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Tyler and I spoke about view quakes from fiction, Proust, Bleak House, the uses of fiction for economists, the problems with historical fiction, about about drama in interviews, which classics are less read, why Jane Austen is so interesting today, Patrick Collison, Lord of the Rings… but mostly we talked about Shakespeare. We talked about Shakespeare as a thinker, how Romeo doesn't love Juliet, Girard, the development of individualism, the importance and interest of the seventeenth century, Trump and Shakespeare's fools, why Julius Cesar is over rated, the most under rated Shakespeare play, prejudice in The Merchant of Venice, Shakespeare as an economic thinker. We covered a lot of ground and it was interesting for me throughout. Here are some excerpts. Full transcript below.Henry Some of the people around Trump now, they're trying to do DOGE and deregulation and other things. Are there Shakespearean lessons that they should be bearing in mind? Should we send them to see the Henriad before they get started?Tyler Send them to read the Henriad before they get started. The complicated nature of power: that the king never has the power that he needs to claim he does is quite significant. The ways in which power cannot be delegated, Shakespeare is extremely wise on. And yes, the DOGE people absolutely need to learn those lessons.Henry The other thing I'd take from the Henriad is time moves way quicker than anyone thinks it does. Even the people who are trying to move quite quickly in the play, they get taken over very rapidly by just changing-Tyler Yes. Once things start, it's like, oh my goodness, they just keep on running and no one's really in control. And that's a Shakespearean point as well.And.Henry Let's say we read Shakespeare in a modern English version, how much are we getting?Tyler It'll be terrible. It'll be a negative. It will poison your brain. So this, to me, will be highly unfortunate. Better to learn German and read the Schlegel than to read someone turning Shakespeare into current English. The only people who could do it maybe would be like the Trinidadians, who still have a marvelous English, and it would be a completely different work. But at least it might be something you could be proud of.Transcript (prepared by AI)Henry Today, I am talking to Tyler Cowen, the economist, blogger, columnist, and author. Tyler works at George Mason University. He writes Marginal Revolution. He is a columnist at Bloomberg, and he has written books like In Praise of Commercial Culture and The Age of the Infovore. We are going to talk about literature and Shakespeare. Tyler, welcome.Tyler Good to chat with you, Henry.Henry So have you ever had a view quake from reading fiction?Tyler Reading fiction has an impact on you that accumulates over time. It's not the same as reading economics or philosophy, where there's a single, discrete idea that changes how you view the world. So I think reading the great classics in its entirety has been a view quake for me. But it's not that you wake up one morning and say, oh, I turned to page 74 in Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain, and now I realize that, dot, dot, dot. That's a yes and a no for an answer.Henry So you've never read Bleak House and thought, actually, I do see things slightly differently about Victorian London or the history of the –?Tyler Well, that's not a view quake. Certainly, that happens all the time, right? Slightly differently how you see Victorian London. But your overall vision of the world, maybe fiction is one of the three or four most important inputs. And again, I think it's more about the entirety of it and the diversity of perspectives. I think reading Proust maybe had the single biggest impact on me of any single work of fiction if I had to select one. And then when I was younger, science fiction had a quite significant impact on me. But I don't think it was the fictional side of science fiction that mattered, if that makes sense to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was the models embodied in the stories, like, oh, the three laws of robotics. Well, I thought, well, what should those laws be like? I thought about that a good deal. So that would be another part of the qualified answer.Henry And what was it with Proust? The idea that people only care about what other people think or sexuality or consciousness?Tyler The richness of the internal life, the importance of both expectation and memory, the evanescence of actual events, a sense of humor.Henry It showed you just how significant these things are.Tyler And how deeply they can be felt and expressed. That's right. And there were specific pages early on in Swan's Way where it just hit me. So that's what I would say. Bleak House, I don't think, changed my views at all. It's one of my three or four favorite novels. I think it's one of the great, great, greats, as you have written yourself. But the notion that, well, the law is highly complex and reality is murky and there are all these deep mysteries, that all felt very familiar to me. And I had already read some number of newer sort of pseudo-Victorian novels that maybe do those themes in a more superficial way, but they introduce those themes to you. So you read Bleak House and you just say, well, I've imbibed this already, but here's the much better version of it.Henry One of the things I got from Bleak House, which it took me a couple of reads to get to, was how comfortable Dickens was with being quite a rational critic of the legal system and quite a credulous believer in spontaneous combustion and other things.Tyler Did Dickens actually believe in spontaneous combustion or is that a plot device? Like Gene Roddenberry doesn't actually believe in the transporter or didn't, as far as weHenry know. No, I think he believed. Yeah. Yeah. He defends it in the preface. Yeah.Tyler So it's not so confusing that there's not going to be a single behavioral model that captures deviations from rationality. So you end up thinking you ought to travel more, you ought to take in a lot of diverse different sources about our human beings behave, including from sociology, from anthropology. That makes it harder to be an economist, I would say it scatters your attention. You probably end up with a richer understanding of reality, but I'm not sure it's good for your research. It's probably bad for it.Henry It's not a good career move.Tyler It's not good for focus, but focus maybe can be a bit overrated.Henry Why are you more interested in fiction than other sort of people of a broadly rational disposition?Tyler Well, I might challenge the view that I'm of a broadly rational disposition. It's possible that all humans are roughly equally irrational, madmen aside, but if you mean the rationality community as one finds it in San Francisco, I think they're very mono in their approach to reasoning and that tends to limit the interests of many of them, not all, in fiction and travel. People are regional thinkers and in that region, San Francisco, there is incredible talent. It's maybe the most talented place in the world, but there's not the same kind of diversity of talents that you would find in London or New York and that somehow spreads to the broader ethos and it doesn't get people interested in fiction or for that matter, the visual arts very much.Henry But even in London, if I meet someone who's an economist or has an economics degree or whatever, the odds that they've read Bleak House or something are just so small.Tyler Bleak House is not that well read anymore, but I think an economist in London is likely to be much more well read than an economist in the Bay Area. That would be my prediction. You would know better than I would.Henry How important has imaginative literature been to you relative to other significant writers like philosophers or theoretical economists or something?Tyler Well, I'm not sure what you mean by imaginative literature. I think when I was 17, I read Olaf Stapleton, a great British author and Hegelian philosopher, and he was the first and first man and star maker, and that had a significant impact on me. Just how many visions you could put into a single book and have at least most of them cohere and make sense and inspire. That's one of the most imaginative works I've ever read, but people mean different things by that term.Henry How objectively can we talk about art?Tyler I think that becomes a discussion about words rather than about art. I would say I believe in the objective when it comes to aesthetics, but simply because we have no real choice not to. People actually, to some extent, trust their aesthetic judgments, so why not admit that you do and then fight about them? Trying to interject some form of extreme relativism, I think it's just playing a game. It's not really useful. Now, is art truly objective in the final metaphysical sense, in the final theory of the universe? I'm not sure that question has an answer or is even well-formulated, but I would just say let's just be objectivists when it comes to art. Why not?Henry What is wrong with historical fiction?Tyler Most of it bores me. For instance, I don't love Hilary Mantel and many very intelligent people think it's wonderful. I would just rather read the history. It feels like an in-between thing to me. It's not quite history. It's not quite fiction. I don't like biopics either when I go to the cinema. Yeah, I think you can build your own combination of extremes from history and fiction and get something better.Henry You don't have any historical fiction that you like, Penelope Fitzgerald, Tolstoy?Tyler Any is a strong word. I don't consider Tolstoy historical fiction. There's a historical element in it, as there is with say Vassily Grossman's Life and Fate or actually Dickens for that matter, but it's not driven by the history. I think it's driven by the characters and the story. Grossman comes somewhat closer to being historical fiction, but even there, I wouldn't say that it is.Henry It was written so close to the events though, right?Tyler Sure. It's about how people deal with things and what humanity means in extreme circumstances and the situations. I mean, while they're more than just a trapping, I never feel one is plodding through what happened in the Battle of Stalingrad when I read Grossman, say.Henry Yeah. Are there diminishing returns to reading fiction or what are the diminishing returns?Tyler It depends what you're doing in life. There's diminishing returns to most things in the sense that what you imbibe from your teen years through, say, your 30s will have a bigger impact on you than most of what you do later. I think that's very, very hard to avoid, unless you're an extreme late bloomer, to borrow a concept from you. As you get older, rereading gets better, I would say much better. You learn there are more things you want to read and you fill in the nooks and crannies of your understanding. That's highly rewarding in a way where what you read when you were 23 could not have been. I'm okay with that bargain. I wouldn't say it's diminishing returns. I would say it's altering returns. I think also when you're in very strange historical periods, reading fiction is more valuable. During the Obama years, it felt to me that reading fiction was somewhat less interesting. During what you might call the Trump years, and many other strange things are going on with AI, people trying to strive for immortality, reading fiction is much more valuable because it's more limited what nonfiction can tell you or teach you. I think right now we're in a time where the returns to reading more fiction are rapidly rising in a good way. I'm not saying it's good for the world, but it's good for reading fiction.Henry Do you cluster read your fiction?Tyler Sometimes, but not in general. If I'm cluster reading my fiction, it might be because I'm cluster reading my nonfiction and the fiction is an accompaniment to that. Say, Soviet Russia, I did some reading when I was prepping for Stephen Kotkin and for Russ Roberts and Vasili Grossman, but I don't, when it comes to fiction per se, cluster read it. No, I don't think you need to.Henry You're not going to do like, I'm reading Bleak House, so I'll do three other 1852 novels or three other Dickens novels or something like that.Tyler I don't do it, but I suspect it's counterproductive. The other Dickens novels will bore you more and they'll seem worse, is my intuition. I think the question is how you sequence works of very, very high quality. Say you just finished Bleak House, what do you pick up next? It should be a work of nonfiction, but I think you've got to wait a while or maybe something quite different, sort of in a way not different, like a detective story or something that won't challenge what has been cemented into your mind from Bleak House.Henry Has there been a decline of reading the classics?Tyler What I observe is a big superstar effect. I think a few authors, such as Jane Austen and Shakespeare, are more popular. I'm not completely sure they're more read, but they're more focal and more vivid. There are more adaptations of them. Maybe people ask GPT about them more. Really quite a few other works are much less read than would have been the case, say as recently as the 1970s or 1980s. My guess is, on the whole, the great works of fiction are much less read, but a few of them achieve this oversized reputation.Henry Why do you think that is?Tyler Attention is more scarce, perhaps, and social clustering effects are stronger through the internet. That would just be a guess.Henry It's not that we're all much more Jane Austen than we used to be?Tyler No, if anything, the contrary. Maybe because we're less Jane Austen, it's more interesting, because in, say, a Jane Austen novel, there will be sources of romantic tension not available to us through contemporary TV shows. The question, why don't they just sleep together, well, there's a potential answer in a Jane Austen story. In the Israeli TV show, Srugim, which is about modern Orthodox Jews, there's also an answer, but in most Hollywood TV, there's no answer. They're just going to sleep together, and it can become very boring quite rapidly.Henry Here's a reader question. Why is the market for classics so good, but nobody reads them? I think what they're saying is a lot of people aren't actually reading Shakespeare, but they still agree he's the best, so how can that be?Tyler A lot of that is just social conformity bias, but I see more and more people, and I mean intellectuals here, challenging the quality of Shakespeare. On the internet, every possible opinion will be expressed, is one way to put it. I think the market for classics is highly efficient in the following sense, that if you asked, say, GPT or Claude, which are the most important classics to read, that literally everything listed would be a great book. You could have it select 500 works, and every one of them would really be very good and interesting. If you look at Harold Bloom's list at the back of the Western canon, I think really just about every one of those is quite worthwhile, and that we got to that point is, to me, one of the great achievements of the contemporary world, and it's somewhat under-praised, because you go back in earlier points of time, and I think it's much less efficient, the market for criticism, if you would call it that.Henry Someone was WhatsAppping me the other day that GPT's list of 50 best English poets was just awful, and I said, well, you're using GPT4, o1 gives you the right list.Tyler Yeah, and o1 Pro may give you a slightly better list yet, or maybe the prompt has to be better, but it's interesting to me how many people, they love to attack literary criticism as the greatest of all villains, oh, they're all frustrated writers, they're all post-modernists, they're all extreme left-wingers. All those things might even be true to some extent, but the system as a whole, I would say completely has delivered, and especially people on the political and intellectual right, they often don't realize that. Just any work you want to read, if you put in a wee bit of time and go to a shelf of a good academic library, you can read fantastic criticism of it that will make your understanding of the work much better.Henry I used to believe, when I was young, I did sort of believe that the whole thing, oh, the Western canon's dying and everyone's given up on it, and I'm just so amazed now that the opposite has happened. It's very, very strong.Tyler I'm not sure how strong it is. I agree its force in discourse is strong, so something like, well, how often is it mentioned in my group chats? That's strongly rising, and that delights me, but that's a little different from it being strong, and I'm not sure how strong it is.Henry In an interview about your book Talent, you said this, “just get people talking about drama. I feel you learn a lot. It's not something they can prepare for. They can't really fake it. If they don't understand the topic, you can just switch to something else.”Tyler Yeah, that's great advice. You see how they think about how people relate to each other. It doesn't have to be fiction. I ask people a lot about Star Wars, Star Trek, whatever it is they might know that I have some familiarity with. Who makes the best decisions in Star Wars? Who gives the best advice? Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke, Darth Vader, the Emperor?Henry It's a tough question.Tyler Yeah, yeah.Henry I don't know Star Wars, so I couldn't even answer that.Tyler You understand that you can't fake it. You can't prepare for it. It does show how the person thinks about advice and also drama.Henry Right. Now, you're a Shakespeare fan.Tyler Well, fan is maybe an understatement. He's better. He deserves better than fans.Henry How much of time, how much of your life have you spent reading and watching this work?Tyler I would say most of the plays from, say, like 1598 or 99 and after, I've read four to five times on average, some a bit more, some like maybe only three times. There's quite a few I've only read once and didn't like. Those typically are the earlier ones. When it comes to watching Shakespeare, I have to confess, I don't and can't understand it, so I'm really not able to watch it either on the stage or in a movie and profit from it. I think I partially have an auditory processing disorder that if I hear Shakespeare, you know, say at Folger in DC, I just literally cannot understand the words. It's like listening to Estonian, so I've gone some number of times. I cannot enjoy what you would call classic Shakespeare movies like Kenneth Branagh, Henry V, which gets great reviews, intelligent people love it. It doesn't click for me at all. I can't understand what's going on. The amount of time I've put into listening to it, watching it is very low and it will stay low. The only Shakespeare movies I like are the weird ones like Orson Welles' Chimes at Midnight or Baz Luhrmann's Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet. I think they're fantastic, but they're not obsessed with reciting the text.Henry So, you're reading with notes and you're piecing it together as you go.Tyler I feel the versions in my head are better than anything I see on the screen also, so that's another reason. I just think they're to be read. I fully understand that's not how Shakespeare seemed to view them, but that's a way in which we readers, in a funny way, can improve on Shakespeare's time.Henry No, I agree with you. The thing I get the most pushback about with Shakespeare is when I say that he was a great thinker.Tyler He's maybe the best thinker.Henry Right. But tell us what you mean by that.Tyler I don't feel I can articulate it. It's a bit like when o3 Pro gives you an answer so good you don't quite appreciate it yourself. Shakespeare is like o7 Pro or something. But the best of the plays seem to communicate the entirety of human existence in a way that I feel I can barely comprehend and I find in very, very little else. Even looking at other very great works such as Bleak House, I don't find it. Not all of the plays. There's very, very good plays that don't do that. Just say Macbeth and Othello. I don't feel do that at all. Not a complaint, but something like Hamlet or King Lear or Tempest or some of the comedies. It's just somehow all laid out there and all inside it at the same time. I don't know any other way of putting it.Henry A lot of people think that Shakespeare is overrated. We only read him because it's a status game. We've internalized these snobbish values. We see this stated a lot. What's your response to these people?Tyler Well, I feel sorry for them. But look, there's plenty of things I can't understand. I just told you if I go to see the plays, I'm completely lost. I know the fault is mine, so to speak. I don't blame Shakespeare or the production, at least not necessarily. Those are people who are in a similar position, but somehow don't have enough metarationality to realize the fault is on them. I think that's sad. But there's other great stuff they can do and probably they're doing it. That's fine.Henry Should everyone read Shakespeare at school?Tyler If you say everyone, I resist. But it certainly should be in the curriculum. But the real question is who can teach it? But yeah, it's better than not doing it. When I was in high school, we did Taming of the Shrew, which I actually don't like very much, and it put me off a bit. We did Macbeth, which is a much better play. But in a way, it's easy to teach. Macbeth, to me, is like a perfect two-minute punk rock song. It does something. It delivers. But it's not the Shakespeare that puts everything on the table, and the plot is easy to follow. You can imagine even a mediocre teacher leading students through it. It's to me still a little underwhelming if that's what we teach them. Then finally, my last year, we did Hamlet, and I'm like, whoa, okay, now I get it. Probably we do it wrong in a lot of cases, would be my guess. What's wrong with the Taming of the Shrew? It's a lot of yelling and screaming and ordinary. To me, it's not that witty. There's different views, like is it offensive to women, offensive to men? That's not my main worry. But those questions, I feel, also don't help the play, and I just don't think Shakespeare was fully mature when he wrote it. What was the year on that? Do you know offhand?Henry It's very early.Tyler It's very early. Very early, yeah. So if you look at the other plays that surround it, they're also not as top works. So why should we expect that one to be?Henry What can arts funding learn from the Elizabethan and Jacobean theatres?Tyler Current arts funding? I don't think that much. I think the situation right now is so different, and what we should do so depends on the country, the state, the province, the region. Elizabethan times do show that market support at art can be truly wonderful. We have plenty of that today. But if you're just, say, appointed to be chair of the NEA and you've got to make decisions, I'm not sure how knowing about Elizabethan theatre would help you in any direct way.Henry What do you think of the idea that the long history of arts funding is a move away from a small group, an individual patronage where taste was very important, towards a kind of institutional patronage, which became much more bureaucratic? And so one reason why we keep arguing about arts funding now is that a lot of it exhibits bad taste because the committee has to sort of agree on various things. And if we could reallocate somewhat towards individual patronage, we'd do better.Tyler I would agree with the latter two-thirds of that. How you describe earlier arts funding I think is more complicated than what you said. A lot of it is just people doing things voluntarily at zero pecuniary cost, like singing songs, songs around the campfire, or hymns in church, rather than it being part of a patronage model. But I think it's way overly bureaucratized. The early National Endowment for the Arts in the 1960s just let smart people make decisions with a minimum of fuss. And of course we should go back to that. Of course we won't. We send half the money to the state's arts agencies, which can be mediocre or just interested in economic development and a new arts center, as opposed to actually stimulating creativity per se. More over time is spent on staff. There are all these pressures from Congress, things you can't fund. It's just become far less effective, even though it spends somewhat more money. So that's a problem in many, many countries.Henry What Shakespeare critics do you like reading?Tyler For all his flaws, I still think Harold Bloom is worthwhile. I know he's gotten worse and worse as a critic and as a Shakespeare critic. Especially if you're younger, you need to put aside the Harold Bloom you might think you know and just go to some earlier Bloom. Those short little books he edited, where for a given Shakespeare play he'll collect maybe a dozen essays and write eight or ten pages at the front, those are wonderful. But Bradley, William Hazlitt, the two Goddard volumes, older works, I think are excellent. But again, if you just go, if you can, to a university library, go to the part on the shelf where there's criticism on a particular play and just pull down five to ten titles and don't even select for them and just bring those home. I think you'll learn a lot.Henry So you don't like The Invention of the Human by Bloom?Tyler Its peaks are very good, but there's a lot in it that's embarrassing. I definitely recommend it, but you need to recommend it with the caveat that a lot of it is over the top or bad. It doesn't bother me. But if someone professional or academic tells me they're totally put off by the book, I don't try to talk them out of that impression. I just figure they're a bit hopelessly stuck on judging works by their worst qualities.Henry In 2018, you wrote this, “Shakespeare, by the way, is Girard's most important precursor. Also throw in the New Testament, Hobbes, Tocqueville, and maybe Montaigne.” Tell us what you mean by that.Tyler That was pretty good for me to have written that. Well, in Shakespeare, you have rivalrous behavior. You have mimetic desire. You have the importance of twinning. There's ritual sacrifice in so many of the plays, including the political ones. Girard's title, Violence and the Sacred, also comes from Shakespeare. As you well know, the best Gerard book, Theater of Envy, is fully about Shakespeare. All of Girard is drenched with Shakespeare.Henry I actually only find Girard persuasive on Shakespeare. The further I get away from that, the more I'm like, this is super overstated. I just don't think this is how humans ... I think this is too mono-explanation of humans. When I read the Shakespeare book, I think, wow, I never understood Midsummer Night's Dream until I read Girard.Tyler I think it's a bit like Harold Bloom. There's plenty in Girard you can point to as over the top. I think also for understanding Christianity, he has something quite unique and special and mostly correct. Then on other topics, it's anthropologically very questionable, but still quite stimulating. I would defend it on that basis, as I would Harold Girard.Henry No, I like Gerard, but I feel like the Shakespeare book gets less attention than the others.Tyler That's right. It's the best one and it's also the soundest one. It's the truly essential one.Henry How important was Shakespeare in the development of individualism?Tyler Probably not at all, is my sense. Others know more about the history than I do, but if I think of 17th century England, where some strands of individualist thought come from, well, part of it is coming from the French Huguenots and not from Shakespeare. A lot of it is coming from the Bible and not from Shakespeare. The levelers, John Locke, some of that is coming from English common law and not from Shakespeare. Then there's the ancient world. I don't quite see a strong connection to Shakespeare, but I'd love it if you could talk me into one.Henry My feeling is that the 1570s are the time when diaries begin to become personal records rather than professional records. What you get is a kind of Puritan self-examination. They'll write down, I said this, I did this, and then in the margin they'll put, come back and look at this and make sure you don't do this again. This new process of overhearing yourself is a central part of what Shakespeare's doing in his drawing. I think this is the thing that Bloom gets right, is that as you go through the plays in order, you see the very strong development of the idea that a stock character or someone who's drawing on a tradition of stock characters will suddenly say, oh, I just heard myself say that I'm a villain. Am I a villain? I'm sort of a villain. Maybe I'm not a villain. He develops this great art of self-referential self-development. I think that's one of the reasons why Shakespeare became so important to being a well-educated English person, is that you couldn't really get that in imaginative literature.Tyler I agree with all that, but I'm not sure the 17th century would have been all that different without Shakespeare, in literary terms, yes, but it seemed to me the currents of individualism were well underway. Other forces sweeping down from Europe, from the further north, competition across nations requiring individualism as a way of getting more wealth, the beginnings of economic thought which became individualistic and gave people a different kind of individualistic way of viewing the world. It seems so over-determined. Causally, I wouldn't ascribe much of a role to Shakespeare, but I agree with every sentence you said and what you said.Henry Sure, but you don't think the role of imaginative literature is somehow a fundamental transmission mechanism for all of this?Tyler Well, the Bible, I think, was quite fundamental as literature, not just as theology. So I would claim that, but keep in mind the publication and folio history of Shakespeare, which you probably know better than I do, it's not always well-known at every point in time by everyone.Henry I think it's always well-known by the English.Tyler I don't know, but I don't think it's dominant in the way that, say, Pilgrim's Progress was dominant for a long time.Henry Sure, sure, sure. And you wouldn't then, what would you say about later on, that modern European liberalism is basically the culture of novel reading and that we live in a society that's shaped by that? Do you have the same thing, like it's not causal?Tyler I don't know. That's a tricky question. The true 19th century novel I think of as somewhat historicist, often nationalist, slightly collectivist, certainly not Marxist, but in some ways illiberal. And so many of the truly great novel writers were not so liberal. And the real liberal novels, like Mancini's The Betrothed, which I quite enjoy, but it's somewhat of a slight work, right? And it might be a slight work because it is happy and liberal and open-minded. There's something about the greatest of creators, they tend to be pessimistic or a bit nasty or there's some John Lennon in them, there's Jonathan Swift, Swift, it's complicated. In some ways he's illiberal, but he's considered a Tory and in many ways he's quite an extreme reactionary. And the great age of the novel I don't think of is so closely tied to liberalism.Henry One of the arguments that gets made is like, you only end up with modern European liberalism through a culture where people are just spending a lot of time reading novels and imagining what it is like to be someone else, seeing from multiple different perspectives. And therefore it's less about what is the quote unquote message of the story and more about the habitual practice of thinking pluralistically.Tyler I think I would be much more inclined to ascribe that to reading newspapers and pamphlets than novels. I think of novels as modestly reactionary in their net impact, at least in the 19th century. I think another case in point, not just Tolstoy, Thomas Mann, one of the great novelists, had bad politics, right, was through Germany in the first world war. So if you look at the very greatest novels, there's something a bit problematic about many of their creators. They're not Nazis, they're not Stalinists, but they're not where I'm at either.Henry Now in 2017, a lot of people were complaining about Donald Trump as Julius Caesar and there was some farce about a production, I think it was put on in New York or DC maybe. And you said, no, no, no, he's not Caesar. He's more like a Shakespearean fool because he's the truth teller. What do you think of that view now?Tyler That was a Bloomberg column I wrote, I think in 2017. And I think that's held up quite well. So there's many criticisms of Trump that he's some kind of fascist. I don't think those have held up very well. He is a remarkable orator, coiner of phrase, coiner of insults, teller of truths, combined with a lot of nonsense and just nonsense talk, like the Covfefe tweet or whatever it was. And there's something tragic about Trump that he may well fail even by his own standards. He has a phenomenal sense of humor. I think people have realized that more and more. The fact that his popularity has persisted has forced a lot of people to reexamine just Trump as an individual and to see what a truly unique talent he is, whether you like him as your president or not. And that, I think, is all Shakespearean.Henry Some of the people around Trump now, they're trying to do DOGE and deregulation and other things. Are there Shakespearean lessons that they should be bearing in mind? Should we send them to see the Henriad before they get started?Tyler Send them to read the Henriad before they get started. The complicated nature of power: that the king never has the power that he needs to claim he does is quite significant. The ways in which power cannot be delegated, Shakespeare is extremely wise on. And yes, the DOGE people absolutely need to learn those lessons.Henry The other thing I'd take from the Henriad is time moves way quicker than anyone thinks it does. Even the people who are trying to move quite quickly in the play, they get taken over very rapidly by just changing-Tyler Yes. Once things start, it's like, oh my goodness, they just keep on running and no one's really in control. And that's a Shakespearean point as well.Henry Yeah. Here's another quote from the Bloomberg column, “given Shakespeare's brilliance in dramatizing the irrational, one of my biggest fears is that Shakespeare is indeed still a thinker for our times.” Has that come more true in recent years?Tyler I think more true. So from my point of view, the world is getting weirder in some very good ways and in some very bad ways. The arbitrary exercise of power has become more thinkable. You see this from Putin. We may see it from China. In the Middle East, it's happened as well. So the notion also that rulers can be their own worst enemies or human beings can be their own worst enemies. I think we see more when the world is volatile than when the world is stable, almost definitionally.Henry You once said Julius Caesar was an overrated play. Tell us why.Tyler You know, I read it again after I wrote that and it went up in my eyes. But I suppose I still think it's a bit overrated by people who love it. It's one of these mono plays like Macbeth or Othello. It does one thing very, very well. I think the mystical elements in it I had underappreciated on earlier readings and the complexity of the characters I had underappreciated. So I feel I was a little harsh on it. But I just wouldn't put it in the underrated category. Julius Caesar is such a well-known historical figure. It's so easy for that play to become focal. And Brutus and, you know, the stabbing, the betrayal, it's a little too easy for it to become famous. And I guess that's why I think within the world of Shakespeare fans, it still might be a little overrated.Henry It's written at a similar time to Hamlet and Twelfth Night, and I think it gets caught up in the idea that this was a great pivotal moment for Shakespeare. But actually I agree, over the years I've come to think it's really just not the equal of the other plays it's surrounded by.Tyler Yeah, that's still my view. Absolutely. Not the equal of those two, certainly.Henry What is the most underrated play?Tyler I'm not sure how they're all rated. So I used to think Winter's Tale, clearly. But I've heard so many people say it's the most underrated, including you, I think. I don't know if I can believe that anymore. So I think I have to go with The Henriad, because to me that's the greatest thing Shakespeare ever did. And I don't think it's commonly recognized as such. I mean, Hamlet or King Lear would typically be nominated. And those are top, top, top, top. But I'll still go with The Henriad.Henry You are saying Henriad above Hamlet, above Lear, above Twelfth Night.Tyler Maybe it's not fair because you have multiple plays, right? What if, you know, there were three Hamlets? Maybe that would be better. But still, if I have to pick, no one of The Henriad comes close to Hamlet. But if you can consider it as a whole in the evolution of the story, for me it's a clear winner. And it's what I've learned the most from. And a problem with Hamlet, not Shakespeare's fault, but Hamlet became so popular you hear lesser versions of themes and ideas from Hamlet your whole life. It's a bit like seeing Mondrian on the shopping bag. That does not happen, really, with The Henriad. So that has hurt Hamlet, but without meaning it's, you know, a lesser play. King Lear, you have less of that. It's so bleak and tragic. It's harder to put on the shopping bag, so to speak. In that sense, King Lear has held up a bit better than Hamlet has.Henry Why do you admire The Winter's Tale so much? What do you like about it?Tyler There's some mysterious sense of beauty in it that even in other Shakespearean plays I don't feel. And a sense of miracle and wonder, also betrayal and how that is mixed in with the miracle and wonder. Somehow he makes it work. It's quite an unlikely play. And the jealousy and the charge of infidelity I take much more seriously than other readers of the play do. I don't think you can say there's a Straussian reading where she clearly fooled around on the king. But he's not just crazy, either. And there are plenty of hints that something might have happened. It's still probably better to infer it didn't happen. But it's a more ambiguous play than it is typically read as.Henry Yes, someone said to me, ask if he thinks Hermione has an affair. And you're saying maybe.Tyler Again, in a prediction market, I'll bet no, but we're supposed to wonder. We're not supposed to just think the king is crazy.Henry I know you don't like to see it, but my view is that because we believe in this sudden jealousy theory, it's often not staged very well. And that's one reason why it's less popular than it ought to be.Tyler I've only seen it once. I suspect that was true. I saw it, in fact, last year. And the second half of the play was just awful. The first half, you could question. But it was a painful experience. It was just offensively stupid. One of the great regrets of my life is I did not drive up to New York City to see Bergman present his version of Winter's Tale in Swedish. And I'm quite sure that would have been magnificent and that he would have understood it very deeply and very well. That was just stupid of me. This was, I think, in the early 90s. I forget exactly when.Henry I think that's right. And there's a theater library where if you want to go and sit in the archive, you can see it.Tyler I will do that at some point. Part of my worry is I don't believe their promise. I know you can read that promise on the internet, but when you actually try to find the person who can track it down for you and give you access, I have my doubts. If I knew I could do it, I would have done it by now.Henry I'll give you the email because I think I actually found that person. Does Romeo actually love Juliet?Tyler Of course not. It's a play about perversion and obsession and family obligation and rebellion. And there's no love between the two at all. And if you read it with that in mind, once you see that, you can't unsee it. So that's an underrated play. People think, oh, star-crossed teen romance, tragic ending, boo-hoo. That's a terrible reading. It's just a superficial work of art if that's what you think it is.Henry I agree with you, but there are eminent Shakespeare professors who take that opinion.Tyler Well maybe we're smarter than they are. Maybe we know more about other things. You shouldn't let yourself be intimidated by critics. They're highly useful. We shouldn't trash them. We shouldn't think they're all crummy left-wing post-modernists. But at the end of the day, I don't think you should defer to them that much either.Henry Sure. So you're saying Juliet doesn't love Romeo?Tyler Neither loves the other.Henry Okay. Because my reading is that Romeo has a very strong death drive or dark side or whatever.Tyler That's the strong motive in the play is the death drive, yeah.Henry And what that means is that it's not his tragedy, it's her tragedy. She actually is an innocent young girl. Okay, maybe she doesn't love him, it's a crush or it's whatever, but she actually is swept up in the idea of this handsome stranger. She can get out of her family. She's super rebellious. There's that wonderful scene where she plays all sweetness and light to her nurse and then she says, I'm just lying to you all and I'm going to get out of here. Whereas he actually is, he doesn't have any romantic feeling for her. He's really quite a sinister guy.Tyler Those are good points. I fully agree. I still would interpret that as she not loving him, but I think those are all good insights.Henry You've never seen it staged in this way? You've never seen any one?Tyler The best staging is that Baz Luhrmann movie I mentioned, which has an intense set of references to Haitian voodoo in Romeo and Juliet when you watch the movie. The death drive is quite clear. That's the best staging I know of, but I've never seen it on the stage ever. I've seen the Zeffirelli movie, I think another film instance of it, but no, it's the Haitian voodoo version that I like.Henry He makes it seem like they love each other, right?Tyler In a teenage way. I don't feel that he gets it right, but I feel he creates a convincing universe through which the play usefully can be viewed.Henry The Mercutio death, I think, is never going to be better than in that film. What do you like about Antonin Cleopatra?Tyler It's been a long time since I've read that. What a strong character she is. The sway people can exercise over each other. The lines are very good. It's not a top Shakespeare favorite of mine, but again, if anyone else had done it, you would just say this is one of the greatest plays ever, and it is.Henry I think it's going to be much more of a play for our times because many people in the Trump administration are going to have that. They're torn between Rome and Egypt, as it were, and the personal conflicts are going to start getting serious for them, if you like.Tyler There's no better writer or thinker on personal conflict than Shakespeare, right?Henry Yes. Now, you do like Measure for Measure, but you're less keen on All's Well That Ends Well. Is that right?Tyler I love Measure for Measure. To me, it's still somewhat underrated. I think it's risen in status. All's Well That Ends Well, I suspect you need to be good at listening to Shakespeare, which as I've already said, I'm not. It's probably much better than I realize it is for that reason. I'm not sure on the printed page it works all that well.Henry Yeah. That's right. I think it's one of the most important plays. Why? Because I think there are two or three basic factors about Shakespeare's drama, which is like the story could often branch off in different directions. You often get the sense that he could swerve into a different genre. The point Samuel Johnson made about whenever someone's running off to the tavern, someone else is being buried, right? And a lot of the time he comes again and again to the same types of situations, the same types of characters, the same types of family set up. And he ends the plays in different ways and he makes it fall out differently. And I think Helena is very representative of a lot of these facets. Everyone thinks she's dead, but she's not dead. Sometimes it looks like it's going badly for her when actually it's going well. No one in the play ever really has an honest insight into her motives. And there comes a point, I think, when just the overall message of Shakespeare's work collectively is things go very wrong very quickly. And if you can get to some sort of happy ending, you should take it. You should be pragmatic and say, OK, this isn't the perfect marriage. This isn't the perfect king. But you know what? We could be in a civil war. Everyone could be dead. All's well that ends well. That's good advice. Let's take it.Tyler I should reread it. Number one in my reread pile right now is Richard II, which I haven't read in a long time. And there's a new biography out about Richard II. And I'm going to read the play and the biography more or less in conjunction. And there's a filming of Richard II that I probably won't enjoy, but I'll try. And I'm just going to do that all together, probably sometime over this break. But I'll have all's well that ends well is next on my reread list. You should always have a Shakespeare to reread list, right?Henry Always. Oh, of course. Is Shakespeare a good economic thinker?Tyler Well, he's a great thinker. I would say he's better than a good economic thinker. He understands the motive of money, but it's never just the motive of money. And Shakespeare lowers the status of economic thinking, I would say, overall, in a good way. He's better than us.Henry What are your thoughts on The Merchant of Venice?Tyler Quite underrated. People have trouble with it because it is very plausibly anti-Semitic. And everyone has to preface any praise they give it with some kind of disavowal or whatever. The way I read the play, which could be wrong, but it's actually more anti-anti-Semitic than it is anti-Semitic. So the real cruel mean people are those who torment the Jew. I'm not saying Shakespeare was not in some ways prejudiced against Jews and maybe other groups, but actually reading it properly should make people more tolerant, not because they're reacting against Shakespeare's anti-Semitism, but because the proper message of the play understood at a deeper level is toleration.Henry You teach a law and literature class, I think.Tyler Well, I did for 20 years, but I don't anymore.Henry Did you teach Merchant of Venice?Tyler I taught it two or three times, yes.Henry How did your students react to it?Tyler Whenever I taught them Shakespeare, which was actually not that much, they always liked it, but they didn't love it. And there's some version of Shakespeare you see on the screen when it's a decent but not great filmed adaptation where there's the mechanics of the plot and you're held in suspense and then there's an ending. And I found many of them read Shakespeare in those terms and they quite enjoyed it, but somehow they didn't get it. And I think that was true for Merchant of Venice as well. I didn't feel people got hung up on the anti-Semitism point. They could put that aside and just treat it as a play, but still I didn't feel that people got it.Henry Should we read Shakespeare in translation?Tyler Well, many people have to. I've read some of the Schlegel translations. I think they're amazing. My wife, Natasha, who grew up in the Soviet Union, tells me there are very good Russian language translations, which I certainly believe her. The Schlegels are different works. They're more German romantic, as you might expect, but that's fine, especially if you know the original. My guess is there are some other very good translations. So in that qualified way, the translations, a few of them can be quite valuable. I worry that at some point we'll all need to read it in some sort of translation, as Chaucer is mostly already true for Chaucer. You probably don't have to read Chaucer in translation, but I do.Henry I feel like I shouldn't read it in translation, I think.Tyler But you do, right? Or you don't?Henry No, I read the original. I make myself do the original.Tyler I just can't understand the original well enough.Henry But I put the time in when I was young, and I think you retain a sense of it. Do you think, though, if we read, let's say we read Shakespeare in a modern English version, how much are we getting?Tyler It'll be terrible. It'll be a negative. It will poison your brain. So this, to me, will be highly unfortunate. Better to learn German and read the Schlegel than to read someone turning Shakespeare into current English. The only people who could do it maybe would be like the Trinidadians, who still have a marvelous English, and it would be a completely different work. But at least it might be something you could be proud of.Henry I'd like to read some of that. That would be quite an exciting project.Tyler Maybe it's been done. I don't know. But just an Americanized Hollywood version, like, no, that's just a negative. It's destructive.Henry Now, you're very interested in the 17th century, which I think is when we first get steady economic growth, East India Company, England is settling in America.Tyler Political parties. Some notion of the rule of law. A certain theory of property rights. Very explicit individualism. Social contract theories. You get Hobbes, Isaac Newton, calculus. We could go on. Some people would say, well, Westphalia, you get the modern nation state. That to me is a vaguer date to pin that on. But again, it's a claim you can make of a phenomenal century. People aren't that interested in it anymore, I think.Henry How does Shakespeare fit into this picture?Tyler Well, if you think of the years, if you think of the best ones, they start, like what, 1598, 1599. And then by 1600, they're almost all just wonderful. He's a herald. I don't think he's that causal. But he's a sign, the first totally clear sign that all the pieces have fallen into place. And we know the 17th century gave us our greatest thinker. And in terms of birth, not composition, it gave us our greatest composer, Bach.Henry So we can't have Shakespeare without all of this economic and philosophic and political activity. He's sort of, those things are necessary conditions for what he's doing.Tyler He needed the 16th century, and there's some very good recent books on how important the 16th century was for the 17th century. So I think more and more, as I read more, I'll come to see the roots of the 17th and the 16th century. And Shakespeare is reflecting that by bridging the two.Henry What are the recent books that you recommend about the 16th century?Tyler Oh, I forget the title, but there's this book about Elizabethan England, came out maybe three or four years ago, written by a woman. And it just talks about markets and commerce and creativity, surging during that time. In a way, obvious points, but she put them together better than anyone else had. And there's this other new German book about the 16th century. It's in my best of the year list that I put up on Marginal Revolution, and I forget the exact title, but I've been reading that slowly. And that's very good. So I expect to make further intellectual moves in that direction.Henry Was Shakespeare anti-woke?Tyler I don't know what that means in his context. He certainly understands the real truths are deeper, but to pin the word anti on him is to make him smaller. And like Harold Bloom, I will refuse to do that.Henry You don't see some sense in which ... A lot of people have compared wokeness to the Reformation, right? I mean, it's a kind of weak comparison.Tyler Yes, but only some strands of it. You wouldn't say Luther was woke, right?Henry But you don't see some way in which Shakespeare is, not in an anti way, in a complicated way, but like a reaction against some of these forces in the way that Swift would be a reaction against certain forces in his time.Tyler Well I'm not even sure what Shakespeare's religion was. Some people claim he was Catholic. To me that's plausible, but I don't know of any clear evidence. He does not strike me as very religious. He might be a lapsed Catholic if I had to say. I think he simply was always concerned with trying to view and present things in a deeper manner and there were so many forces he could have been reacting against with that one. I don't know exactly what it was in the England of his time that specifically he was reacting against. If someone says, oh, it was the strand of Protestant thought, I would say fine, it might have been that. A la Peter Thiel, couldn't you say it's over determined and name 47 other different things as well?Henry Now, if you were talking to rationalists, effective altruists, people from Silicon Valley, all these kinds of groups, would you say to them, you should read Shakespeare, you should read fiction, or would you just say, you're doing great, don't worry that you're missing out on this?Tyler Well, I'm a little reluctant to just tell people you should do X. I think what I've tried to do is to be an example of doing X and hope that example is somewhat contagious. Other people are contagious on me, as for instance, you have been. That's what I like to do. Now, it's a question, if someone needs a particular contagion, does that mean it's high marginal value or does it mean, in some sense, they're immue from the bug and you can't actually get them interested? It can go either way. Am I glad that Peter Singer has specialized in being Peter Singer, even though I disagree with much of it? I would say yes. Peter had his own homecoming. As far as I know, it was not Shakespearean, but when he wrote that book about the history of Vienna and his own family background, that was in a sense Peter doing his version of turning Shakespearean. It was a good book and it deepened his thought, but at the end of the day, I also see he's still Peter Singer, so I don't know. I think the Shakespearean perspective itself militates a bit against telling people they should read Shakespeare.Henry Sure. Patrick Collison today has tweeted about, I think, 10 of the great novels that he read this year. It's a big, long tweet with all of his novels.Tyler Yeah, it's wonderful.Henry Yeah, it's great. At the end, he basically says the reason to read them is just that they're great. Appreciation of excellence is a good thing for its own sake. You're not going to wrench a utilitarian benefit out of this stuff. Is that basically your view?Tyler I fully agree with that, but he might slightly be underrating the utilitarian benefits. If you read a particular thing, whatever it is, it's a good way of matching with other people who will deepen you. If it's Shakespeare, or if it's science fiction, or if it's economics, I think there's this big practical benefit from the better matching. I think, actually, Patrick himself, over time in his life, he will have a different set of friends, somewhat, because he wrote that post, and that will be good.Henry There's a utilitarian benefit that we both love Bleak House, therefore we can talk about it. This just opens up a lot of conversation and things for us that we wouldn't otherwise get.Tyler We're better friends, and we're more inclined to chat with each other, do this podcast, because we share that. That's clearly true in our case. I could name hundreds of similar cases, myself, people I know. That's important. So much of life is a matching problem, which includes matching to books, but also, most importantly, matching to people.Henry You're what? You're going to get better matching with better books, because Bleak House is such a great book. You're going to get better opportunities for matching.Tyler Of course, you'll understand other books better. There's something circular in that. I get it. A lot of value is circular, and the circle is how you cash in, not leaving the circle, so that's fine.Henry You don't think there's a ... I mean, some of the utilitarian benefits that are claimed like it gives you empathy, it improves your EQ or whatever, I think this is all complete rubbish.Tyler I'd love to see the RCTs, but in the prediction markets, I'll bet no. But again, I have an open mind. If someone had evidence, they could sway me, but I doubt it. I don't see it.Henry But I do think literature is underrated as a way of thinking.Tyler Yes, absolutely, especially by people we are likely to know.Henry Right. And that is quite a utilitarian benefit, right? If you can get yourself into that mindset, that is directly useful.Tyler I agree. The kind of career I've had, which is too complicated to describe for those of you who don't know it, but I feel I could not have had it without having read a lot of fiction.Henry Right. And I think that would be true for a lot of people, even if they don't recognize it directly in their own lives, right?Tyler Yes. In Silicon Valley, you see this huge influence of Lord of the Rings. Yes. And that's real, I think. It's not feigned, and that's also a great book.Henry One of the best of the 20th century, no doubt.Tyler Absolutely. And the impact it has had on people still has. It's an example of some classics get extremely elevated, like Shakespeare, Austen, and also Tolkien. It's one of them that just keeps on rising.Henry Ayn Rand is quite influential.Tyler Increasingly so. And that has held up better than I ever would have thought. Depends on the book. It's complicated, but yes, you have to say, held up better than one ever would have thought.Henry Are you going to go and do a reread?Tyler I don't think I can. I feel the newspaper is my reread of Atlas Shrugged, that suffices.Henry Is GPT good at Shakespeare, or LLMs generally?Tyler They're very useful for fiction, I've found. It was fantastic for reading Vassily Grossman's Life and Fate. I have never used them for Shakespeare, not once. That's an interesting challenge, because it's an earlier English. There's a depth in Shakespeare that might exceed current models. I'd love to see a project at some point in time to train AI for Shakespeare the way some people are doing it for Math Olympiads. But finding the human graders would be tough, though not impossible. You should be one of them. I would love that. I hope some philanthropist makes that happen.Henry Agreed. We're here, and we're ready.Tyler Yes, very ready.Henry What do you think about Shakespeare's women?Tyler The best women in all of fiction. They're marvelous, and they're attractive, and they're petulant, and they're romantic, and they're difficult, and they're stubborn, or whatever you want, it's in there. Just phenomenal. It's a way in which Shakespeare, again, I don't want to say anti-woke, but he just gives you a much deeper, better vision than the wokes would give you. Each one is such a distinctive voice. Yeah, fantastic. In a funny way, he embodies a lot of woke insights. The ways in which gender becomes malleable in different parts of stories is very advanced for his time.Henry It's believable also. The thing that puzzles me, so believable. What puzzles me is he's so polyphonic, and he represents that way of thinking so well, but I get the sense that John Stuart Mill, who wrote the Bentham essay and everything, just wasn't that interested in Shakespeare relative to the other things he was reading.Tyler He did write a little bit on Shakespeare, didn't he? But not much. But it wasn't wonderful. It was fine, but not like the Bentham Coleridge.Henry I think I've seen it in letters where he's like, oh, Shakespeare, pretty good. This, to me, is a really weird gap in the history of literature.Tyler But this does get to my point, where I don't think Shakespeare was that important for liberalism or individualism. The people who were obsessed with Shakespeare, as you know, were the German romantics, with variants, but were mostly illiberal or non-liberal. That also, to me, makes sense.Henry That's a good point. That's a good challenge. My last question is, you do a lot of talent spotting and talent assessing. How do you think about Shakespeare's career?Tyler I feel he is someone I would not have spotted very well. I feel bad about that. We don't know that much about him. As you well know, people still question if Shakespeare was Shakespeare. That's not my view. I'm pretty orthodox on the matter. But what the signs would have been in those early plays that he would have, say, by so far have exceeded Marlowe or even equaled Marlowe, I definitely feel I would have had a Zoom call with him and said, well, send me a draft, and read the early work, and concluded he would be like second-tier Marlowe, and maybe given him a grant for networking reasons, totally missed the boat. That's how I assess, how I would have assessed Shakespeare at the time, and that's humbling.Henry Would you have been good at assessing other writers of any period? Do you think there are other times when you would have?Tyler If I had met young Thomas Mann, I think there's a much greater chance I would have been thrilled. If I had met young Johann Sebastian Bach, I think there's a strong chance I would have been thrilled. Now, music is different. It's like chess. You can excel at quite a young age. But there's something about the development of Shakespeare where I think it is hard to see where it's headed early on. And it's the other question, how would I have perceived Shakespeare's work ethic? There's different ways you could interpret the biography here. But the biography of Bach, or like McCartney, clearly just obsessed with work ethic. You could not have missed it if you met young Bach, I strongly suspect. But Shakespeare, it's not clear to me you would see the work ethic early on or even later on.Henry No, no. I agree with that, actually.Tyler Same with Goethe. If I met early Goethe, my guess is I would have felt, well, here's the next Klopstock, which is fine, worthy of a grand. But Goethe was far more than that. And he always had these unfinished works. And you would, oh, come on, you're going to finish this one. Like you'd see Werther. OK, you made a big splash. But is your second novel just going to bomb? I think those would have been my hesitations. But I definitely would have funded Goethe as the next Klopstock, but been totally wrong and off base.Henry Right. And I think the thing I took away from the A.N. Wilson biography, which you also enjoyed recently, was I was amazed just how much time Goethe didn't spend working. Like I knew he wasn't always working, but there was so much wasted time in his life.Tyler Yes, but I do wonder with that or any biography, and I don't mean this as a criticism of Wilson, I think we know much less than we think we do about earlier times in general. So he could have been doing things that don't turn up in any paperwork. Sure, sure, sure. So I'm not sure how lazy he was, but I would just say, unlike Bach or say Paul McCartney, it's not evident that he was the world's hardest worker.Henry And Mozart, would you have? How do you feel about Mozart's early career?Tyler Well, Mozart is so exceptional, so young, it's just very easy to spot. I don't I don't even think there's a puzzle there unless you're blind. Now, I don't love Mozart before, I don't know, like the K-330s maybe, but still as a player, even just as a lower quality composer, I think you would bet the house on Mozart at any age where you could have met him and talked to him.Henry So you think K-100s, you can see the beginnings of the great symphonies, the great concertos?Tyler Well, I would just apply the Cowen test at how young in age was this person trying at all? And that would just dominate and I wouldn't worry too much about how good it was. And if I heard Piano Concerto No. 9, which is before K-330, I'm pretty sure that's phenomenal. But even if I hadn't heard that, it's like this guy's trying. He's going to be on this amazing curve. Bet the house on Mozart. It's a no-brainer. If you don't do that, you just shouldn't be doing talent at all. He's an easy case. He's one of the easiest cases you can think of.Henry Tyler Cowen, this was great. Thank you very much.Tyler Thank you very much, Henry. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.commonreader.co.uk/subscribe

In this episode of the LetsRun.com Track Talk Podcast, the hosts Jonathan Galt, Robert, and Weldon Johnson dive into the latest news in the world of track and field. They discuss the recent London then turn to the Paris Olympics and it's crazy marathon course. NBC's sprint analyst Ato Boldon joins at 57:51 to break down all things Paris Olympics 100m through 800m. Ato's got hot takes on Noah Lyles, Kenny Bednarek, Sha'Carri Richardson, and even Michael Johnson. Join the Supporters Club today and use code GOAT50 to save 50% Join our Supporters Club today and get all the LetsRun.com content, including daily podcasts from the Olympics, savings on running shoes, and a lot more. Cancel at anytime. https://www.letsrun.com/subscribe 0:00 Olympic Sprint Preview with Ato Boldon 00:32 50% off Supporters Club with code GOAT50 at letsrun.com/subscribe 01:30 Intro 12:44 Keely 1:54, Athing Mu 2:00 17:14 Men's 1500m Talk - Danny Mackey/Josh Kerr update 22:29 Hocker vs Nuguse 29:57 Sub 4 minute mile in Olympic marathon? 37:15 1924 Olympic XC 40:14 Kipchoge's chances/update 47:31 Noah Lyles most to gain and lose in Paris? 52:49 Bekele 57:51 Ato Boldon guest 58:22 Men's 100 01:10:24 Men's 200 01:17:23 Men's 400 01:19:43 Are Michael Norman and Michael Johnson proof every sprinter wants to run the 100? 01:21:42 Dennis Mitchell 01:23:37 Men's 400m hurdles -Benjamin or Warholm? 01:26:24 Men's 110m hurdles & Grant Holloway 01:27:57 Women's 100 01:29:55 2022 false starts 01:32:09 Shericka 01:35:19 Shelly-Ann Fraser-Pryce 01:37:38 Elaine Thompson Herah 01:40:03 Women's 200 01:42:03 Women's 400 01:45:22 Women's 100 hurdles 01:48:36 Bobby Kersee 800m coach? 01:49:35 Sydney and Women's 400m hurdles 01:55:01 Men's 800 01:57:21 Women's 800 01:58:19 Bonus segment- Ato's first race, Jamaicans, Trinidadians and Americans yelling at him Contact us: Email podcast@letsrun.com or call/text 1-844-LETSRUN podcast voicemail/text line. Join the Supporters Club today and use code GOAT50 to save 50% Join our Supporters Club today and get all the LetsRun.com content, including daily podcasts from the Olympics, savings on running shoes, and a lot more. Cancel at anytime. https://www.letsrun.com/subscribe Check out the LetsRun.com store. https://shop.letsrun.com/ We've got the softest running shirts in the business. Thanks for listening. Please rate us on itunes and spread the word with a friend. There is a reason we're the #1 podcast dedicated to Olympic level running. Find out more at http://podcast.letsrun.com

Welcome to the Instant Trivia podcast episode 1234, where we ask the best trivia on the Internet. Round 1. Category: Margaret Me 1: She led Britain through the 1980s. Margaret Thatcher. 2: I'll get you to name this "Wizard of Oz" actress, my pretty. Margaret Hamilton. 3: Princess Margaret was born in 1930, 4 years after this sister. Elizabeth II. 4: Margaret Burbidge was the first woman to head up this royal observatory. Greenwich. 5: She coined the term "birth control". Margaret Sanger. Round 2. Category: Science Vocabulary 1: "Specific" this is the ratio of a substance's density to that of a standard substance, often water. gravity. 2: It's the resistance that opposes the motion of one surface across another. friction. 3: From a word meaning "insect", it's the study of bugs. entomology. 4: Acone-shapeddeposit ofcalcium saltsthat builds upfrom a cave floor. stalagmite. 5: This adjective from the Greek for "moving" describes the mechanical energy of an object due to motion. kinetic. Round 3. Category: We'Re A North American Band! 1: In 1973 Mammoth thought it cheaper to hire David Lee Roth as a singer than rent his P.A. system; Mammoth became this in '74. Van Halen. 2: This trio sang, "Today's Tom Sawyer, he gets high on you, and the space he invades, he gets by on you". Rush. 3: B-b-b-baby, name this band that topped the charts in 1974"You ain't seen nothin' yet /B-b-b-baby, you just ain't seen nothin' yet /Here's something, here's...". Bachman-Turner Overdrive. 4: This Canadian band was "watchin' 'X-Files' with no lights on, we're dans la maison, I hope the Smoking Man's in this one". Barenaked Ladies. 5: Gordon Gano sang, "I like American music" as the lead singer of this Milwaukee group. the Violent Femmes. Round 4. Category: Current Governors 1: George Pataki. New York. 2: Christine Todd Whitman. New Jersey. 3: Gray Davis. California. 4: Frank Keating. Oklahoma. 5: Tommy Thompson. Wisconsin. Round 5. Category: Trinidad 1: Trinidad's Pitch Lake is a natural lake of this black substance used to surface roads. Tar/asphalt. 2: In 1889 this Caribbean island was joined politically to Trinidad. Tobago. 3: This form of folk music popularized by Belafonte originated in Trinidad. Calypso. 4: U.S.O.C. president Leroy Walker, not Runner, once coached this Trinidadian Olympic team. track and field. 5: What the Trinidadians call Shango, the Haitians call this. Voodoo. Thanks for listening! Come back tomorrow for more exciting trivia!Special thanks to https://blog.feedspot.com/trivia_podcasts/ AI Voices used

As we continue getting into some new 2024 horror releases, we take a drastic swing from the indie horror of Stop Motion in our previous episode, to the big studio fuckery of IMAGINARY. It's Blumhouse, it's PG-13, and it's directed by the same individual who directed modern classics (SIKE) like Blumhouse's Truth or Dare and Blumhouse's Fantasty Island. GODDAMN. Needless to say, we had fun talking about this one. "Every culture has a name for it, entities that tether to the young. The Spanish call it "El Cuco". The Trinidadians, the "Jumbie". We call them imaginary friends." It's the Who Goes There Podcast Episode 410! Join our Patreon if you enjoy the show! As a patreon member you get the episodes early, bonus content, access to our Discord, and exclusive merchandise. Most importantly, you get to help us continue doing the show. Thanks for listening and a huge thanks as always to @calgee for his amazing original art. Go give him a follow on Instagram. The Who Goes There Podcast is available to subscribe to on iTunes and Spotify. You can also find us on Instagram. 

Dr. Kendall K Williams, son of Trinidadians, began playing pan at the age of 4 and later performed with large, world-renowned steel bands in Trinidad and Tobago as well as bands in the New York-based scene for years, then after studies in architecture, he graduated from Florida Memorial University with a BA in Music under the direction of Dr. Dawn Batson, with his main instrument being the steel pan. He continued to further his studies at NYU Steinhardt, where he pursued a Master of Music Degree in Music Theory & Composition, studying with Julia Wolfe, Michael Gordon, and Rich Shemaria. There he also actively participated in the NYU Steel band under the leadership of Artist Faculty member Josh Quillen. Kendall was awarded the opportunity to work with the Brooklyn Philharmonic on a project that involved steel pan and contemporary music compositions. From 2013 t0 2014 he was the Van Lier Fellow with the American Composers Orchestra and graduated with his PHD in music composition at Princeton University! One of his goals is establishing steel pan music programs in colleges and universities that will allow musicians to major in steel pan and heads the WIADCA educational/development programs for schools, especially as he teaches in elementary schools to universities. Dr. Williams sits as CEO of Pan in Motion, an organization that he started in 2014, to promote history, education, and sustainability in steel pan. He has played in the Macy's Parade and has won the People's Choice award and placed 4th at the Panorama steelpan competition this past September in his second year of competition. In honor of the steelpan, which is the only new instrument invented in the 20th century in its birthplace of the twin islands of Trinidad and Tobago, Kendall's dream is to own a building dedicated to the steelpan, its culture and history, with a steelpan museum, concert halls, performance spaces for mas and other aspects of carnival, rehearsal space, soundproof rooms for recordings, reading and teaching rooms, board rooms, artwork, storage for steel pans. He dreams of offering his employees: 401K retirement benefits, just like any other Fortune 500 company. He is passionate about raising the view of the steelpan to the level of rock, funk, soca, classical music in the eyes and ears of the world. Follow him at: https://www.paninmotion.com   --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ozzie-stewart/support

Paving a Path to Success in Frontline Contact Center Leadership    This week, we welcome Chevon Brathwaite to the Digitally Irresistible podcast. Chevon is senior manager of operations at iQor Trinidad and Tobago with over 15 years' experience in contact center operations and a passion for customer service and professional development for frontline employees.    Chevon began his career working in contact center operations, gaining additional responsibilities and shouldering new roles as he displayed an aptitude for developing himself and others to excel in the customer service business. His boots-on-the-ground experience as an agent and supervisor helped advance his career in the BPO industry with iQor Trinidad and Tobago, where he supports iQor's clients through a diverse talent pool supported by a comprehensive infrastructure that delivers robust data security and performance for smile-worthy CX.  On this episode, we discuss how Chevon paved the way for new client relationships with iQor in Trinidad and Tobago by maximizing the performance of his teams to exceed client KPIs while also investing in their personal and professional development.   Earning Client Confidence Through Open Communication and Quality Customer Service   Chevon began his career as a call center agent at the frontlines of customer care. As he gained experience, his authentic passion for providing exceptional customer service propelled his advancement to supervisory roles. Chevon's experience as a call center supervisor provided him with a new perspective on customer service. Investing directly in his team's well-being and professional development to aid their achievement of department objectives resulted in a significant and lasting impact on customer service culture within the company.    Upon initially expanding nearshoring services to Trinidad and Tobago, iQor gave Chevon the opportunity to join us as a critical operations resource. His years of hands-on experience fielding customer inquiries and managing teams in the region made him an ideal candidate. Chevon joined iQor, transitioning from a single-brand contact center environment to a BPO environment servicing multiple clients. Chevon embraced the opportunity with great enthusiasm, leveraging his extensive contact center management experience. He set out to listen to the needs of all his clients and harnessed iQor's resources to achieve the best outcomes for all the clients that his team supports.    To accomplish this, Chevon emphasized close, open communication with the client to achieve their KPIs, while maintaining his commitment to quality and security. The unique characteristics of the talent pool in Trinidad and Tobago combined with iQor's high standards in client data privacy and protection empowered Chevon to support new clients and drive operations excellence at iQor.  Why Trinidad and Tobago Is an Attractive Location for Nearshore Customer Service    Trinidad and Tobago features a combination of strategic advantages that position it as an attractive location in the global outsourcing landscape. Chevon describes how the country's unique qualities combine with iQor's CX operations expertise to create optimal outcomes for the clients he and his team support.   Geographically positioned below the hurricane belt, the islands' location ensures a level of operational stability and minimizes the risks associated with weather-related events, making the two-island nation a reliable hub for businesses seeking reliable customer service operations.   Trinidad and Tobago also boasts a population of young, college-educated, digitally savvy talent ready to delve into the world of customer service. This pool of skilled professionals offers a unique blend of technical aptitude and innovative thinking, paving the way for adaptable and creative solutions to customer interactions.    The country's population includes a large number of bilingual speakers, providing a competitive edge by enabling seamless communication with a diverse range of customers. While Trinidad and Tobago has its own distinct culture, it also shares many similarities with American culture, allowing for a seamless adaptation to the needs and expectations of American customers. This cultural compatibility fosters a sense of familiarity and understanding between agent and customer that drives higher customer satisfaction.    Trinidad and Tobago is a nearshore customer service destination that blends geographic resilience, skilled talent, linguistic versatility, and American cultural synchronization to deliver top-tier customer experiences. Chevon's leadership focuses on integrating these benefits into optimized teams and operations strategies that yield powerful returns on investment (ROI) for iQor's strategic partners, many of whom begin with one line of business and expand to multiple LOBs due to their success.    The Positive Feedback Loop of Employee Experiences That Inspire Engagement and Deliver Exceptional CX   In his role as senior manager of operations at iQor Trinidad and Tobago, Chevon is most passionate about working with people to cultivate and strengthen bonds between team members and customers. Investing in the success of his employees through mentorship and other support practices gives his work a sense of purpose and drives his commitment to managing with excellence. iQor's succession planning and career pathing programs ensure that when Chevon invests in the success of his teams, he is helping each agent cultivate opportunities for their own professional advancement and support within the company.     In one case, an agent on Chevon's team was experiencing a personal challenge. Chevon took the time to understand what iQor could do to provide support while the agent navigated their circumstances. This agent received support and has since advanced to a management position, exemplifying iQor's investment in tenured employees who create value for our clients.   Chevon's contribution to this process is critical to creating positive employee experiences driven by evidence-backed retention strategies that boost engagement and build employees into leaders.     3 Irresistible Benefits Driving Client Expansion Into Nearshoring With iQor Trinidad and Tobago    Chevon has been integral in maximizing Trinidad and Tobago as an attractive nearshoring geolocation to build and expand client relationships. One of iQor's clients had not previously outsourced to a nearshore location and expressed an interest in learning more. Chevon met with the client, highlighting his team's capabilities and the location's benefits. Chevon emphasized three areas that ultimately inspired the client to expand their strategic outsourcing partnership with iQor to include nearshoring services in Trinidad and Tobago.  1. Rapid, efficient onboarding.   The client was impressed by the iQor Trinidad and Tobago's swift onboarding process, which seamlessly recruited and trained new talent, demonstrating remarkable efficiency and a commitment to delivering results from day one.    2. Data security and protection.   A top priority for the client was iQor's unwavering commitment to stringent data protection protocols and maintaining top-tier security compliance, instilling confidence in the safety of sensitive information and fostering a trustworthy partnership.  iQor provides this peace of mind for all clients in all geos with best-in-class CX cloud infrastructure and multi-layer security protocols. We continuously invest in a dynamic zero trust approach to cybersecurity that leverages the most up-to-date trends in security awareness with multi-factor authentication, network security, data security, device authentication, and continuous monitoring of client and customer information.   3. Bilingual talent.    The availability of a bilingual talent pool in this geolocation helped solidify the client's decision to nearshore their operations with iQor Trinidad and Tobago. Linguistic familiarity helps provide seamless customer service across a diverse array of inquiries, simplifying interactions and maintaining customer satisfaction.   Investing in Leadership Is Key to Success in Every Geolocation   At iQor, we recognize that the cornerstone of success lies in a strategic investment in leadership. Chevon's consistent excellence in contact center roles showcased his capability of providing the guidance, motivation, and direction to navigate diverse customer needs as a senior operations manager while keeping up with the ever-evolving BPO industry.  Since taking on the responsibility of senior operations manager at iQor Trinidad and Tobago, Chevon's coaching and support practices have consistently inspired optimal performance from the diverse talent pool he manages. His proven ability to oversee the onboarding process, along with the availability of a bilingual workforce and iQor's commitment to data security, have inspired client confidence in nearshoring with iQor Trinidad and Tobago, driving successful client outcomes with exceptional customer service.    What Chevon Does for Fun    Like many Trinidadians, Chevon enjoys soaking up the sun and surf on the beautiful local beaches. He also enjoys binge-watching movies and spending time with his family.    To learn more about Chevon, visit him on LinkedIn.  Watch the video here. Read the blog post here.   

The twin island state of Trinidad and Tobago lies between the South American coast of Venezuela and the West Indies. Home to roughly 1.5 million inhabitants of African and Indian descent, the tiny Caribbean nation has one of the world's highest volunteer rates for the Islamic State (IS) group. Between 2013 and 2016, more than 130 Trinidadians left to join the IS group, making the island country one of the world's biggest recruiting grounds, per capita, for would-be jihadists. Since the fall of the self-declared caliphate in 2017, 90 Trinidad and Tobago nationals, including 56 children, have been detained in camps in Syria and are unable to return home. FRANCE 24's Cyrille Charpentier and Damien Lansade report. 

“It is as foreign to some people here, as it would be to someone not living here. There's a kind of feral nature to it that I wanted to capture." Many of us hold a picture postcard view of the Caribbean - steel drums, calypso music and coconut trees - but places like Trinidad have a shockingly dark past.  Kevin Jared Hosein is the author of ‘Hungry Ghosts', a book which explores the impact of colonialism on Trinidad, taking us back in time to a snapshot in the country's history when Trinidadians experienced subhuman living conditions, consigned to gruesome, barrack-type quarters. In this episode we learn about the violence that ensues as hardship forces a community to turn on itself, and explore the mythological concept of ‘hungry ghosts'. In this episode, you will learn: How to use violence not for the sake of violence, but as a way of communicating a more fundamental message. How landscape can be used to convey emotion. Why it's important to understand the whole history of a country, even the unsavoury parts. Find out more about Kevin here. Your host is inkjockey founder Mark Heywood. Behind The Spine is an inkjockey production, and the audio accompaniment to The Writing Salon. Sign up to the newsletter here. You can buy copies of our anthology series here.  You can view the full transcript here. Connect with the show: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/behindthespinepodcast/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/BehindTheSpine Twitter: https://twitter.com/BehindTheSpine Website: www.behindthespine.co.uk

Cuz we are Trinidadians and we're Tobagonians! Happy 60th Independence Day Sweet T&T

On July 7th we're going LIVE with y'all listeners, get the Zoom link! Abbas is joined by Comedian/Actor, Brandon Ash-Mohammed, and they chat about his unique name, doing 23andMe as black dudes, going to ADHD camp, being head writer on Canada's Drag Race, why no one knows the Canadian Screen Awards, going to a wild Muslim funeral, his superstitious Trinidadian family, and how immigrants love Dettol antiseptic.  connect with  Abbas / Brandon The Immigrant Section is a weekly show where guests join Abbas Wahab, Sudanese-Canadian Standup Comedian, to talk about funny cultural similarities/differences, current events, and sometimes more. It's raw and unfiltered, for your listening pleasure. Enjoy!

What could persuade someone to leave a comparatively wealthy country in the Western Hemisphere to fight and die in the hellhole of the Islamic State? That's exactly what happened in the unlikely setting of Trinidad and Tobago. Arthur Snell pieces together an astonishing story of how radicalisation is continuing in unexpected places around the world – how jihad leaders learned from the experts in global expansion, the fast food giants – and how jihad has found its mirror in QAnon. How do we fight terror when global jihad has gone local? “Trinidadians who had never driven a tanker before were suddenly sending me pictures where they were holding up machine guns.” – Asha Javeed “These threats have grown out of the very measures that were supposed to contain them.” – Arthur Snell “The US invasion of Iraq was the most severe strategic misjudgment since Hitler decided to invade Russia.” – David Kilcullen “Jihad has become a global product that adapts to its surroundings. Think of it as fast food.” – Arthur Snell “When I was in Iraq during the insurgency, al-Zarqawi was the one you feared, not Bin Laden.” – Arthur Snell DOOMSDAY WATCH was written and presented by Arthur Snell, and produced by Robin Leeburn – with assistant production from Jacob Archbold. Theme tune and original music by Paul Hartnoll. The group editor is Andrew Harrison. DOOMSDAY WATCH is a Podmasters production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

William Huggins, DBA, is Vice President Operations and Country Lead at iQor Trinidad. In this episode, we discuss his purpose-driven approach to leading the iQor team in Trinidad. William recently completed his Doctorate in Business Administration (DBA) with a concentration in customer experience. He explains how he is applying his previous work experience, his education and his purpose-driven approach to leading the iQor team in Trinidad.  His Previous Experience Set the Stage for His Current Role  William's past roles have led him to iQor in this leadership role. He has worked in several industries in different roles including marketing, sales, business development and customer experience. Of all those roles, he attributes the most impactful in his career to roles in the contact center industry. When the VP Operations, Country Lead position in Trinidad became available at iQor, he jumped at the chance to apply his professional experience, his education, and his passion for the local economy. iQor is a dynamic and innovative customer centric organization that is passionate about its employees, its customers and the local communities in which it operates, all of which excited William.   How His Doctoral Dissertation Aligns  William explains that his doctoral dissertation addresses a gap in customer experience theory which he describes as a lack of constructs of the customer experience and its impact at each stage of the consumer buying process. His dissertation is a unique study that unearthed a new theory and valuable knowledge for customer experience practitioners. He examined over 50 years of scholastic work conducted on customer experience and concluded that any given customer experience is created by the combination of four attributes, or dimensions, explained in the acronym FACT. This is how they breakdown: Functionality refers to the physical aspect of a company's core product and service offering. Aesthetics involves the appearance of a building or staff (the look and feel). Communication with customers is considered fundamental to a CX strategy. Talent involves the people and culture of an organization. How His Doctoral Dissertation Correlates to His Leadership Role at iQor Trinidad  William points out that customer experience IS iQor's business. We interact with customers for the brands who entrust us to answer their questions and solve their problems. Hence, having a deeper understanding of what creates an excellent customer experience enables William to lead our team in Trinidad to focus on those key dimensions and sub-dimensions in the delivery of an exceptional experience to our client's customers.  What It Means to be Purpose-Driven in His Leadership Role  For many years, the Trinidad and Tobago (TT) economy was largely driven by oil and gas. While there have been many discussions about diversification of the TT economy it has been slow in coming. Because of William's involvement in the BPO industry for several years, he has long had the desire to influence the development of the BPO industry as an alternative revenue source for the TT economy. iQor provides William the opportunity to impact diversification in TT and to create desirable jobs for his fellow Trinidadians. As a result,William's passion is to position iQor TT as the BEST place to work and the most desirable contact center location for our clients.   iQor Trinidad employees are all local Trinidadians. William points out that he grew up in TT. He knows firsthand how passionate, and performance-driven his fellow Trinidadians are. As an example, he boasts that a client in the home services industry has ranked iQor Trinidad as their #1 BPO in performance among ALL their contact centers globally! And he mentions with pride that this same team is currently leading the pack in 2021 with the same client. Why iQor is a Great Place to Work for Local Trinidadians  William points out the obvious to me, that iQor has an irresistible culture. When you couple our irresistible culture with an abundance of opportunity for local talent, iQor is an excellent place for young people to start their career straight out of a university. Additionally, there are many job opportunities for people further along in their career as well ranging from frontline agents to roles in HR, IT, Facilities, Operations, Finance, etc.  iQor is fortunate to be expanding even in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. We are currently preparing to open our third contact center in Chaguanas, Trinidad. Our TT employee count is currently approximately 1,350 and growing rapidly with expansion from existing programs and new clients coming on board. William says that it is an exciting time to be at iQor TT.  A Situational Leadership Style   I asked William how he is converging his work experience, education, and purpose to lead more than 1,300 people at iQor Trinidad. He explains that leadership is situational. He adopts an appropriate style to suit each situation.  However, he points out that his inherent leadership style is participative and collaborative. This style is critical to support and drive his purpose of making iQor TT:  1)    The best destination for our clients. 2)    The best place to work for our employees. 3)    The best investment for owners.  4)    A valuable partner to the local government to assist with diversification efforts. His Leadership Action Plan  William explains his leadership action plan this way: 1)    It starts with our people. We have a unique culture that is difficult to replicate. William views his job as harnessing this culture and bringing out the best in our people to develop them and maximize their career path potential. 2)    Each employee has something to contribute. He encourages a free flow of ideas.  3)    Fostering a culture of performance that surpasses client's expectations and enables continued growth. 4)    Collaboration with key stakeholders such as InvesTT, Minister of Trade, local universities, Chamber of Commerce all to help iQor TT diversify the economy and enhance communities through its Corporate Social Responsibilities initiatives.  What William Does for Fun When He's Not Working   William enjoys his work so much that he considers it fun. He also loves traveling with his family to other countries and exploring diverse cultures and foods during non-pandemic times. Additionally, he enjoys watching sports on television, particularly football, basketball and cricket.  Learn more about iQor digital customer experience capabilities.  Read the blog post here. Watch the video here.

This is the 7th episode of Since Then "catch up" series with Vashti de Verteuil and Andre Largen. 2 Trinidadians, 2 educators, one of clothing, the other of dance, one a Professor at Parsons New School of Design and labor activist, the other at the University of the West Indies. Both working through the many challenges of teaching via zoom since 2020 in 2 different countries, still passionate about their careers. Love the accents in full display!!! It was great to have a conversation about covid-19 and its effects on Trinidad and its citizens. Some appalling yet humorous behaviour is revealed which shows that people are the same worldwide, especially where this pandemic is concerned. Check them out on YouTube. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/ozzie-stewart/support

Alot went on this week from Nicki Minaj and Michael B Jordan face criticism from Trinidadians for using J'ouvert as the name of his rum.Trick Daddy disrespects Beyonce's vocals and downplays Jay-Z as a rapper. Chris Brown Under Investigation After Smacking A Woman's Weave Off and more. So join in with us. Drop a comment ((YOUTUBE)) like and subscribed you can also check us on IG,FAcebook and youtube and all listening platform. Copyright Disclaimer Under Section 107 of the Copyright Act 1976, allowance is made for "fair use" for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research. Fair use is a use permitted by copyright statute that might otherwise be infringing. educational or personal use tips the balance in favor of fair use. --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/live-at-the-barbershop/message

As part of Wellness Wednesdays, I interviewed Nathalia Rupert Registered Dietitian. Our focus was managing weight during a lockdown and eating clean to beat lifestyle diseases. Nathalia shares how as Caribbean people especially Trinidadians and Tobagonians we can change how we prepare our foods and what we eat and drink to lead a healthy lifestyle. The importance of adopting healthy eating habits for happy healthier lives is emphasized.You can follow Nathalia on Instagram @trinidietitian.Thank you for listening and please share, like, and comment.

This week Mary Amelia Beyer (Everything Trying To Kill You) talks to Adam about a Trinidadians legend and the worst movie ever made before we are joined by an HR person turned cruise ship captain keeping people away from land and their tethers in this US themed episode. -- SHOW INFORMATION Twitter: @MyDeadNeighbors Instagram: @MyNeighborsAreDead Email: MyNeighborsAreDead@gmail.com Merchandise: TeePublic Subscribe: Apple Podcasts Subscribe: Spotify

On this segment, I have my first guest with me, she's a DJ by profession from Trinidad and Tobago also known as Dj Charlotte. On this pod, we dive into the radio landscape of Trinidad and Tobago and what Trinidadians listen to music wise. We also touch a little bit on Spotify being released in over 15 Caribbean countries and what will the effects or impacts be for local artists within the Caribbean. And lastly, we talk about K-pop on the radio, its misconceptions and understandings within the Trinidadian space as well as what it means to be a BTS Caribbean Army in any BTS Army space. Dj Charlotte's soundcloud --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/sincerelythelilacwriter/message

We are all in for a treat today, as we hear from Moy Lovell about Doubles, the street food she says “profoundly connects” everyone in her country, the republic of Trinidad and Tobago, regardless of race, ethnicity, or socio-economic status. Doubles sounds simple enough - just fried bread called “bara” topped with a flavourful Channa (or chickpea) Gravy - but it's so good that, after making it before this interview, I knew I had to make a QUADRUPLE batch to satisfy my family when the day came to photograph the Doubles. As you may have guessed, the dish has its roots in India, which was the perfect starting point for Moy to teach me about the unique history and diversity of Trinidad and Tobago. Also, the version Moy gave me is gluten-free, as Moy cannot eat any gluten at all, and has used her considerable baking skills to develop recipes for many classic dishes. We discuss her diagnosis at length, but because this episode was already so rich and packed with information, I'm also releasing a bonus episode this Friday with Moy's best tips for baking gluten-free foods. Listen to Moy Now Highlights Moy's jobs as an interior designer, artist, and baker A History Lesson: Afro-Trinidadians & Indo-Trinidadians Celiac disease and failure to diagnose Opening a gluten-free shop and the people Moy serves Memories of Moy's dad baking bread: “a taste of heaven” Family food traditions and a family catering business The savviness & worldliness of Trinidadian tastes The Indo-Trinidadian dish that "profoundly connects" all Trinidadians Recipes Related to this Episode Trinidadian Doubles Gluten-Free More Episodes Moy's Tips on Going Gluten-Free - Coming Friday Bonus Episode: Moy's Tips for Going Gluten Free How to Contact Moy Lovell of Moy's Gluten-Free Kitchen Website: www.MoysGlutenFreeKitchen.com Moy's Gluten-Free Kitchen on Facebook Moy's Gluten-Free Kitchen on Instagram    

Teniel Campbell hails from Trinidad, not exactly a hotbed of world class cycling stars. But this determined talent is on the edge of breaking big and inspiring the next generation of Trinidadians to follow her path.“I'm gonna come back to Europe and whoop ass. Just stamp my name. I'm not here to try to survive in the peloton. I'm gonna be great.”This Soca Warrior knows where she's headed.The Rouleur Longreads Podcast brings you selected long form articles from the magazine, especially recorded for Rouleur. Don't stop what you're doing – do it while listening to the world's best cycling writing.The latest in this series is ‘Teniel Campbell: Trailblazer' by Andy McGrath, from Rouleur 20.4. Read by George Oliver. Subscribe to Rouleur before June 8th to ensure you receive it. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

 The death of George Floyd, a black man who died on Memorial Day after he was pinned down by a white police officer, has sparked protests across the United States and even abroad.In France, the event has even revived anger over the death of Adama Traore a black Frenchman who died in police custody 4 years ago. Some 20,000 people demonstrated in Paris on Tuesday.I met my guest at the Kneel for justice protest yesterday in Princeton. She was one of the speakers. She is a Prospective Molecular Biology Major at Princeton University. Welcome to Back in America Imani MulrainShe recommends watching the following video how to financially help BLM with NO MONEY/leaving your house (Invest in the future for FREE) to help the Black Lives Matter movement  Transcript19 Year-Old Princeton Student: Being Black in the US is Like SuffocatingImani-Mulrain[00:00:00] Imani: [00:00:00] I'm just on a group chat with other students of color on Princeton's campus. And it's just, we usually use this group to have to talk about like the like issues or just to like be friends and be silly. But last night there was just a lot of questions, a lot of distress. And I was just one of the people trying to help my friends out mentally.[00:00:20] Cause it was a very distressing time. And I know for a lot of people of color, it can just feel like the whole weight of the situation is on your shoulders. You feel like. There's no way out. It's not going to change. A lot of my friends are just going through a lot right now.[00:00:44] If you're tired of arguing with strangers on the internet. Try talking with one of them in real life.[00:01:04] [00:01:00] Welcome to Back in America, the podcast.[00:01:15] Stan: [00:01:15] The death of George Floyd, a black man who died on Memorial day after he was pinned down by a white officer, has sparked protest across the United States and abroad.[00:01:28] In France, the event has even revived anger over the death of Amanda Traore, a black Frenchman who died in police custody four years ago. Some 20,000 people demonstrated in Paris on Tuesday.[00:01:44] I met my guest at the Kneel for Justice protest yesterday in Princeton. She was one of the speakers. She's a prospective molecular biology major at Princeton University. Welcome to back in America.[00:01:58] Imani: [00:01:58] So my name is [00:02:00] Imani Mulrain. That's my full name. Um, I'm the first person in my family to be born in the United States.[00:02:07] My family, um, immigrated here from Trinidad and Tobago. Which is the last Caribbean Island in the chain of Caribbean islands. Um, I'm originally from Boston and I'm a first-year at Princeton University.[00:02:23] Stan: [00:02:23] How old are you?[00:02:25] Imani: [00:02:25] I'm 19.[00:02:26] Stan: [00:02:26] How did you get involved with the protest?[00:02:29] Imani: [00:02:29] Um, so I moved to New Jersey, literally this Saturday and Valeria, who is, um, she's a daughter of, one of the women who was in charge of setting up. The protests. She just asked me if I wanted to be a speaker. And I said, yes. So it really was, it was just really, it wasn't that complicated. She just asked me and I said, I wanted to.[00:02:51] Stan: [00:02:51] And why did you want to be a speaker?[00:02:54] Imani: [00:02:54] Um, because I just feel like most of the time, like I watch a lot of YouTube videos about the protests [00:03:00] and stuff.[00:03:00] I feel like the media is intentional about who they choose to speak on these issues. And oftentimes I feel like they choose people who are quote-unquote: 'stereotypes'. So it's easy for people who are against the protests to make fun of these people or whatever, or they don't really listen to what the people have to say, but they look at what they're wearing, what their vernaculars are.[00:03:23] And they just really it's like the media intentionally choose these people so that the opposite side has something to make fun of and poke fun at as a reason so that they don't listen. And I know, I myself am privileged to go to an Ivy League school. So I feel like in that way, I don't necessarily fit the stereotype of what a black person is in America.[00:03:44] But I noticed a lot of other stereotypes that I, I fit like my hair is, um, I have locks, which is another stereotype. Mmm. But I just, I feel like out of, I can [00:04:00] like my voice, it can be helpful to put the, put, like move the protest forward and move the movement forward. Because I feel like, um, I don't have a stereotypical vernacular.[00:04:13] Um, I've been told by my black friends that I speak 'white' or whatever, or that I sound educated. Um, I don't necessarily agree with that. I don't think you can tell how someone, how educated somebody sounds by their vernacular or whatever accent that they have, but in cases like this, where you have. People against the movement, poking fun at people who have really important things to say, just because of their vernacular.[00:04:37] I feel like the people who fit the criteria who speak normal, their voices can really have an impact in this.[00:04:44] Stan: [00:04:44] You talk about Princeton. Um, tell me, how did you end up at Princeton?[00:04:50] Imani: [00:04:50] Um, so in Boston, I went to Boston Latin high school, um, which is, um, very, it's a very well known school. It was the first [00:05:00] school built in America.[00:05:01] And it, um, it's the reason why Harvard was built in the first place. So Boston Latin school, most of our students go to Harvard, but, um, a majority of our students go to Ivy League schools and really good schools. So of all the schools, I applied to Princeton was the second Ivy league. I also applied to Harvard, but I got waitlisted.[00:05:24] And since Princeton was the only other Ivy league I applied to and I got in, I just came to Princeton.Imani: my family gets financial aid and I really think it's only because my mom is back in school.[00:05:45] She's a nurse, but, um, she came from Canada, um, Quebec. So she got her associate's degree a very long time ago. She never got her bachelor's degree and she works at the Brigham and women's hospital. And so now she's decided to get her [00:06:00] bachelor's degree. So she'd go in to get her master's. So I think it's only because she's in school again and because I have a little brother and they also have to pay for his private school, that the school is giving us financial aid.[00:06:09] So my mom said that she'd be willing to pay 10,000 and the school's making her pay 11,000. So it's like within our, our range.[00:06:16] Stan: [00:06:16] So you told us that your mom is a nurse. What is your dad doing?[00:06:22] Imani: [00:06:22] My birth father and my mother are not together, but my birth father is a security guard and my stepfather is a custodian.[00:06:32] Stan: [00:06:32] Yeah. What's your experience being a black person in this country?[00:06:38] Imani: [00:06:38] I feel like I have a very unique experience because it's a big issue in the Caribbean community. The issue of colorism or an issue of accepting your American identity. Um, so like I said, since I'm the only person in my family born in the United States, I've always felt like I didn't really fit with my family or fit with America because Trinidadians [00:07:00] have an accent and I did grow up with an accent, but whenever we'd go outside, like to McDonald's, for example, the workers would always ask me to translate what my grandmother is saying.[00:07:09] A Trinidadian accent sounds like an Indian accent. You're speaking English. I'd always feel really embarrassed. So I taught myself to speak like an American.[00:07:18] And my family would always make jokes that Trump is my president  but not their president.[00:07:39] I've had issues in my school in particular, which has been in the news and media for racial discrimination, where students have, um, told me that I need to stop pretending like I'm special or that I have a special culture. I'm black all I was going to be is black. And I felt like that really just, they really tried to strip me of my national [00:08:00] identity.[00:08:00] Mmm. Because it's like, when people come to this country, you don't tell them to forget everything that they are, they don't have to be American, like, so it's just. Really hurtful in that way. Um, I've been followed in like corner stores and grocery stores. Um, people assuming that I stole something. Mmm. And I guess the biggest thing for me that was really hurtful Mmm.[00:08:26] Were comments about my hair again, which is a big problem in the black community. People trying to, uh, control black women's hair in particular and people would always tell me. Mmm. Like, Oh, is that a weave back when I used to wear my hair long and I used to like, press it out and iron it out. And it's just, it's really like self debilitating and it's really hurtful.[00:08:48] Cause it makes you feel like you're not a person, it shifts your identity. It makes me feel like I'm not special.[00:08:54] And I guess the only other comment that really bothered me was a boy, a white boy, my [00:09:00] class, a comment that my grandmother is a terrorist and she wants to blow up the United States because my family was originally Muslim.[00:09:07] Mmm. And when they came to the United States, everybody converted to Christianity except for my grandmother. So she's still a practicing Muslim. So that comment also is like, he claimed that he was joking, but it's like, why would that even be funny? That's not funny to me.[00:09:23] Stan: [00:09:23] Can you recall a time when you were young, a time when you felt that you belong to this country?[00:09:31] Like any other person belongs. A time before, you know, you felt looked at because you were black.[00:09:43] Imani: [00:09:43] I'd have to say, like, it's kind of hard to say that because even from a young age, you know, people treat you differently and you have to ask why and your parents tell you. So I think my first two experiences that was that I was around five. I remember, [00:10:00] um, going on the train with my family in New York.[00:10:03] And these two Asian ladies are on the seat across from us, kept pointing at us and taking pictures and like whispering. And I was just confused. I asked my mom, what are they doing? She said, 'just ignore them'.[00:10:13] Um, so it was the first time I felt like, Hmm, maybe there's something weird about me and I guess, Mmm.[00:10:21] The second instance, I was about seven, my family and I went to Applebee's in Boston. Mmm. And we were the only black people in the restaurant. They sat us down at the table and we sat there for an hour and no waiter ever came to us. Like we didn't even get to put in like the initial order of like bread or like water.[00:10:42] Like nobody came to us and we looked around, we saw the waiters were going to everybody else and we'll be the only black family in the restaurant we just left. So of course, since then I've had many experiences with racial discrimination, but I'd say those are really my first experiences of just feeling like, okay, I guess I'm not an [00:11:00] American.[00:11:01] I do like, and the reason why my family came in, in the first place, the opportunities being in America can offer you like educational wise, financial wise, housing wise. It's kind of ironic that the one country that offers the most opportunity is also the one country that oppresses people the most.[00:11:20] Stan: [00:11:20] How did you feel when you first saw the video of George Floyd being murdered?[00:11:28] Imani: [00:11:28] This is going to sound kind of bad, but I honestly wasn't surprised by it. And I just feel like it's because I've been desensitized to things like this, I've already. Seen many videos before of police brutality. So I did watch the video the full way through I was sick and by it, that doesn't change. But I guess the shock value wasn't there anymore because I've already seen so many other videos of black men or black people in general be killed by the police.[00:11:54] Like I remember the first video, I guess that really took my shock. I forget the man's name, [00:12:00] but he was in a car. With his girlfriend at the time. And he was trying to get out his identification for the police and they just shot him right in the car. They shot him like a good amount of times and he died in the car.[00:12:11] Um, and it all he was getting out was his like ID to show the police. And after that, I just feel like every video. So after that, just did it live up to that child value. So I get sickened by them all the time. They just don't surprise me anymore.[00:12:25] Stan: [00:12:25] What would it take to change this country?[00:12:30] Imani: [00:12:30] Honestly, it's going to take a lot of effort because I think, I don't think, I know, that this country was built on slavery and a lot of our foundational systems are intentionally discriminating.[00:12:42] Um, like one of the speakers said of the protest: is country. The society is a game and a again, you need winners and losers. And the way that our system is set up, the winners are the white majority and the losers are the minorities. So I honestly feel like the only way to fix the system is to completely create a new one.[00:12:59] You [00:13:00] can't just, it's like you have like an old car. You can't just keep fixing this and fixing that because eventually something is going to break. You just need to buy a new car after awhile. So I feel like that's what we are. Like our system is racist. Our system is discriminatory and we need a new system, but that's going to take a lot of effort.[00:13:19] And I don't know if America is ready for that, or at least our president.[00:13:23] Stan: [00:13:23] Hmm, Yesterday, during the protest. You ask us to, um, stay silent for four minutes and reflect upon whether we would rather, uh, suffocate for four minutes or live the life of a black American.[00:13:41] Imani: [00:13:41] Yeah.[00:13:43] Stan: [00:13:43] What were you thinking about during those four minutes?[00:13:47] Imani: [00:13:47] Honestly, that there's no difference between the two. They're really just the same thing. Because like what George Floyd went through, not being able to breathe. You're suffocated. You don't know what to [00:14:00] do. You just feel like you're trapped. Like there's no end to it. That's what I feel like being a black person every single day.[00:14:07] I wonder if I go into a store, like, I don't know if people realize this, but a lot of black people, especially if you're in an influential like neighborhood, you cannot just window shop. Because you're scared that if you walk into a store and you just look around, you don't buy anything. As soon as you walk out that door, that somebody is going to assume that you stole.[00:14:23] I get that fear every single day, that if I just walk into a store and decide, I don't want to buy something, I'm going to get the cops called on me. Cause somebody assumes that I stole every single time walking around Boston. If I noticed that I'm a white neighborhood, I'm so scared that somebody is going to see me and call the cops on me just because they think that I don't belong there.[00:14:40] Um, so I get actually really scared when I'm walking in a white neighborhood at night. Um, I have the urge in me to just run to the neighborhood, run down the block, and then I'm afraid that no matter what I do with where I walk or I run, they're going to assume that I stole something. It's like a daily fear, but one day somebody who's going to take my life just because of the [00:15:00] color of my skin.[00:15:00] And they assume that I'm a criminal.[00:15:05] Stan: [00:15:05] How did you feel yesterday when you saw those white students, white people were there on the streets of Princeton?[00:15:17] Imani: [00:15:17] Um, well, because I'm not originally from the Princeton area, um, I'm not really sure what the demographic or background makeup is of this neighborhood, but it was really, it was happy to see that people are coming out. Um, more than just black people, because if we want to change this nation, they can't just be one race.[00:15:37] It has to be everyone. So it's really a good feeling inside of me to see the diversity in the crowd and see that there's more than just one race, that a lot of people are starting to change your minds about how they feel about racial discrimination in America, and that they want to see change.[00:15:51] Stan: [00:15:51] Is there anything else you want to add?[00:15:54] Imani: [00:15:54] I just really want to reiterate Mmm. What one of the speakers said, [00:16:00] is that it doesn't. Like even go like more and more black people are having to give their children to talk about how to deal with law enforcement. That it can't just be a one-sided thing. Like everybody needs to give the children a talk to not be racist, especially white people.[00:16:17] That if we're just going to tell black people how to act around the cops, we also have to tell these people who are being cops going up to be cops to not be racist and to not discriminate based on racial bias. It's like, it's just another thing that we can, we can't just depend on one group to this. It has to be a national effort if we want to see real change happen.[00:16:36] Stan: [00:16:36] Okay. What are going to be the next steps for you in this fight for justice?[00:16:44] Imani: [00:16:44] Um, currently some of the Princeton students who are still on campus, they want to organize another protest. So I'm trying to see if I can help out with that. Um, but me personally, I'm actually immunocompromised, um, I'm a type one diabetic, so it was actually really nerve [00:17:00] wracking going out to that protest.[00:17:01] I'm not really sure if I want to do that again. Cause it was just really scary, but I'm personally, I'm trying to donate, um, money to different causes. And this is a video on YouTube that I'm streaming, um, that the ad revenues are going to support, um, different black lives matter movement. So I'm watching that.[00:17:19] I'm streaming it in the background[00:17:20] Stan: [00:17:20] And where should people go to find it?[00:17:24] Imani: [00:17:24] So it's called it's by Zoe. Her name is Zoe Z O E Ameera A M I R A. And it's called how to financially help  B L M with no money / leaving your house. Um, so there's a lot of videos like that. I don't trust the other videos because then again, they're not as well known.[00:17:43] You don't know if they're just taking that ad revenue money for themselves. But this, I know that this video is actually helping. So you can, it has 5.7 million views. You just stream the video in the background. Don't pause, don't skip any of the ads. Um, and all the [00:18:00] ad revenues will go towards black lives matter movement.[00:18:03] Stan: [00:18:03] What is America to you?[00:18:06] Imani: [00:18:06] America? To me as a country with a lot of opportunities. Um, a lot of opportunities. A lot of places for people to be successful about the same time. It's also a place we've. We have a lot where we have a lot of obstacles holding people back from reaching those opportunities and from being successful.[00:18:28] So it's a very ironic country, a very Hippocratic country that says that it's the land of the free, but yet not everybody is free here.[00:18:37] Stan: [00:18:37] Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for your time. And, uh, well, good luck for the rest of the protests.[00:18:50] Thank you [00:19:00] have a good day. 

If you were wondering what's up with the accent? Me & Brandon are both Trinidadians. Everytime we hang out we always have some amazing conversations so we decided to have an episode. You're going to enjoy this --- This episode is sponsored by · Anchor: The easiest way to make a podcast. https://anchor.fm/app Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/animatedcam/support

This week on #beatsheetpod, I talk to with writer/director Maya Cozier (She Paradise, Dimebag) about Nicki Minaj helping to spark her interest in filmmaking, how she finds inspiration for her short films, how Trinidadians should truly be captured on film, being secure in your creativity, and more.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Todd: So CleAnn, you're from Trinidad and Tobago and you were saying that your country has a very diverse multicultural mix?CleAnn: Yes.Todd: Can you talk about that?CleAnn: Oh sure. Trinidad and Tobago mostly were made up of people from Africa (African descent[/dɪˈsent/,血緣關係，家族關係；祖先；出身]) who came as slaves and Indians who came from India...mostly, I think we may also have some from parts of Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka, but they came as indentured[/ɪnˈden.tʃɚ/,簽訂契約（尤指做學徒）] laborers closer to when slavery was being abolished.These two groups actually make up the two largest ethnic groups in Trinidad. However, there is a lot of mixing. It's very difficult to find someone in Trinidad and Tobago who is extremely, purely of one ethnic group because everyone is sort of mixed.We have also a lot of whites or Caucasians who are native to Trinidad and Tobago who speak exactly like me with my Caribbean accent and many people who find it very strange because they will walk around in Trinidad and think that they are tourists but realize that they are actually native Trinidadians. And many also come from Europe to settle in Trinidad after retirement and have their families here so this is how they came to stay here.We have a very large Chinese population and its growing because now the government is encouraging immigrants from China to come in to help us with our development, to build our capital city so we have a lot of Chinese.We have a lot of Colombians, Venezuelans, people coming from South and Central America migrating to Trinidad because Spanish is now being promoted as a second language for Trinidad so street signs in our capital city are in English and Spanish.So with all of this mixing of different people, it's very, as I said, very difficult to find a person who is of just one ethnic group and it's reflected in our food, it's reflected in the kind of music we listen to, sometimes in the way we dress.For me, for example, I'm mostly of African descent but my dad is mixed with people from South American ethnicity[种族] and Chinese. So, as I said, although I'm mostly African, everybody still has a little bit of something in them.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Todd: So CleAnn, you're from Trinidad and Tobago and you were saying that your country has a very diverse multicultural mix?CleAnn: Yes.Todd: Can you talk about that?CleAnn: Oh sure. Trinidad and Tobago mostly were made up of people from Africa (African descent[/dɪˈsent/,血緣關係，家族關係；祖先；出身]) who came as slaves and Indians who came from India...mostly, I think we may also have some from parts of Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka, but they came as indentured[/ɪnˈden.tʃɚ/,簽訂契約（尤指做學徒）] laborers closer to when slavery was being abolished.These two groups actually make up the two largest ethnic groups in Trinidad. However, there is a lot of mixing. It's very difficult to find someone in Trinidad and Tobago who is extremely, purely of one ethnic group because everyone is sort of mixed.We have also a lot of whites or Caucasians who are native to Trinidad and Tobago who speak exactly like me with my Caribbean accent and many people who find it very strange because they will walk around in Trinidad and think that they are tourists but realize that they are actually native Trinidadians. And many also come from Europe to settle in Trinidad after retirement and have their families here so this is how they came to stay here.We have a very large Chinese population and its growing because now the government is encouraging immigrants from China to come in to help us with our development, to build our capital city so we have a lot of Chinese.We have a lot of Colombians, Venezuelans, people coming from South and Central America migrating to Trinidad because Spanish is now being promoted as a second language for Trinidad so street signs in our capital city are in English and Spanish.So with all of this mixing of different people, it's very, as I said, very difficult to find a person who is of just one ethnic group and it's reflected in our food, it's reflected in the kind of music we listen to, sometimes in the way we dress.For me, for example, I'm mostly of African descent but my dad is mixed with people from South American ethnicity[种族] and Chinese. So, as I said, although I'm mostly African, everybody still has a little bit of something in them.

更多英语知识，请关注微信公众号:VOA英语每日一听Todd: So CleAnn, you're from Trinidad and Tobago and you were saying that your country has a very diverse multicultural mix?CleAnn: Yes.Todd: Can you talk about that?CleAnn: Oh sure. Trinidad and Tobago mostly were made up of people from Africa (African descent[/dɪˈsent/,血緣關係，家族關係；祖先；出身]) who came as slaves and Indians who came from India...mostly, I think we may also have some from parts of Bangladesh, Pakistan, and Sri Lanka, but they came as indentured[/ɪnˈden.tʃɚ/,簽訂契約（尤指做學徒）] laborers closer to when slavery was being abolished.These two groups actually make up the two largest ethnic groups in Trinidad. However, there is a lot of mixing. It's very difficult to find someone in Trinidad and Tobago who is extremely, purely of one ethnic group because everyone is sort of mixed.We have also a lot of whites or Caucasians who are native to Trinidad and Tobago who speak exactly like me with my Caribbean accent and many people who find it very strange because they will walk around in Trinidad and think that they are tourists but realize that they are actually native Trinidadians. And many also come from Europe to settle in Trinidad after retirement and have their families here so this is how they came to stay here.We have a very large Chinese population and its growing because now the government is encouraging immigrants from China to come in to help us with our development, to build our capital city so we have a lot of Chinese.We have a lot of Colombians, Venezuelans, people coming from South and Central America migrating to Trinidad because Spanish is now being promoted as a second language for Trinidad so street signs in our capital city are in English and Spanish.So with all of this mixing of different people, it's very, as I said, very difficult to find a person who is of just one ethnic group and it's reflected in our food, it's reflected in the kind of music we listen to, sometimes in the way we dress.For me, for example, I'm mostly of African descent but my dad is mixed with people from South American ethnicity[种族] and Chinese. So, as I said, although I'm mostly African, everybody still has a little bit of something in them.

Here is the archetype of African culture and exactly what Trinidadians love and promote. https://www.facebook.com/rejectunc/videos/473879926699561/?q=Look%20at%20this%20disaster%20of%20a%20human%20being&epa=SEARCH_BOX --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/specular-effect/support

An appeal to Trinidadians to go back to the "old ways" (dare I say Colonial way) of instilling manners--the foundation of proper values. This is the essence of understanding Register and its varying usages. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/specular-effect/support

In this Facebook Live we evaluate the tensions between the Trinidadians citizens and the Police Officers. We delve into how Africanism has damaged the interactions between the two. Lastly, the "Dindu Syndrome" where the African's inability to self-reflect, take responsibility for actions and in-actions are explored. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/specular-effect/support

Welcome to episode thirty of A History of Rock Music in Five Hundred Songs. This is the last of our three-part look at Chess Records, and focuses on "Bo Diddley" by Bo Diddley. Click the full post to read liner notes, links to more information, and a transcript of the episode.  ----more---- Resources As always, I've created a Mixcloud streaming playlist with full versions of all the songs in the episode.I accidentally used a later rerecording of "I Wish You Would" by Billy Boy Arnold on the playlist, but I use the correct version in the podcast itself. Sorry about that. As this is part three of the Chess Records trilogy, you might want to listen to part one, on the Moonglows, and part two, on Chuck Berry, if you haven't already. Along with the resources mentioned in the previous two episodes, the resource I used most this time was Bo Diddley: Living Legend by George R. White, a strong biography told almost entirely in Diddley's own words from interviews, and the only full-length book on Diddley. This compilation contains Diddley's first six albums plus a bunch of non-album and live tracks, and has everything you're likely to want by Diddley on it, for under ten pounds. If you want to hear more Muddy Waters after hearing his back-and-forth with Diddley, this double CD set is a perfect introduction to him. Patreon This podcast is brought to you by the generosity of my backers on Patreon. Why not join them? Transcript Welcome to the final part of our trilogy about Chess Records. Last week, we looked at Chuck Berry. This week, we're going to deal with someone who may even have been more important. One of the many injustices in copyright law -- and something that we'll have a lot of cause to mention during the course of this series -- is that, for the entire time period covered by this podcast, it was impossible to copyright a groove or a rhythm, but you could copyright a melody line and lyric. And this has led to real inter-racial injustice. In general, black musical culture in the USA has emphasised different aspects of musical invention than white culture has. While white American musical culture -- particularly *rich* white musical culture -- has stressed inventive melodies and harmonic movement -- think of, say, Burt Bacharach or George Gershwin -- it has not historically stressed rhythmic invention. On the other hand, black musical culture has stressed that above everything else -- you'll notice that all the rhythmic innovations we've talked about in this series so far, like boogie woogie, and the backbeat, and the tresillo rhythm, all came from black musicians. That's not, of course, to say that black musicians can't be melodically inventive or white musicians rhythmically -- I'm not here saying "black people have a great sense of rhythm" or any of that racist nonsense. I'm just talking about the way that different cultures have prioritised different things. But this means that when black musicians have produced innovative work, it's not been possible for them to have any intellectual property ownership in the result. You can't steal a melody by Bacharach, but anyone can play a song with a boogie beat, or a shuffle, or a tresillo... or with the Bo Diddley beat. [Very short excerpt: “Bo Diddley”, Bo Diddley] Elias McDaniel's distinctive sound came about because he started performing so young that he couldn't gain entrance to clubs, and so he and his band had to play on street corners. But you can't cart a drum kit around and use it on the streets, so McDaniel and his band came up with various inventive ways to add percussion to the act. At first, they had someone who would come round with a big bag of sand and empty it onto the pavement. He'd then use a brush on the sand, and the noise of the brushing would provide percussion -- at the end of the performance this man, whose name was Sam Daniel but was called Sandman by everyone, would sweep all the sand back up and put it back into his bag for the next show. Eventually, though, Sandman left, and McDaniel hit on the idea of using his girlfriend's neighbour Jerome Green as part of the act. We heard Jerome last week, playing on "Maybellene", but he's someone who there is astonishingly little information about. He doesn't even have a Wikipedia page, and you'll find barely more than a few paragraphs about him online. No-one even knows when he was born or died – *if* he died, though he seems to have disappeared around 1972. And this is quite astonishing when you consider that Green played on all Bo Diddley's classic records, and sang duet on a few of the most successful ones, *and* he played on many of Chuck Berry's, and on various other records by Willie Dixon, Otis Spann, the Moonglows... yet when you Google him, the third hit that comes up is about Robson Green and Jerome Flynn, a nineties soft-pop duo who span out of a soap opera. At first, Jerome's job was to pass the hat around and collect the money, but McDaniel decided to build Jerome a pair of maracas, and teach him how to play. And he learned to play very well indeed, adding a Latin sound to what had previously been just a blues band. Jerome's maracas weren't the only things that Elias McDaniel built, though. He had a knack for technology, though he was always rather modest about his own abilities. He built himself one of the very first tremelo systems for a guitar, making something out of old car bits and electronic junk that would break the electronic signal up. Before commercial tremelo systems existed, McDaniel was the only one who could make his guitar sound like that. The choppy guitar, with its signal breaking up deliberately, and the maracas being shook frantically, gave McDaniel's music a rhythmic drive unlike anything else in rock and roll. McDaniel and his band eventually got their music heard by Leonard Chess at Chess Records. Chess was impressed by a song called "Uncle John", which had lyrics that went "Uncle John's got corn ain't never been shucked/Uncle John's got daughters ain't never been... to school"; but he said the song needed less salacious lyrics, and he suggested retitling it “Bo Diddley”, which also became the stage name of the man who up until now had been called Elias McDaniel. The new lyrics were inspired by the black folk song "Hambone", which a few years earlier had become a novelty hit: [Excerpt: "Hambone", Red Saunders Orchestra with the Hambone Kids] Now, I have to be a bit careful here, because here I'm talking about something that's from a different culture from my own, and my understanding of it is that of an outsider. To *me*, "Hambone" seems to be a unified thing that's part song, part dance, part game. But my understanding may be very, very flawed, and I don't want to pretend to knowledge I don't have. But this is my best understanding of what “Hambone” is. "Hambone", like many folk songs, is not in itself a single song, but a collection of different songs with similar elements. The name comes from a dance which, it is said, dates back to enslaved people attempting to entertain themselves. Slaves in most of the US were banned from using drums, because it was believed they might use them to send messages to each other, so when they wanted to dance and sing music, they would slap different parts of their own bodies to provide percussive accompaniment. Now, I tend to be a little dubious of narratives that claim that aspects of twentieth-century black culture date back to slavery or, as people often claim, to Africa. A lot of the time these turn out to be urban myths of the "ring a ring a roses is about the bubonic plague" kind. One of the real tragedies of slavery is that the African culture that the enslaved black people brought over to the US was largely lost in the ensuing centuries, and so there's a very strong incentive to try to find things that could be a continuation of that. But that's the story around “Hambone”, which is also known as the “Juba beat”. Another influence Diddley would always cite for the lyrical scansion is the song “Hey Baba Reba”, which he would usually misremember as having been by either Cab Calloway or Louis Jordan, but was actually by Lionel Hampton: [Excerpt: Lionel Hampton, “Hey Baba Reba”] But the important thing to note is that the rhythm of all these records is totally different from the rhythm of the song "Bo Diddley". There's a bit of misinformation that goes around in almost every article about Diddley, saying "the Bo Diddley beat is just the 'Hambone' beat", and while Diddley would correct this in almost every interview he ever gave, the misinformation would persist -- to the point that when I first heard "Hambone" I was shocked, because I'd assumed that there must at least have been some slight similarity. There's no similarity at all. And that's not the only song where I've seen claims that there's a Bo Diddley beat where none exists. As a reminder, here's the actual Bo Diddley rhythm: [Very short excerpt: Bo Diddley, “Bo Diddley”] Now the PhD thesis on the development of the backbeat which I talked about back in episode two claims that the beat appears on about thirteen records before Diddley's, mostly by people we've discussed before, like Louis Jordan, Johnny Otis, Fats Domino, and Roy Brown. But here's a couple of examples of the songs that thesis cites. Here's "Mardi Gras in New Orleans" by Fats Domino: [Excerpt: "Mardi Gras in New Orleans, Fats Domino] And here's "That's Your Last Boogie", by Joe Swift, produced by Johnny Otis: [Excerpt: Joe Swift, "That's Your Last Boogie"] As you can hear, they both have something that's *sort of* the Bo Diddley beat, but not really, among their other rhythms. It's most notable at the very start of "That's Your Last Boogie" [Intro: "That's Your Last Boogie"] That's what's called a clave beat -- it's sort of like the tresillo, with an extra bom-bom on the end. Bom bom-bom, bom-bom. That's not the Bo Diddley beat. The Bo Diddley beat actually varies subtly from bar to bar, but it's generally a sort of chunk-a chunk-a-chunk a-chunk a-chunk ah. It certainly stresses the five beats of the clave, but it's not them, and nor is it the "shave and a haircut, two bits" rhythm other people seem to claim for it. Most ridiculously, Wikipedia even claims that the Andrews Sisters' version of Lord Invader's great calypso song, "Rum and Coca Cola", has the Bo Diddley beat: [Excerpt: "Rum and Coca Cola", the Andrews Sisters] Both records have maracas, but that's about it. Incidentally, that song was, in the Andrews Sisters version, credited to a white American thief rather than to the black Trinidadian men who wrote it. Sadly appropriate for a song about the exploitation of Trinidadians for "the Yankee dollar". But none of these records have the Bo Diddley beat, despite what anyone might say. None of them even sound very much like Diddley's beat at all. The origins of the Bo Diddley beat were, believe it or not, with Gene Autry. We've talked before about Autry, who was the biggest Western music star of the late thirties and early forties, and who inspired all sorts of people you wouldn't expect, from Les Paul to Hank Ballard. But Diddley hit upon his rhythm when trying to play Autry's "I've Got Spurs That Jingle Jangle Jingle". [excerpt, Gene Autry, "I've Got Spurs that Jingle Jangle Jingle"] No, I don't see the resemblance either. But this ties back into what we were talking about last week, with the influence of country musicians on the blues and R&B musicians at Chess. And if you become familiar with his later work, it becomes clear that Diddley truly loved the whole iconography of the Western, and country music. He did albums called "Have Guitar Will Travel" (named after the Western TV show "Have Gun Will Travel") and "Bo Diddley is a Gunslinger". Diddley's work is rooted in black folklore -- things like hambone, but also the figure of Stagger Lee and other characters like the Signifying Monkey -- but it should be understood that black American folklore has always included the image of the black cowboy. The combination of these influences – the “Hambone” lyrical ideas, the cowboy rhythm, and the swaggering character Diddley created for himself – became this: [Excerpt: “Bo Diddley” by Bo Diddley] The B-side to the record, meanwhile, was maybe even more important. It's also an early example of Diddley *not* just reusing his signature rhythm. The popular image of Diddley has him as a one-idea artist remaking the same song over and over again -- and certainly he did often return to the Bo Diddley beat -- but he was a far more interesting artist than that, and recorded in a far wider variety of styles than you might imagine. And in "I'm A Man" he took on another artist's style, beating Muddy Waters at his own game. "I'm A Man" was a response to Waters' earlier "Hoochie Coochie Man": [Excerpt: "Hoochie Coochie Man", Muddy Waters] "Hoochie Coochie Man" had been written for Muddy Waters by Willie Dixon and was, as far as I can tell, the first blues record ever to have that da-na-na na-na riff that later became the riff that for most people defines the blues. "Hoochie Coochie Man" had managed to sum up everything about Waters' persona in a way that Waters himself had never managed with his own songs. It combined sexual braggadocio with hoodoo lore -- the character Waters was singing in was possessed of supernatural powers, from the day he was born, and he used those powers to "make pretty women jump and shout". He had a black cat bone, and a mojo, and a John the Conqueror root. It was a great riff, and a great persona, and a great record. But it was still a conventionally structured sixteen-bar blues, with the normal three chords that almost all blues records have. But Bo Diddley heard that and decided that was two chords too many. When you've got a great riff, you don't *need* chord changes, not if you can just hammer on that riff. So he came up with a variant of Dixon's song, and called it "I'm a Man". In his version, there was only the one chord: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, "I'm a Man"] Willie Dixon guested on bass for that song, as it wasn't felt that Diddley's own bass player was getting the feeling right. There were also some changes made to the song in the studio -- as Diddley put it later: "They wanted me to spell 'man', but they weren't explaining it right. They couldn't get me to spell 'man'. I didn't understand what they were talking about!" But eventually he did sing that man is spelled m-a-n, and the song went on to be covered by pretty much every British band of the sixties, and become a blues standard. The most important cover version of it though was when Muddy Waters decided to make his own answer record to Diddley, in which he stated that *he* was a man, not a boy like Diddley. Diddley got a co-writing credit on this, though Willie Dixon, whose riff had been the basis of "I'm a Man", didn't. [Excerpt: Muddy Waters, "Mannish Boy"] And then there was Etta James' answer record, "W.O.M.A.N.", which once again has wild west references in it: [Excerpt: Etta James, "W.O.M.A.N."] And that… "inspired" Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller to write this for Peggy Lee: [Excerpt: Peggy Lee, "I'm A Woman"] Of course, none of those records, except Muddy Waters', gave Bo Diddley a writing credit, just as Diddley didn't credit Dixon for his riff. At the same session as the single was recorded, Diddley's harmonica player, Billy Boy Arnold, recorded a single of his own, backed by Diddley and his band. "I'm Sweet on you Baby" wasn't released at the time, but it's a much more straightforward blues song, and more like Chess' normal releases. Chess were interested in making more records with Arnold, but we'll see that that didn't turn out well: [Excerpt: Billy Boy Arnold, "I'm Sweet on you Baby"] Despite putting out a truly phenomenal single, Diddley hit upon a real problem with his career, and one that would be one of the reasons he was never as popular as contemporaries like Chuck Berry. The problem, at first, looked like anything but. He was booked on the Ed Sullivan Show to promote his first single. The Ed Sullivan Show was the biggest TV show of the fifties and sixties. A variety show presented by the eponymous Sullivan, who somehow even after twenty years of presenting never managed to look or sound remotely comfortable in front of a camera, it was the programme that boosted Elvis Presley from stardom to superstardom, and which turned the Beatles from a local phenomenon in the UK and Europe into the biggest act the world had ever seen. Getting on it was the biggest possible break Diddley could have got, and it should have made his career. Instead, it was a disaster, all because of a misunderstanding. At the time, the country song "Sixteen Tons" by Tennessee Ernie Ford was a big hit: [Excerpt: "Sixteen Tons", Tennessee Ernie Ford] Diddley liked the song -- enough that he would later record his own version of it: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, "Sixteen Tons"] And so he was singing it to himself in his dressing room. One of the production staff happened to walk past and hear him, and asked if he could perform that song on the show. Diddley assumed he was being asked if he would do it as well as the song he was there to promote, and was flattered to be asked to do a second song. [Excerpt: Ed Sullivan introducing "Dr Jive", with all the confusion about what words he's using] When he got out on to the stage he saw the cue card saying "Bo Diddley Sixteen Tons", assumed it meant the song "Bo Diddley" followed by the song "Sixteen Tons", and so he launched into "Bo Diddley". After all, why would he go on the show to promote someone else's record? He was there to promote his own debut single. So of course he was going to play it. This was not what the production person had intended, and was not what Ed Sullivan wanted. Backstage, there was a confrontation that got so heated that Diddley had to be physically restrained from beating Sullivan with his guitar after Sullivan called Diddley a “black boy” (according to Diddley, “black” at that time and in that place, was a racial slur, though it's the polite term to use today). Sullivan yelled and screamed at Diddley and told him he would be blacklisted from network TV, and would certainly never appear on Sullivan's show again under any circumstances. After that first TV appearance, it would be seven years until Diddley's second. And unlike all his contemporaries he didn't even get to appear in films. Even Alan Freed, who greatly respected Diddley and booked him on his live shows, and who Diddley also respected, didn't have him appear in any of the five rock and roll films he made. As far as I can tell, the two minutes he was on the Ed Sullivan show is the only record of Bo Diddley on film or video from 1955 through 1962. And this meant, as well, that Chess put all their promotional efforts behind Chuck Berry, who for all his faults was more welcome in the TV studios. If Diddley wanted success, he had to let his records and live performances do the work for him, because he wasn't getting any help from the media. Luckily, his records were great. Not only was Diddley's first hit one of the great two-sided singles of all time, but his next single was also impressive. The story of "Diddley Daddy" dates back to one of the white cover versions of "Bo Diddley". Essex Records put out this cover version by Jean Dinning, produced by Dave Miller, who had earlier produced Bill Haley and the Comets' first records: [Excerpt: Jean Dinning, "Bo Diddley"] And, as with Georgia Gibbs' version of “Tweedle Dee”, the record label wanted to make the record sound as much like the original as possible, and so tried to get the original musicians to play on it, and made an agreement with Chess. They couldn't get Bo Diddley himself, and without his tremelo guitar it sounded nothing like the original, but they *did* get Willie Dixon on bass, Diddley's drummer Clifton James (who sadly isn't the same Clifton James who played the bumbling sheriff in "Live and Let Die" and "Superman II", though it would be great if he was), and Billy Boy Arnold on harmonica. But Billy Boy Arnold made the mistake of going to Chess and asking for the money he was owed for the session. Leonard Chess didn't like when musicians wanted paying, and complained to Bo Diddley about Arnold. Diddley told Arnold that Chess wasn't happy with him, and so Arnold decided to take a song he'd written, "Diddy Diddy Dum Dum", to another label rather than give it to Chess. He changed the lyrics around a bit, and called it "I Wish You Would": [Excerpt: Billy Boy Arnold, "I Wish You Would"] Arnold actually recorded that for Vee-Jay Records on the very day that Bo Diddley's second single was due to be recorded, and the Diddley session was held up because nobody knew where Arnold was. They eventually found him and got him to Diddley's session -- where Diddley started playing "Diddy Diddy Dum Dum". Leonard Chess suggested letting Arnold sing the song, but Arnold said "I can't -- I just recorded that for VeeJay", and showed Chess the contract. Diddley and Harvey Fuqua, who was there to sing backing vocals with the rest of the Moonglows, quickly reworked the song. Arnold didn't want to play harmonica on something so close to a record he'd just made, though he played on the B-side, and so Muddy Waters' harmonica player Little Walter filled in instead. The new song, entitled "Diddley Daddy", became another of Diddley's signature songs: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, "Diddley Daddy"] but the B-side, "She's Fine, She's Mine", was the one that would truly become influential: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, "She's Fine, She's Mine"] That song was later slightly reworked into this, by Willie Cobbs: [Excerpt: Willie Cobbs, "You Don't Love Me"] That song was covered by pretty much every white guitar band of the late sixties -- the Grateful Dead, Quicksilver Messenger Service, the Allman Brothers, Steve Stills and Al Kooper... the list goes on. But Cobbs' song itself was also slightly reworked, by Dawn Penn, in 1967, and became a minor reggae classic. Twenty-seven years later, in 1994, Penn rerecorded her song, based on Cobbs' song, based on Bo Diddley's song, and it became a worldwide smash hit, with Diddley getting cowriting credit: [Excerpt: Dawn Penn, "You Don't Love Me (No, No, No)"] And *that* has later been covered by Beyonce and Rhianna, and sampled by Ghostface Killah and Usher. And that's how important Bo Diddley was at this point in time. The B-side to his less-good follow-up to his debut provided enough material for sixty years' worth of hits in styles from R&B to jam band to reggae to hip-hop. And the song “Bo Diddley” itself, of course, would provide a rhythm for generations of musicians to take, everyone from Buddy Holly: [Excerpt: Buddy Holly, “Not Fade Away”] to George Michael: [Excerpt George Michael, “Faith”] to U2: [Excerpt: U2, “Desire”] Because that rhythm was so successful – even though most of the success went to white people who didn't credit or pay Diddley – people tend to think of Diddley as a one-idea musician, which is far from the truth. Like many of his contemporaries he only had a short period where he was truly inventive -- his last truly classic track was recorded in 1962. But that period was an astoundingly inventive one, and we're going to be seeing him again during the course of this series. In his first four tracks, Diddley had managed to record three of the most influential tracks in rock history. But the next time we look at him, it will be with a song he wrote for other people -- a song that would indirectly have massive effects on the whole of popular music.  

Welcome to episode thirty of A History of Rock Music in Five Hundred Songs. This is the last of our three-part look at Chess Records, and focuses on “Bo Diddley” by Bo Diddley. Click the full post to read liner notes, links to more information, and a transcript of the episode.  —-more—- Resources As always, I’ve created a Mixcloud streaming playlist with full versions of all the songs in the episode.I accidentally used a later rerecording of “I Wish You Would” by Billy Boy Arnold on the playlist, but I use the correct version in the podcast itself. Sorry about that. As this is part three of the Chess Records trilogy, you might want to listen to part one, on the Moonglows, and part two, on Chuck Berry, if you haven’t already. Along with the resources mentioned in the previous two episodes, the resource I used most this time was Bo Diddley: Living Legend by George R. White, a strong biography told almost entirely in Diddley’s own words from interviews, and the only full-length book on Diddley. This compilation contains Diddley’s first six albums plus a bunch of non-album and live tracks, and has everything you’re likely to want by Diddley on it, for under ten pounds. If you want to hear more Muddy Waters after hearing his back-and-forth with Diddley, this double CD set is a perfect introduction to him. Patreon This podcast is brought to you by the generosity of my backers on Patreon. Why not join them? Transcript Welcome to the final part of our trilogy about Chess Records. Last week, we looked at Chuck Berry. This week, we’re going to deal with someone who may even have been more important. One of the many injustices in copyright law — and something that we’ll have a lot of cause to mention during the course of this series — is that, for the entire time period covered by this podcast, it was impossible to copyright a groove or a rhythm, but you could copyright a melody line and lyric. And this has led to real inter-racial injustice. In general, black musical culture in the USA has emphasised different aspects of musical invention than white culture has. While white American musical culture — particularly *rich* white musical culture — has stressed inventive melodies and harmonic movement — think of, say, Burt Bacharach or George Gershwin — it has not historically stressed rhythmic invention. On the other hand, black musical culture has stressed that above everything else — you’ll notice that all the rhythmic innovations we’ve talked about in this series so far, like boogie woogie, and the backbeat, and the tresillo rhythm, all came from black musicians. That’s not, of course, to say that black musicians can’t be melodically inventive or white musicians rhythmically — I’m not here saying “black people have a great sense of rhythm” or any of that racist nonsense. I’m just talking about the way that different cultures have prioritised different things. But this means that when black musicians have produced innovative work, it’s not been possible for them to have any intellectual property ownership in the result. You can’t steal a melody by Bacharach, but anyone can play a song with a boogie beat, or a shuffle, or a tresillo… or with the Bo Diddley beat. [Very short excerpt: “Bo Diddley”, Bo Diddley] Elias McDaniel’s distinctive sound came about because he started performing so young that he couldn’t gain entrance to clubs, and so he and his band had to play on street corners. But you can’t cart a drum kit around and use it on the streets, so McDaniel and his band came up with various inventive ways to add percussion to the act. At first, they had someone who would come round with a big bag of sand and empty it onto the pavement. He’d then use a brush on the sand, and the noise of the brushing would provide percussion — at the end of the performance this man, whose name was Sam Daniel but was called Sandman by everyone, would sweep all the sand back up and put it back into his bag for the next show. Eventually, though, Sandman left, and McDaniel hit on the idea of using his girlfriend’s neighbour Jerome Green as part of the act. We heard Jerome last week, playing on “Maybellene”, but he’s someone who there is astonishingly little information about. He doesn’t even have a Wikipedia page, and you’ll find barely more than a few paragraphs about him online. No-one even knows when he was born or died – *if* he died, though he seems to have disappeared around 1972. And this is quite astonishing when you consider that Green played on all Bo Diddley’s classic records, and sang duet on a few of the most successful ones, *and* he played on many of Chuck Berry’s, and on various other records by Willie Dixon, Otis Spann, the Moonglows… yet when you Google him, the third hit that comes up is about Robson Green and Jerome Flynn, a nineties soft-pop duo who span out of a soap opera. At first, Jerome’s job was to pass the hat around and collect the money, but McDaniel decided to build Jerome a pair of maracas, and teach him how to play. And he learned to play very well indeed, adding a Latin sound to what had previously been just a blues band. Jerome’s maracas weren’t the only things that Elias McDaniel built, though. He had a knack for technology, though he was always rather modest about his own abilities. He built himself one of the very first tremelo systems for a guitar, making something out of old car bits and electronic junk that would break the electronic signal up. Before commercial tremelo systems existed, McDaniel was the only one who could make his guitar sound like that. The choppy guitar, with its signal breaking up deliberately, and the maracas being shook frantically, gave McDaniel’s music a rhythmic drive unlike anything else in rock and roll. McDaniel and his band eventually got their music heard by Leonard Chess at Chess Records. Chess was impressed by a song called “Uncle John”, which had lyrics that went “Uncle John’s got corn ain’t never been shucked/Uncle John’s got daughters ain’t never been… to school”; but he said the song needed less salacious lyrics, and he suggested retitling it “Bo Diddley”, which also became the stage name of the man who up until now had been called Elias McDaniel. The new lyrics were inspired by the black folk song “Hambone”, which a few years earlier had become a novelty hit: [Excerpt: “Hambone”, Red Saunders Orchestra with the Hambone Kids] Now, I have to be a bit careful here, because here I’m talking about something that’s from a different culture from my own, and my understanding of it is that of an outsider. To *me*, “Hambone” seems to be a unified thing that’s part song, part dance, part game. But my understanding may be very, very flawed, and I don’t want to pretend to knowledge I don’t have. But this is my best understanding of what “Hambone” is. “Hambone”, like many folk songs, is not in itself a single song, but a collection of different songs with similar elements. The name comes from a dance which, it is said, dates back to enslaved people attempting to entertain themselves. Slaves in most of the US were banned from using drums, because it was believed they might use them to send messages to each other, so when they wanted to dance and sing music, they would slap different parts of their own bodies to provide percussive accompaniment. Now, I tend to be a little dubious of narratives that claim that aspects of twentieth-century black culture date back to slavery or, as people often claim, to Africa. A lot of the time these turn out to be urban myths of the “ring a ring a roses is about the bubonic plague” kind. One of the real tragedies of slavery is that the African culture that the enslaved black people brought over to the US was largely lost in the ensuing centuries, and so there’s a very strong incentive to try to find things that could be a continuation of that. But that’s the story around “Hambone”, which is also known as the “Juba beat”. Another influence Diddley would always cite for the lyrical scansion is the song “Hey Baba Reba”, which he would usually misremember as having been by either Cab Calloway or Louis Jordan, but was actually by Lionel Hampton: [Excerpt: Lionel Hampton, “Hey Baba Reba”] But the important thing to note is that the rhythm of all these records is totally different from the rhythm of the song “Bo Diddley”. There’s a bit of misinformation that goes around in almost every article about Diddley, saying “the Bo Diddley beat is just the ‘Hambone’ beat”, and while Diddley would correct this in almost every interview he ever gave, the misinformation would persist — to the point that when I first heard “Hambone” I was shocked, because I’d assumed that there must at least have been some slight similarity. There’s no similarity at all. And that’s not the only song where I’ve seen claims that there’s a Bo Diddley beat where none exists. As a reminder, here’s the actual Bo Diddley rhythm: [Very short excerpt: Bo Diddley, “Bo Diddley”] Now the PhD thesis on the development of the backbeat which I talked about back in episode two claims that the beat appears on about thirteen records before Diddley’s, mostly by people we’ve discussed before, like Louis Jordan, Johnny Otis, Fats Domino, and Roy Brown. But here’s a couple of examples of the songs that thesis cites. Here’s “Mardi Gras in New Orleans” by Fats Domino: [Excerpt: “Mardi Gras in New Orleans, Fats Domino] And here’s “That’s Your Last Boogie”, by Joe Swift, produced by Johnny Otis: [Excerpt: Joe Swift, “That’s Your Last Boogie”] As you can hear, they both have something that’s *sort of* the Bo Diddley beat, but not really, among their other rhythms. It’s most notable at the very start of “That’s Your Last Boogie” [Intro: “That’s Your Last Boogie”] That’s what’s called a clave beat — it’s sort of like the tresillo, with an extra bom-bom on the end. Bom bom-bom, bom-bom. That’s not the Bo Diddley beat. The Bo Diddley beat actually varies subtly from bar to bar, but it’s generally a sort of chunk-a chunk-a-chunk a-chunk a-chunk ah. It certainly stresses the five beats of the clave, but it’s not them, and nor is it the “shave and a haircut, two bits” rhythm other people seem to claim for it. Most ridiculously, Wikipedia even claims that the Andrews Sisters’ version of Lord Invader’s great calypso song, “Rum and Coca Cola”, has the Bo Diddley beat: [Excerpt: “Rum and Coca Cola”, the Andrews Sisters] Both records have maracas, but that’s about it. Incidentally, that song was, in the Andrews Sisters version, credited to a white American thief rather than to the black Trinidadian men who wrote it. Sadly appropriate for a song about the exploitation of Trinidadians for “the Yankee dollar”. But none of these records have the Bo Diddley beat, despite what anyone might say. None of them even sound very much like Diddley’s beat at all. The origins of the Bo Diddley beat were, believe it or not, with Gene Autry. We’ve talked before about Autry, who was the biggest Western music star of the late thirties and early forties, and who inspired all sorts of people you wouldn’t expect, from Les Paul to Hank Ballard. But Diddley hit upon his rhythm when trying to play Autry’s “I’ve Got Spurs That Jingle Jangle Jingle”. [excerpt, Gene Autry, “I’ve Got Spurs that Jingle Jangle Jingle”] No, I don’t see the resemblance either. But this ties back into what we were talking about last week, with the influence of country musicians on the blues and R&B musicians at Chess. And if you become familiar with his later work, it becomes clear that Diddley truly loved the whole iconography of the Western, and country music. He did albums called “Have Guitar Will Travel” (named after the Western TV show “Have Gun Will Travel”) and “Bo Diddley is a Gunslinger”. Diddley’s work is rooted in black folklore — things like hambone, but also the figure of Stagger Lee and other characters like the Signifying Monkey — but it should be understood that black American folklore has always included the image of the black cowboy. The combination of these influences – the “Hambone” lyrical ideas, the cowboy rhythm, and the swaggering character Diddley created for himself – became this: [Excerpt: “Bo Diddley” by Bo Diddley] The B-side to the record, meanwhile, was maybe even more important. It’s also an early example of Diddley *not* just reusing his signature rhythm. The popular image of Diddley has him as a one-idea artist remaking the same song over and over again — and certainly he did often return to the Bo Diddley beat — but he was a far more interesting artist than that, and recorded in a far wider variety of styles than you might imagine. And in “I’m A Man” he took on another artist’s style, beating Muddy Waters at his own game. “I’m A Man” was a response to Waters’ earlier “Hoochie Coochie Man”: [Excerpt: “Hoochie Coochie Man”, Muddy Waters] “Hoochie Coochie Man” had been written for Muddy Waters by Willie Dixon and was, as far as I can tell, the first blues record ever to have that da-na-na na-na riff that later became the riff that for most people defines the blues. “Hoochie Coochie Man” had managed to sum up everything about Waters’ persona in a way that Waters himself had never managed with his own songs. It combined sexual braggadocio with hoodoo lore — the character Waters was singing in was possessed of supernatural powers, from the day he was born, and he used those powers to “make pretty women jump and shout”. He had a black cat bone, and a mojo, and a John the Conqueror root. It was a great riff, and a great persona, and a great record. But it was still a conventionally structured sixteen-bar blues, with the normal three chords that almost all blues records have. But Bo Diddley heard that and decided that was two chords too many. When you’ve got a great riff, you don’t *need* chord changes, not if you can just hammer on that riff. So he came up with a variant of Dixon’s song, and called it “I’m a Man”. In his version, there was only the one chord: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “I’m a Man”] Willie Dixon guested on bass for that song, as it wasn’t felt that Diddley’s own bass player was getting the feeling right. There were also some changes made to the song in the studio — as Diddley put it later: “They wanted me to spell ‘man’, but they weren’t explaining it right. They couldn’t get me to spell ‘man’. I didn’t understand what they were talking about!” But eventually he did sing that man is spelled m-a-n, and the song went on to be covered by pretty much every British band of the sixties, and become a blues standard. The most important cover version of it though was when Muddy Waters decided to make his own answer record to Diddley, in which he stated that *he* was a man, not a boy like Diddley. Diddley got a co-writing credit on this, though Willie Dixon, whose riff had been the basis of “I’m a Man”, didn’t. [Excerpt: Muddy Waters, “Mannish Boy”] And then there was Etta James’ answer record, “W.O.M.A.N.”, which once again has wild west references in it: [Excerpt: Etta James, “W.O.M.A.N.”] And that… “inspired” Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller to write this for Peggy Lee: [Excerpt: Peggy Lee, “I’m A Woman”] Of course, none of those records, except Muddy Waters’, gave Bo Diddley a writing credit, just as Diddley didn’t credit Dixon for his riff. At the same session as the single was recorded, Diddley’s harmonica player, Billy Boy Arnold, recorded a single of his own, backed by Diddley and his band. “I’m Sweet on you Baby” wasn’t released at the time, but it’s a much more straightforward blues song, and more like Chess’ normal releases. Chess were interested in making more records with Arnold, but we’ll see that that didn’t turn out well: [Excerpt: Billy Boy Arnold, “I’m Sweet on you Baby”] Despite putting out a truly phenomenal single, Diddley hit upon a real problem with his career, and one that would be one of the reasons he was never as popular as contemporaries like Chuck Berry. The problem, at first, looked like anything but. He was booked on the Ed Sullivan Show to promote his first single. The Ed Sullivan Show was the biggest TV show of the fifties and sixties. A variety show presented by the eponymous Sullivan, who somehow even after twenty years of presenting never managed to look or sound remotely comfortable in front of a camera, it was the programme that boosted Elvis Presley from stardom to superstardom, and which turned the Beatles from a local phenomenon in the UK and Europe into the biggest act the world had ever seen. Getting on it was the biggest possible break Diddley could have got, and it should have made his career. Instead, it was a disaster, all because of a misunderstanding. At the time, the country song “Sixteen Tons” by Tennessee Ernie Ford was a big hit: [Excerpt: “Sixteen Tons”, Tennessee Ernie Ford] Diddley liked the song — enough that he would later record his own version of it: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “Sixteen Tons”] And so he was singing it to himself in his dressing room. One of the production staff happened to walk past and hear him, and asked if he could perform that song on the show. Diddley assumed he was being asked if he would do it as well as the song he was there to promote, and was flattered to be asked to do a second song. [Excerpt: Ed Sullivan introducing “Dr Jive”, with all the confusion about what words he’s using] When he got out on to the stage he saw the cue card saying “Bo Diddley Sixteen Tons”, assumed it meant the song “Bo Diddley” followed by the song “Sixteen Tons”, and so he launched into “Bo Diddley”. After all, why would he go on the show to promote someone else’s record? He was there to promote his own debut single. So of course he was going to play it. This was not what the production person had intended, and was not what Ed Sullivan wanted. Backstage, there was a confrontation that got so heated that Diddley had to be physically restrained from beating Sullivan with his guitar after Sullivan called Diddley a “black boy” (according to Diddley, “black” at that time and in that place, was a racial slur, though it’s the polite term to use today). Sullivan yelled and screamed at Diddley and told him he would be blacklisted from network TV, and would certainly never appear on Sullivan’s show again under any circumstances. After that first TV appearance, it would be seven years until Diddley’s second. And unlike all his contemporaries he didn’t even get to appear in films. Even Alan Freed, who greatly respected Diddley and booked him on his live shows, and who Diddley also respected, didn’t have him appear in any of the five rock and roll films he made. As far as I can tell, the two minutes he was on the Ed Sullivan show is the only record of Bo Diddley on film or video from 1955 through 1962. And this meant, as well, that Chess put all their promotional efforts behind Chuck Berry, who for all his faults was more welcome in the TV studios. If Diddley wanted success, he had to let his records and live performances do the work for him, because he wasn’t getting any help from the media. Luckily, his records were great. Not only was Diddley’s first hit one of the great two-sided singles of all time, but his next single was also impressive. The story of “Diddley Daddy” dates back to one of the white cover versions of “Bo Diddley”. Essex Records put out this cover version by Jean Dinning, produced by Dave Miller, who had earlier produced Bill Haley and the Comets’ first records: [Excerpt: Jean Dinning, “Bo Diddley”] And, as with Georgia Gibbs’ version of “Tweedle Dee”, the record label wanted to make the record sound as much like the original as possible, and so tried to get the original musicians to play on it, and made an agreement with Chess. They couldn’t get Bo Diddley himself, and without his tremelo guitar it sounded nothing like the original, but they *did* get Willie Dixon on bass, Diddley’s drummer Clifton James (who sadly isn’t the same Clifton James who played the bumbling sheriff in “Live and Let Die” and “Superman II”, though it would be great if he was), and Billy Boy Arnold on harmonica. But Billy Boy Arnold made the mistake of going to Chess and asking for the money he was owed for the session. Leonard Chess didn’t like when musicians wanted paying, and complained to Bo Diddley about Arnold. Diddley told Arnold that Chess wasn’t happy with him, and so Arnold decided to take a song he’d written, “Diddy Diddy Dum Dum”, to another label rather than give it to Chess. He changed the lyrics around a bit, and called it “I Wish You Would”: [Excerpt: Billy Boy Arnold, “I Wish You Would”] Arnold actually recorded that for Vee-Jay Records on the very day that Bo Diddley’s second single was due to be recorded, and the Diddley session was held up because nobody knew where Arnold was. They eventually found him and got him to Diddley’s session — where Diddley started playing “Diddy Diddy Dum Dum”. Leonard Chess suggested letting Arnold sing the song, but Arnold said “I can’t — I just recorded that for VeeJay”, and showed Chess the contract. Diddley and Harvey Fuqua, who was there to sing backing vocals with the rest of the Moonglows, quickly reworked the song. Arnold didn’t want to play harmonica on something so close to a record he’d just made, though he played on the B-side, and so Muddy Waters’ harmonica player Little Walter filled in instead. The new song, entitled “Diddley Daddy”, became another of Diddley’s signature songs: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “Diddley Daddy”] but the B-side, “She’s Fine, She’s Mine”, was the one that would truly become influential: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “She’s Fine, She’s Mine”] That song was later slightly reworked into this, by Willie Cobbs: [Excerpt: Willie Cobbs, “You Don’t Love Me”] That song was covered by pretty much every white guitar band of the late sixties — the Grateful Dead, Quicksilver Messenger Service, the Allman Brothers, Steve Stills and Al Kooper… the list goes on. But Cobbs’ song itself was also slightly reworked, by Dawn Penn, in 1967, and became a minor reggae classic. Twenty-seven years later, in 1994, Penn rerecorded her song, based on Cobbs’ song, based on Bo Diddley’s song, and it became a worldwide smash hit, with Diddley getting cowriting credit: [Excerpt: Dawn Penn, “You Don’t Love Me (No, No, No)”] And *that* has later been covered by Beyonce and Rhianna, and sampled by Ghostface Killah and Usher. And that’s how important Bo Diddley was at this point in time. The B-side to his less-good follow-up to his debut provided enough material for sixty years’ worth of hits in styles from R&B to jam band to reggae to hip-hop. And the song “Bo Diddley” itself, of course, would provide a rhythm for generations of musicians to take, everyone from Buddy Holly: [Excerpt: Buddy Holly, “Not Fade Away”] to George Michael: [Excerpt George Michael, “Faith”] to U2: [Excerpt: U2, “Desire”] Because that rhythm was so successful – even though most of the success went to white people who didn’t credit or pay Diddley – people tend to think of Diddley as a one-idea musician, which is far from the truth. Like many of his contemporaries he only had a short period where he was truly inventive — his last truly classic track was recorded in 1962. But that period was an astoundingly inventive one, and we’re going to be seeing him again during the course of this series. In his first four tracks, Diddley had managed to record three of the most influential tracks in rock history. But the next time we look at him, it will be with a song he wrote for other people — a song that would indirectly have massive effects on the whole of popular music.  

Welcome to episode thirty of A History of Rock Music in Five Hundred Songs. This is the last of our three-part look at Chess Records, and focuses on “Bo Diddley” by Bo Diddley. Click the full post to read liner notes, links to more information, and a transcript of the episode.  —-more—- Resources As always, I’ve created a Mixcloud streaming playlist with full versions of all the songs in the episode.I accidentally used a later rerecording of “I Wish You Would” by Billy Boy Arnold on the playlist, but I use the correct version in the podcast itself. Sorry about that. As this is part three of the Chess Records trilogy, you might want to listen to part one, on the Moonglows, and part two, on Chuck Berry, if you haven’t already. Along with the resources mentioned in the previous two episodes, the resource I used most this time was Bo Diddley: Living Legend by George R. White, a strong biography told almost entirely in Diddley’s own words from interviews, and the only full-length book on Diddley. This compilation contains Diddley’s first six albums plus a bunch of non-album and live tracks, and has everything you’re likely to want by Diddley on it, for under ten pounds. If you want to hear more Muddy Waters after hearing his back-and-forth with Diddley, this double CD set is a perfect introduction to him. Patreon This podcast is brought to you by the generosity of my backers on Patreon. Why not join them? Transcript Welcome to the final part of our trilogy about Chess Records. Last week, we looked at Chuck Berry. This week, we’re going to deal with someone who may even have been more important. One of the many injustices in copyright law — and something that we’ll have a lot of cause to mention during the course of this series — is that, for the entire time period covered by this podcast, it was impossible to copyright a groove or a rhythm, but you could copyright a melody line and lyric. And this has led to real inter-racial injustice. In general, black musical culture in the USA has emphasised different aspects of musical invention than white culture has. While white American musical culture — particularly *rich* white musical culture — has stressed inventive melodies and harmonic movement — think of, say, Burt Bacharach or George Gershwin — it has not historically stressed rhythmic invention. On the other hand, black musical culture has stressed that above everything else — you’ll notice that all the rhythmic innovations we’ve talked about in this series so far, like boogie woogie, and the backbeat, and the tresillo rhythm, all came from black musicians. That’s not, of course, to say that black musicians can’t be melodically inventive or white musicians rhythmically — I’m not here saying “black people have a great sense of rhythm” or any of that racist nonsense. I’m just talking about the way that different cultures have prioritised different things. But this means that when black musicians have produced innovative work, it’s not been possible for them to have any intellectual property ownership in the result. You can’t steal a melody by Bacharach, but anyone can play a song with a boogie beat, or a shuffle, or a tresillo… or with the Bo Diddley beat. [Very short excerpt: “Bo Diddley”, Bo Diddley] Elias McDaniel’s distinctive sound came about because he started performing so young that he couldn’t gain entrance to clubs, and so he and his band had to play on street corners. But you can’t cart a drum kit around and use it on the streets, so McDaniel and his band came up with various inventive ways to add percussion to the act. At first, they had someone who would come round with a big bag of sand and empty it onto the pavement. He’d then use a brush on the sand, and the noise of the brushing would provide percussion — at the end of the performance this man, whose name was Sam Daniel but was called Sandman by everyone, would sweep all the sand back up and put it back into his bag for the next show. Eventually, though, Sandman left, and McDaniel hit on the idea of using his girlfriend’s neighbour Jerome Green as part of the act. We heard Jerome last week, playing on “Maybellene”, but he’s someone who there is astonishingly little information about. He doesn’t even have a Wikipedia page, and you’ll find barely more than a few paragraphs about him online. No-one even knows when he was born or died – *if* he died, though he seems to have disappeared around 1972. And this is quite astonishing when you consider that Green played on all Bo Diddley’s classic records, and sang duet on a few of the most successful ones, *and* he played on many of Chuck Berry’s, and on various other records by Willie Dixon, Otis Spann, the Moonglows… yet when you Google him, the third hit that comes up is about Robson Green and Jerome Flynn, a nineties soft-pop duo who span out of a soap opera. At first, Jerome’s job was to pass the hat around and collect the money, but McDaniel decided to build Jerome a pair of maracas, and teach him how to play. And he learned to play very well indeed, adding a Latin sound to what had previously been just a blues band. Jerome’s maracas weren’t the only things that Elias McDaniel built, though. He had a knack for technology, though he was always rather modest about his own abilities. He built himself one of the very first tremelo systems for a guitar, making something out of old car bits and electronic junk that would break the electronic signal up. Before commercial tremelo systems existed, McDaniel was the only one who could make his guitar sound like that. The choppy guitar, with its signal breaking up deliberately, and the maracas being shook frantically, gave McDaniel’s music a rhythmic drive unlike anything else in rock and roll. McDaniel and his band eventually got their music heard by Leonard Chess at Chess Records. Chess was impressed by a song called “Uncle John”, which had lyrics that went “Uncle John’s got corn ain’t never been shucked/Uncle John’s got daughters ain’t never been… to school”; but he said the song needed less salacious lyrics, and he suggested retitling it “Bo Diddley”, which also became the stage name of the man who up until now had been called Elias McDaniel. The new lyrics were inspired by the black folk song “Hambone”, which a few years earlier had become a novelty hit: [Excerpt: “Hambone”, Red Saunders Orchestra with the Hambone Kids] Now, I have to be a bit careful here, because here I’m talking about something that’s from a different culture from my own, and my understanding of it is that of an outsider. To *me*, “Hambone” seems to be a unified thing that’s part song, part dance, part game. But my understanding may be very, very flawed, and I don’t want to pretend to knowledge I don’t have. But this is my best understanding of what “Hambone” is. “Hambone”, like many folk songs, is not in itself a single song, but a collection of different songs with similar elements. The name comes from a dance which, it is said, dates back to enslaved people attempting to entertain themselves. Slaves in most of the US were banned from using drums, because it was believed they might use them to send messages to each other, so when they wanted to dance and sing music, they would slap different parts of their own bodies to provide percussive accompaniment. Now, I tend to be a little dubious of narratives that claim that aspects of twentieth-century black culture date back to slavery or, as people often claim, to Africa. A lot of the time these turn out to be urban myths of the “ring a ring a roses is about the bubonic plague” kind. One of the real tragedies of slavery is that the African culture that the enslaved black people brought over to the US was largely lost in the ensuing centuries, and so there’s a very strong incentive to try to find things that could be a continuation of that. But that’s the story around “Hambone”, which is also known as the “Juba beat”. Another influence Diddley would always cite for the lyrical scansion is the song “Hey Baba Reba”, which he would usually misremember as having been by either Cab Calloway or Louis Jordan, but was actually by Lionel Hampton: [Excerpt: Lionel Hampton, “Hey Baba Reba”] But the important thing to note is that the rhythm of all these records is totally different from the rhythm of the song “Bo Diddley”. There’s a bit of misinformation that goes around in almost every article about Diddley, saying “the Bo Diddley beat is just the ‘Hambone’ beat”, and while Diddley would correct this in almost every interview he ever gave, the misinformation would persist — to the point that when I first heard “Hambone” I was shocked, because I’d assumed that there must at least have been some slight similarity. There’s no similarity at all. And that’s not the only song where I’ve seen claims that there’s a Bo Diddley beat where none exists. As a reminder, here’s the actual Bo Diddley rhythm: [Very short excerpt: Bo Diddley, “Bo Diddley”] Now the PhD thesis on the development of the backbeat which I talked about back in episode two claims that the beat appears on about thirteen records before Diddley’s, mostly by people we’ve discussed before, like Louis Jordan, Johnny Otis, Fats Domino, and Roy Brown. But here’s a couple of examples of the songs that thesis cites. Here’s “Mardi Gras in New Orleans” by Fats Domino: [Excerpt: “Mardi Gras in New Orleans, Fats Domino] And here’s “That’s Your Last Boogie”, by Joe Swift, produced by Johnny Otis: [Excerpt: Joe Swift, “That’s Your Last Boogie”] As you can hear, they both have something that’s *sort of* the Bo Diddley beat, but not really, among their other rhythms. It’s most notable at the very start of “That’s Your Last Boogie” [Intro: “That’s Your Last Boogie”] That’s what’s called a clave beat — it’s sort of like the tresillo, with an extra bom-bom on the end. Bom bom-bom, bom-bom. That’s not the Bo Diddley beat. The Bo Diddley beat actually varies subtly from bar to bar, but it’s generally a sort of chunk-a chunk-a-chunk a-chunk a-chunk ah. It certainly stresses the five beats of the clave, but it’s not them, and nor is it the “shave and a haircut, two bits” rhythm other people seem to claim for it. Most ridiculously, Wikipedia even claims that the Andrews Sisters’ version of Lord Invader’s great calypso song, “Rum and Coca Cola”, has the Bo Diddley beat: [Excerpt: “Rum and Coca Cola”, the Andrews Sisters] Both records have maracas, but that’s about it. Incidentally, that song was, in the Andrews Sisters version, credited to a white American thief rather than to the black Trinidadian men who wrote it. Sadly appropriate for a song about the exploitation of Trinidadians for “the Yankee dollar”. But none of these records have the Bo Diddley beat, despite what anyone might say. None of them even sound very much like Diddley’s beat at all. The origins of the Bo Diddley beat were, believe it or not, with Gene Autry. We’ve talked before about Autry, who was the biggest Western music star of the late thirties and early forties, and who inspired all sorts of people you wouldn’t expect, from Les Paul to Hank Ballard. But Diddley hit upon his rhythm when trying to play Autry’s “I’ve Got Spurs That Jingle Jangle Jingle”. [excerpt, Gene Autry, “I’ve Got Spurs that Jingle Jangle Jingle”] No, I don’t see the resemblance either. But this ties back into what we were talking about last week, with the influence of country musicians on the blues and R&B musicians at Chess. And if you become familiar with his later work, it becomes clear that Diddley truly loved the whole iconography of the Western, and country music. He did albums called “Have Guitar Will Travel” (named after the Western TV show “Have Gun Will Travel”) and “Bo Diddley is a Gunslinger”. Diddley’s work is rooted in black folklore — things like hambone, but also the figure of Stagger Lee and other characters like the Signifying Monkey — but it should be understood that black American folklore has always included the image of the black cowboy. The combination of these influences – the “Hambone” lyrical ideas, the cowboy rhythm, and the swaggering character Diddley created for himself – became this: [Excerpt: “Bo Diddley” by Bo Diddley] The B-side to the record, meanwhile, was maybe even more important. It’s also an early example of Diddley *not* just reusing his signature rhythm. The popular image of Diddley has him as a one-idea artist remaking the same song over and over again — and certainly he did often return to the Bo Diddley beat — but he was a far more interesting artist than that, and recorded in a far wider variety of styles than you might imagine. And in “I’m A Man” he took on another artist’s style, beating Muddy Waters at his own game. “I’m A Man” was a response to Waters’ earlier “Hoochie Coochie Man”: [Excerpt: “Hoochie Coochie Man”, Muddy Waters] “Hoochie Coochie Man” had been written for Muddy Waters by Willie Dixon and was, as far as I can tell, the first blues record ever to have that da-na-na na-na riff that later became the riff that for most people defines the blues. “Hoochie Coochie Man” had managed to sum up everything about Waters’ persona in a way that Waters himself had never managed with his own songs. It combined sexual braggadocio with hoodoo lore — the character Waters was singing in was possessed of supernatural powers, from the day he was born, and he used those powers to “make pretty women jump and shout”. He had a black cat bone, and a mojo, and a John the Conqueror root. It was a great riff, and a great persona, and a great record. But it was still a conventionally structured sixteen-bar blues, with the normal three chords that almost all blues records have. But Bo Diddley heard that and decided that was two chords too many. When you’ve got a great riff, you don’t *need* chord changes, not if you can just hammer on that riff. So he came up with a variant of Dixon’s song, and called it “I’m a Man”. In his version, there was only the one chord: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “I’m a Man”] Willie Dixon guested on bass for that song, as it wasn’t felt that Diddley’s own bass player was getting the feeling right. There were also some changes made to the song in the studio — as Diddley put it later: “They wanted me to spell ‘man’, but they weren’t explaining it right. They couldn’t get me to spell ‘man’. I didn’t understand what they were talking about!” But eventually he did sing that man is spelled m-a-n, and the song went on to be covered by pretty much every British band of the sixties, and become a blues standard. The most important cover version of it though was when Muddy Waters decided to make his own answer record to Diddley, in which he stated that *he* was a man, not a boy like Diddley. Diddley got a co-writing credit on this, though Willie Dixon, whose riff had been the basis of “I’m a Man”, didn’t. [Excerpt: Muddy Waters, “Mannish Boy”] And then there was Etta James’ answer record, “W.O.M.A.N.”, which once again has wild west references in it: [Excerpt: Etta James, “W.O.M.A.N.”] And that… “inspired” Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller to write this for Peggy Lee: [Excerpt: Peggy Lee, “I’m A Woman”] Of course, none of those records, except Muddy Waters’, gave Bo Diddley a writing credit, just as Diddley didn’t credit Dixon for his riff. At the same session as the single was recorded, Diddley’s harmonica player, Billy Boy Arnold, recorded a single of his own, backed by Diddley and his band. “I’m Sweet on you Baby” wasn’t released at the time, but it’s a much more straightforward blues song, and more like Chess’ normal releases. Chess were interested in making more records with Arnold, but we’ll see that that didn’t turn out well: [Excerpt: Billy Boy Arnold, “I’m Sweet on you Baby”] Despite putting out a truly phenomenal single, Diddley hit upon a real problem with his career, and one that would be one of the reasons he was never as popular as contemporaries like Chuck Berry. The problem, at first, looked like anything but. He was booked on the Ed Sullivan Show to promote his first single. The Ed Sullivan Show was the biggest TV show of the fifties and sixties. A variety show presented by the eponymous Sullivan, who somehow even after twenty years of presenting never managed to look or sound remotely comfortable in front of a camera, it was the programme that boosted Elvis Presley from stardom to superstardom, and which turned the Beatles from a local phenomenon in the UK and Europe into the biggest act the world had ever seen. Getting on it was the biggest possible break Diddley could have got, and it should have made his career. Instead, it was a disaster, all because of a misunderstanding. At the time, the country song “Sixteen Tons” by Tennessee Ernie Ford was a big hit: [Excerpt: “Sixteen Tons”, Tennessee Ernie Ford] Diddley liked the song — enough that he would later record his own version of it: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “Sixteen Tons”] And so he was singing it to himself in his dressing room. One of the production staff happened to walk past and hear him, and asked if he could perform that song on the show. Diddley assumed he was being asked if he would do it as well as the song he was there to promote, and was flattered to be asked to do a second song. [Excerpt: Ed Sullivan introducing “Dr Jive”, with all the confusion about what words he’s using] When he got out on to the stage he saw the cue card saying “Bo Diddley Sixteen Tons”, assumed it meant the song “Bo Diddley” followed by the song “Sixteen Tons”, and so he launched into “Bo Diddley”. After all, why would he go on the show to promote someone else’s record? He was there to promote his own debut single. So of course he was going to play it. This was not what the production person had intended, and was not what Ed Sullivan wanted. Backstage, there was a confrontation that got so heated that Diddley had to be physically restrained from beating Sullivan with his guitar after Sullivan called Diddley a “black boy” (according to Diddley, “black” at that time and in that place, was a racial slur, though it’s the polite term to use today). Sullivan yelled and screamed at Diddley and told him he would be blacklisted from network TV, and would certainly never appear on Sullivan’s show again under any circumstances. After that first TV appearance, it would be seven years until Diddley’s second. And unlike all his contemporaries he didn’t even get to appear in films. Even Alan Freed, who greatly respected Diddley and booked him on his live shows, and who Diddley also respected, didn’t have him appear in any of the five rock and roll films he made. As far as I can tell, the two minutes he was on the Ed Sullivan show is the only record of Bo Diddley on film or video from 1955 through 1962. And this meant, as well, that Chess put all their promotional efforts behind Chuck Berry, who for all his faults was more welcome in the TV studios. If Diddley wanted success, he had to let his records and live performances do the work for him, because he wasn’t getting any help from the media. Luckily, his records were great. Not only was Diddley’s first hit one of the great two-sided singles of all time, but his next single was also impressive. The story of “Diddley Daddy” dates back to one of the white cover versions of “Bo Diddley”. Essex Records put out this cover version by Jean Dinning, produced by Dave Miller, who had earlier produced Bill Haley and the Comets’ first records: [Excerpt: Jean Dinning, “Bo Diddley”] And, as with Georgia Gibbs’ version of “Tweedle Dee”, the record label wanted to make the record sound as much like the original as possible, and so tried to get the original musicians to play on it, and made an agreement with Chess. They couldn’t get Bo Diddley himself, and without his tremelo guitar it sounded nothing like the original, but they *did* get Willie Dixon on bass, Diddley’s drummer Clifton James (who sadly isn’t the same Clifton James who played the bumbling sheriff in “Live and Let Die” and “Superman II”, though it would be great if he was), and Billy Boy Arnold on harmonica. But Billy Boy Arnold made the mistake of going to Chess and asking for the money he was owed for the session. Leonard Chess didn’t like when musicians wanted paying, and complained to Bo Diddley about Arnold. Diddley told Arnold that Chess wasn’t happy with him, and so Arnold decided to take a song he’d written, “Diddy Diddy Dum Dum”, to another label rather than give it to Chess. He changed the lyrics around a bit, and called it “I Wish You Would”: [Excerpt: Billy Boy Arnold, “I Wish You Would”] Arnold actually recorded that for Vee-Jay Records on the very day that Bo Diddley’s second single was due to be recorded, and the Diddley session was held up because nobody knew where Arnold was. They eventually found him and got him to Diddley’s session — where Diddley started playing “Diddy Diddy Dum Dum”. Leonard Chess suggested letting Arnold sing the song, but Arnold said “I can’t — I just recorded that for VeeJay”, and showed Chess the contract. Diddley and Harvey Fuqua, who was there to sing backing vocals with the rest of the Moonglows, quickly reworked the song. Arnold didn’t want to play harmonica on something so close to a record he’d just made, though he played on the B-side, and so Muddy Waters’ harmonica player Little Walter filled in instead. The new song, entitled “Diddley Daddy”, became another of Diddley’s signature songs: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “Diddley Daddy”] but the B-side, “She’s Fine, She’s Mine”, was the one that would truly become influential: [Excerpt: Bo Diddley, “She’s Fine, She’s Mine”] That song was later slightly reworked into this, by Willie Cobbs: [Excerpt: Willie Cobbs, “You Don’t Love Me”] That song was covered by pretty much every white guitar band of the late sixties — the Grateful Dead, Quicksilver Messenger Service, the Allman Brothers, Steve Stills and Al Kooper… the list goes on. But Cobbs’ song itself was also slightly reworked, by Dawn Penn, in 1967, and became a minor reggae classic. Twenty-seven years later, in 1994, Penn rerecorded her song, based on Cobbs’ song, based on Bo Diddley’s song, and it became a worldwide smash hit, with Diddley getting cowriting credit: [Excerpt: Dawn Penn, “You Don’t Love Me (No, No, No)”] And *that* has later been covered by Beyonce and Rhianna, and sampled by Ghostface Killah and Usher. And that’s how important Bo Diddley was at this point in time. The B-side to his less-good follow-up to his debut provided enough material for sixty years’ worth of hits in styles from R&B to jam band to reggae to hip-hop. And the song “Bo Diddley” itself, of course, would provide a rhythm for generations of musicians to take, everyone from Buddy Holly: [Excerpt: Buddy Holly, “Not Fade Away”] to George Michael: [Excerpt George Michael, “Faith”] to U2: [Excerpt: U2, “Desire”] Because that rhythm was so successful – even though most of the success went to white people who didn’t credit or pay Diddley – people tend to think of Diddley as a one-idea musician, which is far from the truth. Like many of his contemporaries he only had a short period where he was truly inventive — his last truly classic track was recorded in 1962. But that period was an astoundingly inventive one, and we’re going to be seeing him again during the course of this series. In his first four tracks, Diddley had managed to record three of the most influential tracks in rock history. But the next time we look at him, it will be with a song he wrote for other people — a song that would indirectly have massive effects on the whole of popular music.  

Brian Doubt is a Canadian/Guyanese international who visited Trinidad and was arrested. His story is worth telling and hearing for it can help us as Trinidadians change and re-shape our society. --- Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/specular-effect/support

Trinidadians call their annual Carnival "the greatest show on earth," and with good reason. The Carnival season brims over with art and music: steelpan, calypso, soca and extravagant masquerade costumes. In this program, we take a look at how these Carnival arts are kept alive in today's Trinidad. At this moment in time, Carnival is in flux. Commercialism is in tension with creativity; global outlooks conflict with local identity. But, through it all, life goes on and excellent music flows. Open your ears to some life-giving music and conversations about Trinidad and its brilliant bacchanal. Produced by Sebastian Bouknight APWW #774

Happy Monday!!! Conversations with Friends Episode 14 is a conversation with my friend, Rhesa Napoli. Rhesa and I met in Portland a couple of years back over some plant based convo and I am super excited to share her passion and knowledge with you all today!!! Rhesa is a healer, walking her path to learn her most valuable healing tools. She is a naturopath in Portland, OR, working to get her energy into the community and around the bodies that need it most. Rhesa and I met in an attempt to have her work with my family at our juice bar in Portland just so she could connect with the community. She is driven to serve.  Rhesa is currently living in a small neighborhood in Portland that is overcoming years of challenges. She recently joined the Board of Green Lents, a local non-profit organization started by Jalene Littlejohn. Green Lents is a grassroots group dedicated to adding to the Lents community. Rhesa and I worked on the local food forest together as neighbors in Lents. Tuning into sustainable, land restorative food growing practices really matters to Rhesa and she is working towards finding ways to spread plant healing powers to the many. Tune into our most recent convo and learn a bit more about naturopathy, how herbalism is working in other countries and we even get into where God is from... the Trinidadians believe he is a local... though has her moved???!!! Rhesa, thank you for being a part of the show love. You inspired my heart into new realms and work. I am so grateful we are to move parts of this path together. I miss my friends in Lents deeply, though knowing our bonds are true and planted in the healing of SELF, sets me walking with you all so close. I look forward to the work we do in the coming days, sis. Sending massive love on your journey. Tune in family!!! We got a vibe growing :) --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/conversationswithfriends/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/conversationswithfriends/support

​Trinidadians call their annual Carnival festivities "the greatest show on earth" and with good reason. The Carnival season is overflowing with art and music: steelpan, calypso, soca and extravagant masquerade costumes. On this Afropop program, we take a look at how the Carnival arts are kept alive in today's Trinidad, in an untidy, evolving cultural, economic and political landscape at home and abroad. Open your ears to some life-giving music and conversations about Trinidad and its brilliant bacchanal. Produced by Sebastian Bouknight. APWW PGM #774​​

In 1967 thirty men left Trinidad with 97 steel drums to represent their country at the World’s Fair in Montreal. None of them had ever been off their island before. They were members of the Esso Trinidad Tripoli Steel Band, all playing “pan,” the steel drums of Calypso, hammered from the leftover oil drums of World War II. The band took Expo ’67 by storm. And their sound and performance caught the ear of one of the most popular entertainers of the day: Liberace. The glittery piano virtuoso hired the Trinidad Tripoli Steel Band to go on the road with him for the next two years — traveling to cities large and small around the world including towns in George Wallace’s segregated south. One flamboyant rhinestoned white piano player and 30 black steel drummers from Trinidad playing Flight of the Bumblebee. We travel to Trinidad and trace the history of the steel drum and follow the Esso Trinidad Tripoli Steel Band from the streets of Port of Spain to the Ed Sullivan Show. Steel pan was born on the island of Trinidad in the late 1930s. It began as an outlaw instrument, hammered from milk tins, biscuit boxes, brake drums, garbage cans — and later, the oil barrels that were scattered across the oil-rich island after World War II. When the bands first started, anything metal that could be scavenged was “tuned” and played to make a sound, a note. Pan began as the music of the island’s poor, before Trinidad’s independence from Britain. For the native Trinidadians under British rule, the beating of drums and marching in Carnival was often forbidden. As the oil drums evolved, dozens of pan bands — some more than 100 members strong — sprang up in neighborhoods across the island. Casablanca, Destination Tokyo, Desperadoes, Tripoli… they named themselves after the American war movies and Westerns of the day. Come Carnival, the steel bands would battle one another for the championship, marching across Port of Spain waging musical war — a tradition that continues today. When the island gained its independence in the 1960s, the foreign companies that controlled the oil resources of Trinidad worried about nationalization of their businesses. The island’s prime minister declared steel pan music an important, vital expression of the Trinidadian people. British Petroleum, Esso and other oil companies looking to sway public opinion began sponsoring neighborhood oil drum orchestras, supplying instruments, uniforms and the money to tour outside Trinidad. In 1967, the Esso Trinidad Tripoli Steel Band (named after the World War II movie Shores of Tripoli) was sent by the government and the Esso oil company to represent Trinidad and the nation’s musical heritage at the Montreal Expo World’s Fair.

Maeve whisks us around the city and checks in with immigrants from all over the world to see how everybody is preparing for the holidays. We meet a group of Trinidadians having a Kwanzaa feast, we crash a Mexican Posada and hear from Silicon Valley’s Kumail Nanjiani, who shares his memories of Eid celebrations in Pakistan and his love of dessert days here in the U.S. - that’s a tradition he invented where you have dessert for every meal. We glimpse some Diwali lights still glittering across Queens as an Israeli couple delight in the freedom of Hanukkah away from home. And Kavita Pawria Sanchez, the assistant Commissioner at the Mayor’s Office of Immigrant Affairs, plays Two Truths and a Lie with us.

From our WorldWide Series: Blind Abilities presents Marlon Parieaho, a blindness advocate, podcaster and blogger from the nation of Trinidad & tobago. Jeff and Pete present an in depth look at this remarkable man: a police officer, blogger and creator of his new podcast, Dreevay In The Dark. Check out Dreevay on iTunes or your favorite pod catcher. Marlon’s blog can be found here.  Marlon has a unique and selfless desire to help his fellow Trinidadians with transitioning to blindness with a humorous and pragmatic approach called “Dreevaying,” a term that means “Knocking About, which he does throughout his podcasts. Listen and enjoy this 40-minute presentation of a fascinating individual. Also, you can hear more about Marlon’s work as a blind police officer on the Eyes On success podcast.   You can follow us on Twitter @BlindAbilities Get our Free Blind Abilities App in the App Store!

Trinindad's street food abounds with Indian names like sahina, aloo pie and baghani. Trinny's, as Trinidadians call themselves, are born nibblers. Eating on the street is a way of life, and at times it seems as though everyone is munching away on a snack or sipping from a coconut, or lined up awaiting the next tasty tidbit. Chef Debra Sardinha-Metivier gives us a crash course in Trinidadian street food 101. For recipes, visit www.ciaprochef.com/WCA7