors and provide all kinds of training for both landlords and Real Estate Investors. Every year, we have an annual conference where we have National Speakers come in and talk about all different types of investing asset classes and whatnot. And really I got involved with it because when I moved here to Grand Rapids, 15 years ago, I was looking for a professional organization that I could become part of that would help me network with other professionals in the industry. People who own rental properties and knew how to profit from it and also just an organization that would help teach best practices so I could learn the ropes how to do it and certainly through the Rental Property Owners Association and the people I've met there, I've learned a lot.  We provide a lot of training but probably what I consider most important of all is we have a legislative committee that works with lawmakers, both local and at the state level, to help push through bills that help rental property owners and also help prevent bills from becoming a reality that would hurt us; anything that has to do with like rent control or some of those hot button issues that as landlords and rental property owners would like to avoid.  James: Yeah, very interesting. So like New York and I think, Oregon now is rent control states, if I'm not mistaken, so they probably have similar Association like yours in that city, I guess. Brian: I would hope so. It sounds like they're fighting a losing battle as you and I both know as rental property owners, you know, I believe you invest out of state, out of your area, is that correct?  James: No. No, I'm from Austin. I invest everything in Austin and San Antonio. Brian: Okay. So would you even consider investing in a city or a state that has rent control?  James: No. Of course not.  Brian: Yeah. It's really detrimental to the market and I think it's going to cause a lot of problems. I used to live in Santa Monica, California where they had rent control and you can see the negative results of that. James: Oh, Santa Monica in California, did they have rent control in the past?  Brian: Yeah, a lot of the Los Angeles counties, you know, it's kind of county by county, city by city, area by area, but there is rent control in Los Angeles in certain areas and you can just see how rental property owners, who own buildings in rent control areas, have no incentive to put money back into them. They're not putting the capital expenditures back into their property to keep them in good shape because there's no incentive to do so. They can't raise rents beyond a certain amount each year and you know, so why would you invest $100,000 back into your building if you're not going to get that out in value? James: Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't make sense for a business. So you may not run it as a business, you may be just run it as cash flow, I don't know, it's like a cash flow investment. I guess you don't have to spend any capital on it.  Brian: I can see how if you've owned the property for a long time and you bought it at the right price at the right time, you could probably be doing well with cash flow. But in these markets where you see a lot of rent control, they're expensive markets. So I'm not really sure once rent control is instituted in these markets what's going to incentivize new investors to come in and bring fresh money into the market. James: Interesting interesting. So coming back to your portfolio, can you tell me in terms of your holdings, how much is multifamily, how much is self-storage? How many percents of each one of these and how much is non-performing notes?  Brian: Sure. Sure. So multi-family is my bread and butter. I've been doing that since 2008. I moved to Grand Rapids in 2005 and 2008 the bubble burst, you know, we entered the Great Recession, it was a buyers' market. I bought my first 12 unit, I was using my own money in the beginning, started using other people's money and then started syndicating.  We currently have about 370 units here in the Grand Rapids area, Grand Rapids, Michigan and that's multi-family residential. In 2018 we purchased a self-storage facility, it's about 28,000 square foot, we're currently adding another 15,000 square foot to it and that's been a fantastic investment, I really love self-storage. And then, as you mentioned, I host a podcast - The Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast - and one of my guests over two years ago was a gentleman by the name of Gene Chandler and he was investing in non-performing notes and I really liked his strategy so much that I ended up investing well over 300,000 dollars with them and the results have just been fantastic.  James: So, you now do multifamily and now you're doing two other asset class. So can you tell me what does multifamily did not offer that these two other asset class offers? Brian: Well, I like you, I'm investing in my own backyard for when it comes to multifamily. Even though I've bought and sold over 450 units, in 2015, I stopped buying multifamily altogether because the values had gone to a point where I could no longer justify syndication. I couldn't get the returns that I needed for my investors to be able to to pay the prices that people were asking. The last two deals I found - one was off-market, one was kind of in between market - and I can go into details on that but anything that I saw after that point just, I was so spoiled by the prices I was getting between 2008-2014, that I started looking for other asset classes.  And there were probably about 3 years where I just sat on the fence, waiting to see if the market would change or something else would come along. And at some point, one of the people who I met through the podcast, brought me a self-storage deal that he had found off-market. I looked at it, I like the numbers. His underwriting was very conservative, but the numbers were very compelling and we ended up buying that in 2018. And just in one year of basically bringing the rents up to market value and switching to a virtual online web-based management system, we were able to add over $700,000 in value to that property. So I like the simplicity of managing and owning self-storage more so than multifamily because in multifamily, you have tenants and plumbing issues... James: So it's very Property Management intensive, right? Brian:  It definitely is and the self-storage, it's not. When you have turn-over, you're basically sweeping out a metal shed, you know, so it's a lot easier to manage and own and operate self-storage, especially when you're in a good market and I think we bought in an excellent market. It's just north of Lansing, Michigan. And then with the non-performing notes, I found a strategic partner who handled a lot of the nuts and bolts of that and I was able to invest with him somewhat passively so I enjoyed that aspect of investing there and the returns we were getting were very good.  James: Interesting. Yeah, I mean, as I mentioned in my book, commercial asset classes go in cycles. I mean, I know I'm a multi-family guy and your bread and butter is multifamily but if you find the right operators in other asset classes, you can make a lot more money or equal amount of money as what you're making with multi-family. So, would you think so? Brian: Absolutely. Finding the right strategic partners in other asset classes that's one of the things I set my mind to when I realize I'm just not seeing the returns I want to see in multifamily and apartments in my area where I'm comfortable investing. Now, have you looked at other asset classes? James: I did look at a few asset class. I mean the asset class that I looked at is also like, you know, self-storage or mobile home parks but it's also in demand. I'm surprised to see here that you found something in 2018 because I thought self-storage is a hot asset class as well, I will risk going after that. Brian: Yeah, it was a lucky strike and we've been looking for similar opportunities. But yeah, we're not finding them. What we're doing instead is building ground-up construction in self-storage, finding locations where the demographics are right and the need for more square footage of self-storage space is there and then we go in and fill that need. James: Yeah, but I'm happy that you are looking at multifamily is not like the only asset class throughout the whole real estate cycle. I mean you felt like in 2015, things picked up and you really can't find the prices that you want and you have changed strategy which is how an investor should be. You always want to look at what's available out there, the deal flow because the economy is still doing very well. There's a lot of capital out there and it's just harder to find a great really-making-sense deal. I wouldn't say deals, making sense deals in multi-family, something that makes sense. It's just so hard to find out nowadays. Brian: Absolutely. As an investor, you have to stay nimble and flexible and be open to other opportunities. Now, I know a lot of people in our field, our asset class of multifamily and apartments will find strategic partners outside of their area like in Texas or Georgia or wherever and partner with strategic partners who are able to find better value and better yields in their Investments. But I've had some bad experiences early on with some single-families that I owned out of state so I've always been very hesitant since then to own rental property, residential rental property, out of state. James: So you like to have any property within your own backyard, but you like to diversify within asset classes. Some people have one asset class, but they go across the nation. Like some people like to buy multi-family across the nation, wherever make sense but you are doing it the other way around. Brian: Yeah. Since I've branched out into self-storage and non-performing notes, I'm comfortable switching up asset classes. James: Awesome. So on self-storage, are you the operator, are you the primary guy?  Brian: No, my strategic partner is. He's the one who found the deal off-market, he negotiated it. I basically came in and raised the money; we syndicated that and raise the funds to be able to acquire it. James: Got it. Very interesting. And on the performing notes, you have a strategic partner, I would say, right? Brian: Yeah, I have a strategic partner on that. He's the one who knows that world. He's been doing it for well over six years now and really knows how to negotiate with the lender who we're purchasing a non-performing note from. He works with the homeowners to try to keep them in the home and figure out if that's even possible and then knows who the title company is that he should work with to get the right due diligence done and he's got the different scenarios in his head of how we can profit off of these notes. If we keep the homeowner in the home, what are the strategies there for us to maximize our profit or if we have to go through the foreclosure process. How do we go about that and maximize our returns in those cases as well. James: Interesting. Interesting. So if you get a multi-family deal today, would you still do it? Brian: If I found a deal that made sense and my underwriting shows that I could get the returns to my investors that they're accustomed to, I'd do it in a second, absolutely.  James: Okay. Okay. So let's talk about the market and submarket selection. So why did you move from California to Grand Rapids, Michigan?  Everybody's heading to Texas and Florida from California.  Brian: I'm from Michigan, originally. James: Oh, you're from Michigan? Okay, that makes a lot of sense.  Brian: Yeah, my wife is from here as well. So we met in California but decided okay, if we get married, start a family we didn't want to do it in Los Angeles, it's just too busy there.  James: Makes sense. Yeah, I mean just based on data that 50% of the population move to Texas And I think there's a lot more but Texas and Florida is the favorite destination for people from California. That's why I was asking the question. And how do you select the submarket in Grand Rapids, Michigan? Like how do you select which submarket to really do the deal? Brian:  Well eyes because I live here, I am looking within a half hour to an hour of where I live. Grand Rapids is very strong, has very strong demographics. It's one of the few Midwest cities that really bounce back strong from the Great Recession. A lot of diversified manufacturing industry. Furniture, Amway is here, we've got a lot of different industries and employment based here. So when I look at submarkets, I'm looking more at the neighborhoods, what's the crime rate in that neighborhood? What's the income level in that? What kind of rents can we command and by the way, I'll buy B properties and C properties or you know, C minus properties that we can push into that C plus B minus range. But I will avoid the The D areas and I've seen a lot of opportunities in the D areas. And by D, I mean where you have a lot higher crime rate, where you have a lot more evictions and tenant turnover and problems.  So I'm just very careful about and I work with the property management company that has a good grasp of these areas. So when we look at a property, we can really get a sense of if we buy this, is there an upside value, can we improve it and get higher rents, get better residents in here or is it going to be bound by the neighborhood it's in, that where it is now is what just where it's going to be? James:  Got it. Got it. Interesting. What about underwriting? I mean, when you look at a deal like I mean when you are buying multifamily, right? So how would you select the deal? Let's say a hundred deals been sent to you, do you know how many percents of it you would reject? Brian: Right now 100%. I'm not even looking right now, but what I'll do is I'll do a quick rule of thumb. Okay, what's the net operating income? What's the cap rate that they're asking? Is there upside potential? And of course, if it's listed by a broker, they'll always tell you the market the rents are way under market. you can raise the rent. No problem. That's sometimes true, sometimes not true.  But this area is so strong that any seller right now knows that they can get top dollar and while there's a lot of Institutions and out-of-state investors and even International investors who are willing to pay top dollar, the yields that they are willing to accept are much lower than what I'm willing to pay, which is why I'm not even looking at the moment.  James: Very interesting. Now I see it's happening across the country. I thought it was only happening in Texas and Florida but looks like across the country, that's what's happening. It's just so hard to find deals that used to make sense to us long time ago, right? So it's crazy out there.  Brian: Yeah, and it could just be that I'm spoiled because I was buying during a period when I could buy it at eight nine ten caps. And now, when I see things at five six, six and a half caps, I don't even want to consider them. But had I bought it at those cap rates between 2015 and 2017, I would have made a lot of money. So maybe I'm just a little too stringent in my criteria right now.  James: Yeah. That could be it as well.  Brian: Are you buying right now? James: Well, I mean, well, I'm still buying if I find the right deal. It's just so hard to find the deal that makes sense for my criteria, and I'm sure that's the same thing as your criteria. I'm still buying if I find the right deal but I'm not underwriting a hundred deals, you know, in one month. You know, whatever deal comes to me, I usually know that within the quick look, I know whether it makes sense for me to underwrite or not. And sometimes brokers will call me if they know that a certain deal is something that I would do. That's the only deal that I look at.  Brian: What's your quick back of the napkin way of determining whether or not you want to invest in something? James: If it's an email blast, I probably wouldn't look at it.  Brian: Yeah. Yeah, you kind of eliminate the ones that go out to everybody.  James: Yeah, it's already got everybody on his shop date and coming on an email blast. You know, you have to go on a best and final and best and best and final and then this ultimate best and final offer, which is you're shooting in the dark, right? You're basically bidding against yourself. [20:45 inaudible] I'm not really in a desperate mode to buy deals that go through that kind of process. So when I look for value-add if there's a true value-add deal, I mean, minus the crime rate area, I definitely know the area that has high crime rate, I can check it out quickly Class B and C, but need to have true value-add that we can go and add value. I don't really look at the entry cap rate, but I look for the spread of the cap rate from the time I buy to in the next two years kind of thing without any rent increases.  Brian: I think part of part of my problem, one of the reasons that I've just been on the fence is because we bought a value-add property back in 2015. It was an older building, built in 1920 and it was such an exhaustive process to go in and add value to that property. I was over there like every day. James: It is very tiring to do those value-add deals. To do deep value-adds, I would say.   Brian: Deep, deep value-add. And so my bandwidth for more opportunities was just completely limited because I was so exhausted by working on this one particular project. Now, luckily, we got it to a point where we added tremendous value to it and we're very proud of the work we did but you have to weigh the opportunity cost when you do those value-adds because sometimes they're so intensive that some of the lower hanging fruits, you bypassed that. James: Correct. Yeah. I see some syndicators doing deals every month and they're not doing a deep value-add or they're just doing the lighter value-add. Maybe they're just doing a yield play. [22:30inaudible] they can buy every month. They can claim 5,000 units or 3,000 years versus deep value-add to be like 100 and 200 and 300. It's a really really deep value-add. You probably make a lot more money than the guy who owns 3,000 to 4,000 units, but it's a lot of work.  Brian: It's more than just asset managing. You kind of become a de facto developer. James: Developer, a huge project manager. Yes, so many things but the deep value-add gives you a sense of accomplishment. Brian: It does.  I'm very proud of the work we did on this particular property and more so than any of my other properties because I didn't have to put nearly as much work into them.  James: Yeah, and the deep value-add it becomes a case study, right? Because it truly shows your skills to turn around property.  And people who have done deep value-add it's going to be easier for them to do the lighter [23:30inaudible]   Brian: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent point.  James: So that's very interesting. So can you name like 2 or 3 secret sauces to your success? Brian: The two or three secret sauces to my success. I'm sorry if you hear that printer going in the background there.  James: It's okay. No worries.  Brian: Hopefully that ends soon. Secret sauces to my success; I think doing the underwriting, running my numbers. I always like to say, I like to see my numbers in bullet time. To see all the Matrix, you know, everything slows down and you can see it coming at you. I want to know what are the real expense is going to be after we've acquired the property. One particular mistake that I see a lot of investors making is they assume that the property tax is going to be the same as what the previous owner was paying and that's just not the case. So right there that's one of the main factors that I look at right away, is what is the property tax going to become once I buy this property and that eliminates 50% of the deals that I would even consider. So number one secret sauce is just really understanding the numbers. Not just where they are today, but where they will be once we acquire the property. Number two is having the right team. I am all about partnering with strategic partners who add value because they understand inside and out the asset class that you're investing in. The reason I was able to expand my multifamily portfolio was that I partnered with someone who owned his own property management company and managed the type of properties that I wanted to acquire. That without his assistance and without his team that really knew how to go in and do the due diligence and help me assess upfront, what are the capital expense costs going to be? What are the true costs going to be when we acquire this property? Without that, I would have made a lot of mistakes. The same with self-storage. I partnered with someone who even though he's young and new, somewhat new to the business, he had really studied it, talked to a lot of professionals, been mentored by people and really understood inside and out how we could add value to that self-storage facility. And everything that he put in his pro forma ended up becoming a reality. With my non-performing note partner, I mean he knows that world inside and out. So when we acquire a note, the first 12 that I bought with him, we only had one that we lost money on and that was about $1,700.  James: Out of how many notes?  Brian: We bought 12 notes to start with because I like to test before I bring other investors in so I bought 12 notes with my partner, I JV with him. Five of the notes our average return was over 80%.  James: Wow. What timeline? Brian: A year and a half.  Well, actually, each note is kind of on its own timeline. So I'll tell you that of the twelve notes that he and I purchased together, five of them are closed and paid off like we've made our profit. Our average return on investment, before we split 50/50, our average return was 81% and that included the one note that we lost $1,700 on. Some of the returns that we're getting are phenomenal. Five of the notes are re-performing, which means that we were able to keep the homeowners in their homes, which is fantastic. That's our number one goal. Our average return on those notes as we collect the monthly income is 30%. And then two of them are in some form of foreclosure. In fact, we're about to sell one. We just listed it today actually, so we should make a decent return on that. We always try to work with the homeowner and keep them in the home. Half the time we're able to do that, half the time it just doesn't work out. But you asked me the timeline so, of those five notes that we closed, our average return was 81%, the average number of days that we were in each of those notes was 163 days so that took less than half a year.   James: I mean, those are good great numbers. I mean, I mentioned in my book, find the right operator in that asset class and partner with them or invest with them for passive investors. So as I said in every asset class, there's always good operators. So the numbers you're telling me in non-performing notes in self-storage are huge, right? I mean, I know multifamily you can make money if the market went up and you have a really good operator that can handle that. On average, not everybody is making what you just told me right now on self-storage. So why is multifamily more popular than other asset classes?   Brian: There are more people teaching it.  James: That's absolutely my point. Brian: Yeah, I mean like there are some excellent instructors out there in multifamily and you and I are both the part of a group with one of them. I mean great top-notch training material. Okay. Yeah, there's just fewer people out there. Whereas you have between 10 to 20 people out there teaching multifamily, you could count on one hand the number of people teaching self-storage and it's even less teaching the non-performing note.  James: I understand. Yeah, it is it is true. There's a lot more people teaching multifamily, a lot more boot camps, a lot more 2 days weekend seminars on multifamily compared to self-storage or non-performing notes. And I think multi-family is also very simple to understand, it's a house. Not many people understand what is non-performing notes.  Brian: Yeah, there's all that educational like just understanding and wrapping your head around the concept. I got into multifamily because I understood the economy of scale and I understood people have to have a place to live. So if you can get them to pay their rent and that rent pays all your expenses plus the mortgage, well, you can make a lot of money that way. And then once I understood the next level of value, which is the income valuation method, how commercial multifamily is valued based on the income method and you can increase your returns exponentially if you understand that. The relationship between cap rate and your net operating income and value that was very compelling to me. And I think that still is very compelling when it comes to investing in commercial real estate whether it be multifamily or self-storage. I think non-performing notes, there's a lot more perceived risk in that because it's not valued based on any  - it's hard to understand how that's valued because there are so many different scenarios in which you can profit from non-performing notes. That you can't just say well we value it this way and if you buy this note, this is what you're going to make, it's kind of a crapshoot. But if you do it right and you partner with someone who knows how to avoid the dogs, you can actually make a lot of money doing it.  James: So what is the most valuable value-add in non-performing notes? Brian: You mean an example of one of our...? James: No, not an example. I'm talking about what is the one thing that if you do the most of the time or the frequency of things that you do in non-performing notes that you get the most value out of? Brian: Well, yeah, it differs note by note. I'll give you two examples. One is a property that was pretty much a teardown property that we bought the note on in Middlebury, Indiana. We paid $5,000 for this note and I asked my partner, I mean it's $5,000, this property is a teardown. How are we going to make money on this? And he said, well, we're not buying this for this property for the house that's on it. We're buying it for the land because it's right next door to a farm and this farm is owned by this Amish family. So he sent a realtor over to the Amish family and they ended up paying $35,000 for that note. So after closing costs and paying the realtor and getting our initial $5,000 investment back, our profit was over $24,000 that represented a 245% return and we did that in less than two months. James: Yeah, but you need to identify that opportunity. I mean, it's not like you can go and buy any deals right now. Okay, very interesting. Brian: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Another quick example of how you can profit on notes and I don't want it to lead you to believe that your best profit is always going to be a few foreclose or take possession of the property because you can still make a lot of money if you can work with the homeowners. We bought a note on a property in northern Michigan, probably about 9 or 10 months ago now. And I believe the numbers were in the line of we paid $20,000 for this note, got the homeowners re-performing, the unpaid balance on this note is $41,000. Once we have them season for 12 months, meaning that they're paying on time for 12 months - we've been working with them with a mortgage loan originator, where they can go and get new financing, permanent financing of FHA or Fannie Mae type loan in place with much better interest rate much better payments. Well, when they go do that, they're going to pay off that unpaid balance. So our $19,000 investment, now that I'm thinking about it was $19,000, our $19,000 investment, we're going to get paid that $41,000 of the unpaid balance on their note, plus the money that they've been paying each year. So our return on that is going to be 100%, it's actually over a hundred percent.   James: Across how many years?  Brian: We'll be out of that in under 15 months. James: Okay, interesting. Brian: Because they're going to refinance and when they refinance, we get paid that unpaid balance. James: Got it. Got it. What about on the multifamily properties that you own before 2015? What do you think is the most valuable value-add that you really like?  Brian: Well, they're all great because just anything I bought between 2008 and 2012, I've achieved an infinite return on those.  James: Okay. So refied it by and you kept it? Brian: Yeah. Yeah, we've refinanced, pulled our initial investment out. We have no money in the properties and we're collecting cash flow every month. So you can't calculate a return on that. Probably one of the best examples is a 37 unit that we purchased. We bought it at a short sale in 2009, was about 600,000 is what we paid for it. We put a $200,000 into it right away to replace roofs, windows. It was a hodgepodge of heating systems. There's electric baseboard heat and hot water boiler heat and then gas forced-air furnace heat. It just depended on which unit you were looking at. So we replaced a lot of the mechanicals, made it as much of a new property as we could, as far as just the mechanicals and the roof and the windows. And we refinanced it once it had over 1.1 million dollar value, pulled all of our initial investment out plus some extra cash flow and then we just refinanced it again, put a tenure fixed loan on it through the Freddie Mac. small apartment loan. So we got great terms on it, 30-year amortization. At that point, it valued over two million dollars. So we've added a lot of value to it and the compression of cap rates didn't hurt either.  James: Yeah. Yeah. Those are the awesome deals, the deep value-adds. That's where you can go and refi and make it infinite written because you pulled out all your cost basis. Brian: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's the goal to achieve infinite return. Whenever we can do that, that's what we do.  James: Absolutely. Aren't you worried about the state of the market right now in real estate in general?  Brian: You know, gosh, I was more worried about it two years ago than I am now probably. James: What has changed? Brian: Probably because two years ago, I was thinking, oh, it's going to turn any minute now and then it only got better and better. You and I both know Neil Bala and we talked to him at the last event we were at together and he made a very good case for the continuation of this market. And it basically rests on the fact that the United States, it's one of the few, if not the only places in the world where you can go to get real yield on your investment. We're seeing a lot of international money coming into the United States because in their countries, they're seeing negative yield or 0 yield. Here even if you can still get three or four percent yield on your investment, that's a lot of money. It's bringing a lot of money into this country and that's going to prop up our values for quite a long time. On top of that, I've always fought or believe that interest rates were going to rise and I've been believing that since 2000 and they keep going down. And even now, as we're speaking, they're talking about lowering the rate again by the end of the year. So that interest rate risk, I know we're playing with fire here and eventually, we're going to have to pay the piper but our government seems to keep coming up with ways to prolong this growth and the increase in prices. So am I worried? Not in the short term. No. No. The Economists I listen to are saying, oh, it's going to be a roaring 20s for us. Things are really going to hit the fan and. 2027, 2028, 29. James: Interesting. Yeah, because I think I don't know, maybe my thoughts are similar to yours somehow the Fed has figured out how to do quantitative easing and quantitative tightening. Somehow they're able to contract the economy and bring it down. So they could have found some new mechanism to keep the economy going even though our thought process always has been real estate goes in cycles. But at some point, you will hit an affordability issue, it can't [40:13unintelligible]  go up all the time, right?  Brian: Yes.  James: The prices can go up because the interest rate is coming down because now you can get more cash flow. But at the same time, you can't keep on increasing rent because our wages are not going up so much. I mean, I'm not an economist but at some point, you will hit some roadblock, but I'm not sure where is it and how is going to come.  Brian: Yeah, well, we're seeing a plateauing I think right now in just the rents that we're able to charge, the prices that people are willing to pay but it's still a very strong market. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not going out there and just buying stuff like crazy because I am very conservative and like I said if I can't get the returns that I need to bring investors into my deals, I'm just not even looking at it. I don't anticipate that the market is going to have a huge correction, there might be a bump, I think if you're in a good market, like Grand Rapids, that bump won't be nearly as severe as some other places.  I'm keeping my eye on the market but at the same time, investing conservatively in asset classes that I think will be able to withstand the next correction.  James: Awesome. So let's go back to a personal side of things, right? So is there a proud moment throughout your career in real estate that you will remember for your whole life, one proud moment? Brian: One for a moment to put on my tombstone. James: Yeah, absolutely. That you really think that hard, I'm really proud I did that.  Brian: Yeah. So a couple of answers. I mean any time we're able to go in and improve a property and improving neighborhoods, that always makes me proud, you know, that we're adding value to a neighborhood and community. The older building that I told you about here in Grand Rapids, it was built in 1920. When we bought that it was very tired, kind of poorly managed, it was losing money. We were able to turn that around so I'm very proud of that. I'm very proud of the fact that we also fought very hard and work very closely with the city to be able to put a restaurant in that building. So the fact that when we bought it it was 96 apartment units and about 6,000 square foot of vacant commercial space. Now we had to work with the city to get it rezoned because it had been vacant for so long, it had to be reverted to being zoned residential. So we spent over a year trying to get it rezoned so we could add commercial in there, but we filled up all 6,000 square foot including a restaurant and that took about two or three years to do.  So when I think about what I'm proud of I think I'm definitely proud of that.  James: Awesome. That there is hard work  because you're turning the zoning from residential to mixed use.  Brian: Yeah, mixed-use residential commercial, just dealing with parking, number of parking spots and green space and tree canopies. I mean, it was a massive undertaking.  James: Yeah. It's very interesting that kind of work. I did one that was borderline and we merged it with an apartment and we did so many things. It was a very unique value-add that we recently refinance.  Brian: What was it, a lot of work for you? James: It was a lot of work because you have to go through, you know, buying the deal - you had to buy two deals at the same time. One is the apartment and one is the land and then we have to go to the city to merge these two plots. Then you had to rezone it, then you had to - I mean replot it, rezone it And then after you do a tree survey, you have to do so many different surveys have to do to get that. It's not normal in a residential, you know, where you buy today and increase rent, reduce expense kind of deal. But it's very interesting and people got 80% of our money within 15 months, which is huge, just by doing this creatively.  Brian: That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, you talk about its zoning and tree, you know.  James: Yeah, zoning and tree and all those. Brian: So it's a whole new world and it definitely is costly and time-consuming because you have to have experts on your team. You got to bring experts like architects.  James: Yeah, we brought in architects, engineers.  Brian: Yeah, engineers who even understand what it is that the city is asking for because if you were trying to do that yourself, you just would be a mess. James: Yeah. I mean the good thing about what you said about what I'm proud of this kind of process and 99% of the syndicators don't have that kind of experience. Brian: Yeah. I didn't have that kind of experience but now I do.  James: Most of the time, you just buy buildings and, you know, look at increasing income and reducing expenses and after that, at some point you sell but you don't do different contracts buying land and doing kind of things. So another question for you, Brian, why do you do what you do?  Brian: I love it. I love what I do. I feel very entrepreneurial about it because I've been an employee up until about five or six years ago. Whatever it was I was doing, whatever job, I always embraced it and did the best I could. But what I love about being an entrepreneur, being a full-time real estate investor, now syndicator/asset manager is that it's all very self-motivated. I'm the one who decides what needs to happen, what I need to pay attention to on a day-by-day basis. I don't have a boss or anyone else telling me, 'Hey, Brian, go do this' when I'm like, 'no, I want to go do this instead.' I get to call the shots. So that's what I love about it. I get to call the shots, I get to take time off if I need to take time off and I get to kind of fill my day with activities that I want to be doing. James: Awesome. Hey Brian, you want to tell our listeners and audience how to get hold of you?  Brian: Sure, James. First of all, you can go to my website, which is higinvestor.com. That's HIG is Hamrick Investment Group. You can also listen to my podcast and James you've been a guest on there so you can definitely listen to me interview James. It's the Rental Property Owner and Real Estate Investor Podcast and it's sponsored by the RPOA, which we begin this conversation talking about. And if you want to get in touch with me, you can also email me Brian@higinvestor.com.   James: Awesome, Brian. Thanks for coming in and adding value to my listeners and audience and to myself as well in the kind of things from our discussion here. I think that's it. Thank you very much.  Brian: All right. Thanks, James. It's been a pleasure. It's a lot of fun. James: Lot of fun, thank you.  

James: So few things; we want to go through some of the markets and some of the value-add stuff and I think you do a lot of student housing things. Also, we can go through that as well. Yeah, that should be what it is. And okay, let me just get started. So 1 2 3...  Hey audience, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast where we focus a lot on value-add real estate investing. Today, we have Jeff Greenberg who has more than 40 years experience in management, staff supervision, development, and training. Jeff has been investing since 2007 and has more than 40 million multi-property projects consisting of around 2,000 units. So deals that he controls consist of student housing and some of the multifamily units across, Georgia, Arizona, Texas, and Ohio. And Jeff focuses a lot on value-add student housing, which is very interesting. Until now, we have a lot of podcast interview on conventional multifamily in workforce housing, but now, we're going to talk a lot more about student housing. Jeff has also done market rate and also senior living multifamily properties. Hey, Jeff, welcome to the show.  Jeff: Well, how you doing today?  James: I'm good. So thanks for coming in. I want to go with more details on how did you get started because you rent a thousand units across different states. So can you describe to our listeners and audience on how did you get started?  Jeff: Well, probably similar to a lot of other people, I started out with single-family, but actually never did any single family deals. That was in 2007 when the prices were going down so fast that it was hard to do much in the single-family area as far as REO properties, the bank's weren't releasing them. So I did bump into a guru and so I did go to seminars and did get some mentoring around in 2007-2008. And then started with my first property that I ever bought, other than my own personal residence, was a 20-unit property and it was a syndicated deal.  So we brought in investors into that first deal and that was essentially my entry into it. skipped right past all the single-family stuff. James: And what year was it, Jeff? Jeff: That was the first property we bought, actually it was in 2010. James: Okay. So 2010 you started with 20 units and the guru and the cost that you had taken was that more multifamily or was it more a single-family size? Jeff: It was all multi-family stuff.  James: Okay, got it. So you got into that and then you started buying 20 units and which market was that?  Jeff: Well, that Market was in Harlingen, which is in South Texas. Okay. It's near Brownsville and McAllen, for those people that know that area.  James: Okay. Okay. So 2010 was supposedly supposed to be a perfect time to start investing in real estate after the 2008 crash. So can you describe what happened in your first deal? I mean at high level and what happened and how did you come up, in terms of the results for the first day of... Jeff: Yeah. The first deal, that property was only three years old. It was built in 2007. It was a hundred percent occupied and it was in a very slow growth market. So we had big plans for raising rents and they were already paying electric so we were planning on billing back water. And the problem was it was very difficult to raise the rents. We were getting a lot of resistance and doing the bill back of the water, we met with a lot of resistance. So we had nowhere else to go. It was already a hundred percent occupied because it was a new property. And so that was a plan which didn't work very well because we couldn't get those rents up. It took them a long time to get the rents up. So the lesson learned from there was that you needed to do more research on to the potential for the value-adds. And in that property, we held it for six years; we were supposed to sell in five. We held it to 6 because we drew a line in the sand as far as what price we would take and it took us an extra year before we are able to get that price in order to get the investors a fair return. But it took us an extra year. Otherwise, there wouldn't have been much much of a profit on that property. So it was a seminar.   James: I mean, that's awesome that you're sharing your first lessons learned, right? Because sometimes you know, we forget that there are things that we missed out or there are things that you know, we don't really see it when you go and buy a multi-family. Sometimes you buy in a hot market and it went up 200-300%. People think that they did the work but that's not going to be the case all the time. Jeff:  Well, that's basically what happened on the next property though. So the next property was a property we bought in Houston where it was a foreclosed property that we were buying it. The owner we were buying it from actually bought it as a foreclosure so he had had it for about two years. It is 62 units so he bought it for 600,000 and we bought it for 1.3 after he had it for two years and so we got it for about under 21,000 a unit.  And at the time, in Houston, the values were going from 25,000 to maybe 35,000 a unit so we still bought it under market value and then in three years, we sold it for 2.7 million. And the reason we got that value part of it, it was 85 percent occupied when we got it. We got it up to 95 percent occupied. The revenue was about 36,000, we got it up to about 42,000. But also at that time, the cap rates compressed so we bought it at a 9 cap and sold it at a 7 cap. So we got the advantage of the market, the market appreciation as well as what we did for it so that was a perfect storm for us. So it completely made up for our first one, in that the investors got a 120% return on a three-year whole. So a 40% annualized return, which nobody complained about. James: Yeah, absolutely.  Jeff: But that's unusual and that was totally different from the other property where the investors got a lot better than they would have in the bank, but they didn't get a fantastic return. So different properties, different deals.  James: So I mean that too is conventional multifamily, right?  Jeff: Yeah. James: And how many conventional multifamilies did you do before you start hitting into student housing?  Jeff: Well, the next one after that actually was a student house. I mean, I was invested in another person's deal that was about 700 units 20 million dollar deal that we were in. But the next deal I did after that, actually, we broke up our partnership. My partner back decided not to do real estate anymore and I continued on my own and that's when I got a small property in Ohio. I had a 19-year-old student that went and found this property for me in Oxford, Ohio, and that's when I got into student housing. So we were talking, we mentioned earlier as far as how it getting into student housing, I really didn't plan on it. It was my intern that found the property and said, "Hey, let's get this," and the numbers look good and we got into it. So that was our first student housing deal in Oxford.  James: Yeah. I mean, I'm going to go a bit deeper into that. But I mean you are now in California, you are based California, but you have been buying in McAllen, Texas and Houston and Ohio. So how did you decide on where to go or is it just whatever opportunity that comes to you?  Jeff: Well, I've been pretty opportunistic, basically, when an opportunity comes in. Right now, we're kind of reversing out a little bit and trying to do more focus on markets. But at that point in time, we were just looking at opportunities and when an opportunity came we did our research on the market and did it afterward, rather than doing it up ahead of time. We decided do we really want to be in this market and if we did then we went up to the property. But it was more properties came to us from different directions. The one in Georgia, I had a lady working with me that I had trained and she developed a relationship with a broker in Georgia and that was pretty much where we got the Georgia property from, which was our next student housing property.  James: So one thing I want to clarify. You said you had an intern and you have this lady that you have been training. So do you have interns working for you or do you have students that are looking for deals? Jeff: Yeah. The first one was an intern that I had trained and then after that, there was a group of people that came to me and asked me to train them and so I started training them and teaching them how to find properties. And in the last three years, we've done a couple of deals together, but they basically found the properties. Yeah, and you know that I've been training them as we've been going, showing them a lot of the different aspects of it; doing due diligence with them and taking them on the tours with a lot of those students. Since then things have changed a little bit but at that time, those were people that I have trained. James: So is it like part of your mentoring program or you just train for fun kind of thing? Jeff: It wasn't a formal mentoring program, but it was kind of a mentoring program.  James: Okay got it. Jeff: But it was just more informal that I had helped people and in turn, they would bring properties in and if I like them, would go after them. Say it saves me underwriting a hundred deals to find one, they would underwrite a hundred deals, bring me one and I'd only have to look at a few of them. So much of our deals that I had to look at, you know, when they would bring them supposedly all ready to go and I would decide yay or nay on them if I liked them. James: Okay, got it. So coming back to the student housing and you said one of your interns found it. And, I mean, can you describe how did he find that deal?  Jeff: Well, he was embarrassed to tell me, actually. He was embarrassed to tell me until after we had closed that he actually found in on LoopNet. And you know there are deals on LoopNet but usually, they're overpriced or maybe there's some other problem with them and it so happened that the seller was beaten up by two other buyers prior to my purchase. We got it for a much lower rate. So at the price that we got it at,  it was a great deal but at the original price, it wouldn't have been.  James: Got it. Got it. So let's describe the process. So this intern brought you the deal. So what are the few things that you look at the deal that you think you're going to take a second look at it? Jeff: Well, I mean several things. The one thing I had my interns do is I want to do as little work as possible myself. So I told them I want bullet points on why I want to be on that market, you know, what's the advantages of this market? With student housing, the emphasis is more on the school, but all the different reasons that this is a great market to be in and also as well as the numbers for the property itself.  And basically, they have to come in and give me a sales pitch and convince me with a presentation that this is a deal I want to do. And on the regular market rate ones, you know the typical stuff with the employment and the population growth and the age of the population and all of that typical stuff that we look at. Over the student housing, it's the size of the college, the percentage of rooms available on campus versus off campus, basically, the health of the university. The location of the property, how close it is to the university, those kinds of things that we look for more so on the student housing. James: So, can you go a bit more, dig deeper into how far from the campus which you consider in campus versus other campuses? Jeff:  Well, as far as what we look for, typically, we want something within a mile of the campus. My Georgia one is a block away, my Ohio one is within what they call a Mile Square. My Arizona property is a little bit farther out. It's two miles off campus and that one, it's a little bit more of a struggle but you're not going to get the prime rates and we understood that because when you're two miles out. So you want it close by the campus, you want it on the right side of the campus, rather than way away from the classrooms where people still have to walk a mile across the fields to get to campus. So you want to be on the the the closer side where the classes are but it will help you out also if you're near. the bar district or where all the hangouts are that sometimes will make up for being a little bit far from the campus.  If you're where all the hangout places, the cool places are that helps you out. The other thing in student housing is the bedroom bathroom parody. If you could get a one-on-one with a one-bedroom and one bathroom that's going to be a lot better than your four twos or your 3 ones or whatever. The more bathrooms you have, they like that. Also, it seems that student nowadays, they want to share with fewer people. So a 4-2 wouldn't be as popular as a 2-1, you know where you still got two people sharing a bathroom, but you only have two people that have to get along with each other. And if you could get a 1-1, you're even better off; that they're a lot happier with.  In fact, I was talking to someone the other day that I had some 4-2 that I actually split them in half and made two ones out of them. Just had to put a kitchenette in order that they have fewer people to share. James: Okay, interesting. So have you started focusing fully on student housing now or you're still doing conventional multifamily? Jeff:  We're doing both because I do like the fact that people mess up student housing and it gives us an opportunity, you know, everybody we know from the groups we're in, everybody's looking for value-add multifamily, but there are fewer people looking for value-add student housing. And so that just gives me a little bit of an advantage on that. But other than that, I mean that's the main reason I'm looking at student housing is that there are fewer people looking at it and if you know what to do with the student housing, there are certainly some great opportunities. I don't think I would recommend it as somebody's first opportunity, the first investment because there is a little more risk into it, but it's a good asset class.  James: So let's discuss some of the risks that's involved with student housing. So can you outline a few risks that a newbie should watch out for student housing?  Jeff: Yeah. Well, part of the risk is missing the lease up window, wherein multifamily if you don't get it leased it up this month, maybe I'll lease it up next month. But on student housing, if you get it leased up by a certain time and each campus is usually different, if you don't get it leased up in time, during that time, you may be stuck with empty units for the whole year. So you've got to get it leased up during that time.  The other thing is, you're going to have higher turnover and it depends on the property as well. My Georgia property, we're hardly getting any turnover because there are not a lot of other options in the market. My Ohio property there's plenty of other options so they may go from one property to another each year. Same with my Arizona property, they may switch around. So it's going to depend on what's available at their price range if there's going to be turnover.  My first year on the Ohio property, I think was like 85 percent turnover, which most people will freak out thinking, you know, okay, 85% and it's all at once. It's everybody's gone at the same time. And so, you've got to turn all these units and have them ready for the new tenants coming in. So we always budget for a higher expense as far as because of the turnovers because turnovers, as we know, is one of our bigger expenses so we'll budget for that.  A lot of people think that student housing, you have a lot more in the way of damage and we really haven't seen that, we haven't seen a lot of damage. And the thing is we charge back everything that's caused by the students that not that normal wear and tear. I mean, we get things; wine stains in the carpeting or iron marks where they put an iron down on the carpeting and melted the carpet, shot glasses or beer caps in the garbage disposal. We do get lockouts, you know, where were you're having to fix the door because somebody kicked it in, in order to get in or you get domestic disputes where some boyfriend goes and punches a wall because he's pissed off or something. I mean, we do get some of those but the deposits cover most of that stuff.  James: Got it. I'm sure the parents will pay too, I guess. Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, if it gets beyond the deposit we have then the parents will usually jump in. James:  And how much is the turnover cost that you usually budget for student housing like in conventional usually like for me I usually budget like $100 per unit, per year? Jeff: As far as for turnover? James: Yeah. Not repair and maintenance,  just turn over.  Jeff: Well, if we look at the overall repair and maintenance budget usually we're about five or six hundred, overall. And my student housing ones, my Ohio, I believe we're at 1,800 per units. James: Repair and maintenance? Jeff: Yeah. James: Well, that's a lot.  Jeff: I have to lower that down. I don't even think we're using that but that's what I originally put it about. James: Okay. Got it. Yeah. Because usually total repair and maintenance plus turnover is like 500 to maximum $600 on conventional.  Jeff: Yeah, I mean, mainly because of your turnover costs. On that property, we've been painting every wall every time we turn over. I'm not sure if we need that but we've been doing that. It's been a little bit higher. I mean, it's been higher on that one. The other one in Georgia, our turnover costs aren't nearly as much.  James: And what do you expect other than, do you do anything special to reduce your turnover cost? Jeff:  Well, we try to encourage re-leasing and we do give lower rates for those people that are releasing as well as if they release early, we do give them discounts on that. And in the thing is, on my Georgia property, if they release, we may keep their rents at the same rate or maybe just raise it slightly in order to keep them in because that saves us a lot of money. That saves us a lot of money on the turnovers.  James: Okay, correct. What about the interior? Like carpets vs. vinyl vs metal.  Jeff: Typically, I mean, we don't have to make it too fancy. But we do put, I believe in the Ohio one, we've got the role on vinyl flooring. In the bedrooms, we do have carpeting. It's just Formica countertops. We don't need to do anything fancy and that's going to depend as well on the demographics of your clients. My Ohio property is upper middle class. It's Miami University and it's probably an upper-middle-class clientele. My Georgia property is a very low economic clientele, they would be thrilled with anything we put in there. So we just kind of resurface the Formica countertops. We did some chemical wash on the showers and the tubs and repainted everything. We do have nice laminate floors in there, except for the bedrooms. The bedrooms are the only rooms with carpeting. We just painted the cabinets. From the state that they were in, what we did just totally brightened up the property. I mean, just totally changed it. They were a mess and this isn't an old property. That's a 1999 property but there was some old indoor-outdoor carpeting in the hallways that just look just totally disgusting. That we put all vinyl laminate in the hallway and it looks great now. James: Awesome. And what about during the summer? I mean a lot of them don't stay in the unit, right? So they still pay for the summer or does it get re-rent or is it vacant or what's happening? Jeff: Again, that depends on each of our markets. And the Georgia one, I believe we are 70% for this summer, which is high. I think last year we were about 60 percent during the summer. So those that are going to summer school can stay there. But in August, we'll be back up at 98 to 100% on that property.  That was a property we bought at 30% occupied and now we're over 100, we're at 100 like it's not over. We're at 100% occupancy on that one. James: And what about students which is more like, you know, four-year degree versus postgraduate degree, have you tried experimenting with that? Jeff:  You know, my Ohio property, we have some studio apartments and a lot of those are rented to graduates as well as young Professor. So yeah, those are great tenants if you can get them. The graduates, they're a little more mature and you never hear anything from them so those are great on some of the properties. We do have graduates in some properties, but most of them are second-year students. Typically the schools require that the students stay on campus the first year so as freshmen, so we usually get them as sophomores. James: Got it. So coming back to the demand side of it for student housing. I'm just trying to understand but I lost my train of thought here. I mean, for example, let's say the price, in terms of rent, I mean the rent is much higher compared to the normal workforce housing. Do you think that's a benefit as well?  Jeff: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And the rent is higher than we get more benefit from the additional rent than it costs us on any additional maintenance expenses. So there is a higher cost benefit that we do get from the student housing. So that's one of the things we like. The other thing that we do like also about the student housing is it is fairly recession-resilient and you know, we all know that we're at a high point in our market right now, we don't quite know what's going on, as far as where we're going to be in the economy. And student housing, historically, has done very well during down markets and that's something also that I look at when I look at properties. How well did it do during the last recession and to see how far down it dipped. And typically you find that student housing and as well as self-storage typically do well in those markets. And so that's another reason why we like looking at those deals.  James: Well, yeah, I mean the rationale is people go to school when the economy is downturn right? Jeff: That's part of it. And the other thing is parents are going to try to get their kids into college as soon as they get out of high school because if they lose them to the workforce for a year or two, it's going to be really tough getting them back in. So if a parent is going to be paying for their kid, they are going to find a way to do it. Otherwise, they may not get them in the college later on.  James: Got it. So, in terms of value-add and I'm sure you are trying to make your community, in terms of student housing much better than other communities. So is there one of the value-adds that you do in your community that you think, you know, you will be able to command much higher rent and much higher occupancy? Jeff: Well, the one we haven't really done is the bed to bath parity. And as I mentioned the person that broke a 4 2 into a 2 1 that was a value-add because as I said, the students prefer not to share. If you could add another bathroom, so you've got 2-2 even if it's a small little bathroom, you know, or just a makeup area with a sink that's of great value because the students now don't like to share the bathrooms.  In Ohio, I've got some 4-4s, as well as some 4-2s but they love having their own private bathroom. In Arizona is all 5-2s - five bedrooms, two baths. That's not as desirable. If I could put in some other baths, I would probably you know, make people happy but that's well expensive. That's not a real cost-effective way of doing it. But also in the Georgia property, we put Wi-Fi throughout the property. So essentially, anywhere they get on the campus or on the property they've got the Wi-Fi. So that was definitely a value-add that we put into it. James:  What about other things like study rooms or the Library, the community? Jeff: We just redid our office and we did put in a workspace. James: A workspace, a business center.  Jeff: Yeah a business center. Exactly. We did put in a business center where they could come in and print if they need to print documents because a lot of people, a lot of the kids have their tablets or their laptops or their phones or whatever, but they may not even have printers these days. And I guess a lot of the stuff they submit right online in a PDF to their teacher whatever but we did create the business center so they could come in and print stuff out if they need to. And also have a scanner where they can scan their documents.  The other thing that we were looking at but we may leave for the next owner because we are selling this property, is a picnic area. We haven't built that yet; put a picnic area with some barbecues and that kind of stuff but that's the last phase of what we've been trying to do on this property. The main thing on this property is, the students have loved it, just fixing it up so it's much more livable. It was pretty disgusting when we got there. I mean it was a nasty place and that's why it was 30% occupied. And now, we've got the premium property in the market.  James: Yeah. I mean, there you go. I mean, value-add in terms of managing it. So people love that. Jeff: And then the other thing that we did on this particular property is we got a relationship with the school. We went on campus and talk to all the coaches and told them we wanted them to send their athletes over to the property. And at first, well, the track coach went and looked at us like we were from Mars and said, "Why would I want to send my kids over there?" And then we invited him to come over and look at the property to see what we have done. And now we've got a bunch of athletes over there now after they've seen the improvements we've done.  We also have participated as a sponsor with the athletic department where we give them a donation every year and we've been able to get an advertisement spot on their Jumbotron during all home basketball and football games and so we've been putting our advertisement there. That's why we're essentially 100% with waiting lists on the property. You know, we got a relationship with them, we went and communicated with the police chief and the mayor. The mayor actually came out to our open house wearing one of our t-shirts, the mayor of the city. So we got really involved with the community and it's a small market but we did get involved with that and all of that essentially added value. As I said, we've got a waiting list now, we can raise rents. The main thing that we were emphasizing throughout this two-year hold, we've only had it for a little over two years, was getting the occupancy up. That was the big thing. I wanted the occupancy up, I didn't care about raising rents. Now, we've got the occupancy now, we're going to start raising rents. Or what we're doing is we're actually selling it. So we're leaving it for the next person. The next guy could come in raise rents without having to do anything. They can come in and raise rents without having to do anything just because we've redone this entire property.  James: Awesome, awesome. Very, very, very, very interesting tips on how to get engage in student housing marketing. So what about financing, who gives the financing? Is it still agency loans or is it small Banks or how's that?  Jeff: Well, we'll start off with the Georgia, probably. The Georgia property we paid all cash. At 30% occupied we weren't going to be looking for a lender. Yeah, my Ohio property that was a challenge and it ended up that I went with a privately owned bank. It's not a small bank, it has 36 branches so I wouldn't call it really small but it's privately held and they loan in Kentucky and Ohio, I think. So if anybody's looking for either student housing or lending, they do those two states. They're actually a Kentucky-based lender. The Arizona one was just a regular bridge lender that funded that one and eventually, we'll go out of the bridge into an agency loan.  James: So you think you can get an agency loan on student housing?  Jeff: Yeah. We can get an agency loan. James: Because I know usually when I go to an agency, they usually ask, you know, how many percents are students, how many percents are corporate housing and all that so I'm not sure. Jeff: Yeah, I don't remember if it's Fannie or Freddie that will do student housing. But they do require a certain population. I think it's 15,000 student population, something like that. James: Got it. Oh, really? Okay, that's interesting.  Jeff: Yeah, but I don't remember which one it was but one of them will do agency. James: Yeah, that's awesome. So, let's go back to slightly more personal questions. So do you have any proud moment in your real estate career that you're going to remember for a long time, that you think 'I really, really did something that I'm really, really proud of', do you want to share that?  Jeff: Oh, I could go back to the Georgia property where I had a period that I actually was brought to tears. When we were doing that video that I was talking about that we gave to the school to put on there, our advertisement, I actually went down and did the interviewing of the students myself for that property because I have a background in video. And the stuff that our property management was taking was just horrendous.  I went down there and interviewed the students and I didn't tell them who I was, they didn't know I was one of the owners or the owner. And the last question I asked them was if you had an opportunity to talk to the owner or to let the ownership know, what would you tell them? And some of the answers that I got were just tearjerkers. I mean, I had one girl that said that she was so happy with her new room that she now can actually bring her mom and show her where she lived that she was actually proud of where she was living now. And some of the other students were just saying, how much safer they felt, you know, much nicer environment. We had gotten rid of all the riffraff. We had gotten rid of a lot of people that were not students, but they were just living there and just smoking dope and we had increased the security and we had the police coming by, you know, just to keep things safe. And so just talking to these kids, they're not kids, they are 19- 20-year-old, you know, young adults, but that was one of the most rewarding moments I had. Because here they were, this is a low economic area where most of these students have very disadvantaged upbringing and we were giving them a nice clean safe place to live that they can be proud of.  And they appreciate it much more so than some of the other properties where we may have upper-middle-class people in there that probably don't appreciate what you're doing as much as these guys do. So that was just an absolute, you know, great opportunity to be there with these guys.  James: Yeah. It's very interesting on how we as entrepreneurs and operators change people's lives and it's just so fulfilling when you do that. And for me, It means a lot. Making the money, I mean, this story, you will always remember it. Sometimes you forget about how much money you made in that deal but you will remember how you impacted people's life, which is amazing. Jeff: Yeah, I mean, that's what I think about. I mean certainly we're all going to make money on this deal, you know, a good amount once we sell this but that feeling, you know, I'll have all the time. I mean that was great, you know hearing these guys.  James: So any advice that you want to give for newbies who want to walk your path in multifamily and student housing in general; if they want to be as successful as you? Jeff:  The thing is, find somebody that has walked the walk. You know, it could be a mentor, it could be a formal mentor, it could be somebody that's doing it. If you find somebody in your area or someone you meet up that is successful in whatever it is they're doing, be it multifamily, student housing, you know, senior living whatever; you find somebody else that's successful and find a way of being some kind of service to them. How you can help them out and go to them with that, hey, I would like to help you out. Do something and learn from them. That's the best way to learn anything is to be working with somebody else that's doing it. You know that would be what I would do. I did some formal mentoring in the beginning and that helped me get started. I would have loved to have been working side by side with someone with more experience. As it was, my partner and I were both about at the same level when we started but being around someone that's been there and done that is a great way to start out in this business.  James: Awesome. Awesome. Hey Jeff, we almost there to the end. You want to let our audience know how to reach you?   Jeff: Well, you can email me jeff@synergeticig.com or you could go to my website, which is also www.synergeticig.com  You could also get a hold of me at Bigger Pockets and I'm around on the forms a little bit. James: Yeah, I remember when I was starting in real estate, I used to see you a lot on Bigger Pockets. So it's good. Jeff:  I haven't been on as much lately. I need to start renewing some of that but I was on a lot in the beginning. That got me a lot. I mean it got me on my first podcast so... James: Awesome. Awesome. Well, Jeff, thanks for adding value to our listeners and audience here. I'm sure we learned a lot. I learned a lot as well, in terms of student housing and the nuances of how to add value in student housing and how to operate and at least look at the deal. And so it was very good to have you here, and that's it. Thank you very much and talk to you soon.  Jeff: Thank you.

James: Hey audience, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth Podcast. Achieve Wealth Podcast, talks to and interviews, a lot of commercial real estate operators and focusing on a lot of our discussion about value-add real estate investing. Today, I have Neal Bower. Neal Bower is from Grow Capitas Commercial Real Estate Investment Company. He negotiates [00:32unintelligible] and acquires commercial real estate properties across the US. He has almost 400 investors right now. A total portfolio size of 1800 units, in which, like around 1400 is multifamily and another 400 student housing. And I would like to welcome, Neal. Hey, Neal, welcome to the show. Neal: Thanks for having me on the show. James. Very excited to be here. James: Good. So, Neil, he has been on a lot of podcasts and you know, a lot of discussion goes around the data collection and experiments that you do in your asset management and in terms of your operation and just finding the right cities, right? [01:14unintelligible] and also operation leasing. So there's a lot of data that's being collected. Right. So we can go to that in a short while. My question to you, Neal, in the first place, why did you start collecting all this data? Neal: Well, I started collecting the data because I screwed up big time. So I started my real estate career in reverse. I mean, most people will start with a single family rental, right? I was a technologist and I got a chance to actually build campuses from scratch. My boss, you know, helped me. He was the CEO of the company, I was the chief operations officer. This was a technology education company and we were growing so much that we decided we were not going to rent offices from somebody, we would build our own campuses. And so that project of building that campus was insanely complicated because, I mean, I hadn't even built a single-family home. Here I am, building a 27,000 square foot campus that's mixed use. It's got classrooms, administrative areas, and restrooms and I had to learn everything from, you know, egress and fire codes. And you know, doors that lock when there's a fire and you know, ceiling heights, air conditioning, cooling, heating, and 500 other things related to that. So it was a trial by fire. I learned very quickly and did that in 2006 and so 2003 then again in 2006 and got very confident about real estate. I think in my mind, I got overconfident and so I went and bought 10 single family homes in California, I timed them correctly due to no credit of my own. It was just, you know, 2008, 2009 and got crazy confidence. I thought I knew it all. I mean that the fact was I knew nothing and I didn't understand that. And so I went to Chicago and bought 10 triplexes and I screwed up really big time. I made massive mistakes. None of those 10 properties really ever made any money and I realized just how little I knew and I start because of that disaster, which basically was a million and a half that got tied up for five years with no returns in the middle of one of the greatest, you know, gain markets of all time, I realized that I needed to learn more. So I started collecting data about why those units never made any money. And what it came down to is that I was spending too much time looking at the rents and looking at the units themselves and not spending enough time looking at the area quality. The quality of the tenant base, the demographics of the area, the income levels, job road levels, the population growth. All of these demographics are mega factors that affect every single thing that we do. And they affect them in a way that's very difficult for us to ascertain. It's almost like you're being carried along on a boat that's going somewhere at 50 miles an hour, but you cannot see outside the boat, right? That is a situation that is the reality of what is happening. And so I started doing a lot of research and data collection. And the more I collected data, the more I realize how powerful it was if I could go beyond data collection to doing data analysis and applying the analysis from one city to another, applying these analyses from one neighborhood to another, from one state to another. And the more I did it, the better I got at it. And so I decided to do more and more and more of it. And that's how my journey started. James: Yeah. I think demographic analysis has been missed by a lot of gurus out there who are teaching real estate investing, especially even on the multifamily side, right? People are just looking at numbers right now and I think commercial real estate consists of two things and what is the user and the space, right? So and we are missing out the demographic side of it, which shows that the demand and I think that's what you're talking about in terms of demographic and also what is the submarket demand, right? What is changing over there? How is the crime rate, who is staying there, what is the renter profile, right? What's the percentage of renters versus owners? It's just not many people know how to analyze that and that's a very important factor. Neal: They don't even look at it. I mean, keep in mind a neighborhood that has 30% homeowners and 70% renters is very different. Both good and bad from one that has 70% homeowners, 30% renters, right? So these things matter so much that if you ignore them, then if you think that you're in control, that is an illusion. That is an absolute illusion because those things are really driving either your profit or your lack thereof. That's really what's driving things, right? And so one example is, I mean, I teach a course, it's called Real Focus. It's about the power of demographics and how to apply them to create profit. And I teach it Live to about 4,000 people a year. And I teach it online, to another 4,000 people so there are about 8,000 people that take that course. And one of the examples that I like to give people is this, one of the most common statements, in fact, it might be the most common statement of all in real estate is that real estate is local, right? So you hear that all the time, real estate is local. Well, actually real estate is not local. James, real estate is hyper-local. So one of the cities that I use in my examples when I'm doing demographics labs for students is I talk about Columbus, Ohio. Columbus is a good city to invest in, right? So doing really well, population growth, job growth, income growth, all kinds of good things are happening there. So in Columbus, there is a small neighborhood that has an average median household income of $183,000 right? That is not an A that is like an A++. So you couldn't really go much higher than that unless you're in the San Francisco Bay area, you couldn't get much higher than 183,000, no. Well, the point is that 500 yards away from this neighborhood is another neighborhood where the median household income is not 183,000 it's not even 18,000, it's 6,000. 500 yards between the richest neighborhood in Columbus, I think it's the second richest actually, and the poorest neighborhood in Columbus, that's how hyperlocal real estate is. And if you don't understand how much that impacts you, obviously in this $6,000 income area, that's a condemned area, no one there pays any rent. Everyone lives there for free in abandoned buildings to this underneath $83,000 area where there's absolutely no cash flow, right? Because the income levels there are very high, there's really nothing available for sale. Everything's taken, everyone there is rich, you know, single family homes that you know, probably are like 1 million bucks. The differences there are staggering. And that 500 yards shows you how much you're missing if you don't understand how demographics drive everything. James: So I mean, I definitely agree with you because I've seen deals in the hottest market in the country and people just talk about the city, right? But they don't talk about the submarket itself or the particular location, right? So how would you go about defining the boundaries of where you want to define the demand for a specific deal? Neal: You know, that's a very interesting question and what you're really talking about is, you know, where does the neighborhood stop? Where does the neighborhood end? So you could say something like half a mile from me is a Whole Foods and next to it is a Starbucks, therefore I'm in the best area. But the reality of the situation is half a mile is also a very long distance. It's a very short distance and it's a very long distance. Remember 183,000 to 6,000, right? That was half a mile. So what really could be the case? Is that right where that Whole Foods is, a hundred yards beyond that, there's a street, maybe it's a railway line, maybe it's a freeway, maybe it's just a regular street and everything beyond that is a different neighborhood, right? Different quality of neighborhood. So you can't really compare this neighborhood to the Whole Foods and Starbucks side. And maybe, just maybe that neighborhood is only half a mile wide and right where your property is, that street actually is another neighborhood, even lower class. So it's very common for people to say half a mile from me is Whole Foods. But actually, they are not in the Whole Foods neighborhood. They're not even in the neighborhood next to Whole Foods, which is lower grade, they're in a third lower neighborhood themselves, like two grades lower now. And that's what everyone has to figure out if you're looking to do syndications or if you're looking to invest in projects. How do you figure these things out there? There are many ways to figure them out, to figure out where neighborhoods start and where neighborhoods end. I use paid tools, so we'll talk about those and I'll also give you some free tools. Neighborhood Scout is the best neighborhood tool I've seen. I've seen many of them, but neighborhoodscout.com allows me to do two things. It allows me to basically plug in an address so it could be a 200 unit property, I plug in the address, I basically take, pull out a report and it shows me the neighborhood and it also shows me the micro-neighborhood. Now there's a difference between those two, right? The neighborhood itself is very powerful because it'll tell, you know, income levels, crime levels, you know, degree-granting levels, is it walkable? It'll tell you an insanely large amount of extremely useful and immediately actionable information. But the micro-neighborhood part is even more powerful. So you'll see a map and on the map, you'll see the neighborhood, right? You can clearly see what roads are part of this neighborhood, where does the neighborhood start, where does it end? Does it go all the way to that Starbucks, does it not go all the way? But then, inside of that map, you'll see a yellow dotted line, which will show you a micro-neighborhood, and the property that you just plugged in, the address is always inside that yellow. And what neighborhood scout is trying to tell you is, okay, the greater neighborhood, maybe it's a mile by a mile, right? That's the typical size for a neighborhood. You know, one mile by one mile is this, and then your property is part of a micro-neighborhood inside of that. And how does it figure that out? What it does is, it looks at your property, let's say it's a single family home and it looks at the home opposite it and says, are these comparable? Okay, yes, they are. Then it goes another block, are these comparable? Yes. Are these comparable? Yes. Are these comparable? No. This is a completely different kind of unit. So it says, okay, those units are really not inside your micro-neighborhood. Something changes there. Something's different. Maybe they're really ghetto or maybe they're really brand new. And so the neighborhood quality changes right at this line. So that dotted yellow line is very important to me because the moment I see that dotted yellow line, I put it on one of my monitors and on the second monitor, I bring up Google and I go switch into street view and I drive around the edges of that yellow dotted line because I'm driving around the outside edges of the neighborhood that I'm investing in. So that gives me a feeling about that neighborhood. And then I'd drive the insights of the neighborhood, it's a micro-neighborhood, so you can on Google, I can basically drive it in about 15-20 minutes. It gives me a really good idea of what's going on in that neighborhood. Obviously, boots on the ground are better, I get that. But at this point, I've just received this property and I want to make a decision on whether I even want to, you know, spend any time on the property and this gives me that information. And Neighborhood Scout is very inexpensive. I think you can even get like Neighborhood Scout for 39 bucks a month and you get 10 reports out of that. So essentially for $4, less than a cup of coffee at Starbucks, you're going to learn an astonishing amount about this neighborhood. James: But I mean, end of the day, we want to get rent comps and so let's say the property they're looking at is within that yellow dotted line but there's not a rent comp and now you have to go out of that yellow dotted line, you would you look at your rent comp, how would you compare the rent comp that point of time? Because it's two different demographics. Neal: It definitely is, right? So there's an art and a science to the rent comps. Some of your rent comps will be inside the dotted line so there'll be good and some of them will be outside the dotted line. I think it's still useful because it's telling you where's your micro-neighborhood and where's your neighborhood? But normally you'll find that the vast majority of the time, the comps from the broker are not inside the yellow line and they're not inside the neighborhood. James: They are in one-mile circle radius. Neal: Exactly. And so people are like, well this is only a mile away; are you kidding me? I mean, in San Jose we have areas where the average home value is $1 million and half a mile away, the average home value is $400,000 right? And those are bad areas like really high crime areas. So everything can change in a mile. And I think what this neighborhood scout does is it allows you to basically firstly figure out if you should even be using that rent comp, right? So it might only be three-quarters of a mile away but Neighborhoods Scout shows you that your neighborhood, your property, the one that you're looking at, is actually just at the end of that neighborhood. So that neighborhood is ending right next to your property and then this is three-quarters of a mile away in a completely different sort of neighborhoods so you shouldn't go in that direction looking at rent comps. But another rent comp that the broker provides, it may not be in the neighborhood, but it's on the edge of that neighborhood, it's still only three-quarters of a mile away. But that one makes more sense because your neighborhood ends right next to that comp. So that comp from the broker actually makes more sense. I'm not saying that every comp from a broker is fictional, that's not true. A lot of brokers work hard on the comps. All I'm telling you is that out of five comps that a broker will give you, truly two or three are your neighborhood's comps. And this tool will show you which ones to pick. And then there's going to be a couple that are going to be, geographically speaking, still be in that one-mile radius, but they have nothing to do with your neighborhood and that this tool will allow you to basically ignore them. And then on top of that, obviously there's rent comp tools, there's you know, tools like Rentometer and a number of others. That four a five or 10 you know, dollar report. There's another one, for the moment, you know, also starts with the word rent. There are these tools where you paid $14. I remember paying $14 for this report, rent something and it gives me a report that is specifically about a single family and multifamily rents, right? Nothing to do with anything else, not demographics, simply about rents. And it gives me all kinds of rent criteria, you know, it gives me occupancy levels. Now I'm paying another 14 bucks and I've got rental information for my area, right? It's not giving me comps, it's basically explaining the per square foot rent. It's explaining how many units in my neighborhoods are one bed, two bed, three bed, those sorts of things so that I understand what the unit mix in that area is and if it's a good unit mix. So now I've spent $18 but I've gotten a huge amount of information. And what I find is people are unwilling to spend these $18 right? And syndicators are unwilling to spend these $18 and here's my message to you, right? As a syndicator, you only make money if your clients make money because they usually have a pref, right? So they're going to make money first and then you have to make money. You realize that on a 300 unit property if it does well, you can make $1 million or even 2 million and if it does really, really poorly, you make $0 million so you're paid less than the janitor that cleans that property. And it might be that the only difference and I know this is best case scenario, but it might be that the only difference between that 2 million bucks and not even making the janitor's salary, it might be those $18. Because you forgot that part. You look at everything else in the property and you fell in love with it and it had a beautiful pool and it had a beautiful clubhouse and it had a beautiful this and a beautiful that but you forgot to look at the demographics. Because one of the things I can tell you is some of the worst properties have the best looking clubhouses, right? So don't look at a damn clubhouse because they made it that good looking because they want to sell the fricking property to you and get out. James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean demographic analysis and in some markets like what we're discussing right now, it's very, very micro. And how do you really decide the deal has an upside in terms of rent, that's why we look for in a value-add deal. Unless you're not buying value-add deal, you just want cash flow. Neal: Well, I think more and more of those deals, I mean more and more of the value adds are becoming cashflow. I mean, let's be honest here, James, nobody that I know of, no syndicator that I know of is able to drive up rents as much today as they were two years ago and certainly not as much as they were four years ago. So I think that true value add is becoming less and less available. Even the deals that are a full value add where we say, okay, we're upgrading 80% of the units, I get that, that technically speaking, if you're upgrading 80% of the units, that's a full value add. But I would challenge whether 80% of those units would receive $150-200 rent bumps. Some will, some won't. I mean the market is changing, the environment is changing. There's only a certain number of people in that neighborhood that can afford to pay that higher rent. And as you rehab more and more and more of the properties in that neighborhood, it becomes more and more and more difficult to achieve those rent bumps. So I think more and more people are doing light value add. At least that's where I'm seeing the industry moving to. James: Oh No. Even myself, I moved from deep value add two years ago to lighter. I mean, I still do value add, but it's no more the deep value add I used to do and just because I'm doing more agency loan nowadays, no more bridge loans19:47inaudible] Neal: I think that's really wise because we have to be cognizant of where we are in the cycle. And so I think you're doing the right approach because a lot of these deeper value add projects, there's another name for them and that is they're higher risk. James: And you also pay a premium for it, right? Neal: Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. James: Nowadays, the sellers and brokers, you know, you're basically overbidding the price up and you're basically taking the value away by paying more. Neal: Unfortunately that's the case. I mean, our company right now has three rules. Number one, everyone is overpaying. Number two, everything we buy, we've overpaid. And number three, if you don't find new ways of adding value to the property after we buy it, we weren't at our performance. These are our three fundamental rules today in everything that we do. And none of these rules existed two years ago. James: Got it. So coming back to the submarket analysis because I think you have talked about a lot of CT level analysis in lots of other podcasts so I don't want to repeat that again here. Coming to sub-market analysis, so let's say you're trying to prospect a market, right? So let's say I know you like Boise, Idaho, right? That's the top market that is. So let's say now you have Boise, Idaho, how do you go about prospecting within this city, right? How do you look at whether the deal, because the cap rate in the southern part of the city may be different in a certain part of the city, right? So how do you go about prospecting or do you just get the deal and start going? Neal: The true answer is that you know, several years ago I didn't have the kind of broker and partner operator relationships that I have today. My initial approach was to use a tool like city-data. I use a number of different tools, but neighborhood scout is my favorite, neighborhood level tool, city data, plus local market monitor, plus housing alerts, these three are my favorite city level tools. And then, of course, there's Costar. Costar is not just a demographics tool, obviously. Costar has a huge number of other benefits. The biggest benefit of Costar is supply. It understands incoming supply in the market, which as far as I know, no other demographic tools understand. Simply because Costar has these 50 Prius cars that drive around 50 US Metros on a daily basis trying to figure out all new construction that's going on and totaling it up and trying to figure out if demand is in excess of supply. And in many great neighborhoods, really good neighborhoods, demand is often not in excess of supply.That's because the neighborhood is so great that people are building 3000 units in a two-mile radius of you, which means that everything might be hunky dory now, but two years from now you'll be in trouble. So I don't have a cheap answer to give you when it comes to neighborhoods supply levels, really, Costar is the best option to look at supply and make sure that you don't end up in a market where you'll have 3000 brand new units, you know, delivering and they'll have, you know, two months off as concessions and basically tank your rents for a year. So that's my feedback on supply. Now away from supply, looking at demographic trends, you can do that analysis on a tool called city-data.com. So when I look at city-data, there's a map on city-data so you plug in the city. So it could be Houston, could be Columbus, could be whatever city you're in; it works better on midsize and large-sized cities. Doesn't work well on like a really teeny tiny city like Saint George. You're not going to get as much value out of that too. So let's say you're in Houston, right? So go look at, you know, scroll down, you'll see this very nice blue colored map of Houston and you notice something very unique. This is something I haven't seen in any free tools. That map of Houston is already broken up into bits. And you'll notice that some of the bits are really tiny, like half a mile by half a mile and some of the bits are big, two miles by two miles, three miles by three miles. And what city data is telling you is that that tiny little bit, everything inside that resembled everything else inside there, but that big one that's next to it, the two mile by two mile, once again, the same principle applied, everything inside of that two mile radius resembled everything else. That's why some of these neighborhoods are tiny, some are mid-size, some are large size. So what you're really looking at in that map are the neighborhoods in that particular city. Right? And if you click on any one of those little tiles, a box will pop up and that box will give you information specifically about that neighborhood. And there are five metrics in that box that I like to use. Now keep in mind if you pay for neighborhood scout for that particular address, you'll see more information than this, but obviously you're paying for that. If you want something for free here it is. That box, the first thing we want to see in that box is the income level in that micro-neighborhood, remember it might be like 400 yards by 400 yards. You want the income level, the median household income level in that neighborhood, you want it to be above $40,000, 38 is still okay in some of the Midwest states, but what I find is when you're down to 35 it doesn't matter where in the US you are, you're going to have delinquency trouble. So the median household income of 38,000 is the minimum acceptable level for multifamily projects. Obviously, this number has to be higher if you happen to be in San Francisco, it has to be higher if you're in New York. So I'm going to basically say the rule doesn't, that 38K number is really for markets that cashflow, right? So Texas markets, Florida markets, you know, maybe not Miami, but the rest of the Florida markets, that cashflow, maybe not central Austin. So understand what I mean by cashflowing markets. Here's what you'll see at 38K; when that number, the median household income in that box, when it starts going below 38 K, your delinquency levels start rising. And the true killer of profit is not occupancy. The true killer of profit is churn. And churn is tied to delinquency. Delinquent tenants, some of them do care about their credit, and so they just simply move out. They just leave a key and move out and they basically say, yep, you know, I'm going to skip and let's see if this guy's going to chase me. Because they know 90% of the time, it's not worth your while to chase them and try and get that money. You just move on. You rent out your unit, you move on with your life. And these skips and the delinquency connected with them, the repainting, the time that it takes, the marketing costs, the effort, the people time, kills your profit. And what I found is by the time you dropped from $38,000 in median household income to 30, the property and the project, for the most part, has become viable. I do not know of any syndicators that can make a profit in a neighborhood that is under $30,000. I've made that mistake myself. I haven't been able to make money. So to me, that first number that is an absolute is, go into a neighborhood that has the income to support what you are trying to do. Keep in mind, you're trying to raise rents, right? So even 38 is kind of borderline, right? I tend to basically use 40,000 as my minimum number. I have properties that are at 42 44 46; if you're in the fifties you're doing really well. If you're in the 60s then your property is getting closer to a 'B' and by the time it hits $70,000, you are in a 'B' area. So a 'C' area, one of the definitions, my favorite definition of 'C' area is 40 to 70,000 income, right? And a 'D' area is $30,000 and below. So 'C' minus is 40 to 30. And obviously, these are metrics I made up myself. You could successfully come to me and argue, no. In my area a C minus is not 40 to 30, it's 35 to 25 I'll just say, okay, that's fine. These are rules of thumbs that appear to work in the vast majority of the United States that people are investing. It may not work in your area, no argument, but I think that within the bounds of them being rules of thumbs, they do work really well because they allow me to understand the quality of an area. James: Got it. Neal: There are states that have lower delinquency. Utah for example, for cultural reasons, you can go a little bit lower than that simply because 10% of their income is going to the church, right? Everybody in Utah, very religious people, they contribute 10% of the church, which means that when they do get in trouble the church helps them out, right? So many times in Utah you can have lower delinquency even in markets that are under 35K. So that's a cultural issue, a cultural benefit that they have, but it doesn't necessarily apply to most parts of the US. So that's the first thing that comes up in that box. Remember, we're in city-data, we're looking at the blue map. We're looking at the tiles and we're clicking on them in a black box comes up. Well, the first thing there was income. The second thing that comes up on that box is the poverty level, right? It's very much tied back to the income. And poverty level, you want to be below 15% as much as possible. If you can be below 10%, you're going to do really well, but 15% I think is acceptable. And if you don't mind taking more risk, if you're in a noose indicator and you really need to get going, then maybe 20, but I can tell you if that number is 30, you can't make money. It doesn't matter how high the rents are. It doesn't matter how many units have been bumped up by the previous guy and they have $200 in rent bumps and 300 and all that wonderful stuff, it doesn't matter. At 30% poverty levels, you cannot get 12 consecutive months of rent from your tenants. James: So do recommend, I mean, I know that's the job of the active sponsor when they find deals, right? So even the passive investors should go and look at deals... Neal: Why not? Everything I told you, if you, you know, take this podcast and it's going to be on James' website, you can go to Florida or whenever the heck you feel like. Right? So it shouldn't take you as a passive investor more than 10 minutes, the rule still applies. And keep in mind that a lot of class 'C's are going to be borderline on this so don't expect that good syndicators are really buying properties at 5% poverty levels. 5% is not a good deal; at 5%, that's a class A area. And your syndicators not going to make you any money, so there's no problem with it being borderline. You just don't want it to be too far from these numbers that I'm giving. James: Correct. Correct. So let's say you get a deal today on the neighborhood that meets all your criteria, right? Poverty level, household income and all that, so how would you go about underwriting that deal? What's the first thing that you will look at? Neal: Well, I look at the numbers, the same demographics numbers to determine what my delinquency numbers are going to be. Because I find that I can raise a property's occupancy so there are certain levers that I have that are typical syndicator doesn't have. Syndicators don't have marketing teams, right? Syndicators basically have a property manager. That property manager might be good at marketing or bad at marketing. They're typically bad but they're never excellent, right? So we basically decided early on that that extra value add that we have to add in that no one else is adding in, is marketing. And by marketing, I don't mean investor marketing, I mean tenant marketing. So for every property that we have, we're actually adding more leads on top of what the property manager is generating. For some properties, it's 30% more than they're generating; in other properties, it's three times more than they're generating. So they're generating a thousand leads a year, we're generating 3000 leads a year and giving those leads to them. So I can basically move occupancy numbers up, you know, and I'm very confident about those. So I go back to delinquency. So I look at the delinquency of that particular area. Obviously, Costar gives you delinquency numbers, so that's very good, useful information to have for that particular neighborhood. The other thing that I like to do is, and this is not always available, is you can get bank statements from friendly sellers. Not every seller gives it to you, but some do. And one of the nice things about the bank statements is that some property managers, previous property managers have basically put all the money in like in one check. But most of them actually put the money in like every few days. So they collect the checks and then they go to the bank every day or every other day and they put the checks in. So to understand what the quality of the tenant basis and what they're capable of absorbing in terms of rent hikes, simply look at the checks to see how much of the money is coming in in the first five days, how much of it is coming in the next five days, how much of it is coming in the five days after that? Then the five days after that, then the five days after that. They might be saying that my delinquency rate is 2% but what if their delinquency rate was 25% on the 15th of the month? Well, that area, that kind of area where you still have 25 30% of the rent hasn't come in on the 15th, you have to be careful about not being over bullish on how much you can really raise the rents. There's a limit in that market, right? It may not be $200, it might be $120 that you can raise. And accordingly, you want to also cut down on your rehab budget. Because your rehab budget can be 6,000, it can be 8,000 give me 12,000 but in an area where you know, overall income levels are low, let's say 38,000, and you can see that 20 30% of their tenants don't even pay until the 15th, I'm not sure there's any benefit to doing a $12,000 per unit rehab. I'm not even sure you want to do an $8,000 per unit rehab. I think six or four might be better. Rehabbing does have benefits. The velocity at which your lease increases tenants, like the newer units, but beyond a certain level, it's not that they don't like the units, of course, they love it, they're just not able to pay for it. And when you don't want to end up in a situation where the tenants, all of your new tenants that have come in, those are the guys that are becoming delinquent because really their capability was to get $850 a month units, but they're all in the thousand dollar upgraded units. And so now, all of your upgraded units are the ones that have very high delinquency so when I'm underwriting, those are the sort of things I'm looking at. James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, it's very interesting to see delinquency and you say Costar has the delinquency data? Neal: Costar has neighborhood level delinquency data. Yeah, some market levels. So you can basically go in. That very long report, that's like 86 pages, it has averaged delinquency for a particular market. I'm not sure how they get it. No, I have no idea. But what's nice is they also have expense data, right? So they have expense data. Obviously, you talk to property managers about expense data as well but Costar gives you, you know, kind of the average expense for the submarket, the average payroll for that particular submarket. I find that people trying to beat the average payroll by 20%, it's wishful thinking. James: Yeah. How do you differentiate delinquency between the property management's skill versus real delinquency for the area? Because it could be just the property managers are not doing a good job, right? Neal: I think so. So one of the services that we provide on in properties that have higher delinquency, sometimes we have operating partners that don't want to do it but most of the time we do it is we make my staff, our staff, not the property management staff, will make delinquency calls on the sixth or seven. So we don't do it all the time, we don't want to do it. But let's say the property has consistent delinquency problems, consistent; one of the ways to figure out the answer to your question is, is this a tenant problem? Is this a PM problem? Hire somebody, give them a script, have them call every tenant that is not showing as having paid by the sixth of the month, make three phone calls, actually make two phone calls and two text messages on the sixth and the seventh. Repeat the process on the 10th and the 11th. If you do that for three straight months and your delinquency is still high, it's not a property manager problem. James: Well, you find that out after the fact, after you bought the property. Is there any way to find before you buy? Neal: Well, other than the demographics information I gave you? No, not really because the truth is that it could still be a tenant-based problem. But it could be that the previous owner was self-managing the property and let a bunch of deadbeats that should not have been in there. That in my mind is a management issue but not a property manager issue and that's also an opportunity. You bought this property because you think rents can be at 1100 with low delinquency. Right now, they're at 900 with high delinquency. Maybe the guy just let in a bunch of deadbeats so you can ask for credit reports of the last 25 people that have been put in, what was the actual credit report? Some owners will give it to you, some won't. If they're not giving it to you, you have to question yourself why that is the case? Was he just basically trying to just fill up the property? And, in that case, it's not such a bad thing. You just have to know that when you go in, you're going to have a lot of evictions to deal with. But in that case, it's not a tenant base problem. It's not a property management problem. It's a previous owner problem and you are going to benefit once you churn through all those bad tenants, you're going to have four years of good tenants in your property so you can still hit your performer. You just need more maintenance budget, you need more operating budget and you need your investors to be a little bit more patients because your first 12 months are going to be very rocky. James: Yeah, absolutely. I'm sure you've seen a lot of financials when you're underwriting a deal, right? So is there any dirty secrets by sellers that you have found from the financials or when you walk the unit and see, aah, they are tweaking these numbers here to make the property more appealing to the buyer? Neal: I mean, everybody has their own stories about these financials, right? So the one that I find that is fairly common is that you're going into a property, you want to be able to tell during your due diligence, don't do this during their contract negotiation. But during your due diligence, you basically call them and say, hey, we'd like to talk to a bunch of your tenants. And you randomly, always pick a bunch of tenants to talk with and make sure that there's nothing shady about their rent. So you have a tenant that's at $900 and everybody else is at 800, let's pick that tenant and let's talk with him. Let's make sure that there isn't some side deal where that tenant actually is paying 900 bucks and is being reimbursed $200 in cash. James: Has that happened? Neal: that has happened; not in a 250 unit type property, but in a 70/80 unit property. Basically, what had happened was all the new tenants that had started in the last four months, were all receiving cash back, right? I think there were 12 tenants and between them, $2,400 a month of artificial rents were created, which is $2,400 a month is $30,000 a year, $30,000 a year at six cap is basically $480,000. So that $480,000 for the seller was created by him negotiating direct deals with those 10 people and giving them $200 kickbacks. So his cost was 2,400 a month for three months and his profit was 500. James: Wow. I never heard that. That's really sneaky. Neal: Very sneaky. But you think about how much of an incentive that guy has to do it, right? Technically it's not illegal, by the way. James: It's not illegal? Neal: It's not illegal. He has to disclose it to you that there's a side arrangement, but you can't actually send somebody to jail for this. I mean, you can't sue them and win, in my opinion. James: You can't say it's a fraud? Neal: I think you can. I think that that's going to be fought over in court. In my mind, it's something that you should basically, in due diligence, if you look at higher numbers, make sure you talk with those tenants. It doesn't take that much time; during due diligence, you're at the property for multiple days. Right? Why not have conversations with four or five people and make sure everything's above board. Say, hey, we were looking to buy this property and just checking your rental contract and it shows $900 a month, is that correct? And if there's anything shady, that guy is not going to fall on his sword for the previous seller. James: Yeah. I mean, I've done all the due diligence for my properties. I never talked to the tenants. Do they allow to talk to the tenants when you are doing? Neal: Usually they do. I mean, obviously, they won't allow you to talk to a hundred tenants, but if you randomly pick three or four, they do. It's just not something that people ask for commonly, but there's no reason for them to have an objection. So that's one that I've seen commonly. The other one that I've seen commonly is that everything that you're looking at is actually coming out of the property management software, not from the bank statements. So you look at the property management software and it says $111,000 in monthly rents. But when you look in the bank, it's just 88. So what they're doing is basically they're not allocating for bad debt properly. And they're saying, oh, I'm sorry, this the way that our property management, Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah software works. What they're trying to basically say is, Oh, I'm sorry you caught us, but we're going to try and explain it away as some idiosyncrasy of the way our property management software works. But you know, yeah, we didn't actually make 111 that month, we only made 88,000. So I think reconciling bank statements to what the property management software says, is very useful. They may not be trying to screw you over or anything so the difference may not be 88 to 111; it might be 88 to 91 but it still shows delinquency in that property. James: So have you had any of these cases and you backed out of the contract? Neal: Yeah, I have. James: Okay. It's also tricky nowadays, in the hot market nowadays because people are paying day 1, hot money. Neal: It's very difficult. That's what scares me a lot. I mean, you pay hard money and then you find something where they've tricked you. The only way to get that money back is to sue them. James: Correct. Because people are paying like in a hot market... Neal: Even $200,000. I mean, it's ridiculous. I mean, that tells me that something is wrong. In my mind, there is no conceivable reason why anyone should pay $200,000 hard on day one. This is all frenzy that has been created by brokers and it's a sign of an unbalanced market. There is no reason why that should ever happen. James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean they do have something called early access agreement where you can go and see the rent roll and all that, but you can do a thorough due diligence. Some sellers allow it, but nowadays, even that nowadays they don't allow. Neal: Well, in my mind, James, I mean, if that is their intent, why don't they just say, okay, well we'll go hard on day five. When people want you to go hard on day one, there's no way to tell if they are doing it because they are unethical or simply because they weren't, you know, somebody who has enough skin in the game and enough confidence in his ability to close. The majority of the time, the reason is perfectly legitimate that they want you to close and so they want you to go hard on day one but I don't think that that's the reason 100% of the time or anywhere close to 100% of the time. James: Awesome. Yeah. It's a bit scary when you do day one hot money. So coming back to value-add, I presume all the deals that you're doing is value-add deals, is that right? Not a deep value-add or not completely. Neal: I have some deep value-adds but a lot of them are, you know, standard $6,500 type value-adds. James: So what is the most valuable value-adds that you see? Neal: Oh, it's easy. The single most valuable value-add are USB ports. One in the kitchen and one in the bedroom. So of all value adds, nothing comes close to that. James: Really, especially just because everybody needs a USB. Neal: Because everybody that comes in comments on it, right? So everybody that comes in comments on it and this is one of those universal things where men and women comment on it equally. And the better value add is, you know, these days, the wall plates, right? You get the wall plates with a two USB ports, correct? So if you wanted to really wow people, the new USB Dash C standard, pay $4 extra for one that has two standard USB ports, but the one in the middle is that new USB Dash C. So I think those are incredible, incredible value adds; they give you a hundred X return. James: Awesome. Awesome answer. That's absolutely helpful. So now let's go to a bit more personal side of questions, right? So why do you do what you do? Neal: The truth is I fell into it, right? So this hasn't been a conscious thing. I did technology. I started doing real estate because I was paying 50% in tax. So basically tax avoidance was the primary reason why I fell into real estate. But I think the bigger thing was that on the technology side, when I had W2 income, you know, many years I made more money than I made in real estate but I always felt nervous. It's like when you have $150,000 salary, you're always nervous about your position. Like, I always have to perform, I can never have a bad year, right? Because they might start thinking, well, we could hire two guys for 175 k each and get rid of this guy, Neil. So there was always that nervousness about not being in control of my destiny. And I don't feel that now. It doesn't matter if I have a bad year and I only make a hundred grand, but I still have control of my destiny and always make it up next year. So to me, I think it was less about ownership and more of our control over my destiny. James: Okay. But you will keep on buying deals? I mean, is that what your plan is? I mean, where do you want to stop? So what drives you to bite the next deal Neal: In my mind, what drives me is that I still feel like I'm creating value in each additional project. I'm finding some way to make those projects work. I'm contributing and I'm making investors happy and also, you know, increasing my own net worth. Will I keep doing it? No. I think that truth be told, I mean, I admire people like JC Castille who just love it so much. He says, Neil, I'm going to be doing this for 30 years. And I said, if I know one thing for sure, I mean you're very sure about what you just said JC, I met him recently. I know for sure I won't be doing this in 30 years and I know for sure I may not even be doing it in 10 years. I mean, to me, I think that life is an evolution and I don't mind telling my investors, look, I'm going to do this for five to 10 years and then I'd like to do something else because my career is very diverse. I've done solar education. I've done basically businesses around nursing. I've done high technology; like three different kinds of high technology, staffing, consulting, education services. I've even been a primary investor in a gas station. I'm an entrepreneur and what that means is at some point, I want to create the systems and processes so other people who are smarter than me can continue running the business forward. And so my most coveted title is not founder and it's not CEO, it is chairman. And so the longterm goal is that at some point, I want to switch to doing that. But I would not hesitate to shut down the business if I didn't feel I was adding value. This business only survives when it adds value if it doesn't add value, making it or forcing it to survive makes it a parasite. James: So when you say add value means, add value to your personal life? Neal: Add value to my investors. So by default, I don't say add value to my personal life because if I add value to my investors, the adding value to my personal is automatic. It happens by default, right? So to me, the only kind of add value that we should be looking at is adding value to our investors. And if it doesn't add value, we'll do something else. It doesn't mean I'll go out of real estate. You know, one of the things is I'm a very unusual syndicator in that half of my projects are new construction. And the project that I'm coming out with this week is called The Grid. It's a $30 million student housing project, new construction. And so why? Because as the market shifts and Class C properties become so expensive that everyone's buying six cap on actual or five and a half cap on actual, then in the back of my mind, I'm going, well, you know, I can make a brand new class A for seven cap. I know it's risky during construction, but let's say I get through the construction phase, isn't it less risky? Because at this point, you know, maybe it's not seven cap, maybe six and a half cap, but don't I have a six and a half cap, Class A building? What's the worst that could happen? Do we have a recession after dropped rents? So what? It's still a seven cap building and it's a brand new. That part of it is not going to change if I can't raise my rents. So I look at that and I go, you know, there's this whole business of buying Class C's at five and a half cap is scaring me. James: Yeah. I was talking to a broker the other day. He was trying to get me to buy a 1960s product at six cap. He says Austin is good now. Then I say what about the B class 1980s? Oh, it's like five and a half cap rate here. I'd rather buy the five and a half cap than buy the six cap; doesn't make sense, right? Neal: I agree with you. And honestly, you should not be, you know, between a B and a C, if there's a half gap difference always, by the B. James: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So is there anything that you do in your daily life that you think has contributed to your effectiveness in becoming very successful? Neal: I think structure. I'm a robot that has some human, characteristics and I like being a robot. I am extremely structured, absolutely structured, all the time and I feel that it's difficult for people to tie themselves to structure. That's a very hard thing to do because we feel like we are losing something about ourselves. We feel like we're losing a part of our humanity. What I have found is that it's actually the reverse. I'm very structured. I start my work, I work with an extremely high intensity and then I stop and when I stop, I completely stop. I have nothing to do with work because I make sure that every second of those 11 hours or 10 hours that I work really count. And to me, I think that that makes me have a significantly greater output than some other folks. James: Got It. Got It. Any advice for newbies who wants to start at multifamily? Neal: Yes. Right now be careful. Please understand that while there is no crash on the cards, I don't believe in all this nonsense about, you know, prices going down 20%. People say that they clearly don't understand macroeconomics, but you are buying at the peak. This may be a peak that is sustained for a significant amount of time, due to the fact that basically, it's very difficult for prices to come down because of macro reasons, but you certainly not going to see the kind of all ships rising effect that we have seen in the last five years. You're starting now, please do not apply the past to your present. This is a tough time. It's going to be very hard. If I was starting today in 2019, the 2013 version of me would advise the 2019 version, not to start. That's how frank I have to be. If you're starting that's fine, but I think you should be cautious and be aware of what kind of environment you're in. James: Got it. Got it. Well, Neil, thanks for coming to the show. Can you let the audience and listeners know how do get hold of you and how to find you? Neal: Sure. I think the best way is through education. I'm an educator, I connect with people through education. I have a portal called multifamilyyou.com. We have about 50 webinars that we do every year on multifamilyyou.com. We archive all of them. They're deep dive webinars. They're very different from podcasts because there's a lot of displayed content and tens of thousands of people attend those webinars each year. So that's probably the best way to connect with me. I don't mind people having my direct email address. My email is Neal, that's the Irish spelling, n e a l neal@multifamilyyou.com. So you connect with me. I also connect with people on Facebook. I think about 10,000 people connected with me on Facebook. And then multifamilyyou.com. If you want to learn more about demographics, I have a free course. It's at udemy.com/RealFocus. That course, I think right now has about a thousand people enrolled. So it usually has 1,000-1200 people enrolled at any given point in time. So that's also a completely free course. We don't believe in pitchers, if you're a presenter and would like to present our platform, approach us, but it has to be pitched free. James: Awesome, Neal. Thanks for coming and adding huge value to our audience and listeners, I'm sure everybody would have learned a ton of things today. Thank you. Neal: Thanks so much. Thanks for having me on the show. Bye, James.

James: Yeah listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achiever Wealth Podcast.  Achieve Wealth podcast focuses on commercial real estate investing; across all asset classes. Today I have Kathy Fettke from real wealth network. Hey Kathy, you want to introduce yourself?  Kathy: Hi there, sure. I'm the founder and CEO of Real Wealth Network. We've been around since 2003 actually. And we've been helping people, mainly in high priced markets, find cash flow properties nationwide. And then over the past 10 years or so, we've helped people get into syndication; a lot of our members just wanted totally passive. So we partnered with developers and we build single family homes, one to four units, and then also some apartments and now the opportunity zones, so we're excited about that.  James: Oh, cool. Yeah, Kathy runs one of the top podcasts in the nation and what's the podcast name, Kathy?  Kathy: Real Wealth Show and then I have a news show that's just seven minutes for busy people, but loaded with information; The Real Estate News podcasts.  James: Yeah, I've listened to both real estate news, which I like, because it's pretty short and it just give me the high level things; sometimes we're really just so busy. And I've listened to [01:25 inaudible] So let's go a bit more details into, how do your company or your group helps the investors? Let's start with investors, so are lot of them passive investors or do they still manage the property at all in single family?  Kathy: Well, you know, most of our members are busy Silicon Valley workers or their Hollywood people in the industry, that is pretty unforgiving. Both industries, Hollywood and Silicon Valley, you're working a lot; sometimes people are working 70, 80 hour weeks. Even if you're making a lot of money, what you don't have is a lot of time. So they can't be, managing their own properties or flipping; people who try to flip when they're that busy, it’s just tough to do a good job at it when you've got all these other things. And then to add a family or just trying to be healthy and exercise; there’s only so much you can do. So, we really decided about 15 years ago, both my husband and I decided we wanted to invest where there was cash flow and we couldn't find it in California.  So I had the Real Wealth Show then and Robert Kiyosaki was on it back then and he said, I'll tell you what, I am selling everything I own in California because it's a bubble. This was in 2006 when nobody else could see that; everybody thought it was just going to be this incredible boom forever. And he said, no, no, these loans are going to melt down and he was selling everything and exchanging it for a high cash flow, low cost properties in Texas because that's where the jobs in the population and we're going; so we did that   I talked about it on my show, on the Real Wealth Show, and our listeners wanted to do it; so we said, well, you can use all the team that we set up. You can use the property manager, they're great, and you can use the agent that we use, the contractors; and then we realized, this is really a need; we can make this a business. And that's really what real wealth network became; it's just finding these different resources nationwide to help people find deals that you just couldn't find on your own; and have them managed for you.    James: So is it a fund, or is it like a property, buy property or how does it work?   Kathy: We have both. I mean, for the first five to seven years it was basically brokering. We have a real estate brokerage, helping people sell their California properties and exchange them for really high cash flow.  I had a woman come to me back in 2007, somewhere around then, and she was desperate to retire; she had bought these three properties in Stockton thinking that would be her ticket and they were just a pain; always needing repairs. They were old properties and not very good parts of Stockton. And all the cash flow was just going to repairs, so she wasn't able to retire; her dream of real estate was turning into a nightmare.   And she listened to my show and I said, well look, let's sell these; they were $420,000 each. They rented each for $1,200, not a good deal. So we helped her sell those three properties at the peak and then buy in Texas at basically the beginning of their boom; we got her nine brand new homes in Rockwall, Texas. It was an hour outside of Dallas but we knew a new freeway was coming that would make it just a 20 minute, 30 minute drive to downtown. And she ended up quintupling her cash flow.  She was able to walk in and hand that resignation letter to her boss; she was able to retire. And about 18 months later, the market crashed; the home she sold for $420,000 each, these little dumpy homes, they were worth about $75,000 after. So she saved herself from complete disaster and in fact, her properties in Texas have tripled in value since she bought them. So ever since then, that's really what we do. We help people see; look, you need an asset that's performing, whether there's going to be a market collapse or not; a $420,000 piece of junk in Stockton that rents for $1,200 a month, is not a deal. We've been helping people understand the fundamentals of investing. James: It's so crazy because I think a lot of people thinks that, oh the house price is going up and they're getting richer. Actually, you're not getting richer? It's a dead equity; your equity is trapped in your house.  And I see a lot of people with a lot of money, who buys properties in high class neighborhood where they want to live. Which is completely opposite from how the whole cash flow should be; because the rent doesn't really jump up by that much, compared to your price on the house.  And it's just so crazy, they don't realize it and they keep on buying two or three houses in their neighborhood and they say; I have all these houses. Some people have gotten used to that appreciation play rather than a cash flow play.    Question for you is, I know every market has cycles. So I know from California to Texas in 2008 was an awesome, brilliant move. So what about today? Where would you invest? And where do you think both California and Texas market is?  Kathy: Excuse me.  I didn't mean to cough at the question but it's a big question... So it would appear that today is very similar to 2006; prices have gone up dramatically, in some cases they've doubled in value, tripled in value since rate recession. So people have made a lot of money and they've heard other people have made a lot of money by buying a property and doing nothing with it. So, it's tempting to think that that will continue, that is just not possible. You have to understand the metrics and people can only afford a property that's about three times their income. So if your monthly income is $5,000; you can only afford a property around $1,300 a month with the mortgage and the taxes and insurance.  So, there's only so high prices can go. Prices were very depressed for the past 10 years, they’re not anymore, they're way past their last peak; salaries are not going up as quickly. So to buy a property thinking that you're just going to get a bunch of equity gain,  I think you missed that. However, will there be another housing crash? That's what people want to know, right? My answer is, I don't think so, because in the last 10 years you have had people have to really qualify for a loan. They also got very low interest rates, some as low as 2% over the last 10 years; and values have gone up.  So they're locked into low interest rates, they have equity, salaries are going up. Even if we had a recession and jobs were lost, I don't think people are going to rush to dump their properties, when they're locked into low payments, just so they can pay more in rent; I don't see it happening. Plus 10 years ago there was no Airbnb, you didn't know that you could just rent out half your house, I did. Rich and I actually did that when we were having a tough time back in 2003. We rented out a bunch of rooms in our house to get by; we had to use Craig's list and that was crazy, you never know who you're getting, very different today. And, add to it that households are forming, yet we're not building enough supply. Where anything that we're building, that builders and developers are building, is higher end because permit fees have gone up, labor costs have gone up. You cannot build the same house today for the same price, certainly not for the price that most people own their property; they couldn't rebuild it. I live in Malibu where there are a bunch of fires and people are not able to rebuild their houses for what they had an insurance; so make sure you have really good insurance. So no, I don't think there's going to be a housing crash. There's just not enough supply, there's so much demand. We've had 10 million more renters in the last decade than we have before; we have probably another 10 million over the next decade. There's again, not enough supply in the affordable rang, so even though you're probably not going to see a lot of appreciation over the next 10 years, you're going to see a lot of cash flow.  James: Okay. Just because of the demographic shift, I guess, that you’re seeing in terms of the renters and all of that? Do you think it will continue in Texas? Because you’re looking at it from California; at that time when you bought in Texas, Texas was early part of the whole cycle. I came during the downturn and I didn't really feel there was an economic downturn here.  But now it has gone up so much, do you think that taxes will continue to grow?     Kathy: Well, it is very scary when you look at a chart and you look at the home prices in Dallas, it just goes, whew, and that is scary. But you have to understand that when we were buying in Texas, it was 26% undervalued, so that the houses were so cheap compared to income. So just to bounce back, the most important metric to look at is affordability and what we know is that there's just a massive amount of jobs in the Dallas, Fort Worth region. I don't think prices are ever going to go back to where they were, it’s the new reality there. Will they go up much more? It just depends on salaries and jobs. I certainly don't see any kind of crash or decline there. But we were never buying in Texas for appreciation, we got it and that was wonderful; but that's not why we were buying.    It all comes down to cash flow and there are parts of Dallas where we still think there's opportunity for cash flow and appreciation. But it's getting harder and harder to find, like it's harder and harder to find anywhere. There are still deals, especially in the opportunities zones. These are areas that are going to be gentrified, there may be higher crime, not as good as schools, but a lot of that is going to be changing; there's going to be more jobs coming in because of all the tax incentives. So, whether or not you’re getting those tax incentives, if you invest in those opportunities zone areas, you could see some appreciation along with cash flow.    James: Yeah, opportunities and some new incentive, compared to the 1031 and some other gentrification that's happening. So, you talk about Dallas, what about other markets in Texas, what are the other markets that you're excited?  Kathy: Well, one of the people I follow for my economic advice is John Burns. He does consulting for builders and we have developments all across the country and he's advised us on quite a few of them. He does an economic analysis annually, probably quarterly, he's constantly consulting. And one of the slides he showed recently was where the jobs are going. A lot of my California members of real wealth network say, what about Portland? What about Seattle? And based on the graphs that John Burns shows, that is the area that is having the least job growth in the country. So that should give you the answer you need. In addition to that, you've got all this rent control stuff happening in Portland and Seattle; it's like, no. If you're going to own a rental property, you don't want to be in a place where people hate landlords.   So I would skip the northwest, I'd skipped the west coast entirely, in my opinion, for that reason. Because whenever housing gets expensive, it's on the west coast where they decide it's our fault, when it's not; it's the fault of politicians who don't allow you to build anything, so it's frustrating. But where we're seeing the growth go 100% is the southeast. That's in Florida, Georgia, Texas certainly; these are no income tax or low income tax states. When you've got 10,000 people turning 65 every day, trying to figure out how they're going to retire, they're going to go to areas where they don't have to pay a lot of state tax. So that's one reason, plus the jobs are going, I believe the Orlando area, central Florida area is the fastest growing area in the country at this time. So yeah, we’re all over it, we’re building houses there and we're renovating houses and we're providing lots of done-for-you ,rental properties to our members.  James: So what about Phoenix and Las Vegas? I know that seems to be the last leg of boom, I guess. Because they are the ones who's recovering the last, but it seems to be a lot of people trying to look at that market as well.  Kathy: You know, I always get a little sick to my stomach when I think about Phoenix and Las Vegas because....   James: Positive experience, right?   Kathy: I had the opportunity, we were in contract on two properties before the collapse and we got out of them in time and got our money back. But oh boy, we would have been pretty upset. But no, I'm more upset that I didn't take action after the crash in Phoenix, there were so many foreclosures that just freaked me out, but obviously it would've been good to buy.  So it's hard to buy today when prices have doubled, if not tripled, from when we were able to buy; but at the same time, Las Vegas and Phoenix continue to grow, they will probably continue to grow for a long time. The problem is the cash flow is not quite as good as in some of the other areas in the south east, so I haven't been active in those markets. But if we had a really good team there and they were able to find us good deals and renovate them, and get them rented, and good property management; we'd probably still go in.    The problem with the Las Vegas is you have very low paying jobs, so the rents kind of cap there. But that could change if different kinds of jobs come in, but you've got a lot of people in the hospitality industry, who don't make a lot of money.  James: And also I would say a luxury, it's basically depends on luxury, right? If the economy tanked, nobody is going to go to Las Vegas to spend all their money and that's where the swing will come, I guess.  Kathy: Lots of people are moving there for affordability. My sister just bought her first house; she's 57 and bought her first house. But it’s in the Phoenix area because she could afford it.  They bought it, they rent it out and they hope to retire in it in 10 years. So you're seeing a lot of that type of thing.  James: Okay. Got it, so when you say cash flow, you're talking about single family turnkey cash flow, am I right?  Kathy: For a lot of our members, they want to max out that 10 conventional loans that you can get through Fannie and Freddie.  So even though they might invest in multifamily and other people's deals and syndication, they definitely invest in our syndication. Nothing really compares, in my opinion, to maxing out those Fannie and Freddie loans that you can get at 5%, five and a half percent. Are you kidding? Fixed for 30 years and you could get one to four units. We have a lot of our clients buying four-plexes in Florida and so you can get 40 units with those 10 year loans; and you're locked in at that rate for 30 years. You know rents are going up, I know a lot of people aren't fans of single family, but to me it just makes so much sense.  You can take all that cash flow and pay off the first loan, the second loan, the third loan; You could have all 10 loans paid off from the cash flow in 12 years, so many of our members do that. Then they have 10 properties free and clear, cash flowing. Again, multifamily is great; it's just a different animal. I think having a good mix of both because it's so easy to get in and out; a single family, it can be challenging, I've had massive challenges. We had a 92 unit building in Indiana that had a gas leak, in the middle of the night and the city required everybody to move out. We had to pay, we had an empty building, and we went from fully occupied to empty overnight literally, because of a gas leak.  And then we had to pay these people off to go find a new place, we had to fix; multifamily can have the same problems that a single family can have, only times a hundred.   Don't think that there are no problems, but it's a different animal; there’s different upside, there's different downsides. But, for people starting out,  just getting into some single family rental homes; just single, one to four unit, it's a great way to start to really wrap your hands around it and understand it and lock in those low 30 year fixed rate loans.  James: Yeah, you make a good point.  I'm a multifamily guy but I started in single family. So the cash flow in single families is unbeatable. I usually buy really good deals, so I usually make 30, 40% cash on cash, on single family. I buy by direct marketing and we rent it out. And we have that equity and you have that Fannie Mae loan, you just can't beat it. The biggest problem that we have in our single families is the 10 loan limit. That’s the limit, after that where do I go?  Kathy: That's as far as you can go, unless you both, you and your spouse can qualify; you can each get 10 but yeah, then you're stuck. Then you got to get to commercial, [20:19 inaudible] or something, you’re going to run out of money. But, for people just starting out or if you've got one property in the Silicon Valley that you bought for $400,000 and now it's worth 2 million; you might want to take that and do something else with it.  James: Yeah, correct.  I think the biggest challenge in single families is managing the property. So we were managing it, it takes up a lot of time, especially in the first few years because things are being stabilized. So once you get a renter, which doesn't leave, then everything is cash flow. So, does your company provide turnkey property management for single family?  Kathy: Yes. So what we've done is basically what we did in Texas. We'll go to an area where we think there's a lot of growth, a lot of job growth, a lot of population growth and it's landlord friendly and low taxes; Texas isn't low taxes, but we still have. And there we'll find people, like you said, people who know how to wholesale, they know how to get these deals. They do direct marketing and then they'll maybe look at a hundred deals to find one; but then they'll find that one deal that has a lot of potential. They'll fix it and get a tenant in place, have property management in place and sell it ready-to-go rental, to somebody who's busy and doesn't have the time to do all of that.  But we ask that there's still be some equity in there, it's getting harder and harder to do because prices have gone up and there's so much competition. There are E-buyers everywhere [21:58 inaudible] an E-buyer now; E-buyer meaning that they've raised billions of dollars to buy a house, sight unseen; instantly, instant offer. So, that's making it a little tougher on wholesalers but with that said, we still have boots on the street in 15 different markets that have either really high cash flow and prices are still undervalued; like Detroit and Cleveland, or in areas where there's just massive growth and people want to get in the path of progress and watch the sun rise.  James: Got it. I want to go back to the 92 units multifamily, because I think it's a very interesting story. Everybody tells all the good stuff about multifamily, how much they make? And there are a lot of people who doesn't tell all the bad stuff or deals that are losing money or what deals are under water. Kathy: Nobody wants to talk about it, I'll talk about it.  James: Yeah, I want to talk about that because I think it's a very good learning. So, you talked about 92 units where there was a gas leak, the city said you have to leave and you went from a 100% to 0%.  So what was the key learning from that experience?  Kathy: The key learning would be to make sure you've got the right insurance in place. A lot of people get their insurance policy but maybe don't really understand it; so, get an attorney to read it through and make sure you’ve got everything you need for that kind of situation. If you have the right insurance, then you can get through a situation like that. Unfortunately, in our case, the city made us do all kinds of things that were not necessary, before we could get a certificate of occupancy and  bring people back in; so, it took years to be able to occupy it again. And on top of that, when you have a vacant building and you got vandalism, so we'd have vandalism. And again, insurance can cover that, but it was hard, it was really hard.   So have plenty of reserves, really good insurance. Make sure that somebody, a professional, has looked at that insurance, to make sure that it will cover everything. And then you can get through those hard times. And if you're syndicating, if you brought in other investors into your deal, make sure that you have key man insurance or D and O insurance; because you’re responsible for your investors' dollars. I was able to go to the lender because we were sitting there vacant, no income and still having to pay that mortgage. And it was just cleaning me out, it was so difficult. It was so difficult; so we just stopped making the loan payments and I didn't know what to do. I had a million and a half of investor funds in there. So I just went to the bank, I flew out to Indiana, I met with the president of the bank and just said, here's the keys;  it's empty, it's vandalized, the city won't let us do anything with it, you can have it. And we were probably $1 million in arrears. And they say, I kind of knew they were going to do this, but I didn't know for sure, and it was a really scary moment; but they are like, you can have it. They cut the loan by over a million and it was still very difficult.    And so I think it's important that people understand the risk because there are so many young investors syndicating deals. They don't have the experience, they're taking other people's money and I literally talk to these young people and they are like, what's the big deal? It's easy, it's easy.  But their Performas are  only accounting for rents going up,  what if they don't, you know?  James: Correct.    Kathy: You just don't know. So you've got to have run that stress test on your Performa, understand that rear-ends can stabilize. That if there's a recession, a class property is the hardest to fill because people have lost their jobs; so they start discounting and then now someone's got the choice to live in a or a B class property for the same price, they're going to go with the A. So then to get tenants, you've got to lower your prices on the B property and that trickles down to the C. Whereas nobody's really accounting for that and I don't want to say nobody, a lot of new investors aren't accounting for the possibility of that scenario.     James: Yeah. And I can bet you that none of the gurus out there teaching about key man insurance and D and D, and E and O insurance, which you just mentioned this now. Because I know a lot of gurus and even they do not know because they just do teaching, a lot of them.   Kathy: There's a lot that going on and it's kind of terrifying. On the one hand, I feel like wow, there could be a whole lot of really good deals in about five years, but I don't want to think that way.  I wish everyone success, if you're really young and you're following a guru, so to speak, who's telling you how easy it is, just make sure you have someone on your team who's a little seasoned, who's got a little gray hair; you don't want to jump into an airplane with two young guys. If you're going to jump into an airplane and you know that it's blue skies, okay, fine. A couple of inexperienced pilots might be okay, but if you know you're flying into a storm, don't you want that old guy?    Just know that we are in turbulent territory right now, this is not the beginning of an expansion, and this is the middle or the end. So it's, it's, it's different. It's not as easy. So it's, different, it's not as easy; there's clouds, there's potentially a storm coming. Get that person with experience, who knows how to ride through storms, to be a part of your team, whether they're on it in an advisory position or you give them a little bit of shares so that they're invested in it. But just get that wise person with experience to help guide you.  James: Yeah. It's, interesting on how much deal is being done at this peak market cycle. Actually, if you look at the latest data by Dr. Glenn Mueller, we are in hyper supply state nationwide for apartments, we already passed the expansion cycle.   Kathy: Really? Oh, I haven't heard that. You know, I hear so many different things, I've heard that we're over supplied in Seattle and maybe Dallas and New York. James: Yeah, I mean that is national data, national data and then there's another data which shows each cities and where they are. And if you look at a lot of cities, a lot of cities are in hyper supply stage And the last batch of cities, which is at the last part of expansion, there's like 10 different cities, which is the last part of expansion; so even that cities is going to go into hyper supply. So, that's the data that is being published, I think we are [29:03 inaudible] if I remember correctly, Dr. Glenn Mueller is like 50 or 30 years, who has been doing analyses, research, on all commercial real estate asset classes. I follow him closely and since last June, we already in hyper supply, nationally.    Kathy: That's terrifying but I guess there could be deals for you and me in about 2 or 3 years James: Well, I still have my properties, but I usually buy value, that way we can try to push income. So if you're buying at  low prices, we are pushing income so that we have buffers, so in case it turns down, hopefully, that buffer is not eaten up.  But there are a lot of people who are buying deals which doesn't have any buffer, there's no real value added component to it. They just buy because they're getting a good loan, cash flowing, there are a lot of investors who want to invest; and there are a lot of gurus out there also telling that there're still deals out there and people are just jumping, it's fear of missing out.  Is it a similar sentiment that you see in 2006, 2007?  Kathy: The thing that feels similar, is a whole bunch of people giving other people advice,  who don't have any experience and people with no money and no experience, doing deals; that's what scary. And lenders coming in and so much money, they'll just lend on just about anything, so that feels familiar. What's different is that there are fewer people who can afford a property; you really have to qualify, to live in a home. I don't see a single family housing collapse. In multifamily, there's just going to be rental demand for years to come. So it's really only the people who make bad decisions, who buy the wrong property, who don't calculate the repairs adequately or overestimate rent increases; those are the people who get hurt. They over leverage, anyone who over leverages that's concerning. or in ballooning short...  James:: Short term loans, Like bridge loans and all that, got it; so coming back to that insurance issue on the 92 units. So I'm trying to understand the root cause; I know we didn't get the right insurance, there's something were not covered. What was your insurance selection process in the beginning? Did someone recommend you to this insurance?  Kathy: I trusted my partner. I didn't have enough experience; everything I'm teaching is really from my own experience. I certainly didn't know how to look at a multifamily insurance policy and know that it was enough; I should have run it by an expert and I do that now on everything, we have experienced experts that look at it. But at the time I didn't know and  insurance companies are always going to take advantage when they can, so it's difficult to know what to look for; especially when you'd never in a million years expect something like that. If you're buying an older building, which many people are because they're doing the value adds, these are things that can happen. You have old pipes, the city ended up making us replace all the water lines, all the gas; it was, like having to build a whole new building. It was just a nightmare.    James: Yeah, and what kind of loan did you take? Was it an agency loan or was it a small bank loan kind of thing?    Kathy: Small bank, yeah…    James:   I recently had one of my buildings under fire. So, I did look at insurance in the beginning when we bought it, but there are so many details behind that policy coverage.    Kathy: Yeah, how could you know? No you can't   James: I didn't know, until the fire happened when I was talking to the adjuster, he said, oh the good thing is I have really good solid insurance.  But the amount of details in terms of coverage, it's just shocks me, that so many things that cannot be covered if we don't get it.   And in multifamily, just for the listeners education, the insurance is one thing that people can play around with, you can't play around with taxes because taxes by  the county and all the expenses is pretty small. Payroll is something it's a bit hard for you to control; you need good staff to run the property. So you have to budget it properly, taxes, you have to budget properly. But the insurance is, yeah you can pick around here and there; get slightly lower premium and that contributes to your LTV; which is how much loan they're going to give or how much loan proceeds. So, sometimes it's very tempting to do deals to get higher proceed by compromising insurance. And insurance is one thing that always comes at the end of the whole loan commitment process.  Let's say you're closing in two weeks, the bank is going to give you a loan commitment and insurance is the last one that comes, as the final price. And if the insurance agent messed up or if the syndicators or the sponsor messed up, in estimating that amount; the deal can fall through at the end. So what happened is people, there's a lot of possibility that people take shortcuts in insurance because they didn't want to deal to fall through, so it’s crazy.  Kathy:  It is just so important to have good insurance.  I have a friend who is a big fund manager, a multimillion dollar fund and he's savvy,  very smart investor and he owned a bunch of buildings, commercial buildings, I believe apartments in Houston before the floods. I don't know if you know this, but if your insurance doesn't specifically say it covers named storms, and of course what hurricane doesn't have a name, if that's not specified, then it's not covered. And he did not have, I don't know specifically, but he was not covered in that storm. Which again is, an insurance company is going to do what’s best for them? So make sure you've got an attorney who specializes. I've got a neighbor who that’s his job; He’s a specialist in making sure your insurance is what you think it is, because it would be just so easy to change one little word. James: That's interesting, I didn't know that. Good thing I don't have anything in Houston, but it can happen anyway, whole Texas.. So, did you try to hire a public adjuster and tried to fight for you and they gave up on it just because it's not covered?  Kathy: We hired an attorney to help us find it and it didn't get anywhere. I think we got money for the vandalism, but even that, you have to make sure when you have a vacant building, whether it's a single family or multifamily, you have to make sure your insurance company is aware of that and there's a different policy for that. So, there's just a lot to understand, when managing these properties. But, now I know what it's like to manage other people's money and be in a situation like that; I couldn't sleep for years.  I think you could probably hear me on the balcony crying. I would have investor calls where I would just burst out in tears halfway through and these lovely people just worked with me through it, because they knew it wasn't my fault; but I will never go through that again, that's the worst feeling, it's terrible.    Nobody sued me, but they could have maybe, I don't know. They've been very understanding. But today when I do syndications, we eliminate as many risks as is possible. One of them is we do a lot of building subdivisions and it was really the builders and developers who got wiped out in the last downturn. Because a few banks just failed, they couldn't pay their construction loans; even if you had $20 million construction loan to finish your project that was gone. So, you literally couldn't finish your project, so builders just went out of business left and right, and land became dirt cheap, cheap as the dirt that it was on. We were able to buy a lot of that land because I was just getting into syndications back in 2010, we bought some incredible land; 4,200 lots in Tampa for a 10 cents on the dollar and things like that.  But we didn't want to be on the other side of that this time around. So the way that we have handled all of our developments is we raise all the money, believe it or not, we raise all the money to acquire the land, and title it, get a horizontal construction, the utilities, the roads and everything and build the first phase. We raise all the money for that, we don't take any bank financing because we do not want to get stuck in that situation; which again, took down the biggest of builders. National builders went down because of their loans, because they're financing. So we just own it with cash, we take all the money from the first phase, use that to build the second phase and our investors get a nice 15% preferred return in a situation where there's no leverage.    Now I love leverage, I love leverage. And it's different on a multifamily and certainly on one to four units; I’m all about leverage. Just make sure that it's the kind of leverage that you could live with. On a single family home, just make sure, again, you've got the right insurance on that property too. I do know somebody who owned a single family home in Houston, didn't have that named insurance, their house flooded and insurance didn't cover it. So even for a single family up to a big multifamily, you really need advice on your insurance.     James: Interesting,  I just learned something new, that construction loan and how the builders, because we always wonder how did the building not happen. So now it makes sense because the construction loan, the bank doesn't have the money and they just said, no more, already done.    Kathy: You're done. You had everything you need, it all lined up. But even people who had their money in the bank, they couldn't access it. For a lot of people our equity lines, they were just gone. In 2009, I had a developer come to me with somebody who actually listens to the real wealth show and he said, you're just not going to believe the kinds of things I can pick up from the banks, from the REO departments. And these asset managers don't know what they've got; they don't know how to value it. But there were these subdivisions one after another that literally could not be completed because the loans were gone. And I didn't know that I could raise money, but I tried it and we raised $3 million dollars in one event. And we were able to buy 27 waterfront town homes in Portland, in the Pearl district, the hottest part of Portland. They were 70% complete, they were totally built; the only thing that wasn't done was the interior. All we had to do is put in the kitchens and the bedrooms and the carpets and finish it off; and, so we were able to buy it for $3 million, all 27 units, when the loan alone had been 13 million. And then we just finished them off because the builder couldn't do it.  James: That's the opportunity you get in the downturn I guess, if you've got the cash and you know how to do it kind of thing, very Interesting. So, let's go to a more personal side, Cathy because you have a big network of investors and you have a big presence on the radio and also on the podcast side of it. So why do you what you do? I mean, what's your big why in your whole venture?  Kathy: That's a great question. It started out more self focused. My husband was told in 2003 that he had melanoma, that it had spread, and the doctor thought it spread to his liver and metastasize and told my husband he had six months to live. No one should put a timeline on your life and the doctor was wrong, and Rich is fine today. However, 16 years later, he is fine. Although he gets regular checks, make sure his skin is okay because he's a surfer and a rock climber; and he's still out there in the sun. So in the beginning it was like, I got to figure out how to make money. I don't believe the doctor is right but if he is, I've got two kids, I've got a house, I've got to figure this out. So I just changed my radio show to, how to make money. So in the beginning it was a passionate desire to take care of my husband and my children and learn the secrets of the wealthy and that's how the real wealth show started.  Then when I learned the secrets, and found out that people are willing to share them, people like Robert Kiyosaki, he was willing to come on my show and tell me his secrets; that's how we ended up investing in Texas.  I just couldn't believe what I was hearing; I just couldn't believe that there was this way to build wealth that no one had told me.  I just couldn't believe it and all the ins and outs of how to get loans and how to clean up your credit and the tax benefits and the leverage; there’s no other way to build wealth. I just couldn't believe it.   So it opened my eyes, gave me hope. We followed, we made mistakes, but even with mistakes and even with losing our money and other people's money in the beginning, we got back up on our feet and it works. And now when I help people, I see, I have people who've been following me since then. And I just had someone on my show last week who said, I did everything you said and I'm retired now, it worked, it worked; 10 years later. So I know it works and  so I'm passionate about helping other people who were in the same situation I was in, which was absolute terror. How was I going to take on the payments of our big house and raise these two little children as a single mother, if the doctor was right? We blew through our medical bills. What was I going to do? I wasn't going to go get a job and be away from my kids for 10 hours a day. So to learn the secrets of the wealthy, to learn passive income and to be able to share that with other people and see their light bulbs go on and like, oh my gosh, this is incredible, how is this possible?  I don't know, I don't know why we're not taught it in school? That’s my why.  James: Yeah. I realized with my first single family, when I start getting that monthly cash, [44:07 inaudible] actually, this really works.  Kathy: It works, it works. James: Yeah. Somebody else paying for your mortgage and cash flows and you buy it right, all kinds of things, it definitely works. It's amazing. Correct.    Kathy: I got my daughter, when she was 24; she got a job right out of college, worked for two years, was making pretty good money. She lived in Chico, which is northern California, and  you know the  home prices there aren't totally inflated like they are today, but they weren't two years ago when she bought. She's only 24 years old, and she came to me and said, hey mom, I'm going to buy a new car. I said, no, no; before you buy a car, because that's going to affect your debt to income ratios, let's just talk about buying a house. Oh Mom, I'm too young, I'm too young to buy a house. I'm like; do you know who your mother is? We need to talk. So we went to a mortgage broker and sure enough, she could qualify for a house up to $300,000; she was blown away.    It turns out that her payment was less than what she was paying in rent for a two bedroom; she could get a three bedroom. So we went house shopping, she found a house that needed a little bit of work, so she got a good deal on it right across from Bidwell Park, amazing location. And then when she bought it, she realized there was a lot of work and then she got real mad at me for about six months. She's like, mom, I'm 24 I'm too young for all this, I don't want to be settled down, I'm a millennial. I'm not supposed to be settling down, it’s too much, I hate this house. I said, honey, just trust me.  Well then the fires happened, right? And Paradise got completely wiped out an entire city, suddenly. She had put her house on Airbnb to rent out a couple of rooms on certain holidays and so forth. All of a sudden her Airbnb app was just blowing up with people saying, I'll pay $4,000 a month for your place. And her rent is $1,600, not her rent, her mortgage, PITI, taxes and insurance, $1,400 and she was getting people willing to rent for 4,000. So she took that offer, she rented it to a very nice family who lost their home and she went cash flowing incredibly. And she's like, I get it now, mom, this is better than a car, I get it.    James: And she can buy a car with that money, right? And be comfortable paying for it too.   Kathy: That's right, she can buy a car.   James: Can you name a few of your secret sauces that you have grown this big, in terms of popularity and getting known by people? What's your secret sauce? Kathy: You know, everybody has their thing. I happen to love broadcasting, that's my background. I went to school in broadcasting, so radio and podcasts that was just something I love to do.  I love to write, I love to educate, so I just followed my passion.  I know a lot of people want to start podcasts right; maybe they're not suited for that. For me, it was just passion and bullishness and desire to learn. And I think because I was on a major San Francisco station, I got invited to speak at a lot of [47:29 inaudible] before I knew anything about the business. It was terrible; I'd stand in front of the room, I don't know what I'm talking about. But that's when I realized, a lot of people don't know what they're talking about.  So I just made it my mission to understand and to read as many books and to truly become an expert because I started to see that people who were being treated as experts, really weren't, and that was upsetting because they were guiding people in the wrong direction. So I guess you could say that's part of what... another thing is, I'm just really bullish. If I want to go to an event and I don't want to pay $2,000 for it, I'll just call and ask if I could be a speaker and a lot of times they'll say yes; sometimes it was just for personal reasons.  James: Okay, that's interesting. When I hear you on your podcast, it's like a newscaster, like Fox or CNN, you know? Its like, is that Kathy? Oh, it sounds really good. You have a really good voice and a presence on the radio and podcasts, that's awesome. Is there any proud moments in your life that you think it's going to be with you until the end? Do you think, I am very proud of this moment, related to business? Kathy: Related to business? Wow, there's been a few.  I would say it's our ability to raise money.  I'll tell you one, a developer that we love came to us and said he'd been working on entitlements on this land for 10 years; it had been very difficult to get the entitlements, but he wouldn't bring us in, until he had them. Which was great and we wouldn't do the deal until he had them. Well, he got them, but he was in a hard money loan because it took so long. It was actually a friend of his, lent him the money for six months and he was at the five month mark, and he thought his friend would extend it and his friend said, no. The loan was for 4 million, the property was worth 9 million. So this friend lent the money for six months, knowing that he would probably foreclose and take the 4 or 5 million in equity, from his friend. So he came to us and said, I just can't believe he's doing this, can you raise the money in a month? And I said, I don't know? So we did, we did an event, we raised the money, we paid off that hard money loan the day it was due. And that guy already had come to the property telling everybody he was their new boss.  James: Wow. So he was really wanting to take it, I guess  Kathy: He was a shark, yeah. And so to be able to come in and save this developer, because we had built a network of people who are willing to write a check so quickly, it really meant a lot. He invited us to a dinner once we closed and he had 50 employees there, all who would have lost their jobs, if we hadn't been able to do that. So, I would say that was a moment that I was very proud of; and our investors are going to be the ones who benefit from all that equity, not this guy who is just a shark.  James: Got It. That's very interesting. I can't resist asking you one question because you raise a lot of money from investors. So, who would you invest with? What kind of sponsor or syndicator that you would look for? What are their characteristics? You don't have to have no names, but what are the character types or characteristic that you would look for, if you want to invest. Because you have seen the whole gamut of our real estate cycle and what people do and all that.   Kathy: Well,  and I am investing in other people's deals. What I look for is kind of what I told you. Track record, experience, a deal that favors, I don't want to say favors the investor, but is very fair, investor friendly. I don't like seeing deals where they're fees here  and fees there, so you get a piece of the profit, but there's no profit at the end because they've charged so many fees along the way, there's nothing for you. So just investor friendly projects, but mainly it would be people with a tremendous track record and who has been through several cycles, at least someone on the team has several decades of experience. At this point, I think a lot of people are looking for cash flow, though a lot of our deals have been development, it's not cash flow, we just get a big check at the end once the project's done. But the ongoing cash flow, there’s only a few that really know how to keep that cash flow going in any kind of cycle. So those are the people for my retirement that I would want to be investing with.  James: Okay, awesome. All right, Kathy thanks for coming on the show. Can you tell the listeners how to get hold of you?  Kathy: Sure. You can go to Real Wealth Network. Real as in real estate, wealth as in your money and network as the network we have nationwide; Real Wealth Network.com. You can join for free and it just opens up all these portals in our website. It gives you data on different cities, where the job growth is, the demographics; you get a session with one of our investment counselors and ongoing education. It's all for free@ realwealthnetwork.com And then of course, my podcast, Real Wealth Show.  James: Awesome. It's really nice to have you on the show and I'm sure you add tons of value, so happy to have you here.  Kathy: Thank you so much.    James: Thank you.    Kathy: Take care. Bye.

James: Hey listeners, this is James Kandasamy from Achieve Wealth podcasts, a podcast where we focus on commercial real estate operators across all asset classes. And we like to talk a lot about value at real estate investing. Today, I have Will Crozier from Cap X Ventures who started in multifamily investing starting 2012 and went up to like 7,000 units, almost 350 million in assets under management. Right now, I think he has sold a lot of his assets and he has like a thousand units right now in the Dallas area. Hey Will, welcome to the show.  Will: Hey, James, awesome to be here. Thank you for inviting me.  James: Good. Is there anything that you want to elaborate on your past history and ventures in real estate? Will: I guess, I did about 10 years, single-family just grinding away and then moved from California out to Texas to the DFW area, wanting to do more of the same but quickly realized deal sizes were too small in DFW house. To flip a house out there was 60,000 and I was used to doing a $600,000 houses, so I was going the wrong way around. I looked around and said I need bigger deal sizes so I moved into apartments in a hurry, plugged in with some good people and started my multifamily career about seven years ago. We grew as quickly as we could, partnered up with people, raise capital to syndicate deals and just tried our best to do heavy value-add deals wherever possible. The uglier, the better, basically. James: I love that concept, right? That's where the deep value-add comes in. And I used to do a lot of deep value-adds even though now I'm doing a lot lighter value-add just because of the market cycle. And I know you do very, very heavy, deep value-add and you've started doing larger units. So talk about what are the deep value-add that you have done? One of the largest deep value-add that you have done. Will: I did a project, it was 656 units, just a single property alone, drove that one down into the 70% occupancy range. That was not an extremely heavy value add, it was mostly interior innovations but it was the largest one as far as heavy, heavy like, you know, a war zone type properties that a couple of 200 and 400 units that were just ugly. Even drop those down, purchased at 50% occupancy and pushed it down into the high twenties. I mean, just clean up. It was basically a brand new project when we were done with it but turn the neighborhood around in a major way too.  James: Yeah, I think that's where you make the most money, right? I mean, it's always a real estate. Any invest, at least we walked a game and you took a big risk in that kind of deal. I'm sure that reward also must have been tremendous because there's so much of equity built up, right? That's where the deep value-add or even the value add comes into play. That's where the wealth is created. So tell me about why do you like deep value adds versus the lighter call or yield place?  Will: Sure. Well, when I started in multifamily, I had a little money, a couple hundred thousand dollars but it was nothing to really, really brag about, I couldn't retire on it. I couldn't invest it at 10% interest and have it changed my life at all so I had no choice but to really do big game projects. I needed to really change my game. To change my outlook on life to set myself up and so I could go and invest and make 7% or 9% and I was just like, that's not the station I'm in life. I was raised poor, I didn't come in from a lot of money. I needed to just shift my whole reality. So I only focused on deals where I could make a 100% return or a 200% return. And yeah, there are lots of people's money together and just go, go, go. And so I did that serial 10 31, 10 31, 10 31, and then, other projects around it, I flipped them. I mean, I was in and out of some deals in 13 months, 17 months; just get in there and go hard. Usually, it was about a two-year thing where if you double your money and then double that money again and then double that money again, you start to see the multiplication effect, just go crazy. So I went from almost nothing to a good sum of cash through doing these heavy value add deals.   And you mentioned something that everyone looks at this differently, but risk-reward, I always looked at my deals as not risky because they were in terrible condition. They were rundown, there was no one living in them. So there was really nothing I could do to make the situation worse. Whereas the yield deals, you know, they're really skinny, they're really tight. You jump in there and you make a few missteps and you can drop from 93% to 83% in a hurry. And the way the debt set up, like to me that seemed risky, at least at the time. There are a million ways to look at it, but for me, it's like there's nothing I'm going to do to mess this deal up more. And there were 15 other people bidding on it so I can get out of it if I need to and it's a bridge loan. So to me, at the time it just seemed not risky. It's strange.  James: You are right actually. I mean sometimes people just look at cash flow. They don't really look at the debt service coverage, right? Because on a yield play or Copley, your debt service coverage is so thin, you've got no way to increase your NOI. So let's say you're buying at 1.25, if you're not doing anything, you're just going to service that debt at 1.25 maybe slightly more because the market appreciates to 1.3; whereas on a deep value-add play, you may be buying it less than one DSCR but you are pushing up the NOIs so much to 1.5, 2 X. So in case the market turns, you're not going to come back to one, you've got so much a buffer to play. Will: Right. We start cash flowing it 70% occupancy and it's going and going. And so everywhere you go from there, it's really, really nice. James: Yeah. I mean it's a bit hard for me to do yield place, just because I see it as a risk as well because there's just no buffer there. Question for you--so can you hear me?  Will: Yeah, I can. Will: Because you sound to be so quiet. So, I mean, you went up to like zero in 2012 in multifamily and went up to 7,000 units. You did so many 10 31 and you started selling a lot of it. Right? So when did you start selling a lot of your deals? Will: Well, it became a bit obvious to me writing on the wall, but the tide was no longer with us. You know, the winds weren't at the back anymore. There's still deals to be done. There's always deals to be done. But it wasn't this situation or set up where no matter what I do, I'm going to make lots of money. The heavy value- add deals started getting super rare, hard to get into them. The interest rates started ticking up and that's eroding the value of my property when I'm not doing anything wrong, but I'm watching millions of dollars just get wiped off of the table just because of interest rates, you know? And that goes up and down but that was another indicator. The county started playing ridiculously hard with the taxes and that was another thing. It was just like, I'm watching millions of dollars just disappear and I'm not doing anything wrong.  You know, I'm just this part of the business cycle and its part of the politics of the game. So when I saw some of those things, easing and changing and the rapid competition, especially in DFW, from not only coastal buyers but international buyers, we're selling to people in Dubai, UAE, et cetera. So it's just like this is a really different game than what I entered in '12. And so when I entered in '12, I was always all in, just anything I had pushed it in, tell everybody, put your money in this thing, it's going to go, go, go. When I couldn't be that aggressive anymore, it made me start to just to look around a little bit, what are my options in life? I had accumulated big pilot ships and I don't need to do this anymore. I can easily retire and not do anything for the rest of my life and my kids could share that as well.  So I have to really stop and look at my life; what is it that I want to do? What is my risk tolerance? Am I gonna bust my ass really competing for trying to get 7% return? Or maybe find a way to eke out a 10% return. Or for me, it's just hit pause or at least dial it way back, look at my life, what makes me happy? What do I want to do with myself? Let the market settle down a little bit, let it choose a new direction and then decide, do I want to jump back in with this, push everything back in again or figure out a different strategy? So right now, I'm just kind of observing, taking it all in. If a good deal comes my way, I jump on it. I closed the deal a month ago in Abilene, another 120 unit value-add deals. So I'll grab them, but I'm not gonna run around chasing my tail, trying and forcing to put it together when I don't need to.  James: Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy out there right now. Right? I mean, you can do deals in a good market, in a bad market. The acceleration of how much you want to buy on a market cycle like this, maybe slow down. I mean you have to just think about it, whether it's a real deal or not. I think there's just so many people jumping into the game as well, I guess. Prices are being bumped up so much and they are value-add deals, they are deep value-add deals, but a lot of sellers are asking for crazy prices, which means that deep value-add becomes like a yield play.  Will: Yeah, it really is. They're charging you the premium to do all the work.  James: A lot of people are jumping saying, hey, it's a deep value-add or deep value-add but it's actually not value-add.  Will: We were buying it at 13 a door, you know, going crazy and the same deals are trading for 80 and 90 and they're in worse condition than, I don't know, it's just nuts. They're still deals, but frankly, I don't want to dedicate the 80 hours a week that I used to when I don't need to in this market cycle. Like that doesn't make sense for me personally to pursue that right now at least. At least with full dedication.  James: Got it. So are you still positive on multifamily or any other asset classes?  Will: Well, as I said, I purchased last month in Abilene. I'm basically kind of a sponsor in the deal. I raised equity for the deal. I underwrote the deal, I connected it, but I'm more happy to be working with sort of the next generation of deal sponsors, syndicator. If they have holes like equity gaps, I can plug that. If they have some experience things or they're not sure of a specific market, like I was already operating 500 units in Abilene so it's like throw this on there, same management company, it's just stamp, stamp, stamp, repeat. So if there are new deal sponsors who want to want to partner up and follow a similar pattern to what I've already established, that's where I can really add value to another team. I don't want to be out there every day. I don't want to live on site like I used to live on site. I'm just past all that, but I can still work with other people and make win, win, wins across the board.  James: Got It, got it. Got It. Let's go into details of what are some of the deep value-adds that you have done. Not really a specific deal, but when you look at the deal, how do you identify this is the deal for me, I want to really do this deal. What do you look for in that? Will: Well, the dream is, of course, the neighborhood. I'm less interested in the specific property than I am, 'can I invest millions of dollars in this neighborhood and have it mean something?' Have it attract the kind of people that will pay their rent, that won't bring crime, that will be a nice safe, habitable place for people with jobs want to live. So I'd always look at the neighborhood and just blue collars, great. If there are work trucks out there in the parking lot, I'm super excited about that. Of course, then property specific things, love of course pitch roofs or individual HVAC. I'm one of the weird guys that love all bills paid. I made more money on those deals than others; it's a hassle but there's money to be made there for sure. What else? Price Point says a lot. The right price point, jump in there and sometimes that's a really, really high price point versus other neighborhoods, but it's still just comparatively low. I love rundown interior units. We got really, really good at renovating interiors and doing it on the cheap. I imported all my stuff from China. I built a company around that, sold that company last year. But we could do an interior better and cheaper than almost anyone could. And that's how you raise rents. And that's how you get the NOI bumps and that's how you make a mini fortune on every deal you do. So those were sort of the criteria I was looking for.  James: Okay. Okay. I want to go a bit more into the underwriting, but before I do that, why do you like all bills paid? Will: Well, I always feel weird, is the SCC watching me, like lying sometimes, but you kind of get to act like a utility broker in a way, a middleman, so to speak. Where I can buy energy for 6 cents a kilowatt hour and I ended up basically selling it for 12 or whatever and I don't remember the specifics on that. And then they love it because they're not having to put these big deposits and run credit checks and all this stuff. So I get a buffer that makes it really, really simple for them, giving them a cheaper rate than they would be able to get even on their own. So again, it's kind of paving a win, win, win and I'm pulling in more cash each month. I'm kind of controlling their major expenditures, which is going to be their rents, it's going to be their utilities. And so, I kind of get to babysit a little bit. I hesitate to use that word. But if you have the right management team working with them, it's just a bigger rent check coming into you each month so your income is greater and when you go to sell the thing, you realize those gains. James: Yeah. And I think you can use your skills to relate the real utility bills, right? I mean, you can do local pilots and all that, which the upside, you get it right.  Will: Yeah, absolutely.  James: Got It. Got It. So let's talk about underwriting. So when you underwrite a deep value-add deal, what do you really look for? Do you just look for really, really low rent, you know, expenses? Or what else do you look for? I mean, let's talk about that. Will: I've never been one to super focus on expenses. Yeah. Expenses matter but they're generally going to be in the right ballpark unless you spot the obvious, water conservation thing or whatever. I always like to focus on income. Income is a lot easier to control than expenses. So you know, look at the submarket, do your market survey, see are you low and why are you low? Are there other factors besides just you have a terrible interior and amenities package? Just chew that up, underwrite that, you know but otherwise, just to figure out why you're low, see if you can plug that gap in that. I was never shy about leading the market. I would like to be a hundred under and come out a hundred over, you know, and I wasn't shy about getting it because we had a nice product and we always had a great management team. So that was probably my number one criteria is just making sure I'm getting something that I can really push and accelerate rents on. That was a lot easier before. James: Okay. Okay. So definitely income is a lot easier to control, where you can just increase the rent compared to the expenses. I know you do a lot of major rehabs, which needs a lot of materials and all that. So what triggered you to go and start importing materials, to reduce your cost in terms of expenses? Will: I did the first deal without any imports. I learned quickly, that was just like 77 units. But even on something that small, I had a hard time controlling the logistics supply chain. I would deal with AZ Parts Master Nationwide MRO, Lowe's, Home Depot, whoever and they would start delivering me different products as like keep trying to order the same thing. They would change the light fixture or the fan. And then one week it's $45 and the next week it's $62 and this was very, very frustrating. And my projects, I want it to be very uniform, very beautiful, started looking like patchwork quilts. And this one looks like this and this one looks like this and this was on a small deal. So the next time around, I bought 244 units and it was half occupied and I was like, well, I'm going to need about 300,000 square feet of flooring on this deal.  I had one of my partners was a Chinese national and she'd done imports for her own business. She's like, let's get on a plane, let's go. So I was like, okay, let's give it a try. And so flew over there and got overwhelmed in a hurry and made a few bad missteps early on, but corrected and adjusted and moved from flooring into anything else we needed massive quantities of. I remember my 1st container, 40 foot high Q container of fans came in, I think it was like 1400 fans. I'm like, what am I gonna do with this? And then before long, they were coming in monthly. And it was a wild run there for a while, to go from one of my one-bedroom units, I had a down unit and I just shoved stuff from Home Depot and Lowe's into it, to having a warehouse and then buying and renting the warehouse next to that and then two more next to that and buying, you know, medium duty trucks and forklifts. I'm like, what am I doing? But it all just made sense for my own projects and therefore it made sense for other people's projects. And that's I think a good foundation for any business is to solve issues and then let other people take advantage of the job you've done there. James: Yeah. Yeah. I would like to make sure that the listeners know, I mean the amount of hard work that I'm sure really have put in to do all that largest things, is huge. Right? So, it's not simple, but the thing is if you do it, you will get the benefit out of it. And I think when you really want to make a lot of money in real estate, that's the extent that you have to go to because that's where you really make the money when you go to integrate your supply chain. And you hop on a plane and go and solve problems. Will: Your right, James, and thank you for clarifying that. Like it's easy to sit here in a podcast years after the fact and make it seem like it was somehow easy or it didn't take that much. It literally was 80 hours a week. Holidays, weekends. I moved into my projects to really watch them because every penny of my net worth was in these projects. I was controlling tens of millions of dollars of assets and yet I was living on like 2100 bucks a month. That's me, my wife, my kids, couldn't afford anything. I was a paper millionaire and then a paper multimillionaire and yet I couldn't pay for anything and I was deeply in credit card debt, just trying to keep everything afloat. It's humorous to me when people come in and say, I want to do what you do, but they're like a doctor and they're used to like pulling down 400 g's a year and there's like, you probably should just be a passive investor. Forget all about what I'm doing because it's not really going to mesh. You're going to be in poverty for the first four years you're doing this thing.  James: Yeah. I remember when I did my second deal, we did like almost one and a half a million dollars. We did it within one year. And I think that whole idea is you're trying to convert all that capital that you have in your cash for Rehab, you're trying to convert it to NOI. So once it becomes NOI, that's equity. Now the building is much more valuable. So you're basically adding all this sweat equity, your ideas, your business tactic, all this into a NOI. And how skillful you are converting this whole thing into the NOI is where the skill gaps. Will: Yeah. And then if you're really good, you're tempted into a 10 31 exchange so you don't realize any of the equity. And then you go ahead and do it again and you're like, I promise I have some money somewhere [21:37crosstalk]  James: Yeah. I like to refi and take out that money. I least I want to quickly do it, refi it, take out, okay, now I see some cash, cash flow, right? Will: And the taxes are a little nicer in that scenario.  James: Yeah. There's no tax on a refi, right. Even on 1031, yeah, you defer the taxes, but this all tax strategy and the amount of NOI that you created to take out your equity. So of all the deep value that you did, what do you think is the most valuable value-add? Will: What do you mean by that, James?  James: Like for example, let's say you have $1 million to do a project, right? But that million dollars become like 300,000. So what would you go in and focus first? Interior. Exterior. And if it's interior, what would you focus? If it's exterior, what would you focus? Because now you have a reduced budget, right? What do you think is the most important value add? Will: I hate exteriors, they have to be done, but you very, very rarely see any kind of rent increase on exteriors. It's more of a cohesive theme of the property that will give you a rent bump on the exterior, but you can throw millions and millions at roofs, parking lot, siding, like retaining, landscaping, that's going to give you tiny returns as far as NOI. So, of course, I loved the interiors. Flooring is like magic. You put in a new floor and people are immediately amazed by it. I love to put in hard surface flooring. I hate carpet. So I mean, just put in the hard surface flooring, it's easy to turn, it's easy to keep clean. It's a fantastic product. So floors are huge. Appliances, I always bet big on appliances. I almost always went to stainless steel, nice packages; once in a while, I would just make it all black or whatever. But appliances and flooring get you a long, long way on interior renovations. So that's the first thing on all of my budgets. James: Got It. So appliance and flooring. Okay. Interesting. So let's go to the personal side of it. Right? So you sold a lot of your assets and you said you don't think so, I mean the odds are on your side right now in terms of market and you want to take it slowly. If you find the right deal, you would go ahead and do it. But why did you move out of the country? I mean from Dallas to the Philippines.  Will: Could have come somewhere a little closer. Right. So just a little background on that. And when I was traveling to China a lot, I really fell in love with travel and I really also fell in love with Asia. My wife is from the Philippines, so I have a direct family connection here. Spending time over here, I enjoyed it. The speed of life is totally different than the US, it's just in slow Mo. That can be infuriating sometimes, you are like, what's wrong with this place? But it's all those things that are wrong that make it so great at the same time. So I try to just accept it, be patient with it, but also got plugged in with a couple of foundations. One that I'm starting, one that I am a currently a board member on and support in any way I can. It's children's surgical outreaches that for some reason is so rewarding to me. Like I'll just do it until I die. If no one else wants to participate, I don't care. But to see how far a US dollar can go and changing someone in the third world's entire life, entire future. Like what we'll spend on an average dinner out, we'll change the entire outlook of one child's life through one simple surgery that takes basically an afternoon. That blew my mind and it made me reevaluate my own expenses, my own material desires in life.  I just sold my house in Texas. A big stupid, huge, ugly, gorgeous house, and then my cars and all that stupid stuff that I love so much, but just change the focus, you know, and tried to move into something a bit more humble and easy, lower expense so I can divert funds to some of this other stuff that's just so much more rewarding at the end of the day.  James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'm from Southeast Asia, I'm from Malaysia. Right. So I know a lot of these lifestyles there even though I don't think my lifestyle was slow. It was really fast as well, but it's just a different perspective in life. Did any of these travels and living in the Philippines or even traveling, do you think it changed any of your perspective towards money? Will: Oh, yes, absolutely. I noticed first, right away when I started traveling a lot internationally, besides just having a hotel to stay in or food to buy, I didn't really ever think about money. It was just weird. Like when I was bored in the US and I was kind of building my empire, If I got bored, bored maybe, if I had free moments ever, I would go on Zillow or I would go on cars.com and I would just browse for whatever the next kind of toy was, the next car. Like, look, what's that house in that neighborhood. There's a beautiful neighborhood, I would love to live there, someday. And it was all just sort of focus on the material, a focus on improving the lifestyle, basically. And when I was traveling, I just never really thought that way and when that started clicking in my head, I was like, I'm really happy when I'm traveling and I'm not focused on really the material at all. It's more learning, experiencing things. It all got cheaper. That was one of the weird things was this much happier, more fulfilling lifestyle was way, way, way, way cheaper than the less satisfying, less happy lifestyle. So that was a big Aha moment for me. James: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, sometimes you look at people who are really poor or living in a very small house or hut, you know, in a poor country, they are very happy compared to some people who live in a very big house with a lot of money. I mean, there's so much commitment, so many issues. You have to make a lot of life choices or you may not be happy, but people who have fewer things, maybe they make fewer choices and they're much happier, right? I mean, end of the day, why do we make money? So to supposedly supposed to be happy, right. So it's just so much of a difference in perspective when you're traveling to that kind of places and you experience different lifestyles. Will: I've heard always that thing where it's just cliche almost in the US and I'm sure you've heard it, where people talk about the people that have nothing. And as an American, when someone says they have nothing, basically that means like they drive a 10-year-old car, either their house is less than 2000 square feet. That's what having nothing meant to m,e until I met people who literally don't have anything. They are living under a leaf house, built out of bamboo and you know, they find an old water bottle to go and haul water from the stream to where they're living that month. And it was okay. They actually have nothing and yet, as you said, at the time they're having the smile on their face and the relaxed nature of it all. And poverty is horrible, it's a terrible thing, especially for health. That's what you watch just get destroyed as people who are aging with diseases but outside of the health, everything else to me seems like they're having a better living existence than most anybody I know in the first world. James: Yeah. It's a completely different perspective when you start to travel, right? And I see people here, sometimes they complain the country is bad. Oh, this is bad. That is not right. This is not right. Well, you have never seen the other part of the world. So it's just surprising for me on when people just don't have that 360 perspectives of how the whole life is. I mean I'm not saying that I have when you have it, but you know when you travel and you go really live in another country, you can see a lot more things which you are not able to see when you are living here in the US. There are so many things that have been taken for granted here.  Will: The opportunities in the US are insane, the low cost. Americans think US is expensive. That is ridiculous. The price of cars and of electronics and of anything and the wide availability of anything you want, it's all cheap and it's quality and it's a variety. And you come in most countries and cars costs double like a BMW in the Philippines or in Thailand or anywhere over here, it costs double what it costs in the US. And it's like the cheaper model and it's pretty crazy. James: Yeah. When I was living overseas in Malaysia, I can never afford a luxury car, have to buy a local car. And even that was really good already. So because everything else was expensive just because the governments like to tax the in parts of the car. And also your pay scale really doesn't jive with the cost of living. Here, the pay scale does compensate for your cost of living. So things are much cheaper here in the US. Will: Yeah. In China, it blew my mind. You have maybe lower level management positions and hotels or restaurants or whatever and you find out that they're earning $400 a month and yet that's what rent costs. Rent is exactly what their income is. And you're like, how does this even work? Like, I don't understand the economics and you go visit one of these homes and you realize there are six people in a really, really tiny one bedroom, you know, 400, 500 square feet and it's not comfortable and it's not nice.  We're were very, very lucky as Americans. My wife just became a citizen last month and a smile on her face to have that blue passport. To enter another country with an American passport is a whole different experience than with our Philippine passport where anywhere you go you need a visa. And getting that visa is not like applying online. It's tax returns. It's like bank statements. It's like health records, shots of full travel itinerary of where you're going when you're going to be there. Like it was just a mess. We're spoiled as Americans. James:  Absolutely. Absolutely. So can you name a few things that you think is the secret success, any secret sauces that you think that you want to share with the listeners? Will: Yeah, I could share a few things that have hugely improved my performance as a businessman, as an entrepreneur, the short cuts per se. Partnering has been huge for me. It's not for everybody, but it's for most people, especially when you're dealing with something like multifamily. I'm by far not the smartest person around, I'm the kind of a simple-minded guy. I don't even have that many skills. I just have the determination to make sure I'm getting deals done to land the deals, to execute. I'm a doer, but I've had to really surround myself with phenomenal partners who understand accounting inside out, who understand books or taxation inside and out, people who are super duper organized. These are big failings that I have in my skillset, my personality. So I've had to bring these folks in and show them that I can do something to add value in their life. And then we partner up. And that's been huge for me.  Another thing that's been huge as I've raised so much capital, I mean my returns in all of this would have been tiny compared to what I was able to do because it was easy to go out after a while and some reputation to raise $10 million or $15 million to do a deal. Without that, my returns would have been a fraction of what they've been. But I built the trust, I built the relationships. I performed for my investors. I did everything I could to make them a lot of money and because of that, I made a lot of money, a portion of everything they made, I also made.  Another thing that I think has just been huge was starting this, I wanted to do it all alone. I was one of these guys that just wanted to read on like Bigger Pockets or like hang out online and just read and I could do it alone. I didn't need anyone's help. I wanted to own it. That would've been a huge mistake in multifamily investing. You can kind of wing it in single family, but multifamily, it's a team sport all day long. You need a hell of a team on your side, on your behalf. You trust each other, you lean on them, you rely upon them. And so team building, not only for my immediate advisors but also for raising the capital. It required me getting off my butt, get out from the computer, go awkwardly, shake hands, go and meet people and it was horrible for me. I hated doing that. I lacked self-confidence. I lacked the thought that anyone would be interested in even talking to me just I was, I was kind of low and slow. You had to just be like, I really need this. I need this to work, I need this to be successful. So I'm going to go and do the worst thing I could think of doing and plant myself at a networking event from 5:00 PM until 10:00 PM and not allow myself to leave. I'm just there, I'm trapped. But no matter what, I got to go talk to people and it was horrible, terrible. The dentist is better, tax is better, whatever. But eventually I started liking people at these things and they started knowing what I was up to and I bought that house or I bought that new apartment complex and how is that going? And loosen my tongue. I got my confidence up, my courage up and before long, I really love going to them because those were my pals, those were my buddies. Now, wherever I went to these different real estate meetups and without that, impossible to do the business, I don't have enough money to take down 10, 20, 30, $40 million deals Like how am I going to do that? I need guarantors, I need KPs who believe in me. How are they going to believe in me? Chatting for a while, talking about my business, bringing them out to my property, sharing a meal or a beer or whatever. And suddenly they're like, yeah, I'll sign on your note with you. Some of these were full recourse loans and they're pledging their stock portfolio on me. Blew my mind. But it was just through being sincere or not hiding stuff, just being a hundred percent transparent with them. And I had people who I never thought wanted to talk to me, betting on me with their signature and pledging their stock portfolio to make me get these full recourse bridge loans done on 50% occupied properties. So that was the long answer, but really, really, really network, partner up if you don't have what you need, raise capital, do bigger deals and go, go, go. James:  Yeah. Yeah. Awesome advice. I think so much of advising golden nuggets in what you mentioned just now. Is there any proud moments in your life that you think, you know, you're really proud of that and one day you're going to tell to your grandkids, you know, when you're really, really old, one proud moment that you think, oh, I'm so happy I did this. I'm very proud of that. Can you share that with us? Will: You know, it's, it's probably the moment, the sort of make or break moment. When I was in southern California and I had a good thing going, I understood how to flip houses. I was making some okay money at it, paying the bills, accumulating. I had more than anyone I knew, but it was 300 grand or something. It was nothing but it was more than anything I knew. So I had a comfortable life and I had a pattern and I had a sort of figured it out and it was really just stepping back and saying, I want more opportunity and I'm willing to do whatever it takes to get it.  So I didn't know anyone in Dallas, not a soul, zero people there. I looked around the whole country, looked at Florida, I looked at Arizona and Nevada like anywhere there was supposed to be opportunity and I really zeroed in on Texas as hey, strong economy, great wages, low cost of living, low taxation, they seem business friendly and I just pieced this together off of Internet research. I drove around the country and the old piece of crap, 91 Buick with 200,000 miles on it and I was like, where is it? And I picked Texas and it was really just a twin costs on Dallas. I think I visited there in April and it was pretty that day or something and I just moved there.  So I just loaded up my car with all my junk and then dropped it in a storage facility and lived in a motel six as I tried to figure out what's next, what's the next play. People looked at me like I was a bit crazy, but to me, that was the only move. Like how could I start a business in California? There wasn't friendly for businesses down there. Rent was absurdly high, not only to live but to rent anything for an office space or just to build anything. Costs were really high for real estate. So basically to answer your question, what am I really proud of? I took a leap, a calculated risk. I really calculated a lot. I really studied the thing, but then I made that leap. There was nothing comfortable about it. I didn't have any safety net. I had nothing. I had like six grand in the bank.  I lived, you know, expendable. I had my nugget but that was for business. It was forbidden to touch that. But I had six grand in the bank that I could actually do something with. And, you know, living in a motel six is humbling. Your friends by this point, they are 10 years into their career or five years into their career and they've got the three series beemer and the nice condos sort of by the beach kind of in California. And here's, Will, doing this weird stuff. But I just saw the future. I saw the writing on the wall and I took that gamble and I'm really, really glad I did it. It stacked the odds in my favor, it put odds behind me and I was able to set myself up to use those odds to roll the dice.  It didn't work immediately in Texas. It took several years to get going, but the odds were on my side. So then I just needed to play the game then. And I did and I played it as much as I could. And then it resulted in a fantastic past seven, eight years here.  James: It's a big leap of faith, right? And just so many people are scared to take the leap of fate or they just say, oh, I'm going to do it later. People give so many reasons to make that big jump and it's something that, you know, you have to do it if you have to do it, sometimes you have to make that choice. And is there like a daily habit that you have that you think has contributed a lot to your effectiveness in your success? Will: I guess this will sound a little controversial. I think there's maybe two things. One, I got good at that networking thing I talked about, and so probably more than a lot of people, you will find me out at five drinking a decaf coffee somewhere or grabbing a beer with people that I've never met before. I don't know who these people are, they just messaged me on Facebook. I'm like, okay, that what's happening here in Manila, people I've never met. They're like, you're in Manila. I'm going to be in Hong Kong, I'll meet you. But that's been huge to just keep doors open. Every time you meet a new person, you never know what door that's going to open up and even if they're humble and starting, they have ideas or a work ethic that you want to be part of or some new partnerships or new source of deals, some new source of equity, whatever.  So I do a lot of people are like, are you working? You know, sitting there just kind of talking at a bar or whatever. Yeah, that's been huge to keep some momentum going for me, a little controversial maybe. And then on the flip side of that, I try to stay sharp by every morning waking up and going for a jog and without fail, I've got my earbuds in and I'm listening to some podcasts. I'm listening to some audio book. I'm listening to something that's just drilling further understanding, intelligence into my mind, shifting my perspective. That's been huge for me to not maintain, but to continue to grow and expand my mind and where I'm going to go in the future. That's been huge for me. And the exercise combined with the knowledge is amazing.  James: Awesome. Is there anything else that you want to share with the audience, the listeners that you have not shared in any of the podcasts that you think, hey, I should mention this in some podcasts? Will: Interesting question. I think I haven't mentioned this just because it's pretty new in my mind, but it's really easy to get locked into the idea that going from having $2 million to $4 million is going to do something for you. It won't do anything for you. Like you won't even notice. It's so obnoxious that adding $1 million to your balance sheet will go unnoticed, but it gets to that point in a hurry to where you really have to shift and I was lazy about it. It's like, oh, there's another deal. I'll grab this. I'll do this one, do this one. What's really changed my life for the better has been reevaluating, stepping back and saying, okay, literally adding a few more million will go unnoticed to me but what will be noticed for me is I dramatically shift my schedule, how I'm living my life, who I'm interacting with, and that's kept me out of the daily grind of business a lot.  I'm still doing it. I still check in, I still email, I still call, but it's become a third of my day instead of 133% of my day. I do a lot more reading. I'll do more traveling, I'll focus more on cooking or I'm a musician, then I focus on that and this is maybe the wrong topic for a real estate show or whatever. Maybe you frame it how you want, but it's been hugely rewarding for me to make that transition to enjoy life daily. Don't procrastinate life till later. I'm 39 and I feel very, very fortunate to be in this spot now to where I'm expanding and I'm learning and I'm studying language and philosophy and it's making me so much better person than throwing another several million dollars on the balance sheet. So that's a new thought for me. I haven't said it on any podcast but that's really what I'm thinking about right now, a lot. James: Awesome. Awesome. And I have to say thank you to you, Will, because when I started in real estate, when I started doing multifamily, I have a lot of ideas and thoughts and I started writing my own blogs and I think you are one of the one who read one of my blog and you say good things about my blog and I was thinking, huh? Not bad. Will:  I remember that well. I'm like, who's this guy? This is really great.  James: I was like, Huh? Somebody like real, I mean, I think, at that time you were well known in the multifamily space and I was thinking, oh, not bad by somebody commented me. So that's why I started writing more blogs and I say, I need to write a book. English is not my first language but I mean, putting everything that I have in my mind into a book or on my blog helps me a lot because I don't know, for some reason I have to write it down and share it with others.  And especially when you have the knowledge, you know, what's the point of keeping it to yourself. Right? So you have to share it and I'm proud of all your work that you've been doing in with the children's treatment in the Philippines, which is, I think it's very, very fulfilling. I think that's something that nobody can take away from you. I mean, you can lose the money, you can lose the real estate, you can lose your entire life but that's something that, I don't know whether I'm talking for you or not, but for me, it feel like it follows you because that's Karma, right? You do good, things are going to go your way. Do you want to tell the listeners how to get hold of you? Will: Sure. I'm a big Facebook guy, so my id is  Will Crozier. I'm friends with James, but just hook up with me there. Two websites that are relevant for me is capxventures.com. That's kind of my multifamily arm. I am also hanging out @angelcapitalist.com. That's where I put some of my boring, boring blog posts; things that I cook up once in a while when I'm really bored. There's some of that there. How to connect with me is there. Some of the humanitarian projects. I'm also doing some angel investing in businesses that I really believe in. I loved not only real estate but any business, small business or larger so I've been investing in small businesses lately. There's one's called Propelio, maybe some people have heard about it so subscribe to that. Make me some more money, please. It's a great group of free real estate, especially single family educational content. Totally free. They're not selling you anything regarding that. So check it out. They're having a great academy there. I think those are the best ways to connect with me and kind of keep tabs on what I'm up to. And I love people to pitch. So if you have deals that you want to partner up with me on or a business that you need equity sometimes that, usually I like equity, but, yeah, reach out. James: Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's a clue, guys. I mean, if you want to pitch your business to Will, I mean, I can bet you he can look at financials and quickly tell you whether the deal works or not because it takes a lot of skill to really do deep value -add, and, you know, not many people can do it as well, but I think Will is a really good resource for that. So. All right. Thank you very much for coming on the show and happy to have you here. Thank you. Will: A lot of fun, James. Thanks.

James: Let's get started, 1 2 3. Hi listeners, welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. It's a podcast where we focus on how to achieve wealth through value add real estate investing. And today I have John Jacobus from, John, where are you from?  John: I'm from New York.  James: New York. Awesome. Awesome. Why not John, you talk to our listeners about, you know, about yourself and what you've been doing and we are going to be focusing a lot on a mobile home park investment and John is an expert in the operation of mobile home parks. And I thought of bringing him on board and learn that asset class through the level of details where we can learn and figure out, you know, why that would be a really good investment vehicle for everybody. So, John, why don't you go ahead and take a and tell our audience things that I would have missed out. John: Sure. Yeah. Thanks, James for having me on the show, it's really good to be here. As I said, I live in New York City but I invest in the southeast and the southwest. I got started in real estate investing in the early 2000s just doing single-family rentals and fix and flips, down in southern California. I'm originally from the San Francisco Bay area out on the west coast. And there was an equity opportunity down in southern California in the early part of this century. And with my dad, brother and I, we just got started. At the time, I was about 18, so I got started early and that really triggered an interest in investing and building wealth. And from there, just sort of followed my nose. So I got interested in stock market investing and just general assessing quality businesses. And then maybe four years ago, got interested in multifamily investing, being surrounded by skyscrapers and multifamily housing here in Manhattan. I poke my nose into that, got to know people, build the network and started my first multifamily opportunity as a limited partner in a project in Dallas, Texas. And since then, just sort of took incremental steps to become more active and raising capital. As you know, James, it's gotten pretty competitive in the apartment space, especially when you're out of state and don't have the ability to get on planes and meet brokers or property managers for tours. So seeing that it was a sort of impossible for me to compete with locals and the markets that I wanted to invest in, I stumbled across mobile home parks. And the more I learned about it, the more I poked my nose into it, the more I liked it. And I found that I could be competitive despite being located out of town. And for about the past year and a half now, I've been focusing full time on mobile home park investing. Now, I've acquired a portfolio of three parks and I'm looking to continue to scale where we find value. James: Awesome. So yeah, I mean mobile home parks, I mean, I do know some things about mobile home parks, but not to the level of details that you would know. Right. So can you explain to the listeners how does the whole, and at a high level, then we can go into a bit deeper into the details of mobile home parks. Why did you start with mobile home parks? Why not self- storage or office or retail warehouse and all that? John: Yeah, so I'm generally attracted to assets that are under the radar and have a kind of negative stigma with them. So I mentioned I am into investing in businesses on the stock market as well. And I tend to adopt a contrarian mindset where, you know, the more popular or something is in the media or among, you know, the masses, the less interested I become. And so, I think point number one that triggered me to look into mobile home parks was when I would attend these conferences of real estate investors or go to meetups or just hear about mobile home parks in the news, generally, there was no one really focusing on it. So amongst the thousands of people that were at a conference, there was maybe two or three people that were focused on mobile home parks.  And anytime you hear about mobile home parks in the news it seems to be negative. Nobody wants to brag about the fact that they're in the business full time because of the negative public stigma. To me, that's attractive because there are fewer competitors and especially when you dig into the details and see the fundamentals of the business, they're awfully attractive. So I think just generally the unpopular nature of the asset class was something that really appealed to me. And then, you know, the fact that it actually has appealing economics was even more of an attractive factor of the asset class. James: Okay. That's exactly why people can still find really good deals in mobile home parks where there's a lot of stigma tied to it, to mobile home parks and that could be just an opportunity. So I mean, I attended like a two days boot camp, on mobile home parks, like two, three years ago. And I thought it was a really good asset class to enter at the time because as you said, not many people, know mobile home parks, it's not out to the masses. There are not many gurus teaching mobile home park too even though they're teaching, they are not everywhere, right? They're not in the social media guys like what's happening now. And that's a huge stigma on mobile home parks. This is a bit cross kind of thing, right?  I mean that's what even the guy who was teaching that three-day boot camp was telling us, which can be a really good thing, right? I mean, I know the day we want to make sure that we have a good asset class where you know, it's very stable and able to predictably give you good cash and good returns at a high level. So let's talk about how do you make money out of buying a mobile home park? John: Yeah, so a number of ways. We focus on turnaround parks. So one of the areas, well, I said that mobile home park investing is unpopular relative to self- storage or apartments. There is some competition in the market so I still face very healthy competition in some of tier one, tier two markets, where the parks are closer to class B Class So, in an effort to find value, we've found that there's value currently in parks that are rough around the edges. So whether they have high vacancy rates, they have a high percentage of park owned homes, there may be an issue with the infrastructure, whether the sewer or the water. So those things that have a little bit of hair on the deal, those we're finding pretty attractively priced. So currently we focus on those turnarounds and that's where we're able to generate outsize returns, by digging into those problems and fixing them and either elevating the class of the asset or simply filling in vacancies or in some cases, like one of the projects that we have under ownership right now in San Antonio is we're actually expanding the size of the park.  So it's almost like a development deal, where we bought it for 20 units and we have plans to expand it by double. So those types of heavy lifts in terms of either turnaround operationally or expanding the footprint of the park, that's how we're finding ways to make money currently in the mobile home park business. James: Got It. Got It. And correct me if I'm wrong, so the mobile home park is basically you own the park, you don't own the housing units on top of it, right? John: So in an ideal world, and it really, depends on your perspective and what your preferences, but in the traditional way is that you just own the land and not the infrastructure. So you buy the land and you rent out the land to homeowners who pay you for the privilege of placing their home in your park. So in terms of operational cost standpoint, if you pursued that model, your operating costs are pretty low because you really just own the dirt and you're collecting rent for owner residents to use your land. Now, as you look more deals and get involved in the business, there are very few of those types of properties available because over the course of time, where residents come and go, ultimately you're going to find yourself as a park operator with some homes that you end up with, whether they're abandoned or sold to you or just come with the deal.  So there are models in the southeast, in particular where there are parks, where the park owners not only own the land and the infrastructure but also own all of the homes, in which case they're more or less operating an apartment complex just with a different look. There are individual units rather than stacked or adjacent to each other. And for those that can do it and have the model and the pricing is right and their strength in the market, that can be awfully attractive. But I think if you're looking to reduce the amount of time and energy to operate the park when you're a dirt owner, that's the lowest touch, lightest maintenance, I think most appealing and certainly most profitable model from an operating margin perspective. James: Yeah. It's like you have a big parking lot where people come and park their houses on top of it, I guess.   John: That's right. Yeah. Look at it. And it's great because you know, it's very high margin, but also you've got owners that are in your community so there's an alignment of interest. You've got people that have skin in the game because they own the home and they want to take care of the community. So that's a really unique aspect in contrast to apartments where, you know, apartments, you always have renters and just by nature, you know, they're going to treat their place as if they're renting it. And that's very different from the mindset and the behavior of owners who are in your community. It's a stakeholder group shared alignment of interests and it's a mindset shift and something that I really pursue and try to cultivate in our communities. James: Got It. Got It. Yeah. It's a very interesting model. It's a very simple concept. It does serve the affordable housing crisis that we have. Both apartments and mobile home park do serve it, even though it's two different, slightly different tenant base. One is one who wants to be a homeowner, even though it's a cheaper house, right? It's not like normal single-family houses but it's something that gives you a roof on top of your head and people liked that. And they have that community feeling when they are in that park so they are able to take care of it much better than like what you're saying in the apartment. You have leases turnover and you're 50% turnover per year and they leave the place every two years. So you have to go and do a turn around cause a lot more management intensive. How do you add value in mobile home parks? John: Yeah, so a couple of ways. So increasing the rents. So one of the appeals of being in the asset class is it's a very fragmented and somewhat a non-professionally managed business. So in contrast to apartments where you have, I think very high transparency into pricing, because you have things like Yardi Matrix and some of the other platforms, where you can get a very quick insight into what the market rates and comparables are, you don't have that level of transparency into pricing in mobile home parks. So there isn't this invisible hand of pushing up rents with inflation or with market forces because the industry is just sort of 30 to 40 years behind, relative to single-family and multifamily, in terms of just, you know, pricing transparency. So simply coming in and raising the rents to market rates or what should be market, is one way in which you can add value. Another that I described was expanding the footprint of rentable space. So in some cases, like our project in San Antonio, the former owner had given their residents very large lots, so they were almost twice as much as was required or determined as per the setback requirements. And so we found that if we simply move the homes over a bit and decreased the density by half, people would still be given pretty reasonable living space, we would be able to adhere to the setback requirements, and we would effectively double the rentable units within the property. So that's a way in which we're creating significant value by simply taking a look at the zoning requirements and the setbacks and seeing how we can reconfigure the lots well within the land to create new rentable space.  A third is just operating it more professionally. Again, this industry is not one where there's a very sophisticated network of third-party property management. And you know, it's largely mom and pops owner-operators who, you know, at this point in time probably own the property outright. They don't have any data on it and they don't really have a need to maximize or optimize the performance of the property and in which case they let things go. So they may run operating expenses high, where relative to where they should be, they may have their friends working for them doing maintenance and or day to day operations. And as a result, probably pay them at higher than market rates. So coming in and introducing professional practices and professional management, running it as a real business, that's a way to bring down operating costs and increase the NOI. Those are really the main drivers, you know, rent increase, increase the rentable space and push down operating costs, those are the things that we focus on and usually have the greatest impact in terms of value. James: So what about loans? I mean, you said a lot of these are mom and pop and fully, they own the whole thing, right? There is no debt on it. Are you able to get like seller financing deals? John: Yeah, so of the three properties that we own, two of the three are seller financed. So we've got interest-only loans for six years on those two. And it's awfully attractive not to have to go through a bank or an agency to go through the underwriting process. James: So you structure your non-recourse or recourse or how did you do that? John: Yeah, non-recourse loans on both of them. So really great, fairly low down payments. So we have a 75 loan to value on one and 80% loan to value on the other. And we even on the first one, we strung out the timing of the down payment so that we could minimize the use of upfront capital. So, yeah, just increased flexibility, ability to execute with speed and fairly attractive loan terms. Again, another appeal of, of the businesses, you have a lot of flexibility with the lending for some of these smaller to mid-sized parks. James: Yeah. Yeah, that makes it really interesting because recourse versus nonrecourse and loan terms, you know, in this case, you can structure this how you want, right? Because you're talking to mom and pop owner and how big are these parks? John: Yeah, so for us, so we have one in North Carolina, which is 75 spaces. That was the first one that we took down. And that was, we negotiated seller financing for six years at 75% loan to value. And then the second park, we closed the month after. That's in San Antonio, that's 20 spaces and we're currently in the process of expanding that to 49 spaces. So by the end of the summer, that's the one where we're reconfiguring the land and bringing in 29 new homes to expand the footprint of the park. And then the third one is in South Carolina and that's about 45 spaces. So in a 20 to 75 space range, that's where we're finding opportunity value and that's about in the zone where you can negotiate seller financing. You know, it's good and bad, the financing.  One, the pool of capital and the liquidity and access to the debt market is not at the level that multifamily is. So one of the nice things about multifamily is, you know, through Fannie and Freddie and other conduit lenders, you just have masses of capital available to you and it's an industrialized process to go through and get financing for these projects. That type of infrastructure doesn't exist really to the same extent with mobile home parks. So you know, on one end, financing can be really difficult, especially for the smaller parks. But what that affords you is the opportunity to negotiate more flexible and creative deals, through seller financing. Because ultimately, and in many cases, sellers, they don't have a choice. So if they are really interested in selling, buyers can't get financing through traditional sources and so they're sort of left with one choice, which is to carry a note. So, you know, in some cases we celebrate the fact that we can do this stuff, but in other cases we kind of bang our heads against the wall and say, if only we could go to Fannie or Freddie and get this financed, that, you know, very long term, low-cost rates. James: So you are in New York and scattered all over the nation. How are these parks being managed, who's managing them? John: So we have onsite managers for all three of our parks. And for all intents and purposes, they carry out the actions that we dictate. So all of them either live onsite in the park or live very close by and most of the time, we have daily calls with the managers to tell them what to do. Now their level of sophistication and their ability does not rival what you're accustomed to in multifamily because you know, in multifamily you've got a level of professionalism and sophistication that just isn't there yet in the mobile home parks that we deal in. So for us, it's just, we've got boots on the ground. Their jobs are primarily focused on collections. So making sure that people are paying rent on time, posting pay or quit notices or facilitating evictions, coordinating repairs to the extent that we need to bring in someone to fix the plumbing, for example. And then to the extent that we're filling in new units, they're coordinating showings with prospective residents to come and see homes and see if they want to sign a lease. So that's really where their job is focused on. So it's not a full-time gig really for any of them, it's part-time income for them and it's in peaks and valleys. So depending upon the activity, whether that's new rentals that we have, rental units available or repairs that are happening, they may be either really busy or find themselves with not much to do. James: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I see they're not very highly sophisticated people. They are basically, you know, house-owner. So you know, mobile home users, on how people are paying, then we don't expect a lot from them in terms of management. I mean, even in multifamily. Yeah. I mean, we have a lot of professional management, but still, you have to manage them, right? So much moving parts, there's so many expenses, so much of repair and maintenance that need to be taken care of, which doesn't exist in mobile home parks. Because mobile home parks, supposedly, you know, you're just looking at the land and collecting rent. Looking at some common area, usually this kind of thing. So I think it would balance out in terms of, you know, the amount of time that you need to spend, especially for operators. 20:56inaudible] me who's managing our own property management and also people who are not having their own property management, their own active asset managers of apartment, failing to be involved very, very closely. You can't just go to the party. I mean they'll take it to somewhere else. John: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Great. You know, and I think that's an important point that a lot of people miss. You know, going to the boot camp that you mentioned, I also attended, I think one of the things, I think the boot camp, people who leave the boot camp are fairly transparent about what it's like day, day in, day out. But for whatever reason, I talked to a lot of people that are interested in the mobile home park industry and one of the appeals to them is this sense that it's passive. And I would say, you know, it is very hands-on in the projects that we're involved with that we're turning around and trying to increase the value. We are pretty close to being full-time property managers as opposed to seeing the checks, you know, come in and you know, loving the passive income. So that's fine for us. I mean we like getting our hands dirty and taking action and being involved but that's one thing I would caution people about for whatever reason. I think headline news suggests that this is a passive income source and that's absolutely not the case at all when you're dealing with value add, you know, medium size mobile home parks. James: Yeah. I mean if you want really passive and you invest passively or [22:28unintelligible] I don't think there's any business, which is really, really passive in real estate, right? Especially if you're an active operator and you want to make the most money. If you want to be at the top of the food chain, then you have to do work. If you don't do work, you can buy the deal and all that but the thing is you've got no control on the returns that are being made and being generated unless the market is getting up. There a lot of guys out there who are making, who are boasting themselves that they made a lot of money real estate without doing work. But it's actually the market is doing the work for you.  John: Right, exactly. James:  So this is the elephant in the room, right? So how're the returns compared to multifamily class B and C in mobile home parks? Because you have worked a lot on the capital raising side on the multifamily, so you can see a lot of operational stuff on that side compared to mobile home park, you know, how does that compare to..? John: Yeah, so I'd say just general rule of thumb, it all depends, deal specific. I know that there are, you know, opportunities that you come across in apartments, they get into the 20% IRR. But generally speaking, I think hurdle rate for me, for apartment complexes, is about 15% IRR over say a five year holds. Whereas the hurdle rate for me for mobile home parks is about 20% IRR. So I'd say it's a 5% difference in terms of a return premium there that I'm seeing and that I'm using as a guideline for allocating capital in my projects. James: Got It. What about cash flow on a yearly basis? What do you expect between these two asset classes? John: It's about the same. So whereas, you know, you may expect an 8% yield a cash on cash for an apartment complex, larger apartment complex. We're looking at sort of 10 to low teens on cash on cash return. James:  Are you syndicating this deal or you're doing this on your own? John: No. So we use our own capital for all three of our projects and with this fourth in the pipeline. So, I work with other partners. There are about four of us that work together and to date, we've only used our own capital and that's intentional. We think we're still learning. We want to build a track record and we really want to get our arms around these heavy turnarounds so that in the future, we can raise outside capital and go to market with credibility and feel confident taking other people's money to do projects. So yeah, to date, it's just our own capital that we've used. So we're all active partners and no syndication. James: So you could do a Jv type of thing.  John: Exactly.  James:  Okay. So you're saying when you're doing syndicate, you know, I mean, if you do syndication then you have to make sure you allocate some money for your passive investors as well from [25:24inaudible] whatever you guys are putting in I guess. So you're saying cash flow wise is almost similar, is that what I heard? John: So like 3 to 5% premium, cash on cash return. Whereas the IRR was about 5%. That's what we're seeing. We see a significant portion of the overall return allocated towards the equity, the increase in equity because we are doing a turnaround. So you know, the cashflow is nice, but a majority of our returns are coming through the boost because we are fixing problems, elevating the class of the property or expanding it to generate significantly more income. James: Got It. Got It. Got It. I mean audience just want to let you guys know as I wrote my book, you know, as a passive investor, you can choose any asset class, right? It's not only multifamily. I know multifamily is a lot of, what popular names nowadays is more famous than anybody or anything else. I mean, yeah, it is doing very well. There's a black swan effect of people become renters, you know, just demographic shift too. You know, people becoming renters. But there are also other asset classes like mobile home parks, self-storage, office industry. There's a lot of different asset class in that people are doing very well, right? Like, I mean, if you as a passive investor can make a couple of percents more compared to multifamily and you can find a good operator who will give you the returns on the backend you can always definitely do that. The key thing is to diversify your investment from what I see, even though I only do multifamily but I just think that, you know, wearing a bigger hat, my thought process, I think that's the message for passive investors, right? So the question for you is, you're talking about the 5% premium with the IRR and that's where the value adds are being generated, I guess. Right? And how do you plan to exit? I mean, are you going to sell to someone else? Is there like a big reap that is coming in? John: Yeah, so for us, I mean, we like buying and we don't ever want to sell. So I say that in air quotes, you know, we'll own it forever. But for us, the exit is really through a cash-out refinance. For us, we find these smaller to medium size parks where we think that we can elevate the class of the property. So take it just under a million dollars and you know, at a low vacancy and augment it such that it can be financed through, either a conduit loan or a Fannie or Freddie debt. And at that point, we will have created sufficient equity that we can more or less pull out all of our capital that we've put in. And then when we're done, we've got long term, low-cost debt on the property and then we'll just collect the cash and go on and do our next thing.  So that's the vision for all three of these properties is to execute the heavy turn of the value add in the first three to four years and then refi, take out all our capital and then go rinse and repeat and do that elsewhere. Because, I mean there's a very stable asset class. We liked the business. Affordable housing, we think is going to be a thing for the very long term. We like owning productive cash flowing assets and so we don't have any desire to sell now. So someone comes along and gives us an offer we can't refuse, well, we've got to, you know, do the math and see if it makes sense. But we're definitely not looking to go in, execute a turn and then exit to other private equity owners. James: Very interesting. I mean that's what value add keeps you in commercial and that's the real power of commercial real estate. The other day, I was talking to a passive investor. He said, hey, this guy is giving me, you know, 8% cash on cash flow and that's it. Right? What about the back end? He said, oh, I don't care what the backend. I say, well then you can get much higher cash flow on mobile home parks. So if cash flow is the only thing that you're looking at, you know, you shouldn't look at multifamily alone. Or maybe you should look at 'A' type, 'A' class multifamily in a very strong location near to core urban center as what I call a core type of deal, right? You really don't have to do just multifamily, you can do a lot of other asset classes, right?  The power in commercial real estate is actually on the cash flow plus the backend. The equity growth that you generate through value add, right? So that's why I named this podcast as value add real estate investing, because that is the gs of commercial real estate, right. Otherwise, I mean, unless you are rich or unless you are a big family office where you want to preserve your wealth; you're not investing, you're preserving your wealth. You're making slightly more than your inflation. Say inflation is 3%, you're making 8% cash flow. There's nothing on the back end, then you can go and do, you know, that kind of deal. The majority of people, people want the value-add component where it grows on the backend. John: Sure. Yeah. I mean, we'd love to sell to those types of buyers. The ones that are looking at this squeaky clean, I mean, we'll do the work, we'll create the equity and then, you know, for those that just want to collect the rents, we're happy to sell for a premium. James: Yeah, there's a lot of syndicators who buy the type of deal where you just cash flow because they get fees. Right? But for the passive investors and you don't understand, you're just going to get a cash flow, right. And some times people are very intrigued by the cash flow concept. Suddenly they come out from work, you know, working w two for their whole lives. Oh, there's a cash flow coming in monthly, you're going to jump on it, which is okay. It's okay for some people, but there are much better alternatives out there. Where you can grow your wealth as well on top of preserving your cash against the inflation. So that's good. So, how are you finding these deals because you are New York, how do you find it? John: Yeah, so we explore all channels. So we do cold calling, we network with other owner-operators. We had done some fairly extensive direct mailing. We no longer really do that much. We talked to brokers, we go to industry conferences, we look at Facebook, Craigslist, eBay, a variety of other digital platforms. Really, we try to cast as wide a net as possible because again, this industry is really fragmented, not as industrialized as, you know, apartments are. You'd be hard pressed to find significant deal flow on a loop net, for example, for mobile home parks. So we just try to put ourselves in the flow of deals in as many instances as possible. Which means that we look at a lot of deals, we say no to most of them and it's very structured and haphazard. But, I mean, the three deals that we've sourced so far have been through relationships. So whether it's through meetups, we've met people and they needed to refer a deal because they had other priorities that they were going after. So despite, you know, we've done the work and built out databases of owners, throughout the country and, you know, done the cold calling, done the direct mail, despite all that time and energy put into revving up that engine, ultimately today, it's come down to relationships with other people. James: I mean, it is so fragmented, right? It's just so hard to go and get to a broker and buy a right deal. Right. And daily, even in mobile home parks there to work hard for it. But that's okay. I think you're able to find it, which is really awesome. John: Yeah. Yeah. And again, it's good and bad. It's hard work to do it because it's so fragmented. But at the same time, that's one of the reasons why there's value there because you've got really mispriced opportunities because the market isn't as efficient. So I mean, I'll take the hard work any day if it means you can still get good deals. James: Got It. What about the depreciation or tax benefit of mobile home parks? How does that compare to the apartments? John: Yeah, so with those parks where you're owning the land and the infrastructure, so you don't have quite as a large depreciable base as you do in multifamily. One good thing is that you have a condensed depreciation timeline. So while the depreciable base is not as high in terms of absolute dollar value, you can take a decent material dollar value for the depreciable base and depreciate it over sort of a 12 to 17-year timeframe instead of the, I don't remember the exact number.. James:  27.5 John: Yeah, 27 and a half year timeframe. So what you find yourself in a situation is that in the first sort of 10 to 15 years, you have about the same depreciation benefits and taxable losses that you would experience in multifamily. But then after sort of the 10 to 15-year mark, you run out of the depreciation and then, you know, you find yourself in with a larger taxable income. James: Well, I didn't know that that is shorter than multifamily, is it 12 to 17 years? John: Yeah. About that because it's not real property that you're depreciating. These are the utilities, so [35:11crosstalk] and the light posts and the roads and I mean this is equipment, essentially, depreciating. With the schedule, you apply a different shorter schedule depreciation. Then you do the actual structures, James: You're not paying for the whole, I mean, you're paying for the land plus the utility infrastructure. Infrastructure maybe 10% of the overall cost, is that right? John: Roughly. Yeah, it depends. It depends on what your infrastructure looks like. But it's still material; in most cases, it's material amounts that you can depreciate, but it accelerated, right? So now while you may have a lower absolute dollar value of an asset that you can appreciate, you can do it over a much faster time so it's accelerated, which means your yearly depreciation charge is higher and can also be a significant portion. But again, that expires faster than you find in multifamily. James: Yeah. Yeah. But even in multifamily, I don't think anybody owns it for 12, 17 years. I mean, on syndicated deals, I guess. John: Right. James: Interesting. So, okay. So yeah, usually I think in commercial office industrial, is it 39 years? Multifamily residential, it's usually 27.5. And you're saying some of the utilities or infrastructure in the mobile home parks minus the land is 12 to 17 years. Okay. Yeah. Very interesting. So, John: Yeah, so not quite as attractive from a tax basis. Look, after tax returns, I think you still find yourself in a very favorable situation because you know, the overall returns generated by the property are at a premium. And so even if you are paying taxes on that, you're after tax returns still tend to trend above what you would find in other commercial... James:  Are you able to get a negative K1 in the first few years? John: Yeah, yeah, definitely. James: I mean, let's say after value add is done, let's say after value-add is done stabilized, do you still get negative K1? John: I'd say, I mean deals specific, but it would be reasonable to expect that for, you know, the initial years of operation for sure. James: Okay. Okay. Yeah. For our listeners, I mean K1 is the form that everybody gets when you're invested in a deal where it shows what is your paper loss or a paper gain. But usually most of the times, it's the loss. Because your mind is seeing the mortgage or you're minusing the depreciation of the asset and also you're minusing the interest on the loan that you are doing. But in this case, I think, John's case, there is a lot of it is seller finance so that still be interest. Yeah. You still have interests, right? Because for your IOS and all that.  Interesting. So where do you think you want to grow from here in mobile home parks? John: Yeah. So continuing to scale. As I mentioned before, we're probably right on the cusp of taking in outside capital. We'd like to complete the turnaround with the three properties that we have under our ownership now so that we can prove out the concept, you know, go to market credibly with we've executed, have you turn arounds. We did it successfully and just have the inner confidence to be able to go and take outside capital. So look, we're trying to find value and when value presents itself, we'll act. We don't have any stated goals in terms of the number of units that we want to acquire. We do want to get larger. We wanted to do, you know, more complex, more interesting projects. Well, it's hard work, it's also really fun and we find a lot of sizes faction and turning around some pretty beat up and run down communities and augmenting the sense of community, beautifying the neighborhood and again, solving a really meaningful problem, which is the lack of affordable housing. So we get a lot of satisfaction and find fun and interest in solving these problems and continuing to grow the portfolio. James: Yeah. And how frequent do you go and visit these parks? John: So I make trips about quarterly. So I was just in San Antonio in April and was out there for a week and then flew back through the Carolinas to see the other projects. And in South Carolina, North Carolina, I'm going back to the Carolinas in June. So about, you know, every two to three months, I'm a boot on the ground, either looking at deals in the pipeline, checking up on progress on existing turnarounds or, you know, in some cases, we've got to get state licensing in order to do what we want to do in terms of lot infill. So for example, you know, I was in Austin in January to sit for the dealers licensing exam. So in order to execute the law and fill that we want to do in San Antonio, we need to be licensed dealers in order to buy homes directly from the manufacturer. So we were in Austin doing that. The same thing is happening in June. We're getting a dealer's license in North Carolina to be able to execute these large turnarounds. So between checking up on projects, chasing new deals and getting whatever required licensing we need in states, we're on the road a lot and touring around the southwest and the southeast. James: Yeah. Yeah, that's very interesting. How are you getting dealer license to turn it on these properties and how are you finding a lot of fun in doing a lot of value? That's where you make the money. To solve problems that other people don't want to solve.  John: Exactly.  James: Right. So, and what's the point of buying a cash flowing deal?  John: Right, right, exactly. You know, in maybe 30, 40 years from now, great. I'll do those and just collect the rent checks and that'll be fine. But in the meantime, you know, I'm still relatively young, hungry. I want to make an impact. And so that's where value add is really where the opportunity is. James: I don't know, I mean, I think if you didn't want to work hard, I mean, I know if people want to get into real estate, but just so many people either, they don't want to take action or they think the problem is too hard or they just didn't want to put their mind into solving that problem. And that's where the barrier to entry comes in. Not many people want to solve the problem. And people like you who are in New York, you know, is solving the problem like in San Antonio and North Carlina, it's hard work but that's fun. And you make money out of it and it's generational wealth too, right? Because after you refi, you take out your money out, it's your cash flowing for your whole life. So you don't have to answer to anybody since you're not syndicating anyway, so that's awesome. So let's go to a bit more personal side. Why do you do what you do? John: Yeah. So again, I think it's just fun. I'm the kind of person that I don't think I'm ever going to retire and sit on a beach or golf all day. I like to be active and doing things that are interesting. I liked doing challenging things and so, you know, for me, I just get a deep sense of satisfaction in doing hard things and really doing those hard things with teams of people. So I like surrounding myself with partners and binding together as a team to solve challenges that are just intensely satisfying for me. James: Got It. Got It. Is there daily habits that you practice that you think has made you more successful? John: Yeah, so I would say I'm a distance runner. So I'm an athlete, I've been running marathons for what seems like forever. And what that practice is instilled in me is a couple of things that have really translated directly into investment success. One is just the concept of compounding. So logging miles every day, over long periods of time. You know, maybe in a week or a month, I don't notice the progress, but over years of repeated activity and continuing to grind it out despite pain or cold weather or you know, emotional blocks that would, you know, would it difficult for me to want to move forward, I keep powering through it and ultimately it's led to a lot of success in my running endeavors. Implying that same approach of compounding and continuous daily incremental action in the investing space has really helped position me for success in investing there too. James: Got It. Any advice that you want to give to newbies who want to get started in the mobile home park operation or investment in the business? John: Sure. I'd say definitely learn about the nuances of the industry. Take the time to not only attend boot camp or something similar, but talk to other owner-operators about the details of owning and operating parks. You know, it's not enough to just read materials or listening to podcasts, I encourage people to do that, I do it myself, but really get to know owner operators because there are a lot of nuances about running or even finding parks that are glossed over or not adequately covered in podcasts, reading material or boot camps. So I'd say education, definitely take the time. I mean, I took about a year to really get my head around, you know, what is this industry like and what is it going to take to succeed? So education and then just get started. I mean, there's a lot of reasons to say no and to walk away from opportunities. Again, with mobile home parks being kind of 30 to 40 years behind the times relative to multifamily. There's just the nature of the asset classes, there always are going to be problems with these assets because they're not usually professionally managed and they all have some level of hair or warts on them. Don't let that scare you, that should inspire you to learn about which problems are fixable in which are not; where you should run away quickly and where you should dig in. And really find an opportunity to solve problems and create value. So I think those are my two best pieces of advice. Just get educated and then learn to get started and get going. James: Awesome. Hey, John, why don't you tell our audience about yourself and where to get hold of you or if they want to contact you? John: Yeah, so my website has my contact details. So Loan Juniper Capital is the name of my firm. We own and operate mobile home parks in the southeast and southwest. That's loanjunipercapital.com. There you can find my email address, my phone number and I'm on Bigger Pockets as well, I'm all over Facebook as well and the mobile home park forums and multifamily forums in Texas. So I try to be active and get my face out there and I do a fair amount of attending conferences in the southeast and the southwest too. James: Awesome. Thanks for joining us today. I'm very sure that you added so much value. You know, I like to talk about different asset classes such as mobile home parks, other than just multifamily. Because as I said, opportunities everywhere. You have to find the right guys to partner with to know or to learn from. So, absolutely, I had a lot of value. Thanks for coming to the show, John. John: Yeah, thanks for having me, James. This was fun. Appreciate it. James: All right. Okay. Bye. Bye.

James: Hey listeners, this is James Kandasamy. Welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast. Achieve Wealth Podcast focuses on value at real estate investing across different commercial asset class and we focus on interviewing a lot of operators so that you know, I can learn and you can learn as well. So today I have Omar Khan who has been on many podcasts but I would like to go into a lot more details into is underwriting and market analysis that he has. So Omar is a CFA, has more than 10 years investing across real estate and commodities. He has experience in the MNA transaction worth 3.7 billion, Syndicated Lodge a multi-million deal across the U.S. and he recently closed a hundred thirty plus something units in Jacksonville, Florida. Hey Omar, welcome to the show.  Omar: Hey, thank you James. I'm just trying to work hard to get to your level man. One of these days.  James: That's good. That's a compliment. Thank you Omar. So why not you tell our audience anything that I would have missed out about you and your credibility. Omar: I think you did a good job. If I open my mouth my credibility might go down.  James: Yes, that's good. That's good. So let's go a bit more details. So you live in Dallas, right? I think you're, I mean if I've listened to you on other podcasts and we have talked before the show you came from Canada to Dallas and you bought I think you have been looking for deals for some time right now. And you recently bought in Jacksonville. Can you tell about the whole flow in a quick summary?  Omar: Oh, yes. Well the quick summary is man that you know, when you're competing against people who's operating strategy is a hope and a prayer, you have to look [inaudible01:54] Right?  James: Absolutely.  Omar: I mean, and hey just to give you a full disclosure yesterday there was actually a smaller deal in Dallas. It's about a hundred and twenty something units. And I mean we were coming in at 10-point some million dollars. And just to get into best and final people were paying a million dollars more than that, and I'm not talking just a million dollars more than I was trying to be cheap. The point was, at a million dollar more than that there is freaking no way you could hit your numbers, like mid teens that are already 10% cash-on-cash. Like literally, they would have to find a gold mine right underneath their apartment. So my point is it's kind of hard man. But what are you going to do about it? Right?  James: Yes. Yes. Omar: Just have to keep looking. You have to keep finding. You have to keep being respectful of Brokers' times. Get back to them. You just keep doing the stuff. I mean you would do it every day pretty much.  James: Yes. Yes. I just think that there's so much capital flow out there. They are a lot of people who expect less, lower less return. Like you say you are expecting mid teen IRR, there could be someone there out there expecting 10 percent IRR and they could be the one who's paying that $1,000,000. Right? And maybe the underwriting is completely wrong, right? Compared to-- I wouldn't say underwriting is wrong. I mean, I think a lot of people-- Omar: Well you can say that James you don't have to be a nice person. You can say it.  James: I'm just saying that everybody thinks, I mean they absolutely they could be underwriting wrong, too or they may be going over aggressively on the rent growth assumption or property tax growth assumption compared to what you have. At the same time they could have a much lower expectation on-- Omar: Yes. I mean let's hope that's the case because if they have a higher expectation man, they're going to crash and burn. James: Absolutely. Omar: I hope, I really hope they have a low expectation.  James: Yes. Yes. I did look at a chart recently from Marcus and Millichap the for Texas City where they show us how that's like a San Antonio, Austin, Dallas and Houston and if you look at Dallas, you know, the amount of acceleration in terms of growth is huge, right? And then suddenly it's coming down. I mean all markets are coming down slightly right now, but I'm just hopefully, you know, you can see that growth to continue in all this strong market. Omar: No, no, don't get me wrong, when I said somebody paid more than 1 million just to get into best and final, that has no merits on, that is not a comment on the state of the Dallas Market. I personally feel Dallas is a fantastic Market. Texas overall, all the big four cities that you mentioned are fantastic but my point is there is nothing, no asset in the world that is so great that you can pay an infinite price for it. And there's nothing so bad in the world that if it wasn't for a cheap enough price, you wouldn't want to buy it. James: Correct, correct.  Omar: I mean that that's what I meant. I didn't mean it was a comment on the state of the market.  James: Got it. Got it. So let's come to your search outside of the Texas market, right? So how did you choose, how did you go to Jacksonville?  Omar: Well, number one the deal is I didn't want to go to a smaller city. I'm not one of those guys, you know in search of [inaudible05:11] I find everybody every time somebody tells me I'm looking for a higher cap rate, I was like, why do you like to get shot every time you go to the apartment building? You want to go to the ghetto? Do you want somebody to stab you in the stomach? Is that because that's-- James: That's a lot of deals with a higher cap rate. Omar: Yes. There's a lot because I was like man, I can find you a lot of deals with really high cap rates.  James: Yes. Omar: But you might get stabbed. Right?  James: And they are set class 2 which has higher cap rate.  Omar: Oh, yes, yes, yes.  James: So I think people just do not know what a cap rate means or how-- Omar: Yes and people you know, all these gurus tell you today, I mean let's not even get into that right. So specifically for us like I wanted to stand at least a secondary, tertiary market [inaudible 05:48] I mean like, any City over at least eight, nine hundred thousand at least a million, somewhere in that range, right?  James: Okay. Omar: And specifically look, after Texas it was really Florida. Because look, you could do the whole Atlanta thing. I personally, I love Atlanta but it's a toss-up between Atlanta and say either of the three metros in Florida or Jackson. Lords in Central Florida, Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando. You know based on my [inaudible06:11] experience I was doing this stuff portfolio management anyways, I kind of ran smaller factor model for all the cities where I took in different sort of factors about 30 different factors. And then you know, you kind of just have to do all the site tours and property visits to make all those relationships. And what I see across the board was, I mean Tampa has a great Market, but for the same quality product for the same demographic of tenant, for the same say rent level, Tampa was 20 to 25% more expensive on a per pound basis.  James: Okay. Omar: Let's say a Jacksonville, right? Orlando is kind of in the middle where the good deals were really expensive or rather the good areas were a bit too dear for us and the bad areas were nicely priced and everybody then tells you, "Oh it's Florida." right? James: No, no. Omar: But what they don't tell you is there's good and bad parts of Florida-- James: There's submarket. Yes Yes. Omar: Right? So you got to go submarket by submarket. And then lastly what we were basically seeing in Jacksonville was, it was very much a market which like for instance in Atlanta and seeing parts of say Orlando and Tampa, you can have to go block by block street by street. But if you're on the wrong side of the street, man you are screwed, pretty much. James: Absolutely. Omar: But Jacksonville to a certain degree, obviously not always, was very similar to Dallas in the sense that there is good areas and then there's a gradual shift into a not as a [inaudible07:29] Right? So basically what you kind of had to do was name the submarket properly and if you had a higher chance of success than for instance [inaudible07:38] right down to the street corner, right? And then like I said the deals we were seeing, the numbers just made more sense in Jacksonville for the same level of demographic, for the same type of tenant, for the same income level, for the same vintage, for the same type of construction. So Jacksonville, you know, we started making relationships in all the markets but Jacksonville is where we got the best bang for our buck and that's how we moved in.  James: Okay. So I just want to give some education to the listener. So as what Omar and I were talking about, not the whole city that you are listening to is hot, right. So, for example, you have to really look at the human capital growth in certain parts of the city, right? So for example in Dallas, not everywhere Dallas is the best area to invest. You may have got a deal in Dallas but are you buying in it in a place where there's a lot of growth happening? Right? Like for example, North Dallas is a lot of growth, right? Compared to South Dallas, right? In Atlanta that's I-20 that runs in between Atlanta and there's a difference between, you cross the I-20 is much, you know a lot of price per pound or price per door. It's like a hundred over door and below Atlanta is slightly lower, right? So it's growing, but it may grow it may not grow. I mean right now the market is hot, everything grows. So you can buy anywhere and make money and you can claim that, hey I'm making money, but as I say market is-- Omar: [inaudible09:03] repeatable [inaudible09:04] By the way I look at it, is hey is this strategy repeatable? Can I just rinse and repeat this over and over and over? James: Correct. Correct. I mean it depends on sponsor's cases. While some sponsors will buy because price per dollar is cheap, right? But do they look at the back end of it when the market turns, right? Some sponsors will be very very scared to buy that kind of deal because we always think about, what happens when the market turns, right? So. Omar: Yes, James and the other thing that I've seen is that, look, obviously, we're not buying the most highest quality product. James: Correct. Omar: But what I've seen is a lot of times when people focus on price per unit, say I will go for the cheapest price per unit. Well, there's a reason why it's cheap because you know, there's a reason why Suzuki is cheaper than a Mercedes. Now, I'm not saying you have to go buy a Mercedes because sometimes you only need to buy a Suzuki. Right? I mean that's the way it is, but you got to have to be cognizant that just because something is cheap doesn't mean it's more valuable and just because something is more expensive doesn't mean it's less than.  James: Correct. Correct. Correct. And price per door is one I think one of the most flawed metrics that people are talking about. Price per door and also how many doors do people own? Omar: And also cap rate, man. [inaudible 10:09]  James: Cap rate, price per door and-- Omar: How many doors have you got? James: How many doors do you have? Three metrics is so popular, there is so much marketing happening based on these three metrics. I mean for me you can take it and throw it into the trash paper, right? Omar: The way I look at it is I would much rather have one or two really nice things, as opposed to 10 really crappy things.  James: Correct. Correct. Correct. Like I don't mind buying a deal in Austin for a hundred a door compared to buying a same deal in a strong Market in another-- like for example, North Atlanta, right? I would rather buy it in Austin. It's just different market, right? So. Absolutely different. So price per door, number of doors and cap rate, especially entry cap rate, right? I went back and cap rate you can't really predict, right? So it's a bit hard to really predict all that. But that's-- Omar: Yes but my point is with all of these things you have, and when people tell me cap rate I'm like, look, are you buying stabilized properties? Because that's the only time you can apply this. James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Otherwise, what you really going to have to look at is how much upside do I have because at the end of the day, you know this better than I do. Regardless of what somebody says, what somebody does, everything is valued on [inaudible11:15] James: Correct. Omar: Pretty much. You can say it's a low cap rate and the broker will tell you, well yes the guy down the street bought it for a hundred and fifty thousand a unit so you got to pay me a hundred fifty, right? And then that's the end of the conversation.  James: Yes. Omar: Literally, I mean that is the end of the conversation, right? What are you going to do about it?  James: Yes. Correct. I mean the Brokers they have a fiduciary responsibility to market their product as much as possible, but I think it's our responsibility as Sponsor to really underwrite that deal to make sure that-- Omar: Oh yes. James: --what is the true potential. Omar: And look, to be honest with you sometimes the deal, that is say a hundred and fifty thousand dollars a unit might actually be a better deal-- James: Oh absolutely. Omar: [inaudible 11:51] fifty thousand dollars a unit. I mean, you don't know till you run the numbers. James: Correct. Absolutely. Absolutely. I've seen deals which I know a hundred sixty a door and still have much better deal than something that you know, I can buy for 50 a door, right? So. You have to underwrite all deals. There's no such thing as cap rate or no, such thing as price per door. I mean you can use price per door to a certain level.  Omar: [inaudible 12:15] in this market what is the price per door? That's the extent of what you might potentially say, in the submarket.  James: Correct. Omar: All the comps are trading at 75,000 a door. Why is this at 95 a door?  James: Yes. Omar: That's it.  James: I like to look at price per door divided by net square, rentable square footage because that would neutralize all measurements. Omar: Yes, see, you know we had a little back and forth on this, I was talking to my Analyst on this but my point is that I would understand [inaudible 12:46] at least to my mind. Okay. I'm not, because I know a lot of Brokers use it.  James: Sure. Omar: In my mind that would apply to say, Commercial and Industrial properties more. But any time I've gone to buy or say rent an apartment complex, I never really go and say like, hmm the rent is $800. It's 800 square feet. Hmm on a per square foot basis. I'm getting one dollar and then I go-- James: No, no, no, I'm not talking about that measurement. I'm talking about price per door divided by square footage rentable because that would neutralize between you have like whether you have a lot of smaller units, or whether you have a larger unit and you have to look-- but you have to plot it based on location. Right? So. Omar: Yes, so you know as you get into those sort of issues right? Well, is it worth more than that corner?  James: Yes. Yes. You're right. Yes. You have to still do rent comes and analyze it.  Omar: Yes. James: So let's all-- Omar: I mean look, I get it, especially I think it works if you know one or two submarkets really well. Then you can really-- James: Correct. Correct. That's like my market I know price because I know the market pretty well. I just ask you this information, just tell me price per door. How much average square feet on the units and then I can tell you very quickly because I know the market pretty well. Omar: Because you know your Market, because you already know all the rents. You already know [crosstalk13:57] James: [crosstalk13:57] You have to know the rent. I said you have to build that database in your mind, on your spreadsheet to really underwrite things very quickly. So that's good. So let's go back to Jacksonville, right? So you looked-- what are the top three things that you look at when you chose Jacksonville at a high level in terms of like the macroeconomic indicators? Omar: Oh see, I wasn't necessarily just looking at Jackson. What I did is I did a relative value comparison saying what is the relative value I get in Jacksonville versus a value say I get in a Tampa, Atlanta or in Orlando and how does that relatively compare to each other?  James: So, how do you measure relative-- Omar: What I did is for instance for a similar type of say vintage, right? Say a mid 80s, mid 70s vintage, and for a similar type of median income which was giving me a similar type of rent. Say a median income say 40 Grand a year or 38 to 40 Grand a year resulting in an average rate of about $800. Right? And a vintage say mid 70s, right? Board construction. Now what am I getting, again this is very basic maths, right? This is not I'm not trying to like make up.  James: Yes. Absolutely. Omar: A model out of this, right? So the basic math is, okay what is the price per unit I'm getting in say, what I have a certain crime rating, I have a certain median income rating and I have a certain amount of growth rating. And by growth I mean not just some market growth, [inaudible 15:21] are Elementary Schools nearby? Are there shopping and amenities nearby? Is Transportation accessible, you know, one or two highways that sort of stuff. Right? So for those types of similar things in specific submarkets, [inaudible 15:33] Jacksonville had three, Tampa had two and Orlando had three and Atlanta had four, right? What is the average price per unit I'm facing for similar type of demographics with a similar type of rent profile? With similar type of growth profile I mean you just plot them on a spreadsheet, right? And with the similar type of basically, you know how they performed after 2008 and when I was looking at that, what I was looking at again, is this precise? No, it's not a crystal ball. But these are just to wrap your head around a certain problem. Right? You have to frame it a certain way.  James: Okay. Omar: And what I was seeing across the board was that it all boils down to when you take these things because at the end of the day, all you're really concerned is what price am I getting this at, right? Once you normalize for all the other things, right? James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Right? And what I was seeing was just generally Jacksonville, the pricing was just like I said compared to Tampa which by the way is a fantastic market, right? But pricing was just 15 to 20% below Tampa. I mean Tampa pricing is just crazy. I mean right now I can look at the flyer and tell you their 60s and mid 70s vintage is going for $130,000 $120,000 a unit in an area where the median income is 38 to 40 Grand. James: Why is that? Omar: I don't know. It's not one of this is that the state Tampa is actually a very good market, okay. Let's be [inaudible 16:47] it's very good market. It's a very hot market now. People are willing to pay money for that. Right? So now maybe I'm not the one paying money for it, but there's obviously enough people out there that are taking that back. So. James: But why is that? Is it because they hope that Tampa is going to grow because-- Omar: Well, yes. Well if Tampa doesn't grow they're all screwed James. James: No, but are they assuming that growth or are they seeing something that we are not seeing? Because, if people are earning 30, 40 thousand median household income and the amount of apartment prices that much, they could be some of the metrics that they are seeing that they think-- Omar: Well, yes. Tampa's growth has been off the charts in the past few years, right? James: Okay. Okay. Omar: So what look-- first of all this is the obvious disclaimer is I don't know what I don't know. Right? So I don't know what everybody else is looking at. Our Tampa's growth has been off the charts, there is a lot of development and redevelopment and all that stuff happening in the wider metro area. So people are underwriting five, six, seven, eight percent growth.  James: Okay. So the growth is being-- Omar: No, the growth is very-- look the growth has been very high so far. James: Okay. Got it. Omar: My underlying assumption is, as I go in with the assumption that the growth must be high but as soon as I get in the growth will go down.  James: But why is that growth? I mean that is specific macroeconomic.  Omar: Oh yes, yes. There's first of all, there's a port there, number one. The port -- James: In Tampa. Okay. You're talking about Jacksonville or Tampa right now? Omar: No, I'm talking Tampa. James: Okay. Omar: Jacksonville also has it, but Tampa also has it, okay. James: Okay. Got it. Got it. Omar: Tampa is also fast becoming, Tampa and Orlando by the way are connected with this, what is it? I to or I for whatever, it's connected by. So they're faster like, you know San Antonio and Austin how their kind of converging like this? James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Tampa and Orlando are sort of converging like this. James: Got it. Got it. Omar: Number one. Number two, they're very diversified employment base, you know all the typical Medical, Government, Finance, Healthcare all of that sort of stuff, right? Logistics this and that. And plus the deal is man, they're also repositioning themselves as a tourist destination and they've been very successful at it. James: Okay.  Omar: Because there's lots to do you know you have a nice beach. So, you know that kind of helps all this, right? Have a nice beach. James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Really nice weather, you know. So they're really positioning it that way and it also helps that you've got Disneyland which is about 90 minutes away from you in Orlando. So you can kind of get some of the acts things while you come to Tampa you enjoy all the stuff here. Because Orlando relative to Tampa is not, I mean outside of Disneyland there's not a lot to do though. But a lot of like nightlife and entertainment and all that.  James: But I also heard from someone saying that like Orlando because it is more of a central location of Florida and because of all the hurricane and people are less worried about hurricane in the central because it you know, it has less impact. Omar: James. James. James: Can you hear me? Omar: When people don't get a hurricane, they are not going to be the people who get the hurricane. Other people get hurricanes. Not us. James: Correct, correct. Omar: But that's not always the case but that's the assumption.  James: Okay. By Tampa is the same case as well? Like, you know because of-- Omar: I don't know exactly how many hurricanes they've got but look man, they seem to be doing fine. I mean if they receive the hurricane they seem to be doing very fine after a hurricane.  James: Okay. Okay. So let's go to Jacksonville, that's a market that did not exist in the map of hotness, of apartment and recently in the past three, four years or maybe more than that. Maybe you can tell me a lot more history than that. Why did it pop out as a good market to invest as an apartment? Omar: Well, because Jackson actually, we talk to the Chamber of Commerce actually about this. And the Chamber of Commerce has done a fantastic job in attracting people, number one. Because first of all Florida has no state income tax. What they've also done is a very low otherwise state a low or minimum tax environment [inaudible20:29] What they've also done is, they reconfigured their whole thing as a logistical Center as well. So they already had the military and people always used to say, oh Tampa, Jacksonville's got a lot of military, but it turns out military's only 11% of the economy now. James: Okay. Okay. Omar: So they've reposition themselves as a leading Health Care Center provider, all that sort of, Mayo Clinic has an offshoot there by the way, just to let you know. It's a number one ranked Hospital.  James: Oh Mayo Clinic. Okay. Okay. We always wonder what is Mayo Clinic, but now you clarified that. Omar: Right? So Mayo Clinic is in Rochester I think. One of my wise colleagues is there actually. Think it's in Rochester Minnesota. It's one of the leading hospitals in the world. James: Okay. Got it. Omar: And now they've actually had an offshoot in basically Jacksonville, which is the number one ranked Hospital in Florida. Plus they've got a lot of good healthcare jobs. They've really repositioned themselves not only as a great Port because the port of Jacksonville is really good and they're really expanding their ports. You know Chicon, the owner of Jacksonville Jaguars, man he's going crazy. He is spending like two or three or four billion dollars redeveloping everything.  James: Got it. Got it. Omar: [inaudible 21:32] what they've done is because of their location, because they're right, I mean Georgia is about 90 minutes away, Southern Georgia, right? And now you have to go into basically, Florida and basically go to the Panhandle. What they've also done is because of their poor, because of their transportation Network and then proximity to the East Coast they repositioned themselves as a Logistical Center as well.  James: Got it. That's what I heard is one of the big drivers for Jacksonville. And I also heard about the opening of Panama Canal has given that option from like importing things from China. It's much, much faster to go through Panama Canal and go through Jacksonville. Omar: Oh, yes. James: Makes it a very good distribution centre. Omar: Because the other board right after Jacksonville in which by the way is also going through a big redevelopment and vitalization is Savannah, Georgia.  James: Okay. Yes. Omar: [inaudible 22:17] big enough and I think Jacksonville does something like, I mean don't quote me on this but like 31% of all the cars that are imported into the U.S. come through the Jacksonville Port. So there's a lot of activity there, right? But they've really done a good job. The Government there has done a fantastic job in attracting all this talent and all these businesses.  James: Okay. Okay. Got it. So let me recap on the process that you came to Jacksonville and going to the submarket. So you looked at a few big hot markets for apartments and looked at similar characteristics for that submarket that you want like for closer to school, in a good location and you look at the deal flow that you are getting from each of these markets. And then you, I mean from your assessment Jacksonville has a good value that you can go and buy right now for that specific demographic of location I guess, right? Omar: Look I love Atlanta as well. I was actually in Atlanta a few weeks ago looking at some, touring some properties. So that doesn't mean Atlanta isn't good or say Tampa or Orlando is good. We were just finding the best deals in Jacksonville.  James: Okay. Okay. So the approach you're taking is like basically looking at the market and shifting it to look for deals in specific locations of submarket where you think there is a good value to be created rather than just randomly looking at deals, right? Because-- Omar: Because man it doesn't really help you, right? If you really go crazy if you try to randomly look at deals.  James: Yes. Yes. I think a lot of people just look at deals. What, where is the deal? What's the deal that exist? Start underwriting the deals right? So-- Omar: Oh I don't have that much free time and I have a son who's like 18 months old man My wife is going to leave me if I start underwriting every deal that comes across my desk.  James: Yes, I don't do all the deals that comes across. Omar: I'm going to kill myself trying to do all that. Yes man it's very surprising I see a lot of people especially on Facebook posting. I mean I get up in the morning and I see this, [inaudible 24:05] who loves to underwrite deals? And I'm like, dude it's 1 a.m. Go get a beer. Why are you underwriting a deal at 1 a.m., man?  James: Yes. Yes. Yes I think some people think that you can open up a big funnel and make sure you know out of that funnel you get one or two good deals, right? But also if you have experience enough you can get the right funnel to make sure you only get quality data in, so that whatever comes in is more quality. Omar: My point is man, why do you want to underwrite more deals? Why don't you underwrite the right deal and spend more time on that deal or that set of deals. James: Correct. Omar: Because there's just so many transactions in the U.S. man. There's no way I can keep up man. James: Correct. Correct. Correct. So let's go to your underwriting Jacksonville because I think that's important, right? So now you already select a few submarkets in Jacksonville, right and then you start networking with Brokers, is that what you did?  Omar: Yes. Yes but you know with Brokers also, you kind of have to train them, right? Because what happened is every time what are you looking at? All that after all that jazz, wine and dining and all that stuff. We had to train Brokers [inaudible25:08] here are only specific submarkets we're looking at. So for instance Jacksonville, it was San Jose, San Marcos, it's the beaches, it was Mandarin and orange [inaudible25:16]  James: Okay. Omar: And Argyle Forest was certainly, right? If it's anything outside of that, unless I don't know it's like the deal of the century, right? Literally, somebody is just handing it away. We don't want to look at it. Don't waste my time. And invariably what the Brokers will do, because it's their job they have to do it. They'll send you deals from other submarkets because they want to sell. Hey, I think this is great. You will love this. James: Yes. Omar: And you have to keep telling them, hey man I really appreciative that you send me this stuff, not interested. Not interested. So, but what that does is you do this a few times and then the Broker really remembers your name when a deal in your particular submarket does show up. Because then you go to the top of the pile. James: Correct. Because they know that you asked specifically for these right now.  Omar: Yes. [inaudible25:58] You know the deal. Right? So that's kind of what we get, right? James: So let's say they send a deal that matches your location. So what is the next thing we look at? Omar: So what I basically look at is what are the demographics. Median income has got to be at the minimum 38 to 40 thousand dollars minimum. James: What, at median household income? Omar: Median household income. Right? James: Got it. Got it. Why do you think median household income is important? Omar: Because look, again this is rough math I didn't do a PhD in [inaudible 26:27]  James: Sure, sure, sure. Go ahead. Omar: Typically, you know, where [inaudible 26:30] everybody says BC but really everybody is doing C. Okay, you can just-- I think people just say B to sound nice. Right? It's really C. Okay, let's be honest. Right? Typically with a C if you're going to push [inaudible 26:41] within one or two years, in these submarkets at least, I don't know about other areas. Typically you want to push the rents to around a thousand dollars a month, give or take. Average rate. I'm just talking very cool terms, right? Which basically means that if you're pushing it to a thousand dollars a month and the affordability index is it should be 33%, 1000 times 12 is 12, 12 times 3 is 36. So I just added an extra 2,000 on top or 4000 on top just to give a margin of safety.  James: Okay. Omar: Right? It's very simple math, right? There's nothing complex in it. Right?  James: Correct. Omar: Because my point is if you're in an area where the average income is 30,000, man you can raise your rent all you like. Nobody's going to pay you. James: Yes. Yes, correct. So I think we can let me clarify to the listeners, right? So basically when you rent to an apartment, we basically look for 3x income, right? So that's how it translates to the household income, average household income and if you want to do a value-add or where deals, you have a margin of buffer in our site and you're buying it lower than what the median household income, that's basically upside. That means you can find enough renters to fill up that upside, right?  Omar: Yes. James: Just to clarify to the listeners. So go ahead. So you basically look up median household income. What is the next step do you look for? Omar: Then I basically look at crime. Basically, I just-- I mean look, there's going to be a level of crime, what I'm really looking at is violent crime. Right? James: Violent crime. Okay. How do you look for which tools to use?  Omar: Well, you can go to crime map, crime ratings, you can subscribe to certain databases and they can give you neighborhood Scout is one by the way.  James: Okay. Okay. Omar: You can use that. And then on top of that because it's harder to do this for Texas, but you can do this in other states like Florida, Georgia and all of that. But for instance, what you can do is see what the comps in the submarket are. Right? And that kind of helps you in determining basically, look if all the properties for a certain vintage around you have traded for a certain amount of money, then if something is up or below that there's got to be a compelling reason for that. Now I'm not saying if it's above it's a bad reason and don't do it. There's got to be a compelling reason. Now they might be actually a very good reason. Right? James: Got it. Omar: So, you know that's like a rough idea and then basically I'm looking at rent upside. Basically look at co-stars and see what the average rents are for this property. What is roughly the average rent upside and you can also seek [inaudible29:04] place that I had a few contacts in Jacksonville and you can also call those up. Right? Again, rough math kind of gives you hey, do I send five hundred two hundred dollars and then basically see what is the amount of value [inaudible29:16]. Because for instance, if all the units have been renovated which by the way happened yesterday. Yesterday we came across [inaudible29:22] in Jackson where I know the Broker and I mean he sent me the email. You know, the email blast out and basically what we saw was the location was great, there's a lot of rent up, supposedly there's rent upside, but when I called the guy up, we know each other. He's like, bro, all the units have been renovated. There's maybe 50, 75, I know you so I'm going to tell you there's only 50, 75 so the price isn't going to be worth it. James: Yes, and they'll ask you to do some weird stuff, right? Like go there, washer, dryer, rent the washer dryer out. Omar: Yes. Yes. James: But charge for assigned parking, right? So very small amount in terms of upside, right? Omar: My point is if it was so easy why don't you do it? James: Yes. Correct. Omar: That's the way I look at it.  James: Yes, usually I mean when I talk to the Brokers I will know within the few seconds whether it's a good deal or not. They'll be really excited if it matches what we are looking for, right? Especially-- Omar: Yes because I think the other deal is if you develop a good relationship with Brokers and they know what you're specifically looking for, good Brokers can kind of again look they have to sell but they can also give you some guidance along the way. James: Correct. Correct. Omar: Right? They can do a lot bro, it doesn't really work for you I think, but I'm just going to be honest with you, and look you still have to take it with a grain of salt but it is what it is.  James: Correct, correct. Okay. So look for rent upside by looking at rent comps and you said in Texas which is a non-disclosure state it's hard to find sales comp but…  Omar: Yes, but look, you know if you're in a market you're going to know who the people are doing deals. Which people are doing deals.  James: Okay. Omar: And even if you don't know it, say your property manager kind of knows it, or your  loan broker or lender knows kind of what deals have traded in the market. You got me. You can pick up a phone and call some people, right? Maybe you don't get all the information but you can get, I mean if you're in submarket or sometimes even in Texas, you can't know.  James: Yes, exactly. Exactly. So when do you start underwriting on your Excel sheet?  Omar: Oh bro after I've done the property tour because if these don't even pass this stuff why you even bothering to underwrite it.  James: Oh really? So okay. So you basically look at market-- Omar: [inaudible 31:28] My point is, if it passes all these filters and then I have a conversation, I talk to my property manager, I talk to the Broker, I talk to my local contacts there and if it's all a go and these are all five-minute conversations or less. It's not like a two hour long conversation if it passes through all this they're just going to [inaudible 31:45] property door, man.  James: Okay, so you basically-- but what about the price? How do you determine whether the price they asking is reasonable or not. Omar: Well, obviously because I can do a rough math and compare it against the comps, right?  James: Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. So you basically do [inaudible 31:59]  Omar: Oh, yes. Yes, because my point is why waste myself? Because look, the price could make sense, all the Brokers pictures we all know look fantastic. It looks like you're in like Beverly Hills, you know. So the pictures you know are kind of misleading, right? And the location might be really good but hey, you might go there and realize you know, the approach is really weird. Or for instance we were touring this one property and then 90% of I think the residents were just hanging out at 12:00 noon. James: Correct. Omar: Outside smoking.  James: At 12 o'clock. Wow. Omar: I said, well what the hell is this. Right? So my point is some things you only know when you do tour a property, there's no amount of videos and photos because the Broker isn't going to put a bad photo on.  James: Yes. Yes. Their Excel spreadsheets are going to tell you that, right?  Omar: Yes. James: So basically, you know, you have to go. What about what else do you look for when you do a property tour other than…  Omar: So you know when they're doing a property tour, like obviously I'm taking a lot of notes, I'm taking a lot of pictures, a lot of times the Broker will say one thing and then you kind of turn back around and ask the same question a different way just to kind of see. But what I also like to do is I also like to tour the property. On the property tour I like to have the current property manager and look I'm not stupid enough to say that the Broker hasn't coached the property manager. The broker has obviously coached the property manager that's his job. But a lot of times you'll realize that they haven't been coached enough. So if you ask the right questions the right way you can get some level of information. Again you have to verify everything and another trick I also figured out is. You should also try to talk to the maintenance guy and have him on the property tour and then take these people aside and so the Broker can be with somebody else. Ideally you should tour with two people. So if one guy takes care of the Broker and you take care of the property manager or the other way around. Because then you can isolate and ask questions, right? So especially if you take like say a maintenance guy and you ask him, hey man so what kind of cap X you think we should do? What do you think about the [inaudible 33:54]? A lot of times those people haven't been coached as much or at all. James: Correct.  Omar: And to be honest with you, man, we are in a high trust society. Most people aren't going to completely just lie to your face. They might lie a little bit but people aren't going to say red is blue and blue is purple. James: Correct. Omar: You know you can see that. You know when somebody says it, you can feel it. Come on. James: You can feel, yes. That's what I'm coming. You can actually see whether they are trying to hide stuff or not. But you're right, asking the maintenance guy is a better way than asking the property managers or even the other person is like leasing agent.  Omar: Yes. James: Who were assigned to you. They probably will tell you a lot more information. Omar: And that's why I feel like it's better to have two people like you and a partner touring. James: Okay. Omar: Because then different people, like one because look, and there is nothing wrong. The Broker has to do this. The Broker always wants to be with you to see every question is answered the way he wants it to be answered. So then one of your partners or you can tackle the Broker and the other person can tackle somebody else. James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to, okay so now you are done with the property tour. Now you're going to an [inaudible35:01] underwriting, right? So, how do you underwrite, I mean I want to talk especially about Jacksonville because it's a new market for you and you are looking at a new, how did you underwrite taxes, insurance and payroll because this-- Omar: Taxes was very easy to do. You talk to a tax consultant and you also see what historically the rate has been for the county. Right? James: Okay. Omar: But again, just because your new doesn't mean you don't know people. James: Correct. But how do you underwrite tax post acquisition? Because I mean in taxes is always very complicated-- Omar: No but taxes is harder, right? But [inaudible 35:32] in Florida it's easier because the sale is reported. They already know what price it is. James: So do they, so how much let's say how many percent do they increase it to after-- Omar: Typically in Duval County where we bought, it's about 80 to 85% [inaudible35:46]  James: Okay. Okay. That's it.  Omar: But the tax rate is low, right? Just to give you an idea the tax rate is [inaudible35:51] in Texas a tax rate is higher. So you understand there's lots of things and for instance in Florida there's an early payment discount. So if you pay in November, so it's November, December, January, February, right? So if you pay in November, which is four months before you should be paying you get 4% off your tax return.  James: Oh, that's really good. Omar: And if you pay in December you get 3% off, if you pay January you get well, whatever 2% off. In February you get 1% off. James: So what is the average tax rate in Florida?  Omar: I don't know about Florida. I know about Douval. It was like 1.81.  James: Wow, that's pretty low. Yes compared to-- Omar: Yes, but you also have to realize you have the percentage of assessed value is higher, right? Depending on which county you are in. You're in San Antonio and Austin where Bear county is just crazy. James: Bear Travis County, yes. Omar: Yes. Bear and Travis are just crazy but there are other counties in for instance Texas where the tax might be high but percentage of assessed value is really low.  James: Correct.  Omar: No, I mean it balances out. Right? My point is-- James: Yes. So but what about the, do you get to protest the tax and all that in the Duval County in Jacksonville? Omar: I think you can. No you were not, I think I know you can because we're going to do it. But you need to have a pretty good reason, right?  James: Okay. Okay. Omar: Right? And obviously look, you can show that yea, look I bought it for this price, but my income doesn't support this tax or this or that. I mean you have to hire the right people. I'm not going to go stand and do it myself.  James: So basically they do bump up the price of the acquisition, but it's very easy to determine that and 80 to 85% of whatever.  Omar; Yes. Yes. Yes. James: That's-- Omar: But look man, on the flip side is that when you go in, you kind of have a better control of your taxes in Texas where taxes can just go up and you [inaudible37:29]  James: Yes. Yes. You have no control in Texas. So we usually go very very conservative to a hundred percent. So which-- Omar: Look my point is it's good and bad, right? It depends where you are. So now people will say, oh the tax person knows all your numbers and like, yes but I can plan for it.  James: Yes, yes, correct. But it also gives you an expectation difference between buyer and seller because the buyer is saying this is my cap rate whereas the seller is saying, this is what, I mean the seller is going to say this is one of the cap rate whereas the buyer is going to say this is my cap rate will be after acquisition because-- Omar: Yes. Of course. James: So when it's smaller [inaudible38:03] between these two, the expectation is more aligned compared to in Texas because you know, it can jump up a lot and there's a lot of mismatch of expectations. Right? Omar: Well actually a deal in Houston, it's near Sugar Land and yesterday I was talking to this guy who wanted me on the deal and the other deal isn't going anywhere because the taxes were reassessed at double last year. Now he has to go to this the next week to fight it. Man, there's no way you're going to get double taxes in Florida or Georgia where there's our disclosure state, right? James: Correct. Correct, correct. So that's a good part because the buyer would be saying that's not my, the seller would be saying that's not my problem and buyer is going to say I have to underwrite that, right? So. Omar: I mean man, you can have a good case, right? Because it's not like somebody is saying something to you like, look man this is the law.  James: Yes, correct. So let's go back to Insurance. How do you underwrite Jacksonville Insurance? Because I know in Florida there is a lot of hurricane and all that-- Omar: [inaudible 38:58] just to give you an idea that is a complete myth because Jacksonville has only had one hurricane in the past eight years.  James: So is it lower than other parts of Florida? Or it just-- Omar: Yes. So the first it only depends where you are in Florida. Number one, right? Number two, it depends if you're in a flood plain or not, but that's in Texas as well. Right? And number three, it also depends a lot of times, well how many other claims have happened in your area? Right? Because that kind of for the insurance people that's kind of like a you know, how risky your area is quote unquote for them. So yes, so in Jacksonville, and apparently I did not need to know this information but we were told this information. Like the coast of Florida where Jacksonville is the golf coast is really warm where Jacksonville is, not golf courses on the other side, it's the Atlantic side. These are really warm waters relatively speaking. So apparently there's like some weather system which makes it really hard for hurricanes to come into Jacksonville. So that's why it's only had one hurricane in the 80 years.  James: So when you get your insurance quote, when you compare that to other parts of other markets-- Omar: Oh yes, Tampa was way higher, man. James: What about like Houston and Dallas?  Omar: I don't know about Houston because I haven't really lately looked at something in Houston. Right? So I can't really say about Houston and Dallas was maybe like say $25, $50 less maybe. James: Oh really. Okay.  Omar: Yes. It wasn't because that was a big question that came up for everybody. I was like look man, literally here's all the information and you don't even have to take my word for it because I'm giving you sources for all the information. Right? [crosstalk40:24] James: [crosstalk40:25] rate at different markets? Omar: Sorry? James: Are you talking about the insurance rate for-- Omar: Yes. Yes. Yes. Because a lot of guys from Chicago, I had a few investors they were like, but Florida has real hurricanes. I was like, yes but Jacksonville doesn't. James: Okay, got it. So you basically got a code from the insurance guy for the-- Omar: Oh yes man, I wasn't just going to go in and just put my own number that has no basis in reality.  James: Correct, correct. So, what about payroll? How did you determine the payroll?  Omar: So the payroll is pretty easy man. You know how much people get paid on per whatever hour. You know, you can have a rough idea how many people you are going to put on site and then you know what the load is, so then it gets pretty easy to calculate what your payroll is going to be. James: What was the load that you put in? Omar: So the load in this particular case was like 40% which is very high. James: Okay-- Omar: Yes it is pretty high. But the-- James: That is pretty high is very high. Omar: No. No. No. But hold on. They put our wages really low, right?  James: Oh really? Okay. Omar: Then you have got to [inaudible41:16] around. I was paying roughly the same that I was paying in [inaudible41:19]  James: Really? So why is that market…  Omar: I have no idea man, and I tried to check I asked multiple people. We did all that song and dancing. It's all kind of the same.  James: So you looked at the current financials and looked at the payroll? Omar: No. No, I was talking about my payroll would be going forward. I don't really care what the guy before me paid. Why do I care? James: So you got that from your property management?  Omar: Yes. Yes. Yes. And then I verified it with other property managers and blah blah blah blah blah checked everything, you know did all the due diligence. James: Got it. Yes. It's interesting that because 40% is really high. I mean usually-- Omar: Yes but [inaudible41:52] basis was really low. Like people salaries are really lower.  James: Is that a Jacksonville specific? Omar: I don't know what it is specifically. I think it's a Florida-based thing relatively speaking. But yes, that's what I mean. I thought it was kind of weird too. But then I mean I checked with other people.  James: So the deal that you're doing, I presume is a value ad deal. Is that right? Omar: Oh yes, all the deals-- James: How deep is the value at? I mean roughly at high level, how much are you putting in? Omar: Man, nothing has been touched for ten years. In fact, let's put it this way. We have enough land we checked with the city that we have enough land at the back to develop 32 more units.  James: That's really good because it's hard to find deals now, you know. Like ten years not touched, right? All deals are being flip right now, right? So within a couple of years. So that's good. That should be a really good deal. And what is the-- Omar: A hundred percent we could do basically.  James: What was your expense ratio that you see based on income divided by your expenses? I mean first-- Omar: Hold on man, let me just take it out. I don't even have to tell you. Hold on.  James: Okay. Omar: Why even bother you know?  James: Because usually like 50 to 55% is common in the [inaudible 42:59] industry. Omar: Oh no in basically in Jacksonville. You can get really lower expense ratios.  James: Okay.  Omar: It depends if it's submarket [inaudible43:05]  James: Yes, and I know like in Phoenix, I think it was like 45, or 40% which was surprising to me [crosstalk43:13]  Omar: [crosstalk43:13] this right now. Hold on let me open this model I can tell you right now. I don't want to give you something [inaudible 43:21] then variably one person's going to be like, I looked at your deal your numbers--Like, yes I'm sorry. I don't like have like numbers with second decimal points. Because people always do that to try to catch you. Right? And they're like, yes it's off by like $2 man. So hold on, divided by, oh yes so it was operating at 52 and yes first year we're going to be at 56 because you know we are repositioning-- James: Yes. First year of course, it will be higher-- Omar: And then we just go down.  James: Okay. Okay, okay that's interesting, that's good. So, and then as the income grows and your expenses stabilize, I think that expenses should be-- Omar: That's the only reason why the expense ratio goes down. Right? Because you're basically your top Line growth is way higher than your basically your expense growth.  James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay, that's really good. And you look for mid teens IRR. Omar: Mid teens IRR, a 10% cash flow and stabilized, all that jazz. James: Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay, that sounds good in terms of the underwriting. So-- Omar: Am I giving you all my secrets James?  James: Yes, absolutely. I will be very specific to Jacksonville. Right? I like to see you know, how each market is being underwritten and so that a business can learn and you know, it's very specific to people who do a lot of analysis on the market because I think that's important, right? You can't just go and buy any deal out of the gate right there, right? So it's good to know that. And these three things like payroll, insurance and taxes are very tricky when you-- Omar: Oh yes. James: --in different markets. So it's good to understand how does that county or that particular city or state determines their property taxes? Because we have different things in taxes here where I buy so it's good to understand. That's good. What is the most valuable value ad that you think that you're going to be doing to this deal? Omar: Oh well look man, because nothing had been touched. I think everything is valuable.  James: Okay. Omar: Hold on but that we lucked out also, right? There's a part of this is work and preparation. Or part of this is luck also. I mean you can't just take that portion away, right? James: Oh yes yes. Absolutely. Omar: All my hard work. Right? James: Absolutely. Absolutely. Omar: Because there's lots of people-- James: It's really hard to find that kind of deals nowadays, right? So how much was your rehab budget?  Omar: So rehab is about a million dollars. James: A million dollars. So let's say your million-dollar today become 500,000 right? I'm showing million dollar you're bringing into your exterior everything upgrade. Right? So let's say then-- Omar: Your exterior is roughly split 70/30. Interior [inaudible46:01]  James: Okay. Okay. So between interior and exterior which one do you think is more important?  Omar: I think if you only had a few dollars, exterior. James: Exterior, okay. Omar: Because people make a-- again this doesn't mean you should ignore the interior. Just to add a disclaimer. The point is, my point is a lot of times we as humans make decisions on first impressions. So if you come into a property and the clubhouse looks [inaudible 46:28] the approach looks [inaudible 46:29] the trees are trimmed, the parking lot is done nicely, then you go to an apartment which may, I mean I'm not saying it should be a complete disaster, but it might not be the best apartment in the world. You can overcome that. Right? But if you come in and the approach looks like you know, somebody got murdered here, right and the clubhouse looks like you know fights happen here, then no matter how good your indeed a renovation is, there's a good chance people will say well, I mean, it looks like I might get killed to just get into my apartment. James: Yes. Omar: Right? So it's the first impression thing more than anything else. It's like any other thing in life I feel. James: Absolutely. So let's say you are 300,000 for exterior. Right? Let's say that 300,000 become a 150,000, what are the important exterior renovation that you would focus on? Omar: So we did all the tree trimming because man, there's first of all living in Texas you realize how much a mystery still [inaudible 47:26] right? So first of all, tree trimming. Trees hadn't been trimmed for 10 years man. They were beautiful Spanish [inaudible 47:34] oak trees with Spanish moss on them. But they just hadn't been trimmed. James: Okay. Okay. Omar: So doing all the tree trimming, all the landscaping, then basically resealing the driveway and then making sure all the flower beds and all the approach leading up to all of that was done properly and the monument signage.  James: Okay, got it. So this is what you would focus on. And what about-- Omar: But also putting a dog park by the way. [inaudible 47:57] you said if my $300,000 budget went to 150 what I do and that's-- James: Yes. Dog park is not very expensive. Omar: Yes. But I'm saying it's stuff like dog park and [inaudible 48:06] to your outdoor kitchen, you're swimming pool, put a bigger sign in. You know [inaudible48:11]  James: Yes and dog park is one of the most valuable value ad because you spend less on it, but a lot of people want it, right? So for some reason, I mean people like pets and all that. So what about the interior? You have 700,000, how much per door are you planning to put for each-- Omar: So roughly say I can do the math roughly. There was six something. Right? So and James: [inaudible48:32]  Omar: Yes, so we're not even-- so we're planning on doing roughly say 75% of the unit's right? So I think that's  104 units if you go 700 divided by 104, roughly we were going to be around $6500 per unit. James; Okay. That's a pretty large budget.  Omar: Yes, man you should see some of these units man, I was like why God how do people even live here?  James: Yes. Omar: Because it's a very affluent. I mean relatively middle class, upper middle class submarket, right? They just haven't done anything.  James: So are you going to be using the property management company to do the renovations? Omar: They have a very fantastic reputation and they were highly recommended a few of our other contacts also use them so that's why. James: Okay. Omar: Because we were seeing problems with a lot of other people's property managers. Either they didn't have the right staff or didn't have the right professionals and this and that indeed these guys were properly integrated across the value chain. James: So at high level, what are you doing on the interiors? Omar: High level Interiors, it's a typical, [inaudible 49:29] back splashes, change the kitchen appliances, countertops, medicine cabinets, lighting packages. The other small little thing which we realized was a very big value add but was cost us less than two dollars and fifty cents per outlet was the [inaudible 49:45] Yes it was the biggest value add-- James: Yeah, biggest value add; that is the most valuable value add. Right? Omar: Yes. James: Like I've never done it in any of my properties but I was telling my wife, Shanti and I said, hey, you know, we should do these, you know, because it's so cheap and a lot of people, a lot of-- Omar: Yes, it was like two dollars or whatever, it was cheaper than that and people cannot get over the fact that they have so many USB out, I was like, everywhere there is a plug there's got to be a USB outlet. James: So do you put for every outlet? The USB? Omar: Not for every, I was dramatizing but I mean for the ones that are accessible say around the kitchen, living room. James: Okay interesting I should steal that idea.  Omar: I didn't invent the idea go for it man.  James: Yes. Omar: [inaudible 50:25] USB port so take it.  James: I know a few other people who do it mentioned that too but I'm not sure for some reason we are not doing it. But that should be a very simple-- Omar: People love it man. And I don't blame them man. Like it's freaking aggravating sometimes, you know, when you got to put like a little thing on top of your USB and then you plug it in. James: Yes, imagine how much you know, this life has changed around all this electronic [crosstalk50:46] devices and all that. So interesting. So did you get a lot of advice from your property management companies on how to work and what are the things to renovate and all that? Or how-- Omar: Yes, and no because we had been developing a relationship with them six months prior to this acquisition. So we had a good relationship with not just them but with other vendors in the market. And especially luckily for us the regional we have for this property right now, actually in an earlier life and with an earlier employer had actually started working on this asset 15 years ago as a property manager. This is sheer dumb luck. This is not by design. So she really knew where all the [inaudible51:24]  James: Yes. Yes, that's interesting. Sometimes you get people who have been in the industry for some time. They say yes, I've worked on that property before they, which is good for us because they know. Got it. Got it. So let's go to a more personal side of things. Right? So you have been pretty successful now and you're doing an apartment syndication now and all that, right? So why do you do what you do? Omar: James, I know a lot of people try to say they have a big "why" and they have a really philosophical reason James, my big "why" is James, I really like-- my lifestyle is very expensive James. So all these nice suits. James: Okay. Omar: All these nice vacations man, they're not cheap. Okay. Real estate is a pretty good way to make a lot of money man.  James: Okay.  Omar: I want to give you a philosophical reason, I know a lot of people say they have the Immigrant success story, Oh I came from India or I came from Pakistan, I ate out of a dumpster, I worked in a gas station and no I had five dollars in my pocket, and everybody tells me that and I say, okay what did you do man? I don't know did you just swim from India, you had two dollars in your pocket you need to get on a plane buddy.  James: You can't be here, right?  Omar: No Indian shows up to America and [inaudible 52:37] Are you kidding me? All the Indians are educated. Everybody's an engineer or doctor or lawyer. You kidding me. He shows up with five dollars, man. So no I didn't show up to this country with five dollars James. I didn't eat out of a dumpster. I didn't work at a gas station, and I'm very grateful for that. Right? I've always had a very good lifestyle and I don't need to have a philosophical reason to say I'm doing this to, I don't know, solve world hunger or poverty or whatever. I have a pretty good lifestyle. I'm very grateful and very blessed. And the biggest thing in my life is being that, look I moved to Texas man I didn't know anybody. Right? But people have been so generous, people have been so kind to me. I'm not just saying investing with us, which is very nice, which I'm very grateful but also connecting me with other people, right? Hey, hey just opening a door. They didn't have to do it, but people have been so generous and so kind, So I quite enjoy the fact man that it's a good way to  make an honest living, right? I have a very expensive lifestyle that needs to get financed and that's just the way it is. And I didn't show up with two dollars in my pocket. So I'm very  grateful for that.  James: That sounds good. So, can you give some, do you have any daily habits that you think makes you more successful? Omar: No man, I just get up every day and I try to put one step after the other but consistently work in the same direction. So every day I'm reaching out to people and that's a lot of small little tasks. First of all, I never like getting up early but I've always known the value of getting up early. So I get up in the morning, right? 5:45, 550 ish I kind of up. Most days not always, right? I read a lot of books man. I reach out to Brokers all the time. I'm always looking at deals, coordinating with my team to do stuff and a lot of these like you do in your business there are a lot of small little tasks there's no one task that is, oh my God, you do this and [inaudible 54:33] But it's just small little tasks that you do daily, every single day in and day out. So even if you're feeling sick, even if your head is hurting you just do it.  James: So can you give a few advice to people who want to start in this business? Omar: Regularly communicating. So in my particular case, I don't know like when you're starting out specifically everybody has a different pain point, right? So in my particular case for instance on a daily, I can't say about weekly I can tell you, staying in touch with my marketing people, emailing Brokers, emailing investors, following up with people I've had conversations with, especially leads, you know people who use this stuff. A lot of word of mouth and just doing the stuff over and over and over. But it's not like I have a 9:00 to 5:00 now, right? It's not like oh Friday, I'm done and Saturday, Sunday I'm relaxing. I mean I could relax on a Monday now, but Saturday and Sunday I'm working. Right? So that's a good-- but it's like the same as you were doing with your business, right?  James: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Omar it has been really a pleasure to have you on this podcast. Is there anything that you have never mentioned in other podcasts that you want to mention? Omar: No James, I don't want to go down that route man.  James: Is there something that you want to tell, you know people who listen to you that you think that would be a good thing to talk about? Omar: Yes, what I want to tell people is listen, I don't think you should take words of wisdom for me. But what I should tell people is guys, honestly, I don't l

James: Hi, audience. This is James Kandasamy. You're listening to Achieve Wealth Podcast through Value at Real Estate Investing. Today, we have an awesome guest. His name is Nikolaï Ray. He's who's the founder and CEO of MREX, which is an acronym for Multifamily Real Estate Exchange; is considered by many of his peers in North America as the leading expert in apartment investing with over $1 billion analysis, underwriting and transactions. He's also a pioneer in mid-cap, multifamily financial engineering, which is, you know, he's regarded as the teacher, advisor and also the keynote speaker. He's also a real estate tech innovator to his current work on the multifamily real estate big data, artificial intelligence and property tokenization using blockchain technology. Hey, Nikolaï, welcome to the show.   Nikolaï: Hi, James. Thanks for having me.   James: Okay, so do you want to mention anything that I missed out about your credibility?   Nikolaï: No, that sounded like a mouthful.   James: It's going to be ready technology-centric discussion today, right?   Nikolaï: Yeah, the full story is that it should probably a lot longer, but I mean, that could be for, that could be for a whole other episode of the origin story of how, how'd you get to, you know, how you get to where we get in life, and professionally and personally, but yeah, that's, that's the gist of it, you know, everything that's underwriting and, you know, acquisitions, dispositions, refinancing, obviously, portfolio management, whether it be the small market, small cap market, you know, between 500 units, all the way up to the mid-market, you know, market cycles, and obviously, have a very strong penchant for data and for technology.   So, so that's, that's pretty much what I've done over the last, I guess, over the last seven or eight years, is focused on, you know, for the most part, I focused mostly on acquisitions. So I was in charge of an investment banking firm, we worked, you know, on both sides of the transaction advisory side of things, for investors and we also work with a lot of ultra high net worth investors, that's kind of where I built my speciality. Eventually, ultra high net worth investors and private equity firms and family offices, you know, by doing all that I kept on, kept on getting annoyed with the fact that the multifamily market is so fragmented, and the data is so packed, I just kept on thinking to myself, you know, this, this market this, which is an important market, I mean, the apartment building investment market is a almost a $10 trillion market worldwide.   It's a, quite, house is a primary need of human beings, which is to have somewhere to live. And yet, you know, we're kind of in the dark ages as multifamily investors, because number one, we don't have access to any centralized marketplace. If you compare us to a stock investor who can go on the NASDAQ and trade every type of tech stock or stock market investing world, the New York Stock Exchange, and we don't have access to any data, the data is very raw, it's very, it's kind of, you know, what I call legacy data, as you look at like Costar and, and all these various data providers who provide this very raw and inert data, without any actual, you know, context around the data, and without any helps with regards to making decisions business intelligence wise, as a multifamily real estate investor. So that's kind of how that's how my career has gone so far. That's why I went from transactions and more towards data technologies because I felt like there was so much work to be done to help investors just you know, be better investors for once.   James: Okay, so let me understand MREX because I think it's important since you have a lot of passion we need right now. Right? So --   Nikolaï: Yeah.   James: Multifamily Real Estate Exchange, if I understand it correctly, so what you're saying is right now, the data is so fragmented, and a lot of times when, you know, people like me underwrite deals, we have to do so much work, I did too. I mean, I really learn to write [inaudible 04:05] for four hours because I did all the property management financial, that there are so much of mistakes in the property management financials, you have to do T-3, T-12, you had to do expense ratio, you have to do market comps, and all that. So what you're saying is, you are going to summarize all that, and make it so easy to look at so that it can be treated as a commodity, commodity, is that right?   Nikolaï: Not necessarily. So, so the idea is taking you as an example or any of your listeners, right now, who are multifamily real estate investors actually acquiring properties, let's say you have the capital ready, or your investors have the capital ready to allocate to an acquisition, you know, just actually finding that first property to buy or the next property to buy is a very time intensive and energy intensive job, right. You have to go on, you have to go on all the different MLS, you have to go on the loop that's of this world, the [inaudible 00:05:00] and the [inaudible :00:05:01] and, you know, just --   James: [inaudible00:05:02]   Nikolaï: Right, and then you have all the brokers, and then you have all the broker websites, then you have all the pocket listings and you have not even really touched the majority of the market, you're actually still missing probably, you know, anywhere between 25% and 50%, of actual transactional inventory, depending which metro area you're in. So it's a lot of work, even just looking at the stuff that's on websites. That's a lot of work because you have to go on between five and fifteen websites, each website has a different user interface, this different user experience, and actually shows different information. On one site, maybe on [inaudible 00:05:42] you might have a cap rate, maybe on the MLS, you won't have cap rate, you'll just have gross revenue.   So then you have to figure out your own cap rate off of that. It's a lot of work, you know, and for me, I just never thought it made sense, to not be able to say, hey, I want to buy a multifamily property, whether it be a five unit, whether it be a 50 unit or 500 units, I want to go on to one marketplace, we're all properties are centralized in a unified, and normalized manner. Because that's the second point of it, is you have to be able to normalize expenses, if you want to start comparing apples with apples, and oranges with oranges. So that's the second phase. So what we're doing with MREX is we're building a unified, standardized marketplace for multifamily investors, where they will be able to see every single property that exists, that is for sale, despite on the way it's being sold or listed or marketed. We're going to be working with brokers obviously, the goal is not to get rid of brokers or anything like that, that's not, that's not what our goal is. Our goal is to help brokers, help investors just make the whole transaction process much quicker and more time efficient. And that way, you know, we're making the market more, you know, just a more efficient market.   James: Okay, okay. Got it. Got it. So you are basically streaming lining the whole selling and buying process, I guess, just to make --?   Nikolaï: Absolutely. Absolutely.   James: Okay, got it.   Nikolaï: And the analysis process as you said too, right, because it's one, it's one thing finding the properties and having them all in one marketplace. Okay, let's say, let's say you have the NASDAQ, let's say I wanted Lesson TechStars rather than multifamily properties. I go the NASDAQ and I can see every single company, I could have access to inventory, now that's the first step. Now the second step is, once you have access to inventory, and the information provided on all that inventory is normalized and standardize, well, I still have to be able to start comparing and start, you know, building my own models to say, well, if I'm a cash flow investor, which stocks are generating the most cash flow relative to the other, to the rest of the inventory. So that's where you know, context and alternative data comes into play with our platform, is that we want to be able to, to offer data and tools to you as a multifamily investor, to help you streamline your underwriting of the inventory that you've seen. So that's really the two things we're focused on at the moment.   James: Okay, got it. Got it. So interesting. So that'll be, that'll make a lot of, I mean, for investors or for buyers, they would be able to see what kind of deals that they want to buy,--   Nikolaï: Right.   James: Not just what they want to get the yield out of --   Nikolaï: Exactly and instead of going on fifteen websites, well, they've only one website, instead of having to, you know, start normalizing expense ratios and sifting through, through T-12 and T-3, and doing all that, it already kind of be all chewed up and kind of built up already. So you can actually focus, focus on analyzing, focus on comparing and establish, okay, I want to buy this property using this strategy. And why would I do that versus the other property that I see over there? That's ultimately what's the most important thing.   James: Okay, okay. So could it then be a good idea to match this with a crowdfunding platform, because during the crowdfunding, they can choose what deal they want, right?   Nikolaï: Right. So crowdfunding is an interesting thing. The problem is crowdfunding, obviously, crowdfunding, crowdfunding has tried to kind of attack two things. Number one is liquidity, right? Because, as a multifamily investor, the more properties that you acquire, you increase your net value, right, you're a richer person. But the problem with that, is that you have to leave equity in every single deal, right. The banks won't finance you 100%. So you always have to leave equity. So as you get richer and richer, value wise, you are actually cash poor, because you're leaving so much equity in each property that you acquire. And there's always a part of the equity that has to stay in those properties. But the problem, the second problem is that as you get, as you become a bigger investor, and you acquire more properties, and you're more well known in the market, well, you get access to better deals, but now you have less access to more money, even though you're richer. That's kind of the liquidity conundrum of multifamily investors. So that's why crowdfunding is interesting, because it gives kind of, you know, after the JOBS Act, it helps multifamily investors, particularly syndicators, to go and raise capital from, you know, from investors either through the regulation CF, you know, and obviously, regulation D506C was quite an upgrade also to be able to start to, to market capital raises. But what we're doing is we're actually building a second platform that is shadowing the Emirates platform. And what that platform will be doing is, we're actually going to create a sort of stock market and take the crowdfunding thing a bit further, because crowdfunding, as I said, tries to attack the liquidity conundrum. But the problem is, is that when you invest in a crowdfunding deal, you as an LP, are stuck in that deal for the lifetime of the deal. So if it's a five, it's a three to five year exit, well, your money stuck in that, so you, you as a passive investor, or as an LP, do not have liquidity. That's, that's one problem. And obviously, crowdfunding also helps with accessibility, right. So obviously, regulation D506C is only for accredited investors, which doesn't really help accessibility that much. Regulation CF has helped that because now then, that kind of lowers the barrier to entry for everyday retail investors who don't have that much money, but it's still a fairly limited regulation. At the moment, I know, they're trying to pass a couple of bills to increase the opportunity for regulation CF investors. So what we're doing is we're building a second platform, that's going to be basically a stock market, in its own sense, where, you know, through a broker-dealer partner that we hope to get. And then also through eventually a, an ATS license with the SEC, we would like to be able to take it a step further, and allow a multifamily investor to pretty much offer his property through one the various regulations on that marketplace. That way people could invest as passive investors, as LPs, either through Reg D, Reg CF, or eventually maybe even Reg A plus, but then they would also be able to acquire or access a secondary trading market so that they're not stuck in an illiquid period of three to five years. They would actually eventually be able to re trade part of their shares or all of their shares, kind of like you would at the stock market.   James: Wow. So it looks like you are trying to really disrupt the industry.   Nikolaï: Yeah, definitely. [inaudible 00:12:36]. You know, multifamily real estate looks like the stock market before the arrival of NASDAQ. Right? It's like before the internet, even though we have internet and multifamily real estate, it's as if people are still trading kind of like stock market investors were trading on floors, you know, with papers and screaming and doing all that stuff. It, you know, it doesn't make sense.   James: Yeah, yeah. It's so private nowadays, right? I mean, everybody has priority, we do not know how, even multi families performing under a different private LLC.   Nikolaï: Exactly.   James: There's a lot of good news out there. But there's also bad news, but nobody talks about it. right. So I think,--   Nikolaï: Oh, right. And the data, the data out there, like look at any of the data from, you know, even from the really big organization like NCREIF so the National Council of Real Estate Investment Trusts, NCREIT sorry. Even their data, when they know these indexes based on multifamily markets is based on a very low volume of the actual number of transactions. So when say a, a company, various data company says, well, the cap rate right now of say Atlanta is 5%, for example, well, that's actually based on a very small portion of overall transactions. So it's hard for us as multifamily investors, to really be sure are about the numbers that we're inputting into our underwriting models, because we're basing it off so little data.   James: Got it. Got it. Yeah, it's, it is just so limited, right? Because everything is done on a private basis on syndication, which is not much of the data being published out there, right. So --   Nikolaï: It's like investing in the stock market, but not knowing how the stocks have performed historically.   James: Yeah. Correct. Correct. So but why do you think this would work? And because if you look at the demographics of the, I mean, because I'm looking at syndication, when we whenever we buy for multifamily.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: But for me, it's just a small part of the whole market.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: Even though we are I mean, maybe my group or my network thinks that that's the whole thing how people buy multifamily. I don't know, that's true, because I network with a lot of different type of people, right. So looking at the classes of investors who are buying multifamily, I think I know for me, my thing is maybe we are one of the, I am one the lowest level part of it, right, because we are buying Class B and C using high net worth individuals and all that, but there are a lot of higher network, higher calibre people who are playing at a different level, which we don't have, which I don't have visibility, maybe you have it right so. So are you trying to look at different classes of investors and cut through all of them? Are you looking at only some classes of people?   Nikolaï: So we're trying to help what we call the small cap to mid middle market investors.   James: Okay.   Nikolaï: So anyone who owns between five units and about, you know, I'd say around 2500 to 5000 units.   James: Okay.   Nikolaï: That's kind of where we stopped, you know, that's where we're focusing on because that, you know, the majority of transactions are actually done by, by small cap to mid-market investors.   James: Okay.   Nikolaï: You know, the multifamily market is historically a mom and pop market. Now, it's, you know, it has transition a bit, investors are getting bigger and bigger. But the reality is the majority of the market is not an institutional market, you know, at the root level, or the private equity firm level or family office level, depending obviously, which metro area you're in, right. New York City is obviously more of an institutional market. Canada, Toronto is a very institutional market, but the majority of cities and metro areas are still, you know, very small cap market. And the problem is that, you know, take you for an example as a syndicator, or even take someone who's not a syndicator, right, because a lot of investors, multifamily aren't syndicators, they just buy their own properties, you know, they end up with maybe, you know, anywhere between 50 and 500 units as time goes by. Now, the problem with with those types of investors and syndicators as yourself is that you do not have access to a team of underwriters, you don't have access to, you know, expensive data that say a real estate investment trust has more than a very big private equity firm has, you don't have access to all those analysts. So, you know, we want to try and make sure that the market stays very level and stays is a level playing field. Because, you know, ultimately, I think the multifamily real estate market is very important for a couple of reasons. Number one, you know, everyone talks about the disparity of wealth, right of the 1%, and how the disparity is getting bigger and bigger. And we could do a whole podcast on that and why it's happened and where it's kind of going. But ultimately, I think, you know, the multifamily market is probably, the market, it's probably the asset class that offers the best returns based on risk, with the best risk-adjusted returns. If you look at Sharpe ratios, and Sortino ratios and all these things. Now, it's also been proven, there's a lot of studies about this, a lot of university studies done on this, that, you know, social mobility comes from education, and access to property, right. The reason why people have been so poor for so long, and like the Brazilian favelas, or the Indian shanty towns, is because people don't have education, and they do not have access to property, they are not able to become landowners, or owners of their own homes, even less become investment property owners, right. So I think multifamily stays as a very important asset class, because, on top of filling a basic need of human beings, that means providing somewhere to live, it also is a very important mover, for the everyday investor, the mom and pop, just the normal person need you to be able to access a very good, very safe, wealth building asset class that does not have the same volatility, or the same pitfalls as say, the stock market and other types of asset classes. So I think it's very important that we provide, you know, tools and data and allow for the smaller investor, the investor that has less than 1000, or even less than 5000 units to be able to continue on performing, continue on from this, this asset class.   James: Got it. Got it. So let's go to a bit more details on some of the big data and artificial intelligence, right.   Nikolaï: Yeah.   James: So yeah, I studied artificial intelligence almost 24 years ago, every now it has become really popular, a lot of startups with artificial intelligence, right.   Nikolaï: Absolutely.   James: So the question is, how do you, I mean, first of all, let's define what, can you define artificial intelligence in your terms in terms of real estate? Because I studied engineering standpoint.   Nikolaï: Yeah, well, I'm not an engineer, by trade, so at least I'll give more of a generalist definition to the people listening which I think is probably gonna be very good. The important thing is to understand, kind of the difference between machine learning and artificial intelligence. So you know, machine learning is more of a, it's a less automated process, right. So a lot of what people are calling artificial intelligence is ultimately just machine learning. And what it is, is that let's say, let's say, you know, I'm a data scientist or an economist, and I build a predictive model using, say, Monte Carlo simulations. Well, I set a, I build a set of hypotheses, I plugged them into my Monte Carlo simulation, and then that runs. Now, with machine learning and artificial intelligence, what becomes very fun as you know, statistics are a funny thing, right? And economic modeling is a very funny thing because even though, you know, people in the economics world swear by predictive analytics, the reality is in data science, it's garbage in garbage out, right. So the outputs always depend on the inputs. So let's say you're doing an underwriting model, and you're looking at an apartment building, and and you say, well if I buy this apartment build in this way, my internal rate of return is going to be 25%. Okay. Now, internal rate of return, net present value is a, is an output or their outputs based ultimately on the strength of those outputs are only as good as the strength of the inputs.   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: And the very important inputs that affect an IRR and NPV, which ultimately led to two of the most important metrics to help you decide whether it's a buy a property or not are rent growth, expense inflation, refinancing interest rate; if your IRR and NPV is based on on refinance, because obviously IRR and NPV has to be based on an exit model. And the exit model can either be a refi or it can be a sale; disposition. And then if it's a disposition, while your IRR and NPV is based, ultimately off the reverse, the reversion cap rates, so the exit cap rate upon sale. Now what everyone's doing right now, in the multifamily market, especially small investors, and mid-market investors is they're just entering these inputs. You know, they're just playing it by ear, and they're not even playing it by ear. They're coming up with these random inputs that are based off absolutely nothing. I just had a huge discussion on LinkedIn about this, with a couple of investors where one guy was saying, well, you know, if I buy it at 5% cap rate, my underwriting model, what I do is, to establish the reversion cap rate. So the cap rate upon eventual sale, let's say five years, is I add 20 basis points to the purchase cap rate per year. So if I bought it at five today at a 5% cap rate, well, then five years from now, I predict that I'll sell it as 6% cap rate, okay. And, you know, people kind of hide behind this type of rule of thumb model, say, well, I'm being conservative, therefore, my underwriting models very good. The reality of it is your underwriting model is bullshit. Okay. It's not worth the the Excel spreadsheet that it's been written upon. The reality is, where are you pulling this, this expansion of 10% or 20%,10 or 20 basis points per year? What are you basing that off? Right? That's what anyone should be asking, What are you basing this off? While being conservative. How do you know you're being conservative?   James: Yeah.   Nikolaï: How do you know you're not being optimistic? Right? You could be being you could actually be very optimistic with that. And conservative might be and then an increase of 0.25 a year, right? The reality of it is that everyone underwriting deals, right now, they're not basing their inputs off any data, right. And they're definitely not basing it off any predictive analytics, because it's one thing to have the data, the historical data. But you know, just because you have historical data doesn't mean necessarily, that's going to repeat itself in the future. That's why we have predictive analytics. So let's say that based on historical data, your 5% acquisition cap rates will actually be a 5.5 in five years. Now, the problem with that is that the future, that history is never guaranteed of the future, right. So that's why you then have to plug in various scenarios where you're considering this. And that's where predictive analytics come very difficult because you're pretty much just kind of taking a shot in the dark and basing things off the past, but you're putting in like a margin of error. With machine learning and artificial intelligence, you're able to make your predictive models better ex post based on ex ante results. So let's say you create a model to predict the future cap rates, well, you want to predict the future cap rate of in five years, it's your goals to sell within five years. Well, if you predict that today, the probability that your five-year cap rate from now is going to be precise, is a lot lower than let's say, in four years, you predict the cap that same cap rate, right, because you'll be closer to your exit. So there'll be less room for margin of error. So what machine learning and artificial intelligence will allow you to do is to consistently kind of reset your model as time advances. So maybe your initial model based upon acquisition was off. But as you advance in time, the artificial intelligence and machine learning continues on training that same model, the same algorithm that you had, and adapts the various inputs and algorithms to make it more and more precise as you get, as you get closer. And on top of that, as you get closer, the range of distribution of property probabilities get smaller. So it's a double effect, your predictive models get even tighter and tighter as time goes by. And that's where [inaudible00:26:03] machine learning and artificial intelligence can really help out. Is that instead of just plugging in these ridiculous exit cap rates, and ridiculous growth rates and ridiculous inflation of expenses, and absolutely ridiculous refinancing interest rates, when we get closer and closer to being able to actually put in inputs that are based on something very, very solid and then, therefore, our underwriting models will become more and more precise. And what we want in underwriting when you're buying a property, whether you're a syndicator, and you're responsible for money of your LPs, or whether it's your own money, the goal of underwriting is not to be conservative. That's not what the goal of underwriting is. And anyone who says that they underwrite, and they're concerned, their underwriting is conservative, what they're really telling you is they don't know how to underwrite, okay.   James: Yeah.   Nikolaï: You don't want to be conservative, you want to be right on the dot, that's what you want to do with underwriting, you want to be as precise as possible because the reason that you buy the property today is you buy it for future cash flows. And cash flows can come in various ways, they come in an annualized cash flow so, so free cash flow, they come in the appreciation of the asset, so the value of that asset gains because of various market dynamics and because of the way you're, you're managing that property. And they also come through the capitalization of your mortgage. So there's a part of your mortgage that you're paying down, which is principal, right. So those are the three cash flows that you can receive. Now, when you're underwriting a deal, and you're looking at how much you should pay for, say, this hundred unit building you're looking at, well, if your inputs are off, you might buy that property. But it's a bad acquisition because you were too optimistic in your inputs. But it also happens that you were too conservative in your books, therefore, you didn't buy the property. Because if you input that at the exit capital, that property is 7%, but, in reality, five years from now, the exit cap rate is five and three quarters, well guess what? You missed one hell of an opportunity.   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: And in real estate investing, the most important thing is time value of money, we only have a very limited time during our lifetimes in which we can invest and create wealth. And we only have so many hours during the day. Therefore the cost of opportunity, the time value of money are the things that we should consider the most in our underwrite. And that's really where machine learning and artificial intelligence will help investors become much, much better. Obviously, you also need education, right? You have to understand these, I mean, this is advanced stuff. And I'm trying to kind of explain it in a simple way, where people who don't have master's degrees and PhDs in finance and engineering can understand it. But the reality of the matter is that multifamily investing is very, it's a very complex, it's a very sophisticated asset class, and you need a certain level of education.The problem being right now, despite the very high level of education that some investors have, we just don't have solid, predictive analytics tools and data to be able to make sure that we're actually able to transfer education into decent acquisitions.   James: Yeah. Well, that's very interesting, because exit cap rate is always being misused or mis-conservative right? So --   Nikolaï: Well, even entering cap rates, even acquisition cap rates, I see people saying, well, you know, I'm not gonna buy that property because it's a five cap rate and the markets trading at 5.5. Okay, is that a stabilized property? No, it's a value add property. Well, the cap rate doesn't, the cap rate is meaningless then. A cap rate is a metric of a stabilized asset. If the asset is not stabilized, there is no cap rate, because a cap rate is a perpetual annuity. It's a return metric, based on an unlevel perpetual annuity, which means the same cash flow every year forever.   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: Now, if you want to be able to calculate that your property has to be stabilized. So if you're not buying a property, because it's a five cap rate, and the market sharing at 5.5, but it's a value add deal, well, I'm sorry, I'm sorry to tell you, you should change, you should change fields, you should go play, you should go to Las Vegas and put it on red.   James: Not only that, I mean, not only new investors don't understand the entry cap rate doesn't matter [inaudible 00:30:46] and I don't know, I never see a reason not to do a stabilized deal. Not on commercial, right? So for me, I'm always [inaudible00:30:53] guy, that's why I --   Nikolaï: Well, unless you're a private equity firm or your family office or you're a RET or you're an ultra high net worth individual who now has, you know, net value of anywhere between ten and hundred and fifty million dollars, there's no real reason to do stabilize deals, right. The reason you wanted to stabilize deals is, because you have a very high net worth, or because you're trying to de-risk your portfolio. Right?   James: Correct.   Nikolaï: That's why you would just stabilize deals for small cap or mid cap investor.   James: Yeah, yeah. Most of the time. I mean, commercials always value at play. I mean,   Nikolaï: Of course.   James: I mean, there's a lot of people doing stabilized deal nowadays, just by getting a higher mortgage and getting slightly lower price, play on the mortgage side with the interest to get a cash flow, but --   Nikolaï: And that can work if you're a neurosurgeon, right? If you're a surgeon making a million and a half a year, and you're 35 and you say, well, you know, I want to start buying multifamily property because I like, I like real estate and I like the tangible part of the asset class. But I don't need any money right now, because I'm making a million, I'm making a million and a half a year. I don't need any cash flow. And I'm very long term and I just want to build myself a nice retirement, you know, because you know, that's what I want as objective. Well, then yes, buy stabilize property or be an LP and syndication, or purchase that stock in the [inaudible00:32:23], that's fine. But if your goal is to increase your wealth exponentially, in a short period of time, and what I mean by a short period of time is fifteen to, five to fifteen years. Well, then, yeah, you're gonna have to do some kind of value add, you can't just do financial arbitrage all the time.   James: Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of deals out there in different asset class, which can give you that cash flow, right. I mean, you can buy a stabilized mobile home park, you know, it'll give you higher cash in cash than any multifamily deals.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: So even self-storage, or even multifamily, which has been stabilized, you get, you'll get good cash flow. But how long will that cash be guaranteed? Because you have a very tight DSER at that point of time. And let's say the market turn, you may not be, your DSER might be compromised right now, because you don't have any buffer. Right?   Nikolaï: Especially if you did not properly manage the terms of your mortgages. Right. So that's very dangerous. Like if you feel that you're, if you feel that the markets going to shift, say interest rate wise, the easiest way to kind of pull yourself out of that situation you just talk about is, you know, just take longer-term mortgages, you know, make sure that the mortgage does not end in five years, make sure it's a 10 year term, or even maybe a 30 year term. Right? That's, that's the easiest way to manage that risk.   James: Yeah, just do a hard loan.   Nikolaï: Right.   James: Which gives you like, 45 years. I mean, there's the other trick that a lot of people play is, you know, showing you need cash in cash based during IO period. And nowadays, people are getting five years, seven years, IO period and sometimes people think, oh, I will not hold, you know, that deal for long term. I mean, you are hoping on not holding, holding, right. But you do not know what's going to be happening to the economy, right?   Nikolaï: It's a dangerous game to play. And I'm not saying don't play it, but make sure you have the, make sure you have the education and the know-how to be able to manage that risk. It's all risk management. Ultimately, that's what it is.   James: Yeah, yeah.   Nikolaï: The problem, the problem is a lot of people are doing this, and they don't know what the hell they're doing.   James: Yeah, I mean, I think so there's so much of capital out there right now, looking for money to be placed in some way.   Nikolaï: Oh definitely.   James: And people don't think that are they going to putting 1% in the CD, I might as well put here and get like six, seven per cent, right? Cash Flow, right? And,--   Nikolaï: And that's, that's the retail market. Like that's, that's small investors like me and you the reality of is the real cap, the real capital flow right now is at the institutional level, there is so much higher level money and smart money searching for returns right now. I mean, we can't even fathom small investors, how much money, I mean, family offices, typically, if you take the family office market, typically always allocated maybe like, I don't know, depending on the family office in the region, but usually anywhere between, you know, maybe eight to twelve per cent of their overall asset allocation, capital allocation to what they call alternative assets, right. And real estate as part of alternative assets. Now, over the last 10, I'd say over the last 10 years, the last decade, family offices have become more and more in tune to the real estate markets. High net worth families also, especially towards like multifamily real estate, and more and more real estate is no longer considered just as, as something under the alternative asset umbrella. But now it's kind of becoming its own umbrella. And what that's doing is that instead of family offices, and we're talking about family offices that have trillions of dollars, right. These are not these are not small things, these are big moving bodies with a lot of capital, we're talking about multi-billions of dollars, not trillions, multi-billion dollar family offices, that are now instead of allocating, you know, 8% to real estate, well, now they're allocating 20% to real estate. So and that's, that's a scale like, there's a lot of them out there. And we haven't even talked about the private equity firms. We haven't even talked about the pension funds, the International pension funds, you know, people talking about globalization and international money, thinking that it's just, you know, rich Russians is going to Sunny Isles, Florida, buy $10 million condominiums. That's not what it is. The global movement of money to American and Canadian Real Estate are things like the Amsterdam teachers pension fund, or government workers pension fund, you know, allocating, allocating, you know, 100 billion dollars to the American real estate market. Now that's, that has a big, that puts a big dent on the supply and demand of real estate. And that's what ultimately drives property value is much more than interest rates. Interest rates only, only influence property values, like people were talking about, especially the last couple of years, all we know, if interest rates go up, cap rates will follow up, they'll go up. That's not true. Capital flow drives cap rates and values and properties and multifamily; interest rates only influence cap rates and values.   James: Very interesting perspective, that's you are right. There's so many, too much money, even out of United States is looking for money to place, right. Like the other dad had a call from the UK. It's a family office who want to invest in the UK and they're looking for like operators like me, and I was asking them, what's the return expectation? They say this 22% IRR credits and I said, well, I [inaudible 00:37:58] you guys, I can get better money in the United States right, so --   Nikolaï: Exactly. And all the, all the money from the quantitative easing the follow the 2008 crash, I mean, all that quantitative easing money, a lot of it still, after even 10 years, has not even found a place for it yet. Right? So there, there's a lot of money chasing deals, there's a lot of money chasing deals.   James: Correct. Correct. Right. That's true. That's true. So coming back to the exit cap rate. So I know that's one of the hardest parameters to measure. Right? So.   Nikolaï: Absolutely.   James: But can you clarify again, how did you, how would you use artificial intelligence to find that a more accurate exit cap rate? You know, T minus five, my T minus 5, five years earlier, before you hit that five years mark of selling, assuming five years of selling.   Nikolaï: So it's the computing power, right. So it's a computer, what we do is, we'll build, so we'll do we'll say, I'm sorry for anyone who hasn't studied, you know, high level university finance, but or statistics, you know, we'll build a, say, a regression model. So we'll look at past data. We'll plug all that in, in order to build a predictive model, a future model being able to come out with future cap rates, and, you know, the more data that we're able to plug into our regression model. So historically, what real estate institutions and economists have use is what they call the linear regression model, use the Monte Carlo simulations. Now, the problem with the linear regression model is that you know, past transactions or data are, are, are also affected a lot by various things like, you know, political environment, and capital markets. And there's a whole bunch of factors. So there's a new model that's being used more and more, especially with a lot of postdoctoral students in statistics, it's called a Quantile regression model. So that's where we're able to create that same kind of, I'm saying this in layman's terms as much as possible, we're able to take past historical data, build that kind of linear model, kind of, like build that line chart for people to understand, and we kind of repeat that line chart in the future. But we're also able to start to weigh that those data points with various things like a new government, with quantitative easing, with the war, with various factors that may be affected that models to make it less linear. And then we're able to start to better predict future stats and future cap rates. So that's the first step of it. The second step is, let's say, right now, we built our Quantile regression model. And now we compute it and what it says to us is well, T minus five cap rates, or five-year cap rate is going to be between, let's say, we have a couple of tracks, it's hard to explain to people who have not done statistics. But we have a couple of tracks. And ultimately, what it says is that the highest probabilities are that cap rate is going to be between 5.75 and 6.10% in five years for that specific market. Now, like I said, as we get closer to the five year period from now, the less the margin of error is, because we're closer and multifamily market moves very slowly. So predicting, the easiest way to understand is predicting 25 years out from now, it's very hard? Your 25 year prediction is going to be way more, there's more room for it to be completely off than your two-year prediction. So we build a model for the five-year prediction, and then starting tomorrow, every day, our artificial intelligence recalculates that model. So as it recalculates, the model gets more and more precise, because let's say we took statistics from today to 20 years ago, let's say we took the cap rate of that market, starting from today, and 20 years back. Well, obviously, the next 20 years are not going to be exactly the last 20 years. But that's ultimately what statistics do, we try and kind of say, well, let's take the last 20 years, there's a margin of error, that's what's going to be the next 20 years.   So what's cool with the artificial intelligence is without actually having to do anything, every day, the artificial intelligence kind of brings the model a day closer and adapts the model with more and more weight on what's going on right now, rather than what happened 20 years ago. And the artificial intelligence is also able to measure what today it predicted for yesterday, versus what actually happened. And what's the spreading difference and what caused that spread? And therefore, once it's able to determine what caused that spread, it'll add that into the equation for the future cap rate model so it becomes much more precise.   James: Yes, but don't try to run it in iteration on a daily or monthly basis to watch the whole investment process. But how do you make it on day zero? Well, today we're buying today how does it iterate then when on a day zero?   Nikolai: Well, what it is I don't understand the question.   James: So my question is, you said the data is being fed into the system to get more accurate exit cap rate. But you're making a decision to buy today? Is the iteration happening from today to all the investment cycle? Or do you do it earlier before you decide to buy a deal?   Nikolai: Okay, I understand what you mean. So like, for determining your actual purchase cap rate,   James: Yes, correct whatever price that I'm going to pay today because that's what I'm getting into the deal. That's the point of me making a decision, whether this is a good deal, and I'm going to be raising money and telling everybody it's a good deal.   Nikolai: The purchase cap rate is a whole other set of statistics and data models. That's more I'd say, determining today's cap rate is much more endeavor of collecting more historical data. Because like I said, let's say JLL Jones Lang LaSalle which is one of the biggest brokerages, they come out with reports and say, Okay, well, the cap rate, let's say in Austin is, 5.2%. Let's say the mean cap rate is 5.2%. Well, that's based on maybe what like 30 or 40%, of actual transactions that happen because they don't have data on like the off-market transactions, or the pocket listings or this and that, right. And on top of that, they haven't normalized the cap rates on whether, let's say, a building traded at a 4.6 cap rate. Well, as we said, if that property wasn't stabilized, well, then that cap rate is off. That's not a good cap rate. So that's a second thing. So for establishing what you should pay to the intrinsic, what's intrinsic value today. that's ultimately what I think the question is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but let's say you're looking at a 100 unit property, what is the actual intrinsic value of that property? What's the real capital I should be buying at? Well, that's a question of having the proper volume of data, Okay, number one. So that's what we're working on right now is making sure we keep on building our database. So instead of our market cap rates being based on the off 30 or 40%, of inventory, or transactions. Well, it'll be based off maybe 60, 70, 75%, therefore, that cap rate becomes more precise. Secondly, we actually look at every transaction and say, qualitatively because that's the first thing is a quantitative aspect, in statistics, we have quantitative, qualitative. So the quality of the data, once we have the quantity, we look at the cap rates and say, okay, that property traded for a 4.2 cap rate. Was that a stabilized property? No, it was not. Once we add the cap x, we have the new revenues. And we adjust the sales price for cap x, but we also adjust NOI. Now we can look at the stabilized cap rate. So that's the qualitative aspects of it. And now we're able to say, here are the market cap rates, here's the low end of cap rates, here's the high end of cap rates, here's the mean, or the media. And here's that range of cap rates. Because cap rates are based on the Capri calculation ultimately, even though people think it's NOI divided by sale price, I'm sure that's not what a cap rate is, that's how you find the cap rate of a soul stabilized property. The actual cap rate calculation or formula is a mathematical equation of R minus G, it's algebra, so are being returned minus g, which is growth. And R is defined as RF plus RP. So the risk-free rate plus the risk premium that you as an investor are looking for or that the market is looking for, a perceived risk premium, obviously. So what we want to do then, that would be like a third step, and we're not at that level right now. But I hope within the next couple of years, we will be, and I'm sure you as an engineer, probably understanding how valuable our ability to do that would become for the market. Is that then you're starting to be able to say, well, right now, that property is being listed at a say, let's say the range for cap rates in Austin is really five to six, obviously, six is going to be in the worst neighborhoods. Five is going to be the best neighborhoods because it's a matter of risk. Well, then you're looking at the property, let's say it's at a 5.7 cap rate. But it's kind of on the limit of a bad neighborhood, good neighborhood. And then you're able to intrinsically say, but the intrinsic cap rate of that property, the real intrinsic value of that cap rate is actually 5.3. Now, if you didn't know that, and you just said, well, the average cap rate is 5.7 well, it's not so much of a deal, I'm not gonna buy that property. But now with this new data, what you're able to see is, wait a minute, it looks more expensive than what it should be but in reality it's not, it's actually cheaper because the real intrinsic value is a 5.3 cap rate. And that would really unlock the potential of what we call value investing, what like a Warren Buffett has built his entire career off of the stock market? Well, he was able to build that value investing exists so much, in the stock market, because of the quantity and the quality of the data. The quantity of data is accessible to everyone, the quality of the data is a bit harder to get the qualitative aspects. That's why Warren Buffett was has been such a great investor, because he invested so heavily into being able to pull out the qualitative aspects of the data, well, now we would be able to do the same thing, you would be able to do the same thing as a multifamily investor. You would have access to the quantity of data needed for you, then to increase your knowledge based on the qualitative aspects of it, and then be able to properly price that acquisition. And then once you're able to do that, well, then you can go say to your investors, look, this is why I'm buying this deal. This is why it's a good deal. And if on top of that, you're able to be more precise with your exit cap rate, and the growth rates of your revenues and expenses and your refinancing rates. Well, you're going to be a much more confident investor.   James: You are making it really what you call a --   Nikolai: It's a more efficient market.   James: It's a more efficient way of actually determining your purchase because you can really just say generally, Austin is what five cap, it's not true, [inaudible00:50:46].   Nikolai: It's kind of scary to say, but we're all kind of invested in multifamily kind of half blindfold. The guys like me and you, and there's a whole bunch of other guys out there really intelligent wrestlers. We're all invested, based on intuition experience, a very strong knowledge base. But we're ultimately kind of invested with one eye closed. Now it's even worse for people who don't have our knowledge base and experience because they're all invested in completely blindfolded.   James: Interesting. So, if you can get that kind of data where you can look at the stock market, and what's the potential, especially if it's in the path of growth. And what's the risk that you're buying? There are some deals, even though you buy it at the lowest cap rate for that market, it could be still the best growth because it could be just like another big explosion, in terms of jobs, is going to be happening in that area just because of the path of growth.   Nikolai: That's so important because if you're a pro forma and you're underwriting you predicted a 2% growth rate in revenue. But in those five years, the analyze growth radio was six. Well, you probably didn't buy that property, when you should have. And the other thing is the same if you predicted a 6% growth rate, and it was two, then you bought that property you shouldn't have, But what most people will say is well, the guy who predicted 6%, he should have put in 2%, like he should have been conservative, but that's not necessarily true. That's a half-truth. That's actually a mistake in logical reasoning because the other guy who says, I'm going to plug in a 2% growth rate because that's what historically happens. What happens if you invest in a market where the growth rate is actually 6%? And that the other intelligent investors knew or predicted that it would be 6%, while they're willing to overpay, according to you for a property, and then you're not buying anything, you're not generating any returns, you're not building your wealth, and you're just kind of sitting on the sidelines there, Bah, humbugging saying, well, the markets paying way too much for the properties and these guys are stupid, stupid money, blah, blah, blah, I'm going to wait for the market to crash and blah, blah, blah, I know guys who've been saying this since 2012. And they have not bought anything since 2012. They haven't generated any returns. All under the pretext of being conservative investors. You know what, they're not conservative investors, you know why because they're not investors. They haven't bought anything, because they take themselves out of the market, and they're sitting on the sidelines, and they're just making up for lack of precision in their underwriting through, this kind of pseudo-conservatism.   James: I think it just depends on the sophistication of the investors. If you look at nowadays, multifamily has become so popular, so many people who did not have the financial education background or the way to analyze a deal. There's a lot of parameters that go into any deals. That's what you mentioned, you mentioned so many parameters, nobody will look at that. Everybody said multifamily is good. I bought it and it went 300%. And they say, Oh, I'm a really good operator. Well, actually, you should have made 500% because the market gave you at least 400%. 100%, you just did 300%, why did you do 300%?   Nikolai: That comes down to what we call the search for alpha. We want to outperform the market. And all these people and there's a whole bunch of them now there's gurus and mentors and coaches, and they're giving all these online classes or seminars or whatnot, or they're boasting about being such great real estate investors. And the reality of it is they don't even know what they did. They're like, well, I generated X percent returns, and I've created X amount of millions of dollars in profit over the last five and 10 years. But that's actually quite average. That's what the market does, as long as you are in the market. Of course, that's what you generated. Now, did you generate more than what the market did? That's the real question. And unfortunately, there are not enough people in the market asking that question. And if you're a passive investor, that's the question you should be asking your syndicator or your GP is not this is what you generated, great. That sounds awesome. You generated 22% IRR annually over the last five years. What did the market generate? The market generated 23.   James: I remember the other day I saw someone, he said, I made 60%. In one year, I bought it in the first year and I sold it in twelve months, I made 60%, I said well, you should have made that 100% because the market went up by that much.   Nikolai: And that's why I'm so bullish on education, and why I think it's so important that multifamily investors get educated and push their knowledge base, because, this is not Nintendo, this is not Xbox, we're not just playing, baseball on our PlayStation three, or Playstation four, this is serious business, and even more, so if you're syndicator. Just in the knowledge base, you know needs to continuously be expanded. And that's why data also needs to be there because knowledge without data is also quite useless.   James: Correct. So coming back to being the alpha in the market. I know you can look at different market appreciation versus how much you are making money. So coming to, let's say, for a decision where you have a deal in your hand, and you're deciding whether you want to sell or you want to refile, or you 10:31 exchange. So can you give us a good methodology to do to make that decision?   Nikolai: To make the decision on whether you beat the market or...   James: Whether you want to sell a deal, or whether you want to refinance, whether you want to hold it for long term or you want to do a 10:31 exchange? How would you approach it?   Nikolai: Well, I'd approach it on a very individual basis. Number one, I think everyone has a very different investor profile. What I mean by investor profile is, what type of returns do you want? And when? What are the strengths and weaknesses that you possess as either an owner-operator or syndicator or whatnot? What access to capital do you have? How patient is that capital? What's the cost of the capital? Now, if it's your own money, obviously, it's probably the most patient money with the cheapest cost of capital. If you're raising money from other people, well, then obviously, there's a less patient aspect to it, and the cost of capital is going to be higher. If you're taking money from bridge loans, well, that's even worse. So if you're taking money from hard money lenders, well, then obviously, your cost of capital is going to be very, very high. So these are all things that you have to consider, you also have to consider where you are in your career with regards to what it is that you want to achieve, either as annual cash flow or just overall that value and what type of risk you're willing to accept.   So ultimately, you have to be able to answer those questions initially, to be able to decide on the strategies. Because ultimately, people in multifamily investing, what they do not understand is the difference between philosophy and strategies. Now, everyone should have their own investment philosophy, based on their investor profile. Now, once you have that philosophy, what you want to do is adapt your strategies according to where you are in the market, and where you are in your career. That's something that is very misunderstood. People say, I'm a buy and hold investor. We hear that a lot in multifamily. So ultimately, what you're saying that you do not have an investment philosophy, that you think you do. You think your philosophy is to buy and hold. But buy and hold is not a philosophy, it's a strategy. So what you're saying is, ultimately, you're investing all the time throughout the whole of your career, using just one strategy. That's very dangerous because let's say the exit point of that strategy eventually, say the day that you do have to sell upon retirement because even though you're buying a whole, you might not be a legacy buy and hold investor. What I mean by that is a legacy buy and hold investor is someone who's just going to pass down the properties to their children, upon death, or upon retirement, whereas most buy and hold investors, what they really need is, I'm going to buy and hold until my retirement, then I'll start selling off. Well, what happens if, during your retirement, you're in a trough of the market cycle. What if you're in that part of the market cycle, or you're at the bottom of it, that's a really bad time to sell? Well, that's the mistake of always investing using only one strategy. So what I would say is that you have to establish your philosophy, understand that your investor profile is going to change over time. And the market cycle moves through phases, there are different phases of the market cycle and your strategies, you have to be able to use different strategies at different phases of the cycle, and at different phases of your career as your profile changes, or adapts or morphs. And that's how you then establish well, with this property, should I buy it and hold it or should I sell it? Or should I just refinance it? What should I do? And I'll give you a very concrete answer. Once I've explained all this.   I have a student here because I do teach real estate investing courses. We actually built a college we call it The College of the Emmerich's. Now you don't have to, it's not college level education. But what we're saying is that from everyday multifamily investors, if you really want to learn college level stuff without having to go to college, well, we have a couple of courses that we teach you very high-level stuff, very concrete work. You still need coaching from coaches and mentors and all that stuff. We actually teach courses. So one of my students in these courses, he's a very successful real estate investor in Montreal, Canada, Montreal is the most important multifamily market in Canada. It's a very strong multifamily market, very competitive. Now he's up to about I guess, 150 units, all on his own, no outside money, no passive money. And he started having trouble refinancing out of his properties because what he was doing, it seems a very big value add investor. So he was using two strategies value added buy and hold. But he was erroneously thinking that value-added and buy and hold was his investment philosophy, which is not, those are two strategies that are part of the philosophy. So he came to me and he said, well, look, banks have now started to tighten their DSCR ratings, and their LTV, therefore, I'm buying a property at a billion dollars, and putting in $300,000 into it. And now the market value of that property is $2 million. But I'm not able to refine it $2 million, because of the banking standards, they're only allowing me to refine out of 1.6. So now, if they're letting you refine out at 1.6, on a 75%, LTV, what they're saying is when you have to leave in 25% of 1.6 plus $400,000, that's a lot of equity, that it is unable to pull out because he was doing too much of a good job at value add. And the capital markets, the banks are not able to follow market value, banks, especially in Canada, are much more conservative than in the US, but even in the US, there is a lot of people buying properties. And they're not able to refine the whole value, because their total loan dollars are blocked by either LTV or DSCR. What I call economic value, the economic value is not as high as market transaction value. Therefore, instead of leaving 25% of equity, you're leaving 25 plus, in this case, $400,000.00. Now that's where I said to him perfect, I looked at his portfolio, I said, well, you have to adapt your strategies, you have to change the strategies, you can no longer at this moment, use the buy and hold strategy, you have to use the fix and flip strategy.   Because you're too good at fixing value add. And you're not able to pull out as much equity as you used to be through refinancing. Therefore, now you have to seriously consider selling that property. Because you can go and get $2 million for other markets right now. So that's an extra $400,000. Because he was able only to refinance 1.6 out of it. So now he's able to get the full market value, pull that cash out, and he has access to a lot of opportunities. He has a really strong bird document work. So his cost of opportunity is very high. If he's leaving all that equity, in these properties that are all stabilized, he's making way more money by doing more value-add stuff. So he made the decision and now he holds zero properties. He sold all of his 140 units because that has allowed him to get more and more cash rich, with less and less money and equity and properties and gain access to more and more opportunities. And ultimately, his annual portfolio, the total return on investment is in the 40 to 70% IRR. Whereas while he was doing buy and hold his overall portfolio was only returned to him maybe 20% if you consider the weighted average return on investment. So that's how I would attack that. I know, that's a very long-winded answer.   James: I think that's the right answer. So I mean, the return on equity, which is date right now, I mean, on this deal. There's so much of dead equity not producing cash. And if your cost of capital, which is also equal to an opportunity outside is much higher, you might as well just cash that out by selling it off.   Nikolai: Because the refinancing is living you to a liquid.   James: Recently, I mean the banks have been more stringent on refine. So the last refine they did ask me to leave 5% my cash basis, which they never did in the past, things have changed. I think that's okay. That's how the banks work now.   Nikolai: It's okay. But the problem is that on a $15 million property, you know, that's two and a half million dollars less cash you have for the next acquisition.   James: Correct. I mean, it depends on what is the cost of capital outside plus how much you can pull out and how much your equity stuck on it. So, coming back to market cycles, because I think this is one thing that I want to ask you because I think you have studied with Dr. Glenn Mueller. So right now, if I look at the latest Q1 forecast for apartments in the hyper supply market. I don't know if that's something that you are aware or not, but...   Nikolai: Nationally?   James: Nationally yes it's not a local, but lots of markets are in it for supply. It's very, very few markets are in the expansion cycle. And even though they are in the expansion cycle, they are at the last stage of the expansion cycle. And all the markets that are on expansion cycle, or the market that recovered late like Las Vegas, Phoenix and a lot of Econo markets. So can you give an overview of what do you think the market is? And what would the strategy be for investors now?   Nikolai: Well, I think number one, I would say that I try not to look at national or macro market cycles. I think that's the first thing to consider. Because multifamily real estate is so hyperlocal. So I look much more at those markets, cycles of hyper supply and expansion and contraction, I look at more of like a metro area. So like you're in Austin, Texas, I look at Austin, I wouldn't really consider the multifamily market at large, because it's kind of like looking at cap rates on an unstabilize property, it's kind of a waste of time. Now, I'd say that I haven't looked at recent data of where all the cycle, where all the markets are, the phases of the cycle. But I mean, I think it is safe to say that, most of the markets right now are in the later phases of the game, or later innings, as Howard Marks likes to say, in the stock market and capital markets. But also, as he says, we don't really know, see the thing with market cycles, and whether it be with Dr. Mueller, whether it be with Karen Trice, out of Australia, and also all the other various professors and researchers of market cycles, is

ow how to deploy it and learn about real estate. Started with the single-family space. And so, the first thing I bought was a fourplex than a bunch of houses. And then I realized it was too much brain damage in terms of just scaling. Right. I mean it's, having 12 insurance policies, 12 tenants and 12 loans and 12 of everything is kind of a pain. And so, learn about multifamily and then kind of the rest of the history. So, I've been running with that since.   James: Yes. I really disliked, the insurance part of the single family because--   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: --lot of it expires at different times of the year.   Feras Moussa: That's my biggest pain point honestly and I literally will, I'm willing to pay a premium for a broker that'll just take care of it and I just don't have to think about it because it's just not worth the hassle of thinking through and spending the time and effort there.   James: Yes. Yes. I think you can pay like a monthly is the same amount and it's all automated, but insurance is one thing you have to print out and you have to scan, and you have to do all kinds of things.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   James: So, let's go a bit more into the thought process here before we go into the details of your deals and all that. So, three IT guys, right? I'm also with an electrical engineering background with some software. Why do you think a lot of these IT guys like commercial real estate investing, especially in multifamily?   Feras Moussa: Yeah, I mean.   Ben Suttles: From my perspective, I think it's the numbers right. I think it's-- you come from a kind of an analytical side of the brain, right? And I think in real estate, a lot of it is numbers driven. Now there's a relationship side of the business, right? Which we all have to have. We have to have that side of it to raise equity and obviously work with the brokers and stuff like that, but at the end of the day, it's a numbers game, right? You've got to be able to underwrite the deals. You've got to be able to make, projections, financial projections and all that as numbers and spreadsheet driven. And I think that's a lot of why the IT and engineering guys, get into this space. Also, I think the other thing is too is that allows us to be creative. When we're not able to be creative in some, some respects, whenever you're able to kind of put your stamp on the rehab of a property and improve that and, and kind of get out and roll your sleeves up. That's another thing that we were lacking probably in a lot of our jobs. And so, I think, at least personally for me, that that might be part of the reason why, I don't know, Feras might have another take on it as well.   Feras Moussa: Well, no, I think the numbers things. Definitely one of the biggest factors, but it's also, it's a space that you can learn it yourself, right? Meaning, you know, a lot of engineers are willing to go above and beyond, spend the effort, research, read books and learn it. You can do that in this space and, there's not like an engineering exam at the end of it where you have to do, you can pass. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: And so, it's the kind of thing where you can learn it and it makes sense, right? The numbers don't lie. And so, two engineers, right? It's like, you can see a clear path of the progression, right? There's not like a leap of faith any point in time. And then the other part of it too is problem-solving, right? I think all engineers like problem-solving as part of the challenge. And to me, that's what I like about multifamily. It's bigger and harder, right? Sure. I could've probably scaled out a rental portfolio part, really wanted to, but I mean, it's just not fun to buy, hundred thousand-dollar assets, $150,000. It's a lot more fun to do bigger projects, a bigger team, and really, work through each issue as it comes up.   James: Yes. Yes. I mean in my mind is a lot about-- I mean real estates, there's a lot of creative thinking that you need to put on and that's really fun, right? Because you want to, I mean, I'm sure when you guys handle deals, we want to solve that problem. Right?   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: You want to break; I'm going to break that deal. Right? Hey, why? Like for me, I always say, how can I break this deal? Why you should, why you should work for me. Right? That's why I think, I'm sure you guys do that too.   Ben Suttles: I was doing that earlier yesterday, man. Yes, man, [inaudible 13:36], how do you blow up the deal, right? And--   James: How do you blow up the deal? There must be something wrong with this deal. Let's find that out.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 13:42].   Feras Moussa: Oh yes that's fun. Let's have a deal that makes sense. It's like, this not right, I'm just going to offer a lower, I might've otherwise because something doesn't make me, go 100%.   James: Yes. If that [inaudible] make sense, you are like, let's say to break it. Something must be wrong and when you can't break it then, then it makes sense. That okay, that's [inaudible 13:58].   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: That's the one.   Feras Moussa: And then the other part too is that it's a people game, right? I mean, so something, some engineers might not like it, but at least me, I mean nothing. Ben, same. We like it because it's a team effort. It's not one person. It's how do you combine people really get the thing done both on, on the GP side as well as the operations side, right? How do you build rapport with your manager, with your regional, whoever it is? Right. And kind of help accomplish the goals and give them motivated. To me, that's part of the fun.   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I guess what we do is like project management on steroids.   Ben Suttles: Feras, if you touch us up on that, that was really interesting to earlier which was the project management piece, which I had forgotten about. I mean a lot of us to come from big, we've done big projects, we've worked with teams and let's be honest, and this is a team sport, right?   James: Absolutely.   Ben Suttles: This is, yes you could maybe be solo and respectful, you've got a team in the background that's helping you accomplish your goal and you've got project management or manage that whole entire process in order to get it to close. And then even after you're closing it, right? In order to asset management or to do the asset management, to do the construction management and for you James too, you do the property management.   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: All of that stuff is, you're juggling a lot of different pieces and making sure that the ball is continuously moving forward towards that goal. And I think a lot of IT and engineering folks come from that background, understand that. So, once you can kind of segue that into the commercial real estate state space, it's just essentially just project management at the end of the day.   James: Yes. Yes. You one might, throughout my 22 years in the corporate world, I think 16 years I was a manager and I was also a project manager and I was a very good project manager. I need all that translates to this multimillion-dollar business that you're managing, right?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Because to make sure your transactions happen correctly; you need to make sure you communicate to people. And that's what we all learned in project management. But how do you over communicate? How do you make sure people don't mess up? How do you take proactive action to de-risk a project? Right? So that's, that's how the game is played. Even in the commercial real estate with this [crosstalk 16:00].   Ben Suttles: And it's never going to be straight forward. Right? There are always challenges.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So, I mean, that's where, we're those project management skills really kind of come into play because, anybody can run a smooth project, right? And we're nothing ever bad happened, but let's just be honest. There's always something that happens.   James: Yes, yes.   Ben Suttles: And so, you have to, you have to have that, that acumen to be able to, to keep that ball moving forward towards that common goal.   James: Yes. So apart from the, IT education itself, do you guys think that your work experience, the classes that you have been at your workplace and the environment that you have gone through? I mean as given certain edge to you guys as well.   Feras Moussa: I will say absolutely. Like I said, I mean what we do is project management on steroids. Right? And so, having done that for years had-- knowing how to keep track of multiple projects simultaneously. That's another thing too, right? A lot of people will get into the business and they realize like, hey, syndicating start to finish is not a walk in the park. There's a lot that happens, both lending and legal and issues come up and they, it's a lot to keep track of. But then she tried to do two deals at a time. Right. And how would, it's not really two weeks, it's kind of a square, issues. So, I would say absolutely. Right. And then the other thing that we've seen, being on the tech side is how do we differentiate ourselves from other people too, right? How do we, create a better impression for investors? How do you position, everything professionally, right? All of our stuff is mobile friendly. All of our stuff, certain ways. And those are the things that I've brought at least from the tech world, to make sure that we kind of do and do well.   Ben Suttles: Yes, I think, I think efficiencies, right? That you come from that IT engineering background, it's all about productivity, efficiency, how can we automate things and James you probably saw the same thing when he got into space and to completely fracture. A lot of it is backward or outdated and there's a, there's a lot of low hanging fruit stuff, ways that can be improved and I'm sure your team is looking to do that constantly and so are we. And that's all come that comes from our background, right?   James: Background, yes.   Feras Moussa: I told Ben I have to stop myself from wanting to start a software company every few months. Being an entrepreneur and being a software guy, it's like man, this place some of the stuff we do is pretty archaic.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Ben Suttles: I think real estate is the last, most, what it called?   Feras Moussa: [crosstalk 18:28].   James: Fragmented industry, you know, that is, they're like something like AI or something is going to take over soon, right. Because there's so much inefficiency.   Ben Suttles: Yes. But it's, you can take it to an extent, but then there's that personal side, that relationship side. Right. And I think that's kind of, that's, that's one of the parts that I took from my former job, which was, a lot of sales and business development work as well. Right. Taking that, that networking, that relationship building side, that building rapport side into this space. But, I mean, I agree. I think there's their software and AI and these types of things are going to automate a lot of that back-office part of the process and maybe even the analysis piece. But there's always going to have to be those two people coming together to make a deal happen, right?   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Because ultimately, it's going to be one person or one group and trying to sell on one group trying to buy, and you have to come with some kind of an agreement. Right. And then even after you buy it, right, there's always those relationships with vendors and employees and all those different things that you have to kind of manage to. But anything that we can bring and that we've seen in our past gig where we could make that more efficient here, we're, we're obviously trying to introduce that.   James: Got It. Got It, got it. So, let's go back to the business side of it. So, what are your guys' focus, in terms of market? Right now, currently Atlanta and some cities in Texas, right? Why don't you guys talk about, why did you choose these two markets?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, in terms of why we chose them, I mean, the same reason you're probably in San Antonio to some degree, right? We're looking for strong, attractive markets that are not a single industry that is growing right. Population and the business side. And then, really the important thing for us to is the yield, right. So that's why we got into San Antonio too, was that we can't find returns in Houston. We look at a lot of bills and use of our base and we don't own anything in Houston, right? We're looking for returns that we can, that that will actually, you are looking for deals that'll give actual turns, foreign investors. That's also why we don't look in Dallas, right? Price points are too high that you having to pay so much that you basically have no yield on the deal. And so that's kind of what really got us into Atlanta. We got us into San Antonio as well and yes, Beaumont's kind of a slight story, but those are the things that we look for. And then in terms of future deals, right? If future markets, so, we've really kind of manage to, I would say streamline a lot more of our acquisition pipeline, right? In terms of underwriting deals, identifying deals and really keeping a pipeline going. And so, what that's allowed us to do, especially with a fulltime asset manager now, is we can look at a lot more deals. So, we've kind of identified two markets that we want to get into, hopefully, this year. Orlando in North Carolina. And that just, just to give us, just to keep our pipeline going. Right. We can keep looking at more and more and more deals. Yes, we'll hopefully be finding something that makes sense.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   James: So how do you guys choose your market? So, like now you say Orlando and not Carolina, right? So, I have a lot of stats on Orlando because I know it's growing very quickly. So, let's take, not Carolina. Why did you guys identify? Not Carolina?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I think, I think all of it boils down to population growth, job growth. We also like to find areas and that's not every single market, but I like to see a good concentration of different universities and colleges as well because I feel like a lot of the bigger corporations are going to follow where they're going to have a good funnel of potential students to take from it as well. So, we'll look in college towns as well too, because, but let's be honest, North Carolina, it's got, the research triangle, it's got a ton of universities. And, it's calling to be called the Wall Street of the south. The problem with North Carolina is that we're not the only ones looking there. So, it's, it's pretty competitive there too. But it's got a lot of those good data points that we like to see in terms of population economic growth--   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --that you see in Texas and in Georgia. And really, we are, we look at in Texas for quite some time and we found Georgia was very, very similar in a lot of ways to Texas. And so that's the reason we started kind of focusing on Atlanta as well. But it ultimately boils down to, is there enough population job growth to continue to drive demand for the workforce housing that we're, that we're looking for. So, people are always like, well, you're not renting out to fortune 500 folks. So why do you care about that? I'm saying, well, the ancillary service companies and service jobs, they're going to feed into this white-collar job is what we're looking for. So, if you don't have any of the fortune 500 stuff rights, then there's not any real need for a lot of the infrastructure where a lot of these people are going to be working. So, when you, when you look at it in Texas, when you look at it and Georgia, right? One of those people is there. So there has to be serviced workforce type jobs that are going to have to be feeding into that. And that's why we like those markets. And, we see a lot of that same type of thing happening in Orlando and some other markets and Florida and as well as North Carolina. And we've looked in Tennessee, we've looked in some other spots as well. From us we've got so much deal flow coming in that in order for us to be a little bit more strategic work as a team, we've decided to focus on about three or four major markets and then just go deep on those and then we can go horizontal and find out that markets in the future.   James: Got It. So, let's say now today you're getting a deal, right? Let's say from North Carolina, what other steps that you guys take? So today let's say, I mean how do you guys get deals nowadays. Is it through broker relationship, off-market, on the market? How are you guys sorting out the deal flow?   Ben Suttles: Yes, everything in between. A lot of it is brokers. A lot of is people that know what's his buyers, people that you know, we will get the deal closed, right? Whether it's the broker that knows it and they might know. Seller. One thing I tell every broker is like, hey, if you have a deal that you don't have the exclusive on and you need someone to make a pre-emptive offer to try to get that locked down. Like, where are your guys? Right? So, you find ways to motivate the broker is motivated. Other people that know someone that knows someone. So, we, I mean really deals come in all shapes and forms. And so, for us, the biggest volume is definitely the brokers, but it's really, it's not about the ones that they just email outlasted, right? It's really about the follow-up deals that maybe are near, getting to the finish line and getting the finish line in terms of the-- in terms of the marketing, but they haven't had any such interest or for whatever reason. Right. So, I think that's important. So, once the deal comes through in terms of the analysis side of LLC, dig into the P12, dig into the OEM, but more importantly, talk to them. Sorry, go ahead.   James: I'm just saying, what do you look for first in the deal? Do you get a-- so you get a deal, what do you look for? What are the, what do you, what's your sniff test because I --   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: underwrite everything, right? What's the sniff test?   Feras Moussa: I'll tell you what my first sniff test. I look at what the average rents are and what their price point is, and then I can deduce from that, right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Is this going to be anywhere. And really what I'm doing kind of mentally ballparking what the cap might be. Right? But really, I'm looking at what are the average rents and what does the purchase price. Right. And then yield. Is there, are they close enough that I think that there's some meat on the bone, right? It's really what it boils down to. I'll give you a real example. There was a deal in Atlanta that I-- so North Atlanta, Atlanta has a really unique market. North Atlanta is really expensive. South Atlanta is the complete opposite. There's a deal that came through on the northern side and I think the average rents on that deal were like, 850 $900. So, I'm okay, this one might be at a reasonable price point. Right? And so, I'm like in my head, mentally I'm like, okay, let me call the broker. If this is 80 maybe 90 you know, there's a deal to be had here. Hey, call the broker. And it's 130 a door, right? So, I mean, that already instantly ruled it out. And so, you're really looking for some of those kinds of low hanging fruit just to figure out, okay, is this still even in the ballpark for us to look into it anymore.   Ben Suttles: Yes, absolutely. And I think the first sniff test James is really, I mean then the location of it too, right? Do you know what I mean? We're getting the deal flow and these places that we want to be, and we've identified different pockets within those submarkets that we want to be in. So, if it's not within one of those pockets and we're automatically, putting that to the side. Now that doesn't mean that there's not a deal there. Right.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: So those are usually kind of the maybe deals and we're, we want to kind of circle back maybe we're bored or something. Let's do that one-- -   Feras Moussa: Exactly, whether we are bored, we go back and look at those deals.   Ben Suttles: Yes, we'll go back and take a look at those. Right. But we're looking for that are going to be the net, that those are some market pockets, right? That we like. And then from there, right, just like what Feras was saying, you can almost, you can almost immediately tell if it's going to work. Right. And you pencil out so many deals. I mean, we, at this point we've analysed hundreds and hundreds of deals. So, you can on them almost look and say, oh, that's not going to work for us. Right. Just based on what they're asking for. And you can also kind of tell that to, by the price per pound versus, sometimes the median income of the area. Right. I mean, are you going to be able to achieve the rent that it's going to, it's going to take to make that deal work. And if you're going to be maxing out your median income, then it's not going to work either.   Ben Suttles: So, a lot of the things that we look at, population growth, we look at job growth, all those things too. But one of the things that we also look at as the median income, right? And a lot of these is workforce housing, right? So, I mean, you look at, what's the, what's the average rent? We're usually doing the three-x income test. Whenever we're taking perspective tenants in, right? Like everybody should, and then you determine, what the median income level is and if you're going to be maxing that out, you're above that, then the first sign that something is going wrong, let's get ready to skip. They're going to stop paying rent, right? So, you want to make sure that you're under that, right? You don't want to; you don't want to be at the top of the market. Yes. Maybe they can keep up with it for a month or two where they're going to get behind. And so very, very cognizant of that.   Feras Moussa: And to add those, it's not that, if it's a lower income area, we won't buy a deal very well. It's really these are just kind of rules of thumb. And then from that, you start to work back, okay, well if it's a lower income area, can assume they are economic occupancy is going to be much slower. So, you should underwrite it that way. Right? Cause there's a deal to be had anywhere, right? I mean I'll buy any deal at the right price point, right? Assuming as long as it's, to me at least this has been new instead of a growing market. Right. And that's not a deal at f four worry about the city, essentially no one even wanted to live in that general area. But in terms of price points, in terms of, average incomes, all of that, it's really, again, depending on what price point are we buying it at.   James: So, let's say the rent and the price seems reasonable right? At the first sniff test, what's your next level sniff test? What do you guys do?   Feras Moussa: Then and actually started this. The thing I do before that is actually called the broker and just get there [inaudible 29:18].   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Right? And that's the first, usually, right? Because a lot of times there's more to this story, right? Is it, is it a partnership where you know, one of the sellers passed away and they're looking, you know, they're a little bit more motivated or is it a deal that just, the Bro, I've had brokers a little bit tell me these sellers are terrible operators, right? And you can kind of, and if you have a relationship with a broker, there'll be honest with you about that aspect. Right? Brokers are all, a lot of times brokers, I don't want to say always, but there'll always be, a lot of times we'll say, yeah, you know, you could do this and this and get, a $200 rent pop. Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Take that with a grain of salt. But I'm looking for something that's kind of that ancillary information to help the deuce. Like, Hey, is there an actual opportunity to do, what's the value add that we can do is we can kind of take that into what we just talked about. Then kind of once, like you said, once you know the numbers make sense or the deals make sense, then you start to dig in and near. That's where we really do just to, go down to the numbers, right. Look at the t 12, look at where they are today on expenses. Look at where we think we will be on expenses. Where, what does the rent currently, right? What's the spread on just the rent, the market rents versus what their marketing right. Today. I mean kind of, we really starting to put the bigger picture together. Right. And then understanding is, hey, does this make sense at a high level? Right? Yes. That's us. Sorry, go ahead.   Ben Suttles: Oh, I was just going to say, what I mean, we don't even look at the OEM. Right. Do you know what I mean? We're going straight from our perspective, right. That just use your, you'll get, you'll get the skinny from the broker, right? Because they'll usually-- but the marketing packages is the marketing package. Right. And I feel like that sometimes skews people's numbers when they look in. Concentrate on that a little bit too closely. So, it's always best than if it passes your initial test and you talked to the broker and there might be something there and you just go straight to the spreadsheet analysis. Right. Because, I mean if you start trying to dissect what they're going-- what they have in terms of pro forma income and expenses, then you start getting that none of those numbers in your mind. And guess what, there, they're making those numbers work. So, we always, we always go straight to that and then only then do I then look at the OEM and I see how far apart we are. And usually, it's pretty significant. But, it's those classic sales tips, like, below replacement costs and all of these things that they love to say, that makes it sound so sexy.   James: Yes, its--   Ben Suttles: At the end of the day and it has to pencil out. It's all about the numbers.   James: Yes. I remember in one of the deals I never look at the OM until I close because I need a logo for that property. And I say where is the logo and then I called the broker, you understand the OM, I say yes.   Feras Moussa: Oh, you had the floor plan. Yes, we had that for the floor plan. You go back to the OM and grab the floor plan that [inaudible 31:56]--   James: Exactly.   Feras Moussa: --time and effort on.   James: Yes, yes, we did a floor plan and the logo from the OM, that's it.   Ben Suttles: There you go.   James: So, it's interesting. And so, the type of deals that you guys do, I mean, where do you categorize it? Value add deep value add or [inaudible 32:14] yield play or core type of tails.   Feras Moussa: I mean right now we're focused on value add. I mean we would like to do a more, really to me, the ideal deal for us now or given where we are given, our network, et cetera. It's really kind of that B minus space. Right? We've done the heavy value add, it's a lot of work. Right? And those skills have worked out. They performed, but for us, I mean it's just she consumes you, right to some degree. And so, we're trying to less of those and we try to vary it up. Right. Always have a value add going on, having a stabilized going on. Just cause from a bandwidth perspective, right, we can kind of handle one at a time, but we don't want to take on three big value add the one time because then he would get lost in that. And so, I think for us we're typically in that C plus B minus space is really the focus for us.   Ben Suttles: Yes, yes.   Feras Moussa: One day we'll do an ADL but not in, but not-- but it's about matching it to the right equity pool. Right. If we have equity that's okay with the lesser returns. Right. We can go do a B plus or a minus. But so far, we've been kind of in the C plus B minus space.   Ben Suttles: Yes. Yes.   James: Got It. Got It. So, what about that, that strategy? Do you guys do only agency Loan, Bridge, Bridge through an agency?   Ben Suttles: I think we're doing all this. It's really deals dependent. Right. Do you know what I mean? I think the bridge has gotten a little bit of a bad rap. I mean there's, there obviously you have to be careful with it, right? You have to understand that your exit strategy, you have to be able to hit those targets in terms of, especially if it's a value add, tell him the hair on it, which is, it's going to with a bridge, right? You got to be able to hit those timetables in terms of your construction, your rehab in order to refi out of it quickly. And then at the best price point that you can write, because obviously, you don't want to have to bring money to the table. So, we'll do a little bit of the bridge, but for the most part, where everyone, just like every other smart operator, you're looking for agency debt when you can. But at the end of the day, we're looking to maximize returns for our investors. And so sometimes, going bridge versus agency has been a better way in order to do that. And people understand that there's a little bit higher of risk tolerance with those. But we always get a three-year term with two years' extension. So, at the end of the day, it's still five years on a bridge that, it's not something like an 18-month deal. So, I think that that gives people a little bit of, they feel a little bit better about it as well. But we've done agency all the way up to 12 years too. So, it's a little bit about, just depends on the deal.   Feras Moussa: Yes. For anyone listening, I mean I think we have a Ph.D. in the agency space. Unfortunately, we've had issues that people that do 50 deals never hit. So, we've seen it all. And so, if anyone has any questions, feel free to reach out. But we've seen the good, the bad and the ugly on the dead space. So, it's, you kind of, you work through those problems, right? If you get the closing, which is the good news, but then you kind of learn from it and you know, start to figure out what are the things that could be learned from this to basically avoid the situation in the future. Right. We've had, we've really seen a variety of things. Unfortunately--   James: Oh, let's talk about--   Feras Moussa: --that's where Ben lost all this hair.   Ben Suttles: Just one. Just one lender, which I'll tell if you want to email me, I'll tell you which linear it was.   James: Okay, tell me the worst story with an agency, just let's just go--   Feras Moussa: The worst agency story. I'll tell you one, and this is one near and to you James. So, it's in San Antonio.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: San Antonio deal its a, a deal that pencils in really well. And for those of you that know on the agency side, right? With a standing loan, you can do what's called fully delegated, which means that fanny lets the dust lender, which in our case could be Arbor, could be haunted, it can be any variety of them. For us, it was an Arbor deal and lets them operate in the wrong capacity, right. To some degree. And so, there's kind of a box. As long as they're within the box, Arbor could approve the deal, no questions asked. Well yes, we're like three weeks from closing pretty much at the finish line. Money's in the bank. Well, we're already looking at the next field that we had to go on and then kind of going back, what happened was that because it's the San Antonio deal and the deal pencils in really, really well, right from a financial perspective, the lender said, well hey, we can go get your five years IO. And we didn't think much of it. Right. It was like, okay, that's fine. Well, at least we'll back out to where we are today because we run the road at one-year IO. Well, long story short, this deal essentially used to be on a watch list three years ago. The sellers are only deal in San Antonio. They struggled with it. Plus, it was kind of whenever they're in the midst of a lot of rehabs. So, he got on the watch list, it wasn't on the watch list the past few years. And that whole you, that market better than we do James. And that whole area has really turned around from where it was three years ago. But guess what, it was already flagged by Fannie and they just wanted to essentially get it off their books. Right. And so, this is something very, I actually did this just the other day where I, I was talking to a broker about a deal and asked him was the saber on a watch list.   Feras Moussa: That's something I've learned to ask now because and what sucks about it is that once a lender, a dus lender, this gets Arbor went to fanny, right? Once Fannie times in, Fannie is the authority, right?   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: Versus if we would have just not ever done that, we could have closed the deal agency with Arbor, no questions asked. And so, it's a very unique situation. I don't know anyone that's actually ever encountered that. Right. But these kinds of things do happen. And so just knowing that they can happen, figure on how much risk you want to take because we would have been happy with what we had-- what we could have closed. Right. We were happy with the one-year IO. That was great. That was fine. But it's your kind of get a little bit more than that and then now completely bag of worms. So.   James: Yes, I learn, even I learned about this watch list, last week when was looking at another dealer then someone says, Oh, I backed out because of watch list, I say what is that? Right? Then we realize there are so many other issues with the deal. Right? So that's crazy. Yes. I mean for listeners, just FYI most dus lenders, they have one-year authority on a delegated underwriting. So within, if they give one-year IO, they don't have to go back to Fannie Mae and get approval. But once they go above that they have to go to Fannie Mae. And a lot of things can change when you go to Fannie Mae.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, I have learned that there are different tiers. Right? So, there's the tier two, tier three. So, if you're at higher leverage that can only give you one. But if you're willing to go down to 65% they can actually approve 5 years IO, no questions.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: So, you start to learn. And again, why did I learn that from a different deal? So, start to understand really the mechanics of what's going on behind the scene. And this is where having the right mortgage broker makes all the difference, right? They can help steer you in the right direction and help catch some of these. So, I mean for the-- for the watch list, the sellers were actually more pissed that we were about the whole, they didn't think that was going to be an issue in terms of us getting the next one. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And they never thought to just close it. You don't think it's going to be an issue.   Ben Suttles: No, they thought it was off too.   Feras Moussa: Yes.   Ben Suttles: But, do you know what I mean? I think there's that just like, like our earlier part of the conversation. Right. You know, we're project managing these things, things are going to pop up. So, we were able to make it through that process--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --and still come out on top in terms of the debt. But yes, I mean we're always looking to maximize returns and risk and minimize risk for our investors. And I think that having this different background and different debt products and having a good experience with some of these different lenders really gives us a good broad overview of the debt market and which deals are going to make sense where, and I think that that's huge when you're looking at who to invest your money with, because know some people, let's be honest. So, they'll just go straight to Fannie, if it's not Fannie or if it's not Fannie then I'm not doing it. Right.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: But I think sometimes you're missing out on opportunities there as well.   James: So, wasn't, like three weeks before closing, didn't you guys had a rate lock at that time?   Feras Moussa: No, we're supposed to [inaudible 40:01] lock a few days later.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: Like little, they're just waiting on the final. Oh, because they went to Fannie, Fannie kind of asked-- this is where really, I think we could have-- it's about positioning the story. Right. Again, I think the lender just went in thinking that it's going to be easy down the middle because really that's what they told us. Right?   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: They didn't even bother. We had a great story for the deal, for the sponsorship team. They tried to do it retroactively and kind of wants Fannie comes in it's really hard to change. But we were literally at the point of rate locking and getting, being done with the steel. Like we will do, so.   James: Yes. [crosstalk 40:36].   Feras Moussa: You do full 360 and charge full 180 and change things and kind of Redo. So, in my mind, it was really, we did, it took us to close if get that deal done.   James: Yes, it's, yes, it's, it's a day just to do it at the end because you're almost at the closing table. Right. So,   Ben Suttles: Yes.   Feras Moussa: Yes. So, so in that situation, just maybe to complete the story, right. The seller realized kind of what happened. They gave us more time, right? They gave us another 30 days they knew that wasn't really for lack of use or lack of anything that we did. And so, we're able to buy more time and then redo the process and kind of, get to where we needed to be.   James: So, did you do a different loan?   Feras Moussa: Yes. So that one we call back every investor because I mean we basically what we did Arbor realized the mistake that they made, which was they should not have gone to the lender, tell Fannie, they should have just closed. And so, they basically gave us a balance sheet loan, right? Which is like a bridge loan on their books that essentially, the short term just to get it off of Fannie's book, --   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: --then in nine months. Right. So, for us, we kind of turned it into a value add reprice scenario. Right.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: And so, when that case, we will, nine months, 12 months, somewhere around there. Right. We're also pushing our NOI as hard as you can. We'll refi, pull equity out and get back into a panty permanent loan.   James: Got it.   Feras Moussa: And so, but the deal changed, right? And so, we had to call every investor, tell every investor here's what changed, here's what happened. Then thankfully pretty much everyone stayed in the deal. Right? So that kind of-- for us that it's a sigh of relief. But also, it's like, everyone just doubled down on us. Right? So, we're--   James: Right.   Ben Suttles: --going to get babysat through the finish line.   James: Yes, the amount of pressure for you to go, on the contact to rate lock it so much. Right. So, I mean, I don't know, I mean-- there's a lot of pressure on, responsibility. You have so much money tied, and you are under the gun and you have all your reputation out there. You are doing the deal, investors are looking at you, you are to be a leader. You have very strong leaders. So.   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: Yes, it's a lot of work.   Feras Moussa: Absolutely.   James: So, kind of back to value add, right? So, you guys do value add strategy. So, what's your, what do you think is the most valuable value add?   Ben Suttles: I think, ultimately, what tenants care most about, right? I mean, whenever you're doing value add, unfortunately, you have to cure a lot of [inaudible 42:52]. You have to do a lot of things that you not going to get the best return on your investment on. But the two things that tenants care about, first being their interiors. So, what was actually in my unit, the second thing that they care about is amenities, right. Probably a distance second. Most of the time with the workforce housing, they're caring about what their units look like. And I think that's where you're going to get the best return on your investment when you're doing value add. And then you can obviously update and add on amenities as a secondary thing to that. But unfortunately, with those value adds, you got to do things like roofs and HVAC replacement and other things that just people just say, hey if I'm renting from you, I expect that to be working. So, you know, but you might be spending a hundred or two hundred grand on some of this stuff, right? So, your return on investment is almost nothing, but you have to do it. So, you've got to balance those two things, right? You've got to work in curing that deferred maintenance along with how do I push the NOI and the revenue side by, really updating the property for the way that the tenants are looking at it. So, I mean that's kind of how we look at every value-add play that we do. A combination of those two things.   Feras Moussa: So, James, is your question really specific about ROI? Like what are the things that we putting kind of deferred maintenance aside, what other things would we do to really try to maximize our return?   James: Yes, other than deferred maintenance, like the roof and all the big stuff [crosstalk 44:21].   Feras Moussa: Yes, so I mean it's, its properties specific, right? It's really depending on the asset, what it looks like currently and what is the market doing right now? That said from our experience, right? The most common thing, flooring, two-tone paint, right? And pimping out the kitchen some degree. Right? And you can go as crazy as replacing all the cabinets or you really replacing the front or even just putting fixtures, right? Like for us, fixtures are definitely cheap. Easy to do. It gives a different, pop to the thing, right? Flooring almost always, painted and really two-tone paint. It's important. And the other thing too that we like to do is really putting a backsplash. You can do backsplashes with this kind of stick on backsplash, really, really cheap to do per unit. And it gives the kitchen, which is usually known the seventies, eighties build kitchen, a bit of Pop, right? It gives it something to modernize it. Right? We didn't go as far as putting granted in. Right. But you are putting that in kind of coupled with a resurfacing. It actually looks pretty good. And then, the obvious is white and black appliances. Right?   James: So, let's say--   Feras Moussa: And that's all, white, black or aluminium.   James: Let's say how the interiors, right. So, let's say you guys lost for some reason you thought you had 100% of your interior budget, but now you need like 50% of the budget. What would you focus on, on the interior?   Ben Suttles: Yes, if the property needed any flooring or paint. Right? [crosstalk 45:38] Those are important things to think.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Yes, I mean, you got appliances too right, but I mean appliances, you're going to be two x in your interior budgeted, just adding those in. But a lot of people they take, there's a price difference between white and black appliances are really not, but there's a perception that they're a little bit higher quality. So, you can even do that too. Right? You got to replace the appliances, but you don't have a whole big budget for that. You can just go from white to black to and I think that adds a nice pop too.   James: Yes, that's a really good point. I mean I realize a lot of times if you give them even white, really nice appliances, people are happy. Right?   Ben Suttles: No. Yes, you can do, right. It's-- I mean, but like, you'll see people like, they're just ecstatic that they've got black appliances. Right now, the market is about the same in terms of pricing.   James: Correct.   Ben Suttles: So, but it's just a perception thing or just, like I said, backslash 150 bucks.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: [crosstalk 46:38].   Feras Moussa: Let me turn the question around to you, James. Would you, the same question to you, right, would you do the same thing, or would you do something else?   James: So, we, so for me, I think my most valuable value add would be just giving them good management, right? So, there are so many bad operators out there, which is mismanaging not respecting the tenants, not taking care of it. So, we just want to make sure, really good management that's on the management side. But if you go back to the interiors, I would say, of course, we do the appliances and we do the painting and flooring. That's what we would, I would say the most, so, but I think, a lot of people just love having good management people who take care of them. Everything--   Ben Suttles: Oh, absolutely. I mean, they want to feel comfortable and who miss their right. People that understand what's going on. I mean, that's to me, and that's why for all of our properties, we're big people, putting, doing parties, doing tenant events, pretending retention vents. Because from the operations side, right. This is, you have the backdoor and you have the front door, right? You don't have people renewing, right. You're going to have delinquency problems, not a delinquency problem, you're going to have an oxygen problem, right? And so really keeping people happy, renewing, right. Well, then it makes it easier on the front end to start the push friends, right? Because you have people that are enjoy working there, living there. Right. You know, for another 10, $20. Sure enough, it's more than the cost of moving. Right. And so that's absolutely.   James: Yes. I think at the end of the day the tenants just want to be felt appreciated. That you just-- so many properties out there. You don't have to be being mismanaged.   Ben Suttles: Yes, clean, quality, safe housing, man. I mean, it seems so easy and the way that I describe it, but so many operators, I've just run some of these properties in the ground and they don't take care of it. Right? And so, the tenants, therefore, don't consider home and they don't take care of it. So when you get a good operator, I know you get a good management company in there and they showed that they're taking care of the property, then by default you're going to get more loyal 10 tenants, you're going to have people that are going to be more apt to take a renewal increase, cause they like, they like coming home again. Right? It's home.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: Versus just a place just to sleep.   James: Yes. Yes. I think one of the episodes, maybe episode five or six, I interviewed, Addie Lauren from California strategic alliance and he had been doing this for 30 years, more than 1 billion in a transaction. And he told me very simple, clean, basic and functional quality is what his motto is that's it. Right?   Ben Suttles: You don't have to get; you don't have to be creative about it. Right. I mean, you know, the space that we plan is essentially workforce housing. I mean, across our whole entire portfolio, our average rents are less than a thousand bucks, right. So, folks aren't looking for crazy amenities and crazy things even in their interiors. They just want a good quality place to come home to and then, and the management side is a big piece of that too.   James: Correct, correct, correct.   Ben Suttles: Yes, she bought up a good point.   Feras Moussa: And then another thing too with good management, right. You get lower delinquency. So, for us, I mean that's night and day. We had a deal that we, one of our heavy value add deals where essentially where we were, I went back and looked at numbers July versus where we are today. We have three times more revenue collected than we will, we did before total, like literally straight revenue you and that's a combination of, cutting back the delinquency, bringing units, align, updating. But I mean, it’s, once people know that it's, someone taking care of the property and enjoying it, people want to stay there. All right. People are eating $200 rep push because guess what, this place has been completely turned around. It's more family oriented and even just bringing more families on board helps to come back for delinquency. So, for us really looking at how do you build that community and some people really cheap about it, but like, hosting these parties is you, I mean, do the math, right? How much does it cost to go get a hundred hot dog and a hundred burgers? Right?   James: Yes.   Feras Moussa: I mean it's very, very cheap, right? To be there and grill it out, have like a little patio, you know, a party, whatever it is. These things are almost, you know, half of the units rented a month, right. It's kind of thing. And so, they're almost rounding errors, errors where we are, but guess what? It changes the dynamics in the property. And so, I mean, some people don't really-- people are very short-sighted. I see. And really it has a much bigger kind of longer-term impact.   James: Yes.   Ben Suttles: And I think going along with the value add, right? I mean, you know, a lot of what we're doing is repositioning the property too, which is kind of where you're going with this James. Is bringing in better management. You're getting a better tenant profile at the same time too. So that's part of the value-add strategy as well, so once you, and once you show them that you care, you've got tenants in there that care than the properties just starts performing. There's a whole-- the energy shifts are palpable. Do you know what I mean? You go from a bad energy deal to a very good energy deal and you have less delinquency. Yes. Better occupancy people more apt to take a renewal increase and you can, you can rent that out more easily because people that prospective tenants that are walking around fuel that same thing too. So that's a huge part of what we do. We don't like to focus the value add just on the what the aesthetic of the property to, it's how you manage it and tenants that you have in there as well. A huge part of it.   James: So, you guys operators, which is the definition. What I mean is very active asset management because you know the details of what's happening on the side by side. Right. So, is that a correct assumption? Right? So.   Ben Suttles: Absolutely.   Feras Moussa: Yes, absolutely.   James: How do you guys manage this third-party property management companies?   Feras Moussa: Man, that's, that's part of the secret sauce. But I mean, it's really is nothing to it. There's nothing secret about it. So, we have an asset manager now that we've brought in who very experienced, 20 plus years if families a property, he manages family really. And so that's starting to help, but we plan to keep a pulse in general on what's going on in every deal. And so, for us, it's really about putting systems in place with each of your property managers, right? And having accountability. Right? And so, we have not brought in property management in house, but we've been successful with managing our property managers. Right? Yes. And it's a partnership, right? It's not like they're your employee. You really need to get on the level of like where they understand like, hey, we're partnering, we're growing together. Right? And so, they've seen that, and you know, yes. Identify the good property managers from the batch. So, there's a whole betting cycle. I don't want to get too far into, but really, we have the weekly calls, we have the weekly reports come in at a certain time. We have certain expectations that within a few days we expect them to follow up with hearing all the action items and did these all get done? Yes or no? Why not? Right? And how do we, I can keep them accountable, so.   Ben Suttles: Yes, it's all about obviously keep it to an agenda, keep into the processes that we put in place to templates and checklists. And we're very upfront when we get into a partnership with these property management companies that this is what we expect, that this is when we expect it. Right. And then we, like we said, we keep them accountable through--   Feras Moussa: And this is the format that we expect, that these are the numbers that we need and sent out.   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Just to help us track everything the way we want. And then you learn from it. Right. We're not perfect. It's not, it's an iterative process, right. Anytime we identify something that we can improve from one property manager, we applied to the portfolio. The nice thing is really is that having different property managers, we see the strengths and weaknesses of each property manager and you figure out how do we make them all better and so what things can we do across the board to make everything better?   Ben Suttles: Yes.   James: So, can you name like three things that you guys always look out for in the property management performance? When you realize that someone of these three things is not going well, things are not going right.   Feras Moussa: Oh Man. I would say renewals is the lowest hanging fruit. Look and understand what's going on in renewals and how important it is because early renewals are indicative of a lot of other things. Are they following up with tenants for the renewal? Right. Did they really? That's just a-- that's the number that you can kind of look at and realize that there must be other problems going on. I would say that's my answer. I don't know about you, Ben.   Ben Suttles: No, I think, yes, I think you're right, man. Totally. Yes. I think my biggest, my biggest hanging out in delinquency because it's like that's the properties money. Like you know, go out there, how are you going to collect the rent that is owed? And so, when you start seeing that slipping and we're increasing, that's my big red flag that hey, there's something going on here, right? As our management on site, not, not doing their job, or are we getting bad tenants in there that aren't capable of paying the rent that we're asking of them may be what's the, there's a, there's usually a bigger problem going on, but yes, I mean all of these, these metrics we expect on our Monday morning report. And so, we're looking at each of these things weekly and we're also having follow-up calls throughout the week to either our asset management or asset manager or us or having calls with the property manager to track these things. So, it's not like a weekly thing. And that we don't have any kind of insight into what's happening for the rest of the week. If there's a challenge, we're having a follow-up call that week about it as well.   James: Okay. So, do you convert like renewal to percentage and look at, give that as a goal, that what you guys delinquency at two percentage and give that as a goal?   Feras Moussa: It's a balancing act depending on how hard you're pushing. Right? So, it's not like you can just say, hey, we expect 50% renewals across the board. I think it's really, it's deal specific and I mean we're looking at renewals, we're looking at least as we're looking at delinquency, right? We're looking at how much traffic came in versus how much leases got closed and then going in and really both on leases, we didn't close. What's the story? What's the story? What's the story? Sometimes there are cases where you, maybe you, no, you can go save that, that person. Similarly, on the delinquency, we go through what's this person's story? Are they going to pay? Cause really in Atlanta, our delinquency is higher than it isn't and Texas, right? It's just by nature of the market. And so, you, you kind of need to be more flexible in one market versus the other. And so really go through and understand what's the story behind me. Just like whenever we, you asked me earlier about the properties, how we analyse it, you're looking for that story. And so, we talked through each one of these and figure out what makes sense to kind of do moving forward. Because to us, it is very different between different properties.   Ben Suttles: Yes, and I, I would say targeted for delinquency, right? It's always zero. And do you know what I mean? So, the property management companies will say, oh yes, we got zero across our whole portfolio, I'm like, yes right. Do you know what I mean? Not, not the workforce housing stuff. So, you got to be realistic. But I would say your target, there's probably one to 2%, you know, on a stabilized property if you're dealing in the workforce housing space that we are and so that's usually the metric that we're pushing towards. But on the renewal side too. One thing I want to point out, right? When you're doing a heavy value add and you've got a lot of interior budget to kind of burn through and you have units that you need to update too, right? You're not going to be chasing after those folks as aggressively as you would on a stabilized property because maybe you don't have a lot of down units are a lot of vacancies and you need to free up, you know, units actually update them, right? So, you're not going to be as aggressive in renewing those folks. So, we've been able to connect like Feras says, right? I mean, you don't want to, you're not going to burn that bridge completely. So, you're constantly looking at occupancy, versus how much, how many units are we supposed to be turning a month in order to hit that target of, 60, 70, 80 units a year. Right. Because people have, people aren't moving out. What are we going to do? We can't sit on the money and there's usually a finite amount of time that we can, we can actually use that cash. So.   Feras Moussa: To expand on Ben's point too. It's almost like, we have a deal where we almost went the opposite. We don't want renewal. And what I mean by that is that one of our deals in Atlanta, we've pushed rents an insane amount on this deal. Like we're probably up 30% honestly, you know, 30 40% and we still have 98% occupants are choke when they're property managers at one day on the call, it felt to 97 and a half. And then, we called her out on it like, Oh, you're at 97 and a half, you're not a 98% anymore. And she's like, no, no, I just had someone who fucking renewed. She's back at 98, but in that deal, we have interior budgets that we need to go spend. We were literally just sitting on the side-lines. Right. Trying to, so you were kind of that balancing act is because we knew what was below market. Right. And figure out, where can we land on to where we have some people not renewing and we can go in and actually spend the money to even get, you know, that better push.   James: Yes. I think you need to look for where is the base rank, where's the base rank before you really go and spend all that rehab money. Otherwise, you can't be spending, spending, spending.   Ben Suttles: Exactly.   James: You don't know where's your base. Where is your starting point? Right. So, yes, I've had properties where we didn't even spend, we have the money yet, but we already bumped up just because people like it just because we are just a better operator than the previous guy. Right. So, --   Ben Suttles: And you'll get that. Right. Do you know what I mean? You'll just, you're amazed that how much they'll take it on renewal too. And that's great. You know, I mean, I just think it's a balancing act sometimes, but yeah, you have that, you have to kind of see where the market is and, and obviously be strategic with those dollars as well.   James: Yes, correct. Correct. That's right. So, can you give us some advice on how do you choose third-party property management? Because you guys are going in multiple markets, right? How would you give them expectations? Because a lot of, I'm sure a lot of property management company don't like, active asset managers. I couldn't control, [inaudible 59:57] I guess.   Ben Suttles: Well, hey now. [crosstalk 01:00:01].   Feras Moussa: Ben. I think, yes, I think.   James: [inaudible 01:00:04].   Feras Moussa: Well I will say though all of our property managers literally, you ask them, they say we're one of their favourites.   James: Oh okay.   Feras Moussa: So, let's not because we're active or inactive. [crosstalk 01:00:15]. Well, it's, we're doing maybe some of it, but it's more so that we're realistic. Right. I think what I was surprised to hear from them as a lot of people will just sell their property may, here's your budget, here's what you have to go, you know, accomplish. And sometimes it's not realistic. Right. I said before any of your deals because we've already worked on a budget with a property manager, we have an agreement on what that looks like, what the plan is, and we're not just picking numbers out of a hat just to make our deal work. Right. And really kind of do it the other way around. And then, yes, whenever issues come up, we're both, I mean, I hope people on the audience, I get this impression. Ben and I are pretty level headed, pretty easy to work with. And so, they understand things happen. And so, the property management companies, at least they enjoy because we're easy to get a hold of. We understand what's going on the deal. And we're realistic. And so, because I've asked them and pretty much all of them have said that we're one of, we're one of their favourites. Right. And so, --   James: Okay.   Feras Moussa: Now, that said, maybe to answer your question, Ben, do you want to answer? Do you want me to answer?   Ben Suttles: I mean, I, I think, I mean, you've got to be stern, but at the same time, you can have a friendly relationship with them at the same time. Right. But I think it's all about setting the right expectations and just betting them in general. I think it's, it's all you usually start off with referrals. Right?   James: Okay.   Ben Suttles: But I think some of the big things are as, go take a look at some of their properties too. Go secret shop those deals, so you're going to say, okay, hey you, you're a good referral on whatever market. Right. Give me three of the assets that you, and then you fly out there and you go shopping. What does the property look like? Is it clean? Is the management, is the leasing agent and the manager, are they friendly, are they knowledgeable of the property? Are they good or are they leasing it properly? All of these things go back to the property management side and, and as long as that's, that's kind of coalesces with what you've heard about them and everything. That is good. Obviously, the fee has to be online and those roles have, the references have to be there. But I think the biggest, the biggest asset test for us is, vetting the deals that they currently have, and do we like what we see, and they call them out, right? I mean, if they don't, if there's a deficiency saying, hey we went to Xyz property and there's trash on the ground, what's the deal with that and then how do they respond to that? Because that's going to be, -- there are always challenges, but it’s how you respond to those challenges is what I'm looking for on the property management side.   James: Yeah.   Feras Moussa: And then a couple of things too, just to add, I mean it's about what's kind of, what's the impression and feeling you're getting from them? Right. And, and working on a budget with a property management company is actually a great exercise to understand how they look at things and how are they going to meet what you're looking for. And I mean that in multiple, always, right? A, are they, -- is their budget realistic? Right. And B, is there pushback? I mean we actually like when they push back, right? If we say, well we think we can run payroll at x amount and they're like, well no, payroll is going to be this amount. Here are the 10 properties we have nearby to prove it. Right? That's good. Versus we've had property managers that are essential yes people, right? That'll say yes to everything and that's not at all what you want because we need something realistic. We're not trying to, we have millions of dollars at stake, we have other people's money. We're not here to just take a gamble. So, looking at that and kind of what we've found success in is really the people that are in that five to 15,000-unit range, right? The 40,000 guys in too much, they don't care about you. The guys that are smaller, there's just a lot of them. You know this first-hand. There's a lot of back offices that need to happen for a successful property management company. Right. And so, we found that sweet spot seems to be that five to 15 and then to where there our portfolio is enough volume for them, right? That we kind of get that professional preferential treatment where needed and at the same time, right, they're developed enough to be able to, kind of take on and succeed with it.   James: Got It. Got It. Very interesting, very interesting. So, let me ask some question about more the personal side, right? So maybe each one of you can add in on your own site. So, what's, what do you think is the top three things that are the secret sauce, for the success that you guys have been having in terms of closing deals?   Ben Suttles: All right. Go for it man.   Feras Moussa: Partnerships and relationships, right? Most important, first and foremost, right? Being willing to partner with brokers, property managers, other partners, partners, right? On the GP. People that can help us, would the deal, right? Whether it's helping with construction, hel

Title: Live in Dallas, Invest in Lubbock and When to fire your Property management Company with Joseph Gozlan James: Hi Audience. Welcome to Achieve Wealth Podcast where we talk about value-add commercial real estate. Today I have Joseph Gozlan from Dallas, Texas. Joseph run's the record business group, which is a brokerage firm and also a sponsor of 500 units in Lubbock. And now let's welcome Joseph; and why not just have you tell about yourself?   Joseph: Awesome. Thank you. James. It's an honor to be on your podcast, I love everything you do. We're in the same mastermind, so it's an honor to be here.   James: Sure, absolutely. So, yeah, I mean, we like to talk details, right? There's no fluff here and there's no marketing as well. So let's go deep down into details about how you run your operation between being a broker, at the same time being a sponsor where you syndicate deal. So can you tell me how you split your roles there?   Joseph: Yeah, so it's actually very complimentary and it brings value to everybody in the transactions. So when we work with our acquisition groups, we have access to the tools that most sponsors don't have. We have access to Yardi matrix that gives us information about properties, comps, sales, rents and loans that are on the property that really give us access to information that is beyond what most sponsors have. And if a sponsor wants to get comps on the area, he either depends on whatever the broker provides him or they have to go out and shop those properties themselves.  So we have all that advantage of talking to other people in the industry, talking to other workers and really understanding the market better than most out there. So that's really the value that we can bring to our investors. On the other hand, we also bring a lot of value to our customers because unlike working with a 25-year-old kid for Marcus and Millichap or CVRE, we actually know what we're doing, we actually own those properties. We operate the properties so we can really get our clients through everything they need help with so if they need us to extend our lenders connections or insurance agents or so on, we can help that. We can help them calm down when Fanny Mae drives them crazy and tell them that's normal, that's just how Fannie Mae works. And that's not to say that there are no veteran agents at Marcus and Millichap or CVRE that don't know what they're doing, they definitely have some superior people over there that are more capable than most agents there.  But for the most part, if you're a new sponsor, you'll be working with the lower level agents in the agencies there. For sellers, what we can help with is because we have the operations experience, we can come in and take a look at the financials, take a look at the operations and offer tweaks here and there to their operations to help them really maximize their NOI, which as you know, maximizes the property value, the price we can sell. And I can give examples if you want.   James: Sure, sure. I mean, before we go there, I want to touch on one thing because you can see the seller's mind right? I mean, I've not sold one property yet so, I don't know how the mindset is going to be, but you work with a lot of sellers, right? So tell me why sellers sell?   Joseph: Oh, there's a lot of reasons. All the way from syndication groups that have completed the renovation plan, extracted the value that they were planning to and they're ready to sell just like they promised their investors two, three years later. And on the very far end of that spectrum, you have the older ownership that, and I see that and I cringe a little bit every time, but their kids want nothing to do with apartments. And that is just sad to see a 70 80-year-old person that worked so hard all his life to build a portfolio and now instead of being happy to build that generational wealth and to hand it over to the kids, they want nothing of it so they're forced to sell. So it's everywhere in between, but usually it's either a completion of a pre-planned execution plan or the kids don't want it. I got to get rid of it. Sometimes we come across distressed owners that went into something that was just not ready for and they want out. That happens too.   James: Okay. I mean, we had like nine years of expansion run right now, right? So the dynamic of buyers and sellers has changed. So, people who bought it in 2010, they have made a lot of money up to now, I mean, in terms of equity, they are brought up a lot of equity and they would have sold it somewhere 2013 or 2015. But there's a lot of people who are jumping in right now late in the game, as a buyer. And what do you think, they need to be watching here right now because we had one of the longest expansion markets right now.   Joseph: Yeah. So here's the thing, everybody that bought in 2010 and sold in 2015 regret it now because people that were in 2015 are selling now in 2019 and they still made a lot more money. So nobody has a crystal ball, we don't know where it's going. We don't know if it's going to end in six months so it's going to take another six years until we see a difference. Personally, I believe we are about 18 to 24 months away from seeing quite a few properties go on a distress sale but I don't think it has anything to do the way the market is going to behave. So we kind of reach to a place where the market is no longer steeping up and just a crazy incline, we're getting into a place where it's a plateau or maybe a little bit of a downturn in some of the markets in the country, but for the most part it just plateaus or creeping up a little bit in other markets.  But that's not going to be enough if people made a mistake buying. So I always say about multifamily, you make your money when you buy, but you lose your money on operations and who better than you know how critical operation efficiency is, right? Then I see a lot of sponsors out there that are not very good operators and I think that is going to cost them the property in the long run if they don't pay attention to the details and they don't really follow everything that happens on the property.    James: Got It. So I talk a lot about operators in my book, Passive Investing in Commercial Real Estate because I think they are the backbone of the success of a deal. Can you define an operator?   Joseph: Yes. Anybody that is involved in the day to day of the properties. If that person is not talking to the property managers, is not talking to the supervisor, is not talking to the owners of the property management or the VPs that are assigned to these accounts and just hands over the keys and forget about it, it's not gonna work. Because at the end of the day, and this is kind of like a little bit of a joke in this business where we buy 5 10 $20 million properties but we hand over the keys to people that have 50 $60,000 pay grade and they are phenomenal people at what they do but they still don't have the capacity or the business knowledge to make decisions for $20 million properties. So each level in the chain has their own decision rights and obviously, I don't make a decision of who is going to fix the faucet in J7 or is it more critical to do that faucet versus the plumbing in K9? This is a decision that happens on the property level. There are decision levels with the regional supervisor and then there are decision levels at the property management level company, the corporate office and there are certain decisions that we keep to ourselves like brand, right? If it has our name on it, it better run through us. It doesn't matter if it's a website or a flyer or advertising somewhere, we're going to make sure we control our brand so this is a decision that stays within our control. We also work with partnerships. We don't just come from all the way up top and we drop it down heel to the people on the property. We listened to our property managers, we get ideas from them, we work together to encourage them to be more than just order takers.   James: Got it. Yeah. Some asset manager, they want to be a sponsor, but actually, they tried to do more passive investor, where they give the keys to the third party property management and they hope that things will run well. I mean, market could have helped a lot of people in the past nine years, because market is booming even though you make mistakes, even though you did not do well as an operator or you have no clue of a multifamily operation, you would have still made like 100%, I don't know how many percent, but he could have made at least a minimum 50% right? If you bought it in 2015 and sell now a minimum of 50%  but I think that's a market, right? As an operator, you would have increased the value a lot more if you're a really good operator. So can you define why or can you let us know why did you go to Lubbock when you're living in Dallas, which is one of the hottest markets in the country?   Joseph: Well, we got priced out of the market, honestly. There's a lot of education groups that that push bids up. There is a lot of foreign money that came in. You've got to look at it from this perspective; everybody has their own strategy. Everybody has their own set of investors and those investors have their own expectations for returns. So, I'll give a few examples, right? The Japanese for investors, there's a tax law back home that if they buy anything in the states that is over 20 something years old, they get to accelerate depreciation and write it off in about three, four years. They don't need to make money, it's a write off for them. Their strategy is a tax write off so they can out beat us at any given point. If your strategy is working with foreign investors, we both know another syndicator that works with foreign German investors and he says that they're thrilled to get 5% returns. If that's the money he needs to pay his investors, if that's the returns he's got to achieve, he can overpay what we can afford because our investors expect more. So that's what I'm saying is you got to look at it. It's not just foreign investors, it's also family offices, it's also institutional money that came in and all these groups are looking for core markets. Dallas, Austin, Houston, LA in New York, Miami and Atlanta, Georgia. That's the kind of markets that they know. So we just got out priced from the market so we went out and went to the secondary markets in Texas.   James: Yeah. I think it's strange. Sometimes we see a deal is expensive but it could be just, it's expensive for you. Your investor base thinks that your returns are too low but there could be another investor base who is okay with that deal and they may get a benefit from other factors like tax benefits, which is for them is a great deal at this market. So yeah, there's no expensive deals, it's just who's your investment base, I guess. If you have Japanese as the investor base and maybe we can buy, the priciest deal in town and still make everybody happy. Joseph: I've seen them buy [12:18unintelligible] so yeah, you're absolutely right. If you're a 10 31 money and you're backed against the wall with the clock running down against you, you're looking at it and say, okay, all of that loss of potential taxes is my income now because I'm going to be able to recover that instead of paying that. So there's a lot of reasoning behind people's strategy and I learned not to judge somebody for [quote-unquote] over-paying without knowing what the background and where the funds are and what's the alternative they had.   James: Got It. Yeah. I think the biggest problem we see is over-beating when people over-beat on a deal, that's where you're paying the highest price whether you know or not, you may have won the deal, but you actually lost the war.   Joseph: Well, and that's where the smaller boutique shops like ours are a little bit better to work with as a sponsor because if you go to bid on a Marcus and Millichap deal or CVRE deal or JLLHFF, any one of the big brokers, they have hundreds of thousands of people in their distribution lists so you will be bidding against a lot of people.  Small brokers like us, we don't have a database that large; I wish I had, but we don't. So then the circulation of the properties that we have on our marketing is much smaller than the ones that the Marcus and Millichap guys have. And as part of that, we've learned to build a network of smaller brokers that we call broker with. So when you approach someone like me and there are quite a few small firms out there that are doing the same thing, not only that you get access to my less circulated listings, but I can also get you access to somebody else' less circulated listings that you wouldn't have been able to access because you don't know that small broker. James: Yeah. So let me ask you, I mean, you are a broker and we go to your role as an investor because it's interesting to talk to a broker, I've not talked to a broker on this podcast yet. So how does broker market deals in this hot market? Obviously, you're going to get a deal, we should think is a good deal; there are two types of deals, one is a deal that you think a lot of people will want to jump on it and there's another deal which you think is a bit pricey that are sellers testing the water right now, right? They want to check out how much they can get in terms of price. So let's say the first scenario where they are, it's a good deal and how would you go about marketing that deal?    Joseph: Yeah. So we try not to work with sellers that are completely delusional. If the property is worth $2 million and they're asking for 4, my chances of getting them a buyer is zero. I can't afford to spend all that time on a property I know I can't sell. So we have honest conversations with our sellers about what's realistic and what's optimistic and what's unreasonable. So we'll work with them on this and we will not take owners that are just unreasonable so that's just to address the types that you mentioned.  The way we get our listings out is when we get a listing, we first make a few phone calls and those few phone calls are to the buyers that have closed a deal with us, it's for the buyers that we know are capable of closing, the buyers that are, in our opinion, ready to pull the trigger and the most qualified buyers. And if we can get that property sold within those few phone calls, then that's great. If not, then we'll expand the phone call circle and then we'll send an email to a smaller group of investor, then a bigger email to a larger group of our investors and it's basically like a growing ripple in a lake. When you throw that stone first, there's a small circle, then there is a larger and larger all the way up until if we have no choice, we'll get it all the way out to those websites out there that are doing listings for apartments and so on. So we'll start small and we'll grow as we need.    James: Okay. Yeah, that's my theory in terms of off-market because usually, the brokers will try to sell within the people that they know because it's a multi-million dollar deal and brokers have the fiduciary responsibility to sell it as soon as possible to the seller, to the right qualified buyer.   Joseph: It depends on the seller. If you go to one of the big brokerages out there, then you are willingly putting the property into the blender. They will have 30 40 tours and they will have a lot of people interested and there is going to be a call for offers in maybe two of those and then there's going to be a best and final round so it'll take about four to six months of just a lot of disruption to the property. At the end of it, you might get a contract that will go through, you might fall for the first one and go to the second one, but eventually, they'll get it sold and they're probably going to get a top possible dollar for that property but in that time, that property went through the blender.  The way we operate and what we offer our sellers is a quiet, smoother transaction without disrupting the property with qualified buyer. Part of what we do, our responsibility to the seller is to qualify the buyer. And if it's not a qualified buyer, we're not going to get him on the property, we're not going to disrupt the property and we're not going to let him lock in on the contract.   James: Yeah, I mean, just to give a story, I had a guy who was a Newbie called me like two days ago. He said, "James, I found this 20 something plus unit deal and I'm evaluating with the broker." And I asked him, my first question is, "Why they need to sell to you?" And he cannot answer that question. So if they're now coming to you who are a Newbie, that means they cannot really sell it to a lot of experienced buyers. I mean 20 something units are the same across a hundred, 200 units; there are so many of qualified buyers out there where the brokers will have relationships with, where they want to sell to the qualified people rather than just go and give it to the Newbie.   Joseph: 10 to 20 unit is kind of like the first property so we're going to have to work with newbies anyway.    James: Yeah, that could be the reason.   Joseph:  But it's just a matter of is it a qualifying Newbie or is it a non-qualified Newbie. The question is that the broker should have probably asked him is where is the financing coming over from? Do you have a proof of funds and did you talk to the bank? This is a full recourse loan itself. There are ways for us to qualify even Newbies.   James: Okay. Okay. Got It. So let's go to your role as a sponsor. So let's go back to the market itself, why do you like Lubbock?   Joseph: Yeah. So Lubbock is, well, no longer, but it used to be a well-kept secret of a great economy market, it's in the middle of the panhandles, it's called the hub city, that's the nickname. And that's because it's one of the most important cities in over a hundred-mile radius. And it has Texas Tech University, it's the biggest engineering school in Texas, and they have over 37,000 students over there. And while we don't do student housing, there's a lot of student housing in the city, but we don't do student housing but the math is simple. For every four or five students the university adds, there's a new job in town. So today, Texas Tech supports over 13,000 jobs, on its own bring one point $2 billion to the city and just retail shopping alone, their students are doing more than $300 million a year.  So add that to a few other factors; economic factors in town that drive a really good economy, a lot of jobs, the unemployment rate in Lubbock is anywhere between 2.5 and 3.2. That's what I've been seeing in the last year and a half out there, which has a downside for a sponsor but we can talk about it later, but for the most part, having such a low unemployment rate in so much job opportunities really gives you more comfort in the B&C class environment because in the B and C class environment, if those tenants lose their job, they don't have a lot of financial depth. If they lose the job and they can't find a job within a week or two, they won't have money to pay the rent. So that's why picking a market that has strong jobs, strong economics was super critical for us.   James: So what is the downside? I don't get that.   Joseph: Oh, the downside is finding good employees.   James:  Oh, got it. Because everybody's being employed.   Joseph:  Because they always have options and they always move and we lost so many maintenance people just because they don't want to work hard. They can easily find a job where they don't have to work so hard so that's just has been a constant struggle out there. But that's just part of the pros and cons of every place.   James: So did you end up buying a deal in Lubbock because you got your first deal there or did you look in a few cities and you chose it or how was it?    Joseph: That's a good question. It's a combination of both. So, it wasn't our first deal, but it was our first big one and it just came through a relationship that we had with the property manager and a broker and we had a chance to take a deal off completely off-market and go for it.    James: Okay. Okay. So once you got a deal, you look at the market, then you think it's a really great market and you continue doing deals in the same market.   Joseph: Yeah, we operate a little bit different today, but that's just how we got to Lubbock back then. Today we are I analyzing markets with a big set of criteria that we're looking for and right now specifically because we try to get out of the way of our brokerage customers, we're looking at a few out of state markets.   James: Okay. Got It. Got It. So when you look at a deal, I mean, can you describe the type of things that you look forward to that describe to you that that is a good deal? Can you describe what are the things you look for in a deal that you would say, okay, I want to do this deal?   Joseph: Yeah. So, the market is the most important thing, it's that simple.  Jobs,  jobs economy, what do they do for a living, is that a one employer town kind of a situation, what's the risk with the market, what the market did back in 2010 when unemployment was high everywhere in the country, that's the things that we first take care of. I'm obviously making sure if we're talking about out of state, we'll always only go to landlord friendly states, that's another very important criteria for us.  But when you look at the actual deal, the actual property, we're looking for value add opportunities. Everything we've done was a heavy lift in value add and it's not easy and it's a lot of work, but it's the only way to really make money. So if I buy a stabilized property, I'm going to have to go find those German investors that are happy with 5% returns. So really, looking for the right value add opportunity when we know we can come in and make a difference and increased the rent and reduce expenses and basically a bump on the NOI that's what we're looking for.   James: Okay. So apart from increasing the rent and reducing expenses, is there any other value add that you think that you find it unique and you think that that's something that can share with the audience?   Joseph: Yeah, so there's a lot of strategies out there when you can leverage to either increase income or reduce expenses, but adding amenities is a good attraction that can help you increase rent. So if you have an on-site gym versus the property that doesn't have an on-site gym, people would be willing to pay a little bit more. A pool is a very big attraction in the C class environment. So we have one property that had a pool, years ago, way before we bought it, and they cemented it in so right now there's just an ugly area that has a fallen apart shed with a cemented pool. So what we're going to do is we're going to convert it to an outdoor kitchen with some picnic tables and shade, just to create a place where the residents can go and have an activity and have fun outdoors. So stuff like that really helps, obviously in-unit amenities is super critical. Upgrading the appliances, resurfacing the counters, replacing old carpets with vinyl planks, that's the kind of thing that people are willing to pay more for.   James: So what, what do you think, let's say, for example, increasing the rent. So let's say you had a million dollar budget to increase rent, but somehow after you buy it, you realize that you only have 500,000 so your budget has significantly reduced. So what's the most important value add that you would do?    Joseph: That's a great question, are we talking interior only?   James: Which one you think is the biggest bang for the buck? You have a reduced budget right now.   Joseph: Well, here's the reality of things, it really depends on the property. If the property looks like crap from the outside, it doesn't matter how nice you make the units look, nobody wants to live on a property that has no exterior light, a green pool and a laundry room that doesn't work. And if the property looks fine outside, I would put the money inside the units because the prettier the unit, the more they're willing to pay. So it depends on the property and what we have to do. Certain properties, if you gate them, it'll be great. Certain properties if you can fence the backyards and create small backyards for the first level unit, it can significantly increase your cost. In-unit washer/dryer connections, that is a big difference maker that people are willing to pay more for in our environment so if I can generate those, then maybe I'll do that.   James: Okay. So let's talk about fencing versus non-fencing property because that's something new for me. So can you elaborate a bit more? Which property makes sense to fence and which one doesn't make sense to fence?   Joseph: First, you got to have the fee the actual space to do that. So if they have sliding doors on the back and it just goes out to the street or just goes out to the green area, then you have the opportunity to just put two panels of fence and either close it or put it like the rod iron and now you created a small backyard for them. People love the opportunity of a private backyard. And I know that because we have two properties that are literally across the street from each other, one of them has larger layouts, the other one has smaller layouts but have fenced backyards and Patios and we constantly have to take people across the street based on the preferences. And you can clearly see that some people prefer to have fenced backyard over larger layouts, even at the same price point. And then some people prefer the larger layout so there's definitely a preference over there to some people.   James: So your fenced backyard, is that a single story unit or is there like a double story but you only fence the ground floor?    Joseph: Those mostly are a single story or townhomes.   James: Townhomes, yeah, I have a property, which is a townhome where it does very well with the backyard, people love the backyard.   Joseph: Yeah. We also have a property that is a two-story building. The first story has a fenced little patio, it's not a backyard, it's not big, but it's a fenced little patio. And then the second floor has a balcony right on top of it. So it obviously works for both the first floor and the second floor.   James: Okay. Okay. So you said this ground floor you put in a fenced backyard but the second floor's balcony, but don't the second-floor people can see the ground floor backyard?   Joseph: No, like I said to call it a back yard is a stretch, it's a small fenced patio.    James: Okay. Got It, got it, got it.    Joseph: It's about the size of the balcony from up top.   James: Oh, okay, maybe that's a good idea. Yeah, I have a deal right now, which we are trying to put a fenced backyard, but it's always like someone on the top will be looking at, so I'm just trying to figure that out and see where they are.   Joseph: You can go to linksupapts.com and see pictures of our property, you'll see what I'm talking about.   James: Ah, cool. Cool. And what about the inside? What do you think is the most valuable remodeling that you can do if you have a very strained budget? What do you think you have the biggest bang for the buck on the inside? Joseph: Okay. Painting floors.   James: Painting floors. Okay.  So that's what you would do, I guess, just to make it look nice inside and the flooring is more for turnover reduction, right?    Joseph: Yeah. People don't need a lot on the inside but seeing the vinyl planks that have, that wood-looking style and a fresh coat of paint on the walls, make a complete big difference versus the old run down carpet or even a new carpet. There's big research I read that talks about the first thing people are looking for, are pet-friendly communities. So obviously hard floors are a lot better with pets then carpets. If you look at any of our property websites, you'll see that the first list in the community amenity is pet-friendly and by the way, if you are not pet-friendly, that is the first thing I'm going to do to increase income.   James: Got It, got it. So you think thinking in terms of miscellaneous income, that's one of the easy value addition, right?   Joseph: Absolutely. Whether it's the pet deposit fee or is it pet rent or whatever you structure it at or just the fact that you allow pets is going to help you with occupancy so pets is definitely an easy one.   James: Got it, got it. So let's say you buy a deal now, it's a value add deal so what would be your first 30-day plan, 60 Day plan and 90-day plan or maybe one year plan on achieving your business plan?   Joseph: Yeah, so the 30-day plan is just to find our way around the property. Every property we picked up in the first 30 days, it's just a lot of dust and you've got to let the dust settle. There's going to be people that have not paid to the previous owner and you're going to have to evict them because they're not paying, period. You will have people that are going to just walk away because in their head it's new management so they're going to increase the rents tomorrow, even though we have contracts, we can't do that. There will be people that are going to try it, ah, new management, let's try not to pay and see what happens, right? So you'll have all that going on in the first 30 days. You've got to figure out who is the maintenance crew, what are they doing, take control over the employees what are they doing. Did you inherit the employees from the previous owner or not? Did some of them got up and moved with the previous ownership, that happens too. So first 30 days is just wrapping our heads around the property and trying to figure out what is where and who does what. After that, we better have our contractors out there and then we'll get started working. We have all that lined up during due diligence. We get bids during due diligence, we set starting work during due diligence and if there are any critical items then there'll be there day one. So our King David property, when we bought it, it was pitch black. There was not a single light on after hours and we had the electricians out there working on the lights the day we took the keys, we didn't wait 30 days or 60 days or anything else. The day we took the keys over, that's when that person was over there.   James: Yeah. The lighting at night it's just super critical. We focus a lot on lighting at night, make sure it's really, really bright. You know, it hinders a lot of crime, it just gives a lot more confidence to the current residents, they know there's a change coming, right? Because it's super easy to do that. Right? We just get the electrician to go and fix all the lights.   Joseph: Yeah. And then we have contractors come out to give us bids and they ask me questions like, well, do you want 3000 lumens or 5,000 lumens? It's like, guys, I don't care. Here's the definition; when you're done, I want it to look like a prison.   James: Fort Knox.    Joseph: If I don't get complaints from some of the residents that it's too bright, then you didn't do your job, that's our definition. So some of my contractors laugh and say, yeah, I know, prison.   James: So, going back to like one year,  within one year, your contractors is done and all that but when do you think you have to step in and what's the trigger point for you that you say, okay, we are not going in the right direction? What are the clues that you look for in the operation that, hey, I thought this is going this direction but we are not in that direction and what would you do in that case?   Joseph: Yeah, so I don't know how many of your properties were exactly on plan.   James: Of course, it's all 100% wrong.    Joseph: Life is what happens when you're busy making plans, right? So it's not about checkpoints, I'm going to check in at 30 days, check in at night, just checking out the year, that's not going to work. You've got to be constantly involved and you constantly have to adapt to whatever life throws at you and turn around. We had one property that when we bought it, it had three-year-old boilers in, so they were practically new that a year later, went up, $25,000 expense. That comes at you out of the blue, you're going to have to adapt, you're gonna have to work with that and figure it out.  The contractor tells you he'll be done by April and it's June and he's barely half-way through, you gotta roll with the punches, that's what it is. Just closer control, monitoring the numbers, working as a partner with the property management team, onsite and corporate, that's the critical things and you've got to work with it. If you made it in a year, that's great. If it takes a year and a half, takes two and a half, takes three, it takes three.   James: But what numbers would you be looking at in the P&L that you are thinking whether you're going the right direction or you're going in the wrong direction? Joseph: Yeah, so every month we take the actual numbers and we put them right next to our projections. So it's kind of like a constant check of where we are compared to the plant and did we spend the capitals that we were supposed to or not? Did we get the units upgraded or not? Did we make time or not? Do we see the increase in rente that we expected or is it below or you did we exceed that? We also have constant market surveys; just because I projected going from, I don't know, 800 to $900, it's great, but if the market went to $700, my projections are going to go flying out the window because that's what the market is. And the other way around, if I projected 900 and the market went to a thousand, I'm not going to stay at 900, I'm going to go to 1000. So, it's like a living organism, right? You got to adapt, you've got to follow, feel the polls, understand where the market is going, where your property's going, where you are and that's really what you got to focus on; it's everything, not just one. James: I think that's the job often operator, where you are looking on a day to day, month to month detail planning in terms of numbers and where you're going, whether you're going towards your business plan goals or you're going to divert from there. That's an important thing. That's what I see as an operator because if you look at nowadays, the GP ship I call it the general partnership, the ship. It's too many people when any investors come and invest in any deals but there'll be like one guy or maybe maximum two guys who are the operators. Joseph: Sometimes there is none. James: And probably you're right. Yeah. But I think if you look for the backbone of the deal, I mean, it may not be the guy who was raising money from you, it may be someone else who's going to be the operator and as I told in my book, just make sure that you look for who's behind the deal, who's the operator, who is the backbone of the deal, that person is the key person in that, going to make the deal whether it's successful or not.   Joseph: Yeah, and you really got to look at it from the perspective of everybody is focusing on getting the deal closed, but getting the deal close is just a little sprint run;  that sprint finish line is the starting line of a marathon and if that was a relay race, it doesn't matter what happened to the sprinter if he comes in two seconds behind or five seconds behind, because that marathon is going to take 24 hours and a lot can happen in that 24 hours. So the guy that runs the property that does the operation for three, five, seven, 10 years, the projection that the whole period is, it's a lot more critical than the 60 days that it took to put the deal together, raise the equity and secure the financing.   James: Yeah. Yeah, that's what has been happening. It's not bad, but I think as passive investors, they just need to know who is the person behind the whole deal. So coming back to some of your personal experience, I know you don't have your own property management company right now. You are using a third-party property management company and I know you did look at setting up your own property management company to take control and all that but can you describe what are the pros and cons that you see on both paradigm and why did you choose the current paradigm or are you planning to change in the future?   Joseph: Yeah, so for us, we had the transition property management last year and it wasn't fun; It was very painful, actually. So I was at the point where I said, okay, let's evaluate it, maybe I should just take on myself. And my conclusion, my personal conclusion, everybody's going to be different, was that, at this point, property management is its own business and you've got to operate it as a business. You've got to build the infrastructure of a company. So I knew that if I'm going to have to build my own property management company, I'm going to have to put aside my acquisition business and my brokerage business and put them away for about a year until I set up all the infrastructure and all the other things. So, for that purpose, I decided to just move on and get another third-party property management.  The advantages you get with third-party property management is you get decades worth of experience combined. If I would have opened my own property management, I would probably hire a regional supervisor and that person would probably have 10, 20 years of experience but when you go to a property management company, you have the owners, you have multiple regional supervisors, you have the back office people, and that's decades, if not centuries of combined experience that you're not going to get doing your own thing. So for us, the brain damage was just not worth it and not to pause to the other two businesses that we were running, maybe in the future, it will make sense. We'll reevaluate then, but at this point, we're not gonna do any of that. James: Okay. So yeah, that's important. I mean, it's a lot of work to set up property management and running it and whether you want to do it or not, it's your personal preference and all that. But I'm more interested in how did you get the signal? Hold on.  So my question to you is you change the property management but then halfway through one of your deal, in your property in Lubbock, what was the signal that you look for that triggered you that something's not doing right and I need to make this change now. I mean, how long did you wait to pull the trigger to change the property management? How did you change it because it's hard for a lot of asset manager to make that call, it's hard? Joseph: Yeah. It wasn't an easy decision to make because you have this relationship that you've built with the team in the property management, but there was just, let's take a step back. I think from my experience, the most important skill for a property management company is hiring skills, everything else is secondary to that because if they don't hire the right people, it's not going to work. And that's really what was the trigger on our transition is we just had a series of unfortunate hiring decisions, that we had to go through multiple supervisors and onsite managers that did not follow what we wanted to do and did not execute the way we wanted them to execute, did not treat our residents right. So that was really the last straw for us is kind of like we gave them a 'get better by this date' and it didn't so we just decided to move on and break the package.  There was no hard feeling, and I still talked to the previous property manager ownership, but we have accountability to our investors and we have accountability to our partners and we got to make sure that if things are not moving in the right direction, then we make a change.   James: But what was the signal? Because you are sitting in Dallas and this isn't Lubbock. And what is the signal that gives you that hint that something is not right?   Joseph: We had a property that we had a big surge of non-renewals; residents that didn't want to renew the lease. And that was really one of our big flags and since then we've already implemented a process where we bypassed the property management company and sent surveys directly to the residents to get a feel of what's going on in the property; how do they feel, how were they getting treated? So we just had a manager that when we were on site, she was all wonderful and great, but when we were not on site, she didn't treat the residents right and that was just really bad because retention is critical and when residents don't want to renew because the manager is not treating them with respect, that's a big problem. James: So, was the property management company with you sending survey direct to the residents?  Joseph: That was non-negotiable at that point.  James: Okay. Okay. So when you saw a lot of non-renewal then you said, okay, I'm going to just do a survey on our own, which is a very good thing because I think a lot of people struggle to identify that weakness, right? But you're right, non-renewal can be a good indication of how the management is treating them or whether the work orders are not being completed as to what the residents want. Because as you know, turnover is going to be the biggest expense in any market family operation, especially in Class B and C. And once you see that, that's a red flag there. So let me ask you a few other things that you want to give advice to Newbies, right? So can you name like three to five tips for Newbies who tried to start at this stage of the market in multifamily? Joseph: Yes. Start with, don't be optimistic. There's a lot of really optimistic underwriting out there that come across my desk and it's scary. Yes, the market might still go up, we don't have a crystal ball but if your exit strategy depends on you being better than the market today, then you've got a problem. If the entire market is at 90% occupancy and your exit strategy depends on you being 96% occupied, there is a problem there. If you plan on rents going up, but you don't plan on expenses going up, you've got a problem. So these are the little things in your underwriting that can really trip you because it's excels live, very easily. All you have to do is to tweak a number here and tweak a number there and you take a five cap transaction and make it an eight cap transaction. and that's just not something that you should risk. One thing I don't like in underwriting that you see a lot from big brokerages is a 1% loss to lease. I see you laugh; as an operator, I don't want a 1% loss to lease. If I have a unit that rents for $700 market rent, but I have a residence in it for 650, I'm not going to kick him out if it's time to renew; $50 a month, that's $600 a year; it's going to take me about $1,500 to renovate the unit, that means it's going to be more than a year and a half before I see my money back.   James: Yeah. And you have vacancies too and you have all the stress of turning around the property.   Joseph: That's what I said, it's like more than a year and a half at least so it's kind of like, why would I do that? And if you look at $50 out of 700 that's more than 1% so that's really where you see an underwriting like this, you need to scratch it off and put a more reasonable number in there. And don't ask me what is a reasonable number because it depends on the property. If your rents are $1,000 a month, you can take 2 or 3% but if your rents are 400 and you're not going to kick them out for $25, but $25 out of $400, that's 7- 8%, so that's really where you got to be realistic; you've got to look at the numbers. So when we have, for example, in the underwriting, we underwrite occupancy and we've projected occupancy for the next three, five, seven, 10 years, whatever the whole period is, I also have another table right next to it in the excel file that shows me what it looks in unit numbers because when you put 7% or 8%, it's easy to just think, oh, it's just 7% but if you have 7% out of a hundred units, that's seven units vacant but if it's 300 units, now it's 21 vacant units. So I always like to kind of put things back in perspective; percentages to dollars, dollars to percentages and so on just so people will kind of realize that, okay, it's not just a number that I throw on there. So that's what it's going to meet. James: Got It. Got It. So let's say for passive investors looking at a deal that's being presented to them, right? So we talked about the things that we want to watch out for even for newbies who are sponsors, but as a passive investor, how can they identify that this sponsor is being aggressive?  Joseph: So for a passive investor that looks at an offer, any offer, I say they have to focus on four different things. First, they got to look at the market. Just like we talked at the beginning, what is that market? What is the job worth? What is the economy? If you're going to have a property that has a 7% unemployment rate today in 2019 when the market is hot and there are more job openings than people that request unemployment, then that's not a great market to be in when the market shifts. So where's the market?  The second thing they need to look at is the opportunity, the actual deal itself. This is where you look at, how conservative is the underwriting, did they underwrite for vacancies, did they underwrite for economic vacancies, did they underwrite for capital that's going to have to be done capital reserves and so on? And the third thing they need to look for is the team, like you said earlier, who's the operator? What's their track record, what's their background? And then the fourth thing, which is something I just added recently, they need to look for one letter in 150 legal documents and that letter is, unfortunately, the letter F, just to make sure they don't get f'd. So my distribution is going to be considered the return on investment, return on capital, or is it going to be the return of capital with an 'F' because it's gonna make a huge difference between the two if you get a return on capital or return of capital. James: Yeah, I know what exactly you're talking about. Can you briefly explain the two scenarios so people can get it very clearly? What is the difference between the return on capital and return of capital? Joseph: Yeah, so if you give me $100,000 and I structure our returns as return on capital and I give you, let's say, a 10% preferred return, then in the first year, I'll give you $10,000 that's 10% of everything that has happened. The next year, if I want to give you 10%, I have to give you another $10,000 because your capital in the deal did not change, right? However, if I'm doing a return of capital, then the first year I gave you 10,000, your remaining of the capital in the deal is now 90,000. For me to satisfy the 10% preferred return, I'm going to just in a year a half to give you $9,000 this year and the next year it's going to be 8,100 and the year after, so on and so on so that's one thing.  The other thing is when we get to the sale part on the return on capital, if we had no capital event, like a refi' or something of that in the middle, then I first have to pay you back all your $100,000 and then whatever is left, we get to split whatever the split is between the sponsors and the and the passive investors. However, if I've depleted your remaining capital basis in the deal, so now you have let's say $50,000 remaining, all I have to do is give you your $50,000 and then we split. So by putting one letter in that document and there are usually 150 pages that you're going to get handed over as a passive investor and all they have to do is change one letter, just one. So I think that if a sponsor does that and they don't clearly explain that to you, then that's in my opinion, not so ethical. James: Got It. Got It. Yeah. A lot of times passive investors who jumping into investing passively in commercial real estate, know a lot about the deal two to three years after they started investing.  A lot of times they did not know all these types of details in the beginning because it's a fear of missing out, everybody wants to invest because they didn't want to miss out; that all their friends are making money in the same asset class and they didn't want to miss out. They forget about all the legal structures that they have in the PPM or the company agreement that's given to them.  Let me look at one last question; so tell us, where can the audience find you?    Joseph: Yeah, it's very easy. You can find us on our website, my email, my phone number, it's all there. It's Ebgtexas.com. That's our brokerage website, easy to find us.    James: Okay. Awesome. All right, audience, thanks for joining me on Achieve Wealth Podcast. And one thing to not miss out is make sure you guys go and look at Facebook; we have a new Facebook group called Multifamily Investors Group. We have grown up to like 680 members right now within two or three weeks. The first week, it's we have like 500 people. And that Facebook group we have created to show live operations from the ground up and talk just specifically about multifamily. We don't have a lot of promotions or spam there and hopefully, everybody's getting value. So I encourage you guys to go and check it out, Multifamily Investors Group on Facebook and join them. Thank you. Thank you.