Podcasts about ospo

At Arm, open source is the default approach, with proprietary software requiring justification, says Andrew Wafaa, fellow and senior director of software communities. Speaking at KubeCon + CloudNativeCon Europe, Wafaa emphasized Arm's decade-long commitment to open source, highlighting its investment in key projects like the Linux kernel, GCC, and LLVM. This investment is strategic, ensuring strong support for Arm's architecture through vital tools and system software.Wafaa also challenged the hype around GPUs in AI, asserting that CPUs—especially those enhanced with Arm's Scalable Matrix Extension (SME2) and Scalable Vector Extension (SVE2)—are often more suitable for inference workloads. CPUs offer greater flexibility, and Arm's innovations aim to reduce dependency on expensive GPU fleets.On the AI framework front, Wafaa pointed to PyTorch as the emerging hub, likening its ecosystem-building potential to Kubernetes. As a PyTorch Foundation board member, he sees PyTorch becoming the central open source platform in AI development, with broad community and industry backing.Learn more from The New Stack about the latest insights about Arm: Edge Wars Heat Up as Arm Aims to Outflank Intel, Qualcomm Arm: See a Demo About Migrating a x86-Based App to ARM64Join our community of newsletter subscribers to stay on top of the news and at the top of your game. 

Eddie Knight, OSPO lead at Sonatype, discusses how the EU Cyber Resilience Act can help with improving your software project's security and in the same time to slow down the alarming acceleration of software supply chain attacks. Read a transcript of this interview: https://bit.ly/3RDMPVX Subscribe to the Software Architects' Newsletter for your monthly guide to the essential news and experience from industry peers on emerging patterns and technologies: https://www.infoq.com/software-architects-newsletter Upcoming Events: InfoQ Dev Summit Boston (June 9-10, 2025) Actionable insights on today's critical dev priorities. devsummit.infoq.com/conference/boston2025 InfoQ Dev Summit Munich (October 15-16, 2025) Essential insights on critical software development priorities. https://devsummit.infoq.com/conference/munich2025 QCon San Francisco 2025 (November 17-21, 2025) Get practical inspiration and best practices on emerging software trends directly from senior software developers at early adopter companies. https://qconsf.com/ QCon AI NYC 2025 (December 16-17, 2025) https://ai.qconferences.com/ The InfoQ Podcasts: Weekly inspiration to drive innovation and build great teams from senior software leaders. Listen to all our podcasts and read interview transcripts: - The InfoQ Podcast https://www.infoq.com/podcasts/ - Engineering Culture Podcast by InfoQ https://www.infoq.com/podcasts/#engineering_culture - Generally AI: https://www.infoq.com/generally-ai-podcast/ Follow InfoQ: - Mastodon: https://techhub.social/@infoq - Twitter: twitter.com/InfoQ - LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/company/infoq - Facebook: bit.ly/2jmlyG8 - Instagram: @infoqdotcom - Youtube: www.youtube.com/infoq Write for InfoQ: Learn and share the changes and innovations in professional software development. - Join a community of experts. - Increase your visibility. - Grow your career. https://www.infoq.com/write-for-infoq

Deb Bryant discusses her career journey and the significant role of open source software in public policy, particularly in the US and Europe. She highlights her work with the Open Source Initiative, Oregon State University, and Red Hat, emphasizing the importance of open source in government operations and cybersecurity. Deb also addresses the challenges and evolution of open source policies, the critical need for sustainability in open source projects, and her current focus on AI's impact on the ecosystem. She concludes by advocating for harmonized international regulations and human-centered AI approaches. 00:00 Introduction 00:44 Government and Open Source Software 01:38 Experiences in the Private Sector 02:14 Open Source in Public Policy 04:31 Cybersecurity and Open Source 07:42 Sustainability in Open Source 15:05 Future of Open Source and AI 18:53 Conclusion and Final Thoughts Guest: Deb Bryant, Director, US Policy and Founder, Open Policy Alliance Open Source Initiative Throughout her career, Deborah has lent her voice to supporting open source projects and developers, building bridges between academia, industry, non-profits, and government along the way. Today she provides guidance to open source foundations seeking to support public policy development in open technology domains. She has worked in emerging technology and has been an advocate of free and open source software and the community that makes it so since the 1990s. Deborah is board director emeritus at the Open Source Initiative (OSI); serves on the DemocracyLab board; serves on the advisory boards of Open Source Elections Technology Foundation and the OASIS Open Project, and as an advisor to the Brandeis University Open Technology Management program. She also represents OSI as a member of the Digital Public Goods Alliance. For eight years prior to her reentry into the nonprofit world, she led one of the world's largest open source program offices (OSPO) at Red Hat where her global team was responsible for the company's strategy and stewardship in open source software communities. While at Red Hat she served on the Eclipse Foundation board for two years. Deborah's published academic research includes the Use of Open Source in Cybersecurity in the Energy Industry and Collaborative Models for Creating Software in the Public Sector.  

In this episode, Katherine Druckman speaks to Alex Scammon, who leads the Open Source Program Office (OSPO) at G Research. Alex discusses the company's significant contributions to open source projects and their unique operating model. He covers the success of Armada, a CNCF sandbox project for multi-cluster batch scheduling, and the considerable efforts of G Research's OSPO, which includes 30 engineers dedicated to direct open source contributions. Alex also shares insights on the benefits of supporting open source projects, the complexities of project prioritization, and the collaborative efforts in the open source community. The episode emphasizes the importance of sustainable open source involvement and offers a glimpse into G Research's mission to use AI and ML tools to drive financial market predictions.   00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome 00:08 Overview of Alex's Role and OSPO 03:27 Importance of Open Source Contributions 04:37 Prioritizing Projects and G Research 07:27 Challenges and Collaboration 12:43 Personal Journey in Open Source 18:09 Encouraging Open Source Contributions   Guest: Alex Scammon: Currently, I'm leading a large and intrepid band of open-source engineers engaged in a number of philanthropic upstream contributions on behalf of G-Research. All of our work centers around open-source data science and machine learning tools and the MLOps and HPC infrastructure to support those tools at scale. We're almost certainly hiring.... As part of this work, I'm also leading a discussion around batch scheduling on Kubernetes as the chair of the CNCF's Batch Working Group. Please reach out if this is an area of interest for you -- we'd love to have more voices at the table!

Au programme de la 228e émission diffusée mardi 3 décembre 2024 : Paris et logiciels libres avec Magali Lemaire : Cheffe du Bureau de l'Ingénierie Logicielle et du Développement (BILD) et Philippe Bareille : Chargé de mission open source, OSPO (Open Source Program Office) la chronique « Le truc que (presque) personne n'a vraiment compris mais qui nous concerne toutes et tous » de Benjamin Bellamy sur le RGDP (règlement général de protection des données) la chronique « À la rencontre du libre » de Julie Chaumard sur « Retour d'expérience de la messagerie libre Galae » « Quoi de Libre ? » Actualités et annonces concernant l'April et le monde du Libre Pour retrouver toutes les informations concernant l'épisode, rendez-vous sur la page dédiée.Sur cette page, vous pouvez mettre un commentaire pour l'épisode. Et même mettre une note sur 5 étoiles si vous le souhaitez. Il est important pour nous d'avoir vos retours car, contrairement par exemple à une conférence, nous n'avons pas un public en face de nous qui peut réagir.Aidez-nous à mieux vous connaître et améliorer l'émission en répondant à notre questionnaire (en cinq minutes). Vos réponses à ce questionnaire sont très précieuses pour nous. De votre côté, ce questionnaire est une occasion de nous faire des retours. Pour connaître les nouvelles concernant l'émission (annonce des podcasts, des émissions à venir, ainsi que des bonus et des annonces en avant-première) inscrivez-vous à la lettre d'actus.

In this special episode of The Business of Open Source, I spoke with Nithya Ruff, director of Amazon's Open Source Program Office (often referred to as an OSPO). We started out talking a little about what exactly an OSPO is and what they do in companies — something I'm guess not everyone understands. It boils down to managing the company's open source strategy — something that is relevant to pretty much any company that writes software of any kind. There are a lot of components to an open source strategy, and there are different ‘models' for an open source strategy, depending not just on the company's size, but also whether or not open source is core to what the company sells. Nithya previously led the OSPO at Comcast, and talked a bit about the difference between running an OSPO for the a company like Comcast and a place like AWS, because their products are different. And why do open source strategies matter for startups? Even if you're not an open source company, if you can't prove you're in compliance with open source licenses for projects you depend on, or if there are security concerns related to your open source use, it can sabotage acquisitions. By the way, helping startups figure out their open source strategy is what I do as a consultant. If you're figuring out how to balance your open source project and your product strategy, and how to manage the risks and opportunities associated with open source projects, you might want to work with me.  

Thank you to the folks at Sustain (https://sustainoss.org/) for providing the hosting account for CHAOSSCast! CHAOSScast – Episode 91 In this episode of CHAOSScast, host Matt Germonprez is joined by Red Hat's Senior Data Scientist Cali Dolfi and Community Architect Josh Berkus to discuss their experiences in measuring and maintaining open source community health. They delve into their day-to-day roles, challenges, and key projects like Project Aspen, the importance of contextual metrics, and the impact of generative AI on their work. Also, they emphasize the importance of goal-oriented metrics and establishing repeatable processes in OSPOs. Press download to hear much more! [00:00:40] Cali and Josh share their backgrounds. [00:02:02] Cali talks about her work as a data scientist at Red Hat, focusing on community open source metrics and mentions her recent projects, including Project Aspen, and her role in developing platforms for data visualization and metrics. [00:04:34] Josh discusses his day-to-day responsibilities which include stewarding Red Hat's involvement in cloud native projects and committee work with the Cloud Native Computing Foundation. [00:06:17] The discussion shifts towards the health of collections of projects or ecosystems and Cali and Josh share their thoughts on how they approach ecosystem health, particularly with the cloud native space. Josh focuses on Kubernetes and its connection to various projects. [00:09:17] Matt questions if Red Hat often plays a stabilizing role within these ecosystems, especially in times of crisis or instability. [00:10:29] Cali discusses current hot topics in open source community health at Red Hat, focusing on SBOM (Software Bill of Materials) analysis and its implications for security and maintenance within the tech industry. They discuss the importance of understanding vulnerabilities within open source projects and the role of maintainers in mitigating these vulnerabilities. [00:14:51] Matt asks about identifying vulnerabilities in upstream projects and notes the challenges of visibility due to numerous projects. Cali explains their approach of analyzing the entire codebase, using visualizations on the ‘8not dashboard' to monitor active maintainers in different project areas. [00:16:43] Josh discusses mainstream tooling focused on known vulnerabilities and emphasizes the need to predict future vulnerabilities. [00:19:16] Matt inquires about handling the variability and contextual specificity of metrics across numerous projects. Cali discusses the importance of contextual understanding in interpreting data and metrics, emphasizing the need for community involvement to enrich the interpretation. Josh argues that improving data collection methods to incorporate contextual knowledge is crucial, aiming to shift some analytical responsibilities from humans to algorithms. [00:24:19] A discussion starts on the role of generative AI in current tech, prompting Cali to reflect on the impact of AI hype cycles on resource allocation within the industry. Josh acknowledges that while some open source machine learning tools have benefited from increased resources due to the AI wave, the introduction of generative AI in community projects has often been problematic. [00:30:03] The conversation shifts back to the challenge of AI-generated contributions to open source projects. Josh and Matt discuss the potential need for Red Hat's Open Source Program Office (OSPO) to adapt its analytics and policies to manage the influx of such contributions. [00:31:35] We close with Cali offering advice to new OSPOs on setting up robust data analysis infrastructures from the start, and Josh reinforces the need for goal-oriented metrics and processes advising OSPOs to design operations that are sustainable and scalable. Value Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:34:52] Matt's pick is being a wildflower gardener. [00:35:24] Josh's pick is being a vegetable gardener. [00:36:20] Cali's pick is the Big Brother show being back on. Panelist: Matt Germonprez Guests: Josh Berkus Cali Dolfi Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Matt Germonprez X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/germ) Josh Berkus Website (https://berkus.org/) Josh Berkus Mastodon (https://m6n.io/@fuzzychef) Cali Dolfi LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/calidolfi/) Cali Dolfi- Red Hat Research Quarterly (https://research.redhat.com/blog/article-author/cali-dolfi/) Red Hat (https://www.redhat.com/en) Project Aspen-GitHub (https://github.com/oss-aspen) US Government Proposes SBOM Rules for Contractors (https://www.infosecurity-magazine.com/news/us-government-proposes-sbom-rules/) Special Guests: Cali Dolfi and Josh Berkus.

Josh and Kurt talk about a story talking about the "graying" of open source. There doesn't seem to be many young people working on open source, but we don't really know why that is. There are many thoughts, but a better question is why should anyone get involved in open source anymore? The world has changed quite a lot since open source was created. Show Notes The graying open source community needs fresh blood OSPOs for Good 2024 Day 1 Part 1 Day 1 Part 2 Day 2 Part 1 Day 2 Part 2 FFmpeg bug JSON Editor Online https://rfc3339.com/

Thank you to the folks at Sustain (https://sustainoss.org/) for providing the hosting account for CHAOSSCast! CHAOSScast – Episode 85 In this episode of CHAOSScast, host Alice Sowerby is joined with Dawn Foster and special guest, Luis Cañas-Díaz from Bitergia. Today, they delve into the Practitioner Guide series created by CHAOSS, particularly focusing on the Responsiveness Guide authored by Dawn. The conversation highlights the challenges people face in interpreting data and metrics within their projects and how the guides aim to provide actionable insights for improvement. Additionally, they touch on the potential risks of misinterpreting metrics and stress the importance of context and direct involvement from project teams to effectively address responsiveness issues. The episode also covers future directions for the guide series and ways the community can contribute and provide feedback. Press download to hear more! [00:02:08] Alice asks Dawn to explain the newly launched Practitioner Guide series by CHAOSS. Dawn elaborates on the Practitioner Guides, addressing the community's struggle with data interpretation and the initiative to provide guidance on metric usage for project improvements. [00:05:02] Luis comments on the utility of the Practitioner Guides, emphasizing the need to focus on goals over metrics to avoid data overload. [00:05:54] Dawn mentions the feedback received on the guides, particularly from Luis and others in various OSPO working groups. [00:07:11] The discussion shifts to the Guide on Responsiveness, with Dawn identifying key metrics like time to first response, time to close, and change request closure ratio. [00:08:37] Luis shares the significance of responsiveness metrics in community growth and ensuring fair treatment across organizational contributors. [00:09:54] Dawn details how the guides suggest making improvements, noting the importance of understanding context, such as seasonal variations or event-related disruptions, in evaluating responsiveness. [00:11:01] We hear some practical tips from Dawn on improving responsiveness, like using templates for contributions to reduce maintainers' review times and discussing time allocation with maintainers to offload non-critical tasks. [00:13:47] Luis emphasizes that metrics highlight things that are happening but require deeper investigation to understand the underlying issues. [00:15:05] Dawn discusses strategies to improve project responsiveness, such as recruiting more maintainers and contributors. She warns against simply pressuring existing maintainers to increase responsiveness, which can lead to burnout and does not address the root cause of delays. [00:17:33] Luis shares experiences from conversations with managers about the pressures of responding to community needs. He warns against using metrics to measure productivity, as it can lead people to manipulate their behavior to look good on metrics rather than genuinely improving their work. Also, he tells us about a book he read that he liked called, “The Tyranny of Metrics.” [00:19:42] Luis explains the critical role of responsiveness on onboarding and retaining new community members, emphasizing the importance of prompt feedback to make newcomers feel valued. [00:20:26] Dawn stresses the impact of responsiveness on new contributors, noting that delays or lack of feedback can permanently discourage them from participating in the project. [00:21:38] Dawn advises patience and persistence in improving responsiveness, emphasizing that it is a long-term effort. [00:22:50] Alice inquires about the future directions for the Practitioner Guides series, and Dawn reveals plans for additional guides on topics like software development practices and community activity and encourages community involvement in creating new guidelines. She discusses possibilities for customizing guides for specific organizational needs, such as what Comcast has done. [00:26:32] Luis suggests exploring educational courses or short video series to help newcomers understand and use metrics effectively in open source projects, emphasizing the long-term value of documentation in retaining knowledge. [00:27:38] Dawn details ways listeners can engage with the CHAOSS community. Value Adds (Picks) of the week: * [00:29:06] Luis's pick is having the opportunity to collaborate with the Mozilla Foundation again since they were involved in the creation of the “Mozilla and the Rebel Alliance” report years ago. * [00:29:54] Dawn's pick is The Practitioner Guides. * [00:31:06] Alice's pick is coffee ice cream. Panelists: Alice Sowerby Dawn Foster Guest: Luis Cañas-Díaz Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Georg Link Website (https://georg.link/) Dawn Foster X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/geekygirldawn?lang=en) Alice Sowerby Website (https://www.rosmarin.co.uk/) Luis Cañas-Díaz Website (https://sanacl.wordpress.com/) Luis Cañas-Díaz LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/canasdiaz/) About the CHAOSS Practitioner Guides (https://chaoss.community/about-chaoss-practitioner-guides/) Unlocking Insights: Practitioner Guides for Interpreting Open Source Metrics (https://chaoss.community/unlocking-insights-practitioner-guides-for-interpreting-open-source-metrics/) Practitioner Guide: Responsiveness (https://chaoss.community/practitioner-guide-responsiveness/) The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Z. Muller (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691174952/the-tyranny-of-metrics) CHAOSS Data Science Working Group-GitHub (https://github.com/chaoss/wg-data-science) Mozilla & the Rebel Alliance (https://report.mozilla.community/) Mozilla (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/) Special Guest: Luis Cañas-Díaz.

Thank you to the folks at Sustain (https://sustainoss.org/) for providing the hosting account for CHAOSSCast! CHAOSScast – Episode 84 In this episode of CHAOSScast, Dawn Foster, Matt Germonprez, Alice Sowerby, and guest Gary White, Principal Engineer at Verizon's OSPO office, delve into the world of viability metrics models developed for assessing the risks associated with using open source software components. Gary explains the creation process of these models, their application within Verizon for software evaluation, and the significance of engaging with the open source community to enhance project viability. The conversations also explore the challenges and considerations in deploying these metrics within organizations, emphasizing the blend of policy enforcement and cultural influence to manage open source software dependencies effectively. Press download now to hear more! [00:02:30] Dawn asks Gary to elaborate on the choice of Verizon for the viability metrics models. He explains the creation of the first four metrics models for assessing risks in open source software components, and the development of a fifth model to simplify the original four. Also, he explains the importance of being quantitative about software library choices, influenced by a research paper from Carnegie Mellon and existing CHAOSS metrics. [00:05:16] Gary mentions using Augur for metrics collection at Verizon and the benefits of tracking with CHAOSS tools. [00:06:27] Matt asks Gary to provide an example of a metric used in the governance model, and he talks about the Libyears metric, which helps understand the total years behind all dependencies of a component, reflecting the risk associated with aging dependencies. [00:07:50] Alice wonders about the “happy region” for the Libyears metric and its implications on risk assessment. [00:09:25] Dawn asks Gary to discuss how these metrics are utilized at Verizon. He describes using these metrics to evaluate the viability of software at Verizon, including different use cases and dependency risks. [00:11:39] Alice explores how Gary considers the context in which components are used when calculating risk. [00:13:24] Matt asks about the process of engaging with the metrics models within the organization. Gary explains that the approach depends on several factors such as severity of finding, buy-in from the organization, and the organizational structure of the OSPO, and details the use of specific resources like the “endoflife.date.” [00:18:07] Gary outlines how Verizon integrates risk management frameworks with organizational tools like dashboards to disseminate collected data and foster buy-in for automated systems. [00:21:16] Alice asks Gary for advice on engaging with open source communities when viability metrics indicate potential issues. Gary highlights the importance of community and governance metrics in driving organizational support for critical open source projects. [00:22:43] Gary shares his experience in the CHAOSS group, emphasizing the value of diverse opinions in developing and validating viability metrics models. [00:24:33] Dawn highlights the significance of the discussions on viability and risk in the OSPO working group, emphasizing how these are critical concerns for OSPO leaders. [00:25:24] Dawn inquires about how Verizon uses CHAOSS metrics beyond viability assessment, particularly in open source management. Gary discusses leveraging CHAOSS metrics across various teams to judge component use and risk profiles and explains Verizon's approach to using metrics involving both an educational component and a policy component. [00:27:33] Gary talks about focusing on the ongoing efforts to integrate and optimize the Augur system at Verizon, acknowledging Sean Goggins for his assistance, and expresses a desire to contribute back to the community, and exploring new metrics to trace and predict significant events in the open source ecosystem. Value Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:30:29] Dawn's pick is going on an Afternoon Tea London Sightseeing Bus Tour with friends. [00:31:07] Matt's pick is reflecting on the value of attending conferences and meeting people. [00:32:10] Gary's pick is the support from the Augur team, attending conferences, and meeting people. [00:32:51] Alice's pick is attending OSSNA in Seattle. Panelists: Dawn Foster Matt Germonprez Alice Sowerby Guest: Gary White Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Dawn Foster X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/geekygirldawn?lang=en) Matt Germonprez X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/germ) Alice Sowerby LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/alice-sowerby-ba692a13/?originalSubdomain=uk) Gary White LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/garywhitejr/) “We Feel Like We're Winging It”: A Study on Navigating Open Source Dependency Abandonment (ACM Digital Library) (https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/3611643.3616293) Libyears (https://chaoss.community/kb/metric-libyears/) endoflife.date (https://endoflife.date/) CHAOSS-Topics: All Metrics Models (https://chaoss.community/kbtopic/all-metrics-models/) CHAOSS-OSS Project Viability Starter (https://chaoss.community/kb/metrics-model-project-viability-starter/) CHAOSS-Augur NEW Release v0.63.3 (https://github.com/chaoss/augur) Classic Afternoon Tea London Sightseeing Bus Tour (https://b-bakery.com/london/bus-tours/afternoon-tea- bus-london) Open Source Summit North America 2024 Seattle (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-summit-north-america/) Special Guest: Gary White.

Thank you to the folks at Sustain (https://sustainoss.org/) for providing the hosting account for CHAOSSCast! CHAOSScast – Episode 83 In this episode of CHAOSScast, Georg and Dawn chat with guest Edward Vielmetti, Developer Partner Manager at Equinix, where he oversees the Open Source Partner Program. Today, they delve into the significance of measuring open source community health using CHAOSS metrics. Edward discusses the importance of providing infrastructure support to open source projects and how Equinix uses CHAOSS metrics to evaluate project health and manage resources efficiently. The discussion also covers the challenges of maintaining open source project health, including governance, code quality, and resources, with insights into predictive metrics and the impact of corporate involvement in open source communities. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:36] Edward introduces himself, tells us what he does, provides a background on Equinix, and talks about their dedicated cloud offering and support for open source projects. He discusses the absence of formal CHAOSS metrics at Equinix but mentions they compare them with internal considerations to ensure project health. [00:06:24] Edward talks about external factors like internal conflicts or external shocks to the system and the importance of being a stabilizing force. [00:9:59] Georg outlines three categories of project health: community activity, code quality, and resources. [00:10:58] Edward talks about using spend as a top-line metric for resource adequacy and the importance of rapid build and test cycles for software projects. [00:15:33] Georg acknowledges Edward's comprehensive view, noting the need for specialized infrastructure beyond what hosting platforms like GitHub and GitLab offer. Edward emphasizes that developing certain kinds of software requires direct access to hardware rather than virtualized environments. [00:19:06] Dawn brings the conversation back to CHAOSS, mentioning context working groups and Edward's active participation in the corporate OSPO working group. Edward talks about the challenges at Equinix in forming a formal OSPO and the value of sharing and learning from peers through CHAOSS. [00:22:33] Dawn appreciated the diversity of companies in the CHAOSS OSPO working group and the broad exchange of ideas. Edward reflects on his long history with open source, noting the evolution and professionalization of the industry. [00:25:32] Georg asks about the future of open source and CHAOSS's potential role, and Edward mentions the trend of open source projects changing control for financial gain and discusses how CHAOSS could help predict or quickly identify such changes. He proposes the collection of certain metrics, such as the number of legal notices a project receives, as indicators of the project's environment. [00:29:44] Edward shares a story, without taking sides, about Terraform relicensing by HashiCorp and the subsequent forks of Terraform, focusing on the OpenTofu fork and the licensing issues around patching from differently licensed software. [00:34:05] Georg discusses observing early risk indicators in projects, such as when a single company's influence increases, potentially raising the risk of unilateral changes, and he expresses a desire for a predictive model for open source project trajectories. [00:35:44] Dawn calls such predictive modeling difficult due to the rarity of events and stresses the importance of community participation for early detection of issues. [00:37:53] Georg brings up the Linkerd project's approach to engaging with the vendor ecosystem and the changes in their release strategy to encourage commercial support, and Edward compares this with CentOS's transition to CentOS Stream. [00:41:48] Georg reiterates the value of participation in open source to be aware of and potentially influence project developments. Value Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:42:29] Georg's pick is finding people that have something you need, and he found someone who was giving away dirt for free that he needed for his garden. [00:43:29] Dawn's pick is Barefoot Day - A family holiday every April 9. [00:44:34] Edward's pick is participating in Ann Arbor's “Visit Every Park” challenge and keeping a log of all his visits. Panelists: Georg Link Dawn Foster Guest: Edward Vielmetti Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Georg Link Website (https://georg.link/) Dawn Foster X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/geekygirldawn?lang=en) Edward Vielmetti Blog (https://vielmetti.typepad.com/w8emv/) Edward Vielmetti Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@w8emv) Edward Vielmetti LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/edwardvielmetti/) Equinix (https://www.equinix.com/) OpenTofu Project X/Twitter re: OpenTofu's legal notice from HashiCorp (https://twitter.com/OpenTofuOrg/status/1776398008558493991) xkcd-Compiling (https://xkcd.com/303/) XZ Utils backdoor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor) UNIX System Laboratories, Inc v. Berkeley Software Design, Inc. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XZ_Utils_backdoor) “Betrayal is the Internet's business model”-Michael Lucas Website (https://mwl.io/archives/23490) Special Guest: Ed Vielmetti.

In this episode of CHAOSScast, host Dawn Foster brings together Matt Germonprez, Brian Proffitt, and Ashley Wolf to discuss the implications of Artificial Intelligence (AI) on Open Source Program Offices (OSPOs), including policy considerations, the potential for AI-driven contributions to create workload for maintainers, and the quality of contributions. They also touch on the use of AI internally within companies versus contributing back to the open source community, the importance of distinguishing between human and AI contributions, and the potential benefits and challenges AI introduces to open source project health and community metrics. The conversation strikes a balance between optimism for AI's benefits and caution for its governance, leaving us to ponder the future of open source in an AI-integrated world. Press download to hear more! [00:03:20] The discussion begins on the role of OSPOs in AI policy making, and Ashley emphasizes the importance of OSPOs in providing guidance on generative AI tools usage and contributions within their organizations. [00:05:17] Brian observes a conservative reflex towards AI in OSPOs, noting issues around copyright, trust, and the status of AI as not truly open source. [00:07:10] Matt inquires about aligning different policies from various organizations, like GitHub and Red Hat, with those from the Linux Foundation and Apache Software Foundation regarding generative AI. Brian speaks about Red Hat's approach to first figure out their policies before seeking alignment with others. [00:06:45] Ashley appreciates the publicly available AI policies from the Apache and Linux Foundations, noting that GitHub's policies have been informed by long-term thinking and community feedback. [00:10:34] Dawn asks about potential internal conflict for GitHub employees given different AI policies at GitHub and other organizations like CNCF and Apache. [00:12:32] Ashley and Brian talk about what they see as the benefits of AI for OSPOs, and how AI can help scale OSPO support and act as a sounding board for new ideas. [00:15:32] Matt proposes a scenario where generative AI might increase individual contributions to high-profile projects like Kubernetes for personal gain, potentially burdening maintainers. [00:18:45] Dawn mentions Daniel Stenberg of cURL who has seen an influx of low-quality issues from AI models, Ashley points out the problem of “drive-by-contributions” and spam, particularly during events like Hacktoberfest, and emphasizes the role of OSPOs in education about responsible contributions, and Brian discusses potential issues with AI contributions leading to homogenization and the increased risk of widespread security vulnerabilities. [00:22:33] Matt raises another scenario questioning if companies might use generative AI internally as an alternative to open source for smaller issues without contributing back to the community. Ashley states 92% of developers are using AI code generation tools and cautions against creating code in a vacuum, and Brian talks about Red Hat's approach. [00:27:18] Dawn discusses the impact of generative AI on companies that are primarily consumers of open source, rarely contributing back, questioning if they might start using AI to make changes instead of contributing. Brian suggests there might be a mixed impact and Ashley optimistically hopes the time saved using AI tools will be redirected to contribute back to open source. [00:29:49] Brian discusses the state of open source AI, highlighting the lack of a formal definition and ongoing efforts by the OSI and other groups to establish one, and recommends a fascinating article he read from Knowing Machines. Ashley emphasizes the importance of not misusing the term open source for AI until a formal definition is established. [00:32:42] Matt inquires how metrics can aid in adapting to AI trends in open source, like detecting AI-generated contributions. Brian talks about using signals like time zones to differentiate between corporate contributors and hobbyists, and the potential for tagging contributions from AI for clarity. [00:35:13] Ashley considers the human aspect of maintainers dealing with an influx of AI-generated contributions and what metrics could indicate a need for additional support, and she mentions the concept of the “Nebraska effect.” Value Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:36:59] Dawn's pick is seeing friends over the 4 day UK Easter holiday, playing board games, eating, and hanging out. [00:37:21] Brian's pick is traveling back home to Indiana to see his first ever total solar eclipse and bringing his NC friends along. [00:38:03] Matt's pick is reconnecting with colleagues this semester and doing talks at GSU and Syracuse. [00:38:40] Ashley's pick is going to the local nursery and acquiring some blueberry plants. Panelists: Dawn Foster Matt Germonprez Brian Proffitt Ashley Wolf Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Georg Link Website (https://georg.link/) Dawn Foster X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/geekygirldawn?lang=en) Matt Germonprez X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/germ) Brian Proffitt X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/TheTechScribe) Ashley Wolf X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/Meta_Ashley) Ashley Wolf LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashleywolf/) AI-generated bug reports are becoming a big waste of time for developers (Techspot) (https://www.techspot.com/news/101440-ai-generated-bug-reports-waste-time-developers.html) Models All The Way Down- A Knowing Machines Project (https://knowingmachines.org/models-all-the-way) xkcd-Dependency (https://xkcd.com/2347/) Special Guest: Ashley Wolf.

In this episode of the podcast, Grizz sits down with Alex Scammon - Head of Open Source Development at G-Research. We talk about Alex's building of an OSPO at G-Research, and how you need to be intrepid when you do something like that. Alex Scammon: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alexscammon/ G-Research: ⁠https://www.gresearch.com/ Attend the London Open Source in Finance Forum 26 June 2024: ⁠https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-finance-forum-london/⁠ 2023 State of Open Source in Financial Services Download: ⁠⁠https://www.finos.org/state-of-open-source-in-financial-services-2023⁠⁠ FINOS Current Newsletter Here: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.finos.org/newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ - more show notes to come Grizz's Info | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/aarongriswold/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠grizz@finos.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ►► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Visit FINOS www.finos.org⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ►► ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Get In Touch: info@finos.org⁠

Thank you to the folks at Sustain (https://sustainoss.org/) for providing the hosting account for CHAOSSCast! CHAOSScast – Episode 80 On today's episode of CHAOSScast, we focus on the experiences and initiatives of the Open Source Program Office at the U.S. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS). Host Dawn Foster is joined by Sean Goggins along with guests, Remy DeCausemaker, Natalia Luzuriaga, Isaac Milarsky, and Aayat Ali, all from various backgrounds within the CMS, who share insights into their efforts in maintaining and promoting an open source culture within federal services. Key discussion points include the launch of the CMS's first open source program office, the development of a maturity model framework to evaluate open source projects, the creation of tools such as Repo Scaffolder and Duplifier to support open source practices, and efforts towards open source software security. This episode emphasizes the distinct aspects of opens source work in government settings compared to the private sector and highlights upcoming presentations at conferences. Download this episode now to hear more! [00:02:21] Dawn asks about the team's work at the U.S. Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. We start with Remy, who explains the launch of the first open source program office at a federal agency in the U.S. and details CMS's mission to improve healthcare experience for over 150 million people and the role of the digital service within CMS. [00:05:36] Natalia discusses the maturity model framework developed to assess the open source maturity level of projects. She describes a “Repo Scaffolder” tool created in collaboration with the U.S. digital response to help projects align with the majority model, and she speaks about additional features for public repositories to aid in development. [00:10:51] Isaac takes over, explaining how they use Auger metrics and “Nadia labeling” to categorize projects and encourage the adoption of their maturity model. He details a metrics website that provides visual representations of project health and activity and introduces “Duplifier,” a deduplication tool for healthcare data, which uses an open source library called Splink. [00:15:14] Sean inquires how they actualize their user needs in metrics visualization and about the process that informs the creation of these visual metrics. Isaac addresses front-end design aspects of metric visualization and the importance of making the metrics understandable at a glance. Natalia emphasizing designing for both technical and non-technical stakeholders, ensuring metrics are clear and understandable. [00:17:44] Aayat discusses her role in strategy development and the creation of a CMS OSPO guide. She emphasizes advocacy withing CMS for open source and plans to conduct workshops and usability testing to determine which metrics are most valuable to stakeholders. [00:19:23] Remy talks about consulting with the chief information security officer and the chief information officer for internal metric priorities and engaging with an external OSPO metrics working group convened by CHAOSS for broader insights. [00:20:47] Dawn asks Remy for more details on the differences with government engagement in open source to the corporate environments. Remy describes the early journey of OSPOs at the federal level and contrasts it with his private sector experience. [00:25:18] Sean asks about what success would look like a year from now for the OSPO group's work. Remy acknowledges the limited four-year term for digital service members, emphasizing the urgency to execute and make an impact within the next year. He highlights the transformative impact of Isaac and Natalia's entrance into the program and the successful shipping of the metrics website, a deduplication tool, and other repositories. [00:27:50] Isaac envisions success as propagating maturity models and open source standards throughout the government, demonstrating value to stakeholders, and growing the OSPO. Natalia is excited to share their foundational OSPO work and contribute to open data initiatives and mentions speaking this year at the Linux Foundation Open Source Summit and PyCon about their work. Aayat defines success as achieving goals in source code stewardship, understanding the maturity and content of repositories, and supporting the team in communicating the value of open source. [00:29:53] Remy brings up Nadia Eghbal giving her credit for influential work and mentioning a team book club inspired by her writings. Value Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:32:39] Dawn's pick is Beat Saber for indoor workouts. [00:33:05] Sean's pick is the HBO max show, True Detective, Season 4. [00:33:22] Remy's pick is the BRAVO Hackathon Series he recently attended. [00:38:14] Natalia's pick is visiting her local library and getting a library card. [00:38:39] Aayat's pick is a good book she read called, “Demon Copperhead.” [00:39:36] Isaac's pick is enjoying the nice weather and getting outside. **Panelists: Dawn Foster Sean Goggins Guests: Remy DeCausemaker Natalia Luzuriaga Isaac Milarsky Aayat Ali Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Georg Link Website (https://georg.link/) Dawn Foster X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/geekygirldawn?lang=en) Sean Goggins X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/sociallycompute) Remy DeCausemaker X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/Remy_D) Remy DeCausemaker LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/decause/) Natalia Luzuriaga LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/natalialuzuriaga/) Isaac Milarsky LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/isaac-milarsky-24471b1b6) Aayat Ali LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/aayat-ali-a5850134/) Aayat Ali Website (https://aayatali.com/) CMS.gov (https://moj-analytical-services.github.io/splink/index.html) Digital Service at CMS (DSACMS)-GitHub (https://github.com/dsacms) Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services-GitHub (https://github.com/CMSgov) United States Digital Corps (https://digitalcorps.gsa.gov/) Splink (https://moj-analytical-services.github.io/splink/index.html) Repo Scaffolder-GitHub (https://moj-analytical-services.github.io/splink/index.html) Metrics Dashboard for CMS Open Source Projects (https://github.com/dsacms/metrics) Repo Metrics Website (https://dsacms.github.io/metrics/) github-ospo (https://github.com/github/github-ospo) The Linux Foundation Open Source Summit-April 16-18, 2024, Seattle, WA (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-summit-north-america/) PyCon US-May 15-23, 2024-Pittsburgh, PA (https://us.pycon.org/2024/) Nadia Asparouhova (aka Nadia Eghbal) Website (https://nadia.xyz/) Working in Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software by Nadia Eghbal (https://www.amazon.com/dp/0578675862/) Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure by Nadia Eghbal (https://www.fordfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure.pdf) CHAOSScast Podcast-Episode 77: Open Source Metrics at Microsoft (https://podcast.chaoss.community/77) Beat Saber (https://beatsaber.com/) True Detective-Season 4 (HBO max) (https://www.hbo.com/true-detective/season-4) BRAVO Hackathon Series (https://bravo.il2.afwerx.dso.mil/about) Demon Copperhead by Barbara Kingsolver (https://www.amazon.com/Demon-Copperhead-Novel-Barbara-Kingsolver/dp/0063251922) Special Guests: Aayat Ali, Isaac Milarsky, Natalia Luzuriaga, and Remy DeCausemaker.

Thank you to the folks at Sustain (https://sustainoss.org/) for providing the hosting account for CHAOSSCast! CHAOSScast – Episode 78 In this episode, host Matt Germonprez is joined by panelists Sayeed Choudhury from Carnegie Mellon University, Clare Dillon from the University of Galway and Lero, Allison Kittinger from the University of Wisconsin-Madison Data Science Institute, and Zach Chandler from Stanford University. They discuss the intricate relationship between open source software and university missions, the role of libraries in supporting OSS, and the collaborative culture fostering community and innovation. The overlapping terrains of open science, open scholarship, and open source in the academic world are explored, along with the challenges and promises of developing universities OSPOs. Join us as we highlight the dynamic growth and potential of OSS in enhancing educational experiences and research output. Press download now to hear more! [00:00:22] The panelists introduce themselves and tell us what they do. [00:01:49] Sayeed begins discussing why universities care about open source software, emphasizing its alignment with university missions and its importance as a research output and educational experience. [00:03:30] Allison continues the role of open source in academia and the importance of creating a supportive culture around it. Zach expresses the importance of open source software in research and teaching, emphasizing the value of sharing and innovation in Stanford's commitment to open source. Clare speaks about the perspective from Lero and the need to improve engagement with open source software across Irish universities. [00:08:12] Matt asks about the relationship with universities' engagement with open source and libraires. Allison discusses the parallels between open source and library functions like scholarly publishing, suggesting the potential need for dedicated open source support within libraries. [00:10:47] Sayeed highlights the libraries' neutrality and curation role within universities, suggesting this aligns well with open scholarship and open source software. Clare shares positive interactions with librarians in the open source ecosystem and praises the librarian discipline. Zach commends academic librarians for their alignment with open source ethos, despite his OSPO not being situated within a library. [00:13:45] Matt asks the panelists to describe a day in their life concerning open source engagement at their universities. Clare talks about working on a framework for open source policy for Irish universities, inspired by Ireland's National Open Research Forum, involving various stakeholders. [00:15:14] Allison mentions her day involved planning and hiring for an outreach specialist role to support open source efforts and future team expansion and discusses focusing on outreach efforts for open source within the community and campus, including event planning and needs assessment. [00:17:03] Zach describes his day like Allison's, involving consultations on open source licensing and learning from advanced open source projects. Sayeed compares open source work at universities to tending a garden and discusses strategic and operational aspects of his role, emphasizing building social capital. [00:21:02] Matt asks if the panelists see their work as building community within their universities. Sayeed discusses building community as a convener and center of competency, helping students and faculty navigate open source issues. [00:22:30] Allison sees her role as building the open source program and community, inspired by the Wisconsin idea that the university's work should benefit the entire state. Zach focuses on building a community among coding leads from various labs through the Maintainers and Contributors Roundtable, aiming to support and elevate software production. Clare highlights the diversity of people involved in open source at universities and the broader societal impact of open source beyond just software development. [00:28:04] Matt asks whether the panelists are making positive strides and acknowledges the newness of some OSPOs. He notes potential challenges like getting various university layers to understand their message. Zach feels successful in engaging the research community and uncovering new projects but faces the challenge of integrating these projects into a meaningful framework. [00:29:44] Allison talks about the excitement and challenge of focusing on key areas without getting overwhelmed by the multitude of directions and projects available. Clare highlights the importance of sharing experiences to avoid duplicating efforts and points out the challenge of translating open source concepts for non-technical audiences. Sayeed discusses the gains at CMU, where the OSPO is beginning to be seen as the go-to for open source. He brings up the challenge of meeting immediate and specific demands from university members like choosing licenses. Value Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:36:16] Matt's pick is a book he read: Of Bicycles, Bakelites, and Bulbs: Toward a Theory of Sociotechnical Change. [00:36:39] Clare's pick is an email titled, “Hope is a verb” from Roger Steare, Corporate Philosopher. Also, an article called, “How to Cultivate Hope,” in Psychology Today. [00:37:21] Sayeed's pick is committing to walking 10,000 steps a day. [00:38:12] Allison's pick is Uplands Pleasant Ridge Reserve Cheese. [00:39:12] Zach's pick is Zee Bracket. Panelist: Matt Germonprez Guests: Sayeed Choudhury Clare Dillon Allison Kittinger Zach Chandler Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Georg Link Website (https://georg.link/) Matt Germonprez X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/germ) Sayeed Choudhury X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/eSayeed) Sayeed Choudhury LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/sayeed-choudhury-4184015/) Clare Dillon X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/claredillon?lang=en) Clare Dillon LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/claredillon/) Allison Kittinger LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/allisonkittinger/) Allison Kittinger Website (http://allisonkittinger.com/) Zach Chandler LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/zchandler/) Stanford University Open Source (https://opensource.stanford.edu/) Lero OSPO-GitHub (https://sfi-lero.github.io/OSPO/) Ireland's National Open Research Forum (NORF) (https://dri.ie/norf/) Of Bicycles, Bakelites, and Bulbs: Toward a Theory of Sociotechnical Change by Wiebe E. Biijker (https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262522274/of-bicycles-bakelites-and-bulbs/) “Hope is a verb” by Roger Steare (https://myemail.constantcontact.com/Hope-is-a-verb-.html?soid=1140842555582&aid=CrDyRpVnTVA) Uplands Cheese-Pleasant Ridge Reserve (https://uplandscheese.com/product/pleasant-ridge-reserve/) Zee Bracket (https://www.loadedboards.com/products/zee-bracket) Special Guests: Allison Kittinger, Clare Dillon, Sayeed Choudhury , and Zach Chandler.

Thank you to the folks at Sustain (https://sustainoss.org/) for providing the hosting account for CHAOSSCast! CHAOSScast – Episode 77 In this episode of CHAOSScast, host Dawn Foster has a compelling discussion with three guests from Microsoft's Open Source Programs Office: Emma Irwin, James Siri, and Justin Gosses. The conversation includes how Microsoft measures the health of open source communities, their experiences with the CHAOSS Community, and the critical role of open source within the organization. Topics such as use of metrics, tackling security issues within scaling, and the future of metrics within the company were discussed. Also, they talk about the value of open source contributions within the business, the role of internal communities, and how they track and improve processes at Microsoft, emphasizing the importance of open source impact both externally and internally. Download this episode now to hear more! [00:00:24] Emma, James, and Justin share their backgrounds with us. [00:01:53] Emma discusses Microsoft's multi-tier approach to metrics, focusing on maintainers' value to products and communities, component intelligence, and engineering standards on GitHub. [00:04:06] James elaborates on his focus on GitHub metrics, the development of policy and tooling for security, and simplifying developers' workflow. [00:04:51] Justin categorizes metrics into those for maintainers, for management, and for developers making decisions on dependencies. He talks about challenges in managing the scale of data from 13,000 repositories and the importance of security metrics. [00:05:37] Emma discusses an experiment with the OpenSSF scorecard for repository security and the effort to motivate improvements in this area. She highlights the challenges of instilling these practices as part of the culture. [00:07:30] Justin sees opportunities to combine CHAOSS metrics with secure supply chain efforts, aiming to aid developers in making informed decisions about dependencies and warning them of potential risks. [00:09:11] Dawn asks about the challenges of scaling metrics and managing the vast number of dependencies. Justin responds by describing an experience focused on aiding developers at the start of a project, helping them make data-informed choices about a few key dependencies. [00:12:51] Emma adds that from the Open Source Programs Office (OSPO) perspective, having a dashboard to direct inquiries is very helpful. James mentions that the dashboard also provides an easy way to surface security guidance. [00:13:27] The conversation shifts to Dawn asking about the business aspect of open source within Microsoft and how they measure this impact. James responds that open source is integral to Microsoft's software development approach, aiming to build an internal community and avoid duplicating solutions. He also discusses the importance of Software Bill of Materials (SBOMs) for security and supply chain transparency. [00:16:00] Emma elaborates on the internal value of external open source contributions, sharing how they help maintainers demonstrate the business impact during reviews. [00:17:14] Dawn inquiries about the future direction for Microsoft regarding metrics and measurement. Justin touches on exploring the area of funding, aiming to improve conversations about financial contributions to open source projects and achieving better return on investment. [00:19:10] James mentions that their package selection work for developers has been inspired by CHAOSS metrics, suggesting that these insights be shared in OSPO working group meetings. Value Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:19:34] Dawn's pick is getting her permanent residency approval allowing her to live in the UK without any restrictions. [00:19:59] Emma's pick is taking a break over the holidays and being outside as much as possible. [00:20:33] Justin's pick is a book he enjoyed reading called, Elinor Ostrom: An Intellectual Biography. [00:21:19] James's pick is reconnecting with art and music as an avenue for self-expression. *Panelist: * Dawn Foster Guests: Emma Irwin Justin Gosses James Siri Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Georg Link Website (https://georg.link/) Dawn Foster X/Twitter (https://twitter.com/geekygirldawn?lang=en) Emma Irwin LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmamirwin/) James Siri LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-siri/) James Gosses LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/justingosses/) Justin Gosses Website (https://justingosses.com/) OSS Project Viability: Compliance + Security (https://chaoss.community/kb/metrics-model-oss-project-viability-compliance-security/) Elinor Ostrom: An Intellectual Biography by Vlad Tarko (https://books.google.com/books/about/Elinor_Ostrom.html?id=01TysgEACAAJ) Special Guests: Emma Irwin, James Siri, and Justin Gosses.

Guest Joseph Castle Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes In this episode, Richard welcomes Joe Castle, Executive Advisor for Strategic Partnerships and Technology at SAS, and he was previously featured on an episode in the FOSSY 2023 series podcasts. Today, they engage in conversations about various aspects of open source and Code.gov, exploring its history, budget changes, and challenges. Joe provides an overview of SAS Institute, its role in analytics and AI software, and its presence in the federal government. The discussion dives into the federal source code policy, its key aspects, and the allocation of the federal IT budget. They explore the idea of making government source code open source and the challenges associated with it, and there's a discussion on the importance of supporting open source projects and various initiatives in different countries and labs. Press download now to hear more! [00:01:23] Joe gives us an overview of SAS Institute, its focus on analytics and AI software, and its presence in the federal government and other sectors. [00:02:08] Joe talks about his background and how he became an advocate for open source software, especially Python, in both personal and professional context. He discusses his role at SAS, which involves promoting open source integration and education. [00:06:41] We learn about the history of Code.gov, which was born out of the U.S. federal source policy in 2016, and then Joe explains the three key aspects of the federal source code policy: creating a source code policy, updating acquisition language, and publishing an inventory of source code, including at least 20% as open source software. [00:10:03] Richard mentions the size of the federal IT budget and asks about the allocation of the remaining 93% of the budget. Joe explains that the 93% of the budget goes towards labor, infrastructure, commodity IT, and various IT-related expenses. [00:14:31] Richard inquires about the availability of a manifest listing all open source packages on Code.gov, and Joseph explains that Code.gov provides agency inventories of their source code, and each agency can decide what to include or exclude from the list based on various factors, including security. [00:16:31] Joe discusses his involvement with Code.gov, which started when he worked at the White House and volunteered to help implement the federal source code policy. [00:19:21] Richard asks about the budget for Code.gov and its changes over the years and Joe clarifies that Code.gov had a budget of about a million dollars a year for platform, staff, and related expenses. [00:20:09] Joe discusses the rise and fall of Code.gov, including policy changes and a decrease in funding, resulting in downsizing and limited maintenance of the website and code. [00:22:30] The role of the CIO at OMB is brought up and Joe explains that the focus of the federal CIO can shift with changing priorities and administrations. [00:23:23] Richard asks about how to reinvigorate Code.gov and whether it's possible to influence the CIO to prioritize it. Joe mentions an interaction with a Senate committee staffer and suggests that getting attention from key decision-makers is essential for pushing such initiatives. [00:27:34] Richard wonders if there are any internal efforts to track multiple contracts for the same vendors and improve code management. Joe tells us he's not aware of specific internal efforts but mentions the existence of similar projects in other places. [00:31:47] Joe notes that there weren't discussions about financially supporting open source projects at Code.gov, and the focus was on making the code available to the public and raising awareness of its existence. [00:32:52] Richard discusses the importance of supporting open source projects used by the government and mentions governmental efforts like the Sovereign Tech Fund in Germany. Joe talks about how certain agencies and labs, such as NASA and the Department of Energy, fund open source projects. He also mentions that he once considered making Code.gov an open source project separate from the government but didn't proceed with the idea, and he mentions the GitHub Government website. [00:37:06] Find out where you can follow Joe on the internet. Quotes [00:07:06] “Code.gov was born out of the U.S. Federal source code policy.” [00:18:37] “It's basically holistically the OSPO for the U.S. federal government.” Spotlight [00:37:45] Richard's spotlight is a book series he read called, Bloody Jack by L.A. Meyer. [00:38:27] Joe's spotlight is some great books he read: The Work by Wes Moore, Still Standing by Larry Hogan, and Bridgebuilders by William D. Eggers and Donald F. Kettl. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@richlitt) Joseph Castle Twitter (https://twitter.com/jrcastle_vt) Joseph Castle, PhD LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/jrcastle/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 197: FOSSY 2023 with Joe Castle (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/197) SAS (https://www.sas.com/en_us/home.html) Code.gov (https://code.gov/) Data.gov (https://data.gov/) Defense Finance and Accounting Service (https://www.dfas.mil/) U.S. Department of Defense (https://www.defense.gov/) GitHub and Government (https://government.github.com/) Bloody Jack by L.A. Meyer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloody_Jack_(novel)) The Work: Searching for a Life That Matters by Wes Moore (https://www.amazon.com/Work-Searching-Life-That-Matters/dp/081298384X) [Still Standing: Surviving Cancer, Riots, a Global Pandemic, and the Toxic Politics That Divide America by Larry Hogan](https://www.amazon.com/Still-Standing-Surviving-Pandemic-Politics/dp/B08CFVK3VK/ref=sr11?) Bridgebuilders: How Government Can Transcend Boundaries to Solve Big Problems by William D. Eggers and Donald F. Kettl (https://www.amazon.com/Bridgebuilders-Government-Transcend-Boundaries-Problems-ebook/dp/B0B5Y8XZKR) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Joseph Castle, PhD.

Guest Dr. Laura Dornheim Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes On today's episode of Sustain, Richard welcomes Dr. Laura Dornheim, the Chief Digital Officer (CDO) of the city of Munich, who discusses her coding background, role as the CDO, and Munich's digital initiatives. The conversation dives into Munich's past experience with the Linux based LiMux project, and its strong support for open source today. Dr. Dornheim's balanced approach to open source, collaborations with Berlin, and the city's open source code publication are highlighted. The discussion covers Germany's Sovereign Tech Fund, tech understanding, and the EU's Cyber Resilience Act. Dr. Dornheim shares her perspective on dealing with challenges in her role, her optimism, and the importance of public money and public code. Hit download now to hear more! [00:01:17] Dr. Dornheim clarifies her coding experience and that she learned to code at a young age but never worked as a developer. [00:02:40] Dr. Dornheim explains her role as the CDO of Munich, being responsible for all tech in the city, overseeing various digital initiatives, and moving towards a smarter city. [00:03:55] She discusses the city's interactions with its citizens, such as applying for passports or changing addresses through online services, and she mentions their current project of creating a digital twin of the city. [00:06:00] The discussion shifts to the role of open source in the city of Munich, as Laura talks about Munich's ambitious open source project to replace Microsoft Office with Linux (LiMux) and its subsequent return to Microsoft. [00:08:54] We hear Dr. Dornheim's approach to open source, emphasizing a balanced perspective and bridging the gap between open source supporters and opponents. She highlights successful open source implementations in the city, such as open source tools for online forms and appointment scheduling at the citizen's office, developed collaboratively with Berlin. [00:12:00] Richard asks about the breakdown of services that could be seen as state or federal level I the U.S. compared to Munich. Dr. Dornheim explains that in Germany, services like applying for passports are managed a local level, with 11,000 communities responsible for such processes. [00:15:17] Richard asks how Munich ensures that the open source software it uses can be contributed to by external individuals or entities. Dr. Dornheim mentions launching an open source sabbatical to pay individuals to work on open source projects, promoting more external contributions. She also tells us where Munich's open source code is published, primarily on GitHub and the Code platform launched by the public administration in Germany. [00:17:42] Richard inquires about the potential for other states to contribute to Munich's open source projects, and Dr. Dornheim explains that they have both fully open projects and smaller ones that are published but may not receive external contributions. [00:19:15] Dr Dornheim addresses a question Richard brings up about Germany's Sovereign Tech Fund and the push for self-sufficiency in tech. She views it as a marketing strategy for open source, emphasizing the importance of reducing dependency on a few big players. [00:21:10] Richard mentions the EU's Cyber Resilience Act and inquires about the concerns related to liability in open source software, and Dr. Dornheim emphasizes that the problem isn't liability but the ability to address issues and vulnerabilities. [00:22:46] What are some things that Dr. Dornheim is struggling with? She shares some difficulties they face such as dealing with 800 schools and day care places that run their own services, and the challenge of transitioning local politicians away from paper-based processes. [00:26:13] Dr. Dornheim mentions that she came to open source through her engagement in politics around digital and tech issues, emphasizing the importance of public money and public code. [00:26:55] Find out where can you interact with the City of Munich's digital office. Quotes [00:06:57] “If you try to brute force 40,000 people to an operating system that they're not used to not only make friends, let's put in that way.” [00:07:42] “Today, open source is more alive and more supported in the city of Munich than ever. We have our own OSPO that we're building up and growing.” [00:16:00] “We are launching an open source sabbatical where we really want to pay people wherever they are currently employed.” [00:18:44] “The whole aim behind open software is to make public administration more transparent and interactive because I really think it's important that we lower this perceived barrier between the people and the state.” Spotlight [00:28:02] Richard's spotlight is Raphaël Nussbaumer, and eBird reviewer in Switzerland. [00:28:42] Dr. Dornheim's spotlight is Miriam Seyffarth from the Open Source Business Alliance in Berlin. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Open Collective-SustainOSS (Contribute) (https://opencollective.com/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@richlitt) Dr. Laura Dornheim LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lsdornheim/?originalSubdomain=de) München Digital (https://muenchen.digital/) City of Munich-GitHub (https://github.com/it-at-m) LiMux (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux#:~:text=LiMux%20was%20a%20project%20launched,free%20software%20based%20on%20Linux.) Sovereign Tech Fund (https://sovereigntechfund.de/en/) EU Cyber Resilience Act (https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/policies/cyber-resilience-act) Zoziologie-Raphaël Nussbaumer (https://zoziologie.raphaelnussbaumer.com/) Miriam Seyffarth LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/miriam-seyffarth-819691b1/?originalSubdomain=de) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Dr. Laura Dornheim.

Ashley Wolf, Open Source Program Office Director at GitHub, joins us to share lessons learned at GitHub. As the home of so much open source code, GitHub has a unique view of the open source ecosystem. Ashley shares her own take on the role of an OSPO, trends in open source software development, and the tools her team gives back to the community. Resources: github-ospo repo on GitHub Stale Repos GitHub Action Guest: Ashley Wolf is the Director of Open Source Programs at GitHub. She runs initiatives and programs to empower developers to be successful with open source. She is also passionate about helping companies participate in the open source community. Prior to joining GitHub, Ashley led the Yahoo (acquired by Verizon) open source program office. Ashley also serves on the steering committee for the TODO Group.

Arun Gupta, Vice President and General Manager of Open Ecosystem Initiatives at Intel Corporation, discusses open-source strategy and community with SE Radio host Kanchan Shringi. They explore the business case and business model for why and how big tech participates in the open-source ecosystem. Arun describes ways to foster a culture of engagement with open source within companies such as Intel, Amazon, and Apple. They then consider how the principles can be applied to closed-source software within a company. Finally, they discuss some of the benefits that Intel has gained from more than 20 years of open source contributions and look at the company's plan for the year ahead. SE Radio is rought to you by IEEE Software magazine and IEEE Computer Society.

Jessica Marz, Director of Intel's Open Source Program Office, discusses the role of the OSPO in securing the software supply chain and the role she plays in encouraging good open source citizenship. Guest: Jessica Marz  Director of Open Source Program Office An expert at explaining legal concepts to software developers and software development concepts to lawyers, Jessica is responsible for defining and managing Intel's open source approval policies and practices. She's also an avid arts-and-crafter known for her creative reuse of materials.

Guests Wolfgang Gehring | Ana Jiménez Santamaría Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! Today, Richard is joined by two guests from FOSS Backstage 2023 in Berlin. His first guest is Wolfgang Gehring, OSPO Head at Mercedes-Benz Tech Innovation. Wolfgang discusses the importance of open source at Mercedes-Benz. He mentions the company's recent FOSS convention, explains his role in getting people to work together, and talks about the challenges of de-risking and softening legal requirements. Richard asks for advice on how other large industrial companies can get started with OSPO. Finally, Wolfgang discusses his involvement with the Eclipse Foundation and their efforts to revise the Cyber Resiliency Act in the EU, and a great conversation about how large industries use and evangelize open source. Richard's next guest he has another great conversation with is Ana Jiménez Santamaría. She discusses her work with the OSPO community and the importance of sustainability in open source ecosystems. Richard and Anna discuss a survey done by the TODO Group. Also, Ana talks about the importance of educating non-tech audiences on open source, and her new YouTube channel helping teach open source in an easy way to those not familiar with the tech stuff, particularly in Spanish, where there is a lack of content. Download this episode to hear more! Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?lang=en) FOSS Backstage 2023 (https://foss-backstage.de/) Wolfgang Gehring LinkedIn (https://de.linkedin.com/in/dr-wolfgang-gehring-9a8723201) Open Source Mercedes-Benz (https://opensource.mercedes-benz.com/) Mercedes-Benz Group GitHub (https://github.com/mercedes-benz) Eclipse Foundation (https://www.eclipse.org/) Ana Jiménez Santamaría Twitter (https://twitter.com/anajsana95?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ana Jiménez Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@anajsana@fosstodon.org) Ana Jiménez Santamaría LinkedIn (https://es.linkedin.com/in/ana-jim%C3%A9nez-santamar%C3%ADa/en) Ana Jiménez Santamaría YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/@anajsana) TODO Group (https://todogroup.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Ana Jiménez Santamaría and Dr. Wolfgang Gehring.

Guest Lisa Caywood Panelists Richard Littauer | Amanda Casari Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We're very excited for our guest today! Joining us is Lisa Caywood, who's the Senior Principal Community Architect at Red Hat OSPO, and has a podcast about cheese, which we'll learn a little more about. Today, our discussion revolves around managing open source communities, determining their strategic value, and gracefully ending relationships when necessary. We'll also hear about telco industry's shift towards open source code, and the importance of community health and strategic alignment with Red Hat's objectives in deciding whether to continue investing in a particular community. Also, there's a discussion on the challenges of managing relationships between corporations and open source projects. Download this episode to hear much more! [00:01:32] Lisa shares that Red Hat's OSPO focuses on outbound open source engagement, ensuring healthy and well-governed communities, and advising on engagement strategies. She tells us what a Senior Principal Community Architect does. [00:04:04] Lisa emphasizes the importance of community health and strategic alignment with Red Hat's objectives in deciding whether to continue investing in a particular community. [00:05:59] The discussion revolves around managing open source communities. [00:08:15] We hear the challenges of parting ways with communities, and Lisa offers insights into managing both individual and corporate transitions. [00:15:06] Lisa explains the challenges of managing relationships between corporations and open source projects. [00:17:30] One key issue is how to communicate with project leaders about sponsorship or support, which requires a nuanced approached. [00:19:37] Networking and telco are discussed as examples of industries where open source communities play a crucial role. Lisa touches on the need for projects to address interoperability pain points and ensure the different pieces of the stack are able to talk to each other in a cohesive way. [00:22:31] Lisa discusses the telco industry's shift towards open source code, with AT&T leading the way bringing a big chunk of their proprietary project into the open source world, and she mentions the ONAP project. [00:27:02] The scale of projects and problems being tackled in the telco industry is talked about since it's so exciting to Lisa, who has always been a big-picture person. [00:31:30] Lisa talks about when leaving a community, it's important to document and take the knowledge and mindset shift towards open source with you to the next community. [00:32:37] Find out about Lisa's podcast and where you can follow her on the web, Quotes [00:07:13] “The individual has to decide it's time to leave, but the company also to decide it's time to leave. Those are two different levels of how to say goodbye.” [00:09:39] “If you're an individual who's coming to the project leadership with a proposal or a plan for how you hand things off to other people, is the best thing you can do.” [00:16:06] “It's more how do I address the feeling and continue to make the sale. That's a different personality and different skillset.” [00:20:02] “It took a long time for Kubernetes to understand that there's a little wire on a diagram that connects your apps and that helps different components talk to each other and that's called the network. You need to include networking people in your community to make this all work and it eventually got there.” [00:21:44] “The number one thing that keep telcos awake at night is I can't have anything break. The conversations that we have with these companies span many different communities because we're not talking about one single type of technology.” [00:23:49] “We're all moving towards the same basic model. We're all going to be doing 80% of this stuff, so let's figure it out together.” [00:26:02] “The scale of Chinese telcos dwarfs AT&T in terms of number of users.” [00:30:56] “As a software person in a hardware company, you're always the odd duck out.” [00:32:05] “It's important not just as individuals, but as a company to be conscious of what you've learned in a community, perhaps documented that these are the useful things that we got from working in this community. Let's make sure we take that with us into our next community so we can take the best things forward.” Spotlight [00:34:03] Amanda's spotlight is a research paper, Name-based demographic inference and the unequal distribution of misrecognition (2023). [00:34:56] Richard's spotlight is the Master and Commander series. [00:35:21] Lisa's spotlight is Christina Warinner, who looked at gut microbiomes of nomadic herds in Mongolia, which helps from a cheesemaking perspective. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Amanda Casari Twitter (https://twitter.com/amcasari?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Lisa Caywood Twitter (https://twitter.com/RealLisaC) Red Hat (https://www.redhat.com/en) Into the Curdverse Podcast (https://intothecurdverse.com/) Into the Curdverse Twitter (https://twitter.com/curdverse) ONAP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ONAP) Name-based demographic inference and the unequal distribution of misrecognition (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41562-023-01587-9) Master and Commander by Patrick O'Brian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_and_Commander) What Bacterial Cultures Reveal About Ours by Virginia Gewin (https://www.sapiens.org/archaeology/dairying-history-microbes/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Lisa Caywood.

Guest Serkan Holat Panelists Richard Littauer | Leslie Hawthorn Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Richard and Leslie are hosting today, and they're very excited to welcome our special guest, Serkan Holat, who's a Freelance Software Developer, with over 20 years of experience in researching finance, open source ecosystems, and digital public goods. He advocates for financing open source software with public money and setting up dedicated public funds called Agile Public Funds. Today, we'll discuss with Serkan, the need to allocate funds to support and publish critical open source software, the importance of sustainability on open source software, and the lack of understanding of the industry's risk profile. Also, Serkan gives us all the details on an experiment he recently started to increase awareness about using public money to finance open source. Download this episode to hear much more! [00:01:47] We start off with Serkan telling us how the tax cause is going. He proposes introducing an open source tax on proprietary software sales, with the revenue going to public funds for distribution to the open source ecosystem. [00:06:11] Serkan explains how he's watched the space grow, and he talks about the Digital Public Goods Alliance that recognizes open source software as a new type of digital public good, and the Sovereign Tech Fund. [00:08:35] Serkan tells us why there shouldn't be any obligations on the developers and what we should do. [00:10:23] We hear Serkan's thoughts on the Sovereign Tech Fund in Germany, an excellent initiative that he supports as a blueprint for other nations to follow, but scalability will become an issue. [00:12:39] Free Software Foundation Europe has a fantastic campaign. Serkan's explains the idea of using public sector collaboration. [00:13:56] There's a discussion on the challenges of implementing public sector collaboration and there's a suggestion of creating a social contract to increase funding for open source software. [00:16:43] What's wrong with the market we currently have? Serkan elaborates on this. [00:20:19] The conversation shifts to Richard, Leslie, and Serkan touching on the role of security in financing open source software, they discuss the allocations of funds to support and publish open source software, the need for sustainability in open source software, and the lack of understanding of the industry's risk profile. [00:28:41] Serkan shares his thoughts on how he's trying to convince software companies to produce open source software. [00:30:31] Richard wonders how a tax on proprietary software to help out open source communities, is going to lead to a more equitable environment, or all people building open source software. [00:32:45] Serkan advocates for the creation of public funds to finance the open source ecosystem, and he's been experimenting with this approach for the past 15 months. He chooses three projects from Open Collective each month and distributes money based on their criticality score. [00:34:11] Find out where you can follow Serkan and all his writings on the web. Quotes [00:02:51] “My proposal on that area is to introduce an open source software tax on proprietor software sales.” Spotlight [00:37:13] Leslie's spotlight is the Chaos Computer Club. [00:38:22] Richard's spotlight is the Feminist Bird Club, Northern Vermont chapter. [00:39:04] Serkan's spotlight is an announcement made by Minister Alexandra van Huffelen, at the EU Open Source Policy Summit 2023. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Leslie Hawthorn Twitter (https://twitter.com/lhawthorn?lang=en) Serkan Holat Twitter (https://twitter.com/coni2k?lang=en) Serkan Holat LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/serkanholat/) Serkan Holat Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@coni2k) Roads and Bridges: The Unseen Labor Behind Our Digital Infrastructure by Nadia Eghbal (https://www.fordfoundation.org/work/learning/research-reports/roads-and-bridges-the-unseen-labor-behind-our-digital-infrastructure/) Digital Public Goods Alliance (https://digitalpublicgoods.net/) Sovereign Tech Fund (https://sovereigntechfund.de/en/) Open Source Project Criticality Score-GitHub (https://github.com/ossf/criticality_score) Open source public fund experiment by Serkan Holat (https://dev.to/coni2k/open-source-public-fund-experiment-lc8) Ecosyste.ms (https://ecosyste.ms/) If it's public money, make it public code!-FOSDEM'23 (https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/public_money_public_code/) Public Money? Public Code! Free Software Foundation Europe (https://publiccode.eu/en/) Switch to open source alternatives in Munich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux) Chaos Computer Club (https://www.ccc.de/en/) Northern Vermont Feminist Bird Club- Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/fbc.nvt/) Dutch Digitalisation Minister announces creation of an OSPO (https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/news/dutch-digitalisation-minister-announces-ospo-creation) Ministerial Address: Alexandra van Huffelen (YouTube) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTQEzKQFjXg&t=18080s) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Serkan Holat.

Guests Bob Killen | Navendu Pottekkat Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. This is a special podcast and one of several in this series for GitHub's Maintainer Month. We're interviewing maintainers to ask them about what their experience is of maintainership and open source. Today, we're very excited to have two guests joining us. Our first guest is Bob Killen, who's a Program Manager at Google, serves the Kubernetes project as a Steering Committee member and chair of the Contributor Experience Special Interest Group. Bob talks about the mentoring cohort approach the Kubernetes community has, the importance of titles, and the value of a defined contributor ladder to recognize and motivate contributors. Our next guest is Navendu Pottekkat, who's a Maintainer of Apache APISIX, the Cloud Native API Gateway. Navendu tells us about his experience in contributing to building, scaling, and maintaining open source projects, his involvement in mentorship programs, and the importance of people focusing on balancing the code with the community aspect. Download this episode now to hear much more! Bob: [00:02:00] Bob's role at Google encourages him to contribute and to be active in the Kubernetes community and being part of the OSPO, where he's focused on maintaining the overall health of the project and keeping track of various services. [00:03:02] He's been in the open source space since mid-2000s and was already working on Kubernetes before joining Google. [00:04:16] We hear about the Contributor Experience Special Interest Group, what Bob does there, and the mentoring cohort approach the Kubernetes community has to help grow people into maintainer roles. [00:07:56] Since Kubernetes avoids private Slack channels, Bob explains how he asks questions in an open place. [00:08:45] Bob finds it challenging to maintain his role in special interest groups while working full-time, as there is always an endless backlog of issues and prioritizing and triaging can be difficult. [00:09:45] What keeps Bob working there? Well, he enjoys the people he works with and going to KubeCon events has helped him connect with so many people. [00:11:45] Something Bob is looking forward to doing is stepping down from some of his leadership roles and mentoring others to replace him. [00:13:15] Bob shares some advice to his potential replacement, and he discusses the importance of titles in helping people understand the time investment and leadership responsibilities of being a maintainer. [00:16:12] He explains the value of a defined contributor ladder to recognize and motivate contributors. [00:16:50] Find out where you can read more about Bob and his work on the web. Navendu: [00:19:29] Our next guest is Navendu, and he tells us about APISIX. [00:21:03] Navendu talks about how he got involved in open source and how he mentors students and new developers who are interested in building stuff in the cloud. Also, he tells us about being a part of the Linux Foundation mentorship program. [00:23:35] We hear about Navendu's involvement in mentorship programs like Google Summer of Code and the Linux Foundation mentorship program. [00:25:30] There's a discussion on the importance of stipends for students and how mentorship is an important aspect of open source projects. [00:26:42] Navendu mentions that it's easy to convince him company and the APISIX community about the importance of mentorship and community in open source. [00:28:24] What's hard about open source for Navendu? He mentions that working on open source projects can be overwhelming especially when there are always issues that need to be addressed and pull requests that need to be reviewed. [00:30:11] We hear some tips for people to step up to take of the community, and Navendu encourages users and community members to get involved. [00:32:20] Find out where you can learn more about Navendu and APISIX online. Quotes Quote from Bob: [00:14:23] “That title winds up being a much bigger thing because it's easier to explain than hey, I'm a lead of this.” Quotes from Navendu: [00:23:11] “Being online 24/7 is taking a toll on my health and is not sustainable.” [00:26:52] “There is always some aspect of mentorship when you're working on open source projects.” [00:29:46] “If you have people focus on community it helps.” [00:30:41] “At some point, some maintainers have to step up and take care of the community.” Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Richard Littauer Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/@richlitt) Bob Killen Website (https://mrbobbytabl.es/) Bob Killen Twitter (https://twitter.com/mrbobbytables) Bob Killen Mastodon (https://hachyderm.io/@mrbobbytables) KubeCon 2023 North America (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/kubecon-cloudnativecon-north-america/) KubeCon 2023 China (https://www.lfasiallc.com/kubecon-cloudnativecon-open-source-summit-china/) Navendu Pottekkat Website (https://navendu.me/) Apache APISIX (https://apisix.apache.org/) Apache APISIX-How to Contribute (https://apisix.apache.org/docs/general/how-to-contribute/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Bob Killen and Navendu Pottekkat.

Guests Chris Baker | Stephen Jacobs Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman | Abby Cabunoc Mayes Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we are excited to have as our guests, Chris Baker and Stephen Jacobs, who work at RIT (Rochester Institute of Technology). Chris is the Assistant Director for the Open@RIT Program Office, and Stephen is a Professor at RIT and the Founder of Open@RIT. Our conversations today focus on how academia is trying to integrate open source into traditional academic practices, and how OSPO's are creating standards and best practices. Stephen and Chris also discuss how to help students deal with diverse incentives in open source and academia, the importance of role diversity in software development, and Stephen advocates for policy change to recognize the value of open work and to give credit to those who do it. Download this episode to hear more! [00:01:39] Chris fills us in on Open RIT where they're working to build open community and foster collaboration in the open space. [00:03:19] Stephen tells us about RIT having an open source department that teaches open source classes, offers an academic minor, and has an experiential education program. [00:07:50] Abby wonders if OSPO's are creating more career pathways, and Stephen explains they hope to create more opportunities in open source work in the future. [00:10:19] We hear about The Boyer's model of scholarship, and a classification system of four types of scholarship, and Stephen mentions the classic “Einstein Eureka” model being one of many, and he brings up Open Work Definition that RIT and a couple of other collaborators put out. [00:15:06] Stephen talks about The Sloan Foundation and why they're so interested in the research space of open source. [00:17:37] Open@RIT was founded by Stephen, Chris is the Assistant Director, and Mike Nolan is the Associate Director, and we'll hear about their responsibilities. [00:19:03] Chris explains how he's helping students deal with diverse incentives in open source and academia, and Stephen adds there's a need for educating on open science practices. [00:23:45] Stephen believes that policy need to change to recognize the value of open work and to give credit to those who do it. He also discusses the importance of role diversity in software development and how it can lead to more DEIA friendly projects. [00:27:10] What successful alumni came out of the Open@RIT? How about Justin Flory Jenn Kotler, and our very own Django Skorupa. [00:29:29] Chris and Stephen talk about other avenues they're pursuing to help teach open work outside of the university, and the FOSSY conference is mentioned. [00:33:59] Find out where you can learn more about Open work at RIT and where you can follow Chris and Stephen on the web. Quotes [00:04:25] “We became the second university with an OSPO.” [00:19:42] “We're taking students given their backgrounds, whether it be full-stack developers, or graphic design, and using that to produce the structure for open work inside of research.” Spotlight [00:36:49] Justin's spotlight is the 988 Crisis Lifeline. [00:37:23 Abby's spotlight is GitHub + Slack Integration open source project. [00:37:45] Richard's spotlight is getyourshittogether.org and Brain Donor Project. [00:38:28] Stephen's spotlight is Software Freedom Conservancy FOSSY Conf. [00:38:55] Chris's spotlight is the young ladies in rural high schools who are standing up to passive and aggressive sexism. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) SustainOSS Mastodon (https://mastodon.social/tags/sustainoss) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Justin Dorfman Twitter (https://twitter.com/jdorfman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Abby Cabunoc Mayes Twitter (https://twitter.com/abbycabs?lang=en) Stephen Jacobs LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/itprofjacobs) Stephen Jacobs RIT (https://www.rit.edu/directory/sxjics-stephen-jacobs) Chris Baker LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/visuallychrisbaker) Chris Baker RIT (https://www.rit.edu/directory/cabopen-christopher-baker) Open@RIT (https://openr.it/) Rochester Institute of Technology (https://www.visitrochester.com/listing/rochester-institute-of-technology/7303/) Boyer's model of scholarship (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyer%27s_model_of_scholarship) Open Work Definition (https://openworkdefinition.com/) Alfred P. Sloan Foundation-Technology (https://sloan.org/programs/digital-technology) The Journal of Open Source Software (https://joss.theoj.org/) Sustain Podcast- Episodes featuring Mike Nolan (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/michael-nolan) Sustain Podcast-Episodes featuring Justin W. Flory (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/justin-w-flory) Sustain Open Source Design-Episode 27: Jenn Kotler on Astronomical Sonification and Designing UX for Science & Open Data (https://sosdesign.sustainoss.org/guests/kotler) 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline (https://988lifeline.org/) GitHub + Slack Integration (https://github.com/integrations/slack) Get Your Shit Together (https://getyourshittogether.org/) Brain Donor Project (https://braindonorproject.org/) Software Freedom Conservancy-FOSSY (https://sfconservancy.org/fossy/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Chris Baker and Stephen Jacobs.

Join us on Ep. 24 of The Hacking Open Source Business Podcast features Nithya Ruff, the Head of Amazon's Open Source Program Office, discussing various aspects of open source with hosts Avi Press and Matt Yonkovit. They cover topics such as the challenges facing open source today, evaluating new open source projects, the importance of Open Source Program Offices (OSPOs) for startups, building successful and sustainable open source businesses, reducing friction for developers, open source diversity, managing diverse talent and competing ideals in open source governance, and Nithya Ruff's role as Chair of the Linux Foundation Board. Throughout the episode, Nithya emphasizes the importance of community building, listening to the community, and maintaining the freedom of the open source definition.What you'll find in this episode:00:00 - Getting to Know Nithya Ruff! 10:28 - What size companies should start thinking about an OSPO?15:37 - What are the key metrics or KPI's for an OSPO?18:34 -  How many open source project does the team contribute to in a year?19:57 - How do you manage contributions across hundreds or even thousands of projects?22:04 - What does being a good open source citizen look like?24:37 - Dealing with complex, sometimes competing points of view, and motivations in open source.28:18 - Role at the Linux Foundation.31:15 - What are some of the big challenges the open source community faces? 33:33 - Are there criteria the LF looks for in projects before getting involved?37:06 - What should we be excited about in the coming years?Checkout our other interviews, clips, and videos: https://l.hosbp.com/YoutubeDon't forget to visit the open-source business community at: https://opensourcebusiness.community/Visit our primary sponsor, Scarf, for tools to help analyze your #opensource growth and adoption: https://about.scarf.sh/Subscribe to the podcast on your favorite app:Spotify: https://l.hosbp.com/SpotifyApple: https://l.hosbp.com/AppleGoogle: https://l.hosbp.com/GoogleBuzzsprout: https://l.hosbp.com/Buzzsprout

Guest Ana Jiménez Santamaría | Samson Goddy Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Richard is at the State of Open Con 2023 UK in London, and he's excited to have his first ever in-person podcasts. Today, he has two guests joining him. His first guest is Ana Jiménez Santamaría, who's working as the TODO Group OSPO Program Manager at The Linux Foundation. We'll find out about Ana's talk at this event, everything she's been doing for the past few months as the OSPO Program Manager, what's going on with the regional working groups, what OSPOlogy is, and how the TODO Group works. His next guest is Samson Goddy, a software engineer, open source advocate, Co-founder of Open Source Community Africa (OSCA), and on the Open Source Collective Board. Samson gives us the details about OSCA and the OSCA Fest 2023 coming up in June, that he expects to have a lot of people attending. He also shares a great project called Chakra UI, created by a Nigerian maintainer, as well as a collection of open source projects on GitHub created by Nigerians. We'll hear about his talk, his favorite sessions, and how he views software sustainability. Enjoy these great discussions and hit the download button now! [00:00:54] Ana went to FOSDEM for the third time, and she tells us what her main takeaway was after being there, and the talk she enjoyed the most called, Open Design. [00:03:00] Since Ana is an OSPO Program Manager she does a lot in terms of output, so we'll find out what she's been doing for the past few months. [00:05:15] We hear about the regional working groups, for example the Japanese regional working group, and Ana tells us about some groups in Europe. [00:07:45] What is OSPOlogy? [00:09:03] Ana explains how the TODO Groups work and how OSPOlogy fits within a larger question of open source sustainability. [00:11:45] Richard wonders how they judge inauthentic participation in OSPO's, and do they ever have any actions what they can say this isn't what we want. [00:15:39] We hear about Ana's talk at State of Open Con UK, how the UK gets involved with TODO and the OSPO, and she shares that she sees a need of creating communities with British participants in the OSPO space. [00:17:54] What is Ana looking forward to in the next few months that she's working on? Also, with all the tech layoffs, she tells us if that has affected the participation in the OSPO. [00:20:50] Find out where you can get involved in the TODO Group and follow Ana on the web. [00:22:05] Richard's next guest joins him and that is Sampson Goddy. He gives us more details about being the co-founder of OSCA, what it is, and info about OSCA Fest 2023. [00:25:26] Richard doesn't see a lot of maintainers of major open source projects coming from Africa or Nigeria, and he wonders if we can change that. Sampson shares there's been a few projects done by Nigerian and African core maintainers, as well as a collection of open source projects created by Nigerians on GitHub. [00:29:06] A tough question is asked about there being a lot of racist and colonialist attitudes towards Nigeria and hard to deal with. Is there anything that corporations or communities of tech people can do to help OSCA and what would the support look like? [00:31:06] Sampson talks about other movements in countries that are not in Nigeria. [00:33:32] How does Sampson view software sustainability? [00:35:10] We hear what Sampson's favorite sessions have been in the sustain mini events with OSCA and what his talk is about. [00:36:27] Find out where you can learn more about OSCA and the festival coming up, and where you can follow him on the web. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ana Jiménez Santamaría Twitter (https://twitter.com/anajsana95?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ana Jiménez Santamaría LinkedIn (https://es.linkedin.com/in/ana-jim%C3%A9nez-santamar%C3%ADa/en) OSPOlogy (https://github.com/todogroup/ospology) The Linux Foundation (https://www.linuxfoundation.org/) TODO Group Community (https://todogroup.org/community/) Samson Goddy GitHub (https://github.com/readme/stories/samson-goddy) Samson Goddy Twitter (https://twitter.com/Samson_Goddy?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Samson Goddy Website (https://samsongoddy.com/) Samson Goddy LinkedIn (https://ng.linkedin.com/in/samsongoddy) Open Source Community Africa (OSCA) (https://oscafrica.org/) Open Source Community Africa Festival (https://festival.oscafrica.org/) Open Source Community Africa Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/oscafrica/) Open Source Community Africa Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/opensourcecommunityafrica/) Open Source Collective (https://www.oscollective.org/) Chakra UI (https://chakra-ui.com/) Made in Africa Collection-GitHub (https://github.com/collections/made-in-africa) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Ana Jiménez Santamaría and Samson Goddy.

Guest Ruth Cheesley | Mike Nolan Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Richard is at the State of Open Con 2023 UK in London, and he's excited to have his first ever in-person podcast. Today, he has two guests joining him that have previously been on this podcast. His first guest is Ruth Cheesley, who's the Project Lead at Mautic. Ruth tells us about Mautic and what her job entails. Also, since she attended FOSDEM '23 right before this, we'll find out a little more about that event, as well as what she's looking forward to at State of Open Con 2023. Richard's next guest is Mike Nolan, who's a Software Engineer and open source Community Strategy Consultant helping run Open@RIT as the Associate Director, and he's the Director and Founding Member of the Federation of Humanitarian Technologists. Mike tells us why he's at State of Open Con representing RIT and what he'll be speaking about at his session, and we'll find out what separates an OSPO at a university from an OSPO in the industry. Download this episode to hear more! [00:01:19] Ruth tells us about her role at Mautic and what her recurring tasks are throughout the week. [00:05:24] We learn how Ruth sets up the community engagement in the Mautic Slack and how she uses Common Room. [00:08:05] Find out Ruth's journey of getting to where she is today. [00:09:56] In case you missed FOSDEM ‘23, Ruth fills us in on how fantastic it was this year because she was there. [00:11:56] What is Ruth looking forward to at State of Open? [00:14:56] Find out where you can follow Ruth online. [00:16:12] Mike Nolan joins Richard and we find out why he's at State of Open, and why Rochester Institute of Technology needs to be represented at this conference. [00:18:52] Mike explains what separates an OSPO at a university from an OSPO in the industry. [00:24:10] What does Mike do to help Steve Jacobs make everything happens at RIT? [00:27:27] Mike details how they utilize the students at RIT, not just as an effort of instruction, but as an effort of moving forward with his own OSPO roles. [00:30:18] Mike submitted a proposal for a session at State of Open called, “Entering the OSPO Winter,” and he tells us what he means by winter and what the session is going to be about. [00:32:30] Find out where you can follow Mike online, and he tells us about a great place in England to visit for wild camping. Spotlight [00:13:12] Richard's spotlight is the eBird reviewers for London. [00:13:53] Ruth's spotlight is the HappyCow App-The #1 Vegan App. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ruth Cheesley Twitter (https://twitter.com/RCheesley) Ruth Cheesley Mastodon (https://mastodon.online/@rcheesley) Ruth Cheesley GitHub (https://github.com/RCheesley) Sustain Podcast-Episode 138: Ruth Cheesley, the Mautic Project Lead at Acquia, on Building and Growing Open Source Communities (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/cheesley) Mautic (https://www.mautic.org/) Common Room (https://www.commonroom.io/) Monica (https://github.com/monicahq/monica) eBird-London (https://ebird.org/region/GB-ENG-LND) HappyCow (https://www.happycow.net/mobile) Mike Nolan Twitter (https://twitter.com/__nolski__) Mike Nolan Website (https://nolski.rocks/) Mike Nolan GitHub (https://github.com/nolski) mpnopen@rit.edu-Mike Nolan email (mailto:mpnopen@rit.edu) Sustain Podcast-Episode 69: Humanitarian Open Source with Michael Nolan (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/michael-nolan) Dartmoor National Park (https://www.google.com/search?q=dartmoor%20england%20wild%20camping&oq=dartmoor+england+wild+camping&aqs=chrome..69i57j33i160l2j33i22i29i30i625l7.8234j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&tbs=lf:1,lf_ui:1&tbm=lcl&sxsrf=AJOqlzXQY_KeqMnq0k9MlCtZPmqb9GMi0g:1676671917123&rflfq=1&num=10&rldimm=13183183063051045825&lqi=Ch1kYXJ0bW9vciBlbmdsYW5kIHdpbGQgY2FtcGluZ0iTxQRaJxACEAMYABgBIh1kYXJ0bW9vciBlbmdsYW5kIHdpbGQgY2FtcGluZ5IBDW5hdGlvbmFsX3BhcmuaASNDaFpEU1VoTk1HOW5TMFZKUTBGblNVTkRjVTU2WWt4M0VBRaoBNRABGh8QASIbbm5rdUNPqlWxOubPtmKe3EQCpu4DXWitjGApKhAiDHdpbGQgY2FtcGluZygA4AEA&phdesc=dzrVtlVe9_A&ved=2ahUKEwjImZnQyZ39AhVRmmoFHW-ZBcQQvS56BAgeEAE&sa=X&rlst=f#rlfi=hd:;si:13183183063051045825,l,Ch1kYXJ0bW9vciBlbmdsYW5kIHdpbGQgY2FtcGluZ0iTxQRaJxACEAMYABgBIh1kYXJ0bW9vciBlbmdsYW5kIHdpbGQgY2FtcGluZ5IBDW5hdGlvbmFsX3BhcmuaASNDaFpEU1VoTk1HOW5TMFZKUTBGblNVTkRjVTU2WWt4M0VBRaoBNRABGh8QASIbbm5rdUNPqlWxOubPtmKe3EQCpu4DXWitjGApKhAiDHdpbGQgY2FtcGluZygA4AEA,y,dzrVtlVe9_A;mv:[[50.8219646,-3.6313709999999997],[50.311177400000005,-4.1199287]];tbs:lrf:!1m4!1u3!2m2!3m1!1e1!1m4!1u2!2m2!2m1!1e1!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui:1) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Michael Nolan and Ruth Cheesley.

Guest Ali Nehzat Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Get ready for an exciting guest today as we welcome, Ali Nehzat, who's a Software Engineer with a preference for embedded systems and Founder of thanks.dev. Ali's been around for a while, and he realized that the open source ecosystem needs some help, and his focus is specifically on the OSS funding problem. Today, we'll learn more about Ali's story of why he started thanks.dev, what motivated him, people that inspired him through his journey, and he reveals his mission for OSS developers. But it doesn't stop there! Ali dives into different aspects he's experimenting for funding, he tells us how payouts are supported so developers get paid, and how he's planning on making this more sustainable. Download this episode now to find out more! [00:02:53] We find out the difference between thanks.dev and the other platforms, and Ali tells us his story about being motivated by Brian Carlson from the Node.js community, who's behind node-postgres. [00:08:13] Ali talks about thanks.dev's approach with helping to convince people to give money to open source. [00:11:20] We hear the tools that thanks.dev offers to its engineers to help them figure out how to sell giving back to open source. [00:14:07] After having conversations with OSPO companies, Ali explains how everything is a learning experience currently with thanks.dev, and he states the reason for thanks.dev not getting involved with code of conduct right now and what the mission is. [00:17:51] Licensing landscape is brought up by Ali and the conversations happening around it. [00:20:51] Ali fills us in on the insightful conversations he had with Joel Wasserman who really helped him in his journey, as well as other people, with thanks.dev, as well as some ideas to solve the funding with open source and make sure thanks.dev is sustainable going forward. [00:23:05] As far as projects go, Ali tells us who's he's worked with to get more funding. [00:26:06] Justin wonders if there's any papers Ali's read dealing with the complexities and edge cases, he explains how he would like to publish blog posts he wrote, and the testing and the experiments he's been doing, and the impact Duane O'Brien from Indeed has made. [00:29:28] Richard brings up payment payouts and wonders how Ali is making sure the money actually gets to the developers and that helps the sustainability of those projects. [00:33:50] Ali is currently not getting a salary for this, but he tells us how fundraising through family and friends helped him, and how he's planning to make this sustainable for him. [00:35:37] Find out where you can follow Ali on the web. Quotes [00:03:20] “Currently, thanks.dev is focusing on an experiment if you make it super easy for companies to donate to their dependency trees, what would be the outcome of that?” [00:04:41] “When I got interested in the funding space and in the challenges that open source maintainers face, it was actually all motivated by Brian Carlson in the Node.js community, who's the person behind node-postgres.” [00:06:35] “It's not just funding, it's project management and it's community management. There's a whole array of other problems that can be attacked.” [00:09:12] “When I hit that barrier, the approach I took was to add a line item to my invoices for the OSS ecosystem.” [00:22:02] “The biggest learning is that to solve the funding problem in open source, you have to look at it from the perspective of the marketplace.” [00:23:50] “Then there's a whole cohort of donors on GitHub and Open Collective that are engineering managers that are going to their own organizations and getting donations done and figuring out the motivations and actions behind these people.” [00:26:52] “The input that Duane O'Brien has had on thanks.dev has made such a huge impact.” Spotlight [00:37:32] Justin's spotlight is CodeMirror. [00:38:19] Richard's spotlight is Atom. [00:39:04] Ali's spotlight is Brian Carlson. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Justin Dorfman Twitter (https://twitter.com/jdorfman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ali Nehzat LinkedIn (https://au.linkedin.com/in/ali-nehzat-75428a7) Ali Nehzat Twitter (https://mobile.twitter.com/nehzata) thanks.dev Twitter (https://mobile.twitter.com/thanks_dev) ali@thanks.dev (mailto:ali@thanks.dev) thanks.dev (https://thanks.dev/home) Sustain Podcast-Episode 58: Joel Wasserman on Flossbank and Sustainably Giving Back to Dependencies (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/58) Sustain Podcast-Episode 96: Chad Whitacre and how Sentry is giving $150 to their OSS Dependencies (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/96) Sustain Podcast- 2 episodes featuring guest, Duane O'Brien (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/duane-obrien) Sustain Podcast-2 episodes featuring guest, Nicholas Zakas (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/zakas) CodeMirror (https://codemirror.net/) Atom (https://atom.io/) Brian Carlson-GitHub (https://github.com/brianc) node-postgres (https://github.com/brianc/node-postgres) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Ali Nehzat.

This episode features an interview with Nithya Ruff, Head of Open Source Program Office at Amazon. At Amazon, she drives open source culture and coordination and engagement with external communities. Prior to Amazon, Nithya spearheaded and grew Open Source Program Offices (OSPOs) for Comcast and Western Digital. She has also served as the Director-At-Large on the Linux Foundation Board since 2016, where she works to advance the mission of building sustainable ecosystems that are built on open collaboration.In this episode, Sam and Nithya discuss OSPOs, how to measure success, and the evolution of the data ecosystem.-------------------“I think if we look at what matters to customers, which is innovation, trust, and being a force for change with open source, then we can really deliver on the metrics that the company cares about.” – Nithya Ruff-------------------Episode Timestamps:(04:02): What open source data means to Nithya(06:29): What interested Nithya about open source software(12:34): What Nithya learned at Western Digital and Comcast that she uses now at Amazon(18:23): What Nithya teaches people in OSPO curriculum(22:06): How the open source data ecosystem has evolved in the last decade(27:44): One question Nithya wishes to be asked(30:37): Nithya's advice for folks who want to create an OSPO-------------------Links:LinkedIn - Connect with NithyaTwitter - Follow NithyaOpen Source Law, Policy and PracticeLinkedIn - Connect with AmazonTwitter - Follow AmazonVisit Amazon

Wayfair describes itself as the “the destination for all things home: helping everyone, anywhere create their feeling of home.” It provides an online platform to acquire home furniture, outdoor decor and other furnishings. It also supports its suppliers so they can use the platform to sell their home goods, explained Natali Vlatko, global lead, open source program office (OSPO) and senior software engineering manager, for Wayfair as the featured guest in Detroit during KubeCon + CloudNativeCon North America 2022. “It takes a lot of technical, technical work behind the scenes to kind of get that going,” Vlatko said. This is especially true as Wayfair scales its operations worldwide. The infrastructure must be highly distributed, relying on containerization, microservices, Kubernetes, and especially, open source to get the job done. “We have technologists throughout the world, in North America and throughout Europe as well,”  Vlatko said. “And we want to make sure that we are utilizing cloud native and open source, not just as technologies that fuel our business, but also as the ways that are great for us to work in now.” Open source has served as a “great avenue” for creating and offering technical services, and to accomplish that, Vlatko amassed the requite tallent, she said. Vlatko was able to amass a small team of engineers to focus on platform work, advocacy, community management and internally on compliance with licenses. About five years ago when Vlatko joined Wayfair, the company had yet to go “full tilt into going all cloud native,”  Vlatko said. Wayfair had a hybrid mix of on-premise and cloud infrastructure. After decoupling from a monolith into a microservices architecture “that journey really began where we understood the really great benefits of microservices and got to a point where we thought, ‘okay, this hybrid model for us actually would benefit our microservices being fully in the cloud,” Vlatko said. In late 2020, Wayfair had made the decision to “get out of the data centers” and shift operations to the cloud, which was completed in October, Vlatko said.  The company culture is such that engineers have room to experiment without major fear of failure by doing a lot of development work in a sandbox environment. “We've been able to create production environments that are close to our production environments so that experimentation in sandboxes can occur. Folks can learn as they go without actually fearing failure or fearing a mistake,”  Vlatko said. “So, I think experimentation is a really important aspect of our own learning and growth for cloud native. Also, coming to great events like KubeCon + CloudNativeCon and other events [has been helpful]. We're hearing from other companies who've done the same journey and process and are learning from the use cases.”

Guest Amanda Brock Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman | Ben Nickolls Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we have an amazing guest and she's been on this podcast before. Joining us is Amanda Brock, who's the CEO of OpenUK, which is an industry organization about the business of open technology. She's also a Board Member, keynote speaker, and author, with a new book coming out soon called, Open Source Law, Policy and Practice, that we'll hear all about today. We'll also be learning more about OpenUK and the policy work they do, Amanda tells us about the All Things Open (ATO) tech conference where she'll be launching her book with some incredible panelists, and we hear some goals from Amanda for an event she'll be attending to create a broader engagement across UK government, where they'll focus on security, technical issues, and security policy issues. Go ahead and download this episode now! [00:01:27] Amanda tells us about OpenUK, the difference between OpenUK and the Software Sustainability Institute (SSI), and the policy work OpenUK does. [00:04:37] We learn if OpenUk's mission has changed since Brexit, now that the UK is more of an independent body as a national group and how that's influenced how we think about tech in Britain. [00:07:13] Amanda tells us all about her book coming out called, Open Source Law, Policy and Practice, that includes several authors, and the launch of her book at ATO. [00:12:06] One of the chapters in Amanda's book is on sustainability and open source and since it's relevant to this podcast Amanda explains more about this chapter. [00:13:52] Amanda explains some goals they have for the meeting that's happening on the17th of October called, “Open Source Software: Infrastructure Curation and Security, Thought Leadership Event.” [00:18:28] Ben asks Amanda if she thinks anything is going to happen within the government from now until February and what she thinks of the government's response in the US with the executive order around expenditure on open source in government departments and guidance around a software bill of materials and better understanding of what components are in software that's using governments. [00:22:00] Richard wonders if there's been a conversation about what happens if one part of the dependency stack doesn't want to be included or bother with having a SBOM, dealing with the government, and refuses to do any work. [00:35:10] We hear a mad insurance scheme Amanda had a long time ago that's she's going to get some people to revisit. [00:37:02] Find out where to follow Amanda and OpenUK online. Quotes [00:17:13] “I think it's really important that governments also see the level of engagement across our communities as strong, and that we are largely united at least body, that wants to see them understand how they do a much better job of curating open source software and ensuring that when they're using it, they're giving back both in terms of contribution and economic contribution.” [00:20:41] “In the US, the survey showed over 70% of organizations that are using SBOMs now.” [00:21:45] “You should not be taking on liability for the open source code. You should be taking on liability for the work you're paid to do.” [00:24:02] “Coding to me is a freedom of speech.” [00:24:27] “My personal view is they'll be public private enterprises or initiatives, and they will hold code that is sanitized or curated for usage in the public sector.” [00:24:38] “I think we'll see governments wanting that and it's not an OSPO, it's a hybrid. It's somewhere between a foundation and an OSPO.” [00:27:40] “Chainguard started creating their own Docker images with their own version of Nginx and Linux, and I think we're going to see that trend continue.” [00:28:29] “What we don't want is for governments to get everything from companies, because if they do, they're going to end up back in a situation of vendor lock-in.” [00:35:58] “In the US at one time, you couldn't buy insurance around open source because it was too unknown. I think there's going to be a big space there where we can also manage some of this risk and some of the government money can go into that too and help protect the bigger picture.” Spotlight [00:37:58] Justin's spotlight is opensauced.pizza founded by Brian Douglas. [00:38:30] Ben's spotlight is Stellarium 1.0. [00:39:25] Richard's spotlight is Collins Bird Guide and the app. [00:40:39] Amanda's spotlight is Eddie Jaoude, a GitHub All-Star. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Justin Dorfman Twitter (https://twitter.com/jdorfman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ben Nickolls Twitter (https://twitter.com/BenJam?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Amanda Brock-OpenUK (https://openuk.uk/profiles/amanda-brock/) Amanda Brock Twitter (https://twitter.com/amandabrockuk) Amanda Brock LinkedIn (https://uk.linkedin.com/in/amandabrocktech?trk=people-guest_people_search-card) OpenUK (https://openuk.uk/) OpenUK Twitter (https://twitter.com/openuk_uk) OpenUK LinkedIn (https://uk.linkedin.com/company/openuktechnology) All Things Open Twitter (https://twitter.com/AllThingsOpen) All Things Open-2022 (https://2022.allthingsopen.org/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 49: What OpenUK does with Amanda Brock & Andrew Katz (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/49) Open Source Law, Policy, and Practice by Amanda Brock (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/open-source-law-policy-and-practice-9780198862345?cc=gb&lang=en&) Neil Chue Hong (https://www.software.ac.uk/about/staff/person/neil-chue-hong) Software Sustainability Institute (https://www.software.ac.uk/) OpenForum Europe (https://openforumeurope.org/) Ecosyste.ms (https://ecosyste.ms/) OpenSauced (https://opensauced.pizza/) Stellarium 1.0 (https://stellarium.org/release/2022/10/01/stellarium-1.0.html) Collins Bird Guide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_Bird_Guide) Collins Bird Guide App (https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/collins-bird-guide-ultimate/id868827305) Eddie Jaoude Twitter (https://twitter.com/eddiejaoude?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Eddie Jaoude GitHub (https://github.com/eddiejaoude) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Amanda Brock.

The whole world uses open source, but as we've learned from the Log4j debacle, “free” software isn't really free. Organizations and their customers pay for it when projects aren't frequently updated and maintained. How can we support open source project maintainers — and how can we decide which projects are worth the time and effort to maintain? “A lot of people pick up open source projects, and use them in their products and in their companies without really thinking about whether or not that project is likely to be successful over the long term,” Dawn Foster, director of open source community strategy at VMware's open source program office (OSPO), told The New Stack's audience during this On the Road edition of The New Stack's Makers podcast. In this conversation recorded at Open Source Summit Europe in Dublin, Ireland, Foster elaborated on the human cost of keeping open source software maintained, improved and secure —  and how such projects can be sustained over the long term. The conversation, sponsored by Amazon Web Services, was hosted by Heather Joslyn, features editor at The New Stack. Assessing Project Health: the ‘Lottery Factor' One of the first ways to evaluate the health of an open source project, Foster said, is the “lottery factor”: “It's basically if one of your key maintainers for a project won the lottery, retired on a beach tomorrow, could the project continue to be successful?” “And if you have enough maintainers and you have the work spread out over enough people, then yes. But if you're a single maintainer project and that maintainer retires, there might not be anybody left to pick it up.” Foster is on the governing board for an project called Community Health Analytics Open Source Software — CHAOSS, to its friends — that aims to provide some reliable metrics to judge the health of an open source initiative. The metrics CHAOSS is developing, she said, “help you understand where your project is healthy and where it isn't, so that you can decide what changes you need to make within your project to make it better.” CHAOSS uses tooling like Augur and GrimoireLab to help get notifications and analytics on project health. And it's friendly to newcomers, Foster said. “We spend...a lot of time just defining metrics, which means working in a Google Doc and thinking about all of the different ways you might possibly measure something — something like, are you getting a diverse set of contributors into your project from different organizations, for example.” Paying Maintainers, Onboarding Newbies It's important to pay open source maintainers in order to help sustain projects, she said. “The people that are being paid to do it are going to have a lot more time to devote to these open source projects. So they're going to tend to be a little bit more reliable just because they're they're going to have a certain amount of time that's devoted to contributing to these projects.” Not only does paying people help keep vital projects going, but it also helps increase the diversity of contributors, “because you by paying people salaries to do this work in open source, you get people who wouldn't naturally have time to do that. “So in a lot of cases, this is women who have extra childcare responsibilities. This is people from underrepresented backgrounds who have other commitments outside of work,” Foster said. “But by allowing them to do that within their work time, you not only get healthier, longer sustaining open source projects, you get more diverse contributions.” The community can also help bring in new contributors by providing solid documentation and easy onboarding for newcomers, she said. “If people don't know how to build your software, or how to get a development environment up and running, they're not going to be able to contribute to the project.” And showing people how to contribute properly can help alleviate the issue of burnout for project maintainers, Foster said:  “Any random person can file issues and bug maintainers all day, in ways that are not productive. And, you know, we end up with maintainer burnout...because we just don't have enough maintainers," said Foster. “Getting new people into these projects and participating in ways that are eventually reducing the load on these horribly overworked maintainers is a good thing.” Listen or watch this episode to learn more about maintaining open source sustainability.

Guest Daniel S. Katz Panelists Richard Littauer | Ben Nickolls | Amanda Casari Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We are very excited to have as our guest Daniel S. Katz, who's Chief Scientist at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications (NCSA), Research Associate Professor in Computer Science, Electrical and Computer Engineering, and the School of Information Sciences at the University of Illinois Urbana-Champaign. He's also a Better Scientific Software (BSSw) Fellow and is one of the founding editors and the current Associate Editor-in-Chief of The Journal of Open Source Software. His interest is in cyber infrastructure, advanced cyber infrastructure, and solving problems at scale, but he's also interested in policy issues, citation, and credit mechanisms. Today, Dan is joining us to talk about the Research Software Alliance (ReSA), how academia has changed over the years, and why funding is necessary for these projects. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out more! [00:04:39] Dan explains what the Research Software Alliance is. [00:08:09] We find out the difference between the ReSA and URSSI communities. [00:11:34] Richard wonders why funding is necessary for all these projects and how do we diversify our funding to make sure that it's not just Sloan that does this. [00:17:40] Ben asks if Dan thinks the conversation within academia and within research institutions is more mature and developed or more trustful compared to what's happening in commercial industry right now. [00:22:00] We find out why research software is fundamentally different from corporate software from the makers perspective, and Dan shares with us a project he's working on called Parsl. [00:26:25] Amanda brings up the Journal of Open Source Software and asks Dan if he thinks that software is viewed yet as a first class research project online with a published paper, and if not, what are the barriers and what things need to change in the academia industry. [00:30:38] If you're a Research Software Engineer, Software Engineer, Engineer, or at companies or academies, find out how you can get involved in ReSA. Dan also tells us more about the importance of funding. [00:34:03] Find out the best places you can follow Dan online. Spotlight [00:34:45] Ben's spotlight is his favorite piece of research work called FITS. [00:35:24] Amanda's spotlight is a paper she read titled, “Did You Miss My Comment or What?” Understanding Toxicity in Open Source Discussions [00:36:37] Richard's spotlight is a paper he read titled, “How many genera of Stercorariidae are there?” [00:37:29] Dan's spotlight is the book, Radical Candor by Kim Scott. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ben Nickolls Twitter (https://twitter.com/BenJam?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Amanda Casari Twitter (https://twitter.com/amcasari?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Daniel S. Katz Twitter (https://twitter.com/danielskatz) Daniel S. Katz LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielskatz) FAIR Principles (https://www.go-fair.org/fair-principles/) RDA-Research Data Alliance (https://www.rd-alliance.org/) FORCE11-The Future of Research Communications and e-Scholarship (https://force11.org/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 88 and Episode 79 with Leah Silen (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/leah-silen) The Sloan Foundation Technology program announces over $5M in new grants (https://mailchi.mp/4d3c75cb4f9a/sloan-tech-program-july2022?e=9293356a9c) Research Software Alliance (https://www.researchsoft.org/) URSSI (https://urssi.us/) Karthik Ram-UC Berkeley (https://ram.berkeley.edu/) FAIR for Research Software (FAIR4RS) Principles (https://doi.org/10.15497/RDA00068) A survey of the state of the practice for research software in the United States (PeerJ Computer Science) (https://doi.org/10.7717/peerj-cs.963) OSPO++ (https://ospoplusplus.com/) Open Work in Academia Summit-RIT (https://www.rit.edu/openworksummit/) Software Sustainability Institute (http://software.ac.uk/) Parsl (https://parsl-project.org/) ROpenSci (https://ropensci.org/) The Journal of Open Source Software (https://joss.theoj.org/) NCSA Post-doc posting on policy for sustainable code in research software (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/t/ncsa-post-doc-posting-on-policy-for-sustainable-code-in-research-software/1079) CIG-Computational Infrastructure for Geodynamics (http://geoweb.cse.ucdavis.edu/cig/about/) FITS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FITS) “Did You Miss My Comment or What? Understanding Toxicity in Open-Source Discussions (https://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/Web/People/ckaestne/pdf/icse22_toxicity.pdf) How many genera of Stercorariidae are there? (Springer Link) (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03544345) Radical Candor by Kim Scott (https://www.radicalcandor.com/the-book/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Daniel S. Katz.

Guest Cornelius Schumacher Panelists Richard Littauer | Ben Nickolls Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We're very excited to have as our guest, Cornelius Schumacher, who works as the Open Source Steward at DB Systel, helping teams to successfully use and contribute to open source. Today, we'll have discussions with Cornelius about what it means to be an Open Source Steward at DB Systel, what it means for the world of open source, and how he brings his extended history of working with KDE and other open source communities into this position. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more! [00:02:44] Cornelius tells us what he does as an Open Source Steward at DB Systel, how big DB Systel is, and how many people work under him. [00:07:18] Find out if Cornelius sees himself as being a civil servant or as being more enterprise based in terms of how his OSPO is situated compared to other OSPOs. [00:08:53] We learn how Cornelius's journey and experience has been with license compliance over the last three years. [00:11:26] Ben asks Cornelius if there's been a conversation about what's been happening in the U.S. with the Biden administration's security of open source and the supply chain security concept, and Richard wonders if the German Sustainable Open Source Fund is also included in that discussion. [00:14:07] We hear what environmental sustainability looks like for Cornelius. [00:20:12] Cornelius fills us in on the German group, the report they made, and how they think about autonomy. [00:21:28] We learn more about how Cornelius is interfacing with projects to make them more autonomous and sustainable, and how he's helping the open source community at large through his work at Deutsche Bahn. [00:25:19] Richard brings up a blog post Cornelius wrote, and Cornelius talks more about how his journey has evolved. [00:30:38] Cornelius shares advice on what he would say if someone wanted to work in open source but they don't have the free time. [00:33:18] Find out where you follow Cornelius and his work online. Quotes [00:15:19] “Still, software has a big influence on energy consumption, but also on how systems are designed, what you can do with them, and how much control you have.” [00:28:24] “I think we should pay people properly.” [00:28:53] “Exploiting people is not sustainable.” Spotlight [00:34:54] Ben's spotlight is Flipper Zero. [00:35:45] Richard's spotlight is Erasmus+. [00:36:29] Cornelius's spotlight is NEdit. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) Sustain Podcast (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ben Nickolls Twitter (https://twitter.com/BenJam?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Cornelius Schumacher Twitter (https://twitter.com/cschum) Cornelius Schumacher LinkedIn (https://de.linkedin.com/in/cschum) Cornelius Schumacher Blog (https://blog.cornelius-schumacher.de/) Cornelius Schumacher GitHub (https://github.com/cornelius) Cornelius Schumacher Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Schumacher) DB Systel (https://www.dbsystel.de/dbsystel-en?) Deutsche Bahn accelerates climate neutral target (Global Railway Review) (https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/125223/deutsche-bahn-accelerates-climate-neutral-target/) First Ever Eco-Certified Computer Program: KDE's Popular PDF Reader Okular (https://eco.kde.org/blog/2022-03-16-press-release-okular-blue-angel/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 82: Steve Helvie and the Open Compute Project (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/82) Sustain Podcast-Episode 49: What OpenUK Does with Amanda Brock & Andrew Katz (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/49) Open Source Guide: Best Practices for Open Source Software Version 3.0 (bitkom) (https://www.bitkom.org/Bitkom/Publikationen/Open-Source-Leitfaden-Praxisempfehlungen-fuer-Open-Source-Software-Version-30) Don't sell free software cheap by Cornelius Schumacher (https://blog.cornelius-schumacher.de/2013/05/dont-sell-free-software-cheap.html) Flipper Zero-Kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/flipper-devices/flipper-zero-tamagochi-for-hackers) Erasmus+ (https://erasmus-plus.ec.europa.eu/opportunities/opportunities-for-individualsers) NEdit (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEdit) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Cornelius Schumacher.

In this episode of the podcast, Grizz interviews Ana Jiménez Santamaría, OSPO Program Manager for the TODO Group. This is the beginning of our series on Open Source in Finance 101. Ana and Grizz talk about what OSPOs (Open Source Program Offices) are, when and why an organization would need one, and the benefits of having an OSPO for an organization that is focused on moving up the open source readiness maturity curve. Ana's Info | https://www.linkedin.com/in/ana-jim%C3%A9nez-santamar%C3%ADa/ Ana's OSFF London Talk | https://resources.finos.org/znglist/osff-london-2022-video-recordings/?c=cG9zdDoxNzIy CFP - submit your talks for OSFF NYC by September 12: https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-finance-forum-new-york/program/cfp/ Register - Early bird ends September 14 (Members attend for free, but register early to be entered to win FINOS swag): https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-finance-forum-new-york/register/ OSFF London Videos & Pics: https://resources.finos.org/znglist/osff-london-2022-video-recordings/?c=cG9zdDo5OTA2MjA= Grizz's Info | https://www.linkedin.com/in/aarongriswold/ | grizz@finos.org ►► Visit FINOS www.finos.org

Guest Ana Jiménez Santamaría Panelists Richard Littauer | Justin Dorfman Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Today, we have joining us as our guest, Ana Jiménez Santamaría, who's the TODO Group OSPO Program Manager. Our conversations bring us to finding out how Ana got into open source, the history of the TODO Group, and she goes in depth about the OSPO Mind Map Project she's working on and how you can contribute to it. Ana talks about some OSPO workshops coming up, she shares a vision for how OSPOs interact with the open source community, and what she's doing with the OSPOlogy series. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out more! [00:02:04] Ana unfolds how she got into open source. [00:04:31] We learn the history of the TODO Group and the context within the greater Linux Foundation ecosystem. [00:08:43] Ana details the OSPO Mind Map Project. [00:12:35] How does Ana deal with the needs of an OSPO? [00:15:37] Find out how you can contribute to the Mind Map. [00:18:18] There's some OSPOs workshops coming up encouraging people to collaborate more, and Ana tells us more about them. [00:21:35] Ana explains adopting open source faster in the organizations in a healthier way. [00:24:48] We hear some ideas from Ana on how to engage with communities in a way that honors the original intent of the people who are working on those projects. [00:26:23] Justin asks Ana if Duane O'Brien from Indeed was involved in the talks with Spotify. [00:27:03] Ana shares a near future vision for how OSPOs interact with the open source community. [00:28:14] Richard asks if Ana has any thoughts on the long game for how we invest sustainably in our digital commons which involves open source. [00:30:23] We learn what Ana's doing at OSPOlogy and TODO to help the third world. [00:33:58] Find out where you can follow Ana on the internet. Quotes [00:13:20] “Until compliance is covered, the organization cannot move forward.” [00:22:51] “What OSPOs are for is to put a strategy and alignment on top of all the open source efforts and to start building a healthy open source culture within the organizations to take real actions and start contributing back to the community.” [00:27:25] “If you don't have a strategy on top of the open source efforts, if you're just doing open source ad hoc, the organizations might be harming the open source ecosystem.” Spotlight [00:34:34] Justin's spotlights are TypeScript ESLint and Learning TypeScript by Josh Goldberg. [00:35:03] Richard's spotlight is Ruy Adorno (https://twitter.com/ruyadorno), an awesome developer. [00:35:26] Ana's spotlight is GrimoireLab from CHAOSS Project, and the tool Perceval. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Justin Dorfman Twitter (https://twitter.com/jdorfman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ana Jiménez Santamaría Twitter (https://twitter.com/anajsana95?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ana Jiménez Santamaría LinkedIn (https://es.linkedin.com/in/ana-jim%C3%A9nez-santamar%C3%ADa/en) Kimetsu No Yaiba Opening 1-Demon Slayer Gurenge Full Band Cover (YouTube) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAe60P2iOII) Bitergia (https://bitergia.com/) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) TODO Group (https://todogroup.org/) TODO Group Associates (https://todogroup.org/associates/) A New Framework for In-Person OSPO Workshops: TODO Group Seeks Collaborators (https://todogroup.org/blog/new-framework-in-person-ospo-workshops/) OSPO ++ (https://ospoplusplus.com/) OSPO Zone (https://ospo.zone/) OSPO Mind Map-TODO Group (https://ospomindmap.todogroup.org/) OSPOlogy: The Study of OSPOs (TODO Group) (https://github.com/todogroup/ospology/) TODO (OSPO) Group-GitHub (https://github.com/todogroup?type=source) OSPO Mind Map Project-GitHub (https://github.com/todogroup/ospology/tree/main/ospo-mindmap) Sustain Podcast-Episode 104: Duane O'Brien and Mandy Grover on Investing in Open Source: The FOSS Contributor Fund (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/104) TypeScript ESLint (https://typescript-eslint.io/) [Learning TypeScript: Enhance Your Web Development Skills Using Type-Safe JavaScript by Josh Goldberg](https://www.amazon.com/Learning-TypeScript-Development-Type-Safe-JavaScript/dp/1098110331/ref=ascdf1098110331/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=564700895175&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6264234166921415025&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010767&hvtargid=pla-1649289693001&psc=1) Ruy Adorno Twitter (https://twitter.com/ruyadorno) GrimoireLab (https://chaoss.community/software/#user-content-grimoirelab) Perceval (https://github.com/chaoss/grimoirelab-perceval) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Ana Jiménez Santamaría.

Guest Per Ploug Krogslund Panelists Richard Littauer | Ben Nickolls Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. Our guest today is Per Ploug Krogslund, who's the Open Source Tech Lead at Spotify. He's with us to talk in-depth about the FOSS Fund he's setting up with Spotify, to pay maintainers of independent projects and give back to open source developers. Go ahead and download this episode now to hear more! [00:01:30] Per tells us his background, how he got involved with Spotify and open source, and he tells us about the OSPO office at Spotify. [00:05:46] Ben wonders how the conversation evolved in Spotify about how an OSPO would work there and how he got to be the one person that's representing the OSPO. [00:09:47] Per explains the FOSS Fund he's setting up to give back to open source. [00:11:50] Richard wonders what Per is doing to make sure that the participation is authentic and aligns to the values of the people who are in those projects beforehand so that he doesn't come off as an extractive corporate company. [00:14:22] What is Per doing to make sure there's enough governance set up where the money is being used with the project to make developer's lives happy? [00:15:55] Find out how people working at Spotify are involved in the process of deciding who's going to receive what they're supposed to receive, and Per tells us how he's thinking about next year looking at the success of the program he's setting up this year. [00:21:14] When Per is having conversations in Spotify about what the FOSS Funds look like in terms of money, we find out if there's any other investments that are competing alongside that. Also, is InnerSource a thing inside Spotify? [00:24:41] Per explains what's going on with diversity of projects right now and if there's any thoughts deeper down the dependency stack and helping projects. [00:28:02] Richard wonders if Per's supporting projects which go towards Spotify's larger goals in the long run of different markets and different technologies ensuring faster transmission, and if he's thinking about the dependencies which he will have in the future and supporting those ecosystems as opposed to individual projects. [00:32:56] In terms of degrowth and the possibility of having a sustainable Spotify, Richard asks Per's thoughts on if there's any room to talk about open source policy. Ben shares his thoughts on a possible direction to take with a cooperative community based project. [00:39:20] Find out where you follow Per on the web. Quotes [00:10:06] “We're trying to just have a fair relationship with the people we depend on.” Spotlight [00:39:50] Ben's spotlight is fs Timer. [00:40:35] Richard's spotlight is Jim Kang and his project, GODTRIBUTES. [00:41:24] Per's spotlight is a Spotify project, Basic Pitch. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt) Ben Nickolls Twitter (https://twitter.com/benjam?lang=en) Per Ploug Twitter (https://twitter.com/pploug) Per Ploug LinkedIn (https://de.linkedin.com/in/per-ploug-krogslund) Spotify for Developers (https://spotify.github.io/) Spotify (https://www.spotify.com/us/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 71: Hong Phuc Dang, founder of FOSSAsia, on how to build communities across boundaries (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/guests/hong-phuc-dang) Sustain Podcast-Episode 121: FOSS Backstage 2022 with Cornelius Schumacher, Yadira Sánchez Benítez & Thomas Fricke (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/121) Sustain Podcast-Episode 120: FOSS Backstage 2022 with Rich Bowen & Paul Berschick (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/120) Sustain Podcast-Episode 119: FOSS Backstage 2022 with Ana Jiménez Santamaría and McCoy Smith (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/119) Sustain Podcast-Episode 118: FOSS Backstage 2022 with Florian Gilcher & Silona Bonewald (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/118) Spotify Says It Paid $7 Billion In Royalties In 2021 Amid Claims Of Low Pay From Artists (Forbes) (https://www.forbes.com/sites/marisadellatto/2022/03/24/spotify-says-it-paid-7-billion-in-royalties-in-2021-amid-claims-of-low-pay-from-artists/?sh=5543d6dda0db) Announcing the Spotify FOSS Fund (Spotify R&D) (https://engineering.atspotify.com/2022/04/announcing-the-spotify-foss-fund/) fs Timer (http://fstimer.org/) Jim Kang Website (https://jimkang.com/) GODTRIBUTES (https://smidgeo.com/bots/godtributes/) Basic Pitch (https://basicpitch.spotify.com/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Per Ploug Krogslund.

In this episode of the podcast, Grizz sits down with Chris Howard, Lead Open Source Program (OSPO) Manager at EPAM Systems to talk about his talk at the FINOS Open Source in Finance Forum (OSFF) on July 13th in London talking about "Leveraging your Organization's OS Engagements to Recruit and Retain". Plus, we look at other open source benefits seen from the OSPO level, and opportunities at all levels of the financial / technical organization. Chris' OSFF Talk - July 13 London: https://sched.co/12VZT Twitter: https://twitter.com/chris_howard & EPAM Systems: https://twitter.com/EPAMSystems LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrishowarduk/ OSFF REGISTRATION IS OPEN FOR LONDON (13 JULY 22) (FINOS Members attend for FREEEEEE.... - osff@finos.org for more details) Open Source in Finance Forum London - https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-finance-forum/ OSFF New York Call for Proposals - https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-finance-forum-new-york/program/cfp/ Grizz's Info | https://www.linkedin.com/in/aarongriswold/ | grizz@finos.org ►► Visit FINOS www.finos.org ►► Get In Touch: info@finos.org

Guest Astor Nummelin Carlberg Panelists Richard Littauer | Amanda Casari | Ben Nickolls Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. On this episode, we have joining us, Astor Nummelin Carlberg, who's the Executive Director of OpenForum Europe. OFE works with open technologies and public policy. Today, Astor goes in depth about a report he co-authored with another team of economists, and we also find out Astor's thoughts on what we should do to make open source more sustainable, what his team at OFE does in terms of policy work, and he shares the challenges to everyone involved in the open source ecosystem and how you can engage in them. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn more! [00:01:11] Astor explains what OFE is. [00:04:20] We hear about a report that came out and how the economic impact of open source has been. [00:08:58] In thinking about policies and recommendations, Amanda wonders what information would help about understanding open source from a systems level that Astor hasn't been able to access but would help with making better policy decisions. [00:12:19] Astor gives us his perspective on how we can best use OSPOs and OSPO networks to come together to release more data. [00:17:38] We hear Astor's thoughts on the tension between working in public, protecting individual's privacy, and the ability to work in public and not be a target of harassment, as well as working openly and allowing information to be transparent for people who are making large scale decisions. [00:20:18] Now that OFE has released this report, Richard wonders what we should do to make open source more sustainable and how can we do that. Astor also tells us the budget was secured for the Centre for Digital Sovereignty in Germany. [00:24:41] Astor tells us about his team and what they do in terms of policy work. [00:31:35] Ben wonders how we can enable that conversation with the government to happen more authentically and representatively. [00:34:00] Find out where you can follow Astor and OFE online. Quotes [00:07:15] “Open source is a good investment.” [00:07:26] “Open source is a greenfield for policy makers to figure out how to engage with this ecosystem.” [00:11:06] “Research and data access to open source is still severely underfunded.” [00:25:29] “The classic Cathedral and Bazaar metaphor works with policy very well.” Spotlight [00:35:44] Amanda's spotlight is a paper recently published by colleagues of hers called, “The penumbra of open source.” [00:36:27] Ben's spotlight is The Linux Foundation report on open source software security that was recently published. [00:37:01] Richard's spotlights are two films he watched: Grandma and Blue Bayou. [00:37:29] Astor's spotlights are Find Shelter and Frank Nagle's new article in Brookings. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Amanda Casari Twitter (https://twitter.com/amcasari?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ben Nickolls Twitter (https://twitter.com/BenJam?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Astor Nummelin Carlberg Twitter (https://twitter.com/astornc) Astor Nummelin Carlberg LinkedIn (https://be.linkedin.com/in/astor-nummelin-carlberg) OpenForum Europe (https://openforumeurope.org/) The Impact of Open Source Software and Hardware on Technological Independence, Competitiveness and Innovation in the EU Economy (Open Research Community) (https://openresearch.community/documents/knut-blind-et-al-the-impact-of-open-source-software-and-hardware-on-technological-independence-competitiveness-and-innovation-in-the-eu-economy-luxembourg-publications-office-of-the-european-union-2021) Prof. Dr. Knut Blind-Fraunhofer ISI (https://www.isi.fraunhofer.de/en/competence-center/politik-gesellschaft/mitarbeiter/blind.html) Sovereign Tech Fund (https://sovereigntechfund.de/en) Open Source Observatory (OSOR) Joinup (https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-source-observatory-osor/news/centre-digital-sovereignty) Open Source Community List (https://groups.google.com/a/openforumeurope.org/g/foss-community) The Cathedral and the Bazaar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar) Introducing Open Source Insights data in BigQuery to help secure software supply chains (https://cloud.google.com/blog/products/identity-security/announcing-open-source-insights-data-in-bigquery) The penumbra of open source: projects outside of centralized platforms are longer maintained, more academic and more collaborative (Springer Open) (https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-022-00345-7) The Linux Foundation and Open Source Software Security Foundation (OpenSSF) Gather Industry and Government Leaders for Open Source Software Security Summit II (https://epjdatascience.springeropen.com/articles/10.1140/epjds/s13688-022-00345-7) Grandma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandma_(film)) Blue Bayou (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Bayou_(film)) Find Shelter-Accommodation for Ukrainians in France (https://www.find-shelter.com/) Strengthening digital infrastructure: A policy agenda for free and open source software (Brookings) (https://www.brookings.edu/research/strengthening-digital-infrastructure-a-policy-agenda-for-free-and-open-source-software/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Astor Nummelin Carlberg.

Guests Ana Jiménez Santamaría | McCoy Smith Panelist Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! On this episode, Richard is at the FOSS Backstage 2022 that is held in Berlin every year. This conference focuses on open source sustainability. He had the opportunity to interview people who were there in-person and talk about open source software sustainability, what they hope to find in FOSS Backstage, the talks they did, and a bunch of other good stuff. Our first guest is Ana Jiménez Santamaría, who is the OSPO Program Manager at the TODO Group, a Linux Foundation project. We also have another guest, McCoy Smith, who is the Founding Attorney of Lex Pan Law, where he specializes in patents, copyrights, and free and open source licensing. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out much more! [00:01:48] Ana tells us what she does at The Linux Foundation. She also explains more about the TODO Group, how the memberships are structured, what TODO offers, and what she offers as an OSPO manager there. [00:05:23] Ana gave a talk and was part of a panel at FOSS Backstage and she shares her perspective on InnerSource versus Open Source and what TODO does with InnerSource. [00:09:46] Richard asks Ana what she thinks is the right way for corporations to give back, what the ratio is of giving back to the open source community, and how do you do that in a good way. [00:12:32] We find out what TODO does to help organizations coordinate their giving back to open source projects. [00:14:47] Looking at the TODO Group and looking ahead in the next three to five years, Ana tells us what she's most excited about making. [00:17:24] Richard asks Ana if TODO Group offers anything towards the midsize or mini OSPO companies and what do they offer. [00:19:17] Ana explains more about OSPOlogy. [00:21:37] Find out the best way to get involved in TODO Group. [00:24:15] Our next guest, McCoy Smith, joins us and shares his background. [00:26:44] McCoy gives us the details on the talk he did at FOSS Backstage on, Project Ownership & Project Enforcement: The Rules, they are A-Changing, and he explains some acronyms he talked about in his presentation: CAA, CLA, and LELO. [00:30:14] Does enforcement matter for most open source projects? [00:31:49] Richard asks McCoy about proliferation of licenses and wonders if that's even an issue or how he views it affecting the open source space. [00:34:17] We find out if McCoy is seeing open source being more of a liability for law than it used to be like for legal parts of large corporations or if he's seeing open source focus on security more than it used to be. [00:37:22] McCoy tells us about some different initiatives that are happening with OSPO's. [00:39:23] Find out what's most interesting to McCoy today about open source. [00:41:38] Richard brings up a blog post Kyle Mitchell wrote, and McCoy shares his thoughts about it. [00:44:48] Find out where you can follow McCoy on the web. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) podcast@sustainoss.org (mailto:podcast@sustainoss.org) FOSS Backstage 2022 (https://foss-backstage.de/) Ana Jiménez Santamaría Twitter (https://twitter.com/anajsana95) Ana Jiménez Santamaría LinkedIn (https://es.linkedin.com/in/ana-jim%C3%A9nez-santamar%C3%ADa/en) McCoy Smith Twitter (https://twitter.com/McCoySmith?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) McCoy Smith LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mccoysmith) Lex Pan Law (https://www.lexpan.law/) Lex Pan Law Twitter (https://twitter.com/lexpanlaw?lang=en) TODO Group (https://todogroup.org/) TODO (OSPO) Group-GitHub (https://github.com/todogroup) OSPOlogy Monthly Meetings (https://github.com/todogroup/ospology/tree/main/meetings#ospology-monthly-meetings) TODO Group OSPO Forum (https://github.com/todogroup/ospology/discussions) Measuring the Business Impact of Open Source & OSPOs with Amanda Casari (https://community.linuxfoundation.org/events/details/lfhq-todo-group-presents-measuring-the-business-impact-of-open-source-ospos/) OSPOCon 2022-Austin, TX (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-summit-north-america/) OSPOCon 2022 Europe (https://events.linuxfoundation.org/open-source-summit-europe/about/ospocon/) OpenChain (https://www.openchainproject.org/) FOSS Backstage-McCoy Smith-Project Ownership & Project Enforcement: The Rules, they Are A-Changing (YouTube) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dgcXpSrKCMU) Sustain Podcast-Episode 94: Josh Montgomery and the Patent Trolls (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/94) Kyle Mitchell Blog (https://writing.kemitchell.com/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) and Charlotte Tienes (https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlotte-tienes-88038a18b/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guests: Ana Jiménez Santamaría and McCoy Smith.

Guest Amanda Casari Panelists Richard Littauer | Ben Nickolls | Eric Berry Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We are very excited for today's podcast. Our guest is Amanda Casari, who is a Developer Relations Engineer and Open Source Researcher at Google Open Source Programs Office (OSPO). Today, we learn about some open source work Amanda is doing with her research team at the University of Vermont Complex Systems Center, she tells us about a project called ACROSS, and a paper that was written by her team that was actively looking at contributions that are measured for code centric repositories. Amanda goes in depth about what open source is to her, she shares advice if you're looking to collaborate more effectively with people in open source, she talks more about how we can support projects financially to other parts of the world and mentions some great groups she worked with. Go ahead and download this episode to learn more! [00:02:00] Amanda fills us in on the open source work that she started working on with the University of Vermont Complex Systems Center. [00:06:43] Amanda explains the “assumptions we have that aren't verified,” as well as a paper that came from their research team and what they examined. [00:09:52] We learn more about how people interface with closed decisions behind doors and open source. [00:13:30] Ben asks Amanda to tell us what kind of behaviors and differences she sees between communities that emerge and continue to exists off of platforms like GitHub and GitLab. [00:15:50] Amanda tells us about a project their team is working on called ACROSS, and a paper that won a FOSS award last year that was about actively looking at contributions that are measured for code centric repositories. [0019:18] Eric wonders what type of responsibility Amanda sees that would come from GitHub and if that's going to affect us long term. [00:23:01] Amanda explains working as a Control Systems Engineer, and she explains how she sees open source as blocked diagrams and feedback loops. [00:27:53] We hear some great advice from Amanda if you are someone who wants to make the world of open source a more complex and beautiful place with what you have to offer. [00:32:08] We hear some thoughts from Amanda for people working in open source who don't have a huge amount of privilege to have the ability to share their energy and find it harder to think laterally. [00:35:27] Ben wonders what we can do to support projects financially and what we can do to support the next generation from the different parts of the world who haven't had the opportunity to benefit yet. Amanda shares her thoughts and mentions some really great groups she worked with such as Open Source Community Africa, PyCon Africa, and Python Ghana. [00:39:24] Find out where you can follow Amanda online. Quotes [00:09:01] “A lot of open source decision making is really behind proprietary or closed doors.” [00:19:59] “When it feels like there is only one option for any kind of tool, infrastructure, or access, that's when I always start getting concerned.” [00:24:58] “Open source is a ___ system.” [00:29:59] “Open source is not one thing, it's many interactive parts that fit together in different ways.” Spotlight [00:40:10] Eric's spotlight is an article Amanda submitted on “Open source ecosystems need equitable credit across contributions.” [00:40:39] Ben's spotlight is a shout out to Jess Sachs and the maintainers of Faker.js. [00:41:22] Richard's spotlight is Red Hen Baking in Vermont. [00:41:47] Amanda's spotlights are two books: Data Feminism _and _The Data-Sitters Club that she found on The Executable Books Project. Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) Amanda Casari Twitter (https://twitter.com/amcasari?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Amanda Casari LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amcasari/) Open Source Stories (https://www.opensourcestories.org/) The penumbra of open source: projects outside of centralized platforms are longer maintained, more academic and more collaborative (https://arxiv.org/abs/2106.15611) Getting the Giella source code for your language (https://giellalt.uit.no/infra/GettingStarted.html) Julia Ferraioli Blog (https://www.juliaferraioli.com/blog/) What contributions count? Analysis of attribution in open source (article) (https://scholar.google.com/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=en&user=VRBk-q8AAAAJ&citation_for_view=VRBk-q8AAAAJ:qjMakFHDy7sC) ACROSS Taxonomy-GitHub (https://github.com/google/across) RubyConf 2021- Black Swan Events in Open Source-That time we broke the Internet (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1g9UDReu80wo14H8beoAJ6n69ZorBYhLjKxOU1ngegeY/edit#slid) All Contributors bot-GitHub App (https://github.com/all-contributors/app) All Contributors (https://allcontributors.org/) Open Source Community Africa (https://oscafrica.org/) PyCon Africa (https://pycon-africa-stage.us.aldryn.io/) Python Ghana (https://www.pythonghana.org/) Open source ecosystems need equitable credit across contributions (article) (https://bagrow.com/pdf/casari2021.pdf) Faker (https://github.com/faker-js/faker) Red Hen Baking Co. (https://www.redhenbaking.com/) Data Feminism (https://data-feminism.mitpress.mit.edu/) The Executable Books Project (https://executablebooks.org/en/latest/) The Data-Sitters Club (https://datasittersclub.github.io/site/index.html) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Associate Producer Justin Dorfman (https://www.justindorfman.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Transcript by Layten Pryce (https://www.fiverr.com/misstranscript) Transcript Richard [00:11]: Hello, and welcome to Sustain, the podcast where we're talking about sustaining open-source for the long haul. Who are we? Where do we come from? Where are we going? What are we going to talk about today? Very excited for today's podcast. We have an amazing guest. One of the few guests from the state I am in, which is really fun for me. I just feel like saying that first before anything else, because I don't know why, but before we introduce her, I want to make sure we also talk about the other people you're going to be hearing on today's podcast. So I am Richard [name]. Hello everyone. And then we also have Benjamin Nichols, sometimes known as Ben, how are you? Ben [00:48]: I'm good. I'm a bit enjoying the sun. Thank you. Richard [00:51]: Cool. Okay, great, Eric, how are you doing? Eric [00:54]: No sun, but I'm really happy to be here. I'm very well caffeinated. Richard [00:58]: That is very good. I'm going with apple ciders today. I don't know why, I think it's because I already have caffeine. Great. So that's the little tiny stuff at the beginning to set the mood for the show. And now the actual content. Our guest today is the amazing Amanda Casari. Amanda Casari is a lot of things. She doesn't like titles very much, which is cool. So I'm just going to say what she wrote down in the prep doc, DevRel engineer, plus open source researcher at Google open-source programs office, which we're going to shorten to the Google OSPO for the rest of this conversation, because that's just too much of a word. She also lives in Vermont and has a long and storied career. Amanda, how are you doing? Amanda [01:39]: Hi, I'm doing great. It's so good to be here today. And I'm also absolutely thrilled Richard, that you also live in Vermont. Richard [01:47]: I know we have this small thing in Vermont where we really like talking about being in Vermont. I think it's because we're in a little man's complex because it's a very small state and so it's just nice to be like, oh, someone else, Amanda, actually that might be a good intro. So you've been active in open source communities for over a decade. You've organized local community groups. You've filed issues. You've cleaned the documentation, you've tested fixes or fixed tests. You've done all the things. You move chairs around, but like you're really a systems level person. [02:14] You're all about thinking about what open-source is and how can we make sure that the entirety of open-source regenerates builds better, is more sustainable, is more resilient, is more better for the people inside of it. Part of that work has been working directly with UVM, which is confusingly, the University of Vermont and it's based in Burlington. And it now has, I believe some sort of OSPO. Can you talk about what that is and how that happened? Amanda [02:40]: Yeah, so as brief as I can make it, because otherwise I will spend the next 45 minutes talking about this. I switched into the Google OSPO office because I started and worked on a partnership and a research group with the University of Vermont complex system center. So we started to look within Google and understand how can we really begin to picture, strategize, think about, learn from open-source, like you said, from a systems and ecosystems and networks perspective, which is in line with my background. [03:16] So in the way, way before, I'm a actually a control systems engineer. So problems that are dull, dangerous or dirty fit right with that robotics line of thinking and examining infrastructures and legacy infrastructures and how things interconnect and where they need support and where they don't, is absolutely aligned with what I used to work on. And then I did go to the University of Vermont and I was a fellow at the complex system center. When I was studying power systems and I actually looked at electrical engineering and applied mathematics. [03:48] And so a lot of that is fundamental for the reason why, like my brain is really shaped to examine and look at things, as to what scales and what doesn't, but not from some of the software perspective of how do you scale things, but where do you actually, and can you find rules that may or may not apply at different scales and may not work? So we may try to apply things that work at a smaller group, at a larger scale and they break down and that's when they actually don't scale. So working with the University of Vermont, we started in early 2020, which was a really interesting time to get a new research line started, especially when one of your core researchers is an infectious disease modeler. But I would say the benefit from starting at that time is that we really got lucky in a few places. [04:37] So one of the places that we got lucky in early 2020, is we took everything that we were thinking about for the next two years of life. And we said, this is probably going to change. And we fundamentally moved some of the money and the grant money around to start instead examining who needs support now, what can we do now? So if we're not going to be able to travel, we're not going to be able to hold community workshops. We're not going to be able to invite open-source people together to talk to us, what should we be doing instead? [05:08] One of the things that we did is we hired another researcher. So we took some of the travel money and some of the budget for commuting. We moved that into a position at the time and that, one, was wonderful because that person is brilliant. But second, it really worked out well because I don't remember if everyone remember early 2020 academic institutions were shutting budget and roles and department shut down. And it was really a crisis mode, but we were sheltered from a lot of that because of the structure we set up. [05:33] But there's been a lot of great research coming out of that group and that team. One of the fundamental things we've been just trying to figure out is where's the information you would need to understand and what's happening at open-source at a large scale level? And we found there are a lot of assumptions that are made that we can't verify. So we find that we are looking for information always in a way that respects individuals and respects people in open-source as humans. And doesn't observe them in a way that is without their consent, but it's very hard to find the information you need that doesn't just result from conveniently available information on the internet. [06:12] But for the OSPO perspective at the University of Vermont, UVM is a recent recipient of a Sloan tech grant that is going to be establishing an open-source programs office and also has a research component to understand and look at open-source communities as they emerge, especially as they emerge in local communities who have a directive to really support local effects rather than maybe like a global effect or a corporate good Richard [06:36]: So much in there. Most interesting was there were assumptions that we have that aren't verified. What assumptions are you talking about regarding open-source and what have you looked at? Amanda [06:47]: So I rant a lot amongst researchers and groups of people, Richard, as you know, and I don't have time to verify all of my ranting or all of my hypothesis. But one of the research lines that I am most excited about learning and exploring more. There's a paper that came out from our team and I will add it to the show notes late,r is called the penumbra of open-source. And so the research team and I was not on this paper, but the research team examined whether or not the sample that we used from GitHub is actually representative of the larger open-source ecosystem. [07:24] And so they went about looking for individual hosted, but public and open Git servers to be able to start to look at whether or not, if you choose not to be on a platform like GitHub or GitLab or any other hosted platform repository, does your open-source project organization, metadata, community, organization, decision making, does that look like what's hosted on GitHub? And they found that it wasn't. So GitHub itself, they called the convenient sample. It's something that's used because it's easy for researchers to get to, which I would also challenge the convenience and ease of getting specifically that data access, because most of that data is accessed by researchers, by aggregated collections like the GitHub archive, or there's a few other aggregation projects, but they're all open-source or research projects. [08:15] They are funded by groups like Google or groups like Microsoft. But if you actually wanted to do aggregated research of what is happening in open-source and trends in time. That's something that is a huge data engineering project. And the best that we can do right now is samples off of those aggregated platforms. But it's not clear in a way that it used to be. So if you look at a lot of the studies that are coming out, they may look at something like the Linux kernel, or they may look at something like projects from the Apache software foundation, because all of the tools that those developers use are in a much more aggregated and less distributed format and also less proprietary systems. [08:57] So that data is actually accessible and is more transparent. Otherwise, a lot of open-source decision making is really behind proprietary or closed doors. And that might be the decision of the community. They may not also realize that like the effects of those decisions. Richard [09:12]: I don't know of a lot of projects that are outside of GitHub. I used to know of one, I just checked and Gela Techno Finn minority language documentation has now moved to GitHub, which seems to happen a lot, I assume. And so it's always shocking to me to hear that people have projects elsewhere and they think about it elsewhere. One of the things I want to focus on though, besides that, which always blows my mind, is you talked about open source decision making happening behind doors. And it seems to me to be at ends with what we think of as open-source naively when we begin learning about open=source, we think, oh, open-source, everything's out in the open. [09:50] It's great. freedom of speech, freedom of everywhere. I want to know more about how people interface with closed decisions behind doors and open-source, and whether everyone knows that, and we're just not talking about it openly, or whether that's something that actually causes fractures in communities when they realize that the power is elsewhere. I'm just curious about your opinion on this. Amanda [10:13]: So to be perfectly frank and clear, decisions about open-source have always been behind closed doors. So there is an illusion of access, but not everybody has always been invited to those meetings. So talking with folks who have been involved in open-source even much longer than I have, we've talked about these different kinds of cyclic patterns and community and transparency and in governance, different kinds of governance models. So it used to be that folks would show up a few days before a conference, ahead of time or stay afterwards for a few conferences. [10:49] And if you were invited to those meetings, you were part of that decision making group. But I would like to point out that the first person that became a core dev programmer contributor for the Cython kernel is actually Mariatta Wijaya. And she just joined that a few years ago. So she was the first person who identified as a female who was even invited for this programming language that's been around for 20 years. And I will say, I feel like that community's done a wonderful job in understanding their limitations and where they have and have not been transparent and open. [11:21] And Guido van Rossum has the creator of the language has also been one of the staunch supporters, allies, and movers of change for that. But it took a long time for that to happen. So the idea that there are these close off areas where decision are making is nothing new. However, there was always this idea that at least conversations and decisions and communication happen as something as open as a mailing list, and everybody had access to something like the mailing list. Maybe it was cell hosted or maybe it was hosted on a centralized platform, but at least you could see it. That's not the same case anymore. [11:54] We have a ton of developer platforms now that people choose to have conversations on. Sometimes those communications get centralized with things like repositories. And that is for trying to make communication and understanding more atomic, which is totally understandable. And every community gets to make these decisions for themselves. And if you are trying to piece together all of this information, it's a huge data archeology problem. This is something that Julia Farole and I talk about a lot, is if you just want to understand what's happening in a community, who is making decisions, who has access, who is even doing any of the work, like if we just want to understand what work is even visible or valued in a community that's very challenging to see right now. And that's another one of our core research areas that we're working on, is just making labor visible across open-source. Ben [12:47]: So I just wanted to kind of pick up and extend Richards question to a degree. And just, if you can talk a little bit about the difference that you see in communities that are based on more kind of some might say modern traditional platforms, like GitLab, maybe [13:06 inaudible] to a certain degree, but versus those projects that exist kind of, I would say off-platform and behind kind of mailing list and so on, because I think a lot of people would say that some communication methods like mailing list, mailman and so on could be argued to be less accessible than say, like GitHubs, that's now got a lot more kind of discussion based features and so on. So I was just wondering like what kinds of behaviors you see and what kind of difference do you see between communities that emerge and continue to kind of exist off of platforms, like GitHub and GitLab? Amanda [13:43]: So I will say, I feel like the differences between centralized platform centric communities and non platform centric communities. I feel like that actually is still an open research question because of the fact that again, like the data collection for it is pretty hard to do, so you have to start like adding layers at a time. So you can look at things at just like maybe how the repositories are structured, but that may or may not be indicative of how decisions are made, which may or may not be indicative of communication layers. [14:12] But when we start thinking about this in terms of how do you model that? These are all actually separate modeling techniques that you use for each of these different kinds of layers. And I think that is something our team is actively interested in and working on. I have a lot of theories that are not founded on that right now. I would love to start looking at what kinds and if any, are there heard cultural norms, values, but I would really love to start understanding and seeing when a decision is made to choose one technology over the other for dev tool stacks for a community, because there's a lot of porting that's happened in the last few years. [14:51] How has that worked out? So not even like the initial choice to choose that dev tool or that infrastructure stack may have been made five years ago for different reasons that they would be made now. Has that worked out to meet the community's goals? Has it changed who has access and who has voice? Has it changed who's work is visible or is that something that's still an unsolved problem for the community? And are there ways that we need to think about focusing on that so that they get more visibility and transparency regardless of their decision? Ben [15:21]: I kind of feel like those latter points about whose contributions are recognized and valued and so on is a little bit of a, hidden nugget of another point, because I would say that my opinion, which is also not based on fact, but my experience to date has been communities that are based around platforms like GitHub are maybe a little bit more code centric and communities that aren't are possibly a little bit more interpersonal. And I think that there's a whole load of issues that we could potentially unpack there. Do you see any of that already? Is that something that you are already kind of thinking about or working on? Amanda [15:56]: Yes. So our team has been working on, we call it the across project and I always forget what the acronym stands for, but it basically comes to like better attribution and credit in open source. So we have done research on that. The paper actually won the Fass award at Minimg Software Repositories conference last year. And it was actively looking at contributions that are measured for code centric repositories, as you said, because this is what we're really trying to show, is that when you're only looking at code and acknowledging that a lot of people are trying to shove a lot of things into repos these days that maybe they weren't intentionally designed for, for, but again, going along with that idea of atomic information, about a project or about a community or about an ecosystem. [16:38] So looking at a repository centric view, we evaluated the difference between how GitHub contributors shows actions and gives attribution how the events API does it. There's a tool that one of my colleagues, Katie McLaughlin wrote called octohatrack, which looks at a code repo on GitHub and produces a list of contributors for anybody who's ever interacted with that repository, which is different than what the GitHub API shows. And then we also compared that against repositories that were using the all contributors bot. So the all contributors bot for those listening who are not familiar with this, the bot it is a way that you can manually add in or add in through different actions. So it's, auto plus manual. [17:19] Ways that you can start to give people credit and attribution for things that may not be reflected by a change in the repo. So we started to look at the difference between for communities and projects, what kind of things were getting added manually versus what automatic contributions would show. And we were able to see that folks that were using manual additions were giving credit from more of the kind of work that would never show up in an API. And so part of this is really starting to think about what kind of mixed methods tooling, changes to tooling we should be thinking about as a community to really start to give that visibility into all of the work that happens like this podcast itself, unless it's in a repo is not going to be showing up as a part of the open-source community if you're doing archeology around open-source contributions. [18:12] But I would argue that discourse and thought and community should be something that would be recognized. And so we held some workshops. I mean, we're going to have some more results coming out from that. But one of the things that we did find, which we can talk about is that getting everybody in open-source to agree on what a project is, an organization is, or an event is a very hard problem. So standardized definitions is not something that carries across as a global ecosystem level. And so when we talked earlier about examining different projects, I think drawing boundaries and open-source is a very challenging problem. So you have to be very distinct when you talk about where the boundaries around people are or around technology is as opposed to being able to say open source is like this big, broad thing. Ben [19:01]: I was wondering the role of GitHub. And I'm curious your thoughts on how much control we actually have as an open-source community to make really effective changes when the tool that basically we all kind of go to for open source is a private company with their own interests. I was wondering what type of responsibility you see that would come from GitHub and is that going to affect us long term and how so? Amanda [19:26] : I mean, obviously I work for a for-profit company. I don't work for a nonprofit, I don't work for, I'm not an independent consultant or contractor. So for me, I do look at the question of what is the goal of a community to moving to a centralized platform at any time. And I think that when done intentionally and if always done with a feeling of independence and autonomy, that's the right decision for that team to be able to move and choose which dev tools and platforms work best for them. When it feels like there are only one option for any kind of tool or infrastructure or access, that's when I always will start getting concern. [20:10] So for me, when we think about centralized platforms, I think the trade offs for that is considering whether or not this is serving the community, or is this serving the platform and the product? And always taking the perspective and understanding that whenever you choose to be on a product, even if it's a free tier, it's not that are giving nothing in response for getting everything. So in the before, like before I used to, I had this job, I think one of the jokes I used to have with my friends is, if you would like me to tear down your terms and conditions from a data perspective, I'm happy to do that for you to talk about what kind of things the data teams may be working with based on what you sign off as a user. [20:51] It's something I've been highly aware of my entire career, but I don't know if everybody else views it that way. So I also know that when I talk with folks about doing productivity studies of open-source, it makes people feel a little bit nervous. Nobody wants to observed in a way that they are not opting into. So when I try to think about the work that we're doing and where we encourage and think about transparency, not just as a cultural communal trait, but as a source of representation and census. [21:21] So when we hear or think or talk about the larger effects that open-source has in the world, who gets to be represented in that, how is their work represented in that? Your decisions around transparency and proprietary information, how is that influencing or changing the way that larger view has? How does it change the conversation? How does that change the global business and how investments are made? And I think that we can want to pretend that all of those analogies and realities don't exist, but the fact is that they do, and individual efforts can add up to collective and cumulative effects. [22:04] But that's when we really have to start talking as to who does it serve and why. And so I think for me, when I think about centralized platforms and whether or not that gives access, or it removes access, as long as communities are understanding that and understanding who it leaves out and who it includes, that's really the decision that I look for when I'm trying to see why and how people are choosing to be on different kinds of managed services. Richard [22:33]: I'm really enjoying this conversation and I'm really enjoying listening to you, but it's been difficult for me to formulate a question effectively, partially because a lot of the words you are using are not things that I have here on autopilot. A lot of our guests, no offense to them, they're wonderful guests, but I can just be like, cool, where is your business model coming from? How's that going? How are you making things better? And with you, the concepts that you're throwing out during the conversation are ones that I don't regularly wrestle with, using this verbiage which I find very effective. One of the things that I know we've talked about before is open-source as different types of systems, open-source X kind of a system. You mentioned earlier that you worked as a control. I, don't even remember the term because I don't really know what it is, like a control engineer or something I'm guessing that's more like low level. Amanda [23:22]: Okay. I will give you a little bit of a break Richard in that, control systems engineer comes up on exactly zero drop menus. Anytime I've ever had to input. So I don't even know how many programs have that, but it is what's on my bachelor's degree and it's not something that is, and to be quite fair, it's weapons and control systems engineering. Because I went to the United States Naval academy. So that definitely not on there, but my focus while I was there was robotic systems and environmental engineering, which at the time was why are microgrids not yet feasible and how much does solar cost? So totally fine. If that doesn't didn't originally. Richard [24:05]: That's excellent. Thank you for explaining, what did that mean again? Amanda [24:10]: Well, okay. So the TLDR control systems is how do you take what could be inoperable systems and actually make them work together, in a way where you can abstract enough of the way the physics that you can understand where they interconnect. And for me basically it's how do I now see the world as block diagrams and feedback loops? Richard [24:29]: So how do you see open-source as block diagram and feedback loops? What is open-source then to you? Amanda [24:34]: Okay. So I have a full list of these kinds of things and I will say like I have open documents in writing that I have not yet pushed out. And Julie and I do did touch on this in our Ruby comp talk. So we gave a talk last year called black swans of open-source. And that's a research line we're still working on because we're so fascinated by this issue. But the way that we talk about it is open-source. Like you said, open-source is a blank system. And then it's all these different layers and lenses and views that we are looking at this system as. [25:07] And so talking about, I think we talked about before that open-source is a complex system, which is why Vermont complex systems work so well, then I can go through complexity theory or drop some links into the show notes for folks who need to be able to work on that. But we also view the lens that open-source is a sociotechnical system that you cannot divorce the human and social elements and constructs from the technical decisions and effects that it has. Open-source is distributed. It's cooperative. It's an economic system that we don't talk about enough what that means and the effects that it has again on people in it and how it evolves over time. [25:40] And most recently I've also been trying to parse out in my brain that if we view open-source as a legacy system. The concept of open-source as a legacy system, what does that mean for me and a Jing, like an aging global system construct while still keeping it running and then evolving it moving forward. Where are the magnetic tape mainframes of open-source that we just stick these clients and these things on top of? And then build fatter clients on top of, and then we look at it and we're like, well, everything's fine, right? [26:20] But then we start to have things like critical vulnerabilities that are deep down in these older infrastructures and it strikes us by surprise. So I think this is where the black swans area moves into is because Julie and I really try to parse apart and understand what are the analogies and assumptions that we use to describe open-source and are those valid, do they exist? Are they just constructs in our minds that we've used as either recruiting tales or onboarding tales or based on life experience, but don't really exist outside of our own time-frame. [26:56] So this is, I think for me trying to like really take a step back and understand not to is based off of my experience, people ,I know what I can see online, and this was the Genesis for our open-source stories project too. So for those who don't know, Julie and I run a Story Corp project where we are gathering stories from folks in open-source and making them visible in public. And the purpose of that isn't even to talk about people's journeys in open source, it's just to talk about them as humans so that we really start bringing that cultural perspective together, especially before some folks just decide they no longer want to be involved. [27:31] So these are all the different ways that like, let's say background, current work, everything kind of blends together. How are we actually thinking about this and how does the world that we all love and are apart of work and how can we describe it better so that we could better support it? Richard [27:46]: I couldn't hard agree more with everything that you're saying around different ways of viewing open-source. One of the main question I have personally, and I'm going to try to phrase it in a way that's not just about Richard, is what advice would you give to someone who has these thoughts about open-source? You seem to be very and looking at a complex system and finagling other people to pay you to work on that complex system and then be able to actually effectively get your ideas about that system out there into the world. [28:14] I'm curious for those who are doing other open-source projects, for those who want to try a different economic system in their project, who want to talk about open-source is an ethics system, who want to collaborate more effectively with other people about whether open-source is even the term they want to use anymore, et cetera, et cetera. How would you suggest that they make the world of open-source a more complex and beautiful place with what they offer? What should they do? Amanda [28:41]: First of all, call me maybe, because I love co conspirator and people to talk to and work with. And I would say we talked earlier about how I'm not a fan of titles. Part of that is because so much of my career has been really non-linear, job titles, experiences, roles. And this even goes into, when I talk about thinking of representing labor and open source, I really try to avoid nouns and focus on verbs because it's less about what a person is called and more about the work that they do based on what's needed at the time or required. And so I think one of my verbs I would turn into a noun Richard is professional nerd sniper, and that's hard. [29:16] I don't want sniper in there. So it needs to be like snippet, maybe professional nerd snippet, because going back to the XKCD comic, I am very good in conversations at picking up on what brings people energy and then trying to examine in my like mind map of files, where is there a gap that I see in the world or in my projects or interests or someone else's interests and how can I help this energetic person fit with the thing that gives them energy? [29:48] So for other people, I would say that first of all, if you do have the idea that open source is a complex system, keeping in mind that then open source is not one thing. It's many interacting components and parts that interact together in multiple ways, which also tells us that there are local rules you can look at so that there's no one way to go about being in open-source, doing open-source, contributing to open-source, leading in open-source. So giving yourself, first of all, the permission to examine what is it that brings you energy and where can you put that, versus trying to follow someone else's path or pattern to what it is that they think being a leader in open-source looks like. I mean, I started being a data scientist in 2009. Nobody knew what being a data scientist would look like in 2021, 12 years ago. [30:46] So for people who are trying to examine what to do with their time, energy, talent, is really looking at, I try to view things as we're working in an emergent system. There's no map for what's happening next, especially now. There's so much chaos in what's happening in so many different things that we're working on that if you're trying to move things forward in a linear, like exponential scale, you will probably fail right now. But if instead you're viewing and looking at your work, your contributions, what you want to have as really kind of interacting and nudging things in a way where greater things can emerge from it, I feel like you'll get more satisfaction. [31:28] So I feel like a lot of that disconnect that folks have who view things either as a system or from a complexity point, is that they feel like they keep being shoved into these other expectations and these other expectations of time or scale or the way things work. And I would say if you draw back to the things that you really think to be true and examine that and find other people who value that you'll be much more satisfied. Richard [31:53]: I know you're a huge fan of DEI work in open source. A lot of what you said strikes me as very easy to accomplish if you're privileged, not saying that was intentional about what you said, I'm just saying that's how it struck me. And one of the things I'm curious about is, how would you ask people who are less privileged in open-source to be able to have the ability to do that and to share that energy and to open those doors. What would you suggest for people working open-source who don't have a huge amount of privilege and may find it harder to laterally? Amanda [32:23]: So, first of all, I do want to say, I think working in open-source isn't always going to be recognized as a centralized platform contribution profile. So when we're trying to say who and how do we actually recognize that work, please do not use that as the measurement for your own contributions, which is why I talk a lot about how some of my main contributions in open-source have been making pies for people because it makes me happy and it makes them happy. And that just makes general community good. [32:48] One of the questions I have is when we are looking at understanding what is best and what's next and needed in open-source, I am concerned that we have an increasingly weird bias. And so weird in that case would be categorized as Western educated, industrialized, rich and democratic. I mean, it's something I'm aware of. I talk to people about, and like incognizant of when we are trying to understand the future, are we increasing that or are we decreasing that? [33:15] And for me that means a lot more connection, outreach and learning from people who don't grow up or contribute or form communities that look like that. And I'll say, I have a ton of work to do there. And I'm very excited to meet more folks who create community, contribute to technology, who don't fit that profile and learning more about what engages them, what keeps them there and what challenges they face, because we know what challenges some folks face. We know that some folks work at technology companies and are extremely talented and rich, but none of their work ever shows up in a public place. And then when they get home, they have other things that they have to do and they will never have anything it's in a public place, but it doesn't make them any less of a contributor in the world. [34:02] Or maybe even a contributor towards asking questions and clarifications and making documentation improved in a way that their name will never show up. But I do think the centralized idea of finding and connecting with community is universal and ensuring that everyone has access to information and communication networks is a human right. And so making sure that people all have access to global communication regardless of where they live and the devices that allow them those communication is something we should all be concerned with and that we should make sure that we are in a way that increases equity and not in a way that actually separates us even more. Ben [34:39]: I love this conversation. There have been so many touch points for me that I'm just massively interested in. And to be honest, a little bit obsessed by, and I think there is a moment, an intersection here between kind of a philosophical kind of view of open-source. You kind of get to decide whether it is about the peopl or it's about the code, which for me is kind of like the discussions that you sometimes hear about market economics, is demand and supply actually decided by the demand side or by the supply side, because the supply side creates the demand side? [35:14] I was wondering with that in mind, and talking about the privilege that people have at the moment to be able to use their free time to contribute to open-source software versus those that necessarily don't, what are your thoughts on kind of emerging ways of being able to support projects financially and things that we can do to support that, to bring the next generation from the developing world, from the global [35:38 inaudible], from however you want to kind of refer to the parts of the world where people just haven't really had the opportunity to benefit yet. Amanda [35:45]: So I think one of the best things we can think about doing is technology companies can start building more offices in places that are not the United States and Europe and certain countries in Asia. So encouraging, not just offshore or remote job. And I know that the idea of offices right now still feels like perhaps either a scary thing. But the reason I bring that up is because very concretely that also changes tax structures and incentives and benefits for companies. [36:11] So there's a big difference between being able to hire someone as a contract, which is fine. That's sometimes the job structure that some people want, but that's a very different benefit structure for other people than sometimes being a full-time employee. So when I think about equity, one of the first things I started thinking about is where are you investing in offices? Where are you investing in incorporating your company? Where are you invested in hiring people from? And the very clear economics of link communities in those countries and countries that are not places that other companies do business is sometimes it can be very challenging as you well know, to get money transferred across borders. [36:47] And in a way where it respects regulatory requirements and actually understands all of those tax incentives. So sometimes one of the hard problems in open-source is getting resources to the groups. If you have resources and someone else needs them moving the thing you have to the thing in need can be very challenging because we only have so many systems that are set up to be able to do that. And being able to do that at scale is an entirely different problem. So when I start thinking about growing places, first of all, I do think about also asking the people who are already there and who are already creating those groups and those challenges. [37:25] So I really have learned a lot and I absolutely love working with the folks from open-source community Africa, and also from Python, Africa and Python, Ghana or some really interesting groups. Python, Ghana is interesting for me because is a countrywide Python community. It's both distributed and centralized in the same way that seems to be working well for folks that they work with. And it incorporates a lot of other kind of groups. Open-source community Africa, I had a chance to go to their open-source festival right before the shutdown in 2020. [37:56] And they had, I think they were expecting like a few hundred people. And by the final day it was over a thousand. I mean, it was tons of students and people brought together and it was absolutely wonderful. When I think also too, about another thing I'm working on now, I would love to improve documentation transparency and reporting around sponsorships for open-source of just making it more clear, what organizations need in a way that is discoverable accessible and able to be found by groups. [38:30] I would love the people who have resources to give, to cast wider nets and have better places to be able to connect with those they depend on and in return, I would love transparency reporting for those sponsorships and the impacts of those sponsorships to be accessible in ways that when we see organizations or foundations or very small projects, be recipients of sponsors, giving them the support and the tools they need to be able to show what impact that had also for holding each other more accountable. There's a lot of money moving around in these ecosystems. And the questions that I constantly have is, are those the right places they should be moving? Richard [39:15]: I think that's probably a really good place to wrap up because it was just so succinct and perfect. So thank you so much, Amanda, for people who want to get in touch with you on the internet to learn more how they can collaborate and get these things done with your help, if you're available, where can they find you online? Amanda [39:30]: Twitter is the best place to contact me, which I know is a closed platform, but it's the easiest way for me to go through all of the direct contact. If you're curious about the open-source stories project, we are on GitHub, but we also have a website with links to be able to contact there as well. Richard [39:49]LThank you so much. And Twitter will also be in the show notes for those of you who want to reach her on Twitter. Amanda this has been excellent, but don't go yet. This is the part of the show where we talk about people, projects or things, which we think we should shed light on and or that need more love, that's right. It's spotlight, Eric Barry, what is your spotlight today? Eric [40:11]: First I got to say, I'm just overwhelmed on how amazing the show has been. So thank you, Amanda. Absolutely incredible podcast episode. I'm a big fan boy. So what I'd like to spotlight is actually an article you had submitted on open-source ecosystems, which need equitable credit across all of the contributions and stuff. I read through that, it was just really fascinating. I recommend anybody to read it. The link will be in the show notes. Richard [40:35]: Thank you so much. Excellent. Ben Nichols. Ben [40:38]: This is incredibly timely. So excuse me if it doesn't age too well, but I just wanted to give a big shout out to Jess Sax and the maintainers of [inaudible] JS that have picked up the project and are kind of providing a huge value to the community that depend on that project. We've been working with them over the course of the last week and the way that they have acted to try to kind of set things up in the best interests of all of the users, all of the kind of contributors, the previous maintainers and everything. Like it's just, it's been great to work with them. So I just wanted to kind of call out Jess specifically, but all of the new maintainers of [inaudible] JS. Richard [41:18]: Awesome. Thank you. In a left turn, I'm going to just give a shout out to Red Hen baking. If you're in Vermont and you want to go to a really nice bakery, there's a place in Middlesex, which is really nice. It's called Red Hen. If you don't have a local baker, I'd suggest looking around because if you're in the United States, there's probably a bakery near you somewhere that makes really good bread. This is mine. So Red Hen baking is excellent. Really like their mad river loaf, highly suggest. Amanda, what is your spotlight today? Amanda [41:47]: Yeah. So for those who don't know, I'm also a complete library and book nerd. And so I get really excited about the open-access projects and books. And so my recommendation, I couldn't narrow it down. So I'm going to say my recommendations today. I love the data feminism book that came out in 2020. It is available via open-access. I recently found a project called the data sitters club, which attracted to me because I found it on the executable book project, which is a whole community around Jupiter book, open-access and computational publishing. [42:16] The data sitters club is this group of people who are helping to explain computational text analysis and open data using open-access, open data and actual exploring fair use. And it is completely fair use of the babysitters club that I grew up with. And I absolutely adore the way that they've adopted that. They have a lovely debt of public health posters for the pandemic that they created in 2020 that still bring me joy to read. Richard [42:46]: Love it. Awesome, Amanda, thank you. Once again, it was great having you on, look forward to talking to you further in the future and best of luck with everything. Thanks. Amanda [42:55]: Thank you. This is great. Special Guest: Amanda Casari.

In this podcast episode, I welcome David Burns, Head of OSPO at BrowserStack, Chair person for the W3C Browser Testing and Tools Working Group, core contributor on the Selenium Open Source Project. We talk about the past, present and future of browser testing, how to eradicate flaky tests and why it's important to invest more effort into testing pyramid from the very beginning.Key points:David Burns on browser testingWebDriver BiDi specificationHow flaky tests are bornHow to start new or migrate existing projectsTesting pyramid and how tools support it (or do they?)Going BiDirectional with testingListen to the full conversation or read the edited transcript.You can also get Semaphore Uncut on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Stitcher, and more.Like this episode? Be sure to leave a ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ review on the podcast player of your choice and share it with your friends.

Guest Django Skorupa Panelists Justin Flory | Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain Open Source Design! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source with design. Learn how we, as designers, interface with open source in a sustainable way, how we integrate into different communities, and how we as coders, work with other designers. Our special guest today is Django Skorupa, who recently graduated from Rochester Institute of Technology with a degree in Industrial Design and is now working as a UI/UX Designer for the internal team at Open@RIT Academic Open Source Program Office (OSPO). We find out more about what Django is doing at Open@RIT, he explains how bad design keeps your community stagnated, and why he thinks design is kept separate from developers in the open source space. He also explains some things he's struggling with and what he's trying to learn, he goes in depth with his assessment of design, and he shares some great resources and advice if you are a new designer wanting to get involved in the open source community that helped him on his journey. Go ahead and download this episode now to find out more! [00:01:50] Django tells us what kind of leap he took going from the industrial side into the much more collaborative, interactive way of working in the open source side of things. [00:08:13] Find out what Django is doing at Open@RIT. [00:14:04] Richard wonders what open source kitchens Django plays in and if he does open source on his own how has that informed his own experience of also working with the OSPO. [00:16:12] We learn how Django sees open source. [00:18:46] Why does Django see the developers and designers kept so separate from each other in the open source space? [00:22:20] Justin wonders what Django learned from his peers and other communities that he was working with while he was doing his teaching role and if anything surprised him when he went out and worked across these different communities and peers, and especially what he's learned from Rahul Tuli. [00:26:10] Django tells us about some things he's struggling with that he's trying to learn. He mentions using Roboto font. [00:30:14] We find out if Django has started teaching yet, what his future plans are, and his assessment of design. [00:34:27] If you are a designer and want to get involved in the open source community, Django shares some resources, and a hot tip that has helped him in his journey. He mentions Red Hat as a great resource and why. [00:36:40] Find out where you can follow Django on the internet. Quotes [00:17:21] “I've always seen open source as a subsection of open Asterisk.” [00:17:52] “I think that as we move forward in the whole world, open in general is a humanitarian choice, because it is a support for people who cannot or don't want to engage with the more closed forms of education, the more closed forms of thinking, the more closed forms of interaction.” [00:21:08] “I changed my title when I was hired on as a UI/UX person from strategic designer to UI/UX and it was like the world immediately got brighter and more friendly.” [00:28:48] “The biggest struggle is using open things, trying to make everything open when you are creative, and a lot of your tools are not open.” [00:31:46] “I think that design is firmly 50/50 between skill and theory.” [00:32:37] “Design and making, while extremely similar and both parts of a process, are not the same thing.” [00:32:45] “To design is to think about the broader scope of why something happens.” [00:32:50] “Design is so much theory and so much consideration on a massive scale.” [00:32:59] “It needs to be a proper balance between pragmatism and holistic view.” [00:36:13] “Try and find places that are really transparent, try and find places that are into talking about what they do, try and find places that go on podcasts and talk about what they do, and then find those people and pick their brains and steal as much information as you possibly can from a conversation with them and write all of it down.” Spotlight [00:37:15] Justin's spotlight is Fedora Badges. [00:38:15] Richard's spotlight is a Justin Flory. [00:39:45] Django's spotlights are two open source projects: The League of Moveable Type and Unsplash.com. Links Open Source Design Twitter (https://twitter.com/opensrcdesign) Open Source Design (https://opensourcedesign.net/) Sustain Design & UX working group (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/t/design-ux-working-group/348) Sustain Open Source Twitter (https://twitter.com/sustainoss?lang=en) SustainOSS Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/company/sustainoss/) Richard Littauer Twitter (https://twitter.com/richlitt?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Justin Flory Twitter (https://twitter.com/jflory7?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Django Skorupa Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/django-skorupa-2ab959108) Django Skorupa Instagram (https://www.instagram.com/djangoskorupadesign/?hl=en) Open@RIT (https://www.rit.edu/research/open) Beyond Code and Licenses: Co-developing Community Strategies Within Academia-Online Event with Mike Nolan (eventyay) (https://eventyay.com/e/e7dfbfc4/session/7276) Rahul Tuli Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rtuli/) Roboto (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roboto) Karen Sandler Twitter (https://twitter.com/o0karen0o) Design at Red Hat (https://design.redhat.com/) Fedora Badges (https://badges.fedoraproject.org/) Sustain Podcast-Episode 21-How Playing Minecraft Opened a Door to the Open Source World with Justin W. Flory (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/21) The League of Moveable Type (https://www.theleagueofmoveabletype.com/) Unsplash (https://unsplash.com/) Credits Produced by [Richard Littauer] (https://www.burntfen.com/) (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at [Peachtree Sound] (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr [Peachtree Sound] (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Django Skorupa.

CHAOSScast – Episode 42 Hello and welcome to CHAOSScast Community podcast, where we share use cases and experiences with measuring and improving open source community health. Elevating conversations about metrics, analytics, and software from the Community Health Analytics Open Source Software, or short CHAOSS Project, to wherever you like to listen. We are super excited to have as our guest, Josh Simmons, who is President of the Open Source Initiative and Ecosystem Strategy Lead at Tidelift. Today, we will be talking with Josh all about Open Source Foundations and the topic of “Hidden Infrastructure” which is very relevant to community health. We learn from Josh the major challenges he sees to open source foundations sustainability and foundational sustainability in corporations. Also, there is a big discussion with everyone as each of them share their opinions about the health of projects and foundations and how they would asses that. Download this episode now to find out much more, and don't forget to subscribe for free to this podcast and share this podcast with your friends and colleagues. [00:02:42] Josh explains the topic of “Hidden Infrastructure-The Foundations of Open Source.” [00:05:24] Brian asks Josh what he sees as some of the major challenges that he sees to open source foundations sustainability. [00:08:43] Daniel wonders where Josh sees the balance between growing and growing as a foundation or being more of a smaller foundation but really focused on providing those services to the projects. [00:14:10] Josh goes more in depth about foundational sustainability in corporations. [00:24:54] There is discussion with everyone about the health of projects and foundations and how you would assess that. [00:35:35] Daniel brings up development tools, some might not be open source that are being used, and there might be changes in the service quality, and he asks Josh if this is an issue we should be aware of or take care of. [00:38:42] Daniel tells us about how they analyzed software development projects at GrimoireLab, which is part of CHAOSS Project, and what happened. [00:39:55] Find out where you can get in touch with Josh and follow him online. Adds (Picks) of the week: [00:40:29] Georg's picks are the answer to the “Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe, and Everything,” and his birthday coming up August 27th. [00:41:34] Brian's pick is being excited about the OSPO.Zone from the new Open Alliance in the EU. [00:42:22] Daniel's pick is taking a course on Business Anthropology. [00:43:02] Josh's pick is a project called OCEAN + ACROSS. Panelists: Georg Link Brian Proffitt Daniel Izquierdo Guest: Josh Simmons Sponsor: SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) Links: CHAOSS (https://chaoss.community/) CHAOSS Project Twitter (https://twitter.com/chaossproj?lang=en) CHAOSScast Podcast (https://podcast.chaoss.community/) podcast@chaoss.community (mailto:podcast@chaoss.community) Joshua Simmons Website (https://joshsimmons.com/) Josh Simmons Twitter (https://twitter.com/joshsimmons) Josh Simmons Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshsimmons) Checklist for measuring the health of an open source project-Red Hat (https://www.redhat.com/en/resources/open-source-project-health-checklist) GitHub Sponsors (https://github.com/sponsors) Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/) Software Freedom Conservancy (https://sfconservancy.org/) The Apache Software Foundation (https://www.apache.org/) The Linux Foundation (https://www.linuxfoundation.org/) Mozilla (https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/) Greg Kroah-Hartman bans University of Minnesota from Linux development for deliberately buggy patches (ZD Net article) (https://www.zdnet.com/article/greg-kroah-hartman-bans-university-of-minnesota-from-linux-development-for-deliberately-buggy-patches/) Mozilla-Firefox Browser (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/new/) Django changes its governance (LWN.net article) (https://lwn.net/Articles/815838/) CHAOSS Types of Contributions (https://chaoss.community/metric-types-of-contributions/) The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (Movie) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0371724/) [The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams](https://www.amazon.com/Hitchhikers-Guide-Galaxy-Douglas-Adams/dp/0345418913/ref=sr11?crid=X6TY2V3GAW0F&keywords=the+hitchhiker%27s+guide+to+the+galaxy&qid=1627667766&sprefix=the+hit%2Caps%2C200&sr=8-1) OSPO.Zone (https://ospo.zone/) Amanda Casari Twitter (for Project OCEAN + ACROSS) (https://twitter.com/amcasari/status/1417836786085208064) Special Guest: Josh Simmons.

Guest Leslie Hawthorn Panelists Allen "Gunner" Gunn | Eric Berry | Eriol Fox | Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! The podcast where we talk about sustaining open source for the long haul. We have an excellent guest on today and she is here to talk about real stuff! Our guest is Leslie Hawthorn, who is the Manager for the Vertical Community Strategy in Red Hat's Open Source Programs Office in the Office of the CTO. She has spent her career creating, cultivating, and enabling open source communities and we are so fortunate to have her with us today to speak her eloquent words of wisdom. We learn more about what Leslie does in her position, the Open Source Program Office and how she sees it growing and changing, and a deep conversation of European digital sovereignty and how it is both a threat and opportunity for open source and open standards. Also, Leslie keeps it real and shares awesome advice on what it takes to be the best kind of corporate open source program officer. Go ahead and download this episode now to learn much more! [00:02:37] We learn what Leslie she does in her position. [00:05:13] Richard is curious about what Leslie thinks about the OSPO concept in general and how does she see it growing and changing in the past five years. [00:07:43] Leslie talks about digital sovereignty and the movement towards open source program offices focusing on that. [00:13:13] Eriol brings up a design phrase “human-centered” and asks Leslie to talk more about examples she has seen where humans, users, and citizens have been centered at the creation of various open source software projects. Leslie mentions a really great panel discussion to check out with Claudia Barrosa and Pia Karter where they talked about Open Source and Open Standards, Supporting European Innovation. [00:18:21] Leslie tells us what made her move to Germany and how that's reflected in the work she's doing at Red Hat. [00:23:16] Richard wonders why Leslie feels that the OSPO at Red Hat is the place where you can affect the most change, how is she doing ecosystem level change in her current position, and where does she think it will lead her over the next few years. [00:27:42] Gunner is curious to know if Leslie has a taxonomy of how she thinks about different types of open source program offices and their motivations or contributions to open source communities, and any guiding principles that she thinks any accountable open source program office or officer might want to be following or guided by. [00:33:02] Find out where you can follow Leslie online. Quotes [00:02:49] “And when we think about traditional community management, quote on quote, there's typically a community focused human who is looking at the universe from the perspective of, how does my singular community engage with other entities?” [00:07:45] “Those who are not familiar with this concept of digital sovereignty, just the really quick rundown is this idea that folks in Europe are, I would say for some good reasons and for some bad reasons, deeply concerned about making sure that there is control of IT infrastructure and data and everything associated with just having a technological life, which turns out is now true of every citizen.” [00:08:14] “And there is, I will say, especially given my past employer, there is legitimate concern for what does it mean if your IT infrastructure is outsourced to someone far, far away from you who is not necessarily beholden to the same laws or to the same values system of the place in which you reside.” [00:09:31] “Pia Karger, who is the head of the Open Source Program Office in Germany, you know, pointed out that one of the reasons why there was this change in the name of the office that she shares was because this notion of digital sovereignty and being, let's create open source that is exclusively to be contributed to by Europeans, that is explicitly to be used by Europeans, was not in keeping with the value system that folks in her office wanted to enact nor with Germany in general.” [00:10:04] “So instead, you know, she pointed out digital sovereignty is not about excluding people from contribution or excluding people from participation, it's about ensuring that that there is freedom of choice.” [00:10:22] “You don't want to do any single sourcing of any particular vendor or any particular, you know, one place where you're going to get all your technology if you're any organization.” [00:11:10] “The ability to collaborate amongst one another and share best practices, and this moniker of the OSPO is this critical anchor because turns out, if you described your work using common language, it's very easy for folks to connect to one another and be able to do that knowledge sharing and best practice and collaboration because they can actually find each other.” [00:11:43] “Yes, OSPO is a locus of collaboration, my friends.” [00:14:45] “And then not only did she take us through their entire evolution, but then pointed out the different ways in which their agency also accounted for the fact that this digital first future that they were envisioning was going to leave a lot of citizens behind.” [00:15:50] “If you do not talk to your actual users, you have absolutely no idea what they need and whatever you produce is going to not actually meet the needs of anyone.” [00:29:38] “And I think that my charge to folks who are working in open source offices is to think back to the words that Richard said earlier, projects come and go, your employer is going to come and go.” [00:30:11] “And, if you're going to be looking at your investment strategy as a corporate open source officer, don't just be looking at whether or not you think that your open source strategy is going to provide you with developer acquisition that's going to provide you with specific ROI, or allow you to hit some vague milestone.” [00:31:47] “And that's the kind of corporate open source program officer that you want to be. You want to be somebody that is genuinely respected because you show genuine respect for other people regardless of what the dollar Euro pound won value is that interaction.” Spotlight [00:34:52] Richard's spotlight is the legendary, Cat Allman at Google. [00:35:10] Eric's spotlight is a show he highly recommends called, Ted Lasso. [00:35:36] Eriol's spotlight is a project she's been following by Daniel Burka called, Resolve to Save Lives, on GitHub. [00:36:04] Gunner's spotlight is a community he's been working with called, Gathering for Open Science Hardware. [00:36:45] Leslie's spotlight is a project in Sweden called “Smarta Byar.” Links SustainOSS (https://sustainoss.org/) SustainOSS Twitter (https://twitter.com/SustainOSS?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) SustainOSS Discourse (https://discourse.sustainoss.org/) Leslie Hawthorn Twitter (https://twitter.com/lhawthorn?lang=en) Leslie Hawthorn Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lesliehawthorn/) Cat Allman Twitter (https://twitter.com/catallman?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor) Ted Lasso (https://tv.apple.com/show/umc.cmc.vtoh0mn0xn7t3c643xqonfzy?ign-itscg=MC_20000&ign-itsct=atvp_brand_omd&mttn3pid=Google%20AdWords&mttnagencyid=a5e&mttncc=US&mttnsiteid=143238&mttnsubad=OUS2019863_1-535101970956-c&mttnsubkw=106182847425__rdMG7cVq_&mttnsubplmnt=) Resolve to Save Lives-Health Icons (https://github.com/resolvetosavelives/healthicons) Gathering for Open Science Hardware (https://openhardware.science/) Smarta Byar (https://veberod.nu/category/smarta-byar/) Panel discussion: Open Source and Open Standards, Supporting European Innovation OSL2021 (featuring Cláudia Barroso and Pia Karger) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHzVsEAxpnA&t=6s) Sustain Podcast-Episode 49-What OpenUK Does with Amanda Brock & Andrew Katz (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/49) Sustain Podcast-Episode 56-Dominic Tarr on Coding What You Want, Living On A Boat, and the Early Days of Node.js (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/56) Sustain Podcast-Episode 82-Steve Helvie and the Open Compute Project (https://podcast.sustainoss.org/82) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Leslie Hawthorn.

En este último episodio del curso hablamos sobre código abierto y software libre con Ana Jiménez, Program Manager del TODO Group de la Linux Foundation, y Javier Cánovas, profesor de los Estudios de Informática, Multimedia y Telecomunicación de la UOC e investigador del Internet Interdisciplinary Institute (IN3). Enlaces del episodio TODO Group https://todogroup.org/ Una web para conocer y promocionar las Fundaciones de Software Libre https://informatica.blogs.uoc.edu/web-para-conocer-y-promocionar-fundaciones-software-libre/ Why Software Is Eating the World https://a16z.com/2011/08/20/why-software-is-eating-the-world/ 92% of software applications contain open source software https://blog.tidelift.com/open-source-is-everywhere-survey-results-part-1 90% of IT leaders are using enterprise open source https://www.redhat.com/rhdc/managed-files/rh-enterprise-open-source-report-f27565-202101-en.pdf The birth of academy OSPO (RIT) https://www.linux.com/featured/openrit-the-birth-of-an-academic-ospo/ OSPO survey 2020 https://github.com/todogroup/osposurvey/tree/master/2020 Why transparency is critical to your open source project's security https://opensource.com/article/21/6/security-transparency Lista de “dictadores benevolentes” en Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life Desgraciadamente, no encontramos ninguna “dictadora en ella”. Where are the women in the history of open source? https://crookedtimber.org/2015/05/21/where-are-the-women-in-the-history-of-open-source/ Género, diversidad e inclusión en proyectos de código abierto https://genderit.org/es/feminist-talk/genero-diversidad-e-inclusion-en-proyectos-de-codigo-abierto Tendencias desde el Mozilla Festival https://informatica.blogs.uoc.edu/tendencias-desde-el-mozilla-festival/ ¿Qué es el Software Libre? https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.es.html

In diesem Podcast spricht Björn Brundert mit Dirk Hohndel, Chief Open Source Officer von VMware, u.a. über die Entwicklung und den Einsatz von Open Source, die Community und Free Software. Zeitstempel: 2:03 - Dirks Werdegang und Einstieg in Open Source und Linux 4:41 - Community & Kollaboration über die Jahre 7:10 - Von Free Software zu Open Source 9:05 - Open Governance und "Foundations" 15:16 - OSDL, Free Standards Group und Linux Foundation 16:33 - Cloud Native Computing Foundation als Grund für den Erfolg für Kubernetes & Co 20:00 - Open Source = gratis Software + kein Lock-In? 26:57 - Was macht ein Open Source Program Office (OSPO)? 34:09 - Von der Rechtsabteilung zum Innovationsmotor 39:10 - VMwares Open Source Strategie und Vision 40:43 - Wie startet man ein Open Source Program Office? 44:07 - Struktur des OSPO bei VMware 46:09 - Beispiele für Open Source Projekte von VMware

Guest Emma Irwin Panelists Eric Berry | Justin Dorfman | Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! We are so excited to have on this episode as our guest, Emma Irwin. She is a Senior Project Manager in the Open Source Program Office at Microsoft. Today, we learn what Emma does at Microsoft OSPO, how she runs the FOSS Fund Program inside Microsoft, and she tells us about an article she wrote on Mozilla last year about safety. We also dive into the recent news of Richard Stallman returning to the FSF board, and what Emma is excited about happening soon with work she's trying to do to help with diversity, equity, and inclusion. Download this episode to find out much more! [00:01:32] Emma fills us in on what she does at Microsoft OSPO. [00:02:47] Richard wonders how Emma manages to make it not seem extractive to do open source and how she makes it inviting for people to come and volunteer their time to work on projects which are housed by Microsoft or Microsoft is involved in. [00:05:05] Emma tells us how she runs the FOSS Fund Program inside of Microsoft and the three goals of the FOSS Fund. She also tells us how many people are working in it and if it's involved with other departments or business units, or if it's completely separate. [00:09:26] Emma gives us her opinion of how you can best build communities that enable people to thrive in an open source environment. [00:11:36] Emma elaborates on the safety issue she brought up and tells us about an article she wrote on Mozilla last year. [00:13:32] We learn how many incidents Mozilla experienced a year. [00:14:32] Justin wonders of Emma sees any projects that get more hate than others. [00:15:56] Richard brings up the recent news of Richard Stallman returning to the Free Software Foundation after resigning in 2019, and Emma shares her thoughts about it. [00:19:57 ] Emma tells us what she's most excited about in the next six months with work she's trying to do to help DEI work. [00:21:56] Find out what Emma shares that she's been learning recently as part of the FOSS Fund, which is a positive thing from Microsoft. [00:24:57] Find out where you can follow Emma on the internet. Quotes [00:01:47] “And then the place that we're kind of at Microsoft is thinking about the culture that we're building around open source as well, you know it's the mechanics and the compliance piece, but it's also the human piece.” [00:03:27] “But I really believe that, and my experience at Mozilla where I worked before this, was like bringing people together around specific topics, allowing people to learn a thing, but also collaborate and chat, come together around shared pain points or opportunities.” [00:07:48] “A good OSPO doesn't live in any part of the organization, it traverses and works with organizations and teams across it.” [00:09:41] “I think, and I teach that you really have to be mindful of who it is that you want to engage as part of your open source project.” [00:11:53] “So that work was done kind of back in the topic are of recognizing that there is not a fluid line in open source between employee or paid staff and contributors.” [00:12:51] “So that blog post and work was all about creating an end to end program to ensure that both staff and volunteers felt safe, but also understood their role.” [00:14:08] “I'll actually say that a lot of people mean well, a lot of people want, but they're often unprepared.” [00:14:42] “I think some of the well-organized projects, the .net project at Microsoft. The group that runs that is extremely good at running community.” [00:17:26] “And that's why open source is still less diverse than tech overall and Stahllman is like dinosaur in my opinion of that era.” [00:24:08] “Yeah, and there's a risk working group with CHAOSS, that's what they call the RISK WG, which is basically like, how do we think about our dependencies as a problem, how do we solve this?” Spotlight [00:26:21] Justin's spotlight is Fiverr. [00:26:49] Eric's spotlight is Gitpod. [00:27:25] Richard's spotlight is Gist. [00:27:55] Emma's spotlight is the Drupal Project. Links Emma Irwin Twitter (https://twitter.com/sunnydeveloper?lang=en) Emma Irwin Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmamirwin/) Emma Irwin Medium (https://medium.com/@sunnydeveloper) Microsoft Open Source (https://opensource.microsoft.com/) Microsoft's Free and Open Source Software Fund (FOSS Fund)-GitHub (https://github.com/microsoft-sponsorships/microsoft-foss-fund) Mozilla Community Participation Guidelines (https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/policies/participation/) “Weaving Safety into the Fabric of Open Source Collaboration” By Emma Irwin (https://blog.mozilla.org/community/2020/09/10/weaving-safety-into-the-fabric-of-open-source/) Contributor Covenant (https://www.contributor-covenant.org/) “Richard M. Stallman returns to the Free Software Foundation Board of Directors,” article on ZDNet (https://www.zdnet.com/article/richard-m-stallman-returns-to-the-free-software-foundation-board-of-directors/) RMS Open Letter-GitHub (https://github.com/rms-open-letter/rms-open-letter.github.io) CHAOSS Diversity and Inclusion Working Group-GitHub (https://github.com/chaoss/wg-diversity-inclusion) Fiverr Business (https://www.fiverr.com/business) Gitpod (https://www.gitpod.io/) Gist (https://gist.github.com/discover) Drupal Project (https://www.drupal.org/project/project) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Emma Irwin.

Guest Stormy Peters Panelists Eric Berry | Justin Dorfman | Richard Littauer Show Notes Hello and welcome to Sustain! Our amazing guest today is Stormy Peters, Director of the Open Source Programs Office at Microsoft and long-time advocate of free and open source software. Stormy tells us how she started her journey into open source and how she got involved with the OSPO at Microsoft. We find out about the impact of Duane O’Brien’s FOSS Fund, what Stormy is doing at Microsoft to help other nonfinancial ways of supporting communities and building great open source ecosystems of communities, and about how they support Outreachy. Also, Stormy fills us in on where she thinks open source is going in the future, her team’s goals, and their focus on cultural change. Download this episode now to find out much more! [00:01:16] We find out how Stormy got into open source. [00:02:40] Stormy tells us how she got involved with the Open Source Program Office at Microsoft, if she ever found herself defending open source more so than today, and if she ever thought Microsoft would be in a position they are now of how much they’ve given back to open source. [00:04:14] Richard is curious how Stormy feels about sustain, how the process has been like for her, how has it been to see the change from just being a licensing issue to being a culture, and if she thinks most people are paid for open source. [00:08:45] Eric wonders what the overall mentality was for Stormy when she got to Microsoft regarding supporting open source and if it’s changed since she’s been there. [00:12:17] Eric asks Stormy if in five years our whole development environment is on Microsoft platform if we’re going to get locked in and is that going to cause the same type of negative frustration as he is with Apple right now. [00:13:40] Richard wonders if tools are owned by Microsoft how will that affect his development and how will affect the open source ecosystem if very large corporations become the main stakeholders in open source and direct the projects in their own ways, and Stormy replies and also explains how the people get paid. [00:16:10] Justin wonders how much impact Duane O’Brien’s program FOSS Fund has made in the way they operate and the rest of the bigger OSPO’s out there. We also learn what she’s doing at Microsoft to help other nonfinancial ways of supporting communities and building great open source ecosystems of communities. [00:18:53] Stormy fills us in on who makes up their team of employees at OSPO Microsoft and where you can go to see what they are doing. [00:20:12] Richard is curious where Stormy sees the role for OSPO’s for universities, governments, cities, and anything that’s not a large corporation. She also tells us about how they support Outreachy. [00:23:08] We learn from Stormy where she thinks open source is going in the future and why she thinks a Copyleft is dropped out of the parlance. [00:25:49] Stormy tells us how she sees Ethical Source progressing and if she sees it being a major player with people or as being a movement that will cause the same tensions that GPL used to cause. [00:27:24] Richard wonders if Microsoft has a mapping of what resources they have used of what code is in their system, what open source packages they depend on, and how they are actively working towards giving back to them as a whole down the stack. [00:29:12] Eric asks Stormy what is on the forefront of her team’s mind right now, and she fills us in on her team’s goals. [00:29:56] Find out where you can follow Stormy on the internet. Quotes [00:01:53] “And this was just about the time that Linux was getting popular and they had not one, but two desktops that were popular, GNOME and KDE, and I thought surely we can collaborate on this like they do.” [00:03:42] “I’d like to joke now that I think Microsoft’s first contribution to open source was being the common enemy.” [00:04:54] “I think it’s still evolving, and I think it always will evolve and so I think it’s important that all of us continue to think about it and figure out what the new models look like.” [00:05:32] “I think a much larger majority than before get paid to work on open source.” [00:06:33] “So, I know when I was at Mozilla we consciously thought about this with Firefox OS, having people full-time on it and even more than full-time, as they worked extra hours to try to get out the door, could you still welcome people that only had two or three hours a week to work on it.” [00:08:56] “So to go back to the question about my career that it looked like it changed with this last move, I don’t think it did. To me, this was the next step in the path.” [00:09:27] “Microsoft, I think, is ideally positioned to make the next big change in open source software.” [00:12:33] “So it’s my job, extended team’s job, to make sure that Microsoft does open source well, and part of us being successful in open source is making sure we have active communities around our projects that are broader than us so that the projects are broader than us that we’re not creating that lock-in.” [00:14:51] “Microsoft uses a program called FOSS Fund that Duane O’Brien at INDEED started, where we let employees pick a project every month to give them $10,000, and the idea’s that’s not going to be enough money to support them forever but we just want to recognize some of the projects that we’re using that aren’t getting a lot of funding in other ways.” [00:15:54] “Those companies started doing contract work for an open source software project and now they work on open source software projects and other projects in general.” [00:16:34] “I think Duane’s a good thinker, like when COVID started, he started an effort to raise money for the events that were impacted, so I hope that’s empowering to a lot of people that one person can have a good idea that is a need and get people involved.” [00:17:44] “So, we’re unofficially giving Azure Credits to a number of open source software projects. I’m trying to launch an official program by which people can apply to get Azure Credits whether it’s just do their builds or whether it’s to make sure that stuff runs on Azure.” [00:18:05] “We have a lot of Microsoft employees who work on projects on GitHub. I think it’s definitely over 30,000 Microsoft employees have linked their Microsoft identity to their GitHub identity.” [00:23:13] “I think if you’d asked me that like twenty years ago, I would not have realized that Copyleft would drop out of importance as much as it has.” [00:23:36] “I don’t know if I would make an accurate prediction, but I hope it’s to continue to make, not only to make more software available to more people, but to make it more possible for people that aren’t in tech careers to write code and make computers do what they need them to do.” [00:24:20] “I think it’s cause the fear has dropped out. In the beginning it was fear that I was going to have to open source something I didn’t want to and fear that somebody was going to take my stuff and take advantage of my stuff.” [00:29:17] “Our goal is to make sure that Microsoft business units can use open source software in their strategy, that they can consume open source, that they can open source things, and that they have all the tools and knowledge they need to do that.” Spotlight [00:30:41] Eric’s spotlight is Kombucha (KeVita). [00:31:29] Justin’s spotlight is Jekyll Admin. [00:32:04] Richard’s spotlight is Carl Boettiger. [00:33:04] Stormy’s spotlight is Educational Software Projects like Khan Academy and Internet-in-a-Box. Links Stormy Peters Twitter (https://twitter.com/storming) Stormy Peters Linkedin (https://www.linkedin.com/in/stormy/) Microsoft Open Source (https://opensource.microsoft.com/) Microsoft Open Source Blog (https://cloudblogs.microsoft.com/opensource/) FOSS Contributor Fund- Duane O’Brien blog post (https://engineering.indeedblog.com/blog/2019/07/foss-fund-six-months-in/) What is copyleft? By Ben Cotton (https://opensource.com/resources/what-is-copyleft) Outreachy (https://www.outreachy.org/) KeVita Kombucha (https://www.kevita.com/) Open Collective (https://opencollective.com/) Carl Boettiger (https://ourenvironment.berkeley.edu/people/carl-boettiger) Internet-in-a-Box (http://internet-in-a-box.org/) Khan Academy (https://www.khanacademy.org/) Credits Produced by Richard Littauer (https://www.burntfen.com/) Edited by Paul M. Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Show notes by DeAnn Bahr at Peachtree Sound (https://www.peachtreesound.com/) Special Guest: Stormy Peters.

Una oficina de software libre, u oficina de programas open source (OSPO, por sus siglas en inglés) es el centro de competencias para las operaciones con código abierto de una organización. Típicamente, una OSPO se encarga de la mitigación de riesgos legales, mejorar las prácticas de ingeniería y traducir esas inversiones en open source en beneficios para la organización. Aunque las OSPOs no son un concepto nuevo, ha tomado muchos años coincidir en una definición en este caso curada por el TODO Group, un grupo de compañías que colaboran recopilando mejores prácticas para OSPOs. El material recopilado por el TODO Group va desde cómo establecer un proceso para revisar el código que se va a liberar hasta cómo comunicar nuevos releases a la comunidad, cómo medir el impacto de un proyecto open source o cómo automatizar la detección de licencias en el código fuente. El corpus de conocimiento puede llegar a ser verdaderamente abrumador, y además, como cualquier organización puede establecer una oficina de este tipo, cada vez hay más experiencias específicas de cada tipo de industria, sean bancos, empresas de tecnología, administraciones públicas o universidades (esto último particularmente en España donde el concepto es mucho más popular que en América Latina) En esta píldora nos concentramos en algunos problemas fundacionales – en algunas de las razones por las que las organizaciones suelen establecer estas oficinas. A fin de cuentas, en las organizaciones ya hay un Dpto. Legal que se encarga de mitigar riesgos, un Dpto. de Finanzas que se encarga de asegurar que las inversiones traigan beneficios y unas prácticas de mejora continua en ingeniería. Y aunque es importante trabajar con todos esos departamentos, cada vez más organizaciones entienden que, a largo plazo, la gobernanza efectiva de las inversiones open source requieren una adaptación cultural de la organización. Y aunque las OSPOs no son la única forma de lograr esto, pues dependerá de la industria, los productos y los actores de la cadena de valor de cada organización, si se invierte en ellas de forma adecuada y por suficiente tiempo, suelen ser catalizadores efectivos de estos cambios culturales. Enlaces de interés : https://github.com/todogroup/awesome-oss-mgmt https://masalladelainnovacion.com/fosdem-2020-special-edition-in-english/ https://allisonrandal.com/2015/07/22/the-future-of-open-source/ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40914046-how-open-source-ate-software https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54140556-working-in-public Presenta y dirige : José Miguel Parrella Contacto: https://www.mypublicinbox.com/MasAlladelaInnovacion Música: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/ by Kevin McLeod Licencia : Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-SA)

Una oficina de software libre, u oficina de programas open source (OSPO, por sus siglas en inglés) es el centro de competencias para las operaciones con código abierto de una organización. Típicamente, una OSPO se encarga de la mitigación de riesgos legales, mejorar las prácticas de ingeniería y traducir esas inversiones en open source en beneficios para la organización. Aunque las OSPOs no son un concepto nuevo, ha tomado muchos años coincidir en una definición en este caso curada por el TODO Group, un grupo de compañías que colaboran recopilando mejores prácticas para OSPOs. El material recopilado por el TODO Group va desde cómo establecer un proceso para revisar el código que se va a liberar hasta cómo comunicar nuevos releases a la comunidad, cómo medir el impacto de un proyecto open source o cómo automatizar la detección de licencias en el código fuente. El corpus de conocimiento puede llegar a ser verdaderamente abrumador, y además, como cualquier organización puede establecer una oficina de este tipo, cada vez hay más experiencias específicas de cada tipo de industria, sean bancos, empresas de tecnología, administraciones públicas o universidades (esto último particularmente en España donde el concepto es mucho más popular que en América Latina) En esta píldora nos concentramos en algunos problemas fundacionales - en algunas de las razones por las que las organizaciones suelen establecer estas oficinas. A fin de cuentas, en las organizaciones ya hay un Dpto. Legal que se encarga de mitigar riesgos, un Dpto. de Finanzas que se encarga de asegurar que las inversiones traigan beneficios y unas prácticas de mejora continua en ingeniería. Y aunque es importante trabajar con todos esos departamentos, cada vez más organizaciones entienden que, a largo plazo, la gobernanza efectiva de las inversiones open source requieren una adaptación cultural de la organización. Y aunque las OSPOs no son la única forma de lograr esto, pues dependerá de la industria, los productos y los actores de la cadena de valor de cada organización, si se invierte en ellas de forma adecuada y por suficiente tiempo, suelen ser catalizadores efectivos de estos cambios culturales. Enlaces de interés : https://github.com/todogroup/awesome-oss-mgmthttps://masalladelainnovacion.com/fosdem-2020-special-edition-in-english/https://allisonrandal.com/2015/07/22/the-future-of-open-source/ https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40914046-how-open-source-ate-software https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54140556-working-in-public Presenta y dirige : José Miguel Parrella Contacto: https://www.mypublicinbox.com/MasAlladelaInnovacion Música: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/ by Kevin McLeod Licencia : Creative Commons (CC BY-NC-SA)

This conversation covers: Laying the groundwork for a successful open-source program office (OSPO). Why legal and engineering are usually the two main stakeholders in open-source projects. Why engineering teams tend to struggle at articulating their perspective on open-source. Tobie offers some improvement tips.  How Tobie defines open-source strategy. Tobie also explains the risk of not having an open-source strategy, as well as his process for helping organizations determine the best strategy for their needs. Common challenges that businesses face when deploying open-source software.  The secondary — or non-code — benefits of open-source, and why many organizations tend to overlook them. Tips for engineers in non-technology organizations like pharmaceuticals or finance to approach business leadership about open-source.  Links UnlockOpen: https://unlockopen.com/  Twitter: https://twitter.com/tobie TranscriptEmily: Hi everyone. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and my day job is helping companies position themselves in the cloud-native ecosystem so that their product's value is obvious to end-users. I started this podcast because organizations embark on the cloud naive journey for business reasons, but in general, the industry doesn't talk about them. Instead, we talk a lot about technical reasons. I'm hoping that with this podcast, we focus more on the business goals and business motivations that lead organizations to adopt cloud-native and Kubernetes. I hope you'll join me.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native. Today, I am talking with Tobie Langel from UnlockOpen, and I wanted to start, Tobie, by just asking, you know, what do you do? Can you give us sort of an introduction to what you do, and how you tend to spend your days?Tobie: Sure. So, I've been back into consulting for a number of years at this point. And I essentially focus on helping organizations align their open-source strategy with business goals. So, it can be both at the project level—so sometimes helping specific projects out—or larger strategy at the corporate level.Emily: So, I actually recently had Nithya Ruff, who's the head of the OSPO at Comcast on the podcast. For listeners who don't know, that's an open-source program office. So, are you sort of an outsourced OSPO for companies that aren't Comcast's size?Tobie: So, that's a really good question. My answer would be no, but it tends to happen that I help companies build that capacity internally. So, I would generally tend to come up before an OSPO is needed, and help them figure out what exactly they need to build. For OSPO, my pet peeve is companies building OSPOs like they need to tick a checkbox on the list of the things that they have to do to be up-to-date with good engineering practices, if you will. In general, if you want to be successful, with an OSPO, it has to meet the particular needs of your company, and that's usually kind of hard to figure out if you just leave it to whoever in the organization is more interested in driving that effort. And so essentially, I sort of help in the early stages of that by bringing all of the stakeholders at the table, and essentially listening to them and making sure that what they want out of an OSPO is aligned between the different stakeholders and matches the overall strategy of the company.Emily: And who are the stakeholders that you're generally talking to?Tobie: So, essentially, open-sources is strange, for one reason, in terms of how it was adopted in companies from a historical perspective. Adopters have always been essentially engineers who just wanted better tools, or the package or the software that best fitted their current intention, and there's a very, very grassroots process by which companies start using open-source. And what happened at some point is companies sorted to see all of the software, and got concerned, and started trying to assess the risk. And so companies just tended to bring in the legal arm and lawyers at this point. And so to fulfill compliance questions, you bring in lawyers, and then the responsibility of grown-up open-source kind of falls on to lawyers, which tends to be problematic from the perspective of good engineering practice and velocity that you want from your engineering and product side in a company. And so clearly, the two stakeholders or the two main stakeholders tend to be legal and engineering, and there tends to be a tension between these two sides. And in lots of companies this tension, instead of being resolved to some degree, tends to be won by the legal side that understands business concerns better and is better able to praise or explain what they do in terms of business impact and business risks than the engineering side. And so this equilibrium tends to create OSPOs which are legal heavy, process heavy, and don't really give engineers the kind of freedom that they would need to be effective in their daily engineering practice. And the reason behind that being essentially over exaggerated risk perception of open-source because, to be frank, open-source is not well taught in legal school and clearly not part of the curricular that most lawyers are familiar with when they move into helping tech companies out. So, essentially, I sort of tried to bridge these two worlds.Emily: I can imagine that being an open-source lawyer, that's a niche, that's a very specific niche.Tobie: Yeah, actually there's a running joke in that community, which is, “As soon as you get your law degree and you're an open-source lawyer, you're one of the 25 best open-source lawyers in the world.”Emily: [laughs]. That's awesome. Why do you think engineering teams are so bad at clearly articulating their perspective on open-source, and what can they do to improve?Tobie: So, there are clearly multiple reasons why engineers aren't the best at articulating how open-source matters. So, I think one of the key ones, it's just, it's something that's part of their daily practice, and they don't really understand and never have been taught the actual intellectual property—IP—impact, that open-source has on their company, and they don't really understand how others in the company might perceive this IP impact. So, I think, one part of it is, essentially, this is just how engineers work. Like, you want to use a piece of software, you put it in it, right? If you want to fix something, well, you do a pull request. This is sort of, like, a common practice. And it's always hard to articulate things that are essentially part of your, like—you know, like a native language, like part of your culture. It's really hard to describe, why you would do this, and why it matters. So, I think that's one reason.The other reason, I think, is that there is a lot of overlap between the way legal works, and the way business works in general. Few examples of that are, engineers tend to think really like in binary way, like, you know, something is true or false, something is on or off, whereas business and law a much more spectrum thinking and into the gray area of things. Similarly, law will share with executive manager's schedule, versus a maker's schedule. So, there's lots of cultural artifacts of law culture in corporations that are much closer to business culture, and so, just a better understanding. So, I don't think engineering is really bad, per se. I think it's just bad when you compare it to legal, essentially.Emily: I mean, and clearly, like, lawyers, their whole training is about making arguments for things that they believe to be true. So.Tobie: Fair enough, but honestly, when you hear engineers talking to one another, that could be said, of engineers, too.Emily: That's fair.Tobie: Your second question was, how can engineers improve that?Emily: Yes.Tobie: And I think that's actually something that they can do and that has way more benefits than just making it easier for them to contribute to open-source, or to have a strong open-source culture at their company. And I think that's essentially focusing on the customer-facing business value, if you will, of what they are building. And if you can start articulating all of what you do in terms of how it affects the business, how it affects end-users or end-customers of your products, it gets way easier to have weight in conversations with other people within an organization that reason about this that way.Emily: And I would imagine this applies not just to making a case for open-source, but everything in engineering. Making a case for using containers, making a case for changing something in your architecture, investing in engineering, hiring a new person—Tobie: Absolutely.Emily: —you have to learn to make the case in terms of the business impact.Tobie: Yeah. It's interesting because we always look as growing up or leveling up as an engineer in terms of actual ability in your craft. But what really makes a difference is how you can leverage your craft to pursue broader goals, organizational goals. And yeah, you're absolutely right that skill set is useful, just, like, across the board. So, are soft skills, by the way, which is another thing that engineering tends to forget about, unfortunately.Emily: So, going back to what you do in crafting open-source strategies, what is an open-source strategy, and what's the risk of not having one?Tobie: So, by strategy, I sort of think about the plan that you have to meet certain goals that you care about meeting. And so an open-source strategy can be widely different depending on what those goals are, and what those organizational goals are. Some companies will have—their main business will be extremely tied to open-source software—you know, think like a company like MongoDB, or Redis, or Mozilla, for example—but for most companies, their business is kind of far away from actually producing open-source software. And so, an open-source strategy for those will be one that is more aligned with, like, how exactly can open-source help our organizations serve our clients better? The same way you would use DevOps to some degree. Or even, like, you know, Cloud, for lack of a better example. So, really, about how can you leverage these tools to help meet organizational goals?Emily: And then what happens if you don't have a strategy?Tobie: Oh, well, what—that's what happens when you're missing a strategy for anything else: you essentially end up at best copying what others are doing—so, you know, you're sort of late to the game—and that worse, just running around aimlessly. If you don't know why you're doing something, you don't know what to measure. And this is true of everything. I mean, this has nothing to do with open-source. You don't know what to measure, you don't know where to invest, you don't know if what you're investing is actually giving you a useful return on investment. You know nothing, and so you're probably better off just not doing anything.Emily: When you meet with these different stakeholders in a company, how do you help them figure out what the best strategy for that particular company is going to be, in relation to open-source?Tobie: So, if we're looking at companies who are not essentially trying to monetize an open-source project, the way I usually start looking at that is looking at what are the current points of frictions? What are the challenges and the problems that a company is facing to run its software, its engineering operations with the kind of performance level that it would want to do? And this can be broadly different things. It could be an organization finds itselfs to be fairly siloed, and finds it really hard to collaborate with teams in different parts of the organization. It could be having a really hard time filling in their hiring pipeline, or having retention issues. There are just plenty of different problems that show up. Then the second thing that we tend to look at is if they had a magic wand, if you will, what would their future look like? What would they want to achieve? And once we have this current situation and future desired state, we look to see at what part of open-source can actually help this transformation. And for that, what I do is I—there's a talk that I've given a number of time, called, “Making the Business Case for Open-Source,” which essentially focuses on all of these different aspects of open-source that are beneficial to companies, which I called byproducts, or second-order benefits of open-source, which is not the output of the code itself, but all of the benefits that having a strong open-source culture brings to a company. And we'll look at those, and we see if there's a good fit.Emily: And how aware do you find business leaders to be about the secondary benefits of open-source? The sort of non-code benefits of open-source?Tobie: Mostly not, honestly. I guess it's actually surprising how few companies get that, outside of the tech giants, by the way. All of the large tech companies understand that really well. Everyone from Google to Microsoft to Facebook to Mozilla, everyone is doubling down on these aspects and knows that open-source is where you tend to find a lot of really good engineers and that open-source really benefits engineers and helps them level up, and helps them build things that are actually, then—end up being really useful internally, like soft skills. I mean, I know that open-source has a really bad rap, and there are reasons for this, and there are lots of things that, as a community in open-source, we have to improve. I don't want to be dismissive of that at all, but if you're actually able to collaborate and get alignment in a large open-source project will you have—you can't go through like your manager to get your manager to speak to the manager of the person that's not complying with whatever it is that you want because it turns out, they're in a completely different company. When you're able to be effective in an environment that is as hostile as that one, once you bring that skill set back internally, you're highly effective. So, these benefits exist, and large tech companies understand these benefits really well. Outside of tech, though, that's not the case. And when you look at the data, it's that's really telling because we have today really good datasets, per industry, of how much different industries use open-source, and frankly, at this point, pretty much there's open-source everywhere, in every industry, and in every project in every industry. But, however, when you look at what industry—what vertical—actually has, built-in, a large, a strong open-source culture and is contributing to open-source, like outside of tech—where it's roughly 50 percent of tech companies contribute to open-source, often on a regular basis, outside of tech I think the closest is finance and financial services, and it's like 12 percent, or like 13 or 14. It's really, really low. So, tech has it, the rest of the world, not yet. And to some degree, that's also why open-source is actually a real accelerator of how companies are able to build the kind of tools that they need to respond to their business needs. It's not by accident that you find that the companies that have the highest growth—market growth as a company are those that are heavily invested in tech and heavily invested in open-source. And so it's not surprising that incumbents from all the verticals are having a much harder time to adapt, and as a result are also, in verticals where there's lots of competition, lots of new players, lots of new startups that are, sort of, like, stealing market share, and disrupting those different markets.Emily: You've said a lot of things that are really interesting. I wanted to ask, though, again, about this idea of helping people develop soft skills because honestly, I had never considered that as an advantage of open-source. Could you just sort of talk a little bit about how that happens, and how individual engineers can use working on open-source projects to develop soft skills, and then how it translates to better success in their employment situation?Tobie: So, if you look at how software is built in a closed-source project, you will essentially be working with your peers. I mean, that's not always the case, but in most cases, people that you can literally, like, turn your chair around and tap on the shoulder to get help. In open-source that's very different. Large open-source projects will have people across lots of time zones, and completely different stakeholders. You will have in the same project, someone that is just passionate about this project and is a teenager in a high school that just really cares about whatever it is that you're working on. You're going to have a bunch of folks in academia, actually using that project to run some data internally or something like that. You will have small companies building plugins on top of it or doing agency work. You will have large corporations leveraging that project. So, you will have this very broad stakeholder set of people with very different backgrounds, very different interests, very different reasons to be involved, essentially. And I mean, just that, just this diversity of background and culture will make you up your communication game because you will not be able to speak to these very different stakeholders. If you want to get something out of them, if you want to review one of their pull requests, if you want to get them to sign the CLA, it's not the same as turning around and tapping your colleague on the shoulder that, unfortunately, tends to be roughly the same skin color, age, and gender as you are in lots of different teams, still today. So, I think that's the first point is just, lots of stakeholders, with lots of different interests, coming from lots of different places.The second bit is, a lot of software is about communicating what you want to do and what you're hoping that they're doing. And that's harder to do in return, frankly, for most people. And it's harder to do, again, when you have sociocultural gaps. So, learning how to do that properly to get alignment on something, this is a skill, you have to learn. Thirdly, the absence of formal leadership in—which is what I was mentioning before—in projects and by formal leadership, I mean, yeah, sure, there's like a technical steering committee, or a [00:21:05 unintelligible], or someone's leading the project, like maintainers and stuff, but they don't get to tell who does what. So, if you want help from someone on a project, you will have to learn how to use your soft skills to do that because you can't make anyone comply to anything. It's this completely soft, smushy thing. We don't really have—you can't hold on to someone and tell them, “Go do this PR now,” or, “Go review this.” You will have to figure out ways of getting people to be involved using a completely different skill set then force compliance. And this is—I mean, I might be cutting corners here, but to me, this is what leadership is about. Leadership is about aligning people in the mission without a whip. And this is precisely what you're doing if you want to do anything in open-source. And this set of skills, once you're back in a company—I mean, any kind of serious project, impactful project in a company will be across multiple teams, multiple orgs, you'll have to get approval from, like, policy, you'll have to go see legal, you'll have to get designers involved, you'll have to get product involved, you'll have to get infrastructure invol—like, all of these organizations that you don't have direct power over, learning this set of skills inside of an open-source project prepares you for this so much.Emily: Interesting. Yeah. You know, you could have a project, and legal could say, “No.” And you don't get to just override what legal says if they say no. You have to have the skills to negotiate a way out of that, basically.Tobie: Yeah, and frankly, I mean, if you look at sort of the career ladder of an engineer, it's essentially around growing your impact inside of an organization or company. And growing your impact, I mean, that is done laterally. It's done by getting others aligned on your vision early in the process. And again, it's interesting because there's lots of parallel between what I'm describing right now and what I do for a lot of my clients, which is to get alignment from all of the different stakeholders along a specific set of goals. And this is only soft skills: it's listening to people, figuring out what their needs are—when legal says, “No,” I mean, no one ever says, “No.” People say, “No,” and they mean, “Oh, this is going to make me too—too big of a cost for me. I don't want to do this right now. It's easier for me to just say, ‘No.' I don't really understand the risks. I don't really understand the value of this project.” I mean, behind the, “No,” there's a bunch of information. And building soft skills lets you have the tools to go figure out what that, “No,” that legal just gave you really is about. And it's way easier to address something like, “Oh, there's actually—I'm concerned about this specific risk at this specific place,” than addressing something that's as vague as, “No. Legal said no.”Emily: And how would you say that an engineer that's, say, in a non—technology company, as in you know, not in the technology vertical, they are in a company that sells cars, or pharmaceuticals, or financial services or whatever, what are the specific ways to to make those business arguments to talk effectively with business leadership?Tobie: So, one of the consultants that is a consultant for consultants, David A. Fields, talks about ‘right side up thinking' and he's essentially talking about, put yourself in the shoes of the people that you're talking about. Understand what it is that they care about, and then have answers to that. Which, to me, is also something that you can build in open-source, but it's essentially listening to people. I mean, there's so many times I've been in a meeting with lawyers about a particular topic for a client or for a company I was working with, where I got out of a meeting with much, much more than I expected, essentially because instead of opening my mouth, I just shut up and listened to what it is that they were concerned about, and really tried to understand from their perspective. And then realize that all of the schemes I had in my head of what it is that they wanted, and the solutions I had for what I thought it was that they wanted, were not necessary at all; what they cared about was something completely different that I just couldn't know about. And so, that would be my biggest suggestion is, just shut up and listen to what people want. Same for customers, by the way. I mean, when you're facing customers, just actually listen to what people say. It doesn't mean that you have to essentially implement precisely what solution they're giving you, but you have to listen to what their problem is. As an expert—and that's true of an engineer in a non-engineer context: the engineer is the expert, but your expertise should be applied to turn the need, the requirement, into something that's implementable. That's its only purpose, really. It shouldn't be about asking people, “Well, so would you want to use PHP or Rails for this?” And then giving them a lecture on both. This is not what someone some business wants to hear about.Emily: Excellent. We are going to go ahead and wrap up pretty soon, but anything else that you would like to add about bridging the gap between business and engineering?Tobie: Yeah, so I think that at the end of the day, what really works is when everyone is aligned, and pulling on the same rope, aligned with the same goals. If you're in a company, where the underlying goals really don't match at all your vision of what you want to do, you're in a bad place, regardless of what vertical that company is in, whether it is a tech or a non-tech company. So, I think that engineers, if they're able to and, again, I mean, not everyone is in position to change job or hop to find a different job, and the job market right now is particularly difficult, but I think that if you want to be happy in your job, you have to make sure that there's alignment. And if there isn't, at least try to carve out areas of alignment. And don't try to win every fight: really go for the things that matter to you that make a difference, and make concessions. Actually, that's the other, for me, the really key point is, make concessions. If things don't really matter to you but make a huge difference for the person that's in front of you, make a concession even if you think it's silly. As engineers, we really have, again, this really binary way of thinking. Admit that there's a lot more to all of this then yes or no, and that there's a whole bunch of area in the middle where people can meet and find agreement, and focus on that stuff.Emily: Excellent. All right, just a couple last questions. What is your favorite engineering tool that you couldn't live without?Tobie: That's an interesting question. I don't think I really have one. I think that's deliberate. My goal would be to be able to jump on a new machine and be effective within seconds, and not have to go through the whole ordeal of having to set everything up just to right for me. So, I tend to try to work with whatever is there. I also don't believe that a good engineer is an engineer that types fast. Actually, I'm a really slow typer, so maybe that's why. But yeah, I really believe that it's not about tooling, it's about all of the other things, and that tooling should come last. So, I don't have any is my answer.Emily: Fabulous. And then where can we listeners connect with you or follow you.Tobie: So, I tweet quite a bit under @tobie. So, T-O-B-I-E. There's lots of politics there, too, so if you believe that tech and politics are not linked, you probably don't want to follow my account. And then there's the website of my consultancy, which is unlockopen.com. So, unlock and open in one word, dot com.Emily: Excellent. All right, well, thank you so much for joining me.Tobie: Well, thank you for having me. This was fun. Thank you so much.Emily: Thanks for listening. I hope you've learned just a little bit more about The Business of Cloud Native. If you'd like to connect with me or learn more about my positioning services, look me up on LinkedIn: I'm Emily Omier—that's O-M-I-E-R—or visit my website which is emilyomier.com. Thank you, and until next time.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.

The conversation covers:  The main function of an OSPO, and why Comcast has one. How Nithya approaches non-technical stakeholders about open-source.  Where the OSPO typically sits in the organizational hierarchy. The risk of ignoring open-source, or ignoring the way that open-source is consumed in an organization. Why every enterprise today is using open-source in some way or another. The relationship between cloud-native and open-source. Some of the major misconceptions about the role of open-source in major companies.  Common mistakes that companies make when setting up OSPOs. Why Nithya and her team rely heavily on the TODO Group in the Linux Foundation. Links: Comcast: https://www.xfinity.com/  Linux Foundation: https://www.linuxfoundation.org/  TODO Group and The New Stack survey: https://thenewstack.io/survey-open-source-programs-are-a-best-practice-among-large-companies/  Trixter GitHub: https://github.com/tricksterproxy/trickster  Kuberhealthy GitHub: https://github.com/Comcast/kuberhealthy  Comcast GitHub: https://comcast.github.io/ Nithya Ruff Twitter: https://twitter.com/nithyaruff  TranscriptEmily: Hi everyone. I'm Emily Omier, your host, and my day job is helping companies position themselves in the cloud-native ecosystem so that their product's value is obvious to end-users. I started this podcast because organizations embark on the cloud naive journey for business reasons, but in general, the industry doesn't talk about them. Instead, we talk a lot about technical reasons. I'm hoping that with this podcast, we focus more on the business goals and business motivations that lead organizations to adopt cloud-native and Kubernetes. I hope you'll join me.Emily: Welcome to The Business of Cloud Native, my name is Emily Omier, and today I'm chatting with Nithya Ruff, and she's joining us from the open source program office at Comcast. Nethya, thank you so much for joining us.Nithya: Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here, Emily. Thank you for inviting me.Emily: I want to start with having you introduce yourself, you run an open source program office. And if you could talk a little bit about what that is, and what you do every day.Nithya: So, just to introduce myself, I started working in open-source back in 1998, when open-source was still kind of new to companies and organizations. And from that point on, I've been working to build bridges between companies using open-source and communities where open-source is created. At Comcast, I have the pleasure of running our open source program office for the company, and I also sit on the board of the Linux Foundation and recently was elected chair. So, it gives me a chance to both look at the community side through the LF and through corporate use of open-source at Comcast.So, you also ask what does an OSPO do? What is an OSPO, and why does Comcast have one? So, an open source program office is a fairly new construct, and it started about 10, 11 years ago, when companies were doing so much open-source that they really couldn't keep track of all of the different areas of open-source usage, contribution, collaboration across their companies. And they felt that they wanted to have a little more coordination, if you will, across all of their developers in terms of policy for use, the process for contribution, and some guidelines around how to comply with open-source licenses and, on a more strategic note, to educate both executives as well as the company in terms of open-source and opportunities from a business engagement and a strategy perspective. So, you find that a lot of large companies typically have open source program offices. And we, frankly, have been using open-source for a very long time as a company, almost since the turn of the century, around 2005. And we started contributing and our number of developers started growing, and we didn't realize that we needed a center of excellence, which is what an open source program office is, where people can come to ask for help on legal matters—meaning compliance and license matters—ask for help in engaging with open-source communities, and generally come for all things open-source; be kind of a concierge service for all things open-source.Emily: And how long has Comcast had an OSPO?Nithya: I came on board in 2017 to start the OSPO, but as I mentioned before, we've done open-source organically throughout the company for many, many more years before I came on board. My coming on board just, kind of, formalized, if you will, the face of open-source work for the company to the outside world.Emily: You know, when we think about open-source in the enterprise, what sort of business opportunities and risks do you have to balance?Nithya: That's a great question. There are lots and lots of great business value and opportunity that companies get from open-source. And the more engaged you are with open-source, the more business value you'll get. So, if you're just consuming open-source, then clearly it reduces the cost of your development, it helps you get to market faster, you're using tried and tested projects that other companies have used and hundreds of developers around the world have used. So, you get a chance to really cut cost and go to market faster. But as you become more sophisticated in collaborating with other companies and contributing open-source back, you start realizing the benefit of, say leveraging a lot of other developers in maintaining code that you've contributed. You may start off at contributing a project, and you are often the only one bearing the burden of that project, and very soon, as it becomes useful to more and more people, you're sharing the burden with others, and you benefit from hundreds of new use cases coming into the code, hundreds of new features and functions coming in which you could never have thought of as a small team yourself. I believe that the quality of code improves when you're going to open-source something, it helps with recruitment and thought leadership because now candidates can actually see the kind of work that you do and the quality of work that you produce, and before that, they would just know that you were in this space, or telecom, or other areas, but they could not see the type of work that you did. And so, to me, from a business value, there's a tremendous amount of business value that companies get. On the risk side is the fact that you need to use it correctly, meaning you need to understand the license; you need to understand how you're combining your code with the proprietary code in your company; you need to understand if the code is coming from a good community, meaning a healthy community that is here to stay, and that has a good cadence of releases and is vibrant from an activity perspective; you need to also understand that you need to be engaged with the open-source community and understand where that particular project is going and to be able to sit at the table to influence or contribute to the positive direction of that project, and sustainability of that project. So, if you just consume and don't engage, or don't understand the license implications or contribute, I think you're not getting all of the value and you risk being considered a poor citizen in the community. And frankly, if people don't collaborate with you or cooperate with you, sending a patch upstream may take months to be accepted, as opposed to someone who's part of the community, who's accepted, who's seen as a good citizen. So, I think you've got to invest correctly through either an open source program office or a really intentional and thoughtful program to engage with the community in order to really mitigate risk, but also get the full benefit of working with open-source.Emily: And what do you find you have to educate the non-engineering stakeholders about, so the business leadership when you're talking about open-source?Nithya: That's also a very important function of an OSPO in my mind, is really making sure you have executive sponsorship and business buy-in for why open-source is a key part of the innovation process in the company. Because as you correctly said, there is a level of investment one needs to make, whether it is in an OSPO or in the compliance function, or for engineers to take the time to upstream their patches or to engage with communities. It all takes investment of time and money. And business needs to buy into why this is a benefit for the company, why this is a benefit for the business. And very often, I find that leadership gets it. In fact, some of my best sponsors and champions are executives. Our CTO, Matt Zelesko, completely gets why open-source is important for the business innovation, competitive advantage. And so, also my boss Jon Moore gets it. And I found that in a previous company where I was starting an open source program office, I had to work a little harder because it was a hardware company and they did not understand how working in open-source would fit into the engineering priorities. And so we had to, kind of, share more about how it allowed us to optimize software for our hardware, how it allowed us to influence certain key dependencies that we had in our product process, and that customers were asking for more open-source based software on our product. So, yes, building the business case is extremely important, and having sponsors at the business is extremely important. The other key constituent is legal, and working with your legal team hand-in-hand, and understanding their role in assessing risk and sharing risk with you, and your role as a business saying, “Is this an acceptable risk that I want to take on? And how do I work with this risk, but still get the benefits?” is as important. We have a great legal team here, and they work very closely with us, so we act as the first line of questions for our developers. And should they have any questions about, “Should I use this license? Or should I combine this license with this?” we then try to give them as many answers as we can, and then we escalate it to legal to bring them into the discussion as well. So, we act as a liaison between us and legal. So, to your point, it is important for the business to understand. And the OSPO does a great job in many of my companies that I've worked with to educate and keep business informed of what's happening on the open-source side.Emily: You mentioned working with developers; what is the OSPO's relationship with the actual developers on the team?Nithya: So, we don't have many developers on our team. In my OSPO, I have one developer who helps us with the automation and functioning of the open source program office tools and processes. Most of us are program managers, and community managers, and developer relations managers. The developers are our customer. So, I think of the developers in Comcast as our customer, and that we are advocates for them. And their need to use open-source in a frictionless way in their development process as our objective. So, we've worked very, very hard to make sure that the information they need, the processes they need are well oiled, and that they can focus on their core priority, which is getting products to market to really help our customers. And they don't need to become experts at compliance, they don't need to become experts at any of the functions that we do. We see them as our customer, so we act as advocates.Emily: Where exactly in the organizational hierarchy, or structure is the OSPO? Is it part of the engineering team?Nithya: Yes. I think that is the best place for an OSPO reside because you really are living with the engineering organization, and you're understanding their pain points, and you're understanding the struggles that they have, and what they need to accomplish, and their deadlines, et cetera. So, we live in the product and technology organization, under our CTO, who's also part of the engineering organization. So, I find that the best OSPOs typically reside in engineering or the CTO office, there are some that reside in legal or marketing. And whenever you decide, it tends to flavor the focus of your work. For us, the focus of our work is how can we help our developers be the best developers and use the best open-source components and techniques to get their work done?Emily: And what do you see is the risk that organizations take if they ignore open-source, they don't have this, sort of, conscientious investment in either an OSPO or some other way to manage the way open-source is consumed?Nithya: This is how I would put it. Everything that you see in technology development today, a lot of the software that we consume, whether it's from vendors, or through the Cloud—public cloud, private cloud—is made up of open-source software. There's a ton—I would say, almost 50, 60 percent of infrastructure software, especially data center, cloud, et cetera, is often open-source software. So, if you don't know the dependencies you have, if you don't know the stack that you're using and what components you have, you're working blindly. And you don't know if one of those stack's components is going to go away or going to change direction. So, you really need to be cognizant of knowing what you're using, and what your dependencies are and making sure that you're working with those open-source communities to stay on top of your dependencies. You're also missing out on really collaborating with other companies to solve common problems, solve them more effectively, more collaboratively. It's a competitive advantage, frankly, and if you don't intentionally implement some sort of an OSPO, or at least someone is tagged with directing OSPO type of work in the company, you're missing out on getting the best benefits of open-source.Emily: Do you think there are any enterprises that don't use open-source?Nithya: No. I believe that every single enterprise, knowingly or unknowingly, have some amount of open-source in their product, or in their tools, or in their infrastructure somewhere.Emily: And what percentage of enterprises have—this is obviously just going to be your best guess, but what percentage of enterprises have an OSPO?Nithya: I think it's a small percentage. New Stack and the TODO Group do a very, very good survey. I would refer us to that survey. And that gives you a sense of how many companies have an OSPO. I believe it's something like 45, 50 percent have OSPOs, and then another 10, 15 percent, say we intend to start one in the next two to three years. And then there's another, I don't know 30 percent that say, I have no intention of starting one. And the reason may be because they have a group of volunteers or part-time people across their organization who are fulfilling those functions between their legal team, and a couple of expert developers, and their communications team, they may think that they have solved the problem, so they don't need to have a specialized function to do this.Emily: I wanted to ask a little bit about the relationship between cloud-native and open-source. What do you see as that relationship?Nithya: If you ask anyone—and this is my opinion as well—that cloud-native technologies are very open-source-based. Look at Kubernetes, or Prometheus, or any of the technologies under the CNCF umbrella, or under any of the cloud-native areas, you find that most of them have their roots, or are created in the open-source way of development. So, it is an integral part of participation in cloud-native is knowing how to collaborate in an open-source way. So, it makes a lot of sense that CNCF is under the Linux Foundation, and it operates like an open-source project with governance, and technical body, and contributors. So, for us as well, being a cloud company—or a company that uses Cloud to host our infrastructure, and also a user of public cloud, we think that knowledge of open-source and how to work with open-source helps us work more effectively with the cloud ecosystem. And we have contributed components like Trickster, which is a Prometheus dashboard acceleration component. We've also contributed something called Kuberhealthy, which allows you to really orchestrate across Kubernetes clusters to open-source because we know that that's the way to function, and influence, and if you will, kind of take advantage of the ecosystems in the cloud-native technology stack. So, cloud-native is all built on open-source. So, that's the relationship in my mind.Emily: Yeah. I mean, I think actually, the Linux Foundation defines cloud-native as built on open-source software. I forget the exact words.Nithya: Yep. I think so, too.Emily: What do you think are some misconceptions out there, particularly among the enterprise users, about open-source and about the role of open-source in a major company?Nithya: There are a number of misconceptions. And we talked and touched upon a few before, but I think it's worth repeating it because you need to confront these misconceptions and start engaging with open-source if you want to compete with the other companies in your industry, who all are becoming digital companies and are digitally transformed. And they need to work with open-source as part of their digital framework. So, one of the misconceptions is that vendor-supplied software or products don't have any open-source in them. In fact, a lot of vendor-supplied software, maybe even from Microsoft has some open-source in them. Even from Apple, for example. If you look at the disclosure notices, you'll see that all of them consume open-source. So, whether you like it or not, there is open-source and you need to understand and manage it. The second is not knowing what your engineers are downloading and using, and hence what you're dependent upon as a company, and whether those components are healthy, and whether those communities are doing the right thing. You need to understand what you're using. It's like a chef: you need to know your components, and the quality of the food that you create will depend upon the components you use. You'll also need to understand licenses and watch needed to comply with those licenses, and need to put process in place to comply with those licenses. You also need to give back; it's not enough to just consume and not contribute back things like bug fixes, patches, and changes you make because you end up carrying all of that load with you as technical debt if you don't upstream it. And, frankly, you also consume, so you should give back as well. It's not sufficient to just take but not give. The last one is that open-source is free. And so, many people are attracted to open-source because they think, “Ah. I don't have to pay any license fees. I can just get it, I can run it anywhere I want, and I can change it,” et cetera. But the fact of the matter is if you want to use it correctly, you do need to invest in a team that knows how to support itself, knows how to work with the community to get patches or make change happen, you need to build that knowledge in the house, and you do need to have some cost of ownership associated with using open-source. So, these are some of the major misconceptions that I see in companies that are not engaging with open-source.Emily: And what do you see as, in your experience, some of the mistakes that companies can make, even when they're in the process of setting up an OSPO? What have you learned—maybe what mistakes have you made that you wish you could go back in time and undo—and what advice would you give to somebody who was thinking about setting up an OSPO?Nithya: Couple of mistakes that come to mind is releasing a piece of code that's not been well thought through, or properly documented, or with the correct license. And you find that you get a lot of criticism for poor quality code, or poorly released projects. You end up not having anyone wanting to work with the project or contributing to the project, so the very intent of getting it out there so that others could use and collaborate with you is lost. And then sometimes companies have also made announcements saying that they want to release a particular piece of software, and they backtrack and they change their mind and they say, “No, we're not going to release it anymore.” And that looks really poor in the community because there are people who are depending upon it or wanting it, and it can affect the reputation of a company. There was one more thing which I was going to say is, is really not being a good player. For instance, keeping a lot of the conversations inside the company, in terms of governing a project or roadmap for a project, and not being transparent and sharing the direction of the project or where it's going with the community. For an open-source project, is really bad. It can affect how you're perceived and how you're trusted or not trusted in the community. So, it's important to understand the norms of open-source, which is transparency, collaboration, contribute small pieces often, versus dumping a big piece of code or surprising the community. So, all of these things are important to consider. And, frankly, an OSPO, helps you really understand how community behaves: we often do a lot of education on how to work with community inside the company, and we also represent the company's interests in communities and foundations and say, “This is where we are going. This is where we need your help.” And the more transparent you are, the better you can work with community. So, those are some areas where I've seen companies go wrong.Emily: And when a developer who works at Comcast contributes to a project is he or she contributing as an individual or as part of the company? And how is that, sort of, almost, tension navigated?Nithya: Most companies have a policy that any work that you do during your workday or on work equipment, is company property, right? And so it's copyrighted as Comcast, and most of our developers will contribute things under their Comcast email id. And that's fairly normal in the industry. And there are times when developers want to do work on their own time for their own pet projects, and they can do it under their personal emails and their personal equipment. So, that's where the industry draws the line. Of course, there are some companies that are very loose about this type of demarcation, and some companies are incredibly tight depending upon the industry they're in, regulated versus high tech. But we are very encouraging of our developers to contribute code, whether on their own time or during company time, and we make the process extremely easy. We have a very lightweight process where they submit a request to contribute, and the OSPO shepherds that contribution through legal, through security, through other technical reviewers, and all in the interest of making sure we provide guardrails for the developer so that he or she does it successfully and looks good when they make the contribution. So, 95 percent of the time, we approve requests for contributions. So, very, very rarely do we say, “This is not approved,” because we think it's the right thing to do to give back and to share some of the work that we do with others, just like we get the benefit of using others' work.Emily: Is there anything else that you want to add about what OSPOs do, what they bring to the business, the relationship between cloud-native and open-source, anything that I haven't thought to ask that I should have?Nithya: The OSPO, if you will, is a horizontal function that cuts across the entire enterprise development and helps coordinate and direct the intelligent and judicious use of open-source. So, that's why it touches all of the software development tools, apps, vendor-supplied software, public clouds, internal clouds, et cetera. Wherever open-source is used, which is everywhere, we touch it. And we also serve as the external face of the company to the open-source community so that the open-source community has one place that they can come to for questions, or to give feedback on something they're doing, or to ask a license question, or to ask for sponsorship or support for a conference or a foundation. So, it really makes open-source navigation very, very effective for the community, as well as for inside the company. So, I'm a huge, huge fan of OSPO. I also love running an OSPO, and the kind of people that are typically in an OSPO. They tend to be very versatile, very general, they can pivot from legal to development matters to marketing and communications to really assisting a developer navigate something challenging. So, they're very versatile and terrific type of people. They also tend to have very high EQ and tend to make sure that they have a service mentality when they take care of questions that come in. So, I would say an OSPO is a great role for someone who wants to help and wants to know the breadth of software development.Emily: It sounds like you're making a recruitment pitch.Nithya: Uh, yeah. I don't have any openings right now, but I'm always encouraging and mentoring other OSPOs. I do at least one or two consultations with other OSPOs because we enjoy what we do as an OSPO and we want to help other OSPOs be successful.Emily: I mean, is it hard to find people to work in OSPOs?Nithya: It's kind of hard, in the sense that there are not too many people who do this work. So, I know, practically, I know all of the OSPO leadership and people who do this line of work in the industry. And it takes—some who come from a developer background. They have grown up as a developer using open-source and know the pains that they faced inside their company using open-source and not having certain processes or certain support or tools, and they go out to change the world in that way. I came from a different direction. I came from strategy and product management, and I came with the notion of, “How do I connect the dots better across the organization? How do I make sure that people know what to do and how to build relationships?” So, I came from that perspective. Frankly, I think it's something that innately people have, which is the ability to absorb a lot of different types of knowledge and connect the dots and work to change things. You don't have to be born in open-source to be a good OSPO person. You just need to have a desire to help developers.Emily: Was there any tools—it doesn't, obviously, have to be a software development tool, but any tools that you could not do your work without?Nithya: More than tools, I would say the organization that we rely on very heavily is the TODO Group in the Linux Foundation because it is a group of other OSPO people. And so it's been a great exchange of ideas and support, and tips, and best practices. The couple of tools that we use very, very heavily, and the love using, clearly, is something like GitHub or GitLab which helps you coordinate and collaborate on software development and documentation, et cetera. The other tool we use a lot to build community inside the company is things like Slack, or Slack equivalents because it helps you create communities of interest. So, when we are doing something around CNCF, we have a CNCF channel. We have a very, very large open-source channel that people come in and ask questions, and the whole community gets involved in helping them. So, I would say those are two really good tools that I like, and we use a lot in our function. And the TODO Group I think is a fabulous organization.Emily: And where should listeners go to learn more and/or to follow or connect with you?Nithya: There are two places I would say. comcast.github.io is where we publish all of our open-source projects, and you can see the statement we make about open-source. We also feature job openings at Comcast as well as our Innovation Fund, which is a grant-based fund request, so people can make a request for us to contribute money towards their project, or to research. And I'm on Twitter at @nithyaruff.Emily: Well, thank you so much, Nithya. This has been really fabulous.Nithya: Thanks, Emily. And thank you for helping me share my enthusiasm for what an open-source office is, and why everybody needs one.Emily: Thanks for listening. I hope you've learned just a little bit more about The Business of Cloud Native. If you'd like to connect with me or learn more about my positioning services, look me up on LinkedIn: I'm Emily Omier—that's O-M-I-E-R—or visit my website which is emilyomier.com. Thank you, and until next time.Announcer: This has been a HumblePod production. Stay humble.